01-Oct-84 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #0 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 0 Today's Topics: Vandenberg Launch Viewing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Sep 84 15:59:43-PDT (Mon) To: space @ Mit-Mc.arpa From: hplabs!intelca!qantel!dual!zehntel!jackh @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Vandenberg Launch Viewing For those of you who don't belong to NSI (National Space Institute) the current (September) issue of "Space World" contains a four page article on the Vandenberg Facility, its current state of development, tentative completion date, first operation date (i.e. first launch), etc. The article essentially confirms and expands on what has already been posted on the net, plus it has a lot of pictures (surprising, considering the classified nature of most of the operations there). The article also has a sidebar on "official" viewing positions. The launch site is indeed SLC-6 (Space Launch Complex 6, pronounced "slick six") which was the old MOL progam launch pad. As contractor to the Air Force in the late '70s I got a tour of Vandenberg to see our vehicle on the pad (we launched from SLC-4E for those of you who know). Our tour guide was able, on my request, to take us up to, but not through, the gate of SLC-6. The service structure had just been rolled back (for the first time since the '60s) exposing the concrete launch tower in preparation for demolition. It was saddening to think that all of those thousands of yards of concrete, so carefully formed and looking brand new (having been protected by the service structure), had to come down without ever having had the chance to do their job! -- Jack Hagerty, Zehntel Inc. ...!ihnp4!zehntel!jackh ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 02-Oct-84 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #1 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 1 Today's Topics: Looking for INFO on Shuttle Orbit PghL5 Meeting Empty Salyut Station ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Sep 84 15:20:03-PDT (Fri) To: space @ Mit-Mc.arpa From: hplabs!amd!mikeh @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Looking for INFO on Shuttle Orbit Iam looking for information concerning the orbit the Shuttle will be in after its launch in Oct. I would like to be able to predict if and when the Shuttle will be visible over Northern California at night. The type of information I need is, the type of orbit, Inclination of orbit and the orbital period. Thanks. Mike Haley (408) 982-6555 UUCPnet: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra,intelca}!amd!mikeh ARPAnet: amd!mikeh@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 84 13:23:29 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: PghL5 Meeting To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A Marge Boberschmdit of AT&T will discuss the changes in AT&T, satellite communications, some details of the Telestar series and the affects of these on life today and in the future. Date: Wednesday, 3-Oct-84 Time: 19:30 (room open) 20:00 (meeting begins) Place: PH126B We will also be discussing some of the details of the upcoming L5 Regional Space Development Conference at the Pittsburgh Hilton, Oct 26-28. If you haven't registered yet, do it soon!!! For more info, send mail to: amon@cmu-ri-fas.arpa I will be posting a full schedule of events within the next week, but as a sample, the speakers include Mr. Terry Rockwell (Astrotech Corp), Hon Doug Walgren (Chairman House Science, Research and Technology Subcommittee), Dr. Charles Sheffield (former president of the American Astronautical Society), Dr. Philip Chapman (President of the L5 Society, Arthur D. Little Corp, ex-astronaut), Jim Muncy (Space Consultant to Dr. George Keyworth in the White House Science office), a banquet, a concert, film room, exhibits and loads of interesting people. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 1984 13:38:58EPDT From: glenn at ll-vlsi To: space@mit-mc Subject: Empty Salyut Station The Russians have announced that their cosmonauts are preparing the Salyut Space Station to operate in an unmanned automatic mode after they leave it in a few days. They are also beginning to load their Soyuz T-11 spacecraft for the return flight. There had been much speculation that the Soviets would try a crew switch on this mission to keep the Salyut continuously occupied. However in a recent interview with Roald Sagdeev, the director of the Space Research Institute in Moscow, for Sky and Telescope magazine he was asked if the about indications he gave that the Salyut would be run in an automatic mode with experiments on board it. He said point blank that this Salyut would not be permently manned because the design was too old. That would wait until their new station was put up in the near future. The behaviour of this mission agrees with his statements. One other point. Leonard David of the Nation Space Institute has pointed out that on Sept 25 the Russians had achieved 10 man-years of human activity in space (from Space Calendar, Sept 24 '84 issue). The US has less than half that and is falling further behind, even with the current large number of people orbited in a shuttle. Glenn Chapman ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 03-Oct-84 0404 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #2 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 2 Today's Topics: Halley's Comet Walter Mondale's current view of the space program Mondale toilets Soviet Salyut Mission Ends ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 2 Oct 84 10:48:14 EDT From: Dick Koolish Subject: Halley's Comet To: space@mit-mc.arpa Japanese amateur Tsutomo Seki is reported to have photographed Halley's comet, becoming the first amateur astronomer to do so. The comet is magnitude 20.5 located at RA 6h 46m, DEC +13.0. Seki is a well known comet hunter, having discovered six comets. ------------------------------ Date: 2 October 1984 02:46-EDT From: Robert E. Bruccoleri Subject: Walter Mondale's current view of the space program The following appeared in the September/October 1984 issue of the Campaign for Space Political Action Committee: "According to an article in the September issue of Discover magazine, Mondale is opposed to the space station program. And as we go to press, Mondale has announced his federal deficit reduction plan, which if enacted, would preclude any new starts for NASA during A [sic] Mondale Administration." ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 84 13:00:40 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Mondale To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A A friend of mine who worked on the Glenn campaign just gave me a recent Mondale quote that let's us all know exactly where he stands. He is reputed to have admitted that "Would cut the Space Station and Fifth Orbiter and put the money into social programs." Sandy thinks this might be enough to make her an EX-Democrat and may write him a letter telling him so. If this man PLANNED to gain the undying hatred of every member of L5 and other space organizations he really couldn't do a much better job of it! ------------------------------ Message-Id: <8410021852.AA14127@YALE-BULLDOG.YALE.ARPA> Date: Tue, 2 Oct 84 14:36:53 EDT From: Andrea Pappas Subject: toilets To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA Co Evoulution Quarterly , in 1982, (i think) had an issue devoted to space and toilets were covered. (come to think of it it might have been the space colonies issue, about 1980) also some discussion of why we unladylike types aren't allowed in space ect. (toilet article comes with diagrams and a funny picture) ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 1984 15:29:24EPDT From: glenn at ll-vlsi To: space@mit-mc Subject: Soviet Salyut Mission Ends The Russians announced at 8:00 am EDT Oct 2 that the Soyuz T-11 capsule had landed safely with the three cosmonauts from the Salyut spacestation. The total flight time was 237 days on board the station, 26 days longer than the previous record of 211 days. One other interesting first was achieved in this flight I think. The wife of one of the Cosmonauts (I think it was Kazin) had a baby while he was in orbit. Politically that may be not important but I think it is a milestone for mankind. For centuries that has happened to seamen, and now mankind is spending enough time in space that it happens to spacetravelers. Maybe in the not too distant future the first child will be born off this planet. Let us hope the Soviets are not the only ones to celebrate that future event. Glenn Chapman ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 04-Oct-84 0402 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #3 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 3 Today's Topics: Jupiter-Saturn conjunction Challenger orbital elements ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 3 Oct 84 8:57:15 EDT From: Dick Koolish Subject: Jupiter-Saturn conjunction To: space@mit-mc.arpa The next Jupiter-Saturn conjunction will be at 10h (UT) on May 31, 2000. The planets will be 1 degree 11 minutes apart in declanation and will be 17 degrees west of the sun in the morning sky. This information comes from "Astronomical Tables of the Sun, Moon and Planets" by Jean Meeus. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 84 17:18:34-PDT (Fri) To: space @ Mit-Mc.arpa From: ihnp4!mhuxj!ulysses!allegra!mouton!karn @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Challenger orbital elements Here is a predicted element set for orbit 23 of the upcoming Challenger mission. Note, however, that it was based on an October 1 launch and needs to have its RA (right ascension) of the ascending node adjusted for the actual launch time, which I believe is currently scheduled for October 4. Epoch time: 84276.85138889 Tue Oct 2 20:26:00.0 1984 UTC Inclination: 57.2007 deg RA of node: 68.7538 deg Eccentricity: 0.0010544 Arg of perigee: 346.2766 deg Mean anomaly: 14.1415 deg Mean motion: 15.97849766 rev/day Decay rate: 0.046 rev/day^2 [incredibly high! -- prk] Epoch rev: 23 Semi major axis: 6658.131 km Anom period: 90.121113 min Apogee: 287.857 km Perigee: 273.816 km Ref perigee: 2466.84893045 Tue Oct 2 20:22:27.590 1984 UTC The high inclination of this mission will make the orbiter visible at much higher latitudes than most shuttle missions. It will also make it possible for more amateurs to receive the 435 mhz transmissions of a Getaway Special experiment that will be mounted in the cargo bay. Tracking the shuttle, however, has always proven to be extremely difficult due to the unpredictable drag effects of the low orbit and the constant perturbations of maneuvering rockets. As we found with STS-9, predictions made from element sets which were only a day old could be off by minutes. Phil Karn ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 05-Oct-84 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #4 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 4 Today's Topics: Re: Challenger orbital elements Shuttle Radar Study Re: Women space walkers Passengers in Space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Sep 84 17:42:00-PDT (Sun) To: space @ Mit-Mc.arpa From: decvax!mcnc!akgua!sol1!s170 @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Challenger orbital elements In reference to the orbital element state-vector, does someone have an easily transportable algorithm (or program, even) that will give longitude/ latitude predictions, visibility/altazimuth, etc? I know I'm asking a lot, but it sure would be neat. I know the ham elements out there must have some such thing, but I haven't subscribed to QST in some time, now. Anybody seen anything like it? I have a PC-compatible, Turbo Pascal, and even (choke, gag!) MS Basic. Thanx for listening (reading?). Russ Schnapp (...akgua!sol1!s170) ------------------------------ Date: 4 Oct 84 2126 PDT From: Ron Goldman Subject: Shuttle Radar Study To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA a208 1113 03 Oct 84 AM-Shuttle Radar, Bjt,0655 Space Shuttle Radar To Seek Lost Cities, Oil Spills, Icebergs By LEE SIEGEL AP Science Writer PASADENA, Calif. (AP) - When the shuttle Challenger soars into space Friday it will carry a radar camera that scientists hope will detect ancient lost cities, icebergs, oil spills and forests damaged by acid rain. ''It's very important because it's going to help us understand our environment and the processes shaping our environment,'' said Charles Elachi, the Jet Propulsion Laboratory physicist heading the 13-nation project for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. ''. . . This experiment is part of a long-term project to assess how well we can use imaging (picture-making) radar from satellites to observe processes on land and the dynamics of the ocean surface.'' Known as Shuttle Imaging Radar-B, or SIR-B, the device's 35-by-7-foot antenna will be aimed at Earth from Challenger's open cargo bay for 50 hours during the eight-day shuttle flight. The antenna will beam radar microwaves at the planet's surface, record the echoes and relay them via satellite to Earth. Because the radar will scan 18 million square miles - about a fourth of the planet's landmass and 5 percent of its total surface, including oceans - it will take two years to convert all the data into black-and-white pictures, Elachi said. SIR-B is a descendant of the Seasat satellite, launched in 1978, and SIR-A, which flew aboard a shuttle in November 1981. Seasat was designed to map ocean currents, tides, temperatures and wave heights, but surprised scientists by revealing hidden features on land. SIR-A revealed ancient, dry riverbeds buried beneath the sands of the eastern Sahara in Egypt and Sudan. The U.S. Geological Survey will use SIR-B to map details of these ancient rivers ''and identify potential sites of prehistoric human habitation'' in the eastern Sahara, said Jet Propulsion Laboratory spokeswoman Mary Beth Murrill. USGS researchers also will seek evidence of lost cities in the foothills of the Peruvian Andes. A Swedish scientist hopes to discover Nordic ruins from the Middle Ages on Oland Island in the Baltic Sea, while a Los Angeles documentary filmmaker wants to uncover traces of the 2,000-year-old lost city of Ubar in the Persian Gulf state of Oman. Radar penetrates clouds, so a Canadian scientist will scan the ocean off Labrador to determine if the radar can help locate and track icebergs, which pose a hazard to oil drilling in the area, Ms. Murrill said. Japanese and West German scientists will simulate oil spills by dumping a non-polluting, rapidly evaporating alcohol in the Pacific Ocean and North Sea while SIR-B orbits overhead to see if the radar can detect man-made pollution. Ocean oil spills reduce the ''roughness'' of the sea surface, so they appear as dark areas on radar images. Rain forests in Bangladesh are the target of a study by Marc Imhoff, a NASA researcher in Maryland. He wants to know if radar will help him locate areas of standing water - which serve as mosquito breeding grounds - hidden beneath the forest canopy. ''If successful,'' Ms. Murrill said, ''the result of Imhoff's investigation could be used to develop improved techniques for malaria control and eradication in tropical areas.'' A West German scientist plans to determine if variations in radar images of evergreen forests in Germany can be used to show which areas have been damaged by acid rain. Other SIR-B experiments include using radar images to evaluate the earthquake potential of faults, locate groundwater supplies, monitor worldwide rainfall, determine how well crops are growing, create topographic maps, analyze Hawaii's lava flows, study ocean waves that threaten shipping, and study deserts in California, China and Australia. The radar's findings also may be useful in exploring other planets, particularly Venus, the target of the Venus Radar Mapper to be launched in 1988. For example, a Brown University scientist will use SIR-B's images to study meteor craters in Canada and develop criteria for recognizing such craters on Venus. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 84 12:29:30-PDT (Tue) To: space @ Mit-Mc.arpa From: hplabs!ames!al @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Women space walkers Whatever the Wall Street Journal may say, the next STS flight features a woman space walker in the schedule. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 84 20:43:38-PDT (Tue) To: space @ Mit-Mc.arpa From: decvax!cca!ima!haddock!jimc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Passengers in Space NASA has recently announced that a passenger will be flying on the shuttle some time in the period from fall '85 to spring '86. According to this month's LIFE magazine, this passenger will be a teacher and will not be chosen from anyone famous. In the future, the passengers will be chosen from a broader and broader set of categories. LIFE's write-up is quite good -- I recommend it. Jim Campbell INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation Boston Technical Office ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 06-Oct-84 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #5 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 5 Today's Topics: Women Space Walkers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Oct 1984 18:09:03EPDT From: glenn at ll-vlsi To: space@mit-mc Subject: Women Space Walkers While it may not have been clear from my note on Sept 28 Space Digest the Wall Street Journal article made it very clear that NASA intended to have some women spacewalkers. However it was applying restrictions to them that it did not to the men. When 63% of the women astronauts cannot wear a suit because NASA did not buy a size range which fit them, while 100% of the men could do EVA's that is not very fair. It certainly prejudges the decision of who could do the best job on an EVA when NASA knows it would have to buy a space suit if it choose one of those suitless women. Oh yes the current flight will have Kathleen Sullivan do a walk in space. On the other hand there are 8 flights over the next 15 months which have women on board, with three EVA's scheduled during them. In none of those missions is a women doing work out in space. Beyond that I have not seen the mission assignments. It certainly does not seem that NASA wants to appear to be unbiased. Glenn Chapman ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 07-Oct-84 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #6 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 6 Today's Topics: Re: Halley's Comet ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Oct 84 13:12:39-PDT (Fri) To: space @ Mit-Mc.arpa From: hplabs!nsc!voder!gino @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Halley's Comet I would like to take this opportunity to bring up, as I do every 75 or 76 years, that the name Halley rhymes with alley; the first syllable is NOT hail. Obsessively compulsively yours, -- Gene E. Bloch (...!nsc!voder!gino) ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 08-Oct-84 0406 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #7 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 7 Today's Topics: Off to see the wizzard(s) Tuto the Two Toed Space Sloth Robot Countdown begins Re: Passengers in Space Re: SPACE Digest V5 #6 Re: none ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Oct 84 9:04:15-PDT (Fri) To: space @ Mit-Mc.arpa From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-samuri!bluejay @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Off to see the wizzard(s) [Cleared as filed.] I'm planning a trip to see the Kennedy Space Center in Florida sometime in November. Does anybody have any advice, tips, etc.. on where to fly (small, single_engine plane) into, stay, how to get around, things to see, things _not_ to see, etc. ? Thanks in advance for any information. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >From the flapping feathers of | The above text does not in any ...decwrl!rhea!raven1!Bluejay | way represent the views, thoughts, or ...decwrl!rhea!samuri!Bluejay | or anything else of any person, or on the DEC Enet, | institution, organization, Raven1::Bluejay | company, or sentient being, Samuri::Bluejay | other than [perhaps] myself. "We can be free. We can learn to fly!" ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 84 14:54:16-PDT (Tue) To: space @ Mit-Mc.arpa From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!ariel!hou5f!hou5e!hou5d!hou5a!trc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Tuto the Two Toed Space Sloth Robot The Two-toed Space Sloth It seems possible to do "space construction on a budget", by use of a tele-operated robot with minimal local intelligence. The following is an example of a special class of robot, used mainly for working on space commercial/industrial packages. The two-toed space sloth gets its name from its two "gripper toes". Rather than mounting these on a complex "leg", they would simply be tethered to the robot by cables that could be reeled in or out. These toes would be designed to grip special "toe-holds", but should be able to grip to edges of materials as well - simply to provide an emergency capability. They might be simple clips, or be a servo- actuated. To move over a package, the robot would normally grab one toe with its arm-hand, attach the toe to a toe hold, push off a bit, then reel in the toe while reeling out its other toe. Reeling in the toe and locking it down provides a secure base for leverage. The arm could be used to help guide the movement. [I am assuming here that the arm(s) would be relatively weak, though a hand (or a hand attachment) might be quite strong. Arms are used mainly for positioning stuff, and movement in space can be done with quite little strength.] For propulsion between packages, Tuto (Two-toe) would use "tether guidance - hop or pull" Essentially, the robot pushes off, then controls its flight direction and stops using the cables. The cables might also be used as a control signal path, for telling the robot what to do, and for sending back the robot's data, such as slow scan TV from its "eye". This "jump unit" might be a separate segment from the rest, so that it doesnt encumber the robot while it works. It would have a single toe to grab the package and hold on, while the robot steps off (keeping one toe on a toe hold on the jump unit, of course) onto the package. The main direction of flight would be set by aiming a launching platform before jumping. Then in-flight adjustments could be made by having three or four cables, and letting several reel out slower than the others. This would be fairly easy to control, since there would have to be motors to provide momentum to the cable as it is reeled out. Packages could simply be "dumped" with low relative velocity into orbit near the robot's base. The twotoe would jump out, and match the package's velocity more precisely by pulling on its cable, or by transferring velocity by bumping into it. For larger increments in velocity, it might toss off a mass that is also tethered to the central unit. Probably this would be a routine task, as packages slowly drift apart. Or, they might each have a cable to attach to the central station. The point of all this jumping, tossing, and pulling, is that it can be done mechanically, using electric power, which should be abundant, and without any non-reusable rocket fuels. The reason for using "toes, tethers and reels" is to avoid having many complex arms or legs, as well as to avoid accidentally "falling off". The reason for teleoperation is simply to avoid having to spend time developing "AI" when there is a plentiful source of cheap or *volunteer* "I" on earth, and to avoid the terrific expense of moving that "I" into space and taking care of it while there. Robots can live on just electricity - humans cant. Plus, (and here is where the "sloth" part comes in), a Tuto can get by on a relative trickle of electricity that is stored up over time - allowing smaller solar panels. It would simply sit idle for long periods of time, soaking up solar power. Meanwhile, on earth, its operators could plan its next move. A space station built along these lines would look like a collection of shuttle pallet shaped blocks in a spider's web. At the central block would be the robot communications relay, storage, the jump reels, etc. I guess that designing, building, and lofting such a twotoe spacloth and base would only cost a couple tens of millions for the first, and maybe under a million for the second - depending on how well the designers keep to a goal of low cost for the system. It would only take up a small part of a shuttle payload. By the way - for those of you who are "human chauvinists", and want to put Men out there instead of robots - consider this: Are you more likely to be one of the few who get to go into space, or of the many who would get to control a Tuto? And can you get more space structures built by sending up a few Men, or a lot of Tutoes? I think that by going with Tutoes, or something equivalent, we'll bring down the costs of building space structures, which will encourage building more of them, and in turn, lead to a need for some humans "on site". Further, the increased building will require either shipping lots of material from earth, which bodes well for improved lifting-craft; or use of lunar material, which cannot be easily done with teleoperated robots. Either way, it becomes easier for humans to get into space. Tom Craver hou5a!trc ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 84 7:17:14-PDT (Wed) To: space @ Mit-Mc.arpa From: ihnp4!ihlts!rjnoe @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Countdown begins The countdown for Friday's launch of the shuttle Challenger began at 1 a.m. EDT Wednesday morning. A backlog of paperwork from the short interval since the previous launch temporarily threatened to delay the launch but NASA appears confident that all can be cleared up in time. -- Roger Noe ihnp4!ihlts!rjnoe ------------------------------ Date: 4 Oct 84 18:11:06-PDT (Thu) To: space @ Mit-Mc.arpa From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!timeinc!timeb!dwight @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Passengers in Space > LIFE's writeup was quite good. I recommend it. Of course. Thanks for the plug! -- --Dwight Ernest KA2CNN \ Usenet:...vax135!timeinc!dwight Time Inc. Editorial Technology Group, New York City Voice: (212) 554-5061 \ Compuserve: 70210,523 \ EIES: 1228 Telemail: EDPISG/TIMEINC \ MCI: DERNEST ------------------------------ Date: 7 Oct 1984 1903 PDT From: Art Zygielbaum Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #6 To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC Reply-To: AIZ@JPL-VLSI.ARPA I've been told that the correct pronunciation is probably "Hauley!" You takes your pick! Art Zygielbaum ------ ------------------------------ Date: 5 Oct 84 17:46:00-PDT (Fri) To: space @ Mit-Mc.arpa From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!acf4!greenber @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: none <> The first time that a man is in space for about a year and his wife has a child....Now that is what the seafarers of old experienced (:-) Ross M. Greenberg @ NYU ----> allegra!cmcl2!acf4!greenber <---- ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 09-Oct-84 0431 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #8 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 8 Today's Topics: Clarification on "Hauley" Challenger lifts off Blast off, you Space Hosers! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Oct 1984 0843 PDT From: Art Zygielbaum Subject: Clarification on "Hauley" To: space-enthusiasts@mit-mc Reply-To: AIZ@JPL-VLSI.ARPA My earlier message probably appeared out of context since I forgot to mention the subject. On the issue of how to pronounce "Halley" of Halley's comment, I've been told that the original pronounciation was probably "Hauley." What's in a name? It reminds me of when Bruce Murray (late of JPL) was debating the pronounciation of the name of Jupiter's moon Io. Some people were arguing that it should be "ee-oh," others that it should be "eye-oh." Bruce settled the argument by saying, that if you can't decide how to say it, just spell it. Art Zygielbaum ------ ------------------------------ Date: 5 Oct 84 6:52:48-PDT (Fri) To: space @ Mit-Mc.arpa From: ihnp4!ihlts!rjnoe @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Challenger lifts off Space shuttle mission 41-G began on time at 7:03 a.m. EDT today, October 5, when Challenger and its crew of seven lifted off in a flawless launch into the predawn sky over Kennedy Space Center. The mission was proceeding according to or ahead of schedule. The ERBS (Earth Radiation Budget Satellite) is scheduled to be deployed from Challenger's cargo bay later today. -- Roger Noe ihnp4!ihlts!rjnoe ------------------------------ Date: 11 Oct 84 22:56:21-EDT (Thu) To: space @ Mit-Mc.arpa From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!wanttaja @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Blast off, you Space Hosers! I swear this is absolutely true. I was watching the news on CBUT, Vancouver, B.C. tonight, and they had a background piece on Mark Garneau, the first Canadian into orbit. The voiceover introduced the piece as follows: "The Right Stuff, Eh? The first Canadian in orbit..." Ron Wanttaja (ssc-vax!wanttaja) "The good ship Caledonia finally docked in Porthsmouth, full of dead horses and sick Canadians..." ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 10-Oct-84 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #9 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 9 Today's Topics: 41-G LAUNCH 41-G activities ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Oct 84 14:32 PDT From: ANDERSON.ES@XEROX.ARPA Subject: 41-G LAUNCH To: Space@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: Anderson.ES@XEROX.ARPA ReplyTo: Anderson I just got back from the Kennedy Space Center where we watched the launch of 41-G last Friday. We were in the VIP grandstands on KSC which is about 3 miles from the pad. Also in the stands were Billy Jean King (who was invited by Sally Ride), Judith Resnick, and other dignitaries. The launch was simply fantastic. The sun was still rising at launch time and gave a beautiful golden glow to the whole launch site. The flame was very, very bright. It seemed much brighter than the morning sun. The ground shook very noticebly after several seconds from the thunder of the engines which sounded like thousands of very loud rapid fire machine guns and firecrackers going off. The plume of smoke rising from the pad was brown for the first few hundred feet and then turned into red, orange, white, blue, and purple at different heights and remained that way for many minutes. Anyone know what the different colors mean? We could see the SRBs with the faltering flames falling to earth with our bare eyes. The shuttle's flames stayed extremely bright all the way up until it was just a speck of bright light in the sky soaring away from the falling SRBs. It was a challenge trying to switch between camera, binoculars, and bare eyes. I used a 50-250mm zoom lens on my camera and tripod and the shuttle filled up the viewfinder very well at 250. The mosquitos were not very bad at all. We didn't bring any repellant, but only a few minor swats were necessary. We also got to see the caravan carrying the astronauts to the pad as security stopped all vehicles on the road to let them pass. We also saw the IMAX movie "Hail! Columbia." Very impressive. The screen was 51/2 stories high with a resounding sound system. On the flight back to LAX, the person sitting next to me was the manager of Shuttle Ground Support at Vandenberg. He works for Lockheed and is basically responsible for the launch tower. He was in the firing room at KSC during the launch to watch and learn how Kennendy handles their launches in preparation for the first Vandenberg launch on 10-15-85. He came away feeling that they have a lot of work ahead and a lot to learn at Vandenberg. He inspected the pad 2 hours after launch and was impressed by the lack of damage. He mentioned that the firing room, although exciting, is probably the worst place to 'view' a launch from due to there being only one or two small windows. He mentioned one funny anecdote. During the hatch closing operation after the astronauts had entered the shuttle, there was a hatch closure continuity failure which threatened to delay the launch. The failure was something like a car door not being closed all the way and the sensor telling you so. It was finally corrected and reported over voice communications as something like, "We have reinitiated the orbitor personnel closure hatch procedures to meet nominal resurfacing torque specifications"; standard NASA jargon for, "We opened the hatch and slammed it shut harder." Craig Anderson Xerox Corp. 213-536-7299 ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 84 6:58:20-PDT (Mon) To: space @ Mit-Mc.arpa From: ihnp4!ihlts!rjnoe @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: 41-G activities Challenger suffered only minor damage from Friday's launch, apparently limited to some thermal tiles. The Earth Radiation Budget Satellite was deployed almost three hours later than planned Friday when its solar panels at first failed to open because of the cold. Sally Ride used the Canadarm to keep it in the sunlight awhile and it now appears healthy. It should reach its final orbit in about a week. The Shuttle Imaging Radars (SIRs) were activated and working properly but a Ku band antenna would not lock on to a data relay satellite for transmitting the information to Earth. Data was stored on high speed tape on board Challenger until the antenna was locked into position. Data will now be transferred to the satellite by using the whole orbiter to point the antenna. (Sounds to me a lot like 2001. This is the 13th shuttle flight, you know. Too bad it's not also Discovery.) There were a couple smaller problems with antennae in the cargo bay which were solved using the robot arm. Kathryn Sullivan and David Leestma (not Leetsma) have remotely transferred some hydrazine fuel between tanks in the cargo bay but their EVA will be delayed two days until Thursday. Landing is still scheduled for Saturday afternoon at Cape Canaveral but tropical depression Josephine is slowly moving toward Florida. -- Roger Noe ihnp4!ihlts!rjnoe ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 11-Oct-84 0406 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #10 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 10 Today's Topics: TDRS malfunction Re: No joy? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Oct 84 13:44:43-PDT (Mon) To: space @ Mit-Mc.arpa From: ihnp4!ihlts!rjnoe @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: TDRS malfunction Apparently there has been a malfunction of TDRS-A, the Tracking and Data Relay Satellite deployed from Challenger in April, 1983. This may be due to a solar flare. Details are very sketchy at the moment. The problem this presents to the current mission is it makes transmission of data gathered by instruments aboard Challenger very difficult. A limited amount of tape remains on board, but if they cannot reestablish communications with TDRS, much Earth observation data will be lost. The fuel transfer EVA (space walk) is still planned for 11:00 a.m. EDT Thursday. -- Roger Noe ihnp4!ihlts!rjnoe ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 84 20:17:51-PDT (Mon) To: space @ Mit-Mc.arpa From: ihnp4!houxm!vax135!timeinc!timeb!dwight @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: No joy? Concerning the origin of the phrase, "no joy," which I've heard on various civil aviation radio frequencies where it seems to mean, "I don't have the traffic in sight," I think it means exactly that, and that's where it has its origin... fighter pilots, reputed to be the famed macho warriors, unlike their portrayal as sensitive, caring husbands, fathers, and lovers as in "Call to Glory" (a show I enjoy a great deal, incidentally), are SUPPOSED to get a great deal of "joy," you see, upon sighting their quarry as pointed out to them by sighters and ground and airborne radar operators... therefore, from the radio call, "no joy," we can surmise they haven't sighted the b*st*rds yet. I think it's just carried over into civil aviation, where all pilots (at least those I know) enjoy emulating their heroes (in such ways as adopting a pseudo-Texan accent, like that of the hero of "Right Stuff") whether they have a military background or not. I think. --Dwight Ernest KA2CNN \ Usenet:...vax135!timeinc!dwight Time Inc. Editorial Technology Group, New York City Voice: (212) 554-5061 \ Compuserve: 70210,523 \ EIES: 1228 Telemail: EDPISG/TIMEINC \ MCI: DERNEST ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 12-Oct-84 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #11 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 11 Today's Topics: Re: No joy? Re: No joy? Space Shuttle Audio Relay Frequencies (NEW!) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Oct 84 22:14:10-PDT (Tue) To: space @ Mit-Mc.arpa From: hplabs!resonex!tggsu @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: No joy? Let's see... I think that 'No Joy' means that no target was aquired during a search operation by a fighter pilot (scenario: Ground controller: 'target .5 km ahead, angels 45'. Pilot: 'No joy'). Others that I've read about: 'Tally Ho!' - In general, used to mark fighter responsibilities among wingmen and to acknowledge an attack order. I recall that some fighter competitions were called 'tally ho' in the '60s or '70s. 'Below bingo' - condition of a thirsty fighter prior to air refueling. (does anyone know what 'bingo' means?). Does anyone else here watch ABC's "Call to Glory" TV show? They really seem to be making an effort at a quality series about life in the USAF test area in the '60s. Even though you almost always have to sit through each show's 'human interest' side, the flying and technical side of the series is miles (clicks?) ahead of anything recent. Come to think of it, even the 'human interest' side of each show is better than usual for TV - problems that almost might happen to normal people in everyday life. It's also just about they only series that includes a husband/wife relationship with children and daily problems and career struggles and neighbors and plausible plot lines and... Tom Gulvin - allegra!resonex!tggsu - Resonex, Inc. - Sunnyvale CA ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 84 9:52:47-PDT (Tue) To: space @ Mit-Mc.arpa From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!markb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: No joy? In article <586@ihlts.UUCP> rjnoe@ihlts.UUCP (Roger Noe) writes: >Does anyone know the origin and meaning of the phrase "no joy"? I have heard >it now from three astronauts on separate occasions. I think I heard it also >on "Call to Glory" so I am guessing it came from military pilot jargon and >made its way into NASA. I also think it probably means "no success". If >anyone has further details on how the phrase came about, please fill me in. >Why didn't Tom Wolfe have this in "The Right Stuff"? (or did I miss it?) Probably short for "There's no joy in mudville" from the poem "Casey at the bat". Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 84 10:22:18 EDT From: Will Martin To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Space Shuttle Audio Relay Frequencies (NEW!) The enclosed message just showed up at this host, on USENET's net.ham-radio, rather late in the mission. Unfortunately for those of us who have been trying to pick up the ham-radio relay of the space shuttle audio traffic, the frequencies listed below were CHANGED from the ones which have been being used for this purpose over the last several missions! I have no idea why these changes were made, and have inquired on the ham radio group. Anyway, maybe you'll see these in time to use them for the landing. (Sigh...) ----- Forwarded message # 1: From: rjr@mgweed.UUCP (Bob Roehrig) Newsgroups: net.ham-radio Subject: arrl bulletin nr 86 (space shuttle dope) qst de k9eui hr arrl bulletin nr 86 from arrl headquarters newington ct october 4, 1984 to all radio amateurs bt the marshall space flight center amateur radio club station wa4nzd will be active during the space shuttle 41g mission. launch is scheduled for 1103 utc on october 5. operating frequencies are 3.840, 7.255, 14.270, 21.355 and 28.610 mhz. see september qst, page 46, for information about the amateur radio experiment onboard this mission ar ----- End of forwarded messages ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 13-Oct-84 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #12 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 12 Today's Topics: References on Solar Cells from Lunar materials? Re: SPACE Digest V5 #11 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Oct 84 13:29:07 EDT From: Michael Sims Subject: References on Solar Cells from Lunar materials? To: Space@MIT-MC.ARPA I am seeking references on the manufacturing of photo-electric solar cells from lunar materials. I assume that the Space Studies Institute or others would have considered the issue. Thanks, -Michael Sims ------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri 12 Oct 84 16:42:15-EDT From: Rodney A. Brooks Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #11 To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC I seem to recall "joy" bing used in the Bigglesworth books (WW1 ace). In any case its an expression I've been used to all my life growing up in Australia so I assume it has British origins. ------- ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 16-Oct-84 0432 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #13 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 13 Today's Topics: Bingo and tally ho Satalite launching Call to Glory SPACE Digest V5 #9 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message-Id: <8410140359.AA18457@HP-VENUS> Date: Sat 13 Oct 84 20:59:52-PDT From: Doug Subject: Bingo and tally ho To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC Cc: SPACE@MIT-MC Source-Info: From (or Sender) name not authenticated. "tally ho" was the opposite of "no joy", and means "target spotted". "bingo" refers to a fuel remaining/vs distance chart used to determine when the A/C must return to base (or some base). ------------------------------ Date: Mon 15 Oct 84 20:41:15-EDT From: Eric.Crane@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Satalite launching To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA Posted for a friend... :Why was the Hughes Communications Services Leasat 2 FLIPPED from the Space shuttle's last flight via a "Frisbee Launch"? I thought the Discovery could only do a deployment of any sizable mass in a 100% vertical fashion for fear of collision. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 84 22:49:36 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Call to Glory To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A They may try for some technical accuracy, but the fighter planes they used in the first movie were DEFINITELY not the century series you would have seen around a base in 1962. One might also have expected to see a Hustler or two sitting around the base. Or at LEAST one F-104 air superiority fighter (or did they all augered into the German farmland?) The U2's really were U2's though... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 1984 03:14 EDT Message-ID: From: MINSKY%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC Cc: SPACE@MIT-MC Subject: SPACE Digest V5 #9 Dear OTA, Just a note to appreciate all the man-years you've put into keeping me current with space affairs. I appreciate good editing. [Dear All, I suppose this would be a good time to point out that usually the contents of the digest are assembled automatically from daily submissions. The generally excellent content is due to the members of the list sending in interesting and informative messages. Keep up the good work! -Ted Anderson (The Moderator)] ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 17-Oct-84 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #14 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 14 Today's Topics: frisbee launches - why? U-2's The Moon and Antartica Call to Glory ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Oct 1984 0731-PDT From: Richard M. King Subject: frisbee launches - why? To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA I suspect the advantage is that they use less cargo base length. A one-inch stack of dimes contains a lot more dimes than a one-inch row of dimes. Dick ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 84 09:35:00 PDT From: WOO IL LEE Subject: U-2's To: space%mit-mc Reply-To: WOO IL LEE Re "Call to Glory"; No, the U-2's shown in that first episode are NOT 1960's machine. They showed U-2R which were produced in the mid or late 70's (sorry, I don't have my reference materials with me) and all they share with the U-2C of Gary Powers/Cuban crisis fame in the general aerodynamic configuration. Their size, weight, structure, sytems (engine ?) and wing section are completely different. Oh well, I guess this might fall under the nitpicking category, but I just couldn't help noticing it. In the same vein, they sometimes show one particular aircraft in flight, but the shots are all of DIFFERENT models of the same type (say an F-4, it metamorphoses from one second to the next from a Navy fighter into a reconnaisance machine into an Air Force fighter-bomber). And with different external stores! I suppose finding the proper film clips in the military's archives is difficult to impossible. I enjoy the flying anyway. Emilio P. Calius Stanford U. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 1984 15:02-PDT Sender: WARD@USC-ISIF.ARPA Subject: The Moon and Antartica From: Craig E. Ward To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Message-ID: <[USC-ISIF.ARPA]16-Oct-84 15:02:14.WARD> This is a summary of a review of the article "The Moon and Antarctica" by Hans Mark in the Spring 83 issue of Aerospace from the Autumn 83 issue of the Wilson Quarterly. (What a mouthful). Mark draws some very interesting parallels between the race to Antarctica and the race to the Moon and uses them to suggest a potential time frame for the development of permanent bases on the Moon. The South Pole was reached for the first time in 1911 by Norway's Roald Amundsen who beat Britain's Robert Falcon Scott by about five weeks. This race was mainly run for national prestige and because of the technical problems with getting there, official involvement declined after the initial successes. Besides this obvious political similarity, Mark lists some of the technical problems which had to be solved for the Antarctic which correspond to similar problems with getting to the Moon. Each mission requires artificial life-support systems and staging bases for support. In the case of Antarctica, it was the development of aircraft that allowed continuous human habitation (since 1942). With the shuttle program, we should be able to develop the technology and equipment necessary to reach out to the Moon, i.e. a space station and an orbital transfer vehicle that will not need to re-enter the atmosphere. As you should already know, the space station should be here by the early 1990's. Mark feels that a similar 30 year delay may be seen in Moon development but that it is likely to be quicker than that because the Moon is more exciting and important than Antarctica. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 84 10:16:47 pdt From: David Smith Message-Id: <8410161716.AA12437@HP-MARS> To: space%mc%csnet-relay.arpa@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: Call to Glory Cc: dsmith@hplabs.CSNET Source-Info: From (or Sender) name not authenticated. They may try for some technical accuracy, but the fighter planes they used in the first movie were DEFINITELY not the century series you would have seen around a base in 1962. One might also have expected to see a Hustler or two sitting around the base. Or at LEAST one F-104 air superiority fighter (or did they all augered into the German farmland?) The U2's really were U2's though... Uh, well, the U-2s they show are U-2Rs, which were definitely not around in the early sixties. The U-2R is much bigger than the A's and C's. Another annoyance was the episode about the F-13. When I saw the teasers, I expected to find out what the F-13 was and what happened to it. The footage purporting to show the F-13 actually showed an F-105. I came away wondering whether the rest of the show had anything to do with the real F-13. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 20-Oct-84 0402 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #15 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 15 Today's Topics: Shuttle launch date info please ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Oct 84 09:17 EST From: "Alexander L. Wolf" To: space%mit-mc.arpa@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: Shuttle launch date info please I know launch date information for the Shuttle has been posted before, but I've misplaced it... I'm planning on being in Florida in the middle of December; are there any flights scheduled for around then? Thanks, Alex. (Wolf.UMass-CS@CSNet-Relay) ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 21-Oct-84 0404 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #16 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 16 Today's Topics: Please remove me from this mailing list ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 20 Oct 1984 15:29 EDT Message-ID: From: CM.UROP.LEE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: space@MIT-MC subject: Please remove me from this mailing list I am reading it on a different computer. thanks, lee ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 23-Oct-84 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #17 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 17 Today's Topics: Space Development Conference Space Conference correction ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Oct 84 16:09:45 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Space Development Conference To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A 1984 L5 Regional Space Development Conference Place: Pittsburgh Hilton, next to Point State Park Host: Pittsburgh L5 ============================================================================= Friday, 26-Oct-84 Opening Session 17:00 Registration begins 18:30 Reception with cash bar 19:00 - 20:00 Opening address, Dr. Charles Sheffield 20:00 - 22:00 Filk songs by Julia Ecklar ============================================================================= Saturday, 27-Oct-84 Morning Session: Chapter workshops: Effective Chapter Organization 9:00 - 12:00 Elisa Wynn Niagara L5 Beverly Freed Pittsburgh L5 Afternoon Session: A Space Based Civilization: The Grand Design 13:00 - 14:30 Morris Hornik Space Studies Institute 14:30 - 15:30 E Doug Ward Astrotech International 15:30 - 16:30 Eric Drexler L5 Society 16:30 - 17:30 Greg Maryniak Geostar Corporation Evening Sessions: Banquet/entertainment 18:30 Banquet begins 19:00 - 20:00 Dr. Philip K. Chapman 20:00 - 21:00 Diane Ackerman poetry reading 21:00 - 22:00 SOFEX concert: Return of the Electronic Dream ============================================================================= Sunday, 28-Oct-84 Morning Session: Chapter workshops: Politics and Space 9:00 - 12:00 Jim Muncy Consultant, White House Science Office Gary Oleson DC L5 Sandy Adamson Spacepac Afternoon Session: The politics of space 13:00 - 14:00 Doug Walgren Chairman House Sci,Rsrch&Tech Subcommittee 14:00 - 15:00 Jim Muncy Consultant, White House Science Office 15:00 - 16:00 Michael Fulda Space politics and Policy 16:00 - 17:00 Walter Byrnes High Frontier: BMD ============================================================================= Dr. Sheffield, writer of science fiction and science fact, former president of the American Astronautical Society and current Vice President of Earth Sat Corporation (Satellite image processing) will open the conference on Friday night. Julia Ecklar is a well known writer of 'fiction folk' songs or filk. Morris Hornik will discuss the hardware directed research of the Space Studies Institute on mass drivers, lunar mining, solar power satellites and the rest of the grand vision. Astrotech will discuss it's future plans, including the purchase of a space shuttle. E. Doug Ward is a VP at Astrotech and has a long and distinguished career managing large aerospace projects. Eric Drexler, a member of the first Space Colony Design Summer Study and one time student of Dr. Gerard O'Neill, will discuss solar sails and asteroid mining Geostar will discuss their commercial navigation satellite system, due to launch in 1987. Morris Hornik is also the Executive Vice President of the Space Studies Institute in Princeton Dr. Phil Chapman is an employee of Arthur D. Little Corporation, An former member of the NASA astronaut corps (although he did not fly) and current President of the International L5 Society. Diane Ackerman is a published poet and a member of the Board of Directors of the Planetary Society. Her first book, 'The Planets' was checked for technical accuracy by Carl Sagan. SOFEX is a performance art group that uses their own electronic instruments, slide projectors, film, video, dancers, smoke, scents, and who knows what else... Doug Walgren is a local congressman and chairman of the House Subcommittee on Science, Research and Technology. Jim Muncy is a consultant on space to Dr. George Keyworth in the White House Science Office. Dr. Michael Fulda is a professor of Political Science at Fairmont State College in West Virginia. Walter Byrnes is a representative of General Daniel Grahams 'High Frontier' organization, the originators of the 'Star Wars' defense plan. FurtherDetails: Banquet is $18.20 and must be reserved 48 hours in advance. Call Steven Shulik, 412-381-2190 (h) or 412-434-6357 (w). All other payments may be made at the door. 3 day Fri Sat Sun concert only only only only L5 Regular member $30 $10 $15 $15 $5 L5 Student member $20 $5 $10 $10 $5 General public $45 $15 $20 $20 $5 General public, student $30 $5 $10 $10 $5 ------------------------------ Date: 22 Oct 84 16:57:20 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Space Conference correction To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A SOFEX concert is from 21:30-22:30 ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 24-Oct-84 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #18 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 18 Today's Topics: Shuttle mishap Ace Salvage Co. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- id AA06246; Tue, 23 Oct 84 09:49:37 pdt Message-Id: <8410231649.AA06246@decwrl.ARPA> Date: 23-Oct-1984 1248 From: rabahy%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (David Rabahy) To: space@mit-mc Subject: Shuttle mishap Associated Press Mon 22-OCT-1984 16:16 Shuttle Mishap Barge Carrying Space Shuttle Fuel Tank Damages Dock VANDENBERG AIR FORCE BASE, Calif. (AP) - The oceanfront dock at the new $2.5 billion space shuttle launch complex here was damaged slightly when a barge delivering a shuttle fuel tank broke loose, the Air Force said Monday. No one was injured, and the $21 million external fuel tank was not damaged. The accident did cause a six-hour delay in unloading the 154-foot-tall, 139,000-pound tank. ``This is not a high-tech sort of problem,'' Maj. Ron Peck said. ``We've been docking barges for 5,000 years now. ... It was just one of those `Whoops, here we go, plan `B' things.'' The fuel tank is to be used in ground tests prior to first shuttle launch here, scheduled for October 1985. The new complex is for high-security military shuttle flights. The ocean barge carrying the tank tied up at the base's breakwater-protected inlet at 11:18 a.m. Sunday. About 90 minutes later, the heavily ladened barge suddenly broke loose with a screech and a thud, dropping about five feet below the dock's surface. The jolting movement tore loose big timbers and a chunk of reinforced concrete from the dock, which was specially built to receive the NASA barges. The damaged timbers were part of a shelf-like ``lip'' below the dock designed to stabilize the barge. Peck said the apparent cause of the mishap was a failure by the barge to dump its ballast water quickly enough to keep the vessel level as the tide receded in brisk winds. ``It was not a major problem,'' Peck said, adding that ``we just need to replace the timbers and some minor concrete and steel work.'' ------------------------------ Date: 23 Oct 1984 0921-PDT From: Richard M. King Subject: Ace Salvage Co. To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA Does anyone know whether Western Union's insurer signed on the dotted line with NASA? When are the retrieval operations going to take place? When will they be televised? Dick ------- ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 25-Oct-84 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #19 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 19 Today's Topics: Shuttle launch schedule ---------------------------------------------------------------------- id AA11268; Wed, 24 Oct 84 08:23:30 pdt Message-Id: <8410241523.AA11268@decwrl.ARPA> Date: 24-Oct-1984 1012 From: rabahy%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (David Rabahy) To: space@mit-mc Subject: Shuttle launch schedule Associated Press Tue 23-OCT-1984 15:14 Space Shuttle Discovery Moved To Launch Pad As NASA Steps Up Flights By HOWARD BENEDICT AP Aerospace Writer CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) - The space shuttle Discovery was moved to the launch pad Tuesday to be readied for the third shuttle mission in 10 weeks - a flight in which astronauts will attempt to retrieve two satellites that were sent into faulty orbits. In line with NASA's accelerating launch schedule, Discovery will blast off Nov. 7 with a crew of five astronauts, who will also release two communications satellites into orbit. The flight will be the 14th in the shuttle program and the second for Discovery, which started its maiden mission on Aug. 30. Challenger, which returned from space on Oct. 13, is being groomed for a Dec. 8 trip. The third shuttle, Columbia, is being modified by Rockwell International in California, but it soon will rejoin the fleet to help the National Aeronautics and Space Administration handle an ambitious once-a-month launch schedule. Atlantis will join the fleet next spring, and NASA anticipates 16 missions in 1986, when a second launch pad will be ready here and a third will be operational at Vandenberg Air Force Base in Calfornia. During the eight-day November flight, the astronauts will deploy commercial communications satellites for Telesat of Canada and Hughes Communications Services Inc. Once the shuttle's cargo bay has been cleared of these payloads, astronauts Dale Gardner and Joseph Allen plan two space walks in which they will use jet-powered backpacks to fly free of the spacecraft. Their goal: to recover the Palapa 2B and Westar 6 communications satellites, which were sent into improper orbits aftr being released by another shuttle crew in February. Gardner and Allen will secure each satellite with a pole-like grappling device, moving them close enough to the shuttle to permit Anna Fisher to grasp them with the ship's 50-foot mechanical arm. Commander Rick Hauck and pilot David Walker will steer Discovery through the intricate maneuvers needed to track down the satellites, orbiting 220 miles high and 700 miles apart. The satellites originally were owned by the Indonesian government and Western Union but now are the property of insurance underwriters, which are paying NASA $5.5 million to retrieve them and return them to Earth for refurbishment. The underwriters hope to sell the refurbished payloads to recoup some of the $180 million paid in insurance premiums when the satellites fired into the wrong orbits because of faulty material in booster rocket nozzles. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 26-Oct-84 0404 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #20 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 20 Today's Topics: Space wars Shuttle crews Satellite retrieval / gateway breakage ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25-Oct-1984 0935 From: rabahy%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (David Rabahy) To: space@mit-mc Subject: Space wars Associated Press Thu 25-OCT-1984 04:32 Space Wars Book Says War in Space Could Trigger War On Earth Eds: Embargoed by source for release at 7:00 a.m. EDT By KARIN STRAND Associated Press Writer STOCKHOLM, Sweden (AP) - The science fiction image of wars confined to outer space masks the possibility that a war in space could trigger nuclear war on Earth, says a new book by a Swedish research institute. The book ``Countdown to Space War,'' published today, says there could even be a disaster by accident if enough of the sophisticated space hardware envisioned for military use were put into orbit. With military forces relying more and more on satellites as their eyes and ears, accidental damage to or the failure of a spy satellite ``could, in a crisis situation, lead to war,'' said Indian space expert Bhupendra Jasani, one of the book's authors. ``The killing of satellites that gather vital military information would make a nuclear holocaust more likely,'' he said. Jasani and Christopher Lee, defense correspondent of the British Broadcasting Corp., co-authored the book for the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, where Jasani is a research fellow. Space weapons and space-war scenarios became a topic of international interest in March 1983 with the ``Star Wars'' speech by President Reagan. He said he wanted the United States to develop technology to shoot down intercontinental ballistic missiles in flight, thus making them obsolete. Jasani told a news conference that he and Lee wrote their book in order to spread knowledge of how space is being used today and what is likely to follow in this decade. He said satellites have many positive applications ranging from weather-forecasting to monitoring peace agreements. However, he contended that three out of every four satellites have a military application. By using them for command, control, communications and intelligence, he warned, military commanders are nearing a point where they would be ``struck deaf, dumb and blind'' if the satellites failed. To avoid disaster, the authors suggested treaties banning testing or possession of antisatellite weapons, along with a declaration that neither side would be the first to use them. Also, they suggested a mandatory and detailed registration of all spacecraft, and limits on the number of military satellites a country could launch each year. They urged establishment of an international agency to ``use satellites to verify multilateral arms treaties as well as to monitor crisis areas.'' ------------------------------ Date: 25-Oct-1984 0936 From: rabahy%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (David Rabahy) To: space@mit-mc Subject: Shuttle crews Associated Press Wed 24-OCT-1984 13:16 Shuttle Crews Crew Named for Shuttle Mission SPACE CENTER, Houston (AP) - The space agency has named a five-astronaut crew for a shuttle mission scheduled for launch next August and has changed an assignment on a previously announced crew. Robert L. ``Hoot'' Gibson, who piloted the shuttle Challenger during a February flight, will command the August mission aboard the Columbia, officials at Johnson Space Center said. His pilot will be Marine Lt. Col. Charles F. Bolden Jr. Mission specialists on the flight will be Franklin R. Chang-Diaz, Steven A. Hawley and George D. Nelson. The seven-day mission is to launch two communications satellites. The shuttle will also carry a materials-processing experiment. Officials also announced Air Force Col. Roy D. Bridges Jr. has replaced S. David Griggs as pilot of an April mission. The space agency said scheduling changes had left Griggs set to be the pilot on missions only two months apart, which did not allow enough time for training. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 84 13:32:46 EDT From: Will Martin To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Satellite retrieval / gateway breakage For those interested in the satellite-retrieval process, I recommend you see if your local PBS station will broadcast the latest "Enterprise" program (this is a series of half-hour shows on various businesses). This last one was on the insurors' and underwriters' efforts to recover the two satellites lost from the shuttle flight a while back. An excellent discussion, including more technical info on the causes of the failures than I have seen anywhere else. Since many PBS stations repeat programs or tape-delay them, I thought it was worthwhile to mention this on the net. The program aired in St. Louis on Wednesday, 24 Oct. Other topics -- it appears that the same gateway breakage that has isolated the ARPA and USENET portions of many other lists has also affected SPACE. Hopefully this can be soon remedied. Until then, submitters who have both ARPA and USENET access should send postings to SPACE@MIT-MC AND post them to net.space. Will Martin USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin or ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 27-Oct-84 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #21 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 21 Today's Topics: Soviet-Cosmonauts Successful practice countdown Re: Satellite retrieval mechanism ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message-Id: <8410261428.AA00258@decwrl.ARPA> Date: 26-Oct-1984 1027 From: rabahy%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (David Rabahy) To: space@mit-mc Subject: Soviet-Cosmonauts Associated Press Thu 25-OCT-1984 14:06 Soviet-Cosmonauts Three Say They Feel Well, Discuss Work In Outer Space By NANCY TRAVER Associated Press Writer MOSCOW (AP) - Three Soviet cosmonauts who returned to Earth this month after a 237-day mission in outer space said Thursday they think of themselves as pioneers and have readjusted normally to what was called the ``crushing effects'' the Earth's gravity. Flight commander Leonid Kizim, engineer Vladimir Solovyev and medical researcher Oleg Atkov, at their first press conference since returning from space Oct. 2, discussed the effects of weightlessness and their reaction to Earth's atmosphere after their lengthy sojourn in space. The previous endurance record, also held by a Soviet crew, was 211 days in outer space. ``We think of ourselves as pioneers. The stress of our long flight was very hard on us, but we did our best to make the flight a success,'' said Kizim. The space flight began Feb. 8, and docking with the Salyut 7 spae station took place a day later. The crew's soft landing in Soviet Central Asia in the Soyuz T-11 space capsule was shown on Soviet television. After the landing, Atkov appeared jubilant and strong, while Kizim and Solovyev looked tired, weak and nearly overcome by the return to conditions of gravity. ``It is not easy to perform such long flights and then go back to Earth, with its crushing gravity. But you can see for yourself we feel well,'' said Atkov on Thursday. Soviet space officials said one of the main goals of the mission was to test the long-term effects of weightlessness. Atkov said tha the only effects the cosmonauts felt were tiredness and difficulty in standing. Atkov called weightlessness the mission's ``priority problem'' and said it limited man's willingness to make longer flights. Oleg Gazenko, member of the Soviet Academy of Sciences, said that afte testing the effects of weightlessness on the three cosmonauts, scientists concluded ``in theory'' there need be no limit to long-term work in outer space. ``This does not mean that all the problems are solved, but we can say we find no physiological factors that prevent man from staying in space for long periods,'' Gazenko said. Anatoly Alexandrov, president of the Soviet Academy of Sciences, said the establishment of a permanent platform in outer space with rotating crews was the primary goal of the Soviet Union's space program. Alexandrov declined to say when such a platform would be launched. He also dismissed the idea, suggested in a question by an East European correspondent, that the Soviet Union could send manned missions to Mars. It may indeed take about 237 days to get to Mars, Alexandrov said, but there was need for a return flight and time for research, making the mission three or even four times longer and hence not feasible at the moment, he said. Konstantin Feoktistov, another member of the Academy of Sciences, said extensive exploratory work must be done before cosmonauts can begin working in open space to build large orbiting stations. He said the cosmonauts discovered the problems of working in open space during their recently completed mission, during which they repaired the Salyut 7's fuel line.Cosmonauts must anchor themselves to the space station and require special tools, he said. Under the conditions of weightlessness, they also have difficulty performing strenuous tasks, he added. The space station is now unmanned but remains in orbit. ------------------------------ Message-Id: <8410261429.AA00262@decwrl.ARPA> Date: 26-Oct-1984 1029 From: rabahy%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (David Rabahy) To: space@mit-mc Subject: Successful practice countdown Associated Press Thu 25-OCT-1984 11:50 Space Shuttle Successful Practice Countdown For Discovery's Next Launch CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) - A successful practice countdown was conducted today for the space shuttle Discovery's Nov. 7 launch on a mission to deploy two communications satellites and retrieve two others from incorrect orbits. The four men and one woman who will fly the mission climbed aboard the shuttle for the final 21/2 hours of the test, which ended at the time Discovery's rocket engines would have been ignited had the launch been real. ``Everything proceeded very well in this dress rehearsal,'' reported Jim Ball, a spokesman for the National Aeronautics and Spae Administration. ``We're now ready to proceed toward Discovery's second journey into space.'' Astronaut Rick Hauck commands the crew, which also includes pilo David Walker and mission specialists Anna Fisher, Joseph Allen and Dale Gardner. Early in the eight-day flight, the astronauts will release commercial communications satellites for Telesat of Canada and Hughes Communications Services Inc. Then Allen and Gardner, wearing jet-propelled back packs, will fly free of Discovery to recover the Palapa B2 and Westar 6 satellites, which were fired into useless orbits by faulty rockets after they were deployed by another shuttle crew last February. Insurance underwriters are paying NASA $5.5 million to retrieve the satellites and return them to Earth for refurbishment. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Oct 84 10:59:40 PDT (Friday) Subject: Re: Satellite retrieval mechanism To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: Isdale.ES@XEROX.ARPA From: Jerry The PBS "Enterprise show aired here in LA last wedensday (Oct.24) on channel 24 and was EXCELLENT!. I hope they show it again. I was interested in the "stinger" that the astronauts will use to recover the satellites. For those not familiar with it, its an assembly with a long rod that the spacewalker will insert into the satellite's rocket exhaust and then throw a lever that causes prongs to pop out from the shaft and keep the rod from being withdrawn from the satellite. It is a rather nice idea but I was wondering if the prongs were retractible? It would be a terrible mess if they weren't and something went wrong. Anybody on this list familiar with the equipment? Also aren't the satellites spinning? Do they intend to match the spin before grabing the satellite or grab it and then de-spin? Can the MMU handle such de-spin manuvers? Also the plan calls for the MMU to bring the satillites back to the shuttle and then use the arm to put them in the bay. Why not have the astronaut put it in the bay? Is this too complex a manuver? Too little space in the bay for the MMU and sattilite? ~ Jerry ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 28-Oct-84 0404 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #22 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 22 Today's Topics: More on Satellite Retrieval ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message-Id: <8410271931.AA23515@YALE-BULLDOG.YALE.ARPA> Date: 27 Oct 84 14:52:24 EDT (Sat) From: Nathaniel Mishkin Subject: More on Satellite Retrieval To: space@mit-mc While we're all wondering about some details of the satellite recovery schedule for the next shuttle mission, I'd like to add my own wonders: What are the constraints on the rendezvous? According to the PBS show, the satellites are in quite an elliptical orbit. I got the impression that the apogee of the orbit is well higher than the maximum possible shuttle apogee. So presumably they have to time the rendezvous so that the shuttle meets the satellite when the satellite is at a low point in its orbit. How long do the astronauts have before the satellite drifts too far away? How elliptical can the shuttle's orbit be made? How much force needs to be applied to the satellite to get it into the shuttle bay? (After all, it DID fire an engine so it does have some momentum that has to be overcome, right? My physics is, er, a bit rusty.) How dangerous is all this? I mean, in the most recent shuttle mission during the refueling experiment people commented on the "danger" of dealing with the fuel in that environment. Mightn't there be some unexpended fuel sitting in the satellite's booster? Would you want to be staring down the gullet of an engine that didn't behave as expected in the first place? -- Nat ------- ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 29-Oct-84 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #23 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 23 Today's Topics: Re: satellite recovery Reusing satellites ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Oct 84 12:38:00 PST From: WOO IL LEE Subject: Re: satellite recovery To: space%mit-mc Reply-To: WOO IL LEE A question was raised recently about the remaining fuel in Palapa & Westar. Please note that the fuel-transfer experiment in the last Shuttle mission used liquids. That is because the idea is to refill the attitude control system tanks. Attitude control thrusters are always, as far as I know, liquid systems. That's due to the need to switch them on and off, which can't be done with solids. The Thiokol engine is a solid. Its igniters,which are one-shot affairs, have already been used up. Furthermore, the failure mode, as described in most reports, involves the structural failure of the nozzle throat area. The nozzle portion downstream of this point was blown away, so even if some other mechanism were to produce ignition condition, chamber pressure conditions would make it impossible to complete the ignition process and reach sustained combustion. As for the orbital mismatch between the Shuttle and the satellites, I understand that they are planning to use the attitude- control thrusters to reduce and circularize their orbits. Maybe they can use them to kill the spin too, as with the Orbiting Obsevatory? Does anybody have some accurate information? Emilio P. Calius Stanford Univ. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Oct 84 13:01:00 PST From: WOO IL LEE Subject: Reusing satellites To: space%mit-mc Reply-To: WOO IL LEE By the way, the followin thought just hit me! If this mission is succesful, this will be the FIRST TIME EVER that a spacecraft has bee returned to Earth to prepare it to fly ANOTHER mission. And these satelli- tes weren't even designed for orbital servicing (after all they were supposed to go to GEO, and it will be a few years before we service that one regularly). I think we are going to learn all kinds of interesting things when the Hughes engineers try to re- furbish them. For example, are they going to replace the hydrazine tanks or try to refill them? Will they find some new effects of the Earth environment on systems that have already been operating in space? Any thoughts? Emilio P. Calius Stanford Univ. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 30-Oct-84 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #24 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 24 Today's Topics: Carl Sagan supports Mondale Palapa Recovery Techniques Retry - "first spacecraft to ..."? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Oct 84 1248 PST From: Robert Maas To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA (I saw an AP story in the Peninsula Times-Tribune which used the cute phrase "Tip of the asteroid" to compare 3 billion dollars per year currently earned from communication satellites with hundreds of billions of dollars earned from space by the year 2010. I then tried to retrieve that story from the AP archive here, but couldn't find it. I found this instead.) a017 0007 29 Oct 84 PM-Lunar Conference, Bjt,0544 Scientists Gathering to Discuss Mankind's Return to the Moon Eds: Prenoon EST lead likely Eds: Updates with opening of conference By HARRY F. ROSENTHAL Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON (AP) - Although the United States is only barely embarked on building a space station, several scientists and engineers gathered today to discuss space projects to follow - particularly the establishment of a permanent base on the moon. ''The lunar base is one of the more obvious of the goals we can reach,'' George A. Keyworth, President Reagan's science adviser, told the opening of the three-day conference. He said that before such a project is started decisions must be made on where it will lead and why. ''Remember, much of the momentum of our space program was lost after Apollo because we treated the moon as an end to itself,'' Keyworth said. Walter Hickel, secretary of the interior in the Nixon administration and a former governor of Alaska, called the Apollo moon missions a ''glorious elevation of the human spirit in our society,'' and added that ''that kind of inspiration doesn't come along very often.'' ''A return to the moon would be a rational extension of our program to expand human activities in space,'' said James M. Beggs, the head of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. He said that a generation of people who have grown up in the space age will be in a decision-making role and ''they will be expecting benefits and pragmatic results'' from space ventures. He forecast that it is highly likely that in the next 25 years the United States will return to the moon. ''We will do so,'' he said, ''not only to mine its oxygen-rich rocks and other resources, but to establish an outpost for further exploration and expansion of human activities in the solar system, in particular, on Mars and the near-Earth asteroids.'' The symposium, sponsored by NASA, is being held at the National Academy of Sciences. It is part of an effort to decide the direction of space exploration after an $8 billion permanent manned station is put in orbit around 1992. The space station, declared a national goal by President Reagan, is only in the preliminary design stage now. Other speakers scheduled for the opening session were George Keyworth, the president's science adviser; Walter Hickel, former secretary of Interior; Harrison Schmitt, a moon-walking astronaut and former senator; and Arthur Kantrowitz, a physicist and professor of engineering at Dartmouth College. Last April, a small working group met in Los Alamos, N.M., and examined the unique scientific experiments that could be carried out at a lunar base, the potential development of the moon's resources for industrial and space transportation; the problems of man's living and working on the moon; the technological and scientific requirements for a lunar base, and the economic, political and legal problems that would be faced. The group termed industrial development ''a compelling component of a lunar base,'' adding: ''The first base could be mainly a demonstration of industrial promise. It is an excellent arena in which to test our faith in our ability to adapt the resources of space for our needs in space.'' Twelve American astronauts walked on the moon during the Apollo program of the late 1960s and early 1970s. The last of those missions, Apollo 17, was in December 1972 and no human has been on the moon since. ''A whole generation of people is coming of age, not only in the United States, but around the world, who are barely able to remember that it was once thought impossible to go to the moon,'' said Beggs. ''We now know that we can get there. The question is, what should we be doing if we establish permanent roots there, to make our presence most productive and beneficial to mankind?'' Beggs said he hoped America's friends and allies will join in the space station effort and lay the groundwork for further international cooperation. ''An internationally developed lunar base,'' he said, ''might even prove an irresistable lure to the Soviets.'' The Soviets have said that once they have developed a permanent space station, they would like to use it as a jumping off place to establish a research base on the moon. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Oct 1984 17:46-EST From: Jon.Webb@CMU-CS-IUS2.ARPA Subject: Carl Sagan supports Mondale To: Space@MC Message-Id: <467937962/webb@CMU-CS-IUS2> I just heard on National Public Radio that Carl Sagan has begun a 12-city tour to support Walter Mondale for President. He's doing this to stop Reagan's "Star Wars" plan. I think this should give pause to anyone considering voting against Mondale because of his generally negative attitude on space development. Sagan is clearly supportive of space development, and the fact that he's willing to support Mondale shows he thinks stopping the dangerous "Star Wars" plan is more important than NASA getting a few more bucks to develop space weapons. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 84 20:31:11 EST From: Joe Pistritto To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Palapa Recovery Techniques Yes, the attitude control thrusters will be used to de-spin the Palapa satellite and its lost brother. As a matter of fact, this has already been accomplished, I believe. The thrusters will be of course, deactivated from performing ANY control functions when the orbiter approaches the satellites. The spin rate at contact will be 1 RPM or less. (IT can't be zero, or the satellites would start pitching around, etc. and would require constant thruster firings to maintain a stable attitude). The remaining spin will be killed by the astronaut after he has grappled the satellite. Note that the astronaut will approach from along the spin axis this time, inserting an expandable probe into the solid rocket motor nozzle of the satellite. (Yes, NASA DOES learn from its almost-mistakes, (ie. Solar Max)) -JCP- ------------------------------ Date: 30 Oct 84 0107 PST From: Robert Maas Subject: Retry - "first spacecraft to ..."? To: lee@SU-STAR.ARPA CC: space@MIT-MC.ARPA [Retry, SU-Ethernet and/or SCORE mailbridge was down when I tried earlier] Date: 29 Oct 1984 1823-PST Reply-to:REM@MIT-MC Subject: Returning spacecraft to fly again? To: lee%su-star@SCORE cc: space%mit-mc@SCORE Date: 28 Oct 84 13:01:00 PST From: WOO IL LEE By the way, the followin thought just hit me! If this mission is succesful, this will be the FIRST TIME EVER that a spacecraft has bee returned to Earth to prepare it to fly ANOTHER mission. You're forgetting the obvious!! The STS orbiters have been returned to Earth to fly another mission. Perhaps you meant to say UNMANNED spacecraft? ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 31-Oct-84 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #25 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 25 Today's Topics: Space telescope Lunar conference Teacher-Space Shuttle Re: Carl Sagan supports Mondale "first spacecraft to ..." re: Carl Sagan supports Mondale ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message-Id: <8410301631.AA21391@decwrl.ARPA> Date: 30-Oct-1984 1129 From: rabahy%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (David Rabahy) To: space@mit-mc Subject: Space telescope Associated Press Tue 30-OCT-1984 00:05 Space Telescope Late, Over Budget, Oversized, Space Telescope Leaves Connecticut DANBURY, Conn. (AP) - Oversized and over its budget, a giant telscope began its journey to California on Monday, where it is schduled to be installed in a spacecraft and launched by a space shuttle in the summer of 1986. State police escorted the telescope, which rode on a flatbed truck, to Stewart Air Force Base in Newburgh, N.Y., on the first leg of its trip. Aside from some minor traffic problems caused partially by the load's 16-foot width, it arrived without incident. From the Air Force base, it is scheduled to be flown to the Lockheed Corp. in Sunnyvale, Calif., and installed on a Lockheed-built spacecraft. The space telescope, built by Perkin Elmer Corp., had been delayed for more than a year and cost about $600 million more than anticipated. Originally budgeted at $475 million, costs are projected to reach about $1.2 billion by the time the telescope is launched. As costs escalated and the project fell behind schedule, Congress and the National Aeronautics and Space Administration investigated. But NASA finally sided with Perkin-Elmer, saying it had underestimated the difficulty of building such an instrument. Built at a Perkin-Elmer Corp.'s optical division plant in Danbury, the telescope was designed to observe objects seven times farther away than telescopes on Earth. It is about 33 feet long and 10 feet in diameter. Once set in orbit about 310 miles above Earth, the telescope should be active for about 15 years, according to company officials. ------------------------------ Message-Id: <8410301644.AA21523@decwrl.ARPA> Date: 30-Oct-1984 1133 From: rabahy%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (David Rabahy) To: space@mit-mc Subject: Lunar conference Associated Press Mon 29-OCT-1984 15:41 Lunar Conference Moon-Walker Schmitt Suggests Mars Expedition By HARRY F. ROSENTHAL Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON (AP) - While other speakers at a conference of engineers and scientists spoke Monday of establishing a permanent base on the moon, a former moon-walking astronaut brought up what he thinks is the ``ultimate rationale'' for such a settlement: to go to Mars. Harrison Schmitt said a Soviet attempt to put cosmonauts in the vicinity of Mars by October 1992, the 75th anniversary of the Bolshevik Revolution, ``is not only possible, it is highly probable.'' He said it would be sad ``if this adverse trend of political history is established in the 500th year after the discovery of America'' and suggested that the United States and Soviets ``may be able to join hands in this great adventure.'' Schmitt was an Apollo 17 crewman and later served one term as a Republican senator from New Mexico. He called a settlement on Mars ``the first great adventure for humankind'' of the next thousand years. Children now in elementary school will be ``the parents of the first Martians,'' Schmitt said. He added that a self-sustaining settlement on the moon is of importance to them because it will provide the technical and institutional basis to go to Mars ``with the purpose of establishing a permanent base on the first expedition.'' Schmitt was among the first of about 150 speakers presenting papers at a three-day conference on ``Lunar Bases and Space Activities in the 21st Century,'' sponsored by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. He spoke of an ``Earth Orbital Civilization'' that will derive its resources from lunar surface materials for both space transportation and manufacturing. ``The demonstrated fertility of the lunar soil may be the basis of an agricultural economy in space which will support both a lunar settlment as well as Earth-orbit space stations,'' he said. Once established, ``it should be possible to expand food production steaily and to recycle a large poortion of the water and nutrients.'' George A. Keyworth, President Reagan's science adviser, said ``the lunar base is one of the more obvious of the goals we can reach,'' but decisions must be made on where the project will lead, and why, before it is begun. ``Remember, much of the momentum of our space program was lost after Apollo because we treated the moon as an end to itself,'' Keyworth said. ``A return to the moon would be a rational extension of our program to expand human activities in space,'' said NASA Administrator James M. Beggs. He predicted the United States will return to the moon in the next 25 years. ``We will do so, not only to mine its oxygen-rich rocks and other resources, but to establish an outpost for further exploration and expansion of human activities in the solar system, in particular, on Mars and the near-Earth asteroids,'' Beggs said. ------------------------------ Message-Id: <8410301632.AA21398@decwrl.ARPA> Date: 30-Oct-1984 1131 From: rabahy%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (David Rabahy) To: space@mit-mc Subject: Teacher-Space Shuttle Associated Press Mon 29-OCT-1984 13:48 Teacher-Space Shuttle Eds: SUBS first two grafs to show the person selected will have normal, sted low, blood pressure, and will be first chosen from general public, sted first non-astronaut HUNTSVILLE, Ala. (AP) - The teacher chosen to fly aboard the space shuttle in 1986 will need at least five years of teaching exprience, normal blood pressure and good hearing, a NASA official says. Alan Ladwig, director of NASA's Space Flight Participation Program, said applications from interested elementary and secondary teachers will be accepted from Dec. 1 to Feb. 1. The winner, chosen from a field of 10 finalists picked on July 4, 1985, will become the first person drawn from the general public to be sent into space. President Reagan said the first such person should be a teacher. Ladwig, who previewed the requirements to a group of 40 teachers at a mock shuttle mission at the Alabama Space and Rocket Center on Saturday, said NASA would soon issue the requirements in final form. He said the winning teacher must be able to adapt to flight experience and mission activities and be willing to contract with NASA for public lectures for one year following the flight. Medical requirements include a blood pressure level less than 160 over 100 and the ability to hear whispered speech at three feet, he said. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 84 10:28:50 pst From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) Message-Id: <8410301828.AA01366@ucbkim.ARPA> To: Jon.Webb@CMU-CS-IUS2.ARPA, Space@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Re: Carl Sagan supports Mondale (1) Let us be precise. NASA isn't getting money from the Space Defense Initiative; if I'm not mistaken, that's all going to the USAF's Space Command. (2) NASA is getting money for two things: one is to develop the Shuttle, which was unarmed the last time I looked. The second is to develop the space station, which is supposed to be a civilian enterprise. Neither of these can be construed as space weapons. (3) Mondale has promised to cancel the space station and scrap the fifth orbiter; I can't believe that he'd support a moonbase, which James Beggs said earlier this week could be a joint endeavour with the Soviets. Again, neither of these projects can be construed as space weapons. Mondale can't cut space weapons from the NASA budget because there aren't any there to cut; he can -- and will, if elected -- cut civilian projects. Sagan has concluded that Mondale's position on nuclear weapons and defense systems is more important than keeping NASA alive, a reasonable enough position. There are those of us, though, who don't agree, and this too is a reasonable position. Rick. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Oct 1984 0926-PST From: Richard M. King Subject: "first spacecraft to ..." To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA A better characterization of the uniqeness of the communication satellite repair mission is that is the first time a satellite has been returned to Earth to fly another mission WITHOUT PROVISIONS DESIGNED INTO THE SATELLITE. With this characterization it will probably also be the last time. Dick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 84 14:08:45 pst From: Ross Finlayson Subject: re: Carl Sagan supports Mondale To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Sagan is clearly supportive of space development, and the fact that he's willing to support Mondale shows he thinks stopping the dangerous "Star Wars" plan is more important than NASA getting a few more bucks to develop space weapons. NASA does NOT (and I hope, will not) develop space weapons. NASA is a civilian agency. Ross. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 01-Nov-84 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #26 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 26 Today's Topics: NASA and space weapons Reagan-Satellite Teacher in space -- hearing requirement ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 31 Oct 84 08:01:11 PST (Wed) To: Ross Finlayson cc: space@mit-mc Subject: NASA and space weapons From: Martin D. Katz NASA does NOT (and I hope, will not) develop space weapons. NASA is a civilian agency. The fact that NASA is a civilian agency does not mean that they do not do research and development on weapons systems. NASA does not build space weapons, but they do deploy them (deliver them to orbit). In addition, NASA is responsible for the research leading to development of boosters, advanced aircraft (e.g. "Stealth"), etc. All such research performed by military agencies is coordinated with NASA. In addition, any major increase in military payload to orbit will mean more money to NASA (unless it all goes via military boosters). ------------------------------ Message-Id: <8410311804.AA08674@decwrl.ARPA> Date: 31-Oct-1984 1303 From: rabahy%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (David Rabahy) To: space@mit-mc Subject: Reagan-Satellite Associated Press Tue 30-OCT-1984 18:52 Reagan-Satellite Reagan Signs Legislation Easing Private Space Projects WASHINGTON (AP) - President Reagan on Tuesday signed legislation that streamlines the government approval process for private launches of space satellites. The bill puts the Transportation Department in charge of a ``one-stop shop'' for the needed approvals. The secretary must make a determination on applications within six months. In a written statement, the president said the bill will ``signal to private launch operators that this administration stands behind their efforts to open up this new area of space exploration.'' He said that the new law ``is a milestone in our efforts to address the need of private companies interested in launching payloads to have ready access to space.'' Corporations trying to orbit communications satellites could become prime customers for private launch companies since NASA plans to stop using rockets to launch satellites. NASA, which needs room on the space shuttle for Defense Department payloads and science projects, does not have room to handle the estimated 200 private communications satellite launches planned between 1986 and 1995. U.S. firms sought the legislation so they could compete with foreigners for the projected $10 billion launch business. In addition, Reagan signed a joint resolution on cooperative Eas-West space ventures. In a separate statement, Reagan said ``we are prepared to work with the Soviets on cooperation in space in programs which are mutually beneficial and productive.'' He said the United States had offered to carry out with the Soviets ``a joint simulated space rescue mission.'' ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Oct 84 13:06:52 CST From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI To: space@Mit-Mc.ARPA Subject: Teacher in space -- hearing requirement Just out of curiosity, why is "the ability to hear whispered speech at three feet" such an important requirement for the teacher to be selected as a shuttle passenger? I can think of several possible explanations: 1) So the "for real" crewmembers won't have to shout when they tell the teacher what to do ["Polish that doorknob!"]. (I recall earlier postings saying that the teacher would be expected to aid the crew by performing "general housekeeping" sorts of tasks.) 2) That poor hearing would not be important in and of itself, but it would likely be a symptom of inner-ear problems which would have adverse effects in zero-gee. 3) So that the selectee would have a better chance of being a worthwhile pro-space spokesperson in the post-flight lecture circuit, and would be able to hear questions to answer them. 4) Because all the astronauts' hearing has been completely destroyed by too much exposure to jet engine noise, and they need someone up there who can listen for leaks... (:-) [Or they want to measure what the hearing loss is for someone with good hearing exposed to a shuttle takeoff close up...] None of these really seem too likely, though #2 sounds somewhat reasonable. Any NASA type out there who can post the rationale behind that selection criterion? Regards, Will ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 02-Nov-84 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #27 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 27 Today's Topics: Space Shuttle Space-China ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message-Id: <8411011848.AA06775@decwrl.ARPA> Date: 01-Nov-1984 1347 From: rabahy%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (David Rabahy) To: space@mit-mc Subject: Space Shuttle Associated Press Wed 31-OCT-1984 09:08 Space Shuttle Discovery Ready For Flight Next Week; Challenger Has A Problem By HOWARD BENEDICT AP Aerospace Writer CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) - Space shuttle Discovery is in good shape for its second trip into orbit next week, but a thermal tile problem could delay the December flight of sister ship Challenger, launch directors report. Following a launch readiness review on Tuesday, NASA said that except for a few minor problems, Discovery is ready for liftoff Nov. 7 on a mission in which two communications satellites will be released and two others retrieved from useless orbits and returned to Earth for renovation. ``We're looking good for Nov. 7,'' said NASA spokesman Hugh Harris. There was less optimism about meeting the planned Dec. 8 launch date for Challenger. That will be the first Defense Department shuttle flight, carrying a secret military satellite. When Challenger returned to Earth after its sixth flight on Oct. 13, one tile was missing from a wing tip. Investigation showed that a compound that smooths out rough spots on the shuttle's metal surface had softened. The compound is between the metal and the tile, one of about 30,000 silicon units that protect the spaceship from re-rentry heat. Technicians removed adjacent tiles to see how widespread the prolem was and found the compound had softened beneath about 120 tiles in that area and under about 20 others elsewhere on the shuttle. The compound is not used over the entire ship, only to fill in uneven areas, NASA said the softening may have been caused by a gas used to waterproof the tiles, by the cumulative heating effect of six flights, or a combination of the two. ``We have to determine how serious the problem is and how to correct it,'' said space agency spokesman Charles Redmond. ``Discovery is not impacted, but we don't know yet about Challenger.'' Harris said that as a precaution, technicians might inspect one or two Discovery tiles that are backed by the compound. ``However, we don't feel there is any problem with Discovery,'' he said. ``We're looking at the problem as possibly being an aging process.'' Discovery has had only one space flight. ------------------------------ Message-Id: <8411011849.AA06807@decwrl.ARPA> Date: 01-Nov-1984 1349 From: rabahy%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (David Rabahy) To: space@mit-mc Subject: Space-China Associated Press Wed 31-OCT-1984 18:30 Space-China China Reserves Shuttle Space for Satellite Launches WASHINGTON (AP) - The National Aeronautics and Space Administration announced a new customer Wednesday for its satellite launch services: the government of China. After meeting with NASA administrator James M. Beggs, representatives of the Chinese Broadcasting Satellite Corporation paid the space agency $200,000 to reserve places on space shuttles in January and September 1988 for launching two direct broadcast satellites. The money is not refundable, a NASA spokesman said. The cost of the launches to the People's Republic of China was not announced. NASA earns $10 million per launch for communications satellites under its current pricing policy. The Chinese delegation is also meeting with satellite manufacturers in the United States. The visitors will be at Cape Canaveral, Fla., for the Nov. 7 launch of the space shuttle Discovery and at Mission Control in Houston four days later when the astronauts attempt to retrieve the first of two errant satellites. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 04-Nov-84 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #28 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 28 Today's Topics: 100 manned space flights Electrophoresis product spoiled ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 03 Nov 84 2232 PST From: Ross Finlayson Subject: 100 manned space flights To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA [I presume this count does not include the upcoming shuttle mission, since the article acknowledges 13 shuttle flights (Wednesday's mission will be the 14th) - Ross.] BC-MANNED-FLIGHTS 2takes (Newhouse 010) For Monday use MAN MARKS 100 FLIGHTS IN SPACE (Note to editors: Dave Dooling is science editor for the Huntsville (Ala.) Times) By DAVE DOOLING Newhouse News Service (UNDATED) One hundred times in the past quarter-century, man has left the surface of his home world in quest of the unknown beyond the sky. Ninety-seven times, humans have circled the Earth for hours or months, projecting the species far beyond its natural environment in a way that philosophers have likened to the next step in evolution. Six times, humans went to the surface of another world and returned. The current total of 100 manned space flights consists of: - Six of the U.S. Mercury series. - Six of the Soviet Vostok series. - Ten of Gemini (U.S.). - Two of Voskhod (USSR). - Fifteen of Apollo (U.S.). (This was the moon-flight series, but three trips went to Skylab and one to rendezvous with the Soviets in orbit.) - Forty-eight of Soyuz (USSR) in its two versions. - And 13 for the U.S. Space Shuttle. Perhaps the best image of humanity extended beyond its environnment, the stereotype of man in space, is that of first U.S. spacewalker Ed White floating against a black background, the Earth a curve to one side, umbilical coiled snake-like around him and his limbs slightly bent by the shape and pressure of his space suit. Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov made the first spacewalk, but pictures of him were stiff and inhibited. White is the 21st century cowboy riding the sky, his lariat floating wild. It was the Soviet Union that scored the first two psychological and technological breakthroughs in space. In 1957, the Russians orbited the first manmade satellite, Sputnik 1. In 1961, they placed the first human in orbit, Yuri Gagarin aboard Vostok 1. The greatest leap was made by the United States, placing a man on the moon in 1969. But the shock of the Soviets' placing a man in orbit before Americans even could send one on a brief lob shot aboard a Mercury space capsule led a visionary president to set a tough goal. The United States would sail across ''this new ocean,'' as John F. Kennedy called it, and place a man on the moon ''before this decade is out.'' The three-man Apollo spacecraft that had been planned for Earth orbit research was retargeted for the moon, and a two-man interim craft, Gemini, was initiated to perfect rendezvous and other techniques that would be needed for the missions. The Soviets responded, again before the United States could act, with an upgraded Vostok called Voskhod that first carried three men, then carried two and an airlock. But the value of having men in space never has gone unquestioned, and many critical voices were raised at the start and continue today with basically the same litany: Robots can do the job as well as men, and without the cost or the risk. A summer 1962 ''Review of Space Research'' by the National Academy of Sciences found: ''By his presence, man will contribute critical capabilities for scientific judgment, discrimination and analysis (especially of the total situation) which can never be accomplished by his instruments, however complex and sophisticated they become. Hence, manned exploration of space is science in space.'' But other, equally eloquent voices argued against man's presence in space, and quickly the space program was viewed as having an internal battle of manned vs. unmanned exploration. Speaking at the University of Maryland in April 1963, Phil Abelson, editor of Science magazine, said: ''What we are witnessing is the expansion of a new sophisticated form of the pre-war Public WorkPdministration. Science is being used as a 'front' for technological leaf-raking.'' Such criticism would grow louder after both U.S. and Soviet flight crews were lost in tragedies. On Jan. 27, 1967, Gus Grissom, White and Roger Chaffee were asphyxiated when fire swept through their Apollo capsule during a countdown test. On April 4 that year, cosmonaut Vladimir Komarov died when his Soyuz 1 spacecraft, tumbling out of control, became entangled in its parachute lines and crashed to Earth. Grissom, aware of the hazards, had said: ''If we die, we want people to accept it. ... The conquest of space is worth the risk.'' Both nations pressed on, and Apollo became a complete success, placing 12 men (including a geologist) on the moon and providing a cliffhanger with one mission disabled and barely making it back to Earth. In 1972, while the last Apollo mission was under way, Time magazine criticized the program's demise. Those who had opposed it were ''prisoners of limited vision who cannot comprehend, or do not care, that Neil Armstrong's step in the lunar dust will be well remembered when most of today's burning issues have become mere footnotes in history.'' Space stations became the order of the day. Apollo gave way to Skylab, and Soyuz became the servant of Salyut, comparable to Skylab but smaller. But again tragedy struck, killing three cosmonauts returning from Salyut 1 after a three-week stay. A leaky valve let all their air escape from the re-entry capsule. Again the Soviet program recovered, following with a series of space stations, the most recent and successful being Salyuts 6 and 7. As NASA started shaping its post-Apollo future, the debate on manned space flight livened again. Then-Sen. Walter F. Mondale, D-Minn., led the fight against the proposed space shuttle, saying: ''I have seen no persuasive justification for embarking upon a project of such staggering costs at a time when many of our citizens are malnourished, when our rivers and lakes are polluted, and when our cities and rural areas are decaying.'' ''I want to shift spending from space extravaganzas to needy programs,'' the late Sen. Clifford Case, R-N.J., said then. ''The space shuttle ... should not be allowed to go forward until the proper role of manned vs. unmanned exploration has received a fuller examination than it has to date.''' An opposing view came from Sen. Mike Gravel, D-Alaska. ''Future historians will smile at the irony of our situation,'' he said of the early end to Apollo. ''Immediately following the fantastic feat of sending men to the surface of the moon and back in safety, our national resolve in expanding this effort faced a mounting wave of domestic criticism. The irony of homo sapiens for the first time standing upright on his planet and not availing himself of his full ability to explore and experiment in the universe. The irony of not moving forward as aggressively as possible from a new beginning almost as fundamental as the beginning of life itself.'' Even the New York Times, which had opposed Apollo, responded favorably to the shuttle, noting it was less expensive than Apollo and not conceived in a ''beat the Russians'' atmosphere. NASA went on to build the space shuttle, the reusable spacecraft which has not flown as frequently or cheaply as the agency promised at the start, but which has done virtually everything else from hosting scientists to repairing satellites in its first 13 missions, the latest being the 100th manned space flight. RB END DOOLING (DISTRIBUTED BY THE NEW YORK TIMES NEWS SERVICE) nyt-11-02-84 1844est *************** ------------------------------ Date: 03 Nov 84 2234 PST From: Ross Finlayson Subject: Electrophoresis product spoiled To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA a255 1739 02 Nov 84 AM-Space Hormone,0378 Space Drug Contaminated, Possibly Destroyed By HARRY F. ROSENTHAL Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON (AP) - A drug created in space by America's first industry-sponsored astronaut two months ago has been contaminated and possibly destroyed, the McDonnell Douglas Corp. said Friday. The firm, which hopes some day to market the mystery drug to treat a disease affecting millions of people, did not have an explanation for the contamination but said it will use ''different procedures for sterilization of the equipment before flight.'' The drug, a hormone, was manufactured aboard the space shuttle Discovery on a flight in late August and September by Charles D. Walker, chief test engineer for a McDonnell Douglas project on making drugs in space. He used a process called electrophoresis which separates and purifies the hormone from cell culture fluids. The contamination is so bad that the material returned from space is unsuitable for testing in laboratory animals. ''McDonnell Douglas scientists are studying methods of separating the contaminants from the hormone,'' the firm said. A source in the National Aeronautics and Space Administration said it appeared ''a microbe contaminated the material'' after the shuttle landed at Edwards Air Force Base in California. The aerospace firm paid NASA $80,000 for his astronaut training. Walker's assays during the flight confirmed that the hormone was present and being collected, said McDonnell Douglas spokeswoman Susan Flowers in St. Louis. ''However, no hormone activity was detected when the material was returned to St. Louis'' after the shuttle landed in California, a McDonnell Douglas statement said. ''It is presumed that the contamination is either masking the presence of or has destroyed the hormone.'' The firm said it will ask NASA soon to allow Walker and the equipment to fly on one additional shuttle mission to recoup from the loss of the material. Walker already is scheduled to fly again in March to gather more of the drug. Even though its effort failed, the firm said it was pleased with the performance of Walker, who had to make in-flight repairs to the equipment. ''We are instituting different procedures for sterilization of the equipment before flight and lower operating temperatures are under study,'' said James P. Rose, director of the project. ''Problems of this sort are not unusual for developmental flights.'' AP-NY-11-02-84 2034EST *************** ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 05-Nov-84 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #29 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 29 Today's Topics: IEEE Transactions on Magnetics issue ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Nov 84 17:59:06 EST From: DIETZ@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: IEEE Transactions on Magnetics issue To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA The March 1984 issue of IEEE Trans. on Magnetics contains papers presented at a conference on railguns. The articles are very interesting, and show the breadth of DOD funding for railgun research. There are even some papers on a 200 m railgun for accelerating 500 kg payloads to orbital velocity. Cost: 1 billion dollars. It hasn't been built yet, of course, but I suspect it will be soon -- it would make a great weapon. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 06-Nov-84 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #30 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 30 Today's Topics: Wednesday launch Lunar Base Symposium ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message-Id: <8411051508.AA19007@decwrl.ARPA> Date: 05-Nov-1984 1008 From: rabahy%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (David Rabahy) To: space@mit-mc Subject: Wednesday launch Associated Press Mon 05-NOV-1984 03:38 Space Shuttle Eds: SUBs 6th graf pvs. ``Liftoff for...'' to CORRECT Challenger to Discovery; Picks up 7th graf ``On the...'' By HOWARD BENEDICT AP Aerospace Writer CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) - The countdown began today for Wednesday's launch of space shuttle Discovery on a mission in which astronauts will release two communications satellites and recover two others that were sent into errant orbits. ``It's an exciting mission,'' commander Rick Hauck told reporters as he and his shuttle crew arrived here Sunday to make final preparations for launch. Pointing in the direction of the launch pad, three miles away, Hauck added: ``We're looking forward to climbing into that machine in a couple days, and I guarantee you we're going to have a lot of fun. We're very excited about taking two satellites into space...and bringing back two others that have been in wayward orbits.'' The other crew members are pilot David Walker and mission specialists Anna Fisher, Joe Allen and Dale Gardner. Mrs. Fisher is the fourth American woman and the first mother named to a space flight. She and her astronaut husband Bill are parents of a year-old daughter. The countdown started at 2 a.m. EST when test conductor Jerry Crute issued the traditional ``call to stations'' that summoned crews to the launch pad and the control center. Liftoff for the 14th shuttle mission, the second for Discovery, is set for 8:18 a.m. Wednesday. The ship is to return to Earth eight days later, landing on a runway at this spaceport. On the second and third days of the flight, the astronauts will release commercial communications satellites owned by Telesat of Canada and Hughes Communications Services Inc. The deployments will empty the cargo bay, clearing the way for the retrieval of the Palapa B2 and Westar 6 satellites. These payloads were released successfully by a shuttle crew last February, but faulty booster rockets injected them into useless orbits. Hauck and Walker are to guide Discovery through a series of complex maneuvers to within 35 feet of each satellite - Palapa on the fifth day and Westar on the seventh. Allen and Gardner are to capture the satellites during two space walks expected to last six hours each. Allen will use a jet-powered back pack to fly free of the shuttle and latch onto Palapa with a pole-like grasping device. Gardner will do the same for Westar. Insurance underwriters are paying the National Aeronautics and Space Administration $5.5 million to return the satellites to Earth for refurbishment. The underwriters hope to resell the renovated satellites to recoup some of the $180 million in premiums they paid out when the payloads entered the wrong orbits. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Nov 84 18:29:42 EST From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Lunar Base Symposium To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A The sad thing about the lunar base symposium was that people like Kraft Ehricke were describing how to get back to the moon in 5 years, while NASA officials whimpered about doing it in less than 25 years. I've heard comments about the "greying of NASA". I think we should worry more about the yellowing. It is the people like Krafft who make dreams worth dedicating your life to. I find it pathetic to see what has become of the NASA that once took us to the moon in less than ten years. There is simply no way to convince me that with 20 years of advancement it would take us 25 years to get back. Only a fool, and a gutless one at that, would suggest such a thing. I am much afraid NASA is right though. THEY may not be back on the moon in 25 years. But I'll bet Rockwell or Astrotech or Boeing is... ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 07-Nov-84 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #31 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 31 Today's Topics: Meteor Shower Space Wars Replies -- (1) apollo moon (2) insurance returning satellites Space Shuttle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message-Id: <8411061748.AA09348@decwrl.ARPA> Date: 06-Nov-1984 1246 From: rabahy%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (David Rabahy) To: space@mit-mc Subject: Meteor Shower Associated Press Mon 05-NOV-1984 19:03 Meteor Shower Meteor Shower Decorates South Texas Sky EDINBURG, Texas (AP) - Streaks of light across the southern Texas sky that followed a sonic boom may have been a shower of particles from a disintegrating meteor, an astronomer said. The aerial display was reported Sunday night from San Antonio to the Rio Grande Valley. Witnesses reported hearing a sonic boom, seeing what looked like a giant fireworks display and feeling an earthquake-like tremor, said Sam Giuoco, an astronomy professor at Pan American University. The display may have been caused by a meteor that broke into several pieces as it entered the atmosphere, Giuoco said. Ed LeMaster, professor of physical science at the university, said one of his students reported seeing the display just south of McAllen. ``Nobody reports seeing it hit the ground. There were probably lots of different fragments. But the chances of finding one are very slim,'' LeMaster said. More such displays may be visible soon because Earth is between two predictable meteor showers, LeMaster said. The Orion peeked in October and the Leonid is supposed to peak Nov. 17, he said. ------------------------------ Message-Id: <8411061750.AA09403@decwrl.ARPA> Date: 06-Nov-1984 1247 From: rabahy%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (David Rabahy) To: space@mit-mc Subject: Space Wars Associated Press Mon 05-NOV-1984 16:39 Space Wars Space Center Head Says Military Will Enter Space SPACE CENTER, Houston (AP) - The world's military powers will soon turn to space for defense ``whether we want it to happen or not,'' says the director of the Johnson Space Center. Space will become the new frontier for military ventures, just as the sea and the air were, director Gerald D. Griffin told the Houston Post in an article published Monday. ``In the beginning they (air and sea) were regarded as hostile environments,'' Griffin said. ``Ultimately, both of those environments were used for two purposes; one was commerce and the other was defense. ``The fact is that space is going to be the same sort of new environment that is opened up,'' he said. ``And we've seen signs of it already.'' The first space shuttle mission solely for military purposes is set for next month, and the Reagan administration's proposed ``star wars'' space defense against nuclear missiles has been a major issue in the presidential campaign. Griffin said he doesn't know how the space program would be affcted if President Reagan is not re-elected. ``Obviously, there would be some change with any administration,'' he said. ``We may even see some changes if the president is re-elected. I've been in this business long enough to learn nothing is guaranteed.'' Griffin, a federal employee since 1961, was an Apollo flight controller for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, and was deputy director of Kennedy Space Center at Cape Canaveral, Fla. He said the United States still leads the way in space exploration, but adds that the Soviet Union, Europeans, Japan and China are ``all coming on strong.'' Griffin said he wants NASA employees to think of the space shuttle as a continuing program, not a series of projects. He said the program has made great progress. ``We're still having a few hiccups flight to flight,'' he said. But, ``We're not hovering over every flight in orbit anymore.'' ------------------------------ Date: 6 Nov 1984 0951-PST From: Rem@IMSSS Subject: Replies -- (1) apollo moon (2) insurance returning satellites To:SPACE@MIT-MC Subject:Apollo-moon set us back?, insurance return of satellites The three-man Apollo spacecraft that had been planned for Earth orbit research was retargeted for the moon, and a two-man interim craft, Gemini, was initiated to perfect rendezvous and other techniques that would be needed for the missions. Gee, I never heard of the plan for 3-man low-Earth-orbit research project before. If this is true, maybe the lunar-Apollo program really did set us back ten years in LEO research. In the 60's we could have been developing a LEO research program, and have a space station up about 1970, a permanently-manned one about 1975 (instead of 1992), and use of lunar and asteroid resources by 1980, and habitat for 1000 people in space by 1984? Another reply... Insurance underwriters are paying the National Aeronautics and Space Administration $5.5 million to return the satellites to Earth for refurbishment. The underwriters hope to resell the renovated satellites to recoup some of the $180 million in premiums they paid out when the payloads entered the wrong orbits. Hey, that's cheap, only about 3 percent. If this mission fails they could try several more times and when they finally succeed they'd still be ahead. (Actually that's only the bring-down cost. How much does it cost after refurbishment to put them back up again? But in any case, if bringing them down is the part that is mostly likely to fail, and it's so very cheap, they can try several times without major cost.) ------------------------------ Message-Id: <8411062101.AA01137@decwrl.ARPA> Date: 06-Nov-1984 1249 From: rabahy%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (David Rabahy) To: space@mit-mc Subject: Space Shuttle Associated Press Tue 06-NOV-1984 10:48 Space Shuttle By HOWARD BENEDICT AP Aerospace Writer CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) - The shuttle Discovery's countdown ticked smoothly toward a Wednesday liftoff, but thousands of loose thermal tiles will delay for several weeks the December flight of sister ship Challenger, space officials said today. Discovery is set to thunder skyward on its second flight at 8:22 a.m. EST Wednesday with a crew of four men and a woman for a busy eight days in space, wher they will release two communications satellites and try to recover two others from useless orbits. The space agency said the weather outlook for launch was favorable, with a forecast of scattered clouds and seven miles visibility. Commanding the mission is veteran shuttle pilot Rick Hauck. Other crew members are pilot David Walker and mission specialists Anna Fisher, Joe Allen and Dale Gardner. The crew was spending much of today reviewing their complex flight plan. On the second and third days, the astronauts will release commercial communications satellites owned by Telesat of Canada and Hughes Communications Services Inc. That will clear the cargo bay for the daring rescue attempts of the Palapa B2 and Westar 6 satellites on the fifth and seventh days. These communications satellites were successfully released by a shuttle crew last February, but they fired into the wrong orbits when booster rockets failed. There was bad news for Challenger on Monday when the National Aeronautics and Space Administration announced that 2,800 of its 31,000 heat-resistent tiles will have to be removed because a compound beneath them has softened, loosening their grip on the metal surface. One of the tiles fell off during Challenger's last mission, which ended Oct. 13, and investigation showed the compound was beginning to soften in other areas. NASA said the softening may have been caused by a chemical used to waterproof the tiles, by the cumulative heating effect of six flights, or a combination of the two. The agency said careful inspection of Discovery's tiles showed that ship does not have the same problem. Challenger's next flight, the first Defense Department shuttle mission with a secret payload, had been set for Dec. 8, but NASA spokesman Charles Redmond said today that it will be delayed several weeks. The job of removing and replacing the tiles is very time-consuming, he said. On the Discovery mission, Allen and Gardner are to make the rescue efforts during a pair of six-hour-long space walks after Hauck and Walker have tracked down the targets and parked alongside, 35 feet away. The satellites are 220 miles high, 690 mils apart. Propelled by a jet-powered backpack, Allen will fly free of the shuttle to secure Palapa with a four-foot pole-like device and move it close enough to the shuttle for Mrs. Fisher to snare it with the ship's 50-foot robot arm. Gardner will wear the jet-pack for the Westar rescue. Insurance underwriters, who paid out $180 million in claims on the wayward satellites, are paying NASA $5.5 million to return them to Earth for renovation and hopeful resale. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 08-Nov-84 0406 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #32 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 32 Today's Topics: Reaching Orbit with Earth-based EM Launchers Re: Replies -- (1) apollo moon (2) insurance returning satellites Space Shuttle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Nov 84 08:19:58 EST From: DIETZ@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: Reaching Orbit with Earth-based EM Launchers To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA An interesting thing about reaching orbit from ground based "guns" is that it is much easier to inject mass into high orbits than into low orbits. The reason is simple: payloads must be launched nearly vertically, and receive all their acceleration near the earth, so they have little angular momentum relative to the earth. While it is easy to send payloads to orbital altitudes you must attach a kick motor to circularize the orbit. The best destination would probably be the trailing langrangian point (I always forget if that's L4 or L5), since one could grab some angular momentum from the moon. To reach LEO one would probably inject the payload into a very eccentric orbit (with a small burn at apogee to keep the perigee above ground) then use aerobraking to circularize. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 84 10:26:47 pst From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) Message-Id: <8411071826.AA01925@ucbkim.ARPA> To: Rem@IMSSS, SPACE@MIT-MC Subject: Re: Replies -- (1) apollo moon (2) insurance returning satellites Yea, the LEO research station would have been possible had the space program wanted to go for an Earth Orbit Rendezvous (EOR) rather than Lunar Orbit Rendezvous (LOR). I gather that the trouble was that no one wanted to make the LEM a true space vehicle, i.e., one capable of making a burn from Lunar orbit into LEO, and vice versa. Rick. ------------------------------ Message-Id: <8411072011.AA14573@decwrl.ARPA> Date: 07-Nov-1984 1454 From: rabahy%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (David Rabahy) To: space@mit-mc Subject: Space Shuttle Associated Press Wed 07-NOV-1984 02:28 Space Shuttle By HOWARD BENEDICT AP Aerospace Writer CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) - Technicians fueled Discovery's cavernous tanks early today for the first space salvage mission - a daring attempt by free-flying, jet-propelled astronauts to capture two wayward satellites for return to Earth. The countdown proceeded smoothly and liftoff was advanced by one minute, to 8:23 a.m. EST, to improve the rendezvous position with the first satellite to be intercepted and hauled aboard the shuttle. Discovery is carrying two commercial communications satellites and a crew of four men and one woman. Commander Rick Hauck predicted in advance the eight-day trip will be ``pure excitement.'' Their goal: Deploy the two satellites for paying customers and then track down and retrieve the Palapa B2 and Westar 6 payloads, which have been drifting in useless orbits since February. ``It will be a very challenging mission,'' said Jesse Moore, director of the shuttle program for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. The other crew members are pilot David Walker and mission specialists Anna Fisher, Joe Allen and Dale Gardner. Mrs. Fisher, a physician, is the fourth American woman and first mother named to a space flight. She and her astronaut husband, Bill, are parents of a 14-month-old daughter. On Thursday and Friday, the crew will release into separate orbits the commercial satellites for Telesat of Canada and Hughes Communications Services Inc. That will clear the cargo bay for the attempted rescues of Palpa and Westar. The satellites, costing $35 million each, were launched successfully by another shuttle crew in February, but they fired into wrong orbits when their booster rockets failed. They are 224 miles high, 690 miles apart. To chase down the targets, Hauck and Walker are to maneuver Discovery through a series of 44 engine firings at 17,400 mph. When the shuttle steers to within 35 feet of Palapa, Allen and Gardner will don spacesuits and float out of the cabin into the open cargo bay. There, Allen will slip into a Buck-Rogers-like backpack and move over to the satellite, securing it with a pole-like device called a stinger. Allen will push it close enough to the shuttle so that Mrs. Fisher can grab Palapa with the ship's 50-foot mechanical arm. Alln and Gardner will secure it in the bay. For the Westar rescue, the spacewalkers will reverse roles, with Gardner flying to the satellite. Insurance underwriters hope to recoup $50 million to $60 million of the $180 million they paid in claims by refurbishing the satellits back on Earth for resale. NASA earns $5.5 million for theretrieval. The underwriters took ownership of the satellites from the original owners, the Indonesian government and Western Union. The astronauts also will run an experiment for 3M Co., exploring the properties and behavior of organic crystals grown in space weightlessness. The experiment, the first of more than 70 that 3M hopes to conduct in space over the next decade, might have important applications to the company's business in imaging, electronics and health care. The flight is the third in 10 weeks for the shuttle program. NASA had hoped to maintain a one-a-month launch rate for the next year, but those hopes were dashed Monday when NASA found that 2,800 of Challenger's 31,000 heat-resistant tiles will have to be removed because a bonding compound beneath them has softened, loosening their grip on the metal craft. Officials said the flight, which had been set for Dec. 8, will be delayed at least six weeks. But they said they hoped by later next yer to have the schedule back on track. Associated Press Wed 07-NOV-1984 09:59 Space Shuttle By HOWARD BENEDICT AP Aerospace Writer CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) - Strong high-altitude crosswinds that could tear a spaceship apart today postponed the launch of space shuttle Discovery, and liftoff was rescheduled for Thursday for a mission in which free-flying astronauts will retrieve two off-course satellites. ``We are no-go today and will have to scrub,'' launch director Bob Sieck told the astronaut crew of four men and one woman just 32 minutes before the planned launch time of 8:23 a.m. EST. A weather balloon detected the stiff shear winds between 20,000 and 40,000 feet above the launch pad early this morning. When they failed to subside sufficiently, shuttle managers decided to call off the effort for the day. The winds ranged from 66 to 80 mph, but from different directions. ``The winds are very erratic,'' launch control spokesman Hugh Harris reported. At about 40,000 feet - 71/2 miles - a shuttle is subjected to maximum dynamic forces as it pushes up through the atmosphere toward orbit. Strong, erratic winds could severely damage the ship, tearing off the wings, tail, booster rockets and fuel tank. The shuttle weather officer, Air Force Capt. Art Thomas, said that if Discovery had been launched, it would have been buffeted by winds ``that would have varied from the northwest, back to the southwest and back to the northwest again.... We have launched in higher winds before, but not with these different directions.'' Thomas said the crosswinds were the result of a low pressure frontal system moving through the area. He said the system was moving away and he expected better conditions Thursday, but said ``we'll have to monitor the winds closely'' with a series of weather balloons. The crew was informed of the potential problem just an hour before the intended liftoff. ``We want to make you aware of a situation which is not very favrable for a launch today,'' Sieck told them. ``We have a significant shear in the upper atmosphere, and the analysis here is we would exceed the structural load limits on the vehicle.'' There was no immediate comment from the astronauts when the launch was scrubbed half an hour later, and they returned to their quarters. They had been aboard the spaceship for more than an hour, and the countdown had proceeded smoothly until the postponement. The launch of Discovery, rescheduled for 7:17 a.m. Thursday, wil send the astronauts on a challenging eight-day mission. The astronauts' goal: Deploy the two satellites for paying customers and then track down and retrieve the Palapa B2 and Westar 6 payloads, which have been drifting in useless orbits since February. ``It will be a very challenging mission,'' said Jesse Moore, director of the shuttle program for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. The other crew members are pilot David Walker and mission specialists Anna Fisher, Joe Allen and Dale Gardner. Mrs. Fisher, a physician, is the fourth American woman and first mother named to a space flight. She and her astronaut husband, Bill, are parents of a 14-month-old daughter. The crew will release into separate orbits the commercial satellites for Telesat of Canada and Hughes Communications Services Inc. That will clear the cargo bay for the attempted rescues of Palapa and Westar. The satellites, costing $35 million each, were launched successfully by another shuttle crew in February, but they fired into wrong orbits when their booster rockets failed. They are 224 miles high, 690 miles apart. To chase down the targets, Hauck and Walker are to maneuver Discovery through a series of 44 engine firings at 17,400 mph. When the shuttle steers to within 35 feet of Palapa, Allen and Gardner will don spacesuits and float out of the cabin into the ope cargo bay. There, Allen will slip into a Buck-Rogers-like backpack and move over to the satellite, securing it with a pole-like device called a stinger. Allen will push it close enough to the shuttle so that Mrs. Fisher can grab Palapa with the ship's 50-foot mechanical arm. Allen and Gardner will secure it in the bay. For the Westar rescue, the spacewalkers will reverse roles, with Gardner flying to the satellite. Insurance underwriters hope to recoup $50 million to $60 million of the $180 million they paid in claims by refurbishing the satellites back on Earth for resale. NASA earns $5.5 million for theretrieval. The underwriters took ownership of the satellites from the originalowners, the Indonesian government and Western Union. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 09-Nov-84 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #33 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 33 Today's Topics: NOAA-F satellite Garn-Shuttle Space shuttle OASIS/L5 lecture in L.A. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message-Id: <8411081755.AA08836@decwrl.ARPA> Date: 08-Nov-1984 1253 From: rabahy%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (David Rabahy) To: space@mit-mc Subject: NOAA-F satellite Associated Press Thu 08-NOV-1984 05:25 Satellite Launch Launch From California Scrubbed VANDENBERG AIR FORCE BASE, Calif. (AP) - The launch of a satellite to monitor Earth's weather and help locate plane crash and shipwreck survivors was scrubbed early today because of strong winds - the same problem that delayed launch of the space shuttle this week. The NOAA-F satellite, mounted atop an Atlas-E rocket, was scheduled for launch from this coastal military base between 2:42 a.m. and 2:52 a.m., according to the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. But the launch was postponed 24 hours because winds at 40,000 feet were blowing at 120 knots, ``just above the margin that we needed,'' NASA spokesman Jim Elliott said early today. Surface winds of 30 knots also exceded a 20-knot limit, Elliott said. The launch was rescheduled for the same 10-minute window Friday morning. The $56 million RCA Corp. satellite is destined for a near-polar orbit about 540 miles above the Earth, where it ``will transmit data directly around the world for local weather analysis,'' NASA said in a statement. The satellite is the sixth in a series of eight intended to provide scientists with the most comprehensive weather and environmental information since the start of the U.S. space program, NASA said. NOAA-F also is equipped with special instruments to further test a satellite-aided search-and-rescue system for finding radio distress signals triggered by survivors of shipwrecks and plane crashes or other people stranded in remote areas. The satellite will assume the duties of a sister satellite that broke down last June, NASA officials said. Similar service is available from three Soviet satellites and NOAA-F to nations around the world. At least 318 lives have been saved by the multi-national satellite system, said Fred Flatlow of the Goddard Space Center in Greenbelt, Md. Federal regulations require the use of emergency locator transmitters on most ships and planes. NOAA-F's weather and environmental monitoring equipment can make weather photographs and study Earth's surface, ocean and atmospheric temperatures, cloud cover, melting of mountain snowpacks and ``backscatter'' of solar radiation. A satellite similar to NOAA-F is scheduled for launch in August 1985. ------------------------------ Message-Id: <8411081753.AA08822@decwrl.ARPA> Date: 08-Nov-1984 1250 From: rabahy%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (David Rabahy) To: space@mit-mc Subject: Garn-Shuttle Associated Press Thu 08-NOV-1984 04:30 Garn-Shuttle NASA Invites U.S. Senator to Fly on Shuttle$[m With PM-Space Shuttle Bjt SALT LAKE CITY (AP) - U.S. Sen. Jake Garn says he never unduly pressured NASA to let him ride on the space shuttle, but he admits the invitation resulted from his lobbying and the fact that he chairs the subcommittee that funds the space agency. Garn, a Utah Republican, announced Wednesday that NASA administrator James M. Beggs asked him to consider ``making an inspection tour and flight aboard the shuttle.'' Garn said he has been lobbying for years for such an offer. ``But I didn't say to NASA, `You can't have a shuttle unless you let me go,''' Garn said. ``It's a little difficult to believe,'' he said. ``I've wanted to do this for so long, I feel like a little kid who's been waiting for Christmas.'' In his acceptance letter to Beggs, Garn wrote, ``My interest in making such a flight has been no secret since April 12, 1981, when Columbia made her maiden voyage. Naturally, I enthusiastically, eagerly and wholeheartedly accept your invitation.'' Garn, chairman of the appropriations subcommittee that funds the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, said he has joked with NASA officials that he would consider their spending requests if they sent him into space. A former Navy pilot and retired colonel in the Utah Air National Guard, Garn, 52, has logged more than 10,000 hours as a pilot and has flown many of the nation's most sophisticated military aircraft, including the F-14, F-15, F-16 and B-1 bomber. On Aug. 27, President Reagan announced he had directed NASA to search for a schoolteacher to be the first ``citizen-passenger'' in space.NASA public affairs officers said it was not known whether Garn would fly before the teacher. By pre-arrangement, the announcement came not from NASA, but from Garn's office. Garn said he hoped to go on a Challenger flight scheduled for Feb. 12, when the Senate will be in recess. Beforehand, he said, he would undergo more than 100 hours of training at the Johnson Space Center in Houston. The training would include everything from coping with weightlessness to ``finding the men's room,'' he said. When Garn goes into orbit, his shuttle - like all shuttles - will be boosted by twin rockets made by a Utah firm, Morton Thiokol. NASA said the booster contract has meant more than $1.5 billion since 1973 to the company, located in Brigham City. NASA said it is extending the invitation for a shuttle flight to the chairmen of any committees directly responsible for NASA activities. That would include Rep. Edward P. Boland, D-Mass; Sen. Slade Gorton, R-Wash.; and Rep. Harold L. Volkmer, D-Mo. Several non-astronauts already have flown the shuttle. The first were two scientists - one German, one American - on the ninth shuttle mission a year ago. In September, the shuttle carried the first paying customer, industry engineer Charles D. Walker. Several others have been assigned to future trips. ------------------------------ Message-Id: <8411081808.AA08903@decwrl.ARPA> Date: 08-Nov-1984 1256 From: rabahy%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (David Rabahy) To: space@mit-mc Subject: Space shuttle Associated Press Thu 08-NOV-1984 02:56 Space Shuttle By HOWARD BENEDICT AP Aerospace Writer CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) - With strong crosswinds above the launch pad a diminishing threat, technicians fueled Discovery again today for a second try at launching the shuttle on a satellite rescue mission. The countdown, halted by severe winds just 32 minutes before liftoff Wednesday, ticked toward a new launch attempt at 7:15 a.m. EST, while weather experts probed the skies with radar and data-gathering balloons. Shuttle managers decided late Wednesday to proceed with a new count after analysis of balloon data indicated the wind threat had diminished somewhat. ``The weather situation has improved significantly,'' said mission commentator Jim Ball about five hours before the scheduled liftoff time. ``At this point, we have confidence that the weather is going to be favorable at launch time. Some hours ago, it was reported to be acceptable and the trend is toward further improvement. . . We are continuing to monitor.'' The winds that caused Wednesday's scrub ranged from 66 to 80 mph. That is not enough to bother Discovery if they were from one direction, but they flowed from several directions at different alttudes, which could catch the shuttle in a scissors, severely damaging it and endangering the crew. ``We all agree that this morning's scrub was done for all the right reasons,'' astronaut Rick Hauck, commander of the mission, said in a statement distributed by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. ``We were initially disappointed, but we were pleased with the professionalism of the launch team.'' The others in Hauck's crew are pilot David Walker and mission specialists Anna Fisher, Joe Allen and Dale Gardner. Gardner's 36th birthday is today, and Hauck said the crew was looking forward to giving him ``the biggest birthday candle of his life.'' The crew had waited out Wednesday's countdown in Discovery's cabin for more than two hours. Mrs. Fisher, a physician, is the fourth American woman and first mother named to a space flight. She and her astronaut-physician husband, Bill, are parents of a 14-month-old daughter, Kristin. The astronauts' goals during eight days in orbit are to deploy two commercial communications satellites for paying customers and to track down and capture the Palapa B2 and Westar 6 payloads, which have been drifting in useless orbits since last February. They also will operate an experiment for 3M Company, exploring the properties and behavior of organic chemicals in space weightlessness. 3M recently signed a multimillion dollar contract with NASA to conduct experiments on 72 shuttle missions over the next decade and to develop an industrial chemical research laboratory aboard the space station planned for the early 1990s. On Friday and Saturday, the crew is to release into separate orbits the commercial satellites for Telesat of Canada and Hughes Communications Services Inc. Then Hauck and Walker are to guide Discovery through a series of 44 engine firings to track down the Palapa and Westar satellites, sent into off-course orbits by faulty booster rockets after being deployed successfully by a shuttle crew. They are 224 miles high, 690 miles apart. Allen and Gardner are to make the rescue efforts during a pair of six-hour space walks Monday and Wednesday, with the shuttle flying 35 feet away in each case. To capture Palapa, Allen will fly free of the ship, propelled by a jet-powered back pack, and secure the satellite with a four-foot pole-like device, moving it close so Mrs. Fisher can grasp it with a 50-foot mechanical arm. Gardner will wear the jet-pack for the Westar retrieval. Insurance underwriters, who paid out $180 million in claims on the wayward satellites, are paying NASA $5.5 million to return them to Earth for renovation and resale. The flight is to end Nov. 15 with a landing here. Associated Press Thu 08-NOV-1984 11:17 Shuttle Crew Crew Includes Three Veterans And Two Rookies With PM-Space Shuttle, Bjt SPACE CENTER, Houston (AP) - The voyage of the space shuttle Discovery is carrying more spaceflight veterans into space this week than on any of the previous shuttle missions. The five-member crew includes three astronauts who have flown in space before, making this the first shuttle mission to carry more veterans than rookies. The crew comprises three Navy pilots, a physicist and a physician. Mission commander is Frederick H. Hauck, 43, a Navy captain who was pilot on an earlier mission. The other two veterans are mission specialist Dale A. Gardner, 36, a Navy commander, and Joseph P. Allen, 47, a former nuclear physics researcher. The first-time space voyagers are pilot David M. Walker, 40, a Navy commander, and mission specialist Anna L. Fisher, 35. Hauck, who goes by the nickname Rick, was commissioned in the Navy after earning a master of science degree in nuclear engineering from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. He flew 114 combat missions in Vietnam, was selected as an astronaut in 1978 and flew on the seventh shuttle flight. Hauck is married and has two children. Walker also was a Navy combat pilot in Vietnam, serving two tours, and graduated from the Navy academy at Annapolis, Md. He became a Navy test pilot in 1971, and NASA selected him as an astronaut in 1978. He is divorced and has two children. Allen was selectedas a scientist-astronaut in 1967, during the Apollo program, but did not fly into space until 1982 when he was a mission specialist on the fifth shuttle mission. He is married and has two children. Allen holds a doctorate in physics from Yale University and was a researcher at the Nuclear Structure Lab at Yale and at the Brookhaven National Laboratory. He also served as science consultant on the President's Council on International Economic Policy and was NASA's assistant administrator for legislative affairs in Washington from 1975 to 1978. On his first mission, Allen's planned spacewalk was canceled when part of his spacesuit failed. He will get another chance as the lead spacewalker in this mission's attempt to salvage two satellites. Gardner will be Allen's spacewalk partner. The two will try to retrieve two wayward communications satellites and help bolt them into Discovery's cargo bay to be returned to Earth. In the Navy, Gardner tested weapons and navigation equipment and was on two aircraft carrier cruises. He was selected as an astronaut in 1978 and was on the crew of the eighth shuttle flight. He is married and has one child. Mrs. Fisher, the fourth American woman to fly in space, will operate the shuttle's robot arm to manuever the two salvaged satellites into the cargo bay. Mrs. Fisher and her husband Bill are both doctors. She is a specialist in emergency medicine and has worked at a number of hospitals around Los Angeles. Both Fishers applied to the astronaut corps in 1977, but only she was selected in 1978. Her husband reapplied in 1979 and became an astronaut in 1980. The Fishers have a 14-month-old daughter, Kristin, making Mrs. Fisher the first mother to fly into orbit. Associated Press Thu 08-NOV-1984 08:37 Space Shuttle By HOWARD BENEDICT AP Aerospace Writer CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) - Shuttle Discovery vaulted spectacularly into orbit today and began pursuit of two wayward satellites that free-flying jet-propelled astronauts are to retrieve in a daring salvage mission. During eight days in orbit, the crew of four men and one woman also is to deploy two communications satellites for paying customers and conduct crystal-growing experiments that could lead to a major new industry in space. With tens of thousands watching, Discovery roared away from this spaceport at 7:15 a.m. EST and rose swiftly through partly cloudy skies on 7 million pounds of thrust, darting eastward over the Atlantic Ocean. Nine minutes after liftoff, mission control center in Houston reported the winged ship was in orbit 184 miles above the globe, speeding along at 17,400 mph. ``We look good,'' said astronaut Rick Hauck, mission commander. Within an hour, the astronauts triggered Discovery's maneuvering engines in the first of 44 firings designed to track down two off-course satellites for the rescue attempts next week. They were to capture the first payload Monday after a chase of 1.6 million miles, 64 times around the globe. Liftoff was a day late. The flight was postponed Wednesday, just 32 minutes before the planned launch time, because of strong high-altitude crosswinds which could have severely damaged the shuttle. Shuttle managers decided later Wednesday to proceed with a new count after analysis of balloon and radar data showed the wind threat had vanished. The flight is the 14th in the shuttle program, the second for Discovery. Hauck predicted in advance the flight would be one of ``pure exctement.'' The others in Hauck's crew are pilot David Walker and mission specialists Anna Fisher, Joe Allen and Dale Gardner. Gardner's 36th birthday is today, and Hauck said after Wednesday's scrub that the astronauts were looking forward to giving him ``the biggest birthday candle of his life.'' Mrs. Fisher, a physician, is the fourth American woman and first mother named to a space flight. She and her astronaut-physician husband, Bill, are parents of a 14-month-old daughter, Kristin. The astronauts' goals during eight days in orbit are to deploy two commercial communications satellites for paying customers and to track down and capture the Palapa B2 and Westar 6 payloads, which have been drifting in useless orbits since last February. They also will operate an experiment for 3M Company, exploring the properties and behavior of organic chemicals in space weightlessness. 3M recently signed a multimillion dollar contract with NASA to conduct experiments on 72 shuttle missions over the next decade and to develop an industrial chemical research laboratory aboard the space station planned for the early 1990s. On Friday and Saturday, the crew is to release into separate orbits the commercial satellites for Telesat of Canada and Hughes Communications Services Inc. Then Hauck and Walker are to guide Discovery to the Palapa and Westar satellites, sent into off-course orbits by faulty booster rockets after being deployed successfully by a shuttle crew. They are 224 miles high, 690 miles apart. Allen and Gardner are to make the rescue efforts during a pair of six-hour space walks Monday and Wednesday, with the shuttle flying 35 feet away in each case. To capture Palapa, Allen will fly free of the ship, propelled by a jet-powered back pack, and secure the satellite with a four-foot pole-like device, moving it close so Mrs. Fisher can grasp it with a 50-foot mechanical arm. Gardner will wear the jet-pack for the Westar retrieval. Insurance underwriters, who paid out $180 million in claims on the wayward satellites, are paying NASA $5.5 million to return them to Earth for renovation and resale. The flight is to end Nov. 16 with a landing here. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Nov 1984 16:28:40 PST Subject: OASIS/L5 lecture in L.A. From: Alan R. Katz To: bboard@USC-ISIF.ARPA, bboard@USC-ECL.ARPA, space-enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: katz@USC-ISIF.ARPA "Steps to the Stars" a talk by Eric Burgess Author and co-founder of the British Interplanetary Society Saturday, Dec. 8, 1984 7:00 PM Von Karman Auditorium, Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena Sponsored by OASIS/L5, the Los Angeles chapter of the L5 Society. Alan ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 10-Nov-84 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #34 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 34 Today's Topics: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #33 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 9 Nov 84 10:55:45-PST From: Wilkins Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #33 To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA There are many long news stories being sent in these digests. Most of these are the same stories in our daily papers, and are in no way inaccessible or hard to find. I vote we assume the readership of this list reads the paper, and therby cut the length of these digests. David ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 11-Nov-84 0404 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #35 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 35 Today's Topics: Posting of news stories in the SPACE Digest. SPACE Digest V5 #33 LEM Re: Included new stories Wire stories: yes! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Nov 1984 07:42-PST From: the tty of Geoffrey S. Goodfellow To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC Cc: SPACE@MIT-MC Message-ID: <[SRI-CSL]10-Nov-84 07:42:06.GEOFF> Subject: Posting of news stories in the SPACE Digest. I don't take `papers'. Never have, never will. I consider them an obsolete means of `reading the news'. I for one muchly enjoy the news stories posted in SPACE. Why fumble thru that news print stuff when you can have it right on your CRT. Please keep it up! g ------------------------------ Date: 10 Nov 84 11:32 EST (Sat) From: _Bob To: Wilkins Cc: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: SPACE Digest V5 #33 From: Wilkins There are many long news stories being sent in these digests. Most of these are the same stories in our daily papers, and are in no way inaccessible or hard to find. I vote we assume the readership of this list reads the paper, and therby cut the length of these digests. David Second the motion. _B ------------------------------ Date: 10 Nov 84 1205 EST (Saturday) From: Ed.Clune@CMU-CS-A.ARPA To: space@mit-mc.arpa Subject: LEM Message-Id: <10Nov84.120535.EC2F@CMU-CS-A.ARPA> In response to previous discussions, the reason the Apollo configuration (ie taking a LEM to the moon rather than having one vehicle go from the earth to the moon) was safety and reliability. If an accident or malfunction occured with the 2 vehicle configuration, there was a better chance of the astronauts returning safely (as was demonstrated in Apollo 13). I can't give you the source for this information, but I think it would be in any book that gives a detailed history of the Apollo program. Ed Clune ------------------------------ Date: 10-Nov-84 16:31 PST From: William Daul - Augmentation Systems - McDnD Subject: Re: Included new stories To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.arpa Cc: WILKINS@SRI-AI.ARPA Message-ID: <[OFFICE-2.ARPA]TYM-WBD-5S4HI> I vote for continuing adding those news stories. They are frequently more complete than what we see in the papers. Personally, the less I see of the papers the better. --Bi\\ ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 10 November 1984 21:33:41 EST From: Hans.Moravec@cmu-ri-rover.arpa To: space@mit-mc.arpa Subject: Wire stories: yes! I too would like to continue to see the news stories. This list is like a specialty newspaper with a very active letters section. To get the bulk of the NYT wire stories you'd have to buy the NYT and read their obnoxious political endorsments. The AP stories are often omitted or truncated by local papers, or buried in the sports section (about 80% of the paper here in Pittsburgh). I buy newspaper whenever there's garbage to wrap (and once a year to check prices in the 47th street photo ads). The real problem is the propriety of using the stories without an explicit arrangement with the wire services. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 12-Nov-84 0404 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #36 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 36 Today's Topics: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #33 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- id AA05395; Sat, 10 Nov 84 19:59:36 pst id AA06356; Sat, 10 Nov 84 20:00:43 pst Date: Sat, 10 Nov 84 19:44:09 pst From: Rick McGeer (on an z29-e) Message-Id: <8411110344.1427@ucbrob.ARPA> id AA01427; Sat, 10 Nov 84 19:44:09 pst To: Carter@RUTGERS.ARPA, WILKINS@SRI-AI.ARPA Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #33 Cc: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Keep those newspaper stories coming. Those who don't like them can hit the 'n' key. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 13-Nov-84 0406 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #37 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 37 Today's Topics: Posting of news stories in the SPACE Digest Posting of news stories in the SPACE Digest. SPACE Digest V5 #35 wire news Wire stories... satellite retrieval Re: SPACE Digest V5 #34 Re: SPACE Digest V5 #34 Can't send to mcgeer directly, so forgive me ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Nov 84 09:04 EST From: Damouth.Wbst@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Posting of news stories in the SPACE Digest To: SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA In regard to the difference of opinion about posting the long news stories: If someone is willing to do a bit of editing, there is a compromise position. There is a great deal of redundancy from one story to the next. Occasionally, only the first few paragraphs are new and the rest of a long story is boilerplate that has aready been included in earlier stories. If the redundant material is removed, the postings will be considerably shorter, and perhaps everyone will be satisfied, or at least less unhappy. /Dave ------------------------------ Date: 12 Nov 84 10:44:05 EST (Monday) From: Heiny.henr@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Posting of news stories in the SPACE Digest. To: SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: , Heiny.henr@XEROX.ARPA From: Wilkins There are many long news stories being sent in these digests. Most of these are the same stories in our daily papers, and are in no way inaccessible or hard to find. I vote we assume the readership of this list reads the paper, and therby cut the length of these digests. David They may be in YOUR daily papers, but they're most often NOT in either of mine. If the local papers do carry them, the stories are usually severely cut, and/or out of date. The digest is the best way for many of us to keep up on such things. Hail Eris, Chris PS If you're worried about the length of digests, how about a 200 word limit on each submission? Since the digest is assembled automatically, that should be easy to implement. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Nov 1984 01:07 EST Message-ID: From: MINSKY%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: SPACE@MIT-MC, minsky%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: SPACE Digest V5 #35 I don't read newspapers either. 'Ray for SPACE Digest. ---Minsky ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Nov 84 16:48 EST From: Ellman@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: wire news To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA Message-ID: <841112214841.505555@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA> Yes the wire news stories do contain information not found in newspapers, but the problem arises when the digest includes more than one wire story. The second story repeadt most of the first one and adds little new. If they are to be included, they should be edited to avoid repitition. Hmm.. I'm also a bit offended when the person who has been writing these storierefers to Anna Fisher as Mrs. Fisher and all the others by their last name only. Maybe when her husband is flying too, there will be need for distinction, but this could easily be handled by placing an initial before the name.. I wouldn't mind if the wire stores went away. -nan ------------------------------ Date: Mon 12 Nov 84 11:56:03-EST From: Vince.Fuller@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Wire stories... To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA As another person who does not subscribe to a daily paper (after moving from Washington, DC to Pittsburgh, I can't seem to find a real newspaper around here), I would like to continue to see the newswire stories. They are more convenient and often more complete. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Nov 1984 0919-PST From: Richard M. King Subject: satellite retrieval To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA Saw the docking at roughly 0630 PST. Impressive. It worked so smoothly that it lacked the drama of last time! This, together with Wednesday's retrieval, is a unique event. I think we should see to it that channel 5 (CBS I think, but don't quote me) receives complaints. If the problem extends beyond the San Francisco area, perhaps a letter to the network would be justified. Dick ------------------------------ Date: 12 Nov 84 08:45:51 PST (Monday) From: Reed.SV@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #34 To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA I vote against excluding long new stories. Most of them I don't see in my local papers, and when I do, they are often edited down quite a bit. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Nov 84 08:27 PST From: WAHL.ES@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #34 To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: WAHL.ES@XEROX.ARPA If we're taking votes, I vote against David Wilkins' suggestion that the newstories be elliminated. I find them to be a lot of fun and don't see them elsewhere. --Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 12 Nov 1984 2328-PST From: Rem@IMSSS Subject: Can't send to mcgeer directly, so forgive me To: SPACE%MIT-MC@SCORE I tried twice to send this to mcgeer individually, but failed, so everybody else please ignore this message posted via SPACE. 12-Nov-84 20:33:00-PST,2266;000000000001 Mail-from: SU-NET host Score rcvd at 12-Nov-84 2033-PST Date: 12 November 1984 23:33-EST From: Communications Satellite Subject: Msg of Monday, 12 November 1984 23:19-EST To: REM @ MIT-MC FAILED: mcgeer%ucbrob@Berkeley at SU-SCORE; Recipient name apparently rejected. Last reply was: {500 Syntax error or field too long: RCPT TO:} Failed message follows: ------- Date: 12 November 1984 23:19-EST From: Robert Elton Maas To: "mcgeer%ucbrob@Berkeley" @ SU-SCORE 12-Nov-84 14:40:15-PST,1610;000000000000 Mail-from: SU-NET host Score rcvd at 12-Nov-84 1440-PST id AA04165; Mon, 12 Nov 84 14:39:48 pst Date: 12 Nov 1984 1344-PST From: MAILER-DAEMON@Berkeley (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown Message-Id: <8411122239.AA04165@UCB-VAX.ARPA> To: ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 421 ucbrob".tcp... Deferred: Error 0 550 <\"mcgeer%ucbrob\"@UCB-VAX.ARPA>... Host unknown ----- Unsent message follows ----- id AA04163; Mon, 12 Nov 84 14:39:48 pst Message-Id: <8411122239.AA04163@UCB-VAX.ARPA> Date: 12 Nov 1984 1344-PST From: Rem@IMSSS Subject: 'n' key?? To: "mcgeer%ucbrob"%Berkeley@SCORE Date: Sat, 10 Nov 84 19:44:09 pst From: Rick McGeer (on an z29-e) Keep those newspaper stories coming. Those who don't like them can hit the 'n' key. I don't know what hitting the 'n' key does on your system, but where I read mail the 'n' key either moves to the next (older) message without deleting the one I was looking at (not too useful since I have to come back and delete it later, meanwhile it occupies disk space), or inserts the text character 'n' in my edit buffer. Perhaps you should avoid host-specific jargon in talking to a net-wide mailing list? ------- ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 14-Nov-84 0406 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #38 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 38 Today's Topics: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #34 Posting of News Stories Re: IEEE magnetic railgun Huh? Re: SPACE Digest V5 #37 (Posting of News Stories) Re: SPACE Digest V5 #36 [Rem@IMSSS: Docking coverage] Wire Stories ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 13 Nov 84 08:24:31-EST From: Gern Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #34 To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA I vote to keep the many long news stories that are being sent in these digests. The net mailings lists ARE my daily newspapers in a way (sorrow for the killed AP-NEWS-LOVERS). Most of these stories I would never see as they are much more informative than what I read in two local papers. If you don't like 'em, don't read 'em. Cheers, Gern ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Nov 84 08:27 EST From: Seiffer.Henr@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Posting of News Stories To: Space@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: Seiffer.henr@XEROX.ARPA I vigorously support the editing of the articles before they are posted to the net. How about continuing to post the articles until some decision is made?? I really miss reading the shuttle reports as I don't get to see them in my local paper. Is anyone keeping a poll of the responses to the article posting?? Is anyone going to act on those results?? Keep Reaching for the Stars, Brian ------------------------------ Message-Id: <8411131446.AA01245@decwrl.ARPA> Date: 13-Nov-1984 0944 From: rabahy%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (David Rabahy) To: space@mit-mc Subject: Re: IEEE magnetic railgun I recall Robert Heinlein using a similar idea in "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress". It was first suggested as "a cheap way to ship massive tonnage to Luna" during Manuel's and the Prof's visit to earth. Dr. Chan retorts, "... has been proposed many times and always rejected ... Something to do with air pressure." Supposedly, "the problem can be solved ... based on extensive analyses by computer and on our experience with catapulting. The length of an escape-speed catapult is determined by the acceleration. ... of twenty gravities is about optimum. ... three hundred twenty-three kilometers in length ... aboveground to permit shock waves to expand. The stator would stretch nearly horizontally, rising perhaps four kilometers in three hundred ... -almost straight, as Coriolis acceleration and other minor variables make it a gentle curve." The story goes on in greater detail about escape speed being a "scalar" and how to deliver payloads to Luna. Heinlein anticipates "Weather would be a problem, too." There is nothing explicit about magnetics being used but I think it save to assume that would be the motive force involved. David. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 1984 0841-PST From: Richard M. King Subject: Huh? To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA Whassa mattah wit ya guys??? The day after the world's first successful space salvage operation (assuming the bird lands safely) I see a 7K plus Space Digest - reasonable enough - and I go to read it and see only one article concerning the salvage, my own, and a dozen arguments about news stories on the digest?? We should have a special digest for arguments on whether the news wire stories should be on the main digest. Dick ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 1984 10:14-PST Sender: WARD@USC-ISIF.ARPA Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #37 (Posting of News Stories) From: Craig E. Ward To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Message-ID: <[USC-ISIF.ARPA]13-Nov-84 10:14:02.WARD> I vote to keep the wire stories coming. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Nov 84 12:45 EST From: Kovnat.HENR@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #36 To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: Kovnat.HENR@XEROX.ARPA I would like to see the news wire articles continue in the Space digests. They often contain more information that what little appears in our local papers. It may help to include them at the end of the digest to help those people who are reading at 300 baud. Larry ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 1984 1049-PST From: Richard M. King Subject: [Rem@IMSSS: Docking coverage] To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA I apologize for not making my complaint with channel 5 more clear. Channel five in the San Francisco Bay Area did nothing. NADA. NIL!! While NASA was providing them (presumably all 3 networks get the same thing) with high-quality live feed, channel 5 gave out its usual Monday morning drivel while channel 4 gave live coverage and even usually let the astronauts do the talking! Of course I have no way of knowing whether the problem is with KPIX or with CBS. Dick --------------- Return-path: Date: 13 Nov 1984 1003-PST From: Rem@IMSSS Subject: Docking coverage To: DKING%KESTREL@SCORE Date: 12 Nov 1984 0919-PST From: Richard M. King Subject: satellite retrieval Saw the docking at roughly 0630 PST. Impressive. It worked so smoothly that it lacked the drama of last time! I lost track of time and was sleeping at the time and had to see it later on evening news broadcast. This, together with Wednesday's retrieval, is a unique event. I think we should see to it that channel 5 (CBS I think, but don't quote me) receives complaints. Why, because they didn't add artificial suspense or something, they just showed it the way it really was? What is your complaint? If the problem extends beyond the San Francisco area, perhaps a letter to the network would be justified. P.s. I currently am mostly boycotting channels 5 20 and 2 because of one or more of the following: Vulgar ad "knock to the noodle and blow to the bra" using hints of sexual violence against women to sell their product; Annoying ad several times per hour to spend 50 cents per call to get an astrological forecast. (Yes, channel 5, KPIX, is CBS-affiliated.) By the way, I'm pissed off that all three major networks are effectively boycotting everyone like me with B&W television sets. You see, on election night they put Reagan in red and Mondale in some other color of exactly equal B&W intensity, so the chart was totally meaningless except for the states in white which weren't yet predicted. (One network, NBC or CBS I forget had non-predicted states in gray or somesuch, making it even worse than ABC.) ------- ------- ------------------------------ I'm keeping track of the tally of these messages and they are running strongly infavor of continuing the service with some sentiment for editing. David Rabahy asked me what should be done and I told him to continue. I presume this will happen at his convenience. Cheers, Ted Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Nov 1984 14:02:21 EST From: Macintosh Devaluation Manager Subject: Wire Stories To: ota@s1-a.ARPA I'm all for eliminating the newspaper stories. Not only do they take up space and time, but we're effectively condoning theft by permitting their reprint on the net -- a mere reproduction of the copyright notice is not the payment of royalty that the author and/or wire service actually should be receiving. Dave Axler ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 15-Nov-84 0404 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #39 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 39 Today's Topics: Needed : Star data ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Nov 84 15:55:46 EST From: "Bob Czech" <939@NJIT-EIES.MAILNET> To: SPACE@MIT-MC Subject: Needed : Star data Message-ID: A few months back I remember there being some talk about getting data files containing star data. Well, I just so happen to need such data and would like to know where I can get it. Either reply here or privately. Bob Czech BMC%NJIT-EIES.MAILNET@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 16-Nov-84 0404 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #40 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 40 Today's Topics: News and space Winds aloft & their effect on spacecraft More electromagnetic launchers... star catalog The Shadow of the Asteroid Space Stations Satellite Data needed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu 15 Nov 84 11:08:47-PST From: Wilkins Subject: News and space To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA OK. All right. Keep the news stories, but please do not send me any more messages about how you do not read newspapers as I'm getting overwhelmed. I certainly agree that the news shold be available electronically, but those who have access to the news wires electronically (as I do) do not also need to see the stories a third time (I also read the paper). I was amazed at how many people claim the stories in this digest are their only source of news since they do not take/believe in/can stomach newspapers. While I am as down on the media as the next person, I find it hard to believe that someone can remain well informed about the world, especially the political environment that we are (hopefully) working to change in order to see space colonized, with no other input than the stories on this digest. I hope we're not all the type who want to discuss space in our ivory towers, insulated from the world, not knowing how the rest of the world thinks or how to bring our goals about politically. Keep those stories coming, David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Nov 84 9:09:30 CST From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI To: space@Mit-Mc.ARPA Subject: Winds aloft & their effect on spacecraft Reference the recent postings about the launch delays caused by high-velocity variable winds at altitude: How is this problem treated in regards to military spacecraft (ICBM's, etc.) which do not have the luxury of postponement when such conditions exist, yet mission requirements dictate launching? Do they just accept that n% of a strike launch will be destroyed (or, worse yet, moved wildly off-course) by high winds aloft if such winds happen to be occurring during a launch? Or are the missles built to withstand greater shear forces than something like the shuttle or a satellite-launch vehicle can take? Will Martin ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin ------------------------------ Date: 15 Nov 84 08:26:33 EST From: DIETZ@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: More electromagnetic launchers... To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA A calculus problem concerning EM launchers: The cost of a launch is going to be driven mainly by capital costs of the launcher + power supply. This costs scales (at constant acceleration) linearly with launched mass and as the square of the launch velocity. It makes sense to put a rocket engine in the launched object, since you'll need to be able to correct for velocity errors at launch, and you'll want the payload to be able to home in on its destination in orbit. As long as the rocket is attached you might as well use it as an upper stage (with the EM launcher as the first stage). Using the rocket as an upper stage, we get Vem velocity from the launcher and Vrocket velocity from the engine. Assuming the engine has a specific impulse of I, and ignoring engine and fuel tank weight, how big should Vem and Vrocket be so (1) Vrocket + Vem = 11 km/sec, and (2) launch costs (= constant x Vem^2 x [Payload mass + Fuel Mass]) are minimized? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Nov 84 13:51:50 EST From: Dick Koolish From: Ron Tencati Subject: star catalog To: space@mit-mc.arpa ----BEGINNING OF FORWARDED MESSAGES---- Date: Mon, 10 Sep 84 11:14:40 CDT From: Mike Caplinger Subject: small star database To: cbosgd!djb@Berkeley.ARPA (David J. Bryant) Cc: sky-fans@mit-xx.ARPA As a couple of people told me, the Yale Catalog of Bright Stars is online in the CP/M archives on Simtel-20. According to the documentation, this catalog is in the public domain. It contains information for about ~9000 stars, and is slightly less than 2 megabytes long. To get it, anonymous FTP to host SIMTEL-20, and retrieve MICRO:STAR.DOC, and the eight files MICRO:STARn.DAT, n = 1 to 8 (It's in eight separate files because it was originally distributed on floppy disk.) These are text files, and the format is explained in the documentation file. By the way, SIMTEL-20 doesn't do directory listings over FTP for these directories. - Mike ----END OF FORWARDED MESSAGES---- ------------------------------ Date: 15 Nov 1984 1210-PST From: Richard M. King Subject: The Shadow of the Asteroid To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA I recall that several months ago a 200KM or so asteroid was due to pass in front of a certain star, as seen from some points in the US. People were being asked to record precise occultation times. Does anyone have the results of this or know where such can be found? Dick ------------------------------ Date: Thu 15 Nov 84 18:34:53-EST From: Martin J Mahoney Subject: Space Stations To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA I read in the New York Times yesterday that a Congressional committee said , and i paraphrase, That the space station as conceived by NASA is too ambitious and it lacks clearly defined goals and it cost too much. And that the only reason NASA is pushing it is to maintain a large budget. The conceed however some structure in space is needed but they want more studying done. I think it might be a wise idea for us who are in favor of such a station to notify our congressional representatives of such, and that we would not look very favorably on their voting against it. The time for studying is over the time for action has begun. Martin P.S. If enough people want to see the actual text of the article I'll be willing to type it in. Martin ------------------------------ Date: 15 Nov 84 18:56:04 EST From: BIESEL@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: Satellite Data needed. To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: biesel@RUTGERS.ARPA I'd appreciate any pointers to machine readable data, either online or on tape, which will give me the orbital elements of the moons of all the planets. High precision data would be especially welcome, as would orbital elements of some asteroids. Regards, Pete. ------- ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 17-Nov-84 0432 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #41 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 41 Today's Topics: Newspaper non-readers moonshine M-objects ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 16 Nov 84 09:22:02-EST From: J. Noel Chiappa Subject: Newspaper non-readers To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: JNC@MIT-XX.ARPA This may be a bit off track for space, but it was prompted by the first message in today's digest. I have a different concern. I find it a bit discouraging that people are so turned off that they don't make any attempt to try and find reasonable newspapers. I have spent portions of my life in places where 'good' papers were not available easily, and I always managed to hunt up something. These days, things are moving so fast, etc, that it almost seems a necessity (ley alone the duty of a citizen, to use a hackneyed phrase) to keep up with what is going on. I can understand the mass of people turning off because it's out of their speed, but when people at our level start doing it I think real trouble can't be far off. Noel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 84 16:07:51 EST From: Craig MacFarlane Subject: moonshine To: space@mit-mc.arpa Hello, Does anybody out there know what light frequencies are reflected by the moon? Also, if the phases effect more than just the amount... Thanks, [raig ------------------------------ Date: Fri 16 Nov 84 15:31:51-CST From: Larry Smith Subject: M-objects To: space@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Can someone give me a pointer to a list of the Messier objects and their locations? ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 18-Nov-84 0402 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #42 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 42 Today's Topics: Reading Newspapers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun 18 Nov 84 00:58:16-PST From: Bob Larson Subject: Reading Newspapers To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA I am another person who does not read the newspapers and likes seeing the clippings in SPACE digest. I also do not watch the sunrise every day to see if it is still there. (I can't stay up that late much anymore since I have a full time job.) I have absolutely no interest if the Dogers beat the Raiders in a hockey game. When someone starts a cheap, fully automated clipping service (probably electronically) then the need for the news articles in SPACE will be gone. Currently it's cheaper to get 10 pounds of paper each weak for the possibility of one or two interesting articles. I have better things to do with my time, such as reading my science fiction collection. If the world ends, I'll eventually find out about it. Bob Larson ------- ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 19-Nov-84 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #43 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 43 Today's Topics: alternatives to newspapers Job Opportunities ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 18 Nov 84 16:51:25 EST From: Joe Pistritto To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: alternatives to newspapers I too prefer getting the articles in SPACE digest, however, I have a better solution the news problem than reading newspapers, (AUGH! poundage with editorial slant thrown in), listen to the BBC They have a 'short' (7 minute) or so summary of all the important!! stuff, and there are NO commercials, its on every hour (about 22/day). Try 6175Khz some evening... -JCP- ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 84 16:46:51 EST From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Job Opportunities To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A Possible Job Opportunities in Space Development Interested in working on the design of space systems for the 1990's and beyond? Are you looking for challenging opportunities to work on concepts such as second-generation shuttles, heavy- lift launch vehicles, orbital transfer vehicles, space platforms, and lunar base? Several new openings may be occuring in early 1985 at Rockwell International's STS Division in Downey, California. We are interested in receiving resumes from persons who would be willing to work in the Advanced Engineering Department on issues crucial to long-term space development; and we need to know if we can actually staff these projects. Ideally, candidates would be trained in aerospace engineering with strong backgrounds in economics or operations research. We welcome inquiries from persons with a variety of quantitative backgrounds (B.S. or B.A. degree minimum, master's or higher preferred) however, such as physics, chemistry, mathematics, biology, behaviorial sciences, engineering or economics. We need competant, well-rounded generalists with vision to work on the technical, and economic details of space development. Preference may be given to members of the L5 Society, National Space Institute, or other activist organizations. Send inquiries to: Wally McClure/Scott Pace Rockwell International 041-AA96 12214 Lakewood Blvd. Downey, CA 90241 ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 20-Nov-84 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #44 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 44 Today's Topics: Re: M-objects ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 19 Nov 84 13:08:44 PST (Monday) From: lynn.es@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: M-objects To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: lynn.es@XEROX.ARPA I have a list of the Messier objects on line, which I can send in a lengthy message to anyone interested. All I need is an address reachable through Arpanet. /Don Lynn ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 21-Nov-84 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #45 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 45 Today's Topics: Re: The Shadow of the Asteroid Re: M-object Shuttle audio-rebroadcast ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Nov 84 11:34:01 PST (Tuesday) From: lynn.es@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: The Shadow of the Asteroid To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: DKING@KESTREL.ARPA, lynn.es@XEROX.ARPA "I recall that several months ago a 200KM or so asteroid was due to pass in front of a certain star, as seen from some points in the US ... Does anyone have the results of this or know where such can be found?" I have checked the last two issues of the quarterly newsletter of the International Occultation Timing Association (IOTA, address: P.O. Box 3392, Columbus, Ohio 43210-0392) for reports of observed asteroid occultations of stars. This organization puts out lists of predictions of such events ahead of time and then collects observations. Unfortunately the geometry of the situation makes it so that even with well-tracked asteroids and well-measured stars the typical error in prediction of the point on earth to observe the event is roughly 1000 miles. High accuracy measurements of a single photograph of both objects (which can only be taken days ahead as they approach) can reduce the error to under a hundred miles. This tells you why in the last issue, reports were made of attempts to observe 31 events (not counting cloud-outs) and only 6 occultations were actually seen. Only one of those was in the USA, and that was asteroid Interamnia (diameter about 300 km) on August 5. That was only seen by one observer. It takes observations by two or more to get accurate asteroid sizes, and by dozens to get accurate asteroid shapes. The previous issue of the newsletter gave 40 attempts, 4 positive occultation sightings, and 3 possible ones (might have been cloud effects). None of the sightings were in the USA. So I don't think I can identify the particular event that the question refers to. It is possible that it refers to one of last year's events. There were two events observed in the USA by many persons last year, resulting in good size and shape data. They were asteroids Pallas (diameter about 520 km) and Nemausa (169 x 121 km. Note that a few years ago the diameter was believed to about 73 km). The results were written up in Sky & Telescope, p. 270 Sept. 83, and p. 576 Dec. 83. Some results from the previous year, and predictions for the next are published in Sky & Telescope every January issue (p. 60-61 in January 84). /Don Lynn ------------------------------ Date: 20 Nov 84 18:07:44 PST (Tuesday) From: lynn.es@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: M-object To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: lynn.es@XEROX.ARPA, Richard M. King Since I have been asked what the M-objects are ... if you know, read no farther -- M stands for Messier, a famous French astronomer of the late 1700s. As part of his interest in comets, he began collecting a list of objects in the sky that looked like comets but weren't, such as galaxies or distant clusters that could be seen only as a diffuse glow, not as separate stars. Eventually, he became interested in all non-stellar objects (which includes ones that are really stars, but are not completely resolvable as such in a small telescope). His list of 103 non-stellar objects got published in parts in a French astronomical journal, and that is the Messier list. For various reasons, a few objects have been added or thrown out, so modern copies of the list have from 99 to 114 objects in them. Messier's work inspired Herschel, who with a much bigger telescope, made a list of thousands of such objects. After Herschel's list, and subsequent revisions, Messier's list lost significance, until modern times when amateur astronomers with small telescopes found Messier's list to be just what they needed for fun star gazing. The list contains a supernova remnant, several globular star clusters, several open star clusters, a few emission nebulae, a star cloud (bright patch of milky way), a reflection nebula, a few planetary nebulae, a couple of mistakes (stars, but no nebulosity), and a whole bunch of galaxies. /Don Lynn ------------------------------ Message-Id: <8411210256.AA29483@decwrl.ARPA> Date: 20-Nov-1984 2156 From: rabahy%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (David Rabahy) To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Shuttle audio-rebroadcast ================================================================================ TOPS32::MARKS Space Shuttle News 20-NOV-1984 13:18 Note #26 -< Shuttle audio on shortwave >- No responses -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The amateur radio club at the Goddard Spaceflight center in Maryland (callsign WA3NAN) rebroadcasts the shuttle audio from a NASA feed for most (if not all) missions. If you have a shortwave radio listen on the following frequencies: 3860 KHZ 7185 KHZ 14295 KHZ 21390 KHZ (maybe) For this area the 3860 freq is best during the hours of darkness, and 7185 or 14295 during the day, depending on propagation conditions. The transmissions are all SSB (not AM) so you may not be able to copy them on all radios, but any amateur or shortwave listing receiver will have no trouble - the WA3NAN rigs put out a terrific signal. /Maurice (KV1D) ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 22-Nov-84 0404 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #46 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 46 Today's Topics: Re: M-object Space Telescope ---------------------------------------------------------------------- id AA28803; Wed, 21 Nov 84 09:49:13 pst id AA25328; Wed, 21 Nov 84 09:49:33 pst Date: Wed, 21 Nov 84 09:49:33 pst From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) Message-Id: <8411211749.AA25328@ucbkim.ARPA> To: lynn.es@XEROX.ARPA, Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Re: M-object Cc: DKING@KESTREL.ARPA "As part of his interest in comets", foo. The extended story is a little better. What happened was that Messier kept discovering "comets" and getting very excited; each time, after he had observed the "comet" for a week or so, he discovered that the object was stationary with respect to the fixed stars. Hence, no comet. AFter this had happened a fiar number of times, he decided to make a list of these annoying comet-like objects, so that he and future comet-hunters wouldn't be fooled again, at least not by the same objects. This is almost as good as the story of Olber's paradox, which I'll write up if sufficient numbers of people request it. Write to me, not the net, if you either do/don't want to hear the story of Olber... Rick. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 1984 at 1329-EST Subject: Space Telescope From: jim at TYCHO.ARPA (James B. Houser) To: space at mit-mc A couple of weeks ago I attended a lecture at the Space Telescope Institute. It did not leave me with a very comfortable feeling about the project. The program has several major problems and a plethora of minor ones. The big concerns include long delays in assembling a high resolution star map, and an extremely tight pointing and tracking requirement. They also appear to be not addressing a number of smaller issues such as light emmisions by platform materials (as detected on the shuttle). These things, added to the persistant rumours about problems at Perkin Elmer tend to make me somewhat less than optimistic. On the good side, if it all comes together the Institute seems to have put together a good organization for operating the telescope research effort. Look for at least a six month delay in launching. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 23-Nov-84 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #47 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 47 Today's Topics: Space Business ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thursday, 22 November 1984 14:12:31 EST From: Hans.Moravec@cmu-ri-rover.arpa To: space@s1-a.arpa Subject: Space Business Message-ID: <1984.11.22.19.10.48.Hans.Moravec@cmu-ri-rover.arpa> n115 2226 20 Nov 84 AM-NASA By PHILIP M. BOFFEY c.1984 N.Y. Times News Service WASHINGTON - The National Aeronautics and Space Administration Tuesday announced a new policy designed to speed commercial use of space. It described the move as the next major step in the American space program. The policy document sets forth a series of plans to expand private investment in space activities and to reduce the technical, financial and institutional risks of doing business in space. ''The new chapter in the U.S. space program that opened early in this decade with the first flights of the shuttle is now reaching a new phase,'' the document says. ''Space technology is ripe for its transition from exploration to major exploitation, from experimentation to expanded profitable commercial uses.'' The agency's new ''Commercial Use of Space Policy'' is intended to carry out a broad national space commercialization policy announced July 20 by President Reagan, who exulted that the benefits of space commercialization ''literally dazzle the imagination.'' It also follows through on recent congressional legislation that directed the agency to seek and encourage the fullest commercial use of space. The space agency said it would reduce the financial risks of doing business in space by offering reduced-rate flights in the research and development phases of commercial products and by providing seed financing for commercial ventures. It will also cut the time needed to integrate commercial payloads into the shuttle flight schedule to six months and will let the commercial concern decide how much reliability should be built into the payload hardware. The agency said it would reduce technical risks by aggressively supporting and conducting ''research directly aimed at enhancing and encouraging commercial space endeavors'' and by easing commercial access to the space agency's own experimental facilities, among other steps. Perhaps its most imaginative research initiative is a plan to establish several advanced research institutes, operated jointly by the agency and by industry or academic sponsors, to perform research on materials that might be used or manufactured in space and on other processes of potential commercial significance. Industry would be expected to share in the financing. To reduce institutional risks, the agency said it would remove various bureaucratic impediments and maintain more conistent policies toward the commercialization of space. The new policy is being supervised by the newly established Office of Commercial Programs under the direction of Isaac T. Gillam 4th, the space agency's assistant administrator for commercial programs. nyt-11-21-84 0122est *************** ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 24-Nov-84 0404 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #48 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 48 Today's Topics: L5 Society Pgh L5 Bulliten Board ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sender: Tague@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA Date: Wed, 21 Nov 84 22:59 MST From: Tague%pco@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: L5 Society To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Message-ID: <841122055951.647352@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA> How can I find out more about the L5 Society? Can they be contacted over the ARPANet? -Michael ------------------------------ Date: 23 Nov 84 16:09:56 EST From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Pgh L5 Bulliten Board To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A Pittsburgh L5 has just brought a CBB online. Anyone who wishes to connect may dial 412-366-9066 and leave messages for anyone in our group. We have hopes that this communications net will expand as there are several other tentative chapter BBoards in the winds, as well as a committee to study L5 computer communications in general. The committee was formed at the Northeast Regional Conference here in October. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 25-Nov-84 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #49 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 49 Today's Topics: Xmas sky show Pgh BBoard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Nov 84 1232 PST From: Ron Goldman Subject: Xmas sky show To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA n123 2214 23 Nov 84 BC-HUMANITIES-(Balt.) By Albert Sehlstedt, Jr. c. 1984 The Baltimore Sun Greenbelt, Md. - Scientists plan to create a chartreuse ''comet'' 72,000 miles above the atmosphere Christmas morning as part of an experiment to study the effects of the sun's energy on the Earth's environs. The comet, visible in the western United States but not in the East, will consist of barium vapor released from one of three satellites which have been studying the interaction of the solar wind with the Earth's magnetosphere. The solar wind, blowing at a million miles an hour, is an outpouring of electrified particles from the sun that continuously interact with the magnetosphere, a broad region around the globe influenced by the Earth's magnetic field. Scientists believe the on-rush of the solar wind against the magnetic field may affect the world's weather in ways not yet fully understood. If the skies are clear Christmas morning, the man-made comet should be visible at 4:18 A.M. PST for 10 to 20 minutes west of a line extending northward from Mexico City and running through Houston, St. Louis, Mo., and Milwaukee, according to the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.. People as far west as Hawaii should be able to see the yellow-green cloud, which will appear to be about one-sixth the diameter of the moon. The barium cloud will not be visible in the East because the sky will be too bright at that hour - 7:18 A.M., EST. One of the necessary conditions for seeing the barium comet is darkness on the ground and sunlight on the comet, explained Dr. Mario H. Acuna, a physicist at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center here. Dr. Acuna said the Christmas morning release of the barium vapor was selected to satisfy several scientific and technical demands - including clear observations of the comet by big telescopes at the Kitt Peak observatory near Tucson, Ariz., and at Palomar Mountain, Calif. He and his associates call the barium cloud a comet because they expect it to develop a long tail and move across the sky as a natural comet would. However, unlike the real comets which orbit the sun, it will be visible for only a few minutes. The ''intent'' of the experiment, he continued ''is to study how a dense, cold plasma electrified gas interacts with the solar wind.'' That kind of an interaction ''is representative of situations that occur elsewhere in the solar system,'' the Goddard physicist explained. Jupiter and Saturn, for example, also have magnetospheres. The Christmas comet experiment is part of a larger space physics study involving three satellites of three nations, the United States, West Germany and Britain. The three craft were launched into orbit by the same Delta rocket August 16 at Cape Canaveral, Fla. The Christmas experiment will begin when the German craft releases the barium at a point in the sky that approximates the the outer boundary of the magnetosphere - some 72,000 miles above the Earth. The release will be analyzed by instruments aboard the British satellite, which will be another orbit traveling three minutes behind the German craft, and by the American satellite, in a third orbit. Dr. Acuna and his associates have pointed out that one advantage of the test is the fact that the scientists are experimenting with a known quantity of a particularly substance, as would be done in a conventional laboratory. Most previous experiments in space have been observations of entirely natural phenomena that occur independently of human activity and are, therefore, less readily understood. The three-satllite study was conceived by Dr. S. M. Kremigis, a scientist at the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory, in collaboration with researchers at Germany's Max Planck Institute for Extraterrestrial Physics. End Humanities. nyt-11-24-84 0110est *************** ------------------------------ Date: 24 Nov 84 16:00:24 EST From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Pgh BBoard To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A Due to some technical difficulties (ie the well known mismated cables) the Pgh L5 bboard startup has been delayed until Sun 11/25/84. If any furthur difficulties arise, I'll keep you all posted. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 28-Nov-84 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #50 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 50 Today's Topics: ERROR, ERROR!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Nov 84 11:52:03 EST From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: ERROR, ERROR!!! To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A Sorry folks, but the original number promised by the phone company was changed by the time our system went in, and no one bothered to tell me: CBB 412-366-6099 ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 29-Nov-84 0404 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #51 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 51 Today's Topics: the story of Olbers... More Strangeness... HOTOL Obler's paradox ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Nov 84 12:49:03 pst From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) Message-Id: <8411282049.AA16403@ucbkim.ARPA> To: space@mit-mc Subject: the story of Olbers... In response to numerous requests, here is the story of Olbers.... Messier and Olbers didn't know each other, as far as I know, and their stories are pretty well unrelated, except: (1) they were more-or-less contemporaries; (2) they were both comet and/or planet hunters; (3) They were both frustrated in their principal ambitions; and (4) they became famous for work they considered minor and/or foolish. We all know about Messier and his famous list of annoying false comets. Olbers story is a little different. He actually did discover 5 minor comets, one of which bears his name. He also was a member of the German consortium that was organized to search for Ceres (the consortium that was beaten, oddly enough, by an Italian comet-hunter named Giuseppe Piazzi, who was - you guessed it - not looking for Kepler's suspected planet but rather for comets). In any case, Olbers in his disappointment decided to amuse himself with idle speculation. Let us, he said, assume: (1) The universe is infinite in extent; (2) The stars are spread evely throughout the universe; (3) In any given volume of the universe, the average luminescence of stars is about the same. Now, at the time, all of these assumptions looked pretty good. But what was the conclusions? Well, Olbers said, consider the amount of light delivered to the earth by the stars at a given distance r. The first thing to note is hat they have an average luminosity l, which by assumption 3 is invariant wrt r: hence the total light delivered is nl/r^2, where n is the total number of stars at distance r. By assumption (2), n = kr^2, where k is some constant. Hence the total light delivered is kr^2l/r^2, or kl: *not dependent on r*. Hence, the total light delivered by all the stars at some distance r from the earth is a constant kl. Hence the total light delivered to earth is: integral from 0 to R kl dr, or klR where R is the radius of the universe. But assumption (1) says that R is infinite, and hence *the total amount of light delivered to the earth should be infinite*. This does not only mean that you should be able to read a newspaper by the light of the silvery sky at night. Nosiree. If Olbers' reasoning really was correct, then we'd be fried, parboiled, cooked... So where did Olbers go wrong? Or, better put, what assumption is wrong and why? All three assumptions turn out to be wrong, but which one is critical turns out to be surprising. I will send out a letter tomorrow, detailing not only the right ansswer (why Olbers was wrong), but also giving the story of the false leads that were pursued. More later... Rick. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Nov 84 17:00:07 EST From: DIETZ@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: More Strangeness... To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA There is an article in the Dec. 1 Physical Review (page 2379) by Farhi and Jaffe called "Strange Matter". Their rough calculations suggest that bulk quark matter with approximately equal numbers of u,d and s quarks is absolutely stable. If such matter exists, it won't be easy to detect on earth, since any piece more than about 5 angstroms across (massing about 5e-7 grams) could not be supported by atomic forces against gravity. Larger chunks would sink right to the center of the earth (or pass right through). If these junks are common they are very likely inside asteroids, and could be retrieved by simply nudging the asteroid to one side. Large enough chunks could supply real gravity (no centrifugal force nonsense), and energy could be produced by bombarding the chunks with neutrons or, possibly, medium energy protons. This could be the most important reason yet for going into space. ------- ------------------------------ Date: 28 Nov 84 16:52:09 EST From: DIETZ@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: HOTOL To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA According to New Scientist magazine (Nov. 15, page 3) British Aerospace is working on two reusable launcher designs for use starting in the 1990's. The launchers, called Mach 3 and HOTOL (HOrizontal Take Off and Landing) will carry seven tonne payloads in LEO. Both vehicles would take off and land horizontally, and could fly with or without astronauts. Neither would jettison fuel tanks. Mach 3 would have two disposable solid rocket boosters similar to those used on the Ariane 3, along with internal LH/LOX tanks and closed cycle cryogenic engines. Mach 3 is a development vehicle for HOTOL, which would be full reusable. According to New Scientist, Rolls-Royce has designed air breathing engines for HOTOL that are, unfortunately, classified. BAe hopes to charge 4 million pounds per HOTOL launch, or about $700 per payload kilogram. Mach 3 would be more expensive. Development costs for the two vehicles (together) are estimated at 4,000 million pounds. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Nov 1984 20:18:17-EST From: Hans.Moravec@CMU-RI-ROVER To: space@s1-a Subject: Obler's paradox By an amazing co-incidence there is a nice long article by E. R. Harrison in the November 23 Science, titled "The Dark Night-Sky Riddle: A 'Paradox' That Resisted Solution" (pp 941-945) for those that want to supplement their electronic reading. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 30-Nov-84 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #52 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 52 Today's Topics: FCC Denies Extraterrestrial Paging Proposal ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 11:51:05 CST Date: Thu, 29 Nov 84 09:49:26 PST From: David Alpern To: Space@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: FCC Denies Extraterrestrial Paging Proposal On August 7, 1984, Beeple, Inc. d/b/a On Page Enterprises (On-Page) filed a request for Special Temporary Authority to operate a common carrier one-way paging station at Sudbury, Massachusetts on 900 MHz reserve frequency 930.0125 MHz. The purpose of this is to offer specialized extraterrestrial communications service to the public. On-Page proposes to transmit binary digitized radio messages of 25 words or less, photographs or drawings, "to the Sun, the Moon, any of the planets in our solar system, or any designated star outside the solar system." The message to be transmitted by On-Page would be provided by its customers. A copy of the transmission would be mailed to a recipient specified by the customer. The Common Carrier Bureau has denied On-Page's request, noting that they had not demonstrated that extraordinary circumstances exist requiring temporary operations in the public interest or that delay in the institution of such temporary operations would seriously prejudice the public interest. On-Page's request will be treated as an application for developmental authority and has been assigned File No. 24719-CD-P/L-84. An amendment to the application was filed on September 11, 1984 --FCC Public Notice issued September 1, 1984. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 01-Dec-84 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #53 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 53 Today's Topics: Re: the story of Olbers... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Nov 84 14:10:54 PST (Friday) From: lynn.es@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: the story of Olbers... To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: lynn.es@XEROX.ARPA, mcgeer%ucbkim@UCB-VAX.ARPA McGeer tells the Olbers story well, but in defense of Messier, I should point out that he was a bona fide success at comet hunting, and was recognized as such in his time. As McGeer mentions, NOW comet hunting is not what he is remembered for, and one might mistakenly assume that Messier wasn't much of a comet finder. He discovered 21 comets, though some were also independently discovered by others, and by today's well-defined rules of discovery and announcement, he is usually credited with 15. That puts him among the greatest comet hunters. And he almost certainly would have found one more that was discovered at another observatory while Messier stayed with his wife the night she died. He was said to have deeply regretted that decision. Just because Messier set records for finding non-comets doesn't mean he missed the real ones. Sort of like Babe Ruth setting both the strike-out records and the home-run records. /Don Lynn ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 03-Dec-84 0402 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #54 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 54 Today's Topics: Re: the story of Olbers... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 53 Today's Topics: Re: the story of Olbers... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Nov 84 14:10:54 PST (Friday) From: lynn.es@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: the story of Olbers... To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: lynn.es@XEROX.ARPA, mcgeer%ucbkim@UCB-VAX.ARPA McGeer tells the Olbers story well, but in defense of Messier, I should point out that he was a bona fide success at comet hunting, and was recognized as such in his time. As McGeer mentions, NOW comet hunting is not what he is remembered for, and one might mistakenly assume that Messier wasn't much of a comet finder. He discovered 21 comets, though some were also independently discovered by others, and by today's well-defined rules of discovery and announcement, he is usually credited with 15. That puts him among the greatest comet hunters. And he almost certainly would have found one more that was discovered at another observatory while Messier stayed with his wife the night she died. He was said to have deeply regretted that decision. Just because Messier set records for finding non-comets doesn't mean he missed the real ones. Sort of like Babe Ruth setting both the strike-out records and the home-run records. /Don Lynn ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 05-Dec-84 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #55 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 55 Today's Topics: Re: the story of Olbers... OTA Civilian Space Study five good reason for vigorous u.s. involvement in space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Dec 84 18:17:40 pst From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) Message-Id: <8412030217.AA04191@ucbkim.ARPA> To: lynn.es@XEROX.ARPA, Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Re: the story of Olbers... Cc: mcgeer%ucbkim@Berkeley, lynn.es@XEROX.ARPA The story of Olbers, Part II. Sorry it's been awhile, but it's the end of term and I have Stuff To Do. In any case, didn't mean to imply the Messier was a failed comet-hunter. Obviously anyone diligent enough to compile the list of M-objects is enough of an observer to have bagged a few comets. Olbers, by the way, discovered five comets himself, one of which bears his name. I haven't seen the Science article, by the way, but its title really is appropriate - Olbers' was a paradox that just wouldn't die. Herschel thought he'd killed it off by drawing a picture of a finite universe (what we now know as the galaxy), which, readers of the original article may remember, knocks out Olbers' first assumption: namely, that the universe is infinite, or, alternatively, the stars are spread evenly throughout the universe. And there the matter stayed until 1927; the universe was finite, hence the earth received a finite amount of light. Hence no paradox. But in 1927 Hubble discovered stars in Andromeda, and established that Andromeda was another galaxy 4 billion light years away. Soon enough other galaxies were discovered so that it could fairly be assumed that an infinite number of galaxies were spread evenly throughout the Universe, and suddenly Olbers' paradox was back in business again, with galaxies in place of stars. Oh. So what now? Various people pointed out that General Relativity described a finite but expanding universe, and hence the universe would still be finite. However, further calculation showed that due to the Lorentz contraction (which claims that the length of a moving object is foreshortened in the direction of travel), a finite universe could still hold and infinite number of galaxies, most of them (paper-thin) in the last few miles of the universe-sphere. In fact, sophisticated readers will note that the effect gets slightly worse, since the number of galaxies increases faster than the square of the radius; hence the earth would receive more, not less light, from the outer shells of galaxies, or, to put it better, the derivative of luminosity wrt to distance would be uniformly positive, not constant as Olbers would have it, nor negative as our prescence here requires. Others explained that interfering clouds of dust and gas would block light coming from behind them, but if the quantity of energy is large (and in Olbers' paradox it is non-finite) then the clouds of dust and gas would begin to heat and shine as well... In any case, the solution finally came out of the Doppler effect. The redshift in light is in fact a decrease in the energy of the photons emitted (by the quantum principle). Hence the intensity of the light emitted by a distant galaxy drops off asymptotically to zero as the galaxy's velocity nears c, which is to say as the edge of the universe approaches. Hence the integral is convergent and finite, and can be determined, incidentally, by taking your nearest pulse-counting photometer out and measuring the background light of the sky. Sudden thought: Olber's paradox plus the general nature of the Doppler shift should give us the shape of the Hubble curve with the parameter H left free. Since we know the definite integral, shouldn't this provide an independent estimate for the value of the Hubble constant H0? Anybody? Rick. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Dec 84 11:41:54 EST From: DIETZ@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: OTA Civilian Space Study To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA Electronic News, Dec. 3: Washington -- After spending $200 billion since the launch of its first spacecraft in 1958, the U.S. is fully capable of making major strides in the area of civilian space, but it is not adequately prepared to do so. This conclusion, in a new study of the future of space by the Congressional Office of Technology Assessment, prompts an OTA recommendation to "revisit" the 1958 Space Act to "lay out a set of new goals that are responsive to contemporary and foreseeable circumstances, interests and values." To encourage public discussionm OTA offered a half-dozen possible national space goals, as follows: o To increase the efficiency of space activities and reduce their net cost to the public; o To involve the public directly in space activities, both on Earth and in space; o To derive scientific, economic, social and political benefits; o To increase international cooperation and collaboration in and for space; o To study and explore the earth, the solar system and the greater physical universe; o To "spread life, in a responsible fashion, thoughout the solar system." OTA suggested, specifically, that a transportation service could be established to and from the Earth's Moon and "a modest human presence" posted there for scientific and other cultural and economic purposes. It reported that space probes could be used to obtain the information and experience required to plan further exploration of Mars and some asteroids. It added that all of the nonclassified and nonprivate communications from, and the nonproprietary data generated by, all government-supported spacecraft and satellites could be made widely available to the general public and educational institutions in near-real-time and at modest cost. Radio and optical free-space electromagnetic propagation techniques, said OTA, could be exploited in an attempt to allow reliable and economic long distance transmission of large amounts of electrical energy, both in space for use there, and from space, lunar and remote Earth locations for distribution throughout the world. OTA also suggested that space-related commericial-industrial sales in the private sector could be stimulated. [PFD: I wonder who wrote the OTA report? Sounds great.] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Dec 84 13:34:09 EST From: "Bob Czech" <939@NJIT-EIES.MAILNET> To: space@mit-mc Subject: five good reason for vigorous u.s. involvement in space Message-ID: [From Paul Levinson, the Western Behavioral Sciences Institute School of Management and Strategic Studies "Open Inquiry" Conference on EIES]: Herewith what I view to be some of the important arguments in favor of a vigorous space exploration and settlement program by the U.S. They're presented in no particular order, because each in its own way seems equally important: MORTALITY: Sooner or later our planet will become a cinder, or get otherwise clobbered (one hopes later rather than sooner, and from natural rather than humanly-produced catastrophe). It thus is eminently in our interest to extend our humanity beyond the planet in a way that sticks as soon as possible. Hitching our destiny to the stars may not guarantee our species absolute immortality (the cosmos may end someday too, whatever that means), but will certainly give us a lot longer shot than we have huddled down on this planet. HOMELAND: I love this planet, but I also recognize it is no more the be-all and end-all of my home than the neighborhood I was born in or city in which I now reside. The truest human home is the full cosmic context in which our planet exists. Heretofore we were technologically not capable of moving beyond the locale in which we happened to find ourselves. Now we are, and there's no reason we should not avail ourselves of this larger home. RESOURCES: Does it make sense to quarrel over dwindling resources on this planet when a veritable infinity of resources await us beyond. G. K. O'Neill made this point well in The High Frontier, and I also am reminded of Arthur C. Clarke's story about the caveman freezing to death on top of a bed of coal. Myopia in thinking about the future can be fatal. UNPERVERTING HISTORY: Assassin's bullets in 1963 and again in 1968 resulted in the incredible, tragic irony of a President who hated the space program presiding over the landing on the moon. So instead of that day serving as a glorious beginning to a new epoch, it was left rotting on the vine as an unpleasant reminder of the Kennedy vision. We can never get the Kennedys back, but we can redeem their vision if we choose. TOTALITARIAN COSMOS: The Soviets recently broke a record (their own) for humans in space, with cosmonauts returning in relatively good health after 237 days in their space station. Although the Soviets say there is no connection, the 237 day figure is significant: it's about what it takes to go to Mars in today's technologies. I have nothing against the Russians as a people, and indeed I think we must do everything in our power to communicate with each and get to know each other better, but the thought of a socialist totalitarian cosmos greeting a laggard Western democratic arrival in the 21st century doesn't appeal to me. It's not at all a question of blind nationalism or patriotism: it's the value of a cosmos explored and settled with democratic, laissez-faire as well as totalitarian, socialist values. Comments, criticisms, suggestions? -- Paul Levinson Faculty, WBSI-SMSS Lev%NJIT-EIES,Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 06-Dec-84 0404 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #56 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 56 Today's Topics: Re: the story of Olbers... Olbers' paradox space shuttle info needed.. Re: the story of Olbers... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Dec 84 10:26:32 PST (Wednesday) From: Wedekind.es@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: the story of Olbers... To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: Wedekind.es@XEROX.ARPA My memory of a recent Science article (issue, anyone?) differs somewhat from the explanation of Olber's paradox offered by Rick McGeer. After a lengthy harangue on why the phrase "Olber's paradox" is both a misattribution and a misnomer, the article states that the resolution to the puzzle is simply that the stars do not cover the sky. The roughly 10^20 stars in the visible universe (radius = c * age of universe) cover only about 10^-13 of the solid angle of the sky. With observed stellar distribution and sizes it would take about 10^60 of them to cover the sky completely. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed 5 Dec 84 15:20:39-EST From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Olbers' paradox To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: mcgeer%ucbkim@UCB-VAX.ARPA Rick McGeer challenges us to estimate Hubble's constant. Well, I don't know any of the actual numbers, but the symbolic calculation ought to be straightforward - after all, it's not yet 20 years since I was doing this stuff at Cambridge, so let's see whether the brain has been totally rotted by computer science... Assume a Newtonian universe, where galaxies at distance r from us are receding with velocity v, and v = H r where H is Hubble's constant. To simplify, I'll measure v in cees, ie c=1. Now, given a uniform distribution of matter (clumped a little into stars or galaxies, maybe) then the amount of matter in the volume element is 4 pi d r^2 dr ie 4 pi d v^2 / H^3 dv where "d" is the density. If we assume all matter radiates uniformly, then the energy will be proportional to this, neglecting the Doppler effect. The energy radiated is determined by Stefan's law : d sigma T^4 where T is the temperature and sigma is Stefan's constant. The amount of the energy that we see is calculable by the inverse square law as fraction 1/(4 pi r^2) (normalising for the square radian), ie 4 pi d sigma T^4 r^2 dr / 4 pi r^2 ie d sigma T^4 dr and for simplicity we can call "d sigma T^4" just "f" Hence, the total energy flux is integral[0,infinity] ( f dr ) which of course diverges. Now let's add the Doppler effect. The energy flux we perceive is proportional to the frequency, which is shifted by a factor sqrt((1-v)/(1+v)) (remember that c=1). This gives the total energy flux as integral[0,1/H] ( f sqrt((1-Hr)/(1+Hr)) dr ) ie (f/H) integral[0,1] ( sqrt((1-v)/(1+v)) dv ) since there is evidently a cutoff at v=1 or r=1/H. That integral converges, its value is (f/H).(pi/2-1). Ah, but wait! This is still a Newtonian universe, where a "uniform" distribution assumes that we perceive an equal density of matter in every volume element. But that is not so in a relativistic universe. A distant volume element appears contracted owing to the recession; ie it is thicker than we perceive. We should really assume the density is uniform according to the local metric m, where of course dr = dm sqrt(1-v^2) if the local frame of reference is receding at velocity v. Including that adjustment, we get (f/H) integral[0,1] ( f sqrt((1-v)/(1+v)) dv / sqrt(1-v^2) ) which gives (f/H).log(2), so the sky is still not an eye-searing ultraviolet. Would anyone like to plug in the numbers? Robert Firth ------- ------------------------------ Date: 5 December 1984 22:11-EST From: Herb Lin Subject: space shuttle info needed.. To: SPACE @ MIT-MC cc: LIN @ MIT-MC was there an instance where the shuttle didn't lift off due to a software problem? I seem to recall an incident, but can't cite it. more generally, I'm curious to know what software difficulties the shuttle has had operationally.. please reply to me directly, as I am not on the SPACE list. tnx. herb lin LIN@MIT-MC ------------------------------ id AA07274; Wed, 5 Dec 84 17:56:17 pst id AA10564; Wed, 5 Dec 84 17:58:09 pst Date: Wed, 5 Dec 84 17:58:09 pst From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) Message-Id: <8412060158.AA10564@ucbkim.ARPA> To: Wedekind.es@XEROX.ARPA, space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Re: the story of Olbers... Yes. The "solution" here is that it is claimed that there is a large, but finite, number of stars in the universe. Olbers assumed an infinite number of stars. If that is the case, then even if all the stars lie on the same radial, any insterstellar absorption medium will scatter the light, hence the smearing effect. I am not sure if the total mass of the universe is finite, in fact. If it is, then obviously Olbers' paradox is not a paradox. Reference for the stuff I passed on is Isaac Asimov's "The Black of Night" collected in "Of Time, Space, and Other Things", Avon, 1965. Rick. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 07-Dec-84 0402 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #57 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 57 Today's Topics: Re: space shuttle info needed.. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- id AA26645; Thu, 6 Dec 84 11:21:48 pst id AA02140; Thu, 6 Dec 84 11:23:34 pst Date: Thu, 6 Dec 84 11:23:34 pst From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) Message-Id: <8412061923.AA02140@ucbkim.ARPA> To: LIN@MIT-MC, SPACE@MIT-MC Subject: Re: space shuttle info needed.. Cc: LIN@MIT-MC was there an instance where the shuttle didn't lift off due to a software problem? I seem to recall an incident, but can't cite it. There was indeed. The first attempted flight of Columbia was postponed very late in the count because of a synchronization problem between the shuttle main computers and the backup computer. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 08-Dec-84 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #58 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 58 Today's Topics: Re: space shuttle info needed.. space shuttle info needed.. shuttle computer case history ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 07 Dec 84 09:06:16 PST (Fri) To: Herb Lin cc: SPACE@mit-mc Reply-To: hester@uci-icse Subject: Re: space shuttle info needed.. From: Jim Hester You might want to take a look at ``The "Bug" Heard 'Round the World'' which appeared in ACM SIGSOFT: Software Engineering Notes, Vol 6 No 5, October 1981. As I recall, it details a timing problem between the onboard computers that occurred sometimes during booting. It never happened when testing, but happened when they were booted up for the first flight. ------------------------------ Date: 7 December 1984 15:37-EST From: Herb Lin Subject: space shuttle info needed.. To: mcgeer @ UCBKIM cc: SPACE @ MIT-MC many thanks for the pointer... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 84 15:24 CDT From: Mike_Linnig To: space@mit-mc.ARPA cc: linnig%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: shuttle computer case history > was there an instance where the shuttle didn't lift off due to a > software problem? I seem to recall an incident, but can't cite it. > > >There was indeed. The first attempted flight of Columbia was postponed very >late in the count because of a synchronization problem between the shuttle >main computers and the backup computer. > There was an excellent description of the Shuttles onboard computer system, it's design, history, and problems in the September 1984 edition of the Communications of the ACM. -- Mike < linnig%ti-eg@csnet-relay > ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 12-Dec-84 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #59 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 59 Today's Topics: TV news story about planet discovered? J.Carson beats news! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent: to SU-AI.ARPA by IMSSS.? via ETHERNET with PUPFTP; 84-12-11 12:33:32 PST (=GMT-8hr) Date: 84-12-11 12:32:36 PST (=GMT-8hr) Message-id: SU-IMSSS.REM.A131735220434.G0348 From: Robert Elton Maas To: SPACE@MIT-MC Subject: TV news story about planet discovered? Reply-to: REM%IMSSS@SU-SCORE.ARPA I know I deserve to lose, watching channel 5 (KPIX) news, but I happened to have it on after watching channel 4 (KRON) news just before and switched over while fixing breakfast. Anyway, according to KPIX, astronomers in Arizona report discovering a planet about the size of Jupiter but with ten times the mass of Jupiter orbiting another star about a trillion (i.e. 1E12) miles away. The story didn't say where the astronomers were specifically (I assume Kitt Peak) nor what star it was. It did say this story is important because it's the first time a planet has been directly observed around another star besides the Sun. Well, a lightyear is about 5.878E12 miles, so the alleged star with planet is about 0.17 lightyears away. Well, ain't no such star!! The nearest known star (except the Sun) is 4.3 lightyears (25 trillion miles) away. Discovering a new star 25 times as close as Alpha Centauri would be big news, so I'm sure this story is messed up. Does anybody know if there really is a story in there, or this is just a big lie?? (Reply to me directly, I'm not on the SPACE-ENTHUSIASTS mailing list currently.) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 1984 2347-PST From: Rem@IMSSS Subject: J.Carson beats news! To: SPACE%MIT-MC@SCORE J.Carson, on his monologue tonight, gave a better report than the TV news I complained about earlier today. J.Carson says it was Kitt Peak (which I guessed from the other report), but more importantly it is 21 lightyears away (163 trillion miles), which sounds a lot more reasonable than the 1 trillion mile distance reported on the news. -- Now let me see if I can guess what star it might be... Darn, the chart in Sky&Telescope shows all known stars out to only 17 LY, and only 1st magnitude or brighter beyond that. Vega is 26.5 LY and Fomalhaut 22.6 LY, and nothing else on the chart is remotely similar in distance, so I can't guess what star it might be. I guess I gotta search the news service at SU-AI to get the correct story, unless it's in the newspaper... Nope, not even a mention in Tuesday aftermoon's Times-Tribune. ------- ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 13-Dec-84 0406 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #60 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 60 Today's Topics: New Planet Re: TV news story about planet discovered? Extrasolar planet discovery How the moon formed new planet ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Dec 84 14:04 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: New Planet To: Space@MIT-MC.ARPA Message-ID: <841212200448.864516@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> All the particulars I could find about newly discovered planet: Name : VB 8B Size : "about as big as Jupiter" Mass : "30 to 80 times as heavy" (as Jupiter) Surface Temp. : 2000 degrees F (considered a "brown dwarf" - too small and cool to be a real star) Star system : Van Biesbroeck 8 (Named for George Van BiesBroeck, the Belgian-born American astronomer that discovered it in 1961) Distance : 21 light years Leader of research team : Donald W. McCarthy, Jr., Univ. of Arizona Telescope : 158-inch at Kitt Peak Technique : speckle interferometry, which detects infrared Technical article : Astrophysical Journal Letters, March issue Brett Slocum ------------------------------ Date: Wed 12 Dec 84 14:09:50-EST From: Michael Rubin Subject: Re: TV news story about planet discovered? To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA "All Things Considered" last night said the object was a brown (infrared) dwarf about the size of Jupiter but around 5 times the mass, and it orbits some small boring star 21 lightyears away. Sorry folks, that's not a planet, it's a STAR - surface temperature was reported as 2000 degrees Fahrenheit. They said it was discovered at Kitt Peak by using speckle interferometry in the near infrared; I'm surprised IRAS didn't see it. We'll probably have to wait for next week's SCIENCE NEWS for the whole story. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 84 15:53:10 EST From: DIETZ@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: Extrasolar planet discovery To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA The star around which the purported planet was found is Van Biesbroeck 8 (spelling?). The VB stars are among the dimmest known. The star VB 10 was, until recently, the star with the lowest known absolute magnitude. Sky and Telescope had an article on dim stars last year or earlier this year which mentions VB's list. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 84 16:03:53 EST From: DIETZ@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: How the moon formed To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA The latest Science magazine has an interesting article on the formation of the Moon. This question has been puzzling planetary scientists for quite some time. The classical hypotheses were: splitting of the moon from a rapidly spinning protoearth, capture of a moon formed elsewhere, or formation of the moon along with the earth in the same place in the cloud of rock and gas from which the solar system condensed. All these theories have fatal problems. The new theory says a large body, up to Mars-size, collided with the earth during the final stages of planetary formation. A grazing impact of such a body with Earth would propel perhaps twice the mass of the moon into earth orbit. Gases generated during the impact would impart prolonged acceleration to the debris, allowing stable orbits to form (an impulsive collision with no "afterburn" would leave all debris in earth-intersecting or earth-escape orbits). Once in orbit, debris collisions cause the ring to spread out. About half the debris falls back to earth, the rest collecting beyond the Roche limit where the moon can form. Tidal interactions over geological time propel the moon to its present position. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 12 Dec 84 14:31:26-PST From: Wilkins Subject: new planet To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: rem%imsss@SU-SCORE.ARPA Well, they don't tell us the star, but they do give the constellation which should narrow your search considerably . . . David a058 10-Dec-84 13:40 SCIENCE Undated--PLANET-American scientists have discovered what they believe is the first planet detected outside of the solar system. The astronomers, using infrared telescopes, have located a huge mass orbiting another dim and distant star in the constellation Ophiuchus, according to the Univrsity of Arizona and the Nationa Science Foundation. For years astronomers have searched the sky to see if other stars besides the Sun have planets. All theories of possible intelligent extraterrestrial life are based on the premise that such extra-solar planetary systems exist and may even be fairly common in the universe. The team of discovering astronomers, led by Donald W. McCarthy Jr. of the University of Arizona, reportd that the object is a gaseous body resembling the planet Jupiter in appearance and substance. It is about nine-tenths the size of Jupiter but 30 to 80 times as massive. The object is about 600 million miles from the star it orbits, known as Van Biesbroeck 8. The star is a faint body in the Milky Way about 21 light years from Earth. If the starhad been brighter, the astronomers said, its companion would probably have remained undetected in the glow. As it was, the object was detected and studied several times by infrared telescopes at two different observatories, the Kitt Peak National Observatory in Arizona and the University of Arizona's Steward Observatory. McCarthy and group insist that it is a planet, though they want to make more observations in March. Other astronomers say it is too hot and massive to be classed as a planet, saying it is a ''brown dwarf.'' In either case, scientists said it represented a whole new class of astronomical objects and a ''fascinating'' discovery. 1,000.--by John Noble Wilford. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 15-Dec-84 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #61 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 61 Today's Topics: Pgh L5 Xmas Party ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Dec 84 20:05:53 EST From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Pgh L5 Xmas Party To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A For those of you who are fortunate enough to live nearby, our annual Christmas bash will be held Satuday night. A local SSI trustee is bringing what he claims is the original formula for V2 rocket fuel (mix grain alcohol and distilled water in appropriate proportions). Others may bring whatever they feel appropriate. So come and get launched where you can talk space and everybody knows what you're talking about!!! 6823 Thomas Blvd, Apt #4 Pittsburgh, PA (Point Breeze area) 19:30-?? Sat 12/15/84. | | (*) | |-------------------------- Thomas Blvd --- | | | | | | Dallas | | | --------------------------------- Penn Ave ---- Wilkinsburg-> / | | / 5th / PS: With a little luck, we'll have some video tapes from the Northeast Regional Conference playing. We might have some live music if a few folk or filk singers show up, but one can never tell... ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 18-Dec-84 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #62 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 62 Today's Topics: Upcoming Launches from the KSC ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael_D'Alessandro@Wayne-MTS Message-ID: <11491@Wayne-MTS> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 84 17:11:38 EST From: Michael_D'Alessandro%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Upcoming Launches from the KSC I'm going to be in Florida over vacation from December 25th to January 6th, and I would like to know if any launches are scheduled within that time period at the Kennedy Space Center. I don't believe the shuttle is supposed to go up that early in January, but are there any satellite launches scheduled within that timeframe? Any phone numbers I can call to find out? Michael D'Alessandro Dept. of Computer Science Wayne State University <>: Michael_D'Alessandro%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-Multics.ARPA (or if your mailer does not like apostrophes...) Userid=GD1B%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-Multics.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 19-Dec-84 0431 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #63 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 63 Today's Topics: Equinox Algorithm Request Nemesis ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Dec 84 16:05:46 PST (Mon) To: Space-Enthusiasts@mit-mc Subject: Equinox Algorithm Request From: "Tim Shimeall" Can anyone send me an algorithm for calculating when the spring equinox will be for an arbitrary year? It need only be accurate between 1900 and 2000 AD. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 18 December 1984 23:33:25 EST From: Hans.Moravec@cmu-ri-rover.arpa To: space@s1-a.arpa Subject: Nemesis Message-ID: <1984.12.19.4.30.49.Hans.Moravec@cmu-ri-rover.arpa> n127 0029 18 Dec 84 BC-NEMESIS 2takes (ScienceTimes) By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD c.1984 N.Y. Times News Service NEW YORK - With bounding curiosity and a theory to establish, astronomers are searching the northern skies for a star they call Nemesis, a small, dim companion of the Sun. Nemesis may or may not exist, but the quest goes on and soon will expand to the southern skies. Other astronomers, similarly inspired, have revived interest in finding Planet X, the putative body that has long been sought beyond Neptune and Pluto. They are examining new data from a spacecraft for evidence of the planet's existence. Some of the best minds of science are thus at play these nights and days in a provocative and promising attempt to understand how the heavens may hold the answer to what happened to the dinosaurs and, more important, what caused all the mass extinctions that, according to new fossil evidence, seem to afflict the Earth every 26 million years or so. This effort may lead to a new view of mass extinctions and their possibly decisive role in evolution. The informed imaginations of these scientists run to unseen heavenly forces, a star or planet yet to be discovered, that trigger a hail of comets through the solar system. Some of the comets collide with the Earth. The collisions fill the atmosphere with dust, blotting out sunlight for months and causing global death. This is a hypothesis in search of an activating mechanism, the source of the heavenly force. For several months now the possible mechanism that has stirred the greatest interest and debate is the one involving the Sun's theorized companion star, Nemesis. Or ''death star,'' as scientists sometimes call it. Some skeptical scientists, checking the feasibility of such a star causing such periodic havoc, have questioned whether Nemesis could maintain an orbit sufficiently stable to make a close approach to the near solar system precisely every 26 million years. But proponents, while modifying the hypothesis somewhat in an effort to satisfy these objections, insist that the Nemesis hypothesis could still hold the key to the mass extinctions that apparently occur in 26-million-year cycles. Richard A. Muller, a professor of astronomy and physics at the University of California at Berkeley, said: ''It's been demonstrated beyond all doubt that the orbit of Nemesis is sufficiently stable to do what we said the star would do. I think the case in favor of Nemesis has become much stronger.'' Muller, with Marc Davis of Berkeley and Piet Hut of the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton, proposed the Nemesis hypothesis a year ago in response to a stunning new paleontological study of mass extinctions. What happened is an arresting example of how science sometimes operates: one major hypothesis followed by another related one and, together, they inspire a third hypothesis of even grander aspect. In the 1970s, Walter Alvarez, a Berkeley geologist, found a layer of clay in Italy that contained unusually large amounts of the rare element iridium, which is more usually found in extraterrestrial bodies like asteroids. This led to the theory, advanced by him and his father, Luis Alvarez, a Nobel Prize-winning physicist, that an asteroid struck the Earth 65 million years ago, creating months of darkness that wiped out the dinosaurs and countless other species. Last year, after an exhaustive study of the fossil record going back 250 million years, J. John Sepkoski and David M. Raup, paleontologists at the University of Chicago, reported a previously unrecognized pattern to mass extinctions. They may not be random events, as had been supposed. They appeared to occur without fail every 26 million years. This was inexplicable. No earthly phenomenon was known to occur in such lengthy cycles. But the Alvarez asteroid hypothesis had conditioned scientists to consider extraterrestrial causes of earthly disasters, and so Sepkoski appealed to astrophysicists for suggestions. At first, Luis Alvarez decided the Sepkoski-Raup hypothesis of periodic extinctions was wrong. However, to check himself, he asked Muller to play devil's advocate, in the course of which Muller recalled becoming persuaded that the Sepkoski-Raup hypothesis was right. Muller and his associates then came up with a hypothetical situation that could account for such regular extinction patterns. Many stars, they knew, come in pairs, a smaller star orbiting the dominant one or two relatively equal bodies orbiting a common center of gravity. In astronomy these are called binary systems. What if the Sun had such a companion? Such an object, if far away and very small, only 5 to 10 percent as massive as the Sun, could easily have escaped notice. The companion star, they reasoned, could follow an eccentric orbit about one-and-a-half times as long as it is wide that would take it far out, as much as three light years from the Sun, and bring it back to the vicinity of the near solar system only once every 26 million years. It would make its closest approach out beyond the known planets in the midst of the cloud of comets believed to exist there. No one has seen this cometary cloud, but astronomers assume from the trajectories of known comets that they must come from that region, known as the Oort Cloud. As the companion star passed in or close to the cloud, according to the hypothesis, its gravitational force would jostle hundreds of thousands of the comets and send many of them careering in toward the Sun and impacts on the planets. (MORE) nyt-12-18-84 0329est *************** n128 0039 18 Dec 84 BC-NEMESIS 1stadd NYT NEW YORK: the planets. The last time this must have happened, judging by the Sepkoski-Raup interpretation of the fossil record, was about 13 million years ago. Thus, Nemesis would now be at the farthest point in its orbit and not due back for another 13 million years. In articles and letters published recently in the British journal Nature, several scientists cast doubt on the hypothesis by pointing out that such an elongated orbit reaching so far out from the Sun would be inherently unstable. The Sun's gravitational hold on Nemesis would be weak. Thousands of passing stars and clouds of interstellar matter could perturb Nemesis so that each time it returned its orbit would be wider, taking it farther and farther from the Sun. Marc Bailey, an astronomer at the University of Manchester in England, said the Nemesis proposal seemed to be ''quite incapable of producing the strictly periodic sequence of extinction events for which it was originally designed.'' Muller complained that Bailey ''totally mischaracterized'' the report Hut wrote for Nature. Hut presented new calculations supporting the hypothesis, though he recognized that the orbit of Nemesis would vary by about 15 percent over the last 250 million years. Proponents of Nemesis note that such variation is not incompatible with the fossil record for extinctions, which paleontologists believe could be imprecise by a million years or more. Taking into account the criticism, Muller and his associates have revised the hypothesis to postulate that when the companion star was formed 4.6 billion years ago, it must have traveled a tighter, more stable orbit closer to the Sun and only later moved outward to its present orbit. Even so, Roman Smoluchowski, professor of astronomy and physics at the University of Texas at Austin, said the Nemesis hypothesis might apply to only one or two of the mass extinctions. ''I have great difficulty conceiving of how the star could survive long enough to account for the 10 or 12 extinctions over the last 250 million years,'' he said. This is all the more reason for Muller to be stepping up the search for Nemesis. Since last April, astronomers at the University of California's Leuschner Observatory have been focusing a 30-inch telescope in an attempt to detect any stellar object whose motions might betray its proximity and hence its likelihood as a solar companion. In March, telescopes farther south are to begin looking at other parts of the sky. Hut said astronomers probably had a 50 percent chance of finding Nemesis within three years, if it exists. Daniel P. Whitmore, an astronomer at the University of Southwestern Louisiana, at Lafayette, came forward with a similar companion-star hypothesis at about the same time that Muller's group did. Now Whitmore has conceived of an alternative hypothesis that is to be published soon in Nature. He looks to Planet X as the possible heavenly force that perturbs the Oort Cloud every 26 million years. Such a distant planet has been predicted on the basis of the apparent wobbling orbital course of Uranus and Neptune, evidence of possible gravitational tugging from an unseen object. According to the new hypothesis, developed with John Matese at Southwestern Louisiana, the planet would orbit the Sun once every 1,000 years in a region far beyond Pluto and in the inner fringe of the Oort Cloud. Being fairly close to the Sun, the orbit would be stable over the ages. The planet would have long ago cleared out a comet-free gap in the cloud. But Whitmore thought of a way in which the planet could cross the comet disk twice every 52 million years to cause the destructive fall of comets on Earth every 26 million years. The planet's orbit could be tilted with respect to the plane of the other planets and the inner comet disk. And because of perturbations from other planets, Planet X's orbit as a whole could precess, or slowly rotate, so that, even though it makes a close approach to the Sun once every 1,000 years, only twice in a 52-million-year rotation period would it actually cross through the cometary disk. Smoluchowski says the new hypothesis ''is worth exploring.'' Since Planet X, if it exists, must be quite dim, astronomers expect their best chance for proving its existence would come from heat emissions detected by infrared telescopes. The infrared data for that region of the sky are now being processed, while astronomers look also for Nemesis - and perhaps for other possible explanations of the catastrophes that seemingly befall the Earth every 26 million years. nyt-12-18-84 0339est *************** ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 23-Dec-84 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #64 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 64 Today's Topics: Adding to list Baby Galaxy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Dec 1984 1532 PST From: Rick Killion Subject: Adding to list To: SPACE-ENTHUSIASTS@MIT-MC Reply-To: KILLION@JPL-ROBOTICS.ARPA I was apparently dropped from the Space digest list a few weeks ago. Please re-add me to the list. Thank you. Killion@JPL-Robotics ------ ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 22 December 1984 22:08:08 EST From: Hans.Moravec@cmu-ri-rover.arpa To: space@s1-a.arpa Subject: Baby Galaxy Message-ID: <1984.12.23.3.4.58.Hans.Moravec@cmu-ri-rover.arpa> n021 0844 21 Dec 84 BC-GALAXY By WALTER SULLIVAN c. 1984 N.Y. Times News Service NEW YORK - Optical and radio astronomers say tens of thousands of new stars may be bursting into existence in the formation of a new galaxy. Detailed mapping of the part of the sky occupied by a brilliant cloud known as Minkowski's Object is supplying evidence that it is a burst of new stars, according to an announcement by the University of California, Berkeley. The mapping shows the region lies at the end of a jet emanating from a nearby galaxy. It is assumed that impingement of the jet on a dense cloud of gas and dust is triggering the formation of stars. It is, says the university, ''the first strong evidence that such jets can start the formation of an entire galaxy if they hit large clouds of cosmic gas.'' The optical observations were made with telescopes in Arizona, California and Chile. The radio mapping was performed by the Very Large Array, a Y-shaped deployment of 27 radiotelescopes in New Mexico. The radio map shows the jet to be about 60,000 light years in length. That is, it would take light 60,000 years to travel from the jet's origin, in an elliptical galaxy known as NGC 541, to its end. The jet, a column of gas moving at extremely high velocity, generates the radio waves that make it observable because of its interaction with the thin gas adrift between galaxies. Where the jet penetrates a denser cloud of material it is thought to generate enough violent turbulence to initiate gravitational condensation of the material into stars. The stars begin to shine when pressure and temperature in their cores become comparable to that in the core of the Sun, initiating the fusion of hydrogen into helium. NGC 541 is in a cluster of galaxies 240 million light years away. It is suspected that the jet is ejected along the spin axis of a rapidly rotating ''black hole'' or some other superdense, supermassive object in the galaxy's core. If, as widely believed, such a black hole swallows up entire stars, it would not only act as a stellar graveyard but provide the energy for the birth of new stars very far away. The observations were made by a team led by Wil van Breugel, of the Berkeley campus; Alexei V. Filippenko, also at Berkeley; Timothy Heckman, of the University of Maryland and Johns Hopkins University, and George Miley of the Netherlands, who is now at the Space Telescope Science Institute in Baltimore. The research was supported by the National Science Foundation. The Very Large Array is operated by the National Radio Astronomy Observatory. nyt-12-21-84 1144est *************** ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 25-Dec-84 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #65 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 65 Today's Topics: 1985 shuttle missions Adding to list ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Dec 84 1339 PST From: Ron Goldman Subject: 1985 shuttle missions To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA a256 1705 21 Dec 84 AM-Space Manifest,0514 Space Shuttle Missions for 1985 Announced By PAUL RECER AP Aerospace Writer SPACE CENTER, Houston (AP) - The space agency announced Friday it plans six shuttle missions in the first seven months of 1985, starting with the Department of Defense flight next month which will carry a secret cargo. The flight manifest, released at the headquarters of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, calls for a flight a month through May, skipping June, then a Spacelab flight in July. NASA officials said a manifest for the balance of 1985 is incomplete but should be released next month. It may include six more missions, most of which will involve the launch of communications satellites. The flights, lasting a total of 30 days, not counting the military mission, will carry a total of 36 astronauts into orbit with shuttles Discovery and Challenger each making three flights. The schedule includes the launch of six communications satellites, recovery of a scientific satellite and two Spacelab missions. The first mission, aboard Discovery, is the Defense Department flight set for launch Jan. 23. The government has said it will not release any information about the cargo, but sources have described it as an intelligence-gathering satellite to be launched into orbit over the Soviet Union. NASA did not announce how many crewmembers the flight would have, but the Air Force confirmed earlier there would be three NASA astronauts and an Air Force captain on board. Information about the length of the mission was also withheld. But it is expected to be the shortest of next year's shuttle flights. On Feb. 20, Challenger will be launched with a crew of six on a four-day mission that will include the launch of two communications satellites. One of these satellites, the Tracking and Data Relay Satellite-B, will be the second of a communications systems to be used by NASA to relay TV pictures and high data rate signals to Earth, giving virtually 100 percent communications between shuttles and the Earth during subsequent missions. At present, there are brief communications gaps when a shuttle is out of radio contact. Discovery will be launched March 19 for a five-day mission that will include the recovery of a scientific satellite that was left in orbit last April 6. It was deployed to test the long-term effects of space on a variety of coatings, paints and metals. Challenger will be launched April 30 with a crew of seven on a seven-day mission that will concentrate on science. A Spacelab module will be carried in the cargo bay and the crew will include five NASA astronauts and two payload specialists, all of whom are Americans, NASA spokesman Steve Nesbitt said. May 30, Discovery will be launched carrying the most satellites yet sent into space aboard a shuttle. The five-member crew will launch three communications satellites during the seven-day mission and deploy a scientific experiment package. A second Spacelab mision is scheduled for launch July 9. The weeklong flight will have a crew of seven that will include five NASA astronauts and two American payload specialists, Nesbitt said. AP-NY-12-21-84 2001EST *************** ------------------------------ Date: 21 Dec 1984 1532 PST From: Rick Killion Subject: Adding to list To: SPACE-ENTHUSIASTS@MIT-MC Reply-To: KILLION@JPL-ROBOTICS.ARPA I was apparently dropped from the Space digest list a few weeks ago. Please re-add me to the list. Thank you. Killion@JPL-Robotics ------ ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 26-Dec-84 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #66 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 66 Today's Topics: Artificial comet postponed until Thursday ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Dec 84 2311 PST From: Ross Finlayson Subject: Artificial comet postponed until Thursday To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA PM-Comet Watch,0463 German Scientist Makes Decision To Postpone Comet Launch With PM-Christmas Comet By ARTHUR H. ROTSTEIN Associated Press Writer KITT PEAK NATIONAL OBSERVATORY, Ariz. (AP) - For three hours today, West German scientist Gerhard Haerendel was on the hot seat, juggling phones and eventually deciding to postpone the first man-made comet because of cloudy skies. At 5:03 a.m. MST - 15 minutes before a West German satellite was to produce a cloud of barium vapor 70,160 miles above the Pacific Ocean - Haerendel notified the West German satellite operations center near Munich to command the satellite not to eject four barium-filled cannisters. Clouds over ground observatories in Hawaii, Arizona and New Mexico and fog that kept a National Aeronautics and Space Administration observation plane grounded in California forced Haerendel to postpone the comet experiment until 5:32 a.m. MST Thursday. ''So far nothing is lost,'' said Haerendel, director of the Max Planck Institute for Extraterrestrial Physics. ''We did the right thing.'' For three hours before the decision, Haerendel, crowded by camera crews and reporters inside his command trailer at the Kitt Peak National Observatory southwest of Tucson, calmly analyzed the possibilities. He juggled incoming calls from a bank of six telephones, computer data and questions from reporters. He called the planned launch ''the culmination of 20 years of work.'' Haerendel and Tom Krimigis of Johns Hopkins University are the two principal investigators for the comet project, part of a $78 million study of how solar wind - a hot, electrically charged gas speeding from the sun at nearly 1 million mph - interacts with Earth's magnetic field. Knowing that Kitt Peak was covered by clouds, Haerendel hoped for good news from the other observatories at White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico, Mauna Kea on Hawaii, Haleakala on the Hawaiian island of Maui and Fritz Peak near Boulder, Colo. But clouds also covered Hawaii, leaving White Sands and Fritz Peak. White Sands appeared in good condition at first, but about 20 minutes before the scheduled experiment, Haerendel was told visibility was poorer than required there as well. With NASA's Convair 990 airborne observatory jet grounded in Mountain View, Calif., only an Argentine observation plane was in the air over the southern Pacific after taking off from Tahiti. So Haerendel decided weather conditions were too marginal to proceed. Haerendel said a NASA official who has worked at Mountain View more than 20 years told him the fog moved in so quickly ''he has never seen anything like it.'' The postponement was an extra disappointment for Haerendel. His 49th birthday was Christmas Eve and he couldn't be with his family in Germany for Christmas. But before the postponement decision, he told reporters: ''The excitement that goes with the experiment is so strong I don't feel too sorry.'' AP-NY-12-25-84 0903EST ********** ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 27-Dec-84 0404 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #67 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 67 Today's Topics: Xmas Comet? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Dec 1984 1037 PST From: Ron Tencati Subject: Xmas Comet? To: space@mit-mc Reply-To: TENCATI@JPL-VLSI.ARPA Ok, I went out Christmas eve, set up my C-11, went to bed, got up at 4:00am, got out of my warm bed and went outside where it was *COLD*, found Spica, and started looking around... At 4:45 I was still looking around...I never saw even a hint of anything that even remotely resembled a blurry star, let alone a 'comet'...did I miss something? -Ron ------ ------ ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 28-Dec-84 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #68 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 68 Today's Topics: missing "comet" Artificial comet launched Re: SPACE Digest V5 #67 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Dec 1984 10:45:26-EST From: york at scrc-vixen To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC Subject: missing "comet" Cc: tencati@jpl-vlsi@mc As you probably know, you didn't see the artificial comet because they didn't set it off due to bad weather over all the participating ground stations. In fact, I think that the main observation plane was grounded. If my sleep-fogged brain heard the clock-radio correctly this morning, they did release the "comet". I hope you were up to see it! ------------------------------ Date: 27 Dec 84 1745 PST From: Ross Finlayson Subject: Artificial comet launched To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA [RSF - This time skies were clear in the San Francisco Bay Area, but I wasn't able to see the comet for some reason. Did anyone out there see it?] AM-Christmas Comet, Bjt,0672 Artificial Comet 'Exploded Like A Bright Star' By LEE SIEGEL AP Science Writer LOS ANGELES (AP) - The world's first man-made comet ''exploded like a bright star'' over the Pacific Ocean on Thursday in an experiment to study solar winds, but clouds prevented most would-be viewers in the United States from glimpsing the 25,000-mile tail. At 4:22 a.m. PST, a West German satellite about 60,000 miles above the Pacific off South America launched two canisters of barium. Ten minutes later, the canisters ejected the barium vapor to form the artificial comet. ''It was beautiful,'' said Mary Yamamoto, a resident of Honolulu where the vapor cloud was visible. ''It was like a volleyball. It was like a ball, a little ball. It was beautiful. It's color was orange and blue.'' ''I feel calm and happy,'' project coordinator Gerhard Haerendel said after the satellite launched the comet-like barium vapor cloud as part of a $78 million international study of the solar wind. ''I feel glad we did it and the efforts of so many people paid off.'' Clouds prevented sightings of the comet from observatories atop Kitt Peak in Arizona, Mauna Kea on Hawaii - where snow covered telescopes - and Haleakala on Maui, and from most of West and Midwest. Had skies been clear, it could have been seen west of a line running from Hudson Bay through St. Louis to Mexico City. The comet was observed from telescopes at New Mexico's White Sands Missile Range, a mobile observatory near Boulder, Colo., an Argentine airplane flying over southern Pacific from Tahiti and a National Aeronautics and Space Administration jet that flew over the ocean from Mountain View, Calif. ''At the outset, it exploded. It looked like a very bright star - sort of a yellowish-blue flash that quickly went to purple,'' NASA scientist Bob Cameron said in a radiotelephone interview from the Convair 990 flying observatory. ''It held that size and shape for about three to five minutes, then we began to see a pronounced tail, which grew very rapidly'' to almost 25,000 miles in length, he said. The tail was about six times the width of the comet's head, Haerendel, director of the Max Planck Institute for Extraterrestrial Physics, said by phone from Kitt Peak. The comet dissipated after about 15 minutes because ''the solar wind blew this thing away very rapidly,'' Cameron said. U.S. and British satellites, launched with the West German spacecraft aboard a Delta rocket last Aug. 16 from Kennedy Space Center in Florida, also detected the comet and collected information with an array of sensors. Haerendel originally planned to have the West German satellite launch all four barium canisters it carried. But he decided to launch only two, because clouds blocked some of the ground observatories. With two canisters still aboard the spacecraft, ''I anticipate we may make an attempt to repeat the experiment in July,'' when all three satellites, the sun and the moon again will be in ideal positions, Haerendel said. The comet was the third of a series of experiments in a U.S.-British-West German study known as AMPTE, for Active Magnetospheric Particle Tracer Explorers. The study is aimed at greater understanding of how Earth's magnetic field is affected by the solar wind, a hot, electrically charged gas or ''plasma'' speeding away from the sun at nearly 1 million mph. The study has no immediate practical applications, but could help researchers understand how space plasmas collide with dust and gases to help form comets, planets and stars; how solar wind can disrupt satellite and ground communications and power lines; how plasmas might be contained to harness fusion energy; and how solar wind affects Earth's weather. Unlike a real comet - a frozen ball of dust and gas with a long tail of loose atoms and particles - the artificial comet will be a cloud of barium, a metallic element that would be energized by the sun to radiate colored light. Barium is used in another form to make the digestive tract visible under X-rays. AP-NY-12-27-84 1602EST ********** ------------------------------ Date: Thu 27 Dec 84 18:15:48-PST From: MILLMAN@USC-ECLC.ARPA Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #67 To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA I KNOW THE FEELING......I DID THE SAME THING!!!! MICHAEL ------- ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 30-Dec-84 0402 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #69 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 69 Today's Topics: Cosmic Soup? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Saturday, 29 December 1984 08:35:00 EST From: Hans.Moravec@cmu-ri-rover.arpa To: space@s1-a.arpa Subject: Cosmic Soup? Message-ID: <1984.12.29.13.30.40.Hans.Moravec@cmu-ri-rover.arpa> n123 2305 28 Dec 84 BC-PANSPERMIA-(Balt.)2Takes By David Aitken c. 1984 The Baltimore Sun Perhaps the first living organisms to appear on the earth when it was young were not created, as most scientists believe today, by natural processes. Perhaps, instead, they were planted here by intelligent beings from elsewhere in the universe. This seemingly fantastic theory has been advanced lately by two men who are not only legitimate but eminent scientsts. One of them, the astronomer Sir Fred Hoyle, was knighted for his pioneering work on stellar evolution. The other, Francis Crick, shared a Nobel prize with James D. Watson for discovering the molecular structure of DNA, the constituent of genes which encodes heredity, and has been called by colleagues ''the greatest theorist of biology since ...Darwin.'' Has science really crossed the line at last into science fiction's territory? Can we let down the guard of our skepticism and seriously entertain the marvellous idea that we owe our existence to a deliberate creative act by some alien being? Well, no. Sorry. The impression given by the many reviews of Mr. Hoyle's and Mr. Crick's books in the nonscientific press has been that the ''Panspermia'' (''life everywhere'') theory, as it is called, is a little unsteady on its feet but worth a hearing. And this is turn seems to have led to a widespread popular misapprehension that there really may be something in it. But the gentleness of reviewers in dealing with Panspermia has been out of respect for its eminent authors, in most cases - and out of insecurity in the rest. (The New York Times's reviewer of Mr. Hoyle's latest book a few months ago simply threw up his hands, saying, ''Most readers'' - including himself - ''will be ....powerless to evaluate Mr. Hoyle's argument.'') When, tantalized, you read the books themselves you discover that Mr. Crick clearly says he is just dreaming aloud and doesn't want his theory to be taken seriously. And that Mr. Hoyle, his earned scientific reputation notwithstanding, is on this subject merely a crank. There are in short, no solid grounds for believing in Panspermia. The assumption of most modern biologists about how life began on earth is that the molecules of amino acid naturally present on the primitive planet probably combined, by natural processes that are not yet understood, into ''self-replicating'' molecular structures. (Part of what defines life is that it ''replicates'' - duplicates - itself.). Francis Crick doubts this, in part because he says he can't imagine how it could have happened. (To which, however, Carl Sagan responds, ''It seems premature, in the face of so much heroic progress'' up to now in science's understanding of the primitive earth's chesmitry, ''to despair.'') In addition, Mr. Crick goes on, cetain strange features of life on earth suggest that if self-replicating organisms did appear here spontaneously, they did so only once, which means that the event must have been an exceedingly unlikely one. One of these features is that out of all the amino acids available and suitable for life, only twenty are incorporated in organisms on earth. There is no imaginable reason for this, Mr. Crick says, unless one postulates that a single ancient organism which just happened to be made of those twenty is ancestral to everything alive today. What other theory might fit the facts? Well, Mr. Crick says startlingly, letting his imagination fly, the facts are also consistent with the idea that life was seeded on earth by intelligent beings who shipped the ancient organism with its twenty amino acids here by rocket. MORE nyt-12-29-84 0204est *************** n124 2317 28 Dec 84 BC-PANSPERMIA1stadd-(Balt.) pickup xxx by rocket. That idea, he argues on a number of grounds, is not absolutely implausible. Indeed, firing the seeds of life into space is the sort of thing we ourselves might well do one day, when you remember that we have already sent a message about ourselves out of the solar system on a spacecraft. (Mr. Crick could also have added, though he doesn't, that scientists talk seriously of seeding Venus and Mars with life when it becomes technically feasible to do so.) But his speculations about the ancient aliens and their rocket are just ''an exercise,'' Mr. Crick told an interviewer from Omni magazine, and he hopes that no one will take them as more than that. ''The extreme paucity of ...''relevant evidence'' makes confirmation of any theory about life's origins impossible at present, he emphasizes in ''Life Itself.'' And he cautions against uncritical enthusiasm not just for his own but for any theory that is unsupported by evidence: ''Plausibility alone will not do, quite apart from the fact that it is usually contaminated with our unstated prejudices.'' Sir Fred Hoyle's version of the Panspermia theory is that the universe is full of drifting clouds of bacteria and genetic material which, raining down on the earth, give us flu today, which gave life its start billions of years ago, and which direct the course of evolution. Darwinian theory is thus invalidated, he maintains: It is not random mutations which account for the origin of species, but genetic material from space grafting itself onto the genes of earthly organisms. And how might that extraterrestrial life itself have originated? Mr. Hoyle thinks it was seeded backwards in time by beings residing in the future in order to give birth to their own ancestors. It is only by some such cosmic tautology that life could have arisen at all, he argues, for it is a statistical impossibility that living organisms could have sprung into being by mere accident from non-living material. The first part of this theory is at least plausible on the face of it, particularly in view of science's discovery in meteorites of simple organic chemicals - none of which, however, has been demonstrated so far to have had a biological origin. What is wrong with Mr. Hoyle's presentation of the theory, however, as one discovers with dismay on reading him, is that he consciencelessly uses tricks borrowed from pseudosciences such as creationism and UFOology to dress plausibility up as the hard evidence he simply doesn't have. For example, of photographs he claims show fossils of extraterrestrial organisms - they are the only photographic evidence he has ever even claimed to have - Mr. Hoyle says in ''The Intelligent Universe'' that microbiologist Hans Pflug ''identified similarities'' between the pictured objects and ''a terrestrial bacterium, Pedomicrobium nm,'' though Mr. Pflug ''hesitated to make a positive assertion.'' Mr. Hoyle thereupon makes a positive assertion himself, without saying a word about what justifies him in doing so, accompanying it with the innuendo that anyone who would disagree with him must be desperately on the defensive. Suggestions by earlier scientists that microfossils in meteorites might be of biological origin were ''shouted down,'' he says, but ''here surely is clear evidence of extraterrestrial life.'' (Two can play that game. I say the blurry photos look like bread mold and that this proves there are sandwiches in space.) Innuendo and invective substitute everywhere for argument in Hoyle books. There are hints of conspiracy: When ''living bacteria were found'' by high-altitude balloons at the edge of space, ''Mysteriously, the flights suddenly stopped.'' (Not a syllable of amplification on this follows, but for afficionados of pseudo-science the hint will enough.) Darwinians who persist in their error (which is to say, the entire community of the world's biologists, for there are literally millions of pices of concrete evidence supportung Mr. Darwin's theory, while no evidence resistant to critical scrutiny has so far been found against it) ''have convinced themselves'' by intellectually dishonest means. And why? Because, Mr. Hoyle says, radical new scientific ideas are always ''bomb blasts among pigeons'' for ''orthodox scientists.'' (No they're not. No reading of the history of science supports this disingenuous flippancy.) So Mr. Hoyle goes, on page after page in book after book, until one begins to be sickened. Our society is all too ready to be doped by unreason as it is, and the last thing we need is yet another dealer on yet another corner. And so Panspermia, as a theory to be taken seriously on the basis of present knowledge, goes a-glimmering. Perhaps an idea as radical will eventually be needed to explain life's origins. Mr. Crick's intuition that life may not be so easily explicable as his colleagues currently think is anyway worth pondering. But for now, as the philosopher of science Ludwig Wittgenstein puts it, ''about that on which we have no information we cannot speak.'' Mr. Aitken writes frequently on scientific matters End Panspermia nyt-12-29-84 0215est *************** ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 02-Jan-85 0404 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #70 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 70 Today's Topics: Music with space themes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Jan 85 00:00:19 EST From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Music with space themes To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A The president of the Niagara Frontier L5 chapter is interested in putting together a list of popular songs that use a space or technology theme in lyrics, title or possibly intent (some instrumental pieces are written with such intent) We are not looking for filk song titles, but for rock, country, classical, avant garde, jazz, punk, or whatever. Some starter examples would be: The Planets by Gustav Holst Rocket Man by Elton John Other performers I can think of who have done this type of music are Emerson, Lake and Palmer; Jefferson Starship; possibly Led Zeppelin; Yes... You should have the idea by now. I'd appreciate it if y'all would send me your suggestions in the following format. If you don't have all the info, just send what you have. Song Title: (of individual song) Collection: (album or songbook containing song, sometimes an entire album or collection may be relevant so that individual song titles are redundant) Credits: (person or persons on credits (lyrics, score, music by, etc) Performer: (name of band or performer who did the record or whose score was used for sheet music, if applicable) Publisher: (either sheet music publisher or record company. Records sometimes have both a label and a major record company, like 'FOOBAZ RECORDS, RCA) Notes: (why is this piece of music to considered to have a 'space theme'. It may be from a science fiction movie, it may be a rock song with an SF theme such as some of the Jefferson Starship, it may be about real space events like shuttle launches, moon landings, etc; or more philosophical/poetical peices. Send your suggestions to: amon@cmu-ri-fas.arpa Many thanks and Ad Astra, Dale Amon ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 03-Jan-85 0404 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #71 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 71 Today's Topics: Date and time needed ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Jan 85 15:54:16 EST From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Date and time needed To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A Could anyone tell me the exact time and date of Al Shepard's historic tee off on moon? ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 07-Jan-85 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #72 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 72 Today's Topics: History ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sunday, 6 January 1985 12:30:10 EST From: Hans.Moravec@cmu-ri-rover.arpa To: space@s1-a.arpa Subject: History Message-ID: <1985.1.6.17.28.29.Hans.Moravec@cmu-ri-rover.arpa> a278 2027 05 Jan 85 BC-APN--Rocket Team, adv20-3 Takes,0775 $adv 20 AGENCIES AND RADIO OUT For release Sun., Jan. 20 >From AP Newsfeatures APN PRINT SUBSCRIBERS HAVE BEEN MAILED FOUR ILLUSTRATIONS EDITOR'S NOTE - Now that we're shuttling back and forth in space with huge payloads, the pioneering age of rocketry seems ancient history. Not so to the group of German experts that was instrumental in getting all that hardware up there. Most are retired now, but their memories are still green. A reporter who covered their exploits over the years revisits the little band in Huntsville, Ala. By HOWARD BENEDICT AP Aerospace Writer HUNTSVILLE, Ala. (AP) - Forty years ago they were launching V-2 rockets at London for Adolf Hitler. But they knew the war was already lost for Nazi Germany and they sought to secure their futures. The answer, they decided, was America, a country Hitler had been warring against for more than three years. In America, they might be able to continue building rockets and perhaps use them to fulfill their dream of exploring space. These were the rocketeers of Peenemunde, on the Baltic coast, and the most starry-eyed of all was their young technical director, 32-year-old Wernher von Braun. He spoke eloquently of rockets that would one day carry men to the moon and Mars. To von Braun, chances of surrendering to the American army seemed slim. The Soviet army was closing in on Peenemunde, and the German general commanding the area felt the rocket workers should fight there to the end, in hand-to-hand combat, if necessary. But the Armament Ministry in Berlin directed von Braun in February 1945, to move his team of 5,000 and his most important research equipment south to the town of Bleicherode near the Harz Mountains. There now was hope, von Braun said, because the move might put them in the path of the American army. ''We didn't want to fall into the hands of the Russians,'' one of the team members, Konrad K. Dannenberg, recalled recently. ''We had had enough of a totalitarian society. We generally felt better about America. Several of us were space enthusiasts, and we didn't think Russia could do much in that field for technical reasons.'' After a month at Bleicherode, the rocket team was ordered to destroy all classified records to prevent their capture, but instead they were hidden in an abandoned salt mine, to be retrieved later. Von Braun and several of his top scientists and technicians were moved against their will to an area south of Munich and they feared they might be eliminated by their own country to prevent the Allies from obtaining their missile secrets. But as Germany collapsed, the rocketmen were able in the confusion to approach the U.S. Army near the Bavarian ski resort of Oberjoch in May. The messenger was von Braun's younger brother, Magnus, who could speak a little English. The Americans were delighted to accept the invitation to capture Germany's top rocketmen, and in a project known as Operation Paperclip, they selected von Braun and 117 of his key team members to go to the United States under contract with the Army to build rockets. For a generation, these men were the heart and soul of the U.S. missile and space programs. Without them, Americans would not have gone to the moon when they did. The Germans went first to Fort Bliss, Texas, and transferred in 1950 to the north Alabama cotton town of Huntsville, which quickly came alive as the newcomers pursued their dreams into space. Most of the survivors from the original group of 118 - about 70 - still live in Huntsville. The majority are in their 70s and have retired. Some still do consulting work with aerospace firms or the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. Their leader, von Braun, died in 1977. The group was shaken last October by the announcement that one of their group, Arthur Rudolph, had returned to Germany and renounced his American citizenshup after the Justice Department alleged he ''literally worked thousands of slave laborers to death'' while building V-2 rockets for the Nazis at an underground factory in central Germany. Rudolph, who coordinated development of the Saturn 5 rocket that carried U.S. astronauts to the moon, has denied the charges. His colleagues here back him. ''It's just not true,'' says Eberhard Rees, former director of NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center here. He called Rudolph a ''victim of circumstances to have been put in the underground manufacture of the V-2.'' Rees says that poor health and the urgings of his wife and daughter prompted Rudolph, 77, to leave the country rather than fight the allegations. MORE AP-NY-01-05-85 2320EST *************** a279 2039 05 Jan 85 BC-APN--Rocket Team, adv20-1st Add,0735 $adv 20 AGENCIES AND RADIO OUT For release Sun., Jan. 20 HUNTSVILLE, Ala.: the allegations. ''He didn't have the funds or the energy to fight,'' says Dannenberg. He doesn't believe the allegations, adding there probably was little Rudolph could have done to improve conditions for the inmates. ''All of these forced-labor workers were really under the custody of the SS,'' he says. ''Rudolph had no influence with the SS to do better.'' Rees, Dannenberg and the other Germans would rather talk about their rocket accomplishments in America. It was a long, hard road. ''It was difficult to leave our families and our homeland, and we didn't know if the Americans would milk us dry of our knowledge and send us back, as the Soviets did later with the German rocket people they got,'' Dannenberg says. Walter Wiesman's wife Erica tells of the difficulties of families left behind in Germany: ''We were quartered in Army barracks in Landsut, north of Munich. There were about 50 real young people there between 1 and 3 years of age. My daughter Monica had no shoes, so she had to be carried everywhere. But there was food, and we were not hungry.'' The salaries of the rocket team members were paid directly to their families in Germany. ''In Fort Bliss we each received $6 per day,'' recalls Wiesman. ''From this we deducted mess hall charges and $1.20 day for officers' quarters accommodations. That left us about $3.25 a day to spend.'' A year and a half later, after the rocketeers had signed long-term contracts with the Army, the families began arriving in Texas. A large military hospital annex was converted into apartments and into lab and office space for the team. At Fort Bliss, the von Braun group tested and improved several V-2s shipped from Germany and instructed the Army on rocketry. In the early years, funds were meager. The world was at peace, and Congress was not of a mind to appropriate much money for missilery or for von Braun's dream of space exploration. The Korean War changed that. In 1950, the Germans were rushed to Huntsville with orders to build the Army a long-range missile able to carry a nuclear warhead. They set up shop at Redstone Arsenal, an abandoned, rundown World War II shell-loading facility. The finished product was the Redstone missile, successfully launched for the first time in 1953 from Cape Canaveral, Fla. The following year, von Braun and other space enthusiasts from industry and the services met in Washington to discuss launching a satellite as a U.S. contribution to International Geophysical Year, to be observed from July 1957 to December 1958. Von Braun said he could orbit a 5-pound satellite with a souped-up Redstone. The Office of Naval Research put up $88,000, and Project Orbiter was born. It had a short life. A panel of scientists decided that the satellite project should be launched with a non-military rocket and recommended development of the Vanguard, saying a rocket with a peaceful background would have ''more dignity'' for a scientific project like IGY. President Dwight Eisenhower agreed. Snorted von Braun: ''I'm all for dignity, but this is a cold war tool. How dignified would our position really be if a man-made star of unknown origin suddenly appeared in our skies?'' Such a star appeared on Oct. 4, 1957. It was called Sputnik, it was made in the Soviet Union and it shocked the West. ''We were very disappointed and frustrated over Sputnik,'' says Karl Heimburg, once in charge of field testing for von Braun. ''Because we knew we had the capability of launching a satellite at least six months earlier than that.'' There was near-panic in official Washington. Von Braun was directed to prepare for launching a satellite with his jazzed-up Redstone in case the Vanguard should fail on a December launch attempt. ''We didn't like the way the order was written,'' recalls Ernst Stuhlinger, research chief for the German team. ''If Vanguard worked, we would have to halt our effort. Medaris asked for an order to launch a satellite, not just prepare it. Otherwise, Medaris, von Braun and Pickering all said they would resign. He got the order.'' Gen. John Medaris was commander of the Army Ballistic Missile Agency at Redstone. William Pickering headed the California Institute of Technology's Jet Propulsion Laboratory which was developing the Explorer 1 satellite for the rocket. MORE AP-NY-01-05-85 2333EST *************** a279 2039 05 Jan 85 BC-APN--Rocket Team, adv20-1st Add,0735 $adv 20 AGENCIES AND RADIO OUT For release Sun., Jan. 20 HUNTSVILLE, Ala.: the allegations. ''He didn't have the funds or the energy to fight,'' says Dannenberg. He doesn't believe the allegations, adding there probably was little Rudolph could have done to improve conditions for the inmates. ''All of these forced-labor workers were really under the custody of the SS,'' he says. ''Rudolph had no influence with the SS to do better.'' Rees, Dannenberg and the other Germans would rather talk about their rocket accomplishments in America. It was a long, hard road. ''It was difficult to leave our families and our homeland, and we didn't know if the Americans would milk us dry of our knowledge and send us back, as the Soviets did later with the German rocket people they got,'' Dannenberg says. Walter Wiesman's wife Erica tells of the difficulties of families left behind in Germany: ''We were quartered in Army barracks in Landsut, north of Munich. There were about 50 real young people there between 1 and 3 years of age. My daughter Monica had no shoes, so she had to be carried everywhere. But there was food, and we were not hungry.'' The salaries of the rocket team members were paid directly to their families in Germany. ''In Fort Bliss we each received $6 per day,'' recalls Wiesman. ''From this we deducted mess hall charges and $1.20 day for officers' quarters accommodations. That left us about $3.25 a day to spend.'' A year and a half later, after the rocketeers had signed long-term contracts with the Army, the families began arriving in Texas. A large military hospital annex was converted into apartments and into lab and office space for the team. At Fort Bliss, the von Braun group tested and improved several V-2s shipped from Germany and instructed the Army on rocketry. In the early years, funds were meager. The world was at peace, and Congress was not of a mind to appropriate much money for missilery or for von Braun's dream of space exploration. The Korean War changed that. In 1950, the Germans were rushed to Huntsville with orders to build the Army a long-range missile able to carry a nuclear warhead. They set up shop at Redstone Arsenal, an abandoned, rundown World War II shell-loading facility. The finished product was the Redstone missile, successfully launched for the first time in 1953 from Cape Canaveral, Fla. The following year, von Braun and other space enthusiasts from industry and the services met in Washington to discuss launching a satellite as a U.S. contribution to International Geophysical Year, to be observed from July 1957 to December 1958. Von Braun said he could orbit a 5-pound satellite with a souped-up Redstone. The Office of Naval Research put up $88,000, and Project Orbiter was born. It had a short life. A panel of scientists decided that the satellite project should be launched with a non-military rocket and recommended development of the Vanguard, saying a rocket with a peaceful background would have ''more dignity'' for a scientific project like IGY. President Dwight Eisenhower agreed. Snorted von Braun: ''I'm all for dignity, but this is a cold war tool. How dignified would our position really be if a man-made star of unknown origin suddenly appeared in our skies?'' Such a star appeared on Oct. 4, 1957. It was called Sputnik, it was made in the Soviet Union and it shocked the West. ''We were very disappointed and frustrated over Sputnik,'' says Karl Heimburg, once in charge of field testing for von Braun. ''Because we knew we had the capability of launching a satellite at least six months earlier than that.'' There was near-panic in official Washington. Von Braun was directed to prepare for launching a satellite with his jazzed-up Redstone in case the Vanguard should fail on a December launch attempt. ''We didn't like the way the order was written,'' recalls Ernst Stuhlinger, research chief for the German team. ''If Vanguard worked, we would have to halt our effort. Medaris asked for an order to launch a satellite, not just prepare it. Otherwise, Medaris, von Braun and Pickering all said they would resign. He got the order.'' Gen. John Medaris was commander of the Army Ballistic Missile Agency at Redstone. William Pickering headed the California Institute of Technology's Jet Propulsion Laboratory which was developing the Explorer 1 satellite for the rocket. MORE AP-NY-01-05-85 2333EST *************** a280 2053 05 Jan 85 BC-APN--Rocket Team, adv20-2nd Add,0751 $adv 20 AGENCIES AND RADIO OUT For release Sun., Jan. 20 HUNTSVILLE, Ala.: the rocket. The Army effort became urgent on Dec. 6 when Vanguard rose 2 feet off its Cape Canaveral launch pad and fell back, exploding into a giant fireball. Its 3-pound satellite broke free and beeped forlornly on the ground. It was one of America's most embarrassing moments. Von Braun reserved range time at Cape Canaveral for Jan. 29, 1958. Delayed two days by weather, his modified Redstone with three small upper stages blasted off on the 31st and hurled the 31-pound Explorer 1 satellite into orbit. America was in a space race with the Soviets. To manage this effort, Eisenhower and the Congress created the National Aeronautics and Space Adminstration. ''When NASA was formed, it needed a rocket-building capability and it wanted the von Braun team,'' says Stuhlinger. ''But Medaris and the Army didn't want to lose the team because it would see its rocket program slip away.'' The team was developing the Pershing 1 missile at the time, and NASA and the Army worked out an agreement in which a group headed by Rudolph stayed with the Army until the Pershing flew successfully. The rocketeers, which now included several hundred Americans, didn't have to leave Huntsville. NASA established the Marshall Space Flight Center here, appointed von Braun its first director and named Germans - most of them now American citizens - to all key positions. Their major task was to develop the Saturn rockets that would transport men into space. ''The establishment of NASA was a great relief,'' says Dannenberg. ''We wouldn't be involved anymore in producing rockets that could kill people. We could aim at the peaceful exploration of space.'' In the early days of the space effort, the German-developed Redstone and Jupiter rockets boosted many of America's first satellites into space. And a Redstone carried the nation's first astronaut, Alan Shepard, into space in 1961. Shortly after Shepard's brief suborbital flight, President John F. Kennedy committed the nation to landing a man on the moon before the end of the decade. ''That decision recognized the capability and work of the team,'' says Dannenberg. ''Space exploration was on its way.'' The Marshall team, expanded to more than 3,000 people, enjoyed an unprecedented series of successes in developing first the Saturn 1 and then the mammoth Saturn 5 moon rocket. The years of work culminated July 20, 1969, when Americans Neil Armstrong and Edwin Aldrin walked on the moon. ''The first feeling was relaxation because it worked, then exhilaration,'' says Heimburg. ''Our dream was fulfilled,'' says Dannenberg. In the early 1970s, with the Apollo moon program winding down, NASA began easing the former Germans out of their jobs. There was talk at the time of ''Americanizing'' the space program. ''Some of us were angry about that, and several retired at that time,'' says Dannenberg. ''The Americans were saying, in effect, we know enough now, so you can leave. There was also a tendency to get the Germans out of high positions. Some key lab directors were eased out. I felt a little arm-twisting myself.'' ''I think it was a combination of getting rid of the older people and the Germans,'' adds Heimburg. Many went to work in Huntsville's burgeoning technical community, which they helped create. Von Braun was transferred to NASA headquarters in Washington, and quit after two years there to join private industry. When the Army brought the Germans to Huntsville in 1950, ''it had a population of 16,000, and we were a pot-belly stove, wood products and cotton town,'' says Guy B. Nerren, president and general manager of the Huntsville-Madison County Chamber of Commerce. ''The space program came and we went on a roll,'' he says. The current population is more than 150,000. For a time, he says, 75 percent of the work here was aerospace-oriented. Today it is only 25 percent as other diversified industries have moved in. Edward O. Buckbee, director of the Alabama Space & Rocket Center, a tourist attraction promoted by von Braun as a showcase for the missile and space programs, says: ''Von Braun and his people introduced technology to Huntsville. He became a leader. The community realized it had a significant and unusual person and it let him lead the way. As a result, there are better schools, libraries, a university, a research center - a whole new beginning to Huntsville. He turned it in a whole new direction, and the people followed.'' END ADV AP-NY-01-05-85 2347EST *************** ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 09-Jan-85 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #73 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 73 Today's Topics: Germans Re: SPACE Digest V5 #71 Brazil on the Doorstep of Space Hal/s to Ada Translator ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Jan 85 20:29:11 EST From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Germans To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A I hadn't known that NASA had actually attempted phasing the German rocket scientists out at the end of the moon program. But I suppose I understand why. The last thing a bunch of beauracrats need is having managers who actually have REAL dreams, REAL creativity, work HARD, and ignore you when you tell them not to push things so fast!!! By the way, I've heard the rumour (maybe not so much a rumor) that some of the NASA beauracrats are qilling to go along with budget cuts so they can take the space station program and spread it out longer, thus making their sad little jobs more secure (tsk, tsk). I guess they'd be in real trouble if anyone in congress ever figures out that we should have a lunar base in less time than NASA is claiming for a mere space station... Maybe they should fire everyone at NASA over 30 who isn't from Penemunde. ------------------------------ id AA03890; Tue, 8 Jan 85 18:46:19 mst id AA26414; Tue, 8 Jan 85 18:47:51 mst Date: Tue, 8 Jan 85 18:47:51 mst From: jlg@LANL (Jim Giles) Message-Id: <8501090147.AA26414@b.ARPA> Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #71 Newsgroups: ar.space To: SPACE@MIT-MC References: <18871@lanl.ARPA> > Could anyone tell me the exact time and date of Al Shepard's historic > tee off on moon? > Someone's working on a high tech version of 'Trivial Persuits'. ------------------------------ Date: 08 Jan 85 1933 PST From: Ron Goldman Subject: Brazil on the Doorstep of Space To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA a064 0627 05 Jan 85 PM-Brazil-Space, Adv 15,0669 For Release PMs Tues Jan 15 or Thereafter Brazil on the Doorstep of Space By STAN LEHMAN Associated Press Writer SAO JOSE DOS CAMPOS, Brazil (AP) - It was a brief 15-minute, 380-mile suborbital flight, but for Brazilian scientists the successful launch of a two-stage, homemade Sonda IV rocket was a turning point in the country's 19-year-old space program. In theory, it also meant that Brazil might be on the road toward a nuclear-missile capability, although officials maintain this is not their intent. Their aim, they say, is to produce an orbital vehicle for technological satellites. The 36-foot, seven-ton, solid-fuel Sonda IV went up Nov. 21 from the Barreira do Inferno (Hell's Gate) space center in the northeastern state of Rio Grande do Norte, near the equator, where gravitational pull is at a minimum. ''The Sonda IV proved we are going in the right direction toward developing our own satellite launching vehicle,'' Jayme Boscov, project manager of the government's space activities institute, said in an interview at his office in this southeastern city. The institute, one of several research and development centers of the Brazilian air force's Aerospace Technical Center, coordinates this country's space program. Boscov, 52, said the $1.3 million Sonda IV, which took 10 years to develop, ''allowed us to test the systems, components and the technology needed to build a satellite launcher.'' He said the most important items tested during the Sonda IV flight were the telecommunications systems, electronic components, flight control mechanisms, propellants and high resistance steel. Boscov said Brazil's first satellite launcher is expected to be ready by 1990, ''the same year in which we hope to launch our own meteorological and earth observation satellites.'' ''The earth observation satellite will be useful to detect mineral deposits and predict agricultural harvests,'' he added. Brazil currently purchases these services supplied by the American Landsat satellite. Asked if a country with the capacity to build a satellite launcher would be able to build a rocket capable of carrying a nuclear warhead, Boscov said, ''I cannot deny that the basic technology we have dominated can eventually be applied to a variety of other purposes, but the objective of our work is strictly civilian.'' ''New and totally different techniques would have to be developed to adapt the rockets we have produced to carry nuclear weapons and these techniques are not being developed at the institute,'' he added. The Aerospace Technical Center, also one of the country's most important nuclear research sites, is working on ways to enrich uranium which would give Brazil the capacity to build an atomic bomb. Gen. Hugo de Oliveira Piva of the air force, director of the center, has sai And Brazil hopes to master uranium enrichment technology by 1990, when the satellite launcher is expected to be ready, but has denied any plans of building a bomb. For Boscov, who heads a team of 1,000 at the Space Activities Institute, Brazil is justified in having what he described as a modest space program. ''It is the only way we can create our own technology and reduce our dependence on the developed countries,'' he said. ''I see no reason why Brazil should not be involved in this kind of activity which constantly generates new technologies, new jobs and new products. It is a field in which any country that wants to develop has to get involved,'' Boscov added. ''And since space technology is not something which is transferred from one country to another very easily, we have to create our own.'' Boscov said Brazil plans to build a communications satellite, ''but that is a much more complex project which won't be ready before 1999.'' Brazil, however, will have a communications satellite before then - the Brasilsat being built in Canada. It is scheduled to go into orbit in February, launched by a French Ariane-3 rocket from the Kourou Space Center in French Guiana, on the northern shoulder of South America. End Adv PMs Tues Jan. 15 or Thereafter AP-NY-01-05-85 0922EST *************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 85 13:06 CDT From: Mike_Linnig To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: larry@JPL-VLSI.ARPA Subject: Hal/s to Ada Translator I recieved the following message from the INFO-Ada mailing list. Does anyone have any Ideas? -- Mike > > Subj: HAL/S to Ada translator > > Date: 6 Jan 1985 1943 PST > From: Larry Carroll > Subject: HAL/S to Ada translator > To: info-ada@USC-ECLB > Reply-To: LARRY@JPL-VLSI > > Most of the Space Shuttle software was written in HAL/S. Seems to me > much of that could be useful for other space projects, if it could be > translated into Ada. (I suspect NASA, reluctantly or otherwise, is > going to go to Ada for most future software development.) > > Does anyone know of an automated or semi-automated tool for translating > HAL/S to Ada? Or of PL/I to Ada? (To my untutored sensibilities HAL/S > looks a lot like a slimmed-down PL/I with some real-time facilities > thrown in.) > Larry @ jpl-vlsi > ------ ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 11-Jan-85 0404 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #74 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 74 Today's Topics: SECNAV comments re SBR/IR New shuttles by 2010 AD, USA; no go, France and Japan; yes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thursday, 10 Jan 1985 08:45-EST From: nsc@Mitre-Bedford To: SPACE@MIT-MC Cc: nsc@Mitre-Bedford Subject: SECNAV comments re SBR/IR I'm told that SECNAV, at a luncheon address for a *Defense Week* marketing conference last month, had some interesting comments in reply to a question about Space Based Radar/IR. The upshot (I was told) was that he viewed the establishment of the Unified Space Command as detrimental to the possibility of funding for SBR/IR. If anybody has more details on the actual comments Lehman made in response to the question, I'd appreciate hearing them. Navy Space Planner ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jan 1985 19:56:22-EST From: glenn at ll-vlsi To: SPACE@MIT-MC Subject: New shuttles by 2010 AD, USA; no go, France and Japan; yes In a rather depressings article Aerospace Daily recently quoted a congressional committee as recommending that a fifth space shuttle be considered because no additional shuttles would built for the next twenty five years. Also no program for shuttle successors would be started before early in 2000 AD decade. By comparison to this the French have decided to start their "Hermes" small shuttle, and funded the project with 1.4 Billion dollars over the next decade. Typical descriptions call for a 4 man ship with about 4000 kilo cargo capacity. This ship would be launched on the Ariane 4 type vehicle about 1996. They have invited the other members of the European Space Agency to joint them in this, but will go ahead even if they do not. Also in Jane's Spaceflight directory they recently described a Japanese small shuttle. It is similar to they French craft and slated for launch in the early 1990's via a Japanese H type launcher. Yes I know none of these are as good as this country's shuttle. On the other hand at least they are moving forward in this area. Is the USA? Not by the sound of that first article. Glenn Chapman ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 13-Jan-85 0404 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #75 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 75 Today's Topics: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Jan 85 10:39:07 cst From: "Duncan A. Buell" To: space@mit-mc.csnet On January 10, 1985, U. S. District Judge Adrian Duplantier in New Orleans granted a motion for summary judgement, rul- ing that the "balanced-treatment" statute of the state of Louisiana, which required the teaching of "creationism" if evolution were taught in the public schools, was unconstitu- tional, violating the separation of church and state. The law, passed in 1981 and never implemented, had been challenged immediately after passage by the state legisla- ture by a lawsuit filed by the ACLU on behalf of 27 plain- tiffs, including representatives of Roman Catholic, United Methodist, Presbyterian, and Baptist churches, Jewish organ- izations, parents, and teachers. By granting summary judgement to the plaintiffs, Judge Duplantier ruled (in essence) that a trial was unnecessary, as he had sufficient facts from the plaintiffs' suit and the 1981 decision of Judge Overton in Arkansas to make a deci- sion in the case. Some excerpts from Judge Duplantier's decision follow. "Because it [the state's balanced-treatment statute] pro- motes the beliefs of some theistic sects to the detriment of others, the statute violates the fundamental First Amendment principle . . . that a state must be neutral in its treat- ment of religions." "Whatever 'science' may be, 'creation' as the term is used in the statute involves religion, and the teaching of 'creation-science' and 'creationism' as contemplated by the statute involves teaching 'tailored to the principles' of a particular religious sect or group of sects." "As it is ordinarily understood, the term 'creation' means the beginning into existence of mankind and of the universe and implies a divine creator. While all religions may not teach the existence of a supreme being, a belief in a supreme being (a creator) is generally considered to be a religious tenet." (End of excerpts.) Some of you may question why I put this on the space list. If so, then you should become better informed on what "creationism" holds as its beliefs. You should also check up on the positions of the National Academy of Sciences and of the American Association for the Advancement of Science on this issue. Even President Reagan has himself come out and made a statement on this issue. I have been involved with the ACLU on this matter for some time. I lobbied in the Louisiana legislature in the spring when an attempt was made to repeal the law (repeal passed 21-19 in the state Senate and failed 61-26 in the House). I have read the creationist books and I have talked with some of their lobbyists and supporters, including Wendell Bird, their best-known legal counsel. Although it is from a prac- tical point of view probably true that the creationists will stop once Genesis replaces biology in the science classes, some of the areas of interest to this list which could be affected in the long term include: the age of the universe, the formation of stars, the speed of light, the constancy of the rate of decay of radioactive substances, the existence of life somewhere else than the earth, the appropriateness of planning a solution to dwindling resources on earth, biology, geology, astronomy, and physics. This is no joke! Louisiana Attorney General Guste has said that the state will appeal Judge Duplantier's ruling, for the following reason: "We feel that we have an obligation to support the laws written by the Legislature unless they're patently unconsti- tutional. . . . And we don't feel that this law is patently unconstitutional. Nowhere does it involve itself with reli- gion. It has to do with science just like Darwinism is, at best, a scientific theory." ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 17-Jan-85 0404 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #76 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 76 Today's Topics: dining in space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Jan 85 2252 PST From: Ron Goldman Subject: dining in space To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA n046 1150 15 Jan 85 BC-ASTROFOOD By ROBERT REINHOLD c. 1985 N.Y. Times News Service HOUSTON - Remember the bad old days of space travel, when astronauts had to subsist on pastelike food sucked from toothpaste tubes, graham crackers squashed into cubes and insipid little dried-beef sandwiches they had to rehydrate with their saliva? Well, all that has changed. During the next mission, tentatively scheduled for Jan. 23, the crew of the space shuttle Discovery will be consuming comparatively normal dishes such as green beans with mushrooms and meatballs with barbecue sauce. Since the mission is primarily a military one, its duration is a secret. Much of the food is bought right off the shelf in groceries in the Houston area and freeze-dried or repackaged. All the space traveler has to do now is float over to the galley, squirt six ounces of water into a food pack, heat and serve. What has made this possible is the realization that scientists' initial apprehensions - particularly the belief that weightlessness would make it difficult to chew and swallow food - were groundless and that space travel requires no special diet. Astronauts require only safe, nutritious fare that is easy to prepare. Indeed, 12 hours before each flight the shuttle is loaded with fresh bananas, oranges, peaches, carrots, celery, bread and the like for the first few days. Since the orbiter has no refrigerator, the astronauts rely on packaged foods later in the flight. ''We try to use as much commercially available food as we can,'' said Rita Rapp, manager of the shuttle's food system, who has been with the National Aeronautics and Space Administration since 1961 and who worked on meals for the Apollo program in 1966. ''For years the crew have been saying they want to eat everyday things from the grocery store.'' ''It just shows that people like what they are familiar with,'' added Connie Stadler, a dietician for Technology Inc., the contractor that prepares and tests the food at the NASA kitchen here. The current crew might be eating breakfast rolls from Sara Lee, diced pineapple from Del Monte, chocolate instant breakfast from Carnation or M&M peanuts from Mars Inc. They can also spice things up with taco sauce, ketchup, barbecue sauce and other condiments, which come in the familiar cellophane packets offered by fast-food outlets. One of the main lessons learned in more than two decades of space flight is that the body requires much the same nutrition intake 195 nautical miles above the earth as on its surface. The menu provides normal recommended daily allowances of protein, vitamins, calcium, phosphorous and other essentials. Because of the energy astronauts expend, even in a weightless environment, they must also maintain their normal caloric intake to preserve body weight. At the same time improvements in toilet facilities have ended the need for the low-residue diet imposed on early space travelers; the shuttle crew can eat fibrous items such as bran flakes and granola for breakfast. The menus consists of five basic food types: -Thermostabilized - A fancy term for canned. Many off-the-shelf canned goods such as tuna and chocolate pudding are used. They may be in hard aluminum tins or in flexible metal envelopes called retort pouches. -Intermediate moisture - Low-moisture foods such as dried peaches or apricots, packed in plastic. -Rehydratable - Prepared foods from which water has been removed by freeze-drying or sublimation, or dried foods such as cereals. They are rehydrated before eating. -Natural form - Fresh foods, eggs, cookies, bread and the like. -Beverages - Powdered apple, grape and other drinks, including - still - that space pioneer, Tang. The rehydratable foods require the most processing at NASA. Dishes such as cauliflower with cheese, diced chicken and scrambled eggs are prepared and cooked first, usually in batches of 200 servings. Then they are placed on shelves in a freeze drier, where the moisture is sucked out; they are canned for later use. (In some cases ordinary commercial freeze-dried food made for backpackers is used.) When the food is needed for a launch, the cans are taken to a special ''clean room,'' which is enclosed by a thick plastic curtain and in which technicians garbed in hospital gowns and face masks prepare them for final use. Cleanliness is especially important to preclude gastrointestinal illness in flight. In the clean room each serving, which has been carefully weighed, is placed in a specially designed food pack, a squared-off cup made of an injection-molded high-density polyethylene. Plastic lids are put on, and each item is flushed with nitrogen to drive out decay-causing oxygen. The whole packet is then sealed under vacuum. The container has a small indentation in the base through which a large-gauge needle is later used to inject water for rehydration at mealtime in flight. Powdered beverages are packaged in the same containers. Water is produced by the orbiter's fuel cells, which generate electricity by combining hydrogen and oxygen, yielding water as a byproduct. The meals cost about $50 a day for each crew member, the cost of the food itself being trivial compared with the processing and testing. Breakfast and lunch cost about $12.50 each and dinner $25. As for taste, Col. Robert L. Stewart, the specialist who, on the February 1984 mission, maneuvered in space using a jet pack, said, ''It was very good - the dehydrated vegetables certainly tasted as good as frozen vegetables from the store.'' He said the crew's favorites included the dehydrated shrimp cocktail and most of the irradiated foods, particularly the beefsteak. No one liked broccoli, he said, ''but then we weren't broccoli eaters on the ground.'' The colonel said he did not fancy powdered eggs either, so he mixed it with taco sauce. According to Stewart, space flight did not affect appetites but seemed to affect the taste buds. ''On the ground we liked the sweet fruit juices, such as mango,'' he recalled. ''In orbit we generally found them too sweet.'' Beverages continue to pose a problem. Fruit juices do not reconstitute well after dehydration, and there is still no dried-milk product that can withstand vacuum packaging and still taste good. It is impossible to chill the drinks; there are no facilities in the craft (future shuttles may be equipped with refrigerators). It might be possible to freeze substances outside the craft in the extreme temperatures of space, but only on the side away from the sun - and the shuttle's attitude in flight changes. For every mission the food staff recommends a combination of dishes, rotating through different foods every seven days, with the menus repeating after the first week. Crew members are not obliged to follow the schedule, however, and several do not: Some eat regular meals at regular intervals; others prefer to snack. After astronauts complained about the set menus, a ''pantry'' with extra items was added. Special requests are honored if possible, such as that of the astronaut - Miss Rapp will not say which one - who asked for trail mix. Thus far no special meals have been provided for religious or medical reasons. Because unexpected emergencies can interfere with mundane tasks such as eating, Miss Rapp urges crew members to eat on schedule lest they become hungry while attending to duties. On board, meal preparation takes 30 to 60 minutes. The astronauts wash their hands in a hemispheric plastic wash station attached to the galley. The galley, installed on the middeck of the shuttle cabin, resembles galleys aboard commercial airliners. The meal packages are removed from storage and those that require rehydration are placed in a rack. Crew members dial the proper number of ounces of water required and push in the rack, automatically puncturing the seals and injecting water. Then items are placed in a convection oven above for heating to 180 degrees Fahrenheit. That is not hot enough to permit real cooking, not that shuttle crews have the time for such diversions. On the prolonged space flights expected in the future, NASA officials anticipate that some astronauts will want to cook as a form of recreation. Psychological studies of people wintering in Antarctica and other remote places have found that food can be an important reward for effort and serves as a psychological anchor in an otherwise detached and rootless environment. For these reasons administrators are considering cooking facilities in space vehicles so that a future space traveler, hit with the urge for a medium-rare steak and baked potato, could have just that. Longer flights will require closer attention to physiology. During the lengthy Skylab flights in 1973 and 1974 medical tests showed that crew members suffered a ''negative calcium balance'' - they lost bone mass - so calcium supplements may have to be added for long flights. Apart from that, space travelers of the future can expect to make few culinary sacrifices. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 18-Jan-85 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #77 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 77 Today's Topics: dining in space 1985 NASA Launch Schedule ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Jan 1985 10:54:39 PST Subject: dining in space From: Dave Dyer To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA NO REFRIGERATOR! Jeesh! Whats an astronaut to do if he craves a cold beer after a tough EVA? ------- ------------------------------ Date: 18-Jan-85 02:50 PST From: William Daul - Augmentation Systems - McDnD Subject: 1985 NASA Launch Schedule To: space@mit-mc.arpa Message-ID: Comment: This is from the January 12, 1985 SCIENCE NEWS Date / Mission / Description January 23 Shuttle Mission 51-C (Discovery) classified mission DOD payload February 20 Shuttle mission 51-E (Challenger) TDRS-B Tracking and Data Relay Satellite (NASA) Telesat I communications satellite (Canada) February Intelsat VA-B communications satellite (Intelsat) 1st quarter AF-16 USAF payload 1st quarter Navy 22 navigation satellite (DOD) March 19 Shuttle Mission 51-D (Discovery) LDEF-1 retrieval Long Duration Exposure Facility (NASA) Syncom IV-3 communications satellite (Hughes) April Intelsat VA-C communications satellite (Intelsat) April 30 Shuttle Mission 51-B (Challenger) Spacelab 3 multidisciplinary (NASA) NUSAT ATC radar plotter (Weber State College) GLOMR Global Low-Orbit Message Relay (NASA/DOD) May 30 Shuttle Mission 51-G (Discovery) Spartan 1 X-ray astronomy: deploy/retrieve (NRL) Telstar 3-D communications satellite (AT&T) Morelos A communications satellite (Mexico) Arabsat A communications satellite (Arab countries) 2nd quarter Navy 23 navigation satellite (DOD) July 9 Shuttle Mission 51-F (Challenger) Spacelab 2 multidisciplinary (NASA) August 2 Shuttle Mission 51-I (Discovery) * MSL-2 Materials Processing Laboratory 2 (NASA) AUSSAT-1 communications satellite (Australia) ASC-1 communications satellite (Amer. Sat. Corp.) Syncom IV-4 communications satellite (Hughes) August Intelsat VA-D communications satellite (Intelsat) August NOAA-G weather and search-and-rescue (NOAA) September 18 Suttle Mission 51-J (Atlantis) * classified mission DOD payload; first flight of Atlantis 3rd quarter AF-17 USAF payload October 9 Shuttle Mission 61-A (Columbia) * Spacelab D-1 multidisciplinary (Germany) October 15 Shuttle Mission 62-A (Discovery) * classified mission DOD payload; first Vandenberg launch October GOES-G weather and environment (NOAA) November 1 Shuttle Mission 61-B (Challenger) * Palapa BR-2 communications satellite (Indonesia) Morelos B communications satellite (Mexico) Satcom KU-1 communications satellite (RCA) EOS-1 electrophoresis (McDonnell Douglas) November 27 Shuttle Mission 51-L (Atlantis) * TDRS-C Tracking and Data Relay Satellite (NASA) AUSSAT-2 communications satellite (Australia) December San Marco D(l) atmosphere studies satellite (Italy/US) 4th quarter AF-18 USAF payload 4th quarter FLTSATCOM-F6 communications satellite (USN) December 20 Shuttle Mission 61-C (Columbia) * Westar VII communications satellite (Western Union) Satcom KU-2 communications satellite (RCA) MSL-3 Materials Science Laboratory 3 (NASA) EASE/ACCESS space-structures assembly test (NASA) Space shuttle missions are presently designated by a three-character code (e.g., 51-C) rather than a Space Transportation System flight number (e.g., STS-15). The first numberal indicates the last digit of the fiscal year (e.g., FY 1985); the second refers to the launch site ("1" is Kennedy Space Center in Florida, "2" is Vandenberg Air Force Base in California). The letter indicates the mission's original scheduled postion in the sequence of launches for that fiscal year. * Shuttle missions beginning with 51-I were essentially firm but not formally approved by NASA at the time of SCIENCE NEWS's deadline. Nominal launch dates and payloads may change. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 19-Jan-85 0432 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #78 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 78 Today's Topics: Cassegrain Concentrator for GaAs Photovoltaic Cells ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Jan 85 13:52:29 EST From: DIETZ@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: Cassegrain Concentrator for GaAs Photovoltaic Cells To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA Science News (Vol 126, page 280) reports TRW has developed a small concentrator for sunlight that focuses sunlight falling on a 30 cm^2 area onto a GaAs solar cell with an area of only .25 square centimeters. GaAs is more efficient than silicon for solar cells, and can operate at higher temperatures. Previous designs for Earth-built solar power sattelites have been forced to use flat GaAs cells to get reasonable power/weight ratios, and even then were uneconomical. The Cassegrainian system allows 100x less GaAs to be used. The system requires a pointing accuracy of 1 to 2 degrees, some ten times better than flat arrays, but most satellites already achieve this accuracy. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 21-Jan-85 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #79 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 79 Today's Topics: Cosmic ray source Cosmic, cont. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sunday, 20 January 1985 23:38:47 EST From: Hans.Moravec@cmu-ri-rover.arpa To: space@s1-a.arpa Subject: Cosmic ray source Message-ID: <1985.1.21.4.29.38.Hans.Moravec@cmu-ri-rover.arpa> n070 1515 19 Jan 85 AM-COSMIC 2takes Mystery Of Cosmic Ray Origin May Be Solved By WALTER SULLIVAN c.1985 N.Y. Times News Service NEW YORK - Astronomers believe they have discovered several sources of cosmic rays, the penetrating radiation that bombards the Earth from all directions. The origin of these high-energy particles has been one of the most profound mysteries of the universe. One of the sources, Cygnus X-3, a two-star system believed to lie on the outer fringes of the Milky Way, has been found to produce so much of the higher-energy cosmic rays that it could account for the galaxy's entire production of such rays. A number of scientists who attended a recent meeting of the American Astronomical Society believe the discovery is a landmark in astrophysics. Cosmic rays include the most powerful form of radiation known to science. In space, they consist primarily of high-energy protons, nuclei of hydrogen atoms, and when they strike the atmosphere they generate showers of secondary particles that reach the Earth. The belief that a large portion of them originate in Cygnus X-3 is based on observations, both from space and from the ground, showing it to be a source of extremely energetic gamma rays. Cygnus X-3 is assumed to be a pulsar, a rapidly rotating star of extreme density that circles and draws gas from a companion star. Interactions between the two apparently act as a giant particle accelerator of almost unbelievable efficiency. It is thought that the gamma rays from Cygnus X-3 are produced there by protons of even higher energy. They would, for example, carry 10 million times the energy achieved by the world's most powerful atom smasher, at Fermilab near Chicago. This great stellar accelerator generates gamma rays with energies as great as 10 million billion electron volts. Gamma rays are the most energetic form of electromagnetic waves and exist at the top end of the spectrum that includes light waves. On hitting the Earth's atmosphere, they create a cascade of particles that are absorbed and thus never reach the Earth. Cosmic ray particles, on the other hand, do contribute to the radiation environment to which all life on Earth is exposed. Scientists at the Astronomical Society meeting, held this past week in Tucson, Ariz., pointed out that much remained to be learned about how the particles are accelerated. Several methods were proposed, most of them involving the interactions between a pulsar and stellar companion. Other candidates for the high-energy cosmic ray production include a perplexing object, Geminga, which has been recorded in X-rays and gamma rays but not in radio waves, as well as the pulsar systems known as Hercules X-1 and Vela X-1. All are also far out in the Milky Way. The process at work in Cygnus X-3 or these other objects may not account for other, extremely rare cosmic ray particles that carry as much as 100 times more energy than those from Cygnus X-3. With so much energy, they are little influenced by magnetism and thus must come from their source in an almost straight line, unlike the great majority of cosmic ray particles. It is suspected that they originate beyond the Milky Way, but so few have been observed that their sources have not yet been identified. When a high-energy gamma ray hits the top of the atmosphere it generates a cascade of negatively and positively charged electrons that then produce tiny light flashes. A number of ground-based arrays of light detectors have been scanning the sky for such flashes. In Utah twin ''Fly's Eye'' detectors two miles apart are able to record the highest energy cosmic rays and have detected gammas from Hercules X-1. Another array, 33 feet in diameter, is operated by the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory on Mount Hopkins near Tucson. Observations are also conducted at stations in the Soviet Union, Japan, and Europe. Soviet scientists have proposed using large snow fields as reflectors of the ultrashort flashes, and Italian astrophysicists, performing such tests on their side of the Matterhorn, have recorded several possible events. In the 1970s, according to Dr. Trevor C. Weekes, who conducts the Smithsonian observations, Soviet astrophysicists began recording high-energy gamma ray bursts from the direction of Cygnus X-3, but their findings were largely ignored. Satellites had recorded a 4.8-hour cycle in X-ray emissions from that source, indicating that that was the time it took for the neutron star to circle its stellar companion. Gamma rays modulated by this cycle were detected by the Crimean Astrophysical Observatory in the Soviet Union, the observatory on Mount Hopkins, and mirrors of a solar energy facility of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California. None, however, were of extremely high energy. Then astronomers in Kiel, West Germany, recorded Cygnus X-3 gammas with energies as high as one million billion electron volts, which was soon confirmed by scientists at the University of Leeds in England. Finally, as noted in Tucson by Dr. A.H. Hillas, of the Leeds group, it was found that some of the gammas were even more energetic. These, he believes, are generated by protons accelerated to 100 million billion electron volts colliding with a gaseous envelope around the nearby star. This would produce twin bursts of gamma rays as the pulsar rotates. In a recent issue of the journal Nature, he proposed that in this way Cygnus X-3 ''seems likely to be responsible'' for most of the cosmic ray particles of that energy produced in the entire galaxy. At the Tucson meeting Dr. Kenneth Brecher of Boston University and G. Chanmugam of Louisiana State University proposed that the acceleration was performed by an intense electric field generated as a disk of material falls into the pulsar, or neutron star. A group from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, based on observations by High Energy Astronomy Observatory 3, deduced that the neutron star within Cygnus X-3 generated a magnetic field 10,000 billion times stronger than that of the Earth and acted on particles like the atom-smashing accelerators known as cyclotrons. nn nyt-01-19-85 1821est *************** ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 20 January 1985 23:59:21 EST From: Hans.Moravec@cmu-ri-rover.arpa To: space@mit-mc.arpa Subject: Cosmic, cont. Message-ID: <1985.1.21.4.58.51.Hans.Moravec@cmu-ri-rover.arpa> n116 2202 19 Jan 85 AM-COSMIC Addatend NYT NEW YORK: as cyclotrons. The Cygnus X-3 discovery has been a step-by-step process dating from the initial detection of cosmic rays early in this century. Attempts to produce a radiation-free environment for research were frustrated by a form of radiation that penetrated even into deep mines. When, in 1912, the Austrian physicist Victor N. Hess sought to trace the radiation's origin by ascending in a balloon, he found that instead of becoming weaker, the radiation became more intense as he rose. Because, like X-rays, the radiation was penetrating, it came to be called cosmic ''rays.'' It was found, however, that the radiation became more intense near the poles, as though influenced by the Earth's magnetic field. This showed that it consisted largely of electrically charged particles, such as protons, rather than radiation akin to light waves, such as X-rays and gamma rays. The protons are the nuclei of hydrogen atoms, forming by far the most abundant form of matter in the universe. The nuclei of heavier atoms are also detected in the rays, though far less frequently. Because such cosmic ray particles are electrically charged, the paths of all but the heaviest and most energetic are bent by magnetic fields - not only that of the Earth but those throughout the solar system and galaxy. As a result, they arrive uniformly from all directions, providing no hint of their origin. It became evident, however, that the weakest rays come from the Sun and it is suspected that some of intermediate energy originated in great star explosions, or supernovas. Early clues to distant sources came in the 1960s and early 1970s from satellite observations of the heavens at X-ray wavelengths. These revealed a number of pulsars - pulsing sources of radio waves and X-rays assumed to be extremely dense, fast-spinning stars surrounded by rotating magnetic fields of enormous intensity. It was proposed then that these fields throw off cosmic ray particles like water droplets from a rotating sprinkler, but this could not be confirmed and did not explain the very high energy rays. Attention focused on one such source, Cygnus X-3, in the constellation Cygnus. It proved subject to catastrophic flareups at radio wavelengths. For one month in 1972 it was, despite its great distance, one of the most intense sources of radio emission in the sky. nyt-01-20-85 0101est *************** ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 23-Jan-85 0404 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #80 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 80 Today's Topics: They'll do it every time... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Jan 85 16:38:05 EST From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: They'll do it every time... To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A Empty Space Talk R. Jeffrey Smith Science Vol 227, 1/18/85, pg 276 Last month, when the Washington Post published secret information about the forthcoming all-military flight of the space shuttle, it was immediately accused by Secretary of Defense Caspar Weniberger of offering "aid and comfort to the enemy." But nothing in the Post's account, or in similar stories appearing elsewhere, offers the Soviet Union infromation that cannot be deduced from the voluminous unclassified literature available to armchair analysts. Nor were any truly sensitive data revealed, such as how the satellite works or its precise technical limitations. This is freely admitted in private by knowledgeable officials in the Department of Defense. Why then did Weinberger make such a chilling accusation? the most likely explanation is that he wants to discourage reporting about satellites that may be launched by the shuttle in the future, whose overall purpose could effectively be masked. This is not an unreasonable Defense Department goal. The trouble is that it seems senseless in this particular case, especially when backed by government threats to investigate mere speculation. The Pentagon also botched its explanation of a policy for the release of information about the forthcoming military shuttle mission, as well as those to follow. Officials said that they will not reveal launch or flight trajectories and altitudes for either the shuttle or its payload. This information can readily be obtained by Soviet reconaissance ships and intelligence satellites, but Air Force personnel claimed that its denial would help confuse the Soviets and make their task more difficult. Instead of offering this lame explanation, they might have revealed the real purpose: to prevent an attack on the shuttle by foreign or domestic terrorists during or shortly after its launch, and to forestall Soviet countermeasures against flights intended solely for reconaissance rather than satellite deployment. ++++ End As HAL said in 2010, "Thank you for telling me the truth." - Dale Amon ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 29-Jan-85 0412 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #81 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 81 Today's Topics: Nemesis location Halley's comet ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Monday, 28 January 1985 08:25:42 EST From: Hans.Moravec@cmu-ri-rover.arpa To: space@s1-a.arpa Subject: Nemesis location Message-ID: <1985.1.28.13.24.54.Hans.Moravec@cmu-ri-rover.arpa> n078 1708 27 Jan 85 BC-NEMESIS By WALTER SULLIVAN c.1985 N.Y. Times News Service NEW YORK - A possible location of Nemesis, the star blamed by some scientists for mass extinctions on the Earth every 26 million years, has been calculated to be in the constellation Draco, not far from the Little Dipper. The calculation has been performed by Dr. Armand H. Delsemme, a Belgian-born astronomer at the University of Toledo, in Ohio, based on the orbits of comets that seem to have been disrupted from their normal orbits. Delsemme has assumed that the orbits of the 126 comets least altered by close passage of planets would still show the effects of disruption by passage of a small star or very large planet through the outer reaches of the solar system. According to a group at the University of California, in Berkeley, periodic penetration of the cloud of comets surrounding the solar system by a star they have named Nemesis scatters the comets, sending millions of them plunging toward the Earth and other planets. The resulting impacts, they theorize, would account for periodic extinctions including that of the dinosaurs 65 million years ago. Delsemme has calculated the most probable path of the star around the sun from a lopsided distribution of comet orbits. He has estimated the star's present position based on the assumption that the last mass extinction occurred 13 million years ago. Several astronomers have said they will search that location for a faint red dwarf star. Delsemme, however, does not believe that it has to be a star. It could, he says, be a giant planet 20 to 60 times more massive than Jupiter. Such an object might glow sufficiently at infrared wavelengths to be observable. A surprising number of the comets in one region of space are circling the Sun opposite to the direction of most solar system objects, which Delsemme sees as a clue to the path of Nemesis. To produce its effect on the comets, he said in a telephone interview, the object had to move through the comet cloud at relatively slow velocity, as would be true of an object tied gravitationally to the sun. A one-time visitor from distant space would plunge through the cloud too fast to produce the observed changes, he added. He said the new timetable of extinctions, by David M. Raup and J. John Sepkoski, of the University of Chicago, appears to rule out previous estimates of the recurrence rate that exceeded 30 million years. These were based on the timetable of impacts sufficient to leave giant craters on the earth's surface or on periodic passages of the solar system through the debris-cluttered disk of the Milky Way Galaxy. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 29 January 1985 07:16:51 EST From: Hans.Moravec@cmu-ri-rover.arpa To: space@s1-a.arpa Subject: Halley's comet Message-ID: <1985.1.29.12.12.53.Hans.Moravec@cmu-ri-rover.arpa> n144 0212 29 Jan 85 BC-SCIENCE-WATCH Undated (ScienceTimes) c.1985 N.Y. Times News Service Astronomers atop Hawaii's highest volcano have made what they believe to be the first infrared observations of Halley's Comet. From the results they estimate the radius of its nucleus to be four miles. Previous estimates of comet nucleus diameters have ranged from 1,000 feet for smaller comets to as much as 40 miles for a few very rare ones. Until recently it has only been possible to guess the diameters because, by the time comets penetrate far enough into the Solar System to be easily observed, they are enveloped in a cloud, or ''coma,'' that hides the nucleus. Radar observations have provided clues to the sizes of small comets passing near the Earth but cannot detect such small targets at great distances. The astronomers in Hawaii used Britain's giant infrared telescope, which has a reflecting dish 150 feet in diameter. It is among a growing number of observatories clustered on the summit of Mauna Kea, an extinct volcano almost 14,000 feet high on the island of Hawaii. Because the air above it contains very little water vapor, which absorbs infrared radiation, the site is ideal for such observations. In two runs of 25 minutes each the telescope was programmed to follow the comet's predicted path. A nearby area of sky was viewed to record background glow that could then be subtracted from the comet scanning. Brightness of the nucleus ''would imply'' a radius of four miles, the astronomers reported to the Central Bureau for International Telegrams at the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory in Cambridge, England. They assumed a plausible reflectivity, or ''albedo,'' for the nucleus and noted that a contribution from light scattering by dust ''cannot be excluded.'' The report was submitted by astronomers from Leicester University, the Royal Observatory in Edinburgh and the University of Kent. nyt-01-29-85 0513est *************** ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 01-Feb-85 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #82 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 82 Today's Topics: State of Union ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 31 Jan 85 22:08:46 EST From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: State of Union To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A Does anyone know when the State of the Union address is this year? ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 05-Feb-85 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #83 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 83 Today's Topics: The space station program stretched out in the budget ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Feb 1985 13:06:14-EST From: glenn at ll-vlsi To: space@mit-mc Subject: The space station program stretched out in the budget The Feb 4 wall street journal details the effect of the new budget on the NASA space station. Unfortunately the second year funding is being cut by 18% from $280 million to $230M. This will stretch out the expected date of in orbit completion to about 1995 from the target year of 1992. There was some good news though, overall NASA outlays will rise to $7.7 billion, up 6% (about 2% in constant dollars). There is one other bad result of this stretch out. The Europeans just agreed to put the money for their portion of the space station. There was one condition, that there be an agreement with the US which fixes the main timetable of the project. They want this because in both the Spacelab and Solar Polar projects the Europeans started joint projects with this country, and found the US backing out of large portions of the deal at later dates. The effect of launch delays etc on those two programs was to increase the ESA's costs by about 50%. OK, now here we are in year 2 of this program and already the cutting is occurring from the budget side. With everything but the military being cut somewhat in this budget I doubt that the congress will go along with even this amount. What is going to happen in later years when the peak station funding is expected to be $1.2 billion. Unfortunately I suspect that this will become another shuttle program stretched out so that the final result takes about 50% longer than expected, while the project size is cut and the end program made to be less useful than envisioned. How can other countries agree to work with the US in space when the goverment never seems to make a plan and stick to it. Glenn Chapman ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 09-Feb-85 0404 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #84 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 84 Today's Topics: PARTI Electure ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 08 Feb 85 10:32:46 EST From: "Bob Czech" <939@NJIT-EIES.MAILNET> To: space@mit-mc cc: *LISA*@NJIT-EIES.MAILNET Subject: PARTI Electure Message-ID: Blast off into space this spring on PARTI on The Source by joining the ELECTURE "SPACE - Humanizing the Universe." Dr. Paul Levinson will lead PARTIcipants in an interactive exploration of how access to new dimensions of the universe may change our outlook on the future. Using material from his forthcoming books, _Mind at Large: Knowing in the Technological Age_ and a science fiction novel, _A Deuce of a Time_, Dr. Levinson will discuss the implications of space travel, the role of technology in cognitive evolution, the pros and cons of the "star wars" defense, and the very nature of time and space. A prolific writer on media, technology, and space, Dr. Levinson is also an expert on the implications of electronic communications systems and their use as educational media. In addition to being on the faculty of the Media Studies program at the New School for Social Research he is the Director of Connected Education and an online professor for the Western Behavioral Sciences Institute. He has published extensively on technology and its implications for society. In inviting Source members to consider the issues which he will raise in the ELECTURE on "Space" Dr. Levinson says, "I like to think that such thoughts may have a certain uniqueness in the long stretch of human history: they may be among the last thoughts about the human role in space to be thought before we went on to achieve that destiny." ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 12-Feb-85 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #85 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 85 Today's Topics: SPACE digest gateway at MORDOR (S1-C) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Feb 85 15:58:26 pst From: John Bruner Message-Id: <8502112358.AA25974@mordor.ARPA> To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: SPACE digest gateway at MORDOR (S1-C) I have set up a gateway between the ARPANET SPACE digest and the USENET newsgroups "net.columbia" and "net.space" here on "mordor" (S1-C). I believe that the gateway is loop-free; however, should you start seeing articles which are repeated, you should flame at me (mordor!jdb, jdb@mordor) rather than SPACE-REQUEST@MIT-MC. -- John Bruner (S-1 Project, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory) MILNET: jdb@mordor.ARPA [jdb@s1-c] (415) 422-0758 UUCP: ...!ucbvax!dual!mordor!jdb ...!decvax!decwrl!mordor!jdb ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 13-Feb-85 0406 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #86 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 86 Today's Topics: "Severe Erosion" of Shuttle's Market Position Re: Space Burial Re: Re: Re: Shuttle Project? Re: Re: Re: Shuttle Project? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Feb 1985 19:05:03-EST From: glenn at ll-vlsi To: space@mit-mc Subject: "Severe Erosion" of Shuttle's Market Position The Feb 7 '84 edition of Aerospace Daily reported some statements of James Beggs, NASA's administrator, to a congressional committee. In these he stated that he was not now certain that a fifth orbiter would be needed because of a recent "severe erosion" in the space shuttle's market position. In the past 14 months the European Space Agency's Ariane series has captured 50% of the commercial launch contracts, with the Shuttle getting the remainder. In addition the Defense Department has decided to put 2 launches per year on single use boosters while NOAO has decided to use Titan II's for 3 up comming weather satelite orbitings. With the Shuttle launch prices rising by 1988 this may have an even larger impact. Each reduction of launch level over what they had expected for the Shuttle will increase it's costs to NASA. The fifth shuttle now was looked on as a way of keeping a fully operational fleet into the year 2000 decade if it is built several years from now. (This will be necessary because a shuttle follow on cannot come before the current ships have exceeded their expected lifetimes.) Meanwhile he said that the Ariane 5 project, now funded by the ESA, would extend Europe's space capabilities considerably. Let us hope that these statements do not give some space opponents more ammunition to try and kill the fifth shuttle. Glenn Chapman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Feb 85 16:30:42 pst Message-Id: <8502130030.AA01727@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: mot!al (Al Filipski) Subject: Re: Space Burial >Yes, you can be buried in space! Just have someone send your cremated remains >("cremains," as they were called in the news story on NPR this morning) to SSI >(not to be confused with the Princeton-based Space Studies Institute, also >called SSI), and they will further reduce them to fit into a capsule >approximately 1" by 1-1/4" which will be inscribed with your name, social >security number, and (optional) religious symbol of your choice. Then a >capsule containing several thousand of these will be placed into low earth >orbit (through the Van Allen Belt, which has very little satellite traffic). Compact little shapes? (like what the Kelvans did to the crew of the Enterprise) Low Earth orbit? What a drag. I think I'll wait until they can give my carcass enough energy to leave the solar system. I can't decide whether I'd like to have my arms outstretched like Superman or maybe even go feet first. Imparting a stately slow roll to the body might be dignified but I'd be mad if they set that sucker tumbling arsey-varsey. Real comforting, thinking about gliding along that infinite mean free path until you sublimate. Better than a pyramid. -------------------------------- Alan Filipski, UNIX group, Motorola Microsystems, Tempe, AZ U.S.A {seismo | ihnp4 } ! ut-sally ! oakhill ! mot ! al -------------------------------- she canna' take much more o' this, captain ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Feb 85 19:30:38 pst Message-Id: <8502130330.AA02529@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: pbear!peterb Subject: Re: Re: Re: Shuttle Project? >> but if the string is played in vacuum, then the friction of the air >> is removed, and the sutain is much longer. > >Sustain of what? No air -- no sound. >-- >Richard Foulk (..islenet!bigtuna!richard) Its an electric guitar, so it doesn't need air to create sound. (use an amp) Peter Barada ima!pbear!peterb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Feb 85 22:18:40 pst Message-Id: <8502130618.AA02966@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: intelca!cem (Chuck McManis) Subject: Re: Re: Re: Shuttle Project? > but if the string is played in vacuum, then the friction of the air > is removed, and the sutain is much longer. > Peter Barada > ima!pbear!peterb I believe this should read, "If the string is played in vacuum, then the medium for the sound waves is removed and the sustain is zero, as it never gets to pickup." -Chuck - - - D I S C L A I M E R - - - {ihnp4,fortune}!dual\ All opinions expressed herein are my {qantel,idi}-> !intelca!cem own and not those of my employer, my {ucbvax,hao}!hplabs/ friends, or my avocado plant. :-} ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 14-Feb-85 0405 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #87 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 87 Today's Topics: Re: Re: Re: Shuttle Project? Space burial New optical telescopes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Feb 85 07:41:43 pst Message-Id: <8502131541.AA04304@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: umcp-cs!chris (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: Re: Re: Shuttle Project? Re: "if it's in a vacuum, how can you call it sustain?" --Easy: whoever said you couldn't use an inductive pickup? (Well OK that *will* damp the vibration eventually, but...) Can we just forget this whole topic? -- In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251) UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@maryland ------------------------------ Date: Wed 13 Feb 85 14:39:15-EST From: Rob Austein Subject: Space burial To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Office: [NE43-502] 545 Technology Square, Cambridge MA 02139; (617) 253-7341 > I think I'll wait until they can give my carcass enough energy to > leave the solar system. You can get that now. All you need is to find a company that'll outfit your cadaver with a light sail. 'Course, you might have a bit of a problem making planetfall at .999c .... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 85 12:27:50 pst From: Ross Finlayson Subject: New optical telescopes To: space@mit-mc n104 2041 11 Feb 85 BC-TELESCOPES 2takes (Science Times) By WALTER SULLIVAN c.1985 N.Y. Times News Service NEW YORK - Radical new techniques for making giant telescopes are being developed, holding the promise of opening up new views of the universe. These large-scale optical devices, some of them planned to be more than twice the size of the biggest telescopes operating today, will be able to look far enough out across the universe, and therefore back in time, to record its infancy. They should also be able to look deep into the core of the Milky Way and into other galaxies to seek out the nature of the mysterious ''engines'' generating vast amounts of energy there. Conventional telescopes have been limited in size by the extreme difficulty of casting very large blocks of glass, polishing them into large mirrors of exactly the necessary shape, and then maintaining that shape despite the effects of temperature and sag as they sweep the skies. The new telescopes, all of them proven in tests but not yet in full-scale operation, are being made possible by such innovations as mass production of large mirrors in swirling baths of molten glass, liquid mirrors formed of large, fast-spinning basins of mercury, and the use of multiple conventional telescopes linked together in the fashion of the large arrays of antennas used in radio astronomy. How soon the new methods will be put to use will depend on the rate at which funds become available, and on success in overcoming problems that will inevitably arise in bringing the new technologies involved to full implementation. The telescope most likely to achieve ''first light'' - the initial passage of starlight through its optical system - is the 10-meter (394-inch) telescope to be built in Hawaii by the California Institute of Technology and the University of California. The project seems almost assured by a conditional offer of $70 million to Cal Tech by the foundation formed by the late W.M. Keck, founder of the Superior Oil Co. His son, Howard B. Keck, is a trustee of the California Institute of Technology. The telescope, to be known as the Keck Observatory, would be far larger than the Soviet Union's six-meter reflector in the Caucasus mountains or the five-meter one on Mount Palomar in California, currently the world's two largest reflecting telescopes. The mirror for the Keck Observatory, formed of 36 hexagonal segments, would be twice the width of the one at Palomar. According to Dr. Marvin L. Goldberger, president of Caltech, it will ''provide answers to the most challenging and basic questions of the universe.'' Among them, he said, are ''how the universe originated, whether or not the universe is continually expanding or will ultimately fall back on itself, why and how galaxies and stars formed and evolved, and how the four basic forces of nature controlled the early history of the universe.'' The mirror's segments will have to be formed in various asymmetrical shapes to form a parabolic mirror when fitted together. They are to be produced by a novel ''bend and polish'' method developed by Dr. Jerry E. Nelson of the University of California, at Berkeley. The glass is distorted according to an elaborate mathematical formula developed by his colleague, Dr. Jacob Lubliner, and is then ground by a machine producing curvature similar to that on the inside of a sphere. When the tension is removed the glass springs into the desired part of the mirror's shape. During observations the segments will have to be constantly adjusted to maintain the entire assemblage's precise shape despite sag and temperature effects. Such a system is under development at Berkeley as well as a way to cut the finished segments into hexagons without altering them. To test the grinding method, a small-scale segment has been ground there; a full-scale one, two meters in diameter, is in the final polishing stages in optical shops of the National Optical Astronomy Observatories in Tucson, Ariz., which administers several national observatories including the one on nearby Kitt Peak. A site for the Keck Observatory has been allocated on a 13,600-foot ridge atop Mauna Kea, a supposedly extinct volcano on the island of Hawaii. It would join a growing population of observatories there, including a 7.5-meter reflector planned by the Japanese. As pointed out by Dr. Jesse L. Greenstein of Caltech in the February issue of Physics Today, the Keck telescope, with its huge light-collecting area, will be able to conduct observations far beyond the reach of the Space Telescope to be launched in 1986. A completely different approach has been proposed for the even larger New Technology National Telescope that would probably be built either on Mauna Kea or on 10,720-foot Mount Graham, 76 miles northeast of Tucson. Its four mirrors, with the combined power of a 15-meter telescope, would ride in a single mount as in the Multiple Mirror Telescope on Mount Hopkins south of Tucson. It has been the success of that novel assembly, operated jointly by the University of Arizona's Steward Observatory and the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory, that led to the choice of such a design over the one planned for the California telescope, although both approaches were considered viable. The six mirrors of the Multiple Mirror Telescope on Mount Hopkins, each 1.8 meters (72 inches) in diameter, are installed like guns on a large naval gunmount and their images combined by a system of optics. Mirrors for the National New Technology Telescope, or NNTT, would be more than four times as wide. Dr. Roger Angel and Dr. Neville Woolf of the Steward Observatory in Tucson believe they can minimize their cost by casting the mirrors from molten glass in a rapidly rotating electric oven. A bowl of fast-spinning fluid assumes the parabolic shape required for mirrors that focus light waves from a distant source to a single point. A two-meter (79-inch) mirror has already been cast by rotating the oven 16 times a minute, although, according to Woolf, it took some time to find a technician who could ride the control console of the spinning oven without becoming dizzy. This will not be a problem with the giant new oven, capable of casting mirrors eight meters wide. It will spin 10 times a minute under remote control. Housing for the oven is being built under the university stadium. While the glass surface that solidifies as the oven cools is parabolic, it is far from perfect enough to serve as a mirror. For further polishing a computer-controlled lapping device has been designed to produce such a surface, rather than one that is spherical. Budget cuts and constraints in Washington have diminished short-term prospects for the NNTT, particularly if the California project moves ahead, but development of the requisite technology is proceeding in expectation that it will ultimately be built. Meanwhile, Canadian astronomers have revived a long-discussed scheme for producing large mirrors by spinning basins of mercury. In 1924, as Mars began to make an unusually close approach to the Earth, David Todd, head of the astronomy department at Amherst College, proposed rotating a mercury-filled basin 50 feet wide at the bottom of an abandoned mine shaft in Chile. The shaft was so located that Mars would pass directly overhead, and Todd said his instrument would make it appear only two miles away, making it possible to determine whether the planet was inhabited. Astronomers ridiculed the scheme, saying atmospheric effects would produce a meaningless blur. Nevertheless, astronomers at Laval University in Quebec have been testing such mirrors. E.F. Borra of that group has proposed that mirrors 30 meters (98 feet) wide could be achieved, and some with a width of 1.65 meters (65 inches) have been tested. The Canadians reported to an international conference on very large telescopes in Garching, West Germany, last April that the results ''seem to indicate that large liquid mirrors are feasible.'' To produce a sharp image, however, the rotation must be extremely stable. Such a mirror would have to be aimed vertically, but by means of movable mirrors it could scan the rotating canopy of the heavens. The cost could be kept very low by placing the mirror at the bottom of a standard farm silo. The Steward Observatory group hopes its spinning oven can produce mirrors not only for the National New Technology Telescope but for its own projected observatory on Mount Graham and for a multi-telescope European observatory in Chile. The European Southern Observatory, based at Garching near Munich but with its prime observing site at La Silla, Chile, is building a 3.5-meter (138-inch) New Technology Telescope as the final step toward a Very Large Telescope, which would consist of four eight-meter telescopes with the combined power of a 16-meter instrument. The tentative plan is to align the telescopes 30 meters (98 feet) apart on a summit in northern Chile. They would be linked optically to produce combined images. At infrared wavelengths they could also be used in pairs for extremely detailed surveys of such critical areas as the cores of the Milky Way and other galaxies, using the technique known as interferometry. The core of the Milky Way cannot be observed at visual wavelengths because of intervening dust and gas. The California plan provides for ultimate construction on Mauna Kea of a second large telescope linked to the first for similar interferometric observations. Interferometry has enabled radio astronomers, using multiple antennas, to map distant sources of radio emission in extraordinary detail. Because wavelengths of light are much shorter the technology is far more demanding. The distances traveled by light waves from two telescopes, when brought together to produce the interference phenomenon, must be identical with high precision. A French group led by Antoine Labeyrie has been testing this approach at the observatory of CERGA (Centre d'Etudes et de Recherche Geodynamiques et Astronomiques) in the Alps overlooking the French Riviera. Two 10-inch telescopes are held in spherical mounts that can be rotated in the manner that a circus animal, on its back, spins a large ball with its feet. ''Reproducing the natural walking motion of animals requires very sophisticated software,'' the meeting in Garching was told. The mounts ride on a north-south rail line that permits various separations. Trials at distances up to 52 feet have shown the method applicable at infrared wavelengths (longer than those of visible light) but susceptible to such subtle effects as Earth tremors that vary path lengths through the array. For Europe's Very Large Telescope the group has proposed an array of four instruments in spherical mounts riding on a grid of north-south, east-west rail lines. Several U.S. observatories hope to use interferometry between smaller telescopes to track star movements precisely enough to see if they are influenced by planetary companions. The University of Texas has been planning a 7.6-meter telescope in West Texas but its prospects have been dimmed by the drop in oil revenues that account for much of the university's income. nyt-02-11-85 2353est ********** ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 15-Feb-85 0404 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #88 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 88 Today's Topics: leaving the net for several months Re: Re: Re: Shuttle Project? NASA doesn't give in Buried 6000 miles ABOVE the ground Flight by Muscle and Brain Tales from the Orbital Crypt Re: Orphaned Response ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 Feb 85 07:36:45 pst Message-Id: <8502141536.AA08156@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ames!eugene (Eugene Miya) Subject: leaving the net for several months due to an accident breaking my leg and an arm, china visit commitments, and usenix commitment, i have to stop posting nasa toc information and other nasa point of contact info. my keystokes have to go into my computer research. i will try to read the group when i'm having a lull, but the best i can do is designate someone else in nasa to answer questions when they come. several requests such as one for a solar system simulation and others, i am still trying to fill, but i cannot take new ones. see you after june usenix! let's make this the best. --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,vortex}!ames!aurora!eugene emiya@ames-vmsb.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 85 07:48:43 pst Message-Id: <8502141548.AA08284@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: amdahl!ems (E. Michael Smith) Subject: Re: Re: Re: Shuttle Project? > > > > but if the string is played in vacuum, then the friction of the air > > is removed, and the sutain is much longer. > > > > I believe this should read, "If the string is played in vacuum, then the > medium for the sound waves is removed and the sustain is zero, as it never > gets to pickup." > I think the original was in the context of an *ELECTRIC* guitar or some such, where the pickup is magnetic anyway. The string still vibrates, the mag pickup still works, the sustain of the vibrations will be longer, the tone might even change... Why not try something where a magnetic pickup us used to 'listen to space' or some such by picking up ambiant mag fields? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 85 07:51:54 pst Message-Id: <8502141551.AA08324@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: kvue!spangler (Lance Spangler) Subject: NASA doesn't give in It seems some people never forget. This article was gleaned from a United Press International wire story, which has been rewritten to avoid the conflicts some USENET'ers are worrying about these days. (Washington) --- The National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA to nearly everyone except newspaper writers) announced today (2-12) that the agency has refused to take back the Distinguished Service Medal awarded to German rocket engineer Arthur Rudolph. You may remember, Rudolph left the United States last year after a Justice Department probe into his World War Two activities in Germany. He voluntarily surrendered his American citizenship amid charges he had used slave labor to build Nazi V-2 rockets during the last years of World War Two. According to Justice Department spokesmen at the time of the investigation, it was believed he participated in the persecution of laborers from concentration camps from 1943 to 1945. Rudolph worked for NASA after US authorities brought him to the United States following the end of WW II. He was a director of the Saturn 5 rocket project and played a key role in putting men on the moon. The whole affair came about after Elizabeth Holtzman, a New York District Attorney wrote to President Reagan, requesting that the medal be withdrawn. But the Chief of Special Events for NASA, Eugene Marianetti said in a letter to Holtzman that...quoting now..."To rescind the medal would serve no useful purpose since it has nothing in common with the allegation brought against him." PERSONAL OPINION FOLLOWS - I for one am glad to see a government official refuse to bow to the pressure of a special interest group. While having only read about Rudolph's accomplishments, it's apparent to me that the United States does owe the man gratitude for helping build the rocket that put us on the moon. To take away a token symbol of our thanks would be a slap in the face to a man who has probably lost more in his life than most of us would ever have. I'm not condoning his alledged actions during World War Two, only saying that enough is enough. The only thing we have to Lance Spangler fear is computing itself. Senior News Producer :-) KVUE Television Austin, Texas UUCP {ihnp4|seismo|ctvax|ucb-vax}!ut-sally!kvue!spangler TELCO 512-459-1433 (Pvt. line to my desk) 512-346-4447 (Home - good in the evenings) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 85 07:52:11 pst Message-Id: <8502141552.AA08331@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: kvue!spangler (Lance Spangler) Subject: Buried 6000 miles ABOVE the ground Net.space readers might be interested in this item from UPI on Feb. 12. It deals with SSI's plan to launch the cremated remains of people into outer space. (It's been rewritten to avoid the copyright problems that have been mentioned recently.) (Washington) The government has given the go-ahead to preliminary plans for America's only private rocket company to carry cremated remains into space in late 1986 or early 1987. The Department of Transportation said today it has given tenative approval for the first commercial proposal to come under the agency's new licensing authority. Space Services Incorporated of Houston, Texas wants to use its own small "Conestoga" rocket to carry the ashes of more than 10-thousand people into a 19-hundred-mile-high orbit. The container will remain there, in the Van Allen Radiation Belt for at least 63 million years according to officials with SSI. Recently, the DOT was given the authority to oversee commercial space activities. The department says it issued permission to proceed after consulting with the State Department, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, and the Department of Defense. According to company spokesmen, the cost for putting a loved one into (almost) eternal orbit will be about 39-hundred dollars. The same spokesman adds that the cost isn't much more than an earthly funeral would cost. Cost of the cremation isn't included in the launch price. Reportedly, the first launch will carry the remains of some 200 people. Earlier news reports had indicated the nosecone of the Conestoga rocket would be plated with a highly reflective material allowing loved ones on earth to view their dearly departed pass overhead with the use of a telescope. The only thing we have to Lance Spangler fear is computing itself. Senior News Producer :-) KVUE Television Austin, Texas UUCP {ihnp4|seismo|ctvax|ucb-vax}!ut-sally!kvue!spangler TELCO 512-459-1433 (Pvt. line to my desk) 512-346-4447 (Home - good in the evenings) ------------------------------ Date: 14 Feb 1985 14:11-PST Sender: WARD@USC-ISIF.ARPA Subject: Flight by Muscle and Brain From: Craig E. Ward To: BBoard@USC-ISIB.ARPA Cc: Space@MIT-MC.ARPA, Aviation@MIT-MC.ARPA Message-ID: <[USC-ISIF.ARPA]14-Feb-85 14:11:47.WARD> The local chapter of the L5 Society, OASIS, is hosting a talk by Paul MacCready this coming Tuesday, February 19, 1985 in the Kinsey Auditorium of the California Museum of Science and Industry at 7:00pm. Paul MacCready is the designer of the Gossamer Condor and other human powered aircraft. He has won several prizes for his aircraft including the first successful human-powered flight across the English Channel. His presentation promises to be an interesting one. In addition, NASA films of recent shuttle missions will be shown which will include spectacular footage of satellite rescues. Admission is free and open to the public. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Feb 85 1535 PST From: Tom Wadlow Subject: Tales from the Orbital Crypt To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA I read in one of the local papers that the SSI plan for space burial involved reducing the corpses to a very small size (roughly test-tube sized containers of ashes, I think) for placement in the orbital crypt. I wonder how much of a light sail it would take to reach system escape velocity for such a payload, given: - You don't care how long it takes. (After all, you're dead) - All systems are likely to be entirely passive. Ideally, you might like to engrave a message on the container, and have the sail be a good optical and EMF reflector, but you can probably avoid the necessity for guidance or beacons. This would be a dandelion-seed flight, going *away* from the Sun. - It must be launchable from Shuttle orbits. This may be the kicker. I recall reading that there is a minimum workable altitude for lightsails, due to residual atmospheric drag or something. An orbiting crypt might be nice, I suppose, but if you could send your remains as sort of a message-in-a-bottle on a flight to the stars, it would be a lot more attractive, I suspect. --Tom ------------------------------ id AA11204; Thu, 14 Feb 85 23:39:38 pst Date: Thu, 14 Feb 85 23:39:38 pst Message-Id: <8502150739.AA11204@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: uiucdcs!irwin Subject: Re: Orphaned Response No, electric guitars do not need air. The pick-up is not a microphone, but rather a magnetic transducer. The pole piece in the transducer senses the proximity of the string to the pole piece, producing a signal at the output of the transducer based on the distance of the string from the magnetic pole piece. This way no foreign noise is picked up (background) such as sneeze, cough, etc. A recording could be made of an electric guitar in space, and played on earth to see what had been created in space. (The speakers would then have air to transmit the sound). ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 16-Feb-85 0432 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #89 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 89 Today's Topics: Flush the automatic posting of usenet space messages [Craig E. Ward : Flight by Muscle and B...] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 15 Feb 85 12:14:33-EST From: Sidney Markowitz Subject: Flush the automatic posting of usenet space messages To: space@MIT-MC, space-request@MIT-MC I would like to call for a vote concerning the recently implemented connection to the usenet newsgroups. Up until now SPACE digest has mostly consisted of informational articles and discussions conducted at a surprisingly high level, considering that it is compiled in an automated fashion, rather than edited by hand as are most arpanet digests. Now my mail box is being filled with trivial conversations and redundant messages. Can we have a separate mailing list for those who really want to receive net.space and net.columbia (or whatever they're called)? This message is intended to be an announcement, and as such has been mailed to the digest itself. Please mail your responses to space-request instead, and then we won't have to read through endless discussion on the matter before we find out what the mailing-list moderator's decision is. Flames to me, or preferably to your local equivalent of /dev/nul/. By the way, I am not proposing that usenet readers not be able to read the Space Digest. There exists the fa.newsgroups just for that purpose, or the precedent of AIList Digest which is posted on net.ai. -- Sidney Markowitz, ------- ------------------------------ Date: 15 Feb 1985 15:03-PST Sender: WARD@USC-ISIF.ARPA Subject: [Craig E. Ward : Flight by Muscle and B...] From: Craig E. Ward To: Space@MIT-MC.ARPA, Aviation@MIT-MC.ARPA Message-ID: <[USC-ISIF.ARPA]15-Feb-85 15:03:39.WARD> It has been brought to my attention that "local" looses some of its meaning over the net so you need to replace "local" with "Los Angles". Sorry about that. Begin forwarded message Date: 14 Feb 1985 14:11-PST From: Craig E. Ward Subject: Flight by Muscle and Brain The local chapter of the L5 Society, OASIS, is hosting a talk by Paul MacCready this coming Tuesday, February 19, 1985 in the Kinsey Auditorium of the California Museum of Science and Industry at 7:00pm. Paul MacCready is the designer of the Gossamer Condor and other human powered aircraft. He has won several prizes for his aircraft including the first successful human-powered flight across the English Channel. His presentation promises to be an interesting one. In addition, NASA films of recent shuttle missions will be shown which will include spectacular footage of satellite rescues. Admission is free and open to the public. -------------------- End forwarded message ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 17-Feb-85 0406 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #90 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 90 Today's Topics: Re: Re: Shuttle Project? Guitars in a space suit? Makes me fret! Re: Orphaned Response (Guitars in sapace) Re: Re: Re: Shuttle Project? Guitar in Space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 16 Feb 85 12:05:30 pst Message-Id: <8502162005.AA16340@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: utzoo!kcarroll (Kieran A. Carroll) Subject: Re: Re: Shuttle Project? Electric guitars' sound is picked up by magnetic transducers on the body of the guitar; that's why electric guitars have steel strings, rather than gut ones. This effect will work perfectly well in the absence of air, and is the reason that this makes an interesting experiment for a music teacher to try out in space (well, >sort of< interesting...) -Kieran A. Carroll ...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 85 12:17:12 pst Message-Id: <8502162017.AA16476@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: alice!jj Subject: Guitars in a space suit? Makes me fret! Gee, what kind of neck and frets will you use on this guitar that will be played with thick gloves? What sort of pick? Monitoring? I really think that this discussion is ceasing to be related to space and space shuttles, and could perhaps migrate to net.physics (or some other newsgroup I don't read). Enjoy! -- TEDDY BEARS HAVE TEETH, YOU KNOW! "When I first landed here, I didn't like the beer, but the attitude seemed good enough, and the way ahead seemed clear. The beer still tastes like glue, the road seem rougher too, and the ..." (allegra,harpo,ulysses)!alice!jj ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 85 17:29:54 pst Message-Id: <8502170129.AA17064@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ssc-vax!adolph (Mark Adolph) Subject: Re: Orphaned Response (Guitars in sapace) *** YOUR MESSAGE *** > A recording could be made of an electric guitar in space, and played on > earth to see what had been created in space. (The speakers would then > have air to transmit the sound). Has anyone considered the issue of producing a guitar solo while wearing space suit gloves? Perhaps we should switch to something easier to play in a space suit, such as an electric trombone. :-) -- Mark A. ...uw-beaver!ssc-vax!adolph "We'll cross out that bridge when we come back to it later." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 85 17:37:00 pst Message-Id: <8502170137.AA17153@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: pbear!peterb Subject: Re: Re: Re: Shuttle Project? >> but if the string is played in vacuum, then the friction of the air >> is removed, and the sutain is much longer. >> Peter Barada >> ima!pbear!peterb > >I believe this should read, "If the string is played in vacuum, then the >medium for the sound waves is removed and the sustain is zero, as it never >gets to pickup." > >-Chuck > >-- >{ihnp4,fortune}!dual\ > {qantel,idi}-> !intelca!cem > {ucbvax,hao}!hplabs/ The original premise was that if an ELECTRIC guitar (or other stringed instrument) is played in a vacuum then the dampening effect caused by air molocules is removed thereby increasing the sustain level. This applies for other instruments as well (such as: tubular bells, pianos, violins, cellos, xylophones, etc.... Peter Barada ima!pbear!peterb ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 85 23:30:15 EST From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Guitar in Space To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A As a guitarist of some few years experience, I'd be more than happy to volunteer for the experiment. However, let me point out a few problems that will have to be solved. Fingering will require an extremely flexible suit with very thin and strong material at the finger tips. Us guitarists can stick pins into our finger tips because of the thick callus that we build up over many years of sliding our fingers at HIGH speed over wires that are thinner than that on a cheese slicer. This could be quite hard on space gloves, as they don't grow thicker with use. Thinness is necessary because the string of an electric guitar are set quite close together. Beginners have trouble depressing a single string with a single finger, even WITHOUT gloves. The requirement for flexibility goes far beyond what is done now. Proper technique requires moving the left arm to the proper position, and placing fingertips squarely down upon 6 individual strings, commonly with a bar across two or more strings where a single finger is flexed OPPOSITE the normal flexure direction. The arm motion is used because the arm is stronger and can cause more rapid movement on the neck of the guitar. Similarly with the right arm for strumming, although when picking individual notes a great deal of the motion may come from the wrist, with the little finger resting on the pickguard (if you are a rock flat picker). If you are a finger picker, then you have the same basic problems as with the left hand, unless you use metal or plastic finger picks over the gauntleted fingers. The upshot is that you have to be able to move arms, elbows, wrists and every finger joint VERY rapidly. It may not be entirely necessary, but I find the feedback of the FEEL of the string is important for proper vibrato, slides, bends, attack/release, harmonics, etc. This would tend to call for a very thin material. Harmonics in particular, because you have to touch the string just right, just long enought and without much depression to get the harmonic ring. Although I hadn't thought of it for years, I get the harmonic right every time because I remember what the string FEELS like when I've touched it just right. And of course the music must be fed back into your helmet so you can get the emotional feel of what you are doing. I suspect an electric piano might be easier at the moment, at least until we have a really TOUGH skin tight suit. There may be some adaptation difficulties for the guitarist in zero G. Motions are not easily changed because you do not play notes from the higher brain functions. You feel a 'musical direction' and let reflex take you the rest of the way. If you have ever listened closely to John McGloughlin, you will understand the impossibility of this being concious on a note by note basis. The lack of gravity might have effects that make the reflex work not quite as intended. I can certainly imagine one problem being the ability to move the guitar around and yet not have the impacts and motions cause it to go spinning off, or in general act like a greased pig. It could well take a few months of practice to add the necessary reflex-programs to your lower brainstem to get performance quality music out of your fingertips. As I said before, I'd be most happy to study the phenomena. This part could be done even before a proper space suit was ready, with an ordinary guitar. I suppose we could ask the Russians about this, as they were the first to play guitar in space. (I wonder if congress will buy a music gap?) A former well merged and slightly crazed rocker, Dale Amon ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 18-Feb-85 0404 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #91 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 91 Today's Topics: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #90 Re: Re: Shuttle Project? DOD anti-capitalist? Telescopes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Feb 1985 1126 PST From: Ron Tencati Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #90 To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC Reply-To: TENCATI@JPL-VLSI.ARPA I vote for making a separate SPACE mailing list for those who want to discuss ad infinitum about whether electric amplifiers will work in a vacuum. How about INFO-SPACE-JUNK for them, and INFO-NASA for the rest of us that wish to keep the list professional. Ron Tencati JPL-VLSI ------ ------------------------------ id AA19151; Sun, 17 Feb 85 13:27:24 pst Date: Sun, 17 Feb 85 13:27:24 pst Message-Id: <8502172127.AA19151@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: mlm@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Michael Mauldin) Subject: Re: Re: Shuttle Project? Enough about guitar strings in space!!! 1. Yes, you can play an electric guitar in space. 2. Sure, it might be interesting to hear the difference of the sustains in a vacuum, but 3. IT CAN BE DONE ON THE GROUND IN A VACUUM CHAMBER!!! To REALLY interest NASA in a shuttle project, you have to pick something that can be done cheaper in space than on the ground. Weightlessness should have little or no effect on a guitar string. Michael L. Mauldin (Fuzzy) Department of Computer Science Mauldin@CMU-CS-CAD.ARPA Carnegie-Mellon University (412) 578-3065 Pittsburgh, PA 15213 ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 85 17:20:01 EST From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: DOD anti-capitalist? To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A Thoughts on "Classification Dispute Stalls NOAA Program", Science 2/8/85, pg 612-613 Now that the US has claimed a 200 mile economic zone, it would seem to make perfect sense to send in the surveyors and map an acquisition of land unheralded since the purchase of Alaska. Once the cartographers have cleared the way, we send out the new 49'ers and begin tapping the enourmous wealth of the nearly untapped continental slope, just as one day we will map the lunar surface in fine detail for the prospectors. And NOAA, taking it's charter to heart was prepared to map the new territory using the Sea Beam and the satellites of the Global Positioning System to gain highly detailed mapping information. However, the DOD in its infinite wisdom, wants to classify any mapping that NOAA does. Since classification will effectively halt the major economic use of this zone, it makes one wonder of DOD has forgotten what economic system they are supposed to be defending. DOD gave their half baked and rather lame excuse (Soviet submarines could figure out where to hide). This strikes me as being nearly as ludicrous as the explanations given for the shuttle launch time security. I suspect the real reason may be one of the following: - we have underwater caches of fuel, weapons, supplies, atomics, for wartime resupply of submarines, and possibly through the submarines of surface vessals. - we have carried the Sealab technology furthur and have underwater listening posts or bases that are manned. - we have unmanned underwater listening posts or other elint or C-cubed facilities that might show up in detailed mapping - we have built an undersea neutrino detector large enough to give militarily useful resolution so that can follow nuclear powered vessels anywhere on earth. I'm not sure about warheads, but I do know that operating reactors give off a nuetrino flux, albeit a not terribly powerful one. There was even discussion of building a large detector in the waters off of Hawaii. Detectors are based on recording scintillations in the dark waters using sensitive photo detectors. If anyone wonders why I have brought this up in Space Digest, it has to do with the fear that these morons may try to pull the same type of shenaninigans on us when we attempt to exploit the resources of the solar system. As those who have followed my ravings before know, I am NOT anti defense, or even anti-SDI. However I have a strong desire to make sure the military of our country is kept under control and gets slapped down every once in awhile with the reminder that this is a DEMOCRACY, with a CONSTITUTION, and it runs under a CAPITALIST economic system, and that the people who make up the nation are independent, undisciplined and (god forbid) UNMILITARY individualists. And for those who do not believe this will happen in space, I remind you that the DOD has used similar unconvincing arguments to prevent the creation of 10m resolution orbital remote sensing, is internally and privately undercutting the concept of shuttle commercialization, and was most unhelpful in getting a multinational space station built, yet was unwilling to assist the lobbying to create an all-american SCIENTIFIC and COMMERCIAL space station. By the way, I might add that to my (admittedly peripheral) knowledge it is not the people in the SDI office who are causing the trouble!! The whole point is, I think any of you out there who are in a position to do so should raise one holy hell of a stink about this travesty. I remind you of a few mottos of our ancestors: "Live Free or Die" (New Hampshire state motto), "Don't Tread on Me" (California state motto). Help keep our War Department American!! ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 85 17:52:25 EST From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Telescopes To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A Why hasn't anybody considered building an all electronic telescope? Why even bother with a mirror? A large flat plate of CCD must certainly be cheaper than the expensive optics and aligning techniques now being used. I cannot think of a good reason why it wouldn't work, and I'm curious if anyone out there can see a problem. For those to whom the idea is not immediately obvious, the main mirror would be replaced with a flat plate of photomultipliers impinging on CCD. About 3-4 years ago Scientific American ran an article on some of the new technology for making the zone plates better and cheaper. With this approach we can count photons and arrival times immediately. The scope would consist of nothing but a tube to prevent extraneous light from getting in, the 'objective' plate and a computer with humungously high speed and enormously large storage capabilities. The only thing I'm not sure of is how to get a good spectral resolution. What is really desired is a vector of length 4 identifying each impinging photon over a useful delta-f with Even with the above computing requirements, it MUST be cheaper than forming a few tons of glass to within a 1/4 wavelength of a complex 3-d figuring curve!!! If anyone decides to build one, please name it after me, or at least send me the check for the difference between the electronics and the optics... ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 19-Feb-85 0411 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #92 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 92 Today's Topics: Crew Wins Silver Medal Rollout to VAB Re: Columbia Launch Date Set For 3 March USENET, SPACE, gatewaying, and vacuum guitar playing Re: Telescopes Space Station Book Electronic scope Re:TENCATI at JPL-VLSI re:SPACE DIGEST V591 Re: Telescopes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- id AA20746; Mon, 18 Feb 85 07:40:41 pst Date: Mon, 18 Feb 85 07:40:41 pst Message-Id: <8502181540.AA20746@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: brunix!alb (Adam Buchsbaum) Subject: Crew Wins Silver Medal The crew of the space shuttle Discovery that last year rescued the Palapa B-2 and Wester-6 satellites arrived in London yesterday at the invitation of Lloyd's of London, which insured the satellites. All members of the crew will receive Lloyd's silver medal for outstanding service. ------------------------------ id AA20755; Mon, 18 Feb 85 07:41:11 pst Date: Mon, 18 Feb 85 07:41:11 pst Message-Id: <8502181541.AA20755@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: brunix!alb (Adam Buchsbaum) Subject: Rollout to VAB The Challenger, with launch now set for 3 March, is scheduled to be moved from the OFP to the VAB at 0001 EST Sunday, 10 February. ------------------------------ id AA20763; Mon, 18 Feb 85 07:41:34 pst Date: Mon, 18 Feb 85 07:41:34 pst Message-Id: <8502181541.AA20763@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: brunix!alb (Adam Buchsbaum) Subject: Re: Columbia The Columbia is not just being refurbished. It is being converted, from a test vehicle to an operational orbiter. It's quite extensive work. The ejection seats in the cockpit are being taken out and the cockpit expanded to fit more people, tiles are being replaced by blankets, the cargo bay is being expanded, and the engines are being replaced with newer models, to name just a few things. There are many more. I do not know when it is scheduled to fly again. ------------------------------ id AA20775; Mon, 18 Feb 85 07:42:21 pst Date: Mon, 18 Feb 85 07:42:21 pst Message-Id: <8502181542.AA20775@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: brunix!alb (Adam Buchsbaum) Subject: Launch Date Set For 3 March NASA yesterday announced that the Challenger's new launch date is 3 March, 11 days later than the original 20 February date. Launch time is scheduled as 0831 EST, and the shuttle is due to land at 0932 EST on 7 March. The delay will still have no effect on the next launch of Discovery, which is set for 19 March. ------------------------------ id AA21720; Mon, 18 Feb 85 09:50:52 pst Date: Mon, 18 Feb 85 09:50:52 pst From: John Bruner Message-Id: <8502181750.AA21720@mordor.ARPA> To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: USENET, SPACE, gatewaying, and vacuum guitar playing Since I just recently set up the gateway between USENET and the SPACE mailing list (after seeing some requests that the gateway be re-established), perhaps I should comment upon the matter. (Then again, perhaps I shouldn't, but I will anyway.) I believe that most USENET readers are unaware of how ARPANET mailing lists work, and that conversely many ARPANET people are not familiar with USENET. USENET acts as an electronic bulletin board. Readers may "subscribe" to a variety of "newsgroups" which are then presented to them when they run a "readnews" program. (There are variations on the theme, one of which is the "notesfiles" system, but the basic idea is the same.) There is one copy of each article per system. The vast majority of USENET newsgroups are not moderated. A USENET reader places an article into the USENET news stream by "posting" it to one or more newsgroups. An ARPANET mailing list is exactly what its name implies: a list of people to whom ARPANET mail is sent periodically. The list is maintained by one person (the list's moderator). Readers subscribe to the list by sending mail to the list moderator, requesting to be added to the mailing list. (This mail is sometimes misdirected, hence the occasional "please add me/delete me to/from the list" messages that show up.) Most mailing lists are distributed in the form of a digest, which contains several messages that have arrived at a specified mailing address (e.g. SPACE@MIT-MC) in the few days preceeding the new digest mailing. In the case of the SPACE digest, S1-C (MORDOR) converts incoming USENET articles in the newsgroups "net.space" and "net.columbia" and mails them to the digest. Mail to SPACE@MIT-MC is sent to MORDOR and is posted to the USENET newsgroup "net.space". It is my understanding that this was the arrangement with the previous gateway (SRI-UNIX, I think). Note that USENET receives the individual letters, not the digest. (It is be trivial to gateway the digest too; in fact, I read the SPACE digest via a local newsgroup that is gatewayed in exactly this fashion.) The nature of the "net.space" and "net.columbia" newsgroups is different. Since letters mailed to SPACE show up only on "net.space", perhaps readers of the SPACE digest would prefer to see only articles posted to "net.space" on USENET. I believe that the recent series on the sustain of electric guitars in a vacuum came from "net.columbia". I can make this change easily. -- John Bruner (S-1 Project, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory) MILNET: jdb@mordor.ARPA [jdb@s1-c] (415) 422-0758 UUCP: ...!ucbvax!dual!mordor!jdb ...!decvax!decwrl!mordor!jdb ------------------------------ id AA21846; Mon, 18 Feb 85 10:02:36 pst Date: Mon, 18 Feb 85 10:02:36 pst Message-Id: <8502181802.AA21846@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: utastro!ethan (Ethan Vishniac) Subject: Re: Telescopes > From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS > > Why hasn't anybody considered building an all electronic telescope? Why > even bother with a mirror? A large flat plate of CCD must certainly be > cheaper than the expensive optics and aligning techniques now being used. > > For those to whom the idea is not immediately obvious, the main mirror would > be replaced with a flat plate of photomultipliers impinging on CCD. About > 3-4 years ago Scientific American ran an article on some of the new > technology for making the zone plates better and cheaper. > > With this approach we can count photons and arrival times immediately. The > scope would consist of nothing but a tube to prevent extraneous light from > getting in, the 'objective' plate and a computer with humungously high speed > and enormously large storage capabilities. > > The only thing I'm not sure of is how to get a good spectral resolution. > What is really desired is a vector of length 4 identifying each impinging > photon over a useful delta-f with > > Even with the above computing requirements, it MUST be cheaper than forming > a few tons of glass to within a 1/4 wavelength of a complex 3-d figuring > curve!!! > *** REPLACE THIS TELESCOPE WITH YOUR CCD *** Hmm........ As a theorist I'm probably not the person to answer this, but here goes... The problem is not obtaining reasonably spectral resolution, that can be done with filters if necessary. The problem is that the scheme as presented here has no means of distinguishing between photons coming from slightly different directions. It has no *angular* resolution. This is the whole point of the optics, to create an image, to separate out photons according to their wavevectors. A CCD will simply record whether or not a photon has struck its surface. In order to make a telescope like this work one would have to restrict its field of view to the angular resolution desired, i.e. less than an arc second. Note that I haven't mentioned (yet) the difficulty involved in covering an area comparable to a large telescope mirror with a coherent CCD array. "Don't argue with a fool. Ethan Vishniac Borrow his money." {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan Department of Astronomy University of Texas Austin, Texas 78712 *Anyone who wants to claim these opinions is welcome to them* ------------------------------ Date: 18 Feb 85 19:33:44 EST From: Hank.Walker@CMU-CS-UNH Subject: Space Station Book To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A IEEE Press has just published "The Space Station: An Idea Whose Time Has Come" edited by Theodore Simpson. The book consists of 20 chapters by separate authors including James Beggs of NASA, Jacques Collet of ESA, John Hodge, deputy administrator for the space station, and Harrison Schmitt. Charles Sheffield has called the book "a mine of information," but my impression is that the book is written on a mostly non-technical level, or perhaps the level of IEEE Spectrum. It is stated in the book review (from IEEE Institute) that no equations appear in the book. Part of the book concerns the history of the space program, speculations on future missions, and a look at the political process. The book is available from IEEE Service Center, 445 Hoes Lane, Piscataway, NJ 08854. Price is $17.95 for IEEE members, $19.95 for nonmembers. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Feb 85 20:16:15 EST From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Electronic scope To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A A number of people have pointed out the flaw in the idea I presented previously. And that is that each point on the target object emits a spherical wave front. The telescope captures a small solid angle's worth of the wavefront from that point and focuses it to a single point on the objective. Likewise for every point in the field of view. Thus there is an n:1 mapping. A collimated imager misses this. As others have pointed out to me, the phase information must be retained to electronically sythesize the image that the primary would generate. I suspect it will be possible eventually, but this problem explains why it has not been seriously considered at this time. Oh well, back to designing costumes for the first outdoor rock performance at Tranquility Base National Park... (Or maybe at the Frau Mauro Golf Course, or Tycho Colliseum) ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 18 Feb 1985 21:42-EST From: nsc@Mitre-Bedford To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC Cc: nsc@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Re:TENCATI at JPL-VLSI re:SPACE DIGEST V591 Amen to nix to guitars in space and, by the way, to cremaspaceatoriums. Guitars in space sounds like a high school science fair project. If the idea is to provide a forum for discussing space technology issues, this is not one of them. It's a nit that's been fairly well picked by now. Discussions of ashes in space will be as shortly remembered as discussions of the dynamics of hula hoops. Concur with the idea of "INFO-SPACE-JUNK" (sorta reminds you of the defunct TV series QUARK, doesn't it?), but Ron's alternative is "INFO-NASA". That would be a fairly interesting and highly patronized bboard, I'm sure. But INFO-NASA is not exactly the same as INFO-SPACE. Nor is INFO-DOD-SPACE the same, but you can't talk about space in a vacuum (sorry). It's NASA and it's DOD and it's commercial space too. That's what I think (and thought before I signed on) SPACE-ENTHUSIASTS should be. Bull (Navy Space Planner) (Views probably not exactly those of the management, but pretty close I'd reckon.) ------------------------------ id AA24299; Mon, 18 Feb 85 19:33:27 pst From: dual!ihnp4!iheds!hon Message-Id: <8502190220.AA05650@dual.UUCP> Date: 18 Feb 85 13:00:04 CST (Mon) To: mordor!space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Re: Telescopes I don't believe you would get any magnification with your single flat plat. When you record the photons with the CCD you lose the phase information. The mirror preserves the phase and allows the magnified image from correlated photons to be cast at the focus where it can then be causght by a CC. Herb Norton Bell Labs ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 20-Feb-85 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #93 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 93 Today's Topics: Re: Re: Orphaned Response comments Re: Orphaned Response ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Feb 85 09:58:16 pst Message-Id: <8502191758.AA26381@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: pbear!peterb Subject: Re: Re: Orphaned Response An electric guitar pickup does produce an output that is porportional to the distance of the string to the pickup, but that is only in a perpendicular plane to the pole of the magnet. Actually the output is the voltage produced by differential flux which in turn is produced by moving a wire through a variable magnetic field. at the end of each swing the flux is highest, and in the middle of each swing the flux is at its lowest. (relative to the free flux in the wire when motionless.) Peter Barada ima!pbear!peterb ------------------------------ Date: 19 Feb 85 23:20:28 EST From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: comments To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A I suspect there are very few topics that could be discussed here that someone would not consider trivial and unimportant. But sometimes the trivial can be a marvelous tool for the imagination. As we move into space to LIVE, then burial in space, guitars in space and all the other minutia that make up our daily lives and our social milieau will go with us. The change of environment will change social institutions, will require modification and sometimes reinvention of the minor and the major. As one who interested in space not as a research project but as a potential future home, I find ALL of it to be very important. I wonder at the new esthetics, the new art forms that will grow from the possibilities of tnew environments and the interaction of old forms with the new. Guitars in vacuum might be technically trivial, but who knows where art forms will go? Our imaginations start with the trivial, but who really knows where the ideas might lead? Life is really pretty drab without art, sculpture, dance, music and theater. They are all a very important part of what we are, and if we were to leave them behind us, it would make us something less than human. ------------------------------ id AA28770; Tue, 19 Feb 85 23:36:58 pst Date: Tue, 19 Feb 85 23:36:58 pst Message-Id: <8502200736.AA28770@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ron@brl-tgr.ARPA (Ron Natalie ) Subject: Re: Orphaned Response > > No, electric guitars do not need air. The pick-up is not a microphone, > but rather a magnetic transducer. The pole piece in the transducer > senses the proximity of the string to the pole piece, producing a signal > at the output of the transducer based on the distance of the string from > the magnetic pole piece. This way no foreign noise is picked up (background) > such as sneeze, cough, etc. > > A recording could be made of an electric guitar in space, and played on > earth to see what had been created in space. (The speakers would then > have air to transmit the sound). My Rhodes works the same way. We could use bone-conduction receivers to avoid having to have air coupling. -Ron ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* 20-Feb-85 1440 OTA Usenet to Space Digest connection To: "@SPACE.DIS[SPA,OTA]"@S1-A.ARPA All of you have contributed comments on this issue. The voting seems to have tailed off and is running about 3:1 against the usenet connection with less than 10 votes cast. Since I estimate the Arpanet readership of the digest at around 1000 I assume most people don't care. What I would like to suggest is that a volunteer be found who reads the Usenet stuff (anyway) and would be willing to manually forward stuff of interest to the digest. This would have almost all the advantages of the current system and few additional disadvantages. How do people feel about this? Does anyone want to volunteer? -Ted Anderson 21-Feb-85 0513 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #94 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 94 Today's Topics: Administrivial Oops! Re: DOD anti-capitalist? RE:space burial RE: Space burial Re: SPACE Digest V5 #90 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Feb 85 17:03:54 pst To: All From: Ted Anderson Subject: Administrivial Oops! Well in case you hadn't figured it out by now: I carefully went through and culled all the From: fields out the votes I received, made up a mailing list and then sent the message about usenet to absolulu everybody! My apologies to everyone. The message should still make sense, though of course the first sentence ("All of you have contributed...") only applies to about 1% of you. And while I have you're ear let me also mention that I've made a few changes to the digesting macros. It should now flush the and looking pretty funny. Also the last line of the Digest now repeats the volume and issue numbers for those who find that convenient. The Moderator ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 85 07:46:14 pst Message-Id: <8502201546.AA00111@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: amdahl!ems (E. Michael Smith) Subject: Re: DOD anti-capitalist? > From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS > > Thoughts on "Classification Dispute Stalls NOAA Program", Science 2/8/85, > pg 612-613 > > However, the DOD in its infinite wisdom, wants to classify any mapping that > NOAA does. Since classification will effectively halt the major economic > use of this zone, it makes one wonder of DOD has forgotten what economic > system they are supposed to be defending. > They have never played Hamurabi or Empire and don't yet understand that the way to win the game is to economically out produce your competition. > DOD gave their half baked and rather lame excuse (Soviet submarines could > figure out where to hide). This strikes me as being nearly as ludicrous as > the explanations given for the shuttle launch time security. I suspect the > real reason may be one of the following: > --- long list of far fetched rather lame reasons ommitted --- It is unlikely that there is any good reason. The dod has a long history of 'when in doubt classify new knowledge'. They seem to be as afraid of knowledge as the Russians. They just haven't learned yet that we will gain more advantage by the free exploitation of knowledge to our economic advantage than we will loose by having it known to the USSR. Remember that 'crypt' is not distributed outside the USA because of the bureacratic problem of licencing; not due to some sinister dod plot. Not to prevent anyone from having it. > ... However I have a strong desire to make sure the > military of our country is kept under control and gets slapped down every > once in awhile with the reminder that this is a DEMOCRACY, with a > CONSTITUTION, and it runs under a CAPITALIST economic system, and that the > people who make up the nation are independent, undisciplined and (god > forbid) UNMILITARY individualists. We have a Representative Democracy, not a Direct Domocracy; the DOD is doing what our representatives have told it to do... The constitution has been interpreted till it doesn't mean much any more... And our economy is not a true Capitalist system, but is rather what is called a Mixed Economy; with features of both capitalism and Socialism freely intermingled. Most of the people in the US do not fit the catagory 'individualist'. I wish that this were not so. Yes, the DOD will classify and stiffle the civilian space effort. This will be largely the result of bureaucratic bumbling and the tendency to try to hide *EVERYTHING* from the Russians. I doubt if we can change that. I hope there is enough leakage in the system to get the job of commercialization of space done. E. Michael Smith ...!{hplabs,ihnp4,amd,nsc}!amdahl!ems Comedo ergo sum The opinions expressed by me are not representative of those of any other person - natural, unnatural, or fictional - and only marginally reflect my opinions as strained by the language. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 85 17:48:07 pst Message-Id: <8502210148.AA04098@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ihuxe!rainbow (Rob Buchner) Subject: RE:space burial >Yes, you can be buried in space! Just have someone send your cremated remains >("cremains," as they were called in the news story on NPR this morning)to SSI >(not to be confused with the Princeton-based Space Studies Institute, also >called SSI), and they will further reduce them to fit into a capsule >approximately 1" by 1-1/4" which will be inscribed with your name, social >security number, and (optional) religious symbol of your choice. Then a >capsule containing several thousand of these will be placed into low earth >orbit (through the Van Allen Belt, which has very little satellite traffic). >>Compact little shapes? (like what the Kelvans did to the crew of the >>Enterprise) Low Earth orbit? What a drag. I think I'll wait until >>they can give my carcass enough energy to leave the solar system. I am happy to inform you that your worries are over. SSI plans to follow-up their first launching immediately with another. This one out of the Solar System. Can they expect you as a customer? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 85 17:57:43 pst Message-Id: <8502210157.AA04193@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: drutx!pagiven (GivenP) Subject: RE: Space burial - Has SSI considered the possibility that they could be starting our first inter-stellar war? I, for one, would consider it a very hos- tile act if someone were to fire little ash-filled titanium cap- sules at me. Such bullets propelled by light-sails, as at least one netter proposed, could reach their victims at .999c given enough time. Even if launched only with enough velocity to escape the solar system, those little bullets would pack quite a wallop when impacting a target at some great differential speed. An angry, intelligent civilization so threatened could easily calcu- late the trajectories and figure out where they came from. ZAP! we're history! ----------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Given {ihnp4, houxe, stcvax!ihnp4}!drutx!pagiven AT&T Information Systems Laboratories 11900 N. Pecos, Rm 1B04, Denver 80234 (303)-538-4058 ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 85 18:26:46 pst Message-Id: <8502210226.AA04511@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ames!eugene (Eugene Miya) Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #90 > From: Ron Tencati > > I vote for making a separate SPACE mailing list for those who want to > discuss ad infinitum about whether electric amplifiers will work in a > vacuum. How about INFO-SPACE-JUNK for them, and INFO-NASA for the rest > of us that wish to keep the list professional. > > Ron Tencati > JPL-VLSI > ------ [pilot light on] i had to comment on this on. [also, thank you to all who have sent letters, i am touched]. i vote against. i realize the description about the usenet/arpanet gatewaying has been described [i prefer the usenet interface even though i have arpa access. i think ele* amp*s requires a bit of tolerance on our part. i don't want to see an info-nasa because nasa does not represent to only view on the use of space. i am sorry if you cannot ignore mail [i use to have an account on the vax known as jpl-vlsi, so i know what you are doing to read the group]. because some of us represent the 'official' agency, there is a tendency for some to see "special dispensation" by default [unspoken]. i think the mear fact that i or other nasa people on this net biases some people from posting. that is one reason why i only wish to sit back for a while, since i have noticed changes on this net since i started flaming. hand is getting tired, so HAVE TOLERANCE. the volume on this news group is small, so this is possible. i learned the ropes by getting burned, and people informed so. nasa has few sits on either the arpanet [we're not part of the dod, so we don't get special dis*] or the uucpnet. i know one nasa official [not ted flinn] who used to read the net "until it was too filled with trash." thats okay, we are thinking about our own local newgroups for discussing work related issues like what goes on the space station, but this would bore most people. that's choice [to a degree, mind you]. --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,vortex}!ames!aurora!eugene emiya@ames-vmsb.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #94 ******************* 23-Feb-85 0353 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #95 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 95 Today's Topics: Light Sails Re:Space Digest RE: Space burial Re: Light Sails Information requested Re: Guitar in Space RE: spce burial out of this solar system Re: Re: Shuttle Project? Re: Light Sails Re: Light Sails Re: Tales from the Orbital Crypt Re:TENCATI at JPL-VLSI re:SPACE DIGEST V591 American Space Foundation (ASF) Re: Guitar in Space Re: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #90 Re: Guitar in Space Re: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #90 construction techniques Re: Space Station Book UFOs Re: DOD anti-capitalist? Re: Guitar in Space Re: UFOs Bellyache Re: Telescopes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Feb 85 11:16:47 EST From: John Heimann Subject: Light Sails To: space@mit-mc.arpa I sat down and tried to sketch out just how fast a solar sail could reasonably be expected to go, assuming a point source of illumination (the sun), the usual inverse square law for drop-off of photon intensity, a bit of handwaving about the mean photon momentum, and some reasonable figures for the density of the sail material. I realized then that I wasn't really sure how the thing was to operate after all. Are solar sails designed to get their momentum from elastic collisions with solar photons (reflecting sunlight), or do they get most of it from collisions with other particles that are constantly emitted from the sum (e.g. neutrons)? A typical neutron from a nuclear reaction packs a lot more momentum than a photon from the same reaction, so this is an important issue. Also, what's a good assumption as to the composition of the sail? Would a large expanse of metallized mylar be reasonable, or would this rip to shreds under meteor impact? Not having read anything about the subject in years, I really am not up on the latest ideas - although the old ideas were certainly interesting. Any technical info. would be appreciated. John ("Lux et Veritas") ------------------------------ Date: 21 Feb 1985 1101 PST From: Ron Tencati Subject: Re:Space Digest To: space-enthusiasts@mit-mc Reply-To: TENCATI@JPL-VLSI.ARPA I apologize for the way I worded my last message to the list. I was not suggesting that the list become a NASA bulletin board. I like the diversity on the list. What I was trying to do, was to make a plea that the list not be cluttered with trivial pursuits about what kind of amplifier would produce the best effect in space (that was a pun, but you get the idea), that's all. I like the list, and I like the topics discussed over the list, don't you think some things drag on a little too long? Maybe it's just me. I'll be more tolerant, sorry. As long as you've read this far, I would like to ask another question: Is it really necessary when replying to a digest article, that the entire article or letter is re-sent to the list prefaced by a bunch of ">" brackets? I don't know about the rest of you, but I keep those issues of the digest that I find interesting on-line. In my case, a simple reference to the past article and the person's reply would be enough for me. I guess the reason this bothers is that on this and other lists, more than one person will use this technique when replying to an article, and it gets redundant and lengthy. Especially when you are on a 1200 baud dial up and you have to go through re-reading an old message before you get to the "good stuff". This is just a personal opinion. Now, would you like to see this stuff discussed over the list for the next two weeks? I don't think that this message, or any flames, should be forced on the readers, and imbedded in the digest either. Oh well, I'll get back to work and not worry about it anymore. Ron Tencati JPL-VLSI.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 85 11:48:01 pst From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) Message-Id: <8502211948.AA17501@ucbkim.ARPA> To: iihnp4!drutx!pagiven@Berkeley, space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: RE: Space burial Has SSI considered the possibility that they could be starting our first inter-stellar war? I, for one, would consider it a very hos- tile act if someone were to fire little ash-filled titanium cap- sules at me. Such bullets propelled by light-sails, as at least one netter proposed, could reach their victims at .999c given enough time. Even if launched only with enough velocity to escape the solar system, those little bullets would pack quite a wallop when impacting a target at some great differential speed. An angry, intelligent civilization so threatened could easily calcu- late the trajectories and figure out where they came from. ZAP! we're history! (1) Probability of collision with *anything* is vanishingly small. (2) .999c is an absurd value for the terminal velocity of a lightsail launched without aid of a coherent light source (3) For heaven's sake, please submit this stuff to info-space-junk. Rick. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 85 12:19:20 pst From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) Message-Id: <8502212019.AA17985@ucbkim.ARPA> To: jheimann@BBNCCY.ARPA, space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Re: Light Sails I'm pretty sure that a heavy particle would go right through the sail, with little net momentum transfer -- unless, that is, you made your sail of lead or gold (better -- highly reflective). Rick. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 85 15:15:14 pst Message-Id: <8502212315.AA07773@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: haddock!jimc Subject: Information requested Someone please write about Jake Garn and his future in space. I guess I missed all the news coverage. Message me if you want. Jim Campbell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 85 15:42:09 pst Message-Id: <8502212342.AA08089@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ee!cj Subject: Re: Guitar in Space I suppose we could overcome the problem of strings being too close together by using a bass guitar. The problem of strings as thin as cheese slicer wires is also avoided, but there is still a need for rather tough gloves, but still thin enough to get the feel (round wounds *EAT* beginners fingers). Mobility would also be a problem, unless you were one of those who plays C&W (GAD! 3 notes for HOURS), although since a lot of them use flat wound strings (dull and thumpy) so the need for extra tough gloves might be a little less :-). Anyway, I suppose that I could be persuaded to do the testing, if you twist my arm a little, I'd even play a little C&W (it's against my religion to play less than 5 notes for more than 5 minutes). Just another deranged rocker, $cj ...!{ihnp4,decvax,ucbvax,harpo,masscomp,(just about anywhere)}!pur-ee!cj P.S. I suppose we could try my synth...nah :-) ------------------------------ Date: 21 Feb 85 14:43:00 PST From: WOO IL LEE Subject: RE: spce burial out of this solar system To: space%mit-mc Reply-To: WOO IL LEE As far as I know, SSI (the commercial one) equipment has barely enough delta V to (maybe) reach some near-earth orbits. How are they going to reach solar escape velocity? Is somebody selling second-hand upper stages? Emilio P. Caalius Stanford Univ. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 85 15:48:25 pst Message-Id: <8502212348.AA08172@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: phoenix!brent (Brent P. Callahan) Subject: Re: Re: Shuttle Project? >Enough about guitar strings in space!!! > >1. Yes, you can play an electric guitar in space. >2. Sure, it might be interesting to hear the difference of the sustains > in a vacuum, but >3. IT CAN BE DONE ON THE GROUND IN A VACUUM CHAMBER!!! But what about the acoustics of the chamber ? Made in New Zealand --> Brent Callaghan AT&T Information Systems, Lincroft, NJ {ihnp4|ahuta|pegasus}!phoenix!brent (201) 576-3475 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 85 18:41:01 pst Message-Id: <8502220241.AA08956@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: utastro!ethan (Ethan Vishniac) Subject: Re: Light Sails > From: John Heimann > I sat down and tried to sketch out just how fast a solar sail could > reasonably be expected to go, assuming a point source of illumination (the > sun), the usual inverse square law for drop-off of photon intensity, a bit of > handwaving about the mean photon momentum, and some reasonable figures for the > density of the sail material. I realized then that I wasn't really sure how > the thing was to operate after all. Are solar sails designed to get their > momentum from elastic collisions with solar photons (reflecting sunlight), or > do they get most of it from collisions with other particles that are > constantly emitted from the sum (e.g. neutrons)? A typical neutron from a > nuclear reaction packs a lot more momentum than a photon from the same > reaction, so this is an important issue. *** REPLACE THIS ROCKET WITH YOUR SAIL *** However, a typical neutron from a nuclear reaction in the core of the sun will not emerge from the surface. Neither will the typical photon. Both are subject to scattering. The following numbers are taken from Allen's "Astrophysical Quantities" which is a standard astronomical reference book. The total energy flux from the sun is 6.27x10^10 ergs/cm^2/sec. If the sail reflects incident photons elastically then the pressure on the sail is 2F/c (solar radius/distance)^2, where c is the speed of light. Normalizing to Earth orbital radius this becomes about 9x10^-5 dynes/cm^2. Now suppose the sail also suffers inelastic collisions with particles in the solar wind. Allen gives the density of the solar wind as being about 5 protons per cubic centimeter near the Earth. The typical velocity is 450 km/sec. This gives us a wind pressure of (proton mass)x5x(Velocity of wind - velocity of sail)^2 normalized to the radius of the Earth's orbit. This gives us a pressure of about 1.7x10^-8 (1-velocity of sail/450km/sec)^2. However, Allen also mentions that the number density is inversely proportional to the velocity up to some (unspecified) limit. This suggests that the above estimate is an underestimate since the occasional high-momentum particles will be more important than the more common low-momentum ones. Nevertheless the above estimate makes it clear that photons are probably more helpful, if only by a little bit. A more important point is that if you just hold up your sail against the sun you'll have problems unless your Area/mass ratio is quite large. Below a critical limit you will simply reduce the sun's gravity by a constant fraction. The angular momentum you posess from the Earth's orbit will carry you out to some distance from the sun into a new, and larger orbit, and there you will stay. You need to tilt your sail to gain angular momentum as you go. I hope this helps. No comments on the mylar. That's beyond me. I'm sure people have written letters about this in Nature or some such place. "Don't argue with a fool. Ethan Vishniac Borrow his money." {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan Department of Astronomy University of Texas Austin, Texas 78712 *Anyone who wants to claim these opinions is welcome to them* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 85 19:51:37 pst Message-Id: <8502220351.AA09083@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: uwvax!derek (Derek Zahn) Subject: Re: Light Sails I is only an ameteur, so bear with me. I am under the impression that a Light Sail would get its propulsion from the solar wind, a stream of protons and neutrons that are expelled from the sun constantly (and cause the Aurora Borealis, I think). It seems to me that the "light pressure" from photons would be insufficient for any substantial thrust. What we need to know (from some more knowledgable source), is the velocity and density of the solar wind. If someone could post this and similar information, I would appreciate it, since I have been thinking about it lately. Anyway, from this, it should not be too hard to compute what velocity could be attained by a light sail if we make some assumptions about area/mass of the sail material. I think that when launching a light sail, we would want to launch it directly toward the sun. The reason for this is that closer to the sun the solar wind should be denser and we can get more thrust there -- in fact, I suspect that most of our acceleration will be gotten quite close to the sun. Any comments? derek -- Derek Zahn @ wisconsin ...!{allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,sfwin,ucbvax,uwm-evax}!uwvax!derek derek@wisc-rsch.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 85 23:32:02 pst Message-Id: <8502220732.AA09452@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ames!al (Al Globus) Subject: Re: Tales from the Orbital Crypt > From: Tom Wadlow > > I read in one of the local papers that the SSI plan for space burial > involved reducing the corpses to a very small size (roughly test-tube > sized containers of ashes, I think) for placement in the orbital crypt. > > I wonder how much of a light sail it would take to reach system escape > velocity for such a payload, given: > > - You don't care how long it takes. (After all, you're dead) > - All systems are likely to be entirely passive. Ideally, While in Earth orbit a light sail must do a lot of manuvering to keep accelating. This is obvious if you consider the geometric relationship of the Sun to anything in a planetary orbit as time passes. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 85 23:32:20 pst Message-Id: <8502220732.AA09459@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ames!al (Al Globus) Subject: Re:TENCATI at JPL-VLSI re:SPACE DIGEST V591 > From: nsc@Mitre-Bedford > > > Amen to nix to guitars in space and, by the way, to cremaspaceatoriums. > > Guitars in space sounds like a high school science fair project. If the > idea is to provide a forum for discussing space technology issues, this > is not one of them. It's a nit that's been fairly well picked by now. > > Discussions of ashes in space will be as shortly remembered as discussions of > the dynamics of hula hoops. > > Concur with the idea of "INFO-SPACE-JUNK" (sorta reminds you of the defunct > TV series QUARK, doesn't it?), but Ron's alternative is "INFO-NASA". That > would be a fairly interesting and highly patronized bboard, I'm sure. But > INFO-NASA is not exactly the same as INFO-SPACE. Nor is INFO-DOD-SPACE the > same, but you can't talk about space in a vacuum (sorry). It's NASA and it's > DOD and it's commercial space too. > > That's what I think (and thought before I signed on) SPACE-ENTHUSIASTS > should be. > > Bull (Navy Space Planner) (Views probably not exactly those of the management, > but pretty close I'd reckon.) I feel that the net in general is a good place for stuff on the fringe. If you spend much time on the fringe you're bound to go over the line from time to time. I, for one, didn't mind and even enjoyed the guitar thing even though it was entirely off base. At least it wasn't the same old s---. As for space burial, I think it's a idiotic concept - and that the net is a perfect place to discuss it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Feb 85 01:27:13 pst Message-Id: <8502220927.AA09815@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: sunybcs!lazarus (Daniel G. Winkowski) Subject: American Space Foundation (ASF) I don't know if this group has come to the attention of net.space as of yet, they seem to be doing some importent pro-space loobying in DC. Below is a copy of their statement of goals. ------ "Recognizing that the US space program is critical to the future of our nation and mankind, the ASF was formed to lobby in Washington for a stronger American presence in space. The ASF is the nation's largest grassroots prospace lobby. It is a national non-partisan organization financed entirely by our members. ... [plea for support]... We believe mandkind must expand its frontiers beyond the confines of Earth" ASF, 214 Massachusetts Ave., N.E., Suite 420, Washington, DC 20002 ------ Their Board of Directors looks impressive (so one would expect), as does their newsletter. Does anyone know anything more about this organization? Have the pro-space groups truely consolidated behind one lobbying front? -- Today we live in the future, Tomorrow we'll live for the moment, But, pray we never live in the past. -------------- Daniel G. Winkowski @ SUNY Buffalo Computer Science (716-636-2879) UUCP: ..![bbncca,decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath]!sunybcs!lazarus CSNET: lazarus%Buffalo@CSNET-RELAY ARPA: see CSNET ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Feb 85 04:07:53 pst Message-Id: <8502221207.AA10304@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: haddock!stevel Subject: Re: Guitar in Space How about using a steel guitar. No need for little finger tips. Oh course you would have to use the slide all the time, but I like a REAL guitar. Steve Ludlum, decvax!yale-co!ima!stevel, {amd|ihnp4!cbosgd}!ima!stevel Interactive Systems, 7th floor, 441 Stuart st, Boston, MA 02116; 617-247-1155 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Feb 85 04:08:11 pst Message-Id: <8502221208.AA10311@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: haddock!stevel Subject: Re: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #90 Professional??????????? Eugine(sp?) at ames is the only one who shows a truly professionsal outlook in these groups, net.columba and net.space. The rest of us are just kabitzers(sp? again) and late news service readers. I subscribe so I like it but lets face reality. Steve Ludlum, decvax!yale-co!ima!stevel, {amd|ihnp4!cbosgd}!ima!stevel Interactive Systems, 7th floor, 441 Stuart st, Boston, MA 02116; 617-247-1155 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Feb 85 04:08:40 pst Message-Id: <8502221208.AA10320@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: pbear!peterb Subject: Re: Guitar in Space Well I like the analysis, and I have to admit that when I originally posted a response suggesting the depth of sustain on an electric guitar, I had no idea that it would create so much traffic! I think that the electric piano would be far easier but would create problems of its own. As a player of keyboards, I would have to also conclude that the material of the suit has to have a lot of 'give' in the fingers arms of the suit. Also the stretch in the arms has to be appriciable to play both sub bass and extreme high end at the same time. gravity would make the action almost laughable (how many electic grands do you know have a spring rebound on the hammer and damper???) Here on earth gravity suffices, but in space there is none so the actions have to be rebuilt to correct this. You would have to bolt the piano down and also the player else in the middle of "funural for a friend" when the octave hits in the low end combined with the hammer chords in the high end will send piano and player in oppisite directions. The suit would have to have a lot of give in order for the player to have any speed in doing runs (aka ELP take a pebble, or Trilogy) A lot of this can be corrected with time and patience and until then ...the sound will be different... (Just imagine getting a band together and playing in the cargo bay (obviously have to record it and sell it in order to make up for the expense)... What songs would you play???) I'd volenteer to play keyboards, now all we need is a bass and drums Peter Barada ima!pbear!peterb PS Reality is an escape for those who can not handle drugs... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Feb 85 04:08:57 pst Message-Id: <8502221208.AA10327@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: pbear!peterb Subject: Re: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #90 Where does it say that the list of subscribers HAS to be professional in this regard??? Who knows, in our ravings we may discover an answer to a pressing problem dealing with human operations in vacuum/zero-g. I don't know about you, but I love to brainstorm a lot and usually it supplies some very interesting and workable results. Peter Barada ima!pbear!peterb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Feb 85 04:09:12 pst Message-Id: <8502221209.AA10334@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: pbear!peterb Subject: construction techniques This may have been discussed previously, but I would like to start up a discussion on construction in space, the problems, and inventions required. Any type of construction is going to require raw materials, and the moon has plenty of those. Sun furnaces can be "bootstrapped" (i.e. start with very small furnace and melt some rock to form a solid material for a large spherical mirror by spinning the magna on a plate. light polish the surface and apply a coat of aluminum to the surface.(efficiency of reflection is not a problem, since there is ample energy available) this larger mirror can be used to melt more rock or to run a sterling engine for work. Even larger mirrors can be built, none of them optically pure, but if they were, the focus would vaporize a lot of things that got in its way. From here, rock can be melted down and used to create pipes for drainage or other low pressure work, larger containers can be cast from the rock. anybody else have any ideas? Peter Barada ima!pbear!peterb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Feb 85 08:10:47 pst Message-Id: <8502221610.AA11042@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ssc-vax!eder (Dani Eder) Subject: Re: Space Station Book If you want all the gory, technical details on the Space Station, at least as of August 1984, get this book: Space Station Reference Configuration Description Document #JSC-19989 From: Systems Engineering and Integration Space Station Program Office NASA, Johnson Space Center Houston, TX 786pp, 35 references, lots of illustrations I'm presently working on space station accommodations for the Orbit Transfer Vehicle (i.e. I'm designing a spaceship garage and gas station), and I find this book invaluble. Dani Eder/Boeing/ssc-vax!eder ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Feb 85 08:19:55 pst Message-Id: <8502221619.AA11141@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: sun!sunny (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) Subject: UFOs Does anyone have more information than this about the Betty & Barney Hill UFO encounter, or about alien visitations? or the paranormal equivalents? TRADE Routes: Zeta I Reticuli Zeta II Reticuli Alpha Mensae * Sol 82 Eridani Tau Ceti Gliese 86 EXPEDITIONARY Routes: Gliese 59 Tau 1 Eridani Gliese 67 54 Piscium 107 Piscium PROBABLE INTELLIGENT LIFE: Kappa Fornacis Gliese 95 Gliese 86.1 The above is the list of identifiable solar systems frequented by various aliens according to a map drawn by Betty Hill under hypnosis in recalling her and her husband Barney's encounter with a UFO near the Canadian border. It includes stars which at the time of the encounter weren't on existing star catalogs, but which were added by the time of her hypnotic recall of the star chart she had seen inside the UFO in which she and her husband were examined. -- {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny ------------------------------ Return-Path: Date: Thu, 21 Feb 85 18:41:20 pst From: Message-Id: <8502220241.AA13689@HP-VENUS> To: mordor!space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Re: DOD anti-capitalist? References: <496@mordor.UUCP> BRAVO!!! ------------------------------ Return-Path: Date: Thu, 21 Feb 85 18:40:54 pst From: Message-Id: <8502220240.AA13669@HP-VENUS> To: mordor!space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Re: Guitar in Space References: <492@mordor.UUCP> As a fellow guitarist working in the space program, I feel that playing while EVA (space walk) is a little rediculous. Stay inside the shuttle (or space station or whatever) and pick your brains out --- should be fun. I wonder what acoustics are like in zero G. I've heard that they're a little different. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Feb 85 19:30:42 pst Message-Id: <8502230330.AA14533@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: gwyn@brl-tgr.ARPA (Doug Gwyn ) Subject: Re: UFOs I see "sol" is not listed under "PROBABLE INTELLIGENT LIFE". ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Feb 85 23:32:51 pst Message-Id: <8502230732.AA14934@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: utzoo!kcarroll (Kieran A. Carroll) Subject: Bellyache * I'm sorry about the multiple posting, but people in all three of these newsgroups have taken to a particularly obnoxious practice, which I for one hope can be curtailed through the judicious application of peer pressure. What I'm objecting to is the posting of follow-up messages of the following form: (routing and message-id info.) > > (THE ENTIRE TEXT of a message that EVERYBODY subscribing > to the newsgroup has already read , usually only in the last day or > two, and of which NOBODY on the net has yet forgotten > any of the details. >> Sometimes there'll be two >>> (or more) >> levels of these inserts; as far as I can see, their >> only purposes are to (a) demonstrate the sender's >> cleverness at being able to insert one message into >> another one, (b) increase the throughput of the net, >> without actually increasing the information content >> of the messages being transmitted, and (c) MAKE ME WASTE >> HUGE AMOUNTS OF TIME READING THE SAME MESSAGE OVER AND >> OVER AGAIN, ON THE OFF-CHANCE THAT THE SENDER HAS SOMETHING >> USEFUL TO SAY (GRRRR!!!!)) > --------------------------------------------------------------------- (name, address, birthdate, astrological sign, favorite food of the sender, along with usually-not-very-entertaining closing messages, sometimes covering half a screenful of my terminal, and repeated EVERY SINGLE TIME the malefactor posts a message!) My suggestion is: make posting to the net concise, to the point and informative. If you don't have anyhing to say, don't say anything! If you're responding to a message that somebody else posted, do so via MAIL, and NOT via the newsgroup, unless you're pretty sure that your message is of general interest (after all, Publish or Perish doesn't yet apply to usenet postings!). If you disagree with all or part of the above, then please respond to me, via mail. If you agree with all or part of the above, then please respond to me, via mail. Whatever you do, DON'T insert this message into one of your own, along with a line or two of comments at the end! I've been wating for the last month or two for somebody else to come out and complain about these nasty practices; I'm sorry to have to be the one to do it (since I'm such a >nice< person, otherwise. As, they say on the arpanet, Flame Off! -Kieran A. Carroll ...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll ------------------------------ Return-Path: From: Message-Id: <8502230654.AA29101@HP-VENUS> Date: Friday, 22 Feb 85 08:05:28 PST To: mordor!space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Re: Telescopes Newsgroups: net.space Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR. I don't buy your electronic telescope scheme. A mirror "knows" more than just the position (x,y,z) of a light ray impinging on it, it knows the *direction* as well. Without direction information, how do you know where in the sky a ray came from? In other words, how does your scheme *focus* the light? --Carl ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #95 ******************* 24-Feb-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #96 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 96 Today's Topics: Celestial Bodies American Space Foundation other musical instruments Re: SPACE Digest V5 #90 RE: Space burial ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Feb 85 11:49:20 pst Message-Id: <8502231949.AA16573@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: utcs!shindman (Paul Shindman) Subject: Celestial Bodies [credit to Larry Davies of Thornhill Ont...] So now we're going to send cremated remains into space. I guess some lucky people will soon shuttle off their mortal coil and become the world's first ashtronauts. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 85 15:44:17 EST From: Hank.Walker@CMU-CS-UNH Subject: American Space Foundation To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A ASF is a space PAC independent of other such groups. I have been a member since it started in 1983. They lobby about the usual space things, #1 right now being the space station and 1986 NASA budget. The politicians associated with ASF are mostly conservative free-enterprisers like Harrison Schmidt. The big push prior to the space station was space deregulation and licensing simplification, which succeeded. They've taken member polls on the SDI, but not any really hard position. They send out a newsletter, requests for letter-writing campaigns, money, etc. This PAC is different in philosophy than the Gerry O'Neill guitars-in-space PACs. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 1985 18:57-EST From: Chris.Koenigsberg@CMU-CS-G.ARPA Subject: other musical instruments To: space-network-source@mit-mc Message-Id: <478051061/ckk@CMU-CS-G> I think you have hit upon a worthwile subject, the operation of musical instruments in zero-G. I'd like to know how the mechanics of drawing a bow across a violin/cello/bass string are affected. I know my bass bow is extremely heavy and unbalanced and most of my effort goes into holding the bow steady, which would be a given in zero-G. Would this allow previously unheard-of pyrotechnics on the cumbersome double bass? As for people who don't like this discussion, I suppose you enjoy discussing weapons of war in orbit more than instruments of music, huh? Chris Koenigsberg tektronix!hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!cmu-cs-pt!cmu-cs-g!ckk ckk@cmu-cs-g.arpa 1025 MurrayHill Ave. Pittsburgh, Pa. 15217 (412)362-6422 "The creative person looks upon everything in the world as a predator" -Pierre Boulez ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Feb 85 23:56:11 pst Message-Id: <8502240756.AA19322@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: dartvax!chuck (Chuck Simmons) Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #90 > we are thinking about our own local newgroups for discussing > work related issues like what goes on the space station, but this > would bore most people. > > --eugene miya I, for one, would love to listen in on NASA's technical discussions. Of course, I would hope that every now and then someone would explain things for me, but I would not feel slighted if I could only read without asking questions or posting comments. chuck.simmons%d1@dartvax ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Feb 85 23:56:27 pst Message-Id: <8502240756.AA19329@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: dartvax!chuck (Chuck Simmons) Subject: RE: Space burial > Has SSI considered the possibility that they could be starting our > first inter-stellar war? I, for one, would consider it a very hos- > tile act if someone were to fire little ash-filled titanium cap- > sules at me. Such bullets propelled by light-sails, as at least > one netter proposed, could reach their victims at .999c given > enough time. Even if launched only with enough velocity to escape > the solar system, those little bullets would pack quite a wallop > when impacting a target at some great differential speed. An > angry, intelligent civilization so threatened could easily calcu- > late the trajectories and figure out where they came from. > > ZAP! we're history! > > Paul Given {ihnp4, houxe, stcvax!ihnp4}!drutx!pagiven I assume this is humor? My physics isn't very good, but... It seems to me that if one of these "bullets" encountered an atmosphere, it would burn up creating a rather beautiful meteorite (?). Also, it seems that a civilization which had communities living outside the protection of an atmosphere would have devised some other form of protection against the occasional small but quickly moving object. Finally, it seems to me that civilizations would tend to be clustered around stars. Could a light-sail powered bullet get near another star at such a high speed? chuck%d1@dartvax ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #96 ******************* 25-Feb-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #97 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 97 Today's Topics: Re: DOD anti-capitalist? Re: Solar Sailing remains Re: Lunar mining SSTO! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 24 Feb 85 09:34:41 pst Message-Id: <8502241734.AA20319@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: terak!doug (Doug Pardee) Subject: Re: DOD anti-capitalist? > However, the DOD in its infinite wisdom, wants to classify any mapping that > NOAA does.... > DOD gave their half baked and rather lame excuse (Soviet submarines could > figure out where to hide). Another type of "classified data": the coverage of the U.S. Air Traffic Control RADAR. Although it would seem to make a lot of sense to let instrument pilots know, ahead of time, where they can expect to be out of RADAR contact, that information is classified. Now in the eastern U.S. there is essentially total RADAR coverage of all instrument flight routes. But not in the mountainous West. You ought'a see the look on the face of an out-of-state pilot flying V-105 from PRC to BLD when the air traffic controller routinely intones "Cessna Five Two Whiskey, RADAR contact lost, resume normal position reporting, request your estimate to Peach Springs." Many instrument pilots have *never* had to give a normal position report before. They don't have an estimate ready, they've forgotten what the chart symbols for "mandatory" and "on-request" reporting points are, and they've even forgotten the format of a "normal" position report. But at least the Ruskies don't know about the holes in the ATC RADAR coverage (oh, no! I just told them about one!) -- Doug Pardee -- Terak Corp. -- !{hao,ihnp4,decvax}!noao!terak!doug ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Feb 85 11:34:12 pst Message-Id: <8502241934.AA20458@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ISM780!chris Subject: Re: Solar Sailing remains I don't think this is a problem. Space is very big, and stars are very far apart. I doubt if the lightsail capsule would get going anywhere near the speed of light. (Any physicist who wants to calculate the speed of the capsule as it passes the orbit of Pluto, I would much appreciate it) It will take centuries to cross the distance between us and the nearest star. It would be truly unlikely if it ended up pointed towards anything near us. I doubt if anybody anywhere and anywhen will ever notice out poor little capsule. Such a capsule could pass through the solar system and we would never notice it, unless it hit something. chris kostanick decvax!vortex!ism780!chris ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Feb 85 11:34:28 pst Message-Id: <8502241934.AA20465@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ISM780!chris Subject: Re: Lunar mining As i remember it, the moon rocks had a high titanium content relative to earth rocks. Since titanium is strong, light, and can withstand high tempretures, it seems like building a titanium extractor using some of the solar mirrors would be useful. One problem of the moon is that solar stuff only works for two weeks out of every four. Anybody got any ideas on how to store energy for the two weeks the sun is down? chris kostanick decvax!vortex!ism780!chris ------------------------------ Date: 24 Feb 85 16:34:00 PST From: WOO IL LEE Subject: SSTO! To: space%mit-mc Reply-To: WOO IL LEE From "Aerospace Americe", Feb. 85, pg.1: .......Robert Cooper, director of the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, says that variable geometry hydrogen-burning supersonic-combustion ramjets (SCRAMjets) "using current state-of-the-art technology" could take off horizontally and accelerate to Mach 25, using existing Pratt & Whitney RL-10 rocket engines for final orbit injection. Motivation for their development, he said, is the need to reduce payload launch costs to $100/lb. ------ ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #97 ******************* 27-Feb-85 0350 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #98 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 98 Today's Topics: Digest numbering Re: Light Sails Re: Space burial Re: Light Sail Deployment Re: Energy supply problems on the Moon Single Stage to Orbit Re: Light Sails Re: Orphaned Response (Storing lunar solar power) Launch Set for 4 March Launch Date Announced -- Launch Pad Report Re: Net.space.junk and the like Re: Teacher in space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 25 Feb 85 10:57:12 pst To: All From: Ted Anderson Subject: Digest numbering As some of you may have noticed the last three digests we all numbered issue 95. I have fixed the problem with the macros and edited the archive copies so that there is a 95, 96 and 97. This digest should be issue 98. -The Moderator ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Feb 85 05:33:12 pst Message-Id: <8502251333.AA23019@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Light Sails > ... Are solar sails designed to get their > momentum from ... reflecting sunlight ..., or > do they get most of it from collisions with other particles that are > constantly emitted from the sum (e.g. neutrons)? ... Sails are optical reflectors. Neutrons and the like are much rarer than photons, and are hard to stop as well. > ... Also, what's a good assumption as to the > composition of the sail? Would a large expanse of metallized mylar be > reasonable... Low-performance sails are typically assumed to be aluminized mylar. High-performance sail designs are all (as far as I know) derived from Eric Drexler's designs, which are aluminized *nothing*, just a layer of aluminum about the thickness of a virus. (Sorry for lack of numbers, my references aren't handy.) They are just as reflective and far, far lighter than aluminized-mylar sails. A hexagonal sail 10 km across weighs only about 20 tons. The major limitation of aluminum sails is that they *must* be assembled in space; they are basically rigid structures and cannot be folded up into a small package for launch. If you really want high performance, especially in low Earth orbit, one intriguing notion is to take a Drexler aluminum sail and punch it full of very tiny (smaller than a wavelength of light) holes. Holes which are significantly smaller than a wavelength of light will not affect the reflectivity of the sail, but they will lighten it considerably. Just as interesting, air molecules at orbital altitudes are independent of each other and will go through tiny holes just as easily as through big ones. Not only does one get (say) a 75% weight reduction, one also gets a 75% air-drag reduction. The snag here is that nobody knows how to make perforated-sail material yet. Ultra-thin aluminum is easy, but the holes are hard. (Last I heard, anyway.) > ... or would this rip to shreds under meteor impact? ... The density of dust and debris is too low to significantly damage a sail, except in anomalous areas like planetary rings. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Feb 85 07:38:22 pst Message-Id: <8502251538.AA23233@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: nmtvax!maurice Subject: Re: Space burial >Has SSI considered the possibility that they could be starting our >first inter-stellar war? I, for one, would consider it a very hos- >tile act if someone were to fire little ash-filled titanium cap- >sules at me. Such bullets propelled by light-sails, as at least >one netter proposed, could reach their victims at .999c given >enough time. Even if launched only with enough velocity to escape >the solar system, those little bullets would pack quite a wallop >when impacting a target at some great differential speed. An >angry, intelligent civilization so threatened could easily calcu- >late the trajectories and figure out where they came from. >ZAP! we're history! By the time it wastes someone/something and they send something back, provided that they can send something back we WILL be history. In thinking though, could that great siberian explosion (1908?) be someone elses ash-filled titanium capsule hitting us first? roger ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Feb 85 11:42:05 pst Message-Id: <8502251942.AA24440@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: pbear!peterb Subject: Re: Light Sail Deployment Regarding light sails, I don't know if mylar is the best, but I think that it will work quite well. When building a light sail, there are a few design problems that have to be overcome, such as weight (obviously) rigidity, ease of deployment, and resistance to damage from micro meteors. I remember a story called "Sun Jammer" that described an earth to moon race by solar yachts. These varied in design, and the story described quite a bit about the problems of solar sails. One of the problems is how do you deploy a sail that is a few miles in surface area, and then once deployed how do you keep it in shape. One of the obvious ideas it to spin the sail and use centrifical force to keep the sail in place while it is being deployed. This is assuming that the sail has been packed in a tube with the shrouds to be released first and then as the tube rotates the rest of the sail pulls it self out. Also the speed of rotation would drop as more and more sail is released until the entire sail is released. Once released and spinning the sail would form a circle with a depressed center (from photon pressure) and has to be strutted in order for it to keep its shape for a few millenia. One idea I thik would work is to us an foaming agent that is released into mylar tubes that are bonded to the sail (backside so as not to interfere with the mirror). As the foam expands, it would rush to the extreme end of the tube that is exposed to vacuum. Also the centrifical force would help it on its way. Then the foam would vacuum cure and become rigid. This may be a little messy, but it would be quite simple in design. Also the tubes would not have to worry about crimping since the foam would expand slightly as it cured and cause the tubes to assume the largest volume (a circle). The tubes can all be connected to a central valve at the apex of the sail and once the foam is injected and cured the deploment tube can jus cut itself away and the sail would start on its journey. Steering the sail would be difficult, and I don't have the answers to that one. I would wish someone would pick up the idea and bounce it around. Peter Barada ima!pbear!peterb ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Feb 85 11:42:40 pst Message-Id: <8502251942.AA24449@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: pbear!peterb Subject: Re: Energy supply problems on the Moon Sure, park your solar energy producer on one of the poles, that way its in the sun all the time (except for lunar eclipses) either that, or you can build a heat resivoir and store the heat much as solar houses do with a bed of rocks, and then use a sterling engine to extract the energy from the heat differential during the dark period. This only requires a rather large radiator for the sterling to throw awy its heat. Then some of the excess thermal energy can be used to heat a living space. Peter Barada ima!pbear!peterb ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 85 16:07:24 EST From: Hank.Walker@CMU-CS-UNH Subject: Single Stage to Orbit To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A Unless I've missed some new data, SCRAM jets have not yet achieved net positive thrust. Dual-fuel engines (kerosene/LH2) can be used to build a single-stage-to-orbit vehicle, but these too need years of work to perfect. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 85 16:16:18 PST (Monday) From: Lynn.es@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Light Sails To: jheimann@BBNCCY.ARPA cc: lynn.es@XEROX.ARPA, space@MIT-MC.ARPA In the talks I have heard on solar sails by the experts, it was stated that the pressure of sunlight is in the range of a thousand to a million times that of solar wind particles. They speak of mylar lasting a few months, and something more resistant to space (Kapton, or something like that) lasting for a few years. They also state that it is impractical to sail beyond Mars or Jupiter because of diminished sunlight. There are thoughts on beaming light at a sail to overcome this, but that is another story. /Don Lynn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Feb 85 21:47:58 pst Message-Id: <8502260547.AA26332@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: mit-eddie!greg (Greg McMullan) Subject: Re: Orphaned Response (Storing lunar solar power) Peter says that we can avoid the problem of storing solar power for a moonbase during the 14 day night by placing the collector at one of the poles. this has two problems. First, it necessitates long power lines if we want our base to be anywhere but near the pole, which is not necessarily serious. Secondly, and more importantly, this then leaves us in the dark for the moon's `winter' which I seem to recall is 6 months long. Not really a useful suggestion, then. Storing heat in the ground is a little better, but i suspect that the heat would diffuse away into the ground or radiate away (3 degrees K heat sink, remember) too fast for this to be much of a help, as well. If I am wrong, please tell me, as I would like to see a way around the problem, but I haven't been able to see one. greg uucp: !genrad!mit-eddie!greg arpa: greg@grape-nehi%mit-mc or g.mcmullan@mit-eecs%mit-mc us snail: 500 memorial drive cambridge, ma, 02139[-4326] (617) 225-8942 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 85 04:29:23 pst Message-Id: <8502261229.AA27221@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: brunix!alb (Adam Buchsbaum) Subject: Launch Set for 4 March NASA yesterday announced that the 3 March launch date would probably slip a day or two due to tardiness in rolling the Challenger to the launch pad. The agency then set a new launch date at 4 March. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 85 04:29:40 pst Message-Id: <8502261229.AA27228@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: brunix!alb (Adam Buchsbaum) Subject: Launch Date Announced -- Launch Pad Report NASA has set the launch date for the Challenger at 0821 EST on 4 March. In order for the Discovery to maintain its 19 March liftoff date, it will have to be moved to the launch pad just four days after Challenger launches. NASA expects to be able to complete this launch-pad turnaround within ten shifts after launch. With the Atlantis scheduled to join the shuttle fleet in April and Columbia due back in service next summer, the launch pad crowding will get more severe. However, by January, 1986, it should not be bad at all, as VAFB will be ready and so will pad 39B, a second launch pad at KSC. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 85 10:21:22 pst Message-Id: <8502261821.AA28292@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: unm-cvax!val236ah Subject: Re: Net.space.junk and the like (a small sacrifice of a line for the sake of humanity) O.K.-here is an example of a) why the >messages should be used. (although I do admit some use them to much excess and b) why net.space should remain as such. If there are people out there who are concerned that the subject material in this newsgroup is getting silly and inane (Where's the article on playing a funeral dirge on your guitar while your friends ashes sail away into space) why don't they start posting articles about different subjects. If you don't like what your reading, throw forth a topic for discussion. Oh, by the way, what in the hell is a: > variable geometry hydrogen-burning supersonic-combustion ramjet? (here lies an example of a correctly used >statement.) Is it some form of rocket with a fancy name or what?? Ronald C. Rosul Jr. (val236ah) line to me (I think)-lanl!unmvax!unm-cvax!val236ah "Thats one small step for a man....." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 85 10:23:45 pst Message-Id: <8502261823.AA28312@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: faron!meister (Philip W. Servita) Subject: Re: Teacher in space > I'd rather have a Senator in space than a teacher . . . but I'd >rather the Senator was William Proxmire; maybe they'd leave him up there! :-) ... >was still pretty put off by it. The first REAL civilian in space should be >someone who can relate the beauty and excitement of the experience to those >of us who are back on the ground, preferably a writer or journalist, not a >teacher. (Sorry, mom.) nah. the first civilian up in space should be Andy Rooney. "Have you ever thought about vaccuum? I have, and this is what I've found out..." -the venn buddhist --------------------------------------------------------------------- is anything really trash before you throw it away? --------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #98 ******************* 28-Feb-85 0350 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #99 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 99 Today's Topics: Re: Net.space.junk and the like Solar observation Re: Bellyache Re: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #90 Re: Single Stage to Orbit mining the moon Re: Re: Orphaned Response (Storing lunar Re: Light Sail Deployment Re: Light Sails Re: Light Sails ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Feb 85 11:46:40 pst From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) Message-Id: <8502261946.AA04329@ucbkim.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Re: Net.space.junk and the like I apologize for submitting this to the full space mailing list, but the usenet correspondent is otherwise unreachable by me. Anyway. The real problem, for you usenet people, is that Arpa mailing lists are precisely that -- about ten minutes after I send this mail off, it will arrive in the mailbox of every other reader of this group on the arpanet. This means that: (a) Every message is an additional strain on every Arpa mailer, packet-switcher, and disk server; and (b) My mailbox, and others, get very cluttered with what is really junk mail. I've just arrived after four days out of the office and I had *92* mail messages, many of them from usenet correspondents of this newsgroup. This is at least a fivefold increase in volume on this mailing list over the period when it was an arpa-only mailing list. Many of us find this volume unacceptable, and hence there are three options: (1) We can unsubscribe, and form a new arpa-only space mailing list; (2) We can close the gateway, and split off a new combined mailing list: maybe usenet.space; or (3) Find someone who will act as a fairly draconian moderator and refuse to resend nonsense (I mean, .999c as a velocity for a light sail...) messages. I favor option (2). Rick. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 85 13:48:31 CST From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI To: space@Mit-Mc.ARPA Subject: Solar observation I noticed, in a recently-posted propagation forecast over on Info-Hams (or net.ham-radio), a reference to a certain part of the sun coming back into view, due to solar rotation. (This was in reference to activity on that part of the solar surface, and its effect on the ionosphere.) Anyway, that made me wonder -- do we now have sufficient spacecraft in solar orbits that we can keep the entire solar surface in view all the time? Or do we just have a few (or just one), making near-sun observations? I'm so used to having a myriad of earth satellites that I lose track of what is going on in other parts of the solar system. I would think it would pay economic benefits to know what is going on all over the solar surface, since what is happening on the opposite side will hit us a few days later on. Is such a program in effect now, in the planning stages, or not being considered as worthy of the cost involved? Regards, Will ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 85 23:44:36 pst Message-Id: <8502270744.AA01513@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: mot!johnrk (John Koehring) Subject: Re: Bellyache I second Kieran's sentiments. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 85 04:51:08 pst Message-Id: <8502271251.AA02376@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ames!eugene (Eugene Miya) Subject: Re: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #90 > Professional??????????? > > Eugine(sp?) at ames is the only one who shows a truly > professionsal outlook in these groups, net.columba and net.space. > > Steve Ludlum, decvax!yale-co!ima!stevel, {amd|ihnp4!cbosgd}!ima!stevel > Interactive Systems, 7th floor, 441 Stuart st, Boston, MA 02116; 617-247-1155 permit me to crawl out my cave while our systems people get cft 1.14 installed. professional? me? consider me in the usenix jargon: an "un-official." why would anybody take space seriously? it's no better reality, but i must confess working on space projects: so far seasat, voyager, hcmm, landsat was childhood ambition. [what to do rocky horror groupies use as their ending quote?] don't take space too seriously [within limits]. don't take me to seriously: i have not worked on shuttle or other manned projects, nor on the space station. the postings by phil and adam to net.columbia as well as numerous others are as good as having other nasa centers on the net [better in some ways]. fortunately for me, my management approves my scanning the usenet. they have been impressed by posting of net.jobs, requests for device drivers on net.wanted, and so forth. now i am out of direct space work and into supercomputing. i lunch with space station and pioneer project people, but yearn for deep space work. nuclear winter research is important, too. regarding the news group, i think ron's letter and subsequent follow on have sparked new thinking. last week's quality: postings on extraterrestial intelligence and space construction are quite impressive. although space digest is archived on the arpanet, what the news group needs the most is some sort of long-term collective memory. i've suggested this to net.astro with meager response. we need summary collections of past discussions to prevent going in circles and rediscovering the "wheel." something like mark horton's introduction to reading network news is in order. it's that simple. the problem is the disk space and access. anybody want to experiment with optical storage? time to crawl back to the cray and "non" debug the new compiler. suffering diarrhea of the mouth. --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,vortex}!ames!aurora!eugene emiya@ames-vmsb.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 85 04:44:45 pst Message-Id: <8502271244.AA02313@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: haddock!stevel Subject: Re: Single Stage to Orbit > Unless I've missed some new data, SCRAM jets have not yet achieved net > positive thrust. In this weeks Aviation Week & Space Technology page 52 claims "Testing has already produced net thrust to drag ratios of better then one at high Mach numbers." Later in the article. "The relativly small engine has been tested at speeds around Mach 4, and researchers plan to begin tests at higher speeds this year." Steve Ludlum, decvax!yale-co!ima!stevel, {amd|ihnp4!cbosgd}!ima!stevel decwrl!amd!ima!stevel, {uscvax|ucla-vax|vortex}!ism780!stevel Interactive Systems, 7th floor, 441 Stuart st, Boston, MA 02116; 617-247-1155 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 85 07:53:24 pst Message-Id: <8502271553.AA02821@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: npois!jay (Anton Winteroak) Subject: mining the moon Bob Mauritsen asked about the consequences of developing the moon. This is a subject that I've done a fair amount of thinking about in the past. Amoung the things that come to mind are: 1.) The main complaint about strip mining the Earth seems to be that it makes the mined area look like the moon. This is not a problem on the moon. Also there is no delicate ecology to screw up. Also there is no mechanism for disolving and transporting toxic wastes. 2.) The largest problems that would result in terms of future research opportunities being ruined would have to do with a surface layer of dust and absorbed modern gases being created. This would not affect lower layers. 3.) It is my hope for the future that the cost of polluting the Erth will become so high, and the cost of manufacturing in space so low, that polluting industries will mostly move to the moon or elsewhere. This could result in economic problems here for a while, but that would be a small price to pay for a clean habitable planet. Of course the moon has some valuable raw materials, but I think in the long run we will find that it's cheaper to go get a metalic asteroid and strip mine that. That would certainly be easier than mining Mars. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 85 13:33:53 pst Message-Id: <8502272133.AA03899@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: pbear!peterb Subject: Re: Re: Orphaned Response (Storing lunar I don't think that the heat from the ground will escape fast IF You use insulation, or even just leave it. The moon is after all the biggest example of a dewer flask... Peter PS I didn't know that the moon had a 'winter'. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 85 13:36:17 pst Message-Id: <8502272136.AA03927@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: petrus!karn Subject: Re: Light Sail Deployment Does anyone know just how high you have to be to construct a "high performance" solar sail? Aside from atmospheric drag (which makes your average space shuttle orbit useless) there is also a rather large gravity gradient at low altitudes which might rip a delicate sail. Phil ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 85 15:33:21 pst Message-Id: <8502272333.AA04458@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: uwvax!derek (Derek Zahn) Subject: Re: Light Sails > In the talks I have heard on solar sails by the experts, it was stated > that the pressure of sunlight is in the range of a thousand to a million > times that of solar wind particles. Got time for a dumb question? Too bad. I can't figure how the energy of photons from the sun is going to be converted into motion of the light sail. I jus' don't get it. If the photon is reflected, there can be no change in momentum of the sail (momentum being conserved), unless the photon loses energy. In this case, what is the mechanism that causes the transfer of momentum, and how efficient could it possibly be? If the photon is absorbed, it seems much more likely that the energy would be converted to heat. Somebody help, for I is baffled. derek -- Derek Zahn @ wisconsin ...!{allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,sfwin,ucbvax,uwm-evax}!uwvax!derek derek@wisc-rsch.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 85 22:44:24 pst From: Rick McGeer (on an z29-e) Message-Id: <8502280644.AA27314@ucbkim.ARPA> To: uwvax!derek@Berkeley, space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Re: Light Sails Cc: A photon's momentum is proportional to its frequency (quantum mechanically, that is...) Hence the momentum transfer to the sail is expressed as an increase in the photon's wavelength. Rick. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #99 ******************* 01-Mar-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #100 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 100 Today's Topics: RE: spce burial out of this solar system Re: Light Sails energy for the lunar night Possible Postponement photon wavelengths and solar-sail Re: photon wavelengths and solar-sail ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Feb 85 17:57:24 pst From: Message-Id: <8502270157.AA28623@HP-VENUS> To: mordor!space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: RE: spce burial out of this solar system References: <608@mordor.UUCP> Photon impact is the source of propulsion. Don't worry about meteors. Any material heavy enough to resist meteor impact is too heavy for photons to push around. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 85 11:39:40 pst Message-Id: <8502281939.AA01141@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: rochester!nemo (Wolfe) Subject: Re: Light Sails > Got time for a dumb question? Too bad. I can't figure how the energy of > photons from the sun is going to be converted into motion of the light sail. > I jus' don't get it. If the photon is reflected, there can be no change in > momentum of the sail (momentum being conserved), unless the photon loses > derek Remember that the momentum is directed. The mv of the photon becomes -mv when it is reflected, so there is a net momentum change of 2mv, which is imparted to the reflecting surface. There are these little globes with vacuum and a paddle/pivot mechanism inside which work on this principle. The four paddles are arranged so that the intersection of the two planes is the axis of rotation of the pivot. Each paddle has a black side and a silver side with radial symmetry. Placed in light, the paddle(s) on one side of the pivot will reflect the light, the one(s) on the other will absorb the light. The absorbing surface gets only the inelastic momentum change, or mv, while the reflecting surface gets the 2mv momentum change. This creates a torque on the paddle structure, and the little bugger rotates. Available at novelty stores near you! Nemo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 85 12:02:40 pst Message-Id: <8502282002.AA01447@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: npois!jay (Anton Winteroak) Subject: energy for the lunar night While I can't give numbers for efficiency, I can tell you that even on earth we use thermal reservoirs. Typically they are large bags (10**6 gallons) of water that are surrounded by insulation, and kept under dirt, and a playground. They are used in the Northeastern US to heat schools during the winter. The water is made hot during the summer using water heating solar panels. The same basic concept should be usable on the moon, though I imagine that a substance other than water would be used there. Sodium might be best, if we can find any up there. (Most of the surface samples from the moon were pretty low in sodium). Also some more intense way of heating the reservoir would be needed. As was pointed out earlier on this net, there are ways to convert this heat to electricity. I suppose, that it might be heated with the waste energy from the refining of the aluminum and titanium. My image of how such an operation might run, is that energy intensive things would be done during the daylight, and set up, and take down would be done at night. I haven't really thought it through, but we have time. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 85 12:06:24 pst Message-Id: <8502282006.AA01496@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: brunix!alb (Adam Buchsbaum) Subject: Possible Postponement A hydrogen leak and a faulty battery may postpone Monday's launch of the Challenger by up to two weeks, NASA said today. The leak, between the shuttle and its external tank, may not be serious enough to postpone the launch, but one of the satellites in the payload bay may have to have one of its batteries replaced, which would necessitate a ''stand-down.'' ------------------------------ Date: 28 Feb 85 16:51:42 EST From: LANTZ@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: photon wavelengths and solar-sail To: space-enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA If the energy transfered to the sail results in a shift in the wavelength of the photon, is it true that a sail wich is moving faster (producing greater red-shift) receives more energy from each photon? I would guess that this is not the case due to factors having to do with relative velocity of the sail and the observer, but I am not able to put it all together. Brian Lantz (Lantz@Rutgers) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 85 14:58:31 pst From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) Message-Id: <8502282258.AA07587@ucbkim.ARPA> To: LANTZ@RUTGERS.ARPA, space-enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Re: photon wavelengths and solar-sail Sorry, my message was quite incorrect. As another correspondent has pointed out, it is not the wavelength of the photon that is affected, but rather the vector. Since momentum is a vector quantity, not scalar, the total net momentum transfer to the sail is 2P, where P is the momentum of the entire set of photons impacting the sail. To see how this works, remember that the *vector* momentum is conserved; to a first approximation, we imagine the sail to be travelling in a linear direction x, with 0 momentum in this reference frame. We then imagine a solid photon wavefront with aggregate momentum P travelling in the positive x axis. The photon rebounds in a perfect elastic collision along the x axis... Total Momentum before collision: P (photons) + 0 (sail) Total Momentum following collision: -P (photons) + x (sail) equating and solving, we get x = 2P. (1) Of course, this is idealized. The total momentum transfer to the sail can be obtained by integrating the momenta of the photons before and after the collision. This is related to wavelength by the DeBroglie formula: mv = hf, where h is Planck's constant and f = 1/lambda. The wavelength will have lengthed by Compton's formula: lambda' = lambda + h/mc (1 - cos theta) where m is the mass of the particle that the photon collided with, and theta is the angle of the deflection... In our idealized case, theta = pi, hence (assuming the entire mass of the sail is involved in a collision), we get (note I'm assuming coherent light): lambda' = lambda + 2 h / mc (2) writing lambda as l, the total momentum of the photon wavefront post-collision is: h/(l+2h/mc) hence the total momenta of the photon post-collision is: P[1-2h/(clm+2h)] (3) as a result, there's a net loss of momentum transfer from (1) due to the (trivial) redshift noted in (2). The total net momentum transfer to the sail is then: 2P[1-h/(clm+2h)] Bottom line: yes, as I said yesterday, there *is* a redshifting effect. However, its net effect on the momentum of the light sail is *negative*, not positive, and it is trivial. Sorry about that. Hope this clears everything up. [NB -- the effect here is the *maximum* loss due to the Compton effect...] Rick. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 85 11:41:37 est From: Tony Guzzi To: space@mit-mc.ARPA RE: the maiden voyage of the shuttle Altantis Does anyone have any info on the tentative launch date (or dates)? ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #100 ******************* 02-Mar-85 0351 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #101 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 101 Today's Topics: Crookes radiometer Photon momentum Momentum transfer in light sails Re: Momentum transfer in light sails Re: Light Sails lunar heat sink Correction Re: Light Sails Re: Orphaned Response Re: Light Sails Lunar Mining Re: SSTO! Re: Orphaned Response Re: Light Sails ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 1 Mar 85 8:33:16 EST From: Dick Koolish Subject: Crookes radiometer To: space@mit-mc.arpa Crookes radiometer does not work by light pressure. The globe contains a low pressure gas. The incomming light heats up the dark side of the vanes. When a gas molecule hits the dark vane, it absorbes some of the heat and rebounds faster than if it hit the cool silvered side of the vane. This is what makes the vanes turn. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 85 11:12:32 EST From: BIESEL@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: Photon momentum To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA About that dime-store gizmo with the black and silver vanes: it is a common misconception that it rotates because of the difference in momentum exchange between the light and dark sides. T'aint so. Careful observation will show that the wheel turns in a direction that implies that there is a greater force per unit area on the dark side of the vanes than on the light side. In fact, the propulsive force is thermal: the dark paddle gets warmer than the light side; this in turn heats the remaining air molecules in the bulb differentially. The consequent minute pressure differences between light and dark sides of the vanes make the whole thing spin. Note that the bulb contains a rather poor vacuum. Too much air and the viscous drag keeps the thing from turning, too little air, and the heat engine doesn't work any more. In a very good vacuum you'd have an approximation of your light sail; unfortunately it would not work, because the forces generated by photon momentum exchange are orders of magnitude less than the radiant energy in the photon stream which the little heat engine is using, and would not suffice to overcome the friction in the system. (unless you had *very* good bearings, were fanatical about balancing the thing, etc.) Biesel@rutgers.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 85 11:34:20 pst From: bsuper%ucbtopaz.CC@Berkeley Message-Id: <8503011934.AA03432@ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA> To: space@mit-mc Subject: Momentum transfer in light sails After reading Rick McGeers' description of momentum transfer between photons and a light sail, it seems to me that all momentum imparted to the sail must be radial to the sun. Is there any way to impart momentum to the sail in a tangential direction? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 85 12:18:51 pst From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) Message-Id: <8503012018.AA21539@ucbkim.ARPA> To: bsuper%ucbtopaz.CC@Berkeley, space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Re: Momentum transfer in light sails Sure there is. Use various sails, of differing sizes, at varying angles and distances from your craft. The momentum vector of your craft is the sum of the momentum vectors of the various light sails, which are all radial to the sun (but the sum vector need not be). The restriction is that net momentum is always *away* from the sun: you can't accelerate in a sunward direction using a light sail. Actually, now that I think of it, there's no reason that the momentum vector of a sail need be radial to the sun: if the sail were forced to deform, so that pole of the sail was not in its centre, then the resultant vector *wouldn't* be radial to the sun. Further thought on tacking into the sun: yes, it can be done, if you use gravitational interactions. That is, tack in an outbound direction against your current elliptical solar orbit: you'll kill your radial velocity and fall inward. Rick. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 85 17:43:52 CST From: Mike Caplinger Subject: Re: Light Sails To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Message-Id: The original question was more about conservation of ENERGY than conservation of momentum. The momentum of a reflected photon is reversed, but its energy, a scalar, is the same (assuming perfect reflection = no wavelength shift. The velocity, hence kinetic energy, of a photon can't change.) So if the sail starts moving from the impulse, where did the kinetic energy of its motion come from? Remember that in a collision both momentum AND energy are conserved. I would really like to know the answer. My physics seems to be too rusty to generate it, but I know there's something funny... - Mike ps. Those bulbs with the vanes ("radiometers") invariably spin in the WRONG direction. That effect is caused by bad vacuum in the bulb causing convection currents off the black surface. If light pressure were doing it, they would rotate black surface first, as the white surfaces are reflecting, not absorbing, and get twice the momentum exchange. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 85 20:11:56 EST From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: lunar heat sink To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A There is at least one mountain peak at the North Lunar pole that is always in sunlight. It is also true that craters there are always in shadow, thus the idea that water might exist in the ultralow temperatures. Some have suggested that ion sputtering may have destroyed any water that existed there. Anyway, I digress. A solar collector could be run there. You could also use the eternal temperature difference for a heat-engine, particularly if you use a mirror to increase the temperature of the hot pole, and thus increase the amount of work that can be extracted from the system. I believe there may be some discussion of this idea in the literature. In fact I think there was a paper on it presented at the Lunar Base Symposium in DC last October. As to the lunar soil, I believe that it has a high thermal conductivity, and thus your heat sink would rapidly warm up the surrounding several kilometers by a few tenths of a degree. (If anyone out there has the real conductivity figures, please jump in). I'd really suggest a small fission reactor. You don't even need shielding. Just stuff it in a convenient crater. Same thing with the waste products. They certainly aren't going anywhere. Once things the economics are right, you'll probably beam energy from an SPS as an additional source. Someone also was asking about the titanium in lunar regolith. The lunar highlands consists of a quite reasonable ore grade for titanium. I believe it's on the same order as the rutile sands in Australia where we currently get most of our titanium. I'd also suggest that anyone interested in these topics read through the SSI/AAS Space Industrialization proceedings. You'll learn an enormous amount and avoid reinventing the wheel, the hub and the chariot. I'm glad someone finally jumped in with facts on the Drexler light sail. I was about ready to give Eric a call and have him dictate an answer. By the way, he has a book coming out next fall on molecular engineering. Watch for it. A space burial via solar sail is certainly not going to attain .999c. However, using a very high power laser, like the SDI ones and a VERY good mirror, it might be possible to reach terminal velocities that are substantial fractions of c. Those same lasers would be quite good for building Dr. Kantrowitz's laser launchers. That concept is a simple ceramic combustion chamber with pulsed lasers supplying energy from the ground. The initial reaction mass is the air that rushes into the chamber between pulses. Some additional mass may be needed for orbit injection. The beauty of the process is that it puts things in orbit for a few dollars/pound. I think a good milestone to use when looking at orbit costs is the potential energy of an object at orbital altitude and it's kinetic energy at orbital speed. I'm too lazy at the moment to recalculate the numbers, but I believe in terms of KWHrs, it should only cost pennies/pound. As to music, I think we've now got enough members for the first lunar pick up band: Guitar, bass, cello, piano... (is there an electronic drummer out there?) How about calling ourselves (groan) "The Space Invaders"? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 85 20:09:36 pst Message-Id: <8503020409.AA03041@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: rochester!nemo Sender: rochester!nemo Subject: Correction From: Richard Newman-Wolfe Whoops. The little dohicky with the paddles actually rotates the *other* way in a *partial* vacuum due to a totally different effect. Namely the dark side absorbs more photons and heats up, transfers the heat to the gas near the surface, which then expands, pushing the paddle away. Ne (face radiating a good deal of heat) mo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 85 20:11:43 pst Message-Id: <8503020411.AA03083@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: uwvax!judah (Judah Greenblatt) Subject: Re: Light Sails > ... Each paddle has a black side and a > silver side with radial symmetry. Placed in light, the paddle(s) on one > side of the pivot will reflect the light, the one(s) on the other will absorb > the light. The absorbing surface gets only the inelastic momentum change, > or mv, while the reflecting surface gets the 2mv momentum change. This > creates a torque on the paddle structure, and the little bugger rotates. > Available at novelty stores near you! > Nemo The principle of light pressure is correct, but unfortunatly, it is not what drives a radiometer (as these little toys are called). If you look closely at a radiometer spinning in the sunlight, you will see that the vanes spin with the SILVER face leading and the BLACK face trailing. If light pressure drove the spinner, the BLACK face should lead and the SILVER face (which would be pushed twice as hard by the light pressure) would follow. The radiometer is actually a simple heat engine: the BLACK side of the vane heats up slightly more than the SILVER side and the vanes are driven by the difference in momemtum of gas molicules bouncing off the warmer and cooler sides. Light pressure is actually much weaker than the forces that drive a radiometer. Judah Greenblatt ARPA: judah@wisc-rsch.arpa U. of Wisconsin C.S. Dept. UUCP: {seismo ihnp4 lbl-csam}!uwvax!judah ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 85 20:28:19 pst Message-Id: <8503020428.AA03289@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: sjuvax!mccann (mccann) Subject: Re: Orphaned Response The problem of the moon being in darkness for 2 out of four weeks (and thus unable to use solar power) could (I think) be solved by using a large solar power gathering satlleite orbiting in such a way that it could send power down to the base (either simply as reflected light or by using solar cells and beaming it down as microwaves.) The biggest problem with this is that I don't know if there is such a location. Any body know? M. McCann ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 85 20:42:23 pst Message-Id: <8503020442.AA03461@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ssc-vax!eder (Dani Eder) Subject: Re: Light Sails > > From: John Heimann > > I sat down and tried to sketch out just how fast a solar sail could > > reasonably be expected to go, assuming a point source of illumination (the > more helpful, if only by a little bit. A more important point is that > if you just hold up your sail against the sun you'll have problems unless > your Area/mass ratio is quite large. Below a critical limit you will simply > reduce the sun's gravity by a constant fraction. The angular momentum you > posess from the Earth's orbit will carry you out to some distance from > the sun into a new, and larger orbit, and there you will stay. You need to > tilt your sail to gain angular momentum as you go. > "Don't argue with a fool. Ethan Vishniac > Borrow his money." {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan Congratulations! Ethan has rediscovered the 'lightness ratio'. This is a performance measure for solar sails. It is the ratio of light pressure to gravitational attraction for a given sail. Since both fall off as inverse square of distance, the figure is a constant for that sail. Light pressure is F=2P/c, where P is the light falling on the sail (watts), c is the speed of light, and 2 is for a perfect reflector. A typical real sail might be 1.8, meaning 80% reflected light. The gravitational attraction is GMm/r^2, where G is the gravitational constant, M is the mass of the Sun, m is the mass of the sail, and r is the distance between them. A lightness ratio of 1 means the sail can hang motionless, balanced between gravity and light. If the ratio is greater than 1, then on a radial escape mission, at every point on the trajectory, net outward force is (lightness ratio - 1)x gravity. The final velocity is then (L.R. - 1)^.5 x escape velocity. Since escape velocity depends on where you start, there is no single answer. For the more complicated case of a spiral out mission, I don't know what the answer would be. As for what you make your solar sail out of, you use VERY thin aluminum foil, preferably less than one micron thick. Typical plans call for vapor depositing the sail material in orbit, then somehow getting it off the substrate. Use graphite fibers to hang the aluminum off of. Spin the whole structure slowly, thus all the structure is in tension, and tends to stay flat. Don't get too near the Earth. Below about 1000 km, air drag exceeds light pressure, and you fall out of the sky very fast. Eric Drexler of L5 fame, and Robert L Forward, at Hughes Research Laboratories (and science fiction writer) are two names you can look up in abstracts for articles. I've been a fan of lightsails (any non rocket transportation, in fact) for quaite a while, so I can try to answer any more questions you might have. Dani Eder / ssc-vax!eder / Boeing / Advanced Space Transportation ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 85 20:42:39 pst Message-Id: <8503020442.AA03468@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ssc-vax!eder (Dani Eder) Subject: Lunar Mining > > As i remember it, the moon rocks had a high titanium content > relative to earth rocks. Since titanium is strong, light, and > can withstand high tempretures, it seems like building a titanium > extractor using some of the solar mirrors would be useful. > > One problem of the moon is that solar stuff only works for > two weeks out of every four. Anybody got any ideas on how to > store energy for the two weeks the sun is down? > > chris kostanick > decvax!vortex!ism780!chris During the lunar day, focus sunlight on a patch of ground. Two weeks later, by nightfall, you should have a big puddle of molten rock. Hold up your photovoltaics to it. They work just dandy in the near infra-red. Dani Eder / ssc-vax!eder / Boeing ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Mar 85 00:10:39 pst Message-Id: <8503020810.AA04623@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: SSTO! SCRAMjet technology is mostly on paper. It is extraordinarily difficult to test realistically, since airframe and engine have to be integrated closely (or so I'm told), and nobody's felt like financing a dedicated research aircraft just to check it out. SSTO does not require SCRAMjets, or variable geometry either. It can probably be done with an aerospike nozzle plus modern lightweight structural materials, burning conventional propellants in a fairly conventional way. There is little in the way of difficult or uncertain engineering in this approach. (By contrast, variable-geometry SCRAMjets sound like a recipe for horrendous complexity and expense.) And some of the folks pushing this method think that $100/lb is a ridiculously high cost to orbit and could be beaten easily. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Mar 85 00:12:00 pst Message-Id: <8503020812.AA04641@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Orphaned Response > As i remember it, the moon rocks had a high titanium content > relative to earth rocks. Since titanium is strong, light, and > can withstand high tempretures, it seems like building a titanium > extractor using some of the solar mirrors would be useful. Actually, a fair number of earth rocks have substantial titanium content. The problem with titanium is not finding it, but getting it out -- it's ferociously chemically active and hangs on TIGHT to elements like oxygen. You've got to do a good job of separation, too, because even a trace of oxygen makes it brittle. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Mar 85 00:12:48 pst Message-Id: <8503020812.AA04652@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: micomvax!peter Subject: Re: Light Sails On the question of how photons can impart energy to a light sail, I imagine a reflected photon would lose energy to the sail, so it (the photon) would go to a lower frequency, longer wavelength, etc. You shine blue light at a receding light sail, and get red light back. For a sail starting from rest, the photon wavelength shift would probably be immeasurably small, but still non-zero. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #101 ******************* 03-Mar-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #102 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 102 Today's Topics: Re: Re: Light Sails Lunar Colony Solar sail energy transfer mechanism Re: Moon chemicals/energy storage Re: Re: Light Sails Sen in Space. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 2 Mar 85 10:25:46 pst From: Rick McGeer (on an z29-e) Message-Id: <8503021825.AA10510@ucbkim.ARPA> To: mike@rice.ARPA, space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Re: Re: Light Sails Cc: I've said so many contradictory things about this issue that most of them must be wrong. As a result, I leave this to someone who knows more about physics than I do. However, Tipler, pp 958-960 seems to claim that the increased kinetic energy of a particle struck by a photon is due to the Compton effect, which I gave in my last note. I can't figure out what's wrong with the momentum calculations right at present, though... Rick. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Mar 85 14:53:25 pst Message-Id: <8503022253.AA00235@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ISM780!chris Subject: Lunar Colony I've been wondering about how much mass would be needed to get a small colony started on the moon. I'm assuming that the colony would be 4 to 8 people living on the moon for a couple of years. There would be flights from earth, but they would not (because of cost) be able to bring each and every item that was needed. What i suspect they would bring is complicated manufactured items (like chips, carbon mono-filament, carbide tipped machine tool bits) that would be too difficult to manufacture on the moon. It seems like one of the first orders of business would be to start some type of farm, because food is high bulk, and people need a lot of it every day. Water and oxygen would be broken out of the rocks, and metals smelted using solar mirrors. Living arrangements would almost certainly have to be underground to provide cheap protection against sunlight, radiation, micrometeorites and big tempreture changes. One housing technique might be to dig a hole, put in a big ballon, and cover it with foam in place plastic to provide a rigid shell. This would then be covered with lunar soil as an insulator. Here is the list of stuff (by no means comprehensive) that looks necessary: a lathe Food for ~1 year plastic monomers solar mirror pieces (don't have to be very good) plastic tents digging equipment (vacuum version of small cat) water fertilizers, seeds, farming tools electronic repair kit medical equipment and drugs explosives wire, lights, general electrical contractors stuff air renewer (and spares) pressure suits This is looking like quite a bit of mass. How do we get it into orbit, and how do we get it down to the lunar surface? chris kostanick decvax!vortex!ism780!chris ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Mar 85 16:07:20 pst Message-Id: <8503030007.AA01731@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: fisher@dvinci.DEC Sender: decwrl!daemon Subject: Solar sail energy transfer mechanism uwvax!derek asks >~"how does energy get transferred from the photon to the sail..." The problem with your explanation is that it does not consider the vector nature of momentum. Rather than deal with vector equations, let's consider a one-dimensional system so I can deal only with + and -. The photon is plowing along with momentum +mv (m=mass of photon, v=velocity of photon). It smashes into a stationary sail (momentum 0) in a totally inelastic collision and bounces back, now with momentum -mv. Since momentum is conserved, the total {photon, sail} system must still have a total momentum of +mv. The momentum difference between the photon after the collision and the total system before the collision is (-mv)-(+mv) or -2mv. Thus the solar sail (the only other component of the system in this simple model) must now picked up a momentum of +2mv, and thus a velocity of +2mv/M (M is the mass of the sail). Note that if the photon "sticks" to the sail (ignoring kinetic->heat conversion), we have a much different situation. The total sail/photon system still has a momentum of +mv, but now, since they are travelling together, the velocity change of the sail is only mv/(M+m), (slightly) less than half as much! Now (wave hands) consider a two or three dimensional system, and you see that if the photon is absorbed, the sail can only change velocity in the direction that the photon was moving. If the photon is reflected, you can "tack" by tilting the sail and forcing the photon to bounce off at a non-pi angle, thus generating a velocity change in the sail at an angle. Ta da! Not bad for having not dealt with this stuff (except in sci-fi books) since freshman physics! Burns UUCP: ... {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dvinci!fisher ARPA: decwrl!rhea!dvinci!fisher@{Berkeley | SU-Shasta} ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Mar 85 16:10:47 pst Message-Id: <8503030010.AA01787@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: pbear!peterb Subject: Re: Moon chemicals/energy storage In order to create massive amounts of heat on the moon, I think that a working fluid can be obtained (aka sodium, water, air, or whatever is handy) and use a solar mirror to focus suns energy into a confined zone and pass the working fluid through it. using smaller "furnaces" to drive sterling engines to pump the stuff around would make it work pretty well. The only problem I can forsee is finding enough sodium before the first night fell. This would be a real drag on the idea. I wonder if there is free silicon on the moon (pure enough to smelt) that can be used to produce solar panels. Also are the base chemicals around that would be useful for making batteries (lead and H2SO4 type of battery or lithium, or even better: nickel cadium). There are a lot of problem to overcome before an operation like this could become scientifically or even economically possible. Lets start thinking about it. Could someone post the chemical breakdown of the rocks brought back from the moon? I think this would help direct the dicussion and the ideas. Peter Barada ima!pbear!peterb ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Mar 85 21:51:00 pst Message-Id: <8503030551.AA04144@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: rochester!sher (David Sher) Subject: Re: Re: Light Sails To you net.physics people this article is a result of a discussion of light sails and how they work. The question I am addressing is does being reflected by a light sail change the wavelength of the reflected light. This is a tricky problem because it is not well defined. (I am taking this from rememberances of a modern physics class I took 3 years ago so I am not authoritative). Light only has a wavelength relative to an observer. (or a frame I guess). There was an interesting problem I was given in the afore mentioned physics class which was given an observer for which a beam of light with wave length (relative to the observer) lambda is reflected from a mirror moving with relativistic velocity v what is the wave length of the reflected light. I believe it is not the same as the original light except when v is a small fraction of c (whats an epsilon between friends). Try throwing mirors around and see for your self :-). -David Sher ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Mar 85 21:51:38 pst Message-Id: <8503030551.AA04154@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: friedman@topaz.ARPA (Gadi Friedman) Subject: Sen in Space. I heared today that the Sen. will miss his chance to go in space. The mission was canceled due to some problem with the cargo. -Gadi friedman@topaz.(uucp,arpa) ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #102 ******************* 05-Mar-85 0350 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #103 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 103 Today's Topics: Energy storage on the Moon Re: Light Sails with holes Re: Light Sail Deployment Re: Light Sail Deployment More Launch Delays Re: SSTO! Re: SSTO! Re: moon station(s) Re: Light Sails with holes (size of photon vs gas molecule) oops Solar Sails: Where does the energy come from? Re: Light Sails ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 4 Mar 85 07:29:35 pst Message-Id: <8503041529.AA10382@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: josh@topaz.ARPA (J Storrs Hall) Subject: Energy storage on the Moon Flywheels. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Mar 85 20:03:51 pst Message-Id: <8503040403.AA08270@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: azure!philipl (Philip Lantz) Subject: Re: Light Sails with holes > If you really want high performance, especially in low Earth orbit, one > intriguing notion is to take a Drexler aluminum sail and punch it full > of very tiny (smaller than a wavelength of light) holes. Holes which are > significantly smaller than a wavelength of light will not affect the > reflectivity of the sail, but they will lighten it considerably. Just > as interesting, air molecules at orbital altitudes are independent of > each other and will go through tiny holes just as easily as through big > ones. Not only does one get (say) a 75% weight reduction, one also gets > a 75% air-drag reduction. Wouldn't holes "significantly smaller than a wavelength of light" also be significantly smaller than air molecules? Punching holes to reduce weight sounds like a good idea, but I'm not convinced it would reduce the drag any. Showing my ignorance, Philip Lantz tektronix!bronze!philipl ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Mar 85 08:55:42 pst Message-Id: <8503031655.AA06204@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ames!al (Al Globus) Subject: Re: Light Sail Deployment > Steering the sail would be difficult, and I don't have > the answers to that one. I would wish someone would pick up the > idea and bounce it around. > > Peter Barada > ima!pbear!peterb With all this talk about solar sails on the net I thought you might like to know that the World Space Foundation is actually building one and expects to fly it. The have built two prototypes, one full size, and have had an upper stage donated to them. They still need a launch - either shuttle or Ariane - and I don't think they've started on the flight article. They main players are experienced people from JPL, they know what they're doing. I don't know how far they've got on control, but the last I saw there were two small rotatable sails on the end on one of the booms for pitch and roll control. There is also a movable mass near the center of the sail for yaw. If anyone has the address available, why don't you post it? Most of their labor is volunteer. If you want to help, contact Robert Staehle (sp?) at JPL in Pasadena, CA. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Mar 85 07:35:21 pst Message-Id: <8503041535.AA10469@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: petrus!karn Subject: Re: Light Sail Deployment The World Space Foundation is indeed a serious group. They have approached AMSAT, the radio hams who build amateur communications satellites and have proposed a joint venture in which AMSAT builds the communications hardware to fly on their sail. They get command, telemetry and tracking facilities, something that AMSAT can do well, and we (AMSAT) get a slow but free ride for a transponder into a useful communications orbit, something that AMSAT is always looking for. We were all impressed with their technical knowledge of the subject, and they seem to have a viable organization. A possible joint project is only in the very preliminary stages at the moment, but one thing that can make it emerge into reality very fast is for volunteers to step forward and actually take on part of the design job. The primary contact person on the AMSAT side for the project is Dr. John Champa, K8OCL. John recently moved to Michigan and I don't have his new address handy, but mail to him can be forwarded via the AMSAT address (PO Box 27, Washington, DC 20044). Feel free to contact him if you think your interests might lie in the electronics side of such a project. Here's YOUR opportunity to do something "up there" besides talk about it idly on net.space! Regarding photon pressure and spinning toys: AMSAT-Oscar-7, launched in 1974, made practical use of this phenomenon. In those days, amateur satellites had no propulsion systems or active attitude control systems, but something had to be done to keep them from tumbling uncontrollably. The end-over-end motion was easy enough, you just stick a big bar magnet along the main axis of the spacecraft. Within days after launch the whole thing aligns itself with the earth's magnetic field and the satellite turns end-over-end slowly twice per orbit (this is a polar orbit). The remaining problem was to control roll about the magnet axis, and for this task photon pressure was used. The satellite had four antenna elements bent towards one end, which were fabricated out of ordinary carpenter's rule (the kind that's yellow or white, with inch markings). One side of each element was painted white, the other black. The result was a net torque from radiation pressure that slowly rolled the spacecraft about its magnet axis at almost exactly the predicted rate. Very simple, very effective. Phil Karn Asst. VP Engineering, AMSAT ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Mar 85 04:36:54 pst Message-Id: <8503041236.AA09952@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: brunix!alb (Adam Buchsbaum) Subject: More Launch Delays NASA today postponed the launch of the Challenger by three more days, until 7 March, if order to give technicians more time to troubleshoot one of the batteries on the TDRS satellite in the cargo bay. One of its twenty-four cells will not accept a charge. The battery is one of three that supplies power to the satellite when it is out of sunlight. The new delay has forced a postponement of the next launch of the Discovery, originally scheduled for 17 March. The new launch date for that mission is now 20 March, giving a mere 3-day launch window. The window is due to the orbit needed for the Discovery to rendezvous with a satellite that its crew is scheduled to retrieve. The next launch opportunity would come three weeks later. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Mar 85 08:56:38 pst Message-Id: <8503031656.AA06223@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ames!al (Al Globus) Subject: Re: SSTO! > ...And some > of the folks pushing this method think that $100/lb is a ridiculously > high cost to orbit and could be beaten easily. > -- It's amazing how cheap any easy things are when they're still on paper (or in the computer) and you haven't had to make them work yet. Remember when the shuttle would bring costs down to $500/lb to LEO? I think it runs around $3,000 and up in actuality. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Mar 85 08:55:25 pst Message-Id: <8503031655.AA06196@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ames!al (Al Globus) Subject: Re: SSTO! > From: WOO IL LEE > > From "Aerospace Americe", Feb. 85, pg.1: > > .......Robert Cooper, director of the Defense Advanced Research Projects > Agency, says that variable geometry hydrogen-burning supersonic-combustion > ramjets (SCRAMjets) "using current state-of-the-art technology" could take > off horizontally and accelerate to Mach 25, using existing Pratt & Whitney > RL-10 rocket engines for final orbit injection. Motivation for their > development, he said, is the need to reduce payload launch costs to $100/lb. It should be noted, however, that horizontal takeoff results in an orbiter with wings that are twice as heavy and a body half again as heavy as vertical takeoff. This data is in the same issue but a different article. The effect is caused by aerodynamic loads generated during pullup. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Mar 85 08:54:47 pst Message-Id: <8503031654.AA06181@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ames!al (Al Globus) Subject: Re: moon station(s) > This is the first time I've posted something to the net, but I'm > just wondering if anyone has had any qualms about the US or > the USSR, or anyone, setting up permanent bases on the moon, or > doing the kinds of activity that has been mentioned frequently, > such as mining. It seems to me that an extensive discussion is > in order before anyone does this. > > The reason for this is that the moon has no weather and whatever > you do stays around essentially forever. Similarly, whatever > happened in the past that is recorded geologically (lunalogically?) > there is extremely valuable scientifically. This kind of > information should not be thrown away thoughtlessly (or perhaps > at all). I doubt that it is necessary to reserve the entire Moon for scientific purposes, after all, there are other important things in life. The Planetary Society has proposed that portions of the Moon and the planets be set aside as wilderness preserves - much as we have done in this country - and that this be done before people have much time and effort invested in mining and the like. This seems to be a sensible approach. The next step is to choose the specific areas that should be preserved .... Nominations? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Mar 85 15:08:02 pst From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) Message-Id: <8503042308.AA19056@ucbkim.ARPA> To: azure!philipl@Berkeley, space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Re: Light Sails with holes (size of photon vs gas molecule) Light travels at 3E8m/s = c. The length of a wavelength of light is therefore c / f, where f is the frequency. Therefore light radiates in *all* wavelengths... But to give you an idea, 3000 angstroms is well into the UV, and the earth's atmosphere is opaque to photons of length PW - 3000 A, where PW is the Planck-Wheeler length. Anyway, the highest frequency photon we see is about 15 GHz, or in the microwave band -- very high frequency light indeed. A KMol of an ideal gas occupies a volume of 22.4 m^3 at STP. Hence, a molecule of that ideal gas occupies a volume of 3.7x10^-26 m^3. Taking the cube root, we arrive at a very rough length estimate: 3.3*10^-9 metres or 33 angstroms. Hence, it is true that for most wavelengths of light, and all wavelengths that the sun puts out (the lowest number I can find for the bottom -- or top -- end of solar radiation is 250 angstroms). Rick. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Mar 85 18:01:18 pst From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) Message-Id: <8503050201.AA23143@ucbkim.ARPA> To: space-enthusiasts@mit-mc Subject: oops Sorry, the last line of my message should have read: "in short, it is true that a gas molecule at STP is longer than the wavelength of any solar radiation, and hence holes in light sales will reduce drag without affecting thrust, if the holes have diameter less than 250 Angstroms." Rick. ------------------------------ Date: 04 Mar 85 1718 PST From: Ted Anderson Subject: Solar Sails: Where does the energy come from? To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA Several people have noted that the energy gained by a solar sail happens in the form of red shifting the reflected light. As most people probably know a rocket is most efficient when it is operating speed is close to its exhaust speed. You can get a feel for this by noting that when the rocket's speed is the same as its exhaust the exhaust particles aren't moving in the initial frame of reference. This means they have no kinetic energy in the rest frame either. In other words, the efficiency argument can be stated by saying that any kinetic energy left in the exhaust in the rest frame is wasted. The implication of this for light sails is that at low velocities they are abysmally inefficient (though of course they have certain clear advantages, such as low fuel consumption), but at substantial fractions of the speed of light they are wonderful. Actually they lose some attraction a very close to the speed of light since if the light comes from a stationary source it is seriously red shifted by the time it reaches the sail in the first place. This brings to mind another idea I saw a few days ago. I was reading the new Pournelle collection called "Far Frontiers" which has an article by Robert Forward which reviews interstellar propulsion technologies. In there he suggests making a interstellar probe out of a microwave sail. Similar to the idea of poking 1000 Ang. holes in an aluminum visible light sail to save weight, with a microwave sail you only need a 1 cm wire mesh. Forward's suggested design called for a 10GW microwave beam, a 16 gram sail, a 4 gram distributed processing element, 115 g acceleration, and a terminal velocity of 20% c. This gives an acceleration time of 3 days and a distance during acceleration of only 50 AU which greatly simplifies the beam divergence problem. Since 10GW is about the power level commonly suggested for Solar Power Satellites Forward suggested that launching these might be a good use for an SPS during initial checkout. A wonderfully cheap and easy way the explore our local neighborhood. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Mar 85 03:10 EST From: Paul Schauble Subject: Re: Light Sails To: Space@MIT-MC.ARPA, rochester!nemo@HARVARD.ARPA Message-ID: <850305081000.909769@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA> rochester!nemo writes: > There are these little globes with vacuum and a paddle/pivot mechanism > inside which work on this principle. The four paddles are arranged so > that the intersection of the two planes is the axis of rotation of the > pivot. Each paddle has a black side and a silver side with radial > symmetry. Placed in light, the paddle(s) on one side of the pivot > will reflect the light, the one(s) on the other will absorb the light. > The absorbing surface gets only the inelastic momentum change, or mv, > while the reflecting surface gets the 2mv momentum change. This > creates a torque on the paddle structure, and the little bugger > rotates. Available at novelty stores near you! > Nemo This says that the beast should rotate witht he white (reflective) side retreating. Take a close look at one. They rotate in the other direction! Now, would anyone care to provide an explanation?? Paul ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #103 ******************* 06-Mar-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #104 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 104 Today's Topics: Solar sails - Who is building them - address Re: Light Sails with holes Re: Lunar Colony Re: Lunar Colony Re: Momentum transfer in light sails Star Data Posted to Net.sources Re: photon momentum Re: Re: Light Sails Lunar rock chemistry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Mar 1985 0657 PST From: Richard B. August Subject: Solar sails - Who is building them - address To: space-network-source@mit-mc Reply-To: AUGUST@JPL-VLSI.ARPA >To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA >From: ames!al (Al Globus) >Subject: Re: Light Sail Deployment >With all this talk about solar sails on the net I thought you >might like to know that the World Space Foundation is actually >building one and expects to fly it. The main players are >experienced people from JPL, they know what they're >doing. ... >If anyone has the address available, why don't you post it? Most >of their labor is volunteer. If you want to help, contact Robert >Staehle (sp?) at JPL in Pasadena, CA. The address for corespondence with Robert L. Staehle is: Robert L. Staehle Jet Propulsion Laboratory California Institute of Technology 4800 Oak Grove Drive Pasadena, California 91109 M/S 158-224 Phone is: JPL main: (818)354-4321 Staehle: (818)354-6524 (818)354-2280 ------ ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 5 Mar 1985 12:19-EST From: jrv@Mitre-Bedford To: axure!philipl@Mitre-Bedford Cc: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Re: Light Sails with holes >> If you really want high performance, especially in low Earth orbit, one >> intriguing notion is to take a Drexler aluminum sail and punch it full >> of very tiny (smaller than a wavelength of light) holes. > Wouldn't holes "significantly smaller than a wavelength of light" also > be significantly smaller than air molecules? Most of the energy in sunlight is at visible wavelengths (roughly 6000 to 8000 angstroms), while all atoms are about 1 angstrom in diameter. (Atoms of high atomic number have more electrons, but also have higher charges on their nuclei.) Air molecules are a few times larger than atoms. Therefore, a sail with holes a few hundred angstroms across would be "solid" for the light, but would let the air pass. However, the remaining metal would have to be thick enough to be a good conductor, so the photons get reflected rather than just absorbed (else we lose a factor of two in thrust) or even *partially* absorbed (losing even more thrust). I believe this means we need several "skin depths" of metal. Does anyone care to calculate what the skin depth of a 8000 angstrom photon is in aluminum? - Jim Van Zandt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Mar 85 20:20:04 pst Message-Id: <8503060420.AA18331@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: amdahl!ems (ems) Subject: Re: Lunar Colony > > It seems like one of the first orders of business would be > to start some type of farm, because food is high bulk, and people > need a lot of it every day. Water and oxygen would be broken out > of the rocks, and metals smelted using solar mirrors. > > a lathe Food for ~1 year > plastic monomers solar mirror pieces (don't have to be very good) > plastic tents digging equipment (vacuum version of small cat) > water fertilizers, seeds, farming tools > electronic repair kit medical equipment and drugs > explosives wire, lights, general electrical contractors stuff > air renewer (and spares) pressure suits > The first order of business is housing, second is air, third is water, fourth is food. Somewhat in parallel with these comes the need for various tools. As a decendant of blacksmiths I have learned the traditions of tool making. Forget draging the farmtools and small hand tools up with you (after the first batch - and even they are optional). A good smith given reasonable ore and smelting facilities can make an astounding number of tools. Drill bits are among the easier things to make. A lathe would be hard, but given time ... (you see, first you make the anvil, hammer and tongs, then the files, bits, punches and chisles. Next come the pliers...) (I can see it now: 'Neath the spreading antennae tree, the village smithy ... ' Image of burly man sweating in space suite, pull back to show craters and solar forge...) Also, explosives can be made from plant and animal products. Look into the technology of back-to-the-earth homesteads and survivalists for some creative solutions. Mostly what you need is a way to make water, air, and soil (the hard part. there is a lot of stuff in soil.) rand keep it from going away while you let controlled amounts of sunlight in. The rest depends on the kind of lifestyle you want. It could range from early agricultural (add seeds) on up to hightech (add hightech list of medicines and electronics). E. Michael Smith ...!{hplabs,ihnp4,amd,nsc}!amdahl!ems Computo ergo sum The opinions expressed by me are not representative of those of any other person - natural, unnatural, or fictional - and only marginally reflect my opinions as strained by the language. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Mar 85 20:28:27 pst Message-Id: <8503060428.AA18438@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: pbear!peterb Subject: Re: Lunar Colony One Idea I think somebody must have kicked around is to design a rocket ship to land in as big a piece as possible(aka most mass) and then canniblize it to make your tools and get your raw sources. If one took time when designing this rocket, one could also design parts of tooling machinery INTO the rocket, so when you dismantle the rocket, voila! You have your parts to build a CAT bulldozer, lathe, etc. Still it is a lot of mass to cart around, but If you're gonna do it, go all the way, and then rip up your bridge behind you to build the one in front of you.... Peter Barada ima!pbear!peterb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Mar 85 20:30:35 pst Message-Id: <8503060430.AA18479@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ames!al (Al Globus) Subject: Re: Momentum transfer in light sails > After reading Rick McGeers' description of momentum transfer between > photons and a light sail, it seems to me that all momentum imparted to the > sail must be radial to the sun. Is there any way to impart momentum to the > sail in a tangential direction? Yes. The acceleration is normal to the plane of the sail. Draw the vectors in 2D in a piece of paper with the photon comming in at an angle. Take the vector sums and maintain conservation of momentum in all directions and you'll see what I mean. I wish I could put my Mac drawings on this thing. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Mar 85 20:35:06 pst Message-Id: <8503060435.AA18521@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ssc-vax!bruce (Bruce Stock) Subject: Star Data Posted to Net.sources A reduced version of the Yale Catalog of Bright Stars has been posted to net.sources. The posting consists of 9 data files containing information on about 9000 stars. Data consists of RA (2000), DEC (2000), MAG, COLOR, and PM. There is also a description file with data format and an example extraction program which plots a starmap on a Z-100 monochrome screen in intensity levels. Enjoy. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Mar 85 20:05:36 pst Message-Id: <8503060405.AA18152@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ihlpa!lew (Lew Mammel, Jr.) Subject: Re: photon momentum The discussion of photon momentum in relation to the radiometer reminds me of a PSSC (Physical Sciences Studies Committee) film that I saw in high school. This one featured Gerald? Zacharias of MIT. He showed a radiometer spinning and hypothesized that it was the difference in photon momentum transfer that was driving it. He then did a series of demonstrations with a toy gun, shooting plastic bullets against suspended steel plates, the conclusion of which was that elastic collisions transfered twice the momentum of perfectly inelastic collisions. He then leaned over the radiometer and said, "... so it should spin this way." , pointing his finger in the opposite direction of the actual spin. After a pause he looked up at the camera and deadpanned, "Clearly this is the wrong explanation." After giving the correct explanation, he demonstrated actual photon momentum transfer with an intense beam directed against a bit of metal foil suspended in a high vacuum. I'd have to say this film achieved its point seeing that I remember it so well after 20 years! As subtle an effect as it is, the photon momentum accounts for almost 10% of the pressure at the sun's center - a radiation pressure capable of exploding the earth! (warning - this is my calculation) Lew Mammel, Jr. ihnp4!ihlpa!lew ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Mar 85 20:00:55 pst Message-Id: <8503060400.AA18104@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: petrus!karn Subject: Re: Re: Light Sails It would seem to me that photons reflected off a sail would indeed appear to be shifted in wavelength to an observer watching both the outgoing solar radiation and the reflected radiation. This would be due to the doppler shift caused by the relative motion of the sail with respect to the sun. The effect is equivalent to that which makes a police radar function. Energy is still conserved. Phil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Mar 85 20:58:12 pst Message-Id: <8503060458.AA18786@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: umd5!don Subject: Lunar rock chemistry Is it not true that if one passes an electric current through molten lunar rock, one will get O2 in quantity ? I seem to remember reading this one place or another .. If this is true then the Lunar Explorers will need not carry a ton of atmosphere along with them to the moon !! -Chris Sylvain ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #104 ******************* 07-Mar-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #105 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 105 Today's Topics: Launch Windows Re: SSTO! Re: Launch Windows Re: Light Sails with holes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 6 Mar 85 04:14:02 pst Message-Id: <8503061214.AA19762@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: tellab2!thoth (Marcus Hall) Subject: Launch Windows On some launches which only deployed satellites, I still hear about "launch windows". On a mission that must rendezvous with something already in orbit, there is an obvious launch window. There are also time limits associated with sitting on the pad that I understand, but I sometimes hear about a "launch window" for launching a satellite that is going into geo-synchronous orbit. This doesn't make sense to me, since it seems that launching it an hour later would only result in it reaching its orbit an hour later. Could somebody please enlighten me. Thank you. marcus hall ..!ihnp4!tellab1!tellab2!thoth ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 85 04:15:54 pst Message-Id: <8503061215.AA19799@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: SSTO! > > ...And some > > of the folks pushing this method think that $100/lb is a ridiculously > > high cost to orbit and could be beaten easily. > > It's amazing how cheap any easy things are when they're still on paper (or > in the computer) and you haven't had to make them work yet. Remember > when the shuttle would bring costs down to $500/lb to LEO? I think it > runs around $3,000 and up in actuality. Yup. But remember that the under-$100/lb cost for the scramjet shuttle is also a paper number, and is thus fair game for comparison. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 85 05:44:48 pst Message-Id: <8503061344.AA19990@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: pyramid!zeek (Jim Zeek) Subject: Re: Launch Windows Shuttle launches have windows because if their launching a geo-stationary satelite which orbits over the same spot over earth the have to enter orbit at the right spot over earth. jim zeek @ pyramid technology (pyramid!zeek) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 85 11:56:31 pst Message-Id: <8503061956.AA02190@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Light Sails with holes > Wouldn't holes "significantly smaller than a wavelength of light" also > be significantly smaller than air molecules? Punching holes to reduce > weight sounds like a good idea, but I'm not convinced it would reduce > the drag any. Air molecules are several orders of magnitude smaller than the wavelength of visible light, so it does indeed work. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #105 ******************* 08-Mar-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #106 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 106 Today's Topics: Lunar colonies re: re: launch windows Launch Windows Light sail momentum Re: Launch Windows Re: Moon chemicals/energy storage reflection of photons from a lightsail Launch Windows nearby stars ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Mar 1985 09:07:07-EST From: rachiele@NADC To: space-enthusiasts@mit-mc Subject: Lunar colonies It seems to me that the general game plan should be to plan many landings, weeks apart. Possible the second a week after the first, then every 2 weeks for a while. This would allow for rotation of personnel as well as delivery of oxygen etc. Possibly the first landing could be two or more one-way ships to be cannabilized, the next 10 or so landings would make return trips. Jim Rachiele ------------------------------ Date: 7 Mar 1985 09:27:50-EST From: rachiele@NADC To: space-enthusiasts@mit-mc Subject: re: re: launch windows Wait a minute. That explains why the satalite needs a launch window, not the shuttle itself. The shuttle is in LEO, which is not Geo-sync. So the satalite could be launched from any point, provided the shuttle could acheive the correct orbit, right? Maybe the calculations would be too difficult to do on the fly, and have to be done long beforehand? Jim Rachiele ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 85 12:03:57 CST From: Carl Rosene Subject: Launch Windows To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Cc: tellab2!thoth@rice.ARPA (marcus hall) Message-Id: <479066637.animal@Dione.ARPA> Launch windows for satellite missions come from at least a couple of things: 1) Accompanying experiments or observations (especially astronomical observations or tracking) might have requirements for the orbit. (What portion of the sky is visible during the night etc.) and 2) Satellite deployments typically will have lighting requirements (So that you can you are doing). These lighting requirements are met by seeing that the shuttle's "day" (or "night") sky is over the right portion of the earth. The above considerations lead you to launch windows. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 85 15:37:05 pst Message-Id: <8503072337.AA09170@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: augeri@regina.DEC Sender: decwrl!daemon Subject: Light sail momentum There has been several attempts to derive the momentum imparted to a light sail as a result of impinging photons. I have not yet seen the correct derivation, so here is my contribution. From Einstein's work we know that the energy of the photon is given by: E = hf = hc/l (1) where E = energy, h = Planck's constant, f = frequency, l = wavelength (I use l for lambda), c = speed of light, and f = c/l From this we can derive the formula for the momentum of the photon as: p[p] = E/c = hf/c = h/l (2) where p[p] is the momentum of a photon and the other variables are the same as above Expressing that momentum must be conserved we get: momentum before collision = momentum after collision If we assume that the initial momentum of the sail is 0, then for the system we are discussing we have: photon momentum before collision = photon momentum after collision + sail momentum after collision Just rearranging this equation we get: sail momentum after collision = photon momentum before collision - photon momentum after collision Using some variables to describe this equation we get: p[s,a] = p[p,b] - p[p,a] (3) where the bracketed quantities represent the momentum of the sail after the collision, p[s,a], etc Substituting the relation shown in equation 2 into equation 3 we get: p[s,a] = h/l - h/l' (4) where l is the photon wavelength before the collision and l' is the photon wavelength after the collision Compton's effect is given (without proof) as: dl = l' - l (5a) where dl is the change in wavelength, h = (h/(mc))(1 - cos(z)) (5b) and c are as above, m is the rest mass of the sail, and z is the angle of incidence of the photon (I use parentheses liberally to keep the proper precedence) Assuming that the angle of incidence of the photon is perpendicular to the sail surface (this just simplifies the formula, since the cos(90) = 0) we get: dl = h/(mc) (6) Rearranging equation 5a we get: l' = l + dl (7) Note that we see from equations 6 and 7 that the wavelength of the photon after the collision (l') is longer than the wavelength before the collision (l), therefore, the reflected radiation is red-shifted. Substituting equation 7 into equation 4 we get: p[s,a] = h/l - h/(l + dl) (8) Rearranging equation 8 (left as an exercise) we get: p[s,a] = (h/l)(dl/(l + dl)) (9) Substituting for dl from equation 6 into equation 9, we get for photons hitting the sail at an angle of 90 degrees: p[s,a] = (h/l)(h/(mc))/(l + h/(mc)) (10) The parentheses in equation 10 obscure the result (oh, for a universal terminal that could display equations the way they should be!). Anyway, by rearranging equation 10 (again, left as an exercise), we get what I consider to be a more useful form of the equation: p[s,a] = (h/l)/(mc/(h/l) + 1) (11) There are many ways that equation 11 can be written, but the reason that I think this form of the equation is more useful is that the values we know are the momentum of the incident photons and the mass of the light sail, and what we want to know is expressed directly in terms of those values. Therefore, recalling that the momentum of the photon before the collision is p[p,b] = h/l (see equations 3 and 4), we get for photons hitting the sail at an angle of 90 degrees: p[s,a] = p[p,b]/(mc/p[p,b] + 1) (12) Finally, for any angle z we get: p[s,a] = p[p,b]/(mc/(p[p,b](1 - cos(z))) + 1) (13) I hope that this clears up the matter. Mike Augeri (DEC, Maynard Mass) UUCP: decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-regina!augeri ARPA: augeri%regina.dec@decwrl.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 85 15:44:22 pst Message-Id: <8503072344.AA09289@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Launch Windows I'm not an expert on this, but there are at least two reasons why there are definite launch windows for Clarke ("geostationary") orbit. First, remember that a satellite in that orbit remains over essentially the same spot on the equator. This means that you are not only trying to get the satellite into that orbit, it has to be in the right *place* in that orbit. There are further complications because most of the launch sites are not on the equator, which means that plane changes as well as orbital shape changes are needed. Second, most current satellites do not deploy most of their solar panels until they are in the final orbit, because the support structures are not strong enough to survive orbital maneuvering. This means that the satellites are very short of power while in transit, and the angle of the sun with respect to the solar cells is significant. (Satellites are often not free to turn to get the best angle, due to things like spin stabilization and the directions rocket motors point.) Passing through the Earth's shadow can also be a problem for a power-starved satellite. For these (and probably other) reasons, satellite launches most definitely do have time constraints as well as position constraints. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 85 15:44:59 pst Message-Id: <8503072344.AA09300@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Moon chemicals/energy storage > I wonder if there is free silicon on the moon (pure enough to smelt) > that can be used to produce solar panels. Solar panels need semiconductor-grade silicon, which you aren't going to find in nature anywhere. On the other hand, it's not enormously hard to make if you have the right equipment, and there are plenty of silicate rocks on the moon. > Also are the base chemicals around > that would be useful for making batteries (lead and H2SO4 type of battery or > lithium, or even better: nickel cadium). Lead, nickel, cadmium, maybe. The moon is badly short of hydrogen, and probably sulfur as well. Lithium is a rare metal anywhere, for quite fundamental reasons. Some other things the moon is short of are nitrogen and chlorine, by the way. Both of them rather important to life. One possibility, though, is that there may be frozen volatiles (water, etc.) in some of the lunar polar craters which contain areas that are permanently in shadow. A lunar polar orbiter with remote-sensing gear is what we need to settle this. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 85 23:41:31 pst Message-Id: <8503080741.AA10825@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ihlpa!lew (Lew Mammel, Jr.) Subject: reflection of photons from a lightsail I just spent an inordinate amount of time digging through my "archive" ( a box ) of netnews hardcopy and finally found my article of Oct 1983 on the relativistic lightsail problem. Quoting myself: We can calculate the momentum of the reflected photons in the following way. First, calculate the momentum of the incident photons in the sail frame. Second, reverse the sign of the momentum (reflection from sail which is stationary in this frame.) Third, calculate the momentum of the reflected photons in the rest frame. If p is the initial momentum, these steps yield: 1) gamma*(1-beta)*p /* redshift */ 2) -gamma*(1-beta)*p /* reflect */ 3) -gamma^2*(1-beta)^2*p /* red shift again */ ... this gives delta(v) = 2*p/(1+beta) [end of quote] I went on to evaluate the equation of motion. I found that the time scale of the problem was given by T = (m*c^2) / (2*I * p*c) m = mass of ship p = momentum of photon I = photons per second striking sail ... that is, the rest energy of the ship divided by twice the impinging power. A beam of 1 megawatt/meter2 and a sail of 1 gram/meter2 gives T = 1e8 sec, or about 3 years. My solution gave this table of times required to reach the given speeds: v/c t/T .5 1.065 .9 15.316 .95 43.048 .99 474.26 .999 14917.6 Lew Mammel, Jr. ihnp4!ihlpa!lew ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 85 23:49:35 pst Message-Id: <8503080749.AA10917@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: fisher@dvinci.DEC Sender: decwrl!daemon Subject: Launch Windows From: DVINCI::FISHER 7-MAR-1985 13:42 To: FISHER Subj: net.columbia > ...why are there launch windows for geosync satellites? >> ...they have to be at the right place at the right time to end up >> in the right place over the earth Well, actually there is more to it. If you end up in the wrong place in geosync orbit, it is pretty cheap to move a satellite, as long as you are not in a real big hurry. You just give it a push and let it drift. In general the OPENING of the launch window is usually defined by when the AOA (Abort Once Around) landing site (usually Edwards AFB) will have enough light. Thus try not to launch earlier than one orbit-time before sunrise at EAFB. Another important consideration is that satellites are typically designed for the conditions they will encounter during their operational life, and not a whole lot more. Ex: In operation, many geosync sats spin, and are in sunlight MOST of the time. Thus they are not designed to tolerate darkness very often, and they are not designed to tolerate direct sunlight when they are not rotating. The launch timing is critical (I think typically the window closeing is based on) the sun angles on the satellite while it is climbing to geosync altitude. Aside: I have always been amazed at how fussy and specialized space vehicles are. And you wonder why it costs $millions to keep a space vehicle like Voyager going once it is up there? Someone has to keep monitering the critter to make sure it does not exceed some weird design limitation! Burns UUCP: ... {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dvinci!fisher ARPA: fisher%dvinci.dec@decwrl.ARPA Posted: Thu 7-Mar-1985 13:46 Eastern Standard Time To: rhea::decwrl::"net.columbia" ------------------------------ From: Message-Id: <8503081125.AA29444@cod.ARPA> Date: Thu, 7 Mar 85 09:15:07 PST To: bang!space@mit-mc Subject: nearby stars I've been reading INFO-SPACE for several months now, and I'm not sure if you folks can help, but I'm getting desperate. Here's the story: I'm a contributing editor for BYTE Magazine. During the past few months, I've written a 3-D star map program for the Macintosh. It shows Sol and nearby stars as a cluster viewed from some imaginary point outside. You can reset the origin, view along different axes, scale the display, and filter out stars based on class, count (single/binary/trinary), and distance from the origin. I got my data base from an old SF role-playing game, UNIVERSE (from the now-defunct SPI), which has a nice map of all the star within ~30 ly. of Sol. All well and fine. BYTE wants me to write this program up as an article for the July ("Computers and Space") issue. That's fine, but it causes a few problems. Most users are going to want to have a star list that uses RA/DEC/PAR; the UNIVERSE map has everything converted to a Cartesian grid with 1 unit = 1 ly. No problem; the changes to the program take an hour or two. Now I just need to run to a local university library and get a list of nearby stars. Problem: most references only list the nearest 25 stars, and most of those are based on van de Kamp's 1953 list (stars w/in 5 parsecs). I *do* find Allen's "Astrophysical Quantities" (3rd ed., 1973), which does have the 100 nearest stars; however, the UNIVERSE map has nearly double that number, and the program doesn't look nearly as impressive with the smaller list. Visits to two universities (UCSD, SDSU), both to their libraries and their astronomy departments, yield nothing more except a few passing reference to the "Catalog of Nearby Stars". In the meantime, the first deadline for my article has come and gone, and the managing editor is wondering where my article is. Request: can any of you out there get me a list of the 200 or so (the more the better!) stars nearest Sol? For each system, I need the name, right ascension, declination, and parallax, and the class/subclass/size (all I really care about is dwarf/nodwarf) of the components. For example: ` NamRA: HH MM D MM PAR A B C Sirius 6 43 -16 39 377 A1 dA5 BD +50 10 8 49 42 219 K7 36 Ophiuchi 17 1-26 32 184 K1 K1 K5 and so on. The list does *not* have to be sorted by distance; my program handles that. The "cleaner" and more up-to-date your list, the better. I noticed discrepancies between the different lists I looked at; I would like (as much as possible) to avoid letters saying, "You fool! Don't you know that Sirius is closer than UV Ceti?" If the list has more data (i.e., if you're sending an existing file or even some xeroxed pages), no problem. The key word is SPEED; I needed this last week. Not only will the person or persons providing such a list earn my undying gratitude, but they will also be publicly thanked in the BYTE article and anywhere else I can fit it in. The absolute best way to send it would be to my node address: bang!crash!bwebster@nosc {ihnp4, sdcsvax!bang}!crash!bwebster Other addresses: CompuServe: 75166,1717 M: 138-5892 Fido: Node #87 (619-286-7838, 300/1200 baud) (my own node) USPS: 6215 Thorn St, San Diego, CA 92115 As mentioned above, I have my own bulletin board (Fido #87). If you want to call it directly and download, please do. If you want to save yourself phone charges, call me [voice] at (619) 286-7576, and give me instructiongs on how to call *you*. Many thanks to all; I know this is a large message and isn't adding much to the general discussion (though it perhaps beats out electric guitars in a vacuum and possibly even relativistic ashes). Hope to hear from some of you soon. ..bruce.. Bruce Webster/BYTE Magazine bang!crash!bwebster@nosc {ihnp4, sdcsvax!bang}!crash!bwebster ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #106 ******************* 09-Mar-85 0414 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #107 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 107 Today's Topics: Re: reflection of photons from a lightsail Re: Launch Windows Re: Launch Windows Re: reflection of photons from a lightsail IEEE Book on the Space Station Re: Launch Windows Challenger Missions Scrubbed Re: Launch Windows sail with holes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Mar 85 09:06:15 pst Message-Id: <8503081706.AA00540@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: talcott!gjk (Greg Kuperberg) Subject: Re: reflection of photons from a lightsail It is indeed the case that when light bounces off of a moving mirror/light sail it red shifts. This can be interpreted as follows: Because the light accelerates the craft with a light sail, it transfers some of its energy to the ship. The red shift is precisely this loss of energy. And finally, photons, shmotons---it works just as well with Maxwell's equations. In fact, special relativity predates photons by a decade or two. --- Greg Kuperberg harvard!talcott!gjk "2*x^5-10*x+5=0 is not solvable by radicals." -Evariste Galois. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 85 09:15:55 pst Message-Id: <8503081715.AA00660@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: pbear!peterb Subject: Re: Launch Windows Its not that they have to be at a particular spot to launch a geo-synchronous satellite. They could launch any time and still get to that spot. Rather it is that during the time of the launch window the satellite would have a clear path through the many thousands of objects on its way to geosynchronous orbit. Peter Barada ima!pbear!peterb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 85 09:48:11 pst Message-Id: <8503081748.AA00822@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: utzoo!kcarroll (Kieran A. Carroll) Subject: Re: Launch Windows Henry Spencer mentions that most spinning satellites are not free to orient themselves in the best possible position for receiving solar power through their panels of solar cells while in transfer orbit; this leads to a desire to keep low-earth-to-geosynchronous transfer times as short as possible, so as not to run down the batteries on the spacecraft before geosynchronous orbit is achieved (at which time, all the solar panels can be deployed, and power ceases to be a constraint). Quite true. In case anybody's interested, here's one of the reasons that spacecraft orientation is constrained during the transfer orbit: During transfer, the vehicle must be able to sense it's attitude (ie. its orientation with respect to some inertial reference frame), so that, when it reaches apogee, it'll know in which direction to point its apogee kick motor, to circularize its orbit. The most common way to perform this attitude sensing, for a rotating spacecraft, is with sun-sensors and earth-sensors. These sensors have a limited field of view, and so must be pointed roughly in the direction of the earth or the sun (whichever is applicable) to start with; after that, provided nothing disastrous happens, they'll stay locked on their target. Also, one has to be careful not to allow an earth sensor to face the sun (or the moon, for that matter), or else it might get confused, and the satellite might lose its attitude reference. These requirements translate into a set of constraints as to which direction the satellite's spin axis may point; generally, pointing perpendicularly to the line joining the satellite with the sun is not the best orientation. Thus, the solar cells on the sides of the spacecraft don't face directly towards the sun, and power-collection is restricted. For some missions, the spinning solar cells don't even collect enough power to make up for the housekeeping power drain during transfer orbit; the extra power is drained from batteries on board the satellite (fully charged at launch). The satellite must reach geosynchronous orbit, stop spinning and deploy the rest of its solar cells before the batteries run down. This places a constraint on the amount of time the satellite can spend in transfer orbit. Another problem is maintaining an acceptable temperature range in the satellite during transfer orbit, but I won't go into that right now... There! My spacecraft design class taught me something, after all! -- Kieran A. Carroll @ U of Toronto Aerospace Institute {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!kcarroll ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 85 10:45:57 pst From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) Message-Id: <8503081845.AA18442@ucbkim.ARPA> To: talcott!gjk@harvard.ARPA, space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Re: reflection of photons from a lightsail > In fact, special relativity predates photons by a decade or two. Wrongo. Special relativity and photons (and also, incidentally, a theoretical explanation of Brownian motion which was generally considered to be the clinching argument for the atomic theory) were all introduced by Einstein in the *same issue of the same journal* in his Miracle Year, 1905. Rick. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Mar 1985 13:17:56 EST (Friday) From: Charles Howell Subject: IEEE Book on the Space Station To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC Cc: howell at mitre (Quoting from the Washington / Northern VA Scanner, the monthly publication of the local IEEE...) "IEEE has announced the publication of "The Space Station: An Idea whose Time Has Come". The book is edited by Theodore R. Simpson, Project-leader at the think-tank ANSER. During 1981 he served as an IEEE Congressional Fellow on the Staff of the Senate Subcommittee on Science, Technology, and Space. Through his close association with the space program, Mr. Simpson has assembled the attitudes and opinions of a group of space policy leaders from government, industry, and academia who were directly involved in the decision to build the space station, and who are currently engaged in its development. Authors include President Ronald Reagan; U.S. Senator Howell Heflin, ranking Democrat on the Senate Subcommittee on Science, Technology, and Space; Apollo 17 Astronaut and former U.S. Senator Harrison H. Schmidt; James Beggs, head of NASA; Dr. John H. Gibbons, director of OTA, and many others. [...] Organized into five parts, it first reviews the history of U.S. and Soviet manned space flight. An examination of the political decision to build the space station follows. The third section of "The Space Station" describes the possible and probable designs, uses, and impacts of the space station. And finally, the long term potential of permanently manned exploration of the solar system is discussed, from space industrialization to eventual space colonization. The book is priced at $17.95 for IEEE members and $19.95 for nonmembers, and can be ordered postpaid from the IEEE Service Center, 445 Hoes Lane, Piscataway, NJ 08854. A $2.00 billing charge is added to all non-prepaid orders." I have ordered it, but I don't know anything about the quality. Has anyone out there read this? What did you think? (I should have sent this message off BEFORE shelling out $17.95... oh well.) Chuck Howell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 85 15:35:48 pst From: David Smith Message-Id: <8503082335.AA19352@HP-MARS> To: space%mit-mc@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: Re: Launch Windows Source-Info: From (or Sender) name not authenticated. Another consideration: If the satellite gets put up at the wrong longitude, it takes a while to slew it around. So it is best to put it up at the right longitude if possible. That means the transfer orbit needs to have its apogee at the correct longitude, over the equator. This in turn means that the boost into the transfer orbit must occur 180 degrees from the desired longitude, while crossing the equator. So if the shuttle gets off the pad late, it may need to delay release of the satellite for nearly an extra day. David Smith HP Labs ucbvax!hplabs!dsmith dsmith%hp-labs@csnet-relay ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 85 20:38:52 pst Message-Id: <8503090438.AA04164@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: brunix!alb (Adam Buchsbaum) Subject: Challenger Missions Scrubbed The mission of the space shuttle Challenger has been scrubbed because officials are worried that a timing problem in the TDRS-A satellite, now in orbit, will be duplicated in TDRS-B, now in Challenger's cargo bay. The problem is in the satellite's encryption mechanism, used to code signals sent to and from military shuttle flights. A Canadian communications satellite, also in Challenger's bay, will be moved to Discovery's bay, for a hybrid mission including that satellite and a Navy communications satellite that was scheduled to launch aboard the Discovery on 22 March. That date may move to early April. The retrieval of the LDEF (Long Duration Exposure Facility), which was left in orbit last April and was due to be retrieved by the Discovery crew, will probably be put off until a later mission. NASA will announce this week which crew, the Challenger's or the Discovery's, will fly the Discovery mission, and whether or not Senator Jake Garn will have to wait for another flight. It will also announce the new launch date. Challenger will be moved back to the VAB, where it will await another mission, probably Spacelab-2 in late April. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 85 20:40:38 pst Message-Id: <8503090440.AA04189@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: petrus!karn Subject: Re: Launch Windows > Shuttle launches have windows because if their launching a geo-stationary > satelite which orbits over the same spot over earth the have to enter orbit > at the right spot over earth. Not exactly. As the earth rotates, it carries the "target point" AND the launch site with it, so you could launch at any time and still reach the desired spot by flying the same trajectory. The reason you have "launch windows" for geostationary missions is because the spacecraft must be pointed in a different direction during the orbit maneuvers and the climb to geostationary altitude, and the resulting sun angles may be unacceptable if the launch were to take place at certain times. Depending on the mission, there may be additional constraints on launch time. In a rendezvous mission you must launch as the launch site passes through the orbital plane of the target. There may be sunlight and visibility requirements at various places (at emergency landing sites for the shuttle, at observation targets for weather and spy satellites, landing sites on the moon, etc) which all combine to produce a set of acceptable launch times. Phil Karn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 85 23:42:16 pst Message-Id: <8503090742.AA04834@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: npois!jay (Anton Winteroak) Subject: sail with holes The largest atoms are about 0.3 nanometers in diameter, hydrogen (by far the most common) is about 0.1 nm. About the shortest wavelength of light that comes out of the sun in quantity is about 90 nanometers. Besides anything much higher energy than that would go through a micron of aluminum nearly untouched. Visable light is more like 300 to 700 nanometers. Clearly holes under a quarter wave length could work to reduce weight and drag, while not altering reflectiveness much. I have trouble imagining the process by which this stuff is made. How could a few square miles of this stuff be cheap ? ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #107 ******************* 10-Mar-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #108 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 108 Today's Topics: Re: Lunar colonies Re: Launch Windows Nearby vs. bright stars Rollback drilling small holes in solar sails Re: Lunar colonies LEO habitat ideas... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 9 Mar 85 04:32:33 pst Message-Id: <8503091232.AA05824@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: haddock!stevel Subject: Re: Lunar colonies > This would allow for rotation of personnel as well as delivery > of oxygen etc. Your going to rotate personel????? How long do you expect people to stay up there. At the cost of training and sending them up I would expect at least a three month tour of duty, more likely six months. Now for the off the cuff calculation. 3 Days transit time * 2 people * 26 times per year = 156 man days wasted In sending people back, not to mention all the payload lost due to having to carry the people, fuel and oxygen. Better to send plants and nitrate to make oxygen on the moon. The faster a moon colony is self sufficient the better chance of it surviving. Steve Ludlum, decvax!yale-co!ima!stevel, {ihnp4|cbosgd}!ima!stevel ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Mar 85 04:31:53 pst Message-Id: <8503091231.AA05813@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: haddock!stevel Subject: Re: Launch Windows There are telemetry and tracking considerations as well as orbital insertion considerations. They like to deploy satilites so that they are talking to ground stations just before and just after burn. Sometimes I have read that the time is set so it can be optically tracked by telescope. For the India Palapa B I belive it the burn was to take place over India shortly after sunrise because of the above considerations. Sketchilly yours Steve Ludlum, decvax!yale-co!ima!stevel, {ihnp4!cbosgd}!ima!stevel ------------------------------ From: Message-Id: <8503091828.AA00283@cod.ARPA> Date: Fri, 8 Mar 85 22:47:50 PST To: bang!space@mit-mc Subject: Nearby vs. bright stars Cc: bang!walter.smith@cmu-cs-k, bang!tim@uci, bang!taw@mordor, bang!schmidt@sumex-aim I've already received speedy replies from Walter Smith, Tim Shimeall, Tom Wadlow, and Christopher Schmidt. Many, many thanks, guys. Unfortunately, they were all pointing me at the Yale Catalog of Bright Stars. This is *not* a good source for nearby stars. Why? Because this catalog lists the *brightest* stars in the sky, which (with a few exceptions) are not the nearest. The Bright Stars catalog is heavily biased towards O/B/A/F-class stars, big bright ones that are usually dozens (if not hundreds) of light years away. The majority of stars within, say, 30 light years of Sol are dim, red (M-class) stars, which will never make it on anyone's bright star list. True, there *is* some overlap--Sirius tends to be right up there--but very few of the nearby stars make it onto a "bright stars" list. Besides, from what I can see, the Yale Catalog doesn't have the info there that I am most interested in: good, common names for the stars. Most of the stars within 30 ly or so have "real" names (Sigma Draconis, Keid, Wolf 359), or at least the designation from some major catalog (BD +50, CD -44). The Yale list as described by the folks above doesn't have any of that. By the way, I will cheerfully post my program when I'm done with it. I can continue to tweak for a while, because the program won't be listed in the BYTE article; instead, it'll be on the BYTENet listings BBS. It's written in MacAdvantage, a UCSD Pascal compiler that runs under the Finder and has access to most the Toolbox routines. It shouldn't be terribly hard to convert it to Lisa Pascal or even one of the many C compilers. It would be interesting to see what modifications this group might come up with. I've considered adding proper motion info to the data structure and allowing the user to move forward and backward in time...but that's not a very high priority right now. Once again, my thanks to Walter, Tim, Tom, Christopher, and the other who I know will send me similar messages about the Yale catalog. Maybe we can get something decent out of this yet. ..bruce.. Bruce Webster/BYTE Magazine bang!crash!bwebster@nosc {ihnp4, sdcsvax!bang}!crash!bwebster voice: (619) 286-7576 data: (619) 286-7838 [300/1200 baud] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Mar 85 11:34:36 pst Message-Id: <8503091934.AA06749@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: brunix!alb (Adam Buchsbaum) Subject: Rollback Challenger was rolled off the launch pad and back to the VAB, only the third time a shuttle has been rolled back from the pad and the fifth time any American rocket has been removed from a launch pad before launch, yesterday. Discovery is due to be rolled to the pad about 15 March, and NASA is hoping to launch it on a hybrid mission by the 29th. The agency expects to pick a date and crew for the mission by tomorrow or Friday. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 1985 1142-PST From: Richard M. King Subject: drilling small holes in solar sails To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA A hexagonal array of holes is exactly the interference pattern of three mutually coherent light sources an infinite distance away from the surface and located at the corners of an equilateral triangle. The holes do not have to be accurately placed so there is no need for the light sources to be an infinite distance away. The wavelenght of the light throwing the interference pattern does have to be no larger than comparable to the desired holes, however. We should use an Eximer UV laser as a pilot beam to keep three more coherent, and fire a very short, high energy trio of beams onto the surface. The power has to be enough to vaporize the surface exactly where we have triply constructuve interference, and the beam has to be a short pulse for two reasons; to stop the various parts from moving during the blast, and to prevent heat from the holes from spreading. The pulse length constraint probably makes it impossible to do a large area at one time. I haven't worked any numbers, but a 1-meter diameter area seems about right to be able to deliver enough energy, to be able to have a short enough pulse, and to have the transmission apparatus a reasonable size. It is possible to "expose" lots of separate areas. Unexposed areas between the exposed ones do little harm. Dick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Mar 85 19:29:48 pst Message-Id: <8503100329.AA08216@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: pbear!peterb Subject: Re: Lunar colonies Sure you can get two one way ships there and then cannabalize them, but lets be serious now. I know of no facility capable of launching a space vehicle large enough to get to the moon other than JFK. There I don't think they can handle two week launch times. Especially for something that big. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Mar 85 19:30:08 pst Message-Id: <8503100330.AA08233@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: pbear!peterb Subject: LEO habitat ideas... Does anybody have any data regarding the weights and measures of a Saturn V rocket? I have a pet project I have been kicking around in my head for a while. I presume(probably wrong) that some of the booster sections of the saturn V rocket are still kicking around in mothballs. What would happen if you took just the booster, fitted it with some solid rokect boosters, an areodynamic nose and launched it. I am trying to work out the numbers regarding whether or not it can reach LEO, but I don't have the numbers or the right equations. With time and help I'll get both. Here is a rather large hollow object with two perfectly good airsealed chambers. If I remember right, the booster was something like 100 to 200 feet long. It also contains some LOX and Liquid hydrogren. I am assuming that boosters shut down when thrust drops off, rather than burn to exhausted. Still there would be some unusable fuel in this thing, and with the shuttle able to bring up some tools and personnel, I think it would not take much to convert it into a usable habitat. It would contain two of the basic requirements needed. It gives shelter, and it has air (well pure O2). Once some fittings are attached (such as an airlock, solar cells, radio positioning gear, computers) then the roughnecks would have a spartan but usable living quarters. If you put up a few of these objects then you can use one as a "dry dock" where sattelites can be repaired, another can be used for agriculture, another for implementation of space industries. I don't think that this idea is the greatest, but I do think its feasible (if the critters can be placed in orbit!) I would love to see some people kick the idea around on the net. We could work out some of the kinks in this crazy idea. Who knows, it might become a reality. (oh wouldn't that be a rush!) Peter Barada ima!pbear!peterb I love mail and responses, I hope to see both. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #108 ******************* 11-Mar-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #109 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 109 Today's Topics: Re: Lunar rock chemistry Watering the Deserts with Seawater Saturn Vs in mothballs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Mar 85 01:38:21 pst Message-Id: <8503100938.AA09155@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ames!eugene (Eugene Miya) Subject: Re: Lunar rock chemistry > Is it not true that if one passes an electric current through molten lunar > rock, one will get O2 in quantity ? I seem to remember reading this one > place or another .. If this is true then the Lunar Explorers will need not > carry a ton of atmosphere along with them to the moon !! > > -Chris Sylvain You must have seen Robinson Crusoe on Mars. I have a lump of anorthosite (sp) which is the material lunar astronauts practiced with to learn lunar planetary science. It does not appear to me that it would release O2 if it were or weren't molten. You would have to carry some incredible resources to raise the heat and the electricity. 2 langleys of solar energy is not a very great energy flux to make large quantites of O2. Plants located at the lunar poles suffer from angular geometric effects: you would have to build huge tower collectors which would have to rotate to follow the sun in a 28 day period. [This latter point for other postings.] A break even point ala fusion is a third consideration even if it were possible to release the O2. A separate note: on hybrid hypersonic transport engines for cheaper orbital costs. I have been reading about major areas of aerodynamic research. These complex engines are needed because they are crossing three flight realms: subsonic, supersonic and hypersonic. The turbine system which we have lots of experience can cover the first two realms. It turns out turbine engines are unable to hold a JP fuel flame much beyond mach 3. Enter a ram jet engine: not efficient at the lower speeds, but with hydrogen as fuel, it might be efficient in this realm. Not much experience with elaborate engines like this. The complexity might make two or more sets of engines better; then there are economic considerations for producing such a vehicle. --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,vortex}!ames!aurora!eugene emiya@ames-vmsb.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Mar 85 04:11:44 pst Message-Id: <8503101211.AA09689@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: dartvax!chuck (Chuck Simmons) Subject: Watering the Deserts with Seawater As, far as I know, this question has nothing to do with space. But I don't know where else to turn. A couple of us were sitting around shooting the breeze, and started talking about how one would go about extracting water from seawater. Basically, I claimed that since one did not hear about large plants turning seawater into water and making deserts into oases, that it was either technolgically infeasible, or it simply cost too much money to build a plant large enough to produce the river of water that would be needed. The person I was arguing with claimed that building such a plant would be real easy and proceeded to describe a still to me. So I thought I would bring some of my questions to the newsgroup which had been discussing light sails with such clarity and enthusiasm. Here are some questions: How much water would one want to extract from the ocean on a daily basis to irrigate some reasonably large tract of land? How much fresh water could be produced on a daily basis by setting up an evaporation tank a few acres in size and then putting some sort of glass or plastic roof above the tank on which the water could condense? What kinds of problems do folk run into when they try to build desalinization plants? What sorts of designs are used in building desalinization plants? Thanks for any comments you may send my way via either Mail or this newsgroup. And if you feel the subject is more appropriate for some other newsgroup, by all means, switch newsgroups. Or, just to give these querys some justification for being on this newsgroup, we could suppose we are trying to build a desalinization plant on the 4th planet out from Alpha Centauri which is known to be 99% covered by ocean. Also, feel free to mention schemes such as towing icebergs from one of the poles to an African or Californian port (or whatever the Alpha Centauri IV equivalents are). chuck_simmons%d1@dartvax ------------------------------ From: Message-Id: <8503110126.AA11527@cod.ARPA> Date: Sun, 10 Mar 85 15:00:39 PST To: bang!ima!pbear!peterb@Nosc Subject: Saturn Vs in mothballs Cc: bang!space@mit-mc Peter - > I presume(probably wrong) that some of the booster sections of > the saturn V rocket are still kicking around in mothballs. You presume correctly. Three Saturn Vs were built (for Apollos 18, 19, and 20) and never used. One is on display (on its side) at the Johnson Space Center, and I believe the other two are at Kennedy and Huntsville. I might question the structural integrity, though, after 15 years of sitting around outside. ..bruce webster.. bang!crash!bwebster@nosc {ihnp4, sdcsvax!bang}!crash!bwebster ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Mar 85 17:57:07 est From: Tony Guzzi To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Peter B., Your two notes in Issue #108 have me a bit confused? Your first message says: > Sure you can get two one way ships there and then cannabalize them, > but lets be serious now. I know of no facility capable of launching a space > vehicle large enough to get to the moon other than JFK. There I don't think > they can handle two week launch times. Especially for something > that big. Then you talk about: > What would happen if you took just the booster, fitted it with some > solid rokect boosters, an areodynamic nose and launched it. I am trying to > work out the numbers regarding whether or not it can reach LEO, .... > .... Here is a rather large hollow object with two perfectly good > airsealed chambers. If I remember right, the booster was something like 100 > to 200 feet long. It also contains some LOX and Liquid hydrogren. I am > assuming that boosters shut down when thrust drops off, rather than burn to > exhausted. Still there would be some unusable fuel in this thing, and with > the shuttle able to bring up some tools and personnel, I think it would not > take much to convert it into a usable habitat. ..... > .... It would contain two of the basic requirements needed. It gives > shelter, and it has air (well pure O2). Once some fittings are attached > (such as an airlock, solar cells, radio positioning gear, computers) then > the roughnecks would have a spartan but usable living quarters. If you put > up a few of these objects then you can use one as a "dry dock" where > sattelites can be repaired, another can be used for agriculture, another for > implementation of space industries. First, who said that the ships to the Moon would have to be launched from the ground? As long as your building what amounts to space stations in LEO (Low Earth Orbit) to be used "as a `dry dock' where satellites can be repaired, .... for agriculture, (and) for implementation of space industries.", why not include space-ship building in your "space industries" and make them true "dry docks". Also, why use Saturn V boosters for these stations when the shuttle has a disposable fuel tank that is (or should be) just as air-tight and also has two tanks (1 for liquid hygrogen and another for LOX). I admit they are smaller then a Saturn V booster but if Nasa can keep to a 66% rate of yearly launches, that means we could have around 8 or so of these tanks left in LEO each year for use in both building these stations AND in building the ships to the moon. We may even do the "outrageous" thing of using a fuel tank AS a fuel take on a future flight to the moon. This would of course require the adding of boosters the the shuttle's fuel tank to get it high enough so as to say in orbit and not burn up in the atmosphere. I believe there is some research being done in this area. As long as we are salvaging shuttle fuel tanks, why not try to salvage the spent boosters of one-shot rockets that may still be in orbit. This would give us "raw" materials to be either cannabalized or melted down (using solar furnaces that would have to be built up there or brought up) to be used in the making of the stations or the the moon ship. The finding of these pieces of space "junk" should not be hard. I'm not sure which it is, but I know that either S.A.C. or N.O.A.D. tracks all trackable objects in orbit and knows what is what. This would do a number of things for us. First, it would allow us to keep LEO and possible geosynchronous orbit clean of debris. Second, since the gravitational force on the ship would be less in oribt that it would be on the ground, it should require less effort (hence, less fuel) to get from Earth to the Moon. Third, the ship would not have to be aerodynamically sound since it would be operating in a vacuum. The designers would be able to leave out any unnecessary structures, such as coverings that in the past had no function other than to make the rocket areodynamically sound. It would also allow the designers to make the rocket look as "weird" as they want (i.e. bulges in strange places, odd-looking framework, etc.) just as long as the kinematics of the ship are well understood for control reasons. This would allow lunarbase-needed equipment to be "built-in" easier. Tony Guzzi ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #109 ******************* 12-Mar-85 0351 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #110 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 110 Today's Topics: Challenger Crew to Fly Discovery Saturn V's gathering dust Re: Re: Lunar rock chemistry bright vs. nearby stars Sail on, Silver Bird! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 85 11:43:22 pst Message-Id: <8503111943.AA15484@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: brunix!alb (Adam Buchsbaum) Subject: Challenger Crew to Fly Discovery The crew of the cancelled Challenger mission, including Senator Jake Garn, with the exception of the French astronaut Patrik Baudry, will fly the hybrid Discovery mission later this month. The Discovery crew will be reassigned, probably to whatever mission will now pick up LDEF, which was remoed from Discovery's flight plan with the cancellation of the Challenger mission. Baudry has been assigned to a seven-day flight in June. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 85 16:08:57 EST From: Joe Pistritto To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Saturn V's gathering dust Actually, I think that the last space capable Saturn V was used to orbit the Skylab. I seem to remember that there were three built and unused, one was used as a static display at either Kennedy or Huntsville, one was used to orbit Skylab, and I seem to remember the other was defective (although I could be wrong). Does anyone know where that third booster went? -JCP- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 85 15:42:38 pst Message-Id: <8503112342.AA17044@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: umd5!don Subject: Re: Re: Lunar rock chemistry >> Is it not true that if one passes an electric current through molten lunar >> rock, one will get O2 in quantity ? >> .. If this is true then the Lunar Explorers will need not >> carry a ton of atmosphere along with them to the moon !! >> > > You must have seen Robinson Crusoe on Mars. > I have a lump of anorthosite (sp) which is the material lunar astronauts > practiced with to learn lunar planetary science. It does not appear to > me that it would release O2 if it were or weren't molten. You would have > to carry some incredible resources to raise the heat and the electricity. > 2 langleys of solar energy is not a very great energy flux to make large > quantites of O2. > A break even point ala fusion is a third consideration even if it were > possible to release the O2. > > --eugene miya > NASA Ames Research Center [] As a matter of fact, I haven't seen "Robinson Crusoe on Mars". Is it a classic ? I read the finding in an otherwise reputable science magazine -- Science News, Science Digest, or something of that ilk. I can't be too precise on which one in particular since I think it has been about four years since the article appeared. No, I DO NOT read the National Enquirer, if that is what you are thinking!! When I say O2 in quantity, I do not mean that one suddenly gets weather balloon filling amounts -- Presto! Rather, nothing magic about it at all. The idea is like sticking two electrodes in water .. Of course the Explorers will need to bring some atmosphere along with them, but as their needs expand this would be a method to save the cost of shipping them the raw materials they will need. Given they can produce electricity 2 weeks out of four(solar cells), and can focus the sun with a mirror(enough heat to aquire 50mL or so of molten rock or molten soil, wouldn't you agree?) what prevents the possibility of obtaining O2 by electrolysis ? What's the chemical composition of the stuff anyway ? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ When the EPA says, "Get the lead out!", what do they REALLY mean ? ------------------------------------------------------------------ -Chris Sylvain ARPA: don@umd5.ARPA CSNET: don@umd5 UUCP: {seismo, rlgvax, allegra, brl-bmd, nrl-css}!umcp-cs!cvl!umd5!don ------------------------------ From: Message-Id: <8503120128.AA23814@cod.ARPA> Date: Mon, 11 Mar 85 11:20:06 PST To: bang!philabs!v1!josh@Nosc Subject: bright vs. nearby stars Cc: bang!space@mit-mc Josh - Please tell me you didn't key in that whole list yourself! If you did, then I'm really going to feel bad. I'm afraid that the list doesn't help all that much, at least not for the nearby stars. Case in point: the list I am currently working with (100 nearest stars, from Allen's "Astrophysical Quantities") deals entirely with stars with a parallax <= 0.155. The list you sent only had seven stars in that same region, all of which I already had. Actually, I feel so bad about not being able to use the lists send by you and by Mike Caplinger that I'm going to put together and post a "bright stars" list as well. Hell, that's all that astronomers are interested in (to judge by the predominance of bright star lists), so I might as well include it. Your work isn't going entirely to waste, but I still feel bad. To the rest of INFO-SPACE: Many thanks for the reponses I've received, but *please* don't try to extract a nearby stars list from a bright stars list. It just isn't worth the effort. I know that a publication entitled "Catalog of Nearby Stars" exists; I've seen references to it in bibliographies. The question is, *where* is it? If any of you know, please let me know. Thanks. ..bruce.. Bruce Webster/BYTE Magazine bang!crash!bwebster@nosc {ihnp4, sdcsvax!bang}!crash!bwebster ------------------------------ Date: Mon 11 Mar 85 22:31:19-EST From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Sail on, Silver Bird! To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA Most of the information about light sails has been said, but you might like a short summary of how to get around with them. First, the propulsive force is created almost entirely by the reflection of light from the sail. Assuming perfect reflection, this force is normal to the sail (by Heron's law), and can to a good first approximation be calculated classically. Secondly, a sailship in the vicinity of a star can use two forces: gravity, directed always radially towards the star, and light, directed normally to the sail, but of course never towards the light source (the star). Whenever you have two forces acting in different directions, you can tack. If you can tack, you can go anywhere. Consider a typical initial state, of a ship in circular orbit, counterclockwise when viewed from local North, oriented in the direction of motion, ie with the star on the port beam. Do nothing; keep those sails furled; by Newton's First Law you will remain in stable orbit. Now unfurl the sails perpendicular to the ship, ie deployed port - starboard. Nothing happens, for the simple reason that the sail is edge-on to the light. So deploy the sail fore and aft, and the light will exert a force directly outward from the star. This pushes you away; unfortunately you gain potential energy but not angular momentum, so your orbit becomes elliptical, with a greater apastron distance but shorter periastron distance. Now cant the sail so the force is away and forward - away from the star and forward round the orbit. The sail now stretches from port bow to starboard quarter. The light force will give you both potential energy and angular momentum; with the correct angle you will move away from the star in a smooth Archimedean spiral. Please note that it is NOT necessary for your craft to be light enough, or big enough, for radiation pressure to overcome gravitation. Any extra force will move you away from the star, in time. Note also that a sail configuration that works close in will also work far out (in the classical approximation) since both forces weaken equally with distance. Finally, the manoeuvre that separates the women from the girls - moving to an INNER orbit. You cannot do that just by canting the sail the other way. Remember that every configuration has a component away from the star, that tries to increase potential energy. Three steps are necessary. First, deploy the sail so as to reduce angular momentum, ie starboard bow - port quarter. There will be an inevitable outward thrust also. Secondly, wait. Your orbit will have become elliptical, and you will gradually fall towards the star, trading potential for kinetic energy. Finally, near periastron, deploy the sails again, similarly. The light force will push you away, but also reduce your angular momentum; if all has gone well, you will be in a circular orbit closer than before. If you made a mistake, your sails melt. Unfortunately, there are some technical difficulties. Those sails are BIG, and moving them around is not easy. Moreover, when you are close to a star, there are gravitational tidal effects that cannot be ignored. If you doubt that, go to the seacoast of your choice and watch the water slosh about! Many proposed sail designs (eg "aluminised nothing") would tear apart even in Earth-Trojan orbit. Robert Firth ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #110 ******************* 13-Mar-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #111 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 111 Today's Topics: Re: nearby stars Surplus Saturn-V's Falling bucket delays launch\! Re: sail with holes Re: LEO habitat ideas... Re: Lunar Colony re: re: launch windows Private Space Companies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 85 09:31:08 pst Message-Id: <8503121731.AA20729@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: utastro!ethan (Ethan Vishniac) Subject: Re: nearby stars [] Bruce, I'm sorry to put this in the net, but I'm not sure how to get mail to you dependably. I looked up the Catalog of Nearby Stars and came up empty. There are catalogs of stars with large proper motions (angular motion on the sky) which must be predominantly nearby stars. I didn't find any that included distance estimates. The closest I came was a catalog published as a Royal Observatory Bulletin (Vol 51) which gives spatial velocities for some 3483 stars. This catalog necessarily includes distance estimates, most of which are based on spectral classification rather than a measured parallax. If you can find the catalog then column VIII gives the distance modulus. This is related to distance by Distance (in tens of parsecs) = 10^^(0.2*distance modulus) The catalog was compiled by Olin Eggin. I hope this helps. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 85 19:43:34 pst Message-Id: <8503130343.AA25317@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: hughes@godzla.DEC (From the terminal of the Great Locksley Mendoza) Sender: decwrl!daemon Subject: Surplus Saturn-V's As I recall, there are no flight worthy Saturn-V's in storage anywhere. There are a couple on display (KSC, Huntsville?, one of these may be a boilerplate) and one was used to launch Skylab. I can dig up the dimensions if anyone still wants them. Gary Hughes UUCP: ...{ decvax | allegra | ucbvax }!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mother!hughes ...!dec-godzla!hughes ARPA: hughes%mother.DEC @decwrl.ARPA hughes%godzla.DEC @decwrl.ARPA reality?: DEC, ZKO1-2/C07, 110 Spit Brook Rd, Nashua NH 03062 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 85 19:50:43 pst Message-Id: <8503130350.AA25425@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ahutb!ecl (ecl) Subject: Falling bucket delays launch\! I just heard on the 11 o'clock news that someone dropped a bucket on the space shuttle, damaging some of the tiles. Launch will be postponed until the damage can be evaluated and repaired. They can launch this thing into outer space, but it's damaged by a falling bucket!? That's about as believable as someone orbiting the Earth, and then slipping in his shower... no, on second thought, forget it. :-) Evelyn C. Leeper Note temporary kluge for new address => ...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ahutb!ecl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 85 19:53:09 pst Message-Id: <8503130353.AA25454@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: sail with holes > Clearly holes under a quarter wave length could work to reduce > weight and drag, while not altering reflectiveness much. I have trouble > imagining the process by which this stuff is made. How could a few square > miles of this stuff be cheap ? That's precisely the hard part. Ultrathin aluminum is not hard to make by vapor deposition in vacuum, but punching lots of submicroscopic holes in it isn't simple. Perhaps a photolithographic process like that used in ICs, using shortwave ultraviolet so the holes are small by visible-light standards? But how to make it fast and cheap...? -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 85 21:04:28 pst Message-Id: <8503130504.AA25930@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ames!al (Al Globus) Subject: Re: LEO habitat ideas... > > Does anybody have any data regarding the weights and measures of > a Saturn V rocket? I have a pet project I have been kicking around in my > head for a while. > > I presume(probably wrong) that some of the booster sections of > the saturn V rocket are still kicking around in mothballs. > I think you're wrong - but there is a functional equivalent, and there's lots of them. The shuttle external tank. It turns out that you can take the tank into low Earth orbit and GAIN payload mass (about 2000 lb I think). This is due to the manuvering necessary to land the tank in an ocean rather than on some unsuspecting city. The tank is very large and quite air tight. There have been some studies on using tanks and even some space station proposals using them. The problem, of course, is that you need manufacturing capability to turn the tanks into anything useful. I.e., you need the space station before you can make extensive use of the tanks. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 85 21:03:50 pst Message-Id: <8503130503.AA25915@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ames!al (Al Globus) Subject: Re: Lunar Colony > Forget draging the farmtools and small hand tools up with you > (after the first batch - and even they are optional). A good > smith given reasonable ore and smelting facilities can make > an astounding number of tools. And, I imagin, produce an astounding amount of atmospheric pollution. Since the available atmosphere is very small, you cannot disperse things into it. EVERY byproduct of your processes must be dealt with. The basic idea is very good though. Bring tools that make tools. There was a study some time ago that identified a few dozen tools that could be used to make almost any other industrial or agricultural tool. Unfortunately, I can't remember where the study came from. I think the California Space Institute had something to do with it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 85 21:04:11 pst Message-Id: <8503130504.AA25923@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ames!al (Al Globus) Subject: re: re: launch windows > > Wait a minute. That explains why the satalite needs a launch window, not > the shuttle itself. The shuttle is in LEO, which is not Geo-sync. So the > satalite could be launched from any point, provided the shuttle could acheive > the correct orbit, right? Maybe the calculations would be too difficult to > do on the fly, and have to be done long beforehand? > Jim Rachiele I'm not sure where this started, but there are a number of launch constraints that I know of. Some are: To get a satellite from shuttle orbit you must start your burn when the shuttle orbit crosses the plane of the equator. This only happens twice per orbit. This 'node crossing' must occur in the correct place to get the satellite to the right place in geo-sync. It's possible to drift a satellite around in geo-sync, but the initial location must be within line of site of a ground control station for check-out. Most satellites have thermal constraints that require launch from the shuttle on the dark or light side, but not either. There are constraints on the shuttle due to various abort options. E.g., there must be sufficient light at the Dakar runway used for some contigencies. I'm sure there are plenty of other constraints. When it comes down to actually getting a satellite into orbit, it's amazing how complicated things become. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 85 21:10:37 pst Message-Id: <8503130510.AA25998@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: osu-eddie!dcc (Daniel C. Chang) Subject: Private Space Companies Does anyone have any current information about private enterprise companies in space, such as SSI or Starstruck? Daniel Chang dcc@osu-eddie ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #111 ******************* 14-Mar-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #112 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 112 Today's Topics: Launch Windows Musical Shuttle Re: Launch Windows Funny units in SF book List of nearby stars O2 from lunar rock ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Mar 85 04:10:54 pst Message-Id: <8503131210.AA27634@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: fisher@dvinci.DEC Sender: decwrl!daemon Subject: Launch Windows > ...the comsat uses batteries until it can reach geo, stop spinning, and > unfold its solar panels This may be true for some of them (the stop spinning and unfold part), but the ones I know about are either 3-axis stabilized and don't spin at all (like TDRSS) or are spin stabilized and spin during their entire life (like Palapa and Westar). I don't think this invalidates any of the other stuff about sun sensors, etc, since a spinning satellite would still have lots of constraints. For example, stuff that can't spin must either be mounted on the satellite's spin axis, or on a "despun" section, which itself must be attached to the satellite on the spin axis. Not to mention mass being distributed evenly around the cicumfrance, fuel having to drain evenly. AND...it must be pretty hard to change the attitude of a spinning satellite, so you want to do that as little as possible. What a pain! With all that, I wonder why the launch window is so wide! Burns UUCP: ... {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dvinci!fisher ARPA: fisher%dvinci.dec@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 85 07:32:51 pst Message-Id: <8503131532.AA28307@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: brunix!alb (Adam Buchsbaum) Subject: Musical Shuttle NASA is considering giving the hybrid mission that was to have flown aboard Discovery back to the Challenger, in the wake of the bucket accident last week. If Discovery, which now has two big gashes in its left cargo bay door, is to be repaired and flown, it will probably mean a launch somewhere around 19 April. If Challenger is used, it could be ready a few days before then. If the mission is switched back, Charles Walker, the only Discovery crew member to remain on the hybrid mission, would probably be dropped and reassigned, and Patrick Baudret, from the original Challenger crew, would be added. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 85 07:38:04 pst Message-Id: <8503131538.AA28366@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: umn-cs!atchison Subject: Re: Launch Windows One of the big factors which effects the launch window is the gyroscopes. At some point in the launch countdown (I don't know exactly when it is), they set the on board gyroscopes. Once these are set, the launch must occur at a specific time within a couple hours (?) or so. The reason for this is because the earth is rotating which continuously changes the gyroscope settings. This is the basis of the launch window. If they cannot launch within this time, they must cycle the countdown back to some point before the time the gyroscopes are set and start over again. This is just one of the many things that, once started, must finish at a predescribed time period. Other factors include fueling. Once they send in the liquid hydrogen/oxygen, they must launch within a particular time period. There are many examples of these types of things. The closer the time to launch, the smaller the launch window becomes as more and more critical (time dependant) things are accomplished. If these time dependancies are not met, the count must be stopped and cycled back to some previous point in time and continued from their. As an interesting example, when the count reaches about T-3seconds, the onboard computer takes over. At some point past this (I don't know the exact time), the launch window is only a few milliseconds long. If they (the computer) must delay the launch longer than a few milliseconds, the launch must be aborted until much later. This happened with the first shuttle launch, the computer stopped the launch at T-3seconds, and it was stopped longer than possible and they had to recycle the launch. In that example, they had to cycle back, I believe, 3 days. ------------------------------ From: Pavel.PA@XEROX.ARPA Date: 13 Mar 85 12:39:17 PST Subject: Funny units in SF book To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: Pavel.PA@XEROX.ARPA In ``Code of the Lifemaker''by James P. Hogan, there is the following partial paragraph: ``In comparing the effectiveness of various ways of imparting momentum to a projectile, physicists employ the concept of `impulse', which is given by the product of the force acting on the projectile and the time for which it acts. In the case of spacecraft, a key indicator of performance is the impulse per unit vehicle mass, or `specific impulse,' which is measured in units of time and usually expressed in seconds.'' This has me confused. It seems to me from my ancient high school physics that force is measured in units of (mass * distance / time^2). Impulse is therefore in units of (mass * distance / time) and specific impulse in units of (distance / time) which is a lot like velocity, no? Where did the extra factor of (time^2 / distance) come from? I realise that this may not be entirely appropriate for this list, but I can tell there are a lot of armchair physicists out there whose knowledge I would like to tap. Thanks, Pavel Curtis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 85 06:30 PST From: TERRY%SAV@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: List of nearby stars To: SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA This is in reply to the person who wanted a list of nearby stars (Bruce Webster?); I have lost the address. Oh, to be in Tucson again, THE astronomy school. I could have scared up the catalog easily; I thought sure someone else would. Anyway, I'll hit a library or two here in San Diego. In the meantime, I have a list of 35 nearby stars, compiled by Peter Van de Kamp in 1945. No RA and DEC, but I can get that else- where. It does have absolute and apparent magnitudes, spectral class- ification, proper motion, distance and luminosity. I know it is old, and I can understand that you'd want the latest data to fend off nitpickers, and I think you wanted 100 of them. But, if it will help, I'll key it in, get the positions (epoch 1950.0; I'm not sure I can scare up 2000.0 positions really fast), and ship it to you. Reply to TERRY%LAJ.SAINET.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA and give me your full mail address (I think you were "@NOSC"; is that an ARPANET node?). Terry ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 85 23:34:52 EST From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: O2 from lunar rock To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A O2 can be released by melting the rocks and passing a current through them. The technique is a spin off of the Aluminum industry; in fact the most recent work was down at Alcoa by Dr. Noel Jarret. They were working on a type of smelter called a binary cell. As you raise the voltage, you select which metal will come off next. This allows taking the Aluminum, Iron and Titanium individually instead of attempting to seperate them later, or by some density criteria. The problem is that the electrodes do not last very long; the environment is incredibly caustic and eats the hell out of them. There was good progress towards reasonable lifespans, but I believe the work was dropped. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #112 ******************* 15-Mar-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #113 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 113 Today's Topics: Discvoery to be Repaired, Flown 1983 TB Re: Funny units in SF book Nearby stars revisited oh, where, oh, where have those little stars gone? re: launch windows ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 Mar 85 07:52:33 pst Message-Id: <8503141552.AA05517@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: brunix!alb (Adam Buchsbaum) Subject: Discvoery to be Repaired, Flown NASA said yesterday that it will take a week to ten days to repair the damage done to Discovery and that Discovery will definitely fly the hybrid mission, launching sometime in April. Last week, a 2500 pound bucket fell onto the Discovery, putting two holes in the graphite-epoxy honeycomb structure of the left cargo bay door; fortunately, there was no damage done to the frame of the door. The damaged sections will be replaced. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 85 12:00:39 pst Message-Id: <8503142000.AA06375@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: npoiv!jay Subject: 1983 TB Anton Winteroak Over on net.astro someone (Ken A.) indicated that a body named 1983 TB was due to actually hit the Earth in the year 2115. Of course if this is the case, we will welcome it safely into Earth orbit by means of mid course corrections. It may be a valuable source of raw materials. I ask you though, does anyone actually know of any source of information that would say that this is true or not. Please post any real info about this, and give some reference. If you want to send me mail on this send it to ...!npois!jay not !npoiv!jay. I'm just here today because of a bad power supply. ------------------------------ Sender: Parker.es@XEROX.ARPA Date: 14 Mar 85 12:05:06 PST (Thursday) Subject: Re: Funny units in SF book To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA From: James Parker Pavel, in metric units you are quite correct in your reasoning. "specific impulse" is the english engineering term used to obscure the fact you're talking about exhaust velocity. since i don't understand english engineering units, i can't tell you why specific impulse comes out in 1 / sec. i learned the metric system at age 20 and that cleared up lots of questions like yours. if you want to understand physics, think metric. James ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 85 04:02 PST From: TERRY%SAV@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Nearby stars revisited To: SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA I apologize for sending this to the whole group, but I don't have in hand the address of the person looking for nearby stars. In any case, some of you may be interested in these references anyway. I have come up with more and better lists of nearby stars, these including the positions. But still all I can find is the top 50 or so. If you want one of these lists, I'll type it in and send it. I'm still looking. Terry R. Friedrichsen George Abell, "Exploration of the Universe, 2nd ed.", Holt, Rinehart, and Winston, 1969. Appendix 12, page 698, lists about 50 nearby stars (counting multiples as n separate stars), including position, distance, proper motion, radial velocity, spectral type, and visual and absolute magnitudes. Its source is unspecified. Arthur P. Norton, "Norton's Star Atlas, 17th ed.", Sky Publishing Corporation, 1978. Table 45, page 89, lists 25 nearby stars (same conditions as before), with the same information as above, except gives parallax instead of proper motion. Its source is also unspecified. Elske Smith and Kenneth Jacobs, "Introductory Astronomy and Astrophysics", W. B. Saunders Company, 1973. Table A2-5, page 531, lists about 50 nearby stars, with the same information as Abell, minus the radial velocity. It credits distances to P. van de Kamp, and proper motions to W. Gliese. ------------------------------ From: Message-Id: <8503150452.AA23653@cod.ARPA> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 85 09:50:07 PST To: bang!terry%laj.sainet.mfenet@lll-fme Subject: oh, where, oh, where have those little stars gone? Cc: bang!space@mit-mc Terry (et alis) - My search has come down to the following points: (1) I already have a list of the 100 nearest stars, from Allen's _Astrophysical Quantities_ (3rd ed., Athlone Press, 1973). But, (as Jacqueline Suzanne might say) "one hundred stars aren't enough!". You see, I started the program with a list of nearly 200 stars, gleaned from the map of UNIVERSE, an out-of-print SF role-playing game. Going from 200 to 100 stars was something of a visual let-down; I thought it would be simple to up the count. Foolish me. (2) The book I want to get my hands on is _Catalog of Nearby Stars_ [sur- prise!] by Wilhelm Gliese (Verlag, 1969). Repeated trips to the libraries and astronomy departments at SDSU and UCSD have failed to turn up said book. I may just call up Verlag and order the book for myself. I know a copy exists at the HAO in Boulder (thanx to a call from Dick Munro, who gave me the publisher info also). I am beginning to wonder if that's the only copy in existence. (3) Many, many thanks for the great response from so many of you out in NetLand. Gosh, it's nice to know that resources like this exist, and that so many of you are willing to help out. (4) If you're interested in getting a copy of the program, please be patient. I have it running on the Macintosh (using MacAdvantage); I hope to have it running on the IBM PC (using Turbo Pascal) soon. I may even convert it over to the Apple II, but no promises. If you are interested in a copy, please send me a message to my net address below, indicating what machine (and, where applicable, language) you're working with. The article will be out in the July issue of BYTE; it won't have a complete program listing, but it will explain the formulae and techniques used. ..bruce.. Bruce Webster/BYTE Magazine bang!crash!bwebster@nosc {ihnp4 | sdcsvax!bang}!crash!bwebster 619/286-7576 [voice] 286-7838 [data] ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 85 22:04:00 PST From: WOO IL LEE Subject: re: launch windows To: space%mit-mc Reply-To: WOO IL LEE I would like to clear up something that has me confused. Up to now I have assumed that the PAM upper stage starts its burn when the shuttle's orbit crosses the equatorial plane, and that the longitude of this intersection is chosen so that the transfer orbit's perigee is near the satellite's final station. Is this correct? Does the shuttle maneuver so as to establish the proper nodes? Or does PAM have a plane change capability? ( I am sure the IUS does). Puzzled Emilio P. Calius Stanford Univ. ------ ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #113 ******************* 16-Mar-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #114 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 114 Today's Topics: Re: Saturn Vs in mothballs Asteroid Mining Re: Funny units in SF book Light Sails Re: Re: Lunar rock chemistry Re: 1983 TB ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 15 Mar 85 07:56:18 pst Message-Id: <8503151556.AA09633@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Saturn Vs in mothballs > You presume correctly. Three Saturn Vs were built (for Apollos 18, 19, > and 20) and never used. One is on display (on its side) at the Johnson > Space Center, and I believe the other two are at Kennedy and Huntsville. Almost right. One of the three left-over flight-ready Saturn Vs was used to launch Skylab, or rather the bottom two stages of it were so used. I believe the Huntsville Saturn V is actually a non-flying test article. The KSC and JSC ones are/were real flight-ready boosters. > I might question the structural integrity, though, after 15 years of > sitting around outside. Especially at the Cape, where salt-water corrosion has already damaged some of the old launch towers beyond repair. I believe the Huntsville Saturn V has been designated for special preservation efforts, as a national historical object or something like that. But it's most unlikely that any of them will ever be flyable again. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 85 11:49:48 pst Message-Id: <8503151949.AA10471@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: wucs!esk (Steve Healey) Subject: Asteroid Mining I am doing research on asteroid mining. Can anyone suggest some sources of information? I have done some digging in a university library, and have found a few books (the most useful of which is "Space Industrialization", edited by Brian O'Leary). However, most of the material I have found dates from 1977 or earlier, and most of it seems to be based on one or two primary sources that I cannot locate. Any information or tips on sources on asteroids, asteroid mining, or space industrialization in general would be greatly appreciated. Steven Healey reply to--------> sph3898@wucec1 ihnp4!wucs!wucec1!sph3898 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 85 10:15:19 pst From: David Smith Message-Id: <8503151815.AA04376@HP-MARS> To: pavel.pa%xerox@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: Re: Funny units in SF book Cc: space%mit-mc@csnet-relay.arpa Source-Info: From (or Sender) name not authenticated. In ``Code of the Lifemaker''by James P. Hogan, there is the following partial paragraph: ``In comparing the effectiveness of various ways of imparting momentum to a projectile, physicists employ the concept of `impulse', which is given by the product of the force acting on the projectile and the time for which it acts. In the case of spacecraft, a key indicator of performance is the impulse per unit vehicle mass, or `specific impulse,' which is measured in units of time and usually expressed in seconds.'' This has me confused. It seems to me from my ancient high school physics that force is measured in units of (mass * distance / time^2). Impulse is therefore in units of (mass * distance / time) and specific impulse in units of (distance / time) which is a lot like velocity, no? Where did the extra factor of (time^2 / distance) come from? Specific impulse is the impulse per unit propellant (not vehicle) mass. You are right, its measurement in seconds is not very rigorous. It comes from force*time/propellant mass, measuring both force and mass in pounds (or kilograms). It is not proper to measure mass in pounds or force in kilograms. Force-pounds and mass-pounds can be interconverted by assuming standard earth-surface gravity, which has dimensions of distance / time^2. Indeed, specific impulse should be measured in terms of velocity: exhaust velocity. David Smith HP Labs ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 85 17:23:11 EST From: John Heimann Subject: Light Sails To: space@mit-mc.arpa One aspect of the light sail issue that everybody seems to be ignoring is that an object with holes which are the order of magnitude of the wavelength of the particles which strike the object, be those particles photons, electrons, nucleii, or whatever, doesn't simply reflect or transmit the particles (depending on whether the hole is "bigger" or "smaller" than the particle), but rather diffracts them. How much of the incident particle wave is scattered forward and how much is scattered backward can only be calculated by doing a Fourier integral of wavelength over the surface of the object with the holes. If you choose the hole pattern in a certain way, for instance, your light sail could turn out to be effectively a light lens or light prism - that's how a photographic diffraction grating works, after all. John ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 85 19:42:28 pst Message-Id: <8503160342.AA13158@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ames!eugene (Eugene Miya) Subject: Re: Re: Lunar rock chemistry > > You must have seen Robinson Crusoe on Mars. > > --eugene miya > As a matter of fact, I haven't seen "Robinson Crusoe on Mars". Is it a > classic ? > -Chris Sylvain yes! it's almost as good as "destination moon" but some would say the use of death valley as a location for mars is too hokey. in the film, crusoe discovers a yellow rock with releases o2 when burned thus giving him a source of o2 in the rarified martian atmosphere. --eugene ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 85 23:54:01 pst Message-Id: <8503160754.AA13701@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ssc-vax!atst (Tom Pace) Subject: Re: 1983 TB > Over on net.astro someone (Ken A.) indicated that a body named > 1983 TB was due to actually hit the Earth in the year 2115. Of course if > this is the case, we will welcome it safely into Earth orbit by means of > mid course corrections. It may be a valuable source of raw materials. > I ask you though, does anyone actually know of any source of > information that would say that this is true or not. Please post any > real info about this, and give some reference. > If you want to send me mail on this send it to ...!npois!jay > not !npoiv!jay. I'm just here today because of a bad power supply. For your information, Ken A. is a glitch in the UUCP software. This glitch has been around for quite some time and no one seems to know how to cure it. It pops up at random on the net and posts nonsense that can sometimes fool the unwary. It is possible that this glitch might be in the hardware at some unknown site (loose connection?) in which case it will probably go away after a while. Information on celestial objects in the vicinity of the earth (or pre- dicted to be in the vicinity) can be found in Sky and Telescope magazine. Brian Marsden at the Smithsonian Astrophysical Institute keeps up-to-date lists of various objects and acts as an umpire for 1st sightings of all comets, novas, and other phenomena. You will find his address in the magazine also. By the way...if you want to study the effects of the UUCP glitch mentioned above, try subscribing to net.flame, net.politics, and net.religeon. It is especially virulent there. I hope it doesn't run its full course through this group or we will all have to unsubscribe. Tom Pace ihnp4!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!atst Above opinions are my own and should not be construed with those of the Boeing Company which, interesting thought they might be, are not included here for lack of space. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #114 ******************* 17-Mar-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #115 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 115 Today's Topics: Calling Employees of Hughes Calling Hughes Employees Catalog of stars within 25 parsecs Re: Re: Lunar Mining color field for stars Re: Lunar Colony ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 16 Mar 85 11:40:33 pst Message-Id: <8503161940.AA14910@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: utzoo!kcarroll (Kieran A. Carroll) Subject: Calling Employees of Hughes * A Question: Are there any employees of the Hughes Aircraft company out there on the net? This includes all of the divisions of the company, air, space, etc. If there are, please get in touch with me by mail. I'm hoping that such a person might be able to help me chase down a tech. memo put out by Hughes, 'lo these many years ago. Thanks in advance! -- Kieran A. Carroll @ U of Toronto Aerospace Institute {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!kcarroll ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 85 11:40:52 pst Message-Id: <8503161940.AA14917@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: utzoo!kcarroll (Kieran A. Carroll) Subject: Calling Hughes Employees * A Question: Are there any employees of the Hughes Aircraft company out there on the net? This includes all of the divisions of the company, air, space, etc. If there are, please get in touch with me by mail. I'm hoping that such a person might be able to help me chase down a tech. memo put out by Hughes, 'lo these many years ago. Thanks in advance! -- Kieran A. Carroll @ U of Toronto Aerospace Institute {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!kcarroll ------------------------------ From: Message-Id: <8503162246.AA12768@cod.ARPA> Date: Sat, 16 Mar 85 08:03:41 PST To: bang!ota@s1-a Subject: Catalog of stars within 25 parsecs Cc: bang!space@mit-mc Ted - many thanks for the Woolley reference. I got a call on Friday from Edward Olsen (who's working on SETI stuff at JPL), and he gave me the same info. I hope to hit the campus libraries today (Saturday) to see if it's there. I had to go ahead and send the list from Allen into BYTE (the article is almost two weeks late), but I may be able to do a quick substitution if I can get my hands on Wooley. I hope the rest of you aren't sick of hearing about nearby stars. For those of you with a similar interest, the reference that TEd and Edward gave me is: Woolley, Richard et alis. Royal Greenwich Observatory Catalog of Stars Within 25 Parsecs, RGO Annuals, Vol 5. Royal Greenwich Observatory, 1970. LofC# QB821 W1 1970. ..bruce.. bang!crash!bwebster@nosc {ihnp4 | sdcsvax!bang}!crash!bwebster ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 85 19:38:26 pst Message-Id: <8503170338.AA15942@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: haddock!stevel Subject: Re: Re: Lunar Mining Has anyone done studies on a sun light powered drill using a mirror collector and some high intensity light guide to direct the collected rays? Of course it would only work 2 weeks out of four but it might be able to be built on relativly low technology and the energy is free, renewable, and nonnuclear. Does anybody know about or have any references for high intensity light guides for noncoherent sources. Would one be able to get away with a highly reflective surface in a kevlar tube? Steve Ludlum, {ucbvax!decvax!cca-co | ihnp4 | cbosgd}!ima!stevel ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 85 19:55:01 pst Message-Id: <8503170355.AA16162@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: rochester!jay (Jay Weber) Subject: color field for stars A short time ago someone posted an abbreviated version of the Yale Catalog of Stars. I'm enthusiastic about playing with the data, but I don't understand one of the fields; the description is: ***** Color ***** Sign A1 B-V in UBV System I3 (unit = 0.01 magnitude) Can anyone fill me in on what measure of color this is? Thanks. Jay Weber jay@rochester.arpa ..!seismo!rochester!jay ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 85 23:35:09 pst Message-Id: <8503170735.AA16671@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: amdahl!ems (ems) Subject: Re: Lunar Colony > > Forget draging the farmtools and small hand tools up with you > > (after the first batch - and even they are optional). A good > > smith given reasonable ore and smelting facilities can make > > an astounding number of tools. > > And, I imagin, produce an astounding amount of atmospheric pollution. > Since the available atmosphere is very small, you cannot disperse > things into it. EVERY byproduct of your processes must be dealt > with. The part about the smith in the space suit was humor. I would expect that the actual work would be done inside. Yes, it would be a closed system. There will be garbage to deal with. Don't see how that changes things. The process of reducing ore has traditionally used carbon for this. To waste scarce carbon by dumping it into the 'air' would be plain stupid. This brings up an interesting point though: what reducing agents are found in the lunar environment? > The basic idea is very good though. Bring tools that make > tools. There was a study some time ago that identified a few dozen > tools that could be used to make almost any other industrial or agricultural > tool. Unfortunately, I can't remember where the study came from. I > think the California Space Institute had something to do with it. A few dozen? My god, that would be luxury! I have a book on smithing that shows how to start with *NONE*. Start by making a few bricks by hand. These are cured in a fire made by hand. They are used to make a *VERY* crude furnace. With this you smelt some ore to get pig iron. The iron is drained from the furnace into rough moulds dug in the dirt (either by hand or with a stick or a rock). These first lumps of iron are moulded as a flat lump for use as an anvil and a squarish lump with a hole in the middle for a hammer. Aditional iron is used for making pigs. With the bootstrap anvil and hammer you make crude tools for building a forge, billows, real anvil and real hammer. The first of these is the tongs. They hold the work piece while you use the hammer on it. Next is a cutting tool or two. (like chisles) With these you cut a file blank. Harden it. Then your ready to do a better anvil and hammer. Then some more tools and a better forge. etc. Bootstraping is never easy, but it can be done! Required are dirt and clay, fuel (heat source), ore and reducing agent (traditionally wood), water (for quenching and hardening), and wood & leather for a billows (Though I would expect that with solar heat the billows would be optional :-) I would also expect that starting with a couple of good power tools, a solar smelter kit, a real hammer and anvil, and a few decent hand tools would get you a few years ahead of the game real quick! -- E. Michael Smith ...!{hplabs,ihnp4,amd,nsc}!amdahl!ems Comedo ergo dorum This is the obligatory disclaimer of everything. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #115 ******************* 18-Mar-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #116 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 116 Today's Topics: Re: color field for stars Re: Lunar Colony ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 17 Mar 85 17:09:42 CST From: Mike Caplinger Subject: Re: color field for stars To: jay@rochester.ARPA Cc: space@mit-mc.ARPA Message-Id: B-V is the difference between the magnitude of the star when measured through a "blue" filter (440 nm) and a "visual" filter (yellow-green, 548 nm). The difference can be used to determine the star's temperature, since it defines two points on the blackbody curve, via the equation B - V ~ 7000(1/T - 1/15000) (units of Kelvins) (The 15000K comes from the fact that for a star of spectral class A0V B = V by definition.) Alas, stars are often not blackbodies. - Mike ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Mar 85 20:04:59 pst From: Rick McGeer (on an z29-e) Message-Id: <8503180404.AA11735@ucbkim.ARPA> To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Re: Lunar Colony Cc: > > Forget draging the farmtools and small hand tools up with you > > (after the first batch - and even they are optional). A good > > smith given reasonable ore and smelting facilities can make > > an astounding number of tools. > > And, I imagin, produce an astounding amount of atmospheric pollution. > Since the available atmosphere is very small, you cannot disperse > things into it. EVERY byproduct of your processes must be dealt > with. Forgive me, but I don't understand. How on earth can you have air pollution when you don't have air? In this case, the byproducts of smelting wouldn't be precipitate suspended in a fluid (= air pollution), but rather would settle to the ground as a dust. Rick. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #116 ******************* 19-Mar-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #117 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 117 Today's Topics: Asteroid mining coloUr field for stars Re: O2 from lunar rock re: launch windows info request Road test of shuttle transporter ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Mar 85 16:39:23 EST From: Dominique.Carrega@CMU-RI-ISL2 Subject: Asteroid mining To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A I'm doing a research project on asteroid mining. If any one can help, recommend sources, etc., I'd be eternally grateful. Also, is there any way of getting back "issues" of the SPACE digest? I though there might be some interesting messages that I've missed. -Daniel Zigmond (c/o djc@cmu-ri-isl2) [Old issues of the Space Digest can be requested by a note to space-request@mc if you know what issues you want. Unfortunately the archives are not kept on a machine with anonymous FTP so getting all the old digests is a bit more work. If that's what you need though send a message to space-request and something can be worked out. -Ted Anderson (The Moderator)] ------------------------------ Date: 18 March 1985 07:42-EST From: Richard Mlynarik Subject: coloUr field for stars To: SPACE @ MIT-MC, jay @ ROCHESTER See also the recently published and beautiful "Colours of Stars" by David Malin (the AAT photography wizard) Cambridge University Press, 1984 This will tell you a moderate amount about stellar spectral classifical but is also a wonderful pretty-picture-book. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Mar 85 09:30:36 cst From: "Duncan A. Buell" To: space-enthusiasts@mit-mc.csnet Regarding the S-V boosters in "mothballs." There is a reasonably realistic mockup or else the real thing at the Alabama tourist Welcome Station shortly after crossing the Alabama border on I-65 (?) from Tennessee, and shortly before the turnoff from I-65 (Nashville to Birmingham) to Huntspatch. I think that it's an S-V and not the smaller one (I know the difference, but I can't remember what it is that is there) but I have no idea how "real" it is or how much above the booster stage is real. It is mounted vertically, so anything over the booster could be totally fake and no one would know. Duncan Buell csnet: buell@lsu ------------------------------ Return-Path: Date: Mon, 18 Mar 85 10:04:16 pst From: hao!aurora!eugene@seismo.ARPA (Eugene miya) Message-Id: <8503181804.AA12838@aurora.UUCP> To: ut-sally!mordor!space@seismo.ARPA Subject: Re: O2 from lunar rock I stand corrected. --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center {hplabs,hao,dual,ihnp4,vortex}!ames!aurora!eugene emiya@ames-vmsb.ARPA or eugene@riacs.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Mar 85 11:56:52 pst Message-Id: <8503181956.AA21330@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: petrus!karn Subject: re: launch windows > I would like to clear up something that has me confused. Up to > now I have assumed that the PAM upper stage starts its burn when the > shuttle's orbit crosses the equatorial plane, and that the longitude of > this intersection is chosen so that the transfer orbit's perigee is near > the satellite's final station. > Is this correct? Does the shuttle maneuver so as to establish > the proper nodes? Or does PAM have a plane change capability? ( I am > sure the IUS does). This is essentially correct. The deployment takes place on an equator crossing, and the PAM ignites on the next crossing, half an orbit later. This allows the orbiter to do a separation maneuver at the time of deployment so that it will be some distance away by ignition time. Selecting the orbit on which deployment occurs allows the resulting transfer orbit apogee to occur near the desired parking spot to minimize the amount of near-stationary drifting required. Any engine can do a plane change if it is pointed out of plane. I've seen the transfer orbit elements for a few PAM missions and they do reduce the inclination by about 3 degrees. I'm not sure why because it is more efficient to let the apogee motor take it out instead; perhaps it allows finer balance between the two stages without having to shave out propellant. Phil ------------------------------ Date: Mon 18 Mar 85 17:05:39-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: info request To: space@S1-A.ARPA Can anyone tell me what conditions would be like if you had a G-type sun in a tight binary with a black hole of similar mass, just close enough for a little of the chromosphere of the sun to be continually eaten by the black hole. WOuld there be weird radiation throughout the system? What would inhabitants of an Earth-analogue planet notice, or is there some reason they wouldn't be around at all. Assume that so little of the chromosphere is being eaten that there is enough time for life to develop on an Earth-type world. Answers to me, I guess, and not the bulletin board. Thanks in advance for any guesses. -Laurence ------- ------------------------------ To: space@mit-mc Subject: Road test of shuttle transporter Date: 18 Mar 85 21:40:07 PST (Mon) From: Mike Iglesias The April issue of Road Test magazine has a tongue-in-cheek 'road test' of the transporter that moves the shuttle from the VAB to the launch site. Road Test has a 'road test' of this sort every April. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #117 ******************* 20-Mar-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #118 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 118 Today's Topics: Space Station Press Release Lunar Explosives Public Domain Star Catalogue Re: oh, where, oh, where have those little stars gone? Re: Road Test of shuttle transporter nearby stars (last message?) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Mar 85 04:55:03 pst Message-Id: <8503191255.AA25014@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ssc-vax!marla (Peckham) Subject: Space Station Press Release The following is a press release issued by NASA concerning the Space Station Phase B contract awards: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NASA News March 14, 1985 Release No: 85-38 NASA SELECTS 6 INDUSTRY TEAMS FOR SPACE STATION CONTRACTS The National Aeronautics and Space Administration has selected 6 industry teams for negotiations leading to fixed-price contracts for definition and preliminary design (Phase B) of elements of a permanently manned Space Station to be operational in low-Earth orbit by the mid 1990s. The contracts, to begin April 15, will extend for 21 months and will cover Space Station elements that have been assigned to four NASA centers. The responsible NASA center and the industry teams selected for negotiations are: MARSHALL SPACE FLIGHT CENTER, Huntsville, Ala. -- Boeing Aerospace Co., Seattle; and Martin Marietta Aerospace, Denver. GODDARD SPACE FLIGHT CENTER, Greenbelt, MD. -- RCA Astro Electronics, Princeton, NJ; and General Electric Co., Space Systems Division, Philadelphia. LEWIS RESEARCH CENTER, Cleveland -- Rockwell International, Rocketdyne Division, Canoga Park, Calif.; and TRW Federal Systems Division, Redondo Beach, Calif. In addition, NASA will negotiate with Lockheed Missiles & Space Co., Sunnyvale, Calif.; McDonnell Douglas Astronautics Co., Huntington Beach, Calif; and Rockwell International, Space Station Systems Division, Downey, Calif.; the three proposers for work to be performed under the management of the Johnson Space Center, Houston. Following negotiations, a report will be presented to the NASA Administrator who will then award one or more contracts. Although the value of each contract will be negotiated, the Request for Proposal issued Sept. 14, 1984, indicates that the approximate value of each contract to be managed by the Marshall Center could be $24 million, by Johnson $27 million, by Goddard $10 million, and by Lewis $6 million. In addition to the definition and preliminary design of the permanently manned Space Station, contractors are required to study how those elements of the Space Station would change were the station originally man-tended rather than permanently manned. Contractors also will pay particular attention to the recommendations of the NASA Advanced Technology Advisory Committee which is identifying automation and robotic technologies that could be used in the Space Station. Following completion of the 21-month contracts, NASA plans to move, in 1987 into final design and development (Phase C/D) of the Space Station. The work to be managed at each center covers: Marshall -- Definition and preliminary design of pressurized "common modules" which can be equipped with appropriate systems for use as laboratories, living areas, and logistic transport; environmental control and propulsive systems; a plan for equipping a module as a laboratory and additional ones for possible use as logistics modules; and a plan for accommodations for orbital maneuvering and orbital transfer vehicles. Johnson -- Definition and preliminary design of the structural framework to which the various elements of the Space Station will be attached; interface between the Space Station and the Space Shuttle; mechanisms such as the Remote Manipulator Systems; attitude control, thermal control, communications and data management systems; plan for equipping a module with sleeping quarters, wardroom, and galley; and plan for extra-vehicular activity. Goddard -- Definition and preliminary design of the automated free-flying platforms and of provisions to service, maintain, and repair the platforms and other free-flying spacecraft; provisions for instruments and payloads to be attached externally to the Space Station; and plan for equipping a module as a laboratory. Lewis -- Definition and preliminary design of the electrical power generation, conditioning and storage systems. President Reagan, in his State of the Union Message of Jan. 25, 1984, directed NASA to develop a permanently manned Space Station and to do it within a decade. With the Space Shuttle approaching operational maturity, the agency believes the Space Station to be the next logical step in space for the United States. NASA will retain the responsibility for overall program definition and plans to retain responsibility for systems engineering in integration throughout the program. This effort will be managed at the Johnson Space Center. NASA's plans call for a Space Station to be operational by the mid 1990's. It will be capable of growth both in size and capability and is intended to operate well into the 21st century. It is planned to be placed in low Earth orbit, about 300 miles high, and at an inclination to the equator of 28.5 degrees. It will include a number of pressurized modules and a power supply of about 75 kilowatts, support a crew of six to eight people and have two or more free-flying platforms. For the purpose of the definition and preliminary design activity, NASA has selected a Space Station reference configuration called "power tower". This is one of a family of configurations that uses similar elements or components. The power tower family is considered a starting point for the definition studies and is expected to undergo significant modifications as the studies progress. Contractors may offer modifications within the reference concept family or other preliminary designs. Launch of the Space Station elements and subsequent transportation between the Earth and station will be provided by the Space Shuttle. A major objective of the Space Station Program is to bring about participation of international partners as builders and users as well as to assist in Space Station operations. The European Space Agency, Canada, and Japan have indicated interest in participating in the Space Station program. Funding for such international participation will be provided by the other governments who will award their own definition and preliminary design contracts in phase and in coordination with the NASA activity. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marla S. Baer-Peckham Boeing Aerospace Co. ssc-vax!marla ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 85 05:01:08 pst Message-Id: <8503191301.AA25063@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ISM780!chris Subject: Lunar Explosives Actually the use of explosives on the moon is quite practical. In a recent response to my original lunar colony note, several problems were brought up. They included the distance material is thrown, damage to nearby structures, and safety. It turns out that modern explosives and techniques are suitable for the task. First, distance material is thrown. A little reflection shows that the maximum time for particles to land on the moon is twelve times the time the same particle would take on earth. On earth very large explosions (strip mining bench blasting) can throw sizable pieces several hundred yards. Time of flight is on the order of a second. We won't be using a blast anywhere near as big. Earth explosions (conventional explosives) don't come anywhere near to putting stuff in orbit. The 1/6 gravity of the moon is nowhere near low enough to enable stuff to reach orbital velocity. If we stay under cover for about 15 seconds (but call it a minute to be safe) everything will have landed. Second, damage to nearby structures. There is a book called "The Modern Technique of Rock Blasting" published in the early seventies in Sweden. I read the copy in the UCLA Research Library. It shows methods for doing precision blasting in areas where fragments cannot be allowed to fly about. One picture shows a building foundation being blasted with buildings on either side, literally feet away from the blasts. The text talks about how to minimize ground shake and fragment throw. It is quite practical to blast hard rock within feet of existing structures without damaging them. The text has some amazing pictures that show rock that looks like it has been sawn that has really been blasted. It is possible to control explosives to give very precise results. Third, is safety. There are modern explosives that are shock insensitive to an amazing degree. One result of the nuclear weapons program was the development of explosives to compress the nuclear material that would not detonate during an accident. There is a film that is shown at the Museum in Los Alamos that shows rockets with cargos of the insensitive explosive impacting concrete walls. The rocket is destroyed, but the explosive does not detonate. This explosive is also easily machined, and stores well. It would be safer to transport than the solid fuel rockets used as kick motors on satellites. The nice thing about explosive digging is that you can move a lot of material in very short order. With proper precautions it is no more dangerous than using a catapilar tractor, and much faster. chris kostanick decvax!vortex!ism780!chris ------------------------------ From: Michael_D'Alessandro%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Message-ID: <46350@Wayne-MTS> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 85 22:03:48 EST To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Public Domain Star Catalogue Are there any public domain star catalogues available in machine-readable form on the net? If you know of any, could you please tell what media format it is in (on-line, on tape, on floppy) and how large it is? A brief description of what is contained in the catalogue would be very helpful also. We have a user at our site interested in obtaining such a catalog. Michael D'Alessandro <>: MPD%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-Multics.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 85 16:28:36 cst From: speegle@ut-ngp.ARPA (Charles R. Speegle) Posted-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 85 16:28:36 cst Message-Id: <8503192228.AA01467@ut-ngp.ARPA> To: space@mit-mc Subject: Re: oh, where, oh, where have those little stars gone? A friend of mine has already researched and draw up a star map from reliable sources(don't know exactly which ones) that has a 50 light year diameter map centered on earth. It has over 1000 stars. In case you're wondering it was for a game. It looks quite nice. If anyone is interested contact me. Charles R. Speegle (512-926-0420) p.s. 1st time to reply if I fail don't flame me contact me personally. ------------------------------ To: space@mit-mc Subject: Re: Road Test of shuttle transporter Date: 19 Mar 85 16:42:24 PST (Tue) From: Mike Iglesias Sorry, that should be the April issue of Road and Track magazine, not Road Test magazine, that has the road test of the shuttle transporter. ------------------------------ From: Message-Id: <8503200940.AA26481@cod.ARPA> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 85 21:59:24 PST To: bang!katz@uci-icse Subject: nearby stars (last message?) Cc: bang!space@mit-mc Martin (and the rest of you helpful people): (1) there appear to be no copies of either Woolley or Gliese here in San Diego. I made trips to UCSD, SDSU, and even USD with no luck. (2) UC Irvine has (according to MELVYN, the online UC library catalog) a copy of Woolley. (3) Michael Hartsough, a student at USC, found a copy of Gliese (or was it Woolley?) and checked it out (bless his heart). I may yet run up and look at it (not to mention do some xeroxing). (4) Had a long and profitable talk with Wayne Warren, director of the Astronomical Data Center at NASA/Goddard. He has both Gliese and Woolley *on mag tape* and will cheerfully send me the files if I send him a blank tape. Then I'll just need to find someone who can transfer it from mag tape to a uucp node (and thence to crash). Warren also said that Gliese is working on a brand-new catalog of nearby stars which is supposed to be out by early next year. I, for one, plan to buy a copy when it comes out. (5) If you're interested in the star map program (or even just the list of nearby stars), please drop me a line at the address below. I'm not ready (able) to send stuff out yet, but I will as soon as I can. As mention, the Mac version is written in MacAdvantage (UCSD Pascal); I hope to quickly convert it to C (probably Megamax), so state your preference as to which language you want (IBM'ers: I'll do a conver- sion to Turbo Pascal at some point). (6) Thanks to one and all; you've all been great. ..bruce.. Bruce Webster/BYTE Magazine bang!crash!bwebster@nosc {ihnp4 | sdcsvax!bang}!crash!bwebster ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #118 ******************* 22-Mar-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #119 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 119 Today's Topics: Mystery particles re: launch windows request for moon phase and position calculation programs Re: oh, where, oh, where have those little stars gone? star map article ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thursday, 21 March 1985 07:58:58 EST From: Hans.Moravec@cmu-ri-rover.arpa To: space@s1-a.arpa Subject: Mystery particles Message-ID: <1985.3.21.12.56.32.Hans.Moravec@cmu-ri-rover.arpa> n130 2330 20 Mar 85 BC-PARTICLES By WALTER SULLIVAN c.1985 N.Y. Times News Service NEW YORK - Astrophysicists say they believe a cosmic power source far out in space may be bombarding the earth with subatomic particles different from any known to science. Recordings taken deep in a mine at Soudan, Minn., an Ohio salt mine and beneath a World War II bunker at the University of Kiel in West Germany are believed to include scores of high-energy particles from the general direction of Cygnus X-3, a double-star system in the constellation Cygnus. Scientists said Wednesday that they were at a loss to explain the new data in terms of known forms of radiation, and stressed that the recordings needed much more analysis. But they said the data called into question the suggestion made several weeks ago, on the basis of particles detected in a salt mine beneath Lake Erie, that Cygnus X-3 may be a major source of extremely high energy neutrinos. Neutrinos are the most penetrating and elusive of all known subatomic particles. They can pass through the earth or almost any amount of detecting material without producing any effect. In recent days, reports of the Minnesota and Ohio observations have prompted underground observatories elsewhere to seek verification, including those in the Frejus and Mont Blanc tunnels that link France and Italy under the Alps. Dr. Donald Cundy of CERN, the European Organization for Nuclear Research in Geneva, Switzerland, said Wednesday that his recordings under Mont Blanc had shown ''something interesting,'' but he was not prepared to say more. One member of the Ohio salt mine team, Dr. John Learned of the University of Hawaii, who has analyzed the observations there, says he is ''pretty well convinced'' that some new form of physics is involved in the observed particles. But Dr. Shelton Glashow of Harvard University, winner of a Nobel Prize for his theoretical contributions to high-energy physics, described the reports as ''unconvincing evidence for an unbelievable result.'' In a telephone interview, he termed the findings ''really wild,'' but said their validity ''is, of course, possible.'' The bunker observations in West Germany were actually reported several years ago, but until now were widely regarded as an experimental error. Cygnus X-3 was originally identified as a source of powerful X-rays. It is now believed to be two extremely dense stars circling one another at close range and, in some unknown manner, emitting profuse, high-energy radiation in tempo with the motion of the two objects around one another every 4.8 hours. In analyzing the salt mine data for evidence of neutrinos from Cygnus X-3, scientists assumed those that had passed through thousands of miles of rock would be most easily distinguished from other forms of radiation. The search, therefore, focused on particle tracks originating when Cygnus X-3 was below the horizon or very low in the sky. About 20 candidate events fit the direction and 4.8-hour period of that source. On learning of the salt mine results, the Minnesota group began examining their data, but included arrivals from directly overhead. They found that candidate particles arrived readily when Cygnus was high in the sky but not when it was below the horizon. This indicated that, unlike neutrinos, the particles can traverse only a limited amount of rock. Further, far too many particles were recorded for them to have the elusive character of the ghostly neutrinos. In any case, the particles detected are assumed to be muons - heavy, short-lived counterparts of electrons - produced by high-energy particles hitting material in the detectors or nearby walls. Attempts to identify sources of cosmic rays, which are extremely high-energy particles that rain on the earth, are conducted deep under ground to avoid less energetic forms of radiation. Even so, the detectors still record large numbers of muons generated by less powerful cosmic rays hitting the atmosphere. Thus, according to Dr. Marvin L. Marshak of the University of Minnesota, his group's underground evidence of Cygnus X-3 bombardment has been extracted from 870,000 recorded muon penetrations. The first step was to set aside all but those arriving from within 3 degrees of the direction of that hypothetical source. This reduced the sample to 1,100 penetrations, or events. The second step was to analyze their arrival times to see if a significant number fit into the 4.8-hour cycle of known emissions from Cygnus X-3. Surface observatories in the United States, Britain and Germany have shown that Cygnus X-3's output of other radiation, such as extremely high-energy gamma rays, shows such a periodicity. Analysis of recordings in the Soudan mine by a collaboration of the University of Minnesota and Argonne National Laboratory has attributed 80 events to Cygnus X-3, with an error margin of 20. Marshak and his colleagues reported their data, in tentative form, to Physical Review Letters. However, collaborators in the salt mine observations, including physicists from the University of California at Irvine, the University of Michigan and Brookhaven National Laboratory, have not done so as they sought to strengthen their analysis. nyt-03-21-85 0229est *************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 85 08:51:09 pst Message-Id: <8503211651.AA00507@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: re: launch windows As Phil mentions, it is generally more efficient to do plane changes at apogee. I thought people might be interested in why. Basically, when you're far away from a gravitating body, all orbits look similar in one sense: velocities are small, and the differences between the velocity vectors of different orbits are therefore small. So you can make orbit changes in general, and plane changes in particular, with relatively modest expenditures of fuel. Of course, you have to haul the fuel up to the maneuvering altitude, but it turns out that you still come out ahead in general. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 85 11:47:08 pst Message-Id: <8503211947.AA01476@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: plx!adams (Robert Adams) Subject: request for moon phase and position calculation programs I am looking for programs or algorithms for calculating the phases of the moon. Programs or algorithms that calculate lunar, solar, and earthar positions and can calculate eclipses (lunar and/or solar) would also be happily accepted. Prefered languages are C and FORTRAN although algorithms in any language are usable. ..!{decvax,ucbvax}!sun!plx!adams -- Robert Adams ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 85 15:46:52 cst From: speegle@ut-ngp.ARPA (Charles R. Speegle) Posted-Date: Thu, 21 Mar 85 15:46:52 cst Message-Id: <8503212146.AA00122@ut-ngp.ARPA> To: space@mit-mc Subject: Re: oh, where, oh, where have those little stars gone? [a repost since the line eater struck!] A friend of mine worked several months on a star map, taking as sources books from the UT astro. library(exactly which I don't know) It is centered on earth and the diameter is 50 lt. years. It is printed on hex paper and it was for a game. As I wrote before it looks nice, contact me if interested. Charles R. Speegle (512-926-0420) ------------------------------ From: Message-Id: <8503220940.AA23600@cod.ARPA> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 85 22:56:53 PST To: bang!space@mit-mc Subject: star map article A number of you have expressed an interest in the program but for a system other than the Macintosh. If you'd like, I can send you the accompanying article (which *is* already on my Compaq), and that may tell you most of what you need to know to implement it (except, of course, for the hard part: the graphics). Anyone interested? ..bruce.. Bruce Webster/BYTE Magazine bang!crash!bwebster@nosc {ihnp4 | sdcsvax!bang}!crash!bwebster ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #119 ******************* !22-Mar-85 0348 @MIT-MC,@seismo.ARPA:nsc!cadtec!cate3@seismo.ARPA Received: from MIT-MC.ARPA by S1-A.ARPA with TCP; 22 Mar 85 03:48:14 PST Received: from seismo.ARPA by MIT-MC.ARPA; 22 MAR 85 06:55:21 EST Return-Path: Received: from hao.UUCP by seismo.ARPA with UUCP; Fri, 22 Mar 85 06:54:36 EST Received: by hao.NCAR (4.12/4.7) id AA23486; Thu, 21 Mar 85 23:24:47 mst From: Received: by HP-VENUS id AA07788; Thu, 21 Mar 85 18:51:39 pst Received: by nsc.UUCP (4.12/4.7) id AA25632; Thu, 21 Mar 85 16:06:43 pst Message-Id: <8503220006.AA25632@nsc.UUCP> Date: Thursday, 21 Mar 85 15:30:24 PST To: ut-sally!mordor!space@seismo.ARPA To: nsc!hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!mordor!space@mit-mc Subject: Re: info request Newsgroups: net.space In-Reply-To: <1146@mordor.UUCP> Organization: Cadtec Corp., San Jose, CA Cc: Wouldn't the roche limit cause the sun (and black hole?) to break up? It doesn't sound stable. Henry III UUCP: {nsc,csi}!cadtec!cate3 Cadtec Corp., San Jose, CA 408 942 1535 x384 23-Mar-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #120 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 120 Today's Topics: Re: Plane Change in Transfer Orbit Plane Change in Transfer Orbit Re: Funny units in SF book Free Enterprise in Space Specific impulse optimization re: transfer orbits ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Mar 85 10:36:12 pst Message-Id: <8503221836.AA07024@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: petrus!karn Subject: Re: Plane Change in Transfer Orbit This is very interesting. I'd like to see the details of how this is so. Back when I was helping to plan the orbital maneuvers for AMSAT-OSCAR-10 we wanted to change a GTO as given by an Ariane (inclination 8.6 deg) to a Molniya approximation (63 deg). I found through some reading that for VERY large plane changes (like the one we wanted to do), the economy of plane changes at apogee is so strong that it actually saves fuel to boost apogee, do your change at the new apogee, then drop back down to the desired apogee. We didn't opt for that because of the risk involved; we easily had enough delta-vee that an overburn at perigee would have given us earth escape velocity. We didn't want to compete with Voyager. In addition, communication links at 100,000km+ might have become marginal, and with a starting perigee of 200 km, additional perturbations from the sun and moon could be serious. Even a "normal" plane change carried its risks. I realized that if the engine were to shut down midway through a large maneuver, the resulting perigee would be negative. We therefore planned a two-burn "dogleg" compromise in which the intermediate orbit would still be useful. This turnd out lucky -- the motor overburned on the first shot due to a wiring error in the control circuit, and failed to burn on the second shot due to a loss of helium pressure likely caused by the unplanned temperature excursions resulting from a collision with the launcher shortly after separation. We've got a usable, functional satellite, although it's been through a few "hard knocks". Phil ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 85 09:54:42 pst Message-Id: <8503221754.AA06825@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: utzoo!kcarroll (Kieran A. Carroll) Subject: Plane Change in Transfer Orbit * A couple of people have claimed that, when transferring from low-earth orbit to geosynchronous orbit, it is generally advantageous to perform any plane-change maneouvres required entirely at apogee, and none at all at the perigee of the transfer orbit. Well, "I am sorry, but that turns out not to be the case..." If you calculate the amount of delta-v required for a LEO-to- geosynch transfer, as a function of the amount of plane change performed at LEO, you will find in some cases that a slight savings of delta-v can be had by performing a small amount of plane-change at the perigee (and most of the plane-change at the apogee) of the transfer orbit. I recently calculated exactly this function, while taking an orbital dynamics course. LEO was inclined 28.5 degrees to the equator, and was 300 km high. If 2.2 degrees of plane change were done in LEO, at the time of the perigee burn, about 0.6% of the total delta-v could be saved. As the professor giving the course pointed out, this saving may be small, but it's exploited quite frequently by people launching satellites. -- Kieran A. Carroll @ U of Toronto Aerospace Institute {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!kcarroll ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 85 10:32:55 pst Message-Id: <8503221832.AA06992@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: petrus!karn Subject: Re: Funny units in SF book The "true" units of specific impulse is force-time/mass, ie, how much thrust can it produce for how long for a given amount of propellant. In metric units, this is simply newton-seconds/kg, which simplifies to meters/sec (the exhaust velocity). However, in archaic English units this is written as poundsforce-seconds/poundsmass, and the dissimilar pounds units are incorrectly canceled out, leaving so-called "seconds". Because a pound of mass corresponds to a pound of force only in a 1G acceleration field, the earth's surface gravitational acceleration is factored into this so-called "seconds" figure. To convert to exhaust velocity, just multiply by 9.8 m/sec^2 or 32 ft/sec^2. The number you really want to use is exhaust velocity, in the classic rocket equation delta-v = Ve * ln(mass loaded/mass dry) I agree, metric units are the only way to go. I always feel a twinge of embarassment every time I hear the NASA commentator use "knots", "feet per second" and "statute miles" in the same breath during a shuttle launch. The press kits on the Shuttle are even worse. Every measure is given in about three or four sets of units, and many of the conversions are wrong. You don't know which to believe unless there are enough versions to allow majority voting. ESA may use three languages, but at least they have their measurement act together. Phil ------------------------------ Date: 22 Mar 1985 14:39-PST Sender: WARD@USC-ISIF.ARPA Subject: Free Enterprise in Space From: Craig E. Ward To: BBoard@USC-ISIB.ARPA Cc: Space@MIT-MC.ARPA, Aviation@MIT-MC.ARPA Message-ID: <[USC-ISIF.ARPA]22-Mar-85 14:39:33.WARD> On Tuesday, March 26 at 7:00 pm, the Los Angles chapter of the L5 Society (OASIS) will be hosting a presentation by Richard Rassmussen in the Kinsey Auditorium of the California Museum of Science and Industry. Richard Rassmussen is the president of Space Vector Corporation, the private firm which provided the engines for the first private space launch. The company is currently interested in exporting rocket technology on the international market. The presentation will focus on bringing the cost of transportation to Earth orbit low enough so that private firms may launch their own payloads. The meeting is open to the public and the admission is free. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 85 10:36:39 pst Message-Id: <8503221836.AA07032@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: petrus!karn Subject: Specific impulse optimization I'd like to ask all you rocketry types out there for some help on a practical design problem. One of AMSAT's upcoming satellites, PACSAT (Packet radio satellite) is planned to use a low thrust, electrically powered thruster to raise its orbit from a low altitude, high inclination shuttle orbit to something approximating a sun synchronous orbit (if we can go from Vandenburg) or at least something that won't fall out of the sky in 3 months (like 800 km circular from a 57 deg Spacelab mission). We are hoping to use anhydrous ammonia as the propellant because it gives the best performance of all alternatives we've studied for the kind of thruster we envision. The engine simply boils the propellant with a heater and squirts it out the back. Thrust would be somewhere around 2 millinewtons, while power consumption might be 50-100watts. Part time bursts over a period of a couple of months should be sufficient to raise the orbit to 800 km or so. The question arises as to what value of specific impulse we should design the thruster for. Before you say "as high as possible", let me explain that in a rocket where the propellant and the energy source are separate (unlike conventional chemical combustion engines) there is a tradeoff between the power required to develop a given amount of thrust and the propellant mass that must be thrown overboard per unit time. Impulse increases linearly with the velocity that is imparted to the propellant, but the kinetic energy increases as the square of the velocity. The result is a linear increase in the power needed to produce a constant amount of thrust as the exhaust velocity (specific impulse) is increased. An example: The hypergolic kick motor on AO-10 developed 400 N of thrust with an exhaust velocity of about 2770 m/sec. The kinetic energy imparted to the propellant was therefore 400 * 2770 = 554 KW. However, if a cesium ion engine with an exhaust velocity of 50,000 m/sec could be developed, it would have to impart 10 MW to its exhaust to develop the same 400N of thrust. On the other hand, less propellant would have to be carried to achieve the same delta-vee, so more mass would be available for a power supply. Given weight figures for the solar panels and a time limit on reaching altitude, there must be some optimum specific impulse that balances electrical generation mass with propellant mass. Has anyone looked at this general problem and done the formulas? Phil ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 85 09:51:59 pst Message-Id: <8503221751.AA06792@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ssc-vax!eder (Dani Eder) Subject: re: transfer orbits > > Any engine can do a plane change if it is pointed out of plane. > I've seen the transfer orbit elements for a few PAM missions and they > do reduce the inclination by about 3 degrees. I'm not sure why because > it is more efficient to let the apogee motor take it out instead; perhaps > it allows finer balance between the two stages without having to shave > out propellant. > > Phil When you are in orbit you have a velocity vector. To go to a transfer orbit you make that vector longer (increase velocity). To change orbit inclination you make the vector point in a different direction. The velocity your rocket has to provide is the difference between your initial and final velocity vectors. If you are already planning to add velocity, you can add a few degrees of plane change for almost nothing. This reduces the large plane change at GEO when you circularize. The circularization burn is at lower velocities. Since the vector you are reorienting is smaller, plane change is less expensive at GEO. But at large angles, the cost is non-trivial. The angles are split so as to maximize the payload delivered by minimizing the total velocity required. The typical split is 2.5 degrees at perigee and 26 degrees at apogee. This is much clearer graphically (sigh, no graphics terminal.) Dani Eder/ Advanced Space Transportation, Boeing Company/ ssc-vax!eder/ ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #120 ******************* 24-Mar-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #121 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 121 Today's Topics: Re: oh, where, oh, where have those little stars gone? Paper airplanes in space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Return-Path: Date: Fri, 22 Mar 85 18:43:24 pst From: Message-Id: <8503230243.AA19098@HP-VENUS> To: umcp-cs!gymble!lll-crg!dual!mordor!space@seismo.ARPA Subject: Re: oh, where, oh, where have those little stars gone? References: <1090@mordor.UUCP> I'd love a copy for the Mac. Al Globus 127 Cayuga Santa Cruz, CA. 95062 (408) 425-7038 I don't mind sending a few bucks if you indicate an amount. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 85 23:43:34 pst Message-Id: <8503240743.AA13167@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: spp3!brahms (Bradley S. Brahms) Subject: Paper airplanes in space [}{] The other day, a question came to mind. What effect 0g would have on a paper airplane. I am assuming that there is still air, like inside a shuttle. Assuming the paper airplane was designed to do loop-d-loops, would it, or would the lack of gravity make it unstable? -- Brad Brahms usenet: {decvax,ucbvax}!trwrb!trwspp!brahms arpa: Brahms@usc-eclc ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #121 ******************* 26-Mar-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #122 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 122 Today's Topics: Re: nearby stars (last message?) Re: oh, where, oh, where have those little stars gone? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message-Id: <8503252238.AA20416@dual.UUCP> Date: 25 Mar 85 15:10:51 CST (Mon) From: dual!ihnp1!whitten To: ihnp4!drutx!ahuta!houxm!mhuxt!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!bellcore!decvax!genrad!panda!talcott!harvard! Subject: Re: nearby stars (last message?) Bruce, I'd be interested in getting a copy of your star program for the Macintosh when you have it ready. Also the star data would be fun to have. I've enjoyed watching your conversations in trying to track down the star data even though I didn't have any information to contribute. Usenet sure allows one to tap into an amazing wealth of knowledge. I'll be looking forward to your Byte article. Tom Whitten AT&T Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois 312/979-5827 ihnp4!ihnp1!whitten ------------------------------ Return-Path: Date: Mon, 25 Mar 85 13:34:48 pst From: hao!hplabs!sdcrdcf!alan@seismo.ARPA (Alan Algustyniak) Message-Id: <8503252134.AA04838@sdcrdcf.UUCP> To: mit-mc.ARPA>!, hao!seismo!umcp-cs!gymble!lll-crg!dual!mordor!space< Subject: Re: oh, where, oh, where have those little stars gone? Newsgroups: net.space Organization: System Development Corporation R&D, Santa Monica Hi, I am interested in getting a copy of your program and start list. I have a Tandy 2000 (IBM PC Clone). I'd like to have a copy which runs on the IBM PC (I can do any necessary converting myself). Sending it to me via net-mail is fine. Thanks for the offer! sdcrdcf!alan (Al Algustyniak) ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #122 ******************* 27-Mar-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #123 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 123 Today's Topics: Help Wanted: Books on Orbital Mehchanics ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Mar 85 04:42:56 pst Message-Id: <8503261242.AA20111@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: reed!todd (Todd Ellner) Subject: Help Wanted: Books on Orbital Mehchanics What are some good introductory books on this subject? The discussions here have been interesting lately, and I would like to be able to follow them better. Thanks in advance, Todd Ellner ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #123 ******************* 28-Mar-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #124 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 124 Today's Topics: Spacepac and SDI ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Mar 85 16:08:56 pst Message-Id: <8503280008.AA01226@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: petrus!karn Subject: Spacepac and SDI Can anybody give me Spacepac's (the political action committee set up by the L-5 society) stand (if any) on SDI ("Star Wars")? I don't see it mentioned in any of the literature I see. They're soliciting me for funds to lobby for the space station, a most worthwhile cause, but they won't get a dime from me if it turns out that they're also supporting SDI in any way. Phil ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #124 ******************* 29-Mar-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #125 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 125 Today's Topics: Voyager 2/Uranus SDI Offensive ? L5 and SPACEPAC Books on orbital mechanics ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 Mar 85 07:45:15 pst Message-Id: <8503281545.AA05043@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: fisher@dvinci.DEC Sender: decwrl!johnsson Subject: Voyager 2/Uranus A recent "stardate" article in net.astro prompted me to start bringing Voyager 2 back into active memory. Back when Voyager was launched, January 1986 seemed like a totally unreal date, but now it is approaching, and sure enough, Voyager is approaching Uranus! Can someone on the net tell us something about Voyager's health? Last I remember, its scan platform had partially jammed while passing through Saturn's rings. There was some speculation that a ring particle had jammed it, although I think I remember that that idea has since been abandoned. Has it been repaired ("Hello, Acme Spacecraft Repair? We've got this probe out between Saturn and Uranus..."), or a workaround found? Also, the command receiver had lots of problems right near the beginning of the mission. Is all still holding together? And finally, the stardate article indicated that there are lots of unknowns about things like the number and size of the moons of Uranus. Won't they have a significant effect on Voyager's course through the Uranus system? Are there figures for the probability that Voyager will remain close enough to its predicted course to continue on to Neptune? (BTW, what is the date of the Neptune encounter?) Starting to get excited already, Burns UUCP: ... {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dvinci!fisher ARPA: fisher%dvinci.dec@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Mar 85 15:52:41 EST From: John Heimann Subject: SDI Offensive ? To: space@mit-mc.arpa Cc: jheimann@BBNCCY.ARPA While I don't believe that SDI (aka Star Wars) would solve the problem of nuclear defense even if it lived up to Reagan's wildest hopes, which it almost surely will not, I suspect that research into SDI may lead to some interesting (from a military point of view) offensive weapons. Six years ago, I worked in the military energy group a company whose specialty was analysis of the "Soviet Threat." At that time, there was a good deal of interest in using high energy lasers ("HELs" as everbody refered to them) as tactical weapons. I saw at least one paper that outlined a system using very large lasers on space platforms as space-to-air defensive and space-to-surface offensive weapons. The virtues of such a system are that it could destroy large tactical or small strategic targets (ships, communication facilities, missle silos) "surgically" - i.e. without damage to surrounding structures. No blast, no radiation. In peacetime the platform power supply (huge solar panels or a fairly large reactor pumping out somewhere on the order of 10^8 watts) could send usable power to earth by defocussing the beam. So called "surgical" strategic weapons have great appeal in the military, since the threat of mutual assured destruction following the use of nuclear weapons on strategic targets has limited modern warfare to relatively small tactical engagements. Threatening to use nuclear weapons in response to any provocation short of nuclear attack is like your first grade buddy threatening to hit you with a bat if you shoot rubber bands at him again. He probably could, but you know he isn't going to do it, he knows he isn't going to do it, so you zip one off your finger at him and run away laughing. On the other hand, if he threatened to shoot you with a paper clip, you might think twice. Military planners have been looking for strategic paper clips since 1954, when the hydrogen bomb made baseball bat warfare "obsolete". Since most people still believe that thermonuclear weapons have made general war impossible, the notion of developing a completely new offensive weapons system seems pointless to them. Others recognize that limited war is still possible, at least in theory, and don't like the idea of weapons systems of limited destructiveness that could make it less painful to break the strategic stalemate. If these weapons are developed as part of a defensive research program, however, the risk of public opposition is much smaller. This is not to say that I believe the SDI program is an offensive program in disguise, since the offensive weapons I have mentioned above are orders of magnitude larger than any of the defensive systems that have been discussed publicly. However, there is usually a very fine line betwen offensive and defensive technology, as the framers of the ABM treaty were well aware. I wouldn't be surprised if offensive space weapons are already in the works, and those who are concerned about their undermining the present nuclear peace, or about the growth of military operations in space, should be on guard. John ------------------------------ Date: 29 March 1985 00:10-EST From: Robert E. Bruccoleri Subject: L5 and SPACEPAC To: PETRUS!KARN @ MIT-MC cc: SPACE-ENTHUSIASTS @ MIT-MC From what I've read in the L5 News, L5 has not decided on an official policy towards SDI, so presumably, neither has SPACEPAC. It would be interesting to read their response to a letter just like the one you posted in the Space Digest. Bob Bruccoleri ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Mar 85 09:57:21 pst From: conrad <@csnet-relay.arpa,@ucsc.CSNET (Al Conrad):conrad@ucsc.CSNET> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Books on orbital mechanics There is a book by King-Hele, I believe it's called "The Effects of an Atmosphere on Satelite Orbits", or something like that, which has a great chapter titled 'Basic Theory' which very elegantly generates the basic equations. Al Conrad Computer and Information Sciences University of California at Santa Cruz conrad@ucsc ucbvax|ucscc|v:conrad 408-429-2370 ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #125 ******************* 30-Mar-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #126 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 126 Today's Topics: Re: star map article effect of SDI Halley's Comet ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rick Coates To: space%mit-mc@tektronix.smtp Date: Thursday, 28 Mar 85 09:45:47 PST Subject: Re: star map article Newsgroups: net.space Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR. Thanks for the offer of the programs - I'd be interested. I don't know if it has come up yet, but if you ever do get the data base, that would be of even greater interest. Why don't you make some mention of USENET in the article? I don't think that that many people (even in the computer field) are aware of what is probably the largest 'bulletin board' around. Rick Coates ...!tektronix!iddic!rick ------------------------------ Message-Id: <8503291518.AA05508@decwrl.ARPA> Date: Friday, 29 Mar 1985 07:16:10-PST From: redford%doctor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford) To: space@mc Subject: effect of SDI I don't want to get into the debate over the pros and cons of Star Wars, because I think that everyone on this list is already familiar with them. Personally I think that SDI is a terrible idea. It's a tribute to the power of the Presidency that anyone takes it seriously at all. But instead of getting into that argument, I would like to talk about the effect of SDI on space development. L5 and Spacepac may already have formulated a position on SDI, but what should that position be? All of us want to see further scientific and commercial activity in space. The question is, will this vast increase in military space activity hinder or aid our real goals? Let me provide one example in favor of military involvement and one against, and then throw the argument open. The US has an extensive research program under way in Antarctica. The research is expensive because of the remote and hostile environment. The government pays for it partly out of a love of basic research, but more out of a desire to keep a foothold on what might be a valuable continent. The bases down there are supplied and built by the military. The US Air Force, at considerable risk to its pilots and planes, is what makes science possible in Antarctica. No university or university consortium could afford the special modifications that planes in Antarctica need, or get pilots with the special training. An example against the military is the Navstar or GPSS global navigation system. This is a satellite system that permits a foot soldier to find his position within ten meters anywhere in the world. The military originally intended it for civilian use as well, but when they discovered just how good it would be, they changed the system so that only those with passwords could get its full accuracy. From their point of view this action was entirely justified; they didn't want enemy soldiers to buy a $200 box from Magnavox and get the same benefits that our own people had. The result, though, is that something that could be of enormous benefit to the American public has been denied to them. Civilian needs gave way before military ones. Now, what will SDI bring? Will its research help civilian efforts for large boosters and manned space stations? Or will civilian research be restricted because of its SDI implications? Will we see another space shuttle screw-up, where the shuttle was enlarged and therefore delayed by military requirements? What do you folks think? John Redford DEC-Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 85 10:34:36 EST From: Andrew V Royappa Message-Id: <8503291534.AA12393@purdue.ARPA> To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Halley's Comet Well, I don't know about you, but I certainly have been waiting a while for Halley's Comet to arrive. Shouldn't it be here this year or the next ? Could anyone give precise dates, and if possible info about locations to watch it from. Thank you, Andrew Royappa @ Purdue ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #126 ******************* 31-Mar-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #127 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 127 Today's Topics: Working in Space - suits and shells Launch Date Set Discovery Rolled to Pad where oh where did all those messages come from Re: SPACE Digest V5 #124 Re: Halley's Comet ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 30 Mar 85 08:01:45 pst Message-Id: <8503301601.AA14856@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: hou5a!trc Subject: Working in Space - suits and shells Re-posting: apparently got "eaten" first time... Space Savants: Question: why are space suits so bulky? Is it primarily thermal insulation? Without that, it would seem reasonably easy to design a light-weight suit that had a sealant layer, then a tough outer protective layer, with joints designed so that bending them doesnt increase or decrease the volume of the suit (to avoid having to fight air pressure to move the limbs of the suit). Suitable vacuum-proof materials would be needed, of course. One way to avoid the need for thermal insulation, and so to allow a "work-suit", would be to build a "thermal work-shell". This would be a huge shell, kept at a temperature such that it radiates in the infrared just enough to balance body infrared radiation loss. Inside the shell, no thermal insulation would be necessary. Since the shell doesnt need to be air-tight, a large hole can be left in the "top" for light, and for moving materials and constructs in and out. Put a "diffuser" over it (perhaps floating outside the hole, in line with the sun) to get better quality lighting - no dark shadows, and less intense light. The shell would be kept at a fairly even temperature by some combination of reflectors and radiators. Some gyros mounted outside could help keep it pointed at the sun. Also, the even thermal condition would help avoid problems with contracting/expanding materials under construction - so that bolt holes line up, etc. The shell could be a sphere or a cylinder, depending on what is easier to make. As a nice touch, paint the inside of the shell to give the impression of just working under water - a sea bottom below, bright sky above, and fluorescent glowing blue-green walls to the sides. This, plus the fact that the view of space is mostly cut off, should help the workers psychologically. An additional benefit of the space shell is that it makes it very difficult to "fall off" into space. If one loses one's grip and floats away, one just waits a few minutes until one hits a wall. Tools are similarly caught. Does this sound reasonable? Been thought of long ago by Werner von Braun? A caveman sketched it with berry juice in a cave somewhere in southern fjance? Constructive criticism and knowledgeable comments are invited. Tom Craver hou5a!trc ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Mar 85 08:11:20 pst Message-Id: <8503301611.AA14959@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: alice!alb Subject: Launch Date Set NASA today set a 12 April launch date for the Discovery launch. Launch time is 0904 EST. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Mar 85 08:20:45 pst Message-Id: <8503301620.AA15060@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Discovery Rolled to Pad The Discovery was rolled to the launch pad today in preparation for its 12 April launch. For nostalgiasts, launch day will be on the fourth anniversary of the launch of STS-1. Challenger, with Spacelab aboard, is scheduled to launch on 29 April, 12 days after Discovery lands. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Mar 85 10:58:43 pst Message-Id: <8503301858.AA15541@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: mordor!jdb (John Bruner) Subject: where oh where did all those messages come from Recently there were a flood of repeated postings to "net.space" from the SPACE mailing list via the gateway on S1-C. Somehow the mailers on S1-A and S1-C were unhappy with each other so that S1-A believed that S1-C rejected the letter when in fact S1-C had accepted it. S1-A kept retrying, producing multiple copies of the same thing. I'm temporarily turning off the SPACE -> net.space portion of the SPACE gateway. I hate debugging "sendmail" (where I suspect the problem is), so it may be a few days before I can get it turned back on again. Postings to "net.space" are still being forwarded to the SPACE mailing list. -- John Bruner (S-1 Project, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory) MILNET: jdb@mordor.ARPA [jdb@s1-c] (415) 422-0758 UUCP: ...!ucbvax!dual!mordor!jdb ...!decvax!decwrl!mordor!jdb ------------------------------ Date: Sat 30 Mar 85 14:46:03-PST From: SPACE@USC-ECL.ARPA Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #124 To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Dear Phil, In answer to your question on Spacepac and SDI, the official position is that there is no position, neither for nor against. Frankly, the civilian space program needs a lot more help than the DoD and that's why we've focused on space station, and to a lesser extent on space commercialization and planetary probes. There are plenty of bigger groups to lobby for and against SDI. We see it as a military policy issue that happens to have a strong space aspect, not something that is especially spac-related. As to the leanings of our supporters, we have people on both sides of the issue, and we have supported candidates on both sides of the issue, provided thay supported civilian space efforts as well. For example, we endorsed both Rep. George Brown (D-CA) and former astronaut Jack Lousma (in an unsucessful Senate race), who are on opposite sides of the SDI issue, but are otehrwise favorable to space development. As for unofficial views within the organization's staff, we feel that a SDI research program is reasonalbe and prudent, while differing over how much money should be spent on such work. Decisions as to actual testing and deployment are, however, another matter. We are not convinced that any immediate deployment (a'la High Frontier positions) is justiofiable or desirable. I hope I've answered your question. Contirbutions to spacepac can be designated to a variety of segregated funds, such as space station lobbying, or Democratic or Republican funds, as well as the general fund. If you have any more questions, please feeeel free to send me a message. This reply can (should?) be passed around the nets, as I feel your question is a common one. Scott Pace Director Public Affairs Spacepac ------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Mar 85 17:32:00 pst Message-Id: <8503310132.AA16458@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: umd5!don Subject: Re: Halley's Comet > From: Andrew V Royappa > > Well, I don't know about you, but I certainly have been > waiting a while for Halley's Comet to arrive. Shouldn't it > be here this year or the next ? Could anyone give precise > dates, and if possible info about locations to watch it from. [] Halley's Comet should be visible this winter until April or May 1986. For the latest up-to-the-minute information on Halley's Comet one may call (long-distance for most) the National Bureau of Standards/ Naval Observatory computer bulletin board (300/1200 baud, even parity) at (202) 653-1079 (Washington, DC) The bulletin board contains press releases and is open to the public. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Space, the final frontier .." Final, hell! It's the ultimate frontier!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -Chris Sylvain ARPA: don@umd5.ARPA BITNET: don%umd5@umd2 CSNET: don@umd5 UUCP: {seismo, rlgvax, allegra, brl-bmd, nrl-css}!umcp-cs!cvl!umd5!don ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #127 ******************* 01-Apr-85 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #128 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 128 Today's Topics: Re: Help Wanted: Books on Orbital Mehchanics Re: oh, where, oh, where have those little stars gone? Re: books on orbital mechanics Re: Re: Re: New orbit of Halley's comet ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 31 Mar 85 06:06:24 pst Message-Id: <8503311406.AA18397@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: wateng!broehl (Bernie Roehl) Subject: Re: Help Wanted: Books on Orbital Mehchanics Try "Fundamentals of Astrodynamics" (sorry, don't have more info handy... my copy's at home). It was the text the USAF was using for a while, I believe. You can probably track it down through "Books in Print". --Bernie Roehl -- -Bernie Roehl (University of Waterloo) ...decvax!watmath!wateng!broehl ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Mar 85 06:00:21 pst Message-Id: <8503311400.AA18327@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: petersen@ucbvax.ARPA (David A. Petersen) Subject: Re: oh, where, oh, where have those little stars gone? > sdcrdcf!alan (Al Algustyniak) Why did this message get sent five times? ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 85 00:12:00 PST From: WOO IL LEE Subject: Re: books on orbital mechanics To: space%mit-mc Reply-To: WOO IL LEE I suggest you have a look at FUNDAMENTALS OF ASTRODYNAMICS by Bate, Mueller and White. It has reasonably good (and compact) chapters on elementary orbital mechanics, orbital maneuvers and interplanetary trajectories. Reflecting the author's background (they are or were faculty at the Air Force Academy) it has intriguiging material on orbit determination from ground observation, prediction of future position, interception and ballistic missile trajectories. And best of all, it's a Dover paperback, which means it costs only a fraction of most other such books, should you want to add it to your library. However, if you're more interested in a short introduction to to the estimation of the vehicle delta vee requirements for a given mission, you might want to look at Chap. 5 ("Flight Performance") of Sutton and Ross' classic ROCKET PROPULSION ELEMENTS. An excellent textbook and reference book has been published by Delft Univ. Press, but I can't remember its title right now. Quite complete and goes in depth but an order of magnitude more expensive than the Dover book (when you're on a grad student's budget...) Emilio P. Calius Stanford Univ. ------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Apr 85 00:27:32 pst Message-Id: <8504010827.AA21609@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: utastro!nather (Ed Nather) Subject: Re: Re: Re: New orbit of Halley's comet The McDonald data, now reduced, agree with data from both Hawaii & Hale; however, the Flagstaff data, with somewhat larger errors, still suggest it can miss by a fair margin. There is always a small but finite chance some fault-line might be triggered into an earthquake, but no worse than that. In the event of a grazing encounter with our atmosphere (still *very* subject to measurement error) artificial cyclonic activity could become a serious problem but we don't know how to model that. Impact is considered highly unlikely in any event. What is of far greater astronomical interest, of course, is what caused the huge orbital perturbation in the first place. If, as Burbidge suggested, it was caused by Nemesis, then Halley cannot be the x-ray source found nearby -- it just is not massive enough to be a black hole. If the data in hand can be refined (and new data obtained in a few weeks), then we can say, with far greater assurance, whether Halley will pass on the sunward side or not -- the spectroscopists hope so, naturally. We *do* know all observatories have been alerted to either possibility and are making their plans accordingly. Regardless of which side it passes on, it will be a spectacular show, but its orbital inclination and high closing velocity give our instrumentalists a lot less time than we had hoped. Even so, we expect we can have, at worst, 1 or 2 new daylight photometers ready to go. :%s/^./& / -- Ed Nather Astronony Dept, U of Texas @ Austin {allegra,ihnp4}!{noao,ut-sally}!utastro!nather ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #128 ******************* 02-Apr-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #129 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 129 Today's Topics: paper airplanes in space Mock Countdown Successful Re: Voyager 2/Uranus and spacesuits ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 1 Apr 85 12:07:38 est From: Paul Anderson Message-Id: <8504011707.AA06504@nrl-css> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: paper airplanes in space A few Digests ago, somebody poses the question as to what would happen to the flight of paper airplanes in non-gravity environments. I would like to recommend that when the Space Shuttle goes up next week, that Sen. Jake Garn take up a few sheets of paper (excess bureaucratic regulations, preferably) and try it out inside the Shuttle. If possible, somebody might even try flying them outside the ship while taking a space walk. Who knows? Maybe we will find out some interesting information, such as: 1. The true aeronautic qualities of various shapes of airfoils in a weightless environment 2. The different qualities of the same airfoil shape with different thicknesses of paper 3. An easier, simpler, and cheaper method of shooting down enemy satellites and missiles (hit them with bureaucratic regulations, literally!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Apr 85 19:52:19 pst Message-Id: <8504020352.AA03276@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Mock Countdown Successful The crew of the Discovery today performed a flawless mock countdown in preparation for the 12 April launch. The simulated liftoff came at 0800 EST. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Apr 85 22:26:14 pst Message-Id: <8504020626.AA03736@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ames!eugene (Eugene Miya) Subject: Re: Voyager 2/Uranus and spacesuits > Can someone on the net tell us something about Voyager's health? I am surprised no one from jpl-vlsi answered this one. I just spoke to old friends on the project[just for the Net]. They describe Voyager as creaking along. The major damage [which is difficult to access, by the way] is due to radiation. They are not certain of the degree, and this is a major problem. Part has to do with the electronics [avionics?], computer memories, the optics on some instruments have some damage [lenses are somewhat tinted (but you won't notice this on images), etc.]. There were communications problems early in the mission, but the initial note covered this. Several other systems are working on backup mode, etc. On Space suits, a different posting. We have a couple here. The typical suit here has about 20 layers of fabric each for different purposes: thermal, chemical reactivity (teflon in this case), pressure, etc. They are thinking about more advanced suits [not here] but the newer generation of non-custom suits has to get more flying time before new designs get considered and bugs get shaken out of the current designs. Personal note: my casts are off and replaced with braces on my arm and leg. --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,vortex}!ames!aurora!eugene emiya@ames-vmsb.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #129 ******************* 03-Apr-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #130 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 130 Today's Topics: Lofstrom loops star catalogue ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message-Id: <8504021834.AA01140@decwrl.ARPA> Date: Tuesday, 2 Apr 1985 10:25:27-PST From: redford%doctor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford) To: space@mc Subject: Lofstrom loops I just finished reading "Heechee Rendezvous" by Frederick Pohl. It's a science fiction novel, but it mentions someone that used to be on this list. Keith Lofstrom, are you out there? Lofstrom had a really clever scheme for lofting things into orbit. If you take a cable and get it moving at orbital velocities, it will actually lift itself up off the ground. The 'centrifugal' force of the cable will counteract that of gravity, and the cable will go into a sort of mini-orbit. If the cable is tied into a loop, and you have turn-arounds at the two ends of the loop, then the middle of the cable can rise up to low earth orbit heights. A payload is attached to the cable with magnets (not physically touching, of course) and whooshed up into space. Pohl calls them Lofstrom loops, and in his novel they are the main means of getting into space. They sound much more practical than orbital towers because they don't need to support 22,000 miles of their own weight. However, they still have the tower advantage of not needing reaction mass to get up into orbit. Lofstrom described them in an article in Analog a couple of years ago, and mentioned that he was working on a demo system. Does anyone out there know what became of it? It sounds like a great idea, even if there are concerns about what happens if the cable breaks. John Redford ------------------------------ From: Message-Id: <8504030656.AA23041@cod.ARPA> Date: Tue, 2 Apr 85 20:16:43 PST To: bang!ccohesh@berkeley Subject: star catalogue Cc: bang!space@mit-mc Hesh - many thanks, but the Yale Catalog of Bright Stars contains very *few* of the 200+ stars closest to earth (maybe a dozen or so). This is because most of the stars close to earth are dim. I've already tracked down a number of sources; I appreciate your time and effort. ..bruce.. Bruce Webster/BYTE Magazine bang!crash!bwebster@nosc {ihnp4 | sdcsvax!bang}!crash!bwebster P.S. For the rest of you: haven't forgotten you; I'll try to get the article out ASAP. bfw. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #130 ******************* 04-Apr-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #131 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 131 Today's Topics: Re: oh, where, oh, where have those little stars gone? Re: Re: Re: New orbit of Halley's comet Re: SDI Offensive ? Re: Comet Halley Re: Re: oh, where, oh, where have those little stars gone? Re: effect of SDI ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 3 Apr 85 07:42:01 pst Message-Id: <8504031542.AA02356@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ssc-vax!atst (Tom Pace) Subject: Re: oh, where, oh, where have those little stars gone? > > sdcrdcf!alan (Al Algustyniak) 15 copies of this message arrived at this site on 4/1/85. Will someone please fix! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Apr 85 17:13:55 cst From: Henry F Turner To: space-network-source@mit-mc.csnet, utastro!nather@lsu.CSNET Subject: Re: Re: Re: New orbit of Halley's comet We didn't see the original article, if there was one. I feel like a fool responding to what I suspect is an April Fools joke but, what the hell, what IS this about? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Apr 85 17:35:05 pst Message-Id: <8504040135.AA01057@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: SDI Offensive ? > ...I > wouldn't be surprised if offensive space weapons are already in the works, and > those who are concerned about their undermining the present nuclear peace, or > about the growth of military operations in space, should be on guard. I hate to tell you this, but offensive space weapons already exist. They are called "ballistic missiles", and they spend all but the first few seconds and the last few seconds of their *working* lives in space. They're dangerous, and should be banned. A bit late for that, though... -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Apr 85 17:36:34 pst Message-Id: <8504040136.AA01078@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: drusd!phl Subject: Re: Comet Halley >Well, I don't know about you, but I certainly have been >waiting a while for Halley's Comet to arrive. Shouldn't it >be here this year or the next ? Could anyone give precise >dates, and if possible info about locations to watch it from. >Andrew Royappa @ Purdue COMET HALLEY TIMETABLE (Thanks to: Orion Telescope Center) OCT82 First observatory photo at one billion miles from earth. NOV84 First observatory visual observation. AUG85 First expected sighting through larger amateur scopes at new moon. SEP85 Well placed for moderately large amateur scopes. OCT85 Within range of smaller scopes and large binoculars. Tail partially visible through larger amateur scopes. NOV85 Visible all night with scopes and binoculars. First likely appearance of tail with smaller instruments. DEC85 First expected naked-eye observations. Wide field scopes should show tail about 4X the diameter of the full moon. JAN86 Comet disappears behind sun toward end of month. FEB86 Tail reappears above morning horizon towards end of month. MAR86 Bright head and long tail rises above horizon. APR86 Best month for naked-eye viewing. Comet will be low in the south for viewers in the northern hemisphere. Pick a remote, dark location for viewing. MAY86 Head becomes largest as tail shrinks to narrow line. Invisible to naked- eye viewers by end of month. AUG86 Visible only with large amateur instruments. Add seventy-six years and try again. |-) - Phil ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Apr 85 17:47:37 pst Message-Id: <8504040147.AA01207@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: umd5!don Subject: Re: Re: oh, where, oh, where have those little stars gone? > From: hao!hplabs!sdcrdcf!alan@seismo.ARPA (Alan Algustyniak) > I am interested in getting a copy of your program and start list. > sdcrdcf!alan (Al Algustyniak) [] This is a flame of sorts ... I would post it in net.flame, but I really think that something is wrong here. THIS SITE HAS RECEIVED A TOTAL OF ABOUT 35 REPEATS OF THE ABOVE POSTING !! We received 20 in one day ! Enough is enough. Please someone tell us all -- is there some terrible problem here, or is Alan posting the message over and over ?? -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Space, the final frontier .." Final, hell! It's the frontier of frontiers !! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -==- IDIC -==- (Thanks Bob!) SPOKEN: Chris Sylvain ARPA: don@umd5.ARPA BITNET: don%umd5@umd2 CSNET: don@umd5 UUCP: {seismo, rlgvax, allegra, brl-bmd, nrl-css}!umcp-cs!cvl!umd5!don ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Apr 85 19:38:47 pst Message-Id: <8504040338.AA01697@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: faron!wdr (William D. Ricker) Subject: Re: effect of SDI >From: redford%doctor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford) >Let me provide one example in favor of military involvement and one against, >and then throw the argument open. . . . >An example against the military is the Navstar or GPS global navigation system. >This is a satellite system that permits a foot soldier to find his position >within ten meters anywhere in the world. The military originally intended it >for civilian use as well, but when they discovered just how good it would be, >they changed the system so that only those with passwords could get its full >accuracy. From their point of view this action was entirely justified; they >didn't want enemy soldiers to buy a $200 box from Magnavox and get the same >benefits that our own people had. The result, though, is that something that >could be of enormous benefit to the American public has been denied to them. ***** ** ** ******** ******* >Civilian needs gave way before military ones. John, At least they're making a lower accuracy available to the public. That is revolutionarily open-minded for the military to begin with. KAL-007 could have benefited from the civilian-grade NAVSTAR receiver (assuming they weren't there intentionally...). I don't think a $200 receiver tied to a $1000 computer which translates Lat-Lon into street addresses qualifies as "enormous benefit". Could you explain to me why the American Public needs military accuracy? I wouldn't use 10m [your figure] GPS for landing an air-craft if I had it. I'm not sure what I'd use that granularity for; it won't tell me which side of the street I'm on, or which way to the nearest foxhole, but is much finer grain than I need to know which way is Cambridge, and which sector of the map I'm on. (If the map has features smaller than 10m, I'd ***** well better be able to figure out which one I'm on.) In short, I don't see how limiting civilian use of GPS to lower resolution (does anyone have figures for both modes they can publish?) has cut off any potential uses THAT SERIOUSLY AFFECT THE PUBLIC GOOD. I will agree, hypothetically, that to deny all GPS access would have been very dog-in-the-manger, but they compromised. Near as I can tell, we don't even HEAR about the technologies they're really depriving us of. -- William Ricker wdr@faron.UUCP (UUCP) decvax!genrad!linus!faron!wdr (UUCP) {allegra,ihnp4,utzoo,philabs,uw-beaver}!linus!faron!wdr (UUCP) Opinions are my own and not necessarily anyone elses. Likewise the "facts". ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #131 ******************* 05-Apr-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #132 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 132 Today's Topics: Geostar ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1985 11:16 EST Message-ID: From: Dean Sutherland To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Geostar Some months ago I heard about Geostar (O'Neill's global positioning system company). Does anyone know anything about them? Are they still in business? Dean F. Sutherland sutherland@tartan ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #132 ******************* 06-Apr-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #133 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 133 Today's Topics: Hail Columbia! re: Geostar ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 5 Apr 85 05:46 PST From: TERRY%LAJ.SAINET.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Hail Columbia! To: SPACE-ENTHUSIASTS@MIT-MC.ARPA Does anyone out there know why Columbia has been flying so little of late? I should have checked this out first, but if my memory is approximately correct, Columbia was laid off for over a year after taking Spacelab up over a year and a half ago, and has flown only one mission since then. Challenger and Discovery have been getting all the work; and now I see that Challenger is taking up the Spacelab this time... Terry ------------------------------ Message-Id: <8504051402.AA20424@decwrl.ARPA> Date: Friday, 5 Apr 1985 05:54:15-PST From: redford%doctor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford) To: space@mc Subject: re: Geostar The last I heard of O'Neill's satellite navigation system was when they went before the FCC asking for 100 MHz of spectrum space somewhere. A hundred megahertz is a lot, and I haven't heard if the FCC gave it to them. They have also been stirring up trouble at the FAA. The FAA has an elaborate guidance system plan that they will soon start putting in place, and many people are grumbling that they ought to skip all this expensive ground stuff and go straight to satellites. By the way, Geostar is not a global positioning system; it's only intended for North America. It requires having several satellites in Clarke orbits watching one part of the globe for signals from airplane transmitters. John Redford ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #133 ******************* 13-Apr-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #134 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 134 Today's Topics: Bboard activity; lack of SDI offensive?!? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri,12 Apr 85 03:24:58 EST From: Christopher C. Stacy To: SPACE-TEST@MIT-MC Message-ID: <[MIT-MC].452536.850412.CSTACY> Test 1. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 12 Apr 1985 08:46-EST From: nsc@Mitre-Bedford To: space@mit-mc Cc: nsc@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Bboard activity; lack of I haven't seen a SPACE Digest in days. Did I get unplugged? Is this a statement about military in space??? Naval Space Command nsc at Mitre-Bedford ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 85 11:17:00 mst From: jlg@LANL.ARPA (Jim Giles) Message-Id: <8504121817.AA14163@b.ARPA> To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: SDI offensive?!? > While I don't believe that SDI (aka Star Wars) would solve the > problem of nuclear defense even if it lived up to Reagan's wildest hopes, > which it almost surely will not, I suspect that research into SDI may lead > to some interesting (from a military point of view) offensive weapons. Six > years ago, I worked in the military energy group a company whose specialty > was analysis of the "Soviet Threat." At that time, there was a good deal of > interest in using high energy lasers ("HELs" as everbody refered to them) > as tactical weapons. I saw at least one paper that outlined a system using > very large lasers on space platforms as space-to-air defensive and space- > to-surface offensive weapons. The virtues of such a system are that it > could destroy large tactical or small strategic targets (ships, > communication facilities, missle silos) "surgically" - i.e. without damage > to surrounding structures. No blast, no radiation. The above paragraph is self contradictory. If the SDI stuff is powerful and accurate enough to 'surgically' destroy ships, aircraft, or missile silos, then it would be more than adequate to live up to "Reagan's wildest hopes" - or at least the hopes of most proponents. On the other hand, if SDI doesn't work for its stated mission, it clearly won't be able to hit small, moving, or shielded ground and air targets either. In fact, since the goals of SDI don't include hitting ground or air targets, the proposed systems are not designed to penetrate atmosphere at all. If you don't think SDI will work then you needn't worry about offensive weapons of this type either. Even the assumption that SDI will work doesn't imply that offensive weapons are possible since there is still the atmosphere to contend with. J. Giles ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #134 ******************* 16-Apr-85 1105 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #135 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 135 Today's Topics: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #124 Shuttle TV info Where has Columbia gone Some shuttle questions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat 13 Apr 85 20:16:02-PST From: Rand Simberg Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #124 To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA, SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: SIMBERG@USC-ECL.ARPA ------- ------------------------------ To: space@mit-mc cc: iglesias@uci-icsa Subject: Shuttle TV info Date: 15 Apr 85 08:09:36 PST (Mon) From: iglesias@uci-icsa Can someone tell me the sattelite that the shuttle TV is rebroadcast on? We're getting cable in our area and I want to see if the cable company will carry it. Thanks. Mike Iglesias University of California, Irvine ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 85 15:25:52 pst From: Chuck Collins Message-Id: <8504152325.AA07067@amelia.ARPA> To: SPACE@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Where has Columbia gone Someone posted a request recently about what has happened to the Columbia orbiter. According to Aviation Week 4/15/85, p. 21, it is being refitted in Plamfate by Rockwell. The mods include a new nosecap (reinforced carbon- carbon), a leeside temperature sensing pod, and alterations on the payload bay liner. An old shuttle mission schedule (6/25/84) had Mission 51G scheduled for Columbia, to take place 5/30/85. Clearly this has slipped, since the refitting is "expected to be completed by the end of June". The mission schedule then has Columbia very active, on Missions 51I, 61A, 61C and 61E. Chuck Collins cpc@ames-nas {ihnp4,hplabs}!ames!amelia!cpc ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 85 15:47:49 pst From: Chuck Collins Message-Id: <8504152347.AA07480@amelia.ARPA> To: SPACE@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Some shuttle questions "net.columbia" may be more appropriate for these questions, but I don't receive it, so I'm sending them here. This latest mission has caused me to speculate about emergencies in a mission, particularly now that we are sending up VIPs. If a shuttle couldn't de-orbit, and was still viable, would a rescue mission be attempted? With this particular mission, another shuttle is close to being ready. Would they? Could they? Once the two shuttles have made a rendezvous, do they have facilities for moving people from one to another? The problem with the electrical failure on the satellite on this mission has actually answered some of my questions. Apparently the shuttle contains at least one suit for EVAs. Are there MMUs as well, even when the mission doesn't have a planned EVA? When someone does go outside, is every shuttle fitted with an airlock, or is the entire flight deck de-pressurized? Thanks for any light people out there can shed on this. Chuck Collins cpc@ames-nas {ihnp4,hplabs}!ames!amelia!cpc ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #135 ******************* 18-Apr-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #136 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 136 Today's Topics: Shuttle Rescues Re: Shuttle Rescues space station - two stories ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Apr 85 16:27:25 EST From: Joe Pistritto To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Shuttle Rescues Every shuttle has an airlock (depressurizing the entire flight deck would have bad effects on the materials processing experiments stored there). They DO drop the pressure from the nominal value before going EVA however, (I heard discussion of the effect of this on the pharmacutical experimeent onboard this mission). I think it may go from five psi to three psi or something. The airlock is on the lower deck (downstairs relative to the cockpit), and leads out into the payload bay (they attach the tunnel for SpaceLab to the outside of the airlock). I HOPE they have the capability to dismantle this during a SpaceLab equipped mission (perhaps the entire SpaceLab can be depressurized and used as an airlock in an emergenct?). There was some discussion within NASA of placing a simple reel-out cable in the payload bay for attachment to a rescuing shuttle so the crew could go hand over hand to the other ship. Crude but effective, and it doesn'T require using an MMU (other than to attach it to begin with, which could be done by the rescuing shuttle's crew). Now that there are always a couple shuttles hanging around KSC, I suspect that one could be launched on about 3 days notice (an in-orbit shuttle can last at least that long, they're supposed to have a maximum mission duration of 14 days or something like that). You have to consider that the ground crews would be highly motivated, and getting three shifts a day on the problem could reduce the turn around time considerably. -JCP- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 85 17:38:23 cst From: Hubert Daugherty Message-Id: <8504172338.AA08652@cleo> To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Hello, Please add me to the net list for the space sig. hd@rice.arpa Rice University 713 527-4035 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 85 19:39:20 pst From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) Message-Id: <8504180339.AA03321@ucbkim.ARPA> To: jcp@BRL-TGR.ARPA, Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Re: Shuttle Rescues Cc: I presume that NASA has pressure suits (space suits) aboard for the entire crew on each flight. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 85 2344 PST From: Ron Goldman Subject: space station - two stories To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA n046 1130 15 Apr 85 BC-NASA (Newhouse 003) Analysis By RANDY QUARLES Newhouse News Service WASHINGTON - Congressional supporters of a proposed manned space station sometimes worried that things were going too smoothly for them, and a recent House action proved them right. By an overwhelming 369-36 tally, the House recently voted to reduce by almost $400 million President Reagan's $7.89 billion 1986 budget plan for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. This would cap NASA expenditures at the current level. Rep. Bruce A. Morrison, D-Conn., said his freeze amendment is a deficit-cutting measure. The House vote wasn't aimed directly at the space station, or any other NASA program. The House left it up to NASA to decide how - or, more importantly, where - to cut. NASA spokeswoman Barbara Selby said that the agency hasn't ''precisely'' determined what it will do if the Senate eventually accepts the House freeze. ''We would have to go back and evaluate it,'' said Selby. However, she said, ''It would have a major impact on all of NASA's programs. We're assuming that something would come out of all of them. ... Each pot would have to give up a little.'' So it seems unlikely that the space station - intended to be operational in the 1990s - would emerge intact from such a freeze. With the space shuttle moving toward full operating capability and the science community already complaining about a dearth of new scientific projects, cutting either of these programs to spare the space station budget would be difficult to justify. Many scientists haven't been too thrilled about the space station, anyway, both because they question its usefulness and because they are concerned that the overall $8 billion project will push needed science projects out of the budget. Their opposition has been muted due to NASA's assurances that it won't rob from science to pay for the station. But any reduction in the proposed 1986 space station budget as it now stands is likely to be felt keenly, because Reagan himself already has trimmed $50 million from the agency's original $280 million space station request. According to various estimates, the administration's cut alone added anywhere from three months to a year to development plans. In 1984, the administration anticipated space station deployment in the early 1990s. But this year the talk has shifted to a mid-1990s operational date. The House action could hurt NASA even more. The budget authorization freeze is a spending ceiling. When the actual appropriations are approved, NASA could end up with even less funding. In the Senate, the NASA authorizing subcommittee recently wrapped up its own budget hearings and has not yet set a date for ''marking up'' a bill. A subcommittee aide said that while he had heard no talk thus far among the panel's members about a possible freeze, the one-sided House action could carry a lot of weight with the senators. Although the space station and other programs are expected to be pinched, one of the freeze's major casualties could be a plan to keep space shuttle production lines open for another year by spending an extra $45 million on ''structural spares.'' The House Science and Technology Committee, unconvinced by the administration's argument that only four shuttle orbiters are needed, shifted money around in Reagan's original budget request to provide the $45 million. If shuttle production lines close, committee members said, the cost of a fifth orbiter would skyrocket. BJ END QUARLES (DISTRIBUTED BY THE NEW YORK TIMES NEWS SERVICE) n098 1905 16 Apr 85 AM-SPACESTATION By THOMAS C. HAYES c.1985 N.Y. Times News Service LOS ANGELES - The National Aeronautics and Space Administration has put in place the final pieces of the first part of an $8 billion program for a manned station in space by awarding two $27 million design contracts. The contracts were awarded Monday to the McDonnell Douglas Corp. and the Rockwell International Corp. Jeff Fister, a McDonnell Douglas spokesman, said the two companies would be among those competing for a $3 billion contract from the space agency, scheduled to be awarded in early 1987, to build the basic structure of the 400-foot-long space station. The space agency said Tuesday that the Canadian government had appropriated $8.8 million for the first year of its participation in a study of a construction and servicing system for the space station. An agreement between the space agency and the Canadian government calls for a sharing of information on the skace station for the next two years. Similar agreements are expected to be announced with a group of European nations in late April and with the Japanese government on May 9 in Tokyo, according to the space agency. The contracts awarded Monday call for McDonnell Douglas and Rockwell to design the basic framework of the space station, two manned modules outfitted as the crew's living quarters, robot arms for manipulating spacecraft and equipment and docking facilities for the space shuttle. Construction of the space station is expected to take from six months to a year and as many as eight trips by the space shuttle. ''The space station really needs to be thought about as a national laboratory or research center,'' said Robert F. Thompson, a vice president at McDonnell Douglas and the former manager of the NASA's space shuttle program. McDonnell Douglas and Rockwell said they had put together teams of about 200 people to do the preliminary design work for the contracts awarded. The major subcontractors working with McDonnell Douglas include the International Business Machines Corp., for computer and information management on the space station; the RCA Corp. for communications and tracking capability, and Honeywell Inc. for stabilization and automatic controls. Rockwell's associates include the Grumman Corp., the Sperry Corp., the Harris Corp., Intermetrics Inc. and SRI International. Mark Hess, a NASA spokesman, said the space agency hoped to attract several business customers for the space station, for both experiments and production in such areas as pharmaceuticals and semiconductors. Thompson said that McDonnell Douglas has been working on a process for eight years to separate and purify proetins and hormones in gravity-free conditions. The company is working with Johnson & Johnson to identify pharmaceuticals that could be produced efficiently on the space station. ''The station offers an opportunity to generate these types of materials in a way that is not possible in the same quanities and purities that would make it a practical business here on earth,'' he said. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #136 ******************* 19-Apr-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #137 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 137 Today's Topics: Apollo 13 Re: Shuttle Rescues ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18-Apr-85 10:09 PST From: William Daul - Augmentation Systems - McDnD Subject: Apollo 13 To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.arpa Message-ID: What is the best book on the Apollo 13 flight? Today is the anniversary of the return of Apollo 13 to earth. I heard it was quite a flight after the oxygen tank blew up. Thanks, --Bi// ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Apr 85 15:14:03 pst From: David Smith Message-Id: <8504182314.AA04157@HP-MARS> To: Space-Enthusiasts@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Re: Shuttle Rescues Source-Info: From (or Sender) name not authenticated. > They DO drop the pressure from the nominal value > before going EVA however, (I heard discussion of the effect of this > on the pharmacutical experimeent onboard this mission). I think it > may go from five psi to three psi or something. The shuttle uses a sealevel N2-O2 mix. The suits use 5 psi O2. NASA is talking about developing an 8 psi suit, to get rid of the prebreathing requirement for avoiding the bends. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #137 ******************* 23-Apr-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #138 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 138 Today's Topics: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #137 Apollo 13 etc. book RE SDI Offensive?!? Cooked in space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Apr 85 10:05 EST From: kyle.wbst@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #137 To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: kyle.wbst@Xerox.ARPA re:"What is the best book on the Apollo 13 flight? Today is the anniversary of the return of Apollo 13 to earth. I heard it was quite a flight after the oxygen tank blew up..." ---------- As I recall, Aviation Week & Space Technology had excellent photos and text in issues around that time. You might check those out in a library. ------------------------------ From: pavel.pa@Xerox.ARPA Date: 19 Apr 85 12:00:21 PST Subject: Apollo 13 etc. book To: wbd.tym@office-2.ARPA cc: Space-Enthusiasts@mit-mc.ARPA My favorite book on just about any part of the American space efforts before the Suhttle is a huge tome entitled ``The History of Manned Space Flight'' by David Baker, Ph.D., published by Crown Publishers. It's 544 pages of in-depth text and pictures from ballistic rockets to the Skylab missions. As I said, it's a very big book, about 10 x 14 inches by 1-1/2 inches thick. Very nice. Pavel PS- It's ISBN 0-517-54377-X and lists for $35.00, though I got it for $19.50 on sale... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 85 17:02:17 EST From: John Heimann Subject: RE SDI Offensive?!? To: jlg@lanl.arpa Cc: space@mit-mc.arpa There is an obvious answer to your statement that >If the SDI stuff is powerful and accurate enough to 'surgically' destroy >ships, aircraft, or missle silos, then it would be more than adequate to live >up to "Reagan's wildest hopes" [of building an effective missle defense]. namely, that strategic targets sit still, and can be shot at one at a time. The most serious problem facing SDI is that of C**3, as the military folks say, which is command, control and communications to you and me. An effective defensive system will have to intercept as many as a thousand missles within seconds, or ten thousand warheads within minutes, depending on whether or not the system is designed to intercept in the boost or the terminal launch phase. The targets are small - a fraction of a square meter for a warhead, and move at speeds in excess of 5000 meters per second. Slightly more difficult to hit than a 100 square meter silo that moves at perhaps 10^-3 meter per year, especially when one considers that the warhead is accompanied by several thousand other warheads, decoys, radar-confusing metallic chaff, etc. The degree of coordination required for SDI is so obviously different from that for an offensive system that it would be an affront to the reader's intelligence to describe it further. It is worth pointing out however that a defensive system must intercept nearly all of its targets to be effective, since only one warhead is sufficient to destroy a city (perhaps even a silo if we believe claimed CEP's and kill probabilities for modern warheads). The system could be 99.9% effective, but the one out of a thousand warheads that got through would be so damaging that a 99.9% effective system would be a failure. On the other hand, an offensive system is a success if it destroys any targets at all. John ------------------------------ From: crash!bblue@SDCSVAX.ARPA Message-Id: <8504230413.AA14340@sdcsvax.ARPA> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 85 16:31:30 PST To: space@mit-mc Subject: Cooked in space In the TV mini-series "Space", the last episode showed how the astronauts could be "cooked" by a solar flare. Are the facts close and is this problem a real threat? If it is possible, how are the astronauts protected? --Bill Blue crash!bblue@ucsd ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #138 ******************* 24-Apr-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #139 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 139 Today's Topics: Re: shuttle rescue Re: Apollo 13 termination of subscription Sagan attacks station Re: RE SDI Offensive?!? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Apr 85 12:36 EST From: Chris Jones Subject: Re: shuttle rescue To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Message-ID: <850422173610.255295@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA> I'd be surprised if a shuttle could be launched on three days' notice if its scheduled launch was more than a week away. And, no, there are not space suits on board for the entire crew. There are two suits as I recall, and things called rescue balls (each of which holds one person) for the rest of the crew. It is possible therefore for an entire crew to be transferred elsewhere (another shuttle, for instance) IF that somewhere can get to the disabled shuttle in time. I think the real answer for the immediate future is: don't be in a shuttle when it gets disabled. You'll die. (Note that the disability must be more serious than OMS failure for a shuttle to be stranded in orbit, since the RCS supposedly has the capability to cause a long slow reentry). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 85 12:37 EST From: Chris Jones Subject: Re: Apollo 13 To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Message-ID: <850422173728.018778@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA> I recall reading a book called "Thirteen: The Flight That Failed" a while back. It was very good. Unfortunately, I don't know the author, but that's what card catalogues are for... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <8504231754.AA05981@pacific.ARPA> Date: 23 April 1985 0952-PST (Tuesday) From: kastan@nprdc Reply-To: kastan@NPRDC To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC Subject: termination of subscription Sir Due to an in house decision to eliminate 'waste and fraud' with government equipment, I have been requested to terminate my subscription. Thank you. T. E. Kastan ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 85 16:35:54 EST From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Sagan attacks station To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A Carl Sagan and company are showing their true colors once again in a strong lobbying attempt against the space station funding in the Senate Appropriations committee. One must susspect they are more interested in job security than in the future of the human race. Given the stand the leadership of the Planetary Society seems to be taking, I would like to suggest that others do what I have done, and drop their membership in that organization. I cannot see spending my money in an organization that will use those funds to counter the day and night efforts of myself and others. They may have a pretty magazine, but they are not a prospace organization. They are a special interest lobby group for keeping planetary scientists funded at any cost. I would recommend putting your membership money into one of the REAL space activist organizations. I happen to be biased for my own organization, the L5 Society, but there are others that are also quite good, such as American Astronautical Society (AAS), National Space Institute (NSI), Space Studies Institute (SSI), American Space Foundation (ASF) and Spacepac. Anything is better than supporting the Carl Sagan Fan Club and Personal Lobby Fund. If you want to take more positive action to undercut Carl's efforts, write your own letters to Senator Donald Riegle and Senator Slade Gorton. They are the senate appropriations minority and majority leaders. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 85 16:35:01 pst From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) Message-Id: <8504230035.AA06094@ucbkim.ARPA> To: jheimann@BBNCCS.ARPA, jlg@lanl.ARPA Subject: Re: RE SDI Offensive?!? Cc: space@mit-mc.ARPA >It is worth pointing out however that a defensive system must intercept >nearly all of its targets to be effective, since only one warhead is >sufficient to destroy a city (perhaps even a silo if we believe claimed >CEP's and kill probabilities for modern warheads). The system could be >99.9% effective, but the one out of a thousand warheads that got through >would be so damaging that a 99.9% effective system would be a failure. On >the other hand, an offensive system is a success if it destroys any targets >at all. > John A 99.9% effective system would permit 7 warheads to hit the continental United States. The worst disaster in our history? Certainly. A knockout blow? No way. Unacceptable damage in wartime? You decide. But I'll bet that most Americans, told that in a nuclear war seven US cities or missile silos would be destroyed, would breathe a huge sigh of relief. Rick ps -- is this really a worthwhile topic for space? R. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #139 ******************* 25-Apr-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #140 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 140 Today's Topics: Author of "Thirteen The Flight That Failed" SDI et. al. SDI OFFENSIVE?? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Apr 85 10:08:51 PDT From: Kit Weinrichter To: SPACE-ENTHUSIASTS@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Author of "Thirteen The Flight That Failed" Date: Wed, 24 Apr 85 From: Kit Weinrichter Subject: "Thirteen: The Flight That Failed" To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Message-ID: GQ.KIT@Forsythe at Stanford The Author of this book is Cooper, Henry S.F. The copyright is 1972 by Dial Press. To: SPACE-ENTHUSIASTS@MIT-MC ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 85 14:36 PST From: Tom Perrin To: space%mit-mc@mit-multics Cc: Tom Perrine Subject: SDI et. al. >It is worth pointing out however that a defensive system >must intercept nearly all of its targets to be effective, since only one >warhead is sufficient to destroy a city (perhaps even a silo if we believe >claimed CEP's and kill probabilities for modern warheads).The system could be >99.9% effective, but the one out of a thousand warheads that got through would >be so damaging that a 99.9% effective system would be a failure. On the other >hand, an offensive system is a success if it destroys any targets at all. More correctly, a (nuclear/strategic) offensive system is a F A I L U R E if it destroys any targets, because the sole purpose of strategic nuclear weapons is detterence. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a suicidal fool. More importantly, this leads to the aspect of SDI that is constantly overlooked; SDI is intended to supply the same "product" that the current Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD, love that acronym): DETERRENCE. Like offensive nuclear weapons, if the system is ever used it is a failure (of geo-politics and/or morals of the Eastern block, not of the system itself). The purpose of SDI is not to provide 100% protection to every man, woman and whatnot in the West. It is to provide a deterrent. If the East know that a large percentage of our weaponry will survive a first strike, they will be *much* less likely to launch it. MAD is two people with loaded guns, each afraid of the other; hoping that if the other fires first, they both will die. SDI is two people with loaded guns, AND (imperfect) shields which guarnatee that any wound will not be instantly fatal (perhaps only a flesh wound). However, any discussion of SDI vs. MAD borders on religion; no amount of rhetoric is likely to change another's beliefs. Now can we please get this discussion out of 'space' and into 'weapons-digest' where it belongs. I am *much* ^ 1e6 more interested in the peaceful, commercial uses of space. Tom Perrine p.s. I am actually *against* nuclear weapons in any form, but since they are here; my main goal in life is to survive until I can leave the vicinity of this slightly-crazy planet :-). Hurry up with the Connestoga projects! :-) ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 1985 03:01:36 EST From: DOLANTP@USC-ISI.ARPA Subject: SDI OFFENSIVE?? To: SPACE-ENTHUSIASTS@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: DOLANTP@USC-ISI.ARPA WHILE THE 99.9% EFFECTIVENESS FIGURE FOR SDI MAY BE SUBJECT TO DEBATE, AND MUST BE, ANY PROTECTION MUST BE BETTER THAN NONE. AMERICANS HAVE BEEN VERY FORTUNATE NOT TO HAVE HAD TO FIGHT MODERN WARS ON THEIR (OUR) OWN SOIL, AND THE POPULAR CONCEPTION THAT A SINGLE NUCLEAR DETONATION MEANS THAT THE WESTERN WORLD WILL COLLAPSE IS RIDICULOUS. FOR SEVERAL YEARS WE SET OFF NUCLEAR WEAPONS ON OUR OWN SOIL, LOCATED IN THOSE GOVERNMENT RESERVES WHERE WE ONCE PLANNED TO PUT THE MX. AS TO THE COLLAPSE OF SOCIETY, WHILE THE PHYSICAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL DAMAGE TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WOULD BE TREMENDOUS, CONSIDER THE DAMAGE SUSTAINED BY THE EUROPEANS IN WWII. THE USSR HAD 70,000 (YES, SEVENTY THOUSAND) TOWNS AND VILLAGES DESTROYED BY THE NAZI INVADERS (SOURCE: VOYENNAYA STRATEGIA, BY V.D. SOKOLOVSKIY). THIS WAS THE SIDE THAT WON! WHILE I DON'T LOOK FORWARD (OR EXPECT) TO A RETURN TO PAST WEAPONS TESTING POLICY, THE FEARS ESPOUSED BY UNINFORMED "EXPERTS" IN THE FIELD ONLY CONTRIBUTE TO HYSTERIA AND MISTRUST OF COMPETENT DECISIONMAKERS. THIS LAST GROUP IS NOT MEANT TO INCLUDE ALL FEDERAL SPOKESMEN, OR TO EXCLUDE THOSE OUTSIDE THE GOVERNMENT OR DOD. I'LL SAVE MY COMMENTS ON CARL SAGAN FOR LATER (I HAVE BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF THINGS TO SAY ABOUT HIM). TOM DOLAN ------- ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #140 ******************* 26-Apr-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #141 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 141 Today's Topics: Need addresses for Space organizations Re: SPACE Digest V5 #140 Star Wars Is the Planetary Soceity anti-space station? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Apr 85 15:21:04 EST From: "Martin R. Lyons" <991@NJIT-EIES.MAILNET> To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Need addresses for Space organizations Message-ID: I know this has probabaly been asked a million times by now, and I apologize to those of you who have read/answered this, but here goes... Does anyone have the US Mail (or better, Internet) addresses for those space societies? Namely, L-5, American Astronautical Society (AAS), National Space Institute (NSI), Space Studies Institute (SSI), American Space Foundation (ASF), and Spacepac? Please reply to me personally so this doesn't clutter the digest, when I get the responses, I will summarize and post to the list. As always, thanks in advance! ----- MAILNET: Marty@NJIT-EIES.Mailnet ARPA: Marty%NJIT-EIES.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA or @MIT-MULTICS.ARPA:Marty@NJIT-EIES.Mailnet USPS: Marty Lyons, CCCC/EIES @ New Jersey Institute of Technology, 323 High St., Newark, NJ 07102 (201) 596-2932 "You're in the fast lane....so go fast." ------------------------------ From: Chris McMenomy Message-Id: <8504252348.AA25697@rand-unix.ARPA> Date: 25 Apr 85 15:48:41 PST (Thu) To: Space-Enthusiasts@mit-mc Cc: SPACE@mit-mc, christe@rand-unix Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #140 A friend of mine would like to see the Vandeburg Shuttle launch. Has the date been confirmed (barring disasters)? Where is the best place to view from? --Christe christe@rand-unix ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 85 14:22 EST From: Mills@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Star Wars To: Space@MIT-MC.ARPA Message-ID: <850425192246.409664@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA> I have a hard time believing that many people would feel releived at the idea of "only" seven cities being destroyed. I would say it is a fair quess that more than half of the U.S. population lives in and around these seven. Boston, New York, D.C., Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Seattle. This also ignores the fact that all of our missles hitting the Soviet Union with no hits in the U.S. is very likely enough to start a nuclear winter... John Mills ------------------------------ Message-Id: <8504260317.AA04747@decwrl.ARPA> Date: Thursday, 25 Apr 1985 19:14:42-PST From: redford%doctor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford) To: space@mc, jlr%doctor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Is the Planetary Soceity anti-space station? Far from being dead set against the space station, the Planetary Soceity appears to consider it to be a necessary piece of infrastructure for future space development. Let me quote from Sagan's editorial on the first page of the most recent issue of their magazine, the Planetary Report: "Recent work commissioned by The Planetary Soceity indicates that [manned] missions to the Moon, or the asteroids, or Mars could probably be accomplished in another decade or two - assuming the appropriate sort of orbital 'space station' is already in place - for less than the cost of the Apollo missions, or equivalently, for a few percent of the estimated full deployment cost of the proposed Strategic Defense Initiative." The president of the Planetary Soceity, Louis Friedman ends his article with: "The Planetary Soceity, through its Mars Institute and International Space Cooperation Fund, is now advocating the goal of human flight to Mars. We will follow up the SAIC report [a think-tank feasibility study] with workshops to investigate how international cooperation might influence the mission design, and we will call a conference to discuss the human exploration of Mars. Our members, by supporting these programs, will be initiating the long-dreamed of journey to Mars." Sounds pretty positive to me about man in space. There may be disagreements about just what has priority, but everyone is pushing in the same direction. John Redford DEC-Hudson PS The Planetary Soceity is dead-set against SDI. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #141 ******************* 27-Apr-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #142 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 142 Today's Topics: Space weapons ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Apr 1985 08:34:51-EST From: rachiele@NADC To: space-enthusiasts@mit-mc.arpa Subject: Space weapons Did anyone consider that when both sides have defence to strategic weapons, atomic war will be conceivable (sp?)? "Now that we can survive the retaliation, we can win this war." Jim ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #142 ******************* 29-Apr-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #143 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 143 Today's Topics: Star Wars Need addresses for Space organizations ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 27 Apr 85 22:12:36 pst From: ckaun@aids-unix (Carl Kaun) To: space@mit-mc Subject: Star Wars There are areas of valid controversy concerning SDI, where only opinion and estimation serves to guide decision. These I think are best discussed in another newsgroup, but I am enough struck by a failure to use facts when they are readily available (e.g. in a dictionary or almanac) in John Mill's recent posting to this newsgroup, that I am compelled to respond. > ... I would say it is a fair quess that more than half of the U.S. > population lives in and around these seven. Boston, New York, D.C., > Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Seattle. In fact, together these cities and their surrounding metropolitan areas contain about 34.4 million people, comprising somewhat less than 15% of the total U.S. population of 232.6 million people. Mr. Mills could have gotten the total to 17+% if he had mentioned Dallas/Fort Worth, Philadelphia, and Detroit instead of Boston, D.C., and Seattle. In fact, one must combine the metropolitan areas of the 71 largest such areas in the country to total half of the U.S. population. Nor can one infer that seven warheads would kill this many people, since a metropolitan area is quite extensive, and since there is no predicting which few of the warheads, many targeted on military and other non-civilian targets, might elude a 99.9% effective system. (Of course, it may also be currently argued that a 99.9% effective system is unrealistic.) My point is not to argue the merits of SDI. It is to argue for the use of realistic facts where possible, so that we do not lead ourselves or others astray in carelessness. And I do find I am more interested in discussions about space colonization, or even commercialization, on this newsgroup. Carl Kaun (ckaun@aids-unix) ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 28 Apr 1985 16:54-EDT From: jrv@Mitre-Bedford To: Marty%NJIT-EIES.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA, Marty@NJIT-EIES.Mailnet Cc: SPACE@MIT-MC Subject: Need addresses for Space organizations Hare are two of them: L5 Society, 1060 East Elm, Tucson Arizona 85719, 602-622-6351 SPACEPAC, 2801 B Ocean Park Blvd, Suite S, Santa Monica CA 90405 - Jim Van Zandt ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #143 ******************* 30-Apr-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #144 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 144 Today's Topics: Star Wars SDI Space Development Conference Sagan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Apr 85 09:12 EDT (Mon) From: _Bob To: ckaun@aids-unix (Carl Kaun) Cc: space@mit-mc Subject: Star Wars From: ckaun at aids-unix (Carl Kaun) There are areas of valid controversy concerning SDI, where only opinion and estimation serves to guide decision. These I think are best discussed in another newsgroup, I emphatically agree. There is (and has for some time been) a discussion of this topic on ARMS-D, and I think msgs on this topic should be directed to that list. Judging as a follower of that discussion, this is a topic about which their is dispute about not only the political ideas, but pretty much every level of the technical apparatus too. And to some extent the people attracted to this topic (on both sides) tend to be true believers. So, this subject sort of tends to monopolize the digest where it appears, with lots of long msgs from a relatively few readers. This excludes other topics pretty effectively. So, without being for censorship, I urge the moderator to urge SDI correspondents to submit to ARMS-D, not SPACE. _B ------------------------------ Date: Mon 29 Apr 85 10:42:21-MDT From: Peter Badovinatz Subject: SDI To: space-enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: badoVINATZ@UTAH-20.ARPA There presently is, and has been for quite some time, an extensive discussion of SDI and other assorted "space" weapons on the Arms-Control Digest. Let's keep discussions of such subjects over there. The address is: ARMS-D@MIT-MC Count this as a vote for keeping this group for PEACEFUL uses of space: colonization, exploration, planetary studies etc. Peter R Badovinatz ARPA: badovinatz@utah-20 Univ of Utah CS Dept UUCP: ...!utah-cs!badovin ------- ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 85 19:02:46 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Space Development Conference To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A The following is partial text from the town meeting which occured at the Space Development Conference hosted by L5 and others in DC on Saturday night. If anyone captured the rest, please send it along. The town meeting occured on compuserve. Clarke logged in from Sri Lanka. ++++++++ (30,Arthur C. Clarke) a very pretty display of halley who we hope to see here soon now over ga (30,MODERATOR) Thank you, Dr Clarke... (30,MODERATOR) Dr Sheffield, I understand you have... (30,MODERATOR) some remarks for us as well. ... (30,MODERATOR) The floor is yours, sir! ga (30,SDC) Hello, Arthur and audience... (30,SDC) Wish you were here! (30,SDC) About 1000 of us... (30,SDC) at the Space Development Conference... (30,SDC) sitting with me here .. (30,SDC) are:... (30,SDC) Dr. George Mueller,... (30,SDC) Carolyn Cherryh... (30,SDC) Dr. David Webb... (30,SDC) Fred and Pip Durant... (30,SDC) Sen. Harrison H. Schmitt... (30,SDC) Greetings from all! ga (30,MODERATOR) Thank you, SDC! ... (30,MODERATOR) Would any of the guests you have introduced.... (30,MODERATOR) care to have a word? ga (30,Arthur C. Clarke) ?? (30,MODERATOR) Dr Clarke, ga (30,Arthur C. Clarke) fred has my video tape arrived ga (30,SDC) ==>Fred says that video tape has arrived intact... (30,SDC) and INTELSAT is translating it from European to Steam Radio U.S. standards. ga (30,Arthur C. Clarke) very happy for the benefit of.. (30,Arthur C. Clarke) you all this is my last space lecture ga (30,MODERATOR) We're looking forward to seeing it at NASA Langley, Dr Clarke... (30,MODERATOR) Are there any other remarks from... (30,MODERATOR) the SDC or Sri Lanka.... (30,MODERATOR) before we invite our panel to put their questions... (30,MODERATOR) to our guests? ga (30,SDC) ==>New guest, Dr. Charles Walker, astronaut from the last shuttle mission... (30,SDC) says that he hopes that the tropical storm... (30,MODERATOR) D (30,SDC) he saw approachingSL from Australia has not... (30,SDC) arrived. ga (30,MODERATOR) Can you Confirm, Dr Clarke? ga (30,Arthur C. Clarke) not yet i am happy to say.. (30,Arthur C. Clarke) best to geo mueller and jack schmitt et al ga (30,Arthur C. Clarke) see qabpove ga (30,MODERATOR) If there are no further opening comments... (30,MODERATOR) I would like to procede to... (30,MODERATOR) the questioning phase... (30,MODERATOR) Our panel is signalling me they have many questions to ask! ... (30,MODERATOR) Ready in Sri Lanka and in Washington? ga (30,Arthur C. Clarke) yes ga (30,SDC) OK here. ga (30,MODERATOR) Very well... (30,MODERATOR) Panel question: Mr. Sullivan, ga (30,Nick Sullivan) Hello all!... (30,Nick Sullivan) A question for either guest:... (30,Nick Sullivan) Will living in space become commonplace... (30,Nick Sullivan) for children being born today?... (30,Nick Sullivan) If so, will it be like going to Australian mine country... (30,Nick Sullivan) just to do a job -- or a real "home"? ga (30,SDC) ACC==>ga (30,MODERATOR) Any takers? (30,Arthur C. Clarke) it may be almost as bad as living in nyc ga (30,MODERATOR) (Not *that* bad. PLEASE) ... (30,MODERATOR) Panel question: Mr. Mace, ga (30,Scott Mace) For Dr Clarke and Dr Sheffield... (30,Scott Mace) Are either of you working on... (30,Scott Mace) any fiction projects currently? ga (30,Arthur C. Clarke) yes but i g +++++++ ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 85 19:26:54 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Sagan To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A Regardless of what Sagan may have said in print, he and others are lobbying hard at this moment to make sure the space station and not their pet projects get the knife. I might also add that the NASA budget has just taken a SECOND severe cut, as of Friday night; $300M in addition to the $400M previously cut from the budget. The combined efforts of nearly ALL the other space organizations is lobbying AGAINST his Carl's efforts. We have raised thousands of dollars (and need many many more), mobilized all the space organizations, are starting up the phone tree and ECOM, notifying chapters of all organizations, have set up hundreds of direct visits to DC offices... Folks, this is all out war. If you want there to be any future for yourself and your children, get off your can and DO SOMETHING RIGHT NOW!!! ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #144 ******************* 01-May-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #145 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 145 Today's Topics: SDI defenses & 7 warheads SDI defenses & 7 warheads Japanese-Soviet Space Program attn lunatics attn lunatics ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Apr 85 15:41:32 EDT From: Joe Pistritto To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: SDI defenses & 7 warheads An interesting feature of most proposed SDI system is that they would be most vulnerable to 'overwhelming' by massive #s of missiles. This would tend to indicate that warheads that did get through would be clustered in a geographic region, possibly lessing the 'overall' damage somewhat. Of course, certain regions of the country have clustered targets (such as the Northeast), which would accentuate this effect. The greatest effect, of course, of an SDI is that it would render useless (even at an effectiveness of 80% or so), any military calculations based on destruction of specific targets, forcing the opponent to use other means (such as cruise missiles), or to use truly massive (exponentially massive as effectiveness is increased), numbers of warheads to destroy known targets. Note that all current nuclear scenerio thinking revolvs around destruction of specific classes of targets using specific kinds of weapons. SDI type defenses invalidate all that thinking. -JCP- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 85 13:16:13 pdt Message-Id: <8504302016.AA01550@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: @S1-A.ARPA, @MIT-MC:jcp@BRL.ARPA Sender: mordor!daemon Subject: SDI defenses & 7 warheads Gateway: mordor From: Joe Pistritto An interesting feature of most proposed SDI system is that they would be most vulnerable to 'overwhelming' by massive #s of missiles. This would tend to indicate that warheads that did get through would be clustered in a geographic region, possibly lessing the 'overall' damage somewhat. Of course, certain regions of the country have clustered targets (such as the Northeast), which would accentuate this effect. The greatest effect, of course, of an SDI is that it would render useless (even at an effectiveness of 80% or so), any military calculations based on destruction of specific targets, forcing the opponent to use other means (such as cruise missiles), or to use truly massive (exponentially massive as effectiveness is increased), numbers of warheads to destroy known targets. Note that all current nuclear scenerio thinking revolvs around destruction of specific classes of targets using specific kinds of weapons. SDI type defenses invalidate all that thinking. -JCP- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 85 17:56:28 edt From: glenn@ll-vlsi (Glenn Chapman) Message-Id: <8504302156.AA03336@ll-vlsi.ARPA> To: space@mit-mc Subject: Japanese-Soviet Space Program According to Aerospace Daily (Apr 29 '85) the USSR has invited Japanese officials to visit Moscow later this year to discuss expansion of space technology cooperation. The Russians hinted at at the possibility of making a Japanese astronaut a guest cosmonaut on future space flights. After the long list of very agressive planetary probes plans the Soviets have anounced in the past few weeks the Japanese will probably be quite interested. This is especially true if the space station project runs into long delays as seems quite possible with the $700 million total cuts in NASA's budget made so far this year. Glenn Chapman ------------------------------ From: Message-Id: <8505010138.AA20065@cod.ARPA> Date: Tue, 30 Apr 85 14:01:24 PDT To: crash!noscvax!space@mit-mc Subject: attn lunatics Cc: jholt@Nosc [forwarded from the InterComEx BBS (303) 367-1935 by joe holt] WHAT'S NEW ON THE MOON? ----------------------- (excerpts from a publication by Dr. Bevan M. French, NASA Exterestrial Materials Program) In 1969 over half a billion people witnessed the "impossible" coming true as the first men walked on the Moon. For the next three years people of different nationalities watched as one of the great explorations of human history was displayed. Between 1969 and 72, supported by thousands of scientists on Earth, 12 astronauts explored the surface of the Moon. Protected against the airlessness and the killing heat of the lunar environment, they stayed on the Moon for days and some of them travelled for miles across its surface in Lunar Rovers. They made scientific observations and set up instruments to probe the interior of the Moon. They collected hundreds of pounds of lunar rock and soil, thus beginning the first attempt to decipher the origin and geological history of another world from actual samples of its crust. The initial excitement of new success and discovery has passed. The TV sets no longer show astronauts moving across the sunlit lunar landscape. But on Earth, scientists are only now beginning to understand the immense treasure of new knowledge returned by the Apollo astronauts. The Apollo Program has left us with a large and priceless legacy of lunar materials and data. We now have Moon rocks collected from eight different places on the Moon. The six Apollo landings returned a collection weighing 382 kilograms (843 lbs) and consisting of more than 2000 samples. Two automated Soviet spacecraft named Luna 16 and Luna 20 returned small but important samples totalling about 130 grams (5 oz). Instruments placed on the moon as long ago as 1969 are still detecting moonquakes and meteorite impacts, measuring the Moon's motions and recording the heat flowing out from the inside of the Moon. The Apollo Program also carried out a major effort of photgraphing and analyzing the surface of the Moon. Cameras on the Apollo spacecraft obtained so many accurate photographs that we now have better maps of the Moon than we do of some areas of the Earth. Special detectors near the cameras measured the weak X-rays and radio activity given off by the lunar surface. From these measurements, we have been able to determine the chemical composition of about one quarter of the moon's surface, an area the size of the U.S. and Mexico combined. By comparing the flight data with analyses of returned Moon rocks, we can draw conclusions about the chemical composition and nature of the entire Moon. Thus, in less than a decade, science and the Apollo Program have changed our Moon from an unknown and unreachable object into a familiar world. Is there life on the Moon? -------------------------- Despite careful searching, neither living organisms nor fossil life have been found in any lunar samples. The lunar rocks were so barren of life that the quarantine period for returned astronauts was dropped after the third Apollo landing. The Moon has no water of any kind, either free or chemically combined in the rocks. Water is a substance that is necessary for life and it is therefore unlikely that life could ever have originated on the Moon. Furthermore, lunar rocks contain only tiny amounts of the carbon and carbon compounds out of which life is built and most of this carbon is not native to the Moon but is brought to the lunar surface in meteorites and as atoms blasted out of the Sun. What is the Moon made of? ------------------------- Before the first Moon rocks were collected, we could analyze only two types of bodies in our solar system, our own planet Earth and the meteorites that occasionally fall to Earth from outer space. Now we have learned that the Moon is chemically different from both of these, but it is most like the earth. The Moon is made of rock. The rock is so much like Earth rocks in its appearance that we can use the same terms to describe both. The rocks are igneous, which means that they are formed by the cooling of molten lava. (No sedimentary rocks like limestone or shale, which are deposited in water have ever been found on the Moon.) The dark regions (called "maria") that form the features of the "Man in the Moon" are low, level areas covered with layers of basalt lava, a rock similar to the lavas that erupt from terrestrial volcanoes in Hawaii, Iceland, and elsewhere. The light colored parts of the Moon (called "highlands") are higher, more rugged regions that are older than the maria. These areas are made up of several different kinds of rocks that cooled slowly deep within the Moon. Again using terrestrial terms, we call these rocks gabbro, norite and anorthosite. Despite these similarities, Moon rocks and Earth rocks are basically different and it is easy to tell them apart by analyzing their chemistry or examining them under a microscope. The most obvious difference is Moon rocks have no water at all while most Earth rocks contain at least a percent or two of water. The Moon rocks are therefore very well preserved since they never were able to react with water to form clay minerals or rust. A 3 1/2 billion year old Moon rock looks fresher than water bearing lava just erupted from a terrestrial volcano. Another important difference is that the Moon rocks formed where there was almost no free oxygen. As a result, some of the iron in lunar rocks was not oxidized when the lunar lavas formed and still occurs as small crystals of metallic iron. Because Moon rocks have never been exposed to water or oxygen, any contact with the Earth's atmosphere could "rust" them badly. For this reason, the returned Apollo samples are carefully stored in an atmosphere of dry nitrogen, and no more of the lunar material than necessary is exposed to the laboratory atmosphere while the samples are being analyzed. The Moon rocks are made of the same chemical elements that make up Earth rocks, although the proportions are different. Moon rocks contain more of the common elements calcium, aluminum and titanium than do most earth rocks. Rarer elements like hafnium and zirconium, which have high melting points are also more plentiful in lunar rock. However, other elements like sodium and potassium, which have low melting points are scarce in lunar material. Because Moon rocks are richer in high temperature elements and contain less low temperature elements, scientists believe that the materials that formed the Moon was once heated to much higher temperatures than material that formed the Earth. The chemical composition of the Moon also is different in different places. Soon after the Moon formed, various elements sorted themselves out to form different kinds of rock. The light colored highlands are rich in calcium and aluminum, while the dark colored maria contain less of those elements and more titanium, iron, and magnesium. What is the inside of the Moon like? ------------------------------------ Sensitive instruments placed on the lunar surface by the Apollo astronauts are still recording the tiny vibrations caused by meteorite impacts on the surface of the Moon and by small "moonquakes" deep within it. These vibrations provide the data from which scientists determine what the inside of the Moon is like. About 3000 moonquakes are detected each year. All of them are very weak by terrestrial standards. The average moonquake releases about as much energy as a firecracker, and the whole Moon releases less than one ten billionth of the earthquake energy of the Earth. The moonquakes occur about 600 to 800 kilometers (370 to 500 mi) deep inside the Moon, much deeper than almost all the quakes on our own planet. Certain kinds of moonquakes occur at about the same time every month, suggesting that they are triggered by repeated tidal strains as the moon moves in its orbit about the Earth. A picture of the inside of the Moon has slowly been put together from the records of thousands of moonquakes, meteorite impacts, and the deliberate impacts of discarded Apollo rocket stages onto the Moon. The Moon is not uniform inside, but is divided into a series of layers just as the Earth is, although the layers of the Earth and Moon are different. The outermost part of the Moon is a crust about 60 Km (37 mi) thick, probably composed of calcium and aluminum rich rocks like those found in the highlands. Beneath this crust is a thick layer of denser rock (the mantle) which extends down to more than 800 Km (500 mi). The deep interior of the Moon is still unknown. The Moon may contain a small iron core at its center, and there is some evidence that the Moon may be hot and even partly molten inside. The Moon does not now have a magnetic field like the Earth's and so the most baffling and unexpected result of the Apollo program was the discovery of preserved magnetism in many of the old lunar rocks. One explanation is that the Moon had an ancient magnetic field that somehow disappeared after the old lunar rocks had formed. One reason we have been able to learn so much about the Moon's interior is that the instruments placed on the Moon by the Apollo astronauts have operated much longer than expected. Some of the instruments originally designed for a one year lifetime, have been operating since 1969-70. This long operation has provided information that we could not have obtained from shorter records. The long lifetime of the heat flow experiments set up by the Apollo 15 and 17 missions has made it possible to determine more accurately the amount of heat coming out of the Moon. This heat flow is a basic indicator of the termperature and composition of the inside of the Moon. The new value, about two thirds of the value calculated from earlier data, is equal to about one third the amount of heat now coming out of the inside of the Earth. As a result, we can now produce better models of what the inside of the Moon is like. As they probed the lunar interior, the Apollo instruments have provided information about the space environment near the Moon. For example, the sensitive devices used to detect moonquakes have also recorded the vibrations caused by the impacts of small meteorites onto the lunar surface. We now have long term records of how often meteorites strike the Moon, and we have learned that these impacts do not always occur at random. Some small meteorites semm to travel in groups. Several such swarms, composed of meteorities weighing a few pounds each struck the Moon in 1975. The detection of such events is giving scientists new ideas about the distribution of meteorites and cosmic dust in the solar system. The long lifetime of the Apollo instruments has also made several cooperative projects possible. For example, our instruments were still making magnetic measurements at several Apollo landing sites when, elsewhere on the moon, the Russians landed similar instruments attached to their two automated lunar roving vehicles (Lunokhods). By making simultaneous measurements and exchanging data, American and Russian scientists have not only provided a small example of international cooperation in space, but they have jointly obtained a better picture of the magnetic properties of the Moon and the space around it. What is the Moon's surface like? -------------------------------- Long before the Apollo Program scientists could see that the Moon's surface was complex. Earth based telescopes could distinguish the level of maria and the rugged highlands. We could recognize countless circular craters, rugged mountain ranges, and deep winding canyons or rilles. Because of the Apollo explorations, we have now learned that all these lunar landscapes are covered by a layer of fine broken up powder and rubble about 1 to 20 meters (3 to 60 ft) deep. This layer is usually called the "lunar soil," although it contains no water or organic material and it is totally different from soils formed on Earth by the action of wind, water, and life. The lunar soil is something entirely new to scientists for it could only have been formed on the surface of an airless body like the Moon. The soil has been built up over billions of years by the continuous bombardment of the unprotected Moon by large and small meteorites, most which would have burned up if they had entered the Earth's atmosphere. These meteorites form craters when they hit the Moon. Tiny particles of cosmic dust produce microscopic craters perhaps 1/1000 of a millimeter (1/25000 inch) across, while the rare impact of a large body may blast out a crater many km or miles in diameter. Each of these imnpacts shatters the solid rock, scatters material around the crater and stirs and mixes the soil. As a result, the lunar soil is a well mixed sample of a large area of the Moon and single samples of lunar soil have yielded rock fragments whose source was hundreds of km from the collection site. However, the lunar soil is more than ground up and reworked lunar rock. It is the boundary layer between the Moon and outer space, and it absorbs the matter and energy that strikes the Moon from the Sun and the rest of the universe. Tiny bits of cosmic dust and high energy atomic particles that would be stopped high in the Earth's protective atmosphere rain continually onto the surface of the Moon. [this was just one posting on this BBS. if you liked this, i'll forward s'more (most are of this length or shorter - some, tho', are tremendously long, like NASA's *complete* file on Venus). here's a list of others: various shuttle missions, the NOAA satellites, AXAF array telescope, space lab 2 & 3, IRAS IR satellite, possible solar systems, young astronauts, Venus Pioneer to view Halley's comet, AGDISP program, orbital transfer vehicle, orbital maneuvering vehicle, Galileo mission to Jupiter, review of 1984, the moon [what ya got above], Halley's comet (long), Mars-Viking mission (review), Venus technical data... crash!usiiden!jholt@nosc] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 85 18:44:43 pdt Message-Id: <8505010144.AA02490@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: usiiden!jholt%Nosc Sender: mordor!daemon Subject: attn lunatics Gateway: mordor From: [forwarded from the InterComEx BBS (303) 367-1935 by joe holt] WHAT'S NEW ON THE MOON? ----------------------- (excerpts from a publication by Dr. Bevan M. French, NASA Exterestrial Materials Program) In 1969 over half a billion people witnessed the "impossible" coming true as the first men walked on the Moon. For the next three years people of different nationalities watched as one of the great explorations of human history was displayed. Between 1969 and 72, supported by thousands of scientists on Earth, 12 astronauts explored the surface of the Moon. Protected against the airlessness and the killing heat of the lunar environment, they stayed on the Moon for days and some of them travelled for miles across its surface in Lunar Rovers. They made scientific observations and set up instruments to probe the interior of the Moon. They collected hundreds of pounds of lunar rock and soil, thus beginning the first attempt to decipher the origin and geological history of another world from actual samples of its crust. The initial excitement of new success and discovery has passed. The TV sets no longer show astronauts moving across the sunlit lunar landscape. But on Earth, scientists are only now beginning to understand the immense treasure of new knowledge returned by the Apollo astronauts. The Apollo Program has left us with a large and priceless legacy of lunar materials and data. We now have Moon rocks collected from eight different places on the Moon. The six Apollo landings returned a collection weighing 382 kilograms (843 lbs) and consisting of more than 2000 samples. Two automated Soviet spacecraft named Luna 16 and Luna 20 returned small but important samples totalling about 130 grams (5 oz). Instruments placed on the moon as long ago as 1969 are still detecting moonquakes and meteorite impacts, measuring the Moon's motions and recording the heat flowing out from the inside of the Moon. The Apollo Program also carried out a major effort of photgraphing and analyzing the surface of the Moon. Cameras on the Apollo spacecraft obtained so many accurate photographs that we now have better maps of the Moon than we do of some areas of the Earth. Special detectors near the cameras measured the weak X-rays and radio activity given off by the lunar surface. From these measurements, we have been able to determine the chemical composition of about one quarter of the moon's surface, an area the size of the U.S. and Mexico combined. By comparing the flight data with analyses of returned Moon rocks, we can draw conclusions about the chemical composition and nature of the entire Moon. Thus, in less than a decade, science and the Apollo Program have changed our Moon from an unknown and unreachable object into a familiar world. Is there life on the Moon? -------------------------- Despite careful searching, neither living organisms nor fossil life have been found in any lunar samples. The lunar rocks were so barren of life that the quarantine period for returned astronauts was dropped after the third Apollo landing. The Moon has no water of any kind, either free or chemically combined in the rocks. Water is a substance that is necessary for life and it is therefore unlikely that life could ever have originated on the Moon. Furthermore, lunar rocks contain only tiny amounts of the carbon and carbon compounds out of which life is built and most of this carbon is not native to the Moon but is brought to the lunar surface in meteorites and as atoms blasted out of the Sun. What is the Moon made of? ------------------------- Before the first Moon rocks were collected, we could analyze only two types of bodies in our solar system, our own planet Earth and the meteorites that occasionally fall to Earth from outer space. Now we have learned that the Moon is chemically different from both of these, but it is most like the earth. The Moon is made of rock. The rock is so much like Earth rocks in its appearance that we can use the same terms to describe both. The rocks are igneous, which means that they are formed by the cooling of molten lava. (No sedimentary rocks like limestone or shale, which are deposited in water have ever been found on the Moon.) The dark regions (called "maria") that form the features of the "Man in the Moon" are low, level areas covered with layers of basalt lava, a rock similar to the lavas that erupt from terrestrial volcanoes in Hawaii, Iceland, and elsewhere. The light colored parts of the Moon (called "highlands") are higher, more rugged regions that are older than the maria. These areas are made up of several different kinds of rocks that cooled slowly deep within the Moon. Again using terrestrial terms, we call these rocks gabbro, norite and anorthosite. Despite these similarities, Moon rocks and Earth rocks are basically different and it is easy to tell them apart by analyzing their chemistry or examining them under a microscope. The most obvious difference is Moon rocks have no water at all while most Earth rocks contain at least a percent or two of water. The Moon rocks are therefore very well preserved since they never were able to react with water to form clay minerals or rust. A 3 1/2 billion year old Moon rock looks fresher than water bearing lava just erupted from a terrestrial volcano. Another important difference is that the Moon rocks formed where there was almost no free oxygen. As a result, some of the iron in lunar rocks was not oxidized when the lunar lavas formed and still occurs as small crystals of metallic iron. Because Moon rocks have never been exposed to water or oxygen, any contact with the Earth's atmosphere could "rust" them badly. For this reason, the returned Apollo samples are carefully stored in an atmosphere of dry nitrogen, and no more of the lunar material than necessary is exposed to the laboratory atmosphere while the samples are being analyzed. The Moon rocks are made of the same chemical elements that make up Earth rocks, although the proportions are different. Moon rocks contain more of the common elements calcium, aluminum and titanium than do most earth rocks. Rarer elements like hafnium and zirconium, which have high melting points are also more plentiful in lunar rock. However, other elements like sodium and potassium, which have low melting points are scarce in lunar material. Because Moon rocks are richer in high temperature elements and contain less low temperature elements, scientists believe that the materials that formed the Moon was once heated to much higher temperatures than material that formed the Earth. The chemical composition of the Moon also is different in different places. Soon after the Moon formed, various elements sorted themselves out to form different kinds of rock. The light colored highlands are rich in calcium and aluminum, while the dark colored maria contain less of those elements and more titanium, iron, and magnesium. What is the inside of the Moon like? ------------------------------------ Sensitive instruments placed on the lunar surface by the Apollo astronauts are still recording the tiny vibrations caused by meteorite impacts on the surface of the Moon and by small "moonquakes" deep within it. These vibrations provide the data from which scientists determine what the inside of the Moon is like. About 3000 moonquakes are detected each year. All of them are very weak by terrestrial standards. The average moonquake releases about as much energy as a firecracker, and the whole Moon releases less than one ten billionth of the earthquake energy of the Earth. The moonquakes occur about 600 to 800 kilometers (370 to 500 mi) deep inside the Moon, much deeper than almost all the quakes on our own planet. Certain kinds of moonquakes occur at about the same time every month, suggesting that they are triggered by repeated tidal strains as the moon moves in its orbit about the Earth. A picture of the inside of the Moon has slowly been put together from the records of thousands of moonquakes, meteorite impacts, and the deliberate impacts of discarded Apollo rocket stages onto the Moon. The Moon is not uniform inside, but is divided into a series of layers just as the Earth is, although the layers of the Earth and Moon are different. The outermost part of the Moon is a crust about 60 Km (37 mi) thick, probably composed of calcium and aluminum rich rocks like those found in the highlands. Beneath this crust is a thick layer of denser rock (the mantle) which extends down to more than 800 Km (500 mi). The deep interior of the Moon is still unknown. The Moon may contain a small iron core at its center, and there is some evidence that the Moon may be hot and even partly molten inside. The Moon does not now have a magnetic field like the Earth's and so the most baffling and unexpected result of the Apollo program was the discovery of preserved magnetism in many of the old lunar rocks. One explanation is that the Moon had an ancient magnetic field that somehow disappeared after the old lunar rocks had formed. One reason we have been able to learn so much about the Moon's interior is that the instruments placed on the Moon by the Apollo astronauts have operated much longer than expected. Some of the instruments originally designed for a one year lifetime, have been operating since 1969-70. This long operation has provided information that we could not have obtained from shorter records. The long lifetime of the heat flow experiments set up by the Apollo 15 and 17 missions has made it possible to determine more accurately the amount of heat coming out of the Moon. This heat flow is a basic indicator of the termperature and composition of the inside of the Moon. The new value, about two thirds of the value calculated from earlier data, is equal to about one third the amount of heat now coming out of the inside of the Earth. As a result, we can now produce better models of what the inside of the Moon is like. As they probed the lunar interior, the Apollo instruments have provided information about the space environment near the Moon. For example, the sensitive devices used to detect moonquakes have also recorded the vibrations caused by the impacts of small meteorites onto the lunar surface. We now have long term records of how often meteorites strike the Moon, and we have learned that these impacts do not always occur at random. Some small meteorites semm to travel in groups. Several such swarms, composed of meteorities weighing a few pounds each struck the Moon in 1975. The detection of such events is giving scientists new ideas about the distribution of meteorites and cosmic dust in the solar system. The long lifetime of the Apollo instruments has also made several cooperative projects possible. For example, our instruments were still making magnetic measurements at several Apollo landing sites when, elsewhere on the moon, the Russians landed similar instruments attached to their two automated lunar roving vehicles (Lunokhods). By making simultaneous measurements and exchanging data, American and Russian scientists have not only provided a small example of international cooperation in space, but they have jointly obtained a better picture of the magnetic properties of the Moon and the space around it. What is the Moon's surface like? -------------------------------- Long before the Apollo Program scientists could see that the Moon's surface was complex. Earth based telescopes could distinguish the level of maria and the rugged highlands. We could recognize countless circular craters, rugged mountain ranges, and deep winding canyons or rilles. Because of the Apollo explorations, we have now learned that all these lunar landscapes are covered by a layer of fine broken up powder and rubble about 1 to 20 meters (3 to 60 ft) deep. This layer is usually called the "lunar soil," although it contains no water or organic material and it is totally different from soils formed on Earth by the action of wind, water, and life. The lunar soil is something entirely new to scientists for it could only have been formed on the surface of an airless body like the Moon. The soil has been built up over billions of years by the continuous bombardment of the unprotected Moon by large and small meteorites, most which would have burned up if they had entered the Earth's atmosphere. These meteorites form craters when they hit the Moon. Tiny particles of cosmic dust produce microscopic craters perhaps 1/1000 of a millimeter (1/25000 inch) across, while the rare impact of a large body may blast out a crater many km or miles in diameter. Each of these imnpacts shatters the solid rock, scatters material around the crater and stirs and mixes the soil. As a result, the lunar soil is a well mixed sample of a large area of the Moon and single samples of lunar soil have yielded rock fragments whose source was hundreds of km from the collection site. However, the lunar soil is more than ground up and reworked lunar rock. It is the boundary layer between the Moon and outer space, and it absorbs the matter and energy that strikes the Moon from the Sun and the rest of the universe. Tiny bits of cosmic dust and high energy atomic particles that would be stopped high in the Earth's protective atmosphere rain continually onto the surface of the Moon. [this was just one posting on this BBS. if you liked this, i'll forward s'more (most are of this length or shorter - some, tho', are tremendously long, like NASA's *complete* file on Venus). here's a list of others: various shuttle missions, the NOAA satellites, AXAF array telescope, space lab 2 & 3, IRAS IR satellite, possible solar systems, young astronauts, Venus Pioneer to view Halley's comet, AGDISP program, orbital transfer vehicle, orbital maneuvering vehicle, Galileo mission to Jupiter, review of 1984, the moon [what ya got above], Halley's comet (long), Mars-Viking mission (review), Venus technical data... crash!usiiden!jholt@nosc] ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #145 ******************* 02-May-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #146 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 146 Today's Topics: Re: Paper planes in orbit Launch Set -- Satellites Scrubbed Launch and Deployment Problems on Board Re: SPACE Digest V5 #145 SDI and space development space station in trouble ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 May 85 08:00:19 pdt Message-Id: <8505011500.AA04615@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: pbear!peterb Subject: Re: Paper planes in orbit Gateway: mordor Eugene, Another idea is the feasibility of a paper airplane making it through reentry. I wonder if anybody has given thought to this as a recreation idea. I think it would since it would have such a large surface area to weight ratio, and that as a mechanical system is massively overdamped in terms of stability. So next time some one is out there on an EVA, cluth one of the paper airplanes in a glove before leaving and let it fly. Peter Barada ima!pbear!peterb ihnp4!inmet!pbear!peterb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 May 85 07:03:57 pdt Message-Id: <8505011403.AA04196@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: brunix!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Launch Set -- Satellites Scrubbed Gateway: mordor The Challenger is set to launch at noon EDT today, but NASA scrubbed the planned deployment of two low-priority satellites aboard the shuttle. The satellites are parts of Getaway Specials. Two off-the-shelf 9-volt batteries failed and thus prevent the satellites from being deployed properly. They will still go along for the ride, as it is too late to take them off the ship. NASA will schedule them for another flight. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 May 85 07:25:30 pdt Message-Id: <8505011425.AA04439@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: brunix!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Launch and Deployment Gateway: mordor The Challenger launched a bit over 2 minutes behind schedule due to a momentary computer problem. Soon after attaining orbit, the crew succeeded in deploying one of two getaway special satellites that NASA over the weekend decided not to try to launch because of possible battery problems but today decided to go ahead with the deploy. The first deployment was successful; the second was not. However, the crew was able to close the lid over the second satellite, averting a spacewalk to tie it shut. Should the lid remain open upon descent, the satellite could dislodge and damage the cargo bay. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 May 85 07:25:46 pdt Message-Id: <8505011425.AA04446@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: brunix!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Problems on Board Gateway: mordor The crew of the Challenger today faced many minor but irritating problems in space. A urine control experiment backfired, spewing urine over the cabin; communications between Spacelab and the cockpit were garbled; and the water system in the galley failed, leaving only cold water available. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 1 May 85 11:32:57-PDT From: Sam Hahn Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #145 To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Liked the moon article. Keep 'em coming. -- Sam Hahn ------------------------------ Date: Wed 1 May 85 14:47:51-EDT From: JHEIMANN@BBNA.ARPA Subject: SDI and space development To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: jheimann@BBNA.ARPA As the person who started the latest series of SDI messages, I would like to express my agreement with those who feel that discussions of whether or not SDI will work should be moved to some other mailing list. My point in the message I first sent was that regardless if one believes SDI will work as a defensive weapon, it is possible that SDI research lead to the deployment of strictly offensive space weapons. This should be of concern to those who would like to see space development procede in a peaceful direction. Whether we like it or not, SDI will probably get the bulk of US government space development money for the next decade or so. Civilian development of space will undoubtedly be strongly influenced by SDI, and not necessarily in negative ways. Where would we have been in the early years of the space program if von Braun had not worked on the V2, or if the Air Force had not developed the Atlas and Titan boosters (both of which were designed as ICBM launch platforms)? If we go ahead with SDI, then the space community is going to have to live with it. Ignoring it won't help. On the other hand, serious discussion of how SDI research efforts can be applied to peaceful development of space would be of great benefit. Large scale space ventures, at least in the foreseeable future, will be funded by the US government, and it is incumbent upon us as citizens (not to mention taxpayers) to exert influence to determine how space dollars are spent. It would be nice if Reagan just decided that SDI wasn't important and erecting a semi-permanent laboratory on the moon was, but for now I would suggest that discussions which are predicated on such a change of policy be restricted to the SF-LOVERS mailing list. John ------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 May 85 08:15:28 pdt Message-Id: <8505011515.AA04780@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ahutb!dls (d.l.skran) Subject: space station in trouble Gateway: mordor Recently the House froze space station funding at 1985 levels($150 million). Now the Senate subcommittee on Science, Technology, & Space has voted on April 27th in a preliminary vote to cut an additional 300 million from the already frozen budget. This will more than likely end the space station unless YOU right now pitch in right now to support it. Write, call, or telegram the chairman & his second on this committee this instant. A final vote will happen in early may. Send a copy of your letters to your own Senators to let them know how you feel. Senator Slade Gorton Senator Donald W. Reigle United States Senate United States Senate Washington, D.C. 20515 <-Ditto (202)224-2621 (202)224-4822 Urge a restoral of the full budget, and failing that, full funding(230 million)for the space station. Failure this year will put the station off at least two years. I would personally be all for a freeze IF EACH AND EVERY PROGRAM, including the Pentagon and ALL entitlements were frozen at last year's level. This is extremely unlikely. Once again, NASA will be cut to make way for a few more MX missiles and an out of control set of entitlement programs. Dale Skran ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #146 ******************* 03-May-85 0352 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #147 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 147 Today's Topics: Shuttle Coverage on Cable News Network L5 Network Directory Re: Shuttle Coverage on Cable News Network reentry of paper airplanes? Getting stuck in the middle of space Re: Shuttle Coverage on Cable News Network ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 May 85 19:32:36 pdt Message-Id: <8505020232.AA01827@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ttidcb!shuster (Cy Shuster) Subject: Shuttle Coverage on Cable News Network Gateway: mordor I have heard that CNN (Cable News Network) provided extended, or even continuous coverage of shuttle flights, but as yet I haven't seen any more than the ten or twenty seconds that the standard networks provide. Does anyone know scheduled broadcast times for this coverage? (I subscribe via Communicom in the LA area). ------------------------------ Date: Thu 2 May 85 02:22:15-EDT From: Bdale Garbee Subject: L5 Network Directory To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA The L5 Society Computer Network Directory, listing members of the society and other persons interested in space development who have network addresses, has just been resurrected from the grave. If you are not currently on the mailing list for the directory, and would like to be... send mail with your real and network addresses, your computer mail address, and your L5 affiliation (if any) to me at ag0b@cmu-cc-te.arpa -or- bdale@cmu-cs-g.arpa Bdale Garbee Founder and VP, L5 CMU L5Net Coordinator, and 'keeper of the list' ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 May 85 08:30:28 pdt Message-Id: <8505021530.AA04049@mordor.ARPA> To: space-network-source@mit-mc.ARPA From: ut-sally!barnett (Lewis Barnett) Subject: Re: Shuttle Coverage on Cable News Network Gateway: mordor > I have heard that CNN (Cable News Network) provided extended, or even > continuous coverage of shuttle flights, but as yet I haven't seen any > more than the ten or twenty seconds that the standard networks > provide. CNN did a really fine job on the satellite rescue mission; there were solid hours of nothing but the shuttle. Unfortunatley, CNN now seems to have adopted the prevailing view that only "firsts" are important. Their coverage of the last two missions has been better than the major networks only in that CNN runs all day long, so you get the opportunity to see the twenty second slot twelve times instead of twice. I long for the days of my youth, when the entire country sat on the edge of its seat (figuratively speaking) for the entire duration of an Apollo mission. Forget this crock about the declining newsworthy- ness of space being an indicator of how commonplace it has become -- I still find it fascinating and wish the media paid more attention! Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 -- barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 1985 08:42-PDT From: king@Kestrel.ARPA Subject: reentry of paper airplanes? To: space@mc Message-Id: <483896544/king@Kestrel> >Date: Wed, 1 May 85 08:00:19 pdt From: pbear!peterb Subject: Re: Paper planes in orbit Eugene, Another idea is the feasibility of a paper airplane making it through reentry. I wonder if anybody has given thought to this as a recreation idea. I think it would since it would have such a large surface area to weight ratio, and that as a mechanical system is massively overdamped in terms of stability. So next time some one is out there on an EVA, cluth one of the paper airplanes in a glove before leaving and let it fly. Peter Barada ima!pbear!peterb ihnp4!inmet!pbear!peterb It would not have a larger surface-to-weight ratio than the typical grain of sand or dust that makes the typical meteor shower. Also, why would it reenter? I doubt NASA would approve an EVA after reentry burn! Dick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 May 85 13:02 EDT From: Henry Minsky Subject: Getting stuck in the middle of space To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: hqm@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA Message-ID: <850502130244.8.HQM@ROARING-FORK.SCRC.Symbolics.COM> This is something I have wondered about for a long time: If you are in the middle of a large air-filled room in zero-g, and you find yourself with no velocity, is it possible to "swim" to one of the walls, i.e., by flapping your arms, kicking your legs, waving your shirt... I know various s-f authors have speculated on this situation, but I want to know if any of the astronauts really reported on this situation. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!cvl!umd5!zben From: umd5!zben Subject: Re: Shuttle Coverage on Cable News Network Message-Id: <491@umd5.UUCP> Date: 2 May 85 17:48:41 GMT Reply-To: zben@umd5.UUCP (Ben Cranston) Local channel 56 (a very independant station) seems to be dovetailing some continuous shuttle coverage with broadcasts of "the clown show" (my own personal name for the continuous coverage of the House of Representatives). We had about a half hour view of the mercury-iodide vapor crystal growth experiment and some time while they were fiddling with the triglycine sulfate (?) liquid crystal growth experiment. Meanwhile they were trying to fix the intercom system - they had the pilot's comm box plugged into the mission commander's sockets cause it worked there. I only watched for awhile before coming to work but its really neat... They must be picking it up from somewhere. There were periodic announcements of shows that would only be on something called "NASA SELECT" which I assume is some internal TV network - but they weren't letting those shows out onto the air. Perhaps one has to pay for them... :-) The call letters for channel 56 are WNVT (northern virginia television) serving Fairfax, D.C., and Prince Georges County (MD) but I am so close to the border with P.G. I can get it, albeit very fuzzy. Really frustrating - I would have liked to see the crystal growth stuff much more clearly. -- Ben Cranston ...{seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!rlgvax}!cvl!umd5!zben zben@umd2.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #147 ******************* 04-May-85 0351 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #148 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 148 Today's Topics: Re: attn lunatics Followup to my previous note about Shuttle on ham bands Re: Swimming in space Space Transportation Space shuttle on ham bands Re: Space Transportation Stuck in Space National Commission on Space named Re: National Commission on Space named CNN Shuttle coverage Shuttle on Cable TV Funding wars Correction to ham-band shuttle coverage Re: Swimming in space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!uwvax!astroatc!nic_vax!otto From: nic_vax!otto Subject: Re: attn lunatics Date: 2 May 85 14:45:07 GMT Organization: Nicolet Instrument Corp. Madison WI > From: > > [forwarded from the InterComEx BBS (303) 367-1935 by joe holt] > > WHAT'S NEW ON THE MOON? > ----------------------- > > [this was just one posting on this BBS. if you liked this, i'll > forward s'more > crash!usiiden!jholt@nosc] send us more ... more ... more !!!!! - Doug Otto ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-scotty!fisher From: fisher@scotty.DEC Subject: Followup to my previous note about Shuttle on ham bands Date: 2 May 85 21:36:15 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: DEC Engineering Network I should also mention that 1) WA3NAN indicated that they were also transmitting on ~14n Mhz FM. I presume this is a repeater frequency which would not have a very great range, so I did not copy the frequency down. 2) If I did not say so before, the transmissions originate in Greenbelt Maryland, USA. Don't know how well they can be heard at other places in the world. I'm new to this DX stuff. 3) During Spacelab 1, I was at Edwards AFB for the landing, and found that the JPL Amateur club was transmitting the same stuff on repeater frequencies. Those of you on the near the Pacific may find that the same folks are also transmitting on other AM frequencies just as Goddard is. Worth a try if you can't get Goddard. Burns ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 1985 0743 PST From: Ron Tencati Subject: Re: Swimming in space To: space@mit-mc Reply-To: TENCATI@JPL-VLSI.ARPA Henry S. F. Cooper Jr. in his book "The House in Space" quoted one astronaut as saying that he had faced the dilemma of getting "stuck" in the middle of a room in zero G. He said that all his "swimming" attempts succeeded only in causing his body to gyrate in the opposite direction of the force, and that he had to have help to get to the other side of the room. This same astronaut then did an experiment where a small amount of velocity was introduced into the experiment. He was still unable to control his own destiny, but he did get to the other side of the room a half hour later. I wonder if a change in the ship's velocity would affect the hapless astronaut who is hanging in mid-air. Ron Tencati JPL-VLSI.ARPA ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!decwrl!sun!plx!kevin From: plx!kevin (Kevin Carney) Subject: Space Transportation Date: 2 May 85 12:19:46 GMT Organization: Plexus Computers, Santa Clara, CA I met a man in my area named Bob Truax who thinks he has a demonstratibly better concept for putting cargo into orbit (better than the shuttle that is) because of two main design differences. 1. The propulsion system uses liquid fuel and is "pressure fed" (with remarkable low psi's) and the entire vehicle is recoverable (on the shuttle the main booster is not). 2. The craft has no wings. It is to be treated more like a ship than an aircraft. It will take off from water, land in water (with the aid of a parachute) and be towed to drydock for refurbishment. Does anybody know anything about this concept?? Do you think it can work?? (The man is not a flake, he has been involved in aerospace and rocketry for about 30 years. His list of awards and accomplishments look very impressive). This idea really intrigues me and I'd like to hear the ideas of some space nuts out there in netland. Kevin Carney @ Plexus Computers, San Jose, CA decvax!decwrl!sun!plx!kevin ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dvinci!fisher From: fisher@dvinci.DEC Subject: Space shuttle on ham bands Date: 2 May 85 17:41:05 GMT Organization: DEC Engineering Network Space shuttle mission audio is being rebroadcast by WA3NAN, the Goddard Amateur Radio Club, on the following frequencies: 3860 Khz (Received here in Central Mass) 7185 Khz ( " " " ) 14295 Khz (not received here, but announced on WA3NAN) (all Upper Sideband) They appear to miss some of it...e.g. during LOS, mission control announced that they were going to play an interview with someone. Then dead air for 5 min, then they announced that the interview was over. In any case, if you can receive it, it is a lot cheaper than $.30 /minute on the 900 number! Burns ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 85 09:48:35 pdt From: Rick McGeer Message-Id: <8505031648.AA07913@ucbkim.ARPA> To: sun!plx!kevin@Berkeley Subject: Re: Space Transportation Cc: space@mit-mc.ARPA Wasn't Truax the guy who was going to put an astronaut up a few years back? Rick ------------------------------ Date: Fri 3 May 85 13:11:21-EDT From: Paul Roberts Subject: Stuck in Space To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA But how could you come to be in the middle of large zero-G room at no velocity ? Theoretically, by throwing out some mass in mid-flight (ie in such a way that it carried away all your momentum relative to the room). But in practice you would never get this exactly right; you'd be left with enough residual drift to carry you to a wall eventually. I recall one story (A.C. Clarke ?) in which someone found himself in such a predicament and used the only available reaction-mass: his shorts. At this point, a visiting Congressman's wife enters and our hero's career suffers a setback. Paul Roberts pmr@columbia-20 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!linus!utzoo!henry From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: National Commission on Space named Date: 1 May 85 19:22:21 GMT Organization: U of Toronto Zoology According to a recent item in Science, Reagan has finally named the members of the National Commission on Space, charged with defining the goals of the US space program. The news is good; here's the list (apparently one more member is awaiting security clearance): Thomas O. Paine, former NASA head Laurel L. Wilkening, planetary scientist at U of Arizona Charles E. Yeager, who should need no introduction Neil A. Armstrong, ditto Kathryn D. Sullivan, ditto Gerard K. O'Neill, ditto Jeane J. Kirkpatrick, outgoing US ambassador to UN Luis W. Alvarez, UCB physicist, Nobel prize Paul J. Coleman, UCLA geophysicist, Space Research Assn. president George B. Field, former Harvard-Smithsonian Astrophys. Observ. director, Nat. Acad. of Sci. Astronomy Survey Ctee. chairman William H. Fitch, retired deputy USMC chief of staff for aviation Charles M. Hertzfield, director of research and technology for ITT J.L. Kerrebrock, head of aero/astro dept. at MIT David C. Webb, space development consultant The article does note "...it remains to be seen whether anyone will pay attention when the commission finally does report...". This is tentatively scheduled to happen early in 1986. Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Relay-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site mordor.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site brl-tgr.ARPA Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!brl-tgr!jcp From: jcp@brl-tgr.ARPA (Joe Pistritto ) Newsgroups: net.space Subject: Re: National Commission on Space named Message-Id: <10422@brl-tgr.ARPA> Date: 3 May 85 20:51:28 GMT References: <5558@utzoo.UUCP> Reply-To: jcp@brl-tgr.ARPA (Joe Pistritto ) Organization: Ballistic Research Lab Lines: 18 Apparently-To: space-network-source@mit-mc In article <5558@utzoo.UUCP> henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) writes: >According to a recent item in Science, Reagan has finally named the >members of the National Commission on Space, charged with defining >the goals of the US space program. The news is good; here's the list >(apparently one more member is awaiting security clearance): Now wait a minute... Personally, I can't understand why on earth a group defining the direction of the US space program should NEED a security clearance. After all, the military isn't going to let anyone outside DOD play with THEIR space operations, so surely the civilian side of the program should be completely unclassified. (Come to think of it, the very FIRST place the committee's report should be mailed is the Kremlin, that way they'll start moving on it 5-10 years ahead of Washington, which will scare everyone in Congress into funding the rest of the program... (1/2 :-)) -JCP- ------------------------------ Relay-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site mordor.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site decwrl.UUCP Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!gymble!lll-crg!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-scotty!fisher From: fisher@scotty.DEC Newsgroups: net.columbia Subject: CNN Shuttle coverage Message-Id: <1991@decwrl.UUCP> Date: 3 May 85 13:34:10 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: DEC Engineering Network Lines: 13 Apparently-To: space-network-source@mit-mc Well, they certainly don't provide continuous coverage. I found that they covered the launch much better than the big 3, and on the last mission, they provided very good coverage of the "flyswatter" attempt to activate the Leasat (was that what it was...how soon we forget!) In addition, they have a greater tendency to let us hear mission control rather than grandstanding themselves. In summary, CNN coverage is far superior to the big 3, but by no means continuous. In addition, you can usually find out SOMETHING about the flight every hour or so (half-hour on CNN Headline news). Burns ------------------------------ Relay-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site mordor.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site decwrl.UUCP Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!gymble!lll-crg!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-scotty!fisher From: fisher@scotty.DEC Newsgroups: net.columbia Subject: Shuttle on Cable TV Message-Id: <1992@decwrl.UUCP> Date: 3 May 85 13:41:43 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: DEC Engineering Network Lines: 23 Apparently-To: space-network-source@mit-mc >< Some of you may remember a while back I was trying to get my local cable company to carry NASA's shuttle feed on one of their free channels. They finally got sick of hearing me while the cable was still under construction, and told me to wait till the service started. Well, it has started, and I am starting to bug them again. I am looking for the names of other cable companies that provide shuttle coverage. I know from my earlier request that the cable in Long Beach,CA does. Any others out there? Also, any information about HOW they schedule it would be helpful. For example, do they dedicate a channel to it? What happens between missions? If they timeshare a channel with some other program source, how do they determine when to transmit which source? Do they publicize the service, or is it just there (i.e. uncommitted)? Thanks for whatever info you can send! Burns Fisher UUCP: ... {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dvinci!fisher ARPA: fisher%dvinci.dec@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ From: Message-Id: <8505040315.AA24909@cod.ARPA> Date: Fri, 3 May 85 10:48:02 PDT To: bang!Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC Subject: Funding wars Dale Amon states: >Regardless of what Sagan may have said in print, he and others are lobbying >hard at this moment to make sure the space station and not their pet >projects get the knife. and then adds: >The combined efforts of nearly ALL the other space organizations is lobbying >AGAINST his Carl's efforts. This is all new to me, so I'd appreciate a clearer idea as to whom the principal players referred to are, and what projects are pushed by Dr. Sagan and company in preference to the space station project. Do these other projects lack validity? In the same vein, if the funding for the space station is cut back so far that nothing meaningful can be done, is there any sense in tying up the money in futile semi-work instead of using it on a smaller project that can make meaningful use of the money? What I am suggesting is that space station project supporters are as prone to tunnel vision about their pet project as everyone else. This does not, however, mean that they are more right or more wrong than those with whom they disagree. Let us remember that there is more than one Important Project. /Bruce N. Wheelock/ arpanet: bang!crash!bnw at nosc uucp: {ihnp4 | sdcsvax!bang}!crash!bnw ------------------------------ Relay-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site mordor.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site decwrl.UUCP Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!gymble!lll-crg!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-scotty!fisher From: fisher@scotty.DEC Newsgroups: net.columbia,net.ham-radio Subject: Correction to ham-band shuttle coverage Message-Id: <1993@decwrl.UUCP> Date: 3 May 85 13:42:49 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: DEC Engineering Network Lines: 10 Xref: seismo net.columbia:1264 net.ham-radio:2721 Apparently-To: space-network-source@mit-mc Correction: That rebroadcast of shuttle mission audio from Goddard Amateur Radio Club is on LOWER sideband, not upper. Burns UUCP: ... {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dvinci!fisher ARPA: fisher%dvinci.dec@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Relay-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site mordor.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site ut-sally.UUCP Path: mordor!ut-sally!barnett From: ut-sally!barnett (Lewis Barnett) Newsgroups: net.space Subject: Re: Swimming in space Message-Id: <1813@ut-sally.UUCP> Date: 4 May 85 04:32:46 GMT References: <1651@mordor.UUCP> Organization: U. Texas CS Dept., Austin, Texas Lines: 19 Apparently-To: space-network-source@mit-mc > From: Ron Tencati > > Henry S. F. Cooper Jr. in his book "The House in Space" quoted one astronaut > as saying that he had faced the dilemma of getting "stuck" in the middle of > a room in zero G. He said that all his "swimming" attempts succeeded only > in causing his body to gyrate in the opposite direction of the force, and > that he had to have help to get to the other side of the room. I remember reading a story long, long ago that suggested that it should be possible to produce some velocity by throwing an object in the opposite direction one wanted to move. It sounded reasonable to me then, but I was young and impressionable at the time. And, of course, it _was_ science fiction... Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 -- barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #148 ******************* 05-May-85 0350 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #149 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 149 Today's Topics: Re: Shuttle Coverage on Cable News Network Re: Swimming in Space Experiment Fixed More Minor Problems Urine Experiment Fixed PBS series "Spaceflight" starts this week truax Galileo mission to Jupiter SFMSS plea for help! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Relay-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site mordor.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site mgweed.UUCP Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!mgnetp!mgweed!prg From: mgweed!prg (Phil Gunsul) Newsgroups: net.columbia,net.space Subject: Re: Shuttle Coverage on Cable News Network Message-Id: <16869@mgweed.UUCP> Date: 3 May 85 15:36:13 GMT References: <1433@aecom.UUCP> <343@ttidcb.UUCP> Distribution: net Organization: AT&T Consumer Products - Montgomery Illinois Lines: 9 Xref: seismo net.columbia:1265 net.space:3357 Apparently-To: space-network-source@mit-mc Have you thought about a satellite dish? NASA has two transponders that carry about as much info as anyone could possibly want. Also it may pay to contact your cable company and ask them if this information could be put on as a locally generated program. If you started a call in campaign it may just work... Phil Gunsul -- AT&T CP ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 1985 1010 PST From: Ron Tencati Subject: Re: Swimming in Space To: space@mit-mc Reply-To: TENCATI@JPL-VLSI.ARPA I guess I forgot to mention that Cooper's book "A House in Space" was a documentary on the Skylab missions. It was not a science fiction novel. I read the book several years ago, but it is still on my bookshelf. As I recall the hapless astronaut was not stuck with velocity=0, but he was in the middle of the room, drifting VERY slowly, and he was unable to affect his velocity or course. He then repeated the experiment with a little more velocity. Flapping one's shirt or trunks will may work in the shuttle where there is an atmosphere and wind can be generated. In the vacuum of space, however, nothing will induce velocity unless the astronaut puctures his/her space suit and causes some kind of thrust. Henry Cooper only gave this topic about 1 page in his book, so I shouldn't take up more room than that. I can dig up the book and provide the name of the astronaut, who can then be contacted for the "real scoop"... ------ ------------------------------ Relay-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site mordor.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site brunix.UUCP Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!panda!talcott!wjh12!foxvax1!brunix!alb From: brunix!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Newsgroups: net.columbia Subject: Experiment Fixed Message-Id: <10502@brunix.UUCP> Date: 2 May 85 23:31:55 GMT Distribution: net Organization: Brown University Computer Science Lines: 5 Apparently-To: space-network-source@mit-mc With a shout of joy, a shuttle astronaut today fixed an experiment designed nine years ago to fly on the space shuttle. The experiment, a study of the effects of weightlessness on fluid drops, hadn't worked until today due to a short circuit. ------------------------------ Relay-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site mordor.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site brunix.UUCP Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!panda!talcott!wjh12!foxvax1!brunix!alb From: brunix!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Newsgroups: net.columbia Subject: More Minor Problems Message-Id: <10472@brunix.UUCP> Date: 1 May 85 14:00:16 GMT Distribution: net Organization: Brown University Computer Science Lines: 12 Apparently-To: space-network-source@mit-mc More minor problems beset the Challenger yesterday. When astronauts went to feed their animal guests, a flood of partially eaten food and feces spewed out into the Spacelab; this was quickly cleaned up. Also, an airlock in the cargo bay jammed, so a camera that was to have gone through it could not. However, NASA says the mission is proceeding very well, despite the minor problems, and a lot of good data has been obtained from the seven working experiments out of nine on Spacelab. In fact, they are considering extending the flight by one day to give the Spacelab crew more time. The landing is currently scheduled for 6 May at EAFB. ------------------------------ Relay-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site mordor.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site brunix.UUCP Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!panda!talcott!wjh12!foxvax1!brunix!alb From: brunix!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Newsgroups: net.columbia Subject: Urine Experiment Fixed Message-Id: <10484@brunix.UUCP> Date: 2 May 85 01:16:37 GMT Distribution: net Organization: Brown University Computer Science Lines: 5 Apparently-To: space-network-source@mit-mc The urine monitoring experiment that backfired and sent urine spewing all over the cabin on Monday has been fixed, NASA said today. Also, they reported that a crystal growth experiment is now working perfectly, with growth measured at about a millimeter per day. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 85 11:27:53 pdt From: Ross Finlayson Subject: PBS series "Spaceflight" starts this week To: space@mit-mc I'm really looking forward to this series. It's a shame that there are only 4 1-hour episodes. BC-SPACEFLIGHT ADV05 (FOR RELEASE: Sunday, May 5) By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD c.1985 N.Y. Times News Service NEW YORK - Enough time has passed, more than a quarter of a century, for the space age now to attract chroniclers who address the historical dimensions of this new power to break the bonds of Earth's gravity and travel out to a frontier unlike any other. There is, it seems, a growing recognition of space flight as an enduring phenomenon that may well transcend all previous human experience. Reflections on the origin, experiences and meaning of spacefaring have been offered recently in books, movies and television programs. Tom Wolfe's ''Right Stuff,'' the book and the movie, evoked the early days of the American space experience. James A. Michener's ''Space,'' the novel and the television mini-series last month, enlarged on the experience to shape a fictional epic of the past 40 years. And last month, Walter A. McDougal, a Berkeley historian, published ''The Heavens and the Earth,'' the first definitive political history of the space age. Now, the Public Broadcasting Service has moved to the launching pad a documentary, ''Spaceflight,'' covering the history of space exploration from the early theorists, visionaries and rocket pioneers through the dramatic moon landings to the flights of the space shuttle and the prospects of star wars. The first of the four hour-long segments will be shown Wednesday evening. ''Spaceflight'' is billed as the first prime-time television documentary series to offer a comprehensive history of both the Soviet and the American space programs. Some film, previously withheld from the public, includes scenes of an X-3 rocketplane crash. The Soviet Union also provided some rare footage of Sergei Korolev, the ''chief designer'' of the Soviet program, whose identity remained a secret until after his death in the late 1960's. The documentary takes note of the emerging competition of the European, Japanese and Chinese space efforts. But perhaps inevitably, owing to the availability of so much more NASA film, the visual emphasis is centered on American endeavors. Little attention is given to the unmanned explorations, the landings of automated craft on Mars and Venus and the odysseys of Pioneers and Voyagers to the outer planets and the fringes of the solar system. >From the beginning, the manned program, Soyuz and Salyut, Mercury, Apollo and the shuttle, have enjoyed political priority, and so they do in this documentary conceived, written and produced by Blaine Baggett. Baggett fastened his initial hopes on space. It was, at first, an act of faith. For two years of research and interviewing, he had no outside financial support. Finally, he persuaded the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and then the Du Pont Co. to back him. ''I read 'The Right Stuff' and found it fascinating. Wolfe had dealt only with the Mercury astronauts, and I thought there must be so much other fascinating material out there about space before Mercury and after. ''I found that no one had ever done a really comprehensive look at space flight, except on a sort of mission-by-mission basis.'' Moreover, space seemed to fit his own ambitions. ''I wanted to do documentaries looking at American institutions - why we do the things we do.'' Baggett interviewed and filmed more than 40 people for the series. These included such early astronauts as Alan Shepard, Wally Schirra and John Glenn. Chuck Yeager, the incomparable test pilot, recalled his attitude toward the new Mercury space program. ''It wasn't flying to me,'' said Yeager, the first pilot to break the sound barrier. ''So, I wasn't interested in it.'' Wernher von Braun, the German scientist who built the American Saturn V moon rocket, is shown in one of his last filmed interviews before he died in 1977. A relaxed, reminiscent tone runs through the stories these people tell, which probably reflects Baggett's off-camera interviewing technique. Baggett said he regreted not being able to interview some of the Soviet astronauts, but his entreaties to the Soviet Embassy in Washington were met with a cool response. Mixing the recollections of the interviewees with the pictorial record, the still photographs of early days and the striking movies of exploding failures and soaring successes, Baggett produced the kind of documentary that has all but vanished. Events are not recreated. The only actor employed is Martin Sheen, who narrates the series. In the first episode, ''Thunder in the Skies,'' the story begins with the launching of Sputnik I on Oct. 4, 1957, the opening shot in the space age and the so-called space race between the superpowers, but then properly turns back to the more distant beginnings. There are scenes from rural Russia in the 19th century, when an obscure school teacher laid the theoretical groundwork for space flight. There is Robert H. Goddard, the American pioneer, firing his first liquid rockets in the 1920's. The second episode, ''The Wings of Mercury,'' concentrates on the early days of manned space flight, both in the Soviet Union and the United States. The third, ''One Giant Leap,'' recounts the struggle to fulfill the Kennedy commitment to a moon landing, to the Apollo XI landing at Tranquillity Base on July 20, 1969. The final episode, ''The Territory Ahead,'' encompasses the Soviet feats of endurance in the Salyut space stations and the flights of the American shuttle, the world's first re-usable space ship. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 85 10:11 CDT From: Mike_Linnig To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: linnig%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: truax Wasn't Mr. truax the man who helped build the rocket cycle that evil kinevil (sp?) used to try to jump the grand canyon? Wasn't there a tv series (Starring Andy Griffith?) about a space parts collector that made his own rockets based on (very loosely) on Truax? -- Mike Linnig "I'll watch anything [with a space plot]" ------------------------------ From: Message-Id: <8505050110.AA06153@cod.ARPA> Date: Sat, 4 May 85 12:53:04 PDT To: crash!noscvax!space@mit-mc Subject: Galileo mission to Jupiter [forwarded from the InterComEx BBS (303) 367-1935 by joe holt - thanx as always to Mark Felton, one of the sysops of this board and the one responsible for these articles] From: _Project Galileo: A Return to Jupiter_ [it should be noted that this is a NASA publication] The great Italian astronomer Galileo Galilei shocked the world in January 1610 when he announced the discovery of four satellites oribiting Jupiter. His discovery provided proof to Nicolaus Copernicus' theory that Earth and the other planets orbit the Sun, and Earth is not the center of the universe. Galileo told the story of his discovery: "On the seventh day of January in the present year 1610, at the first hour of the night, when I was viewing the heavenly bodies with a telescope, Jupiter presented itself to me; and because I had prepared a very excellent instrument for myself, I perceived (as I had not before, on account of the weakness of my previous instrument) that beside the planet there were three starlets, small indeed, but very bright." Galileo thought those "starlets" were just more of the fixed stars that his telescope was allowing him to discover with astounding regularity. But the next night he saw they had changed position. The night after that was cloudy. Then on January 10, he saw only two "starlets", the third having disappeared behind Jupiter. On the 11th: "I had now decided beyond all question that there existed in the heavens three stars wandering about Jupiter as do Mercury and Venus about the Sun, and this became plainer than daylight from observations on similar occasions that followed." On January 13, 1610, Galileo spotted the fourth satellite. Although he nearly paid for his observatons and later writing with his life, Galileo remained the most respected scientist of his time. Today, those four satellites - Io, Europa, Ganymede, and Callisto are called the Galilean satellites in his honor. A NASA project to orbit Jupiter and send an instrumented Probe into the giant planet's atmosphere is under way at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. The mission, called Project Galileo after the Italian astronomer, will begin an in depth exploration of the Jovian system: Jupiter, the Galilean satellites, and the giant, invisible magnetosphere surrounding Jupiter. Scientists believe that Jupiter is made of the original material from which stars form, largely unmodified by nuclear processes. Close range studies of Jupiter should provide important information about the beginning and development of our solar system and provide new insights into phenomena that directly relate to our understanding of all the planets. Project Galileo was originally scheduled for launch in early 1982 as the scientific successor to the Voyager mission to Jupiter. The Galileo probe was designed to be attatched to the Orbiter, and the combination spacecraft was scheduled to be launched from an Earth orbiting Space Shuttle. The relative position of Earth, Mars and Jupiter at that time makes it possible to send a heavy spacecraft to Jupiter via Mars in a relatively short time. Problems in the Space Shuttle development, however delayed the Galileo launch until recently. But now two spacecrafts will make the trip; an Orbiter spacecraft and an instrument Probe flying aboard a Probe Carrier spacecraft. The Orbiter will fly within a few hundred kilometers of the surface of Mars. The Orbiter will use Mars' gravity and a long burn of its own rocket motor to boost it the rest of the way to Jupiter. When the Orbiter arrives at Jupiter about one year before the probe, it will photograph the region where the Probe will never enter to ensure achievement of the original mission goals. As the Orbiter reaches its closest approach to Jupiter, it will fire its retrorocket engine for about 50 minutes to slow the spacecraft and permit capture by the planet. Within a few hours of closest approach to Jupiter, the Orbiter will fly past the volcanic satellite, Io, for close scientific observations. Io's gravity will further slow the spacecraft. At that point the spacecraft will be orbiting Jupiter in an elliptical path, ranging from more than 15 million Km (9.3 million mi) to 285,000 Km (178,000 mi) above Jupiter's cloud tops. Thereafter, the orbit will change through a series of elliptical paths to take the spacecraft to all regions of Jupiter's environment. That will be accomplished by using the gravity of the satellites to bend the orbit each time the spacecraft comes close to one of them. Eventually the orbit will be so altered that the spacecraft's closest approach to Jupiter will be 900,000 Km (560,000 mi) above Jupiter's cloud tops. During at least one orbit, the spacecraft will fly through and study Jupiter's magnetotail - the portion of the magnetic region directly opposite the Sun - to a distance of 150 times the radius of Jupiter, more than 10 million Km (6.2 million mi) from the planet. Observations of the magnetotail are not possible from Earth or with flyby spacecraft because the spacecraft pass close to Jupiter, and their trajectories are too strongly deflected to reach that region. The Orbiter will complete 11 orbits of Jupiter while making a close flyby of one Galilean satellite - Io, Europa, Ganymede or Callisto - on each orbit. The Orbiter, carrying 11 scientific instruments and weighing 2660 Kg (5864 lb) at launch, will transmit scientific and engineering data at rates up to 115K bits per second. Meanwhile, the Probe will be launched one month after the Orbiter, in March 1984, and will be transported to Jupiter on a special Probe Carrier spacecraft. Traveling on a long trajectory that does not pass Mars, the Probe and its Carrier will reach Jupiter one year later than the Orbiter in the summer of 1987. After being released from the Probe-Carrier spacecraft, the Probe will descend toward Jupiter's thick atmosphere. Scientists want the instrument-laden Probe to enter Jupiter's light colored Equatorial Zone, between 1 and 5.5 degrees north or south latitude. They believe the topmost clouds of that portion of Jupiter's atmosphere consist primarily of ammonia. By entering at that location, the Probe should be able to measure Jupiter's important cloud layers. As the Probe strikes the upper layers of Jupiter's atmosphere, it will slow so rapidly that it will feel the effects of 400 times Earth's gravity. Once the strongest deceleration forces have passed, the Probe will deploy a parachute. The decent module will begin to take atmospheric measurements and transmit its findings to the Probe Carrier spacecraft for relay back to Earth. 40 minutes after entry, scientists expect the Probe to reach an atmospheric density of about 10 bars (10 X the atmospheric pressure at Earth's surface), below what are believed to be Jupiter's lowest water clouds. At the end of 60 minutes, the Probe will have penetrated 15 to 20 Earth atmospheres. Below that, increasing temperature and pressure and weakening radio signals will eventually bring the Probe mission to an end. Meanwhile, the Probe Carrier spacecraft will monitor signals from the Probe, pricking up scientific information and relaying it to Earth. The data also will be recorded on the Probe Carrier for later playback if needed. Once the Probe's work is done, the mission operations emphasis will revert to the Orbiter. The primary mission is scheduled to end about 20 months after Probe arrival at Jupiter. The Galileo Orbiter will incorporate a new dual spin design. Part of the spacecraft will be three axis stabilized so the camera and some other instruments can be accurately and steadily pointed. The other portion will spin so its instruments can sweep out space to make their measurements. Since Jupiter is too far from the Sun for solar cells, the Orbiter will use radioisotope thermoelectric generators similar to those flown on the two Voyager spacecrafts. Jupiter is vastly different from Earth, Mercury, Venus and Mars. While these terrestrial planets are mostly rock, Jupiter's major constituents are hydrogen and helium, in about the same ratio as the Sun. Jupiter is the noisiest source of radio signals, except the Sun, in our sky. Its magnetic field - the largest in our solar system - would reach from Earth to Venus. Jupiter may change gradually from a gaseous hydrogen helium to a liquid metalic hydrogen. The tops of the clouds - all that can be seen of the planet - are wracked by huge storms that appear to well up from deep within Jupiter's interior. The four Galilean satellites differ from each other in much the same way as the planets differ with distance from the Sun. Io has been subjected to a gravitational tug of war that has resulted in at least eight large, active volcanoes; Europa appears to be rocky with an ice crust. Ganymede and Callisto, while different from each other in significant ways, both consist mostly of water. The Orbiter is designed to: Inspect the surfaces of the satellites (the camera may see details as small as 30-100 meters across) to gain information about their composition, present state, and geological history. Make comprehensive observations of Jupiter's weather. Study the magnetosphere- its size and shape and how it changes, how particles enter and leave it, and how Jupiter's satellites affect it. The Probe is designed to: Determine the temperature, pressure, density, and composition of the various levels of Jupiter's atmosphere down to a level at which pressure is about 10 X that at sea level on Earth, perhaps 129 Km (80 mi) below the cloud tops. Measure and compare the flows of energy through the atmosphere, inward from the Sun and outward from Jupiter's interior. Even before the time of Galileo, people have been interested in Jupiter, our largest planet. More than 475 scientists - including 90 from 10 foreign countries - submitted proposals in Project Galileo; 115 scientists were selected to form the Galileo science team. Project Galileo will be the U.S.' fifth mission to Jupiter; predecessors include Pioneer 10 & 11 and Voyager 1 & 2. The Jet Propulsion Laboratory is the overall management center for Project Galileo. The Orbiter's rocket propulsion system will be provided by the Federal Repulblic of Germany. NASA Ames Research Center will develop the Probe and Probe Carrier spacecraft. Radio signals from the two spacecraft will be received on Earth by JPL's Deep Space Network. [more current-newsish topics will be forwarded in the future] ------------------------------ Date: Sat 4 May 85 23:38:31-EDT From: Bdale Garbee Subject: SFMSS plea for help! To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA Many of you may remember when we created 'Scientists For a Manned Space Station' on short notice. This action was critical in gaining funding for the station by defeating efforts in committee to divert or cut funding. Well folks, we need you again. If you were not part of that effort, or if you have changed phone, USnail address or net address over the last year, please send an update to: garbee@cmu-cs-g Membership requirements are: a) You work in science (not necessarily a Phd) b) You agree that a manned space station is a good idea Among the key figures who worked with us last year are: Dr. Jastrow, Dr. Sheffield as spokespersons; Dr. James Fletcher (Former NASA director), Dr. Noel Jarret (tech. dir. at Alcoa), Gordon Woodcock, Peter Vijk, Marvin Minsky, John McCarthy, and many others by lending their names. We need your name to back a request for FULL FUNDING for the space station. A Ms. Sandy Adamson may contact some of you directly by telephone if we need signatures, a petition, or any such extra support. WE NEED YOUR HELP. Congress is looking on NASA as a painless place to cut the budget. We are in danger of loosing nearly $750M off the original presidential budget, and of having major diversion and cutbacks on the space station funding itself. Let's make it a VERY painful place to look for easy cuts!! To lend your support, mail the following information to garbee@cmu-cs-g (please use the format shown, clip and edit if desired... it will make our life easier inserting the information into our database!): Name: Dr. Public Title: Professor of Foobaz Affiliation: Computer Science Department, CMU Phone: work and/or home Mail: work or home Net: network address Get people in other departments if you can. Get info in as soon as possible. We want to have as large a support base as possible before the committee vote. Let's show them that there is a groundswell of support of scientists for a manned space station!!! ------- ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #149 ******************* 06-May-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #150 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 150 Today's Topics: Re: attn lunatics Re: Space shuttle on ham bands ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Relay-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site mordor.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!cbosgd!clyde!watmath!utzoo!henry From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Newsgroups: net.space Subject: Re: attn lunatics Message-Id: <5563@utzoo.UUCP> Date: 3 May 85 16:23:46 GMT References: <1598@mordor.UUCP> Organization: U of Toronto Zoology Lines: 6 Apparently-To: space-network-source@mit-mc Unfortunately, this article is a little out of date. The instruments left on the Moon by the Apollo missions were turned off some years ago, to save the pittance it cost to receive and record the data. ARGH. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Relay-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site mordor.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site umd5.UUCP Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!cvl!umd5!louie From: umd5!louie Newsgroups: net.columbia,net.ham-radio Subject: Re: Space shuttle on ham bands Message-Id: <494@umd5.UUCP> Date: 5 May 85 19:16:00 GMT References: <1973@decwrl.UUCP> Reply-To: louie@umd5.UUCP (Louis Mamakos) Organization: U of Md, CSC, College Park, Md Lines: 7 Xref: seismo net.columbia:1270 net.ham-radio:2726 Apparently-To: space-network-source@mit-mc The 2 meter frequency is 147.45 MHz FM. It is transmitted my WA3NAN from the Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland. It can be copied in the Baltimore-Washington Metro area. -- Louis A. Mamakos WA3YMH University of Maryland, Computer Science Center Internet: louie@umd5.arpa UUCP: {seismo!umcp-cs, ihnp4!rlgvax}!cvl!umd5!louie ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #150 ******************* 07-May-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #151 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 151 Today's Topics: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #148 Andy Griffith Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Re: Sagan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To: Space-Enthusiasts@mit-mc.ARPA Cc: SPACE@mit-mc.ARPA, lazear@mitre.ARPA Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #148 <8505041138.AB28062@mitre.ARPA> Date: 06 May 85 10:58:05 EDT (Mon) From: Walt Lazear Regarding Bob Truax, I seem to remember interviews with him on TV. I may be entirely wrong, but didn't he build the rocket that Evil Kneival used to try to jump the Snake River? It was either that, or he was trying to drum up backing for his private efforts to provide civilian space launches. Can anyone confirm the Kneival connection? Walt (Lazear at MITRE) ------------------------------ From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Mon, 6 May 85 11:38:03 PDT To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC Subject: Andy Griffith >Wasn't there a tv series (Starring Andy Griffith?) about a space parts >collector that made his own rockets based on (very loosely) on Truax? Yes, about three years ago on (I think) NBC. Andy Griffith starred in a TV movie and short-run series called "Salvage." He played the *rich* owner of a very big scale salvage company. He decided (in the pilot) to salvage the stuff NASA left on the moon, built a ship (using NASA rejects and left-overs), and did so. A little shakey on the science here and there, but enjoyable, I thought. The series did not live up to the pilot, and died. /Bruce N. Wheelock/ arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!houxm!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tektronix!orca!warner From: orca!warner (Ken Warner) Subject: Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Date: 5 May 85 16:14:09 GMT Reply-To: warner@orca.UUCP (Ken Warner) Organization: Tektronix, Wilsonville OR I have often wondered if swim-fin like shoes would be effective. Ken Warner ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!hao!ames!eugene From: ames!eugene (Eugene Miya) Subject: Re: Sagan Date: 6 May 85 21:42:53 GMT Organization: NASA-Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA > From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS > > Regardless of what Sagan may have said in print, he and others are lobbying > hard at this moment to make sure the space station and not their pet > projects get the knife. > ... > Folks, this is all out war. If you want there to be any future for yourself > and your children, get off your can and DO SOMETHING RIGHT NOW!!! I feel I have to response to this emotionalism. [First, I appreciate not have MY slice of the pie not cut.] Appealing to individuals and children, come on! Recently, my Division Chief made the decision to leave NASA. His prior experience was running portions of several nuclear research facilities in CA and NM. His comment to me was that he found a great deal of political in fighting within NASA as opposed to the L*Ls. I suspect that a lot of this is due to the Budget cutting nature of Congress, the BIG engineering thinking which characterizes NASA, and the fact that BIG money only goes to BIG projects. [Note the case for private space.] Most of the programs Carl tries to defend: Voyager, Nuclear Winter, the Planetary Program, are relatively small budget items: factors of $100M, at most, whereas the Space Station is $5B. NW can be measured in thousands. If you want to appeal to Congress, you should not appeal that budgets in NASA be directed to specific program like the space station. Instead, [personal opinion:] cut some of the fat from DOD budgets. --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,decwrl,allegra}!ames!aurora!eugene emiya@ames-vmsb.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #151 ******************* 08-May-85 0352 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #152 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 152 Today's Topics: Re: Shuttle Coverage on Cable News Network Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Re: Re: Swimming in space Re: Swimming in space Re: Shuttle Coverage on Cable News Network Expensive alarm clock Budget cuts Truax Space Station costs Getting UNSTUCK in the middle of space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!nsc!nessus From: nsc!nessus (Kchula-Rrit) Subject: Re: Shuttle Coverage on Cable News Network Date: 6 May 85 20:30:41 GMT Distribution: net Organization: The Patriarchy of Kzin, Kzin > I long for the days of my youth, when the entire country sat on the > edge of its seat (figuratively speaking) for the entire duration of > an Apollo mission. Forget this crock about the declining newsworthy- > ness of space being an indicator of how commonplace it has become -- > I still find it fascinating and wish the media paid more attention! > > Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 > > -- barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP, > {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** I, too, long for those days and feel the same fascination with space and space travel that I did in my youth. It may become "commonplace", but it's still very interesting for me. How many have cut class or gotten up at 2 or 3 in the morning on a school night and sneaked into the living room to watch a Ranger craft send pictures back from the Moon? At age ~8? Do any of the networks(CNN, etc.) announce times when they will be covering these events so that they may be recorded on VCR for viewing at a later time? From the alter ego of-- Kchula-Rrit !menlo70!nsc!nessus ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!ihnp4!phoenix!brent From: phoenix!brent (Brent P. Callaghan) Subject: Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Date: 6 May 85 13:21:00 GMT Organization: AT&T Information Systems, Lincroft NJ There's a very good book called "A House in Space" (sorry - can't remember author/publisher) which describes the experiences of the skylab crews. The accounts of living in a weightless environment are quite fascinating. They had to be careful they didn't inhale small object (nuts, bolts, erasers etc). Most of us have witnessed their space gymnastics performances and running around the inside of the lab cylinder in self created "gravity". In this book they describe the problem of drifting away from handholds while engrossed in some activity. They COULD swim back to the wall using a vigorous dog-paddle technique. -- Made in New Zealand --> Brent Callaghan AT&T Information Systems, Lincroft, NJ {ihnp4|mtuxo|pegasus}!phoenix!brent (201) 576-3475 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!princeton!siemens!steve From: siemens!steve Subject: Re: Re: Swimming in space Date: 6 May 85 15:08:00 GMT If you're fortunate enough to have a ball, you can throw it at the wall away from where you want to go, giving yourself some momentum (mv, isn't it?) and then catch it when it bounces back, getting teh same amount of momentum again (less friction loss, inelasticity of bounce, etc.) ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!ihnp4!drutx!mtuxo!pegasus!phoenix!brent From: phoenix!brent (Brent P. Callaghan) Subject: Re: Swimming in space Date: 6 May 85 18:12:14 GMT Organization: AT&T Information Systems, Lincroft NJ How about jet propulsion !!! Theory: Take deep breath in desired direction of travel. Rotate head 180 deg Blow out with puckered lips (whistle tune if other crewmembers don't mind) Repeat until either: - feeling dizzy (breathe in paper bag) - enough delta V - destination reached (could use retro technique to soft land) Skillful lip control would gimbal the thrust vector to maintain attitude and thrust direction. I'll experiment in 2D next time I go ice skating. -- Made in New Zealand --> Brent Callaghan AT&T Information Systems, Lincroft, NJ {ihnp4|mtuxo|pegasus}!phoenix!brent (201) 576-3475 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!mgnetp!mgweed!prg From: mgweed!prg (Phil Gunsul) Subject: Re: Shuttle Coverage on Cable News Network Date: 6 May 85 18:14:37 GMT Distribution: net Organization: AT&T Consumer Products - Montgomery Illinois [...] You may wish to write to CNN as I am about to do... Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. (TBS) 1050 Techwood Drive, NW Atlanta, GA 30318 Telephone (404)827-1500 Phil Gunsul -- AT&T IS -- Montgomery Works -- (312) 859-4485 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7-May-85 13:10:42 PDT From: vortex!lauren@rand-unix (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Expensive alarm clock To: SPACE@MC.ARPA OK. Now I'm mad. I've been a moderate-level supporter of the space program up to now, but now they're in trouble. I mean, let's face it, a person deserves his sleep right? Well how is a poor guy supposed to get rest with a spacecraft sonic booming all over the city! A pretty expensive wakeup call, to say the least. BOOM BOOM! --Lauren-- P.S. Just kidding of course. But I do hope that the landing pattern used yesterday does not become very "typical" -- it really did wake me up, and it set off burglar alarms all over the place. --LW-- ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 85 20:38:21 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Budget cuts To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A I am not in substantial disagreement with Eugene on the matter of budgets. Neither I nor others have been lobbying for cuts in planetary programs to save the space station. We have been lobbying to keep the budget intact. I would love to see a carrier task force traded away and the resultant funds switched to useful purposes. Early commercialization of the STS might be another way to free up funds for the station. It must also be noted that the space station budget is still not very large, relatively speaking. We could probably pay for it by using the profits of selling hammers, coffee pots and steel washers to the DOD... My ire was directed at those who ARE trying to get other programs cut to save their own piece. I might add that I have been trying to verify the rumor that set off my explosion. I have thus far verified that a group of planetary scientists did indeed approach Sen. Slade Gorton (Majority leader of the Senate Appropriations Committee) requesting such tradeoffs. I have not yet verified whether Carl Sagan was one of them, but I'm working on it. If the planetary scientists are, as a group, attempting to cut other peoples throats, then I have to begin wondering whether we should turn the other cheek. (I am of a basically mellow philosophy: let the other guy take the first swing at you. Then nuke him). I really do doubt that there are a more than a small handful of planetary scientists who are of this low a moral caliber. I find it hard to imagine how anyone could have gotten into planetary science to begin with without having dreamed of GOING themselves. If I should come across the names, I will post them so all will know who they are. A few morons can cause a great deal of harm and generate a great deal of noise. It is hard to be anything BUT explosive when you discover others working at cross purposes for their own selfish ends. I might also make it clear that although I spend a great deal of time trying to defend the space station budget, I have nothing to gain from it but hope for the future. I am not now and have never been employed in any capacity remotely related to NASA or aerospace. (This is not to say I never will, but if I do it will most likely be with an entrepreneurial firm intending to build and/or operate it's own launch vehicles. My reaction to red tape is to tie knots in it and do what I want while someone tries to figure out the snarls, so I'd never make it with any government agency or contractor) I will also add that my earlier post generated a personal mail response to me from Louis Friedman, Executive Director of the Planetary Society. If anyone is interested, I would be more than happy to post his comments. I will state that he denies the Planetary Society has lobbied against the space station. As far as I know at this point, as an organization, this appears to be true. I do not yet know whether the people who run the society are among those who are attacking the station. I will reserve my judgement until I find out for sure, and if they are not, I will be more than happy to apologize to those who happened to be the wrong target. ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 85 20:46:20 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Truax To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A The last time I heard, Truax he was talking about a test launch in a year or two with a man cramped into a nosecone for a suborbital flight and with a parachute landing in the ocean. The rocket was at one time named 'Volksrocket'. It consists of various pieces of old rocket hardware plus a number of Truax designed pieces. It is also true that he designed the rocket bike the Evil Knevil used in his attempt to jump the grand canyon. The attempt failed and Evil parachuted into the canyon. It is also true that Salvage One with Andy Griffith was somewhat loosely based on him. Truax was at one time involved with military rocket design, but I believe he lost his job during the McCarthy purges. The man is not an amateur. ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 85 20:52:58 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Space Station costs To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A I just reread Gene's post and must correct the numbers. The space station funding is ~$8B over 10-12 years (A ludicrously long timeframe). The average funding is in $100M's/year. The NASA budget is about 6.5B/yr, and I believe about 50% of that is for aeronautics rather than astronautics. If anyone is interested in the actual breakdown, I'll try to dig it up and post it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 85 21:33:15 est From: Tony Guzzi To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Getting UNSTUCK in the middle of space This topic of "What do you do if you find yourself floating with nearly no velocity in a place where you can not reach anything?" This is a topic that I think few of us will ever have the possiblity of dealing with but it is an interesting "thought experiment" (as Albert Einstein calls them). In the past, a number of homemade experiments have been suggested here on SPACE (the paper airplane in zero-g for one), so here is another one. The topic could be called "Personal Propulsion Devices". The experiment would center around the idea of how to add velocity to a "stationary" astronaut. This first one may sound very silly, but I am wondering what the effect of giving a good, hard, long blow in the opposite direction will do. I do know that the direction is crucial and may just result in a summersaulting, stationary astronaut. The second involves a common, ordinary balloon. The balloon is blown up, placed near the astronauts center of gravity/mass and the air let out in the opposite direction the astronaut wants to go. The third is to use a pressurized container in place of the balloon (even though some people would consider balloon as pressurized containers). The containers could be re-filled using an ordinary bicycle tire pump. All these ideas center around the standard principle that all rockets work by so I think they are theorectically sound, but as for practicallity, well, I think only "field testing" can really tell. Tony Guzzi tonyg%uconn.csnet@csnet.arpa (If you are wondering why I mentioned using a balloon, a balloon can be easily carried around in a pocket. The pressurized container may be bothersome.) ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #152 ******************* 09-May-85 0355 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #153 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 153 Today's Topics: Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Re: Shuttle Coverage on Cable News Network Re: Expensive Alarm Clock "A House In Space" info. swimming in space Re: Getting UNSTUCK in the middle of space Re: Getting UNSTUCK in the middle of space Re: Swimming in space Re. Stuck in Space/Available Reaction Mass Re: NASA Budget Cuts! Proposed rescue mission space station funding/reply to Wheelock Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Landing Re: Available reaction mass Speed Of Light soft drinks in space Why swimming doesn't work well ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!markb From: sdcrdcf!markb (Mark Biggar) Subject: Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Date: 6 May 85 21:34:27 GMT Reply-To: markb@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Mark Biggar) Organization: System Development Corp. R+D, Santa Monica How about blowing? Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!sabre!zeta!epsilon!gamma!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!cbosgd!ukma!edward From: ukma!edward (Edward C. Bennett) Subject: Re: Shuttle Coverage on Cable News Network Date: 6 May 85 21:27:22 GMT Distribution: net Organization: U of Kentucky, Mathematical Sciences, Lexington KY Summary: A request for more info. In article <16869@mgweed.UUCP>, prg@mgweed.UUCP (Phil Gunsul) writes: > Have you thought about a satellite dish? NASA has two transponders > that carry about as much info as anyone could possibly want. > > Also it may pay to contact your cable company and ask them if > this information could be put on as a locally generated > program. If you started a call in campaign it may just work... > > Phil Gunsul -- AT&T CP Phil, if you have more detail on those transponders, (which satellite, which frequency etc...) could we have it please. That way, when we call our respective cable companies we can say..."Yeah, uh, NASA puts all this information on such 'n such a satellite at such 'n such frequency". That way, they couldn't complain that they don't know where the information is. -- edward {ucbvax,unmvax,boulder,research}!anlams! -| {mcvax!qtlon,vax135,mddc}!qusavx! -|--> ukma!edward {decvax,ihnp4,mhuxt,clyde,osu-eddie,ulysses}!cbosgd! -| "Well, what's on the television then?" "Looks like a penguin." ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 1985 0939 PST From: Ron Tencati Subject: Re: Expensive Alarm Clock To: space@mit-mc Reply-To: TENCATI@JPL-VLSI.ARPA Lauren may be right, that everyone deserves their sleep. But for myself and the rest of the crowd at Edwards' AFB on Monday, those sonic booms as well as the landing can only be described as SPECTACULAR! Now I don't feel so bad about paying my taxes... Ron Tencati JPL-VLSI.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 85 09:57:00 PDT From: Kit Weinrichter To: SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: "A House In Space" info. The author of "A House in Space" is S.F. Henry Cooper. The copyright date is 1967. The publishers are Holt, Rinehart & Winston. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 85 13:30:10 EST From: Henry Minsky Subject: swimming in space To: SPACE@MIT-MC I belive that the rocket-propulsion schemes (throwing a ball, blowing a balloon) are all much much less efficient than something that involves taking advantage of pushing off of the air itself. (i.e., heavier than air flight with wings and propellors can be done with a lot less power than a plain reaction rocket-engine) The suggestion of swim fins seems like about the best idea. Maybe in a pinch you could grasp your shirt in two hands and wave it back and forth the the tail of a fish. (In sailing, if you are becalmed, and you pump your tiller back and forth, you get some forward motion) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 85 10:45:14 pdt From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) To: tonyg%uconn.csnet@csnet-relay.ARPA, space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Re: Getting UNSTUCK in the middle of space Cc: POURNE@MIT-MC.ARPA Jerry Pournelle (POURNE@MIT-MC) has suggested ("What's it Like Out There?" and "Spirals" ) that the most popular mode of transportation in an O'Neill colony would be flying. Of course, in the O'Neill colony there would be gravity... I can't understand why swimming motions wouldn't work (and didn't, according to recent postings). After all, motion in a fluid (air) should be much the same as motion in another fluid (water), and I assure you that it's possible for buoyant force to just match the gravitational force on a scuba diver. Comments from anyone? Rick. ------------------------------ To: space@mit-mc.arpa Subject: Re: Getting UNSTUCK in the middle of space Date: 08 May 85 11:32:31 PDT (Wed) From: Martin D. Katz I understand that most attempts at throwing something fail to induce the desired motion because the astronaut doesn't know his center of mass. Baloons, etc. would have the same problem. One person suggested blowing. Because the mouth is near the end of the body, most of the energy would be converted into rotation unless the person could blow almost straight up. Throwing a ball would impart some momentum (mostly rotation). If the ball is caught on a single bounce, the momemtum would be almost cancelled. Catching the ball on a double bounce might double ones momentum (but, the chances of throwing from the center of mass and then catching to the center of mass are nearly nil). In general, I would say that if one wanted to throw something, it would be better to throw it upward. The best approach would probably be to swim -- one might be able to use a shirt as either a fin or a sail. Of course, it would be hard to actually get stuck for long -- the cabin air is kept in constant motion. The air flow would eventually move you toward an air intake. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!lanl!unmvax!unm-cvax!nmtvax!maurice From: nmtvax!maurice Subject: Re: Swimming in space Date: 6 May 85 19:36:40 GMT Reply-To: maurice@nmtvax.UUCP (Roger M. Levasseur) Organization: middle-o-nowhere >I wonder if a change in the ship's velocity would affect the hapless astronaut >who is hanging in mid-air. Yes, it would. It has been noticed that objects that are floating in mid air will start to drift, or change directions when the control rockets fire to keep the shuttle pointed the right way, or just change directions. If it does happen to an object, it should be the same for an astronaut. Roger Levasseur ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-lymph!arndt From: arndt@lymph.DEC Subject: Re. Stuck in Space/Available Reaction Mass Date: 7 May 85 13:50:20 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: DEC Engineering Network Er . . . he could have eaten beans before hand. Regards, Ken Arndt ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!mhuxt!mhuxr!mhuxn!charm!grl From: charm!grl (George Lake) Subject: Re: NASA Budget Cuts! Date: 7 May 85 13:57:49 GMT Organization: Physics Research @ AT&T Bell Labs Murray Hill NJ The implication that NASA budget cuts are to help the poor is ludicrous. Is the military sensitive part of NASA getting cut? NO, Civilian science? of course. Are we increasing benefits to the poor? NO Are we increasing the defense budget? ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcc3!sdcc6!ix241 From: sdcc6!ix241 (ix241) Subject: Proposed rescue mission Date: 7 May 85 16:47:15 GMT Organization: U.C. San Diego, Academic Computer Center Keywords: Rescue, Hughes The latest edition of Aviation Leak (May 3?) has a long article on the proposed rescue mission for the lost Hughes satillite. The rescue will probably take place during mission 51-I scheduled in August. John Testa UCSD Chemistry sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!mtuxo!mtgzz!dls From: mtgzz!dls (d.l.skran) Subject: space station funding/reply to Wheelock Date: 8 May 85 03:12:02 GMT Organization: AT&T Information Systems Labs, Holmdel NJ Cc: skran@mordor, ecl@mordor, leeper@mordor, charm!mam >, >>, The combined efforts of nearly ALL the other space organizations is lobbying >>, AGAINST his Carl's efforts. >, >, This.is.all.new.to.me, so I'd appreciate a clearer idea as to whom the >p, rincipal.players.referred.to.are, and what projects are pushed by Dr. Sagan >a, nd company in preference to the space station project. Do these other >p, rojects.lack.validity? Since you asked, there exists a coalition of pro space station groups that includes Space Studies Institute, L5, NSI, American Space Foundation, Spacepac, and SEDS, I believe under the name "National Space Coordinating Committee." This coalition includes all major groups except the Planetary Society. Sagan's projects are mainly more robotic planetary probes. And of course they are valid, useful scientific projects. > In the same vein, if the funding for the space station is cut back so far >that nothing meaningful can be done, is there any sense in tying up the money >in futile semi-work instead of using it on a smaller project that can make >meaningful use of the money? With this attitude, we would do nothing but analyze existing data for decades. Let me put it to you straight: what is one more Titan probe going to do to move humanity into space any faster? Compared to building a space station? A reusable orbital transfer vehicle? Demonstrating zero-gee manufacturing? I support unmanned space exploration, but the time has come to ask: what are we getting out of it? Will it lead to the discovery of new resources? Critical probes to near-Earth crossing asteroids and the moon go by the by for lack of funding while more distant, sexier, targets are explored. Note that yet another probe of Mars was the first priority at NASA in their new Mariner Mark II program. > What I am suggesting is that space station project supporters are as >prone to tunnel vision about their pet project as everyone else. This does >not, however, mean that they are more right or more wrong than those with whom >they disagree. Let us remember that there is more than one Important Project. > > /Bruce N. Wheelock/ Indeed. And every single time the visionary project gets the ax. Unless we do something about it. The future doesn't just happen. People make it happen. If you care about mankind having a long term future, write your Congresscritter now and support the space station. Dale Skran, Speaking for himself, as usual. ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 85 15:32:27 PDT (Wednesday) From: JimDay.Pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Why not give each astronaut a beany hat equipped with a small propellor and a windup motor? ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!wjh12!foxvax1!brunix!alb From: brunix!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Landing Date: 7 May 85 18:39:14 GMT Distribution: net Organization: Brown University Computer Science The Challenger landed right on target yesterday at 1211 EDT at EAFB. NASA hailed the mission as a complete success. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!lwall From: sdcrdcf!lwall (Larry Wall) Subject: Re: Available reaction mass Date: 7 May 85 16:09:24 GMT Reply-To: lwall@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Larry Wall) Organization: System Development Corp. R+D, Santa Monica In article <2034@decwrl.UUCP> koch@tallis.DEC (Kevin Koch LTN1-2/B17 DTN229-6274) writes: >> Subject: Stuck in Space >> >> I recall one story (A.C. Clarke ?) in which someone found himself in >> such a predicament and used the only available reaction-mass: his shorts. >> At this point, a visiting Congressman's wife enters and our hero's >> career suffers a setback. > >He could have spat. A little slower than throwing your pants away, >but it would work. And the Congressman's wife would still have come in, and gotten it in the face. Larry Wall {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!lwall ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-exodus!harrow From: harrow@exodus.DEC (Jeff Harrow NCSE TWO/E92 DTN=247-3134) Subject: Speed Of Light Date: 8 May 85 14:11:25 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: DEC Engineering Network There's something I've never quite understood: Consider the following setup: \-------/ (Ship #2 going at .9C) (Laser, at 1.0C) (Ship #1 at 0.1C) | | >--> ------------------------ >--> | Earth |---------------------------------------------------- >--> | | (Laser, going at 1.0C) /-------\ Now, for simplicity we assume that the Earth has zero velocity (I don't think this will mess us up): A laser is fired from Earth which propagates out at 1.0C (relative to Earth!). Ship #1 took off first, a LONG time ago, going in the same direction at 0.1C (relative to Earth!). Ship #2 now takes off going at .9C (relative to Earth!) and fires a SECOND laser in the same direction, said second laser traveling at 1.0C (relative to Ship #2, NOT to Earth!!). Hence, BOTH lasers are going at 1.0C, but RELATIVE TO DIFFERENT BASES. When both lasers get to Ship #1, won't the laser from Earth have an apparent speed of .9C (C minus the speed of Ship #1 (.1C)), and won't the laser from Ship #2 have an apparent speed of 1.8C (.9C Ship #2 velocity plus 1.0C speed of laser minus 0.1C velocity of Ship #1)? Now I KNOW that I'm missing some basic concept here because it would seem that in the first case the ship was GOING FASTER THAN LIGHT, RELATIVE TO EARTH, and that in the second case the speed of the laser from Ship #2 was FASTER THAN C (as perceived on Ship #1). If C IS relative (perhaps a poor word (or the operative problem?) to be using here) to a base, then it would seem that MANY thing could go "faster than light", but if it's NOT relative to a base, "how can that be"? Any good ideas to explain this to a layman? Jeff Work address: ARPAnet: HARROW%EXODUS.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Usenet: {allegra,Shasta,decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-exodus!harrow Easynet: EXODUS::HARROW Telephone: (617)858-3134 USPS: Digital Equipment Corp. Mail stop: TWO/E92 1925 Andover St. Tewksbury, MA 01876 ------------------------------ Date: 08 May 85 2333 PDT From: Ron Goldman Subject: soft drinks in space To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA a281 2046 07 May 85 AM-Space Coke,0303 Carbonated Drink May Make Debut On July Space Shuttle Mission Laserphoto HT2 By PAUL RECER AP Aerospace Writer SPACE CENTER, Houston (AP) - Coca-Cola, which is available virtually around the world, may be carried into orbit aboard the space shuttle in July in a special container developed at a cost of more than $250,000. The Coca-Cola Co. announced Tuesday that the special steel can has solved the problem of keeping carbonated drinks from inadvertently escaping their containers in the weightlessness and low pressure inside spacecraft. The National Aeronautics and Space Administration confirmed that discussions with Coca-Cola have been underway and that a test flight is under study, but Johnson Space Center spokesman Jack Riley said no agreement has been reached. A statement from NASA said the earliest flight under consideration for the soft drink is the Spacelab 2 mission on space shuttle Challenger, scheduled for launch on July 15. The mission is a seven-day flight with a crew of seven. A news release by the Atlanta-based Coca-Cola Co. says the company has spent more than $250,000 to develop the ''Coke Space Can.'' Conventional drink containers do not work in space, because there is no gravity to pull the fluid out, so astronauts sip fluids from straws placed into plastic containers that collapse as they are emptied. Carbonated drinks have the additional problem of spewing under the force of expanding gas when introduced into reduced pressure. The space shuttle cabin pressure is reduced to 10.2 pounds per square inch, compared with a normal sea level pressure of 14, during preparation for spacewalks. According to Coca-Cola, the new ''Space Can'' has an internal dispensing mechanism that compensates for the absence of gravity. The package has a drinking spout activated by a lever valve. The can includes a screw-on safety cap and a safety valve lock. AP-NY-05-07-85 2344EDT *************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 85 23:39:46 est From: Tony Guzzi To: mcgeer%ucbkim%ucb-vax.arpa@csnet-relay.arpa, space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Why swimming doesn't work well Rick, I think the problem has to do with the opposite force that is generated when a person pushes against something. The force is the resistance (friction) that the fluid has to something moving through it. As I'm sure we are all aware of, it's easier to move your hand through the air and through an equal volume of water. It all boils down to Newton's laws of motion, in particular, "For every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction." When it comes to moving in zero-g, its the force that is applied TO the body you want to move that is important, not the force applied BY the body. The more solid an object, the more of the resistance/opposing force is returned. Brent Callaghan's and my ideas are based on the idea of concentrating the force and increasing it. To sum things up, swimming techniques don't work too well because air is to easy to move through. Tony Guzzi ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #153 ******************* 10-May-85 0353 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #154 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 154 Today's Topics: Re: Speed Of Light Bob Truax, and other "cheap shots" Re: Speed Of Light Re: Speed Of Light Re: Speed Of Light Re: Speed Of Light Speed of light Off the wall? Re: Speed Of Light (Jeff Harrow) space station funding/reply to Skran Reply to Re: NASA Budget Cuts! (George Lake) Re: Galileo mission to Jupiter Re: reentry of paper airplanes? Re: Speed Of Light Re: Galileo mission to Jupiter ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 May 85 11:05:50 pdt From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) To: harrow.exodus@decwrl.ARPA, space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Re: Speed Of Light Many, many, many physics undergraduates have thought of the same thought experiment, having fallen in to the same trap you did; namely, light travels at only one velocity (c) and two observers in different inertial reference frames will measure the same velocity. Or, to put it better: Two ships, A and B, are launched from earth, A travelling at .1 c and B travelling at .2 c. A laser on earth is then fired after the ships. Observers in A report that the beam appeared to travel at c (not .9c) and observers in B report that the beam appeared to travel at c (not .8c). Ah, you say, but A and B are travelling at different velocities wrt the light source. Surely this velocity difference, which is real enough (that is, observers in all three frames would agree with it) must manifest itself somehow in their observation of the laser beam, and you are correct. An observer on earth would report that the beam had a wavelength w, an observer on A would say w + w0 (w0 > 0), and and observer on B would say w + w0 + w1 (w1 > 0). Rick. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 May 85 11:06 PST From: Dave Platt To: Space Subject: Bob Truax, and other "cheap shots" An interesting article on "cheap shots" (private, lower-cost low-earth-orbit launches) appears in the Summer 1985 issue of "Far Frontiers" (a paperback-format "magazine"; edited by Jerry Pournell and Jim Baen; published by Baen Books). The 14-page article, written by G. Harry Stine, mentions the efforts of Truax, Gary Hudson, Eagle Engineering, SSI, and other individuals and companies. The information is not presented in great depth, but gives a useful overview of the new private-sector "space race". ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!ut-ngp!mercury From: ut-ngp!mercury (Larry E. Baker) Subject: Re: Speed Of Light Date: 9 May 85 15:45:10 GMT Organization: University of Texas at Austin > Hence, BOTH lasers are going at 1.0C, but RELATIVE TO DIFFERENT BASES. > When both lasers get to Ship #1, won't the laser from Earth have an > apparent speed of .9C (C minus the speed of Ship #1 (.1C)), and won't > the laser from Ship #2 have an apparent speed of 1.8C (.9C Ship #2 > velocity plus 1.0C speed of laser minus 0.1C velocity of Ship #1)? The light from ship 2 will simply shift to a higher frequency. This is known as the Doppler effect. You can see the same thing happen with cars and trains -- when a car drives by at 60 miles per hour blowing its horn, the tone changes as it pass you. This is due to the compression of the sound waves as the car is approaching, and the expansion of the waves as the car departs. The same is true for light. Were you a stationary observer in front (hopefully not directly in front) of ship 2, then you would see laser light of a much higher frequency as the ship is nearing you, and after it passed (assuming you're still alive), were it to shine the laser BACKWARDS, you would see laser light of a much lower frequency. If the light were 'white' light, then, as the ship approaches, it would shift to the blue end of the spectrum. (ultraviolet shifting out of the visible spectrum, most of the other colors also, and infrared shifting down into the visible spectrum). As the ship departs, you would see 'red' light as the infrared shifts DOWN out of the visible spectrum and ultraviolet shifts down into blue. This rather shakey explination probably has holes big enough to peg rocks through, as it is based on Physics that I learned long ago, but I hope it helps. -- - Larry Baker @ The University of Texas at Austin - ... {seismo!ut-sally | decvax!allegra | tektronix!ihnp4}!ut-ngp!mercury - ... mercury@ut-ngp.ARPA ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!mcc-db!ables From: mcc-db!ables (King Ables) Subject: Re: Speed Of Light Date: 9 May 85 19:25:10 GMT Organization: MCC (Austin, TX) The thing you're missing here is that as you begin dealing with speeds which are significant next to the speed of light, you can't add them linearly (actually, you can't *really* add ANY velocities linearly). If you throw a ball ahead of you at 10 mph from a car going 30 mph, we say the ball has a velocity of 40mph relative to the stop sign you just ran ( :-) ). However, that's not *exactly* true. It's VERY nearly 40mph, but speeds do not add linearly. It's just that when you're this far from the speed of light, they add extremely close to linearly. As you get up to .5C, you begin to see things like (this is an approximation) .5C +.5C = .75C. There is a formula (which I cannot remember right now, unfortunately) which shows how to calculate vt = v1 + v2 and it has v/C worked into it somewhere. For velocities near 0.0, v/C is so small that it isn't significant, but as v gets significant next to C, the v/C value begins to have an effect on vt. If I can find the formula at home, I'll post it tomorrow, otherwise, I'm sure someone else knows it and will post it (they may beat me to it, anyway). Hope this helps. -King ARPA: ables@mcc UUCP: {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!mcc-db!ables ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!uwvax!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!spar!freeman From: spar!freeman (Jay Freeman) Subject: Re: Speed Of Light Date: 8 May 85 20:20:55 GMT Reply-To: freeman@max.UUCP (Jay Freeman) Organization: Schlumberger Palo Alto Research, CA Keywords: relativity In article <2073@decwrl.UUCP> harrow@exodus.DE (Jeff Harrow NCSE TWO/E92 DTN=247-3134) writes: >There's something I've never quite understood: > >Consider the following setup: > >\-------/ (Ship #2 going at .9C) (Laser, at 1.0C) (Ship #1 at 0.1C) | | >--> ------------------------ >| Earth |---------------------------------------------------- >--> >| | (Laser, going at 1.0C) >/-------\ > > > ... Theory and experiment indicate that both laser beams will be perceived as moving at 1.0 C both by observers on Earth and on by observers on each space ship. Note that the original conclusion, that one observer will see light moving at 1.8 C and another at 0.1 C, stems from the implicit assumption that the "right way" to compare speeds is by simple addition and subtraction: But this amounts to making an hypothesis about the physical world, which can be tested by experiment, and so forth. And the experiments and reasoning associated with the development of the special theory of relativity have indicated that mere addition and subtraction are NOT the "right way" to compare speeds. The rule is more complicated, and it leads to the conclusion that all light beams moving in vacuum have the same speed as seen by all observers. When relative speeds are very small, the rule suggested by relativity reduces to simple addition and subtraction, so that our common-sense notions are vindicated. However, common sense is derived from common experience, and there is no reason to assume that it should apply to situations and conditions far beyond the everyday. Flamers will note that there is a lot more that one could say about these matters :-) ... -- -- Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research) ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!uwvax!astroatc!nic_vax!brown From: nic_vax!brown Subject: Re: Speed Of Light Date: 9 May 85 16:40:47 GMT Organization: Nicolet Instrument Corp. Madison WI > There's something I've never quite understood: > > Consider the following setup: > > \-------/ (Ship #2 going at .9C) (Laser, at 1.0C) (Ship #1 at 0.1C) > | | >--> ------------------------ >--> > | Earth |---------------------------------------------------- >--> > | | (Laser, going at 1.0C) > /-------\ > [] Help me net, but light can't go faster than light. If a laser is fire from a moving ship, that laser's speed will be 1.0C relative to EARTH. If, and mean a big IF, a ship could travel at say, 1.5C, then a laser that was fired would end up being passed by the ship as it fired it. The laser probably couldn't even get started as the ship was going faster than the light it was trying to create. Another good point, how can anyone see anything inside of a ship that was going the speed of light or faster? The whole spectrum would be shifted so that we couldn't see anything. -- |------------| | |-------| o| JVC HRD725U Mr. Video | | | o| |--------------| | | | | | |----| o o o | | |-------| O| |--------------| |------------| VHS Hi-Fi (the only way to go) (!ihnp4!uwvax!astroatc!nic_vax!brown) ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!brl-tgr!jcp From: jcp@brl-tgr.ARPA (Joe Pistritto ) Subject: Speed of light Date: 9 May 85 20:53:07 GMT Organization: Ballistic Research Lab The effect your forgetting in the two lasers in space problem is known as the Lorentz transformation. Basically, the velocities don't add linearly because TIME is lengthened by an amount which is related to one over the square root of the quantity (1 - v/c). You will note that as v (velocity) approaches c (the speed of light), the quantity approaches zero, so the fraction approaches infinity. This gives the effective slowing of time as c is approached. This also has the effect of reducing velocity (velocity is defined as distance over time...). Since the fraction is asymptotic as v approaches c, you are guaranteed never to exceed c. (The physics types call this 'an important theoretical result', meaning if you prove it wrong, you get a Nobel Prize, no questions asked!) -JCP- PS: Lorentz already got his prize, but they don't take them back if your theory is proved wrong, so don't let that hold you back... ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 85 22:27:19 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Off the wall? To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A I suspect flatulance can cause some interesting aerobatics... ------------------------------ From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Thu, 9 May 85 10:38:17 PDT To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC Subject: Re: Speed Of Light (Jeff Harrow) I've seen this kind of problem before. It stems, in part, from the problem of mounting a machine gun on a jet that flies faster than the muzzle velocity of the gun. The simplest way to explain this is that the speed of light (C) is an absolute constant that is relative to the universe itself and not conditioned by the contents of the universe. The universe has rules, and you can't break the rules by going faster. /Bruce N. Wheelock/ arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw ------------------------------ From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Thu, 9 May 85 10:36:12 PDT To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC Subject: space station funding/reply to Skran Fact of life--budgets are going to get cut. There is no sense pretending otherwise. Yes, chopping NASA funds is stupid; it sells the future short. And, yes, I have written to Senator Wilson to tell him how I feel. What I was trying to say is that when the cuts come anyway, it would be better to spend the money on something that will generate a result. We still have a lot to learn and one never knows what benefit may be gained by some new bit of knowledge until it happens. Think of all the research that would never have been done if nobody could predict a benefit. We also have some learning to do before we put a space station up there. There are a lot of techniques and technologies involved that have not been shown to be workable as yet. The shuttle has proven a good many things, including the fact that a pretty fair number of spacecraft systems have a tendency to breakdown under the load. That won't do in a space station. /Bruce N. Wheelock/ arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw ------------------------------ From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Thu, 9 May 85 10:34:29 PDT To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC Subject: Reply to Re: NASA Budget Cuts! (George Lake) >Are we increasing benefits to the poor? NO Although I feel the concept of cutting NASA's budget for any reason is foolish and may be called criminal by future generations, Mr. Lake has mis- understood the argument just slightly. It isn't that the money cut from NASA has been given over to welfare/poor. Rather, cutting x dollars from NASA supposedly means that x dollars don't have to be cut from programs for the poor. This is, of course, stupid. The whole of NASA's budget is only a small fraction of the welfare budget. DOD probably spends more money running officer and enlisted clubs (read "bars"), swimming pools, golf courses, and similar non-essentials. [Before anyone jumps on me for this last, I'm active duty career military. They are supposed to be my benefits. I say that they ARE unimportant. Cut them, not NASA.] /Bruce N. Wheelock/ arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!princeton!astrovax!escher!doug From: escher!doug (Douglas J Freyburger) Subject: Re: Galileo mission to Jupiter Date: 9 May 85 04:34:24 GMT Organization: NASA/JPL, Pasadena, CA > The Orbiter will fly within a few hundred kilometers of the > surface of Mars. The Orbiter will use Mars' gravity and a long > burn of its own rocket motor to boost it the rest of the way to > Jupiter. This manuever and the fly-by of an asteriod near its projected flight path were still up in the air last I heard. By the way, the advantage of the burn close to Mars is that the kinetic energy difference in relation to the sun is gained by the space craft. Losing the mass inside the gravity well gains that much energy from Mars's gravitational field. I went over the equations on that several years ago before I believed it. Don't remember it exactly anymore. > The Orbiter will complete 11 orbits of Jupiter while making a > close flyby of one Galilean satellite - Io, Europa, Ganymede or > Callisto - on each orbit. The only time it will get close to Io is on the first pass. There is too much radiation that deep in, so most of the mission is being kept farther out. Still, the craft will get more than enough Rads to fry any of us. DOUG@JPL-VLSI, ...trwrb!escher!doug, etc. Douglas J Freyburger ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!mit-eddie!think!pbear!peterb From: pbear!peterb Subject: Re: reentry of paper airplanes? Date: 7 May 85 22:47:00 GMT Dick, I'm sorry, I should have stated that when someone was on an EVA, take the paper airplane and THROW it toward the ground and against the orbit. I think (don't have a simulator handy) that this would cause the paper airplane to leave orbit and start a reentry. As the density of the air increases, the paper airplane would(should) stabilze itself and slow down at a fast enough rate (since it's drag/weight is quite high) to prevent it from burning up when it hits the heavier atmosphere. The only problem I can see is how longit would take to reach a stabilized position. Peter Barada ima!pbear!peterb ihnp4!inmet!pbear!peterb ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!mcc-db!ables From: mcc-db!ables (King Ables) Subject: Re: Speed Of Light Date: 10 May 85 01:03:45 GMT Organization: MCC (Austin, TX) [Aha! I knew I kept those notes from Physics for something!] The formula for adding velocity vectors (assuming you accept Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity rather than Newtonian physics) is: v1 + v2 V = ------------ total (v1)(v2) 1+ -------- 2 C As v1 and v2 tend to "small", the denominator tends to "insignificantly larger than 1", so the whole fraction tends to (v1+v2)/1 which is what we normally think of. If we're adding .5c and .5c, we get a more complicated answer. The denominator is significantly larger than 1, so the total is significantly < v1+v2. -King ARPA: ables@mcc UUCP: {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!mcc-db!ables ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!brl-tgr!jcp From: jcp@brl-tgr.ARPA (Joe Pistritto ) Subject: Re: Galileo mission to Jupiter Date: 10 May 85 02:26:18 GMT Reply-To: jcp@brl-tgr.ARPA (Joe Pistritto ) Organization: Ballistic Research Lab Ok, I've heard lots of times about the 'gravity assist' maneuver used to sometimes dramatically increase the speed of a spacecraft by flying close to a bigger mass. Now the question is, how does this work? I understand that you would gain energy by dropping weight when inside a gravity well (and having the velocity vector pointed so that you could make it out, now lighter and requiring less energy), but is that the ONLY cause of the acceleration? I thought that this effect was also due to rotating the velocity vector of the spacecraft. I've also heard that the maneuver works best when you get closest to the object being slingshot off of. Is this true? (it would seem so) -JCP- ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #154 ******************* 11-May-85 0353 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #155 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 155 Today's Topics: Getting Stuck re: Speed of light truax Atmospheric drag, speed-of-light (universal rules?) Re: reentry of paper airplanes? Re: Speed of light space station funding/reply to Skran Gravity Slingshots Re: Galileo mission to Jupiter Re: reentry of paper airplanes? Re: NASA Budget Cuts! cancel <1488@orca.UUCP> Re: Speed Of Light re: Speed of Light ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Friday, 10 May 1985 07:31-EDT From: jrv@Mitre-Bedford To: SPACE@MIT-MC Subject: Getting Stuck I would think that the obvious method of propulsion in zero-G would be wings (or maybe your shirt, in an emergency). - Jim Van Zandt ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 1985 09:29:24-EDT From: rachiele@NADC To: space@mit-mc Subject: re: Speed of light The basis of the theory of relitivity is that the speed of light is Always the same, regardless of your velocity. Think of the speed of light as the limit of all velocity, and light particles having infinate speed (but limited by C). Thus, light moves at C, even if you are going at .99C relitive to some other object. Jim Rachiele (rachiele@nadc.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 May 85 07:59:36 pdt From: conrad <@csnet-relay.arpa,@ucsc.CSNET (Al Conrad):conrad@ucsc.CSNET> To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: truax I spoke with Robert Truax last month at the "Future Expo" in San Francisco where he had a booth to drum up money. His project is now called "Project Private Enterprise". He had his rocket there (which fits on a trailer that could be pulled by a truck). Evidently, they are coming up on the parachute deployment test, in which they drop it from a helicopter. The pacing item for the test launch was the arrival of some new component for the rocket engine. The plan is still to shoot the astronaut up 50 miles (loose definition of 'in space') and out over the Pacific Ocean. Potential launch sites include the place in Oxnard that is building the fake space hotel, a spot near Monterey, and I believe a spot near San Diego. I visited Truax at his home several times seven years ago and, in my oppinion, his project is making methodical (albeit slow) progress. As before, we talked mostly about his use of computers, which in the past were used exclusively for the collection and analysis of rocket test data. He now, however, is using a personal computer for the pre-launch checklist and this may evolve into a semi-automated launch sequence. I think projects like Truax's need the support of space enthusiasts. Did anyone catch the public television, Martin Sheen special on the history of space exploration that aired last night? The documentary showed that throughout history space enthusiasts start out as idealistic innovators, but inevitably get sucked into huge military projects (V2, ICBM, SDI, ... ) because that's where the resources are. Al Conrad ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 1985 0732 PST From: Richard B. August Subject: Atmospheric drag, speed-of-light (universal rules?) To: space-enthusiasts@mit-mc Cc: crash!bnw@dcsvax Reply-To: AUGUST@JPL-VLSI.ARPA >From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA >Date: Thu, 9 May 85 10:38:17 PDT >To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC >Subject: Re: Speed Of Light (Jeff Harrow) > > I've seen this kind of problem before. It stems, in part, from the >problem of mounting a machine gun on a jet that flies faster than the muzzle >velocity of the gun. > The simplest way to explain this is that the speed of light (C) is an >absolute constant that is relative to the universe itself and not conditioned >by the contents of the universe. The universe has rules, and you can't break >the rules by going faster. > /Bruce N. Wheelock/ > arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd > uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw When you mention "...the problem of mounting a machine gun on a jet that flies faster than the muzzle velocity of the gun" are you alluding to the phenomenon of the expelled projectile loosing velocity after leaving the muzzle? This is actually a result of atmospheric drag causing the projectile to loose energy. As we learned at Pensacola, FL "...after firing a short burst...pull up!" You also mention that "The universe has rules, and you can't break the rules by going faster". This assumes that we know all the rules. Regards, Richard ------ ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!zehntel!dual!ames!eugene From: ames!eugene (Eugene Miya) Subject: Re: reentry of paper airplanes? Date: 8 May 85 00:47:06 GMT Organization: NASA-Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA At the Ames Research Center, we have about two dozen wind tunnels used to test a variety of conditions. They range in different air velocities, pressures, and other conditions. Recently in Science, the editor made a some what bogus statement that computers have replaced wind tunnels. You may have seen in recent postings that there is debate about where money is spent in NASA [say: not on the Space Shuttle or not on the Space Station]. My immediate supervisor calls Ames "part of the little A in NASA" meaning "Aeronautics." We are poorly funded by comparison to the Shuttle or Space Station although the tiles were developed here [not the glue!] and we sometimes live off the perpheral edges of the Shuttle and Station. This situation tends to worry some people here. What does this have to do with airplanes? Many months ago, the Associate Director of NASA, Hans Mark, stopped by here. He noted the above concern and he pointed out that we use wind tunnels as test beds to reentry design. He suggested that we start to consider the Space Station as the next platform (testbed) from which to start scale models reentering the earth's atmosphere (rather than a wind tunnel). Our 'arm" will be the space station, and while the planes won't be made of paper, this idea is under consideration. Second note: Re: stuck in space. There are films from the Skylab days showing swimming motions in the air without the benefit of pushing off walls or objects. It's slow, but you get there. --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,decwrl,allegra}!ames!aurora!eugene @ames-vmsb.ARPA:emiya@jup.DECNET ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 May 85 10:02 CDT From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: Speed of light To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Organization: Honeywell Computer Sciences Center, Bloomington MN The speed of light is one of those things that always gets people mixed up. The speed of light is constant in all frames of reference. In the example you described, the two light beams would both be going at C, but their wavelengths would appear different to the observer in Ship1. The beam from ship2 would be blue-shifted. You would have to do some reading to get a better explanation. Asimov probably has something that explains this well. I woudl suggest Asimov's three part physics book. I don't remember the title, but it is excellent. It also goes through most of modern physics in a very reasonable understandable way. Brett Slocum (ARPA: Slocum@HI-MULTICS) (UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum) ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 10 May 1985 12:16-EDT From: jrv@Mitre-Bedford To: SPACE@MIT-MC Subject: space station funding/reply to Skran > We also have some learning to do before we put a space station up there. > There are a lot of techniques and technologies involved that have not been > shown to be workable as yet. The shuttle has proven a good many things, > including the fact that a pretty fair number of spacecraft systems have a > tendency to breakdown under the load. That won't do in a space station. > /Bruce N. Wheelock/ Why not? Breakdowns aren't that big a deal if there's someone there with the knowledge and tools to fix them. Life support systems have to work, of course - but even there the backup systems only have to work long enough to get the primary systems running again. L-5 News had a thought-provoking article a while back on the premise that we're overkilling the engineering of the space station because we're designing it like an aerospace vehicle (which has to survive acceleration loads, shocks, and vibrations, and which may fall out of the sky if something goes wrong) instead of like a building (which can normally be repaired if it breaks). - Jim Van Zandt ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 1985 09:00-PDT From: king@Kestrel.ARPA Subject: Gravity Slingshots To: space@mc In what follows I will assume that the traveler wants to enlarge his/her/its orbit (No Carbon Chauvanism!) Heuristically, you gain in two ways from a gravity slingshot: 1> Suppose you don't ignite your rocket, but you pass the massive object on its trailing side in its orbit. You get a forward component to your velocity vector. In the object's frame of reference, your speed remains the same but your direction has shifted "forward". 2> If you accelerate at perigee, you add to your speed. You could have done that burning anywhere, but in addition to the additional speed YOU LOSE LESS SPEED CLIMBING OUT OF THE GRAVITY WELL THAN YOU GAINED GOING IN, BECAUSE YOU CLIMB OUT FASTER THAN YOU WENT IN. -dick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 May 85 10:57:33 pdt From: Ross Finlayson Subject: Re: Galileo mission to Jupiter To: space@mit-mc The way I've always understood this is as follows: If the gravity assisting planet (Mars say) were \stationary/ (wrt. some fixed reference point), then after the gravity assist, the spacecraft's velocity (wrt. the reference point) would be unchanged, except for direction. In practice, however, the planet is \itself/ in motion (around the Sun), so some of the planet's kinetic energy (and thus velocity) is transferred to the spacecraft. That is, gravity assist works because the planet effectively "drags along" the spacecraft, not just because the planet is "sitting there". Please correct me if this is wrong. Ross. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 May 85 11:00:33 pdt From: Ross Finlayson Subject: Re: reentry of paper airplanes? To: space@mit-mc It seems to me that you would have to throw the paper airplane awfully hard in order for the resulting velocity (vector) to produce a trajectory that reenters the Earth's atmosphere. Otherwise even the mildest burst of the shuttle's attitude jets might cause reentry! Don't forget how large an orbiting shuttle's velocity vector is relative to the Earth. Ross. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew From: orca!andrew (Andrew Klossner) Subject: Re: NASA Budget Cuts! Date: 10 May 85 02:54:15 GMT Organization: Tektronix, Wilsonville OR [] "The best argument I can think of to pursuade the non-space-interested citizen that NASA budgets should not be cut is to ask them where we would be today if, in 1492, Queen Isabella had given Columbus's funding to the poor instead. If no-one had funded Columbus (and successors) can you imagine how overcrowded Europe would be today if all the people here of European ancestry were born there instead. Also, look at how many millions of people world-wide are now fed by our huge grain farms both here & in Canada, etc. Who, in 1492, could have imagined 747's capable of delivering 200,000 pounds of food from the US to Africa in half a day? Who, in 1985, can imagine what immense benefits will flow to Earth from Mars, the asteroids, etc. in 500 years?" Columbus was an Italian citizen who couldn't get his government to fund his exploration, so he went to the foreign government of Spain. By analogy, then, Americans seeking funding for space exploration should go to another powerful country. Perhaps Japan. The argument doesn't hold up for other reasons. If Spain had refused Columbus and he had given up, someone else would have come along. Columbus was by no means unique; there were other explorers in that era who had non-government funding. When it's time to railroad, you railroad. Please post articles on this subject to net.space only, leaving net.columbia off the list, as I have. Net.columbia is meant for discussions of on-going space shuttle missions only, and is read by people who want to keep up on day-to-day space operations. -=- Andrew Klossner (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew) [UUCP] (orca!andrew.tektronix@csnet-relay) [ARPA] ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew From: orca!andrew Subject: cancel <1488@orca.UUCP> Date: 10 May 85 02:51:12 GMT Control: cancel <1488@orca.UUCP> Reply-To: andrew@orca.UUCP (Andrew Klossner) Organization: Tektronix, Wilsonville OR <1488@orca.UUCP> cancelled from rn. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxm!mhuxi!vax135!miles From: vax135!miles (Miles Murdocca) Subject: Re: Speed Of Light Date: 10 May 85 12:18:59 GMT Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Holmdel, NJ >> ... An introductory dialogue to a scenario of spacehsips and lasers >> to ask the question: > If C IS relative (perhaps a poor word (or the operative problem?) to be > using here) to a base, then it would seem that MANY things could go > "faster than light", but if it's NOT relative to a base, "how can that > be"? The key to all of this relativity stuff is who the observer is. You mentioned that the lasers and ships were going at velocities relative to some other objects (like Earth, or the ships) so you are halfway there. Now, let yourself be the observer (in the ship farthest away as you had suggested). The ship with the laser will appear to be moving through a much shorter distance than it actually is (space shrinks for a moving body), and the observed speed of light will remain the same. I am not a physicist, but I am told by a physicist friend that it is not known whether or not it is possible to go faster than the speed of light. But if a body moves faster than the speed of light, then it can't move slower than the speed of light. The transition can't be made. Miles Murdocca, 4B-525, AT&T Bell Laboratories, Crawfords Corner Rd, Holmdel, NJ, 07733, (201) 949-2504, ...{ihnp4}!vax135!miles ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!houxm!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!uw-june!dtuttle From: dtuttle@uw-june.ARPA (David C. Tuttle) Subject: re: Speed of Light Date: 10 May 85 05:42:30 GMT Organization: U of Washington Computer Science Well, there's nothing like a layman that can (try to) explain things to another layman, so concerning the Speed of Light problem, I'll give it a shot (trying to remember my sophomore-level physics from 6 years ago): > \-------/ (Ship #2 going at .9C) (Laser, at 1.0C) (Ship #1 at 0.1C) > | | >--> ------------------------ >--> > | Earth|---------------------------------------------------- >--> > | | (Laser, going at 1.0C) > /-------\ > Ship #1 took off first, a LONG time ago, going in the same direction at > 0.1C (relative to Earth!). > Ship #2 now takes off going at .9C (relative to Earth!) and fires a > SECOND laser in the same direction, said second laser traveling at 1.0C > (relative to Ship #2, NOT to Earth!!). > Hence, BOTH lasers are going at 1.0C, but RELATIVE TO DIFFERENT BASES. > When both lasers get to Ship #1, won't the laser from Earth have an > apparent speed of .9C (C minus the speed of Ship #1 (.1C)), and won't > the laser from Ship #2 have an apparent speed of 1.8C (.9C Ship #2 > velocity plus 1.0C speed of laser minus 0.1C velocity of Ship #1)? The problem here is thinking of relativistic speeds as being LINEAR. In fact, they are NOT (0.9c + 0.9c does NOT equal 1.8c). Instead, the speed of light is ASYMPTOTIC. A ship traveling at 0.9c would view a laser overtaking it at 1.0c as going by at 1.0c, not 0.1c (although it might be severely blueshifted (?))! So, when you say the second laser travels at 1.0c relative to Ship #2, but not to Earth, that is wrong. It is 1.0c relative to ALL frames of reference. In fact, "relativity" is a misnomer in that sense, because the speed of light comes out as absolute as ever! The only difference in the lasers will be that of the Doppler effect (redshift and blueshift). So, any ship approaching 1.0c can still be passed by light at 1.0c, thus the ship can never bridge that gap and travel at lightspeed... True physicists are now free to punch holes in this layman's arguments. ============================================================================ "No matter where you go, there you are..." David C. Tuttle -- Buckaroo Banzai Computer Sci. Dept. U. of Washington ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #155 ******************* 12-May-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #156 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 156 Today's Topics: Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Re: Shuttle Coverage on Cable News Network Learning for Space Station? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!hao!hplabs!hpda!fortune!polard From: fortune!polard (Henry Polard) Subject: Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Date: 10 May 85 16:13:57 GMT Reply-To: polard@fortune.UUCP (Henry polard) Organization: Fortune Systems, Redwood City, CA In article <1637@mordor.UUCP> @S1-A.ARPA,@MIT-MC:hqm@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA writes: >From: Henry Minsky > > > This is something I have wondered about for a long time: If you are >in the middle of a large air-filled room in zero-g, and you find >yourself with no velocity, is it possible to "swim" to one of the walls, >i.e., by flapping your arms, kicking your legs, waving your shirt... I heard that the Challenger astronoauts could move around with a rapid doggie-paddle swimming stroke. I guess moving in air is somewhat like moving in water. You might also move yourself by blowing hard. -- Henry Polard (You bring the flames - I'll bring the marshmallows.) {ihnp4,cbosgd,amd}!fortune!polard N.B: The words in this posting do not necessarily express the opinions of me, my employer, or any AI project. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!hao!asgb!tomm From: asgb!tomm (Tom Mackey) Subject: Re: Shuttle Coverage on Cable News Network Date: 11 May 85 20:54:19 GMT Organization: Burroughs Corp. ASG, Boulder Colo. > I long for the days of my youth, when the entire country sat on the > edge of its seat (figuratively speaking) for the entire duration of > an Apollo mission. Forget this crock about the declining newsworthy- > ness of space being an indicator of how commonplace it has become -- > I still find it fascinating and wish the media paid more attention! > > > Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 I agree! I have had the pleasure of being directly involved with the space shuttle (HRSI project at LMSC) and would love to see better news coverage. If anyone out there is connected with netwok news coverage, consider this my vote for improved coverage of all space missions. I get particularly dissapointed when I get up several hours early to watch the shuttle liftoff only to find nothing on but inane early morning talk shows. Even CNN has of late been letting us down. Tom Mackey Burroughs ASG {sdcsvax sabre}bmcg!asgb!tomm ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 85 22:05:48 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Learning for Space Station? To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A I seriously doubt there is a great deal that we REALLY need to learn to put up a space station. Much research WILL be done, because that is the nature of NASA. The true facts are, the space station is nothing but an enginerring project, requires essentially no new learning to be done on the ground, and could best be done by getting the damn thing up and dealing with the problems by making the necessary ECO's on orbit. This would get us a station in a few years at a fraction of the NASA cost. But it is not much use griping, because at the moment NASA is the only game in town, inefficient or not. Besides which, if they had to ship up spare parts because the thermostat failed, can you imagine the difference in headlines between a NASA and a private station? NASA (front page): Astronauts Saved From Frigid Fate: Congress to Investigate Private (buried in business section): Thermostat Shipped to Space Station I can hardly wait until in-orbit failures and repairs are as newsworthy as fixing a sportscar on an interstate. (Hopefully though, the station will be slightly more reliable than the MG I used to drive) ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #156 ******************* 13-May-85 0351 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #157 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 157 Today's Topics: Re: Getting UNSTUCK in the middle of space Re: Funding wars Speed Of Light (explain this too) Re: Speed Of Light (explain this too) Shuttle TV coverage Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Re: SPACE Digest V5 #148 Re: Speed Of Light Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!sun!amdahl!ems From: amdahl!ems (ems) Subject: Re: Getting UNSTUCK in the middle of space Date: 11 May 85 06:11:33 GMT Organization: Circle C Shellfish Ranch, Shores-of-the-Pacific, Ca > an ordinary bicycle tire pump. All these ideas center around the > standard principle that all rockets work by ...ically Er, one could, um, auh, ynow, use a, er liquid jet. After coffee one has at least a pint or so of 'reaction mass'. Just a thought ... and only in an emergency ... -- E. Michael Smith ...!{hplabs,ihnp4,amd,nsc}!amdahl!ems Tilapia Zilli is the way and the light. This is the obligatory disclaimer of everything. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!mtuxo!mtgzz!dls From: mtgzz!dls (d.l.skran) Subject: Re: Funding wars Date: 10 May 85 22:25:31 GMT Organization: AT&T Information Systems Labs, Holmdel NJ You have correctly identified Dr. Van Allen as one of the "big name" scientists who oppose manned space flight. He has spoken against both the space shuttle and the space station. For a history of a scientist who started out against the space shuttle and switched sides, read Dr. Brian O'Leary's "Project Space Station." Dr. O'Leary is now one of the foremost advocates of the space station. The time has come to ask: What do we need more - scientists studying the atmosphere of Titan or scientists developing resources in space for Earthly benefit? I'd love to have both, but ... Speaking for himself, Dale Skran ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!ukma!sean From: ukma!sean (Sean Casey) Subject: Speed Of Light (explain this too) Date: 11 May 85 01:56:56 GMT Organization: The White Tower @ The Univ. of KY Summary: Another Illustration My example is something that has been bothering me for years. Ship A (v = .6c) Ship B (v = .6c) ------------------------------> <------------------------------ Consider yourself to be aboard ship A. Assume there are no stars, no points of reference except ship B. To you, your ship appears to be standing still. According to relativity, when ship B flys by, it is approaching you at no more than c. How can this be? Time dilation? How can time dilation be a function of speed, when speed is a meaningless concept without references? -- - Sean Casey - - UUCP: {hasmed,cbosgd}!ukma!sean or ucbvax!anlams!ukma!sean - ARPA: ukma!sean<@ANL-MCS> or sean%ukma.uucp@anl-mcs.arpa - - "We're all bozos on this bus." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 May 85 14:00:39 pdt From: Rick McGeer To: anlams!ukma!sean@Berkeley Subject: Re: Speed Of Light (explain this too) Cc: space@mit-mc.ARPA Well, in fact you are observing the objects A and B from a third reference frame with observer, C, and we presume that observers in A, B, and C all have meter sticks, clocks and what have you. From the question we say that in C's reference frame, both A and B are moving in one dimension on opposite vectors with velocity .6 c. The question is, in A's reference frame, what is B's velocity? From Tipler, pg 680, we obtain: u(x') = (u(x) - v)/(1 - v u(x) / c^2) where v is the velocity of A in the frame of C, u(x) is the velocity of B in the frame of C, and u(x') is the velocity of B in the frame of A. Solving for u(x) = -v = -.6c, we get: u(x') = -1.2c/1.36 or almost exactly -.97c. Rick. ps -- the formula I gave above can be obtained by differentiating the Lorentz Transform: x' = gamma (x - vt) where v is the velocity of the frame S' in terms of the frame S. R. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 May 85 14:21:28 pdt From: Ross Finlayson Subject: Shuttle TV coverage To: space@mit-mc I get particularly dissapointed when I get up several hours early to watch the shuttle liftoff only to find nothing on but inane early morning talk shows. Even CNN has of late been letting us down. NBC seems to be far and away the best of the three broadcast networks in this respect. In the Pacific time zone at least, it showed (albeit brief) live coverage of the last two shuttle launches. Each time, CBS and ABC stayed with their chat shows. So, kudos to NBC for giving us even this paltry amount of coverage. As much as I hate to admit it, though, I think we have to resign ourselves to the fact that as shuttle flights become more and more routine, public interest, and thus TV coverage, is going to wane even further. Ross. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcc3!sdcc13!ee163ahj From: sdcc13!ee163ahj (PAUL VAN DE GRAAF) Subject: Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Date: 11 May 85 13:31:32 GMT Reply-To: ee163ahj@sdcc13.UUCP (PAUL VAN DE GRAAF) Organization: U.C. San Diego, Academic Computer Center [] Pardon me for suggesting, but couldn't the astronaut just relieve himself (herself) in the opposite direction. While this rather messy, and certainly more embarassing than removing his shorts. I'm sure it would be effective, and if he's stuck there, the call to nature will come along soon enough. A bit faster and just as directional as blowing/whistling might be. I'm sorry I brought it up... Paul van de Graaf sdcsvax!sdcc13!ee163ahj U. C. San Diego ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!randvax!kovacs!rivero From: kovacs!rivero (Michael Foster Rivero) Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #148 Date: 9 May 85 16:16:36 GMT Organization: Robt Abel & Assoc, Hollywood Summary:Truax and Kneival Expires: Sender: Reply-To: rivero@kovacs.UUCP (Michael Foster Rivero) Followup-To: Organization: Robert Abel and Associates, Hollywood Keywords: Truax, Rocket, Kneival In article <> @S1-A.ARPA,@MIT-MC:lazear@mitre.ARPA writes: >From: Walt Lazear > >Regarding Bob Truax, I seem to remember interviews with him on TV. >I may be entirely wrong, but didn't he build the rocket that Evil >Kneival used to try to jump the Snake River? It was either that, >or he was trying to drum up backing for his private efforts to >provide civilian space launches. Can anyone confirm the Kneival >connection? > Walt (Lazear at MITRE) Truax did indeed build the steam rocket that Kneival used is his Snake River jump. The rocket was fueled (I recall ) with a Hydrogen Peroxide plus catalyst (Potassium Permangenate, maybe) steam jet, but failed in its jump when the bolt holding the parachute release mechanism failed during the launch. Apparently, this one critical component was never magnafluxed to check for cracks. The reason? Not enough money. (Congressional members please note.) Michael Rivero ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ihnp4!cbosgd!ukma!edward From: ukma!edward (Edward C. Bennett) Subject: Re: Speed Of Light Date: 11 May 85 02:32:08 GMT Organization: U of Kentucky, Mathematical Sciences, Lexington KY [ Eat at Joe's ] You're misinterpreting your own diagram. Light always travels a c. The speed of it's source is irrelevant. Ship B (the one @ 0.1c) will observe the two laser beams to be identical. They'll be red-shifted due to B's motion, but identical. I think. -- edward {ucbvax,unmvax,boulder,research}!anlams! -| {mcvax!qtlon,vax135,mddc}!qusavx! -|--> ukma!edward | {decvax,ihnp4,mhuxt,seismo}! -+-> cbosgd! -| {clyde,osu-eddie,ulysses}! ---| "Well, what's on the television then?" "Looks like a penguin." () | |-- Support barrier free design /|--- | \ _ \___/ \= ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!orca!warner From: orca!warner (Ken Warner) Subject: Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Date: 11 May 85 16:34:23 GMT Reply-To: warner@orca.UUCP (Ken Warner) Organization: Tektronix, Wilsonville OR [BUGS] A while back, I made a suggestion of little note regarding getting caught with your velocity down. It was to arm each astronaut with a spring loaded dart gun. The dart would have some sticky stuff on the end and would trail a light weight line. It was proposed to be used on EVA's in the event the jet pack failed. But here is another chance to disregard the idea. :^> Ken Warner ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #157 ******************* 14-May-85 0352 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #158 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 158 Today's Topics: Speed of Light and beyond Re: Getting UNSTUCK in the middle of space Re: speed of light Re: Speed Of Light (explain this too) Challenger Back at KSC Swimming in air, etc Re: Budget cuts Re: Galileo mission to Jupiter Re: Swimming in space questions about the theory of relativity HELP REQUEST FOR SIMULATION COURSE ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 May 1985 0947 PST From: Ron Tencati Subject: Speed of Light and beyond To: space@mit-mc Reply-To: TENCATI@JPL-VLSI.ARPA I know this is impossible, but what would happen if... A ship could exceed the speed of light? When the space shuttle crosses the sound barrier, there is a sonic boom. If it were possible to cross the "light barrier", what phenomenon would result? Ron Tencati JPL-VLSI ------ ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!lanl!jkw From: jkw@lanl.ARPA Subject: Re: Getting UNSTUCK in the middle of space Date: 13 May 85 18:47:53 GMT Sender: newsreader@lanl.ARPA Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory > > an ordinary bicycle tire pump. All these ideas center around the > > standard principle that all rockets work by ...ically > > Er, one could, um, auh, ynow, use a, er liquid jet. After coffee > one has at least a pint or so of 'reaction mass'. Just a thought ... > and only in an emergency ... > -- > > E. Michael Smith ...!{hplabs,ihnp4,amd,nsc}!amdahl!ems > > Tilapia Zilli is the way and the light. > > This is the obligatory disclaimer of everything. ...Not to mention that the, er, uh, spigot or um, nozzle, is fairly near the center of gravity... ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 13 May 85 22:21:58 EDT From: lucas (pete lucas) @ cmu-psy-a Subject: Re: speed of light To: space @ mit-mc.ARPA If you'd really like to get a handle on this relativity stuff relatively painlessly, let me suggest that you go to the horse's mouth: There is a marvelous little book called "Relativity: The Special and General Theory, A Popular Exposition" by one A. Einstein. Let me quote from the author's Preface: The present book is intended, as far as possible, to give an exact insight into the theory of Relativity to those readers who, for a general scientific and philosophical point of view, are interested in the theory, but who are not conversant with the mathematical apparatus of theoretical physics. The work presumes a standard of education corresponding to that of a university matriculation examination, and, despite the shortness of the book, a fair amount of patience and force of will on the part of the reader.... The book was written in 1916, but the reference for my copy is New York: Crown Publishers, 1961. -Pete Lucas, CMU ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!eder From: ssc-vax!eder (Dani Eder) Subject: Re: Speed Of Light (explain this too) Date: 11 May 85 20:20:42 GMT Organization: Boeing Aerospace Co., Seattle, WA > > My example is something that has been bothering me for years. > > Ship A (v = .6c) Ship B (v = .6c) > ------------------------------> > <------------------------------ > > Consider yourself to be aboard ship A. Assume there are no stars, no points > of reference except ship B. To you, your ship appears to be standing still. > According to relativity, when ship B flys by, it is approaching you at no more > than c. > > How can this be? Time dilation? How can time dilation be a function of speed, You have contradicted yourself. If there are no external reference points, then there is no way to measure Ship A as moving at 0.6c to the right. It moving to the right implies to the right WITH RESPECT TO THE CRT SCREEN, ie an external reference. Ship B will appear to be moving towards you at .882c. You will appear to yourself to be moving at v=0. The relative velocity will be less than c. Dani Eder / Boeing Company / ssc-vax!eder ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!mhuxt!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Challenger Back at KSC Date: 12 May 85 00:15:29 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill Challenger returned to KSC atop a 747 today, after leaving EAFB yesterday and spending the night in Texas. It will be readied for another Spacelab flight, due to take off on 15 July. Meanwhile, Discovery is being prepared for its 14 June liftoff; it is scheduled to carry three communications satellites and a scientific payload. Atlantis is being prepared for its maiden launch, a secret DoD mission, in September. ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 85 23:20:59 EDT From: JoSH Subject: Swimming in air, etc To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA "Swimming" in air is no different from swimming underwater, except that air is 800 or so times less dense than water, so you obtain 800 times less impetus from a given stroke. Of course the stroke is easier to make, but not 800 times so. I have found (by experiment) that one can obtain 5 or so pounds of thrust in air using a large (12") model airplane propellor and an electric motor small enough to hold in one hand (from a weed trimmer, if you're interested). An average person could get 1 f/s^2 out of this, so only a few seconds of use would be needed for any one movement. Thus I would expect that a unit with fold-up prop, rare-earth motor, and nicads could be built to last a normal day's use without recharging and be a conveniently clip-on-belt sized item. --JoSH ------- ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!utzoo!henry From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Budget cuts Date: 12 May 85 00:17:10 GMT Organization: U of Toronto Zoology > ...he denies the Planetary Society has lobbied against the > space station. As far as I know at this point, as an organization, this > appears to be true. I do not yet know whether the people who run the society > are among those who are attacking the station... The Planetary Society is essentially a wholly-owned subsidiary of Carl Sagan. Not literally, but that's the practical result. Checking up on him should suffice. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!utzoo!henry From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Galileo mission to Jupiter Date: 12 May 85 05:16:05 GMT Organization: U of Toronto Zoology > Ok, I've heard lots of times about the 'gravity assist' > maneuver used to sometimes dramatically increase the speed of > a spacecraft by flying close to a bigger mass. Now the question > is, how does this work? I understand that you would gain energy > by dropping weight when inside a gravity well (and having the > velocity vector pointed so that you could make it out, now lighter > and requiring less energy), but is that the ONLY cause of the > acceleration? I thought that this effect was also due to rotating > the velocity vector of the spacecraft. There are two separate types of maneuver here. One, classically called a "gravity-well" maneuver, flies very close to a large mass so that an engine burn can be made at the lowest possible potential energy. The other, often called a "gravity-boost" maneuver, is a three-body maneuver (the Sun is usually the third body) using gravity alone to transfer some momentum from a large body to the spacecraft. The gravity-well maneuver exploits the difference between momentum and kinetic energy to give the spacecraft higher final velocity. How much velocity you gain from an engine burn is a matter of momentum; how much you gain or lose to a gravity field is a matter of energy. Since energy is proportional to the *square* of velocity, and leaving a gravity field subtracts a fixed amount of energy, the higher the velocity with which you start to leave a gravity field, the less velocity you lose to gravity. So an engine burn's effect is magnified if you fly into a handy gravity field before making it. The scales remain balanced: you carry the fuel down with you and don't bring it back up, so it loses energy. The gravity-boost maneuver exploits relative motions. With respect to Jupiter, flying past Jupiter will only rotate your velocity vector, and cannot change its magnitude. The key is the words "with respect to Jupiter". If what you care about is velocity with respect to something else, and Jupiter is moving with respect to that something else, then you can gain or lose velocity. In the limiting case, an extremely tight hyperbola whips you around an almost 180-degree turn with respect to Jupiter. You leave heading almost exactly back along your approach path. So Jupiter-relative Vdepart = -Vapproach. If your approach was, say, along Jupiter's orbit in the reverse direction, then viewed from the Sun you were moving at Vapproach-Vjupiter on the way in, and on the way out you're at Vdepart-Vjupiter = -Vapproach-Vjupiter = -(Vapproach+Vjupiter). So your Sun-relative velocity vector has been flipped 180 degrees (hence the minus sign), but has also had 2*Vjupiter added to it. There is nothing magic about it, since Jupiter has lost the same amount of Sun-relative momentum you've gained. But considering the relative masses, a given amount of momentum matters a lot more to you than to Jupiter! It is, of course, possible to combine the two effects. > I've also heard that the maneuver works best when you get > closest to the object being slingshot off of. Is this true? > (it would seem so) Both types of maneuver work best if you get as close as you can. The gravity-well maneuver works best if you convert as much potential energy as possible into kinetic energy first. The gravity-boost maneuver's results depend on how far your velocity vector rotates with respect to the body you're flying past; the closer the approach, the sharper the turn. Of course, you can only fly so close without hitting something. There was some interest in arranging Voyager 2's Neptune flyby to send it on to Pluto, but somebody calculated the approach distance and it came out to be several hundred kilometers *below* the cloud tops... -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!petrus!karn From: petrus!karn Subject: Re: Swimming in space Date: 11 May 85 01:43:10 GMT Organization: Bell Communications Research, Inc > Yes, it would. It has been noticed that objects that are floating in > mid air will start to drift, or change directions when the control rockets > fire to keep the shuttle pointed the right way, or just change directions. > If it does happen to an object, it should be the same for an astronaut. Of course, what's REALLY happening is that the objects remain stationary in their inertial reference frame, while the ship accelerates "around" them. I recall seeing a brief but amusing clip from one of the shuttle missions. Whenever one of the astronauts would release a roll of duct tape, it would slowly accelerate towards the right and bounce off the wall. If the astronaut let go of the handle he was holding, he'd also drift to the right and hit the wall. Obviously, an orbit maneuver was going on, but the orbiter is so massive that the acceleration given by the OMS is pretty small (1/2 m/sec/sec, depending on fuel and cargo load, seems about right from memory). Phil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 May 85 20:36 CDT From: Patrick_Duff To: Space@mit-mc.ARPA cc: Physics@sri-unix.ARPA, SF-Lovers@rutgers.ARPA Subject: questions about the theory of relativity While space-digest is answering questions from people who have always been bothered by some aspect of the theory of relativity, I have a few which have been puzzling me for some time. Is it theoretically possible to create a device which, after being "locked" onto an object (e.g., the Earth), could always tell you your velocity relative to that object (even after a period of near-light speed travel, various maneuvers, etc.)? I'm not talking about a computer which would perform calculations based upon a history file of past accelerations, but rather a "device" which reacts to the accelerations it experiences. What about a "clock" which would always tell you the time & date on the other object? It seems to me that if you can make either one you can make the other one as well; they are *almost* the same device, aren't they? If these devices are possible, would they require lots of mass (as massive as a planet, perhaps?) to achieve reasonable accuracy over inter-stellar distances, or could they be something more like a wrist-watch? An early science fiction book (\Skylark/ by E. E. Doc Smith) had another interesting device which was something like a compass; where-ever you were in the universe, it would point at whatever you had "locked" it onto (the farther away you were from the object, the longer it took the needle to stop moving, or the more power you had to feed it, or something like that; at one point the characters in the story measured this to find out not only the direction, but also the approximate distance to the object). In science fiction stories, the ease with which ships travel through time without traveling through space has always bothered me. If you could exchange one of the three space axes for a time axis (such as inside the event horizon of a black hole?), travel along it, and then rotate back, then to move 1 second you would have to travel approximately 186,000 miles. Am I missing something here? Also, what difference would it make whether you traveled that distance at a slow speed (.001 c) or a fast speed (.999 c)? Does such travel avoid any cause/effect paradoxes? After all, you would be staying within the cause/effect light-cone, wouldn't you? Finally (for now anyway), I have heard it said that Einstein's theory of relativity could be replaced by a quantum theory of gravity. I'm unconvinced; it seems to me that they concern fundamentally different aspects of the universe. regards, Patrick Patrick S. Duff, ***CR 5621*** pduff.ti-eg@csnet-relay 5049 Walker Dr. #91103 214/480-1659 (work) The Colony, TX 75056-1120 214/370-5363 (home) (a suburb of Dallas, TX) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 May 85 21:53 CDT From: Warren_Moseley To: SPACE@mit-mc.ARPA cc: MOSELEY%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: HELP REQUEST FOR SIMULATION COURSE I TEACH A GRADUATE COURSE IN SIMULATION IN THE COMPUTER SCIENCE DEPT AT NORTH TEXAS STATE IN DENTON TEXAS. I HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR SOME EXCITING PROJECTS TO GIVE TO GRADUATE STUDENTS IN THE AREA OF SIMULATION. I THINK IT WOULD BE EXCITING IF I COULD GIVE THEM A SPACE RELATED PROJECT. ANYBODY GOT ANY GOOD SUGGESTIONS. THIS NEEDS TO BE A SOFTWARE PROJECT, AND WE ARE LIMITED TO VAX 780, AND IBM 4300. ANY SUGGESTIONS FOR TOOLS, REFERENCES, TEXTS, AND EXAMPLES WOULD BE APPRECIATED. I AM INTENSLEY INTERESTED IN SPACE AND THE RELATED SUBJECTS AND WOULD LIKE TO GIVE MY GRADUATE STUDENTS A REALLY CHALLENGEING PROJECT. THIS IS DREAMING A LITTLE, BUT IF A REASONABLE SIZE PROJECT THAT COULD HELP IN OUR CURRENT SPACE EXPLORATION IS AVAILABLE I AM GAME TO TAKE THAT ON. SECOND QUESTION? CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHERE I COULD GET AN ACCURATE DESCRIPTION OF WHAT HAPPENED ON APOLLO 13. THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS THAT LEAD UP TO THE PROBLEM, WHAT HAPPENED, AND WHAT HAPPENED ON THE WAY HOME. I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN CURIOUS ABOUT THAT MISSION AND WOULD LIKE TO DO A LITTLE HISTORICAL READING. WARREN MOSELEY MOSELEY@TI-EG ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #158 ******************* 15-May-85 0350 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #159 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 159 Today's Topics: Re: questions about the theory of relativity Book and Author on Apollo 13 Flight Results of 'Speed Of Light' question Re: reentry of paper airplanes? Re: SPACE Digest V5 #158 Re: Swimming in space RE: questions about the theory of relativity ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 May 85 7:06:31 EDT From: Doug Gwyn (VLD/VMB) To: Patrick_Duff cc: Space@mit-mc.arpa, Physics@sri-unix.arpa, SF-Lovers@rutgers.arpa Subject: Re: questions about the theory of relativity > Is it theoretically possible to create a device which, after being > "locked" onto an object (e.g., the Earth), could always tell you your > velocity relative to that object (even after a period of near-light speed > travel, various maneuvers, etc.)? Not really, because it would have to know all about the structure of the region of space(-time) it was operated in. If you happen to know what the structure is (e.g., essentially flat in intergalactic space), then a close approximation could be done by keeping track of perceived accelerations. If the "other object" were another spaceship, it would be even harder, since the device would also have to know how the other object was moving. > I'm not talking about a computer which > would perform calculations based upon a history file of past accelerations, > but rather a "device" which reacts to the accelerations it experiences. What's the difference? > What about a "clock" which would always tell you the time & date on the > other object? Similar situation. Both cases assume that there is a meaning to where the distant object "really is" and what its time "really is"; in general there is no single answer to these questions. > In science fiction stories, the ease with which ships travel through time > without traveling through space has always bothered me. Gee, I find it easy to move through time without moving through space. Rip van Winkle found it even easier.. > Finally (for now anyway), I have heard it said that Einstein's theory of > relativity could be replaced by a quantum theory of gravity. Funny how the people who say this haven't been able to do so. > I'm unconvinced; > it seems to me that they concern fundamentally different aspects of the > universe. Yes, indeed. More relevantly, their conceptual foundations are quite dissimilar. General relativity (more precisely, generalized field theory) is best expressed as a theory about an objective reality. Quantum theory (QED, QCD) fundamentally denies this. Both theories are claimed to work; no single theory has yet been able to unify these two. Most recent such attempts start from the quantum approach; Einstein started from the field theory approach. There are some striking similarities in some of the resulting technical details (e.g., non-Abelian gauge groups for "internal" symmetries) but there are still considerable differences in the concepts. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 85 12:29:30 PDT From: Kit Weinrichter To: SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Book and Author on Apollo 13 Flight There is a book called "Thirteen The Flight That Failed" It is by S.F. Henry Cooper. The copywrite date is 1972 and it is by Dial Press. To: SPACE@MIT-MC ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-exodus!harrow From: harrow@exodus.DEC (Jeff Harrow NCSE TWO/E92 DTN=247-3134) Subject: Results of 'Speed Of Light' question Date: 13 May 85 14:18:52 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: DEC Engineering Network Well, when I posed the 'speed of light' question, I didn't know just what type of responses to expect... I'd like to say "Thanks" to all of you who responded to this layman's request. To provide just a bit of background, I've been a sci-fi. addict for 25 years, and have been familiar with the authors' perceived EFFECTS of time dilation, etc, but couldn't reconcile that with my Newtonian concepts of the perceived low-C world. The explanations which I received were, by and large, excellent, and since most were posted to this net, I won't bother to repeat them. I will say, however, that the ability to ask a question and receive personalized explanations from notable experts in the field represents one of the most fantastic educational opportunities which exist in the world today!! Anybody who questions the "worth" of the phone bills that support the net should give it a try! Jeff Work address: ARPAnet: HARROW%EXODUS.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Usenet: {allegra,Shasta,decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-exodus!harrow Easynet: EXODUS::HARROW Telephone: (617)858-3134 USPS: Digital Equipment Corp. Mail stop: TWO/E92 1925 Andover St. Tewksbury, MA 01876 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!utzoo!utcs!mnetor!fred From: mnetor!fred (Fred Williams) Subject: Re: reentry of paper airplanes? Date: 13 May 85 14:33:11 GMT Reply-To: fred@mnetor.UUCP (Fred Williams) Organization: Computer X (CANADA) Ltd., Toronto, Ontario, Canada In article <3000002@pbear.UUCP> peterb@pbear.UUCP writes: > >Dick, > >I'm sorry, I should have stated that when someone was on an EVA, take >the paper airplane and THROW it toward the ground and against the orbit. >I think (don't have a simulator handy) that this would cause the paper >airplane to leave orbit and start a reentry. As the density of the air >increases, the paper airplane would(should) stabilze itself and slow down >at a fast enough rate (since it's drag/weight is quite high) to prevent it >from burning up when it hits the heavier atmosphere. The only problem >I can see is how longit would take to reach a stabilized position. > >Peter Barada >ima!pbear!peterb >ihnp4!inmet!pbear!peterb From a practical standpoint, the astronaut would have to have an awefully good arm. Depending on the orbit, the paper plane would need a velocity of several thousand miles per hour with respect to the spacecraft. I can't see the plane being thrown faster than 20 or 30 mph. considering that the thrower would be in a space suit. Even if you postulate a mechanical throwing device, it would probably destroy a paper plane, ( I think certainly, but I won't go overboard). So what would have to be done is go into re-entry orbit and eject the paper plane by some means. NOW! *Just how do you intend to observe what happens?* Cheers, Fred Williams ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 85 18:48 EDT From: kyle.wbst@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #158 To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: kyle.wbst@Xerox.ARPA re:"can anyone tell me where i could get an accurate description of what happened on apollo 13.. -moseley@ti-eg.." See back issues of Aviation Week & Space Technology magazine for the most comprehensive writeup that should be available in most big libraries. If memory serves me well what happened is the following: One of the oxygen bottles in the service module (the part right behind the command module where the crew rides) exploded on the way to the moon and blew a big hole in the side of the craft. This disrupted the fuel cell power to the c/m so the fix was to climb into the attached lunar module and ride in it all the way around the moon and back to earth (thus aborting the lunar landing attempt). The L/M engines were used for mid course corrections as the gimballed service module engine and the GP/FPI (gimbal position fuel pressure indicator) display were out of commission in the command module. The ground had to radio up new info for the l/m guidance system to accomodate this unexpected configuration of it handling not only itself, but also the service module/command module stuff still attached to the whole rig. Upon approach back to earth, the crew climbed back into the command module and got rid of the l/m and the damaged s/m and used battery power to fire up the reaction control system on the c/m to orient it for proper re-entry which went well and commander Jim Lovell and crew lived. If the explosion had happened on the way back from a lunar landing, then they would have had no l/m attached to use as a "life boat" and they would have died. The oxygen bottle exploded because a new heater element used to boil off the gas from its liquid state and maintain pressure in the system was damaged during ground testing because the ground test documentation had not been updated and thus the new part was stressed. In space the stressed heater element (which was inside the gas bottle) broke down , sparked and the rest is history. Aviation Leak had very good pictures of the damage taken by the crew as they jettisoned the damaged service module prior to earth landing. The fact that they were able to survive this disaster is a tribute to the design philosophy of the Block II Apollo system which (unlike the earlier Block I design of ill-fated fire on the pad fame) allowed for virtual real-time system reconfiguration to meet certain contingencies. Earle Kyle. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw From: rtp47!throopw (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Swimming in space Date: 13 May 85 22:13:55 GMT Reply-To: throopw@vm.UUCP (PUT YOUR NAME HERE) Organization: Data General, RTP, NC In article <478@nmtvax.UUCP> maurice@nmtvax.UUCP (Roger M. Levasseur) writes: > >>I wonder if a change in the ship's velocity would affect the hapless astronaut >>who is hanging in mid-air. > > Yes, it would. It has been noticed that objects that are floating in >mid air will start to drift, or change directions when the control rockets >fire to keep the shuttle pointed the right way, or just change directions. >If it does happen to an object, it should be the same for an astronaut. > >Roger Levasseur Well, if you ignore air resistance and such, a change in ship's velocity would NOT affect the floating astronaut. Which of course means that as the vehicle accelerates, it bangs into the floating astronaut. In other words, it doesn't much matter whether an astronaut is inside the spacecraft or not, s/he stays put and the craft accelerates. The nice thing about being inside is that no matter which way the craft departs, a wall eventually collides with the occupant and takes him/her along. -- Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC !mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 85 19:58 CDT From: Patrick_Duff To: Space@mit-mc.ARPA cc: Physics@sri-unix.ARPA, SF-Lovers@rutgers.ARPA Subject: RE: questions about the theory of relativity By now, most readers should have had an opportunity to reach their own opinions concerning the questions I posed. Now that 24 hours has passed since I mailed my last message, let me throw in a few of my opinions. > Is it theoretically possible to create a device which, after being >"locked" onto an object (e.g., the Earth), could always tell you your >velocity relative to that object (even after a period of near-light speed >travel, various maneuvers, etc.)? I'm not talking about a computer which >would perform calculations based upon a history file of past accelerations, >but rather a "device" which reacts to the accelerations it experiences. >What about a "clock" which would always tell you the time & date on the >other object? What's missing here is the unspoken assumption that the object does not accellerate after it is "locked" onto (I suppose one could compensate for predictable accellerations, such as those due to the object's orbit (e.g., the Earth's orbit around Sol)). An alternative (though much less useful) is to have a device which would be "reset" (perhaps while on the ground before takeoff) and would then give the velocity or time & date at that point in space (which will soon be empty as the planet moves on) relative to you regardless of subsequent manuevers. My opinion is yes, they are theoretically possible. Practical complications abound however. For instance, you would have to consider the accelerations experienced while moving in a gravitational field (such as when passing near a black hole). In the case of the clock, since the rate at which it would register passing time would change over a wide range, a purely mechanical solution is difficult. In some situations it would need to move so slowly that vibration, friction and random molecular motions (heat) would become overriding influences. In other situations the various parts of the mechanism would need to move extremely rapidly. These problems could be solved if the device were able to automatically change scales (e.g., one revolution of an indicator used to mean one week passing on the object, but now it means one hour passing) whenever things started going too slowly (or too quickly). I don't know whether you could do these operations without keeping a history of past accellerations. What I'd prefer is a device which simply changes its current operation in direct response to an accelleration it is currently experiencing. >An early science fiction book (\Skylark/ by E. E. Doc Smith) had another >interesting device which was something like a compass; where-ever you were >in the universe, it would point at whatever you had "locked" it onto (the >farther away you were from the object, the longer it took the needle to >stop moving, or the more power you had to feed it, or something like that; >at one point the characters in the story measured this to find out not only >the direction, but also the approximate distance to the object). In \Skylark/ the power to the compass was turned on only when a reading was needed (at least, that's the way I remember it happening). It seems to me that you would need to power such a device continuously unless it used a history file. What I'm discussing in the above paragraphs are some of the instruments which would be needed on a ship capable of traveling at relativistic velocities. When such a ship needs to know where to aim its communication laser, what frequency or bit-rate to use, when to start sending it, the distance to another object, how to rendezvous with another ship, etc., the instruments which are used today on sea-going ships and orbital vehicles are completely inadequate. We know enough right now to write programs for all of the necessary calculations; can someone who has experience as a navigator, communicator, etc. suggest a list of what calculations would be needed to answer all of the questions which would arise in the operation of such a ship? > In science fiction stories, the ease with which ships travel through time >without traveling through space has always bothered me. If you could >exchange one of the three space axes for a time axis (such as inside the >event horizon of a black hole?), travel along it, and then rotate back, then >to move 1 second you would have to travel approximately 186,000 miles. Am >I missing something here? Also, what difference would it make whether you >traveled that distance at a slow speed (.001 c) or a fast speed (.999 c)? >Does such travel avoid any cause/effect paradoxes? After all, you would be >staying within the cause/effect light-cone, wouldn't you? Since travel along the time-axis while it is exchanged with one of the space axes is space-like and hence limited by the speed of light, this implies that the rate at which one can travel through time (at least, by this method) is also limited. The question about the velocity of travel along the time axis really opens up a can of worms. Relativistic effects are tied to gravitational phenomena; what would a gravitational field look like while travelling along a rotated time axis? It seems to me that any velocity-related effects would operate in a time-like manner on the space-like time-axis; in other words, some kind of "meta-time" (I don't know what it is, but it was fun to include it!). As for cause/effect paradoxes, upon reflection I now realize that when you exchange a time-axis with a space-axis, you will actually be operating outside the cause/effect light-cone, not inside it as I had originally imagined. regards, Patrick Patrick S. Duff, ***CR 5621*** pduff.ti-eg@csnet-relay 5049 Walker Dr. #91103 214/480-1659 (work) The Colony, TX 75056-1120 214/370-5363 (home) (a suburb of Dallas, TX) ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #159 ******************* 16-May-85 0350 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #160 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 160 Today's Topics: Re: reentry of paper airplanes? Re: reentry of paper airplanes? Swimming, the speed of light, and gravity-assist maneuvers Re: reentry of paper airplanes? Re: Speed of Light Re: Gravity slingshots Re: Gravity slingshots Re: Budget cuts (really asinine political generalizations) Re: Truax, Evil Knevil Re: Speed of Light ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!pbear!peterb From: pbear!peterb Subject: Re: reentry of paper airplanes? Date: 13 May 85 15:43:00 GMT Ross, Remember the mass of the orbiter also. the mildest burst would barely change the velocity vector of the orbiter. On the other hand a peper airplane's weight is measured in grams, and it would be quite easy to impart a velocity of tens of meters per second to a paper airplane by using a slingshot. even throwing one by a good pitcher would imaprt about 20 m/s to the airplane. Peter Barada {ihnp4!inmet | harvard!ima}!pbear!peterb ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!pbear!peterb From: pbear!peterb Subject: Re: reentry of paper airplanes? Date: 14 May 85 18:46:00 GMT Fred, If you want to observe it, make it out of steel and use ground radar. As for needing thousands of MPH difference to inject it into reentry, look at skylab. It came down on drag alone. I am not implying a shuttle rentry orbit, just a reentry. A meter per second against the orbit would cause the airplane to drop into a lower orbit. If you applied about 10G using a slingshot, I think you could easily acheive reentry insertion, but the reentry would take quite a number of orbits until drag from the atmosphere would pull it in for good. Anybody out there have the equations handy (I don't have my physics book at work) I would like to run up a simulation of this. Mail it and comments to me Peter Barada {ihnp4!inmet | harvard!ima}!pbear!peterb ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-pen!kallis From: kallis@pen.DEC Subject: Swimming, the speed of light, and gravity-assist maneuvers Date: 14 May 85 13:24:16 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: DEC Engineering Network three things have occupied this netfile for the past few days: 1) trying to explain a seeming (Newtonian) paradox concerning two space- craft approaching each other at near-luminal speeds, 2) getting "unstuck" from the middle of a spacecraft/space station in 0 g, and 3) explaining the "slingshot effect." Throwing in my $0.02 worth --- 1) Tachyon theory indicates that things either can go slower than or faster than c, but never achieve c. If this is correct (and there is no theoretical reason it might not be), it leads to all sorts of interesting speculation as how on may nbe able to transfer from one state to the other; relatively meaningless now, but perhaps of interest to our grandchildren. 2) On getting "unstuck": one first has to get stuck. It would be fairly difficult for anyone in a low-Earth orbit to _get_ stuck. Even if such a person were boundand gagged and put in still air in the midst of a spacecraft chamber, the gravity gradient between the far side and the near side of the spacecraft/station would eventually result in a reposi- tioning of the victim (unless you managed to place him or her _exactly_ at the center of mass -- and then, it would be his or her centers of mass that would have to be at that point). Of course, any slight maneuver of the spacecraft also would remove the difficulty. 3) As explained in some of the previous communications, there is a transfer of energy from the planet to the spacecraft using the slingshot effect. This slows the planet down minutely -- There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch, as has been said. From a practical standpoint, the planet is affected minimally, therefore, the presumed "free ride" for the probe. It's very important to understand the elements of energy transform- ation and transfer, or it's easy to fall into traps. A book of the late 1940s, _Rockets and Jets_ by Herbert Zim, once tried to explain orbital decay by strength-of-gravitational-field at different gradient points (in a **far** more popular way than the foregoing) without factoring in atmospheric drag. To a layman, this would imply that things lose momentum in high-gravity environments: I don't know if the author was careless or confused. Steve Kallis, Jr. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!sabre!zeta!epsilon!gamma!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!phoenix!brent From: phoenix!brent (Brent P. Callaghan) Subject: Re: reentry of paper airplanes? Date: 13 May 85 18:58:02 GMT Organization: AT&T Information Systems, Lincroft NJ I can imagine a couple of problems with paper airplane reentry via an EVA hand launch: 1) Surely an encumbered astronaut couldn't impart nearly enough delta V to the airplane to cause it to reenter. Wouldn't it just fall into an orbit a few hundred feet lower ? Perhaps a rubber slingshot would be more effective. 2) Observing yon reentering paper airplane would be next to impossible. An embedded thin wire along the keel could be used as a dipole transponder perhaps, but measuring its attitude etc would be out of the question. We're really not up to avionics for paper airplanes yet. I have a great idea for a skydiver/stuntman: do an EVA in all the NASA garb. Use the mobility unit to provide deorbit delta V then discard. At entry interface, before the heat becomes too much for the suit, deploy a drogue chute and make a prolonged, low temperature reentry. It may take a full orbit to keep temps within limits. Skydive down to a few thousand feet and deploy a ram air parachute. Pretty good stunt huh ???? -- Made in New Zealand --> Brent Callaghan AT&T Information Systems, Lincroft, NJ {ihnp4|mtuxo|pegasus}!phoenix!brent (201) 576-3475 ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 85 23:00:31 EDT From: Charles.Fineman@CMU-CS-SPICE Subject: Re: Speed of Light To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A Slocum@HI-MULTICS metioned the Asimov books. They are called Understanding Physics (Bantam?) and I found them very infomative on a wide range of topics including a chapter devoted to the development of the relatavistic theory. ~Charlie Fineman (ARPA: Fineman@cmu-cs-spice) ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!phoenix!brent From: phoenix!brent (Brent P. Callaghan) Subject: Re: Gravity slingshots Date: 14 May 85 13:10:13 GMT Organization: AT&T Information Systems, Lincroft NJ Jupiter must be a very attractive gravity well to NASA mission planners. I remember a couple of years ago a NASA/ESA combined mission using two identical spacecraft was planned and subsequently canned. The spacecraft were to investigate to solar magnetosphere from above and below the north and south poles of the sun ( out of the plane of the solar system). So where did they plan to launch the spacecraft ? ... out to Jupiter !! Each spacecraft was to get a combined plane change and slingshot in opposite directions back to Sol. I hope they made arrangements for mutual overtaking on the back side of Jupiter. :-) -- Made in New Zealand --> Brent Callaghan AT&T Information Systems, Lincroft, NJ {ihnp4|mtuxo|pegasus}!phoenix!brent (201) 576-3475 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!houxm!hound!pearse From: hound!pearse (S.PEARSE) Subject: Re: Gravity slingshots Date: 14 May 85 14:55:33 GMT Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Holmdel NJ I have read a lot of sci-fi books which use the principle of "Gravity Slingshots". Could someone explain from a net-energy point of view how this works? I know you don't get something for nothing. When a satellite approaches Jupiter, it gains energy from the approach, but as it departs, it loses just as much. Where is the net gain in velocity=energy? Is it from Jupiter's orbital velocity? Thanks, -- Steve Pearse ihnp4!hound!pearse ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!alice!td From: alice!td (Tom Duff) Subject: Re: Budget cuts (really asinine political generalizations) Date: 15 May 85 04:23:23 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill > Path: ..!cbdkc1!tjs ( Tom Stanions @ AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus) > Military is the only real (consitutional) reason for a > government. So you believe that if someone accuses you of raping his daughter the government shouldn't get involved, since it's not a military matter, only libel (or rape, were the accusation true). I think you should carefully consider any unqualified generalizations that you make, especially in a public forum. I also think you should keep your ill-considered militaristic war-monger's opinions in net.politics and out of nice, clean (albeit sometimes misguided) newsgroups like net.space. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!reed!swift From: reed!swift (Theodore Swift) Subject: Re: Truax, Evil Knevil Date: 15 May 85 08:17:53 GMT Reply-To: swift@reed.UUCP (ted swift) Organization: Reed College, Portland, Oregon Summary: Snake not equal to Grand >It is also true that he designed the rocket bike the Evil Knevil used in his >attempt to jump the grand canyon. The attempt failed and Evil parachuted >into the canyon. I believe it was the Snake River Canyon in Idaho/Oregon that Knevil tried to jump. The Grand Canyon is a messload bigger in all three dimensions. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!reed!swift From: reed!swift (Theodore Swift) Subject: Re: Speed of Light Date: 15 May 85 08:49:19 GMT Reply-To: swift@reed.UUCP (PUT YOUR NAME HERE) Organization: Reed College, Portland, Oregon In article <52@uw-june> dtuttle@uw-june (David C. Tuttle) writes: >So, any ship approaching 1.0c can still be passed by light at 1.0c, thus >the ship can never bridge that gap and travel at lightspeed... > >True physicists are now free to punch holes in this layman's arguments. Rather than punch holes in it, maybe we can do some tailoring to a suit with potential, but doesn't quite fit yet. The reason anything with mass can't go the speed of light (e.g., spaceships) has to do with the not-to-easy-to-grasp idea that as your velocity approaches v=c, your _relativistic_ mass increases according to Mmotion=Mrest/sqrt(1-(v*v)/(c*c)). The mess in the denominator is called the "gamma function" (dunno why). If you consider the case where v is approaching c (from below!! we don't wanna mess with the case v>c,though one of the seniors did his thesis on just that idea) you should be able to convince yourself that the sqrt(1-(v*v)/(c*c)) term goes to zero, so the relativistic mass, Mmotion, goes to infinity. To get something going fast (or faster), you need to accelerate it. You apply a force to the mass to accelerate it. (Newton said it best: F=ma). Now, near c, your relativistic mass gets to be huge, so the amount of force necessary to get you going any faster (closer to c) also gets huge. You just can't carry enough fuel to generate "huge enough" forces. The gamma function also works on time. This is the basic idea behind the "twin paradox" (available in any good intro physics text) where the twin in a spaceship going at some relativistic speed ages "slower" than his sibling on the ground (or at rest- he can be suffocating in space for all we care, as long as his Timex keeps on ticking). The neet idea this brings up is that interstellar colonists won't have to go through *as many* generations before planetfall because, if they get truckin', they will age "slower" relative to the Infinite Cosmos (sorry, Carl...). One problem: you gotta slow down, to, unless you just want to leave E. coli on your target planet. Enough mister science for now. I'm going to sleep. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #160 ******************* 17-May-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #161 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 161 Today's Topics: SFMSS Nuclear Rockets Re: reentry of paper airplanes? Re: Budget cuts (really asinine political generalizations) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 May 85 13:30:39 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: SFMSS To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A The following is a preliminary copy of the letter that has (by now) gone to the members of the Senate Science, Technology and Space Subcommittee. I have posted this just so everyone who was kind enough to support us knows exactly how we are using your names. Again, thank you. I will be sure to let you all know how effective this effort has been. =========================================================================== FROM SCIENTISTS FOR A MANNED SPACE STATION TO SENATE SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY, AND SPACE SUBCOMMITTEE MAY 7, 1985 SENATOR S,T, & SP US SN WASH DEAR SIR: We are writing to you as scientists who have been working in the field of science for many years. It is our judgement that NASA's Manned Space Station will be of great scientific value. We want to indicate our strong support for this project on its scientific merits. We urge your support of NASA's request of $230 Million for the space station in FY 1986. The space station will provide a vital working environment for the evolution of space science. In recent testimony before the HUD-Independant Agencies Subcommittee of the Senate Committee on Appropriations, Dr. Gordon A. Smith, Vice-President of Public Policy for the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics stated, "We believe that every dollar spent now in the conceptual phase [of the space station] has the potential leverage to reduce costs when it comes to full-scale development" (May 2, 1985). The NASA FY 1986 budget request represents a committment to maintainance of vital research and development programs. The critical research base provided by NASA would be furthur eroded by any cutbacks in the FY 1986 NASA budget request. Therefore, we urge your support of a vigorous space program by voting for full funding for NASA and for $230 Million for the Space Station. Sincerely, Signed by: ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 85 16:15:46 EDT From: John H. Heimann Subject: Nuclear Rockets To: space@mit-mc.arpa Rather than going down to the local library and reading through old NASA annual reports, I'm going to cop out and submit this question to the net. Back in the 'sixties, there were a number of programs (funded, I think, by NASA and what was then AEC) to develop nuclear powered space propulsion schemes. The ones I recall are project Orion, which involved the detonation of tiny fission explosives behind a so-called bumper plate which was connected to the rear of a spacecraft. The explosion byproducts would impart momentum to the plate, and thence to the craft. The other program was intended to develop a more traditional rocket motor, in which hydrogen gas was heated in a fission reactor and allowed to expand through a nozzle. Neither program culminated in the flight test of an engine, although the hydrogen/reactor rocket was ground tested (Project Kiwi, as I recall). In theory at least, a nuclear rocket should be more efficient than a chemical rocket, since the exhaust gasses can be made much hotter. I may be mistaken, but I think the lower molecular weight of the exhaust gas of a nuclear rocket (atomic H) compared with that of, say, a hydrocarbon-LOX chemical rocket (H2O and CO2) gives nuclear rockets a further advantage in thrust. My question is, why were these projects cancelled? I can imagine that project Orion would violate the Limited Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, which prohibits atmospheric or outer-space testing of nuclear weapons. The main reason I can think of for cancelling the hydrogen/reactor engine is concern about radioactive exhaust or, if the rocket should crash, radioactive waste. Neither of these concerns would be legitimate if the engine were used well outside the earth's atmosphere. There is of course the problem of getting a fission reactor safely into orbit. A few tons of plutionium oxide, molten from reentry, would not be the nicest thing to have falling into one's backyard. John ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 85 10:21:27 pdt From: David Smith To: space%mc@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: Re: reentry of paper airplanes? Source-Info: From (or Sender) name not authenticated. Deorbit delta-V is not very great for low earth orbit. The shuttle takes off and gets into an orbit that would reenter over the Indian ocean. Then it drops its tank and fires the OMS engines to put it into a stable orbit. This OMS burn is worth about 300 feet per second, or 200 mph. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 85 18:24:37 pdt From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) To: alice!td@Berkeley Subject: Re: Budget cuts (really asinine political generalizations) Cc: space@mit-mc.ARPA Keep it clean, folks. Name-calling on a public bboard (commie, fascist, pinko, militaristic war-monger) significantly lowers the signal-to-noise ration on the arpanet. If you want to tick somebody off, please do it privately. Thanks. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #161 ******************* 18-May-85 0351 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #162 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 162 Today's Topics: Nuclear Rockets Re: Speed Of Light Re: reentry of paper airplanes? Nuclear Rockets Quality of NASA space-to-ground links Re: Quality of NASA space-to-ground links Re: Gravity slingshots Re: Speed of Light and beyond Re: Swimming in air, etc Re: swimming in space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 May 1985 12:57:21 EDT From: METH@USC-ISI.ARPA Subject: Nuclear Rockets To: SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: METH@USC-ISI.ARPA You hit the reasons right on the nose. Several space nuclear propulsion programs (NERVA, KIWI, RBR) were cancelled because of the fear (political rather than technical, I suspect) of transporting large amounts of nuclear material into space. There is a revitalized interest in space nuclear power, if not propulsion. The SP-100 program, initially funded by DARPA, NASA, and DOE was looking at such concepts (as well as non-nuclear ones) for 100kW(e). I believe that has transitioned to SDIO. SDI/SLKT (Survivability, Lethality, and Key Technologies) and SDI/IST (Innovative Science and Technology) offices are interested in such power sources. DOE is sponsoring a New and Innovative Concepts program (PRDA DE-RA03-85SF15622) which also includes new space power (including nuclear) concepts. Many of the new space nuclear power concepts could be used for propulsion. -Sheldon Meth ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!faust!schrei From: faust!schrei Subject: Re: Speed Of Light Date: 14 May 85 15:36:00 GMT Jeff, You ask good questions. What you are struggling with is the fundamental observable paradox that led Albert Einstein to the Theory of Relativity. The speed of light (or any electromagnetic wave) *in a vacuum* is never relative. It is always absolute -- a constant -- and is independent of the motion of the observer. Now wavelength, i.e. color in the case of light, is something else. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!bellcore!sabre!zeta!epsilon!gamma!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!eder From: ssc-vax!eder (Dani Eder) Subject: Re: reentry of paper airplanes? Date: 15 May 85 18:10:38 GMT Organization: Boeing Aerospace Co., Seattle, WA > > > >I'm sorry, I should have stated that when someone was on an EVA, take > >the paper airplane and THROW it toward the ground and against the orbit. > >Peter Barada > From a practical standpoint, the astronaut would have to have an > awefully good arm. Depending on the orbit, the paper plane would > need a velocity of several thousand miles per hour with respect > to the spacecraft. I can't see the plane being thrown faster than > 20 or 30 mph. considering that the thrower would be in a space suit. > Even if you postulate a mechanical throwing device, it would probably > destroy a paper plane, ( I think certainly, but I won't go overboard). Let us assume the Orbiter is at 150 Mautical Miles. Your astronaut throws the airplane at 20 mph or 10 meters/second aft. Aft is defined as opposite your orbital motion. The airplane will now have a perigee of 140 Nautical Miles and an apogee of 150 Nautical Miles. A piece of 20-lb bond 8.5x11 inches weighs .01 lb. When folded into a paper airplane and flying stably it has a cross section of 0.5 inches square. This gives it a ballistic coefficient (weight/area) of 3 lbs/ft^2. It will decay from orbit in about 40 days. If the paper airplane has a blunt nose (0.1 foot radius), then the peak heating on re-entry will be 70 BTU/ft^2/sec (795 kW/m^2). This means the peak temperature, assuming the paper is black, will be 1900 Kelvin (2973 F). Dani Eder / ssc-vax!eder / Boeing Company ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 1985 21:05:31 EDT From: DOLANTP@USC-ISI.ARPA Subject: Nuclear Rockets To: SPACE-ENTHUSIASTS@MIT-MC.ARPA The United States began research into using nuclear power for rocket propulsion back in the late 1950s. Back then, it seemed that the power which could be generated using nuclear means was a lot more promising than chemical rockets. Project Orion went through several design stages, one of the more interest- ing of which called for a 300-foot-tall vehicle with a combustion containment chamber made of 1/2-inch steel. This chamber was supposed to be 150 feet in diameter, and small (0.1 kiloton) nuclear devices would be exploded in the center of the chamber. Thrust would be generated via water injection into the chamber, and subsequent vaporization. The Project Kiwi engines reportedly could have powered a vehicle into low earth orbit, and showed some promise. However, if you remember the years (early 1960s) of these experiments, we had a sudden push to get a man on the Moon in a hurry. The nuclear rocket research was not progressing fast enough, so funds were redirected to more conventional means of propulsion. Another attempt at nuclear propulsion sources was the Air Force attempt to make a nuclear airplane. General Electric actually did make a prototype reactor which drove two turbine engines, and in the early 1960s USAF predicted that their first nuclear airplane would fly by 1965. It didn't. Most of the action was generated by a fear that we had to get these devices flying before the Soviets did. When it became obvious that neither side was making progress, the urgency subsided. This research could probably make the basis of an interesting book, if any- one cared to write it. Tom Dolan Naval Postgraduate School Monterey, CA ------- ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!petrus!karn From: petrus!karn Subject: Quality of NASA space-to-ground links Date: 17 May 85 03:54:26 GMT Organization: Bell Communications Research, Inc This is a question that's bugged me for some time. Those of us who are space junkies have gotten used to listening to space-to-ground audio links that are, shall we say, somewhat less than "telephone quality". While the overall intelligibility has gotten better over the years, it is still worse than I would expect. In the case of the space shuttle, which uses digital transmission (delta mod) for its primary (non-UHF) audio links, I had assumed that the noise you hear when an astronaut opens his mike must be due to things like ventilating fans on board (after all, air doesn't move by convection without gravity). However, when Owen Garriott made his famous DX-pedition, using the same headset connected to a 2m FM handie-talkie, his audio quality was absolutely clear -- virtually no transmitted noise or distortion. If I hadn't already been familiar with his voice from things like interviews and press conferences, I would have suspected a hoax. So where does all the noise come from in the NASA chain? Do the orbiter avionics use large amounts of speech compression or clipping, or what? Should we hams offer to replace all of their communications gear? Phil ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!brl-tgr!wmartin From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: Re: Quality of NASA space-to-ground links Date: 17 May 85 21:28:41 GMT Reply-To: wmartin@brl-bmd.UUCP Organization: USAMC ALMSA Summary: Radio equipment in spacecraft A good question, and an opening for a topic I had been meaning to post for some time now, and always forgot to... What has the radio equipment available to the astronauts been, over the history of the manned-spaceflight program, and especially now, in the Shuttle? As a longtime DXer, I have always wondered what it would be like to have radios in orbit, and be able to tune around and see what I get. Can the astronauts do this? I would expect that you'd get some shortwave and medium wave signals -- the portion that punched through the ionosphere and wasn't reflected, and that part radiated straight up, which doesn't get reflected, as you pass over those antennae. Higher frequencies would go right through the ionosphere, of course, but I'd expect to get a mixture of everything on the hemisphere transmitting on that particular frequency (with the closer transmitters dominating, so it would constantly change as the receiver orbits). So, do the astronauts now have general-coverage receivers that they can tune, or is all the radio gear fixed-frequency and dedicated to the mission? What about video reception? Do they have PAL and SECAM and NTSC equipment to look at TV signals from all over the world as they orbit? I like to think of getting a mix of every US station on channel 5 at the same time... surrealistic TV DX! The latest episode of the PBS "Spaceflight" series mentioned how deadly bored the Gemini astronauts were during scheduled sleeptimes (when they weren't sleepy) and during the last part of long-endurance missions. I DX at times like those -- did they have the chance to? What about antennae? Spacecraft being metal cans, it probably is necessary to get some sort of antennae outside the craft and the signal fed through. Are there spare or unused antennae that can be used for recreational radio reception? What about HF -- are there reeled-out longwire antennae on the Shuttle for HF, or is that portion of the spectrum ignored? (Could you receive LF or VLF from orbit, or are those all ground-hugging signals?) Any NASA types out there who have info on the the radio-related aspects of the space program, please post info on this! Inquiring minds want to know! Regards, Will Martin USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin or ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!utzoo!henry From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Gravity slingshots Date: 16 May 85 17:00:04 GMT Organization: U of Toronto Zoology > Jupiter must be a very attractive gravity well to NASA mission > planners. I remember a couple of years ago a NASA/ESA combined > mission using two identical spacecraft was planned and > subsequently canned. No, only NASA's half of it was canned, unilaterally and to the great displeasure of the Europeans, who had thought that a US promise meant something. The European probe, now named Ulysses (used to be International Solar Polar Mission) is going ahead. The US is supplying the launch free as a consolation prize. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!utzoo!henry From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Speed of Light and beyond Date: 16 May 85 17:05:01 GMT Organization: U of Toronto Zoology > I know this is impossible, but what would happen if... > > A ship could exceed the speed of light? When the space shuttle crosses the > sound barrier, there is a sonic boom. If it were possible to cross the > "light barrier", what phenomenon would result? A lot of heart attacks in the physics community, for one. :-) More seriously, as I recall it, the basic answer to this from relativity (if we ignore tachyons, which are a messy case) is "does not compute". Faster-than-light speeds involve logical contradictions (notably, loss of the normal cause-and-effect relationship) according to special relativity. This being the case, the theory basically cannot give coherent predictions about such a situation. I'd be very interested to hear this contradicted by somebody who knows more about the subject... -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!utzoo!watmath!watnot!watdcsu!herbie From: watdcsu!herbie (Herb Chong [DCS]) Subject: Re: Swimming in air, etc Date: 16 May 85 14:42:51 GMT Reply-To: herbie@watdcsu.UUCP (Herb Chong [DCS]) Organization: U of Waterloo In article <1783@mordor.UUCP> JOSH@RUTGERS.ARPA writes: >Thus I would expect that a unit with fold-up prop, rare-earth motor, >and nicads could be built to last a normal day's use without recharging >and be a conveniently clip-on-belt sized item. wouldn't it be easier for all concerned if they had a small air compressor aboard to refill small compressed air cans which are then kept on a handy belt or in a pocket? Herb Chong... I'm user-friendly -- I don't byte, I nybble.... ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!reed!swift From: reed!swift (Theodore Swift) Subject: Re: swimming in space Date: 17 May 85 02:07:04 GMT Reply-To: swift@reed.UUCP (ted swift) Organization: Reed College, Portland, Oregon Keywords: butterflies... Summary: there are bulk/surface area problems > I belive that the rocket-propulsion schemes (throwing a ball, >blowing a balloon) are all much much less efficient than something >that involves taking advantage of pushing off of the air itself. >(i.e., heavier than air flight with wings and propellors can be done >with a lot less power than a plain reaction rocket-engine) > The suggestion of swim fins seems like about the best idea. In considering "efficiency" you might consider that swim fins push against water, and your proposed "air fins" work against air (at a reduced pressure of something like 10 psi to boot, if what I've heard is correct). I believe air is something like 1/20 as dense as air (at 14.7psi), so to get the "same effect" you'd need fins 20 times bigger, i.e., big mongo butterfly wings! This might be OK in Heinlein's big flying chamber on the moon (see, I believe, _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_) but it's downright lethal in a space station. If you brush the wrong switch with your multicolored wings (made by Hobie, no doubt :-)) you're liable to do something irreversibly bad. (see Niven's stories about Belters- people who live in small ships in the Asteroid belt.) The idea of a balloon is good, as long as you take care where and how you inhale. I'd suggest inhaling through both sides of your mouth, then exhaling into the balloon. Better yet, don't get into the situation of being stuck out there in the first place. It would be hard to do, anyway since you'd have to leave your last wall with SOME velocity. If the ship fired it's rockets while one was floating in "midair", of course the ship would accelerate "at you" at whatever rate the engines were giving it. This could hurt. A lot. Most of these questions can be answered by taking a good squint at Sir Isaac's three laws. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #162 ******************* 19-May-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #163 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 163 Today's Topics: Cancelled nuclear rockets NERVA more NERVA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: crash!david@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Sat, 18 May 85 12:19:53 PDT To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC Subject: Cancelled nuclear rockets I believe the project you are referring to is project NERVA (Nuclear Engine for Rocket Vehicle Application). It was going to be the rocket en- gine that would take us to Mars. There were many reasons why it was dropped. First and foremost was cost. Hundreds of millions had been spent on research of the project (funded by NASA and AEC) and they hadn't even begun development. Vietnam helped to drop the program. Secondly, it wasn't really necessary to send men to Mars, and that was essentially what the program was about. The Mariner and Viking probes were advanced enough to give almost any data needed. And besides, it didn't look like the Russians were going to send people to Mars, so there was no rush... Another reason was the difficulty of getting such a massive rocket out of the atmosphere (the craft was to hold six people, and the trip would take two years, so supplies would be numerous...). The researchers decided it'd be better to wait until we got a space station up where the rocket could be assembled and launched. The project was also to depend on the use of the shuttle to transport supplies, people, etc. We know what happened to the shuttle... And lastly, an even better engine had been envisioned. A nuclear-elec- tric drive engine could be much smaller: it wouldn't require as much propellant as the nuclear engine running off liquid hydrogen. Yes, there were tests of nuclear-related engines or reactors (15, to be exact). One of them (the NRX-A6) ran an hour at 1100MW (which was full power). Just a little bit of trivia - if the project hadn't been cancelled, we'd have reached Mars in 1982. Tough luck, huh? -David Thacher {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!david crash!david@ucsd.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 85 16:53:59 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: NERVA To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A The NERVA rocket engine project was halted within ~$1B of man rating. The reason for the halt in funding was quite simple. NASA wanted to go for a manned mission to Mars, and NERVA was the engine to do it with. Proxmire and Mondale realized that an engine of this caliber would eventually lead to a reemergence of the Mars program, since the existance of a capability almost demands that it be used. So they made DAMN sure NERVA was killed. It probably didn't help that Spiro Agnew was strongly supporting a Mars mission. As to resurrecting the project, it would probably have to be done pretty much from scratch. Dreamers among us imagine the documents on things like this neatly stored in some archive, ready for disenterment. T'aint so. The info at Jackass Flats was destroyed (dumped from drawers and burned according to a friend of mine) by the last crew out when the contract was cancelled. I suspect most of the rest has been cleaned out of the archives of the contractors years ago. Most companies just don't store records for 15 years on dead projects. They also don't store them on products because of a court ruling that can hold them liable for products if they still have the information on them. Since they are only required to keep the info for about 5 (?) years, design info tends to vanish if it is beyond that age, except where there are special laws applicable. I'll bet that all of the NERVA contract and test documents still exist though. Who needs @i(blueprints) if you have CYA documents? Says something about our system of values, doesn't it? (PS: When I was a teen my sister's husband was working on NERVA out at the Flats. He was with Westinghouse Astronuclear out of Large, PA) ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 85 16:59:39 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: more NERVA To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A I forgot to mention. NERVA, as ground tested, had around 800 sec specific impulse. The SSME only have 450 sec. And this was not a LOW thrust engine like a SEPS. This was a real kick-in-the-buns interplanetary rocket engine. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #163 ******************* 20-May-85 0350 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #164 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 164 Today's Topics: The Sky is Falling Re: Getting UNSTUCK in the middle of space Re: Speed of Light and beyond Re: Speed of Light and beyond Re: Re: Swimming in space Re: Speed of Light and beyond Re: SPACE Digest V5 #158 Re: reentry of paper airplanes? Re: Speed of Light and beyond ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!mhuxt!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: The Sky is Falling Date: 17 May 85 17:21:07 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill Discovery was struck again, yesterday, by falling debris, but no damage occurred and no one was hurt. A 200 pound metal beam was jarred loose by a crane and fell into the cargo bay. NASA says that it will no affect the planned 14 June launch. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!gymble!lll-crg!dual!qantel!vlsvax1!zehntel!tektronix!reed!swift From: reed!swift (Theodore Swift) Subject: Re: Getting UNSTUCK in the middle of space Date: 17 May 85 02:33:05 GMT Reply-To: swift@reed.UUCP (ted swift) Organization: Reed College, Portland, Oregon Summary: buoyancy in air for a human? Keywords:buoyancy, flatulance > I can't understand why swimming motions wouldn't work (and didn't, >according to recent postings). After all, motion in a fluid (air) should be >much the same as motion in another fluid (water), and I assure you that it's >possible for buoyant force to just match the gravitational force on a scuba >diver. Comments from anyone? > > Rick. Yeah, but I believe humans have a density close to that of water, not air (unless you consider the bean-fed solutions posted :-) ). I suppose you could have people strapped to big dirigibles, but, again, you have space problems (no pun intended...). Buoyant forces are at least partially dependant on the local force of gravity, so to get much buoyancy out of things, you'd need both a big dirigible and a reasonable gravitational field, as well as some atmosphere. Another problem someone else in the Terminal Ward here pointed out is though both air and water are fluids, air is easily compressible, so you will not be able to just "scale up" the effects of water motions to air. The best idea I've seen so far is forcibly throwing some mass away, like a shoe, thrown underhand, probably. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!larryk From: tektronix!larryk (Larry Kohn) Subject: Re: Speed of Light and beyond Date: 17 May 85 21:13:58 GMT Reply-To: larryk@tektronix.UUCP (Larry Kohn) Organization: Tektronix, Beaverton OR In article <1776@mordor.UUCP> @S1-A.ARPA,@MIT-MC:TENCATI@JPL-VLSI.ARPA writes: > > If it were possible to cross the >"light barrier", what phenomenon would result? An image, resembling a subliminal flash, produced when an improbability wave formed by a spacecraft travelling at superlight speed traverses another dimension. Call it an Optic Flooey. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!hou2e!gv From: hou2e!gv (A.VANNUCCI) Subject: Re: Speed of Light and beyond Date: 17 May 85 17:33:26 GMT Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Holmdel NJ > I know this is impossible, but what would happen if... > > A ship could exceed the speed of light? When the space shuttle crosses the > sound barrier, there is a sonic boom. If it were possible to cross the > "light barrier", what phenomenon would result? > > Ron Tencati > JPL-VLSI It *is* possible. A particle can move through a medium faster than the speed of light in that medium. It emits Cherenkov radiation, which is the electromagnetic wave analog of a sonic boom. This phenomenon is commonly used by particle physicist to detect the presence of particles. Giovanni Vannucci AT&T Bell Laboratories HOH R-207 Holmdel, NJ 07733 hou2e!gv ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ihnp4!aicchi!dbb From: aicchi!dbb (Burch) Subject: Re: Re: Swimming in space Date: 17 May 85 01:04:29 GMT Organization: Analysts International Corp; Chicago Branch > > Yes, it would. It has been noticed that objects that are floating in > > mid air will start to drift, or change directions when the control rockets > > fire to keep the shuttle pointed the right way, or just change directions. > > If it does happen to an object, it should be the same for an astronaut. > > Of course, what's REALLY happening is that the objects remain stationary > in their inertial reference frame, while the ship accelerates "around" them. > > I recall seeing a brief but amusing clip from one of the shuttle missions. > Whenever one of the astronauts would release a roll of duct tape, it would > slowly accelerate towards the right and bounce off the wall. If the astronaut > let go of the handle he was holding, he'd also drift to the right and > hit the wall. Obviously, an orbit maneuver was going on, but the orbiter > is so massive that the acceleration given by the OMS is pretty small > (1/2 m/sec/sec, depending on fuel and cargo load, seems about right from > memory). > > Phil Well... What really would happen (assuming no orbital maneuver and the air blowers are all off) is that the astronaut will reach a wall! This is because of the fact that the astronaut and the spacecraft are unlikely to share a centre of gravity, and therefore are in different orbits around the earth. Quite likely there are tidal and other effects which would cause the standed fellow to reach a wall eventually... -Ben Burch, AIC ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ho95b!ran From: ho95b!ran (RANeinast) Subject: Re: Speed of Light and beyond Date: 17 May 85 19:18:51 GMT Organization: AT&T-Bell Labs, Holmdel, NJ >> I know this is impossible, but what would happen if... >> >> A ship could exceed the speed of light? When the space shuttle crosses the >> sound barrier, there is a sonic boom. If it were possible to cross the >> "light barrier", what phenomenon would result? > >A lot of heart attacks in the physics community, for one. :-) >More seriously, as I recall it, the basic answer to this from relativity >(if we ignore tachyons, which are a messy case) is "does not compute". >Faster-than-light speeds involve logical contradictions (notably, loss of >the normal cause-and-effect relationship) according to special relativity. >This being the case, the theory basically cannot give coherent predictions >about such a situation. > >I'd be very interested to hear this contradicted by somebody who knows >more about the subject... It's known as Cerenkov radiation. It turns out that the speed of light depends upon the medium through which it travels (the speed in vacuo is the ultimate limit), so you can have particles going very near the speed of light in a vacuum enter water (where the speed of light is much slower) and create a "sonic boom", except, of course, it is light that is emitted. This slows the particle rather quickly. Regarding tachyons, the idea first came up about 15 years ago when it was noticed that the relativity equations had no problems with faster- than-light if an object ALWAYS went faster then light, so tachyons were proposed. Despite possible mechanisms for how a tachyon might be observed, there is at present NO experimental evidence for their existence. Quantum field theory also has a few problems if tachyons exist, since the mass (imaginary for tachyons) of the particle defines an integration path in complex space for the calculation of certain measureable quantities. I realize the last sentence is not real clear, but I'm afraid I can't explain it much better. -- ". . . and shun the frumious Bandersnatch." Robert Neinast (ihnp4!ho95b!ran) AT&T-Bell Labs ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!decvax!bellcore!sabre!zeta!epsilon!gamma!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!ihnp4!cbosgd!clyde!watmath!utzoo!henry From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #158 Date: 17 May 85 17:23:32 GMT Organization: U of Toronto Zoology > The fact that they were able to survive this disaster is a tribute to > the design philosophy of the Block II Apollo system which (unlike the > earlier Block I design of ill-fated fire on the pad fame) allowed for > virtual real-time system reconfiguration to meet certain contingencies. It's also a tribute to the paranoia of some of the early planners, who put their feet down hard and *insisted* that the LM and CM had to use identical computers. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!prls!amdimage!amdcad!amd!pesnta!pertec!scgvaxd!trwrb!sdcrdcf!lwall From: sdcrdcf!lwall (Larry Wall) Subject: Re: reentry of paper airplanes? Date: 15 May 85 16:15:58 GMT Reply-To: lwall@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Larry Wall) Organization: System Development Corp. R+D, Santa Monica In article <581@mnetor.UUCP> fred@mnetor.UUCP (Fred Williams) writes: > So what would have to be done is go into re-entry orbit and eject >the paper plane by some means. > NOW! *Just how do you intend to observe what happens?* Write your address on it, and attach a postage stamp. And hope it doesn't land in someone's swimming pool. Larry Wall {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!lwall ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!prls!amdimage!amdcad!amd!pesnta!pertec!scgvaxd!trwrb!sdcrdcf!darrelj From: sdcrdcf!darrelj (Darrel VanBuer) Subject: Re: Speed of Light and beyond Date: 15 May 85 21:55:31 GMT Reply-To: darrelj@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Darrel VanBuer) Organization: System Development Corp. R+D, Santa Monica Cherenkov radiation results (i.e. light) when anything goes faster than the speed of light in a medium. Of course this only happens when the medium is "slower" than a vacuum (e.g. water at 75% of c) since the particle still limited by c. Darrel J. Van Buer, PhD System Development Corp. 2500 Colorado Ave Santa Monica, CA 90406 (213)820-4111 x5449 ...{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,orstcs,sdcsvax,ucla-cs,akgua} !sdcrdcf!darrelj VANBUER@USC-ECL.ARPA -- Darrel J. Van Buer, PhD System Development Corp. 2500 Colorado Ave Santa Monica, CA 90406 (213)820-4111 x5449 ...{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,orstcs,sdcsvax,ucla-cs,akgua} !sdcrdcf!darrelj VANBUER@USC-ECL.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #164 ******************* 21-May-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #165 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 165 Today's Topics: Re: reentry of paper airplanes? Re: Speed of Light and beyond Re: Nuclear Rockets Re: reentry of paper airplanes? Time warp Apollo 13 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!pbear!peterb From: pbear!peterb Subject: Re: reentry of paper airplanes? Date: 19 May 85 21:37:00 GMT Dani, Do you have pointers to the equations for orbit decay, and heat-reentry? I can beleive the 40 day orbit decay, but 1500 deg F reentry heat??? I can beleive it for the shuttle, it has so much FRIGGIN mass. But as you stated, a paper airplane weighs ~ .01 pound. So I think its deacceleration would be quite high, so I just can't see it streaking throught the atmosphere at speeds fast enought to make that much heat. (If it did, it wouldn't even burn up, it would blow up as the paper disintegrated into itty bitty bits.) Peter Barada {ihnp4!inmet|{harvard|cca}!ima}!pbear!peterb ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!utzoo!henry From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Speed of Light and beyond Date: 18 May 85 23:33:43 GMT Organization: U of Toronto Zoology > >I'd be very interested to hear this contradicted by somebody who knows > >more about the subject... > > It's known as Cerenkov radiation. It turns out that the speed of light > depends upon the medium through which it travels (the speed in vacuo > is the ultimate limit), so you can have particles going very near the speed > of light in a vacuum enter water (where the speed of light is much slower) > and create a "sonic boom", except, of course, it is light that is emitted. > This slows the particle rather quickly. Sigh, I knew about Cerenkov radiation, and if I thought people would be this picky [I know, I know, I've done it myself sometimes...] I would have qualified all references to "speed of light" with "in a vacuum". I thought it was reasonably clear from the original posting that the question referred to spaceships, i.e. operations in a vacuum. Now, if somebody can tell me whether an FTL starship would emit Cerenkov radiation in a vacuum, *that* would be interesting. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!utzoo!henry From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Nuclear Rockets Date: 19 May 85 05:30:02 GMT Organization: U of Toronto Zoology > My question is, why were these projects cancelled? Project Orion was ultimately killed by the Limited Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, as you speculated, but it was already languishing for lack of support. The more conventional nuclear-rocket program was killed, just as it was getting real results, simply because it was expensive and there was no mission in sight (i.e. realistically planned, as opposed to passionately desired) that would require a nuclear rocket. Nuclear rockets basically died because NASA decided to use chemical rockets to get to the moon, and all the ambitious followon projects that might have provided later requirements for nuclear rockets got killed by budgets. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!utzoo!utcs!mnetor!fred From: mnetor!fred (Fred Williams) Subject: Re: reentry of paper airplanes? Date: 17 May 85 19:26:03 GMT Reply-To: fred@mnetor.UUCP (Fred Williams) Organization: Computer X (CANADA) Ltd., Toronto, Ontario, Canada In article <3000006@pbear.UUCP> peterb@pbear.UUCP writes: >If you want to observe it, make it out of steel and use ground radar. > Well I did think we were talking about a "paper airplane". If you want to make one out of steel, why not put tiles on it too and call I had understood that the question was: "Would the paper burn before the aerodynamic pressures slowed the plane sufficiently to allow a non-desrtructive re-entry?" If we use steel, what would be the point? I would only be interested in finding out whether or not the low cross-sectional density of a paper plane would allow it to be slowed up sufficiently before heating. A steel plane would surely burn unless protected in some way, or unless possibly it were decelerated to zero velocity with respect to the ground and dropped straight down only under its own weight. Then I imagine it would depend on the initial height. it a "space shuttle" or something like that. >As for needing thousands of MPH difference to inject it into reentry, >look at skylab. It came down on drag alone. I am not implying a shuttle >rentry orbit, just a reentry. A meter per second against the orbit would >cause the airplane to drop into a lower orbit. If you applied about 10G >using a slingshot, I think you could easily acheive reentry insertion, >but the reentry would take quite a number of orbits until drag from the >atmosphere would pull it in for good. > Please understand, I don't dispute that an object in orbit would eventually fall to earth. But from a practical standpoint I would hate to have to wait around for a relatively stable orbit to decay. Also, I would not recommend a shuttle "eva" activity in an orbit that was so close to a re-entry that an astronaut could throw an object into re-entry. No, the fact that the reactionary force would "throw" the astronaut into a higher orbit does not alter my opinion! >Anybody out there have the equations handy (I don't have my physics book >at work) I would like to run up a simulation of this. Mail it and comments >to me > >Peter Barada >{ihnp4!inmet | harvard!ima}!pbear!peterb Now, this idea of simulation seems to have merit! I was about to suggest that a computer simulation could give you all the answers and allow you to vary the conditions and run repeated cases to your heart's content at a very small fraction of the cost. Sorry, I used to work on aero-dynamic simulations of artillery shells, but that was years ago, and I don't have any materials from that job. It is quite a complicated procedure. To people in general; I promise to *try* not to post anything further on this topic. I know some of you must be getting tired of it by now. Thanks for your patience and the absence of flames! Cheers, Fred Williams ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!gymble!lll-crg!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-pen!kallis From: kallis@pen.DEC Subject: Time warp Date: 18 May 85 22:21:04 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: DEC Engineering Network Steve Pearse just asked about "gravity slingshots." I was under the impression we'd been doing this for more than a week. However: The idea of a gravitational "slingshot" is actually a net transfer of energy from a massive primary (Jupiter, Tellus, Saturn) to a much smaller body in a [Solar, in this case] passing orbit so that the orbit is altered. This happens naturally with comets and asteroids (such as Jupiter's "family" of comets). In space sciences, the idea is to set up a condition to exploit this effect -- in this case by sending a probe so that the net effect of the *moving* planet will cause a velocity change that brings about the desired result (e.g., acceleration to outer-Solar-System orbits). Why Jupiter? Why not? It has the biggest moving gravity well available. To answer Steve Pearse's precise question, the probe speeds up (gains energy) and the planet slows down. However, since no energy is created or destroyed in the process, the amount the probe speeds up and the planet slows down is proportional to their masses. And since the probe's mass is nearly infinitesimal in comparison to the planet, the amount the planet slows down is nearly infinitesimal to the amount the probe speeds up. Steve Kallis, Jr. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!gymble!lll-crg!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dvinci!fisher From: fisher@dvinci.DEC Subject: Apollo 13 Date: 18 May 85 22:26:39 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: DEC Engineering Network A bit more about the problem (this is from a NASA book called something like "The Apollo Missions to the Moon". It seems that the heater's acceptable current rating had been upped, but this information had not been circulated to everyone concerned, specifically the folks concerned with the cutoff thermostat in series with the heater. It also seems that at one point, the tank was dropped, fixed back up, and then reinstalled. During a ground test, the tank was filled, and then they tried to empty it. It seemed to take to long (did the drop cause this?), so they cranked up the current in the heater to the (new) max to boil off the oxygen.. Unfortunately, the thermostat had not been upgraded to the new current rating, and when it opened, it arced and welded. None of this was noticed. During the flight, the heater was merrily doing its thing, and when the thermostat was supposed to open and cut it off, it could not. Thus overheating and explosion as mentioned in another posting. Burns UUCP: ... {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dvinci!fisher ARPA: fisher%dvinci.dec@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #165 ******************* 22-May-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #166 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 166 Today's Topics: "MILITARY SPACE" newsletter Re: Speed of Light and beyond Halley Locator Program Re: Swimming in air, etc ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!brl-tgr!wmartin From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: "MILITARY SPACE" newsletter Date: 21 May 85 18:05:45 GMT Organization: USAMC ALMSA Just got a sample copy of this newsletter and thought some of you might be interested -- this is one of those outrageously-priced special-interest newsletters or bulletins. This one is devoted to info about military space programs, policy, and technology. Biweekly, 8 pages: $348 per year (25 issues), including a "free" "$97-value" report -- "Guide to military space programs". Six-month trial sub = $188 for 13 issues. This sample issue is dated May 13 but has no Volume or Issue number, so I can't tell if this is the initial issue or if they have published for a while. It seems to be a jumble of acronyms, with articles on the SDI sub-programs and research areas, contract awards, info on the failed Navy satellite launch from the Shuttle, what seems to be extracts from various DoD press releases about the Space Command and suchlike, etc. It might be interesting to look at, though whether it is worth the high price depends on how vital such info is to you (and if you can shuffle off the cost onto somebody else :-). They'll probably send a free sample to any business address -- Pasha Publications, Inc. (*) Military Space 1401 Wilson Blvd., Suite 910 Arlington, VA 22209 800-424-2908 or (703)528-1244 * They also publish "Military Electronics" and "Space Business News". Regards, Will Martin USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin or ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!randvax!jim From: randvax!jim (Jim Gillogly) Subject: Re: Speed of Light and beyond Date: 15 May 85 18:08:43 GMT Organization: Banzai Institute In article <1776@mordor.UUCP> @S1-A.ARPA,@MIT-MC:TENCATI@JPL-VLSI.ARPA writes: > >I know this is impossible, but what would happen if... >A ship could exceed the speed of light? When the space shuttle crosses the >sound barrier, there is a sonic boom. If it were possible to cross the >"light barrier", what phenomenon would result? As the ship approaches the speed of light its mass approaches infinity. So as it crosses the speed of light I would expect an infinitely strong (if momentary) gravity wave across all of space ... and don't expect it to attenuate by the time it gets here, since the cube root of infinity is going to be pretty big :-) . Perhaps the Tralfamadorians in _Slaughterhouse Five_ did exactly this when they ended the universe -- I seem to remember that it was caused by experiments with a new rocket propulsion system. I'd recommend that you find a way to skip directly from our tardyon universe into the tachyon universe without going across the speed of light. -- Jim Gillogly {decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim jim@rand-unix.arpa ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!zehntel!jackh From: zehntel!jackh (jack hagerty) Subject: Halley Locator Program Date: 20 May 85 21:19:59 GMT Organization: Zehntel Automation Systems Inc, Walnut Creek CA The May issue of the National Space Institute's mothly publication "Space World" has a nice general interest article on the comet by former NSI director Dr. Mark Chartrand. I won't repeat the body of it here since there's nothing in it that hasn't already been posted in this newsgroup. However, at the end of the article is the following announcement: "For those of you with personal computers, NASA has published a computer program written in BASIC that predicts the position of the comet for any location and date you put in. It was written by Dr. Robert Chapman at the Goddard Space Flight Center on an Apple IIe, but should be useful on any microcomputer with minor modifications. It was published in NASA's Educational Publication #197, but that may not be easy for you to find. To get a copy of the 200 line program listing, send a #10 (business-size) self addressed envelope with a 22 cent stamp on it to: Halley's Comet Program, National Space Institute, Suite 203W, 600 Maryland Ave., SW, Washington, DC 20024." Not that I'm just trying to save 44 cents, but do any of you NASA types out there know how I might get Ed Pub #197 directly? I'm within easy driving distance of Ames if the PR department there has any. Better yet, does anyone out there have this program on line? One final note. The illustration that accompanies the article shows the comet's track through the evening and morning skys next spring along with the apparent visual magnitude. The brightest that this chart shows the comet getting is magnitude 4.0 on April 5th. This is dissapointing. according to articles I've read here and elsewhere is should get up to magnitude 2.0, about the same as Polaris. Can anyone shed light on this? -- Jack Hagerty, Zehntel Automation Systems ...!ihnp4!zehntel!jackh ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!orca!warner From: orca!warner (Ken Warner) Subject: Re: Swimming in air, etc Date: 21 May 85 01:14:32 GMT Reply-To: warner@orca.UUCP (Ken Warner) Organization: Tektronix, Wilsonville OR [ ] Still no nibbles on the $1.99 dart gun eh? Oh well ... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 85 23:28:08 est From: Tony Guzzi To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Ted, I just returned from a week vacation and found a lot of SPACE mail waiting for me but I seem to be missing issue #157. Would you please send me a copy. Thanks. Tony Guzzi tonyg%uconn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #166 ******************* 23-May-85 0350 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #167 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 167 Today's Topics: "MILITARY SPACE" newsletter Re: swimming in space Money to burn reporters in space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 166 Today's Topics: "MILITARY SPACE" newsletter Re: Speed of Light and beyond Halley Locator Program Re: Swimming in air, etc ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!brl-tgr!wmartin From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: "MILITARY SPACE" newsletter Date: 21 May 85 18:05:45 GMT Organization: USAMC ALMSA Just got a sample copy of this newsletter and thought some of you might be interested -- this is one of those outrageously-priced special-interest newsletters or bulletins. This one is devoted to info about military space programs, policy, and technology. Biweekly, 8 pages: $348 per year (25 issues), including a "free" "$97-value" report -- "Guide to military space programs". Six-month trial sub = $188 for 13 issues. This sample issue is dated May 13 but has no Volume or Issue number, so I can't tell if this is the initial issue or if they have published for a while. It seems to be a jumble of acronyms, with articles on the SDI sub-programs and research areas, contract awards, info on the failed Navy satellite launch from the Shuttle, what seems to be extracts from various DoD press releases about the Space Command and suchlike, etc. It might be interesting to look at, though whether it is worth the high price depends on how vital such info is to you (and if you can shuffle off the cost onto somebody else :-). They'll probably send a free sample to any business address -- Pasha Publications, Inc. (*) Military Space 1401 Wilson Blvd., Suite 910 Arlington, VA 22209 800-424-2908 or (703)528-1244 * They also publish "Military Electronics" and "Space Business News". Regards, Will Martin USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin or ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!randvax!jim From: randvax!jim (Jim Gillogly) Subject: Re: Speed of Light and beyond Date: 15 May 85 18:08:43 GMT Organization: Banzai Institute In article <1776@mordor.UUCP> @S1-A.ARPA,@MIT-MC:TENCATI@JPL-VLSI.ARPA writes: > >I know this is impossible, but what would happen if... >A ship could exceed the speed of light? When the space shuttle crosses the >sound barrier, there is a sonic boom. If it were possible to cross the >"light barrier", what phenomenon would result? As the ship approaches the speed of light its mass approaches infinity. So as it crosses the speed of light I would expect an infinitely strong (if momentary) gravity wave across all of space ... and don't expect it to attenuate by the time it gets here, since the cube root of infinity is going to be pretty big :-) . Perhaps the Tralfamadorians in _Slaughterhouse Five_ did exactly this when they ended the universe -- I seem to remember that it was caused by experiments with a new rocket propulsion system. I'd recommend that you find a way to skip directly from our tardyon universe into the tachyon universe without going across the speed of light. -- Jim Gillogly {decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim jim@rand-unix.arpa ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!zehntel!jackh From: zehntel!jackh (jack hagerty) Subject: Halley Locator Program Date: 20 May 85 21:19:59 GMT Organization: Zehntel Automation Systems Inc, Walnut Creek CA The May issue of the National Space Institute's mothly publication "Space World" has a nice general interest article on the comet by former NSI director Dr. Mark Chartrand. I won't repeat the body of it here since there's nothing in it that hasn't already been posted in this newsgroup. However, at the end of the article is the following announcement: "For those of you with personal computers, NASA has published a computer program written in BASIC that predicts the position of the comet for any location and date you put in. It was written by Dr. Robert Chapman at the Goddard Space Flight Center on an Apple IIe, but should be useful on any microcomputer with minor modifications. It was published in NASA's Educational Publication #197, but that may not be easy for you to find. To get a copy of the 200 line program listing, send a #10 (business-size) self addressed envelope with a 22 cent stamp on it to: Halley's Comet Program, National Space Institute, Suite 203W, 600 Maryland Ave., SW, Washington, DC 20024." Not that I'm just trying to save 44 cents, but do any of you NASA types out there know how I might get Ed Pub #197 directly? I'm within easy driving distance of Ames if the PR department there has any. Better yet, does anyone out there have this program on line? One final note. The illustration that accompanies the article shows the comet's track through the evening and morning skys next spring along with the apparent visual magnitude. The brightest that this chart shows the comet getting is magnitude 4.0 on April 5th. This is dissapointing. according to articles I've read here and elsewhere is should get up to magnitude 2.0, about the same as Polaris. Can anyone shed light on this? -- Jack Hagerty, Zehntel Automation Systems ...!ihnp4!zehntel!jackh ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!orca!warner From: orca!warner (Ken Warner) Subject: Re: Swimming in air, etc Date: 21 May 85 01:14:32 GMT Reply-To: warner@orca.UUCP (Ken Warner) Organization: Tektronix, Wilsonville OR [ ] Still no nibbles on the $1.99 dart gun eh? Oh well ... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 85 23:28:08 est From: Tony Guzzi To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Ted, I just returned from a week vacation and found a lot of SPACE mail waiting for me but I seem to be missing issue #157. Would you please send me a copy. Thanks. Tony Guzzi tonyg%uconn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #166 ******************* ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!nsc!nessus From: nsc!nessus (Kchula-Rrit) Subject: Re: swimming in space Date: 21 May 85 19:58:42 GMT Organization: The Patriarchy of Kzin, Kzin > In considering "efficiency" you might consider that swim fins push > against water, and your proposed "air fins" work against air (at a > reduced pressure of something like 10 psi to boot, if what I've heard > is correct). I believe air is something like 1/20 as dense as air (at > 14.7psi), so to get the "same effect" you'd need fins 20 times bigger, > i.e., big mongo butterfly wings! This might be OK in Heinlein's big > flying chamber on the moon (see, I believe, _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_) > but it's downright lethal in a space station. ... *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** Wasn't the story by Heinlein called "The Menace From Earth"? Then again, maybe my memory is saturated from read science-fiction since age 12. I agree with the rest of the article. From the alter ego of-- Kchula-Rrit ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 1985 at 1715-EDT Subject: Money to burn From: jim at TYCHO.ARPA (James B. Houser) To: space at mit-mc cc: jim Assume for a moment that we were not in bugetary hard times and could afford an attack of conspicuous consumption. Could a reasonable interstellar one-way unmanned probe mission be designed which would give some legitimate science data in addition to the usual ego stuff. Because of the constraints it will be important keep things simple. The parameters? 1. Assume only near term technology and assets. For example, no space station. You are allowed two shuttle payloads if necessary - doing it in one gets bonus points. 2. Must be ready to launch within 5 years. 3. Assume a target star 20 light years away. 4. Intial data must be received from target star system within 100 years. An interesting question is what collection strategy to use. You could adopt a cometary orbit or try to look for planetary body etc. Minimum requirement is a fly-through at less then .05C mean. Remember that your communications lines have a 40 year turnaround. May be allowed a 10% extension on time limit given a high grade justification. 5. Maximum cost will be 1 billion in current dollars. It may be competing in Congress with a submarine base in Arizona so the cheaper the better. 6. Worship the KISS principle. This thing has to go a long way on it own. Occurred that this would be an interesting thought experiment. You can assume the target is in whatever direction you like if it will help. Prime issue may be the choice of propulsion scheme. Another question is what instruments to carry, preferably few and simple. Any thoughts???? PS "It can't be done" is not an acceptable answer!!! ------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed 22 May 85 09:06:59-EDT From: "Art Evans" Subject: reporters in space To: Space@MIT-MC.ARPA Senator Jake Garn chatted with the press after his trip on the shuttle in mission 51-D. As for reporters in space, Garn said: "I am very anxious for a press person, with great skill as a communicator, to go into space -- and on a round trip, too." Quoted in Aviation Week, May 20, 1985, page 17. ------- ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #167 ******************* 24-May-85 0354 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #168 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 168 Today's Topics: moving through time/moving through space Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space halley program RE: Speed of Light and beyond Re: Speed of Light and beyond Re: Halley magnitude Re: Getting UNSTUCK in the middle of spa Re: Speed of Light and beyond Re: Space Station costs Re: reentry of paper airplanes? RE: Speed of Light and beyond Re: Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Space Simulation Re: Speed of Light and beyond breaking the light barrier Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwrba!cepu!mitch From: cepu!mitch (Bob Mitchell ) Subject: moving through time/moving through space Date: 20 May 85 18:47:55 GMT Reply-To: mitch@cepu.UUCP (Bob Mitchell (ADM)) Organization: VA Wadsworth Med. Center; LA CA >Gee, I find it easy to move through time without moving through space. >Rip van Winkle found it even easier.. >>The speed of the sun on this journey is very great. Our sun and Earth, >>and you along with them, all are moving around the center of the galaxy >>-- right now -- at about 150 miles PER SECOND! Gee, I guess the world left you behind, eh? :-) -- Bob Mitchell UCLA Dept of Neurology uucp: { {ihnp4, uiucdcs}!bradley, hao, trwrb}!cepu!mitch ARPA: cepu!mitch@ucla-cs ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!ihnp4!mgnetp!dicomed!mecc!sewilco From: mecc!sewilco (Scot E. Wilcoxon) Subject: Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Date: 15 May 85 20:46:34 GMT Organization: MN Ed Comp Corp, St Paul If one gets stuck in free-fall in an atmosphere, at least Skylab's swimming technique should work. Shuttle crew can "easily" test other methods (including drifting to air intake vents). Getting stuck "motionless" in vacuum is another matter. But if one got stuck there by pushing another mass away, won't the astronaut and the mass meet again in one orbit? I'm sure someone reading this knows with more certainty than I, but I think the two orbits will cross. I'm not as certain about their being at the same place at the same time. (Let's not bring up the shuttle satellite launches..the shuttle uses rockets to move away from satellite, and satellite motors [usually] also force them into other orbits) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 May 85 9:59:04 EDT From: Dick Koolish Subject: halley program To: space@mit-mc.arpa I have a copy of the Halley position program that was converted to C and distributed to net.sources. If anybody wants a copy, send me a message at koolish@bbn-unix. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw From: rtp47!throopw (Wayne Throop) Subject: RE: Speed of Light and beyond Date: 20 May 85 16:49:25 GMT Organization: Data General, RTP, NC In <1982@sdcrdcf.UUCP> Darrel VanBuer says > Cherenkov radiation results (i.e. light) when anything goes faster than the > speed of light in a medium. Of course this only happens when the medium is > "slower" than a vacuum (e.g. water at 75% of c) since the particle still > limited by c. > Darrel J. Van Buer, PhD I was under the impression that the "anything" had to be charged, IE, an FTL neutron would not produce Cherenkov radiation. If I'm wrong, can someone more up on particle physics mail me a contradiction? In <5608@utzoo.UUCP> Henry Spencer says > Sigh, I knew about Cerenkov radiation, and if I thought people would be > this picky [I know, I know, I've done it myself sometimes...] I would > have qualified all references to "speed of light" with "in a vacuum". > I thought it was reasonably clear from the original posting that the > question referred to spaceships, i.e. operations in a vacuum. Now, if > somebody can tell me whether an FTL starship would emit Cerenkov radiation > in a vacuum, *that* would be interesting. > Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology Now *there's* a more difficult question. Since a spaceship presumably contains some charged particles, if it went FTL (thru water for example) I expect it *would* emit Cherenkov radiation. This probably would be pretty hard to detect amidst the vaporization of the spaceship. :-) On the other hand, just how is the ship supposed to acheive FTL status (in a vacuum)? If it is "hyperspace" or "wormholes" or whatnot, I'd expect no FTL shockwave, since these ideas generally have to do with remaining STL with respect to some "higher space" and sidestepping the issue. If it uses the "correspondence tachyon" method (where every particle of the spaceship is replaced by a corresponding tachyon), I expect it *would* emit Cherenkov radiation, assuming that tachyons have charge. Isn't one of the methods used to search for tachyons to look for the Cherenkov radiation? Interestingly enough, assuming that a tachyon emits Cherenkov radiation, it would naturally decay to lower energy (that is, higher speed) states, accelerating to "infinite" speed. A convenient way to get your spaceship to hurry up. In any event, I'm performing the "public service" of adding net.physics to the newsgroups of this line of discussion. It seems more relevant to particle physics than orbital mechanics or near term space engineering. -- Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC !mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!spar!freeman From: spar!freeman (Jay Freeman) Subject: Re: Speed of Light and beyond Date: 20 May 85 19:07:35 GMT Reply-To: freeman@max.UUCP (Jay Freeman) Organization: Schlumberger Palo Alto Research, CA /* libation to line-eater */ In article <5602@utzoo.UUCP> henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) writes: >> I know this is impossible, but what would happen if... >> >> A ship could exceed the speed of light? > >More seriously, as I recall it, the basic answer to this from relativity >(if we ignore tachyons, which are a messy case) is "does not compute". >Faster-than-light speeds involve logical contradictions (notably, loss of >the normal cause-and-effect relationship) according to special relativity. >This being the case, the theory basically cannot give coherent predictions >about such a situation. > >I'd be very interested to hear this contradicted by somebody who knows >more about the subject... I won't claim to know more about it, but that never kept me from contradicting anybody :-) The mathematics of special relativity does not strictly prohibit FTL speeds. That mathematics says, in essence, that objects in the universe can be divided into five classes: (1) Things moving forward in time, slower than light; (2) things moving forward in time, exactly at the speed of light; (3) things moving faster than light (including infinitely fast, and also including both forward and backward in time); (4) things moving backward in time, at the speed of light; and (5) things moving backward in time, slower than light. The mathematics also says that the action of performing a "Lorentz boost" -- the kind of transformation that has all those square roots of (one minus vee square over c square) in it -- can NEVER move an object from one class into another. A Lorentz boost corresponds roughly to applying a classical force to an object for a while -- perhaps more accurately to giving it a classical kick in the pants, so that the physical interpretation of this mathematics is roughly "if it's slower than light now, you can't make it go FTL with classical forces." But there is no objection to objects which are already FTL (though there seems to be no experimental evidence of them, either). And there is no statement, (I think) that such non-classical events such as particle decays cannot produce tachyons. Many particle physicists, incidentally, will claim the "backwards in time" objects are quite real, namely, as antiparticles. It is indeed true that FTL implies breakdown of causality, but it is also true that the mathematics of the Lorentz transformation contains no assumption that causality holds in the first place. This is an ADDITIONAL assumption, which philosphers and physicists may put in or not, as they see fit. It is erroneous to state that "the Lorentz transformations prohibit FTL because causality is then violated"; because the Lorentz transformations do not feature causality as a postulate. Incidentally, an object is moving "infinitely fast" when its world line is (at least temporarily) perpendicular to the observer's time axis. -- -- Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research) ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 85 09:49:44 PDT (Thursday) From: Lynn.es@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Halley magnitude To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: Lynn.es@Xerox.ARPA "magnitude 4.0 on April 5th. This is dissapointing. according to articles I've read here and elsewhere is should get up to magnitude 2.0, about the same as Polaris. Can anyone shed light on this?" The brightness estimates for Halley's Comet around magnitude 4 are based on trying to plot curves through a graph of magnitude estimates made during the last few passages of Halley's by many different astronomers with both naked eye and through various instruments, without any standardized methods. Then they adjust for the different distances involved in this passage of Halley's. Needless to say, the data are pretty inconsistent. Some comet experts have estimated a few magnitudes brighter after analyzing the methods used by some of the astronomers at the 1910 appearance, and after tossing out estimates made by unknown methods or suspected unreliable observers. The present measurements of brightness are dimmer than anyones estimate (apparently because we are extrapolating to a point too far before passage by the sun, for which no data have ever been gathered), so we still don't know who will be right. But remember even if the brighter estimates are right, that is equal to the light of Polaris SPREAD OUT OVER A FAIR PIECE OF SKY, which is a lot different than a pin point of second magnitude star light. /Don Lynn ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!ISM780!gary From: ISM780!gary Subject: Re: Getting UNSTUCK in the middle of spa Date: 21 May 85 21:05:00 GMT /* Written 2:47 pm May 13, 1985 by jkw@lanl in ISM780:net.space */ > > an ordinary bicycle tire pump. All these ideas center around the > > standard principle that all rockets work by ...ically > > Er, one could, um, auh, ynow, use a, er liquid jet. After coffee > one has at least a pint or so of 'reaction mass'. Just a thought ... > and only in an emergency ... > -- > > E. Michael Smith ...!{hplabs,ihnp4,amd,nsc}!amdahl!ems > > Tilapia Zilli is the way and the light. > > This is the obligatory disclaimer of everything. ...Not to mention that the, er, uh, spigot or um, nozzle, is fairly near the center of gravity... /* End of text from ISM780:net.space */ ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!ucbvax!ucsfcgl!rl From: ucsfcgl!rl (Robert Langridge%CGL) Subject: Re: Speed of Light and beyond Date: 20 May 85 08:01:07 GMT Reply-To: rl@ucsfcgl.UUCP Organization: UCSF Computer Graphics Lab In article <1776@mordor.UUCP> @S1-A.ARPA,@MIT-MC:TENCATI@JPL-VLSI.ARPA writes: >I know this is impossible, but what would happen if... >A ship could exceed the speed of light? When the space shuttle crosses the >sound barrier, there is a sonic boom. If it were possible to cross the >"light barrier", what phenomenon would result? There is an equivalent to the "sonic boom" which occurs when the speed of a particle entering a transparent medium (i.e. water) exceeds the group velocity of light in that medium. It is known as Cerenkov radiation and is in fact used in some modes of particle detection. Bob Langridge (rl@ucsfcgl.UUCP) Computer Graphics Laboratory 926 Medical Sciences (rl@ucsfcgl.ARPA) University of California San Francisco CA 94143 (Phone: +1 415 666 2630) ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!hao!hplabs!ames!aurora!al From: aurora!al (Al Globus) Subject: Re: Space Station costs Date: 14 May 85 19:28:04 GMT Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA > > I just reread Gene's post and must correct the numbers. The space station > funding is ~$8B over 10-12 years (A ludicrously long timeframe). The > average funding is in $100M's/year. The NASA budget is about 6.5B/yr, and I > believe about 50% of that is for aeronautics rather than astronautics. If > anyone is interested in the actual breakdown, I'll try to dig it up and post > it. Aeronautics is considerably less than 50%. Also, the $8 billion does not include launch, crew, training, or any payloads. It does not include $3-4 billion of foreign participation. It does not include substational internal funds NASA contractors have invested (NASA did a wonderful job of getting the contractors to spend their own money in the initial studies, including the current phase B studies). Total cost is hard to estimate, particularly over the 20-30 year design life of the station. My guess is $15-20 billion to IOC (initial operational capability) and plenty more after it. This is not to knock the station, I'm a big fan (in fact I work on it). But the fact is that total cost is considerably in excess of $8 billion. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!spar!freeman From: spar!freeman (Jay Freeman) Subject: Re: reentry of paper airplanes? Date: 22 May 85 18:07:51 GMT Reply-To: freeman@max.UUCP (Jay Freeman) Organization: Schlumberger Palo Alto Research, CA /* libation to line-eater */ In article <1975@sdcrdcf.UUCP> lwall@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Larry Wall) writes: >Write your address on it, and attach a postage stamp. And hope it doesn't >land in someone's swimming pool. > With all the fuss about stability augmentation for the shuttle, I doubt that the fact that a paper airplane is airplane-shaped would have much to do with its chances for surviving reentry. But how about just tossing out a bunch of stamped, self-addressed postcards and seeing whether any of them ever came back? -- -- Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research) (canonical disclaimer) ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!brl-tgr!gwyn From: gwyn@brl-tgr.ARPA (Doug Gwyn ) Subject: RE: Speed of Light and beyond Date: 23 May 85 12:38:07 GMT Organization: Ballistic Research Lab > Isn't one of the methods used to search for tachyons to look for the > Cherenkov radiation? Yes, and you may notice they haven't found any. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tektronix!zehntel!hplabs!ames!aurora!al From: aurora!al (Al Globus) Subject: Re: Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Date: 14 May 85 19:32:38 GMT Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA This is a non-problem, unless the astronaut is exactly at the center of mass of the space vehicle. If the center of mass is at a different place the astronaut will have a slightly different orbit around the Earth and will eventually reach the side of the space ship. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!houxm!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tektronix!hplabs!ames!aurora!al From: aurora!al (Al Globus) Subject: Space Simulation Date: 16 May 85 22:43:12 GMT Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA This letter didn't get through so I'm posting it in hopes of getting through. Sorry for the inconvenience. To: ames!hplabs!intelca!qantel!dual!mordor!@S1-A.ARPA,@MIT-MC:moseley%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: Re: HELP REQUEST FOR SIMULATION COURSE Nothing comes immediately to mind, but we do a great deal of space project simulation here (space station operational simulation, orbital refueling system). I would like to talk to you about what you're class might do, and with a day or two's thinking I'm fairly sure I could come up with several interesting projects. Please give me a ring at: (415) 694-5751 or (408) 425-7038 Please do not call before 9AM California time. al globus P.S. How about simulating an automated experiment module? One group at Ames is interested in automation technologies for the life science modele. There might be some synergy. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!ucbvax!ucsfcgl!rl From: ucsfcgl!rl (Robert Langridge%CGL) Subject: Re: Speed of Light and beyond Date: 23 May 85 02:25:32 GMT Reply-To: rl@ucsfcgl.UUCP Organization: UCSF Computer Graphics Lab <-- A quick introduction to faster-than-light travel (by charged particles at least), and the use of the resultant electromagnetic equivalent of the sonic boom, is given on pages 58-60 of the June 1985 Scientific American. Bob Langridge rl@ucsfcgl (UUCP and ARPA) ------------------------------ From: crash!bwebster@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Thu, 23 May 85 13:08:23 PDT To: space@mit-mc Subject: breaking the light barrier I remember reading an SF short (very short) story about the light barrier. In it, the handsome, brilliant hero built his star ship based on an unlimited power supply he had discovered. He shoved the throttle forward, and when he hit the speed of light, his ship attained infinite mass and caused the entire universe to collapse into a giant black hole. The moral: you *can* go faster than light . . . once. ..bruce.. crash!bwebster@ucsd ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!sabre!zeta!epsilon!gamma!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!cbosgd!ukma!sean From: ukma!sean (Sean Casey) Subject: Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Date: 22 May 85 06:51:56 GMT Reply-To: sean@ukma.UUCP (Sean Casey) Organization: The White Tower @ The Univ. of KY In article <129@mecc.UUCP> sewilco@mecc.UUCP (Scot E. Wilcoxon) writes: > >Getting stuck "motionless" in vacuum is another matter. But >if one got stuck there by pushing another mass away, won't >the astronaut and the mass meet again in one orbit? I'm sure >someone reading this knows with more certainty than I, but I >think the two orbits will cross. If the Astronaut threw a mass in exactly the same line of his orbit, they would meet again eventually, but the Astronaut would be long dead from lack of air. Assuming the astronaut threw a 30 MPH pitch with the mass, it would have to circumscribe a circle much larger than the circumference of the earth, at a speed of 30 MPH. It would be more than 35 days before the object made it back around. If the course of the object deviated from the "orbit line" in the slightest, the chances of the two ever meeting again are, uh, astronomical. -- - Sean Casey UUCP: {cbosgd,anlams,hasmed}!ukma!sean - Department of Mathematics ARPA: ukma!sean@ANL-MCS.ARPA - University of Kentucky ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #168 ******************* 25-May-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #169 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 169 Today's Topics: cheap interstellar probes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Friday, 24 May 1985 06:41:30-PDT From: redford%avoid.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford) To: space@mc, jlr%avoid.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: cheap interstellar probes Hmmm, what could we do to make a cheap interstellar probe? The parameters proposed were that the probe has to report back within a hundred years from a star no more than 20 light years away. That seems a long way away. How about if we just stick with Alpha Centauri at 4.3 ly, and say that it has to report back within fifty years? That implies a trip time of 46 years, and a velocity of about 0.1C, or 30,000 km/s . We're not going to get that with chemical rockets. One restriction was reasonably near-term technology, so matter-antimatter drives are out. Fission drives seem a bit bulky, and we don't know how to do controlled fusion drives, so we'll put those aside. How about a laser-driven light sail, like in "The Mote in God's Eye"? Light sails work by reflecting photons, thus gaining twice the momentum of the photon stream. The momentum, p, of a stream of photons is E/c where E is the stream's energy, so the change in momentum of the sail is 2E/c. The change in momentum per unit time is 2P/c, where P is the power of the stream. The acceleration of the sail, a, is the change in momentum per unit time divided by the mass of the sail, m, so: a = (2/c) * (P/m) We want to get the velocity up t0.1C2C in 46 years, so v = a*t = (2/c) * (P/m) * t P/m = v*c / 2*t = 6e6 W/kg For every kilogram of sail, we must apply 6 million watts for 46 years. That works out to 2.6 billion kW-hrs of energy per kilogram of sail, or (at seven cents per kilowatt-hour) 180 million dollars worth of energy per kg. This looks pretty grim. Never mind the problems of keeping a laser focussed on a sail 4 light-years away, or keeping the sail from melting in the beam. A 1000 kg probe will cost 180 billion bucks just in energy to get to the nearest star. Time to break out the hyperdrive. John Redford DEC-Hudson ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #169 ******************* 26-May-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #170 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 170 Today's Topics: Re: Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Launch Delay Re: Apollo 13 (Space Flight) Interstellar probes Rescue Attempt ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!phoenix!brent From: phoenix!brent (Brent P. Callaghan) Subject: Re: Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Date: 23 May 85 15:14:19 GMT Organization: AT&T Information Systems, Lincroft NJ Al Globus writes: > This is a non-problem, unless the astronaut is exactly at the center of > mass of the space vehicle. If the center of mass is at a different place > the astronaut will have a slightly different orbit around the Earth and > will eventually reach the side of the space ship. Surely this depends on whether the spacecraft has earth synchronous rotation or not. A three axis stabilized spacecraft pointing its instruments at various stellar objects does not rotate. If the center of mass of such a spacecraft is in a circular orbit, then points distributed about this point will be in various elliptical orbits which maintain a constant separation. If we assume a polar or equatorial orbit, wouldn't the perturbations be negligible ? -- Made in New Zealand --> Brent Callaghan AT&T Information Systems, Lincroft, NJ {ihnp4|mtuxo|pegasus}!phoenix!brent (201) 576-3475 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!alberta!sask!zaphod!dkatz From: zaphod!dkatz (Dave Katz) Subject: Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Date: 22 May 85 15:36:31 GMT Reply-To: dkatz@zaphod.UUCP (Dave Katz) Organization: Develcon Electronics, Saskatoon, SK In article <129@mecc.UUCP> sewilco@mecc.UUCP (Scot E. Wilcoxon) writes: > ... >Getting stuck "motionless" in vacuum is another matter. But >if one got stuck there by pushing another mass away, won't >the astronaut and the mass meet again in one orbit? I'm sure >someone reading this knows with more certainty than I, but I >think the two orbits will cross. ..... Depend partly on what you mean by "crossing". If the objects are not of equal mass, the lighter one will have a greater velocity (conservation of momentum), and hence a lower orbit since the radius of orbit is inversly proportional to the velocity. This gets more complex with considerations of the angle, relative to the direction of travel, etc. leading to elliptical orbits, etc. but will only apply as stated if both bodies have the same mass. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Launch Delay Date: 24 May 85 04:27:13 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill The launch of the Discovery has been put off, from 12 June, to no earlier than 17 June, due to a potential problem with two of the four satellites to be launched during the mission. The problem is in an antenna positioning mechanism, and NASA decided to replace the mechanisms on both affected satellites rather than risk a defect developing in space. Discovery is to be moved to the VAB on Tuesday. An hour later, Atlantis will be towed to the OFP, where it will begin undergoing preparations for its 26 September maiden voyage. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!rochester!cmu-cs-pt!cadre!psuvax1!burdvax!bnapl From: burdvax!bnapl (Tom Albrecht) Subject: Re: Apollo 13 (Space Flight) Date: 24 May 85 16:53:48 GMT Reply-To: bnapl@burdvax.UUCP (Tom Albrecht) Organization: Burroughs Corp. - SDG/Devon The PBS series "Space Flight" did a very good job in recounting the events of the ill-fated Apollo 13 mission. As a matter of fact, the whole series of shows has been very good; much better than that historical-romance fluff called "Space". Or was it called "Sex"?-:) -- Tom Albrecht Burroughs Corp. ...{presby|psuvax1|sdcrdcf}!burdvax!bnapl Communism is to government what astrology is to science. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 May 85 14:44:50 pdt From: Ross Finlayson Subject: Interstellar probes To: space@mit-mc It seems to me that there are two basic psychological problems that are going to stand in the way of any interstellar mission taking place in the (very) near future. The first problem can be illustrated as follows: Suppose that we currently have the technology to send an (unmanned) probe to a nearby star, knowing that it would take 100 years to get there. Suppose also that we are fairly confident that in 20 years time, our technology will have improved sufficiently to allow the trip to be made in 50 years instead of 100. Given this scenario, would we seriously consider launching a probe in 1985? It hardly seems likely - it would make far more sense to wait until 2005, and thus save 30 years. However, come 2005, we might well feel that in another 10 years we would have the technology to make the trip in 30 years instead of 50. Thus, we would be tempted to postpone the mission until 2015, to save another 10 years. In other words, we would not send out a probe until we were confident that we could not advance the arrival time by waiting for further advances in technology. In an ideal world, this would be an optimal strategy. In practice, however, a technological stasis is likely to result. Many early probe designs will not get tested, and the actual rate of technological advancement is likely to be considerably retarded, to the extent that we might not reach the stars until several decades later than we could. (I suppose the `ideal' probe would be one that is able to adapt itself to advances in technology as they are discovered on Earth and radioed to the probe while in transit :-) The second problem is more obvious. Even if we were sure that we could not improve significantly on the 100 year transit time (at least, not within the next 100 years), how many people would be willing to support a multi-billion dollar project, the results of which only their great-great-grandchildren would see? I know I would, but many members of Congress seem unable to look further than their next election. Our friend Sen. Proxmire woud have a field day. Fortunately Columbus, Magellan, Tasman, Cook etc. weren't faced with these problems. Ross Finlayson Stanford CS Dept. ARPA: rsf@su-pescadero.ARPA UUCP: ...!{decwrl,ucbvax}!Glacier!Shasta!rsf ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Rescue Attempt Date: 25 May 85 05:15:10 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill Astronauts on the August shuttle mission will try to repair in orbit the failed Syncom satellite that was stranded during earlier this year. The resuce attempt will involve two spacewalking crew members bypassing the electronic timing mechanism on the satellite, enabling the satellite to receive commands from the ground. NASA cautions that there is limited chance for success, because the satellite is now being exposed to temperatures far below its design specifications. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #170 ******************* 27-May-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #171 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 171 Today's Topics: Re: Getting UNSTUCK in the middle of spa ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!hao!denelcor!denelvx!neal From: denelvx!neal (Neal Weidenhofer) Subject: Re: Getting UNSTUCK in the middle of spa Date: 25 May 85 22:10:42 GMT Organization: Denelcor, Aurora, Colorados ****************************************************************************** > > ...Not to mention that the, er, uh, spigot or um, nozzle, is fairly near > the center of gravity... But just imagine the screams of sexual discrimination because of males' superior directional control. Regards, Neal Weidenhofer "Blame it on the Rolling Denelcor, Inc. Stones" !denelcor!neal ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #171 ******************* 28-May-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #172 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 172 Today's Topics: GENERAL SPACE REPORTS ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Mon, 27 May 85 14:07:20 PDT To: crash!noscvax!space@mit-mc Subject: GENERAL SPACE REPORTS TO:SPACENET SUBJECT: THE FOLLOWING ARE A BUNCH OF NASA NEWS REPORTS FROM THE INTERCOMEX BULLETIN BOARD IN DENVER, CO. NEWS ITEMS ARE SOMETIMES SLIGHTLY EDITED TO REDUCE SIZE FOR EASY READIBILITY, BUT ALL ITEMS MAINTAIN CONTENT INTEGRITY. HOPE YOU FIND THESE INTERESTING. FROM: CRASH!USIIDEN!MARKF@NOSC (MARK FELTON) FROM: NASA/NEWS SERVICE SUBJ: POSSIBLE ASTEROID FLY-BY NASA ADM. JAMES M. BEGGS HAS APPROVED THE ADDITION OF AN ASTEROID FLYBY OPTION TO THE GALILEO MISSION AND TO CHANGE THE JUPITER ARRIVAL DATE FROM AUG TO DEC 1988. THE OPTION WILL PERMIT A POST LAUNCH DECISION TO FLY BY THE ASTEROID 29 AMPHITRITE IN DEC 1986. ** IF THE OPTION IS ELECTED, IT WOULD ADD A SIGNIFICANT FIRST TO THE GALILEO MISSION. ** AMPHITRITE IS IN A NEAR CIRCULAR ORBIT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ASTEROID BELT AT 2.5 AU FROM THE SUN (1 AU = ABOUT 150,000,000 KM). AMPHITRITE, ABOUT 200 KM IN DIAMETER, IS ONE OF THE LARGER OF THE MINOR PLANETS. ** THE FLYBY DISTANCE WILL BE DETERMINED BY SPACECRAFT SAFETY CONSIDERATIONS. AT PRESENT, 10-20,000 KM IS CONSIDERED SAFE AND SHOULD ADD SIGNIFICANT SCIENTIFIC DATA FROM MEASUREMENTS AND DOPPLER TRACKING DATA OBTAINED FROM THAT DISTANCE. ** AMPHITRITE APPEARS AS THE 12TH LARGEST ASTEROID AND HAS FLUCTUATIONS SUGGESTING A ROTATION PERIOD OF 5.39 HRS. AT THAT RATE, MOST OF THE SURFACE CAN BE PHOTOGRAPHED AND SCANNED BY GALILEO'S MAPPING SPECTROMETER. ANALYSIS WILL REVEAL SIZE, SHAPE, MASS AND DENSITY, ITS EXACT ROTATION RATE AND POLE ORIENTATION AND ITS DETAILED SURFACE MORPHOLOGY AND MINERAL COMPOSITION. THESE WILL DETERMINE IF IT IS A PRIMITIVE ACCUMULATION OF SOLAR NEBULAE CONDENSATES OR WHETHER IT IS AN EVOLVED BODY THAT IS A FRAGMENT, OR PERHAPS A CORE, OF A BROKEN UP MINOR PLANET. INFORMATION WILL HELP DETERMINE IF ASTEROIDS ARE A SOURCE OF METEORITES WHICH FALL ON THE EARTH. ** AMPHITRITE, THE 29TH ASTEROID DISCOVERED, WAS DETECTED BY ALBERT MARTH, IN LONDON, ENGLAND, AT THE WILLIAM BISHOP OBSERVATORY ON MARCH 1, 1854. THE ASTEROID WAS NAMED FOR ONE OF THE MYTHICAL GOD NEPTUNE'S WIVES. ** JIM KUKOWSKI HQ AND MARY BETH MURRILL JET PROPULSION LAB (PASADENA, CA) ** ********************* FROM: NASA/NEWS SERVICE SUBJ: MATERIALS PROCESSING LAB A MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING SIGNED BY THE NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION AND ROCKWELL INTERNATIONAL CORP., DOWNEY CALIF. COULD PROVIDE FUTURE SHUTTLE FLIGHT ASSIGNMENTS FOR ON-ORBIT TRANSPORT OF THE AEROSPACE FIRM'S UNIQUELY-DESIGNED MATERIALS PROCESSING LABORATORY. ** UNDER THE TERMS OF THE 180 DAY MOU, ROCKWELL WILL DEVELOP AN INDUSTRIAL SPACE PROCESSING PROGRAM IN WHICH THE COMPANY'S MODULAR, ZERO GRAVITY LABORATORY WOULD BE MADE AVAILABLE TO RESEARCH INSTITUTIONS AND COMMERCIAL FIRMS FOR INSTALLATION AND OPERATION OF DEVELOPMENT EXPERIMENTS. ** EXPERIMENT PACKAGES WOULD INVOLVE A RANGE OF PROCESSING APPLICATIONS INCLUDING LIQUID CHEMISTRY, FLUID PHYSICS, THERMODYNAMICS, CRYSTAL GROWTH AND BIOLOGICAL CELL CULTURING. ** ROCKWELL'S LABORATORY - WITH AN IN-HOUSE COMPANY NAME OF FLUIDS EXPERIMENT APPARATUS (FEA) - IS DESIGNED FOR PLACEMENT IN STOWAGE AREAS OF THE SHUTTLE'S MID-DECK WHERE IT WOULD BE ENGAGED AND MONITORED BY SHUTTLE CREW MEMBERS. ** THE ZERO-G LABORATORY, ABOUT THE SIZE OF A 19 INCH TELEVISION SET, IS THE FIRST INDUSTRIALLY DEVELOPED LABORATORY TO BE MADE AVAILABLE TO THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY AND COMMERCIAL FIRMS PERMITTING THE PROPRIETARY PURSUIT OF BASIC AND PRODUCT RESEARCH IN LOW-EARTH ORBIT. ** THE FEA WAS SUCCESSFULLY SPACE FLOWN AND OPERATED LAST SUMMER ON SHUTTLE MISSION 41-D (8/30 TO 9/5/84) WHEN, USING THE FLOAT ZONE TECHNIQUE, A SINGLE INDIUM CRYSTAL WAS GROWN WITH A LATTICE STRUCTURE ORIGINATING FROM A CRYSTAL SEED. ** EDWARD CAMPION HQ ************************ FROM: MARK FELTON SUBJ: SAGAN & SAGDEEV - MARS ??? ASTRONOMER CARL SAGAN CALLED FOR A JOINT PROGRAM TO PUT AN AMERICAN AND A SOVIET ON MARS BY THE YR 2003. ONE OF THE TOP OFFICIALS OF THE SOVIET ACADEMY OF SCIENCE, ROALD SAGDEEV, EXPRESS INTEREST IN THE IDEA. BOTH MEN PLEADED FOR A REVIVAL OF COOPERATION BETWEEN THE SUPERPOWERS. ** SAGDEEV, WHO RUNS THE SOVIETS' UNMANNED PLANETARY EXPLORATATION PROGRAM AND WAS MAKING A RARE PUBLIC APPEARANCE IN AMERICA, SAID IT IS VITAL THAT "THE UNITED STATES AND SOVIET UNION POSSESS SOME JOINT OBJECT IN SPACE." ** HE STOPPED SHORT OF ENDORSING SAGANS' IDEA WHICH CALLS FOR AN EARTH ORBITING STATION WHERE A MARS BOUND SPACESHIP COULD BE ASSEMBLED. THIS WOULD ELIMINATE THE NEED TO HAVE THE SHIP BREAK FROM EARTH GRAVITY. THE COST, ONCE THE SPACE STATION WAS BUILT WOULD BE $40 BILLION, THE B-1 BOMBER COSTS $25 BILLION, THE STAR WARS PLAN $1 TRILLION. ** SAGDEEV'S INTEREST IN THE MARS PLAN WAS CAUTIOUS, ALTHOUGH CLEARLY EAGER FOR JOINT VENTURES SUCH AS APOLLO-SOYUZ. THERE SHOULD BE COOPERATION IN SEARCH-AND- RESCUE SATELLITES AND LIFE-SCIENCE EXPERIMENTS IN SPACE, HE SAID. ** OTHER SPEAKERS AT THE CONFERENCE HELD BY THE PLANETARY SOCIETY AND THE NATL. ACADEMY OF ARTS AND SCIENCES INCLUDED MAJOR ARCHITECTS AND CRITICS OF THE "STAR WARS" (STRATEGIC DEFENSE INITIATIVE) POLICY. GEROLD YONAS, THE PROGRAM'S CHIEF SCIENTIST, IN RESPONSE TO A QUESTION BY SAGDEEV, ASSERTED THE SOVIETS HAVE ALREADY SPENT FAR MORE THAN THE U.S. TO DEVELOP FIGHTING CAPABILITY IN SPACE. RATHER THAN STOP THE RESEARCH, HE SAID, "IT'S IN BOTH OUR INTEREST TO MUTUALLY DEPLOY." ** TAKEN FROM AN ASSOCIATED PRESS ARTICLE BY HENRY GOTTLIED PUBLISHED IN THE DENVER POST JAN 13, 1985 ** ********************** SUBJ: ATLAS CENTAUR CONTRACT THE NASA LEWIS RESEARCH CENTER, CLEVELAND, HAS AWARDED A FOLLOW ON CONTRACT VALUED AT $32,346,000 TO THE CONVAIR DIVISION (GD/C), GENERAL DYNAMICS, SAN DIEGO. ** UNDER TERMS OF THE CONTRACT, GD/C WILL PERFORM OPERATIONS TO ERECT, TEST AND LAUNCH THE ATLAS CENTAUR LAUNCH VEHICLES. ADDITIONALLY, THE CONTRACT WILL INCLUDE THE SUPPORT TESTING AND LAUNCH OF CENTAUR UPPER STAGES TO BE USED ON SHUTTLE MISSION SCHEDULED FOR 1986. MODIFICATIONS OF THE LAUNCH FACILITY FOR THE CAPABILITY ARE ALSO INCLUDED IN THE CONTRACT. ** THE COST-PLUS-AWARD-FEE CONTRACT, BEGINNING JANUARY 1, 1985, AND RUNNING THROUGH DECEMBER 1986, IS A CONTINUATION OF WORK PERFORMED UNDER EARLIER CONTRACTS WITH GD/C. WORK WILL BE PERFORMED AT THE EASTERN SPACE AND MISSILE CENTER, FLA. ** CENTAUR IS A HIGH ENERGY UPPER STAGE CURRENTLY USED WITH EXPENDABLE BOOSTERS TO DELIVER LARGE PAYLOADS TO GEOSYNCHRONOUS ORBIT. IT IS EXPECTED TO ADD SUBSTANTIALLY TO THE SPACE SHUTTLE'S ABILITY BY CARRYING HEAVIER PAYLOADS FROM LOW EARTH ORBIT TO GEOSYNCHRONOUS ORBIT OR INTERPLANETARY TRAJECTORIES. ** DEBRA J. RAHN HQ AND MARY ANN PETO LEWIS RES CENTER, CLEVE. **************************** FROM: NASA/NEWS SERVICE SUBJ: BLOOD EXPERIMENT ON SHUTTLE AN EXPERIMENT TO INVESTIGATE THE EFFECTS OF DIFFERENT DISEASES ON RED BLOOD CELL AGGREGATION AND BLOOD VISCOSITY WILL BE CARRIED ABOARD SPACE SHUTTLE FLIGHT 51-C. THE EXPERIMENT WAS ORIGINALLY SCHEDULED TO BE FLOWN ON MISSION 51-A IN NOV. '84 BUT WAS WITHDRAWN FROM THE MAINFEST DUE TO ORBITER WEIGHT AND CENTER OF GRAVITY CONSIDERATIONS. THE DEPT. OF DEFENSE ALLOWED NASA TO ADD THE EXPERIMENT TO 51-C, A DEDICATED DOD MISSION. ** CALLED AGGREGATION OF RED BLOOD CELLS (ARC), THE EXPERIMENT IS DESIGNED TO PROVIDE INFORMATION ON THE RATE OF FORMATION (KINETICS) AND THE INTERNAL STRUCTURE AND ORGANIZATION (MORPHOLOGY) OF RED CELLS, AND ON THE THICKNESS (VISCOSITY) OF WHOLE BLOOD AT HIGH AND LOW FLOW RATES. ** BLOOD SAMPLES FROM BOTH HEALTHY DONORS AND DONORS WITH DIFFERENT MEDICAL CONDITIONS, SUCH AS HEART DISEASE, HYPERTENSION, DIABETES AND CANCER, WILL BE USED. RESULTS OBTAINED IN MICROGRAVITY WILL BE COMPARED WITH RESULTS FROM A GROUND BASED EXPERIMENT TO DETERMINE WHAT EFFECTS GRAVITY HAS ON THE KINETICS AND MORPHOLOGY OF THE BLOOD. THE GRND BASED EXPERIMENT WILL BE CONDUCTED SIMULTANEOUSLY WITH THE FLIGHT EXP., USING IDENTICAL BLOOD SAMPLES AND FUNCTIONALLY IDENTICAL HARDWARE. ** THE EXP. USES 8 BLOOD SAMPLES NEAR 4 DEG C AND STORED IN TUBULAR SYRINGES. STIRRING IS ACCOMPLISHED BY A MOTOR DRIVEN MAGNET THAT ACTIVATES A TEFLON COATED STEEL BALL INSIDE THE SAMPLE. THE BLOOD FLOWS TO A VISCOMETER, WHICH MEASURES RATE OF FLOW. TWO 35MM CAMERAS PHOTOGRAPH THE BLOOD THROUGH A 10 AND 300 X MICROSCOPE. THE EXP. WAS DEVELOPED BY DR. L. DINTENFASS (DEPT. OF MED. RES.) IN SYDNEY, AUSTRALIA. ** C. REDMOND HQ; J. KUKOWSKI HQ AND ED MEDAL MARSHALL SFC ** ************************** FROM: NASA/NEWS SERVICE SUBJ: INDUSTRY SPACE PLATFORM THE GODDARD SPACE FLIGHT CENTER, GREENBELT, MD., HAS ISSUED A REQUEST FOR PROPOSAL, ASKING INDUSTRY TO DEVELOP A SPACE PLATFORM TO PROVIDE FIVE YEARS OF ON-ORBIT SERVICES TO NASA PAYLOADS AND STILL ALLOW THE DEVELOPER TO MARKET TO A WIDE VARIETY OF COMERCIAL USERS. ** IN A DEPARTURE FROM CUSTOMARY PRACTICES, INDUSTRY WOULD FINANCE, DEVELOP, OWN AND OPERATE THE PLATFORM. ** THE PLATFORM - WHICH IS TOTALLY SEPARATE FROM NASA'S PLANS FOR A GOVERNMENT - DEVELOPED PERMANENT MANNED SPACE STATION - COMMERCIAL ENTREPRENEUR WOULD BE FREE TO MARKET THE PLATFORM SERVICES FOR MATERIALS PROCESSING OR OTHER MANUFACTURING TYPE ACTIVITIES. ** HOWEVER, THE GOVERNMENT STIPULATES THAT THE PLATFORM MUST BE CAPABLE OF PROVIDING SERVICES FOR THREE OF NASA'S FORTHCOMING PROJECTS - THE EXTREME ULTRAVIOLET EXPLORER (EUVE), THE X-RAY TIMING EXPLORER (XTE) AND ZERO GRAVITY PAYLOAD - AS WELL AS FOR A FOURTH AS YET UNIDENTIFIED PROJECT. ** THE EUVE WILL BE A FREE FLYER AFTER ITS DEPLOYMENT FROM THE SPACE SHUTTLE ON A MISSION NOW SCHEDULED FOR DEC. 1988. ITS PRIMARY OBJECTIVE WILL BE TO CONDUCT A SURVEY OF THE ENTIRE CELESTIAL SPHERE (FULL-SKY) IN THE EXTREME ULTRAVIOLET. THE SCIENCE PAYLOAD WILL WEIGH 1,600 LB. ** THE XTE WILL EXPLORE X-RAY SOURCES TO HELP SCIENTISTS LEARN MORE ABOUT THE PHYSICAL LAWS GOVERNING THEIR BEHAVIOR. THE XTE PAYLOAD WILL WEIGH BETWEEN 3300 TO 4400 LB. ** THE MICRO-GRAVITY PAYLOAD CARRIER WILL WEIGH 2000 LB AND WILL BE USED TO HOUSE MICRO-GRAVITY EXPERIMENTS ON ORBIT FOR UP TO 6 MO. THE CONTRACTOR WILL BE REQUIRED TO MAINTAIN THE ZERO-GRAVITY ENVIRONMENT AND TO SUPPLY CONTINUOUS POWER UP TO 2KW. ** LEON PERRY HQ AND JIM ELLIOT GODDARD SPACE FLT CENTR. ************************* FROM: NASA/NEWS SERVICE SUBJ: TRACKING STATION TRANSFER NASA'S GODDARD SPACE FLIGHT CENTER, GREENBELT, MD., WILL TRANSFER SPACECRAFT TRACKING AND DATA ACQUISITION OPERATIONS FROM ITS BELTSVILLE TRACKING STATION TO ITS WALLOPS FLIGHT FACILITY, WALLOPS ISLAND, VA., BY EARLY 1986. ** THIS MOVE WILL CONSOLIDATE THESE SPACE OPERATIONS WITH WALLOP'S EXISTING TRACKING AND DATA ACQUISITION EFFORTS IN SUPPORT OF BALLOON, SOUNDING ROCKET AND AERONAUTICAL FLIGHT RESEARCH. ** THE REALIGNMENT IS PART OF A GODDARD PROGRAM TO STREAMLINE ITS TRACKING NETWORK FACILITIES AS THE NEED FOR GROUND STATIONS DIMINISHES WITH THE ADVENT OF THE NEW SPACEBORNE TRACKING AND DATA RELAY SATELLITE SYSTEM. ** (TDRSS). ** TDRSS WIL CONSIST OF THREE COMMUNICATIONS SATELLITES IN EARTH GEOSYNCHRONOUS ORBIT TO PROVIDE GLOBAL COVERAGE OF EARTH ORBITING SATELLITES, REPLACING THE CURRENT WORLDWIDE NETWORK OF GROUND STATIONS. THE FIRST TDRSS SATELLITE WAS LAUNCHED IN APRIL 1983. THE SECOND SATELLITE WILL BE LAUNCHED ABOUT FEB. 20. ** MOST OF THE TRACKING STATIONS IN GODDARD'S CURRENT WORLDWIDE NETWORK WILL BE EITHER PHASED OUT OR TRANSFERRED TO OTHER AGENCIES OR TO NASA'S DEEP SPACE NETWORK AS THE TDRSS BECOMES OPERATIONAL. ** IN ADDITION TO WALLOPS, GODDARD WILL CONTINUE TO MAINTAIN GROUND NETWORK STATIONS AT BERMUDA AND MERRITT ISLAND, FLA., FOR SUPPORT OF*CENTER, FLA., DURING THE TDRSS ERA. THE STATION IN WHITE SANDS, N.M., IS THE GROUND TERMINAL FOR THE ORBITING TDRSS SATELLITES. ** KEN ATCHISON HQ WASHINGTON, D.C. ************************* FROM: NASA/NEWS SERVICE SUBJ: AVIATION REPORTING NASA'S ANONYMOUS AND VOLUNTARY AVIATION SAFETY REPORTING SYSTEM (ASRS) IN EIGHT YRS HAS EVALUATED SOME 42,000 INCIDENT REPORTS, AND ISSUED 805 ALERT BULLETINES AND 28 RESEARCH REPORTS TO FURTHER IMPROVE SAFETY IN THE AIRWAYS. ** "WE BELIEVE THAT ASRS REPROTS HAVE ELIMIANTED SERIOUS HAZARDS AND SAVED LIVES, " STATED WILLIAM REYNARD, PROG. MGR. AT NASA AMES RES. CENTR. ASRS WAS DESIGNED AND IMPLEMENTED BY NASA IN 1976 AT THE REQUEST OF THE FAA. NASA WAS TO SERVE AS "A NEUTRAL THIRD PARTY" IN OPERATING THE SYSTEM. ** ASRS REPORTS HAVE LED TO REVISION IN BOTH AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL PROCEDURES AND FAA REGULATIONS. ** ASRS REPORTS SHOWED RANDOM CONVERSATIONS AND OTHER NON-ESSENTIAL ACTIVITY DURING HEAVY WORKLOAD ARE DANGEROUSLY DISTRACTIVE. ASRS IS CONFIDENTIAL AND VOLUNTARY, ALLOWING REPORTING OF HAZARDOUS CONDITIONS THAT MIGHT NOT OTHERWISE BE REPORTED. ** ENGLAND HAS BEGUN A SIMILAR PROGRAM AND CANADA IS DEVELOPING ONE. ** A 40,000 ITEM DATA BASE HAS BECOME A MAJOR RESOURCE FOR VARIOUS HUMAN FACTORS RESEARCH. ** ASRS GETS ABOUT 500 INCIDENT REPORTS PER MONTH. THESE ARE SCREENED AND ANALYZED BY A TEAM OF EXPERIENCED PILOTS AND AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS. ** DATA ARE USED BY NASA TO CARRY OUT SAFETY RESEARCH FOR THE FAA; NAT. TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD; DEFENSE DEPT. ...** ASRS ALSO PRODUCES A MONTHLY SAFETY BULLETIN, CALLBACK, AVAILABLE TO ANYONE INTERESTED IN AIR SAFETY. ** K. ATCHISON HQ AND PETER WALLER AMES RES CENTR., MOUNTAIN VIEW, CA. **** *************************** FROM: NASA/NEWS SERVICE SUBJ: VEGA VENUS PROBES 1/21/85 MARKED THE FIRST TIME SIGNALS FROM SOVIET VENERA-HALLEY (VEGA) SPACE PROBES WERE RECEIVED AT A NASA TRACKING STATION. AS PART OF AN INTERNATIONAL TRACKING NETWORK ORGANIZED BY THE FRENCH SPC. AGENCY, THE CENTRE NATIONAL D'ETUDES SPATIALES (CNES), THE 210 FT ANTENNA LOCATED AT GOLDSTONE, CA., HOMED IN ON THE FAINT SIGNALS FROM TWO SPACECRAFTS LAUNCED FROM THE USSR IN DEC. AND CURRENTLY HEADED TO VENUS. ** VEGA-1 & 2 PROBES WILL STUDY VENUS AND HALLEYS'S COMET. EACH WILL DROP AND INSTRUMENT LADEN BALLOON INTO THE VENUS ATMOSPHERE IN JUNE '85. BOTH WILL ALSO DROP LANDERS TO STUDY THE VENUS ATMOSPHERE. THE GRAVITATIONAL FIELD WILL THEN BEND THE TRAJECTORIES ON A PRECISE COURSE FOR 1986 ENCOUNTERS WITH THE COMET. ** USING A RADIO ASTRONOMY TECHNIQUE KNOWN AS VERY LONG BASELINE INTERFEROMETRY (VLBI), THE BALLOONS VELOCITIES AND VENUS WIND VELOCITY WILL BE MEASURED. ** SCIENTISTS WILL BE STUDYING FLUCTUATIONS IN ATMOSPHERIC PHENOMENA TO LEARN MORE ABOUT WEATHER CIRCULATION ON VENUS. VENUS' CLOUD LAYERS ARE BELIEVED TO BE THE DRIVING GEAR OF THE PLANET'S MULTILAYERED WEATHER. VENUS' CLOUD TOPS CIRCLE THE PLANET AT THE AMAZING RATE OF ONCE EVERY 4 DAYS (250 MPH), WHILE THERE IS NEAR CALM ON THE SURFACE. OTHER PHENOMENA INCLUDE: ENERGY TRANSFER FROM THE LOWER TO UPPER ATMOSPHERE; CHEMISTRY OF THE CLOUDS; CHEMICAL CYCLES (WHERE THE SULFUR FOR THE SULFURIC ACID CLOUDS IS CYCLED UP FROM THE SURFACE). ** JIM KUKOWSKI HQ, FRANK BRISTOW JPL AND PETER WALLER AMES RES. CENTR. ************************* ********************************** FROM: NASA/NEWS SERVICE SUBJ: GRUMMAN FOR CLASS VI COMPUTER NASA ANNOUNCED THE SELECTION OF GRUMMAN DATA SYSTEMS CORP., BETHPAGE, N.Y., FOR NEGOTIATIONS LEADING TO THE AWARD OF A CONTRACT FOR A HIGH SPEED (CLASS VI) COMPUTER SYSTEM AT THE MARSHALL SPACE FLIGHT CENTER, HUNTSVILLE, ALA. ** THE FIRM-FIXED PRICE CONTRACT WILL REQUIRE GRUMMAN TO PROVIDE HARDWARE, SOFTWARE, DOCUMENTATION AND SERVICES REQUIRED TO DELIVER, INSTALL AND MAINTAIN AN ENGINEERING ANALYSIS AND DATA SYSTEM. ** THE SYSTEM WILL BE USED FOR SCIENTIFIC AND ENGINEERING COMPUTATIONS IN SUPPORT OF MARSHALL'S PROGRAMS WITH EMPHASIS ON ANALYSIS OF THERMAL, ELECTRICAL, LOADS AND STRUCTURAL DESIGN CHARACTERISTICS THAT INFLUENCE FLIGHT VEHICLE AND PAYLOAD PERFORMANCE. ** COST OF THE FIVE YEAR CONTRACT, WHICH BEGINS NO LATER THAN AUGUST, 1985, IS APPROXIAMTELY $42 MILLION. THE CONTRACT PROVIDES FOR A TOTAL LEASE PERIOD, WITH RENEWAL IN PERIODS OF ONE TO 12 MONTHS, NOT TO EXCEED 60 MONTHS. ** OTHER FIRMS SUBMITTING PROPOSALS FOR THE CONTRACT WERE: FALCON SYSTEMS, INC., BETHESDA, MD., AND SPERRY CORP., MCLEAN, VA. ** LEON PERRY HQ AND CARL JONES MARSHALL SPC. FLT. CENTR. **** *************************** FROM: NASA/NEWS SERVICE SUBJ: NSTL TEST STAND NASA HAS AWARDED A CONTRACT TO STEARNS CATALYTIC CORP. OF DENVER, CO. TO MODIFY A TEST STAND AT THE NATIONAL SPACE TECHNOLOGY LAB. IN HANCOCK, MISS. THE MODIFICATION TO THE B-2 STAND WILL GIVE NSTL A THIRD TEST POSITION TO STATIC FIRE SPACE SHUTTLE MAIN ENGINES INDIVIDUALLY. ** THE VALUE OF THE FIXED PRICE CONTRACT IS $2,374,800. THE STRUCTURAL MECHANICAL AND ELECTRICAL MODIFICATIONS WILL BEGIN NO LATER THAN MARCH 1985, AND ARE TO BE COMPLETED IN APPROXIMATELY ONE YR. ** SPACE SHUTTLE MAIN ENGINE TESTING HAS BEEN UNDER WAY AT NSTL SINCE JUNE 1975. THE A-1 AND A-2 TEST STANDS ARE USED FOR SINGLE ENGINE TESTING OF FLIGHT AND NON-FLIGHT ENGINES. THE B-2 TEST POSITION WAS MOST RECENTLY USED TO CERTIFY THE SHUTTLE'S MAIN PROPULSION SYSTEM IN A SERIES OF THREE ENGINE "CLUSTER" FIRINGS. THE STAND WAS ORIGINALLY USED IN THE 1960S TO FLIGHT CERTIFY THE FIRST STAGE OF THE APOLLO/SATURN V SPACE VEHICLE. THE MODIFICATION DESIGN ALLOWS THE B-2 TEST POSITION TO BE RETURNED TO THE CLUSTER CONFIGURATION IF NEEDED. ** THE ADDITIONAL TEST POSITION WILL SUPPORT PROJECTED INCREASES IN MAIN ENGINE TEST REQUIREMENTS, INCLUDING INCREASED TURBOPUMP PRODUCTION RATES. ** THE INITIAL USE OF THE B-2 POSITION WILL BE TO TEST NEW AND OVERHAULED ENGINE TURBOPUMPS USING A TESTBED ENGINE. ** OTHER BIDDING ON THE CONTRACT WERE: BENJAMIN F. SHAW CO., WILMINGTON, DEL.; ALGERNON BLAIR INDUSTRIAL CONTRACTORS, MONTGOMERY, ALA.; INDUSTRIAL CONTRACTORS INC., IDAHO FALLS, ID., COMBUSTION ENGINEERING INC., WINDSOR, CONN.; AND S & Q CORP., MORGAN HILL, CALIF. ** C. REDMOND HQ AND MARK HERRING NAT. SPACE TECHNOLOGY LAB, NSTL, MISS. *********************************** FROM: MARK FELTON SUBJ: RUSSIANS TALK FROM SPACE -> AFTER 237 DAYS ABOARD THE SALYUT 7 SPACE STATION- THE LONGEST SPACE FLIGHT IN HISTORY- THE THREE SOVIET COSMONAUTS HARDLY LOOKED AS THOUGH THEY BELONGED ON EARTH AT ALL. A REPORTER AT THE LANDING SITE WANTED TO KNOW HOW IT FELT TO BE HOME. "WE'RE HAPPY TO BACK WITH OUR FRIENDS ON EARTH," CAME THE ANSWER. "BUT WE ALREADY MISS THE STATION." -> "SPEAKING FRANKLY, I WAS NOT EXACTLY EAGER TO STEP INTO THE VOID. IT WAS SCARY. THE EARTH FLOATED BELOW AND THE SPEED OF THE MOVING STATION WAS VERY NOTICEABLE." RYUMIN. -> "WE ARE DOCKING. WE CHECK THE SEAL OF THE TRANSFER HATCH. WE TRY TO OPEN THE HATCH OF THE TRANSPORT VEHICLE, BUT ITS STUCK. UPSIDE DOWN, I BRACE MYSELF WITH MY FEET AGAINST THE FRAME (YOU CAN DO THIS IN SPACE) AND I RIP THE HATCH OPEN. WHEN I BOARD THE STATIONS, THE FIRST THING THAT STRIKES ME IS THAT I DON'T RECOGNIZE IT." TODAY WE HAVE A TELEVISION SESSION. WE WISHED TOLYA'S DAUGHTER A HAPPY BIRTHDAY. WE MADE A CAKE OUT OF BREAD. INSTEAD OF CANDLES WE USED FELT PENS AND FOR FLAMES WE USED FOIL...WE HUNG UP COLORED BALLOONS, RODE AROUND ON THE VACUUM CLEANER...-> THE FIRST SHOOTS CAME UP IN OUR GARDEN. WE PLANTED BORAGE, RADISHES AND CUCUMBERS... LEBEDEV -> ALL THE CHARMS OF WEIGHTLESSNESS MADE THEMSELVES APPARENT. OUR FACES BECAME SWOLLEN AND WERE DIFFICULT TO RECOGNIZE IN A MIRROR. MY HEAD SWAM AND I HAD A TINGE OF NAUSEA ... ANOTHER PROBLEM FACING US WAS WE HAD TO LEARN TO WORK TOGETHER AS A TEAM... IN THE ACTUAL FLIGHT, I WAS AFRAID OF APPENDICITIS...ALSO I WAS AFRAID OF GETTING A TOOTHACHE... WE ARE BEGINNING TO (REALLY) SEE THE EARTH... RYUMIN ** FROM DISCOVER MAGAZINE FEB. 1985 ** **************************** FROM: NASA/NEWS SERVICE SUBJ: MATERIALS PROCESSING NASA ANNOUNCED THE SIGNING OF A MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING WITH THE GRUMMAN CORP. FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF MATERIALS PROCESSING IN SPACE RESEARCH. ** "THIS AGREEMENT IS IN KEEPING WITH PRES. REAGAN'S REAFFIRMED COMMITMENT TO THE COMMERCIAL USE OF SPACE AND REPRESNTS GRUMMAN'S FIRST STEP TOWARDS BECOMING AN ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WIT NASA IN THE COMMERCIAL DEVELOPMENT OF SPACE," SAID ISAAC T. GILLAM I, ASST. ADM. FOR COMMERCIAL PROGRAMS, NASA HQ, WASH., DC. ** GRUMMAN WIL PURSUE EXPERIMENTS INVOLVING DIRECTIONAL SOLIDIFICATION OF GALLUM ARSENIDE AND OTHER SEMICONDUCTOR MATERIALS AND VARIOUS METALS AD ALLOYS. THE PROCESS IS APPLICABLE TO THE PRODUCTION OF SEMICONDUCTOR CRSTALS AND MAGNETS FOR ELECTRICAL MOTORS. UNDER THIS AGREEMENT, A PRELMINARY DOCUMENT, GRUMMAN'S WORK WILL FOCUS ON SEMICONDUCTOR MATERIALS.** DIRECTIONAL SOLIDIFICATION USES PRECISELY CONTROLLED TEMPERATURS TO MELT AND THEN SOLIDIFY A MATERIAL. DURING THE PROCESS, THE MATEIAL'S CRYSTALLINE STRUCTURE OR MOLECULAR ARRANGEMENT IS ALIGNED IN A ASHION THAT SHOULD VIRTUALLY ELIMINATE ANY IMPERFECTION IN THE COMPOUN. IMPORTANT IMPLICATIONS OF THE TECHNOLOGY IS THAT "FLAWLESS" SEMICONDUCTOR CRYSTALS WOULD YIELD A GREATER QUANTITY AND QUALIY OF MICROCIRCUIT CHIPS, LEADING TO HIGHER SPEED ELECTRONIC DEVICS THAT CONSUME LESS POWER, AND EVEN GREATER MINIATURIZATION. ** I AGREEMENT, BOTH NASA AND GRUMMAN PLEDGE SUPPORT OF THEIR MUTUAL INTERESTS IN MATERIALS PROCESSING THROUGH THE EXCHANGE OF INFORATION. FURTHER DISCUSSIONS SHOULD LEAD TO AGREEMENT LATER THIS YEAR REARDING SPECIFIC FLIGHT PLANS FOR GRUMMAN TO CONDUCT ITS MATERIALS PROCSSING EXPERIMENTS ABOARD THE SPACE SHUTTLE. ** AZEEZALY S. JAFFER HQ ** **************************** FROM: NASA/NEWS SERVICE SUBJ: TRACKING ANTENNA DONATED NASA ANNOUNCED THAT IT IS DONATING A 26 METER ANTENNA LOCATED AT THE ORRORAL VALLEY TRACKING STATION IN AUSTRALIA TO THE AUSTRALIAN UNIVERSITY OF TASMANIA. THE ORRORAL VALLEY STATION CEASED OPERATIONS IN DECEMBER 1984. ** THE ANTENNA HAD BEEN USED IN A VARIETY OF NASA AND INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMS INCLUDING THE SKYLAB PROGRAM, THE APOLLO SOYUZ TEST PROJECT AND THE SPACE SHUTTLE PROGRAM. ** NASA HAS OFFERED TO PROVIDE ASSISTANCE FOR THE DISMANTLING AND TRANSFER OF THE ANTENNA TO HOBART, TASMANIA, AUSTRALIA. ** THE UNIVERSITY OF TASMANIA'S PHYSICS DEPARTMENT, ONE OF AUSTRALIA'S MAJOR CENTERS FOR ASTRONOMY AND ASTROPHYSICS, WILL USE THE ANTENNA AS PART OF ITS TEACHING AND RESEARCH ACTIVITIES. ONE OF THE PLANNED USES FOR THE ANTENNA IS IN OPERATION WITH THE AUSTRALIAN TELESCOPE PRESENTLY UNDER CONSTRUCTION IN NEW SOUTH WALES. THIS APPLICATION WILL DRAMATICALLY IMPROVE THE TELESCOPES PERFORMANCE. ** THE ANTENNA ALSO WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR VERY LONG BASELINE INTERFEROMETRY IN CONJUNCTION WITH OTHER INSTRUMENTS. THIS IS A SYSTEM WHICH USES A NUMBER OF SEPARATE ANTENNAS TO CONSTRUCT A RADIO TELESCOPE WITH A HIGH RESOLUTION CAPABILITY. USING THE ANTENNA FOR INTERFEROMETRY WILL ASSIST GEODYNAMICS AND GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH BY OBTAINING MORE ACCURATE MEASUREMENTS OF THE EARTH'S SURFACE AND WILL CONTRIBUTE TO THE DATA BASE ON THE AUSTRALIAN CONTINENT. ** NASA MAY USE THE ANTENNA FOR ITS GEODESY, GEODYNAMICS AND ASTRONOMY PROJECTS IN THE FUTURE. ** KEN ATCHISON HQ ** ******************************** FROM: NASA/NEWS SERVICE SUBJ: FUTURISTIC GAS TURBINE ENGINE A NEW AND REVOLUTIONARY "CONVERTIBLE" GAS TURBINE ENGINE CONCEPT THAT WILL ENABLE FUTURE ROTORCRAFT TO OPERATE EITHER AS A ROTARY OR FIXED WING AIRCRAFT, CAPABLE OF ATTAINING SPEEDS EQUIVALLENT TO TODAY'S FAST COMMERCIAL TRANSPORTS, HAS BEEN DEMONSTRATED SUCCESSFULLY AT NASA'S LEWIS RESEARCH CENTER, CLEVELAND. ** THIS NEW CONVERTIBLE ENGINE CONCEPT CAN OPERATE IN EITHER TURBOSHAFT MODE OR TURBOFAN MODE OR IN BOTH MODES SIMULTANEOUSLY. ** THE DEMONSTRATION IS PART OF A JOINT PROGRAM BEING CONDUCTED BY NASA AND THE DEFENSE ADVANCED RESEARCH PROJECTS AGENCY (DARPA). THE ENGINE, A MODIFIED TF-34, WAS MODIFIED UNDER CONTRACT WITH THE GENERAL ELECTRIC CO. ** FUTURE X-WING (FOUR BLADED) ROTORCRAFT WITH SUCH AN ENGINE WILL HAVE SHAFT POWER TO DRIVE ROTOR BLADES ALLOWINT IT TO TAKE OFF VERTICALLY. AFTER REACHING THE NECESSARY CONVERSION SPEED, NEAR 200 KNOTS, THE TRANSMISSION OF THE ROTORCRAFT WILL BE DISENGAGED AND THE ROTOR BLADES WILL BE LOCKED IN AN "X" CONFIGURATION TO PROVIDE WING LIFT AS A FIXED WING AIRCRAFT. IN 15 TO 20 SECONDS, THE ENGINE WILL CONVERT FROM SHAT TO FAN MODE TO POWER THE CRAFT AT SPEEDS NEAR .8 MACH. LANDING WILL BE ACCOMPLISHED AS A ROTORCRAFT AFTER REVERSING THE CONVERSION PROCESS. ** THE CONVERSION WAS COMPLETED WITHIN 18 SEC. THE ENGINE RESPONDED AS PREDICTED THROUGHOUT THE CONVERSION. ** THESE TESTS REPRESENT THE FIRST SUCCESSFUL OPERATION OF A 5000 HP CLASS CONVERTIBLE ENGINE IN BOTH FAN AND SHAFT MODES AND THE FIRST DUAL MODE OPERATION FOR AN ENGINE. THE CONVERTIBLE ENGINE WILL MAKE POSSIBLE A NEW BREED OF CIVIL AND MILITARY HIGH SPEED ROTORCRAFT THAT CAN OPERATE FROM HOVER TO TRANSONIC SPEEDS. ** KEN ATCHISON HQ ** ****************************** FROM: NASA/NEWS SERVICE SUBJ: UPPER ATMOSPHERE RESEARCH SATELLITE NASA AWARDED A $145.8 MILLION CONTRACT TO G.E. CO.'S VALLEY FORGE SPACE CENTER, PHILA, FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE UPPER ATMOSPHERE RESEARCH SATELLITE (UARS) OBSERVATORY. * THE UARS WILL CARRY 10 SCIENTIFIC INSTRUMENTS INTO A 373 MI CIRCULAR ORBIT AFTER DEPLOYMENT FROM THE SPACE SHUTTLE. LAUNCH IS SCHEDULED FOR OCT. 1989. * WITH REMOTE SENSING INSTRUMENTS PROVIDING ESSENTIALLY GLOBAL COVERAGE, THE UARS, FOR THE FIRST TIME, WILL PROVIDE THE DATA NECESSARY TO UNDERSTAND THE COMPOSITION AND DYNAMICS OF THE UPPER ATMOSPHERE. * AS AN EXAMPLE, UARS WILL PROVIDE A HERETOFORE UNAVAILABLE INSIGHT INTO THE NATURE OF THE NATURAL AND HUMAN EFFECTS ON OZONE, A GASEOUS FORM OF OXYGEN WHICH PROTECTS US FROM THE HARMFUL UV RAYS OF THE SUN. OZONE IS FOUND IN THE STRATOSPHERE, A DELICATE LAYER OF THE ATMOSPHERE SURROUNDING THE EARTH AT A DISTANCE OF FROM 9-31 MI. * UNDER THE TERMS OF THE CONTRACT, THE VALLEY FORGE SPACE CENTER WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR: DESIGN OF THE OBSERVATORY SYSTEM; DESIGN AND FABRICATION OF AN INSTRUMENT MODULE COMPATIBLE WITH THE NASA STANDARD MULTIMISSION MODULAR SPACECRAFT (MMS); INTEGRATION OF THE INSTRUMENT MODULE WITH THE MMS AND THE FLIGHT INSTRUMENTS; OVERALL ENVIRONMENTAL TESTING OF THE OBSERVATORY SYSTEM; INTEGRATION OF THE OBSERVATORY INTO THE SPACE SHUTTLE; POST LAUNCH FLIGHT OPERATIONS SUPPORT.. THE CONTRACT IS OF THE COST PLUS AWARD FEE TYPE. ALL WORK REQUIRED UNDER THE CONTRACT WILL BE PERFORMED AT THE VALLEY FORGE SPACE CENTER IN PHILADELPHIA. * NASA GODDARD SPC FLT CENTR WILL PROVIDE PROJECT MANAGEMENT... * J.KUKOWSKI HQ & CARTER DOVE GODDARD SPC FLT CENTR. *** ******************************* FROM: NASA/NEWS SERVICE SUBJ: X-RAY ASTROPHYSICS FACILITY NASA ANNOUNCED THE SELECTION OF SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATIONS TO BE IMPLEMENTED ON THE PROPOSED ADVANCED X-RAY ASTROPHYSICS FACILITY (AXAF). * AXAF WILL BE A LONG LIVED X-RAY OBSERVATORY THAT WILL OPERATE IN LOW EARTH ORBIT FOR AT LEAST 15 YEARS. THE BASIC OBSERVATORY CONSISTS OF A 1.2 METER DIAM, 10-M FOCAL LTH X-RAY TELESCOPE HOUSE WITHIN A SPACECRAFT CARRYING AN ARRAY OF SELECTED INSTRUMENTS AND PROVIDING POWER, PRECISE POINTING AND DATA TRANSMISSION. AXAF WILL MAKE DETAILED OBSERVATIONS OF THE X-RAY EMISSIONS FROM COSMIC SOURCES RANGING FROM NEARBY STARS TO DISTANT QUASARS. * CONSTRUCTION OF AXAF COULD BEGIN AS EARLY AS 1987-8 WITH LAUNCH APPROX 5 YRS LATER. IN ORBIT, AXAF WILL JOIN THE HUBBLE SPACE TELESCOPE, TO BE LAUNCHED IN 1986 AND THE GAMMA RAY OBSERVATORY LAUNCH IN '88. THESE PLUS THE LATER LAUNCH OF THE SPACE INFRARED TELESCOPE FACILITY, WILL PROVIDE SIMULTANEOUS OBSERVATIONS OF COSMIC SOURCES OVER INFRARED, VISABLE, UV, X-RAY AND GAMMA RAY. * INVESTIGATOR-> DR.G.GARMIRE PENN ST. U. CHARGED COUPLED DEVICE IMAGING SPECTROSCOPY. DR.S.MURRAY SMITHSONIAN ASTROPHYSICAL OBSERVATORY HIGH RESOLUTION CAMERA DR.S.HOLT GODDARD SFC X-RAY SPECTROSCOPY INVESTIGATION FOR AXAF DR.C.CANIZARES MIT HIGH RESOLUTION X-RAY SPECTROSCOPY DR.A. BRINKMAN U.OF UTRECHT, NETHERLANDS HIGH THROUGHPUT TRANSMISSION GRATING FOR COSMIC X-RAY SPECTROSCOPY.. DR.R.GIACCONI SPACE TELESCOPE SCI INST ADVANCE X-RAY DR.J.LINSKY NBS CORONAL STRUCTURE OF COOL STARS... DR.R.MUSHOTZKY, GSFC MASS OF GALAXIES... DR.A.WILSON U.OF MD. RADIO JETS AND NARROW LINE REGIONS ... DR.A.FABIAN CAMBRIDGE COOLING FLOWS... * L.PERRY HQ ** ******************************************* FROM: NASA/NEWS SERVICE SUBJ: SUPERCOMPUTER NASA'S AMES RES. CENTR. WILL HOST A GRND BREAKING CEREMONY MARCH 14 FOR THE NUMERICAL AERODYNAMICS SIMULATION (NAS) FACILLITY BLDG., TO HOUSE THE WORLD'S MOST POWERFUL SUPERCOMPUTER SYSTEM. * HIGH SPEED SUPER COMPUTERS WILL BE USED TO SOLVE COMPLEX AERODYNAMICS EQUATIONS - FLUID PHYSICS AND LARGE SCALE AERODYNAMIC FLOWS ASSOCIATED WITH AIRCRAFT FLYING IN THE EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE. THE NAS WILL REDUCE TIME AND COST FOR DEVELOPING NEW AIRCRAFTS. * ANOTHER IMPORTANT GOAL IS TO MAKE THE SUPERCOMPUTER NETWORK AVAILABLE TO REMOTE USERS NATIONWIDE. OFF SITE SCIENTISTS WILL GAIN ACCESS TO THE SYSTEM BY SATELLITE. OTHER RESEARCH TO BE SUPPORTED BY NAS INCLUDES COMPUTATIONAL MATERIALS AND STRUCTURES, WEATHER PREDICTIONS, COMPUTATIONAL CHEMISTRY, GENETIC ENGINEERING AND COMPUTATIONAL ASTROPHYSICS. * CRAY RESEARCH'S CRAY 2 SUPERCOMPUTERS, WITH AN EXPECTED OPERATING SPEED OF 250 MILLION CALCULATIONS PER SECOND, IS ONE OF THE FASTEST COMPUTERS IN THE WORLD AND WILL BE THE HEART OF THE INITIAL NAS NETWORK EXPECTED TO BE OPERATIONAL IN 1986. FASTER SUPERCOMPUTERS WILL BE INCORPORATED AS THEY BECOME AVAILABLE. * NAS IS PLANNED TO CREATE A PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN PEOPLE AND MACHINES THAT WILL ADVANCE COMPUTER SIMULATION. * THE 90,500 ARCHITECTS, SAN FRANCISCO. THE CONTRACTOR IS PERINI CO., SAN FRANCISCO. ** KEN ATCHISON HQ AND PETER WALLER/ ROBERTA FRIEDMAN AMES RESEACH CENTER, MOUNTAIN VIEW, CALIFORNIA. ******************: FROM: CRASH!USIIDEN!MARKF@NOSC OR CONTACT ON INTERCOMEX BULLETIN BOARD (303)-3671935 DENVER ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #172 ******************* 29-May-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #173 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest $Volume 5 : Issue 173 Today's Topics: Mini-series Progress of Shuttle Atlantis GENERAL SPACE INFORMATION ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 May 1985 08:29:28-EDT From: rachiele@NADC To: space-enthusiasts@mit-mc Subject: Mini-series I thought it should have been called "spice". -:) Jim ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 May 85 19:17 PDT From: TERRY%LAJ.SAINET.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Progress of Shuttle Atlantis To: SPACE-ENTHUSIASTS@MIT-MC.ARPA A previous message said that Discovery was being moved to the VAB and Atlantis was being moved to the OFP in preparation for its maiden flight. Now, VAB stands for Vertical Assembly Building, unless the acronym has changed since I knew it last; but I never heard of OFP before. Can anyone explain what it is? AdTHANKSvance. ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 28 May 85 21:28:19 PDT To: crash!noscvax!space@mit-mc Subject: GENERAL SPACE INFORMATION The following are reports from the Intercomex Bulletin Board (303)-367-1935 * Reports are edited to provide easier computer readability, but content integrity is maintained. FROM: NASA/NEWS SERVICE SUBJ: SUPERCOMPUTER PLANNED NASA'S AMES RES. CENTR. WILL HOST A GRND BREAKING CEREMONY MARCH 14 FOR THE NUMERICAL AERODYNAMICS SIMULATION (NAS) FACILITY BLDG., TO HOUSE THE WORLD'S MOST POWERFUL SUPERCOMPUTER SYSTEM. * HIGH SPEED SUPER COMPUTERS WILL BE USED TO SOLVE COMPLEX AERODYNAMICS EQUATIONS - FLUID PHYSIC S AND LARGE SCALE AERODYNAMIC FLOWS ASSOCIATED WITH AIRCRAFT FLYING IN THE EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE. THE NAS WILL REDUCE TIME AND COST FOR DEVELOPING NEW AIRCRAFTS. * ANOTHER IMPORTANT GOAL IS TO MAKE THE SUPERCOMPUTER NETWORK AVAILABLE TO REMOTE USERS NATIONWIDE. OFF SITE SCIENTISTS W ILL GAIN ACCESS TO THE SYSTEM BY SATELLITE. OTHER RESEARCH TO B E SUPPORTED BY NAS INCLUDES COMPUTATIONAL MATERIALS AND STRUCTURES, WEATHER PREDICTIONS, COMPUTATIONAL CHEMISTRY, GENETIC ENGINEERING AND COMPUTATIONAL ASTROPHYSICS. * CRAY RESEARCH'S CRAY 2 SUPERCOMPUTERS, WITH AN EXPECTED OPERATIN G SPEED OF 250 MILLION CALCULATIONS PER SECOND, IS ONE OF THE FASTEST COMPUTERS IN THE WORLD AND WILL BE THE HEART OF THE INITIAL NAS NETWORK EXPECTED TO BE OPERATIONAL IN 1986. FAS TER SUPERCOMPUTERS WILL BE INCORPORATED AS THEY BECOME AVAILABL E. * NAS IS PLANNED TO CREATE A PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN PEOPLE AND MACHINES THAT WILL ADVANCE COMPUTER SIMULATION. * THE 90,50 0 SQ FT CONCRETE NAS BUILDING WAS DESIGNED BY HUNT AND CO., ARCHITECTS, SAN FRANCISCO. THE CONTRACTOR IS PERINI CO., SA N FRANCISCO. ** KEN ATCHISON HQ AND PETER WALLER/ ROBERTA FRIEDMAN AMES RESEACH CENTER, MOUNTAIN VIEW, CALIFORNIA. ******************: FROM: NASA/NEWS SERVICE SUBJ: SPACE STATION NASA SELECTED 6 INDUSTRY TEAMS FOR NEGOTIATIONS LEADING TO FIXED PRICE CONTRACTS FOR DEFINITION & PRELIMINARY DESIGN O F ELEMENTS OF A PERMANENTLY MANNED SPACE STATION TO BE OPERATIONAL IN MID 1990'S. * NASA CENTERS SELECTED ARE: => MARSHALL SFC - HUNTSVILLE, ALA; BOEING AEROSPACE, SEATTL E AND MARTIN MARRIETTA, DENVER => GODDARD SFC, GREENBELT, MD. ; RCA ASTRO ELECTRONICS, PRINCETON, N.J.; AND GE, SPACE SYSTE M DIV, PHILA, PA => LEWIS RESEARCH CNTR, CLEVE, OHIO; ROCKWEL L INTL, ROCKETDYNE DIV., CANOGA PARK, CALIF; AND TRW FED. SYS . DIV., REDONDO BEACH, CALIF. * IN ADDITION ARE NEGOTIATIONS WITH LOCKHEED MISSILES & SPACE; MCDONNELL DOUGLAS ASTRONAUTICS & ROCKWELL INTL FOR WORK TO BE PERFORMED UNDER JOHNSON SPC CENTER, HOUSTON. * APPROX CONTR ACT VALUES IM MILLIONS..$24 MARSHALL; $27 JOHNSON; $10 GODDARD; $6 LEWIS. * WORK TO INCLUDE DEFINITION AND PRELIMINARY DESIGN: MARSHALL- PRESSURIZED "COMMON MODULES" FOR USE AS LABS, LIVING AREAS AND LOGISTIC TRANSPORT; ENVIRONMENTAL CONTROL AND PROPULSIVE SYSTEMS; ORBITAL MANEUVERING AND TRANSPORT... JOHNSON- STRUCTURAL FRAMEWORK TO WHICH ELEMENTS OF THE STATION WILL BE ATTATCHE D; STATION TO SHUTTLE INTERFACE; MECHANISMS SUCH AS REMOTE MANIPULATOR; ATTITUDE, THERMAL CONTROL, COMMUNICATIONS, DAT A MANAGEMENT; SLEEPING QUARTERS, WARD ROOM AND GALLEY; EXTRAVEHICULAR ACTIVITY. LEWIS- ELECTRICAL, POWER GENERATION, CONDITIONING AND STORAGE. * OVERALL RESPONSIBILITY WILL BE NASA JOHNSON SPACE CENTER. * STATION PLAN- LOW EARTH ORBIT, ABOUT 300 MI HIGH, INCLINATI ON 28.5 DEG, 75 KW POWER, SUPPORTING A CREW OF 6-8. * LAUNCH A ND SUBSEQUENT TRANSPORTATION PROVIDED BY THE SPACE SHUTTLE. * INTERNATIONAL TO INCLUDE THE EUROPEAN SPACE AGENCY, CANADA AND JAPAN. ** BILL O'DONNELL HQ ******************************************* from Mark Felton ******************************************* CRASH!USIIDEN!MARKF@NOSC ************** ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #173 ******************* 30-May-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #174 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 174 Today's Topics: Re: more NERVA How to Receive NASA Ed. Pub. #197 SPACE Digest V5 #169 NASA funding ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 May 85 10:41:36 EDT (Wednesday) From: Heiny.henr@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: more NERVA To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA, Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS.ARPA cc: Heiny.henr@Xerox.ARPA Um, SSME? SEPS? Not all of us can speak fluent acronym. Could you enlighten me as to what these mean? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 May 85 05:54:51 PDT From: Kit Weinrichter To: SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: How to Receive NASA Ed. Pub. #197 Jack Hagerty asked how he could get a copy of NASA's Educational Publication #197. All you have to do is call NASA Audio Visual at (415) 694-6270 and ask them to send you this publication. They told me that it would take probably 2 weeks. Kit To: SPACE@MIT-MC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 May 1985 17:08 EDT From: MINSKY%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC Cc: SPACE@MIT-MC Subject: SPACE Digest V5 #169 The usual idea for a laser-launcher is somehow to use the sunlight from a nearby star to power the system, so the energy cost is zero, and the hardware cost is the one that matters. ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 85 23:27:01 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: NASA funding To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A The 50% figure I quoted earlier for the aeronautics portion of NASA's budget was quoted from a lecture Bonnie Dunbar (Astronaut) gave in this area awhile back. The piechart slide was NASA made, so if this is not the case, then there was some misrepresentation or error in the creation of the original slide by the NASA PR dept. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #174 ******************* 31-May-85 0352 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #175 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 175 Today's Topics: Matter/Antimatter drive Re: Matter/Antimatter drive Strange launch, and stranger announcements Re: Money to burn ultralight probes Re: ultralight probes Re: cheap interstellar probes Throwing mass away in orbit Re: ultralight probes Re: Money to burn Re: Interstellar probes Landings Set For EAFB Re: cheap interstellar probes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu 30 May 85 10:49:20-EDT From: Anthony J. Courtemanche Subject: Matter/Antimatter drive To: space-enthusiasts@MIT-MC Reply-To: to ac%mit-oz@mit-mc.arpa On the last episode of PBS's Space Flight last night, some futurist said that in order to make a resonable flight to another star, we would need the technology for a matter/anitmatter drive, which I think he indicated would be available within the next 100 to 200 years. Could someone who understands particle physics please explain what the idea is behind a matter/antimatter drive. Specifically, what does it take to make the antimatter and how would one turn the energy from a matter/anitmatter explosion into thrust? Do you need Scotty to channel the power through Dilithium crystals? --Anthony J. Courtemanche ac%mit-oz@mit-mc.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 85 10:19:42 pdt From: Rick McGeer To: AC%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Re: Matter/Antimatter drive Cc: space@mit-mc.ARPA A collision of a particle with its antiparticle (say an electron with a positron) produces two photons, with energy equal to the relativistic kinetic energy of the particles, travelling on vectors normal to the vectors of the particles. Thrust comes from the light pressure of the photons. As for manufacturing antimatter, we do it *now*. Positron Emission Tomography (PET) works by shooting positrons and electrons into the material you want to photograph. Rick. ------------------------------ From: Dave Gehrt Date: 30 May 1985 1027-PDT (Thursday) To: SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Strange launch, and stranger announcements I was at the Riverside Telescope Makers Conference at Big Bear (in the mountains above San Bernardino, CA) over the Memorial Day weekend, and Saturday evening witnessed a fairly spectacular rocket multiple launch from some location to the west. There were about 1300 witnesses at this one location, so I am reasonably confident that many telescopes ended up being trained on this display. What I observed was what appeared to be two vehicles launched just at dusk, about 1 minute apart. I followed the vehicles with the naked eye at first. I then switched to telescopic observation of the first vehicle launched and followed it until it appeared as a bright pinpoint of light headed in a southerly direction, whereupon I lost it behind a tree. Other observers said that the second vehicle staged, and then disappeared (range safety problem?). In the following days announcements were made that (a) there was no launch (b) it was a tactical missle launch (singular). Also, the origin was variously attributed to VAFB, and Pt. Mugu. Does anyone know what we all saw? I have to say that it was the most beautiful fireworks display I have ever witnessed. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!hao!hplabs!pesnta!lsuc!utcs!utzoo!henry From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Money to burn Date: 26 May 85 00:22:29 GMT Organization: U of Toronto Zoology > PS "It can't be done" is not an acceptable answer!!! It is probably the only answer right now! The BIS Daedalus study concluded that a less-demanding mission (15% of c rather than 20%, with encounter taking place at full interstellar velocity rather than after deceleration to 5% of c) was possible given the following improvements on today's technology: 1. He3-D fusion engine. 2. Propellant collection from the atmosphere of Jupiter (there is no other good source of He3!) 3. Advanced self-maintaining computers with software that could plan and conduct the final encounter without any help from humans. The Daedalus probe weighed something like 40000 tons at launch, by the way. You won't fit that in one shuttle load! More specifically... > 1. Assume only near term technology and assets. For example, no > space station. You are allowed two shuttle payloads if necessary - doing > it in one gets bonus points. The major problem, as you point out elsewhere, is propulsion. With the current and foreseeable technology, this means mass... lots of it. The BIS study, assuming better-than-current technology, still had a total-to- payload mass ratio of about 100:1. Two shuttle payloads just will not hack it to get a substantial payload to the stars. Note that one shuttle payload is just sufficient to get the Galileo probe to Jupiter! > 2. Must be ready to launch within 5 years. NASA cannot launch *any* major mission that quickly. NASA knew how to launch a space station nearly 20 years ago; the Skylab technology is that old. The ETA for the space station was ten years, and is already slipping further into the future. Personally I think a space station could be launched almost at once if the project was headed by some nasty person who was authorized to bypass NASA bureaucracy and normal purchasing procedures, with a firm objective of getting hardware flying ASAP rather than maximum sophistication and gosh-wow factor, but one might as well wish for wings. > 3. Assume a target star 20 light years away. The BIS assumed Barnard's Star, 8 LY away, and found it hard. > 4. Intial data must be received from target star system within 100 > years. At 20 LY, this gives 20% of c. The BIS set this as their original goal, but found it so hard that they slipped the specs to 15%. More significant was their rationale for the original speed: getting results within 40 years provides continuity within a human lifetime, because people who were young staff members at launch time get to see the results come in. This is psychologically important to both the staff and the people who vote on the funding. > An interesting question is what collection strategy to use. You could > adopt a cometary orbit or try to look for planetary body etc. Minimum > requirement is a fly-through at less then .05C mean. The propulsion requirements are so fierce that even the BIS very quickly opted for an undecelerated flyby as the only feasible mission. > Remember that your > communications lines have a 40 year turnaround. This means that for all practical purposes the mission must be 100% automatic; there is no realistic prospect of ground control. We are not really up to that unless you are willing to be quite unfussy about the nature of the flyby. Don't forget that communication over distances of 20 LY is very hard. You will need plenty of power, which is a problem in itself. There is *no* self-contained power source now existing that will give useful output after 100 years. > 5. Maximum cost will be 1 billion in current dollars. It may be > competing in Congress with a submarine base in Arizona so the cheaper > the better. NASA probably cannot launch anything anywhere near so ambitious for this kind of money. The Viking mission cost over $1e9, as I recall, and that was a couple of orders of magnitude less fancy. (It was also paid for in early-70's dollars.) Again, I suspect serious cost reductions if radically different management approaches were adopted, but the vastly greater mission complexity more than cancels those gains. > 6. Worship the KISS principle. This thing has to go a long way on > it own. Probably too long a way. Self-repair is almost certainly needed, and that kills simplicity right off the bat. Remember that NASA cannot spend lots of money on a mission that has a good chance of failing; they can't bet unless it's nearly a sure thing, politics being what they are. If one were willing to accept a high chance of failure (i.e. launch several to have a reasonable chance of useful return), I suspect one could dispense with self-repair, given limited objectives for encounter observations. The odds of keeping a fusion rocket engine, or the equivalent, operational for that long without on-board maintenance would also seem minimal, so deceleration is out for yet another reason. Some of the stiffest life requirements in the world are those of the phone companies; they only specify a 40-year life, and this assumes human maintenance. Sorry to be so negative, but it really is a fiercely hard problem. The BIS was optimistic about our ability to solve it (without some of the constraints you impose) before too long. I am actually more optimistic than they were, because the propulsion assumptions they made are now sounding a bit conservative in some ways. For example, Robert Forward says that antimatter propulsion requires no serious breakthroughs and could be a cost-effective alternative to H2-O2 for in-space propulsion (note that lifting quantities of H2-O2 from the ground is expensive) very soon. But I don't think "5 years" and "2 shuttle payloads" are viable constraints right now. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!hao!hplabs!pesnta!lsuc!utcs!utzoo!henry From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: ultralight probes Date: 26 May 85 01:06:15 GMT Organization: U of Toronto Zoology In response to Jim Houser's query for ideas about a near-term interstellar probe (which I've unfortunately had to shoot down in a separate article)... Here is another interesting notion which is a bit closer to reality, and which could use some ideas. The highest-performing solar sails that we know how to build are Eric Drexler's aluminum sails. His "baseline" design is 10 km across and has high performance with a 20-ton payload. Building a 10-km object in space (Drexler sails are rigid and cannot be folded for launch) is a bit on the ambitious side just yet, especially since air-drag problems may rule out construction in the very low orbits that give maximum shuttle payload. Consider a scaled-down version: 100 m across, hauling a payload of 2 kg. Obviously this cannot be manned, but it could still be very useful for comet rendezvous missions, surveying the asteriod belt for resources, etc. The big question is, can we build a complete control and communications system, with useful instruments, within 2 kg?? Some weight growth is acceptable, although it can't be an order of magnitude or performance will suffer. (The 100-m sail weighs only 2 kg itself, so a 20-kg load would be a huge increase in total vehicle mass.) Long life and near-total absence of moving parts are major virtues, since this thing will spend a long time in space. (Some of this might even be relevant to Houser's proposal...) Power and communications will obviously be major issues. Solar cells are the obvious choice for power, but very lightweight construction will be vital. Can we get away with a rigidly-mounted solar array, bearing in mind that the sail constrains the sun angle substantially? Communications will probably require a steerable antenna, alas. Would optical communication be better? Basic control will probably be by tiny winches on the sail shrouds, which will have the net effect of shifting the payload's position with respect to the sail. Is this sufficient? Note that the sail spins slowly to maintain its rigidity; can clever design of communications, guidance sensors, and instrumentation avoid the need for a despun platform? If not, perhaps the spinning and despun sections should have independent solar arrays and computer systems, communicating optically, to avoid the reliability problems of carrying power through rotating bearings. Substantial onboard computing is needed, since this vehicle is "under power" at all times, albeit at very low acceleration. Speed-of-light lags impose the usual limitations on human intervention. Close approaches to asteroids would be particular tricky. Can we get radiation-resistant chips with enough computing power and sufficiently-low current drain? What sort of instrumentation would be practical? Imaging is obviously a high priority. We could use the sail spin for one dimension of scan, although this will mean slow imaging because the sail spin isn't quick. Limited communications power may impose serious constraints on imaging data rates anyway. How much steerability do we need for useful imaging? Filter wheels are troublesome; can we get away with multiple image sensors with fixed filters? If we do use an ordinary 2-dimensional imaging sensor, what about a pattern of filter stripes across the image? Obviously navigation wants a sun sensor; can the imaging system be used for this? If not, can it at least be used for the rest of the guidance requirements? Note that real-time attitude control requires on-board interpretation of sensor data. Can we measure micrometeoroid density by measuring perforations of the sail? The resulting "collecting area" is orders of magnitude larger than anything we can do with a separate sensor, but scanning it for small perforations isn't trivial. If we use optical communications via solid-state laser, could the communications system's laser and receiver be used to scan the sail? Solid-state radiation sensors are an obvious possibility. How detailed can we make their data return within severe weight constraints? Can we get enough sensitivity for things like gamma-ray spectrometry, to examine asteroids and comets for volatiles? Ideas welcome... -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!rochester!sher From: rochester!sher (David Sher) Subject: Re: ultralight probes Date: 27 May 85 14:17:05 GMT Reply-To: sher@rochester.UUCP (David Sher) Organization: U. of Rochester, CS Dept. Keywords: light sail photoelectric Summary: Building a lightsail out of photo electric material In response to the article on the possibility an ultra-light space probe moved by a light sail, has anyone considered the possibility of building a lightsail out of photo-electric material? I know that thin film processes are already well advanced (as shown by the common light powered pocket calculator). I suspect that a light-sail can be made out of anything (except neutronium :-) as long as its thin. This would solve the problem of a power source for the probe, a few thousand square meters is probably sufficient power collection area for most purposes. It might just be possible to use the ion bombardment as a power source since that should cause a charge differential between a lighted and shaded object in space. The main problem would be grounding and the behavior of circuitry in highly charged environments. The max efficiency loss due to photoelectric effect on a light sail is 50%. Enuf thoughts, any comments? -David ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!ihuxl!dcn From: ihuxl!dcn (Dave Newkirk) Subject: Re: cheap interstellar probes Date: 28 May 85 12:49:40 GMT Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories > From: redford%avoid.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford) > > Hmmm, what could we do to make a cheap interstellar probe? The parameters > proposed were that the probe has to report back within a hundred years > from a star no more than 20 light years away. That seems a long way away. ... > John Redford > DEC-Hudson A cheaper way might be a simple ion drive. A mix of solar and nuclear power to provide electricity, and a cheap fuel source that can be ionized. It's not a big thrust, but it can be maintained for long periods, building up impressive speeds. I also think you gave up too soon on the laser-driven light sails. For more ideas on this, see Robert Forward's new book "Dragonfly". Remember, solar energy is cheap and plentiful in the inner solar system. -- Dave Newkirk, ihnp4!ihuxl!dcn ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dvinci!fisher From: fisher@dvinci.DEC Subject: Throwing mass away in orbit Date: 28 May 85 15:34:35 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: DEC Engineering Network <> Regarding the question of throwing mass and meeting again in one orbit: Remember that if you change velocity at a certain point in your orbit, that changes the height of your orbit the most at the opposite side, and the least at the point where you changed velocity. Example: If you fire a rocket at perigee, it affects your apogee, but your perigee remains the same. That means that yes, the astronaut would meet the ORBIT of the mass s/he threw in one orbital period, but the mass would not necessarily be there at the same time. It would probably be a LONG time before both the time and place were the same for both the mass and the astronaut. Burns UUCP: ... {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dvinci!fisher ARPA: fisher%dvinci.dec@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!dartvax!chuck From: dartvax!chuck (Chuck Simmons) Subject: Re: ultralight probes Date: 29 May 85 02:57:37 GMT Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH > In response to the article on the possibility an ultra-light space probe moved > by a light sail, has anyone considerred the possibility of building > a lightsail out of photo-electric material? I know that thin film > processes are already well advanced (as shown by the common light > powered pocket calculator). I suspect that a light-sail can be made > out of anything (except neutronium :-) as long as its thin. I imagine that aluminum has three big advantages: (1) aluminum atoms are very light; (2) aluminum is highly reflective; (3) it is relatively easy to make relatively thin (and therefore light) sheets of aluminum. One approach that interests me: would it be possible to "grow your own"? Would it be possible to design a "fabric" consisting of carbon or silicon atoms with various other kinds of atoms in between. The result would be a molecule (in much the same way that a polymer is a molecule, except in two dimensions) a few atoms thick. A well-designed fabric might contain many itty-bitty holes, thus decreasing the density even further. *sigh* Maybe if I don't think about the problem of making a square sheet of this fabric measuring a kilometer on a side, it will go away. -- Chuck ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!hao!ames!eugene From: ames!eugene (Eugene Miya) Subject: Re: Money to burn Date: 30 May 85 01:08:20 GMT Organization: NASA-Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA > > Assume for a moment that we were not in bugetary hard times and could > > afford an attack of conspicuous consumption. Could a reasonable > > interstellar > > one-way unmanned probe mission be designed which would give some legitimate Unmanned missions with the exception of Voyager have not caught the imaginations of men. Voyager did so only because of the timing of events such as Cosmos, KCET's telecast Voyager coverage, and the diversity of the photos returned by Voyager. You could probably assemble a set of questions like "what planets have we landed" which would measure the impact of these missions and find lots of confusion. Another problem with earlier missions was that many photos returned like Mariner Mercury, early Mars pictures, and so on had cratered surfaces looking like the moon. This is hard to excite the brain. "If you've seen one moon-like planet, you've seen them all?" > > 2. Must be ready to launch within 5 years. > > Not a prayer. Almost nothing gets launched within 5 years of conception, > even very > straightforward build-another-one-just-like-the-last one spacecraft. The > only exception to this, I believe, are some communication satellites. I personally think this is a sad bit of NASA. It would be nice to be able to respond to short lived phenomena such as cometary encounters. (hint, hint) > > 3. Assume a target star 20 light years away. > > > > 4. Intial data must be received from target star system within 100 > > years. An interesting question is what collection strategy to use. You > > could > > adopt a cometary orbit or try to look for planetary body etc. Minimum > > requirement is a fly-through at less then .05C mean. Remember that your > > communications lines have a 40 year turnaround. May be allowed a 10% > > extension on time limit given a high grade justification. > > > > 5. Maximum cost will be 1 billion in current dollars. It may be > > competing in Congress with a submarine base in Arizona so the cheaper > > the better. > > No chance whatsoever. The shuttle launches will cost you $140 million alone, > and most of your cost will be engineering salaries for design and > construction at $60 - 100 an hour. Again, I think a sad commentary. Space flight is expensive in terms of engineering resources. It might be useful if we had a class of expendable special purpose boosters. > > 6. Worship the KISS principle. This thing has to go a long way on > > it own. > > Don't forget a lot of redundancy. Important. You cannot stepwise refine hardware once it's in flight. I thought this question was interesting from the stand point of materials science and autonomous vehicles. We really don't know how well our earthly materials will withstand the rigors of deep space. We have learned a lot from the last two pairs of deep space missions. How would you handle a craft hit by an astroid before leaving the solar system? Would you give up or have the robot try and repair itself. Sounds expensive. Lots of interesting, fun questions (sorry, can't answer some for $1G). Wish I had more time. --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,decwrl,allegra}!ames!aurora!eugene @ames-vmsb.ARPA:emiya@jup.DECNET ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!decwrl!greipa!pesnta!lsuc!utcs!utzoo!henry From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Interstellar probes Date: 27 May 85 16:28:26 GMT Organization: U of Toronto Zoology As somebody (Pournelle?) once observed: 1. Alpha Centauri, the nearest star, is 4.3 LY away. 2. Assuming 0.99999c propulsion and radio/laser data return, the round-trip time is thus 8.6 years. 3. The maximum US presidential term is 8 years. 4. 8 < 8.6, so no starprobes. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Landings Set For EAFB Date: 29 May 85 12:15:18 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill NASA said yesterday that the next four or five shuttle missions will land at EAFB instead of KSC. While the agency would prefer a landing at KSC, to save the time and money of ferrying the shuttle back from California, it wants to give the shuttles a wide margin of error until the April brake problem with the Discovery has been found and corrected. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!mgnetp!dicomed!mecc!sewilco From: mecc!sewilco (Scot E. Wilcoxon) Subject: Re: cheap interstellar probes Date: 28 May 85 16:44:58 GMT Organization: MN Ed Comp Corp, St Paul In <1946@mordor.UUCP> redford%avoid.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford) writes: > ...[after showing well how he calculated it]... >For every kilogram of sail, we must apply 6 million watts for 46 years. >That works out to 2.6 billion kW-hrs of energy per kilogram of sail, or >(at seven cents per kilowatt-hour) 180 million dollars worth of energy >per kg. Maybe we need a cheaper laser. Or lasers..several lower power ones would have great maintenance advantages. Could always put a bank of lasers on a "Solar Power Satellite" (is SPS a recognized acronym?), but it would be nice to avoid the (photon-electron-photon) middleman. BTW, I assume these lasers would be in space. I don't care to have that much power going through the atmosphere we have to breathe. I'd also feel a bit safer if Earth's atmosphere were opaque to the laser's frequency. If a gas laser can be triggered by photons, maybe a group of mirrors can focus enough sunlight on the lasers. There's also the idea (wish I remembered the source) of using mirrors to focus sunlight on the sail. But since non-coherent light cannot be concentrated over long distances, this is only useful relatively near the sun. So to achieve significant acceleration, several (maybe even a ring) of mirrors are put around the initial circular orbit of the sail. As the sail starts getting too far from one mirror it is near enough to the next one for it to focus on the sail. When mirrors are not focusing on the sail, they are used as sails to accelerate nearer to the (ever expanding) orbit of the target sail. After the target sail uses a planet to direct itself onto the final course, lasers can be used to continue boost. If the mirrors can't be used to drive the lasers, they'll find some other use..SPS reflectors, asteroid smelter, Pluto probe... ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #175 ******************* 01-Jun-85 0357 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #176 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 176 Today's Topics: interstellar probes Re: Strange launch, and stranger announcements Matter-Antimatter Drive Mars rumor speed Light-weight, omni-directional communications... Stuck in the center of the space station problem - HELP Re: Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Re: Money to burn Re: Money to burn Re: speed New Steering System ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 31 May 1985 08:35-PDT From: king@Kestrel.ARPA Subject: interstellar probes To: space@mc One way of getting close approaches to the planets and still not have to decelerate is to have two probes; one would locate the planets and radio the information to its parner, a MIRVed probe approximately a year behind. The second prob has to be MIRVed because there is little chance of catching even two planets with one probe; gravitational manouvering doesn't work at .20C. ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 85 10:56:07 PDT (Friday) From: Lynn.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Strange launch, and stranger announcements To: SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: lynn.es@Xerox.ARPA I was also at RTMC, but was inside during the launch display. What I gathered from people outside, radio and newspaper reports was this. Vandenberg did not have a launch (though a radio report quoted a source at Edwards as saying they did). There was a launch (reported singular) from submarine using the test range off the California coast controlled by Pt Mugu. It was seen from as far as Arizona. In addition to your description, several witnesses stated that the first vehicle eventually split into 5 vehicles which individually looped and otherwise maneuvered. /Don Lynn ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 85 14:18:29 EDT From: Hank.Walker@CMU-CS-UNH Subject: Matter-Antimatter Drive To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A A few years ago, Bob Forward gave a talk here on the science behind his Analog serial "Rocheworld" (later published as the book "Flight of the Dragonfly"). He chose to use a laser-driven light sail in the story, but he also looked into using antimatter. We already make antimatter in particle accelerators. We just make very small quantitities, and do it very inefficiently. But then no one has really investigated antimatter production. You don't use antimatter by mixing it with equal amounts of matter and getting gamma rays. You mix a little antimatter with a lot of hydrogen. The antimatter is merely a light-weight method of heating hydrogen. You keep the amount of hydrogen fixed at millions of kilograms, and vary the amount of antimatter used, depending on the trip length. I seem to recall that interplanetary missions used grams of antimatter, while interstellar missions used kilograms. I don't think I'd be real comfortable riding around with 20 quatrillion joules of potentially explosive energy in my tail. ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 85 15:21:47 EDT From: Robert.Aarhus@CMU-CS-SPICE Subject: Mars rumor To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A I hate to bring up a rumor like this on one of the best net-bboards, but I am hoping that someone "in the know" can confirm/deny this story: At a national Metallurgical Science convention, it was announced that photographs from the Viking lander revealed what appeared to be a pyramidal rock formation with "a face on it" (this is where I became *real* skeptical); the formation, no less, had dimensions akin to those of the Great Pyramids. The pyramid appeared in greatly enlarged photographs of the martian surface. Now a rock formation, perhaps, but a Pyramid with a face? Does anyone know if this thing has been observed (maybe just a photographic artifact?), and if so, why the media hasn't picked up on it (sounds like something from the pages of the Enquirer)?.. Bob Aarhus rta@cmu-cs-spice.arpa ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!osiris!rob From: osiris!rob (Robert St. Amant) Subject: speed Date: 30 May 85 19:37:12 GMT Organization: Johns Hopkins Hospital I've heard the twin paradox, and until recently I thought I had it straight. I thought of something recently, though. When one twin takes off, leaving the other here, why does the one in space age more slowly? Why can't you use a reference frame travelling with him and say that the earth is travelling at a great velocity? Am I missing something? (Obviously I am.) Rob St. Amant ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-babel!maxwell From: maxwell@babel.DEC Subject: Light-weight, omni-directional communications... Date: 30 May 85 14:17:02 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: DEC Engineering Network Regarding Henry Spencer's ultra-light (2 kg) sail payload: > Power and communications will obviously be major issues.... Communications > will probably require a steerable antenna, alas. Would optical communication > be better? If an omni-directional mirror, such as those left on the moon as a laser target, could be made light enough, how about the following: Cover the 'mirror' with an LCD shutter, which is modulated by (low power) on-board electronics. The payload is tracked by ground based telescopes, which point a laser at the target (the sail should be easy to track optically) and record the reflection. Result: no moving parts. Problems to solve: mass of mirror, LCD longevity, and the mirror's size, shape and fight orientation (since it's fixed relative to the sail throughout the flight). -+- Sid Maxwell, DEC @ Spit Brook, Nahsua NH ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!gymble!lll-crg!dual!ames!moose From: ames!moose (Mary Kaiser) Subject: Stuck in the center of the space station problem - HELP Date: 30 May 85 17:09:38 GMT Organization: NASA-Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** Does anyone have an archive of people's comments and solutions to the stuck astronaut problem? I came into the discussion late, and missed out on most people's input. If someone out there could help me out, I'd be very grateful. I study people's intuitions concerning physics and mechanics, and this is great stuff. My address (in case computer mail doesn't make it through, which it often doesn't on our system) is: Mary Kaiser Mail Stop 239-3 NASA Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA 94035 (415) 694-6789 Thanks in advance for your help. By the way, all you creative souls should contribute to the "What if" dialogue on net.startrek....last match-up was the Enterprise vs. the Death Star. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!hao!hplabs!ames!aurora!al From: aurora!al (Al Globus) Subject: Re: Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Date: 29 May 85 18:20:12 GMT Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA > > Getting stuck "motionless" in vacuum is another matter. But > if one got stuck there by pushing another mass away, won't > the astronaut and the mass meet again in one orbit? Not if the force is along the velocity vector, at least. If you push away a mass along the velocity vector one object will go into a higher orbit and the other into a lower orbit. If the force is not along the velocity vector things get complex. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!hao!hplabs!ames!aurora!al From: aurora!al (Al Globus) Subject: Re: Money to burn Date: 29 May 85 18:35:39 GMT Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA > > Assume for a moment that we were not in bugetary hard times and could > afford an attack of conspicuous consumption. Could a reasonable interstellar > one-way unmanned probe mission be designed which would give some legitimate > science data in addition to the usual ego stuff. The British Interplanetary society has designed such a craft, unfortunately, I can't remember what the called it. > Because of the constraints > it will be important keep things simple. The parameters? > > 1. Assume only near term technology and assets. For example, no > space station. You are allowed two shuttle payloads if necessary - doing > it in one gets bonus points. > Might as well use the Space Station. It'll make the job easier and you won't get anything near ready to launch before its available. > 2. Must be ready to launch within 5 years. Not a prayer. Almost nothing gets launched within 5 years of conception, even very straightforward build-another-one-just-like-the-last one spacecraft. The only exception to this, I believe, are some communication satellites. > > 3. Assume a target star 20 light years away. > > 4. Intial data must be received from target star system within 100 > years. An interesting question is what collection strategy to use. You could > adopt a cometary orbit or try to look for planetary body etc. Minimum > requirement is a fly-through at less then .05C mean. Remember that your > communications lines have a 40 year turnaround. May be allowed a 10% > extension on time limit given a high grade justification. > > 5. Maximum cost will be 1 billion in current dollars. It may be > competing in Congress with a submarine base in Arizona so the cheaper > the better. No chance whatsoever. The shuttle launches will cost you $140 million alone, and most of your cost will be engineering salaries for design and construction at $60 - 100 an hour. > > 6. Worship the KISS principle. This thing has to go a long way on > it own. > Don't forget a lot of redundancy. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!frog!x!john From: x!john (John Woods) Subject: Re: Money to burn Date: 30 May 85 15:20:59 GMT Organization: Charles River Data Systems, Framingham MA > From: jim@TYCHO.ARPA (James B. Houser) > > science data in addition to the usual ego stuff. Because of the constraints > it will be important keep things simple. The parameters? > 1. Assume only near term technology and assets. For example, no > 2. Must be ready to launch within 5 years. > 3. Assume a target star 20 light years away. > 4. Intial data must be received from target star system within 100 > years. > Occurred that this would be an interesting thought experiment. > You can assume the target is in whatever direction you like if it will help. > Prime issue may be the choice of propulsion scheme. Another question is > what instruments to carry, preferably few and simple. Any thoughts???? > My initial thought is that it may be better to wait: within 100 years, perhaps within 50 years, we will be able to do much better than the speeds currently available (you mentioned .05C, but to get to a start 20LY away in 100 years, you need at least .2C average speed, anyway!). If in 50 years we can develop the ability to get a probe to that star in 40 years, you're 10 years ahead by waiting 50 years! Not that I'm averse to the idea, but it seems that just puttering around the Solar System for another few decades will be enough to get ready for a high-class interstellar probe. Think we could interest Proxmire in a Shuttle ticket? Hey, to keep it cheap, it could be one-way!-) -- John Woods, Charles River Data Systems, Framingham MA, (617) 626-1101 ...!decvax!frog!john, ...!mit-eddie!jfw, jfw%mit-ccc@MIT-XX.ARPA "MU" said the Sacred Chao... ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!utastro!ethan From: utastro!ethan (Ethan Vishniac) Subject: Re: speed Date: 31 May 85 16:12:17 GMT Organization: U. Texas, Astronomy, Austin, TX > I've heard the twin paradox, and until recently I thought I had it > straight. I thought of something recently, though. When one twin > takes off, leaving the other here, why does the one in space age > more slowly? Why can't you use a reference frame travelling with > him and say that the earth is travelling at a great velocity? Am > I missing something? (Obviously I am.) > > Rob St. Amant You can use any reference frame you want. You have a choice of three obvious ones: Earth, astronaut on his way out, and astronaut on his way back. The only requirement of the theory is that when the astronaut returns and compares his age the answer should be consistent with description in any reference frame. We have Earth: Joe consistently aged more slowly than his hidebound brother John who stayed home. Outward bound frame : At first John, sitting on a rapidly moving Earth, was aging more slowly than Joe. However, Joe decided to catch up to the Earth and during this time aged hardly at all. The net effect is that more time passed for John than for Joe. Inward bound frame: At first John and Joe are first moving at high speeds. However Joe is moving much more rapidly than John. After a while he stops moving and John (and the Earth) catches up to him. However, Joe spent very little time standing still and the net effect is still that less time passed for him (because of his earlier high speed motion). -- "Don't argue with a fool. Ethan Vishniac Borrow his money." {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan Department of Astronomy University of Texas ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: New Steering System Date: 31 May 85 03:43:11 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill NASA announced today that, due to brake problems on all 17 shuttle flights, it is abandoning differential braking for steering the shuttle upon landing. Instead, all four shuttles will be modified, by October, to include a new nosewheel steering system. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #176 ******************* 02-Jun-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #177 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 177 Today's Topics: On orbits and meeting what you throw ... Re: Money to burn Re: general space information Interstellar sailing with lasers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 Jun 85 15:50:13 PDT (Saturday) From: Ayers.PA@Xerox.ARPA Subject: On orbits and meeting what you throw ... To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA In an appropriate (earth-centered, non-rotating) reference frame, any coasting earth-orbiter travels in a closed curve. (We neglect air resistance, the equatorial bulge, the influnce of the sun and moon and planets, light-pressure, and all that other stuff you get to leave out of physics problems.) You are in earth orbit and throw something away from you -- in any direction, forward, backward, up, down ... The instant after the throw, both you and the object are coasting in (non-identical) earth orbits. Since the orbits are closed curves, the orbits will (forever) intersect at the point of the throw. One your-orbit-time later, you will be back at the point of the throw. One object-orbit-time later, the object will be back at the point of the throw. These times, in general, will be different and the object will not hit you. But if the "throw" is very gentle, the orbits will be similar, and after one orbit the object will be very close to you. Bob ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!greipa!pesnta!lsuc!utcs!utzoo!henry From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Money to burn Date: 30 May 85 18:04:47 GMT Organization: U of Toronto Zoology > ... Since lasers produce a highly collimated > beam, there is no real 1/(r squared) problem. Alas, not so. Lasers do not eliminate the inverse-square problem, they merely postpone it. Keeping a beam focused on a lightsail over interstellar distances is still a major problem, although solutions are known (albeit ones that involve very large structures, which would have to be space-based). Note also that producing any noticeable amount of thrust with a lightsail requires tremendous laser power output. Don't be misled by thinking that it only has to match sunlight; sunlight is (speaking *very* roughly) a kilowatt per square meter. When the sail gets large, the necessary laser power gets huge. Note also that lasers are inefficient, maybe 15-20% at best. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!greipa!pesnta!lsuc!utcs!utzoo!henry From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: general space information Date: 30 May 85 18:12:33 GMT Organization: U of Toronto Zoology While these news items were interesting, the format of their presentation was not ideal. All-lower-case is considerably more readable than all- upper-case; it would be nice if future postings had this conversion done. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!greipa!pesnta!lsuc!utcs!mnetor!fred From: mnetor!fred (Fred Williams) Subject: Interstellar sailing with lasers. Date: 30 May 85 15:44:22 GMT Organization: Computer X (CANADA) Ltd., Toronto, Ontario, Canada I suspect that the idea of a laser base on earth, or nearby space as a source of power for an interstellar probe is not practical. My reasoning is that if a laser aimed at the moon lights a spot two miles in diameter then the beam is not sufficiently coherant at interstellar distances. In short, you *would* be defeated by the inverse square law. From a reliablility standpoint I believe the best way to conduct interstellar exploration is with manned craft. This means carefully balanced ecosystems, large spacecraft, fully maintainable and self sufficient. (ie. it doesn't have to come back). I realise that this exceeds current cost limitations, but it's just a dream anyway. I believe such a craft could be constructed using present technology. So have we not reached a point where our reach exceeds our grasp? Cheers, Fred Williams. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #177 ******************* 03-Jun-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #178 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 178 Today's Topics: Re: Re: Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Re: Matter/Antimatter drive ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!hao!hplabs!ames!aurora!al From: aurora!al (Al Globus) Subject: Re: Re: Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Date: 30 May 85 21:28:51 GMT Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA > > > > Getting stuck "motionless" in vacuum is another matter. But > > if one got stuck there by pushing another mass away, won't > > the astronaut and the mass meet again in one orbit? > > Not if the force is along the velocity vector, at least. If you > push away a mass along the velocity vector one object will go > into a higher orbit and the other into a lower orbit. If the > force is not along the velocity vector things get complex. Whoops! After exactly one orbit you will meet up again, and will every orbit until one party or the other is disturbed. Sorry .... ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!cybvax0!frog!x!john From: x!john (John Woods) Subject: Re: Matter/Antimatter drive Date: 31 May 85 21:10:20 GMT Organization: Charles River Data Systems, Framingham MA > From: Anthony J. Courtemanche > On the last episode of PBS's Space Flight last night, some futurist [ O'Neill, I think ] > said that in order to make a resonable flight to another star, we > would need the technology for a matter/anitmatter drive, which I think > he indicated would be available within the next 100 to 200 years. > Could someone who understands particle physics please explain what the > idea is behind a matter/antimatter drive. Specifically, what does it > take to make the antimatter and how would one turn the energy from a > matter/anitmatter explosion into thrust? > To make antimatter, the current technology is to bash high-speed particles (protons are popular) into a target, which creates "lots" of particle--anti- particle pairs, some of which are separated by magnets (before they recombine). These can be stored (currently) in vacuum chambers with huge magnets of appropriate configurations (i.e., particle accelerator storage rings). SUMMARY -- right now, antimatter is tough to mass produce. To use antimatter, once you have it (and have it bottled appropriately in magnetic fields), one idea proposed has been to eject small bits of frozen anti-hydrogen (relatively easy to make given quantities of anti-electrons and anti-protons) into a reaction chamber filled with water. The anti-matter reacts with matter to form quite a bit of energy, much of which is transferred to the surrounding water -- which boils instantly, creating pressure that exits out the nozzle, and voila! a rocket. The ideas are quite simple. The engineering may be a tad tough... -- John Woods, Charles River Data Systems, Framingham MA, (617) 626-1101 ...!decvax!frog!john, ...!mit-eddie!jfw, jfw%mit-ccc@MIT-XX.ARPA "MU" said the Sacred Chao... ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #178 ******************* 04-Jun-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #179 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 179 Today's Topics: Re: Twin Paradox Laser Source In Orbit Re: Re: Re: Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space Re: Mars rumor Meeting in orbit -- A thought experiment Re: Meeting in orbit -- A thought experiment ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Jun 85 09:44 PDT From: Ghenis.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Twin Paradox PDT To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: Ghenis.pasa@Xerox.ARPA >I've heard the twin paradox, and until recently I thought I had it >straight. I thought of something recently, though. When one twin >takes off, leaving the other here, why does the one in space age >more slowly? Why can't you use a reference frame travelling with >him and say that the earth is travelling at a great velocity? Am >I missing something? (Obviously I am.) The key to the twin paradox is that the travelling twin goes on a ROUND TRIP, so his frame of reference is an ACCELERATED FRAME (you cannot return to Earth without changing direction, and you cannot change direction without acceleration) whereas the stationary twin has an INERTIAL FRAME. This is what makes their frames of reference non-equivalent, thereby they will experience time differently. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jun 85 10:22 CDT From: Mike_Linnig To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: linnig%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: Laser Source In Orbit > > Alas, not so. Lasers do not eliminate the inverse-square problem, they > merely postpone it. Keeping a beam focused on a lightsail over > interstellar distances is still a major problem, although solutions are > known (albeit ones that involve very large structures, which would have > to be space-based). ah... but be careful about providing photon thrust from a laser in earth orbit or you might find yourself launching your laser platform ! Mike Linnig Texas Instruments Inc., Ada Technology Branch ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 85 10:13 PDT From: Ghenis.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Getting stuck in the middle of space 85 03:47 PDT To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: Ghenis.pasa@Xerox.ARPA >>> >>> Getting stuck "motionless" in vacuum is another matter. But >>> if one got stuck there by pushing another mass away, won't >>> the astronaut and the mass meet again in one orbit? >> >> Not if the force is along the velocity vector, at least. If you >> push away a mass along the velocity vector one object will go >> into a higher orbit and the other into a lower orbit. If the >> force is not along the velocity vector things get complex. > >Whoops! After exactly one orbit you will meet up again, and will every >orbit until one party or the other is disturbed. Sorry .... Whoops! Both objects will continue to pass through the point of separation in each orbit, but they will not meet for a long time because having different orbits they will have different orbital periods, hence they won't return to that point AT THE SAME TIME after one orbit. Sorry .... ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 85 10:28:15 PDT (Monday) From: Lynn.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Mars rumor To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: Lynn.es@Xerox.ARPA, Robert.Aarhus@CMU-CS-SPICE.ARPA NASA has been showing those pictures for years, and people keep trying to make something out of them. There are two separate objects on Mars to which you refer, one a pyramid shaped peak, quite regular, and the other a rock formation that with just the right sunlight angle appears roughly like a face. But only roughly. There is no reason to assume they are other than natural rock formations. After all there are several famous natural rock "faces" here on earth. /Don Lynn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jun 85 17:39 CDT From: Mike_Linnig To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: linnig%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: Meeting in orbit -- A thought experiment > > > > Not if the force is along the velocity vector, at least. If you > > push away a mass along the velocity vector one object will go > > into a higher orbit and the other into a lower orbit. If the > > force is not along the velocity vector things get complex. > > Whoops! After exactly one orbit you will meet up again, and will every > orbit until one party or the other is disturbed. Sorry .... > Now wait a minute, suppose I throw a *BIG* rock fast enough to give myself escape velocity. When exactly, will I meet that rock again ? Since the last time I saw my rock it was heading away from me, and I am no longer in orbit........... "Thought experiments are wonderful things." -- Mike Linnig ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jun 85 20:48:15 pdt From: Rick McGeer To: linnig%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.ARPA, space@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Re: Meeting in orbit -- A thought experiment If you threw yourself into an escape orbit, you'd throw the rock into an impact orbit. I think. Well, know, that's not quite true. Snce MV = MV, if the rock was very large in mass compared with you (or if both you and the rock were in near-escape orbits), you'd merely throw the rock into a lower orbit. Rick. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #179 ******************* 05-Jun-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #180 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 180 Today's Topics: Twin paradox ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 4 Jun 85 00:21:17 est From: Tony Guzzi To: space@mit-mc.ARPA ~s Matter-Antimatter and particles near the speed of light A number of submissions in the past few days has dealt with the idea of traveling near the speed of light and shipd with a matter-antimatter drive. In the last issue (vol 5, issue #178), John Woods said: > To make antimatter, the current technology is to bash high-speed particles > (protons are popular) into a target, which creates "lots" of particle--anti- > particle pairs, some of which are separated by magnets (before they > recombine). I believe that I've heard that antimatter is also produced whenever a particle is accelerated very close to the speed of light. If this is wrong then the rest of what I have to say is meaningless and everyone can ignore it. But if I'm right, then I think "we" may have a problem with trying to accelerate anything (larger than a subatomic particle) close to the speed of light. Imagine this: * You have a molecule that is composed of, say, 1000 subatomic particles (protons, electrons, neutrons) * You accelerate this molecule to close to the speed of light, close enough to cause antimatter to be produced. * Since the molecule contains 1000 subatomic particles, you are infact not accelerating 1 particle but 1000 particles. If you are close enough to the speed of light to produce antimatter, would not the 1000 paricles making up the molecule soon be accompanied by 1000 antimatter particles which are trying to move away or are being pulled away from thier matter counterpart. What we have now seems to be two molecules, one matter, the other antimatter, overlapping each other and trying to separate or being separated into two groups (a matter group and an antimatter group). The problem occurs during the separation. There would seem to be a non-negligible probability that the antimatter counterpart of one matter particle could collide with the matter part of another particle pair resulting in a matter-antimatter annihilation. As we increase the number of original matter particles being accelerated to near the speed of light, the number of annihilations would grow with the result that an object the size of a space ship would be "blown to a million pieces" in a matter-anitmatter explosion. As I said, I think the antimatter counterpart of a particle is produced when the particle is accelerated to near the speed of light. Any ideas or thoughts? I am also sending this out to the physics bboard (PHYSICS@SRI-UNIX.ARPA). I'll pass on any responses I get. Tony Guzzi ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jun 85 06:02 PDT From: TERRY%LAJ.SAINET.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Twin paradox To: SPACE-ENTHUSIASTS@MIT-MC.ARPA Since the subject of special relativity's twin paradox has come up, let me add one small note. Many people believe that the "paradox" part of the twin paradox is that the two twins are no longer the same age. This is not the case. The paradox referred to as the "twin paradox" is precisely the question posed by the original posting on this subject: "Since all motion is relative, why should the twins have different ages? We can regard either twin as being stationary and the other twin as moving, therefore we can show that each twin should be younger than the other." NOW we have a paradox. The answer, as has been pointed out, is that the two twins are NOT in symmetrical situations. The traveling twin has undergone a fair amount of acceleration with respect to the Earth that the Earthbound twin has obviously not. It is precisely this acceleration that causes the traveling twin to age more slowly, and thus be younger upon return, than the Earth- bound twin. Paradox resolved. For those of you who are also on the physics mailing list, we are in a similar situation here as all the postings regarding objects such as the Moon moving much faster than the speed of light if you are sitting on a spinning turntable while watching it. As was concluded by a number of folks, accelerated (non-inertial) reference frames don't count in special relativity. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #180 ******************* 06-Jun-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #181 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 181 Today's Topics: Matter-Antimatter and particles near the speed of light Re: Re: twin paradox ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wednesday, 5 Jun 1985 07:43-EDT From: jrv@Mitre-Bedford To: SPACE@MIT-MC Subject: Matter-Antimatter and particles near the speed of light >> To make antimatter, the current technology is to bash high-speed particles >> (protons are popular) into a target, which creates "lots" of particle--anti- >> particle pairs, some of which are separated by magnets (before they >> recombine). > I believe that I've heard that antimatter is also produced whenever a particle > is accelerated very close to the speed of light... > > Tony Guzzi > Merely accelerating matter doesn't produce antimatter. However, if you *Accelerate* a *charged* particle (by forcing it to travel in a circle, for example), you will produce *photons* (synchrotron radiation, in this case). - Jim Van Zandt ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 85 13:42:41 EDT From: Charles.Fineman@CMU-CS-SPICE Subject: Re: Re: twin paradox To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A > The key to the twin paradox is that the travelling twin goes on a ROUND > TRIP, so his frame of reference is an ACCELERATED FRAME (you cannot > return to Earth without changing direction, and you cannot change > direction without acceleration) whereas the stationary twin has an > INERTIAL FRAME. This is what makes their frames of reference > non-equivalent, thereby they will experience time differently. What if we assume that the universe is closed? Then it would be possible to return to earth without changing your accelration. What happens then? ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #181 ******************* 07-Jun-85 0359 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #182 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 182 Today's Topics: Re: Matter-Antimatter and particles near the speed of light Re: Money to burn Closed Universe and the Twin Paradox NASA laser videodiscs available Re: Matter/Antimatter drive shuttle/ground frequencies? Twin Paradox Explained Re: Matter-Antimatter and particles near the speed of light Re: speed Re: Mars rumor Spartan 1 to Study Black Hole New steering system Re: Re: Interstellar probes Re: ultralight probes Next Four Shuttle Launches Re: Progress of Shuttle Atlantis Re: Closed Universe and the Twin Paradox Re: Strange launch, and stranger announcements Re: interstellar probes Wanted: orbital mechanics program(s) shuttle mission in July? Re: Meeting in orbit -- A thought experiment Re: Mars rumor Re: Re: twin paradox What's happening on the solstice? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thursday, 6 Jun 1985 07:29-EDT From: jrv@Mitre-Bedford To: mcgeer%ucbkim@Berkeley Subject: Re: Matter-Antimatter and particles near the speed of light Cc: space@mit-mc > Is the path of the photon normal to the path of the particle? (if the > particle is moving in a circle, I suppose I should say normal to the tangent > of the photon's path) > > Rick. For nonrelativistic particles, the radiation from an accelerated charged particle is mostly normal to the path of the particle. For relativistic particles, the radiation is forward (like headlights on a car). (See Jackson, _Classical Electrodynamics_, 2nd edition, page 663, figure 14.4) - Jim Van Zandt ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!utzoo!watmath!wateng!broehl From: wateng!broehl (Bernie Roehl) Subject: Re: Money to burn Date: 29 May 85 14:51:23 GMT Reply-To: broehl@wateng.UUCP (Bernie Roehl) Organization: U of Waterloo, Ontario Hmm... To get first data back in ~100 years, and given that 40 of those years is the time it would take the data to make the trip back, you have 60 years to get to a star 20 ly away. Thus, you must be travelling at .3c, average. However, the speed in the target system must be reduced to 0.05c; this is a non-trivial task! Doing the whole thing by 1990 for less than $1B is, to say the least, extremely challenging. Personally, I don't think it's possible. However... The most promising form of propulsion is probably the use of ground-based lasers. You would use one shuttle flight to put the probe itself in orbit, along with a *very* long-lasting nuclear power source and self-repairing on-board systems (don't laugh; serious research has been done in this area). The second shuttle flight would carry a modified Centaur stage and a *huge* solar sail. You mate the two in earth orbit, and use the Centaur to take the thing on a trajectory past some massive body (e.g. Jupiter) to give it more of a kick (or, more accurately, redirect its velocity vector to a more useful direction). One possibility is to use Jupiter to cancel the craft's orbital velocity relative to the Sun, and use the Sun's gravity for even more of a slingshot. All this maneuvering would take a number of years, but the end result would be a craft leaving the solar system with a reasonable velocity (still nowhere near c of course, put respectable nevertheless). By the time all of this is done, we may very well have powerful enough ground-based (or space-based?) lasers that we can start using them to propel the craft further. The craft would unfurl its sail, and we would focus the laser on it, providing thrust. Since lasers produce a highly collimated beam, there is no real 1/(r squared) problem. In theory, you can eventually get the thing moving at a pretty good clip; after all, you get a small but continuous acceleration for ~60 years. (remember of course that a ground-based laser would not be able to "see" the probe continuosly, but it wouldn't be that many years before space-based lasers would supplant the ground-based one(s)). The big problem is slowing the probe down when it arrives. The best way is to have a laser on the destination end, but in this case that seems a little unlikely. Other than that, no solution seems immediately obvious. Of course, I would hope that in the 100 years it would take to get data back from the probe, we will have reached the point where the probe itself is little more than an historical curiousity. Personally, I want to be there when the probe arrives... -- -Bernie Roehl (University of Waterloo) ...decvax!watmath!wateng!broehl ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 85 09:31 PDT From: Ghenis.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Closed Universe and the Twin Paradox To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: Ghenis.pasa@Xerox.ARPA >> The key to the twin paradox is that the travelling twin goes on a ROUND >> TRIP, so his frame of reference is an ACCELERATED FRAME (you cannot >> return to Earth without changing direction, and you cannot change >> direction without acceleration) whereas the stationary twin has an >> INERTIAL FRAME. This is what makes their frames of reference >> non-equivalent, thereby they will experience time differently. > >What if we assume that the universe is closed? Then it would be possible to >return to earth without changing your accelration. What happens then? (You mean without acceleration ...) Interesting thought. This would lead to a paradoxical situation when the twins met again. Since both would have had inertial frames of reference, their ages should be the same (the symmetry of the thought experiment requires this). However, each will expect the other to be younger due to the perceived time dilation (Doppler effect). Summary: The assumption of a closed universe leads to a contradiction. Does this rationale DISPROVE the notion of a closed universe? ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!hao!hplabs!tektronix!orca!andrew From: orca!andrew (Andrew Klossner) Subject: NASA laser videodiscs available Date: 1 Jun 85 22:40:24 GMT Organization: Tektronix, Wilsonville OR I have three "computer products catalog data sheets" which describe space-related videodiscs available from NASA. These sheets are normally used to describe software, and includes blocks for "file size in number of reels or punched cards", "programming language", and "operating system", all of which have been left blank. In each case, the following address is given: NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory California Institute of Technology 4800 Oak Grove Driver Pasadena, California 91103 ======================================================================== ACCESSION NUMBER PB84-191162 CONTRIBUTING AGENCY REPORT NUMBER NASA/DF-84/001 (see AVAILABILITY STATEMENT below) PRODUCT NAME Selected NASA JPL Mission Video Images (Videodisc) DESCRIPTORS OF PRODUCT Data File DATES OF COVERAGE 1982 AVAILABILITY STATEMENT - AGENCY NAME AND ADDRESS, ORDER NO., ETC. This data file supersedes PB83-223 123 (NASA/DF-83/001) PRICE INFORMATION $50.00 domestic; $80.00 foreign (code T99) TECHNICAL REPRESENTATIVES Frank Bristow Manager, Public Information Office (213) 354-4321 COMPUTER PRODUCT ABSTRACT The Selected JPL Mission Video Images-Videodisc consists of a one sided color recording of selected motion picture and television clips. It contains one hour of film and video clips from selected JPL flight missions: Ranger 9 photos of the Moon; Surveyor, Mariner 2 and 10 pre-launch film clips; Voyager 1 and 2 photos of Jupiter; The Jovian System; and Voyager 1 and 2 photos of Saturn. The disc can be played on Laser Disc Players made by Sony, Discovision, Pioneer, and Magnavox. ======================================================================== ACCESSION NUMBER PB85-144756 CONTRIBUTING AGENCY REPORT NUMBER NASA/DF-85/003 PRODUCT NAME Planetary Image Videodisc Volume I DESCRIPTORS OF PRODUCT Data File DATES OF COVERAGE 1982 PRICE INFORMATION $50.00 domestic; $80.00 foreign (code T99) TECHNICAL REPRESENTATIVES Michael D. Martin Operations Manager (213) 354-6065 COMPUTER PRODUCT ABSTRACT The Planetary Image Videodisc is an analog-encoded optical disc containing more than 100,000 black and white images of Mercury, Venus, Mars, and Jupiter taken during the Mariner, Viking, and Voyager planetary missions. An equivalent number of 8- x 10-in. photographs would require nearly 300 cubic feet of storage space (14 cabinets containing 666 binders). More than a year of effort went into organizing, labeling, and photographing the individual images on 35-mm film. The film was then transferred to videotape, then a master videodisc was produced, and copies for distribution were made. Response from the scientific community has been overwhelmingly favorable both to the instantaneous access to images provided by videodisc technology and to the overall quality of the images on the disc. The disc represents the first full-scale use of videodisc technology for storage and retrieval of an image archive and a significant step toward our ultimate goal of widespread dissemination of space science data to both the scientific and educational communities. The disc can be played on Laser Disc Players made by Sony, Discovision, Pioneer, and Magnavox. ======================================================================== ACCESSION NUMBER PB85-144764 CONTRIBUTING AGENCY REPORT NUMBER NASA/DF-85/002 PRODUCT NAME Planetary Image Videodisc, Volume II DESCRIPTORS OF PRODUCT Data File DATES OF COVERAGE 1982 PRICE INFORMATION $50.00 domestic; $80.00 foreign (code T99) TECHNICAL REPRESENTATIVES Michael D. Martin Operations Manager (213) 354-6065 COMPUTER PRODUCT ABSTRACT (same abstract as for volume I) ======================================================================== I personally haven't seen this discs. -=- Andrew Klossner (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew) [UUCP] (orca!andrew.tektronix@csnet-relay) [ARPA] ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!utzoo!henry From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Matter/Antimatter drive Date: 1 Jun 85 23:52:56 GMT Organization: U of Toronto Zoology > Could someone who understands particle physics please explain what the > idea is behind a matter/antimatter drive. Specifically, what does it > take to make the antimatter... Existing particle accelerators can make antimatter, albeit at hideously low efficiencies. High-energy physicists are, I believe, doing some work with antiproton beams; the technique is to isolate antiprotons from the debris produced when a proton beam hits a target, and then accumulate them in a storage ring until you've got enough to be useful. Decelerating them to lower velocities is not hard. "Cooling" them -- removing the random component of their velocities -- is harder but the physicists already have adequate answers for this. Bringing them to a full stop has never been done, but presents no serious problems. Combining them with positrons to make anti-hydrogen is easy. Handling the result is tricky, but there are enough different ideas about how to do it that the problem should be solvable. The major hassle remains inefficient production, largely because the existing accelerators were not designed as antimatter factories. Dr. Robert Forward (senior scientist at Hughes, and advanced-propulsion consultant to the USAF) says that there appears to be no major obstacle to getting the efficiency up quite a bit from where it is now, if one assumes a large dedicated facility. > ...and how would one turn the energy from a > matter/anitmatter explosion into thrust? Positron plus electron equals gamma rays, ugh. Fortunately, proton plus antiproton isn't that simple. First you get both neutral and charged pions. The neutral pions are impossible to do anything with, both because they lack charge and because their life is very short. The charged pions are a different story; much of the energy of the proton-antiproton reaction comes out as their kinetic energy. Their lifetime is sufficient that they travel several meters. Since they are charged, they can be bullied about with magnetic fields. So one can build a magnetic nozzle that will get them going rearward. When they decay, the major product is muons. These too are charged, and their lifetime equals a kilometer or so of motion. So if the charged pions are too much of a problem, you can use a magnetic nozzle on the muons instead. You lose some energy in the pion decay, but it's still workable. Either way you get an exhaust of charged particles at very close to the speed of light, plus a spray of gamma rays and other ugly things that one would rather live without... In practice, there is a problem with this. The exhaust velocity is pretty high, but the thrust will probably be low because the gamma rays and other uncharged trash will limit the annihilation rate -- too much radiation and the coils that produce the magnetic nozzle will absorb enough to melt. For many purposes, it is probably better to use the matter-antimatter reaction to heat something else, probably hydrogen. The exhaust velocity will be lower, hence you get less ship velocity for a given amount of fuel, but the thrust will be much higher and hence the engine will be more useful. There's a whole range of tradeoffs. For interplanetary work, lower exhaust velocities will be plenty and the higher thrust will speed things up considerably. For interstellar rockets, you want the highest possible exhaust velocity, within the restriction that the acceleration time shouldn't be too ridiculously long. And if you want a really sexy interstellar drive, consider using antimatter to heat the gas gathered in by a Bussard ramscoop... > On the last episode of PBS's Space Flight last night, some futurist > said that in order to make a resonable flight to another star, we > would need the technology for a matter/anitmatter drive, There are other ways, but antimatter may well be the most promising. > which I think > he indicated would be available within the next 100 to 200 years. Forward says that existing technology is probably good enough to make antimatter cost-competitive for in-space propulsion. (Remember that the current alternative is lifting large quantities of liquid hydrogen and oxygen from the ground, which is expensive.) If he's right -- and he's a professional in this area -- it's probably going to happen a lot sooner than "100 to 200 years". -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcc3!sdcc12!wa68 From: sdcc12!wa68 (Alice Greene) Subject: shuttle/ground frequencies? Date: 2 Jun 85 03:23:08 GMT Organization: U.C. San Diego, Academic Computer Center Can anyone tell me whether it is possible to listen to shuttle to ground communications by tuning a short wave receiver to the proper frequency? Something about this was posted to the net a while ago, but at the time I paid no attention. I haven't been able to scan backwards successfully to find the information. Thank you for your help. Alice Greene [sdcc12!wa68] ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!gymble!lll-crg!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-viking!wasser_1 From: wasser_1@viking.DEC (John A. Wasser) Subject: Twin Paradox Explained Date: 3 Jun 85 14:05:41 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: DEC Engineering Network The Twin Paradox occurs because of the contraction along the direction of travel of objects moving at high speed relative to the observer. Lets take a trip from Earth to a star 10 light-years away at a speed where the contraction is 1/2. Lets call this speed .5c (which is wrong). (V would realy be 211,985,280m/s or c/sqrt(2) or about .707c) The ship leaves Earth at this speed, goes to the star and instantly reverses direction (this will simplify the example). Observer on the ship moving relative to the Earth/Star system: Due to the contraction, the distance from the Earth to the star looks like 5 light years. Traveling 5 light years at .5c takes ten years. Reversing direction and traveling the other way also takes 10 years so the total trip time (measured in the ship) is 20 years. Observer on the Earth/Star system moving relative to the ship: Due to the contraction, the length of the ship seems to be half its normal length. The distance to the star is still 10 light-years because the observer is not moving along the vector between the Earth and the star. The Earth/Star system move past the ship for 20 years at .5c. At this time the star end of the Earth/Star system has reached the (stationary) ship. The system now reverses direction and moves past the ship in the opposite direction. In another 20 years of moving at .5c, the Earth has once again reached the ship. The total trip time (measured on the Earth) is 40 years. Much of this I derived for my own edification after reading "Einstein for Beginners". It explains why the speed limit on light implies contraction. -John A. Wasser Work address: ARPAnet: WASSER%VIKING.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Usenet: {allegra,Shasta,decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-viking!wasser Easynet: VIKING::WASSER Telephone: (617)486-2505 USPS: Digital Equipment Corp. Mail stop: LJO2/E4 30 Porter Rd Littleton, MA 01460 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jun 85 09:55:19 pdt From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) To: jrv@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Re: Matter-Antimatter and particles near the speed of light Cc: space@mit-mc Hmm. In either case, with appropriate mirrors, we have a "Dean Machine", albeit not a very powerful one. Rick. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw From: rtp47!throopw (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: speed Date: 1 Jun 85 16:17:01 GMT Organization: Data General, RTP, NC > I've heard the twin paradox, and until recently I thought I had it > straight. I thought of something recently, though. When one twin > takes off, leaving the other here, why does the one in space age > more slowly? Why can't you use a reference frame travelling with > him and say that the earth is travelling at a great velocity? Am > I missing something? (Obviously I am.) > > Rob St. Amant You may have have heard the twin paradox before, but apparently you just realized why it is a paradox. After all, if one twin simply ages faster than the other, where is the paradox? The paradox is that *each* twin ages faster than the other (depending on your point of reference). To be more specific, imagine two folks of the same age, each traveling at some large fraction of C with respect to the other. Each will find that the other fellow seems to be aging slower. One way to resolve the paradox is to note that, unless one or the other fellow accelerates, they will never meet again, and hence the paradox can never be realized. On the other hand, if they *do* accelerate, that takes it out of the realm of special relativity, and *general* relativity accounts for the situation. (I have heard this hand-wave from several science popularizers, including either Arthur Clarke or Issac Asimov, I can't remember which). As I understand it, the situation *does* key on the acceleration, but the resolution of the paradox doesn't require general relativity. The key to the thing is what is considered "simultaneous" by each person in the situation. Let's tag the people here left-traveling and right-traveling (where "traveling" is simply in relation to the other person). The set of events in space-time considered "simultaneous" by the left-traveling person is *not* the same set of points considered "simultaneous" by the right-traveling person. For example, the left-traveling person considers the event "I've aged 1 year", simultaneous with event "the right-traveler has aged half-a-year". Also, the right-traveling person considers the event "I've aged 1 year", simultaneous with the event "the left-traveler has aged half-a-year". However, these two "facts" don't conflict, since they are derived from different reference frames. Now then, assume that the right-traveler accelerates after having traveled 1 year, and aquires the same velocity as the left-traveler. This acceleration changes the set of events that the right-traveler considers simultaneous. The right-traveler now considers the event "I've aged one year" to be simultaneous with "the left-traveler has aged two years". One way to look at it is that the right-traveler sees the left traveler age one-and-a-half years during the acceleration, and the paradox evaporates in a puff of exhaust gasses. :-) I hope this clarifies things rather than making them worse. It is a little easier to understand with diagrams, but I can't get my space-time charts to look good using simple character graphics. Sigh. -- Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC !mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!columbia!topaz!steiner From: steiner@topaz.ARPA (Dave Steiner) Subject: Re: Mars rumor Date: 4 Jun 85 21:24:19 GMT Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J. In the June 2nd issue of Parade Magazine (distributed in a number of newspapers) there is an article by Carl Sagan titled THE MAN IN THE MOON and subtitled "Why do people see faces in eggplants, tortillas, in the Moon and the planets?" In the article they talk about the face (at Cydonia) you describe (althought there is no mention of a pyramid). They have two pictures of it, one that is quite like a face, the other with the lighting at a different angle where it looks more like an irregular hill. An interesting article. -- ds uucp: ...{harvard, seismo, ut-sally, sri-iu, ihnp4!packard}!topaz!steiner arpa: Steiner@RUTGERS ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!mhuxt!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Spartan 1 to Study Black Hole Date: 4 Jun 85 02:19:36 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill On the fourth day of the next flight of the Discovery, Spartan 1 will be deployed by the RMS. Floating 100 miles away from the shuttle, it will peer towards the galactic centre and probe for a possible black hole there, measuring X-ray emmissions. Then, on the 6th day of the mission, the satellite will be picked up to be returned to Earth for a future flight. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dvinci!fisher From: fisher@dvinci.DEC Subject: New steering system Date: 4 Jun 85 12:56:31 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: DEC Engineering Network <> > NASA announced...that it is abandoning differential braking and will > install a new nosewheel steering system on all shuttles by October Can anyone comment on the implications of this decision? There must be some disadvantage, or it would have been done in the first place. Weight? Anything else? Also, where did the brakes go awry? Was the initial analysis wrong (regarding braking pressure required, etc) or do the brakes not meet the specs? Burns UUCP: ... {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dvinci!fisher ARPA: fisher%dvinci.dec@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!aicchi!dbb From: aicchi!dbb (Burch) Subject: Re: Re: Interstellar probes Date: 2 Jun 85 12:53:42 GMT Organization: Analysts International Corp; Chicago Branch As for how to slow a probe at target when you are using "solar" sails as propulsion: In a DOD report, Robert L. Forward proposed using a light sail that is in to segments, a large outer ring and a small inner circle. When departing, the two segments are used as a single sail. When decelerating, the large outer ring is dropped, and the spacecraft with small sail attached turns around. You then (Well, you actually start years before) turn on your earth based LASERs. The large outer ring acts as a mirror, and reflects the light from earth onto the probe's sail. Needless to say, the reflector sail departs the probe at a healthy acceleration, but they are both so far from earth that the subtended angle will not change much over the course of the deceleration program. As a sind note, the light reaching the small sail would be extremely redshifted... -Ben Burch AIC ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!cbosgd!osu-eddie!beslove From: osu-eddie!beslove (Adam Beslove) Subject: Re: ultralight probes Date: 1 Jun 85 12:12:50 GMT Reply-To: beslove@osu-eddie.UUCP (Adam Beslove) Organization: Ohio State Univ., CIS Dept., Cols, Oh. In article <3169@dartvax.UUCP> chuck@dartvax.UUCP (Chuck Simmons) writes: >> ...has anyone considerred the possibility of building >> a lightsail out of photo-electric material? There will be a large energy loss due to the inefficiency of present photo-electric materials. A recent break thru of 12% efficiency rings a bell, but I'm not certain. >Would it be possible to design a "fabric" consisting of carbon or silicon >atoms with various other kinds of atoms in between. The result would be >a molecule (in much the same way that a polymer is a molecule, except in >two dimensions) a few atoms thick. A well-designed fabric might contain >many itty-bitty holes, thus decreasing the density even further. > >*sigh* Maybe if I don't think about the problem of making a square sheet >of this fabric measuring a kilometer on a side, it will go away. >-- Chuck Assuming this sail would need to be assembled in space from terrestrial and extra-terestrial raw materials, the fabric idea makes sense. These materials can be extruded thru laser cut holes into a continuous thread, then densely woven into sail material. This material can then be stretched to it's desired size. Extrusion makes weaving easy in 0 g's, just aim, shoot, and stop flow after x meters have been extruded. The stuff will solidify pretty fast, too. With extruders on the x and y axis, weaving and extruding could take place simultaniously. The dimentions of the sheet wouldn't be tough, as the extrution equipment would be mostly insulated piping and could be designed modularly. Increase in sail size could be accomplished by addition of extrution modules to the loom. A problem I see with extrusion is regulating thread width. Am I wrong to assume that even if you extrude out of a very small hole, the stream will thicken a bit before it hardens? Could this be an advantage in that it would let us stretch the stuff out to our desired size? >>>>Adam Beslove (c)1985 (aka Odious Verity) ====================================================================== (UUCP: ...!cbosgd!osu-eddie!beslove) (CSNet: beslove@ohio-state) The world is my sandbox, (ARPA: beslove%ohio-state.csnet@CSNET-RELAY) humanity my playmates. ------------------------------ Date: 6-Jun-85 11:54 PDT From: William Daul / McDonnell-Douglas / APD-ASD Subject: Next Four Shuttle Launches To: SPACE@MIT-MC.arpa DOes anyone have the current launch dates and landing dates? I am thinking of going out to another landing at Edwards. In November of last year I sent a schedule of launches out...I was wondering if due to launch problems and cancellations earlier this year, if the schedule of launches has changed. Thanks, --Bi\\ ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Re: Progress of Shuttle Atlantis Date: 3 Jun 85 03:12:46 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill For general interest, OFP stands for Orbiter Processing Facility. Shuttles are processed there (for things like minor repairs, tiles, etc.) and then moved to the VAB for mating with the ET (external tank) and SRB's (solid rocket boosters) ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 85 11:58 PDT From: Ghenis.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Closed Universe and the Twin Paradox message of Thu, 6 Jun 85 10:31:41 pdt To: mcgeer%ucbkim@UCB-VAX.ARPA cc: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA,Ghenis.pasa@Xerox.ARPA >Wrongo. How did the twin leave the earth? How does he return? If >two world-lines become separated, then one or both had to accelerate; hence >one or both spend some time in non-inertial frames. Hence there roles are >asymmetric. > Sigh... I knew I should have been more explicit about the underlying assumptions. Here they are: 1) The thought experiment starts with the travelling twin already possesing an initial velocity v and passing by the stationary twin. Their clocks are synchronized at that moment. The rest of the thought experiment will deal with their delta times. 2) What you are saying is absolutely true in FLAT space-time. This is the domain of special relativity. General relativity goes beyond that, dealing also with CURVED space-time. Without going into details, just think about the fact that free-falling into a gravitational potential (ie. an astronaut floating inside an orbiting space shuttle) is indistinguishable from inertial travel in space (ie. the same astronaut floating inside an interstellar probe with velocity v. If there were no windows he would be unable to tell whether he was still on course or had been trapped into the orbit of some neutron star) The buzzwords CLOSED UNIVERSE (*) refer to the theory that overall, time-space in our universe is curved enough that any trajectory will eventually close. (The curvature coming from the gravitational field of the aggregate mass of everything in the universe), so that the light from a source will return to its point of origin some day. Even if the universe isn't flat it need not be closed, since it can be "hyperbolic" (I'm being a bit loose, but try thinking of the planets' elliptic orbits vs. a hyperbolic orbit that approaches once and leaves, never to return because it has more than the escape velocity for the local gravitational field) (*) Closed universe also refers to whether, within the Big Bang framework, the expansion of the universe will one day stop and contraction will start, giving an eventual "Big Crash", the cycle to be repeated eternally. An open universe would instead expand forever, slowing down but never stopping. If we can determine the total mass of the Universe, knowing the expansion rate we would have the answer to this since it is essentially an escape velocity problem. This certainly seems to be related to the original problem: would a closed universe in the Big Bang sense imply that the curvature of the universe's space-time is closed? ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!petrus!karn From: petrus!karn Subject: Re: Strange launch, and stranger announcements Date: 3 Jun 85 15:03:14 GMT Organization: Bell Communications Research, Inc Wonderful. You got to see a preview of the end of the world. Phil ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!sabre!zeta!epsilon!gamma!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!cbosgd!ukma!sean From: ukma!sean (Sean Casey) Subject: Re: interstellar probes Date: 4 Jun 85 18:16:52 GMT Reply-To: sean@ukma.UUCP (Sean Casey) Organization: The White Tower @ The Univ. of KY In article <2010@mordor.UUCP> @S1-A.ARPA,@MIT-MC.ARPA:king@Kestrel writes: >One way of getting close approaches to the planets and still not have >to decelerate is to have two probes; one would locate the planets and >radio the information to its parner, a MIRVed probe approximately a >year behind. The second prob has to be MIRVed because there is little >chance of catching even two planets with one probe; gravitational >manouvering doesn't work at .20C. I'm going to get flamed for being this picky, but MIRV stands for Multiple Independently targeted Reentry Vehicle. I don't think he had reentry in mind. -- - Sean Casey UUCP: {cbosgd,anlams,hasmed}!ukma!sean - Department of Mathematics ARPA: ukma!sean@ANL-MCS.ARPA - University of Kentucky ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!munck From: linus!munck (Robert Munck) Subject: Wanted: orbital mechanics program(s) Date: 6 Jun 85 02:05:19 GMT Reply-To: munck@linus.UUCP (Robert Munck) Organization: The MITRE Coporation, Bedford, MA Now that I have the big AT with the arithmetic processor and good graphics support, I'd like to put together something that will let me "play around" with orbiting bodies of various kinds. For example, I'd like to run a simulation of the Earth-Moon system with a "skyhook" or two in place. (skyhook: a cable anchored on the equator and extending to a weight at or beyond synchronous orbit; in effect, a bridge across the gravity well (I know, we don't have cables that strong yet.)) Another example: a long (hundreds of kilometers), thin structure in LEO, spinning in such a way that the ends dip into the upper atmosphere at relatively low speed. I don't want (yet) to simulate things like strength of materials, atmospheric friction, etc; just the mechanics of bodies with mass, shape, velocity, and spin, influencing each other through gravity. The ideal form would be FORTRAN (Pascal) subroutines that accept an array of current values and updates them for some small delta of time. It doesn't have to be accurate enough to predict planetary positions for the next 100,000 years, or efficient enough to handle all known solar bodies. This is basically the beginnings of a "SF Writer's Workbench". Given good code, I'd hand-compile it for the 8087 to get the best speed I can. (My "bridge across the gravity well" above isn't a very good analogy. Sorry.) -- Bob Munck, MITRE Corporation Munck@MITRE-Bedford.ARPA ...linus!bccvax!munck ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!hao!denelcor!lmc From: denelcor!lmc (Lyle McElhaney) Subject: shuttle mission in July? Date: 6 Jun 85 04:49:29 GMT Organization: Denelcor, Aurora, Colorado I had read here earlier this year that there was a mission scheduled on or about July 9th. Is it still on? Please mail replies to me. -- Lyle McElhaney {hao, stcvax, brl-bmd, nbires, csu-cs} !denelcor!lmc ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw From: rtp47!throopw (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Meeting in orbit -- A thought experiment Date: 5 Jun 85 22:34:54 GMT Organization: Data General, RTP, NC > From: Rick McGeer > > If you threw yourself into an escape orbit, you'd throw the rock into > an impact orbit. I think. > > Well, know, that's not quite true. Snce MV = MV, if the rock was very > large in mass compared with you (or if both you and the rock were in near-escape > orbits), you'd merely throw the rock into a lower orbit. Not quite. The ground rules state that you eject some mass (a large rock in this case) and acheive escape velocity. Now then, how do you get that the rock must be in a "lower orbit"? Starting with both you and the rock in the same orbit and assuming that the rock masses more than you do, if you throw the rock into an escape orbit with a velocity vector that points 180 degrees from your common vector, it seems to me that both you and the rock are liberated. Clearly, there are other situations where both you and the rock escape, or you escape and the rock has a "higher orbit" or whatnot, but this example shows with no quantitative calculations a situation that 1) has you in an escape orbit as requested, and 2) has the rock in an escape orbit also (which I take to be a "higher orbit"). Regarding "higher" or "lower" orbits, there is an interesting property of the orbit that results from a single impulse, such as the one applied to the rock in this situation. When you have this situation: - object is in orbit. - single impulse is applied to object. - object is then in (a possibly different) orbit. it must always be the case that *some* point on the new orbit is exactly as "high" as some point in the old orbit. In particular, P <= X <= A where P is the new perigee, A is the new apogee, and X is the height at the point of impulse. Note that even escape and impact orbits obey this rule. For escape orbits, A=infinity and P<=X, and for an impact orbit, P=0 and A>=X. (for the quick thinker: which of the above listed three conditions is not necessary to show the result P <= X <= A ?) -- Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC !mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!princeton!astrovax!escher!doug From: escher!doug (Douglas J Freyburger) Subject: Re: Mars rumor Date: 5 Jun 85 22:20:42 GMT Organization: NASA/JPL, Pasadena, CA > From: Robert.Aarhus@CMU-CS-SPICE > At a national Metallurgical Science convention, it was > announced that photographs from the Viking lander revealed > what appeared to be a pyramidal rock formation with "a > face on it" (this is where I became *real* skeptical); > > Now a rock formation, perhaps, but a Pyramid with a face? > Does anyone know if this thing has been observed (maybe just > a photographic artifact?), and if so, why the media hasn't A couple months ago, the JPL employee's newssheet "The JPL Universe" had a pictorial of several photos like that. A lunar crater with a smiley face, a little Mars mountain with an ice-hockey goalie mask, cracks in Ganymede shaped like a mouse, etc. There were about a dozen all told, and some had to be explained before you got the joke. The best part of the Martian face is that one of the "eyes" was a pixel drop-out during transmission, and the other was a fairly recent crater. Computer image enhancement had sharpened one, and blurred the other. The algorthyms do that to bit drop-outs usually. The claim of a "Great Pyramid" is one I haven't heard about yet, though. Sounds like fun. Let's go play Napolean, and strip off the top layer of limestone as convient building material for our colonies housing! DOUG@JPL-VLSI, doug@aerospace, ...!trwrb!escher!doug, etc. Douglas J Freyburger, JPL 171-243, Pasadena, CA 91109 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!utastro!ethan From: utastro!ethan (Ethan Vishniac) Subject: Re: Re: twin paradox Date: 6 Jun 85 22:00:56 GMT Organization: U. Texas, Astronomy, Austin, TX > From: Charles.Fineman@CMU-CS-SPICE > > > The key to the twin paradox is that the travelling twin goes on a ROUND > > TRIP, so his frame of reference is an ACCELERATED FRAME (you cannot > > return to Earth without changing direction, and you cannot change > > direction without acceleration) whereas the stationary twin has an > > INERTIAL FRAME. This is what makes their frames of reference > > non-equivalent, thereby they will experience time differently. > > What if we assume that the universe is closed? Then it would be possible to > return to earth without changing your accelration. What happens then? Propagation in curved space requires the application of General Relativity. In this case the answer is that it isn't possible to circumnavigate the universe travelling at less than the speed of light between the the Big Bang and the Big Crunch (chomp). However travelling *at* the speed of light it is just possible. In which case no time at all passes for the traveler and the entire history of the universe goes by for the stay at home. Why? Well basically the equivalence of all uniformly moving frames does not apply in a curved space. All that you are guaranteed is that *locally* the laws of physics will be the same for the two. However, the shape and evolution of the universe are perceived differently by the two observers. -- "Don't argue with a fool. Ethan Vishniac Borrow his money." {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan Department of Astronomy University of Texas ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!pesnta!pertec!felix!tom From: felix!tom (Tom Lockwood) Subject: What's happening on the solstice? Date: 4 Jun 85 16:09:32 GMT Organization: FileNet Corp., Costa Mesa, Ca. I heard on an (unknown name) PBS television show that the solstice will occur on June 21 at 6:44 a.m. EST. And there is something going on which everyone can be involved. Would this be some kind of personal sighting in which the data would be collected? Tom Lockwood FileNet Corp. Costa Mesa, Ca. "Or, do we hop on one foot and pat our head?" ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #182 ******************* 08-Jun-85 0351 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #183 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 183 Today's Topics: general space information Re: Twin Paradox planetary computations Mock Countdown Successful Robert Forward ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Thu, 6 Jun 85 12:51:12 PDT To: crash!noscvax!space@mit-mc Subject: general space information From: NASA/News Service Subj: heat dissipation technology Even with long term manned presence in space still in its infancy, a host of promising opportunities have been identified which employ the natural vacuum and microgravity conditions available in space. A few problems also have been discovered and NASA's Lewis Res Center is addressing one of the particularly troublesome ones: how to dissipate heat that builds up inside a spacecraft so that a constant and livable temperature can be maintained for the astronauts who must live and work onboard. Currently, heat removal is accomplished through the use of a heavy, bulky, rigid metal heat transfer system. New technology being developed by Lewis would use the surface of a liquid coolant to radiate away excess heat, thus saving as much as 90 percent of the current hardware weight. And weight is an expensive commodity in space flight operations. Called a liquid droplet radiator, the concept is based on exposing a moving stream of hot droplets, the diameter of a human hair, directly into space, allowing the heat to radiate from the surface of the droplets. The droplets would be ejected from a generator to a collector. At the collector, the droplets would rejoin to for a liquid, in much the same way that droplets of window spray reunite to become a liquid on the window surface. The coolant then would be recirculated and reused. Essential is selection or development of a heat transfer fluid with proper vapor pressure and sufficient long life to permit extended reuse. Crucial has been development of micromachining to produce holes as small as .002 inches in diam. ** Debra Rahn HQ and John M. Shaw Lewis Res Center. ********************** From: NASA/News Service Subj: Sci & Tech Info Fac RMS Associates, Landover, MD., has been selected for negotiations leading to award of a contract for the operation and maintenance of the NASA scientific and technical information facility (STIF), lcoated near the Baltimore/ Washington International Airport, Baltimore, MD. The 1 yr. contract will commence July 1, 1985, preceded by a 1 month phase in period. The contract will include provisions for two 1 yr priced option extensions Two additional 1 yr unpriced options are anticipated. The RMS Associates' estiamted value of the 1 yr contract is approximately $5 million, with a total of approximately $15 million for the first 3 yrs. The contractor will be responsible for: acquiring and processing documents and data approved by NASA for entry into the NASA collection; cataloging, abstracting, indexing and announcing these materials; providing dissemination service; offering a supporting reference service; compiling specialized bibliographies; and providing other technical support. NASA STIF is responsible for acquiring, organizing, processing and storing worldwide aerospace information including published articles, papers, books and reports. Other firms submitting proposals were Planning Research Corp./Government Information Systems, McLean, VA., the Incumbent Systems Development Corp., McLean, VA.; M/A-COM, Sigma Data Services Corp., Rockville, MD.; and Science Management Corp., Landover, MD. ** Barbara Selby HQ ***************** From: NASA/News Service Subj: Structural Framework - Space Station NASA has selected McDonnell Douglas Astronautics Co., a California division of McDonnell Douglas Corp., St. Louis, and Rockwell Intl., Space Station Systems Division, Downey, Calif., for fixed price awards for definition and preliminary design (phase b) of the structural framework and other elements of a permanently manned space station. The contracts will be managed by NASA's Johnson Space Center, Houston. work on the contracts will extend for 21 months. Industry teams selected for negotiations for the definition and preliminary design of other space station elements were announced by NASA on march 14. The Johnson contracts will cover definition and preliminary design of the structural framework to which the various elements of the space station will be attatched; interface between the space station and the space shuttle; mechanisms such as the remote manipulator systems; attitude control, thermal control, communications and data management systems; plan for equipping a module with sleeping quarters, wardroom and galley; and plan for extravehicular activity. the request for proposals indicated the value of each of the contracts could be $27 million. In 1984, NASA began the development of a permanently manned space station pursuant to the directive in the state of the union address from President Reagan. ** Barbara Selby HQ. *********** From: NASA/News Service Subj: space astronomy experiments NASA has selected the first participants in a program to assimilate the discoveries from a series of space astronomy experiments into a comprehensive modern astrophysical theory. The new reserch is expected to generate more effective use of future experiments including the hubble space telescope, the gamma ray observatory, the solar optical telescope and similar projects still in planning. Seven groups were selected- 49 proposals from 80 institutions, involving nearly 300 people - making competition truly national in scope. Dr. R. McCray and a team from U. of Colorado will study detailed ways in which spectra form in a variety of astrophysical sources such as stars, supernovae and active galactic nuclei. Spectra, or the pattern of radiation from these sources, carry information about the physical conditions of the object. The spectra includes radio, infrared, optical, uv and x-ray radiation. Dr. J. Ostriker and colleagues from Princeton U. will analyze the most distant observable parts of the universe. Because of the finite speed of light, distant objects are seen as they existed long ago. Looking back in time by observing light from very distant galaxies and quasars, scientists can study the "big bang" that theoretically occurred in the early history of the universe. The sun will be studied by a team from Yale U., led by Dr. P. deMarque. They will develop computer models of the sun - magnetic fields, sun spots, solar flares and solar wind. Dr. Roger Chevalier and a team from the U. of VA. will study the very hot gases that appear to surround clusters of galaxies, individual galaxies and supernova remnants. The team will seek to understand the origin and motion of the gas as well as its effect on the development of galaxies. Dr. Ronald Taam and colleagues from Northwestern U. will study the origin of rapid bursts of high energy radiation from neutron stars and globular clusters. they hope to model the ignition, nuclear evolution and propagation of burning fronts on surfaces of neutron stars and to understand the nature of hot plasma confinement in magnetic fields near such subjects. Dr. David Black heads a scientific team from NASA's AMES Research Center, Mountain View, Calif. and the U. of CA., Santa Cruz and Berkeley campuses, that will investigate various physical and chemical prosesses involved in the formation of stars. They will concentrate on the stars' origins in giant molecular clouds in interstellar space and the protostellar / protoplanetary disk-shaped nebulae surrounding fledgling stars. A series of questions regarding star and planet formation will be studied by a team of scientists from the U. of Arizona, headed by Dr. Simon White. their research will include properties of star forming regions, galaxy formation and evolution. they will use methods from the study of hydrodynamics, plasma physics, radiative transfer, atomic and molecular physics and physical cosmology. Most of the teams will use supercomputers in their studies. The researchers will be brought together in 1986 to exchange information and to foster a greater understanding of the advances that science has achieved. ** Leon Perry HQ ************************ From: NASA/News Service Subj: water hyacinth a new image The water hyacinth, long fought as a weed that clogged streams and lakes, is destined to become a force in the battle against water polution as a result of NASA research. Brought to the U.S. in 1884 by the Japanese as part of the New Orleans cotton states expo. The plants were given away as souvenirs and thrown away into drainage canals. The plant grew at an explosive rate. Studies now show that under controlled conditions the hyzcinth is ideal for domestic and industrial water purification. Ground into fertilizer they can be used to produce biogas and fiber to produce large quantities of fresh water. Dr. Billy Wolverton PhD, sen res sci, and Rebecca Mcdonald, res chem, NASA nat spc tech lab found in their studies the hyacinth also shows promise for partially supplying oxygen, food, pure water and waste treatment in space. A waste water treatment system using the research is in operation at NSTL in Fla, TX, & CA. An advanced natural waste water process that combines anaerobic microbial filter technology with the vascular plant wastewater treatment technology to produce an efficient hybrid system has been developed. The systems has the advantage that wastewater is exposed to the atmosphere only after treatment, higher chemical concentrations can be tolerated because of the higher surface microbial filter. Recent concerns about the discharge of phenol were handled by the new technique. Thanks to NASA research, the dreaded water hyacinth is forming a new image. Instead of the uncontrollable aquatic monster it has been for a hundred years, it is emerging as a large scale candidate for large scale nutrient removal and water purification systems. The hyacinth will help man sustain an acceptable quality of life here on earth and in the remoteness of space. ** Leon Perry HQ. ********************* From: NASA/News Service Subj: NASA laser finds use in medicine NASA has adopted a laser originally designed to measure gases in the atmosphere to the task of cleaning out clogged arteries without harming the walls of the blood vessels. The technique could eliminate some coronary bypass surgery. Physicians at La Cedar Sinai Med Center and laser, JPL scientists teamed together to develop the system. Physicians Warren Grundfest, Frank Litvack & James Forrester, conducting research into the potential of lasers in cardiology, sought a more precise & cooler laser than those in use by medicine. The excimer developed by James Laudenslager, Thomas Pacala, Stuart Mcdermid and David Rider met the need. Working with physician and fiber optics consultant Dr. Tsvi Goldenberg, the team refined the laser for delicate cardiovascular cleaning. Lasers are used in many medical applications requiring precision cutting or welding. Use in cardiovascular research is new since misdirection can perforate delicate artery walls...tissue cells can withstand up to 154 degrees f. the excimer laser never reacher higher than 149 f (428-500 f other lasers). Glass magnetic switched (JPL), the xenon chloride excimer laser can be made to produce a uniform beam of energy that can be pulsed from 10 to 200 billionths of a second threading a 1.5 mm catheter through coronary arteries; the laser is one of 3 bundles of fibers. Another shines a light; a third is a lens for video pictures of the inside of the artery. Clear fluid is used to flush the artery of blood, allowing a clearer picture. Typical tests have taken 2 minutes. While properly cautious, the researchers are encouraged by initial testing on animals, cadavers and removed arteries of heart patients. ** Azeezaly Jaffer HQ. ****************** From: NASA/News Service Subj: NASA helps archaelogy Satellite imaging and remote sensing technology will be used to probe the tropical andean jungles for archaelogical remains in peru's rio abiseo natl park. NASA's nat spc technology lab (nstl) in Mississippi, will colaborate in the project with the anthropology dept. of the U. of Colorado. Jerry Hlass, Nstl Center Dir. and Dr. Hearth, kir of spc sci and tech for U. of C, have signed a memorandum of understanding for the investigation. Archeological interests in the park include the ancient site of gran patajen, the subtropical cloud forest and the park's diverse ecology. Data from landsat earth resources satellite will be combined with information gathered by a specially equipped aircraft from nstl. Sophisticated instrumentation will allow researchers to "see" through the dense vegetation to locate evidence of past settlements in the now uninhabited region. Interesting geographical features and variations in vegetation may be observed and mapped. When cultural resources are identified through image analysis of the 1,060 square miles, it will be checked out on the ground. NASA's interest is expansion of the use of space technology. Thomas Sever, a NASA remote sensing specialist and archeologist at nstl, will provide support for 1 year. Starting in June will be NASA, the university and a remote sensing team at peru's nat. agrarian U. in Lima. The project is one of three archeological investigations being supported by NASA. others are volcanic destruction of cities and vegetation in Costa Rica; and support of the Richard Leaky foundation in their search for evidence of human evolution in Kenya, Africa. ** Jim Kukowski HQ and Mack Herring NSTL ******* From: NASA/News Service Subj: satellite rescue planned NASA and hughes aircraft company have agreed to develop jointly plans for a space shuttle mission to attempt to salvage the hughes leasat 3 satellite in orbit. the technically complex salvage attempt will provide an opportunity to extend the shuttle's demonstrated capability to rendezvous with and salvage satellites in space. The salvage attempt will take place under the terms of an agreement being negotiated by NASA and hughes communications, inc. Negotiations with the underwriters insuring leasat 3 have been conducted by Hughes in N.Y. and London. Agreement has been reached with Lloyd's and other european underwriters to proceed with the attempted salvage. Negotiations are continuing with the american underwriters. The mission is presently planned for shuttle flight 51-I (targeted for Aug 24). This date marks the opening of the window for rendezvous with leasat. The leasat 3 satellite is currently drifting in low earth orbit without command or telemetry capability. No specific cause for the satellites failure has been determined. The salvage plan involves modification of the satellite during rendezvous by two of the shuttle crew to permit ground command of the satellite. The modification will bypass all hardware likely to have been the cause of the failure. In its dormant state the satellite is experiencing temperatures well below the design and test limits of the liquid and solid propellent system, electronics unit, batteries and other components. This and other factors limit the chances of success. LEASAT 4 will be launched during the same flight. A success for 3 and 4 would fulfill hughes commitments to the navy. ** Sarah Keegan HQ and Elizabeth Hess Hughes Communication, Inc. ******************** From: NCAR Information Subj: wimps and the solar mystery You wouldn't expect that wimp's could effect anything as powerful as the sun, but astrophysicists at NCAR and Univ of Calif at Santa Cruz think otherwise. They have found that smidgen of wimps - weakly interacting massive particles - can alter the sun's central conditions, and in doing so could resolve a puzzle that has bedeviled astronomers for years. The findings have recently become more than just a scientific curiousity because developments in particle physics suggest that wimpy particles may indeed exist. If so, wimps offer an explanation for the shortage of neutrinos coming from the sun. previously a total mystery. UC Prof of Astronomy and Astrophysics, John Faulkner, along with Ronald Gilliland, NCAR astronomer, created detailed computer models of the sun and demonstrated that a small number of wimps effectively lowers the temperature at the sun's center. this in turn inhibits one of the nuclear reactions taking place deep inside the sun, one that is important because it produces the brand of neutrinos that we can detect here on earth. Neutrinos, so called "ghost particles" interact so seldom with other matter that they can zip through millions of miles of solid material. those released by the sun's nuclear reactions stream clean out of the sun and off into space, passing through nearly everything they encounter. By contrast, photons - particles of light - bounce around inside the sun for millions of years before reaching the sun's surface and escaping to space. Astronomers have detected only one third as many solar neutrinos as their theories predict, but it isn't for lack of looking. For almost two decades a special neutrino detector has sat deep in a gold mine in South Dakota, where it is protected from extraneous radiation. "The solar neutrino telescope acts on earth as a thermometer for the center of the sun". it consists of 100,000 gallons of perchlor-ethylene, a cleaning solvent. Solar neutrinos hitting it result in a chlorine atom changing to argon. These are later counted. The large volume is to grab some of the rare interacting neutrinos. Eexperiments always spot fewer than are predicted by theories of the sun's nuclear reactions, perplexing astronomers. The wimp which only effects the center of the sun and does not carry disastrous consequences for other regions is a potential answer. Wimps can travel partway from the sun's center before banging into another particle. they offer a means of redistribution of the energy within the sun. By picking up energy in the extreme conditions and depositing it in a shallower region, they can smooth out the sharp peak in temperature that computer models indicate exists in the sun's innermost volume. A small swing in temperature greatly effects nuclear reactions producing neutrinos detectable on the earth. The result is less neutrinos on the earth reconciling theory and observation. Particle physicist, have recently proposed "supersymmetry theories" that predict particles that would match the wimp. In particular the "photino", supersymmetrical to the photon is a potential wimp. Spurred by these and other findings, Faulkner and Gilliland have submitted their calculations to the astrophysical journal. ** John Gustafson Lick Observatory and Joan Frisch NCAR ************************ >from the intercomex bulletin board (303)-367-1935 note: please forgive the all caps, this information comes from a general information board which is made available to large and small computer users at no cost.. because of this messages are only available in all caps...this information is being put into the network inorder to not just take information from the net... i hope it is worthwhile enough to bear with the all caps m.f return adress:crash!usiiden!markf@nosc [I have fixed up the capitalization of this a bit. -The Moderator] ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!hao!noao!terak!doug From: terak!doug (Doug Pardee) Subject: Re: Twin Paradox Date: 6 Jun 85 16:43:53 GMT Organization: Terak Corporation, Scottsdale, AZ, USA Here's what you've been waiting for, comments from someone who doesn't have any real knowledge of the subject... What I had heard was that the key is "acceleration". Acceleration is not relative. Although you can't tell visually whether you are acclerating away from a point, or it's accelerating away from you, or some combinations of accelerations is at work, you can certainly tell if you're accelerating, and how much, by the G-forces that you feel. Is it not the acceleration that causes the change in time reference? -- Doug Pardee -- Terak Corp. -- !{ihnp4,seismo,decvax}!noao!terak!doug ^^^^^--- soon to be CalComp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jun 85 9:10:12 EDT From: Scott A. Knudsen (MISD-PMD) To: space@Mit-Mc.ARPA cc: sknudsen@Ardc.ARPA Subject: planetary computations I know this is not a discussion type submission, but I would appreciate any information on calculating the positions of the planets( even only the major ones) so that I could write a program for these. Scott Knudsen (sknudsen@ardc.arpa) ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Mock Countdown Successful Date: 6 Jun 85 23:41:42 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill The crew of the Discovery today successfully completed a mock countdown in preparation for the 17 June launch. Lift off is scheduled for 0733 EDT. Landing is set at EAFB on 24 June. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jun 85 22:22:21 PDT From: Richard K. Jennings To: space@mit-mc Subject: Robert Forward Several comments have been made to Robert Forwards ideas on Space Travel, and that he is the USAF's leading authority on this matter. I am not sure that he is the USAF's leading authority on this matter, but he sure is prolific. Recently I sent away to a company claiming information on antigravity drives. Based upon their information, I became interested enough to write a paper on antigravity drives for one of my courses at AFIT. Robert Forward has written several articles on these as well, mainly in physical journals, and I think he had an article in Omni a few years back. The basic consensus of the literature I dug up was that antigravity (not antimatter) drives *are* physically possible, and an effort such as that required to usher in nuclear weapons might yield fruitful results. If anybody out there was around in the late 50's, just about *all* the big defense contractors had efforts in this area, under the heading "electrogravitics" (or something close). Richard Jennings AF Satellite Control Facility arpa: jennings@aerospace ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #183 ******************* 09-Jun-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #184 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 184 Today's Topics: Launch Loops Starprobe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Jun 85 16:06:44 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Launch Loops To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A If Keith Lofstrom is still around, I'd like to let him know his name just showed up in Frederick Pohl's "Heechee Rendezvous" as the late twentieth century inventor of the very important Lofstrom Loop. Nice to know you're famous in future history, Keith? ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 85 16:16:46 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Starprobe To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A On the intersteller probe problem, there seem to be some very interesting ideas floating around. Has anybody considered setting it up as a private venture with largely volunteer labor and donated equipment? I will agree in advance that it may not be possible (under our current system) of doing it TOTALLY this way, but I'll bet that ALL the design work, the probe construction and instrumentation and the orbital calculations could be done by (pun intended) moonlighting. Propulsion system construction and testing would probably require government funding simply because of the NATURE of the technologies involved, as percieved by the DOD. But lets try a thought experiment. You guys at Los Alamos: start designing the engine. You know how to do it and you've got the resources laying around at your finger tips, whether it be antimatter, pellet fusion or lasers for the sail. If it's a sail, talk the guys over at JPL: I think a bunch of them are ALREADY moonlighting with WSF working on sails. AMES: I'll bet there are a few of you who know how to get access to big machines for REAL course calculations. And if you need better data on the intersteller navigation, I'm sure there are more than a few astronmers on this net with access to the largest scopes and the most sensitive instruments. Not to mention all the planetary people out there who certainly know EXACTLY what instrumentation they'd want to send to another star system (preferably another solar system). I suspect we'll have some good targets within a few years at the current rate of progress in the search for extrasolar planets. Hopefully immediately after the MAP flies. And I'll bet there'd be a few particle physicists around who'd love to work on the problem and run a few seriptitious tests tagged onto what is otherwise a grant on pure research. Coordination might be somewhat of a problem, but the advantage of a network is that you can quickly come to see who really knows what is going on, so I suspect an organization would form itself by consensus. Mistakes get corrected by someone else just simply doing the work and replacing the erroneously selected major node, once again by consensus. Path redundancy and dynamic reconfiguration are pretty much automatic within networks of human beings. The possibilities are endless. I might add that there is a group of us in Pittsburgh trying to encourage exactly this kind of thinking. Stop talking about these things and waiting for big brother to do them, and start networking yourselves and finding out just how much power and resources a network has at it's disposal. It can be awesome. Without the constraints of beauracracy, you can probably move faster moonlighting that an old fashioned hierarchical organization can operate with full time employees. You also gain a great deal of otherwise lost time by the fact that politics are a waste of time on a network, because those who waste their time on it simply get bypassed and ignored, as may soon happen to our entire government beauracracy. In large hierarchical organizations, large numbers of employees spend nearly full time efforts on internal politics. They are able to do so because they stand astride information channels and are able to feed information and responsibility when and where it will do them the most good. In voluntary networks such control of information and responsibilities is not possible. I firmly believe we are about to see the birth of (take a deep breath) pseudo-random self-organizing human systems with goal-seeking behavior. Those who believe in centralized power will not believe such are possible until it is too late for them to save the old ways. Even if you tell such people what is coming they won't give it credence, so there is no worry in operating openly. Admittedly there is a shortcoming in that transmission of blueprints and diagrams is not easily available. But such should not be long in coming. If not on ARPA, then on some of the PC nets that are rapidly interconnecting the country. We in Pittsburgh L5 are currently working on such a private network (NOT with graphics!!!!) as it is our feeling that the ARPANET, as a government funded operation, may not be the appropriate place for such private research networks. It is also not a secure network, in the sense of providing for guaranteed private mail transfers between individuals. I will say, (sadly) that 5 years is too short a timeframe for getting a starprobe launched. But it's not too early to start looking at something like this. I suspect the computer and communications infrastructure required for a distributed all volunteer star probe R&D team is really just around the corner. I'd propose the following as a 'run it up the flagpole' schedule: 1985-1987: Creation of networked design team Design/creation of tools and procedures for distributed project management Generation of requirements document Research on new technology propulsion systems 1988-1990: Total switchover to private network Selection of target star Detail study/evaluation of possible orbits/courses to target(s) Finalize probe design Begin collecting/building probe instrumentation by scrounging. (ie. beg/borrow/ahem) Semi Coordinated tests of concepts identified in earlier theoretical studies of new technology propulsion systems. Identify what is required for proof-of-concept. 1990-1993 Finalize decision on propulsion system Begin construction of probes, hopefully with foundation grants and tax writeoff money from large corporations. Begin lobbying congress for full scale test of selected engine. This is possibly the most difficult phase, because NASA will prefer to do all the research over again, at massive cost, rather than build and test from the blueprints. I'd love suggestions since this is the most SF part of the whole scheme. 1993-1998 Construction and testing of full scale engine prototypes. 1998-2000 Mating of probe with propulsion system and launch. This is a straw man schedule, so have fun with it. You don't need orders from on high, you only need to decide it is important. Then you start doing it, a free association of free scientists and engineers. Don't try to convince the Proxmire's of the world. Screw them and do it yourself. As for myself, I am particular interested in, and in fact have a volunteer team already looking at the segment noted as: Design/creation of tools and procedures for distributed project management Any ideas in this area are extremely welcome. Please cc: garbee@cmu-cs-g on anything in this area. Ad Astra!!! Dale Amon ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 85 16:31:36 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #184 ******************* 11-Jun-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #185 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 185 Today's Topics: Re: shuttle mission in July? Eyefelt Thanks ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!uwvax!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Re: shuttle mission in July? Date: 10 Jun 85 03:50:03 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill There is a launch scheduled for 14 July. ------------------------------ Date: Mon 10 Jun 85 22:11:04-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Eyefelt Thanks To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA Thanks to our Moderator, for changing the NASA messages into readable lower-case text. Since those guys are wedded to such obsolete technology as ASR-33 teletypes and space propulsion systems that move by throwing stuff out the back, couldn't we at least cobble together a computer program to mitigate the former difficulty? Robert Firth ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #185 ******************* 12-Jun-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #186 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 186 Today's Topics: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #185 general space information Twin Paradox ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 11 Jun 85 11:12:47-EDT From: "J. Noel Chiappa" Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #185 To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: JNC@MIT-XX.ARPA "obsolete technology as ... space propulsion systems that move by throwing stuff out the back" Ahem. If you know of some way to move something that DOESN'T involve 'throwing something off the back' (including photons), please step up and collect your Nobel prize (not to mention one trillion stars from the Outsiders!). (I except using electro-magnetic repulsion/attraction drives; such things are possible now, albeit difficult. We have no way to create charge and no magnetic monopoles; dipoles generate little push in fields with little gradient. I would think that the main thing is that the E/M fields in space are too irregular to use as something to push against.) You're right; dragging up a lot of mass just to throw it off the back end is the Wrong Thing, but at the moment it's still the only thing.... Noel ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 11 Jun 85 11:44:54 PDT To: crash!noscvax!space@mit-mc Subject: general space information FROM: NASA/NEWS SERVICE SUBJ: NASA AND ESA NASA administrator James Beggs and the Director General of the European Space Agency (ESA), Dr. Reimar Luest, signed a memorandum of understanding for the conduct of a cooperative program concerning detailed definition and preliminary design (PHASE B) of a permanently manned space station. This follows the invitation of the President of the U.S. to, Europe, Canada, and Japan to cooperate in the development, operation and use of the permanently manned space station. * The agreement provides for interaction and information exchange during the next 2 years. ESA will Study a pressurized module that could be used as a manned laboratory, free flying experiment platforms for both low inclination and polar orbits with electric power and cooling and stabilizing systems, and a resources module. ESA studies also will cover ground facilities for mission preparation and support, and a data transmission system. * The cost of the Phase B studies carried out by European industry under ESA management, together with corresponding technology program, amounts to 80 million accounting units. At 1985 exchange rates, one accounting unit equals 80 cents, bringing the current estimate to $64 million. NASA has already signed agreements with Canada and Japan. * Cooperation during the development, operations and utilization phase will require separate agreements. * M. WAGGONER HQ --------------------- FROM: NASA/NEWS SERVICE SUBJ: GOES CONTRACTOR NASA has selected Ford Aerospace and Communications Corp. to negotiate a cost plus award fee contract for the next generation of geostationary operational environmental satellites (GOES). * FORD'S total proposed cost for the basic three spacecraft effort (GOES I, J AND K) and for a two spacecraft option (GOES L AND M) is approximately $221 million. The contract will provide for a series of GOES satellite systems, each with a 5 YR design life.* Launch of the first GOES satellite in the new series is scheduled for late 1989. * The statement of work covers the satellite bus imaging, sounding and space environment monitor instruments; PLS necessary flight support equipment and services to effect successful deployment of the spacecraft into geosynchronous orbit from the Shuttle. * It also includes operations ground equipment and support to ensure compatibility of the spacecraft system with established ground systems operated by NOAA. The spacecraft will provide for the continuation of NOAA's Geostationary Operational Environmental Satellite Program in the 1990-2000 era. * A major subcontractor on the project, ITT Aerospace Corp. will produce the imaging and sounding instruments. * NASA Goddard SFC has been assigned project responsibility. * Leon Perry HQ & J. ELLIOT GSF ------------ from the Intercomex Bulletin Board (303)-3671935 Mark Felton crash!usiiden!markf@nosc ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-lebeef!seltzer From: seltzer@lebeef.DEC Subject: Twin Paradox Date: 11 Jun 85 13:40:20 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: DEC Engineering Network "accelerated (non-inertial) reference frames don't count in special relativity" But the Earth, revolving around the Sun, is an accelerated reference frame. Isn't it? So what does count? Has a human being ever been anywhere that would be considered an inertial reference frame? ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #186 ******************* 13-Jun-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #187 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 187 Today's Topics: Los Alamos and antigrav "Throwing Stuff Out The Back" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Jun 85 17:59:02 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Los Alamos and antigrav To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A I would appreciate it if someone at Los Alamos would comment on the theory behind an experiment they are reported to be in progress on. The report was in the 6/10 Space Calendar, and states that they are going to look for antigravity effects on antiprotons. The antiprotons will be cooled to near absolute zero and slowly bled into a test chamber where they will be examined for subtle gravitational effects. Is this related to supersymmetry theories, or is it just thought the a time reversed particle should show a time reversed reaction to a gravitational field (why I wouldn't pretend to guess). I guess I'm really asking, do you guys have a good reason for thinking there might REALLY be such an effect, or is it a "What the hell, try it and see what happens" type of experiment? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 85 20:01:48 PDT From: Richard K. Jennings To: space@mit-mc Subject: "Throwing Stuff Out The Back" If we use a Hydrogen (or perhaps stellar) ramjet, we wouldn't have to carry the mass a long. Barring an enlighted government which understands, and funds, the importance of electrogravitics, the only way man can approach light speed in the near future is by some type of ram-jet technology. For the record, another approach worth consideration is to build a huge solar sail which is very rugged and resistant to heat, and fly very close to the sun. Another technique which does not require the expenditure of ship energy to accelerate propellant. I would conclude that in the context of this star probe discussion, "throwing stuff out the back" (that you have carried along) *is* obsolete in contrast to Noel Chiappa's comments. Rich. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #187 ******************* 14-Jun-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #188 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 188 Today's Topics: Space propulsion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu 13 Jun 85 10:00:34-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Space propulsion To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: evans@TL-20B.ARPA, firth@TL-20B.ARPA Here is a short list of ideas for space propulsion systems that don't rely on taking stuff along and throwing it out the back. They range from the serious to the silly, and they are all based on recollections of other people's work. (1) Dean drive. The assumption is that Newton's Third Law is wrong, and some combination of cams, levers, balls, cogwheels and electric drills will exhibit spontaneous motion. The problem is that people seem to have studied Dean drives quite extensively and they really don't work. This represents in my view the "silly" end of the spectrum All other systems rely on using something already out there. We have four choices (2) Bussard ramjet. That is, we use the mass found in space as fuel or reaction mass. The main problems are that the mass so dilute that we need fairly large scoops to collect it. But that is an engineering problem, not one of principle. This is I think the system most likely to work. (3) Light sail. The trouble is, there isn't enough light. We need either an enormous sail or some space-based lasers. I don't like the idea of space-based lasers - too dangerous and too much a "brute force" solution. (4) Magnetic propulsion. Useful only for the inner system, ie within the solar magnetosphere. The energy is there, it's just a question of harnessing it somehow. (5) Gravitic propulsion. This one is really way out. Currently, we have absolutely no idea how to interact with a gravity field in any controlled manner. The interaction must be possible - inded, Hawking radiation is created by the breakdown of the vacuum under intense gravitic stress - but we lack an adequate theory. Also, it's not clear what the energy flux would be. If you believe Mach's principle, then a ship could use the entire mass of the universe to power a gravity drive. Frankly, I'd like to see work on all four of the above. Or do we wait for an outsider ship to sell us one in exchange for Jupiter? Robert Firth ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #188 ******************* 15-Jun-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #189 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 189 Today's Topics: SPACE Digest V5 #188 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1985 11:18 EDT From: MINSKY%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC Cc: SPACE@MIT-MC Subject: SPACE Digest V5 #188 The Dean Drive was a mistake. Shortly after it was described, I magnified a photograph of it and identified the model number of the Sears Roebuck bathroom scale used to measure the 15% reduction in weight of the equipment when it was turned on and started vibrating. Roland Silver, Claude Shannon, and I bought the same model scale and discovered that it had a diode-like mechanical linkage between the meter and the platform. It was easy to stand on the same scale and reduce one's own weight by shaking one's fist up and down. We explained all this to John Campbell, editor of Astounding Magazine, who had published the original announcement. He was angry and said that conventional scientists would always stand in the way of progress. -- minsky ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #189 ******************* 16-Jun-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #190 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 190 Today's Topics: Antigravity References Disocvery Rolled to Pad Re: Mars rumor Re: Wanted: orbital mechanics program(s) Re: Twin paradox ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 Jun 85 12:37:58 PDT From: Richard K. Jennings To: space@mit-mc Subject: Antigravity References Conventional Science does not completely preclude antigravitic devices. Some of the following references into the field are to literature published by researchers, both theoretical and applied, who admit to its possibility. *** Some References on Antigravity *** 1. Allais, Maurice FC (Director of Research, Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, Ecole Nationale Superieur des Mines, Paris) "Should the Laws of Gravitation be Reconsidered?", Aero/Space Engineering, Sept 1959 p46-52, Oct 1959 p51-55, Nov 1959 p55. This describes in some detail some experiments done by the author which seem to indicate that gravity oscillates with a period of 24 hours, 50 minutes with a magnitude of 10e-6g. He then takes this result and, with other referenced anomalies, attempts to make the case that a new theory of gravity should be developed. His experimental results are either forged or are very interesting. Since he seems unaware of relativistic considerations, his analysis is interesting but benign. 2. Cleaver, AV FRAeS Fellow (Assistant Cheif Engineer, Aero Engine Division, Rolls Royce Ltd) "Electro-Gravitics: What it is or might be", Journal of the British Interplanetary Society, Vol 16, No2, Apr-Jun 1957 p84-94. This is the response of a crusty old Brit to a radical new concept from the "Americans" which just might be possible but is much more apt to be much ado about nothing. This article does catalog some of the American participants. 3. Ebershaw, Bernard C. (Mailorder Publisher) Antigravity Propulsion Devices, R&D Associates Inc (PO Box S73, Concord NC 28025), 1980. Consists of a brief enumeration of some of the ideas behind antigravity devices, a bibliography, and copies of some of the better known antigravity patents. 4. Forward, Robert L. (Hughes Research Laboratories, Malibu CA) "Guidelines to Antigravity", American Journal of Physics, Vol 31, Mar 1963 p166-70. This author is quite prolific, and has written articles on gravity for both the technical and lay journals (OMNI) on this topic. His views are founded upon applied theoretical physics, and he is quite conservative with his claims. This particular article is primarily concerned with the mechanisms to mechnaically generate non-Newtonian gravitational fields. 5. Gerartin, Lucien A. (Head, Nuclear Physics Section, Compagnie Francaise Thomson-Houston, Le Raincy, France) "Electro-Gravitic Propulsion", Interavia, Vol XI, No 12, 1956 p992. This article explains the benefits of body forces as opposed to point forces, sketches ideas and phenomena which seem to indicate that antigravity devices are possible, and quotes an exuberant VP of the Martin Company claiming that building an Atomic Bomb is no more difficult than building an antigravity device. 6. Giles, Cedric. "Elevators and Levitators", Journal of the American Rocket Society, No 68, Dec 1946, p34-9. This is interesting mainly because of the date, and the perspective it puts upon the various types of propulsive techniques which it enumerates. Some have been realized, while others (for the moment) have been passed by. 7. Gutman (Goteborg Sweden) "Albert Einstein and Gravity Research", Interavia, Vol XI, No 5, 1956, p375. Based upon Einstein's letters, an argument is made that electro-magnetic fields may be expressed, as in Maxwell's Equations, by six (6) functions of space and time *and* require a gravity field. Conversely, a gravity field requires 10 equations of space and time, and may exist alone. A connection between gravity and electromagnetic phenomena is suggested, with gravity a geometrical phenomena and electromagnetics a physical phenomena. 8. Intel (An anonymous American journalist) "Towards Flight Without Stress or Strain... or Weight", Interavia, Vol XI, No 5, 1956, p373-4. This is pure hype, but does identify some of the investigators, and some of the advantages an antigravity device might have. 9. Kooy, JMJ (Netherlands) "Gravitation and Spaceflight", Acta Astronautica, Vol 4, p229-30, Pergammon Press, 1977, Great Britian. A short, interesting speculation on the nature of gravity, and how it might be exploited to power spacecraft. 10. Saxl, Erwin J (Pin Hill, Harvard MA) "An Electrically Charged Torque Pendulum", Nature, Vol 203, No 4941, JUly 11, 1964, p136-8. A former student of Einstein, this author uses some unexpected phenomena, which he observed while performing extensive tests to characterize the behavior of a charged torque pendulum, to suggest that Einstein might have been right in suggesting that there are interactions between electricity, inertial mass, and gravitation. Ofcourse, this information does not reflect the views of my employer in any way shape or form. Richard K Jennings, CAPT, USAF AFSCF/XRP AV: 799-6427 SAFS, CA 94088-3430 ARPA: jennings@aerospace ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!mhuxt!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Disocvery Rolled to Pad Date: 5 Jun 85 00:27:14 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill The space shuttle Discovery today was rolled to pad 39A in preparation for its 17 June launch. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!princeton!astrovax!escher!doug From: escher!doug (Douglas J Freyburger) Subject: Re: Mars rumor Date: 5 Jun 85 22:13:34 GMT Organization: NASA/JPL, Pasadena, CA > From: Robert.Aarhus@CMU-CS-SPICE > At a national Metallurgical Science convention, it was > announced that photographs from the Viking lander revealed > what appeared to be a pyramidal rock formation with "a > face on it" (this is where I became *real* skeptical); > > Now a rock formation, perhaps, but a Pyramid with a face? > Does anyone know if this thing has been observed (maybe just > a photographic artifact?), and if so, why the media hasn't A couple months ago, the JPL employee's newssheet "The JPL Universe" had a pictorial of several photos like that. A lunar crater with a smiley face, a little Mars mountain with an ice-hockey goalie mask, cracks in Ganymede shaped like a mouse, etc. There were about a dozen all told, and some had to be explained before you got the joke. The best part of the Martian face is that one of the "eyes" was a pixel drop-out during transmission, and the other was a fairly recent crater. Computer image enhancement had sharpened one, and blurred the other. The algorthyms do that to bit drop-outs usually. The claim of a "Great Pyramid" is one I haven't heard about yet, though. Sounds like fun. Let's go play Napolean, and strip off the top layer of limestone as convient building material for our colonies housing! DOUG@JPL-VLSI, doug@aerospace, ...!trwrb!escher!doug, etc. Douglas J Freyburger, JPL 171-243, Pasadena, CA 91109 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!grkermi!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxh!twb From: mhuxh!twb Subject: Re: Wanted: orbital mechanics program(s) Date: 14 Jun 85 13:11:25 GMT Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill I am also interested in orbital mechanics software, but for an AT&T PC6300 Please respond by E-mail to: Avi Tilak ..!mhuxh!atux02!avi ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!grkermi!genrad!decvax!tektronix!hplabs!hao!noao!terak!doug From: terak!doug Subject: Re: Twin paradox Date: 11 Jun 85 15:53:21 GMT Organization: Terak Corporation, Scottsdale, AZ, USA > The traveling twin has undergone a fair amount > of acceleration with respect to the Earth... Is acceleration measured "with respect to" something? I'd thought that it was absolute... -- Doug Pardee -- Terak Corp. -- !{ihnp4,seismo,decvax}!noao!terak!doug ^^^^^--- soon to be CalComp ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #190 ******************* 18-Jun-85 0403 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #191 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 191 Today's Topics: Communications Applications of Satellites Countdown Started ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Jun 1985 15:06-PDT Sender: WARD@USC-ISIF.ARPA Subject: Communications Applications of Satellites From: WARD@USC-ISIF.ARPA To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA, BBoard@USC-ISIB.ARPA Cc: Aviation@MIT-MC.ARPA, physics@SRI-UNIX.ARPA OASIS, the Los Angles chapter of the L-5 Society, will be hosting a presentation by William Tisdale on the current utilization of communications satellites and the types of services which may be offered in the future. Mr. Tisdale is an account representative with Satellite Business Systems, a telecommunications firm which provides data, image and voice communication services for customers throughout North America. The talk will be held Saturday June 22, 1985 at 7:00 pm in the TRW Forum located at One Space Park Drive, Redondo Beach. The public is welcome, admission is free. A pre-recorded message on OASIS/L5 events may be reached at (213)374-1381. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!decvax!bellcore!sabre!zeta!epsilon!gamma!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Countdown Started Date: 16 Jun 85 19:33:57 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill The countdown for launch started yesterday with the tradition call to stations and the powering up of Discovery's electrical systems. Launch is scheduled for 0733 EDT tomorrow (Monday, the 17th). All three networks and CNN plan live coverage if the launch is on time. CBS and CNN plan coverage even if there is a delay. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #191 ******************* 19-Jun-85 0350 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #192 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 192 Today's Topics: Acceleration is of NO consequence in the Twin Paradox Liftoff Shuttle Computers and STS power consumption Re: "Throwing Stuff Out The Back" Re: Space propulsion Mexican Satellite Deployed Shuttle News Conference 6-18 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!bellcore!sabre!zeta!epsilon!gamma!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!ihlpg!pccx From: ihlpg!pccx (p cunetto) Subject: Acceleration is of NO consequence in the Twin Paradox Date: 17 Jun 85 01:37:50 GMT Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Several responses to the twin paradox have been posted that correctly note the situation is not symmetrical with respect to the two twins, and therefore there is no paradox. Q * | \ | \ | \ | \ | * R | / | / | / | / P * Twin A who follows PQ is in an inertial frame the entire "journey", while twin B who follows PRQ is not. He accelerates at R (he need not accelerate at P or Q, they can compare ages in passing). However, the fundamental cause of the age difference when they reunite at Q is NOT the acceleration at R. Any age difference caused by the acceleration at R can be made an arbitrarily small fraction of the total age difference merely by making the PR and RQ legs sufficiently long. So the real cause of the age difference must be sought elsewhere. Your don't have to look to General Relativity for that cause, it can be found in Special Relativity. The "cause" is the wrong way triangle inequality of Minkowski geometry. Namely, if R is in the future of P, and Q is in the future of R, then d(P,Q) >= d(P,R) + d(R,Q) where d(x,y) is the interval (not the spatial distance) between x and y. (Outline of the proof follows below) For an observer at rest in an inertial frame (viz. twin A between P and Q, and twin B between P and R and between R and Q), the interval between two events on his world line is just the elapsed time between them. Therefore, the wrong way triangle inequality says: The elapsed time from P to Q for A is greater than the total elapsed time from P to R to Q for B, i.e, A is older than B at Q. As stated above, the age difference caused by the acceleration at R can be made arbitrarily small compared to the age difference "caused" by the wrong way triangle inequality. So it is the geometry of spacetime and the physical significance of the interval that causes the age difference, not the acceleration. ------------------ Wrong way triangle inequality. (2 dimensions) * Q (x3,t3) | \ | \ | \ | \ | * R (x2,t2) | / | / | / | / P * (x1,t1) Given that R is in the future of P, i.e., x2-x1 <= c(t2-t1) and that Q is in the future of R, i.e., x3-x2 <= c(t3-t2) show d(P,Q) >= d(P,R) + d(R,Q) where d(P,Q) is the interval between P and Q: i.e. d(P,Q) = (c**2)(t3-t1)**2 - (x3-x1)**2 Outline of the proof: Expand d(P,Q) >= d(P,R) + d(R,Q) and cancel like terms on each side. The resulting inequality (call it [1]) is what we are going to prove. Multiply corresponding sides of the two inequalities given in the assumptions to get a single inequality. Multiply it by -1, rearrange terms, and you get [1]. QED Phil Cunetto ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!bellcore!sabre!zeta!epsilon!gamma!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Liftoff Date: 17 Jun 85 13:57:33 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill Space shuttle Discovery lifted off on time today, at 0733 EDT. It was everything but eventful. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 1985 at 2032-EDT Subject: Shuttle Computers and STS power consumption From: jim at TYCHO.ARPA (James B. Houser) To: space at mit-mc A recent posting about shuttle cooling reminded me of an article I ran across in an old (1980) IBM document. The article described the onboard computers as System/4Pi model AP-101 processors. The AP-101 appears to be a 3 KIP machine with an intensely ugly architecture. Main memory was described as 104KW (36 bit) of core (really core!) with 400 ns access time. What startled me were the physical characteristics. Each of the five "processors" appears to consist of two boxes. The boxes weigh 58.9 pounds and draw 350 Watts!!!!! This would imply a system total of almost 600 pounds and 3500 Watts. Did they actually use this refugee from the Smithsonian on the Shuttle and if so are there any reasonable plans afoot to upgrade? In a related question, what are the major contributors of heat during the orbital portion of a shuttle mission? ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!gymble!lll-crg!dual!unisoft!mtxinu!rtech!amdahl!ems From: amdahl!ems (ems) Subject: Re: "Throwing Stuff Out The Back" Date: 17 Jun 85 22:07:40 GMT Organization: Circle C Shellfish Ranch, Shores-of-the-Pacific, Ca > From: Richard K. Jennings > > If we use a Hydrogen (or perhaps stellar) ramjet, we wouldn't > have to carry the mass a long. Barring an enlighted government which > understands, and funds, the importance of electrogravitics, the only > way man can approach light speed in the near future is by some type > of ram-jet technology. Pardon my ignorance, but what is 'electrogravitics'? -- E. Michael Smith ...!{hplabs,ihnp4,amd,nsc}!amdahl!ems This is the obligatory disclaimer of everything. (Including but not limited to: typos, spelling, diction, logic, and nuclear war) ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!gymble!lll-crg!dual!unisoft!mtxinu!rtech!amdahl!ems From: amdahl!ems (ems) Subject: Re: Space propulsion Date: 17 Jun 85 22:13:12 GMT Organization: Circle C Shellfish Ranch Shores-of-the-Pacific, Ca > From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA > > Here is a short list of ideas for space propulsion systems > that don't rely on taking stuff along and throwing it out > the back. They range from the serious to the silly, and they > are all based on recollections of other people's work. > Sigh, this must be my day for being dense. > > (5) Gravitic propulsion. This one is really way out. Currently, we have > absolutely no idea how to interact with a gravity field in any > controlled manner. The interaction must be possible - inded, Hawking > radiation is created by the breakdown of the vacuum under intense > gravitic stress - but we lack an adequate theory. Also, it's not Who was Hawkin and what is this radiation? How can a vacuum breakdown? It is a trace of something in the vacuum, or do you really mean that the empty space itself breaks down? > clear what the energy flux would be. If you believe Mach's principle, > then a ship could use the entire mass of the universe to power a > gravity drive. > Who is Mach, and what is his principle? Did I sleep through the wrong physics lecture or something? None of these names is familiar to me (unless Mach also is the guy who gave us mach numbers ... ) -- E. Michael Smith ...!{hplabs,ihnp4,amd,nsc}!amdahl!ems This is the obligatory disclaimer of everything. (Including but not limited to: typos, spelling, diction, logic, and nuclear war) ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!grkermi!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!mhuxt!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb Subject: Mexican Satellite Deployed Date: 18 Jun 85 04:47:44 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill The crew of the Discovery today successfully deployed Morelos-A, the Mexican satellite aboard the shuttle. Later, its PAM engine ignited and took it to geosynchronous orbit. ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 18 Jun 85 22:46:02 PDT To: crash!noscvax!space@mit-mc Subject: Shuttle News Conference 6-18 NASA News Conference 6/18 -> Principal participant Milt Heflin - Flight Director - good evening and thanks for braving the weather.. I understand its been raining all day. First of all, about Arab Sat, things are going very very well, with Arab Sat. We expect the perigee kick motor firing to occur around 1:45, our time this morning. Things are going just fine, the spacecraft is in a position right now, in which the partial deployed (I use the word partially deployed for the solar panel) although its exactly where it should be; the two first rings of the solar panel are where they should be, receiving power and doing the job that they're supposed to be doing. Other activities today, the biggest activity that we had this afternoon, occurred with the system waste water dumps.. those of you that may not be very familiar with that system, we have water tanks on board in which we carry pottable water .. drinking water .. water we also use in a flash activated latrine. and we have a system to collect the waste water. and we have only so much space in the tank so periodically we need to dump some of that water. In previous flights, we have had some experiencing of an icing, an ice build up around these nozzles. This was the first flight with a nominal configuration. And today we performed a waste water dump, first of all a supply water dump and looked at these dumps with the interceptor camera on the mechanical arm. We're very very pleased with what we saw. Both of those dumps went as expected and we think that we're taking our first step towards putting the water dump into a category where we can go on a flight and not worry about that. Later in the flight we will look at the beginning of water dumps at different nozzle temperatures. Today we did it at a temperature that is at a high level and a warm situation on the spacecraft to give us the best chance of taking a look at it. We dumped about 53 lbs of water from the supply system and also from the waste system. Today on the down link t.v. we did see that Patrick was convecting the French experiment in the mid deck. In addition today, Shanon (Shanon Lucid) was doing the French ecocardiograph experiment on herself. And today, also Sultan (Prince Sultan Salman Al Saud) did the first of the phase separation experiment, in which a very simple device on board with oil and water mixed together, that from that simple device you might get some better idea of the mixing of the oil and the water in zero gravity. And hopefully from that you can understand more about that mechanism that goes on. At the end of the shift the first printout of the animated directional solidification furnace (AVSF) was begun and what this is is a materials processing experiment. It one where particular metals that we're looking at right now are byzmuth, manganese byzmuth, its two metals that you're looking at the process of melting these materials and then seeing how they resolidify in zero gravity and as I understand it, this particular experiment is looking specifically at magnetic properties and trying to determine if we can find some way of making the magnets more suseptable to becoming demagnetized. And that is the activities that went on today. Questions Arab T.V. - the Arab astronaut, did he make any comments after the deployment of Arab Sat? He did make some comments on air to ground. They're transcribed down here, I heard them I can't repeat for you directly what he said but he did make a comment about observing the deployment of the Arab Sat. Are there any more details about how its functioning, I know its functioning very well but...Well the tracking and functional certainly were and what will do is hopefully at each change of shift briefing we will be getting immediate updates of it. The apogee kick motor firing is going to occur at around 1:45 in the morning and we'll have that information for you in the morning. Univ of Arabia -> Besides the water oil mix experiment and the French experiment what else did Prince Sultan do today. Well today, his activities as I mentioned earlier, the French Packet experiment .. he was a subject for that experiment. ..other than that..don't know whether he had a chance to take some photographs of some of the reaction control systems firing, which is something he is going to do during the flight, I don't know whether he's done it yet or not. We're there any reactions on how those experiments went? No, I did not hear any reaction from him. AP -> When the Sultan will be taking pictures of the Arabian Penninsula.. he's supposed to do that on a couple of passes. Yes he is. Do you happen to have a weather forcast for that area? How the visibility will be? In the next few days of the mission. No sir, I don't but I'm sure we can get that for you. French New Agency -> Can you tell us what difference there are between the old water nozzles and the new ones. And what difference does that make for the operation. Sure- the nozzle itself has been changed..the old nozzle allowed the water to come out in a spray pattern, the new one comes out more like a pencil, you might say a pencil stream of fluid instead of a spray. The spray was basically what was causing the problem before. That's the biggest difference. Aviation Week -> Were you able to get the Arab Sat PAM burn on film, on tape? No sir, we were not. Why was that? The interceptor camera was not configured for it.. on the arm. French News -> Do you have to take into account the modification of atitude to the orbiter of some 63 lbs of water exuding from the nozzle? Or is that just .. it really just annoying. And we were expecting some type of downlink from Patrick Baudry giving how the experiments went..what happened to it? When I left the control center, we got the information that the payload specialist report was performed and on the recorder one of the flight controllers in the control center .. the information on that is that the French experiment ..my suggestion would be if the PI of the French experiment wished to have that released those arrangements can be made. ..Could you explain simply what exactly the high precision tracking experiment is and what will take place tommorrow. Later in the day, around day 2, the MET (mission elapse time for day two) 6 1/2 HRS CST, what will happen is the .. we're looking at the ability for a low powered laser about 4 watts wavelength of blue color laser and see how well it can .. tracking a range and a range rate divised. Its an airforce experiment. The transmitter for that experiment is on the isle of Maui in Hawaii, that's an airforce site there. The orbitters going to act basically like a mirror. We're going to attatch to the side hinge on the port side of the orbitter .. inside, we will attatch an electroreflective mirror and simply come over the tracking site at Hawaii and point the window towards the station. And allow the station there to transmit the beam to the orbitter. We will not have any feedback immediately on how that went. It will all be done, as far as how well it goes, will be known down there on the island of Maui. They said this morning the Arab Sat was being tracked from San Palo will they continue to track the satellite on this burn and once apogee burn has occurred who will be tracking it from there and at what point will Saudi Arabia be expected to pick it up? There are a number of tracking sites. I don't have them in front of me, I know that on the way to geosynch orbit that the Intelsat network and the tracking sites will be performing that function. At some point in time, the tracking and the house keeping of the satellite will go to the ground site there in, I believe, Saudi Arabia and I'm not sure just where it is. ********************** More general information -> Two of the satellites are now deployed and they are in nominal orbit. The Telesat will be deployed in the morning. The French experiment is being put on a tape recorder and its up to the French to release it. The circularization burn on Arab Sat will take place about 1:45 tommorrow. Spartan -> National Physics Experiment, low cost experiments to capitalize on the success of the NASA sounding rocket experiment. Spartan 1 - the high energy payload consists of a naval research laboratory instrument containing two large X-ray counters equipped with colimeters to define the direction of the incoming X-ray source - this type of instrument has previously provided brief snap shots of X-ray sources with in the sounding rocket program. Data is stored in a paper program aboard Spartan and by film can provide atitude accuracy. Spartan will point the instrument with its stellar atitude control systems allowing instruments to systemmatically scan the surface of X-ray and construct a two dimensional picture of X-ray emmissions. Clusters will be mapped and data will be gathered on the temperature of the intracluster gas and the galactic evolutions. Spartan will be sent out then retrieved. It will also be part of the testing for the projected black hole in the Milky Way. There will be 35 hrs of observing time in the Milky Way. There are also smaller experiments on board.. Get Away Specials on the flight .. Capillary exp, space ultraviolet radiation exp. , Texas school has a series of student experiments. .. growth of seeds.. dynamic liquid propellent for the tank experiment. Also there is the furnace for combining metals .. testing magnetism .. fundamental studies in magnetism. Producing metals with better magnetic properties. >From the Intercomex Bulletin Board (303)-367-1935 crash!usiiden!markf@nosc ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #192 ******************* 20-Jun-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #193 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 193 Today's Topics: Space Shuttle Computers Arab Satellite Deployed ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed 19 Jun 85 09:41:44-EDT From: Gern Subject: Space Shuttle Computers To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA It is my understanding that the Space Shuttle computers are 32-bit machines (IBM does not seem to make 36-bit machines) and are a scaled down version of the IBM 360 in a 60 pound package (gross!). That is, 4 of the computers are. The 5th was designed and built by Rockwell (Rockwell doesn't trust IBM computers either). I do not know how different the Rockwell machine is to the IBMs, but it is the only computer that has never failed (it did cause the sync problems on the very first attempted launch, but only because the 4 IBMs ganged up on it...). Cheers, Gern ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!uwvax!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Arab Satellite Deployed Date: 19 Jun 85 01:15:46 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill The Discovery today successfuly deployed a satellite owned by a consortium of Arab countries. The deployment was delayed while crew members inspected the berthed satellite via remote camera to determine whether or not a sensor that reported a premature deployment of a solar panel was malfunctioning. The panel turned out to be locked into its proper place. After satellite deployment, its PAM engine ignited and took it to its geosynchronous orbit. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #193 ******************* 21-Jun-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #194 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 194 Today's Topics: Space Shuttle Computers Interesting Questions Re: Liftoff Laser Test Fails -- Satellite Deployed ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Jun 1985 20:56:47-EDT (Thursday) From: Josh Knight To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Space Shuttle Computers The September 1984 Issue of Communications of the ACM had a case study of the Space Shuttle primary computer system and a special section on on computing in space. The following excerpt from the (copyright ACM) case study article "The Space Shuttle Primary Computer System" by Alfred Spector and David Gifford, is a response by Tony Macina of IBM to the question by Al Spector "Can you give us some more detailed information about the Shuttle computers?": "A single computer (GPC) is made up of two packages, a CPU unit and an I/O device unit (IOP), with a total of 106K 32 bit words of memory. The CPU, a System/4 Pi, Model AP-101 manufactured by IBM is an off-the-shelf processor and has probably been around for 10 or 12 years. Our original contract specified that we use off-the- shelf hardware as much as possible. The 4 Pi design has been used in a number of other aerospace vehicles. For example, certain B-52 aircraft an the B-1 Bomber use 4 Pi technology. "The IOP was specially built and designed for the Shuttle, using 4 Pi technology. It contains 24 "time-sliced" processors that handle the data buses on the Shuttle. The IOP obtains its instructions from the main memory and is actually in contention with the CPU for memory access." Further responses indicate that the main memory is ferrite core (non- volatility is cited as an advantage of this old implementation), that the CPU processes 450,000 instructions/second and that the CPU/IOP combination weighs about 120 pounds. To control flight surfaces each of the 4 (hopefully) identical computers send independent commands on independent buses to independent actuators and what happens to the control surfaces is controlled by a HYDRAULIC "voting" mechanism. The articles in the special section on computing in space are: "Development and Application of NASA's First Standard Spacecraft Computer" by C.E. Trevathan, T.D. Taylor, R.G. Hartenstein, A.C. Merwarth and W.N. Stewart "Design, Devlopment, Integration: Space Shuttle Primary Flight Software System" by W.A. Madden and K.Y. Rone "Architecture of the Space Shuttle Primary Avionics Software System" by G.D. Carlow Of course, any opinions, expressed or implied are mine and not my employers... Josh Knight IBM T.J. Watson Research Center josh@yktvmh.BITNET, josh.yktvmh.ibm-sj@csnet-relay.ARPA ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!alberta!myriasb!ggc From: myriasb!ggc (Gilles Chartrand) Subject: Interesting Questions Date: 19 Jun 85 17:27:05 GMT Organization: Myrias Research, Edmonton In the past couple of weeks many interesting questions were posted in this group. There have been no follow-up answers. Is there some node in the net which isn't forwarding properly? Are answers being sent by mail? Does no one know the answers? I am very interested in everything about the space shuttles please, discuss these topics publically. Gilles ...!alberta!myrias!ggc ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!mtuxo!mtunh!mtung!mtunf!ariel!vax135!petsd!peora!jer From: peora!jer (J. Eric Roskos) Subject: Re: Liftoff Date: 19 Jun 85 19:30:16 GMT Organization: Perkin-Elmer SDC, Orlando, Fl. >Space shuttle Discovery lifted off on time today, >at 0733 EDT. It was everything but eventful. Pooh. You must have had to have been there. For the first time in a long time, you could actually SEE it clearly until the SRBs quit going. It was good to photograph, too. -- Shyy-Anzr: J. Eric Roskos UUCP: ..!{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!vax135!petsd!peora!jer US Mail: MS 795; Perkin-Elmer SDC; 2486 Sand Lake Road, Orlando, FL 32809-7642 Bar ol bar / Gur pbyq rgpurq cyngr / Unf cevagrq gur jnez fgnef bhg. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Laser Test Fails -- Satellite Deployed Date: 20 Jun 85 03:09:49 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill A laser beam was shot at the space shuttle today in a test to see how laser light diffuses as it travels through the atmosphere. Unfortunately, numbers fed by ground control into the shuttle autopilot were in feet instead of nautical miles with the result that the mirror on the shuttle that should have reflected the beam back to Earth was on the wrong side at the appointed time. NASA said there will be another chance on Saturday. Meanwhile, Telstar-3D was successfully deployed and NASA reported a successful PAM burn, making this mission 3 for 3 in satellite deployments. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #194 ******************* 22-Jun-85 1823 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #195 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 195 Today's Topics: Re: Space Shuttle Computers Starwisp Twin paradox re-re-revisited Who are Mach and Hawking? Nuclear pumped gas lasers Re: Who are Mach and Hawking? shuttle news conf 6/20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Jun 1985 08:38-EDT From: Douglass.Locke@CMU-CS-K.ARPA To: SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Re: Space Shuttle Computers The four (not five) Shuttle computers are indeed IBM AP-101 processors. They are environmentally hardened 32 bit machines which bear NO resemblance to IBM 360's or any other commercial computer, either in architecture or in construction. Although all the processors are identical, one contains a different software package written by Rockwell to avoid the potential of a single software problem stopping all the computers simultaneously. Before one criticizes the packaging, or the memory technology chosen, it would perhaps be appropriate to investigate the difficulties of handling an environment with potential extremes of temperature, vibration, shock, EMI, and radiation, with acceptable reliability, and in a vehicle which is totally dependent on the equipment. When NASA was specifying the equipment, it was in the mid-70's and there was no applicable experience with the actual shuttle environment, so a conservative approach was certainly justified. The IBM AP-101 is one of an extensive line of machines for such environments with a variety of speeds, form factors, memory technologies, etc., each designed to cope with different environmental and application requirements. -- Doug Locke ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 85 18:07:10 EDT From: DIETZ@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: Starwisp To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA I missed the beginning of the Interstellar probe discussion. Did Forward's Starwisp idea get mentioned? Starwisp is a VERY lightweight cloud of thin metal wires. Arranged at the intersections of the wires are tiny electronic devices. The wisp is powered by microwaves from a source in the solar system. It is accelerated by microwave radiation pressure at about 100 gees(!); acceleration is limited (as in all radiation pressure systems) by heating of the sail. It coasts, inactive, to the target system at a good fraction of c. When it reaches the target system a microwave beam from the solar system (greatly spread out) illuminates it; information is transmitted back to Earth by phase conjugating the microwave power signal. The engineering challenges here are severe, but relatively little power is needed (gigawatts for a gram-scale wisp). ------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 85 05:03 PDT From: FRIEDRICH%GAV@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Twin paradox re-re-revisited To: SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA Quite a bit of discussion about the twin paradox has gone on. Let me throw some more wood onto the fire by doing a small bit of algebra. First, please allow me to use the capital B to denote beta, which repre- sents the term v/c, where v is the relative velocity involved at the moment, and c is the speed of light. Also grant me the use of sqrt(x) to mean the square root of x. Now, if you'll promise not to go to sleep ... Give each twin a bright flashing light, which flashes at a rate f. Now send twin R on the rocket, and give twin E a chair. During the outbound trip of the rocket, each twin sees the other's light flashing at a rate f' = f * sqrt( (1-B)/(1+B) ) where the v buried in B is the rocket's velocity. Note that since B < 1, f' is lower than f; in fact, at v = c, f' is zero. (Let me stop a minute to show this; without special relativity, f' = f / (1 - B) but y (gamma, if you please) = sqrt(1 - B^2) is the time-dilation factor, so f' = (f / (1 - B)) * y from which you can easily get the first equation.) Now comes the asymmetry of the situation. Note that I will carefully stay out of general relativity; it is not necessary to explain the twin paradox. Immediately after the turnaround, twin R begins seeing twin E's light flashing at a much higher rate: f'' = f * sqrt( (1+B)/(1-B) ) Now this means that f'' is GREATER than f. But twin E, back on Earth, does not see this enhanced rate immediately. If L is the distance of the trip, twin E does not see the enhanced rate until t = L/v - L/c before the end of the trip. (Note that as v -> c, twin E sees the increased rate for less and less time.) This enhanced flash rate is simply none other than the Doppler effect; we are NOT comparing the speeds of the two twins' clocks. Do not be misled into believing that we have shown that moving clocks run FAST sometimes; realize that the light travel time is decreasing. To summarize: during the outbound leg, each twin sees a reduced flash rate from the other twin. Immediately after reversal, the rocket twin sees a higher flash rate from the Earth twin's light. However, the Earth twin does not see this high flash rate for quite a while yet; the light must get to him from the turnaround point first. Herein lies the asymmetry of the sit- uation. The rocket twin is the one that actually went through the turn- around event; NOT the Earthbound twin. The Earthbound twin sees the lower flash rate for a much longer period of time, and NEVER sees a flash rate higher than the rocket twin sees. Reference: Special Relativity, by A. P. French, which is part of the MIT Introductory Physics Series, published by W. W. Norton and Company. My edition is copyright 1966, and the relevant pages are 149 - 159. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 85 05:04 PDT From: FRIEDRICH%GAV@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Who are Mach and Hawking? To: SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA A question a couple of days ago asked, in effect, "who are Mach and Hawking, and what do they know?" Ernst Mach was the first of a number of physicists to ask questions about whether acceleration is relative to something. To make this concrete, the question raised, effectively, is "If you were spinning around in your desk chair, and the rest of the universe suddenly disappeared, would you still feel as though you were spinning?" The conclusion of Mach and many others after him, is "No! Inertia (which is "resistance to acceleration") is determined by the rest of the matter in the universe." In other words, accelerations are not absolute, but are with respect to the distant galaxies. Fred Hoyle and J. V. Narlikar have developed a reformulation of general relativity that embodies Mach's Principle; even the masses of atoms are determined by the distribution of matter in the universe. Now, for something completely different. Mach's Principle remains a conjecture only. Stephen Hawking is another story. Hawking is, in my own humble opinion (and that of many others) the world's greatest living astrophysicist. Unfortunately, he has a degenerative nerve disease that has crippled and is slowly killing him. He does his mathematics in his head and dictates to graduate students who have been specially trained to understand his speech (mostly by experience, I gather). Charles River Data Systems of Natick, Massachusetts, deserves a great big hearty THANKS for donating a supermicro or two to Hawking, which will probably help him communicate with others. Hawking is probably best known for showing the existence of Hawking radiation; the fact that black holes evaporate is due to this. It has been described as "the breakdown of vacuum (actually, space) under intense gravitic stress" in another message to this list. Essentially, what is happening is a result of quantum physics and the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. Space, at the quantum level, is not empty. It is seething with virtual particles, created due to uncertainty. Energy is "borrowed" from nothing to create particles, with the understanding that they live for only a very short period of time, and then disappear, giving the energy back. According to the uncertainty principle, this is OK as long as the product of the energy and the time don't exceed a certain (extremely small) value involving Planck's Constant. Now suppose that a virtual particle pair is created right next to the event horizon of a black hole, so that one member is sucked in. The other member now has nobody to combine with to give back the energy. Hawking showed that the net effect of this is that "permanent" energy is drawn from the black hole to replace the energy that was borrowed against the uncertainty principle. The particle that stayed outside the black hole becomes "real", and the result is that a black hole emits particles! Now, since black holes have finite mass, they can't continue to emit par- ticles forever. So the black hole gets smaller ("evaporates"). This increases the surface-to-mass ratio, and the black hole gets smaller faster. This rate of evaporation increases until there is finally an explosive effect in the last few instants of the hole's existence. I wish I could recall the timescale of this; the one thing I think I remember is that a black hole about the mass of Mount Everest would evaporate in something like a million years ... but don't quote me on that. Please note also that the above explanation spans a LOT of physics, and is necessarily crude. Terry ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 85 18:31:16 EDT From: DIETZ@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: Nuclear pumped gas lasers To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA I just sent a message on this subject to ARMS-D; it has applications to civilian space, too, so I'd thought I'd reiterate here. The idea is to make a compact, high power space based laser using nuclear power. I don't want to use nuclear reactions to boil water to make electricity to drive a laser; that's horribly bulky and inefficient. Instead, mix U-235 hexafluoride gas with some lasing medium and let the fission fragments directly excite laser action. We can potentially discard waste heat at very high temperatures, allowing a very compact high power laser. Some applications: (1) we can beam power to spacecraft. (2) we can beam power to the moon. A good orbit to use for this application is a polar orbit aligned perpendicular to the earth-moon axis; the orbit can be made to precess with a period of 1 lunar month. (3) we can fly laser powered aircraft (over oceans!) (4) weather modification (5) pulsed UV lasers could be used to prospect on the moon from earth orbit (maybe on asteroids too). A pulsed laser would need a pulsed reactor; these beasts have been built on earth and have achieved very high instantaneous power levels (I'm not counting pulsed reactors that make mushroom clouds). This is potentially a near term technology, since nuclear power sources are so lightweight (and because SDI is getting billions of dollars). These lasers would also make, of course, frightening weapons. Combined with large telescopes in orbit they would allow the destruction of exposed personnel at any give point on the Earth's surface, in seconds. A 1 gigawatt laser could deliver ~100x solar intensity to an area 100 meters across. ------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 85 18:16:14 pdt From: Rick McGeer To: FRIEDRICH%GAV@LLL-MFE.ARPA, SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Re: Who are Mach and Hawking? I might also point out that Hawking's theory predicts that black holes randomly emitt mass of any form and content. What that means, to paraphrase Pournelle, is that everyone and everything you can imagine, (and everything you can't) will eventually get emitted from a singularity. In short, the eggplant that ate Philadelphia is real....and, no, I'm not kidding. Hawking, incidentally, isn't all that tough to understand -- or wasn't three years ago when he gave a radio interview. Halfway through the interview I understood him perfectly, and wished that his damn translator would SHUT UP. Definitely the greatest living astrophysicist, and one of the greatest of all time. Rick. ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 21 Jun 85 06:45:47 PDT To: crash!noscvax!space@mit-mc Subject: shuttle news conf 6/20 Change of Shift Press Conference 6/20 -> Let me bring youup to date on the status of the three satellites. TheMorelos is in geosynch and they plan to start testing fromthe station tonight. The Arab Sat, the second had asuccessful apogee kick motor firing. In fact, it wasperformed so well that the latest data I have is that twomore burns are scheduled, but it looks like right now thatthey'll only need one more. And that's presently scheduledfor Saturday morning at 5 AM CDT. The full array deploymentschedule d for Saturday at 11 AM. The Telstar had an apogeekick motor firing today and it was successful. And theearly testing of Telestar will start on Saturday. I'll getinto detail on Spartan just a little bit later. I feel likeI've kind of slighted the Orbitter, Discovery, the last fewdays and probably shouldn't have because there's beennothing to report on Discovery. Which I think should besaid. It credits a lot of folks especially those at KFCthat turn the vehicle around. And its been just performingabsolutely outstanding. And there is nothing to report onDiscovery today. The Spartan deployment today was the bigactivity. The deployment went absolutely by the book frommy standpoint. For example, there were absolutely no tipoff rates, the orbitter did not fire a single attitudecontrol jet at the time we deployed the Spartan. We wereprecisely in the atitude desired. We predicted that wewould use someone for the whole operation, leading up tothe deployment exercise, we predicted that we would use atotal of 135 lbs of propellant and we used 129. And I thinkone thing that is a real key here is that in all oursimulations today for the Spartan deployment, the folksthat put that thing together, they predicted throughsimulations that we would be at 950 ft at the beginning ofthe second burn, that was the prediction through simulationand we were precisely at 950 ft. And that's a vote ofconfidence for twenty people and all those people who putthat together. Just to remind you, we do not have anytelemetry on Spartan, its an e xperiment that will take alook at two primary sources of X-rays in the heavens, oneat the center of our own gallaxy and in addition it will belooking at an X-ray source from a cluster of stars nearPerseus (I think it is). So we have no telemetry on it,after deployment, it let us know that it was O.K. by doinga perouette maneuver, its a simple 45 degree roll about thegrapple fixture and then a return and this indicates to usthat Spartan is alive and we ll and from that point in timeit has an on-board program, an attitude control system togo away and pick up some guide stars to be sure that it isin the right attitude and then further do its sciencetaking. With a summary of tommorrow's activities, we haverescheduled a new primary event for the high precisiontracking experiment (HPTE) over at Mauii and that will bescheduled to occur on orbit 54 which is very close tomission elapsed time of four days even and this equates tosomewhere in the neighborhood of 6 :30 AM. In order to thatwe're moving some of the water test a little further up intime to give us time for the tracking test. And we do havealso planned tommorrow, some mid deck t.v. activities, andat this stage, I'm not too sure of the status of the VIPphone calls that might occur tommorrow. Oh and by the way,were going to give the Orbit 1 team a chance to do the HPTEtracking. Questions -> Video News Arabia -> Could youplease brief us about the Princes activities for today. Hewas again the subject in the French experiment. But I don'tknow when he does that because it's strictly up to him. I'mafraid I can't answer your question. He will be making areport today. Voice of America -> I understand thatyesterday the astronauts determined among themselves whowas the official 100 th astronaut in space did they giveany indication of how they made the determination? Yes, Itsquite simply a matter that Steve Nagel was the 100 thShannon was runner up, she was 99 th. I believe theydetermined that Steve was something lik e 3 inches behind,further aft then Shannon which made him the 100 th. CNN ->Do you have the ft converted into nautical mi for the Orbit1 team? Yes! Are we going to get a call from Reagan(tommorrow)? None planned at this point. crash!usiiden!markf!nosc ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #195 ******************* 23-Jun-85 0351 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #196 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 196 Today's Topics: Lofstrom, take note... Shoot the Moon Mach and Hawking (Re: Space propulsion) Re: Shuttle Computers and STS power cons Keywords: ELXSI, Dryden Flight Facility, EMBOS Space Shuttle Audio & Video Re: Shuttle Computers and STS power consumption Spartan Launched -- Laser Test Rescheduled Re: Liftoff ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Jun 85 11:46:50 EDT From: DIETZ@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: Lofstrom, take note... To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: keithl.TEKTRONIX@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA Business Week, July 1, 1985, page 79 "A Giant Flywheel That `Banks' Energy" "What do you get by combining a giant underground atom smasher with a magnetic leviation `train' of little metal cubes? A revolutionary way of storing massive amounts of energy, according to researchers at Argonne National Laboratory. They propose building a monstrous flywheel: a chain of magnetically suspended metal cubes in a circular vacuum chamber 1.2 mi. in diameter. The cubes would be accelerated to a speed of thousands of miles per hour by superconducting magnets, just as similar magnets send atomic particles zipping around an atom-smasher at close to the speed of light. "A utility could rev up this flywheel at night, using surplus power. The next day, the energy would be retrieved by reversing the process and using the ring as a generator. Argonne scientist John R. Hull says that a kinetic-energy ring would be three times as efficient as hydroelectric systems that store energy by pumping water back up behind a dam. Looks like ANL is doing research that could lead to a launch loop. The kinetic energy ring looks like a winner if it makes sense on as small a scale as 1.2 miles; capital costs should scale linearly with radius while energy stored scales as the square of the radius. ------- ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 85 10:45:56 EDT From: DIETZ@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: Shoot the Moon To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA The Apollo missions revealed one serious obstacle to lunar colonization and exploitation: an almost total lack of volatile elements in lunar rock. There is very little carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen or halogens; even lead is seriously depleted. This is now thought to have been a consequence of the formation of the moon from debris blasted from the earth by a collision with a mars-size body early in the history of the solar system. A volatile elements were disbursed before the cloud could condense into dust particles. At any rate, this is a serious obstacle to any would-be colonist. Hydrogen is necessary for water, food and rocket fuel. Carbon and nitrogen are needed for food and plastics. Fluorine is vital in the chemical processing of lunar materials. Delivering this material to the moon by rocket is expensive, even with advanced orbital transfer vehicles. Delivering it to near lunar space is somewaht cheaper, since you don't have to ferry it down, but still expensive. I propose a very cheap method for shipping bulk supplies to the lunar surface. The idea is to build a large electromagnetic accelerator on the Earth's surface. Payloads consisting of ~100 kg of plastic are launched at the moon. These payloads hit the moon at several km/sec, completely destroying them; however, the target area is covered with a layer of fine soil to absorb the kinetic energy. Periodically the soil is sifted to remove debris, which is then refined to extract needed volatiles. Assuming the accelerator can be built sufficiently cheaply, the main problem is guidance. Travelling up through the atmosphere, the payloads will ablate and be pushed about by winds. Their velocities will have a significant random component. Some sort of active guidance will be needed to make course corrections. I suggest placing in each payload package a small microwave transceiver, some control electronics, a battery, and some low power thruster rockets. The position of the payload is determined by triangulation from large satellites placed in earth orbit, at the L4 and L5 points, and somewhere out of Earth/Moon system plane. Course correction calculations are made at a central computing facility on Earth and relayed back to the payloads. All the elements I mentioned above can be delivered by this mechanism. Hydrogen and carbon are delivered as polyethylene. Fluorine is delivered as Teflon. Nitrogen can be delivered as Nylon. The guidance and control package will be destroyed on impact, but perhaps some useful metal can be extracted. A rough guess of cost can be made by calculating energy cost (~$3/kg at 30% launcher efficiency and $.05/KWHr) and capital costs (at $5 billion dollars spread over five years at 100,000 tonnes/year, about $10/kg). This ignores guidance package costs, which might add another $10/kg (if the package costs ~$1000, probably an overestimate). ------- ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw From: rtp47!throopw (Wayne Throop) Subject: Mach and Hawking (Re: Space propulsion) Date: 20 Jun 85 16:58:41 GMT Organization: Data General, RTP, NC Article <2272@mordor.UUCP> mentioned some farily far-out ideas for space propulsion. In article <1684@amdahl.UUCP>, E. Michael Smith asks about Hawking, "vaccuum breakdown" and Mach's Principle, which were mentioned in the original article. Here is my contribution to the flood of articles that I assume will follow this query. Hawking is one of the current big guns in theoretical physics, and has published many articles about the physics of black holes, some of which have been popularized. Hawking radiation refers to an interesting theoretical effect he "discovered" which allows a black hole to radiate. It is related to "tunneling" out of a potential barrier too high to penetrate via classical physics, but one interpretation of it DOES actually have vaccuum "breaking down". In particular, quantum mechanics and the uncertainty principle raises some theoretical difficulties that are avoided by what is called "renormalization". Among other things, the mathematics of this process imply that particles appear and disappear spontaneously in vaccuum. Normally, what is created is a particle/anti-particle pair, and they normally self-destruct before they can be perceived (they persist a shorter time than the uncertainty involved in attempting to measure them). When this occurs near a black hole, one of the two particles (the anti-particle, say) can fall past the event horizon, and thus be unavailable for re-combination with a particle. This event is indistinguishable from the black hole emiting a particle. It is intuitively appealing (and even formally appealing, as I understand it) to think of this process as a "breakdown of vaccuum". A way to think of it is that the event horison of a black hole is "sharp enough" to slice vaccuum. (You real physicists out there note that I didn't say it was a *good* way of thinking about it.) Ernst Mach was an Austrian physicist who died in 1916. I have heard of "the Mach Principle" or "Mach's Principle" in science fiction stories, and it seems to have something to do with FTL travel. I don't know exactly what that is all about, but I suspect is is some pre-relativistic notion that isn't too relevant anymore. (I'd be delighted to find differently... anybody out there know any more about "Mach's Principle"?) Ernst had nothing to do with "mach number", which is speed measured in speed-of-sound units (a somewhat rubber measuring unit, it has always seemed to me). I think mach is a corruption of "mark", but I beg to be corrected if I'm wrong. -- Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC !mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!cca!haddock!stevel From: haddock!stevel Subject: Re: Shuttle Computers and STS power cons Date: 20 Jun 85 01:42:00 GMT > This would imply a system total of almost 600 pounds and > 3500 Watts. Did they actually use this refugee from the Smithsonian > on the Shuttle and if so are there any reasonable plans afoot to > upgrade? The computer was designed to use PROVEN technology as of 1972(3?). This means no 8086 maybe not even an 8080, had to be proven mil spec. ??? do they get anything from redisigning it aside from another 400-500 pounds of usefull load? It already is reliable and cost of development would probably wipe out all operating cost savings, unless it is delaying shuttle missions. However you can bet the french Hermes shuttle will use something better. It already has a glass cockpit almost like the planned AIRBUS 320`s. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!hao!ames!eugene From: ames!eugene (Eugene Miya) Subject: Keywords: ELXSI, Dryden Flight Facility, EMBOS Date: 21 Jun 85 00:34:16 GMT Organization: NASA-Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA Today, we sent down to the NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility to view a 4 processor ELXSI system which was purchased about 1 year ago. Several interesting observations: For net.space: lots of neat aircraft sitting on the runway. A shuttle mission was in progress. What struck me: the many aircraft hangers which are like garages except with things which fly, row after row of hangers. Row upon row of interesting aircraft: F-111s, F-4, T-33s, T-38s, F-14s, F-15s, F-16s, the F-20 with a film crew (probably making a commercial), B-52s, the Scissor wing, the LEM trainer, X-1, M-24 (lifting body). The M-24 is surprising because there is so much wood (frame) and it's inside has a "just struck togther look." It's next to some recreational camping trailers at the Dryden Rec Office: reminds me something you can borrow for the weekend. For net.arch: the system was configured with 4 processors, two memory controllers and an I/O controller. There are about 10 disks (8 Fujitsu Eagles), and a Hyperchannel to several SEL-32s. This system is replacing a Cyber 70 series mainframe. For net.unix: EMBOS is tauted as UNIX-like. It's to a degree like UNIX as VMS is (sort of) like UNIX. They are running release 9 of version 1 of EMBOS. It uses main memory intelligently for performance (caching) and minimizes big I/O (but you can feel this at times). The editor is emacs with a slightly different set of keybindings. Unix SV.2 is not yet running on this system. I can give more info to those people interested if you send me mail. You have to get use to things like: v --- prompt : infile > proc > outfile : infile > proc ->> outfile ^ -- concat stderr as well as stdout to outfile : infile > proc1 | proc2 >> outfile || proc3 ^--- "||" == unix '&' commands like files == ls == vms directory dir == cd,pwd == set default bind == ld == link and so on --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,decwrl,allegra}!ames!aurora!eugene emiya@ames-vmsb.ARPA ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!ariel!mtunf!mtung!mtunh!inuxi!inuxc!pur-ee!wd9get From: pur-ee!wd9get (Brandt) Subject: Space Shuttle Audio & Video Date: 17 Jun 85 20:07:45 GMT Reply-To: wd9get@pur-ee.UUCP (Brandt) Organization: Electrical Engineering Department , Purdue University I watched the launch of Discovery on a TVRO system this morning, and I must say it was a refreshing change from trying to sort out the junk the network newscasters clog up the airways with. If you have been looking for the sat info, I caught the NASA link on Satcom F1R (F1 in most sat mags) on transponder 18. F1 is in geosync over 139 W longitude. A different magazine showed the NASA link to be on Galaxy G1 (the next sat west of F1) on transponder 13. I didn't try to confirm this as G1 comes in very poorly on a 7 ft dish from central Indiana, and I was also trying to video tape the launch. For those of you with HF ham radio low band gear or a shortwave receiver, the Goddard Amateur Radio Club in Greenbelt, MD is again retransmitting the shuttle audio on 3.860, 7.185, and 14.290 MHz. -- --Keith E. Brandt wd9get@pur-ee.UUCP "Goodbye, cruel world that was my home- there's cleaner space out here to roam. Put my feet up on the moons of Mars- sit back, relax, and count the stars." --Ian Anderson ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!ucbvax!ucsfcgl!arnold From: ucsfcgl!arnold (Ken Arnold%CGL) Subject: Re: Shuttle Computers and STS power consumption Date: 21 Jun 85 02:57:33 GMT Reply-To: arnold@ucsfcgl.UUCP (PUT YOUR NAME HERE) Organization: UCSF Computer Graphics Lab In article <2322@mordor.UUCP> @S1-A.ARPA,@MIT-MC.ARPA:jim@TYCHO.ARPA writes: >A recent posting about shuttle cooling reminded me of an article I ran >across in an old (1980) IBM document. The article described the >onboard computers as System/4Pi model AP-101 processors. The AP-101 >appears to be a 3 KIP machine with an intensely ugly architecture. >Main memory was described as 104KW (36 bit) of core (really core!) >with 400 ns access time. ... Did they actually use this refugee from >the Smithsonian on the Shuttle and if so are there any reasonable >plans afoot to upgrade? One of the main problems with space ship design is that, by the time the design sits on the launching pad, its technology is quite out of date. This is true of all technology, but since computer technology evolves considerably faster than other kinds, it is much more critical (as the above description shows). The California Space Resources institute (attached to the University of California at San Diego) is currently coordinating a study which includes this problem, relating the design of the space station. As I understand it, the problem is to define computer (and where possible other techonological) needs by interface, and maximum physical attributes (which, as things get smaller and generate less heat, becomes not much of a problem); basically a form of modular technology design. That's what seemed most promising last time I was informed, but it has been several months. As an aside, in case you've been wondering where your defense dollars are going, the same problem exists in front line equipment, which takes just as long to get to the front. Of course, the degree to which computers are out of date varies among different pieces of equipment. Ken Arnold ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Spartan Launched -- Laser Test Rescheduled Date: 20 Jun 85 23:56:52 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill Spartan-1 was deployed by the Discovery crew today. The satellite will scan the stars for sources of X-rays, concentrating on the center of the Milky Way Galaxy, where astronomers believe exists a black hole. The satellite will be retrieved in two days and returned to Earth. Meanwhile, NASA rescheduled the test of a low powered laser system for 0730 EDT Friday. The laser is to be fired from a mountaintop observatory and reflected by the shuttle. A measurement given to the shuttle's autopilot was in feet instead of nautical miles, so the shuttle thought the mountaintop was 9000 miles above the Earth instead of a little over a mile and a half; the result was that the mirror ended up on the wrong side of the ship. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!sun!idi!burl!rcj From: burl!rcj (Curtis Jackson) Subject: Re: Liftoff Date: 21 Jun 85 14:26:22 GMT Reply-To: rcj@burl.UUCP (Curtis Jackson) Organization: AT&T Technologies, Burlington NC In article <1107@peora.UUCP> jer@peora.UUCP (J. Eric Roskos) writes: >>Space shuttle Discovery lifted off on time today, >>at 0733 EDT. It was everything but eventful. > >Pooh. You must have had to have been there. For the first time in a long >time, you could actually SEE it clearly until the SRBs quit going. >It was good to photograph, too. I was in the VIP viewing area for STS-5; on that one we actually saw the SRBs blown off and watched them tumble flashing in the sunlight almost all the way to water impact. Stunning! -- The MAD Programmer -- 919-228-3313 (Cornet 291) alias: Curtis Jackson ...![ ihnp4 ulysses cbosgd mgnetp ]!burl!rcj ...![ ihnp4 cbosgd akgua masscomp ]!clyde!rcj ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #196 ******************* 24-Jun-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #197 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 197 Today's Topics: Comet Machholz NASA and 'Shuttle Down' Re: Shuttle Computers and STS power consumption ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Jun 85 9:07:10 EDT From: Dick Koolish Subject: Comet Machholz To: space@mit-mc.arpa Comet Machholz (1985e) The following positions are from IAU Circulars 4071 and 4072. 1985 ET RA (1950) DEC (1950) MAG June 8 2h 10.28m +20d 27.7m 8.0 10 2 28.22 +21 17.8 12 2 47.50 +22 03.0 7.2 14 3 08.12 +22 41.8 16 3 30.09 +23 12.0 6.2 18 3 53.38 +23 31.8 20 4 17.97 +23 39.5 5.0 22 4 43.95 +23 33.4 July 6 8h 21.46m +22d 09.2m 4.1 8 8 47.07 +22 04.6 10 9 12.60 +21 47.2 5.4 12 9 37.96 +21 16.2 14 10 02.95 +20 31.8 6.3 16 10 27.27 +19 35.4 18 10 50.64 +18 28.9 7.0 20 11 12.84 +17 14.7 22 11 33.69 +15 55.6 7.7 24 11 53.11 +14 33.9 26 12 11.10 +13 11.9 8.3 28 12 27.69 +11 51.1 30 12 42.94 +10 32.8 8.9 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!markb From: sdcrdcf!markb (Mark Biggar) Subject: NASA and 'Shuttle Down' Date: 21 Jun 85 20:31:23 GMT Reply-To: markb@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Mark Biggar) Organization: System Development Corp. R+D, Santa Monica It appears that the novel 'Shuttle Down' by Lee Corry has done some good: SANTIAGO (UPI) - The military government has approved a National Aeronautics and Space Administration plan to build an emergency space shuttle landing site on Easter Island, 2,000 miles off the Chilean coast. "The decision has been taken. All that is needed now is for President (Augusto) Pinochet to approve the agreement with NASA." said Adm. Jose Toribio Merino. NASA proposed lengthening the present runway on the small South Pacific island by 400 meters so the space shuttle can land there in the case of an aborted takeoff. The NASA plan required approval by the four-man junta that acts as Clile's legislature. Critics claim it will damage the island's unique collection of massive heads carved out of volcanic stone by unknown sculptors many centuries ago, and it will turn the polynesian possession into a U.S. military base. ------------- Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!hrpd3!ken From: hrpd3!ken (K.COCHRAN) Subject: Re: Shuttle Computers and STS power consumption Date: 21 Jun 85 17:01:22 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Holmdel NJ Could the use of core memory have anything to do with data integrity when cosmic rays pass through the shuttle, or if power drops unexpectedly. Ken Cochran vax135!hr1ar!ken ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #197 ******************* 29-Jun-85 1554 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #198 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 198 Today's Topics: Laser Test Successful Nuclear Shuttle? Mach Re: SPACE Digest V5 #196: french Hermes shuttle You know it's real when... Shuttle Main Computers Modularity Re: SPACE Digest V5 #196: french Hermes shuttle Care to add me to spaaaaace? July Byte ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Laser Test Successful Date: 22 Jun 85 00:18:55 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill What started as a 5 mm wide laser beam grew to 30 feet in diameter by the time it had reached the shuttle today. In the test, the beam was reflected perfectly back to the ground, and controllers were able to track the shuttle for over 2 minutes. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 85 08:39:09 EDT From: DIETZ@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: Nuclear Shuttle? To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA There was some work back in the 60's on nuclear rockets. The idea is to use a high temperature reactor to heat hydrogen, then expel the hydrogen out a rocket nozzle. The low molecular weight of the xhaust gives the rocket really high Isp, potentially as high as 1200 (vs. ~400 for the SSME's). This idea has problems. It's hard to get a reactor powerful enough to lift a rocket from the ground. Temperatures and power densities in the reactor have to be very high. The rocket would be very nice for propelling a mission to Mars, but that wasn't (and isn't) in the budget. Some of the problems with a purely nuclear rocket may be avoided by using a nuclear/chemical hybrid. The idea here is to use a nuclear reactor to preheat some of the chemical fuel before its injection into the combustion chamber. Since the preheated fuel need not be at exhaust temperatures the temperature of the reactor can be lowered, easing some of the engineering problems. Also, the reactor need not supply all the energy to the exhaust: even a (say) 20% contribution would raise Isp significantly. Since the amount of fuel needed is an exponential function of Isp, there's a chance for real savings here. What are the big problems here? (1) reactor mass. This can be minimized by using a compact core of highly purified fissile materials. Only a few kg of U235 are needed, if properly moderated. (2) Reactor shielding. Neutron shielding should not be hard; we can afford to use exotic elements, like gadolinium, with very high thermal neutron capture cross sections. Gamma shielding is more of a problem. The reactor should be at the back of the rocket; personnel at the front, with fuel in between. It may pay to not use the reactor at full power until one is in less dense air to avoid gamma rays reflected back from the atmosphere. (3) Reactor waste. Unlike a nuclear power station, we can afford to replace and reprocess the core very oftwen (perhaps after every flight). This minimizes the quantity of nuclear debris released should the rocket explode. Waste from launch decaying during the flight will produce waste heat that must be radiated away, but since waste has not been builtup over long periods the power level should not be too high (and we can use this heat for on-orbit power). ------- ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 1985 11:36:54 PDT Subject: Mach From: Alan R. Katz To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: katz@USC-ISIF.ARPA According to Asimov's Bibiliography of scientists, etc., Mach (of Mach's principle) IS the same Mach as in Mach number. By the way, Mach greatly influenced Einstein in his thinking about General Relativity. Alan ------- ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 85 09:23:05 EDT (Monday) From: Caruso.Wbst@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #196: french Hermes shuttle To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: Caruso.Wbst@Xerox.ARPA >However you can bet the french Hermes shuttle will use something better. It already has a glass cockpit almost like the planned AIRBUS 320`s. What are the french Hermes shuttle & AIRBUS 320 ? Ray Caruso Caruso'wbst@Xerox.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 85 13:50:02 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: You know it's real when... To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A On STS-51F, Space Calendar reports: "The launch date has been moved up from 15 July to 12 July by Lockheed managers to avoid weekend overtime pay." ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 85 14:18:52 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Shuttle Main Computers To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A Actually, the hydraulic voting is an elegant solution to the need for redundancy and the avoidance of common mode failures. Each computer independantly controls actuators. If one computer screws up, the other four actuators present enough pressure to overcome. If two go one way, and 3 the other, controls are mushy, but still function. I do find the 120 pounds of computer a bit silly. I can only figure they were used for DOD reasons. A commercial operation would NEVER have used such aging hunks of antidilivian technology. For the weight cost of those things, they could have 20 real computers. To put things in perspective, a few years ago the astronauts took a Grid Compass PC on board. The carry on machine was the most powerful computer on board, and it fits into a brief case and only takes half the depth. I'd say (in 1985 off the shelf technology) each shuttle main computer represents about one PC board of computer power, and probably less. It's getting to the point where you can walk into a Computerland and buy peripherals that are nearly as powerful as the shuttle computers. (Like the new Hayes modem). Even the requirement for core can be nicely handled by battery back up or by EPROM. (Although I'd personally recommend they buy Japaneses: the US EPROMS I've worked with in a commercial environment had a serious bit dropping rate. By that I mean that if you have 50 of them running for a month, you'd probably have one or two that have leaky bits. I NEVER had a drop out from the equivalent Japanese product. Of course that was five years ago, so maybe the US manufacturers have learned how to make a decent PROM by now...) ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 85 15:28:17 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Modularity To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A I am continuously surprised by comments from the aerospace community that lead one to believe that modularity and upward replacement are a new discovery. Most of us on this net know that is not the case. A remember arguing with a friend in the planetary sciences about the need for plug in bus type satellites some years back, even before the Mariner Mk 4 was brought up as a 'new' concept. Now I'm hearing that NASA has decided to reinvent the concept again for the space station? I am leading back to my comments on the space shuttle computers. IF the shuttle electronics are designed to the standards which are considered NORMAL in the computer industry, it should be possible to pull the box and plug in another standard machine. As an example of this philosophy, I point you to the DEC Q-Bus. Years ago you got a quad hieght board that held a CPU, and another quad height board for 4k of ram. The system has gone through growth and evolution to the point where you can put the equivalent of an 11/70 in one slot and give it a few meg of ram to play with using a couple more slots. And you can run the same OS and programs you ran before, AND use the same peripherals you had before, except that they are upward compatible and have evolved also. I often suspect that the aerospace engineers have been used to such long design cycles that they never have had to face obsolence so immediately and personally as have those of us in the electronics rat race. I personally went through 3 complete product line design cycles in less than 7 years at a previous job as an R&D manager. It took that level of effort to keep our noses even with the competition. You project the curves on RAM density, and target your systems to reach prototype when the vendors are sampling, and to go into production when the first production runs start. When you deal with that kind of cycle, modifiability and upgrading become a way of life and a PRIMARY concern of the design effort, not an interesting abstraction. You may have to change parts in the middle of the stream because of availability problems, pricing, changing market requirements, the mood of the CEO's wife last night... Once you have learned this mode of thinking, anyone who designs otherwise seems extremely amateurish and quite foolish. What's future shock? Hasn't everything ALWAYS been changing every year? Dale Amon ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 85 09:23:19 EDT (Monday) From: Caruso.Wbst@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #196: french Hermes shuttle To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: Caruso.Wbst@Xerox.ARPA >However you can bet the french Hermes shuttle will use something better. It already has a glass cockpit almost like the planned AIRBUS 320`s. What are the french Hermes shuttle & AIRBUS 320 ? Ray Caruso Caruso.wbst@Xerox.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 85 17:29 PDT From: Christopher Garrigues <7thSon@CERRIDWYN.SSF.Symbolics.COM> Reply-To: 7thSon@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA Subject: Care to add me to spaaaaace? To: Space@MIT-MC.ARPA Reply-To: 7THSON@RUSSIAN.SPA.Symbolics.COM Hi there, I'm told that SPACE is an interesting mailing list. If this is true, I'd like to be added, if it isn't, well....add me anyway. Chris Garrigues ------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 85 20:52:33 PDT From: Richard K. Jennings To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC Subject: July Byte I JUST got a copy of the July BYTE. In addition to the normal fare, it also contains the following articles (reproduced below so all you space fans who don't subscribe will run out and buy one before they are all gone): Programming Project: New Perspectives on Nearby Stars (Macintosh) Updating the Oldest Science (Observers around the globe are using microcomputers in a variety of astronomical observations) Microcomputers in NASA's SIR-B (The Shuttle Imaging Radar experiment enjoys a network of personal computers for data acquisition and analysis) Comet Lines in Fortran (The program described calculates the positions of asteroids and comets) Tracking Earth Satellites (The Stumpff program can help you calculate earth-orbiting satellite positions with high precision) Automating a Telescope (Codirector of the Fairborn Observatory describes ways of computerizing the repetitious tasks in variable star photometry) Astronautical Computing with Micros (Small Systems increase the amateur astronomer's reach) Monitoring Halley's Comet [Review] (Three programs for tracking the return of the celestial visitor) Space-Flight Simulators [Review-Apple] (Link up with a Space Station or travel to Saturn) The software is not listed in BYTE, but is in the Public Domain, and offered through the BYTE BB (617-861-9774). Does this net have a software archive that some New Hampshire resident could dump these programs into? Rich. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #198 ******************* !29-Jun-85 1550 @MIT-MC.ARPA:Purtill.SIPB@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Re: Shuttle computers Received: from MIT-MC.ARPA by S1-A.ARPA with TCP; 29 Jun 85 15:38:07 PDT Received: from MIT-MULTICS.ARPA by MIT-MC.ARPA 27 Jun 85 23:17:58 EST Date: Thu, 27 Jun 85 18:42 EDT From: Mark Purtill Subject: Re: Shuttle computers To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA Message-ID: <850627224207.719135@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA> Those of you who have been wondering about the space shuttles computers might want to chack out the September, 1984, issue of the Communications of the ACM. It's got a special section on "computing in space," including an interview with some of the people at IBM who developed the computers. For instance, it tells one that each computer weighs about 120 lbs (55 kg) and that there are five, one of which is a backup which runs special software written independently by Rockwell. It seems to go into detail about how the four main computers communicate and vote and such like (I haven't actually read it yet, not having the time.) Mark ^.-.^ Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA **Insert favorite disclaimer here** ((")) 2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139 30-Jun-85 0400 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #199 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 199 Today's Topics: "The Dream is Alive" IMAX movie Re: Who are Mach and Hawking? FLASH! NASA enters the digital age!... Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Re: Who are Mach and Hawking? Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Landing IMAX and the Shuttle flights Shuttle computer questions Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights The Dream is Alive Space Shuttle Computers Spartan Retrieved Space Whoopee Duplication of NASA news service articles No Damage to Discovery Mach's Principle Shuttle computer systems Re: Shoot the Moon becoming an astronaut Planned Soviet Phobos probe Possible Solar Systems ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!wanginst!apollo!eric From: apollo!eric (Eric Peters) Subject: "The Dream is Alive" IMAX movie Date: 26 Jun 85 20:11:37 GMT Organization: Apollo Computer, Chelmsford, Mass. "The Dream is Alive", the new IMAX movie about the shuttle was released to the public last weekend, and I was lucky enough to be invited by the Smithsonian to see it. First the one-word review: WOW!!! More detail: See this film if there is any way possible! I think it will do more to revive interest in space and confidence in ourselves than any prior event, including the moon landings. What kept going through my mind as I sat watching was "This is real!" And in spite of the fact that it's "only a movie", it has fantastic impact. There are several launch scenes, including one from the tower right next to the spacecraft. The sound, by Ben Burtt of Lucasfilm, is terrific. Good Lord!!! The launches alone will make a believer of you. There is one landing scene from the point of view of the shuttle pilot. If you've ever flown a landing in a conventional aircraft, you'll appre- ciate what a 30-degree approach angle is. It feels like riding a rock out of a catapult! There is some time taken with astronaut training exercises, and for the most part, I didn't find them too interesting. The swimming pool in Houston where they practice working in "zero-g" is huge, but just a swimming pool after all. There is one training scene worth seeing, but I don't want to spoil it. You'll know it when you see it. A lot of the film is of day-to-day activities in the spacecraft, and this I found fascinating. The little blurry images we see on TV of the astro- nauts give almost no feeling of what it's like to be there. This movie fixes that problem. After a while, I even began to get used to people standing around at odd orientations and flying through hatchways in floors, walls, and ceilings. There was also a fair amount of time spent looking out the windows. There are a number of scenes of activity in the cargo bay, including the repairs on Solar Max. And the Earth is gorgeous! From shuttle altitude, high mountains stand out in clear relief, and a lot of detail of human civilization is visible. A good deal of time was spent just letting the Earth glide by outside, and it is wonderful! A comment I heard while leaving the theater: "I may be afraid of flying, but I WANT TO GO!" I can only add now I want to go too! So SEE THIS MOVIE, if you care anything about space! Eric Peters (...decvax!wanginst!apollo!eric) Apollo Computer Inc., Chelmsford, MA 01824 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!trwatf!rlgvax!prcrs!hadron!klr From: hadron!klr (Kurt L. Reisler) Subject: Re: Who are Mach and Hawking? Date: 23 Jun 85 13:37:37 GMT Reply-To: klr@hadron.UUCP (Kurt L. Reisler) Organization: Hadron, Inc., Fairfax, VA In article <2366@mordor.UUCP> @S1-A.ARPA,@MIT-MC.ARPA:FRIEDRICH%GAV@LLL-MFE.ARPA writes: >From: FRIEDRICH%GAV@LLL-MFE.ARPA > >A question a couple of days ago asked, in effect, "who are Mach and Hawking, >and what do they know?" > >Now, for something completely different. Mach's Principle remains a >conjecture only. Stephen Hawking is another story. Hawking is, in my >own humble opinion (and that of many others) the world's greatest living >astrophysicist. Unfortunately, he has a degenerative nerve disease that >has crippled and is slowly killing him. He does his mathematics in his >head and dictates to graduate students who have been specially trained >to understand his speech (mostly by experience, I gather). Charles River >Data Systems of Natick, Massachusetts, deserves a great big hearty THANKS >for donating a supermicro or two to Hawking, which will probably help him >communicate with others. > I, for one, am glad to hear that Stephen Hawking is still in there fighting! It is good to know that this great mind is great in spirit as well! ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!hao!ames!eugene From: ames!eugene (Eugene Miya) Subject: FLASH! NASA enters the digital age!... Date: 26 Jun 85 01:01:06 GMT Organization: NASA-Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA Wow! They installed a push button phone in my office while I went to Usenix. It took NASA decades to reach this point, and I beat the Chief Engineer whom still has to rotate. Ames has an ESS #1 [if you can believe that]. Now if I can only get them to buy me a Xerox Dorado..... --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,decwrl,allegra}!ames!aurora!eugene @ames-vmsb.ARPA:emiya@jup.DECNET ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!brl-tgr!ron From: ron@brl-tgr.ARPA (Ron Natalie ) Subject: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Date: 26 Jun 85 03:55:44 GMT Organization: Ballistic Research Lab > Aerospace museum in the IMAX theatre. The films really have to be seen to be > believed. What I would like to know is if any more recent film has been produced > than "Hail Columbia". I remember seeing the IMAX cameras on board the Shuttles > from news shorts, and I hope to see some results from that while I am there. > While I am at it, does anyone know anywhere else that IMAX films are being > shown? > The new movie, filmed from IMAX cameras aboard the shuttle is called "The Dream is Alive" and is showing at NASM. By the way, cine freaks should find their way up into the projection room, looking at the projector close up is obligatory. -Ron ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!cybvax0!frog!john From: frog!john (John Woods) Subject: Re: Who are Mach and Hawking? Date: 25 Jun 85 16:07:06 GMT Organization: Charles River Data Systems, Framingham MA > From: FRIEDRICH%GAV@LLL-MFE.ARPA > A question a couple of days ago asked, in effect, "who are Mach and Hawking, > and what do they know?" > > Now, for something completely different. Mach's Principle remains a > conjecture only. Stephen Hawking is another story. Hawking is, in my > own humble opinion (and that of many others) the world's greatest living > astrophysicist. Unfortunately, he has a degenerative nerve disease that > has crippled and is slowly killing him. He does his mathematics in his > head and dictates to graduate students who have been specially trained > to understand his speech (mostly by experience, I gather). Charles River > Data Systems of Natick, Massachusetts, deserves a great big hearty THANKS > for donating a supermicro or two to Hawking, which will probably help him > communicate with others. > The book "Stephen Hawking's Universe", by I forget which author, tells a lot of fascinating tales about Dr. Hawking. Not only does he do mathematics in his head, but he has an immense memory for text: the book tells of one time when, three days after dictating several chapters of a latest book to his secretary, told her to correct a couple of words in a specific paragraph of a specific page, which he suddenly realized he had mis-dictated! One can, in fact, understand Dr. Hawking without a lot of trouble, at least if the room is quiet and you try real hard; when Dr. Hawking visited CRDS a while back (to express thanks for the machine [CRDS, in some meta-sense, also happily accepts your thanks, too :-)], drop off bug reports, and to show off a video tape about him made by the BBC), I also found that I could tell most of what he was saying -- though I was glad of the interpreter, as I wanted to be sure! (As an ex-physics student, I revelled in the chance to worship at the feet of a god!-) -- John Woods, Charles River Data Systems, Framingham MA, (617) 626-1101 ...!decvax!frog!john, ...!mit-eddie!jfw, jfw%mit-ccc@MIT-XX.ARPA ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!trwatf!rlgvax!prcrs!hadron!klr From: hadron!klr (Kurt L. Reisler) Subject: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Date: 27 Jun 85 14:23:23 GMT Reply-To: klr@hadron.UUCP (Kurt L. Reisler) Organization: Hadron, Inc., Fairfax, VA In article <1306@islenet.UUCP> tracyw@islenet.UUCP (Tracy Walters) writes: >I'm going to be in the Washington D.C. area for the month of July attending a >Data Comm school, and plan on (as always) going to the Smithsonian to gawk at >all the exhibits. The last time I was there I spent one whole day in the >Aerospace museum in the IMAX theatre. The films really have to be seen to be >believed. ...I would like to know is if any more recent film has been produced >than "Hail Columbia". I remember seeing the IMAX cameras on board the Shuttles >from news shorts, and I hope to see some results from that while I am there. >While I am at it, does anyone know anywhere else that IMAX films are being >shown? > >Thanks, >Tracyw @ Islenet, Inc., Honolulu, HI. >MCI Mail: 231-8682 "The Dream is Alive" is the latest. I have only heard the ROAR of the liftoff from the lobby of the theater. Get to the NASM (National Air & Space Museum) EARLY! Tickets for this movie sell out VERY fast. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!pbear!peterb From: pbear!peterb Subject: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Date: 27 Jun 85 17:57:00 GMT > One of the problems that they had filming the movie was the gyroscopic > effect of the film reels in the camera. Seems it was difficult to move the > camera out of the plane of rotation. Note that the camera can eat 1000 feet > of film in a matter of 3 minutes. > -- > Louis A. Mamakos WA3YMH University of Maryland, Computer Science Center One simple way to fix that is to have the film reels turn in oppisite directions. This way the gyroscopic effect is almost cancelled. Since they are going to make a newer camera, I don't see much difficulty in modifying the take up reel so that it spins backwards... Peter Barada {ihnp4!inmet|{harvard|cca}!ima}!pbear!peterb ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxm!sftig!sftri!sfmag!eagle!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Landing Date: 25 Jun 85 03:01:36 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill At 0912 EDT today, right on scheduled, the Discovery touched down in a flawless landing at EAFB. NASA officials initially stated worry over a six inch track in the sand runway that they feared was due to locked brakes; later, though, it was announced that there was no brake damage on this flight -- the track was due to wet spots in the sand. However, NASA said that this landing was rough enough that had it been at KSC, another blown tire would probably have resulted. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!gymble!lll-crg!dual!islenet!tracyw From: islenet!tracyw (Tracy Walters) Subject: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Date: 23 Jun 85 13:32:13 GMT Organization: Islenet Inc., Honolulu I'm going to be in the Washington D.C. area for the month of July attending a Data Comm school, and plan on (as always) going to the Smithsonian to gawk at all the exhibits. The last time I was there I spent one whole day in the Aerospace museum in the IMAX theatre. The films really have to be seen to be believed. What I would like to know is if any more recent film has been produced than "Hail Columbia". I remember seeing the IMAX cameras on board the Shuttles from news shorts, and I hope to see some results from that while I am there. While I am at it, does anyone know anywhere else that IMAX films are being shown? Thanks, Tracyw @ Islenet, Inc., Honolulu, HI. MCI Mail: 231-8682 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!gymble!lll-crg!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-monet!fisher From: fisher@monet.DEC Subject: Shuttle computer questions Date: 25 Jun 85 13:22:41 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: DEC Engineering Network For an excellent article about the shuttle computer system, see CACM, September 1984. Of course, I can't find the article now, but AP101 sounds like the right model for the computers. One of the reasons that these things are so old is that the lead time for developing a thing so complex as the shuttle is enormous. Remember that the shuttle project was firing up way back in the early to mid 70s. (You know, IBM 360 and 370 time?) Once you start making major design decisions you have to freeze the design using then-current technology...you can't continue to track it. No 68020s back then! (Were there even 6502s?) In any case, I have read somewhere (probably Aviation Week) that there is a program to upgrade the shuttle computers. I don't recall whether it is just in the planning stages, or if it is funded, or what. BTW, core (or at least plated wire) is still alive and well in spacecraft. You can't beat it for cosmic-ray immunity and power-fail memory retention! Burns UUCP: ... {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dvinci!fisher ARPA: fisher%dvinci.dec@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!cvl!umd5!louie From: umd5!louie Subject: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Date: 26 Jun 85 17:27:03 GMT Reply-To: louie@umd5.UUCP (Louis Mamakos) Organization: U of Md, CSC, College Park, Md Summary: "The Dream Is Alive" - New IMAX flick Keywords: The new IMAX flick is being shown at the Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum in Washington, DC. Most of the footage was filmed by the shuttle astronauts over 3 missions. It is simply wonderful! Not to be missed if you've got the opportunity to see it. I was at a special screening of the film last night for the Smithsonian Resident Associates, and one of the gentlemen involved in creating the film said that all parties involved (NASA, the Smithsonian, and privite industry) are very pleased with the film, and are all set to do another. He said (off the record) that the Space Telescope mission might be the subject of the next film. In addition, he was talking about a new IMAX camera, with a larger film capacity which would also be space rated. This means that it could be carried on EVA excursions or just mounted on the shuttle's arm. One of the problems that they had filming the movie was the gyroscopic effect of the film reels in the camera. Seems it was difficult to move the camera out of the plane of rotation. Note that the camera can eat 1000 feet of film in a matter of 3 minutes. -- Louis A. Mamakos WA3YMH University of Maryland, Computer Science Center Internet: louie@umd5.arpa UUCP: {seismo!umcp-cs, ihnp4!rlgvax}!cvl!umd5!louie ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!gamma!pyuxww!pyuxqq!pyuxh!jrm1 From: pyuxh!jrm1 (J McKeel) Subject: The Dream is Alive Date: 25 Jun 85 13:31:08 GMT Organization: Bell Communications Research, Piscataway, NJ The Dream is Alive is a 30 - 35 minute documentary of the space shuttle. I just returned from Washington, DC where the Smithsonian Institute is showing the film. The film is shown on the Smithsonian's giant wall screen. It shows actual footage of launches, deployments, life in space, etc. The film is unlike the garbled pictures we see on TV. It was quite an experience. Entry to the Smithsonian is free, but the film costs $1.50 (well worth it). If you want any more information, reply via e-mail to: John McKeel ihnp4!pyuxh!jrm1 "I wouldn't eat Astronaut Ice Cream, would you?" ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!gymble!lll-crg!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dvinci!fisher From: fisher@dvinci.DEC Subject: Space Shuttle Computers Date: 28 Jun 85 14:00:09 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: DEC Engineering Network <> > ...the fifth one is different from the other 4; it is made by Rockwell... I could be proven wrong, but I am quite sure that all 5 cpus are the same. The fifth one, however, was PROGRAMMED by Rockwell rather than IBM. The quintuple hardware redundancy provides backup for hardware failure. The separate program for #5 provides a backup for the software. BTW, the 5 computers only run as a quintuple redundant set during critical phases of the mission (ascent and decent, and perhaps during some of the prelaunch activities). At other times, they are decoupled and given separate tasks, with only double or triple redundancy for such things as orbital calculations, environment management, and running the arm. Burns UUCP: ... {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dvinci!fisher ARPA: fisher%dvinci.dec@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Spartan Retrieved Date: 23 Jun 85 00:30:26 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill The crew of the shuttle Discovery today successfully recovered the Spartan-1 satellite and stowed it back in the payload bay for return to Earth. A grappling pin on the satellite was slightly out of position, and the RMS had to be extended to its 50 foot limit twice in order to grab the satellite. Landing is set for 0914 EDT Monday at Rogers Dry Lake, EAFB. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jun 85 12:45 PDT From: LShilkoff.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Space Whoopee To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: LShilkoff.es@Xerox.ARPA I just heard on the radio NASA is planning for experiments involving intimate relations on board the future space station with married couples and couples with "significant relationships". Question: How do you avoid moving from a stationary point in space while having intimate relations. I understand the first space based birth control device will be called the heat shield :-) sorryijusthadto Larry ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!gymble!lll-crg!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-monet!fisher From: fisher@monet.DEC Subject: Duplication of NASA news service articles Date: 25 Jun 85 13:27:01 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: DEC Engineering Network <> I don't intend this to be a flame...please take it as the helpful request which it is intended to be. Yesterday I got at least 9 copies of the Nasa news network article! In addition, today I got another copy. Today's was not identical; it did have several duplicate sub-articles, however. None of my other articles were duplicated, so I don't think the problem is local. Has anyone else had this problem? Does anyone know how to fix it? Thanks, Burns UUCP: ... {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dvinci!fisher ARPA: fisher%dvinci.dec@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!spuxll!abnji!u1100a!pyuxww!gamma!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: No Damage to Discovery Date: 26 Jun 85 04:28:01 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill With the exception of around 70 chipped tiles, the Discovery suffered no damage during its mission, NASA reported today. The shuttle is to be returned to KSC in three days and readied for its next flight, on 24 August. The Challenger is to lift off on 14 July. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 85 03:19:58 EDT From: Dave.Touretzky@CMU-CS-A Subject: Mach's Principle To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC From the June 22nd issue of Science News, page 389: "Ernst Mach, who was both a theoretical physicist and a philosopher of science, worked out what became known as Mach's Principle. As Mach was a philosopher, different commentators differ as to what it was he actually said, but in the most general sense Mach's Principle proposes that the mass of any body is related to the masses of all the other bodies in the universe. This means that if the geometrical relationship between a given body and the rest of the universe changes, the mass of the given body will change." The article goes on to explain how Mach's Principle appears to violate Einstein's theory of relativity. A recent test conducted by NBS (the latest in a long string of tests of Einstein's theory) produced results consistent with relativity theory; no mass change was detected. However, some scientists apparently feel that Einstein didn't disregard Mach's Principle; rather, he interpreted it in a way which causes it to cancel itself out. Thus, the universe could still exhibit Local Lorentz Invariance (as predicted by relativity) without contradicting Mach. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 85 11:09 MST From: Charlie Spitzer Subject: Shuttle computer systems Reply-To: Spitzer%pco@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA To: Space@MIT-MC.ARPA See Communications of the ACM, Sept 1984 issue for an interview with Tony Macina, manager of flight operations for IBM's On-board Space Shuttle Program. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!decwrl!sun!amdahl!ems From: amdahl!ems (ems) Subject: Re: Shoot the Moon Date: 26 Jun 85 21:55:21 GMT Organization: Circle C Shellfish Ranch, Shores-of-the-Pacific, Ca > From: DIETZ@RUTGERS.ARPA > > The Apollo missions revealed one serious obstacle to lunar colonization > and exploitation: an almost total lack of volatile elements in lunar > rock. There is very little carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen or halogens; > even lead is seriously depleted. [ ... ] > > At any rate, this is a serious obstacle to any would-be colonist. Hydrogen > is necessary for water, food and rocket fuel. Carbon and nitrogen are > needed for food and plastics. Fluorine is vital in the chemical processing > of lunar materials. > > Delivering this material to the moon by rocket is expensive, even with > advanced orbital transfer vehicles. [ ... ] Are there not enough protons in the solar wind to provide hydrogen? Or do we lack the technology to combine the protons with electrons efficiently? -- E. Michael Smith ...!{hplabs,ihnp4,amd,nsc}!amdahl!ems This is the obligatory disclaimer of everything. (Including but not limited to: typos, spelling, diction, logic, and nuclear war) ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 25 Jun 85 07:56:42 PDT To: crash!noscvax!space@mit-mc Subject: becoming an astronaut NASA this summer will change the way in which it solicits applications for astronaut positions. * Applications from civilians will be accepted on a continuing basis beginning Aug. 1, 1985. The military service will provide nominees to NASA on an annual basis. Selection usually will be made in the spring each yr. with successful candidates reporting in the summer. * The number of candidates selected each yr. will be determined by mission requirements and the attrition rate of the astronaut corp. * Both pilots and mission specialist astronauts will be selected. Pilot astronauts are responsible for control of the Space Shuttle during launch and entry and on-orbit maneuvers. Mission specialists responsibilities include management and operation of Space Shuttle systems and support to payloads and experiment during flight. * Min Requirements Pilot: -A bachelor's degree from an accredited institution in engineering, physical science, biological science or mathematics. -1,000 hours pilot in command time in jet aircraft. -ability to pass a NASA Class I flight physical. -height 64 to 76 inches. Min Req.Mission Spec: - a bachelors degree from an accredited inst. in engineering, physical sciences, biological science or math. -degree must be supplemented by three yrs. of related professional experience. Advanced degrees are desirable and may be substituted for experience. -ability to pass a NASA Class II flight physical. - height 60 to 76 inches. * NASA has an affirmative action goal of including qualified minorities and women among newly selected astronauts. For further information write -> NASA Johnson Space Center AHX/Astronaut Selection Office Houston, TX 77058 **from Intercomex Bulletin Board crash!usiiden!markf@nosc ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 85 1906 PDT From: Ross Finlayson Subject: Planned Soviet Phobos probe To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA BC-MARS (SCIENCETIMES) By WALTER SULLIVAN c. 1985 N.Y. Times News Service NEW YORK - In contrast an earlier reluctance of the Russians to provide advance information on space flights, they have provided Western scientists with extensive details on the Soviet Union's 1988 mission to Mars. One of its highlights will be a 15-minute period when the spacecraft will hover 50 yards above the surface of Phobos, the planet's inner moon. Using a technique never before attempted in space, the craft will bombard the surface of Phobos with a narrow laser beam to blast off samples that can be captured and analyzed aboard the probe. According to the project plan, the beam will be so narrow that a succession of areas no larger than a pinhead will be sampled. Participating in that experiment, according to the latest Soviet description, will be the Max Planck Institute for Aeronomy at Lindau, near Gottingen, West Germany, as well as institutes in Bulgaria and the Soviet Union. The Lindau institute also contributed instruments to the Soviet Union's Vega missions to Venus. Under consideration, according to Soviet scientists, is the dropping of an instrumented device onto Phobos that could jump from place to place. Because Phobos is so small its gravity field is extremely weak. The lifting power of a grasshopper's legs should be sufficient to propel the hopping lander. Phobos is an irregular, heavily cratered object whose diameter ranges from 12 to 17 miles. It is suspected that it was originally an asteroid captured in orbit by the gravity of Mars. Circulation by the Russians of details on the Phobos mission may have been necessitated by its inclusion of at least 19 experiments from a wide range of agencies, including the European Space Agency and institutes in Austria, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Finland, France, Hungary, East and West Germany and Sweden. Such a large number of participants reflects the remarkable diversity of goals envisioned for the mission. They include orbital gamma ray and infrared scanning of both Phobos and Mars to determine regional differences in their surface composition. Similar scanning is planned for the Mars Observer planned by the United States for 1990. As pointed out last week by Dr. Michael H. Carr of the United States Geological Survey, a specialist in Martian geology, the composition of its surface has only been measured at the two locations where Viking spacecraft landed in 1976. Pessimism regarding the possibility that life once existed on the planet has been based largely on the absence of any organic material in the samples analyzed there. Others unwilling to give up hope in that regard argue that far more extensive sampling is needed to settle the issue. While infrared radiation from the Martian surface will provide clues to its composition it will not compare to the detailed information obtained by the Viking landers or from the projected Phobos probes. Analysis of gamma rays emitted by radioactive surface material as well as those generated in such material by cosmic ray bombardment will add further information. In addition to the laser experiment the surface of Phobos will be scanned by three television cameras. For additional information about its composition it will be bombarded by neutrons and by a beam of electrically charged krypton atoms. As with particles thrown up by the laser, composition of the material blasted toward the spacecraft by the krypton will be determined by a mass spectrometer. This Austrian-French-West German-Soviet experiment will penetrate only one tenth as deep as the laser, which will sample to one millionth of a meter. A radar will feel out structural features to depths as great as 650 feet within Phobos. Measurements of the Martian atmosphere, magnetic field and electrified upper atmosphere are planned as well as recordings, en route, of such phenomena as the outflow of gas from the sun, cosmic radiation, gamma ray bursts from beyond the solar system and shock waves flowing through interplanetary space. A variety of solar observations are planned, including efforts to detect pulsations of the sun that have become a focus of special interest. It should be possible to keep the spacecraft close to Phobos for 15 or 20 minutes by having the spacecraft's orbital motion around Mars almost match that of the Martian moon. The prospectus mentions placing a ''long-standing'' lander on Phobos as well as the hopping lander. It calls for seismic tests to determine the moon's internal structure. This may mean that the hopper will generate shock waves for recording by the stationary lander. A relatively rapid, 200-day flight time from the Earth is planned, thanks to the power of Soviet boosters. nyt-06-25-85 1008edt ********** ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 85 2137 PDT From: Ron Goldman Subject: Possible Solar Systems To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA a035 0233 28 Jun 85 PM-Other Worlds,0658 NASA Astronomer Expands List Of Possible Solar Systems By LEE SIEGEL AP Science Writer FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. (AP) - A NASA astronomer says he has evidence eight more nearby stars are surrounded by material that could hide planets and he predicts scientists eventually will discover 1,000 such stars orbited by planets, asteroids, comets or the dust that could form them. The evidence comes from a new analysis of observations of 500 nearby stars by the orbiting Infrared Astronomical Satellite, or IRAS, said Hartmut H.G. Aumann, of the agency's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif. The stars are known as nearby stars because they are within 75 light years of Earth. That's about 441 trillion miles - considered close to Earth by astronomical standards. Aumann outlined his findings Thursday at the annual meeting of the Astronomical Society of the Pacific. Astronomers believe that our solar system formed when a giant cloud of dust and gas collapsed into clumps of material to create the sun, the planets and orbiting asteroids and comets. Many also believe it is reasonable to expect that solar systems formed the same way around other stars under the proper conditions. Under less favorable conditions, the initial dust-and-gas cloud might not congeal into planets, but simply remain in the form of dust or small bodies. Aumann's conclusions increase to 12 the number of nearby stars studied by IRAS that are believed to be surrounded by so-called proto-planetary material. Non-IRAS studies have indicated two other stars - HL Tau and R Monceritos - may be surrounded by dust or larger bodies. And last December, astronomers observed what may be a Jupiter-like planet around the star Van Biesbroeck 8. So astronomers now believe 15 stars are orbited by at least dust, and possibly by asteroids, comets and planets. The National Aeronautics and Space Administration announced in June 1984 that Aumann had identified more than 40 stars he suspected might be surrounded by proto-planetary material. At the time, he and other scientists were nearly certain such material orbited four of those stars: Vega, Beta Pictoris, Epsilon Eridani and Fomalhaut. Another analysis by Aumann showed IRAS would be unable to detect material that might surround dimmer stars, suggesting many more ''proto-solar systems'' might exist than can be detected with current technology. ''There's a good chance that half the (2,000 known) nearby stars eventually will be found to have material around them in significant quantities that's either dusty or has accreted into planets,'' Aumann said. Don McCarthy, a University of Arizona astronomer who last year observed the possible planet around Van Biesbroeck 8, said he agreed with Aumann. ''It's a fair prediction that most stars have material around them in the form of debris or planets,'' he said. ''It could easily be the result of a common process.'' IRAS is capable of detecting such material, particularly dust, because it measures infrared radiation, or heat, emitted by the material as it is warmed by the central star. IRAS cannot detect planets because they don't emit enough heat. So astronomers who used IRAS can only infer the possible existence of planets around stars surrounded by heat-emitting dust. Aumann said he initially placed more than 40 stars on the suspected proto-solar system list because their apparent excess heat emissions suggested material orbited them. Using a tighter definition of excess heat emission, he narrowed the list and concluded that eight of the stars, plus the original four, were likely to be orbited by solid material. Aumann said the eight are Iota Eridani, Gamma Dorado, Beta Ursa Major, Beta Leonis, Alpha Corona Borealis, Gamma Serpentis and stars designated G-196 and G-838. His second analysis concluded that many dimmer stars would emit too little heat to warm surrounding material enough to be be detected by IRAS. So it is conceivable they too are proto-solar systems, he said. AP-NY-06-28-85 0531EDT *************** ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #199 ******************* 01-Jul-85 0351 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #200 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 200 Today's Topics: Re: Antigravity References IMAX movie with shots from shuttle Re: Shuttle on CNN STS schedule Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!tekcrl!vice!keithl From: vice!keithl (Keith Lofstrom) Subject: Re: Antigravity References Date: 28 Jun 85 22:01:52 GMT Organization: Tektronix, Beaverton OR In article <2295@mordor.UUCP>, jennings@AEROSPACE.ARPA mentions a gravitational oscillation "with a period of 24 hours, 50 minutes with a magnitude of 10e-6g". The author of the paper he cites suggested a new theory of gravity was needed. The period mentioned just happens to be the time the Earth takes to make one revolution RELATIVE TO THE MOON. Hmmm...perhaps he made this "Earth-shaking" discovery in a lab without windows... Gravitational fields are inverse square, and gravitational gradients are equal to the derivative of this field. This means that the lunar gravitational effect is a little stronger on the near side of the Earth than on the far side or at the center. That's the source of tides. Computationally, the size of the effect at the equator is only 1.1e-7g. This assumes a rigid Earth and no gravitational effects from tidally shifting oceans and atmosphere, though. Any astronomers care to pick up the ball (wait 'til after moonrise; it's easier then :-), and do a better calculation? Newtonianly yours; -- Keith Lofstrom MS 59-316, Tektronix, PO 500, Beaverton OR 97077 (503)-627-4052 uucp: {ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!tektronix!vice!keithl CSnet: keithl@tek ARPAnet:keithl.tek@rand-relay ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!gymble!lll-crg!dual!fortune!olson From: fortune!olson (Dave Olson) Subject: IMAX movie with shots from shuttle Date: 29 Jun 85 05:17:07 GMT Reply-To: olson@fortune.UUCP (Dave olson) Organization: Fortune Systems, Redwood City, CA Keywords: IMAX,movie The long promised IMAX movie with shots actually taken aboard the shuttle in space is out! (I believe it was first discussed here about 6 months ago.) It opened today at Great America amusement park in Santa Clara, CA. Since it was sponsored/produced by the Smithsonian, I assume it has or shortly will appear there as well. The movie has some truly great sequences, although it spends a bit too much time on shuttle launches (that is, if you've already seen Hail, Columbia). Some of the sequences include the 'rescue' of the Solar Max satellite, although not of the actual 'rescue'. Hope this isn't a redundant posting, we've had problems with one of our main news feeds lately. Dave Olson, Fortune Systems UUCP: {ihnp4,ucbvax!dual}!fortune!olson ARPA: dual!fortune!olson@BERKELEY ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!hou2h!hhs From: hou2h!hhs (H.SHARP) Subject: Re: Shuttle on CNN Date: 28 Jun 85 19:23:03 GMT Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Holmdel NJ From what I understand, CNN shows continuous (or almost continuous) coverage of shuttle missions. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mgnetp!mgweed!prg From: mgweed!prg (Phil Gunsul) Subject: STS schedule Date: 26 Jun 85 22:20:22 GMT Organization: AT&T Consumer Products - Montgomery Illinois [..BUG!!] On one of the earlier shuttle flights, someone posted a schedule of televised events that would appear on one of the satellites. I believe that schedule was obtained from a 'bulletin board'. Could someone out there PLEASE post the telephone number of the bulletin board or tell me where I can obtain a schedule of the next flight??? I watched as much of the transmissions as possible on Satcom F1R, transponder 18, but as you can imagine, it took an tremendous amount of watching not having a schedule to follow. Someone please help, the imprint of the World map with little sine waves is still imprinted on my eyeballs!! Phil Gunsul -- ATTIS (312) 859-4485 -- Montgomery Works ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Date: 28 Jun 85 20:31:15 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill The film from the IMAX shuttle trips debuted at the Smithsonian last Friday. It is called ''The Dream is Alive,'' is 37 minutes long, and is being shown there 10 times daily. It is a must see. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #200 ******************* 02-Jul-85 0350 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #201 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 201 Today's Topics: Discovery Returns to KSC -- Challenger to Pad Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Re: Shoot the Moon Re: Shuttle Computers and STS power consumption A physics/space problem beyond my abilities Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Antigravity References ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Discovery Returns to KSC -- Challenger to Pad Date: 29 Jun 85 15:00:39 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill The Discovery returned atop a 747 Friday to KSC, where it will be prepared for its next flight. Challenger is to be moved to pad 39A today for its 12 July launch. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!cbosgd!clyde!watmath!water!watcgl!mwherman From: watcgl!mwherman (Michael W. Herman) Subject: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Date: 29 Jun 85 13:34:17 GMT Organization: Computer Graphics Laboratory, U of Waterloo, Ontario > By the way, cine freaks > should find their way up into the projection room, looking at the > projector close up is obligatory. If you are ever in St. Paul, MN, their IMAX projector is in a glass room that you walk by on the way into the theatre. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!utzoo!henry From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Shoot the Moon Date: 29 Jun 85 23:05:13 GMT Organization: U of Toronto Zoology > Are there not enough protons in the solar wind to provide hydrogen? The solar wind is mostly protons. Unfortunately, it is far, far too thin to be of any use. The necessary collecting areas are immense. -- "Maturity means doing what's right, not just what's easy." Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!tektronix!hplabs!ames!aurora!al From: aurora!al (Al Globus) Subject: Re: Shuttle Computers and STS power consumption Date: 27 Jun 85 01:03:39 GMT Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA > > A recent posting about shuttle cooling reminded me of an > article I ran across in an old (1980) IBM document. The article > described the onboard computers as System/4Pi model AP-101 processors. > The AP-101 appears to be a 3 KIP machine with an intensely ugly > architecture. Main memory was described as 104KW (36 bit) of core > (really core!) with 400 ns access time. What startled me were the > physical characteristics. Each of the five "processors" appears to > consist of two boxes. The boxes weigh 58.9 pounds and draw 350 > Watts!!!!! This would imply a system total of almost 600 pounds and > 3500 Watts. Did they actually use this refugee from the Smithsonian > on the Shuttle? I'm almost positive the answer is yes, they do and will continue to do so for the forseeable future. If it's not that particular model, it is a close relative. Sickening isn't it? Software note: software development for launch is supposedly very close to the critical path and definitely must see major improvements to support 24 launches a year. More horrors: there are some 250 microprocessors on the shuttle with a variety of incompatable languages, operating systems, and development systems between them. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!gymble!lll-crg!dual!qantel!vlsvax1!zehntel!hplabs!ames!aurora!al From: aurora!al (Al Globus) Subject: A physics/space problem beyond my abilities Date: 21 Jun 85 00:59:05 GMT Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA How massive must a spacecraft be such that, when deorbited from low Earth orbit (say 300 miles), the craft will impact the Earth with an explosive power equivalent to the Hiroshima bomb? Express the answer in tons. The reason I want the answer is that, if Star Wars battle stations are hardened by adding lots of mass, at what point are the battle stations as dangerous as ICBMs? Thanx in advance. I'll summarize for the net. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 85 10:15 PDT From: LShilkoff.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: LShilkoff.es@Xerox.ARPA >One of the problems that they had filming the movie was the gyroscopic >effect of the film reels in the camera. >One simple way to fix that is to have the film reels turn in oppisite >directions. This way the gyroscopic effect is almost cancelled. That won't correct the problem. Since an empty reel is filling from a full one, the speed of rotation is constantly changing on both reels. The effect would technically be cancelled only at the moment the film is halfway through (equal reel rotation rates). Larry LShilkoff.es@xerox.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 85 21:14:51 PDT From: Richard K. Jennings To: space@mit-mc Subject: Antigravity References The thought that the effects observed my Maurice Allais in the paper I referenced and Keith Lofstrom commented about might indeed be caused by the moon did cross my mind as well. No longer having access to a good technical library (the original text I used resides at the AFIT Library at WPFAFB OH -- anybody at AFIT listening?) I am not sure I can reconstruct my arguments. As I recall the observed effect changed its period, and went away during eclipses. I heartily support Keiths call for some astronomer/astrodynamicist to get to the bottom of it (and 12 other abnormalities he cites as well!) In my view, the most difficult evidence to understand is that presented in the Saxl paper. Rich. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #201 ******************* 03-Jul-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #202 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 202 Today's Topics: Re: shuttle computers Re: IMAX and gyroscopic effects Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights (in California) Job in space? Challenger to Pad cancel <952@hou2h.UUCP> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!tektronix!hplabs!pesnta!pertec!kontron!steve From: kontron!steve (Steve McIntosh) Subject: Re: shuttle computers Date: 28 Jun 85 21:02:05 GMT Organization: Kontron Electronics, Irvine, CA > From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS > ... For the weight cost of those things, they could have 20 > real computers... The real cost of the computers is not the weight - they have been stripping the weight at lift off by such things as NOT painting the external fuel tank white. Leaving it with just a "primer" coat saved thousands of pounds. The cost of the computers is power - both to run them and for cooling. (By the way, just to annoy computer "purists" - I understand that there are quite a few 6502's on the shuttle running forth to do menial tasks like opening the bay doors. At least thats what one Rockwell employee who worked on the shuttle told me ) *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jul 85 09:09:23 PDT (Tuesday) From: Ayers.PA@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: IMAX and gyroscopic effects To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA One of the most interesting items in the original Nimbus weather satellite was RCA's design of a tape recorder that could record pictures and later replay them to ground stations, all the while exhibiting zero (or almost zero) angular momentum. [It wouldn't do for the tape recorder to cause the satellite to rotate.) ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!sun!plx!adams From: plx!adams (Robert Adams) Subject: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights (in California) Date: 2 Jul 85 00:15:05 GMT Organization: Plexus Computers; San Jose, CA I recently heard that the IMAX "The Dream Is Alive" is also being shown in the San Francisco bay area at Great America. Now you can ride the roller coasters and then go see the greatest roller coaster ride. ..!{decvax,ucbvax}!sun!plx!adams -- Robert Adams ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!brl-tgr!wmartin From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: Job in space? Date: 2 Jul 85 20:03:53 GMT Organization: USAMC ALMSA The latest activity bulletin just came across my desk, and it contains, as is usual, a long list of government job openings at various sites. One of these might be of interest to "Space" readers: Depty Manager, Space Station Office, NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA. Ann. No. LSES-1406-22. Closing date: 10 July 85. Contact: Robert A. Myers, 804-865-3278. Of course, the job is an ordinary earthbound desk job, shuffling papers or whatever, but I think you could get some interesting travel in it if you can convincingly state that you have to visit the work site... Will ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!spuxll!abnji!u1100a!pyuxww!gamma!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Challenger to Pad Date: 30 Jun 85 16:18:03 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill The space shuttle Challenger was moved to pad 39A yesterday in preparation for lift off on 12 July. Launch time is scheduled for 1630 EDT with landing at EAFB seven days later. On Tuesday, its seven member crew, headed by shuttle veteran Gordon Fullerton, will take part in a mock countdown and launch. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!hou2h!hhs From: hou2h!hhs Subject: cancel <952@hou2h.UUCP> Date: 1 Jul 85 21:45:23 GMT Control: cancel <952@hou2h.UUCP> Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Holmdel NJ ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #202 ******************* 04-Jul-85 0350 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #203 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 203 Today's Topics: Bright Galaxies Orbital sex Shuttle launches gyroscopic reels heard on "soft news" show last night... Mock Countdown Successful Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Re: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Jul 85 12:48:22 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Bright Galaxies To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A Just a random thought for any theoretical astronomers out there... If there are indeed large clouds of Hydrogen in intergalactic space, then the collision of these with a galaxy should start a period of rapid star formation. This could be the explanation for a few galaxies that seem to have recently formed large numbers of stars. Idea triggered by information in "Why Do Galaxies Exist", pp978-980, Science 5/24/85. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jul 85 13:39:11 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Orbital sex To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A There have often been discussions on this weighty matter when mixed groups of L5 members congregate. It is certainly of some concern, since we hope to live, work AND play in space. Several solutions have been suggested. 1) Do it in the sleeping bag. The elasticity should give sufficient restraint. 2) For the acrobatic types, lock ankles. Of course the need for concentration may detract from the experience. 3) For those of the wild and wooly persuasion, free flight with elastic ankle tethers seems to get high marks from both sexes. If any experimentation should be required, I'm certain we can find a sufficient test population (a few thousand of us should be sufficient) to verify the possibilities of zero g. I wonder if we should title the resulting report "Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Zero Gee and Were Afraid to Ask", or maybe "The Kama Spacesuitra"? PS: One really has to wonder who was the first. I say WAS because I find it extremely difficult to believe it hasn't been tried yet. After all, we're now sending up men and women who went to college in the SIXTIES... (hmmm... group gropes in space?) I guess we'll find out when we read "The Time Life History of Manned Space Flight, 1960-2030". ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!rochester!emil From: rochester!emil Subject: Shuttle launches Date: 3 Jul 85 14:29:18 GMT Sender: rochester!emil Organization: U. of Rochester, CS Dept. From: emil I plan on going to Florida this winter and would appreciate any information on shuttle launches between Dec 26-Jan 8. Also any help on how to go about seeing it (viewing stand/road/swamp) would be greatlt appreciated. We only archive the last two weeks here, so please no flames. Emil Rainero UUCP: (..!{allegra, decvax, seismo}!rochester!emil) ARPA: emil@rochester.arpa USmail: Emil Rainero, Dept. of Comp. Sci., U. of Rochester, NY 14627. Phone: Office: (716) 275-5365 Home: (716) 473-1150 ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jul 1985 10:42-PDT From: king@Kestrel.ARPA Subject: gyroscopic reels To: space@mc As the fullness of a reel increases its moment increases and its angular velocity decreases. We have two degrees of freedom: hub diameter and moment of an empty reel. It seems likely to me that e can make any variations in the angular momentum third-order. I'll do the math when I'm less busy... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 85 15:32:11 pdt From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) To: info-cobol@mit-mc.ARPA, space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: heard on "soft news" show last night... Cc: The post-Nightline soft news show had a piece on UFOs last night. Gov't plot to suppress findings, etc. Reports of UFO found in 1947 in NM desert at Air Force Base. Highly scientific stuff... Anyway, just before I flipped it off, the commentator switched to discussion of our own planetary program. The scene cut to a control room, where, we were told, "the nation's finest minds listen to Voyager and Mariner by radio. This (to a high-pitched whine that sounded about 2 KHz to my ears) is the actual sound of Voyager just outside Venus..." Oh, wey.... Rick. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Mock Countdown Successful Date: 3 Jul 85 00:21:54 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill The crew of the Challenger today successfully completed a mock countdown and simulated liftoff in preparation for the 12 July launch. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!pesnta!pertec!peregrine!mike From: peregrine!mike (Mike Wexler) Subject: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Date: 2 Jul 85 20:11:49 GMT Organization: Peregrine Systems, Irvine, Ca > > > One of the problems that they had filming the movie was the gyroscopic > > effect of the film reels in the camera. Seems it was difficult to move the > > camera out of the plane of rotation. Note that the camera can eat 1000 feet > > of film in a matter of 3 minutes. > > -- > > Louis A. Mamakos WA3YMH University of Maryland, Computer Science Center > > One simple way to fix that is to have the film reels turn in oppisite > directions. This way the gyroscopic effect is almost cancelled. > > Since they are going to make a newer camera, I don't see much difficulty > in modifying the take up reel so that it spins backwards... > > Peter Barada > {ihnp4!inmet|{harvard|cca}!ima}!pbear!peterb How about digital recording of the picture. There would be no gyroscopic effect at all. This may not be feasible yet. How about immediate transmission of a digitized signal. Maybe someone else out there can come up with a clever non-mechanical method that could be used. Always a dreamer, Mike Wexler -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Wexler(trwrb!pertec!peregrine!mike) | Send all flames to: 15530 Rockfield, Building C | trwrb!pertec!peregrine!nobody Irvine, Ca 92718 | They will then be given the (714)855-3923 | consideration they are due. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!pesnta!amd!intelca!cem From: intelca!cem (Chuck McManis) Subject: Re: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Date: 1 Jul 85 21:11:32 GMT Organization: Intel, Santa Clara, Ca. > While I am at it, does anyone know anywhere else that IMAX films are being > shown? There is also an IMAX theater at Marriots Great America in Santa Clara (playing Hail Columbia) and one OMNIMAX (sometimes called the magic golf ball) outside Ceasar's Palace in Las Vegas, alternating between Behold Hawaii and Hail Columbia. --Chuck -- "Unix, the Teco of Operating Systems." - - - D I S C L A I M E R - - - {ihnp4,fortune}!dual\ All opinions expressed herein are my {qantel,idi}-> !intelca!cem own and not those of my employer, my {ucbvax,hao}!hplabs/ friends, or my avocado plant. :-} ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!pesnta!pertec!kontron!steve From: kontron!steve (Steve McIntosh) Subject: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Date: 1 Jul 85 15:46:54 GMT Organization: Kontron Electronics, Irvine, CA > Aerospace museum in the IMAX theatre. The films really have to be seen to be > believed. What I would like to know is if any more recent film has been produced > than "Hail Columbia". I remember seeing the IMAX cameras on board the Shuttles > from news shorts, and I hope to see some results from that while I am there. > While I am at it, does anyone know anywhere else that IMAX films are being > shown? The film produced with the shuttle footage is called "The Dream is Alive" and is being shown at the Smithsonian and at the Mitsubishi IMAX theatre at the Los Angeles Museum of Science and Industry. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #203 ******************* 05-Jul-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #204 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 204 Today's Topics: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Re: Challenger to Pad ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Jul 1985 12:49 PDT (Thu) Sender: TLI@ECLB From: Tony Li To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-to: Tli@Usc-Eclb Subject: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Home: 2632 Ellendale Pl. Apt. 314, Los Angeles, Ca. 90007 (213) 737-8168 There's also an Imax theatre here in LA, just north of the Colliseum. Cheers, Tony ;-) ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mgnetp!ltuxa!ttrdc!jhl From: ttrdc!jhl (Jonathon Luers) Subject: Re: Challenger to Pad Date: 3 Jul 85 18:51:00 GMT Organization: AT&T Teletype Corp., Skokie, IL I'm going to be vacationing in the Los Angeles area the week of July 14-20, and since the shuttle is supposed to be landing at Edwards Air Force Base about the 19th, I'm wondering if anyone out there can tell me what kind of access, if any, is available to the general public. adThanksvance Jon Luers AT&T, Computer Systems Division ihnp4!ttrdc!jhl ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #204 ******************* 06-Jul-85 0351 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #205 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 205 Today's Topics: Space Shuttle Heat Protection Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Solar Wind Power Giotto Launched NASA Prediction Bulletins for Satellites Re: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Re: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights NASA Bulletin Board ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 JUN 1985 21:50:00 GMT To: From: <#d2f%ddathd21.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> (#D2F) Subject: Space Shuttle Heat Protection Ralf Eberhardt Phone: 0049-6151-16-3939 Technische Hochschule Darmstadt (Working hours, only) Hochschulrechenzentrum/Beratung AB Petersenstrasse 30 Node name of our Site: DDATHD21 6100 Darmstadt My Userid: #D2F WEST GERMANY As far as I know, there were problems with the heat protecting tiles of space shuttle during the first flights. Tiles were lost and the heat protection shield of the shuttle damaged. I am added to this mailing only recently, so I don't know if this subject has already been discussed. Since there was nothing to hear about this problem lately, I suppose it has been solved. Can anybody tell me how ? --- Ralf Eberhardt ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!Glacier!Shasta!brain From: brain@Shasta.ARPA Subject: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Date: 4 Jul 85 21:56:09 GMT Organization: Stanford University > > > One of the problems that they had filming the movie was the gyroscopic > > effect of the film reels in the camera. > > One simple way to fix that is to have the film reels turn in oppisite > directions. This way the gyroscopic effect is almost cancelled. > > Peter Barada > {ihnp4!inmet|{harvard|cca}!ima}!pbear!peterb Since most of the spinning mass is in the film material itself, and since that mass is initially all on the supply reel, and eventually all on the take-up reel, if you have counter-rotating reels, the camera will initially behave like a gyro spinning in one direction, slowing down, and changing its direction of spin. The problem of cancelling out the gyroscopic effects in that type of system is fascinating!! ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jul 85 10:43:52 EDT From: DIETZ@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: Solar Wind Power To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA I was wondering if the solar wind might make a better power source than sunlight, in space. At first glance this seems silly, since the sun emits most of its energy as light. However, it may be possible to extract energy from the solar wind using much less massive machines. (Question for astrophysicists: what fraction of the sun's energy goes into the solar wind, and how fast does the wind blow?) The idea is to use magnetohydrodynamic techniques and avoid the need for a material collector. The solar wind is a highly conductive plasma moving at high velocity (100's of km/sec, I think). If it goes though a transverse magnetic field a current is induced perpendicular to both. All one needs to collect this current are two electrodes, one emitting electrons, the other either collecting electrons or emitting positive ions. A wire connecting the electrodes completes the circuit. We can generate a magnetic field with a large diameter superconducting loop at the center of the device. The other parts of the collector are essentially one dimensional, and very light. For example, if the wire connecting the electrodes is a 10 km long aluminum cable with a cross section of 10 cm^2, it has a mass of 27 tonnes and a resistance of .28 ohms. On a grander scale, it may be possible to use the interaction of the solar wind with the Earth's magnetic field, potentially allowing us to use the power of the solar wind falling on the entire magnetosphere. I don't remember how far out the Earth's magnetic field goes, assuming 40,000 km from the Earth's center, and assuming the solar wind has 10^-5 times the power of sunlight, that's about 70 terawatts. Superconducting cables would be necessary for these distances, perhaps in geosynchronous orbit. ------- ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!mcnc!akgua!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Giotto Launched Date: 3 Jul 85 00:21:11 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill The ESA today successfully launched its Giotto space probe atop an Ariane 1 booster. The probe, Europe's first inter- planetary spacecraft, is in a parking orbit, from which it will deploy after four orbits onto its journey to rendezvous with Halley's comet in March, 1986. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jul 85 13:43:34 EDT From: Michael_D'Alessandro%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: NASA Prediction Bulletins for Satellites My friend and I are going to start observing satellites, using Sat Trak International's satellite tracking software that runs on various micros. In order to use this software, you must obtain satellite orbital information from NASA, in the form of NASA Prediction Bulletins. NASA currently sends these bulletins out via US Mail. I would like to know if the information contained in the bulletins can be obtained from a public BBS, a node on the net, or via Mag tape or floppies. If the information is not available in these forms currently, is there anyway that it could be made available to the public in any of these forms? It would be great if the info was available on line somewhere. Michael D'Alessandro <>: MPD%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-Multics.ARPA <>: ...ihnp4!ucbvax!MPD%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-Multics.ARPA ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!cvl!umd5!don From: umd5!don Subject: Re: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Date: 5 Jul 85 15:31:23 GMT Organization: U of Md, CSC, College Park, Md >> >>> One of the problems that they had filming the movie was the gyroscopic >>> effect of the film reels in the camera. >> >> One simple way to fix that is to have the film reels turn in oppisite >> directions. This way the gyroscopic effect is almost cancelled. >> -- Peter Barada > > Since most of the spinning mass is in the film material itself ... > ... if you have counter-rotating reels, the camera will initially > behave like a gyro spinning in one direction, slowing down, and changing > its direction of spin. > *** REPLACE THIS film-reel WITH a constant rotational momentum *** All one would need (unless my Physics is more than rusty and is just plain rotten) is a means of having an almost constant rotational momentum for the opposite spinning reels of film. The mechanism would work like the classic spinning ice-skater to change the momentum as the amount of film changes on the reel... a couple of weights the can be moved inversely to the amount of film on the reel... the weights would be attached to a spinning rod that is in turn attached to the reel. Voila! (the added mass might even make the camera work more smoothly) (on the other hand, the film is only so strong --- SNAP!) Anybody got some other random thoughts on the matter ? (pun intentional) -- --==---==---==-- ___________ _____ ---- _____ \ //---- IDIC ----- _\______//_ ---- ---------- ARPA: don@umd5.ARPA BITNET: don%umd5@umd2 SPOKEN: Chris Sylvain UUCP: {seismo,rlgvax,allegra,brl-bmd,nrl-css}!umcp-cs!cvl!umd5!don ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jul 85 18:55:35 pdt From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Re: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Cc: All you really need to solve the problem is two motor-driven counter-rotating reels, one mounted adjacent to each of the film reels. Let's call these the counter-reels. They have some (constant) mass, so you vary their angular momentum by varying their angular velocities appropriately. This can be done either by computation base on the amount of time the camera has been operating, or can be controlled by simply measuring the net angular momentum of the system and adjusting velocities appropriately. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!ttidca!ttidcb!shuster From: ttidcb!shuster (Cy Shuster) Subject: NASA Bulletin Board Date: 5 Jul 85 19:34:32 GMT Reply-To: shuster@ttidcb.UUCP (Cy Shuster) Organization: TTI, Santa Monica, CA. Followup To: Phil Gunsul Organization: Transaction Technology, Inc. (CitiCorp), Santa Monica ...... In article <18249@mgweed.UUCP> prg@mgweed.UUCP (Phil Gunsul) writes: >On one of the earlier shuttle flights, someone posted a schedule >of televised events that would appear on one of the satellites. >I believe that schedule was obtained from a 'bulletin board'. >Could someone out there PLEASE post the telephone number of the >bulletin board or tell me where I can obtain a schedule of >the next flight??? The July, 1985 issue of "Online Today" (published by CompuServe) lists a NASA Get Away Special (GAS) Bulletin Board at (301) 344-9156, containing "GAS Net conferences and a daily newsletter from the Kennedy Space Center public affairs office". According to the article, anyone can access the board, but only GAS participants can post entries. I haven't gotten thru yet. ........ Cy Shuster ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #205 ******************* 07-Jul-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #206 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 206 Today's Topics: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Film reel hack Re: NASA Bulletin Board Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Shuttle Arm SPACE Digest V5 #203 Gyroscopic reels ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!greipa!pesnta!phri!timeinc!vax135!petsd!peora!jer From: peora!jer (J. Eric Roskos) Subject: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Date: 1 Jul 85 21:42:32 GMT Organization: Perkin-Elmer SDC, Orlando, Fl. > While I am at it, does anyone know anywhere else that IMAX films are being > shown? Here, of course, at the Kennedy space center... -- Shyy-Anzr: J. Eric Roskos UUCP: ..!{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!vax135!petsd!peora!jer US Mail: MS 795; Perkin-Elmer SDC; 2486 Sand Lake Road, Orlando, FL 32809-7642 ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jul 85 17:14 PDT From: Fischer.pa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Film reel hack To: space@mit-mc.arpa How about just putting a parallel set of reels of same size and capacity, loaded with uncoated film stock and running in the opposite direction? Each set of reels then cancels its angular momentum equally through the whole run of film. Cheap hack, depends whether you can mount another set of reels close to the originals. (ron) ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!cvl!umd5!don From: umd5!don Subject: Re: NASA Bulletin Board Date: 6 Jul 85 16:42:01 GMT Organization: U of Md, CSC, College Park, Md > Followup To: Phil Gunsul > Organization: Transaction Technology, Inc. (CitiCorp), Santa Monica > In article <18249@mgweed.UUCP> prg@mgweed.UUCP (Phil Gunsul) writes: > > The July, 1985 issue of "Online Today" (published by CompuServe) lists > a NASA Get Away Special (GAS) Bulletin Board at (301) 344-9156, > containing "GAS Net conferences and a daily newsletter from the > Kennedy Space Center public affairs office". According to the article, > anyone can access the board, but only GAS participants can post > entries. I haven't gotten thru yet. > > ........ Cy Shuster *** RE THINE IT YOU MESS *** I just got through as of 12:30PM July 6. The Bbd is 300 baud and runs on a North-Star (tm). Happy Hacking! -- --==---==---==-- ___________ _____ ---- _____ \ //---- IDIC ----- _\______//_ ---- ---------- ARPA: don@umd5.ARPA BITNET: don%umd5@umd2 SPOKEN: Chris Sylvain UUCP: {seismo,rlgvax,allegra,brl-bmd,nrl-css}!umcp-cs!cvl!umd5!don ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!hound!gray From: hound!gray (B.GRAY) Subject: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Date: 5 Jul 85 14:01:34 GMT Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Holmdel NJ "The Dream Is Alive" is also being shown at the "Naturemax" theater in the American Museum of Natural History in New York City. The AMNH also invites shuttle astronauts to give lectures in the theater every few months, I believe (usually with home movies from their flights). ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!cbosgd!clyde!watmath!water!watnot!kcollinsthom From: watnot!kcollinsthom (Kevyn C.-Thompson) Subject: Shuttle Arm Date: 5 Jul 85 15:54:06 GMT Organization: U of Waterloo, Ontario Does anyone out there know how the shuttle arm works? I am thinking specifically of the joint motions and any problems with oscillation if the arm is somewhat flexible. How accurately can the end of the arm be manipulated? Are there any sort of correction mechanisms if such inaccuracy does exist? Any information would be much appreciated. Thanks. { Kevyn Collins-Thompson University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ont., Canada. } ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1985 02:09 EDT From: MINSKY%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Cc: SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: SPACE Digest V5 #203 Gyroscopic reels The obvious solution to the tape problem is simply to use a loop of fan-folded tape. It will not change its moment of inertia at all and will save on space and reel. Probably too obvious to have been thought of. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #206 ******************* 08-Jul-85 0351 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #207 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 207 Today's Topics: re: solar wind as power source Re: Shoot the Moon Giotto Headed for Halleys DD RE: Shuttle landings at Edwards AFB IMAX Terminate subscription ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sunday, 7 Jul 1985 10:06:52-PDT From: redford%avoid.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford) To: space@mc, jlr%avoid.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: solar wind as power source Dietz of Rutgers suggests using the solar wind as a power source, since it could be potentially be gathered with much lighter and simpler collectors than sunlight could. Interesting idea! My Encyclopedia Brittanica says that the solar wind consists of protons and electrons travelling at 300 to 700 km/s. The protons have energies of about 1000 eV (the electrons of 10 eV), and densities of one particle per cm^3. The flux density is 10^8 to 10^9 particles per cm^2 per second. All of these numbers vary wildly with solar activity. Say there are 10^8 protons/cm^2/s with energies of x 10^3 eV/proton and there are x 1.6 x 10^-19 joules/eV and x 10^4 cm^2 / m^2 --------------- then the power flux is 0.16 mW / m^2 This is ten million times less than the power flux of sunlight (1600 W / m^2). This doesn't sound good. Our collector will have to be extraordinarily light compared to solar cells to make up for a 10^7 difference in power flux. In fact, if solar cells are 10% efficient, and our collector were 100% efficient, our collector would have to be a million times lighter per unit area in order to get the same power per unit mass of collector. However, the collecting electrodes can be just a fine mesh of wires, so it might be possible. One other way to improve the system might be to exploit the shock wave in the solar wind produced by the earth's magnetic field. The earth's field produces a teardrop shaped bubble in the solar wind, with the tail of the teardrop pointing away from the sun. As protons slam into the field, many get absorbed into the earth's Van Allen belts, but some must flow around the teardrop. The particle density at the boundary of the teardrop is probably a lot higher than normal, so that's the place to put our collector. It could be sited in a sun-facing polar orbit so that it is always moving around the circumference of the teardrop. This would be a nasty place to work because of the radiation levels. The collector could probably not be assembled by people, and even rad-hard electronics would have trouble. I don't think, by the way, that the Van Allen belts themselves could be used as a power source. The particles in them are very energetic, but are moving in all directions. Getting power from them would be like getting power from the thermal energy of the atoms in a hot gas; you violate the second law of thermodynamics. However, the particles are constrained by the earth's field, so their velocities might not be completely isotropic. Any anisotropy could theoretically be exploited to produce power. One last thought. In the early sixties, several nuclear tests were conducted in the ionosphere. They produced belts of charged particles which are still perturbing the magnetosphere twenty years later. Suppose that we put our MHD collector around such an explosion. Some fraction of the bomb's energy could be collected and beamed down to earth as microwaves. A continuous series of small explosions could keep the charge reservoir pumped up. We could use the entire earth's field as the magnetic bottle for a fusion reactor! The reactor would sit out in geosynchronous orbit, so there'd be little direct danger from radiation. It would be a small extra sun in the sky. We'd get lots of pretty aurora, too. Of course, this would violate certain arms control treaties, as well as potentially damaging Earth's first line of defense against cosmic radiation, but hey, anything for a few terajoules. John Redford DEC-Hudson ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!jec From: iuvax!jec Subject: Re: Shoot the Moon Date: 4 Jul 85 20:43:00 GMT Seems to me that it would be a shame to waste all that impact energy and also be made to sift through the lunar soil for the materials. I would think it would be better to go with a two stage trip to the moon. First make an accelerator to put the materials in Earth orbit and then build a collector to gather it up. Every once in a while you could send a large shipment to the moon saving on delivery vehicles and probably fuel. Not to mention you could get away with a much cheap accelerator. Not cheap, but cheaper. James E. Conley Usenet: {ihnp4,pur-ee,purdue}!iuvax!jec I.U. Dept. of Linguistics Phone: (812) 335-6458 401 Lindley Hall (812) 332-3514 Bloomington, IN. 47405 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Giotto Headed for Halleys Date: 5 Jul 85 03:57:04 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill Onboard motors on the spaceprobe Giotto successfully moved the craft from its transfer orbit to its planned trajectory that will take it to within 310 miles of Halleys comet next March. ------------------------------ From: crash!bryan@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Sun, 7 Jul 85 10:04:23 PDT To: space@mit- Subject: DD Cc: space@mit-mc There is an IMAX projector at the Reuben H. Fleet SPACE Theater in San Diego. "The Dream is Alive" is due next month. Or so I'm told. crash!bryan@ucsd {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax}!crash!bryan ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jul 1985 13:46 PST From: Art Berggreen Subject: RE: Shuttle landings at Edwards AFB To: space@mit-mc Reply-To: ART@ACC Anyone from out-of-town thinging about watching a shuttle landing at Edwards AFB during the summer should be prepared for the fact that Rodger's Dry Lake is in the desert. Summer temperatures can get fairly high. Be sure to have plenty of your favorite liquid beverage. ------ ------------------------------ From: crash!bryan@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Sun, 7 Jul 85 15:37:28 PDT To: space@mit-mc Subject: IMAX There is an IMAX projector at the Reuben H. Fleet Space Theater in San Diego. They are not currently showing "...Dream..." yet but plan on getting it soon. Bryan R. Walker crash!bryan@ucsd {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax}!crash!bryan ------------------------------ Date: Mon 8 Jul 85 00:00:02-PDT From: Bill Park Subject: Terminate subscription To: SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: Park@SRI-AI.ARPA Please take me off the mailing list for the SPACE Digest, since I can read it on an SRI bulletin board. Thanks. Bill Park@SRI-AI ------- ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #207 ******************* 09-Jul-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #208 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 208 Today's Topics: Re: Shhot the Moon Re: solar wind power Re: IMAX in Shuttles Rotational Inertia Shuttle Comps etc ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Jul 85 12:06:30 EDT From: DIETZ@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: Re: Shhot the Moon To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA Someone suggested sending the material to Earth orbit, then down to the moon. the problem with this idea is that you have to stop the payloads in oribt somehow: either by impact with a very heavy/thick backstop, or by active techniques (retrorockets?) that make the projectiles expensive. Hitting the moon seems much simpler. A point I should also have made clear: the launcher will have to swivel, since the moon is not geostationary. One might expect to launch perhaps 30% of the time. Any orbital mechanicians want to comment? ------- ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 85 12:20:32 EDT From: DIETZ@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: Re: solar wind power To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA Looking in the encyclopedia britanica, I get a power level of from .1 to 1 milliwatt per meter^2 (1 to 10 protons per cm^3 at ~500 km/sec), or roughly 10^-7 to 10^-6 x the intensity of sunlight. Generating magnetic fields over sufficiently large areas to make this practical seems unlikely, unless the Earth's field is used. The Earth's field may be used as follows: because the solar wind is so highly conductive, it effectively excludes the earth's magnetic field. What happens is the boundary layer of the plasma has a current ciculating so as to neutralize the field at larger distances. We can tap this current by stretching a cable from one side of the field to the other behind the earth. Current is collected at the ends through some sort of plasma and/or electron guns (no extensive wire mesh is needed). Even at 10^-7 x sunlight intensity this is still ~5 terawatts. This scheme may significantly modify the earth's magnetosphere. If so, pulsed operation may dump the Van Allen belts, reducing radiation hazards in intermediate orbits. ------- ------------------------------ To: SPACE@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Re: IMAX in Shuttles Date: 08 Jul 85 13:29:04 EDT (Mon) From: Walt Lazear This may be terribly naive, but why not have a dummy pair of reels acting in mirror image to compensate for the changing gyroscopic effect of shifting film from one reel to another. It's extra weight and drive mechanism, but should be easy to replicate the *real* reels. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 85 14:05:09 EDT From: BIESEL@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: Rotational Inertia To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: biesel@RUTGERS.ARPA I've been watching the comments concerning ways to overcome the gyroscopic inertia problem with the OMNIMAX cameras with growing disbelief. The 'fix' seems to consist of a second counterrotating mass whose angular momentum is matched by various means to that of the filmreel. It won't work, of course. Adding a second rotating mass, counterrotating, at right angles, or whatever will simply *ADD* to the problem by creating more angular momentum. You might as well try to 'cancel' some mass by adding some mass in another place; it just doesn't work that way. ------- ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 1985 at 1439-EDT Subject: Shuttle Comps etc From: jim at TYCHO.ARPA (James B. Houser) To: space at mit-mc Hi Thanx for the numerous replies on my question about the STS computers. Those beasties are really grotesque!! A number of people mentioned rumors of a plan to upgrade the system but no concrete pointer emerged from the discussion. Any words from NASA types out there? There were also a lot of interesting responses to the "money to burn" interstellar probe thought experiment. The general consensus seemed to be that it could not be done given the design constraints or if so just barely. Most people proposed a laser driven light sail propulsion system though several other ideas were suggested too. What would happen if we applied these same ideas to designing a fast and simple probe to Pluto/Charon? Any thoughts? Jim Houser (jim@tycho) ------- ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #208 ******************* 10-Jul-85 0351 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #209 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 209 Today's Topics: Magnetically Levitated Kinetic Energy Store Use Caution if purchasing an Astroscan Shuttle Movies SPACE Digest V5 #208 -- angular momentum NASA-ASEE Seminar Series Re: Space Shuttle Heat Protection Re: Shuttle Movies general space information Astronaut Selection Film Review: The Dream is Alive ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Jul 85 07:55:54 EDT From: DIETZ@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: Magnetically Levitated Kinetic Energy Store To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA, arms-d@MIT-MC.ARPA I got some details from Argonne on that megnetically levitated loop kinetic energy storage system. The baseline system has a radius of 1 km, a velocity of 7 km/sec and a stored energy of 7000 megawatt hours (about 5 kilotons). The system uses a leviated superconducting coil; there are severe cooling constraints. An attractive maglev system using radially stable vertically unstable attractive levitation is also mentioned. It has a lower power density but seems more tractable, since the ring can be at room temperature. Aside from Lofstrom Loops, this technology seems directly applicable to SDI. Depending on your power extraction/conditioning equipment, one could extract energy from the ring very quickly. Dumping in 300 seconds gives a power of some 80 gigawatts -- that will pump a BIG laser. It might also be useful for laser powered surface-to-orbit rockets. The loop can also containing ring segments, which can be accelerated like particles in a synchrotron. Since the velocity would be added to these pieces gradually high efficiencies (95%?) should be possible, making the system (or a variant using repulsive maglev) a candidate for use as a mass driver. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!decwrl!sun!amdahl!canopus From: amdahl!canopus (Alpha Carinae) Subject: Use Caution if purchasing an Astroscan Date: 8 Jul 85 16:54:11 GMT Organization: RA: 6h 22m 30s; Dec: -52d 36m Recently, a good friend of mine who owns an optical coating business replaced, or attempted to replace, the aluminum coating on the Edmund Astroscan RFT. It turns out that the parabolic curve on the reflective surface was generated NOT by parabolizing the mirror, but rather by the aluminizing process itself. Therefore, if you strip the coating you have also stripped the figure! While aluminized and overcoated mirrors should last a relatively long time (up to 10 years?), potential buyers of an Astroscan may wish to take this bit of info into account before making their purchase. I haven't checked with Edmund Scientific to see if they will "refigure" Astroscans... but they must be able to. Anyone know for sure? -- Frank Dibbell (408-746-6493) ...!{ihnp4,cbosgd,sun}!amdahl!canopus Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA [This is the obligatory disclaimer..] - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "I call it 'tranya'. I hope you relish it as much as I." ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 85 11:11:53 EDT (Tuesday) From: Lyons.HENR@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Shuttle Movies To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: Lyons.HENR@Xerox.ARPA A movie presumeably made from the IMAX pictures is now showing at the Rochester Planetarium entitled, "The Space Shuttle An American Adventure." It shows a shuttle launch closeup, as well as training pictures, pictures of the earth from the shuttle, and eva operations with the remote arm in repairing solar max. The film was apparantly made for showing on the ceilings of planetariums throughout the country. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1985 14:17 EDT From: MINSKY%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Cc: SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: SPACE Digest V5 #208 -- angular momentum Adding a counter-rotating mass will indeed cancel the changes of angular momentum of the spacecraft. The added mass will, of course, increase the ship's moment of intertia and also its mass. However, the additional mass can be made arbitrarily small by using a small mass out on a long moment-arm. Here is a cute solution which adds no mass to speak of: use two identical film and take-up reels, each of half the mass, running in opposite directions, and expose frames alternately, or something like that. Then everything will cancel out perfectly. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!dual!fortune!nsc!ames!eugene From: ames!eugene (Eugene Miya) Subject: NASA-ASEE Seminar Series Date: 8 Jul 85 17:56:26 GMT Organization: NASA-Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA 22nd annual Stanford-NASA ASEE seminar series Thursdays, 8 PM Terman Aud. 7/11 - Ilan Kroo: Applied Prehistoric Aerdynamics: Could Pterosaurs Really Fly? 7/18 - Elliott Levinthal: SIMA: A Stanford Experiment in Education and Research in Manufacturing Science 7/25 - Robert Helliwell: Stanford in Anartica, or How to Keep Warm with Long Radio Waves 8/1 - John Howe: Space Station Taxi: The Aero-Assisted Orbital Transfer Vehicle (AOTV) 8/8 - G. Brent Dalrymple: As the World Turns: A Retrospective Look at the Birth of Plate Tectonics --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,decwrl,allegra}!ames!aurora!eugene @ames-vmsb.ARPA:emiya@jup.DECNET ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!tektronix!tekigm!timothym From: tekigm!timothym (Timothy D Margeson) Subject: Re: Space Shuttle Heat Protection Date: 8 Jul 85 17:54:05 GMT Organization: Tektronix, Beaverton OR I seem to recall that a product called Scotchgard was sprayed over the tiles after they were installed and dry. This prevented moisture from permeating the ceramic (the moisture turned to steam upon reentry therebye cracking the tiles and causeing them to blow off). Tim Margeson (206)253-5240 tektronix!tekigm!timothym @@ 'Who said that?' PO Box 3500 d/s C1-465 Vancouver, WA. 98665 -- Tim Margeson (206)253-5240 tektronix!tekigm!timothym @@ 'Who said that?' PO Box 3500 d/s C1-465 Vancouver, WA. 98665 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!utastro!ethan From: utastro!ethan (Ethan Vishniac) Subject: Re: Shuttle Movies Date: 9 Jul 85 21:25:14 GMT Organization: U. Texas, Astronomy, Austin, TX > From: Lyons.HENR@Xerox.ARPA > > A movie presumeably made from the IMAX pictures is now showing at the > Rochester Planetarium entitled, "The Space Shuttle An American > Adventure." It shows a shuttle launch closeup, as well as training > pictures, pictures of the earth from the shuttle, and eva operations > with the remote arm in repairing solar max. The film was apparantly > made for showing on the ceilings of planetariums throughout the country. And if it is as poorly presented in your home town as it was in Rochester it is a damn good idea to avoid this joker. The images were consistently badly out of focus. (Think about the combination of straining your neck to take in the whole picture and straining your eyes to make anything out.) The film itself was moderately boring. The makers concentrated on showing things of minimal interest. The only part that would have been worth seeing (more clearly) were the shots from the shuttle bay, a small part of the picture. -- "Don't argue with a fool. Ethan Vishniac Borrow his money." {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan Department of Astronomy University of Texas ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 9 Jul 85 08:32:03 PDT To: crash!noscvax!space@mit-mc Subject: general space information NASA administrator James Beggs announced the 21 teams that have submitted proposals to establish Centers for the Commercial Development of Space. * The objective of these centers will be to stimulate high technology research in the microgravity environment of space. This research eventually will ead to the development of new products which either have commercial potential or contribute to possible commercial ventures. * The reserach areas proposed include semiconductor crystal growth, remote sensing, communication technology and biotechnology. * Proposals were received from: Battelle-Columbus Lab, Columbus, Ohio * The inst for Technology Development, Jackson, Miss. * Colorado School of Mines, Golden, Co. * Vanderbilt Univ., Nashville, Tenn. * U. of Fla., Gainesville, Fla. * MIT, Cambridge, Mass. * Midwest Research Institute, Kansas City, Mo. * U. of Ala., Birmingham, Ala. * U. of Tenn. Space Inst., Tullahoma, Tenn (2 proposals) * U. of Ala., Huntsville, Ala. * Inst. of Space Research, Houston, Tx. * Polymer Research Inst., Amherst, Mass. * Earth Ata Corp., Stanford, Calif. * Georgia Tech Research Corp., Atlanta, Ga. * The Natl. Technological Univ., Fort Collins, Colo. * University City Science Center, Phila, Penn. * Center for Technology Development, Albuquerque, N.M. * U. of Va., Charlottesville, Va. * Northwestern U., Boston, Mass. * Review by technical, managerial and financial experts is expected to take 45-60 days. NASA will fund between 3 and 6 of the proposals for up to $1 million/year, for a period not to exceed 5 years. Funding is anticipated by Sept. 1985 * Azeezaly Jaffer HQ ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!gymble!lll-crg!dual!ames!eugene From: ames!eugene (Eugene Miya) Subject: Astronaut Selection Date: 8 Jul 85 17:48:18 GMT Organization: NASA-Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA From the Ames Astrogram: Starting August 1, 1985, the NASA Astronaut selection program will shift to a continuous process. Applications for astronaut positions will be taken full time. Pilot qualifications include 1,000 hours pilot-in-command of jet aircraft (I think few on the net have this) plus more. Mission specialists need: - bachelor's degree in engineering, physical, bio science, or math. - at least three years of related professional experience or higher degree - ability to pass a NASA Class II flight physical - height between 60 and 76 inches For more details write: NASA Johnson Space Center AHX/Astronaut Selection Program Houston, TX 77058 Don't mail me. I've nothing to do with this. --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,decwrl,allegra}!ames!aurora!eugene @ames-vmsb.ARPA:emiya@jup.DECNET ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!gymble!lll-crg!dual!ames!eugene From: ames!eugene (Eugene Miya) Subject: Film Review: The Dream is Alive Date: 8 Jul 85 20:26:33 GMT Organization: NASA-Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA This a a brief review of the IMAX short "The Dream is Alive." I saw the film over the 7/4 weekend at the Mariott Great America Theater in Santa Clara. The film starts with the characteristic twin sonic booms heard from earth about two minutes before a landing. The first seen is a view of a landing approach [see comments below regarding disappointments]. It's twilight and quite spectacular. The film appears to be a collection of footage from at least three shuttle flights, including the Solar Max Repair mission, Kathryn Sullivan's first woman in space walk, and Sally Ride's first mission. There are several closeups of launches from different angles (static mounts). Watching the water flow around the shuttle looked interesting. One of the neatest scenes flies into Launch complex 39 from the sea passing the Shuttle on the launch pad. A good portion of the film looks out the windows toward the earth, but you have no perception of depth or scale due to the distance and lack of visual cues. Other scenes included eating in zero-G (lots), and sleeping. The film is not all space shots with some footage in the water tank in Houston showing training. Disappointments: there were no forward or side shots from the shuttle windows during the initial phases of launch or during reentry. The opening landing could have been made using another aircraft. Many of these scenes have been recorded using smaller cameras. Much of the IMAX footage was statically shot, few of the sweeping panoramas characteristic of the aerial IMAX stuff of the past. --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,decwrl,allegra}!ames!aurora!eugene @ames-vmsb.ARPA:emiya@jup.DECNET ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #209 ******************* 11-Jul-85 0350 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #210 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 210 Today's Topics: Re: Orbital sex Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Rotational Inertia Long Cables and Reels IMAX Release Schedule Mailing list ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!markb From: sdcrdcf!markb (Mark Biggar) Subject: Re: Orbital sex Date: 8 Jul 85 17:27:04 GMT Reply-To: markb@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Mark Biggar) Organization: System Development Corp. R+D, Santa Monica It should be noted that there are at least two (maybe three I don't remember) husband and wife couples amoung the current set of shuttle crew members. It should also be noted that NASA has yet to set one of these couples up together (they probably just don't want to have to deal with "unauthorized" expermentation). Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!lwall From: sdcrdcf!lwall (Larry Wall) Subject: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Date: 8 Jul 85 19:24:22 GMT Reply-To: lwall@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Larry Wall) Organization: System Development Corp. R+D, Santa Monica In article <6695@Shasta.ARPA> brain@Shasta.ARPA writes: >Since most of the spinning mass is in the film material itself, and since >that mass is initially all on the supply reel, and eventually all on the >take-up reel, if you have counter-rotating reels, the camera will initially >behave like a gyro spinning in one direction, slowing down, and changing >its direction of spin. Except that there is some mass to the reels themselves, and the emptier reel is spinning FASTER than the fuller one, and more so as it gets emptier. Perhaps there is some weight of reel which is optimal. Is the gyroscopic effect related to angular momentum or to energy? Hmm. It doesn't appear to be a linear effect in any event, since as the effective radius decreases, the rate of decrease increases. Got that? Anybody care to figure out the math of it? Larry Wall {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!lwall ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 10 Jul 1985 13:10-EDT From: jrv@Mitre-Bedford To: space@MIT-MC Subject: Rotational Inertia cc: biesel@RUTGERS.ARPA > I've been watching the comments concerning ways to overcome the gyroscopic > inertia problem with the OMNIMAX cameras with growing disbelief. The 'fix' > seems to consist of a second counterrotating mass whose angular momentum > is matched by various means to that of the filmreel. It won't work, of course. > Adding a second rotating mass, counterrotating, at right angles, or > whatever will simply *ADD* to the problem by creating more angular > momentum. You might as well try to 'cancel' some mass by adding some > mass in another place; it just doesn't work that way. Of course it works that way. The angular momentum of a collection of masses is a vector sum of the angular momenta of the masses, so it's possible for the sum to come to zero. Can anyone think of a simple demonstration? - Jim Van Zandt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jul 85 15:42:37 EDT From: Smith@UDel-Dewey.ARPA To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Long Cables and Reels Hi all! Since this is my first time here I should introduce myself... My name is art smith, and I am a recent graduate of the University of Delaware with Master's degrees in Chemistry and Computr Science. I've been reading this bboard for a while and two recent entries prompted me two respond... First: cancelling angular momentum with angular momentum is QUITE different from cancelling mass with mass -- one is a vector quantity, and the other a scalar. The real difficulty (pardon the pun) is that the various vectors of angular momentum don't have the same base point, and so cancelling can be difficult. Just 'cause the vectors are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction doesn't mean they exactly cancel -- they may produce a torque, as in: <-------+ <-force vector one | This arm will turn. + <-pivot on arm | +-------> <-force vector two Secondly: The idea of tapping the potential difference in the solar wind at the leading and trailing edges of the earth by "stretching a cable from one side of the field to the other" may have problems besides the obvious (and NO FUN) logistic ones... It assumes (at least) that the cable has a lower resistance than the plasma which has been elsewhere described as very conductive. Just because there is a potential difference at two ends of a (sufficiently long and narrow) cable does NOT mean that a current will flow. It may be a very stable potential gradient caused by external conditions. Does anyone who understands these things better than I (i.e. most of you) have any feelings on this? Hope to be contributing more... art smith (smith@dewey.ARPA) (302) 451-6337 <- can leave a message, at least! ------------------------------ To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: IMAX Release Schedule Date: 10 Jul 85 16:46:59 EDT (Wed) From: Walt Lazear The Air Force Times published a schedule of release dates for the new IMAX film "The Dream is Alive": June: Nat. Air & Space Mus., Washington, DC Amer. Mus. of Natural Hist., NY Calif. Mus. Of Sci & Ind, LA Great America, Santa Clara July: Alabama Space & Rocket Center, Huntsville Spaceport USA, Kennedy Space Center, Fla. August: Ontario Place, Toronto September: Detroit Science Center, Mich Edmonton Space Sciences Centre, Edmonton, Alberta Sijthoff Planetarium, The Hague, Netherlands Nat. Mus. of Photography (Film & TV), Bradford, England October: Pacific Science Center, Seattle Sci. Mus of VA, Richmond, Virginia Kansas Cosmosphere & Discovery Center, Hutchinson, Kansas The Internat. Space Hall of Fame, Alamogordo, NM Fort Worth Mus. of Sci. & Hist. Sand Diego Hall of Science November: Sci. Mus. of Minn., St. Paul December: Musee National Des Sciences, Des Techniques, Et Des Industries, Paris It seems others on this mailing list have noted even more places which currently show the film, but I may be counting messages which merely state there is an IMAX theater in their town. ------------------------------ From: ucscc!B.root@Berkeley Date: Wed, 10 Jul 85 10:01:26 pdt To: c.Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Mailing list Your mailing list apparently includes ucscc!b:cfp. This user no longer exists. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #210 ******************* 12-Jul-85 0350 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #211 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 211 Today's Topics: Re: Gyroscopic reels Re: Space Whoopee Re: Gyroscopic sideffects Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Spaceweek 1985 cancel <643@bgsuvax.UUCP> RE: Space Whoopee Re: Space Shuttle Computers Countdown Starts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!oakhill!kvue!spangler From: kvue!spangler (Lance Spangler) Subject: Re: Gyroscopic reels Date: 10 Jul 85 21:09:07 GMT Organization: KVUE-TV There are motion picture cameras which should solve the problems associated with one reel being fuller than the other...and the inertia problems associated with the speed involved. Most everyone remembers the film magazines shaped like mouse ears. Most film cameras (16 & 35mm) still use something like that. But years ago, a 16mm sound camera called a (sp?) Belieau used what was termed stacked loading. That is, the feed reel and the take up reel literally sat on top of each other, with a small hub between each to take care of the difference in reel speed. While I haven't picked up a camera in years (anyone want to buy a complete Bolex 16mm outfit? <:-)) I know the technology still exists. We presently use a RCA portable 1" vtr that uses the same type of stacked loading. Would this sort of setup solve the inerta problems which seem to be creating problems in a weightless environment? I'm not sure, but after reading the hack about opposing reels traveling in opposite directions, I thought I'd throw the idea out. I'm sure Arriflex or who ever is making the motion picture cameras for NASA these days could whip one out. Or for that matter, check with Belieau in France to see if they make a unit suitable for the shuttle. I know the Belieau was a beauty of a camera back in my news photographer days...power zoom...auto iris...a battery that lasted for ever...etc. {ihnp4,seismo,gatech,harvard,ctvax,nbires,ucb-vax}!ut-sally!kvue!spangler Telco: 512-459-6521 (Ext. 2068) Lance Spangler Telco: 512-459-1433 (Pvt. biz line) Senior Producer KVUE Television The only thing we have to Austin, Texas fear is computing itself! <:-)) ((P. O. Box 9927)) zip------> 78766 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!greipa!pesnta!pertec!kontron!steve From: kontron!steve (Steve McIntosh) Subject: Re: Space Whoopee Date: 8 Jul 85 16:07:01 GMT Organization: Kontron Electronics, Irvine, CA > From: LShilkoff.ES@Xerox.ARPA > > Question: How do you avoid moving from a stationary point in space while > having intimate relations. > Answer: Bunjee cords [Perhaps the Russians have already tried it] ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!drutx!mtuxo!pegasus!phoenix!brent From: phoenix!brent (Brent P. Callaghan) Subject: Re: Gyroscopic sideffects Date: 10 Jul 85 14:24:20 GMT Organization: AT&T Information Systems, Lincroft NJ The discussion on the IMAX camera gyroscopic problems on the shuttle brings to mind a similar story pertaining to an airborne computer in the 60's. The heart of the computer was a magnetic drum, rather massive, and spinning at high speed. Shortly after takeoff the computer developed a deep psychosis as the aircraft banked, followed immediately by a screaming noise from its rotating insides. Sooner or later, rotating storage media will be carried on the shuttle or space station. Perhaps a drive with contra-rotating disks is the answer. -- Made in New Zealand --> Brent Callaghan AT&T Information Systems, Lincroft, NJ {ihnp4|mtuxo|pegasus}!phoenix!brent (201) 576-3475 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!inuxc!pur-ee!uiucdcs!convex!trsvax!gm From: gm@trsvax Subject: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Date: 8 Jul 85 16:42:00 GMT > While I am at it, does anyone know anywhere else that IMAX films are being > shown? Well, there's one right here in good old Ft. Worth. I believe that it has the largest Omnimax dome in the country. (Ft. Worth Museum of Science and History). If only the image projected by the film was large enough to fill it... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "I've added a few jumpers. The Milliamp Falcon can run current loops around any Imperial TTY fighter. She's fast enough for you, old version." ------------ George Moore (gm@trsvax.UUCP) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 1985 1249-PDT (Thursday) From: Craig E. Ward To: Space@mit-mc, Aviation@mit-mc, Physics@sri-unix Cc: bboard@usc-isib, sf-lovers@mit-mc Subject: Spaceweek 1985 Spaceweek-1985 Activivites A Series of Events in Celebration of the 16th Anniversary of the First Manned Moon Landing In honor of Spaceweek 1985, OASIS/L5 will be sponsoring the following events. The attendance at some of the events is limited so make your reservations now. July 16, 18, 24, Satellite Business Systems, Downtown Los Angles A Tour of Satellite Business Systems On each of these days, from 2:00 to 5:00pm, we will be having a tour of the largest satellite data processing facility on the west coast. Each tour is limited to 30 people. For reservations, call F. Wiley Livermont at (818)700-8382. July 20, Rockwell International DEI Room, Downey A Tour of the Rockwell DEI Room See a full scale mock-up of the Space Shuttle and the Space Station Crew Module. There will also be a short presentation by Howard Gluckman of Rockwell International. Events start at 10:00am. Enter the Rockwell International Plant at Gate 53 near the corner of Bellflower, Stewart and Grey Blvds. July 20, TRW Forum, Redondo Beach Next Human Destination: The Moons of Mars Well known futurist and former astronaut Dr. Brian O'Leary will speak on the possible missions to the moons of Mars. The TRW forum is located at 1 Space Park in Redondo Beach. Enter TRW at Compton Blvd. just east of Aviation Blvd. The talk starts at 3:00pm. Admission will be $2.00. July 21, California Museum of Science and Industry, Los Angles Aerospace Museum Tour and IMAX Theater Presentation Starting at 11:00am, we will have a tour of the Aerospace Museum. At 2:30pm, there will be an IMAX presentation of the film "The Dream is Alive", which includes IMAX space shuttle footage. Tickets will have to be purchased for this event. For reservations, call F. Wiley Livermont at (818)700-8382. July 21, Griffith Observatory, Los Angles The California Universe -- 50th Anniversary Meet at the Griffith Observatory at about 7:00pm for the evening observatory show. Tickets will have to be purchased at the Observatory. Week of July 22, TRW, Redondo Beach A Tour of the Satellite High Bay Facility at TRW We are also currently trying to arrange a tour sometime during the week of July 22 for a small group of people. If you would like to go on the tour, call F. Wiley Livermont at (818)700-8382. For more information about the above events, call (213)374-1381. OASIS/L5 P.O. Box 1231 Redondo Beach, CA 90278 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!cbosgd!apr!osu-eddie!bgsuvax!schultz From: bgsuvax!schultz Subject: cancel <643@bgsuvax.UUCP> Date: 10 Jul 85 15:22:19 GMT Control: cancel <643@bgsuvax.UUCP> Organization: Bowling Green State University, OH ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!cbosgd!apr!osu-eddie!bgsuvax!schultz From: bgsuvax!schultz (Steven Schultz) Subject: RE: Space Whoopee Date: 10 Jul 85 15:27:32 GMT Organization: Bowling Green State University, OH > . . . NASA is planning for experiments involving > intimate relations on board the future space station with married > couples and couples with "significant relationships". > > Question: How do you avoid moving from a stationary point in space while > having intimate relations. > > I understand the first space based birth control device will be called > the heat shield :-) > > Larry Uh, just a few questions, Larry. What is a "significant relationship"? Does lust count for anything? And I heard that these "heat sheilds" are having problems. They are falling off and cracking during 'liftoff' and especially during 'reentry'. Any truth to these rumours? :-) Steven Schultz =============================================================================== "You can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant, excepting Alice" -Arlo Guthrie "Alice's Restaurant Massacree" =============================================================================== PATH: uw-beaver!ihnp4!cbosgd!osu-eddie!bgsuvax!schultz =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!eder From: ssc-vax!eder (Dani Eder) Subject: Re: Space Shuttle Computers Date: 5 Jul 85 20:10:32 GMT Organization: Boeing Aerospace Co., Seattle, WA > > ...the fifth one is different from the other 4; it is made by Rockwell... > > I could be proven wrong, but I am quite sure that all 5 cpus are the same. > The fifth one, however, was PROGRAMMED by Rockwell rather than IBM. The > quintuple hardware redundancy provides backup for hardware failure. The > separate program for #5 provides a backup for the software. > > BTW, the 5 computers only run as a quintuple redundant set during critical > phases of the mission (ascent and decent, and perhaps during some of the > prelaunch activities). At other times, they are decoupled and given separate > tasks, with only double or triple redundancy for such things as orbital > calculations, environment management, and running the arm. The following is extracted from a Rockwell International reference book on the space shuttle: The memory capacity of each CPU is 81,920 words. The memory capacity of each input-output processor (which intermediates between CPU and real world) is 24,576 words. To accomplish all of the mission phases, approx. 400,000 woeds are required. To fit the software, it has been divided into 9 parts. Mass memory is provided by two tape drives totalling 37 Meg. Each I/O Processor contains 24 processors, each controlling one data bus. The computers perform 325000 operations/second, and when operating in a redundant mode compare results 440 times/second. Each CPU is 7 1/2 x 10 x 19 inches and weighs 57 pounds. The I/O processors are the same size and weight. Each of two mass memories is 7 1/2 x 11 x 15 inches and weights 22 lbs. Dani Eder/ Boeing Advanced Space Transportation Organization/ssc-vax!eder ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Countdown Starts Date: 11 Jul 85 03:12:58 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill At 1100 EDT today, the countdown for the nineteenth space shuttle mission started with the call to stations. Liftoff for the purely scientific mission is scheduled for 1630 EDT Friday, only the third afternoon shuttle launch. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #211 ******************* 13-Jul-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #212 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 212 Today's Topics: Re: gyroscopic reels VIP Shuttle Passes Angular Momentum, Inertia, and IMAX. References Included. Filming in Space RE: Space Whoopee ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!randvax!kovacs!rivero From: kovacs!rivero (Michael Foster Rivero) Subject: Re: gyroscopic reels Date: 10 Jul 85 00:44:57 GMT Reply-To: rivero@kovacs.UUCP (Michael Foster Rivero) Organization: Robt Abel & Assoc, Hollywood In article <2498@mordor.UUCP> @S1-A.ARPA,@MIT-MC.ARPA:king@Kestrel writes: >From: king@Kestrel.ARPA > >As the fullness of a reel increases its moment increases and its >angular velocity decreases. > >We have two degrees of freedom: hub diameter and moment of an empty >reel. It seems likely to me that e can make any variations in the >angular momentum third-order. I'll do the math when I'm less busy... Of course, there's the problem of mass leaving one rotating tape reel and moving to the other on a continuous basis. That makes the math more interesting! Mike ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!akgua!akguc!cpsc53a!dta From: cpsc53a!dta (Doug Anderson) Subject: VIP Shuttle Passes Date: 10 Jul 85 14:25:28 GMT Organization: AT&T CPSC, Atlanta, Georgia From: Doug Anderson Subject: VIP Shuttle Passes. NASA has provided an address to write to to get VIP passes for future shuttle launches. These passes allow the holder to take one (1) vehicle on to Merritt Island (the place you see all the TV footage from during the launches). You can pile as many people in the vehicle as you wish. The sight is about 1.5 miles from the shuttle launch pad and you get GREAT viewing!! NASA Public Affairs, PA-VIC, John F. Kennedy Space Center Kennedy Space Center Florida, 32899 While I've never requested a pass for a particular launch they seem to try to get you one for the next launch available so if your comming down to Florida you may just want to try and get a pass. Doug Anderson ATT-IS Orland Florida ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jul 85 10:11:47 EDT From: David Miller Subject: Angular Momentum, Inertia, and IMAX. References Included. To: space@MIT-MC The reason the IMAX camera is difficult to move is due to the "gyroscopic effect" put on the camera by the rotating film reels. This was pointed out in the original article. All of the suggestions having to do with counter rotating reels will not diminish this effect at all. Angular momentum has direction and can be cancelled by an equal amount in the opposite direction. "Gyroscopic effect" is due to INERTIA and is a magnitude independent of direction. Marion's "Calssical Dynamics" Chapter 12 has a good explanation on the subject. But for a more intuitive situation think of two gyroscopes rotating in opposite direction. Now attach their outer frames. The outsides will stop rotating, but the gyroscopes will not topple over (as a cancellation of gyroscopic effect would indicate). Instead, the entire system is more stable than its parts. Inertial guidance systems have relied on this for years. They are crammed full of gyroscopes in all orientations and rotating in different directions. --David Miller ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1985 16:09 EDT Sender: WHOLEY@CMU-CS-C.ARPA From: Skef Wholey To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Filming in Space From: kvue!spangler (Lance Spangler) That is, the feed reel and the take up reel literally sat on top of each other, with a small hub between each to take care of the difference in reel speed. I'm sure Arriflex or who ever is making the motion picture cameras for NASA these days could whip one out. A big point Arri is making in its advertisements lately is that the Arri cameras used for these (non-IMAX) films are "off-the-shelf" equipment. An interesting article on filming aboard the shuttle appears in a recent issue of American Cinematographer (May 1985, I think). These are the first off-the-shelf cameras ever used by NASA, and they finally seem to have accepted that they needn't build their own. The article doesn't mention the gyroscoping problem, so maybe it wasn't as big a problem (at least for the 16mm cameras) as some think. Or maybe the author wasn't ready to explain physics to a bunch of movie people. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jul 85 17:10:02 pdt From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: RE: Space Whoopee Quite aside from the sniggering in this matter, there's a serious question here. Can humans conceive and reproduce in free fall? Maybe it will never matter (the O'Neill colony will have artificial gravity) but we still should find out. The effects of free fall on a fetus can't be measured until the space station goes up, and for that matter the effects on a human fetus shouldn't be explored at all until there has been at least one animal (preferably primate) pregnancy and birth in space. However, we can test the ability to conceive right now: send a pair of rabbits up, with the female due to go in heat while in orbit. This test wouldn't prove the negative result conclusively if the rabbits refused to Do It, but that (knowing rabbits) is fairly unlikely.... Rick. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #212 ******************* 14-Jul-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #213 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 213 Today's Topics: Re: Rotational Inertia Re: Shuttle Comps etc Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights [Communications Satellite : Msg of Saturday, 13 July 1985 12:53-EDT] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!hao!hull From: hao!hull (Howard Hull) Subject: Re: Rotational Inertia Date: 12 Jul 85 18:43:56 GMT Organization: High Altitude Obs./NCAR, Boulder CO > From: jrv@Mitre-Bedford > > > > I've been watching the comments concerning ways to overcome the gyroscopic > > inertia problem with the OMNIMAX cameras with growing disbelief. The 'fix' > > seems to consist of a second counterrotating mass whose angular momentum > > is matched by various means to that of the filmreel. It won't work, of course. > > Adding a second rotating mass, counterrotating, at right angles, or > > whatever will simply *ADD* to the problem by creating more angular > > momentum. You might as well try to 'cancel' some mass by adding some > > mass in another place; it just doesn't work that way. > > Of course it works that way. The angular momentum of a collection of > masses is a vector sum of the angular momenta of the masses, so it's > possible for the sum to come to zero. Can anyone think of a simple > demonstration? > - Jim Van Zandt Sure. Two skaters spin up in opposite directions, approach each other, and then lock arms. Presto, net zero angular momentum. If the proposed theory is correct, all of the atoms in both their livers will be found to be spinning in opposite directions... Howard Hull [If yet unproven concepts are outlawed in the range of discussion... ...Then only the deranged will discuss yet unproven concepts] {ucbvax!hplabs | allegra!nbires | harpo!seismo } !hao!hull ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!hao!ames!eugene From: ames!eugene (Eugene Miya) Subject: Re: Shuttle Comps etc Date: 12 Jul 85 16:32:35 GMT Organization: NASA-Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA PLEASE MOVE THE DISCUSSION OF IMAX/OMNIMAX INTERIA TO net.movies or net.rec.photo. Does its really belong here? > From: jim@TYCHO.ARPA (James B. Houser) > > Hi > > Thanx for the numerous replies on my question about the STS > computers. Those beasties are really grotesque!! A number of people > mentioned rumors of a plan to upgrade the system but no concrete > pointer emerged from the discussion. Any words from NASA types out > there? > > Jim Houser (jim@tycho) > I don't think are any plans in the immediate lifetime of the shuttle to upgrade them. As others have pointed out there were technology freezes in the early 1970s which 'forced' this. Payload computers will certainly change, but don't expect these. This is called "if it works don't fix it." Oh hum. On an added note: on a recent trip to the Dryden Landing site, I saw a little case in the visitor center there showing onboard avonics history: 1960, 1970, 1980s and sample electronics. The 1980s [future] were represented with Intel 8080s [it's the numbers right?] :-) Service technologies to aerodynamics are unfortunately always oing to take a backseat. [Until some one leaps ahead.] Dryden has a much better museum and gift shop than Ames. --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,decwrl,allegra}!ames!aurora!eugene emiya@ames-vmsb.ARPA ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!hplabs!sri-unix!knutsen From: knutsen@sri-unix.ARPA (Andrew Knutsen) Subject: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Date: 11 Jul 85 19:38:29 GMT Organization: SRI, Menlo Park, CA. Re the IMAX gyro problem, it seems to me all you'd need is one extra wheel to counter the excess angular momentum of both film reels. It would spin first in one direction, slow to a stop at the middle, then spin the other way. This would take either a micro or some sort of clever sensor to control, but due to the varying masses some control would be required even with two wheels. Actually, I dont have all that much experience with counter- rotating gyros. Someone recently claimed that gyro action could not be compensated for, but from my understanding of the effect the precession problems could be alleviated at least. Would there still be a resistance to rotation? I would say that might even be a "feature" rather than a "bug". Andrew ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!petsd!peora!jer From: peora!jer (J. Eric Roskos) Subject: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Date: 11 Jul 85 12:57:33 GMT Organization: Perkin-Elmer SDC, Orlando, Fl. I know I must be grossly bekinghted to be asking this, but... what is so special about these IMAX films? Everyone keeps saying "go look at the projector," so I went over to NASA this weekend and looked for it, but it appears to be locked up in some upstairs room. I had thought maybe the rate at which the frames were shown was extremely fast or something (because of the comments on inertia, etc.), but it doesn't look that way since specks of dust on the film stay long enough to see them fairly well. If you know, mail the answer to me, since everyone else seems to already know the answer to this great mystery... -- Shyy-Anzr: J. Eric Roskos UUCP: ..!{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!vax135!petsd!peora!jer US Mail: MS 795; Perkin-Elmer SDC; 2486 Sand Lake Road, Orlando, FL 32809-7642 Gur ArgArjf... n qlvat pbzzhavpngvba sbez? ------------------------------ Date: Sat 13 Jul 85 12:55:00-EDT From: James J. Hagen Jr. Subject: [Communications Satellite : Msg of Saturday, 13 July 1985 12:53-EDT] To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA --------------- Date: Sat, 13 Jul 85 12:53:36 EDT From: Communications Satellite Subject: Msg of Saturday, 13 July 1985 12:53-EDT To: MDC.HAGEN@MIT-OZ ============ A copy of your message is being returned, because: ============ "SPACE-REQUESTS" at MIT-MC.ARPA is an unknown recipient. ============ Failed message follows: ============ Date: Sat 13 Jul 85 12:52:58-EDT From: James J. Hagen Jr. Subject: Address change To: space-requests@MIT-MC.ARPA Please change MDC.HAGEN%OZ to HAGEN%OZ. Thanks much... ------- ------- ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #213 ******************* 15-Jul-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #214 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 214 Today's Topics: Teachers Selected Launch Aborted Columbia Back in Service Shuttle Frequencies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!gamma!epsilon!zeta!sabre!bellcore!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Teachers Selected Date: 2 Jul 85 00:48:22 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill Ten teachers, six women and four men, were chosen by NASA today as finalists out of a group of 100 vying for the chance to be the first private citizen in space. The ten, ranging in age from 35 to 45, will be flown to Houston on 12 July for a series of medical tests and a flight in a KC-135 plane to get their first taste of weightlessness. NASA will pick one teacher and a backup for the January, 1986, flight of the Challenger. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Launch Aborted Date: 13 Jul 85 05:40:18 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill The Challenger's launch attempt was aborted today, just three seconds before SRB ignition. In a near replay of the abort last summer, a valve that regulates the flow of hydrogen into the Number 2 Engine did not respond to its primary control circuit. A backup circuit sent the proper command 40 milliseconds after the failure was detected, but by that time, the ground sequence computer decided to abort the launch -- NASA rules forbid a launch unless all systems, including redundancies, are functioning, so that backups will be available once in flight. At the time of the abort, two engines were at full power, while the Number 2 Engine was near it. A water spray system, installed after last summer's abort and proceeding fire, activated, but there was no fire. NASA said the launch will be delayed at least 7 to 10 days while an assessment of the problem is made. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Columbia Back in Service Date: 12 Jul 85 12:20:03 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill The nation's first spaceworthy shuttle, Columbia, was towed from its Rockwell plant yesterday, an 18 month overhaul completed. The ship is scheduled to return to KSC on Sunday. During the overhaul, the Columbia's wings and body were strengthened, new engine's were installed, ejection seats removed, and HUD's implaced, among other things. The Columbia is now capable of flying 100 missions without overhaul, except for main engine work. The Challenger is next scheduled for overhaul, in order to bring it up to date with Discovery, Atlantis, and now the Columbia. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!petsd!petfe!johnd From: petfe!johnd (John Decatur) Subject: Shuttle Frequencies Date: 12 Jul 85 20:58:42 GMT Organization: Perkin-Elmer DSG, Tinton Falls, N.J. for those who like to listen to hams at work... this shuttle flight has two, W0ORE, tony and W4NYZ john. also sstv this flight! planned shuttle frequencies for 51-f are: (all freq. in mhz.) direct 2m down - 145.55 (slow scan tv in color also...) nasa/goddard greenbelt md. 3.860 ssb 7.185 ssb 14.295 ssb 21.390 ssb 147.450 fm wash dc area jet prop. lab/pasadena ca. 224.040 fm 145.460 fm marshall space flight cntr huntsville ,al 145.430 fm nasa/aims san francisco, ca 145.580 fm 7.270 ssb new york city area 147.000 fm (as avail) good listening.... es 73, de KA2QHD -- 73, de ...johnd (KA2QHD) {ucbvax|decvax}!vax135!petsd!pedsgd!pedsga!johnd =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #214 ******************* 16-Jul-85 0353 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #215 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 215 Today's Topics: Re: Launch Aborted Actuator Thought to be Problem IMAX IMAX and the Shuttle flights Re: Orphaned Response Solar System mobile Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Re: Speed of Light and beyond Re: Nuclear Rockets Re: Space Whoopee ... Re: Space Whoopee Angular Momentum Cancelation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!jg From: mit-eddie!jg (Jim Gettys) Subject: Re: Launch Aborted Date: 14 Jul 85 15:59:07 GMT Reply-To: jg@mit-eddie.UUCP (Jim Gettys) Organization: MIT, Cambridge, MA Keywords: Shuttle, Challenger, Launch I was at JSC for the attempted launch of Spacelab 2 Friday. (I worked on the Infrared Telescope that will fly on it five years ago...). The word was in a meeting to discuss the impact on various experiments on SL2 that another attempt would be no earlier than July 30. This was given as a "first guess" rather than as gospel; meetings yesterday were to firm up the estimate. This would put launch at full moon, which is the least desirable time for two or three experiments on board. Any slip beyond this date will again improve the situation. The concensus of all of the experimenters was to "go" as soon as Challenger is ready, even if it hurts some of the experiments. A good reason for this feeling is the effort required to get every thing ready for flight is large, and the longer the payload sits, the more trouble people will have with their experiments. There are more and more things which must be serviced the longer the payload sits on the ground. This delay should allow the repair of experiment 13 (Super Fluid Helium), which had a vacuum pump failure a couple days before the launch attempt. This failure caused some pump oil to be spilled in the payload bay. This caused KSC to have to turn off the pump, allowing the LHe to go normal, which would have cause at least half of the helium to be lost when reconverted on orbit (if successful...). Jim Gettys Project Athena jg@mit-athena.arpa ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Actuator Thought to be Problem Date: 14 Jul 85 05:13:20 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill NASA said today that technicians believed yesterday's abort to be due to a faulty actuator on a hydrogen cutoff valve. The actuator will be removed Sunday for extensive testing, and NASA officials will meet Monday to decide how to proceed -- whether to set another launch date or move the Challenger off the pad and delay its mission indefinitely. Timing becomes critical now. Columbia is scheduled to arrive at the Cape on Sunday, marking the first time all four shuttle have been at the space centre. Atlantis is due to be moved into the VAB this week for mating with SRB's and ET and then moved to the launch pad for a flight readiness test firing (lasting 20 seconds) on 30 July. If Challenger's launch is set for later this month, that firing will be delayed, thereby postponing Atlantis' maiden mission, now set for mid-September. Discovery is due to launch on 24 August; its mission will be to deploy three communications satellites and attempt to rescue to the stranded Syncom satellite. The launch window for that mission is only four days wide. Columbia's next launch, its first after its recently completed overhaul, is set for December. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 85 13:31:06 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: IMAX To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A I just got back from a trip to DC and spent an afternoon in the National Air and Space Museum. Naturaqlly, I had to see the IMAX movies we've been hearing about for so long. My opinions on The Dream is Alive probably overlap those of many others. I wish they had left out the good film technique (ie cuts to different items like smiling faces in launch control at 'right' intervals for 'pacing', etc) and just shown the launch. IMAX is so real (except for an annoying jitter when showing rapid motion) that cuts are annoying as all hell. I think it's about as near to real as you can get with film. I think I could watch 90 minutes of the earth passing below with just the music background. I disagree with Eugene about the landing. Having flown a Cessna, I guarantee you that the approach was not just like any aircraft!!!! I was almost glad they cut to an external view before touchdown; I was already cringing for the impact. If you've never FLOWN an approach it may have looked normal, but if you have....JEEZUS!!!! (FULL POWER! CARB HEAT OFF! NOSE UP! ESTABLISH CLIMB OUT! FLAPS UP!! TOILET PAPER DISPENSED!!!) Despite the detractions caused by attempts at artistry, the film is worth seeing again and again. If you're a really hard core spacer and cry at launches, bring some kleenex; you'll need it. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!hplabs!hpisla!hplvla!chris From: hplvla!chris (chris) Subject: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Date: 11 Jul 85 19:40:00 GMT Organization: HP Loveland Instrument Division There is an IMAX theatre in Denver, Colo, at the Museum of Natural History, and there is one on the South Rim of the Grand Canyon, in the little village just south of the Park boundary. I suspect there are others in other major cities, maybe their residents will respond. hpfcla!hplvla!chris ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!hplabs!hp-pcd!hpgrla!erickp From: hpgrla!erickp (erickp) Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 8 Jul 85 18:23:00 GMT The Museum of Natural History in Denver has an IMAX theater. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 85 14:45:34 PDT (Monday) Subject: Solar System mobile To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: XeroxSpace^.PA@Xerox.ARPA From: Nick Does anyone know where a mobile of the solar system like the one in "Last Starfighter" can be obtained. I've tried the gift shops of the Aviation and Space Museum here and in San Diego with no luck. \\ Nick ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!brl-tgr!ron From: ron@brl-tgr.ARPA (Ron Natalie ) Subject: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Date: 15 Jul 85 21:26:55 GMT Organization: Ballistic Research Lab > I had thought maybe the rate at which the frames were shown was extremely > fast or something (because of the comments on inertia, etc.), but it > doesn't look that way since specks of dust on the film stay long enough to > see them fairly well. > Those specs are on a glass plate which is in direct contact with the film. The plate is slightly larger than twice the image size and there is a little gizmo for sliding it back and forth while the projector is in use to get a clean portion. It is however manually operated. For those who are around the Washington area, to get to the projection room at NASM, go in and watch the movie. As you are walking up to exit the theater, use the right side aisle (house left). There will be a closed door on the left as you exit the theater. Go through it, climb up the ladder and there you are. -Ron ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!teddy!rdp From: teddy!rdp Subject: Re: Speed of Light and beyond Date: 15 Jul 85 21:09:09 GMT Reply-To: rdp@teddy.UUCP (Richard D. Pierce) Organization: GenRad, Inc., Concord, Mass. In article <5602@utzoo.UUCP> henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) writes: >> I know this is impossible, but what would happen if... >> >> A ship could exceed the speed of light? When the space shuttle crosses the >> sound barrier, there is a sonic boom. If it were possible to cross the >> "light barrier", what phenomenon would result? > >A lot of heart attacks in the physics community, for one. :-) > >More seriously, as I recall it, the basic answer to this from relativity >(if we ignore tachyons, which are a messy case) is "does not compute". >Faster-than-light speeds involve logical contradictions (notably, loss of >the normal cause-and-effect relationship) according to special relativity. >This being the case, the theory basically cannot give coherent predictions >about such a situation. > >I'd be very interested to hear this contradicted by somebody who knows >more about the subject... >-- In fact, under the right conditions, one can achieve "faster than light" travel. While on cannot exceed a certain velocity "c" (2.99 x 10^8 m/s), the velocity of propogation of light through matter is somewhat less than this inviolable "c". For example, (if my memory serves me) light travels about 30% slower in water than it does in a vacuum. Under this circumstance, something which travels faster than that (but still MUST be less than "c") will, in fact, produce the light equivalent of a sonic boom, known as Cerenkov radiation. This is a shock wave which travels outward in a cone (whose included angle is proportional to the ratio of the speed of light in the media to the speed of the particle). Note that no violation of any physical law occurs. Nothing can travel faster than the sacred "Speed of Light" , which is the speed of light absent of any influences (matter). ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!teddy!rdp From: teddy!rdp Subject: Re: Nuclear Rockets Date: 15 Jul 85 21:15:51 GMT Reply-To: rdp@teddy.UUCP (Richard D. Pierce) Organization: GenRad, Inc., Concord, Mass. In article <1839@mordor.UUCP> @S1-A.ARPA,@MIT-MC:jheimann@bbnccy writes: >From: John H. Heimann > > > Back in the 'sixties, there were a number of programs (funded, I think, >by NASA and what was then AEC) to develop nuclear powered space propulsion >schemes. The ones I recall are project Orion, which involved the detonation of > > My question is, why were these projects cancelled? I can imagine that >project Orion would violate the Limited Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, which >prohibits atmospheric or outer-space testing of nuclear weapons. The main >reason I can think of for cancelling the hydrogen/reactor engine is concern >about radioactive exhaust or, if the rocket should crash, radioactive waste. >Neither of these concerns would be legitimate if the engine were used well >outside the earth's atmosphere. There is of course the problem of getting a >fission reactor safely into orbit. A few tons of plutionium oxide, molten from >reentry, would not be the nicest thing to have falling into one's backyard. > The use of nuclear propulsion tended (in the case of the non-explosive technique) to result in extremely high exhaust velocities and very high efficiencies, but extremely low thrusts. I recall hearing of thrusts in the neighborhood of ounces! Such propulsion methods are useful when you can tolerate long durations of firings (months or years) and do not need tremendous accelerations. For near-earth and earth-moon manned missions, and the like, what was needed was lots of thrust over short periods of time, the kinf of things chemical rockets are good at. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 1985 21:59 PST From: Lars Poulsen Subject: Re: Space Whoopee ... To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: LARS@ACC From "The Weekly" of Santa Barbara, July 11th, comes this little filler piece titled ''SEX IN SPACE'': ''Seeking to ensure the success of space missions, NASA has to be sensitive to the needs of its crew members. With the first US space station scheduled to go up in 1992, and "manned" by members of both sexes, provisions for some extra-terestrial nookie are cur- rently being explored. According to Yvonne Clearwater, an envir- onmental psychologist for the space agency, normal, healthy professionals will probably possess normal, healthy sexual appe- tites. It isn't NASA's job to make moral judgments, just to make sure the station's scientific work isn't disrupted. And that, says Clearwater, means providing an "environment where needs for auditory and visual privacy are met."'' ------ ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-pen!kallis From: kallis@pen.DEC Subject: Re: Space Whoopee Date: 15 Jul 85 14:01:28 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: DEC Engineering Network The question of whether a woman or other mammal could conceive in "zero g" is easily answered without having to make a "Rabbit Test": 1) Most human activities have been tested in negative gravity (e.g., you can eat and swallow upside down; drinking water upside down has been a folk remedy for curing hiccups for more than a century). 2) Spermatozoa swim to their target. 3) Fetrilized eggs attach to the uterus without help from gravity. 4) The developing zygote/embryo/fetus is in a sac of amniotic fluid that effectively puts it in as "weightless" an environment as astronauts-in-training do when skindiving. The chemical exchange across the placental link is not dependent upon gravity. It's possible that there might be complications, but I rather suspect not. Don't forget that humans come from a billions-year-old evolutionary chain that goes back to "weightless" sea life, and there are a lot of safeguards buolt in. Steve Kallis, Jr. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-wsgate!fisher From: fisher@wsgate.DEC Subject: Angular Momentum Cancelation Date: 15 Jul 85 17:27:56 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: DEC Engineering Network <> Someone asked for an example of angular momentum cancellation. Isn't there a helicopter which has two counterrotating, coaxial blades, rather than a tail rotor? (Perhaps it was a Popular Science "Coming next year" article that talked about it, rather than something real). Burns UUCP: ... {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dvinci!fisher ARPA: fisher%dvinci.dec@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #215 ******************* 17-Jul-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #216 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 216 Today's Topics: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #215 IMAX's The Dream is ... Fragmented ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 16 Jul 85 20:50:25-EDT From: James J. Hagen Jr. Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #215 To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA I guess I can do the drive back to Rome thing with no probs, I am not sure if I have to work on monday, so I may be able to just drive home to albany on monday. I have been working unusual hours and somewhat infrequebntly( I quit minimum wage trash and now doing moving for $8 an hour. It is interesting, got to move a baby grand my first day on the job, problem is it is not dependable. hours vary greatly) I will bring one case of beer to delta, that should be reasonable for our group. One problem with things, is I am low on cash, from this last week being quite slow with work. I need a favor of you, to get $50 out of bank and I will give you a quite good money order for the same amount from my grandma( I still have no bank account, and my dad and Connie are currently away) Other wise I would have about $10 dollars for gas and what ever else comes up with camping. I do not need anything from base rec. I will bring tent, and I have everything I should need, except a flashlight( I should buy one someday but I never seem to get around to having it a major priorty). See you thursday, tween 5 and 6. Are you planning to be home near 5 on thurs. or what, should I head right to your house, or call you at work or what?? These questions and more, as soon as I think them up ------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jul 85 19:49 PDT From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: IMAX's The Dream is ... Fragmented To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.ARPA I agree with Dale from Digest #215 about the use of "good film technique" in The Dream is Alive being a detriment to the effect of Being There that IMAX can produce. I saw it on July 6th, at the Museum of Science and Industry in Los Angeles. The hold-your-breath awe that a launch always inspires in me was missing because it kept getting short-circuited by cuts away to other scenes. However, I found that I was mesmerized watching the earth pass underneath the camera, and the minute the camera passed Italy, I began anticipating Crete, so that I could see whether I could spot Thera (with which I have always been fascinated) . The cluster that's merely a dot on most maps is truly obvious for the remains of a volcanic crater that it is, from the air. I agree, Dale, I could watch the earth pass below for much longer than they give you. Marina Fournier ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #216 ******************* 18-Jul-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #217 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 217 Today's Topics: IMAX Sorry... simulated airline service ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wednesday, 17 Jul 1985 07:27-EDT From: jrv@Mitre-Bedford To: SPACE@MIT-MC Subject: IMAX > I just got back from a trip to DC and spent an afternoon in the National Air > and Space Museum. Naturaqlly, I had to see the IMAX movies we've been > hearing about for so long. I managed to see The Dream Is Alive too - and agree with the rave reviews. > Despite the detractions caused by attempts at artistry, the film is worth > seeing again and again. If you're a really hard core spacer and cry at > launches, bring some kleenex; you'll need it. If you want a good seat (near the middle of the theatre, NOT near one edge of the screen) I think the way to do it is to buy tickets for two consecutive presentations and move to the center between the two. (I've forgotten how the schedule runs - you might have to sit through flights through the Grand Canyon in order to get a good seat for the shuttle flight.) - Jim Van Zandt ------------------------------ Date: Wed 17 Jul 85 18:14:34-EDT From: James J. Hagen Jr. Subject: Sorry... To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA To all the flamers that have sent back hundreds of copies of my message to me, I am sorry. It was quite late, and I replied to the wrong message nunber in MM. It is an easy mistake to make. And with the over efficiency of TOPS-20 I didn't have a chance to hack it from the quee before it went on its way. Again sorry all. ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 17 Jul 85 07:50:26 PDT To: crash!noscvax!space@mit-mc Subject: simulated airline service NASA will begin a series of simulated airline flights to operationally test new techniques designed to help smooth the air flow over aircraft wings. * Previously reseach has shown that smooth or laminar air flow can reduce aerodynamic drag from 25 to 40 percent under laboratory conditions and could provide significant fuel savings. However, in actual flight, laminar flow can be disrupted and distributed by insects, ice and other obstructions adhering to the leading edges of an aircraft's wing. * NASA Ames-Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, Calif. has installed on its business sized JetStar aircraft two experimental laminar flow control devices incorporating techniques to help prevent leading edge contamination. * The simulated airline service flights will be flown in widely separated areas of the U.S. to experience a wide variety of contaminant conditions. * The JetStar will be based at various NASA installations and at commercial airports and will fly in and out of different airports to obtain information on various takeoff and landing situations that might affect the test articles. NASA will conduct the simulated airline service flights just as an airline would under normal air traffic rules and regulations. * While based at the different airports to obtain information on various takeoff and landing situations that might effect the test articles. NASA will conduct the simulated airline service flights just as an airline would under normal air traffic rules and regulations. * While based at the different installations throughout the country, researchers plan up to four flights each day during a 2-week period to gather as much information as possible on performance of the test articles. * The two leading edge test articles, one installed on each wing of the JetStar, incorporate insect and ice protection with laminar flow control. Tests conducted on the JetStar in 1976 showed that the leading edge could be kept free of insects if it was kept wet while encountering them. * The test article installed on the left wing uses suction through 27 0.003 inch spanwise slots on the upper and lower surface to maintain laminar flow. A propylene glycol methyl ether (PGME)/ water mixture is discharged through several slots at the wing leading edge and flows back over the wing for insect impact protection. This article was manufactured for NASA by Lockheed-Georgia. * The test article on the right wing uses suction through approximately 1 million 0.0025 inch diameter holes in the titanium skin to maintain laminar flow on the upper surface of the article. For insect impact protection, a shield is extended much like a wing leading edge flap on commercial transports. The shield is retracted at 6,000 feet altitude. Spray nozzles behind the shield can be used to spray the PGME/water mixture on the test article for additional protection. * For ice prevention during winter conditions, glycol is forced through the right wing's porous metal section of the shield leading edge in additon to the PGME/water spray. This article was manufactured for NASA by McDonnell-Douglas. * Since the simulated airline service flights are planned to approximate commercial flights as closely as possible, NASA officials are meeting with commercial airline officials to define what test conditions they would like to see flown and will incorporate the results of these discussions into flight planning. Researchers also are contacting entomologists in areas of the country that the JetStar will fly to determine the insect activity in each area. * The JetStar is configured as a "flying control room" with test instrumentation aboard. There are three consoles with data displays for researchers, who also have the ability to adjust the suction on the test articles if conditions warrant. * The JetStar will carry the Knollenberg probe, mounted atop the aircraft, to precisely measure the number and size of ice and water particles encountered in flight. A charge patch, located on the pylon that holds the probe, measures the static electric charge caused by particles in the air rubbing across the patch surface and gives a qualitative measure of ice and water particles. Correlation of the probe and patch data could calibrate the charge measurements in a simple cockpit display. Pilots could use the display to detect ice particles. * The first series of operational flights is presently scheduled for mid July. The JetStar will fly in and out of Hartsfield Airport, Atlanta, Ga. * The program is a cooperative effort with NASA's Langley Research Center. * From Debra J. Rahn Headquarters, Washington, D.C. and Nancy Lovato Ames Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, Calif. * ----------------------------------------------------------------- correction -> a recent posting on the net concerning proposals for Commercial Development of Space was from Northeastern in Boston not Northwestern which is in Chicago. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #217 ******************* 20-Jul-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #218 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 218 Today's Topics: Launch Rescheduled Re: VIP Shuttle Passes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!gymble!lll-crg!dual!qantel!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Launch Rescheduled Date: 15 Jul 85 20:59:37 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill Workers today replaced the faulty valve in the Challenger's Number 2 Engine and rescheduled its launch for 1500 EDT, 29 July. That could be changed by two days either way. The change in schedule maintains a 24 August launch date for the Discovery but pushes a test firing of Atlantis' main engines from 30 July to 12 September. Atlantis' maiden launch, originally scheduled for 19 September now slips to late September or early October. Challenger's 30 October launch was moved to early November, but the 27 November Atlantis and 20 December Columbia flights are preserved. If the problem with Challenger turns out to be more severe than the one suspected, its mission may be delayed until next year; as a purely scientific flight, it has lower priority than commericial and DoD flights. A second launch pad, 39B, will become available at KSC in January, helping NASA to meet its tight schedule. Also next year will be the first launch from VAFB, scheduled for March; the Discovery is expected to be assigned there permanently. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!daemon!tektools!pyramid!jeffg From: pyramid!jeffg (Jeff Glover) Subject: Re: VIP Shuttle Passes Date: 15 Jul 85 03:54:40 GMT Reply-To: jeffg@pyramid.UUCP (Jeff Glover) Followup-To: net.columbia Organization: Tektronix, Beaverton OR Summary: wrong information!!! In article <112@cpsc53a.UUCP> dta@cpsc53a.UUCP (Doug Anderson) writes: > Subject: VIP Shuttle Passes. > > NASA has provided an address to write to to get VIP passes for > future shuttle launches. These passes allow the holder to take one > (1) vehicle on to Merritt Island (the place you see all the TV > footage from during the launches). You can pile as many people in > the vehicle as you wish. 1. The pass mentioned is not called a VIP pass. I forget it's real name, but the VIP pass is entirely different and is *OFFERED*, not requested. The TV footage is from the VIP area, not the pass area. > The sight is about 1.5 miles from the shuttle launch pad and you get > GREAT viewing!! 2. The site for the pass mentioned is about 5 miles due south of the launch pad; I think even the blockhouse (Is that what it is called these days?) is 3 miles away! > While I've never requested a pass for a particular launch they seem > to try to get you one for the next launch available so if your > comming down to Florida you may just want to try and get a pass. 3. I've been to that location twice; both times on someone else's pass. They seemed to have waited forever for them. -- Jeff C. Glover, Tektronix, Inc. PO Box 500, MS Y6-546, Beaverton, OR 97077 { decvax, allegra, hplabs, ihnp4 } tektronix!tekcbi!jeffg ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #218 ******************* 22-Jul-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #219 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 219 Today's Topics: NASA "GAS" Net space whoopee and whoops... Planning a new bboard... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: crash!bryan@SDCSVAX Date: Sun, 21 Jul 85 08:31:53 PDT To: space@mit-mc Subject: NASA "GAS" Net I was able to get through to NASA'S "GAS" net at 301/344-9156. There realy isn't much interesting (from my point of view) but there was some interesting shuttle news. Sorry about the all caps, but that's the way it came. *** SPACE SHUTTLE NEWS *** JULY 18, 1985 *** WORK IS CONTINUING TO PROCEDE SMOOTHLY AND ON TARGET TO READY CHALLENGER FOR ANOTHER LAUNCH ATTEMPT NEAR THE END OF THIS MONTH. MAIN ENGINE TURNAROUND WORK IS PROGRESSING WELL AND NO FURTHER ABORT TROUBLE SHOOTING IS PLANNED ON THE VEHICLE ITSELF. ENGINEERING EVALUATION OF THE HARDWARE COMPONENTS THAT HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM CHALLENGER BECAUSE THEY COULD HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN THE ABORT IS CONTINUING WITHOUT ANY SPECIFIC ROOT CAUSE HAVING BEEN IDENTIFIED THUS FAR. THE LAUNCH PAD WAS CLEARED LAST NIGHT FOR ORDINANCE CONNECTIONS. THE ORDINANCE WILL BE HOOKED BACK UP PRIOR TO ENTERING ANOTHER LAUNCH COUNTDOWN. MEANWHILE, ORBITER ATLANTIS WAS MOVED INTO HIGH BAY 2 OF THE VEHICLE ASSEMBLY BUILDING (VAB) THIS MORNING. ATLANTIS WILL REMAIN IN THE VAB UNTIL DISCOVERY IS ROLLED OUT FOR MATING WITH ITS EXTERNAL PROPELLANT TANK AND SET OF BOOSTER ROCKETS AROUND AUGUST 1. POWER ON TESTING OF DISCOVERY TO PREPARE FOR THE PLANNED AUGUST 24TH LAUNCH OF MISSION 51-I IS CONTINUING. ENGINE PROCESSING IS IN WORK ALONG WITH TODAY'S PLANNED SERVICING OF THE POTTABLE WATER AND AMMONIUM SYSTEMS. ORBITER COLUMBIA WILL BE MOVED OVER TO THE PROCESSING HANGER VACATED BY ATLANTIS, AFTER WORKERS HAVE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO REVALIDATE SOME OF THE HANGER EQUIPMENT. COLUMBIA IS PRESENTLY IN TEH VAB TRANSFER AISLE. ITS MOVE COULD COME AS EARLY AS THIS AFTERNOON AT ABOUT 6 PM OR NOT UNTIL TOMORROW MORNING, DEPENDING ON THE WEATHER AND THE READINESS OF THE BAY TO RECEIVE IT. Bryan R. Walker crash!bryan@ucsd {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax}!crash!bryan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jul 85 10:09:29 EDT From: smith@UDel-Dewey.ARPA To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: space whoopee and whoops... It seems to me that Steve Kallis is quite right about conceiving in space -- it isn't a very gravity assisted event. What about delivery though? The actual "labor" is aptly named since it is a muscular event, but what about the (necessary) time when the baby "drops". I'm neither biologist nor doctor enough to rate even an opinion about this, but it seems that it COULD involve gravity. Does anyone who knows any more about this have any ideas? art smith (smith@udel-dewey.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jul 85 14:10:38 EDT From: Smith@UDel-Dewey.ARPA To: arpanet-bboards@mit-mc.ARPA, info-ibmpc@uci-icsb.ARPA, human-nets@rutgers.ARPA, mailgroup@ucl-cs.ARPA, space@mit-mc.ARPA, whimsey@uci-icse.ARPA Subject: Planning a new bboard... Hi all! Forgive me for intruding on your bulletin boards.... I am interested in starting up a new bulletin board for those people who are participating in, or are interested in participating in a community band (as in wind ensemble). There seems to be a real upsurge of them in the Delaware Valley, and maybe it is more widespread than that. I am hoping that we can exchange ideas and comments on good and bad arrangements, fund raising ideas, organizational problems, etc. If you are interested in seeing something like this, please send me mail -- if I don't hear from enough people this bulletin board will never be! I am: (ARPANET): smith@UDel-dewey.ARPA (CSNET): smith@UDel-dewey@csnet-relay (UUCP): ...!harvard!smith@udel-dewey -art smith ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #219 ******************* 23-Jul-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #220 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 220 Today's Topics: space delivery Re: Birth in Space Pregnancy and birth in microgravity ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Jul 85 19:11:15 EDT From: Walter.Smith@cmu-cs-wb1 Subject: space delivery To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A In one of Heinlein's books, the woman is positioned along the ship's main axis in a comfortable chair, and at the appropriate moment the pilot, who is also the midwife, fires the engines for a second or so using a convenient footswitch. Heinlein, at least, seems to think a rocket motor is a great help to delivery. - Walter Smith wrs@cmu-cs-wb1.arpa [soon to be wb1.cs.cmu.edu] ...!seismo!cmu-cs-k!wrs ------------------------------ From: Laurinda Rohn Date: 22 Jul 85 17:05:18 PDT (Mon) To: Space-Enthusiasts@mit-mc Cc: rohn@rand-unix Subject: Re: Birth in Space I'm neither a doctor nor a mother, but I'll comment anyway! :-) From what I'm told about normal delivery procedures, birth in zero gee probably wouldn't be too much more difficult than it is currently. Births are usually performed with the mother on the delivery table in a horizontal position. This doesn't allow gravity to help much at all. (As a side note, doctors are [finally!] beginning to realize that if they position the mother somewhat more vertically, gravity does help as labor is somewhat less difficult and shorter.) Lauri rohn@rand-unix.ARPA ..decvax!randvax!rohn "I told you when I met you I was crazy..." ------------------------------ Return-path: SWB%CORNELLA.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA Date: Mon, 22 Jul 85 23:47 EDT From: Scott Brim Subject: Pregnancy and birth in microgravity To: Birth itself will not be a problem. Babies are squeezed out, they don't fall out, although gravity can be used as a handy tool. The problem will be getting the baby into position for birth. The "drop" that takes place (usually days) before labor begins sets up the baby for the birth. Long before that, I'm sure gravity is involved in making sure most babies are oriented head downward and facing backward, the safest and easiest position. There are exercises prescribed to mothers whose babies are in "breach" position, but I'm pretty sure the traditional ones also depend on gravity for their (limited) effectiveness. Hmmm. I can see we have a lot of experimentation ahead. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #220 ******************* 24-Jul-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #221 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 221 Today's Topics: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #220 information on star and earth maps Space Delivery ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Jul 85 9:06:55 EDT From: Jeffrey Allred (RAMD-STU) To: Space-Enthusiasts@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #220 Please delete me from the mailing list. Thank you Jeff Allred allred@amsaa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 85 13:35:20 PDT From: Lt. Bill Fish To: space@mit-mc Subject: information on star and earth maps Does aanyone know oof any star or earth maps avaiable on the arpanet. Thanks in advance Bill ------------------------------ Date: 24 JUL 1985 0052 EDT From: BRUC at MIT-MC.ARPA (Robert E. Bruccoleri) Subject: Space Delivery To: SPACE-ENTHUSIASTS at MIT-MC.ARPA After having helped my wife with the pregnancy and delivery of our two children (one is 2 months old, the other is 2 years old), I found the remarks about pregnancy and birth in zero-G amusing to say the least. There are some misconceptions here. First, Scott Brim is correct about how babies are born; they are squeezed out. The longest phase of labor is nothing more than the uterus contracting with great force at short intervals (every few minutes) using the baby to dilate the cervix to a size large enough to let the baby out (about 4 inches!). The influence of gravity in this process is subtle in that the blood vessels to the uterus are located in the back, so that the weight of the uterus restricts the blood flow when the mother is on her back, and the uterus will not contract so forcefully (and painfully, as it happens) If she stands or merely turns to her side, then the contractions get stronger. In zero-G, this blood flow restriction will not occur, so labor will probably proceed more quickly. Second, during the actual birth, our doctor had my wife ease off pushing when the maximum width of the baby's was emerging. He did this in order to reduce the likelyhood of a tear. A gravity assist at this juncture would not have been appreciated. Third, the process of getting the baby oriented properly appears to be one of fit between the baby's head and the pelvis of the mother, since head down makes optimum use of the abdominal space. With our second child, he kept switching between head down and sideways, although towards the end, he began to spend most of his time sideways. He was moved into the head down position by externally pushing on his head while taking care that his umbilical cord was not getting wrapped about his neck. During the last two weeks in utero, he stayed head down. My wife did notice that he would shift upward a little when she laid down, so gravity does play some role here. An ultrasound imager will definitely be helpful for delivery in space. One final thought: delivery is mighty messy, and a little gravity would help a lot in keeping liquid matter from getting all over the place. Bob Bruccoleri ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #221 ******************* 25-Jul-85 0358 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #222 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 222 Today's Topics: Re: space whoopee and whoops... Re: Angular Momentum Cancelation Re: Space Whoopee Re: Space Whoopee Experiment Computer Fails Re: Space Whoopee Re: Angular Momentum Cancelation Re: IMAX Release Schedule Answer to: What do you call the "blockhouse" now? Re: Voyager, on to Uranus. Launches NASA Activities, v16, n6, June 1985 Would a candle burn ... RE: Space Whoopee Re: Angular Momentum Cancelation Re: Voyager, on to Uranus. Re: Voyager, on to Uranus. Columbia's Tiled Damaged by Rain Re: Angular Momentum Cancelation Re: VIP Shuttle Passes - support for correction article Re: Orphaned Response Re: VIP Shuttle Passes Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Re: space whoopee and whoops... Teacher Selected Re: IMAX theatres Re: VIP Shuttle Passes - support for correction article Re: Voyager, on to Uranus. Re: Would a candle burn ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!elsie!sck From: elsie!sck (Steve Kaufman) Subject: Re: space whoopee and whoops... Date: 23 Jul 85 18:35:31 GMT Organization: NIH-LEC, Bethesda, MD Summary: forceps are used in only a minority of births In article <10626@rochester.UUCP>, nemo@rochester.UUCP (Wolfe) writes: > It should be called "push/pull" these days. The woman is flat on her back > and the baby is pulled out (forceps!) once she pushes it far enough. > As I imagine "nemo" already knows, forceps are used in only a minority of births. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!dma From: ssc-vax!dma (Dennis Anderson) Subject: Re: Angular Momentum Cancelation Date: 22 Jul 85 14:15:01 GMT Organization: Boeing Aerospace Co., Seattle, WA > > There is a Soviet helicopter. Its NATO designation is HORMONE (don't ask > me why) which has two counter-rotating sets of blades and no tail rotor. > > I do not know of any american helicopters that use this principle. > > Apostolos Dollas > USENET: ...!{pur-ee,ihnp4}!uiucdcs!dollas > ARPA: dollas@uiuc.arpa The Boeing/Vertol CH-47 also has counter-rotating rotors, and no tail rotor. Dennis Anderson @ Boeing Aerospace ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!timeinc!greenber From: timeinc!greenber (Ross M. Greenberg) Subject: Re: Space Whoopee Date: 22 Jul 85 18:01:20 GMT Reply-To: greenber@timeinc.UUCP (Ross M. Greenberg) Organization: Time, Inc. - New York Doesn't the idea of intimate relations somehow tie in with the idea of how you move in space with no, er, reaction pistol??? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Ross M. Greenberg @ Time Inc, New York --------->{vax135 | ihnp4}!timeinc!greenber<--------- I highly doubt that Time Inc. would make me their spokesperson. ---- "I was riding a wombat this morning, 'till it broke its leg. I had to shoot it" -- Ranger on Camel ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!hplabs!qantel!ihnp4!cbosgd!clyde!watmath!utzoo!utcs!mnetor!fred From: mnetor!fred (Fred Williams) Subject: Re: Space Whoopee Date: 17 Jul 85 13:05:47 GMT Reply-To: fred@mnetor.UUCP (Fred Williams) Organization: Computer X (CANADA) Ltd., Toronto, Ontario, Canada In article <2641@mordor.UUCP> @S1-A.ARPA,@MIT-MC.ARPA:mcgeer%ucbkim@Berkeley writes: > > Quite aside from the sniggering in this matter, there's a serious >question here. Can humans conceive and reproduce in free fall? Maybe it >will never matter (the O'Neill colony will have artificial gravity) but we >still should find out. > Come now! Do you really have any doubts??? Of coarse not! We know what's going on in your mind. You want confirmation of Newton's third law!!! Cheers, Fred Williams ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Experiment Computer Fails Date: 20 Jul 85 14:46:06 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill One of three computers that controls experiments in the Challenger's cargo bay failed to activate when the experiments were turned on. NASA hopes that the remaining two computers will be adequate to go ahead with the mission, now scheduled for 29 July. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ihnp4!ih1ap!gamma From: ih1ap!gamma (tontille) Subject: Re: Space Whoopee Date: 21 Jul 85 19:13:43 GMT Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories [] I dont see any problems with positioning (a modified 'Rocking Chair' position seems reasonable), and this could lead to a small retail business providing 'Space Bondage' devices to prevent sudden undocking. Key-Man (and the Masters of Technology) ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ihnp4!cbosgd!clyde!watmath!utzoo!dciem!king From: dciem!king (Stephen King) Subject: Re: Angular Momentum Cancelation Date: 18 Jul 85 13:23:14 GMT Reply-To: king@dciem.UUCP (Stephen ) Organization: D.C.I.E.M., Toronto, Canada -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= I believe that the Soviet helicopter 'Hind' uses two counter-rotating sets of blades mounted coaxially, but, unless I'm mistaken, it also has a tail rotor for controlling yaw. Unlike film spools, however, the helicopter blades will not change in mass as the turn. -=-=-= sjk. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!ittatc!dcdwest!sdcsvax!bmcg!yrdbrd From: bmcg!yrdbrd (Larry J. Huntley) Subject: Re: IMAX Release Schedule Date: 15 Jul 85 22:34:17 GMT Reply-To: yrdbrd@bmcg.UUCP (Larry J. Huntley) Organization: Burroughs Corp. ASG, San Diego, CA. >From: Walt Lazear >The Air Force Times published a schedule of release dates for the new >IMAX film "The Dream is Alive": >October: ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!akgua!glc From: akgua!glc (G.L. Cleveland [Lindsay]) Subject: Answer to: What do you call the "blockhouse" now? Date: 20 Jul 85 19:09:53 GMT Organization: AT&T Technologies/Bell Labs, Atlanta The earlier launch pads at Cape Canaveral all had "blockhouses" which were made larger and with thicker walls as the launch vehicles got bigger. (One is not supposed to call them "Missiles" and "Rockets"...NASA only has "launch vehicles") These earlier pads were constructed in the days before digital data links were around, so all the connections between the control panels and the pad were discrete copper wires, one per signal. For gauge readings and other analog controls (potentiometers), there was always a physical limit as to how long the wire could be before the signal became unreliable. With the Apollo Project and the *huge* Saturn V launch vehicle, (much larger than the Space Shuttle), the need to move back a few miles changed the design of the pads. Now you have the crawlerway to move the entire vehicle and its launch pedestal from the assembly building out to the pad. That pedestal internally contains two floors of equipment, including a computer system which is data-linked to another computer system back at the control panel complex (what you see everyone sitting at on the TV shots of "Our dedicated and skilled technicians") To (finally) answer the question; it is called the Launch Control Center (LCC). It has windows facing the pad(s) which have steel blast shutters over them. These are closed whenever there is fuel aboard the vehicle and during launch. Those windows make it a lot less claustrophobic for the day-to-day working folks. Those older blockhouses gave you a feeling like being in "Der Fuhrers Bunker!" You had a periscope to see out with, and that was all! Another reason for the LCC is economy. Before, you would have one blockhouse per pad. With the Apollo program, it was planned to have two pads, with possible expansion to more. With data-link techniques, one LCC could be used for all the pads. You merely switch the LCC's computer hook-up to the desired pad's computer. OK trivia buffs: what kind of computers (manufacturer, operating system, etc.) do they have in the LCC and launch pedestal? Cheers, Lindsay Lindsay Cleveland (akgua!glc) (404) 447-3909 Cornet 583-3909 AT&T Technologies/Bell Laboratories ... Atlanta, Ga ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!utzoo!henry From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Voyager, on to Uranus. Date: 19 Jul 85 16:16:36 GMT Organization: U of Toronto Zoology The problem with the scan platform on Voyager 2 is particularly annoying for the Uranus encounter, because Voyager is going through the Uranus system at almost a right angle to the plane of Uranus's moons. This means a fairly brief close-encounter phase with interesting objects in several well-separated directions. One can safely predict considerable tearing of hair over the final pointing schedule, given the need to move the platform slowly if at all. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!dual!ames!eugene From: ames!eugene (Eugene Miya) Subject: Launches NASA Activities, v16, n6, June 1985 Date: 22 Jul 85 20:33:07 GMT Organization: NASA-Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA Expendable Launches Date Mission Lunch vehicle Launch site Remarks 2nd Qtr AF-16 Scout WFF USAF 2nd Qtr Navy-22 Scout WSMC USN 2nd Qtr Navy-23 Scout WSMC USN August Intelsat VA-D Atlas Centaur WSMC Intelsat comm August NOAA-G Atlas WSMC NOAA 3rd Qtr AF-17 Scout WFF USAF October GOES-G Delta ESMC NOAA 4th Qtr San Marco Scout SMR NASA/Italy WSMC-Vandenberg, ESMC - Florida, WFF -Wallops, SMR - San Marcos Is. Indian Oc. Shuttle Launches: Mission Date/Orbiter Payloads Crew (leaving off) 51-F 7/12/85, Challenger Spacelab 2 51-I 8/10/85, Discovery Syncom IV-4 ASC-1 MSL-1 Aussat-1 CFES 51-J 9/26/85, Atlantis DOD 61-A 10/16/85, Columbia Spacelab D-1 61-B 11/8/85, Challenger Morelos-B Satcom KU-1 Aussat-2 EOS-1 61-C 12/20/85, Columbia MSL-3 HS-376 Satcom KU-2 EASE/ACCESS ------------ NOTE: I have been put under a certain amount of pressure to limit communications about certain "sensitive" areas of technology. My management is aware I read this news group due to a minor escapade two years ago. They have encouraged my participation (within limits of work). You may have seen news recently in newspapers regarding this new perspective in NASA. Among other things, which I can no longer answer questions on: thermal protection, certain aspects of computer technology, and so forth. In the past, I have answered mail asking questions not posed before this news group. I can continue to do this within the new bounds I have been given. My personal opinion is for the free circulation of research information, but my management has growing concern about government rules regarding the flow of information to political and economic competitors to the US: namely the Soviet Union and Japan. --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,decwrl,allegra}!ames!aurora!eugene Disclaimer? Oh well! ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!gml From: ssc-vax!gml (Gregory M Lobdell) Subject: Would a candle burn ... Date: 18 Jul 85 20:40:23 GMT Organization: Boeing Aerospace Co., Seattle, WA ... in space? This question came up the other day in discussion. We seemed to think that there would be problems because in the absence of a gravity field the heated air would not rise. Thus CO2 would not be pulled away from the area of burning and O2 would not be pulled in. Therefore combustion would not be continuous. What do you all think. Have there been any experiments in this area. I can see how NASA would be leary of any such experiment. A fire in space would be worse than a fire on a sailing vessel. However, if the above hypothisis is correct, such a fire would never happen. And if there was a fire, where would you point the fire extiguister? Wanting to go for a ride on the Shuttle! Gregg Lobdell Boeing Aerospace {I only work for them and their opinions aren't mine} ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!gymble!lll-crg!dual!ucbvax!decvax!tektronix!paulh From: tektronix!paulh (Paul Hoefling) Subject: RE: Space Whoopee Date: 19 Jul 85 22:34:49 GMT Organization: Tektronix, Beaverton OR >> ... NASA is planning for experiments involving intimate relations on board >> the future space station with married couples ... >> >> Question: How do you avoid moving from a stationary point in space while >> having intimate relations. From Eros Rising (Volume I of Tales of The Velvet Comet) by Mike Resnick: "Never try to make love in free fall; you can strain everything you've got!" -- Paul Hoefling Information Pack Rat uucp: {allegra,decvax,ihnp4,ucbvax,zehntel}!tektronix!paulh ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!decwrl!spar!freeman From: spar!freeman (Jay Freeman) Subject: Re: Angular Momentum Cancelation Date: 21 Jul 85 00:53:05 GMT Reply-To: freeman@max.UUCP (Jay Freeman) Organization: Schlumberger Palo Alto Research, CA [] In article <15700023@uiucdcsb> dollas@uiucdcsb.Uiuc.ARPA writes: > >There is a Soviet helicopter. Its NATO designation is HORMONE (don't ask >me why) which has two counter-rotating sets of blades and no tail rotor. > >I do not know of any american helicopters that use this principle. An American manufacturer -- I think it was Kaman -- used to make some helicopters that used contrarotating blades that meshed like the blades of an eggbeater. The Navy bought some of them. -- Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research)(canonical disclaimer) ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!utzoo!henry From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Voyager, on to Uranus. Date: 19 Jul 85 16:12:15 GMT Organization: U of Toronto Zoology There is one such uncertainty, associated with the 1989 Neptune encounter rather than the Uranus encounter: nobody knows whether Neptune has rings or not. There is some evidence that it might. The trajectory tentatively planned for the Neptune encounter may have to be revised, because if the ring reports are true, the trajectory takes Voyager straight into them. Going to a more conservative trajectory would be a pity, because the Neptune encounter (unlike the Uranus one) is not constrained by the need to reach the next planet, and the planned path includes a very close flyby of Triton. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!mtuxo!drutx!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Re: Voyager, on to Uranus. Date: 18 Jul 85 14:15:43 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill On the subject of Voyager 2's condition, there are two major systems with problems. One is the main receiver. It doesn't work at all. The backup does work but has problems locking on to Earth-based signals in certain temperature ranges; JPL people in charge, though, say they have worked away around this and that it shouldn't pose a problem. The other problem is that, during the passby of Saturn, some damage was sustained in the mechanisms that move the camera platform, causing it to stick at times. Again, JPL said that there should be no problem with this as the platform seems to move just fine if moved slowly. Also, they have learned how to point the cameras by rotating the entire spacecraft. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Columbia's Tiled Damaged by Rain Date: 18 Jul 85 23:54:14 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill The tiles of the shuttle Columbia were damaged when the ship fly through a 30-second rainstorm atop a Boeing 747 en route to KSC, NASA said today. Initial estimates said that a few hundred would have to be replaced, and a couple thousand would need new outer coating. The Columbia, temporarily housed in the VAB, will be moved to the OPF tomorrow. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!gymble!lll-crg!dual!qantel!ihnp4!inuxc!pur-ee!uiucdcsb!seefromline From: dollas%uiucdcsb@Uiuc.ARPA Subject: Re: Angular Momentum Cancelation Date: 16 Jul 85 13:48:00 GMT There is a Soviet helicopter. Its NATO designation is HORMONE (don't ask me why) which has two counter-rotating sets of blades and no tail rotor. I do not know of any american helicopters that use this principle. Apostolos Dollas USENET: ...!{pur-ee,ihnp4}!uiucdcs!dollas ARPA: dollas@uiuc.arpa ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!decwrl!sun!idi!burl!rcj From: burl!rcj (Curtis Jackson) Subject: Re: VIP Shuttle Passes - support for correction article Date: 19 Jul 85 14:14:44 GMT Reply-To: rcj@burl.UUCP (Curtis Jackson) Organization: AT&T Technologies, Burlington NC Keywords: right info given The correction article recently posted was correct enough for govt. work :-) "VIP passes are offered, not requested." Requests for VIP passes can be made if you have a decent postion working on/with the shuttle -- my father got VIP passes for several launches when he was head of safety for United Space Boosters, Inc. Vandenburg operations; he got them by asking for them. These passes allow you to get to the closest area for civilians which is, as was noted in the correction, approximately 3 miles away. The passes that the general public can request are approximately 5 miles away, as noted in the correction article. I do not have reliable info as to the availability or waiting list length for these general passes. -- The MAD Programmer -- 919-228-3313 (Cornet 291) alias: Curtis Jackson ...![ ihnp4 ulysses cbosgd mgnetp ]!burl!rcj ...![ ihnp4 cbosgd akgua masscomp ]!clyde!rcj ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!petsd!pesnta!hplabs!hp-pcd!hpfcmt!ron From: hpfcmt!ron (ron) Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 18 Jul 85 00:20:00 GMT And you thought that the Shuttle program was going to provide USEFUL scientific data. But..........NO ! I hope Coke and Pepsi paid a BIG bundle of $$ for the privilege of taking the cola wars into space. This may be a bigger waste than taking "Ralph" Garns along as ballast. Ron Miller ("Has anyone tried Shuttle skywriting yet ?") {ihnp4}hpfcla!ron ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!gamma!epsilon!zeta!sabre!bellcore!petrus!karn From: petrus!karn (Phil R. Karn) Subject: Re: VIP Shuttle Passes Date: 20 Jul 85 19:53:45 GMT Organization: Bell Communications Research, Inc My own suggestion is to, if at all possible, get a PRESS pass instead of a VIP pass. This gives you access to the "bleachers" and the rest of the Pad 39 Press Site, including the press conference room, and the Press Dome, with dozens of nifty handouts for the taking. (My stack was about a foot high.) There were plenty of bus tours. One was a general tour of the rest of Cape Canaveral, while the real highlights were the three trips (daytime, sunset, RSS rollback) out to the perimeter of the pad fence. Standing just east of the pad at night as the xenon spots were turned on was quite a memorable experience; after that, the launch itself was almost anti-climactic. Press passes are given to anyone with a bona-fide role as a writer or reporter. In my case I was there with a colleague to "cover" the launch of STS-9 (the first "ham-in-space" flight) for AMSAT's magazine. Others were there from L-5, etc. Press interest in shuttle missions has waned considerably (only half the stands were filled for STS-9, and that was 1.5 years ago) so the competition isn't bad. Most of the press there were obviously hard-core space junkies, but NASA certainly didn't mind that they enjoy their "jobs". The only problem with seeing a launch in person is that there is no instant replay. Phil ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!alberta!myriasb!cg From: myriasb!cg (Chris Gray) Subject: Re: IMAX and the Shuttle flights Date: 19 Jul 85 16:22:57 GMT Organization: Myrias Research, Edmonton No one else up here seems to have mentioned it, so here goes: The Edmonton Space Sciences Center has a brand new IMAX theatre (along with some other stuff like a mockup of the Canadarm (sp?). I've seen "Hail Columbia" and "Speed" there, and I think there is a new film showing now, but I'm not sure which one it is. In the same building is our planetarium with customary laser light show. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!rochester!nemo From: rochester!nemo (Wolfe) Subject: Re: space whoopee and whoops... Date: 22 Jul 85 14:31:59 GMT Organization: U. of Rochester, CS Dept. > ... What about delivery though? The actual > "labor" is aptly named since it is a muscular event, but what about the > time when the baby "drops". ...it seems that it COULD involve gravity. > Does anyone who knows any more about this have any ideas? > art smith It should be called "push/pull" these days. The woman is flat on her back and the baby is pulled out (forceps!) once she pushes it far enough. I would expect the amniotic fluid and other mess of that nature to be more of a problem in a zero-g environment. Perhaps a steady air flow drawing escaped fluids into a trap would be suitable. Sometimes the neonate has some fluid in the lungs that must be drained (hence the holding upside down bit). Perhaps a large, slow centrifuge could do the trick here ("No no! I said 8 rpm, not 80!"). Nemo -- Internet: nemo@rochester.arpa UUCP: {decvax, allegra, seismo, cmcl2}!rochester!nemo Phone: [USA] (716) 275-5766 work, 232-4690 home USMail: 104 Tremont Circle; Rochester, NY 14608 School: Department of Computer Science; University of Rochester; Rochester, NY 14627 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxm!sftig!sftri!sfmag!eagle!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Teacher Selected Date: 19 Jul 85 23:37:41 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill VIce President Bush today announced that Sharon Christa McAuliffe from Concord High School, Concord, NH, would fly aboard the January, 1986, mission of the shuttle Challenger. The backup selection was Barbara R. Morgan of McCall Connelly Elementary School, McCall, Idaho. Filling in for Mrs. McAuliffe on her first day out of class will be education secretary William J. Bennett. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!tektronix!hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!sdcc3!sdcc6!loral!pavo From: loral!pavo (Repo Man) Subject: Re: IMAX theatres Date: 18 Jul 85 14:22:28 GMT Reply-To: pavo@loral.UUCP (Repo Man) Organization: Edge City Rumor Control Keywords: IMAXed out, net.imax.theatres, remember space shuttles I guess we now know where all the IMAX theatres are in North America. Can we get back to discussing the shuttle now? ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Re: VIP Shuttle Passes - support for correction article Date: 20 Jul 85 14:49:00 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill You can also write to your Senator and request them. This is the most common way of doing it if you don't have other connections. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!dual!ames!eugene From: ames!eugene (Eugene Miya) Subject: Re: Voyager, on to Uranus. Date: 22 Jul 85 20:02:03 GMT Organization: NASA-Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA > There is one such uncertainty, associated with the 1989 Neptune encounter > rather than the Uranus encounter: nobody knows whether Neptune has rings > or not. There is some evidence that it might. The trajectory tentatively > planned for the Neptune encounter may have to be revised, because if the > ring reports are true, the trajectory takes Voyager straight into them. > > Going to a more conservative trajectory would be a pity, because the Neptune > encounter (unlike the Uranus one) is not constrained by the need to reach > the next planet, and the planned path includes a very close flyby of Triton. > -- > Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology > {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry There are many uncertainies. Most are not visible to the naked eye: radiation belts, large magnetic anomalies from satellites, gravitational anomalies, intermediate swarms of astroids at a distance we cannot detect. Some experiements such as the radio astronomy experiments must take place on the lee side of the planet in order to get some idea which the upper atmospheres are like. Too bad the original Grand Tour mission was not approved. --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,decwrl,allegra}!ames!aurora!eugene @ames-vmsb.ARPA:emiya@jup.DECNET ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!prls!amdimage!amdcad!amd!pesnta!lsuc!utcs!utzoo!utcsri!randy From: utcsri!randy (Randall S. Becker) Subject: Re: Would a candle burn ... Date: 21 Jul 85 18:30:25 GMT Organization: CSRI, University of Toronto > ... in space? > > This question came up the other day in discussion. We seemed to think > that there would be problems because in the absence of a gravity field > the heated air would not rise. Thus CO2 would not be pulled away from > the area of burning and O2 would not be pulled in. Therefore > combustion would not be continuous. Actually, I would suspect that this would depend on the diffusion rate of CO2 in the ambient atmosphere. If CO2 would diffuse at a high enough rate then (assume the presence of O2) the candle should continue to burn at an ever decreasing rate. Forgive me if this sounds rediculous. It's been a while since I've taken any chemistry. Randy -- Randall S. Becker Usenet: ..!utcsri!randy CSNET: randy@toronto ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #222 ******************* 26-Jul-85 0351 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #223 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 223 Today's Topics: Antennae for amateur operations on the shuttle Re: Would a candle burn ... Tropics Re: a burning question Re: Nuclear Rockets Re: Space Whoopee Re: VIP Shuttle Passes George Orwell quote Re: Would a candle burn ... Counterrotating Helicopters ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Jul 85 9:42:22 CDT From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI To: Space@Mit-Mc.arpa, info-hams@Simtel20.arpa Subject: Antennae for amateur operations on the shuttle Does someone out there know what the antenna setup is for the anateur radio operations on the space shuttle? Do the hams on board disconnect some mission radio equipment from external antennae and connect their ham gear during the scheduled times of operation? Or are there extra antennae installed, either mission spares or specially-set-up for the amateur radio operations, that are used? Or are no external antennae needed? (That is, is the shuttle made of enough composite and/or non- metallic components that it is not a "Faraday cage" that would restrict the RF radiation from passing through?) I looked at at least one ham-radio magazine article on the subject, but found no technical details like this, which surprised me. Have there been QST or CQ articles covering ham radio on the shuttle with a lot of technical details? (Those are the only two ham mags that I can get to back issues of...) Thanks for any info! Regards, ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!rochester!cmu-cs-pt!cadre!psuvax1!burdvax!sjuvax!tmoody From: sjuvax!tmoody (T. Moody) Subject: Re: Would a candle burn ... Date: 24 Jul 85 05:05:20 GMT Organization: St. Joseph's University, Phila. PA. > ... in space? > > This question came up the other day in discussion. We seemed to think > that there would be problems because in the absence of a gravity field > the heated air would not rise. Thus CO2 would not be pulled away from > the area of burning and O2 would not be pulled in. Therefore > combustion would not be continuous. > > What do you all think. Have there been any experiments in this area. > I can see how NASA would be leary of any such experiment. A fire in > space would be worse than a fire on a sailing vessel. However, if the > above hypothisis is correct, such a fire would never happen. And if > there was a fire, where would you point the fire extiguister? > > Wanting to go for a ride on the Shuttle! > Gregg Lobdell > Boeing Aerospace {I only work for them and their opinions aren't mine} As to whether a candle would burn in null-g: Seems to me that the kinetic energy of combustion would take care of expelling the CO2. As for the oxygen supply, I suspect that's done by atmospheric pressure, not gravity, anyway. It would *look* different, though. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 85 10:19 EDT From: Houser@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Tropics To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA A book I was reading recently mentioned that over time the angle of the plane of the ecliptic changes. The consequence is that the latitude of the tropics also move. While this makes sense, the book also stated that there is no formula which describes the motion over time. Is this really true? The context was that certain archeological sites are solstice oriented and could be accurately dated if it was known in what year a Tropic was at X latitude. Just curious. jim@tycho ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jul 85 10:01:00 PDT From: Emilio Calius Subject: Re: a burning question To: "space%mit-mc" Reply-To: Emilio Calius Any 0-g system containing a combustible atmosphere is likely to be a manned system. Therefore there should be some air currents caused by the air conditioning system, the movement of bodies, etc. Wouldn't that contribute to sustaining the combustion? Also, in present-day vehicles, you don't really get 0g due to the movement of masses and the firing of thrusters. In a lived-in environment there should be scraps of combustible material(paper) floating around which could propagate the fire. I'd feel nervous if I were going up in the Shuttle and another crew- member insisted in bringing a book of matches and/or a lighter. Emilio P. Calius Aero/Astro, Stanford U. ------ ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!teklds!dadla!jamesp From: dadla!jamesp (Jim Perkins) Subject: Re: Nuclear Rockets Date: 23 Jul 85 15:44:20 GMT Reply-To: jamesp@dadla.UUCP (Jim Perkins) Organization: Tektronix, Beaverton OR In article <939@teddy.UUCP> rdp@teddy.UUCP (Richard D. Pierce) writes: >In article <1839@mordor.UUCP> @S1-A.ARPA,@MIT-MC:jheimann@bbnccy writes: >>From: John H. Heimann >> >> >> Back in the 'sixties, there were a number of programs (funded, I think, >>by NASA and what was then AEC) to develop nuclear powered space propulsion >>schemes.... > >The use of nuclear propulsion tended (in the case of the non-explosive >technique) to result in extremely high exhaust velocities and very high >efficiencies, but extremely low thrusts. I recall hearing of thrusts in the >neighborhood of ounces! Such propulsion methods are useful when you can >tolerate long durations of firings (months or years) and do not need >tremendous accelerations. For near-earth and earth-moon manned missions, and >the like, what was needed was lots of thrust over short periods of time, the >kinf of things chemical rockets are good at. Quite true. I believe you are talking about some sort of nuclear/ion engine... wasn't there some type that used a hot reactor to heat, say, hydrogen gas that produced respectible thrust? The method as I understood it had a an inner and an outer fissile cylinder, and the reaction mass was passed between them, heated, and expelled to the exterior. Other methods used gaseous(?) fissile materials, and used a helical mixing method and centrifugal reaction chambers where the fissioning gas was concentrated on the exterior of the reaction chamber. All these methods were of course theoretical. I wonder how much research has been done on these and what the results were... =============================================================================== | James T. Perkins | uucp: ...!decvax!tektronix!dadla!jamesp | "Roads?! Where | \ | / | \@_ (snail): 4635 SW Hillside Dr. | we're going we | -- O -- | Portland, OR 97221 | don't NEED | / | \ | Bell: (503)292-4614 | roads..." =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ihnp4!mgnetp!we53!busch!wucs!wuphys!mff From: wuphys!mff (Swamp Thing) Subject: Re: Space Whoopee Date: 22 Jul 85 17:52:29 GMT Reply-To: mff@wuphys.UUCP (Swamp Thing) Organization: Physics Dept., Washington Univ. in St. Louis In article <1337@mnetor.UUCP> fred@mnetor.UUCP (Fred Williams) writes: >In article <2641@mordor.UUCP> @S1-A.ARPA,@MIT-MC.ARPA:mcgeer%ucbkim@Berkeley writes: >> >> Quite aside from the sniggering in this matter, there's a serious >>question here. Can humans conceive and reproduce in free fall? >> > Come now! Do you really have any doubts??? > Of coarse not! We know what's going on in your mind. > You want confirmation of Newton's third law!!! > >Cheers, Fred Williams I know it sounds silly, but, all seriousness aside, did you ever hear of rubber-bands? A couple of these, strategically located, could do wonders. Mark F. Flynn Department of Physics Washington University St. Louis, MO 63130 ihnp4!wuphys!mff "There is no dark side of the moon, really. Matter of fact, it's all dark." P. Floyd ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!ittatc!dcdwest!sdcsvax!bmcg!stanley From: bmcg!stanley (Stanley S. Acton) Subject: Re: VIP Shuttle Passes Date: 23 Jul 85 20:52:24 GMT Organization: Burroughs Corp. ASG, San Diego, CA. > > > The sight is about 1.5 miles from the shuttle launch pad and you get > > GREAT viewing!! > > 2. The site for the pass mentioned is about 5 miles due south of the > launch pad; I think even the blockhouse (Is that what it is called > these days?) is 3 miles away! The closest you can get to a shuttle launch is about 3 miles. That is where the building with all the big dark windows next to the VAB is. If you are so lucky as to be there, i.e. family of crew, employee or someone very important, you get to stand on the roof of this place with a great view. The press section is about 500 yards from there and also has a great view, just about 4 stories lower. Then there is the Offical Guest area, I think this is the area of which a previous article spoke. It is about 4.5 miles away, and the ascent of the shuttle is somewhat blocked by the huge steam cloud produced by the firing of the mains for 6 seconds before launch. There is also a large viewing area about 5-6 miles away that is open to the general public for all launches. This may not be true for DoD launches. This area is really not all that bad, and they have all sorts of loud speakers and port-a-toilets to handle any size crowd that might show up. If I were you, I would make it a point to see one of these lift-offs from where ever. It is really amazing. -- ..!sdcsvax!bmcg!stanley Stanley S. Acton Burroughs Corporation Advanced Systems Group (619) 485-4494 ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jul 1985 03:01:53 EDT From: DOLANTP@USC-ISI.ARPA Subject: George Orwell quote To: SPACE-ENTHUSIASTS@MIT-MC.ARPA Knowing what a well-read group this is, can anyone refer me to the origin of the Orwell quote, "He who controls the present, controls the past; he who controls the past, controls the future." If you have a book, edition, and chapter, it would help my thesis a lot. Thanks much. Tom NAVAL POSTGRADUATE SCHOOL MONTEREY, CA ------- ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!prls!amdimage!amdcad!cae780!leadsv!horst From: leadsv!horst (John Selhorst) Subject: Re: Would a candle burn ... Date: 23 Jul 85 17:35:32 GMT Organization: LMSC-LEADS, Sunnyvale, Ca. Summary: I think so. What it look like? In article <1273@utcsri.UUCP>, randy@utcsri.UUCP (Randall S. Becker) writes: > > that there would be problems because in the absence of a gravity field > > the heated air would not rise. Thus CO2 would not be pulled away from > > the area of burning and O2 would not be pulled in. Therefore > > combustion would not be continuous. > > Actually, I would suspect that this would depend on the diffusion rate of > CO2 in the ambient atmosphere. If CO2 would diffuse at a high enough rate > then (assume the presence of O2) the candle should continue to burn at an > ever decreasing rate. Wouldn't the rate of decrease stabilize at some equilibrium? I want to know what a flame in zero gravity looks like. John Selhorst {(ucbvax!dual!sun) (ihnp4!qubix)}!sunncal!leadsv!horst {allegra ihnp4 dual}!fortune!amdcad!cae780!leadsv!horst ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!prls!amdimage!amdcad!cae780!ubvax!scott From: ubvax!scott (Scott Scheiman) Subject: Counterrotating Helicopters Date: 24 Jul 85 03:04:18 GMT Organization: Ungermann-Bass, Inc., Santa Clara, CA Driving to lunch today, I say one of the helicopters mentioned a couple of days ago on the net. It had two large sets of blades, one fore, one aft, clearly counterrotating, and intermeshing (one posting said "like eggbeater blades"). It had no "tail" rotor (or any vertical blades, for that matter). It was flying into Moffett Naval Air Station. Presumably U.S. manufactured, but I have no idea what kind of helicopter it is. -- "Ribbit!" Scott Scheiman (mr.scott) Industrial Networking, Inc. \ /\/@\/@\/\ ..decvax!decwrl!sun!megatest!ubvax!scott 3990 Freedom Circle _\ \ - / /_ (408) 496-0969 Santa Clara, CA 95050 ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #223 ******************* 29-Jul-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #224 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 224 Today's Topics: candle in space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Jul 85 00:28:14 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: candle in space To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A I believe some combustion experiments have been done, and seem to remember having seen a film clip. I do not remember whehter it was on Skylab or the v-comet. Since there is no gravity, only conduction and radiation are at work. Combustion products build up in a globe around the flame until it is snuffed out, but the heat is retained much longer than in gravity with the attendant high speed convection flows, so moving the object will cause it to reignite. I think if you want it to burn with a nice steady light, you'll have to supply some convective transport, possibly by using a muffin fan or one of those new piezoelectric fans. PS: A word to Eugene Miya about communications restrictions: you should give your employers a copy of an old Buffalo Springfield song, one verse of which has the following lyrics: Paranoia strikes deep, Into your life it will creep. Starts when you're always afraid, To step out of line, The man come, and take you away. Stop, children, what's that sound, Everybody look what's goin' down... For What It's Worth.... Dale Amon ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #224 ******************* 30-Jul-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #225 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 225 Today's Topics: Re: Tropics stopped shuttle engine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Jul 85 12:38:07 PDT From: mcgeer%ucbkim@Berkeley (Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s)) To: Houser@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA, space@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Re: Tropics > > A book I was reading recently mentioned that over time the >angle of the plane of the ecliptic changes. The consequence is that >the latitude of the tropics also move. While this makes sense, the >book also stated that there is no formula which describes the motion >over time. Is this really true? The context was that certain >archeological sites are solstice oriented and could be accurately >dated if it was known in what year a Tropic was at X latitude. Just >curious. > > jim@tycho > Wrongo. The phenomenon you're referring to is called the "precession of the equinox" and the values have been calculated *very* precisely. Roger Bacon first pointed out the phenomenon is the 13th Century, and showed that if the Julian calendar were not changed, then sometime in the 30th Century Easter would occur in midsummer (the rate of precession is about .75 days/century). The solution he proposed was the one adopted in the Gregorian calendar, in which Leap Years are not held in century years and are held every 400th year: so there was no leap year in 1900, there will be one in 2000, but there won't be one in any of 2100, 2200, 2300. Incidentally, the world shifted to the Gregorian calendar at varying times. The Roman Catholic world did it first, in the 16th Century -- but that was after the Schism, and so England didn't follow suit. For 200 years England's calendar trailed the European by first 9, then 10, then 11 days. England finally converted in the mid-18th Century, to riots (11 days were dropped from the calendar at the stroke of a pen). Russia converted after the Bolshevik revolution; this is why the "October revolution" was really held, by Western calendars, in November. Rick. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 85 16:07:55 pdt From: king@Kestrel (Dick King) To: space@mc Subject: stopped shuttle engine How much lower an orbit did they have to settle for than what they wanted? I don't understand why the orbit would be lowered much, because they (presumably) had as much fuel as they ever had. When an engine dies, can they extend the burn to make up the required Delta-V, or is there a limit as to how long the engines that are working are allowed to be operated? -dick ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #225 ******************* 31-Jul-85 0352 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #226 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 226 Today's Topics: Precession of the equinoxes wobbling earth Engine out = lower orbit space telescope Space shuttle abort to orbit Shuttle abort procedures question Re: SPACE Digest V5 #225, stopped shuttle engine calendar Re: calendar ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Jul 85 10:10 PDT From: FRIEDRITR%VAXJ.GATNET.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Precession of the equinoxes To: SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA I probably won't be the first or only one to point this out, but the precession of the equinoxes has NOTHING to do with the fact that only one century year out of four is a leap year. The reason the Gregorian calendar adopted this artifice is strictly due to the fact that the year is really 365.2422 days long, and not 365.25 as would be required if every fourth year were a leap year, including the century years. However, the respondent was right in saying that the precession of the equinoxes is probably the phenomenon the original questioner is referring to. I don't know how precisely this is calculated, or even how precisely it CAN be calculated, due to the complicating factors of solar and lunar gravity, as well as that of the planets, and the fact that the interior of the Earth is not a rigid solid. The precession of the equinoxes is the same precession seen in any other gyroscope, except for the above factors. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 85 10:34:39 pdt From: king@Kestrel (Dick King) To: space@mc Subject: wobbling earth > > A book I was reading recently mentioned that over time the >angle of the plane of the ecliptic changes. The consequence is that >the latitude of the tropics also move. While this makes sense, the >book also stated that there is no formula which describes the motion >over time. Is this really true? The context was that certain >archeological sites are solstice oriented and could be accurately >dated if it was known in what year a Tropic was at X latitude. Just >curious. > > jim@tycho > Wrongo. The phenomenon you're referring to is called the "precession of the equinox" and the values have been calculated *very* precisely. Roger Bacon first pointed out the phenomenon is the 13th Century, and showed that if the Julian calendar were not changed, then sometime in the 30th Century Easter would occur in midsummer (the rate of precession is about .75 days/century). The solution he proposed was the one adopted in the Gregorian calendar, in which Leap Years are not held in century years and are held every 400th year: so there was no leap year in 1900, there will be one in 2000, but there won't be one in any of 2100, 2200, 2300. wrongo. Precession of the equinoxes does indeed occur, having the effect you describe, but it would not affect archaeology. PofE describes changes in the portion of Earth's orbit that corresponds to given seasons, so different constellations would be visible in the winter night's sky in different millenia. The phenomenon referred to in the original submission also occurs; at times the axial tilt has varied from 20.6 degrees to 22. (If my figures are wrong, forgive me.) This would render obselete things like Stonehedge that can detect the first day of winter. If the axial tilt is low at the moment, the monument's first day of winter point may not be approached. If it is high, it may be exceeded (and hit twice, shortly before and after the actual solstice). -dick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 85 11:30:38 PDT From: "Niket K. Patwardhan" To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC Subject: Engine out = lower orbit Think of it this way. A rocket sitting on the pad without enough thrust to lift off can burn all its fuel without moving at all. If there was no gravity and the stalled engine didn't lose any mass at a slower speed, what you said would be true. But of course the shuttle is working against gravity when it is taking off, and the longer it takes the less far it will go on the same fuel. ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 29 Jul 85 13:04:38 PDT To: crash!noscvax!space@mit-mc Subject: space telescope The space telescope planned for launch in the near future will have two tubes on it, a red and a blue tube, according to one of the technicians on the project. This sounds like it may have something to do with red shift and blue shift. Can anyone confirm this? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 85 13:38:44 pdt From: Ross Finlayson Subject: Space shuttle abort to orbit To: space@mit-mc Dick King asks why the shuttle couldn't attain its required orbital speed simply by burning its two remaining engines longer than usual. My guess is that since the fuel that would have been burned up by the third engine is burned up more slowly than usual (now that only two engines are working), the shuttle doesn't lose weight (due to fuel burning) at the same rate as before. That is, some of the fuel gets to be lifted a little higher than before, leading to a a decrease in the shuttle's final kinetic energy. I'm sure this isn't the whole story; I'll leave it to the experts to fill in more details. Also, in this morning's paper, I read that apparently a second engine was beginning to show signs of overheating (after the first had already been shut down). This can't have been as serious, however, because apparently the crew manually shut down the backup sensor for this engine, to prevent the computers from shutting down this engine as well. Does anyone know what plans exist for aborting a shuttle launch from Vandenberg? Since the shuttles will be launched in a north-to-south direction for polar orbits (correct?), where could they land following an early abort? The only places that come to mind are the Galapagos Islands, and Easter Island, but I don't know if there are sufficiently long runways there. I'm sure NASA would rather not have the shuttle land in Antarctica! Ross. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jul 85 13:22 EDT From: (Richard Kenner) To: Subject: Shuttle abort procedures question I have a question about the programming of the Shuttle abort procedures. While listening to yesterday's ATO, I heard a "1 engine TAL" call a while after the ATO started. I assume that this meant that had a second engine failed before that point, the Shuttle would be in what is politely called a "contingency abort" situation where crew servival is problematical. My question is this: In this case, the engine was shut down due to a perceived (the last I heard they didn't know whether it was real or not) increase in temperature of the high-pressume fuel pump in Engine #1 past the red-line point. However, suppose a second engine developed the same condition prior to the "one engine TAL" call. Shutting down this second engine would now be questionable. Shutting it down would almost certainly result in crew loss while leaving it running would merely incur a probability of crew loss. The proper thing to do in this circumstance would probably be to leave the engine running until 1-engine TAL capability was reached. However, it is my understanding that the precise determination of abort capability is not done on-board but is done in MCC. Does anyone know how this case is handled? How about if two engines simultaneously had red-line problems (suppose they were in different areas) in a state where there was a 2-engine survivable abort but no 1-engine survivable abort? Does the software assess which perceived red-line is more dangerous and shut down the appropriate engine? Or are both engines lost (and hence the crew)? ------- ------------------------------ Sender: "Mark A. Randall.DlosLV"@Xerox.ARPA Date: 30 Jul 85 11:36:22 PDT (Tuesday) Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #225, stopped shuttle engine From: Randall.DlosLV@Xerox.ARPA To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.Arpa cc: Randall.DlosLV@Xerox.ARPA I understand from this mornings change of brieffing that the current orbit is 169 by 171 miles, almost circular, when it should have been eliptical and 208 miles it the high point. -mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 85 21:53:49 EDT From: Dick Koolish Subject: calendar To: space@mit-mc.arpa Precession of the equinox has nothing to do with the Gregorian calendar. The Julian calendar was shifting with respect to the seasons because the year is not an integral number of days and the Julian calendar had it wrong. The Julian calendar had leap years every four years, which gave it 365.25 days per year. This is too many, since the year is 365.2422 days long. The Gregorian reform changed the calendar so that leap years were every four years except that century years were only leap years if they were divisible by 400. This gives a calendar year of 365.2425 days. By the time the Gregorian calendar was adopted, in 1582, the calendar was 10 days fast. When put into effect on October 4th, the next day became October 15th. The Gregorian calendar was adopted in England and the colonies in 1752 and not until 1918 by Russia. The Gregorian calendar still gives a year that is too long by 26 seconds so it will be one day off in 3200 years. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 85 19:17:49 PDT From: mcgeer%ucbkim@Berkeley (Rick McGeer) To: koolish@bbncd2.ARPA, space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Re: calendar Yea. We have a leap second periodically to even out the flaws in the Gregorian calendar. Just had one this year, in fact. Rick. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #226 ******************* 01-Aug-85 0400 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #227 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 227 Today's Topics: science news conference Leap seconds Aborts from Vandenberg Shutle abort from Vandenberg obliquity of the ecliptic Challenger to Launch Monday Re: Answer to: What do you call the "blockhouse" now? Re: space delivery Re: Angular Momentum Cancelation Re: space delivery Re: George Orwell quote Re: Would a candle burn ... Re: space delivery Re: Would a candle burn ... A candle burning in Zero-G.... Re: Would a candle burn ... Re: Would a candle burn ... Re: Orphaned Response Countdown Set to Begin Re: Would a candle burn ... Re: Birth in Space Re: Would a candle burn ... Countdown Starts Re: Many Shuttle Missions Movement of the poles Re: Space shuttle abort to orbit Re: calendar ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Tue, 30 Jul 85 23:29:19 PDT To: crash!noscvax!space@mit-mc Subject: science news conference Science News Conference - Spacelab 2 Tuesday 7/30 Ron Lester: I'll start by giving you a brief status of the Spacelab systems. I'll talk briefly about each of the experiments. I'll also discuss the mission planning that we're doing for perhaps some additional time on the PDP (Note: Ejectable Plasma Diagnostic Package uses instruments on a subsatellite to study plasma processes). The Spacelab systems were activated pretty much on time. The backup computer, which is now serving as the experiment computer came up on schedule and its been performing flawlessly. We've had two drop offs of the DDU's (note: don't know what this is), we had a similar situation on Spacelab 3. The instrument pointing system, we've got it up, we have had difficulty with the optical sensing package - turning the package onto the Sun in the fineguided mode (note: The SOUP or Solar Magnetic And Velocity Field Measurement System will observe the strength, structure, and evolution of magnetic fields in the solar atmosphere and determine the relationship between these magnetic elements and other solar features). I'll tell you later about some of the trouble shooting activities associated with that. We are convinced by the fact that the Coronal Helium Experiments (Note: CHASE, the coronal helium abundance spacelab exp will accurately determine the helium abundance of the Sun) was able to, operating within the control loop of the IPS (instrument pointing system) was in fact able to acquire the Sun, and in fact, he's got data, and as a matter of fact, tommorrow morning will get some of the data that they have already obtained. With respect to the physics experiment, the optical polarimeter (Note:SOUP), we do have a problem with the pilot system. The guys are still trouble shooting it, both here (Houston) and back at Lockheed. But currently, it is not operating, it did come up and operate for some 15 minutes, but it dropped off line and to date we have not been successful with trouble shooting approaches. But the guys are working on it, the IPS is not due back up until one day 14. The Coronal Helium Exp. has been taking data, even from the degraded mode of the instruments on the system. The High Resolution Telescope (Note: HRTS Solar Ultraviolet High Resolution Telescope studies features in the Sun's outer layers; the chromosphere, the corona, and the transition zone between them) has yet to start taking data, it has completed its checkout. He did have a heater fail on it, he deactivated the system, we really don't anticipate that causing a problem once we get operational. He will be up tommorrow when we reactivate the IPS and we fully expect that he will operate. I'll discuss later some of the consequences of not being able to get the optical sensing package up and operating. We feel we can still obtain the science on the solar experiment by the use of the HRTS experiment. The ITS (?) is stowed now, so obviously has not been taking data now. PDP (Plasma Diagnosics Package) has been activated, it continually takes data .. we did fire the electron generator (Note: the PDP can be placed near vehicle surfaces to measure changes in the Shuttle's electrical charge as a generator emits an electron beam) and the plasma diagnostic people did pick up the results. On the Plasma Depletion Experiment (Note: this investigation uses the Shuttle as an active experimental probe to create artificial "holes" in the ionosphere. Ground observatories use radio and optics to study the plasma characteristics and conduct radio astronomical studies through them) we've had two successful burns, oneover Milstone, the other over Areceibo in Puerto Rico. We originally had some seven burns or so scheduled. Based on some very recent data we've got, it looks like we may be able to re-instate some of those burns. The cosmic ray experiment (Note: CRNE Elemental Compositon and Energy Spectra of Cosmic Ray Nuclei Between 50 GeV/ nucleon and several TeV/ nucleon - to study the composition of high energy cosmic rays by using a large instrument exposed to space for a considerable period of time) started taking data almost immediately and has continued to take data. It operates in somewhat of a passive mode. The X-Ray telescope (Note: XRT Hard X-Ray Imaging of Clusters of Galaxies and Other Extended X-Ray Sources - the goal of this investigation is to image and examine the X-ray emissions from clusters of galaxies in order to study the mechanisms that cause high temperature emissions and to determine the weight of galactic clusters) is up and running. And I guess he's quite happy, for the next 16 hrs. he can operate without the place and avoidance (?) being invoked which is protection between the X-Ray telescope and Instrument Pointing System when they operate simultaneously. But since IPS is in the gimbal lock, he is unrestricted and will be taking data for the next 16 hrs. The X-Ray telescope checked their drive systems. The Helium experiment (Note: Properties of Superfluid Helium in Zero Gravity - to determine the fluid and thermal properties of superfluid helium, to advance scientific understanding of superfluid and normal liquid helium, and to demonstrate the use ofsuperfluid helium as a cryogen in zero gravity). That's the experiment that just prior to launch on July 4th, we had to make a decision to de-activate a pump, it started leaking oil in the cargo bay, we would have probably lost the experiment had we launched on the 12th. So that's a plus for the delay. The Plant Growth Unit (PGU - to determinethe effect of microgravity upon the production of lignin in higher plants) which is in the middeck, it pretty much does its own thing. The crew periodically monitors temperatures and some other measurements. The vitamin B experiment and crystal growth experiment are on-going. That's pretty much the status of the experiments. With the exception of the polarimeter experiment, the team is elated with how things are going. We have also been told that we have some 1400lbs of propellant (more than we thought) and this makes asignificant differences as to what we can do. Various options are being looked at, at this time. Most like use is for one of the three originally planned fly arounds withthe PDP. This will make two fly arounds. Raising the altitude is unlikely since the amount of surplus fuel would be unlikely to contribute to the science being obtained. The experiment most effected by the altitude is the coronalhelium experiment. But he has obtained some very good data at the altitude he's working at. Obviously, we're looking at a full duration mission. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 85 07:41 PDT From: FRIEDRITR%VAXJ.GATNET.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Leap seconds To: space@mit-mc.arpa As was pointed out by someone else, the Gregorian calendar is still off by 26 seconds per year, even with the centuries-are-only-leap-years-sometimes adjustment. Leap seconds are not to "even out the flaws in the Gregorian calendar", especially since we have one only every few years (does anyone know how often, on the average?). Leap seconds keep our precise 24-hour- per-day clocks synchronized with the actual rotational period of the Earth, which exhibits slight variations. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Wed 31 Jul 85 14:37:05-EDT From: Thomas.Finholt@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Aborts from Vandenberg To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA NASA and the US just concluded an agreement with the Chilean government to upgrade the airstrip on Easter Island for use as an emergency landing site for west coast shuttle launches. For those who read Analog, this is an interesting case of life following fiction. There was a nonovel serialized in that magazine called "Shuttle Down" depiciting the various bureaucratic and diplomatic hassles involved with retrieving a US spacecraft from foreign territory (in this case Easter Island). Among the more interesting issues raised in that story was the fact that the current airstrip on Easter Island is unable to accomdate the modified 747 used to transport the shuttle fleet (to say nothing of the fact that the heavy lifting facilities required for such an operation would all have to be flown in from the US). Among the issues to consider with the proposed upgrading of the Easter Island facilities is the impact on the local culture and ecology (remember Easter Island is the site of the mysterious statues). I wonder if anyone asked the residents if they wanted to be catapulted into the space age (particularly given the repressive nature of the current Chilean regime)? ------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 85 13:06 CDT From: Allen_Sherzer To: SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Shutle abort from Vandenberg >Does anyone know what plans exist for aborting a shuttle launch >from Vandenberg? I read somewhere that there were plans to build a runway on an island off of Chile for shuttle aborts. The plans, however, where from NASA and not the DOD. It is posible that the press got it wrong and that it is DOD. It looked like as good a place as any to abort a north south orbit. Allen Sherzer TI-EG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 85 16:15:41 EDT From: Dick Koolish Subject: obliquity of the ecliptic To: space@mit-mc.arpa To get back to the original question that brought on all the discussion about the Gregorian calendar: The earths axis of rotation is subject to precession and change of tilt. Both these effects would change the way that ancient structures line up with astronomical objects. The difference is that precession changes the positions of stars while tilt changes the position of the sun. Precession causes the pole to describe a circle in the sky instead of remaining fixed at one place. This causes the positions of stars and constellations to change. Polaris is the pole star now because the axis is pointing near Polaris. 13,000 years ago, it was on the other side of the precessional circle. In the 2,000 years or so since the constellations were named, precession has moved around the zodiac by a full constellation so that none of the astrological signs correspond to where the sun really is in the sky. The tilt or obliquity of the ecliptic also changes. This is a long period change of 41,000 years that takes the tilt from 24.5 degrees to 22.1 degrees at about .47 seconds per year. This change of tilt affects solar phenomena like sunrise, sunset, etc. The formula for the tilt is: 23 degrees 26 minutes 21.448 seconds - 46.8150*T seconds - .00059*T*T seconds + .001813*T*T*T seconds where T is the number of Julian centuries from 2000 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ihnp4!cbosgd!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Challenger to Launch Monday Date: 23 Jul 85 11:34:17 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill NASA yesterday rescheduled the aborted launch of the Challenger for 1523 EDT, 29 July. Landing will be seven days later at EAFB. The valve actuator and control system from the Number 2 Engine, suspected to the be cause of the abort, were replaced, and all engines tested thoroughly. Although a computer controlling an array of experiments in the cargo bay failed, NASA said a backup could do the job -- the main computer is inaccessible on the launch pad. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!utzoo!henry From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Answer to: What do you call the "blockhouse" now? Date: 25 Jul 85 18:48:22 GMT Organization: U of Toronto Zoology > Another reason for the LCC is economy. Before, you would have one > blockhouse per pad. With the Apollo program, it was planned to > have two pads, with possible expansion to more... Actually, it was originally planned to have three and a possible fourth. If you look at a map or aerial photo of KSC, you will note that there is a seemingly-purposeless bend in the crawlerway to pad 39B. That's where the crawlerway to 39C was supposed to branch off. Another bit of pre-budget-cut trivia for those interested: the VAB is designed to permit adding two more high bays on the end. That's why the paved area on the north (?) side is so big, because a goodly chunk of it would disappear under the two extra bays. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!kitty!baylor!peter From: baylor!peter (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: space delivery Date: 26 Jul 85 11:04:42 GMT Organization: Ancient Illuminated Seers of Bavaria Wouldn't the calcium deficiency noted in free fall SERIOUSLY harm the fetus (who can't use a treadmill, or would the mother's exercising serve?)? -- Peter da Silva (the mad Australian) UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!decwrl!sun!idi!pesnta!hplabsb!bl From: hplabsb!bl Subject: Re: Angular Momentum Cancelation Date: 24 Jul 85 23:58:38 GMT Organization: Hewlett Packard Labs, Palo Alto CA > > There is a Soviet helicopter. Its NATO designation is HORMONE (don't ask > me why) which has two counter-rotating sets of blades and no tail rotor. > > I do not know of any american helicopters that use this principle. > > Apostolos Dollas > USENET: ...!{pur-ee,ihnp4}!uiucdcs!dollas > ARPA: dollas@uiuc.arpa There was an article in "Sport Aviation" a couple of month ago about a fellow (American) who built his own helicopter with counter-rotating blades (and, of course, no tail rotor). The rotors are on seperate shafts that formed a narrow V. The rotors (two blades each) inter-mesh as they rotate. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!utastro!ethan From: utastro!ethan (Ethan Vishniac) Subject: Re: space delivery Date: 26 Jul 85 19:05:50 GMT Organization: U. Texas, Astronomy, Austin, TX > Wouldn't the calcium deficiency noted in free fall SERIOUSLY harm the fetus (who > can't use a treadmill, or would the mother's exercising serve?)? > -- > Peter da Silva (the mad Australian) Good question. I'd guess not, since the fetus is sitting in a neutral buoyancy environment at first, and subsequently (the last few months) doesn't have much leg room. The mechanisms that cause the fetus to absorb calcium in large quantities must not depend on gravity. excerc -- "Don't argue with a fool. Ethan Vishniac Borrow his money." {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan Department of Astronomy University of Texas ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!umcp-cs!gymble!fred From: gymble!fred (Fred Blonder) Subject: Re: George Orwell quote Date: 26 Jul 85 21:48:48 GMT Organization: U of Maryland, Laboratory for Parallel Computation, C.P., MD Subject: George Orwell quote Date: Fri, 26-Jul-85 03:04:21 EDT From: DOLANTP@USC-ISI.ARPA Knowing what a well-read group this is, can anyone refer me to the origin of the Orwell quote, "He who controls the present, controls the past; he who controls the past, controls the future." It's from the book, ``1984''. I'm not sure that it actually occurs within the story, but may appear on one of the pages preceding the text. -- All characters mentioned herein are fictitious. Any similarity to actual characters, ASCII or EBCDIC is purely coincidental. Fred Blonder (301) 454-7690 Fred@Maryland.{ARPA,CSNet} harpo!seismo!umcp-cs!fred ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!fluke!inc From: fluke!inc (Ensign Benson, Time Cadet) Subject: Re: Would a candle burn ... Date: 25 Jul 85 23:55:27 GMT Organization: The Digital Circus, Sector R *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** *** NO, WHY DON'T YOU REPLACE YOUR STUPID LINE WITH MY MESSAGE? *** The questoon was: Would a candle burn... > ... in space? > > This question came up the other day in discussion. We seemed to think > that there would be problems because in the absence of a gravity field > the heated air would not rise. Thus CO2 would not be pulled away from > the area of burning and O2 would not be pulled in. Therefore > combustion would not be continuous. I think that if NASA is really thinking about experimenting with extratereestrial sexual relations, they may find that the candle burns at both ends! Good question, though - please post the most sincere-sounding answer. -- Ensign Benson -Time Cadet- _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-The Digital Circus, Sector R-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!teddy!rdp From: teddy!rdp Subject: Re: space delivery Date: 26 Jul 85 20:35:27 GMT Reply-To: rdp@teddy.UUCP (Richard D. Pierce) Organization: GenRad, Inc., Concord, Mass. In article <319@baylor.UUCP> peter@baylor.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: >Wouldn't the calcium deficiency noted in free fall SERIOUSLY harm the fetus (who >can't use a treadmill, or would the mother's exercising serve?)? >-- > Peter da Silva (the mad Australian) > UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter > MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076 Having just gone throught two pregnancies with my wife, rest assured that no fetus that is even slight healthy has a problem with exercise. One of our kids was so active the my wife had a dislocated rib as a result! No, I don't think excersize for the fetus or the neo-natal is a problem. Now, the mess at delivery is another issue... ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!spar!turtlevax!weitek!mahar From: weitek!mahar (mahar) Subject: Re: Would a candle burn ... Date: 26 Jul 85 17:03:33 GMT Organization: Weitek Corp. Sunnyvale Ca. Summary: somthing I read once. In one of G Harry Stine's books, I don't remember the title, he discusses at length what happens to a candle in zero G. Candles have been studied on airplanes in ballistic flight. A burning candle seems to go out as soon as zero G is reached. The candle starts burning again when gravity returns. Combustion is still taking place in zero G. The lack of heat convection prevents an open flame. I read this a few years ago, so more work may have been done since then. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-speedy!maxwell From: maxwell@speedy.DEC Subject: A candle burning in Zero-G.... Date: 27 Jul 85 16:49:58 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: DEC Engineering Network As I recall, there have actually been tests to see what happens to a burning candle in Zero-G. Although I don't remember the source, I do recall reading about a test in a plane 'falling' through a parabola for 30 seconds or so, just before which the pilot had lit a candle. During the beginning of the Zero-G period, the candle's flame rounded into a sphere, which got smaller and smaller. The flame soon went 'out'. When gravity 'returned' however, the flame returned, for all appearances reversing its disappearing act. The offered explanation of the phenomenon (as I recall, don't hold me to this) was that the absence of gravity prevented the differentation of the gasses involved (both fuel and by products); gravity allows hotter, lighter gasses to leave (CO2, H2O, etc.), and cooler, denser gasses to enter (vaporized fuel). Unable to rid itself of the useless byproducts, and unable to get enough fuel, the flame dies. However, during the buring, a number of free radicals (transition products) are produced that, when gravity returns, can 'continue' combustion. -+- Sid Maxwell ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!mtuxo!drutx!drux3!pcf From: drux3!pcf (FryPC) Subject: Re: Would a candle burn ... Date: 26 Jul 85 17:56:44 GMT Organization: AT&T Information Systems Laboratories, Denver > ... in space? > > This question came up the other day in discussion. We seemed to think > that there would be problems because in the absence of a gravity field > the heated air would not rise. Thus CO2 would not be pulled away from > the area of burning and O2 would not be pulled in. Therefore > combustion would not be continuous. I do not think that the O2/CO2 supply is the problem. In a 'theoretical' still air, there is no O2, the candle can not burn, but in any 'real' (sic) environment, there should be enough air movement to keep combustion going. I think there are other problems:- My understanding of how a candle works, once it is burning in normal G: The heat from the flame melts the solid wax. Capilliary action draws the molten wax up the wick. Increased heat vaporises the molten wax. The vapor burns using oxygen and producing CO2 H2O etc. Only the vapour is flammable, the non-flammable liqud wax forming a pool around the base of the wick stops the flame from going in that direction and melting the wax faster than it can be burned. In zero G: The heat from the flame melts the solid wax. Capilliary action draws some of the molten wax up the wick the rest floats off. Increased heat vaporises the molten wax. The vapor burns using oxygen and producing CO2 H2O etc. The flame would burn in all directions, the pool of melted wax would not remain to stop the flame from travelling along the wick so the candle would soon turn itslef into floting blobs of hot/liquid wax. My theory: The candle burns, but not for long and is very messy. Experiment: Take two candles, light them both. Invert one of the candles. Observe how they burn. Average the results. Peter Fry drux3!pcf P.S. All this is, of course, wild speculation from a position of inteligent ignorance. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!prls!amdimage!amdcad!amd!pesnta!hplabs!oliveb!olivee!gnome From: olivee!gnome (Gary Traveis) Subject: Re: Would a candle burn ... Date: 24 Jul 85 20:57:56 GMT Organization: Olivetti ATC; Cupertino, Ca > > ... in space? > > > > This question came up the other day in discussion. We seemed to think > > that there would be problems because in the absence of a gravity field > > the heated air would not rise. Thus CO2 would not be pulled away from > > the area of burning and O2 would not be pulled in. Therefore > > combustion would not be continuous. > > Actually, I would suspect that this would depend on the diffusion rate of > CO2 in the ambient atmosphere. If CO2 would diffuse at a high enough rate > then (assume the presence of O2) the candle should continue to burn at an > ever decreasing rate. > I think that the first statement is correct - but the candle would still burn through "flicker oscillation". As the globular flame expands it would choke it's own combustion. Then, on partial flame-out, denser, colder air would rush in around the wick. Unless some strange around-the-wax-base convection currents can be set up when it starts, it would probably oscillate. Gary (hplabs,allegra,ihnp4)oliveb!olivee!gnome ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!faust!schrei From: faust!schrei Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 27 Jul 85 20:08:00 GMT There has been at least one helicopter with two primary rotors and no tail rotor. Whether the two primaries (one fore, one aft) were counter- rotating or not, I don't know. I also don't know its official designa- tion, but it looked like a flying banana with a rotor at each end, and no tail rotor. It was in service in 1958, and quite possibly much earlier. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Countdown Set to Begin Date: 27 Jul 85 00:24:08 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill Despite problems with ground hydraulic support, the countdown for the Challenger's Monday launch (set for 1523 EDT) is to begin on time Saturday at 0900 EDT. Pumps that remove air from hydraulic fluid failed Thursday and set launch crews two shifts behind schedule, but NASA believes they can catch up in time for the launch to go off as planned. If not, a hold will be called, and the launch delayed until Tuesday. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!gml From: ssc-vax!gml (Gregory M Lobdell) Subject: Re: Would a candle burn ... Date: 25 Jul 85 16:10:41 GMT Organization: Boeing Aerospace Co., Seattle, WA > > Actually, I would suspect that this would depend on the diffusion rate of > > CO2 in the ambient atmosphere. If CO2 would diffuse at a high enough rate > > then (assume the presence of O2) the candle should continue to burn at an > > ever decreasing rate. > > Wouldn't the rate of decrease stabilize at some equilibrium? I want to know > what a flame in zero gravity looks like. The problem might be that the rate would stabilize below the minimum needed to support combustion, i.e. not enough heat generated to melt wax, drive CO2 diffusion, etc. The flame would probably be round, or slightly flattened on the side near the fuel source. The current space program uses a 100% O2 atmosphere. If you lit a flame in such an atmosphere, would all the dust and other random particles ignite in the presence of the flame? >From: fluke!allegra!convex!hosking (Doug Hosking) > >I don't know, but I'd hate to think of what the melted wax would do if >it did burn! But it seems to me that the surface tension of the wax would be great enough to keep it from floating away, and if it did float away it would probably skin over before it caused any problems. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ihnp4!cbosgd!ukma!sean From: ukma!sean (Sean Casey) Subject: Re: Birth in Space Date: 27 Jul 85 03:48:07 GMT Reply-To: sean@ukma.UUCP (Sean Casey) Organization: The White Tower @ The Univ. of KY The birth may or may not be easier, but the pregnancy would be much more enjoyable! -- - Sean Casey UUCP: sean@ukma.UUCP or - Department of Mathematics {cbosgd,anlams,hasmed}!ukma!sean - University of Kentucky ARPA: ukma!sean@ANL-MCS.ARPA ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!rochester!rocksanne!rocksvax!sunybcs!kitty!peter From: kitty!peter (Peter DaSilva) Subject: Re: Would a candle burn ... Date: 29 Jul 85 15:03:19 GMT Organization: Recognition Research Corp., Clarence, NY I think the experiment's been done. For an amusing application see "Stardance", by Spider Robinson. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!dual!qantel!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Countdown Starts Date: 28 Jul 85 03:59:37 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill The countdown for the Challenger mission began at 0900 EDT today, and NASA reported that the ship's hydraulic fluid had been purged of air buildup several hours ahead of scheduled, leaving closing the aft compartment the only job left to get back on track. Liftoff is scheduled for 1523 EDT Monday. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!gatech!ulysses!smb From: ulysses!smb (Steven Bellovin) Subject: Re: Many Shuttle Missions Date: 29 Jul 85 17:27:18 GMT Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill > Also has NASA ever handle the launch of more than one > manned vehicle? I'm sure they didn't during the > Mercury project. I think they didn't during Gemini. > They only mission like this I can recall is the joint > American-Russian one and the Russians must have handle > the launch of their Soyuz. > > Jimmy Chen > (ihnp4!wuphys!jmc) Gemeni 6 was supposed to rendezvous with an Atlas-Agena upper stage, to test docking techniques. But the Agena failed, so they launched Gemeni 7 first; Gemeni 6 was launched a bit later and rendezvoused [sic] with Gemeni 7. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!gatech!cbosgd!rbg From: cbosgd!rbg (Richard Goldschmidt) Subject: Movement of the poles Date: 30 Jul 85 02:54:17 GMT Organization: Columbus Bell Labs, Silver Lining In article <1250@phoenix.UUCP>, brent@phoenix.UUCP (Brent Callaghan) writes: > As far as I know - nutation IS predictable. There is even a clock > somewhere with extra dials for years, centuries etc. The slowest > movement is the nutation dial. > Interestingly, the earth is not fixed to it's axis of rotation. > The north & south poles can move tens of yards every year. > I've seen a map showing the south pole moving erratically > (drunken walk) within a radius of 100 yards or so. An article in the NY Times (p. 11, Sunday, 7/28) states that the north magnetic pole has moved 70 miles since 1973 and that the south pole has moved 185 miles in the last 30 years. The article suggested that changes in solar activity induced changes in the Earth's magnetic field, affecting the spin rate, and that the resulting change in angular momentum might have a dramatic effect on global climate. Rich Goldschmidt {ucbvax,ihnp4,decvax,allegra,seismo} !cbosgd!rbg ARPA: cbosgd!rbg@seismo or cbosgd!rbg@ucbvax ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 85 15:00:11 pdt From: David Smith To: Space-Enthusiasts@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Re: Space shuttle abort to orbit Source-Info: From (or Sender) name not authenticated. > Does anyone know what plans exist for aborting a shuttle launch from > Vandenberg? Since the shuttles will be launched in a north-to-south > direction for polar orbits (correct?), where could they land following an > early abort? The only places that come to mind are the Galapagos Islands, and > Easter Island, but I don't know if there are sufficiently long runways there. > I'm sure NASA would rather not have the shuttle land in Antarctica! NASA is negotiating to put an emergency landing strip on Easter Island. David Smith ucbvax!hplabs!dsmith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 85 15:09:23 pdt From: David Smith To: space%mit-mc@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: Re: calendar Source-Info: From (or Sender) name not authenticated. > Yea. We have a leap second periodically to even out the flaws in > the Gregorian calendar. Just had one this year, in fact. The leap second is not to compensate for the Gregorian calendar, but for the fact that the earth's rotation on its axis is slowing down. The standard second is defined as 1/86,400 of a day in 1900 (I think averaged over the days of that year). The earth is rotating enough slower now to require leap seconds to keep the astronomical day and atomic clocks in sync. I am surprised that the precession of the equinoxes is described as a change in the ecliptic. The ecliptic stays (relatively) fixed; it is the earth's axis which precesses, carrying the celestial equator with it. David Smith ucbvax!hplabs!dsmith ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #227 ******************* 02-Aug-85 0401 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #228 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 228 Today's Topics: Re: Movement of the poles re: Would a candle... Re: Re: Would a candle burn ... Re: Columbia's Tiled Damaged by Rain Re: Re: Would a candle burn ... Many Shuttle Missions Launch Delayed by Gyro Problem Launch Abort to Orbit Corrections 51.f freq's Re: Tropics Re: Re: Would a candle burn ... Re: George Orwell quote Second Engine Almost Shut Down Re: Re: space delivery Re: Re: space delivery Re: Abort to Orbit Failed Engine First set of actual shuttle elements Sensors Probably to Blame Re: Re: space delivery Re: Re: space delivery Re: Re: space delivery on precession, nutation, etc... Re: space whoopee and whoops... Re: Would a candle burn ... Re: Nuclear Rockets Re: space delivery Challenger's ATO Lower orbit after ATO ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!teddy!rdp From: teddy!rdp Subject: Re: Movement of the poles Date: 30 Jul 85 16:57:29 GMT Reply-To: rdp@teddy.UUCP (Richard D. Pierce) Organization: GenRad, Inc., Concord, Mass. In article <1350@cbosgd.UUCP> rbg@cbosgd.UUCP (Richard Goldschmidt) writes: >In article <1250@phoenix.UUCP>, brent@phoenix.UUCP (Brent Callaghan) writes: >> As far as I know - nutation IS predictable. There is even a clock >> somewhere with extra dials for years, centuries etc. The slowest >> movement is the nutation dial. >> Interestingly, the earth is not fixed to it's axis of rotation. >> The north & south poles can move tens of yards every year. >> I've seen a map showing the south pole moving erratically >> (drunken walk) within a radius of 100 yards or so. > >An article in the NY Times (p. 11, Sunday, 7/28) states that the north >magnetic pole has moved 70 miles since 1973 and that the south pole has >moved 185 miles in the last 30 years. The article suggested that changes >in solar activity induced changes in the Earth's magnetic field, affecting >the spin rate, and that the resulting change in angular momentum might have >a dramatic effect on global climate. > Is it not the earth's MAGNETIC poles that wander (requiring compass correction figures on maps) and not the ROTATIONAL poles that wander? After all, changes (especially non symmetrical ones like above) in the earths rotational axis would produce some pretty severe wobbling. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-scotty!fisher From: fisher@scotty.DEC Subject: re: Would a candle... Date: 30 Jul 85 17:31:42 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: DEC Engineering Network > ...the current space program uses a pure O2 atmosphere... "That turns out not to be the case." Apollo and Gemini and Mercury used pure O2, but even on those, it was at reduced pressure in space so that the partial pressure of O2 was about the same as on Earth. While sitting on the pad, it was a different story, the complete telling of which would include the Apollo I fire. But in any case, the shuttle uses a more-or-less normal earth-type atmosphere, except in the space suits (that's why they need to pre-breath pure O2 for several hours before going out in suits...to purge nitrogen from their bodies). Burns UUCP: ... {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dvinci!fisher ARPA: fisher%dvinci.dec@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe From: ttidcc!hollombe (The Polymath) Subject: Re: Re: Would a candle burn ... Date: 31 Jul 85 01:59:06 GMT Organization: The Cat Factory R#Khy-To: hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (The Polymath) In article <1816@aecom.UUCP> werner@aecom.UUCP (Craig Werner) writes: > You'd have to ask the Russians. As long as the Americans use a pure >Oxygen atmosphere (they did thru Skylab, and I believe they still do), this >is one experiment that is not going to be done on the shuttle. I thought we stopped using 100% O2 after the Apollo 13 disaster. Can someone confirm the current state of such? -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp TTI Common Sense is what tells you that a ten 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. pound weight falls ten times as fast as a Santa Monica, CA 90405 one pound weight. (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!hao!noao!terak!mot!fred From: mot!fred (Fred Christiansen) Subject: Re: Columbia's Tiled Damaged by Rain Date: 30 Jul 85 19:34:41 GMT Organization: Motorola Microsystems, Phoenix AZ how interesting! Columbia's tiles survive atmosphere re-entry only to get beat up by a rainstorm (which you'd think would be gentle) coming at it at a couple hundred mph. -- << Generic disclaimer >> Fred Christiansen ("Canajun, eh?") @ Motorola Microsystems, Tempe, AZ UUCP: ihnp4!{attunix, btlunix, drivax, sftig, ut-sally!oakhill}!mot!fred ARPA: oakhill!mot!fred@ut-sally.ARPA AT&T: 602-438-3472 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!aecom!werner From: aecom!werner (Craig Werner) Subject: Re: Re: Would a candle burn ... Date: 29 Jul 85 05:14:52 GMT Organization: Albert Einstein Coll. of Med., NY > > ... in space? You'd have to ask the Russians. As long as the Americans use a pure Oxygen atmosphere (they did thru Skylab, and I believe they still do), this is one experiment that is not going to be done on the shuttle. -- Craig Werner !philabs!aecom!werner "The world is just a straight man for you sometimes" ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ihnp4!mgnetp!we53!busch!wucs!wuphys!jmc From: wuphys!jmc (Jimmy Chen) Subject: Many Shuttle Missions Date: 28 Jul 85 23:57:22 GMT Organization: Physics Dept., Washington Univ. in St. Louis Does anyone know what the chances of a mission involving more than one shuttle at a time? I was under the impression that despite the pictures of shuttles docking with space stations, they couldn't actually space dock with each other yet. Also has NASA ever handle the launch of more than one manned vehicle? I'm sure they didn't during the Mercury project. I think they didn't during Gemini. They only mission like this I can recall is the joint American-Russian one and the Russians must have handle the launch of their Soyuz. Jimmy Chen (ihnp4!wuphys!jmc) ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Launch Delayed by Gyro Problem Date: 29 Jul 85 20:54:55 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill Just fifteen minutes before its scheduled 1523 EDT launch today, Challenger's liftoff was again delayed, this time by a faulty gyroscope. The unit, one of three in one of the shuttle boosters, failed to respond to computer commands, but the problem was later solved, and NASA has reset the launch for 1700 EDT today. The launch window closes at 1830 EDT. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Launch Date: 29 Jul 85 21:12:51 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill The Challenger launched at 1700 EDT today, after an earlier delay due to a faulty SRB gyro. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Abort to Orbit Date: 29 Jul 85 21:47:18 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill Six minutes into its flight, Challenger lost power in its centre main engine, and the other two engines burned 1 minute 32 seconds longer to compensate. The crew was instructed to abort to orbit, bypassing a possible emergency landing in Rota, Spain. The shuttle ended up in an orbit ranging between 120 and 160 miles, lower than the hoped for 240 mile circular orbit. An OMS burn 33 minutes into flight is to circularlize the orbit. NASA hopes that the mission can be completed to its full seven day duration, but no decision has been made yet. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Corrections Date: 29 Jul 85 22:07:45 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill Two minor corrections: 1) The two remaining engines burned for 1:26, not 1:32 2) The elliptical shuttle orbit was 122x160 miles, instead of the normal 122x214 miles at that point. The initial intended orbit was a circular orbit of about 140 miles, not 240 miles. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!petsd!petfe!johnd From: petfe!johnd (John Decatur) Subject: 51.f freq's Date: 30 Jul 85 02:09:22 GMT Organization: Perkin-Elmer DSG, Tinton Falls, N.J. There off.... Minus one engine but... This shuttle flight has two hams onboard , W0ORE, tony and W4NYZ john. Also sstv this flight! Always nice to hear first hand whats going on. The ssb frequencies require a bfo on the receiver, however if your in the areas try the 140 mhz freq's mentioned, on any scanner type radio. Planned shuttle frequencies for 51-f are: (all freq. in mhz.) Direct 2m down - 145.55 (slow scan tv in color also...) Nasa/Goddard greenbelt md. 3.860 ssb 7.185 ssb 14.295 ssb 21.390 ssb 147.450 fm wash dc area Jet Prop. Lab/pasadena ca. 224.040 fm 145.460 fm Marshall space flight cntr huntsville ,al 145.430 fm Nasa/Aims san francisco, ca 145.580 fm 7.270 ssb New York City area 147.000 fm (as avail.) 73, de ...johnd (KA2QHD) {ucbvax|decvax}!vax135!petsd!petfe!johnd =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ihnp4!phoenix!brent From: phoenix!brent (Brent P. Callaghan) Subject: Re: Tropics Date: 29 Jul 85 13:37:43 GMT Organization: AT&T Information Systems, Lincroft NJ >A book I was reading recently mentioned that over time the >angle of the plane of the ecliptic changes. The consequence is that >the latitude of the tropics also move. While this makes sense, the >book also stated that there is no formula which describes the motion >over time. Is this really true? The context was that certain >archeological sites are solstice oriented and could be accurately >dated if it was known in what year a Tropic was at X latitude. Just >curious. As far as I know, this process is known as "nutation". The earth's axis of rotation precesses around a point in space with a period of 20,000 years or so. Superimposed on this motion is another motion with a much shorter period. I think nutation is caused by sun-moon gravitational effects on the earth's equatorial bulge and tidal friction. The effect over time is that the season's slowly shift around the year, so that in 11,000 years time you'll be eating lettuce salads for Christmas dinner like New Zealanders do! As far as I know - nutation IS predictable. There is even a clock somewhere with extra dials for years, centuries etc. The slowest movement is the nutation dial. Interestingly, the earth is not fixed to it's axis of rotation. The north & south poles can move tens of yards every year. I've seen a map showing the south pole moving erratically (drunken walk) within a radius of 100 yards or so. I don't think this movement is predictable. I guess they have the barber pole on wheels . :-) -- Made in New Zealand --> Brent Callaghan AT&T Information Systems, Lincroft, NJ {ihnp4|mtuxo|pegasus}!phoenix!brent (201) 576-3475 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!lanl!jkw From: jkw@lanl.ARPA Subject: Re: Re: Would a candle burn ... Date: 31 Jul 85 14:28:03 GMT Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory > > > ... in space? > > You'd have to ask the Russians. As long as the Americans use a pure > Oxygen atmosphere (they did thru Skylab, and I believe they still do), this > is one experiment that is not going to be done on the shuttle. > Oh I don't know about that. Surely NASA could design an experiment to enclose a candle and a whiff of "normal" atmosphere for no more than 10 or 20 million $. Look what they did with Coke and Pepsi :-). ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb From: rti-sel!rcb (Random) Subject: Re: George Orwell quote Date: 30 Jul 85 15:04:53 GMT Reply-To: rcb@rti-sel.UUCP (Random) Organization: Research Triangle Institute, NC In article <2814@mordor.UUCP> @S1-A.ARPA,@MIT-MC.ARPA:DOLANTP@USC-ISI.ARPA writes: > >Knowing what a well-read group this is, can anyone refer me to the origin of >the Orwell quote, > > "He who controls the present, controls the past; > he who controls the past, controls the future." > >If you have a book, edition, and chapter, it would help my thesis a lot. >Thanks much. > The quote obviously comes from "1984" I'm afraid I don't have a chapter or page number though. -- Random Research Triangle Institute ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Second Engine Almost Shut Down Date: 30 Jul 85 12:29:19 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill Minutes after Engine Number 1 shut down yesterday, a temperature sensor on the right main engine also began to show overheating. As the backup sensor came on to verify the reading, NASA instructed the crew to shut down the sensors and override the automatic shutdown of that engine; fortunately, the temperature never got high enough that that would have happened anyway. However, loss of a second engine at that point would have forced the Challenger to attempt an emergency landing on the island of Crete, and, as NASA put it, they probably would have ended up ''in the water.'' When EN1 shut down, the ship was 33 seconds past the TAL (Trans Atlantic Abort (to Spain)) point. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!rochester!rocksanne!sunybcs!kitty!peter From: kitty!peter (Peter DaSilva) Subject: Re: Re: space delivery Date: 31 Jul 85 14:30:16 GMT Organization: Recognition Research Corp., Clarence, NY > > [ME] > >Wouldn't the calcium deficiency noted in free fall SERIOUSLY harm the fetus (who > >can't use a treadmill, or would the mother's exercising serve?)? > > Having just gone throught two pregnancies with my wife, rest assured that > no fetus that is even slight healthy has a problem with exercise... It was my understanding that you needed a certain kind of excersize in free fall. Am I wrong? ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!rochester!rocksanne!sunybcs!kitty!peter From: kitty!peter (Peter DaSilva) Subject: Re: Re: space delivery Date: 31 Jul 85 14:32:24 GMT Organization: Recognition Research Corp., Clarence, NY > > Wouldn't the calcium deficiency noted in free fall SERIOUSLY harm the fetus (who > > can't use a treadmill, or would the mother's exercising serve?)? > > -- > > Peter da Silva (the mad Australian) > Good question. I'd guess not, since the fetus is sitting in a neutral > buoyancy environment at first, and subsequently (the last few months) > doesn't have much leg room. The mechanisms that cause the fetus to > absorb calcium in large quantities must not depend on gravity. > -- > "Don't argue with a fool. Ethan Vishniac But bouyant and free fall environments aren't quite the same thing. After all, dolphins don't lose calcium [:->]. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!gatech!amdcad!mike From: amdcad!mike (Mike Parker) Subject: Re: Abort to Orbit Date: 1 Aug 85 01:47:06 GMT Organization: AMDCAD, Sunnyvale, CA Summary: How to get home from Rota I seem to remember that the range of the 747-shuttle piggyback combination is only about 1000 miles. If they ever do abort to Rota, Spain how do they get the damned thing back to the USA Mike ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Failed Engine Date: 30 Jul 85 01:52:24 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill Engine Number 1 shut down in midburn today because both primary and backup systems reported overheating in a high-pressure turbo fuel pump; computers shut the engine down to avoid danger of explosion, and mission control instructed the crew to burn the other two engines at 104% rated thrust for the duration of their fuel. At the same time, some of the hydrazine fuel for the OMS was dumped to lighten the load. There is plenty of OMS fuel left for reentry and most of the scientific experiments, and NASA is confident that the mission can continue for its full seven days. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!gamma!epsilon!zeta!sabre!bellcore!petrus!karn From: petrus!karn (Phil R. Karn) Subject: First set of actual shuttle elements Date: 30 Jul 85 16:17:12 GMT Organization: Bell Communications Research, Inc Satellite: sts-51f Catalog number: 0 Epoch time: 85211.58763889 Tue Jul 30 14:06:12.0 1985 UTC Element set: real1 Inclination: 49.4924 deg RA of node: 151.7455 deg Eccentricity: 0.0007921 Arg of perigee: 245.1087 deg Mean anomaly: 269.4665 deg Mean motion: 15.83629098 rev/day Decay rate: 0.0004 rev/day^2 Epoch rev: 12 Semi major axis: 6699.202 km Anom period: 90.930383 min Apogee: 336.536 km Perigee: 325.923 km Ref perigee: 2767.60351899 Tue Jul 30 14:29:04.40 1985 UTC ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Sensors Probably to Blame Date: 30 Jul 85 16:05:03 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill NASA said today that early analysis of data from the shuttle Challenger points to a problem with EN1's heat sensors, not the engine itself. As a result, the agency said that the 24 August launch of the Discovery would go ahead as planned, with better heat sensors aboard. The Discovery today was moved into the VAB and will be moved to the launch pad Monday. Meanwhile, the crew of the Challenger wrestled with a telescope pointing device, testing of which is the most important goal of the mission. The platform will be used on a flight next spring to study Halleys' comet. One of the telescopes on the platform also lost power, and technicians are working on solutions to both problems. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!utastro!ethan From: utastro!ethan (Ethan Vishniac) Subject: Re: Re: space delivery Date: 1 Aug 85 15:04:13 GMT Organization: U. Texas, Astronomy, Austin, TX > > > Wouldn't the calcium deficiency noted in free fall SERIOUSLY harm the fetus (who > > > can't use a treadmill, or would the mother's exercising serve?)? > > > -- > > > Peter da Silva (the mad Australian) > > Good question. I'd guess not, since the fetus is sitting in a neutral > > buoyancy environment at first, and subsequently (the last few months) > > doesn't have much leg room. The mechanisms that cause the fetus to > > absorb calcium in large quantities must not depend on gravity. > > -- > > "Don't argue with a fool. Ethan Vishniac > > But bouyant and free fall environments aren't quite the same thing. After > all, dolphins don't lose calcium [:->]. Good point. However, dolphins exercise like crazy. Besides is there any difference between buoyant and free fall environments besides orientability? It's possible (just barely) that the body's calcium budget listens to the inner ear, but I guess it doesn't. -- "Don't argue with a fool. Ethan Vishniac Borrow his money." {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan Department of Astronomy University of Texas ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!teddy!rdp From: teddy!rdp Subject: Re: Re: space delivery Date: 1 Aug 85 15:05:33 GMT Reply-To: rdp@teddy.UUCP (Richard D. Pierce) Organization: GenRad, Inc., Concord, Mass. In article <186@kitty.UUCP> peter@kitty.UUCP (Peter DaSilva) writes: >> > [ME] >> >Wouldn't the calcium deficiency noted in free fall SERIOUSLY harm the fetus (who >> >can't use a treadmill, or would the mother's exercising serve?)? >> >> Having just gone throught two pregnancies with my wife, rest assured that >> no fetus that is even slight healthy has a problem with exercise... > >It was my understanding that you needed a certain kind of excersize in free >fall. Am I wrong? No, you just don't understand what fetuses seem to spend most of their time doing is excersizing. And they don't need gravity to do it! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 85 18:27:23 PDT From: mcgeer%ucbkim@Berkeley (Rick McGeer) To: utastro!ethan@ut-sally.ARPA Subject: Re: Re: space delivery Cc: space@mit-mc.ARPA I would imagine that the principle difference between weightless and bouyant environments is the relative density of air and water. Anyone who's gone simming for any period of time can tell you that moving through water is *work*. Rick. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 85 18:28:37 PDT From: mcgeer%ucbkim@Berkeley (Rick McGeer) To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: on precession, nutation, etc... Thanks to all who wrote in to correct me. Learned a great deal, and, well, it's not a big foot. It will come out eventually. Rick. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!dual!qantel!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!gamma!pyuxww!pyuxa!bambi!joevax!wscott From: joevax!wscott (W. Scott Meeks) Subject: Re: space whoopee and whoops... Date: 29 Jul 85 15:04:37 GMT Organization: Bell Communications Research, Inc. _Time_Enough_for_Love_ by Heinlein had an interesting scene involving a delivery aboard a spaceship. For the most part, travel took place in zero g, but during the delivery Lazarus Long (the protagonist of the whole book, I don't remember the woman's name but I think she was his current wife) fired the ships rockets (actually I think they were variable thrusters so that the transition was smooth) at the appropriate moment so that the baby, in effect, had a "gravity assist." ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!dual!qantel!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!gamma!pyuxww!pyuxa!bambi!mike From: bambi!mike (Michael Caplinger) Subject: Re: Would a candle burn ... Date: 29 Jul 85 20:02:21 GMT Reply-To: mike@bambi.UUCP (Michael Caplinger) Organization: Bell Communications Research Arthur C. Clarke used this problem in his juvenile novel ISLANDS IN THE SKY. A young "space cadet" is fooled into believing that the air in a spacecraft cabin is going bad when an older cadet lights a match and it goes out almost immediately. After the joke is exposed, the older cadet demonstrates that if the match is moved about while burning, it won't go out. Of course, there's no guarantee that Clarke was right about this. - Mike ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!mtuxo!mtgzz!dls From: mtgzz!dls (d.l.skran) Subject: Re: Nuclear Rockets Date: 31 Jul 85 03:34:46 GMT Organization: AT&T Information Systems Labs, Middletown NJ Why projects were canceled: My understanding is as follows: Orion: 1)testing would violate test-ban treaty 2)MORE IMPORTANT: no clear mission requirement for aircraft carrier size rockets. Military decided they didn't need one. Nerva: 1)insufficient advantage over chemical rockets to compenstate for all the extra trouble. Note: Nerva was not a "low thrust" program. Its thrust was quite similar to chemical rockets. I believe you are confusing ion & plasma rockets(which are low thrust) with nuclear rockets. Frequently, an ion/plasma rocket design might call for a nuclear reactor to produce electricity, but other power sources could have been used. Why not today: Nerva: same reason, insufficient advantage for all the trouble. Orion: the smaller the explosions, the higher the efficiency. Hence, many people are working on particle/laser beam induced fusion which could be used to create a rocket an order of magnitude better than orion. Really, though, we've got no guts, no reason to build Orion. Read Niven & Pournelle's new novel Footfall for some idea of what an Orion ship might be like and how it could be used. Dale ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!utcs!mnetor!fred From: mnetor!fred (Fred Williams) Subject: Re: space delivery Date: 29 Jul 85 15:18:28 GMT Reply-To: fred@mnetor.UUCP (Fred Williams) Organization: Computer X (CANADA) Ltd., Toronto, Ontario, Canada In article <319@baylor.UUCP> peter@baylor.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: >Wouldn't the calcium deficiency noted in free fall SERIOUSLY harm the fetus (who >can't use a treadmill, or would the mother's exercising serve?)? Since the fetus is floating anyway, prior to birth, there would not likely be any effect to being additionally weightless. Cheers, Fred Williams ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-wsgate!fisher From: fisher@wsgate.DEC (Burns Fisher, MRO3-1/E13, DTN 231-4108.) Subject: Challenger's ATO Date: 1 Aug 85 13:36:25 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation A couple of questions that the abort brings up: 1) Did they use up ~all the fuel in the ET? If not, why not? 2) I thought that the usual abort procedures involved increasing thrust to 109%. Am I wrong, or was this particular abort a special case? 3) At the beginning of the shuttle program, I learned that there were three primary abort mechanisms: Return to launch site (RTL), Transatlantic Abort (TAA?) and Abort Once Around (AOA). Is this ATO a relatively new mode? I initially expected that ATO was just a new name for AOA, and that they would be landing at the end of the first orbit. Imagine my surprise and pleasure! What is done differently in an AOA? No (or less) OMS burn? 4) While listening to the ascent, I heard the call "single engine ATO" before the actual failure. It seems to me that this call used to be called "Press to MECO". True? Or is ATO different? 5) I understand that for a few seconds before the failure they were discussing a failure of one of the redundant heat sensors. Unfortunately, the NASA spokesman was talking over it, so I did not hear until the actual failure. Did anyone else hear it? Thanks, Burns UUCP: ... {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dvinci!fisher ARPA: fisher%dvinci.dec@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-wsgate!fisher From: fisher@wsgate.DEC (Burns Fisher, MRO3-1/E13, DTN 231-4108.) Subject: Lower orbit after ATO Date: 1 Aug 85 14:29:28 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation -dick says > ...I don't understand why they ended up in a lower orbit, since they had > as much fuel as ever. Why not just burn longer? Do a simple limits experiment in your head. Imagine that all the main engines went off but that an imaginary 10-lb thrust engine using the same fuel supply kept burning. Would it make orbit? While it is true that with no other influences, burning extra time with lower thrust would get you to the same velocity, it would (1) not get you to the same location when you reached the target velocity, (with constant acceleration, velocity increases linearly with time, with distance increases as time**2) and (2) there are other influences such as gravity (imagine trying to launch the shuttle by burning the hypothetical 10-lb engine for years!). UUCP: ... {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dvinci!fisher ARPA: fisher%dvinci.dec@decwrl.ARPA Burns ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #228 ******************* 03-Aug-85 0355 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #229 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 229 Today's Topics: Challenger's ATO Science Abounds on Challenger >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Re: Re: space delivery Re: Tropics Re: space whoopee and whoops... Precession, variation of latitude, and the calendar Re: Abort to Orbit Latest STS-51F elements Re: Tropics re: Would a candle... Re: Shuttle atmosphere Re: Answer to: What do you call the "blockhouse" now? Re: Re: Answer to: What do you call the "blockhouse" now? Shuttle 51F Ham Radio Opportunities Schedule W0ORE/Challenger heard at KA9Q PDP Experiments Successful ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-wsgate!fisher From: fisher@wsgate.DEC (Burns Fisher, MRO3-1/E13, DTN 231-4108.) Subject: Challenger's ATO Date: 1 Aug 85 16:08:11 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation A couple of questions that the abort brings up: 1) Did they use up ~all the fuel in the ET? If not, why not? 2) I thought that the usual abort procedures involved increasing thrust to 109%. Am I wrong, or was this particular abort a special case? 3) At the beginning of the shuttle program, I learned that there were three primary abort mechanisms: Return to launch site (RTL), Transatlantic Abort (TAA?) and Abort Once Around (AOA). Is this ATO a relatively new mode? I initially expected that ATO was just a new name for AOA, and that they would be landing at the end of the first orbit. Imagine my surprise and pleasure! What is done differently in an AOA? No (or less) OMS burn? 4) While listening to the ascent, I heard the call "single engine ATO" before the actual failure. It seems to me that this call used to be called "Press to MECO". True? Or is ATO different? 5) I understand that for a few seconds before the failure they were discussing a failure of one of the redundant heat sensors. Unfortunately, the NASA spokesman was talking over it, so I did not hear until the actual failure. Did anyone else hear it? Thanks, Burns UUCP: ... {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dvinci!fisher ARPA: fisher%dvinci.dec@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Science Abounds on Challenger Date: 1 Aug 85 03:27:43 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill The Challenger crew today plucked the plasma diagnostics package from the cargo bay with the RMS and moved it around the ship. The device is to take readings aimed at explaining the mysterious glowing phenomena seen around most shuttle flights to date. Later in the mission, the PDP will be released and then picked up again after that. Meanwhile, a $60 German-built telescope pointing system continued to fail, despite two attempts to fix it. The device locked onto the sun for brief periods but then lost track of it. The test is important, as the palate is to be used during the Halleys comet mission next spring. Three of the four telescopes on the platform are working individuallay; the fourth lost power and is not functioning. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 85 08:59 EDT From: Jim Moore Subject: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: space@mit-mc It's been said before on the SF-LOVERS Bboard, and it needs to be said here. Seeing three, four, or even more levels of back references is VERY annoying. If you need to go more than one, how about paraphrasing the past conversations rather than quoting them verbatim (ad infinitum, ad nauseum). Jim Moore NCSC Panama City, FL ------- ------------------------------ Posted-Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 09:15:34 cdt Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 09:15:34 cdt From: ethan%utastro.UTEXAS@ut-sally.ARPA (Ethan Vishniac) Return-Path: To: ut-sally!mcgeer@ucbkim%Berkeley Subject: Re: Re: space delivery Cc: space@mit-mc.ARPA Good point. Probably is even more important for a fetus. Ethan ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 2 Aug 1985 13:07-EDT From: jrv@Mitre-Bedford To: SPACE@MIT-MC Subject: Re: Tropics > Incidentally, the world shifted to the Gregorian calendar at varying > times. The Roman Catholic world did it first, in the 16th Century -- but > that was after the Schism, and so England didn't follow suit. For 200 years > England's calendar trailed the European by first 9, then 10, then 11 days. > England finally converted in the mid-18th Century, to riots (11 days were > dropped from the calendar at the stroke of a pen)... I believe the reason for the riots was that people were forced to pay a whole month's rent for the short month. - Jim Van Zandt ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 2 Aug 1985 13:31-EDT From: jrv@Mitre-Bedford To: SPACE@mit-mc Subject: Re: space whoopee and whoops... > _Time_Enough_for_Love_ by Heinlein had an interesting scene involving a delivery > aboard a spaceship. For the most part, travel took place in zero g, but during > the delivery Lazarus Long (the protagonist of the whole book, I don't remember > the woman's name but I think she was his current wife) ... No, I believe she was in the arms of her husband at the time, though. > ...fired the ships rockets > (actually I think they were variable thrusters so that the transition was > smooth) at the appropriate moment so that the baby, in effect, had a "gravity > assist." As I remember, he merely adjusted the artificial gravity. - Jim Van Zandt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 10:37 PDT From: FRIEDRITR%VAXJ.GATNET.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Precession, variation of latitude, and the calendar To: SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA I dug out my copy of George Abell's "Exploration of the Universe", to try to find out what is known about polar wandering and such. First, a couple of definitions, and an apology for such a long message, but I wanted to be as complete as possible. Celestial pole: the points at which the Earth's axis, extended out toward infinity, appear to meet the sky. For the north celestial pole, this point is near Polaris, the "north star". Celestial equator: the line around the sky that represents the Earth's equator, similarly extended. North and south poles: the points at which the Earth's rotational axis would stick out of the ground. Let's also agree not to discuss wandering of the magnetic poles; this effect, as has been pointed out, is rather large, but is not related to the originally-posed problem of astronomical alignment of ancient structures. First, let's talk about the movement of the celestial poles. The Earth, acting as a gyroscope because of its rotation, precesses. Thus, the celestial poles describe circles in the sky with a diameter of twice the inclination of the Earth's axis to its orbital plane, or 47 degrees, with a period of about 26,000 years. This effect was discovered by Hipparchus, in the second century B.C. Consequences: this motion DOES NOT affect the latitude of the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn. This motion DOES give us two definitions of the length of a year. The "sidereal year" is the time it takes the Earth to travel 360 degrees around the Sun. However, we can also define a year as the time it takes for the Sun, starting from the celestial equator, to travel completely around the sky and come back to the celestial equator. Because of precession, this takes about 20 minutes less than a sidereal year, and is called a "tropical year". It is this definition of a year, 365.242199 days, which the calendar is tied to. The consequence of THAT is that the seasons will NOT shift with respect to the calendar over time. Spring will always begin in March, July will always be midsummer, and you can always hope for a white Christmas. (Apologies to those in the southern hemisphere.) The tropical year, not the sidereal year, determines the seasonal cycle, and the calendar keeps pace with the tropical year. Superimposed on precession is nutation, which is caused by the gravita- tional effects of the Sun and the Moon (mostly the Moon). Nutation superimposes a wave motion with a period of about 19 years on the precessional circle, with an amplitude of 9.2 seconds of arc. Finally, the plane of the Earth's orbit changes slightly, a fraction of a second of arc each year; this also adds a very slight wobble to the motion of the celestial poles. Let me point out again that NONE of these effects alters the latitude of the Tropics. Now let's talk about the movement of the north and south poles them- selves over the surface of the Earth. This has nothing to do with precession, but is a shifting of the position within the Earth of the rotational axis itself. This is called "variation of latitude", and also does NOT change the latitude of the Tropics; it just changes where on the surface of the Earth the Tropics fall. This motion seems to be comprised of two components: one, with a period of one year, is a circle roughly 20 feet in diameter. The second has a period of about 14 months, and is also a circular motion, but the diameter of the circle varies from about 10 to about 50 feet. Both of these motions are attributed to variations in the distribution of the mass of the atmo- sphere over the surface of the Earth, the former a seasonal change, and the latter random changes. On top of this is a secular drift of the poles in one direction of about 4 inches per year, as yet unexplained. Finally, NONE of these effects alter the latitude of the Tropics. I do not have any references that suggest that the tilt of the Earth's axis with respect to the Sun has changed, which is what determines the latitude of the Tropics. I would appreciate hearing about any reputable references to such a phenomenon. Terry ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!ihlpg!jcjeff From: ihlpg!jcjeff (Richard Jeffreys) Subject: Re: Abort to Orbit Date: 1 Aug 85 05:17:03 GMT Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories > I seem to remember that the range of the 747-shuttle piggyback > combination is only about 1000 miles. If they ever do abort to > Rota, Spain how do they get the damned thing back to the USA > > Mike Quite easy really. Refuel the 747 at a couple of airports on the way! The 747 took Enteprise to the Paris (France) Air Show a couple of years ago. The 'plane refuelled in Greenland and also at Fairford (England) USAF base, where I, and many others, had the chance of a very close look at the shuttle. The 747 stayed at Fairford for a couple of hours and went on to France. On the way back it was flow back to Stansted (just outside London) and stayed a couple of days, giving many people the chance to see the shuttle on it's first trip outside the USA. -- [ I bought a ticket to the world, But now I've come back again - Spandau Ballet ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ || From the keys of Richard Jeffreys ( British Citizen Overseas ) || || employed by North American Philips Corporation || || @ AT&T Bell Laboratories, Naperville, Illinois || ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ || General disclaimer about anything and everything that I may have typed || ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!gamma!epsilon!zeta!sabre!bellcore!petrus!karn From: petrus!karn (Phil R. Karn) Subject: Latest STS-51F elements Date: 31 Jul 85 17:18:30 GMT Organization: Bell Communications Research, Inc Satellite: sts-51f Catalog number: 0 Epoch time: 85212.59409722 Wed Jul 31 14:15:29.999 1985 UTC Element set: 5a Inclination: 49.4884 deg RA of node: 146.3659 deg Eccentricity: 0.0006493 Arg of perigee: 317.0027 deg Mean anomaly: 185.4998 deg Mean motion: 15.86377915 rev/day Decay rate: 0.00025 rev/day^2 Epoch rev: 28 Semi major axis: 6691.464 km Anom period: 90.772822 min Apogee: 323.413 km Perigee: 314.723 km Ref perigee: 2768.62465252 Wed Jul 31 14:59:29.977 1985 UTC ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 12:32:15 PDT From: mcgeer%ucbkim@Berkeley (Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s)) To: jrv@Mitre-Bedford, SPACE@MIT-MC Subject: Re: Tropics Cc: >> Incidentally, the world shifted to the Gregorian calendar at varying >> times. The Roman Catholic world did it first, in the 16th Century -- but >> that was after the Schism, and so England didn't follow suit. For 200 years >> England's calendar trailed the European by first 9, then 10, then 11 days. >> England finally converted in the mid-18th Century, to riots (11 days were >> dropped from the calendar at the stroke of a pen)... > >I believe the reason for the riots was that people were forced to pay a whole >month's rent for the short month. Rents in those days were charged by the quarter. Anyway, you're right, but that was, sad to say, secondary. People were really upset because they'd been made 11 days older at the stroke of a pen..."Give us back our 11 days", they cried... A notable exception to this nonsense was an American planter named Washington. In the middle of the kerfuffle, he simply changed his birthdate in the family bible from February 11 to February 22. An eminently sensible individual. Rick. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!uw-june!entropy!dataio!braman From: dataio!braman (Rick Braman) Subject: re: Would a candle... Date: 1 Aug 85 07:51:43 GMT Organization: Data I/O Corp., Redmond WA > > > ...the current space program uses a pure O2 atmosphere... > > "That turns out not to be the case." Apollo and Gemini and Mercury used > pure O2, but even on those, it was at reduced pressure in space so that the > partial pressure of O2 was about the same as on Earth. While sitting on the > pad, it was a different story, the complete telling of which would include > the Apollo I fire. > ^^^^^^^^ > ARPA: fisher%dvinci.dec@decwrl.ARPA Don't you mean Apollo 7? -- o | " Go catch a thermal! " | | _________oOo_________ x O O x \xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxO Oxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/ O O OoO uw-beaver!entropy!dataio!braman -- Usenet Rick Braman Data I/O Corp Redmond WA 206-885-5851 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!mcnc!akgua!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!phoenix!brent From: phoenix!brent (Brent P. Callaghan) Subject: Re: Shuttle atmosphere Date: 31 Jul 85 14:04:05 GMT Organization: AT&T Information Systems, Lincroft NJ >The current space program uses a 100% O2 atmosphere. If you lit a >flame in such an atmosphere, would all the dust and other random >particles ignite in the presence of the flame? Correction: The space shuttle uses a nitrogen/oxygen mixture at only slightly reduced pressure. The Soviets have always used nitrogen/oxygen at 15 psi. For an EVA, the shuttle pressure suits supply 100% O2 at greatly reduced pressure. Mission specialists prepare for an EVA by pre-breathing pure oxygen to purge nitrogen from their bodies. and avoid the bends. -- Made in New Zealand --> Brent Callaghan AT&T Information Systems, Lincroft, NJ {ihnp4|mtuxo|pegasus}!phoenix!brent (201) 576-3475 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!hplabs!ames!eugene From: ames!eugene (Eugene Miya) Subject: Re: Answer to: What do you call the "blockhouse" now? Date: 30 Jul 85 17:57:19 GMT Organization: NASA-Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA We did not receive the referenced articles as our news feed was down. > OK trivia buffs: what kind of computers (manufacturer, operating > system, etc.) do they have in the LCC and launch pedestal? > > Cheers, > Lindsay > > Lindsay Cleveland (akgua!glc) (404) 447-3909 Cornet 583-3909 > AT&T Technologies/Bell Laboratories ... Atlanta, Ga I have not been to KSC, but I believe the majority of main machines are a combination of IBM 370-class machines running a home grown system and several hundred MODCOMP-IIs, IVs, and CLASSICs running different versions of the MAX operating system. There are a few PDP-11s and VAX/VMS systems, some VARIAN 620f and Univacs V73s and 1100s. By the way, I was at the ACM booth at SIGGRAPH, and there is an excellent article in a recent issue of the Annuals of Computing on NASA space computers. It mentions the use of magnetic tape drives at a time when everybody else is using disk drives. --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,decwrl,allegra}!ames!aurora!eugene emiya@ames-vmsb ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!hplabs!ames!aurora!al From: aurora!al (Al Globus) Subject: Re: Re: Answer to: What do you call the "blockhouse" now? Date: 30 Jul 85 23:28:29 GMT Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA > We did not receive the referenced articles as our news feed was down. > > > OK trivia buffs: what kind of computers (manufacturer, operating > > system, etc.) do they have in the LCC and launch pedestal? > > > > Cheers, > > Lindsay > > > > Lindsay Cleveland (akgua!glc) (404) 447-3909 Cornet 583-3909 > > AT&T Technologies/Bell Laboratories ... Atlanta, Ga > Related issue: JSC just bought a large number of MASSCOMP's running a real time version of UNIX to replace mission control computers. I don't know how the conversion is going or even if it will ever be accomplished. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!prls!amdimage!amdcad!amd!pesnta!phri!timeinc!dwight From: timeinc!dwight (Dwight Ernest) Subject: Shuttle 51F Ham Radio Opportunities Schedule Date: 31 Jul 85 20:15:25 GMT Reply-To: dwight@timeinc.UUCP (Dwight Ernest) Organization: Time, Inc. - New York [ Note from KA2CNN ...vax135!timeinc!dwight: No guarantees, but the METs (Mission Elapsed Times) shown below may still be good. --Dwight 850731, 20:10 UTC ] 4331 BN 4216 ALL WB2RVX WB2MNF 850729 Forwarded from WB2RVX at 0527z 521 BN 4139 ALL W3IWI WB2MNF 850729 Forwarded from W3IWI PBBS at 0258z 5795 BN 4073 ALL W3IWI WB2MNF 850729 STS-51F info (from ASR) The following is from Amateur Satellite Report #106 Shuttle 51F Operating Opportunities Announced NASA, AMSAT and ARRL have announced tentative operating opportunities for the mission of Tony England, W0ORE, and John-David Bartoe, W4NYZ. As previously detailed, actual voice operating time for the astronauts will be quite limited due to the heavy "official" workload. This is reflected in the schedule below with the majority of transmissions being SSTV scan converted images from the NASA on-board video. This will be the first occasion on which SSTV has originated on a shuttle. The majority of voice transmissions will be with previously scheduled clubs and youth groups. This arrangement is in accord with the express wishes of Tony England so as to make the most efficient use of the limited operating time available. The downlink frequency will be 145.55 MHz. If an open operating period is declared, you may attempt to QSO with the shuttle on 144.91, 144.97, 145.03 or 145.63 MHz. Listen to WA3NAN on the frequencies listed in ASR 105 for late breaking news on the operation. The following data is courtesy of NASA spokesperson Chuck Biggs, KC5RG. STS 51F Amateur Radio Opportunities Launch: July 29, 19:23 UTC MET UTC Orbit Start Stop Start Stop Mode d/hh:mm d/hh:mm d/hh:mm d/hh:mm ============================================================== 47 2/22:10 2/22:40 01/17:33 01/18:03 TV & Voice 48 2/23:45 3/00:15 01/19:08 01/19:38 TV 49 3/01:20 3/01:40 01/20:43 01/21:03 TV & Voice 50 3/02:45 3/03:45 01/22:08 01/23:08 TV 51 3/04:20 3/05:20 01/23:43 02/00:43 TV 52 3/05:50 3/06:30 02/01:13 02/01:53 TV 53 3/07:25 3/08:05 02/02:48 02/03:28 TV 54 3/09:00 3/09:30 02/04:23 01/04:53 TV 58 3/15:30 3/15:40 02/10:53 02/11:03 TV 62 3/21:30 3/21:40 02/16:53 02/17:03 TV 63 3/22:50 3/23:25 02/18:13 02/18:48 TV 64 4/00:20 4/01:00 02/19:43 02/20:23 TV 65 4/01:45 4/02:15 02/21:08 02/21:38 TV 66 4/03:25 4/03:50 02/22:48 02/23:13 TV 67 4/05:10 4/05:30 03/00:33 03/00:53 TV 68 4/06:25 4/07:05 03/01:48 03/02:28 TV 69 4/08:05 4/08:35 03/03:28 03/03:58 TV 73 4/14:30 4/14:45 03/09:53 03/10:08 TV 78 4/21:50 4/22:25 03/17:13 03/17:48 TV 79 4/23:25 4/23:55 03/18:48 03/19:18 TV & Voice 80 5/01:00 5/01:20 03/20:23 03/20:43 TV 81 5/02:25 5/02:55 03/21:48 03/22:18 TV 82 5/04:10 5/04:30 03/23:33 03/23:53 TV 83 5/05:25 5/05:35 04/00:48 04/00:58 CW 83 5/05:45 5/06:05 04/01:08 04/01:28 TV 84 5/07:05 5/07:40 4/02:28 04/03:03 TV 85 5/08:40 5/09:05 04/04:03 04/04:28 TV 86 5/11:20 5/11:30 04/06:43 04/06:53 TV 89 5/15:05 5/15:20 04/10:28 04/10:43 TV 93 5/21:05 5/21:25 04/16:28 04/16:48 TV & Voice 94 5/22:25 5/22:55 04/17:48 04/18:18 TV 95 6/00:00 6/00:20 04/19:23 04/19:43 TV & Voice 96 6/01:25 6/01:55 04/20:48 04/21:18 TV 97 6/03:00 6/03:30 04/22:23 04/22:53 TV 98 6/04:45 6/05:05 05/00:08 05/00:28 TV 99 6/06:05 6/06:40 05/01:28 05/02:03 TV 100 6/07:40 6/08:05 05/03:03 05/03:28 TV 101 6/10:20 6/10:25 05/05:43 05/05:48 TV 104 6/14:10 6/14:20 05/09:33 05/09:43 TV ================================================================= NOTES: 1. UTC day is day of the month of August. 2. This is revision B. 3. Offset from prior launch schedule (12 Jul 85, 20:30UTC) to current planned launch (29 Jul 85, 19:23 UTC): 16 days, 22 hours, 53 minutes. 4. MET is Mission Elapsed Time -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- --Dwight Ernest KA2CNN \ Usenet:...vax135!timeinc!dwight Time Inc. Edit./Prod. Tech. Grp., New York City Voice: (212) 554-5061 \ Compuserve: 70210,523 Telemail: DERNEST/TIMECOMDIV/TIMEINC \ MCI: DERNEST "The opinions expressed above are those of the writer and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Time Incorporated." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!gamma!epsilon!zeta!sabre!bellcore!petrus!karn From: petrus!karn (Phil R. Karn) Subject: W0ORE/Challenger heard at KA9Q Date: 1 Aug 85 23:31:58 GMT Organization: Bell Communications Research, Inc SSTV signals were copied at KA9Q from W0ORE aboard the space shuttle Challenger on two consecutive passes this afternoon (approx 5:30 and 7:15 pm EDT). With a KLM-14C and GaAsFET preamp, signals were good, but not overly strong (i.e, full quieting, but not pegging the meter). The signal is FM at 145.55 mHz and consists of slow scan television interspersed with the tone CW ID "W0ORE/CHALLENGER". Based on antenna pointing and doppler, tracking is about 1.5 minutes behind predictions based on the last set (set 5a) so it ought to be usable at least until a possible orbit change takes place tomorrow. As with the STS-9/W5LFL flight, PLEASE avoid any and all transmissions on 145.55 mHz! Phil ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: PDP Experiments Successful Date: 2 Aug 85 01:21:21 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill Challenger astronauts today zapped the plasma diagnostic package with an electron gun to simulate observed electron bolt exchanges between distant stars, and ground controllers said the experiment gathered ''fundamental data'' in helping to explain this phenomenon. The PDP also recorded ''fantastic wave effects'' of the Challenger passing through the ionosphere. Meanwhile, ground controllers were examining remaining fuel supplies aboard the shuttle in the hopes that its orbit might be raised by 8 to 10 miles. A decision is expected by Friday. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #229 ******************* 04-Aug-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #230 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 230 Today's Topics: Re: Re: Would a candle burn ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!utzoo!henry From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Re: Would a candle burn ... Date: 1 Aug 85 16:50:47 GMT Organization: U of Toronto Zoology Actually, I believe if you check you will find that while Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo used pure oxygen, Skylab did not and the Shuttle does not. They do run at somewhat lower pressure than Earth surface, so the mix is oxygen-rich relative to normal air, but there is a fair bit of nitrogen in it. This is why Shuttle astronauts going outside spend a long time pre-breathing pure oxygen (long enough that it's starting to be a serious nuisance): the space suits use pure oxygen at the lowest possible pressure, and the astronauts have to flush the nitrogen out of their bodies before they decompress to suit pressure. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #230 ******************* 06-Aug-85 0400 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #231 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 231 Today's Topics: Latest STS-51F elements precession of the equinoxes Lazarus Long, Space Midwife Re: calendar Was that bright thing in the sky..... Re: space telescope Shuttle Space to be Auctioned Orbit to Remain at ~190 Miles Re: Challenger's ATO Re: Shuttle abort procedures question Re: Many Shuttle Missions Re: Re: Would a candle burn ... Latest STS-51 keplerian elements IPS Working Chile Agrees to Provide Easter Island for Emergency Landings Re: Shuttle abort procedures question Re: Abort to Orbit Re: Would a candle burn ... Re: Chile Agrees to Provide Easter Island for Emergency Landings Re: Tropics Re: Shuttle Engine Starting Re: Re: Would a candle burn ... Spacelab Newsconference Shuttle News Conference Re: Answer to: What do you call the "blockhouse" now? Re: Would a candle burn ... Re: Abort to Orbit Spacelab News Conference Re: Orphaned Response Difference between 0g and immersion Re: Answer to: What do you call the "blockhouse" now? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sunday, 4 Aug 1985 08:02-EDT From: jrv@Mitre-Bedford To: SPACE@mit-mc Subject: Latest STS-51F elements Thanks for the orbit elements - please continue to post them. (Now, if I can just get a program written to use them to calculate the current position...) - Jim Van Zandt ------------------------------ Date: Sun 4 Aug 85 18:48:00-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: precession of the equinoxes To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: firth@TL-20B.ARPA First, to set the record straight, the precession of the equinoxes was discovered by Hipparkhos in about 150 BC. The phenomenon has nothing to do with the earth's axial tilt, which does change, but only slightly. It rather concerns the direction the axis points in space, which makes a slow circle once every 22000 years or so, thereby taking the pole star from Polaris round to Vega. This of course makes no difference to the terrestrial seasons, which depend on the relative positions of earth and sun, and therefore no difference to any true solar calendar, ie one that sets its starting point with reference to something like the winter solstice. However, what does change is the relative position of sun and stars at any given season; thus, in Hipparkhos' time the vernal equinox began as the sun entered the Zodiacal sign of Pisces, whereas 2000 years earlier it had occurred when the sun entered Aries (and by about 2050 I think the sun will still be in Aquarius). This of course makes nonsense of traditional astrology; since no astrologer seems to have looked at the real sky in several millenia, the dates given in your daily paper for 'Aries' &c are wildly wrong. Interestingly, one calendar WAS subject to discombobulation by the precession of the equinoxes: the Egyptian calendar, which set the new year at the time of the heliacal rising of the star Sirius, at which time the Nile was supposed to flood. Well, between Narmer and Ptolemy I the precession had moved this date by almost 7 weeks through the solar year. For this and other reasons, Ptolemy V Epiphanes replaced the calendar with one that took the vernal equinox as the new year, keeping however the 12 'months' and the five intercalary days; it was this calendar that, on the advice of the astronomer Sosigenes, Julius Caesar introduced to Rome, and which became essentially the Julian calendar. On the motion of the poles: the magnetic poles move around all the time, but I don't think anyone believes the true poles move. There is an SF book, The HAB Theory, built arond the idea that the poles suddenly move a large distance in a catastrophic manner (or maybe the poles stay in the same place but the earth's crust moves; the book isn't clear on this). Naturally, such an event wrecks civilisations, &c, so if you think one is coming, sell your orichalcum-mining stock and build a deep shelter some place like the Andes, for convenient later discovery by E von Daeniken. The book is very long and very bad, but has a lot of fun fabricating "evidence" in support of the "theory" Robert Firth ------- ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw From: rtp47!throopw (Wayne Throop) Subject: Lazarus Long, Space Midwife Date: 2 Aug 85 18:07:59 GMT Organization: Data General, RTP, NC > _Time_Enough_for_Love_ by Heinlein had an interesting scene involving a > delivery aboard a spaceship. So far so good. But I have a few relatively unimportant points to clarify below. > For the most part, travel took place in zero g, Nope, the trip was all in 1-G "comfort"... artificial gravity don't y'know. > but during the delivery Lazarus Long (the protagonist of the whole book, > I don't remember the woman's name but I think she was his current wife) She was simply a passenger. Lazarus had liberated her and her genetically unrelated twin brother (trust me) from slavery on an unsavory planet. > fired the ships rockets (actually I think they were variable thrusters > so that the transition was smooth) He boosted the artifical gravity to 2 Gs over a period of a couple of seconds. > at the appropriate moment so that the baby, in effect, had a > "gravity assist." This is the crucial point, and is quite correct. However, this was *not* an assist for a zero-g delivery, but rather a convenience for a normal delivery in a squatting position. At some convenient moment after dialation, the gravity was increased to ease and shorten the labor. It isn't totally clear whether 2 Gs during delivery would be a good idea or not, but is a facinating possibility for assisting a difficult delivery (or even a normal one, I suppose) without using forceps. -- Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC !mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!dual!ptsfa!well!micropro!kepler!mojo From: kepler!mojo (Morris Jones) Subject: Re: calendar Date: 2 Aug 85 17:09:29 GMT Reply-To: mojo@kepler.UUCP (mojo) Organization: MicroPro Int'l Corp., San Rafael, CA > Yea. We have a leap second periodically to even out the flaws in >the Gregorian calendar. Just had one this year, in fact. I thought the leap seconds were to keep Coordinated Universal Time in sync within a second of astronomical time. Mojo MicroPro ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-katadn!bottom From: bottom@katadn.DEC Subject: Was that bright thing in the sky..... Date: 2 Aug 85 23:34:31 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Last night (1 Aug) at about 8:45 pm we sighted a bright object traveling very fast over our area (Augusta Maine). I wondered if it was the Shuttle. Can anyone help me? How could I find out? Please reply by email as I don't subscribe to this newsgroup. Thank you very much. Dave Bottom Digital Augusta Maine !dec-rhea!dec-katadn!bottom usnail:RFD#3 Box 892 Augusta Maine 04330 (207) 623-6935 "it is indeed a goddamn noisy box but you must call it a stereovision reciever" ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!decwrl!sun!saber!jc From: saber!jc (John Cincotta) Subject: Re: space telescope Date: 2 Aug 85 17:57:49 GMT Organization: Saber Technology, San Jose, CA > From: > > The space telescope planned for launch in the near future > will have two tubes on it, a red and a blue tube, according > to one of the technicians on the project. This sounds > like it may have something to do with red shift and blue > shift. Can anyone confirm this? *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** i just last night looked at an article in sky and tell about the space teliscope and it implyed that there were two "digicons" on the two spectrographs that had different sensitive elements on them (bi vs tri alkali) i seem to recall that this makes one sensitive into the ir ant the other is good into the uv John Cincotta Saber Tech san jose 408 945 9600 voice ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Shuttle Space to be Auctioned Date: 2 Aug 85 12:04:50 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill President Reagan has ordered that NASA, beginning in fiscal 1988, auction cargo space on the shuttle to foreign and commercial customers. The minimum bid on a full payload bay would be $74M; a shuttle flight costs $71M. Three shuttle equivalent payloads (1 SEP == 1 full payload bay) are to be sold per year, and NASA is then allowed to sell any remaining space. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Orbit to Remain at ~190 Miles Date: 2 Aug 85 12:06:07 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill NASA has decided against raising Challenger's orbit, as it would take too much time away from scientific experiments to be worthwhile. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Re: Challenger's ATO Date: 2 Aug 85 12:09:11 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill ATO is a fourth abort option. TAL (transatlantic abort) would have been used, except that Challenger was already 33 seconds past the furthest point from which it could do this. AOA would have been used had Challenger not been able to achieve a stable orbit (note that before the OMS burn, the orbit was 129 by 3 (!!) miles). ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!dual!qantel!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Re: Shuttle abort procedures question Date: 2 Aug 85 00:01:33 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill The shuttle, believe it or not, is designed to float for a while in water. So a water landing, assuming its controlled, does not necessarily mean doom for the crew. An engine blowing up, though, almost certainly does (if you've ever seen the films of the explosions encountered when the ME's were in testing phase, you know what I mean). Also, the shuttle can land on any runway that is at least 10,000 feet long. This means almost every major airport in the world. Of course, it's not the most desireable situation, but again, it beats and explosion. In short, in any circumstance I can think of, I would think NASA would want to make an emergency landing somewhere rather than risk a blowup. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!ut-ngp!kjm From: kjm@ut-ngp.UTEXAS (Ken Montgomery) Subject: Re: Many Shuttle Missions Date: 4 Aug 85 04:29:15 GMT Organization: UTexas Computation Center, Austin, Texas >Also has NASA ever handle the launch of more than one >manned vehicle? I'm sure they didn't during the >Mercury project. I think they didn't during Gemini. Gemini 6 and 7 were aloft at the same time. One of the two (I forget which one) was used as the rendezvous target for the other, since the Agena it was to dock with failed. -- Ken Montgomery "Shredder-of-hapless-smurfs" ...!{ihnp4,allegra,seismo!ut-sally}!ut-ngp!kjm [Usenet, when working] kjm@ut-ngp.ARPA [for Arpanauts only] ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!decwrl!greipa!pesnta!lsuc!mnetor!fred From: mnetor!fred (Fred Williams) Subject: Re: Re: Would a candle burn ... Date: 1 Aug 85 14:09:06 GMT Reply-To: fred@mnetor.UUCP (Fred Williams) Organization: Computer X (CANADA) Ltd., Toronto, Ontario, Canada In article <1816@aecom.UUCP> werner@aecom.UUCP (Craig Werner) writes: >> > ... in space? > > You'd have to ask the Russians. As long as the Americans use a pure >Oxygen atmosphere (they did thru Skylab, and I believe they still do), this >is one experiment that is not going to be done on the shuttle. > Craig Werner I understand that the oxygen environment is at 1/5 atmospheric pressure. It therefore exerts the same pressure as the partial pressure of oxygen at ground level. Otherwise it would upset the blood chemistry of the astronauts. Burning can then be expected to take place with no more or less violence than here on earth. Whether this is acceptable to shuttle astronauts is another matter. Fires do happen on earth and if one were to start aboard the shuttle it would be of little use to calmly walk to the nearest exit. Also to perform the experiment the fans used to circulate the air on the shuttle would have to be shut down, and the air given a time to settle. Disturbances due to breathing could probably be tolerated and it would not be too much of a problem for people there to breath carefully to avoid inhaling the same air they just exhaled. It would only take a minute or two for the experiment anyway. I think it would be a good bit of PR to televise back to earth. Cheers, Fred Williams ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!gamma!epsilon!zeta!sabre!bellcore!petrus!karn From: petrus!karn (Phil R. Karn) Subject: Latest STS-51 keplerian elements Date: 2 Aug 85 16:48:20 GMT Organization: Bell Communications Research, Inc Satellite: sts-51f Catalog number: 0 Epoch time: 85213.62777778 Thu Aug 1 15:04:00.0 1985 UTC Element set: 8-1 Inclination: 49.6015 deg RA of node: 140.5160 deg Eccentricity: 0.0003231 Arg of perigee: 328.8386 deg Mean anomaly: 317.7854 deg Mean motion: 15.85320600 rev/day Decay rate: 0.00025 rev/day^2 Epoch rev: 44 Semi major axis: 6694.419 km Anom period: 90.833362 min Apogee: 321.758 km Perigee: 317.432 km Ref perigee: 2769.63517457 Thu Aug 1 15:14:39.82 1985 UTC ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: IPS Working Date: 3 Aug 85 05:31:06 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill The Challenger crew today repaired the cranky instrument pointing system, after which the IPS successfully locked onto the sun and maintained its aim while its telescopes recorded data on sunspots. The system, able to track a moving coin 400 miles away, will be used next spring to observe Halleys comet. Its test is considered the most important goal of this mission. So elated were ground scientists at the success that they requested a one day extension of the mission. NASA, however, refused this request, as it would cut into the 48 hour supply of emergency fuel that mission rules insist be available in case the shuttle has to stay up for a longer period of time than planned. Landing is now scheduled for around1 1700 EDT Monday at EAFB. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Chile Agrees to Provide Easter Island for Emergency Landings Date: 3 Aug 85 05:33:17 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill The U.S. and Chile today signed an eight year pact under which Chile will allow NASA to modify the runway on Easter Island for use in case of an emergency shuttle landing there. NASA will be able to keep people there and, in an actual emergency, send up to 450 specialists at one time. The pact grants only the present four shuttles landing priviledges and only as long as they are owned and operated by NASA. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!dual!qantel!ihnp4!riccb!rjnoe From: riccb!rjnoe (Roger J. Noe ) Subject: Re: Shuttle abort procedures question Date: 2 Aug 85 13:10:56 GMT Organization: Starfleet Command > From: (Richard Kenner) > > I have a question about the programming of the Shuttle abort procedures. > While listening to yesterday's ATO, I heard a "1 engine TAL" call a while > after the ATO started. That's "one-engine TAO" for Transatlantic Abort. Should they lose a second engine before that call, they'd get very wet. But I'd rather be in a shuttle orbiter landing on the ocean surface than in an airliner. -- Roger Noe ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!utzoo!henry From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Abort to Orbit Date: 2 Aug 85 18:21:25 GMT Organization: U of Toronto Zoology NASA is looking at flight refuelling for the shuttle-carrier 747, in fact, because there are some possible emergency landing sites which are not within 747+shuttle range of another airport. Aborting a polar-orbit launch from Vandenberg, for example, you end up on one of a few small islands way the hell out in the Pacific. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!utzoo!henry From: utzoo!henry (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Would a candle burn ... Date: 2 Aug 85 19:04:44 GMT Organization: U of Toronto Zoology > >Uh, wrong. The atmosphere is far from 100% O2. Remember the > >accident that killed four astronauts? That was the last time > >pure O2 was used, and that was many years ago. > > That was the last time O2 was used at full atmospheric pressure. > I had been under the impression that afterwards, on launch they > used 80% nitrogen & 20% oxygen. The mixture then reduced to pure > oxygen at much lower pressure during boost phase. More specifically, the Apollo flights all started out with the cabin full of 80/20 mix and the astronauts breathing pure oxygen (through either oxygen masks or their spacesuits, not sure which). The cabin atmosphere changed to pure oxygen during boost. The astronauts had to be breathing pure oxygen from the start to avoid decompression problems. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!im4u!bradley From: im4u!bradley Subject: Re: Chile Agrees to Provide Easter Island for Emergency Landings Date: 4 Aug 85 20:05:07 GMT Reply-To: bradley@im4u.UUCP (David K. Bradley) Organization: U. Texas CS Dept., Austin, Texas Summary: Heads in Danger? In article <4102@alice.UUCP> alb@alice.UUCP (Adam L. Buchsbaum) writes: >The U.S. and Chile today signed an eight year pact under which >Chile will allow NASA to modify the runway on Easter Island for >use in case of an emergency shuttle landing there. A while back someone posted an article stating that the giant heads on Easter Island would be in danger if the runway on the island was extended. Does anybody know if this is still true? -- David K. Bradley ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Science Department, The University of Texas at Austin bradley@ut-sally.UUCP {ihnp4,harvard,gatech,ctvax,seismo}!ut-sally!bradley ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!dual!qantel!hplabs!sdcrdcf!markb From: sdcrdcf!markb (Mark Biggar) Subject: Re: Tropics Date: 31 Jul 85 16:37:20 GMT Reply-To: markb@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Mark Biggar) Organization: System Development Corp. R+D, Santa Monica In article <2849@mordor.UUCP> @S1-A.ARPA,@MIT-MC.ARPA:mcgeer%ucbkim@Berkeley writes: > Incidentally, the world shifted to the Gregorian calendar at varying >times. The Roman Catholic world did it first, in the 16th Century -- but >that was after the Schism, and so England didn't follow suit. For 200 years >England's calendar trailed the European by first 9, then 10, then 11 days. >England finally converted in the mid-18th Century, to riots (11 days were >dropped from the calendar at the stroke of a pen). Russia converted after >the Bolshevik revolution; this is why the "October revolution" was really >held, by Western calendars, in November. The British changeover (here to as we were still colonies) happened in 1752 (try running "cal 1752" and looking at Sep). If I had been there I would have rioted too. People didn't object to the dropping of the days form the calandar, what they objected to was that all the landlords were charging a full months rent for Sep even though it was 11 days short. Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Re: Shuttle Engine Starting Date: 3 Aug 85 16:28:56 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill The sparks you see are to ignite any hydrogen that may have leaked before ignition. The engines each have their own ignition system; they ignite separately, 120 milliseconds apart, in the computer controlled sequence. They do not ignite again after launch because (1) there is no more fuel left once in orbit and (2) the main engines are not designed to be reignited. The solids, too, have their own ignition devices. The solid fuel is basically an aluminum powder. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!hplabs!utah-cs!b-davis From: utah-cs!b-davis (Brad Davis) Subject: Re: Re: Would a candle burn ... Date: 2 Aug 85 15:56:23 GMT Reply-To: b-davis@utah-cs.UUCP (Brad Davis) Organization: University of Utah VCIS Group In article <65@ssc-vax.UUCP>: >The current space program uses a 100% O2 atmosphere. If you lit a >flame in such an atmosphere, would all the dust and other random >particles ignite in the presence of the flame? > >In article <1816@aecom.UUCP> werner@aecom.UUCP (Craig Werner) writes: >> You'd have to ask the Russians. As long as the Americans use a pure >>Oxygen atmosphere (they did thru Skylab, and I believe they still do), this >>is one experiment that is not going to be done on the shuttle. > >I thought we stopped using 100% O2 after the Apollo 13 disaster. Can >someone confirm the current state of such? > Are you sure about this? At the beginning of the Apollo program we were using close to a 100% O2 atmosphere (90+%) and lost 3 astronauts during a test when a fire swept through the capsule. (I think it was Apollo 3.) NASA decided that they might have been saved had the atmosphere been less O2. I think that the Russians used a He - O2 mixture at the time. I also think that NASA changed after that. A 100% O2 mixture would burn the astronauts lungs. The biggest reason for using a high concentration of O2 is that the pressure of the cabin can be kept lower, simplifing sealing the cabin. -- Brad Davis {ihnp4, decvax, seismo}!utah-cs!b-davis b-davis@utah-cs.ARPA ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 5 Aug 85 20:36:11 PDT To: crash!noscvax!space@mit-mc Subject: Spacelab Newsconference Science News Conference - Spacelab 2 Tuesday 7/30 *Ron Lester: I'll start by giving you a brief status of theSpacelab systems. I'll talk briefly about each of theexperiments. I'll also discuss the mission planning thatwe're doing for perhaps some additional time on the PDP(Note: Ejectable Plasma Diagnostic Package usesinstruments on a subsatellite to study plasma processes).The Spacelab systems were activated pretty much on time.The backup computer, which is now serving as the experimentcomputer came up on schedule and its been performingflawlessly. We've had two drop offs of the DDU's (note:don't know what this is), we had a similar situation onSpacelab 3. The instrument pointing system, we've got itup, we have had difficulty with the optical sensingpackage - turning the package onto the Sun in the fineguided mode (note: The SOUP or Solar Magnetic And VelocityField Measurement System will observe the strength,structure, and evolution of magnetic fields in the solaratmosphere and determine the relationship between thesemagnetic elements and other solar features). I'll tell youlater about some of the trouble shooting activitiesassociated with that. We are convinced by the fact that theCoronal Helium Experiments (Note: CHASE, the coronal heliumabundance spacelab exp will accurately determine the heliumabundance of the Sun) was able to, operating within thecontrol loop of the IPS (instrument pointing system) was infact able to acquire the Sun, and in fact, he's got data,and as a matter of fact, tommorrow morni ng will get some ofthe data that they have already obtained. With respect tothe physics experiment, the optical polarimeter (Note:SOUP), we do have a problem with the pilot system. The guysare still trouble shooting it, both here (Houston) andback at Lockheed. But currently, it is not operating, itdid come up and operate for some 15 minutes, but it droppedoff line and to date we have not been successful withtrouble shooting approaches. But the guys are working onit, the IPS is not due back up until one day 14. TheCoronal Helium Exp. has been taking data, even from thedegraded mode of the instruments on the system. The HighResolution Telescope (Note: HRTS Solar Ultraviolet HighResolution Telescope studies features in the Sun's outerlayers; the chromosphere, the corona, and the transitionzone between them) has yet to start taking data, it hascompleted its checkout. He did have a heater fail on it, hedeactivated the system, we really don't anticipate thatca using a problem once we get operational. He will be uptommorrow when we reactivate the IPS and we fully expectthat he will operate. I'll discuss later some of theconsequences of not being able to get the optical sensingpackage up and operating. We feel we can still obtain thescience on the solar experiment by the use of the HRTSexperiment. The ITS (?) is stowed now, so obviously has notbeen taking data now. PDP (Plasma Diagnosics Package) hasbeen activated, it continually takes data .. we did firethe elect ron generator (Note: the PDP can be placed nearvehicle surfaces to measure changes in the Shuttle'selectrical charge as a generator emits an electron beam)and the plasma diagnostic people did pick up the results.On the Plasma Depletion Experiment (Note: thisinvestigation uses the Shuttle as an active experimentalprobe to create artificial "holes" in the ionosphere.Ground observatories use radio and optics to study theplasma characteristics and conduct radio astronomicalstudies through them) we've had two s uccessful burns, oneover Milstone, the other over Areceibo in Puerto Rico. Weoriginally had some seven burns or so scheduled. Based onsome very recent data we've got, it looks like we may beable to re-instate some of those burns. The cosmic rayexperiment (Note: CRNE Elemental Compositon and EnergySpectra of Cosmic Ray Nuclei Between 50 GeV/ nucleon andseveral TeV/ nucleon - to study the composition of highenergy cosmic rays by using a large instrument exposed tospace for a considerable period of time) star ted takingdata almost immediately and has continued to take data. Itoperates in somewhat of a passive mode. The X-Ray telescope(Note: XRT Hard X-Ray Imaging of Clusters of Galaxies andOther Extended X-Ray Sources - the goal of thisinvestigation is to image and examine the X-ray emissionsfrom clusters of galaxies in order to study the mechanismsthat cause high temperature emissions and to determine theweight of galactic clusters) is up and running. And I guesshe's quite happy, for the next 16 hrs. he can op eratewithout the place and avoidance (?) being invoked which isprotection between the X-Ray telescope and InstrumentPointing System when they operate simultaneously. But sinceIPS is in the gimbal lock, he is unrestricted and will betaking data for the next 16 hrs. The X-Ray telescopechecked their drive systems. The Helium experiment (Note:Properties of Superfluid Helium in Zero Gravity - todetermine the fluid and thermal properties of superfluidhelium, to advance scientific understanding of superfluidand normal liquid helium, and to demonstrate the use ofsuperfluid helium as a cryogen in zero gravity). That's theexperiment that just prior to launch on July 4th, we had tomake a decision to de-activate a pump, it started leakingoil in the cargo bay, we would have probably lost theexperiment had we launched on the 12th. So that's a plusfor the delay. The Plant Growth Unit (PGU - to determinethe effect of microgravity upon the production of lignin inhigher p lants) which is in the middeck, it pretty much doesits own thing. The crew periodically monitors temperaturesand some other measurements. The vitamin B experiment andcrystal growth experiment are on-going. That's pretty muchthe status of the experiments. With the exception of thepolarimeter experiment, the team is elated with how thingsare going. * We have also been told that we have some 1400lbs of propellant (more than we thought) and this makes asignificant differences as to what we can do. Variousoptio ns are being looked at, at this time. Most like use isfor one of the three originally planned fly arounds withthe PDP. This will make two fly arounds. Raising thealtitude is unlikely since the amount of surplus fuel wouldbe unlikely to contribute to the science being obtained.The experiment most effected by the altitude is the coronalhelium experiment. But he has obtained some very good dataat the altitude he's working at. Obviously, we're lookingat a full duration mission. ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 5 Aug 85 20:58:38 PDT To: crash!noscvax!space@mit-mc Subject: Shuttle News Conference Shuttle Spacelab Orbit News Conference 8/1During the last shift, we were wrapping up, what we callPDP POCCs operation, where we go out and actually flyaround the PDP. We flew around it twice, we got a lot ofscience data that we'll talk to you about later. We linedup the orbiter and the PDP on the magnetic lines of theEarth. The crew did an excellent job in doing that, thepropellant used was nominal, it was below 1 sigma, we camevery close to the place that we wanted to hit, and the crewcommented that they actually could see the electron gunwhen it was fired travelling up and hitting the PDP. Wewent back and picked it up, it is now parked out over thewing of the orbitter garthering more data. We picked upsome more science data using CCFD (crew control free drift)and I believe we're trying to point three differentfacillities all at the same time within a little bandwithout firing any jets. And we've worked up a program onthe ground that basically lets the orbitter take a look andsee where it was over the Eart h, see what kind of forceswould be acting up on it, so that the crew could then takethose forces and start the orbitter in motion away, and asthe forces acted on the orbitter, then come back through ina dead band that was big enough to get all the targets thatthe science people wanted without actually firing the jets.And they got science readings for about 15 1/2 minuteswithout any jet firings and were able to get real goodobservations. With respect to IPS (instrument pointingunit) really all of it is tied up in initial acquisitionand it deals with sun intensity and it also has a bearingon the fact that we take the star tracker and break thesun's image up into four different images, and reverse thepolarity, and we use that to focus the sun, so we need toknow the diameter of the sun, and make intensity typecomputations, and determine the offset pointing that weneed for the tracker. Since yesterday, we've taken a lookat more data, and as a matter of fact, we've loaded somecheckout software into the IPS, gathe red more data by theuse of that checkout software, and the guys at Marshallhave taken a look at that data, and they think that data isgood. We're in the process of developing a couple of morepatches in the IPS which is determining the atitudedetermination, so that we will have a better chance ofacquiring and the other is to change some more callibrationdata that is on-board. We will probably load this packagelater today. We're also looking at raising th e orbit somemore, that is in the work now. It probably wouldn't be fora day or so. ** As you may recall, after liftoff we lostthe computer redundancy. We have since not experienced anydifficulties (with the computer) whatsoever, and we havealternate means of compensating for any difficulty duringthe flight. We're quite pleased with the performance ofSpacelab so far, there's the fundamental system, thecomputers, all the mechanical systems, the thermocontrolsystems, have performed completely nominally, they' veperformed just as expected. We have run into to only onemajor problem, that is the IPS in the fine pointing mode(note: the IPS has been repaired since this report waslogged). The IPS is working in an alternate mode which wasdesigned into the IPS. To use an experiment sensorsubstitute mode, that is we take a sensor that is rotatedand provided by the instrument, tie it into the IPS controlsystem, set it in a closed loop, and point in that fashion.This alternate mode of operation gives us good pointing ands tability. The problem that we have run into is isolated tothe optical sensor package, that is a sensor that looks atthe sun, the other two sensors are looking off to the sideacquiring stars. What we are seeing in the sun trackingmode, is it acquires nicely, just as programs - down to therough tracking mode, it then starts toward isolating andcentering in on the sun, and its going towards the finetracking mode which gives the very fine pointing accuracy.Just as we get to the fine pointing part, just as wetr ansition from rough to fine, we see that an error existsout of the star tracker into a software filter that'slocated in the subsystem computer. It immediately recognizean error some what beyond its control authority, andimmediately kicks us back into the rough pointing. When weuse sensor substitution mode, we come right into finetracking, so we're continuing troubleshooting... We'retrying to trouble shoot this problem without impacting theuseful science being obtained in the sensor substitionmode. Now I'll give a summary of the science of the lastday, we began to see real time television interviews fromthe high resolution telescope and spectograph instrument,being used in the sensor substitution mode on theinstrument pointing system. He's getting better than twoarc seconds pointing stability in this mode... Secondinteresting thing was the spectacular fly around of theplasma diagnostics package and its recovery. And the jointobserving that was done during operations between theplasma diagnostics package and the vehicle charging andpotential experiment. The PDP has been recaptured and isnow in a standby mode taking data off to the side of theorbiter. Third was the first scientific operation of theinfared telescope. The scanning of the sky with the Shuttlein the XDV (?) mode, with the shuttle essentially as anairplane with the payload bay directly away from the Earth.Experiment 8, the SOUP has not yet been turned on. TheCHASE experiment, continues to operate very well. Exp 10,the High Resolution Telescope have continued to take gooddata of the hydrogen alpha that come down directly on thetelevision and can also be used by the crew and allow thecrew to point automatic systems. The crew control freedrift mode provides the best pointing stability, becausethere are no thruster firings to change the atitude duringthose operations. When we're on automatic thruster atitudecontrol, sometimes the bumbing of the vernier thrusterscauses the control to jump to a few more arc seconds, 4 to5 arc seconds, and so its clear the cruise control freedrift mode is a very good one for investigators. Experiment11 continues to take spectra. It still has a thermalproblem being evaluated in the hot orbit data facing theSun. HRTS did have a thermal problem, it seems to havecleared up. The Plasma Diagnostics Package, all theinstruments continue to operate very well. They havebeautiful display systems providing the data in colorvideo, in real time. The vehicle charging and potentialexperi ment has fired the electron generator a number oftimes, the crew has seen the beam being produced, and atone time saw it travelling out along the magnetic fieldlines of the Earth, which at that time was connecting theorbiter with the PDP. The Plasma Depletion Experiment doesnot have any more engine firing schedules during thisimmediate period. Cosmic Ray Nuclei experiment had aproblem yesterday with its on board computer processor. Itwent down at a time when the count rate was very high, andthe radiation levels may have been a bit high and at thetime we were in the plasma diagnostic fly around mode, sothere was no way to get commands up to the cosmic raynuclei experiment to reconfigure it and turn it back on.That has since been accomplished, and the instrument isback up and running. Infared telescope (exp 5) began togather data yesterday for the first time, all of theinstrument systems seem to be working very well. There areseveral wavelength bands in t he detection system, the highand low wavelength bands are operating very well. We aregoing to be able to map the sky in the 2 to 3 micrometerinfrared wavelength band and the 4.5 to 9.5 micrometerwavelength bands and gather maps of the sky that were notpossible in the Infared Astronomical Satellite program.These wavelengths were not included on IRAS, so this willbe new infrared map data. The middle channels of theInfared telescope are seeing a very high, very brightbackground, and we're just now trying to u nderstand theorigin of that signal, we will be doing perhaps someadditional maneuvers of the orbitter and using differentscan directions, try to resolve the source. The heliumexperiment continues to operate very well. X-ray telescopecontinuing to gather solid data. Looking primarily at thePerseus cluster of X-ray emitting gas and also had anopportunity to look at the crab nebulae which is acalibration source for them. Just looked at it briefly andfound that the intensities that their instruments saw werees sentially exactly as they had anticipated, indicating thesensitivity of the instrument is right on design. They havea viewing camera which provides them with a reading ofexactly where they're pointed on the sky. The visual imageis put into their digital data stream and brought down tothe ground for processing. The camera has had a fewproblems, it turns itself off occassionally. It also hassome kind of contamination on its lens. Without thatcamera, they have a back up photo camera which can alsoprovide the data they need. But it is limited on the amountof real time analysis possible. But the accuracy of theirdata has not been impaired. The Vitamin D metaboliseexperiment continues. Samples have been taken and put inthe freezer and samples will be taken again at the end ofthe mission. Plant growth unit has been monitoredphotographically. The crystal growth experiment wasmonitored operationally. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!timeinc!phri!roy From: phri!roy (Roy Smith) Subject: Re: Answer to: What do you call the "blockhouse" now? Date: 3 Aug 85 14:58:01 GMT Organization: Public Health Research Inst. (NY, NY) > there is an excellent article in a recent issue of the Annuals of > Computing on NASA space computers. It mentions the use of magnetic tape > drives at a time when everybody else is using disk drives. > --eugene miya If you are interested in the subject of space computers, take a look at CACM, Vol 27, #9 (Sept 1984). To quote from "The Space Shuttle Primary Computer System" by Spector and Gifford in that issue (copyright (C) 1984 by The Association for Computing Machinery, Inc.): AS. Is the memory core? Macina. Yes, it's ferrite core. By today's standards it seems outdated, but it does have certain advantages; for instance, it's inherently nonvolatile when power is removed. I believe core is also much less sensitive to cosmic radiation etc. than semiconductor memory is. Surprisingly enough, the on-board computers are rather non-impressive in terms of computing power; the standard cpu on the shuttle is about a 1/2 MIPS machine. They are designed not to be fast, but to be non-crashable. You cretins arguing SysV vs. 4.2 for better stability will notice that neither system is used on the shuttle. :-) -- Roy Smith System Administrator, Public Health Research Institute 455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!prls!amdimage!amdcad!amd!pesnta!lsuc!utcs!mnetor!fred From: mnetor!fred (Fred Williams) Subject: Re: Would a candle burn ... Date: 2 Aug 85 14:02:07 GMT Reply-To: fred@mnetor.UUCP (Fred Williams) Organization: Computer X (CANADA) Ltd., Toronto, Ontario, Canada In article <440@olivee.UUCP> gnome@olivee.UUCP (Gary Traveis) writes: (from somebody.)... >> The current space program uses a 100% O2 atmosphere. If you lit a >> flame in such an atmosphere, would all the dust and other random >> particles ignite in the presence of the flame? >> > >Uh, wrong. The atmosphere is far from 100% O2. Remember the >accident that killed four astronauts? That was the last time >pure O2 was used, and that was many years ago. That was the last time O2 was used at full atmospheric pressure. I had been under the impression that afterwards, on launch they used 80% nitrogen & 20% oxygen. The mixture then reduced to pure oxygen at much lower pressure during boost phase. In the past few days there have been several postings declaring an O2-N2 mixture is standard throughout shuttle flights. This could very well be the case. I could be out of date. Regardless, the risk of fire from a candle experiment would not be increased by the shuttle air. I don't think. Cheers, Fred Williams ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!prls!amdimage!amdcad!amd!pesnta!hplabs!sdcrdcf!markb From: sdcrdcf!markb (Mark Biggar) Subject: Re: Abort to Orbit Date: 2 Aug 85 16:36:37 GMT Reply-To: markb@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Mark Biggar) Organization: System Development Corp. R+D, Santa Monica In article <2243@amdcad.UUCP> mike@amdcad.UUCP (Mike Parker) writes: >I seem to remember that the range of the 747-shuttle piggyback >combination is only about 1000 miles. If they ever do abort to >Rota, Spain how do they get the damned thing back to the USA How about: Spain -> England -> Norway -> Reykjavik, Iceland -> Labrador -> Home free Any place you can land and take-off a C5 Galaxy military transport can handle NASA 909 with shuttle. or Drag it to dock, use cargo hoists to put it on air-craft carrier, sail home. or Read "Shuttle Down" by Corry, where they have to get a shuttle back from Easter Island. Which they now have to plan for, as they have just signed a treaty with Chile allowing the use of Easter Island as an emergency landing sight for Vandenburd polar shuttle launches. Boeing appearently has plans for mid-air fueling equiptment for 747s. Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 5 Aug 85 22:45:23 PDT To: crash!noscvax!space@mit-mc Subject: Spacelab News Conference Spacelab News Conference 8/5/85Flight Director Al Pennington and Mission Manager RoyLuftkin (sp ?) - Another good day for the orbitter inspace, systems continue to perform flawlessly. We'resitting at about a 174 by 164 orbit and we've accomplishedour last waste dump and coming up on the last water dumpfor the supply later on today. We're headed towards anorbit 126 de-orbit, around 7 days, 21 hr 42 min and 40seconds. We're headed for a landing at Edwards AF Base.Currently targeted for runway 17 with a landi ng at 7 days22 hrs 45 min 24 seconds. The latest weather predictionsfor Edwards AF Basetoday are scattered clouds, very light winds ... allwithing in the limits prescribed on the vehicle and ofcourse we have the option to go in with a lot of runwaysthere at Edwards. All efforts will be made to keep the windon our normal, below the ten mile limit. There are noplanned cross wind EVO's this time.With the rough start we had on Spacelab, we've had somereally great science this time. To give you an idea, wesent some 12000 commands (Spacelab 1 was around 8000), sowe have far exceeded the commanding on Spacelab 1. Some1.25 trillion bits of data has been received, 45 hours ofvideo, 230 miles of tape. Even with the rough start that wehad at the beginning, we got in orbit with significantlyless fuel then we premission had planned to use for thepayload. We certainly met all the objectives of the PDP. Wegot at least half of the burns through dedicated effort ofthe of the ... people. We did get half of the burns for thep lasma depletion experiment, and with all the effort backat HOOC especially the IPS people ... especially the dataon the optical sensor package with all its difficulties. Wereally had two objectives on Spacelab 2, the first was theverification part of the flight, which was met 100%. Andthe Spacelab systems have performed flawlessly. We were abit concerned, lifting off without the redundant computer.Fortunately, there was not a single glitch. ... to me whatscience is all about is the kind of recovery that to okplace on this mission. Going over the individualexperiments, plasma hole burns got some excellent data; thecosmic ray experiment is still running and will until powerdown; there were some 10 to 12 drop outs of the PDP but hequickly developed a procedure to recover in around 5 min.We'll work on the cause of the drop outs post mission. TheHRT since yesterday has been mainly monitoring theproduction of super fluid helium on orbit; the infa redtelescope i s still operating and will for the remainder ofthe mission, we hoped to get 25 hrs on that experiment andwe've at least doubled that. The super fluid heliumexperiment ran out of helium last night as was expected. Wehave one more blood draw for exp 1. Plant growth wasobviously thrilled by the extra day. SOUP is getting reallyoutstanding data. That particular instrument has imagemotion compensation, he can compensate for disturbances onthe IPS. He's getting indications that he's stable within1/10 th of an ar c sec., 300 KM on the surface of the sun.He had to do a lot of calibrationsquickly to get to the point that he is now, takingscientific data. CHASE is still up and operating onoccassion still using their sun sensors. HRTS is down. Theyused all the film they had on board. PDP got well over 100%of expected data. The HRTS film is extremely sensitive totime and temperature, platforms will be built to remove thefilm and put them in the refrigerator. That should takeplace 24 to 48 hrs after landing. The major ch ange is goingin and getting the film out. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!fluke!ssc-vax!eder From: ssc-vax!eder (Dani Eder) Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 2 Aug 85 19:25:10 GMT Organization: Boeing Aerospace Co., Seattle, WA > > > There has been at least one helicopter with two primary rotors and no > tail rotor. Whether the two primaries (one fore, one aft) were counter- > rotating or not, I don't know. I also don't know its official designa- > tion, but it looked like a flying banana with a rotor at each end, and > no tail rotor. It was in service in 1958, and quite possibly much > earlier. The XHRP-1 'Flying Banana' first flew in 1947, and led off a whole series of counter-rotating propeller helicopters built by the Boeing Company. Currently we produce the CH-47D 'Chinook' helicopter, used by the US Army, and a commercial version called the 234. The model 234 does things like fly people to offshore oil rigs. Our helicopters are made in Philadelphia, PA by the Boeing Vertol Company, which employs about 5000 people. Dani Eder/Boeing Aerospace Company/ Advanced Space Transportation - ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-scotty!fisher From: fisher@scotty.DEC (Burns Fisher, MRO3-1/E13, DTN 231-4108.) Subject: Difference between 0g and immersion Date: 5 Aug 85 13:49:36 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation <...> I should think that the main difference (besides the density of water or amneotic fluid) would be that the INSIDE of the body would feel no difference between a 1g and a floating environment. In other words, the body's relationship to the outside world is more like 0g, but stuff inside is still hanging from its connection point at 1g. Burns UUCP: ... {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dvinci!fisher ARPA: fisher%dvinci.dec@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!petsd!peora!jer From: peora!jer (J. Eric Roskos) Subject: Re: Answer to: What do you call the "blockhouse" now? Date: 4 Aug 85 03:24:05 GMT Organization: Perkin-Elmer SDC, Orlando, Fl. > It mentions the use of magnetic tape drives at a time when > everybody else is using disk drives. I saw a cost analysis on this awhile back. Its conclusion was that for most of NASA's computers-in-space functions, the magnetic media only have to be sequential-access devices; and that the cost-per-bit of magnetic tape is enormously smaller than for disk. Thus, the use of the magnetic tapes. -- Shyy-Anzr: J. Eric Roskos UUCP: ..!{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!vax135!petsd!peora!jer US Mail: MS 795; Perkin-Elmer SDC; 2486 Sand Lake Road, Orlando, FL 32809-7642 "Vg frrzf yvxr hc gb zr." ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #231 ******************* 07-Aug-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #232 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 232 Today's Topics: Mission Extended One Day Re: Shuttle News Conference Re: Columbia's Tiled Damaged by Rain Telescope Comes to Life ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Mission Extended One Day Date: 4 Aug 85 16:21:01 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill Saying that the astronauts have conserved enough fuel to maintian a two-day contingency supply required by mission rules, NASA yesterday extended the flight of the Challenger by one day to give the crwe more time to gather data. The new landing time is a little after noon on Tuesday. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!teddy!rdp From: teddy!rdp Subject: Re: Shuttle News Conference Date: 6 Aug 85 14:59:22 GMT Reply-To: rdp@teddy.UUCP (Richard D. Pierce) Organization: GenRad, Inc., Concord, Mass. In article <2968@mordor.UUCP> markf%Nosc@usiiden.ARPA writes: >From: > Whoever is submitting these articles in this form: > >Shuttle Spacelab Orbit News Conference 8/1During the last shift, we were wrapping up, what we callPDP POCCs operation, where we go out and actually flyaround the PDP. We flew around it twice, we got a lot ofscience data that we'll talk to you abou ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!ittatc!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcc3!sdcc6!calmasd!rfc From: calmasd!rfc (Robert Clayton) Subject: Re: Columbia's Tiled Damaged by Rain Date: 5 Aug 85 20:57:34 GMT Organization: Calma Company, San Diego, CA > how interesting! Columbia's tiles survive atmosphere re-entry only to get > beat up by a rainstorm (which you'd think would be gentle) coming at it at > a couple hundred mph. > -- > << Generic disclaimer >> > Fred Christiansen ("Canajun, eh?") @ Motorola Microsystems, Tempe, AZ > UUCP: ihnp4!{attunix, btlunix, drivax, sftig, ut-sally!oakhill}!mot!fred > ARPA: oakhill!mot!fred@ut-sally.ARPA AT&T: 602-438-3472 Do not underestimate the power of any massive particles in a high velocity fluid stream. Commercial sand blasters operate at 60 mph and are used to remove heavy corrosion from steel and to erode stone surfaces in buildings. Shotblasters operate at 100 mph and are used for shotpeening metal parts - a work hardening process used to strengthen steel castings and forgings. In the last century, hydraulic mining was used to wash away mountain slopes to expose pay dirt in California's gold country. These hydraulic cannons can be seen today along the roadside set up as historical monuments. They are the size of field artillery pieces. From the look of them, it is unlikely they would have operated above 50 mph. Extensive flumes and aquaducts were built to channel the water to them. Hydraulic mining is used today to mine iron ores. A several hundred mph blast of water is extremely destructive. Fortunately in a storm the water is dispersed, but I suspect it compares to a sand blaster in terms of destructive potential. Today, commercially available cutting tools use high pressure water jets to cut steel plates 6 inches thick. Water is not harmless. Bob Clayton GE Calma, San Diego R&D (619) 458-3400 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Telescope Comes to Life Date: 5 Aug 85 02:57:30 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill One of four telescopes on the Instrument Pointing System, which had not been working all throughout the Challenger mission, came to life suddenly today, and ground controllers say they don't know why. However, the telescope, designed to measure the suns magnetic field and the only experiment of the 13 aboard that didn't function, is working perfectly now. Meanwhile, Challenger's crew fired the OMS engines today while ground- based observers studied the exhaust's effect on the ionosphere. Landing is now set for 1547 EDT, Tuesday. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #232 ******************* 11-Aug-85 0357 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #233 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 233 Today's Topics: Latest Keplerian Elements for STS-51F Re: Re: Would a candle burn ... Re: space delivery Abort to Orbit Re: calendar Re: Nuclear Rockets Re: Space delivery Re: Chile Agrees to Provide Easter Island for Emergency Landings Re: Chile Agrees to Provide Easter Island for Emergency Landings Two craft up at once Re: Would a candle burn ... Gestation (or incubation) in space: Sooner than you think! Re: Precession of the equinoxes Re: Re: Would a candle burn ... Re: Leap seconds question on shuttle abort Colas Re: Old fashion computing practices @ NASA Old fashion computing practices @ NASA Re: Voyager on to Uranus. Landing and Rollout Shuttle Observed on 8/2/85 in Chicago Re: Voyager on to Uranus. Re: precession of the equinoxes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!dual!qantel!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!gamma!epsilon!zeta!sabre!bellcore!petrus!karn From: petrus!karn (karn) Subject: Latest Keplerian Elements for STS-51F Date: 5 Aug 85 16:23:27 GMT Organization: At&t Bell Labs, Murray Hill, NJ Satellite: sts-51f Catalog number: 0 Epoch time: 85216.77292824 Sun Aug 4 18:33:00.999 1985 UTC Element set: 9 Inclination: 49.6108 deg RA of node: 123.2213 deg Eccentricity: 0.0012137 Arg of perigee: 335.8996 deg Mean anomaly: 277.8031 deg Mean motion: 15.85795180 rev/day Decay rate: 0.00025 rev/day^2 Epoch rev: 94 Semi major axis: 6693.082 km Anom period: 90.806178 min Apogee: 325.129 km Perigee: 308.882 km Ref perigee: 2772.78732636 Sun Aug 4 18:53:44.997 1985 UTC ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!dual!ames!moose From: ames!moose (Mary Kaiser) Subject: Re: Re: Would a candle burn ... Date: 6 Aug 85 21:20:29 GMT Organization: NASA-Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA > > > ... in space? > > You'd have to ask the Russians. As long as the Americans use a pure > Oxygen atmosphere (they did thru Skylab, and I believe they still do), this > is one experiment that is not going to be done on the shuttle. > > -- > Craig Werner > !philabs!aecom!werner > "The world is just a straight man for you sometimes" *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR TWO CENTS WORTH *** Actually, the astronauts on Skylab attempted to use some conventional (i.e. no forced-air) gas burners to perform some mineral studies. The burners apparently kept going out. I don't know about the wax melting stuff...too low tech for NASA's taste I guess. Now water bubbles.... ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!dual!ames!moose From: ames!moose (Mary Kaiser) Subject: Re: space delivery Date: 6 Aug 85 21:28:35 GMT Organization: NASA-Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA > In article <319@baylor.UUCP> peter@baylor.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: > >Wouldn't the calcium deficiency noted in free fall SERIOUSLY harm the fetus (who > >can't use a treadmill, or would the mother's exercising serve?)? > > Since the fetus is floating anyway, prior to birth, there would > not likely be any effect to being additionally weightless. > > Cheers, Fred Williams *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR BEST GUESS *** Sorry folks, but neutral buoyancy *ain't* the same as 0-G, especially as far as your internal organs are concerned (see "The Forever Wars"). Personally, I think this little bambino is going to have a lot of trouble in terms of proper fetal develop, since much of bone growth (i.e. calcium layering) is gravity dependent. Ditto for other developmental processes. On earth, a fetus/embryo may be floating, but gravity is still playing an important role in physiological development. COMING SOON......"SPACE MUTANTS!" ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!hao!noao!amd!tc From: amd!tc (Tom Crawford) Subject: Abort to Orbit Date: 6 Aug 85 13:46:48 GMT Organization: AMD Applications, Santa Clara, CA Here are paragraphs from an article in Aug 5 Aviation Week. These are reproduced without permission. Abort-to-Orbit Incident Will Intensify Shuttle Engine Procedure Reviews Johnson Space Center- The premature shutdown of one of the shuttle orbiter Challenger's main engines that forced an abort to orbit last week was caused by a temperature sensor failure in the Rocketdyne engine rather that an actual problem with the propulsion system, shuttle managers believe. ... Lead ascent flight director Cleon Lacefield said a reexamination of data indicates that, had the second engine failed at a time when abnormal sensor readings were occurring in it, Challenger could still have achieved a safe but tenuous orbit. A second engine failure, however, would have caused the shuttle's 39-ton Martin Marietta external tank to fall on populated areas of Europe somewhere along a line stretching across central France, Switzerland, south of Milan or near Athens. ... 5 min. 55 sec. Fullerton, piloting Challenger, rotated a switch on the instrument panel to the abort ATO position, then pushed an ajoining abort command button. This told the orbiter's computers that ATO procedures were now required. It immediately ignited Challenger's two Aerojet orbital maneuvering engines to dump 4,400 lbs. of OMS propellant so the remaining main engine thrust could be used more efficiently. 6 min - For 106 sec. Challenger's two OMS engines fired along with the two remaining main engines. The OMS engines provided an additional 12,000 lb. of thrust, but this was incidental to the abort situation. The requirement was to dump OMS propellant to lighten the load. ...... 8 min. 12 sec. Howard at the booster console saw sensors on the right main engine, one of two still firing, start to act improperly. She first saw the B-side fuel pump temperature sensor fail on the right engine, the same failure that started the center engine's problems.... 8 min 45 sec Lacefield had Richards radio Challenger, "Main engine limits to inhibit," an emergency call to prevent the second engine from failing if the temperature sensor data climbed higher. Fullerton immediately flipped a switch on the console, canceling out the protective circuitry in the engines that could have shut down the engines. Tom Crawford ...amd!tc ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!cybvax0!frog!john From: frog!john (John Woods) Subject: Re: calendar Date: 6 Aug 85 15:44:52 GMT Organization: Charles River Data Systems, Framingham MA > From: mcgeer%ucbkim@Berkeley (Rick McGeer) > > Yea. We have a leap second periodically to even out the flaws in > the Gregorian calendar. Just had one this year, in fact. > > Rick. If I understand correctly, the leap seconds are not to correct the calendar, but are to correct for the slowing of the earth with respect to the atomic clocks. Leap seconds are added whenever the mood strikes the people who wind the atoms :-), not according to a fixed plan. -- John Woods, Charles River Data Systems, Framingham MA, (617) 626-1101 ...!decvax!frog!john, ...!mit-eddie!jfw, jfw%mit-ccc@MIT-XX.ARPA ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!dual!ptsfa!well!micropro!kepler!mojo From: kepler!mojo (Morris Jones) Subject: Re: Nuclear Rockets Date: 5 Aug 85 06:26:55 GMT Reply-To: mojo@kepler.UUCP (mojo) Organization: MicroPro Int'l Corp., San Rafael, CA Does anyone have a vague idea of what kind of G forces the crew of a nuclear rocket a la Footfall would be subjected to? Missing data from the book includes the mass (inertia) of the Archangel, and the size of the bombs used to propel it. I kept thinking during the book that we were talking bone-crushing acceleration here -- especially from a ground launch. -- Mojo ... Morris Jones, MicroPro Product Development {dual,ptsfa,hplabs}!well!micropro!kepler!mojo ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!dual!qantel!ihnp4!drutx!slb From: drutx!slb (Sue Brezden) Subject: Re: Space delivery Date: 5 Aug 85 15:58:17 GMT Organization: AT&T Information Systems Laboratories, Denver > Wouldn't the calcium deficiency noted in free fall SERIOUSLY harm the > fetus (who can't use a treadmill, or would the mother's exercising serve?)? > I would be more inclined to worry about the mother. It is hard enough to keep a calcium balance during pregnancy on earth. In space you have two things robbing your calcium: the baby and the lack of gravity. -- Sue Brezden Real World: Room 1B17 Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb AT&T Information Systems 11900 North Pecos Westminster, Co. 80234 (303)538-3829 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Your god may be dead, but mine aren't. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!sesame!slerner From: sesame!slerner (Simcha-Yitzchak Lerner) Subject: Re: Chile Agrees to Provide Easter Island for Emergency Landings Date: 5 Aug 85 13:44:38 GMT Organization: Lotus Development Corp > In article <4102@alice.UUCP> alb@alice.UUCP (Adam L. Buchsbaum) writes: > >The U.S. and Chile today signed an eight year pact under which > >Chile will allow NASA to modify the runway on Easter Island for > >use in case of an emergency shuttle landing there. > > A while back someone posted an article stating that the giant heads on Easter > Island would be in danger if the runway on the island was extended. Does > anybody know if this is still true? > > -- > David K. Bradley > Maybe they'll strain their necks watching all the traffic come and go... -- Opinions expressed are public domain, and do not belong to Lotus Development Corp. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Simcha-Yitzchak Lerner {genrad|ihnp4|ima}!wjh12!talcott!sesame!slerner {cbosgd|harvard}!talcott!sesame!slerner slerner%sesame@harvard.ARPA ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!sesame!slerner From: sesame!slerner (Simcha-Yitzchak Lerner) Subject: Re: Chile Agrees to Provide Easter Island for Emergency Landings Date: 5 Aug 85 14:59:57 GMT Organization: Lotus Development Corp [] [If this is a duplicate, sorry...postnews took a hit 1st time around.] > In article <4102@alice.UUCP> alb@alice.UUCP (Adam L. Buchsbaum) writes: > >The U.S. and Chile today signed an eight year pact under which > >Chile will allow NASA to modify the runway on Easter Island for > >use in case of an emergency shuttle landing there. > > A while back someone posted an article stating that the giant heads on Easter > Island would be in danger if the runway on the island was extended. Does > anybody know if this is still true? > > -- > David K. Bradley > Maybe they are afraid the heads will get stiff necks watching all the traffic come and go... -- Opinions expressed are public domain, and do not belong to Lotus Development Corp. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Simcha-Yitzchak Lerner {genrad|ihnp4|ima}!wjh12!talcott!sesame!slerner {cbosgd|harvard}!talcott!sesame!slerner slerner%sesame@harvard.ARPA ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!ucbvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-scotty!fisher From: fisher@scotty.DEC (Burns Fisher, MRO3-1/E13, DTN 231-4108.) Subject: Two craft up at once Date: 6 Aug 85 13:38:30 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation <> re Gemini 6 and Gemini 7: Gemini 6 was originally planned to do the first (I think) rendezvous and docking in the US space program. The target was to be an Agena vehicle which was to be launched atop an Atlas before Gemini was launched. Gemini 7 was planned to be a long duration flight (medical experiments?). The Atlas/Agena never made orbit (don't remember the details of why). In any case, what they did was to launch Gemini 7 first. Then they scurried around like hell to get the pad cleaned up and G6 re-erected. The countdown reached 0 (or wherever the engines fire on a Titan), the engines burped, and then shutdown (deja vu?). Turns out someone had forgotten to remove some of those red plastic caps that say "Not flight hardware--Remove before flight" from someplace on the engines. In addition, the vibration caused one of the ground connectors to pull out of the base of the Titan. Thus the crew got the signal that they had lifted off, as well as that the engines had shut down. They came very close to ejecting, but the commander said later that he did not feel acceleration, and therefore they could not have lifted off. Because of that excellent perception, they were able to lift off and successfully rendezvous with Gemini 7 a few days later. The dual flight was called "The Spirit of 76". Burns UUCP: ... {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dvinci!fisher ARPA: fisher%dvinci.dec@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe From: ttidcc!hollombe (The Polymath) Subject: Re: Would a candle burn ... Date: 7 Aug 85 19:13:09 GMT Reply-To: hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (The Polymath) Organization: The Cat Factory In article <1688@mnetor.UUCP> fred@mnetor.UUCP (Fred Williams) writes: >I had been under the impression that afterwards, on launch they >used 80% nitrogen & 20% oxygen. The mixture then reduced to pure >oxygen at much lower pressure during boost phase. In the past few >days there have been several postings declaring an O2-N2 mixture is >standard throughout shuttle flights. This could very well be the case. >I could be out of date. From _The Space Shuttle Operator's Manual_ by K.M. Joels, G.P. Kennedy, and D. Larkin, Ballantine Books, 1982, section 2.2, paragraph 2: "An atmosphere like the earth's is maintained in the crew compartment. Atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi ... the same as standard sea-level conditions. The atmosphere consists of 79% nitorgen and 21% oxygen, again very close to what you left on earth. In an emergency, cabin pressure is reduced to 8.0 psi ..." -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp TTI Common Sense is what tells you that a ten 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. pound weight falls ten times as fast as a Santa Monica, CA 90405 one pound weight. (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-scotty!fisher From: fisher@scotty.DEC (Burns Fisher, MRO3-1/E13, DTN 231-4108.) Subject: Gestation (or incubation) in space: Sooner than you think! Date: 7 Aug 85 14:31:00 GMT Sender: decwrl!daemon Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Sorry, I forgot which newsgroup the space pregnancy discussion was going on in, so I am sending this to both. It is short. From the Boston Globe, August 6: FINGER LICKIN' SPACE. Two dozen chicken eggs will be aboard a NASA space shuttle next year because an intern at Kentucky Fried Chicken headquarters in Louisville wants to find out whether chicken embryos can develop under weightless conditions. In a gutsy move the Colonel would have admired, John Vellinger sold NASA on the scheme, so Uncle Sam will pay the bill. "We hope this will give us data about the feasibility of rasising chickens as a food source in space," says intern John Vellinger, who adds mysteriously "and, longer term, whether humans can reproduce in a weightless environment." Burns UUCP: ... {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dvinci!fisher ARPA: fisher%dvinci.dec@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 85 17:58:12 PDT (Wednesday) From: Lynn.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Precession of the equinoxes To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: Lynn.es@Xerox.ARPA Contrary to previous statements made here, the precession of the equinoxes IS related to the Gregorian Calendar. Without precession, the seasons would reoccur every 365.2564 days (a sidereal year), and thus occasional EXTRA leap years would be needed to cause the average year to be more than 365.25 days. With precession, the seasons reoccur every 365.2422 days, and thus occasional dropped leap years are needed (3 out of every 4 century years are dropped). In other words, the earth reaches the point where its pole points most nearly toward the sun (beginning of summer) slightly earlier due to precession (movement of the direction of that pole). Another way of viewing it is that our seasons cycle 25,799 times while we make 25,800 trips around the sun, the difference of one being that our axis rotated once in that time period due to precession. /Don Lynn ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!ittatc!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcc3!sdcc6!ix241 From: sdcc6!ix241 (ix241) Subject: Re: Re: Would a candle burn ... Date: 6 Aug 85 14:58:29 GMT Organization: U.C. San Diego, Academic Computer Center Summary: .2 atm O2 then; earth normal now During Apollo and earlier missions NASA always used a reduced pressure pure oxygen enviroment on missions. They used full pressure O2 for many ground tests until the disaster of Apollo 1. Currently an Earth normal atmosphere is used in the Shuttle. That is the reason space walkers have to prebreathe. The suits use the 4PSI pure O2 that was used in the older missions. The main reason for the reduced pressure, however is to make the suits easier to operate. Less work against pressure. John Testa UCSD Chemistry sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241 ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!prls!amdimage!amdcad!cae780!ubvax!scott From: ubvax!scott (Scott Scheiman) Subject: Re: Leap seconds Date: 5 Aug 85 20:37:09 GMT Organization: Ungermann-Bass, Inc., Santa Clara, CA In article <2884@mordor.UUCP>, @S1-A.ARPA,@MIT-MC.ARPA:FRIEDRITR%VAXJ.GATNET.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA writes: > From: FRIEDRITR%VAXJ.GATNET.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA > > Leap seconds are not to "even out the flaws in the Gregorian > calendar", especially since we have one only every few years (does anyone > know how often, on the average?). Leap seconds keep our precise 24-hour- > per-day clocks synchronized with the actual rotational period of the Earth, > which exhibits slight variations. > > Terry -- Quite a few years back they came only every few years, at midnight beginning a new year. Then a year came when they added a leap second at both ends of the year. This year we had a leap second added between June and July (I think). I don't know why it was added in the middle of the year this year, but my guess is that we now have to have more than one leap second added per year and adding two on Jan. 1 (Dec. 31?) would be more disruptive than "smoothing" it out by adding them at far ends of the year. -- "Ribbit!" Scott Scheiman (Beam Me Up, Scotty!) Industrial Networking, Inc. \ /\/@\/@\/\ ..decvax!decwrl!sun!megatest!ubvax!scott 3990 Freedom Circle _\ \ - / /_ (408) 496-0969 Santa Clara, CA 95050 ------------------------------ Date: 07 Aug 85 2237 PDT From: Ron Goldman Subject: question on shuttle abort To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA What happened to the shuttle external tank because of the abort to orbit maneuver? Did it re-enter over the Indian Ocean as it normally would or elsewhere? Anyone know? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 85 06:13:30 pdt From: Peter Stokes To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA MMDF-Warning: Parse error in preceding line at CSNET-RELAY.ARPA Subject: Colas Just for the taste of it?? What was the purpose of bringing up Pepsi and Coke on the latest shuttle mission? Were the NASA PR people having fun (and doing their job) or was there some kind of test/experiment in bringing them up? Peter Stokes Canadian Microelectronics Corporation ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!hao!ames!eugene From: ames!eugene (Eugene Miya) Subject: Re: Old fashion computing practices @ NASA Date: 8 Aug 85 09:25:43 GMT Organization: NASA-Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA > A former prof of mine, and good friend, worked for NASA through a > subcontractor > for a period of time after receiving his PhD. He told me that there were > "old" > diehards that still used cards to program when he was there (74-77). > This was > inspite of the fact that modern terminals were available. He also said that > one of the main launch sequencing programs for the shuttle was written > in FORTRAN and it included hundreds of lines of EQU's at the beginning. > > Can anyone confirm or deny this? > > George Erhart Okay. Below my office in a corner is a card punch room. CONFIRMED. P.S. many of the users of cards are visiting scientists (physicists and chemists for example) who brought cards with them for sabbatical. This is 1985. I have worked directly with NASA since 1977. At many NASA sites: modern terminals are not available. There are millions of lines of FORTRAN available from NASA from the public domain thru COSMIC (NASA's software distribution service). NASA's problem stems from the fact that it got into the computer world quite early and it froze it's perspective on computer technology with the IBM 360/FORTRAN world in the 1960s. It felt it had to freeze this perspective for a variety of reasons which I won't cover. In 1978, Carl Sagan, Raj Reddy, Ed Feignenbaum [sorry, I was describing this story at lunch] put together a committee to look at the use of robtics and AI in NASA. This partially stemmed from a problem on the second Viking Lander on Mars which had a bolt stuck in a joint on the arm to dig trenches. A loop wiggled the arm back and forth til the bolt dropped out. This set of commands had to be tested on earth and then sent 7 light- minutes to Mars and then back before this problem was freed. The question: could an AI program have figured this out instead? Early on NASA, like many businesses, looked at AI skeptically and dropped it. It looked at more more than teleoperators. Back to Sagan. They published this report which said that the computing practices of NASA were in some cases 10-15 years behind the rest of the world. There was a fundamental problem in computer science much less AI. The report came out in a plain red cover without a NASA logo [I guard my copy]. Regarding punch cards, in particular, it mentioned that even in the best cases cards were only replaced by card images and submitted by batch. My observations: 1st Unix system in NASA: a bootlegged system [this machine I am posting on] in 1979. No NASA purchased DEC-10s, and very little LISP work. Heavy use of IBM, Univac, and CDC hardware. Dominance of Modcomp computers for "real-time" work [recall Thompson's comments about the popularity of the PDP-11 in the 1974 Unix paper]. I moved from JPL to Ames in 1982. Around 1980. It became clear to NASA HQ that something had to be done about upgrading NASA computing. Software schedules tended to be critical on some space projects, the increible bulk of data from satellite sensors was going unanalyzed, more performance was needed. There was no office of NASA particularly oriented to computing [still to this day]. NASA's purpose was to do space and aeronautics. An effort began to improve this situation. Funding has begun on particular 'mission' areas: realtime systems software engineering, scientific database, and supercomputing, oh, and some AI. A new institute: RIACS the Research Institute for Advanced Computer Science was formed headed by Peter Denning for a couple of these cases. Money was put into doing "real" computer work. The problem comes with some managers trying to tell the difference on research done on computers and research on computers. Change is occurring, but it takes time. Many people are still skeptical of this effort. LANs, for instance, are still quite scarce in NASA, yet we have the Deep Space Net talking to satellites far away. BASIC is stilling being used in many parts of NASA. The IBM-oriented managers (old time FORTRAN people) still have a great deal of power which we did not expect to be a problem, but turf wars are everywhere. Things are changing: more young visiting scientists are coming and just this day, a couple physicists came asking for access to Unix rather than VMS. [Many others like VMS's prompts for Filenames.] This says nothing of the people who still use TSS here. We're catching up. --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,decwrl,allegra}!ames!aurora!eugene emiya@ames-vmsb ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!dual!qantel!ihnp4!cbosgd!cbdkc1!gwe From: cbdkc1!gwe ( George Erhart ) Subject: Old fashion computing practices @ NASA Date: 5 Aug 85 22:35:36 GMT Reply-To: gwe@cbdkc1.UUCP ( George Erhart ) Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus A former prof of mine, and good friend, worked for NASA through a subcontractor for a period of time after receiving his PhD. He told me that there were "old" diehards that still used cards to program when he was there (74-77). This was inspite of the fact that modern terminals were available. He also said that one of the main launch sequencing programs for the shuttle was written in FORTRAN and it included hundreds of lines of EQU's at the beginning. Can anyone confirm or deny this? George Erhart ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!dual!qantel!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!hrpd3!ken From: hrpd3!ken (K.COCHRAN) Subject: Re: Voyager on to Uranus. Date: 6 Aug 85 14:09:49 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Holmdel NJ I have a question ..... If something the size of a voyager, presumably not radiating much radio energy, were to enter our solar system from an alien culture, is the possibility of us detecting it more than miniscule ? I just wonder it would burn up in the sun unnoticed. If this happens, it would make all Carl Sagan's artistic work of a man and a woman rather pointless, and just a waste of NASA's budget. Ken Cochran vax135!hr1ar!ken ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!dual!qantel!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb From: alice!alb (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Landing and Rollout Date: 6 Aug 85 23:40:06 GMT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill The shuttle Challenger made a perfect landing today at EAFB, and technicians hurried to secure it so that they could remove the heat sensors believed to be the cause of last Monday's ATO. Meanwhile, the Discovery was rolled to pad 39A yesterday in preparation for its 24 August launch. The Discovery's engines have new and improved heat sensors. ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!dual!qantel!ihnp4!ihuxl!dcn From: ihuxl!dcn (Dave Newkirk) Subject: Shuttle Observed on 8/2/85 in Chicago Date: 7 Aug 85 14:00:58 GMT Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories At 9:37 pm on August 2, I watched the shuttle pass overhead from my backyard in suburban Warrenville. It appeared in the northwest, moving toward the southeast. When I first saw it, it looked like a comet (!), with a bright head and a faint tail/contrail behind it. As it moved overhead, the tail shortened to a fuzzy area around the shuttle, and then moved ahead of it as it passed the zenith. Then it suddenly faded away, leaving a dim point where the shuttle was. At first I thought it was a trail left in the upper atmosphere, but then when the trail shortened, I changed my theory to a reflection of sunlight off the wings or a byproduct of one of the experiment packages. Since it seems to have faded as it moved in to the Earth's shadow, I concluded that it must have been reflected sunlight. It sure was bright! -- Dave Newkirk, ihnp4!ihuxl!dcn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 85 10:32:39 PDT From: mcgeer%ucbkim@Berkeley (Rick McGeer) To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Re: Voyager on to Uranus. >I have a question ..... > If something the size of a voyager, presumably not radiating >much radio energy, were to enter our solar system from an alien >culture, is the possibility of us detecting it more than miniscule ? > >I just wonder it would burn up in the sun unnoticed. If this happens, >it would make all Carl Sagan's artistic work of a man and a woman >rather pointless, and just a waste of NASA's budget. > > Ken Cochran vax135!hr1ar!ken > > If it burned up in the sun, it would have to be on an awfully screwy orbit. More likely, it would simply pass through the system; if it was in the plane of the ecliptic, it *might* be captured, but that too is very unlikely. So, yes, the artwork was a waste of NASA's budget, at least as far as making contact with aliens goes. Rick ------------------------------ Path: mordor!ut-sally!seismo!lll-crg!dual!qantel!ihnp4!ihuxn!gadfly From: ihuxn!gadfly (Gadfly) Subject: Re: precession of the equinoxes Date: 7 Aug 85 17:40:53 GMT Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories -- > First, to set the record straight, the precession of the equinoxes > was discovered by Hipparkhos in about 150 BC... > > However, what does change is the relative position of sun and stars at any > given season; thus, in Hipparkhos' time the vernal equinox began as the > sun entered the Zodiacal sign of Pisces, whereas 2000 years earlier it > had occurred when the sun entered Aries (and by about 2050 I think the sun > will still be in Aquarius). This of course makes nonsense of traditional > astrology; since no astrologer seems to have looked at the real sky in > several millenia, the dates given in your daily paper for 'Aries' &c are > wildly wrong. Well, just to set the record straight (and *not* to get into any discussion on the worth of astrology), astrologers have long been aware of said precession, and define "Aries" as that slice of the celestial sphere between 0h and 2h RA, "Taurus" between 2h and 4h, etc. The actual stellar background to these slices is considered irrelevant. Galileo was also an astrologer, you know, although apparently not quite as good at it as he was at science. He is supposed to have seen in the stars a long and prosperous life for some duke who employed him. The duke died two weeks later. -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 07 Aug 85 [20 Thermidor An CXCIII] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7753 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!iwsl8!ken *** *** ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #233 ******************* 13-Aug-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #234 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 234 Today's Topics: punchcards Rotation and drift ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Aug 85 18:52:43 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: punchcards To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A I have a couple of old boxes of cards that I've been hauling around for 12 years or so, and decided to see about getting them read in. The CS/Robotics operator said, "I think we got rid of the last one, oh, 5 years ago". I then called the computation center. It took them awhile to check, but they came back and told me that there WAS a reader in the back of the main machine room, and it was still hooked up. Of course, no one seemed to know quite how to use it, but they were quite sure they could figure it out... Maybe I should drop by the nearest NASA center? ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 85 18:04:53 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: Rotation and drift To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A I suspect there is a bit of unpredicatability to it all because the earth is not a simple precessing gyroscope. It is a gyroscope with a buch of lead weigths stuck on it at various odd places. And to make it all the more interesting, they keep moving around, interact with each other, and with the internal heat flux environment of the earth, which in turn affects and is affected by the earth's magnetic field. I you were to write a precise equation, it would HAVE to predict the locations of thermal plumes that cause thinning and thickening of the crust and the consequent effects on continental drift. I suspect this means we can do no better than approximate a calculation by extending current drift rates back for a few 10's of millions of years. But before that our knowledge is probably not sufficient to do more than take a stab at it. True, ROUGH continental sizes and latitudes are guessed at by geomagnetic domain data, but I doubt it is sufficiently accurate to help much. This may even have some effects in shorter periods of time, because over the short history of man, the distance between Europe and America has changed by many miles, and that HAS to have a significant effect on precession. It may even be the cause of the 'unexplained' 4 inch per year pole drift mentioned earlier. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #234 ******************* 14-Aug-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #235 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 235 Today's Topics: Telephone/Mail human networks ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Aug 85 12:29 EDT From: Mills@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Telephone/Mail human networks To: Space@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: Mills@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA A number of the Naturist groups along the east coast have been discussing methods of better coordinating their political activites. A major problem in doing this is effective communication between the different groups. Some people have suggested e-mail as a solution, but given that few if any of the groups have any computer equipment it would seem that the initial outlay for equipment and software would be rather high. I have investigated using utilities like the Source and Compuserve, but once again price becomes a major problem. This led me to think about non-computer networks that utilize telephones and/or U.S. mail. The only such network I have heard of is the "Phone-Tree"? that the L5 society uses. (This is why I am posting this to Space as well as Human-Nets). If anyone has any info on how the L5 net works, if it realy exists, or how any other phone/mail net works I would greatly appreciate it. Any references to books/articles on how to build such a net would also be very interesting. We are talking about approximately 30 groups east of the Mississippi, mostly on the coast, with about 5 people in each group that need to contacted with each "posting". John Mills send replies to Mills at CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #235 ******************* 16-Aug-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #236 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 236 Today's Topics: GASCAN's ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Aug 85 21:41:36 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: GASCAN's To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A Pgh L5 is working with a reprentative of the PA board of education on ideas for using aerospace education to increase student interest in math and science. One idea we are examining is a GASCAN experiment. Although I probably can dig the info out if I really try, would someone save me the time and tell me: 1) What are the current prices on GASCAN's 2) What are the names of the companies that assist putting GASCAN's together 3) What is the current average waiting time to fly a GASCAN, from request to purchase to orbit? 4) Could I have a specific name and phone at NASA to talk the idea over with? 5) What is the GASCAN CBB phone number? Nothing is solidified at this time. We are merely examining possibilities and feeding information to people who will be setting up programs in the PA schools. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #236 ******************* 17-Aug-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #237 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 237 Today's Topics: SPACE Digest V5 #236 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sender: "Bruce Parks:wbst147:Xerox.ns"@Xerox.ARPA Date: 16 Aug 85 05:40:25 PDT (Friday) Subject: SPACE Digest V5 #236 From: OTA@S1-A.Arpa To: SPACE@MIT-MC.Arpa Reply-to: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.Arpa GVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGV From: Ted Anderson Subject: SPACE Digest V5 #236 To: SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Return-Path: Redistributed: XeroxSpace^.x GVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGVGV SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 236 Today's Topics: GASCAN's ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Aug 85 21:41:36 EDT From: Dale.Amon@CMU-RI-FAS Subject: GASCAN's To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A Pgh L5 is working with a reprentative of the PA board of education on ideas for using aerospace education to increase student interest in math and science. One idea we are examining is a GASCAN experiment. Although I probably can dig the info out if I really try, would someone save me the time and tell me: 1) What are the current prices on GASCAN's 2) What are the names of the companies that assist putting GASCAN's together 3) What is the current average waiting time to fly a GASCAN, from request to purchase to orbit? 4) Could I have a specific name and phone at NASA to talk the idea over with? 5) What is the GASCAN CBB phone number? Nothing is solidified at this time. We are merely examining possibilities and feeding information to people who will be setting up programs in the PA schools. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #236 ******************* ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #237 ******************* 18-Aug-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #238 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 238 Today's Topics: GASCANs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat 17 Aug 85 22:07:26-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: GASCANs To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA Please, what is a GASCAN? ------- ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #238 ******************* 19-Aug-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #239 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 239 Today's Topics: SPACE Digest V5 #237 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1985 00:43 EDT From: MINSKY%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA Cc: SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: SPACE Digest V5 #237 That was an irritating message, because it didn't say what a GASCAN is. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #239 ******************* 20-Aug-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #240 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 240 Today's Topics: 6" Reflector Parts Re: SPACE Digest V5 #239 Tropics + Precession + Confusion Re: SPACE Digest V5 #236 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 19 Aug 85 07:45 EDT From: Jim Moore Subject: 6" Reflector Parts Help! I have an Edmund's 6" reflector badly in need of an eyepiece holder. It needs a 1.5" holder with a rack for engaging the focusing knobs. I've tried calling Edmund's, but they apparently deal only in trinkets now. If anyone out there knows where I can buy the holder, and possibly a replacement 6" main mirror, please write me directly (moore@ncsc). Thanks. Jim Moore Naval Coastal Systems Panama City, FL 32407-5000 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 85 12:43 EDT From: kyle.wbst@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #239 To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: kyle.wbst@Xerox.ARPA From: MINSKY%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA... re:That was an irritating message, because it didn't say what a GASCAN is. It sounds to me like some sort of acronym for "Get Away Specials". I can't figure out the last part, tho. Earle. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Aug 1985 at 1602-EDT Subject: Tropics + Precession + Confusion From: jim at TYCHO.ARPA (James B. Houser) To: space at mit-mc Hi Since I started all this let me try to clear up what I was trying to ask. The question was Q. Is there a way to mathematically describe the changes in the tilt of the earth's ecliptic over time. Note that this has no relation to PRECESSION, LEAP SECONDS, RENT RIOTS, or Julius Caesar. It does relate to the movement of the solstice lines or Tropics. One person did submit a formula but it appears to be bogus. >The tilt or obliquity of the ecliptic also changes. This is a >long period change of 41,000 years that takes the tilt from 24.5 >degrees to 22.1 degrees at about .47 seconds per year. This >change of tilt affects solar phenomena like sunrise, sunset, etc. >The formula for the tilt is: > > 23 degrees 26 minutes 21.448 seconds > - 46.8150*T seconds > - .00059*T*T seconds > + .001813*T*T*T seconds > > where T is the number of Julian centuries from 2000 This appears not to be a legitimate equation (my overworked floating point hardware agrees). Sorry if I was unclear in my original submission. Thanks for the attempts at help. jim@tycho ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 85 10:06:10 PDT From: "Niket K. Patwardhan" To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC CC: OTA@S1-A.arpa Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #236 from "Ted Anderson " Can you tell me what a GASCAN is? Im splitting it up GAS_CAN! ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #240 ******************* 21-Aug-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #241 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 241 Today's Topics: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #240 More Telescope parts PM-Space Platform,0147 Book on space SPACE Digest V5 #240 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Aug 85 13:21 EDT From: kyle.wbst@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #240 To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: kyle.wbst@Xerox.ARPA re: Can you tell me what a GASCAN is? Im splitting it up GAS_CAN! Date: Mon, 19 Aug 85 10:06:10 PDT From: "Niket K. Patwardhan" To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC CC: OTA@S1-A.arpa Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #236 from "Ted Anderson " ---------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps it means "Get Away Special CANister". ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 85 10:20:54 PDT From: tencati@JPL-VLSI.ARPA Subject: More Telescope parts To: Space%mit-mc@JPL-VLSI.ARPA I have a Celestron C-11. I ordered a "Dew Zapper II" from Orion last November. They have delayed shipment 3 times and have sent me a letter telling me that they are having trouble getting parts and are discontinuing the product. Does anyone know where I can find a similar product. This little gizmo fits around the circumference of the correcting plate and provides enough warmth to prevent dew from forming on the surface of the plate. There is some sort of wire that plugs into a hand-held rheostat to control the amount of heat being output. I have a dew cap already, and I don't want a heated cap. Thanks for any info. Please reply directly to TENCATI@JPL-VLSI.ARPA. Ron Tencati ------------------------------ Date: 20 Aug 85 1108 PDT From: Rod Brooks Subject: PM-Space Platform,0147 To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA Houston Firm Wins OK for Private Space Platform WASHINGTON (AP) - A Houston-based company received NASA's approval today to construct and operate a habitable platform that will be used by commercial firms to manufacture products in space. The firm, Space Industries Inc., will receive no federal money for the project, which is expected to cost $250 million to $500 million. The platform will operated automatically much of the time, but will be visited periodically by astronauts for servicing. Max Faget, president of Space Industries, Inc., said the platform - 35 feet long and 14.5 feet in diameter - should be ready to be carried into orbit by the shuttle in 1989. He declined to discuss financing for the venture. NASA said it will defer payments for hauling two such platforms into space until the firm begins making money from their operation. AP-NY-08-20-85 1340EDT *************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 85 11:27:25 EDT From: Will Martin To: Space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Book on space Note: The following was posted to USENET's net.space newsgroup; however, since I have noticed that recently it seems that the gateway between the Space Digest and USENET's net.space and net.columbia is broken in one direction (ARPA-originated postings appear on USENET but USENET-originated material does not appear in the Digest), I am sending this copy directly to SPACE. If you see a duplicate because the gateway has gotten fixed in the meantime, my apologies. Short review of ...THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH, A Political History of the Space Age, by Walter A McDougall (1985, Basic Books, Inc., 461 pp plus appendix and notes). (The preceeding "..." is part of the title.) This book is a rather detailed history of the American & Soviet space efforts from WWII to the early 60's, with a brief survey of pre-WWII experiments. I found the sections on the Soviet program to be the most interesting; the parts on the earlier American efforts (just after WWII and under Eisenhower) were also rather intriguing. Unfortunately, the wealth of detail and documents available for the later American portion (under LBJ and Kennedy) leads to such elaborate and in-depth discussion that it became overly concerned with minutiae and rather boring. I realize that such info is necessary for a "definitive" work on a subject, but I was reading this in bed in the evenings over the past days, and found myself consistently falling asleep and eventually just skimmed the later part. Nonetheless, I do recommend the first portion and having worthwhile information and interesting discussion. Regards, Will Martin UUCP/USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin or ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 85 21:39:46 EDT From: Keith F. Lynch Subject: SPACE Digest V5 #240 To: Jim@TYCHO.ARPA cc: SPACE-ENTHUSIASTS@MIT-MC.ARPA I think that that formula for axial tilt as a function of time is an approximation only valid for a certain period, since it is a cubic equation and the way the tilt really varies is more like a sine wave. No finite polynomial can approximate a sine wave over an arbitrarily large interval (I thought you No-Such-Agency folks knew all about non-polynomial functions, etc). Note that what is being measured is the tilt between the plane of the ecliptic and the plane of the Earth's equator. It is not the ecliptic that is moving, but the equator, or rather the projection into space of the equator (the equator stays at about the same place on the ground). Where does one find equations like that? I have been looking for such things... ...Keith ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #241 ******************* 22-Aug-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #242 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 242 Today's Topics: earths tilt EDMUND'S ADDRESS Where does one find those astronomical equations? NASA GAS NET ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Aug 85 7:38:38 EDT From: Dick Koolish Subject: earths tilt To: space@mit-mc.arpa One finds out about obliquity of the ecliptic from the Explanatory Supplement to the American Ephemeris published by the Naval Observatory. Last time I called them, they were preparing a new edition of the book with all the latest numbers. I don't know if it has been published yet, although the previous editions are around. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Aug 85 09:12 EDT From: Jim Moore Subject: EDMUND'S ADDRESS To: morgan@uci-icsa cc: space@mit-mc Tim: My latest address for Edmund's is: 101 E. Gloucester Pike Barrington, NJ (sorry, no zip) (609) 547-3488 Hope it'll help. Jim Moore NCSC ------------------------------ Date: 21 Aug 1985 20:35:52-EDT (Wednesday) From: Josh Knight To: space@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Where does one find those astronomical equations? > Where does one find equations like that? I have been looking for > such things... > ...Keith "The American Ephemeris and Nautical Almanac" from the U.S. Naval Observatory and it's associated explanatory supplement. I've forgotten exactly what the explanatory supplement is called but any issue of the Almanac references it. The AENA is published yearly. I've been thinking of suscribing, but it's not cheap. Check the library of the nearest University with an Astronomy or Aeronautics department or the nearest Planetarium. Josh Knight IBM T.J. Watson Research Center josh@yktvmh.BITNET, josh.yktvmh.ibm-sj@csnet-relay.ARPA ------------------------------ From: crash!bryan@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Wed, 21 Aug 85 13:47:22 PDT To: space@mit-mc Subject: NASA GAS NET Cc: dale.amone@cmv-ri-fas NASA is (or at least was) running a b-board (300 baud) concerning the GAS projects. The number is: 301-344-9156 I've called it once or twice. Nothing to write home about. Bryan R. Walker crash!bryan@ucsd {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax}!crash!bryan ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #242 ******************* 13-Sep-85 0912 WARD@USC-ISIB.ARPA SPACE Digest V5 #243 Received: from USC-ISIB.ARPA by S1-A.ARPA with TCP; 13 Sep 85 09:12:29 PDT Return-Path: Date: 23 Aug 85 0348 PDT From: Ted Anderson Subject: SPACE Digest V5 #243 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC ReSent-To: OTA@S1-A.ARPA ReSent-From: WARD at USC-ISIB.ARPA (connected to COMP:) ReSent-Date: 13 Sep 1985 SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 243 Today's Topics: Halley's comet info request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To: space-enthusiasts@mit-mc.arpa Subject: Halley's comet info request Date: 22 Aug 85 12:22:34 EST (Thu) From: Andrew V Royappa Hi .. I would like some info about Halley's comet, specifically about how to get to the southern hemisphere to watch it. I'm interested in: 1. the best locations to watch from 2. how to get there and back as cheaply as possible (tours etc.). Thank you, Andrew Royappa avr@purdue.arpa {ihnp4, ucbvax, decvax, pur-ee}!purdue!avr ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #243 ******************* 13-Sep-85 0912 WARD@USC-ISIB.ARPA SPACE Digest V5 #244 Received: from USC-ISIB.ARPA by S1-A.ARPA with TCP; 13 Sep 85 09:12:44 PDT Return-Path: Date: 24 Aug 85 0347 PDT From: Ted Anderson Subject: SPACE Digest V5 #244 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC ReSent-To: OTA@S1-A.ARPA ReSent-From: WARD at USC-ISIB.ARPA (connected to COMP:) ReSent-Date: 13 Sep 1985 SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 244 Today's Topics: comets ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 23 Aug 85 7:19:20 EDT From: Dick Koolish Subject: comets To: space@mit-mc.arpa, list/astro:@bbncd2.arpa P/Halley 0h UT RA (2000) DEC MAG ----- --------- --- --- Sept 1 6h 11.52m +19d 20.4m 12.7 Sept 6 6 13.30 +19 25.1 12.5 Sept 11 6 14.71 +19 30.1 12.1 Sept 16 6 15.64 +19 35.9 12.0 Sept 21 6 16.00 +19 42.5 11.7 Sept 26 6 15.65 +19 50.4 11.4 Oct 1 6 14.44 +19 59.7 11.1 P/Giacobini-Zinner 0h UT RA (2000) DEC MAG ----- --------- --- --- Sept 1 5h 10.6m +37d 45m 8.0 Sept 6 5 34.4 +30 56 8.1 Sept 11 5 54.8 +23 52 8.2 Sept 16 6 12.2 +16 53 8.2 Sept 21 6 27.2 +10 11 8.4 Sept 26 6 40.1 + 3 56 8.5 Oct 1 6 51.3 - 1 49 8.7 At Stellafane last weekend, Halley was seen by a number of observers using 24 inch telescopes. On September 14th, Halley and Giacobini-Zinner will pass within 2 degrees of each other. Closest approach is at 18:00 UT. On the morning of the 14th, they will be 2.1 degrees apart and 2.3 degrees on the morning of the 15th. At 07:35 UT (3:35 AM EST) on September 4th, Giacobini-Zinner will occult the 6th magnitude star SAO 58030 in Auriga. Complete details in September Sky & Telescope, page 223. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #244 ******************* 05-Sep-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #245 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 245 Today's Topics: Soviet Space Program Space Politics Satellite on a String Shuttle launch Sched. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: crash!bryan@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Mon, 2 Sep 85 10:20:32 PDT To: space@mit-mc Subject: Soviet Space Program #: 54883 S2/Non-NASA Programs 28-Aug-85 00:35:37 Sb: #54874-Soviet Space Program Fm: David Anderman 74216,705 To: Scott Jann 74256,1123 There are 3 reputed Soviet Space Shuttles. One is a scale model, launched on a "C" class vehicle, about a ton or two in weight. This vehicle compares with our Asset program of the middle 1960's, and is intended to study high velocity flight in the upper atmosphere. The second (whose existence is postulated by the DoD) is a Dynasoar class vehicle, as you suggest, able to carry 2 - 4 cosmonauts and consumables to Salyut. However, the Soyuz booster can only carry 14,000 lbs to earth orbit, and this vehicle will be much heavier than that. (The Dynasoar was originally to be launched by the Titan II, but due to the realities of its final intended weight the Titan IIIC was developed to carry it, and in the final stages of the Dynasoar program, the Saturn IB was being considered as a launch vehicle). In fact, the DoD, and other authorities see the mini-shuttle being launched by the Proton -or similar sized- rocket. Finally, the heavy shuttle will be launched by the a version of their super booster, and as you suggest, will have no main engines on board. Unfortunately for the Dod, and others who postulate the existence of spectacular developments from the Soviets in the near term, none of these shuttles will be in actual use (as can be presently determined) in this century, due to the lack of the (in the case of the Proton - launched shuttle) a reason for existence, and (in the case of the heavy shuttle) a liquid hydrogen booster to enable it to carry payloads to orbit. So that's the story on the present Soviet efforts on their shuttles. If you've heard anything more, I'd be glad to hear about it. ------------------------------ From: crash!bryan@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Mon, 2 Sep 85 10:16:51 PDT To: space@mit-mc Subject: Space Politics #: 54857 S4/Space Politics 27-Aug-85 10:28:32 Sb: NASA's SDI Sats Fm: Tom Neff 75176,3532 AP 08/26 22:00 EDT a0736 SPACE CENTER, Houston (AP) -- NASA has proposed building and launching two target satellite systems to help the Defense Department develop its "Star Wars" defense program, according to a published report. The National Aeronautics and Space Administration proposal calls for development of a satellite called Chemsat and a group of satellites called Multiprobe, Aviation Week & Space Technology reported. Chemsat would deploy gas clouds that could be used as test targets for the laser weapons being developed by the Strategic Defense Initiative Organization. The Strategic Defense Initiative is sometimes called the "Star Wars" defense. The Multiprobe satellites would be grouped around the Chemsat gas clouds to measure the performance of the laser weapons. Under the NASA proposal, SDI would pay for the satellites, but they would be built by NASA and launched by the space shuttle. The satellite systems also would gather basic scientific information about the ionosphere. This information would not be classified and thus shared with the science community. SDI also is seeking to receive data from space studies conducted by other NASA projects, including foreign satellites that are being flown in cooperation with NASA, the magazine said. ------------------------------ From: crash!bryan@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Mon, 2 Sep 85 10:18:49 PDT To: space@mit-mc Subject: Satellite on a String #: 54855 S1/NASA Space Programs 27-Aug-85 10:27:32 Sb: Satellite on a String Fm: Tom Neff 75176,3532 AP 08/27 10:38 EDT a0570 STANFORD, Calif. (AP) -- A 1988 space shuttle experiment in which a satellite will be dropped into the upper atmosphere at the end of a 12-milelong cable will allow study of a state of matter rarely found on Earth, say the scientists designing it. The National Aeronautics and Space Administration and the National Space Plan Office of the Italian National Reseach Council last week selected Stanford University's proposal for the experiment to be carried on three missions. The shuttle, cable and satellite together will form "the largest object ever flown anywhere, anytime. It will be more than 100 times larger than anything that has ever flown," Stanford Professor Roger Williamson said Monday. NASA selected Stanford's Shuttle Electrodynamic Tether System (SETS) from more than 75 proposals submitted by scientist worldwide for the study of ionized gases and their properties in the upper ionosphere. Using the tether, which will be barely a half-inch wide, will put the satellite into a little-known region of the ionosphere that is dense enough to slow a free satellite and make it fall. At the same time, the shuttle will be high enough that atmospheric drag can be ignored. The tether also allows scientists to examine two regions simultaneously, said Williams, a member of a team of Stanford electrical engineers led by Professor Peter Banks. The region to be studied by the satellite is made up of ionized, charged particles or plasma, a state of matter rare on Earth outside of lightning and other high-temperature or electrical reactions but believed to be the most abundant type of matter in the universe. An international team of scientists, including the half-dozen Stanord scientists, also will study how a large structure such as the shuttle and the satellite it will tow like a fish lure disturbs these excited particles, he said. "We hope to learn a lot about large structures in space like solar sails and solar power stations, especially since we've never had anything nearly this large in space," Williamson said. "In the next 10 years, NASA has planned 200 trips of the shuttles and a space station of unprecedented size. It is incumbent on us to understand that atmosphere." If the flight is successful, a second shuttle will tow a satellite at the end of a tether 62 miles long, he said. ------------------------------ From: crash!bryan@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Mon, 2 Sep 85 10:21:46 PDT To: space@mit-mc Subject: Shuttle launch Sched. The first digit identifies the fiscal year (Oct 1 thru Sept 30) (4=1984, 5=1985 and so on), the second digit indicates the launch site (1=KSC, 2=Vandenburg), and the letter indicates the launch sequence within the fiscal year (A=1, B=2, and so on). 1986 (16 launches) DATE MISSION PAYLOAD ------ ------------- --------------------------------- DEC 23 61-C (STS-32) G-STAR-C, SATCOM KU-2, WESTAR 7, SSIP JAN 22 61-D (STS-33) SPACELAB 4, SPARTAN H FEB 6 61-E (STS-34) ASTRO-1, DBS-B MAR 15 61-F (STS-35) ISPM (CENTAUR) MAR 21 61-G (STS-36) GALILEO (CENTAUR) JUN 27 62-H (STS-37) EOS-2, INSAT 1-C, SKYNET-4B, STC DBS-A JUL 16 61-I (STS-38) INTELSAT VI-2, MSL-4, SUNLAB-1 AUG 13 61-J (STS-39) SPACE TELESCOPE AUG 21 61-K (STS-40) DOD SEP 12 61-L (STS-41) NOT YET MANIFESTED SEP 29 62-B (STS-V2) DOD OCT 1 71-A (STS-42) MSL-5, ASC-2, STC DBS-B, DOD PAM OCT 23 71-B (STS-43) SATCOM KU-3, CRRES, NOV 6 71-C (STS-44) DOD NOV 26 71-D (STS-45) ASTRO-2, DOD PAM-2, USAT-1 DEC 17 71-E (STS-46) EOM-2, DOD PAM-3, GALAXY KU-2 1987 (24 launches) JAN 2 72-A (STS-4V) LANDSAT REPAIR JAN 14 71-F (STS-47) OAST-2, MSL-6, INTELSAT VI-3 JAN 28 71-C (STA-48) NOT YET MANIFESTED FEB ?? 71-H (STS-49) STC DBS-C, PLUS ?? MAR ?? 71-I (STS-50) MSL-7, USAT-2, DOD PAM-4, ORION-A MAR ?? 71-J (STS-51) C2-SPACELINES APR ?? 71-K (STS-52) DOD PAM-5, SATCOM KU-4, UNISAT-1 APR ?? 72-B (STS-V4) OSTA-5, PLUS ?? MAY ?? 71-L (STS-53) SPARTAN-3, SATCOM I, STC DBS-D, MAY ?? 71-M (STS-54) IML-1 PLUS SPACELAB 8 JUN ?? 71-N (STS-55) MSL-8, CFMF, INTELSAT VI-4 JUL ?? 71-O (STS-56) UNISAT-2, SBS-6, DOD PAM-6, SPACENET-C JUL ?? 71-P (STS-57) DOD JUL ?? 71-Q (STS-58) ASTRO-3, ORION-B, DOD PAM-7 AUG ?? 71-R (STS-59) OAST-3, LDEF-2 AUG ?? 71-S (STS-60) SUNLAB-2, MSL-9, ROSAT SEP ?? 71-T (STS-61) DOD OCT ?? 8W-A (STS-5V) DOD OCT ?? 81-A (STS-62) EURECA, STC DBS-E, DOD PAM-8, RCA, DBS-4 OCT ?? 81-B (STS-63) MSL-10, Intelsat VI-5, EUVE NOV ?? 81-C (STS-64) EOM-2, ASC-3, DOD PAM-9, SPACENET-D NOV ?? 81-D (STS-65) DOD DEC ?? 82-B (STS-6V) COBE, OSTA-7 DEC ?? 81-E (STS-66) TSS-1, LACEOS-2, DOD PAM-12, UNISAT-3 1988 (23 launches) JAN ?? 81-F (STS-67) DBS LUX-A, CFMF-2, FORDSAT-11, DOD, PAM-13 JAN ?? 81-G (STS-68) Spacelab J FEB ?? 81-H (STS-69) MSL-11, WESTAR-8, DOD PAM-12, FORDSAT-2 MAR ?? 81-I (STS-70) SHEAL-1, ORION-C, USAT-3, WESTAR-A MAR ?? 81-J (STS-71) DOD APR ?? 81-K (STS-72) VRM (CENTAUR) MAY ?? 81-L (STS-73) CRD, EURECA RETRIEVAL, RCA DBS-5 MAY ?? 81-M (STS-74) CFMF-3, ORION-D, TELESAT-K, DOD, PAM-13 JUN ?? 81-N (STS-75) DOD JUN ?? 82-C (STS-V7) SP PLASMA-1, PLUS ?? JUN ?? 81-D (STS-76) LS LAB-3 JUL ?? 81-P (STS-77) TELSTAR 3-B, AUSSAT-3, DOD PAM-14, MSL-12 JUL ?? 81-O (STS-78) DOD PAM-15, FORDSAT-3, USSB-A AUG ?? 81-R (STS-79) LEASECRAFT-101, ITALSAT-1 AUG ?? 81-S (STS-80) MSL-13, DOD PAM-16, WESTAR-B, RCA, DBS-2 SEP ?? 82-D (STS-V8) DOD SEP ?? 81-T (STS-81) DOD OCT ?? 91-A (STS-82) EOM-4, DOD PAM-17, STC DBS-F OCT ?? 91-B (STS-83) DOD NOV ?? 91-C (STS-84) SPACELAB D-4 DEC ?? 91-D (STS-85) MSL-14, SBTS-AR, ACTS DOD PAM-18 DEC ?? 92-A (STS-V9) NOT YET MANIFESTED DEC ?? 91-E (STS-86) USSB-B PLUS ?? 1989 (18 LAUNCHES) JAN ?? 91-F (STS-87) IML-2 FEB ?? 91-G (STS-88) MSL-15, WESTAR-9, DOD PAM-19 FEB ?? 91-H (STS-89) DOD MAR ?? 91-I (STS-90) SUNLAB-3, DBS LUX-B, GOES-I MAR ?? 92-B (STS-V10) NOAA-K, OSTA-9 MAR ?? 91-J (STS-91) DOD PAM-20, LEASECRAFT RETRIEVAL APR ?? 91-K (STS-92) MSL-16, DOD PAM-21, INTELSAT VI-6 APR ?? 91-L (STS-93) REFLIGHT OPPORTUNITY MAY ?? 91-M (STS-94) SHEAL-2, WESTAR-C JUN ?? 91-N (STS-95) MSL-17, DOD PAM-22, GOES-J, USSB-C JUN ?? 92-C (STS-V11) REFLIGHT OPPORTUNITY JUN ?? 91-O (STS-96) LDEF-2 RETRIEVAL JUL ?? 91-P (STS-97) MSL-18, INTELSAT VI-7 JUL ?? 91-Q (STS-98) LS LAB-4, TELSAT-L AUG ?? 91-R (STS-99) REFLIGHT OPPORTUNITY SEP ?? 91-S (STS-100) SP PLASMA-2, MSL-19 SEP ?? 92-D (STS-V12) REFLIGHT OPPORTUNITY SEP ?? 91-T (STS-101) RCA DBS-1 ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #245 ******************* 13-Sep-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #246 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 246 Today's Topics: Administrivia Relativity Space fishing lure [JKS: AIAA/NASA Proceedings] Voyager 2 news Ariane Failure ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Sep 85 13:29:00 PDT From: The Moderator Subject: Administrivia As you have no doubt noticed the Space Digest has been out of order for almost three weeks now. This system suffered a processor failure followed by a hard disk crash. The result of these problems is that although a Space Digest was sent out on both August 23rd and 24th (I presume) I have no record of them. Also on the 5th of September the system came up long enough to send out a digest but with a mostly old filesystem (May 14th 1985). So on that date some people may have received a Digest numbered 160 with some old mail (the whole contents of Digest #159) and some new mail. This Digest will be #246. This assumes that a Digest number 243 and 244 went out before the crash. I have renamed the damaged digest calling itself #160 (sans Digest #159) to number 245. If anyone has saved a copy of #243 or #244 I'd very much appreciate having copies sent to OTA@S1-A. Also if someone wants a copy of what #245 let me know. The Usenet connection doesn't seem to be working so load will probably be fairly light until that gets fixed. Ted Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 85 23:45:00 EDT From: Keith F. Lynch Subject: Relativity To: Gwyn@BRL.ARPA cc: SPACE-ENTHUSIASTS@MIT-MC.ARPA Date: Tue, 14 May 85 7:06:31 EDT From: Doug Gwyn (VLD/VMB) ... Both cases assume that there is a meaning to where the distant object "really is" and what its time "really is"; in general there is no single answer to these questions. Sure there is. The answer would be different if you were travelling at a different speed or in a different direction, but for any given observer (in relativity, people are all called 'observers', just as on a computer system, people are all called 'users') there is a very real time and location for other objects. ...Keith ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 1985 11:54-EST From: Nicholas.Spies@CMU-CS-H.ARPA Subject: Space fishing lure To: space@mit-mc Wouldn't hanging a probe into a cloud of charged particles be akin to Franklin's kite-fly (upside-down)? If the tether were conductive the probe might create a voltage differential with possibly shocking results! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 85 01:40:06 EDT From: Steven A. Swernofsky Subject: [JKS: AIAA/NASA Proceedings] To: AILIST@MIT-MC.ARPA, SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA MSG: *MSG 4505 Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1985 12:25 EDT From: JKS at MIT-OZ To: *ai at MIT-OZ Re: AIAA/NASA Proceedings DISTRIB: *AI EXPIRES: 09/18/85 12:29:26 JKS@MIT-OZ 09/11/85 12: 29:26 Re: AIAA/NASA Proceedings I have a number of papers presented at the AIAA/NASA Symposium on Automation, Robotics and Advanced Computing for the National Space Program. They are mostly high level surveys of what NASA would like to see. Drop by if you want to take a look at them or make copies. Ken (office = 832) ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 85 2144 PDT From: Ron Goldman Subject: Voyager 2 news To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA Uranus Looks Like 'Blue Marble' In First Color Photo By Voyager 2 By LEE SIEGEL AP Science Writer PASADENA, Calif. (AP) - Voyager 2's first color photograph of Uranus makes the solar system's seventh planet look like a ''blue marble,'' a NASA spokesman said Thursday. The space probe, due to fly past Uranus next Jan. 24, took the photograph July 15 when it was 153 million miles from the solar system's third largest planet, said Jim Doyle, a spokesman for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. The lab, which runs NASA's unmanned space program, released the composite photograph Thursday. ''The planet looks like a blue marble, just about that size'' in the photograph, Doyle said. The bluish tint is Uranus's actual color. Methane gas in the planet's atmosphere absorbs red light from incoming sunlight, leaving blue to reflect into space as the dominant visible color, he explained. The color photo was made from three black-and-white, narrow-angle camera photos of Uranus, filtered through blue, green and orange filters, respectively, then superimposed, Doyle said. Images of four of Uranus's five moons - Ariel, Umbriel, Titania and Oberon - were superimposed on the color image and their brightness enhanced 10 times, NASA's announcement said. They appear as tiny, barely visible white dots in the photo. ''The smallest of the five satellites, Miranda, is still not visible'' to Voyager 2, Doyle said. ''It's either too far away or behind the planet.'' The probe also was unable to photograph any of Uranus's clouds or its nine known rings, which ''are too narrow and dark to be seen at this time,'' Doyle said. Voyager 2, launched Aug. 20, 1977, will become the first spacecraft to fly past Uranus next year, at a distance of about 66,000 miles. Uranus is one of the solar system's giant, gaseous planets. The others are Jupiter, Saturn and Neptune. Uranus is four times the size of Earth. Jupiter, the solar system's largest plant, is 11 times the size of Earth. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 85 2148 PDT From: Ron Goldman Subject: Ariane Failure To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA Rocket Liftoff Fails KOUROU, French Guiana (AP) - Space Center officials blew up the European Space Agency's Ariane rocket less than 10 minutes after liftoff late Thursday when it moved off course and began falling, threatening inhabited areas, officials here said. The order to destroy was given immediately after the rocket, carrying two communications satellites, left its prescribed trajectory and lost altitude, the officials said. The failure was Ariane's third in 15 launches. French President Francois Mitterrand, on a stopover here on his way to French Polynesia, watched the failed launch of the European rocket, which was made to compete with the American Space Shuttle in the billion-dollar satellite launching business. ''It's obviously a great disappointment,'' said Frederic d'Allest, president of Arianespace, the European Space Agency's commercial arm. The Ariane was reported on course during the first minutes of its ascension before suddenly veering off course and losing altitude. D'Allest attributed the failure to a problem with the third-stage engine. ''The third stage ignited normally, but, very quickly, it appeared that the pressure in the combustion chamber was inferior to normal and the stage died out shortly after,'' he said. ''At that moment, the decision was made to destroy the rocket.'' The destroyed Ariane was to put into orbit the third of the European Communications Satellites series, the ECS-3, and the American Spacenet-3, built by RCA for GTE Spacenet. Liftoff at this space center on the northeast shoulder of South America was on schedule at 8:26 p.m. (7:26 p.m. EDT). The rocket was destroyed nine minutes after liftoff, the officials said. The Ariane was reported on course during the first minutes of its ascension. There were unconfirmed reports that it suddenly veered off course and lost altitude because of a propulsion problem in the third-stage motor. Ariane's two other failures were recorded May 23, 1980, on its second launch, and May 9, 1982, on its fifth. Since then, motors were revised, boosters were added and other important changes were made, leading to nine straight successes. ''It will work the next time,'' Mitterrand commented as he left the space center's Jupiter control room, where he monitored the liftoff. ''Yes, of course, I'm disappointed .... There is always a percentage of failures. But I'm mostly disappointed for the technicians and all those who worked on this project.'' ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #246 ******************* 17-Sep-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #247 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 247 Today's Topics: Re: Questions on Relativity ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 16 Sep 85 19:11 EST From: Steve Benz To: space-enthusiasts@mit-mc.ARPA Subject: Re: Questions on Relativity > Is it theoretically possible to create a device which, after being > "locked" onto an object, (e.g., the Earth), could always tell you your > velocity relative to that object (even after a period of near-light speed > travel, various maneuvers, etc.)? Well, I'd propose having this object measure the color of this object relative to when it was "locked" on. This would only measure the speed of the object and not the velocity, but it's better than nothing, right? Naturally, the pilot of a ship equipped with such a device would have to be careful that he didn't block the view for any extended period of time. Steve Benz Dept. Comp. Sci. Clemson U. mrspock.clemson@csnet-relay ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #247 ******************* 18-Sep-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #248 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 248 Today's Topics: Relativity, re #247 Launch of Soviet T-14 mission ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Sep 85 17:53:38 PDT From: Richard K. Jennings To: space@mit-mc Subject: Relativity, re #247 Re Steve Benz's proposal to lock onto color to determine relative velocity, Two problems: Radial velocity is only one component of relative velocity -- it is not clear how angular velocity can be measure via colors; As the radial velocity approached the speed of light, the measurement instrument would have to become (in the limit) infinitely precise. -- Rich. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 85 23:33:23 edt From: glenn@ll-vlsi (Glenn Chapman) To: SPACE@MIT-MC Subject: Launch of Soviet T-14 mission The USSR has launched a new manned mission to the Salyut 7 space station today (Sept 17). The Soyuz T-14 spacecraft has a 3 man crew, two of whom are new cosmonauts, while one spent time on Salyut 4 and 6. They are expected to dock to the space station tomorrow, which has a two man crew that has been up there for about 100 days. This launch suggests that the current crew will be up there for a long time as the Russians have generally switched Soyuz's every four months when a long duration mission was planned for the Salyut. It also indicates that the Salyut has been returned to operation by the repairs done by the crew on board it. Let us only hope that this continued Soviet presence in space will help NASA get the funds for our own space station. Glenn Chapman ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #248 ******************* 21-Sep-85 0349 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #249 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 249 Today's Topics: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #247 Removal from Mailing List Vol 5 #246 Soviet T-14 mission update Re: SPACE Digest V5 #248 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sender: "Michael M Cashen.SBDERX"@Xerox.ARPA Date: 18 Sep 85 02:40:02 PDT (Wednesday) Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #247 From: CASHEN.SBDERX@Xerox.ARPA To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.Arpa cc: CASHEN.SBDERX@Xerox.ARPA (Tuesday) Ref: Questions on Relativity Is time also relative to size? Am I correct in thinking that the scaled up speed of an insect in some instances would be as much as 600mph? If this is so, does that mean that insects think in a much quicker time frame than larger life forms, such as humans. Imagine, if you will, that a person had the ability to grow to an infinite height, ignoring of course the fact that his body would explode due to increases in pressure over surface area and other anatomical attributes. Soon that person has out-stripped the size of the earth and is still growing. At one stage this person could by simply taking one step, move from the earth to the Moon. However, at current levels of technology it would take us a minimum of about a week or two, to reach the same objective. On reflection, does this mean that although it only takes one step for our giant to reach the Moon, in what for him would be less than a second, would his second be our two weeks anyway. Thus, would the instant of his foot reaching the Moon be that of our space ship landing, given that both started at the same time? Is this concept illustrated by the way in which an insect must take several steps to cover the equivalent distance of a humans step. However, since an insects steps are so much more faster it may cover that distance in exactly the same time, less than a second??????? Mike ------------------------------ id AA08876; Wed, 18 Sep 85 15:07:00 pdt Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1985 15:02:43 PDT From: JOSE%USCVM.BITNET@Berkeley (Jose M Flores) To: SPACE@MIT-MC.ARPA (Hamid) Subject: Removal from Mailing List Please remove names from your mailing list from USCVM. Users have left and they are no longer in this system. JF ------------------------------ From: crash!bryan@sdcsvax.arpa Date: Wed, 18 Sep 85 11:17:13 PDT To: space@mit-mc.arpa Subject: Vol 5 #246 Sorry about posting this on the net. I don't know exactly what happened but I recieved 3 copies of SPACE vol 5 #246. I don't know which end it is on (mine maybe). I'm not complaining, just thought the moderator should know. Bryan R. Walker crash!bryan@ucsd {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax}!crash!bryan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 85 11:20:41 edt From: glenn@ll-vlsi (Glenn Chapman) To: SPACE@MIT-MC Subject: Soviet T-14 mission update The Soviet Soyuz T-14 spacecraft docked with the Salyut 7 space station yesterday (Sept 18). This mission, though not talked about in the news media, is already showing several interesting features. First the Russians have announced that this will be a eight day visit and that the returning crew will bring back the Soyuz T-13 craft. They have never given out that type of data at the time of docking before. Secondly one T-14 crew member, G. Grechko, will be staying behind on the Salyut with the crew that has already been there for about 100 days. Grechko has previously spent time on Salyut 4 and 6, while the returning crew are both rookies. This is the first time a new crew member has been added to space station mission that is already under way. In deed this is the type of thing one would see in a permently manned space station! Thirdly the exchange of the Soyuz's suggests that this Salyut will be manned for at least another 100 days. If the new Soyuz is taken to it's full rated time in orbit (about 180 days) it would mean that they may not be comming down before March '86. That would give the original Salyut crew a 280 odd day mission, and a new world's record for time in orbit (about 18% greater than the previous 237 day record). Finally to mount this type of mission suggests that the Salyut 8 replacement station, which was expected to be launched this year, probably will not be put in orbit for a while longer. At this rate the Russians will beat us to the permanently manned space station by about 7 or 8 years. Depressing isn't it. Glenn Chapman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 85 15:30:51 PDT From: "Niket K. Patwardhan" To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #248 from "Ted Anderson " One other comment on the color method of determining speed.... even when there is no radial velocity, only tangential velocity, you still get a red shift due to the time dilation effect! Thus without a knowledge of the direction, you cant even tell the speed! ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #249 ******************* 23-Sep-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #250 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 250 Today's Topics: Re:re: SPACE Digest V5 #247 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Sep 85 21:00:47 EDT From: Charles.Fineman@CMU-CS-SPICE Subject: Re:re: SPACE Digest V5 #247 To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A As I understand it. Time in a relative universe is RELATIVE to some for of periodic motion (e.g. the swinging of a pendulum or the frequency of light emited from a resonating atom). Since biological clocks are based on metabolism, insects probably do live in a speeded up time frame. Of course this has nothing to do with a time frame in Einstien's sense of the term. ~Charlie ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #250 ******************* 25-Sep-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #251 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 251 Today's Topics: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #250 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sender: "Michael M Cashen.SBDERX"@Xerox.ARPA Date: 25 Sep 85 03:15:27 PDT (Wednesday) Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V5 #250 From: CASHEN.SBDERX@Xerox.ARPA To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC.Arpa cc: CASHEN.SBDERX@Xerox.ARPA (Monday) ref: Date: 22 Sep 85 21:00:47 EDT From: Charles.Fineman@CMU-CS-SPICE Subject: Re:re: SPACE Digest V5 #247 To: BBoard.Maintainer@CMU-CS-A As I understand it. Time in a relative universe is RELATIVE to some for of periodic motion (e.g. the swinging of a pendulum or the frequency of light emited from a resonating atom). Since biological clocks are based on metabolism, insects probably do live in a speeded up time frame. Of course this has nothing to do with a time frame in Einstien's sense of the term. ~Charlie Dear Charlie, I am not satisfied by your answer. Does Einstein not explain the paradox's of his special theory etc. in terms of arbitrary observers in which events are relative to them alone. This observation is indepedent of their metabolic rate or biological clock. Just as Einstein hypothesised the ability of a person to reach the speed of light, I too hypothesis the ability of a person to grow to an infinite size. I am therefore asking the question, if we are able to pass through different time zones by approaching the speed of light, does this also apply to increases in size? Is time therefore, variable in many dimensions some of which we have no concept of? Mike ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #251 ******************* 27-Sep-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #252 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 252 Today's Topics: Soyuz T-13 leave Salyut 7 station ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Sep 85 10:22:52 edt From: glenn@ll-vlsi (Glenn Chapman) To: SPACE@MIT-MC Subject: Soyuz T-13 leave Salyut 7 station The Soyuz T-13 spacecraft separated from the Salyut 7 space station today (Sept 26) as expected and has returned to earth. On board was Vladimir Dzhanibkov, who spent about 110 days in space on the Salyut, and one of the original Soyuz T-14 crew (Grechko ?). They are leaving the newer Soyuz T-14 craft for the current Salyut crew. There are several new interesting points on this mission since my last mailing (Sept 17). First is the crew change with one of the original T-13 crew ( Victor Savinykh) staying with the space station along with two new crew members from the current flight. The Russians are calling this (correctly) the first crew rotation in space. Secondly Dzhanibkov, who is comming down, is the USSR's most experienced mission commander. He has five flights to his name (about one a year since 1980) as compared to a maximum of 3 for most other cosmonauts. (One other cosmonaut has 4 flights but the Russians do not count one of them because it was on the Soyuz 18A aborted mission). He was probably chosen to pilot the Soyuz T-13 flight because of the difficulty they expected it to have in docking with the Salyut which was experiencing communications/electrical problems. Maybe they want him down to train for a more demanding mission next year or possibly because he was not reacting properly to the long duration in space. Finally of there is the interesting mixture of having long an short duration people on the same crew. This means that the Savinykh can help the newer crew members integrate into the Salyut operation more quickly. Does this mean that Salyut 7 will be permently occupied until the replacement station is brought on line? Previously the Russians had said that crew rotations would not take place until the next space station was occupied. Mean while I have been getting letters from the L-5 society about the difficulty in getting NASA's current budget through without cuts. Oh well. Glenn Chapman ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #252 ******************* 28-Sep-85 0348 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #253 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 253 Today's Topics: shuttle launch schedule ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Sep 1985 13:27 PST From: Mike Kane Subject: shuttle launch schedule To: SPACE-ENTHUSIASTS@MIT-MC Reply-To: PRODMKT@ACC.ARPA Just a quick note re: the launch scheudules for VAFB The first flight from VAFB is scheduled for 20 March 1986. I don't remember exactly what was published on the net, since I managed to remove that particular file, but it was much later as I recall. What was the source of that launch schedule? Mike Kane (prodmkt@acc.arpa) ------ ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #253 ******************* 29-Sep-85 0347 OTA SPACE Digest V5 #254 To: SPACE@MIT-MC Reply-To: Space-Enthusiasts@MIT-MC SPACE Digest Volume 5 : Issue 254 Today's Topics: Landsat goes to private firm / Upcoming shuttle flight ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Sep 85 1641 PDT From: Ron Goldman Subject: Landsat goes to private firm / Upcoming shuttle flight To: space@MIT-MC.ARPA Government Turning Over Landsat Surveying Satellites To Private Firm By HARRY F. ROSENTHAL Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON (AP) - The government is turning over its money-losing Landsat earth-monitoring satellite system to a private company and throwing in a $250 million subsidy. Commerce Secretary Malcolm Baldrige said Friday the federal funding to Earth Observation Satellite Co., also known as Eosat, will be phased out over a five-year period. ''During the phase-out period, the company will receive a maximum of $250 million to build and operate two new satellites and to provide a new ground service and data processing system for the new spacecraft,'' the department said. Landsat photographs, taken from an altitude of more than 400 miles, have been sold by the government since 1972 to crop forecasters, oil prospectors, mining companies, forest managers and state and foreign governments. ''The American people have invested more than $1 billion in this system and we hope to see this investment capitalized into private sector jobs and opportunities here and overseas,'' Baldrige said in a statement. The government has lost millions of dollars on the operation, and there has been pressure to turn it over to private enterprise. Two satellites are operating currently, Landsat 4 and Landsat 5. The latter is running out of steering propellant and plans are being made to refuel it, using the space shuttle. Eosat will find foreign competition almost as soon as it takes over the system. A French-based company, Spot Image, plans to launch a rival satellite in November with the Ariane rocket. Japan also has an earth-sensing satellite in the works. Eosat, a joint venture of RCA and Hughes Aircraft Co., will operate the two existing satellites. In 1983, the administration proposed to turn over Landsat and government operated weather satellites to private operators. Congress embraced the Landsat idea, but balked at letting the weather satellites go. Last year, the congressional Office of Technology Assessment warned that Landsat's international free flow of information might be jeopardized by a transfer. Eosat's contract states that the data be marketed on ''a non-discriminatory basis.'' In March, David Stockman, then director of the White House Office of Management and Budget, balked at terms being worked out with Eosat and passed word to Senate Republicans that no subsidy would be forthcoming. Stockman complained that the contract didn't require Eosat to put up enough of its own money at the outset, and he expressed doubt the company would find a viable market for its pictures. America's Fourth Space Shuttle Set For Maiden Launch By HOWARD BENEDICT AP Aerospace Writer CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) - Atlantis, the fourth and possibly last space shuttle, makes its debut Thursday on a secrecy-shrouded military mission that reportedly will launch two satellites built to withstand nuclear assault. The Air Force has said Atlantis and its five-man crew will be launched sometime between 10:20 a.m. and 1:20 p.m. EDT Thursday. The precise time will be disclosed nine minutes before the planned liftoff. Throughout the flight, even less public information will be forthcoming from the Pentagon than was the case during the first all-classified Defense Department mission last January. Even the length of the flight is a secret, but the landing will be announced 24 hours in advance. Officials decline to reveal any details about the payload, but the Federation of American Scientists, citing public sources, reported last month the shuttle's cargo bay contains two Defense Satellite Communications System satellites, the advanced model known as DSCS-3. DSCS-3 satellites are designed to be jam-proof, have been shielded against the electromagnetic effects of nuclear explosions and have a special transponder over which the president could transmit emergency messages to nuclear forces. The Defense Department does not classify DSCS-3 satellites as secret, but as a matter of principal and precedent it has decided to place a secrecy label on most military flights of the shuttle. Officials said this policy will make it more difficult for Soviet spy ships that regularly operate off Cape Canaveral to monitor the launch and to learn the nature of any mission. Reporters were denied the pre-launch interviews and news conferences that are normally available with NASA shuttle crews, and they will not be able to monitor space-to-ground communications. On the January flight, the Air Force issued a statement every eight hours which said everything was going well aboard the shuttle Discovery. Those will be dropped on the upcoming flight. There will be announcements, however, if serious trouble develops. The commander of the 21st shuttle mission is Air Force Col. Karol Bobko. The others are Air Force Lt. Col. Ronald J. Grabe, Marine Maj. David C. Hilmers, Army Lt. Col. Robert C. Stewart and Air Force Maj. William A. Pailes. Atlantis is joining Columbia, Challenger and Discovery in the nation's fleet of space planes. It is the last one planned, although some congressmen have been pressing for a fifth vehicle to handle what they believe will be a heavy launch schedule in the 1990s when NASA constructs a permanent space station and the Pentagon has extensive plans for the reusable ships. Documents in the public record disclose the DSCS-3 satellite is a vast improvement over the now-operational DSCS-2 series, that it has a six-channel communications transponder and measures 81-by-77-inches with a solar panel wingspan of 38 feet. DSCS-3 provides superhigh-frequency communications for secure voice and high-data-rate transmissions. A specially designed antenna with electronically steerable beams is an anti-jamming feature, and it is the first military communications satellite built with materials designed to protect against the electromagnetic effects of a nuclear blast that an enemy might aim at it. The Pentagon plans to launch four DSCS-3 satellites into stationary orbits 22,300 miles up to provide global coverage for ships, planes and ground troops of all services. Troops in the field will be able to communicate with the satellites through portable antennas only 33 inches in diameter. Two spare satellites also will be placed in space. AP-NY-09-28-85 1238EDT *************** ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V5 #254 *******************