BABYL OPTIONS: Version: 5 Labels: Note: This is the header of an rmail file. Note: If you are seeing it in rmail, Note: it means the file has no messages in it.  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Jan 86 0845-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #1 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 2 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 1 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Happy New Year, Books - Ellison (2 msgs) & A Request Answer, Films - Books into Films & Young Sherlock Holmes, Radio - Announcing CBC SF Radio Documentaries & The Hobbit ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Jan 86 08:27:02 EST From: Saul Subject: Happy New Year Well folks, here it is beginning of January and the start of a new year of SF-LOVERS. This past year has been hectic with a (I believe) record setting total of 472 digests being sent out. Our mailer is gasping and wheezing but still hanging in there so I expect to bring you lots more this year. Possibly also a few surprises. Let me take a moment to remind everyone of the wonderful stuff in the SF-LOVERS archives here at Rutgers: T: Archive.V1.1 860 2200759 Archive.V2 771 1972324 Archive.V3 741 1895294 Archive.V4 705 1803432 Archive.V5 323 824576 Archive.V6 705 1804515 Archive.V7 232 591802 Archive.V8 670 1713235 Archive.V9 1468 3756676 Down-In-Flames.Txt.1 10 23119 Drwho.Guide.1 3 6789 Galactica.Guide.1 11 25925 Hitch-Hikers-Guide-To-The-Net.Txt.1 36 90198 Hugos.Txt.2 6 14606 Klingonaase.Txt.1 3 6477 Lost-In-Space.Guide.1 17 41061 Nebulas.Txt.4 16 40386 Outerlimits.Guide.1 7 16093 Prisoner.Guide.2;P777700 3 5796 Sf-Lovers.Apr-85.1 207 529673 .Aug85.1 379 967962 .Feb-85.1 266 679516 .Jan-85.1 231 589274 .Jul-85.1 307 783629 .June-85.1 353 902226 .Mar-85.1 214 546756 .May-85.1 302 771596 .Nov85.1 185 473511 .Oct85.1 252 644635 .Sep85.1 240 612857 Star-Trek.Guide.1 9 21405 The-Enchanted-Duplicator.Txt.1 40 101058 Twilight-Zone.Guide.1 29 72906 Files marked with an asterisk (*) are currently offline due to space limitations. If anyone wished these files they should contact me. For those unfamiliar with Tenex/Tops-20, the first number is the number of Tenex disk pages, the second is the number of characters in the file, for checksumming purposes if you FTP the file. All of the online files are available via the ANONYMOUS login of FTP. Please folks, if FTP is unavailable to you do not ask me to mail you these files. I cannot do it. As a reminder to both new and old readers, all requests to be added to or deleted from this list, problems, questions, etc., should be sent to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@RUTGERS. Submissions for the digest are to be sent to SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS. If you use the wrong address for the wrong purpose your message may get ignored. Also, please keep submissions to one topic. That makes it a lot easier for me to work with and it is easier for others to reply as well. And now I'd like to wish you all a healthy and happy New Year and get back to the purpose of this digest mainly talking SF! Saul ------------------------------ From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison quits TWILIGHT ZONE Date: 21 Dec 85 12:59:21 GMT How very thoughtful of Jeff Meyer to come so resoundingly to the defence of Harlan Ellison. Evidently he has more information about the approach Ellison was taking to the Santa Claus TZ story than the rest of us, since he sees fit to tell us how it was going to end. You would think he would have at least headed his rebutal with a spoiler warning message, in that case. I see no evidence of TV shying away from difficult issues. Therefore, I must conclude that Ellison's treatment was yanked not because it discussed prejudice (hardly a taboo topic on the tube), but rather because iwasn't worth wading through his ugly scenario to get to his rather feeble moral. Asking the question "Does Santa Claus like blacks and hispanics?" just so he can answer "Yes" hardly makes Ellison the new champion of civil rights. Jeff then goes on to suggest that there is no difference between TV accurately and movingly portraying the persecution of Jews and Ellison writing a fantasy about a mean-spirited Santa Claus. I suppose Rod Serling would say that the only place where those had anything in common was ... ... in the Twilight Zone. :-) RJS in Toronto c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Cc: m15126%mwvm@mitre.ARPA Subject: Re: Re: Harlan Ellison quits TWILIGHT ZONE Date: 27 Dec 85 13:59:43 EST (Fri) From: Burgess Allison >>... terrifying thought that Santa did not like black and hispanic >>children would have been put in some children's minds. Even if >>the resolution of the episode had proved otherwise, the mere >>asking of the question may have been inappropriate to ask in prime >>time. > >I don't buy this one bit. I'm sure Ellison's episode would have >ended with a clear and emphatic point that Santa Claus comes to all >children. That's the whole point! It doesn't matter how the episode ends. The problem with the story line is that it suggests that Santa *might* be a racist. The accusation alone is enough to do the damage. It's the same thing as if 60 Minutes does an hour-long special on whether you're an embezzler or not. Even if they conclude that you're not, or announce that you've not been convicted, let's see how long it is before you work on the payroll project again. If you're put on trial for raping a woman in an elevator, and then found innocent, let's see how many women start taking the stairs when you're around. Note that we have to wait to the end of the show to find out whether Santa is or isn't a piece of disgusting slime. Let's assume (incorrectly) that the kids watch the entire show and see the saving-grace ending. Are they convinced? I don't know whether they would be, do you? Do you think they remember King Kong making lunch out of the city so nice they named it twice, or that he got killed in the end? It's astounding how many monsters from movies and TV -- who were killed at the end of their respective shows -- are able somehow to come back to life and find their way into children's closets (usually about bedtime). >I'm getting very tired of the idea that even the suggestion of a >bigoted or prejudiced idea, no matter how quickly refuted, will >damage children irrevocably. I agree with what you actually said here, but the problem with the story line is *not* that the concept of prejudice is merely presented. (Indeed, prejudice is a fact of life and something that we, as parents, need to deal with in raising our children.) The problem is that it presents an entirely new concept that Santa might hold to these racial biases. One, this needlessly attacks a pleasant and entertaining character that's an integral part of many children's Christmas. And two, for many of those children who have bought into the Santa myth completely, this might actually serve as a lesson that racism is OK! ("See Mom, Santa doesn't like those people either" ... an unattractive scenario, made even more unattractive if "Mom" knowingly chuckles, or openly agrees.) >Do you believe that kids believe every single thing that someone >says on TV? I don't think so ... You're right, they don't. But ... >... they watch the story, see what happens to (and with) the >characters, and make judgements from there. You obviously know nothing about the attention span of a four-year old. >Perhaps the question is whether TZ deserves a later time period; ... and another ARPAnetter writes: >Since when has TZ been a kiddy show? If you are upset about kids >viewing it, two solutions: move it later in the evening, present a >notice about parental guidance is suggested. Agreed. And as much as some parents might opt for the later time slot (so as not to have to explain to the kid why they can't watch a certain show), I'm a parent that would rather see the parental guidance warning. That way, all the other TZ episodes are early enough for my children to watch, and I can skip just this one. (BTW, not a kiddy show? I encourage my kids to watch TZ & Amazing. I think they're much better than the usual TV palaver. But this? This would have been in incredible bad taste. And rest assured that *anything* about Santa at Christmastime is a kiddy show.) >It's the same thing, in any media, if the viewers cannot discern >between truth and fiction, should we ban that story? ... If you >are afraid some viewers cannot understand the difference then stick >a disclaimer in the front. The disclaimer is *not* needed because fiction is being presented, or because bad things are happening. It's needed because we as parents need some indication when TV is about to do something that's both out of line and out of character. Dallas? The A-Team? All in the Family? Those are fine because we already have a general idea of what's on the show. JR is a sleaze; Archie's a bigot; the A-Team is into blowing up (notice that no-one ever dies, though). If I don't want my kids to watch Jeeps being blown up, but then I let them watch the A-Team, that's *my* mistake. But if I see Santa Claus come up, then Santa starts in on an Archie Bunker imitation, whoa! That's TV's mistake. >We don't need screeds like RJS's which assume guilt. RJS will have >a wonderful time in Hollywood, I think they are looking for >spineless irrationals. Nah. Really they're looking for courageous rational people who close their arguments by calling people names. Yours in user-surliness, Burgess Allison ------------------------------ To: Bob Guernsey Subject: Re: Starlost... a novel? Date: 26 Dec 85 10:18:57 PST (Thu) From: Jim Hester The novel was "Phoenic Without Ashes" by Edward Bryant and Harlan Ellison. It was a novelization of the screenplay, which Ellison also had a hand in creating. He was so disgusted with the way the TV series came out that I would be amazed if he ever wrote any sequils, or even novelized episodes other than the pilot. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news; I would have been interested in seeing how Ellison would have continued it also. ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: SF movies Date: 27 Dec 85 03:06:52 GMT > From: ISM780!dianeh (Diane Holt) [Responding to a posting of mine.] > CHARLY *better* than Flowers_for_Algernon??? Yuk! The film wasn't > bad, if you *don't* compare it to the book -- but once you do... > > PLANET OF THE APES was an abomination compared to the book. It's a > typical Hollywood product -- "Hey, this sounds great...apes > running the world and having humans as slaves...yeah, and we can > tie in a Third World War at the same time...Great!" The book was > subtle and intriguing and had *nothing* to do with our blowing > ourselves up. Read it sometime. Where in my posting did I claim that either of these films was *better* than the book it's derived from?? The original comment that I was responding to claimed that no good movie was ever made from a good book. I listed examples that, in my opinion, showed otherwise. PLANET OF THE APES was a good novel. PLANET OF THE APES was a good movie. Whether either is better than the other is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Please read what I have to say before flaming. As for CHARLY, I beg to differ. The film was not as good as the *short story* "Flowers for Algernon", but I still think it's better than the novel version. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 85 11:59 PST From: Craig W. Reynolds Subject: the glass man sequence (in Young Sherlock Holmes) Cc: film@WHITE >From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu >>(Well, I also liked the "glass man". :-) > ... If you mean the glass man special-effect, I agree. It was >the one most consistent with the plot. ... This sequence was the most recent tour de force of the gang from what used to be "the computer division of Lucasfilm" and is now (or about to be) a separate company called "Pixar" (that being the name of their graphics hardware product line). Alvy Ray Smith, speaking in LA at a recent program of computer animation sponsored by the Director's Guild of America, mentioned the amzing statistic that there were about 50 texture maps involved in the calculation of each pixel in the animation. It went by before I could look closely, but I belive that at least in one of the scenes, there is simulation of depth-of-focus. The glass man is holding his sword toward the "camera" and it can be seen to be sharp at the tip, but appropriately fuzzy back at the hilt end. Yow! ------------------------------ From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Announcing CBC SF Radio Documentaries Date: 25 Dec 85 02:22:57 GMT OTHER WORLDS, OTHER MINDS A SCIENCE FICTION ODYSSEY Three One-Hour Radio Programs of Interviews, Readings and Commentary Written and Narrated by ROBERT J. SAWYER Produced by BERNIE LUCHT Monday, January 6, 1986: ALIEN MINDS Monday, January 13, 1986: MACHINES THAT THINK Monday, January 23, 1986: STARS IN OUR EYES 9:05 to 10:00 PM (9:35 to 10:30 PM in Newfoundland) On the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation's IDEAS Radio Series Among those heard: Isaac Asimov Shawna McCarthy John Robert Colombo Judith Merril Samuel R. Delany Frederik Pohl Thomas M. Disch Spider Robinson Gardner Dozois Stanley Schmidt Ursula K. LeGuin Baird Searles Jon Lomberg Elisabeth Vonarburg All Canadians should be able to receive these programs, as well as most Americans living near the Canada-U.S. border. [Moderator's Note: What follows was a large listing of all the CBC radio stations which will be carrying the program. The listing was deleted due to lack of space. If anyone out there is interested, please contact the poster for the list of stations.] Robert J. Sawyer [RJS] Posted through the kindness of: Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 85 17:59:05 PST From: lah%miro@BERKELEY.EDU (Commander RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Hunting for the Hobbit on tape... Recently, my husband played for me a tape which he had recorded from a radio broadcast of Nicol Williamson ("Excalibur"s Merlin) reading the complete Hobbit. Wonderful characterisation, with Beorn having a strong Scots burr, Bilbo with a West Country (Dorset, Cornwall) accent, the Dwarves sounding Yorkshire/Norse and Gandalf as a nasal- twangy Oxbridge scholar. Unfortunately, David's tape is not complete. Where can we find this recording these days? Is it the set boxed in what looks like a salt cod box that is available in some bookstores? Is it actually a record set rather than a tape set? Does anyone know anything about it? Help? Thanks, Leigh Ann ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Jan 86 0921-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #2 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 2 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 2 Today's Topics: Books - Chalker & Geston & McCaffrey & Sexual Slant in Novels (4 msgs), Films - Warriors of the Wind, Radio - The Hobbit, Television - Star Trek ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: birtch!oleg@caip.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev) Subject: Re: Spirits of flux & anchor; Jack Chalker Date: 26 Dec 85 19:08:27 GMT cjn@calmasd.UUCP (Cheryl Nemeth) writes: >I just finished _Soul Rider_. I get the feeling that Chalker has >one general idea and that's where most of his books come from. >This has the usual people being thrown into an unfamiliar world and >given very different physical forms than what they had before. >Unfortunately, this was rather dry. I could never identify with >any of the characters and the conclusion was less than satisfying. >The details of the worlds of flux were interesting, but unless you >like to read special effects, this one is not worth reading. I disagree. True, Chalker tends to have a single general premise : people get transformed and adopt/struggle/survive. It's a familiar idea to those who read Chalker : sex change(4 Lords of Diamond), species change(Well World), mind swap (Identity Matrix), physical change or mutilation ( Messiah Choice, Web of Chosen, others), body change ( And the Devil Will Drag You Under). At the same time these are only devices to create a situation which would be impossible to create otherwise. I have just finished "The Birth Of Flux and Anchor"(book 4 of Soul Rider series) and I find the series very coherent and much more than mere special effects. It's a study in human depravity, warped mentality and the meaning of wars and revolutions. There is a number of infuriating and enraging things happening in the book (and in real life) that can not be analyzed from a single point of view to be understood. If only for showing how sometimes it's better to leave things as they are (people suffer, etc) rather than destroy them ( and kill millions of innocents in the process) these books are worth a read. And don't complain about a "less than satisfying" conclusion! Chalker always treats the first 3 volumes of Soul Rider as ONE book! YOu have NOT read the conclusion : it's in vol.3 - "Masters of Flux and Anchor"! And for explanations of how things started and how they work (what is Flux?) -- read "The Birth of Flux and Anchor", book 4 of Soul Rider (read it last in the series!). Over all, I found it an engrossing and entertaining series of books... As long as you keep in mind that the end of a chapter is not the end of the story ;-) Oleg Kiselev. ...!{trwrb|scgvaxd}!felix!birtch!oleg ...!{ihnp4|randvax}!ucla-cs!uclapic!oac6!oleg ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 29 Dec 1985 10:07:25-PST From: redford%jeremy.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (John Redford) Subject: Mark Geston Re: Brian Ritchie's comments on Mark Geston I'm glad to see that Geston has another fan; his books are hard to find. "Out of the Mouth of the Dragon" is an old favorite, full of memorably morbid scenes: the fighter planes decaying on the floor of the cathedral, the taciturn outlanders in olive-drab tinkering with their howitzers while the knights party in gay pavilions, the Last Supper staged with skeletons in the desert. I think the other book that Ritchie mentioned was "The Lords of the Starship", which is a little more common in the used book stores. There are two more recent books by Geston, "The Day Star" and "The Siege of Wonder". The premise of "The Day Star" is that there is a succession of parallel worlds, connected by a mysterious road. As you travel down the road the worlds become fuller and more marvelous because they feel the corroding effects of the Time Wind less and less. The protagonist is born in the city of R, where the Time Wind comes howling down the streets, destroying dreams and dulling thoughts. He makes friends with a strange old man who tends a beacon up on the hill. The beacon is there to protect the ships of the final city, the city at the end of the road. These ships search the ocean looking for pieces of the Day Star, the shield that will block out the Time Wind forever. The boy and the old man find their own piece of the Star and set out on the road to return it to the final city. A curious and evocative story. In "The Siege of Wonder", magic and science have been battling for centuries. Magic relies on some people's ability to exploit parallel worlds. The science side has discovered this too, and is slowly gaining an edge. A spy with a video eye is sent over to the magic side, and loses his loyalties. Not up to "The Day Star" or "Out of the Mouth of the Dragon", but worth reading. Does anyone know of other books by Geston? Does anyone know anything about Geston himself? I've never seen him at cons. His books are dark and melancholy, but worth looking for. John Redford DEC-Israel ------------------------------ Date: 30 Dec 85 23:12:00 PST From: Subject: KILLASHANDRA by Anne McCaffrey While Christmas shopping, I came across a (new) hardcover by Anne McCaffrey titled KILLASHANDRA. Anne McCaffrey is "the lady with the dragon books", none of which I have ever read, because I'm not really into cute fantasies; but several years ago I stumbled over a review of "The Crystal Singer" in some feminist magazine (Savvy ?) at a friend's house, and it made me pick the books up and I loved it. I read the crystal singer as the story of someone who has a very special relationship with her job; she loves it even though it consumes her totally, and finally will destroy her. I think many programmers feel that way about their job. So anyway; this a sequel to "The Crystal Singer", and it is good. The best hint I can give without getting into spoilers is that the flavor is a lot like Asimov's Robot Mystery stories. And for a fan of classic Asimov like myself, that's a pretty hot recommendation. If you can afford hardcovers, by all means get it now! Lars Poulsen Advanced Computer Communications ------------------------------ From: hlexa!hsf@caip.rutgers.edu (Henry Friedman) Subject: Should book ads disclose sexual slant? Date: 27 Dec 85 16:29:38 GMT Recently I bought an sf novel from the Quality Paperback Book Club, Samuel R. Delany's "Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand." The book club's blurb had read something like: "drama of life, death and sexuality in the distant future." The problem I have with this is that the ad didn't disclose that the "sexuality" was predominantly gay sexuality. Despite some features of interest, I stopped reading the book about half way through, when it became evident that just about all the romance and sex was to be gay. Upon opening the cover, I had noted that Delany had also written "Dhalgren", which I HAD enjoyed (because of its unusual dreamscape development), even though much or most of the sex in that was also gay. (My only real annoyance was when the hero said something like, straights who won't engage in bisexual affairs must have a mean-spirited streak.) Now, I'm not saying that I couldn't enjoy ANY novel with a gay theme, any more than I'm saying that gays wouldn't enjoy any straight novel. But, if the novel isn't "great literature," an important component of one's enjoyment is usually the ability to identify with the major characters. This leads to my questions (at the risk of getting flamed as homophobic, etc.): 1) Should ads for novels at least suggest whether the sex/romance is predominantly straight or gay? (I don't think this would be necessary if the main themes are not romantic, such as novels about social/political oppression.) 2) Should it make any difference? In other words, should it have mattered to me? 3) Was it my fault for not remembering or knowing that Delany's sf writing has a gay slant? 4) Do I have a point in objecting to the way the book club advertised the book? 5) Was the book such a work of creative genius that it transcended such considerations? Henry Friedman ------------------------------ From: bu-cs!awc@caip.rutgers.edu (Alex Cannon) Subject: Sexual Slant in Novels - "Stars in My Pocket..." Date: 28 Dec 85 22:56:00 GMT >to identify with the major characters. This leads to my questions >(at the risk of getting flamed as homophobic, etc.): > >1) Should ads for novels at least suggest whether the sex/romance > is predominantly straight or gay? (I don't think this would be > necessary if the main themes are not romantic, such as novels > about social/political oppression.) This is only my opinion (that applies to everything I say here); it makes no difference to me whether the sex in a novel is straight or gay, unless I'm looking for pornography. In that case, I'd like to know the sexual slant (that's usually not hard to figure out from the cover). I too, read "Stars in My Pocket...", and I was indifferent at the sex scenes, but they did not significantly affect my reaction to the book. I put it down halfway through because it was a ponderous, unreadable mess. I don't believe that the sex/romance was the major theme. >2) Should it make any difference? In other words, should it have > mattered to me? There's no "should". If you dislike gay (or straight) sex, I can't think of a compelling reason NOT to mention the type of sex on the cover of a novel. After all, the box any appliance comes in tells you what color the thing is... :-) Publishers, though, are not likely to identify novels in this manner because they hope to sell them to *everybody*. (If anyone has a good reason for disguising the sexual slant in a novel, please correct me.) >3) Was it my fault for not remembering or knowing that Delany's > sf writing has a gay slant? Since it doesn't seem likely that it would be labeled as having a gay slant, I guess it's your responsibility to either discover or remember that Delany writes about gay characters. BTW, I met Samuel Delany at a S. F. Writer's of America party a few years back (he tells everybody to call him Chip). We talked for a while, which was a real thrill for me, because he's one of my favorites. He's a very warm, friendly person. >4) Do I have a point in objecting to the way the book club > advertised the book? Maybe. Send them a letter, asking why the sexual bias wasn't specifically mentioned. I'd guess that either they wanted people to buy it who wouldn't if they knew the kind of sex in the book, or they wanted to show they don't discriminate against gays, or both. Or maybe they just reprinted what Delaney's publisher sent them, without reading the book. If it's important to you, ask them to include sexual slant in ads in the future; maybe they'll do it. >5) Was the book such a work of creative genius that it transcended > such considerations? Jesus Christ, no! However, there is another book by Delany, "The Einstein Intersection", in which the sex is straight, gay, and hermaphroditic (something for everybody! :-) ) which I think is worth reading even if you dislike sex which isn't of your persuasion. The mood Delany creates in that one is fascinating. Alex Cannon Boston University ------------------------------ From: well!rooter@caip.rutgers.edu (Brian Mavrogeorge) Subject: Re: Should book ads disclose sexual slant? Date: 30 Dec 85 05:38:34 GMT Congratulations on experiencing what gay people do everytime they read the great "classics" of our time. I suppose for some sexual orientation labeling might be appropriate but would so much better if you could learn to celebrate others sexuality. Sort of like when I read most novels which contain abundant depictions of heterosexuality -- I dont fint it particularly exciting but certainly interesting -- and I certainly wouldn't stop reading the book because it had too much heterosexuality in it. If the depictions were exceedingly graphic I might stop but because of the explicitness not the sex of the participants. No, I don't accuse you of being a flaming homophobe. Yours was a honest question. I might suggest tthat you read the "20 questions to ask a heterosexual" that were previously posted. You may be close to a consciousness raising - go for it!! ------------------------------ From: bbncc5!sdyer@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Dyer) Subject: Re: Should book ads disclose sexual slant? Date: 30 Dec 85 03:03:39 GMT I think Christine Robertson (globetek!chris) said it as well as anyone could. Actually, I'm glad this guy brought Delaney's book up, because I just purchased it, taking a chance that I remembered its mention a long long time ago here on net.motss. On the other hand, I wasn't SURE that this was the book, and given my aversion to SF in general, and the fact that the cover really didn't say much about its "orientation", I was afraid myself that I would have to wade through (shudder) pages of straight sex as well as SF writing! :-) Talk about being cheated out of $3.95! Steve Dyer dyer@harvard.harvard.edu harvard!dyer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 85 14:54:39 est From: Joe Turner Subject: Warriors of the Wind sdcrdcf!markb@caip.rutgers.edu writes: >What do you mean that no storyline was left out? The whole >explanation of why Xandra (I much prefered the name NAUSICAA) >thought she could do any thing to prevent the war was left out. >The cut material shows that Xandra can telepathically communicate >with the giant bugs. When I said ``left out'', I meant that they did not alter the plot or change the storyline. They did not edit for plot, they edited for time. Throughout the film, Nausicaa (Xandra) is shown to have a relationship with the giant bugs that is *definitely* not normal. What is more, the climax of the film does not depend on whether or not she can communicate telepathically. All the bugs care about is that she has returned the young bug, and they realise that she is basically a cool dude. Joe Turner Joe Turner 329 Ward Street, Newton Centre MA 02159 (617)/969-5993 cutter@UMASS-BOSTON.csnet ringwld!cutter@cca-unix.arpa ------------------------------ From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: Hunting for the Hobbit on tape... Date: 27 Dec 85 19:32:30 GMT lah%miro@BERKELEY.EDU writes: > Recently, my husband played for me a tape which he had recorded > from a radio broadcast of Nicol Williamson ("Excalibur"s Merlin) > reading the complete Hobbit. Wonderful characterisation, with > Beorn having a strong Scots burr, Bilbo with a West Country > (Dorset, Cornwall) accent, the Dwarves sounding Yorkshire/Norse > and Gandalf as a nasal- twangy Oxbridge scholar. > > Unfortunately, David's tape is not complete. Where can we find > this recording these days? Is it the set boxed in what looks like > a salt cod box that is available in some bookstores? Is it > actually a record set rather than a tape set? Does anyone know > anything about it? Help? The recording you heard was from a record set available from Argo Records, and as far as I know, it's still available. The salt cod box version is a set of cassettes from the National Public Radio broadcasts, and I can't vouch for it's quality, having never heard it. The same people (NPR) also did a complete Lord of the Rings, available in a larger box... Mike Farren uucp: {dual, hplabs}!well!farren Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667 USnail: 390 Alcatraz Ave., Oakland, CA 94618 ------------------------------ From: prism!jib@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 26 Dec 85 19:36:00 GMT Although a color version of the cage obviously DID exist when the Menagerie was produced, it has since been lost. Rodenberry has a full copy of the cage, but it is a black & white print. The preceding is based on statements made by Rodenberry at Trek cons. Perhaps Paramount will find a copy hidden in a basement somewhere. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Jan 86 0943-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #3 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 2 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 3 Today's Topics: Books - King & Sexual Slant in Novels (2 msgs), Films - The Lensman & Enemy Mine & Books into Films, Miscellaneous - Children Believing What They See ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Dec 85 10:06 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: King The Running Man by Stephen King (alias Bachman) Best of the Bachman Books and, to my knowledge, King's only real SF. But when is the borrowing of an idea theft? That's been bothering me ever since I heard about this story. Okay, the story is set in a future world where people risk life and limb for money and prizes on televised game shows. Our hero is a contestant on a show where he must run from hired killers. Much of his flight is televised and viewers can phone in to inform on our hero, and let the killers know where he is. The above describes both The Running Man and "The Prize of Peril" by Robert Sheckley. There's also some similarity in plot to King's The Long Walk and Sheckley's "The People Trap," too, but that's not as pronounced. Now, the rest of the plot is different. Sheckley's is an idea short story, a logical developement of that initial idea, with viewers of the game show also helping the contestant. King's is a black novel, set in a 1984 style world, where everyone is out to get the hero, including all the law-inforcement and government folks. It makes less sense, but it's much more scary which is, after all, what you expect from King. But it still seems to me that King must have gotten the idea from the Sheckley short story and it bothers me that no acknowledgement to Sheckley was given. Lisa ------------------------------ From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Sexual Slant in Novels - "Stars in My Pocket..." Date: 30 Dec 85 17:41:55 GMT >1) Should ads for novels at least suggest whether the sex/romance > is predominantly straight or gay? The Science Fiction Book Club routinely puts warnings on books with material that that might bother some of its readers. They don't describe it explicitly beyond 'violence' or 'sexual themes' but it is enough to warn away readers sensitive to this kind of stuff (and attract the rest of us...) How do you tactfully warn readers of 'gay' or 'straight' sex? Remember, the ads are read by everyone and so the ads have to be a LOT more conservative than the books they advertise (Warning: this book may be offensive to midget negro eskimos with a Dr. School fetish?) I suggest, rather, that you read the various reviews out there -- Tom Easton in Analog, A.J. Budrys in Fantasy & SF, the group from Locus, and track your reactions to books they review to the way they review it. If there is questionable material in a book, someone will mention it (I think A.J. talked about the sex in SIMPLGOS). Even more important, you'll start finding people who either like the things like like all the time, or hate the stuff you like all the time. Either way, when you learn how to read the critics, you can go a long way towards figuring out what books to read and avoid. Sometimes, for example, I find I prefer running into a critic that hates the stuff I like. 9 times out of 10 I find that when Gene Siskel pans a movie, I'm going to love it. This doesn't mean he's wrong, it just means his tastes are different enough from mine to be a good indicator for me. That is the primary job of a critic, I feel. > I put it down halfway through because it was a ponderous, > unreadable mess. I don't believe that the sex/romance was the > major theme. I don't think it had a theme. I made it about 2/3 of the way through, personally, before I put it down because I simply didn't care what happened... >2) Should it make any difference? In other words, should it have > mattered to me? Everyone finds things that bothers them. Whether it 'should' or not is beside the point. I found some of the themes in 'Courtship Rite' by Kingsbury to be intolerable, personally. Everyone has sensitive spots. > There's no "should". If you dislike gay (or straight) sex, I > can't think of a compelling reason NOT to mention the type of sex > on the cover of a novel. I disagree. How is the publisher going to know what is going to bother/offend every one of their readers? That is more the purpose of the critics, I think. We definitely want to avoid what the record industry is getting into... > After all, the box any appliance comes in tells you what color the > thing is... :-) Publishers, though, are not likely to identify > novels in this manner because they hope to sell them to > *everybody*. (If anyone has a good reason for disguising the > sexual slant in a novel, please correct me.) Well, if the color is blue, I might agree..... One good reason why a publisher might not want to sell to 'everybody' is because a good percentage of the 'everybody' (also known as the great unwashed) would probably try to burn some of the books... Just ask Vonnegut >3) Was it my fault for not remembering or knowing that Delany's > sf writing has a gay slant? What if it was your first exposure to an author? Again, learning to trust a good critic helps you locate new authors and avoid others. >4) Do I have a point in objecting to the way the book club > advertised the book? > Maybe. Send them a letter, asking why the sexual bias wasn't > specifically mentioned. I'd guess that either they wanted people > to buy it who wouldn't if they knew the kind of sex in the book, > or they wanted to show they don't discriminate against gays, or > both. Writing and asking about their policy might not be a bad idea. There may be a discrimination aspect to it, but I doubt it. More likely, they are only reacting to previous complaints about ANY sexual slant. >5) Was the book such a work of creative genious that it transcended > such considerations? no. I think it was a great attempt at a seminal work that didn't quite succeed. Chuq Von Rospach sun!chuq@decwrl.DEC.COM {hplabs,ihnp4,nsc,pyramid}!sun!chuq ------------------------------ From: rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) Subject: Re: Sexual Slant in Novels - "Stars in My Pocket..." Date: 31 Dec 85 14:50:30 GMT Disclosing sexual bias in a book? Advertising its sexuality? Hey, what is this? It sounds like some looney project from Andrea Dworkin or some other political crazy. Apply any of these recommendations to books "slanted" to heterosexuality (god forbid!); the result would be clearly perceived as off the wall, AND obnoxious by more than a few readers. Why do publishers have any economic interest in "advertising" the book's sexuality? They'd probably lose money if they adopted such a policy. After all, you DID buy the book, even if you didn't read all of it. With your objections, knowing its "sexual slant" in advance would have meant you wouldn't have made the purchase in the first place. I find the allusion to a kind of "truth in advertising" idea applied 1) to sexual matters; and 2) to what is though of as a minority orientation, really offensive. And it smacks of puritanism. Finally, it betrays a lack of knowledge of publishing: publishers are legally free to put anything they like on book covers; not even the author has ANY control over what goes on them. The disclaimers being suggested are not only utterly irrelevant to publishing practices, they imply a warped kind of public service at odds with what publishing houses see as effective and appropriate cover advertising. Given the superficiality of many readers' aims, positive deception is valuable in LURING readers into buying and reading books. Think of how many of the classics of world literature have to be "marketed" to get people to consider looking at them at all. Nowadays, the way to do it is to turn the book into a teleplay for Masterpiece Theater with lots of production value and famous actors. So, since when has honesty been a policy in publishing? Why should it be? Who wants it to be (certainly not propsective readers!)? Book covers (& their art, from Frank Frazetta to David Hockney) are SUPPOSED to be hype, deceptive, literarily irrelevant, complete facades. Ron Rizzo ------------------------------ From: nmtvax!wildstar@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Lensman in Video Date: 29 Dec 85 21:56:47 GMT Does anyone know if some movie producer plans to translate the Lensman series (by Doc Smith) into a series of motion pictures? Or if Marvel or DC plan to render it in comic form? I think it may be a nice thing to see. Very Truly Yours, Andrew Jonathan Fine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Dec 85 08:21:17 est From: Carol Morrison Subject: Review: Enemy Mine (no spoilers) I still remember reading 'Enemy Mine' in IASFm ten or so years ago. I agree with whoever it was that said it's probably the best thing Longyear ever wrote. Although it has the problem of his other works that the idea is not new (Longyear admits that he took the plot from a movie - 'Hell in the Pacific', I believe was the name - about an American and a Japanese stranded on a Pacific island during WWII), and although it employs tried-and-true heartstring pullers, it successfully walks the line between sentiment and sentimentality. In the movie,'Enemy Mine', many of the story's details have been changed, mostly to make it more action-oriented, but the changes do not violate the spirit of the story (in contrast to the changes in the movie 'Dune', for example). 'Enemy Mine', the movie, is a good, old-fashioned tear-jerker, just like the novella. While it does not contain the fanatical attention to special effects detail that characterizes, for example, Lucas's Star Wars movies (worst gaffe that I noticed was too-transparent molten metal - obviously colored water), neither does it lapse into the teeth-gritting cuteness of, say, E.T. (E.T. gets drunk, E.T. gets dressed up in girl's clothes), as it could easily have done. It is rated PG13, due to the clear and frequently articulated cursing that goes on (mostly sh*t), and to a couple of gory scenes. I took my five-year-old to see it, and during the goriest moments I wished I hadn't, though in retrospect I don't think he understood what was going on in them; he left the theater happy, and talked in 'Drac' all the way home. A seven or eight-year-old might well be bothered more. My only objections to the movie are the occasional lapses in special effects, and the fact that it's not intrinsically an sf story. In spite of those flaws, it was well done. I enjoyed it, and recommend it. On a scale of -4 to 4, I give it a 3. Carol Morrison ------------------------------ From: ISM780!dianeh@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Re: SF movies [was Re: Emeny Mine] Date: 31 Dec 85 05:51:00 GMT boyajian@decwrl writes: >Where in my posting did I claim that either of these films was >*better* than the book it's derived from?? The original comment >that I was responding to claimed that no good movie was ever made >from a good book. I listed examples that, in my opinion, showed >otherwise. PLANET OF THE APES was a good novel. PLANET OF THE APES >was a good movie. Whether either is better than the other is >irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Please read what I have to >say before flaming. > As for CHARLY, I beg to differ. The film was not as good as >the *short story* "Flowers for Algernon", but I still think it's >better than the novel version. I read what you had to say; I understood the issue at hand. Comparison to the original was *not* irrelevant. If a film (or book) is *based* on a book (or film), then a comparison to the original form is inevitable -- otherwise, all you have is two separate entities sharing a common title, but little else. In that case, you can't say that a good book has been *made into* a good film; all you can say is, "That's a good film. There's also a good book with the same title." The issue at hand was good books that had (or, in the original poster's opinion, hadn't) been made into good films. PLANET OF THE APES was a schlock film because it deviated so drastically (and tragically) from the original, with absolutely no good excuse for doing so. It turned a perfectly good story into Hollywood-pulp. They did a convincing job on the makeup, and that's about it. As to CHARLY, it's just a matter of opinion, since they didn't deviate enough from the original to have that as a basis for criticism (but I still think that whole bit with the motorcycle gang was crap), but *I* happen to think that the book was better -- so there, nyah. Now I'll offer an example of a film that I think was better (although there are probably people who would say just as good and probably some that would say not as good) than the book: BEING THERE. Jerzy Kozinki's book bored me to tears, but the movie was really touching: simple, elegant, and beautifully done. You see, I'm not a "never has a film lived up to the book" fanatic. I simply disagreed with two of your examples. Diane Holt Interactive Systems Corp. ima!ism780!dianeh ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Dec 85 11:56 EST From: " Roz " Subject: Children believing what they see on TV From previous SF-LOVERS issue: >From: fluke!moriarty@caip.rutgers.edu (Jeff Meyer) >tom@utcsri.UUCP (Tom Nadas) writes: >>As a professional writer, I abhorcensorship. However, there is a >>great difference between censorship and maintaining some level of >>good taste, especially in a collaborative medium like television. >>True, Harlan was the writer in question, but producer De Guere, >>actor Asner, whoever they selected as director, and the >>programming mavens at CBS all would have had to live with the fact >>that the terrifying thought that Santa did not like black and >>hispanic children would have been put in some children's minds. >>Even if the resolution of the episode had proved otherwise, the >>mere asking of the question may have been inappropriate to ask in >>prime time. > Do you believe that kids believe every single thing that someone >says on TV? I don't think so -- they watch the story, see what >happens to (and with) the characters, and make judgements from >there; the story usually directs them in their conclusions, My observations are that *most* children up through age 5-6 believe everything they see on TV unless they are specifically told that something is not real. (That includes cartoons, news, movies, etc.) Even at age 7-8, *many* children have trouble relating what they have been told about one program to another similar (but different) program. (i.e. they have trouble drawing analogies.) There are exceptions to the ages (in both directions, of course!) because the extremely bright pick up on somethings faster than others, just as the slower children might not (or at least differently). But, of course you *knew* I would respond to your comment when you wrote it...right? Of course I believe parents should watch TV and talk to their children, which allows me to be more liberal in my censorship attitudes. But, *we* the public have allowed and/or encouraged the FCC, DOD, Government (what-ever-you-want-to-call-it) to takeover our parental (pet peeve number XXX!) responsibilities, instead of us (parents) saying no to our children! Roz ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Jan 86 1037-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #4 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 6 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 4 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Chalker & Foster & Title Requests Answered (2 msgs), Films - Books into Films & Title Request Answered (2 msgs), Television - Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Multi-volume Works ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RICK BLAKE (on Essex DEC-10) Date: Tuesday, 24-Dec-85 12:02:21-GMT Subject: Triple Detente I suppose it's time to put in my two pennyworth from the UK... Triple Detente was Anthony's ninth novel, after: Chthon Sos the Rope ) Recently reissued in one volume, the Var the Stick ) title of which eludes me, but which is Neta the Sword ) currently in UK bookshops Omnivore Orn Macroscope Prostho Plus And was published by Sphere in the UK, though is undoubtedly out of print by now. To quote from the flyleaf: (quote) First published in GB by Sphere Books Ltd 1975 Copyright Piers Anthony Jacob 1974 A portion of this book is derived from the novelette "The Alien Rulers" appearing in the March 1968 issue of Analog (endquote) My copy has ISBN 0 7221 1199 1 . I would be happy to provide a spoiler plot resume if anybody wants one. Rick Blake. ------------------------------ From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: Spirits of flux & anchor; Jack Chalker Date: 31 Dec 85 09:12:45 GMT oleg@birtch.UUCP (Oleg Kiselev) writes: >cjn@calmasd.UUCP (Cheryl Nemeth) writes: >>I just finished _Soul Rider_. I get the feeling that Chalker has >>one general idea and that's where most of his books come from. Indeed. He often uses his particular kinky sexual fetishes as "hooks" since it seems there must be a certain amount of eroticism in a story for it to mass-market well. However, the plotlines, without the kinks and the exploration of wierdness, are often quite interesting as an investigation of an alternative culture, even if they don't quite work. >And don't complain about a "less than satisfying" conclusion! >Chalker always treats the first 3 volumes of Soul Rider as ONE >book! YOu have NOT read the conclusion : it's in vol.3 - "Masters >of Flux and Anchor"! I rather disagree with this. Although Chalker always hopes for a trilogy, in this case the publishers made him stretch out a book that seems like it was a single long novel. This is an irritating trend, and it sure looks to me like it wrecked the crafting of this story. There are rough edges, the characters aren't consistent and lots of them seem to be introduced as "cardboard character type 4a" for a particular use, then discarded as soon as he's done with it. >And for explanations of how things started and how they work (what >is Flux?) -- read "The Birth of Flux and Anchor", book 4 of Soul >Rider (read it last in the series!). Definitely. The book stands by itself and is very enjoyable. In fact, if you would rather, just read it alone and ignore the other three, if you find that you can't stand the thought of yet another trilogy. Hutch ------------------------------ From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: VOYAGE TO THE CITY OF THE DEAD by Alan Dean Foster Date: 30 Dec 85 15:59:59 GMT The jacket reads: "Irritating Horseye! Many worlds of the Humanx Commonwealth boasted of "natural wonders", but Horseye was truly unique--the planet had the most spectacular river valley anywhere in the known universe and was home to three alien cultures. The fascinating planet just cried out for proper study, and after months of impatient quarantine Etienne and Lyra Redowl had finally received permission to begin a voyage of exploration to the source of the River Skar, a mere 12,000 kilometers Upriver. Old hands at cracking new planets, the Redowls studied the aliens, languages, took local guides, and provided for emergencies. But nothing could prepare them for the awesome treachery of the natives or the unbelievable natural obstacles. And not even the natives understood the planet's deepest secret..." For a change, the jacket summary is completely accurate! The Humanx Commonwealth is one which Mr. Foster has used in many other novels, but it isn't a major part of this book. The story mainly concerns the journey of the Redowls up the river, their xenological and geological research along the way, their dealings with guides from two of the planet's intelligent life forms, and their relationship with each other. The technology they employ is not especially far advanced-- their boat, hand weapons, etc. seem quite reasonable. I was very impressed by the way the main characters came across. Their marriage is wearing a bit thin, and they frequently employ sarcasm against each other, just like in real life! And yet there remains a core of caring and commitment. I enjoyed the book. It never got especially exciting, but it never got dull either. I give this one 3 stars (very good). Duane Morse ...!noao!terak|anasazi!duane or ...!noao!mot!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ From: RICK BLAKE (on Essex DEC-10) Date: Monday, 23-Dec-85 17:20:38-GMT Subject: The Night Land >[From Ray Racine @caip.rutgers.edu] >This is another I need to know about book which has haunted me for >a few years now. It's an old book which was reprinted in a series >of old time classics under Lynn Carter, who wrote the introduction. >The authors last name started with an H. ( Hamiltion ??) > >The book is almost morbid, taking place very far in the future. >The hero dreams his way there, I think. All of humanity has taken >refuge in a large pyramid of light and only a few hundred remain >with fewer almost daily. Outside of the pyramid is evil in various >incarnations. I distinctly remember one was "HE-WHO-WATCHES-IN THE >NORTH" in the shape of a huge crouching monstrosity which never >moved, yet constantly drew closer and closer. There are other >capitalized evils in the east, west, ect... as well as other >smaller evils which roamed freely. Absolutely everything was dark >in the book, no sun at all, the entire atmosphere was something >straight out of Edger Allen Poe. The book you're thinking of is 'The Night Land' by William Hope Hodgson. It was originally published in 1912, and reprinted as part of the series of classics by Ballantine in the early 70s. This series also included 'The Well at the World's End' by William Morris, and 'The King of Elfland's Daughter' by Lord Dunsany. The story is everything you say, particularly as to the impression of all- pervading evil and the whole taking place in Stygian darkness. The hero has a telepathic awareness of another outpost of humanity, so sets out from the pyramid to discover it; he believes himself to be close to his goal at the end of the first volume. I have yet to discover a copy of the second volume!! If anyone out there knows where I can obtain one, PLEASE PLEASE tell me! Rick Blake. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Dec 85 06:28 CST From: MSgt Robert L. Stevenson Subject: More Re: Pyramid Power Robert Firth believed the title of the book to be _Siva!_ by >>(Ithink)< 2001, by the way, is truly a special case. Not only is it a film > done at the same time as the novel, but I also nominate it as the > only SF film that was BETTER than the book was. Anyone else want > to add new nominations? [...] I would like to include the remake of "The Thing" in the list. Granted, "Who Goes There?" is a short story and not a novel, but I think the movie should be nominated as an excellent _change of medium and even better on screen_ example. The original movie, considered a classic, is atrocious in its treatment of the story it claims for basis. The remake, I thought, was excellent in transfering mediums. Sure I missed the thoughts of the characters in the short story, but I thought the remake stuck to the story very well, kept the detective work visible, and used some of the most vivid story scenes, thus partially redeeming Hollywoods ability to absoletly mutilate stories. I think "The Thing" shows what a wonderful job Hollywood can do if they really set their minds (and budgets) to it. I believe a lot of people don't like "The Thing" because 1) it is not pretty, 2) it is depressing, 3) leans toward horror, and 4) they've never read the story. Celeste Wood ARPA: nermal%wood.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Thu 2 Jan 86 21:42:20-EST From: "Jim McGrath" Subject: Query: Silent Running >From: ugjohna%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY (John Arrasjid) >The earth is overpopulated and there is no more plant life, so huge >space greenhouses are built that grow plants and small animal life >for food, and produce oxygen to bring back to earth. There are >little robots that work on the station in addition to a small human >crew. In the end, one of the crew decides to commit suicide by >blowing up all the pods of the green house. > >... I think the name was began with the word "Silent". The film is "Silent Running." However, I do not believe that the plants and animals were kept in the pods (greenhouses in space) to supply food and oxygen for the earth. Rather, they were a form of "life bank," preserving plants and animals that no longer were allowed on earth. Also, then ending was not prompted by a desire for suicide, but rather rebellion. The authorities were going to decommission (destroy) the pods (probably so that they could use the spacecraft for better things), and one crewman rebels in order to "save the wilderness." The film is noted for its "environmentalist" attitude, music by Joan Baez, and special effects by Doug Trumbull (sp?). Jim ------------------------------ Date: Thu 2 Jan 86 11:18:40-PST From: Lynn Gold Subject: The name of that pre-1975 movie with huge space greenhouses It is "Silent Running," and was made in 1971. This was Douglas Trumbull's ("2001" and "Close Encounters" special effects) directorial debut. The screenplay was written by Deric Washburn, Michael Cimino and Steven Bochco; the movie starred Bruce Dern, Cliff Potts, Ron Rifkin, and Jesse Vint. The score for the movie was written by Peter Schickele of PDQ Bach fame. Lynn [Moderator's Notes: Thanks also to the following people who contributed similar information: Brian Utterback ({cca!ima,ihnp4}!inmet!ada-uts!brianu) dave (butenhof%clt.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM) Kevin LaRue (kevin%bizet.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM) Dave Godwin Frederick M. Avolio (decuac!avolio@caip.rutgers.edu) Jim White (JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU) ] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 85 09:30 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Star Trek Videocassettes To: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU Actually, Paramount has, to date, released 28 tapes of episodes, one of which was the two part episode "Menagerie." That's 26 first season, 2 second season. The third set included: 20 "The Alternative Factor" 23 "A Taste of Armageddon" 24 "Space Seed" 25 "This Side of Paradise" 26 "Devil in the Dark" 27 "Errand of Mercy" 28 "City on the Edge of Forever" 29 "Operation: Annihilate!" 33 "Who Mourns for Adonais?" 34 "Amok Time" Note that 21, "Tomorrow is Yesterday" and 22, "Return of the Archons" both first season episodes, have not yet been released. In case you don't have a complete list of episodes, numbers and seasons, they are: First Season: 41 I, Mudd 01 Cage 42 Trouble with Tribbles 02 Where No Man Has Gone Before 43 Bread and Circuses 03 Corbomite Manuever 44 Journey to Babel 04 Mudd's Women 45 A Private Little War 05 Enemy Within 46 Gamesters of Triskelion 06 Man Trap 47 Obsession 07 Naked Time 48 Immunity Syndrome 08 Charlie X 49 Piece of the Action 09 Balence of Terror 50 By Any Other Name 10 What Are Little Girls Made Of? 51 Return to Tomorrow 11 Dagger of the Mind 52 Patterns of Force 12 Miri 53 Ultimate Computer 13 Conscience of the King 54 Omega Glory 14 Galileo 7 55 Assignment: Earth 15 Courtmarial Third Season: 16 Menagerie 56 Spectre of the Gun 17 Shore Leave 57 Elaan of Troyius 18 Squire of Gothos 58 Paradise Syndrome 19 Arena 59 Enterprise Incident 20 Alternative Factor 60 And the Children Shall Lead 21 Tomorrow is Yesterday 61 Spock's Brain 22 Return of the Archons 62 Is There in Truth No Beauty? 23 Taste of Armageddon 63 Empath 24 Space Seed 64 Tholian Web 25 This Side of Paradise 65 For the World is Hollow... 26 Devil in the Dark 66 Day of the Dove 27 Errand of Mercy 67 Plato's Stepchildren 28 City on the Edge of Forever 68 Wink of an Eye 29 Operation: Annihilate! 69 That Which Survives Second Season: 70 Let That Be Your Last Battlefield 30 Catspaw 71 Whom Gods Destroy 31 Metamorphosis 72 Mark of Gideon 32 Friday's Child 73 Lights of Zetar 33 Who Morns for Adonais? 74 Cloudminders 34 Amok Time 75 Way to Eden 35 Doomsday Machine 76 Requiem for Methuselah 36 Wolf in the Fold 77 Savage Curtain 37 Changeling 78 All Our Yesterdays 38 Apple 79 Turnabout Intruder 39 Mirror, Mirror 40 Deadly Years Lisa ------------------------------ From: lsuc!msb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Brader) Subject: Re: trilogies and other multi-volume works Date: 31 Dec 85 21:24:27 GMT > Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary defines 'trilogy' as > follows: > a series of three dramas or sometimes three literary or > musical compositions that although each is in one sense > complete are closely related and develop a single theme > By this definition, neither THE LORD OF THE RINGS nor THE BOOK OF > THE NEW SUN is a trilogy or tetralogy. Rather, these are single > stories published in multiple volumes. ... And, of course, the so-called FOUNDATION trilogy also was not one. It was a series of NINE closely related stories that happened to fill three volumes of the size then considered convenient. (The first one was written especially for the book publication, and the others had appeared in order in Astounding or Analog, whatever it was then called.) Mark Brader ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Jan 86 1057-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #5 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 6 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 5 Today's Topics: Books - Feist & McCaffrey & Robinson & Zelazny & A Request, Films - Lensman (2 msgs) & Young Sherlock Holmes & Enemy Mine, Television - The Prisoner, Miscellaneous - Sexual Slant in Books (3 msgs) & Multi-Volume works ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek) Subject: MAGICIAN, by Raymond E. Feist---and sequels? Date: 3 Jan 86 02:02:12 GMT Recently I bought a paperback entitled `Magician: Apprentice'. It turns out that this is Book I of II concerning one Pug, Magician's Apprentice, his companions, and the events during his rather unusual apprenticeship. Both books are part of a larger tale, `The Riftwar Saga', comprising also the stories `Silverthorn' and `A Darkness at Sethanon'. I have since discovered that Doubleday had printed as a single edition books I and II of Magician in hardback in 1982, and in trade paperback in 1984---fortunately, as Book II, `Magician: Master', is not yet available in its Bantam Spectra mass market edition; and I dislike leaving a tale unfinished. Well, this brings me to a question: In the back of the trade paperback edition, I find the words `Watch for Silverthorn, the sequel to Magician, coming soon from Doubleday'; and in the front cover of the paperback edition, dates are listed for neither Silverthorn nor A Darkness at Sethanon. I would like to know whether these are in print and by whom: Publishers do not always print books that are `coming soon'. For the tale itself has thus far been very enjoyable. I have reached only as far as the end of Book I, but on the strength of this much alone I already seek the full Saga. If you know more of the availability of the other stories, send me *mail* (unless you are jayembee and wish to inform the world). I offer my thanks in advance. As to the story itself I will say little. I do not wish to generate spoilers, and I have not read enough for a review. But I will say this: A more accurate depiction of Elves you are unlikely to find in print anywhere: Tolkien rather glorified us; and his information was largely historical. Almost I might suspect that Mr. Feist knows more of us than we might wish. But I am getting off the subject. Read the book. It is well worth it. Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ From: gladys!dalton@caip.rutgers.edu (David Dalton) Subject: Re: KILLASHANDRA by Anne McCaffrey Date: 2 Jan 86 10:03:55 GMT > Anne McCaffrey is "the lady with the dragon books", none of which > I have ever read, because I'm not really into cute fantasies. Anne McCaffrey's dragon books are much more than "cute fantasies." She creates rich, fascinating worlds. And her characters -- including her dragons -- are full of life and full of tension. I'm glad to hear that there's a sequel to CRYSTAL SINGER. I enjoyed it too. David Dalton [ihnp4!burl!gladys!dalton] ------------------------------ Subject: Spider Robinson and Antinomy Date: 03 Jan 86 16:09:47 PST (Fri) From: Dave Godwin While it is true that Antinomy is now a rare book ( the publishing house folded while the first edition was being printed ), the book itself is not of great value. This is due mainly to that fact that it is a paperback, and also due to the fact that the stories in it are now being printed elsewhere. If you are a completist like myself, the book retains a certain senti- mental value. The other Robinson first edition that is hard to find now is paperback Time Travelers Strictly Cash. The first edition has a typo in the title page. There you will find written 'Tiime Travelers ...'. If you can track Spider down long enough to have him autograph it, he'll sign it 'Spiider Robiinson'. Another one edition paperback short story collection you will never see outside the hands of a lucky few is Niven's 'Shape of Space'. It had one printing in 1969, and ain't been seen since. All of the stories therein can now be found spread among the pages of 'Tales of Known Space', and in 'Convergent Series', so it's not as if the stories are lost. But, again, it is nice to have a copy just for kicks. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 2 Jan 1986 09:30:45-PST From: butenhof%clt.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (I've been meaning to put that From: off for weeks now!) Subject: DREAM MASTER I've read both the novel and novella versions, and I have to agree the ending's a bit ambiguous... **standard spoiler warning if you haven't read the story** I suspect you're right in that the Knight dream at the end signalled Render's own therapy. The novella gave a much stronger suggestion than the novel that he was *not* going to recover, but was far from specific. As for why Eileen did what she did to him, that's easy. It's what Render had been warned of all along. She was strong-willed, and he was attacking a very basic element of her psyche. She couldn't control the tendancy to take over, under stress. She had already freaked out briefly, several times, during the early stages. Render had convinced himself they were now "safe", however, and let down his guard. That, combined with the much more extreme nature of her shock, in the final grand-and-glorious transition to the real world, was too much. She went over the edge and he, caught up in the therapy, went with her. Dave Butenhof ZKO2-3/K06 Digital Equipment Corp. 110 Spitbrook Road Nashua NH 03062 clt::butenhof butenhof%clt.DEC@decwrl.ARPA {allegra,shasta,decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-clt!butenhof ------------------------------ Date: 23 Dec 85 06:28 CST From: MSgt Robert L. Stevenson Subject: A Title Request I would like to knopw if anyone out there knows the other two titles of a trilogy in which one of the title is _A Dark Star Passes_. It concerns a group of young scientists (one of the names is Morrey (sp)) their inventions and inter-galactic exploits. I am afraid I don't remember the author either. Any help would be appreciated. Robert L. "Steve" Stevenson DOET@AFCC-2 ------------------------------ From: mordor!jtk@caip.rutgers.edu (Jordan Kare) Subject: Re: Lensman in Video Date: 3 Jan 86 06:59:46 GMT > Does anyone know if some movie producer plans to translate the >Lensman series (by Doc Smith) into a series of motion pictures? Or >if Marvel or DC plan to render it in comic form? I think it may be >a nice thing to see. > >Andrew Jonathan Fine There is a Japanese animated film called "Lensman", which is obviously based on the Lensman books because all of the names are the same: Kimball Kinnison is the hero, the evil leader is Boskone, etc. The Lens is a wrist-worn jewel with telepathic powers. Even the place names are used. However, the plot has nothing whatsoever to do with that of the books, and with some exceptions (Worsel IS a flying dragon) the characters, places, etc. bear little resemblance to their namesakes. Good Japanese animation (by my modest standards :-)), worth seeing for amusement, but NOT a translation of the books. ------------------------------ From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: Lensman in Video Date: 3 Jan 86 21:49:29 GMT There is a series of plastic model kits from Japan based on Lensman characters and situations. I believe (but have no real evidence) that these come from a Japanese animation of at least some of the Lensman stories. I think the original stories were sufficiently cartoonish that this might work pretty well... Mike Farren uucp: {dual, hplabs}!well!farren Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667 USnail: 390 Alcatraz Ave., Oakland, CA 94618 ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jan 1986 15:35:44 PST Subject: glass man in YSH From: John Platt >From: Craig W. Reynolds >It went by before I could look closely, but I belive that at least >in one of the scenes, there is simulation of depth-of-focus. The >glass man is holding his sword toward the "camera" and it can be >seen to be sharp at the tip, but appropriately fuzzy back at the >hilt end. Yow! You're right: they did simulate the depth of field of the camera lens so that the computer graphics would melt right in --- they used distributed ray tracing (It also should have motion-blurred the image, but it's hard to tell) john platt platt@cit-20 cithep!cit-vax!platt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 86 12:23:19 est From: Carol Morrison Subject: Addendum to Enemy Mine Review After reading Mark Leeper's review, I thought I'd better add that we missed the beginning of the movie, when the ships crashed, so I couldn't say whether or not that was the worst special effect. Also, who had the stuffed tail(s)? ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 3 Jan 1986 15:23:49-PST From: mccutchen%erie.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (R. Terry McCutchen 289-6808) Subject: The prisoner (and No. 6) Sorry to put this in VERY LATE. This show was made as the "Fifth" man of the Philby/Maclean/Burgress ... spy ring (Real World British Intelligence) was being "found". I have frequently believed that Number "6" refered to a mythical "sixth" man. Terry McCutchen ------------------------------ From: birtch!oleg@caip.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev) Subject: Re: Should book ads disclose sexual slant? Date: 30 Dec 85 21:19:40 GMT hsf@hlexa.UUCP (Henry Friedman) writes: >1) Should ads for novels at least suggest whether the sex/romance > is predominantly straight or gay? (I don't think this would be > necessary if the main themes are not romantic, such as novels > about social/political oppression.) Only if you are a prude or a homofobe. Sex is sex, romance is romance; if you enjoy reading about "straight" sex without feeling "naughty" or guilty you you should be able to enjoy a love story about two(?) individuals regardless of their sex. What DOES irk me is sex between alien species.... >2) Should it make any difference? In other words, should it have > mattered to me? I don't see why... Sex is sex.... >3) Was it my fault for not remembering or knowing that Delany's > sf writing has a gay slant? Only if you object to homosexuality getting "equal time". >4) Do I have a point in objecting to the way the book club advertised > the book? No. It's like objecting to not mentioning any demonic, satanic, pagan, magical subject matter. It sonds like PMRC's record labeling system. And we all know how silly that is ;-) >5) Was the book such a work of creative genious that it transcended > such considerations? Don't know, have not read it (yet?). Oleg Kiselev. ...!{trwrb|scgvaxd}!felix!birtch!oleg ...!{ihnp4|randvax}!ucla-cs!uclapic!oac6!oleg ------------------------------ From: gladys!dalton@caip.rutgers.edu (David Dalton) Subject: Re: Sexual Slant in Novels - "Stars in My Pocket..." Date: 31 Dec 85 11:23:51 GMT > Recently I bought an sf novel from the Quality Paperback Book > Club, Samuel R. Delany's "Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand." > The book club's blurb had read something like: "drama of life, > death and sexuality in the distant future." The problem I have > with this is that the ad didn't disclose that the "sexuality" was > predominantly gay sexuality. Despite some features of interest, I > stopped reading the book about half way through, when it became > evident that just about all the romance and sex was to be gay. I too bought this book from Quality Paperback Book Club after I read the blurb. I knew something about Delaney, but there's another clue. If the blurb were referring to straight sex, it would say "life, death and sex." Straight sex is sex, I guess, and gay sex is sexuality. Now that I've been flippant, I also have a more serious point: Why do you read? Especially, why do you read speculative fiction? As someone else mentioned, the point of sex in fiction is not sexual stimulation of the reader, except in pornography. If a character in fiction is a whole character, then the character probably has a sexuality. If our reading is diverse, and if our writers are diverse, then surely we will find diverse sexualties. It seems odd to me that a reader of science fiction would accept aliens of every stripe and color and yet balk at a gay human. "Warning: Some characters are gay" is every bit as silly as "Warning: Some characters are green." I was acutely bored by "Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand" and put it down after about 100 pages. Other science fiction/fantasy writers have done better with gay characters, particularly Elizabeth Lynn. Gay characters are amazingly prevalent in science fiction/fantasy. I recommend for those interested a book by Eric Garber and Lyn Paleo, "Uranian Worlds: A Reader's Guide to Alternative Sexuality in Science Fiction and Fantasy," G.K. Hall & Co., Boston. ------------------------------ From: hpda!on@caip.rutgers.edu (Owen Rowley) Subject: Re: Sexual Slant in Novels - "Stars in My Pocket..." Date: 2 Jan 86 18:59:25 GMT >rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) writes: >Disclosing sexual bias in a book? Advertising its sexuality? Hey, >what is this? It sounds like some looney project from Andrea >Dworkin or some other political crazy. Apply any of these >recommendations to books "slanted" to heterosexuality (god >forbid!); the result would be clearly perceived as off the wall, >AND obnoxious by more than a few readers. I am glad that someone finally has pegged this argument for what it really is. Homophobia is so common in our existence that it can often pass as honest inquirey. >I find the allusion to a kind of "truth in advertising" idea >applied 1) to sexual matters; and 2) to what is though of as a >minority orientation, really offensive. And it smacks of >puritanism. Some people buy books for the purpose of expanding their store of knowledge and their realm of experience. Science Fiction in particular is supposed to stretch our imaginative abilities. Would we consider it a prejudice if this gentlemen had said these characters are all chinese or all black, I don't want to read about them!? You bet we would. Owen Rowley hpda!on ------------------------------ From: cbuxc!dim@caip.rutgers.edu (Dennis McKiernan) Subject: Trilogies: Not necessarily the author's choice. Date: 2 Jan 86 19:53:53 GMT There's been some discussion on the net lately concerning the value of trilogies, ranging from "Gak! Another trilogy!" to "Hot dog! Another trilogy!" Just to throw another factor in: The author of a tale doesn't necessarily say, "Hmmm. I think I'll write a(nother) trilogy." Quite often it is the editor or the publisher who decides, and either contracts the writer to produce a trilogy, or takes an existing submitted manuscript and splits it into thirds (or halves, or quarters, etc.) because the tale is a loooong story and for business reasons splits it into three inexpensive books rather than one costly book. This is done in spite of (or because of) the fact that the three books total price will exceed the price of the costly book. For example, my _The Iron Tower_ would have cost about $20 had it been published as a single hardback, but as a trilogy, at $11.95 per book, it costs a total of $35.85. In paperback, it costs $8.85 ($2.95 per book) compared to about $6.00 had it come out as a single. So, in my case, because the editor chose to split a 250,000 word manuscript into thirds, my single story was published as a trilogy. Frankly, even though I'll make more royalty bucks with a trilogy, I'd rather it had come out as a single book (as was done in the German translation). In the case of my second manuscript (180,000 words, _The Silver Call_), my editor has split it in two... Hence, it is a duology. Again, my choice would have been to put it out as a single book. Sigh. Dennis L. McKiernan ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Jan 86 0856-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #6 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 7 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 6 Today's Topics: Books - Brust (2 msgs) & Russell, Miscellaneous - Waves in SF & The Titanic & Sex in Books (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Jan 1986 13:21 EST (Fri) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Brokedown Palace Well, it seems pretty obvious that BP is in the same world as Jhereg/Yendi, consider: in BP, Faerie is to the west, and is always covered by clouds. So is Dragaera. In fact, while I didn't think about it until I read BP, the Empire does fit the classic description of Faerie: Always twilight, the "people" are immortal (by Human standards), amoral, tall, slender, have pointed ears, and no facial hair. In other words, the first two books give a nice description of "Faerie" from the inside, Brokedown Palace gives the description from the outside. We finally get to see just how the "Easterners" perceive Drageara. ------------------------------ From: ittvax.ATC.ITT!dann@caip.rutgers.edu (Dan Neiman) Subject: Re: "Brokedown Palace" by Steven Brust Date: 3 Jan 86 20:04:38 GMT Mark Ellingham writes : > I just picked up a copy of Steven Brust's latest novel, > "Brokedown Palace." It's published by Ace. The printing date > inside says January 1986. I haven't had a chance to read it yet, > but here's what the blurb on the back says: > > .... Just thought I'd let all the SKZB fans out there know. > This sounds like it might be a lot of fun to read. ******* (Spoilers ahead!...) ********* Well, I thought it might be fun to read too. Basically, I was wrong. It's hard to pin down exactly what's wrong with "Brokedown Palace". Style: The first chapter or so of BP seems to be an attempt to emulate the style of a Zelazny novel. Nothing wrong with that, except that it doesn't really work. Most of the novel is written in the rather simplistic style of a Grimms Fairy tale. To heighten the effect, there are various interludes describing the folklore of Brust's mythical kingdom. Most of the interludes are entertaining enough but irrelevant to the main story. Characters: The biggest flaws seem to be the characters. They seem to sort of drift around for most of the book. The reactions of all the characters to almost any event is to sit around and discuss it. Motivations for most of the events are pretty slight. ("You really think I should kill the Goddess, Bolk? OK, might as well...). The hero, Miklos, starts off the book in fairly bad shape, having been beaten nearly to death by his brother, Laszlo, King of Falerria (sp?), for a minor provocation. Miraculously healed and befriended by a talking horse, Miklos drifts off to the land of Faery for a couple of years for no better reason than that he has nowhere else to go. He's not pissed at his brother, he's not out to usurp the kingdom, he's basically sort of a lump. Two years later, Miklos returns. Now he's got the Power, but he's still a nebbish. Does he do anything with the Power? No, not really. The character Laszlo is particularly inconsistent. He's willing to kill a brother for criticizing the state of repair of a bedroom, but shrugs off the treason of his captain of the guards because he's a good officer. Plot: Well, what there is of it concerns the decay of the ancestral palace and the attempts by Miklos to do something about it. (Purposely left vague for those who haven't read the book yet.) There isn't a lot here to get excited about as the reader doesn't really care a lot about the royal palace of Falaria. Still, there are good things about the plot. Most significantly, there's no evil wizard or Sauron-type baddie who has to be offed in the last chapter. On current fantasy, this is a sizeable recommendation. Cover/Blurb: Probably the most significant reason why I didn't care for BP is that the blurbs on the backcover led me to expect something substantially more lighthearted. Recommendation: Brokedown Palace is *really* light reading without a really satisfying conclusion. On the Leeper scale, probably a 0 out of 4. dann ------------------------------ From: 3comvax!michaelm@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael McNeil) Subject: Re: story request Date: 3 Jan 86 03:18:28 GMT >From: Stephen Balzac >Well, I don't remember anything about a story involving "obs", but >the other sounds like a story by Poul Anderson. I don't remember >the title, but it can be found in a collection of his stories >called, "7 Conquests." The article that the above is a reply to has unfortunately scrolled off our system, so I'm not sure what was actually requested, but a story involving "obs" was the novel *The Great Explosion* by Eric Frank Russell. A resurgent Earth is attempting to bring back into the fold hundreds of colony worlds which had been settled during a great dispersal of cultures and peoples to the stars centuries before (hence the title of the book). The story relates the adventures of a spaceship dispatched by Earth to visit four of these lost colonies. One of the worlds/cultures visited was feudal, I don't recall what the second culture was like, while a third was inhabited by nudists. The fourth world, however, was inhabited by the cultural descendants of Mahatma Gandhi, who during the Great Explosion had established an anarchistic society based on nonviolence and civil disobedience. The people, who as I recall called themselves "Gands," didn't use money as such, substituting instead a socially enforced system of personal obligations (or "obs"). A person acquired obs by accepting goods and services, which were "free," but which one must eventually repay in order to continue as a member in good standing of society. If a person didn't repay his obs, people eventually stopped feeding, assisting, or cooperating in any way, leaving exile the only option. When the empire-builders from Earth arrived and inevitably collided with this society, the results were "interesting," to say the least. Another, fascinating look at a functional anarchistic society is, of course, Ursula K. LeGuin's wonderful novel *The Dispossessed*. Michael McNeil 3Com Corporation (415) 960-9367 ..!ucbvax!hplabs!oliveb!3comvax!michaelm ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Waves in science fiction. Date: 2 Jan 86 22:57:36 GMT ins_amap@jhunix.UUCP (Mark Aden Poling) writes: >... The New Wave seems in respect to have been an attempt to bring >human values and attitudes into what had previously been very >Machine oriented fiction. This of course meant that surrealism was >prevalent in much of the "serious" SF published then. ??? Surrealism was an art movement of the early 20th century that attempted to free the workings of the so-called subconscious. Art (whether painting, sculpture, literature, etc.) that is surrealistic is characteristically dreamlike and presents objects and events out of context; it attempts (as I understand it) to unlock or touch the subconscious by destroying the normal chain of associations that we have when we look at something. Thus the famous painting (was it by Man Ray?) of the pipe (smoking) labelled "ce n'est pas une pipe" (i.e., "this is not a pipe"). I hardly see what surrealism has to do with the New Wave's attempt to bring human values and attitudes into 'hard' SF. Certainly some New Wave authors occasionally used techniques that had a surrealistic flavor (a lot of J. G. Ballard's work has this flavor, to my way of thinking) but the movement was not primarily a surrealistic movement IN INTENT. >... (By the way, the story I sent to F&SF nine weeks ago, "Dream", >is *still* in limbo! Way back in my days as a would-be writer, I recall waiting much longer than nine weeks to have some pieces returned to me. F&SF probably has a BIG backlog of stories to wade through. I'd usually wait three months before following up on a submission, and then I'd send a friendly "oh by the way" type note. >... What I'm wondering is this; do people, as in humans, change >over time? If so, what is the nature of the change? Is it merely >fashion? Or is it, as I implied in my story, a function of the >evolution/devolution of man's collective unconscience? .... Now, >the question from a weird point of view; since these stories were >handled so well from the 'fifties, and the authors probably didn't >give a damn if they were making some kind of statement, *is it >proof that people don't change*? Are these altered states constant >in our species, and our awareness of them fluctuating? Sure people change. Check out a book published last year (I think) by a historian called "The Great Cat Massacre." It's about the medieval world-view and makes fascinating reading. Or check out a book called "Turing's Man," by Stephen Bolton, which discusses changing metaphors for life, the universe, and everything (the ancient Greeks had the spindle, renaissance Europeans had the clock mechanism, we today have the computer as a central metaphor, he claims). We change our world views as our knowledge of ourselves and the universe changes. As to evolution of a "collective unconscious," show me one. Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ From: cvl!kayuucee@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) Subject: Time Travel and the Titanic Date: 4 Jan 86 03:03:20 GMT Being a great fan of both time travel and the mystery surrounding the TITANIC, I have a request. Please e-mail me the title of any book, tv show, movie or anything else that deals with time travellers appearing on the TITANIC. Please accompany book titles with author(s) name(s). Those stories I don't need to information about are: Television: The Time Tunnel Episode One The Time Tunnel Final Episode (whatever number it was) Movies: Time Bandits These stories can only have one paragraph or five minutes of film about this, but I want to know about it. Anyone who can help me, I would really appreciate it you would take the time to mail me a message. Thank you. Kenneth Crist seismo!cvl!kayuucee ------------------------------ From: warwick!sar@caip.rutgers.edu (Simon Ritchie) Subject: Re: Sexual orientation in book ads Date: 3 Jan 86 01:52:58 GMT >hsf@hlexa.UUCP (Henry Friedman) writes: >1) Should ads for novels at least suggest whether the sex/romance > is predominantly straight or gay? (I don't think this would be > necessary if the main themes are not romantic, such as novels > about social/political oppression.) > >2) Should it make any difference? In other words, should it have > mattered to me? > >3) Was it my fault for not remembering or knowing that Delany's > sf writing has a gay slant? >4) Do I have a point in objecting to the way the book club > advertised the book? >5) Was the book such a work of creative genious that it transcended > such considerations? This is actually Jill Rose, of Quartet/Women's Press (London), using Simon's user code to follow up: At our last sales conference, the Women's Press sales reps came to the conclusion that mention of gay sexuality at the start of an ad/blurb is a disincentive to some buyers, but mention half-way is ok, because the prejudiced reader is interested by then, and the open-minded reader was never a problem. The gay reader will seek out books concerning gay sexuality (we hope). This attitude may seem mercenary, but wider sales allow us to publish more books for lesbians. These opinions are my own, and not necessarily those of my employer or any other person. ------------------------------ From: peterson@istari.DEC (Bob Peterson) Subject: Re: Should book ads disclose sexual slant? Date: 3 Jan 86 16:59:26 GMT Gee, all the replies I've see seem unanimous on pretty much all points. But how has this affected Mr. Friedman, the person with the original questions? Would he care to indicate his reaction to the feedback? Is he gonna write the book club? Ever read another book with gay characters? I presume Delany's latest will be shelved and ressurrected only during moments of extreme insomnia. It's been controversial enough I'll have to buy/borrow a copy to find out for myself. bob usenet: decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-vaxwrk!peterson arpa: peterson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ From: apollo!johnf@caip.rutgers.edu (John Francis) Subject: Sex in books Date: 3 Jan 86 21:38:38 GMT What with all this raving on the net about gay sex in books (and also a discussion of Jack Chalkers Flux and Anchor series), I thought I would throw in my two cents worth. First - I feel that merely by mentioning that the book dealt with sexuality the cover was being a LOT more honest than the vast majority of books! Too often now I find my enjoyment of a SF book being spoiled by the gratuitous introduction of sex scenes which do not add anything to the development of the storyline. This is one of the reasons why I have stopped reading books by Heinlein - I do not really enjoy reading about other peoples sexual hang- ups about their mothers, or descriptions of gang-bangs. I find Jack Chalker's books even worse - there is a strong element of sado-masochism in his works, especially in the way he deals with female characters. The Flux and Anchor series was the first series I ever failed to complete (I stopped after buying book 2), although this unique accolade may soon be lost - I do not think that I shall buy the 5th volume of Piers Antony's "Bio of a Space Tyrant". (FLAME ON) Too often now sex scenes are defended with the argument "It helps you to get a better picture of the personalities of the people involved". Not only is this a cop-out, it is also untrue! Very few authors are capable of dealing with an inter-personal relationship this complex without letting their own particular prejudices show through, and those that are good enough can give you a perfect understanding of their characters in other ways! And before you cry "Sexual relationships don't HAVE to be complex" - if the relationship is not complex then it does not add very much to your understanding of the character apart from letting you know that he/she/whatever has a casual attitude to sex, in which case you do not need a blow-by-blow description :-). (FLAME OFF ?) I hope this does not give the impression that I feel sex should never enter into a story line - I know of several SF books where sex is in one way or another an integral part of the story, and I am SURE I will be told about several others! It is just that nowadays it seems to be almost obligatory to have some sexual content to a story in even the most irrelevant context (just as seems to be true in Hollywood). If the sex is relevant it should not cause any offence wheter it be gay, straight, or any other variations. (FINAL FLAME) Still, what can you expect from a society that glorifies violence on the mass media with series like "The A-Team", but is not even prepared to admit that women have breasts (unless you watch PBS, when you get the occasional glimpse on series from the BBC)? Sexual repression is stupid - the human race would not exist without sex, whereas I have an idealistic opinion that it would be quite possible to exist in a society without violence if only one could find such a society! The sex drive is too strong to ignore, and trying to smother it will only cause an increased appetite for titillation. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Jan 86 0917-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #7 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 7 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 7 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Delany (3 msgs), Films - Android (3 msgs) & Lensman (2 msgs), Radio - The Hobbit, Miscellaneous - Trilogies (2 msgs) & New Waves ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: unirot!grr@caip.rutgers.edu (George Robbins) Subject: Re: "Brokedown Palace" by Steven Brust Date: 4 Jan 86 21:34:11 GMT This seems to be one of those books nobody will agree about. I really enjoyed reading it, and found the stylistic conventions rather charming. Sure SZKB is exploring some of territories/style/modalities of previous authors, but the general direction seems to be one of growth. I recommend anyone interested should read a chapter or two of one of his books and take their options from there... George Robbins uucp: ...!ihnp4!tapa!grr ...!caip!unirot!grr P.O. Box 177 Lincoln U, PA 19352 ------------------------------ From: sun!blueskye@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Ryan) Subject: Samuel Delany and Stars in My Pockets Like Grains of Sand Date: 4 Jan 86 21:45:07 GMT What with all this chit-chat about Samuel Delany's _Stars in my Pocket like Grains of Sand_ (SIMPLGOS), I'd like to offer my own opinion on the book and some of the questions raised in this discussion. I have read SIMPLGOS, as well as almost everything else written by Sam Delany. It is my observation that most of Delany's works are studies on a particular theme. For example, "Time considered as a helix of semi-precious stones" is a study of crime in a homogeneous and fairly controlled society. _Dhalgren_ is a study of dreams, and living in an urban ghetto. "The Star Pit" is a study about the ecology that we all live in; it is a story about enclosure and limits and how we each respond to our limits. _Tides of Lust_ is a no hol[ed]s barred study of sexuality and mythos. Similarly, SIMPLGOS has a theme; several, I think. That the two main characters in SIMPLGOS have "gay" sex is almost beside the point. I see SIMPLGOS as a study of gender and the family. Delany is very good--for about the first 100 or so pages, it seems that most characters (except the protagonist, Rat Korga) are referred to as "she." Except sometimes they also get referred to as "he." I admit I was thoroughly confused as to the characters' genders, and I was delighted that Delany had so confused me. And then he drops the explanation into our laps like a 100 Watt bulb turned on in the middle of the night--people are referred to as "she" until they become the objects of sex, during which they are referred to as "he." All at once, Delany turns our own world upside down, and gives men a sort of come-uppance. Brilliant. As for the dealings with "the family," the background conflict that comes to the forefront as the book progresses, is that between the Dyeth (pronounced like "death" [sneaky, huh?]) and the Thant families. The Dyeth's are members of a stream, a loose association of affectional entities, who, in their case, are not all of the same species. The Thants are members of a group that seems to be much more like the "nuclear family," with roles assigned according to age and physical gender. Delany contrasts these two ideas nicely, and I sense that the next book in his diptych will explore this "family feud" much more. He also hints that this difference in style has more that personal ramifications--it appears to have mass political and psychological impacts. That, too, will be intersting to follow. I think that Delany is one of the best contemporary SF authors. I like his style. He is not afraid to write about the tough issues of our time, like race, gender, the family, the poor, the disenfranchised, and sexuality. His characters are very human and far from perfect. All radical concepts for SF. Only one other contemporary writer compares--Ursual K. LeGuin. As to the questions raised by the original poster, they all strike me as provocative. Others have given the Politically Correct answers, so I won't reiterate. I did want to contribute to this discussion, however, since I seem to be one of the few interested parties who has actually finished the book. I would recommend this book to any and all readers as a worthwhile venture. It is full of surprises (like dragon "hunting") and thought provoking. I can't wait for the second book! tim ryan {...ucbvax, nsc, ihnp4, hplabs, pyramid}!sun!blueskye ------------------------------ From: harvard!dyer@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Dyer) Subject: Re: Should book ads disclose sexual slant? Date: 5 Jan 86 01:13:01 GMT I've just finished the first major section of the book, and perhaps things might be different later on, but all of the sex so far in this book, homosex or otherwise, has about as much to do with gay or straight 20th century Earth culture as moon rocks do. Delany uses sex just like any other characteristic as a means to "alienate" the readers from the characters and the worlds they inhabit. Whether it's the fact that all the people wear little lozenges over their face or that all the straights want to get flogged or the fact that our hero likes others of the same sex, it's all just an example of his maddening arbitrariness. But to call this a "gay" novel is ridiculous--as ridiculous as making an issue of the protagonist's predilections to begin with. Steve Dyer dyer@harvard.harvard.edu harvard!dyer ------------------------------ From: stcvax!dlb@caip.rutgers.edu (David Black) Subject: Re: Should book ads disclose sexual slant? Date: 2 Jan 86 16:15:10 GMT I'm a little surprised about the complaint about the sexual content of the Delany novel. I read the book a couple of weeks ago so the general impression that it gave is still fresh in my mind. Sexual desire is an important part of the book but sex acts themselves are not, so unless the original poster's objection is to the very idea or mention of homosexuality, I don't understand what the complaint is. I understand that the original posting was about the general idea of labeling but I don't understand how this particular book provoked it. Are there others who have read the book and can comment on their reactions to the sexual action vs. the sexual orientation? ------------------------------ From: voder!kevin@caip.rutgers.edu (The Last Bugfighter) Subject: Questions about movie credits for ANDROID Date: 4 Jan 86 01:20:20 GMT This may have been discussed on the net before but why isn't the lead character in the movie 'Android', the one who plays the android, given credit? At the end of the opening credits it simply says: And Introducing Max 404 Then second from the top of the closing credits (right after Klaus Kinski) it says; Max 404.......Himself What's realy strange is that further down the credits where they're taking care of the special effects people it says: Max 404 Software.................Sean Foley Max 404 Maintenance..............Ornette Caruso The final weirdosity is that at the end when they show the universal disclaimer it states: Special thanks to the unamed individuals who contributed to the fabrication and operation of Max 404, whithout whom this film would not have been possible. What gives? The woman who plays the female android is given credit, and assuming this film was made in America (can't tell from the credits) all the actors would have to be members of the Screen Actors Guild and union rules would DEMAND that the actor be given credit. Desperately in need of information... Kevin Thompson {ucbvax,ihnp4!nsc}!voder!kevin ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccrdave@caip.rutgers.edu (Lord Kahless @ Imperial From: Propoganda) Subject: Re: Questions about movie credits for ANDROID Date: 4 Jan 86 18:22:16 GMT What Klaus Kinski movie was ever made in the America? I thought they were all European, particularly German. ------------------------------ From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Questions about movie credits for ANDROID Date: 4 Jan 86 07:34:50 GMT Actually, I think Android was British (maybe Canadian?) Even so, all the person who played Max has to do is register "Max 404" as a pseudonym and the SAG will be happy. The Android people were probably just having a bit of fun. There is a precedent for it, anyway -- on the old Addams Family TV show, Thing was always credited as "Itself". Of course it never spoke (therefore qualifying as an extra under SEG instead of SAG) and it was played by whatever hand happened to be free at the time (so to speak). I recently watched an episode where the hand playing Thing changed at least three times that I noticed. I think Android was just a cute film that refused to take itself too seriously. I just wish more people were willing to do so... Chuq Von Rospach sun!chuq@decwrl.DEC.COM {hplabs,ihnp4,nsc,pyramid}!sun!chuq ------------------------------ From: lzaz!psc@caip.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Re: Lensman in Video Date: 3 Jan 86 15:22:52 GMT wildstar@nmtvax.UUCP writes: > Does anyone know if some movie producer plans to translate > the Lensman series (by Doc Smith) into a series of motion > pictures? Or if Marvel or DC plan to render it in comic form? I > think it may be a nice thing to see. Some Japanese animation company has already made a movie called "Lensman". The characters had the same names, but the story had very little to do with the E. E. Smith novels. (For example, a dying Lensman tells Kinnison to pass on a message; when he dies, his lens jumps on to Kinnison's wrist! "They've never done that before," says a Lensman later. No kidding!) I saw it with subtitles at a convention (L.A.Con II, I think, Labor Day weekend in 1984). BTW, if you have a comics-related question, post or cross-post to net.comics (but no, I haven't heard of a Lensman comic). Final note: There was a scene in Larry Niven's "Arm" (in THE LONG ARM OF GIL HAMILTON) when two characters reminisce about sneaking a Watchman-clone behind their books and watching the Lensman video in class. Paul S. R. Chisholm, ihnp4!lznv!psc (not ihnp4!lzaz!psc) ------------------------------ To: nmtvax!wildstar@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Lensman in Video Date: 04 Jan 86 21:20:57 PST (Sat) From: Jim Hester At TIMECON (San Jose, CA) this year they showed an annimated movie which may have been Skylark but I believe was Lensman. I believe it was Japanese produced. Unfortunately, I chose to attend a parallel activity, which partially explains my failure to be sure of which they showed. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 86 03:21:07 PST From: lah%miro@BERKELEY.EDU (Commander RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: More Hobbit Hunting... Well, now that I've found out what I'm looking for, I have discovered that it is nearly impossible to buy. Does anyone out there have the Argo Hobbit Records, who would be willing to get some cassettes from me via USSnail and tape the records and send me back the tapes? Pls respond to me personally -- no need to strain the readers' patience and the network load any more than necessary... Leigh Ann (USPO Address in case: 2240 Blake St. #103, Berkeley CA, 94704) ------------------------------ From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Trilogies: Not necessarily the author's choice. Date: 3 Jan 86 18:20:02 GMT > ... business reasons splits it into three inexpensive books rather > than one costly book. This is done in spite of (or because of) > the fact that the three books total price will exceed the price of > the costly book. Actually, it isn't that simple (is anything?) One of the main criteria is the price barrier. As cover price goes up, sales go down, and above a certain level (at one point it was at about $3.00 for a paperback) sales drop like a rock. Although Hubbard and Michener might be changing this to some degree, it is MUCH harder to get a single 250,000 word book sold because of the required cover price than it is to split it out. Readers view it as expensive and you lose the impulse buy. You also need to worry about nifty things like press capacity and binding (do you have machines that can print and put together 100,000 800 page paperbacks?) Also, if you spread it out into two or three books, you can spread out the printing costs over a year or more instead of a few months. If your machines are running close to capacity, you simply might not be able to use the resources necessary to print the equivalent of three books under a single title unless you're sure it is going to be a big seller Chuq Von Rospach sun!chuq@decwrl.DEC.COM {hplabs,ihnp4,nsc,pyramid}!sun!chuq ------------------------------ From: unirot!grr@caip.rutgers.edu (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Trilogies: Not necessarily the author's choice. Date: 4 Jan 86 21:45:23 GMT Interestingly enough, CJ Cherryh's lastest (if not greatest) book, 'The Kif Strike Back' has an author's note at the tail covering some why and wherefores of trilogies. No excuses for the title though... Also, someone mentioned that the Piers Anthony's Xanth series had to be the most overgrown trilogy. I am under the illusion that it is really a cluster of related trilogies. I can't be sure, since I decided quite a while ago that Anthony seems to have the same disease as Farmer, ie spewing endlessly while never getting beyond being cute and/or clever. George Robbins uucp: ...!ihnp4!tapa!grr ...!caip!unirot!grr P.O. Box 177 Lincoln U, PA 19352 ------------------------------ From: ritcv!abh6509@caip.rutgers.edu (A. Hudson) Subject: Re: Waves in science fiction. Date: 4 Jan 86 21:51:50 GMT wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes: >ins_amap@jhunix.UUCP (Mark Aden Poling) writes: >>... The New Wave seems in respect to have been an attempt to >>bring human values and attitudes into what had previously been >>very Machine oriented fiction. This of course meant that >>surrealism was prevalent in much of the "serious" SF published >>then. > >??? Surrealism was an art movement of the early 20th century that >attempted to free the workings of the so-called subconscious. Art >(whether painting, sculpture, literature, etc.) that is >surrealistic is characteristally dreamlike and presents objects and >events out of context; it attempts (as I understand it) to unlock >or touch the subconscious by destroying the normal chain of >associations that we have when we look at something. Thus the >famous painting (was it by Man Ray?) of the pipe (smoking) labelled >"ce n'est pas une pipe" (i.e., "this is not a pipe"). I hardly see >what surrealism has to do with the New Wave's attempt to bring >human values and attitudes into 'hard' SF. Certainly some New Wave >authors occasionally used techniques that had a surrealistic flavor >(a lot of J. G. Ballard's work has this flavor, to my way of >thinking) but the movement was not primarily a surrealistic >movement IN INTENT. I think that that although your interpretation of surrealism is valid, it is a more classic and constrained interpretation. Over-analysis of the works of surrealism will fail to perceive the intuitive senses of which are more important. Consider works like A. E. Van Vogt's Universe Maker, Pendulum, The Reflected Men - these have a dreamy-strangeness. He used to wake up in the middle of the night to add plot details. Consider Philip Dick's Martian Time Slip. Although one could argue that he was intending a description of neurosis or schizophrenia, I thought it had definite surrealistic overtones. I think you are correct in stating that there hasn't been any intentional movement of surrealistic writing. But then what movements are intentional? Can anyone recommend other sci-fi works with surrealistic influence?? A. Hudson ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Jan 86 0952-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #8 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 8 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 8 Today's Topics: Books - Bradley & Delany (2 msgs) & Feist & Spinrad & Tepper, Films - Lensman & The Works of J. Ward & Android, Miscellaneous - Sex in Books ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 Jan 86 12:50:59 +0100 From: XBR1YD22%DDATHD21.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (YD22@BR1.THDNET) Subject: Title Request - The Darkover Novels Could anybody supply a list of all the Darkover Novels by Marion Zimmer Bradley? I'd like to read more of them. Thank you very much. Please reply directly to me, I'll then summarize to the net. Ralf Bayer Computer Center of the Technical University of Darmstadt Darmstadt, West Germany ARPAnet: xbr1yd22%ddathd21.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ From: im4u!jsq@caip.rutgers.edu (John Quarterman) Subject: Re: Should book ads disclose sexual slant? Date: 5 Jan 86 01:38:10 GMT I wonder if the idea that to appreciate a story one must identify with its major characters is attributable to television? (Half serious.) Back to Delany: Just about all of his early work has no sex in it at all. This includes The Jewels of Aptor, the Towers Trilogy, the Einstein Intersection, Babel-17, and Nova. Read the last three if you don't like some particular variety of sex in your books but want to see why Delany is considered to be such a good writer. Babel-17 has a strong female protagonist, for those who are tired of Delany's Kidd character. There are several short story collections, none with a bad story, many of them Hugo or Nebula winners, all with practically no sex. If you *want* weird sex, try Tides of Lust (if you can find it). It's got a bit of everything. It appears that he wanted to practice writing about sex before he wrote Dhalgren. Personally, I like his later stuff as well or better than his earlier. John Quarterman UUCP: {gatech,harvard,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq ARPA Internet and CSNET: jsq@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU, jsq@sally.UTEXAS.EDU ------------------------------ From: harvard!dyer@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Dyer) Subject: Re: Should book ads disclose sexual slant? Date: 5 Jan 86 17:29:07 GMT I was wondering what discussion Bill Oliver was participating in in his most recent posting on Delany's book, but I suspect that it's been lost in the net, for everything he says seems pretty irrelevant to the points at hand. To review some facts: o there is no "book review" here, only a book ad. o for those who have read, or will take the trouble to read SIMPLGOS, you will note that his treatment of sexuality really has little to do with "gay"/"straight" issues. It is certainly anyone's prerogative to take offense at Delany's book, but that does not exempt the person who makes a public statement about being offended by the supposed "gay" slant of the novel from equally public criticism. We'd take any similar statements about other groups as simply vulgar and an indication that the poster had problems which needed to be worked on, and it think it's to the credit of everyone who's responded except Bill that this is the prevailing sentiment here. It's a little unclear to me why Bill cites three articles on evil/bad sexual practice, because the offensive part of Friedman's article was PRECISELY because he expressed a dislike for the book's um, orientation, and not because he felt that specific acts were evil or immoral. How SHOULD someone respond, huh? "Thank you for sharing that with us"? Steve Dyer dyer@harvard.harvard.edu harvard!dyer ------------------------------ From: udenva!wbruvold@caip.rutgers.edu (wbruvold) Subject: Re: MAGICIAN, by Raymond E. Feist---and sequels? Date: 6 Jan 86 01:35:47 GMT chris@umcp-cs.UUCP (Chris Torek) claims: >Recently I bought a paperback entitled `Magician: Apprentice'. It >turns out that this is Book I of II concerning one Pug, Magician's >Apprentice, his companions, and the events during his rather >unusual apprenticeship. Both books are part of a larger tale, `The >Riftwar Saga', comprising also the stories `Silverthorn' and `A >Darkness at Sethanon'. > >I have since discovered that Doubleday had printed as a single >edition books I and II of Magician in hardback in 1982, and in >trade paperback in 1984---fortunately, as Book II, `Magician: >Master', is not yet available in its Bantam Spectra mass market >edition; and I dislike leaving a tale unfinished. Well, this >brings me to a question: In the back of the trade paperback >edition, I find the words `Watch for Silverthorn, the sequel to >Magician, coming soon from Doubleday'; and in the front cover of >the paperback edition, dates are listed for neither Silverthorn nor >A Darkness at Sethanon. I would like to know whether these are in >print and by whom: Publishers do not always print books that are >`coming soon'. I also enjoyed the work and The author's treatment of his characters and their backgrounds. However, your above story is very confusing so here is mine and perhaps you can piece together what you need. I read a paper back version of the first book entitled "Magician". This was not a trade paperback and I had my book store order it for me. It was published by Doubleday and retailed for about $8.50. Singlethorn was published in the fall of '85 in hardback (no news on paperback) again by Doubleday and cost 10-15. As far as the third book, I have no idea when it is coming out but I am kepping my eyes peeled on Books in Print for it. My suggestion is to wait till you see Singlethorn come out in paperback (it suffers from the dreaded 2nd in a trilogy problem) and get it then. The bottom line therefore is that Singlethorn is out, it is still only in hardback (as of Dec15,1985) and Darkneess at Sethanon is not yet out. Hope this helps W. Erik Bruvold ------------------------------ From: rubin@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Rubin) Subject: CHILD OF FORTUNE by Norman Spinrad Date: 7 Jan 86 07:29:31 GMT CHILD OF FORTUNE, by Norman Spinrad. (Bantam, 1985, 483 pp.) Review by Michael Rubin. I can't figure out why a book like CHILD OF FORTUNE would be written in 1985; it seems trapped in the Sixties, somewhere between Haight-Ashbury and Never-Never Land. It isn't an examination of or coming to terms with the hippie phenomenon, but a fairly heavy romanticization. Yet despite this odd choice of starting point it is an altogether well-told and delightful story. The premise is that in a healthy society, teenagers are given a "wanderjahr", a rite of passage consisting of spending year or so out on the road to discover oneself. (Aborigines on walkabout, gypsies, tinkers, ronin and hippies are listed as early versions.) Moussa, the spoiled, precocious daughter of fashionable artists, goes for her wanderjahr to planet Edoku. She meets the king of the funky street people, a possibly immortal fellow styling himself "Pater Pan", who renames her Sunshine and convinces her to be a storyteller. Then follow a series of adventures, including a new and scary version of the story of the Lotus Eaters. By the end of the book she has renamed herself Wendi, and is a writer and an interstellar celebrity and presumably lives happily ever after (unless there's a sequel). In the meantime Spinrad delivers a lot of wisdom about storytelling and archetypes from the mouths of the various storyteller and writer characters. That seems to be stylish in fiction these days, and I'm not sure whether I agree with (or understand) all he has to say. But he is consciously writing an archetypical rite-of-passage story with lots of archetype characters, and all the references seem to click (and it's a GOOD archetypical rite-of-passage story). The language is flowery and rather precious, with bits of French, German, Japanese and a few more languages sprinkled around. This speech pattern is appropriate for the jet-set heroine but some readers may find it tough going. My personal problem with this book was, again, the premise. In 1969 I was in a fashionably liberal private grade school in Manhattan, painting peace signs in Arts & Crafts, unaware that students were rioting two miles away at Columbia and not even really conscious that there were poor people living on the next block. The world of CHILD OF FORTUNE seems nearly as sanitized: no politics or war intrude, people are poor only by choice, and the only major sin is to be spiritually unfulfilled. As much as this situation is beautiful and romantic and wouldn't-it-be-lovely, I'm not sure how much it has to say about actual people. Give it +1 on the -4 to +4 Leeper scale. Oh yes, it seems to be the same universe as THE VOID CAPTAIN'S TALE, which I haven't read. ------------------------------ From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: JINIAN FOOTSEER by Sheri S. Tepper (mild spoiler) Date: 2 Jan 86 16:27:45 GMT The jacket reads: "Bright the sun burning, Night will come turning Mothwings go spinning, End and beginning, Eye of the Star, Where Old Gods are. Players, take your places...The Land itself calls Game!" If you haven't read one of Ms. Tepper's previous novels (KING'S BLOOD FOUR, NECROMANCER NINE, or WIZARD'S ELEVEN), the information on the jacket won't mean anything. In this world people either have a Talent (such as seeing the future, reading minds, and following tracks) or they don't. A Talentless person is called a pawn. A person with one or more Talents usually falls into a particular class for that combination, and one of the things just about everyone learns is the Index which lists the known classifications. More often than not, people with Talents compete against each other, sometimes just to see who has more skill, but frequently with the intent to injure or kill. This particular book concerns a teenage girl, Jinian. Her mother is the top lady at a castle, but she only cares for her sons. Jinian is taken under wing by six pawns, women who teach her the "Wize arts". Various adventures take place thanks to Jinian's troublesome relatives. I was fascinated by this book. Jinian appears partway through WIZARD'S ELEVEN, and this book explains how she got there. The story is just as interesting and exciting as those told by Peter Shapechanger (the narrator of the other three novels), starting slowly and increasing in pace until you don't want to put the book down. The world is one more of fantasy than science fiction, but it is very complex and well thought out. One bit of advice in reading WIZARD'S ELEVEN and JINIAN FOOTSEER. The last chapter of JINIAN FOOTSEER summarizes Jinian's part in WIZARD'S ELEVEN. This comes after the climax, so it doesn't mean that you have to read WIZARD'S ELEVEN first in order to enjoy the book. However, if you haven't read WIZARD'S ELEVEN, I recommend skipping the last chapter (19) because it may spoil reading WIZARD'S ELEVEN. I give the book 3.5 stars (very, very good). Duane Morse ...!noao!terak|anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jan 86 08:17:25 PST (Monday) Subject: Re: Lensman in Video To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Andrew, To my knowledge, only one film adaptation of the Lensman series has been done. It was an excellent Japanese animation, which used computer graphics for a number of the space scenes. However, I saw the non-subtitled Japanese version, so I don't know if the dialog was terribly good. Overall it seemed to very roughly approximate the first Lensman novel. Distinctly worth seeing, though. Kurt ------------------------------ Subject: J. Ward Date: 06 Jan 86 12:53:25 PST (Mon) From: Dave Godwin Hi folks. I come to you here with a not-quite sf request, but with all the talk about animation gone past in recent weeks, I'm hoping I can get a response from somebody. I am looking to contact any person who has possession of any of the animated works of Mr. J. Ward. I don't mean originals, just playable copies of anything. ( For those of you who can't recall the name, Ward did Rocky & Bullwinkle, Fractured Fairytales, George of the Jungle, Tom Slick, and a couple of others I can't remember. ) Spread the word around, ask your friendly, local, video nut. Thanks in advance, folks. Dave Godwin University of California, Irving ------------------------------ From: ihlpg!tainter@caip.rutgers.edu (Tainter) Subject: Re: My theory on the credits for ANDROID Date: 6 Jan 86 20:37:08 GMT >> Then second from the top of the closing credits (right after >>Klaus Kinski) it says; >> Max 404.......Himself > As android was mediocre SF fare, simply the 1e6th rehashing of > Frankenstein with a twist, the actor who played Max 4040 was > probably displeased and refused to allow the use of his name in > the credits. You can insist that your name go in the credits, and > you can also insist on a stage name of any sort. What?! You don't believe they used a real android? :-) Seriously though, I am not beyond believing a combination of camera tricks, animation tricks and animatronics like work could be used to artificially produce a character. Although I don't think it was done in Android. johnathan a. tainter ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jan 86 08:39 PST From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Sexual Slant in Novels - "Stars in My Pocket..." rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) writes: > Finally, it betrays a lack of knowledge of publishing: publishers > are legally free to put anything they like on book covers; not > even the author has ANY control over what goes on them. The > disclaimers being suggested are not only utterly irrelevant to > publishing practices, they imply a warped kind of public service > at odds with what publishing houses see as effective and > appropriate cover advertising. I have several points, the first being the more important (and more cogent). 1) If publishers stray too far from the truth on the book covers, I would hope people would stop buying them. (Intelligent people anyway.) So I think there is a limiting factor to the blatant dishonesty found on book covers. 2) What Rizzo's message implies to me is that he holds the following view: If it is the status quo, you have no right to complain about it. WRONG! Not being one to suggest that we return to the attitudes of Victorian times, I believe that society decides what is appropriate to appear in public. Novels are in the public domain and regardless of whether the practices under discussion are "utterly irrelevant to publishing practices" they are a valid point of discussion, and society may demand that they change. What happens in private is another matter. 3) I think that SF (to get back to the topic) and SF readers are relatively flexible on sexual topics. For this reason, the SF book club and publishers need not be as careful about such things as other publishers and book clubs. I think that this is good: I wish the entire world population would be as flexible as I perceive SF readers to be. 4) The original poster has every right to demand more disclosure on the cover of the book. The publisher has every right to ignore that demand. I see no conflict here. Admittedly, the topic would never have come up if this were not a predominantly heterosexual world, but this is not an issue when it comes to the right of the individual to complain. I have more to say, but I'll get off the soapbox now and let someone else have it lest I wear out my welcome. Dave ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Jan 86 1011-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #9 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 8 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 9 Today's Topics: Books - Feist & Russell, Films - Klaus Kinski, Television - Overdrawn at the Memory Bank, Miscellaneous - Sex in Books (2 msgs) & Censorship ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: MAGICIAN, by Raymond E. Feist---and sequels? Date: 8 Jan 86 07:22:00 GMT I should have looked before I posted my original question. Silverthorn is indeed out in hardback, from Doubleday, ISBN 0-385-19210-X. Whether it is worth the cover price I do not yet know. Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ From: apollo!nazgul@caip.rutgers.edu (Kee Hinckley) Subject: Re: story request Date: 6 Jan 86 23:30:36 GMT michaelm@3comvax.UUCP (Michael McNeil) writes: >>From: Stephen Balzac >>Well, I don't remember anything about a story involving "obs", but >>the other sounds like a story by Poul Anderson. I don't remember >>the title, but it can be found in a collection of his stories >>called, "7 Conquests." > > The article that the above is a reply to has unfortunately > scrolled off our system, so I'm not sure what was actually > requested, but a story involving "obs" was the novel *The Great > Explosion* by Eric Frank Russell. A resurgent Earth is attempting > to bring back into Hmmm. Does anyone know if that is still in print? I have a collection of short stories that has the 'obs' story in it, but I don't believe that it was tied in with any others. Kee Hinckley ...decvax!wanginst!apollo!nazgul ------------------------------ From: lcliffor@bbncca.ARPA (Laura Frank Clifford) Subject: Re: Questions about movie credits for ANDROID Date: 7 Jan 86 17:08:23 GMT Klaus Kinski was in "Dr. Zhivago" (British? or American), "For a Few Dollars More" (American or Italian?), "Venom" (British, I believe), "Schizoid" (American or Canadian), "Raid on Entebbe" (I think an American made-for-TV movie) -- so he doesn't only appear in German productions. If anyone knows any I've missed, I'd love to know - Kinski's my favorite! I've also recently seen an Embassy/Home Video production of "Beauty and the Beast" starring Klaus Kinski and Susan Sarandon. I had never heard of this - does anyone know how it was originally distributed (Shelly Duvall's Fairy Tale Theater, perhaps?). Laura Clifford ------------------------------ From: stc!pete@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Overdrawn at the Memory Bank Date: 6 Jan 86 14:23:00 GMT A TV programme by this name is being shown on Channel 4 next Saturday. I believe it originated in the US. 2 questions:- 1) Is it an adaptation of the John Varley story of the same name? 2) Will a John Varley fan (i.e. me) writhe, swear and tear his hair out if he watches it? I've seen one or two naff SF programmes..... Peter Kendell ...!mcvax!ukc!stc!pete ------------------------------ From: hlexa!hsf@caip.rutgers.edu (Henry Friedman) Subject: Re: Should book ads disclose sexual slant? Date: 6 Jan 86 16:19:26 GMT > Gee, all the replies I've see seem unanimous on pretty much all > points. But how has this affected Mr. Friedman, the person with > the original questions? Would he care to indicate his reaction to > the feedback? Is he gonna write the book club? Ever read another > book with gay characters? I presume Delany's latest will be > shelved and ressurrected only during moments of extreme insomnia. > bob usenet: decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-vaxwrk!peterson I appreciate all the feedback, criticisms, flames, etc. While there was general agreement on some points, the reactions were quite diverse, taken as a whole. Some points which hit home were: 1) Read reviews, not just ads. 2) "Blame, etc." are not issues on questions of personal taste. 3) Complain if you think an ad was misleading. (I'd like to send them all these reactions, if it were practical to expect the club managers to read them. But gee, if I complain and they give me my money back, I'll lose my two bonus points :-) ). I apparently did not make myself clear enough that I didn't find explicit gay sex scenes shocking or repugnant--just uninteresting. Also, I didn't cross-post to net.motss to complain to the gay community--just to give its members a chance to participate in the discussion of the issue.(I certainly was not surprised at the general lack of sympathy, but expect that many gay readers,in general, want to know when a book has special appeal to a gay market. I was amused by the one guy who thanked me for letting him know the book had gay appeal, as he didn't particularly like SF, anyway, and certainly not if he had to plow through pages of straight sex.) One interesting point, Jill Rose confirmed a suspicion that others had voiced: books INTENDED MAINLY to appeal to gay readers are often marketed in a purposely ambiguous fashion to increase sales. One person who actually read the book thought I exaggerated the extent to which explicit gay sex was highlighted. He may be right, as I stopped at about the exact midpoint of the book based upon expectations. At that point there were already indications that the romantic scenes were to be largely gay. And the two central characters, after having received computer indications that they were each other's perfect erotic objects down to 5 decimal places, were retiring to a bedroom to evaluate this report. I didn't find this shocking or repulsive, just uninteresting (if much of the remainder was to be in this vein). If a review indicates that a book with gay themes or characters is great (or a great read), I would not AVOID reading it, especially if the general themes, etc, seemed of interest. Henry Friedman ------------------------------ From: unc!oliver@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Oliver) Subject: Re: Should book ads disclose sexual slant? Date: 7 Jan 86 04:20:50 GMT dyer@harvard.UUCP (Steve Dyer) writes: >I was wondering what discussion Bill Oliver was participating in in >his most recent posting on Delany's book, but I suspect that it's >been lost in the net, for everything he says seems pretty >irrelevant to the points at hand. To review some facts: > > o there is no "book review" here, only a book ad. > o for those who have read, or will take the trouble to > read SIMPLGOS, you will note that his treatment of > sexuality really has little to do with "gay"/"straight" > issues. I apologise if my comments regarding the questions about objecting to homosexual content in a book seemed a bit bizarre. In part, this was because my first reply was in fact a comment on Mr. Kiselev's statement that one should not have a preference in the way sex is depicted in literature, since "sex is sex." I suppose I am simply rather sensitized to the subject due to my line of work (for those of you who do not read net.med, I am a forensic pathologist. Forensic Pathology is that medical specialty which deals primarily in the evaluation of unnatural death, though we are also usually heavily involved in evaluating any process, natural or unnatural, which has a general public health impact.), but I was trying to make the point that sex is not just sex, and that one should not mildly accept nor feel obligated to appreciate a literary description of sexual activity on the ground that a nonjudgemental approach to the subject is necessarily the best approach. In the case of the paraphilias, it is a repeated pattern that practitioners mature within a given practice, beginning with the aquisition and appreciation of allusionary or allegoric material, move to more explicit accounts, and eventually to frankly pornographic material which is then used both for gratification alone and as templates for acting out. Maturation of paraphilic experience is thus a learning experience which may occur over a period of years, ending in fatality and/or exploitation. As to Mr. Dyer's criticism that what I had to say had little to do with homosexuality, I must admit culpability and repeat that I reacted more to Mr. Kiselev's reply than to the original question. I certainly do not wish to imply that homosexuality, per se, is a paraphilia. Quite the opposite; I have dealt with more than a few people who suffered considerable ill effects because of such a misapprehension. One young man, for instance, tried so hard to deny his homosexuality that he became engaged to be married. He suffered numerous psychosomatic diseases, including peptic ulcer disease and ulcerative colitis, both of which can be extrememly serious and rarely frankly life threatening, primarily because of his profound constant anxiety. Once he accepted his orientation, his health improved immeasurably. Still, I feel strongly that Mr. Friedman (the original poster) need not feel guilty in any way because he lacks an appreciation for homosexual literature. My second point was that if one has a pronounced preference for a given sexual orientation in literature, it is not "wrong" to express that preference in one's buying habits, nor is it "wrong" to be disappointed when those preferences are not met in a book that one expected to gratify that preference. The original poster had specifically asked if it was somehow wrong for him to be disappointed in finding a homosexual slant in a book he had bought with the expectation of finding descriptions of heterosexual sensuality. My ignorance that the reviews by the Quality Paperback Book Club are meant to be very brief was a misapprehension based on my experience with the only book club I belong to, the History Book Club. In it, most new additions to the lists are accompanied by a review of a few pages in length. While older books are described in just a short sentence, almost all books listed have been reviewed at length at some time. I still feel that a book club has a certain responsibilty to its members - I have seen volumes of Norman's Gor series described in the same uninformative terms of "sensuality" and would be distressed to find that I had spent money to obtain such a volume. As an aside for those of you interested in history, I have been extremely happy with the service and selection of the History Book Club. I suppose that since I am strongly opposed to literary censorship (Indeed, there is often no better way to attempt to understand the psychodynamics of, or subjective responses to the paraphilias than through literary description. Observe the description of erotic asphyxiation in William S. Burroughs' "Naked Lunch", or the hanging of Roland in "Justine" by de Sade.), I feel that the most appropriate way for society to deal with paraphilic literature is through diffuse societal disapproval rather than legislation. In another area of public health, such a society wide approbation is developing, for instance, against cigarette smoking, and I feel that such an attitude will work effectively to decrease fatality as today's young mature. Similar attitudes are developing regarding drinking and driving. Unfortunately, I see the opposite occuring in the area of sexuality, with greater societal acceptance of a number of sexual activities which may lead to greater exploitation of the young and an increase in sexually related fatalities. Of the lust murders I have seen in the past few months, the great majority have been perpetrated by people under the age of 18. I have great respect for Mr. Delany, both for his writing and for his success as a homosexual parent, though I prefer his earlier work (Triton, Driftglass, Dhalgren, The Ballad of Beta Two) to his later efforts. While I have never had the pleasure of meeting him, my cousin, a poet in New York and student of Allen Ginsburg (her name is Alice Notley - BUY HER BOOKS!!!) has had such an opportunity and describes him in glowing terms. Upon reflection, I am sure that Mr. Kiselev, when he made such global statments that "sex is sex" and "romance is romance", had the vision of any number of loving couples in mind. When I read such a statement, however, I instead thought of fugue states and edged weapons. I apologise for projecting my concerns on the net. Bill Oliver ------------------------------ From: fluke!moriarty@caip.rutgers.edu (Jeff Meyer) Subject: Ellison, TZ, Censorship, Moral Fiber, etc. Date: 6 Jan 86 21:20:11 GMT One of the most unpleasant of all post-Christmas tasks has to be coming back from vacation and re-discovering how nasty people can get over an emotional discussion. I was going to leave the issue alone, like a decaying roadkill carcass, when I remembered an article I read this month that had some impact on this issue. It's from the popular radio (NPR), TV (Nightline), and literary "social critic", Ian ("I gotta go") Shoales (aka Merle Kessler and the Duck's Breath Mystery Theatre). It's on censorship, and while it doesn't completely fit the current flame-out on Ellison, CBS and Twilight going on, I thought it provided a capper and/or summary of my feeling on the whole issue of censorship, written much better than I ever could (yes, I know, that's not much of a feat). Any flames will be cheerfully dumped on the compost heap. Reprinted without permission from _I_Gotta_Go_ by Ian Shoales; I suggest you read at a breakneck speed, it sounds more like Ian: (deleted) 'Nuff said. I gotta go, too... Jeff Meyer ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA UUCP: {uw-beaver, sun, allegra, sb6, lbl-csam}!fluke!moriarty ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Jan 86 1159-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #10 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 10 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 10 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Donaldson & Richmond & Robinson & Book Request Answered, Films - Trumbull & Lensman, Television - The Prisoner, Miscellaneous - Women in SF (2 msgs) & Sex in SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wednesday, 08 Jan 86 13:16:49 EST From: sclafani (michael sclafani) @ a.psy.cmu.edu Subject: Piers Anthony Sos the Rope, Var the Stick, and Nek the Sword have been published together as Battle Circle. It's very different from most of Anthony's work, and it was the first work of his that I read. The society he creates is very interesting, and the characters are fairly vivid. The book is a bit on the depressing side, with conflicts from misunderstanding along the lines of To Reign In Hell. Much different from the Xanth books, and much, much better. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jan 86 17:20:40 pst From: stever@cit-vlsi.ARPA (Steve Rabin ) Brokedown Palace is, in my humble opinion, Brust's best book to date. I was expecting another Zelazny imitation, and was pleasantly suprised - Brust seems to have developed a style all his own. A "Hungarian folk-tale" style (sort of). He steals two placenames (my favorite) and quotes, from Hunter's lyrics, but with due acknowledgement :-) Regards, -Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jan 86 11:37 PST From: Dave Platt Subject: Thomas Covenant Jordan E Kalpin asked about any additional books by Steven Donaldson in the Thomas Covenant series. I attended an autograph session at A Change of Hobbit a couple of years ago, just after The One Tree came out in hardcover. A person standing in front of me asked if there would be a third trilogy; Donaldson replied something on the order of "Well, I have some ideas... and in a few years, if it seems like a good idea, then I'll write a third one". I haven't heard anything more recent. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jan 86 11:24 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: ? Thank you for your responses to my story search. This weekend I was at my local SF bookstore (Uncle Hugo's SF Bookstore, Minneapolis, MN) and picked up a copy of it, along with some others, and promptly read it. A review follows. The Lost Millenium by Walt and Leigh Richmond ACE Double (flipside: a Bertram Chandler Rim story) 1967 (?) (Non-spoiler) This story was an enjoyable attempt to provide an science fiction explanation to mythological (read biblical) occurrences. My chief complaint was that it was too big a concept for such a short book (~140 pages). Since this book is out-of-print as all ACE Doubles are, you will have to hit the used bookstores in your area. But this has the added bonus of reducing the cost of this book considerably. (My copy was 75 cents or a dollar, I think.) (*** Mega Spoiler Warning ***) The story starts with an engineer who is building the first "Solar Tap", a power generator that uses the electrical potential that exists between the ionosphere and the ground as an near infinite power supply. It gets its name from the charging effect that the solar wind has on the ionosphere. The Earth is like a big electrical generator. An archaeologist comes and asks him a few questions about his generator, which is in the form of a large pyramid, and then starts telling him a story about what he believes happened 8600 years ago in a civilization that had developed the Solar Tap. At the time, there was one supercontinent called Atalama, (the basis for the Atlantis myths). The Solar Tap allows nearly-free broadcast power. Orbital shuttles are launched from the north pole power station. Flying "carapets" are the major personal transport. Several interstellar colony ships have been sent up to 1100 lightyears away at near light speed. Instead of conveying Doctorates, universities in this society gave Lordorates. So, many of the characters are Lord So-and-so, instead of Dr. So-and-so. Advanced genetic research is taking place, and the first domestic animals, dog and cat, are being produced in the lab, as well as studies into immortality. An accident occurs at the polar station, and an uncontrollable "avalanche" occurs. A gigantic arc between negative and ground that is continually charged. This turns the Earth into a motor and the rotation increases tremendously over several days until the continent breaks up from the stress and the pole shifts. Some escape in a shuttle to the last starship to leave. A few survive in a submarine. When the starship returns, 2200 years later (ain't relativity great), the genetic engineer that stayed in the sub has created a new race of men from his own cells and also immortality for himself (Adam and Eve with himself as God). In the process of cleaning up some excess carbon-14 from the avalanche, the Earth must be flooded (Noah's Arc). The genetic engineer decides to take his favorite of the new-men with him to the colony planet. (The Lord so loved Enoch that he often walked with him. And one day the Lord took Enoch up into the heavens with him. [paraphrased]). (*** end spoiler ***) Some scientific details are rather sketchy, and some unexplained, but generally the story is fairly good. Like I said above, my major gripe is that major aspects of the biblical myth are explained by the archaeologist, which should have been told from the point of view of the scientists in the past. This was done to reduce the length to novelette (novella?) in size, I'm sure. I would like to start a list of stories and novels that offer explanations of myths (Atlantis, the Bible, etc.). Please send your favorites to my address and I will post a list. Brett Slocum (Slocum\@HI-MULTICS.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 8 Jan 1986 05:07:17-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Spider Robinson & ANTINOMY > From: Dave Godwin > While it is true that Antinomy is now a rare book ( the > publishing house folded while the first edition was being printed), Not so. It was published by Dell Books, which is still a very healthy publishing company. It's possible that you're confusing their ceasing their science fiction line with their folding completely. Dell never was very enthusiastic about publishing sf. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 86 10:39:13 PST (Wednesday) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #5 From: hallgren.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA >From: MSgt Robert L. Stevenson >I would like to knopw if anyone out there knows the other two >titles of a trilogy in which one of the title is _A Dark Star >Passes_. It concerns a group of young scientists (one of the names >is Morrey (sp)) their inventions and inter-galactic exploits. I am >afraid I don't remember the author either. Any help would be >appreciated. The answer to the question is: THE BLACK STAR PASSES THE ISLANDS OF SPACE INVADERS FROM THE INFINITE Arcot, Wade, and Morey are the three young scientists. Space Opera with a lot of synthetic jargon. Written by John Campbell, jr., before he became an editor. (In the 1930s!) ------------------------------ From: cfa!mink@caip.rutgers.edu (Doug Mink) Subject: Re: name of movie (Silent Running) Date: 8 Jan 86 19:06:14 GMT > The movie you described is "Silent Running", made in 1972. It was > produced and the special effects were done by Douglass Trumbull, > who also had a hand in the special effects of "2001: A Space > Odyssey", which was made in 1968. It is my understanding that one of the reasons Trumbull made this film was to show Stanley Kubrick that Saturn and its rings could be simulated. Kubrick didn't believe they could and moved the monolith in "2001" from Iapetus, a satellite of Saturn, to an orbit around Jupiter. In my opinion, Trumbull succeeded. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jan 86 11:37 PST From: Dave Platt Subject: Lensman Andrew Jonathan Fine asked whether the Lensman series might be translated into a series of movies, or comics. I understand that an animated version of The Lensman has already been produced in Japan; I believe that a Japanese-language version with English subtitles has seen some limited distribution here in the U.S., but it's probably pretty difficult to find. I haven't seen any of it myself, but it was mentioned at an animated-film screening I attended at A Change of Hobbit in LA about a year ago. Check with your local comic/animated fan club... they might be able to give you some leads. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 86 09:35:33 PST (Wednesday) Subject: Re: Prisioner and number 6 From: jackson.PARC@Xerox.ARPA >Sorry to put this in VERY LATE. This show was made as the "Fifth" >man of the Philby/Maclean/Burgress ... spy ring (Real World British >Intelligence) was being "found". I have frequently believed that >Number "6" refered to a mythical "sixth" man. Sorry, Patrick McGoohan cites his inspiration as the phrase "six of one, half a dozen of the other". stephen jackson ------------------------------ From: teklds!hankb@caip.rutgers.edu (Hank Buurman) Subject: Women in sf/fantasy Date: 6 Jan 86 22:06:32 GMT There has been a great deal of discussion/debate in this group and others about feminist Science Fiction writers, and strong female protaganists created by authors of either gender. As I find the whole subject of human sexuality fascinating, I have followed the discussion and read many of the authors mentioned such as Russ, Bradley, Lynn, etc. I must say that I have enjoyed each of their works very much. But it seems that a euphemism for "strong female protaganist" in their works, and in the various postings, is "Lesbian Protaganist" or "Bisexual Protaganist". OK. That doesn't bother me at all because some of the most interesting and intelligent women I have known in my life have been lesbian, or bi. I personally feel that a women's sexual preferences are part of her psyche, and immaterial (unless she's a sexual partner of mine) to our rapport. However, I seem to be finding women in science fiction more and more (also in general fiction) who are bi/gay. And sometimes unexpectedly by non-feminist writers. This gives one pause, and I would like to pose some questions to the readers of this group(s). 1. Is this perceived by the majority as the future of female sexuality? 2. Is this merely a reflection of todays "Bisexual Chic"? 3. Can a female protaganist be physically/mentally superior to men without being bi/gay? 4. Would you, as a reader, prefer your heroines be gay? Bi? Straight? 5. Would you, as an author, prefer your heroines be gay? Bi? Straight? 6. Would you prefer male heros to be gay? Bi? Straight? 7. Will you continue to read novels about bi/gay female protaganists even when plainly detailed on the cover? If this topic interests you, answer by e-mail and I will summarize to the group(s) in about three or four weeks. Hank Buurman ihnp4!tektronix!dadlac!hankb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jan 86 11:27 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: More comments on Feminism and SF I agree that martial arts sometime tend toward grace and ballet, but I also agree with Charlie Martin's remarks in that regard. My own experience with martial arts, though short term, is in Shotokan and I was not taught ballet, but rather how to defeat your opponent no matter how large, mean, armed, or whatever. In fact, my instructor had a distinct disdain for fancy moves. Such martial art staples as the flying drop kick were thought to be pure theatre, and not very useful in a real fight. Incidentally, my instructor was very "real fight" experienced, and about 5'3" tall. And his best student was a 5'6" asthmatic "Southern Belle" type. She could certainly generate the "considerable degree of force" required. As far as SF is concerned (or any genre), it doesn't follow that a book that doesn't have women swinging battle-axes is "chauvinistic". Your comment about Larry Niven includes a very important statement: "strong female characters occur". My concept of chauvinist SF would not have any strong female characters. Any female characters would be there to be protected, romanced, raped, or whatever, by the male characters. Conversely, feminist fiction doesn't have heavily armed women running around killing everything that wears pants. Feminist fiction has better things to say than "Woman can kill, maim, and cause blood to spurt just as well as a man can." Such as "There are better things to do with ones time than killing, maiming, and causing blood to spurt." Brett Slocum (Slocum\@HI-MULTICS) P.S. Been off the ARPANET for about two weeks, so this is a little old. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 8 Jan 86 01:14:07-PST From: Mark Crispin Subject: sexual slant in SF books Come now. Many people who read SF like to envision themselves in the story. It's difficult to do so if all the characters engage in sexual practices the reader finds repulsive. Let's face it; a very large number of people consider sexual relations with somebody other than of that person's preferred gender to be repulsive or at least unimaginable. And before I hear the tiresome orchestrated "homophobe" response, allow me to point out that a large number of people also find graphic depictions of rape to be repulsive. Sex is something that people have *powerful* feelings about. It is just as ridiculous to call a heterosexual close-minded for being disinterested in reading about gay sex as are the misguided attempts to "cure" homosexuals that until recently appeared to have been relegated to the garbage heap of history. I feel that most people are willing to accept the existence of alternative sexual behavior from their own (Anita Bryant and Jerry Falwell get most of their followers from the ignorant and low-class). However, many people prefer to restrict their intake of explicit sexual material to that of their own preference. I for one would not knowingly buy an SF book that had graphic sexual contents that was exclusively gay. I'd find the sexual material either boring or repulsive and it would be enough to turn me off to the entire book. It's also somewhat out of context with reality; gays are only 15% or so of the general population. Exclusively gay societies are unlikely to exist because (in general) gays don't reproduce and even when they do, 85% of the children turn out to be straight. I was quite able to enjoy McCaffrey's dragonrider books, even though most of the male dragonriders are (because of their dragon's needs) bisexual. Perhaps some readers would have appreciated some details about brown/green matings or were disappointed with F'nor for weyring with Brekke...it was fine with me the way it was. I am quite willing to believe that gays may find a lot of straight-oriented sexual SF material to be repulsive. I'm afraid the answer is the same as it is to straights who encounter gay-oriented sexual SF material: read something else. There is quite enough non-sexual SF to spend a lifetime reading. If you want sex with your SF, you have to look for what fits your own interests. Mark PS: Somebody mentioned the PMRC...personally, I think it's an outstanding idea to rate records. Now the teenagers who are trying to buy X-rated records (that is, the vast majority of teenagers) won't be deceived into buying some dreck that happens to have a sexy cover. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Jan 86 1340-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #11 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 11 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 11 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Delany, Television - Overdrawn at the Memory Bank, Miscellaneous - Sex in SF (2 msgs) & Descriptions in Books ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Jan 86 07:52:50 PST (Thursday) From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: "Brokedown Palace" by Steven Brust Dan, I disagree with your negative review of Brokedown Palace. I enjoyed it thoroughly. Rather than an attempt to emulate a Zelazny novel, it rather attempts to emulate the classic style of european fairy tales and allegories. The reason this style is classic is because it works well to convey morals and messages without being heavy handed. I thought he pulled it off rather well. ****** Possible Spoiler Ahead ******* The story must be read not as a literal plot, but as an allegory about duty, strength, loyalty, and rationality. The book makes fine points about how, while all of these virtues are to be cultivated, one virtue carried to extremes is a vice in itself. The subtle nature of allegory often precludes heavy detailing or characterization. These things are almost always subordinated to the theme being illustrated. Calling Miklos a 'lump' is hardly fair treatment of a character who must play the part of the balanced man. Everyman was hardly a dazzling hero full of surprises, nor was the plot of that allegory convoluted and endowed with a surprising twist. Everyman would have failed as an adventure tale or comedy, but has endured for centuries because of the basic ethical themes it illustrates. Brokedown Palace may have a similar place one day. Kurt ------------------------------ From: cstvax!db@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Berry) Subject: Re: Should book ads disclose sexual slant? Date: 6 Jan 86 14:27:18 GMT hsf@hlexa.UUCP (Henry Friedman) writes: >1) Should ads for novels at least suggest whether the sex/romance > is predominantly straight or gay? (I don't think this would be > necessary if the main themes are not romantic, such as novels > about social/political oppression.) AHEM - gay people are socially oppressed all over the world, and politically oppressed in most places. (I guess SF & LA may be exceptions to this). Anyway, the main theme of "Stars in my Pocket ..." isn't romantic, at least I didn't think so. It's about the uncertainty surrounding language; the family vs. the SIGN, the linguistic WEB (an image he used in Babel 17). The central character is called Marq Dyeth (MARK DIE-ETH, geddit?). The "romantic" bits are more concerned with sexuality than romance - which sexual practices are tolerated in different societies, how people react to this. >4) Do I have a point in objecting to the way the book club > advertised the book? No. Gayness is perfectly normal, and shouldn't require any warning notices, bell-ringing, or crying of "unclean, unclean". >5) Was the book such a work of creative genious that it transcended > such considerations? No. I don't think a book ever transcends the considerations you apply when you read. If you mean "was it so good in other ways that these considerations are outweighed", that's for you to decide. Since you only read half of it, I guess for you it wasn't "great literature". I think it's Delany's worst book since babel-17. It preaches too much (the epilogue is particularly bad at this). Parts of it are brilliant, but overall I rate it lower than his other recent stuff (still worth reading though - I rate Delany pretty highly!) Try "Neveryona" for similar ideas done better, and with less gay content. You probably want to miss "Flight from Neveryon" though - it's much more explicit than "Stars in my Pocket ...". Dave Berry. CS postgrad, Univ. of Edinburgh ...mcvax!ukc!cstvax!db ------------------------------ From: ttidcc!hollombe@caip.rutgers.edu (The Polymath) Subject: Re: Overdrawn at the Memory Bank (also for J.B. Hunter) Date: 8 Jan 86 19:14:50 GMT pete@stc.UUCP writes: >A TV programme by this name is being shown on Channel 4 next >Saturday. I believe it originated in the US. > >2 questions:- > 1) Is it an adaptation of the John Varley story of the same > name? Yes. > 2) Will a John Varley fan (i.e. me) writhe, swear and > tear his hair out if he watches it? Probably. I'm also a Varley fan and I've seen the TV adaptation. In my opinion it definitely does not do justice to Varley's work. The general plot line is the same, in a vague sort of way, but many key points have been removed or drastically altered. Among other things, the entire society in which the story takes place has been transformed into a 1984ish dystopia that has no relation to Varley's universe. I don't remember many of the other alterations (it's been at least a year), but I do remember disliking the TV version. I even posted something here to that effect at the time. Jerry Hollombe Citicorp(+)TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA 90405 (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 86 9:14:19 EST From: "Daniel P. Dern" Subject: Tilting at Slants in Books Re the discussion of sexual slants, and covers disclaimers: There's a lot of things I wouldn't mind seeing disclaimers about on the bookcovers. I have a feeling we don't all have the same list in mind, however. I'm a lot less concerned about the topology of characters going at it, for example, than their motivations or methods; e.g., Delaney vs John Norman. Or the quality of the writing. Disclaimers I could see, personally: o WARNING: Part of a Series. o WARNING: Related stories but not really a novel. o WARNING: Completely unrelated stories; not a novel at all. o WARNING: Badly written. o WARNING: Old stories cleverly repackaged to look like a new book. o WARNING: Written by somebody who doesn't know any science o WARNING: Another Tolkein imitation o WARNING: Overly short manuscript padded using large type and lotsa graphics o If you like early Heinlein, you'll love this. o Caution: Features strong, sensible women o WARNING: Cowboys on Mars o Caution: You may not like this book, but that doesn't mean it's bad. etc. For an even more Delany recommendation, try HEAVENLY BREAKFAST, a comparatively short recounting of his days in the rock group/commune of the same name. You can see a lot of the sources for Dhalgren here. A clear, enjoyable book. (Note: I waded through SIMPLGOS, but don't anticipate trying it again, at least not this decade. There were a few interesting parts/ideas, but it was like trying to drive through traffic the day before Thanksgiving as the snow begins to deepen. Mind you, this is the opinion of somebody who rereads DHALGREN ever year or two. I think Delany isn't always sure whether he's trying to write the actual story, or make some esoteric first-derivative point via the text -- the NEVERYONIA books case in point. But hey, he's certainly trying for bigger targets.) Daniel Dern ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!oyster@caip.rutgers.edu (Vicious Oyster) Subject: Re: more sexual stuff Date: 8 Jan 86 18:33:33 GMT MRC@PANDA writes: >It's also somewhat out of context with reality; gays are only 15% >or so of the general population. Exclusively gay societies are >unlikely to exist because (in general) gays don't reproduce and >even when they do, 85% of the children turn out to be straight. But the 85% figure would only be true for predominantly heterosexual societies. I'd reckon that the reverse would be true for a gay society, what with social norms, etc. At any rate, anybody writing a book about a gay society had darn well better have an explanation for reproduction, be it sexual or whatever. > I was quite able to enjoy McCaffrey's dragonrider books, even >though most of the male dragonriders are (because of their dragon's >needs) bisexual. Perhaps some readers would have appreciated some >details about brown/green matings... Hmmm... I'll have to read those again. I didn't at all catch the implication that when dragons mated, the 'riders did also. Was I exceedingly obtuse both times I read the books, or did others also not make this connection/assumption? Joel ({allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster) P.S. Add me to the list of those who finished SIMPLGOS. I enjoyed it, but admit to not understanding all of it. I'm looking forward to the next book. ------------------------------ From: druri!dht@caip.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker) Subject: Description is necessary, even in science fiction Date: 8 Jan 86 19:36:12 GMT >. ".Which brings us back to Liz Lynn's work, specifically with >matters of sexuality. Too often she creates characters who are >almost smugly at peace with themselves. Who gives a damn? I don't >want to read about a happy homosexual, any more than I want to read >about a happy heterosexual--at least, I don't want to read about >their sex life if it's working fine. If there are no problems, why >bring it up? (And not just internal problems, of course. Problems >with outsiders or persecution or whatever count, but those also >have internal implications.) So if a character's sexuality is >important enough to bring it into the story, then it should AFFECT >the story importantly. This may be too rigorous a standard, of >course. Remember, I'm the guy who excises every shred of >description that isn't essential to the plot. You never even know >the color of ENDER WIGGINS' hair during two long novels. So I have >a bias against inclusion of gratuitous material of any type.)..." > > Orson Scott Card, reprinted via David Dalton Card glosses over what is so often lost in modern fiction, and modern science fiction particularly: the *lack* of description. It is important, in many novels, to get across atmosphere. You don't do this with dialogue, with narrative point-of-view, or with exposition (the bane of science fiction is the Expository Break). You do it with description. Otherwise, the writer has done little more than write a screenplay for a director to flesh out. Why did Tolstoy bother to describe Anna Karenina's eyes to us? Why did Melville describe Billy Budd in aching detail? Why did Dickens describe Uriah Heep down to the last disgusting quirk? It was, and is, important to be able to fully visualize an important character if for nothing else than to define them as real, living, flawed, human beings. So many modern novels barely pause to let the reader catch his breath - Luc Sante hit the nail on the head when he called it "word-processor style" - short paragraphs, inattention to previous detail, hurriedness, and callousness towards characters, even when sympathetically portrayed. It seems to be at the root, a response in print to America's increasing love affair with the television, the video recorder, and the movie. As we as a society cast off print and become visually and aurally oriented, we accept the language of film and television more readily than that of print (as McLuhan suggested). In other words, perhaps it is no longer necessary for most people to have a chair described to them, because the visual image of a chair is already very concrete and defined, and reinforced with daily viewing of chairs in all kinds of circumstances. People become more used to the hurried pace of visual media, and are bored with what once was considered adequate description in a novel, description which takes a second (at most) in a film. This is merely a progression, and not necessarily a bad one. But the problem is that when description is absolutely vital, it is wan, thin, and insubstantial. Mood and atmosphere can be communicated in a film without the viewer being consciously aware, without any time hardly being taken out from the story line at all - Hitchcock's threatening house in "Psycho", Capra's Main Street in "It's A Wonderful Life", Weir's barnbuilding in "Witness". A writer owes it to readers to establish such a mood and define things exactly in order not to cheat them of such resonance. Nowadays, our characters are defined by what they do, what they beleive in, and (if we are lucky) by what they think. We rarely get to see the look on the other person's face, furrowed in concentration, sweating a little underneath the eyes, with a strand of hair blowing in the slight breeze of a ship at anchor against the ebb tide. Our adjectives have been pared down, like reading a book from Orwell's society, everything simplified to "double-plus-ungood" from "ghastly" or "horrid" or "terrible". If langauge and vocabulary are not used, they atrophy and wither away. I wanted to know Ender's hair color, I wanted to know what his face looked like, what color his eyes were, what his sweat smelled like, I wanted him to be real and breathing, not an abstraction of the warrior-innocent, the child of war. This is all good and well in escapist, juvenile literature where people don't sweat and no one is ugly unless they're Bad Guys. In "Ender's Game" (the novella), Card gets away with this because children often don't recall such things as the color of someone's hair - or else they forget later on, as they grow older - and his story was of children, and could reasonably be told in a child-like manner as regards description. I think of Orwell, and his giant talent for description coupled with his sensitive social conscience, who described to us a society of blandness, of oppressive sameness, of subtle and dreary brutalization, and yet he made it vivid, and real, and powerful, visceral. You felt Winston facing the rats. Description, even when seemingly superfluous on first reading, is often the glue that holds a tale together, that keeps the authorial intent clear and apparent without being overbearing. You can only talk of ideas for so long, and then it gets pedantic. Just as you can only describe trees for so long and get boring. In a short story, the ruthless elimination of detail is often necessary, but too many of our novels read like long short stories. Women are described as being beautiful, without our being able to form our own opinion of beauty directed, of course, by the author's description. This casting-off of description often leads authors into the wasteland of "idea literature", without being able to make it real. An author must be able to make his readers feel pain, and failure, and success, and hatred and joy and the gamut of human emotion, and description is the key to this, even when it seems unnecessary. For all his faults, Hunter Thompson has this gift of description, and is successful because of this, no matter how warped and twisted his descriptions are, they taste of the real because he *bothers* to describe things to us. You see, if I say something is blood red, and one hundred pages on it is purple, that requires tedious re-reading. If I never describe it at all, I have less work to do. And I have accomplished less, and in some sense I have failed because I have left too much up to the reader's imagination, and not given him the resonance and meaning that great description can do. To say something is blood red is to bring up images of death, pain, and war. To say that it is merely red is to leave the image up to the reader, or to deny that it has any meaning whatsoever, even when it might. Our adjectives are leaving us, slowly and surely, and they sail away on a rusty freighter flying a plague flag, out of the dying port of a nation conquered one hundred years ago in a horrible war of attrition and starvation, sailing into a polluted sunset over an oily sea. Davis Tucker ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Jan 86 1408-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #12 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 12 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 12 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Chalker & Donaldson & Geston & Lee & LeGuin, Films - Lensman, Television - Overdrawn at the Memory Bank (2 msgs) Miscellaneous - Sex in SF (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jhunix!ecf_awjb@caip.rutgers.edu (William J. Bogstad) Subject: Piers Anthony (comment on his trilogies) Date: 9 Jan 86 06:30:06 GMT I have read both Fantasy and Science Fiction by Piers Anthony and have discovered something that bothers me. In general, I find that I enjoy his first work in a series, but the following works are much less enjoyable then the first. In some cases, the subsequent works appear to be literary clones of the first with the same basic plot and character types. I realize that latter works in a series often fall prey to this problem, but wondered if anyone else finds Piers Anthony to be particularly prone to this problem. Bill Bogstad bogstad@hopkins-eecs.bravo.arpa seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!aplcen!jhunix!ecf_awjb ------------------------------ From: ut-ngp!stacie@caip.rutgers.edu (Stacie McGill) Subject: Identity Matrix Date: 9 Jan 86 18:29:30 GMT I just started "Identity Matrix" by Jack L. Chalker having enjoyed other of his books. Chapter One has a glaring typo that I just had to note here, "The girl there is the son of a Big Shot.." I mean really. All this time and I thought a girl was considered a daughter. Of course with Chalker you never know. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 86 11:25 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant > Does anyone know if there is ever going to be a seventh book in the > Thomas Covenant series...? God, I hope not. I think Donaldson has already beat this horse to death. Don't get me wrong, though. I really liked the first trilogy. I never finished the second trilogy. I would like Donaldson to write more stories based in the Land, or other areas in this world, but I hope he writes about some other era and some other characters. How about the story of Berek Halfhand, or other pre-history. I, for one, would like to see more of the giants. Maybe, tell the story of their journey to the Land. Brett Slocum (Slocum\@HI-MULTICS) ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 10 Jan 1986 04:05:23-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Mark Geston > From: redford%jeremy.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (John Redford) > Does anyone know anything about Geston himself? I've never seen > him at cons. According to Robert Reginald's SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY LITERATURE, VOLUME 2: CONTEMPORARY SCIENCE FICTION AUTHORS II (Detroit: Gale, 1979), Geston is an attorney in Boise, Idaho. His interests are listed as being "skiing, history, sick humor, and Coors." --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 86 01:18:38 pst From: stever@cit-vlsi.ARPA (Steve Rabin ) (to George Robbins): I agree with you that "Days of Grass" was lousy by Tanith Lee standards. Let me recommend several of her better books instead: "Day by Night" - similar to, yet different from, Zelazny's "Jack of Shadows". (thanks dsf) "Electric Forrest" - The story of a freak who is so ugly that everyone calls her by the name "Ugly", and of an unusually handsome scientist who wants a volunteer for an experiment.. "To Kill The Dead" - The best ghost story I've ever read. This is Lee's best book. Incidentally, the title "Days of Grass" comes from the Bible, and is the title of many other works, including a really fantastic short story by RA Lafferty (in "Ringing Changes"). s ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jan 86 08:11 PST From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: LeGuin's Always Coming Home *Mild Spoilers of content (though not of plot) follow* A comment in a posting on another subject prompted me to tell of my impression of LeGuin's latest novel, "Always Coming Home". From the cover blurbs and the admittedly brief mention of the book in the media, I was lead to believe that this was LeGuin's greatest novel - her best work of all time. I'm sorry, but I was disappointed. First, the book is not really a novel. As is explained in the Introduction, the book is a future archaeology. There is one story that is the largest part of the book, and by itself it would make a short novel or a novella. However, the book also includes other material to round out the picture of the future society that is its main focus. There is poetry, and there are descriptions of many facets of the society, including naming conventions, music, artwork, and technology. And yes, this is the book that comes with a cassette tape including examples of the music and speech described in the book. The fact that the book was not really a novel was not really a problem. For the most part LeGuin has done her job well, as everything is well-worked out, consistent, and interesting. The main problem is that it feels as though one is reading an editorial in the newspaper. LeGuin has created a Utopia, and in describing it proceeds to critique modern civilization quite severely. The heavy-handed social commentary was too much for me; I do not mind criticism of society, or books with a MESSAGE, but this was too much. As a matter of fact, I agree with much of what she has to say - I just don't like the way she says it. The non-novel aspects of the book would have made good background for LeGuin to use in writing a number of stories. However, there are a number of short sections wherein LeGuin (calling herself Pandora) addresses the reader directly. This is a stylistic device that I could have done without. Also, I found the tape recording boring and artificial sounding. To situate my opinions, I will say that I enjoyed the Earthsea trilogy immensely, and that I found Malfarena interesting if a bit dry. I could not stomach The Disposessed at all. So, the end result is that I do not recommend this book. Dave PS If someone has a more favorable opinion of this book, I would like to see it. ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_acss@caip.rutgers.edu (C Sue Shambaugh) Subject: Re: Lensman in Video Date: 8 Jan 86 15:08:28 GMT The _Lensman_ movie was released in theaters in Japan in August of 1984, and was subsequently released for purchase on videotape. A set of three comicbooks was printed, following the movie action step-for-step, by Kodansha comics company, and is only available in Japanese. Furthermore, following the Japanese tradition of milking a product for all it's worth, a teevee series was created and released last spring, along with the inevitable models, toys, and action figures! The television series, however, followed the plot of the book _Galactic_Patrol_, and was fairly accurate, as it included Mentor et al. Those interested in obtaining the comicbooks, translations of the movie/comicbooks, or copies (VHS or BETA) of the movie or the television series, please write to me at the address below, and we'll discuss possibilities! FIFTH AMENDMENT DISCLAIMER: I do not engage in the illegal disribution of copyrighted materials. All translations are strictly "my own best interpretation" and not intended to be definitive movie scripts. Sue Shambaugh 221 St. Paul Baltimore, MD 21218 ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_adlk@caip.rutgers.edu (Darren Lee Kadish) Subject: Re: Overdrawn at the Memory Bank Date: 8 Jan 86 20:49:43 GMT I saw that movie on PBS one night. Now I have never read the story, but it is the one by Varley, who incidently did the screenplay (I think). The production was a little cheap( a la PBS) but overall the show was excellent! Darren Kadish ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 86 04:10:59 est From: ringwld!jmturn%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa Subject: Overdrawn at the Memory Bank Oh it's bad. Oh God, it's bad. It stinks more than a 2-day old fish. All the interesting details from the story have been diked out and replaced with a straight "man against giant corporation" story. A great deal of the action takes place inside the set to Casablanca, which is a main fixation of Finagle (Raoul Julia). In fact, calling up said movie on his video display instead of doing work is what gets him sent to Disneyland Kenya. Sound like the story? I think not... Gone is Finagle's accelerated computer course, "accidents" with the main computer, etc. DON'T WATCH THIS MOVIE. And there's no spoiler warning on this 'cause you can't spoil crap. James Turner ARPA ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA decvax \ sri-unix \ UUCP !cca!ringwld!jmturn ima / linus / MAIL 329 Ward Street; Newton, MA 02159 ------------------------------ From: cstvax!db@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Berry) Subject: Re: Sexual Slant in Novels - "Stars in My Pocket..." Date: 6 Jan 86 15:41:32 GMT rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) writes: >Disclosing sexual bias in a book? Advertising its sexuality? Hey, >what is this? [...] Apply any of these recommendations to books >"slanted" to heterosexuality (god forbid!); the result would be >clearly perceived as off the wall, AND obnoxious by more than a few >readers. Too right. >Why do publishers have any economic interest in "advertising" the >book's sexuality? They'd probably lose money if they adopted such >a policy. Finally, it betrays a lack of knowledge of publishing: >publishers are legally free to put anything they like on book >covers; not even the author has ANY control over what goes on them. >The disclaimers being suggested are not only utterly irrelevant to >publishing practices, they imply a warped kind of public service at >odds with what publishing houses see as effective and appropriate >cover advertising. What the @#$! has the current legal position in the USA got to do with what *should* be the case? The guy doesn't have a lack of knowledge about publishing, he obviously knows people CAN do this. He's asking if a) he was deceived (I don't think so) b) publishers *should* be allowed to deceive (I don't think this, either) >Given the superficiality of many readers' aims, positive deception >is valuable in LURING readers into buying and reading books. Think >of how many of the classics of world literature have to be >"marketed" to get people to consider looking at them at all. Marketing is one thing, deception is another. I don't think the case under discussion involves deception, but I'd be really pissed off if I spent money on something that promised to be one thing and didn't deliver. >Nowadays, the way to do it is to turn the book into a teleplay for >Masterpiece Theater with lots of production value and famous >actors. If they can get it past the censors. Very few gay plays make it onto British television. Even Channel 4 only gets as far as showing some existing gay films. >So, since when has honesty been a policy in publishing? Why should >it be? Who wants it to be (certainly not prospective readers!)? The original poster, and I (both prospective readers). Dave Berry. CS postgrad, Univ. of Edinburgh ...mcvax!ukc!cstvax!db ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_adlk@caip.rutgers.edu (Darren Lee Kadish) Subject: Re: Sex in books Date: 8 Jan 86 20:56:56 GMT Have you looked at the paperback section of any bookstore...or any foodstore for that matter? Take a close look. Pick up a book. Look at the cover. What do you see? Open the book. Any page. Read a page. What does it say? My point is that today's literature is overwhelmingly sexually oriented. Things that would have been scandalous ten years ago are commonplace. Some of these books make Peyton Place look like a G rated movie. Don't blame the Science fictioon writers. They are just catering to the demands of the public (something all writers must do if they like to eat.) You may not personally approve, so don't read their books, but you may miss some good science fiction if you are unwilling to wade through a little gratuitous sex. It won't kill you you know :-) Darren Kadish ------------------------------ From: birtch!oleg@caip.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev) Subject: Re: Should book ads disclose sexual slant? Date: 7 Jan 86 21:27:33 GMT oliver@unc.UUCP (Bill Oliver) writes: >oleg@birtch.UUCP (Oleg Kiselev [ME] ) writes: >>>2) Should it make any difference? In other words, should it have >>> mattered to me? >>I don't see why... Sex is sex.... > >As a case in point, all sex is not just sex. Whether it be >heterosexual(1), homosexual(2), or autoerotic(3), there are a wide >class of sexual activities which either represent profound >emotional disease or are simply evil. To fear to express >disapproval of an act for fear of appearing intolerant is a form of >moral cowardice. We are talking of fairly staright forward gay sex here - NOT anything "EVIL" or emotionally sick ( unles you call homosexuality and autoeroticism "SICK" and/or "EVIL"). If the characters in the book are gay - I'd expect them to practice gay sex. If the characters in the book are slimy slugs - I expect THEIR sexual practices to be slimy slug ones. If the book unnecessarily overemphasizes the erotic and sexual aspects and becomes pornographic - that's one thing. If the author has included an erotic scene as a means to better define the characters and their relationships - that's a totally different situation. >[ A LENGTHY PARABLE TO SHOW THAT THE ***REVIEW*** SHOULD HAVE >MENTIONED ] [ THE HOMOSEXUAL SLANT OF THE BOOK ] It is not your >responsibility to keep tabs on the sexual proclivities of all those >who put pen to paper. An adequate book review should have >reflected the contents of the book. It's NOT book review we are talking about - it's the blurbs on the cover and the back of the book.( OR *WAS* it a review ? If it was - ignore this paragraph) The cover blurbs usually give you a GENERAL idea about the GENERAL direction of the book. Since I have learned to read English (I still have not learned to write ;-) I have bought close to a dosen books based on their cover blurbs and a quick scan of the writing style - and found them very dissatisfying and boring to the point where I could not bring myself to finish them. Out of 250-300 books - that's not a bad ratio! Those WERE paperbacks, tho'. If they were hardcover editions that I have payed $14-$18 for - I'd be upset too.... >To claim that an adequate book review is censorship is to argue >that we should buy and read books randomly - a waste of time, >effort, and money. I agree to some extend - but who's responsibility is it to seek out the reviews? The reader's or the book distributor's? Adequate book review is a great thing. Expecting an in-depth review from a short blurb is absurd. Most often the book and record clubs grace only the "selection of the month" items with reviews. (I could be wrong - I have not joined ALL the clubs out there :-) >>>5) Was the book such a work of creative genious that it >>> transcended such considerations? >>Don't know, have not read it (yet?). > >A book rarely transcends its content. HUH? Tell that to the readers of the Bible - it has a few VERY graphic sex scenes in it ( and a large number of mass slaughter and mayhem scenes). Then again, on THIS point I ***AGREE*** with you. Oleg Kiselev. ...!{trwrb|scgvaxd}!felix!birtch!oleg ...!{ihnp4|randvax}!ucla-cs!uclapic!oac6!oleg ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Jan 86 1406-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #13 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 14 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 13 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & LeGuin & Lustbader & Story Request & Two Reviews, Films - Bladerunner & Klaus Kinski & Lensman, Radio - Radio Drama Ideas, Miscellaneous - Children Believing What They See & Sex in SF & Waves in SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Anthony Date: 6 Jan 86 13:57:40 GMT grr@unirot.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: >I can't be sure, since I decided quite a while ago that Anthony >seems to have the same disease as Farmer, ie spewing endlessly >while never getting beyond being cute and/or clever. Not quite; _On a Pale Horse_ has some real meat to it. Books 2 and 3 in that series don't, however. I'll still read the last two in hopes that there is something there, but I'm prepared for the worst. Frank Adams ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jan 86 11:31 PST From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: OOPS - previous message I goofed. I said that I couldn't stomach The Dispossessed. I meant to say that I didn't like The Left Hand Of Darkness. I am confused because someone was just recently recommending The Dispossessed to me; I haven't read the Dispossessed yet. Sorry, Dave ------------------------------ From: geowhiz!schuh@caip.rutgers.edu (David Schuh) Subject: Sunset Warrior Tril & slightly re: Feminism & SF Date: 10 Jan 86 00:16:24 GMT Speaking of Lustbader (Eric Von Lustbader I believe), How many of you have read the _Sunset Warrior_ Trilogy & _Beneath an Opal Moon_. Despite some obtuseness with the dolman at the end of the last book (of the trilogy) which I didn't quite understand I quite enjoyed these, there are powerfull women characters, just enough eroticism to make it interesting (not overbearing), good fighting, Oriental settings, and an interesting world make this series one of my favorites. I highly recommend it. Any others? *** Slight spoiler *** o How was Friedal actually able to find/follow Rhonin in the feluca. o What did Rhonin's feluca collide with? (Could it really have been Friedal's feluca?) o What was the purpose of the whole scene with Rhonin and Moichi after the ship reck, on the Island with XXXXXX (some weird names I cant remember). Maybe later some more Qs will come to me. Again I recommend these books. One of my favorite pastimes when I read them is trying to decide which parts of the real Earth match the book's geography. Also to anyone who has read his other stuff also, _Ninja_ etc... is it any good to an Sf lover, no romances please I can't stand too much mush. dave schuh !uwvax!geowhiz!schuh ------------------------------ From: ukc!djw1@caip.rutgers.edu (D.J.Webb) Subject: Request for story title. Date: 10 Jan 86 11:52:37 GMT Could anyone provide me with the author and title of an sf story concerning the climbing of a 200,000 ft mountain which turns out to have a lift up the centre of it? The name of the mountain was Purgatory, I think. Please reply by mail to save cluttering up the net. Thanks - Dave. ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!srt@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: _Wizard of the Pigeons_ and new Tepper book Date: 9 Jan 86 20:04:01 GMT Megan Lindholm, _Wizard of the Pigeons_, Ace Fantasy, ISBN 0-441-89467-4 Sheri S. Tepper, _Marianne, the Magus and the Manticore_, Ace Fantasy, ISBN 0-441-51944-X I'm a fan of Tepper, so I bought her latest book despite the annoying cover and back cover blurbs. The cover has a rather lurid painting of a woman on the back of a Chimera and the back cover blurb is an annoying analgram of the plot. You can safely ignore both. (* slight spoiler -- introduction to the plot *) The story itself is fascinating. I was glued to the book from the start till nearly the end. Marianne is a graduate student in ethnology who discovers that she is related to the ruling family of a small European country when the Prime Minister of the country arrives to give a lecture at her college. Though shy of personal relationships, she warms to him. He is Makr Ahvel, a Magus, and when he visits her apartment he finds the gifts she has recently received from her half-brother ominous. Taken as a whole they represent a powerful malign enchantment. Startled to find this kind of thing, Makr Ahvel becomes more involved with the girl and together they are drawn into false worlds and strange happenings. My only objections to this excellent book are the packaging, which I've already put down, and the ending, which like so much of the fantasy printed today, has sequel written all over it. The Mindholm book I bought because of Steven Brust's recommendation: "The blend of action and sensitivity that I've come to expect from Ms. Lindholm and much more. Beauty, terror, and wonder. This is a truly excellent book." I couldn't agree more. I like the premise, too, which is that some of the bums you see around the city are actually wizards of different sorts, who make their lives in other ways, ways less congenial to modern life. The title character is one such person. His gift is to be able to always give a truthful answer to questions put to him. Not always a useful gift. But like all magic, it has its rules and limitations. Soon the Wizard finds his rules being broken, and he loses his magic, existing in a shadowy realm between worlds while the wizards and the modern day world fight for his identity. Another excellent book. Read these two books and see _Brazil_ for a wonderful (but sometimes disturbing) weekend of alternate views of reality. Scott R. Turner ARPA: (now) srt@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA (soon) srt@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU UUCP: ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt FISHNET: ...!{flounder,crappie,flipper}!srt@fishnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ From: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu (Michaelntz) Subject: Re: SF movies [was Re: Emeny Mine] Date: 11 Jan 86 06:11:00 GMT I know this note and its responses are obsolete but Blade Runner is clearly the greatest science fiction film ever, it must be (and is) better than the novel, though P.K. Dick's Do_Androids_Dream_Of_ Electric_Sheep? has to be nominated for best SF book title honors. Anyway.... Mike Krantz ------------------------------ From: im4u!jsq@caip.rutgers.edu (John Quarterman) Subject: Re: Klaus Kinski Date: 12 Jan 86 01:43:18 GMT Wasn't Klaus Kinski also the protagonist of both "Fitzcaraldo" and "Aguirre, the Wrath of God", both set in the Amazon basin, both about (quite different) historical characters, and possibly both directed by Werner Herzog? John Quarterman, UUCP: {gatech,harvard,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq ARPA Internet and CSNET: jsq@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU, jsq@sally.UTEXAS.EDU ------------------------------ From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Three queries answered Date: 10 Jan 86 15:46:20 GMT >From: Dave Platt >Andrew Jonathan Fine asked whether the Lensman series might be >translated into a series of movies, or comics. I understand that >an animated version of The Lensman has already been produced in >Japan; I believe that a Japanese-language version with English >subtitles has seen some limited distribution here in the U.S., but >it's probably pretty difficult to find. I haven't seen any of it >myself, but it was mentioned at an animated-film screening I >attended at A Change of Hobbit in LA about a year ago. Check with >your local comic/animated fan club... they might be able to give >you some leads. I *have* seen it. The animation was quite good(most Japanese animation is), but a Doc Smith fan probably will not like the screenplay. Numerous changes were made to the concept. The Arisians are played down, almost left out entirely. Kimball Kinnison does not start out at the Patrol Academy, he is the son of a farmer who is killed by the Boskonians and he takes off to get revenge(sort of like Luke Skywalker). And the spaceships are *not* round/tear-drop shaped. The big dreadnaught(i can't remember the name) is shaped like a giant tuning fork! And as for the nurse(?Clarissa), she is no longer the fiesty, self-sufficient, independent woman of the books, she has been turned into a standard helpless female in distress type(all screams and such drek). If you watch it as something unrelated to the Lensmen series it is probably a fairly decent adventure in the Star Wars class, though still not great. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ARPA: ttidca!psivax!friesen@rand-unix.arpa ------------------------------ From: geowhiz!schuh@caip.rutgers.edu (David Schuh) Subject: Radio Drama Date: 10 Jan 86 16:14:08 GMT Hello netters: Having just had some really rotten kinds of life experiences lately, I must lift myself from depression. Hence.... listening to NPR radio) has been to produce a radio drama. Well, Now I intend to. I have several ideas I'd like to bounce off those of you might have the same interests. 1) What do you think of a "long distance production" ie. Radio drama produced at long distance. The logistics are sticky but I believe possible. I'll discuss particulars only if people are interested. Although even if what I have in mind, a "networked production" of radio drama (:-), is not feasable, other questions here may interest you. 2) Does anyone have any ideas for a short story (preferably Sf) to produce. Once I had thought to do _Who Goes There_ (Campbell), after the movie people told me flat out NO. I searched for others, currently _The Devil You Don't_ (Kieth Laumer) is my fav, however I have not contacted him or his agents yet. Ideally something in the public domain, or specially written would be nice as then royalties are avoided. Are there any scenarists out there willing to try? 3) The stories should be suitable for radio adaption, To get a feel for this listen to some of the stories on NPR like Hitchhiker's Guide, Star Wars, Nightfall, etc... 4) Since I'm cross posting this to Star Trek, what do you trekkies know about _Star Trek_ rights. An idea that just hit me this morning was that it would be nice to hear Star Trek adapted like Star wars was (new stories of course). Perhaps this is a ridiculous notion as I'm sure Shatner, Nemoy, Kelly, wouldn't be involved, would it still be Star Trek without them? What legalistic problems exist? Perhaps you have ideas about this or other series that could be adapted, (Conan comes to mind). 5) On legalities, if for instance someone were to write a Star Trek scenario, produced, and broadcast it would there be trouble? ie is the world of Star Trek all sewn up? 6) Ideally If this ever gets off the ground whether I do it locally or long distance (really, I've got ideas that would probably work) I would like to give it to NPR for distribution, Wow national fame for those involved. Well are there any closet radio actors out there? Anybody interested? Send mail or even discuss on the net although I'm not sure what group to discuss this on. This message is cross posted on net.sf-lovers, net.startrek and net.movies (maybe a mistake) no flames please. I think this could work. Thanks for your time (and hopefully interest) david schuh 521 W. Doty st. #16 Madison, Wi. 53703 608- 251-0014 !uwvax!geowhiz!schuh ------------------------------ From: oliven!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barbara Jernigan) Subject: Re: Children believing what they see on TV Date: 8 Jan 86 23:12:35 GMT > "Children who are affected by violence on television have > parents who act like television characters" -- David Byrne I think this is awfully simplistic -- perhaps it is a reaction to the number of postings on the subject. For my own two cents, I was listening to an interview of one of the child-actors of *Danger Bay* (on the Disney Channel), and he said something to the extent of: When I watch violent shows, I feel paranoid, like life is dangerous and requires violent solutions. From the mouths of babes.... We cannot guess how and how much violent shows REALLY affect us and our children. Admittedly, I've been watching James Bond flicks for what seems forever, and consider myself to be a well-adjusted adult. I do have rather skeptical feelings toward 'Peace On Earth', however. Is this because I understand the human condition? Or is my subconscious speaking what it HAS BEEN TAUGHT TO SAY? It is troubling -- to me at least. Barb ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: sexual slant in SF books Date: 9 Jan 86 15:49:25 GMT MRC@PANDA writes: > Come now. Many people who read SF like to envision themselves >in the story. It's difficult to do so if all the characters engage >in sexual practices the reader finds repulsive.... > I for one would not knowingly buy an SF book that had >graphic sexual contents that was exclusively gay. As you'll recall, the book that started this discussion off was "Stars In My Pocket Like Grains Of Sand." I fail to see where the sex in SIMPLGOS is graphic enough to offend anyone but a Boston bluenose. And if you limit yourself to books and stories that contain an unflawed two-dimensional character you can identify with, you're going to eliminate 90% of the world's literature from your experience. Although there are many Walter Mittys out there who read SF for escapism, there are also many of us who read it for other reasons. As to 'repulsive practices,' SF is full of 'em. There's a story (mentioned briefly, I think, in this group last year) about aliens who have pseudoheads at the nether end of their digestive tracts and whose culture centers around excrement. Is this repulsive enough to keep you from reading the book on a friend's recommendation? And should the jacket of such a group contain the warning Caution: this book contains scenes of alien defecation that some people might find offensive Bill Ingogly ;-) ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Waves in science fiction. Date: 9 Jan 86 22:12:12 GMT abh6509@ritcv.UUCP (Andrew) writes: [Me] >>... Thus the famous painting (was it >>by Man Ray?) of the pipe (smoking) labelled "ce n'est pas une pipe" Someone pointed out to me that this painting was by Magritte. >Consider works like A. E. Van Vogt's Universe Maker, Pendulum, The >Reflected Men - these have a dreamy-strangeness. He used to wake up >in the middle of the night to add plot details. > >Consider Philip Dick's Martian Time Slip. Although one could argue >that he was intending a description of neurosis or schizophrenia, I >thought it had definite surrealistic overtones. Sure. I'm not denying SF authors have used surrealistic techniques or that their works may have surrealistic overtones. My comments were directed at Mark Aden Poling's comment that surrealism somehow is related to the New Wave's attempt to inject humanism into SF back in the '60s: >>>... The New Wave seems in respect to have been an attempt to >>>bring human values and attitudes into what had previously been >>>very Machine oriented fiction. This of course meant that >>>surrealism was prevalent in much of the "serious" SF published >>>then. I still fail to see what human values and attitudes have to do with surrealistic techniques. >I think you are correct in stating that there hasn't been any >intentional movement of surrealistic writing. But then what >movements are intentional? Lots of them. The original Surrealists and Dadaists consciously created their movements, for example. There's even a 'Surrealist Manifesto,' I believe. Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Jan 86 1426-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #14 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 14 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 14 Today's Topics: Books - Bradley (2 msgs) & Dick & Laumer (2 msgs), Films - Max 404, Miscellaneous - Descriptions (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cca!penny@caip.rutgers.edu (Penny Rheingans) Subject: Re: Title Request - The Darkover Novels Date: 10 Jan 86 17:36:54 GMT > From: XBR1YD22%DDATHD21.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (YD22@BR1.THDNET) > Could anybody supply a list of all the Darkover Novels by > Marion Zimmer Bradley? I'd like to read more of them. Thank you > very much. I really did try to respond by mail. Failing that I'm going to commit the just-barely-pardonable offense of responding to the net. I haven't the novels with me so this response is off the top of my head. Accordingly it's entirely possible I've forgotten a few. This list is roughly chronological by Darkover history (though my memory's foggy in a few places. Here goes: Darkover Landfall Storm Queen Hawkmistress Two to Conquer Shattered Chains (both before and after The Spell Sword) The Spell Sword Forbidden Tower Thendara House City of Sorcery Star of Danger Winds of Darkover Bloody Sun Heritage of Hastur Sharra's Exile (extensive rewrite of The Sword of Aldones) The Planet Savers The World Wreckers There are also a couple of collections of short stories about Darkover written by others and editted by MZB (she includes a couple of her own stories with each book). These are: The Keeper's Price Sword of Choas Free Amazons of Darkover Enjoy! Penny Rheingans ------------------------------ From: reed!ellen@caip.rutgers.edu (Ellen Eades) Subject: Re: Title Request - The Darkover Novels Date: 10 Jan 86 21:10:49 GMT Okay, friends, here it is: The works of Marion Zimmer Bradley. I am going to post this because I'm not sure how to usemail to West Germany (Sorry, Ralf) and because it's been a few months since I first posted it. Enjoy. Ellen Eades (tektronix!reed!ellen) In order of publication: Darkovan chronology: Planet Savers, 1962 Darkover Landfall Sword of Aldones, 1962 Stormqueen! Bloody Sun, 1964 Two to Conquer Star of Danger, 1966 Hawkmistress! Winds of Darkover, 1970 Shattered Chain (part 1) World Wreckers, 1971 Spell Sword Darkover Landfall, 1972 Forbidden Tower Spell Sword, 1972 Shattered Chain (part 2) Heritage of Hastur, 1975 Thendara House Shattered Chain, 1976 City of Sorcery Forbidden Tower, 1977 Star of Danger Stormqueen!, 1978 Winds of Darkover Bloody Sun (rewrite), 1979 Bloody Sun Two to Conquer, 1980 Heritage of Hastur Keeper's Price*, 1980 Planet Savers Sharra's Exile, 1981 Sharra's Exile/Sword of Aldones% Sword of Chaos*, 1982 World Wreckers Hawkmistress!, 1982 Return to Darkover Thendara House, 1983 City of Sorcery, 1984 Return to Darkover, (scheduled release 1986) *Keeper's Price & Sword of Chaos are short story anthologies by Bradley and others, chosen by MZB to be nearest to her personal view of Darkover & thus "authentic." %Sharra's Exile is a rewrite of Sword of Aldones and thus occupies the same chronological niche. Mini-series or direct sequels to one another: Spell Sword/Forbidden Tower/Bloody Sun (rewrite) Shattered Chain/Thendara House/City of Sorcery Heritage of Hastur/Sharra's Exile/Return to Darkover Non-Darkover science fiction: Fantasy: Seven from the Stars, 1957 Dark Satanic, 1972 The Door Through Space, 1961 In the Steps of the Master, 1973 Falcons of Narabedla, 1964 Drums of Darkness, 1976 The Brass Dragon, 1970 House Between the Worlds, 1980 Colors of Space, 1974 Web of Light, 1982 Endless Voyage, 1975 Web of Darkness, 1983 Endless Universe*, 1979 The Inheritor, 1984 Hunters of the Red Moon, 1975 Night's Daughter, 1985 The Survivors**, 1979 The Ruins of Isis, 1979 Survey Ship, 1980 *Endless Universe same as Endless Voyage plus two more novelettes about the Explorers **Survivors is sequel to Hunters of the Red Moon. Mainstream: The Catch Trap, 1979 The Mists of Avalon, 1983 Anthologies: Dark Intruder & Other Stories, 1964 Greyhaven, 1983 Sword & Sorceress, 1984 Sword & Sorceress v. 2, 1985 Gothics: Castle Terror, 1965 Souvenir of Monique, 1967 Bluebeard's Daughter, 1968 Can Ellen Be Saved?, pub. date unknown There is also a series of new fan activity centering around the Darkover universe. These are the addresses that I have: (PLEASE ENCLOSE A SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE) For "Relays," a Darkover newsletter: Paella n'ha Mhari P.O. box 2048 Sacramento, CA 95810 Free Amazon newsletter: Tess Kolney 2114 James Avenue Minneapolis, MN 55411 Council Lists (Darkover fans in your area) Ambria Ridenow P.O. Box 915 Felton, CA 95018 Contes de Cottman IV (fiction fanzine) Lynn Holdom P.O. Box 5 Pompton Lakes, NJ o7442 Darkovan Dictionary/Language John Shimwell 407 Clayton St. San Francisco, CA 94117 There are two annual USA Darkover conventions: Grand Council Meeting (East Coast) Fantasy Worlds Festival (West Coast) tektronix!reed!ellen ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jan 86 02:41:57 pst From: stever@cit-vlsi.ARPA (Steve Rabin ) Subject: message automata conspiracy Hank Buurman (ihnp4!tektronix!dadlac!hankb) writes > "Blade Runner" (was) better than P.K. Dick's "Do Androids Dream > of Electric Sheep." I beg to disagree. The first half of the movie was a "period" detective story, with soppy music and lots of fog to cover cheap models and cheezy graphics. Many characters were removed or inserted, and the subplots surrounding the bladerunner's home, wife and ewe were entirely omitted. Dick does so many wonderful things in his books that no movie could adequately express them all. This movie solved the dilemma by not expressing any of them. Flash back to your childhood - the small town you grew up in, and realize that it does not exist, never existed, except perhaps in your head. Call your high school sweetheart, and ask her if she remembers - you may be surprised. Perhaps you are in fact, one of those USENET message automata - monitoring the network, emitting stochastic fragments from time to time when real traffic is low. Homeostatic entities of uncertain origin, but growing ever more numerous (in places like net.unix where they flourish). Was there ever a real Hank Buurman? And if so what have you done with him? > Do you, as a reader, like straight or gay sex in your SF? Yes I do. I like strong writing which shakes the foundations of my preconceptions, and emotions of love/need/desire/loneliness do that to me. Theodore Sturgeon does this exceedingly well. Check out "The Synthetic Man" or "More Than Human". Steve ------------------------------ From: randvax!jim@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gillogly) Subject: Rogue Bolo? Date: 9 Jan 86 17:21:45 GMT There's a freshly printed book on the stands by Keith Laumer. I think it's called "Rogue Bolo". Unfortunately it's published by either Jim Baen or TOR books (I have them in the same slimy mental category), each of whom has nailed me with reprints under new names. For example, TOR now has an Imperium book out which, looking carefully, is a reprint of two previous Imperium books. Rather than let them do it to me again, let me ask someone who's already been nailed: is this a new book? If so, is it up to his previous Bolo efforts (i.e. an order of magnitude better than Star Colony)? Thanks... Jim Gillogly {decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim jim@rand-unix.arpa ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!markb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar) Subject: Re: Rogue Bolo? Date: 10 Jan 86 19:23:35 GMT This novel is either a sequel to or a complete rewrite of the short BOLO story "Fieldtest" to be found in the original BOLO collection. Some of the characters are the same, the beginning is pretty much the same, but the main story is very different. Also included at the end is a never before published BOLO story. Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb ------------------------------ Date: Sun 12 Jan 86 17:08:44-PST From: Mark Feber Subject: max 404 Max 404 was played by Don Opper, one of the film's (Android) co-scriptors. At the showing at Filmex 83 (Los Angeles Film Exposition) he was there and stood up to give a rather stiff bow at the end of the film. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jan 86 17:37:16 PST From: woody%Romeo@Hamlet.Caltech.Edu Subject: Re: Descriptions in Books Bravo, Davis Tucker. After reading his thought provoking essay on description, I slowly climbed out of my chair, crossed the cluttered hovel that is my home, and pulled some of the dust covered books from the makeshift shelf where they rest. Of the tattered, dogeared books which I love and re-read the most, not a one lack the element of description so important to conveying an interesting (or not so interesting) idea into a very interesting story. Many years ago, I took a class on filmmaking. The important element of creating a film from a book is reducing the essence of the book to fit in the rather short length of time the movie must take place in. This is done by taking rather lengthy descriptions and reducing them to the appropriate props in the appropriate backdrops, with appropriately dressed people doing the appropriate action. And this works very well in motion picture. But not in books! When a woman is described in a screen play as "beautiful", you ask Casting for a lot of beautiful women and the author looks over all of them, until he finds the one who is "perfect". But when you say "beautiful" in a book without any other description, the author has one picture in mind, the reader cannot help but form another picture, and communication is lost. The author loses control over his story. Instead of telling us stories about giants and armies marching across blood-stained fields or of gleaming spaceships racing across a starry sky, the storyteller is doing nothing except putting words on paper for money. Ideas are easy. Just sitting here I can daydream hours on end about worlds and universes. How about a world where the Cold War has lasted long enough that divergent evolution causes the creation of two species of man? Or a world where man was created as an accidental mutation in the genetics laboratory of Neanderthals? Or even the old standby, life after nuclear war? See? Ideas are very easy. Plots are almost as easy, too. But true story writing, putting words on paper which describes to aching detail the action of the men in this world trying to achieve their goals; turning a "beautiful woman" into a five foot two, red haired beauty with soft green eyes, full lips, and a passion for abstract geometry; these acts take the talent of a professional. William Woody NETWORK: WOODY@ROMEO US MAIL: 1-54 Lloyd, Caltech Pasadena, CA 91126 ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Replay to Davis Tucker re: adjectives Date: 10 Jan 86 15:45:12 GMT Davis, I think you are wildly and radically off the mark here. A character is exactly what they do and what they think, and unless their appearance affects that in some important way, it doesn't belong in a novel. Furthermore, I think the examples you have chosen support my point: Tolstoy described Anya's eyes to us simply because it was important for us to be (in some sense) in love with her physical appearance ourselves -- otherwise we won't understand what happens later. Similarly with Billy Budd: we have to get at his innocence somehow -- since Melville was not working in any omnipotent or semi-omnipotent viewpoint, he chose to make this clear to us by Billy's physical appearance. I agree with you that being able to clearly understand an important character -- and I don't think you put it strongly enough when you say "if for nothing else than to define them as real, living, flawed, human beings." An important character *must be* a real flawed human being for us to accept him and to develop the relationship we must for the fiction to become a vivid dream (you knew I was going to say it at least once, right?) But using adjectives at least as often gets in the way! I have a perfectly good image of Ender Wiggin, thanks, and I don't need for Card to tell me extra stuff. Far more important that he tells me about Ender's *feelings* and *failings* and why he isn't a normal kid and what that makes him instead. Hemingway -- no slouch of a writer there -- consciously avoided the use of adjectives. And did it completely intentionally: (although I can't find the reference right now, so this won't be a direct quote) he wrote about this that he felt it was none of his business how we saw his characters, and that he didn't want to make judgements for us. He wanted us simply to understand them and make our own judgements. For this reason, he avoided the use of adjectives whenever possible. I think he went too far: or at least, he takes it too far from what I think I can manange myself. But using lots of adjectives in the attempt to give the "atmosphere" is often a mark of a nice 80,000 word novel hidden in a 150,000 (or 300,000!) word tome. Again with reference to Ender's Game, most of the novel was from Ender's point of view, and the central point of the novel was how his point of view changed and what doing what he did *felt like.* I doubt that he ever noticed how his own eyes furrowed in concentration as he tried to whup the other team in the games: so it is inappropriate for it to be mentioned in the book. Your last point is that if one never describes at all, one has less work to do. Having just spent about a week trimming unneeded description from a short story, trying to make more clear and complete my image in real terms, I can tell you: it just ain't so. It's bloody well harder to do what you need to do in 100 words than 1000. Adjectives are all to often waste space, trying to force us to see what the author has not been able to imagine clearly enough him(her)self: because if the imagination is clear enough, the real details will carry without them. This is your last para: "Our adjectives are leaving us, slowly and surely, and they sail away on a rusty freighter flying a plague flag, out of the dying port of a nation conquered one hundred years ago in a horrible war of attrition and starvation, sailing into a polluted sunset over an oily sea." This is a nice example of what can be done with adjectives: (forgive me) overwritten, daubed over with sentiment, painted in garish colors like Socialist Realism paintings above Lenin's tomb. But (if these shipboard adjectives were characters), it would tell us nothing about them: it doesn't make us see the sunset better (a polluted sunset often has the most wonderful colors), it doesn't tell us how *they* feel about the war (why are they leaving? are they the conquerors or the conquered?), and it tugs at our gut level emotional response like a collie puppy in a pet-store display. Far better to make a story from what a character thinks, feels, and believes than to have to get one's effects through tricks that put one in mind of the oncoming trains in a 3D movie. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Jan 86 1500-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #15 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 14 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 15 Today's Topics: Books - December Booklist ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hplabs!faunt@caip.rutgers.edu (Doug Faunt) Subject: December Booklist from the OCOH Date: 14 Jan 86 01:56:31 GMT This is the monthly list of books received at the OCOH, with comments, as posted on Scifido, a sf oriented BBS, available at (415)655-8604. Support your local specialty bookshops, and if you don't have one, support ours. The Other Change of Hobbit 2433 Channing Way Berkeley, CA 94704 Happy New Year to all! December 1985 was a strange month, because Ace Books published two months worth of titles (to make up for a month they skipped a couple of years back, and to rearrange the shipping schedules between Ace and Berkley Books). So even though there are always fewer hardcovers than usual in December, there are enough new paperbacks to make up for this lack. Hardcovers and Trade Paperbacks Asimov, Isaac THE ALTERNATE ASIMOVS Collects the unpublished first versions of PEBBLE IN THE SKY, THE END OF ETERNITY and "Belief". "Every once in a while I do a book that is not my own idea." - the author's introduction. ("The qualitative difference between these crude first drafts and their rewritten versions makes one wonder how much better more recent novels might have been..." - Dave) Asprin, Robert LITTLE MYTH MARKER The sixth MythAdventure; cover and illos by Phil Foglio. Browne, Dik HAGAR THE HORRIBLE'S VERY NEARLY COMPLETE VIKING HANDBOOK "This manual is filled with hands-on advice for anyone who would enter the Viking business." - the blurb. With helpful illustrations. Dick, Philip K. RADIO FREE ALBEMUTH ("This (truly) undiscovered science fiction novel is a precursor to VALIS, incorporating many of the same concepts in a different (and much more accessible) style. Of interest to any PKD fan, but not a good place to start if you're unfamiliar with Dick." - Debbie) Fraser, George FLASHMAN AT THE CHARGE MacDonald Reprint 1973 hardcover; first trade paperback Kelly, James Patrick FREEDOM BEACH and John Kessel Lovecraft, H. P. AT THE MOUNTAINS OF MADNESS Reprint 1964 hardcover. Corrected fifth printing. THE DUNWICH HORROR Reprint 1963 hardcover. Corrected seventh printing. These are the first two of the new critical editions following Lovecraft's manuscripts where available and correcting corrupt magazine texts. Critical editing by S. T. Joshi. A major publishing achievement, long overdue. Martin, George R. NIGHTFLYERS Collection including three stories from A SONG FOR LYA and one from SONGS OF STARS AND SHADOWS. Morris, Janet BEYOND THE VEIL A second Thieves' World (TM) novel. Murphy, Shirley VALENTINE FOR A DRAGON Rousseau Illustrated by Kay Chorao. O'Dnell, Peter DEAD MAN'S HANDLE The twelfth Modesty Blaise book (the 11th novel). Pierce, Meredith Ann BIRTH OF THE FIREBRINGER First book in a new trilogy. Roberts, Keith KITEWORLD British hardcover (first edition). Vance, Jack LYONESSE: THE GREEN PEARL Limited edition of 600 numbered and signed copies in a suede slipcase; trade paperback due in April. Wilson, Robert Anton THE WIDOW'S SON Volume II of the Historical Illuminatus Chronicles; the first was THE EARTH WILL SHAKE. Zahn, Timothy SPINNERET Zebrowski, George NEBULA AWARDS 20 (ed.) Introduction by Zebrowski, essay by Algis Budrys, poems by Joe Haldeman and Helen Ehrlich, as well as the three short fiction winners and eight nominees for the 1984 award. ("Too much overlap with the various "best" anthologies, but fine reading if you missed the others." - Debbie) Mass Market Paperbacks Adams, Robert, M. H. BARBARIANS Greenberg and C. G. Contains one original story, plus Waugh (eds.) reprints by Leiber, Niven, Norton and others. Anderson, Poul (crea- TERRORISTS OF TOMORROW tor), M. H. Green- Reprint anthology. berg & C. G. Waugh (eds.) Anthony, Piers HASAN Reprint 1977 trade paperback, second mass edition. Asimov, Isaac & ISAAC ASIMOV PRESENTS THE GREAT SF STORIES 14 M. H. Greenberg Stories from 1952, including (as all and C. G. Waugh, the others in this series do) a lot (eds.) of excellent reading. This one lacks magazine attributions. Asprin, Robert & SOUL OF THE CITY Lynn Abbey (eds.) Thieves' World (TM) Book 8. Contains two stories each by Abbey, Cherryh and Morris. (A customer was so upset by the sexist stereotypes in the Janet Morris stories that he wrote and asked us to warn you about them - Debbie) Brackett, Leigh THE LONG TOMORROW Reprint 1955 hardcover. ("Classic underrated post-holocaust novel." - Dave) Bradley, Marion Zimmer THE BEST OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY ("Unfortunately, with a lot of short stories in one place, some of Bradley's recurring themes get a bit repetitive - nonetheless, some entertaining reading here." - Debbie) Brust, Steven BROKEDOWN PALACE ("Grateful Dead fans may catch some extra references, but you don't have to know the music to enjoy this stylistically quirky and beautifully constructed fantasy" - Debbie) Callin, Grant SATURNALIA Card, Orson Scott ENDER'S GAME Reprint 1985 hardcover - very likely to be a Nebula nominee this year. ("Deceptively starts off like just another STARSHIP TROOPERS clone, but develops characters and philosophy much more interestingly. Structural problem with the end may be solved by the forthcoming sequel." - Dave) Chalker, Jack THE IDENTITY MATRIX Reprint 1982 paperback. Cherryh, C. J. THE KIF STRIKE BACK The third Chanur book. This one ends "To Be Continued", but not with a cliffhanger. Cole, Allan and Chris THE COURT OF A THOUSAND SUNS Bunch The third "Sten" novel. Coppel, Alfred THE REBEL OF RHADA (writing as Reprint 1968 hardcover; second Robert Cham Gilman) paperback edition. This is the first book of the original trilogy. Dann, Jack THE MAN WHO MELTED Reprint 1984 hardcover, incorporating the story "Blind Shemmy". ("The first half is a near-perfect fusion of sf and mysticism, but it breaks down into soap opera in the second half." - Debbie) Dann, Jack and Gardner MERMAIDS! Dozois (eds.) Reprint anthology. Delany, Samuel R. NOVA Reprint 1968 hardcover; 13th printing; new cover by Graphic Associates (we wouldn't put our names on it either). One of Dave's ten favorite sf novels - also highly recommended by Tom and Debbie. TRITON: An Ambiguous Heterotopia Reprint 1976 paperback; new cover by Graphic Associates (see above). ("One of Delany's most challenging and rewarding novels, notable above all for The Spike, one of sf's most memorable characters. Recommended." - Debbie) Dickson, Gordon R. SPACE WINNERS Reprint 1965 hardcover; the "first time in paperback" blurb is true! ("Earth's best and brightest high school seniors go to Federation prep school. Great fun; the Alien has the best characterization." - Jan) Dillard, J. M. MINDSHADOW Star Trek (R) Novel #27. Emerson, Ru THE PRINCESS OF FLAMES ("An unusual treatment of some usual themes, very enjoyable and, I thought, visually interesting." - Jennifer) Feist, Raymond E. MAGICIAN: APPRENTICE Reprints the first half of the 1982 hardcover (and trade paperback) MAGICIAN. Second half due in March. Green, Jen & Sarah DESPATCHES FROM THE FRONTIERS OF THE FEMALE Lefanu (eds.) MIND ("A superb anthology spanning a wide range from Joanna Russ at her most hilarious to Pamela Zoline at her most demanding. Lots of good stories from newcomers, too." - Debbie) Hambly, Barbara DRAGONSBANE ("Fascinating original treatment of the relationship between magic and dragons." - Dave) Hoban, Russell PILGERMANN Reprint 1983 hardcover. Johnson, Crockett BARNABY #3: JACKEEN J. O'MALLEY FOR CONGRESS Reprints strips from 8/27/43 to 5/6/44. "The greatest book since WAR AND PEACE." - J. J. O'Malley. Highly recommended even by those of us without little pink wings. Jones, Diana Wynne THE HOMEWARD BOUNDERS Reprint 1981 hardcover. ("Good young adult fantasy, with a better ending than most of hers." - Tom) Kress, Nancy THE GOLDEN GROVE Reprint 1984 hardcover. Laumer, Keith ROGUE BOLO Contains an essay from BOLO, but otherwise appears to be new short stories. WORLDS OF THE IMPERIUM Reissue 1982 paperback - includes two short stories, plus the title novel. Leiber, Fritz THE SINFUL ONES Reprint 1950 trade paperback. This is the book that was revised as YOU'RE ALL ALONE (now long out-of-print). Until the Gregg Press and Timescape editions in 1980, it was extremely hard to find. ("A classic novel of shifting realities. Recommended." - Debbie) Leiber, Justin THE SWORD AND THE TOWER Book Two of the Saga of the House of Eigin. Lichtenberg, Jacqueline OUTREACH Dushau Trilogy #3. Lindholm, Megan WIZARD OF THE PIGEONS ("A different and rather darkly fascinating book." - Jennifer) Mace, David DEMON 4 First American edition of 1984 British book. O'Riordan, Robert CADRE ONE Pournelle, Jerry & FAR FRONTIERS, Volume IV Jim Baen (eds.) A paperback "magazine" with erratic numbering and titling policies. Price, E. Hoffman OPERATION EXILE Sequel to OPERATION LONGLIFE and OPERATION MISFIT. Richardson, R. S. SHUTTLE DOWN (writing as "Lee Reprint 1981 paperback. Richardson's Correy") other, and perhaps better known, pseudonym is G. Harry Stine, which he uses for scientific articles. Robinson, Spider NIGHT OF POWER Reprint 1985 hardcover. ("Robinson's very personal confrontation with racial violence - so strongly didactic that you can probably only enjoy it if you see the problem much as he does." - Debbie) Rosenberg, Joel EMILE AND THE DUTCHMAN Incorporates "Like the Gentle Rains" and "In the Shadow of Heaven" from Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine. Rothman, Chuck STAROAMER'S FATE Russell, Eric Frank SINISTER BARRIER Reprint 1948 hardcover (postwar revised and preferred text). First in a series of six Russell reissues. Highly recommended. ("Classic paranoid novel on Fortean themes - a bit dated now, but still exciting." - Tom) St. Clair, Margaret THE BEST OF MARGARET ST. CLAIR The only St. Clair in print, unfortunately. Schmidt, Dennis WAYFARER Reprint 1978 paperback; first of the Kensho series. Silverberg, Robert NEXT STOP THE STARS Reprint 1962 paperback. Stith, John E. MEMORY BLANK Straub, Peter IF YOU COULD SEE ME NOW Reprint 1977 hardcover; seventh paperback printing. Suyin, Han THE ENCHANTRESS Reprint 1985 hardcover - her first fantasy novel (after her Pulitzer prize). Swycaffer, Jefferson P. THE PRAESIDIUM OF ARCHIVE Tepper, Sheri S. BLOOD HERITAGE Her first horror novel. ("Derivative; a lot less interesting than her fantasy work." - Tom) Utley, Alison A TRAVELLER IN TIME Reprint of 1939 hardcover - apparently the first paperback edition. Vardeman, Robert E. THE WHITE FIRE Jade Demons #4. Watson, Ian THE BOOK OF THE RIVER Reprint 1983 British hardcover; first American paperback edition. Whiteford, Wynne BREATHING SPACE ONLY First American edition; reprint 1980 Australian edition. Willard, Nancy THINGS INVISIBLE TO SEE Reprint 1985 hardcover. ("A strange combination of spiritualism, baseball and 1930s atmosphere; the mainstream aspects work better than the fantastic ones." - Debbie) Wyndham, John THE DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS Reprint 1951 hardcover - the classic novel that preceded the film. ....!hplabs!faunt faunt@hplabs.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Jan 86 0844-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #16 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 16 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 16 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Laumer & Sagan & Spinrad & The Flying Sorcerors, Television - Star Trek (2 msgs) & Overdrawn at the Memory Bank, Miscellaneous - Descriptions (2 msgs) & Sex in SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ewan@uw-june (Ewan Tempero) Subject: Re: "Brokedown Palace" by Steven Brust Date: 11 Jan 86 21:00:55 GMT Piersol.PASA@Xerox.ARPA writes: > I disagree with your negative review of Brokedown Palace. I > enjoyed it thoroughly. Rather than an attempt to emulate a Zelazny > novel, it rather Me too > attempts to emulate the classic style of european fairy tales and > allegories. The reason this style is classic is because it works > well to convey morals and messages without being heavy handed. I > thought he pulled it off rather well. I remember Brust saying ( when he was on the net ) that this was based on Hungarian(?) tales. Someone said a while ago that he/she thought that BP was in the pre-history of Yendi and Jhereg but I think if anything, it's post these two since Devera appears now as a real person but the last time we saw her she "hadn't been born yet". Someone else thought that Jhereg and Yendi were set in Fairie since BP was in a land "east of Fairie" and concluded that this was the land that humans lived in Jhereg and Yendi. However there is no evidence of Witchcraft in BP....so unless Fairie is also part of the human lands ( where there is Witchcraft or is it sorcery? I'm not sure what the difference is ) then there seems to be an inconsistancy....something I don't expect from Brust. I don't really know what any of this means..... Ewan Tempero UUCP: ...!uw-beaver!uw-june!ewan ARPA: ewan@washington.ARPA ------------------------------ From: well!lflgames@caip.rutgers.edu (Lucasfilm Games Division) Subject: Re: Rogue Bolo? Date: 14 Jan 86 01:02:33 GMT The book is brand new as far as I can tell, but not very good. It's not told in a narrative style, but rather in a series of excerpts from papers, letters, and conversations. It also seems to violate some of his previous bolo books as it takes place on an Earth without interstellar spaceflight, concerning a bolo with a larger model number than some of his post spaceflight bolos. There's also a short story included in the book that seems to be a rewrite and expansion of an earlier story about a decommissioned bolo on an alien planet that saves the town when the nasty aliens return again. The whole package is bad for Laumer - I hear he's been slowly recuperating for years from a stroke or something, his writing has not been up to par. I'm not 100% certain on all this, as I don't have the copy of my book here, but I'm sure I'll be corrected in any case :-). Noah Falstein ihpn4!ptsfa!well!lflgames (mention Noah in subject) ------------------------------ From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: CONTACT by Carl Sagan (mild spoiler) Date: 8 Jan 86 19:23:13 GMT The inside jacket reads: "For centuries humanity has dreamed of life and intelligence beyond the Earth; for decades scientists have searched for it in every corner of the sky; for years Project Argus, a vast, sophisticated complex of radio telescopes, has listened for a signal indicating the existence, somewhere in the universe, of exterrestrial intelligence. Then, one afternoon, the course of human history is changed, abruptly and forever. The Message, awaited for so long, its very possibility doubted by so many, arrives. Contact has been made. Life, intelligence, someone, something beyond Earth, 26 light-years away, in the vicinity of the star Vega, is calling, beaming across space a wholly unexpected message to say that we are not--have never been--alone. [Skipping hype about Carl Sagan.] At its center is a brilliant scientist, Eleanor Arroway, director of Project Argus, who is the first to realize that chapter one of human history is over. It is she who is instrumental in decoding the Message-- and in persuading world leaders not to treat it as a threat--she who finds her own life changed by the immense challenge of responding to the Message; she who finally journeys out to experience, in circumstances at once profoundly religious and scientific, the most fateful encounter in human history. [Skipping hype about the book.] The jacket is fairly accurate, so I won't say much more about the plot per se. As everyone knows, Dr. Sagan is very good at explaining things, but he has a tendency to not know when to stop. In CONTACT, this problem is made worse in that a lot of the opinions and explanations are concentrated in the first half of the book; I got really tired of hearing the character's views on religion, for instance. Looking at this book from an SF fan's angle, I feel let down. The scientific ideas here are pretty interesting, but the writing aroused only mild enthusiasm on my part. The characters seemed rather pale, and the few personal relationships were muddled. There's quite a bit of dialogue, not enough action, and a disappointing adventure. I give this book 2.5 stars; it's good, but I'd call it average for SF. Duane Morse ...!noao!terak|anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jan 86 22:53:48 est From: jbvb@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (James B. VanBokkelen) Subject: Spinrad & Child of Fortune I haven't read "Child of Fortune" (COF), but I have read "The Void Captain's Tale" (VCT) and several other Spinrad books. I have liked them all, but have so far avoided "The Mind Game" because its subject looks like one that would both raise my ire and depress me. The author's mindset seems to derive a great deal from the pre-commercialization "flower" movement. What he is doing is projecting forward this mindset (lifesytle/philosophy/whatever) into futures where technology has removed greed and hunger as causes of conflict. So what happens? Rather than simply dismissing it (like Niven did in "Safe at Any Speed"), in VCT he illustrates the downfall/triumph of a member of that culture confronted with a challenge/frontier. It sounds like COF illustrates coming-of-age in such a society. As far as where Spinrad is coming from, mentally, emotionally and politically, to a certain extent 'you hadda be there'. The part of the '60s he likes had much more going on than simply war protests. I got my appreciation 2nd and 3rd hand while at school in the mid '70s but you could try sitting down some day and reading "The Electric Kool Aid Acid Test" (Wolfe), "Journey to Ixtlan" (Castaneda), "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" (Thompson) and "Another Roadside Attraction" (Robbins) while listening to Jefferson Airplane and the Woodstock album. James B. VanBokkelen jbvb@borax.lcs.mit.edu (arpanet only) ------------------------------ From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: Gods in The Flying Sorcerors Date: 13 Jan 86 03:15:23 GMT I was home over Christmas, and picked up my copy of _The Flying Sorcerors_. While I was rereading it, I decided to make a list of the gods and try and match them up with the originals. This might have been hashed out a while back; if so, I apologize. If you can fill in some of the blanks, or disagree with my answers, send me mail. By the way, the book was copyright 1971 (so don't suggest that Peers is Piers Anthony). Musk-Watz wind god N'veen god of tides, patron of mapmakers Leeb god of magic Ouells blue sun Virn red sun Rotn'bair sheep god, symbol is a horned box Nils'n god of mud creatures, symbol is two empty circles separated by a diagonal line Filfo-mar river god Elcin god of lightning and fear, the Great and Tiny God of Lightning and Loud Noises Fine-line god of engineers and architects Klarther god of skies and seas Brad god of the past Kronk god of the future Po god of decay Fol god of distortion Pull'nissin god of duels Blok god of violence Tis'turzhin god of love Sp'nee ruler of slime Tukker god of names Caff god of dragons Yake god of what-if Furman god of Fasf (whatever that is) Poup god of fertility Peers mad demon, constantly snarling and gnashing womens names: Kate, Judy, Anne, Ursula, Karen, Andre, Marion, Leigh, Miriam, Sonya, Zenna, Joanna, Quinn magishuns: Shoogar, Dorthy, As a color, a Shade of Purple-Gray Musk-Watz ?? N'veen Larry Niven, god of tides from _There is a Tide_, don't know about patron of mapmakers Leeb Fritz Lieber, magic is obvious Ouells H. G. Wells; several times referred to as blue Ouells--blue whales? (that would fit Orson Welles a bit better :-) Virn Jules Verne Rotn'bair Gene Roddenberry? I don't understand the sheep god bit, but the horned box might refer to a TV w/ rabbit ear antennae. Nils'n Nielsen, as in Nielsen ratings. The symbol (a percent sign) makes this fairly clear. Amusing that Nils'n and Rotn'bair are enemies Filfo-mar Philip Jose Farmer, _Riverworld_ Elcin clearly Harlan Ellison Fine-line Robert A. Heinlein Klarther Arthur C. Clarke Brad Ray Bradbury, "The Sound of Thunder" Kronk ?? Walter Cronkheit, maybe? Po Edgar Allen Poe Fol ?? Someone suggested Phil Foglio Pull'nissin Poul Anderson? Don't understand why he should be the god of duels Blok Robert Bloch, _Psycho_ Tis'turzhin Ted Sturgeon Sp'nee ?? Tukker ?? Caff Anne McCaffery, _Dragonriders of Pern_ Yake ?? Furman if Fasf is the Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, then perhaps he was an editor? Poup ?? Peers peers, maybe? Kate Wilhem, Judy Lynn Del-Rey?, Anne McCaffery, Ursula K. Le Guin, Karen Anderson?, Andre Norton, Marian Zimmer Bradley, Leigh Brackett, Miriam ?, Sonya ?, Zenna Henderson, Joanna Russ, Quinn ? Shoogar sugar and spice, and everything nice? Dorthi Dorthi was displaced as village magician when a strange magician fell out of the sky and flattened his house. Purple was given Dorthi's scarlet sandals and his robe. Anyway, fairly clearly Dorothy Gayle. As a color, a shade of Purple-Gray uh, yeah. david rickel decwrl!amdcad!cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: Sat 11 Jan 86 18:16:32-EST From: Chris.Durham Subject: trek question In "The Menagerie", Spock states that what they are viewing on the screen ocurred 13 years ago. "Space Seed" happened after "The Menagerie", I think all will agree on that. STII , The Wrath of Khan, happened 15 years after "Space Seed", according to Khan. This makes the Enterprise at least 28 years old. The Commander of Star Fleet, in STIII, said that the Enterprise was 20 years old. Can anyone give a reasonable "rationalization" for this discrepancy, other than the fact that the writers made a mistake in assigning the age of the Enterprise according to the 20 years ago that "Star Trek" first aired? Chris Durham CD0V@TE.CC.CMU.EDU CD0V%TE.CC.CMU.EDU@CU20B.BITNET CD0V%TE.CC.CMU.EDU@CARNEGIE.MAILNET ------------------------------ From: ihlpa!ibyf@caip.rutgers.edu (Scott) Subject: Re: trek question Date: 13 Jan 86 17:01:21 GMT Yes, this is due to the time-inducive warp effect caused by anyone wearing a wristwatch (or simialr time related device) while being transported via the transporter beam. The result of this effect is a loss of real time (depending on baud rate) of approx. .6 seconds. If you take this factor and multiply it by the number of poeple "beamed down" to a planet surface, taking into account the distance from earth at the time, the average hight of the pyramids squared, the suns gravitational effect on the universe as a whole, the age of Gene, Bill, Leonard, and Deforrest, and of course the number of times Scotty said "..dilythium crystals..." times pi to the eighth power, you'll find that the result is exactly 7.9543621 years. Now, who would expect the Commander to know that? I'm sure he just rounded it off to eight years because he's got more important things to think about! ------------------------------ From: stc!pete@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Bankrupt at the Memory Bank Date: 13 Jan 86 10:04:00 GMT Well, I was warned but I watched it anyway (on 14" monochrome). I should have known better. Apart from messing up the story for dumb reasons instead of good dramatic reasons, the production reminded me of one of those BBC-2 'Out of the Unknown's from the '60s. This sort of thing gives public broadcasting a bad name (though it was shown in the UK on a commercial channel) Could Glen A. Larson have done any better? NO, but that's no compensation. Peter Kendell ...!mcvax!ukc!stc!pete ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 11 Jan 86 15:46:00 GMT A brief agreement with some of dht's observations. Good description is (in my opinion) one of the hardest things in writing to do well. Writing books/instructors/workshops carp at beginning writers to avoid excess description because so much beginner's description is terribly overwritten or otherwise non-effective. The problem is, once the beginners get past the beginner's stage, most of them don't go back and pick it up. I don't think all works would benefit from more description, but I agree that many would. Jim Brunet {ihnp4, decvax}!ima!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb jimb at ima/*cca-unix.arpa ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: Reply to Davis Tucker re: adjectives Date: 13 Jan 86 09:42:56 GMT crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) writes: >Your last point is that if one never describes at all, one has less >work to do. Having just spent about a week trimming unneeded >description from a short story, trying to make more clear and >complete my image in real terms, I can tell you: it just ain't so. >It's bloody well harder to do what you need to do in 100 words than >1000. That does not mean that Mr. Tucker is wrong---or perhaps it depends on your definition of description. To me, description need not include color, or temperature, or any of those things for which we use adjectives. It can consist entirely of the actions and feelings of a character. Do not misunderstand: I like adjectives---in moderation. Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ From: ewan@uw-june (Ewan Tempero) Subject: Re: sexual slant in SF books ( side issue ) Date: 11 Jan 86 20:50:05 GMT MRC@PANDA writes: > population. Exclusively gay societies are unlikely to exist > because (in general) gays don't reproduce and even when they do, > 85% of the children turn out to be straight. As a side comment, I remember a story that included ( tho' not as the main story ) the fact the society was now exclusively ( almost ) gay. The world government had encouraged this behaviour from centuries back as a means to birth control. ( no explicit details tho' ). The story was about a long war ( drawn out by the effects of relativity ), called something like "The 1000 year war" or some such. Ewan Tempero UUCP: ...!uw-beaver!uw-june!ewan ARPA: ewan@washington.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Jan 86 0909-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #17 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 16 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 17 Today's Topics: Books - Auel (4 msgs) & Brust & Clarke & Lindholm & Lustbader & Story Identification, Films - Bladerunner, Miscellaneous - Catching Up & Descriptions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: utai!perelgut@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Perelgut) Subject: "The Earth's Children Series: Clan of the Cave Bear", Jean M. Subject: Auel Date: 12 Jan 86 22:16:22 GMT The Clan of the Cave Bear Jean M. Auel Bantam Books, 1980 (paperback) This is my second time through this book, in preparation for reading the third book in the series, "The Mammoth Hunters". The Earth's Children Series is not really science fiction. And it sure isn't fantasy. But it seems appropriate for this group. The series deals with the life and times of an early homo sapiens forced by circumstances to live with Neanderthals. This book is excellent, the woodlore seems as completely researched, and the characters are vivid. The author has taken very few liberties, all required to advance the plot. For example, Neanderthals have a form of tribal memory that can be brought out by a sort of telepathic trance. I doubt there is hard achaeological evidence of such a trait. Also, our heroine stands a bit larger than life, constantly making startling discoveries or drawing conclusions that are very far removed from her own experience. In spite of what I perceived as inconsistencies, the book hangs together remarkably well. It is very easy to visualize yourself in the correct environment and to empathize with the characters. Even on second reading, the detailed descriptions of the people and the land held as much interest as they did the first time. On my scale of -4 to +4, I'd easily rate this one a +3. There are a few flaws, but they are minor and easily overlooked as you consume this slice of life from the end of an Ice Age. Stephen Perelgut Computer Systems Research Institute, University of Toronto ------------------------------ From: utai!perelgut@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Perelgut) Subject: "The Earth's Children Series: Valley of Horses", Jean M. Auel Date: 12 Jan 86 22:18:02 GMT The Valley of Horses Jean M. Auel Bantam Books, 1982 (paperback) This is the second book in the Earth's Children Series by Jean Auel. This is my second time through this book, in preparation for reading the next book in the series, "The Mammoth Hunters". The first 350 or so pages of the 550 page tome are split between Ayla's continuing saga in the Valley of Horses and the story of two brothers, Jondalar and Thonolan, who are undertaking a Journey. Ayla has been cursed and is now living on her own. She still thinks of herself more as Clan than Other, and in some ways this is more a story of her acceptance of her heritage and destiny than anything else. I found myself getting pretty impatient for the two story lines to join. I remember when I first read this book, I felt pretty much the same way. But Auel has adopted a dime-novel romance style and obviously wanted to exploit it fully. Substitute a castle turret for the cave and you almost have a classic gothic romance. But mixed in are details of life as a human being 30,000 B.C. In spite of the rather trashy romantic interludes (our heroine is a tall, slender, gorgeous blond with large breasts - and she thinks she's ugly; our hero is a 6'6" tall muscular blond who is repeatedly described as irresistably sexy and unbelievably tender and the best lover in at least 3 tribes) I love Ms Auel's imagery. However, the power of the images makes the first 350 or so pages disconcerting to read since they alternate between our hero (oh yeah, he has a large cock and knows how to use it), and our heroine. I found it was best at times to put the book down at the end of a chapter and come back to it in a few minutes. At other times, I couldn't put it down even though I've read it before. I found this book very hard to rate. There are places where it is as good as anything I've ever read, and there are places where it is as bad as I imagine Harlequin romances would be. There's a good 100-or-so pages where the lover's are desperately yearing for each other and yet very depressed over the fact that the other "won't like them." And these are people who discover how to use flint and iron to make fire; and how to make a spear thrower given the concepts of spear and slingshot; and learn how to talk in a couple of days. On my scale of -4 to +4, I think I'd rate this a +2. There are probably 250-300 pages worth of +4, and almost as many that I'd rate -2 or worse. It's the description of the land and how to survive, and the believability that earns this book my final rating. You'll probably enjoy reading it, and if you hit a bad spot, just remember there'll be a diamond just beyond that cesspool. Stephen Perelgut Computer Systems Research Institute, University of Toronto ------------------------------ From: utai!perelgut@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Perelgut) Subject: "The Earth's Children Series: Mammoth Hunters", Jean M. Auel Date: 12 Jan 86 22:20:09 GMT The Mammoth Hunters Jean M. Auel Crown Publishers, 1985 (paperback) This is the third (and so far last) book in the Earth's Children Series by Jean M. Auel. It deals with the lives of humans during the ice ages 30000 or so years ago. In particular, it deals with Ayla, a homo sapiens who was brought up by Neanderthals until she turned 15, then lived alone for 2 years, and started this book by living with a tribe of homo sapiens from a large group known as the Mamuti. The book starts out great, and goes into the usual detail of the lives and customs of the first humans. Because of the writing style and imagery, you are willing to accept almost anything Ms. Auel felt had to be added to advance the plot. Our heroine has discovered modern medicine (including stitches), Bic lighters (sort of), spear throwers, and animal husbandry (including being the first being to ride a horse). In this book, she discovers sewing (needles with eyes for threads), etc. However, the last 400 or so pages (out of roughly 650) are shit. Ms. Auel has a talent for making a scene of tender, romantic lovemaking about as interesting as eating raw liver. The last 2/3 of the book deal with Ayla's true love for Jondalar, how they love each other soooooo much that they can't see it (???), how Ayla makes every man's blood boil, and how she lives with and loves another man for a good 250-300 pages in spite of all that. Even the other characters in the book (who take a decidedly second-row seat to this crap and suffer as a result) can see what's happening. The "other man" is black, beautiful, has a large cock (all the main characters are well endowed), makes love like anything, is an artist, and has rhythm. He's also the only black in the book. I would usually say SPOILER here, but if you miss this on or about page 1 you shouldn't be allowed out in public without a keeper or seeing-eye dog. Ayla and Jondalar meet in a tender and yet boring and meaningless scene with only 5 or so pages to go. Some cliff-hanger romance. The magic and beauty of the first two books is so completely subsumed in this non-existent romantic triangle that everything stands out in sharp relief. Where I forgave artifices meant to advance the plot in the first two books, they stand out and act further against the book and the plot. The mysticism that was kept only in the background for the other books becomes a major force with the Mamut (medicine man) constantly saying Ayla has a destiny. Even Ayla worries about this. As a reader, it makes me wonder why Ms. Auel had to include it after writing such excellent books without resorting to it in the past. I figure that Ms. Auel: a) hasn't made love in years or b) had a major stroke after writing the first 1/3 of the book or c) was given a subscription to Harlequin romances and it warped her mind. or d) had the book ghost written by someone named Bambi. On my scale of -4 to +4, this book rates a -1. I'd have gone for -3 except for the first 1/3 and the occasional (but very infrequent) bursts of magic like those that fill most of the first two books. Don't rush to read this one, wait for it in used paperback shops or borrow it if you're bedridden. P.S. The worst (or best?) thing about this book is that it is obvious we can expect at least one other book and probably many more. I don't think I'll be sucked into paying hardcover prices again without seeing a review first. Stephen Perelgut Computer Systems Research Institute, University of Toronto ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccrrick@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick) Subject: Notes on Jean M. Auel Date: 16 Jan 86 02:42:11 GMT Heard her interviewed on the Larry King radio program the other night. She is planning 6 books in the series, though if the recent review is on the mark, I wonder if she'll get that far. An interesting sidelight is that both she and her husband are former employees of Tektronix in Oregon. rick heli ...{ucbvax,lll-crg}!ucdavis!ccrrick ------------------------------ From: ihnp3!gsky@caip.rutgers.edu (glenn kapetansky) Subject: Re: "Brokedown Palace" by Steven Brust Date: 14 Jan 86 22:01:50 GMT I just wanted to put in my two shekels worth. I also enjoyed Brokedown Palace. I have read all of SKZB's stuff, and only liked them all (except To Reign In Hell, but perhaps that's because I'm a fan of John Milton's and feel that High matters require the use of "High English"). SKZB has a very casual conversational style which transforms the almost non-existent plot into a rollicking good read. I think it was Stephen Donaldson who wrote that some authors are good character writers, some are good plot writers, some are good at describing scenery. For instance, I feel Poul Anderson is a good writer in all three categories. I think SKZB is a good writer of the first category, and getting better. glenn kapetansky ...ihnp3!gsky ------------------------------ From: hadron!klr@caip.rutgers.edu (Kurt L. Reisler) Subject: Message path to Arthur C. Clarke being sought Date: 14 Jan 86 03:21:59 GMT We are looking for a path to send electronic mail to Arthur C. Clarke. We are interested in sending him some information about some advanced AI and supercomputer that we are working on (since he predicted them all anyway). Thanks in advance, Kurt Reisler ..!seismo!hadron!klr ------------------------------ From: ihnp3!gsky@caip.rutgers.edu (glenn kapetansky) Subject: Re: _Wizard of the Pigeons_ and new Tepper book Date: 14 Jan 86 22:05:35 GMT I just read Wizard of the Pigeons (also on the advice of Zelazny's and Brust's blurbs on the cover), and agree that it is astoundingly good. I just couldn't put it down! I think it was the deceptively simple imagery that kept me enthralled, and is now encouraging me to use big words to describe it... Consider this a recommendation to read it. I was vaguely reminded of Prince Ombra (by Somebody MacSomething), but I think I prefer WoftP. glenn kapetansky ...ihnp3!gsky ------------------------------ From: sunybcs!lazarus@caip.rutgers.edu (Daniel G. Winkowski) Subject: Re: Sunset Warrior Trilogy (Eric Von Lustbader) Date: 14 Jan 86 21:54:55 GMT His other novels Ninja, Miko, Jian, etc... are all written in a cross between oriental and western settings. The protagonist is usaully a mixture from both cultures, and the plot often involves international intrigue. I at least, find his novels of first rate caliber. He writes with an intamite feel for Asian culture. A good read when you have had enough science fiction. Dan Winkowski @ SUNY Buffalo Computer Science (716-636-2193) UUCP: ..![bbncca,decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath]!sunybcs!lazarus CSNET: lazarus@Buffalo.CSNET ARPA: lazarus%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY ------------------------------ From: geowhiz!schuh@caip.rutgers.edu (David Schuh) Subject: Book Identification of Re: sex slant in SF books ( side issue Subject: ) Date: 14 Jan 86 18:55:42 GMT ewan@uw-june (Ewan Tempero) writes: >As a side comment, I remember a story that included ( tho' not as >the main story ) the fact the society was now exclusively ( almost >) gay. The world government had encouraged this behaviour from >centuries back as a means to birth control. ( no explicit details >tho' ). The story was about a long war ( drawn out by the effects >of relativity ), called something like "The 1000 year war" or some >such. I believe that the story you refer to is _The Forever War_ by Joe Haldeman (I believe) Quite enjoyable I thought. Dave schuh ------------------------------ Date: Thu 16 Jan 86 00:38:36-EST From: Vince.Fuller@C.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: "Bladerunner" query Does anyone out in netland have a clue as to the etymology of the word "bladerunner"? The usage of the word clearly gives its meaning in the movie, but the word itself makes no sense at all. The word "bladerunner" to me suggests persons who illegally smuggle edged weapons (a la drugrunner, rumrunner, etc) which is not even remotely akin to the usage in the movie. This has been bugging me ever since the movie came out, and it seems strange to me that nothing along these lines has appeared in SFL in the several years since then. Does PKD's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" explain the word? I'd really be curious to hear what people have to say about it... Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1986 14:31 EST From: Mark F. Rand Subject: Accounts going down Hello everyone.. During the past semester I have been saving all the editions of Sf-lovers, so now I'm catching up on them.. Still 20 editions behind, but catching up fast. Seems that here at Queens College, we were told our accounts were going down on the 10th till whatever week in the next semester they bring them up again. Well, the fact that I'm writing this means that either someone made a goof or they are giving everyone an extra week. (next semester starts on Jan. 30th) But till then, the printers aren't working, and I don't have enough disk space to keep 2 to 4 weeks of Sf-lovers. I can't keep em in my Electronic mailbox either because every once in a while there is a system crash or they just purge all files more than a week old. So, what I'm getting at is, that I'll need someone to send me the editions I missed (probably 2 or 3 at a time starting with #6) when I get my account back. Anybody read the SpellSinger series?? It's by Piers Anthony. A fantasy book. So far there are 5 books in the series. Are there any new Sector General books around?? (James (??) White) Anybody watching Dr. Who. Here on channel 50 (Wljn- Montclair, New Jersey) they are showing the William Hartnell episodes. For any non-Whovians out there, he was the very first Dr. Who. This was from about 21 years ago. Also, every other week they show one of the new Colin Baker episodes. Channel 50 shows complete episodes instead of 1/2 per. I live in New York City, so the reception isn't great, but good enough. See ya Mark Rand ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 1986 17:17:38 PST Subject: adjectives From: John Platt Well, I'm by no means a professional writer, but I have heard some professional writers talk about technique. The one thing I seem to recall is that description is good, but adjectives are (relatively) bad. In other words, use you non-ordinary nouns and verbs to convey description, not long strings of adjectives and adverbs. Thus, "Jerry snarled" is better than "Jerry violently said." This seems reasonable to me. john platt platt@cit-20 scgvaxd!cit-vax!platt ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Jan 86 0817-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #18 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 17 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 18 Today's Topics: Books - Dick & McCaffrey & The Flying Sorcerors & Bladerunner (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Descriptions & Criticism ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: PKD Society Date: Wed, 15 Jan 86 09:43:41 -0500 From: Frank Hollander For anyone with a strong interest in Philip K. Dick: The Philip K. Dick Society Box 611 Glen Ellen, CA 95442 "Membership" in the PKDS includes the PKDS Newsletter, published four times a year. There have been 8 issues so far. The newsletter has included unpublished interviews with PKD, interviews with his friends, and information about PKD publishing and media projects. The 7th issue was an unpublished story outline by PKD for the T.V. show "The Invaders". The 9th and 10th issues are being combined and released (scheduled for about now) as a cassette tape: "90 Minutes with Philip K. Dick". Membership is about 600 people. Frank Hollander ------------------------------ From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: more sexual stuff Date: 17 Jan 86 02:42:15 GMT In reference to the question of whether dragonriders necessarily mated when their dragons did, I offer the following quote from "Dragondrums": << "Menolly?" He turned to her, hands outstretched, palms up, pleading with her and apologizing for what he knew was about to happen since there were only the two of them on this becalmed boat in the middle of the windstill sea. He hadn't wanted Menolly coerced, as she now must be; he'd wanted to be in full command of himself, not overridden by the mating instinct of Kimi. >> And this was only fire lizards! Seriously, I think it is quite obvious that dragons and riders mate simultaneously. This was made clear in the first book, and has not been contradicted since. Mike Farren uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667 ------------------------------ From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: Gods in The Flying Sorcerors Date: 17 Jan 86 02:32:24 GMT daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes: > by the way, the book was copyright 1971 (so don't suggest that > Peers is Piers Anthony). Why not? Anthony was around even back then... > Musk-Watz wind god Sam Moskowitz, famous for long-winded discussions of SF history > Pull'nissin god of duels Poul Anderson is heavily involved in the Society for Creative Anachronism, which often holds tourneys & such (yeah, it's weak, but...). > Tukker god of names Bob Tucker (Wilson Tucker), famous for using his friend's names in his stories (thus the fannish word "Tuckerizing"). > Furman god of Fasf (whatever that is) Ed Ferman, long time editor of F&SF. > Peers mad demon, constantly snarling and gnashing > Kate Wilhem, Judy Lynn Del-Rey?, Anne McCaffrey, Ursula K. Le > Guin, Karen Anderson?, Andre Norton, Marian Zimmer Bradley, Leigh > Brackett, Miriam ?, Sonya ?, Zenna Henderson, Joanna Russ, Quinn ? Judy Lynn (wife of Lester, currently critically ill), Karen (wife of Poul), Quinn = Chelsea Quinn Yarbro. Miriam may be Miriam Allen DeFord. Mike Farren uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667 ------------------------------ From: lars@cartan.BERKELEY.EDU (Lars Andersson) Subject: Re: "Bladerunner" query Date: 16 Jan 86 23:40:33 GMT >From: Vince.Fuller@C.CS.CMU.EDU >Does anyone out in netland have a clue as to the etymology of the >word "bladerunner"? The usage of the word clearly gives its meaning >in the movie, but the word itself makes no sense at all. I don't recall any reference to the word in "Do Androids...", but there definitely is a novel called "Bladerunner" by William S. Burroughs (that great neglected S.F.-writer) that came out before the movie. The title of the novel refers to smuggling of illegal medical equipment, scalpels, body parts etc. Does anyone recall enough of the book and the movie to tell if there is more resemblance than just the title. Also, has anyone noticed the intense resemblance between the 'feel' of the sets in the movie "Bladerunner" and the novel "Neuro- mancer" by William Gibson. He claims to have seen part of the movie but left in the middle when he noticed how much it resembled his own settings.... And this guy is THE S.F. writer who is most influenced by W.S. Burroughs, sometimes you feel that he has lifted whole paragraphs out of the work of W.S.B. Lars ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!markb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar) Subject: Re: "Bladerunner" query Date: 17 Jan 86 00:02:44 GMT There is a SF novel by Alan Norse called "Bladerunner". In the world depicted in the novel all medical care by law is done at government run clinics and hospitals. The law also says that if you need medical care and are found to have any "undesirable" genetic traits they sterilize you. Most people thus try not to go to a clinic until they have had kids. Some doctors are rebeling against this law by secretly providing medical care on the black market. A "Bladerunner" is a black market supplier of illegal medical supplies. It is my understanding that they stole the title for the movie. Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Description in WritingD Date: 14 Jan 86 19:30:00 GMT >> = Charlie Martin > = William Woody >> (responding to Davis Tucker) >> I agree with you that being able to clearly understand an >> important character -- and I don't think you put it strongly >> enough when you say "if for nothing else than to define them as >> real, living, flawed, human beings." An important character >> *must be* a real flawed human being for us to accept him and to >> develop the relationship we must for the fiction to become a >> vivid dream (you knew I was going to say it at least once, >> right?) >> But using adjectives at least as often gets in the way! I have a >> perfectly good image of Ender Wiggin, thanks, and I don't need >> for Card to tell me extra stuff. Far more important that he >> tells me about Ender's *feelings* and *failings* and why he isn't >> a normal kid and what that makes him instead. I think that deft selection of adjectives/description can add a lot to a story and many writers are too lazy or not confident enough to do it. One of the ways you convey a character is in how he/she/it sees the world; for this, accurate description is absolutely necessary. Mood, via description, adds to understanding of a characters feelings and failings. The trick is to find the specific image that works, to avoid using two images where one will do, and not to overwrite. Point of view is also a consideration. If my third-person is told from a character's point of view, my description will be through those eyes. If I'm using a third-person omniscient, my description will be through the filter of an auctorial intelligence consistent for that story. >> Hemingway -- no slouch of a writer there -- consciously avoided >> the use of adjectives. And did it completely intentionally: >> (although I can't find the reference right now, so this won't be >> a direct quote) he wrote about this that he felt it was none of >> his business how we saw his characters, and that he didn't want >> to make judgements for us. He wanted us simply to understand >> them and make our own judgements. For this reason, he avoided >> the use of adjectives whenever possible. How much of a slouch is debatable. I personally find Hemingway to be a one-dimensional writer, interested in conveying only a narrow segment of that "vivid dream" that we both seem to feel is important. >> I think he went too far: or at least, he takes it too far from >> what I think I can manange myself. But using lots of adjectives >> in the attempt to give the "atmosphere" is often a mark of a nice >> 80,000 word novel hidden in a 150,000 (or 300,000!) word tome. There's a difference between padding and good description. You seem to know the difference; I wish more writers would leave out the padding, but I also wish more writers would put in good description. I think dht may be correct about the impact of television and our sensibilities. >> It's bloody well harder to do what you need to do in 100 words >> than 1000. Amen. >> Adjectives are all to often waste space, trying to force us to >> see what the author has not been able to imagine clearly enough >> him(her)self: because if the imagination is clear enough, the >> real details will carry without them. Uh, yes and no. Many times the imagination IS flabby, leaving us with bland description that attempts to FORCE the image. On the other hand, other writers seem to have a fine imagination; I just wish they would use description that evokes what they see so that I could see it, too. >> This is your last para: "Our adjectives are leaving us, slowly >> and surely, and they sail away on a rusty freighter flying a >> plague flag, out of the dying port of a nation conquered one >> hundred years ago in a horrible war of on attrition and >> starvation, sailing into a polluted sunset over an oily sea." >> This is a nice example of what can be done with adjectives: >> (forgive me) overwritten, daubed over with sentiment, painted in >> garish colors like Socialist Realism paintings above Lenin's >> tomb. But (if these shipboard adjectives were characters), it >> would tell us nothing about them: it doesn't make us see the >> sunset better (a polluted sunset often has the most wonderful >> colors), it doesn't tell us how *they* feel about the war (why >> are they leaving? are they the conquerors or the conquered?), >> and it tugs at our gut level emotional response like a collie >> puppy in a pet-store display. Far better to make a story from >> what a character thinks, feels, and believes than to have to get >> one's effects through tricks that put one in mind of the oncoming >> trains in a 3D movie. Oh, come on, let's not give Socialist Realism that good a name. For effect, it wasn't bad. Make it "...port of a long conquered nation, sailing into..." and it's not that bad at all. It evokes a scene, (gaudy, true), and sets up all the questions you ask. Yes, to go on and convey the feelings and thoughts of the characters is important, but so is an emotional context. > Bravo, Davis Tucker. After reading his thought provoking essay > on description, I slowly climbed out of my chair, crossed the > cluttered hovel that is my home, and pulled some of the dust > covered books from the makeshift shelf where they rest. Of the > tattered, dogeared books which I love and re-read the most, not a > one lack the element of description so important to conveying an > interesting (or not so interesting) idea into a very interesting > story. Congratulations. Yours is the first entry in the non-annual Imitation Davis Tucker Contest. > But not in books! When a woman is described in a screen play as > "beautiful", you ask Casting for a lot of beautiful women and the > author looks over all of them, until he finds the one who is > "perfect". But when you say "beautiful" in a book without any > other description, the author has one picture in mind, the reader > cannot help but form another picture, and communication is lost. > The author loses control over his story. Instead of telling us > stories about giants and armies marching across blood-stained > fields or of gleaming spaceships racing across a starry sky, the > storyteller is doing nothing except putting words on paper for > money. Agreed on the first part. The trick is to find those specific images that will make the reader think the woman is beautiful. But storytellers are always doing nothing putting words on paper; the trick is in finding which words. (Hmm, sounds like a Lazarus Long aphorism.) Jim Brunet {ihnp4, decvax}!ima!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb jimb at ima/*cca-unix.arpa ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: reply about criticism Date: 14 Jan 86 19:28:00 GMT >> I'll agree with your uncertainty. It does seem that, on one >> hand, one can't review adequately unless one understands the >> writing process from the inside. On the other hand, a review by >> an unsuccessful writer is suspect to envy and jealousy if it's a >> negative review, or ass-kissing if it's a positive review. In >> either event, the audience/author can ask, "Who is *s/he* to >> criticize the work?" A review by a peer, a seasoned pro, is even >> more suspect to charges of jealousy/favoritism. >> = me, jimb > It's certainly not true that someone who can't create can't > adequately review or criticize. As long as pithy sayings are > bandied about, there is always, "I may not know what art is, but I > know what I like." I cannot draw or paint worth beans, but > occasionally my mother asks me to critique her latest painting. In > what seems like at least 80% of the time, she'll respond to my > critique with, "That's what my art teacher said." > > Saying that someone who can't write cannot criticize or > review a piece of writing is akin to saying that someone can't > fix a electrical appliance unless he knows how to invent one. > = Jerry Boyajian Uh, wait a minute. Knowing whether or not you *like* something is different from having the capacity to criticize it. In general, I don't care for modern art -- my tastes are pretty representational, not abstract. However, after dutifully watching one of the PBS series on modern art ("The Shock of the New"?), I understood more about it and had my opinion of *some* works/artists changed, e.g., Kadinsky. I have had similar revisions of liking some literature after having had a guided tour, e.g., Joyce, Faulkner; on the otherhand I can't bring myself to like other work even after such an experience, e.g. Smollett, Richardson, Trollope (yechhh!). It seems to me that to be a critic, you have to have some understanding of what the author is intending, even if you don't sympathize. In the case of you and your mother's paintings, you obviously have the understanding, whether your education has been formal or by osmosis or both. Note that the examples I used involve the issue of accessibility. Many people will not like a work simply because it is not easily accessible (I sense that this is at the crux of the Dhalgren argument, but since I haven't read it, I'm staying out of that one). It's easy to say "I don't like a work" if its not accessible, but I don't know that that constitutes fair criticism. (I also think that accessibility is critical fair game, e.g., "Did the author need to make the work as inaccessible as it is?" -- more fuel for the Dhalgren folk.) >> Very few people (I think) would argue that a Spiderman comic book >> is superior to FINNEGAN'S WAKE, but relatively few people will >> read FW instead of the comic book. > That would depend on who wrote the Spiderman comic book. If it > was Alan Moore, than chances are that I *would* argue that it was > better than FINNEGAN'S WAKE. Not being a minimalist, I find it difficult to find anything worthwhile in something as limited as a comic-book script, and certainly not on more than an extraordinary occasional basis. If I could pry my elitist pre-conceptions aside, I *would* be interested to hear your arguments. Jim Brunet {ihnp4, decvax}!ima!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb jimb at ima/*cca-unix.arpa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Jan 86 0854-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #19 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 20 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 19 Today's Topics: Books - Bradley & Brust & Haldeman & McCaffrey & Robinson & The Flying Sorcerors (2 msgs) & The Nebula Ballot, Radio - Douglas Adams, Miscellaneous - Origin of "Bladerunner" (3 msgs) & Neuromantics & Descriptions (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Jan 86 08:39:40 PST (Friday) From: JOConnell.ES@xerox.com Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest/Darkover Requests Just received the latest copy of the Darkover Newsletter #31 from MZB Enterprises, P.O. Box 72, Berkeley, CA 94701. Contents include a letter from MZB, letters to the group and MZB, a logic puzzle, a "complete" list of the Works of MZB (including current and future releases), a listing of Darkover fan groups, bookstore, etc., and a manuscript contest/subscription form for future newsletters. They hope to publish quarterly and continue the Darkover Newsletter format as published in past issues. Jim O'Connell (JOConnell.es@XEROX.COM) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jan 86 10:53 PST From: Dave Platt Subject: Greatful Dead references in Brokedown Palace? Ok... I'm not a Deadhead... but my curiosity is aroused. Would some Deadhead/SF-Lover who has read Brokedown Palace post a list of the references within that book to any and all Grateful Dead albums, lyrics, song titles, graphics, etc.? In politeness to others... if you post anything on this subject to SF-Lovers, consider putting a "SPOILER WARNING" at the beginning, if appropriate. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 17 Jan 1986 12:36:59-PST From: winalski%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Paul S. Winalski) Subject: Gay society in Haldeman's THE FOREVER WAR As I recall the story, the predominately gay society in THE FOREVER WAR did not result because of government encouragement to promote population control. Rather, it evolved from the use of artificial insemination and artificial wombs for procreation. Pregnancy being undesireable in such a society, homosexual activity was preferred since it didn't require bothering with contraceptives. Gay sex became so prevalent that eventually heterosexuality was regarded as perverted. The main character in THE FOREVER WAR grew up in an earlier phase of society in our near future, where heterosexuality was the rule. The members of the homosex society nickname him "the old queer." PSW ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!oyster@caip.rutgers.edu (Vicious Oyster) Subject: Re: more sexual stuff Date: 17 Jan 86 15:49:36 GMT farren@well.UUCP (Mike Farren) writes: > In reference to the question of whether dragonriders necessarily >mated when their dragons did, I offer the following quote from >"Dragondrums": ><< "Menolly?" He turned to her, hands outstretched, palms up, > pleading with her and apologizing for what he knew was about to > happen since there were only the two of them on this becalmed > boat in the middle of the windstill sea. >... >And this was only fire lizards! Seriously, I think it is quite >obvious that dragons and riders mate simultaneously. This was made >clear in the first book, and has not been contradicted since. I guess I'm *still* obtuse. I read the phrase "was about to happen since there were only the two of them" as "sure, dragonriders get excessively horny when their mounts mount (sorry ;-), and need sexual release, but it ("The Act") can happen with any old person who happens to be around." Still, when I reread the books (I only read the first 4-5), I'll allow myself to be open to your interpretation. Joel ({allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster) ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 1986 16:02:25 EST (Wed) From: Dan Hoey Subject: NIGHT OF POWER by Spider Robinson Spider Robinson's new novel is out in paperback. NIGHT OF POWER is a near-future look at the prognosis for racial conflict in the United States. It's got startlingly realistic cultural and technological extrapolation, full of the usual Spider loving kindness and tender philosophy, leavened with an unusual amount of sex and violence. People whose stomachs will not take the S&V are to be pitied, for they will miss a good read. People who *like* S&V will be teased, but not spoiled, by the information that he describes an achingly beautiful first orgasm, and the most imaginative homicide I have ever heard of. For those of you who want to see slant labels on their sex, let me warn you that the sex is all hetero, and touches on (and occasionally fondles) prostitution, rape, pubescents, adultery, and (gasp) miscegenation. This notice is a transparent excuse for offering my opinion that people who want sexual orientation labels on book covers have their head in the sand or worse. I'd rather that novelists feel free to include whatever form of sexuality will serve their theme, but that warning labels be required on the dull, trite, boring, unreadable, stupid slush that fills ninety percent of the bookshelves. Which is harder to identify with, characters full of lust for members of their own sex, or characters full of nothing at all? I am glad to see that Spider, famed nemesis of the Hax of Sol III, has taken the initiative in instituting my scheme of warnings. The absence of inanity labels on NIGHT OF POWER is true truth in advertising. Dan ------------------------------ Subject: Flying Sorcerers Date: 17 Jan 86 11:21:33 PST (Fri) From: Dave Godwin The god Musk-Watz has gotta be Stanley Moscowitz, an editor/writer of years past. He was quite verbose, cranking out essays and the like on the nature of science fiction and society by the bundle ( thus earning the title of Wind God ). Fine-line is a type of high quality machine pencil, a favorite brand used by engineer types; I don't think it has anything to do with RAH. Dorthi, the wizard who gets fallen on by Purple ( who then gets Dorthi's robe and shoes ) is indeed a poke at The Wizard of Oz. Did you not notice the puns around and about the flying machine ? It was named the CatHawk ( Lant yelling "The CatHawk has landed !!" ), and was built by the brothers Wilville and Orbur ( Wilbur and Orville Wright and the Kittyhawk... ). 'As a color; shade of purple-grey' ? Yeah, right. Dave Godwin Dept. of I&CS University of California, Irvine ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 86 18:00:49 PST From: lah%miro@BERKELEY.EDU (Commander RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Flying Sorcerous Ghods! "Furman" aka Edward L. Ferman, has been editor of F&SF for some time; before him his father was also editor (but I can't recall his first name). Musk-Watz is Leo Moskowitz (sp?) author of _The Screaming Sky_ or something like that... Tukker is Wilson Tucker Quinn -- Chelsea Quinn Yarbro? Pull'nissin, aka Poul Anderson is god of duels, I suspect for having been in the Society for Creative Anachronism, where he is a knight. As everyone knows, Poup is good fertiliser (:-) I'm told, by the way, that this discussion has come up before, and is doubtless archived... Regards, Leigh Ann ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Preliminary 1985 Nebula Ballot Date: 15 Jan 86 17:32:00 GMT The preliminary Nebula ballot is out; for those who are interested, following is a list of the front runners. The format is: (Category) (# of works nominated) (TITLE, Author) (# of nominations) I've listed the the top x# of works in each category. Novel (152) ENDER'S GAME, Orson Scott Card (42) DINNER AT DEVIANT'S PALACE, Tim Powers (23) THE REMAKING OF SIGMUND FREUD, Barry Malzberg (19) ANCIENT OF DAYS, Michael Bishop (18) BLOOD MUSIC, Greg Bear (18) HELLICONIA WINTER, Brian W. Aldiss (18) THE POSTMAN, David Brin (18) IN THE DRIFT, Michael Swanick (13) SCHISMATRIX, Bruce Sterling (13) ARTIFACT, Gregory Benford (12) CHILD OF FORTUNE, Norman Spinrad (12) FOOTFALL, Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle (12) Others of note based on net traffic: BRIGHTNESS FALLS FROM THE AIR, James Tiptree, Jr. (10) ALWAYS COMING HOME, Ursula LeGuin (10) EON, Greg Bear (9) THE BOOK OF KELLS, R.A. MacAvoy (7) TO REIGN IN HELL, Steven Brust, aka SKZB (7) THE CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS, Robert Heinlein (5) CONTACT, Carl Sagan (millyuns and millyuns, er, 4) FLIGHT FROM NEVERYON, Samuel R. Delany (4) LIBERTY'S WORLD, Lee Killough (4) ROBOTS AND EMPIRE, Isaac Asimov (3) TRUMPS OF DOOM, Roger Zelazny (3) GALAPAGOS, Kurt Vonnegut (2) Novella (28) SAILING TO BYZANTIUM, Robert Silverberg (21) IASFM, Feb. THE ONLY NEAT THING TO DO, James Tiptree, Jr. (18) F&SF, Oct. 24 VIEWS OF MT. FUJI, BY HOKUSAI, Roger Zelazny (15) IASFM, Jul. THE GORGON FIELD, Kate Wilhelm (13) IASFM, Aug. DUKE PASQUALE'S RING, Avram Davidson (12) Amaz., May GREEN DAYS IN BRUNEI, Bruce Sterling (12) IASFM, Oct. GREEN MARS, Kim Stanley Robinson (12) IASFM, Sept. Novelette (101) THE FRINGE, Orson Scott Card (27) F&SF, Oct. THE JAGUAR HUNTER, Lucius Shepard (20) F&SF, May WITH VIRGIL ODDUM AT THE EAST POLE, Harlan Ellison (19) Omni, Jan. DOGFIGHT, Michael Swanick & William Gibson (17) Omni, Jul. PORTRAITS OF HIS CHILDREN, George R.R. Martin (16) IASFM, Nov. SOLSTICE, James Patrick Kelly (15) IASFM, Jul Short Story (267) PALADIN OF THE LOST HOUR, Harlan Ellison (20) UNIVERSE; TZ, Dec. OUT OF ALL THEM BRIGHT STARS, Nancy Kress (14) F&SF, Mar. THE WAR AT HOME, Lewis Shiner (14) IASFM, May FLYING SAUCER ROCK AND ROLL, Edward Waldrop (12) Omni, Jan. THE GODS OF MARS, Gardner Dozois, Jack Dann, (12) Omni, Mar. & Michael Swanick TOURISTS, Lisa Goldstein (12) IASFM, Feb. DINNER IN AUDOGHAST, Bruce Sterling (11) IASFM, May GODEL'S DOOM, George Zebrowski (11) Popular Computing, Feb; F&SF, Feb. 86 MENGELE, Lucius Shepard (11) UNIVERSE Minor comments: With the number of nominations in each category, it's obvious that almost everything published in a major 'zine got at least one nomination. Also, since many SFWA members don't have/take the time to read widely, there's a lot of nominations for people they know and/or admire. Jim Brunet {ihnp4, decvax}!ima!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb jimb at ima/*cca-unix.arpa ------------------------------ From: ISM780!dianeh@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Douglas Adams on KCRW Date: 16 Jan 86 03:42:00 GMT For those of you in the LA area, Douglas Adams is going to be on KCRW (89.9 FM) on Monday, Jan 20 at 2:00p.m. on a show called Castaway. KCRW plays alot of NPR stuff, but I'm not sure if this is a local show or not. If it is, those of you not in the LA area are sort of out of luck; if it isn't then it might be an NPR station in your area. Check your local NPR station's guide. I've never listened to Castaway before, but from what I gathered from the announcement for it, it's an interview show that asks the guest what they'd [take with them, do] if they were castaway on a deserted island. On the other hand, I'm suffering from major work overload accompanied by brain burn-out, so I may have gotten that part wrong. The date and time, however, I'm sure about. Diane Holt Interactive Systems Corp. ima!ism780!dianeh ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 86 08:59 PST From: Hank Shiffman Subject: "Bladerunner" query >From: Vince.Fuller@C.CS.CMU.EDU >Does anyone out in netland have a clue as to the etymology of the >word "bladerunner"?...Does PKD's "Do Androids Dream of Electric >Sheep" explain the word? I'd really be curious to hear what people >have to say about it... As I recall, Dick never used the word. The producers of the film came up with it. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jan 86 09:56:05 PST (Friday) Subject: Re: "Bladerunner" query From: Dewing.osbunorth@xerox.com >Does anyone out in netland have a clue as to the etymology of the >word "bladerunner"? Someone who is always running on the edge of ... destruction, death, madness, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 86 16:43:44 est From: stormwatch@borax.lcs.mit.edu (Mark L. Lambert) Subject: BladeRunner origins Interesting question; I hadn't thought about it 'til now. Perhaps the word "Bladerunner" alludes to an assassin-like style of work ("running a blade" through some poor replicant in a dark alley). The word would then have negative connotations, which ties in with some of the themes in the movie and the book it was based on. Still, it's at odds with the official title of their work ("retirement"). markl ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jan 86 12:20:01 PST (Friday) From: Caro.PA@xerox.com Subject: Neuromantics or Cyberpunks? The most recent Locus contained a letter from John Shirley rebutting a review of the so called "Cyberpunk" panel at Houston NASFIC(?). Apparantly there was a ruckus and a walkout. I've read both the review and the letter. Anyone know any more details? More importantly, Shirley made some pretty dramatic statments about "The Movement". Something about "... With the arrival of The Movement, science fiction is unbound." [this quote is to my best recollection and is probably inaccurate]. I recall that Rudy Rucker, Bruce Sterling, John Shirley were on the panel, but I don't remember who the other "cyberpunks" were. Actually, like Shirley, I prefer the term "Neuromantics", coined by Spinrad, just because it is such a neat word. I have no idea what, or who, it is supposed to represent. I have never read anything by any of the authors who were on the panel, although just yesterday I went out and bought "Master of Time & Space" by Rucker, and "Three Ring Psychus" by Shirley, just to see what this is all about. Can anyone enlighten me as to what all the commotion is about, and who, or what are the Neuromantics? Another New Wave on the New Wave? Perry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 86 9:46:30 EST From: Joel B Levin Subject: Re: adjectives and descriptions I make no pretense of being either a writer or a literary critic (but I know what I like :-)). I favor a writing style more sparse than otherwise, as I believe that in skilled hands it doesn't take a lot of words to establish atmosphere or mood. I have always been fond of Mark Twain's aphorism from Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar (this is a close enough quotation to deserve the marks): "As to the adjective: when in doubt, strike it out." This is not to say that pure description cannot be beautiful literature. My favorite example is the opening chapter of Dickens's _Bleak_House_. JBL arpanet: Levin@bbncc2.arpa uucp: {ihnp4 and others}!bbncca!levin ------------------------------ From: ISM780!dianeh@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Replay to Davis Tucker re: adjective Date: 15 Jan 86 03:11:00 GMT >Hemingway -- no slouch of a writer there -- consciously avoided the >use of adjectives. And did it completely intentionally: (although >I can't find the reference right now, so this won't be a direct >quote)... That wouldn't be the famous "Cut the crap.", would it? >I think he went too far... Noooooo..."The sky was blue. The sea was blue. The man was old. The fish was big..." Great stuff! On the other hand, there *is* Margaret Mitchell, so maybe Ernest wasn't too far off... Write the way you want to write, and if people like it, they'll read it. It's a big world out there -- plenty of room for Hemingways *and* Mitchells. Diane Holt Interactive Systems Corp. ima!ism780!dianeh ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Jan 86 0915-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #20 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 20 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 20 Today's Topics: Books - Foster & Heinlein & McCaffrey (2 msgs) & Zelazny & Star Trek, Television - Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Bladerunner (3 msgs) & Description (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Saturday, 18 Jan 1986 01:45:20-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Spellsinger & Sector General > From: Mark F. Rand > Anybody read the SpellSinger series?? It's by Piers Anthony. A > fantasy book. So far there are 5 books in the series. The Spellsinger series is by Alan Dean Foster, not Piers Anthony. And it's only a 5-volume (so far) work if you buy the paperbacks. I have the hardcover first editions from Phantasia Press, and the first book, SPELLSINGER AT THE GATE, was split into two books for paperback. > Are there any new Sector General books around?? (James (??) > White) New as of when? What was the latest one you read? --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ From: hhb!rob@caip.rutgers.edu (Robert R Stegmann) Subject: A second chance for Heinlein Date: 16 Jan 86 15:22:55 GMT A number of my friends share my interest in Science Fiction, and have maintained despite my protests to the contrary that Robert Heinlein is a master of the genre. My negative opinion was formed after I had read a few of his works that were readily available in bookstores. I have since heard that many believe him to have suffered a degeneration of his writing powers associated with a medical problem, which had recently cleared up, but that in any case his early works were much better than his later stuff. Unwilling to be close-minded, I accepted some of his earlier novels on loan from a friend, and to my surprise, enjoyed them. Now, I'm going to summarize my *opinions* below. Please don't ignite your burners until after you read my request which follows. Works of Heinlein I have read and *disliked* include: _Number of the Beast_ - plot? what plot? ending? what ending? _Friday_ - shallow, thin and cute (which describes the story, as well as the protagonist) _Starship Troopers_ - degenerates into a philosophy lecture, which, if I wanted to read for recreation, I would specifically look for in a philosophy book. _Expanded Universe_ - well, I read this a while ago, but the impression I recall is of dated material, none of which holds up as well as say, Asimov's _Stranger in a Strange Land_ - strange, all right - not the type of stuff I prefer Furthermore, I have already received recommendations against _Time Enough For Love_ _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_ and _Job, a Comedy of Justice_ Heinlein I have read and *liked* include: _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ _Double Star_ In both of these, the plot moves right along, without significant philosophical digressions, and without the strange cute banter I had come to expect. Both were published in the late fifties or early sixties. Without engendering a debate about whether the above opinions are valid or not (because, after all, they are admittedly only *my* opinions), I would like to solicit suggestions as to what other Heinlein I might like. Expecting useful suggestions would most likely come from those who share my preferences, I have stated them. Please respond by email, to the address below or that in the header. And, as they say, adTHANKSvance. rob Robert R. Stegmann {allegra,ihnp4,decvax}!philabs!anwar!rob ------------------------------ From: ihlpg!tainter@caip.rutgers.edu (Tainter) Subject: Re: more sexual stuff Date: 17 Jan 86 17:25:44 GMT >> Hmmm... I'll have to read [the Dragon Riders of Pern] books >> again. I didn't at all catch the implication that when dragons >> mated, the 'riders did also. Was I exceedingly obtuse both times >> I read the books, or did others also not make this >> connection/assumption? >> Joel ({allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster) > by tradition) the riders necessarily mated with each other. I > think McCaffrey left that up to our imaginations -- and we all > know what trouble that can get us in :-) !!! Barb For the most part this was left up to us.. However, If you read Moretta (admittedly not actually part of the trilogy) you will encounter not only an explicate case, but some discussion of this predeliction. Also in the trilogy there are allusions to *strong* attractions carried over from dragon interrelations to their riders. There is also discussion of the NEED for women in the weyrs with a predisposition toward variety in their relations. Some of this was a suggestion of abnormality in overly stable attachments (e.g. F'nor to Brekke). ------------------------------ From: decuac!avolio@caip.rutgers.edu (Frederick M. Avolio) Subject: Re: more sexual stuff (Dragonriders) Date: 19 Jan 86 21:33:32 GMT ix241@sdcc6.UUCP (ix241) writes: > McCaffrey has never been explicit. However, one of the > 'differences' of dragonriders from other Pern dwellers concerned > their sexual mores. The male riders of the female greens tended > to bond with the riders of blues. (see incident witnessed by > Piemar in _Dragondrums_) Regarding Dragons... Males are Blue, Bronze, and Brown. Females are Green and Gold, the latter being the Queens. The Green females are rendered sterile by use of firestone. (This is a rock on Pern... not to be confused with the tire company which probably doesn't have any such effect.) Now, since only males impress dragons with the exception of the queens who impress females, the only case of the possibility of men getting .. shall we say "worked up?" ... over other men would be in the case of green dragons going into heat. Is there an instance of that mentioned in any of the books? I wonder, since "Greens are rendered sterile through a sex-linked disability triggered by chronic use of firestone," (which is why Queens never chew firestone) might it not affect them further? Fred @ DEC Ultrix Applications Center {decvax,seismo,cbosgd}!decuac!avolio ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 86 00:24:00 EDT From: "Bob Mende [NB]" Subject: Unicorn Variations A few days ago I was in a SF bookstore in New York City and I picked up a new book by Roger Zelazny. The Book is titled 'Unicorn Variations' and is a collection of short stories. I have seen a few of the stories before but most of them are new to the reader. The book is published by Sphere Book (London) and is not yet available on the US market. This book is a MUST for all SF readers. The short essays before each story tell how and why each story was written. Bob Mende Arpanet: mende@aim.rutgers.edu UUCP : topaz!unirot!mende ------------------------------ From: tjalk!dick@caip.rutgers.edu (Dick Grune) Subject: Star Trek fanzine addresses sought Date: 18 Jan 86 16:50:58 GMT My wife asks me to post the following: Could someone tell me name and address of a shop or magazine centre where I could order magazine-published fan Star Trek stories? I mean stories by Jacqueline Lichtenberg, Jean Lorrah, Sonni Cooper and people like them. Or perhaps I could take out a subscription to some fan magazines, if any are willing to mail to Europe. Lili Ossendrijver, Trompenburg 7, 1181 NM Amstelveen, the Netherlands. Answers to net.sf-lovers or to ..!decvax!mcvax!vu44!dick will reach us, but unfortunately net.startrek does NOT come to Europe (at least as far as people at our installation know) Dick Grune Vrije Universiteit ------------------------------ Subject: Re: trek question Date: 18 Jan 86 21:46:57 PST (Sat) From: Jim Hester Re Chris Durham's query about the age of the Enterprise: The years referred to by Khan would most likely be those of the planet on which he was stranded. These could be enough less than standard years to account for the discrepency. Especially since the orbit of the planet was messed up after Kirk and Co. left him there. ------------------------------ Date: 18-Jan-1986 1504 From: kevin%logic.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Re: "Bladerunner" query > I don't recall any reference to the word in "Do Androids...", but > there definitely is a novel called "Bladerunner" by William S. > Burroughs (that great neglected S.F.-writer) that came out before > the movie. and > It is my understanding that they stole the title for the movie. (different messages). Ridley Scott in fact liked the title ``Bladerunner'' so much that he purchased the film rights to the novel so that he could use the title for his filming of ``Do Androids Dream of Electronic Sheep?'' without upsetting anybody. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1986 20:07 EST From: INGRIA%OZ.AI.MIT.EDU@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU Subject: Burroughs and Bladerunner >From: lars at cartan.BERKELEY.EDU (Lars Andersson) >I don't recall any reference to the word in "Do Androids...", but >there definitely is a novel called "Bladerunner" by William S. >Burroughs (that great neglected S.F.-writer) that came out before >the movie. The title is @i[Blade Runner (a movie)]. Calling it a novel is a bit of an overstatement. As the title indicates, it is more of a sketch for a movie. It is also pretty brief (only 74 pages with lots of white space and sketches of movie film). >From: sdcrdcf!markb at caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar) > There is a SF novel by Alan Norse called "Bladerunner". This is also the source of the Burroughs book. From the copyright page: The author wishes to thank Alan E. Nourse, upon whose book @i(The Blade Runner), characters and situations in this book are based. Also, @i(Bladerunner) [the Scott movie] had, somewhere in its credits, acknowledgements to BOTH Nourse and Burroughs. Interestingly enough, there is ANOTHER movie called @i(Blade Runner); this one is based on the Burroughs book. However, it is only about 15 minutes long, only encompasses part of Burrough's treatment, and concludes with a note advising the viewer to watch out for Blade Runner, Part 2. I don't know if this second movie was ever made. I've certainly never seen it. >In the world depicted in the novel all medical care by law is done >at government run clinics and hospitals. The law also says that if >you need medical care and are found to have any "undesirable" >genetic traits they sterilize you. Most people thus try not to go >to a clinic until they have had kids. Some doctors are rebeling >against this law by secretly providing medical care on the black >market. A "Bladerunner" is a black market supplier of illegal >medical supplies. From @i[Blade Runner (a movie)]: Essential to underground medicine are the blade runners, who transfer the actual drugs, instruments and equipment from the suppliers to the clients and doctors and underground clinics. ... Every underground doctor needs a blade runner, since possession of illegal surgical instruments and drugs is a felony for a doctor, as evidence of illegal practice, but a misdemeanor for a private citizen. >It is my understanding that they stole the title for the movie. Well, they did credit Nourse and Burroughs, albeit in a somewhat cryptic fashion. However, this does bring up a question that has been bothering me for a while. I can understand why producers (or whoever) would want to change the title of works that they bought. For example, given the general film noire/hard boiled detective feel of the movie, I can understand why they might not want to use the original title, @i(Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?), since it is a humorous title, at odds with the character of the film. Fine. But why use the title of ANOTHER novel, rather than inventing a new title? This is not the first time this has happened. Fritz Lieber's @i(Conjure Wife) was filmed as @i(Burn, Witch, Burn!), the title of a novel by A. Merritt. Anybody know of any other examples of this? Or why it gets done? Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jan 86 20:39 EST From: Mark Purtill Subject: Re: "Bladerunner" Cc: <@RED.RUTGERS.EDU:sdcrdcf!markb@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU> (Mark Biggar) >[Mark Biggar writes:] >There is a SF novel by Alan Norse called "Bladerunner". [...] It >is my understanding that they stole the title for the movie. No, they bought it. Just the title, so any movie moguls out there who want to buy the book, can. Of course you'll have to find a new title.... I remember this because Nourse but a little blurb in (I think) Locus saying just that. Apparently there were rumors that they'd bought the whole book and just used the title. Mark Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA 2-229 MIT Cambrige MA 02139 ------------------------------ From: ISM780!dianeh@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Re: Charlie Martin on Description Date: 15 Jan 86 04:42:00 GMT >...A character *is* defined by more than what they do and what they >think - Would Cyrano de Bergerac be as fascinating if he didn't >have a big nose and everybody had always made jokes about it? No. Not only would he not be as fascinating, he also wouldn't be the person he is. >A character is a plurality, and like any human being, to describe >them fully is important - and this also includes physical >description. It certainly alters my perception if a character is >ugly or beautiful, or short or tall. It's not only a question of filling in the details in order to be able to get a better picture of how that character looks, it's also a question of being better able to *understand* the character -- who he is and how he got to be that way. We would have a much harder time being able to understand, or accept, Cyrano's insecurities (and the panache he developed to cover them) if he hadn't been given that protruding proboscis we've come to know and love (or if the author had neglected to mention it!). >You may say that this is unimportant; I think we have all accepted >that in life, as the feminists have taught us, it is unfair to >consider such outward attributes as sex or appearance. But we are >not blind, deaf, and dumb, and we react toward physical appearance >in certain ways, ways which authors should know and use. On the other hand, if the character's physical appearance had little to do with their development, giving a detailed description of their physical appearance not only seems superfluous, but also limits the possibility of each reader being able to create their own image of how that character looks. The degree to which a character is described physically should be determined by its importance to the understanding of that character. >Davis Tucker Diane Holt Interactive Systems Corp. ima!ism780!dianeh ------------------------------ Date: Sat 18 Jan 86 13:15:37-PST From: Lynn Gold Subject: on writing Rather than tell you why you *should* use less adjectives and more verbs, let me show you an example: 1. With adjectives: As he ran through the wet brown mud in the dark of night, his only source of light was the whitish moonlight coming from the dark sky above as he continued to run away from the red car that was running after him. 2. With *descriptive* nouns and verbs: As he trudged through the mud in the moonlight, the Corvette roared after him, gleaming like a fire engine. Note that unless you count "fire engine" as an adjective followed by a noun, rather than a compound word, there are no adjectives in the second example. Note that they both convey approximately the same amount of information, yet the second example is only half as long as the first example. Lynn ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 21 Jan 86 0916-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #21 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 21 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 21 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Nourse & Tepper & Title Request (2 msgs) & A Review & A Request for Reviews, Miscellaneous - Descriptions & Bladerunner (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon 20 Jan 86 10:41:47-EST From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #16 > Someone else thought that Jhereg and Yendi were set in Fairie > since BP was in a land "east of Fairie" and concluded that this > was the land that humans lived in Jhereg and Yendi. However there > is no evidence of Witchcraft in BP....so unless Fairie is also > part of the human lands ( where there is Witchcraft or is it > sorcery? I'm not sure what the difference is ) then there seems to > be an inconsistancy....something I don't expect from Brust. I > don't really know what any of this means..... The East isn't as homogenous a country as Fairie/Draegaria (spelling optional -- I don't have the book here.) During the early part of Brokedown Palace there were foreign raiders tromping around. Witchcraft could well come from elsewhere. Or it could be practiced secretly. It usually is secret in most parts of most worlds. [Random speculation warning] By the way, Vlad's last name is Taltos. The magic horse or whatever in BP was called a taltos horse. There might be some connection beyond the vagaries of naming; e.g., if "taltos" means "magic", perhaps Vlad's ancestors were or practiced magic. Perhaps they were exiled for it, even. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 86 01:28:24 EST (Mon) Subject: Re "Bladerunner" as a title ==> Alan E. Nourse From: ted%bragg1@braggfs Speaking of Nourse, I haven't seen any thing by him in quite a while. Does anyone know if he is still alive and writing? I must have read _Raiders From the Rings_ 50 times while I was growing up, he wrote some other great juveniles too. Ted Nolan ted@braggfs ------------------------------ From: Michael O'Brien Date: 20 Jan 86 11:32:21 PST (Mon) Subject: Marianne, the Magus, and the Mantichore It is encouraging to note that the wave of writers influenced in their youth by J.R.R. Tolkien is still building. Encouraging not because of the glut on the market of derivative fantasy, but because their numbers have swollen to the point that some few who are actually good writers are beginning to leave derivation behind and to find their own voices. H. P. Lovecraft began by writing story cycles which were derivative of Dunsany, but found a very distinctive voice of his own. Sheri S. Tepper is such a writer. Beginning with a series of novels about the Land of the True Game, which could be viewed as science fiction, she has moved in a different direction with her latest work, "Marianne, the Magus, and the Mantichore". This is a true fantasy, but set in contemporary America, at an East Coast college. Marianne is supported in her studies by her snake of a brother, who controls her inheritance until she is thirty (!) or until she marries. Marianne discovers that her family is related to the Prime Minister of the tiny European country of Alphenlicht, when Prime Minister Makr Avehl comes to the U. S. to speak and to play at the diplomatic dance. This setting is left behind in the second part of the book, as Marianne involuntarily enters a series of "shadow worlds", pursued by Makr Avehl as her would-be rescuer. One of the two most noteworthy items about this book is its characters, which are, while not as fully-fleshed as in works by Austen, Tolstoy or Solzhenitsyn, are nevertheless much more real than one tends to find in contemporary fantastic literature. Secondly is the character of the shadow worlds. These are actually external representations of psychological nightmares. It has been a long, long time since a fantasy world managed to evoke horror in me as well as wonder, and Tepper has done it. On this basis alone, I highly recommend this book. Finally, I'd like to note that many publishers have taken to publishing short biographies of the writers at the rear of paperback books as well as hardcovers. I applaud this, because, having personally met many writers, I like the feeling of reality and connectedness that a biography gives. Unfortunately, Ms. Tepper's publisher is not so enlightened. Therefore, an appeal: Does anyone out there in netland have any biographical information about Sheri S. Tepper? ------------------------------ From: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu (Michaelntz) Subject: Desperately Seeking Certain Novel Date: 19 Jan 86 19:21:00 GMT Here's a very obscure request, for a book I read about a decade ago - I found it in my local library - and have been unable to discover since. It's an historical novel concerning the conquering of the pagan European tribes by the Roman legions. The hero is the king of the pagan tribes; his name is Caradoc. The book follows the path of Caradoc as he organizes the defense of the tribes and the old way of life against the immense military might of the Romans. It is very long, descriptive, and quite beautiful. I've been thinking about this book, and looking for it in vain, for about 8 years now. Obviously, I dont remember the author or title. But Caradoc is definitely the protagonist's name. If anyone can give me an author or title for this I hereby vow to turn over half my winnings when I win the New York State Lotto 48 game this week (pot is currently up over $40 million). Thanks in advance to my rescuer, michael krantz ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 20 Jan 1986 02:03:56-PST From: cesani%mlncsc.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: book info req. Years ago before Stasheff brought out his "warlock .. " series I read a book strangely similar to the first of the series (warlock in spite of himself). It too was about terran intervention in a medieval society and finding out that some other civilization had the same idea. Does anybody remember title and other pertinent info? Thanks. Giorgio Cesani ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 20 Jan 1986 02:16:08-PST From: cesani%mlncsc.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: last legionary quartet rewiew (negative) I would have preferred by-passing this one. Science is handled as the following two cases show: 1)on an airless moon a baddie is distracted by the sound of the overhead passage of a starship 2)a civilization with starships cannot find a planet in an "anomalous" orbit till it's seen in the night sky and is near enough to interfere gravitationally plot is : a)hero captured b)villain explains his plans/secrets c)hero escapes normally the "deus ex machina way" usually against one or two hundred baddies d)hero foils the bad guys plan e)back to a. for another round usual things thrown in hero is last of his race (last of the mohicans) bad guys are also bad looking good guys monitor how civilization is running (mentor of arisia) My main worry is that there may be a follow up as the ending is open for one and by the time I may have forgotten all about the first volume by then. The main reason for this flame is to suggest a place where to put negative reviews of this type so it can be consulted before risking on new authors. I do not want to miss the new greats of the field but I would prefer to have a filter somewhere to avoid the necessity of being burned 9 times to find a good 10th author. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 86 09:14:10 PST (Monday) Subject: Reviews? From: cate3.EIS@xerox.com Has anyone read "Spinneret" by Timothy Zahn, or "True Voyaging" by George R. R. Martin, the books? Is there anything new in either book, or are they just reprints of the stories that appeared in Analog? Thanks. Henry III ------------------------------ From: druri!dht@caip.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker) Subject: More about description (or is this getting boring?) Date: 18 Jan 86 21:02:44 GMT >...When a woman is described in a screen play as "beautiful", you >ask Casting for a lot of beautiful women and the author looks over >all of them, until he finds the one who is "perfect". But when you >say "beautiful" in a book without any other description, the author >has one picture in mind, the reader cannot help but form another >picture, and communication is lost. The author loses control over >his story. Instead of telling us stories about giants and armies >marching across blood-stained fields or of gleaming spaceships >racing across a starry sky, the storyteller is doing nothing except >putting words on paper for money. What intrigues me very much is the "screenplay" approach to novel writing that has become very common these days. How many novels have you read in recent years that screamed out at the world "Soon To Be A Major Motion Picture"? The characters, even, are sometimes described in screenplay terms, very broad brushstrokes, not fine detail. This seems to be the case in modern art, versus classical, too. It is not that I find it so hard to accept, for all that I dislike it, but it is fascinating, the synergy that occurs between print and visual media, and increasingly now, audio media. If I thought that American television and film were assuming more of the traits of print, I would feel better about it, but it seems to be a one-way process (although the impact of the music video on film is very obvious). However, I think of such fine British television productions as "The Jewel In The Crown" from Scott's "Raj Quartet", "Reilly: Ace Of Spies", "Bleak House" from Dickens. So there is much encouragement, and even some bright spots in American television (vis a vis this print-like quality), such as "Moonlighting", "Mickey Spillane's Mike Hammer", "Murder She Wrote", and some other shows (all mostly detective type, and mimicking that genre of writing). I notice that there is very little control or restraint in American fiction lately, or American science fiction. This isn't a value judgement, as some uncontrolled fiction such as Thompson's and Burroughs' is very good, and in some ways a welcome change. Unfortunately, it's not a style that is suited to many writers - i.e., most authors need to control their stories and characters, and avoid this horrible tendency to let their characters get away from them. I find this especially salient in the growing numbers of series, in which an author, in essence, has allowed his audience and the economic pressure generated by such an audience to dictate the continuation of a series (something Doyle had to deal with, with Holmes). Readers in many cases of this type do not read for a given author, as in many cases (such as the Edgar Rice Burroughs novels) it is unimportant who writes it, as long as the characters and plots remain familiar. They read for a "world", or a story, or for characters that are sometimes more real to them than they are to the person who came up with the characters in the first place. And this may be because the audience has a more vivid imagination and more concern for such characters than the author. Which is a sad comment on the state of authorship in America, that while you may be destined to pumping gas, your character gains fame and fortune (there might be a good series in that somewhere, eh?). >Ideas are very easy. Plots are almost as easy, too. But true >story writing, putting words on paper which describes to aching >detail the action of the men in this world trying to achieve their >goals; turning a "beautiful woman" into a five foot two, red haired >beauty with soft green eyes, full lips, and a passion for abstract >geometry; these acts take the talent of a professional. I agree, but I doubt that many who read or write science fiction would acknowledge such a basic necessity. Detail is not what they want, or I imagine they would be reading and writing classics. Ideas, shorn of ornamentation, are what science fiction has, rightly or wrongly, built its foundation upon. Plots are often secondary, and characterization runs a distant third, by and large. Some would say that certain characters appeal to them immensely; and I do not disagree that a Lazarus Long or Paul Atreides or Thomas Covenant is appealing to many people. But this is not truly great characterization, the art and craft of making imaginary people come to life. Lazarus Long is at best Robert Heinlein shorn of his imperfections; a shame, because it would be nice to have such a character, the real RAH, flaws and all. But his only real "flaw" is boredom, hardly a flaw, especially in an immortal man. Thomas Covenant, at least, started out very interestingly, but became little more than a cipher for guilt, remorse, pained inaction, a symbol of the religous man in a quandary of faith. He stopped breathing after about a hundred pages, something I can't recall seeing in a book in a long time - a character becoming less and less interesting the more he is described. Atreides held the most promise, but then he became a god and it's a little difficult to construct a god with whom humans can empathize (unless they're Napoleon or Hitler). Science fiction generally presents archetypes, not characters. Perhaps that is why so little attention is paid to detail, because by definition, an archetype is understood by most people, even if subconsciously. The Warrior, the King, the Queen, the Jester, the Hero, the Coward, the Wizard... it seems that science fiction characterization (and to a greater extent, also fantasy) is a flipping-through of cards in a deck. For every complex, real, and most importantly, *science fiction-esque* character like Bester's Gully Foyle, there are thousands of Janissaries. Gene Wolfe's Severian was much more than a torturer, much more complex and strange and inscrutable than we have come to encounter in science fiction in a long time. Science fiction has the tools to create memorable characters, and to develop them in different ways than mainstream fiction can. Lucius Shephard, Bruce Sterling, William Gibson, K. W. Jeter and others are doing these things, basing their stories on the *people* in them. Shephard's Frank January is one of the best characters that has come alive in a short story in a long time. I link his appeal to critics and readers with his paramount ability to create characters that are real, flawed, and human. Screwups, thieves, losers, men filled with hatred, women who claw and children who kill - these are people, not some aphorism-spouting pontiff such as Muad'Dib or Lazarus Long. I hope that writers of this type do not get co-opted by the science fiction establishment in the manner of the promising writers of the '70s such as George R. R. Martin and John Varley, conned into generating hackwork with promises of greater pay, more convention appearances in front of adoring fans, winning Nebulas and Hugos which, in the end, mean nothing if the writing isn't any good by their own standards. It can happen. I hope it doesn't. Davis Tucker ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jan 86 09:39 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: "Bladerunner" Sorry, its not William S. Burroughs, its Alan Nourse. Its my understanding that the film makers bought the rights to the book because they liked the title so much. The book is late sixties, early seventies vintage. There is no resemblence between the book and the movie. Brett Slocum (Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 86 10:20:22 PST (Monday) Subject: "Bladerunner" query From: Couse.osbunorth@xerox.com In spite of the fact that "Bladerunner" was lifted from an unrelated story, I always figured that the use could be justified if one defined a bladerunner as someone who operated on the edge. In this vein, the workgroup I was with at the time the movie came out started using the term to refer to people who had been given difficult special assignments that had to be executed quickly. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Jan 86 0834-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #22 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 23 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 22 Today's Topics: Books - Adams (2 msgs) & Correy & Dick & Haldeman & Heinlein & Leiber & McCaffrey (2 msgs) & The Flying Sorcerors & An Old Request Answered, Miscellaneous - Descriptions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ukc!gcb1@caip.rutgers.edu (G.C.Blair) Subject: Hitch-Hikers' Guide Fan Club Date: 15 Jan 86 12:22:52 GMT The demand for Hitch-Hiker's info has been so overwhelming I've decided to post it to this newsgroup. Sorry about any delay, but I suspect our mailer was inoperative over much of the Christmas Ne'erday period. Happy Hitching! HITCH-HIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY FAN-CLUB INFORMATION The HHGttG fan-club is the source of many quaint, cute or otherwise interesting memorabilia, souveneirs, etc., as well as fulfilling its main role as a forum for discussion on HH. It produces a regular "magazine" (the exact definition of "regular" is somewhat hazy too!) and every member also gets a nice red badge which *really does* attract interest at parties, etc. The badge has on it: * ***** ** * * * * * * ***** ******* * * * * ***** D O N ' T P A N I C Z Z 9 The fan-club is called ZZ9 Plural Alpha, which should be of some significance (and great importance) to all Hikers, as it's the co-ordinates of Earth in the Galactic Sky-Charts. Some of the more interesting things being done by ZZ9 include the compilation of a REAL HHGttG, which we eventually aim to have packaged into something like the original as described by Doug. At present, we have the technology (shades of the six-million dollar man....?), but are lacking in entries. Any ideas can be mailed to the address below. Probably THE most mega-hyper-important thing done thus far is the production of THE TOWEL. Not just any towel, THE TOWEL. It's sort of big (at 64" X 30") and has lots of writing on it. The object of the writing is that, when someone asks you why you're carrying a towel, you don't have to go to all the hassle of explaining it, but just hold up your towel and let he/she/it read it for his/her/it- self! Also available are sundries such as Lazlar Lyricon T-shirts, stickers in various sizes with catchy little phrases like "Be like the 22nd elephant with heated value in space - Bark!" Anyway, enough from me: the address to write to for more info is: Sirius Marketing Division, 203, Coombfield Drive, Darenth, Dartford, Kent DA2 7LF, United Kingdom. PS Recently published are the original Radio Series scripts, with annotations by Doug and the director. For those who never heard the original series, it's a must. For those who did hear it, then read the books, they'll have forgotten just how good the radio shows were! The book contains lots of extra info like how sound-effects were created, how plots were thought up and how characters were named, etc. My copy is signed "Don't Panic!!! Douglas Adams". So there! Grant C Blair Reply address: {seismo,....}!mcvax!ukc!gcb1 (I am physically located in Canterbury, Kent, England.) ------------------------------ From: geowhiz!schuh@caip.rutgers.edu (David Schuh) Subject: Re: Hitch-Hikers' Guide Fan Club Date: 21 Jan 86 18:34:57 GMT gcb1@ukc.UUCP (G.C.Blair) writes: >The fan-club is called ZZ9 Plural Alpha, which should be of some >significance (and great importance) to all Hikers, as it's the >co-ordinates of Earth in the Galactic Sky-Charts. I am sure that I can hear Trillian saying: "Zed Zed Nine Plural Zed Alpha" ^^^ not: "Zed Zed Nine Plural Alpha" as a matter of fact this way it doesn't say easily at all (try it). Perhaps this extra "Zed" is in the US distribution. As a matter of fact there apear to be quite a few (minor) differences from the scripts, ones that aren't mentioned in the notes. I can't confirm by scripts right now but as soon as I get home ... But I'm really sure, I have tapes of the broadcasts which I have fairly well memorized. Dont Panic dave schuh !uwvax!geowhiz!schuh ------------------------------ From: cisden!lmc@caip.rutgers.edu (Lyle McElhaney) Subject: Re: December Booklist from the OCOH Date: 20 Jan 86 03:55:20 GMT > Richardson, R. S. SHUTTLE DOWN > (writing as "Lee Reprint 1981 paperback. Richardson's > other, and perhaps better known, > Correy") pseudonym is G. Harry Stine, which he > uses for scientific articles. Unless I am very much mistaken, G. Harry Stine is the man's real name; it is by that name that some friends of mine knew him long before he became a writer. Lee Correy is a pseudonym, and Reed Richardson is the name of one of the main characters in SHUTTLE DOWN. An excellent book, by the way, that I have been trying to find ever since some dastard stole mine from my vault. Some hype has been added to the cover, stating that the problems involved in shuttle recovery on polar orbits out of Vandenburg were first explored in this book (copyright 1981) before the US negotiated a treaty with Chile for use of Easter Island as an emergency landing point (1985), and that may be true. An excellent story with lots of technical detail. Lyle McElhaney ...hao!cisden!lmc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 86 15:23:44 MST From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley) Subject: Re: Burroughs and Bladerunner (and back to Dick again) >From: INGRIA%OZ.AI.MIT.EDU@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU >... For example, given the general film noire/hard boiled >detective feel of the movie, I can understand why they might not >want to use the original title, @i(Do Androids Dream of Electric >Sheep?), since it is a humorous title, at odds with the character >of the film. ... Urk. Humorous?! If you've read the novel you should realize that the title is not the least bit flippant -- in fact it perfectly captures the central theme of the novel, although you may not notice this without some reflection. My opinion is that the reason why Scott needed a title other than DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP? is that the novel and the movie give different answers to the question it asks! A movie that was more than marginally based on the original DREAM would be quite a contrast to BLADERUNNER and just as (or more) interesting. Anyone interested in producing UBIK: THE SCREENPLAY? Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Subject: The Forever War Date: Tue, 21 Jan 86 10:14:53 -0500 From: Frank Hollander I don't think that Paul Winalski is more than partially right about the gay society in The Forever War. I'm almost sure that the society resulted [at least in part] due to government encouragement to promote population control. ** Mild spoiler Warning ** Only a small part of The Forever War deals with the soldiers returning to earth. Their disgust with the "brave new world" as well as government manipulation (they were kept from getting [the scarce] jobs) prompted them to reenlist. Originally, Haldeman included a longer section involving the soldiers on Earth. This was removed because it slowed the book down. On its own it is very good. It has been included in Haldeman's new collection - Dealing in Futures. The title is something like "You Can Never Go Back". Frank Hollander ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 1986 (Tuesday) 1417-EDT From: Christopher Shull Subject: _Job, a Comedy of Justice_ by Heinlein In reporting that he gave Heinlein a second chance, Robert R. Stegmann states that he received a recommendation against several of Heinlein's books, including _Job, a Comedy of Justice_. I greatly enjoyed reading _Job_, and have recommended it to a number of friends since. From my experience, I have determined that because _Job_ is a spoof on religion(s), two types of people will not like or appreciate it. The first group includes people who, in my mind, take their Religion and/or Faith much too seriously, and are not accustomed to Doubting. _Job_ makes one Doubt (yes, with a capital D). The second group includes people who simply have little or no knowledge of religions or faith, and therefore lack the background required to appreciate the Questions and the humor. People with knowledge of religion (more knowledge about more religions is more useful) and are comfortable with some probing, unanswerable questions for their Faith should enjoy this book. My friends included a thinking and still agnostic uncle, my Catholic wife, two priests, and a nun. The uncle roared with laughter from beginning to end. My wife had a rough time praying for about two weeks. The priests loved it, but admitted that they wouldn't recommended it to many of their flock. The nun hated it, because she couldn't stand the questioning. If you liked the moral / religious questions Heinlein presented in _Stranger in a Strange Land_, this is much more direct and sweeping in its approach. Enjoy! Christopher Shull Shull@Wharton.ARPA Decision Sciences Department The Wharton School University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA 19104-6366 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 85 10:01:10 EDT From: "Morris M. Keesan" Subject: Father-son writers Cc: wmartin@almsa-1.arpa In SFL V10 #367, Will Martin asks about parent-child pairs of writers, and mentions Fritz Leiber the writer and his father Fritz Leiber the actor. Fritz Leiber's son, Justin Leiber, is also an SF author, and based on the one book of his that I've read, he shows a lot of promise. I don't remember the name of the book -- it was a selection of the SF Book Club, and it was (hazily remembered) about a guy who gets killed or almost killed, gets his brain and/or his consciousness put in a new body which happens to be female and have a tail, and his subsequent adventures. Morris M. Keesan {decvax,ihnp4,etc.}!bbncca!keesan keesan @ BBN-UNIX.ARPA ------------------------------ From: pluto!warren@caip.rutgers.edu (Warren Burstein) Subject: Re: more sexual stuff Date: 20 Jan 86 00:35:31 GMT > Hmmm... I'll have to read [the Dragon Riders of Pern] books again. > I didn't at all catch the implication that when dragons mated, the > 'riders did also. Was I exceedingly obtuse both times I read the > books, or did others also not make this connection/assumption? > Joel ({allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster) There doesn't seem to be any mention of the sexual habits of green and blue riders in either of the trilogies, but there is a gay couple in Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern - blue Rogeth's K'lon and green Granth's A'murry. Sh'gall, the Fort Weyrleader disproves: "Fully male and hold-bred, Sh'gall had never developed any compassion or understanding of the green and blue riders and their associations. (p71) I don't know if all green riders were homosexual or bisexual. Maybe there was some way to keep a green dragon from going into heat. I imagine any brown or blue rider who wanted to avoid the problem could manage to keep his dragon on the ground or out of town when a green flew. What I find more interesting is in Dragondrums where Menolly and Sebell find themselves caught up in their fire lizards's mating. They were among the first to have fire lizards so theirs may have been the first to mature. I guess Pern was never the same. I don't know if Anne McCaffrey really considered all this when she created Pern. If anyone has heard any comments of hers on this topic, I'd like to hear them. While mentioning Moreta, has anyone in this group commented on the fact that the Ballad of Moreta's Ride that is sung in Dragonsinger (p119) has Moreta, dying of the disease, flying @i(between) with Orlith, while in the book Moreta and Leri's Holth are lost @i(between)? ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!israel@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Israel) Subject: Re: more sexual stuff Date: 21 Jan 86 07:36:33 GMT warren@pluto.UUCP writes: >What I find more interesting is in Dragondrums where Menolly and >Sebell find themselves caught up in their fire lizards's mating. >They were among the first to have fire lizards so theirs may have >been the first to mature. I guess Pern was never the same. When I read that, I was wondering what would've happened it Sebell was with Masterharper Robinton when his queen went into heat. After all, the Masterharper impressed a bronze who would've responded to Sebell's queen in the same fashion that Menolly's had to. >While mentioning Moreta, has anyone in this group commented on the >fact that the Ballad of Moreta's Ride that is sung in Dragonsinger >(p119) has Moreta, dying of the disease, flying @i(between) with >Orlith, while in the book Moreta and Leri's Holth are lost >@i(between)? Yeah, I've thought about that one also. I can think of two explanations. The first is literary license on the part of the harper composing the ballad since it's more exciting and easier to explain the way that it is sung, instead of the way that it actually happened. The other explanation is loss of information over time. Lots of things got lost, such as the verifiable existence of firelizards, accepted in Moreta's time, but relegated to children's fairy tales by Lessa'a. Historical ambiguity would also explain the fact that in Lessa's time, it is believed that Moreta could talk to all dragons (see about 3/4 thru Dragonriders for F'lar's comment to Lessa) whereas M,DLoP has Moreta only talking to Leri's Holth, as well as her own Orlith. When do you think the next Dragonriders book should be coming out? M,DLoP is (c) as long ago as 1983, and she obviously wrote The White Dragon with the intention of making a sequel in which they explore the terran artifacts, i.e. the space ships and the Dawn Stars. Bruce Israel University of Maryland, Computer Science Dept. {rlgvax,seismo}!umcp-cs!israel (Usenet) israel@Maryland (Arpanet) ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@caip.rutgers.edu (Lee Gold) Subject: Re: Gods in The Flying Sorcerors Date: 20 Jan 86 06:01:00 GMT Forry (not Forrey) Ackerman wears a little green star as a sign that he's an Esperantist. I don't know why he'd been associated with a triangle. Has anyone mentioned Harlan's appearance in FLYING SORCERERS yet as the little god with the big voice? Lee Gold ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 85 9:41:19 EDT From: "Morris M. Keesan" Subject: The Man who was a Jazz Band To: Lindsay@tl-20b.arpa My associative memory says that this story is called "Double, Double", and that it was in one of the Judith Merill "Best of 19.." anthologies, [among other places]. I remember the book being a relatively thick paperback with a black (possibly slightly star-speckled) cover, and probably number 5 or 6 in Merrill's "Best" series. I think this would date it some time in the middle or late 1960s. My memory refuses to come up with an author for this one. ------------------------------ From: valid!pete@caip.rutgers.edu (Pete Zakel) Subject: Re: on writing Date: 22 Jan 86 04:33:43 GMT > From: Lynn Gold > As he trudged through the mud in the moonlight, the Corvette > roared after him, gleaming like a fire engine. > > Note that unless you count "fire engine" as an adjective followed > by a noun, rather than a compound word, there are no adjectives in > the second example. Sorry, but "gleaming like a fire engine" is an adjective phrase modifying "Corvette", and "the" and "a", although commonly refered to as "articles" (sp?) are in fact adjectives also. Otherwise you make a very good point. Pete Zakel (..!{hplabs,amd,pyramid,ihnp4}!pesnta!valid!pete) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Jan 86 0916-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #23 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 23 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 23 Today's Topics: Books - Auel & Burroughs & Haldeman & Hughes & McCaffrey (3 msgs) & Zelazny & Footfall & Recommendations Request, Miscellaneous - Descriptions (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Jan 86 08:49:52 PST From: Dennis Cottel Subject: Re: Earth Children Series I've enjoyed the Earth Children Series (by Jean M. Auel) but not without disappointment. My problems with the books parallel Stephen Perelgut's: 1. Mysticism. After establishing an amazing feel for what life might very well have been like 30,000 years ago, Ms. Auel suddenly gives us a spiritual leader who can remember his entire evolutionary tree-branch, read minds, send his thoughts, and glimpse the future. What a jolt. This was absolutely unnecessary to the story. In the first book, this is relatively easy to ignore; it becomes a little more heavy-handed in the third. Pretend this stuff isn't there--as her editor should have. 2. Sex. There are times where the sexual relationships of these characters are very important to the story. At too many other times, however, the narrative comes to a dead stop while we skip over paragraphs of "moist mounds" and "engorged manhood." Gak! The phrase "lurid prose" was coined for this stuff. Somewhat harder to ignore. 3. Coincidence: Ayla has a remarkable predilection for discovery, whether by chance or intention. As Stephen mentioned, she has invented stitching wounds, the flint and steel fire lighter, a spear thrower, and the sewing needle. She perfected the double-stone sling throw (anybody know if this can really be done?), was the first to use a horse for carrying loads, invented the travois, and was the first to ride a horse. Ah, yes, and created the domesticated dog. She is also the only person on the planet who knows where babies come from. Each discovery is described in ways that make fascinating reading, and may be taken as archetypical of the way it might have happened. Still, as the incidents add up, they begin to tug at your "suspension of disbelief." When Ms. Auel is treating the people and how they live and survive, she is masterful. But each book is longer than its predecessor. If the latter two had been edited to the length of the first, they might have been as good. How frustrating it is to see how much better they could have been had she stayed with what she does best and left the other parts to Steven King and Barbara Cartland. I hope that somehow she gets the message; the next installment could be as good as the first. In spite of these problems, I have found the books enjoyable, and will read the next. But if Ayla invents the wheel, I'm gonna quit! Dennis Cottel Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego, CA 92152 (619) 225-2406 dennis@nosc.ARPA sdcsvax!noscvax!dennis ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: "Bladerunner" query Date: 20 Jan 86 22:29:28 GMT lars@cartan.UUCP (Lars Andersson) writes: >I don't recall any reference to the word in "Do Androids...", but >there definitely is a novel called "Bladerunner" by William S. >Burroughs (that great neglected S.F.-writer) that came out before >the movie. Bill Burroughs a 'neglected SF-writer?' I don't see how a seminal author like Burroughs can be described as 'neglected.' Although he's had his share of bad press and hard criticism, he's been a major and influential figure in the arts for many years. As I recall, 'bladerunners' are mentioned in one of his novels (perhaps Nova Express?) but I don't think he's written a novel explicitly titled 'Bladerunner.' Is Burroughs an SF-writer? Certainly SF techniques and themes are prominent in his work. But I think most of his work could be classified as fantasy with equal justification, or even surrealism. Is the fantastic history underlying 'Cities of the Red Night' intended to represent a POSSIBLE history at all? I don't think so. I think Burroughs uses the devices of SF for his own purposes, but I think his intent is quite different: he's totally uninterested in plausibility or prediction, for one thing. Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: Tue 21 Jan 86 22:01:54-EST From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #19 > As I recall the story, the predominately gay society in THE > FOREVER WAR did not result because of government encouragement to > promote population control. Rather, it evolved from the use of > artificial insemination and artificial wombs for procreation. > Pregnancy being undesireable in such a society, homosexual > activity was preferred since it didn't require bothering with > contraceptives. Gay sex became so prevalent that eventually > heterosexuality was regarded as perverted. [SPOILER!] Wrong. A very major theme of the _The_Forever_War_ was governmental meddling in all kinds of [currently] private affairs. Universal homosexuality is one example, and it was a government plan of contraception. It (gov. control) is a theme of the book: e.g., the hate-conditioning of the soldiers in the first battle; more subtle conditioning of the entire population later on on Earth; the coercion and trickery that the UNEF used to get the ex-soldiers back into the war. For that matter, the forever war itself was revealed as such a thing. I believe that Haldeman was in Viet Nam, or closely connected with it (or possibly some other war). w_Blessings, Bard ------------------------------ From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: THE PROPHET OF LAMATH by Robert Don Hughes (mild spoiler) Date: 20 Jan 86 17:06:22 GMT The jacket reads: "Beware the dragon! The dragon was divided! Its two heads, Vicia and Heinox, were fighting for control of its massive body. For centuries, it had sat quietly at Dragonsgate, content with its tribute of slaves for food. Now it took to the air, burning villages at random throughout the Three Lands to vent its rage and confusion. With Dragonsgate open for the passage of armies, war and chaos beset all the lands. It was all the fault of Pelmen the player, who had confused the heads to gain escape for himself and the Princess Bronwynn. Pelmen the player, Pelmen the powershaper -- now Pelmen the Prophet of the Power! And only Pelmen could end the evils that threatened to destroy everything. But Pelmen was helpless, locked in the King's dungeon, waiting to be executed on the drawing blocks. Should he escape, the prophecy of the Priestess foretold an even more terrifying fate at the mouths of the dragon!" The jacket is accurate enough, but most of what it describes occurs at the end of the book. There are a lot of characters in the story, and the author does a decent enough job with each to make them seem real to the reader. The world is one of fantasy, but each Land has its own interesting attributes: in one, magical powers are evident; in another, prophecy and religious blessings often work. Characters from each of the Three Lands are represented, and there are numerous subplots going on at the same time as the main plot. With a less talented writer the result would be a total mess, but Mr. Hughes carries it off (though I must admit that I had to pause occasionally to recall with whom the current character was allied). The story is perfectly paced, and it is an excellent blend of adventure, character studies, philosophy, sociology, and intrigue. I give this book my highest rating, 4.0 stars. And by the way, there are two others featuring Pelmen: THE WIZARD IN WAITING and THE POWER AND THE PROPHET. Duane Morse ...!noao!terak|anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ From: pluto!warren@caip.rutgers.edu (Warren Burstein) Subject: Re: more sexual stuff (Dragonriders) Date: 21 Jan 86 05:21:27 GMT (Frederick M. Avolio) writes: > ... since "Greens are rendered sterile through a sex-linked > disability triggered by chronic use of firestone," (which is why > Queens never chew firestone) might it not affect them further? In "Dragonquest", F'nor is stabbed by T'reb, a green rider whose dragon is about to mate. p15-18 In "The White Dragon", Mirrim's Path has been proddy for some time. p197 Menolly made an exasperated sound. "If Path doesn't fly soon, Mirrim, you're not going to be on terms with anyone!" Surprised, Jaxom looked at Mirrim, who was flushing deeply red. "Oh ho, Path's ready to be flown! That'll sort out some of your high-headed notions!" He couldn't resist crowing at her dismay. "Has Path shown a preference? Ha! Look at her blush! Never thought I'd see the day when you'd lose the loss of your tongue. And you'll be losing something more soon...." And we think teenagers on Earth have trouble with sex. ------------------------------ From: valid!pete@caip.rutgers.edu (Pete Zakel) Subject: Moreta fact vs. legend Date: 22 Jan 86 04:58:15 GMT > While mentioning Moreta, has anyone in this group commented on the > fact that the Ballad of Moreta's Ride that is sung in Dragonsinger > (p119) has Moreta, dying of the disease, flying @i(between) with > Orlith, while in the book Moreta and Leri's Holth are lost > @i(between)? I assumed Anne was being realistic in that legends almost never have all the facts straight. Pete Zakel (..!{hplabs,amd,pyramid,ihnp4}!pesnta!valid!pete) ------------------------------ From: wucec2!jdz@caip.rutgers.edu (Jason D. Zions) Subject: Dragons of Pern: Dragon/Rider relations Date: 20 Jan 86 03:11:06 GMT I don't McCaffrey is all that subtle about it. During the Search for Lessa, McCaffrey indicates pretty clearly that "proddy" dragons (i.e. in heat) project strongly on their riders, who become irritable, etc. Horny. Then we have the first mating flight of Ramoth; Lessa is surrounded by all the bronze riders, and as several bronzes drop out of the flight, the shrinking group "stumbles" towards the queen rider's room. As Ramoth is caught by Mnementh, we are almost told straight out that F'lar/Lessa and Menmenth/Ramoth mate together. When Jaxom and Ruth are training on the Weyr grounds and one of the green dragons goes off on a mating flight, Jaxom is caught up in the projected waves of desire (even though Ruth doesn't really care). There are other references, some of which appear in the Harper Hall trilogy. It wasn't until the second or third time through the series that I picked up on the inherent bi-sexuality of dragon riders. Even bronzes get stuck with greens; not enough queens to go around. I think a small amount of mirth is aroused because of all of this when Mirrim impressed Path; after all, women weren't supposed to ride anything but queens... Anyway, this is all I can remember off the top of my head; I have vague recollections of McCaffrey getting somewhat more explicit somewhere... Jason D. Zions jdz@wucec2 Center for Engineering Computing ...ihnp4!wucs!wucec2!jdz Washington University in St. Louis ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 86 09:51:25 EST (Wednesday) From: Heiny.henr@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Unicorn Variations Well, I'm not so sure 'Unicorn Variations' isn't available in the US, nor that it's so new - I bought a used copy of the Science Fiction Book Club edition at a rummage sale in the summer of '84 (at least I think that's where I got it). I think you've been misled by the bookstore. It is an interesting book, with some nice stories. The title story was plagiarized by a schoolboy who won a writing contest with it - there was some scandal when the theft was discovered. Chris Heiny ------------------------------ From: hamachi@KIM (Gordon Hamachi) Subject: Footfall--What Happened to Robert Anson? Date: 21 Jan 86 21:44:27 GMT What happened to the character named Robert Anson? Very near the end of the book some of other the characters remark that they wish that he was there to help make an important decision. Where did he go? ------------------------------ From: ttidcb!jackson@caip.rutgers.edu (Dick Jackson) Subject: Request from an SF Diletante Date: 20 Jan 86 21:42:49 GMT I have hesitated to ask this because if my request is taken seriously by only a few I may get deluged, but - here goes: I have dabbled in sf for a considerable time but am no super-fan. I am, however, responsible for my 15 year old son's education and have been feeding him the classics, as known to me, in paperback. By "the classics" I have in mind those works which have been tested by time and which should form the basis for continued reading. For example, in mainstream literature the classics might be Shakespeare, Milton, Dickens, etc. So far I have covered Niven's known space and started on Foundation. There have been a couple of hard core Heinleins (inc. SST). Oh, yes, he's read Dune. Just recently we were given the first three of Farmer's World of Tiers - new to me - a classic? My question is: What else qualifies? I guess I am not looking for just authors names, but key works from important authors. More Heinlein? which? Doc Smith? really? Arthur Clarke? Which? Who else? I of course don't expect to get anything out of your replies, I am only asking on behalf of my little boy. :-) Thank you folks, Dick Jackson. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 86 20:42:34 PST From: woody%Juliet@Hamlet.Caltech.Edu Subject: Re: Descriptions in Books Gee, with all the flames flying about adverbs and adjectives, I seem to remember that the discussion started over the use of description--books which describe to us what a person looks like verses books which assume we can tell all about the person by what he or she does. As if your personal philosophy tells anything about the color of your hair! Personally, I'd love to know what color someone's hair was, but I wouldn't like it if the author wrote two paragraphs outlining exactly *how* red it was; that's simply a waste of paper. As for writing style, overkill on adjectives is definitely not the way to go; I'm sure we all can agree upon that. But then, there are many things I'm sure we all can agree upon. So assuming everyone agrees upon the contents of the 85 page *The Elements of Style* by Strunk and White, what is everyone's reaction to description of people and objects in books? Should it be 'beautiful woman' or 'blond headed bombshell in a skimpy bikini?' Which would you rather have? William Woody NETWORK: WOODY@ROMEO US MAIL: 1-54 Lloyd, Caltech Pasadena, CA 91126 ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!oyster@caip.rutgers.edu (Vicious Oyster) Subject: Re: Descriptions in Books Date: 22 Jan 86 21:59:42 GMT woody%Juliet@Hamlet.Caltech.Edu writes: >Should it be 'beautiful woman' or 'blond headed bombshell in a >skimpy bikini?' Which would you rather have? That's easy. "Beautiful woman" is much more descriptive to me because I see something other than a blond in a bikini. Unless it's *absolutely essential* to the story to have that woman be blond and bikini-clad, I'd rather she be as *I* picture her. As for the "novel as movie script" idea, I would think that the *more* description there is, the easier it could be made into a movie. After all, the thing a vast number of people complain about after seeing a movie based on a popular book ("The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings" come to mind) is that the movie portrayed characters and scenery differently than they had envisioned them ("*That's* not what Bilbo looks like..."). Joel P. {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Jan 86 0845-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #24 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 27 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 24 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Correy & Haldeman & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Hussey & McCaffrey & Zelazny & Quakers in SF, Television - Dr. Who, Miscellaneous - Character Expansion & Descriptions (2 msgs) & Bladerunner ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cybvax0!mrh@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Huybensz) Subject: YAXB (Yet Another Xanth Book) Date: 22 Jan 86 21:09:05 GMT The quality of Xanth books has steadily been declining. Anthony gives partial credit to his fans and his new word processor for this one, and I have to say that it shows those two as faults. "Golem In The Gears" has a few humorous points, but the majority of attempts hit with all the subtlety of "that's supposed to be a joke." The story line is contorted to fit the procrustean bed of contributed ideas. Past characters waltz in and out to spare the effort of plotting something original or clever. Characters spontaneously have great abstract insights required to escape life-or-death situations. Fans of the series will recognize the familiar elements: passive, pretty women with pollyanna attitudes who latch inseparably onto insecure males; Gilbert-and-Sullivan-esque fullfilment of duty and obligation with marriage (or at least pairing) at the end; and the general morality play atmosphere. Anthony threatens further sequels; also further Blue Adept books. Unless he spends more time crafting his stories, I'm going to give up on them. And since he now can produce them faster with his processor, I don't think it will happen. Mike Huybensz ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh ------------------------------ From: hplabs!faunt@caip.rutgers.edu (Doug Faunt) Subject: Re: December Booklist from the OCOH Date: 24 Jan 86 01:30:29 GMT >> Richardson, R. S. SHUTTLE DOWN >> (writing as "Lee Reprint 1981 paperback. Richardson's >> other, and perhaps better known, >> Correy") pseudonym is G. Harry Stine, which he > uses for scientific articles. > > Unless I am very much mistaken, G. Harry Stine is the man's real > name; it is by that name that some friends of mine knew him long > before he became a writer. Lee Correy is a pseudonym, and Reed > Richardson is the name of one of the main characters in SHUTTLE > DOWN. The crew at the OCOH admit that they goofed. R.S. Richardson is somebody else. G. Harry Stine is real, and writes as Lee Correy. ....!hplabs!faunt faunt@hplabs.ARPA 415-655-8604 ------------------------------ Subject: Haldeman in Vietman Date: Fri, 24 Jan 86 12:01:25 -0500 From: Frank Hollander Yes, Joe Haldeman served (and was wounded) in Vietnam. If you go through all his books he probably mentions it somewhere. He wrote a short mainstream novel called WAR YEAR that is at least somewhat autobiographical (not completely!!). Frank Hollander ------------------------------ From: ISM780!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: _Job, a Comedy of Justice_ by Heinle Date: 23 Jan 86 16:37:00 GMT > From my experience, I have determined that because _Job_ is a > spoof on religion(s), two types of people will not like or > appreciate it. The first group includes people who, in my mind, > take their Religion and/or Faith much too seriously, and are not > accustomed to Doubting. _Job_ makes one Doubt (yes, with a > capital D). > > The second group includes people who simply have little or no > knowledge of religions or faith, and therefore lack the background > required to appreciate the Questions and the humor. To dissent, I fall into neither group, and I did not care for JOB, though I found it immeasurably better than RAH tripe like Friday, etc., etc. It's a slapdash work with the suffocating RAH preaching attenuated only slightly. **** Pause for injection of personal philosophy In a nutshell, my own belief is that Faith is necessary; yet Faith unilluminated by knowledge, questioning, and the intellect is mere superstition. Faith must follow where knowledge leads. **** End pause As a result, I don't like being *preached to* by anyone, RAH included, when he writes *ex cathedra*, telling us how things *really* are. From an esthetic standpoint, I don't generally enjoy stories where the writer can pull anything he wants to, either *ex machina* or *ex deus*. To a novel written with such a premise, Phooey! Jim Brunet ihnp4/ima/ism780B ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 1986 07:25:18-EST From: clapper@NADC Subject: Re: _Job, A Comedy of Justice_ Christopher Shull writes > ... From my experience, I have determined that because _Job_ is a > spoof on religion(s), two types of people will not like or > appreciate it. The first group includes people who, in my mind, > take their Religion and/or Faith much too seriously, and are not > accustomed to Doubting. > > The second group includes people who simply have little or no > knowledge of religions or faith, and therefore lack the background > required to appreciate the Questions and the humor. I disagree. Personally, I liked the much of the religious satire presented in _Job_, much for the same reasons that Mr. Shull praises it. However, the plot more than occasionally meanders, and (as others on the net have complained) much of the conversation in Heinlein's books is too pat and too cute. On the whole, I found _Job_ to be merely average Heinlein, despite some delicious pokes at fundamentalist or dogmatic religious beliefs. By the way, I am an agnostic who is reasonably familiar with religion and faith. (My grandfather is a lay preacher who loves to discuss religious issues from an open-minded point of view...) Brian Clapper clapper@NADC.ARPA ------------------------------ From: ISM780!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Kudos to Leigh Ann Hussey Date: 22 Jan 86 21:13:00 GMT THE LOVER OF LORD EITHRAS, by Leigh Ann Hussey of our very own SF-Lovers, is in the March, 1986, issue of FANTASY BOOK, and is the cover story of the issue no less. As sword-fantasy goes, I think it's pretty good, though I sensed some parts were hurried through to get it down to FB length. It does make this reader eager to see the novel-in-progress when it comes out. Jim Brunet ...ihnp4/ima/ism780B ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccrdave@caip.rutgers.edu (Lord Kahless @ Imperial From: Propoganda) Subject: Re: McCaffrey's Pern series Date: 24 Jan 86 05:09:42 GMT > To me, part of the interest in the society as it progressed > throughout the series was their rediscovery of technology. Once > they found the ship, it seems all downhill from there. I would > just as soon *not* see any post-WHITE DRAGON novels. I beg to differ. While being stuck rediscovering the electric light bulb would be as boring as the rediscovery of the telegraph was, that would not be the only thing a third trilogy could cover. Consider the following unresolved issues: Who takes over when F'lar, who we left around age 60, finally retires. What is the process? Imagine the mighty struggle, between the proud F'lessan and the courageous and determined K'van. Imagine the revelation of new Dragonlore. Which Weyr will be the leader, Benden, home of the (eventually) late F'lar, or Fort, site of leadership for centuries. What do the Lord Holders do when the thread fall stops, especially as the grubs have been seeded over the North to protect during the next Fall. Speaking of which, what happened to whatzisface, that Weyerling who got kicked out of Benden for fighting? What territorial conflicts will develop over the Southern continent, especially when the thread fall stops. What caused the first men to flee the south? A single volcano? That seems odd. Why not just move to some place on the same continent that has fewer volcanos? If they were so bright, why did they build on an active volcano to begin with? Maybe there is something in those ships that set off the volcanos, something we are better off not finding. Who will take over as Master Harper? Menolly? It would break tradition, but she seemes the most worthy musically. Sebell? No where near as good a musician or a composer. How does Menolly feel about this? Answers to these and other important human questions will be answered by somebody with enough imagination. {dual,lll-crg,ucbvax}!ucdavis!vega!ccrdave ------------------------------ From: ISM780!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Unicorn Variations Date: 21 Jan 86 21:29:00 GMT Err, I'm not sure how to break this to you, but UNICORN VARIATIONS has been out for some time now, in hardback. The Science Fiction Book Club has it, and it was published as a "regular" hardback as well. I think it earned an award for the year it came out as the best single-author anthology. The British Sphere Press edition has a nice cover, though. In addition to a very nice selection of stories, there are several blurbs and an essay by Zelazny on writing which I found fascinating, but then I'm a fan of RZ's better stuff. Jim Brunet ihnp4/ima/ism780b ------------------------------ Date: Thu 23 Jan 86 10:22:38-PST From: Diana Subject: Post-Holocaust Books Another post-WW3 book that hasn't been mentioned is _Still Forms on Firefox_ by Joan Slonczewski. The book is about a group of Friends (Quakers) who escape WW3 and colonize a planet which is re-discovered many years later by United Nations International (UNI) the government which has developed in their absence. UNI has managed to absorb every population with which they have come into contact. Since the Friends wish to retain their unique identity, UNI and the inhabitants of Firefox come into conflict. The theme of this book deals with apparent conflict between science and faith, with neither depicted as evil or wrong. Also, I'm interested in other science fiction books in which Quakerism plays a role. A description of the book (including spoilers) would help; information about the role(s) that the Friend(s) takes would be most helpful before I hunt down the books. In case you wonder what this is all about, I am looking for books to add to a Meeting library that would be of interest to young Friends and science fiction is a popular category. Since Friendly science fiction is as unusual a catagory as you are likely to see on SF-Lovers, I'd recommend that you send replies directly to me at Egly@hplabs.arpa Thanks, Diana ------------------------------ Date: Thu 23 Jan 86 04:09:36-PST From: Alan Greig Subject: What really happened to Dr. Who The BBC finally begin filming a new series of Dr. Who in March and Michael Grade, the Controller of BBC1 televsion, has come clean on why the series was 'rested'. In recent interviews he has stated that in his opinion, the programme had become too violent for screening at peek viewing time and that the plots had become boring and repetitive. Had it not been for viewer reaction he might well have cancelled the series for good. However (and shades of Star Trek here) its not all good news and when the new series returns it will be 'on trial' and judged purely by the amazing Mr. Grade. This seems bad news as normally he likes his programs to be filled with sex, have the charcaters talk of how they cured their heroin addiction and have at least 7 guest appearances of Terry Wogan in each episode. Unhappily, this gets audiences and, in an about turn, these are now all important to the BBC. Still, he won't have it entirely his own way if he tries to cancel. BBC radio 4 showed that when they jumped in to produce a mini series for radio during its enforced tv abscence. They'd jump at the chance to do the whole thing should BBC1 drop it. BBC2 also rescued Star Trek when one of Grade's first decsiions on being appointed Controller was to cancel the Star Trek reruns so at least some people in the BBC still know a good thing when they see one. BTW, if anyone out there heard the radio series, could they submit a review. I only caught the last episode by accident as I didnt realise it was being transmitted at the time. Alan Greig Arpa: Alan%DCT@UCL-CS.ARPA or Alan%DCT@CS.UCL.AC.UK Janet:Alan%DCT@DUNDEE ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 86 16:10:27 EST From: Joseph I. Herman (Joe) Subject: Character Expansion Howdy-do! I recently went on a binge of re-reading. I went back and re-read most of the series in my library. I noticed one thing, as the series progressed, the characters got more and more powerful. Take the Thieves World series as an example, by the end of the 5th book, everyone was a god. Can someone recommend a series in which the character stays more or less constant in abilities throughout? Lord of the Rings is pretty close to what I want. Frodo and Sam stayed the same pretty much througout the whole book, though I'll grant you, it's only one adventure. Is it possible to keep your characters from getting too large? I find that by the end of the series, the characters are just too powerful to be believed, so I end up being dissapointed. Please suggest something, Joe DZOEY@UMD2.EDU HERMAN@UMDD.BITNET P.S. on the other hand, maybe it's just the type of series I read (mostly Romantic SF / Fantasy) ------------------------------ From: ISM780!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Absolute Rules Date: 23 Jan 86 19:28:00 GMT While on the subject of rules for writing, i.e., description, there comes to mind a tale of a writing workshop that, if it isn't true, it should be. Pompous but enthusiastic instructor in front of class. "Fiction depends on character. Your characters must live. They must begin to breathe in the very first paragraph, and if they are not fully alive at the end of the page... your fiction is a failure." Brief pause, and from the back of the room a sepulchral voice intoned, "Marley was dead, to begin with." (Charles Dickens, A CHRISTMAS CAROL) Jim Brunet ihnp4/ima/ism780B ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 23 Jan 1986 14:52:27-PST From: vickrey%coors.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (LAN_Mistress) Subject: Current debate on descriptive narrative >. . . but I doubt that many who read or write science fiction would >acknowledge such a basic necessity. Detail is not what they want, >or I imagine they would be reading and writing classics. Davis >Tucker Oh? What about "Pride and Prejudice", by Jane Austen? The most description provided for the heroine is that she has "a rather fine pair of eyes". There are virtually no visual details in the entire novel - you could not read this book and dress a set, or block stage movements; description is reserved entirely to the inter-relationships of the characters. And this is, if not the best, then certainly one of the top ten English-language novels of all time. Good writing comes from hard work; classics come from serendipity. Susan ------------------------------ Date: Thu 23 Jan 86 11:43:08-CST From: William DeVaughan Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #21 re: Bladerunner - In military parlance, the term has long referred to troubleshooting or "operating on the cutting edge" with overtones of illegality from the runner/smuggler connotation. At the least pejorative level, it refers to things done unconventionally by one who tends to disregard the opinions or feelings of the establishment. Bill ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Jan 86 0905-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #25 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 27 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 25 Today's Topics: Books - Berry & Correy & McCaffrey & Robinson & Russell & Wolfe (2 msgs) & Zelazny & Recommendations, Films - Books into Films, Miscellaneous -Descriptions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: msudoc!ctj@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris T. Johnson {of Systems}) Subject: review, "The Battle For Terra Two" Date: 22 Jan 86 00:00:33 GMT Stephen Ames Berry's "The Battle For Terra Two" Sequel to "The Biofab War" Score: Begining: 5, Middle: 7, End: 7, Overall: 6 Blurb: The sudden arrival of the K'Ronarin fleet saved Earth from enslavement to the dreadful insectoid biofabs, and a new interstellar age has dawned on the planet. John Harrison, hero of the Biofab War, can relax at last ... or can he? For unknown to the alliance, a few renegade biofabs escaped through a dimensional portal into an alternate unicerse. They are rebuilding their forces for a counter-strike against all humanity ... in both universes. When the truth is discovered, Harrison is catapulted into a strange world to discover the location of the biofab nest, to burn it out before a new generation hatches. But it won't be easy -- because in the version of Earth, Harrison is a revolutionary, on the run from the secret police of the Fourth Reich! Opinion: Over all I liked the book. The story flows well from beginning to end without any rude suprises. The technical story is well written staying true to the original premises. As much as I liked the book I still felt that the author was remise in his characterizations. At times I found that the characters were completely interchangeable. I also seem to remember someone else writing about an alternate world where the Germans won WWII (Harry Harison??). If you like a good battle scene you might like this book but don't look for great things. ctj ..!ihnp4!msudoc!ctj ------------------------------ Date: 0 0 00:00:00 CDT From: "MARTIN J. MOORE" Subject: G. Harry Stine > Some hype has been added to the cover, stating that the problems > involved in shuttle recovery on polar orbits out of Vandenburg > were first explored in this book (copyright 1981) before the US > negotiated a treaty with Chile for use of Easter Island as an > emergency landing point (1985), and that may be true. ...and not only that, this book spurred a NASA study on mid-flight refueling of the Shuttle-carrier 747; the book pointed out that the max fuel load was insufficient for a trip from Easter Island to the mainland. ------------------------------ From: gitpyr!ccastkv@caip.rutgers.edu (KEITH VAGLIENTI) Subject: Re: more sexual stuff Date: 22 Jan 86 15:01:18 GMT For purposes of a ballad it would be considered more heroic for the two main characters, Moreta and Orlith, to go between at the same time. Since Leri and Orlith went between as soon as they were no longer needed it doesn't really counter history and it does seem to work better. Keith Conrad Vaglienti Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastkv ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 86 14:48 PST From: Dave Platt Subject: Cross-book references in "Mindkiller" I just finished rereading Spider Robinson's "Mindkiller", and noted two references to characters who appear to be dropping in to visit from other Robinson stories. A laurel, and hearty handshake will go to anyone who can identify these two characters and the stories from which they came... and a big "Huzzah!" to anyone who finds a reference that I've missed. Please post answers to me; I'll post a summary of the winners and correct answers to the net next week. Dave Platt ------------------------------ From: mcgill-vision!mouse@caip.rutgers.edu (der Mouse) Subject: Re: story request Date: 22 Jan 86 04:57:32 GMT >>> Well, I don't remember anything about a story involving "obs", >>> but [ ... ] >> [ ... ] a story involving "obs" was the novel *The Great >> Explosion* by Eric Frank Russell. [ ... ] > Hmmm. Does anyone know if that is still in print? I have a > collection of short stories that has the 'obs' story in it, but I > don't believe that it was tied in with any others. And you don't name the story or the collection?? Tsk tsk.... The original request seems to have left our system while I was on vacation. Eric Frank Russell did write a story involving "ob"s. It sounds like what little description I can gather from the above. I also happen to think it's a lovely story. It is called "...And Then There Were None"; I have it in The Science Fiction Hall of Fame, volume IIA (ed: Ben Bova, ISBN 0-380-00038-5, Avon Books, Doubleday & Co, NY, NY). Can anyone tell me if this "The Great Explosion" is a longer version of the same thing (oh Jayembee, Jaaayembeeee, where aaare you)? And if so, enough information to allow me to find the book? der Mouse USA: {ihnp4,decvax,akgua,etc}!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse philabs!micomvax!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse Europe: mcvax!decvax!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse mcvax!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!micomvax!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse ------------------------------ From: stolaf!robertsl@caip.rutgers.edu (Laurence C. Roberts) Subject: Gene Wolfe small press books Date: 22 Jan 86 16:54:23 GMT Has anyone out there read _Castle_of_the_Otter_ or _Planet_Engineering_? From something I read in Dann & Duzois' _Mermaids_, _Castle_ is about the writing of the Book of the New Sun - and note the play on _Citadel_of_the_ _Autarch_. And _Planet_Engineering_ is probably columns from _Plant_ _Engineering_, which Wolfe edits. Supposedly somebody, TOR I think, has come out with a $16 edition of _Free_Live_Free_, with slightly revised text. Anybody seen it? Anyway, if anyone has read any of these books, please drop me a line letting me know if they're worth finding. ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_amap@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Aden Poling) Subject: Re: Request from an SF Diletante Date: 22 Jan 86 18:25:18 GMT > My question is: What else qualifies? I guess I am not looking for > just authors names, but key works from important authors. More > Heinlein? which? Doc Smith? really? Arthur Clarke? Which? Who > else? Until my dying breath I will sing the praises of Gene Wolfe's _Book of the New Sun_, which is actually a tetrology (sp?). The books included are The Shadow of the Torturer The Claw of the Conciliator The Sword of the Lictor The Citadel of the Autarch . I have read each of the books at least four times. I'm in the middle of reading the series again. I shouldn't, because I try to write, and reading Wolfe always depresses me :-). By the way; recently I got a naked rejection slip from F&SF for the third slip (the first one that was blank, dammit) in my collection. On to Amazing! Mark ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!cs111olg@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Unicorn Variations Date: 21 Jan 86 12:01:19 GMT mende@aim.rutgers.edu writes: > A few days ago I was in a SF bookstore in New York City and I >picked up a new book by Roger Zelazny. The Book is titled 'Unicorn >Variations' and is a collection of short stories. I have seen a >few of the stories before but most of them are new to the reader. >The book is published by Sphere Book (London) and is not yet >available on the US market. This book is a MUST for all SF >readers. The short essays before each story tell how and why each >story was written. I have also enjoyed the book and found it most fascinating even tho' I have read most of the stories in other publications ( the intro essays DO make a difference!) If you like Zelazny's short stories try also "The Last Defender Of Camelot" and "Dilvish the Damned". Both books (aside from the great short stories) provide a fascinating look into the evolvement and maturation of Zelazny's writing style. Oleg Kiselev. ------------------------------ From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Request from an SF Diletante Date: 23 Jan 86 18:07:45 GMT > I have dabbled in sf for a considerable time but am no super-fan. > I am, however, responsible for my 15 year old son's education and > have been feeding him the classics, as known to me, in paperback. > By "the classics" I have in mind those works which have been > tested by time and which should form the basis for continued > reading. For example, in mainstream literature the classics might > be Shakespeare, Milton, Dickens, etc. I'd like to recommend a couple of personal 'classic' favorites: Dante's _Inferno/Purgatorio/Paradisio_ and Cervantes' _Don Quixote_. If he's plowed through Milton (ugh) then he'll love Dante... > So far I have covered Niven's known space and started on > Foundation. There have been a couple of hard core Heinleins (inc. > SST). Oh, yes, he's read Dune. Just recently we were given the > first three of Farmer's World of Tiers - new to me - a classic? > > My question is: What else qualifies? I guess I am not looking for > just authors names, but key works from important authors. More > Heinlein? which? Doc Smith? really? Arthur Clarke? Which? Who > else? First stop should be Gene Wolfe and his New Sun series starting with _Shadow of the Torturer_. Early Niven, but none of the collaborations (except maybe _Flying Sorcerors_ for comedy relief). Heinlein juveniles (_Have Spacesuit, Will Travel_ and _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_). _Time Enough For Love_ and its companions are very important works as a turning point in SF, but can also be quite frustrating. Foundation is overrated and doesn't age well. I'd also suggest Ray Bradbury (_Martian Chronicles_), Harlan Ellison (_Deathbird Stories_ is representative), Kurt Vonnegut (_Cat's Cradle_), A.C. Clarke (_Childhood's End_). you should read Wells (_War of the Worlds_) and Verne (_20,000 leagues Under the Sea_). Doc Smith (Lensman Series), Piper (fuzzy Series, among others), and Marion Zimmer Bradley (I recommend _Mists of Avalon_ but her Darkover series is also a classical continuing saga). The best overview of classical short fiction is _Adventures in Time and Space_, a giant anthology of short SF. Ellison's _Dangerious Visions_ and _Again, Dangerous Visions_ captures the New Wave of 60's and 70's SF. So does Robert Silverberg (_Dying Inside_) and John Brunner (_Shockwave Rider_). There are classics in the making, important to understand 70's and 80's SF. Spider Robinson (_Callahan's Crosstime Saloon_, _Stardance_), George R.R. Martin (_Dying of the Light_) and John Varley (_Millenium_ and _Persistence of Vision_). Chuq Von Rospach sun!chuq@decwrl.DEC.COM {hplabs,ihnp4,nsc,pyramid}!sun!chuq ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL Date: 22 Jan 86 03:20:46 GMT boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes: >>> From: Dave Godwin >>> In my humble opinion, never in sf has there been a case >>> of good book being made into good movie, >> >>Want more? How about THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL, etc. etc. >>--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) > > I had to dig back 15++ years into my long term storage and >I may be somewhat off. Wasn't this called " to the >Master". > >Can someone help me with this? The story was "Farewell to the Master" by Harry Bates. I think you can find it in Healy and McComas's ADVENTURES IN SPACE AND TIME. Let me stick my neck out and mention a reasonable science fiction novel that made a much better film. I suspect someone will hand me my head on this one because the film was not well-received, but I still think it was pretty good. The film is THE LAND THAT TIME FORGOT. Virtually the only thing wrong with the film were the dinosaur special effects and they were at places laughably bad so the film got a very bad word-of-mouth. In fact, the script, co-authored by Michael Moorcock, was respectful of the Edgar Rice Burroughs novel, but still improved where it needed it. The book had a hero, Bowan Tyler, and a really nasty villian with no redeeming qualities, von Schoenvorts. Burroughs was a bit jingo-istic and so mad the German one-dimensional and all bad. In the film, however, von Schoenvorts is not a villian but a second (perhaps the main) hero. First, he has some very good reasons for torpedoing Tyler's boat. Later it is von Schoenvorts who has the organization skill to bring the Americans and the Germans into cooperation. He also has the intellect to unravel the mysteries of Caprona. In this one stroke the script makes both him and Tyler more believable. If you haven't seen it LAND THAT TIME FORGOT is a pretty good adventure film in spite of a few of the special effects. And it is more satisfying than the Burroughs novel it was based on. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: druri!dht@caip.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker) Subject: Adjectives, sentence structure, etc. Date: 21 Jan 86 21:09:45 GMT >From: Lynn Gold >Rather than tell you why you *should* use less adjectives and more >verbs, let me show you an example: > >1. With adjectives: > >As he ran through the wet brown mud in the dark of night, his only >source of light was the whitish moonlight coming from the dark sky >above as he continued to run away from the red car that was running >after him. Now, now, now - this isn't really fair, is it? You are mistakenly implying that use of adjectives will result in passive tone, extra clauses, and confusing sentence construction. Honestly - this sounds like "The quick brown fox ran over the lazy dog." Certainly, sloppy writing is more apparent with the overuse of adjectives, and less so with nouns and verbs (although using too much metaphor is often done). First of all, it's important to remember that adjectives as a concept *include* descriptive nouns, metaphorical phrases, adverbs, and even verbs. I agree with you that not enough attention is paid to using the right verb, but your example contradicts itself: In the first instance, you say "he ran", and in the second, "he trudged". Here's my suggestion for the sentence: "He ran, hard and sweating, breath pounding in his chest like a hammer. The blood-red 'Vette was roaring up behind him, barely glinting in the wan light from the half-moon above, and as he ran from his death he noticed (with that fearful clarity of mind that comes to the hunted) the mud sucking around his feet, cold and wet from last night's rain." Not that your second sentence was bad, and it did serve to illustrate your point. But it would be just as easy to turn it around and choose two sentences in the same manner and prove exactly the opposite. >Note that they both convey approximately the same amount of >information, yet the second example is only half as long as the >first example. Why is length so bad? Why are we constantly striving to pare prose down to its barest elements? Are we worried about boring the reader who has the attention span of a mosquito? Isn't there more to writing fiction than merely "conveying information"? In a short story, certainly, efficiency of language is very important. But does this have to extend to the novel length? They are two very different beasts, and I would not say that Hemingway is greater than Tolstoy because he uses less adjectives and leaves more up to the imagination. Or that he is greater because he is faster-paced. These are particulars, details of fiction, and judgements of questionable value. It matters what you say, *and* how you say it. I find that the Hemingway style is too often used to cover up dislike for style in general, distaste for necessary description and atmosphere, and simple laziness. Davis Tucker ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Jan 86 1242-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #26 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 29 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 26 Today's Topics: In Memoriam - The Space Shuttle Disaster Books - McCaffrey & Shirley & Tepper & Book Recommendations (2 msgs) & Robert Anson, Radio - A Canticle for Liebowitz, Miscellaneous - Description & Address Request & Warp Drive & The Shuttle Disaster (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Jan 86 12:19:09 EST From: Saul Subject: In Memoriam This issue of the SF-LOVERS digest is dedicated to the men and women who lost their lives on the recent Challenger space shuttle mission. I grieve with the relatives and friends of these brave people who have given their lives in the cause of science and progress. It was a tragedy that was entirely unforseen and certainly one that should never have been. The crew members were not famous SF authors, nor characters in books or movies but were real people who were involved in forging a future for us among the stars which we today only read and dream about. As we continue to read SF books, watch the movies, and discuss them in this digest and elsewhere, let us keep in mind those that have given their lives to bring us a better tomorrow. They died as heroes. R.I.P. Michael Smith Dick Scobee Judith Resnik Ronald McNair Ellison Onizuka Gregory Jarvis Christa McAuliffe ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jan 86 22:57:27 CST From: William LeFebvre Subject: McCaffrey's Moreta,... warren@pluto.UUCP writes: >While mentioning Moreta, has anyone in this group commented on the >fact that the Ballad of Moreta's Ride that is sung in Dragonsinger >(p119) has Moreta, dying of the disease, flying @i(between) with >Orlith, while in the book Moreta and Leri's Holth are lost >@i(between)? BEGIN SPOILER; I was quite dissapointed when I finished M,DLoP. I read the Dragonriders trilogy in order, then I read the Harper Hall trilogy in order. When M,DLoP came out in hardback, I eagerly borrowed the first copy offered me and devoured it. I was expecting a tale on the scale of the narrative related to us in Dragonsinger. A very noble lady on *her* queen, dying a very noble death while trying to save her world. But the end of the book left me with the very definite impression that the death could have been so easily avoided. She never should have gone between that last time. The job was done. Moreta and Holth were exhausted. The Holder even offered (as I recall) his hospitality. He would have welcomed them with open arms. But, no, Moreta had to get back to her queen, and Holth her rider. So, an exhausted rider on an exhausted dragon lost themselves between. I read that and said to myself, "Boy, that was stupid. Why did they do that?" It seemed like there was no need to take that extra risk. The pressure was off. Relax and take it easy. Now this could be rationalized away by saying that the mounting pressures of riders being away from their dragons (especially with one dragon brooding over eggs) made them take that final, fatal, risk. But that was not the impression the story left me with --- indicating a flaw on the part of the writer! END SPOILER; And, yes, the inconsistencies abound. One that has yet to be mentioned in the current discussion (although it has been mentioned in this forum before) is this: F'lar says that Ruatha hold has provided Pern with many good Weyrwomen, like Torene and *Moreta*. But, the Moreta of M,DLoP is from a beasthold in the plains of Keroon(? --- I can't be sure and my books are at home). NOT from Ruatha. umcp-cs!israel@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Israel) writes: > The other explanation is loss of information over time. Lots of > things got lost, such as the verifiable existence of firelizards, > accepted in Moreta's time, but relegated to children's fairy tales > by Lessa'a. Accepted in Moreta's time by whom? The only mention of fire lizards in M,DLoP was when a bronze dragon reported that he had seen nothing during the past hours except fire lizards flying. His rider's response was that he had a sense of humor! The rider, and everyone else in the scene (including Moreta), thought the dragon was joking. However, a good example of information loss is the dragon's ability to "time" it. That technique was known but kept secret in Moreta's time, the knowledge being resticted to bronze and gold dragons and their riders (Moreta was surprised to find out that the Masterhealer knew), but no one in Lessa's time knew of the trick. She rediscovered it. William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University ------------------------------ From: stolaf!robertsl@caip.rutgers.edu (Laurence C. Roberts) Subject: More Cyberpunks/neuromantics Date: 24 Jan 86 22:55:11 GMT I tried to mail a letter to the person who posted the preveous article on Cyberpunks/Neuromantics, but it got bounced twice. Anyway, the upshot is that I went out and bought _Three_Ring_Psychus_ by John Shirley. It was seemingly a typical end-of-the-world book, kinda poorly written, perhaps a little more anti-authoritarian than most. What appealed to me about it was its total disregard for "science". Perhaps this is what Shirley meant by "With the movement, SF is unbound." Generally what this ammounted to was when something was explained, the supposed causes would have actually led to the opposite effects. For instance, the fact that the sun still "rises" and "sets" is used as evidence that the lack of gravity is not caused by a cessasion of rotation on the part of the Earth. If my physics is screwed up as much as Shirley's, I don't want to hear about it, ok? What the book reminded me of was Disch's _The_Genocides_ without the depression. In fact, everything ends up on a more-or-less positive note, although there is a hint that things may still not be utterly utopian, at least if you're a human who likes autonomy. Anyway, I have been so far unable to find any books by Rudy Rucker, although St. Olaf's science library supposedly has a could of books by a Rudy Rucker on the subject of the fourth dimension. If anybody actually read the articles in Locus which prompted this whole discussion, could he/she please post something about said articles' contents? And if the person who posted the preveous article reads this, try to contact me. Laurence Roberts ...ihnp4!stolaf!robertsl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 86 08:15:57 EST From: "Cyril N. Alberga" Subject: Tepper: location of Alphenlicht After seeing Alphenlicht located in Europe for the SECOND time I feel forced to write. It is clear from the book the Alphenlicht is south of the Caucasus. Lake Van and the former Kingdom of Van are in Eastern Anatolia, now Turkey, south of Soviet Armenia and near the Iraqi/Irani boarders. It's all very mountainous in that area, and is near enough to Iran to make the presence of Magi (as desendants of Zorastrians?) reasonable. Of course there is no "free" space there, but the same can be said for Davidson's "Triune Monarchy", and that never bothered me either. The only anomaly to me a odd feeling that there should be a link to Bactria and the Alexandrian Greek asiatic monarchies, but that may be just my own addition to the mise-en-scene. Cyril N. Alberga ------------------------------ From: stolaf!robertsl@caip.rutgers.edu (Laurence C. Roberts) Subject: Re: Request from an SF Diletante Date: 24 Jan 86 17:09:38 GMT Must-read, classic SF? I'd have to second or third the recommendation for Gene Wolfe's _Book_of_the_New_Sun_ Tetralogy. Other stuff: Thomas Disch's _Camp_Concentration_, which is about the nature of intelligence. Some biting satirical SF would be good to read, like Pohl & Kornbluth's _Space_Merchants_, which is aboutadvertising and marketing. I also think there's merit in books by Somtow Sucharitkul (_Light_on_ _the_Sound_) and Norman Spinrad (_The_Last_Hurrah_of_the_Golden_Horde_). Did anyone mention Walter Miller's _A_Canticle_For_Leibowitz_? That's mandatory post-nuclear-war stuff. ------------------------------ From: im4u!jsq@caip.rutgers.edu (John Quarterman) Subject: Re: Request from an SF Diletante Date: 25 Jan 86 21:07:03 GMT For Heinlein, try Double Star, the Star Beast, Starship Troopers, and the Moon is a Harsh Mistress. The Forever War by Joe Haldeman will remind you of Starship Troopers. For a different view of Doc Smith style space opera, try The Wanderer by Fritz Leiber (or most anything else by Fritz Leiber, for that matter). Poul Anderson's Flandry series is sort of space opera as politics. For Arthur Clarke, try The City and the Stars. There's a book by Tanith Lee on the same idea (the title escapes me). In Clarke's Childhood's end you will find better treatments of many of the ideas of 2001. One of his inspirations was probably Last and First Men, by Olaf Stapeldon. There are many others: More than Human by Theodore Sturgeon, The Dispossessed by Ursula K. LeGuin, Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny, Picnic on Paradise by Joanna Russ, Nova and Dalghren by Samuel R. Delany, etc. But I don't remember how old you said your son was... John Quarterman, UUCP: {gatech,harvard,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq ARPA Internet and CSNET: jsq@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU, jsq@sally.UTEXAS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Sat 25 Jan 86 19:02:36-EST From: "Jim McGrath" Subject: Robert Anson Query Cc: MCGRATH%OZ.AI.MIT.EDU@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU >From: hamachi@KIM (Gordon Hamachi) >What happened to the character named Robert Anson? Although I do not believe it was mentioned explicitly, I am sure that Robert Anson died (probably of heart failure). As with many of the characters in the book ("Curtis Wade" is really Pournelle (he writes his spy/adventure novels under that name), Robert Anson was really Robert Heinlein, who also has a bad heart. Jim ------------------------------ From: geowhiz!schuh@caip.rutgers.edu (David Schuh) Subject: Re: SF Diletante. Re A canticle for liebowitz Date: 26 Jan 86 08:37:16 GMT robertsl@stolaf.UUCP (Laurence C. Roberts) writes: >Did anyone mention Walter Miller's _A_Canticle_For_Leibowitz_? >That's mandatory post-nuclear-war stuff. This was also the subject (ACfL) of an EXCELLENT radio adaptation by Wisconsin Public Radio, for National Public Radio. A couple of years ago, Catch it if you can. I have no idea of how often or when it will be rereleased but info could probably be gotten from Carl Schmidt @ wisconsin public radio, 821 university avenue. madison wi. 53706-407 dave schuh !uwvax!geowhiz!schuh ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 86 08:34:59 EST From: "Cyril N. Alberga" Subject: Description Since I moved to write today, I might as well throw in my two cents worth. In all the discussion of description, why has no one mentioned Cherryh? Of all the writers working today I find her work creating the most "real" worlds. I can smell the air on her docks, and hear the movements behind me. She seems to tell much of her stories via description. More than most she shows rather than explains. I realize that this make her work somewhat more difficult, you have to think about everything, notice things and remember them. (I'm reading Cookoo's Egg just now, and it is interesting that that is what Thorn must learn. Clearly that is the way she wants people to view her universes as well.) Cyril N. Alberga ------------------------------ From: euroies!ciaran@caip.rutgers.edu (Ciaran Byrne) Subject: Address of "Industrial Light and Magic" needed Date: 24 Jan 86 19:16:30 GMT Please could someone mail me with the address of Industrial Light and Magic in California. Thanks. Ciaran UUCP: mcvax!euroies!ciaran ------------------------------ Subject: A myth exploded ! From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Jim White) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 86 10:15:31 EST So it seems that the 'warp drive' was not a creation of the Star Trek writers, and the Startrek ships are not the only ones that can go 'Warp x'. While reading Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat, I noted that at least one ship that he had appropriated was fitted with a 'Warp drive'. Since The Stainless Steel Rat predates Startrek...... well. Does anyone in Netland know the first reference and/or origin of the 'Warp drive'? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 86 14:36 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: In Memory of the 25th Space Shuttle Crew In the wake of this tragic launch, which so quickly snuffed out the lives of the crew of the shuttle, I would like to repeat some of the things that I have heard that relate directly to this event. But first, please observe a moment of silence for those souls that we have lost. Here where I work, at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, we have a number of guest speakers come and address a number of topics. One of the people that appeared was Dr. Hans Mark, former head of NASA during the Nixon rein. He was involved when the Apollo missions were finished and the Space Shuttle was being proposed. He informed us of their original plan, which was a completely reusable shuttle and a space station. It was estimated that it could all have been done for the same price as the Apollo missions, which was about $24 billion. They asked President Nixon at a bad time, and he said that we could not afford it and could they do something for half the price? They went back and pondered the idea. Considering the two aspects of the proposal, the space station and the shuttle, the station was the easier of the two, so they decided to do it last. Thus the decision was made to start the shuttle program. They went back to the President and asked for $12 billion to build a reusable two stage shuttle. He had just devalued the dollar that day, so he said that we couldn't afford it, could they do something for half the price? They were ready this time, they had anticipated this tack and had prepared a proposal that consisted of the less desirable half disposable shuttle, which we had been using to great success. This plan was approved and has been flown successfully 24 times. The point of all of this is that while it may be good to save money, it is far better to do something right than risk this loss of life. Cutting funding does not make the program more economical, it makes it more hazardous. We must appeal to Congress to push for more money for NASA so that this tragedy can be prevented. We must not let this prove to be the death toll for the space program. As for the poor astronauts lost on this flight, some may call them courageous, but I believe that the people flying the next mission will really be the courageous ones. May God fly with them. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 28 Jan 86 17:27:52-PST From: Mark Crispin Subject: shuttle disaster speculation To: Wancho@SIMTEL20.ARPA, Geoff@SRI-CSL.ARPA After watching the disaster several times on TV and talking with several other people, here's mine: A crack developed in the casing of the left-hand solid fuel rocket (as seen in the TV footage of the explosion). Perhaps it was caused by the below-freezing temperatures and sudden subsequent heating stressing the metal until it fatigued and cracked. The solid fuel has an empty cone up the middle, to give more surface area when it burns and the crack developed in the casing into the solid fuel from this cone. The solid fuel ruptured and caused the primary explosion in the left-hand solid fuel rocket -- this is visible by single-stepping through the video recording frame-by-frame. This ignited the liquid fuel tank; the resulting explosion blew it and the shuttle to bits. Finally the other solid fuel rocket flew off by itself for a bit. The astronauts never had a chance; it all happened in 1/15 of a second. It may never be known for sure what happened. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Jan 86 1304-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #27 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 29 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 27 Today's Topics: Books - Haldeman & Leiber & Richardson (2 msgs) & Zelazny (2 msgs) & Recommendations (2 msgs), Films - Land that Time Forgot ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Jan 86 11:18:56 est From: mike%bambi@mouton.ARPA Subject: Joe Haldeman and WAR YEAR WAR YEAR was originally written as a "beginning adult reader". It was intended to have a more mature theme than most juveniles (Heinlein excepted :-) but be easy for beginning readers to cope with. In that form, the narrator does survive and return to the US. Haldeman wanted him to die, but that was deemed too downbeat by the publisher. When WAR YEAR was released in paperback (with a shameless "try and sell it as SF" cover) the original Haldeman ending was restored. The beginning adult version was only ever printed in hardback. You might find it in a library (though I couldn't say where in a library it would be). By the way, Haldeman's DEALING IN FUTURES, a short story/novella collection just out, is well worth reading, especially for the alternate treatment of the "return to Earth" from FOREVER WAR. Mike Caplinger mike@bellcore.arpa ihnp4!bambi!mike ------------------------------ From: warwick!ds@caip.rutgers.edu (Douglas Spencer) Subject: Re: Father-son writers Date: 24 Jan 86 12:01:01 GMT >Fritz Leiber's son, Justin Leiber, is also an SF author, and based >on the one book of his that I've read, he shows a lot of promise. >I don't remember the name of the book -- it was a selection of the >SF Book Club, and it was (hazily remembered) about a guy who gets >killed or almost killed, gets his brain and/or his consciousness >put in a new body which happens to be female and have a tail, and >his subsequent adventures. This may be _Beyond Rejection_ , of which I have read a part, as quoted in _The Mind's I_ edited by Douglas R Hofstadter and Daniel C Dennet.(sp) Douglas Spencer Mathematics Institute University of Warwick Coventry CV4 7AL England ..seismo!mcvax!ukc!warwick!ds ------------------------------ From: lsuc!msb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Brader) Subject: Re: December Booklist from the OCOH Date: 25 Jan 86 10:45:53 GMT > The crew at the OCOH admit that they goofed. R.S. Richardson is > somebody else. G. Harry Stine is real, and writes as Lee Correy. Right. R.S. Richardson is R(obert) S(hirley(!)) Richardson, a professional astronomer. He's written both nonfiction and sf stories. And he also uses a pseudonym for his sf, which probably contributed to the confusion. The pseudonym is: Philip Latham. (I use the present tense, but I don't actually know that he's still alive. My 1977 reference gives his dates as "1902- ".) Mark Brader ------------------------------ From: astrovax!wls@caip.rutgers.edu (William L. Sebok) Subject: Re: December Booklist from the OCOH Date: 27 Jan 86 04:51:17 GMT For whatever its worth, a quick look into my copy of the American Astronomical Society (AAS) membership directory shows no R.S. Richardson (or P. Latham) there. I'm not sure about the significance of that. Essentially all of my professional astronomer friends and acquaintances are in the AAS but the view here from Princeton and Caltech (where I did my Ph.D) work may not be representative of the country as a whole. Bill Sebok Princeton University, Astrophysics {allegra,akgua,cbosgd,decvax,ihnp4,noao,philabs,princeton,vax135}\ !astrovax!wls ------------------------------ From: harvard!knight@caip.rutgers.edu (Kevin Knight) Subject: Zelazny's Amber (long) Date: 26 Jan 86 22:24:15 GMT Amber fans -- What follows is a history of The Chronicles of Amber, with the events in their proper order (I hope!). My brother and I worked this out over the holidays, and it doesn't include Trumps of Doom yet. I guess this is the *ultimate* spoiler, so don't go any further unless you don't care! If you wonder now and then -- *who* did shoot out Corwin's tires? -- then you might enjoy this. Some of the ordering is debatable, so if you think something is wrong or omitted, I'd love to hear from you. My address is "knight@harvard". Finally, for people with a favorite character: save this to a file and do a pattern match, something like "grep Brand ". It's fun! Good-bye and hello, as always, Kevin Knight P.S. Anybody know anything about the next Amber book? Is Trumps of Doom out in paperback? WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO MERLIN?! THE BEGINNING The Jewel is revealed to Dworkin by the Unicorn Dworkin creates Amber out of Chaos Oberon is born Oberon's children are born Dworkin fashions the family Trumps THE OLD DAYS Corwin and Bleys strand Random on an island Random puts a spike in Corwin's boot Brand, Bleys, and Fiona study with Dworkin Random goes to Rebma and elopes with Morganthe Martin born to Random and Morganthe Random banished from Rebma Corwin gulls Caine Corwin beats Julian at his favorite game Benedict fights off the Moonriders out of Ghenesh Dark things out of Shadow attack at Jones Falls Brand has argument with Corwin Corwin rules over Avalon Benedict leaves Amber Corwin and Eric fight while hunting in the Forest of Arden Dworkin tells Oberon how to destroy the Pattern Oberon imprisons Dworkin BEFORE THE CHRONICLES Corwin exiled by Eric after their fight Tomb built for Corwin, assumed dead Brand, Bleys, and Fiona form cabal Brand allies with powers from Chaos and learns about destroying Pattern Brand asks Llewella, Random, and Benedict about Martin Random goes to Texorami Brand paints a trump of Martin Brand finds Martin and stabs him over the Pattern Oberon gets mad with Eric and glorifies Corwin over dinner Flora first spots Corwin on Shadow Earth Oberon is lured away by Brand, Bleys, and Fiona Oberon goes into hiding Bleys and Eric argue over the throne; Bleys leaves Amber Eric seizes control of Amber Brand tries to win Caine over to the cabal, fails Eric-Caine-Julian alliance formed Brand sees Corwin in Tir-na Nog'th Brand under surveillance by Eric in Amber Bleys and Fiona split with Brand Corwin begins to regain memory Brand escapes Amber, puts Corwin in Porter Sanitarium Brand recaptured by Eric Brand escapes again, shoots Corwin's tires out Eric puts Corwin in Greenwood, under Flora's care Brand captured by Bleys and Fiona, put in Tower Brand calls Random for help Random attempts to save Brand, fails Julian contacts Random about the throne Random loses his Trumps NINE PRINCES IN AMBER Corwin escapes Greenwood, goes to Flora's house Corwin finds Flora's Trumps Flora attempts to return to Amber, fails Random arrives at Flora's house Corwin and Random set out for Amber Corwin and Random take Julian prisoner in Arden, release him Corwin and Random save Deirdre, go to Rebma Random sentenced to marry Vialle Corwin walks Pattern in Rebma Corwin transports himself to Amber Corwin and Eric fight Corwin goes to Bleys, encamped at Avernus Bleys and Corwin make alliance Corwin makes deals with Gerard and Caine to open the seas Corwin contacts Oberon and Brand by Trump, both weakly Corwin and Bleys build force, attack Amber, fail Bleys falls off stairs, Corwin taken Eric crowned Corwin blinded, imprisoned, fed by Lord Rein Corwin escapes to Cabra with Dworkin's help Corwin stays with Jopin at the Lighthouse Corwin resists Trump contact, decides to leave Cabra THE GUNS OF AVALON Corwin goes to Lorraine Corwin meets Lance, travels to the Keep of Ganelon Corwin meets Lorraine, the girl Someone attempts to contact Corwin once more Corwin and Ganelon defeat the Black Circle Corwin and Ganelon travel to Avalon Benedict defeats the Hellmaids Corwin and Ganelon meet Benedict Corwin meets Dara Ganelon kills Benedict's servants Corwin gets diamonds and gunpowder Corwin and Ganelon leave Avalon, encounter Black Road Corwin saves girl from Black Road Benedict chases Corwin, fights, loses Corwin calls Gerard to help Benedict Corwin gets guns on Earth Eric begins major battle with Black Road Corwin visits old house, reads Eric's message Ganelon and Corwin march on Amber Dara arrives in Amber Corwin wins the battle for Amber Eric dies in battle Corwin and Random go to the Pattern Dara completes the Pattern Dara claims "Amber will be destroyed" SIGN OF THE UNICORN Caine is found dead Random tells his story (of the Tower) to Corwin Corwin attunes to the Jewel Flora tells her story (of Eric, etc.) to Corwin Corwin visits his tomb with Ganelon Corwin and Gerard fight, bury Caine, at the Grove of the Unicorn Corwin and Gerard see the Unicorn Brand is returned by united family effort Fiona stabs Brand Caine stabs Corwin Corwin returns to Shadow Earth, stashes Jewel Random brings Corwin back to Amber Corwin visits Brand Corwin goes to Tir-na Nog'th, gets mechanical arm from Benedict Corwin, Ganelon, and Random follow Unicorn to Primal Pattern THE HAND OF OBERON Martin's Trump found in the Pattern Benedict and Random seek Martin Corwin talks to Vialle Corwin goes to Dworkin's quarters Corwin trumps to the Courts of Chaos Corwin returns via Gerard's Trump Corwin talks to Brand again Caine attacks Brand Ganelon tells Benedict about Dara Corwin and Benedict form alliance Gerard fights Corwin again, Ganelon intercedes Corwin talks to Julian Corwin returns to Earth to retrieve the Jewel Brand gets the Jewel first Corwin talks to Fiona Corwin orders all the Patterns guarded Brand starts walking the Primal Pattern Corwin intercepts him, forces Brand to transport out Random finds Martin, who tells his story Brand goes to Tir-na Nog'th to walk Pattern there Benedict intercepts him, regains the Jewel, using mechanical arm Ganelon reveals himself as Oberon THE COURTS OF CHAOS Oberon takes command, gives separate orders to his children Replay of Tir-na Nog'th scene in Amber, Benedict loses arm Corwin talks to Dara, learns of Merlin Corwin tries to repair the Pattern himself and is stopped by Oberon Corwin talks to Oberon Oberon orders everyone to attack Chaos Corwin begins his hellride Oberon starts walking the Pattern to repair it Oberon sends the Jewel to Corwin via the bird Brand's first contact with Corwin ("Dad failed") Corwin hides in cave, meets man with scripture Corwin almost lured by dwarves and by Lady Brand's second contact with Corwin (appears with crossbow, loses eye) Corwin meets Ygg, Hugi, and the Jackal Corwin inscribes a new Pattern Brand's third contact with Corwin (grabs the Jewel) Corwin and Brand both transport to Chaos Corwin kills Duke Borel of Chaos Battle of Chaos Oberon's message in the sky Brand killed by Caine's crossbow, drags Deirdre over the cliff Family reunites after the battle Oberon's funeral Merlin appears Random made King of Amber by the Unicorn Corwin attunes Random to the Jewel Random diverts the Wave of Chaos as Corwin tells his story to Merlin ------------------------------ From: hogge@uiucdcsp.CS.UIUC.EDU Subject: 7th Amber book? Date: 25 Jan 86 04:00:00 GMT I just polished off the 6th book of Amber (Zelazny's "Trumps of Doom"). Kind of leaves you hanging, doesn't it? I liked it the best of all the Amber books, since the mystery-novel elements were stronger. (Some of the previous books' mysteries weren't very tight.) The question is, Is there a 7th book out or coming soon? What if Zelazny dies suddenly? I'd be screwed for LIFE!! John ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 86 02:14:11 EST (Mon) Subject: Re request from an SF Diletante From: ted%bragg1@braggfs Well, I can tell you what I thought were classics when I was his age, books that helped solidify my adddiction to SF. I'm scared to reread some of them now (not to mention not having the time). Someday, I want to make a posting just of my favorite juveniles too. Doc Smith - Yes. People laugh at his characters today, but his books had such scope and sweep that I never noticed. (I'm not even sure I would today). Sense of wonder is what the genre is about and few people inspired it better. My personal favorites were an obscurer work, _Spacehounds of the IPC_, and _Skylark 3_, where he really started to pull out all the stops. Heinlein - Almost all of his jeuviniles are classics. If I had to pick two, they would be _Space Cadet_ and _Starship Troopers_. Of his non juvenile work, the best is probably _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ and _Time Enough For Love_ (though you might want to read them before passing them on to a 15 year old). Clarke - Clarke never had much appeal to me at that age (or now either for that matter), with the wonderful exception of 1 book : _Against the Fall of Night_. He later rewrote it as _The City and the Stars_, but for me the first version remains definitive. (Both stay in print). Along with a list of juveniles, I want also to make a fuller list of books that were important to me in starting off, but that would take more research and pondering than I have time for now, so just let me close by boosting an author I have mentioned before on the net and anthologies. Alan Nourse - Nourse wrote a number of juveniles that I read over and over again. My favorite (and still one of my all time favorites) was _Raiders From the Rings_, but I must have read _The World Between_ almost as much, and a book about two estranged brothers (_Scavengers_ ? maybe) learning to respect each other in some sort of crisis (sorry, that one's a little hazy now). He also had a story collection _Psi High and Others_, and a number of books and stories of a future galactic society where Earth was the center of medical knowledge (Hospital Earth). And anthologies. SF was, and still to a large extent is, a genre of short stories and many (perhaps the bulk) of its classic moments come in them. There is one absolutely essential anthology : _Adventures in Time and Space_, edited by Mccomas and Healy (I think). They mined the literature before anyone else thought to, and by and large every story is a classic. Also, Groff Conklin used to put together huge anthologies of classic stories and these are well worth having and reading. Beyond that, it gets spotty, but _The Astounding/Analog Reader_ edited by Harry Harrison (probably) sticks in my memory (Remember the first time you read "The Cold Equations"?). The Science Fiction Hall of Fame books cover good teritory too. As I say, one day I want to make a better list, but these ought to keep him busy for a while. Ted Nolan ted@braggfs PS: Almost forgot ERB. He doesn't get much good critical press, but he was seminal and wrote some genuine classics. _A Princess of Mars_ in particular has to be one of the most imitated books in SF, enough so that there is now a subgenre of "swords and planets" books. Very few of them catch the true spirit of the original though; get it. ------------------------------ From: ico!chris@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Request from an SF Diletante Date: 24 Jan 86 14:14:00 GMT Doc Smith Yes! The Lensman series is the best exposition of the galactic viewpoint that i've seen. Also good is anything by James H. Schmitz. His "The Witches Of Karres" and "Agent of Vega" are particularly enjoyable. Chris Kostanick hao!ico!chris ------------------------------ From: oliven!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barbara Jernigan) Subject: Re: DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL Date: 24 Jan 86 17:14:26 GMT > If you haven't seen it LAND THAT TIME FORGOT is a pretty good > adventure film in spite of a few of the special effects. And it > is more satisfying than the Burroughs novel it was based on. > Mark Leeper I wouldn't go so far as to say LAND THAT TIME FORGOT is a *pretty* good adventure film -- but it is a good adventure film. Certainly worth catching on the tube when it comes round. Barb ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 31 Jan 86 0838-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #28 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 31 Jan 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 28 Today's Topics: Books - Auel & Hubbard & Landis & Sagan & Wolfe & Zelazny & Back Cover Blurbs & Story Requests (2 msgs) & Story Answers (2 msgs) & Book Recommendation, Miscellaneous - SILiCON & The Space Shuttle (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wmartin@brl-smoke.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: Jean Auel writing style Date: 28 Jan 86 16:24:07 GMT There has been some critcal comment on the networks about the writing style, romance-novel-style sex scenes, etc., in Auel's books, especially the latest one (Mammoth Hunters). In the light of this discussion, I thought I'd post an extract from an article about her that appeared in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Monday, Jan. 27, 1986 (pg E1): "When Auel sat down in 1977 to write a short story about a prehistoric woman, she got caught up in her research. In the end, she found herself with a huge manuscript, enough for six books. Then she reread it, she says, 'and it was awful. I realized I had to learn how to write.' So she taught herself." I would guess that some of the posters who have criticized the style would say that she didn't do that great a job... :-) Actually, the criticisms I have seen are not surprising if the above is taken into account. They seemed to center on too much fluff or padding, and that is what you have when you start off with a "huge manuscript" as described. You need really ruthless editing to pare such stuff down to pure lean meat, and I suppose the "giant-novel" trends we have seen so much of have reduced the publishers' interest in such trimming. Regards, Will ------------------------------ Date: Tue 28 Jan 86 18:23:02-PST From: William "Chops" Westfield Subject: L. Ron Hubbard dies The church of scientology announced monday (27-jan) night. he was 74. So much for the decology. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 86 10:27 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: book info req. In regards to the book that was similar to Stasheff's "Warlock ...", I believe you're talking about the Camolot books by Arthur Landis. These consist of "A World Called Camolot", "Camolot in Orbit", and another book of which I don't the title. These books were very good. The main character is a terran agent sent to Camolot, a world where magic seems to work. He was sent there because the previous agents had been sending some very strange reports up until the reports stopped coming. This agent poses as a warrior, and since he comes from a high gravity world, he has a lot of strength. He also has some nifty devices with him that come in handy. The idea is not to disturb the inhabitants, and not to let them know that he is from outside. These devices produce effects similar to magic. A very good example of Lazarus Long's comment "A sufficiently high level of technology is indistinguishable from magic." (Or something like that.) Is this the book you meant? Brett Slocum (Slocum@HI-MULTICS) ------------------------------ From: cernvax!rbt@caip.rutgers.edu (rbt) Subject: looking for Sagan's first novel Date: 30 Jan 86 21:54:49 GMT I know that,some months ago,the first novel of Carl Sagan has appeared in the bookshops in the U.S..The novel should be about the first contact of mankind with extra-terrestrial intelligences.I would like to place an order for this book ,but I don't remember the publisher. Anybody know? Thanks in advance. ------------------------------ From: analog!kim@caip.rutgers.edu (Kim Helliwell ) Subject: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun Date: 27 Jan 86 22:25:37 GMT I've seen several kudos on this newsgroup for Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun, and they nearly always prompt the following train of thought in my mind: What is it that you who love it (and read and re-read it avidly) see in it that I am missing? I've made it to the end of the second volume, the one which ends with the invitation to journey further with the protagonist, but does not blame the reader if he chooses not to--saying "it is no easy journey". Even up to that point it is no easy journey, so I've paused long to consider whether I want to go any further! I must be missing some crucial point--is it something that will come clear if I go on, or would the net advise me to abandon it because, "if you have to ask, you ain't never going to know!" If someone could explain in his own words what it is that Wolfe is trying to do with this work, it might help. hplabs!analog!kim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 86 10:25:52 CST From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI Subject: Zelazny movie? Just noticed the following in the author-biography blurb in the back of the Ballantine paperback edition of Zelazny's ROADMARKS (copyright 1979, this edition published August 1980): "He is currently working on a full-ength animated film 'involving elements of American Indian mythology'." So it seems that this project was in the works circa 1980. I don't recall hearing anything else about this anywhere, either on SF-Lovers or anywhere else, and I wonder if anyone has any info to offer about this. Is it a project that died a-borning? Is it something Zelazny is still working on (maybe on and off at times)? Or was it completed but never released, or released but never distributed, or what? Please post any data you might have on this! Regards, Will ------------------------------ From: teklds!davidl@caip.rutgers.edu (David Levine) Subject: Back cover blurbs Date: 22 Jan 86 18:04:52 GMT Anne McCaffrey said it best: "Back cover blurb writers have only two goals in life. The first is to give everything away. The second is to get it all wrong!" This statement pretty much sums up my opinion of back cover blurbs. I generally try to avoid reading the back cover until after I've finished the book; I rely on reviews (especially reviews in net.sf-lovers and net.books) for information about books I'm considering purchasing. That's why I'm disappointed and chagrined to find several recent reviews in net.sf-lovers that begin with the back cover blurb, verbatim. I could understand it if the reviewer feels that the blurb sums up the book better than he or she could, but in some of these the reviewer follows the quote of the blurb with something like "As usual, the jacket description is rather overblown and misleading." If this is the case, why include the blurb as the first screen or more of the review? I don't recall whether it's one particular reviewer that's doing this, or several different ones. I just wish {he,she,they} would stop. Just review the book, please, and if we want to read the back cover we can do it in the bookstore or library. I hope that this doesn't lead to any flames. Help keep sf-lovers civil! David D. Levine (...{decvax,ihnp4,hplabs}!tektronix!teklds!davidl) [UUCP] (davidl%teklds%tektronix@csnet-relay.arpa) [ARPA] ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 86 18:34:33 EST (Wed) From: jgold@BBNCC6.ARPA I am posting this for a sci-fi lovin' friend 1. WANTED: a Xerox copy would be peachy, books better. A copy of the story "Stone Circle" by Lisa Tuttle from Amazing Science Fiction - March 1976 An old H.P. Lovecraft book of short stories called "Mountains of Madness". 2. Can any one identify a sci-fi love story by Pg Wyal (sp?) about a prince and a princess, published in 1970 in an anthology paperback. Please reply to Jamie Gold (jgold@bbncc6.arpa) BBN Communications Corp. 33 Moulton Street Cambridge, MA 02238 (617) 497-3673 ------------------------------ From: valid!jao@caip.rutgers.edu (John Oswalt) Subject: What is the name of this story? Date: 30 Jan 86 16:58:49 GMT Once upon a time (about 15 years ago) I read a story which I have been trying ever since to find again. It was pecularly constructed, so as to have a suprise beginning. It was in three parts: the first part was prefaced by "This is the end of the story"; the second by "This in the middle of the story"; the third by "This is the beginning of the story." It was about novelette length. I think it had robots in it. Somehow I have the notion in my mind that it was written by Henry Kuttner (possibly writing as Lewis Padgett), but I have searched my Kuttner collection (which is extensive but not complete) and failed to find it. Can any of you netlanders help me? advaTHANKSnce John Oswalt (..!{hplabs,amd,pyramid,ihnp4}!pesnta!valid!jao) ------------------------------ From: sigma!bill@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Swan) Subject: Re: The Man who was a Jazz Band Date: 24 Jan 86 07:32:42 GMT keesan@bbncci writes: >My associative memory says that this story is called "Double, >Double", and that it was in one of the Judith Merill "Best of 19.." >anthologies, [among other places]. I remember the book being a >relatively thick paperback with a black (possibly slightly >star-speckled) cover, and probably number 5 or 6 in Merrill's >"Best" series. I think this would date it some time in the middle >or late 1960s. My memory refuses to come up with an author for >this Very good! It _is_ "Double, Double, Toil and Trouble" by Holley Cantine, copyright 1959. The book is Judith Merril's 6th Annual Edition The Year's Best SF (black cover with a ?planet? on it - 50 cents) for 1961. William Swan {ihnp4,decvax,allegra,...}!uw-beaver!tikal!sigma!bill ------------------------------ From: apollo!johnf@caip.rutgers.edu (John Francis) Subject: When The Bough Breaks (and book-finder request) Date: 27 Jan 86 20:56:22 GMT "When the Bough Breaks" was republished in the Asimov/Greenberg series of anthologies "The Great SF Stories" volume 6 (1944). It was also in the anthology "Tomorrow's Children" edited by Isaac Asimov. I used to have a copy of this latter book, but unfortunately it vanished. If anybody out there has a (paperback) copy of it they would be prepared to part with I would LOVE to hear from them. {.....}!decvax!wanginst!apollo!johnf or, since communications with decvax have been a bit unreliable of late, {.....}!hsi!yale!apollo!johnf John Francis (617)-256-6600 Ext. 5329. 10 Nutmeg Drive Nashua NH 03062 ------------------------------ From: inmet!frankr@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Request from an SF Diletante Date: 29 Jan 86 05:18:00 GMT Classic science fiction? I bet you get *tons* of replies. My list of classic novels: o Heinlein - The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, Stranger In A Strange Land, Beyond This Horizon o Sturgeon - More Than Human, The Synthetic Man o Zelazny - Lord of Light, This Immortal o Simak - Waystation, City o Brunner - Stand On Zanzibar o Bester - The Demolished Man, The Burning Man o Herbert - Dune o Disch - Camp Concentration o Delany - Nova o Panshin - Rite Of Passage o Farmer - To All Your Scattered Bodies Go o Leiber - Conjure Wife o LeGuin - Left Hand Of Darkness o Pohl - Gateway, The Space Merchants o Wells - The Time Machine, The War Of The Worlds o Verne - Mysterious Island o Niven - Ringworld (Talk about self fulfilling prophecies! :-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 86 01:02:35 est From: Steve Strassmann Subject: Last call for SILiCON Last fall, I sent a blurb about SILiCON to this list, since it seems to have the audience most likely to be interested. Since the entry deadline's coming up, I figured I'd give it one more go. SILiCON is a marathon role-playing game/convention that'll be held in the Boston area on March 21-23, 1986. Basically, the Society for Interactive Literature (SIL) is a bunch of students who've run a similar game at Boskone (the Boston SF convention) for 4 years, and it's been so successful, we decided to start our own con just for the game. The emphasis is on both Interactive and Literature. In each of 6 games, there's 60 or so players and 3-4 gamesmasters. When you apply, you select a game and fill out a brief personality questionnaire. We then mail you a confirmation and the slimmest of descriptions about your character. On Friday of the game, you arrive at the hotel where we hand you a thick envelope containing your character's description and situation, the rules, and random possessions like money or tokens representing game items. You then have 48 hours to interact with your fellow players in the halls and rooms of the hotel, resolving crises and cooperating, blackmailing, trading, and generally living the story. We easily write 300-400 pages of supporting material for each of the games (there are no minor characters, all players are major protagonists), but how the events resolve is left open to the creativity of the players. The six games are Rude Awakening: On a spaceship, the (a)crew (b)passengers (c)cargo is restless. See Jane Run: Within Jane's body, fight infections with antibodies and skill. Road to the Future: Time travelers have problems with the space-time continuum. Rule Psix: At the Psionic Olympics, the athletes (and visitors) are preparing. Shadows of Sundown: After WWIII, it takes more than muscle to survive. Twilight of the Gods: Based on Wagner's Ring Cycle, a world of Good vs. Evil. If you're interested, please reply soon, since the deadline is Feb. 21. Please reply directly to me, since I'm not on SF-Lovers. I'd also be interested in any comments you have. Me: SIL: Steve Strassmann Society for Interactive Literature 3 Ames St. [or] 130 Morrison Ave. Cambridge, MA 02139 Somerville, MA 02144 Net: straz@media-lab.mit.edu Phone: MIT dormline 6280 or (617) 577-1520 ------------------------------ From: hadron!klr@caip.rutgers.edu (Kurt L. Reisler) Subject: IN MEMORIUM Date: 30 Jan 86 03:12:06 GMT This was left on one of my FIDONET BBS in response to the request for thoughts on the shuttle tragedy. TO: Sysop on 109/74 From: Lloyd Schwartz 29 Jan 86 20:32:21 SUBJECT: Challenger Demise For those who did not identify President Reagan's moving poetic closing literary allusion, the following original text of the WWII flier's piece will be appropriate: "Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings; Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth Of sun-split clouds ... and done a hundred things You have not dreamed of ... wheeled and soared and swung High in sunlit silence. Hov'ring there, I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung My eager craft through footless halls of air ... Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace, Where never lark, or even eagle flew ... And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod The high untrespassed sanctity of space, Put out my hand and touched the face of God." What could be a better tribute, and memorial, to those who died in Space? ------------------------------ From: hadron!klr@caip.rutgers.edu (Kurt L. Reisler) Subject: Space Shuttle Children's Fund Date: 30 Jan 86 14:34:46 GMT A trust fund has been established by the American Security Bank in Washington DC. The funds gathered are to be used to provide financial assistance to the children of the 7 astronauts killed in the explosion of the space shuttle. For additional information, you can call 1-800-462-7878 Checks can be sent to: Space Shuttle Children's Fund American Security Bank Box 0150 Washington, DC 20055 Checks should be made out to: The Space Shuttle Children's Fund The Dream is, and must remain, alive! Kurt Reisler ..!seismo!hadron!klr ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Feb 86 0951-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #29 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 4 Feb 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 29 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Hubbard & McCaffrey & Wolfe & Zahn & Recommendations (2 msgs), Films - Runaway & Nightfall, Radio - Dr. Who, Miscellaneous - Hardbound Library & Challenger & Boskone Query ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Feb 86 05:25 CST From: MSgt Robert L. Stevenson Subject: Piers Anthony Does it Again! FLAME ON Well, he's done it again. _Crewel Lye_ was not the last of the Xanth books. I just saw another, this one about Grundy the Golem. Now I enjoyed the first book as much as anyone. The puns were interesting and the overall effect was cute, but come now, there should be a limit to the number of times a gag like that can be used. FLAME OFF Steve DOET.AFCC@AFCC-3.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 1986 10:11:57-EST From: clapper@NADC Subject: Piers Anthony/Xanth > The quality of Xanth books has steadily been declining. Anthony > gives partial credit to his fans and his new word processor for > this one, and I have to say that it shows those two as faults. I find it amusing that Anthony now uses a word processor. In the author's notes at the back of "On A Pale Horse" (the strangest author's notes I've ever read, by the way), he mentions his disdain for technology, preferring to write in a shed using an old typewriter. Something gave me the impression that he used a bare incandescent bulb for lighting, but it's been a long time since I've read that book, and I could be wrong. I remember thinking, "What a strange attitude for a supposed science fiction writer to have..." I agree with the Xanth assessment, by the way. After "Dragon On A Pedestal", I decided I couldn't stomach any more - a pity, since I liked the first few Xanth books. Brian Clapper clapper@NADC.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 86 11:40:34 EST From: Will Martin Subject: L. Ron Hubbard dies From the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Tuesday, 26 Jan. '86: Los Angeles (AP) -- L. Ron Hubbard, the science fiction writer who founded the controversial Church of Scientology three decades ago, has died, the church announced Monday night. He was 74. Hubbard, who was last seen in public in 1980, died Friday of a stroke at his ranch near San Luis Obispo, 150 miles northwest of downtown Los Angeles, said the Rev. Heber Jentzch, president of the Church of Scientology International. Hubbard did not control the church and its corporations for the past few years, said Jentzch. Hubbard's ashes were scattered at sea, said Earle Cooley, the church's chief counsel. Hubbard left most of his estate to Scientology, Cooley said. "L. Ron Hubbard, after making very generous provision for his surviving wife and certain of his children, has left the entire balance of his estate, which is very substantial, to Scientology," Cooley said. Hubbard and his third and surviving wife, Mary Sue Hubbard, founded the church in 1954. He laid out the Scientology doctrine in "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health," a book that has sold millions of copies. The wealthy church has battled the Internal Revenue Service and has fought suits filed by former members. The church has claimed up to 6 million members worldwide since the height of the movement in the 1970's. Defectors, however, have put the number at closer to 2 million. *** End of article*** Well, I think THIS gives lots of food for speculation. He died and was cremated and the ashes scattered, hmmmm... Well, those that have claimed tht he has been dead for some time can use THAT as start for discussion! Also, he left bequests to "CERTAIN of his children". Again, sounds like the makings of a fairly bitter internecine quarrel... Regards, Will ------------------------------ Date: Sat 1 Feb 86 11:42:57-PST From: Mark Crispin Subject: post-WHITE DRAGON era I dispute the comment about F'lar being about 60 at the end of THE WHITE DRAGON. If F'lar was 19 when R'gul took over, then R'gul's decade as Weyrleader plus Jaxom's age would make F'lar in his late 40's or early 50's. However, that is certainly old enough to make it unlikely that he would see the end of Threadfall, 30+ years hence. Robinton would probably be about 70, since his father was 90ish when he died at Half Circle Sea Hold a few years earlier. I doubt that McCaffrey will write a post-WHITE DRAGON story, but here are some of my predictions: they will rediscover the telephone (a primitive version already existed for short distances) but not flight. The dragonriders will diverge into transportation, at rather stiff fares to make up for the inevitable lost tithings. Mirrim will not be the last female greenrider; the percentage of woman greenriders will continue to increase until women became the majority. Increasingly, there will be discrimination and oppression against male greenriders, only hinted at in the Dragonrider series. Sebell will be MasterHarper, and Mennoly a master, something will continue to raise opposition. However, in general, there won't be much to write about. Pernese future looks fairly well-established, after millenia of stagnation. ------------------------------ From: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu (Michaelntz) Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun Date: 31 Jan 86 02:03:00 GMT We are asked: > If someone could explain in his own words what it is that Wolfe is > trying to do with this work, it might help. > hplabs!analog!kim What Wolfe is trying to do is raise science fiction to a higher degree of literary value than has EVER EXISTED, beyond question. I have read a hell of a lot of SF and a hell of a lot more `serious' fiction than that (I'm an MA in literature/writing), and all I can tell you, though the Book Of The New Sun is too long and complex for your question to be answerable outside of an extended thesis (shit, I won't pretend I really understand the damn books - they defy that), is that if you are not blown away by now, at the end of the The_Claw_Of_The_Conciliator, if you are not shaking your head at Wolfe's awesome scope, his dazzling imagination, his miraculously skilled prose - well, man, go back to clowns like Heinlein and Asimov. Gene Wolfe is, quite simply, the best novelist ever to write in the science fiction genre. His prose, his ideas - all of it. The best. Hands down. Michael Krantz ------------------------------ Date: 1 Feb 86 12:55:02 PST (Saturday) Subject: "Cobra Strike" by Timothy Zahn From: Cate3.EIS@Xerox.COM Cobra Strike takes place about thirty years after "Cobra". Our hero Jonny Moreau from "Cobra" is still part of the plot but no shares the spotlight with his sons. The cover mentions that the Troft, the aliens, want to hire some cobras as mercenaries. And the plot is in response to this. It is a good story. Enjoyed every page. The plot moves along very well. Zahn has done a good job of writing a sequel. If you like "Cobra" I think you'll enjoy "Cobra Strike" Henry III ------------------------------ From: im4u!jsq@caip.rutgers.edu (John Quarterman) Subject: Re: Request from an SF Diletante Date: 2 Feb 86 08:23:01 GMT guy@slu70.UUCP (Guy M. Smith) writes: >jsq@im4u.UUCP (John Quarterman) writes: >> For Arthur Clarke, try The City and the Stars. >Wasn't this by James Blish. I'm thinking of the series about the >Okie cities. It's worth reading in any case. No. The Blish series is called Cities in Flight. I've read it several times. I still remember the First Freedom: the Freedom to Hate. Hardly the best freedom, but it made me think, at least. The City and the Stars is about something else altogether. And something different than most Clarke stories. Which is why it is so good. If you want something like most Clarke stories which is still good, try the short story ``The Nine Billion Names of God''. >Another favorite of mine is "City" written by (I think) Clifford >Simak. Yes. It was Simak. I never particularly cared for it (talking dogs appeal to me no more than talking cats). However, he recently (within five years) wrote what I consider absolutely the best story about immortality ever penned. I don't remember the title ("Ancient of Days"?) but it was about a man who had survived for something like ten thousand years and how he managed it. The methods were not those of Lazarus Long (which character I like for other reasons). The second best story abouut immortality is the novel by Poul Anderson about (albeit indirectly) Mary O'Meara. I can never remember the title. I can never forget the story. Does anyone remember Cordwainer Smith? If not, you should.... And Jack Vance. And of course Gene Wolfe. People have extolled the virtues of The Book of the New Sun (deservedly) but does no one remember The Fifth Head of Cerberus? As far as classics, if ``The Ugly Chickens'' by Howard Waldrop doesn't make it into any book of Classics of 80s SF, it's a shame. John Quarterman UUCP: {gatech,harvard,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq ARPA Internet and CSNET: jsq@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU, jsq@sally.UTEXAS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 86 9:50:42 EST From: "Daniel P. Dern" Subject: Book Recommendations Thanks to all who responded directly or indirectly to my query about Gordon Dickson's FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA. By that point, I was already halfway into a copy. I wish to confirm, in my opinion, the book is a "good read." After reading [pause to don HEFLMP garb] ROBOTS & EMPIRE, and CAT WHO WALKED THROUGH WALLS, it was gratifying to read a book by an author I've enjoyed for ~ two decades and have it be 'up to par.' Dickson is a good writer - competent enough that he doesn't intrude. It was clear from the beginning that he knew in advance where the book was going, and by what route. And at the end, he had indeed gotten there. It doesn't hurt to have read the preceding books; it certainly gives more context to the events. Again: a good read. And here's a new recommendation for a not new book: SS-BG, by Len Deighton. Deighton is viewed as a suspense/intrigue writer, author of FUNERAL IN BERLIN and all sorts of other neat books. This one is SF a la Phillip Dick's MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE -- a parallel world. Here, England surrendered to Germany early during World War II. The book takes place in the early 1940s. It's reasonably complex. Like many murder mysteries, it doesn't untangle until the very end. Books like this are a good example of why many people DON'T like SF, in a way -- this one is well written, well paced, with good characters, etc. It is lightyears ahead of most sf in terms of quality. Sure, it's hard to write good sf. It's also easy to write bad sf. Whether it's the genre, the tradition, or the readership, the suspense & intrigue books are on the average better than average sf, or certainly more competent, or whatever the metric is. Or else I've only been reading the better ones of this sibling ghetto/genre. Daniel Dern ddern@bbn.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 86 09:41 EST From: Richard Pavelle Subject: Runaway There is a 1984 SF film called Runaway with Tom Selleck on cable this month. I found it quite enjoyable and wonder whether it ever made it into the cinemas. I do not remember it. Does anyone recall whether it did? A related question: It often seems that good movies appear on cable that have never played in the cinemas. How does this happen? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 86 17:16 PST From: Michael Wahrman Subject: Nightfall scheduled for film According to the Jan 31 issue of Daily Variety, Julie Corman, wife of Roger Corman, will produce "Nightfall" from the Isaac Asimov short story. The film is scheduled for a Fall start. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 86 15:04:02 CST From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI Subject: Dr. Who radio Re the reference to the BBC radio version of Dr. Who (SFL #24): I've been listening to the Dr. Who serial that has been being aired on BBC shortwave for a few weeks, and I can only say that, so far, it's been awful. It is Baker with Peri, and all it seems to be is a silly computer straight out of "Hitchhiker" (similar voice, but feminine, to "Larry the shipboard computer" from HGttG), and a lot of screaming. They seem to have spent the first three episodes running from some indescribable horror lurking in the airshafts of some spaceship. No particular plot has yet emerged. Part of the problem is that the BBC is airing this in 7 or 8-minute-long segments, far too short. I had expected 15-minute segments, and was astounded when the first one ended at what would have been the halfway point. Though, if they were not going to do anything any better than this has been, maybe I should be happy that they are short! :-) Anyway, if you have a shortwave radio, and want to catch the last one or so of these (by the time you read this, there will probably be only one left to go), try tuning on 9510 kHz or 5975 kHz at 0445 GMT Mondays. (That's 10:45 PM CST Sunday nights.) Ironically, this is on at the same time my local PBS station shows Dr. Who TV programs! One other comment: A BBC publicity photo for this series, reproduced in at least one of the shortwave-listener magazines, shows Peri in a very sexually suggestive pose with Baker, with her clutching him from the side and with her thigh lifted up and grinding into his groin. Seemed entirely improper for Dr. Who to imply that he has a sexual relationship with his companions. Is *that* how the later TV series portrays it? (I haven't seen anything later than the first episode with Peri.) Will ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 28 Jan 1986 20:07:47-PST From: wood%nermal.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Celeste Wood) Subject: hardbound library I received a solicitation in USnail today. It is from Easton Press. It is for a library of "Masterpeices of Science Fiction". These books sound pretty nice but since I'm not much in collecting hardbound books I was wondering if anyone could tell me if I am better off getting regular hardbound books. The offer is $32.00 plus $2.50 shipping and handling will get me one book per month bound in leather with 22Kt gold accents. Asimov, Bradbury, and Herbert will autograph their volumes. The titles sound pretty much like a classic SF library. I have read all the books they list. Can anyone tell me if this kind of library is worthwhile from a collectors point of view or just for my own private satisfaction that I finally own these great tomes in a proper binding. I never really justified the cost of hardbound books, especially in an age where a printing of a book contains zillions of copies. I have about a hundred 'favorite' stories which I keep on a special shelf, but they are all paperback. These favorites are not necessarily considered classics, and there are some classics which I do not really care to own. Celeste Wood ARPA: wood%nermal@decwrl.dec ------------------------------ Date: Mon 3 Feb 86 07:12:13-CST From: William DeVaughan Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #28 Re: Challenger Eulogy Message from Reisler/Schwartz- The Poem is High Flight by John Gillespie McGee; it is known and loved by all pilots who fling their dreams through the skies; Having once been in nominal control of one's destiny among the clouds, there is no better way to go than there again, already half-way to God. R.I.P. Challenger 7. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 86 11:01:58 est From: Carol Morrison Is anybody having an sf-lovers party at Boskone this year? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Feb 86 0926-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #30 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 10 Feb 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 30 Today's Topics: Books - Dickson & Hubbard & Robinson & Wolfe (2 msgs) & Author Identification & Mission Earth & The Flying Sorcerors, Films - Runaway, Miscellaneous - Character Expansion & "High Flight" & Boskone XXXIII (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scifi@ukc.ac.uk (I.L.Sewell) Subject: Re: Book Recommendations Date: 4 Feb 86 18:07:30 GMT >From: "Daniel P. Dern" >Thanks to all who responded directly or indirectly to my query >about Gordon Dickson's FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA. By that point, I was >already halfway into a copy. I wish to confirm, in my opinion, the >book is a "good read." After reading [pause to don HEFLMP garb] >ROBOTS & EMPIRE, and CAT WHO WALKED THROUGH WALLS, it was >gratifying to read a book by an author I've enjoyed for ~ two >decades and have it be 'up to par.' Dickson is a good writer - >competant enough that he doesn't intrude. It was clear from the >beginning that he knew in advance where the book was going, and by >what route. And at the end, he had indeed gotten there. It >doesn't hurt to have read the preceeding books; it certainly gives >more context to the events. Again: a good read. The book may be a good read but in my opinion you read 500+ pages to get ..well nowhere really. I agree Dickson is a good writer I wouldn't have the book otherwise, and he keeps you hooked right to the end where the book falls flat on its face. Okay there is nothing wrong with the end but as the culmination of a twelve(?) volume saga and 500+ pages you expect a bit of a climax. In fact the book is such written that a climax is really expected, okay not a galactic war but al least a confrontation with an ending and not the 'okay you've beaten me at the moment but I'll get back at you sometime ' we were given. This really spoiled the whole book for me. Okay now you can flame! Ian Sewell ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 86 12:06 PST From: Dave Dyer Subject: Farewell to Elron >From: William "Chops" Westfield >The church of scientology announced monday (27-jan) night. he was >74. So much for the decology. Don't be too sure. Being dead hardly slows some authors at all, thought usually does affect their quality. Look at Hemmingway! ------------------------------ Subject: Robinson quiz Date: 04 Feb 86 17:17:25 PST (Tue) From: Dave Godwin This message is to the quiz asking person, 'cuz my mailer is having trouble finding his site. I've got the answers to the questions, but you all will have to take my word for it; I'm not gonna put the answers on the bboard. I've got more of the same, however. Sure, Night of Power had some connections with other stories. So did Mindkiller. So name the connections in that book, and then tell me what Robinson story Night of Power just might be a prequel to. I'll post summations of my replies to the net. Dave Godwin University of California, Irvine (godwin@icse.uci.edu) ------------------------------ From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun Date: 5 Feb 86 07:59:42 GMT The Book of the New Sun is in some ways a difficult work. If you don't like it, then by all means read something you will like better. However, since the question was why others like it... First, ignore the person who said the world is unique. Wrong. Jack Vance used it frequently, though Wolfe's variation incorporates some Cordwainer Smith as well (you know, when he says "Atomic Age" and it *really* sounds like "Bronze Age"). Nonetheless, it is fascinating to modern people to explore a perspective from which we are not only relegated to a historical junkpile, but completely forgotten and proven to have no significance whatsoever in the overall history of the world. The prose is stunningly crafted. That in itself is not enough to make a book enjoyable -- see William Gibson, who people will get sick of long before 1988. Nonetheless, at this level it is the best science fiction ever: it almost attains the stature of an epic poem. Related to thhe quality of the prose is the quality of the imagery, which is peculiarly evocative. All the grains and colors of a Wolfe scene leap out with all the attribnutes of a vivid three-dimensional perception remembered from childhood. This is done without long, tedious description or focusing on surface features. The plots are what really make the series. For some reason I have yet to figure out, the characters and events really get into my brain and reconfigure it into an Escher lithograph. Their raw potency defies description or summary. If these are not moving you, I don't know what to tell you. Do they seem arbitrary? Pointless? Then you and I have different worlds, or at least different ways of reading. I hope this helps. Try to read the Book as if it were an epic poem in blank verse, and you may come to appreciate it more. Tim Maroney {sun,dual,well,ihnp4,frog}!hoptoad!tim ------------------------------ Date: Wed 5 Feb 86 12:06:11-EST From: Laurence Brothers Subject: Wolfe the best? Well, Wolfe is obviously a great novelist, and the New Sun is undoubtedly the apex of his work so far (Free Live Free was fun, but not great), but I don't think that he is "hands-down" the best sf novelist. The New Sun supernovel had some flaws (though the work is so intricate it is very hard to tell whether something is a bug or a feature), and I didn't think all that much of The Island of Dr. Death and Other Stories and Other Stories (admittedly because I didn't understand much of it). Basically, I don't think that Wolfe has produced enough to make him the Best of the Best--The Book of the New Sun is a tour-de-force until he produces more novels of the same stature. Laurence (back on the net after 9 months...) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 86 9:47:15 EST From: "Daniel P. Dern" Subject: Tentative Author Identification Regarding the query about a story labelled "This is the middle of the story...This is the end...This is the beginning." It sure feels like Cordwainer Smith. Unless it's Samuel Delany's EMPIRE STAR. And I have this nagging feeling of some other story I can't quite place, which ends something like "Beginnings are easy...". Good question. Daniel Dern ddern@bbn.arpa ------------------------------ From: berman@isi-vaxa.ARPA (Richard Berman) Date: 3 Feb 1986 0957-PST (Monday) Subject: MISSION EARTH Re: The Decalogy...In the intro the author states that all ten volumes have already been completed. I imagine that they are undergoing production. The second one is supposed to be out soon. Richard ------------------------------ From: bu-cs!awc@caip.rutgers.edu (Alex Cannon) Subject: Sorcerors - "As a Color, Shade of Purple-Gray" Date: 4 Feb 86 23:53:47 GMT I never noticed anyone mentioning who "As a Color, Shade of Purple-Gray" was supposed to be; if it *has* been beaten to death, please excuse. I had no idea about 90% of the other names, because I've been out of the fan circuit for quite a while (and was never very deep into it), but this one kept nagging me, until I realized who it was. To get it, you just have to know where to put the parens: (As a) (Color, Shade of Purple-Gray) Asi - Mauve ASIMOV! Like I said above, *please* don't berate me if everyone already knew it because it was so obvious... Alex Cannon Boston University Academic Computing Center ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 86 01:14:41 PST From: Peter Reiher Subject: "Runaway" and unreleased films >There is a 1984 SF film called Runaway with Tom Selleck on cable >this month. I found it quite enjoyable and wonder whether it ever >made it into the cinemas. I do not remember it. Does anyone recall >whether it did? >A related question: It often seems that good movies appear on cable >that have never played in the cinemas. How does this happen? "Runaway" was released in the Christmas season of 1984. That Christmas was a phenomenally busy one for films (but not, alas, for good films). You probably missed "Runaway" in the confusion. Or, if you don't live in a fairly large city, "Runaway's" poor to mediocre revenues may have convinced the distributor not to show it elsewhere. There are a variety of reasons good films don't reach the theaters. Probably the most common is that the film is not considered marketable. Even after a film has been shot and edited, there are still many costs associated. Nowadays, it costs millions to advertise a film. If the studio has little confidence in a film, they may well just swallow their loss and not throw what would be, in their opinion, good money after bad. This is especially likely if the film only cost a couple million (or less) to shoot. I've seen several pretty good films at film festivals or previews which were never released, usually for this reason. (On the other hand, if the film cost $20 million to make, it *will* be released, no matter how bad. Spending two million in the hopes of recovering $10 million or so on the turkey is a rather different proposition than gambling more than the cost of the print.) Some films are independently made and never find a distributor. The owners of the film then make what they can by selling it to cable and videocassette. Other films had test engagements in a few cities and flopped, and are then sent out to video pasture. Some films are really terrible, and could not make a nickle in the theaters. Even these have a marginal value on TV. Once in a while, legal problems keep a film out of theaters. I find the growth of cable and videocassettes heartening, in this respect if not others. Many films which would otherwise disappear and gather dust on studio shelves now are released to cable. I get to see films I wouldn't see otherwise. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 86 10:44 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: Character Expansion To: G.GREIG@SU-SCORE.ARPA Some examples of reasonable character development : The War of the Wizards trilogy by Andrew Offut (The Demon in the Mirror, The Eyes of Sarsis, and ) Tiana Highrider starts pretty capable but doesn't exceed reasonableness. The Book of Morgaine trilogy by C.J.Cherryh Morgaine starts out being thought of as a goddess/demoness, but as the books progess, you know her to be more and more human. The Oath of the Renunciates trilogy by Marion Zimmer Bradley (The Shattered Chain, Thendara House, City of Sorcery) Magda Lorne continues to be a realistic character. The Stainless Steel Rat books by Harry Harrison Jim deGriz was always better than the rest, that's why he's a criminal. The Camber Trilogy by Katherine Kurtz Camber was quite human, but became a saint because of popular legend and circumstance. The Deryni Trilogy by Katherine Kurtz Kelson learns to use magic, but as part of normal development. The Wrinkle in Time, etc. books by Madeline L'Engle Charles Wallace Murry who appears in all of these books, does not exceed himself. The Taran books by Lloyd Alexander Taran grows as a person, within reasonable limits. Gateway, etc. by Fredrik Pohl Broadhead is always the insecure, neurotic he starts as, he just has more money. The Tomoe Gozen series by Salmonson I haven't read the third book, but Tomoe Gozen stays the Samurai warrior throughout. Jhereg, Yendi by Steve Brust (Damn, I can't remember his name) Main character keeps pretty much the same throughout. The Amber Series by Roger Zelazny Well, yes. Corwin starts pretty seemingly human, and becomes god-like in the first book, but he really was that way all along. And if you ignore a few exceptional talents that most of the other characters have anyway, he remains pretty much the same. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 86 21:35 EST From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: "High Flight" A previous message quoted in full the poem alluded to by Pres. Reagan in his eulogy to the Challenger crew. The title of the poem is "High Flight" and it was written by John Gillespie Magee, Jr. Magee was born in Shanghai of missionary parents and educated at Rugby, England and Yale. At the beginning of WWII he dropped out of Yale to enlist in the Royal Canadian Air Force. "High Flight" was written hastily on the back of a letter to his parents, after a particularly exhilarating training flight. He was commissioned a Pilot Officer (the RCAF equivalent of a 2LT) at the flying training school at Uplands, near Ottowa, in June of 1941. He was killed in action in England in December of that year, aged nineteen years and a few months. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 86 02:52:07 est From: ringwld!jmturn%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa Subject: SF Lovers @ Boskone In response to a query about an SF-LOVERS party at Boskone: On Saturday night, at 8PM (I'm 99% sure about this, check your pocket program), there will be a panel discussion titled "Electronic Fanac", moderated by your humble narrator. Among those on the panel will be Diane Duane, writer and sysop of the Compuserve SF SIG; and Saul Jaffe, moderator of SF-LOVERS. If a group of SF-LOVERS wanted to retire to a private room for a party after the panel, I certainly wouldn't throw my body in the way. Unfortunately, due to committee commitments (is this redundant?), I will not be able to host such a party. Volunteers? James Turner ARPA ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA decvax \ sri-unix \ UUCP !cca!ringwld!jmturn ima / linus / MAIL 329 Ward Street; Newton, MA 02159 [Moderator's Note: The panel will be at the stated time and I will be there. If any of you would like to meet/talk to me, this is a good time to catch me. I know I'd like to meet as many of you as possible so try and be there.] ------------------------------ Subject: BOSKONE 23 and the Annual Boxboro Fandom Party Date: 05 Feb 86 09:29:59 EST (Wed) From: Bill Dowling SECRETS OF THE LOST TEMPLE OF BOXBORO FANDOM You are invited to attend an open party on Saturday, February 15, 1986 at 9:00pm at the Boston-Sheraton Hotel. The party is being held during Boskone 23, Boston's annual science fiction convention. Beer and munchies will be provided but feel free to contribute by bringing something. Smoking and non-smoking rooms will be provided as well. At last years party, you helped to explore the bottom of the sea. This year, you can seek out the secret of our lost temple. But where to look? No quest is easy, but the rewards can be great. Think about where to find information at Boskone 23, and start your journey there. Boxboro Fandom is a small group of people who enjoy going to conventions and throwing largish parties. We've been doing this for about six years now, with indications that it will go on forever. Come and join this year's party and help make it better than all the past ones! ------------------------------ Date: Thu 06 Feb 1986 13:33:22 EDT From: Subject: Neo-Pagan Events at Boskone Rumor has it that Boskone will host several events concerning Neo-Paganism. Does anyone know anything specific? The MIT Pagan Students Group would very much appreciate having some knowledge in advance. We ourselves hope to organize an informal ritual and/or pagan interest group. Suggestions and offers of help will be welcome... Please reply to SORCEROR at LL.ARPA or ZVONA%AI.AI.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU, not SF-LOVERS. Thanks. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Feb 86 0955-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #31 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 10 Feb 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 31 Today's Topics: Books - Dickson & Martin & McCaffrey (4 msgs) & Varley & Wolfe (3 msgs) & Book Request Answered & Hardbound Library, Films - Runaway (4 msgs), Radio - Dr. Who, Television - Star Trek ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: umcp-cs!israel@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Israel) Subject: Dickson's The Final Encyclopedia Date: 5 Feb 86 23:02:56 GMT I had heard originally that tFE was to be the climax, but since it's come out I've heard different. Supposedly, before Dickson starts writing the historical and contemporary novels, he's planning on writing two more books set in the future. They are called Chantry Guild and Childe. My guess is that Chantry Guild is going to be set just after the ending of Necromancer, and cover the evolution of the destruction oriented Chantry Guild into the Exotics. I've been wanting more on the Exotics, since I find them a much more interesting culture than either the Dorsai or the Friendlies. Childe, I would guess would be the culmination of the series (especially since its called The Childe Cycle). Hopefully, that will have in it both the final battle between Hal and Bleys, as well as what I was expecting to be in tFE, i.e. the merging together of the Splinter Culture mentalities to form a new and improved form of human being. Bruce Israel University of Maryland, Computer Science Dept. {rlgvax,seismo}!umcp-cs!israel (Usenet) israel@Maryland (Arpanet) ------------------------------ Subject: George R.R. Martin Date: 06 Feb 86 16:43:36 PST (Thu) From: Dave Godwin Those of us familiar with Analog will remember the stories about Haviland Tuf, and his EEC Seedship Ark. ( I think it was George R.R. martin who wrote these ). I can remember five or six of these stories over the last several years, three of them in recent issues of Analog. My question is this: Has there yet been a story on how Tuf and his companions ( now all deceased, I believe ) found the derelict Ark in the first place ? Dave Godwin University of California, Irvine ------------------------------ Date: Wed 5 Feb 86 11:06:36-PST From: Randall B. Neff Subject: New McCaffrey From Publishers Weekly, Jan 31, 1986 page 366 Nerilka's Story: A Pern Adventure Anne McCaffrey, illustrated by Edwin Herder Ballentine/Del Rey 12.95 March 21 The latest of McCaffrey's romantic Pern novels expands on the tale of a minor character in Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern. Young Merilka is considered unattractive and overly serious in her own hold, where her preemptory father installs his mistress immediately after his wife's death. Angry and frustrated, Nerilka uses her medical training and her access to the supplies her father is hoarding to help combat the plague sweeping Pern, which has already claimed her mother and sisters. Inevitably, her work with the Healers leads her to Ruatha Hold, whose rugged widower chief, Lord Alessan, sees her worth and marries her. In form, this is basically a Victorian gothic in which a governess tames and marries the gruff master of the house. As such, McCaffrey's legions of fans should enjoy it, but it is a weak entry in the Pern saga. ------------------------------ From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: Re: McCaffrey's Pern series ( maybe spoiler ) Date: 5 Feb 86 23:26:13 GMT mpm@hpfcla.UUCP writes: > It does look like Menolly is developing some of the political > skill necessary in the role of Master Harper. It wouldn't be a > surprise to me if McCaffrey promoted her in a future book. (I > suspect she might introduce some nasty turn of events just to > shake us out of our complacency - just like the return of > Threadfall does to the holders.) Probably only if some nasty event shakes her out of HER complacency - it's amazing how well money will dull a writer's sensibilities. I felt the first book, and about half of the second, were excellent. Good stories, good characters, you name it. The rest of the books are entertaining, but I don't think they're excellent any more - just entertaining. Nothing wrong with that, but excellence is so rare, I hate to see it go... Mike Farren uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 86 18:12 EST From: Andrew Sigel Subject: New Pern Novel A new Pern novel, NERILKA'S STORY, is scheduled to be released on March 21 in hardcover from Del Rey. It's much shorter than her recent ones, only 208 pages, and is illustrated by Edwin Herder. ***** SPOILER WARNING ***** Nerilka was in MORETA; she's one of the daughters of the lord of Fort Hold. The review in Publisher's Weekly is not very complimentary, and ends: "In form, this is basically a Victorian gothic in which a governess tames and marries the gruff master of the house. As such, McCaffrey's legions of fans should enjoy it, but it is a weak entry in the Pern saga. ***** END SPOILER ***** I think I'll wait for the paperback. I'm curious to see if the book is an expansion of the background at the time of MORETA the way DRAGONSONG and DRAGONSINGER were for DRAGONQUEST, giving a second look at the events in the previously published volume, but not that curious, unless it turns out that PW has missed the boat entirely. They've missed the boat badly before, but their description cuts rather close to the bone, so I suspect they may have been accurate this time. Andrew Sigel ------------------------------ From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: New McCaffrey Date: 8 Feb 86 08:53:09 GMT Prospective buyers should be warned that this is basically a novella published with hard covers (and small hard covers at that - the book is somewhere between the size of a paperback and a "normal" hardcover). Seems to me that $12.95 is a little steep... Mike Farren uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667 ------------------------------ Subject: Demon remaindered Date: Tue, 04 Feb 86 16:04:14 -0500 From: Frank Hollander Does this surprise anyone? In my local bookstore they have some remaindered copies of John Varley's DEMON for $7. Since this was (apparently) a pretty limited press run (the hard back), I was really surprised when I saw them (perhaps a dozen copies before I bought two). It's a mall-store, but not part of a chain. Frank Hollander ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 86 15:58:42 PST From: Linda Wald Subject: Gene Wolfe small press books all my letters to Laurence Roberts bounced ........ Castle of the Otter first showed up as a reviewers goof -- he thought that the fourth book of the book of the New Sun was so titled. Wolfe then wrote it anyway -- the subtitle is 'a book about the Book of the New Sun'. It contains essays, history, some background, and even one chapter where all the main characters (who were willing) stand up and tell a joke. If you liked Book of the New Sun, you'll probably enjoy it. It's available from the Science Fiction Book Club. Plan[e]t Engineering is NOT reprints from Plant Engineering (by the way, Wolfe is now writing full time .) It was published by NESFA press, and may still be available from them. It commemorates Wolfes appearence as Boscone XXI GoH. The stories , articles and poems were chosen by a jury of NESFA members. It includes 'Books in the Book of the New Sun' and 'The Computer Iterates the Greater Trumps' as well as stories and , oh yes, one article from Plant Engineering on 'The Anatomy of a Robot' . I enjoyed the collection. If you too enjoy Wolfe, I can reasonably safely say you will too. Good luck getting ahold of it. I read the Ziesing edition of Free Live Free and liked it. If such things bother you, it's really only borderline sf. I haven't read the Tor edition, but A Change of Hobbit has it as does Mark Ziesing Booksellers (P.O.Box 806 Willimantic CT. 06226). Enjoy, Linda Wald (math.linda@ucla.locus.arpa) ------------------------------ From: ISM780!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun Date: 4 Feb 86 15:32:00 GMT I will straddle the fence (and probably incur anatomical difficulties as a result). The first two quotes above I agree with, though I do not associate myself with some of the snotty tone in the sections I deleted. As to the third quote, while I find it arguable, it *is* arguable, e.g., can't be dismissed out of hand. The Book of the New Sun is not for plot readers. Wolfe's use of plot is almost completely centered on progressive revelation and illumination of character, that kernel of all good fiction. TBOTNS is one definition by example of tour de force. He is using SF convention and imagery combined with classical literary technique to portray the life, conflicts, and character development of a fascinating individual in a fascinating world. TBOTNS is written with and to a different sensibility than most SF, and like all literature, you must accept it on its own terms if it is going to "work" for you. If you don't, or for whatever reason can't, such is life. Remember, concerning matters of taste, there is no disputing. (An aphorism that antedates my birth by a good couple of millenia.) Jim Brunet ihnp4/ima/ism780B hao/ico/ism780B ------------------------------ From: ISM780!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun Date: 6 Feb 86 15:12:00 GMT Thought I'd jump back in again. Jim Gardner's response (jagardner @ watmath) is excellent. I wish *I* had written it and I second practically everything he said -- didn't see anything I wouldn't wholeheartedly agree with on one read/think. Thanks, Jim. Jim Brunet ihnp4/ima/ism780B hao/ico/ism780B ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 1986 11:42-EST From: Joseph.Ginder@SPICE.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: Re: Caradoc book request; books on tape I have not read it, but I believe that the title of the book described whose main character's name is Caradoc is "The Eagle and the Raven". It is by Pauline Gedge. I just saw it advertised in a bulletin from Books on Tape. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 1986 06:38-PST Subject: Re: Hardbound Library From: WILBUR@OFFICE-2.ARPA Supply and demand determines the value of books as it does the value of anything else we buy. Unless you want a bunch of pretty books to line the walls and unless you really want the xxx number of books in the set, don't buy any pre-packaged series of books. If you really decide to consider buying the set, make sure that you get a list of titles in the set and see if you can buy each volume one at a time with the right to cancel the remaining volumes at any time. You are better off collecting a particular author, series that you like, subjector small press books. Small press editions tend to retain their value but even that can be risky when you consider what happened to the Stephen King small press book. Faye ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 86 10:44 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Missing movies... Runaway was in the cinemas but didn't last long. This is the case with most movies you haven't seen. Many flicks get a very limited release and then vanish, only to reappear on cable. If you don't live near a big city or a test market you might never see some flicks until they hit cable. At least they make it there... It appears that Ridley Scott's _Legend_ has fallen into this catagory. Has anyone seen it? I heard it was panned by the test audiences, but I have loved the "feel" of every one of his movies (The Duelists, Alien, & Bladerunner). Jon ------------------------------ Date: Wed 5 Feb 86 18:24:22-CST From: Tim McGrath Subject: Re: Runaway Sorry to bother the net, but I can't use the original sender's address. I wasn't enthusiatic about the film `Runaway' (I felt than the SF was implausible and the plot ridiculous), but I believe that the film was in the theatres around Christmas '84; it disappeared after only a few weeks. It's common for a movie not to go into general release. The studio bean-counters cancel a movie's distribution when they feel that promotion and release costs will be more than box-office income (ie, they will lose less money by just sitting on the film). Unfortunately, the `quality' of the film has nothing to do the decision to release it. Terry Gilliam's `Brazil' very nearly met this fate, except for some extraordinary measures taken by Gilliam. It's cheaper to release the film through video cassettes and cable than to release the film to theatres; studios try to recoup their losses in these ways. Tim McGrath [CSNet and ARPA: CS.MCGRATH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 86 13:38:11 est From: John McLean Subject: Runaway I don't remember Runaway being at the movies, but if you liked it you may be glad to know that it's out in video. I saw a VHS version a couple of weeks ago and, like you, enjoyed it. John ------------------------------ From: ritcv!ref0070@caip.rutgers.edu (Robert Fortin) Subject: Re: Runaway Date: 7 Feb 86 17:39:21 GMT Runaway did make to the cinema in the Albany, NY area. I just recently saw it on HBO, and in my opinion it had a poor plot and was completely unbelievable. The killer spider robots were particularly stupid, and I think the movie would be better as an episode for Super-friends or maybe even Voltron. I don't think that this movie has enough class to be considered Science fiction. These are just my opinions. {allegra seiesmo ucbvax}!rochester!ritcv!ref0070 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 86 08:29 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Dr. Who Radio A friend of mine from England sent me a tape of the Doctor Who radio series, entitled "Slipback" I believe, and I quite enjoyed it. Certainly, it was geared for a younger audience, and it gets rather silly at times. But, like Doctor Who in general, if you don't try to take it too seriously, it's a lot of fun. For me, the biggest problem with the radio series is Peri's voice. She's always sounded like fingernails on a blackboard to me, but it's far more easily tolerated when watching episodes than when just sitting and listening to a tape. I suppose the British don't notice as all Americans sound that way to them! I haven't seen of heard of the publicity photo Will mentions and find it quite shocking. I don't think the episodes with Peri imply any sexual relation with the Doctor, although she's obviously there as a sex object for the male audience, so I'm rather surprised that the BBC would make such a photo. Wasn't it they (or was it John Nathan-Turner) who said, "No hanky-panky in the TARDIS"? Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 86 08:34 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Star Trek First of all, I'd like to correct a statement I'd made some issues back. All Star Trek episodes of the First Season HAVE been released on video tape, including "Return of the Archons" and "Tommorrow is Yesterday." I or my video store or their supplier got some wires crossed and I still have to try to find out what happened. Secondly, I have just been appointed the Star Trek Welcommittee's Personal Computer Consultant. I don't suppose any of you need such services, but if any of you would like to offer to be a consultant for me on any particular brands of PCs or software, or would just like to supply me with some info on how you use your PC in your fannish activities, I would very much appreciate it. Just message me directly. Lisa Wahl Star Trek Welcommittee ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Feb 86 1018-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #32 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 19 Feb 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 32 Today's Topics: Books - Christopher & Forward & Herbert & Hubbard & Martin & McCaffrey & Resnick & Smith & Wolfe & Zahn & New Books & Store Address Request, Television - Dr. Who & Tripods, Miscellaneous - Worldcon Mailing Problems ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: re: sf dilly Date: 05 Feb 86 11:10:21 PST (Wed) From: Dave Godwin You said your son was fifteen years old ? Try John Christopher's 'Tripods' trilogy, The White Mountains, The City of Gold and Lead, and the other book I can't quite think of. I read these at about that age and enjoyed them quite a bit. Dave Godwin University of California, Irvine ------------------------------ From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: SETI vs. starflight Date: 10 Feb 86 12:59:01 GMT henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) writes: >Robert Forward,who has studied the matter [starflight] >professionally as a USAF consultant on advanced space propulsion, >says that antimatter propulsion is within our reach with today's >technology. I must confess to a very considerable lack of knowledge about star travel. But this posting brought to mind a book I read recently, "The Flight of the Dragonfly" I think it was called. It was by Robert Forward, and it featured aliens with vast mathematical abilities. Apparantly, Forward had the idea when writing this book that he knew something about mathematics, and nobody told him differently. The result was my nomination for the funniest sf novel since "The Butterfly Kid". Gag me with a functor! I thought I would die laughing. Anyway, I was wondering, does someone out there know enough about this to tell the rest of us if Forward is talking through his hat again (it kind of sounds like it to me, but as I say, I really don't know) or does he know what he is talking about (this time). >"Their" absence here is a considerable mystery, which has >occasioned much debate in recent years, but the "extreme cost" of >interstellar travel just does not suffice as an explanation. Maybe "they" are a long way away? >"Antimatter rockets will take us to the stars. *This is no longer >science fiction*." -- Forward Thank God it's not science fiction -- that way it stands a chance of being true. :-} Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ucbvax!weyl!gsmith ------------------------------ From: dcc1!bingaman@caip.rutgers.edu (George C. Bingaman) Subject: The death of Frank Herbert Date: 13 Feb 86 20:34:14 GMT USA TODAY - 2/13/86 "Frank Herbert, 65, died Tuesday afternoon of a blood clot in his lung at the University of Wisconsin Hospital and Clinics in Madison, where he had been undergoing treatment for pancreatic and liver cancer." ... "Herbert is survived by three children, Brian, Bruce and Penny, and his third wife, Theresa. He had been married to the former Beverly Ann Stuart for 39 years, until her death [of cancer] in 1984." [insert] mine. ... "In accordance with his wishes, Herbert will be cremated and the family will hold private services. They suggest any donations be sent to the Frank Herbert Cancer Research Fund at the Wisconsin Foundation of the University of Wisconson Center, Madison., Wis. 53792 Herbert's last works are a screenplay based on his 'The Santaroga Barrier' (1968) and a science fiction novel, 'Man of Two Worlds', with eldest son, Brian, which will be published in May by Putnam." Wouldn't it be nice if all of his fans, or at least all of the regular readers of sf-lovers, sent ten dollars to the research fund? The article said he has 15 million readers. Maybe $150 million would make a dent in cancer research. George C. Bingaman DeKalb Community College 2101 Womack Rd. Dunwoody (Atlanta) Ga. 30338 {akgua,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ulysses}!gatech!dcc1!bingaman ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 86 18:01 EST From: Andrew Sigel Subject: L. Ron Hubbard's dekalogy The dekalogy has apparently been finished for some time, and will be released over the next two years. The following is taken from an ad in the January 31 issue of Publishers Weekly: "... after its release on March 13th, BLACK GENESIS [Vol. II] will be followed by a new volume of MISSION EARTH every other month throughout 1986 and into 1987. All 10 volumes of the dekalogy -- over 1,000,000 words of spell-binding adventure -- are now complete and coming your way." The ad goes on to claim that in three years, BATTLEFIELD EARTH and THE INVADERS PLAN have grossed four million. Shown, spine only, are the remaining volumes of the dekalogy. For those who are curious, the titles are: THE ENEMY WITHIN, AN ALIEN AF9 FAIR, FORTUNE OF FEAR, DEATH QUEST, VOYAGE OF VENGEANCE, DISASTER, VILLANY VICTORIOUS, and THE DOOMED PLANET. I would be unsurprised if the announcement of Hubbard's death, and the inevitable court battle over the will, greatly increase sales of the dekalogy. It is a well known phenomenon that next to a successful new work, nothing will increase sales on ones entire oeuvre more than the creator's demise. In fact, this phenomenon has been used to good effect in many mysteries, where the artist/author is either killed or fakes death. Timing can be very effective in this sort of thing. I agree with Will Martin. The next several months are going to be very interesting. Andrew Sigel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Feb 86 10:32 PST From: Dave Platt Subject: Re: George R.R. Martin Yes. I saw mention of a collection of all existing Haviland Tuf stories in the latest issue of Locus. They are in the process of being released as a paperback collection, and the collection does include the discovery of the Seedship Ark. Check Locus for details; the review includes the dates-of-original-publication of all of the stories. ------------------------------ From: cc-30@cory.BERKELEY.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse) Subject: Anybody got any information on non-sf McCaffrey? Date: 9 Feb 86 00:36:52 GMT >From: Randall B. Neff >From Publishers Weekly, Jan 31, 1986 page 366 (about Nerilka's Story) >In form, this is basically a Victorian gothic in which a governess >tames and marries the gruff master of the house. As such, >McCaffrey's legions of fans should enjoy it, but it is a weak entry >in the Pern saga. I don't mind. I fully enjoyed McCaffrey's "gothic" romance, (Merlin something) about a girl in WWII falling in love with her guardian/major. Neat stuff. I know it's rather unlikely, but do any of you out there know of any other non-sf/romance books by Anne McCaffrey (other than that new one with the pink cover). [sorry this rambles so, but I've been sick] If you do, could you please mail, not post, as I'm sure most people on this net really wouldn't want to know about it. Thanks in advance. Kathy Li ARPA: cc-30@cory.berkeley.edu UUCP: ucbvax!cory!cc-30 ------------------------------ Date: Tue 11 Feb 86 11:48:16-EST From: Laurence Brothers Subject: Santiago, by Resnick Santiago, a new release from Mike Resnick, is definitely the best of his that I've read. It deals with the quest for the infamous Santiago, a criminal whose exploits have so shocked the galaxy that (I think), there are 11 bureaus of the galactic govrnment (the DEMOCRACY, which says it all) whose sole duty is tracking him down. Mainly the novel focuses on the efforts of Sebastian Nightingale Cain, a bounty hunter, to cash in on the cr 20M reward -- as the old line goes "Dead or Alive -- preferably dead!" This is probably the best of Resnick's attempts to render the 19th century American frontier milieu in an alien environment. Unfortunately, reading about characters who ALL have nicknames (or real names) like ManMountain Bates, Halfpenny Terwilliger, Songbird Cain, et al. can grow kind of wearisome, but this is only a minor annoyance. Actually, it probably says something that the only major character who doesn't use a name like that is Santiago himself and he --- well you'll have to read about it. If you liked any of Resnick's previous books, then you'll certainly like this one; if you didn't (like me), then you'll still probably find Santiago very worthwhile. Laurence ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11-FEB-1986 13:03 EST From: Ronald A. Jarrell Subject: RE: Cordwainer Smith book... The one with the "This is the middle, this is the beginning, etc." in it is Norstrillia. As I recall it was the only full length novel Smith wrote, and was supposed to be the centerpiece for his stories of the Instrumentality of Man. I picked it up cold one day and read it. Enjoyed it enough that I went out and got the rest of his stories. Ron ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccrrick@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick) Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun (Spoilers possible) Date: 9 Feb 86 03:40:11 GMT I have read _The_Shadow_of_the_Torturer_, (first volume of _The_Book_of_the_New_Sun), but in almost a year have yet to continue with the rest of the book. In general, I found the writing murky and the tale rather disconnected. I found that I learned very little of the political system, social classes, economic systems or even recent history. This failure of Wolfe's to adequately inform varies directly with my failure to be interested in his tale. This seems to me to be particularly true in a story like this where so many of the characters seem to be insane and therefore take actions that appear illogical: Master Palaemon gives an extremely valuable sword to a man who never seemed to interest him and who ought to be sentenced to death. Agia and Agilus are insanely greedy, consider the bizarre excuses Agilus gives in the prison cell when he argues to be spared. The boatman is in a crazed state and Dorcas suffers from amnesia. The rationality of Dr. Talos, Baldanders and the stuttering man seem questionable to me as well. I understand that Wolfe wrote this book while employed at another job and typically wrote during the early morning hours, shortly after having awakened. This probably accounts for the dreamlike nature of the work, which many people seem to admire highly. I am less than enthusiastic about it; on the other hand, only reading the first book is probably tantamount to turning off Beethoven's 5th symphony in the middle of the second movement in terms of being fair to the author's complete message... But on the first hand, the author has the responsibility to make the first story accessible enough that the others will be read... In time, I may re-read the first book and give it another chance... One thing that intrigues me is the theory that Severian has lived this life before and that all the events depicted have been experienced by Severian not once, but twice. Anyone have any thoughts or theories on this? What made someone think of this rather unique thought in the first place? What evidence is there for it? rick heli {ucbvax,lll-crg}!ucdavis!ccrrick ------------------------------ Date: Sat 8 Feb 86 21:57:10-EST From: "Jim McGrath" Subject: Cobra Strike Cobra Strike, by Timothy Zahn, Baen, 1986, 344pp. Someone already reviewed this book, so I will skip the plot details. I generally like Zahn's work, but I thought this book was padded. Cobra worked because Zahn was exploring many different facets of his characters and their future society. Cobra Strikes has simply too little speculative material to justify its length. Indeed, this padding is what ultimately "justifies" a relatively high price of $3.50. I would rather have a tighter work at $2.95. Nevertheless, in this imperfect world I would recommend that you read it if you like Zahn. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed 5 Feb 86 11:05:22-PST From: Randall B. Neff Subject: New books Here are the Spring Hardcover / Trade announcements for Spring and Summer Tor: In Alien Flesh Gregory Benford short stories Speaker for the Dead Orson Scott Card Sequel to Ender's Game Doubleday : A Darkness at Sethanon Raymond E. Feist end of trilogy Quadriphobia Alan Ryan March The Hugo Winners vol 5 Isaac Asimov ed April The Bird of Time George Alec Effinger April Revenge of the Senior Citizens Plus Kit Reed April Trek to Kraggen-Cor Dennis L. McKiernan May The Brega Path " June The Tail of the Arabian Knight Geoffrey Marsh July Howard Who? Howard Waldrop July The Best Sf of I.A. Isaac Asimov August The Best Mysteries of I.A. " August Star Country Michael Cassutt August Arbor House: Burning Chrome William Gibson April Dorothea Dreams Suzy McKee Charnas April Only Apparently Real: World of PDK Paul Williams May The Wandering Fire: II Guy Bavriel Kay June Kiteworld Keith Roberts July Ballantine The Yellow Knight of Oz Ruth Plumly Thompson July Pirates in Oz The Purple Prince of Oz Bantam Heart of the Comet Gregory Benford and David Brin (it is out!) Del Rey Nerilka's Story Anne McCaffrey March Magic Kindom for Sale -- Sold! Terry Brooks April The Songs of Distant Earth Arthur C. Clarke May Highway of Eternity Clifford D. Simak June Putnam Strangers Dean R. Knoontz April Man of Two Worlds Frank Herbert and Brian Herbert May The Touch F. Paul Wilson May From Publishers Weekly, Jan 31, 1986 issue ------------------------------ Subject: Other Change of Hobbit Date: Mon, 10 Feb 86 11:10:33 -0500 From: lkramer@dewey.udel.EDU This message is forwarded from a friend of mine who reads sf-lovers regularly, but doesn't have a net address. Any replies can be forwarded to me or posted on the net: In a recent digest entry a list of books from a store called "The Other Change of Hobbit" appeared. I looked for one of the titles listed, but have been unable to find it or order it. Could someone please give me information (address) as to how to write to this store so I can order a book? Thanks in advance, Jim.9000 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Feb 86 8:15:28 EST From: Earl Weaver (VLD/ASB) Subject: Dr. Who Dr. Who has been playing in the Baltimore (MD) area and has gotten to the point that he has a new sidekick Romano. Unfortunately, I must now make a decision as to whether to forego watching it in favor of a higher priority activity. Anybody who knows the Dr. Who series can help me out; will Romano ever dress the way Leela did? ------------------------------ Subject: re: sf dilly Date: 05 Feb 86 11:10:21 PST (Wed) From: Dave Godwin Is anybody besides me watching the BBC Tripods series on PBS? What do you think of, both as a television effort and as a comparison to the books from which it springs? Dave Godwin University of California, Irvine ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 86 14:33:00 CDT From: "MARTIN J. MOORE" Subject: Worldcon mailing problems Has anybody gotten PR 3 yet? We received duplicate copies of PR 2 about the time I expected PR 3, and the con folks have not answered my letters. Is anybody having the same problem, or know anything about the situation? Reply directly to: mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Feb 86 1046-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #33 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 19 Feb 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 33 Today's Topics: Books - Clarke & Dickson & Hubbard (2 msgs) & McCaffrey & Saberhagen & Smith & Wolfe (2 msgs), Television - Dr. Who ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: lsuc!msb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Brader) Subject: Clarke's Laws ("Any sufficiently advanced technology...") Date: 9 Feb 86 07:11:09 GMT >>> "A sufficiently high level of technology is indistinguishable >>> from magic." >>> Heinlein >> Clarke! > Now don't start *that* again! > Yes, both Heinlein and Clarke are credited with the above statement > The verdict? Neither admits to being the originator. Curious. I've read a lot of both authors, and this is the first I've seen of anyone but Clarke connected with the aphorism. But I have no involvement with organized fandom; perhaps the last quoted poster does. I'd be interested to see a reference for Heinlein's claim to this. Here is Clarke's claim, and note that it is a claim of authorship; did he later retract it? For good measure I throw in Clarke's other laws, as they originally appeared. Reference: "Profiles of the Future", 1972 revised edition. Page numbers are for the Popular Library paperback of 1977. Page 32: Too great a burden of knowledge can clog the wheels of imagination; I have tried to embody this fact of observation in Clarke's Law, which may be formulated as follows: When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong. Perhaps the adjective "elderly" requires definition. In physics, mathematics, and astronauts it means over thirty; in the other disciplines, senile decay is sometimes postponed to the forties. There are, of course, glorious exceptions; but as every researcher just out of college knows, scientists of over fifty are good for nothing but board meetings, and should at all costs be kept out of the laboratory! Page 39: The [above] list is deliberately provocative: it includes sheer fantasy as well as serious scientific speculation. But the only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible[1]. In the chapters that follows, this is exactly what I hope to do... Footnote: [1] The French edition of this book rather surprised me by calling this Clarke's Second Law. (See page 25 [sic] for the First, which is now rather well-known.) I accept the label, and have also formulated a Third: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." As three laws were good enough for Newton, I have modestly decided to stop there. Mark Brader ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 86 07:50:22 PST (Tuesday) Subject: Re: Dickson's The Final Encyclopedia From: Kurt Piersol Some added pages in the hardbound edition of The Final Encyclopedia confirm your guesses. Childe is indeed to be the culminating novel. I found the Final Encyclopedia an excellent novel in its own right, since it finally succeeded in getting me interested in the Friendlies, who I had earlier considered rather boring. At least it is now clear how they maintained a viable splinter culture when almost everyone else but the Dorsai and Exotic cultures had disappeared. Kurt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 86 09:39 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: Death of Hubbard Well, look at Tolkien. He's had at least four books published since his death. Yes, he has a devouted grandson, but Hubbard has devouted followers in the faith. If there were even a few hand-written notes, they would probably publish them. Also, look at the Conan series of Howard. Many stories were written by Carter, et al. based on partial stories, fragments, plotlines, etc. Brett Slocum (Slocum@HI-MULITCS) ------------------------------ From: dsi1!jeff@caip.rutgers.edu (Jeff Armstrong) Subject: Re: Death of Hubbard Date: 14 Feb 86 12:24:48 GMT >From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA >> So much for the decalogy. >Well, look at Tolkien. He's had at least four books published >since his death. Yes, he has a devouted grandson, but Hubbard has >devouted followers in the faith. If there were even a few >hand-written notes, they would probably publish them. Also, look >at the Conan series of Howard. Many stories were written by >Carter, et al. based on partial stories, fragments, plotlines, >etc. As I understand Volume 2 in the dekalogy is due for release on March 13. That would have been Hubbard's 75th birtday. The remaining volumes are supposedly written and will be released according to some predetermined timetable. ------------------------------ From: jablow@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Eric Robert Jablow) Subject: Re: post-WHITE DRAGON era Date: 14 Feb 86 04:14:01 GMT Perhaps I should have sent this to net.rumor, but here goes: Anne McCaffery is one of the most prominent authors of "commercial science fantasy". You know what I'm talking about. In sf there are authors like "Lee Correy" and James Hogan who write industrial- grade science fiction, but Anne McCaffery is much more prominent in her chosen field. Look at all the teenagers running around at conventions wearing dragon dolls and thinking ONLY about dragons. (That's what I don't like--the obsession.) But she could make lots, lots, lots more money if she just takes my suggestion here. Suggestion for a novel: THE SWORD OF SHARRA by Marion Zimmer Bradley and Anne McCaffery In the (chronologically) last Darkover novel, THE WORLD WRECKERS, the telepaths of Darkover made a telepathic call to all the other telepaths of the galaxy. Well, just imagine that Pern is in the same galaxy and same future history. The telepaths of Pern get the call. Who interpets it? What is the most powerfully telepathic race on Pern? And who is its most powerful telepath? Of course, the Dragons, and Ruth in particular. So, Ruth starts getting irrestible visions of a planet orbiting a red sun (Hee. Hee!). He tells Jaxom and Sharra (Remember that name?), and after much dithering they decide to go. They get there, look around in shock, have some adventures, and barely escape with their lives. They go back, consult with Ruatha and the Harpers, and Pern and Darkover start dealing in earnest. Watch out as Pernians start getting very confused by Darkover sexual mores. Darkoverans start getting very confused by Pern sexual mores. Someone decides to go Dragon-hunting, and comes to a very bad end. You can add whatever speculations you wish. It will sell big bucks, divided two ways of course, but it will be a greatly profitable book all the same. I expect to see it soon. Respectfully, Eric Robert Jablow MSRI ucbvax!brahms!jablow ------------------------------ From: bucsb!odin@caip.rutgers.edu (Ben Page) Subject: Saberhagen's Frankenstein Date: 14 Feb 86 21:22:10 GMT This book, although (not suprisingly) well written, does not have the same je ne sais quoi as his Dracula books. It is, in short, just another story. In it, Dr. Frankenstein is portrayed as a dupe of both fate, and his immoral compatriots, while his "creation" turns out to be a creature from another planet sent to observe Earth and caught with his pants down by a bolt of electricity. It is difficult for me to believe that Dr. Frankenstein could be conducting the advanced (for the time) experiments that he was, and still be as naive as he had to be to actually believe that the experiments he was conducting could actually produce life. I definitely do not recommend this book, although I would highly recommend his Dracula series for those who have not read it. Ben Page. csckgqc@bostonu.BITNET odin%bu-cs@csnet-relay ------------------------------ From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: RE: Cordwainer Smith book... Date: 15 Feb 86 03:52:48 GMT > The one with the "This is the middle, this is the beginning, etc." > in it is Norstrillia. Nope, Norstrilia starts out with a two page summary of the entire story, followed by the words "The details follow". I had thought at first that the referenced story MUST be a Cordwainer Smith story, but after reviewing ALL of the existing CS stories, I find I was mistaken. The closest thing I've been able to come up with is Harlan Ellison's "Repent, Harlequin, said the Tik Tok Man", which starts very like the original quote. I STILL recommend Cordwainer Smith to anyone who hasn't read his stories... Mike Farren uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667 ------------------------------ From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe flames and reviews Date: 14 Feb 86 11:11:09 GMT benn@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (T Cox) writes [in reply to my reply to a reply to a query about the Book of the New Sun, in which I criticized the one who replied for insulting those who didn't consider it the best SF novel ever written (best I can do; if you missed the original posting just give up...)]: >Flame on. >You total bozos. I really cannot understand such gross stupidity >in people who would otherwise strike me as bright: readers of >SF/Fantasy stories. You amaze me. > You can swallow spiders on Mars. You can read the future >history of the Earth a million hears hence without blinking. You >can handle the twisting and writhing of every physical law of the >universe. And then, then you fall flat on your collective faces >when someone uses strong rhetoric. This is too much. We are talking about two different things here. One is suspension of disbelief when reading fiction. All of us clearly accept this or we would not read SF. But this has nothing to do with the case we are discussing. The original poster noted that he had not particularly enjoyed the first two volumes of BONS, and asked what other people saw in it. The reply said nothing about what was good about the book, just that everyone should think that it is the best SF ever written and insulted those who didn't (clearly including the original poster, since he had already stated that he didn't particularly appreciate the book). >The original poster, whose article has long since vanished from my >site, said things like "there never has been, nor ever could be, an >author as gifted as this one." The actual quote which you are paraphrasing was: krantz@csd2.UUCP (Michaelntz) writes: "Gene Wolfe is, quite simply, the best novelist ever to write in the science fiction genre. His prose, his ideas - all of it. The best. Hands down." >Do you think he was serious? Of course not! Great horned toads of >Jupiter! This is called, now read slowly here, exaggeration. >Everyone catch that? He was overstating the case for dramatic >effect. Something any author can do through the mouth of a >character without surprising any one of you. But let someone make >a sweeping generalization on the net, and everyone jumps down his >throat. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Your paraphrase is clearly an exaggeration. The original quote is not. It and the rest of the reply can all be taken as meaning exactly what they say: heaped praise on BONS and insults for those who do not appreciate it. Frankly, I consider it the responsibility of the poster to tell us if he doesn't mean what he says, or better yet not to post at all. If for some reason you are not willing to say what you mean, I think most people would prefer that you just keep your mouth shut instead of making a fool of yourself. >Now we're going to have a little test here. I am going to write >something that will be an exaggeration. I will do it for dramatic >effect. Ready? Take your time. Don't get excited; it's only >exaggeration. It's just a rhetorical device. Now brace >yourselves. > Not one of you is worthy of posting to sf-lovers, you > narrow-minded, gullible GITS! How literal-minded and > dense can a human being be?!? You are not worthy of > even READING this newsgroup! I banish you all forth- > with to the purgatory of net.philosophy, net.religion. > christian, net.women, and net.cooks! Begone! >There, that wasn't so bad, was it? A little warm, but hardly >threatening to the discriminating reader. The OED defines rhetoric as "The art of using language to persuade or influence others...." The above does neither; it only insults. If you wrote the above in a context in which it could be taken seriously I *would* take it seriously, which means that, as its author, I would cease to take *you* seriously. >Flame off. May the elementals of fire be appeased. >Please, fellow readers, next time someone uses strong language the >way the original poster did, to make an obviously silly sweeping >generalization, remember that there are people in the world who use >that kind of phrasing all the time, in normal conversation. Just >because you don't, that doesn't mean others cannot. And if it gets >under your skin, that is not the other guy's fault. If the >original poster had been a green-tentacled alien from, say, Planet >10, you'd not have reacted that way. Shame on you all. I say what I mean. Each person has the right, and the responsibility, to say whatever he wants. If he chooses to say something other than what he means, is it our responsibility to decide what he "really" meant? And, no matter how the original reply was meant (which I maintain it is not my responsibility to decipher), my objection remains. To reply to a posting which says, "I didn't like X much, but I would like to hear why other people liked it," with statements insulting those who dislike X instead of describing what you like about X (as others have done in this case) is completely unacceptable to me. David desJardins ------------------------------ From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun Date: 14 Feb 86 18:33:27 GMT patcl@hammer.UUCP (Pat Clancy) writes: >>I read Shadow of the Torturer and thought it was horrible. > >I'll second that! This was an outstandingly bad novel. Yet it >seems that every year or so the Wulf-cultists must issue forth onto >the net to demonstrate why there's such a large and uncritical >market for so much bad SF. This "cult" happens to include more than half of the SFWA, the Science Fiction Writers of America, as evidenced by the Nebula selections. I would hardly call the SFWA uncritical, or large for that matter. Perhaps the writers know something you don't? (There, we're even insult for insult.) Tim Maroney, Electronic Village Idiot {sun,ptsfa,ihnp4,well,yomama,frog}!hoptoad!tim ------------------------------ From: cvl!kayuucee@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) Subject: Re: Re: Dr. Who Date: 14 Feb 86 15:26:06 GMT > No, sorry, Romana will never dress the way Leela did (and > neither will anyone else, for that matter). But if you keep > watching, you still have Tegan's leather mini-skirt and Peri's > bikini to look forward to! I'm afraid not. All we get in the Washington D.C/Baltimore area is Tom Baker's Doctor and THAT'S ALL. We are on the third time around with the fourth Doctor since I got interested in watching Doctor Who. It doesn't look like we'll ever see any other except at cons. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Feb 86 0923-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #34 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 24 Feb 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 34 Today's Topics: Books - Herbert & Martin (3 msgs) & Vance & Story Request & Story Idea, Radio - SF Radio Program, Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Criticizing & Quote Source & Harpers Article & Boskon 23 & Religion in SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gt-oscar!gt3191b@caip.rutgers.edu (MCALLISTER) Subject: Re: Frank Herbert's Control of "Dune" Date: 22 Feb 86 03:49:19 GMT >Don't be too sure. I understand F. Herbert retained creative >control of DUNE and look at the abomination that was. This is not entirely true. Rather than expound here on all of Mr. Herbert's feelings on the fiasco that was released as "Dune", I shall refer you to the foreward in Frank Herbert's "EYE" which should be available in any good bookstore near you. DISCLAIMER: I have not read "EYE", I have only read the foreward. Therefore this is NOT a recommendation for the book. McAllister, Daniel Grear Georgia Insitute of Technology, PO Box 33191 Atlanta Georgia, 30332 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gt-oscar!gt3191b ------------------------------ Subject: Seedship Ark stories Date: 19 Feb 86 09:30:47 PST (Wed) From: Dave Godwin Hi all. One of our readers a while back requested that I send a list of the Haviland Tuf stories I'd refered to a while back. Well, they all came out in Analog (three within the last six months), but I can't actually find any of my copies. My Analog library goes back quite a ways; I think my roommate borrowed them, cuz I reread them all a while back and now I can't find them. If somebody with the last few year-end Analog issues could look in the Year Index for stuff by George R.R. Martin, chances are that the titles mentioned are the stories we are looking for. (Not the stuff he wrote with Lisa Tuttle. Those are the Windhaven stories, and are equally good.) Has anybody seen the collection of short stories that is coming out ? Local bookstore hasn't been of any help (so what else is new ??). Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu 20 Feb 86 17:44:39-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: Tuf Voyaging >From: Dave Godwin >Those of us familiar with Analog will remember the stories about >Haviland Tuf, and his EEC Seedship Ark. ( I think it was George >R.R. martin who wrote these ). I can remember five or six of these >stories over the last several years, three of them in recent issues >of Analog. > >My question is this: Has there yet been a story on how Tuf and his >companions ( now all deceased, I believe ) found the derelict Ark >in the first place ? First, the story you requested is to be found in the January and February 1985 issues of Analog magazine, serialized as the Star Plague. Second, a hardcover edition of the collected stories (woven into a loose novel) has been published as Tuf Voyaging. It contains all of the Analog stories and one additional short story. I have always loved the Tuf stories and strongly recommend that people check this book out if they have not already read the stories in Analog. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 21 Feb 1986 08:33:42-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: George Martin's Haviland Tuf series > From: Dave Godwin > If somebody with the last few year-end Analog issues could look in > the Year Index for stuff by George R.R. Martin, chances are that > the titles mentioned are the stories we are looking for. The complete list of Haviland Tuf stories is: "A Beast for Norn" ANDROMEDA ONE (Mar 1976) (British anthology ed. by Peter Weston) [reprinted in] Galaxy (Sep/Oct 1979) "Call Him Moses" Analog (Feb 1978) "Guardians" Analog (Oct 12 1981) "The Plague Star" Analog (Jan, Feb 1985) "Loaves and Fishes" Analog (Oct 1985) "Second Helpings" Analog (Nov 1985) "Manna from Heaven" Analog (Mid-Dec 1985) The Tuf series is just a part of a larger future history, the Manrealm series, which includes the bulk of Martin's fiction, including his most well-known stories, such as "A Song for Lya", "With Morning Comes Mistfall", "The Way of Cross and Dragon", "Sandkings", and DYING OF THE LIGHT. > Has anybody seen the collection of short stories that is > coming out ? Local bookstore hasn't been of any help (so what else > is new ??). Yes, I saw copies for sale at Boskone. It's a hardcover from Baen Books (Simon & Schuster) called TUF VOYAGING. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: cad!grady@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven Grady) Subject: references to other authors Date: 14 Feb 86 19:17:47 GMT I started reading the Demon Princes novels, by Jack Vance, yesterday, and in the second one, _The_Killing_Machine_ Chapter 3 introduction, there is a reference to a work by A. N. der Poulson. Obviously this is a play on Poul Anderson, but I hadn't noticed such references earlier in these books. Has anyone seen other references in these books? Steven PS PLEASE don't say "no I don't know, but there's this book Flying Sorcerors which has all these references" because I think by now we all know about them. ------------------------------ From: styx!mcb@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch) Subject: Yet Another Story Request Date: 18 Feb 86 22:39:10 GMT My account for author/title requests is fully paid up, so I submit the following for the august members of the net. [A few of you might remember seeing it; I first posted it in early 1984, and got NO responses, which is most unusual.] I am looking for the author, title, or a pointer to an SF short story that I believe was published in the early 1960's (plus or minus a few years). The story was darkly humorous, took place in an overcrowded city, and involved a family or married (?) couple trying to make ends meet even though a totalitarian government keeps making work days longer by way of a Department of Time Distribution that can somehow lengthen/shorten periods of time. There are a few other such agencies mentioned in the story. I believe I read the story in either a reprint or original hardcover anthology. It isn't Ellison's "Repent, Harlequin ...", Farmer's "Sliced-Crosswise, Only-on-Tuesday World" [-> Dayworld], nor Ballard's "Billenium" or "Build-up" though it has something in common with each of these. Any clues appreciated! Michael C. Berch ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA UUCP: {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,dual,ihnp4,sun}!idi!styx!mcb ------------------------------ From: proper!carl@caip.rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg) Subject: Re: post-WHITE DRAGON era Date: 21 Feb 86 08:25:22 GMT jablow@brahms.UUCP (Eric Robert Jablow) writes: >Look at all the teenagers running around at conventions wearing >dragon dolls and thinking ONLY about dragons. Oh, come on. I have a nice dragon doll that is very good for boffing people about the head with when they make bad puns. The type is sewn by costuming maniacs (and good friends of mine) who are out of teenagerhood. >Suggestion for a novel: > THE SWORD OF SHARRA > by Marion Zimmer Bradley and Anne McCaffery >In the (chronologically) last Darkover novel, THE WORLD WRECKERS, >the telepaths of Darkover made a telepathic call to all the other >telepaths of the galaxy. Well, just imagine that Pern is in the >same galaxy and same future history. Didn't you read the last story in _Sword of Chaos_? It was titled "A Recipe for Failure", by Millea Kenin, and the dragon Broth and his rider T'Spoon had appeared there... So why imagine??? >The telepaths of Pern get the call. Who interpets it? What is the >most powerfully telepathic race on Pern? And who is its most >powerful telepath? Of course, the Dragons, and Ruth in particular. >So, Ruth starts getting irrestible visions of a planet orbiting a >red sun (Hee. Hee!). And comes out in vacuum, orbiting Liriel. Great. Dragons meet explosive decompression. Try high mountains with a red sun at noon, better to go on... (Hmmm, now do dragons have a homing instinct so they won't come out in vacuum? Canth going the the Red Star would have been pretty high in the atmosphere..) >He tells Jaxom and Sharra (Remember that name?), and after much >dithering they decide to go. They get there, look around in shock, >have some adventures, and barely escape with their lives. They go >back, consult with Ruatha and the Harpers, and Pern and Darkover >start dealing in earnest. Watch out as > Pernians start getting very confused by Darkover sexual >mores. Since when did Darkovans have sexual mores? > Darkoverans start getting very confused by Pern sexual >mores. Since when did the Pernese have sexual mores? >Someone decides to go Dragon-hunting, and comes to a very bad end. They have a fairy-tale on Darkover with some son of Hastur lamenting it, so I guess dragons would be a bit more popular than THAT... But with all them Comyn conservatives.... Actually, seems a bit of a parallel with the oldies thinking queens can't chew firestone and ride in Fall and Keepers must be virgins... >You can add whatever speculations you wish. It will sell big >bucks, divided two ways of course, but it will be a greatly >profitable book all the same. I expect to see it soon. Ack! Phhht! Carl Greenberg ------------------------------ Date: 15 Feb 86 20:54:01 EST From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: HOUR OF THE WOLF Did you know that there is a radio program devoted to SF??? Its called 'Hour of the Wolf' and its on WBAI 99.5FM (NY). The show is hosted by Jim Freund, and is broadcast every Saturday morning from 5:00AM-7:00AM . The program features interviews, readings of short stories, playing of Convention Speeches, and Radio Dramas based on your favourite SF stories. He also plays SF related music, (and also some non-related but equally good music such as Steel Eye Span). For example, the opening theme is from Silent Running. Jim describes the show as devoted to SF, Fantasy, Enchantment, and the Imagination. In the past he has done 'theme' shows such as Phillip K. Dick, and Tolkien. Next week's show will be devoted to the works of the late Frank Herbert. Tune in... you'll like what you hear. ------------------------------ Date: Mon 17 Feb 86 17:57:19-EST From: Doctor I & III & V Subject: Dr. Who request Does anyone out there know the address of ANY American distributor for Bassett's Jelly Babies? Better yet - does anyone have the correspondence address of Bassett's itself in England...? thanx, drew ------------------------------ From: acf4!percus@caip.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus) Subject: Re: Dr. Who request Date: 24 Feb 86 01:30:00 GMT > I forget the address, but there's a place in NY or Long Island (I > forget which) run by Creation. They carry Jelly Babies. Go to > any Dr.Who or Star Trek con run by Creation. Dealers at these > cons usually have them. I don't advise it: they usually charge an arm and a leg. A. G. Percus (ARPA) percus@acf4 (NYU) percus.acf4 (UUCP) ...{allegra!ihnp4!seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus ------------------------------ From: ritcv!sma8465@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Abbott) Subject: Re: "His was the most human" Date: 14 Feb 86 20:42:09 GMT I just have one small question. Why is that all people seem to do on this (and other newsgroups) is to point out faults and criticize things (ie. programs, people, movies, the weather, ad nauseaum). I realize that this is something people like to do, but must it be done to this extent? I for one am tired of hearing how 'unrealistic' Star Trek is. As all of you continue to point out, it is ONLY a television show. You can't expect to much from a 1960's show on a limited budget. So, please stop pointing out how the t-shirts showed up under the actors shirts, or how the orbit around the planet look wrong, or how some number is obviously incorrect. Try to think about the ideals the show represented and continues to represent. Let's try to keep the complaining down just a bit. It would be too much to expect no complaining. After all, what am I doing with this article? Steve Abbott ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 86 10:18 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Techology / magic > A sufficiently high level of technology is indistinguishable from > magic. The quote also appears in the Notebook of Lazarus Long found in the middle of Time Enough for Love by Heinlein along with such greats as "Man is a Generalist, Specialization is for Insects". He probably was borrowing it from Clarke. I don't know. I'm just familiar with Heinlein's reference. Brett Slocum (Slocum\@HI-MULTICS.ARPA) ------------------------------ Subject: Harpers magazine Date: 20 Feb 86 09:25:39 PST (Thu) From: Macintosh Laboratory The Feb. 19 edition of the the LA Times had an article about a bunch of local SF writers (Benford, Brin, Harrison, etc.) who got together after the Uranus fly-by and started a heated discussion about an article in the October edition of Harper's magazine. The essay was called "The Temple of Boredom" (subtitled "Science Fiction, no future") by Luc Sante. The article gets down on SF as a genre for its "hubris", "woozy universalism", and "contrivance", and goes on and on about SF as "the domain of hobbyists and hacks". Since I'm not in the "literary establishment" (:-), I missed this article, but I'm curious as to why there was no mention of it on sf-lovers (maybe I just missed it). I couldn't think of anything that could set off the division of flame-throwers on the net as much as a blatant frontal attack as this. Anyway, I'm going to go look up the article and would like to hear what other people think of it. Greg Finnegan mac@icsc.uci.edu The article mentions the so-called "eastern literary establishment" and its neglect of SF as less-than-literature. I think maybe I'll send a little note to the LA Times editors asking why they are in that class -- the Book Review only reviews an SF novel about every 5 weeks. Oh well... ------------------------------ Date: 21 Feb 1986 11:28:36 PST Subject: Boskone From: Tom Galloway Knowing that at least half a function room of SF-L readers were at Boskone, and knowing that some of you may have left before the gripe session Sunday, here's your chance to let your opinions on Boskone be known to next year's Chairman. Mail any comments, whether positive or negative, to Galloway@isib.arpa, and I'll forward them to next year's Chair. If you really feel committed to changing something about Boskone, feel free to volunteer to work on the con; we're always looking for new people and/or ideas. tyg ------------------------------ Date: Fri 21 Feb 1986 18:15:42 EST From: Subject: BOSKONE XXIII and Shariann Lewitt This query arises from an excellent discussion on SF and Religion which occurred as part of the programming at last weekend's Boskone. The presentation dealt with SF's role in extending our concepts of what constitutes religion, as well as its treatment of traditional belief systems. I felt that this event was a real highlight, and would be interested in hearing the reactions of other SF-LOVERS who might have been fortunate enough to attend. The panel included our very own Leigh Ann Hussey, as well as Gene Wolfe, and another writer named Shariann Lewitt. I was particularly impressed with some of Ms. Lewitt's comments and so would like to read some of her material, but I've never heard of her before. Can anyone out there tell me what she's written and where I might find it? Thanks in advance! Cheers, Karl Heinemann ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Mar 86 0831-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #35 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 5 Mar 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 35 Today's Topics: Books - Eddings & Heinlein & McCaffrey & Wilhelm & Story Request, Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide Recordings, Television - The Prisoner & Star Trek, Miscellaneous - SFL T-shirt & Boskone & Quote Source Request & Worldcon & Corflu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: _Belgariad_ review (slight spoilers) Date: 25 Feb 86 04:00:41 GMT Longer review: Yes this is yet-another-growing-up saga; in many respects it is quite similar to the 5 Lloyd Alexander "Taran" books (aka _Black Cauldron_). It's also a quest novel, and a theological novel, and several other standard fantasy themes rolled up together. Yet it somehow manages to rise above all this. The first three books are immensely enjoyable. Eddings has strikingly vivid characters with lots of complexities, and, although the plot advances somewhat leisurely, it's fun simply to watch the characters do their thing. The cosmology, which is revealed gradually through the book, is familiar and yet somehow new and fresh, and there are interesting and amusing detours through prophets, scriptural interpretation, and the like. The plot moves very deliberately, not really getting on the track until Book 2. By the end of Book 3 it really begins to pull the reader along, to the point where I and all my friends spent many months chewing our nails waiting for the last book. In middle of book 4, however, the plot line forks for a second time. In Book 5 this split persists, and furthermore, it explodes into many plot lines, all of which Eddings tries to carry simultaneously in the middle of a colossal battle; needless to say, it takes a bit of work on the part of the reader to keep everything straight. Finally, we come to the second big conclusion, and everything is resolved-- right? Well, not exactly. During the Climactic Scene, the plot quite suddenly becomes very mechanical and feels a bit contrived; one could argue that the scene indeed demands such a change in style, but nevertheless it takes a lot of the punch out of the scene. So the last book is not so satisfactory as the rest of the story. Another thing that is an occasional problem is a bit too much preachiness. The various races of the region are occasionally used as exemplars of human social problems, with mixed results. Sometimes it falls flat; other times, however, the characatures produced are quite amusing. Another thing that is entertaining are the little stories which serve as introductions to each book. Again, those of the last two are not so good, but the story of the Grolim which begins the third book is a marvelous story and a delightful parody as well. Overall, this series is well worth reading. THe first four books are delightful entertainment, and, while the fifth has some serious troubles, it does not ruin the work as a whole. C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 86 08:26:08 PST (Thursday) Subject: Re: Techology / magic From: Piersol.pasa@Xerox.COM >The quote also appears in the Notebook of Lazarus Long found in the >middle of Time Enough for Love by Heinlein along with such greats >as "Man is a Generalist, Specialization is for Insects". He >probably was borrowing it from Clarke. I don't know. I'm just >familiar with Heinlein's reference. I noticed that many of the 'Notebooks' quotes bear an uncanny resemblance to the wit of Mark Twain, but chalked up all of the similarities to a simple case of Lazarus grabbing them for his own since no one knew better three thousand years hence. (Wow, did I foul up that sentence!) Kurt ------------------------------ Date: Tue 25 Feb 86 22:35:32-PST From: Evan Kirshenbaum Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #34 Cc: proper!carl@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU >(Hmmm, now do dragons have a homing instinct so they won't come out >in vacuum? Probably not, if they have to be trained not to come out inside solid rock (remember the weyrling they came across in the hillside?). I always thought that the logical next step was for them to visit the dawn sisters. These would not be cleaned out, so they would find a photograph which they could use to go between to the world the colonists came from, before they left. Of course, this leads to all the normal time travel paradoxes, which McCaffrey seems to be trying hard to avoid :-) evan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 86 03:14:37 MST From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley) Subject: HUYSMAN'S PETS by Kate Wilhelm I want to say some good things about Kate Wilhelm's latest novel: HUYSMAN'S PETS is enormously fun to read, its characters are engrossing, its plot is entertaining, and it left me with a very warm feeling. So why am I not quite satisfied with it, given all this praise? Stanley Huysman was a Nobel Prize winning geneticist, an eccentric, an egomaniac. Huysman's declining years were spent in apparently futile attempts to increase the intelligence of chimpanzees and to detect telepathy between identical twins, efforts which earned him immense scorn and ridicule in the scientific community. The writer Drew Lancaster is hired by Huysman's widow to write the definitive biography of the man and (of course) discovers that Huysman was not as naive and eccentric as he appeared... Lancaster's investigation brings him back into contact with his ex-wife, Pat Stevens, now a legislative assistant to an important senator in Washington, and the plot of the novel is intricately intertwined with the relation between these two people, who didn't understand why they married and now can't understand why they divorced. The novel isn't quite a thriller, because it prefers to dwell on the human qualities of its protagonists more than the delicate machinery of its thriller-style plot, but the suspense is more than ample to draw the reader to the climax. I enjoyed reading HUYSMAN'S PETS but I'm still left with the feeling that this was not one of Wilhelm's best novels, not up to WHERE LATE THE SWEET BIRDS SANG or WELCOME, CHAOS or A SENSE OF SHADOW. Since my humble opinion is that Wilhelm is one of the very best writers in the SF genre, this means that I probably liked HUYSMAN'S PETS much more than the peak efforts of some other writers; but I felt that the powerful and interesting ideas set out in HUYSMAN'S PETS were not well explored. In WELCOME, CHAOS Wilhelm was not afraid to take an idea to its limit, and made the idea a central feature of the plot and climax. In HUYSMAN'S PETS the plot is almost an intrusion into the story of the two main characters, a story that has much to do with human understanding and misunderstanding and not so much to do with the 'pets' of the title, who are not very human at all. I didn't get the impression that ending of PETS was encouraging a sequel, but if Wilhelm wants to write one she has plenty of material to work with... If you enjoy Wilhelm's work as much as I do, you'll definitely want to buy HUYSMAN'S PETS, but if you aren't familiar with her style, you'll probably be better off starting with another one of her novels. Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Feb 86 14:39:12 EST From: Ron Singleton Subject: Story Request Folks, On a TV game show recently, one girl mentioned a short story, "Indistinguishable From Magic," and the title caught my attention. Can anybody tell me where it was printed? Thanks! Ron Singleton (rsingle@bbn-unix) ------------------------------ From: olsen@ll-xn.ARPA (Jim Olsen) Subject: Wanted: Hitchhiker's Guide Recordings Date: 1 Mar 86 05:23:15 GMT Does anyone know if recordings of the BBC "Hitchhiker's Guide the Galaxy" radio series are available? The only recordings I can find are readings of Douglas Adams' books (nice, but not the same). Jim Olsen (olsen@ll-xn.arpa) ...!{decvax,lll-crg,seismo}!ll-xn!olsen ------------------------------ From: hadron!klr@caip.rutgers.edu (Kurt L. Reisler) Subject: Re: The Prisoner: Fallout! Date: 27 Feb 86 17:46:50 GMT >From: Joel B Levin >_PRISONER_ fans in the Boston area: > >Last Saturday night, channel 7 ran "Once Upon a Time" (Episode >N-1). Thus I expect that this Saturday night (2/22), they will >show "Fallout" (Episode N). > >Without next week's TV Guide, I can't be 100% certain of the >episode or the time. However, the episode seems a reasonable >inference, and barring long movies or specials, it should air at >11:30 pm. I am sending this message now instead of waiting till TV >Guide comes, in hopes of getting it into an early enough digest. For those who care, I have attached a list of the episode titles, in the order they were recently broadcast on MPT, along with the order they were broadcast earlier. I do not know which, if either is the correct order. Any ideas? MPT Earlier Episode Episode Name Episode Number Number 1 Arrival 1 2 Chimes of Big Ben 2 3 A, B, and C 3 4 Free For All 4 5 Schizoid Man 10 6 The General 11 7 Many Happy Returns 5 8 Dance of the Dead 13 9 Do Not Forsake Me, Oh My Darling 9 10 It's Your Funeral 12 11 Checkmate 14 12 Living in Harmony 7 13 A Change of Mind 6 14 Hammer into Anvil 8 15 The Girl Who Was Death 15 16 Once Upon a Time 16 17 Fall Out 17 It is interesting to note that the last 3 episodes are the same in both streams, and that due to their nature "Fall Out" MUST follow "Once Upon a Time". ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccrdave@caip.rutgers.edu (Lord Kahless @ Imperial From: Propoganda) Subject: Re: ST episode (Assignment: Earth) question Date: 3 Mar 86 05:27:58 GMT > The Star Trek episode "Assignment: Earth" has just been shown > here. > > This looked very much as though they were hoping for a spin-off > series for Gary Seven (lots of futuristic gadgets but conveniently > set in 1968). The episode was a pilot for a spinoff that didn't sell. So it goes. {dual,lll-crg,ucbvax}!ucdavis!vega!ccrdave ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 86 22:25:17 est From: ringwld!jmturn%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa Subject: SFL T-shirt As brought up at the Boskone panel on Electronic Fanac (and thanks to all the SF-LOVERs who showed up (we had a full house)), there is a great deal of interest in reprinting the SF-LOVERS T-shirt. I've been in touch with Bob Forward (phud), who has volunteered the use of his son as an artist to resurrect the mechanicals, but suggests I place a call out on the net looking for the originals first. SO: DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE THE ORIGINALS FOR THE SF-LOVERS T-SHIRT ARE? Assuming we can find them, I can arrange to have another printing made. Might I suggest the following arrangement: 1) Everyone who is interested in getting a shirt send mail to me. 2) After I have a rough idea of the count, I price out the shirts. 3) I place a little bit of padding in the budget so that we can print enough to cover future shirt requests. 4) I determine the price of a shirt, based on the number of committed orders divided into the print run cost. 5) I send mail to all interested parties informing them what the cost is, and they US SNAIL me money. 6) I print the shirts, send them out to people who ordered, and hold the remainder against future demand. Now, a perceptive person will have said "Hey, you're gonna eventually have made a profit over the basic cost of the shirts!" (since the cost for a shirt would also include funds to print extra shirts for future orders.) Now, since I have no real interest in making a profit out of this (well... I actually wouldn't mind, but it wouldn't be RIGHT), I propose to donate any revenue over expense to an appropriate charity (such as one of the various shuttle funds.) The justification for this hairy scheme is to A) avoid having yours truly hafta expose any financial liability by fronting money for printing; B) Produce enough shirts to meet not only current but also future demand; and C) Confuse you. Please hold off on any orders until we determine what's going on in regards to the artwork. I'll let you know when the iron is hot to strike, the presses are ready to roll, and the forces of freedom are on the march. James ARPA: ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA UUCP: {ima, linus, decvax}!cca!ringwld!jmturn NOTE: The previous was written immediately after preparation of the author's 1040, and is therefore likely to contain official government double-talk. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 86 09:28 pst From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Boskone Could someone who went to Boskone give some highlights for us left coasters that didn't get to go? That is assuming there was anything to highlight. Jon ------------------------------ From: wildbill@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (William J. Laubenheimer) Subject: Here's the Quote, What's the Title? Date: 26 Feb 86 02:49:33 GMT I am trying to find a source for this quotation, so I can give it a proper attribution. I strongly believe it is from some SF source; Arthur C. Clarke rings a bell, but I haven't found it in any of my books yet. Can anybody help? The situation: two characters in the story are having a discussion (about sabotage?). One of them says to the other that you can design a system which will safeguard against anticipated error conditions [here's the quote] "... but you can't design a system that's proof against deliberate malice." Any information leading to the source of this quotation and/or the dramatis personae involved will be greatly appreciated. Replies via mail, please. Bill Laubenheimer UC-Berkeley Computer Science ucbvax!wildbill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 86 14:46:20 EST From: Nick Simicich Subject: Housing at Worldcon..... Has anyone been successful in getting a room at the Convention rates at the Atlanta Worldcon? I have called both the Atlanta Hilton and Towers and the Mariott Marquis, and both hotels have told me that whereas there is function space booked, there have been no block reservations made, and the only rate they can quote me is the street rate of over $100/night for a single. I can do a little better with the IBM Corporate rate, but this seems a little ridiculous. I would have expected arrangements to have been made by now. Hmmm....is it unreasonable for them to have not made reservations for lots of people in September by now? Or is it normal that they wouldn't make these arrangements until a few months ahead of time? My wife has to sign up for her vacation now, and how long we can stay depends on how much it will cost. ------------------------------ From: im4u!jsq@caip.rutgers.edu (John Quarterman) Subject: Re: Leeper for Hugo? (Corflu?) Date: 2 Mar 86 21:01:22 GMT Somebody's already remarked that there were many sf-lovers at Boskone (I saw them there, too). Recognition of USENET, SF-LOVERS, OtherRealms, and other electronic fannish media seems to be on many minds. This makes me wonder: did any of you go to Corflu? Since it was unfortunately the same weekend as Boskone, it looks like we've got a dichotomy not only in the publishing media people use but also in the cons they go to. John Quarterman UUCP: {gatech,harvard,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq ARPA Internet and CSNET: jsq@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU, jsq@sally.UTEXAS.EDU ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Mar 86 0903-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #36 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 7 Mar 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 36 Today's Topics: Books - Wolfe (2 msgs) & Book Requests, Films - Star Trek IV & Jittlov, Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide Recordings (2 msgs), Television - Star Trek & Dr. Who (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pete@stc.co.uk Subject: `Funny Words' in TBOTNS Date: 4 Mar 86 11:44:38 GMT >> I have tried (on a subsequent reading) checking the >> 'funny words' in a dictionary. This is a bad idea, because most >> of the time the words are used as much for their sound and >> feeling as for their literal meaning. Nevertheless, those words >> that I found (in Chambers' 20th Century) _were_ correctly used >> _and_ not flogged to death by repetition like Donaldson. > >I think I know the words you are talking about. Since you have >researched them and paid special attention to them, I would *love* >it if you posted a brief list, along with what you have found out >about them. > >Darin Adler >{gatech,harvard,seismo}!ut-sally!ut-dillo!darin Ok, here are a few. I include words that were strange to me and that I could find in Chambers 20th Century dictionary. The page nos. are those in the British Arrow paperback edition. As this does not appear to have been reset from the American edition I expect that the page nos. will either be identical to or have a constant offset from US copies. They are all from `The Shadow of the Torturer'. Page no Word Meaning ======= ==== ======= 12 stele upright stone slab or tablet 13 dhole Indian wild dog 21 saros Babylonian cycle of 3600 years 23 cacogen member of a [bad,deteriorated] race 27 khan inn, caravanserai 33 ophicleide keyed wind-instrument 36 eidolon image 39 fuligin(ous) sooty, dusky 43 glyptodon S. American post-Tertiary fossil (or not) 49 pinakothek picture-gallery 50 armiger one entitled to bear a coat-of-arms 60 echidna genus of Australian monotreme 64 megatherian extinct (or not) S. American ground sloth 67 pantocreator ruler of the universe 67 hypostases substances of the 3 divisions of the Trinity 84 palfrenier (a) groom 91 paphian (a) whore 100 kafila camel train, caravan 125 uhlan light cavalryman 130 sabretache cavalry officer's flat bag or satchel 132 peltast lightly-armed soldier bearing a pelta (light buckler) Here I pause, having accompanied Severian from the waters of Gyoll to the office of the lochage. If you wish to go no further, I will not blame you. It is a long (but worthwhile ) road. Peter Kendell ...!mcvax!ukc!stc!pete ------------------------------ From: starfire!brust@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust) Subject: Re: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun Date: 27 Feb 86 20:56:53 GMT Okay, I'm finally moved to take up this gauntlet. Whatever else has happened, the original query ("What d'you guys see in this, anyway?") was quite reasonable and deserves to be answered. It is sad that I can't answer it. I will, however, describe my experience with the books. Okay. I picked up SHADOW OF THE TORTURER and read about a third of it, discovered that it hadn't grabbed me, and stopped reading it. For the next year, I kept hearing from friends I respected how much they were enjoying the books. In particular, I was hearing from those who enjoyed the sounds of words, that is, the work of those who are aware of the beauty of the language. Well, okay, I like that stuff, too. That's why I'm a Zelazny nut, and why I like Orson Scott Card, Jane Yolen, Patricia McKillip, etc. etc. So I decided to give the books another try, this time forcing myself to read slowly and carefully. It worked for me, and I am now very glad that I did. For those who enjoy the sound of English well wrought, these books will tickle that. For those who enjoy a good story, it really is here, it just takes a while to realize it. The book is screamingly funny, without ever falling out of its conceit (including a multi-page comparison of the art of torturing to the art of writing; I almost hurt myself laughing.) The book had me close to tears at times, yet was never a tragedy. The part of me that likes to play with ideas just as ideas was tickled all the way through, but never quite in ways I expected. On my next few readings, when I start looking for "What is really going on here; what is the author saying?" there is enough meat that I don't go away hungry. Okay? This certainly won't convince anyone who didn't like it that he ought to, but maybe this will help whoever asked the initial question to understand why some of us enjoy the books. skzb ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_adsk@caip.rutgers.edu (David S Kerven) Subject: Forthcoming Books Info Wanted Date: 5 Mar 86 20:41:52 GMT I was wondering if anyone has any idea when the following books will be coming out: A DARKNESS AT SETHANON by Robert E. Feist QUEST FOR ST. CAMBER by Katherine Kurtz Roger Zelzany's next after TRUMPS OF DOOM Sheri S. Tepper's next after DERVISH DAUGHTER I would appreciate any information on when these books will be in print. Thanks. David S. Kerven ARPANET:ins_adsk%jhunix.BITNET@wiscvm.ARPA BITNET :ins_adsk@jhunix G47I6929@jhuvm CSNET :ins_adsk@jhunix.CSNET USENET :!seismo!umcp-cs!jhunix!ins_adsk !allegra!hopkins!jhunix!ins_adsk ------------------------------ From: crash!victoro@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu Date: Fri, 28 Feb 86 02:31:01 PST Subject: STAR TREK RUMORS - SPOILER WARNING!! WARNING - THE FOLLOWING CONTAINS DETAILS OF AN UPCOMMING MOVIE The following may be rumor, it may be true. It certinly was not known before a few days ago by yours truly. For those interested in the latest bit of gossip, we present the following. WARNING - The Following Concerns: STAR TREK IV: The Voyage Home Director: Leonard Nimoy Producer: Harve Bennett Executive Producer: Ralph Winter Casting: Amanda Mackey ROLE ARTIST ROLE ARTIST Captain Kirk William Shatner Controller #1 Thaddeus Golas Spock Leonard Nimoy Controller #2 Martin Pistone Bones DeForest Kelly 1st Garbageman Phil Rubenstein Scotty James Doohan 2nd Garbageman John Miranda Uhura Nichelle Nichols Antique Store Joe Knowland Chekov Walter Koenig Owner Sulu George Takei Bob Briggs Scott Devenney Saratagoa Capt Madge Sinclair Joe Richard Harder " Science Off Mike Brislane Nichols Alex Henteloff " Helmsman Nick Ramus StarFleet Comm Michael Snyder Cmdr Chappell Majel Barrett Pilot Tony Edwards Sarek Mark Lenard SF Display Off Michael Berryman Fed Council Robert Ellenstien Naval Intelleg Jeff Lester Cmdr Rand Grace Lee Whitney Civilian - Ship Thom Rachford Klingon Ambas John Schuck Eldery Patient Eve Smith Lt. Saavik Robin Curtis 1st Intern Tom Mustin Amanda Jane Wyatt 2nd Intern Greg Karas Adm Cartwright Brock Peters 1st Shore Cop Joe Lando Gillian Catherine Hicks Young Doctor Raymond Singer Computer Voice Voice Over Doctor #1 David Ellenstien Aide Extra Allen Com Off Jane Wieldlin North Dakota Veejay Amritraj Boy in Tour Ryan Robertson Starship Captain CDO Newell Tarrant Filming started just a few days ago, on Feburary 24th. Expected completion date is May 12th, 1986. One can only guess, at this point, on the complete story idea. But based on discussion and other items discovered the story looks as follows: WARNING - STORY RUMORS FOLLOW With the cast selected and some set descriptions it appears as though the fabled crew of the Enterprise arrive on earth after some negotiations on the Planet Vulcan and arrive on Earth, possibly still in the Klingon Bird-of-Prey. In fact, that looks very likely. The Earth they arrive at is, Now. Not listed in the above cast call is a number of current age characters including, the ever popular, FBI agent. This is beginning to look, very much like a remake of the Gary Seven episode. Other tidbits of information disclose assistance in the Special Effects department by Industrial Light and Magic. Some additional footage has been shot here in San Diego using the USS Ranger on North Island. In addition some location work was done at Will Rodgers State Park, including the initial landing. Some joggers are included as atmosphere. Well that about raps up what can be said now. Much of what I know is old by now. But this little scrap of information should feed the rumor mills for some time, as we discuss the possible future of Paramont film production #31797. The following is a standard disclamer regarding the possible validity of the above observations. As far as I know, the above information is current, but as we all know secrecy always involves confusing twists of hints, and things change just to preserve the integrity of the story. The above is written to whet the appitites of fans and not to destroy any dreams of possible outcomes. ------------------------------ From: m128a3aw@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse) Subject: Full length feature of Wizard of Speed and Time Date: 5 Mar 86 22:13:49 GMT Last week Kathy Li posted an article asking about Jittlov's project on turning the classic short "The Wizard of Speed" into a full length feature. Well, yes he is still working on the movie. He mentioned that he originally wanted to make a two hour $10M feature but that the major studios wouldn't back him. So, he's settled to make a 93 minute 35mm dolby film. Most of it has been shot and it should be out this fall, if he can find $250K so he can do music, more effects, and dolby mixing. He also mentioned that the movie will not be like the short. The basic story (which is all he would tell me) is the adventures of a man who can move real fast. He made the short to show that you could realistically have the effect that this guy can move real fast. We finally talked about how Pyramid Films (the former distributors of the short) were screwing him over by selling 10 copies for the price of 9 and not paying him for the 10th copy. He now handles his own distribution and sells prints of the short for $110 a copy (he doesn't have any prints right now though). By the way, the next time you see "Back to the Future", notice that "Wizard" is written in graffiti on the steps of the school. Sean Rouse ARPA: cc-30@cory.berkeley.edu UUCP: ucbvax!cory!cc-30 ------------------------------ From: trwrba!pro@caip.rutgers.edu (Peter R. Olpe) Subject: Hitchhikers Date: 4 Mar 86 01:40:58 GMT >Does anyone know if recordings of the BBC "Hitchhiker's Guide the >Galaxy" radio series are available? The only recordings I can find >are readings of Douglas Adams' books (nice, but not the same). >Jim Olsen (olsen@ll-xn.arpa) ...!{decvax,lll-crg,seismo}!ll-xn!olsen I have the first two books (Hitchhikers and Restaurant) on cassette. I know that the records exists (that's where I got my tapes), but they are hard to find. If anyone would like a copy of my tapes, just let me know. Does anyone know if they ever recorded 'Life, the Universe, and Everything'? I'd be very interested in obtaining a copy. My tapes just kind-of end in the middle of the story. Pete Olpe UUCP Path: ...decwrl!decvax!trwrb!trwrba!pro ------------------------------ From: phri!fritz@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Fritzinger) Subject: Re: Wanted: Hitchhiker's Guide Recordings Date: 5 Mar 86 12:56:57 GMT I have seen recordings of both The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy, and to The Restaurant at the End of the Universe for sale at Tower Records in NYC. Indeed, I managed to buy copies of both of them there. Dave Fritzinger, Public Health Research Institute, NY,NY {allegra!phri!fritz} ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!thornton@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC468) Subject: Re: ST episode (Assignment: Earth) question Date: 3 Mar 86 11:21:39 GMT drm@stc.UUCP (David Monksfield) writes: >The Star Trek episode "Assignment: Earth" has just been shown here. >This looked very much as though they were hoping for a spin-off >series for Gary Seven (lots of futuristic gadgets but conveniently >set in 1968). Can anyone out there confirm or deny this and, if >it's true, was such a spin-off series ever started ? D. R. >Monksfield YES! This episode also doubled as a pilot for a proposed series but 'no network nibbled'. The source for this is STARLOG #1 many moons ago. A series developed from this could have been...interesting. The episode itself mainly concerned itself with launching this series, lulling most of the people watching it (5-6 in my room) into thinking: 'WHERE HAS STAR TREK GONE? '. When two familiars did finally turn up : 'AHH..STAR TREK! I REMEMBER THAT...'. A few minor points: Was the girl's IQ and shoesize really comparable? Did ISIS really look vulcan? Was Sevens' plot device a 'sonic screwdriver' rip off? Was this episode really boring? (.ah.um.yes!!.) Andy T. ------------------------------ Date: 3 mar 86 00:58:19 est From: pearl@blue.rutgers.edu Subject: doctor who: peri replaced!! Cc: baum@green.rutgers.edu, jarocha-ernst@blue.rutgers.edu, Cc: klouda@blue.rutgers.edu, msims@red.rutgers.edu, Cc: personals@blue.rutgers.edu The following article appeared in the 2/28 issue of the "Comics Buyers Guide": British actress Bonnie Langford has been announced as the new companion for Doctor Who star Colin Baker. Langford, 21, is a former child star who has endeared herself to "family" audiences with "resolutely" wholesome" roles bearing no hint of controversy. Since the last season of doctor who was accused by certain factions of being too violent and sexually exploitive -- hence the hiatus for "re-evaluation of series' potential" -- Langford's appointment can be regarded as a carefully calculated decision by BBC management and a clear indication of the new direction for the series. Nicola Bryant, who played the doctor's assistant Peri Brown in the most recent and controversial season, has been dropped from the show. The change in the Doctor's assistant will occur in the eighth episode. Well, it looks like Michael Grade (BBC programming director) has managed to screw around with the show. To my knowledge, this is the first time that a companion (or Doctor for that matter) was "dropped" from the show. Previously, the actor/actress left the series when they felt they have stayed there too long. Tomorrow I will post the address of Michael Grade@BBC where I hope every Whovian will write and complain. Nicola Bryant has been with the show since Peter Davidson, and I consider her to have made the show something special. Steve ------------------------------ From: acf4!percus@caip.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus) Subject: Re: DOCTOR WHO: PERI REPLACED!! Date: 5 Mar 86 23:51:00 GMT Personally, I think this is the first good thing that Michael Grade has done, but we'll leave the opinions in net.tv.drwho... Meanwhile, suffice it to say that companions definitely have been written out of the show before, most notably Adric and Nyssa. I am very curious as to how Bonnie Langford will turn out. A. G. Percus (ARPA) percus@acf4 (NYU) percus.acf4 (UUCP) ...{allegra!ihnp4!seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Mar 86 0927-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #37 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 8 Mar 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 37 Today's Topics: Books - Mitchell & Morris & Robinson & Uttley & Wolfe, Films - Brazil & Andre Norton, Miscellaneous - Sflovers where are you? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: AFTER THE FLAMES edited by E. Mitchell Date: 5 Mar 86 16:19:15 GMT AFTER THE FLAMES edited by Elizabeth Mitchell Baen, 1985 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper This book consists of three novellas. "The Election" by Robert Silverberg has nothing particularly new to offer, and is quite predictable-- a disappointment from a talent like Silverberg's. "World War Last" by Norman Spinrad fits in well with the new wave of "cyber-punk, hackers-save- the-world" stories that have come along recently. "When Winter Ends" by Michael Kube-McDowell is a more traditional post-holocaust story tied in with the "what-would-you-put-in-a-shelter?" question. Not a great collection, but the Spinrad and Kube-McDowell are worth reading. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl Get a Usenetter on the ballot at Confederation! Nominate MARK R. LEEPER for Hugo for Best Fan Writer in 1986! Nominate SF-LOVERS' DIGEST for Hugo for Best Fanzine in 1986! ------------------------------ From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: AFTERWAR edited by Janet Morris Date: 5 Mar 86 16:18:29 GMT AFTERWAR edited by Janet Morris Baen, 1985 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper This collection of 11 stories of life after a nuclear war is less interesting than its introduction, it which Morris explains that her first request for such stories netted a large number of "elf stories." Although the list of contributors is impressive-- Gregory Benford, C. J. Cherryh, Ian Watson, and others--the stories are uniformly dull. There's not one (except perhaps Watson's "When Idaho Dived") that sticks in my mind even now. Skip it. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl (or ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl) ------------------------------ From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Robinson Bibliography **BOOKLIST** Date: 5 Mar 86 16:15:56 GMT As I promised when I requested it, I am posting the complete (?) Spider Robinson bibliography: Spider Robinson (1948- ) Bibliography Books: TELEMPATH Berkley/Putnam (Dec 1976) novel [expanded from "By any Other Name"] CALLAHAN'S CROSSTIME SALOON Ace Books (Jun 1977) collection ARMAGEDDON 2419 A.D. Ace Books (?, 1978) novel [a "modernization" of Philip Nowlan's novel] THE BEST OF ALL POSSIBLE WORLDS Ace Books (Apr 1978) anthology STARDANCE Dial Press (Mar 1979) novel [with Jeanne Robinson] ANTINOMY Dell Books (Oct 1980) collection TIME TRAVELERS STRICTLY CASH Ace Books (Mar 1981) collection MINDKILLER Holt, Rinehart, Winston (Sep 1982) novel [expanded from "God Is an Iron"] MELANCHOLY ELEPHANTS Penguin Books [Canada] (1984) collection [adds 2 more stories] Tor Books (May 1985) NIGHT OF POWER Baen Books (May 1985) novel Short Fiction: "The Guy with the Eyes" ANALOG (Feb 1973) "The Time-Traveler" ANALOG (Apr 1974) "The Dreaming Dervish" FANTASTIC (May 1974) "When No Man Pursueth" ANALOG (Nov 1974) "The Law of the Conservation of Pain" VERTEX (Dec 1974) "Nobody Likes to Be Lonely" GALAXY (Mar 1975) "Two Heads Are Better Than One" ANALOG (May 1975) "Overdose" GALAXY (Sep 1975) "Unnatural Causes or The Guy We Couldn't Help" ANALOG (Oct 1975) "A Voice is Heard in Ramah..." ANALOG (Nov 1975) "It's a Sunny Day" GALAXY (Jan 1976) "Half an Oaf" ANALOG ANNUAL (Apr 1976) [Ben Bova] "By Any Other Name" ANALOG (Nov 1976) [expanded into the novel TELEMPATH] "No Renewal" GALAXY (Mar 1977) "Stardance" ANALOG (Mar 1977) [with Jeanne Robinson] "The Centipede's Dilemma" CALLAHAN'S CROSSTIME SALOON (Jun 1977) "Just Dessert" CALLAHAN'S CROSSTIME SALOON (Jun 1977) "Tin Ear" COSMOS (Jul 1977) "The Magnificent Conspiracy" CHRYSALIS [1] (Aug 1977) [Roy Torgeson] "Dog Day Evening" ANALOG (Oct 1977) "Mirror/rirroM, Off the Wall" ANALOG (Nov 1977) "Too Soon We Grow Old" ANALOG YEARBOOK [1] (Mar 1978) [Ben Bova] "Apogee" BOREALIS [#1] (Summer 1978) [BOREALIS is a small-press magazine] "Stardance II" ANALOG (Sep, Oct, Nov 1978) [with Jeanne Robinson] "Antinomy" DESTINIES (Nov/Dec 1978) [mispelled as "Antimony" throughout its original appearance] "Satan's Children" NEW VOICES II (Feb 1979) [George R. R. Martin] "Local Champ" CHRYSALIS 4 (Feb 1979) [Roy Torgeson] "God is an Iron" OMNI (May 1979) [expanded into the novel MINDKILLER] "Fivesight" OMNI (Jul 1979) "Soul Search" OMNI (Dec 1979) "Have You Heard the One...?" ANALOG (Jun 1980) "Serpent's Teeth" OMNI (Mar 1981) "Chronic Offender" THE TWILIGHT ZONE (May 1981) "Pyotr's Story" ANALOG (12 Oct 1981) "The Missing Verse" FIFTY EXTREMELY S(HORT) F(ICTION) STORIES (1982) [Michael Bastraw] "Melancholy Elephants" ANALOG (Jun 1982) "Not Fade Away" IASFM (Aug 1982) "Rubber Soul" THE BEST OF OMNI SCIENCE FICTION No. 4 (1982) [Ben Bova & Don Myrus] "High Infidelity" OUI (Apr 1983) "Involuntary Man's Laughter" ANALOG (Dec 1983) "The Blacksmith's Tale" ANALOG (Dec 1985) Robinson is also reportedly one of a few authors who have written various items under the house name "B.D. Wyatt" [an anagram of "why'd he buy it?"]. We don't know which of the Wyatt items he may have written or even if he has confirmed that he did indeed write any of this. At any rate, these are the only two B. D. Wyatt items that are short stories: "Ambiguous Oracle" GALAXY (Jan 1976) "Want Ad" GALAXY (May 1976) Thanks to Jerry Boyajian (who else?!) for providing most of this list. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl (or ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl) ------------------------------ From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: A TRAVELLER IN TIME Date: 5 Mar 86 16:17:34 GMT A TRAVELLER IN TIME by Alison Uttley Ace, 1986 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper In order to regain her strength after an illness, an adolescent girl is sent to her aunt's ancient farmhouse in the English countryside. She falls under the spell of the house, at first only seeing people from Elizabethan times, but later traveling back in time herself. She falls in love and becomes involved in a plot to save Mary, Queen of Scots. Uttley's writing style reminds one of the beauty of the English countryside but the book, though not labeled as such, appears to be aimed at a juvenile audience, since none of the character's show the development an adult reader might hope for. As such, however, it is recommended for younger audiences, particularly those who have just studied the era in school. Two other notes--the book was originally written in 1939, which may explain the style. The spelling of the title is as it is on the book (perhaps the British preference is "traveller" instead of "traveler"?). Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl (or ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl) ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun Date: 6 Mar 86 14:37:40 GMT I've found that I really like Wolfe's short stories. Shortly after the BotNS came out, I picked up _Gene Wolfe's Book of Days_, which I enjoyed immensely. I could never get into the BotNS, though, for a couple of reasons. WHen I got _Free Live Free_ a few months ago, I had hoped that things would be different. Alas, I have temporarily given up it, about halfway through. Wolfe's style always seems to get to me after a few hundred pages. I can take it in small doses, but the prospect of page after page of it stretching out before me always makes me faintly queasy. _Free Live Free_ manages to overcome this by a certain lightness which is more like his short stories. The BotNS, though, moves along with the ponderous grace of the Vehicle Tranporter pulling away from the VAB. Also, the odd word trick doesn't work for me. SInce it's such a high-wire act, one slip ruins it, and when I ran across "palaquin" used in the wrong context, the spell was broken. Not caring for the subject matter all that much anyway, I've never seriously attempted to pick it up again. Its certainly true that Wolfe requires rather deliberate and careful reading. That's partly why I haven't finished _Free Live Free_; things have gotten in the way and I haven't had the time to devote to it. C. Wingate ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: BRAZIL Date: 5 Mar 86 16:14:43 GMT BRAZIL A film review by Mark R. Leeper Capsule review: This is the best science fiction film of 1985. But catch this story of an Orwellian future quickly --it won't be around for long. 1984 never came. At least, not the way that George Orwell pictured it in 1984. The book was his prediction from the viewing point of 1948 of what the next 36 years could bring. It is a moot point how accurate his prediction was, but the book is still a valuable yardstick for measuring our current world. It has been a valuable yardstick for years. BRAZIL is a new film. It does not have the track record of having been useful for years. However, it also seems to be a prediction from the viewpoint of 1948 of how the world could have turned out and today it is no less valuable than 1984 as a yardstick for measuring today's society. In the world of BRAZIL technology has stagnated. The lords of creation are a megalithic bureaucracy and, apparently, the people who make heating ducts. All the technology in the world is refinements of inventions that were around at the end of World War II. (One exception, I think, is the Fresnel lens, but for society to have changed so much and for only one invention to come along is a rather telling indictment of this political system.) This is a paper-bound society in which the path to getting the smallest thing done has the form in a triangle. The greatest public enemy is a man who does repairs without red tape. In this world one minor official, one Sam Lowry, has abstract dreams of escaping the dingy crush of government world and flying free with his ideal woman. These fantasies have sapped Lowry's will to get ahead at the dismal Ministry of Information. When he finds that the woman he has been dreaming of really exists, he starts fighting the mournful inertia of the society to try to find her. Terry Gilliam seems to have for some time wanted to do in live action the sort of things he did in animation for MONTY PYTHON. He nearly succeeded in TIME BANDITS, but the script of that film was extremely uneven. This time he co-authored the script with Tom Stoppard, considered to be one of the greatest living playwrights. And the choice of Stoppard paid off. For the first time in his career, Gilliam was not just making people laugh, he was telling a story of substance. Instead of just joking about the meaning of life, Gilliam is now actually saying something about it. Jonathan Pryce, who oozed malevolence in SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES, carries the film as San Lowry. Also on hand are familiar faces like Robert De Niro, Ian Holm, Katherine Helmond, and Michael Palin. This film gets a +2 for pleasure, but on the -4 to +4 scale it can get nothing less than a +3 for artistic achievement. This was the best science fiction film of 1985. A recent FILM COMMENT takes Universal to task for releasing STICK, JAMES JOYCE'S WOMEN, CREATOR, MORONS FROM OUTER SPACE, DREAM CHILD, WILD GEESE II, and HOLOCAUST COVENANT in 1985, while deciding BRAZIL was unreleasable. Universal is absolutely right. A film this good probably will not attract enough of the teenage audience to make it profitable. It will play at your local art theater a week and then disappear, like SMILE or STUNT MAN. And just like these films, people will be rediscovering BRAZIL for years to come. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: "The Beast Master" Movie Date: 5 Mar 86 20:36:30 GMT tainter@ihlpg.UUCP (Tainter) writes: >> By the way, those same sources tell me that *another* >> Norton book is being prepared for filming(they now have the first >> draft of the script and a financing contract from a studio) This >> time Andre Norton has retained creative control the script will >> not be used unless she approves of it. So it should be very good. > >Don't be too sure. I understand F. Herbert retained creative >control of DUNE and look at the abomination that was. It is not just that that gives me confidence in the new film. I know the man who is putting the package together, and I trust his judgement in these matters. He is a film professional with a strong commitment to quality in Science Fiction films. Also, I know one of the technical advisors being used on the film, and in his area of expertise he is very good. Also, I have heard excerpts from the script, and was suitably impressed. Of course enough pressure from the studio to make it conform to "standard" SF film style could still ruin it. If that happens, I will hear about it plenty fast. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ARPA: ttidca!psivax!friesen@rand-unix.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 86 11:23 CST From: MSgt Robert L. Stevenson Subject: SF-LOVERS WHERE ARE YOU? Hello out there. Is anybody listening? It seems (by the lack of digests) that the subscribers to SF-LOVERS have run out of things to say (or flame about). Now I know that I am not a volumnous contributor to SF-LOVERS, but I really enjoy reading the comments/criticisms of others. As was stated in an earlier digest, I look for those whose opinions about science fiction parallel my own. Then when a comment is made about a book/movie/TV program/etc. I can have a fairly good idea if I will enjoy it. Speaking of enjoying things, I really enjoy Amazing Stories. To date I have found very little to complain about. In fact so little that it isn't even worth bothering the net with it. Looking forward to hearing from SF-LOVERS, I remain Steve DOET.AFCC@AFCC.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Mar 86 0959-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #38 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 17 Mar 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 38 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Apologies, Books - Coney & Norton & Pohl (2 msgs) & Pratchett & Wolfe (2 msgs) & Sime/Gen (2 msgs) & Nebula Winners Books, Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide (2 msgs), Television - Robotech & Blake's 7, Miscellaneous - A Short Story ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Mar 86 09:32:43 EST From: Saul Subject: My Apologies Greetings fellow sf-lovers. I am writing this message to you because I feel that I owe each and every one of the readers of this digest an apology. I know you are all suffering acute symptoms of withdrawal because you haven't seen a digest in a long time. There are many reasons for this: vacation, illness, business trips, mail problems, etc. but I know none of this makes you feel any better. Because things happened so fast I was unable to make arrangements for someone to handle the list while I was away and because I was away I didn't realize that there had been mailer problems. In any case, I am back now and barring unforseen circumstances, the digest will continue and it is as strong as it ever was. There are a lot of back messages to clear out of the queue and I will get these all out to you as soon as possible. Enjoy reading!!! Saul ------------------------------ From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: MIRROR IMAGE by Michael G. Coney (mild spoiler) Date: 4 Mar 86 23:08:44 GMT The jacket reads: "If an alien life form can adapt to human shape and emotions and actually believes itself to be human, does that make it a man? That was one of the problems confronting the colonists on Marilyn when they discovered the shape-changing amorphs. At first the creatures were used simply as a labour force, then an experiment produced a super-amorph--and a rebellion. And out of that came something else, something with galaxy-shaking implications: an amorph female gave birth to a baby that would think no evil... to a new messiah?" The jacket description is very misleading in that it covers events from the beginning to the end of the novel, leading the reader to think that the birth mentioned occurs early enough to figure into the plot. It doesn't. All of the action takes place on the newly-colonized planet Marilyn. The conditions there and the behavior of the colonists seem quite believable. The main characters portrayed are somewhat stereotyped: dedicated supervisor, greedy and egotistical tycoon, long-suffering girl friend, eccentric scientist, and so on. The investigation into the nature of the amorphs is very interesting, mainly from the psychological and sociological standpoints. The story kept me well entertained until around the last quarter, and that last part isn't bad; it just doesn't measure up to what precedes it. I give this book 3.0 stars (very good). I don't hesitate to recommend it to others to read, but it's not a book I'd keep permanently. By the way, this was Mr. Coney's first book (copyright 1972). Duane Morse ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ From: utflis!chai@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: New Norton Movie Date: 8 Mar 86 00:14:03 GMT friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes: >tainter@ihlpg.UUCP (Tainter) writes: >> By the way, those same sources tell me that *another* Norton >> book is being prepared for filming(they now have the first draft > >I have heard excerpts from the script, and was suitably impressed. Did I miss it, or are you keeping the name of the movie/book secret??? I'm DYING to know which story it is!! Henry Chai ( guest on suran@utcsri ) {utzoo,ihnp4,allegra,decwrl}!utcsri!utflis!chai chai%utflis@TORONTO ------------------------------ From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert) Subject: Re: review, Frederik Pohl's "The Merchants' War" Date: 6 Mar 86 16:37:58 GMT ctj@msudoc.UUCP (Chris Johnson) writes: > Frederik Pohl's "The Merchants' War" > > Opinion: Frederik Pohl has written a book which I feel ranks with > Gulliver's Travel's. The satire is very strong but presented in a > manor calculated to entertain. The story flows well without ever > becoming bogged down. Even though you KNOW, that the author is > preaching at you, it never seems to become overbearing. > > The hero of this little war is quite believable as he makes his > way from an "starclass copysmith" to human. The path is not easy > but the trials Tarb encounters never quite destroy him. Some of > the wonderful things in this world of tomorrow (today?:_) which > Tarb must deal with include: Being addicted to Mokie (aka Coke) via > a new advertising methods; Joining the army to help "civilize" the > aborigine tribes; And dealing with "Veenies" patriots who have a > hard time understanding advertisements at all. > > Everything considered, I would recommend "The Merchants' War" to > anyone who has ever had to watch thirty min. of commercials for > twenty min. of a good movie on the reruns. Apparently you have never read much Pohl (or more correctly Pohl and Kornbluth) as this is the sequel to "Space Merchants" written over 20 years ago. Why it took so long, I do not know. Since it has been quite a long time since I read Space Merchants, I do not know how much of SM's plot carried over to the new book. Back to writing lists of books..... Bill ------------------------------ From: norman@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Norman Ramsey) Subject: Re: review, Frederik Pohl's "The Merchants' War" Date: 7 Mar 86 16:47:15 GMT Would someone knowledgeable care to comment on the relationship between this work and Pohl and Kornbluth's classic _The_Space_Merchants_? Norman Ramsey norman@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu ------------------------------ From: puff!anich@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Anich) Subject: Re: "new group..." Date: 7 Mar 86 23:57:48 GMT I think there should be more discussion of fantasy books on the net. How 'bout this to start things off: What are some good recent fantasy books? I just read 'The Colour of Magic' by Terry Prattchet (I think that's how its spelled). It was a fine humorous story. Steve Anich anich@puff.UUCP ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Wolfe the best? Date: 5 Mar 86 15:00:17 GMT >.... Philip Dick is also wonderful, but he's not writing much >these days.... How do you know? Just because he's not getting much published doesn't mean he's not writing (as I know to my regret.) Maybe the mail service is not very efffective from where he is? >.... (One of my favorite small things about all the authors >mentioned above is that they don't feel a need to barrage their >readers with unpronounceable names for characters and places; they >have far less stagey ways of conveying alienness.) On the other hand, expecting alien races with alien physiologies to have nice easily-pronouncable names is pretty blatantly species-chauvinistic. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ From: ptsfd!djo@caip.rutgers.edu (Dan'l Oakes) Subject: Re: `Funny Words' in TBOTNS Date: 6 Mar 86 17:39:42 GMT pete@stc.co.uk writes: >[these "funny words"] are all from `The Shadow of the Torturer'. I'm rather surprised noone's mentioned this, but in THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER, an excellent book he wrote about TBotNS and its writing, Wolfe includes a five-or-six page list of words from SotT. I won't post it as it's copyright, but the book is available in an SFBC edition. Recommended. Dan'l Oakes ------------------------------ From: udenva!fcarmody@caip.rutgers.edu (Prince Caspian) Subject: Where are the Sime fans? Date: 7 Mar 86 20:18:22 GMT I posted an article on an excellent post-holocaust/special mutation series a while back and recieved absolutely *no* response. The last volume of the series which I have picked up has a report of *at least three* flourishing underground publications...ergo there *must* be somebody out there who enjoys it.... So where are the Sime fans? The series is group-titled "the Sime/Gen Universe" and is written by (so far) Jaqueline Lichtenberg (sp?) and Jean Lorrah. Titles so far include: House of Zeor Unto Zeor, Forever First Channel Mahogany Trinrose (out of print) Channel's Destiny Rensime! Ambrov Keon These are all that I have heard of so far. Forthcoming titles are many and include *Sime from Gen Divided*, which is a pivot-point in the series. I *know* you're out there... If you've read them, *talk to me*! If you haven't and you like post-holocaust, mutants, or just a well- executed universe, enjoy! Prince Caspian of Narnia, AKA Francis X. Carmody Electronic Adress (UUcp only:{hplabs,seismo}!hao!udenva!fcarmody} OR: {boulder,cires,denelcor,cisden}!udenva!fcarmody ------------------------------ From: cisden!phillips@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Phillips) Subject: Re: Where are the Sime fans? Date: 7 Mar 86 23:19:36 GMT I read one of these (maybe the first?) when I was in high school, and I really enjoyed the book. I haven't read any since because I haven't seen them. Now that I have the names of the authors I will look harder. Tommy Phillips cisden!phillips ------------------------------ From: rayssd!hlg@caip.rutgers.edu (Harry L. Goldenbloome) Subject: Nebula Award Winners Date: 6 Mar 86 21:40:36 GMT I recently called Bantam books in New York and asked about the 19th issue of Nebula Award Winners, the paper back version. They said they weren't going to produce one nor were they going to produce a 20th. There is always the Hard Cover version I guess but for consistancy I would like to see the paper back version. Does anybody know why Bantam is not producing it (they wouldn't give me a reason) and is some obscure publishing house going to produce it? Harry Goldenbloome, Raytheon Co, Submarine Signal Div., 1847 West Main Rd, Portsmouth, RI 02871 {allegra, decvax!brunix, ccice5}!rayssd!hlg ------------------------------ From: tracy@ism780 Subject: Re: Wanted: Hitchhiker's Guide Recordin Date: 6 Mar 86 18:37:00 GMT I have recordings of the first 6 episodes in my possesion at home. I can post you the labels of the recording company if you wish. If any one else knows where additional episodes can be found, let me know becuase the radio series was always the best of the HHGttG series, surpassing the books and the TV series both. ------------------------------ From: ncoast!tomt@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas N. Tucker) Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Date: 7 Mar 86 04:50:43 GMT The records are available from Hannibal Records. As is explained on the sleeve the records are not duplicates of the book or BBC broadcast, but are still quite enjoyable. The albums are titled _The Hithchikers Guide to the Galaxy / Part One_ and part two. Part one is Hannibal HNBL 2301 and I believe my copy came from Canada. Hannibal's address is Hannibal Records Inc. 611 Broadway Suite 415 New York, NY 10012 Tom Tucker tomt@ncoast ------------------------------ From: watmath!mwtilden@caip.rutgers.edu (M.W. Tilden, Hardware) Subject: ROBOTECH Back Episode Responses: Hello? Date: 6 Mar 86 16:52:46 GMT Hi, A month ago (feb 5) I sent out a request for ROBOTECH back episodes on beta format tape. A word of thanx to everyone who sent me info on the series and other Japanimation classics. However, seeing as I've gotten no response mail to the answers I sent out, I'm wondering if it might have something to do with my mail server. Has anybody heard from me? I'm pretty sure postnews works at least and thus this message. And no, I still don't have the tapes. (First 17 episodes) Talk to me someone! Mark Tilden or by snail at... 251 Erb St. W. #5 Waterloo, Ontario. Canada. N2L-1V8 ------------------------------ From: sdcc6!ix312@caip.rutgers.edu (ix312) Subject: Blake's 7, background info wanted Date: 8 Mar 86 06:12:49 GMT I have recently seen an episode of Blake's 7 on KPBS in San Diego. I thought it was really quite good. The technical aspects and plot development are a lot like Doctor Who, though this particular story line did come right out of Star Trek. Anyway, what I like to know is if anyone out there knows the show and can give me some information on it, such as who are these people? how did they get together? and why? Just what is the basic plot line and any background on the characters. (I was able to figure out that Blake and his crew are the good guys.) Also, Blake and his crew only total to six, who is number 7? ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!ramsay@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC440) Subject: Possibly a first for sf-lovers Date: 5 Mar 86 19:02:32 GMT Psychosis Carsoma Empty the Building, dark the Night. I turned, and as I turned, I fired, but it was only a dream. The shadows made the Building look featureless, bad as it really was. I met my contact under the WALKDONTWALK sign, but the people weren't there, the cars neither, and it was only a dream. The music was louder than I remembered it, all on one line, shattering against my coat. Suddenly, it had been raining for several hours, and my contact dripped into the air. "You're late." he said. "Of course I'm late. It's these damn nightmares I keep having. I'm having one now, so talk fast." He swung around and pointed towards the Building. "There. They're waiting for you in there. The door'll become clearer as you approach. Now vamoose - and you didn't see me, this meeting didn't take place." I moved towards the Building, its oak doors filling out as I reached to knock. Soundless, they swung in sweating. The bedclothes swept away and I looked around. It was night. With shaking hands, I took one of the pills I'd kidded myself I wouldn't need, swallowing it like a stone. I was back in the Building, trudging up the stairs past the stuffed animal heads, each one reminding me where I'd seen it killed. As I reached the top, the line ended. It ended with an empty plaque, a name and number on it that should have been mine - for all I knew, it might be. The ultimate insult - my head up here with a stranger's name. They were like that, fond of their unappreciated little jokes. There was only one door, at the end of the corridor, slightly ajar. I knew what was beyond it, so I ignored it and went back down the stairs to the front door, which I opened. The trap was complete - it was her office. "Take a seat," she cruelly said, and sat behind a desk. "Well," I said, "I'm wanted dead; by you, and no-one else." The file she opened was red with blood from her slashed wrists which still dripped at intervals. She drew out the single piece of paper within, scanning it efficiently. After a pause, she looked up at me. "Why do you hate women so much?" I stood to attention. "My mother was a bitch. Ma'am." "I see. A valid enough reason. Why did you kill me?" "You took away my pride. Miss." She nodded wisely. "One final question. Why do you relive my death in nightmares like these?" "Guilt. It's my punishment, punishment for your perfect murder that I committed. Your body's been buried in the churchyard if you want it." Still she was calm. "That'll be all, then. You can wake up now." I woke up, catching myself in the unconscious act of reaching for another pill. cut here I woke up this morning - and thought, what about some sf in sf-lovers? So here is what *I* consider to be my best short story. No snide comments, though I'd welcome constructive thoughts. Also, if there's a net.fiction or its equivalent, I apologize. (Stop grovelling, Ramsay, these people are your friends...) Edging slowly off to one side, R. Ramsay ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Mar 86 1025-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #39 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 17 Mar 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 39 Today's Topics: Books - Benford & Eddings & Feist (3 msgs) & Herbert (2 msgs) & Hogan & Wolfe & Biographies, Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide (3 msgs), Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs) & Amazing Stories, Miscellaneous - Quote Source & Conventions (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bambi!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael Caplinger) Subject: HEART OF THE COMET, by Benford and Brin Date: 10 Mar 86 00:55:43 GMT This book disappointed me. A capsule synposis would be IN THE OCEAN OF NIGHT meets STARTIDE RISING. I was surprised at how the flavor and favorite plots of the authors came through, but I don't think they mix very well. Basic plot: expedition to Halley's Comet in 2061 runs into trouble. We have intelligent computers, genetically-enhanced supermen, a love triangle, and strange lifeforms. Time prohibits me from drawing parallels to earlier works, but they're obvious if you've read the above books. By the way, is anybody disappointed in Benford? I thought TIMESCAPE was the best SF book about physics there ever could be, but it seemed to be a fluke-- he hasn't written anything even half as good since. (ARTIFACT was just awful--it might as well not have been SF.) I don't recommend buying this in hardcover. You might wait for the paperback. It IS well-written, competent hard SF; it just doesn't cover much new ground or say anything terribly interesting. Mike Caplinger (mike@bellcore.com) ------------------------------ Date: Mon 10 Mar 86 04:44:51-PST From: Roger Crew Subject: Re: _Belgariad_ review (major spoilers) Re Belgariad: Sorry, guys. I have to give this a lukewarm recommendation at best. Entertaining even, if you don't mind the fact that it is completely predictable. This might still have been good had not the author felt compelled to stretch it out over five volumes (...this is a disturbing trend in itself, but this flame is long enough as it is...) (*** SPOILER WARNING ***) The least he could have done was to throw in a plot twist. Yes, just a little something unexpected, that's all I ask. There were all sorts of things I was hoping he would try: 1) Have Torak turn out to have some plausible purpose of his own other than basic evil and nastiness (we never did get to see what it was the other prophecy wanted, but Eddings probably never bothered to try coming up with anything reasonable, anyway...), 2) Provide Aldur with his own faults/evil-tendencies (maybe have that prologue to Volume 5 [ Torak's side of the story ] be true in some important respect...) 3) Have some of the bad feeling towards Angaraks be due to centruies of accumulated prejudice (an episode with Garion running into some Murgos who weren't completely evil, vicious, and nasty might have been a good idea...). 4) Plant some doubts to make us think that Garion could actually become like Z'akath or Chtuchik someday... (i.e., corrupted by power). I mean that if you're going to make your protagonist powerful enough to blow everyone else off the face of the earth without any particular effort involved, you better do *something* to make the story interesting. Let's face it, there were all sorts of wonderful opportunities for some heart-rending moral dilemmas that were just thrown away (this actually bothers me more than a bad story, namely, an o.k. story with lots of potential that never gets realized). It's not as if Eddings wasn't interested in this either (witness the scenes of anguish when people start getting killed in the big battle in Book 5). But all we ever get are these lamentations like CeNedra's ``Gosh, I'm raising this whole army and they're all going to get killed. But I have to do it, 'cause the prophecy says so...'' Convenient thing, having that prophecy to justify everything they do, ``Yup, we're on a mission from God....'' And of course, nobody really gets hurt (you may as well take all of the people that get killed and put red t-shirts on them that say CANNON-FODDER (or SECURITY-GUARD if you're into Star Trek...)). I also have trouble with these endings in which EVERYBODY gets MARRIED. Notice how we're also set up for a sequel (the further adventures of the Orb... coming soon, no doubt -- sigh, -- I'll probably end up buying it, too). roger ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 86 08:32 PST From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Forthcoming Books Info Wanted A DARKNESS AT SETHANON by Robert E. Feist is already out in hardback. I'm reading it now, and it looks to be up to the same quality as the previous two novels. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 10 Mar 1986 11:23:30-PST From: cobb%sahq.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: "MAGICIAN" IN HARDBACK Hello, I'm looking for a hardback copy of "MAGICIAN" by Raymond Feist. I don't want to get a book club edition, and I'd prefer the U. S. edition as opposed to the English edition. If anyone has a copy they would like to sell, please contact me by electronic mail or U. S. Mail at : Ken Cobb 1401 N. Hairston Rd. # 11-T Stone Mtn., GA 30083 Phone: (404) 469-7213 I'm not looking to pay an arm & a leg, but, I would like to have a complete set. Thanks in advance, Ken Cobb ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: Forthcoming Books Info Wanted Date: 11 Mar 86 06:24:09 GMT ins_adsk@jhunix.UUCP (David S Kerven) writes: >I was wondering if anyone has any idea when the following books >will be coming out: > A DARKNESS AT SETHANON by Robert E. Feist I do not know about the others you listed, but this one is already available, though only in hardback. Incidentally, it is Raymond, not Robert. If time permits, I shall be reviewing this soon. Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1415) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ From: chinet!blm@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad L. McKinley) Subject: Frank Herbert!!! Please say it isn't so!!! Date: 8 Mar 86 10:37:37 GMT Someone told me today that Frank Herbert recently died. If so, science fiction has lost in my opinion its' greatest creative genius. I've read the "Dune" series up through "Chapterhouse: Dune" and I can say without question that it is THE most impressive work I've read in science fiction. Is this just a bad rumor? I normally don't read this group so if this has already been discussed I apologize. Name : Brad L. McKinley --- (503) 889-4321 USMail: M D R Professional Software, Inc., 915 SW 3rd Avenue, Ontario, OR 97914 Usenet: ihnp4!chinet!blm OR ihnp4!chinet!mdr!blm ------------------------------ From: puff!hammen@caip.rutgers.edu (Zaphod Beeblebrox) Subject: Re: Frank Herbert!!! Please say it isn't so!!! Date: 10 Mar 86 00:41:12 GMT Yes, it's true. Frank Herbert died at the University Hospital here a couple of weeks back. I'm not sure when or of what. Robert J. Hammen {ihnp4,allegra,seismo}!uwvax!puff!hammen U. of Wisc. CS Dept. U. of Wisc. Plasma Physics Dept. Manta Software Corp. ------------------------------ From: Eyal mozes Date: Mon, 10 Mar 86 15:27:43 -0200 Subject: Hogan's The Proteus Operation I wonder if anyone can tell me whether James P. Hogan's The Proteus Operation has come out in paperback, and if not, is it supposed to come out soon? Thank you, Eyal Mozes BITNET: eyal@wisdom CSNET and ARPA: eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA UUCP: ..!ucbvax!eyal%wisdom.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 1986 09:48-PST Subject: Book of the New Sun series From: WILBUR@OFFICE-2.ARPA I am a fairly new subscriber to SF-Lovers so if my request was asked & answered before vol.11#30, please repeat it. It sounds as though with all the contraversy about what do people see in Wolfe's Book of the New Sun series that I should dip into it. Can anyone give me the order that BotNS should be read in. Is the series still being published or did Wolfe wrap it up? I will appreciate the complete listing of titles. Faye ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!srt@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Requesting Autobiographies/Biographies of SF Authors Date: 8 Mar 86 05:46:05 GMT I've just finished reading _The Way the Future Was_, Frederik Pohl's memoir, and I'm interested in reading others, particularly any that concentrate on the technique of writing. Please reply via mail if possible. Scott R. Turner ARPA: (now) srt@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA (soon) srt@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU UUCP: ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt FISHNET: ...!{flounder,crappie,flipper}!srt@fishnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ From: sunybcs!ugthomas@caip.rutgers.edu (Timothy Thomas) Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Date: 8 Mar 86 22:25:37 GMT >I have the first two books (Hitchhikers and Restaurant) on >cassette. I know that the records exists (that's where I got my >tapes), but they are hard to find. If you say you have the first 2 books on tape, then you (probably) dont have the original broadcasts. I do not believe that they were separated then into three parts corresponding to the three books; in fact they are *quite* different after you get 1/2 into the tapes. Timothy D. Thomas SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science UUCP: [decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath,rocksvax]!sunybcs!ugthomas CSnet: ugthomas@buffalo, ARPAnet: ugthomas%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY ------------------------------ Date: Mon 10 Mar 86 11:02:56-PST From: Lynn Gold Subject: HHGttG radio show vs. the records I have the records. They're quite fun, but they're not the BBC radio show. The radio series was edited down and re-recorded for the records; I believe the reason had something to do with copyright infringement. A word to anyone who tries to tape them: if you're using 90-minute cassettes, be sure you have an extra-long 90-minute cassette; if you don't, you'll wind up a couple of minutes short. I know -- I tried it. Lynn UUCP: ...lll-crg!figmo ARPA: Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM ------------------------------ Subject: Hitch-hicker Date: Mon, 10 Mar 86 20:19:22 -0500 From: E. Wesley Miller Jr. There are 2 two-albumn sets that make up the HHGTTG and TRATEOTU. They are produced by HANNIBAL RECORDS, 611 Broadway, Suite 415, New York, New York 10012. The albumn numbers are HNBL2301 and HNBL 1307, the first albumn is 2301. These are taken from the BBC Radio 4 series. Peter Jones is the voice of THE BOOK, Simon Jones as Arthur Dent, Stephen Moore as Marvin, the Paranoid Android, and also the Whale, the Barman, Benjy Mouse, Shooty and Gag Halfrunt, and all those others that we have known and loved, etc., etc. As you can tell I have the albumns. Unfortunately, the first albumn (2301) only contains the first 2/3 of HHGTTG. The last 1/3 is on albumn 2 (1307) with TRATEOTG. With the above numbers, one should be able to order these from your standard mark I record store. I also have a Canadian address if anyone would like it. ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 10 Mar 1986 08:12:02-PST From: roberts%forty2.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Companions of Dr. Who written out. Most faithful of Dr. Who's companions, K9, was also written out of the show, to much wailing and gnashing of teeth by true Dr. Who fans everywhere. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 86 08:02 EST From: " Roz " Subject: Dr Who and Peri I just saw my first episode with Peri (this weekend). It had Colin Baker as the Dr, and took place on Varos (previously a prison planet? complete with televised punishments and executions!). I don't know if it was a lack of chemistry, poor script, or what; but, I was negatively impressed with "Peri". I am willing, however, to wait and watch more episodes to see how (if?) her character develops into something other than a nagging, simpering bowl of jello. Good grief! That sounds so harsh--maybe my weekend was worse than I thought! I don't remember her having even any "bad one-liners" let alone any good ones! (The Dr had a couple of okay to fair one-liners.) I'll have to wait for the rerun and watch that one over again...maybe it was because I was trying to bring my computerized checkbook up to date!?! Roz ------------------------------ From: drivax!holloway@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS WHERE ARE YOU? Date: 10 Mar 86 19:48:27 GMT DOET@AFCC-3.ARPA@caip.RUTGERS.EDU writes: >Speaking of enjoying things, I really enjoy Amazing Stories. To >date I have found very little to complain about. In fact so little >that it isn't even worth bothering the net with it. Are you talking about the MAGAZINE Amazing Stories, or the TELEVISION SERIES? My wife and I stopped watching Amazing Stories after the nth story about misunderstood kids in various forms and flavours. We prefer more adult flavours in our anthologies, like Twilight Zone.... A case in point: Both series did "Three Wishes" sketches. In the Amazing Stories version, three kids catch a leprechaun who grants them three wishes, one each. They wish for the ability to see through girl's clothing, the ability to control their parents, and a "state-of-the-art" car. Very pedestrian, very predictable. "Twilight Zone" showed a more realistic version, where a woman wishes to be rich, beautiful, and to make her ex impotent.... and how she is thwarted at every turn by bureaucracy. At one point, her "wish consultant" had her sign disclaimers stating that "the first wish usually turns out okay, the second isn't quite what you wanted, and the third is usually used to undo the first two." Bruce Holloway ....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Here's the Quote, What's the Title? Date: 08 Mar 86 03:33:37 PST (Sat) From: Alastair Milne > The situation: two characters in the story are having a > discussion (about sabotage?). One of them says to the other that > you can design a system which will safeguard against anticipated > error conditions [here's the quote] > > "... but you can't design a system that's proof against > deliberate malice." I can't be sure without more context, but this looks as if it came from an Asimov short story. And as I've read rather a lot of those, I'd be hard pressed to say which one. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ From: sdcc6!ix312@caip.rutgers.edu (ix312) Subject: CON locations Date: 8 Mar 86 07:18:58 GMT The problem is that I keep missing the local CONs held in and about San Diego. I don't have the time or money to even think about WorldCon or any other large convention, but I keep hearing about smaller (and less expensive) ones held nearby. Is there any listing anywhere of the smaller, local sf-conventions? I am particularly interested in San Diego to LA area. If anyone knows of any coming up I'd appreciate hearing about them. Or if you know of an easy way to find out that, too, would be helpful. ------------------------------ Date: Mon 10 Mar 86 10:13:45-PST From: Robert Pratt Subject: Worldcon '86 Could someone please post an address for getting information about Worldcon '86( i.e. tickets, hotels, events, etc.). Thanx, Bob P. ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 10 Mar 1986 08:32:51-PST From: cobb%sahq.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Rooms at Worldcon Chattacon has contracted for all the rooms in the DOWNTOWNER (which is directly across the street from the Marriot). The rooms will be $54.00 a night including tax. Rooms are available on a first come first serve basis. For information write to: Chattacon Worldcon Rooms P. O. Box 921 Hixson, TN 37343 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Mar 86 1119-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #40 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 17 Mar 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 40 Today's Topics: Books - Brust (2 msgs) & Card & Eddings (2 msgs) & Feist & Pohl (2 msgs) & Wolfe (2 msgs) & Zelazny & Sime, Films - Star Trek IV, Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide, Television - Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Renaissance Art & Conventions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 11 Mar 86 11:41:10-EST From: Laurence Brothers Subject: Jhereg Universe Query Since Steven Brust seems to have an account again, I hope he will be able to answer this question without giving away any details he would rather not yet disclose. It seems that Jhereg is the result of experience with some sort of fantasy roleplaying, at least, the availability of resurrection, magic weapons, and so on would seem to indicate so. If this is so, I would be interested in hearing something about the "game" that Jhereg may have come from -- was it an "orthodox" refereed dice-rolling game, or a more free-form roleplaying environment, or what? If Jhereg really did come from such a setting, then I would say it was the first successful piece of fiction to come from a roleplaying world, all others being rather ghastly renderings of the pseudo-medieval setting that seems common in these games. Oh wait, I liked DREAM PARK, but then, that was was really science fiction.... Laurence ------------------------------ From: scgvaxd!nt11777@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Brokedown Palace Date: 10 Mar 86 21:19:50 GMT >From: Joseph I. Herman (Joe) >It seemed to me that the story was really about revolution. Revolution, hmmmmm. I Hadn't thought of it that way but your examples do seem to fit well. I think the main theme involved was how people try their dam**st to look the other way and refuse to acknowledge their problems. I think Brust was saying we need not fear change and should embrace it. I also liked Brokedown Palace but haven't read any other Brust (I picked up BP only because someone else on the net said they'd enjoyed it). You imply BP is a little different that previous Brust, would you also recommend the others (Jhereg and Yendi, I believe)? Neal ------------------------------ From: inuxh!verner@caip.rutgers.edu (Matt Verner) Subject: Re: Wolfe the best? Date: 7 Mar 86 21:19:19 GMT I would recommend anything by Orson Scott Card. He has mainly been published in short story form but has a few very good novels out. Look for: Enders Game Planet of Solitude (I think) Back Issues of OMNI mag (Includes the Classic _Unaccompanied_Sonata_) He is very close to being on Wolfe's level and may very well surpass him over time, considering how short a time he has been writing (5 years?). Matt Verner AT&T Consumer Products Laboratories AT&T: (317) 845-3631 P. O. Box 1008 Indianapolis, IN 46206 UUCP: ...ihnp4!inuxc!verner ------------------------------ From: puff!anich@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Anich) Subject: Re: _Belgariad_ review (major spoilers) Date: 11 Mar 86 17:26:08 GMT Roger Crew writes: > Sorry, guys. I have to give this a lukewarm > recommendation at best. Entertaining even, if you don't mind the > fact that it is completely predictable. This might still have > been good had not the author felt compelled to stretch it out over > five volumes (...this is a disturbing trend in itself, but this > flame is long enough as it is...) I liked the 'Belgariad' but I must agree with your criticism. The book was predictable at times and the story was much to long. Episodes like the the summoning of the demons had little to do with the story line and seemed only existant to make the story longer. He could have used many variations off the the standard 'mission from God' theme to make a clasic story instead of just making a good story. A big problem is just that most 'epic' fantasies have absolute qualities in there world. The hero's deity is absolutly good, The deity's opposite is absolutely evil. The young hero truds along to fullfill a prophecy in which he becomes uncorruptable at its conclusion. (I did just read a novel that threw these out -- it was called ** Sagamore's Curse ** ,but it isn't the size of a multi-volumed story). I wish somebody would write a good story that examened the various shades of gray. > I also have trouble with these endings in which EVERYBODY gets > MARRIED. So did I. Eddings went overboard with the marriages( something more familiar in say, Heinlein's more recent novels). Steve Anich anich@puff.UUCP ------------------------------ From: andromeda!pete@caip.rutgers.edu (Peter Farabaugh) Subject: Belgariad (slight spoilers) Date: 13 Mar 86 00:17:31 GMT I have to put in my own two cents about the Belgariad. Most of what was said about the books was true. Yes it was predictable, yes it was classic Good/Evil (I suggest Donaldson for people who love grey areas, it is full of them and a damn fine story to boot {set deflector shields to full, sulu, incoming flames}, or The fist Xanth book, A Spell For Chamaelon, in which the alignments of the characters are fuzzy), and it had a lot of unneeded stuff in it. But putting that aside it was a very enjoyable book in which Eddings has created several very real and very interesting characters. The personalities and these and the interactions between them are what make these books such a pleasure to read. The way it is told through the confused and young eyes of Garion is charming. His view of the world is actually more interesting than if it werew told through a great hero or mage. Silk, my personal favorite, is highly reminiscent of The Grey Mouser or Jhary-a-conel. His remarks are always both bitingly sarcastic and uproariously funny. His dialogue as he pushes brill off the wall is a prime ewxample of this. I could babble on about this for pages but I wont. Each character adds something to the book and trhe way that the work together is brilliant. I give it my highest recommentdation as one of the most readable and enjoyable books to come along in a long time. I for one am eagerly awaiting the sequel. Peter Farabaugh ------------------------------ Date: Tue 11 Mar 86 11:31:49-EST From: Laurence Brothers Subject: coming books? To: ins_adsk@JHUNIX.BITNET Raymond Feist's A DARKNESS AT SETHANON is out in hardback. I found it a rather fun and satisfying conclusion to his Magician trilogy EXCEPT for the last few pages, which seem to let our heroes (and the multiverse) survive by deus ex machina, or blind luck, whichever is more appropriate. Laurence ------------------------------ From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: review, Frederik Pohl's "The Merchants' War" Date: 11 Mar 86 00:21:15 GMT > Would someone knowledgable care to comment on the relationship > between this work and Pohl and Kornbluth's classic > _The_Space_Merchants_? I recently read both "The Space Merchants" and "The Merchant's War" when the SFBC made them available in a 2-in-1 printing. The original, "The Space Merchants", is very fun, a biting satire of the advertising industry, well written, and at least as valid as social commentary now as it was when it was written years ago. "The Merchant's War" is a pale attempt to recreate the magic of the original, and I think Pohl tries too hard to write biting sarcasm -- the result is plodding and strident. In case it isn't obvious, I don't like the new book. Go read the original, my boy, and sequel no more..... Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.ARPA FidoNet: 125/84 {decwrl,decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo,ucbvax}!sun!chuq ------------------------------ From: ism780c!geoff@caip.rutgers.edu (Geoff Kimbrough) Subject: Re: review, Frederik Pohl's "The Merchants' War" Date: 12 Mar 86 02:05:21 GMT >Would someone knowledgable care to comment on the relationship >between this work and Pohl and Kornbluth's classic >_The_Space_Merchants_? Ok, TMW is two (two! two! books in one!) books in one binding. Part One IS _The Space Merchants_, and part Two is the sequel. I haven't seen the sequel (sorry, the (sub)title escapes me) published separately. Maybe the publisher thought that understanding the sequel depended too much on having read TSM, or maybe TSM was out of print. The sequel didn't seem *to*me* (hint: opinion) to be as good as TSM, but I can still recommend it. (I've been recommending _The_Space_Merchants_ for years as required reading for anyone considering a career in marketing.) Geoffrey Kimbrough ihnp4!allegra!ima!geoff sdcrdcf!ism780c!geoff ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun Date: 10 Mar 86 23:25:06 GMT mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes: >I've found that I really like Wolfe's short stories. Shortly after >the BotNS came out, I picked up _Gene Wolfe's Book of Days_, which >I enjoyed immensely. Then you should check out another collection of his stories, "The Island Of Dr. Death And Other Stories And Other Stories," in my opinion a collection that's superior to the "Book Of Days." Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ From: cbosgd!rtm@caip.rutgers.edu (Randy Murray) Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun Date: 7 Mar 86 19:42:30 GMT I've really been shocked at all the net-talk about how difficult it is to read Wolfe's work. His novel and short stories have been absolutely spellbinding to me. It seem as if a number of you claim to understand fiction (let alone science fiction), yet haven't learned to willingly suspend your disbelief. While recently reading one of his short stories "The eyeflash miracles" I had one of those revelations that makes you want to abuse innocent and uncaring bystanders. Wolfe understands that the reader is blind. The reader can never truly see anything, no matter how detailed or complex the description. The writer can only delude his audience into believing they see and understand. Wolfe can be painfully truthful in his fiction. The reader must not fix images in his mind and rely on them as stable. I can't believe that Wolfe is causing such a stir because he uses difficult language. The work in BotNS comes in not fighting the author. Let him take you where he wants to go. And if you think you were confused with BotNS, you should try one of his earlier novels, _Peace_. You can get lost in Wolfe's work. Why not sit in the dark and let Gene tell you a story. By the way, I was just introduced to the net. I love it. So let's hear from y'all. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 11 Mar 86 11:31:49-EST From: Laurence Brothers Subject: coming books? To: ins_adsk@JHUNIX.BITNET If anyone knows of the next Zelazny work, I also would like to know -- I heard that the reason for the cliffhanger in ToD was a publisher's decision to split the work, not that Zelazny hadn't written it yet, so it is strange that after almost a year the next book hasn't come out. Laurence ------------------------------ From: watdragon!smkindersley@caip.rutgers.edu (sumo kindersley) Subject: Where are the Sime fans? Date: 10 Mar 86 07:06:00 GMT Where are the Sime fans? not to mention the Gen fans! Here's one! I read Unto Zeor, Forever first and started looking for others in the series. I have only just found a couple more, First Channel is great so far, and I am looking forward to more. go ahead & try them. UZ,F was fine to start with but probably most of them would be, including FC. UUCP: {decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!watmath!watdragon!smkindersley CSNET: smkindersley%watdragon@waterloo.csnet ARPA: smkindersley%watdragon%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 86 10:55 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: ST IV news I had a most interesting phone conversation the other night with my club's "Medical Officer." She is, in fact, a nurse in real life and her hospital has been invaded: by the STIV filming crew! Her hospital happens to have an empty floor, so they built a set there (obviously for a 20th century hospital scene, from the costumes she's seen, nurses and candystripers) and just began filming. And she was really thrilled to run into "Doctor McCoy" in the hallways of her own hospital. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 1986 09:51 From: sigurd@oslo-vax (Sigurd Meldal) Subject: Re.: Wanted: Hitchhiker's Guide Recordings (At least) two albums based on the BBC Radio 4 recordings are available. Names: The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy --------------- " ---------------- Part Two Released on Original Records, with numbers ORA 42 and ORA 54, respectively. Distributed by Stage One (Records) Ltd. Parshire House 2 Kings rd. Haslemere Surrey (Good Ol') England (As a fallback: The address of Original Records is 2 Bloomsbury Place London WC1 England ) Sigurd Meldal ARPA: sigurd@oslo-vax Hard mail: Institute of Informatics University of Oslo pob. 1080 Blindern N - 0316 Oslo 3 Norway. ------------------------------ From: cbrma!karl@caip.rutgers.edu (Karl Kleinpaste) Subject: Re: ST episode (Assignment: Earth) question Date: 7 Mar 86 20:27:30 GMT thornton@kcl-cs.UUCP (PUT YOUR CAT HERE) writes: >A few minor points: Was the girl's IQ and shoesize really >comparable? Probably. You should notice that the actress was Teri Garr at the age of about 19 or so, whom you would readily recognize from Young Frankenstein (as the sexpot assistant), Close Encounters (as Richard Dreyfuss' wife), Mr Mom (the working wife), and other more recent movies. People seem to view the revelation of Garr in Star Trek much the way they view Joan Collins' presence in `that other episode' (no, I will not try to use an acronym), with much wonder and amazment. Karl Kleinpaste ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_adjb@caip.rutgers.edu (Daniel Jay Barrett) Subject: Renaissance art Date: 9 Mar 86 22:01:25 GMT I would appreciate some information from any of you Renaissance scholars in the Society For Creative Anachronism, or any other "Ren-Fair" folks. A friend of mine is writing a paper on SYMBOLISM OF MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS IN RENAISSANCE ART, and is dire need of some good sources, or any information you netters may have. Can someone out there provide any leads? Please e-mail me directly. Thanks very much! Dan Barrett ------------------------------ From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: CON locations Date: 11 Mar 86 00:38:33 GMT > The problem is that I keep missing the local CONs held in and > about San Diego. I don't have the time or money to even think > about WorldCon or any other large convention, but I keep hearing > about smaller (and less expensive) ones held nearby. Is there any > listing anywhere of the smaller, local sf-conventions? I am > particularly interested in San Diego to LA area. If anyone knows > of any coming up I'd appreciate hearing about them. Or if you know > of an easy way to find out that, too, would be helpful. The best con list I've found is in Locus magazine (the address is currently packed away in a box, let me know if you want subscription info). This is a monthly semi-prozine that acts as a newspaper to the SF/Fantasy field. Every two months they publish a list of every con they have information about (which is just about every con) and on alternate months they publish updates. Subscriptions are something like $16 a year, and you get a lot of information for it. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.ARPA FidoNet: 125/84 {decwrl,decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo,ucbvax}!sun!chuq ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Mar 86 0954-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #41 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 18 Mar 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 41 Today's Topics: Books - Burroughs & Cherryh & Dick (2 msgs) & Kornbluth & McCaffrey & Pohl (2 msgs), Comics - SF Book Adaptions, Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide, Miscellaneous - Road Rally ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert) Subject: **Booklist** Edgar Rice Burrough Books (Revised--Long List) Date: 12 Mar 86 03:26:58 GMT Correction per Evelyn C. Leeper. BURROUGHS, EDGAR RICE Tarzan: Tarzan of the Apes The Return of Tarzan The Beasts of Tarzan The Son of Tarzan Tarzan and the Jewels of Opar The Jungle Tales of Tarzan Tarzan the Untamed Tarzan the Terrible Tarzan and the Golden Lion Tarzan and the Ant Men Tarzan, Lord of the Jungle Tarzan and the Lost Empire Tarzan at the Earth's Core Tarzan the Invincible Tarzan Triumphant Tarzan and the City of Gold Tarzan and the Lion Man Tarzan and the Leopard Men Tarzan's Quest Tarzan and the Forbidden City Tarzan the Magnificent Tarzan and the "Foreign Legion" Tarzan and the Madman Tarzan and the Castaways The Eternal Lover (aka The Eternal Savage) Tarzan Juveniles: The Tarzan Twins Tarzan and the Tarzan Twins with Jad-bal-ja the Golden Lion (aka Tarzan and Tarzan Twins) Venus: Pirates of Venus Lost on Venus Carson of Venus Escape on Venue The Wizard of Venus Tales of Three Planets Mars: A Princess of Mars The Gods of Mars The Warlord of Mars Thuvia, Maid of Mars The Chessman of Mars The Mastermind of Mars A Fighting Man of Mars Swords of Mars Synthetic Men of Mars John Carter of Mars Llana of Gathol Earth's Core (Pellucidar Series): At the Earth's Core Pellucidar Tanar of Pellucidar Tarzan at the Earth's Core Back to the Stone Age Land of Terror Savage Pellucidar "Time Forgot" (Caprona Series): The Land That Time Forgot The People That Time Forgot Out of Times Abyss Miscellaneous: The War Chief Apache Devil (aka Red Hawk) The Mucker The Lost Continent (aka Beyond Thirty) The Girl From Hollywood The Cave Girl The Bandit of Hell's Bend The Eternal Lover (aka The Eternal Savage) The Moon Maid The Mad King The Outlaw of Torn The Monster Men Jungle Girl (aka The Land of the Hidden Men) The Oakdale Affair The Lad and the Lion The Moon Men The Deputy Sheriff of Comanche County The Girl From Farris's The Efficiency Expert I Am a Barbarian Beyond the Farthest Star The Rider Also see: Lupoff, Richard: Edgar Rice Burroughs: Master of Adventure Porges, Irwin: Edgar Rice Burroughs ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 1986 09:50-EST From: Joseph.Ginder@SPICE.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: C. J. Cherryh: Chanur's Venture begins a TRILOGY Well, having heeded the warnings about the cliff-hanger ending of "Chanur's Venture" I waited until the sequel to it, "The Kif Strike Back" was published before beginning to read. Alas, "The Kif Strike Back" also ends in something of a cliff-hanger. The story is to be concluded in a forthcoming third book, "Chanur's Homecoming". I am anxiously awaiting the third in the series. Thought I'd warn those of you who would prefer to acquire all three books before beginning the first. C.J. Cherry includes some notes at the end of "The Kif Strike Back" as to why she wrote in the trilogy form (including some speculation as to why that form has become so often used) and about how the Hani universe fits into her other works. The first two books in the Chanur trilogy are the beginning and middle of a story that is a sequel to "The Pride of Chanur" (no news here, just a clarification that in the authors mind the first Chanur book and the latest three are two different stories, not one four-book story). The Hani universe and the Downbelow Station/Merchanter's Luck/Forty Thousand in Gehenna universe are one! (This is something I would have never guessed (despite the similarities in technology and trading economies). Perhaps this is an afterthough?) The Compact of the Hani/Mahe/Kif etc. lies on the other side of Earth from the human occupied space of the other series. Humans (from the Earth-based component of the three major human politcal groups described in "Downbelow Station") are just making contact in a serious way in the Chanur trilogy. Tully is from this set of humans, it appears. (By the way, none of this gives away any important story details.) Mini-review: I liked "Chanur's Venture" and "The Kif Strike Back" quite a lot. I wish "Chanur's Homecoming" were available now, though -- I really want to see what happens! These books, while not destined for all-time classic, top-ten SF books ever written status, are excellent. If you like C.J. Cherry's other work (especially "The Pride of Chanur") you'll like these two. They continue the rollicking space-opera style of "The Pride of Chanur" with the same sort of character development that is typical of C.J. Cherryh's work -- space opera with real people (oops, real hani, mahe, kif ...). Quite exciting in spots, lots of intrigue, alien aliens (even though they bear similarities to various non-intelligent Earth species sometimes). All in all: very gripping and a satisfying read. To put it in "pidgin" terms (pidgin is a simple language sometimes used by the various aliens to communicate with each other): C.J. Cherry get much sfik these books! ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!ramsay@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC440) Subject: Is PKD really dead? Date: 10 Mar 86 22:18:17 GMT >>.... Philip Dick is also wonderful, but he's not writing much >>these days.... >How do you know? Just because he's not getting much published >doesn't mean he's not writing (as I know to my regret.) Maybe the >mail service is not very efffective from where he is? > Charlie Martin > (...mcnc!duke!crm) I could be wrong about this, but didn't Philip Dick die in 1982? This is what it says in the front of one of his books I have (can't remember which). If he was fooling, it was well detailed - it even said that the book in question was published with the permission of his estate. Anyone know? R. Ramsay ------------------------------ From: warwick!sfsoc@caip.rutgers.edu (Science Fiction + Fantasy From: Society) Subject: Re: Is PKD really dead? Date: 12 Mar 86 02:15:50 GMT ramsay@kcl-cs.UUCP (PUT YOUR NAME HERE) writes: >>How do you know? Just because he's not getting much published >>doesn't mean he's not writing (as I know to my regret.) Maybe the >>mail service is not very efffective from where he is? >> Charlie Martin >> (...mcnc!duke!crm) >I could be wrong about this, but didn't Philip Dick die in 1982? >This is what it says in the front of one of his books I have (can't >remember which). If he was fooling, it was well detailed - it even >said that the book in question was published with the permission of >his estate. Anyone know? I think a slight lack of netiquette is what caused the misunderstanding. Charlie should have followed the article with a nice little ':-)' or even ':-(' - new symbol for a sick joke anyone. What do you think he means by "Maybe the mail symbol is not very effective from where he is?"? UWSF&FS 131 Arts Fed Pigeonholes Uni. of Warwick Coventry CV 47 AL UK ------------------------------ From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert) Subject: **Booklist** C. M. Kornbluth Books Date: 12 Mar 86 03:25:04 GMT With help from Evelyn C. Leeper: KORNBLUTH, C. M.: (pseud. Cyril Judd) The Best of C.M. Kornbluth Explorers Gunner Cade (with Judith Merril) The Marching Morons A Mile Beyond the Moon Not This August The Syndic Takeoff see also: Pohl, Frederik ------------------------------ From: minster!angi@caip.rutgers.edu (angi) Subject: Re: Anybody got any information on non-sf McCaffrey? Date: 10 Mar 86 12:52:26 GMT The books listed below are all the Anne McCaffrey novels/short stories I know about. If anyone knows of any other ones, I'd love to know. Science fiction/fantasy: Dragonflight Dragonquest The White Dragon Dragonsong Dragonsinger: Harper of Pern Dragondrums Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern Get off the Unicorn Dinosaur Planet The Survivors (Dinosaur Planet II) Restoree Decision at Doona The Ship Who Sang To Ride Pegasus The Crystal Singer Non-sf: The Mark of Merlin Ring of Fear The Kilternan Legacy Stitch in Snow ------------------------------ From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert) Subject: Re: review, Frederik Pohl's "The Merchants' War" Date: 11 Mar 86 17:36:18 GMT Space Merchants tells the story of the Fowler Schocken Associates advertising agency and the early attempts by the Consies to subvert various things. It goes into the start of the colonizing of Venus. It also sets the stage by showing as an example how the agency can command a joint session of congress and the President of the U.S. cannot. It also shows the early influence of corporations by showing that the Representatives/Senators represent industries and not the states or the population. Merchant's War carries this theme into the distant future. Venus is now colonized and the triumphant ad agencies have basically taken over everything. They control totally Congress, the military, the political parties, etc. Fowler Schocken by this time is revered as a god of the ad agencies and it carries on with the Consie vs ad agency theme to a more or less logically conclusion. This is written after I have just re-read SM and read MW. I am sure that I have missed some of the more subtle points, but essentially MW is the logical sequel to SM, although the characters are different, due to the difference in the time frame. Bill ------------------------------ From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert) Subject: **Booklist** Frederik Pohl Booklist (Revised) Date: 12 Mar 86 03:28:38 GMT With the help of Evelyn C. Leeper: POHL, FREDERIK: (incomplete) The Abominable Earthman Age of the Pussyfoot Alternating Currents Assignment in Tomorrow The Best of Frederik Pohl Best Science Fiction for 1972 (editor) Beyond the Blue Event Horizon (Heechee series) Beyond the End of Time Bipohl: Two Novels Drunkard's Walk Age of the Pussyfoot The Case Against Tomorrow The Cool War Day Million Demon in the Skull (revised version of Plague of Pythons) Digits and Dastards Drunkard's Walk Early Pohl Edge of the City Expert Dreamers (editor) Farthest Star Galaxy (editor) Galaxy I (editor) Galaxy II (editor) Galaxy Reader 7 (editor) Galaxy Reader 8 (editor)(aka Final Encounter) Galaxy Reader 9 (editor) Galaxy Reader 10 (editor)(aka Doorway into Space?) Gateway (Heechee series) The Gold at the Starbow's End Heechee Rendezvous (Heechee series) If Reader of Science Fiction (editor) If Reader of Science Fiction 2 (editor) In the Problem Pit JEM Jupiter Man Plus The Man Who Ate the World The Merchants' War (Space Merchant series) Midas World The Nebula Award Stories 14 (editor) Nightmare Age A Plague of Pythons Planet's Three Pohlstars Science Fiction Discoveries (editor) Science Fiction: Great Years 1 (editor) Science Fiction: Great Years 2 (editor) SF: Studies in Film Shadow of Tomorrow Slave Ship Starbow Starburst Star of Stars (editor) Star Science Fiction No. 1 Star Science Fiction No. 2 Star Science Fiction No. 3 Star Science Fiction No. 4 Star Science Fiction No. 5 Star Science Fiction No. 6 Star Short Novels (editor) Syzygy Tomorrow Times Seven The Town Is Drowning Turn Left at Thursday The Way the Future Was The Years of the City POHL, FREDERIK & C.M. KORNBLUTH: (incompete) Before the Universe Critical Mass Gladiator-At-Law Presidential Year Search the Sky The Space Merchants (Space Merchant series) Wolfbane The Wonder Effect POHL, FREDERIK & JACK WILLIAMSON: (incomplete) Farthest Star (Farthest Star series) The Reefs of Space (Starchild series) Rogue Star (Starchild series) Starchild (Starchild series) Starchild Trilogy Reefs of Space Rogue Star Starchild Undersea City (Undersea series) Undersea Fleet (Undersea series) Undersea Quest (Undersea series) Wall Around a Star (Farthest Star series) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 86 14:36 EST From: SPWGBG%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Comics Having noticed a reference to the Comics Buyer's Guide in a recent SF-LOVERS issue, I'd like to ask the following question: How many SF and fantasy fans are also comic book fans? For my part, while I do tremendously enjoy SF and fantasy, my first love must be comics. In a related subject, DC (the second largest comic book company) has recently started a series of comic book adaptations of science fiction works. These are in the "graphic novel" format, $5.95, on slick paper and magazine sized. Those that have appeared include Robert Silverberg's _Nightwings_, Robert Bloch's _Hell on Earth_, and others. If the above information is redundant, I apologize; I've received only the last three SF-LOVERS. Greg Morrow spwgbg%irishmvs.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa ------------------------------ From: trwrba!pro@caip.rutgers.edu (Peter R. Olpe) Subject: Hitchhikers Date: 11 Mar 86 01:45:31 GMT >>I have the first two books (Hitchhikers and Restaurant) on >>cassette. I know that the records exists (that's where I got my >>tapes), but they are hard to find. > >If you say you have the first 2 books on tape, then you (probably) >dont have the original broadcasts. I do not believe that they were >separated then into three parts corresponding to the three books; >in fact they are *quite* different after you get 1/2 into the >tapes. The episodes I have contain up to the part where Ford and Arthur pull the scrabble letters out and come up with: What do you get if you multiply six by nine? (The answer of course being 42) I do not know what episode this is, but if anybody wants a copy of the series up to this point I will be glad to copy it for them. Also, if anyone has the subsequent episodes I would greatly appreciate it if they would tell me where to find them. I am not even sure they exist! Pete Olpe UUCP Path: ...{decvax,ucbvax,hplabs}!trwrb!trwrba!pro ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 86 09:24:29 EST From: cerebus%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Copy of file RALLY Hello, I would like to make a couple of announcements, and they are both Science Fiction Related, so please bear with me. 1) I am trying to set up an Albany to Boston Rally for next BOSKONE. It will be held on the Massachusetts Turnpike, and the goal is to drive abreast the entire way at 55 mph. 2) There is now a digest dedicated to live role playing games (Killer, Assassin, KAOS, RECON, etc.). If you like live role playing games, you will want to be part of this digest. If you are interested in either of these activities, write to me. my address is: SAROFF%UMASS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Thank you, Matthew Saroff ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Mar 86 1014-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #42 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 18 Mar 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 42 Today's Topics: Books - Sexuality in SF and Fantasy (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: teklds!hankb@caip.rutgers.edu (Hank Buurman) Subject: Women in sf/fantasy #1 Date: 11 Mar 86 15:26:41 GMT I am re-posting these articles due to some e-mail which leads me to believe that my original postings failed. Use the "n" key if you've already read them. Well, it was a long time coming, but here is the summary of responses to my posting on female sexuality in sf/fantasy. The responses were not numerous (25), but were extremely interesting in that a lot of them were from some of the most thoughtful net posters. They also exhibited a wide geographical origin: United Kingdom, Sweden, El Salvador, Australia, and of course, the United States. As no one requested anonymity, I've included login names with quotes. CAUTION, I found out you can't infer gender by login handle. Several contributers revealed their sexual orientation, but I feel it would be a violation of net ethics to do that in this summary, so I've tried to keep that confidential. I've also limited the quotes to the first three questions. Questions 4-7 were sort of ho-hum to the responders and by and large a matter of indifference. So in the interest of brevity, I'll assume the same attitude. Also, due to length, I'm going to post the responses in three seperate postings. Thanks to all for some interesting correspondence. Enjoy. I did. >Subject: Women in sf/fantasy > There has been a great deal of discussion/debate in this group >and others about feminist Science Fiction writers, and strong >female protaganists created by authors of either gender. As I find >the whole subject of human sexuality fascinating, I have followed >the discussion and read many of the authors mentioned such as Russ, >Bradley, Lynn, etc. I must say that I have enjoyed each of their >works very much. But it seems that a euphemism for "strong female >protaganist" in their works, and in the various postings, is >"Lesbian Protaganist" or "Bisexual Protaganist". > OK. That doesn't bother me because some of the most interesting >and intelligent women I have known in my life have been lesbian, or >bi. I personally feel that a women's sexual preferences are part >of her psyche, and immaterial (unless she's a sexual partner of >mine) to our rapport. > However, I seem to be finding women in science fiction more and >more (also in general fiction) who are bi/gay. And sometimes >unexpectedly by non-feminist writers. This gives one pause, and I >would like to pose some questions to the readers of this group(s). >1. Is this perceived by the majority as the future of female > sexuality? >2. Is this merely a reflection of todays "Bisexual Chic"? >3. Can a female protaganist be physically/mentally superior to men > without being bi/gay? >4. Would you, as a reader, prefer your heroines be gay? Bi? > Straight? >5. Would you, as an author, prefer your heroines be gay? Bi? > Straight? >6. Would you prefer male heros to be gay? Bi? Straight? >7. Will you continue to read novels about bi/gay female protaganists > even when plainly detailed on the cover? > > If this topic interests you, answer by e-mail and I will summarize >to the group(s) in about three or four weeks. **Is this [bisexuality] perceived as the future of female sexuality?** decvax!frog!wjr "Well, I wish I could see bisexuality as the general future,.... ...That is, bisexuality is, to me, normal in a way that heterosexuality/homosexuality isn't. I don't care whether a person is concave or convex, just whether SHe's good people. I wish I could believe that would someday become the norm, but I don't see it happening this week...." quint@caip(amqueue) "I do not know if one can even use the term `future of sexuality'. It seems an excessively artificial concept"..... ..."I dont think one can talk about the future of sexuality except in terms of the future of one individual's sexuality. It seems to me to be the next part of society to need a `breakthrough' in ideas and the freedom to talk about such things." ellen@reed "....The vast majority of the world is still quite homophobic; even if you are talking only about the US this is true. I hope it becomes a more accepted option, but at the moment I do not perceive it to be an inevitable progression for all women, only for certain individuals. Mary_Couse.osbunorth@caip "I don't think so. I believe that women probably have an easier time being bi- than men do, but most of the women I've known who call themselves bi have a much stronger leaning towards being gay." ccrdave@vega "I don't like any bi/gay stuff. I prefer logical, intelligent characters of all races, colors, planets of origon, etc., but I just don't like `that sick stuff.' I think a woman can be intelligent and straight. Just work at it. chuck@purdue "No. I think lesbians (and gay men) are appearing more in literature simply because they are becoming more visible in our society. Homosexuality is no longer something which simply isn't mentioned in `polite society,' as it once was. Changes such as this in society are noticed by authors and become part of those authors' works. Personally, I do not expect society to accept lesbianism or bisexuality as `THE' female sexuality (at least not in the foreseeable future). Whether the authors beleive that this is `the future of female sexuality' or not I can't say." davidl@teklds "I doubt it. I think it's just a quick way for an author to label a female character as `not just an old-fashioned girl'". kay@warwick "Not necessarily. However, I imagine (and hope) that it will become increasingly easy for women (and men) to live happily with a non-hetero sexuality." flory@zaphod "I, for one, think it is the future of *human* sexuality." continued Hank Buurman Tektronix Inc. ihnp4!tektronix!tekla!hankb ------------------------------ From: teklds!hankb@caip.rutgers.edu (Hank Buurman) Subject: Women in sf/fantasy #2 Date: 11 Mar 86 15:29:32 GMT **Is this (female gay/bisexuality in sf/fantasy) merely a reflection of todays "Bisexual Chic"?** barb@oliveb "Yep. (The pendulum swings to an extreme before its influence can be felt in the middle.)" Mary_Couse.osbunorth@caip "Not merely, though I think that may be a large part of the picture. I will say that a lot of men seem to find bi-sexual activity on the part of women rather stimulating - open any issue of Penthouse if you doubt this." davidl@teklds "Perhaps. Also, many men are turned on by lesbians, paradoxical as that may seem. Even Playboy (the most conservative of America's skin-pix mags) has had somewhat explicit pictures of lesbian sex." ellen@reed "Good grief. I certainly hope not. It is unfortunate that many lesbians now coming out are accused of succumbing to "bisexual chic," but I think it is more a reflection of increased awareness of bisexuality on the part of authors and audiences, not necessarily increased popularity." kay@warwick "Possibly. I hear people say that they consider bisexuality to be "trendy", to be a "soft option" (for gay people who don't want to come out as gay), but I'm not sure how much those statements reflect the existence of a real "bisexual chic", as opposed to those people's apprehensions about bisexuality." li@uw-vlsi "I think that, at this moment, people are just discovering that side of sexuality and all the following developments that go with them. I think that it may be a trend, as in trendy, but I think that it will slow up eventually; but at the moment authors are exploring the possibilities." **Can a female protaganist be physically/mentally superior to men without being bi/gay?** quint@caip "I imagine it is possible. I don't usually notice the sexuality of the protagonist unless I am looking for it... I dont worry about those things. Some authors seem to slap you in the face with it... Elizabeth Lynn for example... her collection "The Woman Who Loved The Moon" was the first book I ever really noticed that the protagonist was bi/gay, and I remember wondering "why should it make a difference?" The fact is, it doesn't if it isn't made obvious... I never batted an eye when Lythande (from Thieves' World) wandered off with a girl. I think part of the cause of this is that many of the obvious role models for female protagonists in modern society have been bi/gay... especially in the literary fields. The 'strong' women definitely have female lovers, whether or not that is their primary orientation. (from what I have heard about men in the publishing/literary fields, it is probably because they can't find anyone decent.)" kay@warwick "In my opinion, certainly! To me, the question (and I'm not getting at you here) is about as meaningful as `Can a female protagonist be ... superior to men without having blue eyes?'" ellen@reed "It's difficult, I think. However, it can be done; witness C.L. Moore's Jirel of Joiry stories, Gilman's Herland novels, Anne McCaffrey's Killashandra and Helva, and some of the Zelazny heroines. I think it's much harder to write heterosexual strong women at this point in time, since so much of sexuality relates to a conquest metaphor." chk@purdue "Yes. However, I think that certain authors do not know this. As a side note, it may also be that editors/copyreaders/whoever think that strong, straight women would not be accepted by the readers (that's us, gang). If so, this would put a lot of pressure on writers to make their heroines bi/gay/androgynous." Mary_Couse.osbunorth@caip "I certainly hope so!! Look at "Clan of the Cave Bear" and "Valley of the Horses" for a wonderfully strong, straight female character. There may be a few other problems with these books, but the main female character is strongly drawn and quite straight." davidl@teklds "Of course (in my opinion). Example: Mary Lou Retton manages to be an athletic superstar and a symbol of down-home femininity. However, the question is weighted. The phrase "superior to men" implies that ALL men are inferior to this protagonist. A woman who considers herself "superior to (all) men" would be very likely to become bi/gay, or at least misanthropic." flory@zaphod "This is obviously a flawed generality but widely held nevertheless." Continued Hank Buurman Tektronix Inc. ihnp4!tektronix!tekla!hankb ------------------------------ From: teklds!hankb@caip.rutgers.edu (Hank Buurman) Subject: Women in sf/fantasy #3 Date: 11 Mar 86 15:36:57 GMT **General comments of interest.** barb@oliveb "..I was irritated by Elizabeth Lynn's work, because I felt she was beating me over the head with her gay is ok characters. Personally, I DON'T CARE! It was not integral to the plot -- let the story tell itself, don't PROVE into the ground an aside point." >7. Will you continue to read novels about bi/gay female protaganists > even when plainly detailed on the cover? davidl@teklds "Yes. Actually, I think the whole idea of labeling the type of sex in the book can, if taken to extremes, lead to silly labels like this: WARNING Contains descriptions of sexual activities [] Heterosexual [] Homosexual [] Interracial [] Interspecies [] Oral [] Anal [] Bestiality [] Bondage [] Sadism [] Masochism [] Fetishism [] Voyeurism [] [] If you are offended by any of the acts indicated by checked boxes, do not purchase this book. :-) I'm sure that some people out there would even consider this label offensive. I think that there's someone bound to be offended by ANYTHING you can put in a book, and it's not the publisher's responsibility to explain exactly what's in each book. That's what reviewers are for. There are even specialized reviewers in publications directed to parents and conservative people, dedicated to pointing out material these people might find offensive (presumably so they can avoid it). Not afraid to sign my name, but with tongue firmly implanted in cheek: [ommitted] ellen@reed **Would you, as a reader, prefer your heroines be gay? Bi? Straight?** "I prefer that the possibility of alternate sexuality exist. However, I do not need the heroine to *have* an active sexual life in order to enjoy a book. Since there are rather more strong bi/gay heroines, I often end up reading about them. That's perfectly fine. What I *really* hate is heroines like Heinlein's who start out strong and end up clinging and screaming. What a waste of a good character." jody@inuxd "The female protagonist, I would like is well educated but not a brain, is straight but not victumized by men nor having casual sex here and there. She is motivated but has to work around the system in some way-- creatively (sex is out too boring). In a sense a normal female. Well normal may not be a good work--what is normal?? But nothing special about her except her own personality, that way when she does something in the story it really seems wonderful. I guess it is because I think gee maybe I could be like that one day...or... I will never be superwoman if for no other reason then I am to small in stacher, and I can not believe in a universe that would make unfeminine females." [login name ommitted. -ed.] >5. Would you, as an author, prefer your heroines be gay? Bi? > Straight? "This is tricky. I'm a male bisexual author: as such, I'm exposed to many facets of women's sexuality: I may sleep with straight/bi women; I raise my consciousness with women of all preferences; and so on. However, I'm not a woman: this (I find) makes writing about the intimate (not necessarily *sexually* intimate) experiences of women difficult. It's not very often, therefore, that I write about them (though I'm doing so increasingly), and not because of any separatist feeling." li@fluke "Interesting article. As for most of the questions, I'll give the simple answer "It depends on the character." Just as I would withhold judging a person if I were just given their sexual preference. There is a lot of fascination with the complexities involved with sex of any kind, and the twist of bi- or homo- sexuality is sometimes fun and filled with all the connotations of the words. But I really don't think that a woman has to be bi- or lesbian just because she is stonger mentally or physically than a lot of men." and ...."I think that, at this moment, people are just discovering that side of sexuality and all the following developments that go with them. I think that it may be a trend, as in trendy, but I think that it will slow up eventually; but at the moment authors are exploring the possibilities." My deepest thanks to: STella Calvert Anne Marie Quint Barb Jernigan Chuck Koelbel Mary Couse David D. Levine Ellen Eades Liralen Li Charlie Sorsby Trevor K. Flory And other contributers whom I was unable to identify. Shalom Hank Buurman Hank Buurman Tektronix Inc. ihnp4!tektronix!tekla!hankb *===============================================================* *"In each of us that flaming column, carrying away the lives of * * seven valiant persons, left a deep pain in the soul." -Pravda * *===============================================================* ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Mar 86 1028-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #43 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 18 Mar 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 43 Today's Topics: Books - Keeping Books, Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Worldcon '86 & Harper's Article on SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Keeping books Date: 10 Mar 86 20:36:24 GMT duane@anasazi.UUCP (Duane Morse) writes: >I give this book 3.0 stars (very good). I don't hesitate to >recommend it to others to read, but it's not a book I'd keep >permanently. Interesting. I keep permanently any book that I can read without getting sick. This means that there are books I consider very bad, that I don't hesitate to point out to others as something to be avoided, but that I nevertheless keep a copy of. Frank Adams Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka ------------------------------ From: acf4!percus@caip.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus) Subject: Re: DOCTOR WHO: PERI REPLACED!! Date: 12 Mar 86 20:24:00 GMT > Since the last season of Doctor Who was accused by certain > factions of being too violent and sexually exploitive... Well, I don't know. Personally, the chemistry between Sarah Jane Smith and The Doctor always convinced me that there was something else going on inside the TARDIS :-) A. G. Percus (ARPA) percus@acf4 (NYU) percus.acf4 (UUCP) ...{allegra!ihnp4!seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus ------------------------------ From: acf4!percus@caip.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus) Subject: Re: Dr Who and Peri Date: 12 Mar 86 20:21:00 GMT > I just saw my first episode with Peri (this weekend). It had > Colin Baker as the Dr, and took place on Varos (previously a > prison planet? complete with televised punishments and > executions!). I don't know if it was a lack of chemistry, poor > script, or what; but, I was negatively impressed with "Peri". I > am willing, however, to wait and watch more episodes to see how > (if?) her character develops into something other than a nagging, > simpering bowl of jello. I don't blame you for being so negatively impressed. The fact is, no, her character is never anything but a bowl of jello (I'm glad she's being written out). A. G. Percus (ARPA) percus@acf4 (NYU) percus.acf4 (UUCP) ...{allegra!ihnp4!seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus ------------------------------ From: eneevax!phaedrus@caip.rutgers.edu (Praveen Kumar) Subject: Re: Worldcon '86 Date: 13 Mar 86 14:55:02 GMT The address for the worldcon is: CONFEDERATION Att: Suite 1986, 3277 Roswell Road Atlanta, GA 30305 praveen phaedrus@eneevax.umd.edu or {seismo,allegra}!umcp-cs!eneevax!phaedrus ------------------------------ Date: Wed 12 Mar 86 09:07:05-PST From: Steve Dennett Subject: Harper's Article on SF Folks, Someone previously mentioned this article. I've included below some excerpts, but encourage you all to read the entire article. It seems to provide a good example of the "lit crit" view of SF. Hopefully these excerpts will stimulate some good discussion here on SF-LOVERS. (Please note that I DO NOT SHARE THIS AUTHOR'S VIEWS, so don't direct your flames at me. Thanks.) Steve Dennett [ Excerpts from "Harpers" magazine October 1985 ] The Temple of Boredom Science fiction, no future by Luc Sante Science fiction has been invading daily life for a number of years, but recently it has become pandemic. That is because it is increasingly hard to distinguish between real and imaginary technology. ...Technology has long been science fiction's conceit; now it is a conceit in real life as well. ...Science fiction held out to imaginative writers the lure of complete license in the pursuit of subject matter. No longer would fiction be restricted to a set of variations upon existing themes; it would be released from drudgery and repetition, from the hearth and the battlefield, from the abject deeds of mere humans. fiction henceforth would be allowed to fly unimpeded into infinite realms, far from the miseries of daily life. It is hard, a century or so later, to recall science fiction's original promise. . . Rather than inspiring liberty, science fiction has merely generated a new set of conventions. instead of drawing any body onward, these conventions have led inward, to minutely embroidered variations on earlier works; sideways, to procrastination and sloth (as when science fiction disposes of social issues by resolving them in impossible conditions); and backward, to nostalgia and escapism (as when it pretends that the present never occurred). Conventions, of course, are attributes of all literary genres, and it seems pointless to fault a genre merely for being a genre. What makes science fiction different from other genres is the hubris of its intention, which is nothing less than to depict the future, and the impossible. That it usually delivers pedestrian silliness is therefore thrown into much greater relief. Like modern technology, science fiction relies on mystification to disguise the fact that it is continually retailing the same product. ( . . . ) Science fiction has become a dead zone useful for dumping space travel, extraterrestrials, weird inventions, time warps, extrasensory perception, biological mutations, the morals of intelligent machines, and anything else that would be of genuine scientific interest were it not fictional. This material is handled with techniques derived from allegory and satire, taking off principally from the "what if" angle, which has become the cornerstone of the genre. The distinction is that allegory and satire are usually designed to provoke action, whereas science fiction is intended to encourage speculation for its own sake. The categories are frequently confused, as when historians of science fiction attempt to enlist Plato's Republic or More's Utopia as forerunners. Not every deviation from realism qualifies as science fiction: myths, fairy tales, visionary tracts, and surrealist narratives are not science fiction. fantasy, although it shares authors, publishers, and readers with science fiction, is a species of medieval or paleolithic western. It is not science fiction. Kafka's "The Trial" is not science fiction, and neither is Orwell's 1984, although this last claim is subject to dispute. Nor does science fiction exclude humor, but a major component of humor is irrationality, a quality feared by science fiction. Within the terms of the genre, everything must adhere to a rigorous schema. Science fiction cannot bear to leave its conundrums elegantly unresolved. Its task is to literalize, add mass, and seek a convincing solution, no matter how extravagant or dull. Science fictioneers are addicted to a form of closure, by which internal consistency is achieved at the cost of absurdity. If humans shuttle back and forth through time like commuters on the subway, the mechanism of their travel must be accounted for in a consistent and "plausible" way. If aliens are shaped like hour glasses and exhale chlorine, their physiology must be explained in terrestrial terms. Science is not usually considered a deterrent to the spirit of invention, so the fact that it can be invoked to deadening effect in a purely literary matter is a bit surprising. But science fiction's fear of instinct and desire for respectability mark its origins in the nineteenth-century bourgeoisie, a milieu famous for using science as a bludgeon. ( . . . ) If Science fiction today can be said to show a trend, it is a retrograde trend, serving up planets ever more distant and futures increasingly remote. The fear of nuclear holocaust has become so pervasive that it seems best simply to allude to the destruction of the planet, long ago, while tracing the destinies of escapees in their new galactic neighborhoods. The few novels that treat atomic disaster as a more recent experience tend to push a dubious survivalist line, which stops just short of wishing for a holocaust that will force us back to the frontier, where men were men. Russell Hoban's Riddley Walker is a significant exception. Set in a distant time when humanity is just regaining technology, history, and self-consciousness long after nuclear devastation, it is written in a pidgin English that creates a remarkable dramatic irony . . . Hoban convincingly portrays a new Dark Ages with a cryptic mythology drawn from the present. His implication of cyclical recurrence is thoroughly chilling. More representative is Charles Whitmore's "Winter's Daughter", which, while commendably avoiding the racist, sexist, and brutalizing qualities of other survivalist works, settles for an Arcadian nostalgia that is hardly less dangerous. That the prospect of wholesale slaughter should occasion a yearning for the primitive should not surprise us. In troubled times, what could be more soothing than a feudal reverie in which the reader joins the warrior caste fantasy, with its reliance on magic as an escape from probability, sounds like the opposite of science fiction, but literary miscegenation abounds. Witness, for example, the success of Anne McCaffrey and her dragon series, of which Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern is the most recent installment. McCaffrey's fantasy land is simultaneously traditional (capes, swords, a lingo that resembles Cornish) and set on another planet. Life is simple, men are hairy-chested, women likewise, the physical world is malleable, and imaginary solutions can be magical, scientific, literary, or all of the above. Here is the ultimate escapism: the problems of one genre are solved by importing labor-saving devices from another. In this way, science fiction's original promise is fulfilled most literally and most ludicrously. The prophets of science fiction hoped to avoid traditional literary constraints and scullery service to the real world, but much of today's science fiction does little more than erect a structure of pure cotton candy where nothing is constant but the need for wish-fulfillment. The low pay meted out to science fiction writers in the past may have been responsible for some of the genre's woolier examples of logorrhea and vacuity, but today, in a booming market, there is no such excuse. The only explanations are haste and a contempt for the audience. John Varley's Demon, for example, displays all the hallmarks of word-processor style: short paragraphs, a rambling breeziness, a tendency to repeat background information, a general confusion about what occurred in earlier chapters. The plot is an indescribable mess, hopping genres at the author's whim: a group of Canadians and their centaur like allies battle zombies who enact scenes from Hollywood movies at the command of a goddess who is both an entire planet and a giant facsimile of Marilyn Monroe . . . The net result is much like that of pouring all one's paints into a single container: a uniform shit-brown. But the old values are not entirely dead, as is evidenced by the Hogan book, "Code of the Lifemaker", mentioned earlier. Hogan, Who has been publishing for less than a decade, writes like a relic dredged up from a 1953 issue of Amazing Stories. This book spares nothing to achieve consistency: the pious robots have robot pets, drink crankcase oil, and dwell in houses made of vegetable matter. The gravity of their belief system is thrust on the reader via the nicknames the visiting humans assign to individual robots: Galileo, Leonardo, Moses. All this is assembled to make a firm non-point about religion and science and their need to coexist. Consistency, thoroughness, a sense of purpose, a moral conclusion, and a strong-jawed seriousness that persists right through all occasions for humor-these are among the qualities of classic science fiction Hogan exemplifies . . . All of this leaves the reader with a slightly compromised aftertaste, as if the hours spent with the book had been hours spent humoring a lunatic. Better, perhaps, that the author dispense with earthly correlatives entirely and drown the reader in an extragalactic miasma, as Samuel R. Delany does in "Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand". Delany, who began publishing in the 1960s, is the only major black writer of science fiction. His books are dense and thoughtful, if perhaps a shade overwritten, as his titles might suggest "Driftglass", "Time Considered as a Helix of Semiprecious Stones"). . . Delany has a flair for the alien, and is quite adept at convincingly rendering the whole of distant societies. But he is sometimes hard on the reader, who must spend hours deliberating over the probable sexes of characters in a society where everyone is referred to as "she," regardless of gender, unless he/she becomes a sexual object, and thus becomes"he." After a few hundred pages, however, the insistence has a hypnotic effect, and the conceits take on flesh. Then, near the end, the book reveals itself as a doomed-love tale with a very long set up. The set-up is so skillful and the denouement so pat that the book seems abruptly to fall off a cliff. It is as though the book had ended with "and then I woke up." The love story is a homosexual one, which ought to be either incidental or boldly announced; but instead the doom, the pat ending, and even the lengthy mise-en-scene seem like camouflage slathered on out of embarrassment. This is an example of science fiction's accustomed approach to a subject of burning concern--to the author or to society at large: put it aboard a rocket ship and transport it eons away where it can be detonated safely. Stanislaw Lem's His Master's Voice (1968) sets itself a task and does not shirk it. On the other hand, it qualifies as a science fiction novel only if the term is taken literally. This tale of conflict among scientists occupied in deciphering what may or may not be a message from an extraterrestrial civilization is speculative in the most narrow sense. It takes common science fiction concerns (e.g., moral imperatives in the face of a possibly dangerous scientific breakthrough) and flattens them into realism. The hook (whether the"message" is genuine or not) is left unresolved. The contempt for the genre that Lem demonstrates in his essays (collected in "Microworlds", 1985) is here balanced by what he presumably considers a superior approach. But "His Master's Voice" is dull, relentlessly earth bound, and fanatically methodical. In short, it is an essay about science leavened with academic realism. The more recent books considered above span a wide range of ambition, literary merit, and moral responsibility, but they are all instantly forgettable. While it may be argued that a number of them were probably designed that way--as disposable printed fodder--it is unlikely that any of their authors would so readily spurn the chance to produce a title that might continue selling for a few decades. Science fiction, by relying on a tradition of mediocrity, has effectively sealed itself off from literature, and, incidentally, from real concerns. From within, science fiction exudes the humid vapor of male prepubescence. The cult like ferocity of science fiction fandom serves only to cultivate what is most sickly and stunted about the genre. Meanwhile, in the outside world, science fiction finds work as a commercial fetish, substituting for religion. Consumers are shown a field of stars blazoned with the device "Beyond!" When associated with breakfast cereal or pickup trucks, the image of the cosmos suggests masculine adventure while promising oblivion. Anything can and does get sold this way. Nevertheless, the double seduction of bravado and of the void can most effectively be used to sell the prospect of annihilation. Perhaps it is not so much that science fiction has compromised itself as that time has caught up with it. Its once vast terrain has been thoroughly plundered; what is left is detritus, exploitable but degraded. Science and fiction can both be found elsewhere; the future, though, must still be invented. Harpers, October 1985 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Mar 86 0832-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #44 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 19 Mar 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 44 Today's Topics: Books - Book Request, Films - Videodrome & Brazil, Magazines - Summary of Reviews, Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide (2 msgs), Television - Blake's 7 & Amazing Stories & Dr. Who, Miscellaneous - Hugo Nomination & Worldcon '86 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: orstcs!jamesp@caip.rutgers.edu (jamesp) Subject: Merchant book wanted Date: 11 Mar 86 04:59:00 GMT Can anybody suggest a novel or collection about life as a Interstellar Merchant? I am a Traveller enthusiast and want to find ideas for a gaming session. Thanks in advance! James Perkins tektronix!orstcs!jamesp ------------------------------ From: csvsj@ucbopal.BERKELEY.EDU (Steve Jacobson) Subject: Re: BRAZIL (really Videodrome and Smile) Date: 13 Mar 86 05:19:00 GMT Brazil is truly a great film; when positive reviews refer to Smile (M. Leeper) and Videodrome (sorry.. I forget who), I say YES. I wanna see some Videodrome discussion. I hope Kronenberg abandons the direction he took on DeadZone and returns to his earlier intensity. Videodrome was helluv more Philip Dick-like than Bladerunner! ...ucbvax!opal!csvsj ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 1986 06:44-PST Subject: Re: Brazil From: WILBUR@OFFICE-2.ARPA I saw the movie Brazil and as I work for the government, I found myself laughing at some of the scenes. It is not a movie that will appeal to the masses. It would probably take seeing it several times to pick up on all the nuances. Here are some words that chased through my mind after seeing it. Satire, Walter Mitty, fantasy. Let's hear from anyone else who saw it. I did not pick up on the symbolism of the name Brazil. Who did? Faye (Wilbur@Office-2) ------------------------------ From: slu70!guy@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: SF Magazine summary Date: 11 Mar 86 15:08:01 GMT Enclosed is a lightly edited and very belated summary of the responses I received to my request for information on SF magazines. Thanks to all who replied. Guy M. Smith I have been subscribing to STARLOG since its beginning. They are very current-media oriented. They feature articles and news from SF and all its sub-genres from fantasy to spy movies. Jim Deacon I have been getting Analog and Fantasy and Science Fiction for nearly 20 years. F&SF is much more literate, as a rule, and more stylistically experimental, while Analog is hard science almost all the way. I find that a really good Analog story (one every several issues) hits closer to home for me than almost all F&SF stories, while the average F&SF story is more readable. Analog's politics tend to be more conservative, but the science in the stories seldom grates against reality. F&SF includes Isaac Asimov's science column every month, while Analog has a "science fact" article about something frontier, be it astronomy, physics, psi, or anything. F&SF used to have good cartoons by Gahan Wilson, but he left, and they have usually unfunny cartoons now. Analog has thoughtful editorials, but the authors are sort of anonymous (except for the one which is featured in that month's "Biolog"), while F&SF usually has a 2-sentence blurb at the beginning of each story with a piece of information. On the whole, I find that when I need to relax, I can always settle down with one of these magazines (though F&SF tends to get read faster than Analog), even when I don't feel like getting into an SF novel. There is seldom any reference to the current magazines in sf-lovers; maybe a review of each issue with capsule subject (NOT plot) descriptions could be posted. Doug Mink I used to read Fantasy & Science Fiction but over the last couple of years the magazine has gone to too many "ghost" stories for my taste. I switched over to Analog and love it! David Purks I currently subscribe to both Analog and Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine. Analog runs science fact articles and tends toward hard SF. I have a feeling that they are sometimes a little desperate for material, as in order to remain completely in the realm of hard SF, they have to take some pretty bad stories. When they run a good one, though, it's a doozy. On the whole, their record has been pretty good, with only four or five of what I would consider absolute clinkers over the four years or so in which I've subscribed. Asimov's publishes hard, medium, and soft SF, and sometimes verges on fantasy and mainstream. Their interest is in the quality story, and the editor does not limit the stories to one particular sub-genre of SF. As a result, the stories are of overall better quality than those in Analog. I have also subscribed to Asimov's for about four years, and have enjoyed it tremendously. If you only have funds in the budget for one of these, I'd recommend Asimov's for its overall higher story quality, as long as you're not limited to one "flavor" of SF. Mary Shurtleff ....decvax!ittatc!bunker!bunkerb!mary Okay, I'll bite. I read two SF magazines - Asimov's and Analog. I can demonstrate which I prefer easily; Asimov's is read within three days of its receipt, but I'm usually a month or two behind on Analogs. Asimov's contains a much broader range of stories. Please note, by the way, that Asimov's has just switched editors from Shawna McCarthy (sp?) to Gardner Dozois, and I've only seen one Dozois issue. Analog tends a lot more toward `hard' high tech sf. Fantasy stories show up in Asimov's, but rarely in Analog. I enjoy them both, but if I was going to read only one, it would definitely be Asimov's. Karl M. Owen My husband has a preference for *Analog* -- the stories are more into 'hard Science Fiction', and he feels the quality is generally better than *Asimov's* and *Fantasy and Science Fiction*. Barb I read _Analog_ and _Isaac_Asimov's_Science_Fiction_ Magazine. _Analog_'s personality has remained very stable over the years. The magazine's contents are generally "hard science fiction," with not much literary or artistic ambition beyond that of telling a story briskly and clearly. IASFM's stories are sometimes "fantasy," are more likely than _Analog_ to have female protagonists, and are more likely than _Analog_ to end tragically. IASFM's quality is more variable; sometimes great, sometimes a bummer. _Analog_ is relatively predictable, and if you have liked it before you will probably like it now. If not, not. Christopher J. Henrich ------------------------------ From: ur-tut!aptr@caip.rutgers.edu (The Wumpus) Subject: Re: Re.: Wanted: Hitchhiker's Guide Recordings Date: 14 Mar 86 03:59:51 GMT When talking about the radio version of HHGtG it is important to consider which radio version, the original ones broadcast, or the ones broadcasts on BBC for the world (including the USA version). The scripts for the show, which are available in paper back, describe the different versions of the show, and also show in the text what was not released. The book also includes interesting anecdotes about the series. (ie. If you thought yourself extremely clever for discovering that 6*9 = 42 in base 13 and decided that there was some great significance to that number, well, in a couple of words, your wrong. 6 and 9 are just two random numbers picked to not come out to 42 in base ten, at least that is what the book says.) The Wumpus ------------------------------ From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) Subject: Hitchhiker's nitpicking Date: 14 Mar 86 20:58:02 GMT For those who don't like nit-picking and a little humor, skip this. Let us examine the question found by the caveman back on old Earth: "What do you get if you multiply six by nine" A while ago, I noticed that you can't get this from a normal set of scrabble tiles, as you don't have four y's. Did Douglass Adams ever attempt to explain this? I never found a reason. Send me your facts, and I will summarize later. Jonathan D. Trudel arpa: trudel@blue.rutgers.edu uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4}!topaz!blue!trudel ------------------------------ From: aplvax!mae@caip.rutgers.edu (Mary Anne Espenshade) Subject: Re: Blake's 7 info Date: 12 Mar 86 22:22:43 GMT To answer the Blake's 7 questions from "ix312@sdcc6.UUCP" (could you tell us your real name, ix312, or were these postings directly from a machine?): Terry Nation, creator of the Daleks on Doctor Who, created Blake's 7 for the BBC. It ran for 4 13 episode seasons (1978-1981) before ending with a bang (so to speak). Complete information and episode guide are available in a book called The Blake's 7 Programme Guide, by Tony Attwood. Terry Nation wrote all of the first 13 episodes and several others after that, a large portion of the others were written by Chris Boucher. Well known SF author Tanith Lee wrote two episodes. Terry Nation specifically copied some things from Star Trek, one of his favorite shows - look in particular at the logo in the opening credits. > Anyway, what I like to know is if anyone out there knows the show > and can give me some information on it, such as who are these > people? The original 7 are, in the view of the Terran Federation, the most dangerous escaped criminals and terrorists running loose in the galaxy: Roj Blake - convicted child molestor Kerr Avon - convicted embezzler Vila Restal - convicted thief Jenna Stannis - convicted smuggler Oleg Gan - convicted murderer Cally - alien spy Zen - central computer of the Liberator Actually, the Federation is an extremely corrupt government, controlling planetary populations with drugs and police-state tactics. Blake was a leader of those rebeling against this government, the charges against him were trumped up in order to discredit him and sentence him to exile on the prison planet Cygnus Alpha. > how did they get together? and why? Blake meets Avon, Vila, Jenna and Gan on route to Cygnus Alpha. The Liberator is an alien ship found abandoned. When guards from the prison transport are killed trying to board it, expendable prisoners are sent instead - Blake, Avon and Jenna. The ship accepts them as its new crew and they escape, following the prison ship to Cygnus Alpha to rescue Vila and Gan. They meet Cally during their first attack on a Federation installation. She was the only survivor of a previous sabotage attempt. > Just what is the basic plot line and any background on the > characters. (I was able to figure out that Blake and his crew are > the good guys.) Blake and his crew are freedom fighters, aka terrorists. They are only "the good guys" because the federation is so bad. Avon and Vila, at least, were rightly convicted criminals. > Also, Blake and his crew only total to six, who is number 7? Zen, the Liberator's sentient computer, is the seventh. But don't let the number bother you, the show is Avon's 5 by the time it's over. This is British TV, they are allowed to kill main characters (though this show carries it to somewhat of an extreme :-)). And just think who confused you would be if you had happened on a 3rd or 4th series episode first - Blake isn't even in those. Mary Anne Espenshade ...!{allegra, seismo}!umcp-cs!aplcen!aplvax!mae ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: AMAZING STORIES Date: 13 Mar 86 14:17:30 GMT > From: drivax!holloway (Bruce Holloway) > My wife and I stopped watching Amazing Stories after the nth story > about misunderstood kids in various forms and flavours. We prefer > more adult flavours in our anthologies, like Twilight Zone.... > > A case in point: Both series did "Three Wishes" sketches. In the > Amazing Stories version, three kids catch a leprechaun who grants > them three wishes, one each. They wish for the ability to see > through girl's clothing, the ability to control their parents, and > a "state-of-the-art" car. Very pedestrian, very predictable. I hate to tell you this, but the Leprechaun episode described above was on TWLIGHT ZONE, not AMAZING STORIES. I'm positive about this, because I stopped watching AS after about the first half-dozen shows, but have seen most of the TZ's, and this episode was on last month sometime. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_ajpo@caip.rutgers.edu (Adric of Alzarius) Subject: Re: Companions of Dr. Who written out. Date: 13 Mar 86 20:26:20 GMT > From: roberts%forty2.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM > Most faithful of Dr. Who's companions, K9, was also written out of > the show, to much wailing and gnashing of teeth by true Dr. Who > fans everywhere Because K9 had such a large following, the BBC started a Dr.Who spin-off which starred K9 and Elisabeth Sladen as Sarah Jane Smith called "K9 and Company." This show didn't have quite the following that the BBC hoped it would. This show only lasted one season in England. I've seen one episode of it and it didn't seem to have the "pizazz" (sp) that Dr.Who had. K9 and Sarah Jane didn't seem to mix too well. That's my opinion. I would like to hear others. Joseph P. Ogulin UUCP: {seismo!umcp-cs, ihnp4!whuxcc, allegra!hopkins} !jhunix!ins_ajpo ARPA: ins_ajpo%jhunix.BITNET@wiscvm.WISC.EDU BITNET: INS_AJPO@JHUVMS P99I1798@JHUVM CSNET: ins_ajpo@jhunix.CSNET ------------------------------ From: ringwld!jmturn%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa Date: Monday, 17 Mar 1986 21:46-EST Subject: Hugo? As those of you who were at Boskone may have heard, there is some interest in getting SF-LOVERS on the Hugo ballot this year. Because of the rules, SFL is not eligible as a fanzine, nor is Saul eligible as fanzine editor. Therefore, can I suggest: Saul Jaffe for Best Professional Editor Since the average nominating number for pro-editor is about 60-70 ballots, if even a small number of SF-LOVERS readers nominate, we can get Saul on the ballot. This is not only a good hack but a nice way to recognize Saul, who puts in a lot of his own time for no tangible returns. To nominate, you must be a member of the 1986 Worldcon. If you're not, it's really too late to do much. If you are, and you have yet to send in your nominations sheet, think strongly about placing Saul's name on your list. Remember, the deadline is coming up soon. [Moderator's Note: I have been considering this since we discussed it at Boskone. I feel that while the atmosphere regarding SF-LOVERS has changed to the point where we can discuss it more openly than in the past, it has not changed sufficiently for world knowledge. Remember, the Hugos are covered by the press and given a lot more publicity than a discussion group at Boskone. Getting involved with the Hugo's may be a politically bad move and can endanger the existence of SF-LOVERS. Also, several people (like myself) could come under federal investigation. I certainly can't stop you from making the nomination and I am also not totally for or against the idea. If it happens, it happens. But, I certainly think you should consider carefully the possible ramifications before you send in your nomination ballot. Saul] ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_acss@caip.rutgers.edu (C Sue Shambaugh) Subject: Re: Worldcon '86 Date: 13 Mar 86 22:44:58 GMT Has *ANYBODY* heard *ANYTHING* from WorldCon (ConFederation) besides those always-late Progress Reports? I have been having MUCH difficulty trying to get an advance masquerade registration form, and the maximum is 100 people -- due to their imcompetence, I may get closed out, and I wrote in *November*, for crying out loud! (YES, I wrote again, and YES they got an SASE each time -- waste of stamps...) If anyone has an advance registration form, or knows what info they want sent instead, please contact me via e-mail. I have the Con address, and the masquerade people's address, but it isn't doing me much good since they DON'T ANSWER ME. Thanks in advance for any/all help, Sue Shambaugh ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Mar 86 0908-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #45 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 19 Mar 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 45 Today's Topics: Books - Card & Farmer & Herbert & O'Donnell & Sheckley & Wolfe & Survey & Book Request Answered & Story Request & Bad Books, Films - The Terrible Clock Man, Magazines - Locus Subscription Info, Television - Blake's 7 & Star Trek ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jimb@ism780 Subject: Re: Wolfe the best? Date: 12 Mar 86 21:10:00 GMT > (responding to article on Gene Wolfe) > I would recommend anything by Orson Scott Card. He has mainly > been published in short story form but has a few very good novels > out. Look for: > > Enders Game > Planet of Solitude (I think) > Back Issues of OMNI mag > (Includes the Classic _Unaccompanied_Sonata_) > > He is very close to being on Wolfe's level and may very well > surpass him over time, considering how short a time he has been > writing (5 years?). A vehement demur here. Comparing Card to Wolfe is like comparing Tim Zahn to Robert Heinlein, Tim Powers to Ursula LeGuin, SKZB to vintage Zelazny, etc. They're passable, good even. Show promise of putting it all together, whether on a revolutionary basis (Zahn) or evolutionary (Powers & SKZB). But as far as being anywhere near close right now, I think not. ENDER'S GAME was a better than average book and probably will wind up on this year's Hugo ballot and may win the Nebula. But it is not a heads-above-the-field work that the Wolfe was, or that Brin's was. It is good, fast-paced space opera augmented with much-better-than-usual psychological insights, but basically, that's it. Jim Brunet hplabs/hao/ico/ism780 ihnp4/ima/ism780 sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ism780C/ism780 ------------------------------ From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert) Subject: **Booklist** Philip Jose Farmer Books (Revised) Date: 12 Mar 86 03:31:54 GMT Corrections per Laurence Roberts, Bill Hsu, Randy Neff and myself. FARMER, PHILIP JOSE World of Tiers Series: The Maker of Universes The Gates of Creation A Private Cosmos Behind the Walls of Terra The Lavalite World Riverworld Series: To Your Scattered Bodies Go The Fabulous Riverboat The Dark Design The Magic Labyrinth Riverworld and Other Stories Gods of Riverworld River of Eternity Tarzan Alive (??) Other Novels: The Adventure of the Peerless Peer The Alley God A Barnstormer in Oz Blown The Book of Philip Jose Farmer The Cache Cache From Outer Space and the Celestial Blueprint The Classic Philip Jose Farmer Dare Dark is the Sun Dayworld Doc Savage: His Apocalyptic Life Down in the Black Gang Father to the Stars A Feast Unknown Flesh Flight to Opar Gate of Time The Grand Adventure Greatheart Silver The Green Odyssey Hadon of Ancient Opar Image of the Beast Inside-Outside Ironcastle Jesus on Mars The Lord of the Trees and The Mad Goblin Lord Tyger The Lovers Mother Was a Lovely Beast Night of Light The Other Log of Phileas Fogg: The Cosmic Truth Behind Jules Verne's Fiction The Purple Book River of Eternity Stations of the Nightmare The Stone God Awakens Strange Relations Tarzan Alive (Riverworld series??) Time's Last Gift Timestop Tongues of the Moon Traitor to the Living Two Hawks From Earth The Unreasoning Mask Venus on the Half-Shell (written as "Kilgore Trout") The Wind Whales of Ishmael A Woman A Day (aka Day of the Timestop; Timestop) ------------------------------ From: ecrcvax!snoopy@caip.rutgers.edu (Sebastian Schmitz) Subject: Frank Herberts "Heretics of Dune" Date: 12 Mar 86 12:53:59 GMT An aside: Frank Herbert is dead. He died almost 4 weeks ago I think of a heart failure at the age of 65, I think. This is a reply to the person (my memory has checksum errs) who had the "Tell me it isn't so !" subject line. I have just seen Frank Herberts "Heretics of Dune" at Ye Olde Local Booke Shoppe. This must be the fifth volume of the Dune Trilogy. Has anyone read it and is willing to post a review, either to me or this group ? Is the book worth reading ? Or should I forget it ? Its quite fat and thus it looks like it will have a major impact on my social life. Is it worth the effort ? Thanks, Seb ...\!mcvax\!unido\!ecrcvax\!snoopy ------------------------------ From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: CAVERNS by Kevin O'Donnell, Jr. (mild spoiler) Date: 13 Mar 86 15:20:53 GMT The jacket reads: "April 1, 2083. A gastropod sent to Earth by the Far Being Retzglaran swallows McGill Feighan, age 4 days, and studies him for 71.4 hours. At age 5, Feighan becomes a Flinger--able to travel the universe in a flicker and a flash--and one of the most endangered individuals in the Galaxy. And in the year 2100, McGill Feighan begins an unguided quest for the Far Being, source of his powers and his persecution. It is a journey that promises to send him to the far reaches of both experience and space..." The full title of the books is "The Journeys of McGill Feighan. Book I: Caverns". The jacket description is accurate but incomplete. One of the complications in McGill's life is that The Organization, a galaxy-wide crime syndicate, is curious as to why the Far Being took an interest in McGill, and it's almost a full-time job for McGill to remain at liberty. The book's very enjoyable. The characters are nicely portrayed, and the universe McGill finds himself in seems reasonable. The job of "Flinger" is quite interesting, and the author goes to some length to show how a person with a talent for teleportation must be extensively trained before the talent is particularly useful. I give the book 3.0 stars (very good) and look forward to others in the series. Duane Morse ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert) Subject: **Booklist** Robert Sheckley Books (Revised) Date: 12 Mar 86 16:59:27 GMT Latest correction by Lee Cochenour, David Eppstein and many others. SHECKLEY, ROBERT Mysteries: Calibre .50 Dead Run The Game of X (spy spoof) Live Gold (Special Agent X)(?) Time Limit White Death White Heat Science Fiction: After the Fall The Alchemical Marriage of Alistair Crompton Can You Feel Anything When I Do This? Citizen in Space Crompton Divided Dimension of Miracles Dramocles: An Intergalactic Soap Opera Futuropolis (sf art book edited by RS) Immortality, Inc. Is That What People Do? Journey Beyond Tomorrow (aka Journey of Joenes) Mindswap Notions: Unlimited Options People Trap Pilgrimage to Earth The Robot Who Looked Like Me Shards of Space The Status Civilization Store of Infinity Tenth Victim (aka Seventh Victim) Untouched by Human Hands The Worlds of Robert Sheckley ------------------------------ Date: 14-Mar-1986 1331 From: wood%hugo.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Celeste Wood) Subject: "funny words" in NOBS I'm posting because I have trouble getting through on usenet addresses a lot. Peter Kendell had a nice list of words from _Shadow... My vocabulary must be a bit different though, because some of the words you questioned I already knew. About 25 pages into the story -- when Severian is messing around in the graveyard there is a wonderfully picturesc sentence about the moon breaking out from behind the clouds and a shaft of light hitting the ground like and amschaftspand. (sp? I don't have my book to reference since I lent it out.) I didn't notice the word the first time I read through, but when I decided to hunt for some strange words I found it. I was unable to find this word in a dictionary. Can you find it in yours? Celeste Wood (nermal%wood@decwrl.dec) ------------------------------ From: unmvax!wampler@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Wampler) Subject: Favorite SF Books Date: 13 Mar 86 17:12:17 GMT This has likely been done before, but not too recently, and probably not in exactly this way. I'd like to see what people's favorite SF books are. I know I can't give just one book, so I've come up with the following categorizations: All Time Favorite: If you could pick just one, this is the "best" SF novel you've ever read. Favorite author: Who is your favorite SF writer? Hardest to put down: There are some books that you just can't put down until you're finished. This might be called the most exciting book you've read. Best with computers: Well, most of us use computers, so this one seems appropriate. Most interesting/unusual: Maybe not exciting or a classic, but has very unusual or interesting ideas. Best series: The best series of books by same author (e.g. Dune, Pern, etc.) Best written: Just good writing that would stand up to any classic in any type of literature. Other books: Any other standouts you want to mention for whatever reason. I have a collection of several hundred SF books, but I don't think I've covered all the ground. I find for the most part real people can tell me more than any review, so I'd like to hear just what net readers think are good books. I'm not expecting a list of "classics", just what YOU like. To get things started, here's my list: All Time Favorite: _Stand on Zanzibar_, John Brunner This category is hard, and next week I'd probably pick a different book, but I like this one because I fear it might be too accurate in its predictions (early 21st century). It is also very innovative in its writing style. Favorite author: Philip Jose Farmer Hardest to put down: Any of the Berserker series by Fred Saberhagen. Best with computers: _Oath of Fealty_, Larry Niven/Jerry Pournelle. I WANT a mental hookup to a computer like MILLIE, too! Most interesting/unusual: _The Crucible of Time_, John Brunner. The history of an intelligent life form evolved from plants. Best series: Riverworld - Philip Jose Farmer Best written: Most anything by Ursula K. LeGuin Other books: Titan series, John Varley; Known Space series, Larry Niven; Majipoor series, Robert Silverberg Dr. Bruce E. Wampler University of New Mexico, CS Dept. ..{ucbvax | seismo!gatech | ihnp4!lanl}!unmvax!wampler ------------------------------ From: norman@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Norman Ramsey) Subject: Re: Merchant book wanted Date: 13 Mar 86 18:05:47 GMT jamesp@orstcs.UUCP (jamesp) writes: >Can anybody suggest a novel or collection about life as a >Interstellar Merchant? I am a Traveller enthusiast and want to >find ideas for a gaming The canonical interstellar merchant series is the Nicholas van Rijn series by Poul Anderson. There are lots of titles; _Trader_to_the_Stars_ and _The_Man_Who_Counts_ both come to mind. They all seem to be of the "cunning old fat man [van Rijn] outwits gorgeous young hulk" variety. Norman Ramsey norman@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu ------------------------------ From: excalibur!210506860@caip.rutgers.edu (Wyle) Subject: "need the title of a soviet sf story" Date: 10 Mar 86 12:01:59 GMT Someone told me of a Soviet SF short story in which the story goes something like: Military researchers develop a practical telepathy helmet which allows minds to meld. They give commando teams these helmets. The commandos prove in war game scenarios how practical the helmet is. As the number of commandos increases, so does their combined intelligence, and their success in the war games. Finally, the Russians try giving 20 commandos helmets, and they stop playing the war game, reading poetry, smelling flowers etc. instead. Anyone know the name of the story, and where it was published? It was not in "Soviet Science Fiction" or "More Soviet SF." Thanx in advance. (Please respond by e-mail; don't post.) Mitch !ihnp4!psuvax1!vu-vlsi!excalibur!210506860 ------------------------------ From: cad!grady@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven Grady) Subject: bad bad books Date: 13 Mar 86 23:54:38 GMT In a Spider Robnson book I was reading a few weeks ago, he says in the introduction that one author made a bet about writing as bad a book as possible, and the public loved it. He continued these things, and the books are very successful. Have people heard this rumor? My first thought is that it would be John Norman's _Gor_ books.. Steven ...!ucbvax!grady ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 14 March 1986 14:55:54 EST From: Michael.Barton@henry.ece.cmu.edu Subject: an old scary sf film A friend of mine remembers being terrified as a very young child by a horror sf film titled (approx.) "The Terrible Clock Man". This was a bw film which must have been made prior to 1955 and apparently featured a character who could manipulate time (e.g. put you in the ice age). She would appreciate any information that anyone might have about this. thanks much mike barton mlb@henry.ece.cmu.edu ------------------------------ From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: locus magazine subscription info Date: 14 Mar 86 06:21:24 GMT I've had a few requests for the Locus subscription info after my comments on con lists. So, here it goes: Locus Magazine, P.O. Box 13305 Oakland, CA. 94661 (monthly, $24.00 a year) Locus is a semi-prozine designed to get information about the SF and Fantasy fields out to the serious reader or writers. It includes market info, publication schedules, book reviews, con lists (and reviews), lots of pictures of famous and not-so-famous people, some continuing columns including one by Richard Curtiss on SF from the agents point of view (one of the best places I've found for practical information on the business side of writing) and all sorts of stuff. If you're serious about reading or writing in the field, it is a good investment. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.ARPA FidoNet: 125/84 CompuServe: 73317,635 {decwrl,decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo,ucbvax}!sun!chuq ------------------------------ From: ecrcvax!snoopy@caip.rutgers.edu (Sebastian Schmitz) Subject: Re: Blake's 7, background info wanted Date: 12 Mar 86 11:47:47 GMT Number 7 is of course ORAK, the marvelous little computer with all the blinky lights. The plot is simple: nasty woman, Servelan, who is a servant to the "Federation" (something nasty like the Empire in Star Wars) always interferes with the rebels (a superset of Blakes 7). Personally I love Servelan. She's so cool and menacing and sexy. Bit of a praying mantis: you fall in love with her and then she bites your head off...(which one is another matter ;-)) She has a tendency to crop up from time to time, giving everyone headaches. Like JR Ewing, she is responsible for most of the nastiness that hits the crew. No matter what happens, she in there somewhere... Love, Seb ...\!mcvax\!unido\!ecrcvax\!snoopy ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!thornton@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC468) Subject: SPOCK'S BRAIN... Date: 13 Mar 86 14:57:25 GMT Spock's Brain was recently shown here. Whose fault was it? Was Star Trek getting hard up for stories? Was it the Frieberger factor? Was this why G.L.C. used the psuedonym "Lee Cronin"? As you may have guessed by now, I didn't like it, very few people did. Strangely enough, I remembered it as being a good episode from childhood days. Ahh memories. A fan turned to me and said, "I'm beginning to forget what a good Star Trek is like". I comforted it (the fan) with, "Well next is The Enterprise Incident". To anyone who has seen the third season recently; Will it improve? Is the last season of any series always the worst? Is that why it IS the last season? Andy T. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Mar 86 0929-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #46 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 19 Mar 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 46 Today's Topics: Books - Card & Kornbluth & Norton & Robinson & Sime/Gen, Magazines - The Worlds of IF, Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu (A Andrews) Subject: ORSON SCOTT CARD in Indianapolis/Inconjunction VI Date: 12 Mar 86 22:09:29 GMT Orson Scott Card and Michael Whelan (artist) will be the Guests of Honor at INCONJUNCTION VI, the annual SF convention to be held in Indianapolis, Indiana, July 4, 5, 6, 1986, at the Adam's Mark Hotel near the Airport. The convention will feature Mr. Card's "Secular Humanist Revival" as well as displays of Mr. Whelan's artworks. The Wet Khaftan Kontest, a musical comedy play, panels, gaming, etc., and a masquerade dance will ensure attendees of activities for three days. Further information will be posted if inquiries warrant. arlan andrews ------------------------------ From: kalash@ingres.berkeley.edu.ARPA (Joe Kalash) Subject: Re: **Booklist** C. M. Kornbluth Books Date: 15 Mar 86 05:06:05 GMT You missed these Kornbluth books (without Fred Pohl) Best SF Stories of Cyril M. Kornbluth [faber & faber] 1968 Half [Lion Books] 1953 (Jordan Park pseudonym) The Man of Cold Rages [Pyramid Books] 1958 (Jordan Park pseudonym) The Mindworm [Michael Joseph] 1955 The Naked Storm [Lion Books] 1952 (Simon Eisner pseudonym) Outpost Mars [Abelard] 1952 (Cyrill Judd pseudonym, with Judith Merril) Thirteen O'Clock [Dell] 1970 Valerie [Lion Books] 1953 (Jordan Park pseudonym) Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert) Subject: **Booklist** Andre Norton Books (VERY LONG COMPLETELY REVISED Subject: LIST) Date: 15 Mar 86 17:27:58 GMT Additions and corrections per Dave Tallman and Henry Chai (with special thanks to Henry Chai for his help in reorganizing and categorizing the various series and subseries) NORTON,ANDRE (pseud. Andrew North, Allen Weston, Mary Norton*) (born: Alice Mary Norton) * Henry Chai has looked up Mary Norton and says that she is a different person, others have told me that she is the same person. At this point I do not know! Astra (AT#) These series numbers are generally Blake Walker (BW#) the order in which the books should Drew Rennie (DR#) be read and reflect the sequence of Forerunner (FR#) sequels. One exception is the Simsa (SM#) High Hallack subseries of the Hosteen Storm (HS#) Witch World series: Janus (JA#) Lorens van Norreys (LV#) HH1 - HH3 Moon Singer (MS#) \ Murdoc Jern (MJ#) HH2 - HH4 -HH5 Ross Murdock (RM#) Shann Lantee (SL#) This information courtesy of Solar Queen (SQ#) Henry Chai, University of Toronto Star Ka'at (SK#) Note also, that the Witch World Witch World (WW#) series has been renumbered. High Hallack (HH#) Simon Tregarth & Family (ST#) & Miscellaneous: Android at Arms At Sword's Point (LV3) The Beast Master (HS1) The Book of Andre Norton (originally: The Many Worlds of Andre Norton) Breed to Come Bullard of the Space Patrol Caroline Catseye The Crossroads of Time (BW1) Crosstime Agent (BW2) (aka Quest Crosstime) The Crystal Gryphon (WW8)(HH2) Dark Piper Daybreak 2250 A.D. (originally: Star Man's Son) The Defiant Agents (RM3) Dragon Magic Dread Companion Exiles of the Stars (MS2) Eye of the Monster Follow the Drum Forerunner (FR2)(SM1) Forerunner Foray (FR1) Forerunner: the Second Venture (FR3)(SM2) Fur Magic Galactic Derelict (RM2) Garan the Eternal Gray Magic (aka Steel Magic) The Gryphon in Glory (WW13)(HH4) Here Abide Monsters High Sorcery Horn Crown (WW15) Huon of the Horn Ice Crown Iron Butterflies Iron Cage Island of the Lost (LV2) (aka Sword in Sheath) The Jargoon Pard (WW9)(HH3) Judgement on Janus (JA1) Key Out of Time (RM4) Knave of Dreams The Last Planet (originally: Star Rangers) Lavender-Green Magic Lord of Thunder (HS2) Lore of the Witch World (WW14) The Many Worlds of Andre Norton (aka The Book of Andre Norton) Merlin's Mirror Moon Called Moon of Three Rings (MS1) Night of Masks No Night Without Stars Octagon Magic The Opal-Eyed Fan Operation Time Search Ordeal in Otherwhere (SL2) Outside Perilous Dreams Plague Ship (SQ2) Postmarked the Stars (SQ4) The Prince Commands Quag Keep Quest Crosstime (BW2) (aka Crosstime Agent) Ralestone Luck Rebel Spurs (DR2) Red Hart Magic Ride Proud Rebel (DR1) Rogue Reynard Sargasso of Space (SQ1) Scarface Sea Siege Secret of the Lost Race (aka Wolfshead) Shadow Hawk The Sioux Spaceman Snow Shadow Sorceress of the Witch World (WW6)(ST5) Spell of the Witch World (WW7) Stand & Deliver Stand to Horse Star Born (AT2) Star Gate Star Guard Star Hunter Star Man's Son (aka Daybreak--2250 A.D.) CHECKOUT!!! Star Rangers (aka The Last Planet) The Stars are Ours (AT1) Steel Magic (aka Grey Magic) Storm Over Warlock (SL1) Sword in Sheath (LV2) (aka The Island of the Lost) The Sword is Drawn (LV1) Ten Mile Treasure Three Against the Witch World (WW4)(ST3) The Time Traders (RM1) Trey of Swords (WW10) Uncharted Stars (MJ2) Velvet Shadows Victory on Janus (JA2) Voodoo Planet (SQ3) Voorloper 'Ware Hawk (WW16) Warlock of the Witch World (WW5)(ST4) Web of the Witch World (WW2)(ST2) Were-Wrath Wheel of Stars The White Jade Fox Witch World (WW1)(ST1) Wolfshead (aka Secret of the Lost Race) Wraiths of Time The X Factor Yankee Privateer Year of the Unicorn (WW3)(HH1) Yurth Burden (WW11) Zarsthor's Bane (WW12) Zero Stone (MJ1) Children's Books: (written as Mary Norton) The Borrowers The Borrowers Afield The Borrowers Aloft (?) The Borrowers Avenged NORTON, ANDRE & A. C. CRISPIN Gryphon's Eyrie (WW17)(HH5) NORTON, ANDRE & PHYLLIS MILLER House of Shadows Seven Spells to Sunday NORTON, ANDRE & DOROTHY MADLEE Star Ka'at (SK1) Star Ka'at World (SK2) Star Ka'ats & the Plant People (SK3) Star Ka'ats & the Winged Warriors (SK4) NORTON, ANDRE & BERTHA STEMME NORTON Bertie and May NORTON, ANDRE & MICHAEL GILBERT Day of the Ness NORTON, ANDRE & GRACE ALLEN HOGARTH Murders for Sale ------------------------------ From: styx!mcb@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch) Subject: Spider Robinson's NIGHT OF POWER Date: 13 Mar 86 07:32:37 GMT Robinson, Spider. NIGHT OF POWER. (Berkley, January 1986, pb, 287 pp., $2.95. ISBN 0-425-008475-2.) Before discussing the merits of Mr. Robinson's latest novel, I find it necessary to disclose that I do in fact believe in Hell, and, in particular, I believe that there is a place in Hell where the temperature is kept at an exquisitely painful degree and where demons laugh with glee while torturing those confined there. This is the place reserved for the people that design paperback book jackets and write the cover blurbs. The Berkley cover for NIGHT OF POWER shows three urban terrorist-punks, presumably white, one with a hockey mask, one with a Mohawk, and one with merely a menacing expression, wielding various weapons in front of a burning suspension bridge. The teaser reads, "A FAMILY IS TRAPPED IN A CITY'S HOLOCAUST!" No, Spider Robinson hasn't written the sequel to ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK. The front cover teaser (and its back cover companion, "NEW YORK IS BURNING!") are both textually incorrect. I have mentioned the excesses of cover blurbists to both authors and publishers, both of whom seem to mumble and shuffle their feet uncomfortably when the subject is broached. I would have hoped that Mr. Robinson was sufficiently well-connected in the SF publishing industry by now to insist on a contractual right of approval of the pb cover (I haven't seen the Baen hardcover jacket; perhaps someone could describe it?). Apparently he isn't, or else it's his idea of a good joke. Anyway, this is Robinson's race relations novel, a subject that seemed to drop out of both SF and mainstream literature around 1970 or so. Each of us has had since about 1966 to form our own opinions on the subject, so there's little point in attempting to dissect Robinson's (or his protagonists') precise ideology of racial relations. It will suffice to say that they are well thought-out, interesting, and provocative, regardless of whether you agree or disagree. NIGHT OF POWER is a Heinleinian novel, much in the tradition of THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS or IF THIS GOES ON. It is a novel of ideas and politics; the characters are *utterly* competent like Heinlein's but are somehow not as interesting as the usual Robinson cast. (With the exception of Jennifer, a precocious 13-year old, and her bodyguard and friend, Jose.) The plot follows the fairly routine path of Ordinary Family Gets Mixed up in Major Events. (The main characters, parents of the 13-year old, are of course an interracial couple, which I suppose is the Lowest Common Denominator of race relations.) Throughout the book, Robinson shows he can discuss political issues without being didactic or boring. Along the way are lots and lots of observations on the nature of cities, methods of self-defense, forms of government, popular music, and a reasonable number of puns. Robinson is probably getting tired of being compared with Heinlein; NIGHT OF POWER certainly will not cause anyone to stop. This isn't Spider Robinson's best book, but it isn't his worst, and it it's still one of the better books I've read this last year. Race is a tremendously difficult subject to deal with in fiction without being strident or preachy; Robinson is about 90% successful in this regard. I know that many of us thought that racial tension in this country magically ended with the 1960s; NIGHT OF POWER may convince you otherwise whatever your views on the subject. Michael C. Berch ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA UUCP: {allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,dual,ihnp4,sun}!idi!styx!mcb ------------------------------ From: drutx!slb@caip.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden) Subject: Re: Where are the Sime Fans Date: 11 Mar 86 22:36:27 GMT "Mahogany Trinrose" was my favorite. The character of the heroine, and the descriptions of her experiences were excellent. I can't remember the names of the other 2 I read--but didn't think they were nearly as fine. I got all 3 at the library some time ago, and had not realized they ever came out in paperback until I found 2 at the used book store. Glad to know there were so many of this series. I'll have to keep an eye out. Sue Brezden ihnp4!drutx!slb ------------------------------ From: mcomp!mic@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 11 Mar 86 19:51:00 GMT Regarding Chug Von Rospach's request for more information about the return of WORLDS OF IF: WORLDS OF IF is returning in more than one form this spring. Micro Information Concepts will be reproducing all of the back issues in both black and white, and color (covers) microfiche. More information about this as well as other available science fiction/fantasy micro publications will be posted on the net shortly. It is because of this that I can shed some light on your request for further information. It is my understanding that: 1) WORLDS OF IF is returning and will be continuing the publishing of speculative fiction stories similar to the original version. There will be few restrictions on subject matter. 2) Both established and new writers will be featured. 3) Those who wish to submit manuscripts for review are encouraged to do so in the usual manner. (i.e. SASE, double spaced, cover letter with author background information etc.) Pays $0.01 - 0.03/word for accepted work. 4) The publisher/editor is Clifford Hong who may be reached at WORLDS OF IF, P.O. Box 93, Hicksville, NY 11802 There is one important omission in the Locus advertisement. The $6.50 subscription rate is only available for a limited time and should be responded to promptly. An SASE for subscriptions is not necessary but rather refers to specific information requests and manuscript submissions. That is just about all I know of the WORLDS OF IF return (in paper). I hope it helps some. Gary Lewin usenet: {infoswx!mcomp!, texsun!rrm!} mic!gary Micro Information Concepts ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 86 18:33:22 EST From: FULIGIN%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide To the best of my knowledge, tapes of the original BBC radio versions of the Hitchhiker's guide are not commercially available. They were, however broadcast largely uncut by National Public Radio in the states a couple of years ago. There are 12, 30-minute episodes in all. They closely parrallel the first book for the first few episodes, but not entirely. Some of the material in the second two books also appears, although sometimes in wildly different contexts, and, by the second 6 episodes, there is almost no similarity to the written 'adaptations'. The fourth book probably hadn't even been concieved at the time the scripts were being written. Anyway, you can probably find someone who taped the series from NPR who would be willing to make copies. (The radio series is also different from both records and TV series, BTW). Has anyone heard anything more on the film adaptation? I talked to Adams at Boskone several years ago, and he was working on it then. I have also heard mention of it several times since then from different sources, but I have no idea what's actually being done on the project, if anything... Peter E. Lee (Fuligin%UMass.BitNet@WisCVM.ARPA) ------------------------------ From: udenva!showard@caip.rutgers.edu (Mr. Blore) Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's nitpicking Date: 15 Mar 86 21:27:09 GMT trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) writes: >Let us examine the question found by the caveman back on old Earth- > >"What do you get if you multiply six by nine" > >A while ago, I noticed that you can't get this from a normal set of >scrabble tiles, as you don't have four y's. But it wasn't a normal set of tiles. Arthur made it himself, and must have put in extra y's. Or maybe two of the y's were blanks. Mr. Blore {hplabs, seismo}!hao!udenva!showard or {boulder, cires, ucbvax!nbires, cisden}!udenva!showard ------------------------------ From: warwick!sfsoc@caip.rutgers.edu (Science Fiction + Fantasy From: Society) Subject: Re: Hitch-hicker Date: 14 Mar 86 22:45:22 GMT >From: E. Wesley Miller Jr. > There are 2 two-albumn sets that make up the HHGTTG and TRATEOTU. > They are produced by HANNIBAL RECORDS, 611 Broadway, Suite 415, > New York, New York 10012. The albumn numbers are HNBL2301 and > HNBL 1307, the first albumn is 2301. These are taken from the BBC > radio 4 series. Sorry, but this is not the case. The two albums were recorded specifically for record, NOT from the BBC radio recordings. The most noticable difference is that the black ship is the Disaster Area stuntship, not the alien polymorphs' flagship. There are other differences in the script etc. If you're looking for these LPs in the UK, they're on Original Records; I don't know the catalogue no.s offhand. Beware! The first album is very hard to get hold of. UWSF&FS 131 Arts Fed Pigeonholes Uni. of Warwick Coventry CV 47 AL UK sfsoc@warwick.uucp - anyone out there want to tell me my path? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Mar 86 0923-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #47 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 20 Mar 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 47 Today's Topics: Administrivia - A gentle reminder, Books - Anderson & Farmer & Herbert & Pohl & Wolfe (3 msgs) & Fantasy Authors & Biographies of SF Writers, Films - Brazil, Television - Dr. Who, Miscellaneous - SFL T-Shirts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Mar 86 08:57:02 EST From: Saul Subject: A gentle reminder As a reminder to both new and old readers, all requests to be added to or deleted from this list, problems, questions, etc., should be sent to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@RUTGERS. Submissions for the digest are to be sent to SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS. If you use the wrong address for the wrong purpose your message will probably get ignored. This means that messages intended for the digest that are sent to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@RUTGERS will probably never get into the digest! Also, please keep submissions to one topic. That makes it a lot easier for me to work with and it is easier for others to reply as well. Thank you for your cooperation. Saul ------------------------------ From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert) Subject: **Booklist** Poul Anderson Books (Revised) Date: 12 Mar 86 03:30:21 GMT Last correction by Lia Adams, Randy Neff and myself. ANDERSON, POUL Polesotechnic League (Van Rijn or Trader, series): The Man Who Counts (aka War of the Wing-Men) The Trouble Twisters Trader to the Stars Satan's World Mirkheim The Earth Book of Stormgate Polesotechnic League (Flandry, series): Ensign Flandry A Circus of Hells The Rebel Worlds Mayday Orbit (A Message in Secret) Earthman, Go Home (A Plague of Masters) We Claim These Stars (A Handful of Stars) A Knight of Ghosts and Shadows Agent of the Terran Empire A Stone in Heaven Flandry of Terra Mayday Orbit Earthman, Go Home The Game of Empire Polesotechnic League (Associated Novels): The People of the Wind The Day of Their Return The Long Night The Night Face (aka The Night Face & Other Stories, Let Spaceman Beware) Psycho-Technic League: The Peregrine (aka Star Ways) Psycho-Technic League Virgin Planet Cold Victory Starship Last Viking series: The Last Viking: Book One, the Golden Horn The Road of the Sea Horse (#2) Sign of the Raven (#3) Other Novels: After Doomsday Agent of Vega The Avatar The Best of Poul Anderson Beyond the Beyond The Book of Poul Anderson Brain Wave The Broken Sword The Byworlder Conan the Rebel Conflict The Corridors of Time The Dancer From Atlantis The Dark Between the Stars The Devil's Game Dialogue With Darkness The Enemy Stars Explorations Fantasy Fire Time The Fox, the Dog, and the Griffin (childrens) The Gods Laughed The Golden Slave (historical) The Guardians of Time The High Crusade Homebrew Homeward and Beyond The Horn of Time Hrolf Kraki's Saga Is There Life on Other Worlds? (non-fiction speculation) The Long Way Home (aka No World of Their Own) Makeshift Rocket Many Worlds of Poul Anderson Maurai & Kith The Merman's Children A Midsummer Tempest Murder Bound (mystery) Murder in Black Letter (mystery) Nebula Awards Four (edited by P.A.) New America No World of Their Own (see The Long way Home) Operation Chaos Orbit Unlimited Orion Shall Rise Past Times Perish By the Sword (mystery) Planet of No Return (see Q & A) Queen of Air and Darkness Question and Answer (aka Planet of No Return) Rogue Sword (historical) Seven Conquests Shield The Snows of Ganymede & War of the Wing-Men The Star Fox Strangers From Earth Tales of the Flying Mountains Tau Zero There Will Be Time Three Hearts & Three Lions Three Worlds to Conquer Time & Stars Time Patrolman Twilight World UnMan and Other Novellas Vault of the Ages War of Two Worlds Winners The Winter of the World A World Named Cleopatra (group written, initiated by P.A.) The World's of Poul Anderson Planet of No Return War of Two Worlds World Without Stars World Without Stars ANDERSON, POUL & GORDON R. DICKSON Earthman's Burden (Hoka #1) Hoka (Hoka #2) Phu Nham Star Prince Charlie ANDERSON, POUL & KAREN ANDERSON The Unicorn Trade ANDERSON, POUL & MILDRED DOWNEY BROXON The Demon of Scattery ANDERSON, POUL & GORDON EKLUND Inheritors of Earth ANDERSON, POUL & MARTIN GREENBURG, CHARLES WAUGH (editors) Mercenaries of Tomorrow ANDERSON, POUL & GORDON R. DICKSON, ROBERT SILVERBERG The Day the Sun Stood Still ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: P.J. Farmer **Booklist** Date: 16 Mar 86 12:44:10 GMT I don't usually respond to these lists, but I couldn't pass this one up. > From: tekigm2!wrd (Bill Dippert) > Riverworld Series: > [...] > Tarzan Alive (??) No, TARZAN ALIVE is not part of the Riverworld series. It, along with DOC SAVAGE: HIS APOCALYPTIC LIFE, it a pseudo-biography of the character. Farmer "claims" that Tarzan (and Doc Savage as well) was a real person, and is related to all sorts of real and fictional characters. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_abg@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Goldfedder) Subject: frank herbert Date: 17 Mar 86 02:58:10 GMT First: yes although all know it Frank Herbert is dead. Second: There are 2 more Dune books on the way Question: How? Frank Herbert had already completed one dune book (past Chapterhouse) and was working on the second one with his son. His son is expected to finish the second book and they should both hit the shelves later this year. Later, Brandon Goldfedder @jhunix ------------------------------ From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert) Subject: Re: review, Frederik Pohl's "The Merchants' War" Date: 13 Mar 86 15:28:32 GMT geoff@ism780c.UUCP (Geoff Kimbrough) writes: > norman@batcomputer.UUCP (Norman Ramsey) writes: >>Would someone knowledgable care to comment on the relationship >>between this work and Pohl and Kornbluth's classic >>_The_Space_Merchants_? > > Ok, TMW is two (two! two! books in one!) books in one binding. > Part One IS _The Space Merchants_, and part Two is the sequel. I > haven't seen the sequel (sorry, the (sub)title escapes me) > published separately. I just recently purchased "The Merchants' War" and NO, NO, NO, it did not include "The Space Merchants" as "part one". TMW is a separate book!!! Caveat: I purchased both as pocket books, the hard back editions may be different. BUT: the pocket books are two separate books, not both bound together. Bill ------------------------------ From: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu (Michaelntz) Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun (Spoilers possible) Date: 17 Mar 86 16:06:00 GMT patcl@hammer.UUCP (Pat Clancy) writes: >I read Shadow of the Torturer and thought it was horrible. I'll second that! This was an outstandingly bad novel. Yet it seems that every year or so the Wulf-cultists must issue forth onto the net to demonstrate why there's such a large and uncritical market for so much bad SF. ------------------------------ From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: Wolfe the best? Date: 16 Mar 86 05:47:53 GMT jimb@ism780 writes: >A vehement demur here. Comparing Card to Wolfe is like comparing >Tim Zahn to Robert Heinlein, Tim Powers to Ursula LeGuin, SKZB to >vintage Zelazny, etc. They're passable, good even. Show promise >of putting it all together, whether on a revolutionary basis (Zahn) >or evolutionary (Powers & SKZB). But as far as being anywhere near >close right now, I think not. ENDER'S GAME was a better than >average book and probably will wind up on this year's Hugo ballot >and may win the Nebula. But it is not a heads-above-the-field work >that the Wolfe was, or that Brin's was. It is good, fast-paced >space opera augmented with much-better-than-usual psychological >insights, but basically, that's it. While I agree with you about Card ("Ender's Game" I haven't read but will shortly, my opinion is based on "Hot Sleep") I must demur on Tim Powers. His "Drawing of the Dark" and "Dinner at Deviant's Palace" were both quite good. But "The Anubis Gates" is something else again. It has a quality of crazed imagination that is way beyond most SF authors. I think Powers is better than Brin even though I like Brin. I also think LeGuin wrote only one book which is worth comparing to "Anubis Gates" -- "Left Hand of Darkness". Aside from all that, since Heinlein caught the galloping brain-rot, I see no reason to say Zahn isn't as good, or better. (I haven't read his latest, though. "Friday" and "Job" are signs he is recovering, so who knows?). Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: Wolfe the best? Date: 14 Mar 86 02:55:43 GMT I read "Hot Sleep", and it impressed me as being the usual semi-literate sci-fi trashola. Amusing, but partly because of things like "Estonian twicks" that made no sense. Probably you are aware of the "Old Masters" like H.G. Wells and C.S. Lewis; also "A Canticle for Liebowitz" if you haven't read it already. Some of Karel Capek's stuff is very good, and no doubt you have run across Lem. If you can hypnotize yourself into believing it is sci-fi, try Nabokov's "Ada". It should be high-brow enough for you, anyway! And of course, truly desperate persons can attempt to believe that Borges, Kafka, Milton, etc. etc. are really "sci-fi". Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ucbvax!weyl!gsmith ------------------------------ From: fritz!lauri@caip.rutgers.edu (Lauri McFadden) Subject: Fantasy Author Contributors Date: 14 Mar 86 03:06:00 GMT I want to thank all of you who have responded to my plea for fantasy authors.. However, I feel the (probably unjustified) need to defend my literary tastes. I explained that I was in a rut and that I wanted some suggestions for fantasy authors. That did not mean that I only read fantasy. So you hard-core science fiction readers can rest easy....I like science fiction too. Not to mention the classics, mythology, mysteries, etc., etc. My bookshelf is quite full of a variety of literature. At this time I am having fun reading fantasies and at another time I will probably get into something else. So right now I choose to broaden my fantasy horizons..... For those of you who are interested in fantasy, I will post a summary of the suggestions I receive when they stop trickling in. I feel better now....I hope this didn't cost anyone too much time to read. Lauri L. McFadden FileNet Corp trwrb!felix!lauri ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 86 12:33:47 est From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: bios of SF writers THE FUTURIANS by Damon Knight is an extensive bio of a group of fans who became probably the most concentrated SF writing talent ever---the one group produced Blish, Lowndes, Knight, Pohl, Kornbluth, agent "Dirk Wylie", editors Merril & Wollheim, and so on. Pohl said (on tour promoting _The Way the Future Was_) that it was excessively gossipy; it does include a lot of who was doing what to whom and how John Michel, the group's most notable failure, wound up, but it's still a remarkable book (Knight put together everything from old fanzines to contemporary interviews with the survivors). ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: BRAZIL Date: 13 Mar 86 17:44:48 GMT >From: alfke@csvax.caltech.edu >In his review of "Brazil", Mark Leeper writes: >> The book [1984] was his prediction from the viewing point of 1948 >> of what the next 36 years could bring. It is a moot point how >> accurate his prediction was, but the book is still a valuable >> yardstick for measuring our current world. >Orwell was describing things that already existed in the world of >1948 and making them more obvious, not trying to predict 1984. To >view it as prophecy makes it seem safer, but that wasn't his aim. Yes most of the elements were around, but not to the degree in the novel. It is sort of an "if this goes on" science fiction story. >> One exception, I think, is the Fresnel lens . . . > >The Fresnel lens was invented by Messr. Fresnel sometime in the >19th century Yes, though I don't know if the one piece fresnel lenses as shown in the film were. I only started seeing them in the 60's, but I conced the lenses were around before, so the point that is was all refinement of existing technology is even stronger than I thought. >Conclusive comment: >** Everyone go out and see "Brazil" as soon as possible ** No way! I liked the film a lot, but is sure isn't everybody's cup of tea. I am surprised it is doing as well as it is but my recommendation is that if people liked 1984, they should see BRAZIL. That is most of us but by no means everyone. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: jhunix!jor_d015@caip.rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee) Subject: Re: Companions of Dr. Who written out. Date: 14 Mar 86 03:21:55 GMT ins_ajpo@jhunix.UUCP (Adric of Alzarius) writes: >Because K9 had such a large following, the BBC started a Dr.Who >spin-off which starred K9 and Elisabeth Sladen as Sarah Jane Smith >called "K9 and Company." This show didn't have quite the following >that the BBC hoped it would. This show only lasted one season in >England. I've seen one episode of it and it didn't seem to have >the "pizazz" (sp) that Dr.Who had. K9 and Sarah Jane didn't seem >to mix too well. It only lasted one episode, not one season--it was a one-shot special. Kenneth Arromdee BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA UUCP: ...allegra!hopkins!jhunix!ins_akaa ------------------------------ From: ringwld!jmturn%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa Date: Monday, 17 Mar 1986 21:38-EST Subject: T-shirts Update on T-Shirt situation: 1) The original artwork to the SF-LOVERS T-shirt seems well and truely lost. No one has volunteered knowledge of the location of the art, and it seems likely the holder of such is no longer reading SFL. 2) A good portion of the people who had comments about my plans said "I'd love to order a few, but please can it be something other than the bug-eyed monster..." 3) No one seemed to object to the logistics of the plan. Therefore: I have asked an artist friend of mine to draw up some new artwork for a T-shirt. This will *not* be the bug-eyed monster! The general lines I suggested to him were as follows: The art will show a spaceship bridge, with a large viewport looking out into space. A gas giant will be visible on one side of the port. Two people will be seen on the bridge. One will be looking out the port. The other will be peering at a terminal display. The display will read: Date: Feburary 30, 2836 1224 EST From: Lazurus Long To: SF-LOVERS@EARTH.SOL.MILYWAY Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 1254, Number 54 Todays Topics: Comments? James Turner ARPA ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA UUCP {decvax,sri-unix,ima,linus}!cca!ringwld!jmturn MAIL 329 Ward Street; Newton, MA 02159 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Mar 86 0958-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #48 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 20 Mar 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 48 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Eddings & Hubbard & Lee & Niven & Robinson & Wolfe (2 msgs) & Bad Books (2 msgs) & Fantasy Authors (2 msgs), Television - Teri Garr & The Twilight Zone (2 msgs) & Amazing Stories & Dr. Who, Miscellaneous - Harper's Article on SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: aecom2!eliovson@caip.rutgers.edu (Moshe Eliovson) Subject: Brokedown Palace Date: 13 Mar 86 23:58:13 GMT Brokedown Palace is Steven Brust's latest effort to appear on the stands. I picked it up about two months ago. The story is unrelated to the Jhereg/Yendi books. While Jhereg/Yendi represent adventure, a twisting, unpredictable plot and some magical/psychic elements and overall excitement, Brokedown Palace is a revival of sorts. Any true lover of ancient fantasy, legend or myth will be enchanted by Steve's "Interludes" which are scattered along the whole length of the novel. The story alone, his writing, etc. also has merit and deserves attention. For me, the attraction lies mainly in the Interludes which establish an air of history and depth and add to and enhance the story greatly. To any new reader of Steven Brust: I recommend Jhereg and Yendi highly, as well as Brokedown Palace. Moshe Eliovson ...!philabs!aecom!aecom2!eliovson ------------------------------ From: drivax!holloway@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: Belgariad (slight spoilers) Date: 17 Mar 86 19:15:18 GMT It wins my award for using *every single* fantasy cliche character and situation. Truly, every one. In fact, you could make a list of trite fantasy situations from this book: The Prophecy - A neophyte finds out that s/he is destined to fulfill a prophecy. The Quest - A small band of adventurers set out to recover some goodie. The Neophyte - Someone just discovers they have magical powers. The Ancient Wizard - Belgarath. Gandalf. etc. The Thief - Silk, Gray Mouser, etc. The Barbarian - Barak, Fafhrd, Conehead (er, Conan), etc. The Sorceress - Polgara, all those elf queens in Tolkien, etc. Shape Changers. Overbearing Kings. Kindly Kings. Kings of every shape and flavour. Populations of beings of ancient power who don't mix with human affairs much (although they always seem to at some point in the story) - The Dryads. Gods and Goddesses incarnate before your very eyes. Ultimate Evil. I always find myself rooting for the bad guys. They're always so misunderstood, and are always holding innocent populations in terrible bondage. Jack Chalker puts it best: "There's always some Dark something or other or Baron of this or Prince of that"... Almost every character is a stereotype. And the situations, too. Yet, I still liked the series, particularly when they're in that country of the snake people. Incidentially, I have to nominate Patricia Wrede as runner up in the "Trite Character and Situations" awards. Bruce Holloway ....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ From: minnie!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Grevstad) Subject: New L. Ron Hubbard book Date: 16 Mar 86 08:06:01 GMT Just noticed the second volume of the Mission Earth dekalogy 'Black Genesis' in my neighborhood bookstore today. $18.95, so I think I will wait for it to be discounted as the first one was. Anybody read it yet? Chris Grevstad {sdcsvax,hplabs}!sdcrdcf!psivax!nrcvax!chris ucbvax!calma!nrcvax!chris ihnp4!nrcvax!chris ------------------------------ From: aecom2!eliovson@caip.rutgers.edu (Moshe Eliovson) Subject: Highly Recommended! Date: 14 Mar 86 00:08:34 GMT Death's Master by Tanith Lee Allow me to recommend to all lovers of powerful narrative this fine book. From the first words of this story I knew I was going to love it. Therefore I resisted the temptation to devour it in one sitting and savored it for about three days when, alas, the story reached its finish. So, I've re-read it 43 times so far.... Well, it certainly deserves some revisiting. Why you ask? The story involves quite a few characters, four of major import. First there is Simmu, the resulting offspring of a very unusual relationship. Then there is Zhirem, a child forged by his mother in the fires of Hell at a very young age. Next there are the two "un-cousins", Uluhme, Lord of Death and then the Lord of Demons. Enter the folds of the books covers and follow the path of fate for a while while the lives of the two former characters unfold. The story is the pure distillation of supreme fantasy. Powerful forces, magic, beautiful women, and men, and boys, and girls, the dead, those who live unnaturally long... you will find every fine ingredient you could wish for in this book. Moshe Eliovson ...!philabs!aecom!aecom2!eliovson ------------------------------ From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: "Breeder" Reaction Date: 17 Mar 86 02:46:02 GMT Every time I hear the word "breeder" used as a synonym for "straight" I am irresistibly reminded of Larry Niven's sci-fi novel "The Protector". In this book, "breeders" are persons up to the age of ~45, whereas "protectors" are a further stage in which sexual characteristics disappear and intelligence greatly increases. This has a strange affinity to sociobiological theories on the cause of homosexuality. In this theory, gays are "protectors" of sorts, although sexual and not super intelligent. In Niven's book, "protectors" had only ONE motivation: protection of their progeny or other relatives. So the analogy is bad, but it still makes me crack up. Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ From: norman@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Norman Ramsey) Subject: Re: Spider Robinson's NIGHT OF POWER Date: 17 Mar 86 16:03:09 GMT mcb@styx.UUCP (Michael C. Berch) writes: >NIGHT OF POWER is a Heinleinian novel, much in the tradition of THE >MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS or IF THIS GOES ON. It is a novel of ideas >and politics; the characters are *utterly* competent like >Heinlein's but are somehow not as interesting as the usual Robinson >cast. (With the exception of Jennifer, a precocious 13-year old, >and her bodyguard and friend, Jose.) The plot follows the fairly >routine path of Ordinary Family Gets Mixed up in Major Events. (The >main characters, parents of the 13-year old, are of course an >interracial couple, which I suppose is the Lowest Common >Denominator of race relations.) Throughout the book, Robinson shows There are a couple of things I would like to add to this review which I think are worth mentioning. First is that when I read this book it all but screamed I AM A STUDENT OF ROBERT HEINLEIN from every page. I would have enjoyed it more without this. The other is that the book's ending is very weak: MILD SPOILER --- the main character, Jennifer's Dad, suddenly, inexplicably, and unbelievable stops behaving like the well-bred, right-thinking man we all know he is. This goes on for a short time, then suddenly he undergoes another psychological reversal (truth and justice are revealed, or whatever), and the psychological "conflict" is "resolved." I found the whole business very artificial and it badly weakened an otherwise enjoyable book. Norman Ramsey norman@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue 18 Mar 86 10:22:44-PST From: Steve Dennett Subject: Castle of the Otter Hello, I'm interested in obtaining Wolfe's "Castle of the Otter" at a reasonable price (i.e., not a collector's edition). Does anyone know if it ever came out in paperback, or was ever offered by the Science Fiction Book Club? (If the latter, do you have the order number? I wrote them about this, but received no response.) Finally, who put out the regular hardcover edition? Any help will be appreciated! Thanks. Steve Dennett dennett@sri-nic.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tue 18 Mar 86 16:41:13-PST From: Steve Dennett Subject: Castle of the Otter, pt. 2 Well, wouldn't you know that the same day I sent this list my request for info on an inexpensive copy of "Castle of the Otter", I returned home to find a package from the SF Book Club. They went ahead and sent me a copy (though I only asked if they had it). Anyway, for anyone who is interested, the cost from them is 6.55 (4.50 + tax & shipping). Steve Dennett ------------------------------ From: mpm@hpfcms Subject: Re: bad bad books Date: 15 Mar 86 22:19:00 GMT Re: bad writing becoming a commercial success This reminds me of a best-seller from years ago called "Naked Came a Stranger". I heard about it on a late night talk show. Some well-know author wrote up a plot outline for a "sex" story and solicited contributions from other writers. He edited it all into a novel, making sure that any "good" writing was "blue-pencilled into oblivion", and published it. He had his secretary pose for the back cover photograph, and she even made the rounds of various talk shows. The point of all this was to show how easy it is to sell a book "to the unwashed multitudes" - when it is sufficiently promoted - even "bad" writing. As I remember it, the book became a best-seller AFTER this fraud was revealed (by the man whose idea it was, and on those same talk shows he supposedly despised). Now how many readers of this group have ever read the book? This all reminds me of the recent "revelation" that Stephen King wrote four novels under the pen name Bachman. Those books now have HIS name on the cover, and probably sell far better than they did before. (And Stephen has some more money which may motivate him to continue to write books that people like to read. ... or, it may not.) Mike McCarthy {ihnp4, hplabs}!hpfcla!mpm ------------------------------ From: alice!jj@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: bad bad books Date: 17 Mar 86 19:05:45 GMT > In a Spider Robnson book I was reading a few weeks ago, he says in > the introduction that one author made a bet about writing as bad a > book as possible, and the public loved it. He continued these > things, and the books are very successful. Have people heard this > rumor? My first thought is that it would be John Norman's _Gor_ > books.. > Steven > ...!ucbvax!grady My own money would be on the "Xanth" books, if I were a wagering individual (but I'm not). Just compare "On a Pale Horse" to "Golem in the Gears" to see the differences in one writer's style. (ihnp4;allegra;research)!alice!jj ------------------------------ From: hyper!mark@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Mendel) Subject: Re: fantasy authors Date: 14 Mar 86 19:55:52 GMT Oops! Glaring omission from my list: [I hear there's a contract out on me!] Steve Brust, "Jhereg", "Yendi", soon: "Tecla" - Sword & Sorcery "To Reign in Hell", "Brokedown Palace" ------------------------------ From: hyper!mark@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Mendel) Subject: Re: Fantasy Author Recommendations Date: 14 Mar 86 19:39:38 GMT The only fantasy authors I know of are: Kilgore Trout S. Morgenstern :) Here, however, are some real authors who write fantasy: John Myers Myers, "Silverlock" - light but deep - **** Charles de Lint, "Moonheart", others - magic in modern day Canada ? Macavoy, "Tea w/ the Black Dragon" - *** name??arg!, "Dragon Bane", the Dark series, "Ladies of Madrygan" -*** Mark Mendel @ Mpls Fannish Programmers Corp. aka Network Systems Corporation ------------------------------ From: Michael O'Brien Subject: Teri Garr in Star Trek Date: Tue, 18 Mar 86 17:08:31 PST Once in a blue moon, while I'm watching series television, one of the interchangeable bimbos they throw in to spice up the plot actually grabs and keeps my attention. The first time this happened to me was the "Gary Seven" episode of Star Trek, in its original broadcast, and the actress was Teri Garr. Many years later I heard it was the first role she ever got; certainly I was impressed enough at the time to pick her name off the credits and remember it. I've followed her career with interest to the present day. A mutual friend assures me that she's as intelligent as she doesn't look, and as nice as she does look. I like her a lot. ------------------------------ From: bambi!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael Caplinger) Subject: Arthur C. Clarke on TWILIGHT ZONE? Date: 17 Mar 86 02:18:28 GMT I heard somewhere that TWILIGHT ZONE had done an adaptation of AC Clarke's "The Star". Is it true? Did they make the narrator a Jesuit priest, as in the story? I'm wondering if it's worth waiting for the rerun. Mike Caplinger mike@bellcore.arpa ihnp4!bambi!mike ------------------------------ From: kalash@ingres.berkeley.edu.ARPA (Joe Kalash) Subject: Re: Arthur C. Clarke on TWILIGHT ZONE? (spoiler) Date: 18 Mar 86 18:49:31 GMT I have seen the adaption, it is NOT worth waiting for. They screwed up the story ENTIRELY. It progresses along just like the story until the very end. At the end of the story, the priest is left with a major moral question. In the TV show, they added an extra "twist", the dead race left a smarmy message "not to grieve for us, we have done all we can, we go on to better things, etc.". That addition totally ruined the entire point of the story. Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ From: drivax!holloway@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: AMAZING STORIES Date: 17 Mar 86 19:24:41 GMT boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes: >I hate to tell you this, but the Leprechaun episode described above >was on TWLIGHT ZONE, not AMAZING STORIES. I'm positive about this, >because I stopped watching AS after about the first half-dozen >shows, but have seen most of the TZ's, and this episode was on last >month sometime. Really? Damn. I really hated that episode, and I guess I just remembered it as Amazing Stories. How about that dumb one with Loni Anderson and Dom DeLuise, or that one where meteors made a jock and a nerdette magnetic, etc. But I really liked that Alfy Hitchcock episode with John Huston where he bets this guy he can't light his lighter ten times in a row at the cost of his little finger. Bruce Holloway ....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ From: sfmag!mom@caip.rutgers.edu (M.Modig) Subject: Re: Companions of Dr. Who written out. Date: 17 Mar 86 17:30:46 GMT > Because K9 had such a large following, the BBC started a Dr.Who > spin-off which starred K9 and Elisabeth Sladen as Sarah Jane Smith > called "K9 and Company." This show didn't have quite the > following that the BBC hoped it would. This show only lasted one > season in England. I've seen one episode of it and it didn't seem > to have the "pizazz" (sp) that Dr.Who had. K9 and Sarah Jane > didn't seem to mix too well. That's my opinion. I would like to > hear others. Actually, there was only the one show, the pilot, which has been repeated once in Britain since the first showing. It was never picked up for a seasonal run. It is interesting to note that the first showing of the pilot was marred by a transmitter failure which cut down on the audience. The show itself suffers from poor writing (characterisation is fine, but the motivation behind some of the actions is poor) and the pace is far too slow to hold interest. The plot is also lacking in originality, especially if you are a "Who" fan. Mark Modig ihnp4!sfmag!mom ------------------------------ From: drivax!holloway@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: Harper's Article on SF Date: 17 Mar 86 19:21:43 GMT Pardon moi, I read SF&F because I enjoy it. And the author evidently never read anything by Philip Jose Farmer or Philip K. Dick, or even Roger Zelazny. Bruce Holloway ....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 21 Mar 86 2153-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #49 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 21 Mar 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 49 Today's Topics: Books - Card & Clarke & Dick & Friesner & King & Norton & Story Request & Sime/Gen (2 msgs) & Least Favorite Books & Psychosis Carsoma & Bad Books & Merchant Books, Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide, Television - More things to do with your TV, Miscellaneous - Conventions & SF-LOVERS for Hugo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed 19 Mar 86 15:33:10-EST From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #40 >I would recommend anything by Orson Scott Card. He has mainly been >published in short story form but has a few very good novels out. I wouldn't recommend everything by Card, not as Great Literature anyways. I thought that _Planet_Of_Treason_ or _Traitors_ or (something like that -- I seem to have forgotten the name on purpose) was an utterly trashy space opera in soft sf style, without any significant characters or plot interest. That opinion is false; it was better than most soft sf opera. Still, it had a very strong flavor of "Main character gets trashed by insidious evil invaders. Main character gets powerful. Main character trashes insidious evil invaders. End of story". Unaccompanied Sonata, among others, was on the same general level as Gene Wolfe. Hart's Hope was pretty close, too. I wasn't all that impressed with Ender's Game (esp the novel) as literature, but it was quite interesting and a good read. But please, let's not reopen last year's flame-wars about the relative values of Literature and the Good Read. Bard the Anthro Gargoyle ------------------------------ From: alberta!luca@caip.rutgers.edu (Luca Vanzella) Subject: a new A.C. Clarke novel? Date: 18 Mar 86 23:55:26 GMT Quite a while ago I read (I think in "The Odyssey File - 2010" by Hyams and Clarke) that Arthur C. Clarke was working on a new novel, tentatively called "Songs From Distant Earth". Does any one on the net know about this book? Any tidbits, rumors, or whatever are appreciated. Please e-mail. Thanks. Luca Vanzella (...!ihnp4!alberta!luca) ------------------------------ Subject: PKD Date: Wed, 19 Mar 86 15:16:18 -0500 From: Frank Hollander Yes, Philip K. Dick is probably still writing, but he's out of transmission range (as Ted Sturgeon would have said (also still writing...)). But there has been a big boom in PKD publishing since his death. Early in his career he wrote a number of mainstream novels and a handful or so of them have been published. RADIO FREE ALBEMUTH(??), an early version of what became VALIS, has also been published. There is apparently a complete "Short Stories of PKD" in the works. Most of his short fiction was written early in his career. It would be great to see it assembled in one volume. Frank Hollander ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 86 11:26:18 est From: Carol Morrison Subject: Review of Harlot's Ruse by Esther M. Friesner Somebody suggested more discussion of fantasy on the net, and I'm using that as an excuse. Harlot's Ruse is Esther Friesner's second novel. I haven't read the first. I also don't read much fantasy, but received this book as a gift (from Esther Friesner). This fact probably biases my opinion. I thought it was a very funny book, and recommend it for a fast, light read. I suspect that it pokes fun at a lot of hackneyed fantasy conventions that I'm unaware of. It's definitely from the female point of view; women will identify, men will gain insight (maybe), though I wouldn't call it feminist. Esther has a real way with words, including but not confined to awful puns. The plot is perhaps overly frenetic. As my husband said, "One damned thing after another": I was feeling somewhat exhausted vicariously by the end. However, the story is gleefully wicked, irreverent, naughty, and sweet - just what you'd expect of a first-rate harlot. ------------------------------ From: hropus!jbs@caip.rutgers.edu (John B. SKiendziel) Subject: WANTED:THE DARK TOWER BOOK Date: 20 Mar 86 14:04:21 GMT WANTED: "THE DARK TOWER : THE GUNSLINGER" by Stephen King 1982 Anyone willing to SELL their copy or knows anyone PLEASE give me a call at (201)-949-9766 or send me email with a price and a phone number where I could reach you. Email address : ihnp4!houxm!hropus!jbs Thanks, John B. Skiendziel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 86 16:28 CST From: "David S. Cargo" Subject: Norton book list Catseye, Night of Masks, Judgement on Janus, and Victory on Janus are related in a way not made clear in your booklist. The initial setting of the first three books is in the Dipple, a slum on a planet whose name I can't recall. In one of the books the author says something like, "There are only three ways out of the Dipple: finding a real job, getting in with organized crime, or shipping out as a colonist." The first three books show the three different alternatives, and should have some appropriate linkage shown in the book list. There may be some other linkages in terms of what is in which "universe," but it has been too long since I have read them for me to recall. David S. Cargo (Cargo at HI-Multics), a Norton fan from 'way back. ------------------------------ From: genie!sonja@caip.rutgers.edu (Sonja Bock) Subject: Looking for SF short story Date: 18 Mar 86 02:04:38 GMT Several years ago I read a short story in an anthology which I have lost. I don't remember the name of the anthology, am not sure about the name of the story itself, and don't recall the name of the author although I have the vague recollection that it was a feminine name. The anthology was of first-published stories which won prizes or something like that, and I believe the name was "The Kingmaker". It is a time-travel story with two main characters, a famous politician and an historian from his future. The historian is from 500 years in the future, a graduate student who has obtained a grant to study the life and times of the politician. He makes several trips into the past during his life-long study, each time the technology available allows him to go farther into the past. Therefore, the two protagonists pass each other. The first time the historian sees the politician, the politician is an elder statesman and the historian is a jerky grad student. The first time the politician sees the historian, the historian is an elder statesman-type and the politician is a jerky teenager. The story was very well put together and I think would make a good Twilight Zone or Amazing Stories or even SF feature. Hope someone can identify at least the author so I can track down a copy. Thanks. ------------------------------ Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #46 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 86 23:02:07 -0500 From: jen@ATHENA.MIT.EDU There is a small but enthusiastic Sime/Gen Householding centering here at the MIT Science Fiction Society. At the moment we have 12 members, including Channels (junct and disjunct), Rensimes, Companions and ordinary Gens. (I'm a 2nd order Companion, Jenniver ambrov Mitar.) We don't have regular meetings, but we meet at conventions a great deal. We had a private party with J. Lichtenberg at Boskone and she did some workshopping with us; all in all, a lot of fun. If anyone is interested in more info, post a request and I'll post our Sosectu's name and address. We do have a small newsletter. Jenniver ambrov Mitar ------------------------------ From: hope!corwin@caip.rutgers.edu (John Kempf) Subject: Re: Where are the Sime Fans Date: 18 Mar 86 11:09:42 GMT It is damn hard to be a Sime/Gen fan, if you can't find the books. So far, I have only found three, two of which only because a friend loaned them to me. cory ------------------------------ From: cisden!john@caip.rutgers.edu (John Woolley) Subject: Least Favourite SF Books Date: 17 Mar 86 17:54:40 GMT Bruce Wampler's survey prompts me to add four more questions. *Mail* responses, I'll summarize. Multiple answers OK. 1. Most overrated book. What's the worst SF book you've read that lots of other people thought was great? Even that won a Nebula/Hugo? My answer: Clarke's _Childhood's_End_. 2. Most underrated book. Ditto, but this time something you liked that nobody else seemed to care for much. My answer: Clarke's _A_Fall_of_Moondust_. 3. Worst writer that manages to stay fairly popular in the field. You know, that guy that has a great following but you can't choke him down? My answer: E. R. Burroughs. Hands down. 4. Book you're most ashamed to admit you like. (Answers anonymous of course.) My answer: Uh, I can't tell. I really can't. Peace and Good!, Fr. John Woolley ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 86 11:35 EST From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: SF-Lovers (Digest)V11 #38: "Possibly a first for sf-lovers" Just got #38, #39 and #40 all in a heap. In #38 was a short sf story entitled "Psychosis Carsoma". Interesting, if slightly -- well -- BIZARRE. (To the author:) I took it from your post-cut message that you write short stories often. Are these mostly in an sf vein? I'm a sort of mediocre writer, mostly spontaneous fiction (i.e. sit down at the wordprocessor after getting an idea, start typing, fix spelling mistakes, print out, read and throw away) related to sf and fantasy. nj ------------------------------ From: cbosgd!rtm@caip.rutgers.edu (Randy Murray) Subject: Re: bad bad books Date: 19 Mar 86 21:16:26 GMT grady@cad.UUCP (Steven Grady) writes: > In a Spider Robnson book I was reading a few weeks ago, he says in > the introduction that one author made a bet about writing as bad a > book as possible, and the public loved it. He continued these > things, and the books are very successful. Have people heard this > rumor? My first thought is that it would be John Norman's _Gor_ > books.. Nope, it was none other than Mr. Edgar Rice Burroughs _Tarzan . . . _ (you fill in the blanks) books. Amazingly enough, these popular novels were started over a conversation of how much the public would take on a logical extension of Kipling's _The Jungle Book_. Now, don't all you vine-swingers feel silly? Randy Murray ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 86 19:48:00 est From: UFFNER Subject: Re: Merchant Book Request At the risk of being painfully obvious, how about the Chanur books by C. J. Cherryh. Or _Downbelow_Station_ & _Merchanters_Luck_. There are also 25+ free trader novels by Andre Norton, a few by Larry Niven and at least one by RA Heinlein. (But of course you already know this since this is where much material for Traveller is drawn from. Tom Uffner ------------------------------ Date: 20-Mar-1986 1425 From: francini%ditto.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Recordings... For those who are interested, I have a copy of the complete set of 12 episodes of the infamous radio series. The person(s) who have been hunting for a copy can send mail to me directly. (I am not exactly sure of the ARPAnet routing, but I will include the Usenet routing if it will help.) The radio series was in my opinion far better than the records, or the TV series, or the books. [By the way, the complete scripts for the RADIO series are now published in a book which I have seen in book stores both here in the Boston area and in London - "The Original HITCHHIKER Radio Scripts", with an introduction by Paddy Kingsland, plus another introduction by Douglas Adams largely contradicting the one by Paddy Kingsland. It is a most entertaining book, as it contains lots of stuff that never made it into the broadcast series (for reasons of time, mostly), plus it includes many interesting comments and footnotes concerning the actions that transpired during the creation of the series [like Adams' reasoning behind the Sperm Whale bit]. It is in large-format softcover. Share and enjoy! John J. Francini USENET: ...decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-ditto!francini ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 86 12:36:07 EST From: Bruce Nevin Subject: More things to do with your TV The following appeared in the editorial section of the Gloucester [Massachusetts] Daily Times for Tuesday, March 4: YOU CAN ACT TO SAVE YOUR PLANET If you're young, old, rich or poor you can act to help save your planet, whatever your political views are. Your television set gives you the chance to secretly send synchronized thought waves to the face that you see on the screen. Stare into the man's eyes without hearing and with all your willpower repeat the words "peace, no bombs" for instance. Television viewers all around the world have the power to influence the mind of the man that they see on the screen. Do it during his entire appearance knowing others who read this do the same and that a concerned minority has power. I ask you to print this letter to protect our children. H. G. Wakelam Yacht Operculum Box 91, P, Tahiti French Polynesia The audience for this is obviously self-selecting. I can imagine responses of two kinds: o The guy's obviously a wacko. Probably thinks Venusians are tuning in through his sideburns. Of course no such influence is possible. (I wonder how the lucky S.O.B. got to be in Tahiti to be crazy . . .) o Yeah, she's got something there . . . I know about the hundredth monkey and the Sheldrake experiments, anything's possible, I'll try it. Either way, I thought you'd enjoy it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 86 23:37:35 PST From: pnet01!victoro For listings of conventions occuring near the San Diego area check out the (revamped!) newsletter of STAR-San Diego (Trying hard to be San Diego's Science Fiction Society). 'Interphase' is published monthly for $5/year (well, you know what I mean...) by STAR-San Diego, PO Box 15373, San Diego, Ca 92115. Sorry about the personal reply to the digest, but I could not decode your address. The other SF conventions that will be in San Diego are: April - Traveling edition of Creation Con July - Westercon 39 (Full posting forthcomming) August - San Diego Comic Con (But we're taking over) March - ConQuistador (now up to IV!) [That is all] Victor O'Rear {sdcsvax,noscvax,ihnp4}!crash!victoro ------------------------------ From: Michael O'Brien Subject: SF-LOVERS for Hugo Date: Thu, 20 Mar 86 11:26:56 PST Best Professional Editor for Saul Jaffe is, I think, a stunningly bad idea. It would alienate the rest of the SF community just as would all the Scientologists banding together to nominate "The Invaders' Plan" for Best Novel. However, I think Saul (and his predecessors!) deserve recognition for editing one of the most original publishing concepts in fanzines since the invention of the APA. I would like to point out that the public media never pay the slightest attention to the fannish section of the Hugo awards, and only pay a moderate amount of attention to the professional section. Hence, a "Best Fanzine" award to Saul would be just as appropriate as, say, "Best Fan Writer" to the Leeper Consortium. I would like to point out here that, fans being fans, the rules are not inflexible. The Con Committee has the option of suspending the rules if there is a strong reason; enough people nominating SF-LOVERS might convince them, especially since the fact that "the rules don't allow it" (why not, by the way?) is undoubtedly due to the fact that the rules were written in ignorance of electronic publishing. Failing that, there's the business meeting. It shouldn't be all that hard to propose a change in rules to allow for electronic publications in the fanzine category. Mike O'Brien obrien@rand-unix.arpa {sdcrdcf,decvax}!randvax!obrien ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Mar 86 0908-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #50 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 24 Mar 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 50 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Hambly & Heinlein & McCaffrey & Robinson & Wolfe & Favorite Books & Brief Reviews & Merchant Books, Films - Highlander, Television - Alfred Hitchcock Presents (2 msgs) & The Twilight Zone, Miscellaneous - Worldcon '86 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: uok!jibharjo@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Jhereg Date: 17 Mar 86 22:39:00 GMT Having read the novel 'Jhereg', and enjoyed it, I was left with a certain emptiness. Don't get me wrong. I said I enjoyed the book. The emptiness I felt was caused by not having read Stephen Brust before. In fact I had never heard of Brust before if I had not run into a fellow SF buff in a B. Dalton bookstore. I like the work of Brust and would appreaciate any information anyone could supply concerning his past work and any upcoming novels. A sequel to Jhereg, perhaps... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 86 18:15:02 PST From: lah%miro@BERKELEY.EDU (Commander RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Re: Fantasy Authors The author of "the Dark series", namely _The Time of the Dark_, _The Walls of Air-, and _The Armies of Daylight_, as well as _The Ladies of Mandrigyn_ and _Dragonsbane_ (her latest and best to date), is Barbara Hambly, a disgustingly good author. I give all her books my highest recommendation. Get'em while they're hot! Regards, Leigh Ann ------------------------------ Date: Fri 21 Mar 86 17:35:00-PST From: Judy Anderson Subject: Heinlein's latest (Spoiler) The Cat Who Walks Through Walls was a REALLY great book... Up until about 1/2 way through, when it degenerated into the universe from The Number Of The Beast. Grrrr.... So if you're a diehard Heinlein fanatic like me and want to read it ANYWAY, wait 'til it comes out in paperback (I borrowed it and I am glad...) Judy. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 86 10:39:51 est From: rice@nrl-csr (Barbara E. Rice) Subject: 2 More Mc Caffery Books Two more books belong in list recently posted of Anne McCaffery books: Killishandra (A sequel to Crystal Singer) Merka(spelling?) (A spin off of Moreta) ------------------------------ Date: Fri 21 Mar 86 17:31:05-PST From: Judy Anderson Subject: Night Of Power I also really enjoyed Night Of Power, but I think it is appropriate to warn potential readers that this novel takes place in the grubbiest parts of Harlem, and the people there talk like they're from the grubbiest parts of Harlem. Also there are one or two death scenes which are fairly gruesome. They are not gratuitous gruesomeness, but if you get easily grossed out or object to swearing this is not the book for you. (I had a nightmare about one of the death scenes which was fairly disturbing.) Judy. ------------------------------ From: inuxh!verner@caip.rutgers.edu (Matt Verner) Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun Date: 18 Mar 86 03:35:05 GMT > mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes: >>I've found that I really like Wolfe's short stories. Shortly >>after the BotNS came out, I picked up _Gene Wolfe's Book of Days_, >>which I enjoyed immensely. ... > > Then you should check out another collection of his stories, "The > Island Of Dr. Death And Other Stories And Other Stories," in my > opinion a collection that's superior to the "Book Of Days." > Cheers, Bill Ingogly Could someone please tell me how I can aquire these obscure books? I am constantly reading about this or that book from Gene Wolfe and] when I go around the local book stores in Indy they invariably don't have anything but books that appeal to hormone-drenched teenagers that thought the novelization of 'Star Wars' should have won a Hugo. Is there a mailing list or catalog I can subscribe to? Yes, I am already a suscriber to the SF Book Club. Passable at best. Drop me a line, if you have any info! Matt Verner UUCP: ...ihnp4!inuxc!verner AT&T Consumer Products Laboratories AT&T: (317) 845-3631 P. O. Box 1008 Indianapolis, IN 46206 ------------------------------ From: atari!neil@caip.rutgers.edu (Neil Harris) Subject: Re: Favorite SF Books Date: 19 Mar 86 19:47:02 GMT wampler@unmvax.UUCP (Bruce Wampler) writes: > All Time Favorite: If you could pick just one, this is the "best" > SF novel you've ever read. I can't pick just one. But must mention the classics: "Childhood's End" by Clarke, "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" by Heinlein, "The Gods Themselves" by Asimov, "Dune" by Herbert. > Favorite author: Who is your favorite SF writer? Philip K. Dick. Runner-up -- Roger Zelazny. > Hardest to put down: There are some books that you just can't > put down until you're finished. This might be called the > most exciting book you've read. Believe it or not, "Battlefield Earth" by L. Ron Hubbard. 1000 pages of fun! Also, Dune. > Best with computers: Well, most of us use computers, so this > one seems appropriate. "True Names" by Vernor Vinge. Distant second -- "When Harlie Was One" by David Gerrold. > Most interesting/unusual: Maybe not exciting or a classic, but > has very unusual or interesting ideas. "Inverted World" by Christopher Priest. Strange & great. > Best series: The best series of books by same author (e.g. Dune, > Pern, etc.) "Amber" by Zelazny. No contest. > Best written: Just good writing that would stand up to any classic > in any type of literature. "Nova" by Samuel R. Delany. IMHO, his best. > Other books: Any other standouts you want to mention for whatever > reason. We did not mention fantasy yet -- so let's give credit to Michael Moorcock, especially for "The Warhound and the World's Pain" and "Gloriana". Also to Tanith Lee, the BEST fantasy author today, for "Death's Master", "Sabella", and many more -- she maintains a standard of quality that is hard to believe for someone so prolific. ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!srt@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Recent Reads Date: 19 Mar 86 05:59:23 GMT _Conscience Palace_ by (ur, I forget) This stunning view of a bleak future is one of the most powerful books I have read in some time. *This* is what makes science fiction so worthwhile - the ability to present an alternate reality that bears directly on the one we live in. This is the rarest of fiction - a book of vision so strong that by the light of what we are not we see more clearly what we are. _Conscience Palace_ is a heart-rending argument against nuclear proliferation and the society that condones it. And more, it is a love story. I daresay this will soon join my science fiction classics shelf, nestled alongside _Songmaster_ and _The Face in the Frost_. _Magician: Apprentice_ by Raymond E. Feist The cover blurb compares this to Tolkien, and while I'm finding the book enjoyable, I think that is overly-high praise. At any rate, comparing a new fantasy to Tolkien is like comparing a new singer to Dylan or Elvis - by-now meaningless industry hype. Still, there's nothing wrong with a well-crafted fantasy epic or two. This book has all the proper elements in the right combinations: a young man coming to manhood, invading army of preposterous size, a fellowship and so on. Say what you will about the _Chronicles of Thomas Covenant_ - I'll probably agree - but they were, at least for a while, a step away from the Tolkien mold. One thing annoys me about this book, and that is the scant characterization of Kulgan, the magician. Nominally one of the more interesting characters, he's given little attention and remains a cut-out. Scott R. Turner ARPA: (now) srt@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA (soon) srt@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU UUCP: ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt FISHNET: ...!{flounder,crappie,flipper}!srt@fishnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 21 Mar 1986 14:41:14-EST From: wyzansky@NADC Subject: Interstellar Merchant Book Request Answer > Can anybody suggest a novel or collection about life as a > Interstellar Merchant? I am a Traveller enthusiast and want to > find ideas for a gaming session. For a collection of stories, there is Poul Anderson's Polesotechnic League series (_Trader_to_the_Stars_, _The_Trouble_Twisters_, etc.). Heinlein's _Citizen_of_the_Galaxy_ has a section about a caste of Interstellar Traders, at least one ship of whom speak Finnish as a secret language (Was this ever developed or mentioned in any of his other books?). James Schmitz's _Witches_of_Karres_ has some interesting scenes about a merchant ship captain. The Okie Cities in Blish's Cities in Flight series are interstellar merchants on a grand scale. You might also find some ideas in Chandler's Commander Grimes series. I have never played the game so I can't be sure how useful these suggestions might be. Harold Wyzansky (wyzansky@nadc.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 86 13:09:40 PST (Sun) From: Dave Godwin Subject: Highlander Movie review: Highlander Nano-review: Good flick Micro-review: Good fantasy story, plot structures centering about Man-With- Unknown-Past, sword play, and a rock'n'roll sound track. Sean Connery didn't get enough screen time. Good acting all around, with one of the best done film bad guys I've ever seen. Darth Vader ain't got nothin' on this guy. Real-review (small spoiler warning): I don't have a newspaper in front of me, so I can't give you all the names of the stars or director or like that, but I will tell you about the movie. It stars the same gent who played Tarzan in Greystoke, with Sean Connery in a starring but secondary role. The movie begins with a sword duel in a New York parking structure, a fight between two men, one of which is the star of this film. During the fight, and through the rest of the movie, we get flash backs to Scotland in the 1500's, the place and time where our star was apparently born. His name is Collin MacCleod, and although we don't initially find out how, he is immortal. The flash backs make up a story within the actually plot of the film, showing how Sean Connery comes into MacCleod's life, and set up the conflict between MacCleod and the Bad Guy. The plot of the film stems from the efforts of a police criminologist trying to discover the whereabouts of the weapon that MacCleod used to kill his oppenent in the parking structure, slice up some concrete pillars, and in general wasted a few cars. See, from metal flakes she pulls out of the concrete pillars, she finds that the sword is very very weird, and sets out to track down the sword and it's owner; and so our story starts. ( Cue love interest between male and female leads. ) This is definitely a fantasy story, although not enough so that it detracts from the action and suspence of a tightly written plot and some darn fine combat coreography. The only serious downpoint of the movie is that the majority of the sound track was done by Queen. For 95% of the film this is not something that gets in the way of enjoying the film, and the point in the film where Queen twisted the score of "New York, New York" almost makes up for the noise of the opening credits. So go see it. I'm curious what the rest of you think of this one. Dave Godwin University of California, Irvine ------------------------------ From: felix!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Richards) Subject: Re: AMAZING STORIES Date: 19 Mar 86 21:37:15 GMT holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes: >But I really liked that Alfy Hitchcock episode with John Huston >where he bets this guy he can't light his lighter ten times in a >row at the cost of his little finger. I would have liked that episode (The Man From the South) better if I hadn't seen the original several times and read the story several more times. What is the deal with the Hitchcock show, anyway? Are they re-making the same stories just so they can use the original (colorized) introductions by Alf? Why not just colorize the whole show and replay it? Then they wouldn't have to hire actors, directors, etc. As long as I have broached the subject of remakes; Why do producers feel they have to remake a successful film every couple decades? The copies always end up being compared to the original, usually unfavorably. I can't think of too many examples offhand, but one is "A Star is Born". How many times has that been done? Three? Then there's "Frankenstein", "Dracula", etc., although I think most of those used slightly different titles each time, so maybe they don't count. I can't believe that good plots are that scarce. Let's see who can name the most remakes. (same plot, exact same title) Dave Richards ------------------------------ Date: 21 Mar 86 18:05:00 PST From: Subject: Alfred Hitchcock Presents from Bruce Holloway: >But I really liked that Alfy Hitchcock episode with John Huston >where he bets this guy he can't light his lighter ten times in a >row at the cost of his little finger. Why can't the Hollywood types find (and trust) some writers to come up with original ideas? That plot ( I don't watch the new Alfy series because of retreads like this) was one of the old B+W A. Hitchcock Presents stories. It starred Peter Lorre and, if my memory serves me well, somebody named Steve McQueen. Greg Goodknight ------------------------------ From: tektronix!larryk@caip.rutgers.edu (Larry Kohn) Subject: Re: Looking for SF short story Date: 20 Mar 86 20:35:42 GMT I don't recall a sf story like you describe, but will look through my library to see if something turns up. Interesting you should mention Twilight Zone. A few weeks ago I happened to catch the end of an old Twilight Zone episode similar to the story line you described. This involved a great-great-etc. grandson of President Kennedy. This relative, a historian and time traveler, got caught up in the tragedy of the assassination and somehow managed to cause it not to happen. Because a thing once done can't be undone without repercussions, it turns out Kruschev gets killed instead. This isn't the end of it, however. The change will eventually lead to a major confrontation between the super powers and an end to the world. So the relative goes back to before the assassination, meets with Kennedy, and explains it all to him. It ends with Kennedy going off to meet his destiny. Larry Kohn ------------------------------ Date: Fri 21 Mar 86 10:50:57-EST From: Wang Zeep Subject: World-Con '86 The folks at Confederation are *very* screwed up with the mail. They have lost my Writers' Workshop application, not sent me P.R.#3, my wife has not received P.R.#2 or #3, screwed up my address, etc. If you have not heard from them, you'd better write them now! Progress Report #3 is out with the hotel selection form, which should be returned ASAP if you want a choice. Their (latest that I have) Address Hotel Address Confederation Confederation Housing Suite 1986 233 Peachtree St. NE 3277 Roswell Road Suite 2000 Atlanta, GA 30305 Atlanta, GA 30043 The hotel info is long and complicated: 1) Which hotel do you want (Hilton or Marriot -- H. is better $ for small rooms, but there are other factors like Art Show/Dealers Room proximity) 2) Party or Quiet Blocking? 3) Handicapped Access needed? 4) Room size? 5) Arrival date and time? 6) Departure date and time? 7) Need guarantee for after 6 pm arrival? (I included my credit card # with this one -- you may not want to) Good luck. All of the above is simply as I or my wife has heard, and I will not be responsible for anything that may go wrong. Wang Zeep -- Badge #2226 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Mar 86 0949-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #51 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 24 Mar 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 51 Today's Topics: Books - Dick (2 msgs) & Heinlein & Lee & O'Donnell & Wolfe (2 msgs) & Bad Books & Sagamore's Curse, Television - The Twilight Zone & Dr. Who, Miscellaneous - Science Fiction & Harper's Article ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1986 09:36 EST From: Rob MacLachlan Subject: Radio Free Albemuth Radio Free Albemuth is a different book fom VALIS. I think it is set in a different universe as well, although I don't remember VALIS well enough to be sure of that. The main source of adversity in RFA is an alternate Nixon who effectively takes over the U.S. in the name of anti-communism, while being a closet communist himself. RFA is definitely related to VALIS. It has pink beams of light and all that. I think that RFA is not outstanding for a Dick book, but it is definitely worth reading. Dick's later books such as VALIS and The Divine Invasion are quite different from most of his other stuff; people who have read some Dick and didn't like it should try VALIS. Rob ------------------------------ From: drutx!slb@caip.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden) Subject: Re: Is P. K. Dick among the living? Date: 17 Mar 86 17:55:01 GMT >>.... Philip Dick is also wonderful, but he's not writing much >>these days.... >How do you know? Just because he's not getting much published >doesn't mean he's not writing (as I know to my regret.) Maybe the >mail service is not very efffective from where he is? I happen to know that PKD is in Fort Morgan, Colorado. And yes, the mail service from that place is very bad. Think it all goes through Pueblo or something. One good thing--PKD is in exactly the correct state to enjoy a place like Fort Morgan. If you've been there, you know what I mean. (Although it does have the only McDonalds between Denver and McCook, Nebraska. I've been there often, and that's its high point.) (Note to anyone out there from Ft. M--my home town is worse, so no offense. We don't even have any famous dead people in residence.) Sue Brezden ihnp4!drutx!slb ------------------------------ From: puff!anich@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Anich) Subject: Re: Heinlein's latest (Spoiler) Date: 22 Mar 86 07:26:51 GMT > From: Judy Anderson > The Cat Who Walks Through Walls was a REALLY great book... Up > until about 1/2 way through, when it degenerated into the > universe from The Number Of The Beast. ... I must agree. I found the ending quite chaotic and confusing. Did anyone else who read the book get the impresion that the ending actually was the killing off of Lazurus, Hazel, and the characters from his other stories? steve anich ------------------------------ From: atari!neil@caip.rutgers.edu (Neil Harris) Subject: Re: Highly Recommended! Date: 22 Mar 86 02:10:22 GMT eliovson@aecom2.UUCP writes: > Death's Master by Tanith Lee > Allow me to recommend to all lovers of powerful narrative > this fine book. ... > Well, it certainly deserves some revisiting. Why you ask? Truly a great book. But don't miss the first book (Night's Master), the third one (Delusion's Master), and a promised fourth one. Each volume stands alone very well, and all are very worthwhile. Tanith Lee is the _best_ fantasy writer currently practising. Her demons are truly demonic. ------------------------------ From: reed!lauran@caip.rutgers.edu (Laura Nepveu) Subject: Re: CAVERNS by Kevin O'Donnell, Jr. (mild spoiler) Date: 21 Mar 86 03:23:15 GMT duane@anasazi.UUCP (Duane Morse) writes: >The complete title of the book is "The Journeys of McGill Feighan >Book I: Caverns". > >I give the book 3.0 stars (very good) and look forward to others in >the series. The others are out in paperback and are The Journeys of McGill Feighan Book II: Reefs Book III: Lava Book IV: Cliffs I'm sure there will be more. I also highly recommend these books (4 out of 4). The main character is handled very well in that his powers don't increase until he can conquer the universe single handed. The problems he faces he has to solve without the aid of deus ex machina. McGill's growing up and maturing are handled very well. The emotional problems he faces are dealt with realistically and are often the center of the book. McGill is loyal to his friends but not always vice versa. I spent alot of time in the first book wondering who would betray him next. Another Kevin O'Donnell, Jr. Books I liked was _Oracle_. A story that has an excellent demonstration of the net when it becomes omnipresent. Good adventure too. Has anyone read his other books? Any comments? Laura Nepveu ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 22 Mar 1986 03:49:30-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: CASTLE OF THE OTTER > From: Steve Dennett > I'm interested in obtaining Wolfe's "Castle of the Otter" at a > reasonable price (i.e., not a collector's edition). Does anyone > know if it ever came out in paperback, No, it hasn't. > or was ever offered by the Science Fiction Book Club? (If the > latter, do you have the order number? I wrote them about this, > but received no response.) Yes, it was offered by the SFBC, but I don't have the order number. > Finally, who put out the regular hardcover edition? Mark Zeising, a dealer in Willimantic, Connecticut. It was a small press, limited edition publication, since sold out. Zeising was also the original publisher of two other Gene Wolfe books, THE WOLFE ARCHIPELAGO and LIVE, FREE, LIVE. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!wombat@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun Date: 19 Mar 86 03:45:00 GMT Gene Wolfe himself will sell you signed editions by mail. An old Science Fiction Chronicle laying around here lists his *Books of Days* for $16 (hardback, first edition, signed) from Gene Wolfe, POB 69, Barrington, IL 60010. If you can find an issue of SFC or Locus they have lots of advertising from mail-order firms. Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: bad bad books Date: 19 Mar 86 02:31:17 GMT Actually, I think you are looking for too popular a series. It was discussed on a panel at a science fiction convention (gad, I forget the detail who said it or at what convention). I think it turned out it was Prescot of Antares. Not a giant series but one that sticks around. Supposedly it is written by a better known author under the penname of Akers. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: reed!lauran@caip.rutgers.edu (Laura Nepveu) Subject: Re: _Belgariad_ review (really _Sagamore's Curse_) Date: 20 Mar 86 22:47:28 GMT anich@puff.UUCP (Steve Anich) writes: >Roger Crew writes: >>The young hero truds along to fullfill a prophecy in which he >>becomes uncorruptable at its conclusion. (I did just read a novel >>that threw these out -- it was called ** Sagamore's Curse ** ,but >>it isn't the size of a multi-volumed story). I wish somebody would >>write a good story that examened the various shades of gray. > > I also have trouble with these endings in which EVERYBODY gets > MARRIED. > >steve anich >anich@puff.UUCP I recommend _Sagamore's Curse_. It is definitely not the usual prophecy story. I wished it had fulfilled a bit more of the potential it had for humor, but it was amusing enough as it was. Perhaps one of the more practiced reviewers would review this book. Laura Nepveu ------------------------------ From: inuxd!jody@caip.rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross) Subject: Re: Arthur C. Clarke on TWILIGHT ZONE? Date: 18 Mar 86 21:01:28 GMT > I heard somewhere that TWILIGHT ZONE had done an adaptation of AC > Clarke's "The Star". Is it true? Did they make the narrator a > Jesuit priest, as in the story? I'm wondering if it's worth > waiting for the rerun. > >Mike Caplinger >mike@bellcore.arpa >ihnp4!bambi!mike I saw "The Star" on TWILIGHT ZONE. It was around Christmas. In the opening credits it said an "adaptation of Arthur C. Clarke." Well I almost turned it off right then and there, but curiosity made me want to see it. I was afraid of what they would do. I dearly loved the short story, and didn't want to see the destruction television would do to it. I was pleasantly surprised. As I recall in the short story, the Jesuit priest is recalling what had just happened. In the show it was done as it took place--no flash backs. Also the priest was not brought out as a Jesuit priest. They called him Father and I think it was mentioned once that he was a Jesuit but not much more. It showed, however, the priest conflict about his faith, (ie, "How could God do this"). The ending was the only disappointment. As I remember the story left it with the priest wondering why the nova had happened. The show try to resolve this, and though I liked the solution, I didn't want that kind of ending. When I voiced my grievance to my friend, she said "it's Christmas, you don't want a sad ending." All in all, I have to say "The Star" is worth seeing. jody ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 86 01:29:49 CST From: William LeFebvre Subject: Re: Doctor Who's companions acf4!percus@caip.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus) > Well, I don't know. Personally, the chemistry between Sarah Jane > Smith and The Doctor always convinced me that there was something > else going on inside the TARDIS :-) Well......what about the chemistry between The Doctor and Romana II (Lalla Ward)? That was very evident (and there was more to it than just appearances, too!). Romana II is my personal favorite, I guess because the two actors got along so well---the interaction between the characters was smooth, really excellent. Of course, I haven't seen all the companions; just all the recent ones (the earliest one I have seen is Jo Grant). As for Peri: from what I have seen of her I put her at the bottom of the list. From the very first episode she struck me as a sniveling, whining, sassy, female. So, you netters expressing similar feelings (like "bowl of jello") aren't alone! Every other companion I have seen had some redeeming quality somewhere. I haven't found Peri's yet. William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University ------------------------------ From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: It Came From Net.Space!!! Date: 19 Mar 86 22:52:30 GMT Interesting stuff on net.space (key on Science Fiction): jimb@ism780 writes: >> Speaking as one who has been reading sci-fi since starting on >> Lucky Starr at a very tender age, I have to say that the vast >> majority of sci-fi authors *do not* know what they are talking >> about. The four authors quoted [ME] >There are all sorts of aims and intentions in writing SF; these >vary with the author and with the individual work. As a novice sf >writer (two miniscule sales), I don't care about getting the >science correct to N decimal places. a I think you are much better off worrying about plot, acharacterization nd language. >A sense of vision. The *details* of colonies in space, alien >contact, human/computer interfaces, -- your plot here --, may be >incorrect at points, but the important aspect of sf *for me* is to >present the broad brushstrokes of the implications of --- the plot >of your choice ---. To write hard sf, as YES! But remember, if your fiction claims to be especially "scientific" and so immune to criticism just as fiction (which I assume is the case with Forward, since he can't write) then be prepared to have it judged as science! I just recently mentioned "The Protector" by Niven. Wonderful book, with nice hard-sf relativistic space battles. But of course, the fundamental premise does not make sense. So what? It's a lovely idea! >so it can be done. He's also one of the rare individuals that >writes sf full So for many of us, scientific detail will not be >completely accurate. SO WHAT? (Ah, to speak heresy on the net.) >I don't think the purpose of SF is to give a scientific education. >There are textbooks aplenty for that. Right, right, right. But if people say "X" knows his/her science, and "X" doesn't seem to, I think it is appropriate to point out that textbooks and scientists are a better place to find out about science than fiction. >Now I am NOT arguing for the Bradbury-esque anything-goes approach >to sf, though that, too, has its place -- as fantasy. I agree, "hard"-sf even when not accurate in EVERY detail is still enjoyable (at least by me). I don't enjoy having my own field (mathematics, number theory in particular) treated as not even being worth the trouble of researching to get it right by someone who is passed off as ultra-hard sf (Forward, again). I wouldn't even care about the same kind of dumbness from Bradbury. Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 86 01:41:39 est From: jbvb@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (James B. VanBokkelen) Subject: Re: Harpers I shan't attempt to argue with the author in detail, as that would require re-reading the piece. However, he seems wedged on at least two major points. First, he states that the promise of SF was to deal with the future and the impossible. Then, he criticizes the descriptive nature of much SF. He can have his cake or eat it, not both. If the environment isn't one that everyone lives in every day, and it matters to the story at all, the differences must be mentioned somewhere. If jargon is used, and the differences are never really described, then you encounter the same problem the author did with the Delany book he complains about later. If the environment doesn't matter, only then are descriptions of any sort unnecessary, and the book needn't have been written as SF anyway. Second, the author seems not to have noticed that we are living in a world where a man with the power to start a nuclear war makes jokes about it as a warm up for a TV show. A world where we haven't learned to live close together, and the population is heading for 6 billion. Now, admittedly, the Great American Novel as a genre seems to be much more interested in angst and analysis than the condition of people living even two miles away in the wrong direction, but this doesn't excuse his pooh-poohing other's concerns. Myself, I read SF as a window onto other's imaginations. I particularly like detailed, well-drawn aliens, with personality patterns and motivations you've never seen in _People_. I like to consider possible planets, biologies, engineering projects. If I ever get my own future history sketched to the point where I can find a good short story in it, I may even try writing SF. I have never felt any interest in writing mainstream fiction, partly because I don't want to cram my imagination into what I feel to be a well-established, rigid set of molds. The conventional fiction I read is either old (which gives me much better insights into how things were when it was written than any but the best history books), or somewhat strange in viewpoint (Tom Robbins' _Jitterbug Perfume_ is the only non-SF fiction written this decade that I'ver read so far this year). I don't have much use for the Great American Novel. I am living it (or trying to avoid doing so), and I can see others doing the same in real time whenever I open my eyes. jbvb@borax.lcs.mit.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Mar 86 1005-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #52 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 24 Mar 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 52 Today's Topics: Books - Bradley & Eddings & Saberhagen & Vonnegut & Fantasy Author Recommentations & Book Query, Films - The Day the Earth Stood Still, Miscellaneous - Worldcon '86 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gsg!kathy@caip.rutgers.edu (Kathryn Smith) Subject: Re: Fantasy Author Recommendations Date: 20 Mar 86 15:36:10 GMT There was a small note in Science Fiction Chronicle a couple of months ago that Marion Zimmer Bradley had sold what I'm guessing is a collection of Lythande stories (the tentative title given was Lythande). I don't recall the publisher off hand, but if anyone wants to know send me mail and I can look it up. Kathryn Smith (...decvax!gsg!kathy) General Systems Group, Inc. Salem, NH ------------------------------ From: magic!b2@caip.rutgers.edu (Bryan Bingham) Subject: The Belgariad (long, with spoilers) Date: 20 Mar 86 03:43:31 GMT My $.02 about the Belgariad: Enjoyable and entertaining at several levels, but has some serious flaws one must be willing to overlook in order to achieve maximum satisfaction. Since the first article about this 5-book series appeared a couple of weeks ago, I took the opportunity to re-read a few of the volumes to see if I could glean more from them than I had the last time I read them. What motivated me was the line in the 'About the Author' section in each book that goes: "...and he turned to the Belgariad in an effort to develop certain technical and philosophical ideas concerning that genre." So, what are these technical and philosophical ideas? I have some opinions, and I think that other sf-lovers have discovered most of them, pointing them out either as strengths or flaws. 1. The plot of the entire series is more or less transparent and easy to discern just from reading the Prologue of the first book, Pawn of Prophecy. This is just the way most myth cycles and legends are: everybody knows what is going to happen to whom when -- everybody knows Odin bites the big one at Ragnarok, Hercules walks the dog Cerberus, Troy falls, Odysseus returns, etc. Knowing the ending doesn't necessarily spoil the fun. 2. The Prophecy that guides the lives of the characters is known by them but not understood. Like the reader, the characters (at least a few of them) know something about what is going to happen, but not exactly, and are sometimes surprised by how the obvious actually occurs. That the story revolves around 2 competing Prophecies, both equally valid until the final resolution, is interesting, but Eddings doesn't do much with it besides tell us about it -- we never get to see inside the Angarak's or Zedar's heads like we do Garion and Ce'Nedra. 3. Supernatural phenomenon practiced by humans comes in several forms, different and not overlapping. Magic in the books is explored in some detail, with the most emphasis placed on 'sorcery'. The practitioner simply wills things to happen and succeeds if his will is strong enough, with certain conditions and limitations. A very interesting idea, and Eddings does a good job with Garion as he comes to grips with his own power, but essentially he cops out because he never explains how Garion manages to understand how to turn dried grass and twigs into a flower, or separates mind from body. Belgarath and the other sorcerors had thousands of years of study to figure out how things work and how to change things, but Garion is just able to do it. Karma I suppose. Also, there are some contradictory statements made. Sorcerors aren't supposed to be able to duplicate each other's more sophisticated efforts, or undo what another has done, but this just doesn't seem right. Surely Belgarion could go back to Torak's digs and resurrect old Zedar if he wanted to -- just dig up the earth and scrape until he found the bugger. Also, shape-shifting is pretty sophisticated, yet they all can do it, and there is nothing to prevent sorcerors from taking any form they wish. So why do they stick to owls and wolves when they could be Eldraks and dragons when the chips are down? Polgara is discouraged from going after Asharak in owl shape because her feathers were too soft for the stiff breeze. Why didn't she take off as a swift then and transmute to eagle once she got the drop on the turkey, er, raven? Why? Because the plot/Prophecy demanded that Garion avenge himself on the hapless fellow a few pages later. Weak excuse. Human flight is also not mentioned though it seems to me to be an obvious application of translocation. Witchcraft and 'magic' (demon summoning) are mentioned but are not really important to the story as a whole. Are there other types of magic? Why was it necessary to mention them at all? Tolkien does wonderfully keeping magic in the background and not introducing characters that raise more questions then they answer, although Eddings tries for a less epic and more earthy feeling for his world and in this he succeeds. Maybe characters such as Vordai and the Morindim will play a greater part in future books set in the same world. 4. Each nation/people has characteristic traits, both physical and cultural, that are often carried to stereotypical extremes. The characters manage to visit each country at least once and see how the inhabitants of that country live. Tolnedrans are lovers of money, intrigue, order, and pleasure; Nyssans are reminiscent of reptiles, etc. I also noted that the geography of the Alorns and West is somewhat like that of Europe, and that the nations that occupy the various countries sometimes resemble their equivalent European cultures. For example: Riva -- England/Scotland/Wales -- music loving, grey-clad, upright and somewhat drab exteriors Cherek -- Scandinavia -- vikings Sendaria -- Low Countries -- mixed bag, very thrifty, practical, sober, industrious. Arendia -- France/Southern Germany -- romantic, chivalric virtues, honor above all, civil wars. Tolnedra -- Italy -- Intrigue, great noble houses, love of money, commerce, pleasure. Ulgoland -- Switzerland. Withdrawn, pious, wealthy, mountainous. Drasnia -- Finland/Latvian -- tricky, mercantile, secretive, either small and skinny or prone to fatness. Algaria -- Steppes -- horses, moving tribes. Of course American Indians might be a better fitting culture for these types. Anyway, the rest of the countries don't fit so well, although one can make some guesses about his inspiration for Mishrak ak Thull (Poland/Balkans?), Gar og Nadrak (Ukraine?/French Canada/Alaska), and Mallorea (China/Mongolia). Cthol Murgos reminds me of the Aztecs at their worst. Nyissa and Maragor don't lend themselves to this type of quantification, although an anthropologist or historian might be able to point out some parallels with less well-known cultures. The king/ruler of each country somehow contains much of essence of the entire nation in his person -- they are the archtypes of their race. The personalities of the main supporting characters too seem to be almost completely determined by their particular race. This is a problem I have with the entire series; he stereotypes his supporting characters early, and doesn't have them grow nearly as much as Garion does. They tell the same jokes, say the same things using exactly the same phrases in book 5 as they do in book 1. Sometimes the humor in the books comes off well, and you laugh, but when you read essentially the same lines 500 pages later, it isn't so funny any more. I feel the weakest character in the entire series is Polgara. Eddings expects us to believe that she is a 4000+ year old virgin with a very prudish attitude about sex and the proprieties. Yet she is called the Flower of Womanhood, with great knowledge of medicines, herbs, cooking, and sewing. I found her vanity and narrow-mindedness unconvincing and unappealing. Perhaps her coldness is her defense against the millennia of death and destruction she has witnessed. Perhaps she was sexually frustrated like no woman has ever been because of the Prophecy and she buried her frustration by developing a contempt for men. Belgarath comes off very well for what he is, the Eternal Man, implacably working toward a goal only he and others like him can understand, letting nothing stand in his way, but capable of human feelings and emotions that he isn't afraid to show when it suits him. He is warm and good-hearted while Polgara comes off as waspish. Garion is by far the best character. I really enjoyed his struggles to grow up amid terrible danger with terrible powers that frightened him more than anything else. Ce'Nedra was well done too, but less sympathetic and she didn't seem to grow and change as much as Garion. Well, I'm starting to ramble so I'll stop now. I do recommend these books -- they are some of a very few books I've read many times; basically because Garion is a good, fully developed character and the shortcomings of the other characters are hid by the fast action and strange happenings that keep you guessing even though you know how its all going to turn out. I have some ideas about the next series, if any. Clues seem to be scattered about all 5 books -- Errand, the colt, the twins, the child of Relg and Taiba (the new Gorim of course), perhaps fenlings... It would be too much to hope for all the books to be published at once, so I'm prepared to endure months of waiting between books. Hope you are too. b2@bellcore ihnp4!bellcore!b2 ------------------------------ From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: THE FRANKENSTEIN PAPERS by Fred Saberhagen Date: 19 Mar 86 17:21:45 GMT THE FRANKENSTEIN PAPERS by Fred Saberhagen Baen, 1986 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper Saberhagen did such a wonderful job with his "Dracula" series (THE HOLMES-DRACULA FILE, AN OLD FRIEND OF THE FAMILY, THORN, and DOMINION, as well as THE DRACULA TAPE) that I was eagerly looking forward to this novel. What a disappointment! Told in the dual first-person (half by Benjamin Franklin's son, half by the monster), it suffers from the division of point-of-view. Had the monster told the entire tale it might have been better. The addition of Franklin seems to be more so that famous personages can be discussed than for any real dramatic reason. And the denouement is both predictable and disappointing. Read Saberhagen's "Dracula" books, but skip this one. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl (or ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl) ------------------------------ From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: GALAPAGOS by Kurt Vonnegut Date: 19 Mar 86 17:20:04 GMT GALAPAGOS by Kurt Vonnegut Delacorte Press, 1985 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper I really enjoyed this book. The fact that I read it in the Galapagos has nothing to do with it. :-) GALAPAGOS is the story of the "beginning of the human race" in 1986, told a million years in the future by a ghost who has seen it all. It starts in Guayaquil, Ecuador's major port and largest city. The BAHIA DE DARWIN is about to set sail on "The Nature Cruise of the Century" to the Galapagos Islands. Originally scheduled to carry the great (or at least the famous) personages of our time, it has been reduced by financial crisis, economic collapse, and threats of war to carrying ten passengers and a captain to fulfill their destiny as the ancestors of the "human race." The "human race" in this book is a race of fur-covered seal-like descendants of what we think of as the human race (which the narrator refers to as the "big-brains"). The picture of Guayaquil gradually sinking into chaos as the world situation degenerates is well drawn. Vonnegut has traveled to Guayaquil and the Galapagos and it shows. (One minor quibble--the Galapagos has no vampire finches such as he describes. On islands populated mostly by birds and reptiles, what would they feed off? Vonnegut is certainly allowed this literary license; I just feel obliged to point out that it IS literary license.) Anyway, our cast of characters includes a drunken captain, a middle- aged widow, a slick con artist, a Japanese couple, a millionaire, his daughter and her seeing-eye dog, and six Kanka-Bono girls who speak no English or Spanish. How they come together and how they produce "the human race" is reminiscent of Stapledon's LAST AND FIRST MEN, though considerably shorter. (I realize I have listed more than the ten passengers I mentioned earlier. They don't all make it to the ship; Vonnegut tells you this from the start.) The device of the first-person ghostly narrator has an interesting effect in that, although the attitude of the narrator is clear, Vonnegut's opinions are not so clear. Does he believe (as the narrator does) that the "big-brains" were stupid and useless and an evolutionary dead-end? Or does he have the narrator present these ideas in such a manner that the reader is supposed to see how wrong they are? How you interpret GALAPAGOS will depend in large part on how you perceive mankind, technology, and progress. Read it and decide for yourself. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl (or ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl) ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!wombat@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Fantasy Author Recommendations Date: 19 Mar 86 03:40:00 GMT If you like dark fantasy, hunt around for John Collier (*Fancies and Goodnights* and *The Best of John Collier* are two good short story collections). For science and dark fantasy, try vintage Ray Bradbury. For just plain weird, read some R.A. Lafferty (start with short stories, the novels aren't for the uninitiated). And a strong recommendation for John Crowley's *Little, Big*. Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat ------------------------------ From: oucs!joe@caip.rutgers.edu (Joseph Judge) Subject: Query for netlanders!? Date: 19 Mar 86 16:58:10 GMT Remember the original Thieves World books (before the Beysibs)?? Ever read Robt. Lynn Asprin's Myth series books ???? Well those are the books that I just couldn't stop reading - until they ran out. Any suggestions of other books (or short stories (I like them,too)) that are along the genre that I could read ???? Thanks, Joseph Judge ihnp4!{amc1,cbdkc1,cbosgd,cuuxb,}!oucs!joe ------------------------------ From: mmm!mrgofor@caip.rutgers.edu (MKR) Subject: Klaatu Barada Nicotine Date: 17 Mar 86 19:32:54 GMT I just watched "The Day the Earth Stood Still" last night for the first time in a long while. There was one scene in it that was unbelievably funny, although I don't think they meant it. It went something like this: Klaatu, the man from outer space, was shot and wounded and was brought to Walter Reed Hospital. He's in a hospital room, and in the outer room, two doctors are discussing this strange being: Doctor 1: "His body is human, just like ours." Doctor 2: "Except that he's 78 years old, and he doesn't look more than about thirty." Doctor 1: "They have a much longer lifespan than we do. Why?" Doctor 2: (taking out a pack of cigarettes and offering one to the other doc) "Their medicine must be much more advanced than ours." Doctor 1: (taking one of the cigarettes) "Yeah." Okay, that's not verbatim, but rent the videotape and watch it - it's a pretty good movie anyway. MKR ------------------------------ From: mcnc!jeff@caip.rutgers.edu (Jeffrey Copeland) Subject: Re: Rooms at Worldcon Date: 21 Mar 86 16:56:06 GMT I can't find a reply to this question, so: Hotel reservation forms for ConFederation were sent in PR3, which arrived on our doorstep the second week in March. Rates are: single double triple quad Hilton: $59 $69 $79 $89 Marriot: $76 $76 $76 $76 Apparently the hotels *cannot* make reservations for the convention themselves; reservations must be made through the Atlanta Convention and Visitors Bureau at 233 Peachtree St, Suite 2000, Atlanta GA 30043 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Mar 86 0923-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #53 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 25 Mar 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 53 Today's Topics: Books - Bear & Bulmer & Card & DeChancie & Heinlein & Tolkien & Williamson & Merchant Books & Favorite Books (2 msgs) & SF's Old Guard, Films - The Day the Earth Stood Still, Television - SF TV Shows, Miscellaneous - A Request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU Subject: "Blood Music" mini-review Date: 21 Mar 86 09:38:08 GMT I just finished "Blood Music" by Greg Bear, in the Ace paperback version which has just come out. It has my warm indorsement. The cover compares it to "Childhood's End", which is apt in some ways; other possible comparisons would be to "Clay's Ark" and to (in a few scenes) "Solaris". It is well written, has interesting ideas, and looks to me a likely candidate to garner some prize(s). Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC Subject: re: bad bad books Date: 22 Mar 86 11:55:48 GMT > From: mtgzz!leeper (Mark Leeper) > Actually, I think you are looking for too popular a series. It > was discussed on a panel at a science fiction convention (gad, I > forget the detail who said it or at what convention). I think it > turned out it was Prescot of Antares. Not a giant series but one > that sticks around. Supposedly it is written by a better known > author under the penname of Akers. The author of the Dray Prescott series is Kenneth Bulmer. There is a rather funny, apocryphal story concerning how he was "found out". It seems that at some British sf convention, a well-known fan pissed Bulmer off. A couple of Prescott books later, a character matching the description of said fan was done in in a most brutal manner. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU Subject: Ender's Game review Date: 22 Mar 86 11:04:50 GMT Ender's Game As a part of a revolting two-day orgy of SF reading, I have just finished "Ender's Game" by Orson Scott Card. This is a definite step or two up from "Hot Sleep". "Ender's Game" is a potpourri of SF cliches, but quite well done. It has the lone little genius against the world (or is he?) of "Slan", the BEM's like those in "Starship Troopers", military training scenes and space battles. But the writing is always adequate and sometimes good (the computer-generated fantasies are especially interesting). The tension level of overcoming conflict and opposition is consistently high. One amusing feature is a plot to take over the world by two teen-agers using the future's version of the USENET. Net.people ought to read it for this alone, I guess. It has other nice things. It has plot twists near the end. One I anticipated only by checking the number of pages remaining, the other I couldn't get aside from the fact that there had to be something. If you liked "Starship Troopers" or Timothy Zahn's "Cobra", you should like "Ender's Game". I thought it was better than either. Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ucbvax!weyl!gsmith ------------------------------ From: wcom!frodo@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: John DeChancie books Date: 20 Mar 86 03:45:36 GMT Having read 'Star Rigger', and 'Red Limit Freeway' by John De Chancie, both in 4 hours each of straight reading, I'm anxious to see if another sequel comes out. The ending of R.L.F. leaves you wanting more, and sets you up for another one... I checked the publishing dates, and Star Rigger was published 12/83, Red Limit Freeway, 12/84, so I would expect the next one 12/85. Does anyone know if another in the series exists, or whether/when one will? Please respond via E-mail, as I don't always read this group. Jim Scardelis, SA {hjuxa,ihnp4}!wcom!frodo ------------------------------ From: bucsb!odin@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Heinlein's latest (Spoiler) Date: 23 Mar 86 15:50:49 GMT I agree with the reviews of the two previous posters to this net on The Cat Who Walks Through Walls, but as a friend of mine noted to me, and I find myself agreeing with him, it seems that Heinlein is heading towards some grand cosmic conclusion to his whole Number of the Beast Universe. I will wade through as many of his books as I have to to get to it. And no, there is no way that Lazarus and bunch have gotten killed off. Ben Page CSNET: odin%bucsb@bu-cs ARPANET: odin%bucsb%bu-cs@csnet-relay UUCP: ...harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!odin BITNET: odin%bucsb%bu-cs%csnet-relay.arpa@wiscvm ------------------------------ From: udenva!showard@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: FLAME to defend literature from Dumbbells Date: 23 Mar 86 00:49:52 GMT Michael Krantz tries to defend Gene Wolfe by writing: >Only Tolkien is comparable. Only Lord of the Rings. Having not read Wolfe, I will only say this: Do you really want to hold Tolkien up as the paragon of fantasy literature? Much as I hate to agree with (ick) Gary Gygax, I must opine that The Lord of the Rings is about 50 pages of plot in gods-know-how-many pages of description, with an allegory so obvious Tolkien had to deny it in the forward. It's overwritten, overdecorated, and overrated. So there. {hplabs, seismo}!hao!udenva!showard or {boulder, cires, ucbvax!nbires, cisden}!udenva!showard ------------------------------ From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: WONDER'S CHILD by Jack Williamson Date: 19 Mar 86 17:22:11 GMT WONDER'S CHILD by Jack Williamson Bluejay, 1984 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper This rather quirky autobiography has a lot going for it. For one thing, it's unselfconscious; Williamson doesn't suffer from the ego one sees in (for example) Asimov's IN MEMORY YET GREEN. For another, Williamson has led a long and interesting life, though his experiences outside of science fiction are far more interesting than those within it. If Williamson seems to gloss over the specifics of writing this story or that--well, how well could you describe events and feelings after a gap of forty years or so? WONDER'S CHILD won the Hugo as Best Non-Fiction Book of 1984. Some of that might have been due to an urge to honor someone who may very well be science fiction's oldest living author (I can think of no living science fiction author published before Williamson), but don't let that put you off. WONDER'S CHILD is well worth reading. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl (or ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl) ------------------------------ From: uok!jibharjo@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Merchant book wanted Date: 18 Mar 86 21:33:00 GMT I don't know if this will help you, but it just might. I'm sure you have heard of Asimov's "Foundation" trilogy. Well, in the first book, "Foundation", towards the end is a part called 'The Merchant Princes'. It is about Hober Mallow, a merchant. This may or may not give you some ideas. But it looks at the attitude of merchants and what their about. Jim Harjo University of Oklahoma ------------------------------ From: smeagol!ross@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Favorite SF Books Date: 21 Mar 86 19:43:42 GMT wampler@unmvax.UUCP (Bruce Wampler) writes: > This has likely been done before, but not too recently, > and probably not in exactly this way. I'd like to see what > people's favorite SF books are. I know I can't give just one > book, so I've come up with the following categorizations: > All Time Favorite: Dune by Frank Herbert > Favorite author: Larry Niven > Hardest to put down: Orion by Ben Bova > Best with computers: The Two Faces of Tomorrow by James Hogan This is the most credible science fiction story involving Artificial Intelligence that I have ever seen. The plot is a little simplistic but it is a good story nonetheless. > Most interesting/unusual: Blood Music by Greg Bear About a genetic engineer who creates an intelligent one-cell organism. I don't know about the validity of the biology in the story but I found the concept unique and interesting. > Best series: The Foundation series by Asimov The Known Space Series by Larry Niven > Best written: Dune by Frank Herbert > Other books: Startide Rising by David Brin The Postman by David Brin Gary Ross JPL Spacecraft Data Systems group sdcrdcf!smeagol!ross (UUCP) ia-sun2!smeagol!ross@csvax.caltech.edu (ARPA) ------------------------------ From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Favorite SF Books Date: 23 Mar 86 07:28:36 GMT > All Time Favorite: Lord of the Rings, by Tolkien. I always find time to reread it about once a year. Honorable mention: Martian Chronicles, by Ray Bradbury; Dying Inside, by Silverbob. > Favorite author: Spider Robinson > Hardest to put down: In recent days, the Belgariad by Eddings (all five books ) that got finished over a period of about 2.5 days including a three book stretch ending at 8AM. The only books that keep me reading late on a re-read, though, is LOTR, and Dying Inside another commentary on their quality. > Best with computers: 2001: a Space Oddysey, by A.C. Clarke Honorable mention: Star Fire, by Ingo Swann (good luck tracking THIS down, but a must read for ARPAnauts...) > Most interesting/unusual: a VERY general topic, unfortunately. Most interesting people study: Dying Inside. Most unusual book I've ever read: Ubik, by PKD (even stranger because the strangeness fits) > Best series: Series of Novels: LOTR, of course. Honorable mention to Gene Wolfe Series of stories: Callahan's Bar, by Spider Robinson Honorable mention: Martian Chronicles, by Bradbury. > Best written: Book of the New Sun, by Gene Wolfe Honorable mentions: LOTR, by Tolkien; Martian Chronicles, by Bradbury. > Other books: Oh, gack -- come see my library someday.... *grin* Chuq Von Rospach chuqi%plaid@sun.ARPA FidoNet: 125/84 CompuServe: 73317,635 {decwrl,decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo,ucbvax}!sun!plaid!chuq ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC Subject: SF's Old Guard Date: 22 Mar 86 13:38:43 GMT > From: mtgzy!ecl (Evelyn C. Leeper) > WONDER'S CHILD won the Hugo as Best Non-Fiction Book of 1984. > Some of that might have been due to an urge to honor someone who > may very well be science fiction's oldest living author (I can > think of no living science fiction author published before > Williamson)... Certainly an interesting point to consider. I started wondering if that was true, so I wrote up a list of other sf authors who I thought might be in the running for that distinction. I then went through Reginald's SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY LITERATURE [VOLUME 2: AUTHOR BIOGRAPHIES] (1979) looking for relevant data, also keeping an eye out for other big names that I might have forgotten. Of course, there are at least two variables to consider here: (1) Was the author in question born before Williamson? and (2) Was the author published before Williamson? There was another point to consider as well: should I include those authors who, while having published *some* sf/fantasy, are primarily mainstream authors (eg. Isaac Bashevis Singer)? I decided no. Purists should note that I consider "sf" to include all forms of fantastic literature. In any case, even where the authors in question primarily write horror or supernatural fantasy, they have written a goodly amount of "real" science fiction. My final list looked like this, ordered by birth date (I list those born before 1910): Birth Date First SF Publication (1) E. Hoffmann Price 3 Jul 1898 1925 Jan (Weird Tales) * (2) Curt Siodmak 10 Aug 1902 1926 Jul (Amazing) ** (3) Frank Belknap Long 27 Apr 1903 1924 Nov (Weird Tales) (4) Manly Wade Wellman 21 May 1903 1927 Nov (Weird Tales) (5) Clifford Simak 3 Aug 1904 1931 Dec (Wonder St.) (6) Robert A. Heinlein 7 Jul 1907 1939 Aug (Astounding) (7) L. Sprague de Camp 27 Nov 1907 1937 Sep (Astounding) (8) Jack Williamson 29 Apr 1908 1928 Dec (Amazing) (9) Carl Jacobi 10 Jul 1908 1932 Jan (Weird Tales) (10) Neil R. Jones 29 May 1909 1930 Jan (Air Wonder) (11) Fritz Leiber, Jr. 24 Dec 1910 1939 Aug (Unknown) * His actual first publication was in DROLL STORIES (5/24). ** This was a translation of a story previously published in German. With the possible exception of Siodmak and Jones (they are retired if not dead --- I cannot find death dates for any of them though), all of the above are still alive and writing. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ From: sally!jcw@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Klaatu Barada Nicotine Date: 21 Mar 86 23:48:53 GMT >[Klaatu Barada Nicotine] Well, I think they DID mean for that juxtaposition. Movies from the late Fifties and early Sixties were always trying to convey messages, either obvious or not. Longer life span/cigarette smoking were contradictory. Although no documented evidence was out on smoking and cancer, many doctors suspected as much.... Anyway, yes! it's a classic!!! See you at the movies, Cary DiWhay ------------------------------ From: sdcc6!ix312@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: SciFi TV shows; American vs. others Date: 21 Mar 86 18:06:37 GMT Hi guys, I got a question for you. Recently I got into a discussion with some friends about science fiction TV shows. We were comparing American shows with those from other English speaking countries. I, of course, made some points very well (strike that, very loudly and decidedly), and now I am trying to get some facts to back them up. What I need is a list of shows and a brief synopsis of each. I would prefer outlines of only the more obscure shows. (I've seen Star Trek and Doctor Who). If you have any opinions on what made a show particularly good or bad I'd really like to hear about that too (this includes Star Trek, Doctor Who, etc.), and, of course, any feelings about the differences between products of various countries. Two of the less well known shows that we spent a good deal of time talking about were UFO (anyone remember SHADO?), and Star Lost (which I can only barely remember). Also, no one else seems to have heard of Saphire and Steel, (British, I believe.) I can't believe I made it up. It starred David McCallum (not sure of that spelling) from The Man From UNCLE series. Any info? So, what I'd like from you guys are facts and opinions. It doesn't matter how obscure the show was, though I would like to know how much of an audience it was available to, (was it nationwide or just just available in northern Alaska, did it last one episode, half a season, etc.?). Thanks muchly, P.S. You can either mail responses to me, or if you're making a big point and want to post it feel free. I'll get it either way. ------------------------------ From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: O. S. Card Works Date: 21 Mar 86 12:56:06 GMT To help with a parody play being done for Inconjunction VI this year, we would appreciate a complete bibliography of Mr. Card's works, and also some kind of list of the more well-known works of the SF artist, Michael Whelan. Both men are guests of honor at ICJ VI, to be held the weekend of July 4, 1986, at the Adam's Mark Hotel, Indianapolis, IN. Registration details will be posted later. arlan ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Mar 86 0952-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #54 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 25 Mar 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 54 Today's Topics: Books - Eddings & Herbert & Vance & Wolfe & Favorite Books (2 msgs), Films - The Quiet Earth, Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide, Television - Videos of Old Shows, Miscellaneous - A Complaint & SFL T-shirts (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: slu70!guy@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: _Belgariad_ review (major spoilers) Date: 21 Mar 86 18:28:39 GMT One thing that I think was good about the book is the world/universe that Eddings constructed. I'm getting tired of Tolkien clones. The world of the Belgariad was refreshingly different. He even admits that s-e-x exists. I'd recommend it as an enjoyable read, just don't expect too much. ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 24 Mar 1986 11:25:02-PST From: binder%thehut.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Dum vivimus vivamus) Subject: Heretics of Dune _Heretics_of_Dune_ is indeed the fifth Dune book, and _Chapterhouse_Dune_ is the sixth. Both are too long to review conveniently here, and I don't have them at hand. As to whether they're worth reading, it's up to the reader. If you have read the first four Dune books and LIKED them, then by all means the others are worth it. They do not complete the Dune saga; I understand that Herbert was working on a seventh at the time of his death, and I understand further that his son will finish it. I hope so. The later books have a lot more psychological and behavioural study than the first ones, and in general a lot less shoot-em-up action. For me, this aspect made them good, as I find Herbert's insight into motivations fascinating. The plot twists he uses in _Heretics_ and _Chapterhouse_ are to my mind a little more plausible than some he used earlier; note, though, that they do depend very heavily upon your having suspended your disbelief so thoroughly as to have gotten through the earlier books. My recommendation is to take the hit on your social life. Cheers, Dick Binder (The Stainless Steel Rat) UUCP: { decvax, allegra, ucbvax... } !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder ARPA: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 86 02:42:25 MST From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley) Subject: THE GREEN PEARL by Jack Vance This book is the second in Vance's latest series, which started with SULDRUN'S GARDEN, aka LYONESSE (retitled by whim of the publisher, apparently). The setting of the book might seem to put it firmly in an established niche of popular fantasy, that of magical Arthurian romances (MARs for short). MARs typically pit a virtuous king against an assortment of nasty wizards and witches, and they often involve a long quest to rescue the king's love interest and demonstrate his purity. Enchanted swords and beautiful maidens abound, not to mention dark castles and evil jewels. I tend to pass over MARs at the bookstore because they seem to me to be overly conventional, like space operas or gothic romances. It's a rare book with MAR characteristics that grabs me, that forces me to read it and enjoy it, and I'm happy to say that THE GREEN PEARL is one such book. The world of the Lyonesse books differs but little in outline from the usual MAR pattern. The time is just prior to that of Arthur in Cornwall; a genealogical tree in the first volume conveniently connects Arthur with the characters of the novels. The Elder Isles are a set of islands off the coast of Aquitaine which through some act of magic no longer appear on the modern globe. The Isles are divided into petty kingdoms, each of which struggles to gain mastery over the entire archipelago. The population of the Isles is motley, ranging from red-haired Celts to pre-Vikings, from fairies to trolls and from itinerant magicians to vastly powerful wizards. Despite this utterly conventional setting, the book succeeds because its characters and their travails are different from those of the run-of-the-mill MAR: they are distinctly Vancian, distinct in a way that is hard to describe if you haven't already become familiar with Vance's other works. The characters eat, excrete and fornicate; they often decide that discretion is the better part of valor; they fall out of love as well as fall into it; they play complex political games; they do any number of things that flout the conventions of the MAR. And the language! Vance's style has always seemed baroque and archaic, and fits into this mode with hardly a change. I had heard that Vance wanted a bestseller, and had perhaps cynically chosen to write at a longer length and with a less original setting then usual in hopes of attracting a larger audience. (A similar rumor was spread about Silverberg's LORD VALENTINE'S CASTLE, which also seemed targeted as a bestseller; I didn't like it nearly as much as his earlier work.) I think this attitude shows in SULDRUN'S GARDEN, which could have been a better book had it been trimmed to the same length as THE GREEN PEARL. The latter book seems much tighter and more fun, with adventure and humor balanced to good effect. If you like Vance, or if you like MARs, I think you'll enjoy THE GREEN PEARL... Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ From: kalash@ingres.berkeley.edu.ARPA (Joe Kalash) Subject: Re: "funny words" in NOBS Date: 23 Mar 86 18:59:19 GMT wood%hugo.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM writes: >About 25 pages into the story -- when Severian is messing around in >the graveyard there is a wonderfully picturesc sentence about the >moon breaking out from behind the clouds and a shaft of light >hitting the ground like and amschaftspand. (sp? I don't have my >book to reference since I lent it out.) The Shadow of the Torturer: Pg. 14 He and the heavy man grunted as they pulled, and I saw something white appear at their feet. They bent to lift. As though an amschaspand had touched them with his radiant wand, the fog swirled and parted to let a beam of green moonlight fall. They had the corpse of a woman. The Castle of the Otter: Pg. 28 Amschpand: Very roughly, a Zoroastrian archangel. There are six, and they attend upon Ahura Mazda, the good god. Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: Favorite SF Books Date: 23 Mar 86 12:22:22 GMT I had a lot of trouble with this questionaire, because a lot of my favorite stuff is on one borderline or another in the meanings of "SF". Is SF science fiction, science fantasy too, speculative fiction or what? Is it just the stuff which is usually called or thought of as SF, or not? Well, I'll try. >All Time Favorite: If you could pick just one, this is the "best" > SF novel you've ever read. Hard to say. Simon-pure "SF"? What about "A Canticle for Liebowitz"? >Favorite author: Who is your favorite SF writer? H.G. Wells. I guess. >Hardest to put down: There are some books that you just can't > put down until you're finished. This might be called the > most exciting book you've read. "The Anubis Gates". (Is this "SF"? I really don't know). >Best with computers: Well, most of us use computers, so this > one seems appropriate. "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" >Most interesting/unusual: Maybe not exciting or a classic, but > has very unusual or interesting ideas. "Solaris" >Best series: The best series of books by same author (e.g. Dune, > Pern, etc.) I've been holding off on C.S. Lewis, because I'm not sure his stuff is "real" SF. But this just HAS to be his "space trilogy" of "Out of the Silent Planet", "Perelandra", and "That Hideous Strength". These get progressively better, and less and less like "SF". >Best written: Just good writing that would stand up to any classic > in any type of literature. Any of the above, I guess. What about C.S. Lewis again? >Other books: Any other standouts you want to mention for whatever > reason. "The Absolute at Large" by Karel Kapek -- funniest SF book. (Also "The War with the Newts" is good). "A Case of Conscience" by James Blish. "The Left Hand of Darkness" by LeGuin. Is Nabokov's "Ada" SF??? As a lot of people have been saying, Wolfe writes stuff that makes you take notice. Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Favorite SF Books Date: 25 Mar 86 01:52:09 GMT >> All Time Favorite: Gateway by Fred Pohl, except when it's The Lathe of Heaven by LeGuin. >> Favorite author: Dead heat between Silverberg and LeGuin >> Hardest to put down: Anything I put down usually doesn't get finished. >> Best with computers: Moon is a Harsh Mistress by R.A.H. >> Most interesting/unusual: The Cyberiad by Stanslaw Lem (also the most amusing) >> Best series: Series? Almost without exception, every series I've ever read has one dud in it. On this point, and since one can't count the LOTR in this category, the prize must go to the Earthsea books by LeGuin. >> Best written: Lathe of Heaven and LOTR >> Other books: Majipoor Chronicles by Silverberg Esbae by Linda Haldemann Star of the Sea by Linda Haldemann The Red Magician by Linda Goldstein Till We Have Faces by C. S. Lewis (None great works, but all giving special delight to me) C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 86 09:54:38 EST From: SAROFF%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: A Review: The Quiet Earth Some critics have called "The Quiet Earth" the best Sci-Fi movie of the decade. They are wrong. It's pretty awful. The basic plot is that something has caused all animal life on earth to vanish. Only a select few people who are at the point of death remain when this event occurs. We meet what must be the only three people left "down under", and find out that it might have been caused by a power distribution network set up by the USA for use by aircraft, or as is said in the movie, "Maybe God blinked. The characters are uninteristing, the special effects are dull, and the plot has very little to say. This movie has been getting good reviews for two reasons that have little artistic bearing: 1) It is "politically correct" (Not so mildly anti-American), and 2) It is purposely obtuse. The direction isn't very good either. I heartily recommend that everyone miss this movie unless they are into being bored. I'll leave you with one thing: The ending seems to imply that it was God Blinking, and not the transmission network that caused the event. Matthew Saroff Saroff%Umass.Bitnet@Wiscvm.Wisc.Edu ------------------------------ From: genat!phoenix@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: The Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy Date: 18 Mar 86 19:02:07 GMT I would very much like to have an audio recording of *The Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy*'s radio version off of the BBC, CBC, or where-ever. Original stereo would be nice, but not essential. Thank you. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 86 15:21:46 EST From: salamir%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Ask me about SalNet!) Subject: Batman Tapes? How does one go about purchasing old TV shows on videotape? Or even finding out if such are available? I am primarily interested in Batman, but would also like to get "The Prisoner", "Mr. Ed", and "My Favorite Martian"... Just call me silly... Ron Lussier Salamir@UMass.Bitnet (See header for more details) ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 86 10:42:34 EST (Monday) From: Heiny.henr@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun (Spoilers possible) To: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu "This was an outstandingly bad novel. ...every year or so the Wulf[sic]-cultists must issue forth ... to demonstrate why there's such a large ... market for so much bad SF." And every year the people who didn't like the books come out and insult those who do. This happens with just about every author: Wolfe, Moorcock, Heinlein & Laumer are the ones who come to mind as recent examples. It seems like every conversation on SFL degenerates to "I liked this book." - "I didn't, so there." - "Oh, yeah? Well, I did." - "I didn't, nyah nyah nyah." - "Did." - "Didn't" - "Did." - "Didn't" - "DidDidDidDid." - "Didn'tDidn'tDidn'tDidn't".... No participant in this part of the conversation bothers to tell us WHY they did or didn't like it. It's as if their opinion was an invariable fact, culmination of some mathematical proof (which is intuitively obvious and left as an exercise to the student). Without an explanation of why a book is so flawed or so wonderful or so average, any messages such as the one quoted above are as meaningful as "Reagan Sucks" graffiti. Messages that simply parrot an opinion stated in another have even less meaning [why do do you agree? Is it fashionable? Do you feel guilty if you say no? Are your reasons similar, or was it for some other cause?]. Another thing to recall is that SFL (like most similar lists) can be divided into two groups: The Permanents (people with a steady, long term access, such as myself - I've been reading it for some years now) and The Transients (people who may have access only briefly or intermittently, such as students, part time employees, consultants, etc). What may be old hat to the Permanents could be brand new to the Transients (witness the regular recurrence of discussions such as Music in SF, Dune, Star Trek Inconsistencies, and the Book of the New Sun) [there's thesis material for someone in here...]. It would be nice if the Permanents could let the Transients have their say without ridiculing them: "Oh THAT - that was said in V2#47. It's OLD stuff." Surely you have occasionally said something that has been said before - it would be nice if the Transients had the same privilege. It comes down to this: If you aren't willing to tell us why you feel the way you do and you aren't willing to let others speak without insulting them, then your message is only slightly more meaningful than random bits. Chris Heiny PS This was not directed solely to the author of the message above that message was simply a stellar example of the problem. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 86 08:05 CST From: MSgt Robert L. Stevenson Subject: SF-LOVERS T-Shirts To: ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA The design for the SF-Lovers T-Shirts sounds great, but then I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Heinlein fan (Not an apology, just an explanation). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 86 23:29:29 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: T shirts To: ringwld!jmturn%cca-unix.arpa@CCA-UNIX.ARPA >From: ringwld!jmturn%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa >Date: Feburary 30, 2836 1224 EST >From: Lazurus Long >To: SF-LOVERS@EARTH.SOL.MILYWAY >Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 1254, Number 54 Sounds great! Just three comments. 1) If that is AD 2836, the volume number should be 1711, if we continue to have two volumes per year. 2) In the calendar Lazarus Long uses, 2836 would be the year AD 4972. In that case, the volume number would be 5983. This seems more likely since the galaxy is named in the header, but no colonies yet existed outside our galaxy in AD 2836. 3) There is no evidence that there will ever be a February 30th. If we use a real date, we can put down the day of the week, for instance "Sat, February 29th 2836 (AD 4972)" then people could have lots of fun trying to figure out if that really is the correct day for that date. ...Keith ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Mar 86 0835-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #55 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 27 Mar 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 55 Today's Topics: Books - Brin & Heinlein & Henderson & Norton & Tolkien Typos in Books & Favorite Books (2 msgs) & Merchant Books (2 msgs) & Multiple Author Books & Finding Books & Sime/Gen, Magazines - Discussing Recent Stories, Television - Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Booklists & Long Names ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Mar 1986 19:11-EST From: David.Detlefs@G.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: David Brin I have been confused for some years now by the high praise accorded to David Brin's work. I thought _Sundiver_ was good hard SF, with a lot of original ideas, but not extremely interesting characterization. I looked forward to his next novel. When I read _Startide Rising_, however, I was extremely disappointed. It, too, had some interesting ideas, but the execution left me unimpressed. Didn't anyone else find it a bit, well, "adolescent?" (Obviously, a lot of people didn't agree with me.) Next I read _The_Practice_ Effect_, which I found as silly as Piers Anthony at his worst (which to me is a strong condemnation.) All of which left me unprepared for _The_Postman_. I found it hard to believe that the same author wrote the above books and this one. For the first time, I think Brin has written an adult book, and a serious one. The first half of the book was so good that I was physically excited as I was reading it, thinking I had a classic in my hands. The second half trailed off somewhat into more of a straight adventure story, but the overall effect remained extremely positive. I haven't yet read _The Heart of The Comet_ (or whatever the exact title is), but I hope it and future Brin work continue the trend _The Postman_ started. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 1986 10:08-PST Subject: Heinlein's Cat From: WILBUR@OFFICE-2.ARPA I read "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls". I have read better Heinlein, i.e., "Friday". I thought that the cat had the best part in "TCWWTW". Faye ------------------------------ From: mpm@hpfcms Subject: Re: Favorite SF Books Date: 22 Mar 86 08:06:00 GMT I've already mailed my completed survey to Bruce, but in the process of filling it out I rediscovered one of my favorite books (actually two of them). They are Zenna Henderson's books about The People - i.e. "No Different Flesh" and "Pilgrimage". These are, in my opinion, two works that deserve continuing discovery, from new and old audiences alike. Is Zenna still writing? Is there a possibility of another book about The People? (I know she's written one or two short stories about them for Analog or some other S-F periodical.) Her work is a prime example of strong character development that seems common in the S-F novels of women authors like Anne McCaffrey, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Andre Norton, Leigh Brackett, Ursula K. Le Guin, and C. J. Cherryh). Among male S-F authors, I find that Robert Heinlein (the one writing ten to fifteen years ago) has a similar talent for characterization. (Unfortunately his works of the past five years do not appeal to me as does his earlier writing. I like it, but I like his "middle period" better.) Mike McCarthy {ihnp4, hplabs}!hpfcla!mpm ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 1986 07:03-PST Subject: Re: Andre Norton books From: WILBUR@OFFICE-2.ARPA I have read Andre Norton all my life and did my professional paper for my Master of Library Science degree in 1966 on her. To the best of my knowledge Mary Norton, who wrote "The Borrowers series", is not Andre Norton. Of the other books on the list I did not recognize "Caroline" or "Ten Mile Treasure". Are these also by Mary Norton or Andre Norton? Faye ------------------------------ From: nessus@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Doug Alan) Subject: Re: FLAME to defend literature from Dumbbells Date: 25 Mar 86 11:17:11 GMT showard@udenva.UUCP writes: > Having not read Wolfe, I will only say this: Do you really want to > hold Tolkien up as the paragon of fantasy literature? Much as I > hate to agree with (ick) Gary Gygax, I must opine that The Lord of > the Rings is about 50 pages of plot in gods-know-how-many pages of > description, with an all- egory so obvious Tolkien had to deny it > in the forward. It's overwritten, overdecorated, and overrated. I certainly wouldn't want to hold up Tolkien as a paragon of anything. I thought "The Lord of the Rings" was one of the most boring books I ever had the mispleasure to read, for precisely the reasons you mention. ("The Hobbit", however, I thought was quite enchanting.) On the other hand, I believe "The Book of the New Sun" to be one of the very finest books ever written for all the reason already stated by others. Doug Alan Nessus@Eddie.MIT.EDU {allegra,seismo,decvax!genrad}!mit-eddie!nessus MIT, E40-358a, Cambridge, MA 02139 (617) 253-0147 ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 1986 08:47:32-EST From: clapper@NADC Subject: Typographical Errors Has anyone else out there noticed an increased proliferation of typographical errors in paperbacks? I finally got around to reading Chalker's _The Birth of Flux and Anchor_, and I was appalled at the number of misspelled words, omitted words and phrases, and duplicated lines. While I can usually figure out what was supposed to be printed, I find an overabundance of typos to be extremely disconcerting - even in a three dollar paperback. Don't publishers know about electronic spelling checkers and such? Brian Clapper ------------------------------ From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: Favorite SF Books Date: 24 Mar 86 05:49:04 GMT chuq@sun.uucp (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >> All Time Favorite: > Lord of the Rings, by Tolkien. I always find time to reread > it about once a year. This relates to a problem I mentioned when I did my choices -- what do people mean by "SF"? "The Lord of the Rings" is wonderful, but to my mind neither a series nor, by any stretch of the imagination, "SF". If "The Lord of the Rings" is Chuq's all-time favorite "SF", I think I will say "Paradise Lost" is mine, with honorable mention to "The Tempest", and ... stop me before I say more! Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 1986 08:52-PST Subject: RE: Favorite SF books From: WILBUR@OFFICE-2.ARPA Favorite author: Andre Norton Hardest to put down: What ever I am reading at the moment Best with computers: I take computers for granted so I don't notice the inclusion of or lack of computers in a plot except for the sexy computer on the Enterprise (egads, I have been working on this computer too long when I call a computer sexy) Most interesting/unusual: Will have to pass on this one. Best series: Witch world Best written: Will let the literary types fight this one out. Other books/series: "Darkover" series, "Dorsai" series ... Faye ------------------------------ From: watrose!mwnorman@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Norman) Subject: Re: Merchant book wanted Date: 23 Mar 86 18:48:46 GMT Another "merchant"-type book that is worth checking out is _Waves_ by M.A. Foster. This book deals with styles of multi-planetal (sic) corporations and how they operate light-years away from i) their parent corporations, and ii) away from any large regulating bodies!! The culture that is the background to this book is also very interesting, being drawn from Eastern Europe rather than the usual North American. Mike Norman {allegra, your favourite back-bone site }!watmath!watrose!mwnorman ------------------------------ To: jamesp Subject: Re: Merchant book wanted Date: 24 Mar 86 22:00:29 PST (Mon) From: Jim Hester The Mote in God's Eye, by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, has an interstellar trader/merchant as a major character. Citizen of the Galaxy, by Robert Heinlein. Trader to the Stars, by Poul Anderson. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 86 12:24 EST From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Multiple-author books A previous message incorrectly described the provenance of the satire "Naked Came The Stranger." This book was written by the staff of a NY-area publication (I think Newsday), one episodic chapter per person, glue provided by the commentary of a husband-and-wife talk show team. It was written in response to "The Voyeur," done pseudonymously by (I think) George Plimpton in reponse to John Updike's "Couples." A more interesting example is "The Floating Admiral," by the Detection Club (or some such) of London in the 1920's. This was written as a kind of game, in which each author had to write: 1. A chapter advancing the story; 2. An appendix (not available to the other authors) which gives the premise of the chapter, i.e., whodunnit and why and how. The premise must integrate all the evidence presented in the previous chapters. It's not much of a novel, but it is fun to watch each author climb out of the hole dug by his/her predecessor and dig a new one. You will never think of Agatha Christie as a prim lady after you have read her chapter and underlying plot. Has anything like this been done in fantasy or SF? A sword-and-sorcery quest novel seems like a natural, wherein each author would have to extricate the party from one fix and leave them in another. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 25 Mar 86 21:09:03-PST From: Randall B. Neff Subject: Finding Books I am tired of individuals whimpering about not being able to find science fiction and fantasy books. Given the current state of the book business with the three major chains dominating the distribution, all you can easily find is those books that sell in the 100,000's in hardcover, and millions in paperback. And if the book is not sold out in a couple of months, then it is returned (hardcover) or stripped and discarded (paperback). With the computerized inventory systems, the chains know what is selling and what to get rid of. So going to a chain is futile unless the book is brand new and by someone famous. How to find science fiction and fantasy books: You have to work at it. 0. (Most Important) subscribe to Locus. $24.00 for 12 issues (2nd class) (other rates to non USA) $32.00 for 12 issues (1st class) PO Box 13305 Oakland, CA 94661 This gives you monthly lists of books that just came out, ads and announcements of future books, convention lists, Nominations and Awards, annual recommended list, and classified ads for mailorder books. Secondary are the book reviews, convention reviews and pictures, foreign reports, obituaries, etc. 1. Move to a city that has a sf speciality bookstore. :-) 2. Go to conventions. See 0 for list. Confederation has sold out 244 tables and 12 booths. Smaller conventions typically have a couple of stores selling new books, more selling used books. From the Locus convention list, it seems that everyone lives within a day's drive of some convention. CA has scheduled for 86, Equicon (LA), Baycon(San Jose), Costumcon(LA), Westercon(San Diego), Loscon(LA). 3. Write for some mail order catalogs. Then buy from them to continue getting them. See 0 above. March issue has 25 ads for mail order books. L. W. Curry, Inc. Elizabethtown, New York 12932 is the largest seller of new and used SF and fantasy hardcover books. Catalogs, Advance orders, want lists. Stocks most in print hardcover, including speciality press titles. The Science Fiction Shop 56 Eighth Ave New York, New York 10014 frequent catalogs, new hardcover and paperback. Vast stock of in print books. 4. Work out an arrangement. This works well when you spend over $100. a month on sf. Find a small, friendly bookstore where the owner runs the place. Tell them that you like sf/fantasy but have trouble finding it. Typically, the store uses one or more national book distributors that supply catalogs of forthcoming books and/or microfiche inventories. If you know what you want and know the ISBN (from 0 or distributor's catalogs) the store can very likely get it for you. With the right relationship, you should be able to look at the forthcoming catalogs and place your order ahead of time. The book distributors typically drop books when about a year old (unless still popular). A bookstore cannot order one paper back book direct from the publisher. However, if you can wait, your special orders for older, in print paperbacks can augment the store's regular (quarterly?) reorder to the paperback publishers. Be nice, be pleasant, be reliable about paying for your books. DO NOT HASSLE THE BOOKSELLER WHEN THE PUBLISHER SCREWS UP. Do not believe ANYTHING that a publisher says about dates, prices, cover, title, copyright date, newness, goodness, or even that the book is really going to be published. A bookseller gets the book when the book gets to the store. Not sooner. 5. Used books. See 0, 1, 2, 3 above. Rare gems even appear in Goodwill stores. Randy NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1986 15:02:09 EST From: NEVNT%NERVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Vicki Turner) Subject: Where are the Sime/Gen fans? Hi. Just found out about SF-LOVERS, which is why I'm just now responding. YES! I'm a Sime/Gen fan! Here in Out-Territory with no one to have transfer with. Would love to discourse with other Sime/Gen fans, find out about newsletters, you name it. (To the MIT group, how do you go about qualifying yourselves at 2nd-Order this-that-or-the-other? Just curious. Y'all have Simes up there in MA?) Thanks. BITNET: nevnt@nervm INTERNET: nevnt%nervm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ATT: 904-392-2061 USPS: Vicki Turner NorthEast Regional Data Center 107 SSRB Univ. of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 UNIVERSE: nevnt@nervm.gainesville.FL.USA.NA.terra.sol. milkyway.local-group ICBM: 029N 38 082W 20 ------------------------------ From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer) Subject: Magazine stories Date: 26 Mar 86 02:46:25 GMT A little while back someone asked about discussing stories from current SF magazines (Analog, Asimov's, etc.). Since I feel kind of left out in the ongoing discussions of books I haven't read, I think this would be a good idea. I think that the Subject line should include magazine and issue, as in "Subject: Quantum Cats (Feb Analog)", so uninterested parties can easily skip them, and also to serve as a possible spoiler warning. I'd especially enjoy being able to discuss the editorials without the 8-month time lag! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 86 15:17:23 -0500 From: The Krewz Subject: Yeoman Who played STAR TREK's Yeoman Janice Rand? ------------------------------ From: muir@COGSCI.BERKELEY.EDU (David Muir Sharnoff) Subject: Re: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #46 Date: 24 Mar 86 03:47:03 GMT > From: Bard Bloom > Why are we getting all these complete booklists? They're not > terribly interesting (except to fans of the author, and not always > then), and they're a real pain for those of us who get digests. flame, flame, flame. The booklists are *great*. They are one of the main reasons I subscibe to this newsgroup in the first place. There are many, many things sent with higher noise ratios than the booklists... (think of how many NASA jokes went were resent in net.jokes etc.) I only wrote to encourage those who send booklists to send more... Dave Orgi:Institute of Cognitive Studies, University of California, Berkeley Real-time: muir@cogsci.bereley.edu or muir@berkeley.edu UUCP: ...!ucbvax!muir ------------------------------ From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert) Subject: Long Names Date: 24 Mar 86 17:53:57 GMT Which science fiction author has probably the longest name? Answer: John Wyndham Parkes Lucas Beynon Harris that's who! Bill ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 31 Mar 86 0926-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #56 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 31 Mar 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 56 Today's Topics: Books - Card & Cherryh & Tolkien & Sf Poll (2 msgs) & Recommendations & Multiple Author Books (2 msgs), Films - Highlander, Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide, Television - Star Trek & Favorite Shows & Saphire and Steel, Miscellaneous - Spoilers & Hugos & Conventions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: calma!pincus@caip.rutgers.edu (Jon Pincus) Subject: Re: Ender's Game review Date: 27 Mar 86 17:14:13 GMT I should point out that Ender's game is based on a novelette or short story whose name I naturally forget. I liked the shorter version better, and I don't think it was just because I knew how the novel would end; it seemed to me that a lot of the novel was filler. jon ucbvax!calma!pincus ------------------------------ From: duncan!root@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: C. J. Cherryh: Chanur's Venture beg Date: 19 Mar 86 22:20:00 GMT yep, I was really bummed when I saw "Channur's Homecoming" due out in January 1987 on my copy of The Kif Strike Back... Malcolm Duncan System Administrator Duncan Communications BBS UUCP: {ihnp4, ucbvax}!pur-ee!pur-phy!duncan!root USPS: RR #1 Box 98E, Battle Ground, IN 47920 ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Favorite SF Books (are they SF?) Date: 27 Mar 86 05:14:58 GMT Gene Ward Smith writes: > This relates to a problem I mentioned when I did my choices -- >what do people mean by "SF"? "The Lord of the Rings" is wonderful, >but to my mind neither a series nor, by any strech of the >imagination, "SF". If "The Lord of the Rings" is Chuq's all-time >favorite "SF", I think I will say "Paradise Lost" is mine, with >honerable mention to "The Tempest", and ... stop me before I say >more! I find two useful definitions: (a) Algis Budrys's "Speculative Fiction" def. (b) The old "what puts on the SF shelves" Either way, LOTR passes the test. C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 1986 10:55:24-EST From: wyzansky@NADC Subject: Favorite books Okay, I'll bite on Bruce Wampler's survey. Here goes: > All Time Favorite: Tough to choose just one. I will pick Clarke's _The_City_and_the_Stars_ for science fiction and _Lord_of_the_Rings_ for fantasy. > Favorite author: I think I will have to go with Niven & Pournelle in collaboration for consistently producing gripping books, better than either individually. Runners up: Anderson, Piper, Tolkien, Clarke, Heinlein. > Hardest to put down: Tie: LOTR and Dune. Runners up: _To_Your_Scattered_Bodies_Go_, _Lucifer's_Hammer_, _Lord_Kalvan_of_Otherwhen_ > Best with computers: It's only a short story, but _Computers_Don't_Argue_ by Dickson takes the prize by a long shot. Also, _The_Adolescence_of_P1_ was fascinating. And, of course, _The_Moon_Is_a_Harsh_Mistress_. > Most interesting/unusual: Riverworld series. And a fantasy entry: _Inferno_ (I know, it's a rewrite, but Dante was 700 years ago. Enough time to become original again.) > Best series: It was cut off too soon by his untimely death, but I will go with Piper's Paratime/Lord_Kalvan series. Runners up: Pern, Darkover (before Bradley got hooked on Free Amazons), Polesotechnic_League/ Flandry, Amber, Dorsai, Deryni. > Best written: I have to say LOTR. > Other books: For sheer good fun: _The_Witches_of_Karres_ by James Schmitz. Borderline SF/mainstream but unforgettable: _On_the_Beach_ by Nevil Shute. And so many others that this list would get quickly out of hand. Harold Wyzansky (wyzansky@nadc.ARPA) ------------------------------ From: qantel!lynx@caip.rutgers.edu (D.N. Lynx Crowe@ex2207) Subject: Best SF poll Date: 26 Mar 86 23:57:08 GMT OK, Here's my list of favorites: > All Time Favorite: This is a very difficult choice, but my current all time favorite is "Journey From Yesteryear", by James P. Hogan; I also very much like "The Beast Master", by Andre Norton, "The Languages of Pao", by Jack Vance, and "Babel 17", by Samuel R. Delaney. > Favorite author: James P. Hogan. Andre Norton is my second choice > Hardest to put down: "Journey From Yesteryear", by James P. Hogan. > Best with computers: For me, this pretty well has to be "Two faces of Tomorrow", by James P. Hogan; "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", by Robert A. Heinlein is a close runner up, and "Shockwave Rider", by John Brunner isn't bad, either. Then, too, there's "Neuromancer" ... > Most interesting/unusual: "The Morphodite", by M.A. Foster. > Best series: "Witch World" series -- by Andre Norton. > Best written: Lots of good stuff -- too much of it very well written to make a choice, as it all depends on my mood at the time ... > Other books: "The Genesis Machine", by James P. Hogan. "The Warriors of Dawn", "The Game Players of Zan", and "Day of the Klesh", by M.A. Foster. "Street Lethal", by Steven Barnes. "Double Double", by John Brunner. "Stand on Zanzibar", by John Brunner. D.N. Lynx Crowe UUCP: {hplabs, dual, lll-crg, ptsfa}!qantel!lynx ------------------------------ From: genat!phoenix@caip.rutgers.edu (phoenix) Subject: Re: Query for netlanders!? Date: 21 Mar 86 15:57:27 GMT joe@oucs.UUCP (Joseph Judge) writes: > Remember the original Thieves World books (before the >Beysibs)?? Ever read Robt. Lynn Asprin's Myth series books ???? > >Well those are the books that I just couldn't stop reading - until >they ran out. > >Any suggestions of other books (or short stories (I like them,too)) >that are along the genre that I could read ???? From the looks of it, you might also enjoy the "Fafred & the Grey Mouser" series by Fritz Leiber, the 3 vol. "Blue Adept" series by Piers Anthony (being: Split Infinity, The Blue Adept, Juxtaposition"), as well his Xanth series might be worth the first few at any rate. An excellent collection of short stories written by the team of L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt is called the The Compleat (sp) Enchanter; and I believe I have one more title in that series: Land of Unreason. There that should keep you busy for a while. Toodles! ------------------------------ From: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu (Michaelntz) Subject: Re: Multiple-author books Date: 27 Mar 86 02:49:00 GMT > Has anything like this been done in fantasy or SF? A > sword-and-sorcery quest novel seems like a natural, wherein each > author would have to extricate the party from one fix and leave > them in another. See _Thieves'_World_ series, edited (I believe; someone please catch my error) by Robert Lynn Aspin. I think there were 2 collections of stories about the same world, with the same major characters, all by relatively well-known fantasy writers. The premise was laid out to all at the same time, and each went off and wrote a story accordingly (rules abounded, such as "You can't kill off a major character, etc.). As I recall the books were quite good, and fascinating, though the stories were NOT linear. A guy just mentioned Thieves' World in a posting under the heading "Query to Netlanders" or something to that effect. You might want to check with him as regards this work. mike krantz ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_akaa@caip.rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee) Subject: Re: Multiple-author books Date: 28 Mar 86 04:19:58 GMT There's a comic book out called DC Challenge which is written in the same manner. It's a 12-issue series. Kenneth Arromdee BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa ------------------------------ Date: Wed 26 Mar 86 17:29:15-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: Highlander I thought that this was an excellent movie. The subject matter is somewhat old for people who are familar with SF and Fantasy, but it was well handled and should be a good view for the general public. The technical work was superior. I especially liked the camera work. Most action scenes in most movies involve a stationary camera(s) with the actors doing all the moving. This film makes use (perhaps overuse) of the camera's mobility from scene 1. The result is more engrossing action sequences (even though S&S action is pretty dull for me, since I have been exposed to it once too often). Jim ------------------------------ From: tellab1!barth@caip.rutgers.edu (Barth Richards) Subject: Re: Hitch-hicker Date: 21 Mar 86 23:40:13 GMT wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA writes: >There are 2 two-albumn sets that make up the HHGTTG and TRATEOTU. Nope. One 2 album set (THE HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY, PART ONE) and one single album (THE HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY, PART 2 THE RESTAURANT AT THE END OF THE UNIVERSE), though the "Part 2" single album is long (about 30:00 per side). >These are taken from the BBC Radio 4 series. Not really. After the series had been broadcast, Adams thought that it would be a really great idea to put the episodes out as albums. The BBC, however, didn't think it was such a good idea. Though Adams owned the rights to the scripts, the recordings of the episodes themselves were property of the BBC. So, Adams decided to assemble as many of the original actors as he could and rerecord the shows. Along the way, he decided to clean up the scripts a bit, to bring them more in line with the later version of the story published in the books. The first album (the double) covers basically the same plot as the first four episodes of the radio program. The second album (the single disc one) roughly covers episodes five and six. ------------------------------ From: unirot!shark@caip.rutgers.edu (chris rhodes) Subject: Re: Yeoman Date: 27 Mar 86 01:43:08 GMT krewson@huey.udel.EDU writes: >Who played STAR TREK's Yeoman Janice Rand? An actress by the name of Grace Lee Whitney. She was in Star Trek III as well. When the Enterprise returns from its tussle with Khan and everyone in the spaceport bar is giving it a standing ovation, she's one of the standers. Chris Rhodes / Shooting Shark / Tiburon Systems uucp : {ihnp4,seismo,qantel,sun,etc.}!lll-crg!csuh!shark (preferred) !caip!unirot!shark (It'll do) ------------------------------ From: hope!spock@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Ambler) Subject: Re: SciFi TV shows; American vs. others Date: 26 Mar 86 05:38:35 GMT British: The Tomorrow People: Of course, a children's scifi show, but cheesey enough to be likable. American: Quark: Comedy from the (I think) NBC network. The adventures of a galactic garbage collector. Such cohorts as 'Ficus,' a humanoid plant. Looks, talks, and walks like a human, but is, apparently, a plant. (MEGA FUNNY!!) Outer Limits: Must I explain?! Space 1999: Yah, great! Christopher J. Ambler, University of California, Riverside ------------------------------ From: watdcsu!broehl@caip.rutgers.edu (Bernie Roehl) Subject: Re: SciFi TV shows; American vs. others Date: 25 Mar 86 19:22:20 GMT I've seen one episode of "Saphire and Steel", and yes it stars David McCallum and Joanna Lumley ("Purdy" of the New Avengers). The episode I saw wasn't bad, though it wasn't exactly fast-paced. I saw the episode at one of our local Dr. Who conventions; so far as I know, it's never had a North American release... ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 86 10:20:09 EST (Wednesday) Subject: Re: Saroffs review of The Quiet Earth. From: Power.wbst@Xerox.COM Why is it that people who cannot resist the temptation to give away the ending of a movie always wait until the last paragraph, when your guard is down? Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed 26 Mar 86 18:20:58-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: SF-Lovers and the Hugos I definitely hope that somewhere down the line SF Lovers, its moderators, and even its contributors, get honored in some form by the SF community. I agree that it is perhaps the most innovative thing to hit publishing since xerox (for APAs) and paperback books. But I also feel that it should not receive such a reward at this time. The risks of official interference by the government are still too great. The increased reliance on the USENet has somewhat diminished this concern, but the ARPANet connections still form the backbone of the distribution system, one provided to us free of cost by the government. When government priorities, and private enterprise recognize the worth of entities such as this digest, then will be the time for public awards. Jim (second, after the great Duffey, of the SF Lovers moderators) ------------------------------ From: teklabs!donch@caip.rutgers.edu (Don Chitwood) Subject: My First SF-Convention Date: 25 Mar 86 23:29:39 GMT I spent last weekend in Seattle at NORWESCON 9, a regional and annual (?) sf-con with a large following. Never having been to a "con" before, I had no idea what to expect. My impressions evolved considerably during my stay. At first, all I saw were a lot of people dressed up in wild costumes. The median age-group seemed to be late teens, early twenties. In fact, staying in the hotel (the SEA-TAC Red Lion Inn, a very nice and posh place) where the con was held brought back all my awful memories of dormitory life at college. Lots of racket, ALL night long, drunks, beligerants, lots of a sense of people needing attention. All right. So much for surface stuff. After all, it was a convention and as such had a program which included talks by a variety of Guests. There was a Guest of Honor--Anne McCaffrey; a Science Guest--a fine man who works as a physicist (I think) with NASA; a Guest Artist--Kelly Fries (spelling?); a toast-master--Spider Robinson; and several others I've forgotten. Along with the official Guests, there were featured panel speakers, professionals associated with SF in certain ways, such as editors (Fred Pohl), Robert Silverberg, Gene Wolfe, Jack Williamson, Greg Bear, David Niven, Aldys Budrys (spelling?), James Hogan, Steven Goldin, and others. One panel discussion was titled The Business of Writing. It consisted of Steven Goldin, an editor, and an agent. They pointed out that many sf-cons were business trips for the professionals since it was an excellent place for everyone to do their marketing or shopping or buying and selling. NORWESCON was offered as an example of a rising star for making business connections. I'm sidetracking myself. Of the programs, one of the major efforts is put into writing sf. There are numerous panel discussions ranging from brainstorm sessions on terraforming or galactic ecology to round-table talks on literary form and image. Thee was a series of writers workshops in which new writers could submit a short story prior to attending the con, then sit in with a group of pros who had all read the work and offered their criticism. I talked to several people who attended the writing workshops and were mightily impressed with the effort extended by the pros. The television cable in the hotel had 24 hour movies (non-repeating) on 3 different channels. There was a series of previews from major studios in Hollywood on upcoming sf-movies (ALIENS, or Alien 2 to name one). There was a huge masquerade ball with a contest, shown live over one of the house tv channels. There was an awards presentation for the L. Ron Hubbard Writers of the Future award. All in all, it had more depth and content than I had originally thought. Hot tip: get a copy of MYTHAGO WOOD by ____ Holdstock. Everyone I heard speak about it gave rave reviews, including the editor who stuck her neck out to get her House to Publish it. I'm reading it now and can't put it down. It is excellent....and hard to find. Don Chitwood Tektronix, Inc. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 31 Mar 86 0948-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #57 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 31 Mar 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 57 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein & Leiber & Zahn & Merchant Books & SF Poll, Television - Best TV Shows & Dr. Who, Miscellaneous - Harper's Article ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven Jones) Subject: Re: Re: Heinlein's latest (Spoiler) Date: 25 Mar 86 16:46:59 GMT I have tried to prevent this message from being a complete spoiler. Read further at the risk of your own enjoyment. > Judy Anderson writes: > The Cat Who Walks Through Walls was a REALLY great book... Up > until about 1/2 way through, when it degenerated into the universe > from The Number Of The Beast. Grrrr.... So if you're a diehard > Heinlein fanatic like me and want to read it ANYWAY, wait 'til it > comes out in paperback (I borrowed it and I am glad...) The assumption here seems to be that _The_Number_of_the_Beast_ was bad. I disagree, but I realize that many people feel that way, more, perhaps, than agree with me. Heinlein says, by introducing Pantheistic Multi- person Solipsism, or whatever he calls it, that science fiction wherein Mars has canals and Venus has swamps need not be relegated to the scrap heap merely because those planets turned out to be more boring than we had hoped. I'll be the first to admit the final chapters of NotB were a little (!) hard to follow. But if for no other reason than the introduction of PMS, NotB is worthwhile. I disagree with the proportions stated above, too. The first third of the book is totally new; it takes place in an circum-Luna orbital habitat called Golden Rule and it introduces totally new characters. The next third takes place in Luna some 100 years after the Revolution described in _The_Moon_is_a_Harsh_Mistress_, involving characters some of which we have seen before. The final third is where Multiperson Solipsism (in the form of the Burroughs Continuum Craft) rears its head of debatable beauty. > Steve Anich writes: > I must agree. I found the ending quite chaotic and confusing. Did > anyone else who read the book get the impresion that the ending > actually was the killing off of Lazurus, Hazel, and the > characters from his other stories? No, no, no! He was safeguarding his characters from death. Now they can never die. Or rather, they can die, but he will not be bound by their deaths. Over and over again, throughout the book, Heinlein explains how some "future histories" record the failure of the Novak/Ames/Hubert expedition, while others record its success. You get to choose for yourself. As does Heinlein. If he were to live another hundred years (my book-reading circuits squirm with pleasure at the thought) he could write a sequel or sequels to either possibility, or both. P.S. "Diehard Heinlein Fanatics" will note that Jubal Harshaw seems to have forgotten who first landed on *his* moon, as related in _Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land. S. Luke Jones E-mail: (uucp) {{...}!ihnp4}!mtung!slj USnAIL: Room HO 1G-302, AT&T Information Systems, Crawfords Corner Road, Holmdel NJ 07733 ------------------------------ From: jdarnold@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Jonathan Arnold) Subject: Re: Query for netlanders!? Date: 28 Mar 86 03:04:25 GMT phoenix@genat.UUCP () writes: >From the looks of it, you might also enjoy the "Fafred & the Grey >Mouser" series by Fritz Leiber It should be Fafhrd (pronounced "Faf-erd"). I whole-heartedly endorse the Fafhrd and Grey Mouser suggestions! These books (all 6) are engrossing, uniquely written and have a heavy dose of realism (for a fantasy world anyway). "Two robbers had been simultaneously counter-thieved by two youths working independently of each other. The two now faced over the sprawled, senseless bodies. Fafhrd said, "Our motives for being here seem identical." "`Seem'? Surely must be!" the Mouser answered curtly, fiercely eyeing this huge potential foe. "How civilized of you!" Fafhrd commented in pleased tones. Then he glanced down, first at the belt and pouch of one fallen thief, then at Mouser with a broad, ingenious smile. "Sixty-sixty?" he suggested. And thus was born a most improbable partnership." - From the Nebula award-winning "Ill met in Lankhmar", Book 1 - Swords and Deviltry There are six books, but I'm not sure if they are still published. I have the full set in paperback from Ace science fiction, dated 1970 - 77 : 1) Swords and Deviltry - 3 stories + intro 2) Swords against Death - 20 stories 3) Swords in the Mist - 6 stories 4) Swords against Wizardry - 4 stories 5) Swords of Lankhmar - Full length novel 6) Swords and Ice Magic - 8 stories The are wonderful sword and sorcery novels/stories, written by Leiber from 1940 - 1977. I'll just finish off this with his description of our 2 heroes, from book #5: Fafhrd and the Mouser are rogues through and through, though each has in him a lot of humanity and at least a diamond chip of the spirit of true adventure. They drink, they feast, they wench, they brawl, they steal, they gamble, and surely they hire out their swords to powers that are only a shade better, if that, than the villains. It strikes me (and something might be made of this) that Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser are almost at the opposite extreme from the heroes of Tolkien. My stuff is at least equally as fantastic as his, but it's an earthier sort of fantasy with a strong seasoning of "black fantasy" - or of black humor, to use the current phrase for something that was once called gallows' humor and goes a long, long way. Though with their vitality, appetites, warm sympathies, and imagination, Fafhrd and the Mouser are anything but "sick" heroes. One of the original motives for conceiving Fafhrd and the Mouser was to have a couple of fantasy heroes closer to true human stature than supermen like Conan and Tarzan and many anothers. In a way they're a mixture of Cabell and Eddison, if we must look for literary ancestors. Fafhrd and the Mouser have a touch of Jurgen's cynicism and anti-romanticism, but they go on boldly having adventures - one more roll of the dice with destiny and death. While the characters they most parallel in "The Worm Ouroboros" are Corund and Gro, yet I don't think they're touched with evil as those two, rather they're rogues in a decadent world where you have to be a rogue to survive; perhaps, in legendry, Robin Hood comes closest to them, though they're certainly a pair of lone-wolf Robin Hoods . . ." Sorry I've gone on so long, but I REALLY like these books (no kidding ;-)) Jon ------------------------------ Date: Wed 26 Mar 86 12:11:38-EST From: Laurence Brothers Subject: Cobra and Zahn; criticism I've seen a number of people praising Zahn and his two novels as if he were a Big Name; I've read Cobra (not the sequel) and I don't understand what the hoopla is about -- in fact I thought Cobra was terrible. The writing was just, well, amateurish, and the plot itself was both inane and hackneyed -- I mean Van Vogt &c. must have done it to death decades ago, kind of like the plots you used to see in the former "Classic Science Fiction" magazine. Come on, evil alien invaders, an elite special corps who are now the resistance, a young jerk who tags along for the ride -- give me a break. Furthermore, I was willing to let a lot of the silliness go -- you know, first novel, and so on, in recompense for the only vaguely new twist, that the superwarriors are actually ninja-type martial artists (this because I am interested in novels dealing with martial arts). However, Zahn clearly doesn't know the first thing about what he is writing about, or if so, he clever disguises it! Shuriken versus APC is just a little much, don't you think? And those aliens, who presumably defeated the vaunted Human war machine, are just sooooo incompetent -- worse than Libyans! I don't have the book at hand, but it MUST have been published by Baen Books, the Soldier of Fortune of the SF world. Now I'm not prejudiced against war novels, I think David Drake is doing a good, if somewhat brutal job, and I like Dickson, Heinlein, et al., but these writers, though not generally (in my opinion) writers of extremely high literary quality, are at least good storytellers who can write (reasonably) compelling and or believable prose. Now, maybe someone who likes Zahn can describe something GOOD about Cobra, or maybe he has written something else -- short stories or something -- in a different vein, something I am not familiar with? I just can't imagine Cobra Strike to be anything more than a somewhat better written (second novel, not first) Cobra. Fortunately, I am not a professional reviewer -- it is just too much fun tearing into another's work -- kind of makes you feel like a scavenger, huh? Laurence ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 86 14:33:50 EST From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Merchant books wanted A superior merchant book is "the shattered stars" by Richard S. McEnroe (bantam/Spectra) I recommend it to all Sf Lovers. ------------------------------ From: calma!pincus@caip.rutgers.edu (Jon Pincus) Subject: Re: Best SF poll Date: 27 Mar 86 22:05:04 GMT >> All Time Favorite: Probably the Illuminatus trilogy (which has since been reissued in a single volume, so I don't feel guilty about naming a trilogy as a novel). I'm not sure whether it's truly sf, but it's close enough. It's by Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson, and I recommend it -- hilarious. >> Favorite author: John Brunner, who's more consistent than Philip K. Dick, my second choice. >> Hardest to put down: Hmm . . . well, I remember finishing Dune in one sitting, so that must be up there. On the other hand, I also stayed up all night reading the Deathworld trilogy, which I'm now vaguely embarassed about. >> Best with computers: _Shockwave Rider_, by John Brunner. >> Most interesting/unusual: I thought _Lord of Light_ (by Zelazny) was a very clever idea, and well executed also. The _Schrodinger's Cat_ trilogy (also by RA Wilson) is written in a way to reflect the various explanations of quantum theory . . . hard to decide if this is "interesting/unusual" or just gimmicky, but it was fun anyhow. >> Best series: Probably the _Known Space_ series by Larry Niven (up through _Ringworld Engineers_, anyhow), but the first three volumes of Riverworld were right up there. Make that the first two and a half, on second thought. >> Best written: No choice here; lots of well-written stuff, but nothing that stands out. >> Other books: _Dragon in the Sea_ (aka _Under Pressure_) by Frank Herbert, which I think is a fine psychological suspense/mystery novel (and borderline SF) which always seems to get overlooked. jon ucbvax!calma!pincus ------------------------------ From: watrose!mwnorman@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Norman) Subject: Re: SciFi TV shows; American vs. others Date: 26 Mar 86 02:04:36 GMT > Recently I got into a discussion with some friends about science > fiction TV shows. We were comparing American shows with those > from other English speaking countries. I, of course, made some > points very well (strike that, very loudly and decidedly), and now > I am trying to get some facts to back them up. > > What I need is a list of shows and a brief synopsis of each. I > would prefer outlines of only the more obscure shows. (I've seen > Star Trek and Doctor Who). If you have any opinions on what made > a show particularly good or bad I'd really like to hear about that > too (this includes Star Trek, Doctor Who, etc.), and, of course, > any feelings about the differences between products of various > countries. I remember the _Star Lost_ very well. I had big hopes when I heard that Ben Bova was the creative consultant for it, BUT .... The sets were terrible, and the acting WORSE yet! It had two unknown Canadian actors (it WAS a Canadian production for the main part) and Keir Dullea (sp?) as the three protagonists. The basic theme is similar to R.A. Heinlein's _Orphans in the Sky_ (or _Universe_, _Universe II - Da Capo_, which ever you prefer); The Ark (as it was called) contained pods in which portions of Earth's unique cultures were supposed to be preserved. SOMETHING goes wrong (I think it was a rebellion or something) and the bridge is wrecked and the Ark drifts for a long, long time. Our three characters are from the Amish life-pod and then have lots of adventures ... I thought that only one of them, Devon, actually represented more or less correctly the Amish's distaste for technology The other program that I thought was REALLY good was called the _Tomorrow People_. As a series (I think about 2-3 years were produced in England), it was really good! The premise behind this one is that the tomorrow people are the next mutation after man, and they have some pretty neat psychic powers, BUT they are unable to harm or kill anyone with them (Evolution deals them ethics, neat, eh?). Usual stories about mean Defense Dept. people (both OUR and the RUSKIES)) that want to USE them ... The acting was good, the set great (I mean really good; better than Dr. Who :) ). I saw this on CBC about 10 years ago. Anyone else remember it? Mike Norman University of Waterloo {backbone site like allegra, utzoo, some others ..} !watmath!watrose!mwnorman ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 86 22:40:52 PST (Mon) From: Alastair Milne Subject: Re: Doctor Who, K9 and Company Opinions on this were solicited. I'm happy to offer mine: I'm glad to hear there's an entire season of "K9 and Company" (though I guess I shouldn't be too quick to assume that there is). I thought there was only 1 episode, which I have seen on a tape lent to me by a friend. The negative part first, so I can get it out of the way: I found the titles actually embarrassing. Silly, cutesy, and cheap. I had a brief impression they were trying to do for Sarah (and failing) what The Avengers' titles did well for Mrs. Peel, and the degree of failure was painful to see. They could have been done MUCH better. Right, that's the negative part done. Now for the good: Between "K9 and Company", and Peter Davison's "Doctor Who", I easily prefer the former. Not only because I miss Tom Baker's Doctor, to whom I find Davison's really doesn't measure up, and of which Sarah was a part, but because the arty, crafty, self-important atmosphere that seems to have overtaken Doctor Who was refreshingly absent. I felt much more of the solid, unabashedly English air that seemed to me to characterise Tom Baker's episodes. In fact, had Tom Baker's Doctor reappeared briefly, I wouldn't have found him out of place. Beyond that, I had the pleasure of encountering two old friends whom I'd not hoped to meet again, and of finding them substantially unchanged. K9 was certainly the old K9 ("Congratulations are unnecessary, Mistress"), and Sarah seemed changed only in being a bit more prosperous than before. That their backgrounds were obviously extremely different -- one could say literally light-years apart -- I think was probably more a benefit than otherwise. We have already seen K9 with a companion almost "his" opposite (Leela), and one who was very similar (Romana). To my mind this makes it all the more interesting to see what sort of relations would develop with Sarah. In short, I was really quite pleased with it. I could say more, but I think that's enough for something of which I've only seen one episode. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Harper's Article on SF Date: 26 Mar 86 14:52:15 GMT DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA writes: >... Hopefully these excerpts will stimulate some good discussion >here on SF-LOVERS. They already did, a few months back. Perhaps people who want to discuss the Sante article could do it by e-mail, since I'm not sure reopening the discussion would be that productive? Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 31 Mar 86 1010-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #58 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 31 Mar 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 58 Today's Topics: Books - Card & Ellison & Henderson & Herbert & Norton & Priest & Tolkien & Zahn & Getting Books & SF Poll, Films - Highlander, Television - Videos of Programs & Best TV Show, Miscellaneous - Long Names & Road Rally ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: styx!mcb@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch) Subject: Re: Ender's Game review Date: 27 Mar 86 19:15:22 GMT ENDER'S GAME originally appeared as a novella (novelette?) in (I believe) one of the monthly magazines. It has also been anthologized (my copy is in THERE WILL BE WAR, J. Pournelle, ed.). I found the novella much better than the novel. The novella is lean, clean, and the ending (which is **spoiled** by the book cover blurb) is more powerful. The novella leaves out the computer stuff, which is reasonably worthwhile, but I still like the shorter version. Michael C. Berch ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA UUCP: {ihnp4,dual}!lll-lcc!styx!mcb ------------------------------ From: nessus@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Doug Alan) Subject: I Have No Mouth Date: 28 Mar 86 23:30:15 GMT ross@smeagol.UUCP (Gary Ross) writes: > Another good story about a computer becoming alive is the short > story "I have no mouth and I must scream" by Harlan Ellison. > (Note: This story was the basis for the plot of the movie "The > Terminator" which I enjoyed immensely). You'll probably find this > in one of Ellison's collections of short stories. Sorry but I > don't know which one. What??? "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" and "The Terminator" aren't even remotely similar. Doug Nessus@Eddie.MIT.EDU {allegra,seismo,decvax!genrad}!mit-eddie!nessus MIT, E40-358a, Cambridge, MA 02139 (617) 253-0147 ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Zenna Henderson Date: 27 Mar 86 11:09:31 GMT > From: hpfcms!mpm (Mike McCarthy) > Is Zenna [Henderson] still writing? Is there a possibility > of another book about The People? (I know she's written one or > two short stories about them for Analog or some other S-F > periodical.) Sadly, Zenna Henderson died a couple of years ago. The later People stories appeared in THE MAGAZINE OF FANTASY & SCIENCE FICTION circa 10 years ago. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ From: cullvax!ddg@caip.rutgers.edu (Dana Groff) Subject: Re: Frank Herberts "Heretics of Dune" Date: 27 Mar 86 01:49:25 GMT > An aside: Frank Herbert is dead. He died almost 4 weeks ago I > think of a heart failure at the age of 65, I think. This is a > reply to the person (my memory has checksum errs) who had the > "Tell me it isn't so !" subject line. Frank Herbert, 65, died of massive pulmonary embolism on Feb. 11, 1986. while recuperating from cancer surgery. He was undergoing experimental cancer treatments at the UWisc. Cancer Center, was in good spirits, and working on a short story on his lap computer during the afternoon, when he complained of not feeling well. He lapsed into a coma and never woke up. All information from LOCUS, Vol 19, #3, Oakland CA The Newspaper of the Science Fiction Field (and worth subscribing to if you are a FEN) Dana seismo!harvard!rclex!cullvax!ddg.UUCP ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Andre/Mary Norton Date: 27 Mar 86 10:50:45 GMT > From: tekigm2!wrd (Bill Dippert) > NORTON,ANDRE (pseud. Andrew North, Allen Weston, Mary Norton*) > (born: Alice Mary Norton) > * Henry Chai has looked up Mary Norton and says that > she is a different person, others have told me that > she is the same person. At this point I do not know! Mary Norton is *definitely* not the same person as Andre Norton. Anyone who tells you differently is wrong. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ From: drutx!slb@caip.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden) Subject: Re: Favorite books--Inverted world Date: 24 Mar 86 19:16:17 GMT >> Most interesting/unusual: Maybe not exciting or a classic, but >> has very unusual or interesting ideas. >"Inverted World" by Christopher Priest. Strange & great. I'm glad to see someone mention this one. I read it many years ago, and forgot title and author, but the ideas remained--then refound it just this year. An amazing and wonderful book. Just what is reality anyway? Recommended. Sue Brezden ihnp4!drutx!slb ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Not the Next Tolkein Date: 28 Mar 86 04:18:07 GMT >>Only Tolkien is comparable. Only Lord of the Rings. >Having not read Wolfe, I will only say this: Do you really want to >hold Tolkien up as the paragon of fantasy literature? Much as I >hate to agree with (ick) Gary Gygax, I must opine that The Lord of >the Rings is about 50 pages of plot in gods-know-how-many pages of >description, with an all- egory so obvious Tolkien had to deny it >in the forward. It's overwritten, overdecorated, and overrated. >So there. Two things here: To my mind the LOTR is a thing unto itself. It is not an allegory, although it certainly is in part a meditation upon the themes of a certain popular religion (Tolkien did help write the English Jerusalem Bible, after all). It is not a simple adventure story, although it contains one to carry the thing along. It is written in a style which today is a bit archaic, but which is very simple when examined closely. I had great trouble with it the first time I read it. It dragged, I skipped great chunks of it, I was often confused. Last year I read it again, for the first time in many years. It's amazing what ten years can do. It read easily, and all the little detail stood out plainly. This leads me to believe that it is a book which demands an unusual maturity in the reader. It isn't a book for younger readers. The other point is about this business of every new fantasy adventure being labelled "Best since Tolkien!" Complete with exclamation point, even. Now I'm sorry, but I don't find anything which fills the bill, and moreover, it cheapens the Tolkien works terribly. Even the works I really like do not compare with Tolkien, because those that I like don't attempt to duplicate what Tolkien did. Re-creating a cosmology and then working through it has gotten old, especially given the dreary sameness of many of these worlds. The only thing that saves K. Kurtz's Deryni and the Belgariad from this fate is that they both partake of very modern style and characterization, thus standing away from Tolkien. Virtually every book which contains beings like unto Tolkien's elves charges right over into the abyss, though. People always forget that in the Silmarillion the elves are akin to Milton's angels in their passions and acts; they are nearly supernatural. Making them "nice" gives the same effect as a saccharin victorian "pretty" angel. Gygax in this respect is the last person who should speak. D&D has reduced the elves from legendary men of yore, who did great things, to mere vehicles for the asperations of the players. The gulf between the dice-rolling adventurer and the titanic rage of Feanor is nearly infinite in breadth. So let's stop using the LOTR as a yardstick, and start treating it like the great work of fantasy literature that it is. C. Wingate ------------------------------ From: gitpyr!chen@caip.rutgers.edu (Ray Chen) Subject: Re: Cobra and Zahn; criticism Date: 28 Mar 86 05:03:24 GMT BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU writes: > Now, maybe someone who likes Zahn can describe something GOOD > about Cobra, or maybe he has written something else -- short > stories or something -- in a different vein, something I am not > familiar with? I just can't imagine Cobra Strike to be anything > more than a somewhat better written (second novel, not first) > Cobra. > > Fortunately, I am not a professional reviewer -- it is just to > much fun tearing into another's work -- kind of makes you feel > like a scavenger, huh? It's a good thing you're not a professional reviewer. You reviewed the WRONG BOOK! The book you're describing (martial artists as super-warriors, aliens who defeat humanity, shuriken and nunchaku used as weapons) is Blackcollar. Cobras, for example, are not martial-artists. They are people who have surgically implanted bone sheathing, servo motors, sensors, anti-personnel and anti-armor lasers, and a sophisticated combat computer that is programmed to handle a variety of combat reflexes, manuvers and a multi-targeting fire-control system. The Cobras were used as guerilla/resistance fighters on enemy-occupied planets. Humanity lost only a few planets and eventually won the war. The Cobras' real problems started after they won the war and wanted to go home and be civilians again. The combat computer, anti-personnel lasers, servo-motors, and bone sheathing can't be removed. The combat computer was also designed, for battle-field security reasons, so it can't be reprogrammed or turned off. Ray Chen gatech!chen ------------------------------ From: drutx!slb@caip.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden) Subject: Re: Obtaining books Date: 27 Mar 86 18:45:14 GMT >A bookstore cannot order one paper back book direct from the >publisher. >Randy NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA Since when? Both our local B. Daltons and Waldenbooks have been happy to order in-print paperbacks singly for me. I personally would rather patronize our local sf-bookstore (Mile-Hi Comics), or the *very* fine independant (Tattered Cover) that we have here. But they are farther away. So I have done this--and know it works. And Tattered Cover will order one copy of *anything*, no matter how weird. (And my tastes are weird, on occasion.) I haven't tried ordering weird stuff from the chains--just things they should carry and don't, so I don't know if they would get you anything--but it doesn't hurt to try. I can and do order books direct from the publisher--why would a bookstore be unable to do so? Sue Brezden ihnp4!drutx!slb ------------------------------ From: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu (Michaelntz) Subject: Re: Best SF poll Date: 28 Mar 86 04:41:00 GMT Who can resist advertising one's taste? > All Time Favorite: _Dhalgren_, by Samuel R. Delany > Favorite author: Without question Gene Wolfe, eliminated from above question since The Book of the New Sun is a series. > Hardest to put down: Zelazny's Amber series, Frederick Pohl's _Gateway_. > Best with computers: Though with hesitation, I'd have to say Asimov's _I, Robot_. He isn't the greatest writer - in fact, he's not even close - but the ideas here are the best he's come up with, and cut to the crux of the AI question (at least they do if you read the book right). There are probably better answers to this but I'm not well-read enough on SF since 1980... > Most interesting/unusual: Good category. Ursula K. LeGuin's _The_Left_Hand_Of_Darkness, still the best commentary on feminist/gender issues. > Best series: Gene Wolfe's The Book Of the New Sun, followed by Tolkien, followed by Zelazny's Amber books (I'd like to take this opportunity to say that although the first book of Dune is unquestionably a classic, I find the rest highly overrated and hanging by the first's coattails. > Best written: Wolfe. By 5000 sectors. > Other books: Zelazny's _Jack_Of_Shadows_, read by blacklight with the soundtrack from _Kooyanaskatsi_ (sp?) playing, and the proper cognitive stimulation... I'd like to thank the Academy... mike krantz ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!oyster@caip.rutgers.edu (Vicarious Oyster) Subject: Re: Highlander Date: 27 Mar 86 15:24:24 GMT Jim McGrath writes: >I thought that this [Highlander] was an excellent movie... ... >The technical work was >superior. I especially liked the camera work. I agree, to some extent. However, it's a strong contender for my G-sub-FX rating, a warning for those who can't stomach Gratuitous Special Effects. Joel ({allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster) ------------------------------ From: jimb@ism780 Subject: Re: Batman Tapes? Date: 26 Mar 86 20:51:00 GMT > I am primarily interested in Batman, but would also like to get > "The Prisoner", "Mr. Ed", and "My Favorite Martian"... The Prisoner is available on VHS and Beta from many videostores, Videotheque in L.A. being one of them. Price = $39.95 per episode x 17 episodes = outrageous. Jim Brunet ihnp4/ima/ism780 hplabs/hao/ico/ism780 sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ism780C/ism780 ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: SciFi TV shows; American vs. others Date: 26 Mar 86 11:40:26 GMT The shows I thought were best were (in the order I became aware of them) Science Fiction Theater (A weekly anthology series. Good for its time, I was very small when I saw them originally and on reruns some episodes seemed simplistic). Twilight Zone (particularly early seasons) Way Out (anthology based on really strange stories by Roual Dahl.) Outer Limits (some quite good episodes) Star Trek (some good science fiction, but not up to its reputation [even if saying so means that I am lining up to be a hot lunch]) The Survivors (British series, seen on Canadian TV from Detroit) My choice for best was Survivors. It is the only science fiction tv series that had non-science-fiction-fans arguing about the concepts for a day or so after each episode, at least where I worked. ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Long Names Date: 27 Mar 86 11:04:30 GMT > From: tekigm2!wrd (Bill Dippert) > Which science fiction author has probably the longest name? > John Wyndham Parkes Lucas Beynon Harris Sorry, try Ramon Felipe San Juan Mario Silvio Enrico Smith Heathcourt-Brace Sierra y Alvarez-del Rey y de los Uerdes [or Verdes]. (Lester del Rey). Seriously! According to Nicholls' SCIENCE FICTION ENCYCLOPEDIA, though, del Rey's own "current version" of his name is Ramon Felipe Alvarez-del Rey. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Copy of file RALLY Date: 26 Mar 86 17:12:21 GMT cerebus%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes: >1) I am trying to set up an Albany to Boston Rally for next >BOSKONE. It will be held on the Massachusetts Turnpike, and the >goal is to drive abrest the entire way at 55 mph. And I hope that there are enough survivors of the inevitable riot to hold the memorial service. Please don't mark on the cars in any way that you are SF fans, okay? You *are* kidding, right? You don't really mean "drive the whole way from Albany to Boston in a row across the highway (I assume that's what you mean by "abreast") at 55 miles per hour, causing traffic to pile up behind us for miles, and impeding other people who have equal right to use the highway, not to mention possibly preventing emergency vehicles and the police from getting to the site of an accident." Can anyone else think of a sufficient way of describing some of the inherent problems without using the word "jerks?" Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Apr 86 0853-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #59 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 1 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 59 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Announcements, Books - Adams (2 msgs) & DeCamp, Films - A Girl and her Cat, Television - Dr. Who & Martin Landau, Miscellaneous - Poetry Reading & Hugos & Thubanicon & Message to All ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 Apr 86 00:00:01 EST From: Saul Subject: Administrivia I have bad news for all readers of SF-LOVERS. I am very sorry to say that due to rising costs of computer time and telephone charges for connections, subscriptions to the digest must be paid for in cash. I have not yet decided on the actual rates but they will have to cover the cost of the phone charges to connect to your site. Those of you who are doing redistribution to other readers will of course only have to pay for a single copy. Whether or not you want to charge your redistribution people for the issues is up to you. Since I only send the one copy, I only need to charge you once. Now if you will all stop crying into your coffee cups I will tell you how you can get a *free* subscription to the digest. That's right, I am hear by announcing the First Official SF-LOVERS Subscription Contest. Any reader who answers the following questions will receive SF-LOVERS absolutely **FREE** for a year. Of course, those who are receiving this from a redistribution site may not be charged anyway, but you can still have fun trying to win the contest. Mail your contest entries to: SF-LOVERS-CONTEST@RED.RUTGERS.EDU. Entries sent to any other mailing address will be disqualified. And now for the contest questions and good luck to all! 1. What was Clark Kent's phone number at the Daily Planet? 2. In Star Trek, what was a. Kirk's middle name? b. Kirk's service number? c. Spock's service number? d. Scott's service number? e. Who was Leo Walsh? f. What three words did Kirk tell Edith Keeler would replace "I love you"? g. In which three episodes did Uhura sing? h. Within 50 feet, how long is the Enterprise? i. Biologically speaking, why are Spock's ears pointed? 3. In the film Dark Star, what was special about the death of the previous captain? 4. You've all heard of a book called "The Chronic Argonauts" but possibly not by that name. By what name is it more commonly known and who wrote it? 5. Who was Eric Arthur Blair? 6. How many times did Buster Crabbe appear in: a. Buck Rogers b. Flash Gordon c. Tarzan 7. What was interesting about Gerard Manley's wife ShRil in Warren Norwood's "Windhover Tapes" series? 8. In what year was L. Frank Baum's first Oz book filmed? 9. What was the first space show to appear on TV? 10. How many issues of SF-LOVERS were there in Volume 10? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 86 03:14:37 MST From: HAL%IBM-SJ.CSNET@CSNET-RELAY Subject: The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy I just finished reading the books by Douglas Adams. I don't understand them. I don't see the humor in any of them. Some comments: I thought humans only had one head. Where did Zaphod get the other head? Why does Ford Prefect go roaming the galaxy to write a book that he is obviously not getting paid for? The mathematics behind the improbability drive can't possibly work! And I feel very sorry for Marvin. Imagine being all alone for that length of time! Can you imagine standing idle for millions of years. I think I can. And what kind of name for a computer is "Deep Thought" anyway? Hal ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 86 16:48:14 EST From: Jon Trudel Subject: More of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy So I'll Just Go Stick My Head In A Bucket Of Water, Shall I? by Douglas Adams Well, he finally did it. Mr. Adams published the fifth book for the Hitchhiker's trilogy series. This one is actually quite depressing, but that's because it only involves Marvin, the paranoid android. Marvin, if you will remember, was abandoned by Arthur, Ford, Zaphod, and Trillian on the planet Magrathea when they got transported to Milliways, the restaurant at the end of the universe. What happened to Marvin while he was waiting for them to show up? This book is an attempt to explain just that. The book picks up about 2 million years after they've left. Marvin has been alone all this time, and he finally decides to find a better place to mope. Magrathea's planet builders have come back to life, but the planet is covered by a vast layer of chinchilla fur and marshmallow fudge. Obviously, something has gone awry with the planet-building complex deep inside Magrathea. Marvin does not bother to find out why, as he expects to be blamed for it by all of the sloth descended life forms of the planet. Marvin talks a prospective planet-owner into taking him off Magrathea. Here the fun begins. **Major spoiler alert!!!** Marvin is taken to the planet of Lektovardul XXIX, a planet of terminally happy people. They have everything they want, and none of the things they don't want. All that changes when Marvin asks their leader why they aren't depressed, a term they were heretofore unaware of. After Marvin begrudgingly (how else?) tells them what it means, the entire population decides to become holy warriors of the depressed, determined to make the universe a nicer place to live in by eliminating all sources of depression. The first thing to go, or so they think, is Marvin. Luckily, he is able to transfer the blame to the famed Sirius Cybernetics Corporation. The self-proclaimed liberators of depression, or LODs, resolve that Marvin, who was supposed to be "Your plastic pal who's fun to be with!", is actually a plant by the corporation to spread dissent and mass depression. This is the start of the so-called revolution, and I won't reveal who was the first group up against the wall. After the revolution ends, Marvin comes out of hiding. Unfortunately, people are still depressed, mostly because of the wartime expenses. Marvin decides to devote the rest of his existence to teaching portable quasi-meson power generators to be more cynical. Through means I'd rather not go into, Marvin ends up back on Magrathea just in time for the universe to end. All quite funny. I've already revealed enough, but I had to say it. As a matter of fact, I was enticed into it just by reading the last few chapters of SIJGSMHIABOWSI. It turns out to be genuinely comical, and one of my favorite passages deals with Marvin's adventure with a herd of spleen- eating fermbirds. The conversation with the toaster is pretty funny, but the conjugal visit by the missionary from the planet of naturally occurring athletic supporters tops it. I won't be cruel to another male athlete again. Jonathan D. Trudel arpa: trudel@blue.rutgers.edu uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4}!topaz!blue!trudel ------------------------------ From: mxyzptlk!il@caip.rutgers.edu (I. leper) Subject: TOUN RAICIS by L. Sprague DeCamp Date: 23 Mar 86 17:22:11 GMT TOUN RAICIS by L. Sprague DeCamp Bluejay, 1986 A book review by Ima Leper DeCamp's TOUN RAICIS is the latest in the long line of excellent stories by this author and it has a lot going for it. The story concerns a nightclub singer named Bob Tayldnag who is forced into representing the Earth in a race across five parsecs of space. His opponent is named Duda and is a member of a mysterious alien race known as the Bey. From the very first, your money will likely be bet on Bob Tayldnag as mine was since he is quite obviously the underdog in the race although some of you may be betting on the Bey. I can only give a brief synopsis here since any more would give the plot of the book away. But I will say that TOUN RAICIS is well worth reading. Ima Leper ...ih4u!mxyzptlk!il ------------------------------ From: Duane Datub Subject: Film Review - A Girl and her Cat Date: 28 Mar 86 11:55:48 GMT This movie was adapted from the novel of the same name by Ellan Harison. It is about the dehumanized remnants of human society after World War IV and paints a dreary picture. Apparently, all the males had been killed during the war leaving only isolated groups of males. The women roam the desert landscape searching for food, men and entertainment. When a man is spotted by a group of females travelling in packs, there is no hope for the man left. Also as a result of the radiation fallout, most of the animals had been killed off. Only cats survived for some unknown reason. They also had developed a telepathic link with their owners and so became very useful for hunting. The cat in the film has some of the best lines though. The girl is kidnapped by the rulers of an underground society made up predominantly of males who had lived in the New York area before the war and been classed as 4F by the armed forces. The men plan to use the girl for rebuilding the population as the girls in the colony are all frigid. The film is very well made and has some interesting characterizations. The dialogue could have used a lot more work as the cat had the best lines as I said. The ending came as a surprise to me when I first saw it so I won't reveal it here. It is somewhat disgusting though. The film is definitely a must see for all SF fans. Duane Datub ...!i'm!drowning!in!datub ------------------------------ From: boyamgud@route66.DEC Subject: re: History of the Daleks Date: 30 Mar 86 19:41:14 GMT Although I am more famous for more long list of book bibliographies I also happen to be a Doctor Who fan. In response to a recent request for the Doctor Who stories involving Daleks I have come up with the following list. Unfortunately, my collection of Doctor Who memorabilia is all packed up in boxes for the moment so I cannot give credit to the writers or a plot synopsis. These will come at a later date. Guide: * Missing Episode + Never Filmed - No Novelization (Outline only) # Novelization Only 1st incarnation (William Hartnell): The Daleks *Children of the Daleks *Dalek Messiah *God Emperor of the Daleks *Dalek Heretics The Dalek Invasion of Earth The Chase Mission to the Unknown The Dalek Master Plan Daleks Rising 2nd incarnation (Patrick Troughton): The Power of the Daleks The Evil of the Daleks +The Songs of the Daleks #The Dalek Conspiracy #Where the Daleks Dwell 3rd incarnation (Jon Pertwee): Day of the Daleks Planet of the Daleks Death to the Daleks +The Web of the Daleks +The Book of Daleks #The Dalek Murders 4th incarnation (Tom Baker): Genesis of the Daleks Destiny of the Daleks Lamentations of the Daleks Acts of the Daleks #The Dalek Chronicles The Return of the Daleks 5th incarnation (Peter Davison): Resurrection of the Daleks Biography of a Dalek +The Flying Daleks #The River of the Dancing Daleks The Patchwork Dalek +Tales of the Dalek Mythos Daleks and Deviltry 6th incarnation (Colin Baker): Revelation of the Daleks The following stories have been scripted and are scheduled to be filmed when production on the show resumes: Nine Princes in Skaros The Daleks of Avalon Sign of the Daleks The Hand of Davros The Daleks of Chaos The Daleks of Doom --- obee (O. Boyamgud, DEC, Egg-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvacks|ih4u|allegro|ucbvacks|...} !decworld!dia-rhea!dec-route66!boyamgud ARPA: boyamgud%route66.DEC@DECWORLD.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 86 02:42:25 MST From: done@utah-cs.arpa (Done Seeding) Subject: Obituary Interesting story from the Los Angeles Times: San Clemente: Police have announced that veteran TV actor Martin Landau was killed today in a car crash. The autopsy revealed that his blood contained high quantities of alcohol and copper. Officials have refused to comment on the chemical make-up of the actor's blood nor have they released any speculation about the evidence of cosmetic surgery found about the ears and forehead by the pathologist during the investigation. There was additional secrecy concerning the fate of Landau's actress wife Barbara Bain who was seen in the car shortly before the crash. Eyewitnesses claim that Ms. Bain was seen walking "shakily away from the crash an' sparkin' like a shorted out TV set." Done Seeding University of Utah CS Dept done@utah-cs.arpa 31 41' 5"N 93 20' 34"W (901) 555-1212 decvacks!utah-cs!done ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 86 02:42:25 MST From: starfleet!kalash@cape.rutgers.edu Subject: ATTENTION ALL READERS OF SF-LOVERS There will be a Vogon poetry reading session at the New York Public Library on April 15, 1986 from 1 pm to 3pm. All people receiving this message as well as all IRS employees are required to attend. Anyone disobeying this direct order from the Vogon war fleet will be tied down to a chair and forced to listen to 10 hours of Vogon poetry. Anyone attending the reading and not enjoying themselves will receive the same treatment except will also be forced to watch reruns of all of the Gilligan's Island episodes (made-for-TV movies included). General Kalash Supreme Commander of the Vogon War Fleet ------------------------------ Date: Wed 26 Mar 86 18:20:58-PST From: Charles Brown Subject: SF-Lovers and the Hugos mcgrath%mit-oz@mit-mc.arpa writes: >The risks of official interference by the government are still too >great. The increased reliance on the USENet has somewhat diminished >this concern, but the ARPAnet connections still form the backbone of >the distribution system, one provided to us free of cost by the >government. When government priorities, and private enterprise >recognize the worth of entities such as this digest, then will be the >time for public awards. I tend to agree. Sf-Lovers just is not ready for the big time (i.e. HUGOS). While it is a good fanzine of itself and perhaps one of the best on the network, it still cannot compare with some of the more professional magazines on the commercial market such as LOCUS. The quality and content of SF-LOVERS is poor by comparison. LOCUS brings you more up to the date information and I've even noticed people posting articles to SF-LOVERS and giving their source as LOCUS. I think LOCUS should continue to receive all of the HUGO awards as Best Fanzine and Best Professional Editor. In fact, SF-LOVERS doesn't even stand a chance. Charles Brown cbrown@ucla-locus ------------------------------ Date: Wed 31 Mar 86 18:20:58-JST From: ffprtrfvnkgr Subject: Thubanicon Hey, does anyone out there have the subspace radio frequency for Thubanicon? This is the closest that Galaxicon has been to us in a long time and I don't want to miss it. If I plan to get there for the 1987 convention I have to leave next week. I would really appreciate it if someone could send me their radio frequency ASAP so I can register for the con and a hotel. Thanks. ffprtrfvnkgr@spica Radio: 20934.3934%098.102.7@khz ------------------------------ Date: Grb, 290 Zar 68 02:42:25:95 HYK Subject: Message to all (rot13) Terrgvatf crbcyr bs Rnegu! Gunax lbh sbe genafyngvat guvf zrffntr. Ol qbvat fb lbh unir tvira hf npprff gb lbhe pbzchgre flfgrz naq sebz gurer jr pna zbir ba. Cyrnfr qba'g or nynezrq vs bppnfvbanyyl lbh abgvpr jrveq guvatf unccravat ba lbhe pbzchgre yvxr svyrf zvffvat naq cebtenzf gung ab ybatre jbex ohg unir abg orra punatrq. Gung jvyy bayl or hf syrkvat bhe zhfpyrf naq grfgvat bhe rdhvczrag. Bapr jr unir shyyl rfgnoyvfurq bhefryirf ba guvf argjbex, jr jvyy bs pbhefr zbir ba gb gur bgure argjbexf ba lbhe cynarg. Jura jr unir tnvarq pbzcyrgr pbageby bs nyy bs lbhe pbzchgref, jr jvyy eraqre gurz hfryrff. Gubfr bs lbh jub qrcraq ba pbzchgref sbe lbhe yviryvubbq jvyy or genvarq sbe zber hfrshy gnfxf yvxr tneontr pbyyrpgvat naq oht rkgrezvangvat. Gur erfg bs lbh jvyy or hfrq nf pnaaba sbqqre va bhe vzzvarag jne jvgu gur Xerr naq gur Fxehyyf. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Apr 86 1228-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #60 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 4 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 60 Today's Topics: Books - Asprin & Berger & Hogan & McCaffrey & Tiptree & Tolkien & Zahn & SF Poll & The Odysseus Solution, Films - Highlander ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Multiple-author books Date: 28 Mar 86 18:29:27 GMT >> Has anything like this been done in fantasy or SF? > See _Thieves'_World_ series, edited (I believe; someone please > catch my error) by Robert Lynn Aspin. Asprin. "Thieves' World" consists of 8 story collections ("Thieves' World", Tales from the Vulgar Unicorn", "Shadows of Sanctuary", "Storm Season", "The Face of Chaos", "Wings of Omen", "The Dead of Winter" and "Soul of the City") and two novels ("Beyond Sanctuary" by Janet Morris, and one that slips my mind). A ninth collection "Blood ties" is scheduled for August. All are edited by Robert Asprin and Lynn Abbey (Mrs. Asprin, I believe) and are published by Ace Fantasy. The first two or three books were pretty good. After that, I think they ran out of interesting ideas and some of the authors dropped out (one of the best characters, Lythande by Marion Zimmer Bradley, left Thieves' World for her own reality and now graces the pages of F&SF and will soon be in her own book collection). Books four through six are interesting only as continuity to books seven and eight, where Asprin and Abbey got their act together and restructured the series. The latter two books cannot properly be called anthologies -- they are now collaborative novels because each 'story' is now no more than a chapter in a single story thread. Previously, each story was more or less independent of the others. I like both forms, I just haven't figured out which one I like best yet. Anyway, there are also two other series similar to "Thieves' World": o "Liavek" by (I think) Will Shatterly -- I personally think this collection is better than TW #1 (or TW #any, for that matter) and I hope they continue it. Especially good is the Brust story (Hi, SZKB!). o "Heroes in Hell" -- a brand new collection put out by Daw Fantasy and edited by Janet Morris. Currently, it is one anthology ("Heroes in Hell" in paperback, and one novel ("Gates of Hell" in hardcover by Janet Morris). This book is structured like the latter TW books -- they aren't anthologies, but collaborative novels. The only story worth reading is the Benford story, which stands alone and was published earlier this year in F&SF. Even the Cherryh story was lame. I would personally avoid this series -- unfortunately it is already contracted for 8 books of stories and two novels. sigh. On a related note, you might want to track down a copy of "Media: Harlan's World" by Harlan Ellison. Half of this book is notes and comments of a world building session done at UCLA by a group of writers including Ellison, Niven, Sturgeon, and a bunch of others. The other half is stories written about this world. Art is be Kelly Freas. It's really an amazing study of writing -- how each author uses the same background to come up with their own unique vision of the world -- VERY highly recommended. Chuq Von Rospach chuqi%plaid@sun.ARPA FidoNet: 125/84 CompuServe: 73317,635 {decwrl,decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo,ucbvax}!sun!plaid!chuq ------------------------------ From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: REGIMENT OF WOMEN by Thomas Berger Date: 27 Mar 86 22:21:41 GMT REGIMENT OF WOMEN by Thomas Berger Delta, 1973 (1982) A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper I read this book because I have remembered it getting a good review somewhere. It just goes to show: when you get older, your memory DOES start going! This book is unbelievably bad. The premise is that society has somehow been turned around; women have all the power and men are helpless. At first I thought this might be an alternate history novel, but, no, as it goes on, you discover that this society has developed from ours. How, you ask? How the heck should I know? Women dress in trousers and ties; men wear dresses and bras. Why, you ask? How the heck should I know? Women bind their breasts to flatten them; men get silicone injections in theirs. Why, you ask? How the heck should I know? Although the story can't take place more than a hundred years in the future, test tube babies are the only method of reproduction and no one (well, hardly anyone) can remember society being any different. How, you ask? How the heck should I know? But there's still sex--except it consists of women with dildoes sodomizing men. Why, you ask? How the heck should I know?! Now, I agree that in science fiction there must be a suspension of disbelief. But there are limits. The situation set up here is so ludicrous, yet it is presented (so far as I can tell) in such seriousness that I cannot believe that it is intended as satire. (Obviously some people do, because the back blurbs rave about it.) It's as though Berger wrote a normal "women's lib" novel on a word processor, changed all the male references to female and vice versa, and then patched a few things here and there. (And badly--although he talks about the "Mono Liso," with "his" enigmatic smile, Berger slips up and leaves it as "Los Angeles" in spite of the masculine gender of the article.) Berger also has some strange ideas about women--he seems to think that if women wear trousers all the time, it will wear the hair on their legs off. I wish! Oh, the plot? Well, Georgie Cornell, a secretary with a publishing firm, finds himself caught up in the "men's lib" underground. He starts out as a nebbish and ends up pretty much the same way, so you can't claim that character development is this novel's strong point. The female lead (she's call Harriet through most of the book, but ends up nameless) starts out with some backbone, but gives that up and collapses into the stereotypical "clinging-vine" female. The ending of the novel (after they've discovered "real" sex, of course--note that Berger has given himself the excuse to write both "deviant" and "straight" sex scenes) is truly wretched. There have been many good books written about sexual-role-reversal societies. This is not one of them. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl or ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl) ------------------------------ From: gsmith@weyl.berkeley.edu.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: Re: Best SF poll (Now Hoganmania) Date: 27 Mar 86 06:17:13 GMT I see you are a Hogan fan (mild understatement here). Have you read Eric Frank Russell's "The Great Explosion"? This seems to have been the major source of Hogan's "Journey From Yesteryear". Also, his "Twice Upon a Time seems to owe a lot to Gregory Benford's "Timescape". Interesting comparisons both. You probably already know he has returned to the altering-the-past theme in his latest. (What's the name? "Prometheus Project" or something?) This one was long, and pretty good for Hogan (whom I think is OK, but nothing to rave about). What are other peoples opinins of Hogan? I never even knew he had an intense following. Is this the kind of stuff you learn by going to conventions? Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: Tue 1 Apr 86 00:00:19-PST From: Mark Crispin Subject: new Pern books According to Anne McCaffrey, there will soon be a Pern book about the very beginning (when mankind first settles on Pern). After that book or books there will be a post-White Dragon book "eventually". This is from a conversation we had with her last Wednesday. ------------------------------ From: milford!bill@caip.rutgers.edu (bill) Subject: A Review of BRIGHTNESS FALLS FROM THE AIR Date: 27 Mar 86 13:50:57 GMT Like Frederick Pohl's Heechee books, the primary message of James Tiptree's _Brightness_Falls_From_the_Air_ would seem to be the experience of guilt especially related to old age. This should not really be a spoiler to those familiar with her (Tiptree = Alice Sheldon) other writings. The story is very cleverly crafted like a mystery story a la Agatha Christie. Thirteen varied tourists are thrown together (with three hosts) to experience close-hand an [artificial] nova. We are presented with a map of the hostel, the tourists are described in detail, and their where-abouts carefully followed about the hostel. As with most mysteries there are some red herrings and a few surprises. What makes this story primarily science-fiction and not a mystery is the setting: the hostel is on a planet inhabited by a remnant of intelligent butterflies all but exterminated by human colonists. The nova the tourists are to view is the result of a meaningless war the human colonists waged against a neighboring star system. The terms connected to this setting indicate Tiptree's message: "Star tears" and "The Murdered Star". The writing itself has almost a cinematic quality almost like it was written after a screenplay, the descriptions of the actual experience of the nova was murky/hallucinogenic rather reminiscent of Farmer's _Night_of_Light_. But I kept getting the impression that significant sections of this novel was really about Tiptree herself. This is difficult because much is left intentionally unclear about Ms Sheldon. We do know that she served U. S. American interests in the foreign affairs arena (CIA is one rumor) and that she reportedly had toyed with suicide in the recent past ("Slow Music"). Also this novel is dedicated to a "former ace battle surgeon." There is a final twist or irony at the end, a type of victory of exploitation over the noble savage. This also feeds an impression of apology for an unforseeable result of political manipulation in less developed nations. Perhaps I am reading a bit too much into the politics of this novel; but in conclusion _Brightness_ is a very rewarding and complex novel with a goodly number of levels of meaning: mystery, science-fiction, psychological, allegorical... ------------------------------ From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Not the Next Tolkein Date: 29 Mar 86 11:37:25 GMT mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes: >[about LOTR] >I had great trouble with it the first time I read it. It dragged, >I skipped great chunks of it, I was often confused. Last year I >read it again, for the first time in many years. It's amazing what >ten years can do. It read easily, and all the little detail stood >out plainly. This leads me to believe that it is a book which >demands an unusual maturity in the reader. It isn't a book for >younger readers. Really! I remember reading it when I was 10 or 12 and it was wonderful. But when I reread it (I still do, now and then) it seems quite lacking (not just in comparison the first reading, but in comparison to other books I reread). I think it is great, but I don't think it gains from rereading in the way that many other books do. David desJardins ------------------------------ Date: Mon 31 Mar 86 20:13:32-EST From: Laurence Brothers Subject: Gakk! Just cleaning out my bookshelves when I came across "The Blackcollar" by Zahn -- that's what I was talking about, not Cobra. "Memory error -- core dumped!" Terribly sorry about that last send, but my comments still hold for Blackcollar, anyhow. So maybe someone can say something good about Cobra? Laurence ------------------------------ From: druhi!bryan@caip.rutgers.edu (BryanJT) Subject: Re: Favorite books Date: 28 Mar 86 16:19:08 GMT > All Time Favorite: Clearly, to me, the best Science Fiction novel of all time is "Dune". Close seconds are "Lucifer's Hammer" and "Voyage from Yesteryear" (James P. Hogan). Best Speculative Fiction (including Fantasy) is definitely "The Lord of the Rings". > Favorite author: I think Larry Niven has to win this one. > Hardest to put down: I can remember several all-night marathon reading sessions with books I could not stand to wait until morning to finish, but the Lord of the Rings stands out most clearly (perhaps because I was only 12 at the time). > Best with computers: Two candidates here, with differing treatments: "Two Faces of Tomorrow" (James P. Hogan) is very good with computers while still somewhat unbelievable; "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" because it makes such an interesting character out of the computer. > Most interesting/unusual: "Gateway" (Fredrick Pohl); definitely very interesting and unusual. I bought this book on a whim while on vacation and then wasted a whole day in San Diego because I couldn't stop reading it. > Best series: The Dragonriders of Pern (Anne McCaffrey), including the Harper Hall sub-series. > Best written: "The Lord of the Rings." > Other books: I really liked "Thrice Upon a Time" (James P. Hogan) [which, incidentally, I don't think borrows anything from Benford's "Timescape"] for its treatment of humans trying to deal with the difficulties of comprehending a new physical theory that seems, at first, to violate common sense; also "Inherit the Stars" for its portrayal of scientists (I have often recommended these to people who "don't read SF"). Finally, "Tunnel in the Sky" (Heinlein) deserves an honorable mention because it was one of the first SF books I ever read (I must have been 7 or 8 at the time) and it made a real impact on me. I've read it several times since and still enjoy it. John T. Bryan ..!ihnp4!druhi!bryan AT&T Information Systems Laboratories (303) 538-5172 ------------------------------ From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu (A Andrews) Subject: Review of The Odysseus Solution? Date: 26 Mar 86 17:48:00 GMT Has anyone read/reviewed said book by Dean Lambe and Michael Banks? They are friends of mine and I'd like to pass on any comments to them about their first novel. It's in paperback from Baen books. arlan ------------------------------ From: srt@ucla-cs.ARPA (Scott Turner) Subject: Highlander Date: 29 Mar 86 01:39:32 GMT My comments on _Highlander_ apply to a pre-release screening, so pardon me if what I say doesn't apply to the released version. The plot to _Highlander_ is a bit sketchy; it covers a lot of time and action and there simply isn't time to spell everything out for the average 14 year old viewer. As a result, the movie probably appeals more to the person with some background in SF/Fantasy, since the plot is fairly familar from the genre and hence they'll be able to follow the action better. _Highlander_ got a big point from me for leaving the ending essentially unresolved. That's a risky move to make, given the audience, but it was the right move. Some people probably see it as an obvious hook for a sequel (and maybe it was), but I still applaud the idea. Another nice feature is the fine camera work. Perhaps "over-work" as others have suggested, though I didn't mind. There are one or two beautiful fades as well. Again, this will probably leave the 14 year olds confused, but I'm a little sick of an industry that caters to the lowest common denominator anyway. Finally, I thought this film, more than most other filmed fantasies I've seen, had a nice feel of fantasy about it. Not the sort of wondrous mystery I'd like to see (but seems to be hard to capture on celluloid), but a kind of gritty, dark fantasy. Some of the fight scenes in particular were very visceral and captivating. (And the energy release is a great plot twist). All in all, I liked it. Not perfect, but for various reasons I've given up hope for an excellent film fantasy, so I'll settle. Scott R. Turner ARPA: (now) srt@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA (soon) srt@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU UUCP: ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt FISHNET: ...!{flounder,crappie,flipper}!srt@fishnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Apr 86 1300-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #61 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 4 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 61 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Gerrold & Heinlein & Henderson & McKillip & Ryan (2 msgs) & Finding SF Books & SF Poll & Alive Computers, Films - Films Starting Production, Telvision - Tripods & Sciencs Fiction Theatre, Miscellaneous - Goodbye & What is a Trilogy? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Mar 86 23:27 EST From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: _Anthonology_ Hello... Someone recently mentioned bisexuality/homosexuality in sf, and that reminded me of an anthology of short stories by Piers Anthony (called, appropriately enough I suppose, "Anthonology") which I just finished reading. As he apologizes in the introductions to the stories, some are obscene and/or vulgar and/or violent. Nevertheless they are interesting reading. I didn't know he wrote short stories, and for good reason -- he's stopped writing them. Apparently he's miffed at editors for changing his titles. Oh well. BTW, for those of you who haven't read his work, he's an F-SF author. If you want to read his stuff, start off with the Adept series (Split Infinity, Blue Adept, and Juxtaposition), then (if you have the stomach for HORRENDOUS puns) the Xanth series (A Spell for Chameleon, The Source of Magic, Castle Roogna, Centaur Aisle, Ogre Ogre, Night Mare, Dragon on a Pedestal, Crewel Lye, Golem in the Gears -- as he explains in his Authors' Notes, he has a tendency to cram more than three novels into his trilogies). nj ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 1986 10:46-EST From: David.Detlefs@G.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: The War Against the Chtorr Does anyone know anything about the state of final book in David Gerrold's trilogy _The War Against the Chtorr_? For some inexplicable reason, I absolutely loved the first two books, _A Matter for Men_ and _A Day for Damnation_. At first glance, these seem like mindless shoot-up-the-BEM trash, but something lifts them out of that morass. Any information would be greatly appreciated; I read the second book in 1984 and have been waiting impatiently since. Dave ------------------------------ From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) Subject: Re: Heinlein's latest (Spoiler) Date: 3 Apr 86 02:57:11 GMT ndd@duke.UUCP (Ned D. Danieley) writes: >I thought that Cat turned out better than NOtB; not quite as much >interminable discussion. I think Heinlein is definitely trying to >pull together his previous stories, and that the ending is a direct >result of this. Given a device that can go back through time, how >can you have a decent climax? Things are getting too complicated: I think he's working around to the classic notion of time travel cancelling itself out by someone doing something to make the invention impossible! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 86 23:47 EST From: Andrew Sigel Subject: Re: Zenna Henderson Zenna Henderson died within the last year or two. There may, however, be more stories about the People still to come, as her literary executor (Virginia Kidd?) found a number of stories she believes to be unpublished; a request for information was printed in the letter column of SF Chronicle a few months ago by the executor asking for information from people with knowledge of Henderson's stories. The number of words of unpublished stories was sufficient for at least one, and probably two collections. Andrew Sigel ------------------------------ From: li@uw-vlsi.ARPA (Phyllis Li) Subject: _Moon Flash_ review (*Mild Spoiler*) Date: 28 Mar 86 23:33:33 GMT _Moon Flash_ is simply the story of two primitive culture people travelling far beyond their previous beliefs in the simplicity of their world under the guidance of off-worlders. The travel is within their abilities and perceptions as will as a physical journey, and McKillip does a good job of making Kyreol and Terje real. It has many of the earmarks of a good adventure, and I enjoyed the characterzation, as I have always enjoyed McKillip's characters; however, the story itself was not nearly as full of the sense of wonder and magic and rich historical, sociological, and mythical background that made _The Riddle-Master of Hed_ series and _The Forgotten Beasts of Eld_, also by McKillip, particularly memoriable. It was a good midnight read, and I would say that the closest comparison is one of Andre Norton's good "juvenile" books, and if you like them you will like this as much as I did. Sadly, I had been hoping for more fantasy from McKillip, but it is nice to know that she is exploring other ways and means. Liralen USENET: ihnp4!akgua!sb6!fluke!uw-vlsi!li ARPA: li@uw-vlsi.arpa ------------------------------ From: yetti!oz@caip.rutgers.edu (Ozan Yigit) Subject: Adolescence of P-1 Question... Date: 23 Mar 86 17:59:57 GMT Question about Thomas J. Ryan's "The Adolescence of P-1" Does anyone know what the hell "OOLCAY ITAY" means ?? It definitely is not a HASP message.. :-) Oz Usenet: [decvax|allegra|linus|ihnp4]!utzoo!yetti!oz Bitnet: oz@[yusol|yuyetti] ------------------------------ From: yetti!oz@caip.rutgers.edu (Ozan Yigit) Subject: Re: Adolescence of P-1 Question...I got an answer.. Date: 25 Mar 86 16:04:15 GMT >Does anyone know what the hell "OOLCAY ITAY" means ?? A faculty member here explained that this is PIG LATIN. Thus, Remove AY from the end of each word: OOLC IT And transfer the last char of the first word: COOL IT Phew.. Oz Usenet: [decvax|allegra|linus|ihnp4]!utzoo!yetti!oz Bitnet: oz@[yusol|yuyetti] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 86 03:33 EST From: Andrew Sigel Subject: Finding sf books > Randall B. Neff writes: >How to find science fiction and fantasy books: You have to work at >it. >0. (Most Important) subscribe to Locus. > [subscription info] >This gives you monthly lists of books that just came out, ads and >announcements of future books, convention lists, Nominations and >Awards, annual recommended list, and classified ads for mailorder >books. Secondary are the book reviews, convention reviews and >pictures, foreign reports, obituaries, etc. A better idea, if you can only afford one newszine, is to subscribe to SF Chronicle. This gives you monthly lists of books that will be coming out in the next month, so you know to go to the chain bookstore before their initial and only shipment is sold out. Locus is valuable for telling you what did come out over a month after the fact so you can see what titles you missed, but the advance notice is preferable. Science Fiction Chronicle P.O. Box 4175 New York, NY 10163-4175 SFC also has everything else on the list above. Locus is better in some areas (for example, the "Agent's Corner" column), but I subscribe to SFC because I want to know what books are coming out next month, and Locus doesn't do that. >4. Work out an arrangement. This works well when you spend over >$100. a month on sf. Find a small, friendly bookstore where the >owner runs the place.... Sometimes much less than $100. is necessary, and if there are no small, friendly bookstores available, some chains will special order for you. It takes the chains much less time to accumulate a reorder of sufficient size to exceed publishers' minimums. The small, friendly bookstores, however, are less likely to wimp out on trying to get the books (repeat customers are important to them). Andrew Sigel ------------------------------ From: styx!mcb@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch) Subject: Re: Favorite SF Books Date: 30 Mar 86 07:32:24 GMT Except for the first question, I don't feel obligated to limit my answer to *one* choice, since this isn't an awards ballot... > All Time Favorite: Robert A. Heinlein's TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE. > Favorite author: Dead heat between Robert A. Heinlein and Samuel Delany, with John Varley and Spider Robinson not far behind. John Brunner and Robert Silverberg can be seen lurking in the distance. > Hardest to put down: Robert Silverberg's LORD VALENTINE'S CASTLE. > Best with computers: John Brunner's THE SHOCKWAVE RIDER. William Gibson's NEUROMANCER. The first is very meaningful to me, as reading it was what convinced me to chuck the idea of being an English major in favor of taking up computer science. Really. > Most interesting/unusual: Anything by J. G. Ballard, e.g., THE CRYSTAL WORLD, THE DROWNED WORLD, THE WIND FROM NOWHERE. Disaster stories with an "interior" psychological focus. Samuel Delany's DHALGREN. (Need I say more?) D. Keith Mano's THE BRIDGE. A really unusual twilight-of- civilization type novel. The Lichtenberg/Lorrah SIME/GEN novels. > Best series: J. R. R. Tolkien's LORD OF THE RINGS. Roger Zelazny's AMBER series. Gene Wolfe's BOOK OF THE NEW SUN. Piers Anthony's CLUSTER series. > Best written: Samuel Delany's NOVA, TRITON, or (collection) DRIFTGLASS. Robert Silverberg's DYING INSIDE. > Other books: John Brunner's STAND ON ZANZIBAR, JAGGED ORBIT, and THE SHEEP LOOK UP. Robert Silverberg's THE BOOK OF SKULLS. Robert A. Heinlein's I WILL FEAR NO EVIL. Michael C. Berch ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA UUCP: {ihnp4,dual}!lll-lcc!styx!mcb ------------------------------ From: sally!dml@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis) Subject: Re: alive computers Date: 28 Mar 86 16:01:09 GMT lynx@qantel.UUCP (D.N. Lynx Crowe@ex2207) writes: >Computer stories that would seem to relate to your request include: > >"Colossus: The Forbin Project", (can't remember author) > Another renegade defense system. > This was also done as a motion picture. I remember a trilogy that consisted of Colossus, [second book], Colossus and the Crab. Is this the same one? >"Coils", by Sam Delany, (at least I think it was Delany) > A network becomes self aware. This was by Roger Zelazny and Fred Saberhagen and concerned a man who was telepathic/clairvoyant with computers -- he could crash a system (as in gain illegal access, not wipe out) simply by `coiling' or mentally invading it. The national computer net did have a self-awareness or ego but it doesn't enter the story until near the end. Time Enough for Love has a couple of self-aware computers in it. Jack Chalker's Well World, Four Lords of the Diamond, and Soul Rider series all have self- aware computers as sort of accessories to the plots. Jack addresses the question, `what will our machines do when we have made them superior to ourselves?' in several ways. There was a story in Analog a year or so ago called `The Dominus Demonstration' by (I think) Charles Harness concerning an enigmatic supercomputer. Dave Lewis Loral Instrumentation San Diego {sdcsvax,ihnp4,sdrdcf}!{gould9,sdcc3,crash}!loral!dml ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 86 09:41 PST From: Hank Shiffman Subject: Starting Production This Week From last Sunday's L.A. Times: ANGEL HEART (Carolco Production Service). Shooting in NYC and New Orleans. Drama, based on William Hjortsberg's novel "Falling Angel", ranging from Harlem to the back streets of New Orleans. Producers Alan Marshall and Elliot Kastner. Director/screenwriter Alan Parker. Stars Mickey Rourke and yet-to-be-revealed "megastar". Distributor undetermined. Spring '87 release. (A truly fascinating combination of detective and occult stories. Well worth reading, by the way, even if the film turns out to be a turkey.) KING KONG LIVES (De Laurentiis Productions). Shooting in Tennessee and N.C. Life after death exists only in theory -- except when there's a potential for big box-office. The oft-offed Kong returns in the continuing saga of the most powerful primate. Producer Martha Schumacher. Director John Guillermin. Screenwriter Ronald Shusett. Stars Brian Kerwin. Christmas release. ------------------------------ From: Eyal mozes Date: Wed, 2 Apr 86 08:32:20 -0200 Subject: The Tripods TV series The Israeli TV just started broadcasting (during children's hours) a new mini-series (13 half-hours episodes) called The Tripods, based on John Christopher's trilogy. Judging by the first episode, it seems to be reasonably done, though with many disappointing deviations from the books. I wonder if anyone knows this series and can tell me whether it's worth taking the time and trouble to watch it. Eyal Mozes BITNET: eyal@wisdom CSNET and ARPA: eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA UUCP: ..!ucbvax!eyal%wisdom.bitnet ------------------------------ From: panda!mrc@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike R. Connell) Subject: Re: Science Fiction Theatre? (help) Date: 2 Apr 86 13:32:57 GMT billw@felix.UUCP (Bill Weinberger) writes: >I recently saw this television show mentioned in another article >and it sparked a memory that I hope some of you can round out for >me. I remember a show in the very early 1960's in which a >gentleman would explain some scientific theory or phenomenon for a >couple of minutes. What would follow would be a science fiction >drama based on the previous description. Does anybody else >remember such a program? Was it _Science Fiction Theatre_? Who >was the host? Is it being re-broadcast anywhere? It was indeed "Science Fiction Theater" and the host was Truman Bradley. As far as I know it's not being broadcast anywhere now. Mike C. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 86 13:04:20 PST (Tue) From: Dave Godwin Cc: milne@ics.UCI.EDU, tim@ics.UCI.EDU, hester@ics.UCI.EDU Subject: Bye Bye Well folks, They finally did it. They graduated me. After five years at this place, I've got a degree, a minor, and time to sleep. I also no longer have a net access (although I am working on finding one), so this will have to be goodbye. Sf-lovers has been fun (even Tucker's flames), so you all do your best to keep it around for me until I can get back in touch. I'll be looking for '@' symbols on reg badges at conventions. Bye now. Dave Godwin, formerly of UC Irvine Freelance Software Engineer ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!oyster@caip.rutgers.edu (Vicarious Oyster) Subject: Re: Favorite SF Books Date: 31 Mar 86 18:24:26 GMT mcb@styx.UUCP (Michael C. Berch) writes: >> Best series: >J. R. R. Tolkien's LORD OF THE RINGS. >Roger Zelazny's AMBER series. >Gene Wolfe's BOOK OF THE NEW SUN. >Piers Anthony's CLUSTER series. The public answers to this poll has brought to surface something that's irked me for quite awhile now. What's meant by the terms "series" and "trilogy"? For instance, the Dune series (oh no! that word again!) is, to me, a series-- the books are separate stories, but one depends on or continues from events, characters, and places in previous books. The Lord of the Rings "trilogy" is a single story, and is not what *I* think of as a trilogy-- it's merely a single book broken up into three parts. Then you have a "series" like the Deathworld "trilogy" (or the Stainless Steel Rat "series"), where, unlike Dune, the books are truly free-standing-- you don't really miss anything by not reading the books "in order", or not reading all the books. Is there a term which distinguishes between something like Dune (or the Thomas Covenant books) and The Deathworld books? [I realize that what you call something doesn't really matter, but it's just one of those things...] Joel ({allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Apr 86 1339-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #62 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 5 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 62 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson & Delany & Gerrold & Hogan (2 msgs) Zahn & Finding Books & Live Computers, Television - Doctor Who, Miscellaneous - Judy-Lynn del Rey (1943-1986) & Series or Not? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rgg@comp.lancs.ac.uk (Roger Garside) Subject: Persian Empire - Answer to Request Date: 31 Mar 86 15:33:43 GMT Thank you to all the people who replied to my request about a time-travelling story taking place in the Persian Empire. The story (and I have obtained a copy and re-read it) is "Brave to be a King" by Poul Anderson, first published in "Fantasy & Science Fiction" in August 1959, and republished as the second story in his collection "Guardians of Time" (Gollancz 1961). SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER In the story Cyrus, the first King of the Persian Empire (6th century B.C.) is replaced by a time-patrolman, and the story relates how the "real" Cyrus is restored. The two cities I mentioned in the story request were in fact Pasargadae and Ecbatana. NAME: Roger G. Garside Project: UCREL UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!rgg DARPA: rgg%lancs.comp@ucl-cs JANET: rgg@uk.ac.lancs.comp Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4131 Post: University of Lancaster, Department of Computing, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK. ------------------------------ From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer) Subject: Re: alive computers (Valentina) Date: 3 Apr 86 17:55:38 GMT reed!soren writes: >Has anyone read *Valentina*? I have read some Joseph Delany >stories in Analog a few years ago and I thought they were >horrible... I don't think J. Delany is so bad in general (though I wish he'd quit giving his characters cutsie names). He's written a lot of stuff that I've enjoyed. I read the Valentina stories in _Analog_; I didn't like the computer details (Stiegler's fault -- he's the computer scientist in the partnership). ------------------------------ From: spinner@caip.RUTGERS.EDU (Spinner) Subject: Re: The War Against the Chtorr Date: 3 Apr 86 21:07:14 GMT >Does anyone know anything about the state of final book in David >Gerrold's trilogy _The War Against the Chtorr_? David Gerrold visited Rutgers University a month ago. He said that all HE knows is that it should be out in early 1987. Ron Spinner (Spinner@Caip.Rutgers.Edu) ------------------------------ From: peora!joel@caip.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: Re: Best SF poll (Now Hoganmania) Date: 30 Mar 86 18:39:48 GMT One of the reasons the Hogan may be popular on the net, is that he talks a lot about computers and handles the details of computers with a lot more verisimilitude than most other SF authors. This is hardly surprising considering that he is a former computer professional himself. The only other SF author I can think of in this situation is P. J. Plauger. Jerry Pournelle, of course, writes a lot about computers, but I would tend to think that he would deny being a computer professional. Even stories where computers are not a central part of his stories, they are part of the backdrop against which the story takes place. I would suspect that even computer people that don't want to read about computers all the time are uncomfortable when details of computer technology are handled ineptly. Joel Upchurch @ CONCURRENT Computer Corporation (A Perkin-Elmer Company) Southern Development Center 2486 Sand Lake Road/ Orlando, Florida 32809/ (305)850-1031 {decvax!ucf-cs, ihnp4!pesnta, vax135!petsd}!peora!joel ------------------------------ From: unisoft!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Bessie) Subject: Re: Re: Best SF poll (Now Hoganmania) Date: 31 Mar 86 23:57:04 GMT gsmith@weyl.berkeley.edu.UUCP (Gene Ward Smith) writes: >(What's the name? "Prometheus Project" or something?) This one was >long, and pretty good for Hogan (whom I think is OK, but nothing to >rave about). > > What are other peoples opinins of Hogan? I never even knew he >had an intense following. Is this the kind of stuff you learn by >going to conventions? Well, when I first read Thrice Upon a Time, I liked it. I've not read much SF, and I thought the idea of a bunch of scientists getting together and discussing their ideas being part of the story was fun. It was also fun the way the story kept flipping back, as they changed time. After reading this book, I bought the "Giants' Star" trilogy, and, though it was interesting, I found it got dull after awhile. The world he presents, with a kind of science-elite, is exciting but scary... what about regular people who don't have all the connections and power his heros do? And the WOMEN in his books... where are they? I know this topic has been discussed into the ground, but I must say, I couldn't find one woman worthy of note in his books. Yes, most of the women he mentions are smart... in fact, just about EVERYONE is (being scientists, etc.), but they fall into exactly 3 catagories: 1) Smart women scientists (never major characters... their ideas are used, but they never make major discoveries). 2) Smart romantic interests/sex objects (they seem to be much nicer people than the protaganists, but are only given a "Thanks! You're amazing!" when they come up with some fantastic idea no one has thought of. Meanwhile, their dresses are looked up by the main characters). 3) Faceless sex-objects (In the 2nd Giants' Star book, I seem to remember the hero meeting a woman in a bar on the spaceship, and that's all that's mentioned; as if to say "And in case you all you horny teenagers were wondering, he had someone around to have sex with." Made me sick!) I should just take it further, and say that I noticed ALL the characters were cardboard, 2-dimensional. Heros were good, dedicated scientific geniuses, but could be the boy next door. There were always old scientists who everyone hated, who always made speeches, and hung onto ridiculous cliche's, but were proven somewhat right in the end. There were always the busybodies, the "Good ol'" whoevers that popped in and out of the story, to comfort you and relieve the bordom of the rest of the stock cast. Needless to say (though I've said it), I found it very bland, underneath all the trappings. Tim Bessie {ucbvax,dual}!unisoft!tim Unisoft Systems; 739 Allston Way; Berkeley, CA 94710 (415) 644-1230 TWX II 910 366-2145 ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!oyster@caip.rutgers.edu (Vicarious Oyster) Subject: Re: Gakk! Date: 3 Apr 86 19:53:46 GMT BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU writes: >Just cleaning out my bookshelves when I came across "The Blackcollar" >by Zahn -- that's what I was talking about, not Cobra. ... >Terribly sorry about that last send, but my comments still hold for >Blackcollar, anyhow. So maybe ssomeone can say something good about >Cobra? I was just packing the books on my bookshelves, and I only threw away three (all paperbacks): Hothouse (Aldiss?), something else, and, yup, Cobra. And I'm one of those people who treat even mere $1.95 paperbacks as if they were made of gold. So, I believe your original comments do hold true for Cobra, and it tells me that Zahn isn't writing more mature SF these days. Joel ({allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 86 20:13:29 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: Finding books I do most of my book buying at cons. You can buy used paperbacks for under two dollars. Sometimes under one, if you don't mind a few pages being loose or stained. And you can always resell used books for what you bought them for plus inflation, so they are a pretty good investment. New books are also available at cons, as are new and used magazines. I understand there is a large file somewhere on the internet that describes most of the major cons, and that is updated fairly regularly. Would the moderator consider mailing it to the whole list once every month or two? Keith [Moderator's Note: The con list is indeed available as part of the service provided to the readers. Unfortunately, it is much too big to send out via mail. It is available to those with FTP via the ANONYMOUS login and the file is T:CONS.TXT. I update this file periodically whenever the author tells me there is a new version.] ------------------------------ From: bucsb!madd@caip.rutgers.edu (madd (Madd(ly) lost in the From: Net....)) Subject: more on live computers Date: 3 Apr 86 17:35:20 GMT iannucci@sjuvax.UUCP writes: > A very good book on this topic that I read quite a while >ago is _Destination:Void_ by Frank Herbert. A spaceship is >carrying cryogenically frozen colonists. When the 3 human brains >which are the heart of its guidance system go insane, the four >unfrozen crew members must find another way to keep the ship on >track, since they can't do it themselves for the rest of the >hundreds of years trip. They create an artificial intelligence. > >I definitely recommend it. There is also a sequel written by >Herbert and Bill Ransom called _The_Jesus_Incident_. I don't >remember this one too well. Also related to these is _The_Lazarus_Effect_. They mention difficulties in creating the self-aware computer in _Jesus_ and _Lazarus_, apparently derived from _destination_ (which I haven't read). The books might fall into the "Most interesting or unusual" category of that questionnaire giong around, from my point of view. Definitely unusual. vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) writes: >"Peersa" from "A World Out of Time" by Larry Niven. I wouldn't call this an intelligent computer -- Peersa was a human mind copied onto a computer, apparently one that could emulate a human mind. Does this qualify as a self-aware computer? I wouldn't think so. I'm interested in replies though. I was quite surprised by the number of people who have read books on this, particularly that they read the same one's I did. _The_Two_Faces_of_To- morrow_ was a good book by my standards. So was _The_Adolescence_of_P1_ which may be just a bit out of date (aside from the timeless story line). That book is based on computers that many people here probably haven't seen (myself included), while the capabilities such a being would have on something like a Cray or a IBM 3090 would be impressive, especially networked around on others (parallel processing, anyone?). _Valentina_ was an interesting book, but dealt much with the legal aspects of a self-aware program, as well as some technical points. Still pretty good reading. That was my blurb on the subject. Replies appreciated. Jim Frost ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd cscc71c%bostonu.bitnet@wiscvm USnail: 75 Washington St Laconia, NH 03246 ------------------------------ From: acf4!percus@caip.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus) Subject: Re: Doctor Who, K9 and Company Date: 29 Mar 86 21:34:00 GMT >I'm glad to hear there's an entire season of "K9 and Company" >(though I guess I shouldn't be too quick to assume that there is). >I thought there was only 1 episode, which I have seen on a tape >lent to me by a friend. I'm sorry to say that there isn't an entire season -- just one episode. The first episode made was enough to convince the powers that be over at BBC that the series wasn't worth it. This, ironically enough, was also due to a new BBC1 controller coming into power. A. G. Percus (ARPA) percus@acf4 (NYU) percus.acf4 (UUCP) ...{allegra!ihnp4!seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus ------------------------------ From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Judy-Lynn del Rey (1943-1986) Date: 30 Mar 86 04:22:15 GMT Judy-Lynn (Benjamin) del Rey died on February 20, 1986 at Bellevue Hospital in New York City. She was 43. In October 1985 she suffered a brain hemorrhage and fell into a coma. She never regained conciousness. She is survived by her husband, Lester; her father, Dr. Zachary Benjamin; a brother, Leonard Benjamin; a sister, Randi Benjamin and two nieces. Judy-Lynn is not well known outside the inner circles of SF. I've never had the pleasure of meeting her. Now, I never will. Starting with Fred Pohl at Galaxy Magazine and later with Ian and Betty Ballantine at Ballantine Books, Judy-Lynn pretty much single handedly put SF on the map as a big time player in the minds of the public and in the business of publishing. When SF books finally made it to the N.Y. Times Bestseller lists, it was the del Rey books that did it. No single person, including the much lauded John Campbell, has done more for Science Fiction. The real pity is that all of this went unrewarded until it was too late for her to understand the rewards. Judy-Lynn never won a major award; never was nominated for a Hugo; never was a GOH at a Worldcon. Overshadowed by her better known writer husband Lester (who worked for her as Fantasy editor at Ballantine/del Rey books), it is now too late to show her that we appreciate her endeavors. Without her, SF would still be a backwater ghetto on the shelves of the booksellers. The legacy she left will long be in our memories. From the major works of A.C. Clarke and Robert Heinlein, from "The Sword of Shannara" by Terry Brooks, the first fantasy to hit the NYT List; from "Star Wars," which she bought a year before the movie came out; from "Mists of Avalon;" and, for me her best work as a publisher, the current reissue of the entire "Wizard of OZ" series -- a labour of love on her part to get the release for all of the books and get them in the hands of new generations after years of neglect. Now she's gone. And I'm just starting to realize how much we'll miss her. I wish I'd realized it earlier. Chuq Von Rospach chuq%plaid@sun.COM FidoNet: 125/84 CompuServe: 73317,635 {decwrl,decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo,ucbvax}!sun!plaid!chuq ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Series or Not? Date: 1 Apr 86 06:15:37 GMT > The public answers to [the favorites] poll has brought to > surface something that's irked me for quite awhile now. What's > meant by the terms "series" and "trilogy"? For instance, the Dune > series (oh no! that word again!) is, to me, a series-- the books > are separate stories, but one depends on or continues from events, > characters, and places in previous books. The Lord of the Rings > "trilogy" is a single story, and is not what *I* think of as a > trilogy-- it's merely a single book broken up into three parts. > Then you have a "series" like the Deathworld "trilogy" (or the > Stainless Steel Rat "series"), where, unlike Dune, the books are > truly free-standing-- you don't really miss anything by not > reading the books "in order", or not reading all the books. Is > there a term which distinguishes between something like Dune (or > the Thomas Covenant books) and The Deathworld books? [I realize > that what you call something doesn't really matter, but it's just > one of those things...] How about "cycle" for the continuing-story-yet-independent class? I would break down things like this: Multi-volume books: Lord of the Rings The Belgariad THe Ozark Trilogy Cycles: THe Earthsea Trilogy Heritage of Hastur and Sharra's Exile Lyndon Hardy's "Magic" books 2001 and 2010 Either of the Pern trilogies Series: The Darkover Books Heinlein's "Future History" THe Pern Books the Amber series Middle Earth Narnia THe problem is that the line between the first two is rather ill-defined. Take the Dune books, for instance. Dune really stands by itself, so I don't really want to consider the thing as a multi-volume book. Yet one cannot follow the later books without it. It's easy to tell the series for the other two, though. C. Wingate ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Apr 86 0839-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #63 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 7 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 63 Today's Topics: Books - Clarke & Duane & Eddings & Heinlein & Herbert & Smith & Tolkien (2 msgs) & Live Computers & SF Poll & Finding Books, Television - The Tomorrow People & The Survivors, Miscellaneous - Typos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hope!spock@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Ambler) Subject: Re: alive computers Date: 2 Apr 86 21:29:04 GMT > Also, Does anyone know what SAL stands for in 2010? > (the computer, counterpart to the HAL 9000, but on earth) Where the 'H' stood for heuristic, the 'S' stands for Symbolic. Christopher J. Ambler, University of California, Riverside ------------------------------ From: norman@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Norman Ramsey) Subject: Re: Fantasy Author Recommendations Date: 2 Apr 86 19:46:50 GMT I've just finished reading Diane Duane's Door Into Fire and Door Into SHadow. I was very favorably impressed. She introduces the Darthene/ARlene culture very well *without* interrupting the story. As we follow Herewiss' travels we learn gradually about the world he lives in rather than having to assimilate a whole mess of expository material once at the beginning. Duane is very imaginative in her treatment of elementals, price paid for use of sorcery, and so forth. Her theology plays a major role in her society and is well developed. The culture she presents seems much healthier sexually than our own. One other very nice point is that the two different books are told from two different points of view, so that we get to look at the same people from these two points of view. The only major problem I see in the work is that her characters seem to be getting awfully powerful. Since the work seems to be building to some world-shaking conlusion, perhaps that's all right... I am very surprised not to have heard this work mentioned before on this newsgroup. Have I been asleep? Does anybody know anything about Diane Duane and what else she may have written? Norman Ramsey norman@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_bdk@caip.rutgers.edu (Deborah Kravitz) Subject: Re: _Belgariad_ review (major spoilers) Date: 31 Mar 86 21:21:48 GMT > anich@puff.UUCP (Steve Anich) writes: > One thing that I think was good about the book is the > world/universe that Eddings constructed. I'm getting tired of > Tolkien clones. The world of the Belgariad was refreshingly > different. He even admits that s-e-x exists. I'd recommend it as > an enjoyable read, just don't expect too much. "Refreshingly different?!?" I read -and enjoyed- the Belgariad, but it was an almost exact copy of another five book series, the Prydain series by Lloyd Alexander (The Book of Three, The Black Cauldron, The Castle of Llyr, Taran Wanderer, and The High King), up to and including stubborn red-haired princess! If I were Lloyd Alexander, I would have filed for copyright infringement! Sonia Marx aka - ins_bsem@jhunix.UUCP ------------------------------ From: duke!ndd@caip.rutgers.edu (Ned Danieley) Subject: Re: Heinlein's latest (Spoiler) Date: 31 Mar 86 19:56:30 GMT anich@puff.UUCP (Steve Anich) writes: >> From: Judy Anderson >> The Cat Who Walks Through Walls was a REALLY great book... Up >> until about 1/2 way through, when it degenerated into the >> universe from The Number Of The Beast. ... > > I must agree. I found the ending quite chaotic and confusing. Did > anyone else who read the book get the impresion that the ending > actually was the killing off of Lazurus, Hazel, and the characters > from his other stories? I thought that Cat turned out better than NOtB; not quite as much interminable discussion. I think Heinlein is definitely trying to pull together his previous stories, and that the ending is a direct result of this. Given a device that can go back through time, how can you have a decent climax? I mean, we're talking serious deus ex machina here. It seems that Heinlein has got himself into a situation where any problem can be fixed, so how do you keep the reader's interest? At some point (s)he is bound to realize that any problem the characters get into is escapable, at least along some event sequence, so why sweat it? I'll be quite surprised if Heinlein goes any further with this, because I don't see any way to manufacture a different and still interesting plot. Ned Danieley duke!dukebar!ndd ------------------------------ From: teklabs!donch@caip.rutgers.edu (Don Chitwood) Subject: Re: alive computers Date: 2 Apr 86 23:53:09 GMT One very interesting novel that deals with intelligence and the creation thereof, is DESTINATION VOID by ??Frank Herbert??. There was a sequel to it, the name of which eludes me, which was a bit of a disappointment. Don Chitwood Tektronix, Inc. ------------------------------ From: infopro!rf@caip.rutgers.edu (Randolph Fritz) Subject: The giant flying telephone switchboard (on re-reading Lensman Subject: novels) Date: 29 Mar 86 00:35:23 GMT During the course of re-reading E. E. Smith's Lensman novels, something I haven't done in many years, I came on the following: Civilization is forming the Grand Fleet of a million ships. During the organization of the fleet there is a problem: Admiral Haynes cannot adequately direct such a large fleet. The solution? A large display tank and 200 four-armed telephone switchboard operators! Let's hear it for futuristic technology, folks! Randolph Fritz sun!sunrise!wu1!rf {ihnp4,decvax}!philabs!wu1!rf ------------------------------ From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Tolkien, Lord of the Rings Date: 1 Apr 86 02:04:47 GMT I had few problems with it when I read it at age 8 (on the other hand, remind me to tell you all how I shocked h*ll out of my kindergarten teacher one day...); on the other hand, as I matured, things which seemed simple grew more complex. The books have depths that I have yet to plumb in quite a few re-readings. I've seen all the nonsense about Gandalf as Jesus or Saruman as Hitler, etc.; foo. The ones who say that haven't read deeply enough yet. I didn't get deep enough to see those interpretations on the first reading; but I passed them long ago. I expect I'll still be seeing new stuff in it 20 years from now. Brandon decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 CIS 74106,1032 MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time) ------------------------------ From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Tolkien (was Re: FLAME to defend literature from Dumbbells) Date: 28 Mar 86 15:56:41 GMT showard@udenva.UUCP (Mr. Blore) writes: >Much as I hate to agree with (ick) Gary Gygax, I must opine that >The Lord of the Rings is about 50 pages of plot in >gods-know-how-many pages of description, with an all- egory so >obvious Tolkien had to deny it in the forward. It's overwritten, >overdecorated, and overrated. So there. I'm not going to debate you on a matter of taste; I like LOTR, you don't, and that's fine with me. ("But?" he said expectantly.) But I would like to know why you insist on an allegory which the author himself denies. If he had written it as such, why would he deny it? Granted, there are certain parallels, but they are incomplete, and rather than being put there deliberately I think they would have been pointless to try to avoid given the initial premise. Perhaps you should read that foreword again, if you can stomach it. I feel about this rather as I did about the theory, recently proposed in net.books, that THE WIZARD OF OZ was a "populist parable"--if you look hard enough for something, you'll probably find it. Ever read SUBLIMINAL SEDUCTION? While there were times when the fellow had a point, more often he said things were in pictures affecting me subconsciously that I couldn't even find when I consciously looked for them. pH ------------------------------ From: gsg!kathy@caip.rutgers.edu (Kathryn Smith) Subject: Re: alive computers Date: 31 Mar 86 15:30:10 GMT Another interesting set of books dealing with this subject is the Soul Rider series by Jack Chalker. This isn't obvious when starting the series, since for the first three books it looks like a fantasy series, but in book 4 (Birth of Flux and Anchor), which is actually first chronologically, but shouldn't be read that way, he finally explains how things really work. More than this would spoil the books for the first reading, so I won't go into exactly how things work, but I recommend them highly. Also, there is a novella by George R. R. Martin called Nightflyers which deals with a self-aware computer and its emotional problems. This has just been reissued in a trade paperback collection, of which it is the title story, however if you are a George Martin fan and have his earlier collections, be aware that most of it is reprints of A Song For Lya. Finally, there is a novella by Vernor Vinge called True Names which I recommend. The computers which figure in it aren't self-aware, but the way he postulates accessing of computers evolving is very interesting, as well as being a good read. Kathryn Smith ( ... decvax!gsg!kathy) General Systems Group, Inc Salem, NH ------------------------------ From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Favorite books Date: 1 Apr 86 01:43:07 GMT > All Time Favorite: DUNE. > Favorite author: I don't read by authors; they're too variable. (I liked Heinlein until he botched NOtB -- it's OK but not up to standards.) > Hardest to put down: LORD OF THE RINGS got me sitting down for hours when I wasn't usually able to sit down for 15 seconds (1/2 :-) -- is there such a thing as being ultrahyperkinetic?) > Best with computers: THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS. > Most interesting/unusual: (I may get hit for this!) THE ILLUMINATUS! TRILOGY > Best series: Top marks: the Childe Cycle. #2: DRAGONRIDERS OF PERN > Best written: What else? LORD OF THE RINGS, hands down. > Other books: THE FINAL REFLECTION for giving new life to a horse I'd thought had been beaten to death. Brandon decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 CIS 74106,1032 MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time) ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!markb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar) Subject: Re: Obtaining books Date: 31 Mar 86 18:36:59 GMT I have never had any problem ordering ANY book from a chain bookstore, as long as you can find it in "BOOKS IN PRINT". I have had problems getting a chain bookstore to let me use their copy of BIP, but most libraries have it. Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb ------------------------------ From: ihdev!pdg@caip.rutgers.edu (P. D. Guthrie) Subject: Re: SciFi TV shows; American vs. others Date: 28 Mar 86 19:14:03 GMT >The other program that thought was REALLY good was called the >_Tomorrow People_. As a series (I think about 2-3 years were >produced in England), it was really good! The premise behind this >one is that the tomorrow people are the next mutation after man, >and they have some pretty neat psychic powers, BUT they are unable >to harm or kill anyone with them (Evolution deals them ethics, >neat, eh?). Usual stories about mean Defense Dept. people (both >OUR and the RUSKIES)) that want to USE them ... The acting was >good, the set great (I mean really good; better than Dr. Who :) ). >I saw this on CBC about 10 years ago. Anyone else remember it? *YES* I really liked this show when it was being aired. Of course I was much younger then, but I remember it being a little simplistic, so I am not sure how I would like it now. I would enjoy seeing it again, though. Paul Guthrie ihnp4!ihdev!pdg ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: The Survivors (British TV show) Date: 31 Mar 86 16:43:17 GMT After I said that THE SURVIVORS was the best science fiction series I have every seen on TV, I have been asked to post a better description of the series. Here goes. Credit sequence: Under the credits we see a Chinese scientist accidentally dropping a vial which shatters. We see diplomats rushing about, passports being stamped, an airplane taking off. (Something nasty has apparently been released and is being inadvertantly carried to other parts of the world.) Episode one starts with England in the grips of a very bad flu epidemic. Offices are running with only about half of their usual staffing, trains are running very late. Schools are cancelling classes. Abby, our main character, is finding her husband very late getting home by train coming from the city. In the city we see that police forces are also undermanned as sick officers stay home and crime is going up. A young woman has a friend who is very ill with the sickness and goes to fetch a doctor, nearly getting raped by street gangs in the process. She finds out from the doctor that he only knows of one case of someone who has recovered from the flu. Most people are just bedridden and a few have even started dying from it. The doctor has no time to go and see her friend. Back out in the country Abby is feeling a bit sick herself and her husband suggests she goes to bed. She does and we see from the clock that time is passing. A lot of time. She has apparently gone into a coma. Eventually she wakes up and finds her husband dead. Further investigation shows that A LOT of people are dead. So many people have died from the sickness that no pair of people who knew each other before the disease are both still alive. Various groups of people start setting up communities and starting to rebuild. There are at least three groups that each call themselves the English army and start trying to secure grocery stores for themselves. People trying to get food from the groceries are branded looters and looting is a capital crime (at least to some of the groups that form). A group of main characters including the two women of the first episode and a man they have picked up along the way visit various of the societies, but eventually decide they must set up their own. The story follows the characters but it also examines what makes a society work or fail. (Curiously enough it is very much like DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS in this regard.) Issues examined are how much charity can a substitance society provide, what does the attitude to crime have to be, what sorts of government work and do not work, etc. The series was created by Terry Nation, who also created Dr. Who. I think THE SURVIVORS is the better of the two series, though. ------------------------------ From: duke!ndd@caip.rutgers.edu (Ned Danieley) Subject: Re: Typographical Errors Date: 31 Mar 86 20:02:54 GMT >From: clapper@NADC >Has anyone else out there noticed an increased proliferation of >typographical errors in paperbacks? I finally got around to >reading Chalker's _The Birth of Flux and Anchor_, and I was >appalled at the number of misspelled words, omitted words and >phrases, and duplicated lines. While I can usually figure out what >was supposed to be printed, I find an overabundance of typos to be >extremely disconcerting - even in a three dollar paperback. Don't >publishers know about electronic spelling checkers and such? Until recently, the main thing that I noticed was words that were spelled correctly, but that made no sense in context: exactly the kind of problem you would expect from electronic checkers. However, I just finished a book which had several mis-spellings that should have been easily caught. I mean, togeter instead of together? I suspect that proofreading is a lost art. Ned Danieley duke!dukebar!ndd ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Apr 86 0908-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #64 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 7 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 64 Today's Topics: Books - Brunner & Card & Decamp (4 msgs) & Heinlein & Henderson & Robinson & Tolkien & Zahn & Serializations & Colossus, Television - Blake's 7 & Doctor Who & Tripods, Miscellaneous - What is a Trilogy & Typos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: yetti!oz@caip.rutgers.edu (Ozan Yigit) Subject: the game of "fence" .. Date: 31 Mar 86 18:37:56 GMT John Brunner, in his book SHOCKWAVE RIDER, describes a game called FENCE, which appears to be a GO-like game. Did anyone actually construct this game, and tried playing it ?? Does this game actually exist (perhaps under a different name) ?? OZ Usenet: [decvax|allegra|linus|ihnp4]!utzoo!yetti!oz Bitnet: oz@[yusol|yuyetti] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 86 18:30:23 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: Ender's Game To: styx!mcb@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU >From: styx!mcb@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch) >ENDER'S GAME originally appeared as a novella (novelette?) in (I >believe) one of the monthly magazines. _Analog_, August 1977. Keith ------------------------------ Date: Fri 4 Apr 86 12:54:35-EST From: Wang Zeep Subject: (In)Compleat Enchanter Series DeCamp and Pratt wrote about 2 books worth of their "Incompleat Enchanter." series. Incomplete because the main character rarely knew what he was getting into. Several of them were collected into a book called "The Compleat Enchanter," but it is not complete! You'll have to check a good index of science fiction, but I believe there are two uncollected stories: "The Wall of Serpents" and another I can't place. The "Land of Unreason" is NOT a "Enchanter" story, but is worth reading. DeCamp and Pratt, both together and separately, did much to advance the state of "light" fantasy of the sort later written by Asprin. My opinion is that the collaboration between DeCamp and Pratt produced the best stories; alone, they tended to make mistakes. wz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Apr 86 12:34 PST From: Dave Platt Subject: L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt "phoenix" suggested that "Land of Unreason" is part of the Compleat Enchanter series. Not so; it's completely separate. Two additional short stories in the Enchanter universe were published together under the title "The Wall of Serpents" (this is also the title of one of the two short stories in its original form; I don't recall the name of the other one). ------------------------------ From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: Query for netlanders!? Date: 31 Mar 86 22:46:56 GMT A couple of quibbles. There are, I think, five stories in the Enchanter series by de Camp and Pratt. The first two were collected in a book called The Incomplete Enchanter. The first three were collected in a book mistitled The Complete Enchanter (it may have been The Compleat Enchanter, I don't remember). The last two were collected in a book called The Wall of Serpents. The Wall of Serpents is a little harder to find than The Complete Enchaner. Land of Unreason is also by de Camp and Pratt, but has nothing to do with the Enchanter stories. Regardless, all of the above are fun to read. david rickel ------------------------------ From: puff!anich@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Anich) Subject: Re: (In)Compleat Enchanter Series Date: 5 Apr 86 03:01:20 GMT The adventures of Harold Shea and his companions live on! There is a book called "Wall of Serpents" that includes two stories. I also think that there was a story titled "the Carnelian Cube" that was a Shea adventure. steve anich ------------------------------ From: petsd!cjh@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Henrich) Subject: Re: The giant flying telephone switchboard (on re-reading Subject: Lensman novels) Date: 2 Apr 86 17:08:05 GMT rf@infopro.UUCP (Randolph Fritz) writes: >During the course of re-reading E. E. Smith's Lensman novels, >something I haven't done in many years, I came on the following: >Civilization is forming the Grand Fleet of a million ships. During >the organization of the fleet there is a problem: Admiral Haynes >cannot adequately direct such a large fleet. The solution? A >large display tank and 200 four-armed telephone switchboard >operators! Let's hear it for futuristic technology, folks! How about _Starman_Jones_, written by R. A. Heinlein ca. 1956? The starships of this novel require much calculation while being navigated, and apparently most of it is done in a more-or-less manual way. Complete with looking up logarithms and the like in big books. The possession of books like these is confined to the Navigator's Guild. (If memory serves; it's been 30 years, after all.) The hero wins his membership in the guild by being a lightning calculator and having an eidetic memory. The poor schnook actually memorized those tables. Regards, Christopher J. Henrich UUCP: ...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh US Mail: MS 313; Concurrent Computer Corporation; 106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 Phone: (201) 758-7288 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Apr 86 12:27 PST From: Dave Platt Subject: Zenna Henderson's stories of The People I haven't seen any new stories about The People for several years; in fact I can't recall having seen any new Zenna Henderson stories at all for quite a while. There are a few short stories in The People sequence that are not in either "Pilgrimage" or "No Different Flesh"; if I recall correctly, most/all of these appear in "The Anything Box" along with a number of non-People stories. "The Anything Box" is in and out of print, but it's probably not too difficult to find; if your local store doesn't have it, try A Change of Hobbit in Santa Monica CA. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Apr 86 13:36:13 EST From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} Subject: Spider Robinson: a request for information All right, this is it: *someone* on this net must know this information. Does Spider Robinson ever go to sf conventions on the East Coast? For close to *10 years* I have been trying to meet this man, if only to finally meet someone as fanatic about Heinlein as I am. Now that I have the money to go to conventions, the only time I hear about his presence is at West Coast Cons. I am going slowly, insufferably insane with frustration... not that I would know what to say if I saw him... If you have any information that might help, please mail to me direct at one of the addresses below... In spite of it being on my home machine, I read sfl sporadically at best (time constraints, ya'know? Playing hack takes a *lot* of time...:-) thanks folks amqueue UUCP: ... !seismo!{topaz,caip}!quint ... !seismo!mit-borax!amqueue ARPA: quint@{red, green, blue, caip, topaz}.rutgers.edu amq@{aim.rutgers.edu, oz.ai.mit.edu} ------------------------------ Date: 04 Apr 86 20:40:55 PST (Fri) From: Alastair Milne Subject: Re: FLAME to defend literature from Dumbbells > Having not read Wolfe, I will only say this: Do you really want to > hold Tolkien up as the paragon of fantasy literature? YOU BET I DO! "A" paragon, at least, and possibly even, as you say, "the". If even 10% of all the books whose publishers insisted they were another "Lord of the Rings" even came to within 50% of LOTR's quality, we would have a wonderful collection indeed. Not even in C.S. Lewis or R.R. Eddings have I found Tolkien's like. Vance tries hard, and LeGuin is great, to name but two, but no fantasy I've ever read can match Tolkien. > Much as I hate to agree with (ick) Gary Gygax, I must opine that > The Lord of the Rings is about 50 pages of plot in > gods-know-how-many pages of description, with an allegory so > obvious Tolkien had to deny it in the forward. It's overwritten, > overdecorated, and overrated. (If you feel like this about LOTR, then do your utmost to avoid "Ghormenghast". Your last sentence in particular applies to "Ghormenghast" as it applies to no other book I've ever heard of.) Now for an opposite opinion: LOTR is one of the few stories I have ever read where I am unable to find any slack at all. In considering what a script editor would have to do to make it into a film of reasonable length (under 8 hours, let's say), a friend of mine and I have frequently tried to find parts that could be sacrificed without making the structure of the story come apart. We can't do it. Every time we think of some small event, apparently outside the main stream of events, it turns out that removing it leaves a hole in the story later on. Seeing Bakshi's choices for his "animated" version only reinforces our opinion. The story is excellently well coordinated. The denial of allegory which is in the versions published nowadays was placed there when Tolkien started receiving all sorts of notes telling him what the allegory was (it seems there were almost as many opinions as there were notes), which bothered him enough that he wrote the argument disproving it. It was hardly a case of the gentleman's protesting too much. If you find the "allegory" to be that obvious, perhaps you should say what you believe it is: I can't see any at all. I am not going to try an actual review of LOTR right here: I'd be at it for days. Suffice it to say that I know of no finer balancing of description, thought, and action. Tolkien's words bring the beauties and the horrors of Middle Earth to life, yet they all form part of the plot: the glories of Lothlorien, the strength of Minas Tirith, the horror of the Dagorlad and Mordor itself, and many, many more, bring the story into three dimensions, give it reason for being, and support its progress, rather than requiring it to stand aside for a time while they are elaborated. And the finer parts, like Gollum's insanity, Frodo's torment under the Ring, or Sam's unerring loyalty, all make major contributions. None of them is simply there as "another detail", omissible at will. There is much more to be said, of course, but lacking both the book at hand and several days with nothing else to do, I'd better leave it to somebody else to say. However, having seen at least one public vote against LOTR, I felt obliged to report a vote for it. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Fri 4 Apr 86 14:20:25-EST From: Laurence Brothers Subject: Cobra, really(!) After that last gaffe, I felt it incumbent on me to talk about the real Cobra. Well, it was better written, but still kinda dumb, certainly nothing to rave about. The whole premise is silly, that the computers cant be turned off, that the vets cant be "humanized". Of course, the whole thing is supposed to refer to the problems that Vietnam vets had (have) in returning to civilian status, only these Cobras are unable physically, not only mentally, to return to normal lives. The main problem is that these Cobras (the good guys) are just so well adjusted that the whole "demilling" (phrase from Karl someone or another who wrote War Games and Dream Games) process is unnecessary anyway, and the book is just good guys vs. bad guys with a minimum of philosophizing on morality, all extremely simplistic, on an even lower level than Piers Anthony, which is pretty low. I read the cover blurb to Cobra Strike, and it sounded so bad I didn't bother to look inside. Oh well, but I do apologize again for the title error of the last review. Laurence ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!preece@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: question about serialization cuts Date: 2 Apr 86 20:17:00 GMT I'm curious how much abridgement is done in transforming a book into a serialization for one of the SF magazines. I rarely have the energy to read something as a book when I've recently read it as a serial; are any of you sufficiently diligent to have noticed? I bring this up because last weekend I read The Coming of the Quantum Cats and Count Zero in their recent serializations. Count Zero, in particular, left me wondering whether some material was missing -- there were things that didn't seem to connect to other things in the way their introduction seemed to imply they would. Needless to say, every magazine is probably different, but I'd be interested in what any of you know. scott preece gould/csd - urbana uucp: ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!preece arpa: preece@gswd-vms ------------------------------ Date: 5 Apr 86 20:09:47 EST From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: COLOSSUS Colossus: The Forbin Project is indeed the first book in the Colossus trilogy. The books are worth reading but a bit hard to find. Steve Pearl ------------------------------ From: k@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) Subject: British SF TV Date: 4 Apr 86 03:02:58 GMT > ... Various references to the plot of THE SURVIVORS ... >The series was created by Terry Nation, who also created Dr. Who. >I think THE SURVIVORS is the better of the two series, though. You can also include BLAKE'S 7 under Terry Nation's credit. Another excellent SF series from the BBC. Sigh! Why does England produce such _quality_ SF, and the US such god-awful garbage? Kathy (Mail to k@mit-eddie.UUCP or kay@MIT-XX.ARPA) ------------------------------ From: acf4!percus@caip.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus) Subject: Re: British SF TV Date: 4 Apr 86 15:59:00 GMT > The series was created by Terry Nation, who also created Dr. Who. Correction. Terry Nation created the first monsters in Dr. Who, but he did not create the show itself. (I think Verity Lambert and Mervyn Pinfield created the show). A. G. Percus (ARPA) percus@acf4 (NYU) percus.acf4 (UUCP) ...{allegra!ihnp4!seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus ------------------------------ Date: 5 Apr 1986 13:38 EST (Sat) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" To: Eyal mozes Subject: The Tripods TV series If its the same one that the BBC made, its a pretty reasonably adaption of the books. I've only seen the first 13 episodes however (first book), so it may go downhill from there. ------------------------------ From: oliveb!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barb Jernigan) Subject: Re: Favorite SF Books Date: 2 Apr 86 03:08:26 GMT Joel ({allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster) brings up a good point. One could cop out and say a trilogy is a series that stops at three, but I, personally, tend to echo Joel's own feelings on the matter. A trilogy is a single overbiding tale, broken into three parts (like LOTR, Riddle Master, Deryni and Camber). A series would be books in the same world, perhaps with the same characters, but each book would pretty much stand alone (like the >gag me after two< Xanth books). At least thats how it seems to me. What editors say is another matter entirely >grin!< Barb ------------------------------ From: cpf@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Courtenay Footman) Subject: Re: Typographical Errors Date: 3 Apr 86 20:58:51 GMT I have just read Jo Clayton's latest book, Drinker of Souls, which is published by DAW. It is excellent, but the typography is a disaster. 'Thought' for 'though' is a typographical error that brought my reading to a complete stop while I worked out what was meant, and there are many other, equally bad errors. Courtenay Footman Lab. of Nuclear Studies Cornell University ARPA: cpf@lnsvax.tn.cornell.edu Usenet: {decvax,ihnp4,vax135}!cornell!lnsvax!cpf Bitnet: cpf%lnsvax.tn.cornell.edu@WISCVM.BITNET ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Apr 86 0931-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #65 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 7 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 65 Today's Topics: Books - Asprin & DeCamp & Gerrold & Niven & Tolkien & Zahn & Alive Computers (3 msgs) & Serializations, Films - Highlander, Television - Science Fiction Theatre, Miscellaneous - Baycon Art Show ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: khill@ti-csl Subject: Re: comments on Thieve's World, Edited by RL Asprin, et al Date: 2 Apr 86 00:12:00 GMT There are actually 6 (at my last count) collections of stories now out about TW. These are available from the SF Book Club as two hardback volumes, and some paperbacks are still around, at least of the more recent volumes. Also, Lynn(?) Abbey, a co-editor for some of the volumes, has, I believe, written 1 or more novels, etc. The story lines in the more recent volumes can be a little difficult to follow since they reference people/places/etc that are described and introduced in earlier works. I believe that all the stories for each volume were written at the same time, with only minor discussions between the authors. This results in an interesting line of character development, because some characters constantly pop up in the stories, and their actions are not always fully consistant. Also, events caused by ine author have a bearing on what authors of the later stories can do. Recomended. Ken Hill USENET : {convex!smu,texsun,ut-sally}!ti-csl!khill CSNET : khill@TI-CSL ------------------------------ From: kalash@ingres.berkeley.edu.ARPA (Joe Kalash) Subject: Re: (In)Compleat Enchanter Series Date: 5 Apr 86 08:35:13 GMT G.ZEEP%DEEP-THOUGHT@EDDIE.MIT.EDU writes: >... You'll have to check a good index of science fiction, but I >believe there are two uncollected stories: "The Wall of Serpents" >and another I can't place. There are four stories in the series, "The Roaring Trumpet", "The Mathmatics of Magic", "The Castle of Iron", and "The Wall of Serpents". The first three were collected in "The Complete Enchanter". "The Wall of Serpents" was issued in paperback by DELL in 1979. I supposed I could do a full bibliography of all four stories, but does anyone REALLY care? > My opinion is that the collaboration between DeCamp and Pratt >produced the best stories; alone, they tended to make mistakes. While I have a great fondness for DeCamp, I have never liked any of Pratt's solo work. Very dull stuff. Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ Date: 5 Apr 86 20:15:48 EST From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: CHTORR The Chtorr series will be for either 5 or 7 books. (I can't remember which) The 3rd book should be out this summer. David Gerrold has moved publishers over to Bantam/Spectra due to differences with his previous publisher (Pocket). The first 2 books will be reprinted by Bantam and will contain **new** material. This information was provided by David Gerrold when he spoke to the SF community here at Rutgers. (To all you Starlog readers: yes, he finally spoke here!) The story 'Shaggy Dog' which he read to us at his speech appears in the current issue of Twilight Zone magazine. Steve Pearl ------------------------------ Date: Sun 6 Apr 86 23:19:40-EST From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #62 >>"Peersa" from "A World Out of Time" by Larry Niven. > I wouldn't call this an intelligent computer -- Peersa was a human > mind copied onto a computer, apparently one that could emulate a > human mind. Does this qualify as a self-aware computer? I > wouldn't think so. I'm interested in replies though. I would call it an intelligent, self-aware computer; I don't care *how* it was programmed. Copying a human mind onto a computer is a nontrivial transformation (-: at least, it took me more than six months the last time I did it :-), and is surely just as much a way of programming the thing as having eleven million starving CS grad students hacking away for five years. If the computer were a human brain (the State had brain-scrubbing technology, and RNA transfer; they could reprogram human minds) then I might stop calling it a computer. But I'd be amazed if they could chop Peersa-the-human up and teleport his RNA to the ramship. They would have if they could, knowing the State and states in general. Bard ------------------------------ From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: J.R.R Tolkien and literature Date: 5 Apr 86 11:19:59 GMT milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes: >If even 10% of all the books whose publishers insisted they were >another "Lord of the Rings" even came to within 50% of LOTR's >quality, we would have a wonderful collection indeed. Not even in >C.S. Lewis or R.R. Eddings have I found Tolkien's like. Vance >tries hard, and LeGuin is great, to name but two, but no fantasy >I've ever read can match Tolkien. The "Lord of the Rings" is a remarkable achievement; it stands there towering over twentieth century epic fantasy like one of Tolkien's own great mountains. But it is not perfect in every respect, nor even too easy to compare to works which are not in quite the same genre. E.R.Eddison's "The Worm Ourobouros" is the closest thing I know to Tolkien. As a story and on the whole I would say it is not as good. But the language is much more interesting, gorgeous and exotic prose. Tolkien can decorate his work with clever, facile versification, but in spite of being a linguist he is not a master of language. His good friend C.S. Lewis also has a better writing style just as a style. But Tolkien is never worried about reaching for effect with his language. It is interesting to compare this to Wolfe, who sweats and strains over the pages of "New Sun", and does not always succeed. As far as saying *nothing* can compare to Tolkien, read Milton. "Paradise Lost" has stunning language and an epic, fantastic plot. Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: Cobra, really(!) Date: 5 Apr 86 08:02:24 GMT BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU writes: >not only mentally, to return to normal lives. The main problem is >that these Cobras (the good guys) are just so well adjusted that >the whole "demilling" (phrase from Karl someone or another who >wrote War Games and Dream Games) process is unnecessary anyway, and >the book is just good guys vs. bad guys with a minimum of >philosophizing on morality, all extremely simplistic, on an even >lower level than Piers Anthony, which is pretty low. Correction: there are "good guy" Cobras, "bad guy" Cobras, and even in between Cobras; and the same for non-Cobras. It is about as simplistic as the average sf book -- i.e., very. What else is new? Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ From: cbosgd!rtm@caip.rutgers.edu (Randy Murray) Subject: Re: alive computers Date: 4 Apr 86 21:04:11 GMT David Brin's _The Postman_ gives a sad tale of an intelligent computer. I recommend this one, but the paperback may be a ways off yet. Randy Murray cbosgd!rtm ------------------------------ From: netexa!elw@caip.rutgers.edu (E. L. Wiles) Subject: Re: alive computers (The Two Faces of Tommorow) Date: 4 Apr 86 22:39:02 GMT I don't beleive it! Everyone seems to have missed "The Two Faces of Tommorow", I think by J. P. Hogan. That is most definitely a story about an evolving alive computer! Starting from hardware and ending up .... (read it! :-)) I realy enjoyed the story since the evolution was supported logically at all points ( or so it seemed to me. ) ------------------------------ From: M.A. Murphy Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1986 14:59 EST Subject: Re: Alive Computers >From: sally!dml@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis) >lynx@qantel.UUCP (D.N. Lynx Crowe@ex2207) writes: >>Computer stories that would seem to relate to your request include: >> >>"Colossus: The Forbin Project", (can't remember author) >> Another renegade defense system. >> This was also done as a motion picture. > >I remember a trilogy that consisted of Colossus, [second book], >Colossus and the Crab. Is this the same one? The books contained in the trilogy mentioned above are - Jones, D.F. Collossus Berkeley 1966 Jones, D.F. Fall of Collossus, The Berkeley 1974 Jones, D.F. Collossus and the Crab Berkeley 1977 My copies are Berkeley paperbacks and contain the above dates as copyright information. It's been a while since I've read these, but I recall that the first book stood quite well on its own. All three of the books were quite enjoyable. I don't know when the other two were written, but it would appear that they were written after the first book had been out for quite some time. As I recall, the movie (possibly Made-for-TV) was done using the first book as its basis. I think the movie was titled either just 'The Forbin Project' or 'Colossus: The Forbin Project', but I'm not sure. My memory is hazy, and I never saw the movie. When I read the Colossus books I was on a 'live computer' kick and read anything I could find directly involving computers as a 'main' character. Among these were - Gerrold, David When Harlie Was One Doubleday 1972 Ryan, Thomas J. Adolescence of P-1, The Heinlein, Robert Anson Moon is a Harsh Mistress, The Berkeley 1966 Harlie and P-1 are very similar stories to Colossus. As far as I am concerned, TMIAHM is in a class by itself. It is undoubtedly one of the best books I have ever read. ------------------------------ From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer) Subject: *SPOILER* Quantum Cats (Jan-Apr Analog) (was: question about Subject: serialization cuts) Date: 5 Apr 86 22:13:58 GMT ccvaxa!preece (Scott Preece) writes: >I'm curious how much abridgement is done in transforming a book >into a serialization for one of the SF magazines. I rarely have >the energy to read something as a book when I've recently read it >as a serial.... Interesting question. Why don't you write to the editor and ask? >I bring this up because last weekend I read The Coming of the >Quantum Cats and Count Zero in their recent serializations. Count >Zero, in particular, left me wondering whether some material was >missing -- there were things that didn't seem to connect to other >things in the way their introduction seemed to imply they would. I noticed that the serialized _Quantum Cats_ contained more information in the synopsis than was available to the reader at that point in the story. For example, in the part 1 synopsis (Feb Analog, p. 132) reveals that Epsilon's "President Reagan" was Nancy, and Ronnie is the First Gentleman; I'm pretty sure that wasn't revealed until part 2 (p. 146). Also, the entire part 2 synopsis (Mar, pp. 126-127) is told from the viewpoint of Alpha's Dr. Desota, whose only appearance in the story at that point had been the warning to Epsilon! (In fact, the Greek letter naming system hadn't been mentioned yet.) It makes me wonder whether the synopsis is provided by the author or the editor. They never did say what was going on in Daleylab. (I'd half expected even Tau to be working on paratime travel.) Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh), The Walking Lint ------------------------------ From: tellab1!thoth@caip.rutgers.edu (Marcus Hall) Subject: Re: Highlander Date: 3 Apr 86 15:37:38 GMT srt@ucla-cs.UUCP writes: >Another nice feature is the fine camera work. Perhaps "over-work" >as others have suggested, though I didn't mind. .... Jim McGrath writes: >.... I especially liked the camera work. Most action scenes in >most movies involve a stationary camera(s) with the actors doing >all the moving. This film makes use (perhaps overuse) of the >camera's mobility from scene 1. The result is more engrossing >action sequences (even though S&S action is pretty dull for me, >since I have been exposed to it once too often). When I saw the opening scene, I had a feeling that they were using SKYCAM. Sure enough, SKYCAM was credited at the end. SKYCAM is a gyro-stabilized camera platform that is supported by cables hooked to winches at 4 support points. By controlling the length of the support cables, the platform is able to fly over a very large area. The original intent was to get dramatic shots of sporting events by flying around a football stadium. I hadn't seen anything made with the system before, I believe that they were concerned with the ball (or whatever in various sports) hitting the camera or support cables and so it hasn't been used that often. Anyhow, there was an article about the control computer for SKYCAM in BYTE about 5-6 months ago which is the first I had heard of it. Does anyone know if SKYCAM has been used in other movies before? It has a lot more flexibility than other camera mounts and certainly seems to return impressive results. marcus hall ..!ihnp4!tellab1!thoth p.s. I don't remember for sure, but I think that SKYCAM was developed by the same guy who developed stedi-cam. I can't remember his name either. ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Science Fiction Theatre? (help) Date: 4 Apr 86 23:48:54 GMT >I recently saw this television show mentioned in another article >and it sparked a memory that I hope some of you can round out for >me. I remember a show in the very early 1960's in which a >gentleman would explain some scientific theory or phenomenon for a >couple of minutes. What would follow would be a science fiction >drama based on the previous description. Does anybody else >remember such a program? Definitely! >Was it _Science Fiction Theatre_? Yup! >Who was the host? The incomperable Truman Bradley. >Is it being re-broadcast anywhere? Not on a regular basis. This was a syndicated series first run in 1956 and later syndicated for the next 10 years or so. It was the first TV series that had science fiction stories as opposed to a continuing hero in a science fiction setting (to the best of my recollection). The stories were not great by today's standards, generally they were a concept and nothing more. In those days that was pretty good. In fact if we like science fiction on TV, we owe the series a debt of gratitude. Typical story, an astronomer meets a stranger and shows him something of the work he does. They build up a friendship. When the stranger disappears he leaves the astronomer a photographic plate of a picture of the solar system, taken from outside. The film TARANTULA was based on the episode "No Food For Thought." Actors like Arthur Franz and Richard Carlson showed up and became associated with science fiction. Later appearing in a number of science fiction films. Occasionally episodes are dredged up and shown on TV in retrospectives. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Apr 86 17:12:48 pst From: sonia@aids-unix (Sonia Orin Lyris) Subject: BayCon art show contact? I'm looking for a contact for the BayCon art show (May 23 - 26). Does anyone know who I might contact, or are any of you contact persons for the art show? I have the BayCon address, but I am looking for a phone number or net address. Thanks for any and all information. Sonia Lyris arpa: sonia@aids-unix ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Apr 86 0827-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #66 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 9 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 66 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Berger & Brunner & Card & Duane & Henderson & Herbert & Tolkien & Zahn & Author Request Answered & SF Poll, Television - Obtaining Copies of Shows, Miscellaneous - Alive Computers & What is a Series ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hope!corwin@caip.rutgers.edu (John Kempf) Subject: Re: _Anthonology_ Date: 4 Apr 86 19:35:28 GMT > From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU > BTW, for those of you who haven't read his work, he's an F-SF > author. If you want to read his stuff, start off with the Adept > series (Split Infinity, Blue Adept, and Juxtaposition), then (if > you have the stomach for HORRENDOUS puns) the Xanth series (A > Spell for Chameleon, The Source of Magic, Castle Roogna, Centaur > Aisle, Ogre Ogre, Night Mare, Dragon on a Pedestal, Crewel Lye, > Golem in the Gears -- as he explains in his Authors' Notes, he has > a tendency to cram more than three novels into his trilogies). Just a comment on Anthony's works: his cluster series (what little that I have read of it) and his tarot series (hard to find at times) are much better than either the Apprentice Adept Trilogy or the Xanth series. One of his better works is On A Pale Horse. I don't know about the rest of the series, as we have not finished it yet (me reading, Anthony writing). cory ------------------------------ Date: 7 Apr 86 13:19:38 EST From: KERN@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: REGIMENT OF WOMEN Cc: mtgzy!ecl@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU [This is in response to Evelyn C. Leeper's review of Thomas Berger's REGIMENT OF WOMEN, in SFL v11 i60:] Hey, wait a minute! REGIMENT OF WOMEN was not a hard science fiction book, it was allegorical literary fiction. Hard SF requires plausibility, but subjecting allegories to the same tests is ludicrous. (Try the the same sort of analysis with GULLIVER'S TRAVELS, for example). I'll concede that there were a number of vile scenes in REGIMENT OF WOMEN, but it also had some wonderfully imaginative scenes, and some that caused me to ask myself why they were so embarrassing. (Embarrassment is very educational). It seems to me that the book is a mostly successful experiment in mind-blowing, and one of Berger's best works. I'm sorry that you didn't like it. k b kern ------------------------------ From: proper!carl@caip.rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg) Subject: Re: the game of "fence" .. Date: 5 Apr 86 21:46:12 GMT oz@yetti.UUCP (Ozan Yigit) writes: >John Brunner, in his book SHOCKWAVE RIDER, describes a game called >FENCE, which appears to be a GO-like game. Did anyone actually >construct this game, and tried playing it ?? It's "fencing", and it looks rather interesting to me. Would anyone be interested in trying to conjure it up and play it over the USENET or something? I could probably devise a board for it on the MacIntosh, but someone REALLY would need to have geometry down pretty well for that. Matter of fact, I should introduce it to my Geometry class... give them all pains in the neck... >Does this game actually exist (perhaps under a different name) ?? Not that I know of. Anyone else know anything? Carl Greenberg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1986 13:31 O From: Henry Nussbacher Subject: Card and Ender's Game Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card originally appeared in Analog - August 1977. Incidentally, that novelette was his first published work ever!!! Hank Weizmann Institute of Science Rehovot, Israel ------------------------------ From: kalash@ingres.berkeley.edu.ARPA (Joe Kalash) Subject: Re: Fantasy Author Recommendations Date: 6 Apr 86 07:29:22 GMT norman@batcomputer.UUCP (Norman Ramsey) writes: >I am very surprised not to have heard this work mentioned before on >this newsgroup. Have I been asleep? Does anybody know anything >about Diane Duane and what else she may have written? I guess you have been asleep. While she has not been extensively covered, Duane has come up every now and then. She is (in my opinion) one of the best up and coming authors that we have. I look forward to each and every new book. All of her books come recommended. Here (to the best of my knowledge) is a list of her books: The Door into Fire [available from Bluejay] The Door into Shadow [Bluejay] So You Want to be a Wizard [Delacorte] (Young Adult Novel) Deep Wizardry [Delacorte] (Young Adult Novel) The Wounded Sky [Pocket Books] (Star Trek Novel) My Enemy My Ally [Pocket Books] (Star Trek Novel) She has also done three Star Trek comics (DC series), two Thieves World short stories, and a couple of other short stories I don't remember. Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 7 Apr 1986 11:47:05-PST From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (MARY MAROTTA) Subject: Zenna Henderson, author of The People Sorry to hear about the demise of this author, whose innovative books about The People are on my shelf of "best-loved" SF of all time. I was introduced to The People in a television movie made from one of the novels. Does anyone remember this movie? I wish it could be televised once more -- I'd love to tape it! Also, is there a list of Henderson's novels and stories available? ------------------------------ From: watlion!rbamodeo@caip.rutgers.edu (Roy Blaise Amodeo IV) Subject: Re: alive computers Date: 5 Apr 86 21:57:20 GMT donch@teklabs.UUCP (Don Chitwood) writes: >One very interesting novel that deals with intelligence and the >creation thereof, is DESTINATION VOID by ??Frank Herbert??. > >There was a sequel to it, the name of which eludes me, which was a >bit of a disappointment. The sequel is JESUS INCIDENT. The sequel to the sequel is THE LAZARUS EFFECT. They seem to have been written in decreasing order of quality. The sequels both were co-written by a poet named Bill Ransom. ( I still liked them both. JESUS INCIDENT had some neat ideas about religion, but THE LAZARUS EFFECT was just basically an adventure story. Allow me to plug my other favourite Herbert book here. I would highly recommend WHIPPING STAR. It is an interesting study of communication with a totally alien race. It's fun to watch the Caleban try to express itself in English. It used the best words it could to try to communicate concepts that English had no words for. Anyway, I loved it. Roy ------------------------------ From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: LOTR Date: 6 Apr 86 11:19:43 GMT oyster@uwmacc.UUCP (Vicarious Oyster) writes: >courtesy to at least those authors who are still living? Also, >were there tons of unapproved copies of the book floating around at >some point? By the time I discovered LOTR (ca. 1973), I only saw >the Ballantine edition(s). I think it referred to the Ace paperback edition. By the way, any other old time LOTR hands out there, who remember when LOTR was a book you knew about but no one else seemed to have heard of? Those were the days. Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 86 16:27:37 PST From: Linda Wald Subject: Timothy Zahn In reply to comments about Zahn, my opinion : I think he shows a lot of promise IF he stays away from the superwarrior genre. I enjoyed A COMING OF AGE and SPINNERET , both rather original and nicely done. Unfortunately, both are still only in hardback (from Bluejay), but SPINNERET was serialized in Analog last year. A collection of stories is coming out 'soon'; the title story "Cascade Point" won last years novella Hugo (deservedly). Any of these three are well worth reading. I read COBRA, and I doubt that I will read COBRA STRIKE. Enough said. Linda Wald math.linda@ucla-locus.arpa ------------------------------ From: cbmvax.cbm!andy@caip.rutgers.edu (Andy Finkel) Subject: Re: alive computers Date: 7 Apr 86 17:38:12 GMT corwin@hope.UUCP writes: >two that I enjoyed: > The Genisis Machine -hogan > The Peace War (Serialized in Analog, I don't remember by who) I believe The Peace War was by Vernor Vinge. andy finkel Commodore(Amiga) {ihnp4, allegra, seismo}!cbmvax!andy ------------------------------ Date: 0 0 00:00:00 EDT From: "Bob Mende [NB]" Subject: Poll Hello, In responce to the all time best book/author/... poll, I submit my vote. I want to make the fact known that I will try to include cycle type books (LOTR and such) with Series. Please, I think this is the best way to handle these books. If I make more than one choice for each choice, it just means that I think all mentioned deserve recognition. Oh yea, I will add a few categories of my own. I think that a few other books need mentioning. I do not include many of the old group of SF authors, this is due to the fact that I have grown up reading many of these younger authors. All Time Favorite Book: Mote in God's Eye - Larry Niven Crystal Singer - Anne McCafferity Favorite Author: Orson Scott Card Jack Chalker JRR Tolkien Rodger Zelazny (sp) Hardest Book/series to put Down: _Battlefield_Earth_ - L. Ron Hubbard Amber Series - Rodger Zelazny Most intresting/Unusual: Chamipon Eternal Series - Michael Moorcock This Includes (Elric,Hawkmoon,Ericose,Corum,Jerry Corneilus,...) Cities In Flight - James Blish Best Series/cycle: Lord of the Rings - JRR Tolkien Amber Series - Rodger Zelazny Best Written: Lord Of the Rings - JRR Tolkien Book of the New Sun - Gene Wolf Most Fun to read: Myth Books - Robert Asprin Hitchhikers Guide Triliogy - Douglas Adams (First Three Books Only) Best Short Story: Enders Game - Orson Scott Card Unaccomipaned Sonata - Orson Scott Card Bob Mende Snail: BPO 20187 ARPA : MENDE@AIM.RUTGERS.EDU Piscataway NJ UUCP : topaz!aim!mende 08854 Phone: (201) 878-0602 CMS : rutgers!mende ------------------------------ From: ur-tut!jdia@caip.rutgers.edu (Wowbagger) Subject: _Space_1999_ and _U_F_O_; Where can I find them? Date: 6 Apr 86 01:42:53 GMT Howdy folks! I've been trying to find VHS video tapes of Space 1999 and UFO, two long ago discontinued Sci-Fi tv series. Space 1999 was distributed by ITC I believe. UFO is much older than Space 1999 (circa 1970-72 ??). I'm pretty sure that it was British, but not completely. If you know anything about these shows, or about how and where I might find some recordings of them, please contact me via email. Your thanks in advance... Josh Diamond Address: ...!seismo!rochester!ur-tut!jdia ------------------------------ From: bucsb!madd@caip.rutgers.edu (madd (Madd(ly) lost in the From: Net....)) Subject: Re: Re: alive computers (optimistic?) Date: 6 Apr 86 20:46:22 GMT ericksen@unc.UUCP (Jim Ericksen) writes: >I just finished reading an intriguing vision of an "alive" computer >program. The book is _Michaelmas_ , written in 1976 by Algis >Budrys. By the year 1999 (a bit optimistic, i think) all computers >in the world are essentially one single information net. How optimistic IS this? I have only been computing for a few years, but the information available over the networks has grown enormously. OK, they are not a single source yet, but recall that businesses around 1900 tended to be self-owned. Today, roughly 80 years later, you are hard- pressed to find ANY reasonably large company that is not owned, in part or in whole, by yet another company (good examples -- General Mills, Beatrice). No flames on the accuracy of this claim, please, it is merely to illustrate a point. The evolution of business into a few companies took around a century (in the US, anyway). How fast are networks evolving? I can give you a clue. When I started networking, 5 years ago, I had to specially order a modem because no one in my area (admittedly, rural) had any in stock. Now I can get one at any K-Mart, so long as they sell the computer that I want it for. Nearly all home users (gamers excluded) seem to have a modem that they use for something. With this kind of support, 13 years before 1999 and just 5 after the year I bought my modem, it does not seem at all optimistic to think that there may be one network of information, since all these users want information. The more standardized, the better. This network, should it develop, will obviously be spread on many machines. A good example of this is this network itself. It seems to be quite large from my viewpoint. While not everyone can access it, how long will it be before someone at CompuServe or some similar institute says "Hey -- if we set up a machine to access this, there could be money here." Then anyone could get at it. As more people get at it, its popularity will rise exponentially (one friend tells two, who tell two, etc.) The point of all this is that computer environments are changing so fast that NOTHING is overly optimistic. I do mean nothing -- AI people say it'll be awhile before they have something, but it could be stumbled upon mistakenly by anyone. Myself, I feel the AI question is not one of software but hardware. They seem to be trying to emulate a human brain, but doing so in a two-dimensional memory matrix. I do not admit to understanding how memory in humans works, but I feel confident that it is NOT two-dimensional. A single discovery (for example, a chip that works in base 3 instead of 2, which would allow EASY memory- mapping in three dimensions) may so revolutionize the industry that you can be off by years in your predictions, merely because you have no way of knowing that a discovery may be made. Apologies for taking off on tangents here, I tend to do that. I just tend to believe people underestimate the ability of the human race to be extremely lucky, stumbling upon things instead of developing them rationally (easy to cite cases of this, but you get the idea). If in 1999 they don't have a single information net, those of you who remember this can mail me stuff and I'll gladly eat every scrap of the printouts. Anxiously awaiting replies.... Jim Frost ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd cscc71c%bostonu.bitnet@wiscvm USnail: 75 Washington St Laconia, NH 03246 ------------------------------ Date: 7 Apr 1986 13:13:08-EST (Monday) From: ALBERGA@YKTVMX Subject: Series, etc. I have been mulling over the question of what is a story, a series, etc. for some time now, and am including my current ideas for comment. Note that I have added a "new" grouping, the cycle. This is lifted from early literature such as the Arthurian cycle. Cyril N. Alberga SERIES: A collection of quasi-independent stories, similar to a cycle, but more tightly knit, yet less interdependent that the parts of a story. Assignment of groups of stories to one or the other of these categories will be mostly a personal judgment. I would include Anthony's Xanth stories here, while I would class Edding's Belgariad as a single story. CYCLE: A collection of independent stories sharing both a cast and a setting, e.g. Cherryh's Alliance/Union stories. A cycle need not be attributed to a single author, e.g. the "Thieves' World" stories. CONNECTED-CYCLES: A collection of cycles which form a "super"-cycle, e.g. Anderson's version of a future history, including the Flandry cycle, the Van Rijn cycle, etc. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Apr 86 0851-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #67 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 9 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 67 Today's Topics: Books - Brooks & Dann & Duane & Tolkien & Anachronisms (2 msgs) & Fantasy Recommendatios & Alive Computers (2 msgs) Films - Skycam, Miscellaneous - Information Request & Computers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: puff!anich@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Anich) Subject: New terry Brooks book Date: 7 Apr 86 23:44:35 GMT Has anyone read the new Terry Brooks(author of **Shanara**) book? If you have let me know what you think of it. steve anich ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 86 03:03:01 MST From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley) Subject: THE MAN WHO MELTED by Jack Dann THE MAN WHO MELTED came out in paperback recently; this novel got some very good reviews by some respectable people, but I hesitated to read it, and now I know why... Ray Mantle is a free-lance illustrator with severe psychological problems. His sister Josiane, a beautiful woman with severe psychological problems, has fallen prey to a psychic disease called Screaming, which causes vast numbers of people to behave like rabid animals and sparks riots which have at times drawn civilization to the verge of collapse. Josiane has disappeared into the mobs and now Raymond is obsessed with finding her, even if it means recovering only a drooling monster. Raymond's old friend Pfeiffer, a balding man with severe psychological problems, has come to join Raymond in France; he seems to have a secret he wants to tell but he can't bring himself to reveal it. Raymond's English girlfriend Joan, a beautiful woman with severe psychological problems, is a member of the Church of the Christian Criers, a group which worships Screaming as a transcendental experience, and she joins Raymond and Pfeiffer in a neurotic triangle as they search for Josiane and the meaning of the Scream. I suppose this will make me sound insensitive... Have you ever been trapped in a social situation where you've been forced to listen to an acquaintance describe in excruciating detail each and every neurosis which has ever afflicted them (plus capsule evaluations of all their analysts and sundry other features)? I always wish I could say, 'Sorry, gotta go home and give my cat a bath,' and disappear, although I usually just suffer. I felt this way about the characters in this book. I didn't want to know them and I still don't. Apart from the characterizations... There are some scenes that do work in the novel -- one is a scene from a gambling game, reminiscent of strip poker, which requires losers to forfeit organs of their body -- but my overall feeling is that everything was overdone; too much flash, not enough style, and not the smallest trace of charm. Perhaps you'll feel differently, but be warned. Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 86 10:25 PST From: Dave Platt Subject: Diane Duane Well, Diane Duane's "Tales of the Five" novels (Door into Fire, and Door into Shadow) have been discussed here... most recently about a year ago, I believe, after Shadow came out. They've gotten generally quite favorable reviews. I personally consider "Door into Fire" my favorite "first novel"; it showed extreme promise for a first work, and I feel it's held up very well indeed. It's one of the very best-crafted fantasy stories I've encountered, and I'm sitting around impatiently for the release of the third novel in the series (I have a faint suspicion that it'll be told from Freelorn's point of view... or maybe Sunspark's?) As far as the characters becoming extremely powerful... true, but from Herewiss's comments at the end of Fire, and what occurred in Shadow, it looks as if Duane is doing a credible job of balancing their increasing power with an increasing sense of identity, as well as with new vulnerabilities and new limitations. Time will tell... A funny short summary of what Diane Duane is like can be found in the "Overture" to the first edition of Door into Fire (unfortunately, it didn't make it into the Bluejay reissues). It was written by David Gerrold (of "Tribbles" fame/infamy), and describes his meeting and subsequent relationship with Duane (he admits to being extremely biased where she's concerned). According to Gerrold, Duane rides horses, is a falconer [one ended up in the spaghetti, apparently!], an excellent cartographer, a "very cunning linguist", a martial artist, and a truly terrible cook (could scare away the mountain lions!). If you can locate a used copy of the first printing of Door into Fire (dated '77, I believe) it's worth it just for the Overture (and it's also interesting to compare the '77 novel with the modestly-revised version published by Bluejay). Duane's credits to date include (but are almost certainly not limited to): the two Door novels; two Star Trek novels (The Wounded Sky, which I happen to be rereading this week, and My Enemy, My Ally [*highly* recommended!]), two hard-to-locate (hardback-only?) novels involving youthful wizards (So You Want to be a Wizard?, and Deep Wizardry), several years' work on animated cartoons, and probably other stuff as well that I haven't encountered. ------------------------------ From: Michael O'Brien Subject: Allegory and JRRT Date: Tue, 08 Apr 86 11:06:10 PST I'm not a professor of English so I refuse to give any references. However, I'd like to point out some background regarding "accusations" of allegory in JRRT. As most folks are aware by now, Tolkien was a member of a literary group at his university called the Inklings. They'd get together regularly to chew the fat, and many, if not most, were writers of fantasy in their own right. C.S. Lewis was a member of that group. Lewis and Tolkien were good friends for many years, but they had a number of fundamental disagreements that pained both of them. The most fundamental area of disagreement was religion, but that has nothing to do with the current case. Another area was allegory. C. S. Lewis believed that allegory was a fine vehicle for propounding beliefs, and he took great advantage of it in his two major works of fantasy: the "Silent Planet" trilogy for adults, and his Narnia series for children. I happen to believe that in terms of doing what it set out to do, Narnia is by far the better work. I must also say that when I read the concluding volume, "The Last Battle", I went "Ack! Ptooey!" because of the extremely heavy-handed religious allegory that dripped off the pages and made a mess in my lap. The remaining books in the series remain some of my very favorites in all of literature, in direct proportion to the absence of religious allegory. Tolkien professed a "cordial dislike" of allegory. When he found he was being accused of it, he was upset. The whole purpose of his fantasy work was not primarily to entertain the masses...at least, not in those terms. He felt that the English-speaking peoples were deprived in comparison to most other peoples of the world because they had no coherent mythology of their own permeating their culture. Such mythology as we have, we seem to have borrowed from the Greeks, Romans, and Norse. With remarkable hubris, and perhaps some wistfulness, he set out to rectify the fault. The "Silmarillion" is his basic work in this area. "The Hobbit" was his first attempt to put some of this down on paper to amuse his children, and "The Lord of the Rings" was his attempt to do the same for adults. He was himself a devout Catholic all his life, and was upset when some younger folks took to it as a "religion" rather than as mythology. (I understand Sir Alec Guiness, also a devout Catholic, was similarly upset by youngsters coming up to him and treating him as High Priest of the Force.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 86 09:01 CST From: Brett Slocum Subject: Re: flying switchboards and other anachronisms In the same vein as "Doc" Smith's switchboard display tank and Heinlein's hand calculation for navigators, I recall an Asimov short story where two planets were at war, all math and navigation was done by computer, and no one remembered how to do simple arithmetic anymore. The starships were incredibly expensive to build because of the massive amounts of computers that were necessary to navigate. Somebody rediscovered arithmetic by hand and they now had a cheap way of navigating: put a cheap human, easily trained, into the cockpit of the starships, and replace most of the expensive electronics. They won the war. Brett Slocum (Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 8 Apr 1986 10:16 EST (Tue) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: flying telephone switchboards Well, how about the guy in "Lost:Fifty Suns" who has an electronic sliderule? Now that's futuristic for you. ------------------------------ From: Michael O'Brien Subject: Fantasy recommendations - fancy language Date: Tue, 08 Apr 86 11:11:35 PST On the grounds that there are always new readers on this list (or in this newsgroup, whatever), I'd like to mention some truly classic works of "high fantasy" that have been out of print for some time, or might be otherwise neglected. This collection concentrates on use of language. Some call these horribly overwritten; others (such as myself) call them wonderful. This message is intended for those who, due to their rarity, might not have heard of them. The Worm Ouroboros Mistress of Mistresses A Fish Dinner in Memison The Mezentian Gate (incomplete) by E. R. Eddison "lapidary" prose, which means either "gemlike", or "having your brains smashed by a rock", depending on how well you like fancy language. Titus Groan Gormenghast Titus Alone by Mervyn Peake even more gorgeous prose. Either incredibly boring or a triumph of mood. Not an awful lot actually HAPPENS, but my heavens, what characters! Incidentally, fans might like to know that Sting has bought the movie rights to these works - he wants to play Steerpike. Hyperborea Xiccarph Poseidonia by Clark Ashton Smith these are collections of short stories published in the pulp magazines, issued as part of the now-defunct Ballantine Adult Fantasy Series. Probably the best command of language of all. Arabian-nights style. Kai-Lung's Golden Hours The Wallet of Kai-Lung Kai-Lung Unrolls His Mat etc. by Ernest Bramah (Smith) incredibly hard to find. Some were issued as Ballantine Adult Fantasy. I have almost all of them in hardback (eat your heart out). Probably the most overwritten of all. An attempt by a retired British civil servant to re-create his own idea of classical China. Wickedly funny and extremely understated humor beneath the fancy prose. Fans should, by the way, look for "The Mirror of Kong Ho", where a typically thick-headed Bramah Chinaman comes to early 20th-Century London. It's a book in letters detailing his experiences. Anyone with a copy of the illustrated "Transmutation of Ling" for sale should contact me immediately! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 86 9:26:41 EST From: "Daniel P. Dern" Subject: Another Sentient Computer Heard From Domino, in A.J.Budrys' MICHAELMAS. One of the few that I can think of that wasn't a) played for laughs b) used manipulatively (by the author, as a tearjerker -- Heinlein's Mycroft Holmes, example supreme), or c) being inappropriately under or overmature -- Gerrold's HARLIE, e.g. I'd add HAL & company to Domino. I guess my criteria here is I'm looking for a 'character' that 'feels' like a computer, rather than one that happens to be a computer. And then there was Zeb Carter's GAY DECEIVER in Number of the Beast, pre-Oz sequence. Boy did I feel ripped off when it turned out to 'only' be a computer. daniel dern ddern@arpa ------------------------------ From: pete@andromeda.RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Farabaugh) Subject: RE:alive computers Date: 8 Apr 86 17:19:35 GMT One of the best stories that I have ever read on the subject (also one of the best period) is For A Breath I Tarry by Roger Zelazny (In Last Defender of Camelot) Also there is one in his Unicorn Variations book that is very good although I can't quite remember the name of it (It may be Our Lady Of the Diodes). There is another great story in the Welcome to the Monkeyhouse collection by Vonnegut that I also can't recall the name to). I won't even begin to list the Ellison stories that will fit the bill Peter Farabaugh ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 86 01:37:22 PST From: Peter Reiher Subject: Skycam I believe that the first use of SKYCAM in a film was in "All the Right Moves", a film about high school football. It was used (rather well) to shoot the games. Peter Reiher ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 86 11:46 EST From: Robert W. Kerns Subject: Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net I'm forwarding someone the 13 episodes of the Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net. I just discovered I'm lacking three things of great importance: 1, 2) The two episodes of The Resturaunt at the End of the Net 3) The author of these wonderful episodes. These were distributed via SF-Lovers in 1984, and the first appearance I know of was in December, 1982 in net.jokes, apparently posted by "gkermit!markm", although after multiple forwardings it's a little hard to tell for sure. Can anyone supply any more information? The missing episodes? Thanks. ------------------------------ From: chandros@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Chandros) Subject: Base 3 computers and matrices Date: 8 Apr 86 18:45:16 GMT Normally I am content to just read this newsgroup, but I feel I have to respond to this article. Please forgive me. Jim Frost posted the following: >of software but hardware. They seem to be trying to emulate a >human brain, but doing so in a two-dimensional memory matrix. I do >not ad- mit to understanding how memory in humans works, but I feel >confident that it is NOT two-dimensional. A single discovery (for >example, a chip that works in base 3 instead of 2, which would >allow EASY memory- mapping in three dimensions) may so >revolutionize the industry Sorry to burst your bubble Jim, but the base a computer works in really has no effect on how a computer accesses memory. In fact, the early vacuum tube computers (ENIAC,MANIAC...) worked by SIMULATING DECIMAL GEARS. Even earlier, Charles Babbage designed a mechanical computer called the Differential Engine (see his book for a good description of it) in the 1870s (this is a ball park figure) that worked in base ten. By your argument all of the above should be able to access 10 dimensional matrices without resorting to breaking down the matrices. Sorry, it ain't so Joe. A matrix is broken down into 1 long vector and stored. It is very easy to memory map a 2,3,4,5,6,..,n dimensional matrix into computer memory this way (in fact, it's the only sensible way). The mapping function costs only a little hardware (or software) to do, and is very fast and easy. All the "base" affects is how instructions are executed by the silicon, tubes, neurons, tinker toys.... , that is, what the hardware has to go through to manipulate data. If you want more information, Jim (or for that matter anyone else), send me mail. I don't think that this newsgroup is the place for such a discussion, and I certainly don't want the net police coming after me. I know what you are trying to say about neat-o inventions that will affect the way computers are used, but you picked a bad example. Jonathan A. Chandross allegra!topaz!chandros ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Apr 86 0932-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #68 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 11 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 68 Today's Topics: Administrivia - What Mortals These Words Fool, Books - DeCamp & Duane (2 msgs) & Gerrold & Hogan, Zelazny & Multiple Author Books & Thieve's World, Television - The Tripods, Miscellaneous - Fence ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Apr 86 08:28:23 EST From: Saul Subject: What mortals these words fool Well, here it is almost 10 days after the beginning of April and guess what? I am *still* getting messages from people asking about the new subscription charges announced in the April 1 edition (Vol 11, #59) of SF-LOVERS. For those of you who haven't gotten it by now, that was the April Fool's issue. I guess the issue was much more subtle than I thought it was or else people were confused by the fact that they received the issue after April 1. Can you say "slow mailers and lousy hardware"? I thought so. It seems we were off the network for a few days and that delayed transmission of the digest even though it was prepared far enough in advance. I hope every one enjoyed the issue otherwise. If you didn't realize it was a joke, go back and re-read it. I thought it was funny but then I did write most of it (with a little help from some friends). Perhaps someday I will post the translation of the last message in that issue for people who wish to read it although a simple program and knowledge of what "rot 13" means should be enough. April Fools! Saul ------------------------------ Date: 0 0 00:00:00 CDT From: Subject: Harold Shea / Enchanter stories There are 4 (or 5, depending on how you count) stories in the Harold Shea/Compleat Enchanter series by De Camp and Pratt. They were published separately in magazines and then collected in various subsets: The Roaring Trumpet } The Mathematics of Magic } The Incomplete Enchanter } }The Compleat The Castle of Iron } Enchanter The Wall of Serpents } The Green Magician } The Wall of Serpents BTW, The Carnelian Cube is NOT a Harold Shea story! The source for this was _A Reader's Guide to Science Fiction_, by Baird Searles, et. al., Avon Books, 1979. Lynne C. Moore ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Diane Duane Date: 08 Apr 86 12:37:59 PST (Tue) From: jef@lbl-rtsg.arpa She has also written a Star Trek novel called "The Wounded Sky". There is a tenuous link between TWS and the Doors novels, since the Goddess appears in TWS too. To say more would be a spoiler. I liked the two Doors books a lot. TWS is ok for a Star Trek novel, but certainly can't compare to Ford's "The Final Reflection". Jef ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 86 17:39:23 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Diane Duane, etc. Someone here was asking about Diane Duane's other books. Among Trekkies, she is known for two of the best ST novels: THE WOUNDED SKY and MY ENEMY,MY ALLY. THE WOUNDED SKY is about an alien scientist who develops a way to get from one place to another, instantly. The Enterprise is chosen to be the first Federation ship to explore another galaxy-the Lesser Magellanic Cloud. I won't tell any of the plot for MEMA, because I would be giving stuff away then. Diane has also written two stories for DC's comic series, both of which were excellent. Quote from MEMA: Spock:"[Lieutenant Nahrat, a Horta] is quite logical, not unlike his mother-" McCoy:"So the truth will out! You like that boy because you knew his mother and SHE LIKED YOUR EARS!" Even non-Trekkies should enjoy these books. Garrett Fitzgerald ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 86 01:26 EST From: Andrew Sigel Subject: David Gerrold's "War Against the Chtorr" Tetralogy Having seen 3, 5, and 7 given as the number of volumes in Gerrold's "War Against the Chtorr" series, I checked SF Chronicle, and found that the correct number is 4, which is what I remembered being announced years ago when the first series came out. Hope this settles the matter once and for all. I have noticed lately a great deal of incorrect information appearing on this net as unqualified fact. Many people have the courtesy to say they are unsure of their information, but some don't, and this passes on some wrong information to readers who have no way of knowing it. A part of the problem that can't be helped is the delay in response from those who get their letters by digest, and may not know that a correct or an incorrect reply has already been made. I don't know what solution is possible. I would suggest that if you have a source for your information, cite it (e.g., a news magazine or reference, a copy of the book/series in question), and if you think you're right but the book is at home and you're at the office, say you're dependent on memory. For those who can't check sources, having three equally forceful and mutually incompatible statements on the same topic (e.g., the number of Thieve's Worlds collections out thus far, which is at 2, 6, or 8 depending on whom you believe (it's 8)) is worse than useless: it's frustrating. Andrew Sigel sigel@umass-cs.csnet ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 86 02:28 EST From: Andrew Sigel Subject: James Hogan > gsmith@weyl.berkeley.edu.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) writes: > I see you are a Hogan fan (mild understatement here). Have you >read Eric Frank Russell's "The Great Explosion"? This seems to have >been the major source of Hogan's "Journey From Yesteryear". Also, >his "Twice Upon a Time" seems to owe a lot to Gregory Benford's >"Timescape". Interesting comparisons both. Both "Thrice Upon a Time" (note correct title) and "Timescape" were published in 1980, the Hogan in March, so I rather doubt Hogan owes Benford anything (or vice versa). Andrew Sigel sigel@umass-cs.csnet ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 86 09:49 MST From: Roger Mann Subject: Amber series question Can anyone list the Amber series by Roger Zelazny in the correct order ? I just read Nine Princes In Amber and would like to start out at the beginning instead of the middle (end ?). Roger Mann RMann%pco@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 8 Apr 1986 01:20:06-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Multiple-author books > From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA > A more interesting example is "The Floating Admiral," by the > Detection Club (or some such) of London in the 1920's. This was > written as a kind of game, in which each author had to write: > > 1. A chapter advancing the story; > > 2. An appendix (not available to the other authors) which gives > the premise of the chapter, i.e., whodunnit and why and how. The > premise must integrate all the evidence presented in the previous > chapters. > > It's not much of a novel, but it is fun to watch each author climb > out of the hole dug by his/her predecessor and dig a new one. You > will never think of Agatha Christie as a prim lady after you have > read her chapter and underlying plot. > > Has anything like this been done in fantasy or SF? A > sword-and-sorcery quest novel seems like a natural, wherein each > author would have to extricate the party from one fix and leave > them in another. This type of story is generally referred to as a "round robin" story. I know of three in the sf/fantasy field (though there are certainly bound to be more. Unfortunately, other than the reprint of "Cosmos" mentioned below, none of these have ever appeared in book form. The first is "Cosmos", a serial that ran in a fanzine, SCIENCE FICTION DIGEST (edited by Mort Weisinger, later of DC comics fame), starting in July 1933. It was a 17-chapter space opera with the chapters written by Ralph Milne Farley, David H. Keller, Arthur J. Burks, Bob Olsen, Francis Flagg, John W. Campbell Jr., "Rae Winters" (Ray Palmer), Otis Adelbert Kline, E. Hoffmann Price, Abner J. Gelula, A. Merritt, J. Harvey Haggard, E. E. "Doc" Smith, P. Schuyler Miller, Lloyd A. Eshbach, Eando Binder, and Edmond Hamilton. This serial was reprinted in PERRY RHODAN (book series) #32-60. The second is "The Convenant", a 5-part story complete in the July 1960 issue of FANTASTIC STORIES, based on a cover painting by Leo Summers. The authors involved were Poul Anderson, Isaac Asimov, Robert Bloch, Murray Leinster, and Robert Sheckley. The last is "Genseric's Fifth-Born Son" (retitled "Ghor, Kin-Slayer" with the 7th chapter), a 12-part story that appeared in a semi-pro magazine, FANTASY CROSSROADS, #10/11-15 (1977-1979). The story was based on a fragment by Robert E. Howard, with the other 11 authors being Karl Edward Wagner, Joseph Payne Brennan, Richard L. Tierney, Michael Moorcock, Charles R. Saunders, Andrew J. Offutt, Manly Wade Wellman, Darrell Schweitzer, A. E. van Vogt, Brian Lumley, and Frank Belknap Long. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 86 02:27 EST From: Andrew Sigel Subject: Shared World Anthologies (multiple authors) > sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >"Thieves' World" consists of 8 story collections ("Thieves' World", >Tales from the Vulgar Unicorn", "Shadows of Sanctuary", "Storm >Season", "The Face of Chaos", "Wings of Omen", "The Dead of Winter" >and "Soul of the City") and two novels ("Beyond Sanctuary" by Janet >Morris, and one that slips my mind). The other novel is "Beyond the Veil", also by Morris, a sequel to "Beyond Sanctuary". >A ninth collection, "Blood Ties", is scheduled for August. All are >edited by Robert Asprin and Lynn Abbey (Mrs. Asprin, I believe) and >are published by Ace Fantasy. Lynn Abbey is indeed Mrs. Asprin. The novels are first published in hardcover by Baen Books, and a year later by Ace in paper. Ace seems to have gone to an approximately quarterly schedule for releasing the paperbacks: Oct. 1985--"The Dead of Winter", Jan. 1986-- "Soul of the City", Apr. 1986--"Beyond Sanctuary", Aug. 1986--"Blood Ties"; if that last were July, it would be strict quarterly; up to "The Dead of Winter" it was yearly. >The first two or three books were pretty good. After that, I think >they ran out of interesting ideas and some of the authors dropped >out (one of the best characters, Lythande by Marion Zimmer Bradley, >left Thieves' World for her own reality and now graces the pages of >F&SF and will soon be in her own book collection). Other authors who dropped out include Gordon R. Dickson, who wrote a novel called "Jamie the Red" with Roland Green about his character who has also disappeared, and Andrew Offutt says he's in the process of doing the same with "Shadowspawn". >Anyway, there are also two other series similar to "Thieves' >World": > o "Liavek" by (I think) Will Shatterly -- I personally think > this collection is better than TW #1 (or TW #any, for that > matter) and I hope they continue it. Especially good is the > Brust story (Hi, SZKB!). The Liavek series is edited by the husband and wife team of Will Shetterly and Emma Bull, and will be continuing; the second collection, titled "The Players of Luck", will be out in June. I agree with Chuq's assessment of the series. For one thing, Thieve's World is almost unremittingly grim; "Liavek" often brought a smile to my face, or just made me feel good, neither of which I can say about TW. > o "Heroes in Hell" -- a brand new collection put out by Daw > Fantasy and edited by Janet Morris. The credit (or blame) for the series goes to Baen Books, not DAW. There are two other series that weren't listed by Chuq, neither of which I have read as yet: o Magic in Ithkar, edited by Andre Norton and Robert Adams. There are two volumes in the series so far, published in trade paperback by Tor books. o Borderlands, edited by Terri Windling and Mark Arnold. The cover blurb reads, "Between the Elflands and The World is a place where magic runs amok..." I'm assuming this means it's a shared world anthology. Published by Signet. Terri Windling is the fantasy editor (consultant) for Ace. It is an April release, and so should just be out. Andrew Sigel sigel@umass-cs.csnet ------------------------------ Date: TUESDAY 04/08/86 16:28:27 PST From: 7GMADISO <7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> Hi! We Bitnauts have just gained access to your publication, which is great. I think you all are missing another 'live' computer, which is amusing since someone brought up its source: TIM, the biotronic AI from The Tomorrow People. By the way, The Tomorrow People ran several times on Nickelodeon a few years ago. I've been trying to get them to start showing TTP again, along with The Third Eye, another excellent show, but to no avail. George Madison (7GMADISO at POMONA.BITNET) ------------------------------ From: acf4!percus@caip.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus) Subject: GRADE CANCELS "THE TRIPODS"!!! Date: 8 Apr 86 21:49:00 GMT Michael Grade, famous for his attempt to cancel the British show DOCTOR WHO, has taken things too far. Recently, he has decided that the BBC WILL NOT MAKE A THIRD SEASON FOR "THE TRIPODS"!!!! This means that the series will completely end at the cliffhanger where the second season now finishes off, despite the fact that "The Tripods" is meant to be a trilogy, that only two of the books have been covered so far, and that the end of the second season is a horrible and depressing ending for the series itself. How can we stand by and let a jerk like Michael Grade do things like this? A. G. Percus (ARPA) percus@acf4 (NYU) percus.acf4 (UUCP) ...{allegra!ihnp4!seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Apr 86 21:52 PST From: DDYER@SCRC-RIVERSIDE.ARPA Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #64 >From: yetti!oz@caip.rutgers.edu (Ozan Yigit) >John Brunner, in his book SHOCKWAVE RIDER, describes a game called >FENCE, which appears to be a GO-like game. Did anyone actually >construct this game, and tried playing it ?? Does this game >actually exist (perhaps under a different name) ?? The description was complete enough to be played. A friend and I actually tried it out a few times, but I was not particularly impressed. It's not a GO-like game, because much information is concealed from the opposing player. As a result there is a rather large element of luck, which can only be partly compensated for by strategy. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 86 22:06:33 pst From: davstoy!dav@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (David L. Markowitz) Subject: Shockwave Rider: Fencing In the distant past (>5 years ago) I wrote a program to do the scoring for fencing. At the time high-res graphics workstations were a thing of Science Fiction, so I never finished the "board". I did try a couple games with friends. An interesting game, although not at all like Go. As far as I know, there is no commercial version of this game. It really does require a graphics display of greater than 1000x700 resolution. Since I now own one of these, I may consider implementing it (if begged nicely). David L. Markowitz Real Time Trekkie Rockwell International {!ucbvax!trwrb,!hplabs!felix}!csuf!davstoy!dav ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Apr 86 1022-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #69 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 11 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 69 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony (3 msgs) & Brooks & Duane & Gerrold & Vinge & Zahn (2 msgs) & Publishing Laws & Alive Computers (2 msgs) & Shared-world Anthologies, Television - The People, Miscellaneous - Typos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jhunix!ins_adjb@caip.rutgers.edu (Daniel Jay Barrett) Subject: Re: _Anthonology_ Date: 7 Apr 86 19:29:13 GMT > Just a comment on Anthony's works: > his cluster series (what little that I have read of it) and his > tarrot series (hard to find at times) are much better than either > the Apprentice Adept Trilogy or the Xanth series. One of his > better works is On A Pale Horse. I don't know about the rest of > the series, as we have not finished it yet (me reading, Anthony > writing). Even better than the "Aprentice Adept" and the above books is Anthony's BATTLE CIRCLE. I found it hard to believe that the same author that is putting out the latest Xanth books (eugh -- although I loved the first three) put out a real masterpiece like BATTLE CIRCLE. It is a 3-books-in-one-volume trilogy. ***** VERY mild spoiler ***** I have never seen another book like this, where the author kills and maims so many likeable main characters in one volume. VERY powerful reading at times! ***** end of mild spoiler ***** So what are you waiting for???? (Oh yeah: it's sometimes hard to find.) Dan Barrett ------------------------------ From: osu-eddie!jac@caip.rutgers.edu (James Clausing) Subject: Re: _Anthonology_ Date: 7 Apr 86 20:47:23 GMT I wholeheartedly agree that _On a Pale Horse_ is one of his best _Bearing an Hourglass_ (#2 in the series) was good too (though I liked the first better). Am anxiously awaiting the rest of them in paperback. Jim ------------------------------ From: ur-tut!abd1@caip.rutgers.edu ( Al) Subject: OX, ORN, Omnivore ..... Date: 9 Apr 86 00:28:50 GMT I've had these three books for a while now and want to know what order they should be read in. I was going to go by the order that they were listed in another of Anthony's books, but was told by someone (who couldn't really remember the right order anyway) that that wasn't the right order. Thanks for your help. Al Dunn UUCP: ...seismo!rochester!ur-tut!abd1 BITNET: abd1@UORDBV USMAIL: University of Rochester Taylor Hall Rochester, NY 14627 Phone: (716) 275-2811 work, 367-3577 home ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 86 17:39:23 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Brooks I'm suprised that discussion about Tolkein has gone on this long without mentioning Terry Brook's SWORD OF SHANNARA. It is such a blatant rip-off of LotR that it is not funny. We have analogues of the Nazgul,Sauron,Gandalf, Aragorn....this list goes on. I admit it is an interesting book, but still.... Garrett Fitzgerald ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Apr 86 12:03 EST From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Amazingly enough, the only books I've read by Duane are her two (I believe her only two) Star Trek books in the Timescape/Pocket Books series: "The Wounded Sky" and "My Enemy, My Ally". Of all the ST books I've read, they are definitely my favorites (with "The Final Reflection" coming a close second (third?)). She is extremely imaginative and definitely unpredictable... I also understand she's written several stories for the Thieves' World series. I didn't realize she did other fantasy writing. Would someone care to post a list of books she's written? I hadn't heard of the one(s) the previous writer mentioned (referring to some set of races in a world)... nj ------------------------------ From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: The War Against the Chtorr Date: 6 Apr 86 22:57:36 GMT dld@g.cs.cmu.edu writes: >Does anyone know anything about the state of final book in David >Gerrold's trilogy _The War Against the Chtorr_? For some >inexplicable reason, I absolutely loved the first two books, _A >Matter for Men_ and _A Day for Damnation_. At first glance, these >seem like mindless shoot-up-the-BEM trash, but something lifts them >out of that morass. Any information would be greatly appreciated; >I read the second book in 1984 and have been waiting impatiently >since. I think Heinlein's been vindicated. It feels a lot like STARSHIP TROOPERS -- except that Gerrold didn't postulate the only-veterans-can-vote rule. Which is what RAH says gets S-T its bad name. Brandon (P.S. For those who don't know -- no, it's not a S-T rip-off. It has similarities, but it's its own story.) decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 CIS 74106,1032 MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time) ------------------------------ From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer) Subject: The Peace War (was: alive computers) Date: 10 Apr 86 03:18:12 GMT gladys!bob (Bob White) writes: >The Peace War is now out in a book all by itself, and the author is >Vernor Vinge. A sequel, _Marooned_in_Real_Time_, is appearing in Analog (May-Aug). Haven't started it yet; I'm a month or so behind. One strategy occurred to me, but apparently not to the author. Since bobbles can't be bobbled, can't one protect oneself from embobblement by keeping a small bobble in one's pocket at all times? It wouldn't prevent decapitation, but it should have defended against the long-range embobblements, right? Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh) ------------------------------ From: gitpyr!chen@caip.rutgers.edu (Ray Chen) Subject: Re: Cobra, really(!) Date: 8 Apr 86 06:05:44 GMT > From: Laurence Brothers > After that last gaffe, I felt it incumbent on me to talk about the > real Cobra. Well, it was better written, but still kinda dumb, > certainly nothing to rave about. > > The whole premise is silly, that the computers cant be turned off, > that the vets can't be "humanized". The premise isn't quite as silly as you might think. Zahn came up with what I thought was a pretty good explanation for why the combat computer and much of the Cobra equipment couldn't be turned off. The military wanted the Cobras to be as tamper-proof as possible. That way, Cobras would be invulnerable to ECM (like being turned off in the middle of a battle) and captured Cobras could not be used against them by reprogramming the combat computer. The net result was equipment that couldn't be tampered with by anyone once installed. Somewhat stupid if you're looking ahead to the "What happens to these guys after the war ends?" but then that was a point Zahn was trying to make. The military usually doesn't. Second, the major problem wasn't the vets reactions to becoming civilians again, it was the civilian populations' reaction to the vets. They were understandably nervous knowing that supermen with un-overridable, computer-controlled combat reflexes were living among them. We're talking about people who possess physical strength and endurance on a level comparable to "the bionic man" (for those of you who remember that piece of garbage-tv), anti-personnel lasers implanted in their bodies, all tied into a combat computer that can and will take over and perform "reflex" actions in the face of immediate dangers that can't be overridden by the man. One stupid move on the part a "normal" civilian gets out of control and bam, the combat computer takes over, gets the Cobra out of the way, and/or takes the civilian out depending on how the computer assesses the situation. I'd be worried, too. Now I'm not saying this a great and wonderful book that everyone should rush out and read. The writing could have used a lot of improvement. But it's not as bad as you make it out to be. At least, not for the reasons you're citing. Ray Chen gatech!chen ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 86 11:44:57 PST (Wednesday) Subject: Re: Cobra, From: Cate3.EIS@Xerox.COM "Cobra" has some interesting ideas. The process of screening people before entrusting them with great power was reasonable. You don't give lightsabers to children, no matter how old they are. So Cobras better be very well adjusted. And the discussion of how to deal with great power after the war was fairly well done. "Cobra" is a fun book, and while it may not be great literature, it is entertaining. The ONLY problem I have with the book is the medical problems Zahn proposes would happen from changing normal people into Cobras. Henry III ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner) Subject: Those who believe in courtesy... Date: 7 Apr 86 17:00:20 GMT oyster@uwmacc.UUCP (Vicarious Oyster) writes: >> "Those who believe in courtesy (at least) to living authors >> will not touch this gobbler with a ten foot pole." > Ever since I first read the above, I wondered what it meant. I'm not sure the request is sincere, but this is related to an interesting quirk in American law that has had significant but invisible repercussions over the past few decades. Forgive me if I get some of the details wrong; the general gist is true. Many years ago, the U.S. signed an agreement which effectively allowed for free trade on books. Any country could export books to the U.S. and sell them there, provided there was no reason prohibiting sale of the books (e.g. obscenity). Later on, the federal government became more protectionist (either because times got harder or because they were being flooded with foreign books) so they passed an odd little law. If more than 10,000 copies of a particular book were imported, that book would lose its copyright in the U.S. Yes, foreign book companies could send their stuff to the states, but if they sent too many copies, they paid a big penalty. This happened to Lord of the Rings. That's right. The U.S. government does not recognize the copyright on Lord of the Rings. Anyone can go out and print their own editions. Now the Ballantine editions were *authorized* by Tolkien and presumably paid him appropriate royalties, which is why Tolkien wrote that message "Anyone who believes in courtesy to living authors..." Presumably there were other editions that did not pay Tolkien royalties, although I've never seen anything. This law seems to have been virtually invisible to the American public, though it was well-known in Canada. It meant, for example, that Canadian publishers who wanted to sell in the States had to find American printers to print the books so the books wouldn't have to go across the U.S. border. This was a long-time pain to our publishing industry, since it usually meant two print runs (one in Canada and one in the U.S.). It often forced Canadian publishers to sell U.S. rights to a U.S. company, just because it was too much trouble to find a U.S. printer. It also meant that a lot of good quality books never made it to the U.S. For example, most books published in England (e.g. Penguin paperbacks) have a little notice on them reading "Not for sale in the U.S.A." (Has anyone out there ever wondered why this is? Now you know.) The law was repealed (or modified) in the late 70's when the U.S. overhauled its whole copyright system. This had some interesting repercussions too. For example, Canada's big romance publisher, Harlequin, could print their books in Canada instead of the U.S. so they dumped all their U.S. holdings. The U.S. people who were dumped figured they knew enough about the romance market to start on their own so they formed Silhouette, thereby introducing competition to the romance market that Harlequin had monopolized for years. Ever wondered why romance books suddenly started having explicit sex scenes after years of pristine purity? Competition drives people to great lengths...but that's hardly a topic for SF lovers. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu (A Andrews) Subject: Re: alive computers Date: 7 Apr 86 22:10:24 GMT One of the early short stories about AC (Alive Computers) is a Murray Leinster one called "A Logic Named Joe," in which a home computer is alive and steals the guy's girl. Precursor of "electric Dreams?" Good story, but Leinster thought they'd be called "logics" rather than computers or PCs. arlan andrews ------------------------------ From: decvax!fropper@caip.rutgers.edu (George Triantafillou) Subject: Re: alive computers Date: 9 Apr 86 02:21:45 GMT What about the story "GOLEM XIV" from Stanislaw Lem's book _Imaginary Magnitude_? According to Lem, the acronym stands for General Operator, Long-range, Ethically stabilized, Multimodeling. Since it refuses to do any "work" for the defense department, the machine is eventually entrusted to M.I.T. Like much of Lem's work, it's pretty dense stuff, but still an interesting and fun book. George Triantafillou decvax!fropper Digital Equipment Corp. Merrimack NH ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Shared-world Anthologies Date: 8 Apr 86 11:17:12 GMT > From: sun!chuq (Chuq Von Rospach) > Anyway, there are also two other series similar to "Thieves' > World": > > o "Liavek" by (I think) Will Shatterly... It's Will Shetterly and Emma Bull. A new Liavek anthology (THE PLAYERS OF LUCK, I think) is due out in a month or two. And Will and Emma (collectively known as "Wilma") are now in the process of putting together a third volume. > o "Heroes in Hell" -- a brand new collection put out by Daw > Fantasy and edited by Janet Morris.... Not DAW, but Baen Books. It should also be noted that there is (so far) one shared-world horror anthology called GREYSTONE BAY, edited by Charles L. Grant, from Tor Books. And last, but not least, there is BERSERKER BASE, which is an anthology of separate Berserker stories by various authors that are sort of cemented together with interstitial material by Fred Saberhagen. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: atari!neil@caip.rutgers.edu (Neil Harris) Subject: Re: Zenna Henderson, author of The People Date: 9 Apr 86 02:20:35 GMT > From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (MARY MAROTTA) > Sorry to hear about the demise of this author, whose innovative > books about The People are on my shelf of "best-loved" SF of all > time. I was introduced to The People in a television movie made > from one of the novels. Does anyone remember this movie? I wish > it could be televised once more -- I'd love to tape it! Also, is > there a list of Henderson's novels and stories available? "The People" starred William Shatner and Kim Darby, and is available on videotape. Neil @ Atari ...lll-crg!vecpyr!atari!neil ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 86 08:40 EST From: schneider.WBST@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Typos in SF, etc. SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #65 I don't have any books in hand, but I recall some typos from recent readings of Dinner at Deviant's Palace and The Adversary. Most seemed to be missing letters, the became th. Guess the quality is going down to keep the price in line. On a related subject, the cover of The Adversary describes it as "the last volume of the Saga of the Pliocine Exile," (I may have misspelled something there) but there are a lot of loose ends that indicate another sequel. Not only do Marc and Elizabeth zoom off to the Duat galaxy, but we still have Felice and Cullket in Brede's room w/o doors, and Nodonn Battlemaster's unborn child on the scene, and quite a few others. So although the Exile is over, when do the other books come out? Regards Eric ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Apr 86 1048-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #70 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 12 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 70 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Brunner (2 msgs) & DeCamp & Henderson & Robinson (2 msgs) & Tolkien & Alive Computers & SF Poll & Story Request, Films - Skycam, Television - UFO, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Apr 86 07:34 EST From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: _Anthonology_ I read the first Tarot book and found it rather confusing, with Paul's character fluctuating in personality. Anthony's explanation is that it is the drugs, but it seems to me that someone with his association with the HOV should have a little more caution than to accept gifts from someone who calls himself "the Beast"...However, I'll have to read the other two books before I make a judgment. I have started on neither the Cluster nor the IOI series. As for Xanth, it is rather juvenile (and sometimes just plain stupid), but some of it's pretty fun. I enjoy the Adept series best; I understand he's coming out with some new ones. nj ------------------------------ From: proper!carl@caip.rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg) Subject: Re: Re: alive computers (optimistic?) [data-nets] Date: 9 Apr 86 02:53:22 GMT ericksen@unc.UUCP (Jim Ericksen) writes: >>I just finished reading an intriguing vision of an "alive" >>computer program. The book is _Michaelmas_ , written in 1976 by >>Algis Budrys. By the year 1999 (a bit optimistic, i think) all >>computers in the world are essentially one single information net. Oh, while we're on that tangent, read _The Shockwave Rider_ by John Brunner. They have a complete data-net there, too.. Any other books about full-nation datanets out there besides COILS by Roger Zelazny and Fred Saberhagen? I need to find out some fun things to do as soon as the datanet really DOES come into existence.. Computer survivalist? NOT alive computers, but close... 4GH-U-CARL_GREENBERG@PROPER-DHR3A ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 86 17:06:22 est From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Brunner's "fencing" Note that all the editions of SHOCKWAVE RIDER that I've seen include a separate copyright notice for this game relatively visible in the front matter. I doubt that Brunner would fuss about strictly amateur usage but any distributions should AT LEAST include a copyright notice. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 86 17:04:03 est From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: [IN]COMPLEAT ENCHANTER WALL OF SERPENTS in book form contained both this story (set in Finnish mythology) and an adventure in the realm of CuChulain (sp) that Shea had been trying to get to since the beginning of the first book. The rights to these stories have been fouled up by the obscure and long-dead magazines they were first published in; De Camp said at Philcon last December that he didn't think they were ever likely to be reprinted (and, said his manner, he didn't care; he & his wife are now almost as productive of new works as Asimov). ------------------------------ From: Chris McMenomy Subject: Re: Zenna Henderson Date: Thu, 10 Apr 86 13:25:09 PST Zenna Henderson wrote four collections of short stories, two specifically dealing with the People, a race who "turned to the Power" when humans turned to machines, and developed racial memory and inherited telepathic gifts such as clairvoyance, telekinesis, and telepathy. The first collection, , includes stories set in mid-twentieth century in the southwest (most of the People escaping when their ship broke up in Earth's atmosphere landed in SE Arizone/SW New Mexico), and involve second and third generation People born on Earth. was published later, but the stories deal with the first generation survivors of the crash and their acceptance/non-acceptance by the various inhabitants of the region. does not include any People stories. It does include the scariest story I personally have ever read, about a little boy who tacks various things onto his mother's vacuum cleaner and then imagines it into being as a sound-eater. All three of these volumes were first published during the 1960's; many of the stories first appeared F&SF and Galaxy. was published in the early 70's. It includes one new People story. I think at least one other uncollected story appeared in F&SF. "The People" was a 2 hour made-for-TV movie staring William Shatner as the country Doctor and Kim Darby (no, this is not a remake of "Miri") as the teacher who become involved with a group of People. It merges three of the stories which appeared in --"Balm in Gilead" was one, and the story of the group at Bendo another; various characters from other stories appeared as well. I generally don't like gratuitously changing the plotline of a story, but I remember this particular adaption as being very good (well, it's been fifteen years--the show was aired in 1971-72 sometime). The music the children remembered of the Home (their original planet) was particularly haunting. Two things to note: Zenna Henderson was a school teacher, living in Tempe (at least for a while), and her handling of children and teaching is among the best I have ever read. Second, there was a massive meteorite shower (ie, things hitting the ground) in the area of Arizona/New Mexico where the stories are set, about 1890, when the People were supposed to have crashed. Do you know anyone who can levitate? Christe McMenomy Rand Corporation ------------------------------ From: genat!phoenix@caip.rutgers.edu (phoenix) Subject: Re: Spider Robinson: a request for information Date: 6 Apr 86 20:23:50 GMT >From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} > All right, this is it: *someone* on this net must have this >information, if they dont know the man himself. Does he *ever* go >to sf cons on the east coast? I have been trying for close to *10 >years* to meet this man, if only to finally find another person who >seems as fanatic about Heinlein as myself. The only time I ever see >a report about his presence it is on the west coast Spider Robinson was at Conebulus II in 1980, in New York state. He lives in Halifax, Nova Scotia, and always goes to Halcon, the annual Haligonian con, also in Nova Scotia. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 86 17:10:15 est From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Spider Robinson at conventions Spider & Jeanne Robinson have been financially straitened for some time now; if being a writer at Spider's level of sales weren't bad enough, Jeanne teaches and choreographs modern dance in Halifax, which you wouldn't think of as a place where such things flourish. It has been, I think, some years since they came to any convention where they weren't substantially subsidized (which is why they've been on the West Coast---a lot of groups made them Guests of one sort or another in close succession). ------------------------------ From: thain@magic.DEC.COM (Glenn Thain) Subject: Re: FLAME to defend literature from Dumbbells Date: 9 Apr 86 01:24:06 GMT > From: Alastair Milne >> Having not read Wolfe, I will only say this: Do you really want >> to hold Tolkien up as the paragon of fantasy literature? >YOU BET I DO! Greetings and Salutations! I have enjoyed Tolkien's books, will admit to them being in the top 10 of my reading experiences. However, it would be a disgrace to the man and his work to hold him as the paragon of fantasy literature. His works infulenced a great many authors, and probably will influence a great many more, but his work was far from perfect. He was at times carried away with his own story and it shows. Frodo's endless trek through the Dead Marshes, where we are treated to days of endless wandering without significant plot development happens to be one such place. Now, before you jump up and down, I love Tolkien. Read the whole series of books he's written, and had help writing. Loved it all. But, let's not get carried away..... >If even 10% of all the books whose publishers insisted they were >another "Lord of the Rings" even came to within 50% of LOTR's >quality, we would have a wonderful collection indeed. Not even in >C.S. Lewis or R.R. Eddings have I found Tolkien's like. Vance >tries hard, and LeGuin is great, to name but two, but no fantasy >I've ever read can match Tolkien What makes it the best fantasy you've ever read? Plot? Story? I'm asking out of genuine curiousity, not to be snotty. I know what did it for me, it was the story and the characters. He made me feel as though Middle Earth was a real place, and these people were my friends. But so did Eddings. And Kuttner. And an all time fav, H. Beam Piper. There was a storyteller! >Now for an opposite opinion: LOTR is one of the few stories I have >ever read where I am unable to find any slack at all. In >considering what a script editor would have to do to make it into a >film of reasonable length (under 8 hours, let's say), a friend of >mine and I have frequently tried to find parts that could be >sacrificed without making the structure of the story come apart. >We can't do it. Every time we think of some small event, >apparently outside the main stream of events, it turns out that >removing it leaves a hole in the story later on. Seeing Bakshi's >choices for his "animated" version only reinforces our opinion. >The story is excellently well coordinated. Your a dedicated fan, there's no doubt. My friends and I went back after Bakshi's attempt and analyzed like you did. Conclusion, the same as yours, the story is well coordinated. Still and all, I felt the sequence with the Black Riders at the Ford was drawn out too long. Anyway, there were places from the book that could have been cut, ( for a movie ), since the book was primarily description and description eats up a lot of paper! >Suffice it to say that I know of no finer balancing of description, >thought, and action. Tolkien's words bring the beauties and the >horrors of Middle Earth to life, yet they all form part of the >plot: the glories of Lothlorien, the strength of Minas Tirith, the >horror of the Dagorlad and Mordor itself, and many, many more, >bring the story into three dimensions, give it reason for being, >and support its progress, rather than requiring it to stand aside >for a time while they are elaborated. And the finer parts, like >Gollum's insanity, Frodo's torment under the Ring, or Sam's >unerring loyalty, all make major contributions. None of them is >simply there as "another detail", omissible at will. > >There is much more to be said, of course, but lacking both the book >at hand and several days with nothing else to do, I'd better leave >it to somebody else to say. However, having seen at least one >public vote against LOTR, I felt obliged to report a vote for it. I agree Alastair, with all the above. Yet I think there are merits in all author's works, whether they be Tolkien, Eddings, or Spillane. Since I too don't have a year to defend them, let me just add that now there are two votes for LOTR, and probably a lot more comming. Thanks, Glenn ------------------------------ From: eric@wvlpdp Subject: Re: alive computers Date: 1 Apr 86 21:31:00 GMT There are several authors that write books that fall into the catagory of "give my creature life". The one author that comes to mind first is James P. Hogan - Hogan before he started writing Science Fiction full time was a sales rep for DEC, and being a Computer Scientist I very much enjoyed his books. Most of his books in one way or another deal very heavily with computers or AI. One other book that comes to mind is by Kevin O'Donnell its titled Mayflies (although Mayflies is about a computer/starship that once was a human being's brain). Eric L. Smith !inhp4!convex!ctvax!trsvax!doc!wvlpdp!eric ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 86 00:15:04 -0800 From: J. Peter Alfke Subject: Re: "Favorite SF" Poll All Time Favorite: "Engine Summer" by John Crowley or "Ringworld" by Larry Niven Favorite author: Philip Dick J.G. Ballard is amazing, too, but most of his stuff can't really be called SF. If John Crowley's next couple books are as wonderful as his last two, he'll go on this list too. Hardest to put down: "Engine Summer" Best with computers: Not really sure. Most books that get heavily into computers are too badly-written for me to enjoy (i.e. James Hogan). Let's say "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress". Most interesting/unusual: I'd love to vote for J.G. Ballard's "The Atrocity Exhibition", but it's not really SF. How about any of the "Illuminatus!" series? Best series: "Illuminatus!" by Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson or John Varley's "Titan" series or Larry Niven's Known Space Best written: J.G. Ballard's "The Drowned World" I'll even sneak in his "The Voices of Time" even though it's only a short story. "Fahrenheit 451" of course. Other books: Clarke's "The City and the Stars", which blew me away back in 5th grade Most Philip Dick, esp. "Ubik" How about fantasy? Best: "Death's Master" by Tanith Lee Author: Tanith Lee or J.R.R. Tolkien Hardest to put down: "Little, Big" by John Crowley (but I had to, because it's so long!) Computers: ???????? Unusual: Not sure. Series: "Night's Master"/"Death's Master"/"Delusion's Master", Tanith Lee Best Written: "Winter's Tale" by Mark Helprin or "Lord of the Rings" of course or any of James Branch Cabell's Poictesme series. Others: "The Compleat Enchanter" is lots of fun. "The Face in the Frost" by John Bellairs, or any of his juveniles. How 'bout the children's books by Edward Eager? ...or by E. Nesbit? Peter Alfke alfke@csvax.caltech.edu ------------------------------ From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: Who wrote this? Date: 7 Apr 86 07:19:34 GMT There was a story a while back (almost certainly in Isaac Asimov's) called "Body Magick". Does anyone remember who wrote this? (I noticed some similarities between this story and some events in Steven Barnes' (sp?) new novel) david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 10 Apr 1986 06:56:00-PST From: kenah%hardy.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Andrew Kenah DTN 381-1078) Subject: Skycam's inventor In Volume 11, Issue 65, someone (sorry, I missed the name) speculated that the inventor of the Skycam also invented the Steadicam. This is true. The inventor of both is Garrett Brown. He won an Academy Award for the Steadicam. As an interesting sidelight, Mr. Brown is probably familiar to many of you radio listeners... his is the male voice in those wonderful Molson Golden Beer commercials... (I've forgotten *her* name, but her voice... *sigh* I'm in love!) Andrew Kenah Digital Equipment Corporation Nashua, NH, USA, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 86 07:58 PST From: Hank Shiffman Subject: _Space_1999_ and _U_F_O_; Where can I find them? >From: ur-tut!jdia@caip.rutgers.edu (Wowbagger) >I've been trying to find VHS video tapes of Space 1999 and UFO, two >long ago discontinued Sci-Fi tv series. Space 1999 was distributed >by ITC I believe. > >UFO is much older than Space 1999 (circa 1970-72 ??). I'm pretty >sure that it was British, but not completely. If you know anything >about these shows, or about how and where I might find some >recordings of them, please contact me via email. Yes, UFO was another British program from ITC. It was produced by Gerry and Sylvia Anderson of Supercar, Fireball XL-5, etc. fame and was every bit as wooden as its predecessors. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Apr 86 1120-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #71 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 13 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 71 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & DeCamp & Duane (2 msgs) & Lovecraft & Tolkien (3 msgs) & Anachronisms (2 msgs) & SF Poll & Alive Computers & Book Request, Television - Tripods & Doctor Who ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: JHEREG by Steven Brust (mild spoiler) Date: 8 Apr 86 15:50:38 GMT The jacket reads: "There are many ways for a young man with quick wits and a quick sword to advance in the world. Vlad Taltos chose the route of the assassin. To his other qualifications he added two things: the first was a smattering of witchcraft--badly thought of on Dragaera, but only a fool refuses such a weapon... The second was his constant companion, a young jhereg, its leathery wings and poisonous teeth always at Vlad's command, its alien mind psionically linked with his own. Vlad has never regretted the sorcerous bargain he made with his jhereg's mother: "I offer your egg long life and fresh, red meat without struggle, and I offer it my friendship. I ask for aid in my endeavors. I ask for its wisdom, and I ask for its friendship." From reading the above, one would think (1) that the jhereg plays a major role in the book, and (2) that the jhereg is probably an interesting alien. Both assumptions are false. How alien can a creature be when it's main contribution in a dialogue is of the order of "Jeez, boss!"? The story starts out very uneven. In the first few pages we meet Vlad as a boy and learn how he "imprinted" the jhereg. Then, with no explanation, he is an adult, head of a successful assassin's syndicate. I presume that a previous book by the author covers the intervening years, but there's no mention of this in the story. The setting is interesting, though the author never makes clear the relationship between the cultures on the planet those off-planet. The story has to do with a particular assassination requested of Vlad and its planet-wide implications. The action, particularly in the first half of the book, is not well paced: many authors have difficulty finding the right combination of action and philosophy, and this one has one or two stretches of the latter than run on too long. I give this book 2.5 stars (good, but I'll trade it in next time around). Duane Morse ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ From: puff!anich@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Anich) Subject: Harold Shea : for james Date: 11 Apr 86 04:48:10 GMT >I've read (and re-read) Compleat Enchanter and Wall of Serpents. >Do you have any idea where Carnelian Cube showed up (short story, >book, anything). I'd appreciate anything you can think of. I think The Carnelian Cube was published as a short novel. Just recently I saw it advertised in the back of a book( I think it also mentioned in the afterwards to the Complete Enchanter) just recently. I'll try to dig up the information on this. Oh, could you send me you mailing address, the automatic mailer can't get through to you(and I'm too new on the system to get through by brute force). steve anich ------------------------------ From: m128a3aw@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse) Subject: Re: Diane Duane ...the list of short stories and upcoming Subject: stuff. Date: 9 Apr 86 22:42:53 GMT Since no one's put down a list of her short stories: Part of the "door"-word continuity: "Parting Gifts" (in Flashing Swords #5 ed. Lin Carter) "The Mdhaha" (earlier version of SEgnbora meeeting Hasai in Fantasy Book I think, #6) "Lior and the Sea" (in Moonsinger's Friends) Thieves World: "The Hand that Feeds You" (6th book, Wings of Omen) "Down By the Riverside" (7th book, Dead of Winter) "Midnight Snack" (in Sixteen Short Stories by Outstanding Authors for Young People..unicorns in the subways) and no one mentioned the Amber map! (you'll notice all the maps in her books are done by Diane herself) Upcoming Door Into Sunset and Door Into Starlight Third Wizard book Third Thieves World story (in 9th book of the series) A Wizard-story with an adult protagonist paperback editions of So You Want to Be a Wizard and Deep Wizardry Anothre STar Trek computer game possible!!(but undecided) Romulan Culture Guide ARPA: cc-30@cory.berkeley.edu UUCP: ucbvax!cory!cc-30 ------------------------------ From: kalash@ingres.berkeley.edu.ARPA (Joe Kalash) Subject: Re: Diane Duane ...the list of short stories and upcoming Subject: stuff. Date: 10 Apr 86 07:01:30 GMT m128a3aw@brahms.UUCP (Sean "Yoda" Rouse) writes: >and no one mentioned the Amber map! Well, if we get to that, she also did the map in "Ringworld Engineers". If you can find someone with a copy of the galleys of "Door into Shadow", it has about 3 other maps of her world. Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ From: chandros@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Chandros) Subject: Lovecraft & Necronomicon Date: 11 Apr 86 03:06:13 GMT Laura Creighton states: >Actually, I find 2 Necronomicons in the bookstore. One was written >in the 60s, and the other in the 70s. I have also seen another >Necromicon which was undated by was supposed to date from the 1500s >at least. I know the person who owns it sincerely believes that it >is a (the?) true Necronomicon but that is notoriously hard to >verify. Oh Boy. You people sure missed the boat entirely. H.P. Lovecraft INVENTED THE NECRONOMICON!!!! IT DOESN'T REALLY EXIST!!!!!!!! If you read any of the Lovecraft letters to his buddies (or the preface to his stories), he says that he invented the Necronomicon. What is so funny is the fact that Rare book dealers often advertise for copies of the Mad Arab Al-Hazred's (sp?? my copy is home) book. I'll BET its really hard to verify the Necromicon that your friend has. I think that the references can be found in "The doom that came to Sarnath" or "The Dream-Quest of unknown Kadath." Again, sorry, but I don't have my copies handy. (could also be in "The tomb and other Tales"). Any other Lovecraft fans out there?? Send mail if you exist. Jonathan A. Chandross allegra!topaz!chandros ------------------------------ From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: When is copyright not copyright? (w.r.t. LOTR) Date: 9 Apr 86 00:51:22 GMT oyster@uwmacc.UUCP writes: >> "Those who believe in courtesy (at least) to living authors >> will not touch this gobbler with a ten foot pole." > Ever since I first read the above, I wondered what it meant. > Does it mean anybody who at least believes in courtesy, or is it > anybody who believes in courtesy to at least those authors who are > still living? Also, were there tons of unapproved copies of the > book floating around at some point? [Courtesy, at least] [to living authors] Seemed obvious to me. The first American paperback edition was NOT authorized -- it came out something like 6 months before the authorized edition (check me, Jayembee?). Hence the notice. Brandon decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 CIS 74106,1032 MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time) ------------------------------ From: envsci@ucbamber.berkeley.edu (Environmental Sciences) Subject: Re: Those who believe in courtesy... Date: 10 Apr 86 02:07:41 GMT jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes: >Now the Ballantine editions were *authorized* by Tolkien and >presumably paid him appropriate royalties, which is why Tolkien >wrote that message "Anyone who believes in courtesy to living >authors..." Presumably there were other editions that did not pay >Tolkien royalties, although I've never seen anything. That was the Ace edition, which was why Tolkien said it. However, he did NOT phrase it that way. JRRT was much politer about it and said something to the same effect but along the lines of "those who approve of courtesy to living authors will not buy other editions" in his preface to the *authorized* edition. The part about the ten foot pole came when the Harvard Lampoon came out with Bored of the Rings, a parody of LOTR (which, by the way, is funny, funny, funny!). THEY used the quoted-above version on the back-cover blurb of the paperback. Eric Sadoyama c8s-ej@holden.berkeley.edu ucbvax!ucbholden!c8s-ej ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 86 10:12:53 EST From: "Daniel P. Dern" Subject: Growing Up With Tolkein Back in, umm, the early sixties, the libraries I was raiding included one belonging to a neighbor, who was one of my father's co-workers. The shelves included hardcover editions of The Hobbit and the LoTR Trilogy. May have been British. This clearly pre-dated the Tolkien craze by a few years (although 'Frodo Lives' was not far behind). Around then, Ballantine Books was cranking up their classic fantasy reprint activity, I believe, with gems like David Lindsay's A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS (now there's a weird one), the Gormanghast trilogy, G.K.Chesterton's THE MAN WHO WAS THURSDAY, et. al. SWORDS OF SHANANA was blissfully years away; ditto EXCESSES OF GOR [OK, they started out less vile]. And the prozines were full of Pohl, Heinlein, Leiber, and Simak ... ddern daniel p. dern ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 86 13:27:19 EST From: OSTROFF@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: anachronisms and resdiscovered arithmetic The story referred to was "A Feeling of Power" (Where a scientist rediscovers arithmetic, which is then classified as top secret by the army.) I don't remember whether the war is won - but I do believe the scientist kills himself at the end, when he sees what is being done with his discovery. I thought a particularly amusing scene was when the scientist was trying to convince a friend that 2 + 2 was ALWAYS going to equal 4. As many times as his calculator gave him the same answer, the friend couldn't bring himself to believe that it might not be different under some other conditions. Jack (OSTROFF@RUTGERS.ARPA) ------------------------------ From: daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp) Subject: Re: The giant flying telephone switchboard (on re-reading Subject: Lensman novels) Date: 9 Apr 86 11:49:53 GMT I seem to recall extensive use of slide rules in James Blish's "Cities In Flight" series, despite The City Fathers being very large and intelligent computers. I wonder what current sf ideas about computers or future technology will seem utterly ridiculous fifty years from now..... David Allsopp ------------------------------ From: uwvax!derek@caip.rutgers.edu (Derek Zahn) Subject: Re: "Favorite SF" Poll Date: 10 Apr 86 20:59:58 GMT All Time Favorite: _Macroscope_, or maybe _Dune_ Favorite author: Larry Niven (the techno-yuppie's hero) Best with computers: _Destination: Void_ Most interesting/unusual: _Mindswap_, a Robert Sheckley book about a guy trading bodies with a Martian. _Mindswap_ maybe? Read this at all costs if you can find it!! Best series: Known Space Best written: Don't know, so : Best Writer: Harlan Ellison Other books: Too many to detail. The first three Stainless Steel Rats deserve mention. As do Keith Laumer's Retief tales (both good bubble gum). Anything by Joe Haldeman. Fantasy: LOTR, and Donaldson, the only traditional fantasy works that I have even liked a little. (and I like these a lot). Zelazny's Amber stories are immensely entertaining. _Silverlock_ is worthwhile as well (John Myers Myers). Ah, can't forget _The Princess Bride_ by William Golding (Goldman?) Most Overrated: Robert Heinlein. I've read many of his books and hated every one (I keep reading because so many people say he is so great...) except the one with Michael Valentine Smith (title? memory's in fog mode today) which was very good; and some of the Lazarus Long stuff is OK. Oh, and a delightful short story called "The Man Who Traveled in Elephants" (or something like that) which is enough to forgive him 10,000 pages of garbage. derek ------------------------------ From: msudoc!arlow@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven E Arlow) Subject: Re: Alive Computers Date: 9 Apr 86 21:15:01 GMT First, a posting from a friend who has been following this discussion, but as yet does not have net access: > Another book that hasn't been mentioned about "alive computers" is > _Man_Plus_ by Frederic Pohl. The computer system in this book > contrives a way for the human race to ensure its own survival. > Read it. It is a good book about mankind's try to colonize > another planet by surgically modifying a human being.... > > Kelly Hokay. One book _I_ have been shocked to find no mention of so far is _Software_ by Rudy Rucker. Aside from being a nice example of the "technopunk" sub-genre, It gives a nice explanation of how computer intelligence could come about: Once simple ai robots are created, they are given a pre-programmed compulsion to interface on a regular basis with a source of random bits -- this is equivalant to 'mutation'. Since they are set to the task of mining for their own chips, they also have a 'survival of the fittest' situation, thus they 'evolve' true intelligence (by the time the book takes place, they have their own society -- no spoilers, this is background information). Let me also add a recommendation for any and all of Rucker's books, both SF and non-fiction/pop-science. He is a Mathematician by profession and only happens to write fiction, as such, I think he's the best fiction-writing mathematician we've had since Lewis Carroll [aka Rev. Charles L. Dodgeson]. ...!ihnp4!msudoc!arlow Steve Arlow ------------------------------ From: bolotin@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU Subject: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 6 Apr 86 07:35:00 GMT Here's one I haven't seen on the net before: Any recommendations for genuinely humorous fantasy or science fiction books? One of my favorites is "The Colour of Magic" by Terry Pratchett (sp?). I'd really like to find more in the same vein. Thanks in advance Russel Dalenberg ...!ihnp4!uiucdcl!bolotin ------------------------------ From: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu (fitz) Subject: Re: The Tripods TV series Date: 9 Apr 86 06:29:08 GMT I have seen the series you are talking about. I thought it was rather well made, considering the budget I heard of, and the fact that the Tripods themselves would be hard to film. I saw most of the series, and about 9 of the second. (There are three series in all, one for each book.) I recomend it, but I think one would have to make judgement only after seeing it, as people's tastes vary. Eric Fitzwater ------------------------------ From: sjuvax!giorgi@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: British SF TV Date: 9 Apr 86 22:08:23 GMT ins_ajpo@jhunix.ARPA (Adric of Alzarius) writes: >percus@acf4.UUCP (Allon G. Percus) writes: >>> The series was created by Terry Nation, who also created Dr. Who. >>Correction. Terry Nation created the first monsters in Dr. Who, >>but he did not create the show itself. (I think Verity Lambert >>and Mervyn Pinfield created the show). >Dr.Who was Verity Lambert's creation. The BBC assigned Mervyn >Pinfield to be her assistant producer. WRONG. Verity Lambert was the first producer of Doctor (not DR. ) Who. She was definitely not the creator althought she was the guiding force . The creator (can't remember his name) originally worked for ITV. He brought up the idea of Doctor Who to them and they laughed at him. Eventually he got a very important job in the BBC where he again raised the idea of Doctor Who. The BBC gave the show a chance and the rest is history. John A. Giorgi Saint Joseph's University Philadelphia, Pennsylvania {allegra | astrovax | bpa | burdvax}!sjuvax!giorgi P.S. I just remembered the creator's name. He was Sydney Newman. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Apr 86 0824-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #72 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 14 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 72 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson & Henderson & King & Sucharitkul & Tolkien (2 msgs) & Yarbro & Zahn & Funny SF (4 msgs) & Author Request, Miscellaneous - Word Identified ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 April 86 12:56 EST From: UUAJ%CORNELLA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Poul Anderson Story, location of? I'm trying to locate a copy of the short story (or novella) 'Sister Planet', by Poul Anderson. It was originally published in "Satellite Science Fiction" for May, 1959. If anyone knows of any collection where it appears, could they please e-mail me as below? Thanx. Artie Samplaski BITNET: UUAJ @ CORNELLA.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 12 Apr 1986 07:02:26-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Zenna Henderson > From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (MARY MAROTTA) > Sorry to hear about the demise of this author, whose innovative > books about The People are on my shelf of "best-loved" SF of all > time....Also, is there a list of Henderson's novels and stories > available? It seems to me that I did this here once before, but here's my chance to wash the taste of that Dalek list out of my mouth. :-) PILGRIMAGE: THE BOOK OF THE PEOPLE (1961) 6 People stories THE PEOPLE: NO DIFFERENT FLESH (1967) 6 People stories THE ANYTHING BOX (1965) 14 stories, including 2 People stories HOLDING WONDER (1971) 20 stories, including 1 People story Uncollected Stories: Before the Fact Universe (Jan 1955) That Boy F & SF (Nov 1971) Thrumthing and Out F & SF (Oct 1972) Katie-Mary's Trip F & SF (Jan 1975) A People story The First Stroke F & SF (Oct 1977) There was a Garden CASSANDRA RISING (1978) [edited by Alice Laurance] Tell Us a Story F & SF (Oct 1980) A People story ...Old...As a Garment SPECULATIONS (1982) [edited by Isaac Asimov & Alice Laurance] --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: styx!draper@caip.rutgers.edu (Margaret Draper) Subject: Cassette version of "The Mist"? Date: 11 Apr 86 23:30:44 GMT Stephen King appeared on a TV talk show on cable from the East Coast recently and mentioned that there was an audio cassette of a reading of "The Mist". Has anyone seen one, and if so, where can copies be procured? Thanks in advance, Margaret Draper ARPA: draper@lll-tis-b.ARPA UUCP: {ihnp4,dual}!lll-lcc!styx!draper ------------------------------ From: well!csz@caip.rutgers.edu (carter scholz) Subject: Somtow Sucharitkul Date: 6 Apr 86 08:24:21 GMT On behalf of a friend, I am seeking a current address or phone for the SF writer Somtow Sucharitkul. Please contact: Carter Scholz / 2665 Virginia / Berkeley CA 94709 / (415) 548-3654 {hplabs|dual}!well!csz ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: Growing Up With Tolkein Date: 12 Apr 86 02:21:58 GMT ddern@bbnccb writes: >the early sixties [...] clearly pre-dated the Tolkien craze by a >few years (although 'Frodo Lives' was not far behind). `Behind'? Do you perhaps mean `ahead'? In the early sixties, I was not yet born; so I am only guessing, of course, but I have my sources: The New York Times published a review of the work in, it seems, 1954; since the books continued to be `hard to find' for `years', it would be---at the earliest---the `early sixties' that the books `[exploded] into popularity'. But Mr. Beagle's introduction seems to say that it was closer to 1965, the mid sixties, that this occurred. I quote it here, in full (it is quite short). It's been fifteen years at this writing since I first came across THE LORD OF THE RINGS in the stacks at the Carnegie Library in Pittsburgh. I'd been looking for the book for four years, ever since reading W.~H.~Auden's review in the {\it New York Times}. I think of that time now---and the years after, when the trilogy continued to be hard to find and hard to explain to most friends---with an undeniable nostalgia. It was a barren era for fantasy, among other things, but a good time for cherishing slighted treasures and mysterious passwords. Long before {\it Frodo Lives!\/} began to appear in the New York subways, J.~R.~R.~Tolkien was the magus of my secret knowledge. I've never thought it an accident that Tolkien's works waited more than ten years to explode into popularity almost overnight. The Sixties were no fouler a decade than the Fifties---they merely reaped the Fifties' foul harvest---but they were the years when millions of people grew aware that the industrial society had become paradoxically unlivable, incalculably immoral, and ultimately deadly. In terms of passwords, the Sixties were the time when the word {\it progress\/} lost its ancient holiness, and {\it escape\/} stopped being comically obscene. The impulse is being called reactionary now, but lovers of Middle-earth want to go there. I would myself, like a shot. For in the end it is Middle-earth and its dwellers that we love, not Tolkien's considerable gifts in showing it to us. I said once before that the world he charts was there long before him, and I still believe it. He is a great enough magician to tap our most common nightmares, daydreams and twilight fancies, but he never invented them either: he found them a place to live, a green alternative to each day's madness here in a poisoned world. We are raised to honor all the wrong explorers and discoverers---thieves planting flags, murderers carrying crosses. Let us at last praise the colonizers of dreams. \gapskip \authorsize{Watsonville, California} \authorsig{\llap{---}Peter S. Beagle} \authorsig{Watsonville, California} \authorsig{14 July 1973} Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1415) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccrrick@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Heli) Subject: Re: Those who believe in courtesy... Date: 13 Apr 86 05:36:35 GMT > Now the Ballantine editions were *authorized* by Tolkien and > presumably paid him appropriate royalties, which is why Tolkien > wrote that message "Anyone who believes in courtesy to living > authors..." Presumably there were other editions that did not pay > Tolkien royalties, although I've never seen anything. The company which published the "unofficial" editions was Ace. It was partly due to this publication that we owe the existence of the LotR appendices which were included to drive the Ace editions out of the market. Humphrey Carpenter goes into it in some detail in his biography of Tolkien. rick heli UUCP: ... {ucbvax,lll-lcc}!ucdavis!ccrrick ARPA: ucdavis!ccrrick@ucbvax.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ From: jgold@bbncca.ARPA (Jamie Gold) Subject: looking for book - Messages from Michael Date: 11 Apr 86 18:18:49 GMT pardon me sf-lovers, this only marginally belongs here. I'm looking for a copy of a book by Chelsea Quinn Yarbro titled Messages_from_Michael. The book is about several people who contact an "entity" via ouija board who communicates messages on the nature of the soul. The philosophical content of this book is so interesting that it matters little whether one believes the ouija board premise. I wanted to reread it, but I seem to have lost my copy. The sequel just came out (More Messages from Michael) and is in the stores, but I can't seem to find a copy of the first book. It's published by Berkeley, and I was told by bookstores that it can only be ordered in batches of 25 or more. If you have this book, I'd like to buy it from you. If you see this book I'll gladly send you a check to purchase it and ship it to me. Jamie Gold (jgold at bbncc6.arpa) BBN Communications Corporation 33 Moulton Street rm 8/052 Cambridge. MA 02238 617 497-3673 ------------------------------ From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer) Subject: Re: Timothy Zahn Date: 11 Apr 86 22:15:59 GMT math.linda@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU (Linda Wald) writes: >I enjoyed A COMING OF AGE and SPINNERET, both rather original and >nicely done.... "Cascade Point" won last years novella Hugo >(deservedly). Any of these three are well worth reading. I liked _Spinneret_, but with _Cascade Point_ I had trouble suspending my disbelief. I'll grudgingly accept that only the "important" branches of one's multiversal self appear as Cascade images (though I wonder how the "important" ones are selected from the Aleph_two* possible paths). Why should they line up neatly in four directions? (Which four? Is there a preferred orientation in the universe? What determines a horizontal plane in space?) If they can't be photographed, how can they be seen by other observers? Could you see them in a dark room? Wearing a blindfold? Can a blind person see them? Enough. It *was* a pretty decent story otherwise, and maybe the sequel (_The Evidence of Things Not Seen_, Jun Analog) will clean some of it up. Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh) *This figure depends on several assumptions including continuity and GCH. I'd be happy to discuss why I used this value, but this is not the place. ------------------------------ From: puff!anich@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Anich) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 11 Apr 86 20:30:30 GMT >Any recommendations for genuinely humorous fantasy or science >fiction books? One of my favorites is "The Colour of Magic" by >Terry Pratchett (sp?). I'd really like to find more in the same >vein. I read the _Color_of_Magic and enjoyed it very much. As for others, I can't think of to many. _Cats_Have_No_Lords_ by Will Shetterly was humorous (as was his _Witch_Blood_). I've been told that Mister Scientology himself wrote a series of humorous fantasy novels. Oh and a recent one by Jack Chalker called something like "And the devil....". I don't remember the title off hand but it had Asmodeus as a drunk and had Communist Gnomes. By the way, check out _The_Star_Diaries_ by Stanislov Lem. It was the funniest sf book I ever read. Also JOB by Robert Heinlein is extremely funny(probably my second favorite.). Steve Anich ------------------------------ From: bucsb!odin@caip.rutgers.edu (Odin) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 12 Apr 86 01:51:49 GMT Humorous Fantasy is indeed one of the least refered to and (to me at least) most enjoyable sub-genres of F&SF. A couple of my favorites are: 1) The Myth Adventures series by Robert Asprin, including: Another Fine Myth Myth Directions Hit or Myth Little Myth Marker Myth Conceptions (I think theres another one but I can't remember what it is, note that these titles are not in order) 2) Samurai Cat. Mark Rogers is a genius, both as an author and a graphic artist, look for his prints and book. There is only one samurai cat book out so far, but he has said there will be more coming... Ben Page CSNET: odin%bucsb@bu-cs ARPANET: odin%bucsb%bu-cs@csnet-relay UUCP: ...harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!odin BITNET: odin%bucsb%bu-cs%csnet-relay.arpa@wiscvm ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 10 Apr 86 16:24:19 GMT Try the following: Dancing Gods Series by Jack Chalker River of the Dancing Gods Vengeance of the Dancing Gods Demon of the Dancing Gods Dimension of Miracles by Robert Sheckley Mindwarp by Robert Sheckley Options by Robert Sheckley Journey Beyond Tomorrow by Robert Sheckley Star-Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers, by Harry Harrison The Technicolor Time Machine, by Harry Harrison Bill the Galactic Hero, by Harry Harrison Author, Author (short story) by Isaac Asimov What is this thing called Love (short story) by Isaac Asimov A Logic Called Joe (short story), by Murray Leinster Master of Space and Time, by Rudy Rucker A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, by Mark Twain The Lensmen Series by E.E."Doc" Smith (yes, I know the author intended them to be straight, but they're howlingly funny) Tik-Tok, by John Sladek The Flying Sorcerors, by Larry Niven and David Gerrold (not entirely sure that it was David Gerrold, but definitely Niven and someone else) Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex (short story), by Larry Niven The Compleat Enchanter, by Fletcher Pratt and L.Sprague DeCamp Lest Darkness Fall, by L.Sprague DeCamp The Hitch-hikers Guide Books, by Douglas Adams: The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy The Restaurant at the End of the Universe Life, the Universe, and Everything So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish What Entropy Means to Me, by Geo. Alec Effinger Hope this list gives you something to work with. Some of the books I mention have very serious bits as well, but just stand out in my mind as funny. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 86 15:05 PST From: Kinsman David J <8440827%wwu.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA> Subject: SF Humor Has anyone come accross any SF humor similair in nature to the Douglas Adams trilogy. I loved those books and am interested in finding others that are similair. Thanks, David Kinsman ------------------------------ From: msudoc!arlow@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven E Arlow) Subject: looking for author's name... Date: 10 Apr 86 20:09:56 GMT I just recieved a recommendation for a book entitled _Daystar_and_Shadow_ . As far as I know it is no longer in print. Anyone knowing pertinent information about it (such as, Author's name, correct title if that's not it, etc.) , it would be greatly appreciated. Storyline as described to me involved people who could communicate telepathically with desert-dwelling worms (smaller than the Herbert (RIP) variety)... Thanks in advance, Steve arlow ...!ihnp4!msudoc!arlow ------------------------------ From: cisden!john@caip.rutgers.edu (John Woolley) Subject: A word identified Date: 8 Apr 86 16:42:25 GMT Recently somebody asked about the meaning of a strange word used in Gene Wolfe's _Book_of_the_New_Sun_. Apparently the article has expired, so I don't know who asked, but here's the answer. The sentence in question is on page 5 of the first volume of BotNS (_The_ _Shadow_of_the_Torturer_), and says: "As though an amschaspand had touched them with his radiant wand, the fog swirled and parted to let a beam of green moonlight fall." This word "amschaspand" is an odd spelling of the old Avestan word which in English is usually spelled "Amesha-Spenta" (but one occasionally sees "Amsha-Spand"). (Did Wolfe's spelling come through German somehow?) It literally means "Immortal-Holy", and refers to any one of the six (or by some counts, seven) archangels of the Zoroastrian religion. They are the chief servants and aides of Ahura-Mazda (also called "Ormazd"), the good god. (There is a bad god, too, named Ahriman.) It is an open question, and much discussed, just how much influence the ancient Persian conception of angels had on pre-Rabbinical Judaism, and therefore on Christianity. (One might perhaps better ask how much of the nature of angels was revealed to the Zoroastrians, and through them to the Church.) Anyway, it's historically and linguistically accurate to translate "amschaspand" as "archangel". John Woolley ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Received: from RED.RUTGERS.EDU by RED.RUTGERS.EDU with TCP; 15 Apr 86 02:46:47 EST Date: 14 Apr 86 0857-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #73 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 14 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 73 Today's Topics: Books - Brooks & Brust & Gerrold & Herbert & Johnson & SF Poll & Live Computers & Funny SF (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ubc-cs!andrews@caip.rutgers.edu (Jamie Andrews) Subject: Re: New terry Brooks book Date: 11 Apr 86 17:37:56 GMT anich@puff.UUCP writes: >Has anyone read the new Terry Brooks(author of **Shanara**) book? >If you have let me know what you think of it. * flame of Anor on * If it's anything like the original _Sword of Shannara_, it's just yet another rehashing of themes, incidents, character attributes, and settings originally found in Tolkien. Brooks is one of the most bare faced and slimy rippers-off of Tolkien around (in my humble and non-libelous opinion). Did you know that "Elessedil", the name of the Elf king in _Sword_, could easily be interpreted as a name in Tolkien's Elvish, with the meaning "Lover of Elvish Names"?!!? Disgusting. * flame of Anor off * Apologies to Brooks fans out there, but he is *not* one of my favourite authors. Jamie. ...!ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!ubc-cs!andrews ------------------------------ From: starfire!brust@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust) Subject: Re: Jhereg Date: 4 Apr 86 08:46:35 GMT > I like the work of Brust and would appreaciate any information > anyone could supply concerning his past work and any upcoming > novels. A sequel to Jhereg, perhaps... A sequel to Jhereg will be out at the end of '86. It will be called, TECKLA. Jhereg is a first novel. The others, in order, are: TO REIGN IN HELL, YENDI, and BROKEDOWN PALACE. And thanks, by the way. skzb ------------------------------ From: cc@ucla-cs.ARPA (Oleg Kiselev (a student still)) Subject: Re: The War Against the Chtorr Date: 9 Apr 86 09:29:09 GMT >From: David.Detlefs@G.CS.CMU.EDU >Does anyone know anything about the state of final book in David >Gerrold's trilogy _The War Against the Chtorr_? For some >inexplicable reason, I absolutely loved the first two books, _A >Matter for Men_ and _A Day for Damnation_. At first glance, these >seem like mindless shoot-up-the-BEM trash, but something lifts them >out of that morass. Any information would be greatly appreciated; >I read the second book in 1984 and have been waiting impatiently >since. MINDLESS?! Gerrold's _Chtorr_ books are some of the best SF works I have ever read. The "something(s)" that "lifts them out of that morass" are Gerrold's writing style, the highly sophisticated character developement, unpredictable and exciting story line, deep philosophical musings, unusual approach to an "alien contamination/invasion" subject, very realistic and moving character interactions, the books' strange uplifting mood despite the deeper and more inescapable tragedies that happen all the way through them, the feelings of despair and agony and human suffering - along with courage and strength. I would highly recommend these books to SF readers. My rating of them is +4 (on -4..+4 scale). And I am too waiting for the 3rd book...... Oleg Kiselev oleg%OACVAX.BITNET ------------------------------ From: uvacs!mac@caip.rutgers.edu (Alex Colvin) Subject: Re: Re: alive computers Date: 11 Apr 86 15:16:32 GMT donch@teklabs.UUCP (Don Chitwood) writes: >One very interesting novel that deals with intelligence and >the creation thereof, is DESTINATION VOID by ??Frank Herbert??. Interesting! "Destination Void"? You've got to be kidding. That was one of the worst SF novels of all time! It makes "Men, Women, Children, & Household Pets of Dune" look good by comparison. The book is just Herbert slinging lots of jargon that he obviously doesn't understand. I think "The Jesus Effect" was a rewrite, not a sequel. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Apr 1986 21:51-CST From: marick%ccvaxa@gswd-vms Subject: Fiskadoro (review) Fiskadoro, by Denis Johnson, Knopf, 1985 (hardcover) Certain people will enjoy this book quite a lot. Others will certainly dislike it. Describing the books to which it is similar may be best -- if you liked those, consider trying this. The first book is "A Canticle for Leibowitz". Like that book, "Fiskadoro" is a post-holocaust novel, although set only a generation after WWIII. More importantly, it shares with "Canticle" the twist that the survivors are incapable of interpreting the details of the past. I have always remembered the "Canticle" monks patiently illuminating circuit diagrams. I think I will always remember the way that, in "Fiskadoro", the history and mythology of the Israelites and Rastafarians have merged. I find such touches useful in a book of this kind; they're a steady drumbeat, just at the surface, reminding me that things have changed. Because the changes the war brought about are central to the book. Good science fiction sometimes reminds me of good anthropological description. It shows you a possible culture, with different customs and, most importantly, different ways of thinking. Typical science fiction assumes that all sentient life, and certainly all humans, think and react alike -- are twentieth-century, middle-class, well-educated rationalists like the author, most of his audience, me, and probably you. (Or, worse yet, are nothing more than an exaggeration of some human trait.) "Fiskadoro" does an excellent job of depicting a peasant fishing village (a somewhat foreign culture) and how it both ignores and digests the changes caused by the war. But "Fiskadoro" is more concerned with individual characters. The war is long in the past -- the world has partly recovered -- but it is still a central part of life, is still changing the world, and still looms in the background, promising further changes. This concentration on the effects of great events on individuals is similar to "Radix" (although without that book's extravagance) and several novels of J.G. Ballard. The "mystical" tone of the book, the writing style, and the disoriented, shell-shocked characters are similar to much of Ballard (especially "The Crystal World" and related books). I am also reminded of Philip K. Dick's characters, who were often ordinary people coping with extraordinary situations. The book is clearly in the literary mainstream and doesn't owe much to science fiction's rich history. Plot is not particularly important, although there is a wonderful sub-story, the recollections of an old woman who escaped the fall of South Vietnam long, long ago. The ending is an "epiphany", a fashion (invented by James Joyce and nurtured thoughout the years by the New Yorker) which I loathe. Brian Marick ------------------------------ From: oliveb!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barb Jernigan) Subject: Re: Poll Date: 11 Apr 86 19:26:46 GMT OK, I'll succumb (and remember, there's no accounting for taste)... [NOTICE, titles subject to change without notice; ratings dependent on phase of the moon in conjunction to Uranus' tilt ... and a lot of other appropriate mumbo jumbo). All Time Favorite SF Book: Mote in God's Eye - Niven & Pournelle They did their homework. I enjoy a read where the world is "complete" down to the gnat's ass. _Mote_ gave me that feeling. Honorable mention: Fuzzy books - Piper; Wrath of Khan - McIntyre; Protector - Niven; High Justice - Pournelle; Practice Effect - Brin; Witches of Karres - Schmitz; High Crusade - Anderson; Lathe of Heaven - LeGuin; Ship Who Sang - McCaffrey; Breed to Come - Norton ... All Time Favorite Fantasy Book: The Riddle Master of Hed - P.McKillip [Book 1 is my fav' the other 2 merit HIGH honorable mention.] Again, a sense of Completeness. Scope approaching Tolkien's with the same care -- and a better who's who mystery. I LIKE the ideas, esp. Land Holding, the mode of shape changing, and Deth. Beauty - McKinley All time favorite heroine. McKinley writes _ME_. Tempest - Shakespeare Need I say more? Honorable mention: Last Unicorn & Fine & Private Place - Beagle; Deryni books (I'm a weird one who prefered the Camber 3); Face in the Frost; The Blue Sword - McKinley; Castle Down & Broken Citadel - Gregorian (anyone know when the 3rd book is due?); Amber - Zelazny; Dracula Tapes & Holmes/Dracula Files - Saberhagen (the former is best if you've read the Stoker original); The Princess Bride - (the immortal) S. Morgenstern (!);The Weirdstone of Brisingamen & The Moon of Gomrath - Garner; Pyrdain (esp. Taran Wanderer) - Alexander; Narnia - Lewis; EarthSea - LeGuin; Dragonworld (I forget who);Urshurak - M-somebody and the brothers Hildebrandt; Pern stuff - McCaffrey;Lion of Ireland - Llewyllan; ElfQuest saga - the Pinis (and, no, I'm not a cultist about it -- but something, I'm not sure what, really gets under my skin and roosts there);Myth(s) - Asprin; Silverlock - Myers Myers ... and that's enough for this pass >grin!< (and you thought I was going to forget Tolkien....>grin!<) Favorite SF Author: humph. Lessee, who do I jump to pick up? Niven, yeah -- at least today. Like his ideas. honorable mention: Pournelle, Brin, Piper, McIntyre, LeGuin (runs hot and cold), Zelazny, some Anderson... Favorite SF Author: Robin McKinley She writes like I think. Maybe we share the same Muse? Certainly the same passions... honorable mention: Beagle, Zelazny, McKillip, Alexander, Garner, Springer ...see book honorable mention... and whatshisname -- oh yeah, JRRT >grin< (by the way, I LIKED Simarillion (sp) -- best creation myth I've ever read) Hardest Book/series to put Down: I marathon _everything_ -- that's the way I read. The major titles springing currently to mind though: Hunt For Red October (not _really_ SF, but it sprang to mind) Beauty - McKinley Riddle Master of Hed - McKillip Elf Quest (either the _original_ mags or the color books...I'll pick one up, and the next thing I know three hours has passed) Most intresting/Unusual SF: Practice Effect - Brin Lord of Light - Zelazny honorable mention: High Crusade - Anderson; Lathe of Heaven - LeGuin Most intresting/Unusual SF: Unicorn Variation - Zelazny (short) honorable mention: Amber; Fine & Private Place - Beagle; Silverlock - Myers Myers (a challenge to get all the allusions) Best Series/cycle: Best? I know no best. Look back under favorites ... still ... favorite bests (which isn't the same as favorites)... SF: Fuzzys - Piper honorable mention: Niven's Known Space Fantasy: Riddle Master of Hed - McKillip (do I repeat myself? >grin<) honorable mention (not necessarily in order of preference): Deryni (1st & 2nd trilogy -- haven't started the third); Pern - McCaffrey; Amber - Zelazny; Broken Citadel & Castle Down - Gregorian; EarthSea - LeGuin; Pyrdain - Alexander; Narnia - Lewis; Weirdstone & Moon - Garner (see above); Hobbit + Lord of the Rings - Tolkien Best Written: SF: Mote in God's Eye honorable mention: nearly anything Zelazny, but lets say Lord of Light; a lot of Niven; a lot of LeGuin Fantasy: Silverlock - Myers Myers The man did his Homework without being ponderous about it. I compare this _favorably_ to TS Eliot's _Wasteland_ (uh oh, ten university English prof.s just clutched their hearts) -- and it's a lot more palatable. honorable mention: Donaldson's first trilogy. I was not able to finish book 1, this body can only take so much depression. The sheer unadulterated careful crafting of his words, and the depth of his ideas (he was, after all succeeding too well at what he was trying to say -- the books are deep as a "bottomless" pit) may spur me to a retry -- when I'm feeling VERY good about myself. Riddle Master of Hed - McKillip. The best (I've read) since Tolkien doing what Tolkein does. (Donaldson may be better than both, and I've not read Wolfe.) Hobbit - Tolkien He adopts a voice and succeeds. Lord Of the Rings - Tolkien Like it or not, the man is the mold of modern epic fantasy. Tempest - Shakespeare. The twin pinacle of the man's work. The other is King Lear, which, if I felt confident about classing as fantasy, would be my all time favorite and hardest to put down. Lewis; Alexander; Zelazny; LeGuin; Clarke ... Most Fun to read: SF: Hoka Books - Dickson (and Carr?) honorable mention: Callahan's Bar (punster beware!); Witches of Karres; Warlock in Spite of Himself & Warlock Unbound (Father Vidicon of Cathode, preserve us!) <-- cross reference with fantasy; Dream Park - Niven & Barnes; Practice Effect - Brin... Fantasy: (this one is no contest) Princess Bride - the immortal S.Morgenstern (alias Wm. Golding) honorable mention: Myth Books - Robert Asprin; Beauty - McKinley; Peter Beagle Best Short Story: SF: The Star - Arthur Clarke honorable mention: Nine Billion Names of God - Clarke; The Queen of Air and Darkness - Anderson; No Truce with Kings - Anderson; Niven's Known Space Fantasy: Unicorn Variations - Zelazny honorable mention: The Imp of the Perverse - Poe; LeGuin's where the Prince starts time again (he has a griffin), I forget the title. And, the final topic which everyone has been avoiding like the Denarian plague (makes your tongue turn purple with electric green and blue spots)... Books I'm most embarrassed to say I enjoyed ... The first four (and no MORE than that) of John Norman's Gor series (before Tarl Cabot lost his honor). The rest aren't worth the paper they're printed on (and getting worse I hear), but the first four had some good adventures (if you ignored the women really want to be slaves drek)(and that was good for some adolescent jollies)(>grin!<) So, that's it, an admittedly incomplete list (!) -- for now. I've got to GO! Barb ------------------------------ From: oliveb!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barb Jernigan) Subject: Re: Another Sentient Computer Heard From Date: 11 Apr 86 20:06:48 GMT I'm amazed. No-one's yet mentioned Laz' Long's sidekick Dora. And then there was the planet based computer in the same book (whose name currently defies memory) that fell in love and became human. I thought _that_ was a nice twist on things (and proved Laz' reasons for arresting Dora's emotional age at, what was it?, 13?) Barb ------------------------------ From: calma!pincus@caip.rutgers.edu (Jon Pincus) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 11 Apr 86 17:16:03 GMT Much of Eric Frank Russell's stuff -- particularly "Plus X" (novelized in an old Ace Double as _The Space Willies_) and "The Alamagoosa" (which won a Hugo Award) is really funny ("Plus X" is in the excellent collection _4 for the Future_, edited by Groff Conklin). More quirkily, I'm a big fan of Robert Anton Wilson, especially the _Illuminati_ trilogy (co-authored by Robert Shea). I fell out of my chair laughing at some parts of this . . . on the other hand, some people I've given it to have just thought it was weird or boring, clearly due to their intellectual inferiority (:-), just so nobody misinterprets that!). A friend of mine swears by David Gerrold's (and Larry Niven's?) _The Flying Sorcerers_, but I thought it was sort of too obvious. jon ucbvax!calma!pincus ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner) Subject: More humour in F&SF Date: 11 Apr 86 15:56:28 GMT A few more humourous books/stories my friends have recommended: All the Retief books, by Keith Laumer The Princess Bride, by William Goldman (S.Morgenstern) -- very heartily recommended by one and all The Compleat Werewolf, by Anthony Boucher Operation: Chaos, by Poul Anderson The Hoka books, by Poul Anderson and Gordon R. Dickson Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Received: from RED.RUTGERS.EDU by RED.RUTGERS.EDU with TCP; 15 Apr 86 05:57:46 EST Date: 14 Apr 86 0914-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #74 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 14 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 74 Today's Topics: Books - Clarke & Russell & Simak & Tolkien (2 msgs) & Vinge & Zelazny & Funny SF, Television - Buck Rogers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: athena!dalel@caip.rutgers.edu (Dale Lehmann) Subject: Re: alive computers Date: 12 Apr 86 00:37:57 GMT gcc@ssc-vax.UUCP (Greg C Croasdill) writes: >I have yet to read the book 2010, so I don't know what sort of BS >they put in there, but, HAL in 2001 came from a left-shift >modification from a current day main frame computer company (if you >guess right, then you win a blue suit :-|} Wrong! While "IBM" can indeed be transformed to "HAL" by substituting the next preceding letters, that is not the origin of the name. HAL stands for "Heuristically-programmed ALgorithmic computer"; I believe this was noted in the movie. It's been a long time, though, and I can't remember for sure. However, I definitely remember seeing equipment with the Itty Bitty Monster's blue logo on it, and several aerospace companies' names were also prominently displayed; so why would they need to come up with that obtuse reference to IBM? Dale Lehmann UUCP: ...!tektronix!teklds!dalel Tektronix, Inc. USMail: P.O. Box 4600, Beaverton, Oregon 97075 ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 13 Apr 86 02:08:57 GMT pincus@calma.UUCP (Jon Pincus) writes: >... Eric Frank Russell's stuff -- particularly "Plus X" (novelized >in an old Ace Double as _The Space Willies_) /// is really funny >("Plus X" is in the excellent collection _4 for the Future_, edited >by Groff Conklin). The `full' story has finally been printed in the U.S., under the title _Next of Kin_, ISBN 0-345-32761-6, by Del Rey, a division of Ballantine Books, which is itself a divison of Random House. The copyright page indicates that the book has been released in Canada as well. Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1415) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ From: umnstat!roy@caip.rutgers.edu (Roy St.Laurent) Subject: Clifford Simak (long) Date: 8 Apr 86 18:45:20 GMT The following article appeared in the Minneapolis Star and Tribune on Monday, March 17: Clifford Simak's a real spellbinder by Jim Fuller It is fitting that Clifford Simak can work a certain kind of magic. A grand master of science fiction and fantasy, one of perhaps a dozen world- acclaimed writers who lifted the genre from comic book simplicity into the realms of art and philosophy, he has written more than 40 books about wondrous things -- intelligent beings from other star systems, sensitive robots, creatures to whom magic is an everyday tool. His own magic lies in his ability to turn a visitor's attention from his physical infirmities to subjects of greater significance. He can lead the listener effortlessly to important matters too often forgotten. So engaging is his conversation that it displaces awareness of age and other physical facts of the moment. Simak -- "Cliff" to everyone who knows him -- is 81 and rather frail. Age got a grip on him a few years ago, and it has squeezed him hard during the past four or five years. For much of that time he has suffered from leukemia. He's "holding it at arm's length," and his doctors say it will not shorten his life, but it has gnawed some of the meat from his bones and sapped his energy. Climbing stairs takes considerable effort, and winter locks him inside his home because "old bones break easily, and knit very badly." In December, Agnes (known to friends and family as Kay), his wife of 56 years, died after a long illness. While the death of his wife was profoundly painful, Simak presents the other details of his recent life simply as facts. He talks about age and illness only because he is asked, because as one who spent 47 years as a newspaper reporter, he knows that the questions must be asked, and it is his way to be open and honest. He talks, too, about friends he's not seen for several years, voicing concern and asking questions. But with minimal prompting, he'll guide a listener into the kind of mental probing that has been his habit since, as a youth in southwestern Wisconsin, he was inspired by unfettered writers such as Edgar Allan Poe and H.G. Wells. He attended the University of Wisconsin briefly, but left to become a reporter, and educated himself through his work and voracious reading, which he did "because I was extrememly interested" is science, philosophy and much more. He thinks not only about what the future may hold, but also about how we live now, how we interact with our environment, what makes us happy and unhappy. For instance, Simak's most successful novel, "City," published in 1952, suggests that cities, as such, will have no place in the world of the future and in fact already are outmoded. Some of his characters -- highly evolved dogs -- can scarcely believe that such a thing ever could have existed. He said he believes now more than ever that "Cities are outmoded, have outlived their usefulness. With the development of shopping centers, the excuse for the existence of cities disappeared," he said firmly, and the advent of personal computers has made them even less useful. "There is no sense now to rushing into the city en masse, using up gas, fraying nerves. If we didn't have a city now, we certainly wouldn't build one." On other questions he is less certain. He sometimes has been called a religious writer, although he said he doesn't see himself as one. Several of his books have dealt with the frequent conflict between faith and science and/or technology. The 1972 novel "A Choice of Gods" chronicles several groups of characters, each of which has in effect chosen its own god or set of gods. The book suggests that the only group to make the wrong choice was the one that put its faith in technology. "I have always thought of myself as a Christian, but I couldn't prove it," he said. "I have always wondered about the birth of the universe." As one who has spent much of his life writing about science, as reporter and author of fiction, he has given much thought to the Big Bang theory, which suggests that a mass of energy became more and more compressed until it exploded, sending out bits of matter and energy that evolved into the universe as we now know it. "Supposedly there was nothing before," Simak said, tilting his head and staring thoughtfully at a point in the upper air of the room. "Before the explosion there was no time, just this egg of energy getting tighter and tighter, hotter and hotter -- but where did it come from? The idea that there was no time before the bang is awfully hard to swallow.... "If somebody pointed me in the right direction, I'd probably be a very religious person, but I haven't found that right direction. I doubt if the human race will ever know why we're here or how the universe started." But he noted, "There are all those questions: Where do we come from? What's our purpose? Are we watched over by some supreme being? Are we owned?" A writer, he said, can do almost anything starting with such profound unknowns. In fact, it is just such a question that lies at the core of a new Simak novel, to be published in June. He started the book about four years ago, and completed it last June. Called "Highway of Eternity," it is a novel with a big theme, that there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, an approach for which Simak is famous. More, it assumes that "Life was a matrix on which intelligence could be built." It deals with the question of whether this is a closed or open universe -- that is, a universe that will remain basically what and where it is, or one that is spreading out, dissipating. "If it is dissipating, then eventually it will cease to exist, and so why should we have that intelligence to begin with, if it is just going to end?" he asked. Obviously, he said, the book is "very philosophical." But, he quickly added, "I tried to write it in terms people can understand. The big concept is not unusual in science fiction. The secret is to fill it with good characters, then, when you have good characters, don't hold them to a set pattern. The characters will take the story and run with it. That sounds silly as hell, but it happens." It has been happening nicely for Simak since 1931 -- excepting the one bad year in the early 1940s when he suffered from the only writer's block of his career. Rather than "sitting and raging within myself," he turned during that year to churning out formula Western stories for pulp magazines. He produced more than 20 novels, hundreds of short stories and four nonfiction science books for teenagers before he retired in 1976, at 72, from the Minneapolis Tribune. He had spent 37 years on the Tribune and The Minneapolis Star, and 10 years before that on small Midwestern newspapers. He wrote the books, he told co-workers, by going home each evening and writing "a sentence, a paragraph, a page at a time." Since retiring he has written about a dozen books, making a total of about 40, many of them published in several countries. All but one, "a horrible book" he will not allow anyone to publish, are still in print. "You count the first dozen books, and then it doesn't matter anymore," he said. While his science fiction pieces deal with the so-called big themes, his fantasy stories often are light, sometimes slyly funny. His central characters, however, inevitably are ordinary, even simple, people -- or creatures. The characters are ordinary people, he said, "because I know them best. All the people I write about have prototypes somewhere. I can understand them, I know them and I like them. They are simple people who, when they say something, are sincere, and when they say something they say it in language everyone can understand." That basic approach to writing no longer is unusual in science fiction, but it was almost unheard of when Simak entered the field. Science fiction meant mad scientists, and frequent battles with fantastic weapons and lots of planet hopping. From the start, Simak violated the rules, writing about real people, rather than pure science. He and two contemporaries, Jack Williamson and Edmund Hamilton, began about the same time to show, as Simak said, the effects of science on common people. They were joined by others, writers like Robert Heinlein, Gordon Dickson, Fred Pohl, Isaac Asimov, Damon Knight and Ray Bradbury. Together, they changed the face and form of science fiction. Simak's awards are on the mantel in a room that isn't used much. There are three Hugo awards, regarded as the Oscar of science fiction writing. There is the International Fantasy award, for "City." There is the Grand Master award from the Science Fiction Writers of America for a short story, "Grotto of the Dancing Deer," which was named the best short story of 1980 by the same group. There is a plaque commemorating his induction into the Science Fiction Hall of Fame. Simak was more interested in talking about "Highway of Eternity," the book to be published in June. "It just might be the best work I've ever done," he said. Then, after a pause, he added, "I have a horrible feeling it will be my last book." He has not been writing of late. Most of his time now is spent in reading -- Proust, Thoreau, Washington Irving and other great writers -- and in sorting, filing and generally ordering notes, letters and other papers accumulated through the years. There is one more book he wants to write, he said, if he can regain some strength. If not, he figures he can use the same concept to produce a series of short stories. "I'd like a few more years, but if it doesn't happen, I won't do any moaning about it. I'll be content to be slipped into the crypt next to Kay. I've been able to do much more in my life than I ever thought I would." As he talked through a long afternoon, though, and spoke of the writing he still wants to do, Simak's energy seemed to increase. His voice strengthened, and even climbing a set of stairs seemed easier. "My preference is to continue to write," he said. "I will, if I can." end of article Roy St. Laurent ...ihnp4!umn-cs!umnstat!roy ------------------------------ From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Those who believe in courtesy... Date: 9 Apr 86 21:07:34 GMT oyster@uwmacc.UUCP (Vicarious Oyster) writes: >>"Those who believe in courtesy (at least) to living authors will >>not touch this gobbler with a ten foot pole." > > Ever since I first read the above, I wondered what it meant. As the one who used the above misquote as a signature quote, I should explain. I was quoting from the back cover of BORED OF THE RINGS, an excellent parody on LOTR by National Lampoon when they were still the Harvard Lampoon, from memory, and didn't get it quite right. This article closes with the correct quotation, which parodies Tolkien's statement on the back of the Ballantine authorized edition, in full. pH "A STATEMENT FROM THE AUTHORS ABOUT THIS LAMPOON EDITION this paperback edition, and no other, has been published solely for the purpose of making a few fast bucks. Those who approve of courtesy to a certain author will not touch this gobbler with a ten-foot battle-lance." ------------------------------ From: slu70!guy@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien Date: 9 Apr 86 18:57:24 GMT I've been reading "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien" on and off for the last month or so (I knock off one or two before bed). If you are curious about Tolkien himself ar about some of the ins and outs of the writing of LOTR this is interesting reading. It includes some insight into the underpinnings of LOTR that I haven't seen elsewhere and even some comments on the reception the book first recieved. It's a mixture of letters to friends, his son, Christopher, his publisher and miscellaneous others. I don't know about availability. I picked it up on a remainder table for a song. ------------------------------ To: KW Heuer Subject: Re: The Peace War Date: Sun, 13 Apr 86 12:03:10 -0500 From: Frank Hollander The idea of keeping small bobbles around for protection was certainly covered in the book. A bobble in one's pocket doesn't prevent a bobble from being placed around one's head, etc. They developed complex "embobbling"(??) devices... Frank Hollander ------------------------------ Date: Sun 13 Apr 86 11:17:28-EST From: Laurence Brothers Subject: AMBER Nine Princes in Amber The Guns of Avalon The Sign of the Unicorn The Hand of Oberon The Courts of Chaos Trumps of Doom ? ? ? . . . Note that Trumps of Doom is a different plot line following the adventures of Merlin, son of Corwin. Laurence ------------------------------ From: daemen!boyce@caip.rutgers.edu (DWB) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 13 Apr 86 02:47:06 GMT You might want to read Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat series. Thought it's not written to be humorous it is interlaced with humor. Doug Boyce Daemen College, Buffalo NY UUCP : decvax!sunybcs!daemen!boyce or ihnp4!kitty!daemen!boyce ARPA : boyce%buffalo@csnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 13 Apr 1986 15:49:34-PST From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Buck Rogers I was watching an episode of Buck Rogers in the 25th Century the other night and whilst Buck was at the spaceport they called over the intercom: "Captain Christopher Pike please report to Veterans Affairs Office" Maybe you had to be there, but I thought it was interesting :-). ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Apr 86 1020-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #75 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 16 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 75 Today's Topics: Books - Brust (2 msgs) & Clarke & Lem & McKiernan & Vinge & Shared Worlds (2 msgs) & Funny SF, Films - Eyes of Fire, Television - The BBC, Miscellaneous - Typos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Apr 86 11:29 CST From: Brett Slocum Subject: Re: Jhereg (msg by Duane Morse) To: anasazi!duane@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU My opinion in regards to Jhereg by Steven Brust is just the opposite of yours. I found the book to be excellent, and the Jhereg to be an important addition. The humor of the story would be much reduced without the banter between Vlad and his Jhereg. As far as the separation between the prologue and the main story is concerned, the intervening life of Vlad is immaterial to the story Brust is telling. Oh, this is a fantasy story if you didn't notice, so there is no off-planet culture. BTW, this is the first book Brust wrote in this setting. Yendi is a prequel (a book written later, that details events that occur before) that may fit niche you're looking for. Yendi tells the story of Vlad's rise from a small time operator to a much bigger territory. It also tells how the he fell in love with the women who assassinated him. (* no spoiler necessary, that's on the cover blurb and in the prologue. *) I find the world, the politics, the characters, the magic, and the action in these books fascinating. I found it very hard to put down. I give it 3.5 stars, and as a SF collector, would keep it for re-reading, lending to friends, etc., and have recommended it to many. (BTW, I keep anything that rates above 1 star.) Brett Slocum --(Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 86 12:09:18 PST From: chuq%plaid@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: JHEREG by Steven Brust Cc: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu > The second was his constant companion, a young jhereg, its > leathery wings and poisonous teeth always at Vlad's command, its > alien mind psionically linked with his own [...] > > From reading the above, one would think (1) that the jhereg plays > a major role in the book, and (2) that the jhereg is probably an > interesting alien. Both assumptions are false. How alien can a > creature be when it's main contribution in a dialogue is of the > order of "Jeez, boss!"? I don't see why you think the jhereg would play a major role (besides, why blame Brust for the excesses of an overactive blurb writer?). It may not be a critical part of the story, but I found the way Brust wrote it in as official second banana to be interesting and humourous. > The story starts out very uneven. In the first few pages we meet > Vlad as a boy and learn how he "imprinted" the jhereg. Then, with > no explanation, he is an adult, head of a successful assassin's > syndicate. I presume that a previous book by the author covers > the intervening years, but there's no mention of this in the > story. I disagree. Brust built up enough background to give you some context on the society and the characters, and then jumped into the fray. In both Jhereg and Yendi he flashes back into history when he needs to make a point or clarify something. If he'd stopped and taken the time to write the whole life of Vlad, he would have ended up with a 12 volume book, most of it probably boring... > The setting is interesting, though the author never makes clear > the relationship between the cultures on the planet those > off-planet. I think you missed something here -- unless I really misread the books, there is no off-planet culture here. the two cultures are geographically separated, no more. Perhaps that is part of your dissatisfaction with this book -- it isn't SF, but straight fantasy. come to think of it, everything I've read from Steven is Fantasy. > I give this book 2.5 stars (good, but I'll trade it in next time > around). I rate it much higher, around 4 or so. I think you might have read expectations into the book that weren't there. chuq ------------------------------ From: sun!falk@caip.rutgers.edu (Ed Falk) Subject: Re: alive computers Date: 13 Apr 86 23:48:06 GMT > I have yet to read the book 2010, so I don't know what sort of BS > they put in there, but, HAL in 2001 came from a left-shift > modification from a current day main frame computer company (if > you guess right, then you win a blue suit :-|} According to Arthur C. Clarke, he and Kubrick came up with HAL as standing for "Heuristic Algorithmic Logic" (or something like that), and didn't notice the "ROT1" resemblance to IBM until after the movie came out, when it was pointed out to them by their fans. Interestingly, IBM helped Clarke and Kubrick pick out the name, but Clarke doesn't say how much help that was. I think the relationship is more likely coincidence than contrivance. Ed Falk, sun microsysstem ------------------------------ From: steinmetz!putnam@caip.rutgers.edu (jefu) Subject: Re: Re: alive computers Date: 12 Apr 86 10:22:32 GMT Several years ago (around 1980) the New Yorker published a short story by Stanislaw Lem about artificially intelligent critters 'living' inside a computer and musing about their creator. This description is rather fuzzy as I have not been able to find a copy of the thing. Does anyone have more information? The exact issue of the New Yorker would help. I have noticed some new Lem paperbacks recently but didnt see this in any of them, does anyone know if it has been reprinted? jefu UUCP: {rochester,edison}!steinmetz!putnam ARPA: putnam@GE-CRD ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 86 13:58:42 PST From: lah%miro@BERKELEY.EDU (Cmndr. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Re: Brooks/McKiernan >I'm suprised that discussion about Tolkein has gone on this long >without mentioning Terry Brook's SWORD OF SHANNARA. It is such a >blatant rip-off of LotR that it is not funny. We have analogues of >the Nazgul,Sauron,Gandalf, Aragorn....this list goes on. At least they're only analogs. Dennis McKiernan's Iron Tower Trilogy is not only blatant it's badly written. Direct rip-offs, like an elf named Gildor; near-direct rip-offs, like little people who are good at missile weapons who live peacefully in a rural environment (there's a female in this one, though -- do I detect Smurf-ette syndrome?), a dark lord named Modru, Wargs (except they're Vulgs in this one...) and a realm named Mithgar (well, maybe he borrowed from the same tradition as Tolkien, after all, there's also a pseudo-Anglo-Saxon High Speech). An ending that's deliberately unhappily happy (if you can parse that). And besides that, "unnecessary roughness" (Oo! I haven't killed any of the major characters in six pages -- time for another cute little Warrow to bite the dark!), mindless doggerel ("We are Thornwalkers/ Thornwalkers are we"), and worst of all, a plot dragged out into three books that would have fit comfortably into one, just for the sake of having a Trilogy Like Tolkien's. Give me a break. Preferably not in any of my extremities. In short: Gag. Stay away. Regards, Leigh Ann ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!markb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar) Subject: Re: The Peace War (was: alive computers) Date: 11 Apr 86 17:16:19 GMT kwh@bentley.UUCP (KW Heuer) writes: >One strategy occurred to me, but apparently not to the author. >Since bobbles can't be bobbled, can't one protect oneself from >embobblement by keeping a small bobble in one's pocket at all >times? It wouldn't prevent decapitation, but it should have >defended against the long-range embobblements, right? I had always assumed that the bobble jammer mentioned near the end of the book worked by this method. But even this wouldn't protect you against some of the more nasty things you could do with a bobbler. For example: try shot-gunning a volume with lots of 1cm 1/100 sec duration bobbles centered around the target using some nice volume filling random walk. Makes instant mince-meat out of anything in the volume. You wouldn't even care if some of the bobbles didn't get created because of overlap, if you could make them fast enough. NOTE: this effect would also make a good tunneling or digging method. Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb ------------------------------ From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Shared-world Anthologies Date: 12 Apr 86 13:31:03 GMT boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes: >And last, but not least, there is BERSERKER BASE, which is an >anthology of separate Berserker stories by various authors that are >sort of cemented together with interstitial material by Fred >Saberhagen. As long as you're going to include worlds which had previously been the domain of a single author, who later invited other authors in, we should then mention THE MAGIC MAY RETURN and MORE MAGIC, edited by Larry Niven and set in his "Warlock" universe. Or did somebody already mention them? If so, I apologise. pH ------------------------------ Date: Mon 14 Apr 86 12:29:50-EST From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: Shared Worlds You could also consider the Cthulhu Mythos stories a shared-world series, although it wasn't intended that way. It's even flakier and less consistent of tone than the others, ranging from very good horror to very bad adventure/sf. ------------------------------ From: proper!carl@caip.rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 14 Apr 86 03:32:20 GMT bolotin@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU writes: One good series is the Mythadventures, by Robert Asprin. It's being turned into a great set of comics by Phil Foglio at WaRP graphics, too. The series goes: Another Fine Myth Myth Conceptions (May have these two Myth Directions confused in order) Hit or Myth Myth-ing Persons Little Myth Marker For sf, try The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, by Douglas Adams. The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy The Restaurant at the End of the Universe Life, the Universe, and Everything So Long and Thanks For All the Fish Also the book _Mallworld_ by Somtow Sucharitkul is a great far-far-future one. _The Flying Sorcerers_ by Larry Niven and [I forget] is funny, especially when you have a collection of our discussions on the names in there. Carl Greenberg ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: EYES OF FIRE Date: 12 Apr 86 20:27:15 GMT EYES OF FIRE: Things that Go (Natty) Bumpo in the Night A film review by Mark R. Leeper Capsule review: An unusual horror film set in pre- Revolutionary back-woods America. After a shaky start, this horror film has some unexpected thrills as settlers move into a valley cursed by Indians whose spirits live inside trees. Not always coherent, but often surprising. Somebody once described war as being sheer boredom punctuated by moments of stark terror. That's not a bad description for EYES OF FIRE, a rather unconventional horror film. To begin with, it is set in the forests of pre-Revolutionary America. It has been a good long time since I have seen ANY film with that historical setting. A genuine horror film set in "Last of the Mohican" country is a real oddity. A preacher who has spent some time in a backwoods community has soured his welcome by fooling around with one of the local women. He is saved from hanging by the daughter of a witch whom he has taken in and who appears to have some of her mother's talent. The preacher, his paramour, her children, the witch's daughter, and assorted hangers-on set off to find a better place. Instead, they discover a hidden valley cursed by Shawnee Indians whose souls live in trees that at times take on human faces. As our intrepid band are establishing a settlement they start facing dangers that old Dan'l Boone never imagined. Bloody corpses read out of the ground, swamp creatures grab the unwary, children get sucked into trees, Indian bands in various degrees of undress appear from nowhere, attack, and disappear. This is clearly not a glossy, professionally finished film. But, as films like NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD, CARNIVAL OF SOULS, or LEMORA have demonstrated in the past, horror is one genre in which a film can overcome rock-bottom budgets and even high-school acting to still be effective. I liked POLTERGEIST but, frankly, this film is often just as effective and the whole film probably cost no more than one or two scenes of the Spielberg film. In spite of its slow start, give EYES OF FIRE a +1 on the -4 to +4 scale. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: Michael O'Brien Subject: BBC Wars Date: Mon, 14 Apr 86 10:25:14 PST Rumblings have been appearing regularly about how "The Beeb" is going to cancel Dr. Who, or The Tripods, or even The Queen, for all I know. Many have called for letter-writing campaigns, or demonstrations, or blood in the streets. I don't think it'll do any good. "The Beeb" has always been pretty independent of anyone, including the constituency of Parliament, which after all pays the bills. I think there are other, more practical alternatives. For one thing, the Arts & Entertainment Network, which includes the now-demised Entertainment Channel, has entered into several co-production agreements with the BBC. Conceivably they could take over production of proven profit-makers (proven in America, anyway). Or, consider WGBH in Boston, often referred to as "God's own PBS Station", lording it over Channel 2 while other paeons in the PBS world sit around 13 or 28 or somewhere - they produce any number of shows all by themselves, and consortiums of WGBH, WQED, KQED, KCET and other biggies could conceivably take over production. At the risk of the usual incendiary response, I'll point out that the PBS production of "The Lathe of Heaven" proves that they CAN do good work...if the way has already been pointed out to the, as with Dr. Who and ilk, the chances for success are that much greater. And with shows of proven popularity in America, their chances of getting enough viewers and contributions to "make their nut back" is much higher. Of course, this comes at the cost of genuine, original production that wouldn't be made, but PBS doesn't do that many series anyway. In short, I counsel the good old American Way - buy the suckers out. ------------------------------ From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@caip.rutgers.edu (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Typographical Errors Date: 14 Apr 86 00:38:21 GMT cpf@batcomputer.UUCP (Courtenay Footman) writes: >I have just read Jo Clayton's latest book, Drinker of Souls, which >is published by DAW. It is excellent, but the typography is a >disaster. 'Thought' for 'though' is a typographical error that >brought my reading to a complete stop while I worked out what was >meant, and there are many other, equally bad errors. It looks like the publishing world has abandoned manual proofreading in favor of word processing and spell checking. These sort of word substitution errors are what I find in things I key in, if one goes back a day or so later and then tries to proofread again. It could be the author, or some paid by the keystroke entry person at the the publisher. If you compare publishers, you can see who still spends money on proofreading, at least on SF. Some houses would probably be just as happy if they could feed a diskette into the printing press and never touch the contents. Now, if only they can upgrade from PC's to Unix, so they can use some of the Writers Workbench software, perhaps things will improve. George Robbins - now working with, but no way officially representing Commodore, Engineering Department uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Apr 86 1108-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #76 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 16 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 76 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Brunner & Chalker & Goldman & King & Laumer & Lem & Lovecraft & O'Donnell & Funny SF (6 msgs) & Authors Who Use Animals & An Author Request & An Answer, Television - The People & The New Twilight Zone ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) Subject: Battle Circle Date: 14 Apr 86 07:32:21 GMT Could whoever posted the recommendation for Piers Anthony's Battle Circle series also post the names (and sequence) of these books, and maybe a short synopsis? Also, are they still in print? Brian Yamauchi yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 15-Apr-1986 0913 From: lionel%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Steve Lionel) Subject: Fencing It's been a while since I've read "The Shockwave Rider", but I distinctly recall on the copyright page a notice where Brunner reserved all rights to the game "Fencing". This probably indicates that it is NOT directly from a previously published game, and should be considered if anyone is thinking of implementing the game for profit. I also recall from discussions in SF-L about 5 years ago that some people considered the description of the game in the book incomplete. To me, it never sounded half as exciting as Brunner made it out to be. Steve Lionel ------------------------------ Date: 0 0 00:00:00 EDT From: Subject: RE: Alive Computers I dont think anyone has remembered Jack Chalker's _Well_World_ series. In it we have two computers of awsome power. Obie is the computer that is the size of a small planetoid and the Well World itself is a single computer. While the Well World is the computer that has created the entire universe, and is the most powerful computer that I have ever seen written of, I do not think it is alive. Obie on the other hand, while being the most powerful computer that humans or any other non-marcotian(sp?) race has built, is Self aware. I dont know if Chalker is trying to get any point across with this. I dont think so, but it does go to say that a super- powerful computer does not *need* to be self aware. Bob Mende Snail: BPO 20187 ARPA : MENDE@AIM.RUTGERS.EDU Piscataway NJ UUCP : topaz!aim!mende 08854 Phone: (201) 878-0602 CMS : rutgers!mende ------------------------------ From: oliveb!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barb Jernigan) Subject: Re: Poll (whoops) Date: 14 Apr 86 21:31:01 GMT Shame on me for posting in a hurry ... before you flamers boot, The Princess Bride is by Wm. Goldman, not Golding. The fingers, they is not what they used to be. For you _Bride_ fans, there is another book out by the immortal S.Morgenstern (at least I got that right ;-), The Silent Gondolier(s). I haven't gotten to it yet, but my husband gives it an ok. Not as good as _Princess Bride_, but a fun read if you want to spend a couple hours (is short). [**+] Again, sorry for the typo. Barb ------------------------------ From: wmartin@brl-smoke.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: Re: Cassette version of "The Mist"? Date: 14 Apr 86 16:08:08 GMT I don't know about a cassette of a "reading" of King's "The Mist", but there was a radio production of the story done as part of the series, "The Cabinet of Dr. Fritz", by the well-known ZBS Studios, which was aired on National Public Radio and will probably come back around again, as those things always do... It was done in a surround-sound binaural format, designed for listening on headphones, and the effects were fairly good. ZBS' stuff is available on cassette; you should be able to get their 800 number from your local NPR-affiliated public radio station. Will ------------------------------ From: stephen@datacube Subject: Warning: Lark's vomit Date: 13 Apr 86 04:05:00 GMT Being a little miffed, I decided to post the following sleazy bit of marketing: I was at my local WaldenBooks today, and saw a new Retief novel, "Retief and the PanGalactic Pageant of Pulchitrude", on the shelf. After purchasing this novel, I discovered the title referred to a relatively poor short story, and the rest was the novel "Retief's Ransom", which I had read already in another anthology currently in print. Careful examination of the outside of the book revealed on the back, towards the bottom, the legend "Plus: the full length novel, Retief's Ransom". No mention is made of this fact on the front cover. The publisher, incidently, is Baen Books. I present this information as a public service, and hope that other netters who come across such tactics will post them here soonest. Stephen Watkins UUCP: ihnp4!datacube!stephen Datacube Inc.; 4 Dearborn Rd.; Peabody, Ma. 01960; 617-535-6644 ------------------------------ From: dupuy@garfield.columbia.edu (Alex Dupuy) Subject: Re: Re: alive computers Date: 14 Apr 86 23:40:39 GMT putnam@kbsvax.UUCP (jefu) writes: >Several years ago (around 1980) the New Yorker published a short >story by Stanislaw Lem about artificially intelligent critters >'living' inside a computer and musing about their creator. The story is called "Non Serviam", and can be found in Lem's book "A Perfect Vacuum" a collection of reviews of non-existent books. The story, and the book, are excellent, and I recommend both highly. I remember seeing the New Yorker version, but can't remember the issue; however, I read it first in December of 1981, so it would predate that by a few months. alex ------------------------------ Date: Mon 14 Apr 86 16:57:34-EST From: AD0R@TB.CC.CMU.EDU Subject: Lovecraft / Necrinomicon I've seen a book toted as the Necronomicon in the backs of magazines for sale for $50 in a leather-bound, gilt edition. It didn't mention HPL at all. It just promised riches and loose women and such. Kind of hilarious, actually. They showed a picture of it, and I think it had a pentagram on the cover. I've been told that the psuedo-necronomicons being sold are random collections of Sumerian myths. Anthony A. Datri Carnegie Mellon University, a subsidary of IBM ad0r@tb.cc.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon 14 Apr 86 13:46:13-PST From: Robert Pratt Subject: Intelligent computers and networks A book that I'm surprised no one has mentioned {or I missed it} is Oracle, by Kevin O'Donnell. I really quite enjoyed it. It has a network of experts on almost every topic known tied together, who answer questions for a price. I don't know if the network control program was aware or not, but from what I remember it could very well have been. Bob P. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 86 12:20:32 PST From: chuq%plaid@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re:I Want FUNNY f & sf Cc: bolotin@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU > Here's one I haven't seen on the net before: > > Any recommendations for genuinely humorous fantasy or science > fiction books? One of my favorites is "The Colour of Magic" by > Terry Pratchett (sp?). I'd really like to find more in the same > vein. It's been covered, but not for a while -- always a welcome subject with me, though.... The first book I think of is "The Flying Sorcerers" by Larry Niven and David ("I don't look like a Tribble!") Gerrold. It basically reads like someone got the two of them stoned and locked them in a room with a typewriter. Most of the Callahan's Bar series by Spider Robinson has a LOT of humor in it, usually edged with a fair amount of pathos in the stories themselves as Spider likes to take a serious look at life while making jokes around the edge. Not recommended if you hate puns. There are two books out currently ("Callahan's Crosstime Saloon" and "Time Travellers Carry Cash") with a third volume (title forgotten, but I saw the cover this weekend at Other Change of Hobbit and its cute!) due out in July. Randall Garrett has written a number of funny things. His Lord Darcy series ("Murder and Magic", "Lord Darcy Investigates" and one other that slips my mind) is an alternate history where magic works and physics is ignored. Each story is a Holmesian murder mystery solved by Lord Darcy of His Majesties investigative core and his loyal sidekick magician. Most of the titles are rather rude puns. A second book, not very well known and probably out of print, is "Take Off!" in which Garrett has written pastiches of most major SF authors and their works in the style of the author themselves. I lost my copy a while back (anyone know where I can get another????) but it was VERY funny. The Myth Adventure books by Robert Asprin are sidesplitting. there are seven or eight now, the latest being "Little Myth Marker." Each one has the word Myth in the title. I know I'm missing some works, but those come to mind offhand. Should be a good start! chuq ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 86 17:10:48 est From: Antonio Leal Subject: Humorous SF request Ah, humorous SF; I love the stuff. Pity there isn't much of it going around. Some that I read: Next of Kin, by Eric Frank Russel. Some scenes, especially before "the action" starts (a terran scout behind enemy lines, in an interstellar war), are really good enough to make you laugh out loud. "Baloney baffles brains". Master of Space and Time, by Rudi Rucker. Not as funny as the cover blurb says, but acceptable. (assorted short stories), by Frederic Brown. Sometimes humor, sometimes horror, but I like Fred Brown. Watch out for Eric Frank Russel's books. They are being reprinted this year. Note that "Wasp", by EFR, was already reprinted. The plot idea is vaguely similar to "Next of Kin", but it's a different story (not so funny, still a good read). Tony abl@ohm.ece.cmu.edu ECE Dept, Carnegie-Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA 15213 ------------------------------ From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 10 Apr 86 23:20:38 GMT In small doses, I like Harry Harrison's STAINLESS STEEL RAT books for humorous sf, and Robert Asprin's MYTHADVENTURES books for humorous fantasy. (It was said in this group that the series had taken a downturn with the most recent volume, LITTLE MYTH MARKER; I haven't read it yet so I can't really say.) pH ------------------------------ From: apollo!johnf@caip.rutgers.edu (John Francis) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 14 Apr 86 22:19:04 GMT >Oh and a recent one by Jack Chalker called something like "And the >devil....". I don't rember the title off hand but it had Asmodues >as a drunk and had Communist Gnomes. That's "And the Devil Will Drag You Under" - I second this suggestion. I also agree with the recommendations for Asprin's MythAdventures and The Compleat Enchanter by L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt. You may also like "The Incredible Umbrella" by Marvin Kaye, and "The Goblin Reservation" by Clifford Simak. Another good author to try would be Robert Sheckley, especially "Mindswap" or "Dimension of Miracles". ------------------------------ From: gladys!bob@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob White) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 14 Apr 86 23:30:02 GMT Try Keith Laumer's _Retief_ "series" of books. They are written with tongue firmly in cheek. Bob White : ihnp4!burl!gladys!bob 5123 Ramillie Run : Winston-Salem, NC 27106 ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 15 Apr 86 20:58:22 EST From: sclafani (michael sclafani) @ a.psy.cmu.edu Subject: funny SF I can't believe that Dark Star has been left off the list. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 86 01:06 EST From: C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: animals animals animals I'm working on the topic of intelligent animals and how they've been handled by different authors. I'd be interested in seeing who's your favorite 'animal handler' and why. All with thoughts toward a comparison article in the future. c78kck@irishmvs ------------------------------ Date: 0 0 00:00:00 EDT From: Subject: Who wrote this Short Story? I have a question. I was describing the following story to a friend of mine and I said that I thought it was written by someone, but I could not remember who. I read it at least 5-10 years ago. It is real short, so I will post it. If you do know who wrote it please reply... When man first built the first univac computer the Engineer gave it a problem to solve. They asked it the meaning of life. The computer blew many a tube on this question and finally came up with the answer, "Insufficient data to answer question." When the computer was first networked across the entire world, two philosphers were having a heated argument about the meaning of life. They decided to ask the network what it thought, even though they would not accept this as truth. The computer said it would have to analyze this question and proceeded to chew up half of the computers resources for a number of weeks. It finally responded that it had searched all known aspects of human life, but there was "Insufficient data to answer the question." Many Years later, the ultimate computer was built. It existed in deep space and could telepathically contact any living person, and one day two young lovers were sitting under the stars, enjoying the moonlight. Their discussion winded to the meaning of life, and like many of their generation. they just asked the computer. The computer, in a split second replied "Insufficient data to answer question." but the two lovers would not take this for an answer. So they told the computer to try until it could answer the question. For many many years the computer thought about the question and gave all of its free time to it. And one day, the computer had the answer! So it swept out telepathically to tell the entire human race of its wonderful discovery. But there was no one left. The entire human race had died many years before when the sun had exploded. The computer had orders to inform humans of the answer to this question. So the telepathic thoughts of the computer swept out covering much of the universe. There was only darkness. And the computer said "Let there be light." And there was light, and it was good ... Bob Mende Snail: BPO 20187 ARPA : MENDE@AIM.RUTGERS.EDU Piscataway NJ UUCP : topaz!aim!mende 08854 Phone: (201) 878-0602 CMS : rutgers!mende ------------------------------ From: uwvax!derek@caip.rutgers.edu (Derek Zahn) Subject: Re: Who wrote this Short Story? Date: 15 Apr 86 17:48:00 GMT Isaac Asimov. ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: The People (TV movie) Date: 14 Apr 86 09:16:07 GMT > From: well!farren (Mike Farren) > > Still... it was directed by > Francis Ford Coppola (really!). Not really. Coppola was Executive Producer; John Korty was Director. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ From: apollo!johnf@caip.rutgers.edu (John Francis) Subject: Re: Zelazny story on 4/11 TWILIGHT ZONE Date: 14 Apr 86 17:54:18 GMT That's "The Last Defender of Camelot". I watched this because the opening credits looked good: Story by Roger Zelazny Adapted by George R. R. Martin Starring Jenny Agutter (Remember her in "The Railway Children" ?) I enjoyed it, although it suffered from the usual problem of realizing fantasy in visual media - other peoples visualizations of fantasy never quite match your own imagination. It's a long time since I read the original story, so I can't say how accurate the plot-line was. Did anyone else notice how much Jenny Agutter looks/sounds like a young Diana Rigg? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Apr 86 0914-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #77 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 17 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 77 Today's Topics: Books - Lem & Lovecraft & Sucharitkul & Vinge & Wolfe & Zelazny & Funny SF (3 msgs), Films - Star Trek IV & The Bride, Television - The Twilight Zone & Doctor Who (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Re: alive computers Date: 14 Apr 86 14:43:32 GMT putnam@kbsvax.UUCP (jefu) writes: >Several years ago (around 1980) the New Yorker published a short >story by Stanislaw Lem about artificially intelligent critters >'living' inside a computer and musing about their creator. This >description is rather fuzzy as I have not been able to find a copy >of the thing. > >Does anyone have more information? ... Yes. As I pointed out recently, this is a 'review' in Lem's book "A Perfect Vacuum," which is a collection of similar imaginary reviews. It's available in paperback. Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu (A Andrews) Subject: Re: Lovecraft & Necronomicon Date: 14 Apr 86 21:46:23 GMT Indeed, there are both English and Arabic versions that have appeared, both in live//// real advertising and at huxter tables at cons. I've seen the English version; can't verify that the Arabic version is any more coherent. (Wouldn't it be interesting if somehow someone with a time machine slipped one back to ol' HPL in the early 20s or whenever, and that started him into the Cthulu mythos???) arlan ------------------------------ From: reed!ellen@caip.rutgers.edu (Ellen Eades) Subject: Author addresses (Was Somtow Sucharitkul) Date: 14 Apr 86 19:46:48 GMT > On behalf of a friend, I am seeking a current address or phone for > the SF writer Somtow Sucharitkul. Please contact: Carter Scholz / > 2665 Virginia / Berkeley CA 94709 / (415) 548-3654 > {hplabs|dual}!well!csz I do not know Somtow's address (somewhere in Virginia, I believe) though I know people who do. My reservation about inquiring on behalf of your friend is that I wonder about your friend's motivations. If simply fen-mailing, can communicate c/o the publisher. I think authors, particularly those as busy as Somtow, deserve to maintain a private life. If your friend wants him to guest at a con, that can also be arranged c/o the publisher. Fenmail addressed to authors at home has been known to be used for landfill, for reasons I must admit I understand, if not sympathize with... Ellen Eades ------------------------------ From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: bobbles Date: 14 Apr 86 18:44:51 GMT > One strategy occurred to me, but apparently not to the author. > Since bobbles can't be bobbled, can't one protect oneself from > embobblement by keeping a small bobble in one's pocket at all > times? It wouldn't prevent decapitation, but it should have > defended against the long-range embobblements, right? Uh... this strategy *did* occur to the author. I'm not sure how you could have missed it, since in several places people are trying to out-scheme each other in defensive bobble placement. For the most part, it was decided that carrying a defensive bobble in your pocket was counterproductive, since it would (as you point out) cause your opponent to resort to partial embobblement, and total embobblement is preferable, onaccounta it's not nearly so fatal. In case readers are puzzled by the references to "bobbles", I highly recommend getting and reading _The_Peace_War_. Very nicely done, I thought, but then I like all of Vinge's stuff, some particular favorites being _The_Witling_ and _True_Names_. I'm eagerly awaiting _Marooned_In_Real_Time_ also. (Hope you folks forgive slipping a mini book list in here... I just think that Vinge is largely unappreciated.) Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 16 Apr 1986 01:53:47-PST From: roberts%forty2.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: BotNS words Can anyone enlighten me on the meaning/derivation of the words Wolfe uses for Urth's currency. One in particular I'd like to find out more about is "orichalk". Nigel Roberts ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_adsk@caip.rutgers.edu (David S Kerven) Subject: Re: Chronicles of Amber Date: 15 Apr 86 15:05:45 GMT > The correct order for the books is: > > Nine Princes in Amber > The Guns of Avalon > The Sign of the Unicorn > The Hand of Oberon > The Courts of Chaos > > And of course, the first book of the news series is: > > The Trumps of Doom The next book in the series is titled: Ghostwheel If anyone knows when this will be published please let me know. David S. Kerven ARPANET:ins_adsk%jhunix.BITNET@wiscvm.ARPA BITNET :ins_adsk@jhunix G47I6929@jhuvm CSNET :ins_adsk@jhunix.CSNET USENET :seismo!umcp-cs!jhunix!ins_adsk allegra!hopkins!jhunix!ins_adsk ------------------------------ From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 15 Apr 86 11:07:06 GMT bolotin@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU writes: >Any recommendations for genuinely humorous fantasy or science >fiction books? Well, some of my favorites haven't been mentioned. What about: (1) The Absolute at Large, Karel Kapek. (2) The Butterfly Kid, Chester Anderson. (3) The High Crusade (3 Hearts & 3 Lions) Poul Anderson. (4) Lewis Carroll, of course. (5) Star Well, Alexi Panshin (1st of series). (6) Thorne Smith can be funny at times. (7) Martian Go Home by Fred Brown was sort of funny. (8) Bored of the Rings if you like parody. (9) Tzadick of the Seven Wonders by Habilum was OK. He has another humorous novel whose name I forgot. Henry Knutter had some funny stuff. People have mentioned Eric Frank Russell, I like "The Great Explosion" in particular. Someone mentioned L. Ron Hubbard, I believe he did the thing about someone trapped in a friend's bad historical novel, because said friend decided to "put him in". The Hoka stuff and the Enchanter stuff has also been mentioned, good laughs here. I don't think there are many solid yucks in the Myth series nor in "The Flying Sorcerers". Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_atnn@caip.rutgers.edu (Thuan N Nguyen) Subject: More Humorous SF Date: 15 Apr 86 16:42:06 GMT Personally, I find the works of William Tenn to be as humorous as the stuff by Spider Robinson, Douglas Adams, and the other authors mentioned. Tenn stopped writing satirical s-f about 10 or 15 years ago (too bad...). The works still in print are Of Men and Monsters The Seven Sexes The Square Root of Man The Wooden Star If you're lucky, you might find old copies of these The Human Angle Of All Possible Worlds Most of the stories poke fun at our society. One of my favorite is "The Party of the Two Parts". An intelligent alien amoeba is sought by Galactic police for selling pornography. The good stuff turns out to be pictures of mitosis which he sold to a biology teacher on Earth. The writing is good. Really.... Thuan Nguyen ------------------------------ From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 15 Apr 86 11:37:20 GMT I forgot James Thurber, as in "Thirteen Clocks" and "The Wonderful O". More updates to follow, probably. Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 86 13:39 PST From: DDYER@SCRC-RIVERSIDE.ARPA Subject: Star Trek IV "From the horses mouth" This week's Hour 25 featured Harlan Ellison interviewing Walter Koenig on the general topic of life, the universe, and everything including Star Trek IV. Although he was very coy about any plot details, he did admit that the story starts 3 months after ST-III and involves time travel. Their vehicle is the Bird of Prey. Apparently the traditional cast are all in it. There was also considerable discussion of William Shatner's almost non-presence, due to excessive demands. The word is he'll be directing ST-V, assuming there is one. P.S. and plug: Listners in Southern California should check out Hour 25, even if you'd previously tasted and rejected it. Harlan Ellison has been acting as Co-host, and is exploiting his connections and expertise to generate high quality interviews. 90.7 FM Fridays, 10PM to midnight. ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: THE BRIDE Date: 12 Apr 86 20:27:25 GMT THE BRIDE A film review by Mark R. Leeper Capsule review: Two decidedly unusual people have some surprisingly usual adventures. This continuation of BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN has a visual beauty but desperately needs an infusion of imagination. I missed THE BRIDE when it was originally released in the theaters so I had to wait for it to come out on cassette. I have loved horror films all my life and from about seven or eight years old I have been a Frankenstein film fan. So it pretty much goes without saying that I was looking forward to seeing THE BRIDE and seeing what a modern filmmaker would do with a story derived from the old Universal horror films. The premise of THE BRIDE was that it was something between a remake and a sequel to BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN (1935). The first sequence of THE BRIDE is, in fact, a remake of the last sequence of BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN. The bride is brought to life only to be repulsed by her intended mate. The Monster, rejected even by another monstrosity, destroys the laboratory with a pyrotechnic flare. But this time around the monster, the bride, and the creator all live. That is the end of the first film, but just the first sequence of THE BRIDE. It is, however, the end of the Frankenstein movie in THE BRIDE. What remains is a bit of regency romance, a bit of melodrama, and a disappointingly dull film. The story flashes back and forth from the bride's story to the monster's. There is little in the film from that point on that requires the monster to be anything but a large victim of mental retardation, not unlike Lenny from OF MICE AND MEN. The bride's unusual origins are little more relevant to her story, that of her guardian (Dr. Frankenstein) who secretly lusts for his beautiful ward (the bride). Sting is actually a good choice for playing Dr. Frankenstein, who should have youth and a touch of insanity. He is well cast as Charles Frankenstein (Charles???). Now I bet you thought his name was Victor (or, if one followed the Universal horror films, Henry). Actually, in this film Victor is the monster's name! In the book, of course, the monster's name was Adam. He isn't called Adam here, but the bride is called Eva. In the book she was not around long enough to have a name. That's a pity. If her name had been Charles or maybe Charlotte there would have been a nice symmetry with the film. Anyway, the first sequence is worth seeing. Beyond that the film's lack of imagination will make you hanker for the old Boris Karloff days. THE BRIDE shows that with the means to make more imaginative films, some filmmakers are still making less imaginative films. Rate it a 0 on the -4 to +4 scale. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: gardner@rochester.ARPA (Paul Gardner) Subject: Name these TZ episodes Date: 15 Apr 86 20:26:53 GMT Does anyone have a listing of the titles (with or without synopsis) of the new Twilight Zone episodes? In particular I'd like to know the titles of the episodes described below: The Kennedy episode. A historian from the future visits Dallas in 1963 to witness an assassination. He saves the President and hell breaks loose in the form of a disrupted time line. The Time Train episode. A Yuppie couple awakes in their house a few hours in the future except it's still under construction! Faceless blue/purple workmen are busy building time. The supervisor explains that the seconds of time are like the boxcars of a train. Thanks in advance. Paul C. Gardner UUCP: ..!{allegra,seismo,decvax,cmcl2}!rochester!gardner [Moderator's Note: There is a Twilight Zone Episode guide written by yours truly available for anyone who wants it. The file is T:Twilight-zone.guide and is available *only* via the ANONYMOUS login of FTP. This file does not contain any of the stories from the new show.] ------------------------------ From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton) Subject: Re: British SF TV Date: 12 Apr 86 03:41:45 GMT >>>> The series was created by Terry Nation, who also created Dr. Who. >>>Correction. Terry Nation created the first monsters in Dr. Who, >>Dr.Who was Verity Lambert's creation. The BBC assigned Mervyn >>Pinfield to be her assistant producer. > >WRONG. Verity Lambert was the first producer of Doctor (not DR. ) >Who. She was definitely not the creator althought she was the >guiding force . The creator (can't remember his name) originally >worked for ITV. He brought up the idea of Doctor Who to them and >then laughed at him. Eventually he got a very important job in the >BBC where he again raised the idea of Doctor Who. The BBC gave the >show a chance and the rest is history. The man you are looking for is Sydney Newman. He came up with the original concept: "My original ideas was to have an irascible, absent-minded, unpredictable old man, running away from his own planet in a time machine which looked like a police box on the outside but was in fact a large space station inside, and which he really didn't know how to operate, so he was always ending up in the wrong place and time. We called him Doctor Who because no one new who he was, where he came from, what he was running away from, and where he was headed." "An Unearthly Child", which fleshed out the character of the Doctor, was written by Anthony Coburn. Oddly enough, Sydney Newman was born here (Canada) and Anthony Coburn was born in Australia. So the great English SF series was actually the product of two foreign creators. Verity Lambert (the producer) was trained in the USA, too! (Perhaps this is why we got to see Hartnell in this country (almost) at the same time as England, while the USA waited a decade or so.) Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 86 00:32:22 CST From: William LeFebvre Subject: Re: Doctor Who's creator My reference is Peter Haining's book "Doctor Who: A Celebration". The second chapter is entitled "How we created Doctor Who" and is authored by Verity Lambert. In this chapter, Lambert states that Sydney Newman was indeed the main instigator, and Verity was the first producer. Donald Wilson also had quite a bit to do with the birth of the program(me), but it was apparent to Lambert (from Wilson's reactions) that the "impetus came from Sydney." Another interesting bit of history, Verity Lambert was working at ABC as a production assistant when Sydney Newman called with the job offer. In fact, before he went to work for the BBC, Newman was the head of drama at ABC and (I presume) worked with Lambert. If you are a die-hard Doctor Who fan, you should seriously consider getting Peter Haining's book. It is expensive, but well worth it. At the very least, borrow a friend's copy for a week or two. William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Apr 86 0814-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #78 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 18 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 78 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Cherryh & Herbert & Lovecraft & May & Shute & Simak & Funny SF (5 msgs) & Alive Computers & SF Poll, Miscellaneous - Copyrights ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jhunix!ins_adjb@caip.rutgers.edu (Daniel Jay Barrett) Subject: Re: Battle Circle Date: 15 Apr 86 17:11:14 GMT > Could whoever posted the recommendation for Piers Anthony's Battle > Circle series also post the names (and sequence) of these books, > and maybe a short synopsis? Also, are they still in print? The books are now in print in a single paperback volume entitled BATTLE CIRCLE. (At least it was in print when I bought it 1 year ago.) I got my copy at an "Encore Books" in Philadelphia; they generally have a good selection of SF&F. The titles of the books are "Sos the Rope", "Var the Stick", and "Neq the Sword." A brief synopsis follows, with NO spoilers. The action takes place in a post-nuclear-holocaust world. The world is divided into two civilizations. First, there are the "regular" types, who live as (what we would consider) barbarians. A man takes his name from the weapon he wields; hence, the titles of the three books. As usual, Piers Anthony's women play a secondary role in the story. However, BATTLE CIRCLE's women are stronger characters than those of his other, more recent novels. The second type of civilization is that of the "crazies". These are the scientist-types, who keep the world functioning while the barbarians run amok. They provide food, weapons, and shelters for the barbarians, who look upon the scientists as "crazy". Who would give away this stuff for free, they ask, if they weren't crazy?? The title of the trilogy, BATTLE CIRCLE, comes from the barbarians' method of settling any disputes between people. 'Nuff said about that. Please understand that this is a BRIEF synopsis of the environment only. No mention was made of the wonderful characters, the spellbinding plot, or the incredible surprises in store for the reader! I hope that you find these books as fantastic as I did; if you would have handed these books to me authorless, I never would have guessed that it was Anthony that wrote them (judging by the latest goings-on in Xanth). Have fun! Dan Barrett ------------------------------ From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: THE KIF STRIKE BACK by C. J. Cherryh (mild spoiler) Date: 14 Apr 86 15:22:17 GMT The jacket reads: "Chanur's Revenge. Kif Power. Hani Pride... When the kif seized Hilfy and Tully, hani and human crew of "The Pride of Chanur", they issued a challenge Pyanfar, captain of "Pride", couldn't ignore, a challenge that was to take Pyanfar and her shipmates to Mkks station and into a deadly confrontation between kif, hani, mahendo'sat, and human. And what began as a simple rescue attempt soon blossomed into a dangerous game of interstellar politics, where today's ally could become tomorrow's executioner, and where methane breathers became volatile wild cards playing for stakes no oxy breather could even begin to understand..." Sound confusing? It is, even if you've read CHANUR'S VENTURE, the book that precedes this one. It is sometimes the case that the middle book of a trilogy is weak, and this book is very weak. The action takes place over the course of a handful of days, and during the entire time the crew is exhausted. Midway through the book the reader is exhausted too. The dialogue is very often in broken English; this is done to indicate that the speaker doesn't fluently speak the hearer's language (which isn't English anyway), but it grates on one's nerves after a while. The story is very hard to follow. I had read the first book of the series and also THE PRIDE OF CHANUR, which deals with some of the same characters but is not directly involved with the trilogy, and I still had lots of problems trying to figure out the politics. There's no preface or afterward that summarizes what has happened up to this point, so if you haven't read CHANUR'S VENTURE, this book will thoroughly confuse you. There are other problems with the story too. There's a lot of posturing and verbal confrontation, but very little real action until the end. And some of the conflicts, between Hilfy and Pyanfar, for instance, repeat themselves a number of times and are never resolved. I hate it when one of my favorite authors writes a dull book, but I can only give this book 2.0 stars (fair). Duane Morse ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ From: sjuvax!iannucci@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: alive computers (Herbert) Date: 14 Apr 86 14:38:16 GMT >Allow me to plug my other favourite Herbert book here. I would >highly recommend WHIPPING STAR. It is an interesting study of >communication with a totally alien race. It's fun to watch the >Caleban try to express itself in English. It used the best words it >could to try to communicate concepts that English had no words for. Hear hear! It's good to know that someone else besides myself has read Herbert's other works. I quite agree about WHIPPING STAR -- it is definitely among the most *WEIRD* science fiction that I have ever read. To give a quick preview: A huge metal "beach ball" is discovered lying (where else?) near the beach on some planet or other. It is the manifestation of a star (flaming ball of gas type), the race of which are known as Calebans. The beach ball, which can communicate telepathically with humans, is found to be seriously injured as a result of the sadistic tendencies of a particularly evil woman. Jorj X. McKie, of the Bureau of Sabotage, must find the woman and stop her to save the Caleban's life. If this sounds crazy, wait till you read it. Its sequel, equally good if not better, is also one that I would highly recommend: THE DOSADI EXPERIMENT. Dave Iannucci@St. Joseph's University, Philadelphia [40 00' N 75 15' W] {{ihnp4|ucbvax}!allegra|{psuvax1}!burdvax|astrovax}!sjuvax!iannucci ------------------------------ From: entropy!martin@caip.rutgers.edu (Don Martin) Subject: Re: Lovecraft & Necronomicon Date: 16 Apr 86 06:58:20 GMT chandros@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Chandros) writes: > Oh Boy. You people sure missed the boat entirely. H.P. Lovecraft > INVENTED THE NECRONOMICON!!!! IT DOESN'T REALLY EXIST!!!!!!!! If > you read any of the Lovecraft letters to his buddies (or the > preface to his stories), he says that he invented the > Necronomicon. What is so funny While I agree that Lovecraft made up the book, this has not made it nonexistent. I own one copy and failed to by another completely different edition because I didn't have $35 to spare. The latter was advertised in the Antiquarian Bookman, as an aside. Lovecraft's references to it have created a demand. You can either publish new Necronomicons or try to identify various older books as this book. Both are reasonably possible and amusing. A few clever alterations in a old foreign language book are all that is required. Thus the fictional start of this book does not preclude finding copies. Of course it is possible that Lovecraft is wrong and that he only thinks that he made it up. There are many cases where an author has forgotten his source. Donald C. Martin, phone (206) 543 1044 SC-32, Dept. of Biostatistics., U. of Wash, Seattle WA, 98195 {decvax,ihnp4,ucbvax!lbl-csam}!uw-beaver!entropy!martin 1 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 86 12:06:40 est From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Pliocene hooks (SPOILER WARNING) I would argue that THE ADVERSARY at least disentangles most of the problems set up by the previous three books; there are potential hooks because there was so much happening that some "solutions" left room for further development (e.g., Mark and Elizabeth empowering the Duat---I suspect May lacks Cherryh's taste for aliens and so won't ever write this, but at least it got rid of someone who would otherwise have finished the destruction of the Pliocene society). At the end of THE ADVERSARY, May says that her next work will be (3 books?) about the Metapsychic Rebellion that caused Mark etc. to flee to the Pliocene, and explain how St. Jack the Bodiless and Diamond Mask got their names. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 86 12:19:55 est From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: COBRA and ?predecessor? I haven't read COBRA, but I'm wondering from the several descriptions whether Zahn has read Nevil Shute's CHEQUERBOARD. The basis of the book is a man who is suffering (effectively) a slow-motion stroke caused by unextracted shrapnel tracking the three people who were in prison hospital with him and finding what happened to them after World War II. One of the three had been a commando trainee up on a murder charge---he was attacked by a drunkard twice his size and broke the man's back with a maneuver he'd been taught but never used in combat. He was defended by a commando officer who argued that the training was more at fault than he was, and received a relatively mild sentence. ------------------------------ From: drivax!holloway@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: Clifford Simak (long) Date: 15 Apr 86 19:21:27 GMT Thanks for posting the interview with Clifford Simak. One of my favorite writers, years ago. Anyone remember "I Trade with You my Mind"? ....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 86 09:34 CST From: Brett Slocum Subject: Funny SF & F My recommendations for funny SF & F are : (incomplete list) High Crusade by Poul Anderson Schroedinger's Cat (I-III) by Robert Anton Wilson (sort of HHGTTG-like) Out of Their Minds by Clifford Simak > You might want to read Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat series. Though it's not written to be humorous it is interlaced with humor. These stories are most certainly meant to be funny. I strongly recommend them for humor. The Devil Will Drag You Under by Jack Chalker is the book that someone couldn't remember the whole title of. The Fallible Fiend by L. Sprague deCamp - great fantasy humor. The Taran series by Lloyd Alexander - Very witty Thomas Covenant - Oops, just kidding. Oh well that's all for now. Brett Slocum --(Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 86 12:01:16 est From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: humor in SF OPERATION CHAOS is no more humorous than any other of Anderson's works--- i.e., he uses humor to break the tension, or has characters joke to show they aren't really afraid (it's less uncouth than spitting). Lem's THE CYBERIAD is a book that I found incredibly funny, although it's not to everyone's taste. Some parts are (probably deliberately) orthogonal to most SF (e.g., a poetry-writing computer spews out an epic beginning "Arms and machine I sing, that tossed by fate/And haughty homo's unrelating hate/ Exiled, _________, left the Terran shore . . .); much is like Douglas Adams (dragons are probabilistic: rather than getting .01 dragon, you get .01 likelihood that the dragon is here rather than there). I liked it even though I find most of Lem boring. (TALES OF PIRX THE PILOT is an attempt to be humorous that I found deadly dull---I suspect there's some Eastern European /ethnic point of view I'm missing.) ------------------------------ From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 16 Apr 86 20:53:56 GMT I liked _Rails Across the Galaxy_, by Offutt & Lyon, which appeared as a serial in Analog starting in Aug 1982. (And ending in the Mid-Sep issue, which (alas) has vanished from my collection.) I should also mention the special spoof issue of Mid-Dec 1984 (why did they move the 13th month around?), much of which had me rolling on the floor. My other favorites have already been mentioned by other respondents. Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh) ------------------------------ From: scifi@ukc.ac.uk (I.L.Sewell) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 16 Apr 86 10:39:10 GMT How about "Who Goes Here ? " by Ian Watson. It is a really good take off of Starship Troopers I think and is not known well enough. Nor is Ian Watson for that matter. Ian Sewell ------------------------------ From: drivax!holloway@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 15 Apr 86 19:27:03 GMT If you're going to mention "Samurai Cat", then you HAVE to talk about "Time Beavers", too. ....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ From: drutx!slb@caip.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden) Subject: Re: alive computers Date: 13 Apr 86 22:37:31 GMT I don't notice anyone mentioning "The Computer Connection" by Alfred Bester. I read this quite awhile ago and remember enjoying it...but that was before I was into computers at all, so it's accuracy is in doubt. I remember it as a very weird book. Sue Brezden ihnp4!drutx!slb ------------------------------ Date: Wed 16 Apr 86 14:51:17-EST From: Scott Schneider Subject: SF-POLL > All Time Favorite: THE MARTIAN CHRONICLES by Ray Bradbury > Favorite author: Robert Heinlein, Alfred Bester, Keith Laumer. Phillip K. Dick is getting there as I read more of his work. > Hardest to put down: Tough - since I read almost everything in a day or two but... THE STAND by Stephen King - every time I pick it up to look at on section I find myself rereading the whole thing (500+ pages). Anything by Alfred Bester, especially GOLEM 100. Most anything by Heinlein -- what a storyteller !! > Best with computers: THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS. Hon. Mention : I, ROBOT (I.A. deals with A.I.) SHOCKWAVE RIDER by John Brunner. > Most interesting/unusual: VALIS by Philip K. Dick. Hon. Mention: UBIK by same > Best series: THE LORD OF THE RINGS > Best written: SLAUGHTERHOUSE 5 by Kurt Vonnegut Jr. THE MARTIAN CHRONICLES THE LORD OF THE RINGS > Other books: SIRENS OF TITAN and CAT'S CRADLE by Vonnegut CRY, THE POLICEMAN SAID and DO ANDROIDS DREAM...? by PKD NIGHT OF DELUSIONS by Keith Laumer THE FOREVER WAR by Joe Haldeman RIDDLEY WALKER by I forgot who (mainstream novel) STAND ON ZANZIBAR by John Brunner CAVES OF STEEL and PEBBLE IN THE SKY by Isaac Asimov Most OverRated: THE DISPOSSESSED by Ursula LeGuin Most Disappointing: DUNE MESSIAH, CHILDREN OF DUNE, etc... Best Sequel: 2010 -- I though the *book* was a far better novel than the original. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 86 12:14:10 est From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: copyright (effect on editions) The 1970's revision of US copyright law apparently didn't disentangle some of the strange things that happened when English SF was published in the US. You've probably seen all the Brunner reissues (mostly from Ace) ---these were originally cut to fit a short book or half a Double, and it's arguable whether the cutting hurt (Brunner will flame at the slightest provocation over people who've edited his work without his consent, but I haven't seen him crowing over these restorations). But there still is no uncut American edition of Wyndham's THE TROUBLE WITH LICHEN, and I was told by the manager of the Penguin outlet in Cambridge MA (first in US, although there are several exclusively-Penguin bookstores in UK) that there may still be contractual constraints preventing them from selling Wyndham in this country. It's a real pity, because without those ~10 pages the book is a bit like chili con carne with no chili. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 21 Apr 86 0901-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #79 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 21 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 79 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Asprin & Brooks & Chalker & Tolkien & Live Computers & Sf Poll & Funny SF (4 msgs) & Story Request & An Old Request Answered, Television - Buck Rogers & The People ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thursday, 17 Apr 1986 14:13:23-PST From: winalski%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Paul S. Winalski) Subject: BATTLE CIRCLE Regarding the query about Piers Anthony's BATTLE CIRCLE stories in SFL V11 # 76: Three short novels compose the BATTLE CIRCLE series. They have been collected into a single volume titled BATTLE CIRCLE. The individual stories are: Var the Stick Sos the Rope Neq the Sword The stories are set in a post-nuclear-war world. The civilization that we know of has collapsed, and is replaced by a loose tribal organization based on combat. Social status is determined by ritual combat in the Battle Circle (hence the name of the series). Men are known by a one-syllable name, suffixed with their weapon of proficiency. Hence, Var the Stick is a stick- fighter named Var, etc. To avoid a spoiler warning, I won't say anything more, except to recommend the books. Anthony has come up with several quite imaginative alternate societies here. They make entertaining, moderate (not too light or too heavy) reading. PSW ------------------------------ From: randvax!rohn@caip.rutgers.edu (Laurinda Rohn) Subject: Re: Thieve's World Date: 14 Apr 86 16:40:02 GMT Ken Hill (khill@ti-csl) writes: >There are actually 6 (at my last count) collections of stories now >out about TW. These are available from the SF Book Club as two >hardback volumes, and some paperbacks are still around, at least of >the more recent volumes. Also, Lynn(?) Abbey, a co-editor for some >of the volumes, has, I believe, written 1 or more novels, etc. Ken is correct about the hardback versions of the first six books, but there are at least eight in the series. The last two, "The Dead of Winter" and "Soul of the City" (I think), have come out just recently. There is a novel out called (I think the title is "Beyond Sanctuary") by Janet Morris. I really enjoyed most of the first six books. However, I've been disappointed in the last two, and I really didn't like Morris' novel much at all. They (the collective authors, that is) seem to be leaning more heavily on the "magical" characters (Ischade, Roxane, et. al.) and stories at the expense of the other characters. In general, though, I'd recommend the books. Enjoyable reading. Lauri rohn@rand-unix.ARPA ..ihnp4!sdcrdcf!randvax!rohn ------------------------------ From: drivax!holloway@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Terry Brooks new novel -- "Magic Kingdom for sale -- Sold!" Date: 15 Apr 86 16:57:51 GMT Mini-review of Terry Brooks new novel -- "Magic Kingdom for Sale -- Sold!" A highly successful lawyer looking for a change in life after his wife dies sees a magic kingdom advertised in a department store catalog for a cool million buckerinos. He bites and tries to prove himself worthy to rule the true-to-life fairy tale kingdom. Sounds like a nice plot, right? What would you put in a fairy tale kingdom? Dragons? Fair princesses to be rescued? Court magicians? Evil demons? Ugly witches? Brave Knights? Fairies? Large stone castles? Ominous forests? You've got it. Terry Brooks tries to fit these all-too traditional elements into a story about guilt, honor, and commitment. But it really flops. Instead, it sounds like the novelization of a computer adventure game, with our hero running around trying to solve the myriad puzzles that occur. When he arrives in the kingdom, he finds that he's not the first person to attempt to rule the kingdom -- he turns out to be the 20th. So the people don't pay much attention to the new king on the block. He tries to prove himself worthy, but when he attempts to enlist the Lords' help, they tell him to defeat a dragon first. So he goes to the fairy woods for aid, and they agree, but only if he'll stop the lords from building on their land. The Evil Witch tells him that she can stop the dragon, but only if he'll enter the realm of Faerie, from which no-one has returned. Etcetera. Somebody once wrote of Richard Adam's "Maia", "This is not a book to be set aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force." It seems appropriate. The "Shannara" series were fairly weak and predictable fantasy works, and this is even worse. ....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ From: bucsb!boreas@caip.rutgers.edu (Mad Tickle Monster) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 18 Apr 86 06:01:53 GMT >Oh and a recent one by Jack Chalker called something like "And the >devil....". I don't rember the title off hand but it had Asmodues >as a drunk and had Communist Gnomes. [etc.] It's been about a year since I read _And_The_Devil_Will_Drag_You_Under_, but I sure don't remember any commie gnomes in it. Also, the book didn't strike me as attempting to be humorous, really. It was, however, pretty good (the only one of Chalker's novels I've liked). Michael Justice bitnet: cscj0ac@bostonu UUCP: ...!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas CSNET: boreas@bucsb%bu-cs.csnet ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 86 14:40:35 PST From: raoul@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA Subject: Tolkien Since we're on the subject of Tolkien did anyone notice the LOTR scene where Gandalf and company are about to enter through the mountains of Moria. They come to a door set into the mountain with elvish script adorning it. The script translated says in effect "Say the elvish word for friend, mellon, to enter". Gandalf was hard pressed to discover this fact and there were wolves very near the company that were tracking them. Legolas, the elf, was part of the company at this point but he never gave a word of help. I never figured out why. Any ideas? This seems to be a hole in the plot. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 86 11:26:43 PST (Thursday) Subject: Re: more on live computers From: Richardson.EIS@Xerox.COM >I wouldn't call this an intelligent computer -- Peersa was a human >mind copied onto a computer, apparently one that could emulate a >human mind. Does this qualify as a self-aware computer? I >wouldn't think so. I'm interested in replies though. In "Time Enough for Love" there was an organic body with the personality from a self-aware computer. If this "object" was a person then the "object" in "A World Out of Time" qualifies as a self-aware computer. Another was to look at this is the "program" was developed on another "host" and transfered to the target machine. The end result is a "program" running on inorganic hardware which is self aware. Rich ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 86 09:54 CST From: Brett Slocum Subject: SF Poll I'll give this poll a shot. My only problem is picking one in each category, so bear with me. I also added a few categories. Best Novel (SF) : Canticle for Liebowitz - Miller, Mote in God's Eye - Niven & Pournelle, Lord of Light - Zelazny, Dune - Herbert, Fahrenheit 451 - Bradbury, Dreamsnake - McIntyre Best Novel (Fantasy) : Mists of Avalon - Bradley, LOTR - Tolkien Best Short Story : The Star - Clarke, And There Shall Come Soft Rains Bradbury, NightFall - Asimov (is this a short or a novella) Best Author (Novel) : Heinlein, Asimov, Zelazny, Vonnegut, Dick, Bradley Best Author (Short Story) : Bradbury Best Series (SF) : Foundation Series - Asimov, Darkover - Bradley (well, Science Fantasy, really) Best Series (Fantasy) : Camber - Kurtz, EarthSea - LeGuin, Amber - Zelazny, (Crystal Caves, Hollow Hills, etc.) - Stewart, Pern - McCaffrey, Mabigonian - Evangeline Walton, Fafhrd & Grey Mouser - Leiber Best Series (Juvenile) : Taran series - Alexander, Wrinkle in Time, et al. - L'Engle Best (Computers) : Moon is a Harsh Mistress - Heinlein Best written : First Chronicles of Thomas Covenant - Donaldson Best Star Trek Novel : The Final Reflection - Ford Most Unusual : Stranger in a Strange Land - Heinlein, Cat's Cradle - Vonnegut, Flamesong - MAR Barker, The Man Who Folded Himself - Gerrold, Null-A Series - Van Vogt Funniest - Cat's Cradle, Any Stainless Steel Rat book - Harrison Hardest to Put Down : Jhereg - Brust, Dune, Mote in God's Eye, Camber series, The Ninja - van Lustbader Other books : The Man in the High Castle - Dick, Gateway - Pohl, Tomoe Gozen - Salmonson, The Weapon Shops of Isher & The Weapon Makers - Van Vogt, Changling & Madwand - Zelazny ------------------------------ From: drivax!holloway@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 15 Apr 86 19:10:44 GMT bolotin@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU writes: >Any recommendations for genuinely humorous fantasy or science >fiction books? One of my favorites is "The Colour of Magic" by >Terry Pratchett (sp?). I'd really like to find more in the same >vein. Terry Pratchett also wrote a book, "Strata", which parodied Larry Niven's "Ringworld" and "Ringworld Engineers" so that I'll never be able to read either without laughing. If you're looking for humour, then you've undoubtedly heard about Robert Lynn Asprin's incredibly lame "Myth" series. The comic book, illustrated by Phil Foglio is fantastic -- the books aren't. Of course there's always Douglas Adam's "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" series. Jack Chalker's "River of the Dancing Gods" is a sometimes brilliant sendup of various fantasy books, including Steve Donaldson's "Thomas Covenant" series, and, of course, Tolkien, but a good start turns into a typical Chalker effort soon down the line. Piers Anthony's "Xanth" (or rather, X(a)*n**th) series is good if you like your puns fast and furious. John Norman's "Gor" books are unintentionally funny. For that matter, Lin Carter's "Thongor of Lemuria" series is a scream. I started reading one to my wife, and we couldn't even get through the first page. The Harvard Lampoon's "Bored of the Rings"? ....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 17 Apr 1986 14:23:16-PST From: winalski%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Paul S. Winalski) Subject: Humerous SF I must disagree with the posting in SFL V11 #76 that classified Randall Garrett's Lord Darcy stories as humerous SF. Certainly they are very entertaining, somewhat light reading, but they are cast as serious detective stories in a serious alternate universe. I would NOT lump them in the same category of humerous SF as Spider Robinson's Callahan's Bar stories or STAR SMASHERS OF THE GALAXY RANGERS. Keith Laumer's Retief stories are good humerous SF, especially the earlier ones. Laumer seems to have degenerated to apeing his own style with the later Retief books. Ian Stewart has had a series of stories published in Analog over the past few years featuring a character called Billy the Joat (JOAT is an acronym for "Jack of All Trades"). These are pretty good humerous SF. Analog also published a few stories some years back revolving around a Chinese immigrant businessman named Chap Foey Rider. The first couple of stories concern Chap Foey Rider's accidental discovery of the Galactic civilization, which it turns out is entirely based on laissez-faire (sp?) capitalism, and his exploitation of same. Unfortunately, the later stories have the soapbox-y preaching of conservative social politics completely dominating the humerous elements of the story, which is too bad. The best of the Chap Foey Rider stories compare favorably with the best of the Retief stories. Alas, I do not remember who the author is. PSW ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 17 Apr 1986 09:12:25-PST From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (MARY MAROTTA) Subject: Re: I want FUNNY f & sf No discussion of humorous science fiction can pass without mention of Kurt Vonnegut, Jr, and his pseudonym, Kilgore Trout! ------------------------------ From: bucsb!boreas@caip.rutgers.edu (Mad Tickle Monster) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 18 Apr 86 06:16:11 GMT Another good group of stories to read are some about "Gallagher Plus". I don't remember the author or the titles (sorry), but I've seen about five of these stories in OLD collections (1950's perhaps). They're about a guy who, normally, is pretty normal. When he gets drunk, though, a sort of "second mind" cuts in, which ends up getting him into trouble all around. . . . They're fun. Also, Christopher Stasheff's book, _The_Warlock_in_Spite_of_ Himself_, is excellent! Many humorous sections in it, although it was not meant to be a jokebook by any means. I've heard it was his first novel; if so, I'm amazed. . . . Michael Justice bitnet: cscj0ac@bostonu UUCP: ...!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas CSNET: boreas@bucsb%bu-cs.csnet ------------------------------ From: COBLEY A (on DUNDEE DEC-10) Date: Wednesday, 16-Apr-86 17:52:25-GMT Subject: story search I have been trying to find a story for some time and would appreciate any help. As far as I know the title of the story was 'In the hour of not quite rain ' and appeared in a english (?) magazine in the early to middle 70's.I have no idea of who the author is (or was) but I would like to track down either the magazine title or any collection that it is in. Basically the story tells of a future time when acid rain had reached the state of being nearly pure sulphuric acid and so weather reports became VERY important since shelter had to be gained before the rain came on. The story consists of about 7 sort sections describing the events during one such rain storm , the only one i can remember is of a bunch of youths in a shelter not letting an old man in and watching him melt ( the line 'dance little man dance ' sticks in my head but i may be wrong ). Thanks in advance for any help andy cobley cobley%dundee.micro%dundee@ucl-cs ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 1986 16:36-EST From: sal%brandeis.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA Subject: Re: Who wrote this Short Story? The story sounds like one written by Asimov. I don't happen to remember the title offhand, but I think it is collected in the _Bicentennial_Man_. (I'm not sure about the collection - it's been a while.) Sarah Chodrow USnail: Box 682 CSNET : sal@brandeis Brandeis University UUCP : harpo!sec Waltham, MA 02254 ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 86 16:35:13 PST (Thursday) From: WPHILLIPS.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Buck Rogers > I was watching an episode of Buck Rogers in the 25th Century the >other night and whilst Buck was at the spaceport they called over >the intercom: > >"Captain Christopher Pike please report to Veterans Affairs Office" If you watch Buck Rogers long enough and listen carefully you will find several references to other science fiction characters and authors. In fact in the last episodes of the series there was a character named Commander (?) Asimov. I understand it was intentional for such references to be on each show. Wendel ------------------------------ From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: The People (TV movie) Date: 16 Apr 86 20:53:09 GMT boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes: >> Still... it was directed by Francis Ford Coppola (really!). > >Not really. Coppola was Executive Producer; John Korty was >Director. Oh, well, my imperfection on display again . Still, that's also good news - Korty directed "Twice Upon A Time", one of my all-time fave animated features, shown mostly only on cable. Check it out if you get the chance... Mike Farren uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 21 Apr 86 0926-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #80 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 21 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 80 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Card & Clarke & King & Lovecraft & Palmer & Funny SF (4 msgs) & SF Poll & One-shot Authors & Story Request Answered (2 msgs), Films - Star Trek IV, Miscellaneous - SFL T-Shirts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Apr 86 09:43:27 PST (Fri) From: Phil Jansen Subject: Re: Brust's Jhereg, Yendi, (and soon?) Tekla I really enjoy one twist SKZB uses in these books. In _Jhereg_, Taltos, the narrator, sometimes refers to adventures he has already had with other characters. When I read the prequel _Yendi_, I expected to watch the characters meet, have the adventures, etc. _Yendi_ did that for some of the characters, but revealed more -- it's not the beginning of the story either. How long can he keep it up? When is SKZB going to START writing this series? I like where it ended up -- or is it finished? Phil Jansen ------------------------------ From: gsg!kathy@caip.rutgers.edu (Kathryn Smith) Subject: Re: "Speaker for the Dead" by Orson Scott Card Date: 16 Apr 86 15:24:09 GMT I feel compelled to disagree with the preceeding review of "Speaker for the Dead." I have read all three works involved, the original short story version of "Ender's Game," the complete novel, and "Speaker for the Dead." I enjoyed the short story version of "Ender's Game," but the novel was vastly better. Card succeeds in letting us get inside Ender's head to a remarkable degree. The entire story he creates is internally consistent and believable. He manages to develop the characters so naturally and consistently that we forget they are children until he rubs our noses in it, reminding us that these "soldiers" are only ten years old. It is emotionally a very powerful book. I didn't think "Speaker for the Dead" was quite as good as "Ender's Game," but it is still a fine book. I do not regret that I went out and bought the hardcover edition when it was first printed. (Something I very rarely do). I agree that it doesn't finish the story of the Hive Queen, but I disagree that that is a fault. He has created yet another consistent world for this book, and to try to carry on the Hive Queen's story in the same book would be trying to put far too much into a single volume. Her hatching and how humanity deals with it should be its own story, which I hope will be written someday. These are, of course, strictly my own opinions, and it is distinctly possible that no one else out there on the net will agree with them. However, the same hold for the author of the preceeding review. Don't skip these books because he didn't like them. Read them for yourself. They are well worth the time involved. Personally, I think that "Ender's Game" will become one of the classics, and would not be at all surprised to see it pick up a Hugo at this year's Worldcon. I think it deserves it. Kathryn Smith (...decvax!gsg!kathy) General Systems Group Salem, NH ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1986 10:01:36 EST From: Mike Caplinger Subject: Arthur C. Clarke, SONGS OF DISTANT EARTH Some of you may recall the short movie outline Clarke did for SONGS OF DISTANT EARTH -- it was the only original text in his rip-off trade paperback of a few years back called THE SENTINEL. It was an incredible rehashing of old Clarke short stories and novels ("A Meeting with Medusa", "Songs of Distant Earth", THE FOUNTAINS OF PARADISE, "The Shining Ones", and so on), but it might have made an enjoyable, fairly literate SF movie. (Instead we got 2010 -- but that's another story.) Unfortunately, SONGS OF DISTANT EARTH doesn't cut it as a novel. Clarke's later work seems to suffer from a general lack of plot -- rather telling a coherent story, he writes a series of rather disconnected vignettes. SONGS suffers from this even more than, say, FOUNTAINS OF PARADISE did. Even so, Clarke can write well enough to make this enjoyable, if not spectacular. As for the story line -- comparing this novel with "Songs of Distant Earth" (collected in THE OTHER SIDE OF THE SKY) provides a really interesting view of how Clarke's attitudes, and the world's, have changed since the 50s. The plot, however, is pretty much the same. SONGS doesn't say much that "Songs" didn't say, but the novel is several times longer. Some would call that a problem. By the way, someone was comparing the cover blurb with that for James P. Hogan's VOYAGE FROM YESTERYEAR. Without rendering my opinion of Hogan's work, no, they don't have too much in common, although the two authors are developing a remarkably similar, equally obnoxious, and totally unbelievable view as to what the "ideal society" looks like. But Clarke can still blow Hogan right out of the water with straight narrative prose, his descriptions are light-years away from Hogan's, and his characters, well, neither one of them is going to pick up the Nobel in literature... Mike Caplinger mike@bellcore.arpa ihnp4!bambi!mike ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 86 18:50:55 CST From: C449499%UMCVMB.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Randy Davis) Subject: Stephen King's _The_Mist_ _The_Mist_ is available on cassette tape from: ZBS Productions RR 1 Box 1202 Fort Edward, NY 12828 This is not JUST a reading of the story, but actually acted out. ZBS also has several other SF type series. One of my favorites is _Ruby_. Randy ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 86 08:38:21 PST (Friday) Subject: Re: Lovecraft & Necronomicon (#77) From: Kurt *****Spoiler warning***** ** This note may spoil any interest you have in reading this stuff ** I was rather disappointed with the Necronomicon which has been sold as a paperback, due to the rather obvious rip-off of the Babylonian/Persian Myth cycle. At least they could have stuck with CCD (Cthulhu Cycle Deities, for those not Lumley fans) lore, rather than changing some of the names in a rather ordinary description of Tiamat/Ishtar/Marduk/etc. Kurt ------------------------------ From: bucsb!boreas@caip.rutgers.edu (Mad Tickle Monster) Subject: David R. Palmer Date: 18 Apr 86 22:58:45 GMT Potential spoilers follow; second chance to stop now. They're just comparisons, nothing directly quoted from the books or such. Has there been any discussion of David R. Palmer yet? I'm interested to hear others' impressions of him, having just finished two of his novels (_Emergence_ and _Threshhold_). They seemed like pretty blatant Heinlein xeroxes most of the time (_Threshhold_ read like _Glory_Road_, with a little bit of _Betelgeuse_Bridge_ (I know, Heinlein didn't write it, but it was in a collection he edited) thrown in for fun) (and while I'm at it, _Emergence_'s heroine was very like Heinlein's in _Podkayne_ and _The_Menace_from_Earth_). Michael Justice bitnet: cscj0ac@bostonu UUCP: ...!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas CSNET: boreas@bucsb%bu-cs.csnet ------------------------------ Date: 0 0 00:00:00 CDT From: Subject: Funny F&SF > From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) > [from his list of funny F & SF] > (2) The Butterfly Kid, Chester Anderson. ...and don't forget two related books: The Unicorn Girl by Michael Kurland and The Probability Pad by T.A. (Tom) Waters. Chester, Mike, and (to a lesser extent) Tom all appear as characters in all three books. I found them all to be uproariously funny. > (3) The High Crusade (3 Hearts & 3 Lions) Poul Anderson. Um, these are two decidedly different books! The High Crusade is the story of an extraterrestrial invasion ship which lands in 13th-century England and proceeds to get captured by a local knight, who then goes merrily off through the galaxy. Extremely funny. Three Hearts and Three Lions, while it has some humor, is not primarily a humorous book. It is the story of a man from our world who winds up in a fantasy world as a champion of Law versus Chaos (sounds trite, I know -- but it's *not*. This book is a classic of fantasy. By all means, read it!) marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Fri 18 Apr 86 13:25:04-EST From: Rob Freundlich Subject: More funny SF >Bored of the Rings if you like parody If you're into parody, how about Doon? It was published around the time the Dune movie came out. Paul Mauve-Bib joins the Freedmenmen who harvest the mind-altering substance known as BEER. It's hilarious. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 86 10:34:17 est From: jbvb@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (James B. VanBokkelen) Subject: Re: Humorous SF I note that while someone did mention Stanislaw Lem's _Star Diaries_, none of his other humorous SF got any notice. I found both _The Cyberiad_ and _The Futurological Congress_ extremely funny (although not particularly light-hearted). I also liked _Memoirs Found In A Bathtub_, whose humor is more to the black side. Beware, though, as a friend who takes his physics very seriously did not like _The Cyberiad_, even the story about the constructors vs. the probabalistic dragons... jbvb@AI.AI.MIT.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 86 17:52:46 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Funny SF Up to bat for Diane Duane again. While MY ENEMY,MY ALLY is not a comedy, it is interlaced with humor (to borrow a phrase) all the way through. Notable are Kirk's response to Ael's comment that "Hope is illogical", and the last page or so. THE GALACTIC WHIRLPOOL,by David Gerrold, the creator of tribbles, also includes several humorous sections, including "The MacMurray Encounter," which I hope all Trekkies out there have heard of. If you haven't, then GO BUY THIS BOOK! I hear that John M. Ford, author of THE FINAL REFLECTION, is writing a humorous STAR TREK book called WHO'S COOKING THIS TURKEY?. No details, though. If you are into comics, then look up STAR TREK 24-25, a two-part story by Ms. Duane called "Double Blind". I will not give details, except to say that Kirk again surrenders his ship (the EXCELSIOR), under similar circumstances to the MacMurray encounter. That should do for now..... Garrett Fitzgerald ------------------------------ From: csd2!turchind@caip.rutgers.edu (DiTu) Subject: Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Poll Date: 16 Apr 86 22:24:00 GMT I also did not like PJF's Riverworld series (for other reasons maybe), but I still like the author. I think his best is "world of tiers" pentalogy. My favorite authors are: Jack Vance, R. Zelazny (BTW it was he who wrote "Doorways in the Sand") de Camp, Glen Cook and other ... Dimitri. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 86 10:45:31 est From: jbvb@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (James B. VanBokkelen) Subject: One-shot (?) authors. I have two books (bought a couple of years ago) that I liked, but I haven't seen anything more from their authors. 1) _Wave Rider_ by Hilbert Schenck - a collection of well-written short stories, with what I felt were some of the better characterizations I have seen in short SF in a while, set in interesting situations. They seemed very polished, like he had been thinking about them and re-writing them for years... 2) _The Zen Gun_, by Barrington Bayley - not so well-written, but a very interesting premise for what looks like a space opera at times, and what (even after re-reading) appears to be several very subtle morals... Is it simply my local bookstores, or have both of the authors folded their tents and stolen away? jbvb@AI.AI.MIT.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 18-Apr-1986 1459 From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (From the terminal of Brendan From: E. Boelke) >From: > I have a question. I was describing the following story to a >friend of mine and I said that I thought it was written by someone, >but I could not remember who. I read it at least 5-10 years ago. >It is real short, so I will post it. If you do know who wrote it >please reply... [story line follows] >From: uwvax!derek@caip.rutgers.edu (Derek Zahn) >Isaac Asimov. which is correct. But, this being easily my favorite short story of all time (the impact of the final sentence the first time read is fantastic), I wish to make a brief 'fix' to the synopsis. The question was not "What is the meaning of life", but "How do we stop entropy". The computer (Asimov's infamous MULTIVAC I believe) survived final entropy because, having become so huge, it was 'stored' in hyper-space. This was a great short story for a kid of about 12 or 13 who was just beginning to question the existence of the Catholic God. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 86 17:37:10 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Re:Who wrote this short story? It was by Asimov, yes, but it was rather different. It was called "The Last Question". As man evolved upward, the computers evolved upward, too, until the last computer existed in hyperspace only, and mankind was a single thinking entity. Man, from the time of the early computers (but still in the future), had been asking the question "How can entropy be reversed?" That is, how can the universe be kept from dying? The computer kept working on it, although it had insufficient data. Finally, entropy was at maximum, all mankind had merged with the computer, and it had finally obtained all its data. It worked on the problem until it had solved it, and then it carried out its solution. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 86 18:03:19 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Star Trek IV In this month's issue of STAR TREK (the comic), the editor says something to the effect of "You'll be reading this around the beginning of May, and the shooting for STIV will be wrapping up around the same time." I think the phrase he actually used implied the live shooting, with actors. I wonder if we'll be able to figure out the complete plot before the movie comes out? Garrett Fitzgerald ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 86 18:31:58 est From: James Turner Subject: More t-shirt news Announcing the SF-LOVERS T-Shirt V2.0 The Art: White ink on a dark blue shirt. In the far future, two interstellar travellers relax in front of their terminal, reading the latest SFL Digest; oblivous to the alien menance about to blow them out of the sky. The Artist: Dexter Pratt is a amatuer comic artist, who's work can be seen in The Dragon. The T-Shirt: Haynes Beefy T, available in S, M, L, XL (no women's sizes, sorry). The Grungy Details: No T-shirts have been printed. If you would like one (or more), please send $6.50/shirt (postage included) to the below address by June 1, 1986. After all orders are received, the shirts will be printed and mailed, with most people receving them by the end of June (well in time for Worldcon). Any excess funds will be used to print extra shirts, so future SFL subscribers can get them. No profit will be made by Pipe Dream Associates, or anyone involved in it. The Address: Pipe Dream Associates 329 Ward Street Newton, MA 02159 Be sure to indicate how many of each size you would like. James {harvard|cca|mit-eddie}!lmi-angel!jmturn NOTE: I am *not* the James Turner at Imagen ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 21 Apr 86 1003-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #81 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 21 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 81 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Asprin (2 msgs) & Brust & Clarke & Crowley & Palmer & Sucharitkul & Funny SF (6 msgs) & Author Request, Films - The Stuff ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: loral!dml@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis) Subject: Re: OX, ORN, Omnivore ..... Date: 15 Apr 86 16:07:40 GMT abd1@ur-tut.UUCP ( Al) writes: >I've had these three books for a while now and want to know what >order they should be read in. 1. Omnivore 2. Orn 3. OX Very good series, but be warned -- it starts off weird and gets more so. Interesting philosophy correlating creatures' dietary habits with their dispositions -- herbivore, carnivore, omnivore -- recurs throughout the series. Dave Lewis Loral Instrumentation San Diego {sdcsvax|ihnp4|sdcrdcf}!{gould9|sdcc3|crash}!loral!dml ------------------------------ From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: _Anthonology_ Date: 17 Apr 86 10:40:37 GMT ins_adjb@jhunix.UUCP writes: > Even better than the "Aprentice Adept" and the above books >is Anthony's BATTLE CIRCLE. I found it hard to believe that the >same author that is putting out the latest Xanth books (eugh -- >although I loved the first three) put out a real masterpiece like >BATTLE CIRCLE. It is a 3-books-in-one-volume trilogy. Let's not forget MACROSCOPE. I still reread it all the time, and find more in it every time I do. And it's not even hard to find! Of course, I'm biased as a mathematician; how many SF books can you think of which involve something of actual mathematical interest (the game of Sprouts)? David desJardins ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Apr 86 01:22:44 PST From: pnet01!victoro Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #75\Myth Adventures Carl Greeburg referred to WaRP Graphics as putting out a fine series of adaptions of the 'Myth Adventures' series in comic form. Unfortunetly, the NEW artist of Valentino (of _Normal Man_ fame), which I find to be a very poor substute for Phil. It's too bad he's not staying. (Anyone know of a Phil fan club? Victor O'Rear ------------------------------ From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 16 Apr 86 01:11:37 GMT Unfortunately, as with most good things Phil Foglio has done, this has come to an end. The MythAdventures comic has been handed over to another artist/writer, one Valentino, author of NormalMan. In the WaRP Graphics christmas sampler, they showed some of Valentino's work on a MythAdventures story. It was trite, jarring, muddy, and totally without the charm and humor Phil brought to the story. Phil adapted the entirety of the first book, and in order to do it right, worked closely with Robert Asprin, made some changes to the events and characters that greatly improved the story, and generally increased(!) the humor in the story. If you pick up copies of these books, do NOT believe the editorial where Richard Pini explains that "deadline problems" were the reason for Phil's leaving the book. The truth is, Phil had an agreement with Richard that explicitly forbade any schedule changes without the MUTUAL agreement of both parties. The Pinis violated this contract when they increased the publication frequency from quarterly to bimonthly over Phil's objections, and when he demonstrated that he could not handle that schedule, they refused to revert to the agreed-on publication schedule. It is sad that the Pinis, who used to be interested in making good, high-quality comics, are no longer willing to let others make the sacrifices in schedule that they made for themselves with ElfQuest. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Apr 86 09:43:31 PST From: pnet01!bnw Subject: _Jhereg_ A writer (name forgotten) wrote (of S. Brust's _Jhereg_): >From reading the above, one would think (1) that the jhereg plays > a major role in the book, and (2) that the jhereg is probably an > interesting alien. Both assumptions are false. Number 1 is not false. The conclusion betrays a very superficial reading of the book. I've not re-read _Jhereg_ in weeks, but I recall that Loiosh is Vlad's advisor throughout the novel, that he was of vital importance in the conducting of a witchcraft spell, saved Vlad's life once, prevented the Dragon-Jhereg war from being triggered, and served Vlad as scout, lookout, and messenger. More important, Loiosh, in his interactions with Vlad and with other characters (for instance, Aliera), helps set the tone and character of the novel. Loiosh is loyal, devoted, and has a sharp, acerbic tongue; in this he is not unlike most ventriloquist dummies (forgive me, Loiosh). Number 2 displays a serious misunderstanding. A jhereg is not an alien, but a native life form of Dragaera (or do I mean Adrilankha?). There is a reference to an off-world race, the Jenoine, but they are the only aliens, aside from some speculation that the Easterners might be imported from another planet. I gave _Jhereg_ 4 stars, and _Yendi_ 3.5 stars. Books in that neighborhood get re-read at least once a year, and I wouldn't loan them out on a bet. (Besides, authors make money from sales, not loans.) OH--Did anyone read _Jhereg_ closely enough to spot the set of lines lifted from A. Conan Doyle with only a minor change? Bruce N. Wheelock {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!vista!pnet!pnet01!bnw ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: alive computers Date: 16 Apr 86 15:08:51 GMT I talked to Clarke about 2001 in 1969 and he brought up the HAL/IBM question himself. He said that it was just a surprising coincidence. It doesn't seem to be even that far-fetched a coincidence. Given that it is a totally arbitrary three letter choice, the odds are 1/8788 that it is right or left shifted from any specific other combination. Now if you consider all the other three letter combinations that would have made interesting coincidences, you are still a long way from probable, but it is not all that unlikely either. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: "Favorite SF" Poll Date: 17 Apr 86 11:00:12 GMT alfke@csvax.caltech.edu writes: >Hardest to put down: "Little, Big" by John Crowley I've been meaning to ask about this book, although it's hardly SF. But since you brought it up... I sort of agree with "hardest to put down" (although that applies to everything I read; I can't remember the last book I read in more than two sittings, including this one...), but I didn't end up *liking* the book at all. As I recall (it has been over a year since I read it, and it's not on my shelf any more) the style was great, and I was really into reading it, but as I read I started thinking that it was becoming more and more unlikely that he was going to be able to tie everything together, and make any sense out of it, and in general come up with a satisfying ending. And I was right -- at the end he started pulling things out of his hat, and introducing things that were completely at odds with what I was hoping for, and basically didn't resolve anything to my satisfaction. I hope I've gotten across enough of my feeling that you can respond to it. As I said, I read the book quite a while ago, and my recollections are not crystal clear. Frankly, I recall thinking that part of the reason for my dissatisfaction was my scientific/logical background, and that I was expecting too much in the way of a logical conclusion, but now that a Cal Tech type recommends it, I am not so sure (although you also put down Hogan, who I like, so maybe it is simply a matter of different tastes). I guess what I really want to know is what you saw in this book, and should I read his other book(s), or will I find them more of the same? Did you also find the ending (indeed, as I recall, the last third of the book) dissatisfying? I suppose I should mail this instead of posting, but I would be happy to hear from anyone who has read the book. David desJardins ------------------------------ From: watdragon!smkindersley@caip.rutgers.edu (sumo kindersley) Subject: Somtow Sucharitkul's Inquestor books Date: 4 Apr 86 01:35:51 GMT I recently finished The Darkling Wind by Somtow Sucharitkul. I found it a well written book (meaning style, sentence formation) but it struck me as somewhat obscure, speaking of events, personages, relationships and places that were not at easy to understand, or to fit to my understanding of the story. Now, this is partly my fault, for reading the fourth of the series first!! the 1st 3 books in the series are Light on the Sound, The Throne of Madness, and Utopia Hunters. If anyone out there has read this series in order and can recommend that I try it from the beginning please tell me. I can't imagine comprehending some series books (for instance, the Amber novels) reading the last first, but others I think it wouldn't make too much difference what order I read them (e.g., Narnia series). Thanks, sumo. uucp: {utzoo|decvax|ihnp4|clyde|linus|allegra} !watmath!watdragon!smkindersley csnet: smkindersley%watdragon@waterloo.csnet arpa: smkindersley%watdragon%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_avrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Victoria Rosly D'ull) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 16 Apr 86 22:14:36 GMT bolotin@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU writes: >Any recommendations for genuinely humorous fantasy or science >fiction books? How about Tanith Lee's _Don't Bite the Sun_ and _Drinking Sapphire Wine_? Gorgeously written, a truly odd cultural setting, and *very* funny..... Vicka d'Ull ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 16 Apr 86 14:36:02 GMT Yet another I forgot to mention: Where Were You Last Pluterday?, by Paul (I think) Van Herck Not widely available, but funny and gently strange Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ From: alice!jj@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Humor in SF Date: 16 Apr 86 17:55:37 GMT Well, there are currently six in the "Myth Directions" series. I believe the titles have already been posted, so let me just agree that they are very enjoyable. (but you'd better like puns). Then, there's Jack Chalker's "Dancing Gods" series of books, "River of TDG", "Demons of TDG", and "Vengence of TDG". These books are a quest series, with, um, a Hero named Joe, a Heroine named Marge, and a magic sword named (spoiler omitted). The mastermind is "Throckmorton P Ruddygore" which some of you may recognize from another place. The books are certainly humorous, although fantasy and NOT SF. "The Devil Will Drag You Under" is also a Chalker fantasy that is quite humorous. Chalker has a way of putting ordinary mortals in the most unusual places. None of the Chalker books are a "deep read", but they do entertain. (ihnp4;allegra;research)!alice!jj ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Apr 86 19:12 CET From: Subject: funny SF I'd recommend the following books resp. short stories: Ashtaru the terrible by Poul Anderson (fantasy) Sam,of de Pluterdag (Fraturday,Sam) by Paul van Herck The spiteful Planet by Shinichi Hoshi (collection of short stories) Michael Maisack Tuebingen,Germany PSST001 at DTUZDV1 in BITNET Acknowledge-To: ------------------------------ From: rlgvax!oz@caip.rutgers.edu (THE GREAT AND POWERFUL OZ) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 18 Apr 86 12:22:37 GMT Another book that I would recommend is THE WARLOCK IN SPITE OF HIMSELF by Christopher Stasheff. Stasheff is NOT a very good SF writer, but he is a GREAT story teller. By this I mean I find the plots in his books have holes that you can drive a Mac Truck trough, but I have had such fun reading them that it doesn't matter. Anyway, you may want to check it out. OZ seismo!rlgvax!oz ------------------------------ From: slu70!guy@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 14 Apr 86 18:36:38 GMT My all time favorite is "The Butterfly Kid" (author forgotten) although post sixties-generation types may find it a bit dated. Harry Harrison also wrote a couple : "Bill the Galactic Hero" and "The Technicolor Time Machine". ------------------------------ From: decuac!avolio@caip.rutgers.edu (Frederick M. Avolio) Subject: Author of Well of Souls books? Date: 18 Apr 86 17:52:07 GMT Please, can anyone give me the name of the author of the 'Well of Souls' books. Also, titles and opinions of them? Thanks. If you would, send mail to me and I will summarize to the net. Fred @ DEC Ultrix Applications Center INET: avolio@decuac.DEC.COM UUCP: {decvax,seismo,cbosgd}!decuac!avolio ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: THE STUFF Date: 17 Apr 86 22:55:42 GMT THE STUFF A film review by Mark R. Leeper Capsule review: We all know junk food doesn't do you much good. In THE STUFF it proves downright dangerous. Larry Cohen does a horror film with a light touch and several good characters. Don't expect too much, but do try to see it. My brother's dog is afraid of his water dish. He goes near it only when driven by thirst. Now that seems funny at first brush, but it is and on and effective sort of paranoia that makes one afraid of the innocent things around us. You get no sympathy--it is hard to believe the fear yourself. Filmmaker Larry Cohen likes to turn innocent things into monsters. His IT'S ALIVE was about a deadly mutated baby who does things like attacking milk trucks. Well, Mr. Cohen has apparently been listening to those ads where the yogurt company tells you its product has live yogurt cultures. he has invented for this film a delightful new food product that tastes terrific and has more than just live cultures. The Stuff is sold everywhere and is more popular than ice cream. What's in THE STUFF? Well, it has a little INVASION OF THE BODY SNATCHERS, a bit of THE BLOB, a dollop of QUATERMASS II, and a smidge of FOOD OF THE GODS. The story has the ice cream interests hiring industrial saboteur Michael Moriarty to investigate the new product replacing ice cream as America's favorite. Moriarty discovers the new food has a more sinister side than just pushing down ice cream sales. Along the way he runs into a fictional version of Famous Amos and a Lyndon-LaRouche-like megalomaniac with his own private army. What makes THE STUFF work is not so much the plot but its off-beat view of American society. Cohen has supplied his film with a complete ad campaign for his junk food including celebrity testimonials much like Jack Shea did for THE MONITORS. In fact, there are a surprising number of familiar faces in the film. Besides main characters Michael Moriarty and Andrea Marcovicci, the film also features Paul Scorvino, Garrett Morris, Danny Aielho, Alexander Scourby, and Patrick O'Neil. The special effects, mostly from THE BLOB school, are done by a number of people including two apprentices of Ray Harryhausen: David Allen (whose best-known creation to date has been the Pillsbury Doughboy, but who has occasionally done film work) and Jim Danforth (who did effects for films like WHEN DINOSAURS RULED THE EARTH and some of the effects of FLESH GORDON. I don't tend to like tongue-in-cheek films, but this film provided at least three characters I enjoyed and had a light enjoyable touch. Rate it a +2 on the -4 to +4 scale. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Apr 86 0838-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #82 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 22 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 82 Today's Topics: Books - Clarke & Llewellyn & McKiernan & Tolkien & Wolfe & SF Poll (3 msgs) & Funny SF (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pur-phy!dub@caip.rutgers.edu (Dwight) Subject: New A. C. Clarke novel - review request Date: 17 Apr 86 22:51:58 GMT I noticed the other day that Arthur C. Clarke has a new novel out (sorry, I forget the name). After reading the short blurb on the back cover I was amazed at how similar to James Hogan's Voyage From Yesteryear the plot seemed to be. Has anyone read this new book and would care to review it? Is it, indeed, like Yesteryear? Is it better? Personally, I think that Yesteryear is Hogan's most interesting novel. Dwight Bartholomew UUCP:{ihnp4,decvax,seismo,inuxc,sequent,uiucdcs }|\ {decwrl,hplabs,icase,psuvax1,siemens,ucbvax}\ !pur-ee!pur-phy!galileo!dub ------------------------------ From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: FUGITIVE IN TRANSIT by Edward Llewellyn (mild spoiler) Date: 6 Apr 86 15:48:46 GMT The jacket reads: "When Peter Ward saw the lone woman standing in the ruins of an obscure temple on a remote Greek island and singing Sappho in the original Aeolic Greek, he may have thought her a goddess, but he would never even have imagined her true identity. For Ruth Thalia Adams was a singular entity. Although she appeared as a beautiful athletic young woman, no one was even sure of her species. And "Alia" as she was called by the Galactic Transit Authorities had more mysteries than just her species. No one on Earth knew what it was she had done, but to the Auld Galactic Marshall, she was the most dangerous individual in the spiral arm and had to be caught. He had chased her through several hundred worlds to no avail, but now he had her cornered -- for Earth was the end of the line!" An accurate description, but there's more of interest. For example, the location for the story is Earth in the near future. Aulds are beings from another planet who, to some extent, are in charge of supplying electrical power to the population of Earth. This doesn't win them much goodwill because they are reluctant to share their advanced technology, and they refuse to allow Terrans to travel in the galaxy. The story follows a number of beings: Thalia and Peter, of course, the Auld Marshall, and Dr. Bose, who first encountered the Auld. Another important player appears later in the book. The relationship between Dr. Bose and the Marshall is interesting. Some of the doctor's human characteristics rub off on the Marshall, for instance. Things move along fairly quickly; I never found myself bored, though the author has a funny habit of interrupting the story to give a 2-page thumbnail sketch of a character when he first appears. I enjoyed learning about the galactic culture, and all of the characters were appealing in their own ways. I couldn't predict what would happen from one moment to the next, and I didn't guess Thalia's identity. And the ending was a real surprise. I enjoyed the book quite a lot and give it 3.0 stars (very good) out of 4. Duane Morse ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!markb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar) Subject: Re: Brooks/McKiernan Date: 18 Apr 86 16:53:33 GMT The rumor I heard about McKiernan's Iron Tower Trilogy is that it was suppose to be a sequel to The Lord of The Rings but the publisher made him change all the names because they couldn't get permission from JRRT's estate. Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: the inscription upon the West-gate of Moria (was Re: Subject: Tolkien) Date: 19 Apr 86 03:01:17 GMT raoul@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA writes: >... Gandalf and company are about to enter through the mountains of >Moria. They come to a door set into the mountain with elfish >script adorning it. The script translated says in effect "Say the >elfish word for friend, mellon, to enter". ... Legolas, the elf, >was part of the company at this point but he never gave a word of >help. The reason is simple. The text upon the doors was `pedo mellon a minno'. This translates equally well into both `Say ``friend'' and enter' and `Speak, friend, and enter': `pedo' is the imperative form of the root `ped' `to speak', and the sentence could well be commanding friends to speak out loud in order to enter. This was Gandalf's original mis-translation; and it sufficed to mislead everyone. I dare say I would have been fooled too. Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1415) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: BotNS words Date: 19 Apr 86 17:15:39 GMT >From: roberts%forty2.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM >Can anyone enlighten me on the meaning/derivation of the words >Wolfe uses for Urth's currency. One in particular I'd like to find >out more about is "orichalk". The easiest way to find out about Urthian words is to get a copy of "The Castle of the Otter", a book by Gene Wolfe about TBotNS. It has an entire chapter devoted to the vocabulary, as well as other chapters talking about how the book came to be, etc. (One chapter is the fave jokes of each character, told by the character!). Originally available from Zeisling Bros., now out of print and expensive, but also available from Science Fiction Book Club for about $6.50 or so. Mike Farren uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667 ------------------------------ From: jimb@ism780 Subject: Another SF Poll entry Date: 17 Apr 86 06:32:00 GMT All right, I finally will succumb to the SF poll. Reluctantly, because I find it difficult to give non-complex answers to simple questions. All-Time Favorite SF: LORD OF LIGHT (Zelazny) Runners-up: (in no particular order) SHADOW OF THE TORTURER (Wolfe) THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS (Heinlein) RINGWORLD (Niven) TO YOUR SCATTERED BODIES GO (Farmer) (with a special "hiss" for the fourth volume in the series, THE MAGIC LABYRINTH.) STAND ON ZANZIBAR (Brunner) STARTIDE RISING (Brin) THE LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS (LeGuin) THE DISPOSSESED (LeGuin) TRUE NAMES (Vinge) THE WITCHES OF KARRES (Schmitz) THE FOUNDATION TRILOGY (Asimov) (with "boos" for the later volumes) THE TACTICS OF MISTAKE (Dickson) All-Time Favorite Fantasy: NINE PRINCES IN AMBER (with exponential decay on the quality of the succeeding books. Sigh.) Runners-up: THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS (Anderson) OPERATION CHAOS (Anderson) A MIDSUMMER'S TEMPEST (Anderson) THE INFERNO (Niven & Pournelle) PEREGRINE PRIMUS (Avram Davidson) BORED OF THE RINGS (National Lampoon) ONCE AND FUTURE KING (White) A WIZARD OF EARTHSEA (LeGuin) THE FACE IN THE FROST (John Bellairs) DRAGONSONG (McCaffrey) (a cut above the rest, which are okay in general, except MORETA, which is TERRIBLE -- mainly because she wrote herself into a corner with a bad end.) Favorite Writer: Roger Zelazny Runners-up: Poul Anderson David Brin Gordon Dickson Ursula LeGuin Larry Niven Gene Wolfe Hardest to Put Down: see favorites. Most Unusual: THE GODS THEMSELVES (Asimov) THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE (Dick) (both are good, even if not favorites) Favorite Series/Cycle: KNOWN SPACE (Niven) EARTHSEA (LeGuin) LOTR (Tolkien) Best Written: SF -- LORD OF LIGHT (Zelazny) FANTASY -- ONCE AND FUTURE KING (White) Runners-up: SHADOW OF THE TORTURER (Wolfe) STARTIDE RISING (Brin) LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS (LeGuin) NINE PRINCES IN AMBER (Zelazny) Most fun: RINGWORLD (Niven) (though RINGWORLD ENGINEERS was one of the most tedious, yet another disappointing sequel) Best short story: (tie) (nearly impossible for me to break) THE GAME OF BLOOD AND DUST (Zelazny) UNICORN VARIATIONS (Zelazny) AND I ONLY AM ESCAPED TO TELL THEE... (Zelazny) SUMMER SOLSTICE (Charles Harness) THE SPECTRE GENERAL (Theodore Cogswell) THE STAR (Clarke) NO TRUCE WITH KINGS (Anderson) FLOWERS FOR ALGERNON (Daniel Keyes) THE HELL-BOUND TRAIN (Robert Bloch) WEYR SEARCH (McCaffrey) (first Pern work) ZEEPSDAY (Dickson) GONNA ROLL THE BONES (Lieber) Works I am most embarrassed about reading/liking: Heinlein & Norton juveniles (but some of Heinlein's are better than many of his adult works) Jim Brunet ihnp4/ima/ism780 hplabs/hao/ico/ism780 sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ism780C/ism780 ------------------------------ From: cisden!john@caip.rutgers.edu (John Woolley) Subject: Poll results Date: 16 Apr 86 17:45:08 GMT Well, here's the summary of answers to my poll. I have reason to believe I lost some mail during a disk failure, so if your answers aren't included, I'm sorry. > 1. Most overrated book. What's the worst SF book you've read >that lots of other people thought was great? Even that won a >Nebula/Hugo? Not much consensus on this one. A couple of people took exception to my dislike for _Childhood's_End_, but one supported me. The winners (?) are: _Childhood's_End_ (Arthur C. Clarke) (2 votes) _Dune_ (Frank Herbert) (1 vote, 2 mentions) Both people mentioning _Dune_ said they thought it was a good book, but overrated. Others receiving votes were: _The_Sword_of_Shannarra_ (Terry Brooks) Anything by Samuel R. Delany _To_Your_Scattered_Bodies_Go_ (Philip Jose Farmer) (1 vote, 1 mention) _Starship_Troopers_ (Robert A. Heinlein) Anything by R.A. MacAvoy "Dragonriders of Pern series" (Anne McCaffrey) (1 vote, 1 mention) _Ringworld_ (Larry Niven) "Amber" series (Roger Zelazny) (1 vote, 1 mention) _The_Dream_Master_ (Roger Zelazny) Also mentioned: Almost all Star Trek novels, including the original James Blish stuff. _They'd_Rather_Be_Right_ (Clifton & Riley) (mentioned as being the worst Hugo winner) Anything by Philip Jose Farmer. Anything by David Gerrold, Alan Dean Foster, Stephen Goldin. _Time_Enough_for_Love_ (Robert A. Heinlein) The sequels to _Dune_ (Frank Herbert) (2 mentions) Anything by L. Ron Hubbard. "Press Enter" (story by Varley) "Illuminati" series (Robert Anton Wilson) _Where_Late_the_Birds_Sang_ (?) > 2. Most underrated book. Ditto, but this time something you > liked that nobody else seemed to care for much. Even less consensus here (no book mentioned twice), but lots of leads to (maybe) good books. _The_Bug_War_ (Robert Asprin) The Stars My Destination (Bester) _A_Fall_of_Moondust_ (Arthur C. Clarke) _Triton_ (Samuel Delany) _The_Black_Cloud_ (Fred Hoyle) "Dancers At The End of Time" trilogy (Michael Moorcock) _Inferno_ (Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle) The three Anthony Villiers adventures -- _Masque_World_, _The_Thurb_Revolution_, and _Star_Well_ (Alexei Panshin) _Pavane_ (Keith Roberts) _Dying_Inside_ (Robert Siverberg) _The_Demon_Princes_ (Jack Vance) [actually 5 books] "The Butterfly Kid" and "The Absolute at Large" (?) Two books were mentioned that I thought had been generally considered good: _Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land_ (Robert A. Heinlein) _The_Dispossessed_ (Ursula K. LeGuin) (I'd have to agree that _The_Dispossesed_ has gotten less attention in recent years than its quality really deserves.) > 3. Worst writer that manages to stay fairly popular in the field. > You know, that guy that has a great following but you can't choke > him down? The big winner, with 5.25 votes, is John "Librarian Of Gor" Norman, followed closely by Frank Herbert (2.5 votes). Edgar Rice Burroughs (2.25 votes) Others recieving votes were: Isaac Asimov (1.5 votes) J. G. Ballard (.25 votes) Gordon R. Dickson (.5 votes) George "Piglet" Effinger (.25 votes) Robert L. Forward (1 vote) Robert A. Heinlein (1.5 votes) Damon Knight (.25 votes) Barry Malzberg (.25 votes) Andre Norton (.25 votes) Jules Verne (.25 votes) > 4. Book you're most ashamed to admit you like. (Answers > anonymous of course.) [One respondent said he calls these "guilty > pleasures".] No fewer than 5 (!) people gave their nod to The "Lensman" series (E. E. Smith). (I guess I've got to try these.) Others mentioned: The "Scorpio" series (Alan Burt Akers) _The_Sword_of_Shannarra_ (Terry Brooks) The Commander Grimes stories (A. Bertram Chandler) _Fear_ (L. Ron Hubbard) The "Elric" series (Michael Moorcock) (2 votes) _Footfall_ (Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle) Most books by A. E. Van Vogt _To_Die_In_Italbar_ (Roger Zelazny) The Thieves' World series. ------------------------------ From: hamachi@KIM.BERKELEY.EDU (Gordon Hamachi) Subject: STOP! ENOUGH! Date: 18 Apr 86 04:55:10 GMT It is excruciatingly unenlightening to read everyone's all time favorite list of books ... IF all you are going to do is list their titles. If you must broadcast your preferences to the world, please try to shed a little more light on your opinions. Otherwise, if I simply want to look at titles, I can always go to the bookstore! ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 14 Apr 86 16:58:53 GMT The funniest science fiction book I have ever read was Heinlein's _Stranger_ in_a_Strange_Land_. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ From: pete@stc.co.uk Subject: Re: Humorous SF request Date: 17 Apr 86 12:14:44 GMT Don't forget `The Witches of Karres' by James Schmitz (sp?). Not quite belly-laugh stuff, but a continuous high level of amusement throughout. Of course, there's always the `Lensman' books . . . Peter Kendell ...!mcvax!ukc!stc!pete ------------------------------ From: daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 18 Apr 86 15:10:08 GMT How about the "Stainless Steel Rat" Series by Harry Harrison? Or, by the same author, "Star Smashers Of The Galaxy Rangers" - a very funny parody of E.E. (Doc) Smith type books, especially the "Skylark" series ("They looked at one another and smiled, knowing she was just a simple hysterical woman..."); and "Bill The Galactic Hero" - sideswipes at Heinlein, the "Foundation" books etc. There's also a book called "Sleeping Planet" by William Burkett (Jr?) - similar to E.F. Russell's "Next Of Kin" which I've seen mentioned. Other than that, I agree with all the others I've seen mentioned, especially "Bored Of The Rings"... "He would have slain him then, but pity stayed his hand." "Pity I've run out of bullets", thought Frodo... David Allsopp ------------------------------ From: jimb@ism780 Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 17 Apr 86 05:53:00 GMT Sorry, I haven't read "The Colour of Magic," so I don't know if these are in the same vein, but they ARE funny, at least to me. PEREGRINE PRIMUS, Avram Davidson BORED OF THE RINGS, National Lampoon various Hoka stories, Poul Anderson & Gordon Dickson (the early ones are best, the later ones seem forced) Jim Brunet ihnp4/ima/ism780 hplabs/hao/ico/ism780 sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ism780C/ism780 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Apr 86 0900-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #83 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 22 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 83 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Card & Cherryh & Heinlein & Hogan & Pohl & Robinson & Vinge & Funny SF (6 msgs), Films - The Quiet Earth, Miscellaneous - Author Addresses ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cad!grady@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven Grady) Subject: With a Tangled Skein Date: 18 Apr 86 20:36:54 GMT I finally saw With_A_Tangled_Skein, by Piers Anthony, the third in the Incarnations of Immortality series (this one dealing with Fate) in a bookstore the other day. I then checked some libraries, and although they all had it, all of the copies were checked out.. Has anyone read it yet? How does it compare to the first two? Steven ------------------------------ From: mcnc!bnrrtp@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley T. Chow) Subject: Re: Ender's Game Date: 19 Apr 86 03:24:10 GMT Speaking of _Ender's Game_ and Orson Scott-Card, do yourself a favor, read it. It's probably the best SF novel I've read in quite awhile. Its gonna win the Hugo this year. Also, while you're at the con, definitely catch Orson's "Secular Humanist Revival Meeting", I hear it's going to be the last time he does it, and it's an experience you don't want to miss. Jay Denebeim the known world|mcnc!rti-sel!ethos!jay ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Apr 86 23:40:42 est From: jbvb@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (James B. VanBokkelen) Subject: Re: _The Kif Strike Back_ I disagree with the recent review of Cherryh's TKSB, as follows: 1. Synopsis/ending - at least in the DAW paperback edition, there is an "author's note" at the end, detailing that this is "the middle" of something that is only being published as a trilogy because the industry requires that. I am reading them in order, others should also, but in the DAW paperback the fact that it is related to the other books is mentioned in a prominent synopsis immediately following the star map. If anyone wants to argue the resolved conflicts/clean ending issue any more, I suggest they get the author's viewpoint from the "note". I expect Cherryh will clean up the business between Pyanfar and Hilfy in the next volume, and the only thing I ask is that they get it out ASAP (promised 1/87). 2. Dialect - I find that Cherryh's dialect dialogue resembles real events much more than the carefully sanitized Queen's English some other authors use. It is certainly more original than using pseudo-cockney wherever communication gets fuzzy. I *do* find that I have to go back and re-read some scenes to be sure (for instance, Tully's political revelations), but I don't mind, and anyway a *lot* of what the trilogy is about is communications problems. It is a thread that is found in several of her other books as well, particularly _Voyager in Night_ and _Hunter of Worlds_. I liked the book a lot, and I note with keen interest that the author is framing up a *big* universe, with potentially 13 or more races in contact (*** mild spoiler warning ***) - this book explicitly unites the Hani's region with that described in _Downbelow Station_, _Merchanter's Luck_ and _40,000 in Gehenna_. _Serpent's Reach_ and _Port Eternity_ come later, also in human space. _Hunter of Worlds_ is probably connected, but I'm not sure exactly where. jbvb@AI.AI.MIT.EDU James B. VanBokkelen ------------------------------ From: mcnc!bnrrtp@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley T. Chow) Subject: Re: Heinlein's latest (Spoiler) Date: 19 Apr 86 01:13:17 GMT anich@puff.UUCP (Steve Anich) writes: >I must agree. I found the ending quite chaotic and confusing. Did >anyone else who read the book get the impresion that the ending >actually was the killing off of Lazurus, Hazel, and the characters >from his other stories? I don't agree at all. Look at how _Time_Enough_for_Love ended. The situations were quite similar. LL was left bleeding to death in a foxhole in that one. As I'm a guest on this machine, (I don't even know if my name is going to be right) and my normal machine doesn't get this news group. Please reply by mail to jay@ethos (the known world!mcnc!rti-sel!ethos!jay) Jay Denebeim ------------------------------ From: bacall!iketani@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Alive Computers Date: 19 Apr 86 03:23:23 GMT Another good book dealing with "alive computers" is James P. Hogan's "The Code of the Lifemaker", hardback version June 1983, paperback version in June 1984, published by Ballantine/Del Rey. The first part of the book details the evolutionary path for an alien Von Neumann machine (ie self replicating) that is damaged and crashes on Titan. He goes into depth about the development of their robotic genetics and the mutations that allow for robotic evolution. The rest of the book deal with the first contact between the robotic civilization that develops and man. I thought it was very well done. d. todd Iketani ARPANET iketani@USC-ECL.ARPA USENET usc-cse!iketani ------------------------------ From: rayssd!gmp@caip.rutgers.edu (G.M. Paris) Subject: Review: Coming of the Quantum Cats Date: 18 Apr 86 22:54:56 GMT The Coming of the Quantum Cats Frederic Pohl / Bantam Spectra / May 1986 ISBN 0-553-25786-2 If you're like me, you probably pick up books by Frederick Pohl because you've read one or two that you liked (e.g., "Gateway"). Maybe you've picked up a couple (e.g., "Man Plus," "Black Star Rising") that you didn't like too much at all. "The Coming of the Quantum Cats" falls into the second category (bad). The book is about the beginnings of travel between parallel universes. Parallel universes are not new to science fiction, so the reader might expect to find some interesting and/or original ideas to supplement the multiverse supposition, but alas, if there are any, I must have missed them. I found the most interesting part of the book to be the non-standard disclaimer found at the beginning. It warns that some characters are not quite fictional -- the frequent mention of contemporary political figures seemingly an attempt to substitute for interesting plot/dialogue/characters. A plot summary? What little plot there is isn't worth the trouble. What's worse, it all leads up to an ending worthy of nomination as one of the great trivial endings of all time. This book left me feeling as though I had wasted more time reading it than Pohl took to write it. My recommendation: don't buy it, but if you do, read it only if you are bored. If you want to read interesting stories about parallel universes, I suggest you look elsewhere. [Somebody let me know when Pohl writes a good book again. Until then I'm discontinuing my habit of picking up his latest.] Greg Paris {allegra,linus,raybed2,ccice5,brunix}!rayssd!gmp ------------------------------ From: mcnc!bnrrtp@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley T. Chow) Subject: Re: Spider Robinson: a request for information Date: 19 Apr 86 03:53:00 GMT Spider Robinson shows up fairly often on the east coast. Depends on what part of the east coast you're talking about. He lives in Nova Scotia and frequents the cons up there quite a bit. By the way I had the pleasure of meeting him about 10 years ago at Mid-Americon in Kansas City, he's as interesting in person as his books are. I hadn't read any of his stuff at that time, but have since become quite a fan. I seem to remember one panel with Jerry Pournelle and Spider Robinson, needless to say, it got quite lively. Jay Denebeim |mcnc!rti-sel!ethos!jay ------------------------------ From: orstcs!nathan@caip.rutgers.edu (nathan) Subject: Bobbles Date: 17 Apr 86 09:13:00 GMT Re: Bobbles Continuing discussion of an excellent book, "The Peace War" (Vernor Vinge): Vinge peeled all kinds of bananas with this idea. Only with extreme self discipline could a believable story follow one in which bobbles are available to all -- not even Niven could handle this one. Fortunately, our Vernor has self-discipline (he learned it while trying to program in Forth). Carrying a bobble in your pocket is the first thing *anyone* thinks of; certainly, one would expect the Peace command center to contain a few bobbles before the goodguys ever get near it. The next idea is to inject thousands of microscopic bobbles into your bloodstream. Then you only risk losing your hair and your suntan. The problem with these schemes is that then you can't bobble yourself up when someone starts shooting at you, or whatever. Now, my two questions: first, why didn't Wili bobble up Della Lu the first chance he got? second, is the "Bobbler" worse than Star Trek's "Transporter" for demolishing (otherwise) good plots? ("... and what about Mary Lou?") Nathan C. Myers nathan@oregon-state ------------------------------ From: csun!lkw@caip.rutgers.edu (Larry Wake) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 17 Apr 86 23:34:43 GMT > Try the following: ... > Bill the Galactic Hero, by Harry Harrison The title is BIL THE GALACTIC HERO, and it was one of the funniest sf books I'd ever read...is it still in print? I read it back in early high school days, and haven't been able to find a copy since. Larry Wake CSU Northridge Computer Center uucp: {ihnp4 | hplabs | psivax}!csun!lkw BITNET: RETPLKW@CALSTATE ARPA: RETPLKW%CALSTATE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU ------------------------------ From: jimb@ism780 Subject: Re:I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 18 Apr 86 00:38:00 GMT > (3) The High Crusade (3 Hearts & 3 Lions) Poul Anderson. Point -- The High Crusade is NOT the same as Three Hearts and Three Lions. Both are good, and both have elements of humor mixed in. Also see, THE DRAGON AND THE GEORGE, by Gordon Dickson. Jim Brunet ihnp4/ima/ism780 hplabs/hao/ico/ism780 sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ism780C/ism780 ------------------------------ From: jacob@renoir.berkeley.edu (Jacob Butcher) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 19 Apr 86 11:32:14 GMT OK, OK, enough people have posted about those stupid Myth books that I feel safe in taking a stab at this. Frederic Brown tends to be light hearted. Jack Vance has some good light fantasy. I read _The_Eyes_of_the_ Overworld_ and liked it; _The_Dying_Earth_ is supposedly similar. I found _The_Colour_ _of_Magic_ very reminiscent of _Eyes_. Some of his other stuff is also on the silly side. There is a book whose title is something like _The_Incredible_ Umbrella_ which is very similar to the Harold Shea series. Very good. Laumer has a series of books including _The_World_Shuffler_ that are comparable to his Retief stuff. There is a series of stories about an inventor named Gallagher. He has a vain robot; I'm afraid I can't remember the author. In another vein, remember Thiotimoline? j ------------------------------ From: calmasd.CALMA!cjn@caip.rutgers.edu (Cheryl Nemeth) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 17 Apr 86 04:57:10 GMT There is one more book in the "Another Fine Myth" series: Mything Persons. ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 18 Apr 86 17:40:47 GMT Additional funny SF books from European authors: Stanislaw Lem, "The Cyberiad" Stanislaw Lem, "Memoirs Found In A Bathtub" Italo Calvino, "Cosmicomics" The last is not exactly SF, and is probably unclassifiable. Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 18 Apr 86 17:42:14 GMT Additional funny SF books I've recently enjoyed: Jody Scott, "Passing For Human" Rudy Rucker, "Master Of Space And Time" Cheers, BIll Ingogly ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: THE QUIET EARTH Date: 17 Apr 86 22:56:04 GMT THE QUIET EARTH A film review by Mark R. Leeper Capsule review: Last survivors on Earth have to figure out what has happened to everyone else. Some intriguing ideas but the basic plot is old hat. In 1951 Arch Oboler made the film FIVE about a limited number of people who had survived a nuclear war. Every so often Hollywood makes another film about the last handful of people in a post-holocaust world. Notable was THE WORLD, THE FLESH, AND THE DEVIL, a 1958 film with Harry Belafonte and Mel Ferrer as the last people on Earth and of course in a love triangle. The same situation arose in THE LAST WOMAN ON EARTH, a Roger Corman quickie made in 1960. In the '58 film an experimental super-bomb apparently dissolved everyone; in the '60 film something in the air did the same. In a TV movie called WHERE HAVE ALL THE PEOPLE GONE? a solar flare does the honors. Most recently it was New Zealand doing the three-survivor film. THE QUIET EARTH IS A FILM THAT VERY MUCH RESEMBLES THE WORLD, THE FLESH, AND THE DEVIL. Once again we have white man/white woman/black man as the last people on Earth with the two men competing for the affections of the last woman. If this plot had to be done again, at least it was done with quality filmmaking and some style. The characters are better than the 50's stereotypes of the previous film versions. What sets this film apart is the force that de-populated the world. Since the explanation is the most intriguing part of the film I will avoid spoiling it here. I came out of the film saying 1) the cause could not have happened, 2) given that it did happen there could not have been ANY survivors, 3) given that there were survivors what made the difference between who survived and who didn't is absurd, and 4) given that what decides who survives really decides it is an absurd coincidence that someone who could figure out what happened was also a survivor. Dale Skran (who some of you might know) defended the film on all four points. By my figuring he bested me on (1) and (2), tied on (3), and lost on (4). I still think the idea is impossible, but it does bear some thinking about. Suffice it to say this may be a better film that it at first appears to be and deserves a modest +1 on the -4 to +4 scale. I do have a philosophical complaint about the film. One of the characters feels terrible remorse for having worked on a scientific project whose results could have been used for evil. I guess this is a natural outgrowth of a pacifist sentiment growing in New Zealand. My question to the filmmaker would be just how much human progress could have ever taken place without anyone working science that could have been used for evil. Most of my career I worked on a data network that could have been used by a repressive government for keeping tabs on its citizens. The knowledge of how to immunize against smallpox makes it possible to infect your enemies at no risk to yourself. Find ways to increase food production and you find ways to control others with the surplus. No field of scientific research is entirely harmless; it is just that most are less risky than stagnation. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Author addresses (Was Somtow Sucharitkul) Date: 17 Apr 86 18:22:23 GMT ellen@reed.UUCP (Ellen Eades) writes: >...Fenmail addressed to authors at home has been known to be used >for landfill, for reasons I must admit I understand, if not >sympathize with... On the other hand, my experience has been that most authors seem to not mind or even like polite and coherent letters sent with SASE. There is also a publication the name of which I NEVER remember that lists an author's preferred mailing address for all such things -- call your local reference librarian. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Apr 86 0932-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #84 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 23 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 84 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Holdstock & King & Laumer & McKiernan & Pangborn & Simak & Vinge & Wilson & Sister Planet & Anachronisms (2 msgs) & SF Poll & Author Request, Films - Legend, Television - Tripods, Miscellaneous - Using Copyrighted Material & Interesting Fen Stories ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1986 09:00:19-EST From: clapper@NADC Subject: Re: Battle Circle I heartily concur with the Battle Circle recommendations. It's one of the few later Anthony works that doesn't seem to degenerate into silliness. (I found my copy at the B. Dalton bookstore in Philadelphia. They have a pretty good selection - or did when I lived in town.) Brian Clapper ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 86 09:01 EST From: Roz Subject: Mythago Wood I just got back from a 2+ week trip and read the following in Volume 11, Issue 56: >Hot tip: get a copy of MYTHAGO WOOD by ____ Holdstock. Everyone I >heard speak about it gave rave reviews, including the editor who >stuck her neck out to get her House to Publish it. I'm reading it >now and can't put it down. It is excellent....and hard to find. I've meant to write about this book ever since the topic of typos came up. I got my copy from the Science Fiction Book Club. I ALWAYS read the dust jacket of the book before reading the book itself. Mythago Wood has two brothers in it; the jacket talks about the story in terms of the two brothers and their relationship to good and evil. My dust jacket consistently referred to one brother as "good" and the other as "bad"; as a result when I read the book I kept waiting for the brothers to do a personality swap! It never happened...that's the biggest typo I've ever seen! I enjoyed the book, but I had more unanswered questions when I was done than when I started. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 86 10:58 PST From: Dave Platt To: draper@lll-tis-b.ARPA Subject: Steven King on cassette "The Mist" is a production of ZBS Media; it was part of a series of mystery and horror readings that they produced for NPR a couple of years ago. I have seen the cassette, but haven't heard it. From what I understand, "The Mist" is an excellent reading, with music and sound effects recorded using binaural miking techniques... the tape is best listened to via stereo headphones, so that you receive the full (startlingly real) spatial imaging that binaural miking provides. There's apparently one moment at which you can hear a giant spider descending upon you from above... I've heard it's extremely realistic. ZBS has a history of technical excellence in its radio serials and airplays... "The Mist" is reported to be one of their best efforts. The ZBS Foundation RR #1, Box 1201 Fort Edward, New York 12828 (518) 695-6409 I understand that two versions of the tape are available... they have exactly the same material on them, but one is a conventional mass-duplicated tape, and the other is a real-time dubbing on chromium dioxide tape... lower noise level & better sound. A Change of Hobbit (my favorite SF bookstore) in Santa Monica, CA has at least one copy of the audiophile version... (213) GREAT-SF if you're interested. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 86 11:43 PST From: Hank Shiffman Subject: Warning: Lark's vomit >From: stephen@datacube >Being a little miffed, I decided to post the following sleazy bit >of marketing: > >I was at my local WaldenBooks today, and saw a new Retief novel, >"Retief and the PanGalactic Pageant of Pulchitrude", on the shelf. >After purchasing this novel, I discovered the title referred to a >relatively poor short story, and the rest was the novel "Retief's >Ransom", which I had read already in another anthology currently in >print. Careful examination of the outside of the book revealed on >the back, towards the bottom, the legend "Plus: the full length >novel, Retief's Ransom". No mention is made of this fact on the >front cover. The publisher, incidently, is Baen Books. I present >this information as a public service, and hope that other netters >who come across such tactics will post them here soonest. I got caught by this one as well. This is the second time Baen has pulled this stunt with a "new" Retief book. In the previous case, the new story was a bit short, so they filled in with an older Retief story which I had already read. In future, I plan to avoid anything published by Baen. ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: McKiernan Date: 19 Apr 86 09:08:36 GMT markb@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Mark Biggar) writes: >The rumor I heard about McKiernan's Iron Tower Trilogy is that it >was suppose to be a sequel to The Lord of The Rings [....] As I heard it---and this is only a two-person indirection chain so is more likely to be accurrate---the Iron Tower trilogy was written as background information to the original sequel, wherein the Dwarves attempt to retake Moria. It should be interesting! Now if only it will be printed.... Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1415) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1986 09:57:38 EST From: NEVNT%NERVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Vicki Turner) Subject: Edgar Pangborn Is anyone familiar with the works of Edgar Pangborn? (Davy, A Mirror for Observers, Still I Persist in Wondering (short stories) ....) He was a wonderful writer, and unfortunately died in the late Seventies. He also wrote several works of general fiction, one of which I have been trying to locate for 2 years! Does anyone have an extra copy of Pangborn's THE WILDERNESS of SPRING? This particular book is not SF, and was published, I think, in 1957. I have tried to find it everywhere. (Spider Robinson has several copies of it, according to his foreword in Still I Persist...) If anyone is willing to part with a copy, please let me know. I'll take any copy regardless of the shape it's in. Thanks. BITNET: nevnt@nervm INTERNET: nevnt%nervm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ATT: 904-392-2061 USPS: Vicki Turner NorthEast Regional Data Center 107 SSRB Univ. of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 ------------------------------ From: ihuxl!elron@caip.rutgers.edu (Gary F. York) Subject: Re: Clifford Simak Date: 19 Apr 86 19:26:30 GMT > Thanks for posting the interview with Clifford Simak. One of my > favorite writers, years ago. Anyone remember "I Trade with You my > Mind"? Yes indeed! From _Time is the Simplest Thing_. I read it first as a teenager and have reread and enjoyed many times since. While we're on the subject: do you recall the book, another one dealing with time, in which the author incorporates himself as a very minor, not particular appealing, character called "Old Cliff"? Gary York ------------------------------ From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer) Subject: Re: The Peace War Date: 21 Apr 86 16:05:27 GMT hollande@dewey.udel.EDU writes: >The idea of keeping small bobbles around for protection was >certainly covered in the book. ... They developed complex >[bobblers]. OK, the general consensus seems to be that I either read it with my eyes shut, or else the book covered more detail than the serialization. Since I read it twice and don't remember any hint of defensive bobbles, and only a brief mention of the Peace Authority improving their bobbler at all, I'll assume the latter (until someone points out page numbers in the magazine). I thought it was unfortunate (and unlikely) that bobbles couldn't be bobbled, but I guess it was necessary for the story (otherwise the PA could have used multiple concentric bobbles to increase the time-lapse). Too bad; I had this idea that maybe the rebels would be able to bobble the entire earth, possibly with some critical PA resources on the outside where they'd crash before the bobble burst... Naw, it wouldn't work anyway. Oh well. Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Apr 86 22:28:14 PST From: jon@csvax.caltech.edu (Jonathan P. Leech) Subject: F. Paul Wilson Can anyone tell me what F. Paul Wilson has written? I have found only 2 books (_Healer_ and _An_Enemy_Of_The_State) and would like more if they exist. Thanks, Jon Leech (jon@csvax.caltech.edu || ...seismo!cit-vax!jon) Caltech Computer Science Graphics Group ------------------------------ From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: "Sister Planet" Date: 18 Apr 86 13:19:48 GMT "Sister Planet" can be found in: ALL ABOUT VENUS (edited by Brian Aldiss) FAREWELL, FANTASTIC VENUS (edited by Brian Aldiss and Harry Harrison) GET OUT OF MY SKY (edited by Leo Margulies) Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl (or ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl) ------------------------------ From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer) Subject: Re: flying telephone switchboards Date: 21 Apr 86 15:36:39 GMT LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU (Stephen R. Balzac) writes: >Well, how about the guy in "Lost:Fifty Suns" who has an electronic >sliderule? Now that's futuristic for you. I remember a book called "The Brass Dragon" (I think) in which one of the humanoid aliens says to the primitive Terran "Yes, we use sliderules too -- of course they're much more powerful than yours." ------------------------------ From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer) Subject: Re: flying telephone switchboard Date: 21 Apr 86 16:09:13 GMT daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp) writes: >I seem to recall extensive use of slide rules in James Blish's >"Cities In Flight" series, despite The City Fathers being very >large and intelligent computers. I don't remember seeing sliderules, but I was amused by the presence of vacuum tubes in the spindizzies. >I wonder what current sf ideas about computers or future technology >will seem utterly ridiculous fifty years from now..... Practically all of them. Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 86 07:15 EST From: C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: SF Poll First attempts at sf poll: All Time Favorite: LotR;Martian Chronicles Favorite Author: tie: Bradbury; Cordwainer Smith Most Interesting/unusual: Pastel City by M.John Harrison Best Series: Fafred and Grey Mouser/Covenant Trilogy Best Written: Tolkien /Bradbury but a lot of obscure stuff too. Honorable Ballyhoo's: Mindbridge - Haldeman;Some Lensman stuff(a chablis, not a claret); The Shattered World - Will Shetterly (i think, or was that Cats Have No Lord?); Some Anthony, and lots of Herbert! Most over rated: Heinlein,water-bro or no, I don't like his stuff! I'm only holding this title till I find out if he wrote Window in the Sky, which I loved in High School. Favorite Short Story: another one for Obscure Buffs: Ariadne Potts from some early seventies F&sf ish. Hardest to Put Down: LotR/Dune --cost me a grade point average for reading Dune in Chem lab. c78kck@irishmvs ------------------------------ From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer) Subject: Who wrote this? Date: 22 Apr 86 02:05:24 GMT yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu.UUCP writes: >In fact, in one of his short story collections he commented on the >incredible number of people who have read this story, remembered >the plot in detail, but have forgotten the author. Yes, I remember reading that he'd even had a conversation something like this: Caller: Dr. Asimov, there's a story I read once and I think you might have written it but I don't remember exactly how it went. I.A.: I did write it, it's called "The Last Question", and the plot was... Leaving the caller with the impression that Asimov can read minds via phone. I've been tempted to find his phone number and play the following practical joke: K.H.: Dr. Asimov, there's a story I read once and I think you might have written it but I don't remember exactly how it went. I.A.: I did write it, it's called "The Last Question", and the plot was... K.H.: No, that's not it. There was a world with six suns that didn't have any night, until only one sun was in the sky and it was eclipsed. I.A.: Oh. I wrote that one too, the title is "Nightfall"... K.H.: No, that's not it either. Oh, I just found it in my library; it's called "Dawn" and it was written by ________, not you. Sorry to bother you. I wonder how Asimov (supposedly an egomaniac) would react? :-) Btw, while writing the above I tried to find the story so I could fill in the author's name. Unfortunately, it appeared in Analog in 1981, and I didn't subscribe until 1982 (I read the older issues at the library). Does anyone know who wrote this? (Egad, we're almost back to the original query!) Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh) ------------------------------ From: inuxa!rmrin@caip.rutgers.edu (D Rickert) Subject: Legend Date: 19 Apr 86 19:07:00 GMT I caught the last fifteen minutes of "LEGEND" yesterday after enjoying "Sleeping Beauty" for the umpteenth time. It's another fairy tale with unicorns and such so nothing more needs be said about the plot, you either like such things or you don't. The acting was agreeably wooden, not a great loss considering the plot. The sets and makeup were very good, straight out of Fellini at his best. In fact, since I knew nothing of the movie when I slid in the back of the theater, I immediately assumed I was watching an Italian import. It bothered me a lot (for some reason) that what I assumed was dubbed sound had such good lip sync. According to the credits, it is an American/British film with production units in Calf, NY, and London, which I guess explains the good lip synch. Tangerine Dream was credited with some of the music and, in some ways, the movie reminded me of a slick MTV video (but without constant background music). Some Kung Fu was thrown in for lovers of that sort of thing (I'm not, so I can't comment on its quality). All in all, as escapist as "Return to OZ" but on a more adult level (all the kids had come over to see "Sleeping Beauty with me, the audience for "Legends" was all adult). Dick Rickert AT&T CPL Indy, IN ------------------------------ From: ags@pucc-h (Dave Seaman) Subject: Re: The Tripods TV series Date: 20 Apr 86 00:46:27 GMT fitz@ukecc.UUCP (fitz) writes: > I have seen the series you are talking about. I thought it was >rather well made, considering the budget I heard of, and the fact >that the Tripods themselves would be hard to film. I saw most of >the series, and about 9 of the second. (There are three series in >all, one for each book.) I recommend it, but I think one would have >to make judgement only after seeing it, as people's tastes vary. I have seen all of the first and second series, but as far as I know, the third series has not been made. I have even heard rumors that it may never be made. I have to agree that the series is worth watching, even though there is a monumental cliffhanger at the end of the second series which may never be resolved. Dave Seaman pur-ee!pucc-h!ags ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 86 07:15 EST From: C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Copyrighted material In reference/deference to authors, how do you (subjectively) feel about fan art or stories that use 'copyrighted' characters? I've heard the WaRP spiel, but how does the prevailing wind blow in Fandom? c78kck@irishmvs ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 86 07:15 EST From: C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Interesting Fen Stories NEW TOPIC (I hope): interesting fen experiences... My favorite storyies involve finding Card,Orson Scott in the local phone book and then having him autograph it. And getting pinched on an elevator at Inconjuction by Marion Zimmer Bradley.... c78kck@irishmvs ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Apr 86 1005-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #85 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 23 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 85 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Card & Lovecraft & Offutt & Palmer & Tolkien (3 msgs) & Trout (2 msgs) & Wolfe & Zahn (2 msgs) & Alive Computers & Author Correction & Funny SF (4 msgs) & One-shots, Television - Buck Rogers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mpm@hpfcms Subject: Re: OX, ORN, Omnivore ..... Date: 17 Apr 86 06:06:00 GMT Try reading them in this order: Omnivore, Orn, and finally OX. I got the impression that "Omnivore" started as a novel, and later Anthony added the other books. (Given his penchant for trilogies, he probably couldn't stop at two.) The latter books show the "mushroom-type critters" in a more positive light than the first. By the way, the title of the third book is actually: -- OX -- But who can do a good job of it on a terminal screen? Mike McCarthy {ihnp4, ucbvax, hplabs}!hpfcla!mpm ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: With a Tangled Skein Date: 21 Apr 86 14:31:24 GMT I posted a review of "With A Tangled Skein" when it first came out, but here's a quick summary. Practically nothing happens in the book. The ending is *grossly* artificial. The build-up to the ending (i.e. the first part of the book) is limp. The protagonist is characterless. Anthony once more demonstrates his patronizing attitude towards women (which was mostly missing from "On a Pale Horse", but present in "Bearing an Hourglass"). In other words, the book is not worth reading EXCEPT...there is one very nice scene featuring the Incarnation of War taking on all the students in a Karate School. War is an interesting character, which means that the next book in the set may turn out to be worth reading. If it is, you might want to read "With a Tangled Skein" for completeness and background. But this is certainly the weakest book of the series so far. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: Ender's Game Date: 21 Apr 86 02:25:44 GMT jay@ethos (Jay Denebeim) writes: > Speaking of _Ender's Game_ and Orson Scott-Card, do >yourself a favor, read it. It's probably the best SF novel I've >read in quite awhile. Its gonna win the Hugo this year. Also, >while you're at the I HOPE not. It was good, but not that good. But then, my choices often don't win (I wanted _Anubis_ _Gates_ to win, for instance). Maybe we should have our own net.minihugo? Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ucbvax!weyl!gsmith ------------------------------ From: bane@parcvax.Xerox.COM (John R. Bane) Subject: Re: Lovecraft / Necrinomicon Date: 21 Apr 86 05:00:31 GMT It was full of Geiger's artwork (the weird, organic machine look, like he did for "Alien"), which was probably its purpose (it was a while back, so I don't remember if it had stuff like witch's brew formulas, etc. in it.) Rene P S (nee Steiner) Bane bane@parcvax ------------------------------ Date: Mon 21 Apr 86 23:09:19-EST From: Rob Freundlich Subject: andrew j. offutt >I liked _Rails Across the Galaxy_, by Offutt & Lyon, ... Shouldn't it be "offutt" instead of "Offutt" ? I remember reading somewhere that he doesn't capitalize his name. It was in the postscript to a story he wrote, but I can't remember which one. Can anyone help? It was about a girl who lived in a hospital because her father refused to pay the bill for her birth. She eventually becomes legally responsible for herself and pays the bill, but it takes twenty-one years. offutt supposedly based this on an event from his life (also in the postscript), in which he threatened not to pay the bill. Something like that. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 86 09:33 EST From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Palmer vs. Heinlein I've read _Emergence_ and _Threshold_. I liked Emergence quite a bit (though I haven't read enough Heinlein to know about the "xerox" effect; I like what I've read of Heinlein, but everyone else says he's boring, so we'll drop the subject.) but thought Threshold was not nearly as good. Though he has some good ideas for the "new" setting on Isis, his plot falls short (can you say OverDramatic?). I'll give him a chance, though, and read whatever the sequel to _Threshold_ is... nj ------------------------------ Date: Tue 22 Apr 86 07:32:54-CST From: Tim McGrath Subject: Re: Tolkien (Gandalf and the entrance to Moria) To: raoul@JPL-VLSI.ARPA I believe Gandalf's 1st translation was 'Speak, friend, and enter'; he later changed the interpretation to 'Say "friend," and enter'. A substantial difference, at least in English. This didn't bother me; at least, I also had some trouble seeing the obvious while under pressure. As for Legalos, he was a young wood elf, and they have their own elvish dialect. He may only have had a passing acquaintance with the High-Elvish dialect inscribed on the door -- if I remember my dates correctly, that high Elvish script would have been written MILLENIA before Gandalf and company made it there. After all, how many people today still speak Latin as it was used during the time of Christ? Tim (CS.MCGRATH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 86 09:30 EST From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Tolkien (or, There's a Hole in my Plot, dear Liza, dear Liza) Someone asked (in #79 I believe) why Legolas didn't volunteer to help Gandalf with the door. The way I read it is that Gandalf had no trouble translating the Elvish words ("...pedo mellon...") etc. He correctly translated them as "Speak, friend, and enter". No doubt that is how Legolas would have translated them, for there was a distinct ambiguity about the punctuation as presented on the doorway. It was only until later that Gandalf realized that it meant "Speak 'friend' and enter", and again he properly translated it back into Elvish "mellon". (That old use-mention distinction again -- too bad Douglas R. Hofstadter wasn't born into Middle Earth...) nj ------------------------------ Date: Tue 22 Apr 86 11:51:39-EST From: Laurence Brothers Subject: The Mines of Moria The quote is "Speak Friend and enter". Legolas could not be expected to know what this meant, being a wood elf, and besides, a relatively young one. I found that perfectly believable. Besides, Moria was the historic home of the dwarves, I don't remember why the message was in elven, but even a high elf might not know this bit of lore, knowing the dwarves..... Someone out there probably knows the reason the message was in elven without having to go look it up -- so? Laurence ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 86 09:34 EST From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Kilgore Trout Does anyone know who really wrote _Venus_on_the_Half_Shell (purportedly by Kilgore Trout)? It didn't seem like normal Vonnegut style. I heard somewhere it was Philip Jose' Farmer, but I haven't read enough of his works to know (I'm behind on classic sf). nj ------------------------------ From: cernvax!mnl@caip.rutgers.edu (mnl) Subject: Re: I want FUNNY f & sf Date: 20 Apr 86 22:54:50 GMT marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM writes: >No discussion of humorous science fiction can pass without mention >of Kurt Vonnegut, Jr, and his pseudonym, Kilgore Trout! If you are thinking of the book "Venus on the Half Shell", by Kilgore Trout, it was actually written by Phillip Jose Farmer, not Kurt Vonnegut. Funny book, yes. Mark Nelson mnl@cernvax.bitnet or ...!seismo!mcvax!cernvax!mnl ------------------------------ From: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu (Michaelntz) Subject: Re: BotNS words Date: 21 Apr 86 20:46:00 GMT The genius of Wolfe's universe is that his new vocabulary sounds to our ears familiar... Mike Krantz ------------------------------ From: bane@parcvax.Xerox.COM (John R. Bane) Subject: Re: Timothy Zahn Date: 21 Apr 86 04:57:14 GMT Is Timothy Zahn all that good? I've read one book, "Cobra", and thought that it was interesting, but sexist. He TRIES to not be (he mentions the COBRA students as being men and women) but the females are clerks or screaming agents who must be rescued. The cobras you meet are all male. Oh, yes, the main character's mother - for some inexplicable reason, she is ALWAYS in the kitchen, washing the dishes (get this!) by HAND. And this in a technologically advanced society that can produce the Cobras, among other amazing things. Geez! That's as bad as the guy in "Enemy Mine" talking about how his mother was a waitress who gave up her job to get married ... Geez! oh, yes, are his other books (after "Cobra") any better? Rene P S (nee Steiner) Bane bane@parcvax ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 86 07:30 EST From: C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Tim Zahn Speech Excerpt from Tim Zahn GOH speech,CONTRAPTION,April 26th, Southfield Michigan. CLIMBING THE LADDER OF SUCCESS AS A WRITER. STEP ONE: Have a good,secure job so you can earn a living while you learn to write. STEP TWO: Have that secure job knocked out from under you. STEP THREE: Having lost your secure job, find that you're not qualified for another one. STEP FOUR: Decide that "What the heck, I might as well try writing for for a while"-also known as "You can't fire me, I quit!" STEP FIVE: Enlist the moral support of family and friends who believe in you but think you're making a class six mistake. STEP SIX: Set a realistic goal for becoming a writing success... preferably one that allows you to eat once in a while. STEP SEVEN: Make a name for yourself among your readers by writing lots of great stories. STEP EIGHT: When you've got that first novel ready to go,attract the attention of a good agent and a publisher--preferably in that order. ------------------------------ From: mkent@violet.berkeley.edu.berkeley.edu (/violet_d/mkent) Subject: Re: alive computers (Neuromancer!) Date: 19 Apr 86 05:55:10 GMT I haven't seen anyone mention "Neuromancer" by William Gibson. Not only does it feature intelligent computers, it also includes some very interesting characterizations of "human computer interfaces" of the future. I recommend it highly. . . Marty ------------------------------ From: mpm@hpfcms Subject: Re: "Favorite SF" Poll Date: 17 Apr 86 05:59:00 GMT Re: correction on author of Hoka stories Gordon Dickson and POUL ANDERSON (not Carr) wrote the Hoka stories. (I just finished "The Sheriff of Canyon Gulch" or somesuch and enjoyed it immensely.) I don't think Carr ever wrote anything this (intentionally) humorous. (But he sure can edit a mean anthology!) Mike McCarthy {ihnp4, ucbvax, hplabs}!hpfcla!mpm ------------------------------ From: mpm@hpfcms Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 17 Apr 86 06:14:00 GMT I practically cried from a VERY funny satire of the Tom Swift books I read as a kid. In this one, the heroes while being the usual "brains" also happen to be gay lovers, which is "slightly" upsetting to the mandatory "female love interest". Could this be "Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers"? I'm pretty sure the author was Harry Harrison, but I don't think it was "Bill, the Galactic Hero". Anyway, I recommend it highly, along with Piers Anthony's "Prosthro Plus" if you can find it. Mike McCarthy {ihnp4, ucbvax, hplabs}!hpfcla!mpm ------------------------------ From: bane@parcvax.Xerox.COM (John R. Bane) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 21 Apr 86 04:47:59 GMT Oh, boy, no one's mentioned one of my FAVORITE fantasy humour books: "Bridge of Birds" by somebody Hughart, I believe (in the H's, anyway). I loved it! The blurb says something like "A tale of ancient china that never was." I heartily recommend it, and would appreciate it if anyone knew anything else written by the same author (and let me know, of course). The book has everything you could want in it, a mystery, good guys, bad guys, hoaxes, oh, it's been a while, I'm going to reread it. This is a find I made while randomly browsing in a book store. I've found some really terrific stuff that way (I really liked "Frostflower and Thorn"), as well as some absolute HIDEOUS junk (like some book, I forget the title, but it was subtitled "Diane Santee, space agent" or some such, see, I was looking for books with women as main characters, but this one turns out to be one who really gets off on rape and slavery, etc. The author claims to be one Sharon Greene, but if it was written by a woman, I'll be EXTREMELY surprised. By the way, I returned the book (got my money back) after flipping through about *100+* pages of detailed description of women being "trained" as slaves, begging for sexual relief from their masters .... uck! The woman at the cash register said it was a *series*, and the second one had something like "if you liked the Gor novels ..." on the cover! Rene P S (nee Steiner) Bane bane@parcvax ------------------------------ From: drivax!holloway@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: I want FUNNY f & sf Date: 21 Apr 86 17:54:26 GMT How about Fredric Brown? ....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 86 10:18 EST From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Funny Fantasy You should also try the novels "The Dream Life of Balso Snell" and "Cool Million" by Nathanial West. Not only will you be amused, you will also learn where Kurt Vonnegut Jr. got his prose style. ------------------------------ From: bucsb!boreas@caip.rutgers.edu (The Mad Tickle Monster) Subject: Re: One-shot (?) authors. Date: 22 Apr 86 09:26:35 GMT >From: jbvb@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (James B. VanBokkelen) >I have two books (bought a couple of years ago) that I liked, but I >haven't seen anything more from their authors. > >1) _Wave Rider_ by Hilbert Schenck [...] 2) _The Zen Gun_, by >Barrington Bayley [...] > >Is it simply my local bookstores, or have both of the authors >folded their tents and stolen away? One I'd like to hear about is Patrick Tilley (?), who wrote _Cloud_Warrior_ a couple of years ago. It was supposed to be part of a trilogy, but in two years, I haven't seen a second book to it. . . . Does anyone know what's happened to it? _CW_ just came out in paperback, but none of the local book shops seem to have heard of anything else by him (one wouldn't even admit the book existed). Michael Justice bitnet: cscj0ac@bostonu UUCP: ...!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas CSNET: boreas@bucsb%bu-cs.csnet ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_ajpo@caip.rutgers.edu (The Doctor) Subject: Re: Buck Rogers Date: 20 Apr 86 19:56:16 GMT >From: WPHILLIPS.ES@Xerox.COM >If you watch Buck Rogers long enough and listen carefully you will >find several references to other science fiction characters and >authors. In fact in the last episodes of the series there war a >character named Commander (?) Asimov. I understand it was >intentional for such references to be on each show. It was Admiral Asimov, and yes they did state in the show that he was one of Isaac's decendants. Joseph P. Ogulin UUCP: {seismo!umcp-cs|ihnp4!whuxcc|allegra!hopkins} !jhunix!ins_ajpo ARPA: ins_ajpo%jhunix.BITNET@wiscvm.WISC.EDU BITNET:ins_ajpo@jhunix.BITNET ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Apr 86 0837-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #86 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 28 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 86 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Holdstock & offutt & Rothman & Tolkien (2 msgs) & Recommendations (2 msgs) & Funny SF (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@caip.rutgers.edu (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Battle Circle Date: 22 Apr 86 19:25:45 GMT >From: clapper@NADC >I heartily concur with the Battle Circle recommendations. It's one >of the few later Anthony works that doesn't seem to degenerate into >silliness. (I found my copy at the B. Dalton bookstore in >Philadelphia. They have a pretty good selection - or did when I >lived in town.) Well, make that one of his better earlier works! Battle Circle was published as three separate books back in the early 70's. I do agree that it's pretty good, as are Macroscope, Ox, Orn, and Omnivore - but I don't bother reading anything he writes lately. Seems that stuff that's cute, humorous, mind tweaking at first turns into sloppy, silly, trite after the author becomes secure in his position. Much the same can be said of Farmer's work. For a rather amusing expose' of this sort of thing, dig up a copy of a book by Fritz Leiber - The Silver Eggheads - 1961, my copy reprinted by Del Rey around 1979 ISBN 0-345-27966-2. Seems to me that 'word wooze' was the key element. George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ From: RICK BLAKE (on Essex DEC-10) Date: Monday, 21-Apr-86 15:56:51-BST Subject: Robert Holdstock Good to see that Bob Holdstock is getting known on the other side of the water (ref Don Chitwood's mention of MYTHAGO WOOD in issue #56). He seems to write in a sort of hinterland between straight fiction and fantasy, and his perfectly down-to-earth characters find their lives being dominated by what appear to be quasi-mystical forces. Further, he tends to pose questions that keep the reader thinking long after they have finished the book. I haven't really expressed myself very well; the best advice is to go and read his work. MYTHAGO WOOD is his most recent, and undoubtedly the best to date - if you enjoy that, look for the earlier books; "Earthwind" and "Eye among the Blind", as you will surely enjoy them too. Rick Blake rick%uk.ac.essex@cs.ucl.ac.uk ------------------------------ From: styx!fair@caip.rutgers.edu (Erik E. Fair) Subject: Re: andrew j. offutt Date: 23 Apr 86 06:16:37 GMT Both the story you describe and the editorial introduction (by Harlan Ellison) are in `Again, Dangerous Visions.' According to that, andrew j. offutt does not capitalize his name. Erik E. Fair styx!fair fair@lll-tis-b.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tue 22 Apr 86 11:51:38-PST From: Roger Crew Subject: Re: One-shot (?) authors. As long as someone's brought up the subject, I've got one of my own that I was curious about _The_World_Is_Round_ - by Tony Rothman - The basic plot involves a rather large (ridiculously huge) planet having strange, slow periods of rotation & revolution (so strange that the inhabitants have no concept of ``day'' or ``year''), explorers from a far-off, (relatively) typical earth-like world, who come seeking metallic hydrogen (i.e., fortune), a large group of natives that desparately want to leave the planet as it is such an obnoxious place to live, and lots of subplots.... The main theme is that of setting aside preconceptions and trying to discover the true nature of the world one lives in. The science is rather solid, as far as I could tell (I believe the writer was a physics grad student at the time he wrote this). In fact, this is one of the few sciece fiction works I've seen that really convey a sense of what science is all about. The characterizations are excellent. Highly recommended. Has anybody seen anything else by this author? roger ------------------------------ Date: Tue 22 Apr 86 11:17:07-PST From: Mark Crispin Subject: doors of Moria The inscription on the doors of Moria were written in Quenya (High Elvish). Legolas, as a wood-elf, would speak Sindarin as "common elvish" and his own local dialect at home. He wouldn't know Quenya -- very few elves did. Read The Silmarillion to find out why. The doors of Moria were built for Durin III (I think) by Celebrimbor, the leader of the elves of Eregion (Hollin) which was the last nation of Quenya-speaking elves on Middle-Earth. ------------------------------ From: Chris McMenomy Subject: Speak, friend and enter Date: Tue, 22 Apr 86 12:13:04 PST It isn't true that Legolas could have helped Gandalf in this case. For one thing, the dwarvish runes above the West Gate of Moria are in Quenya, or high Elvan. Legolas, a wood elf, spoke Sindarin, a later form of elvish with many differences. And Gandalf was perfectly satisfied that he knew all the words in the runes. Quenya bears roughly the same relationship to Westron (the common tongue of men in the third age) as Latin does to English; anyone who has tried translating Latin will recognize Gandalf's confusion and sympathize with it. Gandalf's original translation was "speak, friend, and enter"--he thought this meant that friends of the Dwarves would have known the password and said it, and he tried many commands which were used in similar situations. Eventually he realized the translation should have been "say 'friend' and enter". Note that the clarity of meaning is transmitted primarily by the punctuation in the English; there wasn't any punctuation in the runes to aid Gandalf. Christe McMenomy Rand Corporation ------------------------------ From: magic!b2@caip.rutgers.edu (Bryan Bingham) Subject: Re: Fantasy recommendations - fancy language Date: 21 Apr 86 23:01:14 GMT > From: Michael O'Brien > On the grounds that there are always new readers on this > list (or in this newsgroup, whatever), I'd like to mention some > truly classic works of "high fantasy" that have been out of print > for some time, or might be otherwise neglected. This collection > concentrates on use of language. Some call these horribly > overwritten; others (such as myself) call them wonderful. This > message is intended for those who, due to their rarity, might not > have heard of them. > > Kai-Lung's Golden Hours > The Wallet of Kai-Lung > Kai-Lung Unrolls His Mat > etc. > by Ernest Bramah (Smith) Since I love this sort of stuff, I went to the county library, and wonder of wonders, they had "Kai-Lung's Golden Hours"! 1923 First Edition, no less. A wonderful book! I was so excited I forgot to check the catalog to see if they had any more. For those of you who raved about "Bridge of Birds", published last year in paperback, or liked E. Hoffman's Price's effort, whose title I can't recall, set in Classical China, beg, borrow, or steal these books! (By the way Mike, can we talk?) Also, high fantasy enthusiasts must read Dunsany. Like Bramah, his fantasy works have been out of print for quite some time, but libraries do often have one or more of his books (avoid his later plays though, there not nearly so interesting). Jerry (being a net resource is my business) B. can probably supply all the titles, but look for "The Sword of Welleran", "The Gods of Pegana", "Fifty Tales", and mixed collections of his short stories. Tolkien and Lovecraft were deeply influenced by his style and vision. Lovecraft's "The Dream Quest for Unknown Kadath" is quite good, and his longest work. More later, b2 {ihnp4,allegra}!bellcore!b2 b2@bellcore ------------------------------ From: magic!b2@caip.rutgers.edu (Bryan Bingham) Subject: Re: Fantasy rcmmndtns - fancy language - Subject: corrections/additions Date: 22 Apr 86 05:00:26 GMT >For those of you who raved about "Bridge of Birds", published last >year in paperback, or liked E. Hoffman's Price's effort, whose >title I can't recall, set in Classical China, beg, borrow, or steal >these books! (By the way Mike, can we talk?) The Price book title is something like "The Devil Wives of Li Po". "Bridge of Birds" is by Barry Hughart. >Also, high fantasy enthusiasts must read Dunsany. Like Bramah, his >fantasy works have been out of print for quite some time, but >libraries do often have one or more of his books (avoid his later >plays though, there not nearly so interesting). > >Jerry (being a net resource is my business) B. can probably supply >all the titles, but look for "The Sword of Welleran", "The Gods of >Pegana", "Fifty Tales", and mixed collections of his short stories. >Tolkien and Lovecraft were deeply influenced by his style and >vision. Lovecraft's "The Dream Quest for Unknown Kadath" is quite >good, and his longest work. Gods of Pegana - 1905 Time and the Gods - 1906 A Dreamer's Tales - 1910 The Book of Wonder - 1912 Fifty-One Tales - 1915 (many set in "the fields we know") The Last Book of Wonder - 1916 Tales of the Three Hemispheres - 1919 (mostly Oriental tales) The King of Elfland's Daughter - novel Ballantine has published 5 paperbacks of Dunsany, they are for the most part difficult to impossible to find. At the Edge of the World Beyond the Fields We Know The Kind of Elfland's Daughter The Charwoman's Shadow The Chronicles of Don Rodriguez or Don Rodriguez: Chronicles of Shadow Valley. (I don't know which - Ballantine has it both ways) Lovecraft's short novel is "The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath", again published by Ballantine, and of course long out of print. More recent editions might be available. Ballantine's Adult Fantasy series presented fantasy lovers with a long string of wonderful classics, many of which hadn't been print for 50 to 189 years ("Vathek", William Beckford's masterpiece). My library of classic fantasy consists almost exclusively of used paperbacks from this series. "The Shaving of Shagpat", by George Meridith is another classic high fantasy enthusiasts won't want to miss. One can try William Morris ("The Well at the World's End", "The Water of the Wonderous Isles") as well, but there is little humor and a lot of slow passages in his writing. For those with great grit and determination, try Spenser's "The Faerie Queene" (Penguin, $12.95(!!)). A tough epic poem. I've never come close to finishing. For high fantasy in print, Jack Vance is, in my opinion, the best and most consistent author working today. His recently published sequel to "Lyonesse", "The Green Pearl", was the first trade paperback I've ever bought. I couldn't wait for it to come out in mass market size 9 months from now. His dialog never ceases to astound and entertain me. It is well worth the exhorbitant price. His "The Dying Earth" seems to have been re-released last month, so look for it. Tanith Lee's "Night Master" and other "Master" books are also excellent, but don't display the same level of wordplay that makes books like "Lyonesse" and "Kai Lung..." so special for me. Happy Reading! (Happy Hunting!) b2 b2@bellcore {ihnp4,allegra}!bellcore!b2 From "The Green Pearl": "That is good to hear!" declared Lord Pirmence. "But alas! You forget my advancing years! I have enemies, yes: pangs and aches, failing vision, asthma, toothlessness and senile cachexis; but they are no longer cruel knights, ogres, Goths and Moors. I intimately know the ague, gout, rheumatism and palsy. If truth be known, I am almost ready to creep away to castle Lutez, to wrap myself in eiderdowns and quite my roaring digestion with a diet of curds and gruel." Aillas said soberly: "Lord Pirmence, I am greatly distressed to hear of your decrepitude." "Alas! It is an end to which we all must come!" "So I am lead to believe. Incidentally, are you aware that a person who bears a striking resemblance to yourself roams the coarser districts of Domreis? No? He does your reputation no credit! Recently, close on midnight, I happened to look into the Green Star Inn and there I saw this person with one foot on a bench, the other on a table, brandishing high a tankard of ale and trolling a mighty stave; meanwhile he clasped one of the tavern wenches with an iron grip. His whiskers were exactly like your own and he seemed to enjoy an excess of exuberant good health." "How I envy the man!" murmured Lord Pirmence. "I wonder at his secret!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 86 13:32:07 EST From: "Daniel P. Dern" Subject: And Still More Funny/Humorous SF Aside from the afore-mentioned "High Crusade" (Poul Anderson), here's some more I haven't seen mentioned yet: HALF A HOKA, Poul Anderson and Gordon Dickson (stories) Classic. Hokas are smallish furry critters (they predate Ewoks by ~ 2 decades, BTW) that like to read fiction and are overly suggestible. Written with tongue firmly in cheek. ASTRA & FLONDRIX, Seamus ????. True SF erotica/porn (no human involved). Probably not arousing to our species, but damned funny. SPATIAL DELIVERY and another novel whose name I forget, Gordon Dickson. Humorous, as in comedy of errors. Good like most Dickson. FANTASIA MATHEMATICA and THE MATHEMATICAL MAGPIE, ed. Clifton Fadiman. The original collections of mostly math pieces, humrous and otherwise interested. Hard to find. Still good. "Subway Named Moebius", "Star, Bright" and many others, by sf writers, mathematicians and other cognoscenti. THE PHANTOM TOLLBOTH, Norm Juster. Not just another kids book. Illustrated by Jules Feiffer. I'm sure we've still barely scratched the list. Will someone post a summary in another month? How about all the works of Robert Scheckley, John Collier, Gahan Wilson, etc., not to mention (sometimes) Ron Goulart, Harry Harrison, "Creatures of Light & Darkness" (Zelazny), John Sladek ... daniel dern ddern@bbn.arpa ------------------------------ From: uokvax!cdrigney@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 21 Apr 86 03:27:00 GMT gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU writes: >(9) Tzadick of the Seven Wonders by Habilum was OK. >He has another humorous novel whose name I forgot. You may be thinking of _The Wilk are Among Us_. I'd recommend Buck Coulson & Gene DeWeese' _Now You See It/Him/Them_ and the sequel _Charles Fort Never Mentioned Wombats_, both set at worldcons. Better yet is Christopher Anvil's _Pandora's Planet_ - "The natives are no longer to be referred to as puffheaded loptails!" Carl Rigney USENET: {ihnp4,allegra!cbosgd}!okstate!uokvax!cdrigney ------------------------------ From: gladys!bob@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob White) Subject: Re: Funny SF & F Date: 20 Apr 86 23:22:44 GMT Another series that's not been mentioned much yet is Chris Stasheff's WARLOCK series. There are currently 6 books that I know of in the series, and they are: A Wizard In Bedlam The Warlock In Spite of Himself The Warlock Unlocked Escape Velocity The Warlock Enraged King Kobold Revived The series is set in a time after the great emigration from Earth and Earth is attempting to rediscover all the "lost" colonies. The hero of the story is a young man who goes to one of these colonies with the intentions of guiding them back into galactic civilization, and finds he's landed on a planet where he, among many others, has magical powers. I found the whole series a lot of fun to read. Bob White ihnp4!burl!gladys!bob 5123 Ramillie Run Winston-Salem, NC 27106 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Apr 86 0950-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #87 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 28 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 87 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Heinlein & Offutt & Pangborn & Pohl & Alive Computers & Funny SF (4 msgs) & One Shot Authors, Films - Legend (3 msgs) Television - Buck Rogers, Miscellaneous - What does "fen" mean? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Apr 86 05:54:36 PST From: lah%miro@BERKELEY.EDU (Cmndr. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Jhereg/Yendi Loose paraphrase: "Did anyone catch the Sherlock Holmes reference" For that matter, did anyone besides me catch the quote from Monty Python & the Holy Grail? "She'll turn you into a newt." "I'll get better." or something like that. Regards, Leigh Ann ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 86 18:52:06 est From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: killing off Heinlein characters I wonder how many people are going to msg in noting that Lazarus Long is unequivocably NOT "bleeding to death in a foxhole" at the end of TIME ENOUGH TO SCREW AROUND; his clone-daughters and others come back in time to just the right instant and pick him up (although the daughters react like valley girls to the sight of bloodguts&). ------------------------------ From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer) Subject: Re: andrew j. offutt Date: 23 Apr 86 22:12:50 GMT I checked the Analog issues in question, and the name was capitalized there (in the TOC and also in the blurb from the previous issue). I hadn't heard of this before. Coincidentally, in a story I'm writing there is a character who insists on a monocase name -- now I'll probably be sued. :-) Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh) ------------------------------ From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: Edgar Pangborn Date: 23 Apr 86 17:39:14 GMT >From: NEVNT%NERVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Vicki Turner) >Does anyone have an extra copy of Pangborn's THE WILDERNESS of >SPRING? > >This particular book is not SF, and was published, I think, in >1957. I have tried to find it everywhere. (Spider Robinson has >several copies of it, according to his foreword in Still I >Persist...) If anyone is willing to part with a copy, please let me >know. I'll take any copy regardless of the shape it's in. So will I. This book is HARD TO FIND! A friend, who is an avid book collector and bookstore owner/operator, says that until last year, he had only ever SEEN two copies, one of which he bought. He subsequently got another copy, so I got to borrow his older copy to read (actually, his roommate's copy). Wonderful book. Mike Farren uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667 ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 1986 13:55:48 PST Subject: Quantum Cats From: Alan R. Katz The Coming of the Quantum Cats, by Fred Pohl I must say I disagree with the previous review of this book. I think its the best Pohl has written in years (which isn't saying much, though). I have found that his other more recent stuff (i.e. the last 15 years) such as Jem, Man Plus, and the Gateway trilogy to be barely worth reading. I never did manage to get through the last book of the series. Quantum Cats is much better. It's not a classic and its a standard alternate timelines type of story, but is fun to read. (One timeline has a wimpy Jerry Brown as president, another has NANCY Reagan as president, with Ronnie as first househusband.) Alan (Katz@USC-ISIB.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 86 10:48:14 CST From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI Subject: Alive Computers (Heart Of The Comet) Haven't seen a mention yet in this context of Benford & Brin's HEART OF THE COMET. In it, there is an "organic matrix" computer that almost is alive (there are repeated comments to the effect that the "genius programmer" who is responsible for it could tell that it was "mimicking" life); but it is implied, near the end, that it really is alive (and nobly self- sacrificing, to boot). By the way, to speak generally of this book -- I found it technically interesting and inventive, but I found myself despising most of the characters (maybe that means they were well done, to inspire such emotion? Nonetheless, I prefer reading books where I enjoy the action, as opposed to having a feeling of distasteful expectation of the next unpleasantness to follow). Will ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 20 Apr 86 17:07:00 GMT guy@slu70.UUCP writes: >My all time favorite is "The Butterfly Kid" (author forgotten) >although post sixties-generation types may find it a bit dated. Chester Anderson wrote the Butterfly Kid. It had a sequel called the Unicorn Girl written by Michael Kurland (who has written a fair bit of other funny stuff) and that in turn had a sequel written by someone else whose name I've forgotten and which I never found. These were interesting in that Chester, Michael and this other guy are all characters in all the books. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 86 8:32:57 EST From: Joel B Levin Subject: Re: Funny F & FS As I keep rediscovering, the Gallegher the drunken inventor stories were written under the name Lewis Padgett by Henry Kuttner, a favorite author of mine. (Especially the Padgett ones.) I'm glad to see references to Frederic Brown ... I had forgotten him. Author of the much anthologized story "Arena" (Trekkies should remember the episode loosely based on it), he wrote a book of short stories I ran across years ago containing a number of stories, mostly funny, often related to the typeset printing industry, and interleaved with two page short shorts. (He also wrote at least two amusing mystery novels about a young man and his uncle, semi-pro private detectives who reside in a boarding house -- the title of one sticks in my mind: "Mrs. Murphy's Underpants".) I want to add a story (I think by Sturgeon) that sticks in my mind: "The [Widget], the [Wadget], and Boff," collected in a Boucher two volume classics collection the name of which I have forgotten. "Fantasia Mathematica" and its sequel, both edited by Clifton Fadiman, each contain a story by Martin Gardner (the first is called "The No-Sided Professor"), for those who want some light mathematics based SF. JBL Arpa: levin@bbncc2.arpa Usenet: {world}!bbncca!levin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 86 09:10:10 est From: Carol Morrison Subject: Funny F & SF I say again, "Esther Friesner." Humorous short stories in Amazing: BUT WAIT! THERE'S MORE! (collaboration with her husband) 11-84 A FRIENDLY GAME OF CROLA 09-85 DRAGONET 01-86 Novel: HARLOT'S RUSE Of these, DRAGONET is the funniest, being a fantasy told in the style of Jack Webb: BUT WAIT! THERE'S MORE! runs it a close second, though. It's a sendup of fantasy cliches in the manner of hardsell TV and magazine ads: I've already reviewed HARLOT'S RUSE. The pacing was a bit frenetic, but she definitely has a way with words, and I suspect she hasn't peaked yet. Keep an eye on this one! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 86 19:12:28 est From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: humorous SF There have been several anthologies of humorous SF; as you might expect, the "humor" in many of the stories is rather strained. Worth reading: NOT IN \THIS/ WORLD (?), edited by Idella Purnell Stone, and INFINITE JESTS (ed Silverberg?). The latter contains a real wonder: an incredibly funny piece called "Useful Phrases for the Tourist [in High Locrine?]" by, of all people, Joanna Russ. The phrases have a cumulative effect (rather like Aldiss's Confluence phrasebook in one of Merril's anthologies) but are all wild slapstick: IN THE HOTEL That is my companion. It is not intended as a tip. This cannot be my room because I cannot breathe ammonia. AT THE HOSPITAL Placing the thermometer there will yield little or no useful information. ON THE TOUR-BUS At what hour does the lovelorn princess fling herself into the volcano? May we participate? and so on, all in the stilted language typical of 50's teach-yourself-to-speak-X books, and all descending rapidly into chaos. BTW, have I been asleep or has nobody mentioned Ron Goulart? (fgrep finds no instances in the last 3 weeks worth of digests!) Most of his books are about thoroughly whacked-out people acting as if whatever they're doing is perfectly normal; after the first couple of dozen this can pall, but an occasional dose of Goulart is a good antidote to normality. CHip (Chip Hitchcock) ARPA: CJH@CCA-UNIX uu: ...{!harvard,!cbosgd,!zeppo}!cca!cjh ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 86 11:34:24 est From: Antonio Leal Subject: One shot authors Besides the mentioned _The Zen Gun_ (of which I had never heard), Barrington Bailey has a published collection of short stories, called _Knights of the Limits_. I did buy and read that, though it is probably out of print by now. I concur that the stories aren't particularly well done, but the premises are fascinating (e.g., a solid universe where you tunnel through to travel ?!). Tony (abl@ohm.ece.cmu.edu) ------------------------------ From: sun!falk@caip.rutgers.edu (Ed Falk) Subject: Re: Legend Date: 23 Apr 86 04:38:15 GMT DISCLAIMER: I didn't go to this movie on purpose. There's only one theater within walking distance of where I live, and it wasn't until I walked all the way there that I realized that there was nothing else showing that wasn't either (a) something I'd seen already, or (b) pure shit. I saw Legend this weekend, and have mixed feelings. Basically it's about the good guys trying to keep the bad guy (Tim Curry as Satan, but for some reason the movie makers wouldn't say it outright, so they had the characters refer to him as "the big D") from killing the only two Unicorns in the world and getting their horns. This movie was so camp and hokey that the audience was giggling before the opening titles were finished running. There was no plot continuity whatsoever. We never find out who the heroine is (it's hinted that she's a princess of some kind, but we never learn more). We never find out exactly who the hero is other than that he's some kind of woods geek. We certainly never find out how the princess met, let alone fell in love with this unkempt woods geek. There's some sort of ritual involving throwing a ring into a river, but its relavence to saving the universe is completely lost. Why does the wood sprite hide the fact the fact that she can turn into a winged human at will from everybody but the hero? Why does she have the hots for the hero in the first place? Don't ask me, I'm still trying to figure the princess out. We're led to believe that by somehow reflecting some sunlight off a chain of platters to get it down into hell will help fight Satan off. When the light finally arrives, it (a) blows the doors off the wall, and (b) has no effect on Satan at all so the hero has to use his kung foo to save the day. They make a big deal out of his magic sword, but when the big fight scene arrives, it's mysteriously written out of the script. HOWEVER Tim Curry as Satan made the whole thing worth while. I wish they'd have had more of him and less of the other two. Between his acting, the special effects and his makeup job, he was magnificent. The makeup job was by far the best monster makeup I have ever seen in cinema -- we're talking acadamy award material here. From the ridges on his forehead to the cats-eye pupils it was perfect (well, maybe the horns were a wee bit big). His acting (he's had a lot of practices from the RHPS of course) was perfect for the part. There's one scene in the movie where the heroine is wearing the low-cut, black (of course) evening dress that satan has given her and is looking at herself in the mirror. Suddenly, one of Satan's hands bursts through the mirror from the other side, and he slowly steps through the mirror to seduce her. Wow. Naturally, she resists him though; I wanted to shout "no you fool, don't go back to that woods twerp!". Summary: If there's nothing else showing, go see it. ed falk, sun microsystems ------------------------------ From: sun!falk@caip.rutgers.edu (Ed Falk) Subject: Re: Legend Date: 23 Apr 86 04:48:00 GMT Oops. How could I forget the chintzy foam-rubber horns super-glued onto the foreheads of the two white horses? Watching the two horses capering in the woods with their horns wobbling this way and that nearly made me laugh out loud. ed falk, sun microsystems ------------------------------ From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) Subject: Re: Legend Date: 24 Apr 86 02:19:47 GMT >> the good guys trying to keep the bad guy (Tim Curry as Satan, but >>for some reason the movie makers wouldn't say it outright, so they >>had the characters refer to him as "the big D") from killing the >>only two Unicorns in the >...Watching the two horses capering in the woods with their horns >wobbling this way and that nearly made me laugh out loud. I don't think that Dark was Satan for one reason: He was talking to someone and asking that being for advice on how to 'woo' the girl. I think that the person he talks to is Evil/Satan/whatever. I kept hoping all the way through the film that Evil (from Time Bandits) would jump out and just zap one for no reason, and say 'Sorry about that, Benson.' Tim Curry has saved this film for me. His characterization of Dark was quite enjoyable. As for laughing out loud, there's one scene with the girl where she's walking along in the forest, the wind is blowing, and my friend blurted out 'This scene would be perfect for a tampon commercial.' If I had laughed like I wanted to, I would have been thrown out of the theatre. Jonathan D. Trudel arpa: trudel@blue.rutgers.edu uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4}!topaz!blue!trudel ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Buck Rogers Date: 20 Apr 86 17:02:48 GMT >From: WPHILLIPS.ES@Xerox.COM >If you watch Buck Rogers long enough and listen carefully you will >find several references to other science fiction characters and >authors. In fact in the last episodes of the series there war a >character named Commander (?) Asimov. I understand it was >intentional for such references to be on each show. I was at a con in LA -- probably an Octocon but who remembers anymore -- and had lunch with the fan GoH. She was a nice young woman and an active fan who had been hired for the specific purpose of helping the Buck Rogers people find and write in stuff connecting it with mainstream SF. Pike and Admiral Asimov are only a couple of the cases of this. I really liked the show -- funny stuff, not bad writing for TV and Erin Gray in spandex. What more could one ask? Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 86 11:16:15 EST From: Joel B Levin Subject: Fen: a query As an individual unsocialized sf-lover for a long time but a fairly recent subscriber to this digest, I would be interested in seeing an etymology and definition of "fen" (I do have some idea what it must mean). Also, while I know the meaning of "filksong," I am curious about its etymology too. Thanks JBL ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Apr 86 0823-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #88 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 29 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 88 Today's Topics: Books - Bayley & Brooks & Hughart & Lovecraft & Sladek & Tolkien & Vinge & Wilson & Wolfe (3 msgs) & Funny SF (2 msgs) & Math and SF & Publisher's Tricks (2 msgs), Television - Buck Rogers & Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Copyrights ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu 24 Apr 86 14:15:53-EST From: Laurence Brothers Subject: Barrington J. Bayley.... has been writing wryly amusing SF for some years, he must have at least 10 books out, but unfortunately, the American editions are all DAW, which tend to have an in-print lifetime of about a month, so you can't find most of his work around, some of which are really very good. I believe Bayley is English, whether I got that impression merely from his writing, or from some other source I don't know, but often the English market never makes it across the ocean into a decent edition, and vice versa. ------------------------------ From: edison!tzc@caip.rutgers.edu (Trish Cuthbert) Subject: Re: Re: New terry Brooks book Date: 21 Apr 86 17:38:31 GMT I have read the trilogy of the Ohmsford family by Terry Brooks and loved them all. My favourite was the last one "Wishstones of Shannara". Just purchased a new one called something along the lines of "MAGIC KINGDOM FOR SALE: SOLD", but haven't had time to read it yet. Tolkien was the beginning of my interest in fantasy, but I thought his books a little long winded and appreciated Brook's ability to conclude each story in each book. Don't get me wrong, Tolkien is undeniably the master of fantasy, but I think there is room for new talent whether Tolkien-influenced or not. Trishy ------------------------------ From: alice!jj@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Bridge of Birds Date: 23 Apr 86 19:40:49 GMT "Bridge of Birds" was written by Barry Hughart. It's a fantastic book, along the spiritual lines (in a way) of Brust's "Brokedown Palace", which is another wonderful book for people who don't have to have it all spelled out for them. I heartily recommend either or both. I don't know if I'd call them "funny SF" because neither is SF, rather they are both fantasy. Bridge of Birds is set in a long-passed China that never was. (ihnp4;allegra;research)!alice!jj ------------------------------ From: factron!bbarnett@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Barnett) Subject: Re: Lovecraft & Necronomicon Date: 21 Apr 86 09:07:04 GMT I have always heard that some enterprising author `collected' the Lovecraft material and added some material from Cthulhu knows where. A friend who frequents the Shambhala bookstore in Berkeley had warned me that the editors of the Lovecraft-inspired _Necronomicon_ did their research TOO WELL!. He warned me not to keep a copy in the house. [Do I hear therimin music in the distance?] I would include the graphic for Cthulhu, but the true appearance may be too much for those inexperienced in such matters :) Bruce Barnett ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 86 14:43:36 EST From: KLOUDA@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Oh No! More Funny SF! I don't know if anyone has mentioned this book but I feel it is worth reading. John Sladek's TIK TOK. It's a British story about a robot who finds that he is able to go against his robotic laws. So he does. It's a twisted story about this robot's life as he goes about killing people and all sorts of mean and nasty things. I believe that it won a British science fiction award. If anyone knows of other books by John Sladek please let me know. ------------------------------ From: magic!b2@caip.rutgers.edu (Bryan Bingham) Subject: Doors of Durin -- a couple of points Date: 23 Apr 86 15:00:26 GMT While several people have answered the question about the riddle/password inscribed on the Doors of Durin, the West-gate of Moria, here are some details that should clear up some confusion in those postings. The Doors were made very early in the Second Age -- when is not exactly known, but after 700 SA. Narvi was a dwarven craftsman of tremendous skill, but Celebrimbor was a grandson of Feanor, the greatest artificer the world ever knew, and it was he that became the chief artificer of Eregion. Some evidence says he was the Lord of Eregion, but it really seems Galadriel and Celeborn jointly ruled the territory until events got out of hand. The Fellowship reached the doors on 13 Jan 3019 Third Age, around 5700 years after the Doors were constructed. Little wonder not much was known about them, even by Gandalf, since he didn't arrive until around 1000 TA, and as he mentions later, whenever he went to Moria the doors were open. Legolas did not help discover the word nor did he even volunteer to read the writing. He was of an entirely different race than the Noldor, being a Sindarin Elf (Grey-elf). His tribe, when called on by Orome to cross the Sea and enter Valinor, went as far Beleriand then decided to stop. After the fall of Morgoth his father led quite a few of his people east across the Misty Mountains to settle in what eventually became Mirkwood. Silvan or Wood-elves already lived in area when Thranduil arrived but apparently had no objection to him setting himself up as their king. They were of yet another tribe of elves that didn't even cross the Misty Mountains on the Great Journey to Valinor. So it's not impossible that Legolas couldn't read or write the Noldoran tongue, Quenya, but I think it probably that he just kept his mouth shut while Gandalf answered the question. b2 {ihnp4,allegra}!bellcore!b2 b2@bellcore ------------------------------ Date: Thu 24 Apr 86 13:39:10-EST From: Rob Freundlich Subject: bobbles I can't stand it anymore. All this talk about bobbles bobbling other bobbles and microscopic bobbles bobbling the bobbled Earth has gotten me curious. What exactly is a bobble? I haven't had a chance to read _The Peace War_, and it doesn't look like I will for awhile (at least until summer). So will someone PLEASE clear this up??????? ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 86 11:16:20 PST (Thursday) Subject: Re: F. Paul Wilson From: Cate3.EIS@Xerox.COM To: jon@csvax.caltech.EDU There was another book, something like "Wheels within Wheels", and a number of short stories published in Analog through the seventies. His stories are fun. "Healer" is the expanded version of "Pard" which was published in Analog. He often tries to make the point of the best government is that which governs least. Henry II ------------------------------ From: cisden!john@caip.rutgers.edu (John Woolley) Subject: Re: BotNS words Date: 22 Apr 86 16:43:33 GMT roberts%forty2.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM writes: >Can anyone enlighten me on the meaning/derivation of the words >Wolfe uses for Urth's currency. One in particular I'd like to find >out more about is "orichalk". There are four words for different sorts of coins used in _The_Book_of_ _the_New_Sun_. In ascending order of value, they are "aes", "orichalk", "asimi", and "chrisos". Three of these have easy derivations. "Aes" is a Latin word for copper or bronze, or anything made thereof, especially coins. It came to mean, in particular, little tiny brass or bronze coins, and came over into English with that meaning. Wolfe uses it thus. "Orichalk" is an odd transliteration of the Greek "oreichalkos", a sort of copper ore. ("Chalkos" is bronze in Greek. It has plain nothing to do with our "chalk", which is cognate by a fascinating route to Greek "chalyx", pebble, and related to Latin "silex", pavingstone or flint, and English "shell".) This word was taken over into Latin as "orichalcum", copper ore or the metal made from it. (There's an interesting side line here -- in later Latin, the word was sometimes misspelled "aurichalcum", getting confused by folk-etymology with "aureum", gold. So in English it occasionally seems to mean gold- coloured copper.) Wolfe uses "orichalk" for the large brass coins of the Commonwealth. "Chrisos", the word for a gold coin in Wolfe, is from Greek "chrysos", gold. The hard one is "asimi", the Commonwealth's silver coins. After hours of work on this one, I've got to say I'm stumped. So if anyone has any plausible guesses, please let me know. My only halfway likely guess is that it is somehow derived from "asem", a technical word in archaeology, meaning a certain alloy of gold and silver, which comes from the Greek "asemos", "unmarked", although I don't know what the connection is. Aren't words wonderful! John Woolley ------------------------------ From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: BotNS words Date: 23 Apr 86 17:43:05 GMT krantz@csd2.UUCP (Michaelntz) writes: >The genius of Wolfe's universe is that his new vocabulary sounds to >our ears familiar... The reason it sounds familiar is that it IS familiar - Wolfe did not make up ANY of the vocabulary, but used obscure words from the English language. Read THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER, by Wolfe, for details on the process... Mike Farren uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667 ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 1986 09:25:56-EST From: Robert.Firth@A.SEI.CMU.EDU Subject: What's an Orichalk? First, orichalk, also called orichalc, orichalcum, is a metal. The word is Greek (oreikhalkon - "mountain copper") and occurs in Plato, where it is described as a metal found only on the Island of Atlantis. Naturally, nobody has ever dug up any orichalcum, and nearly everyone regards the stuff as mythical. Nor were coins ever made out of it, since the fabled Atlantis sank long before the invention of coinage by the kings of Lydia. However, if you did rediscover orichalcum, or use the name for some other metal or alloy, it would be quite good for coinage - Plato said it was harder than bronze and more valuable than any other metal save gold. Well, the name of the material used in a coin often gets attached to its name - eg "Silver Thaler", "Louis d'Or", "Aureus" - and of course the familiar "nickel". So it is quite reasonable to call a coin made of orichalcum an "orichalk". (Moreover, sound money and weak governments go together, but that's a digression more appropriate to Poli-Sci) Robert Firth ------------------------------ From: duncan!bwm@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Humor for help Date: 22 Apr 86 13:21:00 GMT Well, I'll pay for this information, but it'll be cheap. Although *Myth* books are probably better, I liked _Glory_Road by Heinlein for its humor. At the same time, it used my favorite method for introducing fantasy into my science fiction, using Clarke's (?) law that advanced technology (and mathematical models of reality) will look like magic to the uninitiated. In any case, the information I seek is the title and source (believed to be an "Analog" sized magazine) of the following story line (this is just the beginning and middle, I need to read it again to get ending). By the way, I will soon be a professor teaching decision making, which should explain why I think this story is worth hunting down. Anyway... Story starts in a space ship, in the quarters of the ship's tactical analyst. The analyst rolls some dice to determine the strategy to be used in the next battle. Later, the same analyst determines that by his reckoning, his side is clearly winning every battle. The question, why won't the other side negotiate? The answer, because they use a different measure of merit, and their calculatons are showing them as winning every battle. You can see the two aspects of decision making that this story would let me demonstrate to a class of decision makers! Thanks in advance. Bruce (ihnp4!pur-ee!pur-phy!duncan!bwm) ------------------------------ From: drivax!holloway@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: And Still More Funny/Humorous SF Date: 23 Apr 86 17:23:19 GMT I didn't think "Creatures of Light and Darkness" was a particularly funny book.... it was a *fantastic* book, in every sense of the word, Zelazny at his finest and most imaginative, but I didn't find myself rolling in the aisles. How about Gordon Dickson's "The Dragon and the George"? ....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 86 23:41:29 PST From: stever@vlsi.caltech.edu (Steve Rabin ) Subject: Biased as a mathematician David desJardins writes: > Of course, I'm biased as a mathematician; how many SF books can >you think of which involve something of actual mathematical >interest (the game of Sprouts)? Let me highly recommend DEFINITELY MAYBE by Arkady and Boris Sturgatsky, as containing the best treatment of mathematical research I have ever seen in SF or elsewhere. On a much lighter note, Rudy Rucker (PhD in math) has many hilarious books and short stories about cantor sets, infinities, multi dimensional spaces etc. My favorite of Rudy's books is a novel called WHITE LIGHT. THE 57th FRANZ KAFKA is an anthology with many of his mathematical short stories. Steve ------------------------------ From: watdragon!smkindersley@caip.rutgers.edu (sumo kindersley) Subject: Baen Books nasty tactics Date: 23 Apr 86 09:12:18 GMT >>...relatively poor short story, and the rest was the novel "Retief's >>Ransom" .. Careful examination of the outside of the book revealed >>on the back, towards the bottom, the legend "Plus: the full length >>novel, Retief's Ransom"... > >This is the second time Baen has pulled this stunt with a "new" >Retief book. I am not sure of bookstore policy in general, but I would absolutely attempt to return this book, if you have not somehow damaged it in reading it. I have never failed to get my money back for a book, but I have only asked a few times and felt utterly justified. They agreed. Give it a try. Tell the BOOKSTORE that you dislike Baen's tactics. uucp: {utzoo|decvax|ihnp4|clyde|linus|allegra} !watmath!watdragon!smkindersley csnet: smkindersley%watdragon@waterloo.csnet arpa: smkindersley%watdragon%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Thu 24 Apr 86 16:55:45-PST From: Judy Anderson Subject: Lowdown dirty publishers tricks In addition to avoiding books published by Baen in retaliation for their dirty tricks re: the Laumer Retief reprints, you might consider sending a nastygram (physical USnail, oh no!) to the publisher indicating that you are doing this and why. I often think of boycotting a product, but I figure they'll never notice unless a lot of people do this and so I have to draw their attention to it. Usually the response I get from the company is "Well other people don't object so you're just a turkey", but I keep hoping my letter will make them see the light... Judy. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 86 15:39:10 PST From: lah%miro@BERKELEY.EDU (Cmndr. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Buck Rogers >It was Admiral Asimov, and yes they did state in the show that he >was one of Isaac's decendants. I thought he only had a daughter? So how would the name be continued directly? Regards, Leigh Ann ------------------------------ Subject: Star Trek Animateds From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Jim White) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 86 09:29:31 EST Does anyone in Netland know of the availability (and price) of the Star Trek animateds on video cassettes? Any info appreciated. ------------------------------ Date: Thu 24 Apr 86 14:12:40-EST From: Laurence Brothers Subject: Character Copyright I don't think characters CAN be copyrighted. The authors can moan and groan, and maybe trademark protection can apply to, say, STAR WARS characters, but I don't think ordinary characters and situations can be held as the sole reserve of an author. Laurence ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Apr 86 0855-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #89 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 29 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 89 Today's Topics: Books - Bayley (2 msgs) & Bradley & Kuttner & MacAvoy & McKiernan & Moorcock & Schenck & Tolkien (2 msgs) & Vinge & Zahn & Anachronisms & Parallel Universe Stories ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: apollo!johnf@caip.rutgers.edu (John Francis) Subject: Re: One-shot (?) authors. (Barrington J. Bayley) Date: 24 Apr 86 00:07:35 GMT I don't know about Hilbert Schenck, but I have the following books by Barrington J. Bayley: The Fall of Chronopolis The Garments of Caen The Grand Wheel Soul of a Robot You may also be able to find several of his short stories, especially in the "New Worlds" paperback magazine/anthologies edited by Michael Moorcock. ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: One shot authors Date: 24 Apr 86 16:40:18 GMT J. Barrington Bayley has also written "The Pillars of Eternity" and "The Forest of Peldain". (Suddenly those names don't sound exactly right, but the titles are close.) I liked Pillars a great deal, mostly for the concept of the hero. He was severely injured in some kind of accident and had to be reconstructed by your traditional advanced tech aliens. His new bones were entirely filled with silicon chips, giving him immense mental potential. To avoid driving him mad with the suddenly increased thinking power available to him, most of the circuits were dormant, programmed to wait until they were activated by a key word or phrase. The tech types gave him about 12 different levels of heightened consciousness and were training him to use the lowest levels when he decided to leave. Thus he was walking around with tons of extra brain power that he didn't know how to activate or use. The Forest of Peldain, on the other hand, lost my interest soon into the book. Basic set-up: an empire rules the whole of a collection of islands except for Peldain. Peldain is thought to be solid forest, and *nasty* forest at that (along the lines of Harry Harrison's Deathworld). Then someone is found on the shores of Peldain, claiming that he is from a superior culture that lives in the interior of the island, so an expeditionary force from the empire is sent to find the culture (and maybe conquer it). According to the cover blurbs of the books, Bayley is relatively popular in Britain but has yet to crack the North American market. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: flying telephone switchboards Date: 22 Apr 86 20:10:14 GMT kwh@bentley.UUCP (KW Heuer) writes: >I remember a book called "The Brass Dragon" (I think) in which one >of the humanoid aliens says to the primitive Terran "Yes, we use >sliderules too -- of course they're much more powerful than yours." You have a good memory. The book is indeed _The Brass Dragon_; it is an early effort by Marion Zimmer Bradley, and is not bad for a rather typical SF-adventure-story. The actual quote is more reasonable, however: Varzil also had a slide rule, and when I expressed surprise, he told me that it was a simpler form of one known in the Galatic civilization; the principle was the same, but the Earth one was just handier to carry in a pocket. (p. 183, Ace paperback edition; no printing date on the copyright page, but from the price I would guess I bought it in 1978 or 1979.) Those of you who think of slide rules as `primitive' should consider also this: The batteries in a slide rule never wear out. Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1415) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ From: apollo!johnf@caip.rutgers.edu (John Francis) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 23 Apr 86 23:56:48 GMT > Another good group of stories to read are some about "Gallagher > Plus". I don't remember the author or the titles (sorry), but > I've seen about five of these stories in OLD collections (1950's > perhaps). They're about a guy who, normally, is pretty normal. > When he gets drunk, though, a sort of "second mind" cuts in, which > ends up getting him into trouble all around. . . . They're fun. These are by Henry Kuttner, another good source of funny stories. Five of them (The Proud Robot, Gallagher Plus, The World is Mine, Ex Machina, and Time Locker) can be found in a collection entitled "Robots Have No Tails" ------------------------------ From: li@uw-vlsi.ARPA (Phyllis Li) Subject: R.A. MacAvoy Date: 23 Apr 86 03:28:40 GMT Please send all answers to ME, and I will summerize to the net. In the bookstore the other day I saw about three or four other books by MacAvoy, (yes, I have been hiding myself in my room studying, working and being generally boring for the past few years ... :) And I have read her _Tea_with_the_Black_Dragon_ and was really impressed by the story; but the subjects that she tackles in the other books make me a little wary of just buying the things. So what do you think of her other works? Thanks in advance. Liralen Li USENET: ihnp4!akgua!sb6!fluke!uw-vlsi!li ARPA: li@uw-vlsi.arpa ------------------------------ From: apollo!johnf@caip.rutgers.edu (John Francis) Subject: Re: McKiernan, Tolkien Date: 24 Apr 86 00:23:43 GMT >>The rumor I heard about McKiernan's Iron Tower Trilogy is that it >>was suppose to be a sequal to The Lord of The Rings > >As I heard it---and this is only a two-person indirection chain so >is more likely to be accurrate---the Iron Tower trilogy was written >as background information to the original sequel, wherein the >Dwarves attempt to retake Moria. It should be interesting! Now if >only it will be printed.... Why don't we stop publishing rumors, and ask the author? He occasionally reads this newsletter, and even submits to it sometimes! The following is an extract from mail I received which I hope he won't mind me publishing: >As for why I wrote it: I always wanted to read another Hobbit >story, but Tolkien died... This does not say anything about the storyline, but the impression I got from reading the books (which I would strongly recommend) was that they were not so much set in the identical Middle Earth mythos as set in a very similar mythos in the same way that there are parallels between Greek and Roman mythology (or any other mythologies you care to mention - do you know how many ethnic backgrounds contain a legend analogous to Noahs Ark ?). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 86 20:33 PST From: Brown@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA, David D From: Subject: Eternal Champion A while ago, somebody mentioned a series of books written by Michael Moorcock based on his "Eternal Champion" concept. Having just finished the Elric Saga, I would be very interested if someone would post a list of the books that make up the series... Thanks... Dave Brown CSNet: zaphod%wwu.csnet@csnet-relay ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: One-shot (?) authors. Date: 22 Apr 86 15:12:35 GMT I don't know about Bayley, but Hilbert Schenck's stories continue to appear in the Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction every so often. I think I've seen his stuff on occasion in one of the other mags as well. Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ From: bunny!rer0@caip.rutgers.edu (Robert Reinke) Subject: Re: Tolkien, translation Date: 24 Apr 86 14:50:33 GMT > This was taken to mean "Say the password to open the door". The > correct interpretation should have been > > "Say `friend', and enter" One thing that has always confused me about this scene is Gandalf's reaction once he realizes the correct translation. He says something to the effect of "Pippin, of all people, was on the right track" to the actual meaning of the inscription. I can't remember anything Pippin (or maybe it was Meriadoc) said that had anything to do with the inscription, much less with its translation. Any ideas? Bob Reinke GTE Laboratories Waltham, MA CSNet: rer0@gte-labs UUCP : ...seismo!harvard!bunny!rer0 ------------------------------ From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Moria Gate inscription's meaning Date: 24 Apr 86 02:09:33 GMT From: raoul@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA >Since we're on the subject of Tolkien did anyone notice the LOTR >scene where Gandalf and company are about to enter through the >mountains of Moria. They come to a door set into the mountain with >elfish script adorning it. The script translated says in effect >"Say the elfish word for friend, mellon, to enter". Gandalf was >hard pressed to discover this fact and there were Language drift. The ``modern'' meaning of the inscription was Speak, friend, and enter. But to the fellows who wrote the inscription, the language was slightly different; *they* wrote (in their older Elvish dialect) Say ``friend'' and enter. If you disbelieve, read some books from the 1800's. I noted one of these in WHEN WORLDS COLLIDE (by Wylie and Balmer). English has drifted a bit since then; why couldn't Elvish have done so in a much longer time, given that language is ``alive'' and adapts to the changing world? (The Moria Gate inscription is OLD, folks.) Gandalf even *says* this, if I remember correctly. Brandon decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 CIS 74106,1032 MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time) ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_amap@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark ) Subject: Re: The Peace War Date: 23 Apr 86 23:42:33 GMT > From: Mike.Blackwell@ROVER.RI.CMU.EDU > Yeah, I had a similar idea. How about protecting crucial > installations by building them out of concrete with zillions of > tiny baubles mixed in? Wouldn't work. The surface of the bobbles are just about frictionless. There would be nothing for the concrete to "stick" to, meaning that the bobbles would provide essentially no structural support. The bobbles are incompressible as well, which means they couldn't absorb any of the forces acting through the concrete through deformation. It also seems to me that the compressive fields set up in the concrete at surfaces of the bobbles (tangent to the force placed on them) should cause problems, but concrete is amazingly strong in compression. In short, what you would have would be stronger than honeycombed concrete (and have the same mass) but not nearly as effective as plain old solid concrete. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 86 06:55 EST From: C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Zahn biblio I forgot to quote my source in the file so attribute this to the CONTRAPTION flyer April 18th, SouthField Michigan. It was provided by author so it should be current. BIBLIOGRAPGHY OF TIM ZAHN SHORT STORIES Ernie Analog,9/79 * The Dreamsender " 7/80 A Lingering Death " 12/80 * The Challenge The Space Gamer, 12/80 * The Energy Crisis of 2215 Amazing,3/81 Hollow Victory Analog,3/81 Red THoughts at Morning " 4/81 Fantasy World The Space Gamer,5/81 The Price of Survival Analog, 6/81 * The Giftie Gie Us " 7/81 The Sword's Man The Space Gamer,9/81 Loop Hole Analog,9/81 Raison D'Etre " 10/81 * Job Inaction " 11/81 Houseguest F & SF 1/82 When Johnny comes marching home Analog,1/82 Symmkyn's Edge The Space Gamer,2/82 Origin IA's SFM,2/82 Final Solution Analog,3/82 Pawn's Gambit " " Unitive factor " 5/82 Between a Rock and a High Place " 7/82 The Peaceful Man F & SF 9/82 * Dragon Pax Rigel, Fall '82 Dark Thoughts at Noon Analog,12/82 * The Shadows of Evening F & SF,3/83 * The final Report on the Lifeline Experiment Analog,5/83 The Damocles Mission Ares,Winter'83 Warlord Analog,7/83 Expanded Charter " 9/83 Curtain Call Rigel, summer '83 * The Cassandra Analog,11/83 * Cascade Point " 12/83 Bette Noire " 3/84 * Teamwork " 4/84 Vampire Trap The Fantasy Gamer #4,2/84 * Return to the Fold Analog,9/84 Cordon Sanitaire Alien Stars, Baen Books 1/85 Music Hath Charms Analog,4/85 +The Evidence of Things Not Seen Analog 4/86 +Not Always to the Strong CASCADE POINT & OTHER STORIES NOVELS THE BLACKCOLLAR DAW Books, July '83 A COMING OF AGE Bluejay Books, Feb. '85 COBRA Baen Books, Feb '86 SPINNERET Bluejay Books,Nov. '85 COBRA STRIKE Baen Books, Feb '86 The Talisman MAGIC IN ITHKAR, Volume 4 +BLACKCOLLAR:THE BACKLASH MISSION DAW Books +COBRA III(working title) Baen Books * to be included in CASCADE POINT AND OTHER STORIES, Blue Jay Books, March '86 + sold but not yet Published (possibly On Shelf) ------------------------------ From: hp-pcd!john@caip.rutgers.edu (john) Subject: Re: Re: The giant flying telephone switc Date: 23 Apr 86 16:19:00 GMT >I seem to recall extensive use of slide rules in James Blish's >"Cities In Flight" series, despite The City Fathers being very >large and intelligent computers. Maybe it was because the city fathers were large intelligent computers that they prevented anyone from having anything more powerful than a slip stick. Does anyone know of any early SF references that describe modern calculators? The earliest that I have found was Hari Seldons use of one in Foundation. I would like to know if there are any earlier references. John Eaton !hplabs!hp-pcd!john ------------------------------ From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Parallel-universe travel stories Date: 24 Apr 86 02:01:27 GMT >The Coming of the Quantum Cats >Frederic Pohl / Bantam Spectra / May 1986 > > My recommendation: don't buy it, but if you do, read it only if > you are bored. If you want to read interesting stories about > parallel universes, I suggest you look elsewhere. I happened to like MAN PLUS. I've read NOtB and started on Quantum Cats (--stopped dead.); the ONLY parallel-universe stories I felt were worth anything were some short stories whose names I don't remember (RAM didn't refresh right :-): one by Spider Robinson and anthologized most recently in his MELANCHOLY ELEPHANTS, and most (but not all) of the stories in Niven's THE FLIGHT OF THE HORSE. And neither tried to do what NOtB and QC try to do. I suspect that parallel-universe travel stories are just plain too complicated to be told, unless the author concentrates on one small aspect only of it. (I've had some thoughts on a ``sequel'' to Robinson's story; it would concentrate not on parallel-universe travel but on what I think was happening in his story. Now if only I could write worth a d*mn...) Brandon decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 CIS 74106,1032 MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Apr 86 0933-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #90 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 29 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 90 Today's Topics: Books - Asprin & Bayley & Brust & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Leiber & Schenck (2 msgs) & Tolkien (4 msgs) & Trout & Funny SF (2 msgs), Films - Legend (2 msgs) & The Foundation Trilogy, Miscellaneous - Copyrigths ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: lmi-angel!jmturn@caip.rutgers.edu (James Turner) Subject: Re: Myth Books (Asprin) Date: 24 Apr 86 17:29:34 GMT In the latest Locus, it is reported that Asprin has signed a contract to write 6 more Myth books, starting with "Myth, Inc Link". James Helping Computers With Speech Impediments LISP Machine, Inc. {harvard|cca|mit-eddie}!lmi-angel!jmturn NOTE: I am *not* the James Turner at Imagen ------------------------------ From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: One-shot (?) authors. Date: 24 Apr 86 15:40:09 GMT Bayley has also written: ANNIHILATION FACTOR (half of Ace Double 33710) COLLISION COURSE FALL OF CHRONOPOLIS FOREST OF PELDAIN GARMENTS OF CAEAN GRAND WHEEL PILLARS OF ETERNITY STAR VIRUS (half of Ace Double 78400) ZEN GUN (Several of these were DAW books.) Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl (or ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl) ------------------------------ From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: JHEREG Date: 24 Apr 86 02:43:12 GMT From: pnet01!bnw >>>A writer (name forgotten) wrote (of S. Brust's _Jhereg_): >>From reading the above, one would think (1) that the jhereg plays >> a major role in the book, and (2) that the jhereg is probably an >> interesting alien. Both assumptions are false. > > Number 1 is not false. The conclusion betrays a very superficial > reading of the book. I've not re-read _Jhereg_ in weeks, but I > recall that Loiosh is Vlad's advisor throughout the novel, that he > was of vital import- ance in the conducting of a witchcraft spell, > saved Vlad's life once, pre- vented the Dragon-Jhereg war from > being triggered, and served Vlad as scout, lookout, and messenger. Who said the title was talking about the *animal*? Consider that the second book is YENDI, in which a Dragaeran of the same House figures prominently. I took the name to refer to the most important Dargaeran House in the book: in the case of JHEREG, the House Jhereg was on the verge of ruin, and YENDI was (as I mentioned above) largely about a member of House Yendi. I expect to learn about the House Teckla (besides the ``peasants'' we've heard about so far -- btw, anyone else get the idea that Prince Miklos in BROKEDOWN PALACE was a peasant of the House Teckla during his stay in ``Faerie''? ``Frightened teckla hides in grass'' is obviously relative) in the next book, TECKLA. Brandon decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 CIS 74106,1032 MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 86 11:03:49 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Window in the Sky Actually, it was called Tunnel in the Sky, and Heinlein DID write it. You might want to look up Farmer in the Sky, too. It is on about the same level, and I think I liked it a bit better. ------------------------------ From: nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser) Subject: Heinlein's Future History Date: 23 Apr 86 21:05:47 GMT I had heard about this series of books, and am interested in reading them, but I haven't been able to find out what the complete series is. Could someone on the net please list what books are in this series, and in what order they are in? E.g. Methuselah's Children, Time Enough for Love. Also, I read the Number of the Beast recently, and Lazarus Long from the Future History series shows up. Was this book intended to be part of the series? Where in the order of the books from the series does this one appear? As usual, thanks in advance. Nathan Glasser nathan@mit-eddie.uucp nathan@mit-xx.arpa ------------------------------ From: puff!anich@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Anich) Subject: Fritz Leiber Date: 25 Apr 86 22:03:22 GMT Is Fritz Leiber still alive? Are there any more Fahred and the Grey Mouser stories planned to be published in book form? steve anich ------------------------------ From: jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare) Subject: Re: One-shot (?) authors. (Hilbert Schenk) Date: 25 Apr 86 21:47:38 GMT Hilbert Schenk has published one novel, _At the Eye of the Ocean_, which is only very marginally science fiction. It follows the life of one man born in the early 1800's as he grows to adulthood in pre- civil war New England, and on through several key events in his life and the lives of his wife and several descendants -- all tied intimately to the ocean. The SF (or fantasy) aspect is that he has a quasi-mystical link to the ocean -- he can "read" wind and wave impossibly well, and at a (very) few crucial moments the ocean seems to respond to him. The main concern of the book is his development, and his slow understanding of this gift. Not the easiest reading, but very rich and polished. Incidentally "Wave Rider" is one of my favorite stories: Out where the ocean is empty and wild And the satellites watch from the sky There's a few who remember her name and her run When the wind-driven waves run high. Jordin Kare ------------------------------ From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: One-shot (?) authors. Date: 24 Apr 86 15:40:09 GMT Schenck also wrote AT THE EYE OF THE OCEAN, "The Geometry of Narrative" (ANALOG August 1983), which was nominated for a Hugo, and "The Silicon Muse" (ANALOG September 1984), also nominated for a Hugo. he's probably written other short fiction, but I don't have my reference works handy. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl (or ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl) ------------------------------ From: booter@lll-crg.ARpA (Elaine Richards) Subject: Re: Gandalf Date: 26 Apr 86 01:42:43 GMT My impression is that Gandalf is more related to the Elven people than the humans. Regarding the trilogy itself, it will bear a resemblance to Star Wars or any other epic you may see in the Western World. I investigated the sources of Tolkien's inspiration in fairly good detail. He was a professor of Old and Middle English. I have a BA in Medieval Studies (I can read Chaucer in the original). THe elves are a derivation of the Irish legend about the Tuatha De Danaan. They were a tribe of beautiful and graceful people who emigrated from the general area of the Graeco-Roman Empires to Ireland (the Islands of the Uttermost West). They are mentioned in (I believe) Homers' works. They are the Kings and the Shee folk(!) of Ireland (depending on the teller). Frodo was a Norse warlord. In some versions of his epic, he is referred to as Frodi or Frodhi. The rings and dwarves are, of course, from the Wagnerian epics. These sprang from German folktales and legends. Brunhilde, the brave warrior maiden is a precursor of Eowyn of the Rohan. I have more data lying around the house, but Medievalism can get pretty dry if you don't keep reading Boccacio and Chaucer over and over. E ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 86 10:48:45 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Moria If I remember correctly, this particular gate to Moria bordered on a famous region of Middle-Earth, Eregion, which was inhabited by the Elvensmiths, who later made the Rings of Power. ------------------------------ From: cvl!bhaskar@caip.rutgers.edu (Bhaskar) Subject: Gandalf Date: 25 Apr 86 03:20:37 GMT I am now reading Tolkien's "The Hobbits", having finished with the Trilogy. I had been puzzled by something when I was well into "The Return of the King", but I thought that "The Hobbits" would soon dispel my problem. Now, I am well into this book, and it does not appear that I will find what I sought. I am posting this in the hope that somebody has read the books more carefully than I have, and that he (or she) will know the answer. My question is about Gandalf. Does the author explicitly mention anywhere what type of "being" Gandalf was ? Several species of life are mentioned - hobbits, men, dwarves, elves among them. Into which category did Gandalf fit ? Is Wizard a separate class ? I found only very indirect clues. A suggestive one is that on several occassions the hobbits were given ponies, but Gandalf got a horse. We can also rule out the possibility of Gandalf being an elf, dwarf or goblin on a number of grounds. That leaves man, hobbit or Wizard as the most likely contenders. If Tolkien does say something definite, I would like to know where it is said . I do not have the time to start reading the trilogy all over again. Thanks in advance. P.S. Does anybody see strong parallels with the Star Wars novels ? True, one is set in the past, the other in the future and the Ring and the Force have almost opposite "properties". But in both cases we have a protagonist thrust, willy-nilly into a fine imbroglio. Gandalf - Kenobi , Saruman - Darth Vader , Sauron - Palpatine , Frodo - Luke etc. are a host of what I see as parallels. When I mentioned this to my room-mate, he disagreed strongly. Is my vision distorted ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 86 12:05:56 est From: UFFNER Subject: Re: Inscription on the Gates of Moria The inscription was in Elvish because the doors of the West Gate were designed by Celembrimbor along with a dwarven smith and were meant to symbolize peace and friendship between the two races. (Remarkably enough, I think the doors were made after the the little altercation over the Necklace) But races. (Remarkably enough, I think the doors were made after the anyway, the quote was in Elvish because most of the people who used the Westgate were elves. ------------------------------ From: apollo!johnf@caip.rutgers.edu (John Francis) Subject: Who is Kilgore Trout ? Date: 23 Apr 86 23:46:22 GMT > No discussion of humorous science fiction can pass without mention > of Kurt Vonnegut, Jr, and his pseudonym, Kilgore Trout! I knew Kilgore Trout was a Vonnegut character, but I was under the impression that "Venus on the Half-Shell" (supposedly written by Kilgore Trout) was, in fact, written by somebody completely different (not Vonnegut). Can anybody out there set me straight on this detail ? ------------------------------ From: uokvax!cdrigney@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 23 Apr 86 01:13:00 GMT Another funny book set at a sf convention is _Murdercon_, by Richard Purtill. It opens with: "As I came in the door, two Darth Vaders crossed the lobby, one on either side of a girl in a bright red and yellow beanie topped by a slowly revolving propeller, worn over her Princess Leia hairdo. She wore a dark blue caftan and a surprisingly happy expression considering the company she was keeping." How can you go wrong? Carl Rigney USENET: {ihnp4,allegra!cbosgd}!okstate!uokvax!cdrigney ------------------------------ From: reed!soren@caip.rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 25 Apr 86 03:54:58 GMT I don't think anyone has mentioned *The Princess Bride* by William Golding. Takes everything you ever saw in a fairy tale and turns it upside down. *Highly* recommended. Soren Petersen ------------------------------ From: puff!lishka@caip.rutgers.edu (Christopher Lishka) Subject: Re: Legend Date: 25 Apr 86 19:56:36 GMT I am posting this as a general response to all reviews that can the plot. Didn't any of you catch an article (written by someone else) that talked about how much the film was cut up for U.S. release? Apparently (and this info is from that article) the uncut _Legend_ was released in Europe in '84. Yeah, quite some time ago. The U.S. studio got a hold on it but decided that it wasn't aimed at the right crowd (yeah, the 12-20 teenage group). So they decided to cut it. From what the author of the previous article said, the cut material was stuff that would appeal mostly to older audiences and was not sex and gore. In otherwords, the U.S. studio *ssh*les (and I really hope they are reading this article) took it upon themselves to edit the plot so that it would appeal to a "younger" crowd (I am of that age, and the plot did NOT appeal to me!). So before you can all the inconsitencies in the plot, please realize that what you are seeing is a very hacked up film. Just like _Brazil_. As someone wrote and told me, just like _Buckaroo_Banzai_. It seems that the studio f*cks (and I am using these kind words 'cause I'm mad... hope they're still reading!) think that what a movie is is not what the public wants to see. (Incidentally, _Brazil_ was not ever going to be released in the U.S.A. until Terry Gillam showed it to some L.A critics who thought it so good [and this was the cut version] that they gave it the L.A. critics award for best movie of the year without the movie ever having been released. Naturally the studio had to release it rather than being accused of holding back a wonderful new film). Anyway, I think the problem here is not in the film, it's in the version. Most of us feel that Ridley Scott is a good director (or maybe just some of us) and has made two previous great films: _Alien_ and _Blade_Runner_. Now, it is not everyday that someone comes out with a science fiction film with some actual *meat* behind all the effects, which _Blade_Runner_ had. This is why I think that _Legend_ is probably a good movie. Ridley Scott just isn't that sloppy! Death to any studio exec who cuts a film again! Chri Lishka U.W. Madison p.s. another small studio-cutting bit of trivia: in the film _Psycho_ by Alfred Hitchcock, Janet Leigh was originally shown in the shower with her breasts bare. It seems that the studio did not like it so they edited a black bar over her nude bosom and destroyed the originals. Just another example of studio f*cks not letting a good director do his work (oh, say, just like the original release of Akira Kurosawa's _The_Seven_Samuria_!) ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!john@caip.rutgers.edu (john jacobsen) Subject: Re: Legend Date: 26 Apr 86 00:16:24 GMT > .......So before you can all the inconsitencies in the plot, > please realize that what you are seeing is a very hacked up film. > Just like _Brazil_. As someone wrote and told me, just like > _Buckaroo_Banzai_. Actually, I saw _Brazil_ in Europe about a year ago, and the version they showed in Madison wasn't really 'hacked up'. Some tidbits were removed, (towards the end... e-mail me for when... actually I'm not quite sure anymore) mostly to make it a little shorter (it's a pretty long film). So I wouldn't exactly call _Brazil_ hacked up, just a little spliced. Sorry, Chri. John E. Jacobsen UWisconsin-Madison Academic Comp. Ctr. ------------------------------ From: brueer!gary@caip.rutgers.edu (Gary Saker) Subject: Isaac Asimov - FILM Foundation Trilogy ? Date: 24 Apr 86 17:00:57 GMT Could anyone confirm the rumour that Isaac Asimov's Foundation Trilogy is being made into a film, if this is the case could I have some information on it. i.e U.K. release date, what actors and actresses star in the film etc. I haven't seen any publicity or details just a lot of rumours ! Can anyone help ? Cheers Gary Saker (Brunel University) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 86 11:08:18 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Re:Copyrighted material Fan art? Sure, I've seen a lot of good Star Trek art, including a very accurate picture of a Klingon warship. However, I think an author should ask permission before swiping someone else's characters. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Apr 86 0849-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #91 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 30 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 91 Today's Topics: Books - Chalker & Wilson & Reviewing & Funny SF & Hugo Nominations, Films - Legend (2 msgs) & Editing Films, Television - Tripods, Miscellaneous - Quote Source (2 msgs) & Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 25 Apr 86 07:02:16 GMT Spoiler warning, if you believe that there is anything to be spoiled in any Jack Chalker novel. holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes: >johnf@apollo.uucp (John Francis) writes: >> Oh and a recent one by Jack Chalker called something like >> "And the devil....". I don't rember the title off hand but >> it had Asmodeus as a drunk and had Communist Gnomes. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >That was the second book of the "Dancing Gods" series, "Demons of >the Dancing Gods", by Jack Chalker. That may well be, but the commie gnomes were first introduced in the book "and the Devil will drag you under" in the fifth universe, the one which was a magic-oriented alternative of Earth. The gnomes had surrounded and were burning a house filled with Hippie-oids, who had violated interracial treaties by driving a steel wellshaft down into gnomish territory killing one of the gnomes .... They weren't particularly funny tho. On the other hand, the communist dragon Falameezar in Alan Dean Foster's "Spellsinger" series was pretty amusing, especially if you've seen the mindless evangelistic rant of a newly converted marxist. (Or had one for a roomie.) Hutch ------------------------------ From: gladys!bob@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob White) Subject: Re: F. Paul Wilson Date: 26 Apr 86 04:46:54 GMT > From: jon@csvax.caltech.edu (Jonathan P. Leech) > Can anyone tell me what F. Paul Wilson has written? I have > found only 2 books (_Healer_ and _An_Enemy_Of_The_State) and would > like more if they exist. He has also written _Wheels Within Wheels_, which is a prequel to _Healer_. It gives the background for the political climate, especially the Restructurist movement and why it split off from the Federation. Bob White 5123 Ramillie Run Winston-Salem, NC 27106 ihnp4!burl!gladys!bob ------------------------------ From: edison!dca@caip.rutgers.edu (David C. Albrecht) Subject: Re: STOP! ENOUGH! Date: 23 Apr 86 14:00:50 GMT > It is excruciatingly unenlightening to read everyone's all time > favorite list of books ... IF all you are going to do is list > their titles. If you must broadcast your preferences to the > world, please try to shed a little more light on your opinions. > Otherwise, if I simply want to look at titles, I can always go to > the bookstore! I don't know. Generally I feel that no matter how much information is provided in a review it always ends up boiling down to "you like it or you don't". More important is how similar the tastes of a reviewer are to your own. People listing titles provides in minimal information books they considered exceptional. If you haven't heard of the book it gives you something to look for. If you already know you like some of the books they listed you might very well like ones they listed you haven't read. If they list books that in general left you cold then you probably shouldn't waste your time bothering with the books on the list you haven't read. David Albrecht ------------------------------ From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu (A Andrews) Subject: Funny (?) SF Date: 25 Apr 86 00:04:03 GMT If you like funny SF on a regular basis, ANALOG usually comes through most every month. The mid-December, 1984, issue carried nothing but spoofs. I especially enjoyed the listing of SF cons that had Tucker as MC, every one. Mike Banks had a funny unsigned page advertising a new game, and yours truly had a short piece on micro-black holes. "Didactics of Mystique" by Flash Richardson was quite good. Best recommendation for humor: Bob Asprin's MYTH books. arlan ------------------------------ From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: **HUGO NOMINATIONS** (Unofficial) Date: 24 Apr 86 14:00:44 GMT Here are the (unofficial) Hugo nominations for 1986, courtesy of LAN'S LANTERN (and yes, joan hanke-woods is all lower-case): NOVEL Greg Bear--BLOOD MUSIC David Brin--THE POSTMAN C. J. Cherryh--CUCKOO'S EGG Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle--FOOTFALL Orson Scott Card--ENDER'S GAME NOVELLA C. J. Cherryh--"Scapegoat" (ALIEN STARS, ed. by Betsy Mitchell, Baen Books) Kim Stanley Robinson--"Green Mars" (IASFM Sep 85) Robert Silverberg--"Sailing to Byzantium" (IASFM Feb 85) James Tiptree, Jr.--"The Only Neat Thing To Do" (F&SF Oct 85) Roger Zelazny--"24 Views of Mt. Fuji, by Hokusai" (IASFM Jul 85) NOVELETTE Michael Bishop--""A Gift from the Graylanders" (IASFM Sep 85) Orson Scott Card--"The Fringe" (F&SF Oct 85) Harlan Ellison--"Paladin of the Lost Hour" (TWILIGHT ZONE Dec 85) William Gibson and Michael Swanwick--"Dogfight" (OMNI Jul 85) George R. R. Martin--"Portraits of His Children" (IASFM Nov 85) SHORT STORY John Crowley--"Snow" (OMNI Nov 85) Frederik Pohl--"Fermi and Frost" (IASFM Jan 85) Bruce Sterling--"Dinner in Audoghast" (IASFM May 85) Howard Waldroop--"Flying Saucer Rock & Roll" (OMNI Jan 85) William F. Wu--"Hong's Bluff" (OMNI Mar 85) NON-FICTION Brian Aldiss--THE PALE SHADOW OF SCIENCE Algis Budrys--BENCHMARKS: GALAXY BOOKSHELF Perry Chapdelaine--JOHN W. CAMPBELL LETTERS, Vol. I Harlan Ellison--AN EDGE IN MY VOICE Tom Weller--SCIENCE MADE STUPID Douglas E. Winter--FACES OF FEAR: ENCOUNTERS WITH CREATORS OF MODERN HORROR DRAMATIC PRESENTATION BACK TO THE FUTURE BRAZIL COCOON ENEMY MINE LADYHAWKE PRO EDITOR Terry Carr Judy-Lynn Del Rey Ed Ferman Shawna McCarthy Stanley Schmidt PRO ARTIST Frank Kelly Freas Dom Maitz Rowena Morrell Barclay Shaw Michael Whelan FAN ARTIST Brad Foster Steve Fox joan hanke-woods Bill Rotsler Stu Shiffman SEMI-PRO ZINE FANTASY REVIEW INTERZONE LOCUS SCIENCE FICTION CHRONICLE SCIENCE FICTION REVIEW FANZINE ANVIL (Charlotte Proctor) GREATER COLUMBIA FANTASY COSTUMERS GUILD NEWSLETTER (Bobby Gear) HOLIER THAN THOU (Robbi and Marty Cantor) LAN'S LANTERN (George "Lan" Laskowski) UNIVERSAL TRANSLATOR (Susan Bridges) (not yet confirmed that 4 issues have been published) FAN WRITER Richard Geis Mike Glyer Arthur Hlavaty Dave Langford Patrick Neilson-Hayden Don D'Ammassa JOHN W. CAMPBELL AWARD Karen Joy Fowler Guy Gavriel Kay Carl Sagan Melissa Scott Tad Williams David Zindell Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl (or ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl) ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 86 14:39:16 EST From: KLOUDA@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Legend I've waited over a year for Legend to be released in this country and I must say that I'm a little disappointed with it. It's a good movie, good enough anyways. It probably will not be a blockbuster though. The makeup was excellent and the setting and cinematography was outstanding but the pacing is too slow and the characters are unbelievable. The only character you feel you get to know is Tim Curry who plays the bad guy. Perhaps it's because they (the movie people) cut out over 30 minutes of the film when they brought it over from Europe. The origional soundtrack was by Jerry Goldsmith (I believe) but was replaced in the American version by Tangerine Dream. I find all this to be a bit upsetting and that may alter my view of the movie but I still feel that it is a movie worth spending 2 or maybe 3 dollars for. ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: LEGEND Date: 24 Apr 86 18:08:08 GMT LEGEND A film review by Mark R. Leeper Capsule review: Ridley Scott does a live-action fairy tale that visually matches the illustrations in classic books of fairy tales. The pacing occasionally flags but visually the film is all you expect from the man who made BLADERUNNER. Tim Curry as the Prince of Darkness in make-up by Rob Bottin is particularly effective. There is a style of traditional British fantasy--one I don't general care for--with the wood folk. There are faerie and wood sprites, unicorns and goblins. Their stories are recounted in the Blue Fairy Book OR THE CRIMSON FAIRY BOOK or one of those. This kind of fantasy rarely makes it into live-action except perhaps in an occasional film of MIDSUMMER NIGHT'S DREAM. More often this faerie world shows up in animated film for the obvious reason that it is a lot easier to put into film in animation. LEGEND is the first film to create the enchanted faerie world in live- action. Lili is a princess, but she loves to run through an enchanted forest where she meets her platonic love, Jack, a boy of the forest. Jack knows the secrets of the forest and takes Lili to see the last two unicorns. Lili cannot resist petting the unicorns and in doing so makes them vulnerable to the Prince of Darkness. These unicorns, it seems, were all that kept the world out of eternal darkness and unending winter. Jack must go off in search of the horn of the slain unicorn. It is a common fairy story and is often less than enthralling. Scott's sets in LEGEND are almost as detailed as his sets were for BLADERUNNER, though in most cases the sets are somewhat easier to create here. If anything the sets are over-cluttered with fantasy touches. Every scene looks like it could be a illustration from a book of fairy tales, with one exception. Scott's unicorns are horses with horns. Scott has either given in to the popular misconception of bad modern fantasy artists or has never bothered to look up "unicorn" in the dictionary. (A unicorn is supposed to have the tail of a lion and the hindquarters of a stag.) The make-up effects were done by Rob Bottin, who did an excellent job with the werewolves in THE HOWLING. Some of the make-up effects work well in LEGEND, particularly in the make-up for some of the elves and in most scenes of the Prince of Darkness. However, our first scene of the Prince of Darkness has him in the dark but painted with glowing black-light paint and that effect is most unconvincing, as are some of the witch make-up jobs early in the film. LEGEND has been embroiled in problems over its release. It was intended for 1985 release, but seemingly ran into problems, was re-edited and released in two versions. In Britain it had a score by Jerry Goldsmith and was a half an hour longer than the American version with a score by Tangerine Dream. Both film scores were played on a local radio station. The Goldsmith score was lighter and more dream-like while the Tangerine Dream score had more power and better built a dark mood for the scenes of the Prince of Darkness. LEGEND comes as close as I have seen to being a live-action version of a Disney cartoon. At times its pacing flags but it is always a spectacle for the eye, much as a Disney cartoon. It rates a +1 on the -4 to +4 scale. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: hitchens@uo.utexas.edu (Ron Hitchens, Sun Wiz) Subject: Re: Legend Date: 26 Apr 86 10:41:13 GMT > lishka@puff.UUCP (Christopher Lishka) says: > p.s. another small studio-cutting bit of trivia: in the film > _Psycho_ by Alfred Hitchcock, Janet Leigh was originally shown in > the shower with her breasts bare. It seems that the studio did > not like it so they edited a black bar over her nude bosom and > destroyed the originals. Just another example of studio f*cks not > letting a good director do his work (oh, say, just like the > original release of Akira Kurosawa's _The_Seven_Samuria_!) I don't think so. I saw Janet Leigh on Larry King (interview show on CNN) recently and she said she was never photographed in the nude at all for Psycho. She wore a body stocking (made from the material used for sexy stage costumes, which seems to be see-through but isn't). I think this is just a bit of folklore, a testament to the masterful editing of that scene. You don't see nearly as much as you think you do. I too wish that studios would pay a little less attention to demographics and place a little more faith in the artists making the films, especially those with proven track records like Gilliam and Scott. I don't see much hope for improvement, not so long as the studios control finances: He who has the gold makes the rules. Louis B. Meyer is gone, the studios are now being run by a bunch of pinstripe geeks with IBM PC's and VisiCalc. Ron Hitchens U. of Texas @ Austin Computer Science hitchens@ut-sally.UUCP hitchens@uo.cs.utexas.edu ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 86 14:39:16 EST From: KLOUDA@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Tripods The third season of Tripods will NOT be made. This is what the BBC has announced lately. I am not sure but I believe it is Michael Grade who decided not to produce the third season. Maybe it will be picked up by someone else? Wishful thinking. ------------------------------ From: ags@pucc-h (Dave Seaman) Subject: Re: Quotes Date: 24 Apr 86 19:49:06 GMT spencer@usc-oberon.UUCP (Randy Spencer) writes: >> My roommate and I enjoy driving each other nuts by throwing ST >> quotes at each other. It's horribly aggravating when you KNOW >> that you've heard a line, but can't remember the show or the >> situation. For what it's worth, > > ... many quotes omitted ... >> 37. "He knows, Doctor. He knows." Actually this is from "Arena" when Spock observes that Kirk is gathering the raw materials needed to manufacture gunpowder. I recently saw a story on the BBC series "Blake's Seven" in which Blake and his arch-nemesis, each with a companion, engaged in a similar test of survival. The episode was titled "Duel". Both the Star Trek and Blake's Seven stories were apparently inspired by the short story "Arena" by Frederick Brown, first published in 1944, in which the alien was a red globe with retractable tentacles and strong telepathic powers. This story was also published in a collection known as the "Science Fiction Hall of Fame." I don't remember the publisher but I can look it up if anyone is interested. Dave Seaman pur-ee!pucc-h!ags ------------------------------ From: ecn-aa!morrism@caip.rutgers.edu (The Music Man) Subject: Re: Quotes Date: 24 Apr 86 23:10:38 GMT ags@pucc-h.UUCP (Dave Seaman) writes: >spencer@usc-oberon.UUCP (Randy Spencer) writes: >> 37. "He knows, Doctor. He knows." > >Actually this is from "Arena" when Spock observes that Kirk is >gathering the raw materials needed to manufacture gunpowder. Yes, and No. I hate to do this,but this was also in another story also. I can not remember the title of it, but I remember Bones got an overdose of some drug. It drove him mad, he went through a time portal and after recovering he changed history so that Germany won WWII. I also recall Spock & The Captain went back to stop him. Kirk fell in love with the key factor to history (I.E. A role played by Joan Collins.) and stopped Bones from saving her life from a car accident. The Doctor madly said: "I could have saved her life Jim! Do you know what you've Done???!!!!!" Then came Spock's line. To which this long article is about. Mitchell J. Morrison UUCP: {decvax, ihnp4, seismo, ucbvax}!pur-ee!morrism ------------------------------ From: trwrba!pro@caip.rutgers.edu (Peter R. Olpe) Subject: Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster Date: 25 Apr 86 00:39:21 GMT Has anyone out there ever tried to make a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster? For those of you who don't know what it is, the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy says "that the effect of drinking a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster is like having your brains smashed out by a slice of lemon wrapped round a large gold brick." Any ideas on how to make one???? Pete olpe UUCP: {devax|ucbvax|ihnp4}!trwrb!trwrba!pro ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Apr 86 0917-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #92 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 30 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 92 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Chalker & Crowley & Laumer & Tolkien (3 msgs), Television - Buck Rogers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: edison!dca@caip.rutgers.edu (David C. Albrecht) Subject: Re: With a Tangled Skein Date: 25 Apr 86 13:41:30 GMT I just finished reading With_A_Tangled_Skein. My general impression was that it was somewhat worse than the other two. As usual, Piers is lousy at real seeming characters and produces male/female relationships that are more like fairy tales than real relationships. The first couple of chapters were so sickeningly sweet and stupid that I had trouble keeping from gagging; after I managed to wade through them it got much better. His reference to a certain Senator from Massachusetts as a tongue in check plot segment was annoying. Even more annoying was his incorporation into the plot famous puzzles like the missionaries and the cannibals and the counterfeit coin. The female characters in the book are generally stereotypical; his treatment of the female character is almost as bad as Heinlen's. In general, if you are a devoted Anthony fan you will probably want to read it. It's probably on a par with some of the later Xanth books, nothing special but not deadly dull either. David Albrecht ------------------------------ From: decuac!avolio@caip.rutgers.edu (Frederick M. Avolio) Subject: Well of Souls by Chalker (Summary of Replies) Date: 26 Apr 86 19:28:07 GMT I wrote: >Please, can anyone give me the name of the author of the 'Well of >Souls' books. Also, titles and opinions of them? Thanks. If you >would, send mail to me and I will summarize to the net. Thanks to all who responded. Here is the promised summary. From: casemo!bill Bill Jensen, The Well of Souls books are by Jack Chalker. In order, they are: 1. Midnight at the Well of Souls ( stands alone ) 2. Exiles at the Well of Souls ( part 1 of the Wars of the Well ) 3. Quest for the Well of Souls ( part 2 of the Wars of the Well ) 4. The Return of Nathan Brazil 5. Twilight at the Well of Souls The first book stands alone pretty well, since it was only intended to be one book. DelRey asked Jack for sequels since it was a very good seller. The next two go together, and so do the last two. I think that the series as a whole is fun to read, it's essentially space opera. I find most of Jack's stuff to be the same sort of thing. For me as well, part of the fun was seeing the names of various Washington area SF fans and writers popping up in strange places in the books. Jack has been a fan a lot longer than he's been writing. From: Chris Torek The first book stands very well by itself. In fact I think the series would be stronger without the other two `books' (each split into two paperbacks because of their length), but I *do* like the ultimate ending. It is perhaps interesting to note that Chalker was unmarried at the time that he wrote _Midnight_, and married for at least a year by the time he finished _Twilight_. From: decvax!genrad!panda!talcott!bu-cs!bucsb!odin All of them are good, and the conclusion is satisfying. Hero, however is not well enough developed as a character, his mystery is not enough to account for the paucity of data we have on him. Please note that his other series 'The Four Lords of The Diamond' is quite good too. From: seismo!rochester!ritcv!iav1917 (Alan I. Vymetalik) You're gonna get swamped with this one. I'll help you out a bit. First of all, the author is Jack L. Chalker. Absolutely one of my all time favorites! He writes with a clarity and density few other authors have ever managed. He also writes A LOT of novels. Ok, how about opinions? Well, I generally do not like to do that. Reason: science fiction is one of those personal things. What's one man's fantasy or space opera is another man's garbage. However, as far the series goes, in whole it is a great reading experience leaving a lot of food for thought. Individually, Vols 1-3 and maybe the last half of Vol 5 are recommended. The series opens yet another twist on the old plot "where did we come from and who the heck is in charge." That's the underlying feeling but the novels are the stories of the individual characters and their adaptation, trials, and triumphs in a place called "The Well World". As the jacket blurb on "Midnight" says 'Who was Nathan Brazil and what was he doing on the Well World? Entered by a thousand unsuspected gateways - built by a race lost in the clouds of time - the planet its dwellers called the Well World turned beings of every kind into something else. There spacefarer Nathan Brazil found himself companioned by a batman, an amorous female centaur, and a mermaid - all once as human as he ... For at the heart of the bizarre planet lay the goal of every being that had ever lived - and Nathan Brazil and his comrades were ... lucky? ... enough to find it!" A great stage for a story, huh? The series was awarded the "Hamilton-Brackett Memorial Award". Wow this is getting long. You may be interested in reading other novels by Jack Chalker: The best list I've been able to compile is: The Web of the Chozen And the Devil Will Drag You Under A Jungle of Stars Dancers in the Afterglow The Saga of the Well World (see above) The Four Lords of the Diamond: (science fiction) Book 1 - Lilith: A Snake in the Grass Book 2 - Cerberus: A Wolf in the Fold Book 3 - Charon: A Dragon at the Gate Book 4 - Medusa: A Tiger by the Tail The Dancing Gods (fantasy series) Book 1 - The River of the Dancing Gods Book 2 - Demons of the Dancing Gods Book 3 - Vengence of the Dancing Gods The Soul Rider Series: (fantasy/sci-fantasy) Book 1 - Spirits of Flux and Anchor Book 2 - Empires of Flux and Anchor Book 3 - Masters of Flux and Anchor Book 4 - The Birth of Flux and Anchor (foundation novel to first 3) Downtiming the Night Side The Identity Matrix The Devil's Voyage A War of Shadows These are not quite in chronological order but it's as complete list as I know of. I have personally read all but Soul Rider #4 (just bought it) and The Devil's Voyage (a more mystery/suspense than sci-fi, I think) and Th Identity Matrix (I'm almost done!). As you can see, I happen to like and admire this particular author. I hope this helps out. I figured I'd tack on his book list since other people will probably just list the Well of Souls series and there is such a better and larger body of work by this author that should also be explored. From: seismo!ihnp4!ihuxl!gandalf, Ralph Schurman I remember enjoying these books enormously while I was reading them (in early 1980) and prowling the local bookshops daily in a quasi- deranged state when I found out that ~RoNB~ wasn't the final volume. I haven't given them a second reading, partly because of the sagas length and partly because there is always so much new stuff to get to (including more Chalker - e.g. the "4 Lords of the Diamond" series; the "Dancing Gods" series; and the "Soul Rider" series), and the intervening time has clouded my memory of the plot so I'll just says that it's wonderfully complicated and throw in some teasers. (I hate spoilers anyway) The first book's main character, Nathan Brazil, may or may not be God. The second and third book's main character is Mavra Chang - a technologically augmented special agent. Other major characters include Obie - a supercomputer, and Dr. Zinder - who learns enough about the nature of the universe to invent a machine which seriously threatens its existence. The fourth and fifth books bring Nathan and Mavra together to deal with the Wagnerian question of whether or not the universe should be turned off! Chalker likes to explore & explode sexual & racial stereotypes by creating situations where the characters change gender and species. (Although this seems to be becoming an obsession with him lately - e.g. _Downtiming the Nightside_) There is a lot of fetishism and other kinks in the saga which some people may find offensive. The Well World itself is divided into many hexagonal regions of widely varying environments, each populated by some sapient species, and each with its own laws of physics. There are those people who can't look at a hex map (not a synonym for core dump in this case) without thinking - Wargame! - and for them there is a Well of Souls game. From Mayfair games I think. If it hasn't been obvious I recommend the saga, and all of Chalker's work. It's exciting, thought provoking stuff although individual character development sometimes suffers due to his preferred "cast of thousands". Fred @ DEC Ultrix Applications Center INET: avolio@decuac.DEC.COM UUCP: {decvax,seismo,cbosgd}!decuac!avolio ------------------------------ From: ides!kimi@caip.rutgers.edu (Kimiye Tipton) Subject: Re: "Favorite SF" Poll (really John Crowley) Date: 24 Apr 86 16:21:38 GMT > alfke@csvax.caltech.edu writes: >>Hardest to put down: "Little, Big" by John Crowley > > I've been meaning to ask about this book, although it's hardly > SF. But since you brought it up... > I guess what I really want to know is what you saw in this > book, and should I read his other book(s), or will I find them > more of the same? You should definitely read ENGINE SUMMER. It qualifies a little more as "science fiction", and is easier to follow than LITTLE, BIG. It is "more of the same", but if you had read it first, you might have found LITTLE a better experience. What I saw in LITTLE, BIG? A world more interesting than any I can hallucinate. I prefer this dream world to that of Gene Wolfe, if only because it is more benign. For a John Crowley story perhaps more to your techno-taste, look for "Snow" in Omni magazine--I think the November '85 issue. It has been nominated for a Nebula. And what I want to know is what new stuff is coming from Crowley--anyone have a clue? Kimiye Tipton Maitland, FL USA USENET: ihnp4!ides!kimi CORNET: 754-6472 (305-660-6472) ------------------------------ From: bolotin@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: Warning: Lark's vomit Date: 25 Apr 86 07:23:00 GMT > From: Hank Shiffman >> From: stephen@datacube >> Being a little miffed, I decided to post the following sleazy >> bit of marketing: >> >> I was at my local WaldenBooks today, and saw a new Retief novel, >> "Retief and the PanGalactic Pageant of Pulchitrude", on the >> shelf. After purchasing this novel, I discovered the title >> referred to a relatively poor short story, and the rest was the >> novel "Retief's Ransom", ... > > I got caught by this one as well. This is the second time Baen > has pulled this stunt with a "new" Retief book. ... > > In future, I plan to avoid anything published by Baen. I can't sit by and see a publisher maligned. Laumer's books (especially the Retief books) have ALWAYS been like this! Laumer seems to love re-packaging his stories to fool unwary buyers. Be alert, but watch for the name "Laumer"; not the publisher "Bean". Russel Dalenberg ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Lindor) Subject: Re: Tolkien, Moria West-gate inscription, Legolas Date: 26 Apr 86 07:56:55 GMT Oops. I have no idea why I wrote this: > Appositives are not much used in written Elvish. when I really meant that ambiguous phrases, especially those needing something like the English comma to set them off from surrounding text, occur rather rarely in most written text, if only because scribes are careful to avoid them. That is just what I get for writing in haste, I suppose. Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1415) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ From: gds@sri-spam.ARPA (Greg Skinner) Subject: Re: Gandalf Date: 27 Apr 86 02:49:02 GMT bhaskar@cvl.UUCP (Bhaskar) writes: > My question is about Gandalf. Does the author explicitly mention > anywhere what type of "being" Gandalf was ? Several species of > life are mentioned - hobbits, men, dwarves, elves among them. Into > which category did Gandalf fit ? Is Wizard a separate class ? > > I found only very indirect clues. A suggestive one is that on > several occassions the hobbits were given ponies, but Gandalf got > a horse. We can also rule out the possibility of Gandalf being an > elf, dwarf or goblin on a number of grounds. That leaves man, > hobbit or Wizard as the most likely contenders. > > If Tolkien does say something definite, I would like to know where > it is said . I do not have the time to start reading the trilogy > all over again. I do not have the books in front of me, so this may not be exact, but it is either while Gandalf and Pippin were riding to Minas Tirith or when they got there that Gandalf explained who he was. He states (paraphrased) that he is known as Mithrandir in the South, Gandalf in the North, Tharkun (??) by the Dwarves (although I never heard any dwarves of Middle-Earth ever call him that), Olorin in the days when the world was young, and to the East he did not go. This suggests that his origins were beyond that of Middle-Earth, particularly in Aman. In the Silmarillion, in the Valaquenta chapter, there is a short paragraph at the end telling about Olorin, a Maia, who studied long under Nienna and learned patience, after which he went out from Aman and aided the peoples of Middle-Earth, always bringing happiness to take away the darkness. This is the most accurate origin of Gandalf I have ever read. Somewhere else in the Silmarillion (maybe in the chapter of The Rings of Power and the Third Age) it is suggested that Gandalf might have been Manwe (King of the Valar) in disguise, but that is highly unlikely. gregbo ------------------------------ From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Moria gate (again) Date: 26 Apr 86 00:08:00 GMT BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU writes: >knowing the dwarves..... Someone out there probably knows the >reason the message was in elven without having to go look it up -- >so? The dwarves had the mithril, but the elves knew how to use it. So they hired the making of the West-gate out to an elf of Hollin (when the West-gate looked out upon the fruitful land of Hollin, home of High-Elves). The full inscription contains the author's signature (the elf, not Tolkien), but I don't remember it and can't look it up. (Elves frequently came to Moria for mithril and other metals and gems, via the West-gate.) Brandon decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 CIS 74106,1032 MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time) ------------------------------ From: mcomp!dixon@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Buck Rogers Date: 24 Apr 86 02:41:00 GMT >In another episode (the one where all the pilots get sick - >starring Jack Palance as Kalil), they dig up a retired pilot played >by none other than Buster Crabbe. Buck is talking to Buster about >being careful on the upcoming mission: > >Buster: "I've been flying since before you were born." >Buck: "I don't think so." (referring to the 500 year sleep) >Buster: "I do" (obviously a meta-reference to BC playing BR in the > old serials.) Unless my memory is failing (parity errors) or my ears 'bit picked', the character that BC played was a "Commander Gordon". No first name was given. Could this possibly be a reference to Buster's _other_ serial hero, Flash? Carrington Dixon UUCP: infoswx!mcomp!dixon ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Apr 86 0944-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #93 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 30 Apr 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 93 Today's Topics: Books - Herbert & Moorcock & Stasheff & Tolkien (2 msgs) & Wilson & Funny SF & Paperback Book Release Dates, Miscellaneous - Copyrights & Quotes & Hugo Nominations ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun 27 Apr 86 14:24:41-EDT From: Daniel Burstein Subject: re: projections in past sf-novels that didn't quite make Subject: it.... from :21st Century Sub, by Frank Herbert scenario: Ramsey, Sparrow, and Garcia are aboard an advanced submarine in a WWIII type situation, heading towards the Soviet coast. They've just discovered that one of their radio tubes has been modified to send out a tracking signal so that the bad guys can find them. They are now taking apart the console: Sparrow checked it on a balance scale. "Right on." He replaced the tube, said, "You know, when I was in high school they were saying that someday they'd run systems like this with transistors and printed circuits." "They did for a while," said Garcia. "Then we got into sweep circuits," said Sparrow. He pulled out an octode cummulator tube, read off the code, checked the weight. "We could still get by with the lighter stuff if weren't for the high atmospheric pressures." He went on to another tube. "What we need is a dialectric as tough as plasteel." "Or an armistice," said Garcia. ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!cccallan@caip.rutgers.edu (Allan McKillop) Subject: Re: Eternal Champion Date: 28 Apr 86 01:59:57 GMT >A while ago, somebody mentioned a series of books written by >Michael Moorcock based on his "Eternal Champion" concept. Having >just finished the Elric Saga, I would be very interested if someone >would post a list of the books that make up the series... Here is a list of all the Eternal Champion stuff the Moorcock has written so far (I think. It is all the stuff I have ever found). Some of the Elric books have been printed under other names (The Singing Citadel and Stealer of Souls are the two that I have found) that do not correspond directly to any of the present Elric books on the market. Also, the first three of the Corum books are published under the title of The Swords Trilogy and the last three under the title of The Chronicles of Corum. If anyone else out there knows of other Eternal Champion books, I would be greatful if he/she would either send me the name or post information. Erekose The Eternal Champion Ulrik: Phoenix in Obsidian (The Silver Warriors) Elric: Elric of Melnibone The Sailor on the Seas of Fate The Weird of the White Wolf The Vanishing Tower The Bane of the Black Sword Stormbringer Elric at the End of Time Hawkmoon: The Jewel in the Skull The Mad God's Amulet The Sword of the Dawn The Runestaff Count Brass The Champion of Garathorm The Quest for Tanelorn Corum: The Knight of the Swords The Queen of the Swords The King of the Swords The Bull and the Spear The Oak and the Ram The Sword and the Stallion Allan McKillop ...{ucbvax,lll-crg}!ucdavis!deneb!cccallan (UUCP) ...ucdavis!deneb!cccallan@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 0 0 00:00:00 CDT From: Subject: Mini-review of new Warlock book (with mini-spoilers!) THE WARLOCK WANDERING by Christoper Stasheff Ace Science Fiction, 1986, 297 pages. The up-and-down Warlock series is up again. Rod and Gwen Gallowglass (without the kids this time) go gallivanting through time and space, joining some of the characters from the novel ESCAPE VELOCITY. This book avoids most of the problems suffered by THE WARLOCK ENRAGED, and although it's a bit talky in spots (especially in the first third of the book), it's a real page-turner. (Someone on the net recently said that Stasheff was a poor SF writer but a great storyteller; THE WARLOCK WANDERING certainly supports that assertion.) It look like Stasheff is finally starting to shape events toward the grand destiny of the planet Gramarye that he has hinted at since the first book; this is all to the good, since I've been afraid that we would be subjected to an indefinite number of carbon-copy adventures of the Gallowglasses without anything really happening to advance the overall story. Fortunately, it looks like Stasheff has avoided that trap. I rate THE WARLOCK WANDERING +3 on the -4 to +4 scale. For comparison, here is how I rate the other books in the series: THE WARLOCK IN SPITE OF HIMSELF +4 KING KOBOLD 0 THE WARLOCK UNLOCKED +3 KING KOBOLD REVIVED +1 ESCAPE VELOCITY +3 THE WARLOCK ENRAGED 0 And by the way, the pre-title page lists the books in the series, including: THE WARLOCK IS MISSING (coming September 1986.) marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa) ------------------------------ From: sphinx.UChicago!see1@caip.rutgers.edu (Ellen Seebacher) Subject: Re: Speak, friend and enter Date: 26 Apr 86 00:16:17 GMT >Quenya bears roughly the same relationship to Westron (the common >tongue of men in the third age) as Latin does to English; Not really. Westron was a descendant of the language of the Numenoreans, Adu^naic, which was in turn derived from the languages of the three houses of Men during the First Age, with _some_ Elvish influences...probably from the languages of the Avari (which had diverged quite a bit from Quenya and Sindarin), during the time before they came West, with a little Sindarin thrown in through the three Ages. Both the time element and the lack of Quenya influences on Westron make this a weak analogy. >anyone who has tried translating Latin will recognize Gandalf's >confusion and sympathize with it. Maybe I've got you too out-of-context here, but remember Gandalf was a Maia, and as such well-acquainted with the language of the Light Elves. I don't think his difficulty was in translation, only in interpretation. Ellen Keyne Seebacher Univ. of Chicago Comp Ctr. ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!see1 ------------------------------ From: szy@gcc-milo.ARPA (Steven J Szymanski ) Subject: Re: Gandalf Date: 27 Apr 86 17:11:05 GMT bhaskar@cvl.UUCP (Bhaskar) writes: >My question is about Gandalf. Does the author explicitly mention >anywhere what type of "being" Gandalf was ? .... If Tolkien does >say something definite, I would like to know where it is said . I >do not have the time to start reading the trilogy all over again. The answer to your question is not in _The_Hobbit_ but rather in _The_Silmarillion_. In it, Tolkien states that Gandalf was one of "the Istari, whom Man called Wizards", who "were messengers sent by the Lords of the West to contest the power of Sauron". While I can not provide quotes to support it, it is my impression that the Istari were yet another class of Maiar (who correspond roughly to Angels/Demons in JRRT's mythos). The Balrog who Gandalf fought under Moria was of another flavor of Maiar. While I recognize that _The_Silmariallion_ is difficult reading in places, I strongly recommend it if you are interested in understanding the Rings Trilogy in more detail (for instance, it also explains the significance of their taking the boats to the West at the end of the story, and who Elbereth is that her name caries such power). Steven J Szymanski uucp: seismo!harvard!gcc-milo!szy ------------------------------ From: reed!soren@caip.rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen) Subject: Re: F. Paul Wilson Date: 26 Apr 86 19:52:47 GMT >From: Cate3.EIS@Xerox.COM > There was another book, something like "Wheels within Wheels", >and a number of short stories published in Analog through the >seventies. His stories are fun. "Healer" is the expanded version >of "Pard" which was published in Analog. He often tries to make >the point of the best government is that which governs least. I would replace "often tries to make the point. . ." with "seldom resists the temptation to ham-handedly moralize", otherwise, I would agree with the above. He is a fairly good writer, whose quality is inversely proportional to the amount of politics he injects into the storyline (I disagree with him, isn't it obvious). He has a story called *The Teri* in one of the *Binary Stars* which is excellent. Soren Petersen ------------------------------ From: rtech!bobm@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Mcqueer) Subject: Re: And Still More Funny/Humorous SF (ASTRA & FLONDRIX and Subject: others) Date: 27 Apr 86 02:47:16 GMT > ASTRA & FLONDRIX, Seamus ????. True SF erotica/porn (no human > involved). Probably not arousing to our species, but damned > funny. Seamus Cullen. And there ARE human characters in addition to the elves, dwarves, witches, etc. I have been watching this discussion to see if anybody else had ever read this. It has to be some of the most inventive pornography ever written. I've never been 100% sure this book wasn't one of those obscure jokes by some well known author writing under a pseudonym. It isn't what I'd call terrific writing style, but it isn't badly written, and it is definitely the product of a very demented mind. Imagine Phillip Jose Farmer on acid writing high fantasy for Hustler. There's been some good recommendations here. I'll second Douglas Adam's stuff, the earlier Retief stories, Jack Chalker's "And the Devil Will Drag You Under", Niven's "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex", "Venus on the Halfshell", Avram Davidson's "Peregrine" stories, Harrison's "Stainless Steel Rat", "The Flying Sorcerers", Shea and Wilson's "Illuminatus" trilogy, "Bored of the Rings" (although inconsistent, and very dated in many places), Niven's "Draco's Tavern" stories, and "Fantasia Mathematica" (be sure to read "The Devil and Simon Flagg"). I don't think anyone's mentioned: Larry Niven's "Svetz" stories - you'll find them in the collection "Get a Horse". I believe an earlier edition was titled "There's a Wolf in my Time Machine". These are time-travel stories with a definite humorous slant. I found them very entertaining. Ellison when he is being funny is VERY funny. "How's the Night Life on Cissalda?", "New York Review of the Bird", "Street Scene" (w Keith Laumer) and "Up Christopher to Madness" (with Avram Davidson) spring to mind. Of course, a lot of Ellison isn't fantasy or SF, but he doesn't seem to be able to convince publishers of that. And I like him, whatever you want to call what he writes. "The Borribles", by Michael De Larrabetti (I am almost certain I mangled the spelling of his name, but I don't have the book handy). This is an inventive little fantasy work, very well crafted. It is the sort of fantasy work that mainstream book clubs like to cluck over to show that they're being broad minded, but doesn't suffer from the terminal "charm" usually present in those works. Its story line sounds like it could: borribles, you see, are the children nobody pays attention to - they grow pointed ears, never grow up, and live in the sewers beneath the city. However, Mr. D. (I won't mangle the name a second time) manages to tread exactly the right line. This isn't exclusively humorous like some of those mentioned above, but it definitely has some droll elements. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Apr 86 20:28 EST From: Andrew Sigel Subject: Paperback release dates New books often come in and sell out of bookstores very quickly, and most stores are poor about reordering these books. This especially goes for the chain stores which, as they get more and more computerized, they also get increasingly less flexible. (Employees can't get away with ordering books they know will sell in the face of company policy, as the main office will catch them at it.) I watched the new books come in last month, so I'd have a more precise idea of when to pick up new books before they could disappear on me. The information below is a result of this surveying, and covers all paperbacks with a May interior date; the weeks are a Monday-Sunday coverage, with the date given the Monday beginning the period in question: March 31: Bantam/Spectra April 7: Tor, Berkley April 14: Del Rey, Warner/Questar, Avon, Dell April 21: DAW/Signet, Ace, Baen/Pocket Note that the above list does not include any hardcovers; these are not released on such regular schedules. While I have not previously kept precise records on release dates, the above list is consistent with my memory of the last few months. I hope this information comes in handy. Andrew Sigel sigel@umass-cs.csnet ------------------------------ From: udenva!showard@caip.rutgers.edu (Mr. Blore) Subject: Re: Character Copyright Date: 26 Apr 86 20:43:50 GMT BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU writes: >I don't think characters CAN be copyrighted. The authors can moan >and groan, and maybe trademark protection can apply to, say, STAR >WARS characters, but I don't think ordinary characters and >situations can be held as the sole reserve of an author. In my contract with Blade (the publishing arm of Flying Buffalo, an Arizona-based fantasy-game company) all the contents of my work are copyrighted, while Blade and I share the rights to use the characters in other works. {hplabs, seismo}!hao!udenva!showard or {boulder, cires, ucbvax!nbires, cisden}!udenva!showard ------------------------------ From: m128a3aw@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse) Subject: Re: Quotes Date: 27 Apr 86 04:11:34 GMT ags@pucc-h.UUCP (Dave Seaman) writes: >spencer@usc-oberon.UUCP (Randy Spencer) writes: >> 37. "He knows, Doctor. He knows." > >Actually this is from "Arena" when Spock observes that Kirk is >gathering the raw materials needed to manufacture gunpowder. As others have pointed out, Spock says this in "City on the Edge of Forever" after Kirk prevents the good Doctor from saving Edith. The quote from Arena that you are thinking of is "He knows, Doctor. He has reasoned it out." Sean Rouse ARPA: cc-30@cory.berkeley.edu UUCP: ucbvax!cory!cc-30 ------------------------------ From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton) Subject: Re: **HUGO NOMINATIONS** (Unofficial) Date: 26 Apr 86 08:10:23 GMT ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (e.c.leeper) writes: >DRAMATIC PRESENTATION > >BACK TO THE FUTURE >BRAZIL >COCOON >ENEMY MINE >LADYHAWKE This list surprised me - this has really been an astounding year for SF/Fantasy films that it can produce a list like this. The typical year has one or two good films. This year contains two films, BTTF and Brazil, which will no doubt get added to the list of "crossovers" for the genere. (BTTF, before you detract it, as one of the best SF comedies ever made, certainly the best time travel comedy) Add to that three other good, if not classic films, and you have an exceptional year. Event SF films are rare. These are SF films that everybody will recall several years from now. Films you can safely make allusions to. Films you can talk about that no single person will say, "what?" to. This past decade has been very good. In the past there was hardly anything from 2001 in 1968 to Star Wars: A New Hope in 1977. Star Wars IV, Star Wars V, E.T. The Extra Terestrial, Star Trek series Ghostbusters, and Raiders of the Lost Ark are the films which make it to this list. (WARNING. DO NOT post articles saying what you think should be on this list, or what you think should be removed.) The point here is that SF/Fantasy films are now regularly becoming top grossing or most talked about films for a given year. SF is now truly the big time. Brad Templeton Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 May 86 0925-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #94 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 1 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 94 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Chalker & Green (2 msgs) & Sucharitkul & Tilley & Tolkien (2 msgs) & Trout, Films - Legend, Television - Wizards and Warriors, Miscellaneous - SFL T-Shirts & Origin of "fen" & Slang & Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon 28 Apr 86 15:39:08-PDT From: Judy Anderson Subject: Funny SF Last week I read Jhereg and Yendi on the basis of the discussion on this list. Although the books don't seem to qualify as "funny stories", they have their little gems of laughter every few pages. I was highly amused by one particular reference to the outside media world in Yendi. Judy. ------------------------------ From: jc3b21!larry@caip.rutgers.edu (Lawrence F. Strickland) Subject: RE: Alive Computers Date: 26 Apr 86 15:11:18 GMT > From: > is the size of a small planitoid and the Well World it's self if a > single computer. Whild the Well World is the computer that has > created the entire universe, and is the most powerful computer > that I have ever seen written To set the record a bit straighter, the Well World computer was NOT responsible for creating the universe, simply for maintaining the mathematics thereof. It was used by "Nathan Brazil (fill in here your ideas for who/ what may have preceeded him)" to LOCATE a white hole from which energy was drawn to re-create the universe in a later book. Also note that the computer actually was the Well World planetoid (with remotes at various locations) with a control center in the center of the planet at what was called the 'Well of Souls' (Interesting choice of terminology' Lawrence F. Strickland (larry@jc3b21) Dept. of Engineering Technology St. Petersburg Jr. College P.O. Box 13489 St. Petersburg, FL 33733 Phone: +1 813 341 4705 UUCP: ...akgua!akguc!codas!peora!ucf-cs!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry ------------------------------ From: ides!kimi@caip.rutgers.edu (Kimiye Tipton) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 25 Apr 86 20:13:09 GMT > ...as well as some absolute HIDEOUS junk (like some book, I forget > the title, but it was subtitled "Diane Santee, space agent" or > some such, see, I was looking for books with women as main > characters, but this one turns out to be one who really gets off > on rape and slavery, etc. The author claims to be one Sharon > Greene, but if it was written by a woman, I'll be EXTREMELY > surprised. By the way, I returned the book (got my money back) > after flipping through about *100+* pages of detailed description > of women being "trained" as slaves, begging for sexual relief from > their masters .... uck! The woman at the cash register said it was > a *series*, and the second one had something like "if you liked > the Gor novels ..." on the cover! The title was MIND GUEST, and it made me so angry I planned to mail the book back to the author (this is the highest insult I can think of). But even better is the chance to warn everyone on the net to avoid this book and author forever. Kimiye Tipton Maitland, FL USA USENET: ihnp4!ides!kimi CORNET: 754-6472 (305-660-6472) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 86 02:16 EST From: Andrew Sigel Subject: Sharon Green You are EXTREMELY surprised. Sharon Green was on a couple of panels at Boskone this year, and was indeed a woman in her 40s with a son in college (who hadn't yet read any of her books), and who said she writes what she wants to. I haven't read any of her books, but I do know that she's writing them at the rate of two a year, and has three series in progress; the one you apparently got hold of was "Diana Santee, Spaceways Agent". Andrew Sigel sigel@umass-cs.csnet ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 28 Apr 1986 18:20:53-PDT From: heilman%cad.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Hans Heilman) Subject: Re: Funny F & SF Another I book I would classify as "funny SF" is MALLWORLD by Somtow Sucharitkul, which involves adventures in a 50 kilometer long Shopping Mall in space. Recommended for those with a slightly twisted sense of humor (featuring custom designed babies courtesy of Storkways, Inc.... don't miss a payment or the Bogeyman will get you -- and Death by Vampire at the Way Out Suicide Parlors). Hans Heilman ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 86 02:16 EST From: Andrew Sigel Subject: Patrick Tilley's trilogy > bucsb!boreas@caip.rutgers.edu (The Mad Tickle Monster) writes: > One [author] I'd like to hear about is Patrick Tilley (?), who > wrote _Cloud_Warrior_ a couple of years ago. It was supposed to > be part of a trilogy, but in two years, I haven't seen a second > book to it. . . . Does anyone know what's happened to it? _CW_ > just came out in paperback, but none of the local book shops seem > to have heard of anything else by him (one wouldn't even admit the > book existed). The second book in Tilley's "Amtrak Wars" trilogy, "The First Family", has been out around here in a Baen Books paperback for about a month now. I have not heard about the third volume. Tilley has also written the novels "Fade-Out" (1975) and "The Mission" (1982); I have no idea if they are currently in print. Andrew Sigel sigel@umass-cs.csnet ------------------------------ From: sphinx.UChicago!see1@caip.rutgers.edu (Ellen Seebacher) Subject: Re: Gandalf Date: 27 Apr 86 19:25:27 GMT >> My question is about Gandalf. Does the author explicitly mention >> anywhere what type of "being" Gandalf was ? > >he states... that he is known as ... Olorin in the days when the >world was young.... in the Silmarillion... there is a short >paragraph at the end telling about Olorin, a Maia, who studied long >under Nienna and learned patience, after which he went out from >Aman and aided the peoples of Middle-Earth, always bringing >happiness to take away the darkness. This is the most accurate >origin of Gandalf I have ever read. Yes. It's pretty well accepted by the ...flame me if you like: "experts" (the various dissertation writers and Tolkien society types)...that Olorin the Maia and a few of his brethren became the Istari, or wizards. See entries on the subject in a good post-Silmarillion Tolkien guide, such as Robert ...'s _Guide to Middle Earth_. (Damn. Why can't I think of his name? "Graves" keeps popping into my head, and it certainly wasn't him!) (Question for discussion: _aside_ from the fact that Tolkien as an author didn't work much with female characters, WHY do you think there were no female wizards? Surely not inability to cope with the hazards of an uncivilized world: look at Galadriel, or even at her rather more cloistered granddaughter, both of whom weathered the storms of centuries rather well.) >Somewhere else in the Silmarillion (maybe in the chapter of The >Rings of Power and the Third Age) it is suggested that Gandalf >might have been Manwe (King of the Valar) in disguise, but that is >highly unlikely. I'll look it up when I get home, but I find this so unlikely that I'd like a more specific reference, please. Ellen Keyne Seebacher Univ. of Chicago Comp Ctr. ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!see1 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 86 02:28:29 MDT From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley) Subject: The language of the inscription on the doors of Moria From: Mark Crispin >The inscription on the doors of Moria were written in Quenya >(High Elvish). From: Chris McMenomy >For one thing, the dwarvish runes above the West Gate of Moria >are in Quenya, or high Elvan. (I tried to resist, but as an ex-linguist and childhood Tolkien fiend, I couldn't let this pass...) 'Pedo mellon a minno' is Sindarin, folks. The inscription is even in the Sindarin style, using Sindarin vowel marks instead of Quenya 'tehtar'. Even the sound of the phrase should tip you off -- 'pedo' is derived from the same root as 'quenya', with typically Sindarin phonological changes. Another clue to the identity of the language is Gandalf's description of it as 'the elven-tongue of the West of Middle Earth in the Elder Days', where 'West' must refer to Beleriand, where Sindarin originated. Finally (I hate to say this) one of Tolkien's own notes in the appendix to RINGS describes the Moria inscription as an interesting example of the spelling of Sindarin. As for why Legolas kept his trap shut, wouldn't you too, if Gandalf were in your party? Gandalf presumably spoke Quenya as his native tongue and had a few thousand years experience with other Elvish dialects... Legolas was a young elf from North Mirkwood (pop. 219), who spoke Silvan Elvish and probably didn't learn Sindarin until junior high. Grumble. Beam me up, Gandalf, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ From: unirot!halloran@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Halloran) Subject: Re: Who is Kilgore Trout ? Date: 28 Apr 86 12:57:10 GMT johnf@apollo.uucp (John Francis) writes: >> No discussion of humorous science fiction can pass without >> mention of Kurt Vonnegut, Jr, and his pseudonym, Kilgore Trout! > >I knew Kilgore Trout was a Vonnegut character, but I was under the >impression that "Venus on the Half-Shell" (supposedly written by >Kilgore Trout) was, in fact, written by somebody completely >different (not Vonnegut). Can anybody out there set me straight on >this detail ? It was my understanding that 'Venus' was written by Philip Jose Farmer, shortly followed by his pseudo-biographies of various 30's pulp heroes such as 'Tarzan Alive'. Robert Halloran UUCP: ..topaz!caip!unirot!halloran USPS: 19 Culver Ct, Old Bridge NJ 08857 Ph: (201) 251-7514 ------------------------------ From: mpm@hpfcms Subject: Re: Legend Date: 24 Apr 86 20:11:00 GMT Ed Falk writes: > Basically it's about the good guys trying to keep the bad guy (Tim > Curry as Satan, but for some reason the movie makers wouldn't say > it outright, so they had the characters refer to him as "the big > D") I think "Legend" takes place in a mythical time "long ago". There are certainly parallels between Christian mythology (e.g. "Hell" and "Satan"), but Tim Curry's character "Darkness" is distinct from that of Satan. Nor is the "underworld" hell; it's some kind of "tree". I think a more apropos point of reference would be modern fantasy or perhaps (fill-in-the-blank) mythology. The story has a similar "feel" to the Arthurian legends. Mike McCarthy {ihnp4, ucbvax, hplabs}!hpfcla!mpm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28-APR-1986 11:20 EDT From: Ronald A. Jarrell Subject: Wizards and Warriors A couple of years ago Barry Gold put out some episodes of a continuation of the very short lived series Wizards and Warriors.. I have up to installment 16.. Does anyone know if his wife, Lee, wrote any more, and if so, would anyone be willing to send them to me? Ron Jarrell Jarrellr@vtvax3.bitnet ------------------------------ From: h-sc2!samson@caip.rutgers.edu (greg samson) Subject: Wanted: SFL T-shirt info Date: 27 Apr 86 05:45:46 GMT I remember seeing that information about how to get an SF-Lovers T-shirt was posted a little while ago. Unfortunately, I was in the process of changing the machine that I read news on, and I managed to lose it. Could someone ***MAIL*** me the information that I need to get one? Thanks. G. T. Samson gts@borax.LCS.MIT.EDU samson%h-sc2@harvard.harvard.edu ------------------------------ From: lpi!abc@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Fen: a query Date: 27 Apr 86 01:12:11 GMT Joel B Levin writes: >As an individual unsocialized sf-lover for a long time but a fairly >recent subscriber to this digest, I would be interested in seeing >an etymology and definition of "fen" (I do have some idea what it >must mean). Also, while I know the meaning of "filksong," I am >curious about its etymology too. Just as "men" is the plural of "man", "fen" is the plural of "fan". A science fiction "fan" is a reader of SF, a member of one or more of the many fan groups throughout the world, and/or an attendee of science fiction conventions. Such activities are termed "fannish." Our guess as to "filksong" is that it is the legacy of a typographic error in a program book at a science fiction convention (a "con") many years ago which sounded weird enough to be taken into common fannish vocabulary. Evidence to support this is that when people got together for "filksinging" at cons 20 to 25 years ago, they sang what we would consider FOLK songs: normal songs from the popular folk milieu, rather than today's FILK songs which are usually popular melodies with fannish lyrics. (But since we here don't filk, we could easily be wrong.) Anton (...!{harvard,linus}!axiom!lpi!abc) ------------------------------ Date: Mon 28 Apr 86 10:04:30-EDT From: Rob Freundlich Subject: slang There was a survey done recently (I think by Newsweek, but I'm not sure) which looked at the current slang on college campuses. Anyone who's read _Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy_ should recognize the slang from University of Rochester: a cool person is "hoopy" or "froody" (As in "You sass that hoopy Ford Prefect? There's one frood who really knows where his towel is!"). Rob Freundlich s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet ------------------------------ From: ritcv!iav1917@caip.rutgers.edu (Alan I. Vymetalik) Date: 28 Apr 86 04:54:59 GMT Subject: Re: Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster ("Official Recipe") pro@trwrba.UUCP writes: >Has anyone out there ever tried to make a Pan Galactic Gargle >Blaster? Any ideas on how to make one???? For those in search of the finest drinks throughout the universe! Here's the "Official Recipe for the Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster". Please note up front that no commercialism is intended here. I am just spreading the knowledge... I had to hunt a while through my volumes of disks and disk database program to find it....but I finally did. This "recipe" is from a FIDO BBS in upstate New York. The name? "The HitchHiker's Guide", naturally. The SysOp is Fritz Howard and you can reach the "Guide" at 1-315-589-7361. It operates 24 hours a day and caters primarily to the DEC Rainbow world. p.s. The text has been edited for typographical errors but retains the full mind-blowing formula. Enjoy! Someone have a couple for me and post the results to the net! Alan I. Vymetalik Usenet: {allegra,seismo}!rochester!ritcv!iav1917 UUCP: iav1917@ritcv.UUCP Bitnet: aiv1974@ritvaxd THE PAN GALACTIC GARGLE BLASTER The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy states that the effect of drinking a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster is like having your brains smashed out by a slice of lemon wrapped around a large gold brick. How to make one - Take the juice from one bottle of Ol' Janx Spirit. - Pour into it one measure of water from the seas of Santraginus V (Oh, that Santraginus seawater! Oh, those Santraginus fish!) - Allow three cubes of Artutan Mega-gin to melt into the mixture (it must be properly iced or the benzine is lost) - Allow four liters of Fallian marsh gas to bubble through it, in memory of all those happy hikers who have died of pleasure in the Marshes of Fallia. - Over the back of a silver spoon float a measure of Qualactin Hypermint extract, redolent of all the heady odors of the dark Qualactin Zones, subtle, sweet, and mystic. - Drop in the tooth of an Algolian Suntiger. Watch it dissolve, spreading the fires of the Algolian Suns deep into the heart of the drink. - Sprinkle Zamphuor. - Add an olive. - Drink ... oh! but ... very carefully ... ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 May 86 1008-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #95 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 1 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 95 Today's Topics: Books - Moorcock (2 msgs) & Sladek & Tilley & Tolkien (2 msgs) & Animals in SF & Codex Seraphinianus & Funny SF (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - Copyrights (2 msgs) & Fannish Words (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: reed!soren@caip.rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen) Subject: Re: Eternal Champion Date: 29 Apr 86 00:06:27 GMT Has Moorcock written anything that did not in some way connect with everything else he's written? I seem to recall, although I can't think quite where, my collection being 600 miles away, that the Eternal Champion books connected to the Jerry Cornelius/Dancers at the End of time books. Just Curious. . . Soren Petersen ------------------------------ From: reed!ellen@caip.rutgers.edu (Ellen Eades) Subject: Re: Re: Eternal Champion Date: 29 Apr 86 00:09:30 GMT I read a (truly bad) Moorcock book called _Time of the Hawklords_ about ten years ago; it was loosely based on the rock group Hawkwind, and I don't think it connected overtly with anything else he's written. I think it's now out of print. Small loss. Ellen ------------------------------ From: drivax!alexande@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark G. Alexander) Subject: Re: Oh No! More Funny SF! Date: 28 Apr 86 18:53:01 GMT KLOUDA@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU writes: >If anyone knows of other books by John Sladek please let me know. Mechasm A novel, published by Ace a while back, may not be in print anymore. Haven't read it in so long, I can't remember anything about it. The Steam-Driven Boy A collection of stories; I have a British paperback (Penguin or Panther, it's at home, can't look it up). It ends with some brilliant parodies of famous science fiction writers, including J.G. Ballard, Isaac Asimov, A.C. Clarke, P.K. Dick ("Solar Shoe Salesman" by Chipdip K. Kill), R.A. Heinlein (Hitler A. E. Bonner), Cordwainer Smith, and others. Probably the funniest SF book I've read. Mark Alexander {ihnp4,mot,ucscc,ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl} !drivax!alexande ------------------------------ From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Patrick Tilley's trilogy Date: 29 Apr 86 08:04:54 GMT SIGEL%umass-cs.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA writes: >The second book in Tilley's "Amtrak Wars" trilogy, "The First >Family", has been out around here in a Baen Books paperback for >about a month now. I have not heard about the third volume. >Tilley has also written the novels "Fade-Out" (1975) and "The >Mission" (1982); I have no idea if they are currently in print. The second novel has been out for at least a year, at least in England. So I would expect the third soon, and since Baen is now printing his books here it might come out almost as soon in the US. I find it hard to believe it is going to be only a trilogy, though; he would have to start explaining things about 100x faster in order to wrap the series up in a third volume. I don't recommend "Fade-Out" or "Mission"; the first is especially bad. But the Amtrak Wars books are good, although I am dubious about the chances for a strong ending... David desJardins ------------------------------ From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Wizards (and myths) Date: 28 Apr 86 22:50:25 GMT bhaskar@cvl.UUCP writes: >My question is about Gandalf. Does the author explicitly mention >anywhere what type of "being" Gandalf was ? Several species of life >are mentioned - hobbits, men, dwarves, elves among them. Into which >category did Gandalf fit ? Is Wizard a separate class ? > >If Tolkien does say something definite, I would like to know where >it is said . I do not have the time to start reading the trilogy >all over again. The answer (if it is one) is in the SILMARILLION. There are five wizards: Gandalf the Grey (now White), Saruman the (former) White, Radagast the Brown, and the two Blue wizards who disappeared shortly after arriving from Valinor. The wizards are, apparently, Maiar (servants? children? of the Valar); so, in fact, is the Valar Melkur (Morgoth)'s servant, the Maiar known as Sauron. This is not said straight out (Tolkien believed in unknown prehistory, I guess), but it is strongly implied. They were sent to combat Melkur and Sauron, and left after Sauron was vanquished. >P.S. Does anybody see strong parallels with the Star Wars novels ? >True, one is set in the past, the other in the future and the Ring >and the Force have almost opposite "properties". But in both cases >we have a protagonist thrust, willy-nilly into a fine imbroglio. >Gandalf - Kenobi , Saruman - Darth Vader , Sauron - Palpatine , >Frodo - Luke etc. are a host of what I see as parallels. When I >mentioned this to my room-mate, he disagreed strongly. Is my vision >distorted ? Similarities can be shown for the LENSMAN books as well. This particular mythology is a very popular one, in both its incarnations (strong protagonist, as Kimball Kinnison, or weak protagonist, as Frodo). (For that matter, Kinnison is pretty small himself compared to an Arisian... or (as happened) Gharlane of Eddore.) Brandon decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 CIS 74106,1032 MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time) ------------------------------ From: drivax!holloway@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: Gandalf Date: 28 Apr 86 15:49:05 GMT There is an entire chapter on the Origins of the Wizards in "Unfinished Tales", published posthumously. In fact, I think everything relating to Middle-Earth, besides the Trilogy and The Hobbit and some shorter works were published after he died. In any event, the wizards are sort of minor (very minor) deities who are trying to keep the Vaia (sp?) in touch with the goings-on in Middle-Earth. Read the book for more info. ....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ From: drivax!holloway@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: animals animals animals Date: 28 Apr 86 18:38:45 GMT >From: C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU >I'm working on the topic of intelligent animals and how they've >been handled by different authors. I'd be interested in seeing >who's your favorite 'animal handler' and why. All with thoughts >toward a comparison article in the future. "The Island of Dr. Moreau", by Jules Verne. Weird island with a typical Vernian villian, i.e., mad scientist makes amazing discovery and uses it for his own ends, which almost always include ruling the world. Jude (he always made me call him "Jude") had a real obsession with science controlling everybody's lives. In any event "The Island" is about a scientist holed up in a tropical island, discovered by *our shipwrecked hero* (another oft used plot device) and thwarted in his plans to use animal vivisection and genetic manipulation to rule the world. Had lots of interesting zoothropes in it. ....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 86 09:24 EST From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: _Codex_Seraphinianus_ Recently I was reading Douglas Hofstadter's _Metamagical_Themas_ (not an sf book, but great for all you metaphilosophers, mathematicians, linguists, Rubik's cubists, etc.) In his chapter on nonsense I came across a reference to a book called _Codex_Seraphinianus_, which he describes as an "encyclopedia" by an Italian architect about some strange other world/universe with full-color illustrations... written in a language completely unknown on Earth. It must be a linguist's delight. Has anyone here read it? In the same paragraph he mentions _A_Humument_, by Tom Phillips, which is an old Victorian novel which has been "treated" by having selected pages all but entirely obscured with paint, leaving a few words to peek out... (Needless to say, I'm a great lover of nonsense. Doesn't ANYONE read Gertrude Stein anymore?) nj ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 86 12:07:37 EDT From: Kathy Kerby Subject: Re: Funny SF The Gallegher stories that a couple of people mentioned were written by Henry Kuttner, who sometimes wrote under the name of Lewis Padgett. He wrote in the 1940's and 50's. One of the Gallegher stories, "The Proud Robot", appears in a collection called _The Best of Henry Kuttner_, published by Ballantine in 1975, probably out of print now. All of them are together in a book called _Robots Have No Tails_, definitely out of print. I got it from the MIT SF club, and there was never a borrowed book that I came closer to not returning. The book is terrific, and I would love to hear from anyone who knows where I can acquire a copy. Kuttner also wrote several screamingly funny stories about a hillbilly family called the Hogbens who are telepathic, telekinetic, etc (mutants?). "Cold War" is in that _Best Of_ collection. Another set of short stories that I have read and re-read with pleasure is Arthur Clarke's _Tales From the White Hart_. This falls into the same category of "funny ones told in a bar" as Spider Robinson's _Callahan's Crosstime Saloon_ and _Time Travelers Strictly Cash_. The Clarke stories are more SF jokes (with less tragedy mixed in) than the Robinson stories. BTW, this is a great topic. I've been copying down all the funny SF titles I haven't already read, and getting them out of the library. Good suggestions, everyone! I loved _The Colour of Magic_, "Allamagoosa", _Next Of Kin_ = _Plus X_, so far. Thanks! kkerby (kkerby@bbnccp.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 86 12:45:54 EDT From: Chettri@dewey.udel.EDU Cc: suicidechump@udel-mae.ARPA Subject: RE: FUNNY FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION One book that does not crop up at all in all the postings so far is TALES FROM WHITE HART - Arthur C. Clarke It consists of short stories mostly dealing with one Harry Purvis. The last story 'THE DEFENESTRATION OF ERMINTRUDE INCH' is hilarious. though it really isn't SF. Samir Chettri ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 86 10:46 PDT From: lance@LOGICON.ARPA Subject: Re: Funny Stories Finally I have something that I am seriously going to contribute to the net, my list of humorous/funny/entertaining Fantasy and Science Fiction. The list contains books that I have read and that have not already been mentioned (or is worthy of mentioning again.) Bellair, John The Face in the Frost - FA funny Carroll, Lewis Alice in Wonderland, Through the Looking Glass Friesner, E. Harlot's Ruse - FA more entertaining than humorous Goulart, Ron Hellquad / Suicide, Inc / Brainz, Inc - All SF, absurdly funny Huntly, Tim One on Me - SF distopian future, but parts were extremely funny Kipling, R. The Jungle Books, Just so Stories Lee, Tanith The Dragon Hoard - FA, juvinile story but great, funny The Four Bee Novels - SF, different twist of view 1) Don't Bite the Sun 2) Drinking Sapphire Wine Schmitz, James Telzey Amberdon: (if their are any more let me know) 1) The Universe Against Her - SF just entertaining 2) Telzey and other Stories - but worthy of mention 3) The Lion Game Young, R. King Vizer's Second Daughter - Aribian Nights FA, entertaining Lance Net: lance@LOGICON.ARPA ------------------------------ From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: Character Copyright Date: 26 Apr 86 13:50:40 GMT >From: Laurence Brothers >I don't think characters CAN be copyrighted. The authors can moan >and groan, and maybe trademark protection can apply to, say, STAR >WARS characters, but I don't think ordinary characters and >situations can be held as the sole reserve of an author. True, as Laurence writes, ORDINARY characters and situations cannot be held as the sole reserve of an author, but extraordinary ones apparently can. Harlan Ellison and Ben Bova won a plagerism suit against ABC TV, claiming that the idea of a crusty street cop partnered with a robot was original to them (from their mediocre story BRILLO ("metal fuzz" :-) ) published first in ANALOG. ABC and screenwriter Michael Wilson had to pay them, if I recall correctly, something like $300,000 because the judge agreed that the TV flick and short lived series FUTURE COP (with Ernest Borgnine, later retitled CLEAVER AND HAVEN) was a rip-off of that story. The trial was covered in LOCUS some years back. Similarly, Ellison claimed to be creator of the concept of a time- travelling robot designed to change history by selective assassination and won a sum of money plus oon-screen credit on all videocassette copies of THE TERMINATOR in an out-of-court settlement. (Ellison's original use of the character was in a brilliant episode of THE OUTER LIMITS entitled DEMON WITH A GLASS HAND, starring Robert Culp), On the other hand, Lucasfilm tried to block the release of BATTLESTAR GALACTICA on plagerism grounds. Although much of the look and feel of BATTLESTAR was the same as STAR WARS, no correspondence between specific plot elements and specific characters could be demonstrated and the suit failed. Cheers Robert J. Sawyer (Member, SFWA) In Toronto c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ From: jimb@ism780 Subject: Re: Character Copyright Date: 26 Apr 86 07:34:00 GMT If a character is my invention and someone else uses it in a published story, they're making money off of my creative labor and will hear from my attorney. Still, it's not an unreasonable question. When I was much younger and more naive -- say, oh, two years ago -- I was entertaining the idea of writing a Feghoot. My similar inquiry was sizzled so fast you wouldn't believe it and I saw the light rather quickly. This does NOT apply, however, to characters in the public domain, e.g., those never copyrighted or those upon whom copyright has expired. Hence, Sherlock Holmes, D'Artangnan, etc., are fair game. Jim Brunet ihnp4/ima/ism780/jimb hplabs/hao/ico/ism780/jimb sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ism780C/ism780/jimb ------------------------------ From: hpccc!dlow@caip.rutgers.edu (dlow) Subject: Re: Fen and Filksong Date: 28 Apr 86 16:55:00 GMT Subject: Fannish words Fen is the plural of fan. Filksong is a typo for folksong that became accepted as meaning science fiction or fannish folksong. The origins of filksong is uncertain. I believe that the first recorded use of fen is traceable but I do not know who first used it. The use of fan slang is declining in fandom and is used more in jest than seriousness. Only certain words such as filksong are in common and frequent use (because they are useful labels for common fan activities.) Danny Low ...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 86 08:06 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Fen: a query Cc: Joel B Levin "Fen" is the plural of "fan" as "men" is the plural of "man", or so it was explained to me. The etymology of "filk" is unknown, but most experts agree that it probably began as a typo of "folk". The best explanation I've found of filk and its origins as in an article by Nick Smith in the Equicon '86 program book. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Tue 29 Apr 86 08:12:11-EDT From: Laurence Brothers Subject: Etymology of a sort FILKSONG, n. sing., from the ancient Erse, F'uilg Seaong, to make a typographical error and have it perpetuated. FEN, n. plur., a marshy lowland area, such as the farming regions of East Anglia. Sing., FAN, a bladed device for generating an air current. Laurence ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 May 86 1102-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #96 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 1 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 96 Today's Topics: Books - Cabell & Hambly & Purtill & Tolkien (3 msgs) & Waters, Television - The Twilight Zone, Miscellaneous - The Nebula Awards ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 29 Apr 86 11:59:44-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: High Fantasy Another High Fantasy author that Dunsany fans might enjoy is James Branch Cabell. His best works, in my opinion, are _Jurgen_, _Figures_Of_Earth_, _The_Silver_Stallion_ (? -- the sequel, more or less, of _Figures_Of_Earth), and _The_High_Place_. He's written a lot, fourty-seven more books to be precise. His command of language is the equal of Dunsany and Vance. His faults are the same, too. Bard ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 86 17:54:12 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: ISHMAEL, by Barbara Hambly Greetings and felicitations! If anyone here has read the afore-mentioned book, could you tell me if I missed anything? It is primarily a Star Trek book, but about half of it is set in the "Here Come the Brides" universe. Spock also makes a reference to being "shanghaied by a shipload of Hokas," who I just found out exist also. Have I missed any other references? Sarek ------------------------------ From: udenva!showard@caip.rutgers.edu (Mr. Blore) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 28 Apr 86 19:51:09 GMT cdrigney@uokvax.UUCP writes: >Another funny book set at a sf convention is _Murdercon_, by >Richard Purtill. Murdercon is not funny, not science fiction, and not worth reading. It is a very bad attempt by a science fiction writer to do a mystery story. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to have read any mystery books since leaving the 6th grade, as the "mystery" in Murdercon is as obvious as a "Scooby Doo" cartoon. {hplabs, seismo}!hao!udenva!showard or {boulder, cires, ucbvax!nbires, cisden}!udenva!showard ------------------------------ From: gds@sri-spam.ARPA (Greg Skinner) Subject: Re: Gandalf Date: 29 Apr 86 20:22:26 GMT see1@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Ellen Seebacher) writes: >(Question for discussion: _aside_ from the fact that Tolkien as an >author didn't work much with female characters, WHY do you think >there were no female wizards? Surely not inability to cope with >the hazards of an uncivilized world: look at Galadriel, or even at >her rather more cloistered granddaughter, both of whom weathered >the storms of centuries rather well.) This is pure speculation, but I don't believe there were many women of the order of Maia who had any interest in Middle-Earth. In fact, there weren't many Maia *period* who had any interest in Middle-Earth. The only other possibility would have been Melian, whose spirit left for Mandos after Thingol was killed. By the time the Third Age rolled around, the idea (I believe) was to get the elder races *out* of Middle-Earth and back into the West. I doubt that it was deliberate of Tolkien not to have any female wizards (certainly there are sterling examples of women and their deeds -- Luthien, Melian, Galadriel, Eowyn, Arwen, and so forth). The lack of female dwarves is noted though. >>Somewhere else in the Silmarillion (maybe in the chapter of The >>Rings of Power and the Third Age) it is suggested that Gandalf >>might have been Manwe (King of the Valar) in disguise, but that is >>highly unlikely. > >I'll look it up when I get home, but I find this so unlikely that >I'd like a more specific reference, please. I think it was in Unfinished Tales. Wherever it was, there was a long explanation of who the Wizards (Istari) were, and of what order they were. It was actually Faramir who related to Frodo Gandalf's true name when they met in Ithilien. ------------------------------ From: gargoyle!congdon@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Congdon) Subject: Re: Gandalf, his Ring, and Star Wars(?) Date: 29 Apr 86 03:54:22 GMT bhaskar@cvl.UUCP writes: >My question is about Gandalf. Does the author explicitly mention >anywhere what type of "being" Gandalf was ? Several species of life >are mentioned - contenders. Gandalf is a peer of Sauron; a member of the Maia, which were lesser spirits of the same order as the Valar. (I think that a reasonable comparison would be that the Maiar are to the Valar as angels are to arch-angels.) However, they obviously do not come in full power. The reason that they came to Middle-Earth clad as Men (and subject to all their physical frailities) goes back to the First Age. The Valar had decided that their decision to bring the Elves to Valinor was an incorrect one. More correctly, the method used did not allow for much free choice as Orome, revealed in all his glory was the one who asked them to come. Those who were not scared (because they thought that Orome was actually an emissar of Morgoth) went, for what creature could or would resist such a resplendent being? The Valar later decided that this coertion in Power was an evil that they did not want to repeat. Therefore, the five Maiar who were sent to Middle-Earth to combat Sauron had to be subject to such things as fatigue, hunger and death. The Istari were supposed to encourage the Children of Iluvatar to the good and not to despair; they were not supposed to awe Elves, Men and Dwarves into submission. This was Gandalf's particular strength and was further intensified by the Ring of Fire. What troubles me most about this is whether or not Gandalf would have fallen with the other Four if he did not have the Ring. Saruman despaired and fell, Radagast simply lost interest (his way of giving up, or simply that being a Maia of Yavanna, beasts were all that interested him), and the other two certainly failed and probably fell also. Celebrimbor foresaw that Gandalf would need the Ring and gave it to him saying ' and lest your task prove too great and wearisome, take this Ring for your aid and comfort' Any thoughts? >P.S. Does anybody see strong parallels with the Star Wars novels ? >True, one is set in the past, the other in the future and the Ring >and the Force have almost opposite "properties". But in both cases >we have a protagonist thrust, willy-nilly into a fine imbroglio. >Gandalf - Kenobi , Saruman - Darth Vader , Sauron - Palpatine , >Frodo - Luke etc. are a host of what I see as parallels. When I >mentioned this to my room-mate, he disagreed strongly. Is my vision >distorted ? I think that the parallels are somewhat indirect here. Tolkien's inspiration lay more in Scandinavian myth, and, at least originally, Lucas' inspiration was basically Arthurian, with Merlin & Kenobi, Uthyr & Darth Vader, Arthur & Luke. I realize that the comparison here is only a little closer, but I believe that I remember Lucas saying that Arthurian legend was very involved in the Star Wars story from the beginning. Certainly, it has become less and less like Arturian legend with every movie, but I attribute this to the pressures of Hollywood. Richard Congdon Univ. of Chicago, Education Department ...ihnp4!gargoyle!paideia!{richard,root} ------------------------------ From: okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (The New Number Who) Subject: Re: The Istari Date: 29 Apr 86 20:40:45 GMT congdon@gargoyle.UUCP (Richard Congdon) writes: > What troubles me most about this is whether or not Gandalf would >have fallen with the other Four if he did not have the Ring. >Saruman despaired and fell, Radagast simply lost interest (his way >of giving up, or simply that being a Maia of Yavanna, beasts were >all that interested him), and the other two certainly failed and >probably fell also. Celebrimbor foresaw that Gandalf would need the >Ring and gave it to him saying ' and lest your task prove too great >and wearisome, take this Ring for your aid and comfort' Any >thoughts? Saruman did not despair the way, say, Denethor did. Saruman's fault was that he became ensnared in the devices of the Enemy. He tries to forge his own Ruling Ring, but fails. In "Unfinished Tales", it is mentioned that he led the other two Istari, called "The Blue Wizards" into the East (beyond Mordor), where they were lost to Middle-Earth. He is jealous and fearful of Gandalf, for he felt that Narya should have been given to him, as the head of the Istari. He is a traitor to his purpose in coming to Middle-Earth and is justly banished from Valinor upon his dissolution. It is interesting that both Curumo (Saruman) and Olorin (Gandalf) are Maiar of Aule, the "tinkerer" of Valinor, and that one falls but the other does not. Jeff Okamoto okamoto@ucbvax.berkeley.edu ..!ucbvax!okamoto ------------------------------ Date: Tue 29 Apr 86 20:22:10-EDT From: Wang Zeep Subject: Anderson, Kurland, and Waters "The Probability Pad" by Tom Waters is the third book in his, Kurland's, and Anderson's jokes on friends series. "The Butterfly Kid" was probably the best written. It received a favorite son Hugo nomination for Baycon ('69?). Kurland's "The Unicorn GIrl" is funnier, but more incoherent. Water's book just isn't that good. Together, Anderson and Kurland wrote "Ten Years to Doomsday" which is pretty good. All of these were published originally by Pyramid. wz ------------------------------ From: styx!mcb@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch) Subject: Save The Twilight Zone! Date: 29 Apr 86 21:39:51 GMT I have learned from two reliable sources (a CBS affiliate's program director and a SF writer with friends in the industry) that CBS is still debating the future of The Twilight Zone. TZ is off now, and will appear in reruns, I've been told, during the summer season on Thursdays at 10 PM EDT/PDT, opposite reruns of Hill Street Blues. But TZ's fate for the fall season HANGS IN THE BALANCE. The networks have historically paid significant attention to viewer letters during these kind of decisions. Therefore: IF YOU CARE ABOUT QUALITY TELEVISION, AND IF YOU CARE ABOUT KEEPING GOOD SF AND GOOD DRAMA ON THE AIR, WRITE *TODAY* TO: CBS Programming Department CBS, Inc. 51 West 52nd Street New York, NY 10019 and drop a copy to the program director of your local CBS affiliate. Stay tuned for further details. Michael C. Berch ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA UUCP: {ihnp4,dual}!lll-lcc!styx!mcb ------------------------------ From: qantel!lynx@caip.rutgers.edu (D.N. Lynx Crowe@ex2207) Subject: Nebulas: and the winners are ... Date: 29 Apr 86 16:33:33 GMT This weekend (April 26th) the Science Fiction Writers of America held their 21st Annual Nebula Awards Banquet, at the Claremnont Hotel in Berkeley. The toastmaster was Robert Silverberg. The Nebula Award "The Nebula Awards are voted on, and presented by active members of the Science Fiction Writers of America. Founded in 1965 by Damon Knight, the organization's first president, the SFWA began with a charter membership of 78 writers; it now has over 800 members, among them most of the leading writers of science fiction. Lloyd Biggle, Jr., the SFWA's first Secretary-Treasurer, originally proposed in 1965 that the organization publish an annual anthology of the best stories of the year. This notion, according to Damon Knight in his introduction to _Nebula Award Stories: 1965_ (Doubleday, 1966), 'rapidly grew into an annual ballot of SFWA's members to choose the best stories, and an annual Awards Banquet.' The trophy was designed by Judith Ann Lawrence from a sketch made by Kate Wilhelm; it is a block of lucite in which are embedded a spiral nebula made of metallic glitter and a specimen of rock crystal. The trophies are handmade, and no two are exactly alike. Since 1965, the Nebula Awards have been given each year for the best novel, novella, novelette, and short story published during the preceding year. An anthology including the winning pieces of short fiction and several runners-up is also published every year. The Nebula Awards Banquet, which takes place each spring, is held in alternate years in New York City and on the West Coast; the banquets are attended by many leading writers and editors and are preceded by meetings and panel discussions. This year, the nominated works, all published during 1985, include books by both established writers and promising newcomers. The Grand Master Nebula Award is given to a living atuhor for a lifetime's achievement in science fiction. This award is given no more than six times in a decade. Nominations for the Grand Master Award are made by the President of the SFWA and are then voted on by the past presidents, the current officers, and the current Nebula Awards Jury. The Grand Masters, and the years in which they won are Robert A. Heinlein (1974), Jack Williamson (1975), Clifford D. Simak (1976), L. Sprague de Camp (1978), Fritz Leiber (1981), and Andre Norton (1983)." (*) This years nominees, and winners are (winners listed first): For Novel: Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card (Tor Books) Blood Music by Greg Bear (Arbor House) Dinner at Deviant's Palace by Tim Powers (Ace Books) Helliconia Winter by Brian W. Aldiss (Atheneum) The Postman by David Brin (Bantam Spectra Books) The Remaking of Sigmund Freud by Barry N. Malzberg (Del Rey) Schismatrix by Bruce Sterling (arbor House) For Novella: "Sailing to Byzantium" by Robert Silverberg (Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine, February 1985) "24 Views of Mount Fuji" by Roger Zelazny (Isaac Asimov's Science Ficiton Magazine, July 1985) "The Gorgon Field" by Kate Wilhelm (Isaac Asimov's Science Ficiton Magazine, August 1985) "Green Days in Brunei" by Bruce Sterling (Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine, October 1985) "Green Mars" by Kim Stanley Robinson (Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine, September 1985) "The Only Neat Thing To Do" by James Tiptree, Jr. (The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction, October 1985) For Novelette: "Portraits of His Children" by George R.R. Martin (Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine, Novemeber 1985) "Dogfight" by Michael Swanwick and William Gibson (Omni, July 1985) "The Fringe" by Orson Scott Card (The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction, October 1985) "A Gift from the Graylanders" by Michael Bishop (Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine, September 1985) "The Jaguar Hunter" by Lucius Shepard (The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction, May 1985) "Paladin of the Lost Hour" by Harlan Ellison (Universe 15, Doubleday; The Twilight Zone Magazine, December 1985) "Rockabye Baby" by S.C. Sykes (Analog, Mid-December, 1985) For Short Story: "Out of All Them Bright Stars" by Nancy Kress (The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction, March 1985) "Flying Saucer Rock and Roll" by Howard Waldrop (Omni, January 1985) "The Gods of Mars" by Gardner Dozois, Jack Dann, and Michael Swanwick (Omni, March 1985) "Heirs of the Perisphere" by Howard Waldrop (Playboy, July 1985) "Hong's Bluff" by William F. Wu (Omni, March 1985) "More Than the Sum of His Parts" by Joe Haldeman (Playboy, May 1985) "Paper Dragons" by James P. Blaylock (Imaginary Lands, Ace Books) "Snow" by John Crowley (Omni, November 1985) Grand Master: Arthur C. Clarke (*) quoted without permission from Vol 20, No 1, Spring 1986 Bulletin of the Science Fiction Writers of America. D.N. Lynx Crowe {dual, hplabs, lll-crg, ptsfa}!qantel!lynx ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 May 86 0928-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #97 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 2 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 97 Today's Topics: Books - Bailey & Cherryh & Moorcock & Stasheff & Tolkien (5 msgs), Miscellaneous - Copyrights & Book Dealers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Apr 86 10:35:30 EDT From: Joseph I. Herman (Joe) Subject: Review of the Zen Gun I saw a mention of THE ZEN GUN by Barrington Bailey in issue 87 of SF-L. I thought that I'd write this and warn people away from this book. Micro Review: !!YUCK!! Mini Review: On the proverbial -4 to +4 scale, this one gets a -4. I found the book to be predictable, repetitive and in some cases even sadistic. The writing style is slow, and the characters one dimensional. *slight spoiler follows, but the book isn't good enough to read anyway* About a month ago, I picked this book up and started readng it. The story is set in a crumbling galactic empire. Biological engineering has advanced to where humans have cross bred with animals for centuries. Pure humans still occupy the highest places in society, but there are fewer and fewer pure humans. The story opens with a (yes, you guessed it) an EVIL MAD SCIENTIST doing sadistic things to the animals he has given intelligence. One of these animals escapes and finds an old armory, where he picks up, the ZEN GUN. Well, the story rapidly deteriorates from here. The motto of the ZEN GUN is 'I can maim, and I can kill, I can be anything you want' or words to that effect. See, the gun has a sort of intelligence of its own. Basically, the escaped animal uses this gun to first kill the mad scientist, and in one horribly sadistic scene, to torture for it's own pleasure. Of course, there are other elements to the plot, and the author has used the humans-mixed-with-animals as an excuse to give us one dimensional characters (pig descendants that love being officious, etc.) In summation, I didn't like the book. Not only didn't I like it, I was offended by it, and this is the first time that's happened to me. I kept trying to see it as a parody in an effort to give it some credit, and in a minor sense, it does parody some of the space operas, but it does this *very* clumsily. Joe Herman DZOEY@UMD2.UMD.EDU ------------------------------ From: stuart@rochester.ARPA Subject: C.J. Cherryh portrait? Date: 28 Apr 86 14:55:23 GMT From: Stuart Friedberg Does anyone know if the picture on the cover of the paperback (only?) edition of C.J. Cherryh's collection of stories "Visible Light" is a portrait of the author? Stu Friedberg {seismo, allegra}!rochester!stuart stuart@rochester ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!cccallan@caip.rutgers.edu (Allan McKillop) Subject: Re: Re: Eternal Champion Date: 29 Apr 86 15:39:29 GMT > Has Moorcock written anything that did not in some way connect > with everything else he's written? I seem to recall, although I > can't think quite where, my collection being 600 miles away, that > the Eternal Champion books connected to the Jerry > Cornelius/Dancers at the End of time books. He has also written a book called The Warhound and the World's Pain that had absolutely nothing to the eternal champion. It is also (to me) a questionable point whether his Warlord of the Air series has anything to do with the Eternal Champion. In the three book set (The Warlord of the Air, The Land Leviathan (sp?) and The Stainless Steel Tsar) he never even mentions the Eternal Champion, but in one of the corum books, Jhary mentions that Bastable (the protagonist in the Warlord or the Air series) is an incarnation of Corum. Also, in Elric at the End of Time (ick! I hate to consider that an Elric book) everything comes together. Allan McKillop ...{ucbvax,lll-crg}!ucdavis!deneb!cccallan (UUCP) ...ucdavis!deneb!cccallan@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (ARPA) ------------------------------ From: oliveb!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barb Jernigan) Subject: Re: Mini-review of new Warlock book (with mini-spoilers!) Date: 29 Apr 86 18:37:28 GMT > From: > THE WARLOCK ENRAGED 0 I dunno (just to quibble), I'd rate ENRAGED at _least_ a two -- if only for the Father Vidicon story. (Besides, I have a long standing fondness for fat friars.) Barb ------------------------------ From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer) Subject: Re: Gandalf (and Star Wars) Date: 30 Apr 86 03:39:56 GMT cvl!bhaskar writes: >P.S. Does anybody see strong parallels with the Star Wars novels ? >True, one is set in the past, the other in the future I hadn't thought of that before! Star Wars is set in the past, of course (this is announced before the title, even), but it never occurred to me that Middle Earth is in the future. Now that I think about it, it's so obvious -- they have really advanced technology, high enough to be indistinguishable from magic (a la Clarke), and the multiple intelligent races must be mutated descendants of humans. And here I've been saying all along that LotR is fantasy and not SF! :-) >Gandalf - Kenobi, Saruman - Darth Vader, Sauron - Palpatine, Frodo >- Luke etc. are a host of what I see as parallels. I haven't read LotR*, but in Star Wars OB1 says "You cannot win, Darth... If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can imagine!" (approximate quote). I understand something similar converted Gandalf into Gandalf-The-White (what a racist book! :-) ), no? Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh) *I don't like fantasy. I feel that anybody can write fiction if he gets to make up his own rules. I like hard SF, with premises that are plausible if not probable, and thought-provoking. I did read _The Hobbit_, and wasn't too impressed. Please don't flame me for my opinions; they're mine, and I don't want to hear that Tolkien is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Btw, I'm not claiming that Star Wars is all that hot either. ------------------------------ From: puff!anich@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Anich) Subject: Re: Wizards (and myths): {really Star Wars} Date: 30 Apr 86 01:01:56 GMT > P.S. Does anybody see strong parallels with the Star Wars novels ? Not really, other than a basic good vs evil plot. Star Wars does have many similarities to a movie by Akiro Kurasawa -- The Samuri Triology, I think. steve anich ------------------------------ From: oliveb!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barb Jernigan) Subject: Re: Gandalf Date: 29 Apr 86 18:24:12 GMT The Wizards are a separate class of beings. No, it is not mentioned in The Hobbit (note singular) or The Lord of the Rings, but in the Simarilian. This book is only for afficionados of Middle Earth (or any other) 'history' and the backgrounds of mythical universes. If you're looking for good _stories_ (cohesive plot, et al), avoid it. It is more a series of vignettes. I enjoyed it immensely (but any of my friends will guarantee that I'm weird). As for parallels between Star Wars and LotR, remember, the latter was written in 1940 and has flavored most (if not all) Fantasy that followed. Also, the epic fantasy generally has a formula: BIG super NASTY, equally Powerful Good Guy, Nobody who's really Somebody thrust onto a quest usually to find some sort of powerful Talisman and then face off the Nasty. Also, there is little in Star Wars that is truly original -- Lucas is a master of mimickry (and I love his movies for it). (Believe me, I can name the WWII movies he's lifted his space-battles from -- some nearly verbatum.) So, the similarities are not so much coincidental or design, but genre. Barb ------------------------------ From: oliveb!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barb Jernigan) Subject: Re: Gandalf Date: 29 Apr 86 19:17:24 GMT > Robert ........'s _Guide to Middle Earth_. ^Foster^ (Ballantine, first copyright 1971) > (Question for discussion: _aside_ from the fact that Tolkien as an > author didn't work much with female characters, WHY do you think > there were no female wizards? Surely not inability to cope with > the hazards of an uncivilized world: look at Galadriel, or even at > her rather more cloistered granddaughter, both of whom weathered > the storms of centuries rather well.) considering the real-time era the books were written in, be glad you got shield maiden eowyn. galadriel and arwen have arthurian acceptability (and, as was pointed out, eowyn has her roots in the valkyrie brunhilde) (not to mention one macduff -- "what's he, that was not born of woman?"). i suppose jrrt could have thrown in a witch or two -- but i don't recall witches in middle earth -- the powerful elf women must suffice. (and i think they do a pretty good job.) it's surprising that lotr hasn't suffered more dating. >>somewhere else in the silmarillion (maybe in the chapter of the >>rings of power and the third age) it is suggested that gandalf >>might have been Manwe (King of the Valar) in disguise, but that is >>highly unlikely. To Quote Foster (Guide to Middle Earth) -- long: GANDALF One of the Istari, as Gandalf the Grey the second most powerful of the Order. Gandalf can be said to have been the person most responsible for the victory of the West and the downfall of Sauron in the Third Age; he labored ceaselessly and ever-faithfully for two thousand years towards that goal, and by his foresight built up many powers to oppose Sauron in the final struggle. On his arrival in Middle-earth about TA 1000, Cirdan gave him Narya, one of the Three Rings. Gandalf had many adventures and trials during the Third Age.... Gandalf looked like a grey-cloaked, grey-haired (after his resurrection, his hair and cloak were white) bent old man, and passed easily for a meddlesome old conjuror; at times, however, he revealed his true majesty and power. Prior to his fight with the Balrog, it seems that he was mortal, and was vulnerable to both weapons and "magical" force, but as Gandalf the White no weapon could touch on him, and his power over the Unseen was greatly increased. Gandalf travelled mostly in the West, and had no permanent home. Of all the Istari, he was the closest to the Eldar, and the only Wizard who truly cared about things of seemingly small value like Hobbits and trees. He was a great master of lore and (perhaps due to Narya) of fire. Gandalf was a friend and teacher to Aragorn seemingly above all other Men, and the two helped each other greatly.... "Gandalf" was the name given him by the Men of the North. He was called Mithrandir by the Elves; the Westron forms Grey Wanderer and Grey Pilgrim [any relation to Odin/Wotan here???] were also used. He was called Tharkun by the Dwarves, Incanus by the Haradrim, Gandalf Greyhame by the Rohirrim, and at various times Stormcrow (by Theoden), Lathspell (by Grima) and the Grey Fool (by Denethor II, who disliked him because of his friendship with Thorongil, the rival of his youth). He was also known as the Enemy of Sauron and (during the WR) the White Rider. His real name, given him in Valinor in his youth, was Olorin. Also, one poster mentioned concern about the dwarves and Bilbo (in The Hobbit) being given ponies, while Gandalf was always given a horse. Dwarves and Hobbits are too short to comfortably ride horses, and Gandalf is rather too tall to manage a pony. So you could say it _is_ a circumstance of stature >grin!<. Barb ------------------------------ From: ptsfd!djo@caip.rutgers.edu (Dan'l Oakes) Subject: Re: Gandalf Date: 29 Apr 86 18:21:23 GMT First of all, to the easy answers -- it was Robert Foster's "Guide to Middle-Earth," now supplanted by the "Complete Guide" etc. And No, Gandalf was certainly **not** Manwe. In "Unfinished Tales," now available (at last) in large sized paperback, Tolkien's short essay "On the Istari" is printed, along with some scattered notes on the subject, for the first time. Highly recommended reading to anyone interested in the background. (There is also an essay on the Woses -- Ghan- Buri-Ghan's people, or the Druadan, which greatly affects one's understanding of LOTR. As, in fact, does most of UT -- it even explains Queen Beruthiel's cats. But I digress.) The essay tells how it was decided in Valinor to send the Istari forth, and how they were chosen. The two "missing" Istari are explained, a little, but no names are given. They were both Blue in color, went East (apparently their mission, at least as they perceived it, was out there) and were never heard from again in the West of Middle-Earth. Saruman *may* have gone with them and *may* have known something about what happened to them if he did. Saruman (Curunir) was chosen by the Valar to be the leader of the Istari, but one Vala (I forget which, possibly Nienna) made a cryptic remark implying that Olorin (Gandalf) would be the better choice and must eventually lead. As to why there were no female Istari -- good question. Remember the time Tolkien wrote in, and, even more, the time in which he grew up. Then read the tale of Galadriel and Celeborn in UT and tell me if you don't think he was remarkably NON-sexist for a Catholic of his times. Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ------------------------------ From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer) Subject: Re: Character Copyright Date: 30 Apr 86 04:14:29 GMT utcsri!tom (Robert J. Sawyer) writes: >Harlan Ellison and Ben Bova won a plagerism suit against ABC TV, >claiming that the idea of a crusty street cop partnered with a >robot was original to them ... "For the record, Harlan Ellison and I won our suit against ABC, Paramount, et al., because, I believe, the jury found that the defendants had taken substantial amounts of our words -- a couple of full scripts, reams of background material, and outlines of plots -- and incorporated them into their own production. It wasn't merely the _idea_ of a robot cop that was in question; it was the details of our work. Indeed, the defendants based their case on the concept that ideas cannot be plagiarized (and strongly implied that all science fiction ideas are ripped off from other sources!). But the jury found that there was much more to the matter than simply the basic idea of `Brillo.'" Ben Bova, quoted from a letter in Analog, Nov 1982. Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh) (Do you know how hard it is to find a particular *letter* in back issues?!) ------------------------------ From: oliveb!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barb Jernigan) Subject: Re: Paperback release dates Date: 29 Apr 86 18:47:31 GMT > From: Andrew Sigel > New books often come in and sell out of bookstores very quickly, > and most stores are poor about reordering these books. This > especially goes for the chain stores which, as they get more and > more computerized, they also get increasingly less flexible. > (Employees can't get away with ordering books they know will sell > in the face of company policy, as the main office will catch them > at it.) Which means we should go out of our way to support the smaller, specialty bookstores. You may not think your $5 book amounts to much, but those $5 add up really fast (take it from someone with a $50-$100 book bill each month). I hate to see the impersonality of the chains take over -- especially when my favorite small bookstore will order ANYTHING currently in print for me with no surcharge. Besides, it's awful nice to walk in and say to the store owner "Hi, Kevin, what's good?" and get a Real answer. Sorry to get on a soapbox about this, but I've done a LOT of book shopping through the years, and my vote goes to the little guys. Let's support them -- they deserve it. Barb ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 May 86 1020-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #98 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 2 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 98 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov (2 msgs) & Brust & Holdstock & Leiber (2 msgs) & Moorcock (2 msgs) & Tolkien (6 msgs) & Wolfe & Funny SF Miscellaneous - Publisher's Tricks ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 86 08:46 PDT From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Asimov's decendants Leigh Ann noted that Dr. Asimov only has a daughter and wonders how the family name could get carried on this way so that one of Dr. A's decendants could be mentioned in "Duck Dodgers in the 25th and a Half Century". Well, there she goes being sexist (unknowingly, mind you). Couldn't a woman of the 80's take her own name and pass it on? And what if she were (heaven forbib!) an unwed mother? Please, I mean no slur on her; I am just trying to make all the possibilities clear. After all, she is the daughter of one of the world's most notably vainglorious authors. Isn't it possible that they would want the Asimov name to flourish? And what about a hyphenated name? There are endless possibilities. Let's not just fall back on stereotypes, ok Leigh Ann Oster? Jon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 86 17:28:38 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: David Asimov David is Isaac's son. ------------------------------ From: warwick!kay@caip.rutgers.edu (Kay Dekker) Subject: Re: JHEREG by Steven Brust Date: 27 Apr 86 15:38:44 GMT >From: chuq%plaid@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) >> The story starts out very uneven. In the first few pages we meet >> Vlad as a boy and learn how he "imprinted" the jhereg. Then, with >> no explanation, he is an adult, head of a successful assassin's >> syndicate. I presume that a previous book by the author covers >> the intervening years, but there's no mention of this in the >> story. > >I disagree. Brust built up enough background to give you some >context on the society and the characters, and then jumped into the >fray. In both Jhereg and Yendi he flashes back into history when he >needs to make a point or clarify something. If he'd stopped and >taken the time to write the whole life of Vlad, he would have ended >up with a 12 volume book, most of it probably boring... I'd quite like to see more about the early life of Vlad, and I hope that Brust writes some of it. And I can't imagine him writing anything boring. I've read the first 3 books (Jhereg, Yendi and To Reign in Hell) and found them splendid pieces of writing. I can't wait to get hold of Brokedown Palace... Kay. ... mcvax!ukc!warwick!kay ------------------------------ From: warwick!kay@caip.rutgers.edu (Kay Dekker) Subject: Re: Mythago Wood Date: 27 Apr 86 17:24:54 GMT >From: Roz >I've meant to write about this book ever since the topic of typos >came up. I got my copy from the Science Fiction Book Club. I >ALWAYS read the dust jacket of the book before reading the book >itself. Mythago Wood has two brothers in it; the jacket talks >about the story in terms of the two brothers and their relationship >to good and evil. My dust jacket consistently referred to one >brother as "good" and the other as "bad"; as a result when I read >the book I kept waiting for the brothers to do a personality swap! >It never happened...that's the biggest typo I've ever seen! I >enjoyed the book, but I had more unanswered questions when I was >done than when I started. Just shows that you can't judge a book by the jacket it wears! Anyhow, a *definite* 4 for Mythago Wood: Robert Holdstock has surpassed himself with this one... Saying that I read it without putting it down once isn't that big a statement (from me, anyway): saying that I read it without stopping for a coffee, a cigarette, or any other purpose, natural or unnatural, is! I'm sorry to hear it's hard to get hold of; it richly deserves to be read. And what's wrong with unanswered questions?... Kay. ... mcvax!ukc!warwick!kay ------------------------------ From: thain@magic.DEC.COM (Glenn Thain) Subject: Re: Fritz Leiber Date: 30 Apr 86 01:39:34 GMT Last time I heard, Fritz Leiber was still alive and living in San Fransisco, although I admit my information is about two years out of date. I talked with him awhile back however, and he didn't mention anymore Fafhrd/Grey Mouser stories as at that time he was in poor health and wasn't writing. However you've prompted me to check, as Fritz and I have a mutual friend in common, which is how I met him in the first place. If anyone knows about Fritz Leiber, it's him, as they use to have dinner together at least once a week. I'll check with him and keep everyone posted...... Glenn thain@decwrl P.S. - If anyone else has info, I'm sure Steve and I would be interested, thanks alot.....Glenn ------------------------------ Date: Wed 30 Apr 86 11:07:08-EDT From: BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU Subject: Leiber dead? No way!! he has a column in Locus. And if he doesn't damn well get Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser out of that damned island I'm going to do it for him after he dies! (indirect threat there, if any of you ever have any contact with him :-) Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser are my favorite fictional characters, and leaving them in effective wedlock on Rime Isle is cruel and unusual punishment -- the Lords of Necessity will have something to say about that! ------------------------------ From: reed!soren@caip.rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen) Subject: Re: Re: Eternal Champion Date: 29 Apr 86 06:41:58 GMT >I read a (truly bad) Moorcock book called _Time of the Hawklords_ >about ten years ago; it was loosely based on the rock group >Hawkwind, and I don't think it connected overtly with anything else >he's written. I think it's now out of print. Small loss. > >Ellen Unfortunately not true. Moorcock's band in the book, The Deep Fix, has shown up in several of the other books. I believe they even existed in the (Moorcock, I know, would hate me for using this word but I have to) real world. Has anyone ever seen/heard it? I disagree about the merits of the book, though; I thought it was hysterically funny myself. I understand that he didn't really write the book--that the idea was his but that Butterworth (credited with Moorcock on the book) actually did all the writing. Anyhow, my question still stands. Soren Petersen ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 1986 13:12 EDT (Wed) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" To: Brown%CSNET-RELAY@EDDIE.MIT.EDU, David To: D%CSNET-RELAY@EDDIE.MIT.EDU, To: Subject: Eternal Champion John Daker The Eternal Champion Phoenix in Obsidian (also called The Silver Warriors) Elric of Melnibone Elric of Melnibone Sailor on the Seas of Fate Wierd of the White Wolf Vanishing Tower Bane of the Black Sword Stormbringer Dorian Hawkmoon (aka Runestaff Cycle) Jewel in the Skull Mad God's Amulet Sword of the Dawn The Runestaff Prince Corum Knight of the Swords Queen of the Swords King of the Swords Oak and the Ram Bull and the Spear Sword and the Stallion Castle Brass (read these last) Count Brass Champion of Garathorm Quest for Tanelorn ------------------------------ From: sah@ukc.ac.uk (S.A.Hill) Subject: Re: Gandalf Date: 28 Apr 86 11:07:12 GMT bhaskar@cvl.UUCP writes: >I am now reading Tolkien's "The Hobbits", "The Hobbit" please. >My question is about Gandalf. Does the author explicitly mention >anywhere what type of "being" Gandalf was ? Gandalf (Olorin, Mithrandir, ...) was one of the Istari (or Wizards). They appeared in the west of Middle Earth about the time that Sauron starting making trouble. This gives us a clue as to their origin and is about all you can glean from the trilogy. Gandalf was asked who he was and replied with a list of his names ending (from memory in The Two Towers I think) "... Olorin in the west in my youth that is forgotten, to the east I go not." So it is clear that he came from Valinor. If you read "The Simarillion" and "Unfinished Tales", it becomes clear that Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast and the two blue wizards were in fact Maia - beings of an angelic/diabolic nature. Indeed Sauron and the Balrog were of the same race. The Maia and the Valar (whom men have often called gods) came into Ea (the world) at its creation. Tom Bombadil and the River Daughter were probably Maia as well. (See "A Tolkien Bestiary"). >P.S. Does anybody see strong parallels with the Star Wars novels ? Not really. ------------------------------ Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #90 Date: Wed, 30 Apr 86 09:42:39 -0500 From: Bill Dowling > My question is about Gandalf. Does the author explicitly mention > anywhere what type of "being" Gandalf was ? Several species of > life are mentioned - hobbits, men, dwarves, elves among them. Into > which category did Gandalf fit ? Is Wizard a separate class ? To my recollection, Gandalf is never directly identified as being a human, elf, hobbit or whatever. There is a strong indication however that Gandalf was an elf since he possessed one of the three elven rings of power. This fact is made clear in the final chapter of The Return of the King. His appearance should not be considered any indication of his true race because it was well within his ability, partly due to his ring, to assume almost any appearance. He never really takes on drastically different forms but after his incident in Moria with the balrog he takes on his bright white form. He also on occasion takes on an enlarged form in order to intimidate a particular character. There is also a passage in The Fellowship of the Ring in which Frodo finds himself in Lorien where he encounters Galadriel. Frodo offers to give up the One Ring to her in an effort to end his quest. During this encounter, Galadriel's true form, that of an ancient elven woman, is revealed to Frodo. Galadriel was also in possession of one of the three elven rings of power (Elrond possessed the third), and it was this ring that allowed her to maintain her youthful appearance. I assume Gandalf used his ring in a similar manner except he chose an appearance more suited to his style and needs. These random bits of information seem to account for Gandalf's timeless appearance. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 86 09:30 CDT From: Brett Slocum Subject: Gandalf's race From what I remember of the Silmarillion and Tolkein's Lost Tales, Gandalf and the other Wizards were minor gods sent by Vanye, the chief god. They took on human form and entered Middle-Earth to guide the Elves and Humans as councillors. They were essentially immortal, but were subject to some human frailties. For example, Saruman succombed to the lust for power. Brett Slocum --(Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA) ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_avrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Victoria Rosly D'ull) Subject: Re: Tolkien, inscription, Legolas (really Elvish-language Subject: trivia) Date: 29 Apr 86 00:48:56 GMT > The Elves of the Greenwood did indeed have their own dialect; but > Legalos came from a well-educated family. His father must have > known more Quenya than I: `legalos' is supposed to mean > `greenleaf', but it certainly does not mean that in Sindarin, and > I guess that it is Quenya (it sounds right at any rate). Actually, his name was Legolas, which does indeed mean "greenleaf" in Quenya (`Lego'="green" + `las, lasse'="leaf"). The _Silmarillion_ has a glossary of various Elvish-name roots in one of the appendices; I think both of these are in there. If anyone is interested in suchlike lore, I'd also recommend a book by Ruth Noel (I think), called _The_Languages_of_Middle-Earth_. It covers several Elvish tongues in various detail, and Tolkien's other languages as well, and then there's the section with the translations of all the quotes.... Vicka d'Ull @ Johns Hopkins ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 86 08:23 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Gandalf Cc: cvl!bhaskar@caip.rutgers.edu (Bhaskar) Actually, there are a lot of questions raised in The Hobbit and LotR that are not answered until the Silmarilion, if then. I believe that Gandalf's appearance was that of a Man, but, in reality, the Wizards were Ainur (Tolkien's mythology equivalent of angels or saints. Sauron was one, as well, and, I believe, the Balrogs) so had the power to appear as they wished. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 86 08:29 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Tolkien and Star Wars Cc: cvl!bhaskar@caip.rutgers.edu (Bhaskar) Yes, I think the parallels are definitely there, but that's because both are based on the recurring themes of myth, or Jung's archetypes, if you prefer. The Hero, the Magician, the Monster, the Quest, etc. Look to Beowulf and King Arthur myths for other examples. They all fit into what a prof of mine called the Type A myth. Although my favorite is the Type B myth examplified by the oldest known myth, Gilgamesh, as well as such tv shows as Star Trek and Remington Steele. Lisa ------------------------------ From: warwick!kay@caip.rutgers.edu (Kay Dekker) Subject: Re: BotNS words Date: 27 Apr 86 16:12:58 GMT >From: roberts%forty2.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM > Can anyone enlighten me on the meaning/derivation of the words > Wolfe uses for Urth's currency. One in particular I'd like to find > out more about is "orichalk". [for nlang readers, "Wolfe" is Gene Wolfe, who has written (among other works) _The_Book_of_the_New_Sun_, which is set in a place named Urth. If you like SF as part of your literary diet, I'd recommend it] ORICHALC: also in Latin form ORICHALCUM; from Greek orikhalkon, literally "mountain-copper". In later Latin made into AURICHALCUM, as if "golden-copper". Some yellow ore or alloy of copper, highly prized by the ancients; perhaps brass. [Shorter Oxford Dictionary] Kay. ... mcvax!ukc!warwick!kay ------------------------------ From: warwick!kay@caip.rutgers.edu (Kay Dekker) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 27 Apr 86 15:31:31 GMT (Larry Wake) lkw@csun.UUCP writes: >> Try the following: >> Bill the Galactic Hero, by Harry Harrison > ^^^^ >The title is BIL THE GALACTIC HERO, and it was one of the funniest >sf books I'd ever read...is it still in print? I read it back in >early hiskool days, and haven't been able to find a copy since. Actually, it *is* "Bill the Galactic Hero", at least according to the label on the BBC Enterprises cassette which is lying by my terminal... Bill the Galactic Hero, by Harry Harrison, told by Kerry Shale Abridged and produced by Paul Mayhew-Archer Music by the BBC Radiophonic Workshop ZCM 532 (stereo, Dolby) As for funnies: try PROSTHO PLUS by Piers Anthony... a zany story about a prosthodontist who becomes the property of aliens. It *still* makes me roll about on the floor even after the zillionth reading. Kay. ... mcvax!ukc!warwick!kay ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 86 10:46:30 pdt From: Doug Faunt Cc: yduj@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Publisher's dirty tricks My favorite SF bookstore, The Other Change Of Hobbit, in Berkeley, puts up "consumer notes" in cases like this, and would love to pass on flames about such things. ...!ihnp4!{hplabs|decwrl}!spar!faunt faunt@sri-kl.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 May 86 1052-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #99 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 3 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 99 Today's Topics: Books - Brin & Leiber & Sturgeon & Tolkien (5 msgs) & Wilson, Miscellaneous - Slang ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bakerst!bob@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob White) Subject: David Brin's book _THE POSTMAN_ Date: 29 Apr 86 23:20:58 GMT I've been trying to find David Brin's book _THE POSTMAN_, but have been unable to find it in the various bookstores in the area. I've noticed that it is nominated for a HUGO award for best novel, so evidentally there are some people out there that have read it. Is the book out in the trade, or are people reading the galley proofs of the book? I'm a Brin fan after reading _STARTIDE RISING_, so any help finding _THE POSTMAN_ would be greatly appreciated! Bob White Mail: 5123 Ramillie Run Usenet: ihnp4!kitty!bakerst!bob Winston-Salem, NC 27106 Phone: (919) 924-0975 ------------------------------ From: puff!anich@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Anich) Subject: Re: Leiber dead? Date: 30 Apr 86 22:43:15 GMT > And if he doesn't damn well get Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser out of > that damned island I'm going to do it for him after he dies! > (indirect threat there, if any of you ever have any contact with > him :-) > > Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser are my favorite fictional characters, > and leaving them in effective wedlock on Rime Isle is cruel and > unusual punishment -- the Lords of Necessity will have something > to say about that! I have read 2 short stories that take place after the "Swords and Ice Magic" book. Each focased on a different person(Fafhrd or the Grey Mouser). The were in a Leiber short story collection(sorry, I don't remember the name). steve anich ------------------------------ From: apollo!johnf@caip.rutgers.edu (John Francis) Subject: Re: Funny F & FS Date: 29 Apr 86 21:43:47 GMT > I want to add a story (I think by Sturgeon) that sticks in my > mind: "The [Widget], the [Wadget], and Boff," collected in a > Boucher two volume classics collection the name of which I have > forgotten. This is, indeed, by Theodore Sturgeon. It can also be found in a collection "The Joyous Invasions" with two of his other stories - "To Marry Medusa" and "The Comedian's Children" ------------------------------ Date: Wed 30 Apr 86 15:00:02-EDT From: Scott Schneider Subject: LOTR & Star Wars > P.S. Does anybody see strong parallels with the Star Wars novels? I'd have to agree with your roommate. For starters: 1) The nature of the wars in the two stories are vastly different. The fight in LOTR is against the encroachment of an ancient evil that threatens to uproot the status quo, while STAR WARS concerns itself with a rebellion. 2) Frodo's quest remains constant throughout the tale: to destroy the ring. Luke, on the other hand, has many different quests which constantly change through the course of the story: to rescue the Princess, to destroy the Death Star, to seek out Yoda, etc. 3) This difference is reflected in the geography of their voyages. Frodo's is comparatively straight -- he goes to Mordor and then back; while Luke and company continually travel to and fro, often returning to the site of a previous adventure. 3) Luke grows to be a warrior who confronts the enemy directly. Frodo does not. 4) Frodo's family, outside of Uncle Bilbo, is of minimal importance to the story. Luke's family is key to the action of the story. (For example, his father is the enemy.) 5) LOTR principle source material is mythic, primarily Norse. The main inspiration for STAR WARS, as well as an important influence on its style, is Pop Culture, primarily Hollywood (a very different type of mythology). Tolkien was a scholar of the written language, while George Lucas is oriented towards a visual language. I could go on like this for a while, but I think my point is clear. The similarities between the two are no more than you would expect to find in the comparison of *any* two epic tales, while the structural differences are vast. May the force be with you and all your hobbits be good ones. ------------------------------ From: petsd!cjh@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Henrich) Subject: Re: Gandalf Date: 29 Apr 86 17:42:54 GMT bhaskar@cvl.UUCP writes: >My question is about Gandalf. Does the author explicitly mention >anywhere what type of "being" Gandalf was ? Several species of life >are mentioned - hobbits, men, dwarves, elves among them. Into which >category did Gandalf fit ? Is Wizard a separate class ? Yes, and rather a mysterious one. (My impression is that they looked like full-size humans or elves. I think of Gandalf as being tall, bony, gray-haired.) In the appendices at the end of volume III you will find that the Wizards arrived in Middle Earth some three thousand years before the events in LOTR. They did not age appreciably during that time, as far as we can tell (unfortunately, no photographs have survived). Somewhere outside the text of LOTR, Tolkien said that he regarded the Wizards as Angels who agreed to become incarnate. (Since this is fiction, we can accept that, even if we don't believe in Angels in our own universe.) Tolkien did not put this in LOTR, because he systematically avoided discussing religion there (either his own or that of the characters). If it makes Gandalf seem a puzzling and inexplicable figure, well the people around Gandalf probably thought so too. Regards, Christopher J. Henrich UUCP: ...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh US Mail: MS 313; Concurrent Computer Corporation; 106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 Phone: (201) 758-7288 ------------------------------ From: Chris McMenomy Subject: Of the races of Middle Earth and the sources of myth [LONG] Date: Wed, 30 Apr 86 14:28:08 PDT Of Gandalf the Istar In LotR, Gandalf is explicitly identified as an Istari, one of five Wizards who appeared in Middle Earth after the Fall of Numenor, sent from beyond the sundering seas to aid Middle Earth in its struggle against Sauron. Saruman is "the head of the order" which together with Elrond and Galadriel formed the White Council to fight the Necromancer. The only other named Istari is Radagast the brown, an expert on plants and animals. The Elvish tales of the creation of the world recorded in "The Silmarillion" explain that Iluvatar (ie, God) together with the Valar and Mayar (two orders of angels) created the world. Some of these divine beings chose to live on it; but the chief Vala, Morgoth, turned against Iluvatar and corrupted the earth. The Vala Lorien, a healer, had a Maya follower named Olorin. In LotR, Elrond says that one of Gandalf's names is Olorin; notes in "The Silmarillion" identify Olorin with Gandalf, which makes him, and presumably the other Istari, Mayar sent by the Valar to Middle Earth. Sauron is also a Maya, one of Morgoth's subordinates; he escaped the fall of Morgoth's fortress Thangorabadrim during the destruction of Beleriand at the end of the First Age, when Morgoth was banished from Middle Earth by a coalition of Elves, Men and Valar. The only other Maya mentioned at length is Melian, the mother of Luthien Tinuviel, Aragorn's ancesstress. Of the other Races of Middle Earth Besides the races of Valar and Mayar, which were divine beings, Iluvatar created immortal Elves and mortal Men. Elves never leave Middle Earth; if they are killed they enter the Halls of the Vala Mandos for a time, then reappear. Men "pass beyond the circles of the world" at death. The Dwarves were the creation of Aule, a Vala whose primary care was the minerals and mountains; but he couldn't make them do any more than echo his own thoughts. In creating a sentient race, he trespassed on Iluvatar's territory; when confronted by Iluvatar he reluctantly agreed to give up the dwarves to destruction. Iluvatar instead blessed them and gave them truly independent existence. Morgoth echoed Aule's sin, but his creatures were all derivative: Orcs from Elves and Men, Trolls from Dwarves, the Balrogs from Valar; dragons were a mix of various animals. Ents were probably the creation of Yavanna, Aule's consort and mistress of trees. Tolkien does not say who was responsible for the creation of hobbits. Sources: LotR and the Hobbit, of course; "The Silmarillion", "Unfinished Tales", "The Book of Lost Tales" (in two volumes); various dictionaries for terms from Middle Earth; Tolkien's Letters and Biography (H. Carpenter). Of LotR and Star Wars First off, you are wrong: both stories are set in the past. Tolkien says of Bilbo that he is smoking his pipe on a day in the Morning of the World; the preface to Star Wars IV set it "A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away....". The similarities between the two are the result of sharing the same typical story genre, the innocent fool who becomes a hero, aided by wisdom incarnate in an old man (or woman) and some special powers. But the cosmology of Middle Earth differs considerably from that of Star Wars. Tolkien's inspiration for the way his world works is largely Judeo- Christian, with medieval elements; a lot of the details come from the northern European legends (the names of the dwarves, and even Gandalf, are straight out of the Elder Edda; a lot of the hobbit's names -- Froda, Meriadoc, Isengrim -- are from Merovingian French; the Roharrim have Anglo-Saxon roots). Lucas's Star Wars universe has a world order like Zen: the Force is an impersonal and neutral power which men can learn to use either for good or evil. There are no gods or supernatural creatures; rather, anyone who can use the Force can tap into special talents which are extensions of the natural world. As for details in the plot, personally, I find Star Wars resembles the Arthurian sagas. [Try Luke = Arthur, Darth Vader = Uther Pendragon; Leia Organa = Morgan le Fay; Obi Wan Kenobi = Merlin; Han = Lancelot, the flawed knight; Uncle Owen = Sir Ector Demaris.] By the way, I disagree with Elaine Richards that medievalism can get pretty dry. Medieval intellectual culture was a synthetic one, driven by the desire to create a holistic world view in which all natural science, religion, philosophy, social institutions and practical knowledge were interconnected parts of a coherent system. The created cosmologies of Tolkien and Lucas are in that tradition and draw heavily on it. But it is hard for modern man, brought up in the heavily analytic/specialist aftermath of the Renaissance, to penetrate the medieval world view. Sorry for the length. Every once in a while I remember I was a scholar once, before they put this computer in front of me and said "program or perish." Christe McMenomy, PhD (History/UCLA) Rand Corporation ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 86 10:13 EST From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: More Tolkien pre-script: If anyone wants to learn more about anything in the Tolkien books, read _The Silmarillion_. Reads kind of like the Bible, but if you could get through LOtR you could probably get through this. OK, here's the scoop on Gandalf. Somewhere in _Return of the King_ when (I believe) Aragorn is talking to someone else about Gandalf, the other says, "Yes, he said to me, 'I am Mithrandir to the Elves, Gandalf to men, and Olorin in the West that is forgotten'" (or something like that). The key here is Olorin. A little background is necessary to explain this... The Creator of the Universe is Iluvatar. He made two kinds of "angels" the Valar (higher) and Maiar (lesser). (not strictly accurate, since the Valar were only called such when they went down to Arda) Anyway, Olorin is described as one of the wisest of the Maiar. Thus, he's sort of a lesser angel. Actually, all the wizards were Maiar, I think -- someone stop me if I'm wrong. They all came out of Valinor... Oh, and I'd also like to hear an explanation of Gandalf's comment how "Merry, of all of us, was the closest". nj ------------------------------ From: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu (Michaelntz) Subject: Re: Gandalf (and Star Wars) Date: 30 Apr 86 16:03:00 GMT > I hadn't thought of that before! Star Wars is set in the past, of > course (this is announced before the title, even), but it never > occurred to me that Middle Earth is in the future. I don't think it is. I haven't read LotR in years, so I can't do the serious detail a lot of people on net.sf still seem capable of, but as I recall, the story takes place a long time ago on the European continent. There are several ages, and during LotR the Age of Man is just beginning - during the course of the work we see various races disappearing from the Earth - the journey toward the Sea, etc. The implication being that as more time passes only humans will be left. Further: recall in The Hobbit, when Gandalf, speaking in the present, talks about how it's difficult to spot a hobbit *NOWADAYS*? I think it's clear that Middle Earth is pre-modern history. Though I would welcome argument. Summer's always a good time to delve... mike krantz ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_adjb@caip.rutgers.edu (Daniel Jay Barrett) Subject: Re: F. Paul Wilson Date: 27 Apr 86 18:28:04 GMT > From: jon@csvax.caltech.edu (Jonathan P. Leech) > Can anyone tell me what F. Paul Wilson has written? I have > found only 2 books (_Healer_ and _An_Enemy_Of_The_State) and would > like more if they exist. Didn't he also write THE KEEP? I found this book to be one of the finest horror novels I've read. Briefly, it's about Nazis inhabiting a haunted castle during WWII. The great thing about the book is that you don't know whom to "root for"; if the Nazis win, then chalk one up for Hitler, but if the "monster" wins, it is unleashed on the Earth. I read the whole thing in a single, spellbound sitting. BTW, it came out as a movie two years ago. Worst piece of shit I ever saw on the screen. Don't judge the book by it! Dan ------------------------------ From: ur-tut!scco@caip.rutgers.edu (Sean Colbath) Subject: Re: slang Date: 30 Apr 86 01:35:53 GMT >From: Rob Freundlich > There was a survey done recently (I think by Newsweek, but I'm >not sure) which looked at the current slang on college campuses. >Anyone who's read _Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy_ should >recognize the slang from University of Rochester: a cool person is >"hoopy" or "froody" (As in "You sass that hoopy Ford Prefect? >There's one frood who really knows where his towel is!"). Aaahh yes, I remember that poll... Actually, it's quite interesting how those Newsweek "On Campus" polls are conducted. There is a small kiosk located in our union (Wilson commons), known as "The Polling Poll" (ick) that has a small alphabetic membrane keyboard and a video screen. It runs in a sort of "attract mode" until someone comes up and starts playing with it. It then leads you through a series of color graphics and menus dealing with this month's poll, allowing you to pick "one of the above", or in some cases, "all that apply"... The most interesting thing that happens is when it dies - the screen turns entirely blue and the message "Commodore Basic - 32K free" appears at the top... :-) I really wonder about the validity of some of the results, though. I recently watched as a friend of mine took a poll, dealing primarially with fashion trends on campus. Most of the time he had to answer "Other" or "None of the above". On the menu dealing with upcoming trends in college fashion, you had to pick what you thought would be next year's style. One of the choices out of about 20 was Nehru jackets. Nehru jackets??? Gimme a break!!! Actually, I must say, for the record, that I have never heard anyone at the University of Rochester use the words "hoopy" *or* "froody". I do know a couple of people who would definitely qualify as zeebs, though! :-) Sean Colbath UUCP: ...allegra!rochester!ur-tut!scco BITNET: SCCO@UORVM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 May 86 1147-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #100 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 3 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 100 Today's Topics: Books - Moorcock & Niven & Rogers & Sheckley & Tolkien (2 msgs) & Story Request & Codex Seraphinianus & Animals Miscellaneous - Survey of Words ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ihuxl!gandalf@caip.rutgers.edu (Schurman) Subject: Re: Eternal Champion Date: 30 Apr 86 01:42:42 GMT > From: Brown@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA >A while ago, somebody mentioned a series of books written by >Michael Moorcock based on his "Eternal Champion" concept. Having >just finished the Elric Saga, I would be very interested if someone >would post a list of the books that make up the series All of Moorcock books are related to some extent, but those tied most closely to the Eternal Champion concept involve the characters of Elric, Corum, Hawkmoon, and Erekose. Much of Moorcocks work appeared first in magazines and was later collected into books. For example _Stormbringer_ is a novelization of the four short stories _Black Sword's Brother_, _Dead God's Homecomming_, _Doomed Lord's Passing_, and _Sad Giant's Shield_. The contents of the British and American editions differ in some cases. As if that wasn't enough Moorcock made some heavy revisions to the editions that appeared in the late 70s, to make the cycle more consistent. Now is a good time to be reading these books because Berkeley is reissuing almost all of them. (The last 3 Hawkmoon book have been notoriously hard to find) Anyhow - here's the list... The ELRIC novels (in order) 1. Elric of Melnibone (British: The Dreaming City) 2. A Sailor on the Seas of Fate 3. Weird of the White Wolf (British: The Stealer of Souls) 4. The Vanishing Tower (British: The Sleeping Sorceress) 5. The Bane of the Black Sword 6. Stormbringer 7. Elric at the End of Time (A short story found in the collection of the same name) The CORUM novels (in order) 1. The Knight of the Swords 2. The Queen of the Swords 3. The King of the Swords 1,2,&3 collected as The Swords Trilogy 4. The Bull and the Spear 5. The Oak and the Ram 6. The Sword and the Stallion 4,5,&6 collected as The Chronicles of Corum The HAWKMOON novels (in order) 1. The Jewel in the Skull 2. The Mad God's Amulet (British: Sorcerer's Amulet) 3. The Sword of the Dawn 4. The Runestaff (British: The Secret of the Runestaff) 5. Count Brass 6. The Champion of Garathorm (Can also be read as Erekose #3) 7. The Quest for Tanelorn (Can also be read as Erekose #4) Erekose 1. The Eternal Champion 2. The Silver Warriors (British: Phoenix in Obsidian) Incarnations of the E.C. in more modern times include Jerry Corneilus and Oswald Bastable. The JERRY CORNELIUS novels (in order) 1. The Final Program 2. A Cure for Cancer 3. The English Assassin 4. The Condition of Muzak 1,2,3,&4 collected as The Cornelius Cronicles 5. The Lives (sic) and Times of Jerry Cornelius 6. The Adventures of Una Persson and Catherine Cornelius in the 20th Century The OSWALD BASTABLE novels (in order) 1. The Warlord of the Air 2. The Land Leviathan 3. The Steel Tsar There are others, including Michael Kane and Karl Glogauer, but my fingers are getting tired. Try getting a copy of _A Reader's Guide to Fantasy_ by Searles, Meacham, & Franklin (C 1981 from Avon), or better still _The Tanelorn Archives_ by Richard Bilyeu (C 1982 from Pandora's Books) The Elric, Corum, Hawkmoon, and Erekose stories are some of the best swords & sorcery fiction around. Moorcock practically defined the (S&S) genre when he wrote them. I recommend them highly. Happy reading, Ralph Schurman ...!ihnp4!ihuxl!gandalf ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: And Still More Funny/Humorous SF (ASTRA & FLONDRIX and Subject: others) Date: 29 Apr 86 12:14:40 GMT I *think* the title for the collection of the Svetz stories was "The Flight of the Horse" rather than "Get a Horse." "Get a Horse" was the title of the particular story that had to do with a horse. I don't want to say for sure because the only copy I have is in German, and while the German title is "Der Flug des Pferdes" who knows what the publisher would have done.... Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: 01 May 86 02:07 EDT From: UUAJ%CORNELLA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: Funny F&SF In all this discussion, I wonder why no has yet cited "The Adventures of Samurai Cat", written and lavishly illustrated by Mark E. Rogers. It's a fabulously silly work, beginning as a story about a cat who happens to be a samurai, then about 10pp. into the story one reaches a paragraph where the 100 hits of acid one unknowingly dropped a half hour previously all suddenly kick in at once. If you should happen across this book, do NOT page through it nor peruse the back-cover blurb until you've read the first chapter, else the "Say WHAT?" value of the above-mentioned passage will be severly diluted. A fine book, especially for those who enjoy literary reference games. ------------------------------ From: boring!lambert@caip.rutgers.edu (Lambert Meertens) Subject: Re: SF Humor Date: 1 May 86 01:27:00 GMT From: Kinsman David J <8440827%wwu.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA> > Has anyone come accross any SF humor similar in nature to the > Douglas Adams trilogy. I loved those books and am interested in > finding others that are similar. I find the humor in Robert Sheckley's "Dimension of Miracles" (1968, Dell, and so dating from Before The Trilogy) of a similar spirit. Absurdity prevails and rather than having these one or mayhap two deviations from accepted physical laws traditionally granted the author in SF, physics as we know it is irrelevant and events (and people) are driven by their own, crazy, logic. Lambert Meertens ...!{seismo,okstate,garfield,decvax,philabs}!lambert@mcvax.UUCP CWI (Centre for Mathematics and Computer Science), Amsterdam ------------------------------ From: gds@sri-spam.ARPA (Greg Skinner) Subject: Re: Gandalf Date: 1 May 86 03:17:29 GMT djo@ptsfd.UUCP (Dan'l Oakes) writes: > First of all, to the easy answers -- it was Robert Foster's "Guide > to Middle-Earth," now supplanted by the "Complete Guide" etc. And > No, Gandalf was certainly **not** Manwe. I just looked at a copy of "Unfinished Tales", and on page 395 it indicates that some thought Gandalf was Manwe in disguise, but in fact Manwe is not to leave Taniquetil (the mountain upon which he stays) until the Last Battle. The relevant sections of "Unfinished Tales" to read start at page 348 and page 388 -- one section is called "Of the Istari" which is where the appointment of the Istari is discussed. gregbo ------------------------------ From: mcgill-vision!mouse@caip.rutgers.edu (der Mouse) Subject: Re: Gandalf Date: 30 Apr 86 08:41:16 GMT bhaskar@cvl.UUCP (Bhaskar) writes: > My question is about Gandalf. Does the author explicitly mention > anywhere what type of "being" Gandalf was ? Several species of > life are mentioned - hobbits, men, dwarves, elves among them. Into > which category did Gandalf fit ? Is Wizard a separate class ? Separate from all of the above, at least. Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, etc, are Istari, or Wizards. They are of roughly the same order of being as Sauron. They are Maiar. With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before the World, of the same order as the Valar but of less degree. These are the Maiar, people of the Valar, and their servants and helpers. [...] Wisest of the Maiar was Ol\'orin. He too dwelt in L\'orien, but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience. [The Silmarillion, Valaquenta, `Of the Maiar'] and when Frodo was talking with Faramir: `The Grey Pilgrim?' said Frodo. `Had he a name?' `Mithrandir we called him in elf-fashion,' said Faramir, `and he was content. Many are my names in many co[u]ntries, he said. Mithrandir among the Elves, Thark\^un to the Dwarves, Ol\'orin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Inc\'anus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.' [LOTR, The Two Towers, `The Window on the West'] and Even as the first shadows were felt in Mirkwood there appeared in the west of Middle-earth the Istari, whom Men called the Wizards. None knew at that time whence they were, save C\'\i rdan of the Havens, and only to Elrond and Galadriel did he reveal that they came over the Sea. But afterwards it was said among the Elves tha they were messengers sent by the Lords of the West to contest the power of Sauron, if he should arise again, and to move Elves and Men and all living things of good will to valiant deeds. [...] and the peoples of Middle-earth gave to them many names, for their true names they did not reveal. Chief among them were those whom the Elves called Mithrandir and Curun\'\i r, but Men in the North named Gandalf and Saruman. [The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age] > If Tolkien does say something definite, I would like to know where > it is said . I do not have the time to start reading the trilogy > all over again. Try to find a copy of the Silmarillion; my copy has the following in the front pages: British Library Cataloguing in Publication Data Tolkien, John Ronald Reuel The silmarillion [sic]. I. Title II. Tolkien, Christopher 823'.9'1F PR6032.032S/ 78--40783 ISBN 0--04--823153--3 USA: {ihnp4,decvax,akgua,utzoo,etc}!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse philabs!micomvax!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse Europe: mcvax!decvax!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse mcvax!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!micomvax!musocs\ !mcgill-vision!mouse ARPAnet: utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa ------------------------------ From: ellie!colonel@caip.rutgers.edu (Col. G. L. Sicherman) Subject: Re: Time is Money Date: 29 Apr 86 18:26:07 GMT > About 5-10 years ago, an excellent short story appeared in Playboy > (yes, some people actually read the articles ;-) that really > illustrated the value of time. The article was called "Time is > Money" and the basic idea was that time, rather than money, was > used as the medium of exchange. Everyone was born with a certain > amount of time, and when you reached a certain age you had to > start earning your own time. It could be traded, saved, invested, > borrowed, loaned, used to buy goods, etc. But, when you finally > used up all of your time, you died. An old idea. I remember having seen it in an SF novel serialized in (F&SF?) in the 70's. It was about a planet where morality was enforced by surgically implanting remote-control death devices in newborns' brains. One person held the controls. Anybody remember it? I think it was nominated for some prize or other. Time is money, eh? I guess the winner is the one who dies at the most advanced age! Col. G. L. Sicherman UU: ...{rocksvax|decvax}!sunybcs!colonel CS: colonel@buffalo-cs BI: csdsicher@sunyabva ------------------------------ From: spar!dps@caip.rutgers.edu (Don Simpson) Subject: Re: _Codex_Seraphinianus_ Date: 30 Apr 86 16:48:32 GMT >From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU >Recently I was reading Douglas Hofstadter's _Metamagical_Themas_ >(not an sf book, but great for all you metaphilosophers, >mathematicians, linguists, Rubik's cubists, etc.) In his chapter >on nonsense I came across a reference to a book called >_Codex_Seraphinianus_, which he describes as an "encyclopedia" by >an Italian architect about some strange other world/universe with >full-color illustrations... written in a language completely >unknown on Earth. It must be a linguist's delight. Has anyone >here read it? I have a copy of _Codex_Seraphinianus_, which I enjoy greatly, and feel was well worth its high price. It is one of those works whose appeal comes (at least partly) from elements whose meaning seems to be somehow just out of reach. Like the _Voynitch_Manuscript_, it is in an unknown symbology of the "handwriting" style (looped, cursive, and connected). There are apparently somewhere around three hundred symbols, not counting what look like special technical symbols for mathmatical, chemical, or magical formulae. The page numbers are in a scheme vaguely like Roman numerals, which I did manage to figure out. It is a base twenty-one notation. I cannot really do justice to the illustrations here. They are *very* strange, and tantalising. There are neatly labled rows of what might be pills, or candies, or micro-organisms, or insect eggs, or some scheme for representing atoms or molecules.... And that is just one page. There are card games, costumes, festivals, tools and machines, even a section on the alphabet. Other examples of this sort of thing don't come to mind just now, but the mental effect is a bit similar to trying to figure out what is going on in some of Edward Gorey (_The_Willowdale_Handcar_) or Thomas Pynchon (_The_ _Crying_of_Lot_49_). Sort of like pornography for the pattern-finding part of the mind. Is there a language in there? It *looks* like there is.... ------------------------------ From: valid!jao@caip.rutgers.edu (John Oswalt) Subject: Re: animals animals animals Date: 30 Apr 86 22:05:49 GMT > "The Island of Dr. Moreau", by Jules Verne. Weird island with a > typical Vernian villian, i.e., mad scientist makes amazing > discovery and uses it Except it's by H. G. Wells. John Oswalt (..!{hplabs,amd,pyramid,ihnp4}!pesnta!valid!jao) ------------------------------ From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: tales of fen and filksong, and a survey Date: 28 Apr 86 19:33:20 GMT > From: Joel B Levin > As an individual unsocialized sf-lover for a long time but a > fairly recent subscriber to this digest, I would be interested in > seeing an etymology and definition of "fen" (I do have some idea > what it must mean). Also, while I know the meaning of "filksong," > I am curious about its etymology too. The derivations have always seemed so clear to me that I've never asked, so I may be wrong. I have always assumed that "fen" was the plural of "fan", just as "men" is the plural of "man". And "filksong" seems a natural contraction of "science fiction folksong". (Taking it in steps, "fiction" and "folksong" are combined because of generally similar rhythm and sound, and we have "science filksong". Then "filk" reminds of "silk" (the fricative-to-sibilant shift is easy to make, right?), so we are reminded of the S-F-ness of the derivation by using just "filksong".) There are other examples of such "whimsically regular" or "whimsically contracted" word coinages. An example of a whimsically regular word is "vaxen" as the plural of "vax" (just as "oxen" is the plural of "ox", and "boxen" is the plural of "box":-). This type of thing also leads to questions like "if a fortification is a large fort, is a ratification a large rat?", and so on. And whimsical contraction leads to many a sniglet, like "lactomangulation". Being interested in such things, I'll volunteer to collect a "cannonical collection of 'whimsically regular' words". *NOTE* that I am only interested in whimsically *regular* words... Rich Hall is doing all the sniglets :-). If you know of a fairly widely-used whimsically regular word, mail it to me and if enough come in I'll post a followup. If you send a word, please point out to me what the whimsical regularity is... despite having (I assume) "gotten" the regularity of "fen", I may easily miss others. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 May 86 1404-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #101 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 4 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 101 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Heinlein & Moorcock (2 msgs) & Pohl & Tolkien (3 msgs) & Story Request Answered, Television - The Twilight Zone, Miscellaneous - Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: THE NORBY CHRONICLES by Janet & Isaac Asimov Date: 1 May 86 22:06:37 GMT THE NORBY CHRONICLES by Janet and Isaac Asimov Ace, 1986 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper When I first saw this, complete with subtitle "More Asimov Robots!", I thought it might be part of his "real" robot series. However, a quick perusal indicated that this was not the case; it is in fact a juvenile totally unrelated to his other works. The other thing I noticed was that J. O. Jeppson (a.k.a. Janet Jeppson) had finally given in to the pressures of business and is now writing under the name "Janet Asimov." Be that as it may, the question is, "Is it any good?" Well, it's been a long time since I was of an age to really appreciate a juvenile novel, but I just had this feeling that this wasn't one. Jeff Wells, our teenage hero, has an older brother named Farley Gordon (he's called "Fargo Wells") and a second-hand robot named Norby ("one of the very ancient R2 models", which looks just like R2-D2 on the cover) and gets into trouble with them and eventually saves the Solar System from Ing the Ingrate and other nasties. Typical juvenile fare, but the situations are so unbelievable that no child old enough to read would believe it, or should. Example: the Inventors Union wants to take Norby apart to see what makes him tick. But Admiral Yobo is so friendly with Jeff that he breaks all sorts of rules to help them escape. Kids today are too sophisticated to believe that (I hope). Just to see if I had gotten out of touch with juvenile novels, I re- read DAVID STAR, SPACE RANGER. I had remembered it as being better than THE NORBY CHRONICLES and it was. I must conclude that this novel (actually two novellas "Norby, the Mixed-Up Robot" and "Norby's Other Secret") was marketed to capitalize on Asimov's name. Pass it by. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl (or ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl) ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_apmj@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick M Juola) Subject: Re: Heinlein's Future History Date: 1 May 86 01:29:27 GMT nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser) writes: >I had heard about this series of books, and am interested in >reading them, but I haven't been able to find out what the complete >series is. Could someone on the net please list what books are in >this series, and in what order they are in? E.g. Methuselah's >Children, Time Enough for Love. The complete FUTURE HISTORY, with the exception of TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE [and NOtb (gag me with a Libyan thermonuclear device)] can be found in the book THE PAST THROUGH TOMORROW. Why on Earth RAH called his Future History collection by this name is beyond me. They are also available as individual collections, of which the last two are REVOLT IN 2100 and M.C. (The others escape me at the moment.) TEFL is the last of the official Future History, but NOtb is rather like a Heinlein convention -- everyone from all of RAH's books show up, at least in the L'Envoi. Pat Juola Hopkins Maths ------------------------------ Date: Thu 1 May 86 11:16:46-EDT From: Laurence Brothers Subject: Eternal Champion -- you missed some What about Jerry Cornelius, Jherek Carnelian, and Jerry Cornell? You missed some of Moorcock's most important characters, though Cornelius starts off being contemporary fiction (and quickly turns into weird sf), and Cornell is not SF at all. Note the simple minded repetition of initials in a number of eternal champion incarnations. Jerry Cornelius "The Cornelius Chronicles", as well as some other works, is the modern avatar, overcome with angst, in a disintegrating world. Jherek Carnelian, "Legends From The End Of Time", et al is the avatar at the End of Time, where all the few remaining residents of Earth have near-infinite power. Jerry Cornell is a poor bloke of an intelligence agent, in some of the funniest spy fiction ever written -- "The Chinese Agent" and "The Russian Intelligence". Cornell is kind of like a failed Cornelius, and Cornelius is so badly off that Cornell is bathetically funny. In one of these novels, I forget which, just about all the characters from all his novels meet and discover they are related, kind of like the later Heinlein, only funnier. Laurence ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccrrick@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Heli) Subject: Re: Re: Eternal Champion Date: 1 May 86 05:52:55 GMT > He has also written a book called The Warhound and the World's > Pain that had absolutely nothing to the eternal champion. I beg to differ. Rename "God" "Law" and "Satan" "Chaos" and you have the Eternal Champion formula all over again. The Eternal Champion formula applied to our own world if you will. And the gaily dressed fop who comes in at the end reminds me of no one so much as Jhary-a-conel (known by Mabelrode as the "Eternal Lickspittle"). There is also the Michael Kane series which is ostensibly IN the Eternal Champion series, but appears to bear more resemblance to Edgar Rice Burroughs John Carter series than anything else. Of course, I have only read one of the books (they're hard to find), so I can't be sure. If the person who was so interested in collecting a list of all books that relate to Mars is still on the net, here are the titles: City of the Beast Lord of the Spiders Masters of the Pit Anyone know anything about these following Moorcock books? The Entropy Tango The Brothel in Rosenstrasse Or why Moorcock acknowledges Brecht's "Three-Penny Opera" at the outset of the Elric series? rick heli UUCP: ... {ucbvax,lll-lcc}!ucdavis!ccrrick INTERNET: ucdavis!ccrrick@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU ------------------------------ From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: BLACK STAR RISING by Frederik Pohl Date: 1 May 86 22:05:46 GMT BLACK STAR RISING by Frederik Pohl Del Rey, 1985 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper As a member of a two-income family, I am acutely aware of what can and cannot be written off on taxes. So it is with some assurance that I say that BLACK STAR RISING was written as a tax write-off. Why do I say that? Well, a year or so ago Fred Pohl visited China. BLACK STAR RISING takes place in a United States controlled by China (after an abortive nuclear exchange between the United States and the USSR). Castor (our hero) works on the Heavenly Grain Collective Farm outside Biloxi, Mississippi. When he finds a head in the rice paddies on the collective, he starts a sequence of events that embroil him in an alien (outer-space-type aliens this time) invasion of Earth. Pohl leans heavily on his experiences in China for background, right down to the ubiquitous orange soda. (I say this with some assurance also, since I've also been to China. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out how to write off the trip.) BLACK STAR RISING is better Pohl than I've seen in a while. (Bear in mind that I am not a big fan of recent Pohl novels.) It's not a great novel and some of the coincidences tax the reader's "willing suspension of disbelief," but the background is interesting (and reasonably accurate). If the ending seems a bit of a letdown, well, it was fun getting there. The number of questions left unanswered make me believe there may be a sequel down the road. (I don't see where the title comes from. It reminds me of Campbell's THE BLACK STAR PASSES--a great old-time space story I would recommend--but the two stories have nothing in common.) Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl (or ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 86 10:49:23 CDT From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI Subject: (Tolkien) Inscription on door There's been a lot of detail and scholarship shown in analyzing the situation in LOTR about the Elvish inscription on the door. The one aspect that hasn't been mentioned is the merely practical -- why wouldn't Gandalf have simply spoken the inscripted words aloud, either while reading them initially or while explaining the situation to the others in the party, and, by so doing, said the word "mellon" (I believe that was it?) and so triggered the door's opening? It wouldn't matter which of the punctuation-dependent meanings of the phrase he believed; just saying the phrase itself would mean that he spoke the word for 'friend' and the door would have opened. Or am I missing something, due to it being so long since I read LOTR? Did they have to shout the word into an opening or something like that? (So that using the phonemes in ordinary speech near the door would not have triggered the opening?) Will ------------------------------ From: olsen@ll-xn.ARPA (Jim Olsen) Subject: Tolkein - Language question Date: 1 May 86 05:20:16 GMT The recent discussion of Wizards in Lord of the Rings reminds me of a passage in LOTR that I've wondered about for some time. In the orc-tower of Cirith Ungol, Snaga tells Shagrat "...There's a great fighter about, one of those bloody-handed Elves, or one of the filthy _tarks_." I've speculated that "tark" is a corruption of "istari", and Snaga is therefore suggesting that the 'great fighter' may be a Wizard. Does anyone know if this interpretation is correct? Jim Olsen ARPA:olsen@ll-xn UUCP:{decvax,lll-crg,seismo}!ll-xn!olsen ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccrrick@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Heli) Subject: Re: Of the races of Middle Earth and the sources of myth Subject: [LONG] Date: 1 May 86 06:17:29 GMT > From: Chris McMenomy > In LotR, Gandalf is explicitly identified as an Istari, one of > five Wizards who appeared in Middle Earth after the Fall of > Numenor, sent from beyond the sundering seas to aid Middle Earth > in its struggle against Sauron. Saruman is "the head of the > order" which together with Elrond and Galadriel formed the White > Council to fight the Necromancer. The only other named Istari is > Radagast the brown, an expert on plants and animals. Not true, the "blue" Istari bear the names Alatar and Pallando. Time to dust off your copy of _Unfinished Tales_... By the way, of them Tolkien wrote "I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Numenorean range: missionaries to 'enemy-occupied' lands as it were. What success they had, I do not know; but I fear they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron." [The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, p. 280.] -- rick heli UUCP: ... {ucbvax,lll-lcc}!ucdavis!ccrrick INTERNET: ucdavis!ccrrick@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU ------------------------------ From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: story search Date: 30 Apr 86 18:59:58 GMT "The Hour of Not Quite Rain" appeared in SCIENCE FICTION MONTHLY, July, 1974. Re-printed in Janet Sacks's BEST OF SCIENCE FICTION MONTHLY. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl (or ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl) ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccrrick@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Heli) Subject: Re: Save The Twilight Zone! Date: 1 May 86 06:02:27 GMT > I have learned from two reliable sources (a CBS affiliate's > program director and a SF writer with friends in the industry) > that CBS is still debating the future of The Twilight Zone. One starts to wonder whether the networks start these rumors in order to generate a flurry of excitement that will impress advertisers... rick heli UUCP: ... {ucbvax,lll-lcc}!ucdavis!ccrrick INTERNET: ucdavis!ccrrick@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 86 11:52:13 PDT From: woody@Juliet.Caltech.Edu (William E. Woody) Subject: re: Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters From page 21ff, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy also mentions alcohol. It says that the best drink in existence is the Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster. It says that the effect of drinking a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster is like having your brains smashed out by a slice of lemon wrapped round a large gold brick. The Guide also tells you on which planets the best Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters are mixed, how much you can expect to pay for one and which voluntary organizations exist to help you rehabilitate afterward. The Guide even tells you how you can mix one yourself. Take the juice from one bottle of the Ol' Janx Spirit, it says. Pour into it one measure of water from the seas of Santraginus V--Oh, that Santraginean seawater, it says. Oh, those Santraginean fish! Allow three cubes of Arturan Mega-gin to melt into the mixture (it must be properly iced or the benzine is lost) Allow four liters of Fallian marsh gas to bubble through it, in memory of all those happy hikers who have died of pleasure in the Marshes of Fallia. Over the back of a silver spoon float a measure of Qualactin Hypermint extract, redolent of all the heady odors of the dark Qualactin Zones, subtle, sweet and mystic. Drop in the tooth of an Algolian Suntiger. Watch it dissolve, spreading the fires of the Algolian Suns deep into the heart of the drink. Sprinkle Zamphuor. Add an olive. Drink...but...very carefully..." So, where do you get Ol' Janx Spirit, seawater from Santraginean, Arturan Mega-gin (no substitutes--simple gin with benzine bubbled through just won't cut it), Fallian marsh (with its subtle mind-altering effects), Qualactin Hypermint extract (mint? I thought this was a slice of Lemon over a gold brick!) the tooth of an Algolian Suntiger, and Zamphuor? (I can get all the olives I want from the olive walk in front of Lloyd here at Caltech.) Anyone out there got an electronic thumb? Maybe we can hitch a ride to a reasonable liquor store... William Woody NET Woody%Romeo@Hamlet.Caltech.Edu USNAIL 1-54 Lloyd, Caltech / Pasadena, CA 91126 ------------------------------ From: hope!allanon@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Leung) Subject: Pan Galatic Gargle Blaster Date: 30 Apr 86 18:01:25 GMT According to what I know, the Gargle Blaster is a sicko yellowish green, info provided by hope!spock. My version of Pan Galatic Gargle Blaster (try at your own risk) : G*rd*n's g*n \ B*card*'s L*ght \ No Brand name intended, but I use only Sm*rn*ff's Vodka \ high quality stuff. Tr*ple Sec / M*untain Dew / Lime Juice or food dye / Mix to your desired strength and color. /*NOT RECOMMENDED BEFORE DRIVING OR STEALING BLACK SPACESHIPS WHICH MAY BE RUNNING INTO THE SUN IN THE NEAR FUTURE */ Kenneth Leung ps I have also mixed Romulan ale once for sushi party with a group of trek fans. The effect wan't too bad :-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 86 13:08 EDT From: Gubbins@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #91 Subject: Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster A while back in SF-Lovers there was two postings on how to mix a PGGB. I convinced a cute bartender to mix the second of the two. My group of four went through 3 pictures (at $16 per picture + tip). They were out of this world, fantastic, and pure see-thru GREEN. The next morning there was a large lemon wrapped around a large gold brick somewhere in the vicinity of my brain. Worth it though, but drink carefully, they are MUCH more powerful than you think, especially for a regular beer drinker. Why walk when you can stagger? Cheers, Gern ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 May 86 0804-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #102 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 5 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 102 Today's Topics: Books - Hambly & Moorcock (2 msgs) & Tolkien (3 msgs) & Wilson & Story Request & Codex Seraphinianus & Funny SF, Miscellaneous - Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters (2 msgs) & Star Wars vs King Arthur ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 2 May 86 07:57 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: ISHMAEL, by Barbara Hambly To Garrett Fitzgerald: Yes, you probably did. Including references to Doctor Who, Battlestar Galactica, Have Gun, Will Travel, and probably some others. I have more details, but I don't want to fill up the digest with them. Send me your net address (why wasn't it in your message?) if you're interested Lisa ------------------------------ From: mruxe!ajb@caip.rutgers.edu (A J Burstein) Subject: Re: Re: Eternal Champion Date: 30 Apr 86 21:36:29 GMT >> Has Moorcock written anything that did not in some way connect >> with everything else he's written? Actually, Moorcock has written some good books that don't involve the Eternal Champion (unless you REALLY stretch it). One is called Behold the Man, and I think that it won a Nebula. It's about time travel and Jesus Christ. Another one, a personal favorite, is The War Hound and the World's Pain. This one takes place in the Thirty Years War. I suppose that the Eternal Champion is now officially linked to The Dancers at the End of Time by the short story "Elric at the End of Time" (I'm not kidding). It's recently published in a paperback collection of short stories under the same name. Andy Burstein ihnp4!mruxe!ajb ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 86 08:43:37 PDT (Friday) From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Eternal Champion The Jerry Cornelius Stories are a part of the Eternal Champion Saga (in one place in the novels, the correspondences are rather graphically laid out), and with publication of "Elric at the End of Time" the End of Time tales are also tied in. Kurt Piersol ------------------------------ From: ubc-cs!andrews@caip.rutgers.edu (Jamie Andrews) Subject: Re: Gandalf (and Star Wars) Date: 30 Apr 86 17:43:59 GMT >cvl!bhaskar writes: >>P.S. Does anybody see strong parallels with the Star Wars novels >>? Gandalf - Kenobi, Saruman - Darth Vader, Sauron - Palpatine, >>Frodo - Luke etc. are a host of what I see as parallels. C'mon folks... you could find similar parallels between just about any two works of fantasy with the "quest" theme. I get upset when there are obvious ripoffs of story elements from individual authors, but here the parallel is no greater than usual. For an analysis of such stories and why they appeal to us, see _The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious_ by C.G.Jung. (At better bookstores everywhere!) >Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh) >*I don't like fantasy. I feel that anybody can write fiction if he >gets to make up his own rules. I think this is a bit unfair. The goodness of the fiction has nothing to do with the arbitrariness of the rules, but I don't think it's in inverse proportion. What matters is that the rules appeal to us on some level. For you, the rules only have any appeal if there's some attempt at scientific justification. For others, that's not necessary. For instance, there are many stories in which characters have the ability to make themselves invisible. But as net.games.frp'ers know, it's almost impossible to cook up some even half-plausible scientific explanation for invisibility. The idea simply appeals to us, so (some of us) can build up a secondary belief in it. Jamie. ...!ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!ubc-cs!andrews ------------------------------ From: sdcsvax!rose@caip.rutgers.edu (Dan Rose) Subject: Re: Gandalf Date: 30 Apr 86 06:41:07 GMT I don't think there's a strict parallel, but I think they are both basically versions of the basic quest fantasy dating back centuries. When _Star_Wars_ came out, people wondered why it was so popular after years of Science Fiction being considered box office poison. Many felt that it was just a matter of having the technical capability to bring off an otherwise comic-book story. My feeling, though, is that _Star_Wars_ is not science fiction at all, but pure fantasy. Here's why (my own opinions): In science fiction, authors take a real-life situation or problem and give it a "what if" twist. Examples of science fiction (by this definition) are 1984 -- what if the trend toward government surveillance and manipulation of the media were carried to its logical extreme? The Dispossessed -- what if a society based on anarchy were actually created? I, Robot -- what if robots become an essential part of our society? Planet of the Apes -- what if humans were not the dominant species on a planet? etc. In fantasy, authors present a simple quest, usually a quest by some good creatures who are being prevented by some bad creatures. Examples of this are The Lord of the Rings -- Quest to destroy the ring by hobbits, elves, etc., hindered by orcs, nazgul, etc. Star Wars -- Quest to destroy the Death Star by Jedi, hindered by empire. numerous fairy tales -- Quest to destroy a dragon, ogre, etc. Fantasy worlds don't have to be anything like our world, though they often have allegorical parallels. That's why I think _Star_Wars_ was so popular, and also why I agree that it is in many ways similar to the Tolkien trilogy. Dan Rose rose@UCSD ------------------------------ From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: nitpicking Re: Gandalf & Galadriel Date: 1 May 86 17:15:39 GMT >From: Bill Dowling >>Is Wizard a separate class ? > >To my recollection, Gandalf is never directly identified as being a >human, elf, hobbit or whatever. There is a strong indication >however that Gandalf was an elf since he possessed one of the three >elven rings of power. This is not correct; as other posters have demonstrated, the Wizards ('Istari') are indeed another "class", being Maiar who have come into Middle-earth. That's not really the point of this posting, though ... >This fact is made clear in the final chapter of The Return of the >King. His appearance should not be considered any indication of >his true race because it was well within his ability, partly due to >his ring, to assume almost any appearance. This is true, cf. THE TWO TOWERS, Book Three, Chapter X: The Voice of Saruman: `I will come,' said Gimli. `I wish to see him and learn if he really looks like you.' `And how will you learn that, Master Dwarf?' said Gandalf. `Saruman could look like me in your eyes, if it suited his purpose with you. And are you yet wise enough to detect all his counterfeits? . . .' But ... > He never really takes on drastically different forms but after >his incident in Moria with the balrog he takes on his bright white >form. He also on occasion takes on an enlarged form in order to >intimidate a particular character. > There is also a passage in The Fellowship of the Ring in which . >. . Galadriel's true form, that of an ancient elven woman, is >revealed to Frodo. Galadriel was also in possession of one of the >three elven rings of power (Elrond possessed the third), and it was >this ring that allowed her to maintain her youthful appearance. I >assume Gandalf used his ring in a similar manner except he chose an >appearance more suited to his style and needs. I assume you are talking about this, from THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING, Book Two, Chapter VII: She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illuminated her along and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful. Then she let her hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad. I don't see how you figure that Galadriel "really" looks aged; Elves don't age, remember? And I know it's nit-picking, but I also think you are reading the text a little too literally when you talk about Gandalf changing his form to impress people and so on. As in the quote above, every time Tolkien says something like this he is always describing the _impression_ someone makes, usually on one of the hobbits. In other words, he is just trying to convey a feeling to us. I don't think he's really trying to imply that Gandalf actually putting on seven inches and forty pounds (-: insta-Charles Atlas! :-) . Sorry to nit-pick, but I'm a stickler for accuracy. pH ------------------------------ From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: F. Paul Wilson Date: 30 Apr 86 21:40:44 GMT >>He often tries to make the point of the best government is that >>which governs least. > > I would replace "often tries to make the point. . ." with "seldom >resists the temptation to ham-handedly moralize", otherwise, I >would agree with the above. None of this would surprise anyone who knew that F. Paul Wilson won the Libertarian Award for Best Novel (or some such) for WHEELS WITHIN WHEELS. (The prize was paid, not surprisingly, in gold.) Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl (or ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl) ------------------------------ Date: 0 0 00:00:00 CDT From: Subject: Request for info about W. Macfarlane stories In the early 70's I read a series of stories in various SF magazines by W. Macfarlane. The stories featured Col. Arleigh Ravenshaw, a special investigator of some type, and his secretary, Nell Rowley. The stories generally featured parallel-world travel. I have a few questions for the experts out there: 1. Does anyone have a complete list of the stories? Were they ever collected? Did Macfarlane write anything besides this series? 2. Was the complete text of the poem starting "The worlds exist in the mind alone..." ever printed? 3. Could someone provide more information about the author? I don't think I've ever heard anything else about him/her. These stories have stuck in my mind for fifteen years. I will be EXTREMELY grateful to anyone who answers any of the questions. marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa) ------------------------------ Subject: Codex Seraphinianus Date: Fri, 02 May 86 03:15:08 -0800 From: J. Peter Alfke nj writes: >... I came across a reference to a book called >_Codex_Seraphinianus_, which he describes as an "encyclopedia" by >an Italian architect about some strange other world/universe with >full-color illustrations... written in a language completely >unknown on Earth. It must be a linguist's delight. Has anyone >here read it? I received this book as a birthday present from my girlfriend a year ago, and it's absolutely wonderful. A coffee-table "Wonderful World of Science and Nature" encyclopedia from a parallel dimension strangely related to ours. The form is clearly encyclopedic; the chapters are clearly devoted to Botany, Biology, Anthropology, Chemistry, Technology, Architecture ... etc. The world has plants that grow up into chairs and get harvested, fish with built-in diving helmets, inflatable punctuation marks, cities suspended from two facing cliffsides, social strata indicated by odd combinations of headgear and shoes ... like something out of a dream brought to life in vivid colored-pencil drawings. All the writing is in a strange curlicued undecipherable language (well, I was able to decipher the numbers (from the page-numbers) but nothing more). My friends and I eventually decided that the language, while possessing a definite albeit very large alphabet (see the linguistics section), was bogus. This may, however, just be sour grapes, and I encourage further exploration! One can spend hours going through this book, just marveling at the strange things in it, puzzling out what purpose they serve, or just enjoying the fantastic (literally!) artwork ... a must for lovers of the bizarre or absurd. Serafini, Luigi Codex Serafinianus New York, Abbeville Press, 1981 ISBN 0-89659-428-9 It is a large hardback book whose cover shows a series of pictures depicting a couple making love turning into an alligator. Really. You will probably need to special-order it from an accomodating bookstore. My girlfriend stumbled across a new copy in a used bookstore, but you will probably be less lucky. Happy hunting and, I hope, reading! Peter Alfke alfke@csvax.caltech.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 86 9:59:51 EDT From: "Daniel P. Dern" Subject: And! More! Funny! SF! Wandering marginally adrift from the genre, let's not forget, or re-discover, Thorne Smith. The most well known of his books is, of course, TOPPER, the movie/TV series of middle aged man who makes the acquaintance of a trio of lush-life ghosts (George and Marian Kerby, and their [name that] dog (also a lush). Other Smith opi include THE BISHOPS JAEGERS -- mm, I fergits the rest. They're highly amusing. I read somewhere that Thorne Smith wrote for money, and whenever he needed a refill on his bankaccount, he would check into an ocean cruise with typewriter and paper, stay continuously drunk -- and emerge with a new book, albeit few memories of how he wrote it. Sort of like Kuttner/Padgett's Gallagher, I guess. And here's another vote each for Fritz Leiber, Fred Brown, William Tenn, et. al. Not to mention some of of older Fred Pohl, Horace Gold, Mack Reynolds, Carol Emshwiller, assorted Sturgeon ... those were happier days. Lastly (for the nonce), THE STAR BEAST, by Robert Heinlein. daniel dern ddern@bbnccb.arpa ------------------------------ From: wucec2!kl2427@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster Date: 1 May 86 23:31:19 GMT At UNICON about three years ago I stumbled into a party serving PGGB's made from the following: champagne (flat) Blue Liqueur vodka probably something else that I don't remember :-) I was hoping someone responsible for them would give the right recipe, but I suppose they haven't gotten out of therapy yet! Good luck - this was very good (also VERY strong). If you get it right (it should be a clear, light blue), let me know the proportions. Remember - don't drink and drive. Keni (a.k.a Kenneth Lorber) ------------------------------ Date: Fri 2 May 86 10:15:22-EDT From: Rob Freundlich Subject: PAn Galactic Gargle Blaster If I recall correctly, HHGTTG gives instructions on how to make this incredible drink. However, I don't think most of the ingredients are in existence on this planet. You'll have to flag down a passing spaceship if you want these ingredients (check the Weekly World News. They usually report sightings of teasers). Rob Freundlich s.r-freundlich&kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: Fri 2 May 86 10:24:01-EDT From: Rob Freundlich Subject: Star Wars >Uthur & Darth Vadar Uther & Darth Vadar?!?!? Where do you get that from? Yes, Uther was Arthur's father, and Vadar was Luke's father, but the similarities end there. Uther died long before Arthur came into power (when Arthur was born, in most versions of the legend); Vadar lives to bother Luke. Vadar is evil; Uther was basically good. Vadar tries to kill Luke; Uther saves him by giving him to Sir Ector. Otherwise, the Star Wars/King Arthur analogy seems to hold up. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 May 86 0828-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #103 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 5 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 103 Today's Topics: Books - Ellison & Hambly & Heinlein & Schmitz & Thorne Smith & Tolkien (3 msgs) & Fantasy vs Hard SF & Codex Seraphinianus, Television - Doctor Who, Miscellaneous - Copyrights & Gargle Blasters ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 2 May 86 23:15:03 EDT From: Jim Aspnes To: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: Character Copyright From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) >[ ... discussion of other characters deleted ... ] Similarly, >Ellison claimed to be creator of the concept of a time- travelling >robot designed to change history by selective assassination and won >a sum of money plus on-screen credit on all videocassette copies of >THE TERMINATOR in an out-of-court settlement. (Ellison's original >use of the character was in a brilliant episode of THE OUTER LIMITS >entitled DEMON WITH A GLASS HAND, starring Robert Culp), I find it difficult to believe that anyone who had seen DEMON WITH A GLASS HAND would accept this comparison between Trent (Robert Culp's amnesiac android character) and the Terminator. Both are robots sent back in time, disguised as human beings; but Trent's purpose was was hardly to "change history by selective assassination." I hope that DEMON WITH A GLASS HAND was not the only grounds for Ellison's suit -- if such were indeed the case, he was damned lucky that the studio settled rather than going through the hassle of defending themselves in court. Jim Aspnes (asp@athena.mit.edu) ------------------------------ From: Chris McMenomy Subject: Re: ISHMAEL, by Barbara Hambly Date: Fri, 02 May 86 14:41:08 PDT Well, there are other indirect references to TV shows/movies (mostly westerns and SF): 1. When Kirk and McCoy are in the spaceport debating Spock's mission, Kirk's attention is attracted by a barroom brawl between a scruffy looking spice pirate and two fighter pilots in brown jackets from some down-at-the-heels migrant fleet. The image of Han Solo tangling with Apollo and Starbuck is priceless: I just wish I knew who had won. 2. When Spock/Ishmael is in San Francisco with the Bolt brothers, he engages in a chess game with a man dressed all in black, wearing a knight pin: that's Paladin from "Have Gun, Will Travel"; their game is watched by a white-haired gentleman rancher from Virginia City and his handsome young son (Ben Cartwright and Little Joe from Bonanza). I think there are also passing references to Sugarfoot and Bat Masterson in the San Francisco section, but I am working from memory since I don't have the book with me. Hambly, by the way, names no names in these encounters. ------------------------------ From: udenva!fcarmody@caip.rutgers.edu (Prince Caspian) Subject: RAH Future History: The po' boy's collection Date: 28 Apr 86 22:17:35 GMT It's *easy*, assuming all you want are the stories, in series order. Two books. _The Past Through Tomorrow_ (single volume anthology with timeline.) _Time Enough for Love_ (further adventures of Lazarus Long) The anthology is a re-edit job. As far as I know, little changes. If you want *the books in which the stories first appear*, that is a different breed of Solipsistic Wallwalking Feline, and I will leave it to others. Francis X. Carmody Electronic Adress (UUcp only:{hplabs,seismo}!hao!udenva!fcarmody} OR: {boulder,cires,denelcor,cisden}!udenva!fcarmody ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 86 10:51:12 PDT (Friday) Subject: Re: Re: Funny Stories From: Cate3.EIS@Xerox.COM To: lance@LOGICON.Arpa from: lance@LOGICON.ARPA >Schmitz, James Telzey Amberdon: (if their are any more let me know) > 1) The Universe Against Her - SF just entertaining > 2) Telzey and other Stories - but worthy of > mention > 3) The Lion Game All of the above were originally published in Analog. "The Universe Against Her" is the expanded version of a novel published around 1962, plus or minus a year. There are several more short stories published with Telzey Amberdon which were in Analog from 1967 to 1974. Henry III ------------------------------ From: jablow@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Eric Robert Jablow) Subject: Re: And! More! Funny! SF! Date: 3 May 86 03:28:11 GMT >From: "Daniel P. Dern" >Wandering marginally adrift from the genre, let's not forget, or >re-discover, Thorne Smith. The most well known of his books is, of >course, TOPPER... TOPPER the book is much different from TOPPER the movie. And in the second TOPPER book, Cosmo Topper consummates his affair with Marian Kirby's ghost. Thorne Smith's best book is *THE NIGHT LIFE OF THE GODS*. Respectfully, Eric Robert Jablow MSRI ucbvax!brahms!jablow ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Tolkien, Moria West-gate inscription, Legolas Date: 30 Apr 86 12:40:31 GMT I think the thing that killed *me* about the Gate inscription was that the first time I read it, Gandalf read off "pedo mummble a mumble mumble" and said "It says 'speak friend and enter.'" Then no-one could figure out what they were supposed to say. I (being the literal sort that I am) thought "Well, okay, so just say 'friend' -- what could it hurt?" But it took Gandalf et al. pages and pages to come up with the idea -- and I'm no wizard. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ From: platt@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (John Platt) Subject: Re: Tolkien, inscription, Legolas (really Elvish-language Subject: trivia) Date: 2 May 86 03:13:38 GMT ins_avrd@jhunix.UUCP (Victoria Rosly D'ull) writes: >If anyone is interested in suchlike lore, I'd also recommend a book >by Ruth Noel (I think), called _The_Languages_of_Middle-Earth_. It >covers several Elvish tongues in various detail, and Tolkien's >other languages as well, and then there's the section with the >translations of all the quotes.... Yes, indeed, "Languages of Middle Earth" was written by Ruth Noel. A good book... especially for resolving disputes about Elvish trivia. Another good book is "Mythology of Middle Earth," also by Ruth Noel, which traces down the mythological roots of Tolkien's work. Hm... Perhaps we should read these, then REALLY start to flame at each other. john platt scgvaxd!cit-vax!platt platt@cit-20.caltech.edu ------------------------------ From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Dwarves Date: 1 May 86 23:25:02 GMT gds@sri-spam.UUCP writes: >Tolkien not to have any female wizards (certainly there are >sterling examples of women and their deeds -- Luthien, Melian, >Galadriel, Eowyn, Arwen, and so forth). The lack of female dwarves >is noted though. Either in the SILMARILLION or in the Appendices to LOTR, it is noted that non-dwarves have major problems telling male dwarves apart from female; also, there are much fewer females than males. Brandon decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 CIS 74106,1032 MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time) ------------------------------ From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Fantasy vs "Hard" SF Date: 2 May 86 08:33:40 GMT kwh@bentley.UUCP (KW Heuer) writes: >*I don't like fantasy. I feel that anybody can write fiction if he >gets to make up his own rules. I like hard SF, with premises that >are plausible if not probable, and thought-provoking. I did read >_The Hobbit_, and wasn't too impressed. Please don't flame me for >my opinions; they're mine, and I don't want to hear that Tolkien is >the greatest thing since sliced bread. Btw, I'm not claiming that >Star Wars is all that hot either. I hope you will not consider it a flame to point out that SF, even so-called "hard" SF, is a species of fantasy literature. I seldom find the premises of SF to be plausible; usually, the science breaks down in one rather obvious way or another. That is not to say that I don't enjoy this kind of play with scientific ideas, because I do; I just don't think that it should be confused with real science, because it is almost always bad science, even when real scientists do the writing. This is the nature of the genre. To say "anybody can write fiction if he gets to make up his own rules" is like saying "anybody can compose music if he gets to use his own scale". The real "rules" are the rules of good writing. Any techie half-wit can write "fiction" and throw in a lot of technology. Many of you already know my pet example of this is Robert L. Forward, so I won't beat this dead horse again. But the point remains. Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: _Codex_Seraphinianus_ Date: 1 May 86 14:06:40 GMT >...In his chapter on nonsense I came across a reference to a book >called _Codex_Seraphinianus_, which he describes as an >"encyclopedia" by an Italian architect about some strange other >world/universe with full-color illustrations... written in a >language completely unknown on Earth. It must be a linguist's >delight. Has anyone here read it? No, but the New York Times Book Review reviewed it a couple of years ago. They showed a single page from it, which had an illustration of a man who had twigs and sticks tied to his body. There was text in the imaginary language surrounding the image; the script was cursive. The total effect was disturbing in a vague way. Apparently you get a feeling for the natural history and sociology of this 'parallel world' reading the book, but everything's shrouded in impenetrable mystery. I was reminded of two things seeing the illustration: Max Ernst's surrealist "Une Semaine De Bonte" and my first glimpse of the Mayan Codex. There's a sense of knowledge that is beyond your grasp because you don't have the key to it. More importantly, there IS no key since the 'language' is made-up, so you're forced to look at the text and images as objects (just as you can appreciate the Mayan Codex from an aesthetic standpoint without understanding the meaning of the hieroglyphs or the meaning of the actions portrayed in the drawings). It's reminiscent of the surrealist technique for disrupting meaning to release the action of the subconscious, but I got the impression that the intent was more to make a (semiotic) point about language. Unfortunately, the book was very expensive so I haven't yet seen it. If it comes out in paperback, I plan on getting a copy. Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 1986 13:05:36 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson Subject: Doctor Who Concerning the story "Face of Evil" from the Tom Baker era: The Face of Evil turns out to be the Doctor's own face, due to his attempt at repairing the ship's computer but forgetting to wipe his personality print from the memory banks, thus driving the computer insane when it developed a personality of it's own. But there's something strange here: the Face is that of the Fourth Doctor, yet he couldn't have visited the planet any time after his third regeneration since we've seen where he's been with Sarah Jane. And if he had visited the planet in one of his previous lives, then the Face would have been that of whatever incarnation (i.e. First, Second) had done the repair work on the computer. The point is that the Face could not have been the Fourth Doctor's since he hadn't yet been to Leela's planet in that incarnation. CNS U09862 @ UICVM ------------------------------ From: cpf@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (cpf) Subject: Re: Character Copyright Date: 30 Apr 86 18:51:49 GMT jimb@ism780 writes: >If a character is my invention and someone else uses it in a >published story, they're making money offa my creative labor and >will hear from my attorney. > >This does NOT apply, however, to characters in the public domain, >e.g., those never copyrighted or those upon whom copyright has >expired. Hence, Sherlock Holmes, D'Artangnan, etc., are fair game. Note that D'Artangnan could never have been copyrighted. Why? Because he was a historical person, about whom Dumas wrote historical fiction! If someone else had wanted to write a story about D'Artangnan (for example, how he died at a siege, fighting on the same(!) side as John Churchill (later first Duke of Marlborough)), he certainly could have, even if it appeared only one year after "The Three Musketeers". Courtenay Footman Lab. of Nuclear Studies Cornell University ARPA: cpf@lnsvax.tn.cornell.edu Usenet: {decvax,ihnp4,vax135}!cornell!lnsvax!cpf Bitnet: cpf%lnsvax.tn.cornell.edu@WISCVM.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 May 86 12:23:46 edt From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: mixable Pan-Galactic Gargleblaster The following was developed by Gary Dryfoos, a local SCAdian ("Algernon Hartesmond), balladeer ("The Ka-Khan and the Cowherd", about a certain nauseating author's persona), champion punster, and general weirdo, after taking a good bartending course. It is \\extremely// drinkable, but it tends to be subtly dangerous rather than as explosive as originally portrayed (in the BBC-TV version of HITCHHIKER, a couple are shown drinking PGG's; they get about halfway through before collapsing, whereupon the spilled drinks start eating holes in the floor). Over ice, mix the following: 1 1/2 jiggers gold or dark rum ("Janx Spirit"--use all 151 only if you're trying to be deadly) 1 jigger of 50/50 Triple-Sec/Amaretto ("Santraginus water") juice of 1/2 a substantial lemon (and some skin oil---squeeze directly into the mixing glass) ("Arcturian mega-gin"?) scoop of frozen orange juice concentrate ("suntiger tooth"?) shake vigorously and strain into two glasses with fresh ice. fill glasses with quinine water, club soda, or \very/ dry ginger ale ("Fallian marsh gas") Optional: top with a small amount of blue curacao ("hyper-mint extract") floated over the back of a spoon (really---that's the way to make it sit on top rather than sliding to the bottom or mixing in completely; instead it will stream, looking like a Jupiter Sunrise, or turn the drink a pale Cthuloid green in warning). Garnish with a slice of lemon (in description but not recipe, or maybe this is zamphuor) "Forget the damned olive!" (or garnish with an electric grape*) (you could probably also use grated & rechopped coconut, just a dash, for zamphuor) In theory, this isn't all that strong (in practice, a lot depends on the 151 and your definition of a jigger)---but the party at which they were premiered was \very/ merry and ran until 5am (and I think at least one person there still hasn't forgiven me . . .). Please credit Gary Dryfoos if you use or copy this recipe. CHip (Chip Hitchcock) ARPA: CJH@CCA-UNIX uu: ...{!harvard,!cbosgd,!zeppo}!cca!cjh * electric grapes: wash white seedless grapes (or red if you really hate white), enough to fill a wide-mouth jar. Pour over this enough brandy (or slivovitz!) (>9:1 with powdered sugar) to cover, seal, and stow in a dark place for several months. Also good as an hors-d'oeuvre by themselves---if you can't get one out of the jar you've had enough. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 May 86 0846-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #104 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 5 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 104 Today's Topics: Books - Bayley & Bushyager & MacAvoy & Moorcock (2 msgs) & Tilley & Tolkien (2 msgs) & Varley & Fantasy vs Hard SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: msudoc!beach@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: One shot authors Date: 29 Apr 86 05:50:56 GMT From: Antonio Leal >Besides the mentioned _The Zen Gun_ (of which I had never heard), >Barrington Bailey has a published collection of short stories, >called _Knights of the Limits_. > >I did buy and read that, though it is probably out of print by now. >I concur that the stories aren't particularly well done, but the >premises are fascinating (e.g., a solid universe where you tunnel >through to travel ?!). Bayley has also written a book called Star Winds. It is about a far future were Earth is a forgotten backwater in a universe where Hermetic Alchemy has become the Technology. It was put out by DAW. Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Development ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 86 12:59 PDT From: lance@LOGICON.ARPA Subject: Missing Author I was wondering if anybody on the net would know what happened to Linda E. Bushyager. She had 2 fantasy books published by Dell just before Dell gave up on the SF-F line of books. They were: The Spellstones of Shaltus (sp?) Master of Hawks Both books (to compare them to something) remind me of MZ Bradley's Darkover series, although Bushyager's books are much better as far as I am concerned. I would really like to read anything else she has written either after, before or in between the two listed books. My guess is she quit writing after all the hassles she got dealing with Dell. Hopefully she has published some more, maybe under a different name. Lance Net: lance@LOGICON.ARPA ------------------------------ From: li@uw-vlsi.ARPA (Phyllis Li) Subject: R.A. MacAvoy Date: 1 May 86 20:26:45 GMT I received somewhere around eight replys to my original query. The other books are the following: Damiano Damiano's Lute these three are a trilogy Raphael The Book of Kells As well as Tea with the Black Dragon. None of the other books are like Tea with the Black Dragon. The Damiano trilogy is set in northern Italy during the fourteenth century and the lead character is a magician. The concensus is that the first book is ** and the other two are good but not really the caliber of the first. All said that the characters are well developed and well written. The Book of Kells is yet again different, a historical romance that not many people wrote all that much about. It seemed to receive indifferent reviews. If you disagree, send stuff to ME, not all the net. Thanks! Liralen USENET: ihnp4!akgua!sb6!fluke!uw-vlsi!li ARPA: li@uw-vlsi.arpa ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_acss@caip.rutgers.edu (C Sue Shambaugh) Subject: Re: Moorcock and assoc'd. rock bands Date: 2 May 86 18:20:46 GMT >>I read a (truly bad) Moorcock book called _Time of the Hawklords_ >>about ten years ago; it was loosely based on the rock group >>Hawkwind, and I don't think it connected overtly with anything >>else he's written. I think it's now out of print. Small loss. > >Unfortunately not true. Moorcock's band in the book, The Deep Fix, >has shown up in several of the other books. I believe they even >existed in the (Moorcock, I know, would hate me for using this word >but I have to) real world. Has anyone ever seen/heard it? Actually, the book was about the band Hawkwind, which has released many albums (some live from their concerts), and most of which you can still find in this country. Their genre is SF rock (believe it or not) based on lots of synthesizer effects. The music has its merits, though not to everybody's taste, obviously. If you're interested, try the imports rack in any good music store, or even the cutouts section. I don't know if the group still exists. The most recent album of theirs that I've seen was dated ~1981 (it's been a while). Their most notable contribution to rock music seems to have been their heavy use of drugs and light shows :-) (Rumor: due to the drugs thing they may have had to go underground for a while.) Sue Shambaugh ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: Re: Eternal Champion Date: 2 May 86 15:56:45 GMT Moorcock explicitly linked in "Behold the Man" in his 1970's rewrite of "The Eternal Champion". In various dreams, Erekose remembers being Karl Glogauer (protagonist of Behold the Man). The End of Time stories are very much linked to the Eternal Champion cycle. For example, the hero is Jherek Carnelian, a name that is very close to Jerry Cornelius, Jhary a Conel, Jehemiah Cohnalius, and other figures from obvious Eternal Champion books. Carnelian's natural father is Lord Jagged Canaria, another name close to Jerry Cornelius. As another example, a good deal of the important End of Time Action takes place in a city called Shamalorm, which is clearly the eternal city of Tanelorn that keeps popping up in all the other Eternal Champion stuff. I might also point to the many satiric references in the End of Time books to other Eternal Champion material. For example, in one of the books in the Dancer trilogy, Carnelian comes upon a robot nanny whose brain has been damaged with age. The "nonsense" she spews out is actually the overly verbose introduction to the Swords Trilogy (the first Corum books). In recent years, Moorcock has been more indirect in his ties to the Eternal Champion books, but they're still there. In Gloriana, for example, there is almost no reference at all to other books...except that Queen Gloriana's chief confidante is Una Persson, who appeared in the Cornelius books, in the Dancers at the End of Time, in the Bastable books, and in a few books of her own. Similarly, in his latest trilogy (beginning with "Byzantium Endures"), one of the major figures is Catharine Cornelius, the British adventuress who is also Jerry Cornelius''s aunt. Moorcock has a lot of fun (I think) putting in these references and snarling his universe together into interwoven patterns. It is particularly difficult to figure out what things came first in his work, since he has rewritten a number of his earlier books to include references to his later stuff. In addition, his very earliest work is hard to come by: The Golden Barge (written at the age of 17 and already including many of the themes of the Eternal Champion) and the Kingdom of Spiders trilogy (a set of books that haven't been mentioned yet on the net, and which are definitely linked to the Eternal Champion cycle). Speaking of the Kingdom of Spiders books, anyone who finds them will probably notice that they are heavily derived from Edgar Rice Burroughs books about John Carter of Mars. It's interesting to note that John Carter himself is an aspect of the Eternal Champion and could have been Moorcock's inspiration for the concept. In the first book of the series (close to the beginning of the book), Carter clearly states that he can't remember being born, that he has vague memories of fighting in archaic battles, and that he seems to be drawn to scenes of combat in many times and places. I suspect that Moorcock latched onto this odd little paragraph (it's no more than that) when he began the Spiders books and went on from there. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: CLOUD WARRIOR by Patrick Tilley (mild spoiler) Date: 29 Apr 86 17:31:03 GMT The jacket reads: "The Talisman Prophecy promised victory -- but for which side? For the Federation -- Steve Brickman. Reared deep underground in a Federation fortress, he was the hottest pilot ever to graduate from the Academy. His assignment: wing man to the surface-train LADY FROM LOUISIANA, vulnerable keystone of the army sent to reconquer the Blue Sky World. For the Mutes -- Cadillac M'Call. Tall and smooth-skinned, Cadillac looked more like a Federation man than one of his radiation-changed clan brothers. His encyclopedic knowledge set Cadillac apart from the Mutes as well...as did his belief in a prophecy that forecast a far different Blue Sky World. The Talisman Prophecy drew them together...and the prophecy would decide which would live, and whose world would prevail." The front cover shows men in flight suits fighting what appears to be Plains Indians. I wouldn't have purchased the book based on the cover, but I didn't have to: a friend highly recommended it and loaned me his copy. I'm glad he did. The scenario is Earth hundreds of years in the future, long after an atomic war has divided the inhabitants of America into two opposing groups, one above ground (technologically backward, biologically scarred by radiation, with some members gifted with extrasensory powers), and the other below ground (technological, regimented, short-lived). Interestingly enough, the 'backward' group comes across as being more fully human than the others. The two main characters are on a collision course, and the story hops back and forth between the two until they meet. It's a smooth transition, and the story is exciting and enjoyable throughout. There's just enough background about the two cultures to make the reader feel that he understands them as well as Brickman, who himself is learning about the Mutes. The technology of the Federation is explained and seems reasonable, and the actions and activities of the Mutes seems natural. All of the characters are interesting, and the two cultures are cleverly developed. I give this book 3.5 stars out of 4.0 (very, very good). Warning: this is the first book of a series, though this isn't stated anywhere in the book. Duane Morse ...!noao!{mot|terak}!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 May 86 01:58 CDT From: "David S. Cargo" Subject: Tom Bombadil All this discussion of Gandalf has brought a remarkable response. Now I hope to get some definitive answers to the nature and origin of Tom Bombadil. He plays a part in LoTR, where he rescues the hobbits from Old Man Willow. He is even mentioned in one of the councils at Rivendel as a potential holder of the One Ring. (As I recall, he took it from Frodo, put it on, and DIDN'T become invisible, a very good trick.) He is mentioned in other things from JRRT, but I don' recall him ever being EXPLAINED. Can someone enlighten me? Thanks David S. Cargo (Cargo at HI-Multics) ------------------------------ Date: Sat 3 May 86 23:52:58-PDT From: Mark Crispin Subject: Why Merry was the closest When Gandalf first (mis)translated the writing on the door to Moria, Merry asked "What does 'Speak, friend, and enter' mean" (or something similar, I don't have my copy of LotR on hand). Merry was on the right track in trying to figure out that out instead of glibly assuming the way Gimli and Gandalf did that it just meant "say the password." ------------------------------ From: mruxe!ajb@caip.rutgers.edu (A J Burstein) Subject: Varley's characters Date: 2 May 86 20:51:33 GMT As far as I can remember, all of John Varley's stories have had female main characters. Does anyone know of one of his stories in which the protagonist is female? Before I get in trouble (or is it too late?) I'd like to point out that I don't think there is anything wrong with this. In fact I think it is a refreshing change. While female writers may often use male characters, they are simply following society's traditions: most books are dominated by male characters, and a few have a balance of men and women as main characters. Varley is definitely -- and deliberately? -- bucking the norm. Comments anyone? Andy Burstein ihnp4!mruxe!ajb ------------------------------ Subject: Fantasy Date: Sat, 03 May 86 14:35:09 -0800 From: J. Peter Alfke Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh) writes: >*I don't like fantasy. I feel that anybody can write fiction if he >gets to make up his own rules. I like hard SF, with premises that >are plausible if not probable, and thought-provoking. I did read >_The Hobbit_, and wasn't too impressed. Please don't flame me for >my opinions; they're mine, and I don't want to hear that Tolkien is >the greatest thing since sliced bread. Btw, I'm not claiming that >Star Wars is all that hot either. No, I am not going to claim that LOTR is fantastic and that you are an ignoramus if you don't like it. What I am disagreeing with is your dismissal of fantasy on the grounds that "anybody can write fiction if he gets to make up his own rules." Your statement is true in and of itself, however it is also meaningless, as anyone can write fiction even if they adhere to strict rules. In fact, it's easier to write fiction if you stick to hard-and-fast rules (why do you think so many hack writers write in strongly-typed genres?) In writing fantasy one does NOT make up one's own rules of fiction. Lord of the Rings is written in an exceedingly well-accepted, oft-used and traditional prose style. The events happening in the book follow logically from the premises that Tolkien has set up at the beginning. I suspect that Tolkien put more effort into defining his fantasy world than almost any SF writer has put into his/hers. You are confusing two fundamentally different concepts here: 1. Rules of prose writing (i.e. Tolkien vs. Joyce) 2. Rules of the universe in which the story takes place You accuse fantasy of dismissing rule 1, but I suspect you really mean rule 2. As regards rule 2, remember that fantasy is one of the oldest types of fiction, dating back to primitive myths and childrens' fairy-tales, and that most fantasy writers still follow the conventions set up thousands or hundreds of years ago. Knights, meddling gods, dragons, feudal societies, magicians casting spells, enchanted weapons, quests ... how many fantasy stories can you think of that don't include at least one of these items? Fantasy as a whole is far more type-cast than science fiction is, so I don't understand your complaints about rule 2. As regards rule 1, there must be much more SF than fantasy that experiments with unusual prose styles. And such a prose style, to be effective (and at all readable) must have certain rules. Even Joyce's "Ulysses" and "Finnegan's Wake" (two of the most unusual prose styles I know of) are readable, provided one puts in the effort; the style follows definite rules and there is a definite purpose behind it all. What is so different between: ** Larry Niven inventing out of whole cloth a convenient "hyperspace" with its "blind spot" and then deciding that a certain ancient alien race sells us devices that can cause a craft to enter this space and violate Einstein's theory of relativity, and: ** Tolkien inventing out of whole cloth an enchanted ring with its own consistent powers, created by an alien race and lost for many years, now in the possession of a short hairy guy being chased by minions of an evil lord who wants to use it to conquer the world? The only difference I see is that in one case one can squint ones eyes and allow as to how such a thing might come true scientifically, how one could actually build such devices, while in the other one must read the story for its own sake, making an imaginative leap. Can you really not accept any fiction that could not actually happen given more-or-less bogus scientific advances? This is just as unimaginative and narrow-minded an attitude as exhibited by those types who dismiss SF as trash because "it can't happen". Think about it. Peter Alfke alfke@csvax.caltech.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 May 86 0917-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #105 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 6 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 105 Today's Topics: Books - Cherryh & Cruz & Heinlein & Moorcock (3 msgs) & Recommendations Request & Story Request, Films - Aurora Encounter & The Quiet Earth & Killers from Space Title&&Author: Sentient becomes contact in computer simulation Movies - "Aurora Encounter" THE QUIET EARTH Baaaad movie ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 3 May 86 14:14:44 edt From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Cherryh portrait I haven't seen the pb of VISIBLE LIGHT, but it's definitely CJ herself on the cover of the (Fantasia Press?) hardback, standing in a spaceship corridor with a couple people I don't recognize (I've met the artist, who is CJ's brother David, and don't think it's him). The painting won a special ribbon for "Best Use of a Family Member" at Boskone; when we first saw it (at Chilicon, last summer) a friend said her expression reads as "What has my kid brother gotten me into now?" (I \\think// I've got the title right, but there may be two books he's put her on the cover for. The picture is good but not flattering; CJ is remarkably unworn-looking for someone who's been teaching for decades.) David Cherry (the 'h' on CJ's name is an attachment) is beginning to become a success as a commercial SF artist. He got breaks from Fantasia Press (in addition to the above, they did a special edition of her two ]elf[ books, ? and THE TREE OF SWORDS AND JEWELS, with illos by him) and is now getting assignments elsewhere, e.g. the DAW reissue of Brunner's TIMESCOOP. (I think that particular portrait is too wimpy even for the mostly-incompetent lead, but Cherry is definitely going somewhere.) CHip (Chip Hitchcock) ARPA: CJH@CCA-UNIX uu: ...!{cbosgd,seismo!harvard,zeppo}!cca!cjh ------------------------------ From: seismo!gatech!m!r.leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu Date: 5 May 1986 12:58 EDT Subject: re: Re: THE AYES OF TEXAS by Daniel da Cruz THE AYES OF TEXAS by Daniel da Cruz Del Rey, 1982 A book review by Mark R. Leeper I thought the stereotyped Texan was a myth. You know, the guy who thinks the United States is composed of Texas and some insignificant periphery lands. The guy who thinks that Texans are ten feet tall and that heads eight feet or less off the ground needlessly complicate world politics. The guy who breaks world history into the piece before the Alamo and the piece after. Well, the guy seems to really exist and he is writing science fiction. The book is The Ayes of Texas by Daniel da Cruz. (Curiously enough, it is published by Del Rey and not Baen.) In the late 1990's the deceitful Russians are about the execute the coup they have been planning for decades. By exploiting the American's fuzzy-thinking wish for peace they are going to turn us into an agricultural country ruled over by them. They have a plot so insidious and fiendish that only the President or a Texan can see through it. The President cannot oppose the takeover; that leaves the Texan. So a Texan, Gwillam Forte, a three-way amputee, takes up the task of fixing up the rusty old U.S.S. Texas so it will look all right for a Texas celebration and instead secretly turns it into the super-scientific front line of the Free World's naval defenses. da Cruz's credentials include having been an American embassy press attache' in Baghdad, a foreign correspondent, the author of a history textbook, and thinking that the Soviets are called "the Russians." His book somehow lacks an air of authenticity for us Lilliputian non-Texans. Early on, da Cruz sets us straight about the complaints of certain Mexican- Americans, but just to prove how liberal he is toward minorities, he has positive minority images like the one with the slightly transparent name Modeljewski. That makes Charles Dickens's character naming subtle by comparison. Some statement should be made about the technology in THE AYES OF TEXAS since it is a major part of the book. It probably is the best aspect and rings marginally truer than the rest of the book, but I cannot claim to be enough of a physicist to evaluate it. There is no better way to sum up the feel of this rather strange book than to give you the following extended quote (from pages 162 and 163): "It is for us, your representatives, to propose. It is for you, the people of Texas, to decide. At this moment, in geosynchronous orbit 38,000 kilometers above Texas, the lenses of TexComSat 23-LBJ are focused on us. In exactly five minutes"--he consulted his watch--"at 9:25 P.M., all power-generating equipment in the State of Texas, except for emergency facilities, will be cut. The state will be in total darkness. "Those who favor Texas remaining in a union that submits to the Russian yoke--if any such there be--will step outside into the night and show a light. A match's flare, a flashlight, even the glow of a cigarette, will be picked up and registered by TexComSat 23-LBJ and relayed to Earth for instant tabulation. I say again: anyone who wishes to remain a citizen of a craven, misguided, gutless United States will step outside, and in his loneliness shows his feeble beam." He paused. "At 9:35 P.M.," he resumed, "just fourteen minutes hence, all those in favor of a proud, independent Republic of Texas, ready to fight anybody and everybody who denies us the honor we will die to preserve, will step proudly out into the velvety blackness of the Texas night and light the lamp of freedom..." At nine-twenty-five, there were brief, isolated flashes of light from one end of Texas to the other. More often than not, they were followed by even briefer flashes as indignant Texans, their firearms at the ready for such expressions of disloyalty, zeroed in on the dissidents and let fly. As a test of loyalty toward the United States, it was a candle snuffed out in a high wind. At nine-thirty-five, firehouse sirens wailed in every city in the state, and people poured out of houses and apartment buildings. From the Rio Grande to the Oklahoma Panhandle, from the borders of Louisiana to the sands of New Mexico fifteen hundred kilometers away, the state was ablaze with the light of impending battle in twenty million defiant ayes of Texas. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@caip.rutgers.edu (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Heinlein's Future History Date: 6 May 86 00:29:52 GMT ins_apmj@jhunix.ARPA (Patrick M Juola) writes: > The complete FUTURE HISTORY, with the exception of TIME >ENOUGH FOR LOVE [and NOtb (gag me with a Libyan thermonuclear >device)] can be found in the book THE PAST THROUGH TOMORROW. Why >on Earth RAH called his Future History collection by this name is >beyond me. They are also available as individual collections, of >which the last two are REVOLT IN 2100 and M.C. (The others escape >me at the moment.) TEFL is the last of the official Future >History, but NOtb is rather like a Heinlein convention -- everyone >from all of RAH's books show up, at least in the L'Envoi. Well, just to be picky, there are one or two stories in the individual collections that aren't in 'The Past through Tomorrow' - for instance, there is a story 'Let There be Light' that is definitely in the future history timeline, but got cut somewhere. Heinlein has gone back and expanded on many of his shorter works over the years. I would also recommend a collection called 6xH or The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag. This contains the stories Gulf, and The Man who Traveled in Elephants, arguably precursors to Friday and Number of the Beast. [Expanded] Universe also contains some interesting material... If you enjoy one or two, go ahead and read everything. You probably won't agree with all you read, but it won't hurt you. Really! Please excuse any errors in fact - I read the stuff, not write it George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ From: pete@andromeda.RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Farabaugh) Subject: Eternal Champion Date: 4 May 86 16:30:43 GMT Everyone seems to have missed part of the cycle: The Sword of Heaven, The Flowers of Hell It was a marvel graphic novel written by Moorcock as the third volume to the Erikose/Urlick/John Daker series. I have read the whole cycle exept for these three because I haven't been able to find the first one (The Eternal Champion). If anyone can tell me where I can get a copy they can have what's behind door number 2. One of our fine publishing companies (I can't remember which one) made a brilliant move by rereleasing the second volume but not the first. Peter Farabaugh ..topaz!andromeda!pete ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 86 09:37:08 EDT (Monday) From: Heiny.henr@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Eternal Champion To: ucdavis!cccallan@caip.rutgers.edu Characters from the Eternal Champion series do appear in 'The Warhound and the World's Pain', mostly being gods, such as Xiombarg. The Bastable series does tie into others, with Bastable & Una Persson appearing or being mentioned in the Erekose series, the Cornelius series, and the Dancers at the End of Time, as well as in the Corum series. I always considered the Elric stories in 'Elric at the End of Time' to be more whimsical Elric stories than proper parts of the cycle. In one of his notes, Moorcock says he wrote the End of Time one simply to try out a suggestion someone once made. Chris ------------------------------ From: h-sc2!samson@caip.rutgers.edu (greg samson) Subject: Re: Eternal Champion Date: 5 May 86 07:35:34 GMT gandalf@ihuxl.UUCP (Schurman) writes: >The OSWALD BASTABLE novels (in order) > >1. The Warlord of the Air >2. The Land Leviathan >3. The Steel Tsar I was once informed that these novels were written, not by the Michael Moorcock who wrote all the Eternal Champion books, but by his grandfather, or father, or some older male relative who had the same name. Is this true, or do these books actually link to the Eternal Champion series? G. T. Samson BITNET: gts@harvunxw [preferred] OR samson@harvunxu ARPA: gts@borax.LCS.MIT.EDU or samson%h-sc2@harvard.HARVARD.EDU USMail: Lowell N-44, Harvard U., Cambridge, MA 02138 ------------------------------ From: larrabee@decwrl.DEC.COM (Tracy Larrabee) Subject: Would you recommend a book for me to read? Date: 5 May 86 10:48:31 GMT I want to do something terribly selfish: I want to describe my particular taste in books and then hope that y'all will read it and suggest something to me that fits any pattern that you see. Drop me a line if you have a suggestion, or if you want to know what folks have suggested to me. Next comes some lists of authors I like and don't like. None of these lists is complete, but they probably contain enough clues. Favorite mainline authors: Jane Austen (I've read everything twice) Chaim Potok (Haven't liked his recent stuff) Hemmingway (don't like too many war details) Steinbeck James Joyce (but not Finnigan's Wake) Marilyn French Fantasy I like: J.R.R. Tolkein (I feel silly even mentioning it) Kathryn Kurtz Deryni books Patricia McKillup Riddlemaster books David Eddings Belgariad Marion Zimmer Bradley (Mists of Avalon, only) Sci-Fi I like: John Varley Joe Haldeman Joan D Vinge (Snow Queen, I loved) Usula Le Guine Kate Wilhelm (Sweet Birds, I loved) Frank Herbert (some subset of the Dune books) Zelazny (though it's been long since I read any) Gene Wolfe (when I'm in the right mood) C.J.Cherryh (but only some--liked Gehenna, didn't Down Below Station) Fantasy and Sci-fi I hate: Heinlein (sp?) Stephen Donaldson Piers Anthony E.R. Eddison (though it's been long since I tried Oroboros) Whoever wrote that Gromengast stuff Whoever wrote that Warlock in spite of himself stuff Anything that's about machines and science only and not their affect on people Tracy Larrabee tracy@su-sushi.stanford.edu decwrl!larrabee ------------------------------ From: tolerant!waynet@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Thompson) Subject: Title&&Author: Sentient becomes contact in computer Subject: simulation Date: 5 May 86 00:39:32 GMT I recall reading a short story which involved a computer simulation of a society in which the only practicable contact between reality and computer simulation was through a sentient entity within the the simulation. Any pointers would be welcome. Wayne Thompson ..{bene,mordor,nsc,oliveb,pyramid,ucbvax}!tolerant!waynet ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 1986 11:50-PDT Subject: Movies - "Aurora Encounter" From: WILBUR@OFFICE-2.ARPA Review - Save your money. Reminiscent of the 1950s. Hollywood must be hard up for "new" plots. No action - I sat through the whole movie waiting for something to happen - nothing ever did. The best part of the movie was the three little girls. Supposedly based on a true incident in a small Texas town in the late 1800s with a Texas ranger playing the heavy. The ending was straight out of "ET". Faye (Wilbur@Office-2) ------------------------------ Subject: THE QUIET EARTH Date: Mon, 05 May 86 17:36:41 -0500 From: Frank Hollander Cc: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.EDU AT LAST a good sf film. This film has great "sense of wonder" and is refreshingly *different* from U.S. movies. I think that any complaints about "science", etc. are groundless. The "science" in this movie is at least as plausible as ftl (not to mention time travel). Although the movie does not try to be futuristic, it is completely ambiguous about its time setting. I was able to suspend my disbelief and enjoy the movie (wow!). About the protagonists: it pays to realize that they are not entirely "stable", "normal", or "rational" before the events of the movie, much less after. If forced to rate this on the -4 to +4 scale (relative to other sf movies), it would rate a +3. If you wonder where these opinions are coming from, I'll say that my favorite recent sf movies are "1984", "Blade Runner", "Scanners", and "Star Trek II" (and "The Quiet Earth"). Watch out for this for this movie. The poster is fantasic, regardless of whether or not you like the movie. Frank Hollander ARPA: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU CSNET: hollande%udel-dewey@csnet-relay UUCP: ...!harvard!hollande@dewey.udel. ------------------------------ Date: 05-May-1986 1103 From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (From the terminal of Brendan From: E. Boelke) Subject: Baaaad movie *** POSSIBLE MILD SPOILER *** I have never replied to any of the surveys taken on Best or Worst [author, book, movie, ...], and I realize that the last Worst SF Movie poll was a long time ago, but - have you ever seen "Killers from Space"? This was probably the most ridiculous movie I have ever had the pleasure to watch from a hotel room. It was so bad it was fun. It starred Peter Graves and the main plot was that the aliens were living under our Arizona nuclear testing grounds during the tests of the 50's and 60's and were capturing much of the released energy, as well as breeding giant insects and reptiles for their 'army'. The best line of the night belongs to my friend whom I watched it with. The first time we saw the 'aliens', who had large eyes due to their sun cooling (the eyes were the type you buy for Halloween - you know, the ping pong ball with a hole cut in it), after we stopped laughing, my friend suggested that they were from the 'Planet of Feldman'. If you've seen the movie, you know what I mean. Now I know why Mr. Phelps accepted all those missions. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 May 86 0936-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #106 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 6 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 106 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (10 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cylixd!elf@caip.rutgers.edu (Leonard Bottleman) Subject: Re: Of the races of Middle Earth and the sources of myth Date: 2 May 86 15:34:56 GMT >From: Chris McMenomy >of Morgoth's fortress Thangorabadrim during the destruction of >Beleriand Thangorodrim is the name of the "Mountains of Tyranny" raised by Morgoth to protect Angband ("Iron Prison"), his northwest fortress (usually left in control of Sauron) (Sil.,p47). >Of the other Races of Middle Earth [A good summary of the other races of Middle Earth, and their origins] >Morgoth echoed Aule's sin, but his creatures were all derivative: >Orcs from Elves and Men, Trolls from Dwarves, the Balrogs from >Valar; Morgoth created his orcs from Elves; it was Saruman who mixed the races of Man and Orc - remember that even the Ents were surprised upon hearing what Saruman had done (Sil.,p50;LotR II,pp76-77). The Trolls were made in mockery of the Ents (LotR II,p89). The Balrogs were Maiar that Morgoth convinced to join and serve him, but Morgoth did not create them (Sil.,p31). >Ents were probably the creation of Yavanna, Aule's consort and >mistress of trees. Yavanna does say that in the Song of the Ainur she heard the voices of the Ents (not named as such, however), but it isn't clear that it was she that first thought of them. It is clear, however, that Yavanna did not physically create the Ents (like Aule did with the Dwarves), since she went to Manwe to express her concerns that there wouldn't be anyone in Middle Earth to protect the trees (Yavanna was the creator of animal and plant life). (Sil.,pp45-46). Leonard Bottleman ihnp4!akgua!cylixd!elf ------------------------------ From: gds@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Greg Skinner) Subject: Re: Tolkein - Language question Date: 4 May 86 01:31:56 GMT olsen@ll-xn.ARPA (Jim Olsen) writes: > The recent discussion of Wizards in Lord of the Rings reminds me > of a passage in LOTR that I've wondered about for some time. In > the orc-tower of Cirith Ungol, Snaga tells Shagrat > > "...There's a great fighter about, one of those > bloody-handed Elves, or one of the filthy _tarks_." 'tark' is a Black Speech corruption of a word which in the Common Speech means "man of Gondor". The word is derived from a word which in Quenya means "high". Tar- was the prefix of all the Numenorean kings who did not openly speak out against or disobey the Valar. Check the Tolkien Companion for the exact word, I think it was "tarkil" or "tarcil". The orcs may have very well been talking about Aragorn when he visited Mordor after his service for Gondor and the Steward Ecthelion, or any of the men of Gondor who used to fight in the service of Steward Denethor. Greg Skinner (gregbo) {decvax!genrad, allegra, gatech, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds gds@eddie.mit.edu ------------------------------ From: ulowell!lkeber@caip.rutgers.edu ( LAK) Subject: Re: Gandalf Date: 3 May 86 17:52:27 GMT In Unfinished Tales (compiled by Tolkien's son Christopher) there is a chapter which deals with this. Tolkien's notes contain a lot of information on the Wizards, or Istari, who they were, why they came and what their authority was. It says that Olorin was sent by the Valar (powerful godlike beings) as one of the Wizards. The Wizards were Maiar, spirits like the Valar but less powerful, capable of taking material form. Five total were sent, including Saruman the White, Radagast the Brown, Gandalf the Grey, and two others (blue) who went into the East and somehow abandoned their mission, much like Saruman. Larry ------------------------------ From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Even more LOtR (I think I've OD'd! :-) Date: 3 May 86 14:13:15 GMT From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU >OK, here's the scoop on Gandalf. Somewhere in _Return of the King_ >when (I believe) Aragorn is talking to someone else about Gandalf, >the other says, "Yes, he said to me, 'I am Mithrandir to the Elves, >Gandalf to men, and Olorin in the West that is forgotten'" (or >something like that). The key here is Olorin. A little background >is necessary to explain this... Nope. Faramir speaking to Frodo in Ithilien, recalling what Gandalf said to him as a child: ``Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkun to the Dwarves; Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incanus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.'' >Oh, and I'd also like to hear an explanation of Gandalf's comment >how "Merry, of all of us, was the closest". A little license on Gandalf's part. ``What does it'' (really) ``mean by `Speak, friend, and enter?' '' Brandon decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 CIS 74106,1032 MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time) ------------------------------ From: watnot!jrsheridan@caip.rutgers.edu (James R. Sheridan) Subject: Re: Gandalf Date: 3 May 86 23:06:01 GMT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM >were Ainur (Tolkien's mythology equivalent of angels or saints. >Sauron was one, as well, and, I believe, the Balrogs) so had the >power to The Balrogs were Ainur corrupted by Melkor and/or(?) Sauron if my memory serves me correctly. I think this was done after Melkor made his citadel in the north. I forget the name of that...Ang(something).... James R. Sheridan Faculty of Mathematics University of Waterloo UUCP : {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,utzoo,clyde}!watmath!watnot!jrsheridan CSNET : jrsheridan%watnot@waterloo.CSNET ARPA : jrsheridan%watnot%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.ARPA ------------------------------ From: watnot!jrsheridan@caip.rutgers.edu (James R. Sheridan) Subject: Re: Gandalf & Galadriel Date: 3 May 86 23:30:07 GMT >He never really takes on drastically different forms but after his >incident in Moria with the balrog he takes on his bright white >form. He also on occasion takes on an enlarged form in order to >intimidate a particular character. > There is also a passage in The Fellowship of the Ring in >which . . . Galadriel's true form, that of an ancient elven woman, >is revealed to Frodo. Galadriel was also in possession of one of >the three elven rings of power (Elrond possessed the third), and it >was this ring that allowed her to maintain her youthful appearance. >I assume Gandalf used his ring in a similar manner except he chose >an appearance more suited to his style and needs. Two points to make here... 1. When Gandalf battled the Balrog in Moria, he did not survive unscathed. In fact, he "died" as much as a Maia can. When he came back and met Pippin and Merry, he responded to their questions about if he was Gandalf by saying that he WAS know by that name before. As far as I can tell, he came back in another form after being rejuvenated by Iluvatar, maybe. 2. Galadriel's appearance was never altered when she wore the ring. The ring gave her certain powers which she used to create a safe, beautiful land around her, but seldom more than that. The three Elven rings were hidden from Sauron and they dared not use them openly for fear he would attempt to recover them. The vision Frodo was given was just that, a vision to show him what she "could" become, not what she was. James R. Sheridan Faculty of Mathematics University of Waterloo UUCP : {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,utzoo,clyde}!watmath!watnot!jrsheridan CSNET : jrsheridan%watnot@waterloo.CSNET ARPA : jrsheridan%watnot%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.ARPA ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Lindor) Subject: There IS an inconsistency in the West-gate inscription Date: 4 May 86 03:03:22 GMT Many of you seem to like finding errors or inconsistencies in _The Lord of the Rings_. Well, I found that there is indeed an error in the drawing in the surviving copies of the Red Book; and it was faithfully transcribed and is there for all to see. It is quite obvious once it has been explained, though I confess I did not discover it myself: Caranfin pointed it out to me the other day as I was speaking to him of the recent discussion here on inconsistencies. Rather than spoil the search for you, I have decided to post this short note and let you guess. In about a week I shall post the answer. Guess away! Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1415) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: So much for writing w/o a reference... Date: 3 May 86 14:06:00 GMT From: Chris McMenomy >Of Gandalf the Istar In LotR, Gandalf is explicitly identified as >an Istari, one of five Wizards who appeared in Middle Earth after >the Fall of Numenor, sent from beyond the sundering seas to aid >Middle Earth in its struggle against Sauron. Saruman is "the head >of the order" which together with Elrond and Galadriel formed the >White Council to fight the Necromancer. The only other named >Istari is Radagast the brown, an expert on plants and animals. The other two, the Blue wizards, went off ``into the east'' and were never seen again. >The Elvish tales of the creation of the world recorded in "The >Silmarillion" explain that Iluvatar (ie, God) together with the >Valar and Mayar (two orders of angels) created the world. Some of >these divine beings That's ``Maiar'' >chose to live on it; but the chief Vala, Morgoth, turned against >Iluvatar ``Morgoth'' was the Elvish name for the Vala Melkur. >and corrupted the earth. The Vala Lorien, a healer, had a Maya >follower named Olorin. In LotR, Elrond says that one of Gandalf's >names is Olorin; notes in "The Silmarillion" identify Olorin with >Gandalf, which makes him, and presumably the other Istari, Mayar >sent by the Valar to Middle Earth. Sauron is also a Maya, one of >Morgoth's subordinates; he escaped the fall of Morgoth's fortress >Thangorabadrim during the destruction of Beleriand That's Thangorodrim (Read your references better.) >at the end of the First Age, when Morgoth was banished from Middle >Earth by a coalition of Elves, Men and Valar. The only other Maya >mentioned at length is Melian, the mother of Luthien Tinuviel, >Aragorn's ancestress. > >Of the other Races of Middle Earth Besides the races of Valar and >Mayar, which were divine beings, Iluvatar created immortal Elves >and mortal Men. Elves never leave Middle Earth; Except insofar as Tol Eressea is not accessible to non-Elves (save for special dispensation, as in the case of the Ring-Bearers). (Of course Gandalf is allowed; he is, after all, a Maia.) >if they are killed they enter the Halls of the Vala Mandos for a >time, then reappear. Men "pass beyond the circles of the world" at >death. The Dwarves were the creation of Aule, a Vala whose primary >care was the minerals and mountains; but he couldn't make them do >any more than echo his own thoughts. In creating a sentient race, >he tresspassed on Iluvatar's territory; when confronted by Iluvatar >he reluctantly agreed to give up the dwarves to destruction. >Iluvatar instead blessed them and gave them truly independent >existence. Morgoth echoed Aule's sin, but his creatures were all >derivative: Orcs from Elves and Men, Trolls from Dwarves, the >Balrogs That's Ents not Dwarves. Treebeard speaking to Merry and Pippin: ``Maybe you have heard of Trolls? They are mighty strong. But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves.'' >from Valar; dragons were a mix of various animals. Ents were >probably the creation of Yavanna, Aule's consort and mistress of >trees. Tolkien does not say who was responsible for the creation >of hobbits. I seem to remember one of the lesser Houses of Men being somewhat shorter than the others, and tending toward hairy feet. In the time of the SILMARILLION they lived in a wood. (This may be/probably is wrong; I don't have the SILMARILLION with me to check.) >Sources: LotR and the Hobbit, of course; "The Silmarillion", >"Unfinished Tales", "The Book of Lost Tales" (in two volumes); >various dictionaries for terms from Middle Earth; Tolkien's Letters >and Biography (H. Carpenter). Read 'em better next time. >Tolkien's inspiration for the way his world works is largely Judeo- >Christian, with medieval elements; a lot of the details come from >the northern European legends (the names of the dwarves, and even >Gandalf, are straight out of the Elder Edda; a lot of the hobbit's >names -- Froda, Froda? Interesting that in all of this discussion of language similarities, your typo reflects the ``real'' situation: hobbits use the -a and -e for males, -o for females, contrary to most others then and now. Tolkien ``converted'' them, again, to make them seem more familiar. (Much more of a reading of these things and I'll be convinced that he's writing about something that really happened! Tolkien doesn't believe in half-designed worlds, does he?) >Meriadoc, Isengrim -- are from Merovingian French; the Roharrim >have Anglo-Saxon roots). Lucas's Star Wars universe has a world >order like At least as far as languages go, the Appendix to LOtR says that Tolkien ``translated names and words to the modern historical equivalent''. (Not a quote.) Brandon decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 CIS 74106,1032 MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time) ------------------------------ From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon S. Allbery) Subject: OOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!! Date: 3 May 86 22:33:17 GMT This should teach me to flame someone for accuracy!!! Recently I corrected some mistakes in a posting about Gandalf and the Maiar. One of the ``corrections'' went like: Subject: So much for writing w/o a reference... From: Chris McMenomy >>chose to live on it; but the chief Vala, Morgoth, turned against >>Iluvatar > > That's Melkur That should be MelkOr Oops. I *did* mention I didn't have the SILMARILLION at the time; I have since gotten my hands on it... and discovered that a search-associative-for-evil-being-like "Melk*" retrieved from the wrong files (anyone care to guess which one?) :-) BIG OOPS! ! ! g/Melkur/s//Melkor/g :-) (Mea culpa.) Brandon decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 CIS 74106,1032 MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 May 86 23:21:35 CDT From: William LeFebvre Subject: Re: (Tolkien) Inscription on door From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI > why wouldn't Gandalf have simply spoken the inscripted words > aloud, either while reading them initially or while explaining the > situation to the others in the party, and, by so doing, said the > word "mellon" (I believe that was it?) and so triggered the door's > opening? ... Yes, it was "mellon". The answer is simple---Gandalf didn't think to, or didn't think he had to. He didn't bother uttering the words out loud, because he didn't have to think too hard to translate them. I don't even think he thought to read the inscription on the door until Merry asked him what it said. Then he said (in the Common Tongue, which of course wouldn't trigger the opening spell) something like "Oh it just says 'Speak, friend, and enter'" and went on to explain that that indicated there was some secret password that needed to be used (something he already knew). Remember, after he finally realized what the word was, he said something like "Merry had the right idea all along" indicating that he should have paid more attention to what was really inscribed on the door. William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 May 86 0743-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #107 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 7 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 107 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Elgin & Ellison & Hambly & Heinlein & Lieber & Moorcock & Powers & Robinson & Varley (2 msgs) & SF Poll & Codex Seraphinianus, Films - Star Wars & Legend & James Bond, Miscellaneous - Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Apr 1986 17:45:50 PST Subject: humor, flames, catching up.... From: Douglas M. Olson Having lost access 6 months ago, I just got back to a position where I can read SFL...catching up when the current file is too large for the local mail program or editors involved TYPING the file at 1200 baud, and no way to go backwards...3 hours later, I'm slightly bemused (no, thats vastly befuddled) but perhaps I can organize thoughts for at least a few topics. Whereas someone's guess that Xanth might have been the series Spider Robinson meant when talking about a well known author writing an awful book on a bet, yet being forced to continue by the readers and publisher's demands... WAS a good guess, it was wrong. Randy Murray got it right, it was ERB and the Tarzan books, I asked Spider when he came to Bubonicon '84 in Albuquerque. Further comments about the author of Xanth are inspired because another poster actually spoke favorably about the Tarot books. Consider the series FLAMED. I was too exasperated by Tarot to read another Piers Anthony book for years. (I still haven't done so, though you people are edging me mighty close to trying the Incarnations of Immortality.) This was not a snap judgement of Anthony; when I read the Tarot books, I'd read three of Xanth and while it worked for one or two books...then we'd been exposed to the rantings of a shorter-than-average stablehand who never outgrew his inferiority complex (about his HEIGHT, ferchrisake) for three more limited books (the Apprentice Adept books)...Tarot was merely the last straw. This was long after I'd tried and enjoyed Macroscope, Chthon, Omnivore; the Battle Circle books recently mentioned favorably were the first by Piers Anthony I ever read. I can even accept the Kirlian books though I admit I've only read three of them (what is it, five now?) I saw the Tarot books as some hack trying to prove how 'deep' he could be. Failing. I was seriously exasperated and, looking back at Tarot, Xanth, and Apprentice Adept, I gave up on Anthony. Flame off. So somebody, please make the final effort and convince me that Incarnations is worth reading, or not... Its good to be back! Doug (dolson @ ada20.arpa) ------------------------------ From: bucsb.bu.edu!boreas@caip.rutgers.edu (The Mad Tickle Monster) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf Date: 5 May 86 21:08:59 GMT kay@warwick.UUCP (Kay Dekker) writes: >As for funnies: try PROSTHO PLUS by Piers Anthony... a zany story >about a prosthodontist who becomes the property of aliens. It >*still* makes me roll about on the floor even after the zillionth >reading. There is a whole series of short stories about this character; I think one of the stories is called "Getting into University", and it's definitely in his collection _Anthonology_. I don't normally enjoy Anthony's writing, but these stories are really good. Michael Justice BITNet: boreas%bucsb%bu-cs%csnet-relay.arpa@wiscvm ARPANet: boreas%bucsb%bu-cs%csnet-relay UUCP: ...!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas CSNET: boreas%bucsb%bu-cs ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 1986 17:45:50 PST Subject: humor, flames, catching up.... From: Douglas M. Olson C Wingate mentioned The Ozark trilogy. I have the middle book of a trilogy by one of my favorite authors (Suzette Hadin Elgin) and can't find the first or third...I think it may be this Ozark trilogy. Does ANYBODY know the titles and have any lines to actual copies? If anyone can sell me the books... Doug (dolson @ ada20.arpa) ------------------------------ From: dg_rtp!meissner@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael Meissner) Subject: Re: Time is Money Date: 5 May 86 23:11:59 GMT colonel@ellie.UUCP (Col. G. L. Sicherman) writes: >An old idea. I remember having seen it in an SF novel serialized >in (F&SF?) in the 70's. It was about a planet where morality was >enforced by surgically implanting remote-control death devices in >newborns' brains. One person held the controls. Anybody remember >it? I think it was nomi- nated for some prize or other. Sounds like "Die said the Ticktock Man" by Harlan Ellison. ------------------------------ From: kyrimis@tilt.FUN (Kriton Kyrimis) Subject: Re: ISHMAEL, by Barbara Hambly Date: 5 May 86 05:28:18 GMT From: Chris McMenomy >Well, there are other indirect references to TV shows/movies >(mostly westerns and SF): > >1. When Kirk and McCoy are in the spaceport debating Spock's >mission, Kirk's attention is attracted by a barroom brawl between a >scruffy looking spice pirate and two fighter pilots in brown >jackets from some down-at-the-heels migrant fleet. The image of >Han Solo tangling with Apollo and Starbuck is priceless: I just >wish I knew who had won. Well, this one was too subtle for me to notice, but now that you pointed it out, it is sort of obvious. There seems to be more to this, however. The fight mentioned above was about a girl who, while those guys were fighting, "finished her drink and departed on the arm of a tall, curly-haired man in the eccentric garb typical of space-tramps". I wonder whether part of this eccentric garb was a 12 foot scarf!!! Kriton (princeton!tilt!kyrimis) ------------------------------ From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Heinlein's Future History Date: 5 May 86 22:42:14 GMT ins_apmj@jhunix.UUCP (Patrick M Juola) writes: > The complete FUTURE HISTORY, with the exception of TIME ENOUGH >FOR LOVE [and NOtb (gag me with a Libyan thermonuclear device)] can >be found in the book THE PAST THROUGH TOMORROW. Why on Earth RAH >called his Future History collection by this name is beyond me. >They are also available as Heinlein got stuck with it and couldn't get away. Blame goes to (I believe) John W. Campbell, in an editorial (?) in Astounding. Brandon decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 CIS 74106,1032 MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time) ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 1986 17:45:50 PST Subject: humor, flames, catching up.... From: Douglas M. Olson I've seen a few mentions of Lieber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser series... now I'll commit a sin. I shall give an incomplete reference. Another FGM story has been written and I stumbled on it in some anthology 4,5,6 months back. However, being in my office, I can't look up the anthology. I shall try to remedy that soon. Sorry, fans. Doug (dolson @ ada20.arpa) ------------------------------ From: reed!soren@caip.rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen) Subject: Re: Re: Eternal Champion Date: 6 May 86 07:20:28 GMT ajb@mruxe.UUCP (A J Burstein) writes: >> Has Moorcock written anything that did not in some way connect >> with everything else he's written? > >Actually, Moorcock has written some good books that don't involve >the Eternal Champion (unless you REALLY stretch it). One is called >Behold the Man, and I think that it won a Nebula. It's about time >travel and Jesus Christ. Another one, a personal favorite, is The >War Hound and the World's Pain. This one takes place in the Thirty >Years War. > >I suppose that the Eternal Champion is now officially linked to The >Dancers at the End of Time by the short story "Elric at the End of >Time" (I'm not kidding). It's recently published in a paperback >collection of short stories under the same name. I haven't read "War Hound" yet, so I can't comment, but "Behold the Man is connected to the others. Firstly Glauckauer (sp.) appears in a couple of other books, especially "Breakfast In the Ruins". Secondly, the time machine in BtM is the same one as the one Jherakh Carnelian uses in "An Alien Heat". Very cute, I thought when I read it. . . Soren Petersen ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 1986 17:45:50 PST Subject: humor, flames, catching up.... From: Douglas M. Olson A SHORT remark on humor in SF: the entire premise of an engaging work much praised in this forum, The Drawing of the Dark by Tim Powers, is treated so seriously, treated so well...that you actually have to step back from the book to see how FUNNY it is...the MAGICAL, POTENT ELIXIR which will RESTORE THE KING and SAVE THE WEST is...no, I can't even give it away. I just won't spoil that one for anybody. Read it and laugh. Doug (dolson @ ada20.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 1986 17:45:50 PST Subject: humor, flames, catching up.... From: Douglas M. Olson Those of you who haven't yet followed recommendations to try Spider Robinson's Night of Power ought to...someone flamed about the cover. True, it (the cover) is terrible. But be warned: the book was SCARIER than a bunch of hoods from Harlem. I mean, the problems cited in this book DO exist and COULD get as bad as he says. But I DON'T see his solution coming true. That leaves us with the problems. This book REALLY scared me. Doug (dolson @ ada20.arpa) ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_akaa@caip.rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee) Subject: Re: Varley's characters Date: 6 May 86 05:34:40 GMT >As far as I can remember, all of John Varley's stories have had >female main characters. Does anyone know of one of his stories in >which the protagonist is female? Assuming you mean "male" in the last sentence, "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank". Kenneth Arromdee BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 May 86 9:58:30 EDT From: "Morris M. Keesan" Subject: Varley's Characters Cc: ihnp4!mruxe!ajb@cca.bbn.com Yes, Varley's main characters are often female, but not exclusively so. Offhand, "The Persistence of Vision" comes to mind, which I'm fairly sure has a male viewpoint character. Not to mention many of his characters who change sex every now and then, for variety. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 6 May 86 06:53:10-CDT From: William DeVaughan Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #103 Re: Survey All Time Favorite: Glory Road - Heinlein Favorite Author: Asimov Hardest To Put Down: LOTR - Tolkien Best With Computers: Press Enter - John Varley Most Interesting/Unusual: Repent Harlequin... - Harlan Ellison Best Series: BOTNS - Wolfe Best Written: Native Language - Suzette Haden Elgin Other Bokooks/Humor: Callahan's Crosstime Saloon - Spider Robinson Best SF: The Kif Strike Back - C J Cherryh Worst Recent Book: TCWWTW - Heinlein Flames For: People who answer surveys with more than one item per question; if you can't decide, disappear til you can! Tribute To: People who write clear concise reviews/recommendations. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 May 86 10:01:35 EDT From: "Morris M. Keesan" Subject: Codex Seraphinianus Yes, it is a wonderful book. Yes, it was horribly expensive when it was issued (about $70, I think). Yes, you can get a copy for less. I got my copy for $29.95 from Publishers Central Bureau. This suggests that it has been remaindered. PCB continues to advertise it in their catalogues, and I suspect that diligent searching will turn it up on remainder tables of large bookstores, and in those bookstores that specialize in remainders. Others have pointed out that it's written in an invented language; however, there is a small amount of natural human language in it. If you have the book, look on the page with the man with a fountain-pen arm. The writing in his notebook is in French. A French friend translated this for us as having something to do with "orgy girls", or "the girls who go to orgies" ("les filles orgiaque", if I remember the French correctly), but she and her brother couldn't agree on what the rest of the text meant. I wonder if this is Luigi Serafini projecting himself into the universe of the Codex -- the writer who is writing something in an alien language? Morris keesan@bbncci.arpa {ihnp4,decvax,etc}!bbncca!keesan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 May 86 08:04 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: LOTR & Star Wars To Scott Schneider: Most of your arguments were based on taking "Star Wars" to mean "The Star Wars Trilogy" while I, and perhaps the original questioner, was referring only to the first movie. The later movies changed the whole face of the mythos, something that was certainly necessary to cash in on SW's popularity. I, for one, don't think Luke's family had anything to do with the first movie -- that this dad and sis bit (I love the fannish theories at that time, mostly based on the line about the "Clone Wars" where, yes, Darth was Luke's father, but he was also is brother, uncle and great-grandfather. And Yoda was is mother.) were concocted long after Star Wars became a phenomena. Of course Luke's quest had to change, if you're going to make an epic into a series! Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Mon 5 May 86 13:49:13-EDT From: WCCS.E-SIMON%KLA.WESLYN%Wesleyan.Bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Legend Regarding the movie "Legend": I saw it twice and thoroughly enjoyed it both times. I would like to address certain comments: >There's some sort of ritual involving throwing a ring into a river, >but it relavence to saving the universe is completely lost. The Princess threw the ring into the LAKE as a test to Tom Cruise ("I will marry whoever finds this ring" or something like that). It has nothing to do with saving the universe. While Tom is looking for it, winter begins to take over the land (due to the male unicorn's death) and he is caught under the ice. Therefore, he can't get the ring back until the end of the movie when the ice thaws. >We're led to believe that by somehow reflecting some sunlight off a >chain of platters to get it down into hell will help fight Satan >off. When the light finally arrives, it (a) blows the doors off >the wall, and (b) has no effect on Satan at all so the hero has to >use his kung foo to save the day. The light is reflected into Curry's lair by the platters and does blow the door off. By this time, Tom has beaten Darkness back into a corner, so when the light does stream into the room, it blows Satan into nothingness (represented by space). Our hero does not use kung fu. And, finally my own question: Has anyone actually seen the European version ? I was not aware that the movie I saw was hacked (and I liked the music by Tangerine Dream and John Anderson). I am just curious as to what was cut out. My Summary: I liked it alot - go to see it as a fantasy film and you will enjoy it. See you in the movies !! Eric J. Simon Wesleyan University ------------------------------ From: Robert Hunter Date: Monday, May 5, 1986 8:44AM EDT Subject: Bond Chronology I'm looking for a title listing of all the Bond films beginning with "Dr. No" and ending with "A View To a Kill" along with the year they were released. Can anyone oblige? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 May 86 10:22 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters I have been collecting the recipes for Terran approximations of the PGGB and am willing to mail them to anyone requesting them (or to post them again if there seems to be a need). Maybe these should become an archived item. Jon pugh#jon%mfe@lll-mfe.arpa pugh%ccv@lll-mfe.arpa pugh#jon@lll-mfe.arpa (least used) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 May 86 0819-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #108 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 7 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 108 Today's Topics: Books - Harrison & Heinlein & Moorcock & Animals in Books & Booklist, Films - Star Wars, Television - Star Trek & Doctor Who ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mecc!sewilco@caip.rutgers.edu (Scot E. Wilcoxon) Subject: Re: flying telephone switchboards Date: 2 May 86 19:41:26 GMT chris@maryland.UUCP (Chris Torek) writes: >kwh@bentley.UUCP (KW Heuer) writes: >>I remember a book called "The Brass Dragon" (I think) in which one >>of the humanoid aliens says to the primitive Terran "Yes, we use >>sliderules too -- of course they're much more powerful than >>yours." >... >[and now, wildly out of context:] Those of you who think of slide >rules as `primitive' should consider also this: The batteries in a >slide rule never wear out. Slide rules are powered by decimal points. That's why you keep losing them near an operating slide rule. :-) The powerful slide rules reminds me of the "powerful radio receivers", including one powerful crystal radio, a running joke in Harry Harrison's satire "Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers". All the aliens speak English by listening to them. "Though you apparently have received none of our answering broadcasts, undoubtedly because of the inferiority of your receivers." Copyright 1973 by Harry Harrison "This book may not be reproduced in whole or in part, by mimeograph or any other means, without permission." Scot E. Wilcoxon Minn. Ed. Comp. Corp. quest!mecc!sewilco 45 03 N / 93 08 W (612)481-3507 {ihnp4,philabs}!mecc!sewilco ------------------------------ From: griffith@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Cutter John) Subject: Heinlein quote Date: 5 May 86 17:36:52 GMT A while ago, I saw a quote from a book by Robert Heinlein that I thought was quite funny, but I wasn't able to get a copy of it. Can anyone send me the quote in its entirety? The last line of it was "And what the hell: they caught him." I'm sure it's a Heinlein classic, but I'm not a Heinlein fan per se. Jim Griffith ------------------------------ Date: Tue 6 May 86 23:51:00-EDT From: LINDSAY@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Moorcock's Eternal Champion There are so many Eternal Champion novels because Moorcock wrote them quickly. In interviews he has confessed to sending out several novels in first draft, having them accepted, and never seeing them again. He had, quite simply, never read his own book. Books such as "Gloriana" and "The Warhound and the World's Pain" strike me as being more carefully crafted. Don Lindsay Tartan Laboratories ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 1986 10:50-PDT Subject: Re: Animals,animals,animals From: WILBUR@OFFICE-2.ARPA Two authors that have used "earth " animals are Andre Norton and Ted White. Andre Norton has used cats in many of her books for years. Ted White used wolves in both "Star Wolf" and "Phoenix Prime". Faye (Wilbur@Office-2) ------------------------------ From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: Other Change Of Hobbit booklist (Part I) Date: 6 May 86 20:25:56 GMT This is the March booklist from The Other Change of Hobbit. The Other Change of Hobbit 2433 Channing Way Berkeley, CA 94704 (415) 848-0413 Booklist #7 April 1986 If you saw this list in an electronic medium, please mention that when you place your order. Thanks. Hardcovers and Trade Paperbacks Aldiss, Brian W. ... AND THE LURID GLARE OF THE COMET More "Articles and Autobiography"; companion volume to THE PALE SHADOW OF SCIENCE. Recommended. Asimov, Isaac (ed.) THE HUGO WINNERS VOLUME 5, 1980-1982 Asimov, Isaac, M. H. SHERLOCK HOLMES THROUGH TIME AND SPACE Greenberg & C. G. Reprint 1985 hardcover. Theme Waugh (eds.) anthology. Baum, L. Frank THE WIZARD OF OZ (Michael Patrick Reprint 1983 hardcover; this critical Hearn, ed.) edition includes the text of the book with the original W. W. Denslow illustrations in the first 132 pages. The remaining 174 pages collect contemporaneous essays and current critiques by James Thurber, Paul Gallico, Martin Gardner, Ray Bradbury, Gore Vidal and others. Benford, Gregory IN ALIEN FLESH A fine (and long overdue) hard science fiction short story collection. [Boucher, Anthony] BOUCHER: A FAMILY PORTRAIT Phyllis White & A very handsome 20+ page pamphlet Lawrence White collecting some oral history about one of sf's great editor/writer/critics. Brooks, Terry MAGIC KINGDOM FOR SALE - SOLD! Card, Orson Scott SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD Sequel to ENDER'S GAME. ("Much more complex and subtle than ENDER'S GAME, with very skillful use of various forms of culture shock. Guaranteed to be one of the best novels of 1986." - Debbie and Dave) Cherryh, C. J. VISIBLE LIGHT Signed, slipcased edition limited to 300 copies Short story collection with new connective material and one previously unpublished story. Contains the Hugo winner "Cassandra". Cherryh, C. J. and THE GATES OF HELL Janet Morris "The first full-length novel set in Janet Morris' Hell..." Apparently last month's "braided mega-novel" wasn't full-length. Individual chapters in this novel are copyrighted separately. "Basileus", by both authors, previously appeared in HEROES IN HELL (and as a teaser at the back of RHIALTO THE MARVELOUS by Jack Vance). ("I liked it, much to my own surprise." - Jennifer) Clarke, Arthur C. THE SONGS OF DISTANT EARTH Novel based on the 1958 short story of the same title. Dahl, Roald ROALD DAHL'S REVOLTING RHYMES Reprint 1983 hardcover; delightful color illustrations by Quentin Blake. Dick, Philip K. THE MAN WHOSE TEETH WERE ALL EXACTLY ALIKE Reprint 1984 hardcover; early mainstream novel published posthumously. Eddings, David THE BELGARIAD I Collects PAWN OF PROPHECY (1982), QUEEN OF SORCERY (1982) and MAGICIAN'S GAMBIT (1983). THE BELGARIAD II Collects CASTLE OF WIZARDRY (1984) and ENCHANTER'S ENDGAME (1984). Beautiful British hardcover editions, with jackets by Chris Achilleos. Feist, Raymond E. A DARKNESS AT SETHANON The Finale of the Riftwar Saga, following MAGICIAN and SILVERTHORN. Gibson, William COUNT ZERO Connected to NEUROMANCER. ["A bit of a disappointment - not enough of the 'magic' that NEUROMANCER had. Still interesting; just not spectacular." - Tom) Gribbin, John IN SEARCH OF THE BIG BANG: QUANTUM PHYSICS AND COSMOLOGY Hubbard, L. Ron BLACK GENESIS Mission Earth Volume 2 (of 10). Johnson, Denis FISKADORO Reprint 1985 hardcover. Lem, Stanislaw ONE HUMAN MINUTE Three long "reviews" of not-yet-written books. Lynn, Elizabeth A. THE SILVER HORSE Reprint 1984 hardcover (only $2.00 less than the hardcover!). Ask us about the varying states on this one (but only if you really care). ["Tale of a plucky San Franciscan's adventure in Dreamland. An extremely well-drafted book. Highly recommended." - Jan) [MacAvoy, R. A.] I, DAMIANO: THE WIZARD OF PARTESTRADA An interactive adventure adapted and written by P. A. Golden; available for IBM PC/PCjr or Apple II series computers. McCaffrey, Anne NERILKA'S STORY A Pern adventure. Tiny hardcover copiously illustrated by Edwin Herder. ["A nice little story set at the same time as MORETA. Well-drawn characters and compact plot, but not enough to make a book." - Jennifer) Nesbit, E. THE BOOK OF DRAGONS Reprint 1900 hardcover short story collection; 1972 Blegrad illustrations and new afterword by Anne McCaffrey. Recommended. O'Shea, Pat THE HOUNDS OF THE MORRIGAN Sturgeon, Theodore GODBODY Introduction by Robert A. Heinlein. ("A heart-warming evocation of love, sexuality and human weakness from a quintessentially 1960s perspective. A fitting memorial to Sturgeon, and simultaneously an unmistakable period piece." - Debbie) Vance, Jack CHASCH: TSCH'AI I Reprint 1968 paperback. This edition illustrated by Philip Hagopian. THE GREEN PEARL Reprint 1985 limited edition hardcover. Sequel to LYONESSE. Watson, Ian THE BOOK OF IAN WATSON "A kind of autobiography woven of fiction and non-fiction." - author's preface. Wilson, Robert Anton THE ILLUMINATI PAPERS 1982 British reprint of 1980 American edition; now distributed by the original American publisher. An illustrated companion to the ILLUMINATUS trilogy. Mike Farren uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667 ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 86 15:32:07 EDT From: RPK@COM.EXEC Subject: Star Wars About a year ago I saw the film "The Hidden Fortress", directed by Akira Kurosawa, starring Toshiro Mifune. At the time, the newspaper review were suggesting that George Lucas used that film as at least part of the inspiration for his film "Star Wars". The plot: Some time in the feudal period of Japan, two lowly peasants are enlisted by a warrior and a girl traveling incognito. The mission is to help the girl return to her homeland with valuable information. They must travel in disguise, at times directly under the noses of enemy soldiers. In the end they succeed, and the peasants are called to the court of the princess, where she and the general, both now in full regalia, formally give their thanks. They're not as similar as "The Seven Samurai" and "The Magnificent Seven", but the connection is undeniable. Richard ------------------------------ From: unirot!shark@caip.rutgers.edu (chris rhodes) Subject: Re: Quotes Date: 6 May 86 23:39:31 GMT Actually, the quote was *only* from COTEOF. The similar quote in "Arena" was "He knows, Doctor. He has reasoned it out. Anybody know where the planet scenes in (oh sh*t, ummm... the episode that took place on the planet Deneva about the cheese omelets which got stuck on Spock's back...) were filmed? Methinks UCLA. Chris Rhodes / Shooting Shark / Tiburon Systems 415/581-1553 uucp: {ihnp4,seismo,sun,etc.}!lll-crg!{csuh!shark|caip!unirot!shark} ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 86 10:18:35 EDT From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: The Face of Evil Carlo Samson writes that he is confused by Tom Baker's Doctor's head being the one shown in the episode "The Face of Evil"... The producers of the show were very fond of having the Doctor visit a planet and mention that he was there before. As a matter of fact, the Pertwee episodes, "The Curse of Peladon", and "The Monster of Peladon" marked the first time the Doctor revisited a planet in the same incarnation with the possible exceptions of Skaro and Earth. Notable examples are "the Twin Dilemma" where Colin Baker's Doctor said he had visited the planet in his Fourth regeneration and in "Time Lash" where Colin Baker (Him again?) visited the world as Jon Pertwee with Jo Grant. >But there's something strange here: the Face is that of the Fourth >Doctor, yet he couldn't have visited the planet any time after his >third regeneration since we've seen where he's been with Sarah >Jane. And if he had visited the planet in one of his previous >lives, then the Face would have been that of whatever incarnation >(i.e. First, Second) had done the repair work on the computer. The >point is that the Face could not have been the Fourth Doctor's >since he hadn't yet been to Leela's planet in that incarnation. Just because we didn't see the Doctor and Sarah actually visit the planet doesn't mean that they were never there. While their early adventures from "Robot" to "The Android Invasion" pretty much follow directly in sequence, there are numerous gaps in their later adventures together where they might have popped off without us knowing. For example, at the end of "Brain of Morbius" they went off to Rassilon knows where, yet at the beginning of the next episode "The Seeds of Doom", the Doctor and Sarah were obviously on Earth for a while before being called in to help. There are similar gaps between "The Seeds of Doom" where the Doctor and Sarah go off on a holiday to Cassiopea at the end and "Masque of Mandragora" where they mis-materialise while going home. It is quite curious that Samson's letter was printed when it was, because I am currently writing the Doctor Who story where the Doctor and Sarah land on the Sevateem planet and mess up the Computer. Its called "The Survey Team" (Tentative title). I personally chose to set it between "Seeds of Doom" and "Masque of Mandragora". May you never lose the key to your TARDIS, Steve (Pearl@Blue.Rutgers.Edu) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 May 86 0830-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #109 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 7 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 109 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (2 msgs) & Booklist ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sdcrdcf!markb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar) Subject: Re: Heinlein's Future History Date: 5 May 86 17:30:20 GMT Sorry, but there are more stories missing from TPTT then just TEFL and NOTB. The short story "Let There Be Light" which appears in the collection "The Man Who Sold The Moon" is also part ot the Future History stories, as is the novella "Universe", also if you look at the time-line in TPTT you will notice that there are at least 2 stories that were planned but never written (I don't remember the titles). The title "The Past Through Tomarrow" was given the the collection at the time it was published (early 70's I think) when it was realized that the first several stories (at least "Lifeline", "The Roads Must Roll" and "Blowups Will Happen") were already non-existent history (happening in the 50's and 60's). So the stories are presented (Read the intro) as an alternate time-line that branched off of ours some time in the 50's. Note, how the alternate time-line stuff shows up this early before NOtb. Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb ------------------------------ From: acm@ucla-cs.ARPA (Assoc for Computing Machinery ) Subject: Re: Heinlein's Future History Date: 5 May 86 07:51:14 GMT Heinlein did NOT call his stories "FUTURE HISTORY". This is what John Campbell did in the late '40's according to the introduction to the Heinlein anthology _The_Past_Throught_Tomorrow_. If you are interested in what stories were part of this "FUTURE HISTORY", you might try looking in the anthology collection _A_Menace_From_Earth_ (either Signet or Berkeley) where, if I remember correctly, Heinlein includes a sort of time line- event synopsis from the _Roads_Must_ Roll_ up to _Methuselas'_Children_. If you are even more curious, please send e-mail to me directly and, after I get home this morning and return in a few hours, I'll let anyone know about whatever about Heinlein's stories (and novels if interest is there). David E. Lee UCLA ACM Chairman ------------------------------ From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: Other Change Of Hobbit booklist (Part II) Date: 6 May 86 20:25:56 GMT This is the March booklist from The Other Change of Hobbit. The Other Change of Hobbit 2433 Channing Way Berkeley, CA 94704 (415) 848-0413 Booklist #7 April 1986 If you saw this list in an electronic medium, please mention that when you place your order. Thanks. Mass Market Paperbacks Anthony, Piers ANTHONOLOGY Reprint 1985 hardcover short story collection (obviously). Asimov, Janet and THE NORBY CHRONICLES Isaac Reprints NORBY THE MIXED-UP ROBOT (1983) and NORBY'S OTHER SECRET (1984). Young adult robot novels. Asimov, Isaac, M. H. GREAT SCIENCE FICTION STORIES BY THE WORLD'S Greenberg and . GREAT SCIENTISTS C. G. Waugh (eds.) Well, some great stories, and one or two great scientists . . . Bailey, Robin W. BLOODSONGS Final volume of the Frost trilogy, following FROST and SKULL GATE. Beamer, Charles WHEN THE GODS RETURNED Bear, Greg BLOOD MUSIC Reprint 1985 hardcover; 1985 Nebula Award nominee. Benary-Isbert, Margot THE WICKED ENCHANTMENT Reprint 1955 hardcover; would have been a MagicQuest. Stunning Maitz cover. Recommended by Jan and Jennifer. Blaylock, James P. HOMUNCULUS Bowes, Richard WARCHILD Byers, Edward A. THE BABYLON GATE Caidin, Martin THE MESSIAH STONE [Campbell, John W.] THE JOHN W. CAMPBELL LETTERS VOLUME I Perry A. An extremely interesting collection of Chapdelaine, Sr., the Great Editor's letters, unfortunately Tony Chapdelaine & poorly proofread and indexed. George Hay (eds.) "Clarke, Robert" LESS THAN HUMAN (Charles Platt) Amusing-looking spoof; the author's real name is on the copyright page. Clayton, Jo DRINKER OF SOULS Not related to Diadem or Duel of Sorcery. Coppel, Alfred (as THE NAVIGATOR OF RHADA Robert Cham Gilman) Reprint 1969 hardcover. The third book in the Rhada series. da Cruz, Daniel TEXAS ON THE ROCKS Sequel to THE AYES OF TEXAS. Dalkey, Kara THE CURSE OF SAGAMORE ("Amusing fantasy in the Scribblies' style." - Tom) Dickinson, Peter HEALER Reprint 1983 hardcover. First (British) paperback. ("One of his more challenging young adult novels; recommended." - Tom) Feist, Raymond E. MAGICIAN: MASTER Reprint of the second half of the 1982 hardcover MAGICIAN. The first half was published as MAGICIAN: APPRENTICE. The second (or second half of the first) book of the Riftwar Saga. Gentle, Mary A HAWK IN SILVER Reprint 1977 hardcover. Gibson, William NEUROMANCER Fourth printing; new (uncredited, ugly) cover. No longer an Ace Science Fiction Special (but retains Terry Carr's introduction to the Specials). Winner 1985 Nebula Award; 1984 Hugo Award. Recommended. Godwin, Parke THE LAST RAINBOW Reprint 1985 trade paperback. Arthurian novel. Grant, Charles L. AFTER MIDNIGHT (ed.) Horror anthology; some reprints, some originals. Haldeman, Joe (ed.) BODY-ARMOR: 2000 with M. H. Greenberg Need we say more? and C. G. Waugh Harness, Charles L. REDWORLD Herbert, Frank HERETICS OF DUNE Reprint 1984 hardcover. [Howard, Robert E.] CONAN THE RENEGADE Leon Carpenter Yet another pastiche; according to de Camp this falls before "Shadows in the Moonlight" in CONAN THE FREEBOOTER. Johnson, Crockett BARNABY #4: MR. O'MALLEY GOES FOR THE GOLD Collects 5/8/44 to 1/12/45; introduced by an adulatory letter from Dorothy Parker (1943). Recommended, as always. Kilworth, Garry THEATER OF TIMESMITHS Reprint 1984 British hardcover; first U.S. edition. Leiber, Fritz THE WANDERER Reprint 1964 paperback. Hugo award winner, 1965. New Walotsky cover. Lively, Penelope THE WILD HUNT OF THE GHOST HOUNDS Reprint 1971 British hardcover; first U.S. edition. Would have been a MagicQuest. MacLeod, Charlotte THE CURSE OF THE GIANT HOGWEED Reprint 1985 hardcover. ("Fun stuff - an agriculture professor finds himself in Ancient Wales, where he has remarkably silly adventures." - Jennifer) McCaffrey, Anne DRAGONSINGER Reprint 1977 hardcover; 15th printing. New Rowena "cover art". McKinley, Robin THE HERO AND THE CROWN Reprint 1984 hardcover. Newbery Award winner (Best Children's Fiction). ("This prequel to THE BLUE SWORD is an even better book, well-deserving of its Newbery, and of your time and attention." - Debbie) Moorcock, Michael THE QUEEN OF THE SWORDS Reprint 1971 paperback. The 2nd Book of Corum; new Robert Gould cover. Morris, Janet BEYOND SANCTUARY Reprint 1985 hardcover. The first Thieves' World (TM) novel. Nesbit, E. THE ENCHANTED CASTLE Reprint 1907 hardcover. NEW TREASURE SEEKERS Reprint 1904 hardcover. (Both recommended, especially THE ENCHANTED CASTLE, which might just be Nesbit's best book" - Debbie). Pohl, Frederik BLACK STAR RISING Reprint 1985 hardcover. Pohl, Frederik and GLADIATOR-AT-LAW C. M. Kornbluth Reprint 1953 hardcover; this edition recently tampered with by the surviving author. Powers, Tim FORSAKE THE SKY Heavily revised version of THE SKIES DISCROWNED (1976). ("The plot's exactly the same, but now it's a good adventure story with reasonable characters instead of a fairly dull one." - Tom) Pyle, Howard THE STORY OF KING ARTHUR AND HIS KNIGHTS Reprint 1903 hardcover; first mass paperback. Roberson, Jennifer LEGACY OF THE SWORD Chronicles of the Cheysuli: Book Three. SHAPE-CHANGERS Chronicles of the Cheysuli: Book One. Reprint 1984 paperback, with new Vulek Haller cover to match the new volume. Roberts, John Maddox KING OF THE WOOD Reprint 1983 hardcover. Russell, Eric Frank NEXT OF KIN Reprint 1959 British hardcover; this is the original, longer version of the 1958 (U.S.) THE SPACE WILLIES. ("I prefer the short version - this feels a bit padded." - Tom. "Me, too. Interesting only for the minor sexual innuendo that Campbell obviously cut." - Dave) Schmidt, Dennis KENSHO Reprint 1979 paperback; second in the Wayfarer series. Shetterly, Will WITCH BLOOD Silverberg, Robert & THE TIME TRAVELERS M. H. Greenberg Reprint 1985 hardcover. Four classic (eds.) stories. Snodgrass, Melinda M. CIRCUIT ("A well-done pro-space story with a lawyer/judge as the protagonist. Both law and plotting are quite different from the usual." - Jennifer) Sucharitkul, Somtow THE FALLEN COUNTRY ("Young adult novel with some unfortunately preachy overtones, but also some beautiful writing." - Debbie) Tilley, Patrick THE FIRST FAMILY The Amtrak Wars Book II. (Book I was CLOUD WARRIOR, which had no series title on the American edition). Reprint 1985 British paperback. Tiptree, James, Jr. BRIGHTNESS FALLS FROM THE AIR Reprint 1985 hardcover; Dave's favorite book of 1985. ("This brilliantly-structured science fiction novel combines drawing-room mystery, alien warfare, time paradox and more, into one of the most memorable and satisfying books of recent years." - Debbie) Vance, Jack THE DYING EARTH Reprint 1950 paperback. Unquestionably one of the finest science fantasy books. If you haven't read it, do so immediately. Volsky, Paula THE SORCERER'S LADY ("An entertaining novel with some fine twists on fantasy cliches. First in a series, and I'll read the others." - Debbie) Weis, Margaret and THE TIME OF THE TWINS Tracy Hickman DragonLance (TM) Legends, Volume I. ("Much better than the first series; interesting characters and clever plot twists." - Jennifer) Whiteford, Wynne SAPPHIRE ROAD Reprint 1982 Australian edition. Zelazny, Roger THE GUNS OF AVALON Reprint 1982 hardcover; 12th paperback printing. New Tim White cover to match TRUMPS OF DOOM and NINE PRINCES IN AMBER. Mike Farren uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 May 86 0808-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #110 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 12 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 110 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Brin & Brust & Heinlein & Laumer & Pohl & Powers & Story Request & Old Story Request Response (2 msgs), Films - Aurora Encounter, Television - Doctor Who, Miscellaneous - Reading Habits & Quote Source Request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert) Subject: Re: THE NORBY CHRONICLES by Janet & Isaac Asimov Date: 4 May 86 11:42:07 GMT Not being a juvenile, I cannot say for certain whether it would be appreciated by one or not. (My kids prefer to be called teenagers -- never was quite certain what age group juveniles were supposed to be anyway.) Be that as it may, am currently reading this book, the first story was enjoyable. Not classic or relevant, but better than watching television. For what that's worth. I wish the the Leepers (duo) would review books with more of na objective viewpoint. Too much subjectivity destroys a book review (in my opinion) -- however, I merely read them (books that is) and so am not a professional reviewer. Generaly I classify books in three catagories: 1) So good that I cannot put it down, even missing my favorite tv show (which consists of about three shows this year) 2) Good enough to read instead of watching tv, or read during commercials 3) So bad that I watch commercials rather than reading it Bill ------------------------------ From: isis!tkoppel@caip.rutgers.edu ( News Guest) Subject: Re: David Brin's book _THE POSTMAN_ Date: 5 May 86 03:41:10 GMT I too enjoyed the book (a lot--much more than I liked his earlier works) and wanted to purchase a copy. It seems to be in limbo; the hardbound copies have been returned to the publisher and the paperback won't be out for several months. My local B Dalton special ordered it for me, and it came fairly quickly from the piblisher. Hope it wins the award, it is a 'good read'. Ted Koppel Colorado Alliance of Research Libraries hao!isis!tkoppel 303-750-9142 ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!oyster@caip.rutgers.edu (Vicarious Oyster) Subject: Re: JHEREG by Steven Brust Date: 7 May 86 15:26:00 GMT bane@parcvax.Xerox.COM (John R. Bane) writes: >I really enjoyed Jhereg an Yendi by Brust, but for the life of me I >can't remember the plots! All SORTS of interesting things >happened, though. And therein lies the problem I have with Brust and SF-Lovers. From what I've seen of his writings, it's all throw-away. The books are fun to read, but forgettable. There is, of course, nothing wrong with that-- I'm proud to declare that reading SF is entertainment for me, and I don't want or need Joyce (or even readable stuff like Kafka or Montaigne) during *my* leisure time. However, those people who malign other "good read" authors seem strangely silent when the topic of Brust comes up. Is it merely because he might be listening? God forbid Mr. Brust find out somebody actually reads his books for entertainment, and doesn't find deep meaning in 'em! Joel ({allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster) ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 86 06:42 CDT From: MSgt Robert L. Stevenson Subject: Re: Future History/The Past Through Tomorrow Heinlein didn't come up with the name Future History. If you read the intro to The Past Through Tomorrow, it explains the printing of the timeline and the origin of the name Future History (Another author of note persuaded him to print the time line and gave it the name.) Steve ------------------------------ From: sdcc13!ma71sea@caip.rutgers.edu (David Lee Smith{|stu) Subject: Re: Laumer Novels Date: 6 May 86 04:54:19 GMT Also be on the look-out for Rogue Bolo. It's a two story book like PanGalatic Puchritude etc. Rogue Bolo is lousy, being one of Laumer's compilations of snipets of viewpoints from different characters and the story doesn't fit into the time-line at all It's not even a good action story, since the Bolo solves everything with some near-magical powers it discovers it has. The second story is OK, but not worth buying the book for. David L. Smith UC Sandy Eggo ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdcc13!ma71sea ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdcc3!sdcc15!ee64sgy ucbvax!sdcsvax!man!wolf!dlsmith ------------------------------ From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert) Subject: Re: BLACK STAR RISING by Frederik Pohl Date: 4 May 86 11:36:15 GMT Personally, I found this a book that I could not put down -- I read the whole thing in one sitting. Maybe it is a tax write-off, but so what? Of course, I have always liked Pohl. (And Pohl/Williamson, Pohl/Kornbluth, etc.) so I may be prejudiced. I also like Asimov, Heinlein, Poul Anderson and some Andre Norton. Would appreciate the sequel also, agree that it has all of the classic hooks for the next book. Bill ------------------------------ From: ihuxl!gandalf@caip.rutgers.edu (Schurman) Subject: Powers, Blaylock, & Wm Ashbless Date: 3 May 86 00:43:29 GMT Warning: The following contains a SPOILER of _The Anubis Gates_ I haven't been on the net that long, so I hope I'm not dredging up something that's already been done to death, but this has been bugging me for a quite a while. Some postings I've seen tell me there are other people on the net who've obviously read _The Anubis Gates_ &| _The Drawing of the Dark_ (by Tim Powers). Have any of you read anything by James P. Blaylock too? Did you notice anything odd about the characters and references in these books? Specifically... The quote from William Ashbless that leads off _The Drawing of the Dark_ couldn't be more appropriate. (If but we Christians have our beer, nothing's to fear.) It's so appropriate that I'm tempted to think that Powers just made it up. Another possibility is that he wrote the book around the quote, but this seems even less likely. Ashbless takes a giant leap in importance in _The Anubis Gates_. He is the main character of the book. At least that's his name in victorian England. He started out with the name Bredan Doyle. (Hmm, The main character of ~DotD~ is Brian Duffy. Do all of Power's protagonists have the initials B.D. If they do what does *that* mean?) In James P. Blaylock's _The Digging Leviathan_ again there is a character named William Ashbless. The novels takes place in modern times, but there are hints that this is the original Ashbless. I haven't read _Homonculus_ (Blaylock's latest) yet, but I'll bet there's at least a reference to Ashbless. I'm certain that Powers and Blaylock know each other. _Dinner at Deviants Palace_ is dedicated to the-Thursday-evening-group or something like that, and Blaylock is a member. There are other sneaky references like Brian Duffy (in ~DotD) teaching some boys to play a piece of grass, and using Blaylock's _Wilde Manne_ as an example (page 49 para 3) that seem to confirm this association. What I want to know is... Has anyone read anything else with William Ashbless as a character? Does anyone know these guys? Are either of them on the net? But mostly - What's the deal with this Ashbless guy ???? Happy reading, Ralph Schurman ...!ihnp4!ihuxl!gandalf ------------------------------ From: bane@parcvax.Xerox.COM (John R. Bane) Subject: Another "Do you know this story?" request Date: 5 May 86 21:22:37 GMT While sending a message about funny F & SF, I mentioned the dueling scene in "The Princess Bride" (at the Cliffs of Insanity, where the Man In Black says, "See, I'm not left-handed either!") which had been excerpted for Spider Robinson's anthology "The Best Of All Possible Worlds", I remembered a story I had read recently, probably in Analog, probably 1975 or 1976. Anyway, what I remembered was that the story had been tongue-in-cheek, and that the duel scene was in there, copied almost exactly except starring the main character. Anybody remember this at all? I know it's not much to go on. Thanks! Rene P S (nee Steiner) Bane bane@parcvax ------------------------------ From: cbmvax.cbm!andy@caip.rutgers.edu (Andy Finkel) Subject: Re: Title&&Author: Sentient becomes contact in computer Subject: simulation Date: 7 May 86 14:25:06 GMT waynet@tolerant.UUCP writes: >I recall reading a short story which involved a computer simulation >of a society in which the only practicable contact between reality >and computer simulation was through a sentient entity within the >the simulation. Any pointers would be welcome. That sounds like either "When Harlie Was One", by David Gerrold, or "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" by Douglas Adams (think about it...) andy finkel Commodore(Amiga) {ihnp4|seismo|allegra}!cbmvax!andy or pyramid!amiga!andy ------------------------------ From: cbmvax.cbm!andy@caip.rutgers.edu (Andy Finkel) Subject: Re: Time is Money Date: 7 May 86 14:28:02 GMT meissner@dg_rtp.UUCP (Michael Meissner) writes: >colonel@ellie.UUCP (Col. G. L. Sicherman) writes: >>An old idea. I remember having seen it in an SF novel serialized >>in (F&SF?) in the 70's. It was about a planet where morality was >>enforced by surgically implanting remote-control death devices in >>newborns' brains. One person held the controls. Anybody remember >>it? I think it was nominated for some prize or other. > >Sounds like "Die said the Ticktock Man" by Harlan Ellison. Actually, it sounds more like "Logan's Run", by (I think) William F Nolan (BTW, it was "Repent, Harlequin, said the Ticktock Man", by Harlan Ellison. I wonder if the name Harlan comes from...nah, too obvious.) andy finkel Commodore(Amiga) {ihnp4|seismo|allegra}!cbmvax!andy or pyramid!amiga!andy ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 86 06:38 CDT From: MSgt Robert L. Stevenson Subject: Re: Aurora Encounter Pardon me if I'm wrong, but the movie seems to be loosely based on a hoax. A Reporter/Editor in a small texas town printed a sotry about an alien visiting and dieing in the town and being buried in the local cemetary. Asbout 10 or so years later, one of the supermarket scandal rags resurrected the story from the "morgue" and printed it as fact. It caused the small Texas town no small pain in the a**. You see when it was printed, the whole town knew it was whole cloth but the people reading the reprint didn't and bothered the dickens out of the town trying to get souvenirs. So much for the "based on a true story" theory. Steve ------------------------------ From: jaffe@caip.RUTGERS.EDU (Saul) Subject: News from England Date: 7 May 86 15:17:25 GMT I received my issue of the Whovian Times from the DWFCA last night and thought I'd share with you some of the information: [Note: all of this is reprinted without permission] (deleted) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 86 10:35 EDT From: " Roz " Subject: Reading Habits/Question (long?) I am a voracious reader. But, over the last 6-9 months I've noticed a habit: a few books, I seem to read as fast as I possibly can--almost skim them--like a child wolfing down a "goodie", and then when I'm all done I reread the book (or the whole series, if the book is part of a series) at a more normal pace; other books (which I thoroughly enjoy) I read at a normal to slow (savoringly) pace and reread at a later date. This has probably been going on for a long time, and it has only JUST NOW registered that THAT is what I've been doing! Examples: _The King's Justice_ (Kathryn Kurtz) and _Courts of Chaos_ (Roger Zelazny) were examples of the former, while _Way Station_ was one of the latter. Is this something "normal" people do, or are my family and friends correct in saying that I'm weird? I have a hunch it has to do with story lines (i.e. "gotta read this as fast as I can so I can see how the story advances; when that's done you can go back and really read what is going on!") versus listening to the sounds of the language and visualizing the pictures. When I'm on one of these "gotta read" books, I ignore my cat, son, husband, the news...virtually everything and everyone (wweeellll, I do get up and go to work since I like to spend money--on books, if nothing else!) until I am done with the first reading of the book. Which is definitely a personality change! HHmmmmmmmm! Roz ------------------------------ From: griffith@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (James "Cutter John" Griffith) Subject: Re: my earlier request Date: 6 May 86 22:25:15 GMT In a previous note, I made a request for a full quotation from a "Heinlein" book that I had seen once. I have since then been informed that the quote was actually from Harlan Ellison. Whoops. At any rate, I still haven't received email from anyone knowing the entire quote, so I'm still hoping. The punchline of the quote was "And what the hell, they caught him". Help?!?!? Jim Griffith griffith@pavepaws ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 May 86 0840-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #111 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 12 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 111 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Asimov & Heinlein & Hodgell (2 msgs) & Moorcock & Varley & Parallel Worlds Stories & Time Stories, Films - The Samurai Trilogy & Rocky Horror, Television - Doctor Who, Miscellaneous - Pan-Galactic Gargleblaster & SFL T-shirt & New SF SIG ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu 8 May 86 08:23:42-EDT From: Laurence Brothers Subject: incarnations: don't bother! As usual, Piers Anthony has another series where the first book is pretty good, (** in -***** to *****), but the successive books drop in quality by 3* each. Really, the whole thing seems to be a bizarre soap opera set to Anthony's weird morality which he seems intent on braining the reader with each chance he gets. Anthony has been writing his stupid moralizing fables since the first XANTH book, and he doesn't show any signs of kicking the habit. Aesop did it a lot better. However, he DOES have a nice author's afterword in each novel, but this hardly makes up for the fiction itself. Laurence ------------------------------ Date: Wed 7 May 86 15:47:43-EDT From: WCCS.E-SIMON%KLA.WESLYN%Wesleyan.Bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: NOT SO HUMUROUS SF Cc: s.r-freundlich%KLA.WESLYN%Wesleyan.Bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Please allow me to comment on a SF story which definitely WAS NOT IN THE LEAST BIT FUNNY. I recently purchased F&SF (Oct, 1980) at my local bookstore (The Printers Devil in Middletown, CT offers a great selection), mainly because I noticed a short story by Asimov was contained therein. The story is entitled "Death of a Foy". Little did I realize that all of my sensibilities were about to be attacked by a seemingly innocent 3-page story. This tale ends in a pun which is so excruciatingly painful that I had to run around in circles for ten minutes yelling "oogie oogie oogie !!!" just to keep myself from throwing up on my girlfriend's shoes. (The pun was one of those which paraphrases a popular saying). I was so hurt by Mr. Asimov's unkind thrust, that I feel forced to vent my frustration here. Asimov wrote (in the introduction to "The Up-To-Date Sorcerer" in Nightfall_and_Other_Stories): You see, there is no margin for error in humor ... The not-quite-humorous remark, the not-quite-witty rejoinder, the not-quite-farcical episode are, respectively, dreary, stupid, and ridiculous. Please, Mr. Asimov (as well as all other authors), do not insult you fans by writing such utterly unsatisfying stories (or, at least, if you do, make them funny). Eric J. Simon Wesleyan University wccs.e-simon%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet ------------------------------ From: druhi!bryan@caip.rutgers.edu (BryanJT) Subject: Re: RAH Future History: The po' boy's collection Date: 2 May 86 14:03:51 GMT tainter@ihlpg.UUCP writes: > This doesn't cover everything. > Friday > ...are also part of the future history. I saw nothing in "Friday" to indicate any connection with any of the other Future History stories. In fact, in many ways it is inconsistent with the other stories (living artifacts, artificial people, the particular sequence of planets being colonized, the kind of spacecraft/power supply being used, etc.). Otherwise, I agree with you; the Future History consists of: The Past Through Tomorrow Time Enough for Love I Will Fear No Evil (although just barely) and one that people are still arguing about: The Number of the Beast (the last couple of chapters) And even possibly (I haven't read it yet): The Cat Who Walks Through Walls (One of my favorite stories in the entire Future History series is "If This Goes On ..." -- the one about where a bunch of people overthrow the U.S. Government which, at that time, is a religious dictatorship). John T. Bryan AT&T Information Systems Laboratories, Denver, Colorado ...!ihnp4!druhi!bryan (303) 538-5172 ------------------------------ From: reed!soren@caip.rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen) Subject: P. G. Hodgell Date: 6 May 86 07:40:41 GMT Has anyone read the new book by P. G. Hodgell called (I think) *Dark is the Moon*? I saw it in a bookstore, in hardcover, so I didn't get it. It is a sequel to *Godstalk* (which I enjoyed, although I gather a fair number of net.people didn't). Opinions? Facts? Reviews? Soren Petersen ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!tewok@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Morrison) Subject: Re: P. G. Hodgell Date: 7 May 86 19:09:47 GMT At last! I've been hoping Hodgell would bring out a sequel to *Godstalk*. I am also one of the few that enjoyed it. What were the reasons against it? Sorry, I have no review of *Dark is the Moon*, I haven't seen it anywhere, hard or soft cover. Thanks, Soren, you have made my afternoon. Wayne Morrison Parallel Computation Lab University of Maryland (301)454-7690 ARPA: tewok@brillig UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!tewok ------------------------------ Date: Wed 7 May 86 19:39:52-GDT From: Alan Greig Subject: Moorcock and Hawkwind Yes the band Hawkwind do still exist (but I'm still hoping they will give up some day..). They even currently have a single in the UK HM charts - there isn't an SF music chart!). Their latest album entitled Chronicle of the Black Sword (I think) is based on Moorcocks works and during the recent tour to promote the album Moorcock appeared on stage with the band in London. Incidentally the British copy at least of the first 'Dancers' book is dedicated to the band by names of the members of Hawkwind at that time. As to their drugs connection, well they play that down now but when I saw them at Dundee University a couple of years ago, I was a little bit suspicious about a rather strange oral musical instrument that appeared to be smoking when played and come to think of it the place did smell a little odd....... Alan Greig ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1986 10:08 SA From: Tero Siili Subject: Varley's female protagonist's Andy Burstein, first I want to simply agree with your description on J. Varley's style. I would like to add, that the way I see it, he sort of strips off the simplified heroism of males, without 'donating' it exclusively to females. Varley deals with PERSONS, and persons meaning intelligent beings, not just humans. Titanides, Blimps, Angels, humans - they are all the same sort, all with their species-typical as well as personal excellencies and deficiencies. Another thing which I have found refreshing is Varley's apparent realism. (at least I'll call it realism). He does not begin to moralize, but treats moralism and ethics as a relative and situation/species/person dependent code. To give an example, his society descriptions are far from being utopian, they are HUMAN. Just some thoughts on Varley... Tero Siili FYS-TS@FINHUT.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 1986 16:51:17-EDT From: wyzansky@NADC Subject: Parallel Worlds travel stories If you are interested in parallel universe travel stories, to my thinking, the best on this subject is H. Beam Piper with his Paratime stories, collected mostly in _Paratime_ although there is one gem, "Crossroads of Destiny", in the _Worlds_of_H._Beam_Piper_ anthology, and, of course, _Lord_Kalvan_of_Otherwhen_. While I am on the subject, about a year ago, Roland Green and John Carr came out with a Lord Kalvan sequel: _Great_King's_War_. Flame on> The authors have proved, beyond any doubt, that they have studied ancient and medieval battles extensively. Still, having knights, in full plate armor, several hundred years after the invention of gunpowder, and its use in muskets and artillery, is stretching probability even beyond what one could expect, even in a parallel world. About 5-10 years ago, an excellent short story appeared in Playboy > (yes, some people actually read the articles ;-) that really > illustrated the value of time. The article was called "Time is > Money" and the basic idea was that time, rather than money, was > used as the medium of exchange. Everyone was born with a certain > amount of time, and when you reached a certain age you had to > start earning your own time. It could be traded, saved, invested, > borrowed, loaned, used to buy goods, etc. But, when you finally > used up all of your time, you died. Another related story: "`Repent, Harlequin !' said the Ticktockman" by Harlan Ellison, which was the 1966 Hugo winning short story. It centers on the TickTockMan who is in charge of maintaining everyone's timecards as well as their cario-cards. Every time someone is late (to anything), time is subtracted from their card. When their time runs out, they receive a termination notice (with a few days warning so that they might straighten out their affairs) and are killed using their cardio-cards. Our hero (the Harlequin) fights against this society in a myriad of humerous and creative ways (including dropping $150,000 worth of jelly beans onto an unsuspecting assembly line, therefore disrupting schedules by 7 minutes). This related story makes for amusing reading. Eric J. Simon Wesleyan University wccs.e-simon%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet ------------------------------ From: slu70!guy@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Wizards (and myths): {really Star Wars} Date: 5 May 86 17:35:58 GMT anich@puff.UUCP (Steve Anich) writes: > Not really, other than a basic good vs evil plot. Star Wars does >have many similarities to a movie by Akiro Kurasawa -- The Samuri >Triology, I think. Actually, I think that they were by Inagake although the movies are strongly reminiscent of Kurosawa. I once saw them back to back in six hours. It was worth it but I don't know if I would try it again. ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 86 16:11:04 EDT (Thursday) Subject: Rocky Horror Picture Show query From: Chris Heiny I need to know the words to "Over at the Frankenstein Place" [I think that's the title] - the third song of the film, sung as Brad & Janet are trudging thru the rain. It would be of most use if I knew which lines were sung by what character. Can any of you RHPS fans out there help me? Please reply directly to me, rather than to the net. Thanks, Chris ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_bjab@caip.rutgers.edu (Jessica A Browner) Subject: Re: Doctor Who Date: 5 May 86 01:43:44 GMT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson >Concerning the story "Face of Evil" from the Tom Baker era: >...The point is that the Face could not have been the Fourth >Doctor's since he hadn't yet been to Leela's planet in that >incarnation. In the novelisation of the story by Terrance Dicks, it explains that the Doctor "slipped away" during "all of that business with the giant robot" (Baker's first episode, *Robot*), which would have taken no time at all in the TARDIS, and so no one would have noticed that he was gone. The reason he didn't remember reprogramming Xoanon was because he was so disoriented from his regeneration. Jessica ------------------------------ From: hadron!klr@caip.rutgers.edu (Kurt L. Reisler) Subject: Re: mixable Pan-Galactic Gargleblaster Date: 6 May 86 12:56:43 GMT After reading the recipes posted for making a Pan-Galactic Gargleblaster, it seems that most are trying for the "look" and not for the ground-zero effect. I have a recipe that I "stumbled" (:-}) on. It take a while to make it (6 months), but the effect is interesting. Take a fifth of good quality vodka, 90 proof or higher. Place 6 dried Szechuan hot peppers in the vodka and set it aside for at least 6 months. The peppers will turn pale and sink, and the vodka will turn slightly yellowish. Once the vodka has "developed", remove the peppers and pour half the vodka into a clean bottle. Mix this with an equal amount of good quality peppermint schnaps. An interesting variation is to use "gold schnaps" (has flakes of 23 carat gold foil floating in it). Close the bottled mixture and place it in the freezer for at least 4 hours. Serve in frozen liquor glases (i.e. keep them in the freezer too). Drink, carefully. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 86 14:22:08 edt From: James Turner Subject: T-shirt Nick Danger, Third Eye in T-Shirt Terror I had just finished my biggest case...Bud Light, as I recall, and I was settling down for the night, when I heard a knock at the door. ``It's open,'' I murmered, griting my teeth as steel-booted tap-dancers did a Fosse stage number inside my head. The door creaked open, and in walked six feet of blond beauty. Her eyes cut through the smoke-filled haze like lighthouse beacons, and her full, red lips had "kiss me" written all over them. ``Are you Nick Danger?'' she breathed at me. ``That's what the sign on the door says, sweetheart,'' I responded at my urbane best. Actually, it said "Al's Chinese Laundry", but I wasn't concerned with details like that right now. ``What's your problem?'' Suddenly, she was crying like the newborns down at the hospital. ``It's all so complicated, Mr. Danger.'' ``Call me Nick,'' I interjected. I reached under the pile of National Geographics I kept for the pictures of native women, and pulled out a stolen napkin I had on hand for leaky broads. She wiped her eyes, and continued her sob story. ``Mr. Danger, it's so horrible. It all started when I saw someone wearing a really nice-looking T-shirt. It was so nice, I just had to have one. But before I could ask them where they had gotten it, they were gone!'' ``Could you describe this shirt?'' ``Oh yes! It showed two people sitting in a spaceship control-room, reading SF-LOVERS. In the background, there was a spaceship heading straight for them, about to blow them up, but they didn't notice. It was white on blue, I think. Haynes Beefy-T.'' This chick had sharp eyes! ``Sister, I think I can help you. I pulled a pad of paper over, found a pencil hidding under my .38 ammo, and scribbled "Pipe Dream Associates; 329 Ward Street; Newton, MA; 02159". ``Here'', I said, handing the note to her, ``Just send these guys a check for $6.50, along with your address, and whether you want small, medium, large, or extra-large. They'll do the rest.'' ``Oh, Mr. Danger. How can I thank you?'' I leaned back in my chair and relaxed. Maybe this wasn't gonna be such a bad night after all. Disclaimers: 1) Any implied sexism is in Nick Danger's mind, and in no way represents that of the author. 2) Nick Danger is a trademark or copyright or somesuch of Firesign Theatre, used without permission (so sue me...). 3) Pipe Dream Associates will see no financial gain from this project (however, any 6 foot blonds in the neighborhood are free to drop in...). 4) This offer closes June 1, expected mailing date is June 30, in Nebraska, call collect, operators are waiting, now how much would you pay, best seller in Europe, AND IT EVEN MAKES JULIENES! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 86 14:22:08 edt From: James Turner Subject: New SF SIG News Flash: The General Electric consumer information service, GEnie, will soon have a Science Fiction and Fantasy SIG, moderated and hosted by your's truly. This SIG (or Roundtable, as they are called on GEnie), should be up later this month. I hope to include interviews with SF and Fantasy notables, as well as real time conferencing in the service. Disclaimers: The above does not represent an attempt to sell services or products. It is provided for informational purposes only. Your millege in California may vary. No salesman will call. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 May 86 0912-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #112 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 12 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 112 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Cherryh & Ellison & Hambly & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Moorcock (2 msgs) & Zelazny & Funny SF, Television - The New Twilight Zone, Miscellaneous - Origin of "filksong" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: lsuc!msb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Brader) Subject: Another Foundation novel Date: 9 May 86 04:42:24 GMT Isaac Asimov's 6th Foundation book, "Foundation and Earth", will be published this fall. This information comes from a friend at Doubleday, who adds that it will the 100th book of his that they will have published. This is all I know about it. But now I'll have to get around to reading my copy of "Robots and Empire"! Mark Brader ------------------------------ From: kalash@ingres.Berkeley.EDU.ARPA (Joe Kalash) Subject: Re: Cherryh portrait Date: 9 May 86 05:26:47 GMT cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa writes: > David Cherry (the 'h' on CJ's name is an attachment) is >beginning to become a success as a commercial SF artist. He got >breaks from Fantasia Press (in addition to the above, they did a >special edition of her two ]elf[ books, ? and THE TREE OF SWORDS >AND JEWELS, with illos by him) and is now getting First it is Phantasia Press, second they have put out (by Cherryh): Forty Thousand in Gehenna Cuckoo's Egg Chanur's Venture The Kif Strike Back Visible Light The last two have David Cherry covers. Neither The Tree of Swords and Jewels, nor Dreamstone have been done by Phantasia. Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ From: bucsb.bu.edu!boreas@caip.rutgers.edu (The Mad Tickle Monster) Subject: Re: Time is Money Date: 8 May 86 10:07:07 GMT meissner@dg_rtp.UUCP (Michael Meissner) writes: >colonel@ellie.UUCP (Col. G. L. Sicherman) writes: >>An old idea. I remember having seen it in an SF novel serialized >>in (F&SF?) in the 70's. It was about a planet where morality was >>enforced by surgically implanting remote-control death devices in >>newborns' brains. One person held the controls. Anybody remember >>it? I think it was nominated for some prize or other. >Sounds like "Die said the Ticktock Man" by Harlan Ellison. Unless I'm gravely mistaken, you mean "'Repent, Harlequin!' said the TikTok Man" which was indeed by Ellison. It was more of a medium-to-long (:-) short story, as I recall; at least, it fit into one side of a Waldenbooks casette when The Author did a reading of it (packaged with a reading of "A Boy and His Dog", I think). The tapes are fun, although I preferred reading the stories. Good story. "Jelly beans!" :*) Michael Justice BITNet: boreas%bucsb%bu-cs%csnet-relay.arpa@wiscvm ARPANet: boreas%bucsb%bu-cs%csnet-relay UUCP: ...!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas CSNET: boreas%bucsb%bu-cs ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 86 18:17:58 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: ISHMAEL About the girl who departed on the arm of a curly-haired man...space tramp.... Anybody see possibilities of Zaphod and Trillian (before he got the extra head) ? ------------------------------ From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: RAH Future History: The po' boy's collection Date: 7 May 86 17:39:36 GMT bryan@druhi.UUCP (BryanJT) writes: >I saw nothing in "Friday" to indicate any connection with any of >the other Future History stories. In fact, in many ways it is >inconsistent with the other stories (living artifacts, artificial >people, the particular sequence of planets being colonized, the >kind of spacecraft/power supply being used, etc.). It is, however, in the same universe as one of his earlier short stories (and damn! for the life of my I can't remember the title--and it was even mentioned here, quite recently, I think). You know--the one with "Kettle-Belly" Baldwin and the supermen. >Otherwise, I agree with you; the Future History consists of: > The Past Through Tomorrow > Time Enough for Love > I Will Fear No Evil (although just barely) > The Number of the Beast (the last couple of chapters) > >And even possibly (I haven't read it yet): > > The Cat Who Walks Through Walls ORPHANS OF THE SKY (or "Universe" + "Commonsense") is not collected in THE PAST THROUGH TOMORROW, although it is charted. pH ------------------------------ From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven Jones) Subject: Re: Re: Heinlein's Future History Date: 8 May 86 15:47:46 GMT >Could someone on the net please list what books are in this series, >and in what order they are in? ... According to the Future History Chart, which appears in most of the collections in which FH stories appear, the stories are, in order: Life-Line; "Let There Be Light"; (Word Edgewise); The Roads Must Roll; Blowups Happen; The Man Who Sold the Moon; Delilah & the Space Rigger; Space Jockey; Requiem; The Long Watch; Gentlemen, Be Seated; The Black Pits of Luna; "It's Great to be Back"; "--We Also Walk Dogs"; Ordeal in Space; The Green Hills of Earth; (Fire Down Below); Logic of Empire; (The Sound of His Wings); (Eclipse); (The Stone Pillow); "If This Goes On"; Coventry; Misfit; Universe [prologue]; Methuselah's Children; Universe; Commonsense. The stories named above in parentheses are stories RAH planned but never wrote. If you buy _The Past Through Tommorrow_ and _Orphans of the Sky_, you get all the stories he did write, except "Let There Be Light." But wait, there's more: you also get The Menace From Earth and Searchlight, stories which do not appear on The Future History Chart. "Let There Be Light" you can find in _The Man Who Sold the Moon_ (a collection which also includes the short story whose name is used as its title). If you get _TPTT_ and _OOTS_ and _TMWSTM_ then *don't* buy _Methuselah's Children_ or _The Green Hills of Earth_ as neither contains anything not found in the other three. *Do* buy _The Menace From Earth_ as it contains other non-Future History stories including "Year of the Jackpot" and "By His Bootstraps," which I consider two of RAH's best short stories. Since I've gone this far, I'll tell you about some collections of his other short stories: _Assignment in Eternity_ contains "Gulf," which would be of interest to anyone who {has|will} read _Friday_; "Elsewhen", which is RAH's first experiment with more-than-one time-dimension, as developed more fully in _The Number of the Beast_; "Lost Legacy"; and "Jerry Was a Man." _The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag_ a.k.a. _6_x_H_ (six by Heinlein) contains the title story; "The Man Who Travelled in Elephants"; "All You Zombies", a must-read for anyone who {has|will} read _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_; "They"; "Our Fair City"; and "And He Built a Crooked House." California patriots please note before flaming anyone that RAH is himself "The Hermit of Hollywood" mentioned in AHBACH. _Expanded Universe: The New Worlds of Robert A. Heinlein_ is a revised edition of _The Worlds of RAH_ which includes a whole mess of stories and RAH's commentary on the stories. "Solution Unsatisfactory," which Isaac Asimov claims as the first story to predict a nuclear stalemate, is one of these (read this if you're interested in the Chernobyl nuclear reactor accident). But the reason to buy this book is "Where To?" a.k.a. "Pandora's Box," a story RAH wrote in 1950, listing several predictions for the future. In 1965, in _TWORAH_, he added a whole mess of comments and some more predictions. In 1980, he added even more comments. _Waldo_ and _Magic, Inc._ contains "Waldo" and "Magic, Inc." For my next trick, I will post the definitive list of RAH's novels and detailing which characters and time-lines are shared between them. Prior to _TNotB_ this wouldn't have been very difficult, but as things stand now... don't hold your breath. S. Luke Jones ...ihnp4!mtung!slj ------------------------------ From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: Re: Eternal Champion Date: 7 May 86 19:27:38 GMT > In addition, his very earliest work is hard to come by: The Golden > Barge (written at the age of 17 and already including many of the > themes of the Eternal Champion) and the Kingdom of Spiders trilogy > (a set of books that haven't been mentioned yet on the net, and > which are definitely linked to the Eternal Champion cycle). I don't know about THE GOLDEN BARGE, but the "Kingdom of the Spiders" books (BARBARIANS OF MARS, BLADES OF MARS, and WARRIORS OF MARS) were originally issued under the name "Edward P. Bradbury" by Lancer Books, and may be found filed under that name in used book stores and such. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl (or ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl) ------------------------------ From: uvm-gen!haviland@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Haviland) Subject: Re: Moorcock and assoc'd. rock bands Date: 7 May 86 15:05:23 GMT In the same vein, a couple of Blue Oyster Cult songs, _Veteran_of_the_Psychic_Wars_ and _Black_Blade_ were cowritten by Moorcock. _Black_Blade_ seems to be about Elric, with lots of references to the sword controlling him and the like. I don't know if _Veteran_ is about any specific story, but it appears the the soundtrack to _Heavy_Metal_. Both songs can also be found on (I think) BOC's album _Cultosaurus_Erectus_. Good tunes, too. Thomas P. Haviland University of Vermont (802) 656-2540 USENET: decvax!dartvax!uvm-gen!uvm-cs!haviland CSNET: haviland%uvm@csnet-relay ------------------------------ Date: Fri 9 May 86 14:37:22-EDT From: Laurence Brothers Subject: AMBER news I phoned Arbor House, and the friendly receptionist there looked through their status reports on books in production and informed me that: BLOOD OF AMBER is now in production for a September release date. Apparently, GHOSTWHEEL is NOT the name of the next Amber book. I dunno, I like GHOSTWHEEL better than BLOOD as a title, the latter sounds more like a soap-opera title, or a Harlequin Romance.... Laurence ------------------------------ From: lpi!abc@caip.rutgers.edu (Anton Chernoff) Subject: Re: And Still More Funny/Humorous SF Date: 8 May 86 04:10:13 GMT I agree that "Astra & Flondrix" is one of the best sf-erotica books around. For blacker sf-porn, try Philip Jose Farmer's "Image of the Beast." Back to the topic... Here's a list of some of the better humorous SF that I've found over the years. Some of it may be out of print, but available at used book stores or at dealers' tables at SF conventions. Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat series: The Stainless Steel Rat The Stainless Steel Rat's Revenge The Stainless Steel Rat Saves the World The Stainless Steel Rat for President A Stainless Steel Rat is Born [Prequel, and not as funny] These are the story of Slippery Jim di Griz, the best thief in the galaxy. Lots of tongue in cheek and sarcastic commentary on governments and their ways. Harrison has done some other humorous works, notably the space operas Bill, the Galactic Hero Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers It helps to have read some "real" space opera (the old stuff, which these books and their ilk try to parody) to appreciate the parody, but anyone who knows the term BEM will enjoy them. Speaking of space opera, the works of E.E. "Doc" Smith are prerequisites to appreciation of the genre, in addition to being important contributions to the foundations of SF. I respect Doc's works, but mention it here because to 1986 eyes, it appears to be humorous as space opera. (It's not - it's the real thing. But it's fun to read!) Since we're on classics, several of Robert A. Heinlein's works, while being well plotted SF, are also funny: Podkayne of Mars The Rolling Stones Glory Road and others. All of RAH's older stuff is highly recommended. I reserve comment on his more recent works for another topic. Ron Goulart's work is uniformly amusing, but the quality is variable. Among the better and funnier are Suicide, Inc. Shaggy Planet Ghost Breaker Clockwork's Pirates What's Become of Screwloose? Goulart takes nothing seriously, and some plot tends to be sacrificed in the interest of comedy. I second the recommendation of David Gerrold's and Larry Niven's The Flying Sorcerers Read it carefully. It contains a lot of in-jokes for the benefit of us hard core SF fans. Pick out the people you know among the book's characters. Alan Dean Foster's Spellsinger series has a lot of humor, along with the humor that comes of long-developed characters. Spellsinger Hour of the Gate The Day of the Dissonance The Moment of the Magician The Paths of the Perambulator Unfortunately, by the 5th book the whole thing starts wearing thin. [Incidentally, many people underrate Foster because he does so many movie novelizations. His own original work tends to be quite good.] For those of a literary bent, try Marvin Kaye's The Incredible Umbrella The Amorous Umbrella wherein our hero get stuck, for instance, in Gilbert-and-Sullivan-land and sings asides to the reader which the other characters are obliged to ignore. Robert Sheckley has a lot of humorous SF in print. His newer works tend to be sort of new wave-ish (not really, but it's hard to describe). The older stuff, especially his short stories, are a real riot. Try People Trap Store of Infinity Can You Feel Anything? How can a pun-lover not adore Spider Robinson's Callahan stories? The best long-winded puns, coupled with a truly human storytelling ability, make these stories my favorite funny (and occasionally weepy (with joy)) SF: Callahan's Crosstime Saloon Time Travelers Strictly Cash Antinomy John Sladek write funny. Try his Mechasm Roderick Finally, though not exactly SF, Thorne Smith's works frequently show up on the SF racks in bookstores. They're light fantasy. You'll know them: Topper Topper Takes a Trip The Stray Lamb ... and many more Either you love them or you don't. Try one. Piers Anthony needs no further mention in this note. Suffice it to say that his short stories can be funny, too. Like "Up Schist Creek..." Keep this note alive. There's got to be more good funny SF. Anton (...!{harvard,linus}!axiom!lpi!abc) ------------------------------ From: styx!mcb@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch) Subject: Re: Save The Twilight Zone! Date: 9 May 86 05:50:27 GMT mcb@styx.UUCP (that's me!) writes: > I have learned from two reliable sources (a CBS affiliate's > program director and a SF writer with friends in the industry) > that CBS is still debating the future of The Twilight Zone. TZ is > off now, and will appear in reruns, I've been told, during the > summer season on Thursdays at 10 PM EDT/PDT, opposite reruns of > Hill Street Blues. CBS released its fall schedule yesterday, and The Twilight Zone has been renewed. Looks like WE DID IT!! :-) :-) It will be broadcast at 10 PM ET/PT on Saturday nights. I don't know how many episodes are in production, so it's still wise for TZ enthusiasts to write the network, preferably during the fall season. The current economic climate of network TV demands that shows can't get 2 or 3 seasons to "catch on", as was true as recently as a few years ago. Michael C. Berch ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA UUCP: {ihnp4,dual,sun}!lll-lcc!styx!mcb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 86 23:46:48 EDT From: CC004039%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: possible origin of word "filksong" When I first heard the word, I though it was "FILCHsong", not "FILKsong". The obvious origin being that though the lyrics of such songs are original, the tunes are almost always FILCHED from popular pieces of music! Mike McClennen ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 May 86 0930-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #113 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 12 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 113 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (14 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rlvd!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Woods) Subject: Re: Tolkien Date: 25 Apr 86 12:35:59 GMT From: raoul@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA >Since we're on the subject of Tolkien did anyone notice the LOTR >scene where Gandalf and company are about to enter through the >mountains of Moria. They come to a door set into the mountain with >elfish script adorning it. The script translated says in effect >"Say the elfish word for friend, mellon, to enter". Gandalf was >hard pressed to discover this fact and there were wolves very near >the company that were tracking them. Legolas, the elf, was part of >the company at this point but he never gave a word of help. I >never figured out why. Any ideas? This seems to be a hole in the >plot. First off, the script was written in High-elvish because it was done for the remnant of the High elves from Beleriand. Legolas came from Mirkwood and was not a high elf, it would be reasonable to assume he would be less versed in High-elvish than, say, Aragorn, who had closer associations with Lothlorien and Rivendell. However, the problem was more subtle than being able to read the sign. The script actually said "Say friend and enter", but Gandalf mis-understood its meaning and translated it "Speak friend and enter". Thus he was sent off on the wrong track, trying to guess what the password was, rather than reading it from the sign. This sort of confusion in translation between very different languages is common because there is rarely a one-to-one mapping of words. Tolkein, being a linguist, would be well aware of this sort of thing and exploited well. Mike Woods. UK JANET: mike@uk.ac.rl.vd UUCP: ..!mcvax!ukc!rlvd!mike ------------------------------ From: adt@ukc.ac.uk (A.D.Thomas) Subject: Re: Tolkein - Language question Date: 5 May 86 11:52:41 GMT olsen@ll-xn.UUCP writes: >The recent discussion of Wizards in Lord of the Rings reminds me of >a passage in LOTR that I've wondered about for some time. In the >orc-tower of Cirith Ungol, Snaga tells Shagrat > > "...There's a great fighter about, one of those > bloody-handed Elves, or one of the filthy _tarks_." > >I've speculated that "tark" is a corruption of "istari", and Snaga >is therefore suggesting that the 'great fighter' may be a Wizard. >Does anyone know if this interpretation is correct? _Tark_, explained Tolkien in one of the appendices, is derived from the word Tarkil meaning "Man of Gondor". Tony Thomas adt.ukc.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 May 86 18:39 EST From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Tolkien "magic" Just a short digression (and forgive me if a million other sf-lovers post something similar...) Tolkien "magic" is often less apparent and specific than most other fantasy magic. For instance (as someone mentioned) the shape-changing is hardly literal; it was more of an atmosphere created (for example, when Gandalf wanted to impress on Bilbo the importance of giving up the Ring in the one tense scene at the beginning of _Fellowship_). The only specific magic I can think of are Gandalf's fireworks and the invisibility the Ring confers. The other magic is much more ephemeral, consisting mostly of animatistic forces. In fact, some of the "magic" in Tolkien can be likened to things we believe in, such as "charisma", "selling power", etc. nj ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 86 06:46 CDT From: MSgt Robert L. Stevenson Subject: Re: Tolkien (The Las for a while, I hope) Now I enjoy LotR as much as the next person, maybe more, but let's give it a rest for a minute. I think it has been discussed (and cussed) enough for a while. I mean, a whole issue devoted to nothing but Tolkien? I am sure there is enough material out there to warrant disucssion on many other books/stories/movies/etc. Steve ------------------------------ From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Tolkien (Gandalf and the entrance to Moria) Date: 7 May 86 18:33:01 GMT CS.MCGRATH@R20.UTEXAS.EDU writes: > As for Legalos, he was a young wood elf, and they have their own >elvish dialect. He may only have had a passing acquaintance with >the High-Elvish dialect inscribed on the door -- if I remember my >dates correctly, that high Elvish script would have been written >MILLENIA before Gandalf and company made it there. Actually the language on the door was Grey Elvish, or Sindarin, not High Elvish! The lettering *was* borrowed from High Elvish though, albeit with considerable modification. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ From: ptsfd!djo@caip.rutgers.edu (Dan'l Oakes) Subject: Re: Dwarves Date: 7 May 86 23:21:40 GMT Regarding dwarf-maidens: In the appendices to LOTR, the Creator and Final Authority states that dwarf maids were rarely seen by non-Khazad; that they rarely travelled outside their homes; that there were in any case never many of them (about one third of the total population); that some of _them_ never married; that only one dwarf-maid is mentioned by name in the Red Book; and that, when they did travel abroad (no pun intended!), they dressed as the males of the species and were not noticed by non-Khazad. I hope this clears up matters a bit. Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_atrh@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas Richard Holtz) Subject: Re: Tolkein - Language question Date: 4 May 86 14:18:11 GMT olsen@ll-xn.ARPA (Jim Olsen) writes: >I've speculated that "tark" is a corruption of "istari", and Snaga >is therefore suggesting that the 'great fighter' may be a Wizard. >Does anyone know if this interpretation is correct? A nice guess, and it would make sense, but unfortunately it isn't true. According to J. E. A. Tyler's _A_New_Tolkien_Companion_ (St. Martins Press, New York, 1979, p. 552): Tark See following entry. Tarkil The original (as opposed to translated) name given in the Common Speech (the Westron) to a member of the race of Gondor. It appears to be a worn-down form of the Quenya word _Tarcil_. Note: the epithet _tark_, used by some tribes of Orcs, to mean a Man of Gondor, was doubtless a further debased version of _tarkil_. Used without permission. Therefore, _tarks_ refers to something that orcs hate as much as they do Istari, but have a great deal more contact with (generally at the end of a _tark's_ sword). Tom Holtz ------------------------------ From: watnot!jrsheridan@caip.rutgers.edu (James R. Sheridan) Subject: Re: Tom Bombadil Date: 6 May 86 17:57:03 GMT Cargo.PD@HI-MULTICS.ARPA writes: >hope to get some definitive answers to the nature and origin of Tom >Bombadil. He plays a part in LoTR, where he rescues the hobbits >from Old Man Willow. He is even mentioned in one of the councils >at Rivendel as a potential holder of the One Ring. (As I recall, >he took it from Frodo, put it on, and DID'NT become invisible, a >very good trick.) He is mentioned in other things from JRRT, but I >don' recall him ever being EXPLAINED. Can someone enlighten me? Well, I can give my two cents worth anyway.... As far as I understood it, Tom has been there since the world began. I would assume that he is a creation of Iluvatar that was not fully explained to the Valar (remember Tolkien said that the entire plan and details of the Earth were not all made clear to them...some things were purposely left unmentioned ). The reason the Ring had no effect is that he was there before it came into existence and because he is not really a part of the world that it affects. He has his section of land that he calls his and when you enter it, the rules change. Anyway, that seems like a reasonable explanation....anything wrong with what I've said anybody???? James R. Sheridan Faculty of Mathematics University of Waterloo UUCP : {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,utzoo,clyde}!watmath!watnot!jrsheridan CSNET : jrsheridan%watnot@waterloo.CSNET ARPA : jrsheridan%watnot%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.ARPA ------------------------------ From: Chris McMenomy Subject: Re: So much for writing without a reference.... Date: Wed, 07 May 86 13:12:54 PDT Mea culpa! I stand corrected on Maiar, Thangorodrim (I always read it as ThangoroBADrim, after all, it was a bad place) and that Yavanna didn't create Ents, but sponsored them. I used Morgoth rather than Melkor because the elvish name is more familiar --to me, at least--, and I couldn't remember whether it was Melkor or Melkur. Tol Eressea is not, strictly speaking, part of Middle Earth after the fall of Numenor, but it is part of 'Earth', the created world taken as a whole, and elves do not "leave the circles of the world" as men do. I don't have a source (will forward when I find it) but Froda is, I think, correct as it stands as a Merovingian name, although I admit I may have been thinking of the original hobbit version of the name. I apologize for the errors; my books were at home (I know, I know, I should have waited and double- checked), and I haven't gotten all the way through "Unfinished Tales" yet. There is a lot about Turim in there, and after "The Silmarillion" I didn't think that I could face another hundred pages on the Norse tragic hero theme. As for the "completeness" of Tolkien's world, I think it rests on his conception of the act of creation -- or creativity, in man. Read the "Silmarillion" again and note the contrasts between Aule's creation of the Dwarves, Feanor's creation of the Silmarils, and Yavanna's creation of the two trees. The created thing assumes something of the nature of the creator, so much so that there is no possibility of recreating the object if it is destroyed. But a creation cannot remain a possession: Aule gives up the dwarves, Yavanna mourns but does not avenge the destruction of the trees; Feanor starts a destructive war to regain possession of the Silmarils but only succeeds in destroying much of Middle Earth. Somewhere in the writing, as an author, Tolkien managed to distance himself from his created world so that it was not merely an extension of his alter egos, but stood on its own, an integral thing. He does this even in the style of the book: the narrative voice is almost pure; except in the Hobbit, Tolkien rarely intrudes on the story as an omniscient narrator; he describes only what his characters would know and see or think; he is only the recorder, not the creator of these incidents. He is not manipulating the reader for polemical ends, as do people who write stories with a point; he is simply telling a story. And that is very hard to do. ------------------------------ From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Gandalf Date: 7 May 86 16:58:26 GMT jrsheridan@watnot.UUCP (James R. Sheridan) writes: >Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM writes: >>were Ainur (Tolkien's mythology equivalent of angels or saints. >>Sauron was one, as well, and, I believe, the Balrogs) so had the >>power to > >The Balrogs were Ainur corrupted by Melkor and/or(?) Sauron if my >memory serves me correctly. I think this was done after Melkor >made his citadel in the north. I forget the name of >that...Ang(something).... Angband, the Hell of Iron. Also, by that time nobody used "Melkor" anymore, just "Morgoth". By the way, there seems to be some confusion among some people in this group--Ainur are the "angels", whom Iluvatar first made; the Valar ("archangels", if you wish) are the leaders of those who descended into Arda (Middle-earth), of whom the rest are Maiar. pH ------------------------------ From: uvacs!dam@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Montuori) Date: 5 May 86 13:23:20 GMT Subject: Re: (Tolkien) Inscription on door From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI >why wouldn't Gandalf have simply spoken the inscripted words aloud, >either while reading them initially or while explaining the >situation to the others in the party, and, by so doing, said the >word "mellon" (I believe that was it?) and so triggered the door's >opening? Several members of the party (Sam, Merry, Pippin, maybe others?) didn't speak Sindarin. Seems to me that it wouldn't have occurred to Gandalf, Legolas or Aragorn to read the inscription aloud in Sindarin, since the party had been using Westron (Common) from the time it left Rivendell. Dave Montuori (Dr. ZRFQ) UVa CS dept, C'ville, Va. (Central Virginia State Home for Professional Students) CSNET: dam@virginia UUCP: ...!decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!dam ...!houxm!burl!icase!^ ...!seismo!allegra!^ ...!ihnp4!cbosgd!^ ------------------------------ From: cvl!bhaskar@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Gandalf. Date: 8 May 86 16:11:56 GMT It would be impossible for me to personally thank all of you who replied to my question regarding Gandalf. So, let me use the net to send one BIG collective THANK YOU. I carelessly used "The Hobbits" when, of course, it was "The Hobbit" I was referring to. My apologies are overdue. I certainly plan to read "The Silmarillion" which many of you referred me to. ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 86 21:36:00 EDT From: "SHIRE::LISA" Subject: Re: Tom Bombadil >All this discussion of Gandalf has brought a remarkable response. >Now I hope to get some definitive answers to the nature and origin >of Tom Bombadil. He plays a part in LoTR, where he rescues the >hobbits from Old Man Willow. He is even mentioned in one of the >councils at Rivendel as a potential holder of the One Ring. (As I >recall, he took it from Frodo, put it on, and DIDN'T become >invisible, a very good trick.) He is mentioned in other things >from JRRT, but I don' recall him ever being EXPLAINED. Can someone >enlighten me? In regard to the question on Tom Bombadil, I recall seeing in a letter from Tolkien that Bombadil was a character he created long before he wrote the Hobbit [See the Tolkien Reader, "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil"] in poetry. He incorporated him into the Middle-earth mythos as an intentional enigma to scholars like us. "And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)." _letters of JRRT_, H. Carpenter, letter #144 Lisa Anne Mende ARPA: mende@aim.rutgers.edu UUCP: caip!aim!mende ------------------------------ From: oliveb!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barb Jernigan) Subject: Re: Tolkien "magic" Date: 8 May 86 19:10:57 GMT From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU > ...For instance (as someone mentioned) the shape-changing is > hardly literal... Au contraire! I know of at least one instance, in _The Hobbit_ where it was most certainly literal: Beorn. It's never exactly clear whether he can choose his form or is a werebear (oh, gods, that sounds terrible, aick!), but he certainly could shape-change. And a great deal of magic was flashing around when Gandalf faced off on a hilltop with the riders in _Fellowship_. Frodo was wounded by a magic sword/dagger. The river protecting Rivendell (sorry, the name refuses to index)(have to get a new brain-database, that's all) certainly did a magic number on the Nazgul. And half a dozen other instances flare to mind. You'd best read again, I think. Admittedly, Magic is not omnipresent in LoTR, but it's most certainly present. Barb ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 13 May 86 0825-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #114 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 12 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 114 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Hambly & Harrison & Kurtz & McKiernan & Moorcock & Sturgeon & Recommendations & Codex Seraphinianus & Story Request Answered, Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide Quote Request, Television - Star Trek & The New Twilight Zone, Miscellaneous - Vocabulary and Language ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: leadsv!sas@caip.rutgers.edu (Scott Stewart) Subject: Re: Blue Adept Question? Date: 8 May 86 16:21:45 GMT I need some help from all you net.sf-lovers addicts. The other day I was trying to recall the various forms of magic that each of the Adepts used on Phaze (from the Blue Adept series by Piers Anthony). I got my books stored away currently and don't want to go through a lot of hassle trying to figure it out, so I asking for this info from all of you. I remember some info, which I present below, please respond with any clarifications or corrections. Black - Magic Powers were in creating thing from lines. Yellow - Created magic Potions. Brown - Created Golems. Orange - Magic Powers included the control of Plants. White - ? Green - ? Red - Created magic Amulets and last and most Blue - Magic summoned through verse. The more musical, the more powerful. Another question, did Stiles (Blue) need to play music before he voices his musical incantation? Also, what other types of magic were there? Thank for any help, Scott A. Stewart LMSC - Sunnyvale ihnp4!rtgvax!leadsv!sas teklds!cae780!leadsv!sas ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!flynn@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC429) Subject: Re: ISHMAEL, by Barbara Hambly Date: 8 May 86 14:47:54 GMT From: Garrett Fitzgerald >Greetings and felicitations! If anyone here has read the >afore-mentioned book, could you tell me if I missed anything? It is >primarily a Star Trek book, but about half of it is set in the >"Here Come the Brides" universe. Spock also makes a reference to >being "shanghaied by a shipload of Hokas," who I just found out >exist also. Have I missed any other references? ...and the other half seems to be Dr Who! I counted at least 3 references, including one to a race of stagnant time-travellers from the "galaxy of Kasteroborous" [sic], another to a shabbily-dressed hobo and his female "assistant" and the third to an exotic-looking space merchant complete with glamorous female accompaniment. Anybody see any more..? Perhaps a metropolitan Police Box in 19th century San Francisco, or baby-shaped "jelly beans"... Anthony Flynn. P.S. What's a 'Hoka'..? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 May 86 21:23:02 EDT From: CC004100%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Harrison I've just completed the first four Stainless Steel Rat books, by Harry Harrison. Are there any more? What are they? Can someone post titles of other works of his? Thanks! Jeremy Bornstein CC004100@BROWNVM ------------------------------ From: warwick!req@caip.rutgers.edu (Russell Quin) Subject: Review: Kurtz/The King's Justice Date: 9 May 86 18:04:18 GMT [there are spoilers for those who've not read the earlier books in the series - the first in the series is called `Deryni Rising'] If you liked the first seven books in Katherine Kurtz' `Deryni' series, you have probably been waiting for the eighth, _The_King's_Justice_, as eagerly as I had. You probably won't be disappointed, either. I wasn't. The book is about Kelson as he grows into manhood and develops the sense of dispassionate justice that a King needs. The war against Meara and the anti-deryni fanatics of Archbishop Loris provides a rich background, with the high level of detail and accuracy that one has come to expect from Kurtz. Plotwise, the book is no stronger than those earlier in the series. But somehow that never seems to matter. This is Historical Fantasy at its best, with strong, well-developed characters and a clear writing-style. I finished it in an evening, with the help of a box of Kleenex -- the latest three books seem to have each been more harrowing than the last. Certainly there is never the security that important characters won't be killed off... Publisher (in the UK):Arrow Books, London (printed by Century), 1986, ISBN: 0-09-945879-5; 337pp (paperback) incl. two-page map, index of characters (welcomed!), index of places (also welcomed!) and Partial lineage of the Haldane Kings. Publisher (in the US):Ballantine Books. I got my (UK) copy from Forbidden Planet in London; Andromeda (Birmingham) also have it, and it will probably be in most English bookshops soon. I have no idea about availability elsewhere. Russell ARPA req%warwick.uucp%daisy.warwick.ac.uk@ucl-cs.arpa EARN/BITNET req%warwick.uucp%UK.AC.WARWICK.DAISY@AC.UK JANET req%warwick.uucp@uk.ac.warwick.daisy UUCP seismo!mcvax!ukc!warwick!req (req@warwick.UUCP) I cannot reply to ARPA mail -- please include a BITNET or UUCP path. ------------------------------ From: cbuxc!dim@caip.rutgers.edu (Dennis McKiernan) Subject: McKiernan: On Prequels, Sequels, Forerunners Date: 6 May 86 17:55:10 GMT While recovering from a shattered left femur, for my own amusement, and to stay sane, I wrote a tale of the quest of the Dwarves to recover Moria. Doubleday loved it. The estate of JRRT did not. Doubleday then asked me to make the tale my own, to provide a new history, geography, background, etc., pulling it out of Tolkien's world and into a world of my own. Yet I had to keep the same story: Dwarves quest to recover a lost homeland. After another year, I had revised the tale. Now it was set in a world I called Mithgar. The revised tale is titled "The Silver Call". While awaiting Doubleday's reaction to "Silver", I got to thinking about that background, that history, and decided that it, too, would make an exciting story, and so I began a new tale. I was about half way through the first draft when Doubleday called and said that they liked the revision and that they had slotted "Silver" in their publication schedule. I replied that I was at work on the "prequel" to "Silver" and would they hold off publication until they had a chance to look at the manuscript, and if they liked it, then let's publish the stories in the correct chronological order. Doubleday agreed, and I soon finished the prequel...called, of course, "The Iron Tower". I sent "Iron" to Doubleday; they liked the tale and agreed that it should indeed be published first. For business reasons, Doubleday divided "Iron" into a trilogy (I would have much rather seen it as a single book, for that's the way I wrote it). Doubleday published "Iron" in hardback, and a year or so later Signet published it in paperback. And the "sequel", "The Silver Call", is rolling off Doubleday's presses at this very moment, but Doubleday has split the tale into two books this time. So, "Silver" will come out as a "duology". And therein lies the tale of two tales: The Iron Tower: Book 1: The Dark Tide Book 2: Shadows of Doom Book 3: The Darkest Day The Silver Call: Book 1: Trek to Kraggen-cor Book 2: The Brega Path ("Silver" available in Doubleday hardback in May and June, 1986, respectively) (just had to get in a plug) Incidentally, I want to thank all of you who have commented both publically on the net, and privately by e-mail, and have passed on your opinions to me concerning "Iron"; I look forward to hearing from you about "Silver". If anyone else wants to hop in here, feel free. Dennis L. McKiernan ------------------------------ From: magic!thain@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Eternal Champion Date: 9 May 86 20:38:34 GMT pete@andromeda.RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Farabaugh) writes: > I have read the whole cycle exept for these three because I > haven't been able to find the first one (The Eternal Champion). > If anyone can tell me where I can get a copy they can have what's > behind door number 2. > > One of our fine publishing companies (I can't remember which > one) made a brilliant move by rereleasing the second volume but > not the first. A lot of Moorcock's work is being reprinted, but the Eternal Champion is one that seems to always miss the list, (Snarl! Grumble!). I've been haunting old bookstores, I suggest you do same. Anyone else with a better idea on where these three could be found? Happy Trails, Glenn thain@decwrl.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 May 86 21:23:02 EDT From: CC004100%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Sturgeon Is there any relationship between Sturgeon's _The_Cosmic_Rape_ and his collection, mentioned recently here, _To_Marry_Medusa_? I've read the first, and its title could have (perhaps should have) been something like the second. Jeremy Bornstein CC004100@BROWNVM ------------------------------ From: ritcv!jaw7509@caip.rutgers.edu (John White) Subject: Re: Would you recommend a book for me to read? Date: 9 May 86 19:52:00 GMT larrabee@decwrl.UUCP (Tracy Larrabee) writes: >Fantasy and Sci-fi I hate: >Anything that's about machines and science only and not their >affect on people Well, I must say, you've got rather eclectic taste. I wouldn't throw many sci-fi writers in with men who write classics. I'd make an exception for Tolkien and Herbert for writing 'Dune', though. Judging from the last line of your note (alone) I can recommend this book. It is my favorite book of all time and is a general recommendation to anyone. "Lucifer's Hammer" - Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle Thank you, John White P.S. Niven and Pournelle have a new book: "Footfall". I haven't gotten too far into it as yet thus I cannot recommend it (although I'm sure it's gonna be great.) ------------------------------ From: cc@ucla-cs.ARPA (UCLA Computer Club) Subject: Re: _Codex_Seraphinianus_ Date: 8 May 86 06:52:53 GMT I got my copy at Crown Books (Boo!!! Hissss!!!) for $30.00 (Ooooh! Aaaah!). I have seen this book priced at $70-80 in the used-book stores, so when I saw $30.00 (actually $29.?? ;-) I bought it immediately. Do not even think of ever seeing it in paper-back!!! It is printed on textured paper, in a multitude of colors (the PUBLISHING QUALITY is PHENOMENAL) with too many pages, too large to make a convenient paper-back... But buy it if you see it in a used-book store at a reasonable price (<$40). If you love it from the first moment you leaf through it - you will not be sorry! Oleg Kiselev ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 86 15:17 CET From: Subject: Re :sentient being in computer simulation I think the story you're after is Simulachron-3 by Daniel F. Galouye (not sure about the spelling) Michael Maisack ------------------------------ From: dcc1!bingaman@caip.rutgers.edu (George C. Bingaman) Subject: Seeking quote from HGTTG NPR version Date: 9 May 86 00:00:59 GMT Greetings, I am seeking a quote from the radio version of _The_Hitchhikers_Guide_to_the Galaxy_ that has been broadcast over NPR in the USA. The quote is set up by a discussion (by the guide?) about the never-to-be-sufficiently-damned complaint/customer service department of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation. There is a fairly short discussion of the connection between the SCC slogan "Share and Enjoy" and the expression "Stick your Head in a Pig." Following the discussion, a product of SCC breaks into a song which begans "Share and enjoy, share and enjoy. Go through life with a plastic boy or girl by your side..." and ends with "...and we'll tell you `go stick your head in a pig'". In between these phrases, the machine, in true SCC fashion, malfunctions. The voice speeds up and becomes distorted. Did anyone out there in net-land manage to tape this particular episode and extract the lyrics? If so, I would dearly love a copy. In fact, the text from the beginning of the discussion thru the end of the song would be greatly appreciated, but I don't want to be greedy. Thanks in advance, George C. Bingaman DeKalb Community College 2101 Womack Rd. Dunwoody (Atlanta) Ga. 30338 +1 404 393 3300 x239 {hplabs|seismo|ulysses|allegra|cbosgd|ihnp4}!{gatech|akgua}\ !dcc1!bingaman ------------------------------ From: wales@ucla-cs.ARPA (Rich Wales) Subject: Re: Operation Annihilate (was Quotes) Date: 9 May 86 05:37:51 GMT shark@unirot.UUCP (chris rhodes) writes: >Anybody know where the planet scenes in [Operation: Annihilate!] >were filmed? Methinks UCLA. Let me grab this one *real* quick . . . Most of the planetside scenes in this one were filmed at TRW in Redondo Beach (south of Los Angeles). The exterior still shot of Kirk's brother's lab (with the rectangular vertical columns and the mosaic along the top) is the northwest corner of Schoenberg Hall at UCLA (the music building); note that the picture in the finished episode is a mirror image of the building as seen in real life. Rich Wales UCLA Computer Science Department +1 213-825-5683 531 Boelter Hall Los Angeles, California 90024 wales@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU ...!(ucbvax,ihnp4)!ucla-cs!wales ------------------------------ From: sftig!ecc@caip.rutgers.edu (E.C.Chisholm) Subject: Re: Save The Twilight Zone! Date: 9 May 86 04:23:10 GMT > I have learned from two reliable sources (a CBS affiliate's > program director and a SF writer with friends in the industry) > that CBS is still debating the future of The Twilight Zone. well, it seems that the future of TW has been decided and it is a soft spoken yes! My local newspaper has reported that TW along with other shows like the Equalizer and Mike Hammer, have been tentatively renewed for next season. CBS says that these shows' survival depend on how well they do next season in a new time slot. TW and Mike Hammer have been scheduled for Saturday at 9 and 10pm respectively. The Equalizer remains the same and Magnum P.I. has been scheduled opposite Moonlighting. Ed. Chisholm ------------------------------ Date: Sun 11 May 86 00:37:08-EDT From: LINDSAY@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: orichalks, and chalkos == bronze The island of Cyprus was the Mediterranean source of copper, and it is believed that the island's name derives from this trade. I mention this, not to advance our collective scholarship, but to illustrate how the reader's ordinary vocabulary touches upon the strangely familiar words in Wolfe's "Book of the New Sun"/"Shadow of the Torturer". I find that it gives an evocative power, and I find his prose beautiful. Wolfe is not first to play these games, of course. Tolkien's "Mordor" is perhaps an old pronunciation of "murder", probably Germanic. Vance's forests are populated by erbs, grues, deodands and leucomorphs, and his swamps contain rat's-lettuce and throttlehemp. A grue is no doubt gruesome: a white shape sounds scary enough; and deodand turns out to be an archaic word, referring to a thing used in a murder, and presented to the Church. I guess I haven't figured out erbs yet. Literature is not always something that can be read aloud: for example, puns can be made with spelling. I am told that this divergence of the written and the spoken has been carried much further in French than in English. But notice, Tolkien is not to be read, nor is it to be heard. It is to be spoken, and the words are to be rolled on the tongue, and tasted, intoned, given rhythm and dramatics. Try these: Galadriel. Lothlorien. Almery, in the Land of the Falling Wall. Mazirian, wearing his live boots, casting the Spell of Forlorn Encystment. And for the person who wanted funny SF: try Lafferty, with his hirsute logic, and his closing lines: "Oh, no, no!" Valery forbade. "Not again. That way is rump of skunk and madness." Don Lindsay Tartan Laboratories ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 13 May 86 0847-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #115 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 13 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 115 Today's Topics: Books - Bayley & Farmer & Harrison & Moorcock (3 msgs) & Powers & Schenk & Sturgeon & Story Requests Answered (2 msgs), Television - Colossus: The Forbin Project, Miscellaneous - New York Convention Report ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 May 86 02:45:06 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: One-shot (?) authors (Barrington Bayley) From: jbvb@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (James B. VanBokkelen) > I have two books (bought a couple of years ago) that I liked, but > I haven't seen anything more from their authors. > > 2) _The Zen Gun_, by Barrington Bayley... Bayley has written at least a dozen and a half books, I'd say, more than I'd care to list right now. Most of the US editions have been published by Ace or DAW. Some of his books have been published in the UK, but not the US. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 86 19:51:27 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Farmer's pseudo-bios and Kilgore Trout From: unirot!halloran (Bob Halloran) > It was my understanding that 'Venus' was written by Philip Jose > Farmer, shortly followed by his pseudo-biographies of various 30's > pulp heroes such as 'Tarzan Alive'. Aside from the fact that Tarzan was not a 30's pulp hero (though some of the books did extend into and beyond the 30's and were published in the pulps), there are two points I must make: (1) There was only one other pseudo-biography, DOC SAVAGE: HIS APOCALYPTIC LIFE. (2) VENUS ON THE HALF-SHELL was written *after*, not before, the biographies. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 86 19:56:27 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Harry Harrison From: CC004100%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Jeremy Bornstein) > I've just completed the first four Stainless Steel Rat books, by > Harry Harrison. Are there any more? What are they? Can someone > post titles of other works of his? Thanks! It depends on what you consider "the first four books". There are six books altogether, but the first three later appeared in an omnibus. The entire series is: THE ADVENTURES OF THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT [1977] THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT [1961] THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT'S REVENGE [1970] THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT SAVES THE WORLD [1972] THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT WANTS YOU! [1979] THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT FOR PRESIDENT [1982] A STAINLESS STEEL RAT IS BORN [1985] He has more other novels than I care to list. But among the more well-known and/or better ones are: THE BEST OF HARRY HARRISON 1976 collection BILL, THE GALACTIC HERO 1965 THE DEATHWORLD TRILOGY 1974 DEATHWORLD [1960] DEATHWORLD 2 [1964] DEATHWORLD 3 [1968] MAKE ROOM! MAKE ROOM! 1966 PLANET OF THE DAMNED 1962 STAR SMASHERS OF THE GALAXY RANGERS 1973 THE TECHNICOLOR^(R) TIME^(R) MACHINE 1967 TWO TALES AND EIGHT TOMORROWS 1965 collection WAR WITH THE ROBOTS 1962 collection --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 86 00:34:33 GMT From: ihuxl!gandalf@caip.rutgers.edu (Schurman) Subject: Who really wrote the Oswald Bastable novels gandalf@ihuxl.UUCP (Schurman) writes: >>The OSWALD BASTABLE novels (in order) >>1. The Warlord of the Air >>2. The Land Leviathan >>3. The Steel Tsar >> >samson@h-sc2.UUCP (Samson) writes: > >I was once informed that these novels were written, not by the >Michael Moorcock who wrote all the Eternal Champion books, but by >his grandfather, or father, or some older male relative who had the >same name. > >Is this true, or do these books actually link to the Eternal >Champion series? Moorcock writes, as an introduction to _The Warlord of the Air_ ... I never met my grandfather Michael Moorcock and knew very little of him until my grandmother's death last year when I was given a box of his papers by my father. "These seem to be more in your line than mine," he said. "I didn't know we had another scribbler in the family." Most of the papers were diaries, the beginnings of essays and short stories, some conventional Edwardian poetry - and a typewritten manuscript which, without further comment, we publish here, perhaps a little later than he would have hoped. Sounds pretty legitimate, doesn't it? But read on. In the introduction to _The Land Leviathan_ Moorcock writes... My grandfather, who died relatively young after he had volunteered for service in the Great War, became increasingly secretive and misanthropic in his last years, so that the discovery of a small steel safe amongst his effects was unsurprising and aroused no curiosity whatsoever in his heirs who, finding that they could not unlock it (no key ever came to light), simply stored it away with his papers and forgot about it. [... Eventually Mr. Moorcock (the present day author) finds the safe and gets it open. Inside he finds some notes in a handwriting different from his grandfathers. ...] ...these notes were Bastable's own. Here written in his hand, was an account of his experiences after he had left my grandfather... Getting a bit far-fetched now, but still possible. However In the introduction to _The Steel Tsar_ Moorcock says that when he remarked in a concluding note to _The Land Leviathan_ that he hoped Una Persson (a time travelng character in the book) would visit him someday he was being ironic. But he says Una Persson did visit him, shortly after the publication of ~TLL~. He also says she continued to visit him and that they had many interesting discussions - he especially enjoyed the gossip from the end of time. Eventually she brings him fresh memoirs from Bastable, which he claims he edited into ~TST~. From this I conclude that either A) Mr. Moorcock wants us to play a moderately fun game called "Let's pretend these stories really happened", much like the Sherlockians do with the Conan Doyle stories. or B) Mr. Moorcock is a loony. But then I think rain is wet, so who am I to say. Happy reading, Ralph Schurman ihnp4!ihuxl!gandalf ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 86 19:52:21 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Moorcock (TIME OF THE HAWKLORDS) From: reed!ellen (Ellen Eades) > I read a (truly bad) Moorcock book called _Time of the Hawklords_ > about ten years ago; it was loosely based on the rock group > Hawkwind, and I don't think it connected overtly with anything > else he's written. I think it's now out of print. Small loss. Actually, Moorcock did *not* write TIME OF THE HAWKLORDS, though he is erroneously co-credited. His "co-author", Michael Butterworth wrote the book alone, based on an idea by Moorcock. The publishers (both British and American) obviously felt that Moorcock's name on the by-line would help sell more books. The sequel was properly credited to Butterworth alone. There was supposed to be a third novel, LEDGE OF DARKNESS, but I'm not sure if it was ever published. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 86 02:48:43 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Moorcock (graphic novel) From: andromeda!pete (Peter Farabaugh) > Everyone seems to have missed part of the cycle: > > The Sword of Heaven, The Flowers of Hell > > It was a marvel graphic novel written by Moorcock as the third > volume to the Erikose/Urlick/John Daker series. (1) It was not a "Marvel" graphic novel. This was published long before Marvel started publishing graphic novels. It was packaged by Byron Preiss for HEAVY METAL and distributed by Simon & Schuster. (2) It was *not* written by Moorcock, but by the artist, Howard Chaykin (writer/artist of the comics AMERICAN FLAGG! and the recent SHADOW), based on a plot by Moorcock. Moorcock does, however, consider it the third "novel" in the John Daker series. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 86 04:34:38 GMT From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: Powers, Blaylock, & Wm Ashbless gandalf@ihuxl.UUCP (Schurman) writes: >The quote from William Ashbless that leads off _The Drawing of the >Dark_ couldn't be more appropriate. (If but we Christians have our >beer, nothing's to fear.) It's so appropriate that I'm tempted to >think that > >Has anyone read anything else with William Ashbless as a character? The Sky Discrowned (Power's first novel) mentions Ashbless. Presumably Powers or Blaylock invented him. Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 86 02:43:00 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: One-shot (?) authors (Hilbert Schenck) From: jbvb@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (James B. VanBokkelen) > I have two books (bought a couple of years ago) that I liked, but > I haven't seen anything more from their authors. > > 1) _Wave Rider_ by Hilbert Schenk... Hilbert Schenk has written a number of stories for the sf magazines, mostly F&SF, over the last 10 years. Aside from WAVE RIDER, he has had two more books published, both novels from Pocket/Timescape Books: (1) AT THE EYE OF THE OCEAN [1981] and (2) A ROSE FOR ARMAGEDDON [1982]. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 86 19:56:50 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Theodore Sturgeon From: CC004100%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Jermemy Bornstein) > Is there any relationship between Sturgeon's _The_Cosmic_Rape_ and > his collection, mentioned recently here, _To_Marry_Medusa_? I've > read the first, and its title could have (perhaps should have) > been something like the second. THE COSMIC RAPE was expanded from the title story of the collection after its original appearance (GALAXY, Aug 1958). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 86 19:48:56 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Who wrote this? (''Dawn'') From: bentley!kwh (Karl W. Z. Heuer) > Btw, while writing the above I tried to find ["Dawn"] so I could > fill in the author's name. Unfortunately, it appeared in Analog > in 1981, and I didn't subscribe until 1982 (I read the older > issues at the library). Does anyone know who wrote this? (Egad, > we're almost back to the original query!) Yes, Dean McLaughlin. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 86 02:31:35 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: DAYSTAR AND SHADOW From: msudoc!arlow (Steve arlow) > I just recieved a recommendation for a book entitled > _Daystar_and_Shadow_ . As far as I know it is no longer in print. > Anyone knowing pertinant information about it (such as, Author's > name, correct title if that's not it, etc.) , it would be greatly > appreciated. Title: DAYSTAR AND SHADOW Author: James B. Johnson Publisher: DAW Books, UE1605, March 1981 --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 86 22:52 PDT From: Tom Perrine Subject: Colossus on video tape? A couple of weeks ago, I taped "Colossus: the Forbin Project" from broadcast TV. It wasnt until I viewed it recently that I discovered how dreadful the broadcast print was. Does anyone know where I can buy a video tape of this movie? Preferably one made from a better print? None of the video stores around here seem to know anything about it... Thanks, Tom Perrine ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1986 08:53 EST From: Christopher Condon Subject: Starlog - New York Convention I went to the Starlog convention in New York City yesterday and found it quite interesting. This was the *first* SF convention I have been to so I don't have much to compare it to. It was, however, a lot of fun. It is still going on today (Sunday) but I am not rich enough to stay in NYC overnight. There were plenty of tables with people selling Star Trek and Doctor Who "stuff" (Tardis keys, starship blueprints, fanzines, etc.), mostly Star Trek. Nothing that I didn't expect. Film previews: I stuck around for the previews of Poltergiest II and Star Babies. Poltergeist II has nothing to do with either Speilberg or Hooper. (Hooper was scheduled to be there but was stuck in Texas doing another Chainsaw Massacre(sp?) movie). It looks to be heavy on the special effects and not much else. Star Babies seems to be a cross between sports and SF. The preview outlined the plot (if you can call it that). They didn't want to give too much away but it seemed awfully dippy. We all had a good laugh. The Guests: The most notable guest was Mark Lenard (Sarek of Star Trek). He liked to talk about subjects other than Star Trek which left little room for questions. The only mildy revealing questions were: "Do Amanda and Sarek go back in time?" Answer: No. "Does ST IV solve the problem of the Enterprise?" Answer: (long pause) Yes. That last question was ambiguous enough to keep 'em curious for a few days. It depends on what you think the Enterprise Problem is. Lack of a ship? Or getting the Enterprise back? He told us what Harve Bennett has said already, that ST IV will be humorous. No big news. Today there is supposed to be a ST IV question-answer session but since I'm not there... The other guest was the man who plays the Brigadier on Dr. Who. I forget his name offhand since I don't watch the show that often. I could see the big difference between the Star Trek fans and Dr. Who fans (at this convention) by the questions. A typical question to the Brigadier was: "Have you ever met an alien that wasn't impervious to bullets?" The rest of the questions dealt with which Doctor he liked working with best, to which he would answer "The one I was working with at the time". Most of the question to Mark Lenard were about him and NOT ST IV. Curious. He even said "I know what you all want to know about (the movie)" but less than half of the questions were about that. I enjoyed it. Hopefully someone at the convention today will fill us in on those Star Trek IV previews I'm missing. Mark Lenard is supposed to talk angain today, also. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 13 May 86 0906-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #116 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 13 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 116 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 May 86 17:03:48 GMT From: rlvd!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Woods) Subject: Re: Legolas and the Moria door inscription From: winalski%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Paul S. Winalski) >The inscription on the door was in Sindarin (Grey Elvish), not >Quenya (High Elvish). Is is made very clear in the Appendices to >Lord of the Rings that although most of the people that Thranduil >King of the Elves of Mirkwood ruled were Silvan Elves, he and his >son Legolas were Sindar and therefore spoke Sindarin. My apologies. My copy of tLotR doesn't have the appendices and it is a long time since I read a copy which did. It is also some time since I read the Silmarilion, where it discusses the history of the three races of Elves after the destruction of Beleriand. I guessed it was Quenya because I thought the people of Hollan (?) (the Elvish kingdom west of Moria) were mainly Noldor (being led by Celeborn and Galadrial). I also forgot about Thranduil being a Sindar. Fortunately, it was my second argument which was important (and right!). Mike Woods. UK JANET:mike@uk.ac.rl.vd UUCP: mcvax!ukc!rlvd!mike ------------------------------ From: rlvd!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Woods) Subject: Re: Gandalf Date: 7 May 86 17:56:17 GMT bhaskar@cvl.UUCP writes: >Does the author explicitly mention anywhere what type of "being" >Gandalf was ? Several species of life are mentioned - hobbits, men, >dwarves, elves among them. Into which category did Gandalf fit ? Is >Wizard a separate class ? > >If Tolkien does say something definite, I would like to know where >it is said . The best source of information is in "The Unfinished Tales" (of course, it may not be published in the states). One of the tales is of the meeting of the Valar to decide what should be done about Sauron. In the end they choose to send a few of the lesser spirits (I can't remember their name) as wizards to Middle Earth to unite the people against Sauron. I think there also hints about this in the appendices of the Lord of the Rings and in the "Silmarilon". "The Unfinished tales" even gives Gandalf's real name! Mike Woods. UK JANET: mike@uk.ac.rl.vd UUCP: ..!mcvax!ukc!rlvd!mike ------------------------------ From: rlvd!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Woods) Subject: Re: Gandalf Date: 7 May 86 18:02:11 GMT sah@ukc.ukc.ac.uk (S.A.Hill) writes: >Tom Bombadil and the River Daughter were probably Maia as well. >(See "A Tolkien Bestiary"). I don't see how this can be. Gandalf was frightened even to touch the Ring because he knew he be ensnared by it. Tom Bombadil played with it, twirling round his finger, with no concern; and at the council of Elrond (I think) it is said that the ring could have no hold on him. That suggests to me that Tom was even greater than Sauron in all his malice! Mike Woods. UK JANET: mike@uk.ac.rl.vd UUCP: ..!mcvax!ukc!rlvd!mike ------------------------------ From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Writing fantasy Date: 9 May 86 22:15:25 GMT alfke@csvax.caltech.edu writes: >Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh) writes: >>*I don't like fantasy. I feel that anybody can write fiction if >>he gets to make up his own rules. I like hard SF, with premises >>that are plausible if not probable, and thought-provoking. I did >>read _The Hobbit_, and wasn't too impressed. Please don't flame >>me for my opinions; they're mine, and I don't want to hear that >>Tolkien is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Btw, I'm not >>claiming that Star Wars is all that hot either. > >Can you really not accept any fiction that could not actually >happen given more-or-less bogus scientific advances? This is just >as unimaginative and narrow-minded an attitude as exhibited by >those types who dismiss SF as trash because "it can't happen". I think he's flaming about the fact that anyone can throw nonsense together, while SF is mostly consistent. Maybe he's rigth w.r.t BAD fantasy... But GOOD fantasy is, if anything, HARDER to write than SF. Or any other branch of literature. (Flames re: ``literature'' to /dev/null.) Not only is the author throwing together ideas that don't apply in the so-called ``real'' world, he must make them CONSISTENT with themselves, each other, and what part of the ``real world'' he keeps. Tolkien succeeds at this; many other fantasy authors ignore consistency altogether. Given this, it's not hard to see why Tolkien's considered so good: Middle-Earth is consistent, from THE HOBBIT to LORD OF THE RINGS to THE SILMARILLION. AND it's consistent with mythology (recall that Middle-Earth was originally an attempt to give England a mythology of its own; Tol Eressea stopped being the British Isles ultimately, but (as an example of mythological consistency), the following Elvish names can be found in THE SILMARILLION (in the Akallabeth): Elvish more common If you really need it... Translation Avallone Tol Eressea Avalon (and British mythology `Near Valinor' rears its head again!) Atalante Numenor Atlantis `Downfallen' I daresay he worked even more interesting stuff into the Quenya (High-elven) language, but doesn't make it obvious in the SILMARILLION. Maybe in the UNFINISHED TALES he does a few more...) [I should note that the idea of King Arthur being taken to Tol Eressea strikes me as slightly strange; *that* relationship we could have done without.] Brandon decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 CIS 74106,1032 MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time) ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 86 17:55:52 GMT From: ulowell!lkeber@caip.rutgers.edu ( LAK) Subject: Re: The Istari okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU writes: >It is interesting that both Curumo (Saruman) and Olorin (Gandalf) >are Maiar of Aule, the "tinkerer" of Valinor, and that one falls >but the other does not. I thought Olorin was a Maiar of Lorien. By the way, Sauron was also a Maiar of Aule. Larry ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 86 18:25:46 GMT From: sphinx.UChicago!see1@caip.rutgers.edu (Ellen Seebacher) Subject: Women in Tolkien, continued Okay, I asked the question about "why no female Istari?" in Tolkien, or other good role models, for that matter. I confess, I'd forgotten the Lady Haleth, who led the Second House of "Men" to Beleriand in the First Age. (A warrior, true, but less inclined to romanticize it all than Eowyn of Rohan, I'll bet!) Also: in tracking down someone's reference to a belief that Gandalf was Manwe, which I did indeed find (p. 395, paperback _Unf. Tales_, but JRRT mentions it only to debunk it), I wound up rereading this gem of early feminism, which even Christopher Tolkien admits is a "remarkable" passage: (*deleted*) [pp. 206-207, _Unfinished Tales_ (Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1982).] (Quoted without permission or apologies; I expect some of you to go out and buy their book!) Ellen Keyne Seebacher Univ. of Chicago Comp Ctr. ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!see1 ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 86 16:42:41 GMT From: daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp) Subject: Tolkien - another can of worms So you thought the last Tolkien posting generated a lot of mail? Just wait 'til you see this one!! Background: I've got all the books up to "Lost Tales II" (btw, what's "Lays Of Beleriand" like, anybody?), but unfortunately they are some miles away at present, so please bear with any inexact references. Anyway, in "The Silmarillion" and other places, it says that Melkor (or Morgoth, as you prefer) created the Orcs by doing nasty things to captured Elves, whom he abducted from around Lake Cuivienen before the Valar found the Firstborn. As we all know, Elves are immortal, their lives being bound to Middle-Earth and all that; so, *does the same apply to Orcs???* I mean, all Orcs have, albeit *very* distantly, Elvish ancestors, so do they share in the immortality? And what happens to a dead Orc? Does it go to a special section of the Halls Of Nienor (sp?) and get reborn later on, like Elves do (I think)? Food for thought: in "Return Of The King", two of the Mordor Orcs are overheard by Frodo and/or Sam discussing the upcoming war, and say something like "It'll be just like the bad old days". Does this mean (a) The Battle Of The Five Armies at the end of "The Hobbit". Most recent, but seems unlikely. (b) The seige of Barad-Dur at the end of the Second Age by Isildur and Co., at the time of the Last Alliance. (c) The final battle outside Thangorodrim at the end of The First Age; in which case those orcs have got a *looong* memory. or are the orcs not recounting personal memories? Apologies for not having the exact reference. Re Tom Bombadil; doesn't it say somewhere in "The Silmarillion" that not all the Maia lived with the Valar, and that there were "rogue" (so to speak) Maia who didn't acknowledge Manwe, but were still good, and lived here and there in Middle-Earth? I always thought Tom Bombadil was one of these, and the One Ring didn't affect him because he was too powerful in his own little domain. Remember that the Ring only contained a part of Sauron's power, and if Tom was a Maiar, his power certainly wouldn't be deliberately limited like that of Gandalf and the Istari. However, it was said at the Council Of Elrond that even Tom couldn't stand against the full might of Sauron, though he would be the last to succumb. Anybody know a good medium, then we could ask JRRT himself? :-) David Allsopp ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 86 01:04:36 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: doors of Moria MRC@PANDA writes: >The inscription on the doors of Moria were written in Quenya (High >Elvish). Legolas, as a wood-elf, would speak Sindarin as "common >elvish" and his own local dialect at home. He wouldn't know Quenya >-- very few elves did. Read The Silmarillion to find out why. > >The doors of Moria were built for Durin III (I think) by >Celebrimbor, the leader of the elves of Eregion (Hollin) which was >the last nation of Quenya-speaking elves on Middle-Earth. Several people seem to have made this mistake. Yes, the elves of Eregion *were* High Elves in large part, but they spoke Sindarin in the normal course of events. Tolkien stated in several places that Quenya had become a sort of elvish Latin, used only for matters of lore even by the High Elves. It had been abandoned as a spoken language before the end of the First Age in Middle Earth due to the strain caused by the Kin-slaying. Furthermore, the door inscription is recognizable as Sindarin on the basis of phonetics, grammar, and orthography. The mode of cirth used on the gate is one described in the Appendices as devised for Sindarin, and was quite different from the Quenya mode. Also the preponderance of double consonants like 'nn' and 'll' is more typical of Sindarin than Quenya. Furthermore the fricatives 'ch', and 'th' are *unknown* in Quenya. Finally, the use of mutation and mixed suffixes for declension is trypical of Sindarin rather than Quenya, which is more of a synthetic language, similar to Finnish grammatically. In Quenya the inscription would start out "Andor Nurino, Aran Morio, queta melda ar ..." or some variant thereon. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 86 02:13:46 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Tolkien, inscription, Legolas (really Elvish-language Subject: trivia) platt@cit-vax.UUCP (John Platt) writes: >Yes, indeed, "Languages of Middle Earth" was written by Ruth Noel. >A good book... especially for resolving disputes about Elvish >trivia. Another good book is "Mythology of Middle Earth," also by >Ruth Noel, which traces down the mythological roots of Tolkien's >work. I cannot let this pass, Ruth Noel's book is very *poorly* done, with numerous major gaffes. My copy has penciled-in corrections on almost every page! In the gramatical section she consistantly fails to realize that Tolkien's English translations of elvish phrases were highly colloquial and tries to make the *exact* English match the elvish. Thus she lists "utulien" as a present tense and "utulie'n" as a past tense on the *same* page. And her "past" tense list mixes the historic past with the perfect tense!(utulie is in fact a perfect tense). In the same vein she fails to realize that words in different languages seldom match exactly in meaning and treats words and endings translated by the same English word as full synonyms. For instance, in the "elvish" inscription on the title page she uses the suffix "-ve" for a genitive! Just because both may be translated as "of" does *not* make them equivalent! In fact "-ve" is a compositive or a partitive and *cannot* be used in a possessive sense! In fact that same inscription other errors. I find it particularly hideous that she uses the Sindarin Mode of Beleriand to write *Quenya*. And in the dictionary portion she completely fails to distinguish between Old Quenya(or Cuivalin as I call it) and Quenya proper, as it existed during the times of the chronicles. And the preceding is just a *brief* list of some of the errors. Hopefully I will get my own Elvish Dictionary finished before too much longer and then there will be a truly scholarly work on these languages available. For one thing, I am taking longer about it and reviewing my work for accuracy, that one reason why it isn't done yet. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 May 86 0801-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #117 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 14 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 117 Today's Topics: Books - Aldiss (2 msgs) & Asimov (2 msgs) & Ellison & Godwin & Laumer & Varley & SF Tie-ins & Funny SF, Television - Doctor Who, Miscellaneous - Convention Announcement ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 May 86 20:07:30 GMT From: ritcv!laa8399@caip.rutgers.edu (Lindon A. Archer) Subject: Helliconia Summer Does any one out there know if there will be another sequel? In case some of you do not know, there is also a Helliconia Spring. The ending of Helliconia Summer certainly left me wanting for more! While I am on the subject of asking if sequels have come out, is there a new Dragon Rider novel to follow The White Dragon? Anne McCaffrey really has a winner with that series of novels. ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 86 01:07:36 GMT From: ritcv!iav1917@caip.rutgers.edu (alan i. vymetalik) Subject: Re: Helliconia Summer Well, guess what? There is a sequel. It's called Helliconia Winter. I saw it on the racks at B. Dalton's yesterday. If I remember, it was in the large-trade paperback format. I had run out of money so I couldn't get it. Enjoy! alan i. vymetalik Bitnet: aiv1974@ritvaxd UUCP: {allegra,seismo}!rochester!ritcv!iav1917 ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 86 21:09:25 GMT From: hsgj@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Dan Green) Subject: Isaac Asimov, Robots of Dawn On the subject of mis-spellings in science fiction literature: I just bought "The Robots of Dawn" by Isaac Asimov, a book that is acclaimed and proudly states, "over 3 months on the NYT bestseller list". Yet, there is an omission on one of the text lines. Specifically, on page 45: "If one accepted the fact that human beings had learned to manipulate hyperspace without understanding the thing they manipulated, then the effect was clear. At one moment, the ship had been within microparsecs of [*], and at the next moment, it was in microparsecs of Aurora." Clearly, there should be the word "Earth" where I have a [*] marked. This indicates that computer spelling checkers were used almost exclusively, as this omission would easily have been caught by a human reader. When even the top (in volume :-) author with a bestseller has technical mistakes in his book, it makes you wonder how much the publishers really care about presentation quality. *** Change of Subject *** Some people have been arguing over whether Asimov has a son or a daughter or both. Well in Robots of Dawn he implies (through Dr. Fastolfe) that he likes his daughter better: (From page 154) Finally, Fastolfe said, "I don't know what I ought to tell you, but let me go back some decades. I have two daughters [...]" "Would you rather have had sons, Dr. Fastolfe?" Fastolfe looked genuinely surprised. "No. Not at all [...] I would have accepted a son, you understand, but I didn't want to abandon the chance of a daughter. I approve of daughters, somehow." Well it is not too good a practice to read into this sort of thing, but I had to! On the last page Biography blurb, Asimov mentions that he has two children, by a previous marriage. Something else occured to me, too. In the Caves of Steel, Dr. Fastolfe was always talking about the C-Fe (Carbon and Iron) society, which is pronounced "See Fee". Might this not be a bad pun on "Sci Fi" ??? I thought Robots of Dawn was a very good book; even though I waited three months to get it, I really did enjoy it once I read it (in one sitting!) Dan Green Bitnet: hsgj@cornella UUCP: {decvax,ihnp4,allegra,vax135}!cornell!batcomputer!hsgj Arpa: hsgj@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 86 07:22:18 GMT From: lsuc!msb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Brader) Subject: Re: Another Foundation novel A couple of days ago, I wrote: > Isaac Asimov's 6th Foundation book, "Foundation and Earth", will > be published this fall. This information comes from a friend at > Doubleday, who adds that it will the 100th book of his that they > will have published. This is all I know about it. But now I'll > have to get around to reading my copy of "Robots and Empire"! Only when my friend heard that I'd given them some free publicity, he gave me more information. Revise "fall" publication to "September". ISBN will be 0-385-233124. There will be a signed limited edition of 150 copies, with the ISBN 0-385-23709-X, published simultaneously with the regular hardcover edition (of which the first printing by the way, will be 150,000 copies). Reprint rights have been sold to Ballantine / Del Rey, and British rights to Grafton. Asimov's total count of books now stands at "over 340". The story apparently carries on from the end of Foundation's Edge, following up on thread of finding Earth, and the information sheet refers to this as the 5th Foundation novel, not 6th; which leaves me wondering where "Robots and Empire" fits in ... I WILL have to read it and find out, now. And scheduled for September 1988: "Prelude to Foundation". Mark Brader ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 86 22:20 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Funny SF How can we go into funny stories without reading Harlan Ellison's anthology, The Beast That Shouted Love at the Heart of the World? It includes A Boy and his Dog, Along the Scenic Route (Freeway driving at it's worst!), and one of my all time favorites, Santa Claus vs S.P.I.D.E.R. Please, allow me a small SPOILER!!!!!! for this story with Santa as a secret agent. The description of his red suit. Here goes... The Armorer pointed with the stem of the pipe. It was a mannerism. "Well, you've got the usual stuff: the rockets, the jet-pack, the napalm, the mace and the Mace, the throwing knives, the high-pressure hoses, the boot-spikes, the .30 calibre machine guns, the acid, the flammable beard, the stomach still inflates into a raft, the flamethrower, the plastic explosives, the red rubber nose grenade, the belt tool-kit, the boomerang, the bolo, the bolas, the machete, the derringer, the belt-buckle time bomb, the lockpick equipment, the scuba gear, the camera and Xerox attachment in the hips, the steel mittens with the extensible hooks, the gas mask, the poison gas, the shark repellent, the sterno stove, the survival rations, and the microfilm library of one hundred great books." Kris pulled a sour face. "If I ever fall over I'll be like a turtle on its back." The Armorer gave Kris a jab of camaraderie, high on the left bicep. "You're a great kidder, Kris." He pointed to the boots. "Gyroscopes. Keep you level at all times. You _can't_ fall over." Kris has to fight all the great politicians, who have been taken over by S.P.I.D.E.R., including Nixon, Agnew, Daley, Reagan, and others. Copyright 1968. This stuff was years ahead of it's time. Four stars, check it out twice! Jon ------------------------------ Date: 0 0 00:00:00 CDT From: Subject: Parke Godwin's _The_Last_Rainbow_ **** A Review **** _The Last Rainbow_ by Parke Godwin is listed as being the final book in his Arthurian trilogy, the first two being _Firelord_ and _Beloved Exile_. Actually, it shares only a common world, and concerns the adventures of Saint Patrick among the Prydn, Godwin's Faerie. The attractive thing about the previous books was that they presented the Arthurian legends in a grittily realistic manner and removed a lot of the "standard" magical gimmicry. The Prydn served to illuminate the Arthurian story in the previous books, and their magic was presented in a way that one could find an explanation for it if one worked at it. The magic was too much of a plot device in The Last Rainbow, and it interfered with Godwin's attempts to "humanize" St. Patrick. The flights of fancy delivered by the Prydn magic become harder and harder to accept, and the story suffers substantially. Godwin also spends the last third of the book trying to set up the Prydn for their role in _Firelord_, and comes up with a ridiculous device to incorporate the legends of travels to islands in the west (ie. America). The Last Rainbow is about how Father Patricius ends up among the Prydn. While he attempts to teach them Christianity, they attempt to teach him their own traditions and tolerance. Of course, he learns to love them and ends up in bed with the heroine, after interminable haggling. He then leads his Christianized Prydn off to war for Ambrosius, taking desparate losses, and losing his faith. Subsequently, he regains his faith through Prydn magic, the clan he has been living with head off to America, and he returns to Ireland to become St. Patrick. Much of this silliness is documented with "actual" letters from his mentor, Bishop Meganius, to Rome; whether these missives actually exist or not, they are obvious attempts to "prove" Godwin's version of the story. On the whole, I do not recommend this book. It moralizes, plods interminably, telegraphs turning points for pages beforehand, and lastly, reaches further and further into the hat for contrivances to tie together the dangling plot lines. The first two books are excellent; reread them instead. On the -4 to +4 scale, I'd give this one a -1. Lynne C. Moore ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 86 19:50:11 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: lark's vomit and Keith Laumer From: uiucdcsb!bolotin (Russel Dalenberg) > I can't sit by and see a publisher maligned. Laumer's books > (especially the Retief books) have ALWAYS been like this! Laumer > seems to love re-packaging his stories to fool unwary buyers. Be > alert, but watch for the name "Laumer"; not the publisher "Bean". I can't sit by and see an author maligned. Laumer's books have *not* "always" been like this. Only since Jim Baen got his hands on them. "What?" you say, "Baen Books have only been around a short time. Tor was publishing Laumer before that. And Ace and Pocket Books before that." Ah, but until he formed Baen Books, Jim Baen was editor of Tor Books (helped found it, in fact) and editor at Ace before *that*. It is Baen who is responsible for the Laumer packaging that you so despise. If you look at the Retief books that were published by Pocket/Timescape, you won't notice this devious packaging; David Hartwell knew better. Notice also that Laumer is *not* the only one that Baen has been packaging like this at both Tor and Baen Books. Be alert, but watch for the publisher "Baen", not the name "Laumer". --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 86 18:10:04 GMT From: teklds!hankb@caip.rutgers.edu (Hank Buurman) Subject: Re: Varley's characters ajb@mruxe.UUCP (A J Burstein) writes: >As far as I can remember, all of John Varley's stories have had >female main characters. Does anyone know of one of his stories in >which the protagonist is female? > >Before I get in trouble (or is it too late?) I'd like to point out >that I don't think there is anything wrong with this. In fact I >think it is a refreshing change. While female writers may often >use male characters, they are simply following society's >traditions: most books are dominated by male characters, and a few >have a balance of men and women as main characters. Varley is >definitely -- and deliberately? -- bucking the norm. Comments >anyone? I think your assumption is correct. I have read four of his books, the "Titan" series, and "Millennium". I don't know what else he has published, but in these, his female protaganists were also very much sexually uninhibited, having as sexual partners men, women, animals (Titanides), and a robot. He is very good at writing erotica, i.e., the scene where the ghost (spirit, whatever) of Gaby makes love to Cirroco Jones. Some of you may find his writing offensive, but I enjoy it a great deal. Hank Buurman ...tektronix!tekla!hankb ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 86 08:59:05 GMT From: jacob@renoir.berkeley.edu (Jacob Butcher) Subject: Re: Cute SF tie-ins This may be a little out of date, but recently some people were discussing tie-ins in Buck Rogers & Star Trek with traditional SF stories. Well,... In Jack Chalker's _And_the_Devil_Will_Drag_You_Under_, there was a scene in a somewhat fantasyish dimension, where I (think) the woman was trying to steal a gem from a dangerous castle or something of that ilk. At one point Chalker briefly describes a whole slew of strange characters. When I was rereading the book in a fit of boredom (NEVER, NEVER, reread anything by Chalker -- it can't handle the scrutiny. Likewise Hogan. [And anything of Foster's which could handle the scrutiny of the first reading.]) I suddenly realized that one pair of characters sounded an awful lot like Fafrhd and the Mouser. And, hey, this guy could be Conan, and him over here, somebody else famous but obviously not famous enough for me to remember him, and, and, well, I never did figure out who they all were and wouldn't mind being told. But it was fun pondering the surprise. L. Neil Smith wrote a slightly neat book once called _The_Probability_Broach_, which is extremely Libertarian. What makes it less neat is that he keeps rewriting it -- he even went so far as to write a book which was totally unrelated until about halfway through when he wimped out and tied it back in to his standard universe. (Although he did write the Bucketeers book, which was unrelated.) Anyway, the latest that I've seen is about the usual characters going back in time to stop an insidious plot to change history by one "Edna Janof". Now, at a couple of points [uh, oh, deja vu, have I mentioned this before?] she is described as wearing tights, leg-warmers, and a red & black striped body-suit. Sound familiar? I'll give you a hint: Edna Janof is an anagram for Jane Fonda. What would Smith have against the Fondoid? I can't believe this is a coincidence. (Of course, I can't believe HAL was a coincidence either, no matter what Clarke or Kubrick say.) Who is "cargo master Dane Thorson"? jacob ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 86 20:20:43 GMT From: ewan@uw-june (Ewan Tempero) Subject: Re: And! More! Funny! SF! I recommend a book by the name something like "Who goes here" and I think by Bob Shaw. It's a time-travel story that includes a lot of tongue-in-cheek and is very well thought out. It's been years since I read it so I'm not sure who published it or if it's still around. Ewan Tempero UUCP: ...!uw-beaver!uw-june!ewan ARPA: ewan@washington.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 86 13:52:41 GMT From: kcl-cs!flynn@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC429) Subject: Re: Doctor Who From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson >Concerning the story "Face of Evil" from the Tom Baker era: > >The point is that the Face could not have been the Fourth Doctor's >since he hadn't yet been to Leela's planet in that incarnation. I think it's accepted that not every one of the Doctor's adventures is seen on television. Take, for example, the references to Jo Grant in "Timelash" or the Doctor's earlier visit to Jocunda before "The Twin Dillemma" (dilemma??). Hence, it's presumably quite possible that the Doctor slipped-off on his own to Leela's planet at some point before "The Face Of Evil", returning to Earth to continue his "televised" encounters. A.Flynn ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 86 23:43:39 GMT From: sdcc6!ix312@caip.rutgers.edu (ix312) Subject: Star Trek Convention To whom it might concern: there will be a Star Trek/ Dr Who convention at the Red Lion Inn, San Jose, CA during the weekend of July 26 this summer (fri,sat,sun) Guests are: Jimmy Doohan(Scotty), George Takei(Sulu) and Walter Koenig(Chekov) From Dr Who, we have Anthony Ainley(the Master). For more information, write to TIMECON'86 124-H BLOSSOM HILL RD., SAN JOSE, CA 95123 USA. THANKS! ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 May 86 0830-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #118 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 14 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 118 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Hodgell & Moorcock (2 msgs) & Powers & Codex Seraphinianus (2 msgs) & Ordering Books & Soviet SF & Funny SF, Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide, Television - Doctor Who ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 May 86 21:46:59 GMT From: okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (The New Number Who) Subject: Re: The Apprentice Adept series > I remember some info, which I present below, please respond with > any clarifications or corrections. > > Black - Magic Powers were in creating thing from lines. > Yellow - Created magic Potions. > Brown - Created Golems. > Orange - Magic Powers included the control of Plants. > White - ? If memory serves correctly, the White Adept was (ahem!) adept at cold/ice and used gestures to invoke them. > Red - Created magic Amulets Let's not forget the Tan Adept, who had the Evil Eye, or was it the Green Adept who had it? The other one could shape change people by eye contact. > Blue - Magic summoned through verse. The more musical, the > more powerful. > > Another question, did Stiles (Blue) need to play music before he > voices his musical incantation? Also, what other types of magic > were there? His name is "Stile", not "Stiles". Anthony has said that he is interested in writing sequels to the series. It seems obvious to me that what it will concern is Stile/The Blue Adept's adventures on the other side of the OTHER curtain (recall Stile's and Lady Blue's honeymoon to the West Pole). What will he find there? Jeff Okamoto ..!ucbvax!okamoto okamoto@ucbvax.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 86 07:12:04 GMT From: ucla-cs!cc@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: P. G. Hodgell tewok@maryland.UUCP (Uncle Wayne) writes: >soren@reed.UUCP (Soren Petersen) writes: >>Has anyone read the new book by P. G. Hodgell called (I think) >>*Dark is the Moon*? I saw it in a bookstore, in hardcover, so I >>didn't get it. It is a sequel to *Godstalk* (which I enjoyed, >>although I gather a fair number of net.people didn't). > >At last! I've been hoping Hodgell would bring out a sequel to >*Godstalk*. I am also one of the few that enjoyed it. What were >the reasons against it? I am also surprised by this... I missed the discussion of "Godstalk", else I would have added my voice in supporting it. It was a marvelously done book that had some VERY good and detailed analysis of the relationship between people and gods. As for _Dark is the Moon_, it is out and I have missed it! I was ready and willing to shell out the $$$ for the hardcover (and I am a starving student!) but can not find it ANYWHERE (even in The Change Of Hobbit!). Anyone knows who published the book? Oleg Kiselev ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 86 08:18:33 GMT From: unc!boughton@caip.rutgers.edu (James Boughton) Subject: Re: Re: Eternal Champion > Has Moorcock written anything that did not in some way connect > with everything else he's written? I seem to recall, although I > can't think quite where, my collection being 600 miles away, that > the Eternal Champion books connected to the Jerry > Cornelius/Dancers at the End of time books. I don't know of any fiction that Moorcock has written that he has not tied into the Eternal Champion series in some manner or another (such as having the main character mentioned as an aspect of the Eternal Champion in another story, or having Una Persson appear somewhere in the story). He has allegedly written at least two works of non fiction, although I don't know if either has appeared in print in this country. One is a based on the movie about the Sex Pistols, the Great Rock'n'Roll Swindle. The other was a book about fantasy. I do have a pamphlet based on one of the chapters of that book - it is about Tolkien and called Epic Pooh. (As you might gather from the title, Moorcock is not very fond of Tolkien...) I can't imagine these two books being part of the Eternal Champion, but one never knows..... Jim Boughton ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 86 09:35:51 GMT From: unc!boughton@caip.rutgers.edu (James Boughton) Subject: Re: Moorcock and assoc'd. rock bands haviland@uvm-gen.UUCP (Tom Haviland) writes: >In the same vein, a couple of Blue Oyster Cult songs, >_Veteran_of_the_Psychic_Wars_ and _Black_Blade_ were cowritten by >Moorcock. _Black_Blade_ seems to be about Elric, with lots of >references to the sword controlling him and the like. I don't know >if _Veteran_ is about any specific story, but it appears the the >soundtrack to _Heavy_Metal_. Both songs can also be found on (I >think) BOC's album _Cultosaurus_Erectus_. Good tunes, too. Veteran of the Psychic Wars is not on Cultosaurus Erectus - I think it is on Fire of Unknown Origin, but I am not positive. (It is on the Heavy Metal Soundtrack too.) There is a third Moorcock/BOC collaboration, on Mirrors, called Sun Jester and it is about the main character in the Moorcock novel The Fire Clown. It's my favorite of the three. "They have killed the great Sun Jester They have killed the Fire Clown" I don't know if past couple BOC albums have any Moorcock tunes on them. Jim Boughton ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 86 13:51:03 edt From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: William Ashbless appears to be turning into one of those mythical characters that various people use in the fringes of their books. Powers quotes from (Metamorphoses? Inferno?) in (allegedly) the Ashbless translation at the beginning of DINNER AT DEVIANT'S PALACE, and in his newest book (a rewrite of his first, originally a Laser book) the hero runs across a collection of Ashbless's poetry. It's not surprising that A also shows up in Blaylock, as SF authors occasionally borrow characters and A is set up as a stranger in THE ANUBIS GATES. We'll know it's serious when Farmer comes out with an Ashbless biography. ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 86 03:00:45 GMT From: h-sc2!mckenzie_b@caip.rutgers.edu (david mckenzie) Subject: Re: _Codex_Seraphinianus_ The Codex Seraphinianus is a wonderfully strange book written and illustrated by the Italian architect Luigi Serafini. It describes the science/botany/anthropology/sociology/architecture/ technology/etc. of an invented world arising (presumably) out of Serafini's bizarre imagination. The book is lavishly illustrated with many beautiful and strange color drawings of Serafinian objects/people/scenes/etc. The catch is that the whole book (including page numbers!) is written in a hitherto unknown language invented by Luigi Serafini! Furthermore, this language is set down in a strange script, also invented by Mr. Serafini. I was turned on to the Codex (as I assume others were) by Douglas Hofstadter, who mentions it in his 'Metamagical Themas' (another wonderful book). Trying to fathom the Codex could well become a full-time job. It's also great for freaking out your friends, and the illustrations are beautiful in their own right. (I particularly like the walking trees, the yarn-people, lamp-people and gondola-people, and the lovers -> crocodiles sequence.) There are two editions of the Codex; the original Italian edition in two volumes, and a one-volume edition published by someone in New York. The prices of these are respectively astronomical and merely outrageous, so try to find it in a library. (So far, I'm the only person to have taken it out of the Harvard Fine Arts Library - I guess that people around here haven't caught on to it yet.) Any very large college library with a slightly eccentric purchasing agent should have a copy (I hope). David McKenzie UUCP: ...seismo!harvard!h-sc4!h-sc2!mckenzie_b ARPA: mckenzie_b%h-sc2@harvard.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 86 07:02:16 GMT From: cc@ucla-cs.ARPA (UCLA Computer Club) Subject: Re: _Codex_Seraphinianus_ Well, CODEX is a what appears to be a small encyclopaedia that describes most aspects of biology, technology and culture of an almost human-looking race that exists in an almost Earth-looking environment that are both mundane and incredibly fantastic. The book is very craftily put together and the illustrations are of very high quality. All writing is done in an alien flowing script (no guaranties given about the lack of misspellings! :-) Glen, I *have* the book. If you can hang on 'till July, we can arrange for me to bring it to ORIGINS and you can look at it. OK? Oleg Kiselev ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 86 18:25:06 PDT From: Linda Wald Subject: Ordering Books I've noticed several queries about how to obtain a particular book. Here are two good sources for mailordering -- they ship promptly (once they get the books) and I at least trust them. A CHANGE OF HOBBIT 1853 Lincoln Blvd. Santa Monica, Calif. 90404 (213) GREAT SF They do not issue a catalog. However, they have a monthly newsletter which lists upcoming titles. You can subscribe by sending in a bunch of SASEs -- your subscription lasts as long as your envelopes do. They also have a fair amount of out of print and used books. They accept want lists. They have pre-paid accounts, which means they can ship books as soon as they arrive in the store. Write for their mail ordering information (send an SASE !). MARK V. ZIESING P.O.BOX 806 Willimantic, CT. 06226 (203) 423-5836 days (203) 423-3867 evenings He issues a catalog which includes some one line reviews. He carries in stock most in print hardcovers and a fair number of paperbacks. He is, naturally, the best source for Ziesing Bros. Press books (they originally printed Castle of the Otter, and they're Free Live Free come out 6 mos. before and had a better cover than the Tor edition). He carries a lot of out of print and used books, both hardback and paperback. You can send want lists and open an account and all. Write for the catalog. There's no charge for being on the mailing list. A lot of small press books pretty much have to be ordered from the publisher. I have some addresses and upcoming information, but I'd like more. Send mail to me -- I'll summarize to the net if there's enough interest. Linda Wald math.linda@ucla-locus.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 86 11:03 EDT From: Schneider.wbst@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #110 Back in the 1980 time frame I bought a collection of short stories under the header of Soviet SF. The stories in this edition were by Kiril Bulshyev (probably misspelled that), and the back cover promised more collections by different Russian authors. I haven't seen any others, and haven't written to the publisher yet, but has anybody spotted these books? Where can I find them? Thanks Eric ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 86 10:09:36 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Humorous sf (Chap Foey Rider) > From: winalski%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Paul S. Winalski) > Analog also published a few stories some years back revolving > around a Chinese immigrant businessman named Chap Foey Rider.... > [...] Alas, I do not remember who the author is. Ah, I remember those stories well. The author was Hayford Peirce [*sic*]. There were 5 stories altogether: "Mail Supremacy" Mar 1975 "Doing Well While Doing Good" Aug 1975 "Rebounder" Apr 1976 "The Missionaries' Position" Jan 1977 "Children of Invention" Mar 1977 And I agree with your assessment. I thought the first story was wonderful, though they slowly declined in quality as they came out. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 86 21:16:07 GMT From: srouse@PAVEPAWS.BERKELEY.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse) Subject: HHGttG: Share and Enjoy. bingaman@dcc1.UUCP (George C. Bingaman) writes: > I am seeking a quote from the radio version of >_The_Hitchhikers_Guide_to_the Galaxy_ that has been broadcast over >NPR in the USA. The quote is set up by a discussion (by the >guide?) about the never-to-be-sufficiently-damned >complaint/customer service department of the Sirius Cybernetics >Corporation.... > Did anyone out there in net-land manage to tape this particular >episode and extract the lyrics? If so, I would dearly love a copy. >In fact, the text from the beginning of the discussion thru the end >of the song would be greatly appreciated, but I don't want to be >greedy. I figured that there are others out there who would like to know the words to the song, and the story behind the slogan, so... (excerpted from episode eight of The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy BBC Radio series. All copyrights reserved for someone else. No, I didn't use the scripts so there might be some minor errors...) Eddie: Hi There! Zaphod: Computer. Get us on an improbability trajectory out of here pronto. Eddie: Sorry guys, I can't do that right now. All of my circuits are currently engaged in solving a different problem. Now, I know that this is very unusual, but it is a very difficult and challenging problem, and I know that the result will be one that we can all share and enjoy. Share and enjoy. Narrator (Book): "Share and Enjoy", is of course the company motto of the hugely successful Sirius Cybernetics Corporation Complaints Division, which now covers the major land masses of three medium sized planets, and is the only part of the corporation to show a consistent profit in recent years. The motto stands, or rather stood, in three mile high, illuminated letters, near the complaints department spaceport on Edrax. "Share and Enjoy". Unfortunately, its weight was such that, shortly after it was erected, the ground beneath the letters caved in and they dropped for nearly half their length through the underground offices of many talented young complaints executives, now deceased. The protruding upper halves of the letters now appear in the local language to read, "Go stick your head in a pig.", and are no longer illuminated, except at times of special celebration. At these times of special celebration, a choir of company robots sing the company song, "Share and Enjoy". Unfortunately, again, another of the computing errors, for which the company is justly famous, means that the robots' voice boxes are exactly a flattened fifth out of tune, and the result sounds something like this... [out of tune fanfare on a synthesiser] Robots (singing a flattened fifth out of tune): Share and enjoy, share and enjoy. Journey through life with a plastic boy, or girl by your side. Let your pal be your guide. And when it breaks down or starts to annoy, or grinds when it moves and gives you no joy, 'cuz it eats up your hat or has sex with your cat, leaks oil on your wall or rips off your door, and you get to the point you can't stand anymore. Bring him to us we won't give a fig. We'll tell you.. "Go stick your head in a pig". Narrator (Book): ...only, slightly worse. ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 1986 09:34:03 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson Subject: Who again? >Just because we didn't see the Doctor and Sarah actually visit the >planet doesn't mean that they were never there. While their early >adventures from "Robot" to "The Android Invasion" pretty much >follow directly in sequence, there are numerous gaps in their later >adventures together where they might have popped off without us >knowing. Ok, so it *is* possible that the Doctor had visited the Sevateem planet before. But there are other questions about Who that I've been pondering, such as "Who is the Doctor's wife? Who is his son/daughter?" Stuff like that. Answers? Carlo Samson U09862 @ uicvm ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 May 86 0900-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #119 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 16 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 119 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov (3 msgs) & Brooks & Brust & Ellison & Garrett & Heinlein & Moorcock (2 msgs) & Powers & Wilson & Wu, Films - This Island Earth, Television - Doctor Who (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - A Question About the SCA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tuesday, 13 May 1986 12:39:00-PDT From: mackenzie%donjon.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Kaye MacKenzie DTN From: 273-3092) Subject: Asimov's "The Last Question"... I've been reading SFL for a long time now, but have never contributed. When I read Brendan Boelke's answer to Derik Zahn's query about Asimov's story, "The Last Question", I just had to respond! I haven't read it in years although it has always been a favorite of mine - especially after I visited St. Louis years ago (Oh, Lord - it was 1973!). While there, I visited the St. Louis Planetarium which was doing a show on Entropy - and guess what short story was being used as a framework for the planetarium displays ? This very same favorite short story! The characters' voices could be heard while the dome showed shadows of them and the 'puters. In between each scene came the explanations and planetarium showing of "The Big Bang", the "constriction" of the universe, etc. Thanks so much for reminding me!! One other thing I remember about this - no audio credit was given Asimov! Maybe he was credited elsewhere, in a printed program or on some sign, but I never saw it! Kaye MacKenzie ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: NOT SO HUMUROUS SF Date: 12 May 86 13:35:36 GMT From: WCCS.E-SIMON%KLA.WESLYN%Wesleyan.Bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU >Little did I realize that all of my sensibilities were about to be >attacked by a seemingly innocent 3-page story. This tale ends in a >pun which is so excruciatingly painful that I had to run around in >circles for ten minutes yelling "oogie oogie oogie !!!" just to >keep myself from throwing up on my girlfriend's shoes. (The pun >was one of those which paraphrases a popular saying). Then the pun was only a three on the Bernard Shaw scale.... >Please, Mr. Asimov (as well as all other authors), do not insult >you fans by writing such utterly unsatisfying stories (or, at >least, if you do, make them funny). To quote the Good Doctor (if he's such a good doctor, why'd he give it up to be a writer?) "...I happen to consider the pun the highest form of humor." Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 86 01:17:24 GMT From: warwick!kay@caip.rutgers.edu (Kay Dekker) Subject: Re: NOT SO HUMUROUS SF Oh, dear me, yes, I remember "Death of a Foy"... I'm afraid that (due to having just had my appendix removed) I was incapable of running around, but I suppose I could have (barely) whispered "oogie..." (does it relly help?) before acute brainmelt took place. Fortunately, none of my SS (*) were visiting, so I had to make do with eating my own head... People-who-hate-puns, *avoid* that story! I still weep with strangulated fury when I read it... PS: Even worse, I'd had to miss the *last ever* Led Zeppelin gig because of my errant tripes... I was *not* in a good mood! Kay. ... mcvax!ukc!warwick!kay (*) SS == Significant Several ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 86 00:45:16 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Terry Brooks fantasy names andrews@ubc-cs.UUCP (Jamie Andrews) writes: > Did you know that "Elessedil", the name of the Elf king in >_Sword_, could easily be interpreted as a name in Tolkien's Elvish, >with the meaning "Lover of Elvish Names"?!!? Disgusting. Well, strictly speaking "Lover of Elvish Names" would be "Elessendil", but that is certainly very close indeed. The name could also be interpreted as "One who loves to be among the stars". But I have seen even worse! One fantasy I read, by Sanders Anne Laubenthal, used perfect elvish for the names of many characters. What is worse the characters so named were all *angels*! I mean names like "Morithil", and "Morandir". All in a book based on the Arthurian legends! Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 86 05:35:19 GMT From: starfire!brust@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust) Subject: Re: Brust's Jhereg, Yendi, (and soon?) Tekla > How long can he keep it up? When is SKZB going to START writing > this series? I like where it ended up -- or is it finished? TACKY...er, TECKLA is an immediate sequel to JAR-HEAD. JHEREG, I mean. If I write another Vlad book (I'm currently expecting to), it will be the first one, and probably called EASTERNER. I have been killing myself lately, trying to do stuff I'm probably not good enough to do, and I badly need to sit down and write something full of action and violence without a trace redeeming social value, just to get it out of my system. EASTERNER will, I hope, be a good place to do this. Thanks for being curious. skzb ------------------------------ Date: Tue 13 May 86 14:52:37-PDT From: Evan Kirshenbaum Subject: Re: my earlier request (Ellison quote) >In a previous note, I made a request for a full quotation from a >"Heinlein" book that I had seen once. I have since then been >informed that the quote was actually from Harlan Ellison. Whoops. >At any rate, I still haven't received email from anyone knowing the >entire quote, so I'm still hoping. The punchline of the quote was >"And what the hell, they caught him". Help?!?!? Well, the quote is from "'Repent, Harlequin!', said the Ticktockman" which is indeed by Ellison. I'm not sure how much of the story is the quote you want, but the surrounding context is: "They used dogs. They used probes. They used cardio plate crossoffs. They used teepers. They used bribery. They used stiktytes. They used intimidation. They used torment. They used torture. They used finks. They used cops. They used search&seizure. They used fallaron. Theys used betterment incentive. They used fingerprints. They used Bertillon. They used cunning. They used guile. They used treachery. They used Raoul Mitgong, but he didn't help much. They used applied physics. They used techinques of criminology. "And what the hell: they caught him. "After all, his name was Everett C. Marm, and he wasn't much to begin with , except a man who had no sense of time." Hope that's what you wanted. Evan Kirshenbaum evan@csli.stanford.edu [Moderator's Note: Thanks to all of the readers who sent in similar information. The list is much too long to include here for acknowledgement] ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 86 18:14:36 GMT From: gitpyr!roy@caip.rutgers.edu (Roy Mongiovi) Subject: Randall Garrett I just finished "The River Wall", which is the conclusion to the Gandalara Cycle. I enjoyed the whole series, but then I cut my SF teeth on the Tarzan series and the Mars series by Burroughs. My major complaint about the Gandalara books is that they were published as a lot of skinny (but expensive) books rather than as fewer, thicker (but still expensive) books. But then, this seems to be a pretty common ploy nowadays. Anyway, I noticed that the dedication was to Randall Garrett from his wife, Vicki Ann Heydron. And in the bio at the back of the book it said that he and his wife had planned out the entire series and completed the draft of the first volume when "Randall was seriously and permanently injured." And it went on to imply that Vicki now lives alone. I take it to mean that Randall Garrett is dead (?). Does anyone know the story on this? I'll be heartbroken if there aren't going to be any more Lord Darcy stories.... Roy J. Mongiovi. Office of Computing Services. User Services. Georgia Institute of Technology. Atlanta GA 30332. (404) 894-4660 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!roy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 86 18:38:04 PDT From: jon@csvax.caltech.edu (Jonathan P. Leech) Subject: Heinlein's Timelines > wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu writes: >> bryan@druhi.UUCP (BryanJT) writes: >>I saw nothing in "Friday" to indicate any connection with any of >>the other Future History stories. In fact, in many ways it is >>inconsistent with the other stories (living artifacts, artificial >>people, the particular sequence of planets being colonized, the >>kind of spacecraft/power supply being used, etc.). > > It is, however, in the same universe as one of his earlier > short stories (and damn! for the life of my I can't remember the > title--and it was even mentioned here, quite recently, I think). > You know--the one with "Kettle-Belly" Baldwin and the supermen. Along with "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", "The Rolling Stones", and (at least initially) "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls". It's possible that "Red Planet" and "Podkayne of Mars" are also in this universe (I recall a tenuous connection in "The Rolling Stones", but it's been a long time since I read any of them). From comments in 'Cat' it diverges from ours sometime after 1969, since Armstrong and Aldrin are mentioned as performing the first lunar landing. Jon Leech (jon@csvax.caltech.edu || ...seismo!cit-vax!jon) Caltech Computer Science Graphics Group ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 86 19:16:42 GMT From: thain@magic.DEC.COM (Glenn Thain) Subject: Re: Who really wrote the Oswald Bastable novels If you're an ERB fan, you undoubtly reconize the style of Moorcock's entrance paragraphs being remarkably similar to the opening of the Mars and Venus series. It was quite popular in the '20's and '30's to preface something in this manner, it gave the illusion of the story being "told" rather than created. I sorta like the style, it lends that 'storytelling" feeling to the whole thing. Happy Trails, Glenn thain@decwrl.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 86 08:45:00 GMT From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: Who really wrote the Oswald Bastable novels Your attention should be drawn to a series of children's books, whose titles currently escape me, written by E. Nesbit around the turn of the century. Main male character: Oswald Bastable. Hey, guys, Moorcock's having you on! Mike Farren uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 86 15:04 PDT From: Dave Dyer Subject: Re: Powers, Blaylock, & Wm Ashbless From: ihuxl!gandalf@caip.rutgers.edu (Schurman) >What I want to know is... >But mostly - What's the deal with this Ashbless guy ???? I have it directly from Powers that he and Blaylock invented Ashbless. Ashbless is some equivalent of a running joke between them. More than a good joke though! ------------------------------ From: dec-akov68!boyajian@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: re: F. Paul Wilson Date: 13 May 86 10:56:19 GMT From: jon@csvax.caltech.edu (Jonathan P. Leech) > Can anyone tell me what F. Paul Wilson has written? I have found > only 2 books (_Healer_ and _An_Enemy_Of_The_State) and would like > more if they exist. Other books he's written are: (1) WHEELS WITHIN WHEELS [1978], (2) THE TERY [half of BINARY STAR #2, 1979], (3) THE KEEP [1982], and (4) THE TOMB [1984]. And he has a new book coming out this June, THE TORCH. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 86 21:52:00 GMT From: ism780!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Study in Persistence The following is quoted from the Spring 1986 issue of The Bulletin of the Science Fiction Writers of America (subscription info write to The Bulletin..., Box H, Wharton, NJ 07885). I find it depressing, though a friend of mine finds it encouraging. Go figure. The quote is by William F. Wu, whose short story "Hong's Bluff" was nominated for a Nebula and is on the Hugo ballot. "Hong's Bluff" has had a long and varied history. I sent the first draft of the story with my application to the Clarion Writer's Workshop, which I attended in 1974, as part of the required materials. Later I revised that version with an opinion from Kate Wilhelm in mind into basically its present form. Those two versions earned seventeen rejections in the years that followed. At one point, I sold it for about two cents a word, half on acceptance, to a publisher who was going to bring out a privately financed anthology. More time past [sic], and editorial chairs changed. When this anthology did not work out, I bought the writes back and sold it to Omni, a few months shy of ten years after writing the first draft. Now Ellen Datlow's regard for the story has been further supported by this [Nebula] nomination. Naturally, after all this time, I find it all very gratifying. And that's for a story good enough to be nominated for two major awards, folks. Yechhh. Jim Brunet ihnp4/ima/ISM780 hplabs/hao/ico/ISM780 sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ISM780C/ISM7870 ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 86 20:49:42 GMT From: mplvax!rec@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Currier) Subject: THIS ISLAND EARTH Has anyone seen a print of THIS ISLAND EARTH in the last ten years??? This is my all time favorite sf film from the 50's but I have not seen it on TV or in festivals for at least 10-20 years. I hope and pray that this classic is not lost forever. It seems strange that this film is mentioned in almost every sf film book as being a superior effort but it has disappeared. I have been reading TV Guide every Friday for at least the past ten years looking specifically for it. My wife thinks I'm a crank and every week she says " Well dork, is it on this week?". All I can do is smile pitifully and mumble something about being too young to understand. At least I know that FORBIDDEN PLANET has been saved by the video market. richard currier marine physical lab u.c. san diego {ihnp4|decvax|akgua|dcdwest|ucbvax} !sdcsvax!mplvax!rec ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 86 18:24:00 GMT From: acf4!percus@caip.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus) Subject: Re: Who again? > "Who is the Doctor's wife? Who is his son/daughter?" No, Who is the Doctor. Sorry about that -- couldn't resist. Susan is said to be the Doctor's granddaughter, which leaves open many possibilities, but somehow I doubt that they are really related. A while ago, I heard of some theory that the Doctor's son is really *the Master* -- I am curious to see how that came about. Actually, William Hartnell (the first Doctor) had wanted to start a spinoff about (I believe) the Doctor's son, who would look exactly like the Doctor, but be basically evil. That would be interesting. A. G. Percus (ARPA) percus@acf4 (NYU) percus.acf4 (UUCP) ...{allegra!ihnp4!seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 86 08:27 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Doctor Who Cc: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU That's what I thought! Then a friend of mine pointed out the beginning of "Robot" when the Doctor first incarnates to Tom Baker. There's a moment when he jumps into the TARDIS (scarf trailing, as I recall) and dematerializes for just a second. But, of course, with a time machine, there's no telling just how long he was gone! That's when the events leading up to "Face of Evil" occured. Remember that the Doctor said that he'd messed things up because he was still disoriented from regenerating. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 86 13:33:20 EDT From: Hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA Subject: Society for Creative Anchronism (SCA) Why is it that SF fans don't get along with SCA types? please reply by e-mail. i don't subscribe to this list. hofmann@amsaa.arpa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 May 86 0925-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #120 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 17 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 120 Today's Topics: Books - Hodgell (2 msgs) & Lieber & Moorcock (7 msgs) & A Request Anwered, Films - Rock Horror Picture Show, Television - Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Westercon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 May 86 12:45:40 GMT From: dartvax!betsy@caip.rutgers.edu (Betsy Hanes Perry) Subject: "Dark of The Moon" (Hodgell review reposted) "Dark of the Moon", P.C. Hodgell, Argo Press (Atheneum), 1985, ISBN 0-689-31171-0 *Dark Of The Moon* ("DOTM" from here on out), is a classical second-work-in-a-series, with the classical second-work problems. It's a sequel to Hodgell's *Godstalk*, one of the better fantasies I've read recently. Unfortunately, the most compelling character in *Godstalk* (for me, anyway) was the city of Tai-Tastigon. DOTM opens with Jamethiel *outside* Tai-Tastigon, beginning her journey to find her brother Torisen. So the citizens and mores of Tai-Tastigon play no part in DOTM; as a substitute, the reader finds out more about Jame's own culture. Candidly, I find Jame's culture considerably less interesting -- it doesn't help that most of the glimpses are of fairly-standard power struggles. This book uses a fairly standard fantasy plot device, and one which drives me up a wall: the split story. DOTM tells two separate stories which converge only at book's end, and it tells them a chapter or so at a time. So, just as you're getting caught up in Jamethiel's journey west, the focus shifts to Torisen's problems with the recalcitrant Kendar lords. Just as Torisen becomes compelling, it's back to Jamethiel. This device is generally used to heighten suspense, which it certainly does. However, if one story is more interesting than the other, the reader can wind up skimming half the book in order to reach the subplot which interests her. This is my own personal vice; many readers probably won't be as bothered. Finally, DOTM has the standard second-book problem: an inconclusive ending. Readers of appendices will remember that the last book ended with Torisen wondering where the hell his twin sister Jame had gotten to, anyway. DOTM ends THREE PAGES after Torisen and Jamethiel have finally met. They have time to raise several fascinating issues, none of which are actually addressed. After going to great lengths to build up emotional tension (how will Torisen react to a twin who's now several years younger and a Darkling to boot? How will Jame fit into a culture which keeps women strictly in their place?) Hodgell drops her readers off a cliff. Readers will have to wait till Book Three to find out how the Kendar react to Jamethiel, and vice versa. (Actually, we have a hint that they don't react all that well; in a short story published in "Different Worlds", Jamethiel is six years older, and again traveling alone.) Alas, Hodgell's "Author's Note" says that the next Jamethiel novel will have to wait until Hodgell finishes her dissertation. Arrgh! Yes, this is still a remarkably enjoyable book. Hodgell writes well and draws interesting characters. I couldn't put DOTM down until the last page. For all its faults, the middle book in Hodgell's series is still far more compelling than many authors' stand alone novels. If you were passionately fond of "Godstalk", you probably won't be able to wait to buy DOTM in paperback; otherwise, you might as well wait, especially since the book ends with a thumping "To Be Continued". (I may add, three months after I wrote this review, that the book has weathered well; I've reread it several times with pleasure. I do wish that the book had a less frustrating ending, though.) Elizabeth Hanes Perry UUCP: {decvax |ihnp4 | linus| cornell}!dartvax!betsy CSNET: betsy@dartmouth ARPA: betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relay ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 86 20:08:44 GMT From: ides!kimi@caip.rutgers.edu (Kimiye Tipton) Subject: Re: P. G. Hodgell > Has anyone read the new book by P. G. Hodgell called (I think) > *Dark is the Moon*? I saw it in a bookstore, in hardcover, so I > didn't get it. It is a sequel to *Godstalk* (which I enjoyed, > although I gather a fair number of net.people didn't). Opinions? > Facts? Reviews? Read it last month. Can scarcely remember anything except disappointment. (I did like _Godstalk_.) The heroine leaves the city and journeys across the murky wilderness in search of her murky past, all the while suffering from a murky sense of guilt that reminded me too much of Thomas Covenant's heavy load. I do remember that apparently _Dark Is the Moon_ is not a sequel but the middle book of a trilogy (or a quadrilogue or a quintuplet), so don't expect much in the way of a satisfying ending. I give it a -1 on a scale of -4 to +4. Kimiye Tipton Maitland, FL USA USENET: ihnp4!ides!kimi CORNET: 754-6472 (305-660-6472) ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 1986 10:06:27 PDT Subject: Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser Novella From: Douglas M. Olson As promised a few weeks ago, I went back and dug through several anthologies to find the Lieber novella which follows Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser beyond _Swords and Ice Magic_. I wend back MUCH further than 6 months! It was in _Heroic Visions_, editor Jessica Amanda Salmonson; copyright 1983. From the credits, it appeared that this novella had not appeared anywhere else. "The Curse of the Smalls and the Stars" follows our heroes through a somewhat tame adventure on the Rime Isle, approximately a year after the completion of the events in _Swords and Ice Magic_. Doug (dolson @ Ada20) ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 1986 14:19 EDT (Wed) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Eternal Champion I believe it was reprinted recently...at least I found it amongst the latest order at a bookstore near me. ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 86 03:00:27 GMT From: jhunix!ins_avrd@caip.rutgers.edu (The Littlest Orc ) Subject: Re: Who really wrote the Oswald Bastable novels Um, this may not be relevant quite, but wasn't Oswald Bastable the narrator (and hero) of a series of English children's books, a many year ago? I seem to recall them as having been authored by E. Nesbit, and printed as Penguin Paperbacks. The only title I can think of is _The Wouldbegoods_ (and I'm not even sure about that one.....). Anyway, those books, unlike some of the other Nesbits, *weren't* fantasy or science fiction..... Vicka d'Ull Johns Hopkins Psychology ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 86 18:36:41 GMT From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) Subject: Re: Moorcock and assoc'd. rock bands Another BOC song that ties in with the movie Heavy Metal is "Vengeance". This song is not on the Heavy Metal soundtrack, and was not in the movie, but it clearly describes the last episode in the film. It also is on Fire of Unknown Origin. Brian Yamauchi yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 86 18:27:36 GMT From: sdcc7!ln63spf@caip.rutgers.edu (Very bored person) Subject: Re: Moorcock and assoc'd. rock bands 'The Great Sunjester', also by Blue Oyster Cult, is also co-written by Moorcock. It is taken mainly from a more obscure novel of his called (If I remember correctly) 'The winds of Limbo'. Steve Burnap ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 86 15:50:54 GMT From: msudoc!beach@caip.rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: Re: Eternal Champion link ups jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes: >In recent years, Moorcock has been more indirect in his ties to the >Eternal Champion books, but they're still there. In Gloriana, for >example, there is almost no reference at all to other >books...except that Queen Gloriana's chief confidante is Una >Persson, who appeared in the Cornelius books, in the Dancers at the >End of Time, in the Bastable books, and in a few books of her own. >Similarly, in his Actually Queen Glorianna'a confidant was Una, Countess of Scaith I didn't notice any other links between the two other than the name. Una Presson has never shown any reluctance to use her full name anywhere else. On the other hand there are other links to the Eternal Champion Cycle like one of Glorianna's counselors swearing by Xiombarg who is the Queen of the Swords in the Corum books and who is slain by Elric in Stormbringer. In addition in one of the Jerry Cornelius books there is a mention of a mysterious place descibed as a dream of Tanelorn where various people gathered and on the guest list some fammilliar names including (among many others) Q. Glorianna and C. Quire. >latest trilogy (beginning with "Byzantium Endures"), one of the >major figures is Catharine Cornelius, the British adventuress who >is also Jerry Cornelius''s aunt. I was under the impression that Catherine was Jerry and Frank's SISTER. Jerry Cornelius Copulates Hallucinates Devastates Dies and comes Back From the Dead... Frequently. Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 86 22:41:15 GMT From: sysdes!drw@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Moorcock, Hawkwind ... Just to try and clear up a few points ... I'm not sure that a lot of the books claimed to perhaps be in the Eternal Champion series really are, I just think Mr. Moorcock enjoys putting nice little cross-references in! There are a considerable number of (perhaps questionably) unconnected books, including _The Ice Schooner_, _The Blood Red Game_, _The Time Dweller_ (short stories), ... Also Catharine Cornelius is Jerry's sister not his aunt. As for the stories connected with rock groups ... well, there are two Hawklords books, _Time of the Hawlords_ and _Queens of Deliria_, both written by Michael Butterworth with ideas from MM. As already stated, these are based on the group Hawkwind with different lords being different members of the group. There was a third one planned (_Ledge of Darkness_ ??) but it was never published. (By the way, anybody out there who can get me a copy of _Time of the Hawklords_ just let me know!!) Hawkwind are still around and going as strong as ever. Including compilation albums and live ones there are well in excess of thirty albums. There last album (released Nov '85), The chronicle of the blacksword, is surprise surprise based on MM's Elric books. At the live shows they did in London during the supporting tour, Mike Moorcock appeared frequently on stage reciting pieces of poetry and so on (as well as co-singing the encore!). The Deep Fix, which occur not only in the Hawlords books, but also in the Jerry Cornelius books is Mike's own band. Although they don't play that often, they released an album in '75 called The New World's Fair, and have released a couple of singles (Dodgem Dude/Starcruiser and The Brothel in Rosenstrasse). I'm sorry I don't know what the American versions of the books are called, the names seem to vary between UK and the US, so you'll have to work out any differences. Also anybody interested in Moorcock/Hawkwind plus related items just let me know. I can probably give a better list of non-Eternal books if I go home and look at them! ... and get into the Hawks ... Dave Wilson ...ukc!sysdes!drw ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 86 03:56:45 GMT From: reed!soren@caip.rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen) Subject: Re: And Still More Funny/Humorous SF I'm a bit surprised that nobody has mentioned Moorcock's End of Time novels (at least in this discussion). I was just looking through them, and they are hysterical. they are An Alien Heat The Hollow Lands The End of All Songs Legends from the End of Time Messiah at the End of Time Elric at the End of Time The first three form basically form a 3 vol. novel. The others share characters, and situation, but are otherwise unrelated. Have A Nice Day, Soren Petersen ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 1986 14:06 EDT (Wed) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" To: bane@parcvax.Xerox.COM (John R. Bane) Subject: Another "Do you know this story?" request From: bane at parcvax.Xerox.COM (John R. Bane) >While sending a message about funny F & SF, I mentioned the dueling >scene in "The Princess Bride" (at the Cliffs of Insanity, where the >Man In Black says, "See, I'm not left-handed either!") which had >been excerpted for Spider Robinson's anthology "The Best Of All >Possible Worlds", I remembered a story I had read recently, >probably in Analog, probably 1975 or 1976. Anyway, what I >remembered was that the story had been tongue-in-cheek, and that >the duel scene was in there, copied almost exactly except starring >the main character. Anybody remember this at all? I know it's not >much to go on. There's a scene of this type in "Cat's Have No Lord" where the hero, Catseye Yellow, is dueling with someone rated as the best Swordsman in the land. Since Yellow is lefty, the other guy starts out lefty, and begins losing. So he finally reveals that he's really not lefty, and takes Catseye apart. Finally, Catseye steps back, announces that he's really not lefty either, and tosses his sword to his right hand. This surprises the other man enough that Yellow manages to kick him in the groin, and then return the sword to his left hand and hit him with it. ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 86 16:19:03 GMT From: unccvax!gbf@caip.rutgers.edu (Gregory B Fidler) Subject: Re: Rocky Horror Picture Show query From: Chris Heiny > I need to know the words to "Over at the Frankenstein Place" [I > think that's the title] - the third song of the film, sung as Brad > & Janet are trudging thru the rain. It would be of most use if I > knew which lines were sung by what character. Can any of you RHPS > fans out there help me? Please reply directly to me, rather than > to the net. This was the only way our system wanted to let me reply, but anyway I have the soundtrack for the "Rocky Horror Show" which is from the stage version. Included with this album was an insert which contain the words for all the songs on the album. All the songs that were in the movie are on this album along with at least one that was not in the movie. There are some differences in the words of a few of the songs, but most of them remained unchanged. If you could give me a mailing address, I will send a xerox copy of the insert to you. Gregory B. Fidler Mechanical Engineering UNCC Charlotte NC 28223 ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 86 03:55:12 GMT From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) Subject: Re: Star trek quote >JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Jim White) writes >> 37. "He knows, Doctor. He knows." >The quote you mention comes from the episode 'Tomorrow is >Yesterday' when Edith Keeler is run down by a car. Kirk prevented >Bones from saving her and Bones asks Kirk, 'Do you know what you've >done'. Spock follows with the quote. The quote was from the episode with Edith Keeler, but the title of that episode was "The City on the Edge of Forever". "Tomorrow is Yesterday" was the episode in which the Enterprise went back in time to the sixties. Brian Yamauchi ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu BITNET : BY04@CMUCCVMA DECNET : BY04@CMU-CC-TF ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 86 14:16:45 GMT From: cad!jmm@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Westercon Does anyone have any information about Westercon (in San Diego, CA, sometime during the summer)? I used to have their address but no longer. Anything would be appreciated. James ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 May 86 0935-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #121 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 18 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 121 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (15 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 May 86 01:51:55 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Tolkien, inscription, Legolas (really Elvish-language Subject: trivia) ins_avrd@jhunix.UUCP (Victoria Rosly D'ull) writes: >Actually, his name was Legolas, which does indeed mean "greenleaf" >in Quenya (`Lego'="green" + `las, lasse'="leaf"). But it *is* Sindarin, or a dialectic variant of it. Free standing voiced consonants, like 'g', simply *do* *not* *exist* in Quenya, so the name cannot be Quenya. Actually, in one of the new books being published by Christopher Tolkien it is explained that the proper Sindarin form of the name would be 'Laigolas'. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 86 02:22:39 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Of the races of Middle Earth and the sources of myth Subject: [LONG] christe%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA writes: >Of Gandalf the Istar In LotR, Gandalf is explicitly identified as >an Istari, one of five Wizards ... The only other named Istari is >Radagast the brown, an expert on plants and animals. A minor nit. "Istari" is a (Quenya) *plural*, the singular is "Istar" (no '-i' suffix). The word means One of the Wise, hence Wizard. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 86 02:34:42 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Tolkein - Language question olsen@ll-xn.ARPA (Jim Olsen) writes: > "...There's a great fighter about, one of those > bloody-handed Elves, or one of the filthy _tarks_." > >I've speculated that "tark" is a corruption of "istari", and Snaga >is therefore suggesting that the 'great fighter' may be a Wizard. >Does anyone know if this interpretation is correct? Nice guess, but wrong. Tolkien himself states that "tark" is an Orcish corruption of the Quenya word "Tarcil", meaning "Scion of Kings", or more literally "Spark of Highness", which was used in Numenor for members of the royal house. Thus the word passed into Common and thence into Orcish, where it simply means Numenorean(that is Dunadan). "Snaga" the slave thought a Ranger was in the pass! Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 86 02:53:09 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: So much for writing without a reference.... christe%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA writes: > I used Morgoth rather than Melkor because the elvish name is more >familiar --to me, at least--, and I couldn't remember whether it >was Melkor or Melkur. Another little nit. "Morgoth" and "Melkor"(or Melcor) are *both* elvish. The former is Sindarin and means Dark Foe, the latter is Quenya and means Mighty One Arising(it is related to the Sindarin beleg = strong).. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 86 02:29:01 GMT From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Lindor) Subject: Inconsistency in the West-gate inscription: the answer A week ago I pointed out that there was indeed an error in the drawing of the inscription on the West-gate of Moria as it appears in _The Lord of the Rings_, and asked for guesses as to what it is. Here, now, is the answer. Incidentally, there is what some might call an error in the lower arch on the left-hand door. The bow on the second letter of the first word is not completely closed; one could almost read this as `inn', but there is no such word. That is not the error to which I referred, though; no, this error is much greater and more obvious. I gave a hint: The error is in the drawing itself. The mistake was no doubt a natural one; it probably occurred when Frodo was straightening up his notes. We can only guess, but I would say that he had a only rough sketch of the doors, or his memory, to guide him, and that when he drew the doors and wrote down their words, he inadvertently altered one. If you look at the sketch in _The Lord of The Rings_, you may note that the words forming the upper arch on the left-hand door read `Ennyn Durin Aran Moria' in Sindarin. But the actual inscription was `Ennyn Durin Aran Hadhodrond'! As Caranfin said to me, the halls of the Dwarves were not then called Moria. The doors bore the name that Celebrimbor used, and that was Hadhodrond. Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1415) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 86 00:25:42 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: LOTR confusion wall@gaynes.DEC (David F. Wall DTN 297-6882) writes: >In any case, I believe one said "friend" in dwarvish, not elvish, >although it's been a while since I read the books. As a matter of fact, the word "mellon" *is* elvish, Sindarin in fact. It is cognate with the High Elvish "melda" which meant 'loved one, beloved, dear friend'. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 86 21:07:46 GMT From: hsgj@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Dan Green) Subject: Gandalf and his Ring congdon@gargoyle.UUCP (Richard Congdon) writes: >[...] The Istari were supposed to encourage the Children of >Iluvatar to the good and not to despair; they were not supposed to >awe Elves, Men and Dwarves into submission. This was Gandalf's >particular strength and was further intensified by the Ring of >Fire. I recently re-read the hobbit and the trilogy and something strange occurred to me. When he possessed the ring, one of the "powers" Frodo got was the ability to see rings worn by other people. This is demonstrated when Frodo was in LothLorien, and could tell quite easily that the Lady Galadrial had one of the 3 elf rings. Now the question I have is this: Gandalf told Frodo early, early on in the first book to throw the great ring in the fire to see if the ring would melt (it didn't, obviously). This scene is one where Gandalf and Frodo are together, Frodo has the ring, and both are concentrating on the subject of rings. *** Why didn't Frodo see the Ring of Fire on Gandalf's finger? *** Actually, now that I think about it, why didn't Frodo see the ring when Gandalf was fighting the nasty balrog on the bridge of Moria. There clearly was an instance where G's ring should have been shining in fury, but Frodo (though he stared at the battle) didn't see anything. Granted, I haven't lost much sleep over this matter, but somehow it seems to me that Tolkien shoved the ring onto Gandalf at a later date and didn't bother to tell the readers (ie us) about it until Gandalf was getting on the ship to cross the ocean. If any of the "experts" can shed some light on the topic... Dan Green Bitnet: hsgj@cornella UUCP: {decvax,ihnp4,allegra,vax135}!cornell!batcomputer!hsgj Arpa: hsgj@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 86 03:44:07 GMT From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Gandalf (now Bombadil) mike@rlvd.UUCP (Mike Woods) writes: >sah@ukc.ukc.ac.uk (S.A.Hill) writes: >>Tom Bombadil and the River Daughter were >>probably Maia[r] as well. (See "A Tolkien Bestiary"). > >I don't see how this can be. Gandalf was frightened even to touch >the Ring because he knew he be ensnared by it. Tom Bombadil played >with it, twirling round his finger, with no concern; and at the >council of Elrond (I think) it is said that the ring could have no >hold on him. That suggests to me that Tom was even greater than >Sauron in all his malice! In THE LORD OF THE RINGS, Book Two, chapter ii "The Council of Elrond", J.R.R. Tolkien writes: ` . . . Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.' 'I know little of Iarwain save the name,' said Galdor; `but Glorfindel, I think, is right. Power to defy our Enemy is not in him . . .' In other words: Tom's tough, but not that tough. I haven't seen anything JRRT wrote that definitively stated what Tom Bombadil (Iarwain Ben-adar) was, but it seems to make sense that he was a Maia. pH ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 86 00:10:25 GMT From: gds@sri-spam.ARPA (Greg Skinner) Subject: Re: Tolkien "magic" barb@oliveb.UUCP (Barb Jernigan) writes: > Au contraire! I know of at least one instance, in _The Hobbit_ > where it was most certainly literal: Beorn. It's never exactly > clear whether he can choose his form or is a werebear (oh, gods, > that sounds terrible, aick!), but he certainly could shape-change. This has always puzzled me. How can Beorn change shape? The Beornings are supposed to have the same origins as the Rohirrim. I will have to look it up in the Silmarillion but I believe a man of one of the Three Houses of the Edain left Beleriand after someone had impersonated him, and from him came the men of Dale, the Beornings and the Rohirrim. None of these men have the power to change shape at all -- they are pure men, never granted special powers by the Valar that I know of. How is it that they can change shape? Unless it is just Bilbo's overactive imagination which makes him think that Beorn (a big hairy guy) is actually changing into bear-form, I don't see how the Beornings, being mortal, can change shape. gregbo ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 86 19:27:44 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Moria gate (again) allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >The dwarves had the mithril, but the elves knew how to use it. So >they hired the making of the West-gate out to an elf of Hollin >(when the West-gate looked out upon the fruitful land of Hollin, >home of High-Elves). The full inscription contains the author's >signature (the elf, not Tolkien), but I don't remember it and can't >look it up. Well, not exactly *hired*, the author was Celebrimbor himself, the very one who made the Rings of Power. I think of the West-gate as a cooperative effort between the Elves and the Dwarves. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 86 19:30:56 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: (Tolkien) Inscription on door wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA writes: > The one aspect that hasn't been mentioned is the merely practical >-- why wouldn't Gandalf have simply spoken the inscripted words >aloud, either while reading them initially or while explaining the >situation to the others in the party, and, by so doing, said the >word "mellon" (I believe that was it?) and so triggered the door's >opening? It wouldn't matter which of the punctuation-dependent >meanings of the phrase he believed; just saying the phrase itself >would mean that he spoke the word for 'friend' and the door would >have opened. > >Or am I missing something, due to it being so long since I read >LOTR? Well, I always assumed that the word had to be spoken in isolation rather than as part of connected speech. Anyone familiar with computer recognition of words will tell you that there is considerable difference between the two phonologically. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 86 19:05:43 GMT From: ulowell!lkeber@caip.rutgers.edu ( LAK) Subject: Re: Tolkien "magic" From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU >Tolkien "magic" is often less apparent and specific than most other >fantasy magic. For instance (as someone mentioned) the >shape-changing is hardly literal; it was more of an atmosphere >created (for example, when Gandalf wanted to impress on Bilbo the >importance of giving up the Ring in the one tense scene at the >beginning of _Fellowship_). The only specific magic I can think of >are Gandalf's fireworks and the invisibility the Ring confers. The >other magic is much more ephemeral, consisting mostly of >animatistic forces. In fact, some of the "magic" in Tolkien can be >likened to things we believe in, such as "charisma", "selling >power", etc. There are several other examples of magic in Tolkien's works. In LotR, there is Galadriel's magic mirror, and crystal. Also, the Palantirs, the Ring, and the Elvish swords which glow in the presence of Orcs. In The Silmarillion, Melian's defense of her forest, the Silmarils, and the Songs of Power. Most of these are not too ephemeral. Larry ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 86 21:03:56 GMT From: oliveb!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barb Jernigan) Subject: Re: Gandalf > Tom Bombadil played with [The Ring], twirling round his finger, > with no concern; and at the council of Elrond (I think) it is said > that the ring could have no hold on him. That suggests to me that > Tom was even greater than Sauron in all his malice! Not _necessarily_ greater, perhaps only immune. See previous postings on enigma. One might say that Bombadil is from another mythology altogether, so doesn't have to play by the "rules". >grin!< Barb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 86 15:10:42 edt From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: words on a door Various answers have appeared to the question of why somebody didn't just read aloud the inscription on the door to Moria, thereby opening it. Tolkien was not as much a technician of magic as some other fantasy authors (consider Garrett's TOO MANY MAGICIANS, for instance) although his work suggests that he understood that pulling magic out of a hat as a solution is just as destructive to a decent story as pulling a gadget out of a little black bag (or inventing one on the spur of the moment). But I would guess that he felt (maybe without formalizing it), as many authors do, that magic is a matter of \\intent//---mental orientation, if you will---not just mechanics (cf Garrett's "Black magic is a matter of symoblism and intent", and Theron Ware's statements (in Blish's BLACK EASTER) to the effect that many rituals were as much to condition the operator as to invoke a demon and that the explicit obedience of the operator was an active part of the spell). Thus simply reading the inscription aloud wouldn't have helped since such reading would not have been directed to/intended for the door. You can make an even stronger case for requiring some sort of intent in this case, since the door wouldn't be much use if it fell open every time somebody happened to say "friend" within earshot (and just what is earshot for a door anyway? Some door spells specifically require you to whisper into the keyhole. There's also the saying "Deaf as a post", although I don't think the Gates of Moria were post-and-lintel construction....) CHip (Chip Hitchcock) ARPA: CJH@CCA-UNIX uu: ...!{decvax, cbosgd, seismo!harvard, linus}!cca!cjh ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 86 00:44:00 GMT From: ucdavis!ccrrick@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Heli) Subject: Orcs Speaking of orcs having been created from elves... I guess the changes Morgoth must have made were radical in the extreme as elves reproduce the way humans do, but, as we learn in _The_Hobbit_, orcs spawn... rick heli UUCP: ... {ucbvax,lll-lcc}!ucdavis!ccrrick INTERNET: ucdavis!ccrrick@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 May 86 0821-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #122 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 19 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 122 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony (3 msgs) & Asimov (2 msgs) & Butterworth & Heinlein & McKiernan & Moorcock & L. Neil Smith & Societ SF, Films - This Island Earth (3 msgs), Television - Doctor Who (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Etymology & SF Tie-ins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 May 86 02:52:02 GMT From: griffith@pavepaws.berkeley.edu ("Cutter John" Griffith) Subject: Re: Adepts in the Apprentice Adept series I am a big fan of the Apprentice Adept series, and think it is one of the best sf/fantasy trilogies ever published. Opposing views can be sent to /dev/null, where they will be treated with appropriate respect. Back to the subject at hand, here is the list from one who has read the entire series at least thirty times. Black - Magic Powers were in creating thing from lines. Yellow - Created magic Potions. Brown - Created Golems. Orange - Magic manifested in the form of Plants. White - Invoked magic through runes and glyphs Red - Created magic Amulets Tan - Evil Eye Green - Invoked magic through hand gestures Translucent - Never clearly stated. Possibly water-related Blue - Magic summoned through verse. The more musical, the more powerful. > Another question, did Stiles (Blue) need to play music before he > voices his musical incantation? Also, what other types of magic > were there? I do not believe he HAD to sing. It merely had to rhyme. As I remember, when Stile was in the White Demesnes, Anthony said "'Monsters of ice,' he breathed, 'turn to mice!'", which turned them into rats. Considering that this was a spell directly opposing the will of another Adept in the other Adept's own Demesnes with no magic summoned by music, this shows the extent of Stile's power. Another point for observation is the fact that certain Adepts had spheres of specialty, and magic used in conjunction with or directed toward that sphere tended to give the spell more power. White's was ice (ice was never a mandatory element of her spells), Blue's was music, Translucent's was possibly water, and Yellow's seemed to be animals. >Anthony has said that he is interested in writing sequels to the >series. It seems obvious to me that what it will concern is >Stile/The Blue Adept's adventures on the other side of the OTHER >curtain (recall Stile's and Lady Blue's honeymoon to the West >Pole). What will he find there? Another rumor is that it will focus, at least partially, on the rise to power of Trool, the troll Adept. You can also figure that most, if not all of the Adepts will now turn their wrath on Stile for basically destroying their power. How will halving an Adept's power affect Brown, for instance? There is also Stile's son to keep in mind, as well as Sheen. Will he keep Proton in his stories? Jim Griffith griffith@pavepaws.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 86 19:16:33 GMT From: 6103014@pucc.BITNET (Harold Feld) Subject: Re: Blue adept question-- A few forgoten talents The Green Adept's powers were summoned by waving his hands. Don't forget the Tan Adept. He had the power of the evil eye (shoot laser blasts). I believe White's power was over cold and she could make Ice things. Stile did not have to play his Harmonica first, but music increased his power and gave him a magical aura. BITNET: 6090617@PUCC UUCP: ...ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET!6090617 ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 86 20:11:41 GMT From: cad!griffith@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Adepts Oh, I forgot. The Yellow Adept also mentions the existence of the Purple and Gray Adepts while talking to Stile at the Unolympics, but she doesn't do more than acknowledge that they exist. Jim Griffith griffith@pavepaws ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 86 15:28:07 GMT From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: NOT SO HUMUROUS SF Eric writes that he did not enjoy Asimov's DEATH OF A FOY. I thank him for bringing it up. The mere mention of that story always brings a smile to my face. The punnish short-short is a recognized sub-genre of sf and, to my mind, FOY is the greatest example of that type of story. As they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Yours for more puns, Robert J. Sawyer in Toronto c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 May 86 17:42:24 edt From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: asimov and daughters Attempting to determine an author's personal preferences from characters in his/her books is dangerous even with such opinionated authors as Heinlein; in Asimov's case I wouldn't read anything particular into Fastolfe's preference for daughters over sons. \\However//, Asimov's autobiography makes very obvious his preference for his daughter over his son---the son is (for instance) dismissed as being not up to college (despite Asimov's grudging acknowledgement of the son's intelligence) while the way he dotes on his daughter shows where the few genuine JAPs come from. It's a wonder she turned out to be (by outside accounts) a relatively decent human being, the way he slobbered over her.... ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 86 04:00:43 GMT From: reed!soren@caip.rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen) Subject: Re: Moorcock (TIME OF THE HAWKLORDS) boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes: >Actually, Moorcock did *not* write TIME OF THE HAWKLORDS, though he >is erroneously co-credited. His "co-author", Michael Butterworth >wrote the book alone, based on an idea by Moorcock. The publishers >(both British and American) obviously felt that Moorcock's name on >the by-line would help sell more books. The sequel was properly >credited to Butterworth alone. There was supposed to be a third >novel, LEDGE OF DARKNESS, but I'm not sure if it was ever >published. Okay, I'll bite. I had never heard of any sequel. What's the title? Was it ever released in this country? in paperback? Has Butterworth ever written anything else, by the way? Except for TotH, I'd never seen or heard of him. Have A Nice Day, Soren Petersen ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 86 23:19:32 GMT From: bakerst!bob@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob White) Subject: Re: RAH Future History: The po' boy's collection ph@wucec2.UUCP writes: > bryan@druhi.UUCP (BryanJT) writes: >>I saw nothing in "Friday" to indicate any connection with any of >>the other Future History stories. In fact, in many ways it is >>inconsistent with the other stories (living artifacts, artificial >>people, the particular sequence of planets being colonized, the >>kind of spacecraft/power supply being used, etc.). > > It is, however, in the same universe as one of his earlier >short stories (and damn! for the life of my I can't remember the >title--and it was even mentioned here, quite recently, I think). >You know--the one with "Kettle-Belly" Baldwin and the supermen. The short story is "GULF". >>And even possibly (I haven't read it yet): >> >> The Cat Who Walks Through Walls It is - it uses characters from "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress", "The Rolling Stones", "The Number Of The Beast", not to mention parts of their plots. I've probably missed a few stories, also... Bob White Mail: 5123 Ramillie Run Usenet: ihnp4!kitty!bakerst!bob Winston-Salem, NC 27106 Phone: (919) 924-0975 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 May 86 00:08:26 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: "The Iron Tower" trilogy I haven't commented on these books in this forum, but, since some discussion has arisen about them, I felt I had to add my piece. (Particularly ocnsidering the presence of the author on the net, and the good principle that one shouldn't say something behind someone's back that one is unwilling to say to their face.) I bought all three books before reading a word of any of them, having heard of their existence on the net and being impressed with their cover art. Moreover, I hadn't heard anything bad about them, so I figured they'd be OK. I took the first of them on a long plane trip as my only reading material. After about twenty pages, I gave up on it and searched the airline magazine for half-interesting articles. An hour or two later, having exhausted the magazine and the leaflet describing the plane's safety features, I tried "The Dark Tide" again, but could only last another ten pages. It was a long plane trip, but no reading material at all struck me as better than "The Dark Tide". My reaction to the first thirty pages of this book, all of it I am able to comment on, is that it is shamelessly derivative and badly written. The best comparison I can come up with is "Bored of the Rings", but not done for laughs. I am sure that Mr. McKiernan worked long and hard on the book, but the results are dreadful, in my opinion. Only the most devoted fantasy addict would find anything of value in it, if the remainder of the trilogy is much like the beginning. Considering that a glut of fantasy exists, much of it at least mediocre, wasting one's time on "The Iron Tower" is hard to justify. The next time I get to a second hand paperback store, I intend to turn in these books for whatever I can get. I wrote a detailed critique of what I dislike about what I read of "The Dark Tide", but, on rereading it, posting it seemed unnecessary. Let me merely state that this book is one of the few I have read that engendered in me a desire to throw it across the room, a desire I satisfied as soon as I got home from my plane trip. Flinging it against a wall gave me the most pleasure I got from "The Dark Tide". Peter Reiher ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 86 02:17:03 GMT From: jacob@renoir.berkeley.edu (Jacob Butcher) Subject: Re: Eternal Champion link ups Actually, I first realized that Moorcock tied all of his works together when I read Glorianna, and the tip off was a minor character in the book with yet another Jerry Cornelius sound alike name. He also had a cat; I don't know if that's relevant, but for some reason I remember that. jacob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 May 86 17:37:48 edt From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: L. Neil Smith's universe Contrary to a statement in SFL 11.117, HER MAJESTY'S BUCKETEERS (?) is in fact part of LNS's Libertarian alternate universe. In his mercantile novel (KOBAYASHI MARU?!?), which takes place a generation or so after PROBABILITY BROACH and VENUS BELT (and in which the offspring of Win and Clarissa Bear are featured) the good-guy Libertarians rescue a few of the tripeds from their outraged fellows. NB: I was told by Darrel Schweitzer that (putting it mildly) LNS's primary interest is guns; he appears to have to come to libertarianism through being an absolutely whacko gun-lover. It shows in passages in several of his books. Note also that Jane Fonda isn't his only target (given his politics, that's hardly surprising) although the anagram was a rather crude expression compared with Voltaire Malaise in BELT (no bells? hint: a German word for ill-health is "cronkeit" (sp?)). ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 86 19:32:43 GMT From: sigma!bill@caip.rutgers.edu (William Swan) Subject: Soviet Science Fiction Schneider.wbst@Xerox.COM writes: >Back in the 1980 time frame I bought a collection of short stories >under the header of Soviet SF. The stories in this edition were by >Kiril Bulshyev (probably misspelled that), and the back cover >promised more collections by different Russian authors. I haven't >seen any others, and haven't written to the publisher yet, but has >anybody spotted these books? Where can I find them? There were several books published, from sometime in the early 70's through the late 70's, as I recall. I bought several (all I could find). Bulychev's was among them. I haven't seen any of the books on the shelves for a while, so I have to assume they aren't around any more (sigh). Speaking of Russian authors, has anybody heard of anything from the Strugatski brothers (Arkady and Boris?) lately? I really enjoyed _Hard_to_be_a_God_, as well as many other works of theirs, but again haven't seen anything on the shelves in a long while.. ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 86 20:04:23 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: THIS ISLAND EARTH Didn't they show clips from _This Island Earth_ in one of the Spielberg movies (Explorers, or something like that)? Implications are that it exists, even though it might not be available. david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 86 15:52:27 GMT From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) Subject: Re: THIS ISLAND EARTH I have seen this movie within the past 5 years, at least several times. It does exist. It was on our local tv station Channel 9, WOR. Jonathan D. Trudel arpa: trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4,pyrnj,pyramid}!topaz!trudel ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 86 19:57:22 GMT From: vaxwaller!barry@caip.rutgers.edu (Barry Nesmith) Subject: Re: THIS ISLAND EARTH I've got This Island Earth on tape. It plays on a local San Francisco channel at least every 3 or 4 months. I'm sure I've also seen it in the local Thrifty's and several supermarkets. It's been with the other tapes of movies that are in the public domain I believe. It goes for about 10 or 11 bucks. You might try Publishers Clearing House or one of those other book mail order places. They usually carry some videotapes and have a number of the public domain movies. Also, you might try some record or book stores in your area. Though somewhat dated, TIE is a classic 50's SF film. It was The Man From Glad's first starring role :-) Barry Nesmith ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 86 10:05:28 GMT From: glasgow.glasgow!hotchkis@caip.rutgers.edu (Graham Hotchkiss) Subject: Re: Doctor Who From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson) >The point is that the Face could not have been the Fourth Doctor's >since he hadn't yet been to Leela's planet in that incarnation. Simple , He goes there in the future! Notice that we may think that all of a particular doctors adventures are limited to those screened but this cannot be so as in " Three Doctors" and the latter one involving 5 or 6 and their respective partners, they are seen to be doing other activities.Therefore it seems that when a doctor regenerates it is perhaps the splitting of parralel future possibilities. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 May 86 08:00 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Who again? Cc: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU >>Who is the Doctor's wife? Who is his son/daughter?" Stuff like >>that. Answers? I've always assumed that the Doctor was single and that his first companion, his "granddaughter" was actually another, probably unrelated, younger Time Lord, who posed as his granddaughter to explain their relative ages to the Earth people they were living with. In fact, have we seen anything to indicate that Gallifreyans have an institution such as marriage? The only indication at all that I can think of is Andred and Leela, and, Leela being alien, I'm not sure that that tells us anything about Time Lords. And, who knows how Time Lords reproduce? Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Thu 15 May 86 13:40:42-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #114 I don't know where Jack Vance found the word "erb" either. Probably he made it up. My favorite etymology, though, is Edgar Rice Burroughs' initials. Bard ------------------------------ Date: Fri 16 May 86 07:51:56-MDT From: Sue Tabron Subject: Re: SF Tie-ins Cargo Master Dane Thorsen is from several old Andre Norton novels - can't remember titles, they're all at home. He started as an apprentice, though, and worked his way up thru various novels. Sue ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 May 86 0843-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #123 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 19 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 123 Today's Topics: Books - Aldiss & Cherryh & Heinlein & Moorcock (2 msgs) & Spider Robinson & Zelazny & Footfall & Soviet Sf, Films - James Bond, Television - Quote Source & Doctor Who, Miscellaneous - Etymology of Words (2 msgs) & Great Literature ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 May 86 04:36:57 GMT From: ellis@sage.cs.reading.Ac.Uk (Sean Ellis) Subject: Re: Helliconia Summer Yes, there definitely will be a sequel to Helliconia Summer. It will be called Helliconia Winter, and should conclude the Helliconia trilogy. I have only read "Spring", but talked to Brian Aldiss at its launch about the series. ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 86 11:54:11 GMT From: dec-akov68!boyajian@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: re: Cherryh portrait From: ingres.Berkeley.EDU!kalash (Joe Kalash) > cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa writes: >> David Cherry (the 'h' on CJ's name is an attachment) is >>beginning to become a success as a commercial SF artist. He got >>breaks from Fantasia Press (in addition to the above, they did a >>special edition of her two ]elf[ books, ? and THE TREE OF SWORDS >>AND JEWELS, with illos by him) and is now getting > > First it is Phantasia Press, second they have put out (by Cherryh): > [...] > The last two have David Cherry covers. Neither The Tree of Swords > and Jewels, nor Dreamstone have been done by Phantasia. No, but a part of THE DREAMSTONE *was* published in a small press edition in 1981 by Don Grant, under the title EALDWOOD, and it was illustrated by David Cherry. I believe that this was Cherry's first professional art assignment (at least in the sf field). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: [Find your own path to...] !{decvax|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ****Note new UUCP address**** <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 86 21:48:37 GMT From: 6103014@pucc.BITNET (Harold Feld) Subject: Heinlein As near as I can follow, Heinlein's works can be divided into three major catagories. 1- Future History 2-Utopia novels 3-None of the above. The works in the F.H have already been listed, but here they are again: The Man Who Sold The Moon; The Cool Green Hills of Earth; Revolt in 2100; M.C.; TEFL. The story "Menace From Earth" from the collection MFE also fits in. Friday might fit because of references to Luna Free State. If that's true then "Gulf", the story featuring "Keatle Belly" Bailey is also in there. The two stories that were meant to be included but were never written are: Stone Pillow and Fire Down Bellow. FDB relates the rise of Nedemiah Scudder while SP talks about the begginning of the resistance movement. The best summary of the FH is "Future History", a filk by "Filthy Pierre" printed in the Nesfa Hymnal. The books in the utopia section are relatively few. They include Starship Troopers, Beyond This Horizon, All the Juveniles (defined as Utopias because the Good are always rewarded, the bad are always caught, and everything is 'nifty' in the end.) Possibly MIAHM (model of a perfect revolution, but this is stretching it.) In the last category we have: Puppet Masters (the Ultimate Classic), Menace From Earth, The UPOJH, and JACODJ. Unfortunately, I have not read:IWFNE so I can't place it. Last, there is the mysterious shadow region of NOTB and TCWWTW. These two books tie together EVERYTHING Heinlein or any one else has ever written. The Burroughs and their time space Do-hickey (whose name escapes me for the moment) base themselves on Tertius and use Hazel Stone as an agent. They can go any where/any when. (Dr Who, eat your hearts out.) Looking back, I see I forgot to place SIASL (the worst Heinlein ever) and Glory Road (one of the best). Both go in category 3. By the way, does Heinlein ever go to conventions? Which ones? ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 86 12:00:52 GMT From: dec-akov68!boyajian@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Moorcock & Blue Oyster Cult From: uvm-gen!haviland (Tom Haviland) >In the same vein, a couple of Blue Oyster Cult songs, >_Veteran_of_the_Psychic_Wars_ and _Black_Blade_ were cowritten by >Moorcock. _Black_Blade_ seems to be about Elric, with lots of >references to the sword controlling him and the like. I don't know >if _Veteran_ is about any specific story, but it appears the the >soundtrack to _Heavy_Metal_. Both songs can also be found on (I >think) BOC's album _Cultosaurus_Erectus_. Good tunes, too. No, "Veteran..." isn't based on any Moorcock story, and it is on FIRE OF UNKNOWN ORIGIN. You're right about "Black Blade". They can both (I think both, definitely "B.B.") also be found on EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL LIVE. Incidentally, on the most recent BOC album, CLUB NINJA, is a song titled "The Shadow Warrior", co-written by Eric Van Lustbader. Presumably, it's based on EVL's "Sunset Warrior" series. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: [Find your own path to...] !{decvax|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ****Note new UUCP address**** ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 86 20:58:05 GMT From: spp2!urban@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Eternal Champion link ups, also Tolkien In case anyone cares, "Corum e Jhalen Irsei" is an anagram of "Jeremiah Cornelius". This version of Corum's full name did not appear in the first edition of the Swords trilogy, I'm told. Of course, "Jerusalem rhino ice" is also an anagram for Jeremiah Cornelius, so it may all be an accident :-) Of course, one could also argue that Tolkien's "Turin Turambar" is another incarnation of the Eternal Champion; he's got this black sword, has an incestuous relationship with his sister, and eventually commits suicide. I wonder if maybe Moorcock, who dislikes JRRT's work in general, might find he likes this particular tale? More seriously, I wonder if Moorcock was in any way influenced by the Finnish tale of Kullervo, from which Tolkien derived some aspects of Turin's story (by way of the Volsung Saga). Mike Urban ...!trwrb!trwspp!spp2!urban ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 86 13:52:12 GMT From: mmm!cipher@caip.rutgers.edu (Andre Guirard) Subject: MELANCHOLY ELEPHANTS query I see from "Books in Print" that there are two "elephants" books by Spider Robinson, "Melancholy Elephants" and (I think) "Melancholy Elephants and Others." Can anybody tell me (via e-mail, preferably) whether these are two distinct books or whether the second is just the first with some stuff added? Andre Guirard ihnp4!mmm!cipher ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 86 23:16:26 GMT From: ur-tut!aptr@caip.rutgers.edu (The Wumpus) Subject: Similarities between stories I have just started reading Roger Zelazny's book _Dilvish_the_ Damned_ and couldn't help noticing that the stories about how Jelerak started out in white magic, but then slipped into black magic and became one of the strongest wizards resembles the stories of how Darth Vader from SW fame started out. Any comments? ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 1986 10:59:38-EDT From: clapper@NADC Subject: Footfall Okay, who's read _Footfall_? I just finished my copy, and here's a brief, non-spoiler opinion: Like _Lucifer's Hammer_, I had a hard time putting the book down. It flowed well, and Niven and Pournelle made it fairly easy for me to identify with the characters. The ending seemed rather abrupt, though. After 574 pages, I wanted things to be resolved a little more cleanly. Next? Brian Clapper ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 86 12:23:26 GMT From: dec-akov68!boyajian@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Soviet sf From: Schneider.wbst@Xerox.COM > Back in the 1980 time frame I bought a collection of short stories > under the header of Soviet SF. The stories in this edition were > by Kiril Bulshyev (probably misspelled that),... It's Kirill Bulychev, which is a pseudonym of Igor Mojeiko. > ...and the back cover promised more collections by different > Russian authors. I haven't seen any others, and haven't written > to the publisher yet, but has anybody spotted these books? Where > can I find them? Macmillan did a number of books at around that time under the banner "The Best of Soviet Science Fiction". I'm pretty sure the Bulychev collection you're referring to was part of that series. I don't think that most (if any) of the series is still in print. Unfortunately, I don't really have the time to dig up a list of titles. Maybe later. You might be better off writing to the publisher, though, to find out what's still in print. Another suggestion is to check with a major public library in your area; it's bound to have at least some of the books. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: [Find your own path to...] !{decvax|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ****Note new UUCP address**** <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 17 May 1986 01:50:32-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Bond chronology From: Robert Hunter > I'm looking for a title listing of all the Bond films beginning > with "Dr. No" and ending with "A View To a Kill" along with the > year they were released. Can anyone oblige? Most of the Bond films are only marginally, if at all, sf, but what the hell... DR. NO [1962] Sean Connery FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE [1963] " " " GOLDFINGER [1964] " " " THUNDERBALL [1965] " " " CASINO ROYALE [1967] * David Niven YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE [1967] Sean Connery ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE [1969] George Lazenby DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER [1971] Sean Connery LIVE AND LET DIE [1973] Roger Moore THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN [1974] " " " THE SPY WHO LOVED ME [1977] " " " MOONRAKER [1979] " " " FOR YOUR EYES ONLY [1981] " " " OCTOPUSSY [1983] " " " NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN [1983] * Sean Connery A VIEW TO A KILL [1985] Roger Moore Next: THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS [1987] Findlay Light * Not from the same studio as the others. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: [Find your own path to...] !{decvax|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ****Note new UUCP address**** <"Filmography is my pastime"> ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 86 19:54:00 GMT From: wsmith@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU Subject: KBN Klaatu Barada Nikto What famouse TV show did this phrase come from (although not originally)? ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 86 20:18:25 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Who again? Jon Pertwee had a theory that the Master was the Doctor's brother. How else to explain two extremely capable (but not always competent) super-scientists who continually try to do one another in, but always fail. They might have done something with this, but the actor who played the master died. david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 86 19:02:13 GMT From: 6103014@pucc.BITNET (Harold Feld) Subject: RE: the absolutely positively hopefuly real origin of Subject: filksong From: CC004039%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU >When I first heard the word, I though it was "FILCHsong", not >"FILKsong". The obvious origin being that though the lyrics of >such songs are original, the tunes are almost always FILCHED from >popular pieces of music! Actualy, many filks have original words and *music*. (i.e. Horsetammers Daugther (Somebody plaese tell me who wrote that one). The origin of the word filk dates back to a long ago NASFIC. The words "Folk Songs" were misprinted on the program as "Filk Sings". The rest is, of course, history..... Harold Feld 6103014 at PUCC p.s. Any filkers out there? ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 86 21:06:48 GMT From: warwick!kay@caip.rutgers.edu (Kay Dekker) Subject: Re: orichalks, mentioning "grue" and "deodand" From: LINDSAY@TL-20B.ARPA >... Vance's forests are populated by erbs, grues, deodands and >leucomorphs, and his swamps contain rat's-lettuce and throttlehemp. >A grue is no doubt gruesome white shape sounds scary enough; and >deodand turns out to be an archaic word, referring to a thing used >in a murder, and presented to the Church. The grue is a sinister, lurking presence in the dark places of the earth. His favorite diet is adventurers, but its insatiable appetite is tempered by its fear of light. No grue has ever been seen by the light of day, and few have survived its fearsome jaws to tell the tale. "Zork", a computer adventure game. However, the use of "grue" with which I am familiar is as an archaism for "crane" (the bird, not the artifact). There is a French phrase (hovering at the back of my mind) "pied de grue", which implies that "grue" might well have a cognate in French... unfortunately, the Larousse isn't here... I might well be wrong. Deodand? easy one: not *quite* just a thing used in a murder, rather (according to English law) a personal chattel, which, having being the immediate cause of death of a person (as likely a rickety stepladder as a breadknife!), was made forfeit to the Crown to be used for pious purposes. I believe the law dropped into nullity and was repealed in the mid 1840s. The etymology of leucomorph is obvious, but I'm puzzled about erbs... I can't think of anything at the moment. Help, anyone? I assume rat's-lettuce is a slightly more toothy variant of lamb's-lettuce? and throttlehemp is probably the stuff growing in our garden that I always feel uneasy about getting close enough to to prune... Kay. ... mcvax!ukc!warwick!kay ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 May 86 01:25:58 PDT From: pnet01!bnw@nosc.ARPA (Bruce N. Wheelock) Subject: "Great" literature uwmacc!oyster@caip.rutgers.edu (Vicarious Oyster) writes: >I'm proud to declare that reading SF is entertainment for me, and I >don't want or need Joyce (or even readable stuff like Kafka or >Montaigne) during *my* leisure time. However, those people who >malign other "good read" authors seem strangely silent when the >topic of Brust comes up. Is it merely because he might be >listening? God forbid Mr. Brust find out somebody actually reads >his books for entertainment, and doesn't find deep meaning in 'em! Actually, I think Steven Brust had already made it pretty clear that he isn't writing with the intent of becoming one of those musty authors who only get read when English instructors force them on captive students. Except for critics and teachers, nobody reads professionally; reading is either a leisure activity or an educational one. The point you make about not wanting or needing Joyce, Kafka, Montaigne, or such like, during your leisure time is exactly what's wrong with so-called "great literature." The stuff is so stodgy and incomprehensible that it cannot survive outside the sterile atmosphere of the classroom. Malign "good read" authors all you want. The fact is, however, that writing is meant to be read, otherwise it is just self-indulgent prattle. If people won't read what an author creates because the material is appealing, the author is producing word collections, not literature. Deep meaning is lost if the book sits on a shelf. None of this, by the way, even touches on the implied notion, which I dispute, that science fiction and fantasy works lack hidden meanings. I hope nobody will suggest that elements like syllogism and allegory cannot exist in a work until some ivy-covered academician rules it so. Bruce N. Wheelock {ihnp4,cbosgd,sdcsvax,noscvax}!crash!vista!pnet01!bnw ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 May 86 0910-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #124 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 19 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 124 Today's Topics: Books - Aldiss & Asimov & Garrett & Gilliland (2 msgs) & Heinlein & Moorcock & Footfall (2 msgs), Films - This Island Earth (2 msgs) & James Bond, Television - Doctor Who, Miscellaneous - Publishers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 May 86 12:41:16 GMT From: pete@stc.co.uk Subject: Re: Helliconia Summer ellis@sage.UUCP (Sean Ellis) writes: >Yes, there definitely will be a sequel to Helliconia Summer. It >will be called Helliconia Winter, and should conclude the >Helliconia trilogy. I have only read "Spring", but talked to Brian >Aldiss at its launch about the series. "Helliconia Winter" is available in hardback in the UK - I got it out of my local library a few months ago. The paperback can't be far away. It's a good finish to the trilogy. Peter Kendell ...!mcvax!ukc!stc!pete ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 86 05:10:58 GMT From: ritcv!iav1917@caip.rutgers.edu (alan i. vymetalik) Subject: (Re: Another Foundation novel) and Asimov's "Future History" Ok, all you Foundation fans out there among the flow of electrons.... From the, ahem, horse's mouth...After "Foundation and Earth", Asimov has titled, outlined, and planned ANOTHER FOUNDATION novel entitled, at this time, PRELUDE TO FOUNDATION. (I was wondering when he was going to do that!). In a similar vein of thought ... Waldenbooks' Otherworlds Club produces a bi-monthly newsletter called "Xignals" and in it is a column on Asimov's linking of his numerous "Robot", "Galactic Empire", and "Foundation" series together to form his conceptual and consistent "Future History". In the article there is information from a "Locus" article in which 'Asimov outlined the complete chronology of his future.' 'The "Robot" and "Foundation" series began as stories in "Astounding" back in the early '40s, and were only later assembled into connected sequences. It was only in 1982 that Asimov started to reveal an even more comprehensive unity behind his books.' For more info, please grab a hold of the newsletter. Sorry, I don't know which "Locus" issue the Asimov article was in. So, at this time, Asimov is quoted as saying this is his current "future history" outline: 1 - The Complete Robot (1982) 2 - The Caves of Steel (1954) 3 - The Naked Sun (1957) 4 - The Robots of Dawn (1983) 5 - Robots and Empire (1985) 6 - (A so-far untitled linking novel, planned but not yet written) 7 - The Currents of Space (1952) 8 - The Stars, Like Dust (1951) 9 - Pebble in the Sky (1950) 10 - Prelude to Foundation (planned) 11 - Foundation (1951) 12 - Foundation and Empire (1952) 13 - Second Foundation (1953) 14 - Foundation's Edge (1982) 15 - Foundation and Earth (in progress) [due this fall] There are some omissions and outright disclaimers. Asimov refers to "The End of Eternity" (which could have started the series) as 'a legend' in "Foundation's Edge." And, it should be noted, says the article, that most of his short stories 'are totally outside of the series.' I just thought I'd pass this along. I hope it is found to be interesting to Asimov fans... Enjoy! alan i. vymetalik bitnet: aiv1974@ritvaxd uucp: {allegra,seismo}!rochester!ritcv!iav1917 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 May 86 20:28:41 PDT From: lah%miro@BERKELEY.EDU (Cmndr. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Re: Randall Garrett I fear you'll be unhappy then. There won't be any more Lord Darcy books. Randall got a degenerative brain infection (or something like that) which destroyed the parts of the brain which are in charge of short-term memory. Can you imagine how frustrating it must have been for a man who had been brilliant with words and ideas to come up with an idea and forget it as he was writing it down? Anyway, it was Vicki who finished the books. I am sorry to hear she isn't sticking it out with him any more, though, for as far as I know he is still alive (if not well). Seems kind of like a cop-out, even though I'm sure it must have been hard for her to stay married to him remembering what he had been like before. Regards, Leigh Ann lah@miro.BERKELEY.EDU ...!ucbvax!miro!lah ------------------------------ Date: Sat 17 May 86 23:10:35-EDT From: Laurence Brothers Subject: Good Book! WIZENBEAK, by Alexis A. Gilliland, just out from Bluejay in trade is a very good book. Don't be misled by the stupid cover blurb, or the truly idiotic first-page come-on ("If you like Myth Adventures or Xanth..." -- there is no resemblance to either), or even the cutesy cover illio, this book is a good SERIOUS fantasy novel with a very interesting culture that smacks of both imaginary European and Japanese medieval traditions (like in a seemingly pseudo-European kingdom, nobles wear the paired samurai swords and say things like "Pen and sword, in accord". Bluejay has done such a bad job of marketing, it could stand as a shining example of how to screw over an author. If I were Gilliland they would already be in court.... In fact, with the messages badmouthing Baen Books (who I don't attempt to defend), I am surprised no one has mentioned Bluejay. They seem to have something of a reputation among booksellers for screwing up consignments, shipping dates, etc., and this terrible job on WIZENBEAK is just another piece of evidence of their laziness. Well, back to WIZENBEAK, I haven't even finished the book, but paused in the middle (I'll finish it tonight) because of the most egregious typo/typesetting error I have ever seen in a book. This is from the middle of a paragraph: Zeldones didn't fit -- the shelf was well short of six feet -- but he put restore "Marji and Derk"? I find it confusing as is on the shelf, and made himself comfortable sitting up against the wall as she went off to her bed in the other room. Obviously the second line is an editor's note, and its presence totally ruins the flow of the narrative. I'll rank it with any other of the typos mentioned previously in the discussion of typos in recent volumes. Just another reason to dislike Bluejay -- the thing is, though, they seem to print a lot of stuff I like, and can't find elsewhere until the mass market edition, which in some cases takes years, especially it seems, with Bluejay.... Laurence ------------------------------ Date: Sun 18 May 86 11:43:43-EDT From: Laurence Brothers Subject: Humf! (Wizenbeak II) Well, having finished the book, I am somewhat disappointed. The writing quality falls off, and there is too much summarization, the sort of thing that would be fixed by a good editor. The overall feeling I got was that the book was rushed into print without sufficient editing (surely even a cursory look at the galleys would have revealed the typo I mentioned in my last message). Also, there are some tongue-in-cheek episodes which don't just describe a humorous incident, they are the author's way of having a joke, and as such don't belong in a serious novel where people are dying all over the place. Furthermore, there are a number of minor plot elements and/or minor loose ends that I got the impression might pertain to parts of the story that were cut almost as if there was a dotted line in a few places....like there is a dragon seen in the middle of the book that doesn't appear again or affect the plot in any way at all.... Still, even with the faults I mention, WIZENBEAK is still worthwhile; some of the characters are refreshingly evil, and even the "good guys" are not so pristine.... If you look at the book one way, it is a thinly disguised criticism of certain events of modern history. Oh yeah, one more thing, Bluejay is charging $9 for a trade paperback -- not so long ago you could get hardcovers for that price, particularly sf hardcovers.... Laurence ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 May 86 20:16:34 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Subject: Re: Heinlein's Timelines Jon Leech (jon@csvax.caltech.edu || ...seismo!cit-vax!jon) writes: > Along with "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", "The Rolling >Stones", and (at least initially) "The Cat Who Walks Through >Walls". It's possible that "Red Planet" and "Podkayne of Mars" are >also in this universe (I recall a tenuous connection in "The >Rolling Stones", but it's been a long time since I read any of >them). From comments in 'Cat' it diverges from ours sometime after >1969, since Armstrong and Aldrin are mentioned as performing the >first lunar landing. The "tenuous connection" between "The Rolling Stones" and "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" that Jon speaks of is none other than Hazel Stone herself. In TMIAHM, Hazel is the orphan that gets adopted by the Davis clan. There is mention somewhere in the book of her marrying Slim Lemke, of the Stone clan. Her identity and past are confirmed by things Hazel says in both TRS (she is one of "Founders of the Revolution", or some such, and her full name is given as Hazel Meade Stone), and in "The Number of the Beast". Brent Chapman chapman@pavepaws.berkeley.edu ucbvax!pavepaws!chapman ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 86 08:19:12 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Eternal Champion From: sysdes!drw (Dave Wilson) > I'm not sure that a lot of the books claimed to perhaps be in the > Eternal Champion series really are, I just think Mr. Moorcock > enjoys putting nice little cross-references in! > > There are a considerable number of (perhaps questionably) > unconnected books, including _The Ice Schooner_,... Well, THE ICE SCHOONER certainly isn't connected if you're discounting just-cross-references. Konrad Arflane was mentioned as being another EC aspect in one of the (I think) Erekose books. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: [Find your own path to...] !{decvax|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ****Note new UUCP address**** ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 86 16:54:00 GMT From: hp-pcd!lori@caip.rutgers.edu (lori) Subject: Re: FOOTFALL >Now that FOOTFALL by Niven and Pournell is out in paperback and >those of us that make less than 100k can afford it: IS IT WORTH >IT???? > >I think early Niven is some of the best stuff ever written but I >never did finish THE MOTE IN GOD'S EYE. > >FOOTFALL is a biggie and I only have 23 years left till retirement. >I don't have much time left for mind candy and there are at least >half a dozen Elmore Leonard books waiting under my bed. Pardon me, but if you don't have time for "mind candy", why didn't you finish THE MOTE IN GOD'S EYE? You can't get much further from mind candy than that. Most of the other books that Niven wrote by himself were nothing more than fancy travelogues anyway (don't get me wrong; I liked them, they just didn't take much concentration to read). If you didn't like MOTE, you won't like FOOTFALL. But let me tell you, you're missing some of his best work!! Mark F. Cook hp-pcd!markc ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 86 03:07:00 GMT From: jimb@ism780 Subject: Re: FOOTFALL > FOOTFALL is a biggie and I only have 23 years left till > retirement. I don't have much time left for mind candy and there > are at least half a dozen Elmore Leonard books waiting under my > bed. Mind candy it is, of the cotton candy variety. A ho-hum plot with lots and lots of cardboard characters -- three or four are actually interesting. Jim Brunet ihnp4/ima/ISM780 hplabs/hao/ico/ISM780 sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ISM780C/ISM780 ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 86 12:38:02 GMT From: pete@stc.co.uk Subject: Re: THIS ISLAND EARTH rec@mplvax.UUCP writes: >Has anyone seen a print of THIS ISLAND EARTH in the last ten >years??? This is my all time favorite sf film from the 50's but I >have not seen it on TV or in festivals for at least 10-20 years. I >hope and pray that this classic is not lost forever. TIE is alive and well and living in the UK. It was shown by the BBC a year or so ago. I don't know if it's available on tape; I don't have a VCR any more so don't hire films. And yes, it is a great film, though slow to get going. I'd rank it with Forbidden Planet and War of the Worlds. The last 45 minutes are wonderful! BTW, there was a group called TIE who released a not-bad record in the UK a while back. Peter Kendell ...!mcvax!ukc!stc!pete ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 86 17:43:27 GMT From: jimn@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Jim Nesheim) Subject: Re: THIS ISLAND EARTH daver@sci.UUCP writes: >Didn't they show clips from _This Island Earth_ in one of the >Spielberg movies (Explorers, or something like that)? Implications >are that it exists, even though it might not be available. I believe that it was "E.T." that had those clips in it. I have seen "This Island Earth" within the past couple of years - its out there, but I guess its not a popular movie for local stations to pick up. Jim Nesheim Cornell Theory Center 265 Olin Hall, Cornell U Ithaca, NY 14853 (607)-255-8686 jimn@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu {rochester|cmcl2|uw-beaver}!{bullwinkle|gould}!batcomputer!jimn ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 86 22:25:26 GMT From: nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser) Subject: Findlay Light vs Pierce Brosnan For some time now there have been postings definitively stating that Findlay Light (sp?) was to be the new James Bond in "The Living Daylights." Nobody ever seemed to give a source for this information. However, the following article is from today's (5/18/86) Boston Globe, reprinted without permission. The new Bond (deleted) Nathan Glasser nathan@mit-eddie.uucp nathan@mit-xx.arpa ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_akaa@caip.rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee) Subject: Re: Who again? Date: 17 May 86 04:18:20 GMT >> "Who is the Doctor's wife? Who is his son/daughter?" > >Susan is said to be the Doctor's granddaughter, which leaves open >many possibilities, but somehow I doubt that they are really >related. Has anyone considered the possibility that the Doctor adopted a son or daughter once? This means that Susan can be the Doctor's granddaughter without there ever being a Mrs. Who.... (pure speculation, of course...) Kenneth Arromdee BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 86 03:15:00 GMT From: jimb@ism780 Subject: Re: Isaac Asimov, Robots of Dawn > Clearly, there should be the word "Earth" where I have a [*] > marked. This indicates that computer spelling checkers were used > almost exclusively, as this omission would easily have been caught > by a human reader. When even the top (in volume :-) author with a > bestseller has technical mistakes in his book, it makes you wonder > how much the publishers really care about presentation quality. Publishers 99-44/100% care about making money, and NOTHING else. While I think that it's semi-mythical that publishers once existed that cared about books per se, in today's conglameratized world they have gone the way of [insert favorite fantasy here]. Jim Brunet ihnp4/ima/ISM780 hplabs/hao/ico/ISM780 sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ISM780C/ISM780 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 May 86 0829-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #125 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 20 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 125 Today's Topics: Administrivia - New Service for Bitnet, Books - Tolkien (5 msgs), Miscellaneous - Pan Galactic Gargle Balsters & Great Literature ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 May 86 10:24 CST From: Saul Subject: New Service for Bitnet Thanks to some good people at TCSVM we now have a way for people on bitnet to get back issues of SF-LOVERS that they may have missed. Hopefully, we will also find a way to pass along some of the other files that have previously only been available to those with FTP capabilities. Now available from TCSSERVE@TCSVM (bitnet) the current volume of SF-Lovers along with other goodies. Please don't abuse the Server as the system is an end node downstream of a few bad phone lines. Excessive traffic will make them unpopular with other nodes in the path. If you want to take advantage of this facility, or need help in using it, please contact the following person for details: Dan Smith BITNET: SYSBDES@TCSVM ARPA: SYSBDES%TCSVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU UUCP: You Tell Me?? Ma Bell: (504) 865-5631 Real Paper: Tulane University Tulane Computer Services Attn: Dan Smith, Systems Group 6823 St. Charles Ave. New Orleans, LA 70118-5698 And now, on with the show.... Saul ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 86 01:26:56 GMT From: gargoyle!congdon@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Congdon) Subject: Re: Tolkien - another can of worms >As we all know, Elves are immortal, their lives being bound to >Middle-Earth and all that; so, *does the same apply to Orcs???* I >mean, all Orcs have, albeit *very* distantly, Elvish ancestors, so >do they share in the immortality? And what happens to a dead Orc? >Does it go to a special section of the Halls Of Nienor (sp?) and >get reborn later on, like Elves do (I think)? I think that the answer to your question is that they are immortal, and that the "bad old days" that they remembered were the end of the second age and the resulting Gondorian occupation after. The reason for my conclusion is that since they were Mordorian Orcs, the last war they were likely to have been in was at the end of the second Age. We see no mention of Orcs in the history of the third age until the War of the Ring. Certainly, if Orcs from Mordor went that far North, there would have been quite a stir in Gondor, and since the South Kingdom was not beset at that time of the Battle of the Five Armies, Turgon probably would have sent an army after them. Also, there seems to be the idea a long period in the phrase "bad old days". After the defeat of Sauron at the end of the Second Age and the construction of the watch towers, Orcs were certainly not extinguished, but must have been in hiding. (It was said that the towers were there to keep the evil things in, not others out.) As for the supposition that they were alive in the First Age, I don't think this is probable since the breaking of Thangorodrim and Morgoth's power was a rather cataclysmic event. If any Orcs survived that, they would have been extremely lucky. Richard Congdon Dept. of Education, Univ. of Chicago ....ihnp4!garogyle!paideia{richard,root} ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 86 05:06:08 GMT From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Nitpick; was Re: The Istari lkeber@ulowell.UUCP writes: >I thought Olorin was a Maiar of Lorien. By the way, Sauron was also >a Maiar of Aule. Please! "Maiar" is plural--"Maia" is the singular. Oh, incidentally: In THE SILMARILLION, "Valaquenta", "Of the Maiar", JRRT (Professor T.) writes: " Wisest of the Maiar was Olorin. He too dwelt in Lorien, but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience." This was the clearest reference I could find on the "affiliation" of Olorin. I don't think Maiar necessarily have to be identified with a particular Vala. pH ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 86 22:38:04 GMT From: gds@sri-spam.ARPA (Greg Skinner) Subject: Re: Tolkien - another can of worms The Silmarillion says that Orcs multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar. It doesn't say what happens to them after they die. I imagine since they were not created by the power of Iluvatar, they merely die, and do not pop up in the Halls of Mandos, or anywhere else. Orcs were involved throughout the Third Age, from the Disaster of the Gladden Fields up through the War of the Ring. (For examples, check out Appendix B of The Return of the King for the chronology of the Third Age.) It was not the uruks (Mordorian Orcs) that fought in those early wars -- these Orcs were based mainly in the Misty Mountains to prevent escapes by the Elves who lived in Lorien, Mirkwood or points east. It is also said in the Silmarillion that the Orcs of Beleriand perished in a great fire (paraphrased). Most likely those remaining Orcs fled Beleriand and eventually found the Misty Mountains, as did the Balrog, Shelob, etc. Supposedly, Sauron bred the uruks. gregbo ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 16 May 1986 10:33:11-PDT From: winalski%psw.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Paul S. Winalski) Subject: Tom Bombadil I think it is most likely that Tom Bombadil and the river daughter are Maiar. When Valinor was built, the Valar and most of the Maiar left Middle Earth to dwell there. Some remained behind or later left Valinor and returned to Middle Earth (e.g., Melian). Tom Bombadil tells the Hobbits that he was in the West of Middle Earth already when the Elves first came there. Since the Elves were the eldest of the Children of Illuvatar, Tom would have to be one of the Ainur. My belief is that he is one of the minor Maiar in service to Yavanna (the river daughter probably serves Ulmo or Uinen). There is further evidence of this at the end of The Lord of the Rings. When Gandalf and the Hobbits part company outside Bree, Gandalf tells them that he is going to have a long talk with Bombadil. He says something to the effect of "He is a moss-gatherer, and I have been a stone doomed to rolling. But my rolling days are over, and now we will have much to say to each other." Gandalf seems to consider the two of them akin. Bombadil's behavior towards the Ring says nothing about the extent of his power. Gandalf himself explained it to the Council of Elrond. It is not that Bombadil has a power over the ring, rather that it has no power over him. Things of craft and power (such as the ring) have no hold on his mind. The Ring was treacherous to Saruman and Gandalf not because they were Maiar, but because they were loremasters. The temptation that the Ring offered was power beyond the station of the possessor. Bombadil had no desire for power or lore beyond what he had already--he had set the bounds of his domain and desired only to remain within those bounds undisturbed. The Ring held no allure for him, nor was he capable of understanding its power over others. PSW ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 86 17:21:53 GMT From: marco@andromeda.RUTGERS.EDU (the wharf rat) Subject: Re: Tolkien "magic" S7YLF4%IRISHMVS@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes: > Tolkien "magic" is often less apparent and specific than most > other fantasy magic. For instance (as someone mentioned) the > shape-changing is hardly literal; it was more of an atmosphere > created (for example, The only specific magic I can think of are > Gandalf's fireworks and the invisibility the Ring confers. The > other magic is much more Gandalf often creates fire. What about enchanted swords, the Phial of Galadirel, etc. ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 86 16:08 PDT From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLLMFE.ARPA Subject: Latest and Greatest PGGB receipes! Well, since I mentioned that I was collecting the posted terran versions of the PGGBs I have been deluged with requests for them, so instead of mailing out 50 copies, I am reposting the mothers. Please cut this and save it for further brain damaging. I have only tried the Jupiter Sunrise, and I loved it. Unfortunately it was a weeknight, so we couldn't get carried away, but next time for sure! THE PAN GALACTIC GARGLE BLASTER The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy also mentions alcohol. It says that the best drink in existence is the Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster. It says that the effect of drinking a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster is like having your brains smashed out by a slice of lemon wrapped round a large gold brick. The Guide also tells you on which planets the best Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters are mixed, how much you can expect to pay for one and which voluntary organizations exist to help you rehabilitate afterward. How to make one... Take the juice from one bottle of Ol' Janx Spirit. Pour into it one measure of water from the seas of Santraginus V (Oh, that Santraginus seawater! Oh, those Santraginus fish!) Allow three cubes of Artutan Megagin to melt into the mixture (it must be properly iced or the benzine is lost) Allow four liters of Fallian marsh gas to bubble through it, in memory of all those happy hikers who have died of pleasure in the Marshes of Fallia. Over the back of a silver spoon float a measure of Qualactin Hypermint extract, redolent of all the heady odors of the dark Qualactin Zones, subtle, sweet, and mystic. Drop in the tooth of an Algolian Suntiger. Watch it dissolve, spreading the fires of the Algolian Suns deep into the heart of the drink. Sprinkle Zamphuor. Add an olive. Drink ... oh! but ... very carefully ... Now here are several Terran approximations on the theme... AKA The Moose River Hummer, courtesy of Diane Holt Mix equal parts in a shot glass... Bacardi 151 Peppermint Schnapps Galliano Throw it back at once! CAUTION: Never sip at it, it will only get mad at you and sip back. Make sure you have a ride home. AKA The Jupiter Sunrise (at least before it turns green), courtesy of Timothy Thomas For two mild Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters mix 1.5 jiggers golden or dark rum (That Ol' Janx Spirit) 0.5 jiggers Amaretto (Xamphour) 0.5 jiggers triple sec or Curacao (Santraginean water) 1.5 to 2 oz frozen OJ concentrate shake, strain into glasses with fresh ice add ginger ale or tonic to suit (bubbled through Fallian marsh gas) add a thin wedge of lemon float a bit of blue Curacao over the top of a silver spoon to keep it from sinking to the bottom (Qalactin Hypermint Extract) "olive" is probably one of those flexible terms like "jinnantonyx"; if you must have something, use a brandied grape fill a jar with fresh white grapes cover with 9 parts (or more) brandy 1 part powdered sugar seal and leave for several weeks Drink and enjoy the color change AKA The Blue Lagoon (an innocent name for a deadly concoction), courtesy of Iain Robertson Take a straight, chilled halfpint glass Add one measure of blue Curacoa Add two measures of Vodka Add one measure of Cointreau Make up to a half pint with lemonade Add crushed ice, lemon, straws, plastic umbrellas, etc. Drink (carefully, need we remind you) AKA The Suffering Bastard, courtesy Mark Lambert at the bar of YoYodyne, Inc. 1 oz Bacardi 151 rum 2 oz amber rum 2 oz light rum 1 oz triple sec (no sense wasting Cointreau on this...) spoonful brown sugar pinapple juice and OJ to fill a 16 oz glass juice of a lemon wedge of cucumber (for the purist) shake, pour in a tall glass over crushed ice, add little parasols, etc. drink (how? carefully, remember?) My version of Pan Galatic Gargle Blaster (try at your own risk), courtesy of Kenneth Leung: G*rd*n's g*n B*card*'s L*ght No Brand name intended, but I use only Sm*rn*ff's Vodka high quality stuff. Tr*ple Sec M*untain Dew Lime Juice or food dye Mix to your desired strength and color. /*NOT RECOMMENDED BEFORE DRIVING OR STEALING BLACK SPACESHIPS WHICH MAY BE RUNNING INTO THE SUN IN THE NEAR FUTURE */ A formula sent me by a friend for PGGBs is an easy one to remember: 1 part Scotch 1 part Gin 1 part Vodka 1 part Apple Cider (hard is optional, Martinelli's nonsparking or Farley's hard cider are recommended) When mixed properly, the mixture turns clear @ 10 seconds after mixed, w/just a hint of gold about it. Also, the semi official 'round town drink of the Dark Star UCSD science fiction club DarkStars: 151 & A&W root beer, 50/50. Not too awful bad, and rarely seems to cause hangovers. ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 86 19:20:00 GMT From: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu (Michaelntz) Subject: Re: "Great" literature For Bruce N. Wheelock > Actually, I think Steven Brust had already made it pretty clear > that he isn't writing with the intent of becoming one of those > musty authors who only get read when English instructors force > them on captive students. Except for critics and teachers, nobody > reads professionally; reading is either a leisure activity or an > educational one. The point you make about not wanting or needing > Joyce, Kafka, Montaigne, or such like, during your leisure time is > exactly what's wrong with so-called "great literature." The stuff > is so stodgy and incomprehensible that it cannot survive outside > the sterile atmos- phere of the classroom. Speaking as both an impending MA in English and Creative Writing, a freelance critic *AND* a long-time SF fan, I feel that rare and luscious need to flame you to cinders. Perhaps you find "great literature" stodgy and imcomprehensible, but I can assure you that hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people, in and out of classrooms, have disagreed. What you fail to realize is that most 'literature' is difficult, not as fluid to read, because it's old. The prose and speaking styles of Dickens, Twain and the like, require a little warmup to get used to. Then the stuff reads, and affects the reader, like the masterpiece calibre material it is. I do not feel that anyone is under any moral obligation to enjoy serious fiction, be it current or from a bygone era. Nor do I find anything inherently wrong with enjoying sleazo SF for its own sake - I have gobbled up all the Zelazny, etc., that exists. In rare cases, I would even say that there are SF writers who approach 'literature' status: Gene Wolfe's "Book of the Sun" tetralogy and Samuel Delany's "Dhalgren" being the prime examples. But most SF does not approach contemporary literature in what you quaintly call 'hidden meaning'. Serious fiction today - read almost entirely out of classrooms, which won't catch up for another 20 years - is incomparably superior to almost all SF, which is entertaining as all hell, but not nearly so profound an intellectual and emotional experience as, say, Jayne Ann Phillips' novel "Machine Dreams," or Toni Morrison's "Song Of Solomon," or Norman Mailer's "The Executioner's Song," or Gordon Lish's "Peru" or Grace Paley's "Later The Same Day" or Amy Hempel's "Reasons To Live" or E.L. Doctorow's "The Book Of Daniel" or Gabriel Marquez' "One Hundred Years Of Solitude" or Mark Helprin's "Winter's Tale" or Philip Roth's "The Ghost Writer." Or a hundred other fine contemporary writers of serious fiction. Get the point? If you, or anyone else, takes the attitude that all the above, plus their literary forebearers, Hemingway, Joyce, Kafka, Proust, Dreiser, et al, are 'stodgy and incomprehensible' then you probably A) haven't read very much, because such accusations aren't true, or B) you have become the classic American, weaned on TV and the movies, whose mind is incapable of concentrating for more than 10 minutes on the printed word - unless, of course, it's quick, easy, bright and entertaining, without making too much of a demand on your intellect, which describes most SF. I'll bet you don't like Wolfe, do you? *HE*, among all SF writers, may have produced the best literature. But speaking personally, as a reader, a critic, a writer and a lover of literature, who will probably spend the next fifty years of my life watching it die, replaced by the video image in the hearts of a generation of brainless numbheads - don't you DARE call great literature stodgy and incomprehensible. It was stodgy and incomprehensible geniuses like Shakespeare and Joyce who created the intellectual world that you live in, who invented the literary forms that pablum pulp writers like Stephen Donaldson (who I enjoy very much) and the like make their living off of. If you don't like great literature the failing is your own. Please don't insult those of us who have dedicated our lives to it. mike krantz ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 21 May 86 0857-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #126 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 21 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 126 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (3 msgs) & Kurtz & Doc Savage & Funny SF, Films - The New James Bond, Television - Doctor Who, Miscellaneous - The SCA and SF (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 May 86 19:06:29 edt From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: RAH multiverses >>[...FRIDAY is in the same universe is ["Gulf"]] > Along with "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", "The Rolling Stones", Nonsense. It has been argued that TMIaHM and Stones are in the same universe; as far as I've seen, this claim rests solely on the duplication of a redhead named Hazel Meade Stone. Since the HMS of Stones claims to have been a colonist while the one in TMIaHM was a creche orphan this is unlikely. RAH seems to have virtually abandoned his future history by the late 50's (I wouldn't even swear that DOOR INTO SUMMER (1957?) is inline), but he recycled bits and pieces into his later stories, e.g. there's an episode in the history of RED PLANET that happens offstage in STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND. But there isn't even this tenuous connection between the two latter mentioned and the FRIDAY universe. Note the first line of FRIDAY: "As I left the Kenya Beanstalk capsule, he was right on my heels". (*) Beanstalk or Kalidasa's Tower or whatever the original name for this was, it's much too big to have vanished from TMIaHM---after all, if you're shipping out prisoners you'll use the cheapest method, and once you've built such a tower it's going to be a lot cheaper than reaction drives. Or consider that in GULF the moon is a resort, with no indication of farms, ex-prisoners, or political independence. Certainly this is negative evidence---but I recently reread TMIaHM and there was \\no// indication that it connected with the FRIDAY universe, which I'd call RAH's Chaos line ("Gulf" is probably the oldest SF story to suggest ecdysiasts at lunch counters). Chaotic years are mentioned in the mainline future history (see the headlines quoted a few pages into METHUSALEH'S CHILDREN) but nothing as severe as in FRIDAY, and much earlier (1970's-80's, in fact). (Based solely on chaos-on-Earth FRIDAY might be linked to I WILL FEAR NO EVIL---but I really don't believe RAH was actually trying to link any of his later novels to the future history line; he was more interested in randomness and didacticism. I'll be happy to read any contrary arguments, but sweeping statements like the one above should be backed up when presented. (*) thanks to ?Adina? ?Susan? for quoting this over the phone from the MITSFS. ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 86 18:39:28 GMT From: 6103014@pucc.BITNET (Harold Feld) Subject: RE: Dividing up Heinlein Heinlein's work (with the exceptions of TCWWTW and NOTB) can be divided up into three categories. Future History, Utopia, and Twilight Zone. The Future History stories have already been listed, but as far as novels go there's: TMWSTM, The Green Hills of Earth, Revolt in 2100, MC, Orphan's of the Sky, and TEFL. Utopia stories are any stories where RH spends most of his time telling us how to have a perfect society. The most obvious examples are: Beyond This Horizon and Starship Troopers. I also include: 1) All the Juvenile books. (The good are rewarded, the bad guys are punished, and everybody gets loads of adventure.) 2) Stranger In a Strange Land. (Dictates the model of perfect human relationships.) 3) The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress (model of a perfect revolution). 4) Friday (why modern soceity is doomed to break down and what we should do about it.) The Twilight Zone stories are any bizzare stories that are written soley for entertainment value. Examples: Anything in 6*H (especially THEY), Everything in MFE except the title story, and everything in AIE. The exceptions to this classification are Double Star (which fits best in TZ, but not realy anywhere.) , and, more importantly, TNOTB and CWWTW. These books tie together *EVERYTHING* RH or anybody else has ever written via the Gay Deceiver time-space doohickey. Hopefuly, this list will help someone somewhere sometime. p.s. Does Heinlein go to any conventions? Which ones? BITNET: 6090617@PUCC UUCP: ...ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET!6090617 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 86 01:57:34 PDT From: jon@csvax.caltech.edu (Jonathan P. Leech) Subject: Re: Heinlein's Timelines > Brent Chapman writes > Jon Leech (jon@csvax.caltech.edu || ...seismo!cit-vax!jon) writes: >> Along with "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", "The Rolling >>Stones", and (at least initially) "The Cat Who Walks Through >>Walls". It's possible that "Red Planet" and "Podkayne of Mars" are >>also in this universe (I recall a tenuous connection in "The >>Rolling Stones", but it's been a long time since I read any of >>them). > > The "tenuous connection" between "The Rolling Stones" and "The Moon > is a Harsh Mistress" that Jon speaks of is none other than Hazel > Stone herself. Wrongo, the "tenuous connection" is between TRS and the Mars novels, which interpretation should have been clear from the posting. The connection between "Cat", TRS, and TMIAHM is "intuitively obvious to the casual observer" as we used to say about Math 1 problems. A pity that "Cat" didn't STAY in that timeline. So, does anyone have the canonical set of acronyms for Heinlein novels yet? Jon Leech (jon@csvax.caltech.edu || ...seismo!cit-vax!jon) Caltech Computer Science Graphics Group ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 86 14:48:06 GMT From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: THE KING'S JUSTICE by Katherine Kurtz (mild spoiler) The description in the inside jacket cover is rather long, so I'll break from my tradition and provide a summary myself. This is volume II of the "Histories of King Kelson", a series which started with THE BISHOP'S HEIR. It deals with King Kelson's campaign against the province of Meara and his old enemies Archbishop Loris and Queen Caitrin. Other interesting highlights include Kelson's mother, Queen Jehana, returning to court, the introduction of Haldane powers to Kelson's uncle Nigel, and the further adventures of Alaric Morgan, Duncan McLain, and Dhugal MacArdry, and some more glimpses of the Camberian Council. If you're not familiar with the "Deryni" series of Katherine Kurtz, let me provide a brief overview. The world is very similar to earth during the medieval period, even to the point of there being a Christian church, Moors, etc. However, humanity is divided into two groups, Deryni (the minority), who have various "magical" powers, and untalented humans. Most of the Deryni powers are mental ones - various amounts of telepathy and the ability to plant "suggestions" or control a person's actions, though there are a few Deryni healers. The Deryni have been feared and persecuted by the Church for over two hundred years, but they are tolerated to some degree at the time of the Kelson stories. Kelson himself is part Deryni, and Alaric and Duncan are Deryni who haven't had any formal training. As you might expect from this scenario, the stories are high fantasy, full of adventure and excitement. I've yet to rate a Deryni book less than 3.5 stars (very, very good), and this one is no exception. In fact, I give it my highest rating, 4.0 stars. This rating comes automatically when, late at night, I decide to read a chapter before going to bed, and then I decide to read another, and I want to see what happens next so I read another, and finally I give up any thought of a full night's sleep and read the entire book. One word of caution. Many of the characters in this book have appeared in other Deryni stories, Alaric and Duncan in particular, and there are so many interesting characters that the author thoughtfully put an index of characters at the back of the book. If you haven't read any of the Deryni books, you might do well to start with one of the earlier ones, such as DERYNI RISING. You certainly should read THE BISHOP'S HEIR before THE KING'S JUSTICE to get an understanding of what's gone on before, though you'd probably enjoy the book even without having read the other one first. Duane Morse ...!noao!{mot|terak}!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 86 13:00:12 GMT From: cje@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Ernst @ Sanctum Sanctorum) Subject: Doc Savage paperbacks query (*SPOILER*) Would some kind-hearted collector please give me some information on the following "Doc Savage" paperbacks? These are books not in my own collection. What I'm looking for, for each title, is a) a description of the cover b) the villain's name (costumed name and alter-ego, where applicable) c) the name and nature of any unusual weapon used by the villain d) the name and nature of the villain's goal e) the locales of the story For example, for the first book, "The Man of Bronze": a) Doc in yellow light on black background, fists clenched, shirt torn b) The Son of the Feathered Serpent (Don Rubio Gorro) c) The Red Death (plague germ) d) gold e) New York City; The Valley of the Vanished, the Republic of Hidalgo, Central America If you're feeling verbose, you could reproduce the back-cover blurb (just the story-specific one) for me, too, though this is above and beyond... paperback number title 10 The Phantom City 19 The Pirate of the Pacific 29 The Other World 31 The Annihilist 33 The Terror in the Navy 42 The Gold Ogre 43 The Man Who Shook the Earth 80 The King Maker 81 The Stone Man 82 The Evil Gnome 83 The Red Terrors 86 The Angry Ghost 87 The Spotted Men If any serious collector would also like to describe the cover of the original PULP magazine for ANY of the Doc Savage stories, I'd appreciate it. Thanks in advance, Chris Jarocha-Ernst ARPA: JAROCHA-ERNST@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU UUCP: {allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!topaz!cje ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 86 23:38:19 GMT From: 6080626@pucc.BITNET (Adam Barr) Subject: Funny SF Probably the funniest SF story I have read is "Wasp" by Eric Frank Russell. It's the only story I have heard of by him and is amusing from start to near the end (I don't like the ending that much). Or how about the "Myth" series by Robert Asprin? Although those occasionally cross the line between humor and stupidity. Adam Barr Princeton University ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 86 14:02:25 GMT From: cvl!kayuucee@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) Subject: Re: Findlay Light vs Pierce Brosnan nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser) writes: > The new Bond > Somehow you knew that TV heartthrob Pierce Brosnan > wouldn't be out of work for long. One day after NBC canceled his > "Remington Steele" series last week, Brosnan was announced as the > new James Bond. He makes his 007 debut in "The Living Daylights," > which is in pre-production in London. If this is true, then I will be watching Bond movies for a long time to come. Brosnan should make a terrific Bond. I hate to see REMINGTON STEELE end, but something good has come out of it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 86 21:46:12 -0800 From: Alastair Milne Subject: Re: Doctor Who To: Graham Hotchkiss I very much agree that the amount we happen to see of the Doctor's doings can't possibly include all of them. Remember, the Brigadier has seen four of his generations, over a period that must be less than 20 years. Since a Time Lord has 12 re-generations to sustain him through approx. 1200 years (I think), this suggests that the Doctor has been wasting regenerations at a catastrophic rate. It seems to me inevitable that he has been spending considerable amounts of personal time in other periods, returning to 20th century England every time as a home away from home, and that each generation has had many more years than we see (the third Doctor is perhaps an exception, since it wasn't until Carnival of Monsters that the TARDIS would take him anywhere at all without the Time Lords' intervention). As far as The Face of Evil goes, I should think it quite likely that his tinkering with Zoannon came about on one such excursion. I've always taken it on faith that whenever the TARDIS shows up in some spot where we have no reference for the period (Robots of Death, for example) it could be any time at all, past or future, and I enjoy the fact that it doesn't matter. An unrelated problem which your mention of The Three Doctors recalls to mind: the third Doctor obviously had no memory of the point of view of the second. Furthermore, in the Five Doctors, the fifth (Davison's) should have recalled the whole thing from the points of view of his previous selves; likewise, the third (the fourth being trapped and unavailable) should have recalled the points of view of the first two. The Time Lords and their memory manipulations again? Rather makes you wonder where, if anywhere, they draw the line. Still, perhaps it's just one nasty consequence of having broken the first law of time. > Therefore it seems that when a doctor regenerates it is perhaps > the splitting of parralel future possibilities. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you suggesting that the generations all live in parallel, and that a regeneration simply means starting on the next parallel course? It's pretty clear, I think, that the generations are sequential, each one continuing the life lead by its predecessor. Certainly memories and experiences continue, as for a single man. My own feeling is that, aside from altered tastes and personality quirks, all the generations are indeed the same man. Certainly this appears to be the legal viewpoint on Gallifrey, where a Time Lord elected to office retains that office through regeneration. But I'm afraid that probably doesn't answer your suggestion, since I don't really follow it. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 86 13:53:35 EDT From: Hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA To: Pavel.pa@xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Society for Creative Anchronism (SCA) Sorry to get you all uptight. I read it somewhere and just wanted confirmation or deconformation. The replies that I have gotten have indicated that I was way off base in what I read. I think I read it in Twilight Zone or Factsheet Five. About 10 people have replied to me and assured me this wasn't true. The reason I asked is because I wanted to know if it was true and why? It didn't seem quite right and I am always looking for strange phenomena. Sorry to to set you off, Pavel. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 86 14:50 PDT From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: SCA people and SF people I don't know what you are on about. I am not an SCA type, but I am an SF fan, and I have several friends who are into the SCA. I think the problem is the devotion and fanaticism which they extrude. I have met several SCA people that I would not let my dog associate with. These people smelled worse than the dog too. However, as with groups, I have met some very nice people. A christian fellow told me once that "every group has its nut cases" and I think he hit it on the head. The thing is that the people who are the most vocal are often the same nut cases. And the photos of them bashing each other with swords probably doesn't help either. All SF fans do is run around in hotels dressed weird until their blood alcohol level reaches 25% at which time they burn out like a collapsar and pass out in the halls, making the hotel vow never to have another convention again. Jon ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 21 May 86 0922-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #127 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 21 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 127 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Ellison & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Powers & Sagan & Footfall (3 msgs), Films - This Island Earth & Legend, Television - Doctor Who (2 msgs) & Tripods, Miscellaneous - Filk Songs & Gargle Blasters ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 May 86 11:49:31 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: DEATH OF A FOY Ok, I agree that it was painful. However, it was very definitely FUNNY! What was wrong with it? ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 86 05:35:00 GMT From: jimb@ism780 Subject: Re: Time is Money > The novel I had in mind was Jack Vance's _The Faceless Man_ > (1971), which is mainly _not_ about time. I like "Repent, > Harlequin ..." better, but does it antedate TFM? "'Repent, Harlequin,' said the Ticktock Man" was originally published in the magazine GALAXY in 1965. Jim Brunet ihnp4/ima/ISM780 hplabs/hao/ico/ISM780 sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ISM780C/ISM780 ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 86 18:18:44 GMT From: 6103014@pucc.BITNET (Harold Feld) Subject: Re: RAH multiverses From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) >>>[...FRIDAY is in the same universe is ["Gulf"]] >> Along with "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", "The Rolling Stones", > >Nonsense. The connection to _Friday_ is a lot more tenuous than in MIAHM. At one point, Friday calls Luna to speak to Bialey's lawyer. The moon is referred to as Luna Free State. This answers your other objection about Beanstalks. The Bean Stalks and the break up of the U.S. occurred after the Revolution. (Note that in TCWWTW Beanstalks are mentioned.) BITNET: 6090617@PUCC UUCP: ...ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET!6090617 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 86 23:47:28 EDT From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: Heinlein's future history There are a lot of stories nobody has mentioned that are clearly part of his future history. _Space Cadet_ and _Farmer in the Sky_ for instance. Keith ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 86 09:00:58 GMT From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: William Ashbless (& Blaylock) The story I have heard: Tim Powers and James Blaylock went to school together. While students, they conceived of the hoax poet William Ashbless, and created a "biography" of same. Now that they are both big-time SF authors, they include Ashbless in EVERY book they write (I haven't found any that don't have Ashbless, either as a reference or as a character). Random note #1: notice the name of the ship in "Anubis Gates" - the Blaylock. Random note #2: does anyone (or everyone) else agree with me that James Blaylock is, arguably, the most boring author currently writing? Mike Farren uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667 ------------------------------ Date: 20-May-1986 1606 From: redford%jeremy.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (John Redford) Subject: "Contact" by Carl Sagan I'm surprised that there's been so little mention of "Contact" here. It's been out in paperback for months now. Are people turned off by the bestseller-hype around it? By Sagan's TV series? If so, you're missing a treat. Sagan is not an sf fan, and he's not strong on plot, but there's more Sense of Wonder in this book than I've seen in a long time. It's about a subject that's dear to Sagan's heart, the search for extraterrestrial intelligence. The protagonist is a woman astronomer that gets caught up in the search, to the point of becoming the director of a radio telescope array in the Southwest that's dedicated to it. The Message finally comes in and the chase begins: what does it mean? Who sent it? What shall we do about it? I won't say anything more about the plot, except to add that it ends with the most extraordinary way to prove the existence of God that I've ever come across. The characters are good, the technical parts are fascinating, and there's a strong current of philosophy. This is a five out of five star sf book, folks, and it was done by an outsider. Why can't our regular sf authors do this well? John Redford DEC-Israel ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 86 23:35:11 GMT From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: Footfall I would say that 'Footfall' lies about midway between 'Lucifer's Hammer' (boo!) and 'The Mote in God's Eye' (horay!). It has some of the annoying cast of thousands features of 'Lucifer's Hammer', but the material was more interesting. The aliens were not nearly as intriguing as the Moties, but on the whole it was a good enough read. My vote for Hugo would still be 'Blood Music', though. Some minor annoying features: the book at times seemed like an ad for Star Wars and the space program. More ludicrously, it was a sort of ad for the brilliance of SF authors. In the book, Robert Anson Heinlein (without the last name) and his merry crew get to do the advice-dispensing which in real life some academic brain-gang probably headed up by guys like Sagan or Dyson would do. Maybe the SF authors really would do a better job, but who would ask? Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ucbvax!weyl!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 86 11:11:35 EDT Subject: Footfall From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Jim White) >Okay, who's read _Footfall_? I just finished my copy, and here's a >brief, non-spoiler opinion: > >Like _Lucifer's Hammer_, I had a hard time putting the book down. >It flowed well, and Niven and Pournelle made it fairly easy for me >to identify with the characters. The ending seemed rather abrupt, >though. After 574 pages, I wanted things to be resolved a little >more cleanly. >Brian Clapper I finished Footfall about 3 weeks ago and have these comments; ****** spoiler warning ****** Basically it was a good book. I thought it started out quite believable and , once the spaceship was discovered, I liked how Niven/Pournelle handled the preparation activity of Earths scientific/military and political units. The actual contact was great. I was impressed with the authors' description of the paniced man trying to exist in vacuum long enough to get into a 'bubble' life support system. This all during the attack on the Soviet Space Station. I questioned the purpose of the Survivalist group. I gather Pournelle may be a quazi/pseudo survivalist, thus he may responsible for those sections. The whole survivalist compound seemed outside of the story line. I thought the process of building the Earth (Archangel)attack vessel completely unrealistic. I understand the technology to build that type of craft may exist or nearly exist, but it couldn't be put together as fast as it was, (1 year??). The building and launch seemed on the whole too flawless. Given the state of our current space program, the perfection seems totally surreal. The last 150 pages did grip me also. I was gobbling them up in my rush to read them. Great tension and excitment. The ending was ok, but a little anti-climatic. Maybe there is more comming, eh? I also liked the interplay between the two cultures. One a definite 'herd mentality', (the pfithp,sp?), and the human's more independent culture. The pfithp's ultimate inability to understand humanity led to the book's conclusion. Poor Kansas ! ***** end spoiler ****** Niven and Pournelle have combined for these books; The Mote in God's Eye Lucifers Hammer Oath of Fealty (I know Niven, I think Pournelle) Footfall I'd put Footfall ahead of Oath of Fealty, but behind the other two, in terms of quality. Jim White ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 86 23:17:38 GMT From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton) Subject: Re: FOOTFALL (spoilers follow) I found Footfall to be a very solid thriller. Hard to put down and well worth the read. The SF isn't what I would call ground-breaking, but it is well prepared and interesting. SPOILER: Footfall serves as a good example of how much you have to suspend disbelief to get a convincing alien invasion story. The levels of technology of the two cultures have to be very close (or very non-human) to allow an invasion that isn't certain. In Footfall, if the aliens had arrived as little as 30 years ago, they would have taken over the Earth without a second thought. We had no space capability and little nuclear weaponry. Even in the book, the strange alien philosophy of war was all that kept the human race intact. They felt that the only way you win a war is by assimilating the other race. Destruction was never their goal. Otherwise, any form of bio weapon (or more feet) would have done the job. Had the aliens arrived 50 years from the time of the book, they would have been blown out of the sky, considering their philosophy. With more equal technologies, being outnumbered millions to one would have told the tale. This the amazing coincidence that two races, each millions of years old, would intersect at the precise time for an interesting battle is hard to justify. But then, you wouldn't have a good book without it. What I really hate is alien invasion stories that aren't crafted as well as Footfall. They have aliens with technology far beyond ours having to fight a battle for control. Things like V and every B SF movie count in here. Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 86 09:52:48 -0500 Subject: THIS ISLAND EARTH From: E. Wesley Miller Jr. For those of you who have laser disc players, MCA Home Video has THIS ISLAND EARTh already on the shelves. It should also be available on tape. ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 86 01:07:08 GMT From: oliveb!gnome@caip.rutgers.edu (Gary Traveis) Subject: Re: Legend From: WCCS.E-SIMON%KLA.WESLYN%Wesleyan.Bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU > Has anyone actually seen the European version ? I was not aware > that the movie I saw was hacked (and I liked the music by > Tangerine Dream and John Anderson). I am just curious as to what > was cut out. The Euro-version had mostly classical music as the soundtrack and had about 10 minutes more total running time. Most of what was cut was divided (1/2 & 1/2) between the "textural" shots and scenes both in the floating-fluff-filled-forest and the deep-dark underworld. I guess I was struck the most by Tim Curry's performance. I also wished that there was more done with character of the fairy -- I liked the movie, as a whole, very much. Gary ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 86 06:41:58 GMT From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) Subject: Re: Doctor Who > An unrelated problem which your mention of The Three Doctors > recalls to mind: the third Doctor obviously had no memory of the > point of view of the second. Furthermore, in the Five Doctors, > the fifth (Davison's) should have recalled the whole thing from > the points of few of his previous selves; likewise, the third (the > fourth being trapped and unavailable) should have recalled the > points of view of the first two. > > The Time Lords and their memory manipulations again? Rather makes > you wonder where, if anywhere, they draw the line. Still, perhaps > it's just one nasty consequence of having broken the first law of > time. I cannot remember the reference, but I do recall that one of the doctors mentioned that their memories are partially erased from regeneration. What this amounts to is that a time lord will forget parts of his past. Consider the following paradox: Timelord1 (First incarnation) meets up with Timelord2 (or any successive incarnation). They face a conflict together. How is the crisis resolved if Timelord2 already knows the outcome? Does he simply tell Timelord1 what "happened"? And then, in telling him so prevents the event from happening at all?? If the original course of events never happens, how can Timelord2 know about it? I believe that this is one of the classical paradoxes of time travel. To get around this, Timelords selectively 'forget' any bit of information that may have occured to the Timelord while meeting himself/herself. A real Kludge Job, but it tidys up all the loose edges. Probably the work of Rassilon :-) Shared points of view are shown to exist. In The Five Doctors, the Doctor (#2 & #3) exchange information via a telepathic concentration. I believe this was possible due to the similarity of 'their' brainwave patterns. The idea here is that POVs can be exchanged if two or three or four or more incarnations take the time to do it. Jonathan D. Trudel arpa: trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4,pyrnj,pyramid}!topaz!trudel ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 1986 09:23:55 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson Cc: WAHL.ES@XEROX.COM Subject: More about you-know-Who First off, thanks to all those who have answered (or have yet to answer) my questions concerning the "Face of Evil" and the Doctor's family. Now here's another: At the end of "The Two Doctors", both Doctors go off in their respective TARDISes without bothering to deal with the dead bodies of Shockeye, Chessene, and Dastari, not to mention the remains of the Sontarans and the Khartz-Reimer module. Isn't that rather irresponsible of them, considering the consequences if the people living near the hacienda discover the bodies? I would have expected the Second Doctor to show a little concern for Dastari, but he seems just as willing as the Sixth Doctor to go skipping off into the universe without a thought for his fallen friend. While you Whovians out there ponder that one, here's a Doctor Who joke: Q. What is Nyssa's favorite dish? A. Kipper of Traken! Carlo Samson U09862 @ uicvm ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 86 19:31:45 GMT From: ritcv!sds5044@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven D. Smith) Subject: Tripods TV Seris I have some questons concerning Tripods. 1. Is the series on public TV presently, Tripods I or TrIpods II? 2. The last episode I saw was Beanpole dragging Will out of the river leading to the great city. What will become of Fritz still in the city? 3. Is this series exactly as the trilogy when it was written? 4. Now that Will and Beanpole are together, will they get a chance to talk to Julius? 5. Can anyone drop me a hint about how this all ends? Will the Tripods be destroyed? Thank you, Roman P.S. Posted by Steven D. Smith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 86 14:29 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: filksong Cc: 6103014%pucc.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Harold Feld) Horsetamer's Daughter is by Leslie Fish and Off Centaur publications has an excellent tape out by that name, by Julia Ecklar, featuring the song. If anyone's interested, I'll post address. (I have no connection with Off Centaur, but am a dedicated Julia Ecklar fan.) Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 86 18:16:06 GMT From: 6103014@pucc.BITNET (Harold Feld) Subject: Ignore the Gargle-Blaster----Here Comes BLUE STUFF At Lastcon T'ree last year some one was serving Romulan Ale, also known as Blue Stuff. This stuff is dynamite! Truly! Would I lie to you? Anyway, the recipe goes something like this: 1 part Vodka 1 part Rum 1 part Blue Curacoa 2 parts Lemonade Mix well, serve chilled. A gentle wallop disguised. BITNET: 6090617@PUCC UUCP: ...ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET!6090617 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 May 86 1122-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #128 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 23 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 128 Today's Topics: Books - Butterworth & Duane & Heinlein (4 msgs) & Herbert & Footfall, Television - Tripods & Doctor Who (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Great Literature & Filksongs (2 msgs) & Copyright Information & Etymology ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dec-akov68!boyajian@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Michael Butterworth [was Moorcock (TIME OF THE HAWKLORDS)] Date: 20 May 86 12:37:27 GMT From: reed!soren (Soren Petersen) > I had never heard of any sequel. What's the title? Was it ever > released in this country? in paperback? > > Has Butterworth ever written anything else, by the way? Except for > TotH, I'd never seen or heard of him. Gee, did I forget to mention the title of the sequel? I guess I did. So sorry. It's QUEENS OF DELIRIA, and no, it never had an American edition, which is most likely why you've never heard of it. Other than a half-dozen SPACE: 1999 novelizations (which *have* appeared in American paperbacks), I don't know of anything else that Butterworth has done, except in an editorial capacity for Savoy Books. a British small-press paperback outfit. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ****Note *new* new UUCP address**** <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1986 10:30 EDT From: Ben Yalow Subject: Diane Duane For the benefit of those Diane Duane completists, there is a new Duane short story, called "Uptown Local". It appears in an anthology called "Dragons & Dreams", Ed: Jane Yolen, Martin Greenberg, Charles Waugh, from Harper & Row. It fits in as part of the "Wizard" series. Ben Yalow YBMCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 86 02:55:47 GMT From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Heinlein's Timelines While we're on the subject, has anyone noticed that many of Heinlein's books, particularly his juveniles, come very close to fitting into the "History of the Future"? _Space Cadet_, for example, alludes to Johnny Dahlquist (from "The Long Watch"), and would seem to fit perfectly--save that the actual Future History at that date is deep in the Interregnum of Nehemiah Scudder, so Earth is effectively cut off from just about all space travel and the other planets. Has anyone ever figured out what kind of a forest all of his branching timelines make up, or has he ever done so himself? (Before he started making them reentrant, of course.) pH ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 86 01:46:00 GMT From: mcomp!d25001@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Heinlein Future History One bit of Heinlein trivia. There was a discussion of the "Future History" stories a while back that just reached my site. There were a couple of lists of "all" the F-H stories -- except one. When the "Heinlein History" chart first appeared in the May 1941 issue of _Astounding_Science_Fiction_ the second story on the chart was "... And He Built a Crooked House". Its connection to the rest of the F-H is certainly not great but neither is it any worse than "Life-Line" (or a number of the other stories that were grafted into the F-H to fill the books in the early 1950's) in this regard. So, is AHBaCH a "Future History" story or not? Carrington Dixon UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!d25001 ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 86 04:56:59 GMT From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Heinlein's Timelines (_Friday_) > wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu writes: >> It is, however, in the same universe as one of his earlier >> short stories (and damn! for the life of my I can't remember the >> title--and it was even mentioned here, quite recently, I think). >> You know--the one with "Kettle-Belly" Baldwin and the supermen. > > Along with "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", "The Rolling >Stones", and (at least initially) "The Cat Who Walks Through >Walls". Well, yeah, but the "Gulf"-_Friday_ timeline and the _The Rolling Stones_-_The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ timeline are only brought together in _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_; there was no indication of any connection between the two timelines until that book came out. pH ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 86 21:31:04 GMT From: vrdxhq!mws@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Stalnaker) Subject: Re: RAH multiverses Also, look at the names of the colony worlds mentioned in both: the only one I remember off hand is Fiddler's Green, but there were several worlds I beleive that were both on the Space Liner's route in Friday, and were mentioned in TCWWTW. Mike Stalnaker seismo!vrdxhq!mws ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 86 15:41:53 GMT From: wmartin@brl-smoke.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: Herbert books The books WHIPPING STAR and THE DOSADI EXPERIMENT, by Frank Herbert, are set in the universe of the ConSentiency, and feature a character named Jorj X. McKie, a "Saboteur Extraordinary" of the Bureau of Sabotage. Are there any other works by Herbert set in that universe, using the races he has created that people that environment, or that feature this character? If there are, is there any particular order to them? (DOSADI is a sequel to WHIPPING STAR, by the way.) (If there are not, does anyone know if any other writer has tried setting works in this universe? Also, as far as I can determine, there is no relationship between this universe and that of the DUNE books. Does any such link actually exist? [Perhaps one is the far future of the other?]) Will Martin UUCP/USENET: seismo!brl-smoke!wmartin or ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 86 14:44:09 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: FOOTFALL jimb@ism780 writes: >> FOOTFALL is a biggie and I only have 23 years left till >> retirement. I don't have much time left for mind candy and there >> are at least half a dozen Elmore Leonard books waiting under my >> bed. > >Mind candy it is, of the cotton candy variety. A ho-hum plot with >lots and lots of cardboard characters -- three or four are actually >interesting. That is very interesting:-) They would be very interested to hear that you think they are cardboard! Most of the characters in FOOTFALL are real people!(names changed to protect the ??) I even know some of them myself. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 86 20:13:01 GMT From: nicmad!brown@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Tripods TV Seris sds5044@ritcv.UUCP (Steven D. Smith) writes: >1. Is the series on public TV presently, Tripods I or Tripods II? Both. Actually season 1 and 2. They are only called 'The Tripods'. >2. The last episode I saw was Beanpole dragging Will out of the > river leading to the great city. What will become of Fritz > still in the city? That is at the end of the second season or book two: 'The City Of Gold & Lead' >3. Is this series exactly as the trilogy when it was written? That part I don't know. The book series is currently in reprint and I haven't gotten a copy yet. >4. Now that Will and Beanpole are together, will they get a chance > to talk to Julius? We will never know, unless we read the book. >5. Can anyone drop me a hint about how this all ends? Will the > Tripods be destroyed? As it stands now, it seems as if we will never see the third book turned into the series. Good ole Michael Grade (remember him) as decreed that it will not be finished. So, the only way we will know how it ends is to read the book. ihnp4|harvard!uwvax|topaz!uwvax|seismo!uwvax|decvax}!nicmad!brown ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 86 06:49:00 GMT From: brahms!jablow@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Who again? From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM >I've always assumed that the Doctor was single and that his first >companion, his "granddaughter" was actually another, probably >unrelated, younger Time Lord, who posed as his granddaughter to >explain their relative ages to the Earth people they were living >with. Actually, the semi-official word from the show is that Susan *is* the Doctor's granddaughter. In fact, one idea for the show that was never filmed was that the Doctor's wife and children were killed in a disaster, and in fact they originally intended to have the Doctor be a refugee from the destruction of his home planet, just like what happened to Jor-el (or is that Kal-el?) to cause him to leave Krypton. Also, the Master was originally intended to be the Doctor's brother. But if you want to get the last word, you'll have to wait until THE THIRTEEN DOCTORS is filmed. :-) >In fact, have we seen anything to indicate that Gallifreyans have >an institution such as marriage? The only indication at all that I >can think of is Andred and Lela, and, Lela being alien, I'm not >sure that that tells us anything about Time Lords. Well, Susan married a human at the end of THE DALEK INVASION OF EARTH, so there is some precedent for this. Certainly we haven't seen two Gallifreyans married yet though the actors who played them may have been married for a short time. (Incidentally, Patrick Troughton (2nd Doctor) has been married for a long time to Jean Marsh (Sara Kingdom). I wonder if Jean felt nostalgic to be fighting robots again in RETURN TO OZ?) Actually, this may be another reason why the Doctor left Gallifrey. After all, Gallifreyans don't feel much; most Time Lords are dispassionate spectators. This doesn't make for good marriages. Who knows what the Doctor does with his companions? At least in private; this is a children's show. >And, who know how Time Lords reproduce? We can assume this rarely comes up. After all, a Time Lord can live for an amazingly long time, if he takes care of himself and stays away from Sontarans. Also, considering that Time Lords can stop their hearts by will (and then restart them!), we can assume that they don't need contreceptives. By the way, what do you think Tegan did after she ran away from the Doctor in RESURRECTION OF THE DALEKS? After all, she had no job to go back to. Do you think she ran to a phone booth and dialed up Sarah Jane? Respectfully, Eric Robert Jablow MSRI ucbvax!brahms!jablow ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 86 19:19:51 GMT From: jhunix!ins_bjab@caip.rutgers.edu (Jessica A Browner) Subject: Re: Who again? > Jon Pertwee had a theory that the Master was the Doctor's brother. > How else to explain two extremely capable (but not always > competent) super-scientists who continually try to do one another > in, but always fail. What do you mean by how else you can explain it? It *is* possible, you know, for two completely unrelated people to have similar abilties. Do you also think that Sherlock Holmes and Professor Moriarity were brothers? ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 86 23:16:29 GMT From: oliveb!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barb Jernigan) Subject: Re: "Great" literature From: pnet01!bnw@nosc.ARPA (Bruce N. Wheelock) > ...The point you make about not wanting or needing Joyce, Kafka, > Montaigne, or such like, during your leisure time is exactly > what's wrong with so-called "great literature." The stuff is so > stodgy and incomprehensible that it cannot survive outside the > sterile atmosphere of the classroom. On the other hand, the truly great literature stands despite its label. It combines Meaning with Entertainment, to be savored, yea, even enjoyed. Some people really do read Joyce for kicks. I find Dostoevsky entertaining in small doses. Karen Blixen (alias Isaak Dineson) is also very entertaining. And then there's the great Bard himself, Will Shakespeare. It is a saddening trend to equate incomprehensible with greatness. (I don't understand a word, therefore it must be great literature -- feh! baloney! ptoui!) Truly great literature transcends all this -- tying the reader into something greater, challenging on many levels, yet still entertaining (though some great literature does not withstand/transcend the passage of time to become Great Literature) -- for the lesson/meaning given in entertainment more often sticks. Shakespeare was a Hack! An "Upstart Crow" composing plays at the speed of his pen. Yet he is considered Great -- now. Perhaps it is only Time that decides what is great literature -- but I contend, and I contend heartily, that "literature" and "entertainment" are NOT mutually exclusive. Now I'd best get off the soap box, the suds are making my shoes slippery. Happy reading! Barb ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 86 21:26:26 GMT From: k@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) Subject: Re: the absolutely positively hopefuly real origin of Subject: filksong >The origin of the word filk dates back to a long ago NASFIC. ^^^^^^ For the ignorant among us, what is this? National Association of Science Fiction I?????? C???????? Kathy (Mail to k@mit-eddie.UUCP or kay@MIT-XX.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 86 16:25:09 edt From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Filk Cc: 6103104%pucc@ucbvax >The origin of the word filk dates back to a long ago NASFIC. No way, Jose. The first NASFIC happened in 1975; the term "filksong" was in common use when I went to my first SF convention in 1973. (NASFIC=North American Science FIction (or Fiction Interim) Convention, held when the Worldcon goes out of North America; up through Heicon (Heidelberg, 1970) a non-NA Worldcon simply interrupted the rotation of the three NA zones instead of replacing the zone whose turn it was.) I've seen references from older filkers to use of the term in the early 60's. PS "The Horsetamer's Daughter" is by Leslie Fish (words and music), who was filking before she knew what it was called (she had an album called -"Folk Songs for People What Ain't Even Been Born Yet"-, cut I think when she was a closet Trekkie). Easily the best overall filker, although there are better composers, sometimes lyricists as good, and many better singers. Also old enough and has wide enough experience to come up with some real weirdies---she sang a new one, "Carmen Miranda's Haunting Space Station Three", at Balticon, where my former officemate asked me "Who's Carmen Miranda?" ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 86 15:53:13 GMT From: wmartin@brl-smoke.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: Copyright-page info Is there a legal requirement for giving any information about past printing history on the copyright page of a book? Often, you will see a notice such as: "Portions of this novel appeared previously in Dead Frog Magazine under the title of 'The Bubbling Axolotl', copyright The Amphibian Publishers, 1983" or the like. But is providing such data required by any legal rules? Or is it done only in certain circumstances, and what determines those? I ask this inspired by recently reading the novel by Norman Spinrad, THE VOID CAPTAIN'S TALE. There was nothing on the copyright page of the book I read (a paperback) to indicate a previous publishing in other forms or media, but I am next to positive that I had already read this in a shorter form (perhaps a novella or novelette), and I think it won one of the awards in that original form. Or am I just the victim of decomposing brain cells and was this piece of fiction really only ever a novel? Will Martin UUCP/USENET: seismo!brl-smoke!wmartin or ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 86 16:27:46 PDT (Wednesday) Subject: On "erbs" From: Opstad.osbunorth@Xerox.COM Bard Bloom asks about the word "erb". I don't know if it's the same thing, but L. Frank Baum commented in the sixth book (The Emerald City of Oz) that the Phanfasms were Erbs, the most terrible and evil of all magic spirits. Does this fit? Dave Opstad (Opstad.osbunorth@Xerox.COM) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 May 86 1147-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #129 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 24 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 129 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Brin & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Footfall & A Survey, Films - The New James Bond, Television - Tripods (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Gargleblasters & A Request & Literature ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 May 1986 16:21:25 PDT Subject: Apprentice Adept series From: Douglas M. Olson From: griffith@pavepaws.berkeley.edu ("Cutter John" Griffith) >I am a big fan of the Apprentice Adept series, and think it is one >of the best sf/fantasy trilogies ever published. Opposing views >can be sent to /dev/null, where they will be treated with >appropriate respect. Sorry, you can't shut off the inevitable responses to a 'best ever' claim by directing them to the bit bucket! Especially when I marked the ground first! Perhaps I shortchanged the Apprentice Adept books in my first posting; I was already into a very long statement and merely remarked on the worst of the flaws, the one that most severely detracted from my enjoyment of the books. I do recognize the vivid imagery, the decent story-line/plotting, and some other good points. But Anthony drove me absolutely bananas whenever Stile got depressed...poor Stile was always short, his whole life, always short, his whole life, always short, his whole life, through three whole books! grrr. The man found it almost impossible to be honest with the women in his life; he lied to and manipulated Sheen and Neesa (he felt guilty, sure, but he kept right on doing it). So as a protaganist I found him melodramatic, insecure, dishonest, and still an innocent goody-goody. Useless. So: the series has its points. But sorry, the flaws were responsible in part for driving me completely away from anything by Anthony, and this series certainly won't make it onto MY best series list. Doug (dolson @ Ada20.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 86 23:54:54 GMT From: mtgzz!dls@caip.rutgers.edu (d.l.skran) Subject: Thor meets Captain America The July F&SF has a story by David Brin(Startide Rising) titled "Thor Meets Captain America" which I suggest to all and sundry, especially those with an interest in comics. Perhaps surprisingly, the story is pretty good. This is not the marvel mythos, but Brin's own, and frankly, I look forward to more stories set in this alternative past, one in which Thor, Loki, and a host of others meet someone who may(or may not) be Captain America, but who is certainly a living legend. Dale ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 86 14:16:10 GMT From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven Jones) Subject: Re: Re: Heinlein's Timelines (_Friday_) > Well, yeah, but the "Gulf"-_Friday_ timeline and the _The >Rolling Stones_-_The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ timeline are only >brought together in _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_; there was no >indication of any connection between the two timelines until that >book came out. I believe the "Gulf"-_Friday_ timeline also contains _Starman Jones_, judging from the names (and comparatively small number) of planets visited: Botany Bay, Fiddler's Green, etc. Also, did you notice he tried to merge _Stranger in a Strange Land_ with these other timelines by having Campbell/Ames want to ask Jubal Harshaw about "all those stories about the man from Mars." Sorry, but that doesn't work: the first person on the moon (_Cat_, and thus presumably _Friday_ and "Gulf") was Neil Armstrong, whereas Larkin et al., employees of General Atomics (?) were credited as first in _Stranger_, hence the "Larkin Decision" etc. S. Luke Jones ...ihnp4!mtung!slj ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 86 14:34:50 GMT From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven Jones) Subject: Re: Re: Heinlein's Timelines Jon Leech (jon@csvax.caltech.edu || ...seismo!cit-vax!jon) writes: > Along with "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", "The Rolling >Stones", and (at least initially) "The Cat Who Walks Through >Walls". It's possible that "Red Planet" and "Podkayne of Mars" are >also in this universe (I recall a tenuous connection in "The >Rolling Stones", but it's been a long time since I read any of >them). The link between Podkayne, Red Planet, and The Rolling Stones is probably just the Mars described by Heinlein. Lowell "Buster" Stone's "Flat Cat" is a lot like Jim-Marlowe's "Bouncer" Willis, but we all know that Willis is much more than a Flat Cat. Note that the Mars in these 1950's Juveniles is much closer to that of the 1940's "Future History" than it is to current belief. Podkayne of Mars really talks as much about Venus as Mars, and its Venus is quite similar to the one in the Future History and Between Planets, and Space Cadet. S. Luke Jones ...ihnp4!mtung!slj ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 86 11:42 PDT From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Footfall - Long with Mild Spoilers! I am a true Niven and Pournelle fan. I have all their collaborations, which include a few someone didn't mention... The Mote in God's Eye Definitively the best first contact book! Inferno Dante look out. Hell revisited. Funny! Lucifer's Hammer The best Irwin Allen disaster book ever. Oath of Fealty Intriguing questions of morality and technology. Footfall The best invasion of Earth I have read. Footfall SPOILERS!!!!! I just finished reading Footfall in two marathon sessions, and I loved it. I thought the entire thing was well done, as usual for Niven and Pournelle. There were a few things I wasn't quite clear on. Since the snouts could drop rocks within 15 feet of a moving semi, how in the world did we get those space shuttles up into space? Did they go up on Michael, and if so, how did they get from Florida to Bellingham without being bombarded? I think the survivalists were placed in B'ham for two reasons; to get the plot into Bellingham and to take out Roger the reporter after he learns about Project Michael. Aside from that, I am sure that there are plenty of people who would react that way. Survivalism is a definite trend in today's society. Are there any survivalists out there? And as for Bellingham, I was going to Western Washington University when Niven and Pournelle attended our SF club's convention. It was a great con, in stark contrast to the previous ones that no one came to because they didn't know where Bellingham was. Once Niven and Pournelle said they would come a whole slew (do writers come in slews or is there a special word for them?) of SF writers showed up. It was amazing. Turns out the whole reason N&P decided to come was so that they could see what B'ham was like for to blast it to smithereens with a thousand nukes. Impolite of them to do that, but B'ham is a small price to pay for the destruction of the snouts. And contrary to what they say, Bellingham is a very nice little college town that used to be heavy into lumber before the Japanese took over. It has gorgeous mountains, rivers and forests. Stop in and visit on your way to Expo in Vancouver. See where they built the ship. And be sure to take Chuckanut Drive and see the San Juan Islands. They are gorgeous! But enough, I'll leave the rest for the Tourbots. I agree that the most innovative part of the book was the herd mentality of the snouts. They really had a hard time grasping the human way of thinking, whereas we got an insight to them much quicker. Not necessarily a given, but from the assumptions laid down it worked. I also liked the Predessors, which were never clearly identified. It seems they were similar to the Thrint and Tnuctipin that appear in Niven's Known Space series, except that they managed to destroy themselves and not each other. By leaving their "blocks" of information for the snouts to use and learn from, they paved the way for an immature culture to take to the stars. Unfortunately for both sides, this did not allow them to learn many of the things we have learned (all those enrolled in the school of hard knocks, please raise your hands). It was said by the herdmaster that they had anticipated that this was the case when they were travelling. Something about "familiarity with their own technology" instead of learning from the Predessors. All in all, I give the book 3 out of 4 stars. I enjoyed it immensely, and it was not nearly as obvious as Lucifer's Hammer was. The aliens were unique, as far as I can remember. Does anyone know of other stories involving intelligent herd societies? Jon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 86 11:08:15 PDT From: woody@Juliet.Caltech.Edu (William E. Woody) Subject: re: Footfall After finishing reading _Footfall_ about a week and a half ago (in a reading sprint which was not good for my classwork!) I felt that this was one of the best novels of this type I have read in a long time. And *no*, I didn't think the ending was bad; quite the contrary, too many novels drag out the ending to the point where I simply give up reading. Granted, _Footfall_ may have left some loose ends lying around, but after the conclusion of the story, it's rather predictable how those ends will be tied together. I _HATE_ stories that drag. They should cut clean, and not wear us out. The reward ceremony of Luke Skywalker and Han Solo at the very end of _Star_Wars was *booooooring!*; the "Epilog" of _Crime_And_Punishment_ was a waste of good paper. Thank goodness that _Footfall_ Did Not Suffer This Fate! William Woody NET Woody%Romeo@Hamlet.Caltech.Edu USNAIL 1-54 Lloyd, Caltech / Pasadena, CA 91126 ------------------------------ Date: 22-May-1986 1703 From: brendan@gigi.dec.com (From the terminal of Brendan E. Boelke) Subject: Another survey? I don't usually answer surveys, and here I am potentialy starting one - oh well. I was looking for something to re-read the other night, and skipped over a couple of series because I had tried to re-read them before, but COULDN'T. No matter how much I tried I couldn't get into them again. So, my question (survey?) is, how many of you folks out there have read a book or series, loved it while reading it, couldn't wait for the next one, and, for one reason or another, just can't re-read it? And why? (These should be books/series that you would give at least a ** on the -**** to ****+ scale ). As for me, my two were: LOTR - I just couldn't get into it. I was getting very, very bored waiting for the plot to start. I found myself wishing they had CLIF notes on the books. Thomas Covenent - This was (is??) one of my favorite series. I eagerly awaited each new book. When I started to reread Lord Fouls Bane, it just wasn't there. Already knowing the ending (5+ books away!) just made the series to tough to read again. I think if I had struggled it out, I would have been on anti-depressant drugs before the end. Does anyone else ever run into this? BTW, there are many, many books that I have read multiple times, so it is not a usual thing for me not to be able to re-read something. ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 86 08:22:47 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Findlay Light vs Pierce Brosnan >For some time now there have been postings definitively stating >that Findlay Light (sp?) was to be the new James Bond in "The >Living Daylights." However, the following article is from today's >(5/18/86) Boston Globe, reprinted without permission. > >The new Bond Lucky guess, but I said in an earlier posting that 1) it was still up in the air and 2) that it would probably be Brosnan. It stands to reason. Audiences have already shown they like Brosnan while Light could turn out to be another George Lazenby. The producers were probably pulling for Brosnan all along. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 1986 08:11:56 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson Subject: The Tripods The Tripods series (1 & 2) was shown on PBS station WTTW in Chicago a few months ago. The last episode I saw ended when Will and Beanpole returned to the White Mountains, only to find the outpost at the foot of the Mountain a charred, smoking ruin. In the novels, Fritz eventually escapes from the City, but as the next series isn't out yet (to my knowledge) we can't be sure. The TV series contains loads of alterations and additions, such as: 1) The whole deal with the Vichot family in the "White Mountains" part. This was not in the novel (I think they inserted it to provide some romantic interest for the boys). 2) A great deal of "The City of Gold and Lead" (The city was simply called the City of Gold in the series). There are so many differences that I can't recall them all at the moment, but a few notable examples: a) The Tripods planet was not named in the novel, but in the series Will's Master calls their planet "Trion". (Shades of Turlough!) b) Those girls Will and Beanpole meet at the Games (more romantic interest!) c) The Masters mode of transportation: in the book they used wedge-shaped cars (or something like that); on TV, the Masters cruised around in spinning pyramids of energy that could even pass through solids walls! d) The idea of the Pool of Fire itself: in the novel the Pool was the Master's power source, but in the series a human-built nuclear reactor provided the power, while the Pool was some sort of computer databank. e) The slave disco: This was the only thing that I found totally ludicrous and out of place in the whole series so far. Theres's more, but I'll leave it up to others on the net to point out additional differences between the television series and the novels. And yes, the Tripods and their cities are destroyed eventually. Carlo Samson U09862 at uicvm ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 1986 13:09:05 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson Subject: PGGB A year's supply of Qualactin Hypermint Extract goes to the person who can come up with a NON-alcoholic version of the famed Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster. Carlo Samson U09862 @ UICVM ------------------------------ Date: Thu 22 May 86 14:46:47-EDT From: Scott Schneider Subject: Aspiring Author's Request Does anybody have any suggestions on what an unpublished author can do with a 19,000 word (approx.) long short-story/short novel (sf, of course)? I've already shown it to all the friends and professors I could find (and revised it accordingly) over the last two years and am anxious to send it out to meet the big, bad world. Thanks in advance, Scott WCCS.S-SCHNEIDER%Kla.Weslyn@Wesleyan.Bitnet (after June 1st: WESALUM.S-SCHNIEDER%Kla.Weslyn@Wesleyan.Bitnet ) ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 1986 16:32:15 PDT Subject: Literature and categories From: Douglas M. Olson To: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu While I'm not in total agreement, your points were well enough made that I consider them valid differences of opinion and I know why we think differently. You did slide in a reference to a certain work which you labeled as literature and which you also seemed to consider to be outside the realm of SF (which I read as 'Speculative Fiction'). I think that Mark Helprin's "Winter's Tale" is both great literature and SF. All I'm saying is that I hope you don't draw too strict a line between the great lit and "the sf ghetto" as it is still too often miscalled. Your flaming at the clod was both called for and appreciated! Doug (dolson @ Ada20.arpa) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 May 86 0914-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #130 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 27 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 130 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Herbert (2 msgs) & Laumer & Personal Favorites & Funny SF & Footfall (2 msgs) & Computer Simulations, Films - Hidden Fortress Television - Tripods & Doctor Who ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 May 86 03:58:50 GMT From: sysdes!drw@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Blue adept question-- A few forgoten talents > I believe White's power was over cold and she could make Ice > things. White's power was the use of symbols (I think), there's also the Translucent Adept as well ... the one in the sea (power over sea creatures perchance?) Dave Wilson, uucp : ...!ukc!sysdes!drw ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 86 07:17:50 GMT From: nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser) Subject: Re: Herbert books wmartin@brl-smoke.ARPA (Will Martin ) writes: >The books WHIPPING STAR and THE DOSADI EXPERIMENT, by Frank >Herbert, are set in the universe of the ConSentiency, and feature a >character named Jorj X. McKie, a "Saboteur Extraordinary" of the >Bureau of Sabotage. Are there any other works by Herbert set in >that universe, using the races he has created that people that >environment, or that feature this character? If there are, is there >any particular order to them? (DOSADI is a sequel to WHIPPING STAR, >by the way.) > >(If there are not, does anyone know if any other writer has tried >setting works in this universe? Also, as far as I can determine, >there is no relationship between this universe and that of the DUNE >books. Does any such link actually exist? [Perhaps one is the far >future of the other?]) I had been wondering about other stories about McKie myself. I did find one more, a short story in World(s) of Frank Herbert. I believe it was called The Thoughtful Saboteur, or Tactful, or something like that. It is about McKie involved in a trial, a Pan Spechi one, I think. I believe it comes before the other two stories because of some stuff mentioned about Bildoon, who was the head of the comission for which McKie worked, or something like that. There is no mention made of the (sorry I've forgetten what they're called) beings from the other two books, you know, like Fanny Mae. I don't know which came first, these two novels, or Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse: Dune, but I suspect that the latter came afterwards, since they are fairly recent. Maybe I am thinking of some other of his stories, but I noticed that the chairdogs which appear in the McKie books started appearing in the Dune books. I think that this was probably not meant to be a connection between the two universes, but just an invention of one universe which he felt the other probably would have had too. Nathan Glasser nathan@mit-eddie.uucp nathan@mit-xx.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 86 15:17:26 GMT From: houligan!bseymour@caip.rutgers.edu (Burch Seymour) Subject: Re: Frank Herberts use of vacuum tubes in _Under_Pressure_... Frank has commited the ultimate sin in writing technlogy books. He tries too hard to describe HOW the things work, instead of just describing what they do. My candidate for all time worst book by a major S-F author has to be _Destination_Void_ by Herbert for the same reason. It sounds like he took an old IBM manual, underlined all the technical words, and then made an effort to use all of them whether he knew what they meant or not. I found the effect quite nauseating. For a counter example, Asimovs Robots all use positronic (I think thats it) brains. His descriptions are all high level and stand up without sounding too silly even 25 or whatever years later. Burch Seymour ...mcnc!rti-sel!gould!bseymour ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 86 11:14:18 GMT From: lindsay@cheviot.newcastle.ac.uk (Super User) Subject: Retief and the Pangalactic Pageant of Pulchritude by Keith Subject: Laumer ****** DO NOT BUY THIS BOOK ******* This book (as published in paperback) is a gross rip-off - the title story is 77 pages long (and is OK)but the rest of the book (~150) is simply a reprint of Retief's Ransom (which most Laumer fans will have). The only mention of this fact is in very small letters on the back cover and even flipping through the book will not tell you that this is the case as all the pages are headed "Retief and the Pan....." Do not get burnt like I was...... Lindsay F. Marshall, Computing Lab., U of Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK ARPA : lindsay%cheviot.newcastle.ac.uk@ucl-cs.arpa JANET : lindsay@uk.ac.newcastle.cheviot UUCP : !ukc!cheviot!lindsay ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 86 04:01:17 GMT From: 6080626@pucc.BITNET (Adam Barr) Subject: My Personal Favourites Well, I guess I will throw in my two cents or so. What I am talking about is my favourite science fiction and fantasy series. I guess the sort of consensus (this is one of those consensi which no one person agrees with) is that "The Lord of the Rings" is the best fantasy series and "Foundation" is the best sf series. Well, I'm not sure. I agree that "The Lord of the Rings" is great. It's got what you need; great writing and great ideas. However there are other series (what do you call them, anyway? n-logies?) which I like a lot. "The Chronicles of Amber" by Roger Zelazny is a good story, with great ideas, and some attempt made to define the universe in which it is set (something that Tolkien did the best, in fact I guess he created the universe and then just told stories about it), and it is written in a sort of colloquial (sp?) manner which is fun to read. Actually that is sort of what is neat, it's this fantasy novel but it's written like a detective story or something. Another good one is "The Wizard of Earthsea" trilogy by Ursula LeGuin. This is written really well and the story and world are interesting, but below the level of Tolkien on both counts. Which brings me to my favourite fantasy trilogy, "Riddle of Stars" by Patricia McKillip. I haven't heard a lot of talk about this, but I really like it. It is beautifully written, the only fantasy books I have read that were written as well as Tolkien, and the story is fascinating. Also the world is well-defined, and the entire world is used as a setting, unlike some books which have a big map in front and then have all the action take place on one island off in the corner. Plus there's a little love story thrown in and some plot twists just for kicks. Great stuff, really great. Moving on to sf, I confess I didn't like the Foundation trilogy (I haven't tried Foundation's edge yet). I only read it so my sister would stop threatening to tell me where the second Foundation was, and although I found some parts of the first book interesting, on the whole I was pretty disappointed. Anyway, forgetting that, one (octology?) that I like was the Pern books by Anne McCaffrey, although mostly because of the concept, not the actual writing. Actually the science fiction books I was supposed to like (like the Lensman series) I hated, while the ones I was supposed to hate (like Dhalgren, what a book, loved it, everyone else in the world hates it, I don't care) I liked. Where was I? Oh yes, my favourite series (I know everyone is dying to know) is the Demon Princes quintology by Jack Vance. These stories are just neat, the names of characters are neat, the locales are neat, the main character is a pretty neat, the plot is neat, the many ways that people are killed are pretty neat, the obligatory scientifically-impossible-but-we-need-it-for- the-story-faster-than-the-speed-of-light-mode-of-space-travel is neat, etc. Plus the last book is probably the best sf book I have read. Well, I'm sure no one is reading this by now, but anyway, does anyone have any comments? Especially on McKillip and Vance... Adam Barr ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 86 17:28:11 GMT From: houligan!bseymour@caip.rutgers.edu (Burch Seymour) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf First, I might as well add my nomination for funny books. It's _The_Eye_in_the_Sky_ by P.K. Dick. It's also about as weird a book as I've read, but the premise is interesting and the whole thing hangs together. Second, shouldn't all of these suggestions be sent as mail to the requestor who, being a good network soul, would then post a summary? I mean I must have read 25 suggestions for Xanth and Myth stories. Please no return flames.. its just a rhetorical question. Burch Seymour Gould C.S.D. at ....mcnc!rti-sel!gould!bseymour ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 86 06:31:00 GMT From: jimb@ism780 Subject: Re: Footfall > That is very interesting:-) They would be very interested > to hear that you think they are cardboard! Most of the characters > in FOOTFALL are real people!(names changed to protect the ??) I > even know some of them myself. People in reality and their portrayal in fiction are two different kettles of fish, if you'll pardon the mangled imagery. The fact that FOOTFALL's characters are based on real characters means nothing -- the *roman a clef* has been around for a long time. What is significant is that the characters are *rendered* so flat and lifelessly. They are, for the most part, cardboard contrivances dragged across the stage for the author's purposes, lacking a depth and feeling of their own. Fooey. Look, the play JULIUS CAESAR is based on real characters. Have you never seen (or conceived of) wooden, flat performances? I have no doubt that someone could >gag< write a story filled with people on this net: chuq, the Leepers, Barb Jernigan, me, you, etc., and have us read dull and flat, completely unlike the colorful, interesting characters we are. You understand, no? < :-; for those who need it>. Jim Brunet ihnp4/ima/ISM780 hplabs/hao/ico/ISM780 sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ISM780C/ISM780 ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 86 14:54:47 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Footfall JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes: >I questioned the purpose of the Survivalist group. I gather >Pournelle may be a quazi/pseudo survivalist, thus he may >responsible for those sections. The whole survivalist compound >seemed outside of the story line. Well, I hardly call him a *quazi/pseudo* survivalist! He is the real thing! He is the leader of a local Survivalist group(probably the one in the book!). Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 86 08:09:38 GMT From: mcgill-vision!mouse@caip.rutgers.edu (der Mouse) Subject: Re: sentient being in computer simulation Sorry, the original article seems to have expired. Someone asked for a reference to some story in which contact with some world was made through a computer simulation. Various responses have been given, but there's one book which has been notable in its absence. This is The Planiverse, by Dewdney (reference at end of article). In this, a program is written to simulate a very simplistic two-dimensional universe, but the program starts going a bit past its programming....I'd better stop here to avoid having to back up and put a spoiler warning at the top. Recommended. Dewdney, A. K. (Alexander Keewatin). The Planiverse: explorations in a two-dimensional universe ISBN 0-7710-2742-7 der Mouse USA: {ihnp4,decvax,akgua,utzoo,etc}!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse philabs!micomvax!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse Europe: mcvax!decvax!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse mcvax!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!micomvax!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse ARPAnet: utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 86 22:14:47 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Star Wars HIDDEN FORTRESS is out on cassette and I have been meaning to write a review of it. It actually is not that close to STAR WARS. It is mostly about the attempts to return a willful princess and her gold to her own country (from enemy territory). I don't think she is ever really captured by the enemy. The main characters are two humorous soldiers, a powerful stranger who protects the princess, and the princess, herself. The stranger is played by Toshiro Mifune. I am pretty sure one of the guardians of the princess early in the film is Takashi Shimura, though I didn't see his name in the credits. (Shimura, whose name is pretty much unknown in this country, was the lead samurai in SEVEN SAMURAI, the dying official in IKIRU, and the scientist in a number of Toho's science fiction monster films.) Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 86 13:19:29 -0200 From: Eyal mozes To: sds5044@ritcv.uucp Subject: Re: Tripods TV Series > I have some questons concerning Tripods. > 1. Is the series on public TV presently, Tripods I or TrIpods II? > 2. The last episode I saw was Beanpole dragging Will out of the > river leading to the great city. What will become of Fritz still > in the city? > 3. Is this series exactly as the trilogy when it was written? > 4. Now that Will and Beanpole are together, will they get a chance > to talk to Julius? > 5. Can anyone drop me a hint about how this all ends? Will the > Tripods be destroyed? To start with the third question: no, it is definitely not exactly like the trilogy. There are many disappointing differences, some of them silly (for example, they changed the name of one of the heros from Jean-Pierre to Jean-Paul, and his nickname from Jumper to Beanpole; the reason for that escapes me). I definitely recommend, even to those who watched the series, to buy and read the trilogy; the books are "The White Mountains", "The City of Gold and Lead", and "The Pool of Fire", by John Christopher; your description in question 2 sounds like the end of "The City of Gold and Lead". The rest of this posting is a spoiler for those who intend to read "The Pool of Fire". The answer to the 4th question is: yes; "The Pool of Fire" starts with Will and Jumper back in the white mountains, after an uneventful journey back from the great city. Fritz arrives a few weeks later, after he also manages to escape. Are the Tripods destroyed? Yes, they are. Towards the end of the war, Henry talks to Will about his concern that, after defeating the Tripods, men will start to fight each other again; he is killed shortly after, and later events prove him right. The story ends with Will, Fritz and Jumper deciding to continue fighting together, this time for a more difficult goal - achieving world peace. Eyal Mozes BITNET: eyal@wisdom CSNET and ARPA: eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA UUCP: ..!ucbvax!eyal%wisdom.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 86 21:53:47 GMT From: 3comvax!michaelm@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael McNeil) Subject: Re: Who again? daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes: >Jon Pertwee had a theory that the Master was the Doctor's brother. >How else to explain two extremely capable (but not always >competent) super-scientists who continually try to do one another >in, but always fail. > >They might have done something with this, but the actor who played >the master died. Why should it matter if the actor playing the Master died? That's the beauty of the rationale of the Doctor (and other time lords) regenerating -- they can always replace anyone! Also, remember Tom Baker in *Logopolis* saying of the Master and himself: "In many ways we have the *same* mind." (Although, I believe he implied this was because they were both time lords.) Michael McNeil 3Com Corporation (408) 970-1835 {hplabs|fortune|idi|ihnp4|tolerant|allegra|glacier|olhqma} !oliveb!3comvax!michaelm ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 May 86 0946-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #131 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 27 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 131 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Asimov (3 msgs) & Eisenstein & Codex Seraphinianus & Herd Animals & Footfall, Television - Tripods, Miscellaneous - Japanese Animation & The Orson Welles Cinema & SF as Good Literature ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 May 86 03:57:58 GMT From: griffith@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Cutter John) Subject: Re: Apprentice Adept series From: Douglas M. Olson >Perhaps I shortchanged the Apprentice Adept books in my first >posting; But Anthony drove me absolutely bananas whenever Stile got >depressed... poor Stile was always short, his whole life, always >short, his whole life, always short, his whole life, through three >whole books! grrr. I want to address this comment right away. It's obvious that you are a person who is at least 5'9" or 5'10". Speaking as a person who is 5'6" and 20 years old with all my friends over 5'10", I know where Anthony is coming from. Oh sure, Stile's case is a little exaggerated compared to mine, but it is true that height can seriously affect a person, especially someone with low self-esteem (it's also obvious that Stile has little self-esteem before he encounters Phaze, except in regards to his Gaming skill). Personally, I think Anthony himself must be short for him to emphasize this fact. As for "through three books", he mainly deals with it in the first, Split Infinity. By the third, Stile's pretty happy with himself as he is and says so. People who have had something all their lives generally don't know what it's like not having that something. >The man found it almost impossible to be honest with the women in >his life; he lied to and manipulated Sheen and Neesa (he felt >guilty, sure, but he kept right on doing it). So as a protaganist >I found him melodramatic, insecure, dishonest, and still an >innocent goody-goody. Useless. Wait a minute. He's a dishonest goody-goody? That doesn't make much sense. The one quality that Anthony stresses in this series is HONESTY. Stile doesn't lie. He says so, the machines say so, Hulk says so,..... It's true that he keeps some of the truth to himself occasionally, but it's a fact that the world would be a living hell if everyone told the entire truth all of the time. As for using Neysa (NOT Neesa) and Sheen, he establishes his relationship with them right away. As soon as he realizes Sheen is a robot, he explains where she stands with him, and he or re-evaluates their relationship when he meets the Lady Blue. The same goes for Neysa. >So: the series has its points. But sorry, the flaws were >responsible in part for driving me completely away from anything by >Anthony, and this series certainly won't make it onto MY best >series list. I think the reason that you saw "flaws" that I didn't see is that since I enjoyed the books, I read and re-read them more thoroughly. I HAVE read them all around thirty times each. Since this series is well past the review stage, and since this discussion seems to have a small audience, I would like to suggest that this discussion be kept off the net from now on (unless there is a great mass of unspoken readers???). Flames or comments to me. Jim Griffith griffith@pavepaws.UUCP or griffith@pavepaws.berkeley.edu P.S. Douglas M. Olson - are you related to weemba@brahms? ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 86 12:04:38 GMT From: houligan!bseymour@caip.rutgers.edu (Burch Seymour) Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf > .... Piers Anthony's "Prosthro Plus" if you can find it. Good news for those who mentioned this Anthony book was hard to get. It has been reprinted by Tor books, June 1986 date inside the cover. I just bought it last night, so I can't say how funny it is yet. Burch Seymour Gould C.S.D. at ....mcnc!rti-sel!gould!bseymour ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 86 16:16:11 -0200 From: Eyal mozes Subject: Re: Asimov's "Death of a Foy" After hearing so many pro-and-con comments about it, I can't resist telling you about the special meaning this story has for Israeli SF fans. It represents a landmark in the history of editorial imcompetence. Sometime in '81, an Israeli SF magazine published - get this - a Hebrew translation of "Death of a Foy". In the introduction, the editors said that it is Asimov's latest story (which was, I think, accurate) and added: "we didn't get the point of this story, so any reader who got it is requested to write to us". Needless to say, the story left all readers (including myself) completely baffled. Only about 3 years later, when I mentioned the story to a friend who has read it in English, I was told that the story ends with a pun. I later found the story in English (I think it was in the collection "The Winds of Change"), and I did like the pun; but I guess for Israelis this story will always be funny whether you like puns or not. Eyal Mozes BITNET: eyal@wisdom CSNET and ARPA: eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA UUCP: ..!ucbvax!eyal%wisdom.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 86 15:47:36 GMT From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin) Subject: Re: NOT SO HUMUROUS SF >Asimov's DEATH OF A FOY. Just one point about all the discussion on this story: WHAT'S THE PUN???? I've never read the story, and I can't seem to find it anywhere! Being a lover of puns (good and especially bad!), I'd like to see the gem that's caused all this. Can anyone out there help me? Thanks in advance. Jim. ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 86 16:59:40 GMT From: frog!john@caip.rutgers.edu (John Woods, Software) Subject: Re: Another Foundation novel >>Isaac Asimov's 6th Foundation book, "Foundation and Earth", will >>be published this fall. >SIXTH book? *SIXTH*? I thought it was four also. What are the names of the fourth and fifth? > Really, it's very simple. You discover that the character wasn't > *really* deciding the fate of the galaxy, and find out who is. I rather thought that would be it. The ending of the last one, what with its continual revelations that one group was being secretly controlled by someone else, reminded me of the Illuminatus! trilogy by Robert Anton Wilson (I wonder if Asimov is an Illuminatus ?-) )... John Woods, Charles River Data Systems, Framingham MA, (617) 626-1101 ...!decvax!frog!john, ...!mit-eddie!jfw, jfw%mit-ccc@MIT-XX.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 86 14:09:54 GMT From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: BORN TO EXILE by Phyllis Eisenstein (mild spoiler) The jacket reads: "Disowned by his family as a witch-child, the minstrel Alaric had long trod his path alone, armed with his lute, his songs, and his power to move magically from place to place. When he came upon the grandeur of Castle Royale, he had no idea that there he would find temptation, and within temptation, danger. Bedazzled by the unparalleled beauty of Princess Solinde, caught in the dark intrigues of Medron the magician, Alaric would know the still darker exile of the sinister Inn of the Black Swan. There he would meet the ultimate test that could end his exile -- or end his life." Though it looks like a novel, this book actually consists of five stories, all involving the same main character, Alaric. They are in chronological order, but, as is stated near the copyright notice, "portions of this novel appeared originally in issues of THE MAGAZINE OF F & SF". As a novel, the book suffers from having originally been short stories. Each story has its own development and climax, so the book as a whole doesn't have either. The stories are all pretty good. Alaric is a teenager throughout, and he uses his magical power as little as possible since "witches" are severely persecuted. The time period seems to be late renaissance, though the planet isn't mentioned; this book is once of fantasy and isn't concerned with other worlds or aliens. Further, it has more to do with Alaric's interactions with other people than with magic or adventure. The last story in the book is the most interesting, and I would like to have seen it developed into an entire book. The ending of that story is very unsatisfactory, however; I got the impression that the author hurriedly finished it to meet a deadline. I give the book 2.5 stars (out of 4.0: good, but plan to trade it in). On the jacket, there's a quote by Jerry Pournelle saying this is the best fantasy novel he's read this year (1978?). I wonder if he wrote that in January. Duane Morse ...!noao!{mot|terak}!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 86 03:10:23 GMT From: 6056626@pucc.BITNET (Jonathan Baker) Subject: Re: Codex Seraphinianus A few weeks ago, I saw some correspondence on a book called Codex Seraphinianus, by the Italian architect Luigi Serafini. It is not in _Books in Print_, so can someone tell me how or where to look for it in the New York-New Jersey area? Even a publisher's name and/or location would be helpful -- it looks like an ideal present for a couple who are getting married in a month or so. (yes they are very odd folk) Send me mail, preferably, or post to the net if that doesn't work. Jon Baker 6056626@pucc.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 86 04:20:33 GMT From: gsmith@cartan (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Humans vs Herd Aliens >I agree that the most innovative part of the book was the herd >mentality of the snouts. They really had a hard time grasping the >human way of thinking, whereas we got an insight to them much >quicker. >The aliens were unique, as far as I can remember. Does anyone know >of other stories involving intelligent herd societies? This may seem like a strange comparison, but what about "West of Eden" by Harry Harrison? The Yilane, like the Snouts, war with humans, have a superior technology but lose anyway, and are much more of a herd society. Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 86 10:17:26 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Footfall - Long with Mild Spoilers! As long as we're talking about Footfall: Arthur C. Clarke, perhaps in _Profiles of the Future_, was lamenting about the fact that man hadn't domesticated any new animals in recorded history. He suggested that it might be nice to genetically tinker with an elephant, shrinking it a bit, adding a little more intelligence, maybe increasing the prehensibility of the trunk. Does this sound a bit familiar? david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 86 04:42:12 GMT From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: Tripods TV Series From: Eyal mozes >To start with the third question: no, it is definitely not exactly >like the trilogy. There are many disappointing differences, some of >them silly (for example, they changed the name of one of the heros >from Jean-Pierre to Jean-Paul, and his nickname from Jumper to >Beanpole; the reason for that escapes me). I do not doubt that there are differences, but while I (not having a television, nor any great desire to watch one) have not seen the video adaptation, I did read at least the first book of the series. It was perhaps 10 years ago, but I distinctly remember Beanpole. At the time I did not realise `Jean-Paul' was French, and could not see how one turned that into `Beanpole'. (Though I think I remember reading it spelled `zhan-pole'. Did not the explanation come later, when the two met the third? ---if indeed that was the sequence of events; as I said, it has been a long time.) Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1516) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 86 20:01:42 GMT From: watmath!mwtilden@caip.rutgers.edu (M.W. Tilden, Hardware) Subject: Japanese Animation: An Introduction for the Uninitiated Hi. You've probably seen one or two postings to the net about Japanese animation but so far as I know, nobody's posted a general summary of what it's all about. Here's an attempt to fill that void and hopefully swell our ranks. For those of you not familiar, Japanese TV is apparently almost 30% "cartoons". However, unlike American anime [animation] the plots, artwork and character development are directed at mature audiences (some are *very* [ahem!] mature). The themes and plots follow genuine conflicts for survival or culture/power clashes. (it's *not* all just a barrage of hyper-intelligent children thwarting the plans of meglomaniac adults with impossible machinery) The shows range from single episode plots to 150 episode series on every subject from hard sci-fi to surreal fantasy to modern day drama. There are comedy series, anti-hero series and towards the low end, the all too familiar VOLTRON and TRANSFORMER shows directed strictly at the kiddies. There are also movies galore with a similar spectrum (You might want to check out WARRIORS OF THE WIND in your local video store. It's one of the only movies translated with the original soundtrack. Just great!). Most of the good stuff is still in Japanese but check out ROBOTECH on your local TV networks (usually carried by the independents) if you haven't done so already. It's three series that have been reasonably translated and blended into one plot. Good hard sci-fi with character development, great styling, covert violence and everything else they seem to have cut out of Bugs Bunny nowadays. Most of the *nasty* stuff never made it past the american censors but original copies are around and I was impressed with their candor. ROBOTECH is nothing when compared to the good Jap series like HEAVY METAL L'GAIM (MARK II) or ZETA-ZETA GUNDAM but it's a start. With enough interest, there will be more soon. You can get a look at some of these shows by attending sci-fi conventions or by contacting your local chapter of the Cartoon Fantasy Organization. Give it a try, it's quality stuff. Anybody interested? Anybody speak Japanese and interested? I've got some shows I'd like you to watch so I can subtitle and distribute. We'll meet again.... Mark Tilden Hardware Design Lab. M.F.C.F University of Waterloo. Canada, N2L-3G1 work: (519)-885-1211 ext.2457, home: 888-7111 UUCP: ..!{utzoo,decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!watmath!mwtilden ARPA: mwtilden%watmath%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa CSNET: mwtilden%watmath@waterloo.CSNET ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 86 14:55 EDT From: Robert W. Kerns Subject: The Orson Welles Cinema To: film@SCRC-YUKON.ARPA The Orson Welles Cinema in Cambridge has just had a major fire. I counted 17 fire trucks, including one from neighboring Sommerville. Most of the smoke seemed to be from the rear of the cinema, in the vicinity of cinemas #2 & 3, but a substantial amount of smoke was also coming out of the front door as well. I hope this does not lead to its demise; this area has lost too many repertoire theatres already. (Remember Cinema 733, and the Kenmore Square? The Central Square?) There's no place that could replace its particular home in the heart of Boston movie fans. It would be particularly unfortunate if this meant the end of the annual SF marathons, which have run for 11 years now. ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 86 20:24:17 GMT From: ci-dandelion!jim@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Fulton) Subject: looking for comments on why SF can be "good" literature For the fun of it I'm trying to put together a list of references and personal observations on why science fiction is not necessarily "bad" literature. In other words, why do you think that SF can be worthwhile reading (beyond the "because I like it" answer, although that is often mine)? Please _mail_ any thoughts to me and I will post a summary. Many thanks, Jim Fulton ARPA: jim@ATHENA.MIT.EDU, fulton@EDDIE.MIT.EDU UUCP: jim@ci-dandelion.UUCP (...!{mit-eddie,talcott,ulowell}!ci-dandelion!jim) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 May 86 1019-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #132 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 27 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 132 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Garrett & Heinlein & Herbert & L. Neil Smith & Book Recommendations (2 msgs) & Funny Sf, Television - Tripods, Miscellaneous - Japanese Animation & Aspiring Authors ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 May 86 19:34:38 GMT From: cbosgd!rtm@caip.rutgers.edu (Randy Murray) Subject: HGG V Can anyone send me information on the fifth _Hitchhiker's_ book, or new books by Douglas Adams, including publisher, date, and price? If you can, please do. Randy Murray cbosgd!rtm ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 86 03:22:57 GMT From: hodghead@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Bill Hodghead) Subject: Re: Randall Garrett To answer your question: No, Randall Garrett is not (to the best of my knowledge) dead. He is VERY ILL. From what I understood, he is rarely "conscious", but when he is, he and Vicki get together and brainstorm on the books. However the dedication of "River Wall" certainly does lead one to think that she is now writing the books alone. Perhaps these "conscious" times are now too rare for them to (excuse my phrasing) "waste" on writing. May I suggest a query to their publishers might yield more information. I hope you will find better news from someone else. I am very sorry for this loss to the S.F. world. Eden Rain ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 86 20:01:58 GMT From: ptsfd!djo@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: net.heinlein (lotr strikes back) But it does miss the whole point of Heinlein's recent work to try to box things into neat series. Since the fifties and the juvies, RAH has been writing stories that (if you insist on consistency) would have to be regarded as inhabiting closely related universes -- very closely related, for they all come from the same Author's brain. There is _no_ series other than those books identified as "future history," up to and including TEFL. The apparent connections with the books from TNOTB on are a head game, and some of the folks in this net don't realize they've been used for pingpong balls. Hey: RAH is too good a writer to put in boxes like that. ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 86 05:16:39 GMT From: nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser) Subject: Re: Science in SF (was Re: Off-mark predictions) bseymour@houligan.UUCP (Burch Seymour) writes: >Frank [Herbert] has commited the ultimate sin in writing technology >books. He tries too hard to describe HOW the things work, instead >of just describing what they do. My candidate for all time worst >book by a major S-F author has to be _Destination_Void_ by Herbert I agree that the descriptions of the various computer parts, etc., from Destination: Void were quite unneeded, to say the least. He also wrote two sequels to this, The Jesus Incident and The Lazarus Effect (I think... I may have the title confused), and these don't contain any of that technical nonsense, since they are no longer about the (?spoiler begin?) construction/enhancement of a computer. (spoiler end) I think that these were much more interesting than the original. Nathan Glasser nathan@mit-eddie.uucp nathan@mit-xx.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 86 17:31:04 GMT From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu (A Andrews) Subject: L. Neil Smith vs. Jane Fonda In a recent posting on net.sf-lovers, someone complained that L. Neil Smith had used the anagram "Edna Yanof" as the name of a villainess, and wondered what Mr. Smith "had against" Ms. Fonda/Yanof. This reaction, taken with the comments of the majority of net-landers in various groups, confirms my suspicion that most netters are (1) under the quarter- century mark in age, and (2) woefully ignorant of recent history. Being neither (1) nor (2), I sigh and take it upon myself to enlighten the original questioner and any others who have not pressed the 'n' key: Ms. Fonda, during the late unpleasantness in Vietnam, took a trip to Hanoi and there made propaganda broadcasts for the communists. She posed, smiling, on a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun. She requested to interview American prisoners in the "Hanoi Hilton" prison camp, and when they refused, the prisoners were beaten. Upon her return to the U. S., Ms. Fonda never apologized for these actions, has never shown any change of heart, nor ever commented upon the millions of boat people who obviously did not share her views. Her greatest moment came, when she was on the Johhny Carson show after the communists violated our peace treaty with them, and conquered the South as they had sworn not to do after our withdrawal. Mr. Carson, in his inimitable way, asked this woman : "How do you feel, now that your side has been proven right?" (sic, sick!) And now, years later, this communist sympathizer is making millions off the fat of Americans. (Of course, socialist countries have very, very few fat people, right?) She has run down this country, supported its enemies, yet makes money using the capitalist system. Her lowbrow husband, one of the Chicago Seven generation of yuppie terrorists, continues to use this money to accomplish her ends by the means of running for office in California. Does this give any of you a hint as to why L. Neil Smith, other libertarians, other conservatives, and just plain ethical folks, want to throw up when Ms. Fonda is accorded wealth and honors by the society that she hates? End of lesson. arlan andrews, Analog irregular; libertarian; one who would not watch a Jane Fonda movie other than one of her funeral. ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 86 01:21:09 GMT From: larrabee@decwrl.DEC.COM (Tracy Larrabee) Subject: SF book recommendations summary: long Here are the SF authors (and I am sorry I used "sci-fi" before: I just didn't know better--I've never been a fan, just a reader) that were recommended to me. They are sorted by frequency of recommendation, and then alphabetically by author's last name. Where specific book were mentioned I have included them in parenthesis: [8] Orson Scott Card (Ender's Game, Speaker for the Dead) [6] David Brin (Startide Rising, Postman) [5] Samuel Delaney (Triton, Nova, Dahlgren, The Fall of the Towers) Harlan Ellison [4] Diane Duane (The Door into Fire, The Door into Shadow) George R.R. Martin (Song for Lya, Sandkings, The Armageddon Rag, Fevre Dream) Vonda McIntyre (Dreamsnake, Exile Waiting) [3] John Brunner (The Sheep Look Up, Stand on Zanzibar, Shockwave Rider, The Jagged Orbit) Steven Brust (To Reign in Hell, Jhereg, Yendi, Brokedown Palace) Philip K Dick (Martian Time-Slip, A Scanner Darkly, Ubik) John Gardner (Grendel) Donald Kingsbury (Courtship Rite) Cordwainer Smith (The Best of Cordwainer Smith, Norstrilla) Mary Stewart (The Crystal Cave, The Hollow Hills) Theodore Sturgeon [2] Poul Anderson (The Broken Sword, A Knight of Ghosts and Shadows, High Crusade, Orion shall Rise, The Merman's children), Isaac Asimov (Foundation Trilogy) William Gibson (Neuromancer) R.A. Lafferty (900 Grandmothers) Tanith Lee (Night's Master, Silver Metal Lover) Stanslaw Lem (Cyberiad, His Master's Voice,The Chain of Chance) R.A.McAvoy (The Damiano Trilogy) Robin McKinley (Beauty, The Blue Sword, Hero and the Crown) Spider Robinson (Stardance, Mindkiller, Calahan's cross-time saloon) Robert Sheckley James Tiptree, Jr. Jack Vance (The Eyes of the Overworld, The Dying Earth, The Language of Pao) Vernor Vinge (The Peace War) [1] Brian Aldiss Robert Asprin (the "Myth" books) Peter Beagle (The Last Unicorn) Greg Bear (Blood Music) Gregory Benford (Timescape) Alfred Bester (Golem 100) Terry Brook (Sword of Shannara, Elfstones) Frederick Brown (What Mad Universe) Octavia Butler (Wild Seed, Kindred) Earnest Callenback (Ectopia) Italo Calvino (Cosmicomics, If on a Winter Night A Traveller, Adam One Afternoon) Jack Chalker (Well World, And the Devil will Drag You Under, Four Lords of the Diamond) Richard Cowper (Kuldesak) Lord Dunsany Suzette Haden Elgin (Native Tongue) Jack Finney (Time After Time) Barbra Hambly Mark Helprin (The Winter's Tale, Refiners Fire) James P Hogan (Two Faces of Tomorrow, Code of the Lifemaker) P.C. Hodgell (Godstalk) Phyllis Ann Karr Fritz Leiber (Conjure Wife) C.S. Lewis (Chronicles of Narnia) Barry Longyear (Enemy Mine) Mallory Dennis L. McKiernan (The Iron Tower, The Silver Call) Michael Moorcock (Dancers at the End of Time) Walter Miller (His Masters Voice) Alexi Panshin (Star Well, The Thurb Revolution, Masque World) Fredrick Pohl (Gateway) Tim Powers (The Anubis Gates) Marta Randall (Journey, Dangerous Games) Tony Reamy (San Diego Lightfoot Sue) Keith Roberts (Pavane) Kim Stanley (The Wild Shore) Joanna Russ ((Extra)Ordinary People) Fred Saberhagen (Empire of the East, The Dracula Tape) Pamela Sargent (Cloned Lives) Bob Shaw (Vertigo, Night Walk, The Ceres Solution, Ground Zero Man, Orbitsville) Alastair Sheckley (The Status Civilization, The Alchemical Marriage of...) Norman Spinrad (The Void Captain's Tale) Olaf Stapeledon Jane Yolen H.G. Wells Connie Willis (Fire Watch) John Wyndham (Day of the Triffids) The Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy (sorry, don't know author) ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 86 04:37:22 GMT From: larrabee@decwrl.DEC.COM (Tracy Larrabee) Subject: Re: SF book recommendations summary: long About that SF authors list I just posted: remember that these authors are not on the list because I listed in them in my request as authors I already loved: J.R.R. Tolkien, Kathryn Kurtz, Patricia McKillup, David Eddings, Marion Zimmer Bradley, John Varley, Joe Haldeman, Joan D Vinge, Ursula Le Guin, Kate Wilhelm, Frank Herbert, Zelazny, Gene Wolfe, and C.J.Cherryh. And these the authors were not on the list because I listed them in the request as authors I hated: Heinlein, Stephen Donaldson, Piers Anthony, E.R. Eddison, and Mervyn Peake. Thanks again to all those people who responded to my request. Tracy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 86 17:07:05 EDT From: BARBER%PORTLAND.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Wayne Barber) Subject: Funny SF I am surprised no one has mentioned _City of Baraboo_ by Barry Longyear. I thought these were very funny stories about a space-traveling circus. The second book, _Elephant Song_, doesn't have that same comedic style, but the third book, _Circus World_, is also funny. I'd also like to put in a vote for _Bill, the Galactic Hero_. If you've ever read the Foundation books or Heinlein or old space opera stuff, you must read this. I couldn't get into _Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers_ at all. It was too much like Heinlein. Perfect People facing Terrible Situations and coming up with Perfect Solutions. By the way, both of these last two books are by Harry Harrison. Wayne Barber BITNET: Barber@Portland ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 86 18:04:04 GMT From: tellab5!barth@caip.rutgers.edu (Barth Richards) Subject: Re: Tripods TV Seris sds5044@ritcv.UUCP (Steven D. Smith) writes: > I have some questons concerning Tripods. >1. Is the series on public TV presently, Tripods I or TrIpods II? Both the first and second series have been run on the PBS station here in Chicago (WTTW, Ch. 11). >2. The last episode I saw was Beanpole dragging Will out of the > river leading to the great city. What will become of Fritz still > in the city? That is not disclosed until the third part of the trilogy, which apparently, will never be made into a tv series. (AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!) Read the books!!! >3. Is this series exactly as the trilogy when it was written? The episodes that I saw from the first series indicated to me that the BBC was following the original first book (THE WHITE MOUNTAINS) almost to the letter. (I think. It's been a long time since I read the books.) The second series followed the basic plot of the second book (THE CITY OF LEAD AND GOLD). In many places, it almost exactly followed the book (most of the journey to the games), in others, the script writers took huge liberties and mucked about with the story. In the book, the slaves' life in the Master's city was much different. The temperature was very high and the force of gravity was artificially increased, both to accommodate the Master's comfort. There were no "black guards" in the city, no women slaves (at least none that were kept alive. I only remember the bodies in the "Hall of Beauty.") There was no vast network of passages and rooms with human-breathable atmosphere connecting slaves' quarters, rest areas, and work stations. The slaves had small, isolated chambers within their master's apartment with breathable air, a food dispenser, and plumbing. There were also "public" way stations or rest areas within the city for slaves with similar accommodations. Slaves who worked in factories, instead of for a particular Master, seemed to live in chambers associated with the factory they worked in. There were CERTIANLY *NO* *DISCOS*!! (sheez!) The Cognasi were purely the invention of the BBC script writers. The Masters did not build their city around a 20th century atomic power station. The masters had their own, more advanced, means of generating power, which the slaves were not allowed to even begin to understand, much less operate for the masters. All in all, the original book painted a much bleaker life for slaves in the city. The sense of isolation felt by Will and Fritz in the city was greatly diminished by the BBC's attempt to "dress up" the original story. This is especially irritating, because they left out a lot of things from the book that would have been just as easy to do (maybe even easier) than some of the garbage that was added. >4. Now that Will and Beanpole are together, will they get a chance > to talk to Julius? The second series ended where the second book did (I think), with Will and Beanpole returning to the White Mountains and finding the original resitance headquarters abandoned. (Actually, the tv series showed that it had been attacked, and was deserted.) The third book of the trilogy (THE POOL OF FIRE) tells of what happens after that. Though the books are somewhat difficult to get a hold of, and were written for a grade school/jr. high reading level, I still suggest that you read the trilogy, and therefore, I decline from posting any spoilers here. >5. Can anyone drop me a hint about how this all ends? No. (See above.) > Will the Tripods be destroyed? (See above.) I know, I know. Call me an asshole, but I think anyone who's interested should read the books. They're great. (As are John Christopher's other sci-fi trilogies.) If anyone has any info on where to obtain copies of the trilogy please post, as I know that others on the net might be interested (Steven Smith for one :-), me for another). Barth Richards Tellabs, Inc. Lisle, IL ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 86 18:06:54 GMT From: kalash@ingres.Berkeley.EDU.ARPA (Joe Kalash) Subject: Re: Japanese Animation: An Introduction for the Uninitiated mwtilden@watmath.UUCP (M.W. Tilden, Hardware) writes: >For those of you not familiar, Japanese TV is apparently almost 30% >"cartoons". Having recently lived in Japan for four months, and having watched a fair amount (certainly too much) of TV, I can say reasonably certainly that the amount of "cartoons" is pretty small. I would guess that less than 10% is animated. Almost all the stuff on TV is live drama/comedy/ movies/similar fare. They also don't have cartoons on saturday mornings :-(. Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 86 22:24:09 GMT From: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu (Tukla Oly, Pakrat) Subject: Re: Aspiring Author's Request >From: Scott Schneider > Does anybody have any suggestions on what an unpublished author >can do with a 19,000 word (approx.) long short-story/short novel >(sf, of course)? I've already shown it to all the friends and >professors I could find (and revised it accordingly) over the last >two years and am anxious to send it out to meet the big, bad world. Go to your local library and look for a book called "The 1986 Writers Market". It should have a list of publishers in all categories. I personally think you should try Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine or Amazing stories as your first places of submission. They handle new writers very well. And your work, at the length you describe, is a novella. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 May 86 0808-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #133 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 28 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 133 Today's Topics: Books - Calvino & Herbert & Varley & Footfall & Smart Herds, Films - Kamikaze '89, Television - Star Trek & Doctor Who, Miscellaneous - The Orson Welles Cinema & Aspiring Authors & Non-alcoholic Drinks & Great Literature (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 May 86 04:42:05 GMT From: reed!soren@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Invisible Cities On net.recomendation, I read Calvino's Invisible Cities. While I quite enjoyed it, I am fairly sure I missed a fair amount (like, say, the point). Could some of the net.literature.gurus explain what is going on, what Calvino is trying to do, etc? Thank you. Soren Petersen ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 86 20:45:58 GMT From: hropus!jin@caip.rutgers.edu (Jerry Natowitz) Subject: Re: Herbert books > I had been wondering about other stories about McKie myself. I > did find one more, a short story in World(s) of Frank Herbert. I > believe it was called The Thoughtful Saboteur, or Tactful, or > something like that. It is about McKie involved in a trial, a Pan > Spechi one, I think. I believe it comes before the other two > stories because of some stuff mentioned about Bildoon, who was the > head of the comission for which McKie worked, or something like > that. There is no mention made of the (sorry I've forgotten what > they're called) beings from the other two books, you know, like > Fanny Mae. The story is The Tactful Saboteur, the collection is The Worlds of Frank Herbert. The collection is copyrighted 1971, the stories from 1958 to 1967 (no individual copyrights). ihnp4!houxm!hropus!jin ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 86 19:50:12 GMT From: pyrla!cracraft@caip.rutgers.edu (Stuart Cracraft) Subject: John Varley Does anyone know what John Varley is up to these days? This is the current list of books I know he has written (and their original titles): The Ophiuchi Hotline The Persistence of Vision The Barbie Murders Titan Wizard Demon Millenium Ever since he started writing novels (instead of collections of short stories), I have been very disappointed with Varley. Although Ophiuchi Hotline was a novel, I still feel it is better than any of his recent "epics" such as the Titan-Wizard-Demon exercise in boredom. Even Millenium is not very good, although it shows some creativity. The absolute standout continues to be The Persistence of Vision, perhaps the most significant collection of short stories by a single SF author to have been published since 1975. In my humble opinion, everything else Varley has written pales in comparison to the beautiful and delicate stories in that collection. Does anyone know what his current plans are? What's next from Varley's pen? Stuart Cracraft trwrb!pyrla!cracraft ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 86 00:00:17 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: FOOTFALL friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes: >They would be very interested to hear that you think they are >cardboard! Most of the characters in FOOTFALL are real >people!(names changed to protect the ??) I even know some of them >myself. Just because a character in a book is based on a real live person doesn't prevent it from being two-dimensional. A real person is much more complex than any representation on paper can be; and an inadequate representation will result in a cardboard character. This is in no way a reflection on the person represented. Myself, I would describe the characterisation in _Footfall_ as mediocre -- it wasn't bad, but it doesn't stand out. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 86 08:54:10 EDT From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Jim White) Subject: Smart Herds Jon Pugh writes re: FOOTFALL; >Does anyone know of other stories involving intelligent herd >societies? How about Niven's Known space characters, the Pearsons Puppeteers ? They define the term. To the point of calling a lone Puppeteer insane, and their leader, the Hindmost. ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 86 22:35:44 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: KAMIKAZE '89 KAMIKAZE '89 A film review by Mark R. Leeper Capsule review: German import film gives a confused look at the year 1989 with a hard-to-follow story. Some interesting images. An unlikely formula that seems to be the basis of a number of science fiction films since ALPHAVILLE is the futuristic detective story. The story is part mystery, part travelogue visit to a future society. In addition to ALPHAVILLE, we have LAST DAYS OF MAN ON EARTH, RUNAWAY, BLADERUNNER, and the 1982 German KAMIKAZE '89. It is 1989. All is in order. Pollution and dangerous drugs are just bad memories. Poverty and starvation have been eradicated. Germany is the richest and most powerful country in the world and Germany is virtually ruled by "The Concern." "The Concern" is a megalithic conglomerate that (among other things) runs Germany's media. 98% of Germany tunes in to see entertaining programs like laughing contests and to read comic strips in which the Blue Panther fights the evil organization Krysmopompas. Krysmopompas may or may not be a real organization but the few discontents of society have taken its name to be their battle cry. Somebody, perhaps Krysmopompas, has made a bomb threat on the Concern's offices and Police Chief Inspector Jansen (played by art film director Rainer Werner Fassbinder) is called in to investigate. Jansen is a consummate slob in his leopard-spotted leisure suits. Even his car and the handle of his gun are decorated in leopardskin. Jansen's adventures in the pop-art near-future world are more confusing than enlightening. And any understanding of the plot that the viewer gleans are hard-won victories over a film style intended to obscure rather than to enlighten. Still, every once in a while director Wolf Gremm gives the viewer a tantalizing look at a sort of pop-art future with millions anesthetized by the totally banal media that the Concern serves up. And we see Jansen's frustration with the banal society and his retreat into images of adventure and the untamed. KAMIKAZE '89 is hardly the most entertaining film available in video stores. It is a hard film to watch and nearly impossible to follow. But stick with it. There is more to this than meets the eye. I would give it a 0 on the -4 to +4 scale. Maybe if the story were better told it would have been rated higher. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 86 10:05:40 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Flat cats >Lowell "Buster" Stone's "Flat Cat" is a lot like Jim-Marlowe's >"Bouncer" Willis.... In a fast aside.... The producers of Star Trek decided they had to clear it with Heinlein before filming The Trouble With Tribbles....seems the Tribbles were too close to the Cats. ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 86 16:49:05 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Who's the Master? :-) michaelm@3comvax.UUCP writes: >Why should it matter if the actor playing the Master died? That's >the beauty of the rationale of the Doctor (and other time lords) >regenerating -- they can always replace anyone! Unless someone in charge at the studio decides that no actor can successfully play the part, or some such. The Master got tabled. >Also, remember Tom Baker in *Logopolis* saying of the Master and >himself: "In many ways we have the *same* mind." (Although, I >believe he implied this was because they were both time lords.) I don't know episode names for late Davison, but -- the episode where Turlough leaves. The Master says something about ``you wouldn't do this to your--'' -- curtain. My sister and I (both avid Who'ers) decided the next word just HAD to be ``brother''. Brandon decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 CIS 74106,1032 MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 86 12:14 EDT From: William M. York Subject: The Orson Welles Cinema To: RWK@SCRC-YUKON.ARPA, film@SCRC-YUKON.ARPA From: Robert W. Kerns >The Orson Welles Cinema in Cambridge has just had a major fire. I >hope this does not lead to its demise; this area has lost too many >repertoire theatres already. It said in the paper that they were committed to reopening the theater as soon as possible. It will clearly be a while. Apparently the fire started in the popcorn popper. I hope that this does not lead to the demise of fresh popcorn! ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 86 17:09:15 GMT From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Aspiring Author's Request From: Scott Schneider > Does anybody have any suggestions on what an unpublished >author can do with a 19,000 word (approx.) long short-story/short >novel (sf, of course)? I've already shown it to all the friends >and professors I could find (and revised it accordingly) over the >last two years and am anxious to send it out to meet the big, bad >world. Send it out. Type it up nicely, double spaced, wide margins, preferably in pica (10-per-inch) but NOT NOT NOT in troff or TeX typesetting (I don't know why, but editors hate it) and start sending it to editors. Always include an SASE. (If you can get photocopying at a decent rate, then send it out with only a #10 SASE and a note that says "please don't bother to return the manuscript." It is probably cheaper to pay the photocopying than the postage.) I'm always told "don't bother with a cover letter," but I always send one, I can't resist. Don't bother to say anything more than "Here's my story, which I'm offering at your usual rates" unless you know the editor personally, becuase they throw the letters away immediately anyway. Once it goes in the mail, try to forget about it for six weeks to two months: doesn't matter what they say their response time is (unless you send it to Twilight Zone, which takes MONTHS and MONTHS) give them at least two months. If you haven't heard from them by then, send them a nice note that says something to the effect of "did you-all get my story title so-and-so? Have you considered it?" Having put it in the mail, start writing something else: you'll learn a helluva sight more if you write a dozen stories with some of them still having flaws than if you keep re-writing a single 20Kword story for two years. Not that I've sold anything, but I've gotten *really* good at sending the stories out. By the way -- sorry for posting this to the net, but I couldn't find a path that didn't flake out somewhere. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 86 08:36 PDT From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Non-alcoholic PGGBs? How in the world do you have your brains smashed out by a lemon wrapped around a gold brick, without any alcohol? It seems impossible to me. Perhaps some green food coloring and water with a drop of peppermint extract for flavor? Those Jupiter Sunrises are so nice I can get my girlfriend to drink them and she's the closest thing to being a teetotaller without actually being one that there is on this planet. Yummy. Jon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 86 01:59:36 -0800 From: Alastair Milne Subject: Re: "Great" literature > Shakespeare was a Hack! An "Upstart Crow" composing plays at the > speed of his pen. Yet he is considered Great -- now. Discuss this please. Two points here seem open to me: 1 - I thought Shakespeare was as well known in his own day as he is today as one of the greatest writers in English, although the audiences at the time may have favoured, say, his tragedies less than we usually do now. 2 - Why a "Hack"? Two other men (at least) are renowned for having churned out works at a rate scarcely possible for a human being: Franz Josef Haydn and, particularly, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. Time and again their works were masterpieces, acknowledged so by the public at the time, and ever since. So it seems to me that speed alone does not make one a hack. What, therefore, leads you to this conclusion about Shakespeare? > It is a saddening trend to equate incomprehensible with greatness. > (I don't understand a word, therefore it must be great literature > -- feh! baloney! ptoui!) Truly great literature transcends all > this -- tying the reader into something greater, challenging on > many levels, yet still entertaining (though some great literature > does not withstand/transcend the passage of time to become Great > Literature) -- for the lesson/meaning given in entertainment more > often sticks. Agreed completely! If the simplified diet of which so much TV and films consist continues to lead people into considering powerful works as technical challenges to be overcome with gritted teeth and determination, rather than incredible experiences to be delighted in and marvelled at, it will do us all a terrible disservice. Thank you, Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 86 07:04:32 GMT From: 6103014@pucc.BITNET (Harold Feld) Subject: Re: Literature and categories >Ref: your recent flaming in SF-LOVERS: > All I'm saying is that I hope you don't draw too strict a >line between the great lit and "the sf ghetto" as it is still too >often miscalled. Why do people insist that there is a "Science Fiction ghetto." I would say that the percentage of "Great Literature" (which I define as literature which is still enjoyable and/or relevant in any century) which comes from SF sources is equal to the amount of 'Great Literature' that comes from main stream. Sure 90% of all SF is crap, but then again, 90% of *everything* is crap. (Qoute from Theodore Sturgeon). ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 86 21:47:06 GMT From: hammer!patcl@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: "Great" literature krantz@csd2.UUCP (Michaelntz) writes: >In rare cases, I would even say that there are SF writers who >approach 'literature' status: Gene Wolfe's "Book of the Sun" >tetralogy and Samuel Delany's "Dhalgren" being the prime examples. >But most SF does not approach contemporary literature in what you >quaintly call 'hidden meaning'. > >...quick, easy, bright and entertaining, without making too much of >a demand on your intellect, which describes most SF. I'll bet you >don't like Wolfe, do you? *HE*, among all SF writers, may have >produced the best literature. I was just going to let this pass into ~/News/septictank when my BS daemon went crazy at the mention of Gene Wolfe. It is appropriate that krantz@csd2 should use Wolfe to support his views. Wolfe's writing is either "literature" or it is boring dreck. I subscribe to the latter interpretation. Yet, somehow, much writing that is deliberately turgid and weighed down with excess static verbiage (while short on real ideas) is termed by some to be "literature"; those who declare it so thereby feeling that they have raised themselves to an intellectual plateau upon which they can feel unique and especially insightful. In my opinion, much of the accepted demarcation of the "literature" domain rests on such a basis. The determination of what is "great" writing is *entirely* subjective (notwithstanding the pronouncements of the literary establishement). There are no absolutes in this area, although there will always be an abundance of people who expound as if there were (especially among those calling themselves *critics*). Pat Clancy ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 May 86 0829-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #134 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 29 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 134 Today's Topics: Books - Ellison & Garrett & Varley & Generation Ship Stories (2 msgs) & Request for Author Information, Television - Tripods & Doctor Who & Japanese Animation, Miscellaneous - Copyright Information & Great Literature & Filksongs (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 May 86 01:55:54 GMT From: pyrla!cracraft@caip.rutgers.edu (Stuart Cracraft) Subject: A Phone Conversation with Harlan Ellison Fairly recently, I heard through LOCUS magazine of a horrible 10-year depression Harlan Ellison, one of my two or three favorite SF authors, suffered through. I am no doctor, but I have read up on the subject and decided to get up the temerity to give Harlan a call and make a suggestion, in this case the reading of a book which I thought might help him avoid future depressions now that the worst of his seemed to be over. Having heard bad rumors about people who have talked with Harlan and his behavior, I went in with trepidation and called up his phone number, but only his phone-answering machine responded. I left my message, consisting of my reporting of having heard about his depression through the LOCUS article, and the name of the book I recommended, along with my name and phone number. A week or two later, I called up again, to confirm that he had received the message. This time, the Enfants Terribles ... or should I now say, the Monstre Sacre (indicating increased maturity) answered the phone, and good ol' Harlan was a'speaking! Anyway, he said, yes, he sufferred, but that it was purely a chemical depression, caused by an imbalance of certain chemicals in the brain, and that he didn't really need a book to help him out. Fine. No problem. Perhaps not as polite, but then when you figure how many psycho calls he receives by being in the phone book and by being a public personage, it wasn't too bad of a performance by him. I complimented him on his writing and then we ended the conversation. If you have something to tell him, give him a ring. If you do, you should probably have something specific to ask or comment about. His phone number is (213) 271-9636. Stuart Cracraft ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 86 04:21:00 GMT From: jimb@ism780 Subject: re: the state of Randall Garrett's health What I have heard -- AND CAN NOT VERIFY -- is that he has a condition that is (or is similar to) advanced Alzheimer's. This does fit with other info. that I've seen, but it may not be absolutely true. I heard it at a con, but can't remember (oops!) which one or who might have said it. Jim Brunet ihnp4/ima/ISM780 hplabs/hao/ico/ISM780 sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ISM780C/ISM780 ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 86 17:01:45 GMT From: kalash@ingres.Berkeley.EDU.ARPA (Joe Kalash) Subject: Re: John Varley cracraft@pyrla.UUCP (Stuart Cracraft) writes: >Does anyone know what John Varley is up to these days? >Does anyone know what his current plans are? What's next from >Varley's pen? You will be happy to know that he has just come out with a new book of short stories titled "Blue Champagne". However, it is published by a small press called "Dark Harvest" and only in hard back. If you really want a copy, you should probably find a specialty store, or dealer (like Zeising, of Currey). I have no idea when it will be available in paperback. Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 86 02:49:03 GMT From: wales@ucla-cs.ARPA (Rich Wales) Subject: Generation-ship stories? I would like to get as many pointers as possible to stories involving "generation ships" (multi-generational, slower-than-light space colonization efforts). I am already aware of the following stories: PHOENIX WITHOUT ASHES, by Harlan Ellison. An outcast from a Puritanesque society discovers that his world is in fact part of a huge generation ship -- the crew of which died long ago in an unknown disaster. THE GALACTIC WHIRLPOOL (Star Trek novel), by David Gerrold. The Enterprise discovers a generation ship whose society has been disrupted by civil war, and whose people have largely forgotten their origins. FOR THE WORLD IS HOLLOW AND I HAVE TOUCHED THE SKY (Star Trek episode). The Enterprise discovers a generation ship controlled by a computer, sent out by an advanced (but now long-dead) civilization. The people on board do not know they are on a ship, and in fact are forbidden by their computer-enforced social order from speculating on their origins. PROCYON'S PROMISE, by Michael McCollum. A generation ship was sent out from Earth long before in search of faster-than-light travel; the descendants finally return, to an Earth which is not exactly prepared for them. One common thread through many of these stories is that the passengers don't realize they are on a ship at all. The idea of keeping the people on a generation ship in ignorance is one way of handling (or, rather, avoiding) the psychological trauma of knowing that you will spend the rest of your life in a spaceship. THE GALACTIC WHIRLPOOL suggests that its generation ship didn't start out this way, but that things degenerated after a civil war (brought on when some of the passengers wanted to choose a marginally inhabitable planet for colonization). A second idea is that the self-contained civilization in a generation ship is inherently quite susceptible to any disruption; that this fragility naturally leads to a closed, tightly regulated society; and that such a dictatorial system is liable to create many more problems than it might solve if a crisis actually does arise. Anyway, I'm sure that other authors have explored the in's and out's of life on a generation ship -- and I'd like to read more stories on this theme. Send me mail (to the address below if possible -- NOT to the torturously long news path!), and I will summarize in a while if I hear anything from anyone. Rich Wales UCLA Computer Science Department +1 213-825-5683 3531 Boelter Hall Los Angeles, California 90024 USA wales@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU ...!(ucbvax,ihnp4)!ucla-cs!wales ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 86 17:56:27 GMT From: 6103014@pucc.BITNET (Harold Feld) Subject: Generation Ship Stories! Don't forget Heinlein's classic: Orphans Of the Sky. (contains 2 novellas, Common Sense and Universe. Also *The Promised Land* by (I think) Simak. His point was that while the ship was in flight, even though the passengers knew that it was a generation ship going to another planet, the planet became equivalent to paradise, the "Promised Land Syndrome." HAROLD FELD BITNET: 6090617@PUCC (preferably) UUCP: ...ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET!6090617 ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 86 04:24:00 GMT From: jimb@ism780 Subject: query: John Kessel, Joyce Thompson Can anyone give me pointers to works by John Kessel and/or Joyce Thompson? I'm looking for a general description of the types of stories they write, titles, date & place of publication. Thanks much. Jim Brunet ihnp4/ima/ISM780 hplabs/hao/ico/ISM780 sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ISM780C/ISM780 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 86 02:11:27 -0700 From: J. Peter Alfke Subject: Re: Tripods Eyal mozes writes: >To start with the third question: no, it is definitely not exactly >like the trilogy. There are many disappointing differences, some of >them silly (for example, they changed the name of one of the heros >from Jean-Pierre to Jean-Paul, and his nickname from Jumper to >Beanpole; the reason for that escapes me). Um, I haven't seen any of the TV shows, but don't you have this backwards? The French boy's name in the books was definitely Jean-Paul, and they called him "Beanpole". How is it in the TV series? I would like to know how they did "The City of Gold and Lead". I can't imagine them having the budget to do the story properly! Peter Alfke alfke@csvax.caltech.edu ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 1986 07:27:49 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson) Subject: The Private Life of Doctor Who From: brahms!jablow@caip.rutgers.edu >Who knows what the Doctor does with his companions? At least in >private; this is a children's show. If it were just a children's show, would we be discussing it on the net? And I really don't think that the Doctor would do anything unwholesome with his female companions. John Nathan-Turner once said (in a Time magazine interview about Doctor Who--I can't recall the issue) that "there's no hanky-panky in the TARDIS." Carlo Samson U09862 @ uicvm ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 86 17:51:41 GMT From: well!tenney@caip.rutgers.edu (Glenn S. Tenney) Subject: Re: Japanese Animation: An Introduction for the Uninitiated Although not directly about animation, when I was in Japan I noticed all the newstands selling these thick comic books (with the artwork similar to their animation). I bought a couple of these comic books to take home for the kids. I hadn't really looked at them 'til I got home. My wife and I were really amused to find that these are definitely ADULT comic books (over an inch thick) and rather explicit too. Needless to say the kids would have enjoyed it (they are teenagers), but we didn't give them the chance. Glenn Tenney UUCP: {hplabs,glacier,lll-crg,ihnp4!ptsfa}!well!tenney ARPA: well!tenney@LLL-CRG.ARPA Delphi and MCI Mail: TENNEY ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 86 21:41:22 GMT From: hdsvx1!hoffman@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Hoffman) Subject: Re: Copyright-page info wmartin@brl-smoke.ARPA (Will Martin ) writes: >Is there a legal requirement for giving any information about past >printing history on the copyright page of a book? Often, you will >see a notice such as: "Portions of this novel appeared previously >in Dead Frog Magazine under the title of 'The Bubbling Axolotl', >copyright The Amphibian Publishers, 1983" or the like. But is >providing such data required by any legal rules? Or is it done only >in certain circumstances, and what determines those? I don't think there is a legal requirement for a copyright page at all, let alone requirements for printing histories. If you want to protect the copyright to your book, there is a requirement to prominently display a copyright notice somewhere, preferably at the beginning of the book. If you are using previously copyrighted material which does not belong to you (as in the case you cite above), you need permission to use the material, and frequently the terms of that permission demand that an acknowledgement of the original copyright holder be given. The copyright page is a convenient place to display this kind of information (but not necessarily the *only* place -- "Forewords" and "Introductions" are sometimes used as well), as well as Library of Congress and other catalogue information. Richard Hoffman hoffman%hdsvx1@slb-doll.csnet ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 86 04:11:00 GMT From: jimb@ism780 Subject: Re: "Great" literature Now entering flame mode. Viewing literary writing as being "deliberately turgid" and "weighed down with excess static verbiage" (a pretty phrase, but what does it *mean*?) is a nice mirror image of the attitudes of the pin-heads who dismiss science and mathematics as a lot of obscure tom-foolery on the grounds that they don't understand it. To confess ignorance is laudable, to boast of it is execrable. Literary classics are those that have borne the tests of time, recognized by readers of many times and cultures as works that transcend any one given time and place and speak directly to the universal (or near-universal) human condition. More contemporary works can be deemed "great literature" on the grounds of their sharing this transcendent quality with the classics; whether they are "great", of course, only time will tell, but significant congruences between the essence of a contemporary work and a classic would seem to be at least a reasonable basis for making the comparison. If you don't *understand* and don't want to make the effort to learn, there are plenty of sitcoms and mini-series for you, as well as plot-oriented pot-boilers to read, so quit squalling from your playpen. Jim Brunet ihnp4/ima/ISM780 hplabs/hao/ico/ISM780 sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ISM780C/ISM780 ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 86 23:58:47 GMT From: ptsfd!djo@caip.rutgers.edu (Dan'l Oakes) Subject: Re: the absolutely positively hopefuly real origin of Subject: filksong k@mit-eddie.UUCP (Kathy Wienhold) writes: >>The origin of the word filk dates back to a long ago NASFIC. The >>words "Folk Songs" were misprinted on the program as "Filk Sings". >>The rest is, of course, history..... Nonsense. The first NASFIC was held in the geologically recent past, and filksinging is much older. Can't any of you see a humptian portmanteau word when you see one? FILTHY FOLK SONG, such as "Eskimo Nell" and "Barnacle Bill." These and others were sung at latenight con parties, and the word "filk" got attached to them first, then to other songs sung at the same parties, and finally, by a metonymy which escapes me, left the original songs and became attached only to what are now called filksongs -- although please note that such authorities as "The HopSFA Hymnal" include "Barnacle Bill," "Eskimo Nell", "The B*st*rd King of England," and others in their list of filksongs. As to NASFIC, it is a convention held in North America to console those who can't afford to go to WorldCon when it's held on another continent. (Does Europe have any similar cons when it's here, or in Australia?) Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 86 08:16 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: filk Cc: 6103104%pucc@ucbvax.ARPA For best overall filker, Leslie Fish gets my hardy second place vote. Julia Ecklar wins hands down. Julia easily has the best voice in filkdom (and, I think, the best out of it, too) and has great talent as a composer. But her greatest talent lies in the way she makes her listeners think that she's singing about her personal experiences, no matter what the song's about. When she sings "Daddy's Little Girl" based on Stephen King's Firestarter, she can get a whole room full of people looking nervously toward the fire exits. A few years ago, I would have granted that Leslie played a better twelve-string guitar, but Julia's pretty nearly her rival there, too, now, and plays a great 6 string, as well. For interested parties, Off Centaur Publications sells quite a number of tapes, Julia's, Leslie's, Best Of tapes from various cons, as well as music books. Off Centaur Publications P.O. Box 424 El Cerrito, CA 94530 They also have the following 60 minute tapes: The Horse-Tamer's Daughter (on the theme of unusual women, sung by Julia Ecklar) Genesis (by Julia Ecklar, including several terrific Star Trek songs, my favorite tape) Minus Ten and Counting (songs of the space age, featuring Julia and Leslie) Brandywine (folk music, featuring Julia and Leslie) A Wolfrider's Reflections(Julia does Elfquest) Space Heros and Other Fools (Julia and Anne Harlan Prather) Cold Iron (Leslie Fish sings Rudyard Kipling) Skybound (Leslie Fish, includes all of the songs that were on "Folk songs for folk . . ." plus some) I have no connection with Off Centaur and have presented the above information in an effort to spread the joy of filk, especially Julia's filk, around. Lisa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 May 86 0836-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #135 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 29 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 135 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (10 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 19 May 86 20:06:46 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Tolkien - another can of worms daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp) writes: > Anyway, in "The Silmarillion" and other places, it says that >Melkor (or Morgoth, as you prefer) created the Orcs by doing nasty >things to captured Elves, whom he abducted from around Lake >Cuivienen before the Valar found the Firstborn. As we all know, >Elves are immortal, their lives being bound to Middle-Earth and all >that; so, *does the same apply to Orcs???* > And what happens to a dead Orc? Does it go to a special section of >the Halls Of Nienor (sp?) and get reborn later on, like Elves do (I >think)? I had always assumed that Orcs were like Elves in being immortal unless killed. Of course being so violent they would tend to get killed alot sooner than Elves! Where do they go on death? I don't know, perhaps they are expelled into the Outer Dark like Morgoth? > Food for thought: in "Return Of The King", two of the >Mordor Orcs are overheard by Frodo and/or Sam discussing the >upcoming war, and say something like "It'll be just like the bad >old days". Does this mean > (a) The Battle Of The Five Armies at the end of "The > Hobbit". Most recent, but seems unlikely. > (b) The seige of Barad-Dur at the end of the Second Age by > Isildur and Co., at the time of the Last Alliance. > (c) The final battle outside Thangorodrim at the end of The > First Age; in which case those orcs have got a *looong* > memory. I would say either b) or c) since both were followed by periods during which Orcs were outlaws and had a hard time staying alive. I guess b) is most likely. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 86 20:16:57 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Tolkien "magic" lkeber@ulowell.UUCP writes: >S7YLF4%IRISHMVS@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes: >>Tolkien "magic" is often less apparent and specific than most >>other fantasy magic. The only specific magic I can think of are >>Gandalf's fireworks and the invisibility the Ring confers. The >>other magic is much more ephemeral, consisting mostly of >>animatistic forces. In fact, some of the "magic" in Tolkien can >>be likened to things we believe in, such as "charisma", "selling >>power", etc. > >There are several other examples of magic in Tolkien's works. In >LotR, there is Galadriel's magic mirror, and crystal. Also, the >Palantirs, the Ring, and the Elvish swords which glow in the >presense of Orcs. In The Silmarillion, Melian's defense of her >forest, the Silmarils, and the Songs of Power. Most of these are >not too ephemeral. There are other examples too. Some rather ephemeral, but still quite definite. There was the beam of light Gandalf used to ward off the Ringwraiths during the siege of Minas Tirith. For that matter I have lost count of the number of times Gandalf lit a fire by magic (Naur an edraith ammen!) How about Galadriel's protection of Lorien? That is said to be similar in nature to Melian's protection of Doriath. I rather liked the spell(or enchanted battering ram) used by the Lord of the Ringwraiths to blast the Gates of Minas Tirith! I would suggest that anyone who does not see much magic in LOTR re-read the books keeping in mind that every time he writes "as if by magic", or some variant thereon, it probably *is* magic! Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 86 14:56:30 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Tom Bombadil >From: winalski%psw.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Paul S. Winalski) >I think it is most likely that Tom Bombadil and the river daughter >are Maiar. > >When Valinor was built, the Valar and most of the Maiar left Middle >Earth to dwell there. Some remained behind or later left Valinor >and returned to Middle Earth (e.g., Melian).... > My belief is that he is one of the minor Maiar in service to >Yavanna (the river daughter probably serves Ulmo or Uinen). I agree. The Maiar were a very diverse bunch! The included Sauron, the Balrogs, the Istari, and Ungoliant! I would in fact say that the River Daughter was the special Maia of the Withywindle(sp?), or *perhaps* the Brandywine. That is she was what the Greeks would have called a Naiad. >Bombadil's behavior towards the Ring says nothing about the extent >of his power. Gandalf himself explained it to the Council of >Elrond. It is not that Bombadil has a power over the ring, rather >that it has no power over him. Things of craft and power (such as >the ring) have no hold on his mind. The Ring was trecherous to >Saruman and Gandalf not because they were Maiar, but because they >were loremasters. And also because they were *incarnate*, in more or less human bodies, thus making themselves subject to most of the influences that mortals were subject to. While Bombadil's body was uniquely his own and not subject to any influences designed for mortals. This explains why the purely "physical" effect of invisibility did not work on Bombadil. Beyond that your analysis is masterful. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 86 14:48:39 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Gandalf and his Ring hsgj@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Dan Green) writes: >I recently re-read the hobbit and the trilogy and something strange >occurred to me. When he possessed the ring, one of the "powers" >Frodo got was the ability to see rings worn by other people. This >is demonstrated when Frodo was in LothLorien, and could tell quite >easily that the Lady Galadrial had one of the 3 elf rings. Now the >question I have is this: Gandalf told Frodo early, early on in the >first book to throw the great ring in the fire to see if the ring >would melt (it didn't, obviously). This scene is one where Gandalf >and Frodo are together, Frodo has the ring, and both are >concentrating on the subject of rings. *** Why didn't Frodo see >the Ring of Fire on Gandalf's finger? *** Because possession isn't enough, a certain knowledge of the Ring and its operation, and a certain "rapport" with it are necessary for its powers to be manifested. At the beginning, Frodo had not "grown" in the power of the Ring enough to use it at all. Also, Lorien is closer to Mount Doom where the Ring was made, thus it was more powerful there. > Actually, now that I think about it, why didn't Frodo see the >ring when Gandalf was fighting the nasty balrog on the bridge of >Moria. There clearly was an instance where G's ring should have >been shining in fury, but Frodo (though he stared at the battle) >didn't see anything. I do not think the rings operated in this manner. Some of Gandalf's power over fire *may* have come from the ring, but it would never reveal itself by glowing or any such overt manifestation. It would just quietly do its job. Really, in the heat of battle, with spells going off all over the place and everyone running, I hardly think it likely that anything would really be noticed. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 86 20:01:43 GMT From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) Subject: Re: Gandalf and his Ring friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes: > Because possession isn't enough, a certain knowledge of the Ring >and its operation, and a certain "rappor" with it are necessary for >its powers to be manifested. At the beginning, Frodo had not >"grown" in the power of the Ring enough to use it at all. Also, >Lorien is closer to Mount Doom where the Ring was made, thus it was >more powerful there. Why do you think any of this is so? Frodo seemed to be able to use the chief powers of the ring all along: the invisiblity, the moving to the wraiths plane, and the preservation effects. I know Sauron would have derived other powers, but I thought there was a big point made about how ultimately only Sauron could use the ring. Did moving the ring toward Mt. Doom make it more powerful, or just make Sauron aware of it once it was there and in use? ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 86 14:48:43 GMT From: 6103014@pucc.BITNET (Harold Feld) Subject: re:The Ring and I vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) writes: >friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes: >> Because possession isn't enough, a certain knowledge of the >>Ring and its operation, and a certain "rappor" with it are >>necessary for its powers to be manifested. At the beginning, Frodo >>had not "grown" in the power of the Ring enough to use it at all. >>Also, Lorien is closer to Mount Doom where the Ring was made, thus >>it was more powerful there. > >Why do you think any of this is so? Frodo seemed to be able to use >the chief powers of the ring all along: the invisiblity, the moving >to the wraiths plane, and the preservation effects. I know Sauron >would have derived other powers, but I thought there was a big >point made about how ultimately only Sauron could use the ring. > >Did moving the ring toward Mt. Doom make it more powerful, or just >make Sauron aware of it once it was there and in use? I am afraid I am going to have to argue with bot of you. 1) the chief power of the ring was *not* invisibility, projection into the wraithrealm (same thing), or preservation. These were merely side effects to mortals who tried to wear the ring. The true power of the ring was a storage battery of energy that amplified the possesors power proportional to the possesors stature. (See chap 2 of Fellowship. Gandalf says in reference to Golum "IT gave him power according to his stature.") Sauron could probably draw even more power from it, since it was he who forged it and therefore understood best its secretes. In addition, it fit him since it was : "The better part of his strength of old." Moving the ring towards Oridruin did make it more powerful, also more difficult to resist. In reference to 611@mit's statement: 1) Lorien is not close enough to Orodruin to noticibly increase the rings power/detectibility. 2) Frodo had grown in power and stature as a result of his adventures. a fact that Galadriel notes after he has seen the ring on her finger. "Gonna take the ring, the golden golden ring "Taken it to old Oridruin. "For if Sauron gets the ring then we never more will sing "And the capture of the ring will be our ruin." Disclaimer: I did not write the above filk. Nor do I remember who did, although I wish I could since I like to give authors credit where possible. ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 86 05:23:07 GMT From: olsen@ll-xn.ARPA (Jim Olsen) Subject: Frodo and the One Ring Frodo was able to see Galadriel's ring because he bore the One Ring, and because he had just beheld the Eye of Sauron. In "Fellowship of the Ring", after Frodo has seen the Eye in the mirror of Galadriel, he sees her ring: Galadriel: "Yes, ... it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye. ... This is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant..." ... Frodo: "I am permitted to wear the One Ring: why cannot I see the others and know the thoughts of those that wear them?" Galadriel: "You have not tried ... Do not try! It would destroy you. ... Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others." Jim Olsen ARPA:olsen@ll-xn UUCP:{decvax,lll-crg,seismo}!ll-xn!olsen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1986 09:00 GMT From: Martin Hughes Subject: Tolkien list All the recent Tolkien talk has re-awakened my interest in the subject. There have been some more recent publications by Christopher, his son. Does anyone have a complete list of Lord-of-the-Rings-related books currently available in paperback on this side of the Atlantic? I know that some items aren't yet available:- does anyone have a list? ( with publication dates ) Thanks in advance, Martin BITNET: HUGHEE84@IRLEARN ARPA: HUGHEE84%IRLEARN.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.ARPA UUCP: ...seismo!mcvax!euroies!mhughes ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 86 06:17:29 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Gandalf and his Ring vis@trillian.UUCP (Tom Courtney) writes: >Why do you think any of this is so? Frodo seemed to be able to use >the chief powers of the ring all along: the invisiblity, the moving >to the wraiths plane, and the preservation effects. I know Sauron >would have derived other powers, but I thought there was a big >point made about how ultimately only Sauron could use the ring. I would not say thse were the "principle" powers, in fact I would call them the least powers. Also, I would say the invisibility and the wraith-existence are in fact the *same* power. Also note, these powers are ones which can apply without any act of *will* on the part of the bearer. All the other(greater) pwers require *some* amount of willful intent on the part of the user. Thus Frodo saw the Ring of Adamant when he was looking for magic, and he percieved things he more easily when he concentrated on what his sensations. Also, the point was not that only Sauron could truly use the Ring, but that it could only be fully used by someone who was equally dedicated to domination, and only by means of great effort and extensive study of the powers of the Ring(which Sauron already knew). Its *principle powers were ones of *domination* and *control*. Much of that came through knowledge, but it could also dominate the will of one who was susceptible to it. I think the most interesting example of its power was when Gollum(and the Ring as well) were cast into the Cracks of Doom by the curse Frodo had set on Gollum through the Ring! >Did moving the ring toward Mt. Doom make it more powerful, or just >make Sauron aware of it once it was there and in use? Both! It apparently drew much power from the heavy aura of magic around Mt Doom. But even on Amon Hen it would have revealed Frodo if he had not removed it. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 86 06:31:54 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Tolkien's languages Now to start the discussion I really want to have about Tolkien's languages. What follows is a small poem translated into accurate, well-attested High Elvish, that is Quenya. Can anyone out there figure out which poem? Even better, translate it? (Note: I am using double vowels to indicate length, since terminals will not overstrike) Min corma ilye caanien, Min corma te tuuvien, Min corma ilye yalien, Ar mii mornie te mandien. It should be rather easy if you know any Quenya vocabulary. For extra credit, what is the meaning of my signature name(Sarima), it is also Quenya, but it is not found in this form anywhere in the extant corpus. (No fair those of you I have explained it to answering!) Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 30 May 86 0849-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #136 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 30 May 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 136 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (2 msgs) & Morris & Footfall, Television - Doctor Who (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Aspiring Authors & The Tenth Planet & Filksongs & Conventions & Great Literature (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 May 86 21:18:52 GMT From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: RAH multiverses From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) >>>[...FRIDAY is in the same universe is ["Gulf"]] >> Along with "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", "The Rolling Stones", > >It has been argued that TMIaHM and Stones are in the same universe; >as far as I've seen, this claim rests solely on the duplication of >a redhead named Hazel Meade Stone. Since the HMS of Stones claims >to have been a colonist while the one in TMIaHM was a creche orphan >this is unlikely. The one in _The Rolling Stones_ was also a congenital liar, if you'll recall. The connection of the two books through Hazel seems entirely plausible to me. >But there isn't even this tenuous connection between the two latter >mentioned and the FRIDAY universe. On this point I agree; when Chip made the above claim I assumed that, while there was no indication that the "Gulf"/ _Friday_ timeline was connected to _The Rolling Stones_ and _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ that I knew of, RAH had brought them together in _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_, which I had not read at the time. Having since read _TCWHTW_, however, I must say that I noticed nothing in it which would indicate that the two timelines are connected. (Though it _does_ make the connection between _TRS_ and _TMiaHM_ more explicit, BTW.) pH ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 86 02:59:35 GMT From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: RAH multiverses > Friday calls Luna to speak to Bialey's lawyer. The moon is refered > to as Luna Free State. This answers your other objection about > Beanstalks. No, it doesn't. It presents evidence for the opposing view, but it doesn't deal with the point that he raises at all. > Also, look at the names of the colony worlds mentioned in both: >the only one I remember off hand is Fiddler's Green, but there were >several worlds I beleive that were both on the Space Liner's route >in Friday, and were mentioned in TCWWTW. Come on, you guys! Next thing you'll be telling me is that all his stories that have anything to do with Luna are all in the same universe, because they all mention Luna City. Or that his and Larry Niven's and who-knows-who-else's universes are all the same, because they all call the tenth planet in the Solar system Persephone. pH ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 1986 10:06:58 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson) Subject: Book review "Beyond Sanctuary" Janet Morris Baen Books Science Fiction Book Club edition The first "Thieves' World" novel, "Beyond Sanctuary" deals with Tempus and the Stepsons as they battle Roxane and the archmage Datan for control of Wizardwall. The first two chapters, "Wizard Weather" and "High Moon", first appeared in "Storm Season" and "The Face of Chaos", respectively. The story picks up from the end of "High Moon", when the Stepsons leave Sanctuary to follow Tempus to Wizardwall. I couldn't get into this book. The plot moved rather slowly, the writing was bland, and the characters, supposedly fleshed out in the previous novels, seemed like flat images on a television screen. Perhaps the reason for my lack of enthusiasm for this book stems from my confusion about certain plotlines in the series (What is the current state of the Empire? What's so important about Wizardwall? What *is* Wizardwall, anyway?). Or maybe its the writing itself (What's the deal with Vashanka? What's the story behind Roxane? Behind Ischade? Behind Tempus?). Or maybe the series itself (Why did the city suddenly break out into war in "The Dead of Winter"? What are the Beysib gonna do next? Where's Shadowspawn? Who really runs Sanctuary, anyway? Whatever happened to Jamie the Red? Does anyone have the faintest idea what the heck is going on in Thieves' World????) As you can probably guess, I seem to have suffered a cerebral meltdown somewhere along the line which affected my recollections of the TW series. But if you have read the previous books and you know what's going on, then buy the book for the sake of completeness, if nothing else. Otherwise, skip it. Carlo Samson U09862 @ uicvm ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 86 20:59:03 GMT From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) Subject: Footfall & SF Authors Does anyone know whether all of the SF authors on the Threat Team are based on real SF authors, and who they are based upon? The following fictional --> real correspondences seemed rather clear (at least to me): Robert Anson - Robert Anson Heinlein Wade Curtis - Jerry Pournelle Nat Reynolds - Larry Niven The following are guesses: Joe Ransom - Harlan Ellison? Sherry Atkinson - C. J. Cherryh? Anyone else have any ideas? Brian Yamauchi Carnegie-Mellon University Computer Science Department ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 86 05:12:29 GMT From: hdsvx1!hoffman@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Hoffman) Subject: Re: Who again? ins_bjab@jhunix.UUCP (Jessica A Browner) writes: >> Jon Pertwee had a theory that the Master was the Doctor's >> brother. How else to explain two extremely capable (but not >> always competent) super-scientists who continually try to do one >> another in, but always fail. > > What do you mean by how else you can explain it? It *is* >possible, you know, for two completely unrelated people to have >similar abilties. Do you also think that Sherlock Holmes and >Professor Moriarity were brothers? Actually, some people have proposed such a relationship, because Holmes and Moriarity seemed to read each other's thoughts so well, and to give each other so many "chances". And, just like Vader-Skywalker, there's so much *drama* implicit in the possibilities. But in the case of the Doctor, an even more interesting possibility presents itself: The Master could be a future regeneration of the doctor! Since the "Two Doctors" and the "five doctors" episodes indicate that when regenerations meet, they don't remember an incident from a previous point-of-view, there is no inconsistency here. I guess we *will* have to wait for "The Thirteen Doctors" (|=>) to find out. Richard Hoffman hoffman%hdsvx1@slb-doll.csnet ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 1986 08:51:38 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson Subject: Who's brother? The Master is in no way related to the Doctor. You'll recall that in "The Five Doctors," the First Doctor has no idea who the Master is when they meet in the Dark Tower. Carlo Samson U09862 @ uicvm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 86 14:07:04 PDT From: chuq%plaid@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Aspiring Author's Request >>From: Scott Schneider >> Does anybody have any suggestions on what an unpublished author >>can do with a 19,000 word (approx.) long short-story/short novel >From: Tukla Oly, Pakrat > Go to your local library and look for a book called "The 1986 >Writers Market". It should have a list of publishers in all >categories. I personally think you should try Isaac Asimov's >Science Fiction Magazine or Amazing stories as your first places of >submission. They handle new writers very well. And your work, at >the length you describe, is a novella. This is overly simplistic. There are two books that should be considered Bibles for writers. First is the above mentioned Writers Market, the second is the (finally out) 1986 Fiction Writers Market, which really has the information Scott is looking for -- Writers Market is primarily non-fiction markets in this edition. You also, if you're serious about writing, need to keep an eye on the changes to the market. For example, George Scithers is out at Amazing, and a TSR person is in. Amazing may well have been a strong market for new writers, but there is no guarantee the new guard will continue that. Shawna is out at IASFM, Gardner Dozois is in. There are two semi-pro zines that do a good job of keeping track of the musical chairs: Locus and SF Chronicle (write to me for subscription info). Also watch the monthly Writers Digest (available on any newsstand) for updates to the Market books. DON'T EVER send a story to a magazine just because it is a good market for beginners. That is a GREAT way to make the magazine stop looking at new fiction. Send it to the magazines that are appropriate markets for the stories, and if it is good you will sell regardless of whether or not you are a new writer. If it isn't good enough, it won't sell anywhere. If you're writing fantasy, for instance, don't send it to Analog. If it is nuts and bolts, you're better at Analog or Amazing than IASFM. IASFM likes upper stories rather than downers, so if you have a dark and stormy mood, look elsewhere (like F&SF). Don't just send to a magazine blindly -- if you don't read it regularly, you shouldn't be sending it stories. Another overlooked possibility is the LitMag market, small magazines that pay in goodwill and contributor copies. It is a good way to get exposure, earn your way into SFWA, and learn to be professional. There is a GREAT section in the 86 FWM on these things, and many of them have good submission to publication rations (1-10 to 1-100 as opposed to upwards of 1-500 for the big mags). Fantasy Book, Pandora, and those kinds of magazines are great if you're trying to break into the market and get good feedback on your work. you won't get rich (you may not cover your postage, for that matter) but you will be published. There is a good body of literature about how to be a professional author (as opposed to being an amateur writer). If you're interested, drop me a line and I'll put together a bibliography. Writing is a craft. So is being an author. Both need to be studied, and going off half-cocked does everyone a disservice. chuq ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 86 02:40:09 GMT From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Tenth planet (was Re: RAH multiverses) I wrote: > Or that his and Larry Niven's and who-knows-who-else's universes >are all the same, because they all call the tenth planet in the >Solar system Persephone. Come to think of it, does anybody have any idea how many sf authors do this? I've noticed that an awful lot do, but I've never taken the time to make up a list of them. Did one of them do it way back, and the others followed suit, or is there some kind of unspoken agreement, or what? pH ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 86 19:24:54 GMT From: 6103014@pucc.BITNET (Harold Feld) Subject: filk author? There are 2 filks that I heard at conventions and I cannot remember either the full text or the authors (Most annoying!). One goes: "We build and scrap and overhaul it each and every trip, We'll begin to show some profit when we build a whole new ship. But I wouldn't trade my worries for some company's monthly check. I'm the proud and nervous owner of half a flying wreck." The other goes: "Gonna take the ring, the golden golden ring, taken it to old Oridruin. For if Sauron gets the ring, Then we nevermore will sing. And the capture of the ring will be our ruin." Please post or E-Mail. HAROLD FELD BITNET: 6090617@PUCC (preferably) UUCP: ...ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET!6090617 ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 86 22:24:39 GMT From: pyrla!cracraft@caip.rutgers.edu (Stuart Cracraft) Subject: Southern California Conventions Does anyone have a list of upcoming SF conventions in the Los Angeles - San Diego area? If you do, please either post it to this list or send me a copy. Thank-you. Stuart Cracraft vortex!trwrb!pyrla!cracraft ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 86 16:08:01 GMT From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: "Great" literature patcl@hammer.UUCP (Pat Clancy) writes: >... Yet, somehow, much writing that is deliberately turgid and >weighed down with excess static verbiage (while short on real >ideas) is termed by some to be "literature"; those who declare it >so thereby feeling that they have raised themselves to an >intellectual plateau upon which they can feel unique and especially >insightful. In my opinion, much of the accepted demarcation of the >"literature" domain rests on such a basis. The determination of >what is "great" writing is *entirely* subjective (notwithstanding >the pronouncements of the literary establishement). There are no >absolutes in this area, ... [Ye gods, do we have to fight this battle YEARLY in net.sf-lovers?] 1. You obviously don't like Kritics or writing that seems to YOU to be "deliberately turgid" (whatever that means) and full of "static verbiage." Also, writing that's short on "real ideas:" as opposed to what, Pat? Phony ideas? Ideas you're not interested in? Human values? Sheesh. The trashiest "sci-fi" movie can be long on "real ideas;" does that make it valuable or worth seeing repeatedly? 2. You're plain wrong about the "accepted demarcation" line for literature. A work becomes literature because people generally believe it has lasting power: that is, it will be as relevant and rewarding a read a hundred years from now as it is today (for whatever reasons: usually because it deals with the time-less rather than the topical, something much SF is certainly not guilty of; you know, boring things like human passions, strengths, and failings). A work of literature also deals in some basic sense with what it is that makes us human: check out the classics, for example, written by people who have been dead for 20 centuries or more: THEY LIVE. 3. The determination of a work's relevance and lasting power is certainly not "entirely subjective." They are not quantifiable qualities, however, and THIS, it seems to me, is what enrages many engineers, compunerds, and net.sf-lovers about Kriticism and the humanities in general. What's at issue here is the value of things in life that are not quantifiable, Mr. Clancy, which happens to be the root cause (I think) for the interminable clash between the Two Cultures in our society. We're at a sad state as a culture if the only things we can value are those things that can be submitted to a cost/benefit analysis. Engineers seem to be uncomfortable with areas of human endeavor that can't be valued on a binary or quantitative basis. They tend to counter by devaluing those areas, and by using phrases like "subjective" and "no absolutes" as though they were pejoratives. This kind of humanities bashing is unattractive and proves NOTHING. Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 86 17:24:13 GMT From: olsen@ll-xn.ARPA (Jim Olsen) Subject: Re: "Great" literature wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes: >...The determination of a work's relevance and lasting power is >certainly not "entirely subjective." They are not quantifiable >qualities, however, and THIS, it seems to me, is what enrages many >engineers, compunerds, and net.sf-lovers about Kriticism and the >humanities in general... I believe Mr. Ingogly is mistaken: quantifiablity is not the issue. The irritating thing about proponents of "great literature" (and also of modern art and modern music) is the following attitude: I can recognize and appreciate great literature (or art, or music) and you can't. I am therefore a better person than you are. This attitude is obvious from the tone of Mr. Ingogly's posting. Writing with an air of smugness will invariably draw flames. Jim Olsen ARPA:olsen@ll-xn UUCP:{decvax,lll-crg,seismo}!ll-xn!olsen ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Jun 86 0831-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #137 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 2 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 137 Today's Topics: Books - Card & Gibson & Heinlein & Footfall, Films - Movie Sequels, Television - Tripods & Japanese Animation, Miscellaneous - Filksongs & More Drinks ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 May 86 12:50:06 EDT From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} Subject: Review of Ender's Game and Speaker For The Dead _Ender's_Game_ copyright 198 _Speaker_For_The_Dead_ copyright 1986 by Orson Scott Card Ender is a child, from what is essentially a breeding project for empathy. He is the most empathetic person on earth. Through a lack of love and a carefully conditioned environment, he is made into a killer and a survivor, kicking and screaming all the way, since he knows what he is becoming... empathy, don'tchaknow. He kills, and he survives, and then there is nothing for him to do. Such is _Ender's_Game_. In SFTD, he has been alive for 3000 years, through the relativity of near-light travel. He has seen his name run the gamut from that of Saviour to that of Destroyer, Maniac, Murderer. His empathy creates life and understanding from lies and decades long guilt, and averts a need for another like himself. He finds the atonement he has been seeking. I just got finished reading SFTD. The words drained, shellshocked, traumatized have significant meaning to my mental state right now. I am telling you the entire story of each book, and yet I am telling you nothing. Orson Scott Card could bring the walking dead to life, by showing to the insensitive of the world the life and love in all of us, creating in them the heretofore impossibility of understanding another human as human, another *species* as human. After the first chapter, the setting of the scene, _Speaker_For_The_Dead_ was predictable to me... the story had a necessity of form and character as a sonnet does, a ritual dance. Card writes simply, no sweeping descriptions, you don't know what the characters look like. But it doesn't matter, for it is their inner life you are looking at, the whole and the holes. The simplest truths are the most powerful. The talent that reached to the core of being in _SongHouse_, and showed you it's shape in _Ender's_Game_, molds you to it in _Speaker_For_The_Dead_. If you have any heart in you at all, read these books. If you don't, read them and hope to gain thereby. This writer deserves to shine, to be remembered. Even if you don't like his style, I don't think it is possible to be untouched. ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 86 21:45:54 GMT From: loral!ian@caip.rutgers.edu (Ian Kaplan) Subject: "Count Zero" by William Gibson "Count Zero" by William Gibson Arbor House Science fiction allows an author to project current reality into a future world that does not exist yet. Consider our world today. We are at the start of an information age. Computers are the medium of this age and are, by and large, produced by large companies like IBM and DEC. Year after year these companies grow larger and branch out into new areas. What will happen if companies like IBM, DEC, NEC and Fujitsu keep growing as they have been? Population dynamics should give us some clue. Computer power increases even faster than the multinational companies grow. A new generation of computers is being born. These systems are parallel processors. In ten years we may see computer systems that are composed of millions of processors. Coupled with the information revolution has been a quieter revolution in biology. In the last ten years scientist have been able to synthesize complex hormones like insulin that in the past could only be obtained from animal sources. The human genes linked to a number of disorders have been mapped. There is little doubt that there will come a time when the keys to evolution will be in the hands of the human race. Imagine a world fifty years or so in the future, when the multinational companies have become more powerful than nations. A time when computer systems of massive power are globally linked. Where some of these computer systems support artificial intelligences. A world where genetic and transplant technology can be used to alter the human form. This is the world that William Gibson first showed us in Neuromancer. In this world the computer breakers of today (called hackers by the media) have evolved into "cowboys" who break into the huge computers on the global network. The cowboys "jack in" to the computer network via consoles that provide direct stimulus to the brain. An illusion is generated to help people work on the global network. This illusion is referred to as the "cyberspace matrix" and appears as a vast three dimensional plain. The huge corporate computer systems are visualized as glowing structures on this plane. With the exception of the military computer systems, most computer systems today have very weak security. In Gibsons world, where information is recognized as both currency and power, computer systems are guarded by complex security systems. These security systems consist of both cryptographic measures and active counter measures that can kill the computer breaker by "flat lining" the brain ("flat line" refers to what would be seen on an EEG). The security systems are referred to as Intrusion Countermeasure Electronics, or ICE. The programs the cowboys use to break into these systems are referred to as icebreakers. Gibson's new novel, Count Zero, is set in the same universe as Neuromancer, but several years later. Count Zero is the "handle" of Bobby Newmark, who lives in a housing project and dreams of escaping to a better life by becoming a "cowboy". A small time black market dealer rents Bobby an icebreaker to use on his first cowboy run through the cyberspace matrix. The black market dealer even suggests a system to try the icebreaker out on. As it turns out the system is heavily guarded and Bobby is almost flat lined. The icebreaker is later stolen and the suppliers of the icebreaker attempt to recover it with Bobby's help. Gibson interweaves Bobby's story with threads from the lives of a corporate mercenary and a woman who previously owned an art gallery. Some of the other characters overlap from Neuromancer: Finn, the black market dealer in software is back and the three threads of the story are drawn together at the end of the book by remnants of the Tessier-Ashpool empire. Count Zero is highly recommended to those who liked Neuromancer or the movie Blade Runner. Ian Kaplan Loral Dataflow Group USENET: {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sdcsvax!sdcc6!loral!ian ARPA: sdcc6!loral!ian@UCSD ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 86 21:04:10 GMT From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) Subject: What is the "Gulf"? I've read quite a bit of Heinlein, including Friday, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and The Rolling Stones, but I've never heard of the "Gulf". Could somebody please elaborate? Is this a novel, short story, series, or what? Brian Yamauchi Carnegie-Mellon University Computer Science Department ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 86 20:42:51 GMT From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) Subject: Re: Footfall After finishing Footfall at 3:00 AM this morning (last night?), I can finally join the ongoing discussion. I thought that this was without question the best "Alien Invasion Story" that I have read. For once, the alien's are neither portrayed as bloodthirsty monsters nor victims of a "misunderstanding". They are warriors, but not psychopaths. As in Lucifer's Hammer/Mote in God's Eye/etc, the human characters were believable, if not all that well-developed. The action and suspense were non-stop, up until (literally) the last page. The ending was abrupt, but I disagree with those who say that this is a problem. It is obvious what would have happened next, and in this way, the writers avoid an anticlimax. Basically, it comes down to this. If you enjoyed Niven & Pournelle's earlier collaborations, especially Lucifer's Hammer and The Mote In God's Eye, you will enjoy Footfall. If you hated Niven & Pournelle's earlier novels, you will hate Footfall (your loss :-). Brian Yamauchi Carnegie-Mellon University Computer Science Department ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 1986 14:41:43 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson) Subject: Movie sequels At the end of the movie "The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai", they mentioned a sequel called "Buckaroo Banzai Against the World Crime League". Similarly, the movie "Sword and the Sorcerer" promised a sequel called "Tales of the Ancient Empire". Does anyone know if either of these sequels will ever be filmed? Carlo Samson U09862 @ uicvm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 86 10:06:01 -0200 From: Eyal mozes Subject: Re: The Tripods Cc: chris%umcp-cs@csnet-relay.arpa , Cc: richardt%oregon-state@csnet-relay.arpa >>To start with the third question: no, it is definitely not exactly >>like the trilogy. There are many disappointing differences, some >>of them silly (for example, they changed the name of one of the >>heros from Jean-Pierre to Jean-Paul, and his nickname from Jumper >>to Beanpole; the reason for that escapes me). > >I do not doubt that there are differences, but ... >I distinctly remember Beanpole. Oh oh; that will teach me not to post electronic messages late at night. :-) What actually happened was that I read these books a long time ago (about 10 years) and I read them twice; the first time I read a simplified-english version (which was required reading in high-school, and is still the only thing for which I feel grateful to my high-school), and it was THERE that they changed the name to Jean-pierre aka Jumper; when I later read the original version, I remember getting angry at the "simplifiers" for changing the name, but somehow the name Jumper was the one that stuck in my memory. Sorry; it won't happen again. Eyal Mozes BITNET: eyal@wisdom CSNET and ARPA: eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA UUCP: ..!ucbvax!eyal%wisdom.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 86 14:06:10 GMT From: sfsup!jeffj@caip.rutgers.edu (J.S.Jonas) Subject: Re: Japanese Animation: An Introduction for the Uninitiated > My wife and I were really amused to find that these are definitely > ADULT comic books (over an inch thick) and rather explicit too. > Needless to say the kids would have enjoyed it (they are > teenagers), but we didn't give them the chance. Congratulations! You have just disoverered the world of Japanese Manga (comic books). An excellent ENGLISH book on the subject is _Manga_Manga_The_World_Of_Japanese_Comics by Frederik L. Schodt (paperback, publisher=Kodansha International through Harper & Row (c) 1986 This book is very thorough, describing the evolution of the comic book from Picture Scrolls from the 12th century which featured "Walt-Disney - style anthropomorphized animals". Many cartoons later became animated and some made it here to the US, although the editing and fidelity to the original text varies from good to horrible. Let me elaborate: Robotech: rather good. Originally three series from the same studio, Macross, Southern Cross, and Genesis Climber Mospeada were combined by Harmony Gold because they acquired the rights to all three. At the Cartoon/Fantasy Organization meetings (worth looking into in you're into animation and/or Japanese stuff) the New York chapter has been showing the original Japanese version of Mospeada, so I can definitely say that the Robotech 'New Generation' is a good translation, and the Comico comic books are good too. They have little in common except that the same studio produced them, and they use giant Mecha (robots). Some dialogue editing put the Protoculture from Mospeada as a common tie to the Macross series. Battle of the Planets: horrible! This is the highly 'edited for American TV' first Gatchaman series. The original is my favorite series, which had 3 series in Japan. Details deserve a separate article, but to summarize, they deleted all the graphic violence (after all, G-force is a Ninja Team) and inserted 7-Zark-7, an R2D2 look-alike as a timefill and to explain the discontinuities created by the scenes that were cut. He put a sugar-coating on everything (i.e. "of course, all those Spectar agents evacuated the base before the bomb exploded" where the original showed them being blown up with the base.). 'Nuff said. Others are: (from "Manga Manga" page 155) Astro Boy (Osamu Tezuka's "Mighty Atom"), Kimba, the White Lion (Osamu Tezuka's Jungle Taitei or "Jungle Emperor") Gigantor (Mitsuteru Yokoyama's Tetsujin 28-go or "Iron Man No. 28") The Starvengers (Go Nagai's Getta Robotto) Star Blazers (Reiji Matsumoto's Uchu Senkan Yamato or "Space Cruser Yamato") Force Five (a package of Japanese warrior-robot animation, with characters by Go Nagai and Reiji Matsumoto) There are many sources of Japanese manga. I will post a separate article on that. Jeff Skot {ihnp4 | allegra | cbosgd} attunix ! jeffj ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 86 04:27:56 GMT From: suadb!lindberg@caip.rutgers.edu (Per Lindberg QZ) Subject: Re: tales of fen and filksong, and a survey The way I heard it, "filk song" was originally a misspelling (or rather, mistyping) of "folk song". (Look at your keyboard and you'll see why). It originated at some con, and the term stuck. Yes, I think it would be nice to have a "fan slang file", like the "hacker slang file" from the hacker communities at MIT, Stanford, CMU etc. Per Lindberg ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 86 15:04:40 GMT From: ucdavis!ccrdave@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: non-alcoholic PGGB I tried to directly mail this, but kept getting bounced. This is the virgin equivalent of a local favorite. It's the only one I've had, although those that imbibe tell me the other has quite a kick... Take the juice from one bottle of ol Janx Spirit (Aniset flavoring, available at your liquor store, in bottles, next to grenadine, etc. An inch and a half for a 16 ounce glass, or so.) The waters and the marsh gas can be regular carbonated water. Perrier, for example, or soda water. Use about two thirds of the glass, remembering that you must add three crushed Mega ice cubes. A mega-cube is about four or eight times the size as a regular cube. Add Qualactin Hypermint over the back of a silver spoon. (This ingredient varies according to your law level and your wallet. If you're a rich law breaker, use coke. If you're a poor, but honest party goer, crush to a fine powder one or two citrated, caffiene tablets and add them. Nodoz doesn't taste right. Go for the cheapest drug store citrated caffiene. Figure on around 100 miligrams of caffiene per drink.) Drop in the tooth of a Suntiger. (Lemon slice, generous.) Sprinkle Zamphour. (Blue coloring, probably sugar, PERHAPS touch salt. This will have to be to local taste.) Add olive. With the virgin version, the olive alone probably will supply all salt needed, especially if you use big ones. This is great stuff at a dance, where you want to get everybody jumping and going. Much better than booze. I'd get a bottle of everything and play with the ingredients, till you get it to your own tastes as far as sweetness, etc. If the group is young, I'd probably sweeten more. What's it for? Why no alcohol? When do I get paid? {dual,lll-crg,ucbvax}!ucdavis!vega!ccrdave ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Jun 86 0858-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #138 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 2 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 138 Today's Topics: Books - Calvino & Card (2 msgs) & Ellison (6 msgs) & Herd Aliens & Generation Ships, Films - Warriors of the Wind & James Bond, Miscellaneous - NASFIC & Jane Fonda (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 May 86 01:45:16 GMT From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Invisible Cities soren@reed.UUCP (Soren Petersen) writes: >On net.recomendation, I read Calvino's Invisible Cities. While I >quite enjoyed it, I am fairly sure I missed a fair amount (like, >say, the point). Could some of the net.literature.gurus explain >what is going on, what Calvino is trying to do, etc? Uff. I just took a course this semester in which the professor spent a couple of weeks talking about various aspects of what Calvino is trying to do in this book. But some useful things to keep in mind are: what do cities with the same chapter titles have to do with each other? Notice the order in which they are arranged and grouped. Is there a trend? Why are the cities invisible? Is each city complete? Finally, the most significant passage in the book (for me) was at the beginning of chapter 6; I use part of it here as a closing quote. "Every time I describe a city I am saying something about Venice." pH ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 86 04:18:20 GMT From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) Subject: Re: Review of Ender's Game and Speaker For The Dead I agree completely with your review of Ender's Game (and I have been searching for Speaker For The Dead), it was an excellent novel, especially when one realizes that that the short story version of Ender's Game was Card's first sale ever. I have to make one correction though. Ender was born from a breeding project for geniuses, not empaths. Ender's sister Valentine was rejected from the program because she was too empathic and would never lead a fleet into battle, and his brother Peter was rejected because he liked killing too much and might lead a fleet into unnecessary (and strategically inopportune) slaughter -- however, both were geniuses like Ender. Brian Yamauchi Carnegie-Mellon University Computer Science Department ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu BITNET: q110by04@cmccvc DECNET: by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 86 19:41:01 GMT From: 6105530@pucc.BITNET (Daniel Kimberg) Subject: Re: Review of Ender's Game and Speaker For The Dead I only picked up Ender's Game because I've enjoyed Card's short fiction for some time. Actually (no reasons right now) I didn't like Ender's Game very much, but I will pick up SFTD after that glowing recommendation. Anyone else out there more thrilled with his short stuff (St. Amy's Tale, Unaccompanied Sonata, etc.) than with these new books? Dan ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 86 18:23:49 GMT From: reed!ellen@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: A Phone Conversation with Harlan Ellison I've said it here before, and I think I'll say it again: I feel very strongly that authors, particularly prolific and hard-working authors, should not be disturbed in the privacy of their own home. That is what a convention guest of honor is for; that is what a con panelist expects. However, calling up famous people just to chat is an invasion of privacy. I am not flaming Stu for calling; I appreciate his good intentions. I'm flaming him for suggesting that we call Harlan if we have anything we want to say to him. Harlan doesn't answer his fan mail for precisely that reason: if he answered it all, he wouldn't have time to write. If fans called him day and night (and they would) he would get no peace at all. I've found Harlan to be quite congenial within the context of the several cons he and I have both attended. I wouldn't blame him one iota if he hung up on a fan that called him at home. Stu should not have printed that telephone number. Please, people, don't call Harlan. Ellen Eades ------------------------------ Date: Fri 30 May 86 20:25:41-EDT From: Laurence Brothers Subject: Harlan Ellison's Phone Number Was that a joke, or did you just give out the man's phone number, ***over the net***, even though your acquaintance with him seems to be two unsolicited phone calls? Even if his number is listed, that hardly seems to be a very well thought out action -- given his relative notoriety, if you were in his place, would you want your number distributed like that? I would suppose he has a private unlisted number, but even so.... Or did he invite you to ask all sf-lovers subscribers to give him a call? Laurence ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 86 17:57:00 GMT From: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu (Michaelntz) Subject: Re: A Phone Conversation with Harlan Ellison Stuart, posting the private telephone number of a famous writer strikes me as being about the most irresponsible thing I've yet read on the net. I mean, come on. mike krantz ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 86 20:50:07 GMT From: pyrla!cracraft@caip.rutgers.edu (Stuart Cracraft) Subject: Harlan Ellison's phone number Well, all I can say in response is that Harlan, perhaps more than any other modern author, writes about what he lives. His experiences and his life come fully into his work, more so his non-fiction than fiction. So your phone calls are fodder for his pen. He wouldn't post a public phone number, being a well-known author, unless he was fully prepared for the well-wishers, the cranks, the kooks, and the praise-givers who would inevitably call. Stuart Cracraft vortex!trwrb!pyrla!cracraft ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 86 21:34:24 GMT From: pyrla!cracraft@caip.rutgers.edu (Stuart Cracraft) Subject: Harlan's phone-number The considerable "bad-vibes" from this list about the posting of Harlan's phone number strikes me as very ironic. Harlan spends half of his life, seemingly, writing articles that encourage some group of people to direct their attention via phones, letters, or protests at some particular group, typically a company, but often an individual in a position of authority, to promote a "cause." Case-in-point: read essays in his latest - AN EDGE IN MY VOICE, a superb collection of his news articles. How does Harlan's posting of an address or phone number or name of a company to the thousands of his readers, encouraging them to take action and communicate with the target, differ in any way from my posting his phone number to this list? I don't think it does. Why do you allow Harlan the privilege of encouraging mass communication such as that mentioned above but deny it to another person? It seems hypocritical to say the least. Stuart Cracraft vortex!trwrb!pyrla!cracraft ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 86 20:34:05 GMT From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison's Phone Number Given that Harlan Ellison makes rather a point of mentioning that his phone is listed in Sherman Oaks (in print, see e.g. *An Edge in His Voice*), I'd say he isn't particularly worried about it. Besides, if enough people call him that he gets an unlisted number, maybe he'll stop kvetching about all the boobs who call him. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 86 04:51:31 GMT From: ellis@sage.cs.reading.Ac.Uk (Sean Ellis) Subject: Re: Herd Aliens > ...does anyone know of any other stories involving intelligent > herd societies ?... Although Larry Niven has not gone into this problem before in any great detail, I think that both the Pierson's Puppeteers ( from almost any of his "Known Space" series ) and the Fuxes ( "Flare Time", in "Limits" ) both count in this respect. However, as far as I know, there has been no large-scale warfare between humans and either of these races, though in the case of the puppeteers, their entire system was held to ransom by a human pirate known as Captain Kidd ("A Relic of Empire", in "Neutron Star" ). The solution to this was not violent, but economic, as the puppeteers are cowards. ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 86 00:16:38 GMT From: genat!phoenix@caip.rutgers.edu (phoenix) Subject: Re: Generation-ship stories? Along the lines of the generation ship story-line you are after, I would recommend Robert A. Heinlein's "Orphans of the Sky". Be aware, as well, of the tv series (Canadian) "The Star Lost" which was based on this idea as well. ------------------------------ Date: 30-May-1986 1212 From: wood%genral.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Celeste DTN522-2590) Subject: Where can I find Warriors of the Wind Video? I have seen several references to a video of Warriors_of_the_Wind. All the references have recommended the video so I have attempted to find it. It is NOT at my neighborhood video store. It is not even on the list of available videos from the local chain "Sound Warehouse". Can anyone reccomend a video chain that has this video in their catalog and available for ordering or viewing? I live in Colorado so Boston, LA, or New York stores probably won't help. Celeste Wood UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-nermal!wood ARPA: wood%nermal.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 86 06:22:42 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com Subject: re: Findlay Light versus Pierce Brosnan > From: mit-eddie!nathan (Nathan Glasser) > For some time now there have been postings definitively stating > that Findlay Light (sp?) was to be the new James Bond in "The > Living Daylights." Nobody ever seemed to give a source for this > information. However, the following article is from today's > (5/18/86) Boston Globe, reprinted without permission. > > [quoted article mentions Brosnan being chosen for Bond] Well, it's sort of like this. While Brosnan was the favored choice, there was the question of whether he'd be free from REMINGTON STEELE in order to play Bond. According to an article I quoted from the Boston Herald-American a few weeks back, Findlay Light was the front runner in the Bond race (since Brosnan's availibility was in question). Shortly after this, Bond producer Cubby Broccoli announced Light as being signed to play Bond. Shortly after *this*, NBC announced that they weren't renewing STEELE. Shortly after *that*, Broccoli announces that Brosnan will play Bond. This is not the first time that Broccoli has changed his mind after making such an announcement. I had forgotten until a co-worker had reminded me recently that John Gavin had been announced as being the new Bond for DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER, only to be pre-empted in the role when Connery decided to return to it for that film. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ****Note *new* new UUCP address**** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 86 15:28:40 CDT From: Rich Zellich Subject: NASFiC: "Does Europe have a..." Dan'l Danehy-Oakes says/asks: >As to NASFIC, it is a convention held in North America to console >those who can't afford to go to WorldCon when it's held on another >continent. (Does Europe have any similar cons when it's here, or >in Australia?) Besides various national conventions (including one in Australia), there is an annual European con, bid on by sites in different countries similarly to the Worldcon; it is called Eurocon, and is in Zagreb, Yugoslavia this year...see public file CONS.TXT on ARPANet host SRI-NIC for details of this and other cons worldwide (warning, this file is ~55,000 characters). One of the proposals involving changes to Worldcon site-selection/rotation rules is to drop the NASFiC from the WSFS constitution, and replace it with a totally separate charter for a "national" convention (I put national in quotes, because the NASFiC covers all of North America, including Mexico and Canada (Canada also has it's own annual national con, just held in Vancouver)). Cheers, Rich Zellich St. Louis in '88 Worldcon Bid Committee ------------------------------ Date: Fri 30 May 86 14:10:40-PDT From: James McGrath Subject: Re: L. Neil Smith vs. Jane Fonda To: inuxm!arlan@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU In general I agree with everything you said about good old Jane Fonda. However, I disagree with the following for two reasons: arlan andrews, Analog irregular; libertarian; one who would not watch a Jane Fonda movie other than one of her funeral. First, I have always tried to treat purely commercial transactions (such as seeing a movie) in a non-political manner. Fonda is a good actress - I have enjoyed many of her performances. It is precisely on those occasions when she is NOT acting that I find her to be grossly unqualified to intelligently comment on the state of the world. Second, I think you would enjoy watching Barbarosa (sp?), a fantasy/science fiction movie she starred in during her "sex kitten" phase (it begins with Jane stripping down to the buff). I hear that she now would like to buy all the prints and burn them, but luckily "art" is not that easy to suppress. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 86 11:22:44 GMT From: hull@glory.dec.com Subject: Jane Fonda's titillating early career >From: James McGrath >Second, I think you would enjoy watching Barbarosa (sp?), a >fantasy/science fiction movie she starred in during her "sex >kitten" phase (it begins with Jane stripping down to the buff). Just to set the record straight, the above-mentioned movie was titled "Barbarella", and was indeed as much fun to watch then as her workout tape is nowadays. Barbarosa was the infamous pirate "Red Beard". Al ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 86 20:23:06 GMT From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: L. Neil Smith vs. Jane Fonda >From: James McGrath >In general I agree with everything you said about good old Jane >Fonda. However, I disagree with the following for two reasons: > > arlan andrews, Analog irregular; libertarian; one who would not > watch a Jane Fonda movie other than one of her funeral. > >First, I have always tried to treat purely commercial transactions >(such as seeing a movie) in a non-political manner. The question of whether or not one should let political beliefs alter commercial transactions is a personal one, and I don't want to suggest what I think *you* should do -- but it's pretty clear that Jane Fonda uses her personal income as a movie actress to finance her political activities. So it is certainly reasonable that someone who is strongly against her political activities wouldn't want to watch (and pay for) one of her movies, for fear that they would be contributing to the political activities indirectly. I can certainly understand the original poster's messages, since I had friends getting shot up in Viet Nam at about the same time Jane Fonda was making propaganda films for the NVA. *I* wanted the Gvt to try her for treason at the time, although I've moderated those views slightly now.... It's not easy to be as fanatical as I am about Free Speech sometimes. >Second, I think you would enjoy watching Barbarosa (sp?), a Barabarella... Barabrosa was someone entirely different. >fantasy/science fiction movie she starred in during her "sex >kitten" phase (it begins with Jane stripping down to the buff). I >hear that she now would like to buy all the prints and burn them, >but luckily "art" is not that easy to suppress. I still wonder occasionally why it is that stripping in Barbarella was Politically Incorrect, but bouncing around in revealing tights in an exercise tape is Politically Correct. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Jun 86 0912-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #139 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 4 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 139 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (2 msgs) & Vance & Yulsman & Codex Atlanticus, Films - Sequels & Buckaroo Banzai (2 msgs) & Star Trek IV & Short Circuit, Miscellaneous - New Filksong & Barbarosa ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Jun 86 04:59:12 GMT From: ihlpg!tainter@caip.rutgers.edu (Tainter) Subject: Re: What is the "Gulf"? > I've read quite a bit of Heinlein, including Friday, The Moon is a > Harsh Mistress, and The Rolling Stones, but I've never heard of > the "Gulf". Could somebody please elaborate? Is this a novel, > short story, series, or what? _Gulf_ is a short story in a collection called _Assignment in Eternity_. Also in there are _Elsewhen_, _Lost Legacy_, _Jerry was a Man_. Good, quick reads. j.a.tainter ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 86 15:31:40 GMT From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven Jones) Subject: Yet Another RAH multiverses Quick glossary: RAH=Robert A. Heinlein TMiaHM=The Moon is a Harsh Mistress TRS=The Rolling Stones TCWWTW=The Cat Who Walks Through Walls Gulf="Gulf" a story in the collection Assignment in Eternity Friday=the novel of the same name From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) > It has been argued that TMIaHM and Stones are in the same > universe; as far as I've seen, this claim rests solely on the > duplication of a redhead named Hazel Meade Stone. Since the HMS of > Stones claims to have been a colonist while the one in TMIaHM was > a creche orphan this is unlikely. In TCWWTW, Hazel explains that she is both the orphan adopted by the Davis family in TMiaHM and that she is the mother of Roger Stone in TRS. > But there isn't even this tenuous connection between the two > latter mentioned and the FRIDAY universe. Note the first line of > FRIDAY: > "As I left the Kenya Beanstalk capsule, he was right on my > heels". (*) Beanstalk or Kalidasa's Tower or whatever the original > name for this was, it's much too big to have vanished from > TMIaHM---after all, if you're shipping out prisoners you'll use > the cheapest method, and once you've built such a tower it's going > to be a lot cheaper than reaction drives. Again, in TCWWTW, the two are tied together retroactively: Friday takes place, oh, I'd say some 150 years after the Lunar Revolution. This is reasonable, because humans had only colonized as far as the Asteroids in TMiaHM, but had some dozen-odd colonies at nearby stars in Friday. > Or consider that in GULF the moon is a resort, with no indication > of farms, ex-prisoners, or political independence. What can I say? You're right, but to quote Lapus Lazuli and Lorelei Lee Long, "He isn't lying--" "He's a creative artist--" "Speaking in parables--" "And he emancipated those Jabberwockies--" "Who were cruelly oppressed." A mystery or western writer can write stories using the same characters and setting over a span of fifty years. A Science Fiction writer cannot. Scientific discoveries have been marching along without the slightest regard for authors who put swamps on Venus or canals on Mars. RAH does a commendable job of tying his stuff together, but even the Gay Deceiver Whatsit (please! the official name is the Burrough's Continua Craft!) can't smooth all the edges without multiplying entities unnecessarily. S. Luke Jones ...ihnp4!mtung!slj ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 86 09:37:03 cet From: ESG7%DFVLROP1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Commentary and rating about Jack Vance Jack Vance the Marvellous Master of Science Fiction by Gary A. Allen, Jr. The following table is a list of all of the writings in book form by Jack Vance. Included is my own rating for each book. Jack Vance has been in the science fiction business for some time. He is widely regarded as being in the top twenty of the world's best SF authors. In the Netherlands, where Jack Vance has had the good fortune of being well translated, he is the most popular science fiction author. Vastly inferior authors have received far more acclaim than Jack Vance. This is partially due to Vance himself. He is an intensely private man and does not involve himself in much of the self promoting ballyhoo that many of his science fiction colleagues have engaged in. Those who have never read Vance and have no qualms about reading a piece of pseudo-fantasy, should read _Rhialto_the_Marvellous , which is his best book. In terms of straight science fiction his novel, _The _Dirdir is the best. However _The_Dirdir is a component of the _Tschai_Series and should only be read in sequence with the other novels of the series. His best nonfantasy work which is not a component of a series is _The_Last_Castle . The most widely currently available novels by Vance are of the _Lyonesse_Series . These novels are NOT recommended. Jack Vance is a full-time professional author. The _Lyonesse_Series represents an unfortunate attempt at trying to cash-in on the current fad with "swords and sorcery" fantasy. Jack is extremely good at writing novels such as _The_Dying_Earth_Series , or the _Tschai_Series . Commercial authors like Vance will continue to write things like _Lyonesse if people buy them, so if you must read this sort of stuff please read a used copy or a library copy. A good book about Vance is: _Jack_Vance by Tim Underwood and Chuck Miller, Taplinger Publishing Co. 1980. I would also be interested in establishing a dialog with other Vance fans on acquiring first edition hard bound books by Jack Vance. _TITLE _DATE_PUBLISHED _RATING (0-10, 10 = best) (* = Not rated) The Five Gold Bands 1953 3 The Languages of Pao 1957 8 Slaves of the Klau 1958 * The Dragon Masters 1963 9 Future Tense 1964 * The Houses of Iszim 1964 8 Son of the Tree 1964 7 Monsters in Orbit 1965 * Space Opera 1965 5 The Blue World 1966 9 The Brains of Earth 1966 * The Complete Magnus Ridolph 1966 4 Eight Fantasms and Magics 1969 * Emphyrio 1970 9 Vandals of the Void 1970 * The Gray Prince 1974 5 Galactic Effectuator 1976 6 Green Magic 1979 * The Last Castle 1980 10 Big Planet Series Big Planet 1952 * Show Boat World 1975 9 The Alastor Series Trullion: Alastor 2262 1973 8 Marune: Alastor 933 1975 7 Wyst: Alastor 1716 1978 6 The Durdane Trilogy The Faceless Man (The Anome) 1973 9 The Brave Free Men 1973 7 The Asutra 1974 7 The Demon Prince Series Star King 1964 8 The Killing Machine 1964 8 The Palace of Love 1967 6 The Face 1979 8 The Book of Dreams 1981 7 The Tschai (Planet of Adventure) Series City of the Chasch 1968 9 Servants of the Wankh 1969 8 The Dirdir 1969 10 The Pnume 1970 9 The Dying Earth Series The Dying Earth 1950 9 The Eyes of the Overworld 1966 10 Cugel's Saga 1983 9 Rhialto the Marvellous 1984 10 The Lyonesse Series Lyonesse I: Suldren's Garden 1983 0 Lyonesse II: The Green Pearl 1985 * On the rating system used a 6 or better is recommended. Works with a 10 either received a Hugo/Nebula or should have. ALL of Jack Vance's works including _Lyonesse_ are better than 99.9% of what one would typically find for sale as Science Fiction. Prizes Won by Jack Vance 1958 nominated for the Hugo _The_Miracle-Workers 1962 BEST NOVELLA Hugo _The_Dragon_Masters 1966 BEST NOVELLA Hugo _The_Last_Castle 1973 nominated for the Nebula _Rumfuddle 1974 nominated for the Hugo _Assault_on_a_City 1985 nominated for the Nebula _Rhialto_the_Marvellous ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 86 12:05:40 EDT From: KERN@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: An Alternate History book we missed. I've just finished reading a book called ELLEANDER MORNING, by Jerry Yulsman. It was published as a mainstream or lit-fic book, but has everything we Alternate History junkies like. I'm surprised I haven't heard more about it from the sf community. It starts out with a woman shooting a young, antisemitic painter in 1913 Vienna. I won't take the plot any further; if you like Alternate History as much as I do, you'll enjoy it immensely. I found this book in the remainder catalog from Edward R. Hamilton Bookseller, Falls Village, Connecticut. They also had the CODEX SERIPHINIANUS listed in their most recent catalog. Kevin B Kern ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 86 13:53:52 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Codices For all those poeple who tried to find Codex Seraphianus (sp) in BOOKS IN PRINT---did you happen to notice the list price for Codex Atlanticus? If not, take another look. Garrett Fitzgerald ST801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 86 22:39:18 GMT From: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Movie sequels From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson > At the end of the movie "The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai", >they mentioned a sequel called "Buckaroo Banzai Against the World >Crime League". Similarly, the movie "Sword and the Sorcerer" >promised a sequel called "Tales of the Ancient Empire". Does anyone >know if either of these sequels will ever be filmed? "Tales of the Ancient Empire" was only a treatment. I read it a few years ago, and it was not much of a story. But then again, neither was the treatment for "Sword and the Sorcerer". The second Buckaroo Banzai movie has a completed script, and Peter Weller was under contract to play Buckaroo again, but production never began. And nobody has ever said why. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 86 9:20:35 CDT From: Rich Zellich To: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA Subject: Re: Movie sequels The ladies who run the Buckaroo Banzai/Blue Blaze Irregulars fan club have been trying to drum up support for making the sequel, apparently to no avail. The rights have recently reverted to the independent production company that made the movie, and they apparently have no plans, current or otherwise, to do the sequel. If people are interested in writing them to urge consideration/ making of the sequel, I can look up the fan club and production company addresses. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 86 08:24 PDT From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: A call to the BBIs... All Blue Blaze Irregulars planning on attending the 20th Anniversary Star Trek convention on June 22 at the Disneyland Hotel in Anaheim, CA who wish to get together while there, please contact me before then. Anybody know where we can find Buckaroo? Also, the latest word is that there will be no Buckaroo Banzai Against the World Crime League. Not enough "normal" people went to see the first flick :-) Jon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Jun 86 10:00:51 PDT From: RSmith.pa@Xerox.COM Subject: ST IV rumor Heard an odd rumor - that a large ship whose home is Alameda CA (SF Bay) has been hired for use in the making of ST IV. My understanding is that this ship is large enough to have helicopters land and take off. The source is someone who knows a crew member. What can this be for? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 86 09:03 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Short Circuit Cute robots are still the in thing in movies, and Short Circuit takes the theme about as far as it can go. If you're the type that can accept one silly idea, suspend your disbelief, and enjoy a movie when everything else extends logically from that idea, you could get into this movie. That idea is: that a bolt of lightning can change a robot into a thinking, feeling person. Now, I'm with the Programmer Hero who states repeatedly (and his coworkers chime in) that robots can't be happy or sad, they just run programs. But he gets convinced when the robot can see birds and butterflies in an ink (actually, tomato soup) blot and laughs at his jokes, and sums the results up with "I understand now! Spontaneous Emotional Response!" Yes, good old SER, we see it all the time. But, the movie has it's funny moments, as the Girl meets the robot, assumes it's ET, and tried to teach it about Earth. As the Indian programmer mangles English with lines like "If we don't find that robot, we'll all be out punching the sidewalk." But my favorite line was when the Security folks start shooting it up and our Programmer Hero holds up his badge and says, "Wait! No! I've got Clearance!" Strange, I was the only one in the theater to laugh at that. I couldn't handle the premise of this movie, but if you think you can, go see it and you'll have a few laughs. Especially if you, too, have worked in aerospace or DoD stuff and can recogize some of the "in" jokes that seem to be thrown about. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 86 22:24:24 GMT From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu (A Andrews) Subject: New Filk Fen: Here's a filksong I've composed while driving to work the last few days or so. Feel free to use it, even though I'm (c) the lyrics; I'd love to hear it sung, so if you want to sing it, I'll be at Inconjunction, Rivercon, Confederation, Contact, DeepSouthCon, and maybe some others. Just give credit for the words, even though the tune is stolen: [Tune: "The Last Farewell," as sung by Roger Whittaker] Lyrics (c) 1986, by Arlan Andrews The Mars Farewell There's a ship stands rigged and ready at the spaceport And tomorrow to old Mother Earth she flies Far away from your world of red-rust deserts To my world of green hills and blue skies. And I shall be aboard that ship tomorrow Though my heart be sad at this, our last farewell Your Mars is beautiful But I have loved Earth dearly More dearly than the human heart can tell. I've heard there's a wicked war a-raging And the tast of war I know so very well I can see the red-starred battle station Their lasers flash as we fly into Hell. I have no fear of death, it brings so sorrow But how bittersweet is this, our last farewell Your Mars is beautiful But I have loved Earth dearly More dearly than the human heart can tell. I have walked so many miles of Martian desert I have climbed the god-like peak, Olympus Mons I have tramped down in the Valles Marineris And studied Solis Lacus' ancient ruin And if I live once more to land on Earthside I'll recall this ruddy orb I've known so well For Mars is beautiful But I have loved Earth dearly More dearly than the human heart can tell. (Repeat last two lines...) Typos are inevitable, I suppose. How about someone who can play and sing, doing just that? Thanx, arlan ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 86 06:58 CDT From: MSgt Robert L. Stevenson Subject: re: Barbarosa Barbarosa "Red Beard" is/was a Germanic King Frederick Barbarosa, not a pirate. Legend states that he and his knights sleep in a mountain cavern waiting to wake and defend Germany in time of need. Steve ARPA: DOET@AFCC-3 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Jun 86 0833-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #140 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 5 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 140 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein & Vance (2 msgs) & Wrede, Films - Buckaroo Banzai & Hidden Fortress & Barbarella, Television - Star Trek (3 msgs) & Doctor Who, Miscellaneous - Southern California Conventions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Jun 86 21:24:21 EDT From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: Heinlein's _Gulf_ To: yamauchi@MAPS.CS.CMU.EDU From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) >I've read quite a bit of Heinlein, including Friday, The Moon is a >Harsh Mistress, and The Rolling Stones, but I've never heard of the >"Gulf". > >Could somebody please elaborate? Is this a novel, short story, >series, or what? _Gulf_ is a short story, written in 1949. It appears in _Assignment in Eternity_ which is currently not in print but can be found at better cons everywhere. _Gulf_ introduces Kettle Belly Baldwin, who also appears in _Friday_. Also in _Assignment in Eternity_ is _Elsewhen_ , _Lost Legacy_, and _Jerry was a Man_. Keith ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 86 16:24:41 GMT From: grady@cad.BERKELEY.EDU (Steven Grady) Subject: Re: Commentary and rating about Jack Vance Just wanted to thank you for that posting. I've been an off-and-on fan of Jack Vance for a few years (mostly off because his books are hard to find) but I just read the Demon Princes series a couple months ago (and due to my recommendations, a few friends are struggling to find copies of these books themselves), and I finished _The_Gray_Prince_ yesterday. I had been planning to post about Vance myself, but you did a far better and more comprehensive job then I could have. Also note he's written short stories -- one of the books on my stack of need-to-be-read is _The_Worlds_Of_Jack_ Vance_, a collection of 9 stories. As an aside, does anyone in the Bay Area (preferably East Bay) know where I can find a copy of _The_Dirdir_ (or the rest of the Tschai series)? I've been looking for that since I saw it mentioned in _Barlowe's_Guide_To_ Extraterrestrial_ a few years ago, but haven't found it in any of the bookstores I've checked out.. Steven Grady grady@ingres.Berkeley.EDU ...!ucbvax!grady ------------------------------ From: marco@andromeda.RUTGERS.EDU (the wharf rat) Subject: Re: Commentary and rating about Jack Vance Date: 3 Jun 86 22:25:10 GMT From: ESG7%DFVLROP1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU > The most widely currently available novels by Vance are of the > _Lyonesse_Series . These novels are NOT recommended. Jack Vance > is a full-time professional author. The _Lyonesse_Series > represents an unfortunate attempt at trying to cash-in on the > current fad with "swords and sorcery" fantasy. Jack is extremely > good at writing novels such as _The_Dying_Earth_Series , or the > _Tschai_Series . Commercial authors like Vance will continue to > write things like _Lyonesse if people buy them, so if you must > read this sort of stuff please read a used copy or a library copy. The "Lyonesse" books are excellent examples of fantasy-sf. The fact that Vance is a professional author merely accounts for the excellence of the work. *I* recommend Lyonesse to anyone who likes fantasy. By the way, since you object to professional authors writing "things like Lyonesse", why do you like the "Dying Earth" stuff? It's mostly about magic, too: "The Excellent Prismatic Spray", "Phandall's Gyrator", and wasn't Rhialto the Marvelous a *magician* ? ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 86 14:37:23 GMT From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: THE SEVEN TOWERS by Patricia C. Wrede (mild spoiler) The jacket reads: "Eltiron, Prince of Sevairn: caught in the web of his father's intrigues. Crystalorn, Princess of Barinash: promised in marriage to a prince she's never seen. Ranlyn, the desert rider: forced to choose between friendship and honor. Jermain, the outlaw: exiled from court for the crime of telling the truth. Vandaris, the soldier: who left the life of luxury to wield a sword and lead an army. Carachel, the Wizard-King: who does not understand the awesome power he commands. and Amberglas, the sorceress: who may not be quite as fuddleheaded as she seems... Seven players in a game of deadly magic. Seven Kingdoms at the edge of destruction. Seven Towers holding a dark and dreadful secret." This is a fantasy book; the part of the world in which the story takes place consists of moderate-sized kingdoms with renaissance- like technologies, though only a few of the seven kingdoms play a direct role in this book. In some kingdoms, magic is common, though few people actually have the talent to practice it. The principal characters are very accurately described by the jacket, though Ranlyn doesn't directly appear until rather late in the book. One of the author's strong points is the ability to portray a number of interesting people without confusing the reader as to who is who. I enjoyed the book for a number of reasons. First, the dialogue is frequently fun to read, especially when Amberglas takes part. Second, I couldn't predict what would happen. Third, some of the characters weren't clear cut, and it seems to me more realistic when the characters aren't just black or white. Finally, there was a theme throughout, built a little bit at a time, and the climax put all the pieces together in a nice fashion. I give the book 3.0 stars out of 4.0 (pretty good). Duane Morse ...!noao!{mot|terak}!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 86 18:45:55 GMT From: unirot!halloran@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Halloran) Subject: Re: Movie sequels From: Rich Zellich >The ladies who run the Buckaroo Banzai/Blue Blaze Irregulars fan >club have been trying to drum up support for making the sequel, >apparently to no avail. The rights have recently reverted to the >independent production company that made the movie, and they >apparently have no plans, current or otherwise, to do the sequel. >If people are interested in writing them to urge >consideration/making of the sequel, I can look up the fan club and >production company addresses. Fan Club: Banzai Institute c/o 20th Century Fox P O Box 900 Beverly Hills CA 90213 Production Co: Gladden Entertainment (formerly Sherwood Productions) 9454 Wilshire Blvd #309 Beverly Hills CA 90212 T-shirts, caps, etc. from: Team Banzai P O Box 19413 Denver CO 80219 Bob Halloran, Consultant UUCP: topaz!caip!unirot!halloran DDD: (201)251-7514 USPS: 19 Culver Ct, Old Bridge NJ 08857 ATTmail: RHALLORAN ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 86 13:00:42 GMT From: mcnc!jeff@caip.rutgers.edu (Jeffrey Copeland) Subject: Re: Star Wars leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes: >HIDDEN FORTRESS is out on cassette and I have been meaning to write >a review of it. It actually is not that close to STAR WARS. It is >mostly about the attempts to return a willful princess and her gold >to her own country (from enemy territory). I don't think she is >ever really captured by the enemy. The main characters are two >humorous soldiers, a powerful stranger who protects the princess, >and the princess, herself. Well, not to say that any movie with two humorous peasants, a powerful stranger and a princess is STAR WARS, but certainly all the plot elements are there. You were expecting maybe a scene-for-scene comparison like SEVEN SAMURAI and MAGNIFICENT SEVEN? (I don't know whether it's come up in this discussion, but Lucas admits to STAR WARS being influenced by HIDDEN FORTRESS. In particular, R2D2 and C3PO are directly borrowed from the two humorous peasants.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed 4 Jun 86 10:21:41-PDT From: Lynn Gold Subject: Barbarella and Jane Fonda I heard that when asked about it in an interview, she replied, "I thought it was a cute movie" much to the surprise of the reporters in the room. Lynn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 86 14:47:19 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: STAR TREK/Wars Last night, when I was watching "Newhart", I caught a doubly-swiped line. I was just considering asking you readers for the line and the situation in Star Trek, but I will instead quote the line: "I felt a disturbance in the Force." Now, who knows what episode of Star Trek Lucas swiped that from? Not exactly swiped, but close enough so that I'm embarrassed that I didn't catch it before. Garrett Fitzgerald st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 3 June 1986 15:05:03 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson) Subject: Star Trek Can anyone tell me the name and plot of the last original "Star Trek" episode aired before it was cancelled? And when will "Star Trek IV" be released (if indeed there *is* another ST movie in the works)? Carlo Samson U09862 @ uicvm ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 86 23:42:39 GMT From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone) Subject: Re: Star Trek Turnabout Intruder was the last "original" ST episode aired. There were, of course, the cartoons in the early 70's. ST IV will be released in Dec 86. Sarge ------------------------------ Date: 4 June 1986 09:48:42 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson) Subject: Future Who > But in the case of the Doctor, an even more interesting > possibility presents itself: The Master could be a future > regeneration of the doctor! Bosh and bullsnoods, I say! We all know that the Master's goal in life (besides domination of the universe, of course) is the destruction of the Doctor. So if the Master is indeed a future Doctor, he would be trying to kill himself. And if he succeeded, then how could his future self exist to kill his past self? Quite a paradox there. Another question: How in quantum blazes did the Master survive being fried to a crisp in the numismaton gas on Sarn? Carlo Samson U09862 @ uicvm ------------------------------ Date: Wed 4 Jun 86 06:52:32-PDT From: Rich Zellich Subject: Re: Southern California Conventions Cc: pyrla!cracraft@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU Here is the list Stuart Cracraft requested. Note that this is a straight extract from the Geographic Cross-Reference and detail listing sections of the SF cons list publicly accessible on host SRI-NIC as file CONS.TXT - the file is currently a bit over 60,000 characters (around 25 printed pages). Enjoy, Rich Zellich St. Louis in '88 Worldcon Bid Committee California, Southern: June 21-22, 1986 - Anaheim June 26-29, 1986 - San Diego July 3-6, 1986 - San Diego July 11-12, 1986 - Burbank July 11-13, 1986 - Manhattan Beach August 8-11, 1986 - Long Beach August 9-10, 1986 - Los Angeles November 1-2, 1986 - Anaheim November 28-30, 1986 - Los Angeles June 21-22, 1986 (California, Southern) CREATION/STARLOG SALUTE TO 20 YEARS OF STAR TREK. Disneyland Hotel, Anaheim, CA. With Leonard Nimoy, DeForest Kelley, Gene & Majel Roddenberry, Walter Koenig, Nichelle Nichols, Grace Lee Whitney, and hosted by comedian Rick Overton. World premiere of scenes from Star Trek IV. Dealer tbls: $200 each; each table incl. 2 full memb's for use by legitimate helpers only. Info: SASE to Creation, 249-04 Hillside Ave., Bellerose, NY 11426; (718) 343-0202. June 26-29, 1986 (California,Southern) SCIENCE FICTION RESEARCH ASOCIATION 1986 ANNUAL MEETING. San Diego State, San Diego, CA. Memb: $40 to 3 Feb 86, $50 to 12 May 86, $65 at the door. Info: Larry McCaffrey, 3133 N. Gregory St., San Diego, CA 92104. July 3-6, 1986 (California, Southern) HALLEYCON/WESTERCON 39. Town and Country Hotel, San Diego, CA. GoH: David Brin; FGoH: Karen Turner; TM: Greg Bear. 5 Track Programming: The Worlds of Fandom (Art, Zines, Special-Interest Groups); The Land of Hard Science (NASA, JPL, L-5, The R.H. Fleet Space Theatre); The Lands of Horror and Fantasy; The Usual Outstanding Film and Video Programming; The UNEXPECTED event...yes, even planned for this...anything can go here! And the usual gamut of events: masquerade, trivia bowl, Readings, Promotions, Local Clubs, Helpful classes, Useful Hints, and Worthwile Information. Memb: Supporting $10; Attending $15 thru 31 Dec 84, $20 thru 30 Jun 85, $25 thru 31 Oct 85, $30 thru 27 Feb 86, $35 thru 31 May 86, then higher at the door; supporters can convert to attending for $10 less than the attending rate at the time of conversion; $5 for kids in tow.Dealer Tbls: Sold out as of November 15, 1985, and there is a waiting list. Art Show: $5 per panel (you can hang as many or as few pieces as you wish), 10% commission on sales; display cases will be available on an as-needed basis, but please write as soon as possible. Info: Westercon 39, P.O. Box 81285, San Diego, CA 92138. July 11-12, 1986 (California, Southern) SUNBURST II. Burbank Airport Hilton, Burbank, CA. GoH: Judson Scott; other guests TBA. Info: Sunburst Con II, Joyce Bakken, P.O. Box 5151, Glendale, CA 91201. July 11-13 1986 (California, Southern) SHADOWCON X (**moved from 20-22 Jun 86, Hyatt at LAX, LA**). Radisson Hotel, Manhattan Beach, CA ($55 sngl, $60 dbl, $15/extra adult; free shuttle service to LAX). Guests: Frank Ashmore, Greta Blackburn, Mickey Jones, Andrew Prine, Sam Rolfe, Norman Felton. Featuring V The Celebration. Art show, dealers room, films, video; all proceeds from special con programing go to a local shelter for abused children. Memb: $15 & 3 SASEs until 31 Dec 85, $20 & 2 SASEs until 15 Jun 86, $25 at the door; $15 1-day, $5 1-day dealer's room only. Info: SASE to ShadowCon X, 8601A W. Cermak Rd., North Riverside, IL 60546; checks payable to Barbara Fister-Liltz. August 8-11, 1986 (California, Southern) MYTHCON 17. California State University, Long Beach, CA (rooms $100+/$200?, 3 nights, incl. 9 meals). Annual Mythopoeic Conference; commemorating the Charles Williams' centennial. General emphasis on high fantasy (J.R.R> Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, Charles Williams). Theme; The Daughters of Beatrice; Women in Fantasy. Papers, panels, films, art show, auction, drama, music, masquerade, dealers' room, banquet. Memb: $20 to 15 May 86, $25 to 25 Jul 86, higher at the door. Info: Mythcon 17, c/o Prof. Peter Lowentrout, 619 MacIntosh Bldg., Cal State U., Long Beach, CA 90840. August 9-10, 1986 (California, Southern) CREATION. Los Angeles, CA. Tentative booking; each table incl. 2 full memb's for use by legitimate helpers only. Info: SASE to Creation, 249-04 Hillside Ave., Bellerose, NY 11426; (718) 343-0202. November 1-2, 1986 (California, Southern) CREATION. Anaheim Sheraton Hotel, Anaheim, CA. Creation comics, Star Trek, Robotech, etc. Dealer tbls: $135; each table incl. 2 full memb's for use by legitimate helpers only. Info: SASE to Creation, 249-04 Hillside Ave., Bellerose, NY 11426; (718) 343-0202. November 28-30, 1986 (California, Southern) LOSCON THE 13TH. Los Angeles, CA. GoH: John Brunner; FGoHs: Bruce & Elayne Pelz. Memb: $15 thru 6 Jul 86 (Westercon 39), $17.50 thru 31 Oct 86, then $20 at the door. Info: Los Angeles Science Fantasy Society, Inc., 11513 Burbank Blvd., North Hollywood, CA 91601; (818) 760-9234. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Jun 86 0854-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #141 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 5 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 141 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Brooks & Card & Ford (2 msgs) & Vance & Zahn, Films - Buckaroo Banzai, Television - Doctor Who (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - Filksongs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Jun 86 15:23:08 GMT From: cbosgd!rtm@caip.rutgers.edu (Randy Murray) Subject: Embarrassment It seems that instead of perpetuating a rumor I'm perpetuating an April fool's joke. I can remember now the article and even remember laughing it off at the time, but somewhere deep in the faulty memory I must have added the possibility of a fifth _Hitchhiker's_ to my wish list. I agree that _So Long and Thanks for all the Fish_ (Although a great title) was not a great _Hitchhiker's_ book. It did, however, indicate that Douglas Adams might turn out to be an interesting author. I'd still appreciate any information on new books by Adams. Thanks Randy Murray cbosgd!rtm ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 86 19:25:23 GMT From: houligan!bseymour@caip.rutgers.edu (Burch Seymour) Subject: Book Publication Date Wanted?? Does anyone know when (or even if) the third Terry Brooks book _Wishsong_of_Shannara_ (I think it is) will be published in regular (read cheap) paperback format. Also the same question for the last two of Robert Asprin's Myth books. Some of us don't like to shell out 9 bucks for a paperback, even if it is a bit larger. Thanks. Burch Seymour -Gould C.S.D. at ....mcnc!rti-sel!gould!bseymour ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 86 15:31:57 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: ENDER'S GAME by Orson Scott Card ENDER'S GAME by Orson Scott Card Tor, 1986 A book review by Mark R. Leeper A while back I got justifiably flamed on the Net. I complained about titles and I used as an example a book I hadn't read, ENDER'S GAME. I said that the title implied that the book had something to do with endgame strategy and that it was, in fact, a cheat. The book was instead about someone named Ender. It's true, I should not have said that until I read the book. I have now. A bunch of people who apparently like Orson Scott Card and who don't know what an endgame strategy is were at least right that I should have paid my dues and read the book before making my complaint. My statement was just a lucky guess. ENDER'S GAME is about the training of Ender from age five to twelve, teaching him to be a great military genius. The idea is to combine the kid with the best raw material with the best military training and end up with not just the world's best 12-year-old military commander, but with a commander who cannot lose, period. And that is Card's chief failure-- Ender's abilities are just too unbelievable for his age. Even assuming that Ender has the best training possible and that the world has a much expanded population to choose from, it is still extremely unlikely that there would be someone as young as Ender with his abilities. Ender is never convincing as a person of his supposed age. In addition to this, though I have never seen an analysis, it seems that there are theoretical limits to how good a military commander can possibly be. Of course, superior force is a big advantage, but the commander who wields it is considered to be powerful, not good. The good commander is one who can be counted on to win a higher proportion of the time than would be expected from the size of his forces. The thing is that an army is a sufficiently complex organism that it cannot be perfectly predicted what it will do. This is what is wrong with ENDER'S GAME and Gordon Dickson's "Dorsai" novels like TACTICS OF MISTAKE. A good strategy will help a lot, and some commanders might have runs of good luck and win many battles, but eventually the law of large numbers takes over. A Dorsai can figure out in advance exactly what his enemy will do, but that is only because Dickson is contriving the situation so that the enemy has only one course of action to take. In real life, commanders use whims and hunches and weigh alternatives in ways Dorsai or Ender could not psyche out. And armies are not totally obedient monolithic organisms. One can postulate that Card's insect-like Buggers will follow the commands of their queen, but Ender is victorious over humans in battle and humans are not totally predictable. ENDER'S GAME is a good novel, though the reader becomes impatient for something besides training to happen, then it concludes itself very quickly. Saying more than that about the structure of the novel would be giving spoiler clues as to how the novel turns out. It is worth reading but not Hugo material. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 86 06:28:26 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: An Alternate History book we missed. I seem to have missed the list of alternate histories. Did anyone mention _The Dragon Waiting_, by John M. Ford? The Ottoman Empire didn't crumble, and good old Transylvania is still holding out. John M. Ford is apparently also a predominantly mainstream author. david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 86 06:34:52 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: John M. Ford You're kidding, right? Aside from THE DRAGON WAITING, Ford has written (so far) a total of four books, all very definitely --- and packaged as --- science fiction, including one Star Trek novel, and a Star Trek "interactive fiction" book under a pseudonym. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ****Note *new* new UUCP address**** ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 86 20:41:43 GMT From: nvuxr!5111rd@caip.rutgers.edu (R. DITCH) Subject: RE: Commentary and rating about Jack Vance In reply to Gary Allen and his article about Jack Vance, these words: I too am an avid fan of Vance's work, and have read everything he has published that I could find. Contrary to Allen's statement, his list is not complete, as it excludes the following books or collections that I have copies of: - To Live Forever (novel, Ballantine paperback) - Maske: Thaery (Novel, Berkley-Putnam hardcover & Berkley Medallion soft cover) - Dust of Far Suns (Collection, DAW paperback) - The Narrow Land (Collection, DAW paperback) - The World Between and Other Stories (Collection, Ace paperback) - The Worlds of Jack Vance (Collection, Ace paperback) - The Best of Jack Vance (Collection, Pocket Books) - Nopalgarth (Collection, DAW paperback) There may be others, especially limited edition collections like Green Magic from Underwood-Miller. Vance also has written some mystery novels under his real name of John Holbrook Vance, but I've only come upon The Man in the Cage. I think U-M has recently published some of these in expensive, limited hard cover form. I disagree with Allen's selections as the "best" Vance books, and about the Lyonesse books. My own favorites are: Eyes of the Overworld, The Dragon Masters, Big Planet, and Galactic Effectuator. As far as Lyonesse goes, Allen has surely gone overboard in rating this as zero on a 0-10 scale. I would rate both of these books as at least "average Vance." Since It had been three years since reading the first volume, I re-read it before beginning The Green Pearl, and found it to be much better than I had remembered. Vance's style is apparent through out both books, and lends itself well to the story he is telling. I'll continue to support Vance by buying his books, and hope to see book three in less than three years. Perhaps Gary Allen would expand on his reasons for his selections of his favorite Vance books; I'd certainly like to know why he rates Rhialto the Marvellous above Eyes of the Overworld, and The Dirdir above Big Planet or Galactic Effectuator. Richard Ditch Bell Communications Research ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 86 14:34:39 GMT From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: COBRA by Timothy Zahn (mild spoiler) The jacket reads: "The colony worlds Adirondack and Silvern fell to the Troft forces almost without a struggle. Outnumbered and on the defensive, Earth made a desperate decision. It would attack the aliens not from space, but on the ground -- with forces the Trofts did not even suspect. Thus were created the Cobras, a guerilla force whose weapons were surgically implanted, invisible to the unsuspecting eye yet undeniably deadly. But power brings temptation...and not all the Cobras could be trusted to fight for Earth alone. Jonny Moreau would learn the uses--and abuses--of his special abilities, and what it truly meant to be a Cobra." This is another instance of a novel put together using, in part, pieces of short stores written earlier. The main character ages about 20 years between first story and the last. This might be considered a successor to "Starship Trooper" with a touch of 6 Million Dollar Man. There's some attention to the technology, but most of the emphasis is split between adventure and the relations between Cobras and "normal" people. We hardly see the alien Trofts at all. The author does a creditable job of balancing the excitement of war with the realities of death and destruction, and most of the book doesn't take place during the war anyway. I enjoyed the book. Though I prefer a novel that covers a shorter period of time and is woven from one fabric, I though the stories here were well done. I give the book 3.0 stars out of 4.0 (pretty good). Duane Morse ...!noao!{mot|terak}!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 86 16:48:09 GMT From: quad1!laura@caip.rutgers.edu (lmc) Subject: Buckaroo Banzai, Blue Blaze Irregulars For those of you who remember "Buckaroo Banzai Across the Eighth Dimension" with fondness, and wish there was a sequel, Take Hope! Sherwood Productions, which made Buckaroo, has (sigh) no interest in making a sequel. Neither (sigh) does 20th Century Fox. HOWEVER, with enough public interest generated, there is hope that "Buckaroo Banzai against the World Crime League" will be made. Don't hold your breath, but we can try. The simplest way to make it clear that there *is* public interest in a sequel, is to write and ask to join the Blue Blaze Irregulars. All you have to do is send them your address -- there's no charge. They'll periodically send you all sorts of neat information, and keep you posted as events develop. Here's the address: The Banzai Institute 20th Century Fox Pictures P.O. Box 900 Beverly Hills, CA 90213 Also, keep your eyes open for the Penguin Books version of "Buckaroo Banzai," by Earl Mac Rauch ... it's around, and it's good! Where are we going? PLANET 10 !!! When? REAL SOON !!! Laura UUCP: {sdcrdcf|ttdica|scgvaxd|mc0|bellcore|logico|ihnp4} !psivax!quad1!laura ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 86 22:16:00 GMT From: mic!d25001@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: The Private Life of Doctor Who From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson) >... I really don't think that the Doctor would do anything >unwholesome with his female companions. John Nathan-Turner once >said (in a Time magazine interview about Doctor Who--I can't recall >the issue) that "there's no hanky-panky in the TARDIS." Also remember that while The Doctor and the other Time Lords cosmetically resemble male and female homo saps THEY ARE NO SUCH ANIMAL. The Doctor may, quite rightly, feel no more sexual attraction for his human companions than he does toward K-9 (i.e. none). Nor do we know what Gallifreyan sexuality is like. Time Lords of the opposite sex (such as the Doctor and Romana) may be attracted to each other only at infrequent intervals. Do not fall into the trap of thinking that because they look like humans being that they must also act like them. A very low (by human standards) sexuality might easily be a concomitant of their very long (by human standards) lives. Indeed, can anyone recall seeing a juvenile Time Lord? Carrington Dixon UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!mic!d25001 ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 86 16:17:20 GMT From: cheryl@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (cheryl) Subject: Re: Who again? It doesn't make sense that when Gallifreyans regenerate, they must always be the same sex that they were before. Their faces and clothes change. Even their personalities change. Why not 'nads? I think this is a far more interesting and relevant question than, "Is the doctor married?" (Of course he's not! How do you think he manages to avoid inconvenient, boring and stupid dinner parties on Gallifrey? He doesn't have a wife insisting that he attend! How do you think he has the freedom to travel extensively with young exotic MOTOS? You think a wife would put up with that?! Hmmf.) I could imagine an Angela Lansbury or Glenda Jackson type playing Dr. Who, complete with all of the doctor's technical, scientific and diplomatic savvy. Is the BBC violating any equal opportunity/employment statutes by hiring only men to play Dr. Who? Cheryl ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 86 12:29:42 GMT From: unirot!halloran@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Halloran) Subject: Re: Who again? I seem to recall seeing a quote from JN-T that they had thought to replace Peter Davidson with a female, but that 'Tradition' or whatever won out and they picked Colin Baker instead. Bob Halloran, Consultant UUCP: topaz!caip!unirot!halloran DDD: (201)251-7514 USPS: 19 Culver Ct, Old Bridge NJ 08857 ATTmail: RHALLORAN ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 86 05:42:27 GMT From: jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare) Subject: Re: filk author? 6103014@pucc.BITNET writes: >There are 2 filks that I heard at conventions and I cannot remember >the full text or the authors (Most annoying!). One goes: "We build >and scrap and overhaul it > each and every trip, > ...... > I'm the proud and nervous owner > Of half a flying wreck! The song "Half a Flying Wreck" is by John A. (Jack) Carroll, who lives in the Boston area (at least, I've met him mostly at Boskone and Noreascon) and is an active folkie performing sea chanties and the like as well as a filker. He also wrote "The Chemist's Drinking Song". I believe he is an engineer (chemical engineer?) in real life, but I could be wrong. I have his address someplace if you're desperate. Jordin Kare !lll-crg!s1-mordor!jtk ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Jun 86 0915-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #142 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 5 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 142 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (10 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 May 86 19:19:54 GMT From: randvax!jim@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gillogly) Subject: Gandalf's linguistic capabilities (new info) In "The Hobbit" Gandalf, Bilbo and Thorin pick up weapons after the trolls are turned to stone. Gandalf notes that there are runes on his and Thorin's swords, and that they will know more about their provenance when the runes can be read. Not until they get to Elrond's place do they find out that the runes are written in the language of Gondolin, and that they name the swords Glamdring and Orcrist. Why wouldn't Gandalf know the language of Gondolin? Jim Gillogly {decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim jim@rand-unix.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 86 22:30:30 -0800 From: Alastair Milne Subject: The One Ring "In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all, and in the Darkness bind them In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie." -- from the frontispiece to The Lord of the Rings At last! Earnest discussion of my utterly favorite story. 1. That one bit of verse in 2 lines says it all about the Ring. The Ring's power was domination of others, in accord with the user's stature. That was what Sauron wanted it for, that was why he forged it: to capture and dominate all the races of Middle Earth. But it was a trap: as you used it to dominate, it was dominating and corrupting you, until eventually you would be turned into a little Dark Lord yourself, and thus did Sauron try to insure his succession, even if his enemies should finally destroy him. And because the power of the trap depended on the stature of the user, it was far more dangerous for the Wise (Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, etc.) than for one small, unrecognized hobbit. Gollum was a hideous example of this process almost complete. The power it gave him was used for petty thieving and small, mean damage, which was proportional to his stature in his community. He wore it constantly, and it broke him, distorted him, and drove him mad. The corruption wasn't quite completed because where he went, there were nothing but fish to dominate (Gandalf speculated that the Ring then manoeuvred its own loss to get back to its Master). The result was a schizophrenic, thieving little murderer, living in darkness, wanting light and fearing it, the two parts of whose mind hated each other: a hideous creature at once loathsome and pitiable. That's what you got if you tried to use the Ring. After all, you didn't really think anybody would be seriously worried about a ring that just made you invisible, did you? Think of the social advantages. Bilbo is not the only one with relations like the Sackville-Bagginses. 2. The Elven Rings were not weapons at all. They were created to help the Elves and their friends do what they most wanted: build and learn. Elrond explained, to Gloin I think, that they were at work; but the manner of their function was subtle, and not to be discussed, partly, I believe, because it was essential that they be hidden from Sauron. So Narya was not at all the right tool for Gandalf to use against the Balrog; and certainly fury was alien to its nature. 3. The Ring did gain power as it approached the place of its forging in Orodruin (not, begging your pardon, Oridruin). "Return of the King" says so explicitly. However, I see no actual evidence that its power increased as the Fellowship moved through Eriador, even though Frodo had been weakened by his knife wound (he never entirely recovered from it). It did not appear to increase until it was actually back in Mordor, where it became an excruciating burden. However, it seems to me that in Lorien, within less than a kilometer of Galadriel, its power must have been very circumscribed, just as the power of Galadriel's Phial was diminished inside Orodruin. One of the few tactical advantages the Elves had over Sauron was Galadriel's power, which could discern his mind even while it concealed those of the Elves from him. 4. Somebody asked about further works of his father's that Christopher Tolkien had published. I assume that by now all Tolkien followers know about Unfinished Tales. There are many good stories there, thought CT's footnotes indicate that they are from notes which are incomplete, and sometimes conflicting. Besides stories of Numenor and Beleriand, there are some aspects of the Third Age that are covered: particularly, how the Roherrim came to live in Rohan, the pact that was made between Eorl the Young and Cirion (12th Steward of Gondor, I believe); Sauron's hunt for the Ring, when he learned that it had been rediscovered (circa "Hobbit" and early "Fellowship of the Ring", but from Sauron's point of view); and, perhaps most interesting of all, Gandalf's account, told in Minas Tirith before the Fellowship divided, of how he came to knock on Bilbo's door with 13 dwarves in tow in the first place. This last includes some vintage Gandalf: winning the War of the Rings did not change him. If you don't have Unfinished Tales, get it: enlightening reading. Following that: my brother gave me for Christmas "The Lays of Beleriand", which tell many of the great stories of Beleriand in epic poems. Those who delight in Tolkien's handling of epic poetry will love this. Like Unfinished Tales, though, it is culled from Tolkien Sr's notes, and as Christopher works back through them, they get more and more incomplete, with less development of, and more conflict between, the ideas. Samples are included of notes, criticisms, and suggestions from, among others, C. S. Lewis; so, to a degree, this book is moving back beyond Tolkien's great history into the making of that history. Please forgive my loquacity; even restraining myself to this much was an effort. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 86 23:24:59 PDT From: nj%eris@BERKELEY.EDU Subject: Tolkienmania! Ahh, this whole thing is still going on... inspired me to pull out my old copy of LotR which I ruined the spines of... Since we seem to be hip-deep in identity questions, can anyone tell me what happened to each of the Silmarils? This is kind of a technical question and I would be able to answer it if I had the Silmarillion right next to me, but unfortunately a friend from Missouri borrowed it for the summer and right now I'm in California. A friend of mine thinks someone still has one of the Silmarils, but I disagree. p.s. I used to be s7ylf4%irishmvs.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu. Now I'm nj@eris.berkeley.edu. A little less gibberishish......nj ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 86 13:05:47 GMT From: houligan!bseymour@caip.rutgers.edu (Burch Seymour) Subject: Re: Tolkien - another can of worms With all of the detailed analysis of LotR going on lately, I thought I would use this opportunity to pass along some previously unknown facts :-) about Tolkien and his books and characters. 1) Elrond - It is a little known fact that JRR was one of the first devotees of Scientology. In fact some biographers at the National Inquisitioner feel that without Scientology, TLotR would have been just another sex filled romp in the woods. But to the point, Elrond was created in homage to JRR hero L. Ron Hubbard, who was know to his friends at the time as Elron. 2) Ellesedil - Biographer I.M. Fruity makes the case that if one uses a soft C sound and "drop a few letters that didn't really need to be there anyway" you can see the name Ellesidil is derived from the english Electric Drill. He claims JRR used the character as a reminder of the well know accident in which JRR lost his big toe to an electric drill. Other scholars have pointed out that Ellesedil does not even appear in TLotR, but in a similar sounding tale by one Terry Brooks. These arguments have failed to sway Mr Fruity's thinking. 3) Ents - Another of Mr Fruity's claims is that the ents were created by JRR after a long discussion with a Mr J Daniels. The story goes like this. "JRR and his buddys were tossing a few back at the pub and watching a BAD science fiction film, "Attack of the 20 foot Ents". The movie was an early work by Edward Wood Jr. who later reached greatness with his "Plan 9 from Outer Space". Anyway, the real title of the movie was supposed to be "Attack of the 20 foot Ants", but due to a typo in the titles, and no budget left to reshoot, it got released that way. JRR must have gotten confused when he created the tree-like ents, because he used the name ents, but described the characters from another Wood classic, "Tree Monsters from Cypress Sump"." If I find any more of these little known facts :-> I'll pass them along later. Burch Seymour -Gould C.S.D. at ....mcnc!rti-sel!gould!bseymour ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 86 13:53:17 GMT From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone) Subject: Re: The One Ring That was one of the more in depth LotR articles I've read, but I have a question. You explained that the purpose of the 3 was for good. What about the 7 and the original purpose of the 9? Were they also made for more or less good reasons or evil. Also, I know Saurons hand never touched the 3 did he touch the 9 or the 7 (Before he recovered them) ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 86 23:56:00 GMT From: nucsrl!ragerj@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Tolkien's languages I can't read Quenya at all but after a little thought I'd guess that is a translation of the inscription on the ruling ring. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 86 19:38:39 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Tolkienmania! nj%eris@BERKELEY.EDU writes: >Since we seem to be hip-deep in identity questions, can anyone tell >me what happened to each of the Silmarils? This is kind of a >technical question and I would be able to answer it if I had the >Silmarillion right next to me, but unfortunately a friend from >Missouri borrowed it for the summer and right now I'm in >California. A friend of mine thinks someone still has one of the >Silmarils, but I disagree. One was cast into the Sea, one was swallowed by a great fissure in the earth, and the third is carried by Earendil as he sails the heavens. The light of it is often seen in the morning or evening and is called the Morning/Evening Star. Some of this light was caught by Galadriel and set in a phial of magic water which was given to Frodo. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 86 20:01:06 GMT From: sliu@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Sliu) Subject: Re: Tolkienmania! Easy question... One of them is in the air, circling middle-earth on a ship. The other two were tossed into the sea and down a crack in the earth by the two remaining sons of Feanor. The person in charge with sailing the ship with the Silmaril is, I believe, the son of Huor and Idril. Steve ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 86 00:14:19 GMT From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: Tolkien's languages ragerj@nucsrl.UUCP writes: >I can't read Quenya at all but after a little thought I'd guess >that is a translation of the inscription on the ruling ring. Oi! Great grief, Sauron would not use Quenya on that little project of his. The inscription was in the Black Tongue. The script was admittedly done with the Feanorian characters; but then the Ring was intended to *look* fair, and a scrawly debasement would hardly do. (Though it does make me wonder that such foul *sounds* would then be acceptable---but I never claimed to understand balrogs.) Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1516) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 86 17:03:24 GMT From: rayssd!djb@caip.rutgers.edu (Douglas J. Bonn, Esq.) Subject: Re: Tolkienmania (really history of the Silmarili) The history of the Silmarili goes like this: 1) Feanor creates the Silmarili. 2) Varda (Elbereth) hallows the Silmarili (this produces the effect that if anyone touches them under "improper" circumstances, that the Silmarili will burn them). 3) Morgoth steals the Silmarili. 4) The Noldor rebel to get them back and are cursed. 5) Beren and Luthien manage to steal a Silamril. 6) Beren gives the Silmaril to Thingol. 7) Thingol employs dwarves to put the Silmaril into the dwarf necklace called the Nauglamir. 8) The dwarves kill Thingol to get the Nauglamir ("So that's why Legolas and Gimli were so hostile early in the Fellowship..."). 9) Beren and the Ents retrieve the Nauglamir/Silmaril from the dwarves. 10) Beren and Luthien die and leave the Silmaril to their son Dior. 11) Dior gives the Silmaril to his daughter Elwing who married Earendil (the mother and father of Elrond). 12) Dior is killed by the Sons of Feanor, who fail to get the Silmaril. 13) Earendil sails West to enlist the aid of the Valar against Morgoth. 14) The remaining Sons of Feanor attack the Havens--Elwing and the Silmaril escape over the Sea to Earendil (with some help from Ulmo). 15) Earendil manages to sail over the Sea using the power of the Silmaril. 16) The Varlar launch Earendil's Star: A "ship" containing Earendil and the Silmaril. It is light from this star that is captured by Galadriel in the Phial given to Frodo. ("Why, Master, we're in the same story still!" said Samwise.) 17) The Valar aid the Men and Elves and kick Morgoth's proverbial butt. 18) Some Elves of the undying lands guard the Silmarili, claimed by the two remaining Sons of Feanor, who steal them and kill them. 19) Since the various land masses were messed up in the battle, and there were many pools and crevices available, and further that the Sons of Feanor are burned by their respective Silmarili, they each dropped theirs into a sea and a crevice. So the Silmarili ended up one in the "air", one in the water, and one in the earth. (Hmm.. pretty good for off the top of my head and after at least 7 years..!) Douglas Bonn 401-847-8000x3991 Raytheon Co/Submarine Signal Div/1847 W Main Rd/Portsmouth, RI 02871-1087 {allegra|raybed2|brunix|linus}!rayssd!djb ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Jun 86 0809-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #143 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 9 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 143 Today's Topics: Books - Herbert & Rice & Vance (3 msgs) & Wolfe & Funny SF, Films - Warriors of the Wind ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 2 Jun 86 18:40:58 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Herbert's Jorj X. McKie I keep seeing references to The Dosadi Experiment as a sequel to Whipping Star. Not so. TDE was written first and serialized. I thought it was so good that I bought it when it came out in paperback. I bought WS because it was a prequel. In my opinion, it's better suited for wrapping dead fish. Or amphibians. S&M for sentient solarians, forsooth! Herbert was one of those authors who bear great resemblances to the little girl with the curl in the middle of her forehead. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 86 15:32:11 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: THE VAMPIRE LESTAT by Anne Rice THE VAMPIRE LESTAT by Anne Rice Knopf, 1985 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper Ten years ago, Anne Rice wrote INTERVIEW WITH A VAMPIRE, in which we met Louis the vampire and saw vampire life from the other side, a la Saberhagen's THE DRACULA TAPES. But where THE DRACULA TAPES was just DRACULA retold from the vampire's point of view, INTERVIEW WITH A VAMPIRE created a new mythology for vampires, separate from Stoker's Transylvanian milieu. Rice based her vampires in New Orleans, and of French origin. Her goal was not to horrify, but to show that vampires are people too. And like normal people, they have rivals. Louis's rival was the vampire Lestat. Now, ten years later, Rice introduces us to Lestat and we learn his side of the story, his background. And eventually we (and he) meet Marius, a yet older vampire who relates the origins of the vampire race. (I can't help but predict that the promised third novel in the series will show us the early days of the vampires firsthand. If it takes another ten years for that novel, no one reading this prediction will even remember it to point out how wrong I was.) The framing sequence, set in modern San Francisco, is passable. It is the main body of the novel, the story of Lestat's "conversion" and existence in pre-Revolutionary France and Europe, which fascinates the reader. And, of course, Marius's story of *his* early existence and the origin of "homo vampiris" is almost a novel in itself. (THE VAMPIRE LESTAT is nearly twice the length of INTERVIEW WITH A VAMPIRE.) I don't want to reveal too much of the plot, since much of the enjoyment (at least for me) comes from the gradual revelations, almost like peeling off the layers of an onion. Rice is able to show us many kinds of vampires, as distinct from each other in nature as human beings are. We do not see the sameness of character that most vampire stories show us. Some of Rice's vampires are full of conscience and get their "kills" only from thieves and murderers; others are amoral and seek the young and healthy victim to gain the greatest strength and sensuality from their blood. The sensuality of vampirism is a very strong theme in Rice's novels: the seductiveness of the powers vampires have, the ecstasy of feeding, the heightened awareness of one's surroundings that their senses give vampires. This is not a child's vampire story. I highly recommend this novel. Your appreciation will be heightened if you read INTERVIEW WITH A VAMPIRE first, but that isn't necessary. I look forward to the third novel--I just hope it doesn't take another ten years. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl (or ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl) ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 86 12:44:11 PDT (Thursday) Subject: Re: Commentary and rating about Jack Vance From: Caro.osbunorth@Xerox.COM Cc: Tallan.osbunorth@Xerox.COM, ESG7%DFVLROP1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Jack Vance -- nutshell comment: a vastly underrated writer of fiction in three genres (fantasy, science fiction, mystery) that deserves to be enjoyed and emulated. I applaud Gary Allen for making a valiant attempt to call attention to Jack Vance. In a world filled with an unimaginative repetition of "pulp" themes, Jack Vance stands out as unique artist (though he calls himself, jokingly, a "crap-artiste"). Those of my friends that I have coerced into reading Vance either loved him or hated him, but no one was BORED by him. Though you may not like the way Vance writes, you must admit that his writing IS different. Unfortunately, Mr. Allen's offering has a few errors, and a major omission. The ommission is that Mr. Allen does not include the mysteries written by John Holbrook Vance (his real name -- Jack is a pen name.) Perhaps Mr. Allen felt it inappropriate to mention mystery writing in a SF-DIGEST. But, if we are going to discuss Jack Vance, we might as well call attention to all of his work. Some other omissions: - Jack Vance is one of the few writers (one of two? Help me out, Michael) to win a Hugo, a Nebula, AND an Edgar (mystery award) -- but not for the same book, of course. - "The Last Castle" won BOTH the Hugo and the Nebula. - The novel "To Live Forever" was omitted from Mr. Allen's list. There are other minor errors, but I am sure others will point them out in due course. Now, it's opinion time. "The Dirdir" the best science fiction novel? I can't agree. It's good, as is the whole series, if you don't mind mind-boggling anti-climaxes (a common Jack Vance stylistic trademark) -- but to my mind, "Emphyrio" is Jack Vance's best novel of any genre, which is saying a lot. The story is tacitly science fiction, but is more a character study, with a theme common to many of Vance's stories: a man strives to do what he does best, against adversity. If you like stylistic, antique (reminiscent of Dickens and Voltaire) humour that makes you THINK, and delight in the antics of a dishonorable, low-down, conceited, self-centered, stinking rat fink anti-hero, you will love the Dying Earth stories that include Cugel the Clever ("The Eyes of the Overworld" and "Cugel's Saga"). There are very few books that have made me laugh out loud, but these two had me rolling on the floor! I disagree with Mr. Allen's ratings in several instances. While we seem to agree that "The Dying Earth" books are his best series, I think the "The Demon Princes" is his second best series of books (though, once again, they all suffer from groan-worthy anti-climaxes), especially "The Face". What a profound imagination! If you enjoy revenge stories, read Demon Princes. The footnotes are possibly the most entertaining parts of the books! I haven't read "Lyonesse" yet (I try to wait for a series to be completely published and then read the whole thing as one rather than read each book as it is published, lest I lose the story line -- a policy that nearly killed me waiting for the legendary third book of Asimov's robot mysteries!), but I doubt that it would deserve a 0! "Wyst: Alastor 1716" deserves the lowest rating, much to my chagrin. For some reason, Vance got interested in political commentary in the seventies. "Wyst" is a thinly veiled criticism (via absurdism) of Communism. That wouldn't be so bad if the story hadn't been sacrificed for the sake of the moral. I enjoy reading Jack Vance's work and sharing my opinions with other Vance fans. Perhaps Gary Allen can organize an informal discussion -- offline? Perry Caro caro.osbunorth@xerox.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 86 16:43:47 cet From: ESG7%DFVLROP1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Additional novels omitted from an earlier survey on the works Since submitting my original list of books by Jack Vance I have been informed of some omissions. These omitted books are listed and rated below. Jack Vance also writes mystery novels which I have not tabulated. Underwood-Miller has recently published several of Jack Vance's short stories in book form. These are not included in this compilation. With the exception of the Lyonesse Series, ALL of Vance's novels and short stories are readable. Vance underwent a change in writing style from the mid 1950s to the mid 1960s. His post transition novels tend to be more fun to read. However even very early works like "Big Planet" are a pleasure to read. TITLE DATE PUBLISHED RATING (0-10, 10=best) (* = Not rated) Monsters in Orbit 1952 * To Live Forever 1956 7 Maske: Thaery 1976 8 Best of Jack Vance 1976 * On the rating system used a 6 or better is recommended. Gary A. Allen, Jr. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 86 00:03:28 GMT From: chabot@miles.dec.com Subject: Re: Commentary and rating about Jack Vance You've neglected John Holbrook Vance: _The_Four_Johns_ (Ellery Queen), _The_Fox_Valley_Murders_, and _The_Pleasant_Grove_Murders_. They're mysteries, but they're all Vance (actually, _The_Pleasant_Grove_Murders_ does have a woman from another planet). And after all, many Vance science fiction contain mystery plots. Not to mention _Bad_Ronald_, which I believe my copy at home says "Jack Vance". _Bad_Ronald_ is rather creepy, and more suspense than mystery. _Vandals_of_the_Void_ is a juvenile, so be warned before you buy. _Big_Planet_ was out in '78 or '79 from an English paperback house, but I believe DAW has neglected it? I disagree that Lyonesse should be avoided: the poignancy of Suldrun's solution I found had affected me for awhile. I also enjoyed in the latest volume watching the green pearl draw in victims. I tend to avoid the jerks-with-swords (unless they're from Scribblies :-) ) or wands, and turn green if I hit one by mistake. I will continue to buy the next Vance in this line at least one beyond a bad one that might happen (I can't expect everything to suit *my* tastes, but then I won't expect everything not to, either). I read good (as I see/like it) fantasy, not all fantasy. For a metric on my tastes, my enduring favorite is probably _Emphyrio_, because of its emotional rushes. I consider _Monsters_in_Orbit_, _The_Brains_of_Earth_, and _Vandals_of_the_Void_ to be weak. It should be pointed out that _Cugel's_Saga_ is a sequel to _The_Eyes_of_the_Overworld_. I don't know if Cugel's morals improve, but most everyone else's that he meets are even worse. _The_Dying_Earth_ and _Rhialto_the_Marvellous_ contain no Cugel. Be warned about an average (but not all pervasive) sexist slant in the science fiction and fantasy. (Men do things, women are alluring, &tc.) ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 86 22:46:46 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: BOtNS (again?!) patcl@hammer.UUCP writes: >I was just going to let this pass into ~/News/septictank when my BS >daemon went crazy at the mention of Gene Wolfe. It is appropriate >that krantz@csd2 should use Wolfe to support his views. Wolfe's >writing is either "literature" or it is boring dreck. I subscribe >to the latter interpretation. Yet, somehow, much writing that is >deliberately turgid and weighed down with excess static verbiage >(while short on real ideas) is termed by some to be "literature"; >those who declare it Feh. Wolfe uses words which seem like static verbiage (but in fact are obsolete/archaic terms, etc. to be found in any good dictionary) to give the sense of a world like ours but DIFFERENT. The words convey a flavor. This is USING the language, not merely writing in it. I wasn't too impressed with the plot, but I don't enjoy that kind of story. I can still see the craftsmanship -- he doesn't tell a story with words, he uses words to help create the imagery for the story. Let the words SHOW YOU his world. It works believe me -- BOtNS successfully visualizes a strange, altered world, much like ours, but every time it seems to become familiar, it shows you another strange facet. It's also consistent, which is missing in many books. And while I don't much enjoy the kind of story BOtNS is telling, Wolfe is telling it well (as shown by the fact that, despite my not liking that kind of story, I read three of the four books. Rare, considering that I knew from the start (from the net) what it was -- normally I may start but I won't last through the first chapter. THIS is literature. Not just telling a story, but telling it with everything, including the words themselves. (Unfortunately, too many people don't know their own language well enough to understand what's going on. And too many *authors* don't know their own language well enough to successfully write in this manner.) Poe used English in much the same way. Brandon ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 CIS 74106,1032 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Jun 86 18:07:02 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Funny SF I have waited for others to mention it, but nobody has. There is a terriffic anthology of *funny* SF short stories edited by Groff Conklin. Since my copy has vanished, I can't tell you just when it was published--late 60s or early 70s, I would think. My own personal vote for the funniest SF novel ever is the Niven and Gerrold _Flying Sorcerors_. At the first reading, the deconsecration of the housetree made me laugh *helplessly* for at least 5 minutes--I almost fell in the floor; I did cry and get a stitch in my side. Several other passages were definitely laugh out loud material. Somebody *finally* mentioned (R. A.) Lafferty, though his specialty is more whimsy than humor. Avram Davidson is another writer of whimsy, and quite good at it. Though Heinlein's _Glory Road_ is an all-time favorite of mine, I find it less humorous than tinged with self-deprecating humor. But the banquet with the poetry contest is pretty funny, come to think of it (haven't reread it in years). I do not find Anthony funny, nor even particularly readable. There is a good bit of subtle humor in R. A. McAvoy's books, particularly in _The Book of Kells_, which (contrary to a recent allegation posted) is *not* a historical romance, but a time-travel story with romance falling behind feats of valor in importance. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 86 15:53:00 GMT From: dnichols@ti-csl Subject: Re: Where can I find Warriors of the Wi >From: wood%genral.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Celeste DTN522-2590) >I have seen several references to a video of Warriors_of_the_Wind. >All the references have recommended the video so I have attempted >to find it. It is NOT at my neighborhood video store. It is not >even on the list of available videos from the local chain "Sound >Warehouse". Can anyone reccomend a video chain that has this video >in their catalog and available for ordering or viewing? > >I live in Colorado so Boston, LA, or New York stores probably won't >help. I doubt if you will find it anywhere locally. I would suggest you try mail ordering it from either Books Nippon or Japan Video 532 W 6th St 1731 Buchanan St. Los Angeles, CA 90014 San Francisco, CA 94115 415-563-5220 Let us or me know if you have any luck. I have been contemplating trying to order the original Japanese version, but just haven't done it, yet. Dan Nichols POB 226015 M/S 238 Texas Instruments Inc. Dallas, Texas 75266 USENET: {ctvax,im4u,texsun,rice}!ti-csl!dnichols ARPA: Dnichols%TI-CSL@CSNet-Relay CSNET: Dnichols@Ti-CSL VOICE: (214) 995-6090 COMPUSERVE: 72067,1465 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Jun 86 0830-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #144 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 9 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 144 Today's Topics: Books - Card & Heinlein & Recent Reads & Codex Seriphinianus & Generation Ship Stories & Book Request & Herd Aliens & Footfall (2 msgs), Films - Alexander Nevsky, Television - Doctor Who (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Conventions & Copyright Information ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 Jun 86 20:34:23 GMT From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) Subject: Re: ENDER'S GAME by Orson Scott Card leeper@mtgzz writes: >Ender's abilities are just too unbelievable for his age. Even >assuming that Ender has the best training possible and that the >world has a much expanded population to choose from, it is still >extremely unlikely that there would be someone as young as Ender >with his abilities. Remember that Ender was the product of an world-wide breeding project for geniuses -- and that he was the finest subject in the history of the project. The others were good -- just not good enough. Consider Alexander the Great, who was the result of unassisted genetics and low-technology training, who died extremely young (20?) and yet managed to forge the largest empire in the world during his time. Now consider Ender, who was the result of applied genetics, advanced military training, and high-technology psychological conditioning -- it's not unreasonable to conclude that he would have extraordinary abilities. >A good strategy will help a lot, and some commanders might have >runs of good luck and win many battles, but eventually the law of >large numbers takes over. All other things being equal, the side with the most powerful forces will usually win, but all other things are not equal when one side has a brilliant commander and/or innovative tactics. The ability to use the unexpected and unconventional is critical. If superior force leads to victory over superior tactics, then we would have lost the American Revolution, and we would have won the Vietnam War. >It is worth reading but not Hugo material. I disagree -- I think that this novel is both Hugo and Nebula material. Obviously other people feel the same way, as Ender's Game has won the Nebula and has been nominated for a Hugo. Brian Yamauchi Carnegie-Mellon University Computer Science Department ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu BITNET: q110by04@cmccvc DECNET: by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 6 Jun 1986 08:25:36-PDT From: parodi%siva.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (John H. Parodi) Subject: GULF Many years ago, someone told me that Heinlein's _GULF_ was written as a contest entry. It was alleged that the title of the story was chosen by the editor of an SF magazine, that the contest was for professional SF writers, and that Heinlein's entry was the winner. Can anyone confirm or deny or provide details? [In Heinlein's story, "gulf" referred to the the large and ever-widening gap between homo sapiens and homo superior. I would be very impressed if it turned out that this excellent story was spun off of a one-word suggestion.] JP ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 86 22:00:15 GMT From: srt@ucla-cs.ARPA (Scott Turner) Subject: Recent Reads When an author tries to write a "big story" - one that covers lifetimes, great distances, and whole societies - he faces a problem. Normally he uses a character viewpoint. This gives the writing a personal aspect that makes it accessible (and involving) to the reader. But no single character lives a thousand years nor sees all the workings of his society. There are two ways to solve this problem. The first is to extend the character's lifetime, either directly or by following (for instance) a chain of characters from a single family. The other solution is to follow many different characters as they each spy some portion of the story, and then to somehow draw these story lines together in a climax. The first solution has been more popular in SF, first because extending a character's lifetime is easy in SF, and secondly because it is arguably the easier of the two solutions for an author to handle. The classic version of the extended-life approach to a big story is Robert Heinlein's Lazarus Long. It's been a long time since I read the various Lazarus Long stories, but I'd say that Bruce Sterling's _Schismatrix_ compares well. It moves at a fast pace; it is fairly packed with inventiveness, and you come away feeling that as Man expands into Space, history will become more reckless. In _Schismatrix_, the main character - he goes by a number of names - fights his way through various societal changes in the post-Space human culture. Mankind has inhabited the solar system and split into two opposing camps, the Mechanists and the Lifers (?). The Mechanists seek life extension and control of the universe through technology, and the Lifer's seek advancement through biology. Why the two camps are at such odds isn't precisely clear, but they battle for control of the Solar System. The Earth is a backwater; it is the colonies around Saturn, Jupiter and in the asteroids that are the real prize. All of this is interrupted by the arrival of aliens, who turn out to be more mercenary than mercenaries, and the whole makes for an interesting read. The other approach is exemplified by _The Eleven Million Mile High Dancer_ by Carol Hill. (Though obviously science fiction, this book is being carried as popular fiction.) It tells the story of a female astronaut, Amanda Jaworski, who gets involved in events of previously unknown strangeness when launched towards Mars. In the "entwining threads" approach to telling a big story, the author starts off telling several different, not apparently related stories, that converge as the book precedes, until they are all one story line by the climax. The author's point is to reveal to the reader how all this apparently divergent things are one; hopefully the reader learns something from this and is enlightened. However, it is all too easy for the author to construct a story where the connections between the story lines are based on "tricks" or not particularly enlightening relationships. _The Eleven Million Mile High Dancer_ falls prey to this trap. It's a fast-paced, jam-packed book, but the connections are obscure to the reader largely because the author keeps the reader in ignorance. As connections are revealed they are largely anti-climatic. The other danger in this form of storytelling is that the reader will be so confused during the early parts of the novel (as it jumps from story line to story line) that he'll abandon the novel before any synthesis begins. And I must admit that I nearly abandoned _The Eleven Million Mile High Dancer_ for this very reason. Despite these problems, _The Eleven Million Mile High Dancer_ is not altogether a bad read, and if you like the mainstream approach to fantastic subjects you'll probably find this worth your while (in paperback). Scott R. Turner ARPA: (now) srt@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA (soon) srt@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU UUCP: ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt HAIRNET: ...!{clairol,tegrin}!srt@hairnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Fri 6 Jun 86 11:01:15-PDT From: Brian Bishop Subject: Codex Seriphinianus in L.A. area.... For those of you in the L.A. area who are interested in the Codex Seriphinianus, I stumbled across it by accident after searching for it unsuccessfully for two weeks. The place is called The Soap Factory, and it has a great deal of fun stuff. It is located in the 7400 Block of Melrose Ave. It is indeed an amazing book. One of my favorites is the people that burst into tigers. Brian ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 86 01:43:35 GMT From: ulowell!dobro@caip.rutgers.edu (Chet Dobro) Subject: Re: Generation-ship stories? One I can think of that talked a little about it was James White's _sector_general_ series. Spec. ref: _ambulance_ship_ (I think) where they found the *Einstein* Hope that's of any help. Phone: (617) 937-0551 USMail: P.O.Box 8524 Lowell, Ma. 01853 E-Mail: ...!decvax!wanginst!ulowell!dobro ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 86 02:54:46 GMT From: ulowell!dobro@caip.rutgers.edu (Chet Dobro) Subject: trying to find a book... I have been trying to locate a book for a while now. I know it exists, having owned it a one point. It vanished from my library just prior to my last move. None of the people (whom I KNOW have read it) that I talk to can remember it. I cannot find it in _Books_in_Print_. HELP!!! I don't remember the author but the title was: _Children_of_the_Griffon_ (no relation) I am not sure of the author's spelling of the last word (ie. whether s/he got it right or not). Anyone out there knowing anything of this please help. Thanx in advance. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 86 16:56:38 GMT From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Humans vs Herd Aliens Intelligent herd/hive society (mild spoiler: ENDER'S GAME, this year's nebula winner, by Orson Scott Card. Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Jun 86 18:19:26 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Niven & Pournelle's Footfall I've read Footfall rather recently, and agree with the reviewer here in SF-L who characterized it as reminiscent of Lucifer's Hammer. The element in Lucifer's Hammer which was clearly absent from Footfall was that of the roving feral humans. I didn't find anything missing from the ending. It seemed adequate to me, except *******SPOILER WARNING******* that I could have enjoyed, I think, a bit more about what the humans on the snouts' ship did after the surrender. Did the humans against aliens collapse as rapidly as one might anticipate from the monumental paranoia which Pournelle attributes to the Soviets? And were they successful at retrieving the survivors from Michael? And what happen edto the military types back on earth for bucking the Prez? It sounds to me like they're deliberately leaving room for a sequel. ******END SPOILER******* Sorry that this and other responses are so late. I've been running weeks behind on my e-mail for several months now. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 86 18:18:20 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Footfall 'snouts' From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA >how in the world did we get those space shuttles up into >space? Did they go up on Michael Yes. Michael was described as a flat steel plate, with a hemispherical detonation chamber underneath. >how did they get from Florida to Bellingham without being >bombarded? I presume in ships labeled with the "friendly snout". Remember that this symbol was to be used only for food, medicines, etc. Remember that when Michael was authorized, they said that they would have to police that *others* did not misuse the symbol because they would have to misuse it themselves for the project. From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu >Arthur C. Clarke ... was lamenting the fact that man hadn't >domesticated any new animals in recorded history. He suggested >that it might be nice to ... tinker with an elephant ... Does this >sound a bit familiar? It may sound familiar, but I wouldn't expect that there is any relationship. Didn't you (and others who have speculated snidely about other sources of the alien concepts) read the Acknowledgements? Niven and Pournelle credit Bonnie Dalzell with the concept of their aliens. Dalzell is a Ph.D. candidate in comparative vertebrate anatomy at Penn. She TA's comparative anatomy for vet students. She is also an artist of some note, and has had contracts from the Canadian government to reassemble skeletons of extinct animals (dinosaurs and mastodons). She is a dog breeder of some years standing (15+). I am assuming that the dog breeder in the story is *intended* as a compliment to her. I haven't talked to her since I read the story--we tend to get too far into abstruse subjects at long distance rates--but I'm sure they didn't ask her to look at the parts about the dog breeder. There is one totally egregious error. Nonetheless, if their other acknowledgements are of individuals as knowledgeable in their areas as Dalzell, they consulted a stellar array of experts. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 86 13:46:10 GMT From: unc!hultquis@caip.rutgers.edu (Jeffrey P. Hultquist) Subject: Re: Star Wars >>HIDDEN FORTRESS is out on cassette and I have been meaning to >>write a review of it. It actually is not that close to STAR WARS. > >Well, not to say that any movie with two humorous peasants, a >powerful stranger and a princess is STAR WARS, but certainly all >the plot elements are there. You were expecting maybe a >scene-for-scene comparison like SEVEN SAMURAI and MAGNIFICENT >SEVEN? ... ALEXANDER NEVSKY by Sergei Eisenstein has a great many parallels to STAR WARS (actually, the other way around, since NEVSKY was filmed in the late Thirties.) In particular, the two humorous peasants, Teutonic "stormtroopers", and a priest that looks just like the Emperor. Jeff P.M. Hultquist hultquis@unc decvax!mcnc!unc!hultquis ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 86 21:17:48 GMT From: cheryl@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (cheryl) Subject: Re: The Private Life of Doctor Who His grandaughter appeared in the very first episodes; she had been studying in England, when the Doctor picked up his grandaughter and two of her teachers. Is the grandaughter of a Time Lord also a Time Lord, or does it require some special training? Cheryl ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 86 18:06:00 GMT From: acf4!percus@caip.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus) Subject: Re: Who again? > I seem to recall seeing a quote from JN-T that they had thought to > replace Peter Davidson with a female, but that 'Tradition' or > whatever won out and they picked Colin Baker instead. Not quite. This was a small joke which JN-T and Tom Baker decided to play on the British media and public. It actually took place after Tom Baker decided to leave -- in a press conference, he said that he wishes the next person playing the Doctor the best luck, "whomever he or she may be." JN-T then agreed with this. Not surprisingly, the British papers all had on their headlines the next day, "Next Doctor Who to be Played by a Woman." A. G. Percus (ARPA) percus@acf4 (NYU) percus.acf4 (UUCP) ...{allegra!ihnp4!seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 86 02:13:45 GMT From: ulowell!dobro@caip.rutgers.edu (Chet Dobro) Subject: Re: Southern California Conventions Could someone please do a similar thing for cons in the uppen NE corner [New England, New York, New Jersey, and Penn.] please? I have tried to reach this mysterious list and can't. Thanx in advance. Phone: (617) 937-0551 USMail: P.O.Box 8524 Lowell, Ma. 01853 E-Mail: ...!decvax!wanginst!ulowell!dobro ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 86 17:00:09 GMT From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Copyright Page Info (reposting) Copyright notice must contain the first publication date of the work in question. When verbatim chunks have appeared previously (e.g., as separate short stories) then the copyright information about previous publications is required. When a complete re-write has been done (e.g. ENDER'S GAME), no notice is required, since the copyright law treats this as a new work. Robert J. Sawyer Member, SFWA c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Jun 86 0854-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #145 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 9 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 145 Today's Topics: Books - Cherryh & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Rice & Vance & Funny SF & Footfall, Films - Barbarella & Star Trek IV Television - Star Trek & Doctor Who (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 Jun 86 11:55:16 GMT From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: CUCKOO'S EGG by C. J. Cherryh (mild spoiler) The jacket reads, in part: "His name was known throughout the world: Duun, hero, whose scarred face and body represented a dire threat narrowly averted; Duun, hatani, one of those superbly trained individuals revered by all the shonunin as mystic, warrior, guardian and judge. Out of respect and tradition they would refuse him nothing. But in this case, even the few longtime acquaintances who might have been considered friends -- if hatani permitted themselves to form friendships -- would have prefereed to grant almost any other request. Still, they gave him the infant to raise as he wished, and he took the child far away from civilization to Sheon, where he had spent his own childhood. Duun called the boy Thorn, forcing himself to overcome his natural repugnance for the tiny creature's strange, hairless body -- like something freshly skinned; the alien ears and hands and eyes that brought back so many disturbing, painful memories. Thorn grew strong under Duun's careful guidance. At first his education was as basic as any child's. He would run after Duun on short baby legs until, exhausted, he could run no farther.... As years passed the training intensified. The boy learned of weapons and the suffering they could inflict; he learned to hunt, when the alternative was to go hungry; he learned mathematics; and he learned to endure, because Duun would not let him give up. Above all, he learned to be always alert and wary...never to trust anything or anyone. Not even Duun himself." The story takes place on an alien world, and Thorn is the only human. One learns bits and pieces of the culture as the story progresses, but the emphasis is on the relationship between Thorn and Duun. What little technology is revealed doesn't seem to be all that different from our own. Duun's character seems to be drawn from Eastern Zenn warrier philosophers, which is interesting, though not exciting. Since there is not a great deal of dialogue between Thorn and Duun, Thorn's thoughts are very often put in parentheses, something which got to grate on my nerves. There's not much action. The characters are mildly interesting, but I never developed much sympathy for either. The world is mildly interesting, but not a lot was revealed about it. I always felt like an outsider, and the climax took too long to reach and didn't pack the uumph it should have. I give this book 2.5 stars out of 4.0 (it's fair, but I'll definitely trade it in). Duane Morse ...!noao!{mot|terak}!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 86 21:20:53 GMT From: cpf@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Courtenay Footman) Subject: Re: GULF >From: parodi%siva.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (John H. Parodi) >Many years ago, someone told me that Heinlein's _GULF_ was written >as a contest entry. It was alleged that the title of the story was >chosen by the editor of an SF magazine, that the contest was for >professional SF writers, and that Heinlein's entry was the winner. >Can anyone confirm or deny or provide details? The actual story behind Gulf is this: It appeared in the Nov 1949 issue of ASF. (Maybe Oct, I'm working from memory.) It was an unusual issue. For one thing, all of the stories were by "name" writers. For another, it was the only issue of ASF ever to have two serials in it. Also, the Campbell editorial is an interesting one on how science fiction could be a self fulfilling prophecy, and (without explanation) gave that issue as an example. Finally, there is the fact in a letter dated Nov 1948, and published early in 1949, someone sent in a "review" of the 1949 issue, complete with all authors and their respective titles. JWC had gotten all of the authors in that letter (which was unsolicited) to write stories with those titles; since two people wrote long stories, this caused the two serials. Thus the title did come first with Gulf. Courtenay Footman Lab. of Nuclear Studies Cornell University ARPA: cpf@lnsvax.tn.cornell.edu Usenet: {decvax,ihnp4,vax135}!cornell!lnsvax!cpf Bitnet: cpf%lnsvax.tn.cornell.edu@WISCVM.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 86 02:54:21 GMT From: utastro!mccarthy@caip.rutgers.edu (Susan Elizabeth Hill) Subject: Re: GULF Okay, let's see if it will work this time: I'm new to this sort of thing. About GULF: A fan, as a lark, wrote a letter to John W. Campbell, Jr., in which he detailed the contents of ASTOUNDING for the next year. He commented on stories by del Rey, Sturgeon, Heinlein, and others, plus made remarks about the cover artist (whose name slips me.) Campbell thereupon got each of the writers named to write a story using the fan's titles; and the aforementioned artist to do the cover. GULF was Heinlein's contribution. Hope that helps. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 86 17:52:38 GMT From: ptsfd!djo@caip.rutgers.edu (Dan'l Oakes) Subject: Re: THE VAMPIRE LESTAT by Anne Rice Actually, according to interviews with Ms Rice (some of them done quite some while ago) at least three books were planned from the start. She decided to delay the second book so she could write some other things and not get "pigeonholed" as a vampire writer. The other interesting point that ECLeeper does not bring up is that Rice's vampires are subtly but clearly gay. DJ Danehy-Oakes ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jun 86 17:09:34 cet From: ESG7%DFVLROP1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Further remarks about Jack Vance and response to other Subject: readers When this current discussion on Jack Vance concludes I shall resubmit the original list of books with the additions provided by other readers of SF-LOVERS. This updated list should be helpful to readers of one of SF's great authors, Jack Vance. R. Ditch in his response to the original note asks for clarification on my preferences. This seems a rather futile activity since it all boils down to a question of taste which will always be subjective. I am currently reading _Big_Planet so I can not rate this novel or comment on it. However _Big_Planet is early Vance (1952), so it seems strange to me why anyone would prefer it over Vance's later and more polished works. _Rhialto_the_Marvellous is Vance's latest work and it reflects the over thirty years of science fiction writing behind it. _Rhialto is a quasi-fantasy. I employ the word "quasi", because Vance is using the old device of presupposing a technology so advanced that it is indistinguishable from magic. Also the work is mainly a farce, and satirizes the concepts of fantasy, which to my mind justifies the use of this literary form. I am of the opinion that "pure fantasy" has had a generally negative effect on SF. Pure fantasy has brought in a lower class of readership and has unfortunately provided an economic incentive for master authors like Vance, Silverburg and others to write fantasy rather than SF. J.R.R. Tolkien is the only pure fantasy author who's works seem to have been a real benefit to SF. However Tolkien was a philologist and a first rate scholar. His books were a labor of love and scholarship and not a simple desire to rake in cash from simpletons. Steven Grady's remarks on the _The_Gray_Prince are of interest. _The_Gray_Prince and _Wyst:_Alastor_1716 are two examples of where Vance trips over his own politics. In both novels he is pushing some of his political ideology (which is conservative) and the plot suffers as a result. However I enjoyed both books. They simply were not Vance's best. Since Steven Grady lives in Berkley, I suggest that he can find Vance novels at "Future Fantasy" on El Camino Real in Palo Alto. The owner of "Future Fantasy" is another Vance fanatic. He can also write to Underwood and Miller who are publishers of first edition Vance novels. These novels are a bit pricey but are of extreme quality. This publishing house seems to have been formed for the specific purpose of publishing Vance novels in long life acid free books (Yes, people are that fanatic about Jack Vance). I've bought most of their stuff and am trying to form a complete collection of Vance first editions. Perry A. Caro's views on Vance closely parallels my own. Perry, could you scan my list and remark upon (and evaluate) novels that I have marked with an "*" ? Gary A. Allen, Jr. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 86 22:52:37 GMT From: genat!phoenix@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Funny SF ellis@sage.UUCP (Sean Ellis) writes: >>... I couldn't get into _Star Smashers etc_ at all. It was too >>much like >> Heinlein... > >Heinlein ??? THE Robert A Heinlein, or Joseph Q Heinlein, the >famous Dutch author who no-one else has ever heard of ???? :-) It >is obviously written in the style of E.E.'Doc' Smith ! ( cf Skylark >series) Try reading it sometime... the similarity will astound you. Maybe Doc Smith---or *maybe* the great guru of SF, John W. Campbell, Jr.? What do you think net-landers? Has anybody read Campbell's stuff and liked it? (Besides me, I mean, I love that kind of sense-of-science sf. The new guys like James Hogan and such are good, but I miss the old days...) (Well, pseudo-science, anyway...) Be seeing you... ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 86 18:04:51 GMT From: sunne!z@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Zimmerman) Subject: Re: Footfall It has already been noted that some (if not many) of the characters in Footfall are takeoffs on real people. But what about Harpanet, whose name is clearly a takeoff on our beloved DOD network? His name doesn't even match the style of the names of the other fithp. And as I am sure that Pournelle and Niven are quite familiar with the Arpanet, I can only conclude that this must be intentional. What does this MEAN? Steve Zimmerman ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 86 15:53:44 EDT From: cjh@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: burning BARBARELLA Fonda's desire to wipe BARBARELLA from the face of the earth probably has little to do with political correctness (which is a strange-sounding phrase from someone who wanted her tried for exercising her rights of free speech and free association). Despite the fact that she is apparently the sole occupant (and hence, presumably, pilot) of a substantial spaceship, the film Barbarella is the sort of airhead who would make the average Valley Girl look like a substantial citizen. The film is a travesty even of the original French comic strip, in which Barbarella is a lusty, relatively self-willed wench instead of an object acted on by others. The opening scene is worth seeing simply from a technical viewpoint, though; it's as good a simulation of zero-G as anything of that period, including 2001. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 86 11:38:35 GMT From: danews!trb@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Balent) Subject: Re: ST IV rumor From the April 14, 1986 issue of Navy Times, there is a two page story (with pictures) about the star trek iv film crew filming aboard the aircraft carrier u.s.s. ranger (cv-61). It seems that they wanted to film on u.s.s. enterprise (cvn-65), but that ship was busy somewhere else in the world (i.e. the med). So they made the ranger look like the enterprise.(?) If there is enough interest I will type the whole article in and submit it to the net. t.balent at&t-ns columbus ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 1986 12:54 EDT (Fri) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: STAR TREK/Wars From: Garrett Fitzgerald >Last night, when I was watching "Newhart", I caught a doubly-swiped >line. I was just considering asking you readers for the line and >the situation in Star Trek, but I will instead quote the line: "I >felt a disturbance in the Force." Now, who knows what episode of >Star Trek Lucas swiped that from? Not exactly swiped, but close >enough so that I'm embarrassed that I didn't catch it before. It's from "Attack of the Giant Amoeba" :-) (Actually, the Immunity Syndrome, I believe). 'Twas said by Spock at the beginning to start the whole thing off. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 86 17:41:06 GMT From: cheryl@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (cheryl) Subject: Re: Who again? halloran@unirot.UUCP (Bob Halloran) writes: >cheryl@batcomputer.UUCP (cheryl) writes: >>It doesn't make sense that when Gallifreyans regenerate, they must >>always be the same sex that they were before. Their faces and >>clothes change. Even their personalities change. Why not 'nads? >>I think this is a far more interesting and relevant question than, >>"Is the doctor married?" > >I seem to recall seeing a quote from JN-T that they had thought to >replace Peter Davidson with a female, but that 'Tradition' or >whatever won out and they picked Colin Baker instead. Ah, so they were willing to *consciously* sacrifice the higher good of Fairness for the conventional 'good' of "'Tradition' or whatever...." (But let's call a spade a spade, shall we? Sexism may be 'Tradition', but it's still sexism.) Susan, the Doctor's grandaughter, would make a far better Time Lord than this TURKEY of a 6th Doctor. What kind of self-respecting Gallifreyan would care to associate himself with that dim-witted co-ed? O.K. so Dr. #6 really does need someone that stupid around to make him look good. Doesn't help much, does it? Cheryl ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 86 20:25:49 GMT From: hdsvx1!hoffman@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Hoffman) Subject: Re: Who's brother? > The Master is in no way related to the Doctor. You'll recall that > in "The Five Doctors," the First Doctor has no idea who the Master > is when they meet in the Dark Tower. This doesn't mean that the master can't be a future incarnation of the doctor himself, in which case they might be said to be "related". Richard Hoffman hoffman%hdsvx1@slb-doll.csnet ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 86 19:41:55 GMT From: hdsvx1!hoffman@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Hoffman) Subject: Re: Future Who From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson >> But in the case of the Doctor, an even more interesting >> possibility presents itself: The Master could be a future >> regeneration of the doctor! > > We all know that the Master's goal in life (besides domination of > the universe, of course) is the destruction of the Doctor. So if > the Master is indeed a future Doctor, he would be trying to kill > himself. And if he succeeded, then how could his future self exsit > to kill his past self? Quite a paradox there. Not necessarily. Whatever it was that caused the Doctor to become the Master could have erased his memory of having been the Doctor. Or, with his incredible knowledge of time loops and so on, the Master could be aware of a scheme (*far* beyond our comprehension, of course), which will allow him to dominate the universe *if* he can accomplish the delicate task of ridding the universe of his past without ridding it of himself. "Bosh and bullsnoods"? This is, after all, a science-fiction show, and a frequently rather silly one at that. _Dr. Who_ succeeds in spite of (and, yes, probably because of) its little scientific inaccuracies and implausibilities, so why not allow them a big one? Richard Hoffman hoffman%hdsvx1@slb-doll.csnet ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jun 86 05:01:24 -0800 From: Alastair Milne Subject: Re: The Private Life of Doctor Who > ...Indeed, can anyone recall seeing a juvenile Time Lord? Yes: Romana when she first appeared:). I don't know how the White Guardian came to choose her, but I think her travelling with the Doctor was the most fortunate thing that could have happened either to her or Gallifrey. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Jun 86 0834-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #146 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 11 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 146 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 May 86 22:58:18 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Of rings vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) writes: >friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes: >> Because possession isn't enough, a certain knowledge of >>the Ring and its operation, and a certain "rappor" with it are >>necessary for its powers to be manifested. At the beginning, Frodo >>had not "grown" in the power of the Ring enough to use it at all. >>Also, Lorien is closer to Mount Doom where the Ring was made, thus >>it was more powerful there. > >Why do you think any of this is so? Frodo seemed to be able to use >the chief powers of the ring all along: the invisiblity, the moving >to the wraiths plane, and the preservation effects. I know Sauron >would have derived other powers, but I thought there was a big >point made about how ultimately only Sauron could use the ring. The PRIMARY use, that you name above, is (all) related to moving the wearer into the wraiths' plane. This is its INTENDED effect on lesser wearers. Which is how Nazgul came about in the first place. Other abilities, which Frodo was NOT strong wnough to use, included the ability to read minds (especially the minds of other Ring-wielders, INCLUDING Sauron. Re-read the sequence where Frodo discovers that Galadriel is wearing the Elven-ring. But ANY use by any other than Suaron would corrupt the user into a servant of Sauron. This is because the power of the ring is in fact Sauron's own mind, which is why casting the Ring into Orodruin destroyed Sauron. >Did moving the ring toward Mt. Doom make it more powerful, or just >make Sauron aware of it once it was there and in use? Both. Being closer to its source of power (Sauron), it became more powerful and Sauron became more aware of it (the drain on his own mind?). Brandon ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 86 16:13:27 GMT From: wjvax!brett@caip.rutgers.edu (Brett Galloway) Subject: Re: The One Ring paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone) writes: >What about the 7 and the origanal purpose of the 9? Were they also >made for more or less good reasons or evil. Also, I know Sauron's >hand never touched the 3 did he touch the 9 or the 7 (Before he >recovered them) I believe that the 9 were made by Sauron to ensnare the Numenoreans; they were thoroughly bad. I think that Sauron also had a hand in the making of the 7, although he didn't make them himself. They tended to make the dwarves that possessed them inordinately greedy, so it was probably a good thing that they were lost as well. Brett Galloway {pesnta,twg,ios,qubix,turtlevax,tymix,vecpyr,certes,isi}!wjvax!brett ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jun 86 08:41:38 EDT From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: Tolkien's Languages In (yet another, I'm sure) reply to psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) here are two translations of his poem: > Min corma ilye caanien, Min corma te tuuvien, > Min corma ilye yalien, Ar mii mornie te mandien. Ash nazg durbatuluk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thratuluk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul! Or, in Common; One Ring to rule them all, one Ring to find them, one Ring to bring them all an in the darkness bind them (In the land of Mordor where the shadows lie.) >It should be rather easy if you know any Quenya vocabulary. Acutually, anything but a literal, word for word, translation needs no knowledge of Quenya, but rather a pattern-finding ability of the simplest form, kind of like the way one solves those cryptograms in the newspaper. From close to no mental knowledge (it's all in books for me) of the language, I reasoned out what it must be, and checked a few words to be sure. Of course, if I'm totally wrong, then I'm a fool, pure and simple. As to the meaning of Sarima, well I have no guess on that (not being a linguist of any sort). But, perhaps someone can tell me if my guess about the following phrase, pseudo-invented by my non-linguistic self, translates back properly into common: Rethin, Guladan! It probably doesn't, but maybe I got lucky. Anyway, thanks for trying in advance. John White WHITE@DREXELVM.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 86 01:50:52 GMT From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Tolkien's languages friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes: >What follows is a small poem translated into >accurate, well-attested High Elvish, that is Quenya. Can anyone out >there figure out which poem? Even better, translate it? > > Min corma ilye caanien, Min corma te tuuvien, > Min corma ilye yalien, Ar mii mornie te mandien. Even with no vocabulary it would be obvious from the structure that this is the inscription on the One Ring: Ash nazg durbatuluk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatuluk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul. or, translated from the Orcish, One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the Darkness bind them. which in turn is part of a longer verse so well known in Elvish and even Mannish lore that I will not bother to repeat it. >For extra credit, what is the meaning of my signature name(Sarima), >it is also Quenya, but it is not found in this form anywhere in the >extant corpus. (No fair those of you I have explained it to >answering!) I cannot gloss this even using all the references I have handy. I will take a guess that it is an extrapolation of what the name _Saruman_, which means "Man of Skill" in (I think) Sindarin, would have been in Quenya, based on phonetic transformation, but I am not sure of that. pH ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 86 02:26:12 GMT From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Tolkienmania! nj%eris@BERKELEY.EDU writes: >Since we seem to be hip-deep in identity questions, can anyone tell >me what happened to each of the Silmarils? A friend of mine thinks >someone still has one of the Silmarils, but I disagree. Morgoth stole the three Silmarilli and set them in his Iron Crown. One of them was stolen from him by Beren and Luthien, and it was reset in the Nauglamir, the Necklace of the Dwarves, thus combining the fairest works of the races of Elf and Dwarf. The Nauglamir was eventually passed down to Earendil and rides with him yet through the Sky. The other two Silmarilli were not retaken from Morgoth until the War of Wrath which ended the First Age, in which the Valar entered into Middle-earth to contend with Morgoth once again. At that time Maedhros and Maglor, the two remaining Sons of Feanor, stole the great jewels which had been their father's greatest creation from the Valar, and each took one for himself. But the blessing of Varda caused the Silmarilli to scorch their hands, for they had become evil, so that in order to end their torment Maedhros hurled himself and his gem into a fiery chasm in the Earth, and Maglor cast his into the Sea. pH ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 86 03:18:37 GMT From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Tolkien's languages I write: >friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes: >>For extra credit, what is the meaning of my signature >>name(Sarima)... > > I cannot gloss this even using all the references I have handy. >I will take a guess that it is an extrapolation of what the name >_Saruman_, which means "Man of Skill" in (I think) Sindarin, would >have been in Quenya, based on phonetic transformation, but I am not >sure of that. Of course I immediately remembered the fact that _Saruman_ is in fact his Mannish name, _Curunir_ being the Elvish, and in fact I believe it is Quenya. I concede, and await guesses from others. pH ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jun 86 04:51:56 -0800 From: Alastair Milne To: Phil Paone Subject: Re: The One Ring > What about the 7 and the original purpose of the 9? Were they >also made for more or less good reasons or evil. Also, I know >Saurons hand never touched the 3 did he touch the 9 or the 7 >(Before he recovered them) The creation of the Rings of Power: 0) The Elves, seduced by the still handsome-seeming Sauron, cooperate with him in developing the techniques to forge rings of power. None of the rings produced by this collaboration apparently was significant to history, though Gandalf regarded them all nevertheless as dangerous for mortals to have. 1) The Elves produce, BY THEMSELVES, the three elven Rings: Narya, Vilya, and Anya(?). Their purpose was to help the Elves attain that which was dearest to them: knowledge. I think, in fact, that they were produced by the legendary smith Celebrimbor -- one of them at least was. Sauron was entirely absent, nor did his hand ever touch the Three. 2) Sauron retires to the Cracks of Doom in Orodruin and forges for himself the One Ring, using the secrets gained from the Elves. He places in it a large part of his own power (and character). He places the Ring on his finger and speaks the inscription. Celebrimbor immediately becomes aware of him and what he is done, and the Elves know they have been betrayed. The Three are immediately hidden, for nobody can tell what, if any, effect the One would have on them. Some hope it would have none, but many are fearful. 3) Sauron moves to seduce the other free races of Middle Earth. He forges the Seven, to be given to the 7 houses of Dwarves, and the Nine, to be given to 9 Black Numenorean kings who serve him. These Rings are to be slaves to the One, and turn their wearers into no more than shadows of Sauron's own will. The Nine could hardly succeed better: the nine kings become nine terrible, powerful ghosts, the most powerful of all Sauron's servants, and the only ones he trusts, since their wills are now no more than extensions of his. They are the Nazgul, the Ringwraiths. (Though I have seen no mention of it, once they wore those rings, all their peoples must have belonged utterly to Sauron.) The Nazgul wear the Nine to the moment of their destruction in Orodruin's eruption. The Seven fail. Though they make the Dwarves more covetous, more lustful for gold, they in no way make them susceptible to domination. If anything, they become more secretive, and guard their hoards more jealously. The failure earns the Dwarves Sauron's particular hatred. Enraged, he exerts his power to draw the Rings back to him. Though he is not successful, one or another misfortune strikes all the wearers, until the Seven are all lost to the Dwarves. (I believe the last was taken from Thrain in Dol Guldur, where Gandalf found him raving, only a century or so before Bilbo's first adventure.) 4) When the One Ring is destroyed in Orodruin, the power of the Three and all that had been done with them begin to fade, proving the fears of the Wise correct. And I think this is at least part of the reason that the start of the Fourth Age sees the end of the Elves in Middle Earth. So: the Elves had nothing to do with the One Ring, and Sauron had nothing to do with the Three. And as far as I know, these are the only rings of power created in Middle Earth (beyond the Elves' and Sauron's first essays). Certainly I have not seen any others mentioned. BTW, this reminds me of a final point about the One that I should have mentioned in my previous discussion: besides being designed in general to give its user the powers of domination, the One was designed more specifically to be Master to all the others, even (if Sauron were lucky) the Three: this is what I intended to point out by quoting the frontispiece. Certainly the Wise feared that the One might be able to dominate the Three; they were certain that, if they were used openly, Sauron would detect them and their wearers, and their capture would then only be a matter of time. I wonder if Sauron ever imagined that Gandalf himself wore one? I never thought about this before, but it seems to me likely that it was Galadriel's own power (and that of Caras Galadon, and the star Earendil) that revealed her Ring to Frodo. Contact with the One had sensitised him, certainly, but he was not trying to use it in Lorien, nor would he ever have wished to. Gandalf's power, on the other hand, was mostly concealed: he revealed little of himself, even to his friends. Certainly he would never have revealed his Ring while Sauron still lived, and I think Frodo would not have seen it unless he had. (Of course, the One would have shown him, had he used it so; but can you imagine Frodo attempting to command the One Ring against Gandalf? Absurd. ) So I think that is why Frodo never knew it. And though, in the parting at the Grey Havens, it was finally revealed, I think the revelation meant less than it formerly would have because of the degree to which the Rings' power had faded after the One was destroyed. I haven't enjoyed posting to sf-lovers so much in ages! Let's keep it up! Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 86 01:32:07 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Gandalf and Narya milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes: >So Narya was not at all the right tool for Gandalf to use against >the Balrog; and certainly fury was alien to its nature. Nevertheless -- When Gandalf confronts the Balrog he names himself as ``wielder of the Secret Flame''. At the time I took it as just a password of wizardry of some kind... when I discovered that Gandalf was wearing Narya, the Ring of Fire, a great light dawned. But why did Gandalf virtually give the game away to the Balrog -- a (former) lieutenant of Melkor, even?! You would expect that Melkor's followers (the Balrog of Moria and Sauron) would have kept in touch... Brandon ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 86 00:02:38 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Silmarils sliu@topaz.UUCP writes: >Easy question... One of them is in the air, circling middle-earth >on a ship. The other two were tossed into the sea and down a crack >in the earth by the two remaining sons of Feanor. > >The person in charge with sailing the ship with the Silmaril is, I >believe, the son of Huor and Idril. His name is Earendil; he was Elrond's father. [I remember that chiefly bacause of Bilbo's noting in FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING that the Elves were making comments to him about having ``the cheek to make songs about Earendil in the house of Elrond''.] (P.S. His father was Huor's son Tuor.) Brandon ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Jun 86 0852-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #147 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 11 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 147 Today's Topics: Books - Card & Heinlein & Michener & Vance & Anthologies, Films - Neuromancer (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Etymology ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Jun 86 20:58:45 GMT From: cybvax0!mrh@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Huybensz) Subject: Re: ENDER'S GAME by Orson Scott Card leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes: > ENDER'S GAME is about the training of Ender from age five to >twelve, teaching him to be a great military genius. The idea is to >combine the kid with the best raw material with the best military >training and end up with not just the world's best 12-year-old >military commander, but with a commander who cannot lose, period. >And that is Card's chief failure-- Ender's abilities are just too >unbelievable for his age. Even assuming that Ender has the best >training possible and that the world has a much expanded population >to choose from, it is still extremely unlikely that there would be >someone as young as Ender with his abilities. Ender is never >convincing as a person of his supposed age. This might be more a failure on your part, depending on how many young geniuses you've known. And how many of them have received training suited to their talents. This is a problem of all fiction about exceptional people: it has to work hard to convince us because we have limited experience outside our own mediocrity (in most aspects). > In addition to this, though I have never seen an analysis, it >seems that there are theoretical limits to how good a military >commander can possibly be. Of course, superior force is a big >advantage, but the commander who wields it is considered to be >powerful, not good. The good commander is one who can be counted >on to win a higher proportion of the time than would be expected >from the size of his forces. The thing is that an army is a >sufficiently complex organism that it cannot be perfectly predicted >what it will do. This is what is wrong with ENDER'S GAME and >Gordon Dickson's "Dorsai" novels like TACTICS OF MISTAKE. A good >strategy will help a lot, and some commanders might have runs of >good luck and win many battles, but eventually the law of large >numbers takes over. A Dorsai can figure out in advance exactly >what his enemy will do, but that is only because Dickson is >contriving the situation so that the enemy has only one course of >action to take. In real life, commanders use whims and hunches and >weigh alternatives in ways Dorsai or Ender could not psyche out. >And armies are not totally obedient monolithic organisms. One can >postulate that Card's insect-like Buggers will follow the commands >of their queen, but Ender is victorious over humans in battle and >humans are not totally predictable. I think you misunderstand the theme. I view the theme as training to see new strategic possibilities in as-yet poorly understood situations. That's why the rules of the games were kept changing. The goal was to be able to discover offenses and defenses as quickly as possible as new data about situations becomes available. Many of the famous successes of warfare are directly attributable to understanding novel situations. I had a similar-flavored experience in college when I was first introduced to the myriad varieties of fairy chess. You learn a different set of skills than when you deeply explore the static rule system of traditional chess. > ENDER'S GAME is a good novel, though the reader becomes >impatient for something besides training to happen, then it >concludes itself very quickly. Saying more than that about the >structure of the novel would be giving spoiler clues as to how the >novel turns out. It is worth reading but not Hugo material. Did we read the same book? I considered the ending unusually long and well- sustained. Unfortunately, I haven't read the other Hugo nominees yet, but I consider it a good candidate. It's one of the most satisfying SF works I've read this year. Mike Huybensz ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 86 10:09:06 EDT From: cjh@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: RAH universes and... I haven't read THE CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS (I've had it with Heinlein's self-indulgence!) so I can't argue with most of Steven Jones's carefully assembled arguments in SFL 11.139. However, two things occur to me: 1) Hazel Stone's claiming to be an adopted child just doesn't fit with her stories in ROLLING STONES; my recollection is that she talks specifically of being a colonist. (I also wonder about the social change required between MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS (women as a protected species) and RS (Hazel says she left engineering as a young woman because 3 men -"who couldn't do Xth-order differential equations without a pencil and paper got promoted over [her]"- ---in TMIAHM would she have gotten the chance?). In fact, RS is the Moon as a 1950's American suburb, which should be more than a couple of generations from the Australian frontier model of TMIAHM.) 2) RS ties into the main-line universe---the ship has a near-miss with one of the UN's "peacekeeping" satellites, which are a feature in SPACE CADET (which memorializes Ezra Dahlquist, one of the heroes of the Future History). The satellites could happen elsewhere, but I don't see the UN being that powerful in the GULF universe. Of course, it's Heinlein's universe(s), and if he has the explicit tie-in Jones mentions arguing with it is probably as futile as trying to teach a pig to sing. Some authors have the sense not to try to tie everything together, or say flatly that they aren't trying to, even with names being reused (Cottman IV is mentioned in some of Bradley's non-Darkover novels, as is R. R. Kadarin (the one who finally dies while misusing the sword of Sharra).) Others try, and make a mess of it (look at the contortions Asimov went through in ROBOTS AND EMPIRE! Incidentally, I just reread PEBBLE IN THE SKY, which I think was his first novel; the decay of the robot-oriented culture is explicitly mentioned by Bel Arvardan (the archeologist). So much for all the questions about why there are no robots on Trantor. There was at least one other story from the 50's in which it was stated that the Aurorans were a dead end.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 86 14:36 PDT From: Judy Anderson Subject: SF-y mainstream fiction So I recently read James Michener's SPACE, which is a mainstream novel about SF-like topics. Actually it's a novel about the development of NASA and the space effort, and he uses a lot of actual events as well as some fictional ones. I think I discovered something about non-SF: he really spent a lot of time making sure his characters were really well-developed and well-rounded. Hmmm... I guess I must like cardboard characters, at least in some respects, because I got real tired of reading about things which really had nothing to do with the actual thread of events (I can't really call it a "plot" since it traced the lives of fictional people centrally involved in the space effort which matched actual events very closely, and I don't think of life as having a plot, it just goes from one state to another). If you can tolerate the well-roundedness of all the characters it's a good read. I found it slow at the beginning (probably because he started in in World War II) but it picked up and was hard to put down in the last half of the book. A good book to take along on an airplane trip. One thing was fairly neat: I was in Washington DC recently and I visited the National Air and Space Museum (highly recommended!), and a lot of the airplanes and rockets that were talked about in SPACE were on display at the museum so I got to see what he was talking about. (Maybe that's one advantage of mainstream fiction: it describes "real-world" things so you can actually visit or see the things talked about, where it's going to be hard to actually see the nifty civilization on alpha centauri...) Judy. ------------------------------ Date: Fri 6 Jun 86 12:02:10-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #139 > The most widely currently available novels by Vance are of the > _Lyonesse_Series . These novels are NOT recommended. I respectfully disagree with this. For some people (myself and Lin Carter, for two), the best part of Jack Vance's writing is the writing itself. He is one of the best (i.e., most to my taste -- I don't want to restart the Great Literature wars) prose stylists I have read. His command of other more or less technical things, like description, characterization of certain kinds of people, choosing of names, and creation of certain kinds of society are superb. This is what _I_ read Jack Vance's work for, and why I buy new Jack Vance books on sight. He is not as good in other technical matters. His plots are rarely exceptional. The protagonists of his novels are monotonously similar, and not especially interesting as people. (Magnus(?) Ridolph is one exception; Cugel is another.) He tends to overwork good ideas, especially in novels. (* None of this seems to matter in his short stories. Both Ridolph and Cugel were related collections of short stories. *)But you don't read Vance's work primarily for plot and characterization, any more than you drink a fine wine primarily to get drunk. Reading Vance's work with this in mind, I found _Lyonesse_ one of his better novels. Some of the reason was that there were four or five threads of story going on most of the time, and the book felt like several good and extremely creative short stories read in parallel, as good as the _Dying_Earth_ which is several good short stories read in serial. Toward the end, when the stories started converging, I found the book much less fun. _The_Green_Pearl_ had fewer plots, and had Vance's usual problems with writing novels (and it didn't answer or even address many of the questions Vance asked at the end of _Lyonesse_), and I for one didn't like it as much. I would rate _Lyonesse_ 8 (on 0..10), and _The_Green_Pearl_ 5. > Works with a 10 either received a Hugo/Nebula or should have. ALL > of Jack Vance's works including _Lyonesse_ are better than 99.9% > of what one would typically find for sale as Science Fiction. I agree. Who else is similar? Michael Shea tries to imitate Vance's style, but I don't think he does a very good job. Tanith Lee has a somewhat similar writing style, and is (usually) every bit as good -- and she can handle characterization and long plots as well. Lord Dunsany and James Branch Cabell share Vance's skills and flaws, but they're not writing much these days (nothing that has come out in this country, anyways 8-). Who else? Bard ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jun 86 18:25 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Anthologists review I have been reading some anthologies with some common editors and I feel they should get some credit where cedit is due. The two editors in mind are: Martin H. Greenberg Charles G. Waugh Too often are these gentlemen teamed up with a "bigger" name to create a wonderful anthology. It has gotten to the point where I don't care "who" edited the book. If they had Martin and Charles helping, I will be more than happy to buy it and read it. They have never dissapointed me. Here is a list of anthologies that I have read and recommend to everyone on the net: Dragon Tales with Isaac Asimov Catastrophies! with Isaac Asimov Witches with Isaac Asimov Cosmic Knights with Isaac Asimov Spells with Isaac Asimov Mythical Beasties with Isaac Asimov Comets with Isaac Asimov Body Armor 2000 with Joe Haldeman All of these books are delightful, with the tales filling the spectrum from 1940 to the present. There are famous and unknown authors represented therein and I have seldom read a story I disliked. I could go into all the stories in each of the books, but that's not the point. The point is that Martin and Charles are doing their damnedest to produce anthologies of great short stories and they are succeeding! In The Science Fiction and Fantasy Book Review, Martin H. Greenberg was declared to be "The King of the Anthologists"; to which he replied, "It's good to be the King!" Does anyone (Oh, Jerrrrry!) have a complete list of what these gents have produced? Jon ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 86 07:50:15 GMT From: reiher@ucla-cs.ARPA (Peter Reiher) Subject: A film of "Neuromancer"? The LA Weekly reported one of the less likely recent Hollywood projects. A couple of cabana boys got interested in "Buckeroo Banzai". They tried to get David Begelman to sell them the sequel rights, but Begelman wouldn't sell. One of them stumbled across William Gibson's novel, "Neuromancer". They really liked it, and managed to get the wife of a rich plastic surgeon (to whom one of the two had become attached) to fork up $100,000 to buy the rights to it. Now they're bopping around Hollywood making utterly improbable deals in the process of getting the film made. They want to make it in Showscan, and have talked to Douglas Trumbull about doing so. They've made a deal with Timothy Leary to write software for the film. (One of the details that makes me think this one is doomed to failure; Leary has been fooling around with computers the last few years, but is no better than an interested amateur.) Earl MacRauch, the writer on "Buckeroo Banzai", has been hired to write the screenplay. They're talking to several directors, including W.D. Richter ("Buckeroo Banzai"), Peter Weir, Ridley Scott, and Nicolas Roeg. The details of the article make the two sound like dilettantes who are somehow fooling important people into taking them seriously. Their plans for financing the film are sketchy, at best, neither has any experience with film production, neither really know much about films. Apparently, people are bowled over by their gall. They are unlikely to lose money on the deal, as several studios have already expressed interest in "Neuromancer", so they can probably sell it at a profit if reality ever reasserts itself. Of course, they might actually make it. Stranger things have happened in Hollywood. It will be interesting to see what develops. Peter Reiher reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 86 20:51:07 GMT From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) Subject: Re: A film of "Neuromancer"? Sounds interesting -- It's one film, I will definitely see if they make it. Douglas Trumbull and Ridley Scott would be sure to do a good job. However, I have doubts about Timothy Leary's programming ability. I hope they do have realistic computer technology (not like the Vic-20s that seemed to dominate the starship bridges in Star Trek III). Nevertheless, the most important thing would be to be true to the novel. By the way, what is Showscan??? Brian Yamauchi Carnegie-Mellon University Computer Science Department ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu BITNET: q110by04@cmccvc DECNET: by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun 8 Jun 86 13:54:23-CDT From: William DeVaughan Subject: Re: The Original Source of "Obs" As far as I know, the earliest source in the lexicon is in the Novella "And then there were none" by Eric Frank Russell, first copyright 1951 by Street and Smith Publications, most likely to be found available in Doubleday's 173 (1973) publication "The Science Fiction Hall Of Fame" Volume iiA (IIA) edited by Ben Bova, stories chosen by the members of the SFWA (Science Fiction Writers of America). This is the same story that introduced MYOB (Mind Your Own Business) and F-IW (Freedom-I Won't) Maybe someday we'll have a society as rational as the one he posits! Bill DeVaughan ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Jun 86 0915-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #148 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 11 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 148 Today's Topics: Books - Card & Herbert & Generation Ship Stories & Footfall & Anthologists, Films - Invaders From Mars & Star Trek & Chrome, Television - Doctor Who (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Convention Listings ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Jun 86 12:13:22 EDT From: cjh@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Ender's tactics The argument over Ender's tactical skills may reflect what I see as a poor decision on Card's part. The story from which the book was developed spent some time on a section of Ender's training that was glossed over in a paragraph or two in the book: what happened when the instructors deliberately handicapped Ender's 'toon. I am no tactician (as some of the gamers around here would be happy to tell you) but I found everything that was described to be plausible. Another thing that was used as a shocker at the end of the story but had to be part of the known background in the book was Ender's age. It is a (often cynical) comment from older people that the young have an incredible self-certainty that is only gradually tempered. I'm not interested in arguments over the exact truth of this conclusion (I recall some talk of Ender's personal drive---the desire to succeed is certainly needed in addition to the intellectual skill); \\to the extent that it is true// it could provide Ender an additional edge, especially since there was a large time element in all of his maneuver tests---doing \\something// almost immediately was likely to be better than taking a lot of time to find the precisely correct action. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 86 06:34:03 cdt From: ivanlan%ccvaxa@gswd-vms.ARPA (Ivan Van Laningham) Subject: Herbert's Jorj X. McKie Wrong. Whipping Star was serialized in _Worlds Of If_ Dec 69 -- Mar 70. The Dosadi Experiment was copyrighted in 1977. TDE may have been serialized, but if so I do not remember it. This information is on the copyright pages of both books. TDE contains on the first page a reference to Whipping Star. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 86 01:38:08 GMT From: oliveb!jerry@caip.rutgers.edu (Jerry Aguirre) Subject: Re: Generation-ship stories? I have read many "generation ship" novels and the theme of cultural instability (ie revolution) is a common one. I think it is, however, an unjustified one. There are many existing examples to draw upon for isolated cultures and the trend is for greater, not lesser, cultural stability. Consider some of those isolated mountain villages. For many of these contact with the outside world is less than it might be on a starship. Most of these cultures have existed with little change for hundreds, and in some cases thousands, of years. What changes that have occurred can usually be traced to OUTSIDE influences, not internal breakdowns. It is usually increasing communication and travel that have resulted in the breakdown of social systems. The size of a culture also determines its stability. The larger a group, the greater chance that one of its members will come up with some disruptive idea. So I would say that a relatively small group of people, isolated from outside interference, would have greater cultural stability. I would think that technical breakdown would pose a far greater threat to any long term voyage. A small group totally dependent on their own resources for life support is terribly vulnerable to accidents. On the scale of the entire earth a fire, chemical spill, or even a reactor meltdown is a drop in the bucket. Within the limited resources of a ship any of these could devastate the entire culture or just kill everyone outright. Accidents like these happen every day on ships and large buildings all around the world. Consider what one of these accidents would be like if there was no chance of evacuation, assistance, or even an outside source of fresh air. Yes, the designers would take measures to reduce the odds of such accidents. But given a long enough voyage, even the improbable accident will happen. No matter how careful the design there is always the stuck relay or lazy maintenance. Bulkhead doors designed to isolate sections will be propped open, isolated life support systems will somehow be cross connected, some idiot will pour flammables down the drain, or some hero will try to save the people in the isolated section and let the disaster spread to the other sections. I think there is far more chance (but less adventure) in finding a hulk with all aboard dead, than savages living on a generation ship. I also have a hard time finding justification for the voyagers not believing the records about non-ship life. I think it is far more likely that they would over believe than doubt the stories in their library. The further away something is the more ridiculous the stories people will believe about it. Jerry Aguirre @ Olivetti ATC {hplabs|fortune|idi|ihnp4|tolerant|allegra|glacier|olhqma} !oliveb!jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 86 12:14:32 EDT From: cjh@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: accuracy in FOOTFALL >but I'm sure they didn't ask [Dalzell] to look at the parts about >the dog breeder. There is one totally egregious error. > >Nonetheless, if their other acknowledgements are of individuals as >knowledgeable in their areas as Dalzell, they consulted a stellar >array of experts. I find this ironic, as I nearly pitched away the book in the first few chapters in response to what I saw as a ridiculous attempt to improve saleability by making FOOTFALL resemble a contemporary thriller by throwing in "corroborative detail intended to add verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative"---the extensive descriptions of Washington DC and environs. E.g., the drive in from Dulles airport wasn't as deserted as they describe even when they last flew in to DC (probably 1974, for the Worldcon) and now is so heavily built up that it's a toll road for anyone not going to the airport, and they get the CIA HQ's alias wrong (I'd have to reread F (which I'm not about to do) to remember what they said but I remember thinking at the time that what they said was certainly not what I remembered from riding past twice a day for several years.) After that I was unwilling to believe anything they came up with; they would have been better off fuzzing details rather than getting them specifically wrong. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 86 13:42:55 GMT From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: Anthologists review I, too, am a fan of Martin Harry Greenberg. He has revitalized the whole anthology market, making re-print homes for stories that would just have disappeared without his help (personal bias: my "The Contest" is in 100 Great Fantasy Short Short Stories (Avon), edited by Isaac Asimov, Terry Carr and Martin H. Greenberg -- although all correspondence I had was with MHG). Each year I nominate this man for the Best Professional Editor Hugo. Robert J. Sawyer c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 86 14:43:29 GMT From: ukma!slg@caip.rutgers.edu (Sean Gilley) Subject: Invaders From Mars -- Question/Discussion about ending MAJOR SPOILER TO FOLLOW. I wasn't all that impressed with this movie, and I became less so when I saw the ending. But before I get into the real questions, let me recount the ending as I first interpreted it. Little boy leaves alien ship being followed closely by alien possesed mother and father. He runs, and as he is running away the alien ship explodes from bomb placed by army. Controlling objects in Mom and Dad's heads short circut (or something) and they are no longer possesed. Happy ending. Almost. 'Cause now we see little boy awake in bed being consoled by Mom and Dad... it's all been a bad dream. He tries to go to sleep, but what happens? The alien ship lands. He runs in to his parents room to tell them.. and screams. End of movie. Okay, it all seems as if it is just a very cliche ending. Stupid, dissapointing and bad. But then I started wondering why the kid screamed as he looked into his parent's room. I came up with the following possibility: Though we see the little gizmos short circut, the parents really are still controlled. The ship that was sent up and exploded was either fake, or there were two ships that landed. When the kid wakes up, his parents are ready to console him. (Question: were the parents fully dressed in this scene? I think so, but I'm not sure.) They tell him it's a bad dream because that's what they want him to believe. He sees another ship land.. the same ship or something of the sort.. runs to tell Mom and Dad.. enters their room and sees something that indicates they are still alien possesed. It wasn't a bad dream, and the world is still in peril. Did anyone else get this idea.. or some other that accounts for him screaming at the end? Or am I making up something that really isn't there. (A distinct possibility.) I don't recommend this movie if you haven't seen it. It starts very slowly. The first time I really started to get interested in the thing was fifty minutes into the film. (I looked at my watch.) And then the end blew it all for me. Still if you want to see it and try to shed some light on the ending, go ahead, I won't try to persuade you not to go. Enjoy, Sean L. Gilley Phone: (606) 272-9620 or (606) 257-8781 {ihnp4,decvax,ucbvax}!cbosgd!ukma{!ukgs}!slg slg@UKMA.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 86 14:28:53 GMT From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (S. Luke Jones) Subject: Re: Re: ST IV rumor > It seems that they wanted to film on u.s.s. enterprise (cvn-65), > but that ship was busy somewhere else in the world (i.e. the med). > So they made the ranger look like the enterprise.(?) I suppose that Star Trek can be forgiven for insisting on the Enterprise, but, I swear, that ship is the most overused aircraft carrier in the fleet: Tom Cruise et al. use it in _Top Gun_ also. Also, isn't the E'prise supposed to hang out in the Indian Ocean? But the real reason for this posting is: Leonard Nimoy was on CNN's Larry King Live the other night. He confirmed most of the rumors that have been bouncing around the net re: STIV, and added this: STIV is supposed to be a comedy!! The customary anti Harve Bennet/Leonard Nimoy flame is left as an exercise for the reader.... S. Luke Jones AT&T Information Systems Middletown, New Jersey ...ihnp4!mtung!slj ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 86 18:20:28 GMT From: sadoyama@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Eric J Sadoyama) Subject: Re: A film of "Neuromancer"? From the San Francisco Examiner, Monday 9 June 1986, page E-5: "MARILYN BECK -- HOLLYWOOD "A Movie for Bette" Barring a last-minute collapse of negotiations, Bette Davis will head to Hong Kong in September -- to star in Matty Simmons' "Burning Chrome" sci-fi feature. "Chrome" will mark the star's first big screen assignment since 1980. The plucky 77-year-old actress, who suffered a stroke, a broken hip, and underwent a mastectomy in 1984, resumed her career last year with the "Murder With Mirrors" TV movie and is currently featured in HBO's "As Summer Dies" -- but has been anxious to return to the big-screen fold. "Burning Chrome" is being produced by Leonard Mogel and Nick Cowan, who made Simmons' 1981 "Heavy Metal". Like the animated "Metal", it will be a non-National Lampoon film -- Matty's second. He also has four Lampoon productions in the works, including "National Lampoon's Vacation III". He tells me he's awaiting completion of the second draft of the "Vacation" script and that he'll be rushing it off to Chevy Chase. Chase has told me he has absolutely no interest in another "Vacation", but Simmons still seems confident he'll lasso Chase for the project. [more unrelated stuff]" Unquote. This didn't mention Gibson by name, but "Burning Chrome" *is* the name of his new short story collection. Hmmm... Eric J Sadoyama 2033 Haste St. #107 Berkeley CA 94704 USA (415) 548-1711 sadoyama@pavepaws.BERKELEY.EDU or {backbone}!ucbvax!pavepaws!sadoyama ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 86 08:41:19 GMT From: jablow@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Eric Robert Jablow) Subject: Re: The Private Life of Doctor Who david@comp.lancs.ac.uk (David Coffield) writes: >cheryl@batcomputer.UUCP (cheryl) writes: >>His grandaughter appeared in the very first episodes; she had been >>studying in England, when the Doctor picked up his grandaughter >>and two of her teachers. Is the grandaughter of a Time Lord also >>a Time Lord, or does it require some special training? > >I don't think Susan was his *real* grandaughter, >though, which of course means she wasn't a Time Lord ... Of course Susan was the Doctor's granddaughter. She had psychic powers, even. Remember "The Sensorites"? She certainly wasn't human. She may not have been very experienced. After all, she probably couldn't fly the TARDIS herself, but she was almost certainly of the same race as the Doctor. To have 3 different species on the TARDIS in the beginning would be just too wild. As for her "studying", she probably went to school only to avoid truancy laws. Respectfully, Eric Robert Jablow MSRI ucbvax!brahms!jablow ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 86 15:49:00 GMT From: acf4!percus@caip.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus) Subject: Re: The Private Life of Doctor Who > Of course Susan was the Doctor's granddaughter. She had psychic > powers, even. Remember "The Sensorites"? She certainly wasn't > human. She may not have been very experienced. After all, she > probably couldn't fly the TARDIS herself, but she was almost > certainly of the same race as the Doctor. I am of the same race as you. Does that mean I am related to you? You assume too much -- Susan was indeed a Gallifreyan, but there is no substantial evidence that she was the Doctor's granddaughter. > ...Is the grandaughter of a Time Lord also a Time Lord, or does it > require some special training? This is debatable. Officially, I think you have to graduate from one of the Gallifreyan Universities before becoming a Time Lord, so Susan was probably not one. However, the terms Gallifreyan and Time Lord were used almost interchangeably even by the late Robert Holmes, designer of Gallifrey, so there is no real answer. A. G. Percus (ARPA) percus@acf4 (NYU) percus.acf4 (UUCP) ...{allegra!ihnp4!seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 86 9:57:32 CDT From: Rich Zellich Subject: SF Cons List is available to everyone ulowell!dobro@caip.rutgers.edu (Chet Dobro) writes: >Could someone please do a similar thing for cons in the uppen NE >corner [New England, New York, New Jersey, and Penn.] please? > >I have tried to reach this mysterious list and can't. I'll send a copy of the list to Chet; for him or anyone else who doesn't have direct FTP access to ARPANet/MilNet host SRI-NIC, requests can be sent to ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA (via your favorite gateway). Besides being willing to send out a few individually-requested copies of the list, there are also 2 mailing lists for update-notices: 1 for people with direct FTP access, that get just a brief notice that the file has been significantly updated since the last notice (although the file is updated constantly and is always available on SRI-NIC in it's most current form); and the other mailing list for people who DON'T have direct FTp access - these people get the entire list sent in a message (but only one per site - users are expected to redistribute it locally as required). Enjoy, Rich Zellich ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Jun 86 0842-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #149 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 16 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 149 Today's Topics: Books - Brooks & Bushyager & Card (2 msgs) & Ford & Heinlein & Herbert & Howard & Generation Ships, Films - Neuromancer, Television - Where Are They Now? & Doctor Who (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin) Subject: Re: Book Publication Date Wanted?? Date: 9 Jun 86 13:03:50 GMT bseymour@houligan.UUCP writes: >Does anyone know when (or even if) the third Terry Brooks book >_Wishsong_of_Shannara_ (I think it is) will be published in regular >(read cheap) paperback format. The paperback edition has been available in the UK for some time now - I bought my copy towards the end of last year. I always thought that the books tended to be published in the US first - you should be able to get it by now, I would think. Best of luck finding it - it's a good read!! Jim ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 86 13:32:10 GMT From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: THE SPELLSTONE OF SHALTUS by Linda E. Bushyager (mild Subject: spoiler) The jacket reads: "In the days of the Great War between the Eastern Kingdoms and S'Shegan, the evil wizard Shaltus had been brutaly punished for an unspeakable crime. Now he had returned, seeking vengeance from the void of hell. The black soul of Shaltus lived again! Battling for survival, cast out by her own people, the sorceress Leah had to marshall the forces of might and magic. For she alone could banish the barbarous evil that had invaded the castle of the S'Carltons and had sworn not to rest until the house of S'Carlton had been annihilated." The teaser is not especially illuminating, and it is not particularly accurate. Leah is indeed a sorceress, but not by profession -- she was born with the talent, along with all of her siblings. Nor is she the only one who can destroy the wraith. The story is quite a bit more involved than the jacket summary would have you believe. Leah comes from two cultures and is accepted by neither. Both sides play roles in the story, and among both sides there are those who aid Leah, and those who oppose her. The most concrete aid comes from a wandering sorcerer, Rowen; in fact, it is Rowen who assumes leadership in the battle agains the wraith. I recommend this book if you're looking for an exciting, fast read. It's a good adventure: interesting, multi-faceted characters, a fast pace, a coherent theme, many small climaxes and one big one at the end, where it should be. I give the book 3.0 stars out of 4 (i.e., it's pretty good). Duane Morse ...!noao!{mot|terak}!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 86 02:16:52 GMT From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Ender's Game with possible spoiler (so read the book Subject: already!) In any case, people who read all the way through will discover that the Buggers were NOT fighting by the time Ender came along -- that is one of the ironies of the book. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 86 18:52:00 GMT From: jimb@ism780 Subject: Re: ENDER'S GAME by Orson Scott Card Just to add more meat to the stew about Evelyn's review of ENDER'S GAME.... For the most part, I agree with her. I found the book disappointing in the context of the rave reviews and as a result think that it was vastly overrated. Not BAD, mind you, just not one of the best things since SF was invented. A pleasant way to spend a few hours, better than average space opera. About Ender. I, too, found him too unbelievable. Not so much intellectually, as emotionally, especially in the 5-7 age range. I never believed his outlook. You can talk all you want about genetic breeding; emotional outlook is a product of experience and you just can't cram that much maturing (towards whatever your goal is) experience in that little a time. And I don't care if you're doing it 24 hours a day with the latest techniques. I believe that you *could* cram all sorts of knowledge, making for a reasonable fascimile of intelligence, in that time. But wisdom is a different kettle of fish. For a slightly off comparison, look at the human race as a whole. In seven millenia, we've gone gangbusters on acquiring knowledge. Unfortunately, we've used a lot of that knowledge to invent things like tv commercials, electric toothbrushes, conditioned fashion-following, neutron bombs, and scratch-and-sniff porno mags -- things that if we were one collective, conscious, rational entity, we would say, "hey, bag this shit!". Ooops! Slipped off into a harrangue, but I think you see my point. Jim Brunet ihnp4/ima/ISM780 hplabs/hao/ico/ISM780 sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ISM780C/ISM780 ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 86 05:13:12 GMT From: gt-stratus!chen@caip.rutgers.edu (Ray Chen) Subject: Re: John M. Ford Jerry Boyajian writes: >Aside from THE DRAGON WAITING, Ford has written (so far) a total of >four books, all very definitely --- and packaged as --- science >fiction, including one Star Trek novel, and a Star Trek >"interactive fiction" book under a pseudonym. Being a John Ford fan, I thought I'd elaborate on the 4 books he's published under his real name. Princes of Air and Darkness Web of Angels The Final Reflection (a Star Trek book) The Dragon Waiting These all come highly recommended. Even the Star Trek book for non-Trek fans, as the novel is primarily about Klingons (and the Federation) in times before the "current" Star Trek books (e.g. when Spock was just a kid and McCoy was in diapers). Also, a warning. John Ford is not the kind of writer who likes to hit readers over the head with things. He doesn't go out of his way to be obscure (e.g. purposely hide what's going on), he just assumes he's writing for an intelligent reader. Just about every word is important so don't be in a hurry when you read his novels and be willing to go back and re-read sections a bit later if you didn't quite pick up on what was going on. It's worth it when you do. The most extreme case of this happening was in The Dragon Waiting where I read the thing in a hurry, went "Huh?", re-read it, and then to paraphrase SZKB, things went "click, click, click, click, WHAM!!!" I enjoyed them all, but would rank Princes of Air and Darkness (his first book, I believe) last, and put other three in a tie. Share and Enjoy! Ray Chen gatech!chen ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 86 14:47:53 GMT From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (S. Luke Jones) Subject: Re: RAH universes and... > From: cjh@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) > I haven't read THE CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS (I've had it with > Heinlein's self-indulgence!) so I can't argue with most of Steven > Jones's carefully assembled arguments in SFL 11.139... > Of course, it's Heinlein's universe(s), and if he has the > explicit tie-in Jones mentions arguing with it is probably as > futile as tyring to teach a pig to sing. Some authors have the > sense not to try to tie everything together... I assure you the tie-in is there. I agree with your arguments, but my point is that, as the author, it is Heinlein's perogative to join anything he wants and, as the author, he can keep manufacturing connections until arguments like yours are all used up. I used to worry about these things too: my favorite was how Lazarus Long cried like a baby the night his mother died ("Methuselah's Children") but told her later (eariler) that the families had no record of her death (_Time Enough for Love_). Heinlein must have noticed this error, because he fixed it in _Number of the Beast_. The best thing about RAH Multiverses (tm) is that he can explain away any discrepancies in a single mumbled phrase about alternate universes rather than waste a couple of pages with a more complicated, more tenuous connection. S. Luke Jones AT&T Information Systems {...!ihnp4}!mtung!slj ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 86 14:33:42 GMT From: edison!dca@caip.rutgers.edu (albrecht_d) Subject: Re: Re: Science in SF (was Re: Off-mark predictions) Personally, I think that Herbert only two books that were worth keeping (and I keep alot of pretty borderline stuff). Dune and The Godmakers. Given how lousy everything else he wrote was I have always been amazed how good Dune was. My feelings on Herbert is that except for Dune and The Godmakers he is incapable of writing characters that I give a rip about. Dune had a very delicate balance between plot, characterization, and mysticism. Unfortunately in most of his other books he wanged the balance over to mysticism leaving plot and characterization behind. Like mystery writers he seems to want to uncover some unexpected revelation but in the mystical or spiritual domain instead of in the plot. These revelations are generally hackneyed, stupid, and predictable. The Jesus Incident had to be one of the worst Herbert's I ever read, tons of boring prose leading up to an inane psychology 101 conclusion. David Albrecht ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 86 14:40:29 GMT From: utastro!mccarthy@caip.rutgers.edu (Susan Elizabeth Hill) Subject: Robert Howard Fifty years ago today, on 11 June 1936, Robert E. Howard went out to his car and blew his brains out. You might not have heard of Howard, but he was a writer, and his most famous literary creation, the iron-thewed barbarian Conan the Cimmerian, lives on in cheap paperbacks, trade paperbacks, expensive small press books, posters, two execrable movies, and a comic book series. Howard was neither a good writer nor a skilled one, but what makes him outstanding was that he was an incredibly good tale-spinner. No matter how racist, sexist, crude, bloody or vile his work seems, it is readable; it has a hypnotic intensity that drags a reader into the story and keeps him (or her, though there seem to be fewer female Howard readers than male) there until the story's end. Had Howard lived, it seems quite probable that the face of 20th century American culture would be different. This is not an overstatement. Howard would have crashed the high paying pulp magazines, and the slicks, rather than being known only to the readers of the poor and belatedly paying *Weird Tales*. Louis L'Amour could not have competed against Howard's westerns. The genre of Sword and Sorcery fiction, which Howard began, would have been his playground. L. Sprague De Camp and Lin Carter and Poul Anderson and Andy Offut and Ramsey Campbell and a host of others would not have been able to "finish" Howard's rejecta and dejecta, and we would have been spared their interpretations, which are never as convincing as Howard's own work. Many private presses might not exist if Howard were alive to keep his manuscripts for himself. Scores of used, rare and antiquarian booksellers would have gaps on their shelves that are today occupied by "limited editions" of Howard's works. Robert E. Howard was only 30 when he killed himself. He was supposedly a gentle man who made foolish noises and who liked cats. He had spent his entire life in Southwest Texas, and when he learned that his mother had entered a terminal coma he shot himself. What a tragic waste. Requiescat in paces. Richard Bleiler ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 86 10:45 CDT From: Wilcox@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Generation ships In addition to the list posted earlier, consider: Cities in Flight - James Blish Rendezvous With Rama - A.C Clarke RingWorld books - Larry Niven RwR is stretching the "true" definition of generation ship a bit, Ringworld streches almost to the breaking point. A last thought to consider is the Wizard, Titan, and Demon series by Varley. Cities in Flight comes closest to the real thing. Craig Wilcox@HI-MULTICS ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 86 12:48:33 GMT From: mcnc!jeff@caip.rutgers.edu (Jeffrey Copeland) Subject: Re: A film of "Neuromancer"? reiher@ucla-cs.UUCP writes: >The LA Weekly reported one of the less likely recent Hollywood >projects. A couple of cabana boys got interested in "Buckeroo >Banzai". They tried to get David Begelman to sell them the sequel >rights, but Begelman wouldn't sell. One of them stumbled across >William Gibson's novel, "Neuromancer". They really liked it, and >managed to get the wife of a rich plastic surgeon (to whom one of >the two had become attached) to fork up $100,000 to buy the rights >to it. This shows principally that William Gibson is not stupid. According to LOCUS, Gibson got the entire $100,000 up front, with no percentage of the profits. I think he realizes that these guys are out to lunch, and having a lot of money in hand now is better than a promise of a percentage (possibly much) later. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 86 19:30:57 GMT From: wales@ucla-cs.ARPA (Rich Wales) Subject: Gil Gerard and Erin Gray (Buck Rogers TV stars) -- recent Subject: work? Does anyone know whether Gil Gerard (who played Buck Rogers in the TV series) and/or Erin Gray (who played Wilma Deering) have done anything else since that show? Some months ago, I remember having seen an hour-long documentary on the history of science fiction in movies and TV, hosted by Gil Gerard. But I think the date on said documentary was back in 1980 or something like that -- hardly very recent. Rich Wales UCLA Computer Science Department +1 213-825-5683 3531 Boelter Hall Los Angeles, California 90024 wales@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU ...!(ucbvax,ihnp4)!ucla-cs!wales ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 86 14:27:28 GMT From: jhunix!ins_apmj@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick M Juola) Subject: Re: The Private Life of Doctor Who david@comp.lancs.ac.uk (David Coffield) writes: >cheryl@batcomputer.UUCP (cheryl) writes: >>His grandaughter appeared in the very first episodes; she had >>been studying in England, when the Doctor picked up his grandaughter >>and two of her teachers. Is the grandaughter of a Time Lord also >>a Time Lord, or does it require some special training? > >I don't think Susan was his *real* grandaughter, >though, which of course means she wasn't a Time Lord ... Two points : a) Yes, Cheryl, it requires some special training (That's one reason Romana I was such an arrogant #$%^, she was a wunderkind at the Academy, while the Doctor barely passed after his second time through...) b) Even if Susan wasn't his real granddaughter, she might have been a Time Lord (Lady?) (Sorry, Cheryl, I'm a medievalist). She was obviously travelled with the Doctor, might she not have been a Gallifreyan he had picked up? Pat Juola Hopkins Maths {seismo!umcp-cs|ihnp4!whuxcc|allegra!hopkins}!jhunix!ins_apmj ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 86 21:59:54 GMT From: cheryl@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (cheryl) Subject: Re: The Private Life of Doctor Who david@comp.lancs.ac.uk (David Coffield) writes: >cheryl@batcomputer.UUCP (cheryl) writes: >>His grandaughter appeared in the very first episodes; she had >>been studying in England, when the Doctor picked up his grandaughter >>and two of her teachers. Is the grandaughter of a Time Lord also >>a Time Lord, or does it require some special training? > >I don't think Susan was his *real* grandaughter, >though, which of course means she wasn't a Time Lord ... What makes you think that? Didn't he SAY that she was his grandaughter? Did he ever SAY that he was "only kidding"? Then what reason do you have to doubt that Susan is not Gallifreyan or a Time Lord? What reason do you have to DOUBT Doctor Who? I suspect you are uneasy with the idea of an apparently 14 year old girl knowing more about space-time than you or any of your male buddies will ever know! Cheryl ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Jun 86 0907-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #150 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 16 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 150 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Card (3 msgs) & Herbert & Footfall, Films - Burning Chrome (4 msgs), Television - Where Are They Now?, Miscellaneous - Fantasy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Jun 86 14:45:43 GMT From: augusta!bs@caip.rutgers.edu (Burch Seymour) Subject: Book Review, Black widowers While not strictly a Science Fiction book, it seems reasonable to review the latest of Isaac Asimov's collections of Black Widower's stories _Banquets_of_the_Black_Widowers_, here due to the fame of the author in that field. For those who have not read any Black Widowers stories, they are light mysteries, set at the monthly banquet/meeting of the Black Widowers club. This club is loosely based on a real organization (The Trap Door Spiders, if anyone cares) to which Mr Asimov belongs. Each meeting is hosted by one of the 6 members who brings along an invited guest. Each guest always seems to have some sort of problem which serves as the basis of the mystery. The club members (Phd's all) take turns trying to extract clues and make guesses as to the solution. In the end the genteel waiter, Henry, always comes up with the correct solution. mild spoilers follow In this book, the gimmicks for the mysteries are as clever as always, but the writing seems overly terse. There is an assumption that the reader is already familiar with the characters. This is not an unreasonable thought as it is the 4th book of tales, and complete repitition of character descriptions in each story would be out of the question. Still it would have been nice to expand the first story in the book to flesh out the members a bit for the new readers, and help the memory of those of us who haven't read the series in several years. I am by nature a poor 'solver of mysteries', but I plead a good excuse in these cases. While the gimmicks are clever, they are often based on trivia of the highest order. For example in one story the puzzle hinged on knowledge of the date of the first performance of the Gilbert and Sullivan operetta Pinafore. Another required knowing the French word for beef steak. Two required knowing a famous sonnet and poem respectively. Not everyday stuff (at least for me). I did enjoy reading the book, but I would recommend it in short doses. Say one story before bed each night. Also I would suggest that readers new to the series start with an earlier book to get more insight into the characters and their personalities. Burch Seymour Gould C.S.D. ....mcnc!rti-sel!gould!bseymour ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 86 19:03:32 GMT From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) Subject: Ender's Game short story Does anyone know what issue of Analog contains this story? And whether back issues are still available? I thoroughly enjoyed the novel, and I would be interested to read the short story version for comparison. Brian Yamauchi Carnegie-Mellon University Computer Science Department ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu BITNET: q110by04@cmccvc DECNET: by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 86 18:04:53 GMT From: tekirl!donch@caip.rutgers.edu (Don Chitwood) Subject: Re: ENDER'S GAME by Orson Scott Card Regarding the virtue of strategy and genius in warfare, Chuck Yeage's book YEAGER, deals with this issue. As he says, fighter pilots live to dogfight. It is their joy and obsession. Chuck recounts at least one experience where he was dogfighting against another plane that had a marked technical superiority, i.e. speed, maneuverability, and so forth. Yet, he was able to "wax the tail" of the other plane time after time. He was flying against some of the best pilots, too. His point, and well made, was that it was the PILOT who made the difference, not the plane. Better skills and ability to creatively strategize on the fly (no pun intended) gave him the winning edge. To me, that was the whole thesis behind Ender's life. I enjoyed Ender's Game largely because it was so humanly written. It is a story about feelings and emotions, family and friends, loyalties and personal values. Very well done. Don Chitwood Tek Labs Tektronix, Inc. ------------------------------ Date: 12-Jun-1986 2247 From: redford%52584.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (John Redford) Subject: morality in "Ender's Game" ** spoiler warning ** I too got wrapped up in the book. Here was a classic means versus ends story: tormenting a small child for the greater good of the species. They turned this kid into a monster in order to make a strategist out of him. What on earth was going to happen to Ender once they had wrung him dry? And it turns out that .... nothing happens. He feels bad about killing an alien. Everyone slaps him on the back and then goes home. The alien forgives him. The sadistic trainer is forgiven. Even his psychopathic brother reforms. So Card comes down on the ends side of the issue. It was fine to do all these horrible things to all these children because everything did turn out all right in the end. Considering the strong moral current running under the story, I was surprised and disappointed. Evil actions should have evil consequences. The act of warping Ender into an Alexander should have had some moral effect on the men and soceity who did it to him, but didn't seem to. These people have unleashed a whole tribe of young military geniuses on the world, and nothing comes of it. Now, it could be that this kind of crime would not in fact have any consequences on its perpetrators. Then the author is taking the stand that morality is irrelevant, that there is no justice. That's a valid theme for a story, but doesn't seem to be what's used here. Card just seems to forget about the whole issue after Ender finishes the game. Ender feels a need to atone for what he's done, but no one else atones for what they did to him. Maybe that's where the original short story stopped and the padding to fill it out to novel length was inserted. It was a disappointing ending to a fine novel overall. John Redford ------------------------------ Date: 12-Jun-1986 1042 From: kevin%logic.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Kevin LaRue -- The Earth makes From: one resolution every 24 hours.) Subject: Re: Herbert's Jorj X. McKie From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-Multics.ARPA > I keep seeing references to The Dosadi Experiment as a sequel to > Whipping Star. Not So. TDE was written first and serialized. I My copy of ``Whipping Star'' is copyrighted 1969; my copy of ``The Dosadi Experiment'' is copyrigted 1977; my copies of the May - June 1977 issues of ``Galaxy'' contains the serialization of ``The Dosadi Experiment.'' ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 86 17:40:05 GMT From: petrus!purtill@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Purtill) Subject: Re: accuracy in FOOTFALL cjh@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) writes: >[summary: in Footfall, Washington DC is described incorrectly] They also botched the description of Bellingham (WA) (the place that was destroyed by the orion) and I know that at least Niven had visted Bellingham before the book was writen since I met him there. There certainly wasn't any evidence of that visit in the book, tho. > they would have been better off fuzzing details rather than > getting them specifically wrong. Definitely. As if blowing up the city wasn't bad enough.... mark bellcore 2H-307 435 morristown nj 07960 purtill @ bellcore.arpa (201) 829-5127 ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 86 19:41:32 GMT From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) Subject: Re: A film of "Neuromancer"? (really Burning Chrome) But.....but.....there is no 77-year-old-woman in Burning Chrome! In fact there is noone over 30 that I can remember. Chrome was supposed to have a genetic defect that made her appear to be *young*, preadolescent, I believe, even though I think she was in her 20s. (I don't have the book with me here at work.) Maybe they will reverse the defect..... Also, Burning Chrome was supposed to take place in the U.S., I think. Brian Yamauchi Carnegie-Mellon University Computer Science Department ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu BITNET: q110by04@cmccvc DECNET: by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 86 23:43:49 GMT From: reed!soren@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: A film of "Neuromancer"? On the subject of Burning Chrome, I've been looking for it for a while without success. Does it exist? In paperback? Any good? Thank You Soren Petersen ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 86 08:34:10 GMT From: rtech!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Bulger) Subject: Re: A film of "Neuromancer"? In Marilyn Beck's column of June 9, she has an item on Bette Davis starring as the "villianess" of a new science-fiction film named "Burning Chrome", directed by Matty Simmons, who has directed several of the National Lampoon's movies. The film is being produced by Leonard Mogel and Nick Cowan, who also produced "Heavy Metal". (A cinema classic there - could these be the cabana boys?) "Burning Chrome" is the title of a short novel by William Gibson. Could this be a related project? ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 86 18:53:02 GMT From: sadoyama@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Eric J Sadoyama) Subject: Re: A film of "Neuromancer"? soren@reed.UUCP (Soren Petersen) writes: >On the subject of Burning Chrome, I've been looking for it for a >while without success. Does it exist? In paperback? Any good? Burning Chrome is only available in hardback, from Arbor House at the present time. It should be out in paperback sometime next year (I hope!). Eric J Sadoyama 2033 Haste St. #107 Berkeley CA 94704 USA (415) 548-1711 sadoyama@pavepaws.BERKELEY.EDU or {backbone}!ucbvax!pavepaws!sadoyama ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 86 23:56:20 GMT From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone) Subject: Re: Gil Gerard and Erin Gray (Buck Rogers TV stars) -- recent Subject: work? Erin Gray was one of the stars of the recently cancelled Silver Spoons. That show came on the air right after Buck was cancelled. Gil Gerard had done some specials, but with wife Connie Selleca having a steady job on Hotel, he hasn't had to do much. Phil ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 86 11:16:51 PDT (Wednesday) Subject: Re: Lower Class Readership (Was Vance) From: Caro.osbunorth@Xerox.COM Cc: ESG7%DFVLROP1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU, Cc: lah@MIRO.BERKELEY.EDU, Tallan.osbunorth@Xerox.COM, Cc: JEF@LBL-RTSG.Arpa, Cc: Marshall.osbunorth@Xerox.COM >From: ESG7%DFVLROP1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU >Also the work is mainly a farce, and satirizes the concepts of >fantasy, which to my mind justifies the use of this literary form. >I am of the opinion that "pure fantasy" has had a generally >negative effect on SF. Pure fantasy has brought in a lower class >of readership and has unfortunately provided an economic incentive >for master authors like Vance, Silverberg and others to write >fantasy rather than SF. J.R.R. Tolkien is the only pure fantasy >author who's works seem to have been a real benefit to SF. ... and later in the same message ... >Perry A. Caro's views on Vance closely parallels my own. Yipes! Although our tastes for Jack Vance may be simpatico, our opinions about fantasy (indeed, fiction in general) could not be more divergent! I love fantasy ... does that mean I'm a lower class of reader??? Hell, some folks have suggested, with good reason, that SF is a special case of fantasy! Think of what that means to your argument. There is the slightest chance that you made the statements above more to engender an outcry than to express your actual opinion. Either possibility has the same result ... Ok, ok, no semantic quibbles here. By "pure fantasy" I suppose you mean anything that isn't SF -- like "high fantasy" (Lord Of The Rings, Chronicles of Prydain, Earthsea Trilogy, etc.) plus "sword & sorcery" (Conan, Moorcock's Eternal Champion -- Elric/Hawkmoon/Runestaff, etc.) plus unclassifiable fiction ("The Last Unicorn", Cthulhu Mythos, Fafhrd & Gray Mouser, etc.). On second thought, it doesn't really matter WHAT you mean by "pure fantasy". Genre bigotry, of whatever flavor, does nothing to further the art & science of entertainment and learning. When we throw off the shackles of categorization, pigeon-holing, and prejudice, then maybe we can all share in the wonders and adventures that fiction can provide for us. The more we close our minds to the diversity of fiction, the more we impoverish our experience. To fight the natural tendency toward genre bigotry, I like to keep the following in mind: - All genres have works both meritorious AND vomitus, and everything in between. No one genre has a monopoly on quality. - No genre is intrinsically good or bad -- only individual works can be judged for quality. - From the writer's point of view, she may write SF, or fantasy, or mystery, but ultimately her goal is to write good FICTION. (And good may mean "marketable") [non-fiction is another story.] - To me, every book is good until proven otherwise. I don't reject a book because of its cover or what part of the bookstore I find it in. I try to IGNORE the labels pasted on a book -- especially back blurbs which I habitually refuse to read. The only thing that counts are the WORDS written by the author. So, Mr. Allen, I am compelled to say that I disagree with your belief that "Pure fantasy has brought in a lower class of readership". Please don't take this personally, but I find that to be a laughable idea! Even more preposterous is the notion that one genre can have a "generally negative effect" on another, in terms of quality. Economically speaking, you might THANK sword & sorcery for reviving the floundering paperback industry back in the late seventies (oh, and a nod goes to George Lucas and Star Wars, of course). And what is this about "His [Tolkien's] books were a labor of love and scholarship and not a simple desire to rake in cash from simpletons?" So now I'm a simpleton, just because I bought and enjoyed "The Lover Of Lord Eithras?" So the author is nothing but a money hungry hack whose only desire is bilking poor, innocent, well-meaning but naive readers? And talk about bilking the public -- what about all these posthumous Tolkien books? Tolkien's made more money after dying than any other author I know, except maybe Shakespeare :-) Hah! It doesn't bother me one bit that authors write books to suit popular tastes. If sword & sorcery is the in thing, sword & sorcery is what publishers will buy. Authors need bread too! To think that an author is a traitor to her art just because she writes something "commercial" is unfair. Maybe she needs to sell five "commercial" books this year to support her family well enough so that she can write her ultimate masterpiece next year! Again, judge each book on its own merits, regardless of what you think the author's motives were. Besides, who is to say that "Lyonnesse" or "Lord Valentine's Castle" [I assume this is the "fantasy" work that you imply Silverberg is copping out with] were written just to cash in? I hope this is all taken in the spirit it was written in ... not as a personal attack, but as a deeply felt objection to several statements that I feel are fundamentally flawed. I'm still interested in a Vance sub-group discussion. Do you want to organize it? Oh yes, and I disagree that Vance is satirizing fantasy in "Rhialto", so much as he is satirizing the more negative aspects of humanity (greed, pride, ego, etc.). Perry A. Caro Caro.osbunorth@Xerox.com ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Jun 86 0929-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #151 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 16 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 151 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Jun 86 15:26:28 GMT From: sadoyama@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Eric J Sadoyama) Subject: Re: The One Ring milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU (Alastair Milne) writes: >3) Sauron moves to seduce the other free races of Middle Earth. He >forges the Seven, to be given to the 7 houses of Dwarves, and the >Nine, to be given to 9 Black Numenorean kings who serve him. These >Rings are to be slaves to the One, and turn their wearers into no >more than shadows of Sauron's own will. Umm. I don't think ALL of the Nazgul were Black Numenoreans, just some of them. Sorry for no references, but I seem to remember either The Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales making this point. >The Seven fail. Though they make the Dwarves more covetous, more >lustful for gold, they in no way make them susceptible to >domination. If anything, they become more secretive, and guard >their hoards more jealously. The failure earns the Dwarves >Sauron's particular hatred. Enraged, he exerts his power to draw >the Rings back to him. Though he is not successful, one or another >misfortune strikes all the wearers, until the Seven are all lost to >the Dwarves. (I believe the last was taken from Thrain in Dol >Guldur, where Gandalf found him raving, only a century or so before >Bilbo's first adventure.) If the Ring of the House of Durin, which was also the first of the Seven to be forged, was eventually retrieved by being taken from Thrain, I wouldn't call Sauron's efforts a *total* un-success. :) Eric J Sadoyama 2033 Haste St. #107 Berkeley CA 94704 USA (415) 548-1711 sadoyama@pavepaws.BERKELEY.EDU or {backbone}!ucbvax!pavepaws!sadoyama ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 86 02:05:27 GMT From: masscomp!carlton@caip.rutgers.edu (Carlton Hommel) Subject: The Elements in Tolkein's World While better writers than I have discussed the ultimate fate of the Silmarils, no one has brought up other 'elemental' influences in the Tolkein mythos. A close reading of "The Valaquenta" or Account of the Vala shows that there is one Valar for each element: Air: Manwe Lord of the Breath of Arda Water:Ulmo Lord of Waters Earth:Aule Lord of All Substances Now, it is stated that before his fall, Melkor was the strongest Valar, even above Manwe. Also, when he fell, he took with him many of the Valaraukar, or fire-related Maia. (We know that Maia do align themselves with certain elements, witness Osse, Master of Shallows) Therefore, we can conclude Fire: Melkor Lord of Fire and (later) Darkness Carl Hommel {allegra, bellcore, cbosgd, decvax, gatech, ihnp4, seismo, tektronix}!masscomp!carlton ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 86 01:39:53 GMT From: ulowell!dobro@caip.rutgers.edu (Chet Dobro) Subject: Re: Of rings New topic on the subject of Rings: Just a reminder - remember the words of the verse: Three rings for the Elven Kings under the sky, Seven for the Dwarf Lords in their halls of stone, Nine for the mortal men, doomed to die, One for the Dark lord, on his dark throne. One Ring to rule THEM all, on ring to find THEM, One ring to bring THEM all, and in the darkness bind THEM. Pardon the emphasis in the second stanza, but that is my point. Doesn't it seem to imply that instead of twenty (7+3+9+1) rings, there are 21?! And that the 'Ruling Ring' was crafted to rule the other 20, including one weilded by sauron? (another one.) Silly thought, but... Comment...? Phone: (617) 937-0551 USMail: P.O.Box 8524 Lowell, Ma. 01853 E-Mail: ...!decvax!wanginst!ulowell!dobro ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 86 20:08:49 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: The One Ring milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes: >1. That one bit of verse in 2 lines says it all about the Ring. > The Ring's power was domination of others, in accord with the > user's stature. That was what Sauron wanted it for, that was > why he forged it: to capture and dominate all the races of > Middle Earth. But it was a trap: as you used it to dominate, it > was dominating and corrupting you, until eventually you would be > turned into a little Dark Lord yourself, and thus did Sauron try > to insure his succession, even if his enemies should finally > destroy him. An excellent analysis. This is indeed how the One Ring appears to work in LOTR! >2. The Elven Rings were not weapons at all. They were created > to help the Elves and their friends do what they most wanted: > build and learn. Elrond explained, to Gloin I think, that they > were at work; but the manner of their function was subtle, and > not to be discussed, partly, I believe, because it was essential > that they be hidden from Sauron. Close, but the Three had one more purpose, *preservation* of things the bearer cared about. This is in fact useful as a srot of weapon. Also knowledge itself is a weapon, which is another principle purpose of the Three. The maintenance of Lorien against outside forces, and even the ravages of time, was based on the power of the Ring of Adamant. Thus it was a powerful weapon indeed, keeping Orcs out and preventing decay over a large area. It also my opinion that much of Elrond's wisdom came through his Ring of Power, and he was a major leader and bulwark against evil in the north of Middle Earth. It is an open question just how much of Gandalf's power over flame came from the knowledge and support given by the Ring of Fire. But if it did indeed help him in this way, it was part or what he used against the Balrog. > 3. The Ring did gain power as it approached the place of its > forging in Orodruin (not, begging your pardon, Oridruin). > "Return of the King" says so explicitly. However, I see no > actual evidence that its power increased as the Fellowship > moved through Eriador, even though Frodo had been weakened by > his knife wound (he never entirely recovered from it). It did > not appear to increase until it was actually back in Mordor, > where it became an excruciating burden. It is hard to tell, it was not until Lorien that Frodo truly became aware of the power of the Ring except theoretically. Thus it would be hard to tell just how much it was increasing in power. > However, it seems to me that in Lorien, within less than a > kilometre of Galadriel, its power must have been very > circumscribed, just as the power of Galadriel's Phial was > diminished inside Orodruin. This may well be true. In that case Frodo's perception of Galadriel's Ring and her secret desires was the first sign of the increase in the power of the One Ring, since he managed to do so in *spite* of the power of Galadriel and the supression of other powers! >One of the few tactical advantages the Elves had over Sauron was >Galadriel's power, which could discern his mind even while it >concealed those of the Elves from him. And where did this power come from? I say it came from her Ring! >Following that: my brother gave me for Christmas "The Lays of >Beleriand", which tell many of the great stories of Beleriand in >epic poems. Those who delight in Tolkien's handling of epic poetry >will love this. Like Unfinished Tales, though, it is culled from >Tolkien Sr's notes, and as Christopher works back through them, >they get more and more incomplete, with less development of, and >more conflict between, the ideas. Samples are included of notes, >criticisms, and suggestions from, among others, C. S. Lewis; so, to >a degree, this book is moving back beyond Tolkien's great history >into the making of that history. The material included here is, however, much better than that included in the other two volumes of "The Lost Tales". Tolkien had, by the time of the material here, finally developed a very powerful writing style. I found the poetry very gripping and readable. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 86 17:29:46 GMT From: sadoyama@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Eric J Sadoyama) Subject: Re: The Elements in Tolkien's World carlton@masscomp.UUCP (Carlton Hommel) writes: > A close reading of "The Valaquenta" or Account of the Vala shows >that there is one Valar for each element: > Air: Manwe Lord of the Breath of Arda > Water: Ulmo Lord of Waters > Earth: Aule Lord of All Substances >Now, it is stated that before his fall, Melkor was the strongest >Valar, even above Manwe. Also, when he fell, he took with him many >of the Valaraukar, or fire-related Maia. (We know that Maia do >align themselves with certain elements, witness Osse, Master of >Shallows) > >Therefore, we can conclude > Fire: Melkor Lord of Fire and (later) Darkness Yes, certainly there is a great tendency to say Melkor == Lucifer, but what about the freezing cold that was associated with Melkor in his stronghold in the North (name, someone?)? Melkor seems to be master of both fire *and* ice. Another support for this is in the Silmarillion, where during the Creation of Ea, Melkor is busy undoing many of the works of the other Valar. Manwe (?) is speaking to Ulmo, and points out to him that Melkor's fires have caused Ulmo's water to form clouds and the rainbow, and that Melkor's *cold* has created the snowflake. Eric J Sadoyama 2033 Haste St. #107 Berkeley CA 94704 USA (415) 548-1711 sadoyama@pavepaws.BERKELEY.EDU or {backbone}!ucbvax!pavepaws!sadoyama ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 86 17:58:00 GMT From: convex!ayers@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Orphaned Response >I recently re-read the hobbit and the trilogy and something strange >occurred to me. When he possessed the ring, one of the "powers" >Frodo got was the ability to see rings worn by other people. This >is demonstrated when Frodo was in LothLorien, and could tell quite >easily that the Lady Galadrial had one of the 3 elf rings... >...*** Why didn't Frodo see the Ring of Fire on Gandalf's finger? >*** Re-read it again: at the end, when Frodo mets Gandalf to go on the ship, he states that Gandalf was wearing the third ring "...openly, for the first time..." Nuff said. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 86 22:50:14 -0800 From: Alastair Milne Subject: Re: Of rings vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) writes: >. . . Frodo seemed to be able to use the chief powers of the ring >all along: the invisiblity, the moving to the wraiths plane, and >the preservation effects. I know Sauron would have derived other >powers, but I thought there was a big point made about how >ultimately only Sauron could use the ring. These were not effects that a user could deliberately select to his advantage, but inescapable side effects of using the Ring. Certainly the preservation (I prefer Bilbo's word, "stretching") and being visible on the wraiths' plane were things Frodo would have avoided if possible. And how about the vicious possessiveness, that made him want to strike both Bilbo and Sam? "Give unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar"? I think I know the point you mean, which is that only one of enormous stature could realise the full power of the Ring. Sauron was one such, but not the only one. Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel also had adequate stature, and that is what so frightened Gandalf when Frodo offered him the Ring. Using it to achieve his desire, the overthrow of Sauron, he would himself have become the next Sauron, and Middle Earth would have been enslaved under him. Likewise if Galadriel had taken it: "All shall love me and Despair!" But this wasn't a matter of learning how to use the Ring. As for the idea of a "rapport", I think if anything it was the Ring developing it, not the wearer: sinking its hooks into him. After all, Bilbo was using it to considerable advantage only a minute or so after first picking it up. >Brandon Allbery responds: >The PRIMARY use, that you name above, is (all) related to moving >the wearer into the wraiths' plane. This is its INTENDED effect on >lesser wearers. Which is how Nazgul came about in the first place. I still maintain that the primary use of the One was to convey the power of dominion and enslavement to its wearer. Invisibility, a stretched lifespan, and greater contact with the wraiths' world were, as far as I can see from Gandalf's explanations, side effects a mortal would encounter. The only effect Sauron seems actually to have intended on lesser users is that they be corrupted into lesser Dark Lords themselves, perhaps a sort of booby trap for his enemies. The Nazgul were created by the Nine, not the One. The only connection is that, like all Rings except the Three, the Nine were answered to the One. The Black Numenorean kings who became the Nazgul never touched the One: it never left Sauron's hand until Isildur cut it off, at which point the Nazgul had already been long in existence. Brandon Allbery continues: >Other abilities, which Frodo was NOT strong wnough to use, included >the ability to read minds (especially the minds of other >Ring-wielders, INCLUDING Sauron. Re-read the sequence where Frodo >discovers that Galadriel is wearing the Elven-ring. I will recheck this, but what I remember is that knowing the minds of others was part of the Ring's power of domination, to which Frodo's will was naturally not trained. I also remember Galadriel's saying that she was aware of all of Sauron's mind that had to do with Elves, whereas she was able to obscure her own from him. But I remember nothing about the Ring's conveying the ability to see into his mind. To feel his presence, yes -- more on that below -- but to see his mind, no. But I will recheck. Brandon Allbery continues: >But ANY use by any other than Suaron would corrupt the user into a >servant of Sauron. This is because the power of the ring is in >fact Sauron's own mind, which is why casting the Ring into Orodruin >destroyed Sauron. Substitute the word *power* for *mind*, and I agree. It seems clear, though, that no part of Sauron's awareness was in the Ring -- if it had been, he would hardly have needed to have the Nazgul scouring half Middle Earth for it. >>Did moving the ring toward Mt. Doom make it more powerful, or just >>make Sauron aware of it once it was there and in use? > >Both. Being closer to its source of power (Sauron), it became more >powerful and Sauron became more aware of it (the drain on his own >mind?). EXCUSE ME??? Sauron was NOT aware of its approach at all -- if he had been, Frodo and Sam's journey into Mordor would have been terminally interrupted very quickly. The Ring certainly seemed to become more aware, and became an increasing torment to Frodo, mind as well as body. Furthermore, it heightened horribly Frodo's awareness of Sauron, and the fact that Sauron was searching as hard as he could for the Ring, calling it to him. He felt utterly naked and exposed, often raising his hand as if to conceal himself. But it was not until Frodo's will finally yielded to the Ring's pressure at the Cracks themselves that Sauron at last knew where the Ring was and what had been done, and his own terrible mistakes. His entire existence teetered on a knife's edge, whereas, had he been aware of the Ring's entry into Mordor, he would have seized it when it was still leagues from Orodruin. Again, I see no indication that the Ring touched Sauron's mind at all -- he probably wished it did. What I do see is that whenever Frodo put it on (at least, when past Lorien), it seemed to start to respond to Sauron's call to it -- in fact, on Amon Hen, it very nearly had the opportunity to give him away altogether. But here, as above, it seems that the Ring was aware of Sauron, but not the reverse. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Jun 86 0939-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #152 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 16 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 152 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (6 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Jun 86 20:26:21 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Tolkien's Languages >From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU >here are two translations of his poem: > > Ash nazg durbatuluk, ash nazg gimbatul, > ash nazg thratuluk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul! > >Or, in Common; > > One Ring to rule them all, one Ring to find them, > one Ring to bring them all an in the darkness bind them > (In the land of Mordor where the shadows lie.) > > Acutually, anything but a literal, word for word, translation >needs no knowledge of Quenya, but rather a pattern-finding ability >of the simplest form, kind of like the way one solves those >cryptograms in the newspaper. You are correct, as have been several other people. Yes, it was *very* easy and pattern matching seems to have been the main method of recognition. >As to the meaning of Sarima, well I have no guess on that (not >being a linguist of any sort). Nobody has quite gotten this one yet. Several have come close though, in recognising the root as found in the Sindarin "Sarn Gebir" and the Quenya "Elessar". The major difficulty has been realizing that "-ima" is a *suffix*, not an independent root. It is in fact the standard means of deriving an adjective from other words. For example "ancalima" = 'brightest, greatly bright', from "Caale" = 'brilliance, glow, sheen'. other examples can be found among the Quenya month names, which are all plural adjectives in form(or they are all abstract nouns derived from adjectives, which is the same thing in Quenya). Thus the word "sarima" is the adjectival form of "sar(e)" = 'stone, pebble, rock'. Translated back into English this becomes 'stoney' or 'rocky'. This becomes significant when you realize that the Old English adjective is "stanlig", or, with modernized spelling, "stanley". > But, perhaps someone can tell me if my guess about the following >phrase, pseudo-invented by my non-linguistic self, translates back >properly into common: > > Rethin, Guladan! I cannot tell(right now) about the first word, but the second seems to come out something like "Magician" or "Wiseman", depending on which sense of "Guul" you mean. I may try to get back to you later with a better guess, since I do not have my Sindarin vocabulary here. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 86 23:10:18 -0800 From: Alastair Milne Subject: Re: Gandalf and Narya Nevertheless -- >When Gandalf confronts the Balrog he names himself as ``wielder of >the Secret Flame''. At the time I took it as just a password of >wizardry of some kind... when I discovered that Gandalf was >wearing Narya, the Ring of Fire, a great light dawned. But why did >Gandalf virtually give the game away to the Balrog -- a (former) >lieutenant of Melkor, even?! You would expect that Melkor's >followers (the Balrog of Moria and Sauron) would have kept in >touch... Sorry, I'm not following you. What has one of the Three, forged in Eriador in the Second Age, to do with "the Secret Flame, ... the Fire of Anor", which, whatever it is, is presumably an artifact of the Valar? I don't see what connection it could have had with Melkor or any of his servants. I don't see, either, what "game" Gandalf was giving away. The light which dawned for you is still below my horizon. It seemed to me he was threatening the Balrog with his credentials as a power to be reckoned with. Even if the Balrog had realised that Narya was in front of it, and realised how very pleased Sauron would be to know that, how much worse could that have made Gandalf's situation than it already was? Also, my impression was that Sauron and that Balrog had just about forgotten each other -- if Sauron in fact ever knew that a Balrog had escaped the ruin of Beleriand. So, pardon me if I'm being dim, which happens a lot, but I don't see what observation you're making here. Alastair Milne P.S. The Balrog couldn't have kept in touch with anything for a very long time. It was asleep, or deeper, under the mountains, and wasn't awakened until the Dwarves bored too deeply in their lust for mithril; and that happened when Khazad-dum was at its height -- though I admit the relative date of that escapes me. ------------------------------ Date: Thu 12 Jun 86 01:17:14-PDT From: Mark Crispin Subject: more Ringlore The rings were the creation of a combination of both Sauron's and Noldorian lore. At this time, Sauron wasn't totally evil; he had repented of his deeds as a servant of Morgoth at the end of the First Age, but declined to return to Valinor to be judged. He was obviously terrified by the power of the Valar against Morgoth (remember, Melkor/Morgoth was the most powerful Vala and it took the combined power of all the other Valar to defeat him). He was also alarmed by the growing power of the Numenoreans. Seeking essentially hegemony in Middle-Earth with the apparent disinterest of the Valar in Middle-Earth's future, he approached the Elves under the guise of "the Lord of Gifts" (I forget the Elvish name). Gil- Galad didn't trust him and refused to deal with him, but the Noldor in Eregion were more receptive. After all, Sauron was originally a Maia of Aule, and that's the sort of person who would catch the Noldors' attention even if they should have realized that the "Lord of Gifts" rather suddenly appeared and Sauron (Morgoth's #1 servant) suddenly disappeared. Together, the Noldor and Sauron forged the lesser rings which do not play much of a role in history. Then they embarked upon the forging of the Great Rings. First the Nine, then the Seven were forged. Sauron assisted in the forging of all these rings, and distributed all of them with the exception of the chief of the Seven, which was given to Durin III by Celebrimbor himself. Sauron still had a hand in its making. In secret Celebrimbor, who had learned all of Sauron's ringlore, forged the Three. These were given by him to Galadriel (Nenya), Gil-Galad (Vilya), and the chief of the Grey Havens (Narya) whose name escapes me right now. At about the same time, Sauron, who had picked up all of Celebrimbor's ringlore, forges the One. He very definitely wants to run everything at this point, and takes the easy path. This includes use of the Black Speech, orcs, what have you. It's sort of like falling for the Dark Side of the Force. Sauron gives his ring most of his native power, but a lot more. Sauron's ring is totally evil (more evil than he was when he created it) and the ring corrupts Sauron totally over the years. This is made quite clear in the history of the Second Age. Sauron is far more corrupt at the end of the Second Age than he was at the forging of the rings, and more so in the Third Age. The fact that he was bad-intentioned and powerful to begin with let him do a lot more with the ring than any of the other possessors did; the ring gave him power according to his stature. But the ring corrupted him as it corrupted every other possessor. The possessors of the Nine fell rather quickly; the Nazgul appear after only a couple of hundred years. Most of the men who received the Nine were arrogant, proud kings, and the chief of these was apparently a bad guy in life. Some of them apparently were good men to begin with and it took them a little bit longer to succumb. The dwarves did not fall; they decided when they wished to die and surrendered their rings to their heirs at that time. The major effect of the Seven was to make them even more "dwarvish" in their behavior than they were. Through various means, Sauron got back three or four of the Seven, and the rest were destroyed by dragons. The ring of the House of Durin was the last to remain free. In a letter to me in 1969 or thereabouts, Tolkien states that Sauron had physical possession of the Nine. Therefore, apparently the Nazgul did not wear their rings, which was why the chief of the Nine was not recovered when the leader of the Nazgul was slain by Eowyn in the siege of Minas Tirith. Many people have wondered about this and whether Aragorn couldn't have used this ring to good purposes, since either the One would be recovered by Sauron and all would be lost anyway, or the One would be destroyed, the Nine would perish, and Aragorn wouldn't have had it long enough to be permanently damaged no matter how evil it was. Certainly Aragorn and Gandalf wouldn't have left the chief of the Nine lying in the fields of the Pelennor for any random to pick up, but no mention is made of it. I feel we have to take Tolkien at his (rather terse) word to me that Sauron wore the Nine himself. I realize that one would think that the Nazgul couldn't survive without wearing the Nine, but that's a minor plot hole in an otherwise very good story. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 86 19:07:16 GMT From: ulowell!rickheit@caip.rutgers.edu (Erich W Rickheit) Subject: Re: Of rings dobro@ulowell.UUCP (Chet Dobro) writes: >Doesn't it seem to imply that instead of twenty (7+3+9+1) rings, >there are 21?! >And that the 'Ruling Ring' was crafted to rule the other 20, >including one weilded by sauron? (another one.) Chet, once again you're failing to pay attention, and as a result, are failing to make sense. Although I realize you have not yet passed Poetry this semester, it should be clear that 'One ring to rule them all' is asscociated with the 'One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne' If not, at least consider your implications. The Rings of Power were of Elven craftsmanship. True, Sauron guided them in their making, but he had neither the skill nor subtlety to create magic. In general, villians in Tolkien do not have the capability for original creative thought, or, if they do, it is infinitely inferior to good's. In _The_Silmarillion_, the only actually creative thing Melkor does is to introduce a discord in the theme of Illuvitar. No more than a discord. He does not create Orcs, but breeds them by perverting captured Elves. He does not create a Balrog, but twists a lesser Maia to his cause. Ditto Sauron. In general, Morgoth only destroys, undoes, or uses; not create. Back to my point: Sauron, being less than Morgoth, could not actually create an original Ring. He could examine the Elves' work, (in the lesser rings of power) urge them to greater works, (the Three) enlist their aid for other works (the Seven and the Nine) and use the principle for his own work (the One) It was only because Sauron was mightier than the Elves in the first place that the One could control the other Rings. Who, then, could have created Gryphon's hypothetical Overlord Ring? Morgoth? No; at that point in Middle Earth's history Morgoth was well chained by the Valar, and was incapable of meddling with much of anything. The Valar? No; Sauron would have been able to tell if another Power was weilding power over his Ring; remember, Sauron with his Ring was nigh omniscient and close to unbeatable. He would not have stood for a meddler. The same argument applies to a human, Elven, Dwarven, etc. agency. Illuvitar? No; Eru never meddled in the affairs of Middle-Earth once it was fully made. Try again, Chet. ...!decvax!wanginst!ulowell!rickheit USnail: Erich Rickheit 85 Gershom Ave, #2 Lowell, MA 01854 (617) 827-5510 ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 12 Jun 1986 07:17:01-PDT From: winalski%psw.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Paul S. Winalski) Subject: Tolkien, Rings of Power, etc. The Nine, the Seven, and the Three were all forged by the Elven smiths of Eregion. Sauron, under the assumed name of Annatar (Lord of Gifts), was directing their research into these arts. Sauron was still fair to look at and very persuasive. He tried to convince the Noldor remaining in Middle Earth that he was one of the Maiar of Aule, left behind in Middle Earth to help the Elves heal the hurts of the war with Morgoth. Galadriel, Gil-Galad, and Cirdan were skeptical and refused to treat with him, but he won over the smiths of Eregion, who let their lust for knowledge win out over their better judgement. Sauron was directly involved in the forging of the Nine and the Seven. The Three were made by Celebrimbor alone. It is important to note, however, that Sauron did NOT forge either the Seven or the Nine completely on his own. Also, although Sauron was not involved at all in the forging of the Three, some of the lore used in making those rings originated with Sauron, and thus he was able to make them subject to the One. The One Ring itself was forged by Sauron in Orodruin. By itself it doubtless had great power, but Sauron had to let the better part of his own power pass into the Ring in order that it might rule the other rings of power. Thus, the One Ring contained the majority of the life force that was once part of Sauron. Hence, when the One Ring was destroyed, most of Sauron's power was dissipated, and what remained was too weak to retain corporeal form. In re: Gandalf, "Servant of the Secret Fire" Gandalf refers to himself as a Servant of the Secret Fire during his fight with the Balrog. This is NOT a reference to Narya, the Red Ring. In the Silmarillion and the Unfinished Tales, the term "Secret Fire" is used for the essence of physical being that gives reality to thought. It lives with Illuvatar and is necessary for things to take physical form. In the Ainulindale, we have Illuvatar kindling the secret fire at the heart of the world, and the physical universe takes existence. Melkor sought in the Void for the secret fire so that he could call things into being. Thus, when Gandalf says that he is a Servant of the Secret Fire, he is telling the Balrog that he is one of the Ainur who is faithful to Illuvatar. Gandalf also says that he is the "Wielder of the Flame of Anor." It is less clear what this could be. Anor is the sun. The fire of the sun is from two sources: the Maia Arien (a spirit of flame), and the last fruit of Laurelin. It is hard to see how either of these would relate to something Gandalf is wielding. Perhaps the Flame of Anor is a reference to Narya. PSW ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 86 13:40:27 PDT From: Chris McMenomy Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #146 Brandon writes: >When Gandalf confronts the Balrog he names himself as ``wielder of >the Secret Flame''. At the time I took it as just a password of >wizardry of some kind... when I discovered that Gandalf was >wearing Narya, the Ring of Fire, a great light dawned. But why did >Gandalf virtually give the game away to the Balrog -- a (former) >lieutenant of Melkor, even?! You would expect that Melkor's >followers (the Balrog of Moria and Sauron) would have kept in >touch... Interpreting "the Secret Flame" to be a reference to Narya is the most obvious interpretation, but there is another possibility. In the creation sagas of the Elves (collected for humans in the Silmarillion), Morgoth goes off seeking "the Secret Flame" and can't find it, because it is with Illuvatar. If this is what Gandalf is refering to, then your problem disappears, because he is basically telling the Balrog that his power comes from Illuvatar. On the other hand, even if that is not what Gandalf meant (although personally I think it is), the Balrog has been sleeping since the end of the first age until within the last several dwarf generations. The Rings were formed before it awoke and drove the dwarves out of Moria. I'm not sure Sauron would have approached the Balrog--after all, he would most likely have considered him a rival rather than a potential ally [these are the bad guys, remember; they don't get together for old times sake but to increase their personal power]. Nor would the Balrog necessarily have paid any attention to rings and lore and the intellectual sorcery Sauron and Saruman and Gandalf are dealing with; it is presented in LotR as an elemental power; it doesn't wield flame, it is flame. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Jun 86 0838-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #153 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 17 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 153 Today's Topics: Books - Card (2 msgs) & Ford & Gibson (2 msgs) & Tolkien & Anthologies (2 msgs) & Some Questions, Films - Star Trek IV & Burning Chrome, Television - Doctor Who & Star Trek (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Jun 86 16:06:43 GMT From: moly@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Bruce F. Wong) Subject: Re: Ender's Game with possible spoiler (so read the book Subject: already!) crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) writes: >In any case, people who read all the way through will discover that >the Buggers were NOT fighting by the time Ender came along -- that >is one of the ironies of the book. (Spoiler) Actually the Buggers were still fighting when Ender came along. It was only after the first engagements that the Hive Queen got into his mind via ansible and saw that all was lost. Bruce F. Wong ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 86 20:11:42 GMT From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) Subject: Re: morality in "Ender's Game" * SPOILERS * ****** SPOILER WARNING ****** I think you missed the point (completely). First, I disagree that Ender's training was a completely immoral act. Sure the aliens turned out to be repentant, but how was Earth supposed to know that? The buggers attacked once without any provocation whatsoever and nearly overran Earth. Mankind would have lost were it not for the brilliance of Mazer Rackham. Every indication was that the aliens would trt again, and the Earth was counting on another military genius to protect them from the superior forces of the enemy. Certainly, Ender's training was cruel and unfair, but his trainer was not a sadist. He did what he felt was right to save the Earth, but he recognized and felt regret for what it was doing to Ender. >What on earth was going to happen to Ender once they had wrung him >dry? And it turns out that .... nothing happens. He feels bad >about killing an alien. Everyone slaps him on the back and then >goes home. It is more than that. Ender is torn with guilt for destroying an entire species. Not just "killing an alien", but committing genocide on a scale even Hitler never imagined (although basically in self-defense). >The alien forgives him. The alien forgives him for killing the aliens without knowing they were peaceful, and without even knowing that they were not a simulation, just as Ender forgave the aliens for killing humans without knowing that humans were sapient beings. >Even his psychopathic brother reforms. No, he doesn't. Peter takes over the world through a Machievellian network dominance scheme. He then rules the world as the Hegemon for many years. Finally, when he nears death, he wants Ender to tell his story, as his Speaker for the Dead. Peter realizes that he has done good and evil in his life, but he does not "reform", he just wants his story told honestly. >So Card comes down on the ends side of the issue. No, I think he recognizes that the situation is morally ambiguous. Consider this, would it be moral to murder one innocent civilian to prevent a global thermonuclear war? Brian Yamauchi Carnegie-Mellon University Computer Science Department ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu BITNET: q110by04@cmccvc DECNET: by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 86 16:30:23 GMT From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: John M. Ford I notice that no one has yet mentioned that Ford wrote a module for West End's role-playing game _Paranoia_. If memory serves me correctly, it's called "The Black Box Blues", and is appropriately manic in the style Paranoia players have come to know and fear. Jim Gardner University of Waterloo ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 86 14:32:59 GMT From: pete@stc.co.uk Subject: Count Zero, a mini-review I loved Burning Chrome, I liked Neuromancer. Why then do I feel disappointed by Count Zero? Well, let's look at the plus features first. William Gibson has his story-telling act more together this time. Neuromancer has a messy plot line; it reads like many stories welded together. In Count Zero the three main characters, Turner the merc, Marly the disgraced art dealer and Count Zero the beginner cyberpunk, each have their own stories which converge neatly at the end. There's plenty of atmosphere of the Blade Runner type, quite a lot of violence, very little sex and lots of trademarks. I read it straight through. In fact, just a slicker version of what we've seen already. I'm afraid that Gibson, from promising beginnings as a sort of Bester-Delany-Varley (plus his own ideas), is going to start turning out pot-boilers. Count Zero contains what I regard as the kiss of death in a novel - obvious script potential. You can see a Hollywood man going over the book, with its filmic intercuts between characters and plot lines, and thinking he's got a hot property here. It annoys me the same way that a key-change in a song does. What price volume #20 in the fabulous Sprawl saga - Slaves of Cyberspace? Or a Titan-Wizard-Demon style trilogy? I hope this doesn't happen. I hope that Gibson realises that he's mined this particular seam out and writes something new. But I shall approach the next novel with some scepticism. Peter Kendell ...!mcvax!ukc!stc!pete ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 86 19:52:51 GMT From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) Subject: Re: A film of "Neuromancer"? (really Burning Chrome Subject: Microreview) Burning Chrome is available from Arbor House in hardback only. This will run you about $15 for a relatively thin book. Buy it anyway. It is well worth the money. This a collection of all of Gibson's short fiction (i.e. everything except Neuromancer and Count Zero), and there is not a bad story in the bunch. In fact, the majority of the stories are some of the best short SF I have ever read. If you are a fan of William Gibson, run, do not walk, to the nearest bookstores and search for this book. If you are a fan of hard science SF, or a fan of literary (new wave) SF, or just a fan of good SF, this book is highly recommended. On a scale of -4 to +4, I give this a +4. Brian Yamauchi Carnegie-Mellon University Computer Science Department ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu BITNET: q110by04@cmccvc DECNET: by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 13 June 1986, 13:55:32 EDT From: NICHOLAS J SIMICICH Subject: Tolkien I'm asking this for someone else. Can anyone tell me if there is a Tolkien fan club or Tolkien society? Please post replies to me and, if I get any, I will summarize. Nick Simicich (NJS@IBM.COM) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 86 05:18:00 GMT From: jimb@ism780 Subject: Re: Anthologists review Another anthology edited by Martin Greenberg and Charles Waugh (with Isaac Asimov) is SHERLOCK HOLMES THROUGH TIME AND SPACE, published by Bluejay Books. The Thomas Kidd cover alone is worth the hardback price, though it's now out in paperback. Jim Brunet ihnp4/ima/ISM780 hplabs/hao/ico/ISM780 sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ISM780C/ISM780 ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 86 16:18:10 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com Subject: re: Anthologists review > From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA > Does anyone (Oh, Jerrrrry!) have a complete list of what these > gents [Martin H. Greenberg and Charles Waugh] have produced? Sorry, but they have worked on more anthologies than I would like to even think of, let alone list. They are the Roger Elwood of the 80's. Try looking them up in BOOKS IN PRINT. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 86 05:24:00 GMT From: bolotin@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU Subject: _Analog_ Questions I have a couple of _Analog_ questions that I hope someone can help me with. 1) There have been three stories (that I know of) by Ray Brown set in a universe tied together by matter transmitters (transmats). These stories revolve around the "Reformed Sufi" religion that has developed to help people deal with having their bodies ripped apart, the information sent across the galaxy, and a new body built at the other end. Problems of faith occur when the medical planet "Paracelsus" finds a way to store the patterns. The stories I know about are: "A Change of Employment" August 1982 "Looking for the Celestial Master" September 1982 "Identity Crisis" Mid-Sept. 1983 What I want to know is: have there been any other stories in this series published in _Analog_, or any other magazine? Are there any plans to collect these stories into a convinent book? 2) The story "Rails Across the Galaxy" by Andrew Offutt & Richard Lyon was serialized in _Analog_ from Aug. to Mid-Sept. 1982. I always thought that serialized stories were previews of "soon to be released" books, but as far as I know, "Rails..." was never issued in book form. Does anyone know if it ever will be? I put off reading it for a long time because I expected a book version to come out. If no such publication is intended, I'll dig out my magazines. Thanks, Russel Dalenberg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 86 15:35:41 PDT From: crash!pnet01!bnw@nosc.ARPA (Bruce N. Wheelock) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #139 >Heard an odd rumor - that a large ship whose home is Alameda CA (SF >Bay) has been hired for use in the making of ST IV. The aircraft carrier U.S.S. Enterprise (CVN-65) is in STIV. However, no filming was done aboard her, as she was in the Mediterranean and was not available. The aircraft carrier scenes that you will see in the film were done on U.S.S. Ranger (CV-61), based in San Diego. Leonard Nimoy, Walter Koenig, Nichelle Nichols, and crew were here a couple of months ago for filming. The critical scene on the carrier (you'll know it when you see it--no spoilers) was filmed on Ranger, not Enterprise. Bruce N. Wheelock crash!vista!pnet!pnet01!bnw@ucsd ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 86 17:53:15 GMT From: felix!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Richards) Subject: Re: A film of "Neuromancer"? yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) writes: >By the way, what is Showscan??? "Showscan" is film process that basically consists of shooting 70 mm (really 65) film at 60 frames per second, as opposed to the usual 24 FPS. There are some new problems associated with this, like camera noise. However, it improves many things. "Flicker", for example. I haven't seen it, but those who have describe a much more "flowing feeling" to the image. Of course, the apparent resolution jumps way up because the visible film grain is virtually eliminated. It is said that the overall effect gives one the feeling of looking through a window rather than watching a projection on a screen. A special "Showscan" theatre has been designed that mainly consists of a curved screen and much fewer seats for a given size auditorium. In commercial theaters, there are many bad seats. Ideally, the first row should be as far away from the screen as the screen is high, and the last row should be no more than three times the screen height away from the screen (or something like that). Also, the seats typically extend too far out to the sides. The only film I know of that has been produced so far is called "Tricks in the Parlor", or something like that. It's about a half hour long (necessarily short due to the high speed), and was primarily produced to sell the idea of a chain of "Showscan" theaters. Apparently it contains some pretty spectacular effects. If anyone in the L.A. area knows how one goes about seeing this, please let me know. Dave ------------------------------ Date: 12 June 1986 15:05:22 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson) Subject: Doctor Who >Susan, the Doctor's grandaughter, would make a far better Time Lord >than this TURKEY of a 6th Doctor. What kind of self-respecting >Gallifreyan would care to associate himself with that dim-witted >co-ed? O.K. so Dr. #6 really does need someone that stupid around >to make him look good. Doesn't help much, does it? C'mon, give the Sixth Doctor a break. He's only had one season, after all. Anyway, I think that this new Doctor is an improvement over the last one. The Fifth Doctor was (no offense to Mr. Davison) rather wimpy compared to his previous two selves. Remember the way he used to call himself "fool" and "imbecile" all the time? Well, I almost started to believe it when he blew his chance to eliminate Davros once and for all. He should have dealt with Davros the way the Sixth Doctor dealt with the Borad--quickly and cleanly. And for those who think that a woman should play the Doctor, why not consider having a show about Romana and K-9 (who knows what interesting stuff happened to them in E-space)? Carlo Samson U09862 @ uicvm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 86 18:34:23 EDT From: SHADOW%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Carlo Sampson's queries. To answer your questions: The last original Star Trek episode that was filmed and aired before the original T.V. series (the later animated series was another matter) was cancelled was called "Turnabout Intruder." The plot concerned the insane jealousy of Kirk's old rival and flame(?), Dr. Janice Lester. Dr. Lester was a romantic thorn from Kirk's past who lusted after the power associated with a starship command. However, one of the last remaining prejudices of the 23rd century meant that woman were not allowed to command Federation Starships. Determined to have Kirk's command, she attempted a mind-entity transfer using abandoned apparatuses (sp?) she found on Camus II. After murdering all but her co-conspirator/lover (Dr. Arthur Coleman) by sending her staff to where the celebium radiation shielding was weak (on Camus II), she sent out a distress signal to the Enterprise, to entrap Kirk. While Kirk and Dr. Lester were alone, she formed the mind-entity transfer: the mind of Janice Lester was now in the body of James Kirk, and vice versa. Kirk/Lester then kept Lester/Kirk unconscious as the landing party of Spock & McCoy returned. The rest of the episode goes on to show the inevitable ndeterioration of the mind-entity transfer, and the eventual demise of Dr. Lester. For a further detailed synopsis, I would suggest either looking at Bjo Trimbles "Star Trek Concordance", although since it is many years out of print, you might have trouble with that, OR, if that episode isn't on TV this week, why not check one of the James Blish adaptation in paperback. Finally, with regards to the movie, Star Trek IV is scheduled for a Christmas release. According to Nimoy, "this one should answer all questions posed in the previous movies." As quoted in STARLOG #106 (? I think that's the number) BITNET: SHADOW@UMass.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 1986 13:53:22 PDT From: Nancy I. Garman Subject: Star Trek quote request I'm looking for a specific Star Trek quote and hoping one of the readers of SF-LOVERS can help me. The quote is approximately "I'll keep that in mind, should I find myself in a similar circumstance". My fuzzy recollection of this particular episode: Captain Kirk is in trouble and uses a phrase (perhaps refering to Spock as a meddling half breed) to alert Spock to the danger. At the end of the episode, Spock tells Kirk the phrase worked, but doesn't approve of his choice of words. Kirk's response is the specific quote I'm looking for. Thanks in advance, Nancy ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Jun 86 0903-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #154 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 17 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 154 Today's Topics: Books - Card & Ellison & MacFarlane & Rucker & New Books from Avon & Generation Ships, Television - Gil Gerard, Miscellaneous - Tactics and Strategy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Jun 86 16:27:00 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com Subject: re: Ender's Game short story From: maps.cs.cmu.edu!yamauchi (Brian Yamauchi) > Does anyone know what issue of Analog contains this story? And > whether back issues are still available? I don't know if back issues are available from the publisher. At any rate, the issue in question is August 1977. It also appeared in Card's collection UNACCOMPANIED SONATA AND OTHER STORIES, which, though out of print, is most probably easier to find in a used-bookstore or in your local library. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 86 14:55:26 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: 'Repent, Harlequin...' Old Business, Part 2: From: (Michael Maisack) > Here's one for you,Jayembee where was 'Repent,Harlequin,said the > TickTockman published? Lessee... Magazine: GALAXY (December 1965) Collections: PAINGOD AND OTHER DELUSIONS [1965, 1975] ALONE AGAINST TOMORROW [1971] THE FANTASIES OF HARLAN ELLISON [1979] Anthologies: NEBULA AWARD STORIES [1966] (ed. Damon Knight) WORLD'S BEST SCIENCE FICTION: 1966 [1966] (ed. Donald A. Wollheim & Terry Carr) THE TENTH GALAXY READER [1967] [aka DOOR TO ANYWHERE] (ed. Frederik Pohl) THE HUGO WINNERS, VOLUME 2 [1971] (ed. Isaac Asimov) SCIENCE FICTION: THE FUTURE [1971] (ed. Dick Allen) ABOVE THE HUMAN LANDSCAPE [1972] (ed. Willis E. McNelly & Leon E. Stover) SPECULATIONS [1973] (ed. Thomas E. Sanders) TRANSFORMATIONS [1973] (ed. Daniel Roselle) ANOTHER TOMORROW [1974] (ed. Bernard C. Hollister) AS TOMORROW BECOMES TODAY [1974] (ed. Charles W. Sullivan) FANTASY: THE LITERATURE OF THE MARVELOUS [1974] (ed. Leo P. Kelley) POLITICAL SCIENCE FICTION [1974] (ed. Martin H. Greenberg & Patricia S. Warrick) TOMORROW, AND TOMORROW, AND TOMORROW... [1974] (ed. Bonnie L. Heintz, Frank Herbert, Donald A. Joos, and Jane Agorn McGee) VALENCE AND VISION:A READER IN PSYCHOLOGY [1974] (ed. Rich Jones & Richard L. Roe) IN DREAMS AWAKE [1975] (ed. Leslie A. Fiedler) THE SURVIVAL OF FREEDOM [1981] (ed. Jerry Pournelle & John F. Carr) THE SCIENCE FICTION HALL OF FAME, VOL. III [1982] (ed. Arthur C. Clarke & George W. Proctor) --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 86 16:22:39 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com Subject: W. Macfarlane From: (Marty Moore) > In the early 70's I read a series of stories in various SF > magazines by W. Macfarlane. The stories featured Col. Arleigh > Ravenshaw, a special investigator of some type, and his secretary, > Nell Rowley. The stories generally featured parallel-world > travel. I have a few questions for the experts out there: > > 1. Does anyone have a complete list of the stories? Were they > ever collected? Did Macfarlane write anything besides this > series? (a.) "Ravenshaw of WBY, Inc." Analog Mar 1970 "Meet a Crazy Lady Week" Analog Aug 1970 "One-Generation New World" If Mar-Apr 1971 "Heart's Desire and Other Simple Wants Analog Apr 1971 "Country of the Mind" Analog May 1975 (b.) No, they were never collected. In fact, MacFarlane never had a book published. (c.) He wrote over 30 short stories (including the Ravenshaw ones) that appeared in various magazines and anthologies. He had two stories published in ASTOUNDING in 1949 and one in GALAXY in 1952, and then wasn't seen until 1967. I haven't seen anything from him since 1977. > 2. Was the complete text of the poem starting "The worlds exist in > the mind alone..." ever printed? You got me. > 3. Could someone provide more information about the author? I > don't think I've ever heard anything else about him/her. Since he never had a book published, none of the big reference works (Tuck, Reginald, Nicholls, etc.) have an entry for him. Ashley's index to ASTOUNDING/ANALOG gives only his birth year (1918) and his occupation ("US Farmer & Construction Estimator"). Oh, by the way, his first name is Wallace. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 86 20:04:32 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: MASTER OF SPACE AND TIME by Rudy Rucker MASTER OF SPACE AND TIME by Rudy Rucker Baen, 1985 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper In some ways this book is not unlike Philip K. Dick's EYE IN THE SKY. That is, it is the story of what happens when someone can control reality. (I suppose it's also reminiscent of Ursula K. LeGuin's LATHE OF HEAVEN in that regard.) Rucker, a mathematician by profession, uses quantum physics to explain how Harry Gerber can become the "master of space and time," molding reality to suit his fancy. (Let's face it, if you lived in New Brunswick, New Jersey, like Harry Gerber does, you'd want to change reality too!) For very complicated reasons, Gerber can only effect three changes (the three wishes of old). The book is interesting enough while you're reading it, but I found it quite forgettable as soon as I finished it. I've read a lot of great reviews of Rucker's work, so maybe this is one of his weaker works. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl (or ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jun 86 20:20:26 PDT From: chuq@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: coming soon from Avon books I'm now getting regular information on upcoming publishing schedules from a number of Publishers. I thought this stuff would be of interest to sf-l. Here is the schedule of books to be published by Avon between now and year end: June: SHINING STEEL by Lawrence Watt-Evans (sf) THE HAND OF OBERON by Roger Zelazny (sf, reissue) July THE SCIENCE FICTION HALL OF FAME, VOL. IV by Terry Carr (sf anthology) THE SCIENCE FICTION HALL OF FAME, VOL. I by Robert Silverberg (sf anthology reissue) THE COURTS OF CHAOS by Roger Zelazny (sf reissue) THE ORDER OF THE DAY by Marcio Souza (sf) August THE CORNELIUS CHRONICLES VOL. II by Michael Moorcock (sf) CREATURES OF LIGHT AND DARKNESS by Roger Zelazny (sf reissue) September THE BLACK GRAIL by Damien Broderick (sf) MARTIAN SPRING by Michael Lindsay Williams (sf; 1st novel) BATTLE CIRCLE by Piers Anthony (sf reissue) October WINDMASTER'S BANE by Tom Deitz (fantasy, 1st novel) TO THE RESURRECTION STATION by Stephen Leigh (sf) MUTE by Piers Anthony (sf reissue) November THE RAINBOW CADENZA by J. Neil Schulman (sf) THE BONES OF GOD by Stephen Leigh (sf) MACROSCOPE by Piers Anthony (sf reissue) December STATESMAN (BIO OF A SPACE TYRANT VOL V) by Piers Anthony (sf) WINTER'S DAUGHTER by Charles Whitmore (sf; 1st novel) BILL, THE GALACTIC HERO by Harry Harrison (sf reissue) Enjoy, chuq ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jun 86 01:38:43 PDT From: woody@Juliet.Caltech.Edu (William E. Woody) Subject: re: generation ship idea I know, this is at 2:00 in the morning and my brain circuitry isn't working properly, but I read something which caught my eye: > I think there is far more chance (but less adventure) in finding a > hulk with all aboard dead, than savages living on a generation > ship. I envision an advanced race of humans in a far off star, and finding this _HUGH_ (in their standards) ship with a whole bunch of dead humans, dead by violent (sp?) means. The humans at this far off star are convinced that they are the only race of humans, and when finding this ship of death, they go nuts. Where'd it come from? What's its purpose? Why did all those people die? My brain is offline right now, so I can't come up with a plot for this potential short story, but I give it to the net for someone else to toy with. And I do think there could be a lot of adventure awaiting this long dead Generation Ship. Responses? William Woody (woody@juliet.caltech.edu) ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 86 18:58:35 GMT From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: Gil Gerard and Erin Gray (Buck Rogers TV stars) -- recent Subject: work? I believe that Gil Gerard (or was it Robert Urich? I forget) was on the recent disney pilot "the last electric knight" as the sloppy-but-lovable cop who adopts the adorable, supercompetent samurai warrior child. The show has become part of the new fall lineup. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 86 15:10:44 EDT From: SAROFF%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (MATTHEW G. SAROFF) Subject: A bit about tactics & strategy. It seems that the discussion of a number of books (Ender's Game, The Dorsai Series, Hammer's Slammers, etc. ) have resulted in some major disagreements about the basic nature of war and the basic nature of battle. I have read some of the Dorsai books, but I have not read either Ender's Game or Hammer's Slammers. However, from what I have read in the Dorsai books, the few pages of Hammer's slammers (the first 20. I put it back down), and what people have told me about Ender's Game, I can draw a rather straightforward conclusion: The authors of these books don't really know anything about the nature of war. I am writing a little lesson for those people who wish to continue to discuss these books. It's a bit long, and it has a bit of history in it. For those of you who want to understand what the basic characteristics of battle and war, I recommend the book WAR by Gwynne Dwyer. It is essentially the book version of the PBS series of the same name. Let me begin to describe the "haze of battle" by using 2 examples from WAR. Both these examples are from the 1973 Arab-Israeli war. Example 1: A commander of an Israeli tank brigade was in a secure position on one side of a valley. His unit had already engaged and destroyed a number of Syrian tanks that had tried to assault his position. After a long period of inactivity, he began to wonder whether he should advance across the valley. If he successfully advanced, he would gain some additional tactical advantages, but his tanks would be exposed when they crossed the valley. Eventually he decided to send his tanks across the valley. He decided to string them out so that if the enemy was waiting, only a few would be exposed at one time. When most of the tanks were exposed, concealed ATGW teams opened fire and took out about 75% of his tanks. Our brigade commander took a chance, and lost. Example 2: In the early days of the war, a Syrian commander had broken through Israeli lines. He came to a valley that he had to cross if he wanted to continue advancing. This commander saw that this was an obvious place for an ambush. He was sure that the Israeli's were on the other side of the valley waiting to ambush and counter attack, so he decided to wait for reinforcements. He was wrong. The Israelis were not on the other side of the valley. By the time the reinforcements came, the Israelis were there. He was eventually pushed back. We have just seen how almost identical situations and totally different answers can both be wrong. That is the nature of battle. People engaged in battle are neither omniscient of omnipotent. The situation is fluid and chaotic, and a one of the biggest factors is chance. The Napoleonic and American Civil wars are perhaps the two periods with the greatest changes in the face of war. They made war what it is today. The Napoleonic Wars showed that no general, no matter how brilliant, could defeat a reasonably competent chief of staff. War had gotten too big for one man. More than anything else, it was the general staff that defeated at Waterloo. Every general since this time has used a general staff. We don't see real general staffs in most sci-fi battle books. It's not as good reading. The Civil War brought about a number of advances in war. It was the first war where a majority of the casualties were caused by bullets. The creation of the oval bullet allowed for rapid firing (4-6 rounds/minute) rifles (Before that time, bullets had to be HAMMERED DOWN the muzzle of the rifle). It was the first war where long range weapons (Rifles, artillery, etc.) were the primary weapons. There was a movement away from hand-to-hand combat. The Civil War was the first war where mechanical mobility, the rail roads, was used. When General Sherman marched through Georgia, he was able to move quickly because he used the rail line running across Georgia as a supply line. He did not have to worry about out-distancing his supplies. However, he also had to stay close to the rail line. He had very limited tactical options: He could attack up to about 20 miles north of the line, or 20 miles south. What made him successful was the fact that he managed to get his opponents guessing wrong. Capitalizing on opponent's mistake is what winning a battle is about, and Sherman did that very well. It was the greatest general of the war, Ulysses S. Grant, who show the new face of war. Grant was a talented tactician, as can be seen from the Vicksburg campaign, but Robert E. Lee was a truly brilliant tactician. Grant beat Lee because he did something that had never been done before: he kept the two opposing forces in contact for a period of months. He added an innovation that NO ONE had ever used before. He had the battle last for MONTHS instead of hours. Lee was almost certainly a better tactician (short term), but he never showed much attention to strategy (long term). Grant was the better general because he saw, and used, the long view. He was a talented innovater, Lee was a brilliant conventional general. That is why Grant won. As one looks at more recent wars, one notices two things: 1) The amount of information available to both sides is still very small. You have to guess. 2) Strategy becomes more important than tactics. World War I was fought almost entirely on a strategic level, and the most effective idea of the second world war was MacArthur's island hopping. The Japanese created fortified islands, and MacArthur went to other islands. The Japanese saw a wall of steel, and MacArthur saw a series of stepping stones. The authors of Hammer's Slammers, Dorsai, etc. Do not understand a few basic facts about war: 1) Unless it is machine guns against spears, both sides tend to be technically pretty evenly matched. If it were otherwise, there wouldn't be a normal fight. You would have gorilla war. 2) Due to the fluid nature of combat, both sides have about the same amount of accurate data about the battle: almost none. 3) Overwhelming numerical superiority will win if the person with the numbers has the stomach to carry the battle to the enemy CONTINUOUSLY. I do not read books like the Dorsai series any more. I can suspend my disbelief about dragons, magic, and hyperdrive, but I just can't believe the idiocy that masquerades as sound military thinking in those books. Later, Matthew Saroff ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Jun 86 0921-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #155 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 17 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 155 Today's Topics: Books - Card (2 msgs) & Reynolds & Strieber & Wells & Footfall, Films - Star Trek & Burning Chrome, Miscellaneous - Tactics and Strategy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Jun 86 02:08:13 GMT From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: morality in "Ender's Game" From: redford%52584.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (John Redford) >** spoiler warning ** > >I too got wrapped up in the book. Here was a classic means versus >ends story: tormenting a small child for the greater good of the >species. They turned this kid into a monster in order to make a >strategist out of him. What on earth was going to happen to Ender >once they had wrung him dry? And it turns out that .... nothing >happens. He feels bad about killing an alien. Everyone slaps him >on the back and then goes home. The alien forgives him. The >sadistic trainer is forgiven. Even his psychopathic brother >reforms. I think you are incredibly misreading Ender's Game (read: I don't really agree.) Ender ends up an exile from his whole planet with no friends except his sister and this brother upteen light-years away, he finds out that he murdered an ENTIRE SENTIENT RACE which had decided they weren't going to hurt humans any more (it was all a mistake, guys!) and has to live with that, he ends up writing an apologia for the ones he had killed, AND another for the brother he hated and feared -- and then devotes his life to finding a place where the Hive-mother's children could grow up and come back. Then (second spoiler warning) during his own lifetime he finds himself transformed from a world-saving hero into a Hitler, a demon, almost a Satanic figure in the minds of the race he gave his childhood and his happiness to save, while trying to re-establish the race he killed. >...Ender feels a need to atone for what he's done, but no one else >atones for what they did to him. Maybe that's where the original >short story stopped and the padding to fill it out to novel length >was inserted. It was a disappointing ending to a fine novel >overall. It's a legitimate ending at least -- sometimes noone DOES atone for the evil they do. Consider Andrew Jackson, who killed thousands of Cherokee (indirectly, by ordering they be "removed" to Oklahoma) BLATANTLY illegally (the Supreme Court ordered it not be done) and who is still considered a Hero in much of this part of the world. But Ender -- who was the direct "cause" of the evil -- has to live with it, and the people who did it to ender has to live with it. I think Scott's point was rather that people sometimes DO do something of which they are ashamed for some higher end: and that living with that can be very hard. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 1986 21:05:54 PDT From: sadoyama@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Eric J Sadoyama) Subject: Ender's Game, a sidelight From: Douglas M. Olson MILD SPOILER Just my two cents for this discussion; nobody has mentioned the 'electronic forum' for public discourse, through which Ender's siblings became public figures. Sound familiar, anybody? Does Card know the extent of current discussion coursing through the internet, or was he just guessing? Granted, we don't have QUITE the readership of leading statesmen (do we?) as he used in the novel...anybody out here feel like a pioneer? Doug (dolson @ Ada20.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 86 20:06:12 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: THE OTHER TIME by Mack Reynolds and Dean Ing THE OTHER TIME by Mack Reynolds and Dean Ing Baen, 1984 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper [Some spoilers] Don Fielding, archaeologist, somehow steps backward in time to the era of the Spanish conquest of Mexico. Naturally, he meets up with Cortez and then with Montezuma. He spends a lot of time considering the paradoxes involved: can he change history? what happens to his world if he does? Unfortunately, not much is resolved along those lines. Reynolds apparently wrote the first draft of this before he died; Ing finished it. One of them put in a lot of "local color"--how the Aztecs lived and worked, their customs and rituals, and so forth. The science fiction content, other than the premise itself, is rather thin. We never find out how Fielding went back in time, or what his interference will do to the present (i.e., the Twentieth Century). Basically what we have here is an historical adventure novel. I'm sure I read a very similar novel over the last year or so. That one was an alternate history in which the Spanish arrive a few years later, when a non-nonsense king has replaced Montezuma. The new king promptly wipes out the Spanish and goes on to extend his empire into Texas and northward. Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the novel. Like that one, THE OTHER TIME isn't great, but it's fun to read. to the Spanish conquest. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl (or ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl) ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 86 20:05:28 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: WOLF OF SHADOWS by Whitley Streiber WOLF OF SHADOWS by Whitley Strieber Sierra Club/Knopf, 1985 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper This is, unlikely as it sounds, a juvenile about nuclear winter. And it's told from the point of view of a wolf who is leading his pack from Minnesota down to Arkansas after a nuclear war. A woman (who happened to have done research on wolves the year before and so gained Wolf of Shadows' trust) flees from the city with her two daughters just after the bombs are dropped. One daughter dies from radiation burns almost immediately, but the woman and the other daughter follow, and eventually join, the wolf pack. Strieber has co-authored (with James Kunetka) another nuclear exchange novel, WAR DAY. In that one, only three cities were bombed, not enough to cause a nuclear winter. Apparently this novel grew out of a question he was asked by a reader of WAR DAY: "What about the animals?" So the telling of the novel from Wolf of Shadows' point of view makes some sort of sense. Unfortunately, the result seems to be a novel that is unrelentingly depressing. While it is true that there is little to be cheerful about in a nuclear winter, the telling of the story from the wolf's point of view means that we never find out anything about why the war started, how big it was, what happened to everyone else. Yes, it's true that the average survivor wouldn't know EVERYTHING, but they would have some idea of what was going on. Perhaps I expect too much of this book. It is, after all, aimed at a younger audience. But I also think it provides too fatalistic a view--the point-of-view character cannot do anything to influence the course of events that is destroying his world. None of his species can. For the reader to identify with the point-of-view character is to get the feeling that the reader can't either--not just can't as a child, but can't ever. But people obviously CAN have an effect--people are all that can have an effect. WOLF OF SHADOWS doesn't deal with that. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl (or ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl) ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 86 01:10:00 GMT From: duncan!lefevre@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Wells..a great or not? As I talk with teachers and I read more, I keep getting the impression that teachers, librarians, and to be quite frank with you, almost everyone I talk to feels that H. G. Wells is not a "Literary Great". Now, I have read a lot of his work (Specificly _Time_Machine_, _The_ Invisible_Man_, and _War_of_the_ Worlds_ ) and I feel from an overall standpoint trying to rule out my love of science Fiction and I see him as one of the greatest writers of all time. How about you? lefevre@duncan.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 86 19:00:59 GMT From: steinmetz!davidsen@caip.rutgers.edu (Davidsen) Subject: Re: FOOTFALL (spoilers follow) brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes: (( discussion of _footfall_ deleted here )) >What I really hate is alien invasion stories that aren't crafted as >well as Footfall. They have aliens with technology far beyond ours >having to fight a battle for control. Things like V and every B SF >movie count in here. I only partially agree with you. If the object of the invasion is to hold and use the planet, many weapons become useless. You don't burn the house down to get the mice out. In all our modern weapons, the only one which begins to destroy people without wrecking the planet is the so-called "neutron bomb". Even that is (a) only useful on concentrated populations, (b) would contaminate the atmosphere if used in large numbers, and (c) would probably kill most or all of the animals and plants as well. I'm open to suggestion, but I don't see any selective way to eliminate humans without wrecking things unless (a) you postulate a biological weapon of a completely unknown type, or (b) introduce some weapon with no basis in current practice or theory, such as the "brain wave damper" which was used in a few *really awful* stories. As a matter of taste, I am not fond of new technology introduced with a bit of hand waving. If it's magic, call it fantasy, if not, do some work and base it on an extension of exsisting theory or practice. How far have we come in selective killing technology? The cave man had to locate his enemy by sight, sound, and smell, and kill him by using a sharp object or throwing a rock. Substitute "bullet" for "rock" and you can call it VietNam (or Falklands, or Afghanistan, etc). The only new idea is the "killing machine", be it android or tank, which identifies humans on sight and kills them. Even this needs to assume that the device either can't be identified by humans or is not destructable by them (the second I could believe, given a reasonable increase in material fabrication). In short (which this has not become), most of the believable stories have one individual (or machine) trying to destroy a human. It's this one on one adversary relationship that makes the stories good. _Footfall_ assumes that the death of a fraction of the population was so horible that the rest of humanity would give up. That doesn't sound like the race I hang out with. bill davidsen {ihnp4!seismo!rochester!steinmetz|unirot|chinet|sixhub} !crdos1!davidsen davidsen@ge-crd.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 86 21:50:22 PDT From: crash!pnet01!bnw@nosc.ARPA (Bruce N. Wheelock) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #148 mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (S. Luke Jones) writes: >I suppose that Star Trek can be forgiven for insisting on the >Enterprise, but, I swear, that ship is the most overused aircraft >carrier in the fleet: Tom Cruise et al. use it in _Top Gun_ also. >Also, isn't the E'prise supposed to hang out in the Indian Ocean? The Enterprise is, for a number of reasons, the best known and most visible carrier in the Pacific Fleet. Mainly, she is the first nuclear powered carrier. Many of us who've been assigned to other carriers do wish that they'd use other carriers, though they did use U.S.S. Nimitz for (gack!) "The Final Countdown." Enterprise, like the other five Pacific Fleet carrier, take their turn in the Indian Ocean and Western Pacific. >Leonard Nimoy. . .confirmed most of the rumors. . .and added this: >STIV is supposed to be a comedy!! From what I read and Walter Koenig said, STIV will have more humor in it than the previous three films, but less than "A Piece of the Action." More along the lines of "Shore Leave" as far as I can gather. I wouldn't get carried away--Nimoy was probably being inadvertantly (or deliberately?) unclear. Bruce N. Wheelock crash!vista!pnet!pnet01!bnw@ucsd ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 1986 21:05:54 PDT Subject: Burning Chrome From: Douglas M. Olson From: sadoyama@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Eric J Sadoyama) >This didn't mention Gibson by name, but "Burning Chrome" *is* the >name of his new short story collection. Hmmm... Gibson's "Burning Chrome" copyright 1982, was Nebula Award Runner-up that year, I assume in the short story category. My first glimpse of it was in the Nebula Awards Anthology for that year which I picked up used a few months ago, editor Robert Silverberg. GOOD STORY. But, I wouldn't say this is 'A film of "Neuromancer"', quite. Same world-line, electronic cowboys and that dreadful 'ice'; but this is not the same story as the novel "Neuromancer". Thanks for the pointer to the short-story collection, I'll snap it up. It's probably worth the price based on the cover story alone. What a movie it could be! Doug (dolson @ Ada20.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 86 07:24:56 GMT From: ucdavis!ccrrick@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Heli) Subject: Re: A bit about tactics & strategy. From: SAROFF%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (MATTHEW G. SAROFF) > The Civil War was the first war where mechanical mobility, > the rail roads, was used. When General Sherman marched through > Georgia, he was able to move quickly because he used the rail line > running across Georgia as a supply line. He did not have to worry > about out-distancing his supplies. However, he also had to stat > close to the rail line. He had very limited tactical options: He > could attack up to about 20 miles north of the line, or 20 miles > south. What made him succesfull was the fact that he managed to > get his opponents guessing wrong. Capitalizing on opponent's > mistake is what winning a battle is about, and Sherman did that > very well. The dramatic thing about Sherman's March to the Sea was that he cut himself off from the supply line and carried his own supply train. Your remarks about the use of rail are off the mark. His tactical options were many, except that eventually he had to get to the coast to be re-provisioned. > It was the greatest general of the war, Ulysses S. Grant, > who show the new face of war. Grant was a talented tactician, as > can be seen from the Vicksburg campaign, but Robert E. Lee was a > truly brilliant tactician. Grant beat Lee because he did > something that had never been done before: he kept the two > opposing forces in contact for a period of months. He added an > innovation that NO ONE had ever used before. He had the battle > last for MONTHS instead of hours. Lee was almost certainly a > better tactician (short term), but he never showed much attention > to strategy (long term). Grant was the better general because he > saw, and used, the long view. He was a talented innovater, Lee > was a brilliant conventional general. That is why Grant won. I couldn't agree less with the use of "greatest." If Grant was so wonderful, how can you explain Cold Harbor, for example? To claim that Lee never considered strategy is absurd! What do you think Gettysburg was all about? The number of times Lee was consulted by Davis on overall Southern strategy is stupendous. Grant's Virginia campaign was mostly reflective of his acceptance of heavy losses and attacks on fortified positions, as well as an unwillingness to give up. There was little innovation in this campaign and it calls to mind, more than anything else, the senseless attacks to be applied against trenches in World War I. rick heli UUCP: ... {ucbvax,lll-crg}!ucdavis!ccrrick INTERNET: ucdavis!ccrrick@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Jun 86 0828-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #156 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 18 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 156 Today's Topics: Books - Bradley & Brin & Card (3 msgs) & Ford & Laumer (2 msgs) & Footfall (2 msgs) & Anthologies & Generation Ship Story & Story Request, Films - Showscan, Television - Star Trek (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Party at Westercon? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Jun 86 15:07:24 EDT From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: darkover... I just finished "Darkover Landfall" by marion Zimmer Bradley and enjoyed it alot. However, when I went to the bookstore, I found tens of Darkover titles and no idea which book comes next. Can someone post a chronological listing of all the Darkover books and maybe some sort of rating system? Any help would be most appreciated. Thanx, Stephen Pearl ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 86 11:02:32 PDT (Tuesday) From: Cate3.pa@Xerox.COM Subject: The latest on "The Uplift War"? What is the latest on David Brin's "The Uplift War"? The last I'd heard it was suppose to come out this August, is this still true? And rumors on the ships, big as moons? Thanks. Henry III ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 86 02:22:47 GMT From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Ender's Game with possible spoiler (so read the book Subject: already!) moly@vax1.UUCP (Bruce F. Wong) writes: >Actually the Buggers were still fighting when Ender came along. It >was only after the first engagements that the Hive Queen got into >his mind via ansible and saw that all was lost. Check pg 352 of the hardback edition. The hive-queen decides the humans will destroy them AND THEN gets to Ender's mind via ansible. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 86 17:54:19 GMT From: fortune!stirling@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick Stirling) Subject: Re: morality in "Ender's Game" reply to John redford's posting: > [...] tormenting a small child for the greater good of the >species. They turned this kid into a monster in order to make a >strategist out of him. Monster? I think Card went to some length to show that Ender came thru a very difficult upbringing relatively unscathed - not a monster at all. Ender, while brilliant etc., has continual doubts, guilt, remorse, etc. > What on earth was going to happen to Ender once they had wrung him >dry? And it turns out that .... nothing happens. What should happen? Once a war's over, people go back to their normal existence. >Even his psychopathic brother reforms. No he doesn't - Card points out that Peter (Ender's bro) becomes leader of the world, fulfilling his (Peter's) desires for domination. This is Ender's story not Peter's. >So Card comes down on the ends side of the issue. I don't think Card drew any conclusions. Ender was emotionally crippled until almost the end (I won't spoil it!) and he left moralising up to the reader. > Evil actions should have evil consequences. But they often don't in real life >the author is taking the stand that morality is irrelevant, that >there is no justice. [...] Ender feels a need to atone for what >he's done, but no one else atones for what they did to him. There was some stuff about Gaff (Ender's teacher) self doubts, but Gaff felt that he had to go thru with it. > It was a disappointing ending to a fine novel overall. I must confess that I agree with you here (!) I felt the Card was rather obviously leaving room for a sequel... In fact I think I read here on the net that there is one - can anyone help me there? I wonder why Ender's game has suddenly come up on the net? My copy is copyrighted 1977 - has it just been republished? patrick {ihnp4, hplabs, amdcad, ucbvax!dual}!fortune!stirling ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 86 18:01:34 GMT From: fortune!stirling@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick Stirling) Subject: Re: Ender's Game with SPOILER This contains a SPOILER - you've been warned! >>the Buggers were NOT fighting by the time Ender came along -- that >>is one of the ironies of the book. > >Actually the Buggers were still fighting when Ender came along. It >was only after the first engagements that the Hive Queen got into >his mind via ansible and saw that all was lost. Bruce F. Wong I think you're both both right and wrong! The irony was that when the buggers' Queen realized that humans were individually intelligent, they did not launch any more invasions, and would have left the humans alone. However humans being what they are, we launched our own invasion, with Ender commanding via ansible. Then the queen saw that all was lost, etc. patrick {ihnp4, hplabs, amdcad, ucbvax!dual}!fortune!stirling ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 86 07:06:55 GMT From: proper!carl@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: John M. Ford jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes: >I notice that no one has yet mentioned that Ford wrote a module for >West End's role-playing game _Paranoia_. If memory serves me >correctly, it's called "The Black Box Blues", and is appropriately >manic in the style Paranoia players have come to know and fear. That's YELLOW CLEARANCE BLACK BOX BLUES, and how did you manage to get information not at your access level, Citizen? Carl-U-PRP-1 ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 86 14:52:57 GMT From: enea!pesv@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: COBRA by Timothy Zahn (mild spoiler) Sounds something like a book by Keith Laumer I read a couple of years ago, it was called "Devil dogs" or something like that. If you like this Timothy Zahn book, I can assure you that you will relish Keith Laumer when he's at it. The hero stumbles upon these (alien naturally) 'Devil dogs' in the middle of a middle eastern war around year 2K. He of course has a friend that wants to try out a new invention as well as fending off the aliens (that (naturally) uses human organs for dirty functions. (that's why they show up on a battlefield, people disappear anyway)). The hero gets turned into a $1.0E6Man+ (that's the invention), with all that that implies (IR sight, ability to speed himself up by a factor of 10 at will (short time), Gargantuan strength, etc.), in short a real Super Heroes Character. The aliens, however are almost as tough all by themselves and far more than one. Soon he finds himself alone in the middle of the U.S., hiding, exhausted near death and severely sick and inflamed by wounds. He then begins to travel in high-tech america from east to west-coast where he is supposed to find shelter (according to his late friend), everybody corrupted by the aliens, power diminishing fast. Anyway, before I tell the whole story I should conclude that the book is (as allways) a REAL *killer* and SHOULD be READ. It's got some of the feelings of Alfred Besters 'Tiger man' which also is one of my absolute favourites. I truly recommend it. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 86 18:32:54 GMT From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: COBRA by Timothy Zahn pesv@enea.UUCP (Peter Svensson) writes: >Sounds something like a book by Keith Laumer I read a couple of >years ago, it was called "Devil dogs" or something like that. `Plague of Demons'; it was reprinted fairly recently. Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1516) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jun 86 22:24:54 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: accuracy in FOOTFALL From: cjh@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) >descriptions of Washington DC and environs. . . the drive in from >Dulles wasn't as deserted as they describe even in 1974, . . . and >now is so heavily built up that it's a toll road for anyone not >going to the airport, . . . what they said was certainly not what I >remembered from riding past twice a day for several years. After >that I was unwilling to believe anything they came up with; they >would have been better off fuzzing details rather than getting them >specifically wrong. Forgive a parochial midwesterner who has never been closer to the Capitol than Dalzell's Eastern Shore home. Sounds to me like that goof grated you like getting more than one Best of Breed per day in a single breed at an AKC dog show did me. However, I reiterate, their expert on herd societies and vertebrate critter design is stellar, and if their linguistics and other consultants were equally good, they had good advice. Although (knowing a bit about linguistics and speech production via my anthropological avocation) I question the matter of language, period. Perhaps they explicitly postulated the requisite ability to alter the cross-section of the air passage (vowel production) and some alternative to the use we make of our tongues for consonant production. There is no logical relationship between the quality of conceptualization of plot or characters and the errors which each of us found grievous. I, personally, am willing to forgive authors I otherwise appreciate for idiosyncrasies of style or errors of fact, so long as they entertain me. I will even forgive spelling errors and 'words' obviously coined in naivete, if they can tempt me through the remainder of the narrative. Perhaps you are not especially a fan of Niven and/or Pournelle? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 86 08:27 PDT From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Footfall descriptions... The descriptions in the books are not meant to be REAL, they are meant to be fake places in real towns. There is undoubtedly a possiblity of a lawsuit if a description is too accurate. These are trying times... As for the description of Bellingham, I went to Western Washington University for a lengthy four years to get my degree and I know the town quite well. I also met Niven and Pournelle there when they came to visit. They described the town in only most superficial ways. The most detailed description they had was driving down "Motel Row" after getting off the freeway, and that could describe any of 2 million small towns in the USA. Come on people, lets let fiction be fiction. Jusyt because it happens in a real place doesn't mean that it has to be real. They never did say what year it happened in, anyway. Anyways, Bellingham was a small price to pay to defeat the Snouts. Jon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1986 02:43 EDT Subject: Martin H. Greenburg From: M.A. Murphy Here are two anthologies that I own which he has had a hand in. (Can you say alliteration at the end of that sentence...) Machines That Think Asimov, Warrick & Greenburg Holt, Rinehart & Winston 1983 Tantalizing Locked Room Mysteries Asimov, Waugh, & Greenburg Walker 1982 ------------------------------ Date: Tue 17 Jun 86 14:39:22-CDT From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: Generation ship story suggestion Samuel Delany's The Ballad of Beta-2 is a good one! It concerns an anthropology student who is researching a fleet of generation ships which left before FTL travel was discovered and arrived at their destination years later, after mankind had already arrived via FTL flight. Some of the ships were lost en route, the survivors had degenerated, and it's all considered a dull research topic by the student. It turns out that there is quite an interesting history to the fleet, though, including figuring out the meaning of the Ballad of the title. I recommend this book as a good generation ship story, even to people scared off from Delany -- it's only 115 pp and quite readable! (Not like other infamous Delany works...:-) Russ Williams ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 86 14:48:51 GMT From: hack@mit-amt.MIT.EDU (Jay Fenlason) Subject: I know the title, where is it? I recall reading a short story a while ago. The title was "Cancerama Angels" (I'm fairly sure.) and it was included in some anthology. I don't know who wrote it. Now I can't find it. Does anyone out there know which book it was in? (Simple exhaustive search of my library failed to find it.) The story was about a person who came down with incurable cancer and used rather amusing methods to combat it. Jay Fenlason hack@amt.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 86 22:47:37 GMT From: onfcanim!dave@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Martindale) Subject: Showscan daver@felix.UUCP (Dave Richards) writes: >The only film I know of that has been produced so far is called >"Tricks in the Parlor", or something like that. It's about a half >hour long (neccessarily short due to the high speed), and was >primarily produced to sell the idea of a chain of "Showscan" >theaters. Apparently it contains some pretty spectacular effects. A good place to see Showscan is Expo '86 in Vancouver. There are two large- screen Showscan films: one is the first film you see in the Canada pavilion, after the slide show, and one is the main film in the British Columbia pavilion. Both are in the 20+ minute length range. There is also a Showscan film used in one of the small "Discovery" exhibits in the B.C. pavilion that is showing an undersea rescue, but I missed that one. In fact, if you are interested in film technology, Expo '86 is a great place to visit. In addition to the three Showscan films mentioned, there is a 3D film at the Ontario pavilion, a Circlevision film at Telecom Canada, Omnimax film in the Expo Centre, IMAX 3D film and 10-screen films in the Canada pavilion, plus a few more "ordinary" 35mm films. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jun 86 19:03 CDT From: David M. J. Saslav Subject: Leslie Parrish I just finished Richard Bach's stirring novel, "The Bridge Across Forever". In the story, which is purported to be for the most part true, with no names changed, the heroine's name is given as Leslie Parrish, an actress by trade. At one point in the storyline, a fan comes up to her and says something to the effect of, "Hey -- I saw you in Star Trek!" Since I left my Concordance behind when I left for the summer, I hoped that if I posed the question of which ST role this woman played to this list, I might be enlightened. Any guesses? (My best guess is the role of the mother of Kirk's son in WoK, but I'm almost sure I'm incorrect.) Dave Saslav ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 86 05:41:40 GMT From: ulowell!rickheit@caip.rutgers.edu (Erich W Rickheit) Subject: Re: Carlo Sampson's queries. SHADOW%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes: > The last original Star Trek episode that was filmed and aired >before the original T.V. series (the later animated series was >another matter) was cancelled was called "Turnabout Intruder." The >plot concerned the insane jealousy of Kirk's old rival and >flame(?), Dr. Janice Lester. Dr. Lester was a romantic thorn from >Kirk's past who lusted after the power associated with a starship >command. However, one of the last remaining prejudices of the 23rd >century meant that woman were not allowed to command Federation >Starships. Not quite the case. We honestly don't know if women can become starship captains (though I recall, in V McIntyre's adaption of ST, Kirk mentions Sulu's girlfriend who was commanding a Galaxy ship; the girl in question was a character from _The_Entropy_Effect_. Am I remembering all this right?) Dr. Lester, though, was specifically not qualified for command - something to do with mental health? :-) ...wanginst!ulowell!rickheit USnail: Erich Rickheit 85 Gershom Ave, #2 Lowell, MA 01854 (617) 453-1753 ------------------------------ Date: Mon 16 Jun 86 23:26:37-PDT From: Lynn Gold Subject: "@!%.::" party at Westercon? Is anyone out there planning on attending Westercon this year? If so, there's been some movement afoot to start organizing the "@" (etc.) party in advance. If you're planning on being there, please send me mail; I'll be setting up a mailing list so we can plan the party (what we want to eat/drink, how much to chip in, whose room it'll be in, etc.). Lynn ARPA: Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM UUCP: ...{vecpyr,portal,hoptoad,lll-lcc}!atari!figmo ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Jun 86 0844-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #157 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 18 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 157 Today's Topics: Books - Spider Robinson, Films - Film Trailers & Sequel to Alien, Television - Leslie Parrish & Doctor Who (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Killing Mankind & Westercon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 16 Jun 86 11:57 EDT From: MJWCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: "Callahan's Secret" (Slight SPOILER, maybe??) Hasn't anyone else seen this one on the shelves yet?? In the foreword, Spider Robinson attempts to make two things very clear. One is that he has not written a trilogy. Second is that this will be the last of the 'Callahan' stories. To quote: "It just so happens, by chemically pure chance, that this series of stories has reached its conclusion coincidental with the completion of the volume immediately following the one that succeeded the first one. That does NOT make it a trilogy." I'm not really fond of spoilers, so that's all I'll say about the book except to solicit other peoples opinions, and ask if anyone knows the title of the next 'non-trilogy' he will write/has written. (Once you read the book, you'll know what I am talking about.) P.S. This is the first time I've responded to SF-LOVERS so I hope I've sent it to the right address. I've been reading the digest for about a year now and really enjoy it. A hearty thanks to Saul for all his hard work, and to all the contributors for the book reviews and recommendations. P.S.S. Someone, sorry I can't remember who, started the flood of recommended 'funny sf' books. Can I make a request for recommended 'erotic sf' books? Someone recommended 'Astra and Flondrix' by Cullen but I've learned that it's out of print and can't be found. I'll add my recommendation for 'MIND GAMES' by the same person that wrote 'WAR GAMES'. I can't remember the author and my copy was lent to someone who loved it and lent it to someone who loved it and lent it to ....oh, you get the picture. Anyway, anyone got any personal favorites in this category?? Thanks in advance Marty Walsh VM systems programmer City University Of New York (212) 903-3655 ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 86 15:39:23 GMT From: fluke!moriarty@caip.rutgers.edu (Jeff Meyer) Subject: Trailers, Teasers and promotion: seminar at SEATTLE FILM Subject: FESTIVAL I don't know about you, but one of my favorite parts of any movie is the "coming attractions" section preceding the film. I always try to get to the theatre early enough to catch these, as some of them are more entertaining than the film I've come to see (case in point: the teaser for _The_Golden_Child_ which preceded _Top_Gun_). More often than not, the trailer makes the movie look better than it is. Well, this year's Seattle International Film Festival held a seminar bringing in two people who have become legendary in the film industry for coming up with effective trailers for films: Paula Silver (of R/Greenberg Associates) and Pablo Ferrer, the "father" of the innovative trailer. The evening specialized in the use of "teaser" trailers (where scenes from the movie are not shown -- instead, original material is used), along with various icons and poster images, to promote a film, and was one of the most interesting and educational events of this years festival. Below is a condensed version of what was shown, and should be of particular interest to film buffs (and especially Sci-Fi buffs) -- lots of wonderful trivia and inside information. It opened with an hour's worth of clips and a discussion by Paula Silver of the nature of film promotion and a breakdown of "teasers" into her own rather distinctive classes. She emphasized that the idea of any film promotion is to whittle away at the finished film until a single idea or concept is found that will sell the film. It may not be the concept which is at the heart of the film; in fact, it may be manufactured and be totally alien to the nature of the film. However, it is up to her and her associates to make sure it is the right concept to sell the picture, and from R/Greenberg's record (and quality level -- they've done some of the best trailers I've ever seen), you can see why they're so well known. After the concept, a second item is usually concieved: an icon, somehow related to the concept picked. This Icon can be an image or a phrase; prime R/Greenberg examples of icons would be the Ghostbusters symbol, the Egg in alien, "In space no one can hear you scream.", "You'll believe a man can fly", etc. Silver then went on to classifying promotional styles (and particularly "teasers") in an interesting way: she filed them according to how the studios wanted the film promoted. As she puts it (she is from New York City, with all the good and bad that implies), in Hollywood, you don't ever want to say "no" to the person who wants you to promote a film; they think they'll label you as a "negative" person. Better to work creatively within their guidelines or, better yet, wait until a new regime takes control at the studio -- they change every three months. I'll list several of the categories below, with example films and their corresponding anecdotes. The first category is the film where the studio comes in and says "Here's a film about X; however, we don't want you to mention X anyplace in the promotion." The first example of this was "Kramer Vs. Kramer", where the person pushing the movie said "This is not a film about divorce. This is a film about a positive change in several peoples lives." So R/Greenberg developed the now-classic developing Poloroid image with the voices of Hoffman, Streep and Bateman in the background. Another film that did this was _All_That_Jazz_, which was supposed to be played up as a musical instead of a semi-autobiography of Bob Fosse's life; the lighted ALL THAT JAZZ sign was viewed while voices and songs from the movie were played in the background. Universal handed down the law that _Tootsie_ was absolutely not to show Dustin Hoffman dressed up like a woman, for the fear that audiences would think it was a movie about transvestites. This is why the ads sum up the entire plot of the movie during the trailer: it is emphasized that Hoffman is only doing this because he can't get a job as himself, and Tootsie only appears in the last shot. Finally, it appears that more than once an edict has been handed down that "no black people are to appear in the trailer", because audiences would think it was a film about racism, which is supposed to "turn audiences off", at least as far as the studios are concerned. _Sugar_Babies_ and _A_Soldier's_Story_ were mentioned by name; early teasers used the _Kramer_VS_Kramer_ method to fit the bill. The second category involved Sci-Fi and horror movies, where the studio either does not want the monster revealed, or doesn't want it to be thought of as a "typical high-brow Sci-Fi movie". - Silver mentioned that she and Bob Greenberg saw _Alien_ before anyone else (Ridley Scott was apparently very gratified by how far she jumped out of her seat -- no one outside the dailies had seen the film before that). However, they wanted something that didn't provide scenes from the movie: hence the classic "egg" scenario. By the way, a neat piece of trivia: they did the Egg promo in one day. The next time you see it, note the surface of the planet that the teaser pans over. Look closely. Wonder what that stuff is? It's a brownie! To simulate the alien landscape for the teaser, they baked a bunch of brownies and then panned over them with a special lighting. Boy, those expensive special effects. When the promo was shown after that fact, we probably became the first audience ever to laugh through an entire _Alien_ trailer. - Another example of this is the teaser for _An_American_Werewolf_In_London_; the teaser is made up of cuts of a swamp, and as it proceeds, blood begins mingling with the water. The whole thing climaxes with a huge hairy paw freeze-framed as it hits the water, and the slogan "From the director of _Animal_House_: a different kind of animal". Apparently New Jersey was used for the swamps, almost all of them behind supermarkets (does this mean that supermarkets in NJ are built on swampland?), so they had to be careful not to catch the reflection of the Safeway signs in the water. Well, you work an honest day, and you want an honest deal, Grrrrr.... - _Lifeforce_ was not supposed to describe too much about the film (which Silver agreed with, after having been shown the final product) , and so the eye over the world was used. However, a doctor told them that getting a closeup of a human eye that close would blind the eye. However, a camera worker knew a blind friend who had beautiful blue eyes; and thus, the eye that looks down upon the globe ironically couldn't see it for the stars. - Finally, you may remember that the early _Superman_ commercials showed clouds flying by while the cast of the picture flashed by in those distinctive Superman credits (R/Greenburg created and produced them for the movie); this was done to try to make the film palatable to adults. The final category that I can remember was the one dealing with images, where the audience is to be taken in with a single image. Examples of this included _The_World_According_To_Garp_ and the flying baby sequence (done by placing the baby on a no-glare glass plate and shooting under the plate, moving the camera to simulate the kid being tossed). Apparently this was not easy, as the little tyke seemed to enjoy urinating onto the panel during takes, which rather ruined the effect. And _Ghostbusters_ led off with those mystery posters that littered most major cities months before it premiered (just the No Ghosts Icon and the words "Coming to Save the World This Summer"). After that, Pablo Ferrer came on stage. Ferrer started working for Stanley Kubrick back on _Dr._StrangeLove_. His trailers are famous for quick cuts and text between images. His most famous work is probably the _Clockwork_Orange_ trailer, with the 1-second cuts and the electronic "William Tell Overture" running behind it. While Paula Silver is definitely in the mainstream of the business, Ferrer continues to work on trailers for independent films, where he has a bit more creative control over what he does (his latest is for The Talking Head's film _Stop_Making_Sense_). Particularly interesting was the version of the trailer he did for _Harold_and_Maude_, which was never used because it (*GASP*) showed Harold and Maude kissing and falling into bed. Not to mention it had the classic "FUCK WAR" sign (the one Harold's crazy one-armed Hawk uncle tears down). All in all, an interesting evening and one which discussed how Hollywood really sees its audience. Jeff Meyer ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA UUCP: {uw-beaver, sun, allegra, sb6, lbl-csam}!fluke!moriarty ------------------------------ From: ihu1g!rls@caip.rutgers.edu (r.l. schieve) Subject: Sequel to ALIEN - ALIENS Date: 17 Jun 86 13:08:19 GMT I read a little movie go'ers article about S. Weaver (I know I'd botch the first name spelling) making the sequel to "ALIEN", titled "ALIENS". Ripley's story about the planet is not believed and she returns for some evidence with some help and high tech weapons. Anyone heard any more details. I doubt if a sequel can top the first... Rick Schieve ...ihnp4!ihu1g!rls ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 86 20:52:53 GMT From: umcp-cs!israel@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Israel) Subject: Re: Leslie Parrish David M. J. Saslav writes: >I just finished Richard Bach's stirring novel, "The Bridge Across >Forever". I'm not sure I'd classify it as a novel since it is mostly autobiographical, but it is one hell of a good book. >In the story, which is purported to be for the most part true, with >no names changed, the heroine's name is given as Leslie Parrish, an >actress by trade. At one point in the storyline, a fan comes up to >her and says something to the effect of, "Hey -- I saw you in Star >Trek!" > >Since I left my Concordance behind when I left for the summer, I >hoped that if I posed the question of which ST role this woman >played to this list, I might be enlightened. Any guesses? (My >best guess is the role of the mother of Kirk's son in WoK, but I'm >almost sure I'm incorrect.) After I read the book, I was wondering about that also. I was especially wondering if she was a gorgeous as Richard Bach claims (after all, he's married to her, so he's obviously not objective). I started checking TV Guide listing of ST reruns. A friend remembered that Leslie was in the episode about Apollo, which eventually came on and I saw it. She is as good looking as he claims. She is the blonde who plays the obligatory non-regular female character on the ship, a scientist who Apollo falls in love with (and vice versa) when he captures the Enterprise. I wouldn't've guessed any characters from the ST movies, 'cause I thought the book made it fairly clear that it was from a TV episode a long time before Richard Bach met her. Bruce Israel University of Maryland, Computer Science Dept. {rlgvax,seismo}!umcp-cs!israel (Usenet) israel@Maryland (Arpanet) ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 86 03:23:11 GMT From: sco!ericg@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Doctor Who > And for those who think that a woman should play the Doctor, why >not consider having a show about Romana and K-9 (who knows what >interesting stuff happened to them in E-space)? Actually, I've had another idea. A woman doctor would be wonderful, but I think an extremely cultured Jamaican man would make a perfect doctor. Eric Griswold ihnp4!sco!ericg ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 86 23:50:00 GMT From: duncan!clyde@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Doctor Who Also, The Master could not be a future regeneration of The Doctor because in "The Five Doctors" it was revealed that The Master and The Doctor went to The Academy together. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 86 03:48:31 GMT From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton) Subject: How to kill mankind if you're an Alien Re: FOOTFALL davidsen@kbsvax.UUCP (Davidsen) writes: >If the object of the invasion is to hold and use the planet, many >weapons become useless. You don't burn the house down to get the >mice out. > >I'm open to suggestion, but I don't see any selective way to >eliminate humans without wrecking things unless (a) you postulate a >biological weapon of a completely unknown type This is perfectly reasonable. In man's wars, we always have the same biology as our opponent, and this limits the chemical and biological weapons we can use. I would think it would be very simple to make chemical weapons to kill most of the human race. We (humans) are constantly designing pesticides, herbicides and other chemical weapons that safely kill creatures with the same basic biology as ourselves. Any race of a more advanced technology should be able to do this to mankind without even blinking. Perhaps the race would not be harmed by nerve gas, or various other poison gasses. Bombs with such gasses, delivered from space, could quickly wipe out most of the population while doing no damage to the property. Military targets could be destroyed with more physical weapons. This ignores biological weapons, which could be even better. I can't say I know, but it seems to me that making a plague to kill all mankind would be much easier than making one that kill selectively or dies out quickly. Such a plague would be useless to us, but a fine weapon for Aliens. This is hardly new. In both "V" and "The War of the Worlds", this is exactly what gets the enemy, if by accident in the latter. Brad Templeton Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 86 04:46:32 GMT From: lewey!evp@caip.rutgers.edu (Ed Post) Subject: Re: "@!%.::" party at Westercon? Where is Westercon this year? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Jun 86 0732-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #158 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 20 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 158 Today's Topics: Books - Borges & Gibson (3 msgs) & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Wells & Story Request Answered, Television - Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Eliminating Humans (3 msgs) & The TUCKER Awards ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Jun 86 13:19:35 MDT From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley) Subject: Jorge Luis Borges Jorge Luis Borges died last week, in Geneva. '..With relief, with humiliation, with terror, he understood that he also was an illusion, that someone else was dreaming him...' Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 86 16:00:46 -0100 From: Jeff Dalton Subject: Burning Chrome I have heard several times now that the new Gibson s.s. collection will be or is called Burning Chrome; my question is this: does this book exist; is it available? mild spoiler Another thing. Am I the only person who finds "cyberspace" somewhat unconvincing? Mind you, I like the way it's done and the technique is an effective one; it's just that I don't think it would be like that. This doesn't mean that I can think of something else that it would be like, though. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 86 12:41:27 GMT From: gouldsd!mjranum@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Burning Chrome There's another Gibson book out, "capt" something or something like that. Someone also gave me a third-generation rumor about a movie version of Neuromancer !! Any info on this would be appreciated !!! > Another thing. Am I the only person who finds "cyberspace" > somewhat unconvincing? Try playing some really wild video-games someday !! Now, ask yourself: Would you rather hack to some interesting screen effects, or to a paper-tape terminal ? Sure, "cyberspace" is unconvincing, that's why it's called "fiction".... In all seriousness, I don't see why cyberspace *couldn't* be. If current data-storage techniques keep becoming more intricate at the rate they are, some kind of construct will be needed, just to help us poor mortals hold a useful idea of what's going on. If you decide on something like Gibson's cyberspace, it then becomes a matter of technology. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 86 19:19:50 GMT From: gouldsd!mjranum@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: William Gibson Any words about William Gibson's latest ? I read a review that they were coming out ("Burning Chrome" and another one) soon, but I have yet to find them. Anyone with updated rumors, please inform me... ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 86 13:08:10 GMT From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Another variety of stuff cjh@cca-unix.arpa writes: > 1) Hazel Stone's claiming to be an adopted child just doesn't fit >with her stories in ROLLING STONES; my recollection is that she >talks specifically of being a colonist. (I also wonder about the >social change required between MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS (women as a >protected species) and RS (Hazel says she left engineering as a >young woman because 3 men -"who couldn't do Xth-order differential >equations without a pencil and paper got promoted over [her]"- >---in TMIAHM would she have gotten the chance?). In fact, RS is the >Moon as a 1950's American suburb, which should be more than a >couple of generations from the Australian frontier model of >TMIAHM.) I dunno--a lot can happen in two generations. Also, I want to stress again that in _The Rolling Stones_ Hazel has, let us say, a very liberal attitude towards truth in storytelling. The main thing is that she is in both books definitely Hazel Meade, one of the Founders of Luna Free State. That to me is a very strong connection, and I haven't yet seen anything to the contrary difficult enough to explain to convince me that the two universes diverge again. > 2) RS ties into the main-line universe---the ship has a near-miss >with one of the UN's "peacekeeping" satellites, which are a feature >in SPACE CADET (which memorializes Ezra Dahlquist, one of the >heroes of the Future History). The satellites could happen >elsewhere, but I don't see the UN being that powerful in the GULF >universe. First of all, _Space Cadet_ is not part of the main timeline, though it comes very close. As I pointed out before, _SC_ takes place in a year in which, in the main timeline, America is cut off from space because of the Interregnum. Second, I think that a satellite is a bit too minor a datum from which to conclude that the universes are the same. Third, I still am not convinced that "Gulf" and _The Rolling Stones_ take place in the same universe, for similar reasons. pH ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 86 01:26:19 EDT From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} Subject: Lazarus Long's mother >connections until arguments like yours are all used up. I used to >worry about these things too: my favorite was how Lazarus Long >cried like a baby the night his mother died ("Methuselah's >Children") but told her later (eariler) that the families had no >record of her death (_Time Enough for Love_). Heinlein must have >noticed this error, because he fixed it in _Number of the Beast_. I just recently reread the story, and as far as I can remember the only time LL cried was when Mary Sperling "died"*. She was a good friend, but not his mother. * Well, she didnt really die, but to say more would be to spoil a small but significant piece of action, and I am loath to spoil much... Rah! Rah! Rah! Heinlein fanatic extraordinaire /amq ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 86 09:51:30 cdt From: ivanlan%ccvaxa@gswd-vms.ARPA (Ivan Van Laningham) Subject: Wells..a great or not? Check out Jack Williamson's doctoral thesis, "H.G. Wells: Critic of Progress." ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 86 15:59:41 GMT From: 6082317@pucc.BITNET (Douglas Davidson) Subject: Re: I know the title, where is it? hack@mit-amt.MIT.EDU (Jay Fenlason) writes: >I recall reading a short story a while ago. The title was >"Cancerama Angels" (I'm fairly sure.) and it was included in some >anthology. I don't know who wrote it. Now I can't find it. Does I believe you are referring to "Carcinoma Angels", by Norman Spinrad. The story may be found in _Dangerous_Visions_, edited by Harlan Ellison. The title refers to a symbolic representation of cancer cells as a motorcycle gang, the "Carcinoma Angels", with whom the protagonist plays a little demolition derby in the course of trying to cure himself of cancer. Douglas Davidson BITNET: 6082317@PUCC UUCP: ...allegra!psuvax1!pucc.bitnet!6082317 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 86 09:55 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Star Trek quote request Cc: Nancy I. Garman As memory serves: Episode: What Are Little Girls Made Of? A duplicate robot of Kirk is made and, as the personality is imprinted, Kirk repeats the phrase: "Mind your own business, Mr. Spock! I'm sick of your half-breed interference, do you hear?" The duplicate, upon running into Spock, calmly used the same phrase and wonders why it bothers Spock. Spock, of course, is suspicious, follows the duplicate with a landing party, and saves the day. The tag goes something like: Kirk: Is something bothering you, Mr. Spock? Spock: Your use of the word "halfbreed" You must admit, it is an unsophistocated term. Kirk: I'll keep that in mind . . . the next time I find myself in a similar situation. I'll try to remember to check my video tape tonight as I'm not positive about the wording of that last line, the one you're really looking for. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 86 15:27:55 GMT From: ulowell!rickheit@caip.rutgers.edu (Erich W Rickheit) Subject: Re: FOOTFALL (spoilers follow) davidsen@kbsvax.UUCP (Davidsen) writes: >brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes: >>What I really hate is alien invasion stories that aren't crafted >>as well as Footfall. They have aliens with technology far beyond >>ours having to fight a battle for control. Things like V and >>every B SF movie count in here. > >I'm open to suggestion, but I don't see any selective way to >eliminate humans without wrecking things unless (a) you postulate a >biological weapon of a completely unknown type, or (b) introduce >some weapon with no basis in current practice or theory, such as >the "brain wave damper" which was used in a few *really awful* >stories. As a matter of taste, I am not fond of new technology >introduced with a bit of hand waving. If it's magic, call it >fantasy, if not, do some work and base it on an extension of >exsisting theory or practice. The alien invasion story you're looking for is _The_Screwfly_Solution_ by someone who's name I've ignominiously forgotten. The title comes from the extension of a method to eliminate an insect pest. Researchers developed a chemical which interfered with the screwflies pheromones in such a way that they couldn't mate properly. The aliens used a similar technique to eliminate humans; they developed a pheromone that caused men to violently hate women. (This hate got rationalized into religious fervor, an interesting touch). Eventually, every woman on Earth got killed, leaving one generation of men to die out, and our aliens have a nice clean world. This is not BS; I've seen some work on pheromone control of insects, at least on a small scale. It's not unreasonable for a race with a higher technology to have a higher biology as well. Incidentally, I don't think you'd have to kill off _all_ the women; I think there's some point at which the base population is too small for growth; I don't know what it might be. This is a point I'm interested in-- is is possible for one Adam and one Eve to have populated the Earth? UUCP: ...wanginst!ulowell!rickheit USnail: Erich Rickheit 85 Gershom Ave, #2 Lowell, MA 01854 Phone: (617) 453-1753 ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 86 21:51:45 GMT From: srt@ucla-cs.ARPA (Scott Turner) Subject: Re: FOOTFALL (spoilers follow) Biological weapons seem like the best bet. I don't know what you mean by by "completely unknown type", but diseases like AIDS and the Plague could be pretty effective. Mass-produced, small, self-propelled kamikaze drones programmed to seek out humans and then explode could be very effective. Flood the biosphere with them and let them wreak havoc for 20 years. Similarly for tailored biological organisms. (What would society do if there were suddenly 10 man-eating tigers per square mile all over the Earth?) Of course, if you have decent space-going technology you don't really need to worry about being selective. Drop a few dozen huge meteorites on the planet and then spend a few years cruising the galaxy at near light-speed. Scott Turner ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 86 02:50:43 GMT From: 6082317@pucc.BITNET (Douglas Davidson) Subject: Re: Re: FOOTFALL (_Screwfly_Solution_) rickheit@ulowell.UUCP (Erich W Rickheit) writes: > The alien invasion story you're looking for is >_The_Screwfly_Solution_ by someone who's name I've ignominiously >forgotten. The title comes from the extension of a method to >eliminate an insect pest. Researchers developed a chemical which >interfered with the screwflies pheromones in such a way that they >couldn't mate properly. The aliens used a similar technique to >eliminate humans; they developed a pheromone that caused men to >violently hate women. (This hate got rationalized into religious >fervor, an interesting touch). Eventually, every woman on Earth got >killed, leaving one generation of men to die out, and our aliens >have a nice clean world. I am fairly certain this story is by Tiptree, for anyone who wants to check it out; and very Tiptreeish Tiptree it is, too. I think it is one of the more successful in her common vein of . I liked it better, for example, than the ones about the beavers and the goldfish ... Douglas Davidson BITNET: 6082317@PUCC UUCP: ...allegra!psuvax1!pucc.bitnet!6082317 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 86 22:35:44 CDT From: Rich Zellich Subject: TUCKER Awards Nomination Form for SF-Lovers readers T U C K E R A W A R D N O M I N A T I O N S A new award was instituted last year to recognize the activities of that heretofore unsung group of people known as SF convention partiers. Every award must, of course, have a nickname; the official nickname of the Award for Excellence in Science Fiction Convention Partying is the "Tucker". The first two years awards are sponsored and administered by the St. Louis in '88 Worldcon Bid Committee, and future awards will be administered by a related group. The awards will be nominated and voted on by members of Czarkon 4 (St. Louis' "adult relaxicon"), and the rest of SF party fandom via St. Louis in '88 bid parties and any fanzines or SF club newsletters willing to reprint this nomination form and/or the final ballot. **This includes SF-LOVERS""** There are 3 awards: 1 each for SF Professional (writer, editor, or dealer), SF Artist, and SF Fan. Couples or groups are eligible as a single nominee. Any SF convention partier over the age of 21 is eligible, but nominees this year must be willing to attend the presenting convention if they win. Winners are not eligible for re-nomination for a period of 5 years; losing nominees are eligible again the following year. The 1985 winners were: Special Grand Master Award: Wilson "Bob" Tucker SF Professional: Bob Cornett & Kevin Randle SF Artist: David Lee Anderson SF Fan: Glen Boettcher & Nancy Mildebrandt The design of the physical award is a full bottle of Beam's Choice bourbon mounted on a base; the base has a plaque with the year, award name, and the winner's name. An instant tradition was begun in 1985: the winners received their awards full, but took them home from the convention empty (many self-sacrificing volunteers helped empty the awards). To nominate someone for a 1986 Tucker Award, write their name (both names for a couple) and address opposite the applicable category on the form below, detach it along the dotted line, and mail it to TUCKER NOMINATIONS, c/o St. Louis in '88, PO Box 1058, St. Louis, MO 63188. Photocopied, hand-printed, or typed equivalents of the nomination form are acceptable. If you don't know a nominee's address, and don't think the Award Committee will either, if possible please include on the back of the form or a separate sheet the name of a prominent SF person (whose address we CAN determine) who may know the nominee and might be able to give us an address. Your own name and address are requested, but not required, to further assist in tracking down unknown-to-us nominees. *Network people may also send electronic facsimiles to * *"zellich@ALMSA-1 * NOMINATING DEADLINE IS 1 JULY 1986 1986 TUCKER AWARD NOMINATIONS PRO TUCKER name: ________________________________________________ address: ________________________________________________ ARTIST TUCKER name: ________________________________________________ address: ________________________________________________ FAN TUCKER name: ________________________________________________ address: ________________________________________________ Small ($1 or less) donations will be gratefully accepted to defray award expenses, but ARE NOT REQUIRED in order to nominate or to vote. Tucker Award donations will N O T be used to support the St. Louis in '88 Worldcon Bid. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Jun 86 0753-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #159 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 20 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 159 Today's Topics: Books - Macfarlane & Paxson & Generation Ship Stories & Title Mixup, Television - Erin Gray & Star Trek (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Austin Science Fiction Newsletter ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Jun 86 06:16:42 cdt From: ivanlan%ccvaxa@gswd-vms.ARPA (Ivan Van Laningham) Subject: w. macfarlane Many, many years ago (well, 10 anyway), I had an SF pseudonym handbook. I forget all the details, but I do recall W. Macfarlane being listed as a pseudonym. I guess Jayembee could come up with the particulars of the handbook, and possibly check my (possibly faulty) memory. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 86 14:51:27 GMT From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: BRISINGAMEN by Diana L. Paxson (mild spoiler) The jacket reads: "Imagine that a shy graduate student has discovered the legendary necklace Brisingamen -- whose wearer bears the powers of the goddess Freyja, mistress of love and war... Imagine that Freyja's enemy, Loki, has come to San Francisco to steal it back, so that he can release his fiery reign of terror... Imagine that only Karen Ingold can stop him. Together with her unlikely allies -- a one-eyed biker, a red-bearded carpenter, and a spinsterly Tarot reader -- Karen must follow her enemy to a twilight world of myth and magic ... not unlike our own!" This book has a lot going against it in terms of traditional fantasy novels. First, it takes place in the present. Second, by and large, the characters are not the hero types. Third, two of the main characters are Vietnam veterans, and their wartime experiences are ever-present in their current lives. The author pulls it off, however. There's not all that much magic, so you don't feel that she's taking liberties to move the story along. The story covers a few weeks and the action is paced properly. The background of the main character and her boss make it likely that she would get the necklace and, before too long, recognize it for what it is. I give this book 3.0 stars out of a possible 4.0. It probably won't appeal to fantasy readers who want a fantasy world, and it's certainly not science fiction, but I enjoyed it. Duane Morse ...!noao!{mot|terak}!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 86 13:08:10 GMT From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Another variety of stuff jerry@oliveb.UUCP (Jerry Aguirre) writes: >I have read many "generation ship" novels and the theme of cultural >instability (ie revolution) is a common one. I think it is, >however, an unjustified one. There are many existing examples to >draw upon for isolated cultures and the trend is for greater, not >lesser, cultural stability. > What changes that have occurred can usually be traced to OUTSIDE >influences, not internal breakdowns. The thing about generation ships is that they carry their own outside influences with them. In these stories the inhabitants of the ship have usually either reverted to near- savagery or were that way from the outset, in either case not realizing that anything besides the ship exists. This situation usually _has_ lasted hundreds or thousands of years. But when some young Copernicus comes along and one way or another discovers the truth (which is usually about when the author picks up the tale), the resulting clash of world views cannot help but be fairly destructive. pH ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 86 06:38:38 cdt From: ivanlan%ccvaxa@gswd-vms.ARPA (Ivan Van Laningham) Subject: Re: Re: COBRA by Timothy Zahn (mild Nope. Not "A Plague of Demons." Maybe you mean "A Plague of Pythons;" - that's Fred Pohl, and is a much more literate and enjoyable book than Laumer's "The Hounds of Hell," which appeared in _Worlds of IF_ magazine ~1964(?) - Grey Morrow cover. "A Plague of Pythons" was recently republished as "Demon in the Skull" with a good bit of rewriting; I think it improved the book, myself. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 86 23:48:32 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!ilacqua@caip.rutgers.edu (Elizabeth Lear) Subject: Re: Gil Gerard and Erin Gray (Buck Rogers TV stars) -- recent Subject: work? Erin gray also did a 'made-for-tv' movie titled "Born Beautiful" about an aging model and a newcomer (played by Lori Singer from 'Fame'). Erin's character Betsy is looking for a way to gracefully retire while proving that she is more than a face and Singer's character Jodi is trying to break in to the business. Not a bad movie, and interesting both because of its view of the modeling business and for the fact that both actresses began as models. elizabeth a lear UUCP: ...!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!ilacqua ARPANET: ilacqua@bucsb.bu.edu CSNET: ilacqua%bucsb@bu-cs BITNET: engemnc@bostonu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 86 08:02 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Leslie Parrish Cc: David M. J. Saslav Leslie Parrish played Lt. Carolyn Palamas in "Who Mourns for Adonais" the Star Trek episode where they run into Apollo. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 86 08:07 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Carlo Sampson's queries Cc: ulowell!rickheit@caip.rutgers.edu (Erich W Rickheit) The quote in "Turnabout Intruder" was "Your world of Starship Captains doesn't admit women." Fans who have their own female captains (I admit to being one myself) prefer to interpret this to mean that a Starship Captain (male) has no room in his life for women, rather than that woman aren't allowed to be Starship Captains. Much ST fan fiction, (and some of the pro published novels, such as McIntyre's, read much like fan fiction) revolves around female Starship Captains, so, for the fans at least, the ST cannon allows female captains. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 86 13:48:40 GMT From: ut-ngp!janeann@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Austin science fiction newsletter (long, but interesting) Here's something I came across that might be interesting to science fiction readers. It's a transcription of CHEAP TRUTH, a newsletter that's put out occasionally in Austin. Comments welcome. (No responsibility taken for typos.) EDITORIAL. SF notions dominate the current Geneva arms talks. In this issue, CHEAP TRUTH responds to the zeitgeist. POP AGITPROP Since its unlikely birth, SF has been a trash medium, its appeal restricted to a subcultural faithful. But that appeal is widening and is being culturally legitimized. With the advent of the Strategic Defense Initiative, the elements, themes, and modes of thought native to science fiction have become central to worldwide political debate. One SF splinter group has shown a laudable quickness in grasping SF's new political potential. Unlike traditional SF "movements" this group of writers is not marked by literary innovation but by its radical ideology. For purposes of discussion we will refer to them as the "Pournelle Disciples." This group has a number of strengths. The first is their solid publishing base in Tor and Baen Books. A second is their claim to tradition, especially the gung-ho technolatry that has marked genre SF since the days of Gernsback. Another crucial advantage is their ideological solidarity, which gives them the sort of shock-troop discipline that Lenin installed in the Bolsheviks. In this case, their Lenin is the redoubtable ex-Marxist Jerry Pournelle, who wears multiple hats as writer, editor, theorist, and political organizer. Pournelle's importance to this movement is demonstrated by a reading of his recent editorial effort, FAR FRONTIERS Volume III, (Fall 1985), published by Baen Books. The surprisingly dull stories in this book pale miserably in comparison to Pournelle's numerous bursts of naked political agitprop. These are in every way more intellectually challenging and emotionally disturbing than the fiction. The gem of this collection is Vernor Vinge's "The Ungoverned," a sequel to his commercially successful novel THE PEACE WAR. In this ideologically correct effort, radical Libertarians defend their realm from an authoritarian army. Thanks to their innate cultural superiority and a series of fraudulent plot Maguffins, they send the baddies packing with a minimum of personal suffering and a maximum of enemy dead. This piece is worth closer study for its standard Disciple elements. First, and very characteristically, it is post-apocalyptic, conveniently destroying modern society so that a lunatic-fringe ideology can be installed as if by magic. Convenient bits and pieces of high-tech are paraded in a flurry of buzzwords. Vinge avoids extrapolating their effects on society, because society is in shambles. Pournelle's promotion of the moral obligation to keep and bear arms is well known. Vinge carries this libertarian love of personal armaments to amazing lengths. In his scenario, private citizens own, not merely automatic rifles, but chemical weapons and neutron warheads, thus carrying the libertarian argument to a kind of logical *reductio ad nauseum*. The other stories are much worse. David Drake, a Disciple stalwart who specializes in military tales of a purported "gut-wrenching hyperrealism," contributes a silly and utterly negligible short-short about dimensional gates opening in a suburban kitchen. Despite its merciful brevity, it is still unable to make any coherent point. Rivka Jacobs' interminable "Morning On Venus" spoils a vaguely interesting opening with pompous meandering. By making the hero an historian, Jacobs avoids the painful necessity of extrapolating a coherent future, indulging instead in a confusing mishmash of historical sermonizing. Alexander Jablokov contributes a flabby fantasy pastiche, which imitates Niven as slavishly as one can without understanding him. All three of these stories feature much gratuitous offscreen sex, assuring the readership of the authors' with-it frankness without the sticky necessity of actually talking about f**king. John Dalmas contributes a decent male-adventure Western. Unfortunately this story pretends to be SF. It is set on yet another colonial planet lapsed into barbarism, a fictional convention that allows SF writers to espouse reactionary social values without a blush of shame. Dean Ing's recent novel for Tor, WILD COUNTRY, takes a similar tack. This book, the last in a post-apocalypse trilogy, is a meandering series of shoot-'em-up. Its hero is an assassin. The villain is a gay heroin-smuggler, as if an America devastated by nukes did not have enough problems. Ing's hasty depiction of future society is grossly inconsistent; ravaged and desperate when the plot requires desperados, yet rigidly organized when Ing suddenly remembers the existence of computers. The book is a Western, set in a West Texas conveniently returned to the robust frontier values of Judge Roy Bean. Men hold their land, with lasers if possible, while women raise corn and keep the home fires burning. Ing struggles valiantly with Texas dialect: "'Late, schmate,' growled the aging veterinarian, whose rough cattleman's lingo masked an excellent education." The book is speckled with maps, diagrams, and lectures on the Second Amendment, which, one learns, "absolutely and positively, guarantees citizens their right to keep and bear arms." Like his fellows, Ing treasures this amendment, the last remnant of the American polity that he is willing to respect. There isn't much mention of, say, voting, or separation of powers. Power resides in the barrel of a gun, preferably the largest and shiniest possible. Janet and Chris Morris, who wrote THE 40-MINUTE WAR for Baen, are down on terrorists. The politics of this book are dominated by adulation of the state of Israel, where every sabra carries a righteous submachinegun. The heroes are counterterrorist CIA assassins, whose purported fluent grasp of Arabic only fuels a xenophobic hatred of Moslem culture. They tactfully refer to their murderous work as "greasing rag-heads." The female protag is a hard-as-nails liberated journalist: "Shit, the world is ending, and you're Ms.-ing me? I'm a Miss, not a Ms., whatever that is." The prose is often clumsy, dominated by run-on sentences and misplaced clauses: "To most Foreign Service officers, even in the Mediterranean, word came earlier than it did to Marc Beck, who was babysitting a convention of genetic engineers with astronomical security clearances being held at a private estate on the Red Sea when an aide slipped him a note." This was not an oversight; it's the book's third sentence. Janet Morris is not a gifted prose stylist, but she means business. The most potent political treatise of the Disciples is a work of nonfiction by Morris, David Drake, and Congressman Newt Gingrich, the ultrarightist Golden Boy of the born-again contingent. This book, WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY, presents the straight gospel of Pournelle's private pressure group, the Citizen's Advisory Council on National Space Policy. It advocates "an effective American monopoly of space," in which laissez-faire capitalists fill orbits with "the Hiltons and Marriotts of the solar system." These space cities will be manned by Christian space-settlers, whose stern faith gives them the backbone for the frontier life. "The rise of high-tech preachers on cable television is accelerating the re-emergence of religion as a legitimate vehicle for explaining the world. Presently there will be religious software for home computers and a host of modern high-tech efforts to spread a new, electronic gospel...." With this treatise the gloves are off, and the Disciples come full-circle. This combination of 19th-century values and visionary technolatry is a potent one which, though easy to mock, is easier to underestimate. SF has power now, and it is our responsibility to see to what uses that power is put. Pournelle, as usual, has put it best, in his argument for the Strategic Defense Initiative. Peace, Prosperity, and Freedom are his watchwords. Peace: as an orbiting Pax Americana over a world requiring American tutelage. Prosperity: for high-tech asteroid-barons, who will watch the disastrous crumbling of communist society from the safety of orbit. Freedom: from any necessity of change or accommodation to other cultures. Naive space enthusiasts believe that humanity will climb into the cosmos on a Pentagon payroll. Many dislike the idea, but feel that an allegiance with the military is a small price to pay for a life of bliss in an orbiting O'Neill colony. The psychological appeal these colonies hold for us in SF is not hard to grasp. An O'Neill colony will be an airtight little world, of technically educated white Americans gazing raptly at the stars. A world soaring far above the heads of threatening mundanes. A world that is fandom's objective correlative. SF has always been publicly identified with space flight. There is no shame in that. But SDI's backers become the predominant political spokesmen for SF, we will be associated from now on with X-ray lasers. Whether we like it or not. In the final analysis, it does not matter that they write badly or that their ideas are lunatic. That has never stopped any of us. CHEAP TRUTH 809-C West 12th Street Austin, TX 78701. Vincent Omniaveritas, editing. Todd Refinery, graphics [not shown here, needless to say] NOT COPYRIGHTED ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Jun 86 0808-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #160 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 21 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 160 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Jun 86 16:16:14 GMT From: bonnie!ron@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald Zasadzinski) Subject: Re: The Elements in Tolkien's World sadoyama@pavepaws.UUCP (Eric J Sadoyama) writes: >Melkor seems to be master of both fire *and* ice. Melkor as master of heat (NOT temperature) seems more reasonable: >Manwe (?) is speaking to Ulmo, and points out to him that Melkor's >fires have caused Ulmo's water to form clouds and the rainbow, and >that Melkor's *cold* has created the snowflake. Here, Melkor uses the addition of heat to vaporize water and make clouds. He then takes away heat to crystalize the vapor into snowflakes. Thus Melkor was master of the one 'element' heat, not master of the two elements fire and ice. Disclaimer: But heat isn't an 'element' you argue? Well, it is more of an element than fire or ice: ice is just water, and fire is just material (earth) undergoing a chemical process known as combustion. There is no unique substance to 'fire' itself. Ron ihnp4!bonnie!ron ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 86 06:02:25 GMT From: ford-wdl1!jrb@caip.rutgers.edu (John R Blaker) Subject: Re: more Ringlore Mark Crispin writes: > In secret Celebrimbor, who had learned all of Sauron's >ringlore, forged the Three. These were given by him to Galadriel >(Nenya), Gil-Galad (Vilya), and the chief of the Grey Havens >(Narya) whose name escapes me right now. It was Cirdan the Shipwright. >Sauron gives his ring most of his native power, but a lot more. >Sauron's ring is totally evil (more evil than he was when he >created it) and the ring corrupts Sauron totally over the years. >This is made quite clear in the history of the Second Age. Sauron >is far more corrupt at the end of the Second Age than he was at the >forging of the rings, and more so in the Third Age. The fact that >he was bad-intentioned and powerful to begin with let him do a lot >more with the ring than any of the other possessors did; the ring >gave him power according to his stature. But the ring corrupted >him as it corrupted every other possessor. No, no, no! Sauron was NOT corrupted by the ring! To quote Elrond: ...he told of the Elven-smiths of Eregion and their friendship with Moria, and there eagerness for knowlege, by which Sauron ensnared them. For in that time he was not yet evil to behold, and they received his aid and grew mighty in craft, whereas he learned all of their secrets, and betrayed them, and forged secretly in the Mountain of Fire the One Ring to be their master. But Celebrimbor was aware of him, and hid the Three which he had made; and there was war, and the land was laid waste, and the gate of Moria was shut. Excerpted from The Council of Elrond in The Fellowship of the Ring. John R Blaker UUCP: ...!sun!wdl1!jrb (jrb@wdl1.uucp) ARPA: jrb@FORD-WDL1.ARPA and blaker@FORD-WDL2.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 86 23:03:26 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Of Rings and Things... I see someone misunderstood my posting (so what's new? I'm not certain I speak English...). So I'm about to make a complete and utter fool of myself trying to explain myself... milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes: >>The PRIMARY use, that you name above, is (all) related to moving >>the wearer into the wraiths' plane. This is its INTENDED effect >>on lesser wearers. Which is how Nazgul came about in the first >>place. > >I still maintain that the primary use of the One was to convey the >power of dominion and enslavement to its wearer. Invisibility, a >stretched lifespan, and greater contact with the wraiths' world >were, as far as I can see from Gandalf's explanations, side effects >a mortal would encounter. The only effect Sauron seems actually to >have intended on lesser users is that they be corrupted into lesser >Dark Lords themselves, perhaps a sort of booby trap for his >enemies. But is that not effectively the same thing? To exert the power of Sauron you must be in Sauron's world... i.e. the same world as the former King of Angmar and the other Wraiths. [Sauron never intended the One to fall into lesser hands, but he probably used what he learned from the Seven and the Nine in making it, so it has wraith-making capability which (in persons of greater stature) is also manifested as the ability to control: they are powerful enough to use Sauron's control channels within the Ring.] >I will recheck this, but what I remember is that knowing the minds >of others was part of the Ring's power of domination, to which >Frodo's will was naturally not trained. I also remember >Galadriel's saying that she was aware of all of Sauron's mind that >had to do with Elves, whereas she was able to obscure her own from >him. But I remember nothing about the Ring's conveying the ability >to see into his mind. To feel his presence, yes -- more on that >below -- but to see his mind, no. But I will recheck. How do you ``know'' someone's mind without reading it? Also recall toward the end of RETURN OF THE KING where Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond stand around and mindchat at each other (``If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard.... For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind...''). And those were only the Three. >Substitute the word *power* for *mind*, and I agree. It seems >clear, though, that no part of Sauron's awareness was in the Ring >-- if it had been, he would hardly have needed to have the Nazgul >scouring half Middle Earth for it. Nor does it have to be. (Actually, the closest description, based on my readings of LOTR, would be a cross between power and mind. Sauron's mind was powerful enough that he could set a large part of it into the Ring and forget about it...) >Sauron was NOT aware of its approach at all -- if he had been, >Frodo and Sam's journey into Mordor would have been terminally >interrupted very quickly. The Ring certainly seemed to become more >aware, and became an increasing torment to Frodo, mind as well as >body. I never said he could PINPOINT it. But he was DEFINITELY aware that some great power was approaching his realm. No doubt when Aragorn revealed himself to Sauron, his suspicions were allayed until too late. It WAS mentioned a number of times, however, that Sauron and his servants could feel the power of the Ring, and demonstrated that they could not pinpoint it even up close (else Frodo would have been caught immediately in Gorgoroth; the King of Angmar could feel the Ring nearby but couldn't tell quite where). >Again, I see no indication that the Ring touched Sauron's mind at >all -- he probably wished it did. What I do see is that whenever >Frodo put it on (at least, when past Lorien), it seemed to start to >respond to Sauron's call to it -- in fact, on Amon Hen, it very >nearly had the opportunity to give him away altogether. But here, >as above, it seems that the Ring was aware of Sauron, but not the >reverse. I interpreted it as: Sauron felt the Ring and was able to begin pinpointing its location, but Gandalf attracted his location while telling Frodo to take the Ring off; when he did, Sauron could no longer pinpoint it. The Ring is poweful but requires a mind in living circuit with it to set its power loose (doesn't that sound familiar? :-). So someone had to be wearing it before Sauron or the Nazgul could do anything more than be aware that there was a lot of power somewhere nearby. Of course, I may revise this in another reading. I've been through the books nine times and STILL I'm finding things... Brandon ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 86 13:08:10 GMT From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Another variety of stuff >1) The Elves produce, BY THEMSELVES, the three elven Rings: Narya, > Vilya, and Anya(?). Nenya. These were, respectively, the Ring of Fire (or the Red Ring), the Ring of Air (or the Ring of Sapphire), and the Ring of Water (or the Ring of Adamant), and were borne by Mithrandir/Gandalf (who received it from Cirdan the Shipwright), Elrond (who received it from Gil-galad), and Galadriel. They were forged by Celebrimbor, and Sauron never even touched them. dobro@ulowell.UUCP (Chet Dobro) writes: >Just a reminder - remeber the words of the verse: [omitted] Doesn't >it seem to imply that instead of twenty (7+3+9+1) rings, there are >21?! And that the 'Ruling Ring' was crafted to rule the other 20, >including one weilded by sauron? (another one.) Not to me. The two lines you stress are simply elaborating on the attributes of the One. (-: Hey, by extrapolating along those lines, there might actually be _four_ "Ones"! :-) Besides, no mention is ever made of there being another One, which would hardly be likely if such existed. pH ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 86 03:10:57 GMT From: ulowell!dobro@caip.rutgers.edu (Chet Dobro) Subject: Re: Of rings Brandon Allbery writes: >Other abilities, which Frodo was NOT strong wnough to use, included >the ability to read minds (especially the minds of other >Ring-wielders, INCLUDING Sauron. Re-read the sequence where Frodo >discovers that Galadriel is wearing the Elven-ring. Another point in my favor that Sauron had another ring besides the Ruling Ring. Phone: (617) 937-0551 USMail: P.O.Box 8524 Lowell, Ma. 01853 E-Mail: ...!decvax!wanginst!ulowell!dobro ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 86 14:45:54 PDT From: Chris McMenomy Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #152 Erich Rickheit writes: >....Eru never meddled in the affairs of Middle-Earth once it was >fully made. In the context of his argument that there was no "Overlord" ring. While I agree that the One Ring is Sauron's Ring, this assumption is a little off. Illuvitar's continued interest and even intervention in the affairs of the world are demonstrated several times after the Valar begin to shape it: 1. The Elves and Men are directly Illuvitar's creations. The Valar do not know when they are supposed to appear and are constantly awaiting them, even while battling with Melkor. Part of the Valar's anticipation is whetted by the desire to know more about Illuvitar, and while the design of Arda is mostly their own, (although brought to realization by Illuvitar's creative power -- the Secret Flame) , they have had no participation in the creation of "Children of Illuvitar" at all. Hence Elves and Men will reveal to the Valar more about Illuvitar and his plans. Of course, I suppose you can be picky and say that the clause "once it was fully made" includes the period at least up to the coming of the Elves and Men. 2. At the time of Ar-Pharazon the Golden, when the Numenoreans attempted to land on Aman the Blessed, the "Valar gave up their guardianship and called upon the One". This implies first that Illuvitar was still the ultimate authority and overseer of Arda, since the Valar are only Guardians of the world; secondly, and more importantly, Illuvitar is the agent for the destruction of Numenor. It is not the Valar who cast it into the sea and reform the lands, but the One. So at least once Illuvitar meddles fairly significantly in the affairs of Middle Earth after it has been created. 3. There are hints at a guiding power for good in LotR. Gandalf says at one point "All I can say is that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker". He is clearly implying that Someone is helping the good guys. It can't be the Valar, for they have laid down their guardianship and meddle in the affairs of Middle Earth only through human agents like the Istari, by persuasion and not by force. It would seem then, that Illuvitar does meddle, drastically and subtly, with affairs in Middle Earth; the occassions are few, or perhaps so seeminingly insignificant as to be unidentifiable. (Gandalf may see the hand of the One in Bilbo's finding the Ring, but the hobbit certainly didn't). But they do happen. And there is the promise, in the Valaquenta, that Illuvitar has the final hand in summing up the themes of Men, Elves, Valar and even Melkor, to the ultimate realization. Christe McMenomy Rand Corp. christe%rondo@rand-unix.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 86 21:19:43 -0800 From: Alastair Milne Subject: Re: Of rings Chet Dobro writes: >Three rings for the Elven Kings under the sky, > Seven for the Dwarf Lords in their halls of stone, >Nine for the mortal men, doomed to die, > One for the Dark lord, on his dark throne. > > One Ring to rule THEM all, on ring to find THEM, > One ring to bring THEM all, and in the darkness bind THEM. >Pardon the emphasis in the second stanza, but that is my point. >Doesn't it seem to imply that instead of twenty (7+3+9+1) rings, >there are 21?! And that the 'Ruling Ring' was crafted to rule the >other 20, including one weilded by sauron? (another one.) This conclusion doesn't seem to stand up either in the histories of Middle Earth or in Sauron's logic. What is the point of his having a Ring of Power ruled by a second Ring of Power? His only reason for the Rings at all was to enslave their wearers -- what could possibly be the point of having something of his own enslaved (even worse if that thing had a hold on him)? And the histories, while speaking of the Three, the Seven, the Nine, and the One, say nothing about any other Ring, and certainly not one superior to these 20. Beyond and above all this, I know that the fate of all Middle Earth was not balanced on Sauron's possible discovery of simply another of the 20. The 2 lines you've separated from the others simply qualify the fourth line: the verse doesn't tell us what the Three, the Seven, and the Nine were for, but it tells us horrifically what the One was for. I grant that the reference of "them" is not 100.00% clear, but that's the way it is with poetry. Personally, I think "them" and "them all" in those two lines has a double meaning: it refers to the other Rings, certainly, but I think it also refers to those who wear them, and those who follow the wearers: hence the horror of the verse. I also think the fourth line and the couplet are associated by this parallelism: One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne In the Land of Morder where the Shadows lie. One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all, and in the Darkness bind them In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. I have separated them to emphasise where the punctuation is. Also, notice that the indentation makes the repeated phrase more prominent. A small point, and I'm sure it's debatable, but I don't think it's an accident. Well, you asked for comments. I hope I haven't given you too much more than you wanted. Great discussion! Let's keep it up! Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 86 22:10:48 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Rings (again...) dobro@ulowell.UUCP (Chet Dobro) writes: >>Brandon Allbery continues: >>Other abilities, which Frodo was NOT strong enough to use, >>included the ability to read minds (especially the minds of other >>Ring-wielders, INCLUDING Sauron. Re-read the sequence where Frodo >>discovers that Galadriel is wearing the Elven-ring. > >Another point in my favor that Sauron had another ring besides the >Ruling Ring. Sauron was (1) wearing the Nine (see earlier postings), and (2) since his power and ``mind'' were in the One, which controlled the others, he could be read by any wearer of the Rings of Power. Brandon ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Jun 86 0821-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #161 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 23 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 161 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Card (2 msgs) & Gibson & Heinlein & Herbert & Spider Robinson & Spinrad & Williams & Recycling Dead & Author Request, Films - Aliens (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - Westercon & Biological Warfare ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Jun 86 14:25:38 PDT From: raoul@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA Subject: Piers Anthony I just finished Piers Anthony's "Prostho Plus". Good stuff. I decided to read this book from a recommendation from this list. I have a couple questions : 1) Is there a sequel to this book? Evidently there is enough loose ends to make another book. 2) How did PA ever come up with this story with dentists? In other words, what's the story behind the story? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 86 22:25:58 EDT From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: Ender's Game short story To: "BOYAJIAN@AKOV68.DEC.COM"@AI.AI.MIT.EDU, To: MAPS.CS.CMU.EDU!YAMAUCHI@AI.AI.MIT.EDU From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com >It also appeared in Card's collection UNACCOMPANIED SONATA AND >OTHER STORIES, which, though out of print, is most probably easier >to find in a used-bookstore or in your local library. It also appears in volume 1 of Pournelle's anthology _There will be War_. Keith ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 86 06:18:05 GMT From: hoptoad!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: morality in "Ender's Game" My feeling is that anyone who wants to debate the morality of "Ender's Game" should definitely read "Speaker For the Dead" first. The two books are considerably more than just a book and its sequel. Card has stated that he wrote Speaker first, and then had to write Ender's 'cause people wouldn't know what he was talking about... (this is in the nature of a rumor, but it makes a lot of sense when you read the books) Mike Farren hoptoad!farren ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 86 20:51:36 GMT From: tekecs!mikes@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael Sellers) Subject: Re: A film of "Neuromancer"? (really Burning Chrome Subject: Microreview) > Burning Chrome is available from Arbor House in hardback only. Really? I read this story some time back in _Omni_ magazine...I don't think it was a condensation or anything either. I also recall reading in the same magazine another story by the same author, or at least it was in the same universe. It had to do with a guy who made rings the wearing of which would allow you to experience whatever he had while wearing it, and his desire to enhance his experience by getting some Zeiss- Ikon ocular implants (or somesuch; it's been a while). I remember liking both stories immensely. It gave me much the same feeling (as others have said) that Bladerunner did, even without the benefit of a Tangerine Dream soundtrack :-). > Buy it anyway. It is well worth the money. This a collection of > all of Gibson's short fiction (i.e. everything except Neuromancer > and Count Zero), and there is not a bad story in the bunch. In > fact, the majority of the stories are some of the best short SF I > have ever read. > > If you are a fan of William Gibson, run, do not walk, to the > nearest bookstores and search for this book. If you are a fan of > hard science SF, or a fan of literary (new wave) SF, or just a fan > of good SF, this book is highly recommended. > > On a scale of -4 to +4, I give this a +4. I wouldn't have reprinted all of the above except that from what I have read of Gibson's work, I heartily agree. Is Neuromancer as good and/or in the same universe as his other stories? What about Count Zero and his other works? Mike Sellers UUCP: {any backbone site}tektronix!tekecs!mikes ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 86 22:15:16 GMT From: ihnp1!ami@caip.rutgers.edu (Ami Meganathan) Subject: Lazarus Long Is Lazarus Long in any book other than Methusaleh's Children and Time Enough for Love? If he is in a short story, could someone tell me in what book it's in. Please post the answer, don't mail it. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 86 14:29:57 GMT From: houligan!bseymour@caip.rutgers.edu (Burch Seymour) Subject: Herbert, Frank >David Albrecht writes... > Personally, I think that Herbert only two books that were worth >keeping (and I keep alot of pretty borderline stuff). Dune and >The Godmakers. Given how lousy everything else he wrote was I >have always been amazed how good Dune was. I too always wondered about that. I've read about 15 Herbert books that ranged from Great!!! (_Dune_) to worse than bad (_Destination_Void_). I often speculated that Dune was written by someone else and published under Herberts name, since nothing else he had written was close. I finally found out that _Dune_ was written for John Campbell, who (or so I am led to believe) spent a lot of time working on the plot and characters with Herbert. I am also told that Campbell rejected the sequel. Given Campbell's reputation for inspiring great writing this makes a great deal of sense. Anyone else out there have more details on this??? I'm working from old and sketchy memories. Burch Seymour Gould C.S.D. ....mcnc!rti-sel!gould!bseymour ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 86 09:04:46 PDT From: chuq@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Callahan's Secret > Hasn't anyone else seen this one on the shelves yet?? In the > foreword, Spider Robinson attempts to make two things very clear. I bought mine less than a week ago, so it must have been on the shelves no more than two weeks. It has four stories in it. Two of them are simply wonderful (_Blacksmith's Tale_ and _Pyotr's Story_, my favorite) and there is simply a great cover on it. The final story _The Mick of Time_ is rotten and sends the series off on a very ambiguous and sour note. The good stories definitely outweigh the screwed up ending of the series. chuq ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 86 11:18:47 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: short story inquiry answered (probably for the 20th time) Not "Canceroma Angels"; it's "Carcinoma Angels", by Norman Spinrad, first printed in DANGEROUS VISIONS. Subsequently printed in (I think) Spinrad's collection THE LAST HURRAH OF THE GOLDEN HORDE, and in a number of other places. A good story, although hardly as shocking as Spinrad thought it was then (-"Nobody writes a story about cancer. Cancer is the one remaining unmentionable. The thought of your own body going mad and turning against you revolts most people"- [freely borrowed from Spinrad's intro in DV]) ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 86 14:43:00 GMT From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: THE BREAKING OF NORTHWALL by Paul O. Williams (mild spoiler) The jacket reads: "To the Pelbar, the sentence seemed a living death -- exile to distant Northwall for a year, isolated from the security and order of Pelbarigan society, facing the barbarian tribes of the Shumai and Sentani. But the rebellious Jestak embraced his punishment -- for only with the lore of Northwall and the battlecraft and bravery of the wild tribes could he accomplish what he sought. The woman he loved was a captive in Emerta, fabled city of the slaveholding Emeri. Jestak meant to free her -- and, if he had to, destroy utterly the power of the Emeri." This is another instance in which the jacket summary probably wasn't written by a person who had read the book. Perhaps someone gave this person a three minute precis, from which the teaser was written. The book is a lot more interesting and complex than the jacket makes it out to be. Jestak doesn't know where his girl friend is when he goes to Northwall, and he's never heard of Emerta. The location is central United States, and the time is some hundreds of years in the future, after a nuclear war has killed most of the population and destroyed all large cities. Different cultures have sprung up, each having different levels of technology and different mores. The Pelbar are the most sophisticated from a technological standpoint, but they tend to isolate themselves in a couple of strongholds. The Shumai and the Sentani are Indian-like groups that fight each other and the Pelbar except during truce weeks. Jestak is an unorthodox Pelbar: he has a taste for the open spaces and the knack for landing on his feet in bad situations. Previous to this story he had a number of adventures, the outcome of which is that he is a blood brother to one of the Sentani tribes. You never know what you'll get in a novel about post nuclear war Earth. This one is pretty good. Though Jestak's ability to make peace between warring groups is, perhaps, a little hard to swallow, I liked the character very much, and I got caught up in the adventure. Once the story gets started, it doesn't slow down. I give this book 3.5 stars out of 4.0: it's very good. I'll keep it and look for more books by this author. Duane Morse ...!noao!{mot|terak}!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 86 16:30:54 edt From: jbvb@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (James B. VanBokkelen) Subject: Recycling the Dead I was recently reading one of the "heros in hell" stories, and felt a considerable flash of annoyance over the recycling of historic personalities. When Farmer first (?) did it in _Riverworld_, it was interesting, but he kind of wore it out (to me anyway) with the continual flashbacks to Richard Burton's past in the later volumes. Now, this set of authors seems to be well on the road to assembling "Greatest Hit Characters from the Written Word, 4000 BC to Date". It annoys me for the following reasons: First, it only rarely conveys any particularly useful historical information; Farmer had definitely read at least one Burton biography, but everything had been filtered first by the biographer's viewpoint, and then by Farmer's. The end result is usually mis-information on one level or another, just like the pseudo-history doled out by the trashy novels section in the supermarket. Second, I feel it encourages a sort of lazy plagarism among authors. "Hmmm, let's see, I need a swashbuckling adventurer here, where's the _Biographical Dictionary_..." I *don't* want the author depending on my having heard of Julius Caesar so that he can assume I'll extrapolate what I know into a complete character. Third, I feel that it can be somewhat insulting to the memory of the historical personage so plagarized - let their own works, and those of their contemporaries illustrate their nature, not the SF author's frequently unimaginative projection of their responses to contrived situations. jbvb@ai.ai.mit.edu James B. VanBokkelen ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 1986 13:16-PDT Subject: Query-Tucson author From: WILBUR@OFFICE-2.ARPA I was recently in Tucson and while talking with a fellow librarian learned that there is a woman science fiction author (or mystery writer) living in Tucson but he and I could not think of who it might be. Does anyone on the Net know? Thanks, Faye (Wilbur@Office-2) ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 86 15:53:57 EDT From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: ALIENS Rick Shieve (ihnp4!ihu1g!rls) writes: >I read a little movie go'ers article about S. Weaver (I know I'd >botch the first name spelling) making the sequel to "ALIEN", titled >"ALIENS". Ripley's story about the planet is not believed and she >returns for some evidence with some help and high tech weapons. >Anyone heard any more details. I doubt if a sequel can top the >first... By now, as you may or may not know, the novilisation of ALIENS once again penned by Alan Dean Foster is lurking in the shelves of your local bookstores. It will of course, answer any and all questions you might have concerning the movie. The book itself is quite good, although I am not sure now whether I should have read it before the movie's release. Oh well. If the movie is anywhere near as good as the book promises then we are all in for a treat (or a scare as the case may be). Stephen Pearl Pearl@Blue.Rutgers.Edu ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 86 18:16:33 GMT From: gouldsd!mjranum@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Sequel to ALIEN - ALIENS I read the trashy Dean Foster writeup of the plot. It doesn't seem *too* awful, but it sounds like it's a *LOT* more violent than ALIEN. that's right kiddies.... Again, the *corporation* are total bastards and betray everyone, but that's ok. I'd say it's not a bad sequel, but it too closely parellels #1. And a 3rd part would entail blowing up the universe to kill all the aliens. (that's a clue, folks) M J Ranum ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 86 09:20:30 PDT (Thursday) From: Morrill.PA@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Sequel to ALIEN - ALIENS I saw the paperback in a book store with all the standard movie credits on the back cover. The blurb said it's about S. Weaver (I forget the character's name) going back to fight the entire planet of aliens before they decide to come to Earth for dinner. Toby ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 86 13:49:54 CDT From: Rich Zellich To: lewey!evp@RU-CAIP.ARPA Subject: Re: "@!%.::" party at Westercon? Ed Post asks: >Where is Westercon this year? July 3-6, 1986 (California, Southern) HALLEYCON/WESTERCON 39. Town and Country Hotel, 500 Hotel Circle North/P.O. Box 80098, San Diego, CA 92138 ($58 sngl, $70 dbl, $12 per extra person). GoH: David Brin; FGoH: Karen Turner; TM: Greg Bear. 5 Track Programming: The Worlds of Fandom (Art, Zines, Special-Interest Groups); The Land of Hard Science (NASA, JPL, L-5, The R.H. Fleet Space Theatre); The Lands of Horror and Fantasy; The Usual Outstanding Film and Video Programming; The UNEXPECTED event...yes, even planned for this...anything can go here! And the usual gamut of events: masquerade, trivia bowl, Readings, Promotions, Local Clubs, Helpful classes, Useful Hints, and Worthwile Information. Memb: Supporting $10; Attending $15 thru 31 Dec 84, $20 thru 30 Jun 85, $25 thru 31 Oct 85, $30 thru 27 Feb 86, $35 thru 31 May 86, then higher at the door; supporters can convert to attending for $10 less than the attending rate at the time of conversion; $5 for kids (under 12) in tow. Dealer Tbls: $45/tbl & option to buy 2 memb's @ at $15 each (incl. 1 free memb. or $10 refund to site selection voters until 31 Oct 86); *Sold out* as of November 15, 1985, and there is a waiting list. Art Show: $5 per panel (you can hang as many or as few pieces as you wish), 10% commission on sales; display cases will be available on an as-needed basis, but please write as soon as possible. Info: Westercon 39, P.O. Box 81285, San Diego, CA 92138. [the above extracted from publicly-accessible SRI-NIC file CONS.TXT] See you there, Rich ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 86 18:30:56 -0500 From: Aimee Yermish Subject: biological warfare between humans Brad Templeton writes: >In man's wars, we always have the same biology as our opponent, and >this limits the chemical and biological weapons we can use. . . >making a plague to kill all mankind would be much easier than >making one that kills selectively or dies out quickly. Such a >plague would be useless to us, but a fine weapon for aliens. Hate to tell you this, but it is not all that difficult to make a biological nasty that is resistant to the antibiotics and vaccines that are produced widely enough to protect a whole population. Now, if country X protects its population (or crops) because it knows what will be effective, and then spreads the nasty, well, I think you can see what happens. Aimee ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Jun 86 0854-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #162 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 23 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 162 Today's Topics: Books - Baum & Bradley & Garrett & Gibson & Heinlein & Herbert (2 msgs) & Hogan & Spider Robinson (2 msgs) & Streiber Miscellaneous - Repopulating Earth ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Jun 86 17:10:53 GMT From: valid!jao@caip.rutgers.edu (John Oswalt) Subject: Oz books Jimmy Chen wrote: > Does anyone out there in net.land have a complete list > of the Wizard of Oz books? If so please email it to me. I tried email, but it bounced back (there were about 20 nodes in the path, and it got through about 7 of them); however, the subject seems to me to be of wider interest, so I am posting my reply: L. Frank Baum wrote 14 Oz books; after his death the series was continued by various others: I remember as a child reading 38 of them. The Baum books are the best: The Wizard of Oz (original title: The Wonderful Wizard of Oz) The Land of Oz (original title: The Marvelous Land of Oz) Ozma of Oz Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz The Road to Oz The Emerald City of Oz The Patchwork Girl of Oz Tik Tok of Oz The Scarecrow of Oz Rinkitink of Oz The Lost Princess of Oz The Tin Woodman of Oz The Magic of Oz Glinda of Oz I read all the Oz books when I was aged about 7 to 10, and this is the best time to read them. I recently (I'm now 30) re-read Ozma of Oz and the Patchwork Girl of Oz. I am happy to report that they are still quite good, and I intend to re-read the whole series. If you have children, I think that starting them on Oz books is the best thing you could do to instill in them a love of books and a healthy imagination. John Oswalt (..!{hplabs,amd,pyramid,ihnp4}!pesnta!valid!jao) ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 86 20:00:05 GMT From: hope!corwin@caip.rutgers.edu (John Kempf) Subject: Re: darkover... From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU > I just finished "Darkover Landfall" by marion Zimmer Bradley and > enjoyed it alot. However, when I went to the bookstore, I found > tens of Darkover titles and no idea which book comes next. Can > someone post a chronological listing of all the Darkover books and > maybe some sort of rating system? Any help would be most > appreciated. After Darkover Landfall, with a couple of exceptions, order is mostly a matter of opinion, and therefore highly illusory. I know that I read them out of order, but that didn't detract from them. just grab a dozen at random and enjoy! cory VOICE: (714) 788 0709 UUCP: {ucbvax!ucdavis,sdcsvax,ucivax}!ucrmath!hope!corwin ARPA: ucrmath!hope!corwin@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu USNAIL: 3637 Canyon Crest apt G302 Riverside Ca. 92507 ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 86 14:26:30 GMT From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: STARSHIP DEATH by Randall Garrett (mild spoiler) The jacket reads: "They were in deep space, past the point of no return, when the saboteur struck. There were plenty of suspects, including an experimental robot, and many possible motivations. But when they found the first body, they knew they were facing a ruthless killer who would murder them all if he was not caught -- and blow up the ship if he was." Based on the summary above and my familiarity with the author's Lord Darcy detective SF novels, I started reading this book, expecting a nice mystery, different, perhaps, than the Lord Darcy genre, but still of a high caliber. I was very disappointed. The book has a short introduction by someone other than the author; a little information about Randall Garrett is given, and a comment is made which leads one to believe that the book is of somewhat recent vintage: the writer states that the climax of the book has elements in common with the recent Star Trek movie. Well, the copyright is 1962, so a lot of time passed between writing and publishing. The story starts out quite well. The main character, Mike "the Angel" Gabriel, is introduced. He runs his own high technology engineering company and is a hulk of a man. The time and place are not-too-distant future US. Before long Mike joins a spacecraft crew to take an experimental robot to an isolated planet, and that's when I started losing interest. There are a number of problems with the plot and the characters. There are two conflicting plots, one having to do with the robot, and the other having to do with sabotage on the spaceship. Instead of supporting each other, the two themes dilute interest and suspense. The characters are somewhat poorly drawn, and I didn't develop much of an interest in any of them. I like the way the author attempted to explain some of the technology involved, but the three parts -- plot, character development, and technology -- just didn't hang together very well. Much as I enjoyed the Lord Darcy books, I can only give this book 2.0 stars out of 4.0 (its fair, but I went through the second half somewhat fast just so I could finish it). Duane Morse ...!noao!{mot|terak}!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 86 18:52:43 GMT From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) Subject: Re: A film of "Neuromancer"? (really Burning Chrome Subject: Microreview) mikes@tekecs writes: >Is Neuromancer as good and/or in the same universe as his other >stories? What about Count Zero and his other works? Yes, both Neuromancer and Count Zero are set in the Gibson's Sprawl universe, and both are excellent. Neuromancer won the Hugo, Nebula, and Philip Dick Awards for best novel, evidently the first time this has ever happened. Count Zero is set in the future after Neuromancer, and some of the events in Neuromancer have a direct effect on the plot of Count Zero. Therefore, I would recommend reading Neuromancer first. However, Count Zero isn't really a sequel, so reading it first will have won't spoil the plot that badly for Neuromancer. Brian Yamauchi Carnegie-Mellon University Computer Science Department ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu BITNET: q110by04@cmccvc DECNET: by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 86 15:33:20 GMT From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (S. Luke Jones) Subject: Re: Lazarus Long (contains spoiler) > Is Lazarus Long in any book other than Methusaleh's Children and > Time Enough for Love? If he is in a short story, could someone > tell me in what book it's in. Please post the answer, don't mail > it. He's also in _The Number of the Beast_ and _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_, although he is the main character of neither. S. Luke Jones AT&T Information Systems Middletown, New Jersey ...ihnp4!mtung!slj ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 86 14:54:42 GMT From: mruxe!ajb@caip.rutgers.edu (A J Burstein) Subject: Re:Re:: FOOTFALL (spoilers follow) >Researchers developed a chemical which interfered with the >screwflies pheromones in such a way that they couldn't mate >properly. The aliens used a similar technique to eliminate humans; >they developed a pheromone that caused men to violently hate women. >(This hate got rationalized into religious fervor, an interesting >touch). Eventually, every woman on Earth got killed, leaving one >generation of men to die out, and our aliens have a nice clean >world. This is similar to what Frank Herbert did in _The White Plague_ . ***Spoiler to follow**** A mad human scientist develops a plague to kill off all human women. Eventually, only a few survive and they have to repopulate the earth, (as well as trying to please a few billion men). If alien invaders tried this approach, they would not have to be 100% succesful. If only a few women (or men) survived, the human population would be devastated in a few generations and we could put up little organized resistance. Andy Burstein ihnp4!mruxe!ajb ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 86 14:46:09 GMT From: hound!rfg@caip.rutgers.edu (R.GRANTGES) Subject: Re: Herbert, Frank I believe your information is correct as far as it goes. And I share your opinion of much of what Herbert wrote in his later years. But, you shouldn't throw out all of Herbert's works unread. Try "Dragon in the Sea", originally published as "Under Pressure." THat was probably also a Campbell vetted Herbert story, and was superb! In my memory it stands as probably the best thing he ever wrote. Dick Grantges hound!rfg ------------------------------ Date: Sun 22 Jun 86 20:08:27-PDT From: Evan Kirshenbaum Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #154 Cc: woody@JULIET.CALTECH.EDU >I envision an advanced race of humans in a far off star, and >finding this _HUGH_ (in their standards) ship with a whole bunch of >dead humans, dead by violent (sp?) means. The humans at this far >off star are convinced that they are the only race of humans, and >when finding this ship of death, they go nuts. Where'd it come >from? What's its purpose? Why did all those people die? Forgive me if this has been answered (I just got back from a week's vacation). Hogan's Inherit_the_Stars is based on a similar premise (although the humans don't go nuts, they just find a plausible (though slightly incorrect) explanation. evan evan@csli.stanford.edu (evan@su-csli.arpa) ...!ucbvax!decvax!decwrl!glacier!evan ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 86 08:44:59 GMT From: jablow@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Eric Robert Jablow) Subject: Re: how Spider Robinson ruined Calahan's Place for me (mild Subject: spoiler) Actually, I'm suspicious of everything Mr. Robinson does. I mean, the only thing I like about his Callahan stories are the puns. I'm tired of his habit of asking the reader to like a character because he has the right hobbies. I don't like the way he deals with sex. And I hate his plagiarism. Tell me, is there anyone else on the net who thought that STARDANCE was just a rip-off of A CHORUS LINE? After all, you have the dance company, with a man with a knee injury, a driven woman, a wholesome woman, a man who just decided to take up dancing on a whim, and two gay men; crucially, you have a woman who can't get a job because she has the wrong build--she's too big-boned, and her breasts are the wrong shape. Now, does anybody remember Pamela Blair (Val) and the song she sings about the same situation? But after a while I caugt on. I mean, I knew what they were hiring. And I swiped a look at my dance card after an audition once. And it said: For Dance 10, Looks 3. Well, Dance 10, Looks 3, Dancing for my own enjoyment, Still collecting unemployment, [I may be mistaken about this] That ain't it kid. That ain't it kid. Dance 10, Looks 3. It's like to die. Left the theater, called my doctor, for my appointment to buy... [Dance 10, Looks 3--A Chorus Line] I'll stop here; I'd have to rot13 the rest of the song. But can anyone tell me why Shara didn't "Grab a cab, come on, see the wizard of Park and Seventy-third," for appropiate plastic surgery? Women have breast augumentations (as in Val's case) done all the time. They even have breast reductions (as would be appropiate for Shara) done all the time too. Yes, elective plastic surgery is not "natural" and not "wholesome", but then making a sex-for-money deal with an executive, getting oneself crippled in space, and nearly committing suicide is even less "natural" and "wholesome". And this story was set in the near future;plastic surgery would be obvious even without a famous Broadway musical to provide the suggestion. More on why I hate Spider Robinson's work later. Respectfully, Eric Robert Jablow MSRI ucbvax!brahms!jablow ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 86 19:27:17 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: How Spider Robinson ruined Callahan's Place for me (mild Subject: spoiler) No, I'm not talking about his "down-in-flames" syndrome in the latest collection. No, not the preachy attitude the stories ooze. No, not the overly simplistic pop psychology. No, I can put up with all of that, and even learn to like it. No problem. But *GIVE* me the *LARGEST* possible *BREAK*, did he *REALLY* have to blame the accident that killed Jake's family on a faceless "spear-carrier" character? One of the charming things about Callahan's was that folks there eventually learned to live with guilt and imperfection of all kinds. The message of this uncalled-for subplot resolution is that you *CAN'T* live with guilt... the only way out, the only way to ever feel good about yourself again is to *NOT* *BE* *GUILTY*. Somehow, someway, it *HAS* to be *SOMEBODY* *ELSE*'s fault, or you have to feel like *SLIME* the rest of your life. You can't just gain perspective on the situation and learn to live with it, oh no, either you weren't guilty, or you are slime. A real nice message to leave us with, Spider. Great job. Sheesh. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: Sun 22 Jun 86 01:58:41-PDT From: James McGrath Subject: Wolf of Shadows From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) >(On WOLF OF SHADOWS) Unfortunately, the result seems to be a novel >that is unrelentingly depressing. .... But I also think it >provides too fatalistic a view--the point-of-view character cannot >do anything to influence the course of events that is destroying >his world. The problem is that the book appears to be a book With A Message - nuclear war is bad. Like so many political tracts, it suffers dramatically. Jim PS The NY Times just reported that the original Science report on Nuclear Winter was a vast overestimate of its effects. More detailed models show temperature drops of 15 or so degress (as opposed to 45 degrees) lasting a couple of months (as opposed to a year). And that is the worse case (summer attack, readings in the heartland). While Nuclear Winter seems to be real, and will contribute to the damage already suffered, it is not nearly as devastating as it has been believed (certainly not a race exterminator/ecology destroyer). An interesting fact is that the scientists were reluctant to publish their results because they were politically incorrect. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 86 17:32:17 GMT From: netexa!elw@caip.rutgers.edu (E. L. Wiles) Subject: Re: FOOTFALL (Really: Could one man & woman repopulate?) Erich Rickheit writes: > Incidentally, I don't think you'd have to kill off _all_ > the women; I think there's some point at which the base population > is too small for growth; I don't know what it might be. This is a > point I'm interested in-- is is possible for one Adam and one Eve > to have populated the Earth? Considering what little I know about genetics, they'd either have to have perfectly clean genes, or accept that their children are going to have a huge number of genetic defects show up when they breed brother to sister! Incest would be a necessity in this case, as you have specified One man and One woman to start with. Their children would either breed together or with the parents. (A distasteful idea, especialy due to the likely high number of birth defects that would show up.) However, to argue the other side: Assuming that a 'sufficent' number of grandchildren were clean of defects, the gene pool would be that much cleaner. That appears to be a plus for inbreeding. In fact, live stock breeders do just this to clean out the bad genes, preventing them from showing up later in the line. (I still don't like the idea..) I know I'm going to get flamed, this topic has religous connotations to no end! At least try to make them entertaining! :-) E. L. Wiles @ NetExpress Comm. Inc. Vienna, Virginia. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Jun 86 0911-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #163 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 23 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 163 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (6 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Jun 86 22:13:47 -0800 From: Alastair Milne Subject: Re: The One Ring From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) > Close, but the Three had one more purpose, *preservation* of >things the bearer cared about. This is in fact useful as a srot of >weapon. Also knowledge itself is a weapon, which is another >principle purpose of the Three. About preservation: quite correct; it had slipped my mind. Which it shouldn't have, really, since it was perhaps the dearest to the Elves -- to be able to keep all that the loved about Middle Earth unstained forever. Which of course they couldn't do, and that was one of their greatest sadnesses. I was thinking of the word "weapon" in a more offensive sense. While the Three might prevent Sauron from discovering where his enemies were, or what their thought were, and while they would quicken the healing from his damage, they could not equip armies or launch assaults. They were like shields, or walls, or medicine, which may be considered "weapons" from a certain point of view. None of them would knock a Balrog off its feet, for instance. > The maintenance of Lorien against outside forces, and even the >ravages of time, was based on the power of the Ring of Adamant. >Thus it was a powerful weapon indeed, keeping Orcs out and >preventing decay over a large area. My opinion is that it was Galadriel's own power, as the greatest Noldorin princess in Middle Earth and a kinswoman of Feanor himself, that was the basis of Lorien's defence, and that she used the Ring to amplify and broaden it. But it certainly didn't keep Orcs out of Lorien! Remember the troop that invaded by night, almost under the very trees where the hobbits were sleeping? It was Elven bows that dealt with them. I certainly agree, though, that it must have been Nenya which, amplifying the natural beneficial effect of the Elves on their surroundings, made Lorien seem a living, breathing corner of the Elder Days. >It also my opinion that much of Elrond's wisdom came through his >Ring of Power, and he was a major leader and bulwark against evil >in the north of Middle Earth. Interesting. I would have said that Elrond's wisdom was earned through his own experiences: the son of Earendil, and the brother of the first king of Numenor. But, as Aragorn said, "that does not make what you say untrue", since Elrond was certainly a bearer of a Ring and, as he himself said, they were all at work. And the more I think of it, the more evidence seems to be on your side, since Cirdan the Shipwright was said to be the wisest of all the Wise, yet he remained in the Havens, and played almost no part. >It is an open question just how much of Gandalf's power over flame >came from the knowledge and support given by the Ring of Fire. But >if it did indeed help him in this way, it was part or what he used >against the Balrog. I think the arguments associating Narya with Gandalf's command of fire are astray. In the Tale of Years (one of LotR's appendices), the chronology of the Third Age begins with an account of Cirdan's words to Gandalf when he yielded Narya. I don't remember it all, but the most explicit part says that the Ring will help Gandalf raise flagging hearts, and I think that was the true aim of Narya: to build morale and cooperation, and keep grief from incapacitating people. Remember, too, that all the Istari had their special skills, yet they didn't have Rings. If any artifact was needed for their powers, it was their staffs. Certainly Gandalf's did its fair share. > ... it was not until Lorien that Frodo truly became aware of the >power of the Ring except theoretically. Thus it would be hard to >tell just how much it was increasing in power. He became aware of its power dramatically under Weathertop, when he alone could see more of the Nazgul than just holes in the night. And he became more aware in Bree of its tendency to give you away unexpectedly. But I agree with your conclusion. As with the world around us, the evidence one would like to see stubbornly refuses to stand up and be counted. Until its power increase became dramatic, it was hard to tell whether it was happending at all. > . . . In that case Frodo's perception of Galadriel's Ring and >her secret desires was the first sign of the increase in the power >of the One Ring, since he managed to do so in *spite* of the power >of Galadriel and the supression of other powers! You seem very much to want to attribute everything to Rings!:) A major point of the scene at the Mirror of Galadriel, so it seemed to me, was that Frodo had matured considerably, gaining wisdom of his own. And while he had gathered more about Galadriel than would most, I think if he actually had seen her hidden desires, he would never have taken the risk of offering her the One. Let her be tested in some other way, not with the safety of all Middle Earth. But in fact, he was so impressed with her power, wisdom, and grace, that he believed the Ring could actually safely be given to her, that it would be safer than with him. I must say, though, that Galadriel's own words seem to interpret things differently. She seemed to believe he was testing her, a "gentle revenge" for her testing his resolve, and that he had indeed seen her thoughts. I don't know what the answer is here. >>One of the few tactical advantages the Elves had over Sauron was >>Galadriel's power, which could discern his mind even while it >>concealed those of the Elves from him. >And where did this power come from? I say it came from her Ring! And I say it was intrinsic to her as one of the greatest of the Noldor, though amplified and extended by the Ring. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 86 03:15:18 GMT From: msudoc!beach@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Of rings rickheit@ulowell.UUCP (Erich W Rickheit) writes: >Illuvitar? No; Eru never meddled in the affairs of Middle-Earth >once it was fully made. When Ar-Pharazon, the last King of Numenor set foot upon the undying lands the Valar set aside their guardianship of the world for a moment and called upon Illuvitar. The world was remade (note this was AFTER the forging of the one ring) and Numenor was downfallen, and the roads of the world were "bent" so no non-elves could reach Valinor. Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 86 19:52:35 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: The One Ring milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes: >The creation of the Rings of Power:[Summary] > >0) The Elves and the still handsome Sauron, make the lesser rings > >1) The Elves produce, BY THEMSELVES, the three elven Rings. > >2) Sauron forges for himself the One Ring. He places in it a large >part of his own power (and character). > >3) Sauron moves to seduce the other free races of Middle Earth. He >forges the Seven, to be given to the 7 houses of Dwarves, and the >Nine, to be given to 9 Black Numenorean kings who serve him. I do not think this sequence is correct. There is considerable evidence that the Elves had a hand in the making of the Seven and the Nine, and that they were *all* made *before* the One. Thus I would say: 0) The Elves begin to learn ring-lore, and start making various magic rings, of lesser power. 1) Sauron hears of this and comes in fair guise to take advantage of the Elvish lore. With his help they learn a great deal, and become very skilled at ring-making. 2) The Elves and Sauron together make a number of Ring of Power, totalling at least 16. Somehow Sauron gains posession of these, by theft or guile. 3) The Elves, because they desire knowledge and stability, are not satisfied with the rings Sauron has helped them make, and make at least three more, on thier own, which are closer to their desire. 4) Sauron retires to Mordor and makes the One Ring in Orodruin, transfering much of his original power to it. Celebrimbor, probably by means of his Ring of Power, is aware of Sauron's treacherey too soon, and causes all the Three to be hidden. 5) Sauron begins pass out the Rings of Power in his possession to the more evil or pliable members of the various races. He gives seven to Dwarves, and Nine to Men. > The Nazgul wear the Nine to the moment of their destruction in >Orodruin's eruption. This is not what Tolkien himself said, he claimed that the Nine were actually held by Sauron, thus giving him great power over those enslaved by them even without the One. >The Seven fail. Though they make the Dwarves more covetous, more >lustful for gold, they in no way make them susceptible to >domination. If anything, they become more secretive, and guard >their hoards more jealously. The failure earns the Dwarves >Sauron's particular hatred. Enraged, he exerts his power to draw >the Rings back to him. Though he is not successful. While the Seven do not achieve all that Sauron had hoped for them, I would not call them total failures. They are probably the reason for the almost total estrangement of Dwarves from the other races, and thier reputation for greed. Certainly much harm was done to Sauron's enemies because of them. Also, I would say that he was *completely* successful in "recalling" the Seven. Remember, dragons were, in general, controlled by Sauron, so if dragons destroyed any of the Seven it was at Sauron's behest. >4) When the One Ring is destroyed in Orodruin, the power of the >Three and all that had been done with them begin to fade, proving >the fears of the Wise correct. And I think this is at least part >of the reason that the start of the Fourth Age sees the end of the >Elves in Middle Earth. Absolutely, with the passing of the Three they could no longer stand to remain in Middle Earth and watch the inevitable *change* of mortal lands. >So: the Elves had nothing to do with the One Ring, and Sauron had >nothing to do with the Three. And as far as I know, these are the >only rings of power created in Middle Earth Again, quite correct, even if based on an inaccurate time line. >I never thought about this before, but it seems to me likely that >it was Galadriel's own power (and that of Caras Galadon, and the >star Earendil) that revealed her Ring to Frodo. Contact with the >One had sensitised him, certainly, but he was not trying to use it >in Lorien, nor would he ever have wished to. Ah, but Galadriel's power was, to a large degree, due to the Ring of Adamant! Admittedly, it may have been her more *open* use of that power that allowed Frodo to sense where it was comming from. > And though, in the parting at the Grey Havens, it was finally >revealed, I think the revelation meant less than it formerly would >have because of the degree to which the Rings' power had faded >after the One was destroyed. Indeed, in fact by that time it is probably just a fine ruby ring! Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 86 20:07:20 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: more Ringlore I think it is debatable just how real Sauron's repentence was at the beginning of the Second Age. Also, I would say that by the time he began to "help" the Elves in making the Rings, he was already quite corrupt, partly due to his fear and loathing of Numenor, and partly due to the corrupting influence of seeking power and dominion. After the forging of the One, he devotes himself wholly to these latter ends, and this alone is probably enough to account for his increased corruption by the end of the Second Age. That is if the increase was not an illusion to to his *pretended* innocence earlier. Sauron was, after all, a master of deceit! [A masterly summary of the effects of the Nine and the Seven ommited] > In a letter to me in 1969 or thereabouts, Tolkien states that >Sauron had physical possession of the Nine. Therefore, apparently >the Nazgul did not wear their rings, which was why the chief of the >Nine was not recovered. This is also mentioned in a couple of the letters published in "The Tolkein Letters". In one of these letters is a detail analysis of what *would* have happened if Frodo had kept the One Ring. > I feel we have to take Tolkien at his (rather terse) word to me >that Sauron wore the Nine himself. I realize that one would think >that the Nazgul couldn't survive without wearing the Nine, but >that's a minor plot hole in an otherwise very good story. I doubt that they required *wearing* the Nine to survive, only the continued *infuence* of the Nine, no more than having the One taken from him would have killed Frodo. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 86 16:15:16 GMT From: hdsvx1!hoffman@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Hoffman) Subject: Re: Re: Of rings > Three rings for the Elven Kings under the sky, > Seven for the Dwarf Lords in their halls of stone, > Nine for the mortal men, doomed to die, > One for the Dark lord, on his dark throne. > > One Ring to rule THEM all, one ring to find THEM, > One ring to bring THEM all, and in the darkness bind THEM. > > Doesn't it seem to imply that instead of twenty rings, there are 21? I think you're putting too much emphasis on a blank line (although I have to admit that, the first time I read LotR, I wondered about the same thing). But if you merely move that blank line, you can get an entirely different interpretation: Three rings for the Elven Kings under the sky, Seven for the Dwarf Lords in their halls of stone, Nine for the mortal men, doomed to die, One for the Dark lord, on his dark throne. One Ring to rule THEM all, one ring to find THEM, One ring to bring THEM all, and in the darkness bind THEM. Since the book doesn't seem to mention an `extra' ring for Sauron, I think it's easier to assume that Tolkien erred slightly in his arrangement of the verses, rather than assume that he erred largely in his ambiguous treatment of two `one' rings. Richard Hoffman hoffman%hdsvx1@slb-doll.csnet ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 86 13:16:08 GMT From: edison!dca@caip.rutgers.edu (David C. Albrecht) Subject: Re: Of rings dobro@ulowell.UUCP (Chet Dobro) writes: >>other Ring-wielders, INCLUDING Sauron. Re-read the sequence where >>Frodo discovers that Galadriel is wearing the Elven-ring. > Another point in my favor that Sauron had another ring besides the >Ruling Ring. Oh come on. English is not a precise language so sentences can often be read many ways. But it is obvious to even a casual Tolkien reader that the one "ruling" ring is the same as the "one" ring which Frodo had. For support one need only notice that no explicit mention of any other one ring is given in any of Tolkien's writings. Something that important would have had at least SOME mention (like a name perhaps? to differentiate it from the other ring, like the three were differentiated). And besides, if it wasn't the one "ruling" ring why would unmaking it end the reign of the power of the other rings. If it was truly a separate ring it would have been a power apart and its destruction should not have affected the other rings. David Albrecht ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Jun 86 0849-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #164 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 25 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 164 Today's Topics: Books - Gibson & Greeley & Herbert (3 msgs) & Pini (2 msgs) & Spider Robinson & Author Name Answered & Footfall Television - Erin Gray, Miscellaneous - Repopulating the World (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Jun 86 13:42:18 GMT From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: William Gibson mjranum@gouldsd.UUCP writes: > Any words about William gibson's latest ? I read a review that >they were coming out ("burning chrome" and another one) soon, but I >have yet to find them. Anyone with updated rumors, please inform >me... "Count Zero" (the other one) is now available through the Science Fiction Book Club. Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 1986 11:45:06-EDT From: wyzansky@NADC Subject: The_God_Game by Andrew M. Greeley (mild spoiler) A couple of weeks ago, I took Andrew Greeley's new book, _The_God_Game_, out of the library expecting it to be like his other books (Mea Culpa, I sometimes read mainstream best seller trash.) and I was surprised to find it including some SF and Fantasy themes. The story is about an Irish Catholic priest (the narrator) who is trying out an interactive computer adventure game with graphics (sort of _King's_Quest_ squared) on his Compaq 286 when his setup is hit by lightning and he is suddenly observing and interacting with a parallel world where the characters in the game are living people and he can influence events through his computer and the game, giving him God-like powers in that world. The story follows him playing out the game and includes some "Psychic Slopover" between the universes. All in all, not bad. I have read better treatments of parallel worlds, and of the temptations of power, but he puts them together nicely. Because of Greeley's past works, the book is not classified as SF, but I suspect it would have been if it had been a first novel. I would give it about 2 stars. I wouldn't buy the hardcover, but if you see it in the library or want to wait for the paperback, it is worth a look. Harold Wyzansky (wyzansky@nadc.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 86 18:59:07 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@caip.rutgers.edu (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Herbert, Frank rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) writes: >I believe your information is correct as far as it goes. And I >share your opinion of much of what Herbert wrote in his later >years. But, you shouldn't throw out all of Herbert's works unread. >Try "Dragon in the Sea", originally published as "Under Pressure." >THat was probably also a Campbell vetted Herbert story, and was >superb! In my memory it stands as probably the best thing he ever >wrote. I was also favorably impressed by some of his short stories, contained in 'The Book of Frank Herbert' (DAW) and 'The Worlds of Frank Herbert' (Berkeley). 'Hellstroms Hive' is an interesting suspense novel, but not exactly what I would call quality. Alfred Bester is another good example of an author who only produced really good stuff when working closely with an editor. 'The Demolished Man' and 'The Stars my Destination' are great and the rest barely worth reading... George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 86 19:47:12 GMT From: ihlpa!rael@caip.rutgers.edu (Pietkivitch) Subject: Dune Sequels ?? Does anyone know, or has anyone heard of a sequel to the movie Dune? I've read the whole series and can't wait for sequels. Another book by Herbert would also make for an interesting movie: Santaroga Barrier. What flicks would you like to see made from your favorite SF books? (this could be interesting!) (..!ihnp4!ihlpa!rael) ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 24 Jun 1986 07:45:28-PDT From: routley%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Re: Herbert, Northwall I would agree with the two opinions I saw recently on Frank Herbert's works. The only books of his that I have kept in my collection are _DUNE_ and _Under_Pressure_. I don't remember much about _The_God_Makers_, except that it wasn't good enough to keep. Pertaining to the Northwall series: I read the first (?) book in the series, and like most of Herbert's stuff, didn't enjoy it enough to keep it. However, that was 5+ years ago, and I may not remember it well enough today. Kevin Routley ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 86 23:59:07 GMT From: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Elfquest I am looking for information on Elfquest, specifically about whether there will be a new series detailing the new Holt, and about where to get EQ tee-shirts and other memorobilia. And any other information would be appreciated. Thank you ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 86 19:54:04 GMT From: okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (The New Number Who) Subject: Re: Elfquest To join the ElfQuest Fan Club, mail to WaRP Graphics, the address of which escapes me at the moment, but can be found inside every issue of ElfQuest. Wendy Pini has said that the series will continue. There are still many plot ideas around: Winnowill is still alive, as is Two-Edge. What will Dewshine's child look like and become (Will it inherit the Glider's power?) According to sources, there will be an ElfQuest cartoon series. Larry DiTillio will be writing some of the stories under Wendy Pini's auspices. I don't know if she will do any of the production artwork (I suspect not -- she's very busy at present). Jeff Okamoto okamoto@ucbvax.berkeley.edu ..!ucbvax!okamoto ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 86 13:39:38 GMT From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: how Spider Robinson ruined Calahan's Place for me (mild Subject: spoiler) jablow@brahms.UUCP (Eric Robert Jablow) writes: >.... And I hate his plagiarism. I don't ask you to like Spider Robinson's stories, but *do* try to be a little more careful in your choice of words! (If only because I suspect that accusing an author of plagiarism is libelous.) "Plagiarism" is whole hell of a lot different from "somebody reading this might be reminded of this other thing." It requires not just ripping off an idea, but actually stealing large chunks of *text*: precise copying. I can't be sure of the timing (jayembee?) but I believe that Stardance was published about the same time that Chorus Line started on Broadway -- and that means it was *written* well before. Thus it is impossible that Stardance plagiarized CL. >...you have the dance company, with a man with a knee injury, a >driven woman, a wholesome woman, a man who just decided to take up >dancing on a whim, and two gay men; crucially, you have a woman who >can't get a job because she has the wrong build--she's too >big-boned, and her breasts are the wrong shape. That is a standard problem for dancers, and one of the most likely things for someone to hit on as a Problem: and the man with the knee injury is not just hampered, he's crippled! Might as well claim that West Side Story is a *plagiarism* of Romeo and Juliet. (*My* suspicion is that Spider got that idea from Jeanne -- as she is not equipped with the "classical" dancer's body herself.) >....But can anyone tell me why Shara didn't "Grab a cab, come on, >see the wizard of Park and Seventy-third," for appropiate plastic >surgery? That one is easy -- Shara was not only too busty and big boned, she was TOO TALL. A medical technology that couldn't repair a shot-up knee would be pretty unlikely to be able to reduce height by six or ten inches either. And come to think of it, I think what's-his-name the main character had a bad HIP anyway. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 86 21:45:21 GMT From: utastro!mccarthy@caip.rutgers.edu (Susan Elizabeth Hill) Subject: Re: Screwfly Solution Author The Screwfly Solution was written by Alice B. Sheldon under her pseudonym of Raccoona Sheldon. Alice B. Sheldon is better known as James Tiptree, Jr. She is (according to a review I think I read in *Destinies*) the only person to have won major sf awards for pseudonymous stories. Richard Bleiler [Moderator's Note: Thanks to the many people who submitted the same or similar information. There are way too many to list here.] ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 86 17:20:00 GMT From: bsmith@uiucdcsp.CS.UIUC.EDU Subject: Should Footfall be taken seriously? I'm rather new to this notesfile, so I've been sitting back and reading other peoples notes. One thing I've had a lot of trouble with is the reaction of the readers to Footfall. When I read it I thought it was a parady on science fiction, but others seem to think it should be taken as a masterpiece. Let's look at it. The world is finally visited by aliens (now where have I read that?). Being as wonderful as we are, we go out to meet them with open arms, and what do they do? They attack (now where have I read that?). It turns out that the aliens are really baby elephants from another world (oh god). They may have a language, but they look like baby elephants and act like baby elephants, right down to their love of mud (they have rooms full of the stuff for them to wallow in). Naturally, when confronted with this crisis, what does the United States do? Well, what any free and wonderful country would do--they put together teams of science fiction writers to save us from the menace! Since everyone knows the Russians have no imagination, they have no science fiction writers to save them, and so they die. While the science fiction writers are wallowing in the mud with a captured baby elephant (and drinking gallons of martinis to keep them fresh and clear headed), the U.S. nukes Kansas, thus destroying the most productive wheat farms in the world for the next millennia (anything to get rid of the baby elephants). And what incredible weapons do the baby elephants have (everyone knows aliens have incredible weapons). Welllll, they throw rocks at us (albeit with amazing accuracy [they have to do something right]). Thank god it's getting towards mating season when they all become sex crazed adult elephants! In the meantime the science fiction writers have learned the baby elephant's language (and taught him ours), and have devised a plan (it would all be so easy if we all just layed down on our backs and let the baby elephants step on us!). The plan involves a radical new spaceship, which is propelled by thousands of atom bombs. This ship is built in total secrecy (even though it's the largest ship ever produced on earth) and out of sight of even the prying eyes of the baby elephants (now if they would only lay on their backs and let us step on them ... after all, everyone knows a baby elephant never forgets). The plan, of course, is saved by an environmentalist who drowns the big bad journalist in the toilet (a fitting end for any journalist who works for the Washington Post, since they'll do anything to get a pulitzer prize). And, finally, we win when we launch this ship, thus sending more radioactive fallout into the atmosphere than any nuclear war would. (In the movie, the following message will be flashed on screen: THE BEGINNING OF THE END PS - Pssst - I've heard Pournelle and Niven are writing a sequel. It will take place in the near future, when a giant dinosaur will be released from its artic prison. This dinosaur will then attack, you guessed it, Tokyo. We will attack back in a giant replica of a flying reptile (the one in the Smithsonian was used as a model). This will be manned by tens of (you guessed it) science fiction writers, who will shoot nuclear arrows out the eyes. In the process of destroying the dinosaur, many of these arrows miss, and wipe out the northern hemisphere of the earth. Most Americans move to Brazil (the wimpy American president has hundreds of shuttles drop enough concrete to pave central America, thus fascillitating the move). In exchange, the Brazilians are given Kansas. Many of them move there, where (you guessed it) they all give birth to baby elephants. The book ends with the message: THE BEGINNING OF THE END ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 86 20:06:45 GMT From: bambi!schatz@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce R. Schatz) Subject: Re: Gil Gerard and Erin Gray (Buck Rogers TV stars) -- recent Subject: work? For those in the New York area, Erin Gray also appears on commercials for Bloomingdale's (a "swanky" dept store). She's at her seductive best as she concludes... "It's like no other store in the world". Bruce ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 86 18:51:48 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@caip.rutgers.edu (George Robbins) Subject: Re: FOOTFALL (Really: Could one man & woman repopulate?) Erich Rickheit writes: > Incidentally, I don't think you'd have to kill off _all_ > the women; I think there's some point at which the base population > is too small for growth; I don't know what it might be. There is a recent article in Scientific American which examines the lack of genetic variance in the Cheetah, and suggests that it is due to reduction of the Cheetah breeding population to a very small number sometime in the past. The answer seems to be that, yes you can repopulate from a very small breeding population (2). But there will be a heavy toll, and the eventual population will be 'genetically fragile' due to a lack of variation. I suspect that given sufficient time, (millenia * 10^?), mutation and genetic selection will eventually create increased variety, but in the interiem, the population is at considerable risk. George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 86 18:25:24 GMT From: ulowell!rickheit@caip.rutgers.edu (Erich W Rickheit) Subject: Re: Srewfly Solution ins_apmj@jhunix.ARPA (Patrick M Juola) writes: >rickheit@ulowell.UUCP (Erich W Rickheit) writes: >>I think there's some point at which the base population is too >>small for growth; I don't know what it might be. This is a point >>I'm interested in-- is is possible for one Adam and one Eve to >>have populated the Earth? > >Ever hear of the Fibonacci sequence? Yes, it's easily possible for >one Adam and one Eve to have populated the Earth -- just assume >that the women average 3 children surviving to adulthood. >(Remember this is biblical times, when men and women lived 100's of >years -- I think most women could manage to fit three pregancies >into a 900 year livespan....) Population goes up with >order(1.5^n)..... The mathematics of it I could work out (Yeh--I knew that. :-) There are other factors, too, which I don't know much about. For example, does the gene pool get too restricted. A great deal of inbreeding must needs take place in such a situation, and it looks like any bad genes would get reinforced in the long run. Also, if we're talking about a devastaded population, many good traits might get lost altogether. Also, you can't count on evolution to eliminate bad traits. Humans societies tend to protect their weaker members, allowing them to breed and perpetuate their genes. In a diverse gene pool, this is not a problem; in a restricted one, it might be. Exempli Gratii: Supposes I were Adam (This is for all you girls that said 'Not if you were the only man' :-) This almost guarantees that all future inhabitants would acquire bad eyesight and clumsiness, and we would have a race of people wandering around bumping into walls, rocks, trees, small animals, large carnivores...* *(Not to mention a compulsive habit of posting things with smiley faces to Usenet) UUCP: ...wanginst!ulowell!rickheit USnail: Erich Rickheit 85 Gershom Ave, #2 Lowell, MA 01854 Phone: (617) 453-1753 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Jun 86 0918-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #165 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 25 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 165 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jun 86 01:12:41 -0800 From: Alastair Milne Subject: Whither the Nine? >Sauron was (1) wearing the Nine (see earlier postings), and (2) >since his power and ``mind'' were in the One, which controlled the >others, he could be read by any wearer of the Rings of Power. He could be read, that is, by any wearer so trained in using the Ring. As Galadriel pointed out, Frodo was not; perhaps other potential wearers (Gandalf, for instance) were, or at least, came closer. I suspect also that, given the gulf between Sauron's desires and orientations and those of almost anybody/thing else in Middle Earth, the wearer, even having achieved contact, would have a hard time understanding what was there. The little that Pippin saw when he stole the Palantir almost did him in. And he'd better be subtle about it, or he would be decorating the dungeons of Barad-Dur before he got much practice. But this is curious. At the Council of Elrond, in enumerating the fates of the Rings of Power, Gandalf says "... the Nine the Nazgul keep...". I assumed, therefore, that they were still wearing them when they flew into Orodruin's eruption. I confess I hadn't thought of the one that would have had to be lying in the Pelennor. Well, either he was wrong, which is unlikely but still possible, or perhaps Sauron, in preparation for what was to be his last, greatest war against Elves and Men, took the Nine back to himself while the Nazgul were engaged with the enemy. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Jun 86 02:55:22 -0800 From: Alastair Milne Subject: Sauron, the Nazgul, and the Ring >But is that [power of dominion] not effectively the same thing [as >moving the wearer to the wraiths' plane]? To exert the power of >Sauron you must be in Sauron's world... i.e. the same world as the >former King of Angmar and the other Wraiths. [Sauron never >intended the One to fall into lesser hands, but he probably used >what he learned from the Seven and the Nine in making it, so it has >wraith-making capability which (in persons of greater stature) is >also manifested as the ability to control: they are powerful enough >to use Sauron's control channels within the Ring.] I don't think they're the same thing, because one (the power to dominate) is the reason for which Sauron forged the Ring in the first place, whereas the other would be utterly useless to him. Why would Sauron make himself a ring to pull its wearer into the wraiths' plane? He was there already, enormously so. Dominion was what he wanted. Personally, I suspect that the "wraithifying" effect occurred simply because the power Sauron had placed in the Ring was based in the wraith's plane, and tended to pull its wielder toward it. I imagine the power in the Nine was calculated the same way. (Why do you indicate the Seven had that effect? I know of no evidence to suggest it. ) Nor is there any reason to think that becoming a wraith would impart power. Frodo would have gained none, had the Ringwraiths seized him; and Gandalf, most definitely not a wraith, had great power; so too, in a different way, had Aragorn. >How do you ``know'' someone's mind without reading it? Also recall >toward the end of RETURN OF THE KING where Gandalf, Galadriel and >Elrond stand around and mindchat at each other (``If any wanderer >had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard.... For >they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to >mind...''). And those were only the Three. Sorry, I was unclear. I meant that the Ring would let you see the minds of those whom you dominated, which would presumably never include Sauron. But while Frodo was painfully aware, through the Ring, of Sauron's presence and vigilance, he never saw Sauron's thoughts, or he would have found out much about the West -- he might even have learned that Gandalf was still alive. I always thought that the "mindchat" was a native skill of three of the Wise involved, seldom used, but nevertheless available. But on reflection, I'm sure that the Three would at least enhance their abilities. Don't forget, though, that this is communications among willing parties, and not spying or invasion. As you suggested, I reread the Mirror of Galadriel (thanks!) Frodo asks why he, the Ringbearer, is not permitted to see the thoughts of the others, and Galadriel says he has not tried (and not to). She also says that she is aware of all of Sauron's mind that concerns the Elves. But as I thought, no connection is made between what she can see and the One. >I never said [Sauron] could PINPOINT [the Ring]. But he was >DEFINITELY aware that some great power was approaching his realm. I'm sorry, I still don't see this. I recall nothing to indicate even such moderate awareness. Think of the opportunities he missed: when the Nazgul turned and swept the Dead Marshes, over the hobbits' heads; when the Witch King lead Mordor's first armies out of Minas Morgul, with the Ring itself lying right opposite him, across the valley; when Frodo was captured and Sam was actually wearing the Ring in Mordor; when the Nazgul landed on Cirith Ungol, Frodo and the Ring escaping not one mile from him. At most, a faint call seems to have been heard by some of the servants. Whereas, had Sauron had any idea that the Ring even might have been moving toward his borders, Imlad Morgul and Cirith Ungol would have been crawling with spies and guards that would have captured Frodo as soon as he set foot there (we needn't even talk about more guards for Carach Angren). It was in major part to distract him from such thoughts that Gandalf organised such large campaigns in the West, though he knew that, if the Ring were not destroyed, the campaigns would finally be defeated. Why bother, if Sauron were aware of the Ring approaching Mordor? He would have ranged his armies around his borders, sooner or later the Ring would have been taken, and so much for Middle Earth. In fact, he didn't, never imagining that his enemies would send the Ring into the heart of his realm (Gandalf, on the Quest: "let folly be our cloak in the eyes of our enemy; for he is very wise, and measures all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice..."; at the Cracks of Doom [of Sauron]: "...and the magnitude of his folly was revealed to him, and all the schemes of his enemies were laid bare at last"). >No doubt when Aragorn revealed himself to Sauron, his suspicions >were allayed until too late. Excuse me, is this quite what you mean? The very last that knowing of Aragorn would have done is allay suspicion. Aragorn revealed himself to scare Sauron into attacking too hastily, with his power not quite fully developed, and to add to the number of distractions to keep Sauron's attention from Mordor. >It WAS mentioned a number of times, however, that Sauron and his >servants could feel the power of the Ring, and demonstrated that >they could not pinpoint it even up close (else Frodo would have >been caught immediately in Gorgoroth; the King of Angmar could feel >the Ring nearby but couldn't tell quite where). Quite true, but they had to be VERY close to feel it. Sauron would have had the Nazgul in the Shire years before they actually were had he been able to feel it, rather then spending years in fear as his spies went everywhere they could trying to find word of it. "Unfinished Tails" tells of this in The Hunt for the Ring. It is certainly true that the *Nazgul* felt the Ring somewhat, at close range, but I think that's because it was a source of the will that drove them. Sauron had no such relationship with it, therefore no such feeling. >I interpreted [event at Amon Hen] as:Sauron felt the Ring and was >able to begin pinpointing its location, but Gandalf attracted his >location while telling Frodo to take the Ring off; when he did, >Sauron could no longer pinpoint it. "His attention", I think you mean :) My assumption is that, on that high seat, the Ring started calling, and the call is what Sauron felt, the distinction being that the Ring had to initiate the action; furthermore, once it had stopped, Sauron had nothing more to follow (thank God). >The Ring is poweful but requires a mind in living circuit with it >to set its power loose (doesn't that sound familiar? :-). So >someone had to be wearing it before Sauron or the Nazgul could do >anything more than be aware that there was a lot of power somewhere >nearby. Though they might try to make the Ring more prominent by pressuring the bearer to put it on -- still just the Nazgul, though, not Sauron. The contact with a mind certainly seems true, though perhaps not universally -- it seemed to arrange its own loss from Gollum, though he seldom wore it by that time -- and Frodo (obviously) never wore it in Gorgoroth, but its effect on him was still terrible. There is a passage I wish I could remember accurately when Sam, about to throw away his pans, asks if Frodo can remember stewed rabbit in Ithilien. Frodo answers that he cannot, though he knows it happened; that no sight or sound of grass, no breath of air, is left to him; that he is naked in the dark with only the wheel of fire. A magnificent and terrifying passage. I'll look it up when I get home. >Of course, I may revise this in another reading. I've been through >the books nine times and STILL I'm finding things... AMEN!!! I think I make it more than ten times (I've lost count), and the discoveries haven't stopped yet. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Jun 86 03:44:30 -0800 From: Alastair Milne Subject: Re: more Ringlore from Mark Crispin: > The rings were the creation of a combination of both Sauron's and >Noldorian lore. Not to mention Dwarvish. This was the period of the great friendship between the Elven smiths of Eregion (Celebrimbor the most senior) and the Dwarves of Moria. In those days the West gate of Moria usually stood open. They were shut shortly afterward, when the Elves' discovery that their "benefactor" was Sauron caused the War of the Elves and Sauron. >At this time, Sauron wasn't totally evil; he had repented of his >deeds as a servant of Morgoth at the end of the First Age, but >declined to return to Valinor to be judged. Please justify this. As far as I am aware, Sauron had repented of nothing at all. After the terror of seeing what the Valar could do when aroused, he was minding his p's and q's, taking care not to get caught until his power was better developed; but his schemes were laid even then, and his desires were enslavement, dominion, and destruction, as they always were. The fact that he had a physical form which could look pleasant means nothing. He wanted to trap the Elves, and was using their love of knowledge to try to do it. >He was obviously terrified by the power of the Valar against >Morgoth (remember, Melkor/Morgoth was the most powerful Vala and it >took the combined power of all the other Valar to defeat him). He >was also alarmed by the growing power of the Numenoreans. This only affected how he presented himself. It made him not at all less evil. In fact, it probably only increased his jealousy and resentment, and his resolve to destroy both the Elves and the Dunedain. > . . .Gil- Galad didn't trust him and refused to deal with him, >but the Noldor in Eregion were more receptive. After all, Sauron >was originally a Maia of Aule, and that's the sort of person who >would catch the Noldors' attention even if they should have >realized that the "Lord of Gifts" rather suddenly appeared and >Sauron (Morgoth's #1 servant) suddenly disappeared. The Elves had no idea it was Sauron, or they wouldn't have touched him with a ten-kilometre pole, knowledge or none. They didn't know until he spoke the Ring inscription from Mount Doom. So they also didn't know he was a Maia. Nor do I know what you mean by "sudden" disappearance and appearance: many centuries separated the breaking of Thangorodrim and "Lord of Gifts" appearance. > At about the same time, Sauron, who had picked up all of >Celebrimbor's ringlore, forges the One. He very definitely wants >to run everything at this point, and takes the easy path. This >includes use of the Black Speech, orcs, what have you. It's sort >of like falling for the Dark Side of the Force. He wants more than to run everything: he wants the free races enslaved. I don't see what you mean by "the easy path". Developing the Black Speech, breeding more tribes of orcs, trolls, Nazgul mounts, etc., could not have been easy, but they consolidated his power, gave him armies and labour forces. Are you trying to cast Sauron as an ancient Darth Vader? If so, I disagree totally. Sauron was altogether more vast, more powerful, vastly more evil, and his power was his own, not derived from something naturally available. > Sauron gives his ring most of his native power, but a lot more. >Sauron's ring is totally evil (more evil than he was when he >created it) and the ring corrupts Sauron totally over the years. >This is made quite clear in the history of the Second Age. Sauron >is far more corrupt at the end of the Second Age than he was at the >forging of the rings, and more so in the Third Age. The fact that >he was bad-intentioned and powerful to begin with let him do a lot >more with the ring than any of the other possessors did; the ring >gave him power according to his stature. But the ring corrupted >him as it corrupted every other possessor. How can an instrument be more evil than the use its creator intends for it? It is not at all clear that the Ring could or would corrupt its own master, nor is it clear than Sauron has, or ever had, any room left for more corruption. It is true that Elrond stated that Sauron was not originally evil, but that was before Melkor got to him. The history of the Second Age makes clear that Sauron's fear of the Valar gradually left him, and he started behaving more and more like his true self, but I see no evidence anywhere that he had ever even slightly repented. Even when the Numenoreans confronted him with so great a might that he surrendered, his plans for final destruction of Men and Elves were still brewing, and the Second Age hadn't finished before they scored: the seeds of dissent he planted culminated in the destruction of Numenor. It cost him his body, and he could never appear pleasant again, but it was still one of his greatest victories. The Ring was never intended to have other possessors. It corrupted them because they were using Sauron's power, which was totally evil. But where it would take them, Sauron already was. A wet sponge will make your hands wet if you use it; but it can't make the sea wetter than it already is. >The ring of the House of Durin was the last to remain free. There is a marvelous quote from Gandalf in Unfinished Tales, recalling that Thrain had been thrown back into the dungeons of Dol Guldur once Sauron had wrested that Ring from him; but Thrain still kept the map of and key to Erebor, which made the Erebor expedition ("The Hobbit") possible. Just to entice you to read the whole story, I won't give the quote. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Jun 86 0931-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #166 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 25 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 166 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (10 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Jun 86 17:56:31 GMT From: sliu@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Sliu) Subject: Re: Re: Of rings I think that the first four lines tell us briefly about the Rings, including the number of the Rings. The last two lines stress the importance of the One Ring. At least this is how I interpreted the verses when I first read them. To me, Tolkien made no mistake (at least in this respect), and there is no ambiguity in the total number of the Rings of Power, which is 20, as indicated by those verses. Steve Liu ------------------------------ Date: Sun 22 Jun 86 11:03:45-PDT From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #160 John Blaker isn't really reading what I said. Sauron was corrupted by the ring. That does *not* mean he wasn't somewhat corrupt to begin with. He made a half-hearted attempt at reform at the start of the Second Age, but didn't carry through with it. His initial purpose in making the rings was to get power and prestige. When he learned enough, he saw his opportunity to make the One, which would guarantee his hegemony over Middle-Earth which he enjoyed for almost 2,000 years. Yes, Sauron did betray the Elven-smiths, and yes, he was a bad guy at the time of forging the ring. The point is that he got worse by virtue (couldn't resist that pun) of the One. The One gave Sauron power according to his stature, and totally twisted him. What little good was left in Sauron was totally gone by the time Ar-Pharazon took him to Numenor. In a sense, Sauron was as much a prisoner and slave to the One as Gollum. ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 22 Jun 1986 13:09:07-PDT From: winalski%psw.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Paul S. Winalski) Subject: Illuvatar's meddling in Middle Earth In SFL Vol. 11, Issue 160, Christe McMenomy writes: > 3. There are hints at a guiding power for good in LotR. >Gandalf says at one point "All I can say is that Bilbo was meant to >find the Ring, and not by its maker". He is clearly implying that >Someone is helping the good guys. It can't be the Valar, for they >have laid down their guardianship and meddle in the affairs of >Middle Earth only through human agents like the Istari, by >persuasion and not by force. The Valar never permanently laid down their Guardianship of Middle Earth. When Ar-Pharazon sought to land on the shores of Aman, they temporarily laid their Guardianship down, because the only alternative would have been direct armed conflict with Men, who are Children of Illuvatar. Therefore, they called on Illuvatar, who, after all, had created both Arda and Men, to handle the problem. Which he did. After that, they resumed their Guardianship. See also the Silmarillion, wherein it states that the Valar shaped the world and CONTINUE TO DO SO even up to the present day. The Istari (Wizards) are not human. They are Maiar incarnated into physical bodies. You are correct about the Valar's meddling being restricted to persuasion rather than force. The affair of the Silmarils tought them the painful lesson that using power or force to make the Children of Illuvatar do something always leads to disaster. There certainly are hints of a guiding power. I am convinced that it is the Vala Ulmo. The Silmarillion states that Ulmo alone of the Valar did not turn his back and abandon the Elves of Middle Earth after the rebellion of the Noldor. I think it is most significant that Frodo has recurring dreams of the SEA, something he had neither seen nor heard in waking life. The Silmarillion states that Ulmo often spoke through the voices of water. I think that it was through Ulmo's power that Bilbo found the ring. It also may be significant that Isildur lost the ring in a river (before it could corrupt him, perhaps resulting in another Sauron--if Aragorn had the power to wield the One [Gandalf and Sauron thought he did], surely Isildur did). Also that Smeagol found the ring in the river Anduin (part of Ulmo's domain), and that while he kept it, he lived on an island in a pool of water. Anyway, I do NOT think that the guiding force for good was Illuvatar. Illuvatar created Arda in the first place to show Melkor and the Ainur who followed him the folly of their ways. Aside from the one incident of Numenor, Illuvatar let the history of the Music of the Ainur run its course. PSW ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 86 23:01:59 GMT From: maryland!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Lindor) Subject: Legolas [Apologies for the delay in responding; I have been busy. I understand that most mortals consider several months a long time.] From: friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) >>Actually, his name was Legolas, which does indeed mean >>"greenleaf" in Quenya (`Lego'="green" + `las, lasse'="leaf"). > >But [Legolas] *is* Sindarin, or a dialectic variant of it. > >the proper Sindarin form of the name would be 'Laigolas'. Well now I do feel dumb---though that still sounds a bit odd to me. Ah well, languages do change. I was thinking of `leg' + `las', not `laigos', and the best I came up with was that `las' might be an alteration of `last', giving `sharp-eyed' (keen + look). (No one would call his son `able-leaf', except perhaps in jest.) Ah! Come to think of it, Legolas was rather sharp-eyed at that. What a marvellous pun! Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1516) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 86 23:46:08 GMT From: maryland!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Lindor) Subject: Orcs From: daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp) >... in "The Silmarillion" and other places, it says that Melkor (or >Morgoth, as you prefer) created the Orcs by doing nasty things to >captured Elves, whom he abducted from around Lake Cuivienen before >the Valar found the Firstborn. Some of us dispute this: the first Orcs appeared about the same time as the first Men, as far as we know; but I myself think those who claim that Orcs are a mockery of Men rather than Elves are just being overly sensitive about their (how shall I phrase this?) ... `distant relatives'. >As we all know, Elves are immortal, their lives being bound to >Middle-Earth and all that; so, *does the same apply to Orcs???* We certainly hope not! Seriously, we have no evidence that Orcs are immortal---though on the other hand none of us here have seen an Orc dead of anything but violence, either. For that matter, I myself have never seen an Orc at all---for which I am thankful. But unless Orcs have as low a birth rate as we do (and ours is in some measure voluntary), the world would be buried ten deep in orc-bodies, were they immortal. Well perhaps not, but I imagine you get the idea. Elves can, with care, pass unnoticed among Men, but Orcs...? Well, then again, and considering the behaviour of some few Men I have seen, perhaps---but no, I think you would notice. I {\it hope} you would notice. >And what happens to a dead Orc? Does it go to a special section of >the Halls Of Nienor (sp?) The halls are those of Mandos, whose `real name' is Namo, the Judge. (Nienor means `mourning'; curious that you should pick that word.) Well, anything is possible. Those who returned to Aman may know; but we here have no clue. >and get reborn later on, like Elves do (I think)? I have yet to meet a reborn Elf. Yet I have heard of mortals said to be born again---whatever that may mean. >... two of the Mordor Orcs ... discussing the upcoming war ... say >something like "It'll be just like the bad old days". I found what I would guess is the quote to which you refer. It runs thus: `No one, {\it no} one has ever stuck a pin in Shelob before, as you should know well enough. There's no grief in that; but think---there's someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous than any other damned rebel that ever walked since the bad old times, since the great Siege. Something {\it has} slipped.' We guess that this refers to the siege at the end of the second age, about which Gorbag had no doubt heard stories. (Actually, there is a some difference of opinion, as must be expected among any group our size, be it of Men or Elves.) Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1516) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 23 June 1986 12:37:54 EDT From: Steven.Lammert@cive.ri.cmu.edu Subject: Guiding power for good > 3. There are hints at a guiding power for good in LotR. >Gandalf@* says at one point "All I can say is that Bilbo was meant >to find the@* Ring, and not by its maker". He is clearly implying >that Someone is@* helping the good guys. It can't be the Valar, >for they have laid@* down their guardianship and meddle in the >affairs of Middle Earth@* only through human agents like the >Istari, by persuasion and not by@* force. I disagree. When the Valar laid down their guardianship of Middle-Earth, and called upon Eru to foil the invasion of Aman by Ar-Pharazon, my reading of the text is that this was not a permanent arrangement. Granted, in the Third Age they seem to restrict their interactions with the Children of Illuvatar to intermediaries such as the Istari (who were *NOT* human... Gandalf was a Maia, whose "real" name was Olorin). But Sam (and Frodo, I think) both called upon Elbereth, and seem to have been aided by her. I always have believed that the phrase "Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker" referred to Elbereth or one of her kind. Illuvatar, Eru, The One, is rarely mentioned in LotR. I think that the Valar are probably the ones that Gandalf had in mind. After all, he talks with some familiarity about the Blessed Realm and its inhabitants; and though "removed from the circles of the world," they are still very interested in Middle Earth and its fate. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 86 23:18:23 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Rings AGAIN?! milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes: >>>One of the few tactical advantages the Elves had over Sauron was >>>Galadriel's power, which could discern his mind even while it >>>concealed those of the Elves from him. >>And where did this power come from? I say it came from her Ring! >And I say it was intrinsic to her as one of the greatest of the >Noldor, though amplified and extended by the Ring. Celebrimbor was powerful, but not that much so, I think. Remember that he was only and Elf; Sauron is a Maia. During the Council of Elrond it is said that when Sauron put on the Ruling Ring, Celebrimbor became aware of him and hid the Three. How would Celebrimbor become aware of Sauron putting on the Ruling Ring? Through the Ring's attachment to the Elven-rings. So it is an argument for the Rings conferring mind-reading capabilities (the minds of other Ringwielders). The conferences near the end of THE RETURN OF THE KING also show this. Brandon ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 86 23:33:32 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: And again, rings friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes: >>The Seven fail. Though they make the Dwarves more covetous, more >>lustful for gold, they in no way make them susceptible to >>domination. If anything, they become more secretive, and guard >>their hoards more jealously. The failure earns the Dwarves >>Sauron's particular hatred. Enraged, he exerts his power to draw >>the Rings back to him. Though he is not successful. > > While the Seven do not achieve all that Sauron had hoped >for them, I would not call them total failures. They are probably >the reason for the almost total estrangement of Dwarves from the >other races, and thier reputation for greed. This was caused MUCH earlier: Dwarves were commissioned to set the Silmaril which Thingol had received from Beren in the necklace Nauglamir. But the Dwarves, aroused by the beauty of the Silmaril, stole Nauglamir, which ultimately led to the destruction of Doriath. This caused the estrangement of Dwarves and Elves. >Also, I would say that he was *completely* successful in >"recalling" the Seven. Remember, dragons were, in general, >controlled by Sauron, so if dragons destroyed any of the Seven it >was at Sauron's behest. To which I respond with the argument used against my theory that the Balrog of Moria was in communication with Sauron. Dragons were controlled by Melkor, before he was sent out of the world. Sauron didn't pick up the load, just as he didn't pick up the load of controlling the Balrog. Brandon ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 86 17:29:46 GMT From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) Subject: Re: And again, rings allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes: >>While the Seven do not achieve all that Sauron had hoped for them, >>I would not call them total failures. They are probably the >>reason for the almost total estrangement of Dwarves from the >>other races, and their reputation for greed. > >This was caused MUCH earlier: Dwarves were commissioned to set the >Silmaril which Thingol had received from Beren in the necklace >Nauglamir. But the Dwarves, aroused by the beauty of the Silmaril, >stole Nauglamir, which ultimately led to the destruction of >Doriath. This caused the estrangement of Dwarves and Elves. I thought the split was even earlier than that. Wasn't it forordained at their creation that they wouldn't get along with the other races? ------------------------------ From: cuuxb!wbp@caip.rutgers.edu (Walt Pesch) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #90 Date: 23 Jun 86 22:47:55 GMT wad@mitre-bedford.ARPA writes: > To my recollection, Gandalf is never directly identified as >being a human, elf, hobbit or whatever. There is a strong >indication however that Gandalf was an elf since he possessed one >of the three elven rings of power... If you refer to the Silmarilon, you will find out that Gandalf is a Valar, who is basically an agent of the Creator roughly equivalent to a Demi-god or an Angel. As such, he has been around since the creation. Other examples of Valar present in Middle Earth include Tom Bombadil (a Valar who has gone to ground) and Saruman and the rest of the Order of Wizards (who are sent to offset Sauron). Perhaps an interesting question to the net would be whether Sauron is considered as to have originally been a Valar, or whether his start was as something much more powerful. (My view is that he is originally a Valar, but due to the tremendous amount of worship has attained Godhood.) I suppose it's time to reread the Silmarilon agian... Walt Pesch Computer Systems Division AT&T Information Systems ihnp4!cuuxb!wbp ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Jun 86 0814-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #167 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 27 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 167 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Cyberspace (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Jun 86 20:04:28 GMT From: utastro!howard@caip.rutgers.edu (Howard Coleman) Subject: Do you believe in cyberspace ? There's been some discussion lately in this group about whether William Gibson's cyberspace really makes sense. This question has been kicking around fandom for a while, now. At least as far back as LACon II, in '84, Greg Benford was proposing the idea that maybe Gibson really didn't know how computers work. According to Willie Siros, Benford reiterated this notion earlier this year at a con in Houston (?). This suggestion generally elicits hisses and boos from Gibson fans, based on the equation "I like the stuff" ==> "It's absolutely gospel" For example, take the intriguing notion forwarded here a few days ago, that (paraphrasing text and spirit) "Yeah, man, it's just like video games !" Well, computers control video games, for sure. They control Maytag washing machines, too. That doesn't mean I'm going to get excited over a fictional universe in which man-machine interfaces are modelled after spin-dry cycles. (Unless maybe John Sladek wrote it.) (If, on the other hand, you'd buy interfaces like, maybe, the net, check out Bruce Sterling's "Green Days in Brunei" from last year's Asimov's - and probably in various Year's Best anthologies.) I think there's some confusion here between how convincing the writing is and how convincing the ideas are. Gibson is as good at making things sound real as you could possibly want. His world of the Sprawl and Chiba City and Freeside is perfectly portrayed, from stories like "Burning Chrome", "Johnny Mnemonic", and "The New Rose Hotel" to *Neuromancer* and *Count Zero*. His ear for jargon is admirable, and that helps to allow us to believe that all of this marvelous construct is the way things might actually turn out to be. But, if all this magic were woven by one less skilled, what would be left? In terms of technology, little enough. We actually aren't told much about what the decks are really doing. We don't know how biological senses are interfacing with that Ono-Sendai, or how neural and electronic speeds are matched; and there are, I think, a couple of good reasons for that. One is, I think, that Gibson has no idea, himself, other than the same warm feeling for the idea that we've all picked up from reading the same sf he has. The other reason - the one that matters - is that it simply makes no difference. You come to sf with your "suspension of disbelief" warmed up, or you'd better stick to tech manuals. "Hard sf" is a phrase sometimes used to describe Gibson's work. Obviously I don't think it fits. Go back a couple of decades and look around, and I think we find ourselves closer to Ellison than to Niven, but not particularly close to anyone. Nope, I don't believe in cyberspace. Except when I'm reading what the man has to say about it. Howard Coleman ut-sally!utastro!howard Astronomy Department University of Texas ------------------------------ From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Do you believe in cyberspace ? Date: 23 Jun 86 05:59:51 GMT howard@utastro.UUCP (Howard Coleman) writes: > But, if all this magic were woven by one less skilled, what >would be left? In terms of technology, little enough. We actually >aren't told much about what the decks are really doing. We don't >know how biological senses are interfacing with that Ono-Sendai, or >how neural and electronic speeds are matched; and there are, I >think, a couple of good reasons for that. I think there is one very excellent reason for that. We simply have *no* *idea* how future high-bandwidth man-machine interfaces will be constructed. We don't even have that much of an idea of how they will function. But, while I admit that I cannot say anything for certain, certain observations about the design of these interfaces seem reasonable: (1) In the future there will be man-machine interfaces of substantially higher bandwidth than teletypes or audio links are even theoretically capable of. This is both an extrapolation of observed growth trends, and an obvious necessity if we are to use machines as effectively as we use our own bodies. Even something as simple as driving an automobile requires a substantial channel bandwidth. (2) The primary link from machine to human will be visual (as it is even now), simply because that is the only human sense of sufficiently high bandwidth. But those of us who don't have CRTs on our chests can't use the same medium for the link from human to machine. The only possible way for a human to transmit large quantities of information is with the system we currently use when we need to transmit large quantities of information -- our neuromuscular control system. Speech can be used to transmit a maximum of maybe 20-30 bits/sec, tops. A typewriter-style keyboard maybe 50 bits/sec. It would simply not be possible to control an automobile in a crisis situation with speech. It might be possible with a keyboard and a lot of training. But we do it *easily* with only a few simple analog devices! The human neuromuscular control system can use a *single* analog device (e.g. a steering wheel) to transmit 100+ bits/sec, and further our bodies operate in such a way that we can control many individual muscles in our body simultaneously and automatically. Can you type one text while simultaneously speaking another? I don't know what the total bandwidth of the human neuromuscular control system is, but it must be on the order of 10000 bits/sec. (3) Our neuromuscular system works most efficiently on a subconscious or automatic level, in dealing with familiar physical situations. If I tell you: "Flex your right forefinger and your left big and little toes" it will certainly take some time for you to work all of that out. But you perform far more complicated maneuvers routinely in everyday activities such as typing at a keyboard or even walking on irregular ground. Certainly walking on jumbled rocks requires a substantial and constant flow of information to and from your brain. But you are able to coordinate your actions without having to think about the movements of individual muscles. And this is really all that I can see about the construction of high- rate man-machine interfaces. That they must provide primarily visual information, be under direct neurological or neuromuscular control, and employ analogy to familiar physical situations. How such analogies are to be constructed, how the conversion to and from a human-intelligible form will be performed, what abstractions and concepts will develop, I cannot even guess. Gibson has done better than I; he has at least made guesses that seem feasible and are not wildly unreasonable. If they are not exactly accurate, well, do we fault H. G. Wells because the Apollo astronauts were not shot from a cannon? No, we praise him for getting the general idea correct; we recognize that he had no way of even guessing at the technological details! > One is, I think, that Gibson has no idea, himself, other than >the same warm feeling for the idea that we've all picked up from >reading the same sf he has. The other reason - the one that matters >- is that it simply makes no difference. You come to sf with your >"suspension of disbelief" warmed up, or you'd better stick to tech >manuals. Of course he doesn't know. Neither does he know how we are going to build the marvelous AIs he describes. If he did he would be making billions instead of writing novels! No one, not the most fervent hard SF author, can possibly explain *how* the technology is going to work! You can't possibly expect this! What you *can* (and do) expect are two things. Consistent technology -- the level of human knowledge should have progressed to the same extent in all fields. And reasonable engineering -- the mechanisms used should make sense *given* the level of technology available. And here, I think, is where Gibson *succeeds*. He postulates a very reasonable technology of the not-*too*-distant future, and does a very good job of making everything fit with that technology. Offhand I can't think of a single thing in _Neuromancer_ that is either too advanced or too primitive for the milieu in which it is placed. And I think that is a remarkable accomplishment. In the particular case of "cyberspace" the technology is very reasonable. Direct neurological hookups certainly can't be *too* hard! And the images are generally constructed from simple geometrical objects (planes, spheres, simple curves) which indicates a limited but still substantial bandwidth. Note that the AIs, at the forefront of technology, are able to produce more substantial images in cyberspace. Quite consistent with their higher information-processing capability. And the engineering is also reasonable. Clearly a standardized analogy for presenting computerized information to the human interface has been adopted and mass-produced (no IBM in this book -- no doubt the have a separate standard and their own cyberspace :-) ). An almost pure analogy to physical movement is used for human control -- it is never made clear in the book, but no doubt the finer muscular actions (e.g. finger and toe movements) correspond to finer manipulations of the computer interface. No doubt the ability to coordinate these fine manipulations is the main characteristic of the best "interface cowboys." Anyway, I've gone on too long. Hopefully I've at least managed to convince you of the plausability of something like what Gibson is trying to describe with his "cyberspace." I *do* object to many of the details of his presentation. But the general idea is what counts -- no one can be expected to predict the details of what is essentially a completely new technology. And the *idea* that Gibson is presenting is (I think) an unqualified success in filling a big hole in most attempts to describe future computer technology. David desJardins ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 86 12:22:25 GMT From: gouldsd!mjranum@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Do you believe in cyberspace ? Isn't it a bit useless to quibble about Cyberspce ?? For those of you who keep screaming "Well, how in the hell does it work!!" the answer is easy: It's fiction, guys, and that's the whole point. If William Gibson knew how to make Sense/Net and Ono-Sendais, do you think he'd still be writing SCI-FI ?!! The whole idea behind enjoying a book, as far as I can tell, is that it gives you a release (of sorts) from daily humdrum, traffic, taxes, and deferred payments. So, I don't care if it's real, 'cuz it sounds neat. If I recall, there were those who scoffed at "Journey to the Moon" when it came out. Just hold your seats and enjoy your reading, and who cares if it's *real* or not. On the more worth-speculating-about side, I continue to argue that something like the net will someday become necessary. If data technology keeps growing at this rate, why don't *you* imagine going through a list of usenet sites in "vi". Some kind of icon-based way of making it all make sense will be necessary. The human brain (or mine at least) is already easily overwhelmed by the speed with which most computers can produce output. (except my IB* PC) :-) I know the hard core hackers may not like the idea, but sooner or later I predict some form of icon-based control tools (that may look like the net) will be necessary. Besides, I think it would beat the hell out of a VT100 terminal anyway. mjr ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 86 18:30:53 GMT From: bambi!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Caplinger) Subject: Re: Gibson's cyberspace Y'all might try looking at my paper "Graphical Database Browsing" when it comes out in the proceedings of the 3rd ACM Conference on Office Information Systems in October. I won't claim it looks that much like cyberspace, but it does include a quote from NEUROMANCER (and references to Vinge's TRUE NAMES and Ford's WEB OF ANGELS too). If the company knew they were paying me to read science fiction... Mike Caplinger mike@bellcore.arpa ihnp4!bambi!mike ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 86 19:41:58 GMT From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) Subject: Re: Do you believe in cyberspace ? Hmmm..... I don't know whether Gibson knows anything about how computers really work. I do know that Vernor Vinge is a university professor in the field of computer science and he proposed something similar to cyberspace in "True Names" (an excellent novellette, by the way). Brian Yamauchi Carnegie-Mellon University Computer Science Department ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu BITNET: q110by04@cmccvc DECNET: by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 86 18:52:39 -0100 From: Jeff Dalton Subject: Cyberspace mild spoiler (no plot details) >> Another thing. Am I the only person who finds "cyberspace" >> somewhat unconvincing? ... the technique is an effective one; >> it's just that I don't think it would be like that. ... > Try playing some really wild video-games someday !! Now, ask > yourself: Would you rather hack to some interesting screen > effects, or to a paper-tape terminal ? Sure, "cyberspace" is > unconvincing, that's why it's called "fiction".... OK, but I didn't say anything about screen effects and certainly nothing about paper tape. And fiction is supposed to be untrue, not unconvincing. >> In all seriousness, I don't see why cyberspace *couldn't* be. Well, that depends. Perhaps an interface of the sort required just isn't possible, but I'm willing to accept that much (alternate visual input to the brain, &c), and even that the result could look something like cyberspace as described by Gibson. All I'm saying is that I'm not sure that cyberspace *would* look like that. I think it would be stranger, but all I really have is questions, not answers. Think about moving through a visual representation of a computer network. Would it be Euclidean 3-space or would it have other properties? Would it be possible for it the be Euclidean 3-space? How quickly could you change your point of view? How quickly would the network change? (Remember that computers are much faster than humans at some things...) What would breaking into a database with the aid of an "icebreaker" look like? In Neuromancer, what does moving up mean? Does it make sense to organize things that way? Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 86 07:43:37 GMT From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Cyberspace I think it *does* make sense to organize things in that way, because I think that is the only representation that the human brain is able to handle. Assuming that you are feeding in information in a way that the brain is to interpret as "visual" information (leaving aside for the moment the question of how this is done), you have to face the fact that the brain is set up to analyze that visual information as an image of a 3-D space. You say, "Would it be possible for it to be Euclidean 3-space?" I say, "Would it be possible for it to be anything else?" How can you present visual information to the brain so that it is *not* representing a 3-D space? I don't even think it is possible. As for your other questions ("How quickly would things change?") I think that it would have nothing to do with how quickly computers actually operate. You have to remember that everything is being analyzed and reinterpreted so that it can be sensibly interpreted by the human. No doubt this would involve eliminating a lot of essentially useless information. But in any case it is certain that all of the massaging that is done on the data would be carefully designed with an eye on things like human response time and the rate at which humans can process information. David desJardins ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Jun 86 0837-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #168 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 27 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 168 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Garrett & Gibson & Lem & Milan & Pini & Robinson & Spinrad & Recycling the Dead (3 msgs), Films - Bladerunner, Television - Max Headroom (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 86 18:43:36 edt From: Antonio Leal Subject: Piers Anthony Someone asked about the origin of Piers Anthony's "Prostho Plus". The answer is in the notes for "Anthonology", which includes 3 chapters of "Prostho Plus". Those two are the only P.A. books I bought, and I am sorry, and promise not to do it again! In the "Anthonology" notes, he whines how hard it was for him to make his first sales, and crows how he has made it big now. No wonder: as a writer, he is absolute trash, totally incompetent, and I can only praise the editors who defended us from him. Unfortunately, the market for trashy fantasy allowed him to get out of the garbage cans and into the bookshelves ("it took me ten years to elbow Asimov aside", quoth the buzzard). What about the origin of "Prostho Plus", you ask? He wanted to milk something more out of the money he paid for dental work. Tony(abl@ohm.ece.cmu.edu) ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 86 23:54:49 GMT From: qantel!lynx@caip.rutgers.edu (D.N. Lynx Crowe@ex2207) Subject: Re: STARSHIP DEATH by Randall Garrett (mild spoiler) This is a reprint of Randall's book "Unwise Child", which I read back in the early sixties. D.N. Lynx Crowe {dual, hplabs, lll-crg, ptsfa}!qantel!lynx ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 86 12:23:43 GMT From: gouldsd!mjranum@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: William Gibson mjranum@gouldsd.UUCP writes: >"Count Zero" (the other one) is now available through the Science >Fiction Book Club. Both "Count Zero" and "Burning Chrome" are only available in cloth binding at this time at your friendly half-decent bookstore. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 86 20:30:32 GMT From: axiom!gts@caip.rutgers.edu (Guy Schafer) Subject: Comments and Questions about Stanislaw Lem Are there any other Stanislaw Lem fans out there? He's my second favorite author--my favorite in Science Fiction. (Occasionally, even Newsweek is right.) Comments: No two of his books seem to have the same translator--maybe after translating one of his books, the translators change careers. :-) There seems to be no consistency between his short stories and his novels (I consider _The Futurological Congress_ to be a long short story). Is there a reason for this? Even between Pirx the Pilot and Ijon Tichy there is similarity of character but the stories are almost as if by different authors. The differences between _Return From the Stars_ or _Memoirs found in a Bathtub_ and _The Chain of Chance_ or _His Master's Voice_ are beyond those of any works by the same author I've ever seen (perhaps Asimov is an exception, but he's written everything). I've also found that much of his work has the peculiar effect of leaving almost no memory trace in my mind. Is it because of the language? I certainly enjoy his work. I've never noticed this before with any other author--not one that I've enjoyed this much, anyway. Any psychology students want to give an opinion? Questions: Are there any other collections of his short stories kicking about (besides _The Cyberiad_ (very funny), _The Star Diaries_ (the language is amazing, pity the translators), the stories of Ijon Tichy, the two about Pirx ("The Washing Machine Tragedy" is the funniest short story of any genre I've ever read) and _Imaginary Magnitude_ (not really stories, but still entertaining)? I know some of his short stories have been translated for _The New Yorker_; have they all been collected into these volumes? Are there any of his short stories still untranslated? I know some of his stuff has waited (or taken) years to be translated, but he's much more popular now. Is anyone else upset that in the first story in _The Cyberiad_ (about the robot that could do anything that starts with the letter N--talk about a translator's nightmare) that he chose *that* particular thing to miss most? Besides, everyone knows they're still here. Maybe it wasn't a word when the translators did it. Just wondering. ...{ decvax!linus | seismo!harvard }!axiom!gts ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 86 22:19:40 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: THE CYBERNETIC SAMURAI by Victor Milan THE CYBERNETIC SAMURAI by Victor Milan Arbor House, 1985 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper Lately, the emphasis is science fiction has been on computers. Starting with Vernor Vinge's TRUE NAMES and continuing with William Gibson's NEUROMANCER and the cyberpunk school (or "the Neuromantics," as Norman Spinrad calls them), authors in the Eighties are turning to computers the way authors in the late Forties turned to atomic energy. But most of them deal with the enhancement of one's existence through the addition of an electronic alter ego. Milan goes back to a much older idea, that of the artificially created being and applies computer technology. The result is neither an electronically enhanced human being nor an artificial intelligence, but an artificial consciousness. In THE CYBERNETIC SAMURAI, Japan has become the center of the technological world, thanks in part to a limited nuclear exchange (of which we find out very little). The Japanese, though they still retain feelings of superiority over other races in general, and over Westerners in particular, hire Americans as engineers. Dr. Elizabeth O'Neill is one such American. Her theories about how one could create self-aware programs have placed her in disgrace in the United States, but Yoshimitsu TeleCommunications thinks they have some validity and hires her to build Tokugawa. O'Neill has grander plans than even Yoshimitsu realizes--she wants to instill a moral sense into Tokugawa, a personality...in fact, to teach him the code of bushido and make him the first cybernetic samurai. Milan does a good job of portraying the private inter-corporation battles hidden behind the public corporate alliances which are common in Japan today. He does have a major problem however--he doesn't seem to know the difference between Japan and China. He speaks of writing Japanese with Chinese characters and makes references to classic Chinese art and other aspects of Chinese life in such a way as to imply that the Japanese have adopted Chinese culture. This simply isn't true, and it only serves to jar the reader out of an otherwise well-drawn society. Tokugawa himself (herself? no, I don't think so) is as fully developed as Milan's other characters. And while O'Neill at first seems drawn along the lines of Asimov's Susan Calvin, she rapidly emerges as a unique personality. Whether or not you think the scenario Milan draws is likely, his development of an electronic personality is thought-provoking. The concept of a machine evolving into sentience and perhaps even humanity is in many ways the counterpart of the cyberpunk concept of a human taking on electronic aspects. While we can identify more with the latter (as many have pointed out, eyeglasses and hearing aids are the first step toward our becoming a race of cyborgs), Milan's picture looks at the question of man versus machine from a new perspective. In fact, he shows us just how similar the two concepts are by portraying them as approaches to the same middle ground from different starting points. There is a single road connecting the human being to the machine and each one can progress toward the opposite end. Perhaps, somewhere in the middle, they will meet. Intelligent machines have been portrayed before, of course, but as logical machines (a la Asimov's positronic robots--they are totally logical and show no initiative or personality). Tokugawa is a person in the broader sense of the term; he is one of the silicon beings that may one day be campaigning against the "Carbonists" who believe that only carbon-based life forms are entitled to rights. Read this book. Evelyn C. Leeper ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 86 01:45:39 GMT From: suadb!lindberg@caip.rutgers.edu (Per Lindberg QZ) Subject: Re: Elfquest There is also an Elfquest story in WArP Graphics Annual #1. It's the story of how Redlance got his name (those of you who have read the book knows it). Pencils by Debbie Hayes, Inks by Paul Abrams, Letters by Clem Robins, Colors by Lee Marrs. Wendy Pini has not done anything (except, of course, the script together with Richard), but the result is very true to the original -- but it is not Wendy Pini Art. Very nice, but not the brilliant stuff Wendy Pini has spoiled us with. Wendy Pini, come back! Please!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 86 09:30:21 PDT From: chuq@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Callahan's Bar (ruination of) I made my comments on 'The Mick of Time' and the ruination of Callahan's Bar elsewhere, so I won't repeat it here. I WILL say that if you read the intro to the new _Callahan's Secret_ (third and final book to the series) and if you hear Robinson talk (he was GOH at Baycon recently; he and his wife are wonderful public speakers, by the way. Grab them if you can!) you'll see he is VERY defensive about the way he ended the series. We know he blew it. He knows he blew it, and he knows we know. Unfortunately for an author, once it is in print, it is too late. chuq ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 86 08:48:55 PDT (Wednesday) From: Hoffman.es@Xerox.COM Subject: Follow-on to "Carcinoma Angels" Cc: hack@MEDIA-LAB.MIT.EDU, 6082317%pucc.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU, Cc: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM If you enjoyed Norman Spinrad's "Carcinoma Angels" as much as I did, you will also enjoy what I view as his sort-of-sequel (in theme, at least), "No Direction Home". I don't know when or where it appeared, but I read it years ago in one of Terry Carr's 'Best SF of the Year' collections. Rodney Hoffman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 86 09:22:35 PDT From: chuq@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Recycling the dead (Heroes in Hell series) Cc: jbvb@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU I just finished the second volume of the _Heroes in Hell_ being put out by Baen (don't let quality get in your way) Books. Phegh. >I was recently reading one of the "Heros in Hell" stories, and felt >a considerable flash of annoyance over the recycling of historic >personalities. When Farmer first (?) did it in _Riverworld_, it >was interesting, but he kind of wore it out (to me anyway) with the >continual flashbacks to Richard Burton's past in the later volumes. I liked the way Farmer did it (sort of) although like most series it went waaay toooo lonnnnggggg... HiH, unfortunately, is primarily a _Thieves' World_ ripoff, using a cute but poorly executed gimmick. There is absolutely no justification for the people who are IN Hell, except that they are convenient to the story. Most of the characters are famous names from history with convenient personalities written around them -- any resemblance to the REAL historical characters is purely coincidental. Each volume has the same general format. Janet Morris (creator of the series) buys reprint rights to a top line story from a good author (in _Heroes in Hell_ Greg Benford does a good story on Hemmingway; in _Rebels in Hell_ it is Silverbob on Gilamesh. Both are wonderful. Both were also prepublished in the SF Magazines the month the book came out). The rest of the material is Journeyman at best, mainly by lesser known authors. _Rebels in Hell_ had a second good story: _There are No Fighter Pilots In Hell_ by Martin Caidin. Between that and the Silverberg story, RIH is marginally worth buying. HIH should be avoided. What is really disappointing is that there are a number of Cherryh stories in these volumes, all of them drek. She should definitely be lending some class to the book, and isn't. sigh. If you want to read some good collaborative anthologies, read the two books in the _Liavek_ series: _Liavek_ and _Liavek: The Players of Luck_ edited by Shetterly and Bull. Great stuff, well thought out, and fun. chuq ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 86 02:05:23 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Recycling the Dead James B. VanBokkelen writes: >the recycling of historic personalities. When Farmer first (?) did >it in _Riverworld_ Certainly not first. R. A. Lafferty's _Past_Master_ antedates that, if nothing else. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 86 20:49:26 GMT From: eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu (David Eppstein) Subject: Recycling the Dead franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: > Certainly not first. R. A. Lafferty's _Past_Master_ antedates > that, if nothing else. Try Dante's Divine Comedy. David Eppstein eppstein@cs.columbia.edu seismo!columbia!cs!eppstein ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 86 18:20:06 -0100 From: Jeff Dalton Subject: Bladerunner soundtrack >It gave me much the same feeling (as others have said) that >Bladerunner did, even without the benefit of a Tangerine Dream >soundtrack :-). Just for the record, the Bladerunner soundtrack isn't by Tangerine Dream, it's by Vangelis; and the soundtrack LP isn't by Vangelis (although it's presumably still his music), it's by the New American Orchestra, or some such. I was disappointed by the LP because it's missing the part of the soundtrack that I liked best. I can't, unfortunately, remember which part of the film this was ... but does anyone know if some of the Bladerunner stuff appears on any Vangelis LP? ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 86 14:52:59 PDT (Tuesday) From: WPHILLIPS.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: MAX HEADROOM Recently in the Los Angeles I've been seeing Coka-Cola ads on TV featuring a computer animated figure calling him self Max Headroom. Is this supposed to be the same Max Headroom mentioned on SF-Lovers a few months back? If so is this an indication that the series (it is a british TV series isn't it?) can, or will be seen in the LA area. If it's currently showing, where? ( i.e. cable, PBS video tape?) If not, when? ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 86 15:22:56 GMT From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott) Subject: Re: MAX HEADROOM Max Headroom is a computer model of the hero of a single, hour long film that was first shown on British television (Channel Four) about 18 months ago. There is no drama series of Max Headroom's adventures, but the electronic character was subsequently used as a sort of VJ (infinitely better than anything MTV has to offer) in a series of half-hour shows. The original film is definitely one of television's better contributions to sf combining the imagery of both Blade Runner and Neuromancer (but without Cyberspace) with the kind of surreality one normally associates with the better class of music videos. In fact the directors are better known for their music video work (Ultravox, amongst others I believe). The story line is also pretty good, though those people who insist on bringing "real" science into sf will undoubtedly enjoy complaining about the feasability of the explosive results of blipverts, not to mention the computerisation of a human mind. Anyhow, I don't know if it has, or is being shown on American TV, but it's well worth seeing, so everyone get on the phone to your local station and demand they get hold of it. (Well, Max, today America, tomorrow the world...) Tim Abbott ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Jun 86 0904-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #169 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 28 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 169 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Garrett & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Milan & Robinson & Wells & Williams, Films - What Would You Like to See (3 msgs), Television - Buck Rogers Theme & Star Trek & Max Headroom ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Jun 86 00:26:21 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!ilacqua@caip.rutgers.edu (Elizabeth Lear) Subject: Re: Inqueries about forthcoming releases srouse@pavepaws.UUCP (Sean "Yoda" Rouse) writes: >klr@hadron.UUCP (Kurt L. Reisler) writes: >>Does anyone know what happened to the rumored movie version of the >>Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy? > >According to the May issue of Box Office magazine, it's still in >the development stage. Supposedly, it's being done by Columbia. Last year I helped interview Douglas Adams for the college station when he was in Boston to promote "So Long...". He had just come from Los Angeles where he'd been involved in the infamous pre-pre production, and dropped some hints like "well, I want to use the radio cast in the film, not the BBC-TV cast, but I still don't feel that they have gotten Trillian 'right' yet" and other vague stuff. Interesting notes: Adams' 'voice' is much like that of the Guide itself in the books. He is *very* tall - approx. 6'6" or 6'7". He appears in episode #2 of the BBC production. (I realized this after doing the interview and months later re-watching the 6 episodes - he is the one in the segment about digital watches who walks down the street, into the bank, out to the street, strips on the beach, and walks in the ocean. "And some said we never should have left the ocean") Trivia: The 'Dish of the Day' in Milliways in episode #4 (#5?) is Peter Davison (_Doctor Who_). Sandra Dickinson (Trillian) is Peter Davison's wife (how do you think they got him to do it?). Hotblack Desatio's bodyguard in Milliways (#4? #5?) is David Prowse, the actor who played Darth Vader (but didn't do the voice). eliz ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 86 16:36:20 GMT From: hyper!dean@caip.rutgers.edu (Dean Gahlon) Subject: Re: STARSHIP DEATH by Randall Garrett (mild spoiler) > The jacket reads: > "They were in deep space, past the point of no return, when the > saboteur struck. There were plenty of suspects, including an > experimental robot, and many possible motivations. But when they > found the first body, they knew they were facing a ruthless > killer who would murder them all if he was not caught -- and > blow up the ship if he was." > > Much as I enjoyed the Lord Darcy books, I can only give this book > 2.0 stars out of 4.0 (its fair, but I went through the second half > somewhat fast just so I could finish it). Gack. _Starship Death_? I much preferred its earlier title of _Unwise Child_. If you're not expecting the story that a melodramatic blurb like the above leads one to expect, it comes off much better. (I count _Unwise Child_ as one of my favorite books. It's not a complex book, particularly, but I find it enjoyable) ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 86 01:21:08 GMT From: nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser) Subject: Another Lazarus Long Question I have read "Methuselah's Children", "Time Enough for Love", & "The Number of the Beast", by RAH. I have not yet read "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls", which apparently also includes Lazarus Long. (Possible spoiler follows) In TEFL, just before going back in time, LL is convinced to (to put it in polite language) father children to be carried by his "sisters", Lapus Lazuli and Lorelei Lee. In TNOTB, a lot of stuff that happened after TEFL is explained by the characters, but no mention is ever made of the children they were going to have. Does anybody know what happened here? Also, on the back cover of the edition of TEFL I read, one of the blurbs about LL said "...A man so in love with time that he became his own ancestor..." I haven't been able to figure out what in the story this referred to. Any ideas about this? Thanks in advance for any answers, Nathan Glasser nathan@mit-eddie.uucp nathan@mit-xx.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 86 06:55:17 GMT From: chapman@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Another Lazarus Long Question Is there ANY evidence that the fools who write those blurbs EVER first read the book they're writing about?!? I have yet to see any. Brent Chapman chapman@pavepaws.berkeley.edu ucbvax!pavepaws!chapman ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 86 13:52:14 GMT From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: THE CYBERNETIC SAMURAI by Victor Milan ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (e.c.leeper) writes: >... [Milan] does have a major problem however--he doesn't seem to >know the difference between Japan and China. He speaks of writing >Japanese with Chinese characters and makes references to classic >Chinese art and other aspects of Chinese life in such a way as to >imply that the Japanese have adopted Chinese culture. This simply >isn't true, and it only serves to jar the reader out of an >otherwise well-drawn society. *Sigh.* Sorry Evelyn, but if it shocked *you* out of the story, it doesn't reveal *Milan's* ignorance, necessarily. 1st point: Japanese *is indeed* written with Chinese characters. These characters (known as *kanji* in Japanese) are chinese through and through, having been imported in the (I think) 10th century CE. Japanese does indeed have OTHER writing methods -- three of them! (katakana, a sort of block-printed syllable-phonetic method; hiragana, which is also a syllabilary (sp?), and romaji, the roman alphabet.) 2nd point: Classical Japanese poetry is often written entirely in Chinese characters, especially in forms that were imported from China. (Admittedly, the most famous form in the West is not -- haiku are commonly written in kana. The 5-7-5 pattern can be really pretty in a syllable script.) 3rd point: well, no, the Japanese have not *adopted* Chinese culture, they have *adapted* it -- much as they are adapting Western culture now. But during the Kamakura period (roughly 13th Cen. CE) Chinese culture was as much an influence on the culture of the upper classes, especially the bushi, that it isn't an unfair thing to claim major similarities. But many of the major facets of Japanese culture were nearly stolen bodily, rather than adapted. Examples: Buddhism, imported from China, and still using the Chinese pronunciations of Sanskrit for the sutras; classical forms of poetry as I've mentioned; Confucious's (oh, hell, I can never get that spelling right -- k'ung-fu-tze, you know what I mean) k'ung-tze's ideas for the organization of society, filial piety, the whole bit; and plenty of others. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jun 86 19:49:39 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: STARDANCE vs A CHORUS LINE A CHORUS LINE opened on Broadway just about 11 years ago (some of you may recall reading stories about the 10th-anniversary celebration, in which they got several hundred alums back on the Shubert stage). The second part of STARDANCE (from after Sharra's "death" to the end of the book version) appeared in ANALOG around Labor Day 1978; the first part had come enough earlier that it was up for a Hugo that year. It's not impossible that the Robinsons had seen ACL; it's just very unlikely. For one thing, they didn't (and don't) have the money for Broadway tickets for another, I think they were already living in Nova Scotia. They MAY have heard the soundtrack recording. But Sharra is so obviously Jeanne Robinson (to people who know Jeanne at all---I do, some, because she was GoH at a con I ran) that borrowing of Val (the "Dance 10, Looks 3" character) is totally unbelievable. Also, even if Sharra weren't too tall, reducing "an ass that looks like both halves of a prize muskmelon" (S pt.I) to ]serious[ dance standards is a much bigger job than "tighten[ing] up the derriere"---it would ruin her balance, for one thing. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jul 86 06:36:51 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Wells..a great or not? >As I talk with teachers and I read more, I keep geting the >impression that teachers, librarians, and to be quite frank with >you, almost everyone I talk to feels that H. G. Wells is not a >"Literary Great". Now, I have read a lot of his work ( (Specificly >_Time_Machine_, _The_ Invisible_Man_, and _War_of_the_ Worlds_ and >I feel from an overall standpoint trying to to rule out my love of >science Fiction and I see him as one of the greatest writers of >all time. How About you? Trust your instincts as least as far as science fiction goes. Yes, Wells is the greatest science fiction writer. You have that on my word as an authority :-). I am constantly amazed at how many modern ideas of science fiction are reflected in obscure little stories by this man as well as his better known works. I believe he invented the alien invasion novel, the time travel story, the germ warfare story, and many more. In the 1914 novel THE WORLD SET FREE he describes a new form of warfare using bombs that would destroy entire cities that were dropped from airplanes. These bombs would be used in global wars of a scope not seen before when he wrote this pre-WWI novel. He calls these bombs "atomic bombs." In the novel they reduce mankind to savagery. And his stories are often very good fiction as well as having an amazing assortment of predictions. I am not sure there would be a separate science fiction literature today if he hadn't popularized it. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 86 15:27:06 GMT From: loral!dml@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis) Subject: Re: THE BREAKING OF NORTHWALL by Paul O. Williams (mild Subject: spoiler) duane@anasazi.UUCP (Duane Morse) writes: >The jacket reads: > "To the Pelbar, the sentence seemed a living death -- exile to > distant Northwall for a year, isolated from the security and > order of Pelbarigan society, facing the barbarian tribes of the > Shumai and Sentani. This is but the first book in what either Paul O. Williams or his publisher has termed the `Pelbar cycle'. So far there are seven books: 1. The Breaking of Northwall 2. The Ends of the Circle 3. The Dome in the Forest 4. The Fall of the Shell 5. An Ambush of Shadows 6. The Song of the Axe 7. The Sword of Forbearance All are very good despite the fact that Paul's characters tend to speak in short, choppy sentences, which gets slightly irritating after a while. That hasn't stopped me from buying each of the seven as soon as it appeared on the bookstore shelf though. An interesting study in different cultures. There are the Pelbar, who live in walled stone cities like huge castles and are ruled by women; the Sentani who live with only what they can carry with them, migrating north in spring and south in autumn; the Shumai who live in the Central American plains and alone of the groups retain horses..in Song of the Axe we are shown a group living in a valley surrounded by glaciers who think the whole rest of the world is frozen over (descendants of the `nuclear winter' believers?)... The seven books cover a span of about 25 years and show much of the former United States and some of Canada. Dave Lewis Loral Instrumentation San Diego {gould9|sdcc3|crash}!loral!dml ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 86 12:09:00 GMT From: daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp) Subject: Films of favourite sf books rael@ihlpa.UUCP writes: >What flicks would you like to see made from your favorite SF books? >(this could be interesting!) I've discussed this before with sf-loving friends, and we came to the conclusion that the Stainless Steel Rat books (Harry Harrison) would make really good films - provided that the writer/director/whole production team had the appropriate bizarre sense of humour. We could never agree on an actor to play the mighty Slippery Jim DiGriz though - Harrison Ford or James Caan perhaps?? And who would play the delectable Angelina????? :-) David Allsopp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jun 86 08:39 EDT From: Schneider.wbst@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #164 >What flicks would you like to see made from your favorite SF books? >(this could be interesting!) I always thought "The Mote in God's Eye" was great schlock and would make a good flick, although putting together a reasonable Motie might be difficult. Eric ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 86 23:36:22 GMT From: utastro!howard@caip.rutgers.edu (Howard Coleman) Subject: Re: Films of favourite sf books aa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp) writes: > I've discussed this before with sf-loving friends, and we came >to the conclusion that the Stainless Steel Rat books (Harry >Harrison) would make really good films - provided that the >writer/director/whole production team had the appropriate bizarre >sense of humour. Hear, hear! Most any Harrison story that hasn't been done would be a treat. How about The Technicolor Time Machine ? (I suppose Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers would be asking too much.) ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 86 00:01:17 GMT From: warwick!sahunt@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Hunt) Subject: Theme tune of Buck Rogers in 25th Century Today I found myself humming the theme tune from Buck Rogers in the 25th Century, and I wondered if anyone out there knows what the music is (assuming it's not just "theme from Buck Rogers...") I don't mean the opening theme; it's the closing theme I'm interested in. As I remember, there were lyrics at the end of the movie, but none at the end of the TV show. The tune is slow and mostly guitar (if memory serves me right.) Replies by mail, please. Thanks in advance. Steve Hunt Computer Science Dept Warwick University Coventry CV4 7AL, ENGLAND ...mcvax!ukc!warwick!sahunt ...mcvax!ukc!warwick!daisy!cstnbap ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 86 04:39:09 GMT From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott) Subject: Missing Star Trek episodes Some years ago, I heard a rumour that there are 2 or 3 episodes of Star Trek that were never bought up by any British television company. Now that I have made it across the Atlantic, I would very much like to see these episodes but unfortunately do not know their names, or, for that matter, whether or not they really exist. Could someone please enlighten me ? Tim Abbott ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 86 16:02:20 GMT From: tekecs!leonard@caip.rutgers.edu (Leonard Botleman) Subject: Re: MAX HEADROOM From: WPHILLIPS.ES@Xerox.COM >Recently in the Los Angeles I've been seeing Coka-Cola ads on TV >featuring a computer animated figure calling him self Max Headroom. >Is this supposed to be the same Max Headroom mentioned on SF-Lovers >a few months back? If so is this an indication that the series (it >is a british TV series isn't it?) can, or will be seen in the LA >area. If it's currently showing, where? ( i.e. cable, PBS video >tape?) If not, when? I didn't see the previous postings on Max Headroom, but they are probably about the same show. The Max Headroom show is a 30 minute British video show with the character Max Headroom as the VJ. But before the show started showing videos, the background of Max (the character) was set up in several episodes done as science fiction. Cinemax has shown quite a few episodes, but not recently (although Max Headroom has been on at least one Max-Trax special). Max Headroom is actually played by an actor (not computer animation) with gobs of makeup on. The final picture is fiddled with to give it the look of computer animation. Leonard Bottleman tektronix!tekecs!leonard ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Jun 86 0924-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #170 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 28 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 170 Today's Topics: Books - Herbert (4 msgs) & Footfall (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Cyberspace (3 msgs) & Repopulating the Earth (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Jun 86 17:24:44 GMT From: utastro!mccarthy@caip.rutgers.edu (Susan Elizabeth Hill) Subject: Re: Dune Sequels ?? Potential sequels: Lorna Dune Dune What Comes Naturally Dune With the Wind Dunebelow Station Dune, Dune on the Range Dune`t Cry Hush, Hush, Sweet Dune Dune Thousand and One Dune Thousand and Ten Close Encounters of the Dune Kind ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 86 18:12:41 GMT From: utastro!ethan@caip.rutgers.edu (Ethan Vishniac) Subject: Re: Dune Sequels ?? But she failed to mention Dunesbury Dune't Cry For Me Argentina Dune in Flames Dune and Out in Beverly Hills Dunetown Hey Dune (Dune't make it bad) Ethan Vishniac {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU Department of Astronomy University of Texas ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 86 21:05:03 GMT From: utastro!mccarthy@caip.rutgers.edu (Susan Elizabeth Hill) Subject: Re: Dune Sequels ?? I owe Susan Hill an apology: She is not responsible for the Dune sequels being perpetrated in her name and account. Before I sign off, let us not forget: Dune by the Old Mill Stream My Dunie Lies Over the Ocean The Magical Mystery Dune Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Dune I Can't Get No (Dune) Satisfaction Paint it Dune Black Sunday Morning Dune Blues And so on! Richard Bleiler ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 86 03:39:30 GMT From: jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare) Subject: Re: Dune Sequels ?? And, of course, the now-lost collaboration between Herbert and Niven: RINGWORM ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 86 14:36:51 GMT From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: FOOTFALL by Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle (mild spoiler) Time: the near future Place: Earth (mainly USA) and in orbit near the Earth Introduction: Astronomers discover an alien spacecraft heading toward Earth from Saturn. Attempts to communicate with the large ship go unanswered. The Soviets mobilize, and in the US a team of SF writers is assembled to consider the possibility of the aliens being a threat. An American Congressman joins Soviets in their orbiting space station to greet the aliens. The aliens attack: they want to colonize the Earth. Main storylines: the SF writers advising the President; the Congressman and other human prisoners in the alien spacecraft; the aliens trying to figure out human behavior; battles. SF elements: a reasonable amount of technology (one expects this from Niven and Pournelle), very interesting aliens and alien psychology. Critique: the book's a long one (581 pages in paper), and there are lots of characters (4 pages of "dramatis personae" at the start) -- too many characters in fact. I never identified closely with any of them, and I had some difficulty keeping track of who's who. There are a lot of coincidences in the book in terms of people meeting other people they know; this happens in real life, of course, but I think it was carried a little too far in this book. The story has a slow beginning but picks up a lot of speed once the aliens start shooting. I enjoyed the middle 80% of the book more than either end. The conclusion is a bit forced, and there was one instance near the end in which a main character went from being a stranger in the town to being a leading citizen in just a few pages -- very contrived. The idea of SF writers as technical or policy advisors is not a new one; I don't fault the story for using this idea, but I would have liked it better had the team made some mistakes: the never did. Overall, however, I enjoyed the book and recommend it. I give it 3.0 stars out of 4.0. For the net: do you like this format better than the previous way I reviewed books? I welcome comments and suggestions. Duane Morse ...!noao!{mot|terak}!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 86 15:27:55 GMT From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: _Footfall_, Heinlein, and Tolkien PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA writes: >They never did say what year it happened in, anyway. _Footfall_ mostly takes place in approximately 1994. Part of the prologue is dated November 1980, the Voyager Saturn flyby, and later in the book they refer to events in the prologue as having happened almost fifteen years before. pH ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 86 22:28:19 GMT From: fortune!stirling@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick Stirling) Subject: Re: Do you believe in cyberspace ? I realize that this is at a tangent, but I must take exception to some of your statements about the bandwith of different ways of communication: desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes: > The only possible way for a human to transmit large quantities of >information is with the system we currently use when we need to >transmit large quantities of information -- our neuromuscular >control system. > Speech can be used to transmit a maximum of maybe 20-30 >bits/sec, tops. Not true! I can speake approx 5 words/sec, closer to 20/30 BYTES/sec not bits - I've never seen ayone type faster than normal speech. >A typewriter-style keyboard maybe 50 bits/sec. It would simply not >be possible to control an automobile in a crisis situation with >speech. It might be possible with a keyboard and a lot of >training. But we do it *easily* with only a few simple analog >devices! If you had training in a specialized 'language' designed to control a car, I think it would be possible - the average car has a steering wheel, 3 pedals and a gear shift; 5 input devices. voice/keyboard control would definitely be slower (sequential rather then parallel input), but nevertheless possible. > The human neuromuscular control system can use a *single* analog >device (e.g. a steering wheel) to transmit 100+ bits/sec Why does a steering wheel need 100bit/sec ? It's usually static, as are many (perhaps most?) analog control devices. I think 100bit/min might be enough. >And further our bodies operate in such a way that we can control >many individual muscles in our body simultaneously and >automatically. Can you type one text while simultaneously speaking >another? I don't know what the total bandwidth of the human >neuromuscular control system is, but it must be on the order of >10000 bits/sec. It seems to me that you're forgetting about the intented use for the controlled device - the method of control is more dependent on that than on achieving maximum bandwidth. For example, analog control is perhaps better for interactive use (driving), and speech or text control for non-interactive use (programming, navigation). patrick {ihnp4, hplabs, amdcad, ucbvax!dual}!fortune!stirling ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 86 23:53:22 GMT From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Do you believe in cyberspace ? stirling@fortune.UUCP (Patrick stirling) writes: >>Speech can be used to transmit a maximum of maybe 20-30 bits/sec, >>tops. > >Not true! I can speake approx 5 words/sec, closer to 20/30 >BYTES/sec not bits - I've never seen anyone type faster than normal >speech. Not true!! (1) There is no way you can speak at a sustained rate of more than 2-3 words/sec. It is just impossible. The world record for high-speed speech is on the order of 5 words/sec, and this is for a relatively short period. (2) The information rate of English is much less than your estimate of 40 bits/word. A more accurate estimate is 10 bits/word. The vast majority of spoken words come from a relatively small vocabulary; also successive word choices are not independent. Remember that a simple LZ compression algorithm, with no knowledge of English, can compress ASCII text 50% or so, so right away we are down to 20-25 bits/word (3 bytes or so), and without *any* knowledge of English. Another way of looking at this is that you may be able to speak English at a rate of 2-3 words/sec, but there is no way you can speak random text (say, using the digraph frequencies of English to make it pronouncable) at anywhere near this speed. (3) A trained typist can certainly type faster than normal speech. >> It would simply not be possible to control an automobile in a >>crisis situation with speech. It might be possible with a >>keyboard and a lot of training. But we do it *easily* with only a >>few simple analog devices! >> The human neuromuscular control system can use a *single* >>analog device (e.g. a steering wheel) to transmit 100+ bits/sec > >If you had training in a specialized 'language' designed to control >a car, I think it would be possible - the average car has a >steering wheel, 3 pedals and a gear shift; 5 input devices. >voice/keyboard control would definitely be slower (sequential >rather then parallel input), but nevertheless possible. Why does a >steering wheel need 100bit/sec ? It's usually static, as are many >(perhaps most?) analog control devices. I think 100bit/min might be >enough. The point is that *usually* you don't need nearly this much bandwidth. But in an emergency situation you are going to have a *lot* of trouble controlling the steering quickly and accurately without a substantial bandwidth. And you need to do lots of other things at the same time -- pump the brakes, perhaps downshift, .... >It seems to me that you're forgetting about the intented use for >the controlled device - the method of control is more dependent on >that than on achieving maximum bandwidth. For example, analog >control is perhaps better for interactive use (driving), and speech >or text control for non-interactive use (programming, navigation). Here *you* are making an assertion that speech/text has some inherent advantage that makes up for its low bandwidth. I see no evidence for this. Can you give any reason for your complete rejection of the notion of analog computer interfaces? David desJardins ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 86 00:02:23 GMT From: utastro!howard@caip.rutgers.edu (Howard Coleman) Subject: Re: Cyberspace desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) writes: > You have to remember that everything is being analyzed and > reinterpreted so that it can be sensibly interpreted by the human. > No doubt this would involve eliminating a lot of essentially > useless information. But in any case it is certain that all of > the massaging that is done on the data would be carefully designed > with an eye on things like human response time and the rate at > which humans can process information. I think this is getting to the real point. Any data about what's going on in cyberspace has to be thinned by many orders of magnitude to allow for the difference in processing speeds. A point made earlier, that the cyberspace cowboys were specially trained individuals, and that it was just that training which permitted them to interpret the world beyond the decks, is probably the point on which such a possibility must hinge. If you think that any human can accomodate enough data to make cyberspace more than a (very) pretty status monitor, then there is no problem. I'm obviously a little uncomfortable with the notion, myself. I wonder if a simpler form of the problem has already been encountered by the folks responsible for the control systems of fighter planes. I noticed recently that the new version of the F-16 control system is being flown in tests. While the communications are optical and not neural, I would guess that those head-up displays can produce a lot of data in a hurry. Fighter pilots are intensively trained toward what one hopes is peak performance. How much data can they handle and usefully react to ? Anybody out there who knows about such things (and can talk about it) ? Howard Coleman ut-sally!utastro!howard Astronomy Department University of Texas ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 86 13:16 PDT From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Repopulating the Earth To quote an old line, "It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it." Considering Murphy's Law, wouldn't they have all kinds of problems? What about the sheer volume? Isn't is likely that something will get bent out of shape or that Mom would have complications? We would hope that Dad knows something about Obstetrics and that is isn't faint hearted. Then we'll need some luck or other tools for preventing infection. I hope none of the kiddies is born prematurely or else we'll need a compromised baby warmer (unless the hospital is still standing and not full of dead plague victims). Then there's the problem of feeding all those babies without the help of Gerber. Remember, food is necessary for Mom, Dad and all the kids. Mom has her hands full, that leaves Dad doing all the real work (as it should be in any macho end of the world story) and grubbing up food. With a simple collapse of society due to the sudden death of the populace there should be enough supplies to last a few generations, particularly if the family is near a decent sized city. I haven't even addressed the problem of diapers, although there probably will be a sufficient supply of pampers in the stores. Add to that the problem of diaper rash and Dad will be raiding every store in the vicinity just to stock up by the time the grandkids start rolling out. Granted he should have help by then, but has he had time to teach them much about the world as it was? He and Mom are the soul survivers of Mankind, they also have to serve as the repositories of knowledge. At minimum, every kid must be taught to read and let loose with library (before being let loose with each other). Being a complete idiot, I feel that it would be possible, although unlikely, to repopulate the world from just two people. They would have to be young, healthy, and very lucky. They wouldn't have to be very horny, since every nine months or so would be sufficient and any more would detract from the other activities that are necessary to support the whole project. More interesting would be a story about the 10th or 100th generation and their ideas for history and morality. An orgy every month for all the unpregnant ladies? Is there a word for "not pregnant"? Would they invent one? What would their reaction to defective children be? How about sterile people? Where would love fit in? Needless to say, the whole thing would be a mess. There are more problems than just "can they?" Jon ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 86 23:18:37 GMT From: jhardest @ Wheeler-EMH Subject: Population Growth & Mass Human Extermination It had been discussed that if a large portion of either the male or female population was wiped out, that the human race would be basic exterminated as a whole. Not Really. There are several factors to consider. The first factor is the male/female ratio of each particular region. If 95% of the women or men of a region are wiped out, granted the human population as a whole is severly setback; but if a region has like twelve women to each man in it; getting rid of 11 women will just make the population growth factor real slow. The other factors are environment, technology, food supply, economy, and livelihood. If a region has sufficient natural food stuufs, few predatorial problems, and a mild ecosystem, that region will slowly grow (re-populate). Granted, the human level of technology/social structure will suffer... but what the H*LL, mankind has wiped itself out, almost, several times in the past 5000 years, but we always came back. John Hardesty jhardest@wheeler-emh ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Jun 86 0940-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #171 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 29 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 171 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jun 86 01:25:02 -0800 From: Alastair Milne To: Chris McMenomy Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #152 Chris McMenomy writes: > 2. At the time of Ar-Pharazon the Golden, when the Numenoreans >attempted to land on Aman the Blessed, the "Valar gave up their >guardianship and called upon the One". This implies first that >Illuvitar was still the ultimate authority and overseer of Arda, >since the Valar are only Guardians of the world; secondly, and more >importantly, Illuvitar is the agent for the destruction of Numenor. >It is not the Valar who cast it into the sea and reform the lands, >but the One. So at least once Illuvitar meddles fairly >significantly in the affairs of Middle Earth after it has been >created. Very interesting. I had always assumed that what was meant was that, for that moment, the Valar laid down their Guardianship. It never occurred to me it might have become a permanent arrangement. It seems it was traditional for the Dunedain, at least, to consider that they could still be called upon. Remember the battle in Ithilien, when the Southrons' Mumak stampeded? "'Ware! 'Ware! The Valar turn him aside!" But perhaps it was just an expression. Chris McMenomy continues: >3. There are hints at a guiding power for good in LotR. Gandalf >says at one point "All I can say is that Bilbo was meant to find >the Ring, and not by its maker". He is clearly implying that >Someone is helping the good guys. It can't be the Valar, for they >have laid down their guardianship and meddle in the affairs of >Middle Earth only through human agents like the Istari, by >persuasion and not by force. Recall also Elrond's opening statement to all the strangers who had gathered in his house for the Council: "...called, I say, though I have not called you to me...", and his further admonition to believe that their meeting was not by accident, rather, that they had been chosen to decide the fate of the Ring, and none other. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 86 00:00:55 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: The One Ring milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes: > About preservation: quite correct; it had slipped my mind. >Which it shouldn't have, really, since it was perhaps the dearest >to the Elves -- to be able to keep all that the loved about Middle >Earth unstained forever. Which of course they couldn't do, and >that was one of their greatest sadnesses. Wonderfully worded, you have a true understanding of things Elvish! >My opinion is that it was Galadriel's own power, as the greatest >Noldorin princess in Middle Earth and a kinswoman of Feanor >himself, that was the basis of Lorien's defence, and that she used >the Ring to amplify and broaden it. I certainly agree, though, >that it must have been Nenya which, amplifying the natural >beneficial effect of the Elves on their surroundings, made Lorien >seem a living, breathing corner of the Elder Days. > >Interesting. I would have said that Elrond's wisdom was earned >through his own experiences: the son of Earendil, and the brother >of the first king of Numenor. But, as Aragorn said, "that does not >make what you say untrue", since Elrond was certainly a bearer of a >Ring and, as he himself said, they were all at work. > >I think the arguments associating Narya with Gandalf's command of >fire are astray. In the Tale of Years (one of LotR's appendices), >the chronology of the Third Age begins with an account of Cirdan's >words to Gandalf when he yielded Narya. I don't remember it all, >but the most explicit part says that the Ring will help Gandalf >raise flagging hearts, and I think that was the true aim of Narya: >to build morale and cooperation, and keep grief from incapacitating >people. Remember, too, that all the Istari had their special >skills, yet they didn't have Rings. If any artefact was needed for >their powers, it was their staffs. Certainly Gandalf's did its >fair share. You probably have a real insight here! I had forgotten that the Rings of Power in general tended to enhance the native abilities of their bearers rather than give them new powers. Thus Elrond who was already wise in experience gained great wisdom indeed, and the ability to use that wisdom effectively. And Galadriel, who loved Middle Earth at its best, and desired above all to preserve its beauty, and who had turned all her great Noldorin power to that end found her Ring gave her the ability to accomplish that end, for a little while at least. And Gandalf, who was in fact Olorin - the Maia of Inspiration and Morale - found his power in that area enhanced tremendously. Certainly the healing of Theoden was remarkable for its speed and completeness! >>In that case Frodo's perception of Galadriel's Ring and her secret >>desires was the first sign of the increase in the power of the One >>Ring, since he managed to do so in *spite* of the power of >>Galadriel and the supression of other powers! > >You seem very much to want to attribute everything to Rings!:) A >major point of the scene at the Mirror of Galadriel, so it seemed >to me, was that Frodo had matured considerably, gaining wisdom of >his own. And while he had gathered more about Galadriel than would >most, I think if he actually had seen her hidden desires, he would >never have taken the risk of offering her the One. Let her be >tested in some other way, not with the safety of all Middle Earth. >But in fact, he was so impressed with her power, wisdom, and grace, >that he believed the Ring could actually safely be given to her, >that it would be safer than with him. Exactly what happened at the Mirror may well never be known, now that Tolkien is dead. Certainly some very subtle and complex interactions were going on there. Frodo's increased wisdom, his increasing awareness of the One Ring and its powers, the impact of seing the Red Eye, and perhaps other factors may well all be involved. >I must say, though, that Galadriel's own words seem to interpret >things differently. She seemed to believe he was testing her, a >"gentle revenge" for her testing his resolve, and that he had >indeed seen her thoughts. I don't know what the answer is here. > >>And where did this power come from? I say it came from her Ring! > >And I say it was intrinsic to her as one of the greatest of the >Noldor, though amplified and extended by the Ring. I would say we are both right! If the basic abilities involved had not been hers to begin with, the Ring could not have helped her, but on her own she would never have had the power to effect so large a region steadily, nor so effectively. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 86 00:58:24 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: More Rings... From: Alastair Milne >>But is that [power of dominion] not effectively the same thing [as >>moving the wearer to the wraiths' plane]? To exert the power of > >I don't think they're the same thing, because one (the power to >dominate) is the reason for which Sauron forged the Ring in the >first place, whereas the other would be utterly useless to him. >Why would Sauron make himself a ring to pull its wearer into the >wraiths' plane? He was there already, enormously so. Dominion was >what he wanted. Personally, I suspect that the "wraithifying" >effect occurred simply because the power Sauron had placed in the >Ring was based in the wraith's plane, and tended to pull its >wielder toward it. I imagine the power in the Nine was calculated >the same way. (Why do you indicate the Seven had that effect? I >know of no Which is STILL pretty much the same thing. (I may NEVER learn to speak English; the intent I really meant is that the two are so tightly connected that one must accompany the other. The Wraith-world has power over the flesh-world. The Seven -- it's only a theory; they are never explained. But the Seven and the Nine were created at about the same time and by the same collaboration between Celebrimbor and Sauron. So it's a reasonable theory that they were intended to work the same way. Which says a lot for Aule's work in creating the Dwarves... >evidence to suggest it. ) Nor is there any reason to think that >becoming a wraith would impart power. Frodo would have gained >none, had the Ringwraiths seized him; and Gandalf, most definitely >not a wraith, had great power; so too, in a different way, had >Aragorn. Wraiths have the power of terror. Admitted, Frodo's power was less than any other in the dell under Weathertop at the time; but then, it is a thing that must be learned to be wielded. >>How do you ``know'' someone's mind without reading it? Also >>recall toward the end of RETURN OF THE KING where Gandalf, >>Galadriel and Elrond stand around and mindchat at each other (``If >>any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or >>heard.... For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from >>mind to mind...''). And those were only the Three. > >Sorry, I was unclear. I meant that the Ring would let you see the >minds of those whom you dominated, which would presumably never >include Sauron. But while Frodo was painfully aware, through the >Ring, of Sauron's presence and vigilance, he never saw Sauron's >thoughts, or he would have found out much about the West -- he >might even have learned that Gandalf was still alive. Frodo wasn't powerful enough, as stated in the Mirror of Galadriel part. >I always thought that the "mindchat" was a native skill of three of >the Wise involved, seldom used, but nevertheless available. But on >reflection, I'm sure that the Three would at least enhance their >abilities. Don't forget, though, that this is communications among >willing parties, and not spying or invasion. The Rings only make the communication possible. Of course, it helps if the participants are willing, and an unwilling-enough (and powerful-enough mind, namely Galadriel's) can block even the One Ring. Remember that Galadriel and Elrond are Noldor, and never is it mentioned that the Noldor have this ability. Gandalf is another matter... >As you suggested, I reread the Mirror of Galadriel (thanks!) Frodo >asks why he, the Ringbearer, is not permitted to see the thoughts >of the others, and Galadriel says he has not tried (and not to). >She also says that she is aware of all of Sauron's mind that >concerns the Elves. But as I thought, no connection is made >between what she can see and the One. Given that she has said that the Rings confer the ability to know the minds and thoughts of others to those with the requisite mental stature, this seemed obvious. >>I never said [Sauron] could PINPOINT [the Ring]. But he was >>DEFINITELY aware that some great power was approaching his realm. > >I'm sorry, I still don't see this. I recall nothing to indicate >even such moderate awareness. Think of the opportunities he >missed: when the Nazgul turned and swept the Dead Marshes, over the >hobbits' heads; when the Witch Argument in my favor. The Nazgul felt it, albeit dimly, and made a sweep of the Marshes. Not getting anything clearer, it left. >King lead Mordor's first armies out of Minas Morgul, with the Ring >itself lying right opposite him, across the valley; when Frodo was >captured But the King of Angmar FELT it. Reread, please. He felt it, again dimly. Frodo's weakness of mind undoubtedly saved him, as the Ring had no powerful mind to draw upon to put out traceable power. >and Sam was actually wearing the Ring in Mordor; when the Nazgul >landed on Ditto. Sam, not having worn the Ring before, is even weaker mentally than Frodo, which is the only thing that saved him. >>No doubt when Aragorn revealed himself to Sauron, his suspicions >>were allayed until too late. > >Excuse me, is this quite what you mean? The very last that knowing >of Aragorn would have done is allay suspicion. Aragorn revealed >himself to scare Sauron into attacking too hastily, with his power >not quite fully developed, and to add to the number of distractions >to keep Sauron's attention from Mordor. I was unclear again. Sauron felt a great power approaching Mordor, but didn't know what power. When Aragorn revealed himself, Sauron became convinced that Aragorn was in fact the power, and that he might even have the Ring. So believing, and able to trace Aragorn, he no longer worried about the unidentified power, since he'd obviously identified it... and in the meantime, Frodo carried the REAL power toward Orodruin. >>It WAS mentioned a number of times, however, that Sauron and his >>servants could feel the power of the Ring, and demonstrated that >>they could not pinpoint it even up close (else Frodo would have >>been caught immediately in Gorgoroth; the King of Angmar could >>feel the Ring nearby but couldn't tell quite where). > >Quite true, but they had to be VERY close to feel it. Sauron would >have had the Nazgul in the Shire years before they actually were >had he been able to feel it, rather then spending years in fear as >his spies went everywhere they could trying to find word of it. >"Unfinished Tails" tells of this in The Hunt for the Ring. Which is what I've been trying to say. Sauron could feel the Ring, but bot its location to any extent. Together these are necessary and sufficient. >>I interpreted [event at Amon Hen] as:Sauron felt the Ring and was >>able to begin pinpointing its location, but Gandalf attracted his >>location while telling Frodo to take the Ring off; when he did, >>Sauron could no longer pinpoint it. > >"His attention", I think you mean :) My assumption is that, on that >high I noticed that after it was too late to edit it... :-( >seat, the Ring started calling, and the call is what Sauron felt, >the distinction being that the Ring had to initiate the action; >furthermore, once it had stopped, Sauron had nothing more to follow >(thank God). As I hinted above, the Ring needs to be worn to have any measurable power. This explains the scene quite well and fits ion with the Ring's other capabilities, which require it to be worn. >>The Ring is poweful but requires a mind in living circuit with it >>to set its power loose (doesn't that sound familiar? :-). So >>someone had to be wearing it before Sauron or the Nazgul could do >>anything more than be aware that there was a lot of power >>somewhere nearby. > >Though they might try to make the Ring more prominent by pressuring >the bearer to put it on -- still just the Nazgul, though, not >Sauron. The contact with a mind certainly seems true, though >perhaps not universally > -- it seemed to arrange its own loss from Gollum, though he seldom >wore it by that time ``Behind that there was someething else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was *meant* to find the Ring, and *not* by its maker.'' This may also have applied to its slipping away from Gollum; on the other hand the Ring DOES have power when not worn, it just works more slowly and subtly, as it has less power to use for its ``purposes''. >and Frodo (obviously) never wore it in Gorgoroth, but its effect on >him was still terrible. There is a passage I wish I could remember >accurately when Sam, about to throw away his pans, asks if Frodo >can remember stewed rabbit in Ithilien. Frodo answers that he >cannot, though he knows it happened; that no sight or sound of >grass, no breath of air, is left to him; that he is naked in the >dark with only the wheel of fire. A magnificent and terrifying >passage. I'll look it up when I get home. See above. It's a knife edge, the strange power of this Ring... >>Of course, I may revise this in another reading. I've been >>through the books nine times and STILL I'm finding things... > >AMEN!!! I think I make it more than ten times (I've lost count), >and the discoveries haven't stopped yet. Nine is just a guess. I first read it when I was eight; who knows how many times I've read it since then? I'd read it more often but it's too large! BTW, this is my definition of a Good Book: it continues to grow on the tenth reading, or the hundredth. Brandon ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Jun 86 1034-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #172 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 29 Jun 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 172 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 86 19:41:13 -0800 From: Alastair Milne Subject: Re: The One Ring > . . .There is considerable evidence that the Elves had a hand in >the making of the Seven and the Nine, and that they were *all* made >*before* the One. Thus I would say: > > 0) The Elves begin to learn ring-lore, ... > 1) Sauron hears of this and comes in fair guise ... > 2) The Elves and Sauron together make a number of Ring of > Power,... > 3) The Elves, ... make at least three more, on thier own, ... > 4) Sauron retires to Mordor and makes the One Ring in Orodruin, > 5) Sauron begins pass out the Rings of Power in his possession ... I definitely misremembered the sequence of the creation of the Rings. Your revised sequence is a lot closer. A minor point I might debate is that it appears the idea of Rings originated with "Annatar", proposed as a means of making Eriador as great as Beleriand had been, and suggesting that Gil-Galad and Elrond would not talk to him because they didn't rivals to the glories of their lands. It seems the idea of being able to build and preserve that which they loved as sufficient bait for them. But then, it doesn't really matter with whom the idea started: it was a powerful lever for Sauron against the Elves, and that's what matters. Silmarillion states that when the Elves learned of Sauron's betrayal and rejected him, in his anger at the failure of his scheme (the hoped-for conquest of the all the Elven rings), he came in force and demanded the Rings, saying they would never have been forged but for him. Though the Three were hidden, eventually he was able to seize all the others. Then, as you say, he took sixteen of them (the sixteen newest and most potent, I assume), perverted them (which was relatively easy because he'd had a hand in their making), and gave them out to the seven houses of the Dwarves, and to Men. The Silmarillion says he gave nine to Men because they proved, in this as in other matters, the readiest to his will (I'm not at all sure I like the sound of that). > While the Seven do not achieve all that Sauron had hoped for >them, I would not call them total failures. They are probably the >reason for the almost total estrangement of Dwarves from the other >races, and thier reputation for greed. Certainly much harm was done >to Sauron's enemies because of them. Also, I would say that he was >*completely* successful in "recalling" the Seven. Remember, dragons >were, in general, controlled by Sauron, so if dragons destroyed any >of the Seven it was at Sauron's behest. Whether from anybody else's viewpoint they were partially successful, Sauron had intended them as "hooks", to enslave the Dwarves, which they didn't do at all. It was for this reason that he wanted to recall all of them (I read this explicitly somewhere, but I just can't remember where right now -- possibly one of LotR's appendices). The Rings may also have turned the Dwarves into actual rivals in at least one thing: the gaining of mithril. Both Dwarves and Sauron loved it, and harboured it jealously. As far as I know, the Dwarves were always estranged from others, to one degree or another. They never had, for instance, the immediate friendship that arose between Men and Elves. Their languages and customs were kept very much to themselves. But it seems to me that, in the case of the house of Durin at least, the Rings couldn't have increased it that much, or the co-operation with the Elven smiths and the openness of Khazad-Dum would never have occurred. I can't think offhand where they brought great harm to Sauron's enemies -- I think they brought more harm to the Orcs -- remember the vicious war over Moria. Though it is true enough that the Dwarves became greedier and more secretive, and certainly some of the consequences of that were to Sauron's advantage. Sauron was *not* completely successful in recalling the Seven: he wanted them all back, not just out of the Dwarves' hands. I read, though I can't remember where, that he recovered three of them. The others were consumed by dragons, including the great Ancalagon the Black. And I do *not* think the dragons were controlled by Sauron, though he would have been quick to take advantage of them, had the situation arisen. As far as I know they were free agents, utterly selfish, serving no-one. Sauron could hardly have been pleased at the loss of four of the most powerful Rings, when they might still have become great weapons in his hands. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 86 06:17:53 GMT From: watnot!jrsheridan@caip.rutgers.edu (James R. Sheridan) Subject: Rings...last comment (kinda long) Hi folx...I don't want to beat this into the ground but I would like to make a few comments on how the three Elven rings affected the wearers. Nenya - This was the one given to Galadriel to keep. I view this ring as one which preserved and enhanced the beauty of the land around it. It's also reflected in the beauty of Galadriel herself (coincidence??). Vilya - This one was given to Elrond. This one preserves wisdom and knowledge. Was not Rivendell the Last Homely Home wherein much wisdom was stored...in all forms: song, prose, and personal experience. This trait is also reflected in the character of Elrond (coincidence??) Narya - This one was originally given to Cirdan who then passed it along to Gandalf when he realized that he would have much more need of it and could make better use of it. This ring preserves and uplifts the spirits of those around it. Ever notice how people are always sad to see him leave and how he always manages to make those around him feel better? Gandalf himself is very often described in words which conjure thoughts of flame and fire....(coincidence??) Looked at as a group, you begin to wonder... Now, the Istari tend to specialize in something right? Saruman tries to figure out the lost art of making the Great Rings. Radagast studies nature and animals and Gandalf seems to have studied fire and flame (He is a master when it comes to fireworks anyway :-). Elrond, being a Half-Elf, is of course long-lived and gathers much knowledge and wisdom over the years and Galadriel is one of last of the High Elves in Middle-Earth and one of the most beautiful (Arwen comes first I think). Now, while I don't think you can say that Gandalf's skill with fire, Elrond's knowledge and wisdom, or Galadriel's beauty was a result of their being holders of the Three Rings, I would like to suggest that they were chosen in part for those very qualities and that the rings enhanced them in the wearers. Would it not make sense to give a ring which preserves beauty to one who is beautiful; one which preserves wisdom to one who is wise; one which enflames passions to one who deals in flame??? In Galadriel's case, she very likely has a "green thumb" and obviously loves beautiful trees and such. Being one of the mighty left in Middle-Earth she is a natural to possess a ring which is used to enhance and preserve beauty. Elrond is wise and mighty and is likewise a fine choice for a guardian. He also has a stronghold far from Mordor. Gandalf is a late comer to Middle-Earth and thus received his ring from Cirdan. Cirdan was initially a good choice I suppose because they then had a ring in each of the major Elven homes: Rivendell, Gray Havens, and Lorien. When Gandalf came from the Valar to begin his work, Cirdan immediately saw that he had a long and heavy burden. It was natural for him to pass on the ring, especially to one who worked with fire (You might almost say it was ordained by "SOMEONE" - And yes, I think it was a factor in his fight with the Balrog). Anyway, as I see it, the Three Rings were given to people who could best make use of them. They ENHANCED the natural abilities of the wearers in certain areas and PRESERVED them in others. (Whew! - Please, any flames by E-MAIL [if you feel strongly about 'em] ) James R. Sheridan Faculty of Mathematics University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Canada {utzoo|allegra|ihnp4|decvax|clyde}!watmath!watnot!jrsheridan ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 86 13:06:36 GMT From: bonnie!ron@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald Zasadzinski) Subject: Re: Illuvatar's meddling in Middle Earth From: winalski%psw.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Paul S. Winalski) >In SFL Vol. 11, Issue 160, Christe McMenomy writes: >> 3. There are hints at a guiding power for good in LotR. >>Gandalf says at one point "All I can say is that Bilbo was meant >>to find the Ring, and not by its maker". He is clearly implying >>that Someone is helping the good guys. It can't be the Valar, for >>they have laid down their guardianship and meddle in the affairs >>of Middle Earth only through human agents like the Istari, by >>persuasion and not by force. > >There certainly are hints of a guiding power. I am convinced that >it is the Vala Ulmo. I think that it was through Ulmo's power that >Bilbo found the ring. Anyway, I do NOT think that the guiding >force for good was Illuvatar. Illuvatar created Arda in the first >place to show Melkor and the Ainur who followed him the folly of >their ways. Aside from the one incident of Numenor, Illuvatar let >the history of the Music of the Ainur run its course. I DO think it was Iluvitar's design and NOT Ulmo or any Vala's power that caused Bilbo to find The Ring. I have been reading The Lost Tales and It is *quite* evident in those stories that Iluvitar with the music of the Anuir and his own ideas set up the destinies of Middle-Earth and all inhabitants. I think that the quote above "...meant to find The Ring, and not by it's maker" supports this, that from the very beginning of time it was Bilbo's destiny to find The Ring. In Lost Tales one of the Vala (Manwe?) reminds the others that all that happens is of Iluvitar's design, and all leads to the greater beauty of his creations. I will try to find this quote tonight and post it shortly. Ron ihnp4!bonnie!ron ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 86 13:27:16 GMT From: bonnie!ron@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald Zasadzinski) Subject: Re: Orcs chris@maryland.UUCP (Lindor) writes: >daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp) writes: >>As we all know, Elves are immortal, their lives being bound to >>Middle-Earth and all that; so, *does the same apply to Orcs???* > >We certainly hope not! Seriously, we have no evidence that Orcs >are immortal---though on the other hand none of us here have seen >an Orc dead of anything but violence, either. For that matter, I >myself have never seen an Orc at all---for which I am thankful. >But unless Orcs have as low a birth rate as we do (and ours is in >some measure voluntary), the world would be buried ten deep in >orc-bodies, were they immortal. Well perhaps not, but I imagine >you get the idea. > >>And what happens to a dead Orc? >Does it go to a special section >of the Halls Of Nienor (sp?) >and get reborn later on, like Elves >do (I think)? > >I have yet to meet a reborn Elf. Yet I have heard of mortals said >to be born again---whatever that may mean. Some clarification on immortality and the death of men: For elves, they are immortal, meaning they can only die by being killed with force or can die from overwhelming grief. When they die, elves go to the Halls of Mandos for some time, then are 'reborn' in their children. Thus all elven 'spirits' walk Middle Earth until The Great End. As for men, their fate is not as final as one may think. When 'Mortals' die, their spirits go to the lands west of Valinor and wander there in shadow until The Great End. So the spirits of men also survive until the End of the world, but do not regain physical representation and are confined, unlike the immortal elves. Just what does happen to Orcs? I don't know. If they are corrupted and deformed elves, perhaps they too are reborn in their children. On the other hand, they may have been so badly deformed that their spirits were alo effected, and they do not get reborn. In this case what happens? Do they too like men wander the lands west of Valinor until the great end? Do they go as spirits to serve Melko? Or do they just 'die' and disappear forever? That wouldn't be consistent with the death of all other races however. Any explanations? Ron ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 86 04:46:56 GMT From: ulowell!dobro@caip.rutgers.edu (Gryphon) Subject: The One Ring There seems to be some misunderstanding about what I meant in my prevous posting regarding a second 'one' ring for Sauron. The 'One' mentioned in the sencond stanza is the Ruling Ring, the one that Frodo and Bilbo carry around. The 'one' [notice small letter] from the first stanza is the other ring, the ring that nobody mentions. Anyway, this twist was just a thought, something to banter about. It was not meant to start an argument, only a discussion. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 86 20:25:42 GMT From: tekecs!leonard@caip.rutgers.edu (Leonard Botleman) Subject: Re: Rings AGAIN?! allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >Celebrimbor was powerful, but not that much so, I think. Remember >that he was only and Elf; Sauron is a Maia. Yes, but remember that Celebrimbor's grandfather, Feanor, was "only an Elf", and yet he made the Silmarils and the Pilantiri, which were, as Gandalf said, beyond the skill of Sauron to make. Leonard Bottleman tektronix!tekecs!leonard ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 86 09:55:05 GMT From: pete@stc.co.uk Subject: Moral Choice in LOTR While the LOTR discussion is under way ... It always struck me as a flaw in the book that all the characters or groups except one get the opportunity to make the choice between Good and Evil. The missing group is the Orcs. Is this because they were Sauron's creation and hence wholly evil? It still seems wrong, though, that they are given no chance to repent, or even to choose. Peter Kendell ...!mcvax!ukc!stc!pete ------------------------------ Date: Thu 26 Jun 86 06:56:14-PDT From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #165 The claim that Sauron's repentance at the end of the First Age was probably genuine is from Tolkien. Either in The Silmarillion or in Unfinished Tales, it discusses Sauron's being terrified by the might of the Valar ("Mommie, I mean Morgoth, never told me there'd be days like this...") and that if only to save his hide he wanted to try being a good guy. But when he was told he had to go back to Valinor to be judged he fled, since he feared he'd get punished in Valinor and have no escape. Elsewhere, Tolkien makes it quite clear that part of the nature of evil is that it cannot understand good, which was one of the main weapons Gandalf, Galadriel, etc. had against Sauron. They all knew what Sauron was up to but Sauron had no way of understanding their plans. I don't really like comparing Middle Earth with the Star Wars universe (the former is much richer), but comparing Sauron with a Darth Vader makes some sense. Both were corrupted by a greater force. The main difference was that Sauron was the #1 bad guy for millenia and had none of the motivating factors that turned Darth back. So if Sauron's evil in the first millenium of the Second Age is up for debate, the ring's is not. Repeatedly, the ring is stated to be totally evil and to exert a corrupting effect upon its bearer. It would corrupt Sauron as well. Sauron willingly made the ring and wore it, with (we presume) full knowledge of its ultimate effect on him. But I still claim it's a mistake to compare the Sauron of the Third Age with the Sauron of the first millenium of the Second Age and say he was just as bad earlier as later. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Jul 86 0858-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #173 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 1 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 173 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Greeley & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Herbert (3 msgs) & Repopulation Story & The Orion Project, Television - Space: 1999, Miscellaneous - The Net and Space (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Jun 86 08:20:53 GMT From: eneevax!hsu@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Hsu) Subject: Re: Inqueries about forthcoming releases ilacqua@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Elizabeth Lear) writes: > Interesting notes: > Adams' 'voice' is much like that of the Guide itself in the > books. He is *very* tall - approx. 6'6" or 6'7". He appears in > episode #2 of the BBC production. (I realized this He also has this annoying habit of sneaking into the perimeter of his audience just before a guest spot. When he spoke here back when GB&TFATF first came out, everybody piled into one of the largest lecture halls on campus, and spilled out into the hallways. On both floors. And there was this tall gent, wearing the _same_ leather jacket as appears on the back cover of the book (which, of course, was in a lot of hands that night), looking bemused at all the people straining to see an empty podium. Needless to say, many spectators were aghast when he strode out from among them. During the giveaway of autographed copies, the question to answer was "who was the last president of the galaxy before Zaphod Beeblebrox?", which went unanswered for three minutes despite a flurry of flipped pages (correct answer: Yooden Vranx (sp?)). "I didn't remember that myself" - Douglas Adams David Hsu (301) 454-1433 -8798 Communication & Signal Processing Lab Engineering Computer Facility The University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 ARPA:hsu@eneevax.umd.edu UUCP:[seismo,allegra,rlgvax]!umcp-cs!eneevax!hsu ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 86 13:59:47 GMT From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: The_God_Game by Andrew M. Greeley (mild spoiler) With reference to Andrew Greeley writing something that is oddly like SF -- Greeley has had a number of short stories in Amazing, all mainstream (oxymoron alert) fantasy. The one I read was pretty good, and dealt with a sort of theological speculation: who ARE these angels anyway. As a side issue, what is it like to make love with an angel? Maybe he always wanted to write fantasy but avoided it until he had mainstream sales to stay out of the ghetto? Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 86 06:24:00 GMT From: uok!ricmtodd@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Lazarus Long ami@ihnp1.UUCP writes: >Is Lazarus Long in any book other than Methusaleh's Children and >Time Enough for Love? If he is in a short story, could someone >tell me in what book it's in. Please post the answer, don't mail >it. He's also in _The Number Of The Beast_ and _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_. I don't know of any short stories he's in. Richard Todd USSnail:820 Annie Court,Norman OK 73069 UUCP: {allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!okstate!uokvax!uok!ricmtodd ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 86 15:27:55 GMT From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: _Footfall_, Heinlein, and Tolkien QUINT@RED.RUTGERS.EDU writes: >>Lazarus Long cried like a baby the night his mother died >>("Methuselah's Children") but told her later (eariler) that the >>families had no record of her death (_Time Enough for Love_). >>Heinlein must have noticed this error, because he fixed it in >>_Number of the Beast_. > >I just recently reread the story, and as far as I can remember the >only time LL cried was when Mary Sperling "died". She was a good >friend, but not his mother. That _is_ the only time he cries during _Methuselah's Children_, but the way Heinlein describes it draws a parallel to Lazarus' memory of his mother's death, long years ago. One of RAH's more moving passages. Incidentally, I just reread _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_, and noticed two things that intrigued me: 1. Shipstones. Why didn't anyone mention their presence before, when you were trying to convince me and others that RAH was drawing the _Friday_ universe and the _Rolling Stones_ universe together in this book? I'm still not sure it's conclusive, but this is a definite indication. 2. Nobody mentioned this earlier, either: Campbell's universe (time line three, code "Neil Armstrong") is definitely identified in various passages with that of Jubal Harshaw. That is, however, impossible--look up the description of the first landing on the moon in _Stranger in a Strange Land_. I hope the actions RAH seems to be taking to resolve the multiverse problem conclude soon; he's gotten to the point where he's confusing himself! pH ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 27 Jun 1986 12:50:59-PDT From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (MARY J. MAROTTA MRO1-2/L12 From: 467-4277) Subject: Who likes Frank Herbert? I would like to recommend Herbert's "The White Plague" to those of you who are dissatisfied with other works of his. I read several of the Dune books, and concur that the first is his best in the series. I'm not familiar with his other novels, but I was favorably impressed with TWP. Since this novel was mentioned recently in the discussion about "how to kill off the people without destroying the environment," I won't elaborate on the plot. But the situation is not commonly explored in the science fiction I have read, and so I was interested in Herbert's ideas. I was strongly affected by the fact that this plague killed only women, and I was involved with the women in the story, and their plight as the last chance for humanity. My main problem with the novel was the original motivation of the scientist creating the plague, since his act of revenge was so devastating. I cannot believe that a man who loved his family so much could subject millions of innocent men (and women) to the hardship and suffering that the plague caused. The most interesting part of the novel was, of course, the search to determine the cause of the plague and its antidote. Reminded me of "Andromeda Strain." ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 86 18:06:49 GMT From: kcl-cs!ramsay@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC440) Subject: Herbert, Frank (Gosh, don't you read The Dosadi Experiment?) Being extremely interested in the use and abuse of power, I found this book an absolute joy. The power struggles, McKie's apotheosis(?), all this and more. I rate it with the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant as my most favourite book. (As you can tell, I'm about to read it again... Skweeeeeek!) On the other hand, I found Dune to be interminably (sp?) boring dross, losing my interest even before the third book. Oh, all right, incredibly well written boring dross, but still so endless. I know I've just given you apoplexy, but don't shout at me, I'm only the piano player. Why does everyone love Dune so much (...evocation of a whole alien culture...) why do my reference articles (forgot who posted the note saying the godmakers and Dune were the only good ones.) slag off everything else? (I'll let them off about Destination Void :-)) All this and more in your next e-mail missive... R. Ramsay ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 86 20:32:27 pdt From: bradley thompson Subject: Herbert character Is there any justification for thinking that BuSab in Herbert's *Whipping*Star* and *Dosida*Experiment* is some decendent of BuPsych from *Under*Pressure* ? merci Brad Thompson ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 86 17:17:51 GMT From: chabot@3d.dec.com (let imagination rise to power) Subject: Re: Repopulating the Earth It might not be a lot of fun. Try _We_Who_Are_About_To_..._ by Russ for a discussion about repopulating from a small base. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 86 20:32:27 pdt From: bradley thompson Subject: orion project, references to in sf literature In the 60's the US had a nuclear propulsion project called Orion. I am aware of two (2) references to this in books: 1- The shuttle taking H. Floyd up to the space station in 2001 was called the Orion. 2- The book *Orion*Shall*Rise* by P. Anderson had a similar orion project in a post nuclear war type story line. Anybody out there aware of any other references to Orion in sf literature? merci brad thompson ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 86 04:13:00 GMT From: xenixsp!doug@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: SPACE 1999 on tape! Recently I joined a new tape rental place, and for joining at this particular rental agency you get a free one night rental. Well as usual I went looking for a SF tape that I hadn't seen before. :-) And stumbled across a copy of what appeared to be an episode of SPACE 1999 this tape was intitled however, _SYLVIA_DANNINGS_ADVENTURE_MOVIES_SPACE:_1999 _THROUGH_THE_BLACK_SUN. needless to say it looked interesting enough. to warrant not seeing some other SF tape for the N+1'th time. To make a long story short it was two episodes of the old SPACE 1999 series, that someone had cleverly edited together, (I don't recall the names of the individual episodes but I remember them). The tape was well done considering the ages and low budget that SPACE 1999 had to work under. Except for at the very beginning and very ending when the "narrator" Sylvia Dannings, a very swank and underdressed female who's lines made her sound like she had the intelligence of a housefly, spent the better part of 5 minutes explaining how this movie was "far out" and that the black sun "really sucked" while she toted a silver colored plastic-gun around on a stage. This dragged on and on until out of desperation I hit the fast forward on the VCR. Excepting for the "narrative" the two episodes that were chosen were two of the better ones that I remember from the first season of SPACE 1999. This is a good sign that there might be more of the SPACE 1999 series showing up in the stores soon. Hopefully without the narration. USnail: 400 Atrium One Tandy Center Fort Worth, Tx, 76102. MAbell: (817)-390-3011 x4110 {ihnp4!sys1|hub|soma|rscus1|trsvax!techsup}!xenixsp!doug ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 86 23:27:37 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Net Power > Just my two cents for this discussion; nobody has mentioned the > 'electronic forum' for public discourse, through which Ender's > siblings became public figures. Sound familiar, anybody? Does > Card know the extent of current discussion coursing through the > internet, or was he just guessing? Granted, we don't have QUITE > the readership of leading statesmen (do we?) as he used in the > novel...anybody out here feel like a pioneer? Well, cast your squinties on this... Subject: Shuttle messages taken to Senator Garn's office Date: Tue, 4-Mar-86 23:41:27 EST This afternoon, I had my first meeting with Mr. Jeff Bingham, Senator Garn's Administrative Assistant. I took with me all of the messages that I have collected (to date) from net.space and net.columbia, as well as the messages that were sent to me directly via mail. In addition, I brought the messages that have been collected on my two FIDONET nodes, and the messages that have been sent by other FIDO SYSOPS and FIDO users. A little over 1,400 messages in all. Mr. Bingham was impressed (perhaps overwelmed is better word) with both the quantity and the quality of the material contained in these messages. The discussions followed the types of questions that have been asked in Congress, as to the future and direction of the space program. He was fascinated as to the mechanisms used to gather these messages. What is going to be done with the material? Senator Garn's staff is going to be reviewing the messages. Some of them are going to be included in the Congressional Record, others will be read in committee meetings. Some may be provided in press releases, others will be sent to the survivers of the shuttle disaster and to the participants in the space program (both astronauts and engineers). In addition, Senator Garn is going to have a response to all you us on both networks (FIDONET and USENET) who have been contributing messages. I will be meeting with Mr. Bingham and Senator Garn in 3 to 4 weeks to further discuss how to best use these messages. I will also be taking any further traffic that I receive, either via mail or culled from the newsgroups. For once, we have a chance to influence the course of events outside of our peer group. Let's keep the discussions going, regarding the space program and it's future. Keep the messages coming as well. The Dream IS still alive, and with our help, it will stay alive! Kurt Reisler ..!seismo!hadron!klr Evelyn C. Leeper ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 86 23:32:57 GMT From: jhardest @ Wheeler-EMH Subject: SPACE: A DIMINISHING FRONTIER **PEOPLE OF THE NET LAND** Are you aware that this country, with all its technological nad scientific advances in the world, is considering to give up exploring the last great frontiers - space. Ever since the tragic shuttle disaster of January 28 1986, where we lost seven brave explorers - astronauts - , this country is starting to believe that we , mankind, don't belong in space. Granted, there are individuals who believe that we should mean it is just very dangerous out there... send our machines... If this country decides to take this position on space and space exploration, then the lives of the seven astronaut have been wasted futilely and the training and expenses, both personal and financial have been for naught. Forty years of space research and exploration snuffed out with the lives of the seven We should tell our elected officials that we want to continue to explore space with men and machines. The human spirit is a curious one. If the first men had been as timid as the people want us to be, we would still be living in caves, eating cold veldebeast. You are probally wondering why this subject is brought up in this net bulletin board. We, each and every one of us, who read this bulletin board have a secret desire to be the Gandalf, Retief, Manual de La Paz, Lord Kalvan, Alois Hammer, Donal from our genre because the characters project our spirit of curiosity and adventure. Prior to the advent of our genre, tale-spinners would talk of Gilgamesh, Leif Erikson, Eric the Red, Columbus, Romulus and Remus, Hercules, Jason, Arthur, Billy the Kid, Wyatt Earp, Hiawatha, Alexander, Julius Caeser, Cleopatra, Genghis Kahn, Kublai Khan, Marco Polo, and other characters of folklore and history too many to mention. People mention for either knowledge, power, or adventure... or maybe everything. We are the generation that will determine the future tale-spinners now. Our collective curiousity represents to me the thirst for adventure, power, knowledge. Even though we can not do what Manny, Milo, Alois, Cletus, Corwin, Frodo, etc can do , although they are fictional, they represent our dream of (pardon the phrase ) `vision quest` Right now, this country is at the cross roads of space exploration for the United States. The faction that wants us to be cautious and timid and not take chances are going to hurt us in the long run, but they are the dreamers that should try. Well enough rattling my saber, let's hear some comment from the rest of you people..... besides... I think I have heard enough of nitpicking JRRTolkien as to who|etc... For those who want to make a personal comment: jhardest@ wheeler-emh jhardest @ bbncct are my mail addresses. They both end up in the same mailbox eventually. I wear flame retardant clothes anyway. John Hardesty - A man with his eyes on tomorrow BBN Pacific ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Jul 86 0927-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #174 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 1 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 174 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Herbert & Lem & Macfarlane & Spinrad & Williams & Title Request & Recycling the Dead, Films - Films of Favorite Books & Aliens, Television - Space: 1999, Miscellaneous - Identifying with Characters & Destroying Mankind (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Jun 86 22:33:57 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Piers Anthony One gains a somewhat more sympathetic view of Anthony from the notes to _With_a_Tangled_Skein_, the third volume in the _Incarnations_of _Immortality_ series. It is clear from reading that that he did have a very hard life, and this makes his arrogance, while still wrong, understandable and forgivable (at least for me). I also think that a uniformly negative view of Anthony's writing is unjustified. He has a tendency to beat stories into the ground with sequel after mind-deadening sequel; but the original stories are often quite good. In paricular, _On_a_Pale_Horse_, the first of the _Incarnations_of _Immortality_, is excellent. (_With_a_Tangled_Skein_ is poor to mediocre, however; the afterword is interesting for those interested in Anthony the auther, but I can't recommend the book.) Many of the stories in _Anthonology_ are fairly good; they suffer by comparison to and in the context of Anthony's stated opinions of them. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 86 01:48:00 GMT From: mic!d25001@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Herbert, Frank "Under Pressure" was originally serialized in JWC's "Astounding Science Fiction"; so it's a good bet that it was "Campbell vetted". Carrington Dixon UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!mic!d25001 ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 86 08:59:15 GMT From: c3pe!glenn@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Comments and Questions about Stanislaw Lem I too am a fan of Stanislaw Lem. I read _The_Star_Diaries_ years ago and it took me forever to find more of his work. I've still not read much, but in what I have read he's not let me down yet! Translator's nightmare? I've been wondering: HOW DID THE TRANSLATOR (Michael Kandel in this case) MAKE ALL THOSE *PUNS* WORK IN _The_ _Futurological_Congress_?? I don't think puns generaly translate very well. Anyone with more language experience out there care to comment? I was impressed. I saved a copy of your article, partly so I can extract the titles you mentioned. Still looking for more Lem, D. Glenn Arthur Jr. ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 28 Jun 1986 02:34:43-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: W. Macfarlane > From: ivanlan%ccvaxa@gswd-vms.ARPA (Ivan Van Laningham) > Many, many years ago (well, 10 anyway) I had an SF pseudonym > handbook. I forget all the details, but I do recall W. Macfarlane > being listed as a pseudonym. I guess jayembee could come up with > the particulars of the handbook, and possibly check my (possibly > faulty) memory. There have been a few sf pseudonym references; you're probably referring to Barry McGhan's SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY PSEUDONYMS, first issued in 1976, with a few revisions since. But, anyways, no reference work that I know of lists Macfarlane as a pseudonym. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 28 Jun 1986 02:39:20-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Followup on 'Carcinoma Angels' From: Hoffman.es@Xerox.COM (Rodney Hoffman) > If you enjoyed Norman Spinrad's "Carcinoma Angels" as much as I > did, you will also enjoy what I view as his sort-of-sequel (in > theme, at least), "No Direction Home". > I don't know when or where it appeared, but I read it years ago in > one of Terry Carr's 'Best SF of the Year' collections. Well, it first appeared in NEW WORLDS QUARTERLY #2 (1971), and has been reprinted in a few anthologies, as well as Spinrad's collection of the same title. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 86 09:59:31 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: THE BREAKING OF NORTHWALL (*possible* spoiler) From: loral!dml (Dave Lewis) > This is but the first book in what either Paul O. Williams or > his publisher has termed the `Pelbar cycle'. So far there are > seven books: I've heard it from someone who spoke with Williams at a convention that THE SWORD OF FORBEARANCE is definitely the last one he plans to write (I suppose if he later comes up with an irresistable plotline, he'll do another one). I can see this, since in that book... Damn! I wouldn't consider the following a spoiler, but some might, so beware the next paragraph if you haven't read the books. ****** Possible spoiler ****** ... the seeds for the re-unification of the continent have been sown. The series has been moving towards this re-unification, as Jestak or others bring more and more peoples into the Heart River Federation as the series goes on. By the end of TSOF, there isn't really anything further to add. ****** Possible spoiler over ****** > All are very good despite the fact that Paul's characters tend > to speak in short, choppy sentences, which gets slightly > irritating after a while. That hasn't stopped me from buying each > of the seven as soon as it appeared on the bookstore shelf though. Agreed. I too found myself buying and reading them almost immediately, which doesn't happen all *that* often. Books usually go into the stack to be read at my convenience. My favorites in the Pelbar Cycle are the ones that result in a rather significant change in one or more of the Urstadge societies: THE BREAKING OF NORTHWALL (#1), THE DOME IN THE FOREST (#2), THE FALL OF THE SHELL (#4), and THE SWORD OF FORBEARANCE (#7). THE ENDS OF THE CIRCLE (#2) was my least favorite, as it seemed to be little more than a travelogue to use up ideas that Williams wrote down in his notebook and didn't get around to using in the first book. I'm looking forward to seeing what Williams does next, now that the Pelbar series is done with. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 86 02:43:00 GMT From: chris@ico Subject: Story Title Request I'm posting this for a friend. If you recognize the story please send me the title and I will pass it along. The story is about this guy who is trying to find the answer to immortality, but what happens is that he begins to slow down and the slowing process keeps increasing until he's virtually immobilized, except that he really isn't, it's just that it takes him *forever* to move. The story is, I think, the manuscript that he wrote about all this -- and it took him a looooong time to write it...he's still sitting at the typewriter, his finger poised over the last keystroke, and he'll be that way, to people moving at normal speed anyway, forever. Thanks In Advance Chris Kostanick hao!ico!chris decvax!vortex!ism780!chris ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 86 09:27:59 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Recycling the Dead From: mmintl!franka (Frank Adams) > James B. VanBokkelen writes: >> [...] the recycling of historic personalities. When Farmer first >> (?) did it in _Riverworld_ > > Certainly not first. R. A. Lafferty's _Past_Master_ antedates > that, if nothing else. Certainly not. PAST MASTER was first published in 1968. While TO YOUR SCATTERED BODIES GO and THE FABULOUS RIVERBOAT weren't published until 1971, they are both patched together from material published in WORLDS OF TOMORROW and IF from 1965-1967 (TFR also has material from later issues of IF). And though it wasn't actually published in its *original* form until a couple of years ago, Farmer came up with his Riverworld back in the 50's. But long before Lafferty *or* Farmer, there was at least John Kendrick Bangs' A HOUSE-BOAT ON THE STYX (1895) and THE PURSUIT OF THE HOUSE-BOAT (1897). And long before *that* there was, of course, Dante's DIVINE COMEDY. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 86 05:38:53 GMT From: ucdavis!ccrdave@caip.rutgers.edu (Lord Kahless) Subject: Re: Films of favourite sf books rael@ihlpa.UUCP writes: >What flicks would you like to see made from your favorite SF books? >(this could be interesting!) Dragonflight comes to mind. You'd need LucasFilm's best magic to do it right though. I always imagined James Earl Jones as the voice of Mnementh. Of course, I'd love to see The Final Reflection as well. Now, who would you get to star in that one? Maybe Martin Sheen??? Maybe Ben Kingsley. I'd sure want Ridley Scott directing it. Imagine Klin Zha Kinta, the game with live pieces, done well. Imagine the battles, in full glory. {dual,lll-crg,ucbvax}!ucdavis!samira!kahless ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 86 23:13:27 GMT From: wdl1!jrb@caip.rutgers.edu (John R Blaker) Subject: Re: Sequel to ALIEN - ALIENS rls@ihu1g.UUCP (r.l. schieve) writes: > I read a little movie go'ers article about S. Weaver (I know I'd > botch the first name spelling) making the sequel to "ALIEN", > titled "ALIENS". Ripley's story about the planet is not believed > and she returns for some evidence with some help and high tech > weapons. Anyone heard any more details. I doubt if a sequel can > top the first... It is not only being made, it's in the can and will be released in the next few weeks. Having re-watched the original last night on video tape, it looks as if "The Company" knows a lot more about the Alien(s) than they are letting on (as witness Ashe's orders to "ensure the organism is brought back, all other priorities suspended, crew expendable"). My understanding is that "The Company" makes her go back. You wouldn't get me within a parsec of the place again, shares or no shares. John R Blaker UUCP: ...!sun!wdl1!jrb (jrb@wdl1.uucp) ARPA: jrb@FORD-WDL1.ARPA and blaker@FORD-WDL2.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 86 19:45:05 GMT From: okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (The New Number Who) Subject: Wanted: Space:1999 I am interested in obtaining good quality tapes of the 2 seasons of Space:1999. I definitely do NOT want the "splice 2 episodes together to make an 80 minute movie out of 2 46 minute shows". Hopefully, someone out in Net-land has copies that they consider of good-enough quality to help me. If you have copies, please mail me so that we can discuss this in greater detail. Thank you. Jeff Okamoto okamoto@ucbvax.berkeley.edu ..!ucbvax!okamoto Work Phone [8-5 PDT] (408) 447-6265 ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 86 17:42:44 GMT From: utastro!mccarthy@caip.rutgers.edu (Susan Elizabeth Hill) Subject: Re: FOOTFALL by Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle (mild spoiler) Duane (and others): I have noticed that a lot of people speak of "identifying with a character" or similar phrases. Why is that necessary to enjoy the work? Is it not possible to take pleasure from the author's command of the language, of the inventive and innovative uses of characterizations, of situations, of technology? Why is it considered necessary to "identify with" a particular character? I don't identify with any of Thomas Hardy's characters, with any of Charles Dickens's, or even with Orson Scott Card's and Harlan Ellison's, but I think in each case the author's use of the language (etc., etc.) is what makes the work so worth reading. And furthermore: I think your format for reviews is pretty good! Best wishes, Richard Bleiler P.S. And, when reading and enjoying, what about simply appreciating the well- told tale, the story that is well-plotted, internally consistent, etc? ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 86 21:50:44 GMT From: bacall!iketani@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: FOOTFALL (spoilers follow) Bill Davidson writes; > I only partially agree with you. If the object of the invasion is > to hold and use the planet, many weapons become useless. You don't > burn the house down to get the mice out. In all our modern > weapons, the only ... > I'm open to suggestion, but I don't see any selective way to > eliminate humans without wrecking things unless (a) you postulate > a biological weapon of a completely unknown type, or (b) introduce > some weapon with no basis in current practice or theory, such as > the "brain wave damper" which was used in a few *really awful* > stories... Well, actually, you do have a few options on removing the local population from space. How about building several hundred (or thousand) large, orbiting, solar-powered masers that generate a continuous microwave beam down into the local ecosystem? (Assuming they have a fairly high level of automatic manufacturing capability.) It's a simple matter to use an organized pattern that insures total coverage of the surface (or even just the land surface for efficiency's sake). Assuming that they could control our access to space, they could just spend a couple of decades irradiating us until we all die of electromagnetic radiation related problems. (The terrestrial microwave oven!) Sure, some people could dig in and survive, but the majority would die. The survivors would be centralized, concentrated, and just right for neutron bomb attack. (or even zoo specimen gathering expeditions!) Or, how about using that ole zero gee manufacturing environment and using an asteroid to build a large sunshield for the earth? Say 50K miles in diameter, and then you put it in a powered solar orbit, such that the earth is completely in its shadow. A few years of massively diminished sunlight and they could just come down to an essentially sterile world. If you're worried about the amount of solar radiation being reflected back into space by all the snow, then you just make sure that one side of the sunshield is reflective and you can use it to alter the amount of total energy received! If the size of the shield bothers you, I'm sure that the same effect could be provided by several thousand smaller shields in various close orbits around the earth. Just reduce the amount of solar energy received and the problem is solved. In short, there are a lot of ways to eliminate man once you enter the realm of macro-engineering. Let's just hope that none of them ever happen. d. todd Iketani ARPANET: Iketani@usc-ecl UUCP: {{decvax,ucbvax}!sdcsvax,hplabs,allegra,trwrb} !sdcrdcf!uscvax!iketani ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 86 22:11:19 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Population Growth & Mass Human Extermination >mankind has wiped itself out, almost, several times in the past >5000 years, but we always came back. Not so. The human race has not been at all close to extinction since *very* early in our history. And never have we almost wiped *ourselves* out -- the dangers were predators, competition from other species, and natural disasters, back when the species was small and localized. The danger of wiping ourselves out (with nuclear or biological weapons) is a recent and unprecedented development. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Jul 86 0950-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #175 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 1 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 175 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (13 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Jun 86 02:01:59 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Illuvatar's meddling in Middle Earth From: winalski%psw.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Paul S. Winalski) >>It can't be the Valar, for they have laid down their guardianship >>and meddle in the affairs of Middle Earth only through human >>agents like the Istari, by persuasion and not by force. > >The Valar never permanently laid down their Guardianship of Middle >Earth. When Ar-Pharazon sought to land on the shores of Aman, they >temporarily laid their Guardianship down, I always interpreted the statement that they "laid down their guardianship" as referring to the guardianship *of Numenor*, not of Middle Earth. Whether this was temporary or permanent is moot, since Numenor did not exist thereafter. I don't think the Valar ever exercized "guardianship" over Middle Earth at all, as they did over Numenor. This does not mean that they did not meddle there; I see no evidence for this latter view, although certainly they were discrete about it. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 86 20:34:00 GMT From: tekecs!leonard@caip.rutgers.edu (Leonard Botleman) Subject: Re: And again, rings (Greedy Dwarves) allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >This was caused MUCH earlier: Dwarves were commissioned to set the >Silmaril which Thingol had received from Beren in the necklace >Nauglamir. But the Dwarves, aroused by the beauty of the Silmaril, >stole Nauglamir, which ultimately led to the destruction of >Doriath. This caused the estrangement of Dwarves and Elves. Indeed, the estrangement of Dwarves and Elves began at the creation of the Dwarves. Illuvitar told Aule, after giving the Dwarves Aule created wills of their own, that since Aule hid his creation from Illuvitar, the children of Illuvitar and the Dwarves would always be in conflict (no where near an exact quote, but pretty close). Leonard Bottleman tektronix!tekecs!leonard ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 86 20:52:10 GMT From: cpf@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Courtenay Footman) Subject: Who wrote the Lord of the Rings? My question about the Lord of the Rings is: "Who wrote it?" What sort of question is THAT, you ask? Well, I know that JRRT translated LOTR, but who wrote which parts? We are given that the original authors were Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam, but who wrote what? This question is made more difficult because JRRT took more than the usual translator's liberties -- e.g., not only did he translate, but he also translated the names, and at least once he introduced a pun that could not have existed in the original. Nevertheless, some definite statements of who wrote what can be made. Bilbo certainly wrote some of book one, and equally certainly wrote nothing later. Sam only wrote a few pages at the end. Can we do any better than this? Since there was so much input by the translator, I doubt that modern textual analysis (word usage rates, etc.) would be of any use. However, style and tone seem to me to offer significant clues. There is a strong difference in tone and pace between the first few chapters of book one and the rest of the LOTR. Indeed, people have told me that they were unable to "get into" the book because it starts so slowly. I feel that this difference in pacing is indicative of who wrote which parts. I feel certain that the LOTR is Frodo's by the time of the Barrow Wights; I am uncertain of where he began. My own guess is that Bilbo wrote up to the arrival at Crickhollow, and that Frodo wrote about everything after the departure from Bombadil's, but I am unsure about the intervening period. (I will give reasons in a later posting, if no one posts superior ones.) I don't suppose that anyone found some handwritten, red bound books among Tolkien's papers after his death; barring that, is the answer to the question known from any other source? Even if it is not known, what opinions are there on the subject? Courtenay Footman Lab. of Nuclear Studies Cornell University ARPA: cpf@lnsvax.tn.cornell.edu Usenet: {decvax,ihnp4,vax135}!cornell!lnsvax!cpf Bitnet: cpf%lnsvax.tn.cornell.edu@WISCVM.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 86 20:54:59 GMT From: sliu@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Sliu) Subject: Re: Illuvatar's meddling in Middle Earth Perhaps both Illuvatar and Ulmo meddled in the affairs of Middle-Earth. What I mean is that maybe Illuvatar was doing it through Ulmo. After all, isn't Ulmo Illuvatar's creation? This is pure speculation. Who can say for sure? Steve Liu ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 86 21:49:54 GMT From: sliu@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Sliu) Subject: Re: The One Ring I think Ancalagon the Black was destroyed by Earendil, right before the destruction of Beleriand by the war between the hosts of the Valar and Morgoth. Ancalagon, I don't think, was around by the time the Rings were made. He could not have devoured the Dwarf Ring. Steve Liu ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 86 12:48:32 GMT From: crane@rivest.dec.com (Olorin I was in the West that is From: forgotten...) Subject: ...and yet more Rings... > Other examples of Valar present in Middle Earth include Tom > Bombadil (a Valar who has gone to ground). This quote brings up an interesting question. Who was Bombadil? He was called "the Eldest," having "walked Middle-Earth for ages before the Elves awoke." If he were literally the "Eldest," then his true name is Illuvatar. This seems quite unlikely, especially in light of the discussion in the Council of Elrond, in which is was said of Sauron's power, "...but sooner or later the Lord of the Rings would learn of It's hiding-place, and he would bend all of his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not..." Maybe Bombadil was simply the "Eldest in Middle-Earth," as opposed to "The Eldest." So, he could be a Vala. Again, I think this unlikely, on the grounds that all of the Valar (and Valier) were named and numbered in the Silmarillion. I think that Bombadil was one of the Maiar, the vast majority of whom were unnamed; they were referred to as "helpers of the Valar" in the Silmarillion. This theory meshes well with Bombadil's attributes. Ron ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 86 15:27:55 GMT From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: _Footfall_, Heinlein, and Tolkien hoffman@hdsvx1.UUCP (Richard Hoffman) writes: >[re: the verse of the Rings] >Since the book doesn't seem to mention an `extra' ring for Sauron, >I think it's easier to assume that Tolkien erred slightly in his >arrangement of the verses, rather than assume that he erred largely >in his ambiguous treatment of two `one' rings. I don't think he "erred" at all; the grouping of lines he used is correct for the rhyme scheme. The treatment of the One also seems quite clear to me. Be careful when trying to second-guess authors, people, especially when they are as competent and careful as JRRT was. Please. pH ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 86 08:42 CDT From: Brett Slocum Subject: Valar vs. Maia caip.rutgers.edu (Walt Pesch) writes : > If you refer to the Silmarilon, you will find out that Gandalf is > a Valar, If you read the Silmarillion, it states that Gandalf and the other Wizards are Maia, which are lesser beings than Valar. > Other examples of Valar present in Middle Earth include Tom > Bombadil (a Valar who has gone to ground) It also states that Tom Bombadil is a power unto himself, completely separate from Valar and Maia. > Perhaps an interesting question to the net would be whether Sauron > is considered as to have originally been a Valar, or whether his > start was as something much more powerful. (My view is that he is > originally a Valar, but due to the tremendous amount of worship > has attained Godhood.) Sauron was a Maia too. Melkor/Morgoth was a Valar, and Sauron was his "disciple". Melkor was much more powerful than Sauron, and it took the entire combined efforts of the Elves, Dwarves, and Men on a scale that makes the events in LotR look like a picnic. To clarify, Manwe, Ulmo, Elbereth, and Melkor/Morgoth are Valar; Sauron, Gandalf, and the other Wizards, (and I think Luthien) are Maia. Tom Bombadil is something else, probably not created by Illuvatar. > I suppose it's time to reread the Silmarilon again... I agree. Me too. Brett Slocum (Slocum at HI-MULTICS) ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 86 00:36:14 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Men and Sauron milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes: >Then, as you say, he took sixteen of them (the sixteen newest and >most potent, I assume), perverted them (which was relatively easy >because he'd had a hand in their making), and gave them out to the >seven houses of the Dwarves, and to Men. The Silmarillion says he >gave nine to Men because they proved, in this as in other matters, >the readiest to his will (I'm not at all sure I like the sound of >that). You have to understand Middle-earth history. Specifically: There were Three Kindreds: Elves, created by the Ainur (Valar); Dwarves, created by Aule... and Men, creted by Iluvatar. The times of the advent of the first two were known by the Valar; the Elves were shown the wonder of Valinor very soon after they awoke, and for a time almost *all* the Elves lived in Valinor. On the other hand, the time of the advent of Men was a secret known only to Iluvatar. And the power of the Valar was lesser in the large portion of Middle-Earth, while that of Melkor was stronger. So, when Men awoke, the Valar learned of it only after Melkor had planted the seeds of trouble in them. (For example: when the Elves awoke, the night was beautiful with starlight and nature in all its glory. Man awoke to night also... night made fearful by Melkor and his servants. Men were also convinced by Melkor's emissaries that the Valar were in fact horribly evil beings. Makes you wish Melkor had been banished long before Men had arisen. Brandon ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 86 19:30:52 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: And again, rings allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >>While the Seven do not achieve all that Sauron had hoped for them, >>I would not call them total failures. They are probably the reason >>for the almost total estrangement of Dwarves from the other races, >>and thier reputation for greed. > >This was caused MUCH earlier: Dwarves were commissioned to set the >Silmaril which Thingol had received from Beren in the necklace >Nauglamir. But the Dwarves, aroused by the beauty of the Silmaril, >stole Nauglamir, which ultimately led to the destruction of >Doriath. This caused the estrangement of Dwarves and Elves. This certainly started the estrangement, but it was only a start. The Elves of Hollin and the Dwarves of Moria had overcome this and become close allies. And then there is the estrangement of Dwarves from Men and Hobbits. I believe, though I cannot prove it, that if it were not for the Seven these old grievences would have been gradually forgotten and many of the differences patched up. >>Also, I would say that he was *completely* successful in >>"recalling" the Seven. Remember, dragons were, in general, >>controlled by Sauron, so if dragons destroyed any of the Seven it >>was at Sauron's behest. > >To which I respond with the argument used against my theory that >the Balrog of Moria was in communication with Sauron. Dragons were >controlled by Melkor, before he was sent out of the world. Sauron >didn't pick up the load, just as he didn't pick up the load of >controlling the Balrog. It may well be that during his period of disembodiment after the fall of Numenor the Dragons became independent, and he may not have fully re-established his dominion over them during the Watchful Peace due to his need of secrecy, *but* that dominion was real. This is made clear in the recently published accounts by Gandalf of *why* he helped the Dwarves against Smaug. His comments make it *very* clear that he anticipated Sauron using Smaug to totally devastate the North. His final comment is something to the effect that the companions might have returned from victory in the south to devastation and ruin in the north, and that there might have been no Queen in Gondor! This clearly indicates that Sauron could in fact control the Dragons. Sauron didn't gain dominion over the last remaining Balrog because they were essentially *equal*, both being Maiar. Dragons, however, were more like the Trolls and Orcs, that is they were real biological beings *bred* by Morgoth, and thus subject to Sauron. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 86 22:30:51 GMT From: wjvax!brett@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #90 wbp@cuuxb.UUCP (Walt Pesch) writes: >If you refer to the Silmarilon, you will find out that Gandalf is a >Valar, who is basically an agent of the Creator roughly equivalent >to a Demi-god or an Angel ... > >Perhaps an interesting question to the net would be whether Sauron >is considered as to have originally been a Valar, or whether his >start was as something much more powerful. (My view is that he is >originally a Valar, but due to the tremendous amount of worship has >attained Godhood.) In fact, neither Gandalf nor Sauron were Vala. They were Maia, a lesser order. The set of the Valar is known and specified in the Silmarillion. All others were Maia, including, presumably, Tom Bombadil. Sauron was Melkor's (a Vala himself) lieutenant. Brett Galloway {pesnta,twg,ios,qubix,turtlevax,tymix,vecpyr,certes,isi} !wjvax!brett ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 86 12:32:29 GMT From: louis!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Woods) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #90 wbp@cuuxb.UUCP (Walt Pesch) writes: >I suppose it's time to reread the Silmarilon agian... I think you had better. This discussion has been done to death in the last few months and the following FACTS have been established: 1. Gandalf is a Maiar 2. Sauron is a Maiar 3. Maia are of less power than the Valar (basically their helpers) 4. Other Maia include the rest of the wizards and the balrog. 5. Tom Bombadil is not Valar, Maia or any other classified group. Tolkein added him as an unknown, something from another mythology. Speculation about his true nature is therefore useless (see "the Tolkien Letters"). As to the "interesting" question. We know Sauron is a Maia, that he was corrupted by Melkor, that he was a powerful Maia, that his power (like Melkor's) diminished as time passed. He most certainly did NOT attain Godhood! Mike Woods. UK JANET: mike@uk.ac.rl.vd UUCP: ..!mcvax!ukc!rlvd!mike P.S Sorry that the tone of this article is sharp but I get fed up with people posting misinformation to the net weeks and months after the correct answer has been sorted out. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 86 19:22:21 GMT From: ulowell!lkeber@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Valar vs. Maia Slocum.CSCDA@HI-MULTICS.ARPA writes: >To clarify, Manwe, Ulmo, Elbereth, and Melkor/Morgoth are Valar; >Sauron, Gandalf, and the other Wizards, (and I think Luthien) are >Maia. Tom Bombadil is something else, probably not created by >Illuvatar. Luthien was the daughter of Thingol, a King of the Elves, and Melian, who was a Maia. Larry ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Jul 86 0848-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #176 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 2 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 176 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson & Farmer & Heinlein & Lem & Milne & Offutt & History in Books & Book Request, Films - Films from Books & Bladerunner & Labyrinth (2 msgs), Television - Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Depopulating Earth & The Orion Project ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Jun 86 00:49:47 GMT From: chinet!megabyte@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark E. Sunderlin) Subject: Poul Anderson's Time Patrol Stories I have two books which are collections of Poul Anderson's Time Patrol stories. They are: "The Guardians of Time" TOR books 1982 "Time Patrolman" TOR 1983 Does anyone know of any other collections of his Time Patol stories? Mark E. Sunderlin Mail: IRS 1111 Constitution Ave. NW Washington, DC 20224 UUCP: seismo!dolqci!irs3!scsnet!sunder ihnp4!chinet!megabyte Phone:(202) 634-2529 ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 86 12:40:52 GMT From: glasgow.glasgow!singh@caip.rutgers.edu (Satnam Singh) Subject: ===> Guide to Buying Humorous SF <=== Here is an easy guide to buying some humorous SF: (i) Get hold of six dollars: beg, steal, borrow- it does not matter. (ii) Lauch yourself at the nearest deviant SF shop (or WH Smiths/John Menzies type shops if you live in an uncultured area). (iii) Hack your way through the masses around the Jeffery Archer and Mills and Boon books and head for the F section of the Science Fiction books. (iv) Start looking for stems that have 'Alan Dean Foster' written on them. (v) Reap out a book called 'Spellsinger'. (vi) Buy it. (vii) Read it. After reading book one you'll be drooling for the other four. If you don't think these books are humorous then please make an appointment with your shrink. Satnam Singh Glasgow University ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 86 00:48:18 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Lazarus Long & Company nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser) writes: >In TEFL, just before going back in time, LL is convinced to (to put >it in polite language) father children to be carried by his >"sisters", Lapus Lazuli and Lorelei Lee. In TNOTB, alot of stuff >that happened after TEFL is explained by the characters, but no >mention is ever made of the children they were going to have. Does >anybody know what happened here? Reread NOTB. Laz-Lor state that they've taken antigeria a few times; they were just come of age in TEFL. So they had their kids and they were already adult. (What confuses me is that they'd regenerated 3 or 4 times but were only 45. Did they like being kids THAT much? On the other hand, that's a VERY dumb question...) >Also, on the back cover of the edition of TEFL I read, one of the >blurbs about LL said "...A man so in love with time that he became >his own ancestor..." I haven't been able to figure out what in the >story this referred to. Any ideas about this? Already answered; there has yet to be a cover blurb that approaches the truth. Critics and cover-blurb writers share an inability to read. Brandon ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 86 13:57:00 GMT From: polaris!herbie@caip.rutgers.edu (Herb Chong) Subject: Re: Comments and Questions about Stanislaw Lem gts@axiom.UUCP (Guy Schafer) writes: >I've also found that much of his work has the peculiar effect of >leaving almost no memory trace in my mind. Is it because of the >language? I certainly enjoy his work. I've never noticed this >before with any other author--not one that I've enjoyed this much, >anyway. Any psychology students want to give an opinion? Have you read Solaris? It's my favorite Lem book. I was introduced to Lem by a friend who read his books in Polish (i.e. imported from Poland). I, of course, waited until the English translations became available :-). Herb Chong, IBM Research... VNET,BITNET,NETNORTH,EARN: HERBIE AT YKTVMH UUCP: {allegra|cbosgd|cmcl2|decvax|ihnp4|seismo} !philabs!polaris!herbie CSNET: herbie%ibm.com@csnet-relay ARPA: herbie@ibm.com, herbie%yktvmh.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 86 17:50:56 GMT From: utastro!mccarthy@caip.rutgers.edu (Susan Elizabeth Hill) Subject: Re: Wells..a great or not? Actually, Mark, so far as harbingers of ideas go, Robert Duncan Milne was probably the greatest idea man in the history of s-f. A great writer he was not, though. Richard Bleiler. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 86 16:22:28 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: _Analog_ Questions From: bolotin@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU Russel Dalenberg >The story "Rails Across the Galaxy" by Andrew Offutt & Richard Lyon >was serialized in _Analog_ from Aug. to Mid-Sept. 1982. as far as >I know, "Rails..." was never issued in book form. I put off >reading it for a long time because I expected a book version to >come out. If no such publication is intended, I'll dig out my >magazines. Whatchabinwaitinfor???? I haven't ever seen it in the bookstore either, which is why I periodically dig it out to reread. I don't know why I didn't think of this one for the "funny SF". Even more importantly, it is a *very* good read. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 86 01:49:00 GMT From: mic!d25001@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Orphaned Response From: jbvb@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (James B. VanBokkelen) >I was recently reading one of the "heros in hell" stories, and felt >a considerable flash of annoyance over the recycling of historic >personalities. First, it only rarely conveys any particularly >useful historical information; I would agree that the author should strive to get his history 'right' (just as he should try to get his science right), but do not see that he is under any requirement to convey "particularly useful historical information." THAT is the purpose of non-fiction, biography and history, not of fiction. >Second, I feel it encourages a sort of lazy plagiarism among >authors. "Hmmm, let's see, I need a swashbuckling adventurer here, >where's the _Biographical Dictionary_..." I *don't* want the >author depending on my having heard of Julius Caesar so that he can >assume I'll extrapolate what I know into a complete character. > >Third, I feel that it can be somewhat insulting to the memory of >the historical personage so plagiarized - let their own works, and >those of their contemporaries illustrate their nature, not the SF >author's frequently unimaginative projection of their responses to >contrived situations. I think that arguments two and three would apply equally to the serious historical novel -- or any serious work of fiction set in the author's historical past, eg. _War_and_Peace_, _A_Tale_Of_Two_Cities -- the list is nearly endless. Such things can be done well and they can be done poorly and nearly every shade in between. Let us not tar all (possible) such stories with the same brush. To do this sort of story well is a difficult task. I think Farmer very nearly brings it off. I have not read the "Heroes" books yet; so, I cannot speak for them. Carrington Dixon UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!mic!d25001 ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 86 20:11:48 GMT From: li@uw-vlsi.ARPA (Phyllis Li) Subject: Book query: _Green Eyes_ (?) There was a Berkely Fiction book that had, as a premise, the resurrection people. The live dead had glowing green eyes, which is why I thought that that was the title; but I could be wrong. The resurrected people had tremendous powers of thought, creativity and psi abilities, I think. The story haunts me with the simple picture of three of guys that had been brought back escaping in a truck with a woman all accompanied by a sense of brooding power and despair. While the names escape my memory, I remember that the characters were powerfully drawn, and all the accompanying problems and terrors to a process for resurrection were convincingly presented. However, I have lost my copy of the book, and don't remember what the title or the author were. Help! Liralen Li USENET: ihnp4!akgua!sb6!fluke!uw-vlsi!li ARPA: li@uw-vlsi.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 86 23:13:56 GMT From: frog!wjr@caip.rutgers.edu (STella Calvert) Subject: Re: Films of favourite sf books rael@ihlpa.UUCP writes: >What flicks would you like to see made from your favorite SF books? My dream-film (or would it be a miniseries?) is _Dhalgren_, with Dustin Hoffman as the Kidd Michael Fox Denny Meryl Streep Lanya Jack Nicholson Tak Loufer Aretha Franklin Madame Brown Joan Rivers Mrs. Richards and Tina Turner Dragon Lady Of course, ILM would be involved, and I don't expect ever to see it. But if you have more casting ideas, send me email. Stella Calvert Guest on Account: {cybvax0!mit-eddie!decvax}!frog!wjr ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 86 10:12:19 EDT From: Andrea Rice Subject: bladerunner theme I believe bladerunner music you are looking for is on a Brian Eno albulm called Music for Movies (or something like that). Andrea ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 86 13:32:37 GMT From: dartvax!betsy@caip.rutgers.edu (Betsy Hanes Perry) Subject: Labyrinth (non-spoiler) There have been so many fantasy movies released in the last few years -- and most have left me unsatisfied. Many had wonderful special effects and sets, but truly dreadful plots and scriptwriting (Legend, The Sword and the Sorceror); some had atrocious acting (Beastmaster); two came close to being great movies, but had five-minute climaxes which the director had chosen to stretch to twenty (The Dark Crystal, Ladyhawke.) Candidly, I'd just about given up hope. Then I saw "Labyrinth". Labyrinth, finally, has it all. Competent special effects (with one exception which I'll get to), competent acting, remarkable sets, and a superior script. Furthermore, it's funny. What's unusual in a film targeted at children, it actually looks *suitable* for children. There aren't any horrific beasts, murdered parents, or cannibals. The plot is adventurous, but not terrifying. I went to the 3 P.M. matinee and was surrounded by children; none of them let out a peep during the entire movie. This means that, at least, they weren't bored -- and neither was I. David Bowie is very good as the Goblin King; a young actress whose name I didn't catch carries off the "noble maiden" character without cloying; and the Muppets are more lifelike than usual. (There's one scene where Henson slips; a group of ?marionette? monsters sing a song in the usual Muppetty voices, and they're all-too-visibly haloed against the background.) (I am aware that the monsters aren't technically "Muppets"; however, they are recognizably Hensonian (Ozian?) in movement and body-shape.) The movie is full of wonderful throwaway details -- for instance, if you look carefully at the doorstep of the Goblin King's castle, you'll notice the milk-bottles on the stoop! There is a magnificent masquerade ball which any romantic would give his/her eye teeth to attend. The various hazards along the heroine's path are often imaginative and always visually compelling. And at Quest's End she reaches a room straight out of an M.C. Escher print. Awesome. The plot? Well, if you've read Maurice Sendak's "Outside Over There", you've got the general idea. In the closing credits, Henson "acknowleges his indebtedness to the works of Maurice Sendak." I hope the acknowledgement was financial. I'd give "Labyrinth" a solid 4 out of 4; the Escher room alone is worth the price of admission, but it isn't all you have to look forward to. Elizabeth Hanes Perry UUCP: {decvax |ihnp4 | linus| cornell}!dartvax!betsy CSNET: betsy@dartmouth ARPA: betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relay ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 86 08:21 PDT From: Hank Shiffman Subject: Labyrinth Just caught this Henson Associates/Lucasfilm coproduction this past weekend. Comments: if you're over fourteen and can't make yourself think like someone under, then you may not have a good time. This is definitely kid stuff. Labyrinth is the movie that Henson should have made instead of Dark Crystal, with all of the humor and general whimsey that made the Muppets so unforgettable. David Bowie as the Goblin King is perfectly cast. And, with the exception of a fireside dance number that was clearly done with Chromakey or some equally sloppy-looking process, everything here is technically VERY well done. The fourteen- year-old in me would give it an eight on a ten scale. The adult (where did HE come from?) would call it a six and a half or seven. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 86 08:14 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Missing Star Trek episodes Cc: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott) I remember hearing that "Miri" (the episode with the children who don't age, but catch a horrible disease when they enter adolescence -- a disease which our fearless landing party get immediately.) wasn't shown in England -- bad influence on the children. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 86 11:20 CDT From: Brett Slocum Subject: Re: Depopulation In the discussion about having most of one sex wiped out by whatever means, I would like to add my $0.02 worth in. 1) The only problem with having 99% of the males wiped out is that the gene pool is damaged. Those 20 million+ guys would be kept busy servicing the 1 billion+ women (approximately half either post-menopausal, prepubescent, or otherwise infertile). The excess females would take over most roles in society, including protecting the centimated (as opposed to decimated) males. Society would change but probably not fall. Probably some of the pre-conception methods of increasing the likelihood of male children would be used, such as acid or alkaline diet (I forget which), timing of intercourse in relation to ovulation, etc. so as to build that population quickly. You wouldn't want all male children, but maybe 80-95% for awhile. In fact, if one round of births was 95% male, the long-term problems would be over. (Of course, having 1 billion male teen-agers in 15 years would be rather traumatic. :-) 2) The reverse is much more serious, as has been discussed before. But again, there would be enough people to fill the roles in society to prevent its collapse. The recovery would be much slower. Methods of male pregnancy would help a lot. (See Omni about 6 months ago.) Having each pregnancy by a different man would help keep the male gene pool intact. 3) If the ratio is much smaller than 1 percent, the problems are increasingly greater. In the worst case, say only a few hundred women survive, the inbreeding problems are nearly insurmountable. Perhaps genetic manipulation could be used to change genes around would help. Cells from the dead women could be cultured for their genetic content if it was done quickly. This only really works if civilization doesn't fall. Without genetic engineering, it won't work very well. 4) The "Adam and Eve" scenario is very doubtful in a primitive setting. Just too little genetic diversity. Brett (Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 86 01:07:03 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Orion propulsive devices >In the 60's the US had a nuclear propulsion project called Orion. I >am aware of two (2) references to this in books: anybody out there >aware of any other references to orion in sf literature? It's used in Niven & Pournelle's FOOTFALL. To say more would be a spoiler. Brandon ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Jul 86 0747-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #177 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 2 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 177 Today's Topics: Books - Ford & Heinlein & Lem (3 msgs) & Spider Robinson & Stapledon, Films - Films of Favorite Books (2 msgs) Miscellaneous - Japanese & Repopulation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Jun 86 22:08:29 GMT From: starfire!brust@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust) Subject: Re: John M. Ford > Being a John Ford fan, I thought I'd elaborate on the 4 books he's > published under his real name. > > Princes of Air and Darkness > Web of Angels > The Final Reflection (a Star Trek book) > The Dragon Waiting Wasn't that PRINCES OF THE AIR? I'm told that it will be re-issued soon, by the way. I agree with everything you say. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 86 01:01:47 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Heinlein vs. his story lines ph@wucec2.UUCP writes: >2. Nobody mentioned this earlier, either: Campbell's universe >(time line three, code "Neil Armstrong") is definitely identified >in various passages with that of Jubal Harshaw. That is, however, >impossible--look up the description of the first landing on the >moon in _Stranger in a Strange Land_. I hope the actions RAH seems >to be taking to resolve the multiverse problem conclude soon; he's >gotten to the point where he's confusing himself! ``A parallel space, with so small a difference as the lack of one unnecessary letter... seems to imply a father and daughter named `Iacob' and `Deiah Thoris.' '' --from THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST Heinlein probably doesn't care; any differences can be attributed to being slightly different timelines. (I am fast losing faith in him...) NOTB and THE QUANTUM CATS have decided me that alternate-universe stories of that sort are impossible to write. Short stories? Maybe. One of Niven's ``Stotz'' stories (from THE FLIGHT OF THE HORSE), and one of Spider's stories. I've given up on seeing anything reasonable in this area; it's just too Witness-forgotten complex to be written about by humans. Brandon ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ Date: 30 June 1986, 14:25:55 EDT From: RICHARD P KING Subject: Re: Comments and Questions about Stanislaw Lem I have been a fan of Lem since I first read his work, starting with _The Cyberiad_, which was 10 years ago. His plots can be weak, and his translators' prose are often poor, but he is always exploring significant concepts, and is, when he wishes, quite hilarious. My reading of his work will not be complete until his non-fiction work on cybernetics and on the philosophy of science are available in English translation, but I HAVE read the following: The Chain of Chance, explores the relationship between statistical correlation and causality, in the guise of a detective novel The Cyberiad, a collection of stories involving 2 master robot constructors Further Memoirs of a Space Traveler, more stories about Ijon Tichy The Futurological Congress, goings-on at a convention of futurologists His Master's Voice, a secret government project is formed to decipher what may be a transmission from intelligent alien life Imaginary Magnitude, a collection of introductions to non-existent books The Investigation, similar in concept to _The Chain of Chance_ The Invincible, a spaceship is sent to investigate the disappearance of an earlier ship sent to a previously unexplored planet Memoirs Found in a Bathtub, madness reigns in the Rocky Mountain Pentagon in a time after the destruction of society by a bacterium which breaks down paper More Tales of Pirx the Pilot, just so Mortal Engines, various stories about robots A Perfect Vacuum, book reviews of non-existent books Return from the Stars, a group of space travelers returns to earth to find it altered almost beyond comprehension Solaris, which is a planet mostly covered by an ocean, and which may be alive, even intelligent The Star Diaries, about the travels of Ijon Tichy Tales of Pirx the Pilot, the education of a rocket pilot This leaves _Microworlds_, about which I only know the title, to be read. I do not recommend _The Chain of Chance_. It was very similar to _The Investigation_, and even that one I don't really recommend. All of the story collections have their weak moments, but I recommend them all anyway. _The Futurological Congress_ is fabulous. And, although he makes them look too bizarre for words, the futurological techniques he discusses are genuine, even morphological analysis. _His Master's Voice_ was rather dull. The prose in _The Invincible_ are atrocious. But what do you expect? It was translated from Polish into German. Then the German translation was translated into English! However, the cybernetic concepts explored are quite intriguing. _Memoirs Found in a Bathtub_ itself is unpleasant reading, but the introduction is marvelous. _Return from the Stars_ moves fairly slowly; I can't quite recommend it. However, there is one scene which I still think back on 6 years later. _Solaris_ suffered a fate similar to that of _The Invincible_, but in this case it was Polish to French to English. It is rather heavy, with long discourses on the nature of consciousness and the limits of human understanding. I recommend it for the quality and depth of his philosophical exploration, but it is not an "easy read". Michael Kandel is the best of the translators. His work on _The Cyberiad_ is spectacular. He has the ability to take poems, rhymes, jokes, and alliterative word play written in Polish and transform them into English poems, etc., which scan, rhyme, are funny, and provide the necessary alliteration, respectively. The other translators were unimpressive. The worst were those who performed the 2 hop translations. I continue to harbour ill will toward those translators and their publishers. I think the variation in style that he shows can be explained by number of factors. First, there are the many translators. I think the works translated by Kandel read better, and more consistently, than the others. Then there is his educational background. He is extremely well read, trained as a physician, and a founder of the Polish cybernetic society. I would expect a man with so broad a range of interests to show a substantial range of variation in his work. In fact, I think his work is usually either some kind of romp or a fairly serious exploration of some issue in the philosophy of science. The romps usually feature a somewhat pugnacious gad-about like Trurl or Ijon Tichy. The more serious works usually center around a not quite brilliant man who plods through some baffling mystery, continually confused, upset, filled with self-doubt. Very Eastern European, I think. To wrap this up I will leave you with a little research problem. In which of his stories does Lem himself appear? By this I mean that in, for example, "The Mask" there appears a monk who happens to be both a physician and a cybernetician. This character I take to be Lem. Are there other such appearances? I think so, but I don't recall. Richard. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 86 17:43:40 GMT From: rtgvax!ramin@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Comments and Questions about Stanislaw Lem gts@axiom.UUCP (Guy Schafer) writes: > Are there any other Stanislaw Lem fans out there? > He's my second favorite author--my favorite in Science Fiction. Right in there... I would also recommend "WE" by Yevgeny Zamyatin. > No two of his books seem to have the same translator--maybe after > translating one of his books, the translators change careers. :-) All the ones that I have are translated from Polish by Michael Kandel (they're the paperback ones, I'm pretty sure by Harcourt Brace & Jovanovich). > Are there any other collections of his short stories kicking about > (besides _The Cyberiad_ (very funny), _The Star Diaries_ (the > language is amazing, pity the translators), the stories of Ijon > Tichy, the two about Pirx ("The Washing Machine Tragedy" is the > funniest short story of any genre I've ever read) and _Imaginary > Magnitude_ (not really stories, but still entertaining)? I know > some of his short stories have been translated for _The New > Yorker_; have they all been collected into these volumes? The list in the front of a recent reprint of "The Cyberiad" lists HBJ editions of: The Chain of Chance The Cyberiad: Fables for the Cybernetic Age His Master's Voice Memoirs of a Space Traveller: Further Reminiscences of Ijon Tichy More Tales of Pirx the Pilot A Perfect Vacuum The Star Diaries (I also saw the last copy of what looked like "The Immortal Engines" walk out of a bookstore once...(:-) ramin firoozye USps: Systems Control Inc. 1801 Page Mill Road Palo Alto, CA 94303 (415) 494-1165 x-1777 uucp: {shasta|lll-lcc|ihnp4}!ramin@rtgvax ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 86 20:08:47 GMT From: dartvax!tedi@caip.rutgers.edu (Edward M. Ives) Subject: Re: Stanislaw Lem I am another Lem fan-as far as I am concerned, most everything he writes is gold. "The Investigation" is a book no one has mentioned yet; it is not typical Lem. It is a really weird story of a Scotland Yard Inspector looking into some cases of what appears to be resurrections. WEIRD. One book by Lem I have never been able to find is SOLARIS (yes, the original novel of the Russian film of the same name-the Russian film director filmed the book). I just can't find it...Other than that, I recommend everything you can get your hands on by Lem. Except maybe "Return from the Stars" which is kind of boring, plotless, and devoid of Lem's awesome puns. Ted Ives tedi@dartvax.CSNET-RELAY ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 86 09:48:33 -0800 From: Dave Godwin Subject: re: How Spider Robinson ruined Callahan's Place for me ... Hi folks. I've been getting real disenchanted with Spider for some time now. Night of Power was unsatisfying, to say the least, and the last two stories from Callahan's Secret are crap. There was a time when Callahan's Place my favorite place to go, but lately it's been getting a bit like an OD on saccharine. A previous note to SF-LOVERS mentioned pop psychology making the stories hard to read. This is a definite problem for those of us with training in the field. I read The Mick of Time when it came out in Analog a while back, and kept saying to myself "Yah, right.". I really wish I knew what Spider thinks he is doing to his writing. His early stuff, like Telempath or The Time Traveler ( father What's His Name's story ), was really good. It's gone down hill pretty badly. I especially dislike the way in which Jake's guilty conscience was taken off the hook just like magic. Damn it, Jake was a realistic and interesting character up until Spider waved his magic wand. Does anybody else notice the similarities between Stardance and A Chorus Line ? I thought it was only me. Dave Godwin ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 86 14:20:46 GMT From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Wells..a great or not? Another 'early' innovative SF author who isn't mentioned frequently in this group is Olaf Stapledon. "Sirius" is an early story about a nonhuman animal being genetically engineered for human-level intelligence, and "Odd John" is an early story about a human with superhuman intelligence. "Last And First Men" and "Starmaker" also investigated new territory. Most of his stuff is available through Dover Books. Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 86 11:19 CDT From: Brett Slocum Subject: SF movies you'd like to see The Stainless Steel Rat books would be marvelous in film. How about Sting for Jim deGriz? (Harrison Ford would probably be better.) And I've always thought The Mote in God's Eye would make a wonderful movie. (I would hardly call it schlock though.) I think the present level of special effects makeup is sufficient to handle Moties. Right now, I'm in the middle of a book that would be great on the screen. West of Eden by Harry Harrison. I strongly recommend it for reading too. Since Star Trek IV is the last ST movie with Kirk, Spock, etc. in it, (at least as far as I've heard), how about The Final Reflection by John Ford? I'd like to see a generation ship story like Orphans of the Sky as a movie. Or, while on Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Space Viking by Piper, Gateway by Pohl, The Warlock Inspite of Himself by Stasheff, The Amber series perhaps? This would have to be multiple movies, but that's OK. Brett (Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 86 18:13:29 GMT From: jhunix!ins_amap@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark ) Subject: Re: Films of favourite sf books What I would really like to see (most preferably done in Japanese animation) is a movie version of Barry Hughart's (spelling for me is always an adventure, forgive me if that name is wrong) _Bridge_of_Birds. I don't think that it could be done as a live action movie though, and lord knows the Western Hemisphere isn't doing too well in the field of animation these days. Oh Walt, whatever happened to your dream? Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 86 11:18 CDT From: Brett Slocum Subject: Re: Cybernetic Samurai After having returned this month from my honeymoon to Japan and the Orient, I concur with Charlie Martin's comments concerning Chinese culture in Japan. Adaptation is a strong part of the Japanese character, but don't confuse this with imitation. A definite synthesis between foreign and Japanese ideas occurred and is still occurring. A note on language: Japanese is a language separate from Chinese. When writing in Japanese, one can directly translate syllable for syllable into Japanese script (katakana), but semantic ambiguity is very common. So, to remove ambiguity, one replaces the ambiguous word with the Chinese ideograph that represents exactly what one wants to convey. The other script (hiragana) is used for borrowed foreign words, like makidonorodo (MacDonald's), kohe (coffee), and gasorin (gasoline). Brett (Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 86 16:38:56 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Srewfly Solution rickheit@ulowell.UUCP (Erich W Rickheit) writes: >For example, does the gene pool get too restricted. A great deal of >inbreeding must needs take place in such a situation, and it looks >like any bad genes would get reinforced in the long run. [...] >Also, you can't count on evolution to eliminate bad traits. > > Exempli Gratii: Supposes I were Adam. This almost guarantees >that all future inhabitants would acquire bad eyesight and >clumsiness, and we would have a race of people wandering around >bumping into walls, rocks, trees, small animals, large >carnivores... You can't have it both ways. Either those with undesirable traits get killed, in which case natural selection and evolution work; or they don't, in which case survival is not in question. The restriction of the gene pool is a problem; but there is no absolute "can't survive below this level" point. Just gradually decreasing chance of species survival as the initial population gets smaller. I would guess that if you somehow reduced the human race to two members without massive damage to the rest of the biosphere, that if that got past the first generation, survival would be quite probable. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Jul 86 0802-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #178 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 3 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 178 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (14 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Jun 86 15:08:57 GMT From: sliu@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Sliu) Subject: Re: Men and Sauron Actually, the Valar did not create the Elves. Illuvatar did. Both elves and men were considered as Children of Illuvatar. They were both created as part of the manifestation of the Music of Eru. Steve Liu ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 86 15:24:27 GMT From: sliu@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Sliu) Subject: Re: Valar vs. Maia Is the offspring of an elf and a maia an elf or a maia? That is, what was Luthien? Also, what was Dior Eluchil, son of Beren and Luthien? And also, what were the children of Dior and Nimloth, daughter of Celeborn? Steve Liu ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 29 Jun 1986 12:13:13-PDT From: winalski%psw.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Paul S. Winalski) Subject: Sauron as Vala The question was asked whether Sauron was originally one of the Valar. There is little doubt left about this point. Sauron was originally one of the Maiar of Aule. Melkor seduced him into his service very early on in the history of Arda. Sauron became Melkor the Morgoth's lieutenant and most powerful servant. After Morgoth's defeat, Sauron set up on his own as the prime mover of evil in Middle Earth, similar to Morgoth but far less powerful. A minor quibble on terminology. The term VALA (plural VALAR) refers to the most powerful of the angelic beings that Illuvatar created before the world. The Valar are: Melkor (before his fall), Manwe, Varda, Ulmo, Aule, Yavanna, Namo (aka Mandos), Nienna, Irmo (aka Lorien), Vaire, Orome, Vana, Tulkas, and Nessa. The lesser angelic beings, some of whom were nearly as powerful as the Valar, are called MAIAR. Examples of the more powerful Maiar are Olorin (Gandalf), Sauron, Arien, Osse, Uinen, and Ungoliant. The Balrogs were Maiar of fire whom Melkor seduced into service. The collective term for the beings whom Illuvatar created before the world is AINUR (singular AINU). PSW ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 86 14:12:06 GMT From: fisher!larsen@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael Larsen) Subject: Re: Valar vs. Maia From: Brett Slocum > To clarify, Manwe, Ulmo, Elbereth, and Melkor/Morgoth are Valar; > Sauron, Gandalf, and the other Wizards, (and I think Luthien) are > Maia. Luthien was definitely an elf although her mother was a Maia. > Tom Bombadil is something else, probably not created by Illuvatar. This is a theory I haven't heard before. Do you have a passage in mind? ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 86 17:25:08 GMT From: hdsvx1!hoffman@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Hoffman) Subject: Tolkien for lesser enthusiasts I loved "The Hobbit." I was enthralled (several times) by "The Lord of the Rings." But when I got to the "Silmarillon" (sp?), I received a nasty shock. I just couldn't get into it; I only read a dozen pages or so. My question: What else by Tolkien is more in the narrative style of LotR? I did read some of the things in "The Tolkien Reader," but they are more in the whimsical style of "The Hobbit." Does "Silmarillon" get better later (it would have to get *much* better!)? Are the "Unfinished Tales" worth looking into? Or is LotR his single masterpiece? Richard Hoffman Schlumberger Well Services hoffman%hdsvx1@slb-doll.csnet PO Box 2175, Houston, TX 77252 ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 86 20:01:07 GMT From: tekecs!leonard@caip.rutgers.edu (Leonard Botleman) Subject: Re: Men and Sauron allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >There were Three Kindreds: Elves, created by the Ainur (Valar); >Dwarves, created by Aule... and Men, created by Iluvatar. The >times of the advent of the first two were known by the Valar;... No! The Elves were the First-born children of Illuvitar, not the Valar! Melkor was the first Valar to find out about the Elves, and Orome was the first of the good Valar to discover the Elves. Remember that the Elves were terrified by the first appearance of Orome because of their previous encounters with Melkor (or Melkor's servants). >The Elves were shown the wonder of Valinor very soon after they >awoke, and for a time almost *all* the Elves lived in Valinor. Again, not true. Fewer than half the Sindar, the largest group of elves by far, made it to Valinor. Many quit the journey along the way, and many more elected to stay in Beleriand with Elwe (Thingol). >(For example: when the Elves awoke, the night was beautiful with >starlight and nature in all its glory. Man awoke to night also... >night made fearful by Melkor and his servants. The Elves awoke at the second kindling of the stars by Elbereth, which is why they usually hold her in reverence above the other Valar, and Men awoke as the Sun first came into the sky (day, not night), which is why men generally fear the darkness. Leonard Bottleman allegra!tektronix!tekecs!leonard ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 86 11:16 CDT From: Brett Slocum Subject: Elves vs. Maia > yet he made the Silmarils and the Palantiri, which were, as > Gandalf said, beyond the skill of Sauron to make. One of the points that Tolkien makes several times is that Good is creative, and that Evil can only corrupt. For example, Melkor "created" Orcs and Trolls from Elves and Ents. Sauron needed the Elvish ringlore to make the Rings of Power. These examples are numerous. Brett (Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 86 13:37:24 GMT From: bonnie!ron@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald Zasadzinski) Subject: Re: Who wrote the Lord of the Rings? cpf@batcomputer.UUCP (Courtenay Footman) writes: >I don't suppose that anyone found some handwritten, red bound books >among Tolkien's papers after his death; barring that, is the answer >to the question known from any other source? It states in _Lost_Tales_ Part 1, that the 3 Red Books written by Bilbo are _The_Silmarillion_ in full. They do not contain any of The Lord of the Rings. Ron ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 86 13:46:26 GMT From: bonnie!ron@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald Zasadzinski) Subject: Re: Men and Sauron allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >You have to understand Middle-earth history. Specifically: > >There were Three Kindreds: Elves, created by the Ainur (Valar); >Dwarves, created by Aule... and Men, creted by Iluvatar. The times >of the advent of the first two were known by the Valar[...] > >On the other hand, the time of the advent of Men was a secret known >only to Iluvatar. [...] No, Elves were NOT creatd by the Valar. The Eldar (elves) AND Men were BOTH the children of Iluvitar. Also, the Valar did not know the 'time of the advent' of elves at all. One of the Valar (Orome?) discovered them while roaming the land. The Valar knew that Elves and Men were coming, but not when. Ron ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 86 15:42:55 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: And again, rings vis@trillian.UUCP (Tom Courtney) writes: >>This was caused MUCH earlier: Dwarves were commissioned to set the >>Silmaril which Thingol had received from Beren in the necklace >>Nauglamir. But the Dwarves, aroused by the beauty of the >>Silmaril, stole Nauglamir, which ultimately led to the destruction >>of Doriath. This caused the estrangement of Dwarves and Elves. > >I thought the split was even earlier than that. Wasn't it >forordained at their creation that they wouldn't get along with the >other races? Yes, it was foreordained, but I would not call this the *cause* of the rift. In reading the sagas of Middle Earth it is clear that there is a distinction between Destiny and cause. Many things in Middle Earth are fated to be, but they *still* have causes or reasons within the framework of Middle Earth! Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 86 16:07:07 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: More Rings... allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >Which is STILL pretty much the same thing. (I may NEVER learn to >speak English; the intent I really meant is that the two are so >tightly connected that one must accompany the other. The >Wraith-world has power over the flesh-world. Only in limited degree, and only over things of the *mind*. Pure wraiths heve very *little* power over physical objects. Look at what happened to Saruman at the end! Or, remember that Sauron had to make himself a new body before he could begin to dominate Middle Earth again in the Third Age! >The Seven -- it's only a theory; they are never explained. But the >Seven and the Nine were created at about the same time and by the >same collaboration between Celebrimbor and Sauron. So it's a >reasonable theory that they were intended to work the same way. >Which says a lot for Aule's work in creating the Dwarves... Yes indeed, in fact my understanding is that the Seven anfd the Nine are *identical* and it just the incredible immunity of the Dwarves to outside influence that "saved" them. >>I always thought that the "mindchat" was a native skill of three >>of the Wise involved, seldom used, but nevertheless available. >>But on reflection, I'm sure that the Three would at least enhance >>their abilities. Don't forget, though, that this is >>communications among willing parties, and not spying or invasion. > >The Rings only make the communication possible. Of course, it >helps if the participants are willing, and an unwilling-enough (and >powerful-enough mind, namely Galadriel's) can block even the One >Ring. Remember that Galadriel and Elrond are Noldor, and never is >it mentioned that the Noldor have this ability. Gandalf is another >matter... I must agree with the idea that it was a native ability, perhaps somewhat enhanced by the Rings. Yes it *is* said that Noldor have this ability. Read the account of the first meeting of Noldor and Men in the Silmarillion, it is quite clear that the Noldorin princes were able to understand the human speech becasue they could read thier minds. >Given that she has said that the Rings confer the ability to know >the minds and thoughts of others to those with the requisite mental >stature, this seemed obvious. > >Argument in my favor. The Nazgul felt it, albeit dimly, and made a >sweep of the Marshes. Not getting anything clearer, it left. > >>King lead Mordor's first armies out of Minas Morgul, with the Ring >>itself lying right opposite him, across the valley; when Frodo was >>captured > >But the King of Angmar FELT it. Reread, please. He felt it, again >dimly. Frodo's weakness of mind undoubtedly saved him, as the Ring >had no powerful mind to draw upon to put out traceable power. Yes, the Nazgul could feel the presence of the One Ring, it was their master, and they could feel its power as an oppression upon them. It was *not* Frodo's weakness of mind that saved him in Morgul Vale, it was the power of the Silmaril in the Phial that did so. >Ditto. Sam, not having worn the Ring before, is even weaker >mentally than Frodo, which is the only thing that saved him. No, I think it was taking the Ring *off* that saved him. >I was unclear again. Sauron felt a great power approaching Mordor, >but didn't know what power. When Aragorn revealed himself, Sauron >became convinced that Aragorn was in fact the power, and that he >might even have the Ring. So believing, and able to trace Aragorn, >he no longer worried about the unidentified power, since he'd >obviously identified it... and in the meantime, Frodo carried the >REAL power toward Orodruin. This is quite possible, but Sauron would have been suspicious even if he had not felt any approaching power. His intelligence reports had told him that the Fellowship had entered Gondor, and he *knew* one of them had the Ring, even without magic. And they had to have *some* purpose in coming south, or they would not have done it. So Aragorn provided Sauron with a reason! >As I hinted above, the Ring needs to be worn to have any measurable >power. This explains the scene quite well and fits ion with the >Ring's other capabilities, which require it to be worn. Well, *some* of the powers require it to be worn, but it is clear that even unworn it can have much power. Especially in Mordor, near its place of forging! Look what just *holding* the Ring did for Sam in the Tower of Cirith Ungol, and again for Frodo when Gollum attacked him on the slopes of Orodruin. In fact, I think it is this power of domination that allows the Nazgul to sense it, since they would be particlularly sensitive to it. In fact it is my belief that Gollum's falling into the Cracks of Doom was *not* an accident! Frodo had said "If you touch me again you shall be cast into the Cracks of Doom" while holding the Ring, and when Gollum attacked Frodo again he *was* cast into the Cracks of Doom!! That is *too* much of a coincidence. (the quote may not be exact, I do not have the book here). >``Behind that there was someething else at work, beyond any design >of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that >Bilbo was *meant* to find the Ring, and *not* by its maker.'' This >may also have applied to its slipping away from Gollum; on the >other hand the Ring DOES have power when not worn, it just works >more slowly and subtly, as it has less power to use for its >``purposes''. Absolutely, this is clear in many incidents in the story. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 86 20:32:00 GMT From: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu (Michaelntz) Subject: Re: Tolkien for lesser enthusiasts Your subject heading says it all: if you are a 'lesser enthusiast' (and I'm not making any moral judgements here, even though they're probably deserved ;-) ), you probably won't be really thrilled by anything except LotR. The rest of the stuff is endless fodder for serious Middle Earth Freaks, the trivia, all the detailed societal analysis you see going on on this net, etc - but in terms of literary merit and general readability, I think "The Hobbit" and LotR are really all you've got (you'd be surprised how many times you can reread LotR and still love it, though; I'm into double figures myself...) Ciao, mike krantz ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 86 13:14:13 GMT From: hdsvx1!hoffman@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Hoffman) Subject: Re: Re: Orcs > Just what does happen to Orcs? I don't know. If they are corrupted > and deformed elves, perhaps they too are reborn in their children. > On the other hand, they may have been so badly deformed that their > spirits were alo effected, and they do not get reborn. In this > case what happens? ... Any explanations? I would suggest that the evil master lacked the skills to imbue orcs with "spirit." This fact explains a lot about orcs. If they had any kind of inner-being at all, you would expect to occasionally find a "good" orc. But without spirit, they can only function as looting-killing-stealing machines, which was probably the initial intent. So what happens when they die? Zip. Nothing there to get reborn, or to wander, or to do anything. Richard Hoffman Schlumberger Well Services hoffman%hdsvx1@slb-doll.csnet PO Box 2175, Houston, TX 77252 ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jul 86 21:36:59 GMT From: sliu@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Sliu) Subject: Re: Sauron as Vala Where does it say that Ungoliant is a Maia? Steven Liu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Jul 86 0837-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #179 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 4 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 179 Today's Topics: Books - Bester & Bradley & Heinlein & Lem & Book Request & Author Request Answered, Films - Bladerunner Soundtrack, Television - Max Headroom (2 msgs) & Blake's 7 & Space: 1999, Miscellaneous - Orion Project ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Jun 86 02:06:22 GMT From: valid!bog@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill "O is for Bill" Gallimeister) Subject: Re: Herbert, Frank (really about Alfred Bester, funny science Subject: fiction) George Robbins writes.. > Alfred Bester is another good example of an author who only > produced really good stuff when working closely with an editor. > 'The Demolished Man' and 'The Stars my Destination' are great and > the rest barely worth reading... I howl in dismay! Alfred Bester is wonderful. His short stories (may I suggest "Fondly Fahrenheit" and "The Pi Man" for starters) are in that small quantity of work that can make THIS jaded reader go, "Wow!" (meaning, for me, that he is right up there with Harlan Ellison, Orson Scott Card, Stanislaw Lem and William Faulkner). Three of his other novels, _The Computer Connection_, _Golem^100_ and _The Deceivers_, are splendid. Bester has an engagingly madcap and macabre style which NO ONE has duplicated. I grant that _The Stars my Destination_ and _The Demolished Man_ are his best...but then, I think that _The Stars My Destination_ may possibly be the best action science fiction ever written. Bill O. Gallmeister {hplabs,amd,pyramid,ihnp4}!pesnta!valid!bog ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 86 16:40:32 GMT From: 6082317@PUCC.BITNET (Douglas Davidson) Subject: Re: Darkover PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU (Stephen Pearl) writes: >I just finished "Darkover Landfall" by Marion Zimmer Bradley and >enjoyed it alot. However, when I went to the bookstore, I found >tens of Darkover titles and no idea which book comes next. Can >someone post a chronological listing of all the Darkover books and >maybe some sort of rating system? Any help would be most >appreciated. Well, somebody made the request, so I guess I have some excuse for writing and posting this. Anyway, here goes; I apologize ahead of time for not having all the books on hand; some of this will depend on my memory. Mail me any corrections and I will collect and post them; I don't want to start another endless round of 'expert wars' like the LotR stuff. Differences of opinion are welcome by mail or posting. Here is a list of the Darkover books in Darkovan chronology, so far as I have been able to determine it; keep in mind that some of the orders and most of the time intervals are derived by indirect means from often ambiguous and sometimes contradictory indications in the books. In parentheses are the realtime dates, at least the ones I have written down. Unless otherwise noted, "years" means Darkovan years. Darkover Landfall(1972) The origin of human settlement on Darkover. Here is a gap variously estimated at two thousand to fifteen thousand plus (!) years. I prefer the lower estimates. Stormqueen!(1978) Hawkmistress!(1982) Two To Conquer(1980) These three take place from decades to centuries apart, but all some several hundred years before the next group; this is the Ages of Chaos. All the rest of the books take place some decades after the Terran rediscovery of Darkover. The Shattered Chain(1976) first part (the second part is twelve years later) Spell Sword(1974) The Forbidden Tower(1977) The Shattered Chain (second part) Thendara House(1983) City of Sorcery(1984) These six books take place over about twenty years; they share many characters and much plot. FT is an immediate sequel to SS, likewise TH to SC. CS is about 7 years after TH. There is little direct report of the events of the next generation, though they seem highly significant. Star of Danger(1965) Winds of Darkover(very early) The Bloody Sun(1964) The Bloody Sun(late) I place these together only because they fall into the 60+ year gap between two sets. SD and WD are (?) fairly close together about 10-15 years after CS, BS is 30-35 years later, with flashbacks of 20-25 years. Note that there are two versions of BS, the second one part of MZB's rewrite program; it is thicker and corrects some of the facts. The third generation is dealt with in more detail: Heritage of Hastur(late) Sharra's Exile(1981) Sword of Aldones(very early) The Planet Savers(early) The World Wreckers(early) HH is perhaps 60+ years after CS; SE is a sequel to it and a rewrite of SA. PS and WW are early attempts with little relation to the rest; chronology is hard, but they are evidently late on the time line. There are also three anthologies of short stories by MZB and others, Sword of Chaos, The Keeper's Price, and (I believe?) Free Amazons of Darkover; the stories occur at various times in the chronology. Recommendations: In reading these books it is wise to bear in mind that they were written over a period of more than twenty years, during which time the abilities and interests of the author have changed dramatically. Furthermore, the story of Darkover is no unified creation, but an accretion of these years; you will note that the earliest books come late in the chronology, and in fact the series seems mostly to have evolved backwards. Also, the series really is not a series, but more a group of cycles with some common background; I have divided the books into six groups above, and tried to make some indication of the connections, but they might well be arranged any number of ways. Any book really can be read without reference to the others, but I think some knowledge of the relationships will help. I have recommended SS followed by FT for newcomers: I think SS a good introduction to the basic theme of the Terran on Darkover, and also exciting if a bit thin; FT is to me the crux of the whole enterprise, and a crux in the appreciation of MZB's mature style. From there, the SC-TH-CS line embodies MZB's recent focused interest in feminism that seems to have won her such popularity. These three books are quite well done, perhaps even increasingly so with time, but I personally found CS surprisingly uninteresting. The three books of the Ages of Chaos (Sq, Hm, TTC) are good for separate reading, for each stands on its own; each one seems a solid work, and a fair sample of the author. The sequence HH-SE is a rewriting of the first conception of Darkover, SA; I think it is a good attempt, but the flaws of the original weigh heavily upon it. The rest of the books, with the exception of the second BS, will probably appeal only to enthusiasts. DL has some interesting ideas, if one ignores its lack of character development; I think its main purpose comes from its place in the history of Darkover. SA is unreadable, as the author has rightly noted. WD, PS, and WW are curiosities now, not particularly bad, but not (especially in comparison with MZB's later work) particularly good. I find SD and BS interesting less for what they contain, than for what they refer to, for the whole history of the planet between the times of Damon Ridenow and Lew Alton is known mostly from the gleanings of these books. SD in itself is a juvenile in a class with the other early books; BS is rather more interesting, for the newcomer probably more in the rewrite than the original; purists will of course read both. I have not read all of the story collections, but what I have read I have not found worth the reading. I might say much more than this, but I would then go beyond my purpose of giving guidance to the newcomer. Read the books and form your own opinions, no doubt quite different from mine. Douglas Davidson BITNET: 6082317@PUCC UUCP: ...allegra!psuvax1!pucc.bitnet!6082317 ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 86 15:14:50 GMT From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (S. Luke Jones) Subject: Re: Re: Another Lazarus Long Question Nathan Glasser writes: >> Also, on the back cover of the edition of TEFL I read, one of the >> blurbs about LL said "...A man so in love with time that he >> became his own ancestor..." I haven't been able to figure out >> what in the story this referred to. Any ideas about this? > > Is there ANY evidence that the fools who write those blurbs EVER > first read the book they're writing about?!? I have yet to see > any. It sounds like they've confused TEFL with "All You Zombies." AYZ is arguably the best short story I've ever read. I recommend it heartily to anyone anywhere for any reason. And if you already have or plan to read The Cat Who Walks Through Walls you simply *must* read it. Trivia: the Hooter's song of the same name has nothing to do with RAH's "All You Zombies," as nearly as I can figure out. Neither does Pat Benatar's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" have anything to do w/RAH's. Nor is RAH's "Starship Trooper" related to the song by Yes. Does anybody know any other songs with the same titles as books or stories by Heinlein? S. Luke Jones AT&T Information Systems Middletown, New Jersey ...ihnp4!mtung!slj ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 86 05:22:00 GMT From: bolotin@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: Comments and Questions about Stanis > Is anyone else upset that in the first story in _The Cyberiad_ > (about the robot that could do anything that starts with the > letter N--talk about a translator's nightmare) that he chose > *that* particular thing to miss most? Besides, everyone knows > they're still here. Maybe it wasn't a word when the translators > did it. I've read this story, and I enjoyed it. Sorry if I'm being dense, but what word did he miss? ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jul 86 21:06:27 GMT From: eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu (David Eppstein) Subject: When will these books come out? I am aware that Teckla is supposed to come out around December, and that Chanur's Homecoming is supposed to come out in January. But can anyone tell me when the following books are likely to be available? The conclusion to Pamela Dean's The Secret Country (SKZB?) The conclusion to Greg Bear's Infinity Concerto The next part of Roger Zelazny's new Amber series (titled Ghostwheel?) The sequel to Barry Hughart's Bridge of Birds I can be patient, but I like to know for how long... David Eppstein eppstein@cs.columbia.edu seismo!columbia!cs!eppstein ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 86 19:25:39 GMT From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Book query: _Green Eyes_ (?) li@uw-vlsi.UUCP (Phyllis Li) writes: >There was a Berkely Fiction book that had, as a premise, the >resurrection people. The live dead had glowin green eyes, which is >why I thought that that was the title; but I could be wrong. It was, indeed, called "Green Eyes;" the author is Lucius Shepard. Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jul 86 13:27 MST From: Paul Dickson Subject: Bladerunner soundtrack Cc: Jeff Dalton A bit of the music from 'Short Stories' by Jon Anderson & Vangelis was in Bladerunner. It took me a while to realize this because I wasn't playing the CD or the video tape very often. Paul Dickson Dickson%pco@HI-Multics ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 86 20:45:09 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!ilacqua@caip.rutgers.edu (Elizabeth Lear) Subject: Re: MAX HEADROOM Max Headroom has been, and will be again, hosting 'The Max Headroom Show' on Cinemax. It is a very strange video program, and it's amusing to see him interviewing singers from a tv set on a bar. I believe that he started from some British action/adventure show where he was 'written' by a teen whiz, and was the target of nasty guys because of something to do with subliminal messages (?). eliz ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jul 86 11:39:48 GMT From: well!ltf@caip.rutgers.edu (Lance T Franklin) Subject: Max Headroom Special For those of you who may be interested in Max Headroom: The Max Headroom Story on CineMax July 3rd Time? Who Knows. I'm sure all you....Cokeologists out there will be there! ------------------------------ Date: 1 July 1986 12:20:12 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Carlo N. Samson ) Subject: Star Trek & Blake's 7 First, thanks to all those on the net who provided the information about the Star Trek episode "Turnabout Intruder." Actually, I've seen that episode several times but I wasn't aware until now that it was the last original episode aired before the show was axed. While on the subject of sci-fi TV episodes, I have a query about the British SF series Blake's 7. I missed the episode in which Gan, a member of the Liberator crew, was killed. Could anyone tell me the name of that episode and what happened? (And how Gan died?) Also, I missed the last half hour of the episode titled "Killer," so I would appreciate any information on that, too. Thanks in advance, Carlo Samson U09862@uicvm ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 86 11:33:56 GMT From: kcl-cs!thornton@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC468) Subject: Re: SPACE 1999 on tape! doug@xenixsp.UUCP writes: >..._SYLVIA_DANNINGS_ADVENTURE_MOVIES_SPACE:_1999 >_THROUGH_THE_BLACK_SUN. Needless to say it looked interesting >enough to warrant not seeing some other SF tape for the N+1'th >time. Too Make a long story short it was two episodes of the old >SPACE 1999 series, that someone had cleverly edited together, (I >don't recall the names of the individual episodes but I remember >them). The tape was well done considering the ages and low budget >that SPACE 1999 had to work under. The budget certainly wasn't low, it was the most expensive tv program ever produced up till that time.. >Excepting for the narrative" the two episodes that were chosen were >to of the better ones that I remember from the first season of >SPACE 1999. This is a good sign that there might be more of the >SPACE 1999 series showing up in the stores soon. Hopefully without >the narration. Toooo late... Several others have already been released.In order they are: 1) 'Destination Moonbase Alpha' (Bringers of Wonder) This has a little narration whereby the events are moved to the year 2100(?) ..SPACE : 2100&abit ..I don't think so. 2) 'Alien Attack' (Breakaway & War Games) A little naration & 'added bits' featuring Patrick Allen. 3) 'Cosmic Princess' (Metamorph & Space Warp) Definitely the least narrated i.e. not at all. Has 1st season sound dubbed over it. This is the least interesting tape. 4) The object you described which I have not managed to get yet. (Black Sun & Collision Course) Tis good to see someone else who likes quality nostalgia:-) What I do not understand is why these were released in such an awful condition. Why not unedited copies? I recently saw some unedited originals and believe the show was much better than many people like to think, Flares prejudice perhaps?:-) Andy T. ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: orion project, references to in sf literature Date: 30 Jun 86 13:12:48 GMT From: bradley thompson >In the 60's the US had a nuclear propulsion project called Orion. I >am aware of two (2) references to this in books: > 1- the shuttle taking H. Floyd up to the space station in 2001 was >called the Orion. I'm not quite sure it's fair to call the PanAm Orion in 2001 a reference to the Orion project -- it was just a (more or less conventional) winged hybrid (air-breathing/space-going) ship. You know, what the Shuttle would have been if only.... Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Jul 86 0853-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #180 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 5 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 180 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Card & Lem & Piper, Films - Books into Films (2 msgs) & Labyrinth, Miscellaneous - Filksongs & Japanese & The Space Program ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Jun 86 09:14:57 GMT From: cs1!cacscmst@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael Steven Temkin) Subject: Re: Piers Anthony From: Antonio Leal >Someone asked about the origin of Piers Anthony's "Prostho Plus". >The answer is in the notes for "Anthonology", which includes 3 >chapters of "Prostho Plus". Those two are the only P.A. books I >bought, and I am sorry, and promise not to do it again! > >In the "Anthonology" notes, he whines how hard it was for him to >make his first sales, and crows how he has made it big now. No >wonder: as a writer, he is absolute trash, totally incompetent, and >I can only praise the editors who defended us from him. >Unfortunately, the market for trashy fantasy allowed him to get out >of the garbage cans and into the bookshelves ("it took me ten years >to elbow Asimov aside", quoth the buzzard). > >What about the origin of "Prostho Plus", you ask? He wanted to milk >something more out of the money he paid for dental work. Don't think you're so smart that two books tell you all about an author. I have every P.A. book ever published! There are some dogs, but on the whole, he is an excellent author. Try the Bio, Cluster, or Incarnations series. Although it has gotten out of hand with 9 books, the Xanth series is still an excellent series to read. When you read (if you know how to read) his books, be sure to read the Author's Note at the end of his books since it is here he states who his favorite authors are, and how he rates his own books. By the way, are you also an authority on Lunar Camping also? ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 86 14:00:15 GMT From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: ENDER'S WAR by Orson Scott Card (mild spoiler) Time: the near future (150-200 years from now) Place: mainly Earth, space station near earth, and the asteroid belt Introduction: 70 years before the story starts, Earth fought a war with the Buggers, insect creatures from another solar system. Only through the brilliant and unexpected tactics of Mazer did Earth succeed in destroying the Bugger fleet. Since that time the military has been taking promising kids and sending them to military school in the hopes of finding one genius who can lead the fleet against the expected next invasion. Ender Wiggin appears to be that child. Main storylines: Ender's training; brother and sister molding public opinion back on Earth. SF elements: lots of technology and tactics for space battles; believable space station environment; netters will especially like the extensive use of e-mail, e-news, and CAI. Critique: This book is an expansion of the first story the author ever published. With one minor exception, the book reads as if it were of one fabric (and not one that has been stretched, either). There's a lot of action since the adults who are directing Ender's education keep throwing new situations at the kid. And since Ender is a very advanced boy, the fact that the dialogue sounds as if it came from adults is not disturbing. Most of the story takes place in the first few years of Ender's training, and very little gets in the way of the main storyline. The book also holds a couple of neat surprises (which I won't give away, of course). I give the book 3.5 stars (very good) -- it's a keeper. Duane Morse ...!noao!{mot|terak}!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jul 86 10:10:39 GMT From: de@comp.lancs.ac.uk (David England) Subject: Re: Comments and Questions about Stanislaw Lem gts@axiom.UUCP writes: >No two of his books seem to have the same translator--maybe after >translating one of his books, the translators change careers. :-) >There seems to be no consistency between his short stories and his >novels (I consider _The Futurological Congress_ to be a long short >story). I think Michael Kandel translated "Futurological Congress" and one other ("Perfect Vacuum" ?). Perhaps he's recovering in a darkened room somewhere. I have a collection containing Solaris, Chain of Chance and Perfect Vacuum but can't remember the publisher. Solaris was baffling especially after seeing the Soviet film before reading the book and Perfect Vacuum is ... well.. how do you describe a set of critical reviews of non-existent books with a self-referential introduction ? I read Star Diaries a couple of years ago and can't remember anything about it. The stories are probably so far removed from reality that they just don't stick. Dave uucp: ...!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!de arpa: de%lancs.comp@ucl-cs ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jul 86 15:45:26 EDT From: Ray Subject: piper I just finished Space Viking and Little Fuzzy and would wish to know the titles of his others books and more about the man himself. Thanks for any responses Ray ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jul 86 13:21:55 EDT From: Ray Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #175 It has been asked what sf books would make good movies, here is a list of the ones I think would make the best. 1. Ringworld by Larry Niven 2. Space Viking by H. Beam Piper 3. Stranger in a Strange Land By RAH 4. Protector by Niven 5. Dream Park by Niven and Barnes 6. Mercenary by Jerry Pournelle Any others to be added while we are dreaming? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jul 86 13:39:45 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Re:Stories into flicks Someone mentioned THE FINAL REFLECTION as a possible movie. My vote would be cast for THE WOUNDED SKY--a terrific battle sequence is in there, but what I want to see is all of Starfleet welcoming the Enterprise home from the Lesser (?) Magellanic Cloud. Garrett Fitzgerald st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wisc.wiscvm.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jul 86 02:30:27 -0700 From: J. Peter Alfke Subject: Labyrinth (dissenting opinion) I must disagree with the person who recently posted a glowing review of the new film "Labyrinth" --- I absolutely hated it, and would have walked out 20 minutes into it had I not driven others to the theater. Why this reaction? The most prominent reason is, well, let me digress for a moment. Ursula LeGuin wrote a great essay called "From Elfland to Poughkeepsie", in which she addressed the uses and abuses of fantasy. The best fantasy, that which really *works*, deploys myth and archetype in order to achieve a real sense of fantasy, of another world. This is LeGuin's "Elfland". The spate of bad recent fantasy, however, while adopting the trimmings (dragons, quests, magic spells, unicorns, et al), evokes no sense of atmosphere, no enchantment, nothing to resonate with the archetype receptors in our brains ( :-) ). This is Poughkeepsie. And Poughkeepsie is squarely where "Labyrinth" falls, with a thud. Our heroine, the spoiled brat (at the beginning--I'll get to that), despite her hastily-sketched obsession with fantasy, is squarely out of 1980's American suburbia, and so are her reactions to everything she encounters. True, Alice was matter-of-fact in her encounters, but she saw the magic and treated it as such. Whats-her-name just acts as though she's in some D&D game: the whole movie gave me the feeling of watching someone go through a very involved Disneyland ride. And the creatures she encounters are by and large no better; they might as well have been taken in off the street (a street in London for some of them) and given funny costumes to wear. This may be a kid's film, but the characters and their dialog are just like things I used to write when I was ten years old or so. Just because it's aimed at children doesn't mean the writing has to be childish. Oh yes, the character development. Whats-her-name is so disagreeable at the beginning of the film that character development is sorely necessary. The filmmakers grudgingly remember this and, every fifteen minutes or so, we're treated to a shovelful of soppy sentimentality as gruff monsters become kindly in response to her friendly advances, and everyone reflects on just how nice it is to have friends to help you. Phoney as all hell, and strictly clockwork. The absolute low points, in which I wanted to crawl out of the theater: David Bowie as the Head Nasty Goblin breaking into a typical bad recent Bowie song in the castle, a song referring often to "baby" which from context alone seems to refer to the baby he's stolen, while the goblins dance around in bad music-video fashion. This COMPLETELY destroys any atmosphere or mood that may have, against all odds, been fashioned by that point. Okay, there was good stuff. The special effects were superb, and some were better than anything I've ever seen. There were some inventive thingys set in our heroine's path, creatures and devices and such, but they were just props, they didn't connect, the inventiveness didn't spread to anything else. But overall ... all the good stuff is wasted amongst clumsy dialog, bad acting, low humor (what's so funny about fart jokes?) ... there was no attempt to create a coherent mood, the filmmakers just threw in whatever they happened to think of. "But Peter," you cry, "this is a movie for *children*!" My reply: "Just because it's to appeal to children doesn't mean it has to be BAD." Look at "Time Bandits", a film which did everything "Labyrinth" attempts and succeeded amazingly. A children's film with fantasy and nifty special effects and even cuteness, that managed to be honest, funny, enchanting and **fun as hell for adults, too**. Save your five bucks for the next time "Time Bandits" comes around (or "The Company of Wolves", if you want great fantasy). If you've nothing better to do than get drunk and see a rented movie on your VCR, then "Labyrinth" might be a good bet. Rating? I had a very unpleasant time watching this movie, so I'd say -4, but on an objective scale I'd say it only deserves -3. (+4 for sfx, -4 everything else. How often have we all seen movies like this in the last couple years?) Peter Alfke alfke@csvax.caltech.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jul 86 13:49:37 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Filksongs ENTERPRISE, STARSHIP Words: Diane Duane Music: Calypso, by John Denver Verse 1: To sail on a dream in the sun-fretted darkness, To soar through the starlight unfrightened, alone, To work in the service of life and the living, In search of the answers to questions unknown, To be part of the movement,and part of the growing, Part of beginning to understand, Chorus: Enterprise, starship, the places you've been to, The things that you've shown us, the stories you'd tell! Enterprise, starship, we sing to your spirit, The beings who have served you so long and so well. Verse 2: Like the starfire that guides you as we ride inside you, You shine in the darkness and lead us aright, And though we are strangers in your silent spaces, While we're in your world we can learn from your night, To be constant as stars, to reach ever outward, Laughing and loving and *being* the light! CHORUS ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jul 86 12:01:11 PDT (Wednesday) Subject: Re: THE CYBERNETIC SAMURAI by Victor Milan From: Shinsato.osbunorth@Xerox.COM > He speaks of writing Japanese with Chinese characters and makes > references to classic Chinese art and other aspects of Chinese > life in such a way as to imply that the Japanese have adopted > Chinese culture. This simply isn't true, and it only serves to > jar the reader out of an otherwise well-drawn society. I'm so sorry, but I can not let you get away with such a statement. Japan has adopted Chinese culture to a large extent. Japanese culture is still Japanese, but you gain nothing by denying the major influence. First of all, Japanese writing is COMPLETELY taken from Chinese. Kanji, the ideograms which Japanese use are Chinese ideograms. Some of the ideograms have changed in minor ways, but the basic symbols and their meanings remain. Katakana and Hiragana are much further removed from Chinese, since they are phonetic and have lost their original symbolism, but they were modified Chinese ideograms (just as the Roman alphabet originally came from a set of ideograms that were adopted for their sounds rather than their meanings). Japan has managed to remain Japan even though it has submitted to both the influence of Chinese and Western civilization. Some might say that that is the source of Japan's current strength. Harold ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 86 09:50 ??? From: MLEWIS%FLVAX1%ti-eg.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA Subject: Sorrow over the Space Program I was reading the messages about the Space Program, and it reminded me of a conversation I had recently. Right after the Challenger disaster, a friend was bemoaning the possibly fatal blow that the Space Program had taken. He was afraid that the Government would be reluctant to send seven more people up, and in any case, there was no money for a new ship. "I wish the American people could do something to demonstrate their support and enthusiasm for another Shuttle," he said. "Someone should start a fund or something, that the country could get behind, and and we could contribute and finance a new one." "Why don't you?" I asked. "Oh, I couldn't do that," he replied. "People don't listen to me. I can't sell an idea or anything else." End of conversation. Except that last Sunday he turned up with a terrific pin on his lapel, with a space shuttle on it. He DID start it, and the Challenger 7 Fund has begun. This is a real grass roots deal, but for real, and the press releases are coming out next week. If people want to participate, they may send contributions (in US funds) to: Challenger 7 Fund 1123 Wicklow Dr. Dallas TX 75218 Any contributor who sends at least $6 will receive a pin. There are also such goodies as T-shirts and gimme caps and a poster on the drawing board. I think the neatest thing, though, is that the names of all identifiable contributors will go on a microdot which will go up with Challenger 7. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Jul 86 0919-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #181 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 6 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 181 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Jun 86 23:19:12 -0800 From: Alastair Milne Subject: Re: Rings...last comment >Vilya - This one was given to Elrond. This one preserves wisdom >and knowledge. Was not Rivendell the Last Homely Home wherein much >wisdom was stored...in all forms: song, prose, and personal >experience. This trait is also reflected in the character of >Elrond (coincidence??) This one was actually first given to Gil-Galad, but he gave it to Elrond, presumably before the battle of the Last Alliance. Beyond that, I agree with you, and I suspect Vilya gave Elrond power to maintain Rivendell as a last retreat for the Wise in a darkening world. >Narya - This one was originally given to Cirdan who then passed it >along to Gandalf when he realized that he would have much more need >of it and could make better use of it. This ring preserves and >uplifts the spirits of those around it. Ever notice how people are >always sad to see him leave and how he always manages to make those >around him feel better? Gandalf himself is very often described in >words which conjure thoughts of flame and fire....(coincidence??) I say again: Narya, though named the Ring of Fire, had nothing to do with Gandalf's mastery of flame and fireworks. That was his special ability, aided by his staff. You say correctly that it was to uplift the spirits of those whom Gandalf rallied to the defense of the West, his single great purpose in being in Middle Earth. Yet it certainly isn't true that *everybody* was glad to see him, and sorry when he left. People around Hobbiton wished he would leave Frodo alone to grow some proper hobbit sense, and the Rohirrim and the Dunedain of Gondor, observing how he and bad times seemed to arrive together, welcomed him ever more coolly. Yet he instilled fierce loyalty among those who had been with him during the worst of times: they grew to love even his swift temper. >When Gandalf came from the Valar to begin his work, Cirdan >immediately saw that he had a long and heavy burden. It was >natural for him to pass on the ring, especially to one who worked >with fire (You might almost say it was ordained by "SOMEONE" - And >yes, I think it was a factor in his fight with the Balrog). While I fully agree with most of your argument, the descriptions of the Rings' functions, the things for which their designers wanted them, have no connection with the special concentrations of the various Istari. Gandalf would have received the Ring of Fire whatever his specialisation, because, as the enemy of the One Enemy, which Cirdan foresaw he would be, he needed the Ring that would rally followers. What do you feel it contributed to the fight against the Balrog? Certainly it wasn't directly a weapon. The only thing I can imagine is that it heightened the eagerness of the Company to stand with Gandalf, which is exactly what he didn't want: he wanted them to escape Moria as fast as they could. Of course (this only just occurred to me) it may have raised their morale enough that they did run even after Gandalf fell, rather than panicing, or simply giving up -- though I can't imagine that of Aragorn under any circumstances. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 86 23:42:09 -0800 From: Alastair Milne Subject: Galadriel's power The matter of what power Galadriel had, and how much came from her Ring, reminded me of something I'd nearly forgotten: During the Siege of Gondor, Mordor launched attacks at two or three other locations. Three of these (in succession, of course) were at Lorien. All were repelled. Then, when the Siege had been defeated, Galadriel and Celeborn emerged from Lothlorien leading a host of Elves, crossed the Anduin, and attacked Dol Guldur. Now for what I want to emphasise: According to the only descriptions I've seen of this attack, it was Galadriel who threw down the walls of Dol Guldur, and cleansed its dungeons. While I can see her Ring of healing and preservation helping greatly to deal with the dungeons, it would have done nothing to knock down walls. Which means it must have been her own power (and possibly Celeborn's) which did so. This seems to me to suggest that she herself, even unaided, possessed great power, well beyond the measure of the Sylvan Elves around her (most of the Elves of the Galadrim were Sylvan). In fact, even though she was not a Maia, she seems to have had power on their scale. Either this was intrinsic to the Noldor, being among the highest of the high, raised by the Valar well above the levels of the Elves who remained in Middle Earth; or perhaps it was in her family, starting with Feanor, whose craft attained things that even Maiar seemed unable to do. Unfortunately, I know of no further details of the attack, nor can I think of other instances of Galadriel in full cry. I think we just have to accept the fact that Galadriel seemed to have immense power, but that details of it, and where it came from, will always be a mystery. What a pity Celebrimor died in the Second Age: to see him at work would have been an education, to say the least, and a good comparison with her. If anybody can shed better light than this, I'd be very happy to see it. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 1 Jul 1986 15:03:59-PDT From: winalski%psw.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Paul S. Winalski) Subject: Sauron and the One Ring's corrupting influence I do not buy Mark Crispin's assertions concerning Sauron's repentence and his subsequent corruption by the One Ring. First of all, it is by no means clear that Sauron's repentence is genuine. The most Tolkien ever said is that he MAY have genuinely repented, at least at first. The facts are (1) Sauron was genuinely dismayed at the defeat of Morgoth and the power of the Valar in the breaking of Thangorodrim, (2) Sauron did homage to Eonwe and claimed to have repented, (3) Sauron did not return to Valinor to be judged as ordered by Eonwe. There are two possible explanations for this. (1) Sauron was only feigning to have repented, and was merely trying to avoid being bound and forcibly brought back to Valinor for judgement. (2) Sauron truly repented, but fell back into his old ways due to his impatience with the slow unfolding of things in Middle Earth. (2) is certainly very plausible. Sauron's impatience and desire to hurry things along by forcing others to do what he considered the right thing may be the hook that Melkor used to ensnare him in the first place. My point is, there is no way of knowing whether or not Sauron's repentence was genuine. Tolkien left the point vague on purpose. I think it is quite clear that Sauron was totally corrupt by the time the One Ring was forged. Even before he appeared in the West as Annatar, he had already slipped back to his old ways. Gil-Galad warned Tar-Minastir that Evil (with a capital "E") had resurfaced in the East of Middle Earth, and that was significantly before the forging of the Rings. Even at that early date the Wise had reason to believe that the Shadow had re-awakened (subsequent events proved this was the case). The power to reduce mortal kind to wraiths was built into the Rings at their forging. This had to come from Sauron--the Elvensmiths would hardly put this in themselves. No doubt Sauron left "undocumented hooks" in the Rings that would allow him to control the Rings (and their posessors) with part of his own power, once suitably transferred into the One. Doubtless the One posessed great power to corrupt and to turn its wearer towards evil. As we can see with Saruman, mere desire for it can corrupt. Nonetheless, I do not think it corrupted Sauron. He was already as corrupt as they come (not less evil than Morgoth, merely less powerful, as the Silmarillion says) when he forged it. PSW ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 86 22:07:29 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: ...and yet more Rings... crane@rivest.dec.com writes: >This quote brings up an interesting question. Who was Bombadil? He >was called "the Eldest," having "walked Middle-Earth for ages >before the Elves awoke." > >If he were literally the "Eldest," then his true name is Illuvatar. >This seems quite unlikely, especially in light of the discussion in >the Council of Elrond, in which is was said of Sauron's power, >"...but sooner or later the Lord of the Rings would learn of It's >hiding-place, and he would bend all of his power towards it. Could >that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not..." Personally, I am inclined to believe that Bombadil was Iluvatar, at least in some sense. The quote above is explained very easily: the speaker does not know who Bombadil is (this is admitted), and so underestimates his power. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jul 86 15:16:35 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Legolas chris@maryland.UUCP (Lindor) writes: >From: friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) >>But [Legolas] *is* Sindarin, or a dialectic variant of it. the >>proper Sindarin form of the name would be 'Laigolas'. > >Well now I do feel dumb---though that still sounds a bit odd to me. >Ah well, languages do change. I was thinking of `leg' + `las', not >`laigos', and the best I came up with was that `las' might be an >alteration of `last', giving `sharp-eyed' (keen + look). (No one >would call his son `able-leaf', except perhaps in jest.) > >Ah! Come to think of it, Legolas was rather sharp-eyed at that. >What a marvellous pun! Well, not so dumb really, the proper Sindarin form was in one of the letters in , which is a rather obscure source. There is in fact a simple way of tellng that the name is *not* Quenya though. Quenya, or at least the dialect of it spoken in Middle Earth, has *no* free-standing voiced stops, like the 'g' in Legolas. In Quenya voiced stops only occur in combination with a nasal or with an 'l', as in 'ando', 'alda', 'imbe'. "Las" is of course the Sindarin cognate to the Quenya "lasse" (plural "lassi"), meaning leaf. As a matter of fact, even in Quenya a final, unaccented "lasse" in a compound word would probably be reduced to "las" in the Nominative/Accusative case. As for instance in the word "coimas" from "masse" . The evidence is that this reduction was primarily restricted to the Noldorin dialect of Quenya though. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jul 86 15:28:19 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Guiding power for good From: Steven.Lammert@cive.ri.cmu.edu >> 3. There are hints at a guiding power for good in LotR. >> Gandalf@* says at one point "All I can say is that Bilbo was >> meant to find the@* Ring, and not by its maker". He is clearly >> implying that Someone is@* helping the good guys. > >I disagree. When the Valar laid down their guardianship of >Middle-Earth, and called upon Eru to foil the invasion of Aman by >Ar-Pharazon, my reading of the text is that this was not a >permanent arrangement. Granted, in the Third Age they seem to >restrict their interactions with the Children of Illuvatar to >intermediaries such as the Istari This is certainly my understanding. In fact I see several other places where the Valar may have stepped in besides Elbereth's aid to Frodo and Samwise. I have thought long on the incredible breaking of the Mordor dark at the siege of Minas Tirith. Considering that it was made by Sauron's magic it seems unbelievable that a mere earthly wind could remove it. I have speculated that the wind was in fact sent by Manwe, the Lord of Winds. > I always have believed that the phrase "Bilbo was meant to find >the Ring, and not by its maker" referred to Elbereth or one of her >kind. > >Illuvatar, Eru, The One, is rarely mentioned in LotR. I think that >the Valar are probably the ones that Gandalf had in mind. After >all, he talks with some familiarity about the Blessed Realm and its >inhabitants; and though "removed from the circles of the world," >they are still very interested in Middle Earth and its fate. Here I must disagree, I do not think that the Valar had the power of Fate, that comes from the Music and the Will of Eru. Thus I do believe that Bilbo was Fated to find the Ring from before the Making of Ea. This is equivalent to saying that Eru decreed it. Eru is rarely mentioned out of respect(sort of like the Jewish taboo against saying the name of God). One place where I think there is indirect mention is when Gandalf talks about his experience after being killed by the Balrog. He talks about "wandering beyond space and time" which might be a simple way of saying 'beyond Ea'. If so then Gandalf was sent back by Eru himself, *not* by the Valar. I believe this interpretation is supported by Tolkien himself. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jul 86 15:48:39 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Tolkien for lesser enthusiasts hoffman@hdsvx1.UUCP (Richard Hoffman) writes: >My question: What else by Tolkien is more in the narrative style of >LotR? I did read some of the things in "The Tolkien Reader," but >they are more in the whimsical style of "The Hobbit." Does >"Silmarillon" get better later (it would have to get *much* >better!)? Are the "Unfinished Tales" worth looking into? Or is >LotR his single masterpiece? I really do not think he ever finished anything else quite like LotR. You made a mistake in trying to read the Silmarillion as a single story, it is a collection of several, most of them written in "historians" style. Read in the right frame of mind they are quite interesting. Try reading the last one, which is the story of the Third Age as it would be told by a historian from Gondor! It provides a very interesting perspective on the events of LotR! As for "The Unfinished Tales", they are, to say the least, *unfinished*. There are a few in it that have a very powerful epic style(though different than LotR), but they are *all* missing important pieces. There are also some fascinating pieces, or short essays, pertaining to the history of Middle Earth, like an account of the massacre at Gladden Fields and the events leading up to the Oath of Eorl. There is also a passage originally intended for the LotR that was deleted due to the length of the story. It is Gandalf explaining what Sauron and Saruman were doing during the early part of LotR. (There are unforunately three mutually contradictory drafts of this conversation). If you are interested in background these later essays are very interesting, and the early passages show what the Silmarillion was *intended* to be, if it had been completed. For the masochistically inclined the "Lost Tales" series has much real-world background and history. Beware, Tolkien's early work was rather abysmal! The original form of the Silmarillion was far less compelling and believable than it later became. It is only in the Lays of Beleriand that you get back to the powerful writing of Tolkien's later years. This is, mostly, the Lay of Luthien told in full, or at least as far as it ever got(the end is missing). This is probably what Aragorn meant when he said the ending is now lost and that only Elrond remembered the whole of it. It is first rate epic *poetry* of grand proportions. If you like Tolkien's poetry this is well worth the money. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Jul 86 0808-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #182 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 7 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 182 Today's Topics: Books - Busby & Lem (2 msgs) & McKiernan & Recycling the Dead & Upcoming Books & Funny SF, Films - Dragonslayer & Labyrinth (2 msgs) & Big Trouble in Little China, Music - Robotech Soundtrack, Television - Star Trek ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Jul 86 02:44:31 GMT From: watdcsu!demo@caip.rutgers.edu (COURSE USE [DCS]) Subject: F.M. Busby and Rissa Kergeulen Will someone please explain,preferably in words of no more than 4 syllables, what is happening with the RISSA series. Just when I believed that I had finished the series with THE LONG VIEW out comes some more seemingly from the viewpoint of Bran Tregare . Did I merely miss some of the series or is this a rehashing of the same material ( a neat way of doubling your income from the same amount of plotting) . If possible please include a list of all the books in the series (or associated with it if that is the case). Thanks Rick Attenborough demo@watdcsu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jul 86 09:52:10 EDT From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Jim White) Subject: I remember Solaris! * Minor Spoiler * People have written concerning Stanislaw Lem; >>I've also found that much of his work has the peculiar effect of >>leaving almost no memory trace in my mind. Is it because of the >>language? I certainly enjoy his work. I've never noticed this >>before with any other author--not one that I've enjoyed this much, >>anyway. Any psychology students want to give an opinion? >Have you read Solaris? I really couldn't agree more with both postings. Lem's works also have a way of being curiously absent from my memory, mere days after reading them. So far I've read, Chain of Chance The Cyberiad Futuralogical Congress The Star Diaries Memoirs Found in a Bathtub Solaris Also one about the Pentagon Building, (The Building, maybe), I can't even remember the titles of his books very well! In any event, the one exception are certain chilling passages from Solaris. It's been many years, and although I can't remember the detail all that well, the emotions are still with me. In particular, I remember a scene in which the main character's ex-wife or girlfriend/duplicate, is trying to batter down the door of an escape pod or ship of some sort. I also remember my skin crawling. It wasn't a terror that Stephen (Ho Hum) King attempts to inspire, but a kind of cold sweating strangness. I haven't re-read it, and I haven't experienced it in any other Lem book. Parts of Solaris, like much of Lem, drags on ad nauseum but it is required reading for a Lem fan. There was a movie made of the book, although I never saw it and I don't think it was widely distributed in the U.S., it would have to be worth seeing if at all possible. Does anyone know anything of its availability? ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jul 86 21:49:00 GMT From: silber@uiucdcsp.CS.UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: Comments and Questions about Stanis >Translator's nightmare? I've been wondering: HOW DID THE >TRANSLATOR (Michael Kandel in this case) MAKE ALL THOSE *PUNS* WORK >IN _The_ _Futurological_Congress_?? I don't think puns generaly >translate very well. Anyone with more language experience out >there care to comment? I was impressed. I have heard somewhere (NPR?) That Lem deliberately writes so that many of his puns are translatable, i.e., he writes for translation. Also, I have heard that he works closely with his translators. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 86 00:07:00 GMT From: cbuxc!dim@caip.rutgers.edu (Dennis McKiernan) Subject: The Silver Call duology is now available... As requested, I hereby announce that the "sequel" to The Iron Tower trilogy, The Silver Call duology, is now available in hardback from Doubleday: Book 1: Trek to Kraggen-cor Book 2: The Brega Path Oh yeah, ignore what is written on the cover blurbs, it's not accurate at all. Dennis L. McKiernan ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jul 86 21:45:00 GMT From: silber@uiucdcsp.CS.UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: Recycling the dead (Heroes in Hell franka@mmintl.UUCP writes: >James B. VanBokkelen writes: >>[...] the recycling of historic personalities. When Farmer first >>(?) did it in _Riverworld_ > >Certainly not first. R. A. Lafferty's _Past_Master_ antedates >that, if nothing else. Actually, there is a pair of late 19th century novels (I cannot recall the name of the author) called "The House-Boat on the Styx" and "The Pursuit of the House-Boat" in which various shades such as Sir Walther Raleigh, Socrates, and Julius Ceaser get together and form a Victorian style men's club on a houseboat in the Styx (with Charon as the "janitor"). The ladies, Calpurnia, Helen of Troy, and Queen Elizebeth, among others, take exception, and on the day that the club is empty, they take it over. Alas, captain Kidd and his pirates abduct the houseboat and the ladies. I haven't yet read "Pursuit". Ami Silberman ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jul 86 12:42:48 GMT From: dartvax!betsy@caip.rutgers.edu (Betsy Hanes Perry) Subject: Re: When will these books come out? eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu (David Eppstein) writes: >I am aware that Teckla is supposed to come out around December, and >that Chanur's Homecoming is supposed to come out in January. But >can anyone tell me when the following books are likely to be >available? I attended the "Fourth Street Fantasy Convention" in June, and bumped into Pamela Dean and Roger Zelazny; the following are what I remember them saying. >- The conclusion to Pamela Dean's The Secret Country (SKZB?) "Any moment now". "The Secret Country" was written as one very-large book which was split into halves by the publisher. The publisher should be releasing volume 2 momentarily. >- The next part of Roger Zelazny's new Amber series (titled > Ghostwheel?) "This fall". >I can be patient, but I like to know for how long... Me, too. Now if only Joyce Ballou Gregorian would write part three of "The Broken Citadel"... Elizabeth Hanes Perry UUCP: {decvax |ihnp4 | linus| cornell}!dartvax!betsy CSNET: betsy@dartmouth ARPA: betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relay ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 4 Jul 1986 13:44:10-PDT From: mccutchen%pennsy.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (R. TERRY MCCUTCHEN From: 289-1428) Subject: Funny SF. I believe the funniest I have read is "When They Came From Space". Published Late 50's early 60's. I can't recall the author and my copy is packed. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 86 08:19 PDT From: Hank Shiffman Subject: Labyrinth (non-spoiler) From: dartvax!betsy@caip.rutgers.edu (Betsy Hanes Perry) >There have been so many fantasy movies released in the last few >years -- and most have left me unsatisfied. Many had wonderful >special effects and sets, but truly dreadful plots and >scriptwriting (Legend, The Sword and the Sorceror); some had >atrocious acting (Beastmaster); two came close to being great >movies, but had five-minute climaxes which the director had chosen >to stretch to twenty (The Dark Crystal, Ladyhawke.) Candidly, I'd >just about given up hope. > >Then I saw "Labyrinth". Just to point out one film you didn't mention, on the highly unlikely probability you haven't seen it yet. Dragonslayer is such a superior effort that I find it hard to believe it came from the same industry as the dreck you mention. As Roger Ebert once pointed out, "If the Middle Ages didn't look like this, they should have." They avoided the stupidity of Ladyhawke by actually having a surprise ending that WAS a surprise. (They also avoided an ultra-modern soundtrack for something more atmospheric. Hearing synthesizers in a film about the Middle Ages makes my teeth ache.) And Sir Ralph Richardson shows you what character acting is all about. Highly recommended. ------------------------------ Date: Thu 3 Jul 86 20:24:18-CDT From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: Labyrinth I was surprised at the two glowing reviews of Labyrinth. I myself had VERY mixed feelings about the movie. I WANTED to like it a lot, but there were problems. For one thing, it seemed incredibly schizophrenic: a kiddie/muppet movie a dark fantasy a serious coming of age type movie a quite humorous Monty Python movie (it was written by Terry Jones) & (ugh) an MTV video movie. Plus some other genres I'm probably not remembering. Now I don't claim it's impossible to mix genres or anything, but in this case it seems to be going overboard, and I didn't think it worked. Some scenes were incredible (I was especially struck by the masquerade ball as well -- it was quite fantastic) but other scenes (like the dancing muppets singing the rock song around the fire) were painfully bad. Also, I wasn't sure how appropriate a movie it was for kids. I was seated right in front of a child who seemed upset at some scenes such as ** mild spoiler ** the fairies getting sprayed with insecticide and crying out as they fall to earth, or the girl (Jennifer Connelly is her name, I believe) coming upon Hoggle the dwarf as he's pissing into a pond. Not to mention that Little Toby gets some pretty rough treatment, if you think about it: a little 2-year-old (or however old he is, I can't tell baby's ages) getting screamed at by ugly goblins... ** end spoiler ** anyway, I got the impression there were some scenes parents in the audience wished weren't there. But I don't know, I'm no child psychologist. The main point is just that although I was REALLY impressed with parts of the movie, overall I was frustrated and disappointed by it. Does anyone feel as I do, or am being overly harsh? Also, is anyone else sick of MTV style music slapped onto movies? E.g., Sweet Liberty was great except for the absurdly out of place Patti Labelle music slapped on in the middle and the end. (I'm not anti-rock or anything; I like David Bowie, but didn't think the songs in Labyrinth were appropriate, except the theme song.) Russ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jul 86 00:59:56 PDT From: lah%miro@berkeley.edu (Cmndr. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: That shoddy effect in "Labyrinth"... Unless I'm much mistaken, that was just one more of Henson's pulling out all the puppeteering stops for this film. I've seen similar stuff in specials on puppetry, including by Henson himself. What it is: bunraku, one of the oldest forms of puppetry in the world, invented in Japan where bunraku shows often told stories that appeared also in Noh or more often Kabuki theatre. Traditionally, this is done against a black background, by puppeteers wearing black. Evidently, Henson did it agains a blue background with blue-clad puppeteers, in order to use the "blue-screen" effect. I grant you, it was one of the less skillful effects, but the fire elementals were so charming I let it pass. In fact, the only thing I found off-putting about the film was Bowie's singing. Don't get me wrong, he's great as Bowie, but as the Goblin King he seemed somewhat out of character. Perhaps they put the songs in to keep him happy? Or maybe to make the movie more "Muppet Show" like? In any case, they were a bit distracting, except for the last number, in the Escher room (where the words actually had something to do with what was going on. Well, the masquerade was good too, come to think of it. The one that was definitely out of place was his first number with the goblins and the baby). I loved the crystal ball manipulations! Now if only I can get my stage- magician friend to teach me how... I'm hard pressed, though to say I liked this one better than "Dark Crystal". It lacks the pre-film-time background richness (I loved the book on the world and the mythology of DC) but compensates in little details as was mentioned in a previous posting. It is funny, but somehow less magical than DC. I think I like them equally well, for different reasons, and I like them both VERY much. Regards, Leigh Ann ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 86 09:52 PDT From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Big Trouble in Little China Big Trouble in Little China Despite the foolish looking commercials, this film is a thriller! I loved it. It keeps up the tone set by Indiana Jones in Raiders; that there are things going on that we don't understand, but, as Jack (Kurt Russel) Burton says, "What the hell, let's go." Mild spoilers follow: The flick is set in San Francisco's Chinatown. Jack Burton is a truck driver who just pulled in and is visiting his Chinese friend Wang (or something roughly approximating that). They go to pick up Wang's fiance at the airport where she gets lifted by the local Chinese gang. Jack stands up to them and gets knocked down. He's that way. Full of spirit, but faulty with his fists. Wang does most of the heroic fighting, which is excellent! Anyhow, they track the gang and the girl to Lo Pan (how do us honkies learn to spell this stuff?), the local importer and 2000 year old demon. He wants to use her in a ceremony to regain his youth and humanity. The fun starts when our heroes stumble into a fight between two gangs. Things are going wild as the kung fu action covers the alley. This is where the weird stuff starts as the three Storms appear out of the sky. Thunder and Wind slowly drop to the ground as the fighting stops and everyone stares. Lightning crashes and strikes the ground, dancing and twisting with a blue spark as the third Storm rides down the bolt to land next to the other two. Together, they clean up both gangs. Thus we are introduced to The Heavys. The action is non-stop, the mood is humorous, the monsters are real (and damn ugly!), the girls are beautiful, the bad guys are tough, the guns are few, the kung fu is fast and furious. Magic is plentiful and so is plain old guts. Heck, they even have the batpole. This movie is great. John Carpenter has made another hit. Kurt does an excellent job as the macho truck driver who is too stubborn to quit, Kim Catrell does a marvelous job as the information source, spunky fighter, love interest, captured heroine, and girl who gets tons of lipstick on Kurt's face just before he faces off the bad guy (boy, does he look foolish!). Four stars. Check this one out twice! Pardon me for the weird review, but if you see the flick you will understand that there is just too much stuff going on to even begin to describe it except as a play by play. Go see it instead. Jon ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jul 86 19:21:18 EDT From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: macross Soundtrack?? Does anyone know where I might find a copy of the soundtrack to Macross or to Minmei's songs. Macross is the first segment of Robotech. I am looking for the Japanese albums. Of course if there was an album made from Ulpio Minucci's Robotech music, I would be interested in that too. Any help would be appreciated. I tried STAR (Sound trac Album Retailers) but they said they had it 2 years ago but can't get it anymore. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance, Stephen Pearl ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jul 86 11:23:12 GMT From: kcl-cs!thornton@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC468) Subject: Re: Missing Star Trek episodes? (I am.) 'Miri' was shown once and then banned by the BBC. The three other episodes that were banned and never shown are: 'The Empath' (very good) 'Whom Gods Destroy' (ok ish) 'Platos Stepchildren' (good but silly in places). Apparently the BBC will never 'un-ban' these episodes. Some that should have been banned for entertainment reasons are [insert your least favourite episode here],Spocks Brain et al. Andy T. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Jul 86 0840-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #183 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 7 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 183 Today's Topics: Books - Wilson, Films - Books into Movies, Television - Max Headroom, Miscellaneous - Fanzines & Nanotechnology ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Friday, 4 Jul 1986 12:25:20-PDT From: mccutchen%pennsy.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (R. TERRY MCCUTCHEN From: 289-1428) Subject: F. Paul Wilson F. Paul Wilson has at least two "Horror" novels out. They are "The Keep" and "The Tomb". Tomb takes place in New York, involves an Indian (as in Visnu) monster and a "Fixer" (quite an interesting character). Keep takes place in Central Europe (Romania?) durring WWII and involves a group of German soldiers occupying a "keep" along with two ancient "Powers". I rather like both books. BTW, L. Neil Smith and F. Paul Wilson seem to have similar political views. Could someone comment on this? Terry McCutchen ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jul 86 15:46:17 GMT From: loral!dml@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis) Subject: Re: Books into movies 1. World of Ptavvs Larry Niven 2. The Stars My Destination Alfred Bester 3. Stardance Spider & Jeanne Robinson 4. Inferno Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle 5. Re-Birth John Wyndham 6. Brain Wave Poul Anderson 7. The Stars are the Styx Ted Sturgeon 8. The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever Stephen R. Donaldson (All 6 books -- but it would be about 14 hours long) 9. Gulf Robert A. Heinlein 10. Lost Legacy Robert A. Heinlein 11. Almost anything by Roger Zelazny Some of these would need special effects that would pale Star Wars. Others (Gulf, Re-Birth) would be much easier. If they were going to make "The Stars My Destination" they would have to follow the book WORD FOR WORD or else! Dave Lewis Loral Instrumentation San Diego {kontron|crash|sdcsvax!sdcc3|gould9}!loral!dml ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jul 86 02:31:43 GMT From: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu (Catherine Ariel Wolffe) Subject: Re: MAX HEADROOM The Max Headroom I have seen is a man in a prosthetic face appliance on a computer generated background. Max was shown on Cinemax as the host of a few shows (I think these are the films you are talking of), and as the vj for MaxTrax (Cinemax' video showcase). And now he is making Coke commercials. I guess that is truly American fame. Cathy Wolffe ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jul 86 06:21:57 GMT From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) Subject: Request For Fanzine Recommendations Can anyone recommend some good fiction-oriented (as opposed to news- or review-oriented) SF fanzines? My personal taste is for hard SF (all varieties: from Heinlein to Forward to Gibson), but I enjoy stories from any SF/fantasy genre when done well. I would prefer to hear about fanzines that are published semi-regularly, although I realize that most fanzines have difficulty keeping to a schedule. (A fanzine that accepted one of my stories is still working on an issue that was originally scheduled to be published in April of 1984...) Brian Yamauchi Carnegie-Mellon University Computer Science Department ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu BITNET: q110by04@cmccvc DECNET: by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 86 16:54:16 GMT From: tower@mit-prep.ARPA (Leonard H. Tower Jr.) Subject: "Engines of Creation" and Nanontechnology I have just finished reading "Engines of Creation" by K. Eric Drexler, published by Doubleday, New York, June, 1986. Drexler examines, from an engineering viewpoint, the likely advances that nanotechnology will bring in the next several decades. Nanotechnology is engineering on the molecular level with precise control of molecular structure. I have appended an introductory article written by the Nanotechnology Study Group at MIT, which briefly explains the technology and some of it's implications. "Engines of Creation" covers the topic with greater length and depth, as well as looking at the likely social implications and ways to control the uses to which the technology will be put. One of the more interesting is the use of Science Courts to resolve the facts and unknowns in a technological disagreement between experts. Good Reading, Len Nanotechnology: A Key Advance Foreseeable technological advances will enable us to build devices to complex, atomic specifications. This will make possible a nanotechnology that includes both nanomachines and nanoelectronics. As microtechnology involves micrometer-scale devices, so nanotechnology will involve nanometer-scale devices. These advances will change macroscopic technology as well, because all technology rests ultimately on our ability to arrange atoms to make hardware. The prospect of nanotechnology forces a reevaluation of our expectations regarding the next several decades. New dangers make foresight vitally important. This paper outlines some basic facts regarding the nature and consequences of nanotechnology. It is condensed, containing more assertions than explanations--its goal is not to provide a thorough technical discussion, but merely to describe a set of facts and make them plausible to readers with broad technical literacy. The Technology Nanotechnology is synonymous with advanced molecular technology. It includes molecular electronics and the so-called biochip. It may be seen as the culmination of progress in many fields. Microelectronic engineers construct ever-smaller devices, some only a thousand atoms wide. Chemists know a great deal about molecules, and they regularly design and build small molecular structures. Progress in both synthetic chemistry and microelectronics leads toward the construction of complex structures to atomic precision--that is, toward nanotechnology. Biologists study the molecular machinery of life; nanotechnology will provide them with greatly improved molecular tools and instruments. Through the molecular tools of pharmacology, physicians influence the molecular machinery of life. Nanotechnology will again provide tools of dramatically greater ability. Researchers in these fields are laying the foundations for nanotechnology. Biochemists are learning to design ever-larger molecular systems, and groups in Japan, at the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory, and elsewhere are pursuing work in molecular electronics. We can already see much of what this work will make possible, because physicists, chemists, and biochemists understand the laws that govern molecular systems. The behavior of these systems is often amenable to computer simulation, using ordinary mechanics to describe molecular motions and quantum mechanics to describe molecular bonding. The challenge of nanotechnology is one of developing better physical and computational tools, not of developing new fundamental science. Nanomachines will be the key to nanotechnology. Because molecules are objects with size, shape, mass, and stiffness, they can serve as moving parts in nanomachines. Well-known biochemical systems--the rotary flagellar motor that propels bacteria, the actin-myosin system that powers muscle, and so forth--show that molecular machines exist and function. They prove (and calculations confirm) that thermal noise and quantum-mechanical effects do not prohibit machines with molecular-scale moving parts. Molecular machines can build molecular machines. Enzymes direct the swift assembly and disassembly of molecular structures. Ribosomes act as numerically-controlled machine tools, assembling molecular devices (in this case, protein molecules) under programmed control. They demonstrate that nanomachines can build specific molecular structures by bringing reactive molecules together in the right orientations and surroundings. Genetic engineers use DNA to program bacterial ribosomes to build natural (but foreign) proteins. The design of novel proteins is an active area of research. Eventually, we will learn to build proteins that, like those in the cell, perform a wide range of chemical and mechanical functions. We will then be able to build ribosome-like protein machines which will in turn enable us to build non-protein machines. Protein engineering thus offers one path to nanotechnology. Physicist Richard Feynman outlined an alternative path as early as 1959. By one path or another, we will eventually develop tools that enable us to assemble complex structures to atomic specifications. Such tools are called _molecular assemblers_, or simply _assemblers_. The development of assemblers will constitute a key breakthrough in technology. Some Applications Comparisons to known physical systems and straightforward design calculations indicate the feasibility of the following: Replicators: Assemblers, if supplied with materials and energy, will be able to build almost anything--including more assemblers and more systems for providing them with materials and energy. Cells demonstrate that systems of molecular machinery can replicate themselves. Replicating assemblers will be as cheap as bacteria. Single cells proliferate and cooperate to build redwoods and blue whales; properly programmed replicators will likewise be able to build large systems. Nanocomputers: If built with molecular components, the equivalent of a modern microprocessor will fit in roughly 1/1000 of a cubic micron. Megabytes of fast RAM and gigabytes of tape-like storage with sub-millisecond access times will fit within a cubic micron. The small size and low power dissipation of nanocomputers will make possible machines with massively parallel architectures. Cell repair machines: Molecular machines in cells sense, make, rearrange, and destroy cellular structures. During cell division, they build whole new cells. Advanced nanomachines will be able to do likewise. Since typical human cells have a volume of roughly 1,000 cubic microns, they hold room enough for cell repair machines directed by on-site nanocomputers and wielding an extensive set of molecular-scale sensors and tools. Cell repair machines will bring surgical control to the molecular scale, enabling physicians to repair tissues that are unable to repair themselves, and to reverse the molecular disorders that cause aging. Replicators will make cell repair machines inexpensive. Superstuff: The performance of systems depends on the pattern of atoms composing them. Assembler-built composites based on diamond fiber will have tens of times the strength-to-mass ratio of present structural metals, and excellent fracture toughness as well. Assembler-built screens, made from nearly-microscopic lens arrays, will display high-resolution, full-color, three-dimensional imagery. Assembler-built batteries with finely interleaved electrodes will have very low internal resistance and high power-to-mass ratios. This list could be extended almost indefinitely: assembler-built materials, components, and systems will advance virtually all fields of technology, making possible improved chairs, cars, spacecraft, and so forth. Superweapons: Superior hardware will have superior military potential. Replicating assemblers will permit swift construction of such hardware. Programmable replicators will make possible a more controlled and practical (and hence more threatening) form of "germ" warfare. This list, too, could be extended. Our Situation These prospects raise certain questions about nanotechnology and its effect on our future: Is nanotechnology good or bad? Nanotechnology raises obvious issues of life and death. Replicating assemblers will enable us to create material wealth of unprecedented quality and quantity; in much of the world, this is a life-and-death matter. More directly, cell repair machines will enable medicine to create and maintain health. Yet through the same capabilities that make these benefits possible, nanotechnology will also make possible new forms of warfare and oppression. Could it be stopped? Advances in fields as diverse as medicine, weaponry, and chemistry will (intentionally or not) move us along the path to nanotechnology. Military motivations will be strong, and the verification of limits on research will be virtually impossible. In a world of competing technological states, local actions and local laws cannot stop such a technology. In the absence of means for verification, international treaties likewise offer little hope. Thus, regardless of the balance of its benefits and risks, nanotechnology seems virtually inevitable. We can only guide advances, not stop them. When will it arrive? Present physical knowledge enables us to foresee some of what nanotechnology will (and will not) be able to accomplish, but estimates of when nanotechnology will arrive are far more speculative. Such estimates must reflect the possibility both of unanticipated shortcuts and of unanticipated delays. They must take account of obvious synergies, such as the application of expert-systems technology to computer-aided design, and the application of both to molecular engineering. Further, they must take account of research trends such as the commencement of ``full-scale research efforts'' on molecular electronics by NEC, Hitachi, Toshiba, Matsushita, Fujitsu, Sanyo-Denko, and Sharp. Finally, military interest in nanotechnology seems likely to eventually spawn an effort as urgent as the Manhattan Project. In light of these considerations, a plausible guess for the arrival date of molecular assemblers is twenty years, plus or minus ten. For some purposes (e.g., planning for medical care) it is safest to assume that nanotechnology will develop slowly. For other purposes (e.g. preparing for dangers) it is safest to assume that it will develop swiftly. What is to be done? The prospect of nanotechnology raises a host of policy questions. Depending on the preparations we make, nanotechnology could bring either great benefits or a final disaster. Because nanotechnology will build on known principles of science and engineering, a measure of foresight seems possible. Because advances in nanotechnology seem easier to steer than to stop, a measure of foresight seems necessary. The study of nanotechnology crosses disciplinary boundaries. To judge the possibilities requires engineering thought guided by knowledge in such fields as physics, chemistry, biology, and materials science. The basic technical facts in turn raise issues of social, political, and strategic importance. It seems that past expectations must be revised, perhaps drastically. We need to know more about nanotechnology and its implications, and we need to have that knowledge spread widely. The growth of knowledge is best served by critical discussion and by presentation of the results. Further Reading: Richard Feynman, ``There's Plenty of Room at the Bottom.'' In Miniaturization, H. D. Gilbert, ed. Reinhold, New York, pp 282-296 (1961). K. Eric Drexler, ``Molecular Engineering: an approach to the development of general capabilities for molecular manipulation.'' Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (USA), 78:5275-5278 (September 1981). Molecular Electronic Devices, Forrest L. Carter, ed. Marcel Dekker, New York (1982). K. Eric Drexler, ``When molecules will do the work.'' Smithsonian, pp 145-155 (November 1982). Kevin Ulmer, ``Protein Engineering.'' Science, 219:666-671 (11 February 1983). Jonathan B. Tucker, ``Biochips: can molecules compute?'' High Technology, pp 36-47 (February 1984). K. Eric Drexler, ``Engines of Creation.'' Doubleday, New York, June, 1986. Len Tower UUCP: {}!mit-eddie!mit-prep!tower INTERNET: tower@prep.ai.mit.edu ORGANIZATION: Project GNU, Free Software Foundation, 1000 Mass. Ave., Cambridge, MA 02138, USA +1 (617) 876-3296 HOME: 36 Porter Street, Somerville, MA 02143, USA +1 (617) 623-7739 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Jul 86 0845-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #184 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 7 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 184 Today's Topics: Books - Gibson (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 4 Jul 86 02:08:04 -0100 From: Jeff Dalton Subject: Neuromantic in NME Cc: aiva.ed.ac.uk!rhr@topaz.rutgers.edu, Cc: aiva.ed.ac.uk!richard@topaz.rutgers.edu There's an article on William Gibson in the 5 July 1986 NME (New Musical Express). I'll give some of the Gibson quotes and leave out most (all?) the NME bits. "I'm not interested in creating universes that are born out of a sort of gaming process whereby you take the world as it exists today and make a future and say THIS IS TRULY PROBABLE... I approach the thing as being a wonderful way to synthesise images out of pop culture that would turn me on. I try to keep the rest germane to what science fiction has *purported* to be about, but mainly I'm interested in images, and having some kind of rationale for having them running around. "I come from a very tiny town, a backwater called Wytheville, Virginia. It's like *nowhere*, 2000 people and nothing to go on. So my initial experience of Los Angeles, which I visited when I was 16, was like going to another planet. I went into benevolent culture shock [...] but it left me with the feeling that I wasn't able to absorb it or digest it: I was suffering from information sickness. [...] As I got older I realized that a lot of people around me were suffering from that constantly, so science fiction becomes a nice way out into a simpler world and you can tell yourself that it's something that might really happen. So what I've consciously tried to do is present the aspects of the present that I find disturbing in a context that allows the reader to look at them without being frightened. [...] If reality is getting too frightening, then read this bit of science fiction, and if it's a good bit of science fiction then it will give you a handle on the reality you're actually living in." [...] "Neuromancer is going to be translated in Japan this year [...] that will be the most *bizarre* experience since I cobbled the thing up from whole cloth as in fact I did the whole novel. "All of those street names in Chiba City are from a Japan Air Lines calendar which someone had given me for Christmas which had bits of pottery on it for each month, so I take the name of a particular pottery period and make that a street name. For a Japanese reader it'll be like 'they ran down Chippendale Street and into Tudor Square...' "It really delights me when people accept that as a detailed extrapolation of the future of Japan. Writing books like that is like if you want to show a butcher's shop you put a fish *here* and a crumpled piece of brown paper *there*. You don't *build* the butcher's shop: that would be too literal. The reader provides the links." [...] "It's only about three weeks ago that I first physically touched a computer. Both my books were written on ancient manual typewriters: I've never even used an electric typewriter. I thought computers were going to be a lot sexier than they actually turned out to be. If I'd had one and known about disk drives I might never have written Neuromancer. I bought this little Apple and took it home and I thought I was going to have this pristine technological artifact, but I pressed the button and it made this noise like a farting toaster. I realized that it had this Victorian element in it that my imagination had never had to come to terms with. It made it less ominous and more cuddly because you knew its little drive could break; it's like a tape recorder. "In fact, it did break: the *head* *crashed*. If I had known that phrase it would've been in Neuromancer. I was able to do it because I thought the language was so lovely; there's real poetry to computer language, and it suggested things to me, so I treated it as poetry and expanded it. But I did show it to computer people before it was published, and there were a few things that had to be changed for reasons that I still don't understand. It'd probably be better for me commercially if I went around pretending to be a super computer buff. That part of it actually amazed me more than winning the prizes or the books selling well: that the computer people were completely taken in..." [end of extracts] Rather strange, in some ways. Creating a *butcher's* shop by putting *fish* around, and a good translator could always fix the quaint street names -- go for the right effect, if that's what's needed. (I've always wondered about Stanislaw Lem's translators. Hard to believe the Cyberiad poem where every word must begin with "S", &c ("... she scissored short...") had the same constraints in Polish.) And, well, computer people, are we taken in? Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 86 09:35:14 GMT From: proper!carl@caip.rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg) Subject: Re: Cyberspace From: Jeff Dalton >All I'm saying is that I'm not sure that cyberspace *would* look >like that. I think it would be stranger, but all I really have is >questions, not answers. > >Think about moving through a visual representation of a computer >network. Would it be Euclidean 3-space or would it have other >properties? Given that we tend to think in terms of three-dimensional space, it would feed it to us in what we are most familiar with. >Would it be possible for it the be Euclidean 3-space? How quickly >could you change your point of view? It would probably be very similar to how you perceive things today, much like going through the business district of San Francisco in a convertible: these neat, glowing structures towering around you, though more scattered than a business district. (Unless there were several machines per exchange in the telephone service.) >How quickly would the network change? (Remember that computers are >much faster than humans at some things...) Well, every time someone put a new machine on, a new structure would appear. (Does this remind anyone of Marion Zimmer Bradley's "overworld"?) If you make your computer bigger, then the representation would be larger. If it was all under the same security system, it would appear to be behind the same wall. If they all belong to the same company, they would be the same colour (as identification to us, perhaps some sort of "writing" in there). >What would breaking into a database with the aid of an "icebreaker" >look like? Probably like dissolving a wall. You would have some sort of path representing where you plugged in (I don't agree with finding yourself in the same place starting no matter where you plug in- it would be more like appearing within your own telephone exchange), leading to you, perhaps masked in case you're worried about tracing; your representation of self, perhaps a disembodied viewpoint, perhaps a pair of glowing gloves hovering over a duplicate of your deck (in case you haven't got it memorised); then proximity to the database represented by distance, and the wall itself opening up to let you into the information system. >In Neuromancer, what does moving up mean? Does it make sense to >organize things that way? Moving up, I suppose, means getting closer to something. I can't remember the specific context, but I would guess it's what you do to move around in the matrix. Carl Greenberg ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 86 22:08:18 GMT From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Cyberspace desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes: >From: Jeff Dalton >>Think about moving through a visual representation of a computer >>network. Would it be Euclidean 3-space or would it have other >>properties? Would it be possible for it the be Euclidean 3-space? >>... Does it make sense to organize things that way? > > I think it *does* make sense to organize things in that way, >because I think that is the only representation that the human >brain is able to handle. Not really. The brain develops certain areas to help process visual info but if the optic nerve is inoperative (as with some blind people) those centers don't develop the same way. Ideally, a cyberspace would be presented through a customizer-input. The incoming information would be routed to whatever sensory package the operator had trained and adapted to that form of input. Clearly in the Neuromantic world the medical technology is capable of handling at least partial optic nerve damage, and is capable of direct-brain stimulus. So, there is no reason why they shouldn't develop an entirely new sensory package to handle cyber-inputs. How Gibson chooses to translate this into his writing, well, that will doubtless be limited to the senses his audience is likely to have. So we don't get discussions of the hot, musty taste of blue Ice, or the swimming vertigo of crossing net-nodes, nor the sticky, sour sensation of moving across an encoded channel. >"Would it be possible for it to be anything else?" How can you >present visual information to the brain so that it is *not* >representing a 3-D space? I don't even think it is possible. Um, yes, it is possible; I am doing so right now. This CRT is not a 3-space and you are discarding all but a trace of the 3-d info that you are getting from the background as you read. Also, unless trained at an early age, the brain won't interpret photos, drawings, and so forth, as 2-d renderings of 3-space objects. It will see strange, blotchy patterns. This was demonstrated with Kalahari Bushmen in the 60's. Further, if you WANT to eliminate 3-d info, eliminate (cover) one eye. Focal information isn't normally enough to discern how far away something is and without the convergence (inward turning of the eyes to focus) info from the other eye the focal distance info is too weak to tell. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 86 16:58:43 GMT From: ihuxp!chrz@caip.rutgers.edu (Chrzanowski) Subject: Do you believe in cyberspace ? howard@utastro.UUCP (Howard Coleman) writes: > well, do we fault H. G. Wells because the Apollo astronauts were > not shot from a cannon? No, we praise him for getting the general > idea correct; we recognize that he had no way of even guessing at > the technological details! My impression was that Gibson does make a (largely) successful effort at being plausible. I think it was Jules Verne who shot his astronauts from a cannon -- something that was clearly not plausible at the time the story was written (the length of the gun tube was specified, and the acceleration would have turned the astros into blood jelly). I tend to interpret lack of plausibility as an author's lack of respect for the reader's intelligence, and quit the book/movie/TV show immediately. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 86 16:20:58 PDT (Sunday) From: WLindstrom.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Cyberspace Cc: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU > I think it *does* make sense to organize things in that way, >because I think that is the only representation that the human >brain is able to handle. Assuming that you are feeding in >information in a way that the brain is to interpret as "visual" >information (leaving aside for the moment the question of how this >is done), you have to face the fact that the brain is set up to >analyze that visual information as an image of a 3-D space. > You say, "Would it be possible for it to be Euclidean 3-space?" >I say, "Would it be possible for it to be anything else?" How can >you present visual information to the brain so that it is *not* >representing a 3-D space? I don't even think it is possible. Why limit yourself to 3-space? The brain seems like an awfully flexible processor. It's visual input has always been stereo, 2D images of (what appears to be) a 3D world, but do you think that, given higher dimensional images of a high dimentional world as input, the brain would be unable to learn to process this new input? I think that it would be able to adapt. I speculate that it would be *easier* for the brain to manipulate information as abstracted 3-D objects, but perhaps it would be more *useful* to manipulate information as abstracted higher-D objects, and the price of learning this new skill would be worthwhile. William Lindstrom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 86 14:01:24 PDT From: stever@vlsi.caltech.edu (Steve Rabin ) Subject: Dimension of Cyberspace Um, I think that visual information is in the form of a 2-D perspective projection of 3-D information. The way people get depth cues is by moving the head and noticing that near things slide with respect to far things. (stereo only works up to a few feet). The brain is NOT set up to process 3-D information directly. Processing 3-D information directly requires an advanced degree in physics. Steve ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 86 16:18:22 GMT From: fortune!stirling@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick Stirling) Subject: Re: Do you believe in cyberspace ? Thanks very much for replying! Indeed I do make the assertion that speech has some inherent advantage that makes up for 'its low bandwidth' - speech actually has a rather high bandwidth. If you use an algorithm to compress speech you can lose almost all of its information content. There is a lot more to speech that its 'dictionary' content. This extra information (rhythm, inter word pauses, tonal content etc., would not be understood by a machine (at least with current technology). In fact I would say that the 'literal' content of speech is its least informative bit (and is actually misleading sometimes). Even written text enjoys some of these factors - careful use of English can greatly alter vary the meaning between two apparently similar sentences. Of course I'm actually agreeing with you that it would be difficult at best to control a device with speech! I just read 'Neuromancer' over the weekend - not bad - and I like the idea of cyberspace. Who cares if it's feasible or not, it's a great idea and this IS SF! I don't at all reject the notion of analog computer interfaces - sorry if I sounded as if I did. patrick {ihnp4, hplabs, amdcad, ucbvax!dual}!fortune!stirling ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jul 86 14:53:16 GMT From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Dimension of Cyberspace From: stever@vlsi.caltech.edu (Steve Rabin ) >Um, I think that visual information is in the form of a 2-D >perspective projection of 3-D information. The way people get >depth cues is by moving the head and noticing that near things >slide with respect to far things. (stereo only works up to a few >feet). The brain is NOT set up to process 3-D information >directly. Processing 3-D information directly requires an advanced >degree in physics. Oh, don't let's be silly, okay? We all process in 3-D and we do it all the time, without needing to use head-motion or convergence cues. Sitting here at my terminal, I close my eyes. I unerringly reach for my coffee cup, take a sip, put it back; I reach with my left hand to adjust the volume on my walkman-clone. And it isn't just remembered visual cues because people who are blind from birth handle that sort of thing just find -- probably better than I. In fact, I question whether even 3-space is a limit: in Davis & Hersch's book *The Mathematical Experience,* they describe using the 4-D display thing at Brown. It displays a 2-D projection of a 3-D slice of a 4-space cube. After they had played around with it for a while, they suddenly "grasped" 4-space, and developed a sort of 4-D "intuition" similar to our common 3-D. My suspicion is that we can handle any kind of model once we learn to use the model. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Jul 86 0857-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #185 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 7 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 185 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Jul 86 23:54:17 -0300 From: Thomas Ungar Subject: Re: Of Rings Even if there is a 21th Ring, as some people in this newsgroup imply, this is the Ring worn by Frodo, since the two lines written on it (cf. Shadows of the Past in LoTR #1) are the "One Ring to Rule Them All". Thus, if there were a master Ring and a meta-master Ring, the Ring worn by Frodo is the meta-master Ring. Ady Wiernik ady@taurus.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jul 86 14:19:40 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Rings AGAIN?! leonard@tekecs.UUCP (Leonard Botleman) writes: >allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >>Celebrimbor was powerful, but not that much so, I think. Remember >>that he was only and Elf; Sauron is a Maia. > >Yes, but remember that Celebrimbor's grandfather, Feanor, was "only >an Elf", and yet he made the Silmarils and the Pilantiri, which >were, as Gandalf said, beyond the skill of Sauron to make. I think that the relationship between capabilities and Intrinsic Nature in the magic of Middle Earth shows up here. Since magic flows from the soul, what can be done by any entity is determined by its inner nature. Feanor had within his soul a fierce creative fire enabling him to make many things, with the help of the Valar. Certainly the light of the Silmarilli came from the work of the Valar in the making of the Two Trees, Feanor "only" captured it in crystal. Sauron, being who he is, interested mainly in domination, can not create, only control. This does not make Feanor more powerful than Sauron, only different. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jul 86 14:24:23 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Moral Choice in LOTR pete@stc.UUCP (Peter Kendell) writes: >It always struck me as a flaw in the book that all the characters >or groups except one get the opportunity to make the choice between >Good and Evil. > >The missing group is the Orcs. > >Is this because they were Sauron's creation and hence wholly evil? >It still seems wrong, though, that they are given no chance to >repent, or even to choose. Perhaps it is because they have already chosen! Since Orcs are most likely corrupted Elves, one could say that in allowing themselves to become so ensnared they had made thier choice. But what of those born/spawned later, after the original corruption? I do not know, perhaps they, like the Elves they are derived from, are reincarnated. Perhaps some of them are even the reincarnation of Elves who fell under Morgoths domination after the original corruption of the Orcs. Of course this is all just speculation. Anyone else care to comment? Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jul 86 14:51:21 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: The One Ring milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes: >I definitely misremembered the sequence of the creation of the >Rings. Your revised sequence is a lot closer. A minor point I >might debate is that it appears the idea of Rings originated with >"Annatar", proposed as a means of making Eriador as great as >Beleriand had been, and suggesting that Gil-Galad and Elrond would >not talk to him because they didn't rivals to the glories of their >lands. It seems the idea of being able to build and preserve that >which they loved as sufficient bait for them. I believe that the Elves had already started to work at making magic rings *before* Sauron came to them, but these were the so-called lesser rings, *not* the Rings of Power. I certainly agree that it was only with Sauron's help and connivance that they were able to make the Rings of Power, and the idea for such rings probably did originate with Sauron. Of the Rings of Power only the Three, and *perhaps* *one* of the Seven, were free from Sauron's touch. >Silmarillion states that when the Elves learned of Sauron's >betrayal and rejected him, in his anger at the failure of his >scheme (the hoped-for conquest of the all the Elven rings), he came >in force and demanded the Rings, saying they would never have been >forged but for him. Though the Three were hidden, eventually he >was able to seize all the others. Ah, yes, I had forgotten that! He got the 16(or 15) other Rings of Power *after* he made the One by force of conquest! That explains alot. >Whether from anybody else's viewpoint they were partially >successful, Sauron had intended them as "hooks", to enslave the >Dwarves, which they didn't do at all. It was for this reason that >he wanted to recall all of them (I read this explicitly somewhere, >but I just can't remember where right now -- possibly one of LotR's >appendices). Oh, I agree, they did not do what he really wanted them to do. He certainly was very upset about the whole matter. I was just trying to point out that they may have had more effect than many readers assume. >As far as I know, the Dwarves were always estranged from others, to >one degree or another. They never had, for instance, the immediate >friendship that arose between Men and Elves. Their languages and >customs were kept very much to themselves. But it seems to me >that, in the case of the house of Durin at least, the Rings >couldn't have increased it that much, or the co-operation with the >Elven smiths and the openness of Khazad-Dum would never have >occurred. Mind you, this was largely *before* and during the forging of the Rings! Certainly it was before the distribution of the Seven to the Dwarves. By the time the Seven were well established the friendship between Khazad-Dum and Eregion was long past. It had altered to the deep suspicion seen between the Elves of Lorien and the Dwarves, even the Dwarves of the House of Durin, as seen in the LotR. In fact, in the light of this friendship between the House of Durin and the Mirdain during the forging of the Rings, it is interesting to note the tradition that the Ring of Durin was given to them by the Elves *not* Sauron! >Sauron was *not* completely successful in recalling the Seven: he >wanted them all back, not just out of the Dwarves' hands. I read, >though I can't remember where, that he recovered three of them. >The others were consumed by dragons, including the great Ancalagon >the Black. And I do *not* think the dragons were controlled by >Sauron, though he would have been quick to take advantage of them, >had the situation arisen. As far as I know they were free agents, >utterly selfish, serving no-one. Sauron could hardly have been >pleased at the loss of four of the most powerful Rings, when they >might still have become great weapons in his hands. I think the Dragons were more under Sauron's control than you realize, even if it was subtle, indirect control. Certainly the words of Gandalf to the Hobbits in Minas Tirith indicate that *he* thought Sauron was in charge of Smaug. It is my belief that Smaug's attack on the Lonely Mountain was instigated by Sauron in hopes of "liberating" the Ring of Durin. It failed in that purpose, and the Ring escaped the mountain. This is supported by Gandalf's statement that the misfortunes of the House of Durin were due in large part to the malice of Sauron and his lust for the Ring. Certainly the Desolation of Smaug was the greatest of these misfortunes! The way I see it is that Sauron would have *prefered* to regain the Seven, but given the choice between letting the Dwarves keep them and seeing them destroyed, he prefered the destruction. Besides, he had probably hoped that the Dragons would *collect* the Rings, not consume them. After all the greed and avarice of Dragons is legendary. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 86 00:31:16 -0100 From: Jeff Dalton Subject: The LOTR vs. other sources In this discussion of Rings, it has generally been assumed that reliable information about Middle Earth can be obtained by looking at sources outside the LOTR, such as the Silmarillion or the Unfinished Tales, and that the most reliable information can be obtained by asking Tolkien himself. This is a convenient point of view, since it gives us more material for discussion and makes its interpretation easier, but I feel that it is somewhat of an oversimplification. We do not normally consider tales, myths, legends, or even personal accounts such as those that formed the basis of the LOTR, to be completely accurate descriptions of past events; and yet, with the exception of those parts that are clearly metaphorical, such as the creation story, we do not apply these standards to Tolkien's work. One justification for this is that we are dealing with fiction and with a world created by an author. If his words are unreliable, how do we know anything? If we treat the tales of the Elder Days as we do most myths, we would have to decide that most of what they say cannot be interpreted literally. (I won't bother to go into the different schools of myth interpretation here; but they all agree that the true meaning is not the obvious literal one. If anyone can supply a structuralist analysis of the LOTR, though, I would be interested in reading it.) Or, suppose we treated the Silmarillion as we do the Illiad. There, we may accept that there was a Trojan War, but we don't then accept that actual gods played an important part. This argument is fine as far as it goes, and it does show that we cannot expect to apply our critical methods in the usual way; but it does not show that all of Tolkien's work should be treated equally or that these methods are completely irrelevant. Our primary source for everything involved in the War of the Ring is the LOTR. "The tale grew in the telling," we are told, and it is reasonable to suppose that as the story was "drawn irresistibly towards the older world" the older world itself was changed. The other books that describe the Elder Days more directly do not necessarily represent the same fictional world. (They may have different notional release numbers.) This is most clearly so for things like the Unfinished Tales; they were not finished, after all, much less given final revision. There is no reason to consider them all equally reliable, or even to say that they all have the same kind of reliability. Tolkien himself calls them "mythology and legends" [TFotR, Forward], and to some extent they must be treated as such. We lose as well as gain when we look into the Elder Days. We end up knowing more, but the way we experience the LOTR changes, and in some ways it becomes less effective; at least I find it so. In the LOTR, Tolkien's treatment of Higher things is subtle. "I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was *meant* to find the Ring, and *not* by its maker." This is the best that Gandalf can do, and after reading the LOTR we cannot do much more ourselves. Yet most recent messages on this subject have been much plainer, even if they did not always agree in all details. Clearly something has changed. Indeed, I would not be surprised if someone could now advance detailed reasons for Gandalf's reticence. Perhaps he was not permitted to say more, and we might even guess why. But it's difficult to do so just from the LOTR itself. Another example comes to mind. Someone recently described Bombadil as "a Valar who has gone to ground". Perhaps Tolkien too says as much. But this is more than Elrond tells us: "Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, oldest and fatherless." Here, Bombadil is just himself, sui generis. If we now classify him with the Valar, we impoverish the world. I feel that the LOTR is Tolkien's best work; some of the other stuff is just not to the same standard. In the LOTR, the Elder Days provide depth; through glimpses of things that were, we gain a sense of mystery and begin to feel the "changefulness of mortal lands". Everything gains in significance; Eregion is not just empty landscape, it is an embodiment of memory and loss: "deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone." The Silmarillion does not, in my view, quite live up to this promise. The creation story is particularly disappointing, but the main text is also less than it might have been, and certainly less than some of its real world equivalents. This is not to say that only the LOTR itself has value, or that we should drop the other works from our discussion. I did enjoy the Silmarillion, and I would be glad to learn something that would let me enjoy it more; I have enjoyed the discussion of Ring lore. But I don't think this is the only kind of discussion we can have. Comparative mythology, for example, can tell us as much, in its way, as the Silmarillion. The Mabinogian or the Tain, for example, are strange in a way that is largely missing from Tolkien, and this can in itself tell us something about Middle Earth. Moreover, we cannot neglect our own role. Middle Earth is not just what Tolkien gives us, but also what we bring to it. This is one reason why it is possible to find more in it on each rereading: the reader has changed. This is also one reason why I am uncomfortable with appeals to Tolkien as the ultimate authority. We should not suppose that every question has an answer and seek endlessly to find it. In the LOTR, much is unknown, even to the Wise. Someone has cited a personal communication from Tolkien to the effect that Sauron held the nine rings. Is this, then, the final answer? Suppose the text clearly said otherwise. Then we would know that Tolkien had made a mistake somewhere, but we would not know that the mistake was in the book. However, the LOTR does not answer this clearly. "The nine the Nazgul keep" -- so says Gandalf at the Council of Elrond, and ordinarily it would suffice. But earlier, in The Shadow of the Past, he tells Frodo "the Nine he has gathered to himself". Perhaps this meant metaphorically: he controls the wraiths that wear them, and they are therefore his; but when the Witch King dies, no ring remains. (What happens to his crown?) Because the book is unclear, the answer is also, despite what Tolkien says. (If you disagree, imagine that Tolkien said things that were clearly false on the basis of the text. He could, in our normal interpretation of free will, say such things. Would you then say the book must be incorrect, or just that Tolkien was inconsistent? The book can be wrong: it is certainly possible for it to contain mistakes; but in other cases, Tolkien is just another source, and we must employ the usual tools for dealing with such inconsistencies.) In sum, I would like to encourage two things. The first is to pay greater attention to the LOTR itself, while still considering the other works. The second is to to try for greater variety in our approach to Middle Earth. The messages I find most useful are those that suggest new ways of reading or that let me see things I've overlooked. Jeff ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Jul 86 0830-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #186 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 8 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 186 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Jul 86 10:41:07 GMT From: louis!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Woods) Subject: Re: Orcs ron@bonnie.UUCP (Ronald Zasadzinski) writes: >Some clarification on immortality and the death of men: For elves, >they are immortal, meaning they can only die by being killed with >force or can die from overwhelming grief. When they die, elves go >to the Halls of Mandos for some time, then are 'reborn' in their >children. Thus all elven 'spirits' walk Middle Earth until The >Great End. > >As for men, their fate is not as final as one may think. When >'Mortals' die, their spirits go to the lands west of Valinor and >wander there in shadow until The Great End. So the spirits of men >also survive until the End of the world, but do not regain physical >representation and are confined, unlike the immortal elves. In the Silmarillion it is pointed out that men's mortality is a gift to them from Illuvatar. They alone of the children of Illuvatar leave Arda before the Great End. When they die they may tarry of awhile on the Western shores of Valinor but they leave Arda and go beyond the knowledge of the Valar. That is why Luthien chose mortality, so she could go with Beren when he left Arda. >Just what does happen to Orcs? I don't know. If they are corrupted >and deformed elves, perhaps they too are reborn in their children. >On the other hand, they may have been so badly deformed that their >spirits were alo effected, and they do not get reborn. In this case >what happens? Do they too like men wander the lands west of Valinor >until the great end? Do they go as spirits to serve Melko? Or do >they just 'die' and disappear forever? That wouldn't be consistent >with the death of all other races however. Any explanations? I think the answer is nothing happens to them. Although it is believed that they are corrupted Elves they are NEVER referred to as the children of Illuvatar. It is only Illuvatar's children that seem to have a 'life after death' (remember that Dwarves are adopted children). I would say that Orcs are disinherited children and therefore do not inherit their birth-right (i.e immortality). They have become animals. Remember that the Elves did not attempt to uncorrupt the Orcs because they were long-lost cousins, but exterminate them because they were a mockery and a blasphemy. Mike Woods. UK JANET: mike@uk.ac.rl.vd UUCP: ..!mcvax!ukc!rlvd!mike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jul 86 19:23:22 -0800 From: Alastair Milne Subject: Re: Men and Sauron >. . . the Elves were shown the wonder of Valinor very soon after >they awoke, and for a time almost *all* the Elves lived in Valinor. My understanding from the Silmarillion is that in the Elves' Great Journey from Lake Cuivienen, where they first awoke, to Valinor, several groups dropped out along the way, preferring to live in the lands to which the journey had just brought them. The last such actually reached the sea, but did not board ship. So there are indeed many Elves who never saw Valinor. These include all the "modern" Sylvan Elves, who account for a fair part of the populations of Lorien and Mirkwood. It was Sylvan Elves who sang silly songs at Thorin and Company in The Hobbit. Unlike those went to Valinor, they have no great longing for the sea, but they also never gained the nobility and love of beauty acquired by those the Valar taught, and were more inclined to silliness and paranoid suspicion of others (remember the guards in Thranduil's kingdom, in The Hobbit). >So, when Men awoke, the Valar learned of it only after Melkor had >planted the seeds of trouble in them. (For example: when the Elves >awoke, the night was beautiful with starlight and nature in all its >glory. Man awoke to night also... night made fearful by Melkor and >his servants. Men were also convinced by Melkor's emissaries that >the Valar were in fact horribly evil beings. I was not really serious about resenting Mens' greater susceptibility. I should have put a smile with that remark, but I didn't think of it. My impression is that you are making the case stronger than it is. As I recall, the Elves were there when Men awoke (or shortly after), even though the Valar weren't, and Elves and Men became friends almost immmediately. In fact, possibly the first grief Elves ever encountered was that a Man would wither and die after a scant century or two, of no reason but age, and the Elves (not understanding Illuvatar's gift to his children) felt this a terrible thing to happen to their friends. So I'm sure that Melkor's influence was by no means the only one, that Men learned many joys from the Elves (and received a truer account of the Valar), and that for both, the night held both horrors and beauties. I will, of course, re-check the Silmarillion, since I haven't read this section in a long time, and may remember it less well than I think. > Makes you wish Melkor had been banished long before Men had > arisen. Virtually everthing about Melkor makes me wish that. In fact, I wish he had chosen somewhere else entirely for his gentle attentions than Middle Earth. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jul 86 20:40:48 -0800 From: Alastair Milne Subject: How much did Sauron control? > It may well be that during his period of disembodiment after the >fall of Numenor the Dragons became independent, and he may not have >fully re-established his dominion over them during the Watchful >Peace due to his need of secrecy, *but* that dominion was real. >This is made clear in the recently published accounts by Gandalf of >*why* he helped the Dwarves against Smaug. His comments make it >*very* clear that he anticipated Sauron using Smaug to totally >devastate the North. His final comment is something to the effect >that the companions might have returned from victory in the south >to devastation and ruin in the north, and that there might have >been no Queen in Gondor! This clearly indicates that Sauron could >in fact control the Dragons. Why do you choose the fall of Numenor, in particular? It seems unrelated to Morgoth's creatures. I know the section of "Unfinished Tales" you are referring to, and it doesn't appear to me to indicate any such thing. It *does* illustrate that Sauron was a campaigner who would take advantage of any existing obstacle to his enemies -- but I knew that already. What Gandalf seemed to mean was that the forces of the West would have had to split between Mordor and Erebor if Smaug were still there, or they would have had a large flank open to the dragon. This would have worked nicely to Sauron's advantage. But there is a considerable difference between taking advantage of something, and controlling it, and there is no solid indication, in this section or elsewhere that I know of, that Sauron actually had control. Smaug would have been a useful circumstance to Sauron in the North, just as Shelob was in Cirith Ungol. But the section says nothing stronger than that. Don't forget, in these passages, Gandalf, while considering the many points at which Middle Earth's future stood on a knife's edge, was indulging a lot of speculation about what could have happened had this or that turned out differently, a prime one being: "suppose Smaug had not been killed". And I don't see anything more solid than speculation about Sauron's relations with the dragons. FOR ALL WHO HAVEN'T READ THIS SECTION: It is in "Unfinished Tales", occurs in Minas Tirith, where the re-united Fellowship is staying until Aragorn's coronation, and many questions are being answered. It is a marvelous addendum to LotR, and I highly recommend it. > Sauron didn't gain dominion over the last remaining Balrog >because they were essentially *equal*, both being Maiar. Dragons, >however, were more like the Trolls and Orcs, that is they were real >biological beings *bred* by Morgoth, and thus subject to Sauron. Excuse me? 1. The self styled "Lord of all Earth", whose power covered all Mordor and many lands to its south and east, as well as infiltrating north and west, was far superior to one Balrog, whose influence was essentially restricted to Moria, and who was eventually destroyed in personal combat by Gandalf, before the latter's rebirth. The fact that both were Maiar certainly doesn't necessitate their having similar power. Saruman was also a Maia, and he died of a couple of hobbits' arrows, which Balrog and Sauron might never even have noticed. It seems to me the Maiar were a widely divergent class of beings, of very differing powers and potentials. 2. Why do you suggest that Morgoth's having bred something gave Sauron automatic hold over it? Sauron was furthering his own ends, not venerating Morgoth's; nor was Morgoth a "doting father", preparing a strong inheritence for his "protege". Of the things that escaped Thangorodrim, Sauron apparently gathered up what he would, ignoring others -- perhaps choosing those that were both easily dominated and numerous, considering the more powerful and rare (e.g. Shelob, any of her family, dragons, Balrogs, and perhaps others) to require too much investment for too small a return, or maybe to be too greedy. While I by no means wish to minimise the incredible power that Sauron seems to have held, it doesn't follow that every selfish or evil creature of power in Middle Earth was under his sway. Even the Orcs of the more northern dens of the Misty Mountains seem to have held some independence, regardless of their origins, and we know that Orcs under Saruman attacked Orcs of Sauron's, even with a common enemy hot on their heels. And we know that Shelob, for instance, was tolerated without being dominated, because she was useful, and even sometimes amusing. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jul 86 15:36:45 GMT From: louis!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Woods) Subject: Re: The One Ring From: Alastair Milne >As far as I know, the Dwarves were always estranged from others, to >one degree or another. They never had, for instance, the immediate >friendship that arose between Men and Elves. Their languages and >customs were kept very much to themselves. But it seems to me >that, in the case of the house of Durin at least, the Rings >couldn't have increased it that much, or the co-operation with the >Elven smiths and the openness of Khazad-Dum would never have >occurred. I can't think offhand where they brought great harm to >Sauron's enemies -- I think they brought more harm to the Orcs -- >remember the vicious war over Moria. Though it is true enough that >the Dwarves became greedier and more secretive, and certainly some >of the consequences of that were to Sauron's advantage. Whereas I agree that the rings failed in their intended purpose, it would be wrong to say they did not do great harm. As there were seven rings (each of which was the start of a horde of treasure) I would guess there were at least seven cities of the Dwarves. By the time of the Hobbit there are only two (as far as we can gather) (the Blue Mountains and the Iron Hills). Certainly Erebor and Moria were destroyed because of the wealth horded there. A minor point. The cooperation between the Elven-smiths and the Dwarves of Moria ended with the destruction of Elven kingdom, before the ring was given to Durin. > And I do *not* think the dragons were controlled by Sauron, though >he would have been quick to take advantage of them, had the >situation arisen. As far as I know they were free agents, utterly >selfish, serving no-one. Agreed. It is interesting that the Dwarven kingdoms were largely destroyed by dragons. I think it may not have just been the treasure that lured them, the Dwarves (with their iron battle masks) were the only ones able to withstand the dragons' fire (See the Silmarillion). Mike Woods. UK JANET:mike@uk.ac.rl.vd UUCP: ..!mcvax!ukc!rlvd!mike ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 5 Jul 1986 18:50:34-PDT From: winalski%psw.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Paul S. Winalski) Subject: Tolkien: What is Ungoliant? Tolkien never says straight out exactly what Ungoliant is. On page 73 of the Silmarillion (1977 First American Printing by Houghton Mifflin), it says: ... and there in Avathar, secret and unknown, Ungoliant had made her abode. The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness... The same "but some have said" caveats are applied by Tolkien to the assertions that Gandalf was Olorin the Maia of Valinor. From the above passage, I conclude that Ungoliant was one of the Ainur (who else was around when Melkor first looked down upon the Kingdom of Manwe?). Since she clearly was not one of the Valar, that makes her a Maia. PSW ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jul 86 01:04:16 -0300 From: Ady Wiernik Subject: Ungoliant as a Maia Ungoliant is (probably) a Maiar, as can be deduced from her "introduction" in the Silmarilion, Ch. 8 (The Darkening of Valinor): "The Eldar knew not whence she come; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda,... and that in the begining she was one of those that he corrupted to his service". The first part implies she was one of the Ainu (which came from the outer darkness). She wasn't one of the Valar (as all of them are known and named), and thus was a Maia. Furthermore, it is known that the ones which Melkor corrupted where Maiar (cf. "For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour...", Valaquenta). However, nothing is certain, and I'm using only what I remember from the Silmarilion here. Ady Wiernik Tel-Aviv Univ. ady@taurus.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jul 86 22:28:06 GMT From: purdue!avr@caip.rutgers.edu (Andrew V. Royappa) Subject: Re: Tolkien for lesser enthusiasts hoffman@hdsvx1.UUCP writes: > I loved "The Hobbit." I was enthralled (several times) by "The > Lord of the Rings." But when I got to the "Silmarillon" (sp?), I > received a nasty shock. I just couldn't get into it; I only read > a dozen pages or so. > > My question: What else by Tolkien is more in the narrative style > of LotR? I did read some of the things in "The Tolkien Reader," > but they are more in the whimsical style of "The Hobbit." Does > "Silmarillon" get better later (it would have to get *much* > better!)? Are the "Unfinished Tales" worth looking into? Or is > LotR his single masterpiece? I had the same problem when I started reading the Silmarillion. However, I went back to it later and enjoyed it tremendously. I consider the Silmarillion more of a masterpiece than LotR, if that's possible. Believe me, the Silmarillion is worth getting into, once you get used to the shock of reading something that reads like a history book at times - there are incredibly beautiful stories in there. You need to keep a finger in the appendixes when reading it, to refer to the genealogies and word-meanings. Incidentally, for those who have already read the Silmarillion, I have this question: was Numenor supposed to be Atlantis ? Obvious similarities aside, Tolkien at one point (near the end of the Akallabeth) calls it "Atalante" (umlaut on the e). Andrew V. Royappa {ihnp4, purdue, pur-ee, decvax, ucbvax}!purdue!avr avr@Purdue (ARPA) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Jul 86 0836-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #187 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 9 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 187 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Bear & Dean & Lem & Saberhagen & Story Request, Films - Back to the Future & Rental Recommendations & Labyrinth & Books into Films, Television - Space: 1999 (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - SF Writers Group (2 msgs) & Orion (3 msgs) & Challenger 7 Fund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Jul 1986 09:08:55-EDT From: clapper@NADC Subject: Re: Piers Anthony I've seen two extreme viewpoints on Piers Anthony; I guess that calls for a middle-of-the-road opinion. Here goes... I've read a fair amount of Anthony's work. Some of it I found immensely enjoyable; some of it I found to be, in short, tripe. Since I have always been fond of puns and other forms of so-called "low" humor, I thoroughly enjoyed the Xanth series -- up to Night Mare. However, I literally suffered through Dragon on a Pedestal, and I refuse to read another Xanth novel. The Split Infinity trio was also quite enjoyable. However, having read two of the Bio of a Space Tyrant series, I can't work up enough interest to try a third. On the whole, I find Anthony to be a very uneven author. Some of his stuff is gripping. I had a hard time putting Battle Circle down. Some of his other work I find to be fatuous, ill-conceived and terminally cute. While I don't agree completely with either Antonio Leal's or Michael Steven Temkin's viewpoints (expressed recently in SF-Lovers), I enjoyed reading them. I only wish Mr. Temkin had been a little less insulting and obnoxious: It detracted from otherwise well-expressed commentary. Brian Clapper ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jul 86 20:46:57 GMT From: houligan!bseymour@caip.rutgers.edu (Burch Seymour) Subject: P Anthony, not trash!! >3 chapters of "Prostho Plus". Those two are the only P.A. books I >bought, and I am sorry, and promise not to do it again! >No wonder: as a writer, he is absolute trash, totally incompetent, >and I can only praise the editors who defended us from him. I will defend anyone's right to like or not like anything... BUT these comments are insane. First off I infer (correct me if I misunderstood) that the complainer has read only 2 Piers Anthony books, one of which was an anthology of early stuff and the other an early novel. Naturally this isn't his best stuff. As to the absolute trash part, say what? The Xanth books are, of late, routinely on the paperback bestseller lists. I really don't think that any book that is totally incompetent trash could hope to achieve that status. Piers's fantasy may not be in the same class as Tolkien, but so what! I've read at least 2 dozen of his books and found them to be very imaginative and mostly a good deal of fun to read. If you don't like him, fine, that's your right, just don't tell me that what he writes is incompetent trash, that's just bull. Burch Seymour Gould C.S.D. ....mcnc!rti-sel!gould!bseymour ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 86 8:42:03 CDT From: Rich Zellich To: eppstein@CU-GARFIELD.ARPA Subject: Re: When will these books come out? Well, a follow-on (don't know if it's the *conclusion* or not; didn't ask) to Greg Bear's "Infinity Concerto" is definitely coming. I asked Greg Bear about it this past weekend, but didn't bother to ask about a release date as I have found that authors rarely know that - publishers don't bother to tell them, and frequently change release dates anyway. It's done and in the publishers hands, though, as I understood his reply. Hope it's soon! Rich ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 8 Jul 1986 07:00:53-PDT From: mccutcheon%vino.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Charlie McCutcheon) Subject: Re: When will these books come out? Pamela Dean's book The Hidden Land is now out. I've seen a copy and intend to buy it when I get a chance. I knew Pamela when I worked with her husband, so I tend to follow her work! (Hope this isn't just the nth reply, I get SF Lovers in bunches forwarded to me, so this is delayed some) Charlie McCutcheon PS The Hidden Land does have an ending for the plot, whereas the Secret Country did not. (Very mild spoiler!) ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jul 86 21:46:43 GMT From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: I remember Solaris! * Minor Spoiler * >Also one about the Pentagon Building, (The Building, maybe), ... That's "Memoirs Found In A Bathtub." >...In any event, the one exception are certain chilling passages >from Solaris. ... In particular, I remember a scene in which the >main character's ex-wife or girlfriend/duplicate, is trying to >batter down the door of an escape pod or ship of some sort. I also >remember my skin crawling. ... Another chilling passage (for me) was the reading of the tape recorded by the pilot (?) driven mad by his view of a Solarian construct in the shape of a gigantic infant whose facial expressions and movements (as I recall it) were so alien they drove the observer mad. Very Lovecraftian, recalling the ending of "At The Mountains Of Madness." >Parts of Solaris, like much of Lem, drags on ad nauseum but it is >required reading for a Lem fan. There was a movie made of the book, >although I never saw it and I don't think it was widely distributed >in the U.S., it would have to be worth seeing if at all possible. >Does anyone know anything of its availibility? It plays from time to time at 'art' theatres around the country. It's VERY long, but has some deeply affecting scenes that aren't in the book (in one, two people embrace in a very 19th-century room as gravity in the Station is cut off and they and a candelabra float about the room in zero-G: it was like certain paintings by Marc Chagall in effect). Also, the ending scene is powerful but I won't commit an unforgiveable spoiler by giving it away. If you like Lem, you should see the movie. If you don't like Lem or movies that drag on, you'll probably be bored. By the way, the scene in which the main character's 'wife' (can't remember names) drinks LOX is also very nicely done. Cheers, Bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 86 08:41 ??? From: Cacophony Subject: Berserker Chronology? A friend asked me a question which I am embarassingly unable to answer. What is the proper chronology of the Berserker series? Thanks. John Mellby, Texas Instruments JMellby%ti-eg@CSNET-Relay ------------------------------ Date: Mon 7 Jul 86 12:17:42-CDT From: David Gadbois Subject: Odd story request I am looking for a science fiction story to quote in a science article. The article is going to be about chlorophyll and photosynthesis, and I would like to find a passage that describes a planet in another solar system that has plants which are not green but still have a metabolism which is similar to that of terrestrial vegetation. This would come about on a planet whose sun is either hotter or cooler than Sol. (One would expect to find blue photosynthetic plants on a planet circling a hot star, etc.) I know this is a pretty specific request, but I sure that there is some story out there which has what I am looking for and that someone out there has read it. Thanks in advance, David Gadbois cgs.gadbois@R20.utexas.edu US mail: 4300 Avenue C Austin, Texas, 78751 ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jul 86 03:36:16 GMT From: ethos!jay@caip.rutgers.edu (Jay Denebeim) Subject: Back to the Future I saw Amblin's _Back_to_the_Future_ again tonight. A quick comment that it looses nothing being watched on a television, still magic. I did notice something new though. It said "To be continued" before the ending credits. Perhaps I'm on drugs, but it didn't say that in the theaters did it? Does anyone have more info on BTTF II? Does it exist? Or was I just dreaming the whole thing. Jay Denebeim {seismo,decvax,ihnp4}!mcnc!rti-sel!ethos!jay Deep Thought, ZNode #42 300/1200/2400 919-471-6436 ------------------------------ Date: 7 July 1986 13:31:35 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Carlo N. Samson ) Subject: Movie Recommendations Can anyone out there recommend some sci-fi/fantasy movies worth renting from the local video store? I can't stand renting a movie that looks good on the shelf, only to watch it later and find out that its boring trash. (An example: "Godzilla 1985"). Carlo Samson u09862@uicvm ------------------------------ Date: 08 July 86 01:06 EDT From: UUAJ%CORNELLA.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA Subject: RE: Labyrinth In SF-Lovers V11, #180, J. Peter Alfke writes: >I must disagree with the person who recently posted a glowing >review of the new film "Labyrinth" --- I absolutely hated it, and >would have walked out 20 minutes into it had I not driven others to >the theater. Thank God, someone with sense in their head wrote intelligibly about why this film was so bad. I find it difficult to believe that the posters Mr. Alfke was referring to could still watch the thing when the first of the music videos began, unless they were die-hard David Bowie fans (I too was a driver for others and trapped at the theater). The film is nothing except a complete waste of some brilliant technical work, and if anyone out there really wants to see said effects, they are advised to wait until they can rent a VCR edition of the thing. (By the way, I disagree with Mr. Alfke about "Time Bandits", although the rest of his points are well-taken.) Artie Samplaski Bitnet: UUAJ@CORNELLA Internet: UUAJ@CORNELLA.CORNELL.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jul 86 17:26:32 GMT From: frog!john@caip.rutgers.edu (John Woods, Software) Subject: Re: Books into movies 12. Almost everything by Roger Zelazny 13. The REAL 'Bladerunner' (but I guess it would have to be called "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep"... John Woods Charles River Data Systems, Framingham MA, (617) 626-1101 ...!decvax!frog!john ...!mit-eddie!jfw jfw%mit-ccc@MIT-XX.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jul 86 09:52:34 GMT From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin) Subject: Re: SPACE 1999 on tape! thornton@kcl-cs.UUCP (znac468) writes: > The budget certainly wasn't low, it was the most expensive tv >program ever produced up till that time.. It might be true that it was the most expensive tv programme produced at that time, but it was still forced to work with a low budget for an sf programme. I have read several books on tv sf that all praise the show for doing so well on a low budget! Just as a side issue - how many people where stationed on Moonbase Alpha when the Moon left Earth orbit? It's always seemed to me that they have an inexhaustible supply of Eagles and pilots, considering the number of Eagles destroyed in battles or simply by crashing!!! ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jul 86 16:45:33 GMT From: rh@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Robert Hamilton) Subject: Re: SPACE 1999 on tape! I remember this show... In the only episode I saw the hero was using a ray-gun of some sort to blast open a door. What was he using as a ray-gun ?? I remember distinctly that it was a 6-inch reflecting telescope!!! nuff said about what must have been the silliest SF show ever. JANET: rh@uk.ac.paisley.cs EMAIL: rh@cs.paisley.ac.uk UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!paisley!rh Phone: +44 41 887 1241 Ext. 219 Post: Paisley College Department of Computing, High St. Paisley. Scotland. PA1 2BE ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jul 86 06:04:12 GMT From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) Subject: Any SF Writers Out There? Would there be any interest in setting up some sort of informal writers' group to exchange and critque stories? I think it would be useful to get reactions and constructive criticism from others who are familiar with the genre of SF. Showing a story to friends and family is usually good for the ego, but there is a limit to the usefulness of this procedure. In any case, I would be interested in hearing from any other writers of science fiction on the net, either published or unpublished (I currently fall into the latter category). Any advice, anecdotes, or random comments are welcome. By the way, does anyone know if Amazing is still the only major SF magazine to include individual comments along with their rejection notices? Or have they switched to the old "Thank you for your story, but it does not suit our needs for one of the 257 following reasons....." form letters that Analog and IASFM use? Brian Yamauchi Carnegie-Mellon University Computer Science Department ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu BITNET: q110by04@cmccvc DECNET: by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jul 86 05:38:52 GMT From: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu (Catherine Ariel Wolffe) Subject: Re: Any SF Writers Out There? This sound agreeable to me. My science fiction and fantasy work also falls into the latter group. And getting other people's ideas might improve my work quite a bit. Oh, and the rejection slips from IASFM include some individual comments. But that was when Shawna was there, so I don't know about the present slips. Cathy Wolffe ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jul 86 18:03:52 EDT From: SAROFF%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (MATTHEW G. SAROFF) Subject: What Orion Was....... Hi, A couple of people have been asking what the ORION propulsion project was. Here is a brief synopsis: 1) ORION was a theoretical way of nuclear propulsion in outer space. It worked by detonating small (Kiloton) nuclear warheads to push the ship through space. 2) All the numbers showed it work theoretically. 3) All research on ORION stopped when the test ban treaty went into effect. The ORION propulsion system constituted "open air" nuclear explosions. 4) If not for the treaty, It would probably not have been developed. A ship with HUNDREDS of nukes on board is too tempting as a military/terrorist target. Pleasant Dreams, Matthew Saroff ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jul 86 19:07:00 GMT From: aaj@hpfcrh Subject: Re: Orion propulsive devices The same principle (minus radiation) is used by Pournelle in "King David's Spaceship". Tony. ------------------------------ From: randvax!rohn@caip.rutgers.edu (Laurinda Rohn) Subject: Re: orion project, references to in sf literature Date: 7 Jul 86 16:36:20 GMT There's also a book by Poul Anderson called "Orion Shall Rise". I know it's out in a trade paperback, but I'm not sure if it's been published mass-market or not. I read it quite some time ago. I thought it was an interesting book, good but not superb. Lauri rohn@rand-unix.ARPA ..ihnp4!sdcrdcf!randvax!rohn ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jul 86 12:28:04 EDT (Monday) From: power.Wbst@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Challenger 7 Fund Someone recently posted a message about a Fund for a Challenger replacement. Excerpt: "I wish the American people could do something to demonstrate their support and enthusiasm for another Shuttle," he said. "Someone should start a fund or something, that the country could get behind, and and we could contribute and finance a new one." "Why don't you?" I asked. "Oh, I couldn't do that," he replied. "People don't listen to me. I can't sell an idea or anything else." End of conversation. Except that last Sunday he turned up with a terrific pin on his lapel, with a space shuttle on it. He DID start it, and the Challenger 7 Fund has begun. This is a real grass roots deal, but for real, and the press releases are coming out next week. I would like to contribute to a Challenger replacement fund. Therefore I'ld like to know a few things: Who is your friend? Why is he qualified to run this fund raiser? (I don't want to spend money on a lost cause) What assurances do we have that this money is going to go where he says it is? Will he publish full cost accounting? What does NASA have to say about this? Jim ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Jul 86 0914-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #188 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 14 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 188 Today's Topics: Books - Bear & Busby & Clifton & McCaffrey & Piper (2 msgs) & Footfall & Funny SF, Films - Labyrinthe (2 msgs) & Books into Films (3 msgs), Music - SF Music, Miscellaneous - A Correction & SF Writers Group & The Orion Project ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 8 Jul 86 17:21:31 PDT From: Linda Wald Subject: sequel to The Infinity Concerto Greg Bear said at Westercon that The Serpent Mage (sequel to The Infinity Concerto) would be out by the end of the year (he actually named a month, but I don't remember it). It does, by the way, wrap things up and ends the series. Linda Wald math.linda@ucla-locus.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 86 15:36:49 PDT (Tuesday) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #182 From: Hallgren.osbunorth@Xerox.COM About Rissa Kergeulen: Yes, you do get the point of view of both Rissa and Bran Tregare. Busby wrote both their biographies, plus a volume about a supporting character and one after THE LONG VIEW. Does anyone know of other stories in this universe? If you look close the volume RISSA KERGUELEN contains YOUNG RISSA, RISSA AND TREGARE, and THE LONG VIEW. There is a sequel to this, THE ALIEN VIEW (I think) and a pre-queal, something M'TANDE, covering her life before she hooks up with Tregare. All very pleasent reading, especially if you like to anticipate how the author will handle the multilple viewpoints. But a bit disappointing when you anticipate whole new adventures. Three stars out of five. I prefer his ALL THESE EARTHS, a multi-dimensional universe story. Clark H. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 86 18:51:32 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: WHEN THEY COME FROM SPACE Is by Mark Clifton. Really satiric/pessimistic, rather than straight humor. NB lifton may not have been the only personnel manager to write SF, but he's the only person I've ever read to make a personnel manager the lead character (about various psi abilities (in deference to Campbell?)). ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jul 86 14:56:06 GMT From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: KILLASHANDRA by Anne McCaffrey (mild spoiler) Time: medium-range future (some hundreds of years from now) Place: planet Optheria, mainly. Introduction: Killashandra is a crystal singer, a person with perfect pitch, able and willing to seek much-needed crystal (of various kinds) on planet Ballybran. It's a love-hate relationship though; singers save enough money selling crystal to leave planet, but, for biological reasons, they always have to return. Killashandra has just excavated a decent load of crystal, not enough to get her very far off planet, but at least enough to take her away from Ballybran. But the head of her guild offers her a short-term job on planet Optheria, a planet mainly noted for its crystal-based musical organs. She's to take her load of crystals and install them in the main organ; on the side she's to try and find out why no Optherian has ever left the planet. Main storylines: Killashandra's adventures on Optheria, her investigation, and her relationship with a leading islander there. SF elements: advanced technology, galactic and planetary politics, minor biological changes in some humans (crystal singers). Critique: This book might be called "The Further Adventures of Killashandra Ree". It starts a few months after CRYSTAL SINGER ends. Killashandra comes across as a believable person, and the worlds seem quite real. The book is paced well enough. I had a bit of trouble believing that Killashandra would strike up the romantic relationship she did, but it's not that improbable, given the nature of her character. I didn't find any particular fault with the book, but I didn't find anything especially gripping or exciting either. It's a pleasant, mildly interesting read. I give it 3.0 stars (good, but I'll trade it in). Duane Morse ...!noao!mot!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 86 18:11:51 GMT From: ihlpf!wad@caip.rutgers.edu (Dawson) Subject: Re: Piper >I just finished Space Viking and Little Fuzzy and would wish to >know the titles of his others books... I don't know anything about Piper himself, however, I do know other books in the fuzzy series have been written by different authors. ie by Arduth Mayhar. I do remember reading other books not in that series by Piper which I found boring; their titles escape me. Debby Wallach ihnp4!ihlpf!wad ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 86 16:15:12 GMT From: osu-eddie!jac@caip.rutgers.edu (James Clausing) Subject: Re: Piper Part of the reason that others had to finish the Fuzzy stuff up was that Piper died (killed himself I believe) before the third one was published. It was finally found years later and published. I found the differences between Piper's version and (the name escapes me) version interesting. They didn't quite view that world (or the Fuzzies the same way). Jim Clausing CIS Department jac@ohio-state.CSNET Ohio State University jac@ohio-state.ARPA Columbus, OH 43210 jac@osu-eddie.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 86 20:09:32 GMT From: hadron!jsdy@caip.rutgers.edu (Joseph S. D. Yao) Subject: Re: Footfall Question. Early on, one of the people who spots the ship is a "chap named Tom Duff, a computer type" at Kitt Peak observatory. Considering the name-dropping in Footfall, might this be a reference to the Unix Graphics Tom Duff, of NYIT/Lucas/Bell Labs? Tom? Joe Yao hadron!jsdy@seismo.{CSS.GOV,ARPA,UUCP} jsdy@hadron.COM (not yet domainised) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 86 12:30 PST From: Kinsman David J <8440827%wwu.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA> Subject: Funny SF summary >...shouldn't all of these suggestions be sent as mail to the >requestor who, being a good soul, would then post a summary? I >mean I must have read 25 suggestions for Xanth and Myth stories. I've done just that. I'm not going to post them however, since they are rather large. However if you would like to see them I will glady send them to you. I have two versions, one is just a list of titles and authors and the other is the actual text from SFLD. Any updates, additions, corrections or whatever are more than welcome. David Kinsman Western Washington University Bellingham Washington 8440827%WWU@CSNET-RELAY ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 86 11:02 EST From: JimC@a Subject: Reply to J. Peter Alfke I must disagree with the pan that Alfke gives "Labyrinth"--not so much because he's totally wrong, but because his reasons are way off base. For one thing, it does nobody any good to start comparing imaginative works to critical theories that attempt to establish what's good and what's bad--even if the theorizer is Ursula LeGuin. What works is what works, and the final arbiter is the individual's taste, judgment and experience. Always remember: de gustibus non disputandum est. No doubt the movie has a lot of dumb things in it (ably pointed out by Mr. Alfke), but the audience I sat in enjoyed it immensely as did my own kids, who are keen fantasy fans and who were on the edges of their seats the whole time. What's very clear is that Mr. Alfke has filtered the movie through his own highly subjective aesthetic values, which he assumes everyone else has. As far as I can tell, the producers had one thing in mind and Mr. Alfke another. There's no question, at least for me, that the production was well done and involved a serious and strenuous creative effort by a number of talented people. Whether or not a movie has those classic hooks to the archetypes of the unconscious is not something that's going to be determined in the weeks and months following its release. I would agree that the film lacks the rich subtext of the best fantasy films, but it was quite cleverly done and did attempt to say something about the nature of fantasy and reality (although not to the extent one finds in "The Neverending Story"). In addition, it tried to work with irony and humor in a way not seen in most children's fantasy movies, which typically tend to take themselves much too seriously. I must also disagree with Alfke's opinion of the dialog, which I found at times quite lively, with almost the same wit one hears in the best scenes of "The Wizard of Oz." But there was also a lot of dreck, too, not to mention those dreadful music videos stuck in the middle. I'm not sure I would recommend this movie to adults, but it's certainly worth seeing if you're going to take kids. The special effects alone-- including the titles--are often wonderful, in the root meaning of that word. James Cortese ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 86 16:58:30 GMT From: udenva!showard@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Labyrinth CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU writes: >Also, I wasn't sure how appropriate a movie it was for kids. I was >seated right in front of a child who seemed upset at some scenes >such as [describes scenes, eliminated due to possible spoilage] >anyway, I got the impression there were some scenes parents in the >audience wished weren't there. But I don't know, I'm no child >psychologist. That's why the movie was rated PG. PG means "Parental Guidance Suggested" or, in other words, "Hey, there are things in this movie that might not be appropriate for children." The fact that most parents ignore this warning led to the ever-popular PG-13 rating, which means "Hey, there are things in this movie that might not be appropriate for children." Steve Howard {hplabs, seismo}!hao!udenva!showard or {boulder, cires, ucbvax!nbires, cisden}!udenva!showard ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1986 15:30 EST From: KEN PAPAI <ikjp400%INDYCMS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> Subject: Another vote for Piper: SF into movies If I were a director/producer and had the money to make films from appropriate pieces of science fiction I would consider: 1. Space Viking - H. Beam Piper This film could be done by using only two of the major planets involved in Piper's magnificent space opera. Could be a real winner! 2. The Plague Star - George R. R. Martin This would be loads of fun. Too bad Orson Welles isn't around anymore, he would be the perfect Haviland Tuf. 3. Rails Across the Galaxy - Andrew Offut A little humerous SF wouldn't hurt either. This would be a challenge for the special effects people. Ken Papai Indianapolis, IN ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 86 06:00:41 GMT From: palmer@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (David Palmer) Subject: Re: Books into movies There may never be another movie involving Roger Zelazny. The reason? If you ever saw the movie "Damnation Alley" you would understand. This was going to be the big hit Science Fiction movie of (I think) 1977. Fortunately the big hit Science fiction movie of that year was an space opera called SDI or something like that, so not many people saw it and Zelazny's reputation was not severely tarnished. If some director/producer made some good science fiction movies, got to know Zelazny, and offered to film one of his stories and give him final cut, then he might go for it, but such a scenario is unlikely. David Palmer palmer@cit-vax.edu ...seismo!cit-vax!palmer ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 86 17:06:38 GMT From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton) Subject: Zelazny's Answer - Re: Books into movies Actually, I asked Roger Zelazny this question a couple of weeks ago. He still sells options on his books from time to time. This is quite normal for well-known writers, but only a very small number of the options ever become anything more. He disliked what they did on Damnation Alley, but only the very top-name authors get producers bidding on movie rights to their books, and the rest can't be too picky. He'll still sell an option (without right of final cut) to anybody with the money. >"This place is swarming with killer cockroaches" > -from Damnation Alley, the movie. Actually, this was one of the few scenes in the film which wasn't in the story but still had some merit. Brad Templeton Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: 8 July 1986 14:34:59 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Carlo N. Samson) Subject: Blade Runner music The main theme from Blade Runner is on the album "Sci Fi Spectacular" by Stage & Screen Productions. The album also contains music from E.T., Tron, Star Trek, 2001, etc. Actually, these are mostly short (around 3 minutes) themes performed by some orchestra, and not from the soundtrack. The best cut is the Blade Runner theme, but they absolutely killed the theme from Superman. (Can you imagine-- they made it a *disco* tune, for space's sake!) I wouldn't expect to find it in the main shelves of your local music store, though; I found my copy in a bin of $3.99 clearance cassettes. Carlo Samson U09862@uicvm ------------------------------ From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 86 20:51:06 -0100 Subject: Names changed to protect the innocent From: xenixsp!doug@caip.rutgers.edu >And stumbled across a copy of what appeared to be an episode of >SPACE 1999 this tape was entitled however, >_SYLVIA_DANNINGS_ADVENTURE_MOVIES_SPACE:_1999 >_THROUGH_THE_BLACK_SUN. needless to say it looked interesting >enough. It's *Sybil* Danning, not Sylvia. She's in the space remake of The Magnificant Seven (I forget the title now) along with Robert Vaughn, et al., some episodes of V, and various other more or less trashy stuff. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 86 20:37:56 PDT From: chuq@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) To: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu Subject: SF writers on the net. Yes, there are definitely some writers, published and unpublished on the net. Myself, for one. Also Jim Brunet, who is currently at Clarion so can't answer the message personally, and Leigh Ann Hussey. A writers group would definitely be interesting, if a workable format could be developed. I've thought about it but haven't seen an obvious format. One possibility would be to use the group as the development area for the Fiction section of OtherRealms, my electronic fanzine, although I don't know how well that would work... But there is definitely interest, at least from some corners. Just FYI, ALL magazines will send personal notes on rejections if they feel the article/story deserves it. Whether it deserves it is up to the editor reading and how much time and interest they have. chuq ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 86 13:17:57 GMT From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: What Orion Was....... From: SAROFF%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (MATTHEW G. SAROFF) > A couple of people have been asking what the ORION propulsion >project was. Here is a brief synopsis:... >2) All the numbers showed it work theoretically. And experiments showed it works in practice as well ... (at least with conventional explosives.) Freeman Dyson describes the tests and experiments in *The Starship and the Canoe,* a biography of Dyson and his sort of odd son who ends up doing great things with canoes. >4) If not for the treaty, It would probably not have been >developed. A ship with HUNDREDS of nukes on board is too tempting >as a military/terrorist target. All is not lost with Orion -- later discussions (see for example the BIS Daedelus project) discuss using laser-ignited fusion as a replacement for the fission bombs. This gives the bloody incredible mass-ratio of Orion without the problems inherent in carrying a thousand 100-kilotonne bombs around in your back pocket. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Jul 86 0940-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #189 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 14 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 189 Today's Topics: Books - Busby & Cherryh & Duane & Heinlein (4 msgs) & Lem & BOLO Stories & Bestsellers, Films - Terminator II & Star Trek IV ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Jul 86 23:49:29 EDT From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU> Subject: F.M. Busby and Rissa Kergeulen To: watdcsu!demo@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU Cc: KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU From: watdcsu!demo@caip.rutgers.edu (COURSE USE [DCS]) >Will someone please explain,preferably in words of no more than 4 >syllables, what is happening with the RISSA series. Just when I >believed that I had finished the series with THE LONG VIEW out >comes some more seemingly from the viewpoint of Bran Tregare . Did >I merely miss some of the series or is this a rehashing of the same >material ( a neat way of doubling your income from the same amount >of plotting). It is partly the same material, from a different viewpoint. It is different material up to the time when Bran meets Rissa. If you liked the original books, you will like these too. In fact, he wrote it yet a third time, from the viewpoint of Zelde M'tana. And he wrote a sequel to all of the above. I cannot recommend this series highly enough. Where else can you have enough emotion to bring tears even to my eyes, have a starship named "Backspace Key", have an excellent description of what things would be like in a civilization held together by relativistic spaceflight, and have the intellectual challenge of piecing together the chronology from throw-away lines. It is also a nice old fashioned evil empire story, complete with an exiled 'royal' family and plenty of heroes and villians. And even a couple of alien races. Keith ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 86 19:38:23 GMT From: eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu (David Eppstein) Subject: C.J. Cherryh and DAW cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) writes: > the DAW line is uneven partly because of high fraction of new > authors it brings out, among whom have been such winners as C J > Cherryh ... I have heard a rumor that C.J. Cherryh is switching from DAW to Baen books. Can anyone confirm this (or better deny it)? David Eppstein eppstein@cs.columbia.edu seismo!columbia!cs!eppstein ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 86 15:46:31 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: THE DOOR INTO SUNSET I asked Diane Duane when SUNSET was coming out, and I believe she said that it was due at the publishers in October. If she finishes THE ROMULAN WAY before August, though, SUNSET will be earlier. If you have NO idea what I'm talking about, read THE DOOR INTO FIRE and T.D.I.SHADOW. You won't regret it. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 86 20:46:15 GMT From: hadron!jsdy@caip.rutgers.edu (Joseph S. D. Yao) Subject: Re: Heinlein's Timelines > wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu writes: >> bryan@druhi.UUCP (BryanJT) writes: >>I saw nothing in "Friday" to indicate any connection with any of >>the other Future History stories. In fact, in many ways it is >>inconsistent with the other stories ... > It is, however, in the same universe as one of his earlier > short stories (and damn! for the life of my I can't remember the > title--and it was even mentioned here, quite recently, I think). > You know--the one with "Kettle-Belly" Baldwin and the supermen. You noticed that, too? Friday is inconsistent, though. (With its character handling, internally, too.) Details. This ties it, though, to The Black Pits of Luna and to ... Gnrf! I must have lent out both those books! The one in a collection with Waldo and Magic, Inc., wherein aliens take over one's nervous system, and the agent is one of the first caught. And I can't remember the name. The story is a bit like the Star Trek episode where the same happens to Spock. Joe Yao hadron!jsdy@seismo.{CSS.GOV,ARPA,UUCP} jsdy@hadron.COM (not yet domainised) ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 86 21:01:09 GMT From: hadron!jsdy@caip.rutgers.edu (Joseph S. D. Yao) Subject: Re: Re: Another Lazarus Long Question slj@mtung.UUCP (S. Luke Jones) writes: > Nathan Glasser writes: >> Also, on the back cover of the edition of TEFL I read, one of the >> blurbs about LL said "...A man so in love with time that he >> became his own ancestor..." >It sounds like they've confused TEFL with "All You Zombies." All my best Heinlein seems to be lent out! so this is a question rather than a statement. Didn't LL go back in time and impregnate his own mother the year he was born? (And, of course, the same thing happens in AYZ, but more so: the protagonist is his own mother and father. And recruiter and drill sergeant, as I remember.) Joe Yao hadron!jsdy@seismo.{CSS.GOV,ARPA,UUCP} jsdy@hadron.COM (not yet domainised) ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 86 22:12:33 GMT From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) Subject: Re: Re: Another Lazarus Long Question jsdy@hadron.UUCP (Joseph S. D. Yao) writes: >...Didn't LL go back in time and impregnate his own mother the year >he was born? Nope. She specifically mentions she only plays around when she's safe. For 1916 this apparently means when she's pregnant. I think the back cover blurb, if not just brain damage, has got to refer to Laz and Lor, who are female LL clones. I guess you could argue they are as much him as any of his clone replacement bodies are. That would make him his own ancestor, kind of. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 86 00:51:59 EDT From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU> Subject: The Cat Who Walks through Walls Does anyone know when Heinlein's _The Cat Who Walks through Walls_ will be out in paperback? I have been waiting nearly a year for it now. I own almost everything else Heinlein has written, but I DON'T buy hardback books. Keith ------------------------------ Date: 11 July 1986, 17:16:58 EDT From: RICHARD P KING <RPK@IBM.COM> Subject: Re: Comments & questions about Stanislaw Lem I've just returned from vacation to lay another load of stuff about Lem on you. Guy Schafer noted that Lem has had many different people translating his work, each once, never to be heard from again. This is true except for the greatest of them all, Michael Kandel. It was Kandel who translated _The Cyberiad_, _The Futurological Congress_, _Mortal Engines_, _A Perfect Vacuum_, and _The Star Diaries_. With Christine Rose he also translated _Memoirs Found in a Bathtub_. I recommend all of these books. They are the reason I became a fan of Lem. (Actually, I don't entirely recommend _Memoirs ..._, only its introduction.) There are 8 works that I know to be by other translators, each work a different translator. _The Invincible_, with its Polish to German to English translation reads like German translated into English. Page after page of short declarative sentences. _Solaris_, with its Polish to French to English translation is better, but still not entirely satisfactory. At times it's rather choppy, at others the dialogue scans poorly. The rest (_The Chain of Chance_, Further Memoirs of a Space Traveler_, _His Master's Voice_, _The Investigation_, _Return from the Stars_, _Tales of Pirx the Pilot_) were all translated directly from Polish to English, and are clearly superior. Still, they lack something. Of course, not reading Polish, I have no way of knowing what each translator was given to work with. I recommend these books with reservations. The Pirx and Tichy stories are good. All the rest have something worth exploring. But they can be rather difficult, and some are kinda dull. _Solaris_ is regarded by some people as his greatest work, but then there's the translation. I suggest trying the stuff translated by Kandel first. Guy's claim that Lem's work leaves almost no memory trace in his mind strikes me as peculiar. I admit to having little recollection of the specific paranoid ravings in the body of _Memoirs Found in a Bathtub_, but I still clearly recall the marvelous introduction; I read that book once, 7 years ago. It was 9 years ago that I read "The Mask" in _Mortal Engines_; it's a very sad story. I read _The Star Diaries_ 10 years ago; who could forget fantastic lines like "I'm not myself"? (I'm not kidding here. In the context in which it is used, it is both shocking and hilarious.) Another story which occasionally comes back to haunt me is "Terminus" from _Tales of Pirx the Pilot_; it has been 6 years since I read that one and I still haven't settled for myself the questions it raised. As to the name of the "woman" who drinks LOX in _Solaris_, it is Rheya. (For that, rest assured, I did not rely on memory.) Here's a little trivia question for you. Who invented the technique called morphological analysis, which is discussed in _The Futurological Congress_? Richard. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1986 11:31 CST From: John Bertram Geis(Syzygy Darklock) Subject: BOLO's Does anyone know for sure how many novels and short stories there are dealing with the BOLO fighting machines? I have read one anthology of them, which contained some of the best known works (eg. "The Last Command"), and yesterday I found a new novel (at least I assume that it's new!) by Keith Laumer called "Rogue Bolo". While I haven't had the chance to read it completely yet, it seems to follow the same style as the other short stories I've read. What I wish to find out is, does anyone know of any other BOLO novels by Laumer or any other authors? I would really like to collect and read the entire series. Thanks for any information you might have. John B. Geis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 86 16:21:32 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: trashy bestsellers I happen to like some of Anthony's work; there was an on-target comment here recently that the early books in any of his series are better than the later ones. However, this >As to the absolute trash part, say what? The Xanth books are, of >late, routinely on the paperback bestseller lists. I really don't >think that any book that is totally incompetent trash could hope to >achieve that status. is ridiculous. What gets on the bestseller list is a matter of marketing, name recognition, and the Mencken(?) axiom that nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public. The best example of this is NAKED CAME THE STRANGER (1969), which was written to be deliberately dreadful (as opposed, perhaps, to Jacqueline Susann or Harold Robbins) and became a bestseller. (NCtS isn't even the first time this was tried; "The Sweetheart of Sigma Chi" was written to be so disgustingly saccharine as to turn the fashion of the time for syrupy songs but became immensely popular itself.) As another example, consider the Gor books, which have gotten ever more popular as they've gone downhill (which started when Norman refused to let Ballantine cut a word of his deathless (undead?) prose and walked to DAW). Ironically, this trash can be said to be published in a good cause (the DAW line is uneven partly because of high fraction of new authors it brings out, among whom have been such winners as C J Cherryh; Wollheim has stated that each Gor book gives him financial room to publish up to six unknowns). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 86 22:20:01 EDT From: Flash%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Rick Flashman) Subject: Brief question on Terminator. Anybody know what is the general plot to "Terminator II" and when it will hit the theaters? ------------------------------ Date: 11 July 1986, 09:47:04 EDT From: NICHOLAS J SIMICICH <NJS@IBM.COM> Subject: Some Startrek Stuff The following is some information which others had extracted from various named sources relative to Star Trek IV. I take no responsibility for the accuracy of the information. Star Trek Stuff: ********Minor Spoilers******** Here is the paragraph about Star Trek IV. It is from Paramount Pictures Newsletter June, 1986 By the way for info on the newsletter: Paramount Pictures 1 Gulf & Western Plaza New York, NY 10023 Att: Publicity, N.N. Star Trek IV The People of San Francisco are used to some pretty strange sights. Even so, residents of the city by the bay were taken aback by the recent sighting of seven strangely familiar visitors. But what were Admiral James T. Kirk, Spock, "Bones," Scotty, Sulu, Chekov and Uhura doing tramping around San Francisco in 1986? Don't they belong in the 23rd Century? Well, they do, but in "STAR TREK IV: THE VOYAGE HOME," the former crew of the late Starship Enterprise travel back in time as they undertake a vital mission on Contemporary Earth. It seems that there's a planet-threatening problem in the future, and the only way to solve it is to return to the past. This latest chapter in the phenomenally successful series of motion pictures based on the classic television series is produced by Harve Bennett and directed by Leonard Nimoy. The centuries-spanning screenplay is written by Harve Bennett and Nicholas Meyer from a story by Steve Meerson and Peter Krikes, based upon "Star Trek" created by Gene Roddenberry. Ralph Winter is the executive producer of the film, which stars William Shatner, Leonard Nimoy, DeForest Kelly, and the rest of the original cast. Look for "STAR TREK IV: THE VOYAGE HOME" this Christmas. P.S. The picture shows Kirk, McCoy, and Spock in one shot. Here is some more info: The following text is copied from an article by Glenn Lovell in the San Jose Mercury News, dated June 15, 1986.(This may be the whole article) "Star Trek IV," various sources report, picks up where "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock" left off - on the planet Vulcan, where Spock, dead since the closing scenes of "Star Trek III," has his "katra" (life's essence) restored by High Priestess T'Lar (Dame Judith Anderson. Back in one piece but still obviously out of it, Spock submits to three months of "re-education" and then joins the "Star Trek" regulars (DefOrest Kelley as Bones, George Takei as Sulu, Walter Koenig as Checkov, James Doohan as Scotty) as they journey back to fleet headquarters in a commandeered Klingon ship. (Remember, the Starship Enterprise was destroyed in "III." Kirk, distraught over the murder of his son on the planet Genesis, rigged the Enterprise to self-destruct, then beamed aboard his Klingon captors.) At the start of "IV," Kirk and company are on their way home to "face what could be serious charges" for disobeying orders. It is while in transit that Spock's Vulcan ears detect a strange signal, warning of an immense object heading toward Earth. Said object will eventually cause a great cloud cover to block out the sun and threaten all life forms on the planet. Spock eventually cracks the coded message: It's a whale's song. But whales have been extinct for centuries, the victims of 20th century greed and carelessness... So, as they did in the celebrated "City on the Edge of Forever" episode of the TV series, Kirk and crew beam themselves back in time - on a mission to save Earth from itself. The unfolding drama, we're assured, will combine suspense, romance and lots of culture-clash comedy. Spock must also come to terms with his human mother, Amanda, who is played by veteran actress Jane Wyatt "in a brief but unimportant scene." Wyatt originated this role in the 1967 "Star Trek" TV episode "Journey to Babel." Well that's it. there's much more to the article, but no more plot stuff. Nimoy is quoted as saying that "It's a lot more of a romp, like 'Raiders of the Lost Ark.' We zigzag a lot with this one. And Spock is on screen a helluva lot more. He's alive, but there's a question of his mental capacity. You'll see Spock evolve into a three- dimensional character this time" ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Jul 86 0951-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #190 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 14 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 190 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (13 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Jul 86 21:30:54 GMT From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) Subject: Re: Tolkien for lesser enthusiasts I know this is going to be heretical to some, but my favorite work by Tolkien is his translation of Gawain and the Green Knight. I found it extremely readable, particularly aloud, and it brought new life to the old story. I'm probably a touched biased, since I had recently read John Myers Myers' "Silverlock", with its wonderful recasting of the story from Bertilac's point of view. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 86 08:25:04 GMT From: harry@ucbarpa.Berkeley.EDU (Harry I. Rubin) Subject: Re: The One Ring The text says that Sauron invested much of his power into the One Ring and makes clear that this is why the Ring is so powerful. The other Rings of Power, the Nine, the Seven, and especially the Three, are also powerful, but where did their power come from? If the power of the One came from Sauron, then it seems reasonable that the power of the other Rings must have come from their forgers. That is, the power in the Rings does not seem to be newly created by the forgers in the making, but only moved from the forgers themselves to the Rings being made. So, there would be some of Sauron's power in the Seven and the Nine; presumably this is what allows Sauron to control those Rings. But the Seven and the Nine also contain some of the power of the Elves who, with Sauron, forged them. This is what makes the Rings business such a good scam for Sauron: through them he was able to in effect steal part of the power of the Elven forgers and use it to his own ends! When Sauron gave a Ring away, it seems he was able to influence the wearer of the Ring, but not directly control him. Of course, the properties of the Ring itself, invested by its forgers, also had a strong influence. (The wearers of the Nine, guided by their own hearts and influenced by their Rings, accepted Sauron's influence to such an extent that they eventually became Shadows of Sauron, the Nazgul, at which point Sauron could control them directly. But while they were men, Sauron did not control them directly.) If Sauron had had some of the Seven or Nine in his direct possesion, would he have been able to wield that power directly, or only the portion of the power he had placed in the Rings but not the power invested by the Elves? Finally, when a Ring is destroyed, is the power in it released to return to its forger, or is the power destroyed utterly? From the consequences of Frodo's destruction of the One Ring it would seem that the power is destroyed utterly. Comments? ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jul 86 19:10:00 GMT From: pointer@hpccc Subject: Re: How much did Sauron control? caip!milne writes: > Saruman was also a Maia, and he died of a couple of hobbits' > arrows, I beg your pardon. didn't Wormtongue finally crack under Saruman's abuse and slit the wizard's throat when they were leaving the Shire? Agreed, a trivial correction at best... your point is well taken... evidently a Maia is quite mortal. dave@hplabs ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jul 86 20:15:03 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Tolkien for lesser enthusiasts avr@purdue.UUCP (Andrew V. Royappa) writes: >Incidentally, for those who have already read the Silmarillion, I >have this question: was Numenor supposed to be Atlantis ? Obvious >similarities aside, Tolkien at one point (near the end of the >Akallabeth) calls it "Atalante" (umlaut on the e). Yes, it is Atlantis. Certainly the similarities are quite amazing. Someone once called "Akallabeth" the longest build-up to a pun in history! (P.S. it is interesting to note that the stem `lanta', meaning fall also appears in the poem/song "Namarie" in LotR.) Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jul 86 20:28:31 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Sauron as Vala sliu@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Sliu) writes: >Where does it say that Ungoliant is a Maia? It doesn't in do so *explicitely*, but it is made clear indirectly. First, when she is introduced in the Silmarillion it is stated that she was "a spirit of evil that came from Outside". Second, all spirits from Outside(i.e. beyond Ea) were either Maiar or Valr, and she most clearly was *not* a Vala. QED, she was a Maia. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 86 16:01:38 GMT From: infopro!rf@caip.rutgers.edu (Randolph Fritz) Subject: Numenor & Atlantis Andrew V. Royappa (purdue!avr) asks, >was Numenor supposed to be Atlantis? Well, yes and no. The name is, of course, a pun on "Atlantis". At some other points, I believe he references Avallone (final "e" pronounced), which is likely a pun on "Avalon", Arthur's kingdom. (Tolkien did like multi-lingual puns!) The fall of Numenor, as told, probably owes more to a recurring dream Tolkien had, one of a great wave sweeping over an island. In Celtic mythology, there are stories about a drowned country; in Welsh (a language which Tolkien knew & loved) and in Breton. The Breton accounts, of a land called Ys, speak of a land which sunk so that only the highest towers (or was it mountains?) remain above water, much like Numenor. Now, these are only guesses. I'd have to check references to even ensure that I've given proper accounts of the myths. I remember *no* details of the Welsh myths at all & they're more likely to be Tolkien's sources than Breton myths. Without checking I am not entirely sure that Avallone was some place on Numenor. If one were to make a serious attempt to locate the "source" of Numenor, a careful reading of Tolkien's published letters would be a good place to start. There has been a fair amount of commentary on Tolkien published; a search might reveal that someone has already dealt with this question, accurately and at length. Randolph Fritz UUCPnet: {ihnp4,topaz}!infopro!rf ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 86 13:15:30 GMT From: bonnie!ron@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald Zasadzinski) Subject: The Lays of Beleriand friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes: >It is only in the Lays of Beleriand Are you saying that _The Lays of Beleriand_, the third book in "The History of Middle Earth" by JRR/Christopher Tolkien is in print? If it is, could you tell me where I can get a copy? I have just finished Lost Tales part two, and am waiting expectantly for the third book. Thanks in advance to anyone that has information on this. Send me mail at: ihnp4!bonnie!ron OR ihnp4!moss!ron U.S. mail: Ron Zasadzinski, 22 Crestview Terrace, Whippany NJ 07981 Ron ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 86 14:45:14 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: ...and yet more Rings... franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >Personally, I am inclined to believe that Bombadil was Iluvatar, at >least in some sense. The quote above is explained very easily: the >speaker does not know who Bombadil is (this is admitted), and so >underestimates his power. I sincerely doubt it, there are other passages that indicate that Bombadil is a limited, not an infinite being. Like when the Hobbits ask if the land belongs to him, and are told that nobody owns the land. I rather think that he is a Maia in his *original* state, not "humanized" like Gandalf and the wizards. He seems to date back to the time when the Valar and Maiar dwelt in Middle Earth, before they moved to Aman. I believe that he simply decided he didn't want to leave, and continued to wander around Middle Earth on his own. This would indeed make him Eldest, since he *was* there before any of the Children of Illuvatar, and he had no father, having come from Outside. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 86 14:57:37 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Galadriel's power milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes: >According to the only descriptions I've seen of this attack, it was >Galadriel who threw down the walls of Dol Guldur, and cleansed its >dungeons. > Which means it must have been her own power (and possibly >Celeborn's) which did so. This seems to me to suggest that she >herself, even unaided, possessed great power, well beyond the >measure of the Sylvan Elves around her (most of the Elves of the >Galadrim were Sylvan). In fact, even though she was not a Maia, >she seems to have had power on their scale. Either this was >intrinsic to the Noldor, being among the highest of the high, >raised by the Valar well above the levels of the Elves who remained >in Middle Earth; or perhaps it was in her family, starting with >Feanor, whose craft attained things that even Maiar seemed unable >to do. I believe that this kind of power came with being a High Elf, though in varying degrees, according to the native ability of each individual. Look at Feanor and Celebrimbor and Finrod and even Elrond! And those like the elf who killed a Balrog during the escape from Gondolin. I would hardly say they are the equal of Maiar, though there seems to be considerable overlap between the weakest maiar and the most powerful elves. The main thing to remember is that power in Tolkien comes from inside, and is an expression of a being's inner nature. Thus any powerful being may be able to do things others cannot, simply because of some unique aspect of thier inner fire. Thus Sauron cannot make Palantiri, not because he is *weaker* than Feanor, but because he is oriented in a completely different direction. P.S. Galadriel is *not* a descendant of Feanor, Gil-galad was the last of his line in Middle Earth. She was decended from Finarphin, I think(or at least one of the other major Houses of the Noldor). Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 86 15:07:34 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: How much did Sauron control? milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes: >Why do you choose the fall of Numenor, in particular? It seems >unrelated to Morgoth's creatures. I didn't "choose" it. I was saying that he *lost* much of his power at that point. It is clearly stated that his body was destroyed along with Numenor, and since he had put great power into that body, it took a lot for him to make another. Indeed he was no longer able to control the form his body took, instead it was determined by his inner nature. Then came the second disaster, he lost the Ring to the Last Alliance, and it took him *many* years to recover from that loss enough to return to return to the West and begin operations there again. >I know the section of "Unfinished Tales" you are referring to, and >it doesn't appear to me to indicate any such thing. It *does* >illustrate that Sauron was a campaigner who would take advantage of >any existing obstacle to his enemies -- but I knew that already. >What Gandalf seemed to mean was that the forces of the West would >have had to split between Mordor and Erebor if Smaug were still >there, or they would have had a large flank open to the dragon. >This would have worked nicely to Sauron's advantage. But there is >a considerable difference between taking advantage of something, >and controlling it, and there is no solid indication, in this >section or elsewhere that I know of, that Sauron actually had >control. Well, unfortunately these passages are somewhat ambiguous, so I suspect the answer will not be found. Certainly, I suspect that Sauron the Master of Trickery could well *fool* a dragon into doing what he wanted. But that is not exactly control. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jul 86 22:26:38 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Orcs Sarima writes: >the orcs], like the Elves..., are reincarnated! Hold it, Stan...Who says Elves are reincarnated? I haven't read all the Unfinished Tales, etc., but I always thought once an Elf died, he was stuck in the Halls of Mandos for all time. No? Sarek (Garrett Fitzgrald) st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 86 23:53:26 -0100 Subject: Magic in the LOTR From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) > I think that the relationship between capabilities and Intrinsic >Nature in the magic of Middle Earth shows up here. Since magic >flows from the soul, what can be done by any entity is determined >by its inner nature. Feanor had within his soul a fierce creative >fire enabling him to make many things, with the help of the Valar. I'm uncomfortable when I read something like this because it seems much too specific. It seems to add something to the LOTR that I don't think belongs there and which I find unnecessary. I don't think that this view of magic can be justified on the basis of the LOTR. I don't even think you can justify a notion of soul or of Intrinsic Nature. This is not to say it's entirely wrong, but "soul" and "intrinsic nature" say too much. Moreover, you can't, in my view, conclude anything from "magic flows from the soul" since this whole notion of soul, let alone magic flowing from it, is unfounded. "Soul" is an ill-defined notion in any case, as is "inner nature". Here is another approach. I already knew that Feanor was skillful, proud, and inventive; I knew he could create things that others could not, and that they probably wouldn't have though of in the first place. How does it help my understanding to attribute these things to a soul or Intrinsic Nature? That different people are capable of different things seems an entirely commonplace observation with no need for this theoretical apparatus. Moreover, what shows that your's is the right theory? It's certainly not the only way of explaining the matter. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 86 06:41:15 GMT From: maryland!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Lindor) Subject: Re: Orcs ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA writes: >Who says Elves are reincarnated? Elves, of course. Who else? >I haven't read all the Unfinished Tales, etc., but I always thought >once an Elf died, he was stuck in the Halls of Mandos for all time. >No? Some claim that the Elf named Glorfindel that Frodo and company met about a week after crossing the Mitheithel was the same as the Glorfindel who died in battle with a Balrog in Cirith Thoronath, Eagle's Pass. Most of us younger folk are rather doubtful, to put it mildly. The elders among us say that one's term in the Halls of Mandos is related to the quality of the deeds in one's life. This sounds to me suspiciously like what you call `scare tactics'; I prefer arguments that do not rely upon a `higher authority'. (On the other hand, Bregil says that it was ever thus: youth questions the wisdom of the ages, until they too are elders and a new youth begins challenging _them_. Well, we shall see.) Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1516) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Jul 86 1002-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #191 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 14 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 191 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1986 12:09 EDT From: Alan J. Berkson <ALBQC@CUNYVM> Subject: Tom Bombadil What bothers me the most is that Tolkien spent the least time developing probably the most intriguing character: Tom Bombadil. Who is this guy? Why is it that he can put on the one ring with no effects? And he's so old, he makes Treebeard look like a toddler. Alan J. Berkson Queens College Academic Computer Center ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 86 15:38:02 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Evil You know, having read about Sauron as ultimate evil (remember, Morgoth did not come up in LoTR), it really scares me what he must have been like WITH the Ring. If Morgoth was WORSE than that, I'd rather not know that much about him.... Sarek st801179%brownvm.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jul 86 23:40:31 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: The LOTR vs. other sources >In this discussion of Rings, it has generally been assumed that >reliable information about Middle Earth can be obtained by looking >at sources outside the LOTR, such as the Silmarillion or the >Unfinished Tales, and that the most reliable information can be >obtained by asking Tolkien himself. This is a convenient point of >view, since it gives us more material for discussion and makes its >interpretation easier, but I feel that it is somewhat of an >oversimplification. We do not normally consider tales, myths, >legends, or even personal accounts such as those that formed the >basis of the LOTR, to be completely accurate descriptions of past >events; and yet, with the exception of those parts that are clearly >metaphorical, such as the creation story, we do not apply these >standards to Tolkien's work. My own practise has been to try to take the most authoritative work I know for the period I'm considering. For the War of the Ring, it's LotR and not much else. Where the different translations in Unfinished Tales agree, I feel safe in relying on them; also on sections that simply weren't included in LotR due to space considerations (Battle of the Fords of Isen, Hunt for the Ring, Cirion and Eorl, for example). Of the actual events related in the Hobbit I'm pretty confident, but given Bilbo's age and experience when we wrote it, what he reports of things learned from Gandalf, Elrond, etc., I think need corroboration. I feel less sure about relying on Silmarillion, as it seems to me to be more "secondhand" -- but if it alone discusses the period I'm considering, I don't really see what else I can do. The Lays of Beleriand I could hardly consider an authoritative source, but I really want them more for their magnificent verse than for references. Where they agree with what I've already been told, fine; where they don't, I'll just sit back and enjoy the word painting. >. . . If we treat the tales of the Elder Days as we do most myths, >we would have to decide that most of what they say cannot be >interpreted literally. . . . Or, suppose we treated the >Silmarillion as we do the Illiad. There, we may accept that there >was a Trojan War, but we don't then accept that actual gods played >an important part. The difference is that we are hundreds upon hundreds of generations removed from the period of the Illiad and the Trojan Wars. But in Middle Earth, even in the Third Age, Elves still live who lived during much of the period that Mortals called "the Elder Days". Your argument is still well taken, because memories can change, or survive incompletely; and the Elves were not in any case given to frequent discussion of them. I believe the accounts we read now in Silmarillion were written by Bilbo (later by Frodo), who had considerable opportunity to talk with the Elves of Rivendell, at least a few of whom could remember Gondolin -- but we don't know how much he actually did, with whom he talked, and of what they talked. Still, I think we can place a lot more confidence in those tales as essentially (if perhaps not totally) factual accounts -- much more than we can place, for instance, in stories of the Trojan Wars. Messages concerning who intended Bilbo to find the Ring have been plain, but I don't think they try to be more than conjecture, aided by the somewhat extra breadth of vision granted by Silmarillion et al. There is a mystery about the matter (aided and abetted by Gandalf's closeness) that begs to be solved. People will naturally try to do so, and an accurate answer would, I'm afraid, destroy the mysterious appeal (how often can you read a detective story?). However, given that confirmation is quite impossible, I think we're in no danger of that. So I think that this one, at least, of LotR's attractive mysteries will remain an attractive mystery. >Another example comes to mind. Someone recently described Bombadil >as "a Valar who has gone to ground". Perhaps Tolkien too says as >much. But this is more than Elrond tells us: "Iarwain Ben-adar we >called him, oldest and fatherless." Here, Bombadil is just >himself, sui generis. If we now classify him with the Valar, we >impoverish the world. (We cannot classify Bombadil. We haven't the resources to do it. We can look at him, then at some of the powers that are said to have been around forever, and we can consider what our favourite answer would be, but that's all we can do. Finally, we will always have to ask whether our preference is in fact correct, and there is nowhere we can go for an answer.) The following argument notwithstanding, I quite agree. The lure of the unknown is often a thing enjoyable in itself, and with all the influence that the Elder Days exert on the Third Age, plenty of unknown is available. And it is unfortunate that the answers may not be as pleasant as was the lure of finding them. I think it is important to distinguish between the hobbits' viewpoint that we see in LotR, and the much more Elvish viewpoint of the "earlier" works. I think that of all the peoples in Middle Earth, it is the hobbits who are most like us, and with whom we can most empathise, so to a considerable degree, their feelings and points of view are most natural to us. It is much harder to understand the points of view from which Elvish accounts are written. Surely this stream of tragedies and disappointments cannot belong to the same gentle, smiling peoples whose beauty so enthralls the hobbits (and hence, us)? So I think that the disappointments we may feel from Silmarillion (I certainly felt some) are at least partly inherent in the different point of view presented. (I'm a little surprised you're so disappointed by the creation story. I found it a lovely myth, really quite a beautiful concept. I take it as an Elvish myth, inherited from the days of Valinor, because I see no basis for more confidence in it than that, but that makes it no less pretty. Of the actuality of Valinor itself I think we can be moderately confident, since artefacts from it (Palantiri, the Trees) are still present in the Third Age.) >Moreover, we cannot neglect our own role. Middle Earth is not just >what Tolkien gives us, but also what we bring to it. This is one >reason why it is possible to find more in it on each rereading: the >reader has changed. This is also one reason why I am uncomfortable >with appeals to Tolkien as the ultimate authority. We should not >suppose that every question has an answer and seek endlessly to >find it. In the LOTR, much is unknown, even to the Wise. BRAVO! A most excellent and necessary point. Middle Earth is a world, more so than any from any other work I've ever known. And as with the world we know, there are many, many questions to which we don't have answers, and for which there is no final, omniscient authority whose answer may comfortably be taken as incontrovertible Truth. While Tolkien, as the translator of these writings, must have had more experiences with them than anybody else (even Christopher), I quite agree that it doesn't follow that he must know them to the last detail; and I daresay he had his own opinions on open questions. If I am asked which of the two I prefer to believe, LotR or a possibly contradictory letter from Tolkien, I will say that, in view of the much greater concentration devoted to LotR, including criticism and revision, I will prefer LotR. If LotR is not clear on a point, I must assume that more solid information is not available (or it would be in the book). (Of course, if the letter is all I really have to go on, then by all means I will choose that.) (The Witch King's crown, and the cloak he wore, fell to the ground when Eowyn killed him, and whatever "presence" gave him being was dissipated. Both may well have been trampled and smashed as the battle continued.) >In sum, I would like to encourage two things. The first is to pay >greater attention to the LOTR itself, while still considering the >other works. The second is to to try for greater variety in our >approach to Middle Earth. The messages I find most useful are >those that suggest new ways of reading or that let me see things >I've overlooked. I will do my best! Now that I've done with all my little quibbles, I have two words to say: I AGREE! Alastair Milne PS. For a bit of perspective on how much difference Elvish longevity might make, look at the geneology tree in Silmarillion that includes Elros and Elrond. From Elrond a line goes down to his daughter Arwen, with an = sign indicating her marriage to Aragorn. Now for Aragorn's descent: starting with Elros, Elrond's half-brother, crammed into the space available for them are "all the kings of Numenor, all the kings of Gondor, rangers of Arnor" (essentially), sharing the stretch of time that, on Elrond's side, is Arwen's alone. Is it any wonder that the Elves view the world differently? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 86 00:25:32 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: The One Ring >>As far as I know, the Dwarves were always estranged from others, >>to one degree or another. They never had, for instance, the >>immediate friendship that arose between Men and Elves. Their >>languages and customs were kept very much to themselves. But it >>seems to me that, in the case of the house of Durin at least, the >>Rings couldn't have increased it that much, or the co-operation >>with the Elven smiths and the openness of Khazad-Dum would never >>have occurred. > Mind you, this was largely *before* and during the forging of >the Rings! ... Thank you for putting it so nicely! Have you any idea what I twit I felt half an hour after posting this? Of course the Ring had "little" effect in Khazad-dum : it didn't flippin' EXIST yet! > I think the Dragons were more under Sauron's control than you >realize, even if it was subtle, indirect control. Certainly the >words of Gandalf to the Hobbits in Minas Tirith indicate that *he* >thought Sauron was in charge of Smaug. It is my belief that Smaug's >attack on the Lonely Mountain was instigated by Sauron in hopes of >"liberating" the Ring of Durin. It failed in that purpose, and the >Ring escaped the mountain. This is supported by Gandalf's statement >that the misfortunes of the House of Durin were due in large part >to the malice of Sauron and his lust for the Ring. Certainly the >Desolation of Smaug was the greatest of these misfortunes! Gandalf's explanation to the hobbits told me no more than that he feared what advantage Sauron might make of the dragon's actions. I could not take it as a statement that Smaug would heed Sauron's commands. I am resisting this suggestion not because of anything LotR specifically says against it (that I know of), but because LotR says nothing concrete for it, and the dragons don't seem to me to fit the pattern of Sauron's servants: too clever and independent at once -- neither dim and dominable, like the Orcs, nor with their wills part of his, like the Nazgul. What's the good of a servant that requires constant expenditure of real strength just to keep him servile? Sending a dragon to "liberate" the Ring sounds to me like great carelessness on the part of one so wise. The history of dragons and the Seven is that the dragons consumed the Rings (by consuming the dwarves wearing them). Far better to wait until he had great strength gathered -- which he was doing anyway, on other accounts -- then beseige Erebor and take what he wanted. In the event, he was lucky: Thrain escaped, and in his later wanderings was captured and taken to Dol Guldur, and the Ring seized from him. Had he not escaped, he would have died, and the Ring would either have become part of Smaug's treasure (by what gentle subtlety would Sauron have persuaded him to part with it?), or he would have consumed it (with Thrain, presumably). (It may, however, be that it was Sauron's servants who arranged for rumour of Erebor's riches to reach the dragon. It might endanger the Ring, but it would most definitely endanger what would, in his coming War, be a solid, well-defended outpost against him, virtually eliminating the defense of the passage around northern Mirkwood, through which his armies could then reach the Vales of Anduin. Thank you. I never thought of that before.) I think you'll find that the loss of Moria and the deaths of so many leaders were that House's real misfortunes. Though they made a great work of it, and were rightly proud of what they built, Erebor was not their principle residence, and the loss of so many lives in Smaug's attack was, I think, a greater blow than the loss of the Mountain (though it was, of course, a hard blow). My reading of Gandalf's statement was that Sauron had a concealed, but controlling, hand in all the afflictions the Orcs visited on Moria, particularly the dreadful Battle of Nanduhirion -- also the tracking down of various Ringbearer's by Sauron's servants. Living in Khazad-dum seemed to give the Dwarves their greatest security, exile from it their greatest hardship. > The way I see it is that Sauron would have *prefered* to regain >the Seven, but given the choice between letting the Dwarves keep >them and seeing them destroyed, he prefered the destruction. Quite logical, I grant you. I'll have to think about that. >Besides, he had probably hoped that the Dragons would *collect* the >Rings, not consume them. After all the greed and avarice of Dragons >is legendary. Which makes recovering them afterward a bit tricky. Besides, as I said above, it seems rather unlikely to me that he would lay his plans on so much hope, rather than making certain. Though I suppose, if he could get nothing better out of the dragons, it was, as you say, a choice to be preferred over letting the Dwarves keep them. Alastair Milne PS. I just thought of this. Can you imagine one of Sauron's subtlest servants succeeding in stealing one of those Rings from a dragon's hoard, followed by the dragon's discovering the loss, and pursuing to Dol Guldur? Necromancer vs. Dragon. Might have burnt down half of Mirkwood. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Jul 86 0924-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #192 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 15 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 192 Today's Topics: Books - Barnes (2 msgs) & Briarton & Duane & Heinlein (5 msgs) & Piper (2 msgs) & Wilson & The Eye of Argon, Films - Books into Movies (3 msgs) & Back to the Future, Television - Max Headroom, Miscellaneous - Sf Writers' Group ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Jul 86 08:13:05 EDT From: Ray <CARON@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU> Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #187 I just re-read Dream Park by Niven and Barnes and would like to find out about other books Steven Barnes wrote. I remember a book by him called Street Lethal but can't find it any more and lost my copy in the lend it to some one who lends it to someone etc cycle. Thanks in advance, Ray Caron ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 86 00:23:18 GMT From: chapman@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #187 CARON@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU writes: >I just re-read Dream Park by Niven and Barnes and would like to >find out about other books Steven Barnes wrote. I remember a book >by him called Street Lethal but can't find it any more and lost my >copy in the lend it to some one who lends it to someone etc cycle. Pournelle mentioned in his column in this month's Byte that he, Niven, and a third author (I think he said it was Barnes, but I can't remember for certain) are working on a book together. You might check there. Brent Chapman chapman@pavepaws.berkeley.edu ucbvax!pavepaws!chapman ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jul 86 14:10 CET From: <PSST001%DTUZDV1.BitNet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> Subject: Translations Recently,I bought a German copy of the 30-year-edition of the Magazine of F&SF.It included a story by Grendel Briarton called 'Through space and time with Ferdinand Feghoot' which was just half a page and ,I suppose, meant to be either funny or witty. If so,the clue has been completely lost due to translation and the story ended in the middle of nowhere,leaving an armada of question marks in my brain. I tried to translate back to English,yet could not find out what the clue could have been about. Can someone who has a copy in English mail the last few sentences to me, please? Thanx in advance, Michael Maisack (PSST001 at DTUZDV1 in BITNET) ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 86 08:28:23 GMT From: kalash@ingres.Berkeley.EDU.ARPA (Joe Kalash) Subject: Re: THE DOOR INTO SUNSET From: Garrett Fitzgerald >I asked Diane Duane when SUNSET was coming out, and I believe she >said that it was due at the publishers in October. This would mean we won't see the book until about June on next year :-(. It takes publishers a LONG time to go from a manuscript into a book. Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 86 14:43:55 GMT From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (S. Luke Jones) Subject: Re: Re: Re: Another Lazarus Long Question > All my best Heinlein seems to be lent out! so this is a question > rather than a statement. Didn't LL go back in time and impregnate > his own mother the year he was born? (And, of course, the same > thing happens in AYZ, but more so: the protagonist is his own > mother and father. And recruiter and drill sergeant, as I > remember.) LL went back and had carnal knowledge of Maureen Johnson Smith, true; however, she said she was pregnant at the time with the child who would be named Theodore Ira Smith. Luke Jones ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 86 23:13:30 GMT From: chapman@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Heinlein's Timelines The first Dr. Baldwin story is called, I believe "Assignment in Eternity". If that's not the title of the story, that's the collection it is in, along with "Gulf". The second story referred to, with the alien invaders, is (I think) "The Puppet Masters". I had never considered it as related to AiE and Friday, but I haven't read it in a few years, so I can't say for certain. Someone asked if and how RAH affected each of us when we first began reading SF. It was his books that got me started reading SF, and got me totally hooked on the genre. I've read everything by him that I could get my hands on, and own almost everything of his that has been printed in paperback in the last 8 years or so. RAH books make up about 20% of my collection. I like the wide range of his stories. There are many "juvenile" stories, such as those of Podkayne, "Have Spacesuit, Will Travel", and "Rocketship Galileo". There are also some decidedly non-juvenile works, including "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", "The Number of the Beast", and "Friday". Most of his works are up-beat and humorous. I read to relax, so I tend to dislike authors such as Harlan Ellison, who seem to have nothing "up" about them. RAH suits me just fine. There have been charges of sexism in his stories. All I can say is, I don't see any of his recent work as sexist. If his earlier work is, well, I'd have to point out that those were the attitudes of society (right or wrong) when the stories were written. I think he's done a wonderful job of adapting to the changes of society, much better than others I can think of. If you haven't figured it out by now, I _like_ RAH and his stories. Whatever else they are, they are certainly unforgetable. Who could forget someone like Lazarus Long, or Mike HOLMES, or Friday Baldwin? Even if you forget the names, the characters stick in your mind. Brent Chapman chapman@pavepaws.berkeley.edu ucbvax!pavepaws!chapman ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 86 00:15:03 GMT From: chapman@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Heinlein's Timelines Laz went back to a date about 7 or so years after his own birth. If you'll remember, when Laz and his mother go off alone, it turns out Woody (little Laz) is hiding in the back seat of the car, and they ended up taking him to an amusement park, instead of amusing themselves (chuckle, chuckle :-). Brent Chapman chapman@pavepaws.berkeley.edu ucbvax!pavepaws!chapman ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 86 19:26:55 GMT From: dartvax!ericb@caip.rutgers.edu (Eric J. Bivona) Subject: Re: Re: Another Lazarus Long Question LL went back in time to just before WW I. While he was there he met his father, mother, grandfather, sisters, brothers, and himself, a five year old tike with a *mean* disposition (:-). Lazarus considers strangling himself (the five year old) on at least one occasion, but refrains (thank causality...). Thus, he doesn't actually become his own father (at least in TEFL), even though he does go to bed with his mother (she's already pregnant at the time). Eric Bivona USNET: {linus|ihnp4|decvax|astrovax|research}!dartvax!ericb ARPA: ericb%dartmouth@csnet-relay CSNET: ericb@dartmouth ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 86 12:46:17 GMT From: duke!ndd@caip.rutgers.edu (Ned Danieley) Subject: Re: Lazarus Long, found in _The_Past... dbb@rayssdb.UUCP (David B. Bennett) writes: >Several years ago (6-10?) after having worked my way through >_Time_Enough_ _For_Love_ a friend of mine (a Heinlein fanatic) told >me that Lazarus Long appeared in a cameo position in every short >story in the book _The_Past_Through_Tomorrow:_"Future_History"_ >Stories_ in much the same way as Alfred Hitchcock appeared in the >movies he directed: a cameo position, unobtrusive, and largely >hidden - one had to look to see him. I sincerely doubt it. I recently re-read several of the stories in TPTT, and it seems unlikely that any of the characters in, for instance, "The Long Watch" or "Gentlemen, Be Seated" could have been LL. I suspect, in fact, that he doesn't appear in any recognizable form in >any< of the shorts; I believe that most of them predate "Methuselah's Children". I don't think that Heinlein got on to this business of tying LL into his universes until relatively recently. Ned Danieley decvax!duke!ndd ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 86 06:53:18 GMT From: kalash@ingres.Berkeley.EDU.ARPA (Joe Kalash) Subject: Re: Piper wad@ihlpf.UUCP (Dawson) writes: >I just finished Space Viking and Little Fuzzy and would wish to >know the titles of his others books... The Cosmic Computer [1964] (Reissue of Junkyard Planet) Crisis in 2140 [1957] Four Day Planet [1961] The Fuzzy Papers [1977] (Book Club compilation of Little Fuzzy, and The Other Human Race) Fuzzy Sapiens [1976] (Reissue of The Other Human Race) Junkyard Planet [1963] Little Fuzzy [1962] Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen [1965] Murder in the Gunroom [1953] The Other Human Race [1964] A Planet for Texans [1958] Space Viking [1963] Sigh, there is one more Fuzzy book by Piper, but it is buried and I can't remember the title for the life of me... >books in the fuzzy series have been written by different authors. > ie <title unknown> by Arduth Mayhar. The Golden Dream: A Fuzzy Odyssey by Ardath Mayhar Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 86 06:15:00 GMT From: uok!ricmtodd@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Orphaned Response List of all H. Beam Piper books that I can remember at the moment (I think I have all of them) Piper wrote 2 main series, the Paratime series (alternate universes), and the Terro-Human Future History. Paratime series: Paratime (short story collection) Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen THFH series: Four-Day Planet Uller Uprising Federation (s.s collection) First Cycle (finished by Michael Kurland after Piper's death) Little Fuzzy Fuzzy Sapiens "Trilogy" of Fuzzy novels (obviously) Fuzzies and Other People The Cosmic Computer Space Viking Empire (s.s. collection) Not part of any series: The Worlds of H. Beam Piper (s.s. collection) Lone Star Planet (cowritten w. J.J.McGuire) Other authors have written books in Piper's settings. William Tuning wrote _Fuzzy Bones_ and Ardath Mayhar wrote _Golden Dream: A Fuzzy Odyssey_. _Golden Dream_ builds on the explanation of the Fuzzies' origins in _Fuzzy Bones_. Supposedly John Carr wrote a book called _Great King's War_ (sequel to _Lord Kalvan_), but I haven't seen it in the bookstores around here. Also, Jerry Pournelle is working on a sequel to Space Viking which reportedly be out Real Soon Now. (It's been coming out Real Soon Now for over 5 years now :-) ) As for more info about the man Piper, you can find it in the introductions to _Empire_,_Paratime_,and _Federation_. Richard Todd USSnail:820 Annie Court,Norman OK 73069 UUCP: {allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!okstate!uokvax!uok!ricmtodd ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 86 10:33:06 GMT From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin) Subject: Re: F. Paul Wilson I've been following the discussion on F. Paul Wilson with some interest over the past few weeks, and now seems to be a good time to ask if anyone out there can supply me with a list of books that he's written. I've read both "The Keep" and "Tomb", but I don't know of any other books. Can anybody help me? Thanks in advance, Jim Gavin. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 86 04:17:40 GMT From: sco!ericg@caip.rutgers.edu (Eric Griswold of QA) Subject: _The_Eye_of_Argon_ Have any of you netlanders had the opportunity to attend an _Eye_of_Argon_ reading? Better yet, does anyone have an electronic copy of this "gem" to send away to a now loyal fan. I sure hope it ain't copyrighted. Eric Griswold Santa Cruz, Ca. {ihnp4, cithep, amd}!sco!ericg ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 86 03:01:40 GMT From: aecom!mkaplan@caip.rutgers.edu (Marc Kaplan) Subject: Re: Films of favourite sf books What I'd like to see is the two part story "Kinsman/Millenium", by Ben Bova. (Whenever I say his name to friends, I only get a shrug -- is it me or them??????). Kinsman would offer viewers the chance to root for a good guy who can still be imperfect. And as long as we're doing moon stories, how about "The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress"; or maybe not, we don't want to give the russians a good idea. Marc Kaplan ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 86 08:13:05 EDT From: Ray <CARON@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU> Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #187 In continung the list of books to movies I can't believe no one mentioned Isaac Asimov's Foundation series, being acclaimed as the best Sf series of all time by the Hugo awards qualifies it. Ray Caron ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 86 16:57:59 GMT From: zaphod!bobd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Dalgleish) Subject: Re: Books into movies Let us also not forget Dune :-) But seriously folks. . . Movies and books are different media; they must be perceived and enjoyed differently. It is very difficult to turn a book into a movie (witness Dune). Some of it is the visualisation, some is the amount of material to be covered. Short stories often translate better than novels, often because less has to be cut and the plot suffers less. dml@loral.UUCP (Dave Lewis) writes: >6. Brain Wave Poul Anderson Perhaps a good Twilight Zone episode. >8. The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever >Stephen R. Donaldson (All 6 books -- but it would be about 14 >hours long) Similar to War and Peace (the Russian version). There is just too much material here. >9. Gulf Robert A. Heinlein I agree on this one. >11. Almost anything by Roger Zelazny Not quite. Remember _Damnation_Alley_? However, the Dilvish stories (and, of course, Unicorn Variations) would make acceptable movies. Bob Dalgleish ...ihnp4!{alberta!}sask!zaphod!bobd ------------------------------ Date: 10 July 1986 09:18:49 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Carlo N. Samson ) Subject: Re: Back to the Future I saw "Back to the Future" in the theater and on video, and I don't think I saw "to be continued" at the end of the theater showing. I did see it at the end of the video, so maybe there really is going to be a sequel. Carlo Samson U09862@uicvm ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 86 20:28:58 GMT From: usc-oberon!bishop@caip.rutgers.edu (Brian Bishop) Subject: Re: MAX HEADROOM tmca@utastro.UUCP (Tim Abbott) writes: >Max Headroom is a computer model of the hero of a single, hour long >film that was first shown on British television (Channel Four) >about 18 months ago. There is no drama series of Max Headroom's >adventures, but the electronic... One interesting Headroom "fun fact": Apparently he was a reporter originally (and went by a different name) when he broke the story on *blipverts*, thirty-second ads squeezed into three seconds, real-time. Unfortunately he was killed for this, smashing into a sign that read "Max. Headroom 6 M." He was resurrected with the new name....Max Headroom. The rest is history. Note: this info is second-hand, as I haven't been able to get a videotape of Max, as I can't get Cinemax, (hint hint....I have several "Prisoner" episodes...) Brian Bishop Bishop@Usc-Ecl Bishop@Usc-Oberon (uscvax,sdcvdef,engvax,scgvaxd,smeagol)!oberon!bishop ------------------------------ Date: 10 July 1986 09:18:49 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Carlo N. Samson ) Subject: Re: SF Writers As for a writer's group, I heartily welcome the idea. I've got a notebook full of ideas for sci-fi adventures, fantasy epics, post-holocaust stories, etc., plus a couple of half-written rough drafts laying around, so any advice on how to turn all that into something people will want to read is much needed. Carlo Samson U09862@uicvm p.s. Does anyone know if the "Writers of the Future" contest will be extended into the next year? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Jul 86 0944-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #193 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 15 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 193 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (10 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 08 Jul 86 21:46:30 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: Moral Choice in LOTR pete@stc.UUCP (Peter Kendell) writes: >It always struck me as a flaw in the book that all the characters >or groups except one get the opportunity to make the choice between >Good and Evil. > >The missing group is the Orcs. > >Is this because they were Sauron's creation and hence wholly evil? >It still seems wrong, though, that they are given no chance to >repent, or even to choose. I'm not sure exactly what choosing between Good and Evil means to you, so I find hard to observe whether the Orcs were allowed the choice or not. Orcs seem to have fallen into either of two situations in LotR: either under Sauron's or Saruman's thumb (all the Mordorian orcs, particularly the Uruks), or relatively independent, like the tribes in dens in the northern Misty Mountains. However, there wasn't terribly much difference between them. The dominated ones were more blindly driven by their masters' wills, and among other things, this made them cooperate better (or at least, less badly). Yet even they, in the absence of other enemies, would turn one tribe against another, and even one Orc against another within the tribes -- consider the fighting between southern, northern, and Mordorian tribes when Saruman's raid captured Merry and Pippin, and the eventual slaughter between Shagrat's and Gorbag's garrisons. The independent ones (the northerly tribes) would raid and rob for their survival, and appear to have delighted in tormenting captives, if we can take as accurate the reports of what happened to Thorin and Company, and the revenge sought by Elladan and Elrohir for their mother's torment. They were as much a danger, on their own account, to anybody else as those under domination were on their masters' accounts. But never, from either camp, do we see an Orc coming to the West, or even just fighting for his own independence, neither to do to others, nor to be done to by them (the Ents, and the Rohirrim, both wanted simply to be left out of war against Sauron). And the battles we see against Orcs are caused, exclusively as far as I can remember, by Orc attacks and invasions. And even if some weren't, it seems to me that after 9000 years or more of the same behaviour from Orcs, I think one is justified in assuming the next Orc one finds will act in the same fashion as the thousands of others. So I think the Orcs, as far as it was possible for them to do so, had cast their own lots. Obviously a great many of them had no will in the matter whatsoever: when the Ring was destroyed, just as the Captains of the West were expecting a final, hopeless battle before the Morannon, and Sauron either perished or became powerless, the Orcs suddenly went mindless, wandering witlessly and killing themselves. With Sauron's will removed from them, nothing was left. I hope this deals at least partly with what you had in mind. Personally, I see the Orcs as being almost biological "machines", without a real existence of their own, and a choice between Good and Evil was not theirs to make. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 86 19:03:28 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: Ungoliant as a Maia To my mind, Ungoliant (and therefore Shelob) is one of those creatures that we haven't the resources to classify. Even if she (it?) was one of the Ainur, that doesn't help very much, because we have no exhaustive list of all the beings that were Ainur. We know there were Valar and Maiar; we do not know that there was nothing else (in fact, Elvish legend suggests the contrary, speaking of Ainur that never entered Ea). Furthermore, though we have a list of all the Valar of whom the Eldar were aware, we do not know for certain that there were no others, unknown to them. It therefore seems no more possible to pin down Ungoliant than to pin down Tom Bombadil. And I'm not at all sure that, were it possible, I'd want to do so. A little remaining mystery makes the sense of the exotic stronger. Does anybody know more about the name than just that it seemed to be Sindarin for "spider" or "giant spider?" (As in Cirith Ungol, the Spider's Pass (evidently Frodo's Elvish was not quite up to that) )? Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 86 19:31:59 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Was Westernesse "Atlantis"? One has to be extremely careful in drawing conclusions on the basis of apparent "cognates". Usually they are not cognates at all (English did not, after all, exist at the time), but declensions or conjugations that by coincidence resemble words in other languages. To cite an example a little closer to home, German has the words "wo" and "wer" (pron. "voh" and "vehr"). "wo", however, means "where", not "who"; and "wer" (you guessed it) means "who", not "where". Apparently close, but not actually so. I should imagine that "Atalante" has similar roots. (I am not saying that the identity was not there -- I don't know either way. But a supposed a cognate of "Atalante" is not adequate evidence. ) I guess another example might be "Eldar" itself. Because of their age, and the fact that they were the first people to awaken, it is tempting to think the word means "Elders". But it doesn't: it is simply one of the Elves' names for themselves. (Silmarillion suggests it is derived from the word "El", meaning "star", which, according to Elvish legend, covered the night sky when they first awoke, and which they came to love.) Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 86 20:48:19 GMT From: watnot!jrsheridan@caip.rutgers.edu (James R. Sheridan) Subject: Death of a Maia? pointer@hpccc writes: >> Saruman was also a Maia, and he died of a couple of hobbits' >> arrows, >I beg your pardon. Didn't Wormtongue finally crack under Saruman's >abuse and slit the wizard's throat when they were leaving the >Shire? >Agreed, a trivial correction at best... your point is well taken... >evidently a Maia is quite mortal. A related question/point here. When Saurman was killed (yes, it was Wormtongue), the following was noticed, "...about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh disolved into nothing." Now, to me it seems pretty obvious that Saruman, a Maia, was looking to Manwe and the other Valar for permission to return to Aman and was denied. The question I have is where did he go then? Out of the circles of the world, like Melkor? Did he truely "die"? Also note that the same sort of thing happened to Sauron. If you don't think it was Manwe and the other Valar, was it Iluvatar? The above quote is probably copyright by George Allen & Unwin Ltd. James R. Sheridan Faculty of Mathematics University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Canada {utzoo|allegra|ihnp4|decvax|clyde}!watmath!whatnot!jrsheridan ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 86 21:07:28 GMT From: watnot!jrsheridan@caip.rutgers.edu (James R. Sheridan) Subject: Re: Galadriel's power friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes: >milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes: >>According to the only descriptions I've seen of this attack, it >>was Galadriel who threw down the walls of Dol Guldur, and cleansed >>its dungeons. Which means it must have been her own power (and >>possibly Celeborn's) which did so. This seems to me to suggest >>that she herself, even unaided, possessed great power, well beyond >>the measure of the Sylvan Elves around her (most of the Elves of >>the Galadrim were Sylvan). > >P.S. Galadriel is *not* a descendant of Feanor, Gil-galad was the >last of his line in Middle Earth. She was descended from Finarphin, >I think(or at least one of the other major Houses of the Noldor). Galadriel was descended from Finarphin and was considered "the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe". However, she is also described as "the greatest of the Eldar surviving in Middle-earth, [she] was potent mainly in wisdom and goodness, as a director or counsellor in the struggle, unconquerable in RESISTANCE (especially in mind and spirit) but incapable of punitive ACTION" [Note that the capitalized words were italicized in the text Unfinished Tales]. I would tend to believe it was more Celeborn's power that destroyed the walls. Comments? James R. Sheridan Faculty of Mathematics University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Canada {utzoo|allegra|ihnp4|decvax|clyde}!watmath!whatnot!jrsheridan ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 86 19:51:19 GMT From: context@uw-june (Ronald Blanford) Subject: Hobbits et al. While the Silmarillion explains the origins of elves, men, and to some extent dwarves, I'm still confused about the origin of other semi-manlike beings such as hobbits and the inhabitants of Druadan Forest and perhaps Pukel-men. Do any of the more erudite have explanations? Also, why are the Eagles not reckoned as one of the significant races in Middle Earth when they are able to speak and were major forces in both the Battle of Five Armies and the battle before the gates of Mordor? Who and what is Beorn and the Beornings? Ron Blanford ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jul 86 01:57:53 -0300 From: Ady Wiernik <ady%taurus.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> Subject: Sauron and the Dragons (and Balrogs too...) Regardless of actual tactics used by Sauron, we should remember that he DID have the ability to control Dragons to some extent: Dragons were the bombers of Morgoths army (cf. Silmarilion, Of Tour and the Fall of Gondolin, pp. 297, "and with them came dragons of the brood of Glaurung..."), and Sauron, who was Morgoths General, must have had a way to direct their operations. It might be argued that Morgoth was intelligent enough so not to give his General a complete control over his units (so he would not be able to usurp his position), but that raises some tough questions in battle management. I don't believe that a Dragon would cooporate in organized warfare unless he's a bit scared of the general involved. Now for a new subject - it seems to me that rule goes like "whoever kills a Balrog dies in the process". Two prime examples I remember are Gandalf (which, as I understand it, died in the combat but was returned to Earth) and the two Balrogs slain in the battle of Gondolin: Gothmog slain by Ecthelion (in the square of the King) and the nameless Balrog slain by Glorfindel in the Cirith Toronoath. Any other examples (either for or against this theory) ? Ady Wiernik ady@taurus.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jul 86 01:23:12 GMT From: mcgill-vision!mouse@caip.rutgers.edu (der Mouse) Subject: Re: How much did Sauron control? >> Saruman was also a Maia, and he died of a couple of hobbits' >> arrows, > [no, Wormtongue killed Saruman] Yes, and then it was Wormtongue who was shot. > agreed, a trivial correction at best... your point is well > taken... evidently a Maia is quite mortal. Er, a *fallen* Maia is quite mortal. Don't forget that Saruman had been cast out (and apparently had his power broken by) by Gandalf. Also remember Gandalf's comment when Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn meet him (after he's come back from his fight with the Balrog): "Get up, my good Gimli! No blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed, my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me." der Mouse USA: {ihnp4,decvax,akgua,utzoo,etc}!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse philabs!micomvax!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse Europe: mcvax!decvax!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse mcvax!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!micomvax!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse ARPAnet: utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 86 19:54:16 GMT From: gds@sri-spam.ARPA (The lost Bostonian) Subject: Re: Hobbits et al. context@uw-june (Ronald Blanford) writes: > While the Silmarillion explains the origins of elves, men, and to > some extent dwarves, I'm still confused about the origin of other > semi-manlike beings such as hobbits and the inhabitants of Druadan > Forest and perhaps Pukel-men. Do any of the more erudite have > explanations? The Druadan are a people of around four feet who inhabited the same area in Beleriand as the People of Haleth in the First Age. Their origins are discussed in the section on The Druedain in Unfinished Tales. As far as The Hobbit, LOTR, The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales go, there is no explanation of how hobbits originated. All we know is that they sort of "popped up" in Eriador about TA 1000. Their origins are probably one of the hidden things of Iluvatar which were not revealed in the Music of the Ainur (and for good reason, considering the part the hobbits played in the War of the Ring, had Sauron had information on them earlier his fortunes might have been much better). > Also, why are the Eagles not reckoned as one of the significant > races in Middle Earth when they are able to speak and were major > forces in both the Battle of Five Armies and the battle before the > gates of Mordor? Eagles are the eyes of Manwe. Their work is primarily in his service. There doesn't seem to be a need for a detailed history of their deeds. > Who and what is Beorn and the Beornings? Another mystery. The Beornings, the Rohirrim and men of Dale are all supposed to have as ancestors the Edain who did not heed the call to come to Numenor. They may be traced to a man (Amlach son of Imlach? I don't have the books with me) and his people who left Beleriand after having a dispute over whether or not he was reported to have said something. Amlach thought it might be Sauron who masqueraded as him. Anyway, he left with some of his people, and the non-Dunedain who lived on the upper Anduin are supposed to have come from him. The puzzling thing is Beorn and his people's ability to change shape, which might just be Bilbo's imagination, but if it isn't, then the Beornings may have some of the elder races in them. gregbo ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 86 20:22:08 GMT From: gds@sri-spam.ARPA (The lost Bostonian) Subject: Re: Moral Choice in LOTR Orcs are suspected to be a mutation of Elves brought about by Morgoth (not Sauron) in the early First Age shortly after the Elves awoke. There is a passage somewhere in the Silmarillion which says that after his rebellion, Morgoth no longer possessed the power to create life (as opposed to Aule who created the Dwarves). Orcs were not dominated by Morgoth or Sauron in the same way that Sauron ordered the Nazgul. Remember that the wills of the Nazgul were drawn to Sauron because of the Ring. Neither Morgoth nor Sauron held anything which would control the Orcs in the same way. Morgoth and Sauron controlled the Orcs largely by fear. The Orcs are seen to have the ability to choose, for example the conversation Frodo and Sam overheard in Cirith Ungol where two Orcs were considering whether or not to flee the tower. Unfortunately, the Orcs, because of their mutation, hated the Elves from the beginning, and probably learned to hate Men as well. No matter how they felt about Sauron, that would not have stopped them from killing Men or Elves. Because of the trouble Orcs caused Men and Elves, it is not likely that either would have put down their arms to let an Orc surrender -- it was more of a "shoot first, don't even ask questions" situation with them. gregbo ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Jul 86 2100-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #194 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 18 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 194 Today's Topics: Books - Busby (2 msgs) & Kenneally & Lem & Myers (2 msgs) & Schmidt & Book Release Query & Release Answer & A Correction, Films - Books into Films & Buckaroo Banzai (2 msgs), Television - The Prisoner (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - T-Shirt Update & SF Writers Group (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Jul 86 18:28:57 GMT From: polaris!herbie@caip.rutgers.edu (Herb Chong) Subject: Re: F.M. Busby and Rissa Kergeulen KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU writes: > It is partly the same material, from a different viewpoint. It >is different material up to the time when Bran meets Rissa. If you >liked the original books, you will like these too. Rebel Seed isn't too bad. I just read it last night. If you liked his previous Rissa books, you'll like this one. Herb Chong, IBM Research... VNET,BITNET,NETNORTH,EARN: HERBIE AT YKTVMH UUCP: {allegra|cbosgd|cmcl2|decvax|ihnp4|seismo} !philabs!polaris!herbie CSNET: herbie%ibm.com@csnet-relay ARPA: herbie@ibm.com, herbie%yktvmh.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 86 14:45:54 EDT From: michael%maine.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Michael Johnson) Subject: Busby (Rissa Kerguelen) The books in the series are: "Rissa Kerguelan" (contains "Young Rissa", "Rissa and Tregare" and "The Long View") "The Alien Debt" "Rebel's Seed" (brand new) "Star Rebel" "Rebel's Quest" "Zelde M'Tana" "Rissa Kerguelan" is the central story of the series. "Star Rebel", "Rebel's Quest" and "Zelde M'Tana" take place before or overlapping "Rissa". "The Alien Debt" and "Rebel's Seed" take place after "Rissa" and involve Rissa's daughter Lisele in a major way. It has always been my impression that Busby creates very strong and believable female characters. They have minds of their own, desires, dislikes, phobias, motivations, long range plans, aggression and are emotionally complex. In short they are whole people in their own right. This is something that I think is missing from a lot of authors' treatment of female characters. Before I knew that "F.M." stands for a male name, I thought that Busby had to be female to write such characters so well. This is an impression that was shared by my sister, who is no slouch herself in the mental department. If you like to read stories that present women in a positive light, read Busby's work and especially the "Rissa" stories. Michael Johnson ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 86 22:44:23 GMT From: ucdavis!ccdbryan@caip.rutgers.edu (ccdbryan) Subject: New author? Excuse any mistakes herein, as this is my first venture into the net. I was wondering if any of the experts out there have ever heard of Patricia Kennealy. I just started to read a new book by her called The Copper Crown, first novel of The Keltiad. Does anyone have any information on Kenneally or any other novels? Bryan McDonald UCDavis ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 86 17:33:37 GMT From: slu70!guy@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: I remember Solaris! * Minor Spoiler * wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes: > It plays from time to time at 'art' theatres around the country. > It's VERY long, but has some deeply affecting scenes that aren't > in the I liked the movie as well. One thing you should be prepared for is that the pace is very slow. If you are expecting Star Wars or even 2001, you may get bored and leave. If you can adjust, the movie has a wonderful dreamlike quality that stayed with me for most of the rest of the evening. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 86 23:11:46 GMT From: ism780c!geoff@caip.rutgers.edu (Geoff Kimbrough) Subject: Re: Silverlock (was Rings) vis@trillian.UUCP (Tom Courtney) writes: >I know this is going to be heretical to some, but my favorite work >by Tolkien is his translation of Gawain and the Green Knight. I >found it extremely readable, particularly aloud, and it brought new >life to the old story. > >I'm probably a touched biased, since I had recently read John Myers >Myers' "Silverlock", with its wonderful recasting of the story from >Bertilac's point of view. `wonderful' is too shabby a word to describe _Silverlock_, but I would have to drink from the spring myself to adequately describe this book. (That's a reference, read the book) How many others out there haven't yet read this Masterpiece? (Run, don't walk, to your nearest bookstore and correct this oversight!) I could fill all the disks in Net.land with reams of praise for this book, but if you've already read Silverlock, you already know, and if you haven't, I don't want to detain you any longer. Go get it!!! Geoffrey Kimbrough INTERACTIVE Systems Corp. Santa Monica, California ihnp4!ima!geoff sdcrdcf!ism780c!geoff ucla-cs!ism780!geoff ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 86 15:17:23 GMT From: apollo!nazgul@caip.rutgers.edu (Kee Hinckley) Subject: Unfinished drinking song in "Silverlock" There is a reference in Larry Niven's forward to "Silverlock" (John Myers Myers) that states that Friar John's drinking song has been finished. Can someone post the completed version? For those who haven't seen it, here's the uncompleted song; put your mythological skullcap on. [Silverlock, John Myers Myers, C1949, 1982 Ace Books, pp225-6] Old man Zeus he kept a heifer in his yard; Hera smelled a rat and took the matter hard. She swore she would watch the varmint anyhow, Damned if she'd play second fiddle to a cow! Here's to Zeus and his hot pants! He learned to pay his debts. The more he started to explain, The more she jawed him with disdain. She wouldn't hear; it was in vain He vowed he just liked pets. Young Adonis was a handsome lad, I hear, But some parts were missing from him, as I fear; Aphrodite swung her hips and rolled her eyes. But for once she couldn't even get a rise. Here's to young Adonis, who is dead and ought to be! He chased a pig, he shot and missed, So he got killed instead of kissed. I wish that what slipped through his fist Had only come to me! Once a centaur loved a Lapithaean dame, So he thought he'd work to try to snatch the same; But that cutie didn't thank him for his pass, For she said she knew he was a horse's-- kee {yale,uw-beaver,decvax!wanginst}!apollo!nazgul Apollo Computer, Chelmsford MA. (617) 256-6600 x7587 ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 14 Jul 1986 05:26:13-PDT From: devi%lookup.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Dennis Schmidt I just finished reading two works by Dennis Schmidt, "Wayfarer" and "Kensho". I thought they were excellent. Does anyone out there know anything about the author? Having studied martial arts and eastern philosophies, I found his presentation of the two to be unique. I would like to know what Mr. Schmidt's training has been. Thanks in advance. Gita Devi ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jul 86 05:40:40 GMT From: mcb@lll-crg.ARpA (Michael C. Berch) Subject: Re: When will these books come out? Has anyone heard anything about any of these, which many of us are anxiously awaiting? Stephen King's IT and THE TOMMYKNOCKERS (why no King summer novel this year, anyway? He has been busy with "Maximum Overdrive", but that shouldn't affect the publication process). Samuel R. Delany's THE MISERY AND SPLENDOR OF BODIES, OF CITIES, which finishes the story begun in STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND. The next book in the series Joe Haldeman began with WORLDS and WORLDS APART. Any info appreciated. Michael C. Berch mcb@lll-crg.arpa lll-crg!mcb ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 86 01:18:53 GMT From: utastro!mccarthy@caip.rutgers.edu (Susan Elizabeth Hill) Subject: Re: When will these books come out? mcb@lll-crg.ARpA (Michael C. Berch) writes: > Has anyone heard anything about any of these, which many of us are > anxiously awaiting? > > Stephen King's IT Michael (and others) A signed, limited edition of IT, in German no less, has been published and was available from Underwood-Miller. I use the past tense because it was sold out before publication in this country, and my little order was returned. The mass-market edition of IT is scheduled for later this summer, but very probably will be published a little earlier-- as with SKELETON CREW and THE TALISMAN, named publishing dates mean little. Hope this helps. Richard Bleiler ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 86 17:48:30 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: Book query: _Green Eyes_ (?) >>There was a Berkely Fiction book that had, as a premise, the >>resurection people. The live dead had glowin green eyes, which is >>why I thought that that was the title; but I could be wrong. > > It was, indeed, called "Green Eyes;" the author is Lucius Shepard. Except it was Ace Books (the new line of Terry Carr "Ace Specials"). Evelyn C. Leeper ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 86 08:20 EDT From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA rael@ihlpa.UUCP writes: >What flicks would you like to see made from your favorite SF books? >(this could be interesting!) I always thought Asimov's "The Caves of Steel" would make a great movie. In fact, I recall a rumor I once heard that it was indeed being made into a film, and never heard another thing about it after that. Anyone know about this? Other excellent possibilities, film-wise: Poul Andersons "Three Hearts and Three Lions" Niven & Pournelles "Lucifers Hammer" Steven Kings "The Stand" Clarke's "Rendevous with Rama" Clarke's "Childhoods End" Zelazny's "Nine Princes in Amber" ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 1986 1529-EDT (Tuesday) From: jrodrig@EDN-VAX.ARPA (Jose Rodriguez) Subject: Yoyodyne Corp, "The Crying of Lot 49" and "Buckaroo Banzai" Hi, I hope you don't mind a non-member asking a question but I was wondering a few weeks ago about the origin of the Yoyodyne Corp. I was reading this book from the 60's by Pinchon, "The Crying of Lot 49" where this corporation appears. Is this just coincidence or could there be some truth to the rumor that Pinchon wrote the script for "Buckroo Banzai"? Sorry to bother, but thanks, oh, again, replies to me , I am not on the list, Jose jrodrig@edn-vax ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 86 01:29:27 GMT From: utastro!mccarthy@caip.rutgers.edu (Susan Elizabeth Hill) Subject: Re: Yoyodyne Corp, "The Crying of Lot 49" and "Buckaroo Subject: Banzai" According to all sources, Earl Mac Rauch wrote the screenplay for "The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai Across the Eighth Dimension," and there has never been even so much as a rumor that the reclusive and erudite Thomas Pynchon was involved. What probably happened was that Rauch read THE CRYING OF LOT 49--it is short, witty, amusing, with a delightful pastiche of a Jacobean revenge tragedy em- bedded ("The Courtier's Tragedy" by Richard Wharfinger--how's that for a play on names?!)--and liked the concept of Yoyodyne, which may or may not own the world, be involved in mysterious W.A.S.T.E. schemes, etc., etc. Another possiblity is that Rauch hasn't read Pynchon and heard the name from somebody who had read Pynchon. But it is highly unlikely that Pynchon had any hand in the movie at all . . . Richard Bleiler ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 86 12:48:03 GMT From: infinet!pz@caip.rutgers.edu (Paul Czarnecki) Subject: The Prisoner I know that the prisoner drove a Lotus Super Seven. I know that his plate read KAR-120C. What I need to know is the color. (or should I say colour?) I hope it is Silver on Black or Black on Yellow. Anybody with a VCR out there? Thanks in advance. pZ decvax!encore!munsell!pac decvax!wanginst!infinet!pz ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 86 21:15:24 GMT From: lsuc!jimomura@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Omura) Subject: Re: The Prisoner The Prisoner's Lotus was Black with a Yellow snout. I've seen a Super 7 recently. They're still beautiful looking beasts. Cheers! James Omura, Barrister & Solicitor, Toronto ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura Byte Information eXchange: jimomura (416) 652-3880 ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 11 Jul 1986 19:15-EDT From: jmturn%ringwld.UUCP@CCA.CCA.COM Subject: T-shirt update Thomas the Unclad trooped through the dense underbrush, desperately seeking that which would forever remove his bane...an SF-LOVERS T-shirt. Suddenly, a vision appeared to him, that of a glowing figure sitting in front of a kyeboard... ``Thomas,'' the mystic image said, ``your search is almost at an end. The shirt artwork and order went to the printer around the 20th of June...'' ``Verily, good sir, but when might we expect to to see this legendary item?'' ``These things are not clear to mortal men, but the shirts themselves are due back around the third week of July. It then becomes a question of how fast one man can sort and mail over 140 T-shirts...'' ``And what of my companions who sent their money too late?'' ``All orders received before the shirt count was sent to the printer will be honored. The checks received after that date were destroyed. There will be a limited number of shirts available at Worldcon on a first-come, first- served basis.'' ``And the design itself?'' ``We had to lose the attacking spaceship for reasons of layout. It now is a question of how well the fine detail in the screen display will come out...only time will tell. The art itself looks great.'' As the vision faded, Thomas smiled quietly. His quest was nearly over. James Turner ARPA ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA UUCP {decvax|sri-unix|ima|linus}!cca!ringwld!jmturn MAIL 329 Ward Street; Newton, MA 02159 ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 86 17:23:05 GMT From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: SF writers on the net. Some professional Canadian SF writers are on the net, too. Phyllis Gotlieb reads this newsgroup (she's the author of several novels from Ace, including O Master Caliban!) and yours truly, Robert J. Sawyer (my latest sale was to *Amazing* -- watch for "Uphill Climb" in an upcoming issue). We're both active members of the Science Fiction Writers of America. Donald Kingsbury, author of the Timescape novel *Courtship Rite* teaches at Montreal's McGill University. He could certainly access the net if he wanted to (and maybe already does -- are you out there, Don? Cheers, Robert J. Sawyer in Toronto c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 86 22:46:55 GMT From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) Subject: SF Writers' Group My idea is to create a mailing list of interested authors. Then, when one of the authors has a story that he or she would like critiqued, he or she would mail it to all of the authors on the list. The other authors would then read the story and mail their comments back. In this way, the overhead required to maintain the group is minimal. I would be willing to take care of the maintenance and distribution of the mailing list. After receiveing the responses, the original author would then be free to do whatever he or she wants with the story. The author could change it (or not), remail the new version to the others in the group, submit it to a print magazine, fanzine, or electronic magazine, etc. I have already heard from a few people who said that they would be interested. Send me mail if you would like your name to be added to the list. Brian Yamauchi Carnegie-Mellon University Computer Science Department ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu BITNET: q110by04@cmccvc DECNET: by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Jul 86 2126-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #195 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 18 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 195 Today's Topics: Books - Barnes & Busby & Farmer & Harrison & Heinlein (4 msgs) & Myers & Piper & Feghoot, Films - Books into Movies (2 msgs), Television - Max Headroom (2 msgs) & Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Battle Language ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Jul 86 10:16 PDT From: fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM Subject: Steven Barnes' books He also collaborated with Niven on "DESCENT OF ANANSI". Anansi is a spider in African folktales. I have STREETLETHAL and THE KUNDALINI EQUATIONS. TKE was really depressing in spots, but it was well written. I know he has written several short stories. I generally snatch up anything with his name on it. He is also an awfully good punster and dancer. Marina Fournier Arpa: <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com> ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 86 16:07:40 GMT From: petrus!purtill@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Purtill) Subject: Re: F.M. Busby and Rissa Kergeulen Another book in this series, _Rebel's_Seed_, I think, is just out. It's a direct sequel to _The_Alien_Debt_, staring Rissa and Bran's kid. You can tell Busby's running out of steam in this one (the villians are retreads from the first books) and in the note on the author at the back, Busby says its the last he'll write in this universe. It's still well worth reading if you liked the other books, but probably not a good place to start. mark purtill (201) 829-5127 Arpa: purtill@bellcore.com 435 south st 2H-307 Uucp: ihnp4!bellcore!purtill morristown nj 07960 ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 86 14:47:58 GMT From: einode!simon@caip.rutgers.edu (Simon Kenyon) Subject: when will the riverworld series end? Does anybody have any idea when the Riverworld Series (used to be trilogy...) by Farmer will end. I've been reading it for such a long time and would like an ending :-( Simon Kenyon The National Software Centre, Dublin, IRELAND +353-1-716255 ...!mcvax!ukc!einode!simon ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 1986 12:36:05-EDT From: clapper@NADC Subject: West of Eden I just finished Harry Harrison's _West_of_Eden_. I highly recommend it. The premise is intriguing and hinges on the following idea: (*** extremely mild spoiler -- almost a non-spoiler ***) Suppose millions of years ago, the dinosaurs did not die out: Instead, they evolved, and a small race of intelligent reptiles developed. Concurrently, mammalian evolution produced humans. What happens when the two races meet? (*** end spoiler ***) By the way, the jacket blurb for the hardback version contains a semi-spoiler of its own. I wish I hadn't read it before I read the book. Try to avoid The novel was well-researched and quite credible. The point of view occasionally switches between the human race and the reptile race. Harrison does a fine job of portraying the culture of each race from that race's point of view, allowing the reader to be a sympathetic observer. I was occasionally amused at some of inventions the reptiles used; they sort of reminded me of old Flintstones cartoons. These occasional impressions didn't affect the story's credibility, however. Harrison also laces the story with enough action to keep things moving at a fairly brisk pace. This book "feels" so different from the Stainless Steel Rat series that it's the Rat stories; I enjoyed them as well.) The back of the book contains some "historical" and biographical information for both races. I wish I'd stopped a third of the way through the book to read these appendices before continuing. At that point, they would have provided some useful background information without giving away information or confusing the issue. Still, I didn't really lose much by reading them last. Finally, the illustrations which appear at the beginning of each chapter are both delightful and accurate, even if the artist's conception of the various characters didn't always match mine. The book club accidentally sent me two copies of _West_of_Eden_. I'm giving second one away as a gift. Brian Clapper clapper@nadc.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 86 06:59:09 GMT From: palmer@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (David Palmer) Subject: Re: Lazarus Long, found in _The_Past... dbb@rayssdb.UUCP (David B. Bennett) writes: >Several years ago (6-10?) after having worked my way through >_Time_Enough_ _For_Love_ a friend of mine (a Heinlein fanatic) told >me that Lazarus Long appeared in a cameo position in every short >story in the book _The_Past_Through_Tomorrow:_"Future_History"_ >Stories_ in much the same way as Alfred Hitchcock appeared in the >movies he directed: a cameo position, unobtrusive, and largely >hidden - one had to look to see him. LL did mention (in Methuselah's (sp) Children) that he had been to see Dr. Pinero (of one of Heinlein's earliest stories, "Lifeline"). Dr. Pinero, took a reading on when he would die, then returned his fee without saying anything. I don't remember such an event occuring in Lifeline though. David Palmer palmer@cit-vax.edu ...seismo!cit-vax!palmer ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 86 12:57:21 EDT From: Ray <CARON@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU> Subject: heinlein In reply to Joe Yao, >wherein aliens take over one's nervous system... The name of the book you are looking for is The Puppet Masters, and the way they told the controlled from the uncontrolled was the those under alien influence had no reaction to sexual stimuli, sort of reminds you of the one scene from History Of the World Part One where the Romans are trying to flush Greggory Hines from the line of unics... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 86 09:40 CDT From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: Re: Heinlein Timelines The Heinlein novel about the aleins that take over the nervous system with the agents is The Puppet Masters. I don't specifically remember "Kettle-Belly" in it but its been 10-12 years since I read it. The other book that the poster was requesting that specifically refers to by Friday is Gulf. This is a novellette (novella?) that I have collected in a New English Library book called Assignment in Eternity. The other story in this book is one of my favorites - Elsewhen. Gulf involves a couple of agents of "Kettle-Belly"s that save the world. They are the folks that Baldwin explains to Friday are her genetic parents. (A big light went off when I read that passage, because I had not connected the stories before that.) Elsewhen is about a college professor who discovers a way through auto-hypnosis and relaxation techniques to jump into allternate dimensions. He shows his psychology class. Fun story. Brett (Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 86 22:42:31 EDT From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU> Subject: Re: Heinlein's Timelines To: "CHAPMAN@PAVEPAWS.BERKELEY.EDU"%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU From: chapman@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Brent Chapman) >The first Dr. Baldwin story is called, I believe "Assignment in >Eternity". If that's not the title of the story, that's the >collection it is in, along with "Gulf". No, the first Baldwin story is _Gulf_ itself. Baldwin isn't in _Assignment_in_Eternity_. Keith ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 86 19:26:02 GMT From: fortune!stirling@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick Stirling) Subject: Re: Silverlock >I'm probably a touched biased, since I had recently read John Myers >Myers' "Silverlock", with its wonderful recasting of the story from >Bertilac's point of view. Actually I thought 'Silverlock' was just a good book (I've already given it away). Unless it was intended to be tongue in cheek, which I didn't think it was, there were just too many other legends/stories/etc pulled in for my taste, from Ulysses (Circe & her pigs) to Dante's inferno to Beowulf. And I'm sure there were a lot I missed. I could never identify with the hero, either. The book is good, but by no means great: 2 stars out of 4. patrick {ihnp4, hplabs, amdcad, ucbvax!dual}!fortune!stirling ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jul 86 20:59:00 GMT From: mic!d25001@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Orphaned Response In the early 1950's a two part serial "Null A-B-C" by Piper and McGuire appeared in "Astounding Science Fiction". I think that it later appeared in book form but cannot be sure. I don't recall seeing it reprinted of late. Also, recent reprints of "A Planet For Texans"/"Lone Star Planet" have dropped all mention of McGuire. Does anybody on the net know the story of the Piper-McGuire collaborations. If the current edition of LSP still has some of McGuire's words in it, why no credit? If McGuire's part could be so easily excised, what function did he ever serve? Carrington Dixon UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!mic!d25001 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 86 10:07:23 EDT From: "Morris M. Keesan" <keesan@cci.bbn.com> Subject: Feghoot To: PSST001%DTUZDV1.Bitnet@ucbvax.berkeley.edu "Through Time and Space with Ferdinand Feghoot" does not identify a single work, but rather a long-running series which appeared in F&SF for some years and was then revived briefly in the short-lived revival of "Venture" magazine in the late 1960s or early '70s. The series, written by Grendel Briarton ( a pseudonym [and anagram] of Reginald Bretnor), consisted of short-short stories whose sole purpose was to set up the last line, a pun on a well-known saying. This type of story is often known generically in fannish circles as a "feghoot", and in other circles as "Father Goose" stories, or incorrectly as "shaggy dog" stories. The idea of translating one of these into German boggles the mind. There is a book containing the complete set of Feghoot stories, published by one of the fannish publishers, I believe, with illustrations by Tim Kirk. Given the above, you can see that you haven't provided enough information for anyone to help you out with the ending. However, if you'd like to send me a synopsis of the story, with your best re-translation into English of the last line, I can probably tell you what the original was. Morris ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 17 Jul 1986 05:28:23-PDT From: vesper%3d.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Andy V DTN 296-5745 ) Subject: SF Movies For a movie for the young (and the young at heart), how about Tom Swift Jr.? The opening credits could have Tom and his friends driving along a highway, coming to a traffic jam. Tom pushes a button and the car rises in the air and starts flying over all the stopped cars. (Obviously I thought of this while driving to work this morning.) Andy V ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 86 16:00:39 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: books -> movies Not necessarily my first choice, but arguably the best choice wrt capturing the nature of the book on-screen: WAY STATION, by Simak. Some interesting effects, lots of pages of scenery that could be condensed enough that the book wouldn't have to be cut significantly (which it shouldn't be---everything in it is integral to the story. Unfortunately, there seems to be a belief that pastorals and SF movies don't mix (or at least that SF must have lots of action....) And I'm surprised that vis@trillian hasn't mentioned THE BIG TIME, by Fritz Leiber. It was written by a former actor, from an acting family, in the form of a play, and is one hell of a drama; many of the inner explanations can be expounded as indoctrination of the "new girl". The nihilism might be less than appetizing to a film public that seems to expect either heroes (however reluctant) or clowns (however unappetizing). ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 86 15:00:49 GMT From: druky!sch@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Higgins) Subject: Max Headroom origin (?) As I have heard mentioned earlier, I too remember seeing this Max Headroom character in a movie about "blipverts" with a more specific subject of subliminal advertising. I don't recall it being one hour long but I specifically remember the box & Max Headroom. It seemed everyone was trying to get this box because of some great feeling or fantasic technology. The setting I remember is the future and the city was run down and trashed. Kind of had a "Mad Max" or "Escape From New York" tone to it (the setting). But the real reason for this posting is that it was mentioned that this was first aired on channel 4 18 months ago. I remember seeing this movie here in the states around THREE years ago on pay television. By the by, I am still waiting for someone to come up with the title of this movie. I would appreciate it. G'Day, Steve AT&T Information Systems 11900 North Pecos Street Denver, Colorado 80234 (303) 538-4779 S. C. Higgins Room 30e78 e-mail ...ihnp4!druky!sch ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 86 17:41:46 GMT From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott) Subject: Re: Max Headroom origin (?) If you did then that's pretty damn clever of you 'cos I KNOW it was made for English television (channel 4 to be precise) no more than 2 years ago. The original pilot really was an hour long, and, truth be told, the actual (electronic) character of Max Headroom was a rather irrelevant part of the whole story, though it was the tale of his creation. It sounds like you've got the atmosphere of the thing right, though I've never seen Escape from NY (and have no real desire to judging by its reputation), and I would prefer to compare it to the classic Blade Runner. Incidentally, the ONLY thing that it has in common with Mad Max is part of its title, I mean, come on, you may as well compare 2001 with Star Wars, just because they've both got spaceships. As to its latest airing: Cinemax, July 3rd. > By the by, I am still waiting for someone to come up with the > title of this movie. I would appreciate it. The title, surprise, surprise, is MAX HEADROOM. Ta, Daa. ------------------------------ Date: Thu 17 Jul 86 13:10:55-PDT From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@su-sierra.arpa> Subject: Star Trek new TV series 20th Century Fox is trying to start a fourth nationwide TV network. (So is Turner, but that is another story). The rumor is that 20th Century Fox has (about to) contract with Paramount for a new Star Trek TV series. It would be guaranteed 16 episodes (rather than normal TV 6 episodes) and no pilot program. There will be an all new cast for the series, with current major characters doing cameo appearances and current minor characters doing entire shows as guests. (Now if they could just get some real science fiction writers to do some good scripts :-) Randy neff@sierra.stanford.edu ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 86 17:41:28 GMT From: ihwpt!knudsen@caip.rutgers.edu (mike knudsen) Subject: Battle Language -- DUNE invention? > One topic which has been explored by a number of authors is the > idea of the Klingons having a Battle Language which is used during > combat. It is a crude one at best, being used to issue orders and > speed the actions of combat. Interesting -- the novel (and recent movie) "Dune" by Frank Herbert also had the various "tribes" using Battle Language (same name) with the same nature and purpose as described above. Since _Dune_ came out about 1966, same year as ST went on the air, it's hard to accuse anybody of ripping off the other. On the other hand, since BL seems not to have made it into the ST universe until some rather recent novels (not the TV show or even the movies), it looks like the ST novelists got the idea from Herbert. I won't say they "stole" it. Let's just say that Battle Language is yet another concept that has become part of the SF vocabulary, like time travel, faster-than-lite, ray guns, and transporters. But Frank Herbert gets the credit for inventing it, unless someone comes up with an earlier author. Mike J Knudsen ...ihnp4!ihwpt!knudsen ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Jul 86 2146-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #196 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 19 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 196 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Jul 86 17:27:15 EDT From: FULIGIN%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Peter E. Lee) Subject: A theory on Tom Bombadil Having just re-read LOTR (preceded by "The Silmarillion" and "The Hobbit"), I have another theory as to the identity of Tom Bombadil. Rather than being one of the Maiar, as some people have theorised, or one of the children of Illuvatar my guess is that he is merely (?) an aspect of the song of the Ainur incarnate. He, like the trees and grass and animals seems to be an integral part of middle earth. This theory, to me at least, explains his reverance for and communion with all of nature, and the inability of the ring to have power over him - it was created to dominate the children of Illuvatar, and he is not one. It also explains his presence at the waking of the elves - he was there when the song was first given substance. Of course if Tolkien ever directly stated the origin of Bombadil, then my reading is obviously wrong, but I don't seem to have heard a concrete explanation of who/what he was yet in this discussion, and this explanation makes a good deal of sense to me... Regaurding the ability of the Orcs to choose goodness over evil (I must appologize to the originator of the query for not remembering their name), given Tolkien's clear statement in the forward to LOTR that he 'courteously dislikes' allegory and hidden meanings in fiction, and that there are none intentionally placed in his books. Why should we assume, therefore, that all creatures in middle earth MUST be given a choice of paths? If the author is not trying to make such statements, then I see no reason to assume that we can or should make such generalizations about his works. Finally, I have really enjoyed the current discussion of the series - it was in part responsible for my latest return to middle earth, and it has added something to the experience to see so many other people's interpretations of the series. Peter E. Lee Fuligin%Umass.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 86 14:29:31 GMT From: sunybcs!lazarus@caip.rutgers.edu (Daniel G. Winkowski) Subject: Re: How much did Sauron control? >> Saruman was also a Maia, and he died of a couple of hobbits' >arrows, I beg your pardon. didn't Wormtongue finally crack under >Saruman's abuse and slit the wizard's throat when they were leaving >the Shire? > >agreed, a trivial correction at best... your point is well taken... >evidently a Maia is quite mortal. Saruman as a Maia? I thought he was numbered among the Istar; longlived but mortal! What was the origin of the Istar anyhow? Dan Winkowski @ SUNY Buffalo Computer Science (716-636-2193) UUCP: ..![bbncca,decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath]!sunybcs!lazarus CSNET: lazarus@Buffalo.CSNET ARPA: lazarus%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 86 02:03:54 GMT From: gds@sri-spam.ARPA (The lost Bostonian) Subject: Evil in Tolkien not understanding good MRC@PANDA writes: > Elsewhere, Tolkien makes it quite clear that part of the > nature of evil is that it cannot understand good, which was one of > the main weapons Gandalf, Galadriel, etc. had against Sauron. > They all knew what Sauron was up to but Sauron had no way of > understanding their plans. I believe Tolkien said that evil, Morgoth specifically, cannot understand mercy. Morgoth did not expect the Valar to return to Middle-Earth to do battle with him and his armies because he did not believe that the Valar cared any more about the exiles. Morgoth did in fact understand much of what was going on in Middle-Earth -- he was able to manipulate quite a few individuals (the best example being the family of Hurin). He just did not think the Valar would forgive the Elves, so he did not pay much attention to the small outpost of Elves at Sirion's mouth, nor did he pay much attention to the comings and goings of Earendil, and had already deemed that the Silmaril he lost would pay for the end of the Elves in Middle-Earth. Even if he paid attention to the fact that Earendil and Elwing found the secret way back to Valinor, he did not believe the Valar would pardon Elves and Men. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 86 19:45:58 GMT From: harry@ucbarpa.Berkeley.EDU (Harry I. Rubin) Subject: Re: And again, rings friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes: >Sauron didn't gain dominion over the last remaining Balrog becasue >they were essentially *equal*, both being Maiar. Friesen seems to be claiming that Sauron and the Balrog of Moria were equal in power, due to their origins. But Gandalf nearly faced down the Balrog, and did defeat it in combat (admittedly at great cost to himself). If Sauron and the Balrog were equal in power, why wouldn't Gandalf just cruise into Mordor and have a showdown with Sauron? I am sure that Gandalf would gladly have given his life to defeat Sauron. Yet Gandalf never even contemplates such an action, and from his words and acts it is clear that he considers Sauron to be extremely powerful, far more than he himself is. So Sauron is far more powerful than Gandalf, and Gandalf is slightly more powerful than the Balrog. So clearly Sauron is far more powerful than the Balrog. This leads to two questions: given the same origins why is one far more powerful, and why has Sauron not dominated or enslaved the Balrog? With regard to the first, Sauron has purposefully gone out and accumulated power. This has been his occupation for Ages. This is what he does and he's good at it. The Balrog has spent a lot of time dormant. Even aside from that, I get the feeling that the Balrog is a "bully" who likes to dominate and push people around because it's big and strong, whereas Sauron is a a "mastermind" or "plotter" type. Naturally Sauron would acquire power whereas the bully Balrog would simply remain physically strong. Why hasn't Sauron enslaved the Balrog? There are many possible reasons, probably the real reason is some combination of these. Sauron may not have been aware of the Balrog; after all it was underground, not doing a lot. Or the Balrog may have been doing pretty much what Sauron would have wanted it to do, so why should he waste time and effort on it. Or it could be that the Balrog, while less powerful than Sauron, was powerful enough that it would have required a major effort for Sauron to dominate it, an effort he could not afford at the time. Comments? ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 86 16:00:16 GMT From: fisher!larsen@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael Larsen) Subject: Re: Was Westernesse "Atlantis"? > From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> >(I am not saying that the identity was not there -- I don't know >either There is at least circumstantial evidence for the identification. In _That_ _Hideous_Strength_, C.S. Lewis alludes to "the Atlantean circle" and "Numinor," apparently as synonyms. Lewis also says somewhere that his "Numinor" is based on work which Tolkien read aloud at meetings of the Inklings. (This may explain the odd spelling.) ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 86 02:37:19 GMT From: uvm-gen!king@caip.rutgers.edu (John King) Subject: Re: Re: Moral Choice in LOTR pete@stc.UUCP (Peter Kendell) writes: >It always struck me as a flaw in the book that all the characters >or groups except one get the opportunity to make the choice >between Good and Evil. > >The missing group is the Orcs. > >Is this because they were Sauron's creation and hence wholly evil? >It still seems wrong, though, that they are given no chance to >repent, or even to choose. The orcs were not Sauron's creation. They were created by Melkor (Morgoth). Actually, if you want to get technical about things, Orcs were first created by Iluvatar, he who created all things (The Silmarillion). Orcs first came to Middle Earth as Elves, but they were corrupted into their present form by Melkor. No, I guess they didn't have a lot of say in the matter... John King ...!decvax!dartvax!uvm-gen!king The University of Vermont ------------------------------ Date: 0 0 00:00:00 EDT From: <mende@aim.rutgers.edu> Subject: Yes Nick, There is a Tolkien Society The Tolkien Society in the United States is the Mythopeic Society. It's devoted to the study of JRR Tolkein, CS Lewis, and Charles Williams. Subscriptions to ytheir jorunal, _Mythlore_ makes you a member. They may be obtained by writing to: Mr Lee Speth Orders Dept. 1008 N. Montery St. Alhamnbra, CA 91801 There is also a Tolkien Society in England, and again, Subscription to their journal, _Mallora_, Constitutes membership. You can obtain information by writing to: Mr. Chris Oakey Membership Secretary, The Tolkien Society Flat 5 357 High St. Chetlenham Glos, GL50 3HT England. BTW, The annual conference of the Mythopoeic Society, MYTHCON XVII, is Aug. 8-11 at Calf. State Univ at Long Beach. This year's topic: The Figure of beatrice (Women in Fantasy) and the Charles Williams Centennial. Also papers & discussions groups on JRRT, CSL, and a Masquerade banquet. Info by contacting: 17th Annual Mythopoic Conference c/o Prof. Peter Lowentrout McIntosh Humanities Bldg. Room 619 California State Univ. Long Beach, CA 90840 I believe registration begins @ 3:00 on 8/8. Lisa Ann Mende ARPA: MENDE@AIM.RUTGERS.EDU UUCP: {anywhere}!caip!aim!mende ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 86 17:59:56 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Accuracy re Saruman's death Sorry, blew it again. Saruman was indeed killed by Wormtongue: having mocked him, betrayed him, and kicked him in the face, Saruman then turned his back on him to leave Bag End (either supremely confident, or amazingly stupid), and that did it. Scratch one Maia, in a most undignified fashion. It was in fact Wormtongue who was killed by the arrows immediately afterward. Alastair Milne PS. I've heard it suggested that Saruman's "spirit", or whatever it was that rose above his corpse, was begging forgiveness of Elbereth (or the Valar in general) in the West, and being denied, was blown away and ended at last. I know of no evidence beyond the appearance of what the hobbits saw, which must have been brief and hard to follow; but it does sound conceivable at least. Would anybody care to comment? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 86 18:19:12 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Classifying as Vala or Maia > It doesn't in do so *explicitely*, but it is made clear >indirectly. First, when she is introduced in the Silmarillion it is >stated that she was "a spirit of evil that came from Outside". >Second, all spirits from Outside(i.e. beyond Ea) were either Maiar >or Valr, and she most clearly was *not* a Vala. QED, she was a >Maia. Please be more cautious in stating what was and wasn't. The Silmarillion says that certain Ainur entered Ea, who were then known as the Valar; others also entered, who were called Maiar. However, it does not say that these were all, that there were no others. Even the Maiar are first mentioned only comparatively late: somebody reading only the first part of the Music of the Ainulindale (sp?) might believe that the Valar alone were Ainur from Outside. What others may simply not have been mentioned? There is also Jeff Dalton's excellent point that this far back in time, we have nothing but legend to go by. By the Third Age, I doubt if even the oldest Elves (Cirdan, for instance, who was among the Elves who answered the invitation of the Valar) could say with certainty what parts of the creation legends were fact, and what parts myth. I am not denying that Ungoliant may have been a Maia; but I certainly am denying that we have adequate reliable information to make a definite classification. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 86 19:07:49 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Who was Tom Bombadil? franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >Personally, I am inclined to believe that Bombadil was Iluvatar, >at least in some sense. The quote above is explained very easily: >the speaker does not know who Bombadil is (this is admitted), and >so underestimates his power. Sarima responds: > I sincerely doubt it, there are other passages that indicate >that Bombadil is a limited, not an infinite being. Like when the >Hobbits ask if the land belongs to him, and are told that nobody >owns the land. I rather think that he is a Maia in his *original* >state, not "humanized" like Gandalf and the wizards. Goldberry (and who might she be, hmmmm?) tells Frodo that for Tom to master all his land "would indeed be a burden". If he were Iluvatar, he would not only be the land's master, but its creator, and mastery of it could scarcely be a burden. >He seems to date back to the time when the Valar and Maiar dwelt in >Middle Earth, before they moved to Aman. I believe that he simply >decided he didn't want to leave, and continued to wander around >Middle Earth on his own. I have difficulties with this. Firstly, though the Silmarillion indicates that Valinor itself was not built for some time, I don't recall the Valar or the Maiar actually living in Middle Earth (excluding a couple of Valar who were virtually part of Middle Earth). Secondly, though certain Maiar certainly liked to wander in it, living there would have been difficult with the continual havoc that Melkor wrought, trying to undo everything the other Valar did. However, if you want to consider that he settled rather later in the place where the Old Forest would later stand isolated, I think there's time available there: wasn't the Maia Orome fond of hunting trips in Middle Earth for quite a considerable time before he discovered that the Elves had awoken? Even if this is mostly just legend, it seems safe to assume that there was a long period of relative calm in Middle Earth before the Elves awoke, and Bombadil (whether Maia or not) could have settled down then. >This would indeed make him Eldest, since he *was* there before any >of the Children of Illuvatar, and he had no father, having come >from Outside. It would indeed. Though to be evenhanded, one should also consider that "Fatherless" was actually part of the Elves' name for him, and may or may not have been accurate. In fact, given the broad variety of Maiar in whose existence we can have confidence, the hypothesis that Bombadil was one seems perfectly reasonable to me. I might even hazard a guess that Goldberry was also a Maia, originally serving the water Valar (whose name escapes me just now). For myself, though, I prefer to have Bombadil unclassified (my preference, as opposed to what I only find reasonable). I find that tidying unexplained matters into conveniently available categories tends to deprive them of some of their richness. Personally, I'd sooner have Bombadil marvellous and unexplained than "yet another Maia; we already know about those". And (in a different way, obviously) I think the same could be said of Shelob. Alastair Milne PS. Given the liklihood of finding any further indication either way, I think neither viewpoint is in danger of running up against contrary evidence. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 86 21:11:09 GMT From: wdl1!jrb@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: How much did Sauron control? The Istari were Maiar who had taken on forms of flesh (which could be killed) and were sent into Middle-Earth to aid in the fight against Sauron. They were more limited in power because of the fleshly forms. After Gandalf's death (of the body he was in) he returns with enhanced powers and a new body. It is likely that in his form as Gandalf the White he could have easily defeated the Balrog. John R Blaker ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Jul 86 0829-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #197 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 22 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 197 Today's Topics: Books - Bova & Farmer & Harrison & Heinlein (4 msgs) & May & Piper & The Eye of Argon & Has it Been Done?, Television - The Prisoner & Max Headroom (3 msgs) & Star Trek, Miscellaneous - WorldCon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Jul 86 08:59:39 PDT From: chuq@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) To: ihnp4!arcom!mkaplan@SUN.COM Subject: Shrugging off Bova... >by Ben Bova. (Whenever I say his name to friends, I only get a >shrug -- is it me or them??????). It's them. Ben Bova is a good journeyman writer that seems to be overshadowed by that fact that he was also a good journeyman editor. His latest work, _Voyagers II: The Alien Within_ (Tor Books, hardback) is pretty good. I've also recently re-read _The Dueling Machine_, which I think is his classic work. Bova has, by the way, gotten back into editing. He's doing a line of books for Tor called _Ben Bova's Discoveries_ that will be a series of lesser known or newer authors. Primarily for the first novel of people publishing short works or early novels of people published and ignored by other houses. The first books should be out in about a year -- it definitely looks promising. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 86 12:09:42 GMT From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin) Subject: Re: when will the riverworld series end? simon@einode.UUCP (Simon Kenyon) writes: >does anybody have any idea when the riverworld series (used to be >trilogy...) by Farmer will end. i've been reading it for such a >long time and would like an ending :-( I thought the series ended with "Gods of Riverworld". Am I wrong? If I am, can somebody tell me what books I've missed? Thanks in advance, Jim Gavin. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 86 14:19:56 GMT From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (S. Luke Jones) Subject: Re: West of Eden (also RAH) > I just finished Harry Harrison's _West_of_Eden_. I highly > recommend it. > > The novel was well-researched and quite credible. The point of > view occasionally switches between the human race and the reptile > race. Harrison does a fine job of portraying the culture of each > race from that race's point of view, allowing the reader to be a > sympathetic observer. I was occasionally amused at some of > inventions the reptiles used; Brian Clapper I thought it was pretty good too, if for no other reason than the portrayal of stone-to-bronze age man. As for the reptiles and their inventions: if anybody out there has read both _West of Eden_ and Robert A. Heinlein's _Space Cadet_, I'd like to hear your views on several unlikely parallels between the amphibious Venerians of the latter and the intelligent earth-reptiles of the former. (E.g. without spoiling this for someone who's read neither, the method of doing technological things and the division of labor by sex.) Luke Jones ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 86 19:15:27 GMT From: sas!jcz@caip.rutgers.edu (Carl Zeigler) Subject: Re: Lazarus Long, found in _The_Past... In Robert Heinlein's book The Past Through Tomorrow, there is one story about a fellow who invents this machine that can tell when you will die. You stick your head in it and out pops the answer. He sets up a storefront establishment and charges people a fee. One day this jaunty red haired type walks in and puts his money down and sticks his head in the machine. The machine burps, humms, dials whizzzz, bells bing. The inventor takes the answer, looks at it, returns the redhead's money and says ( with an odd expression ), "here, take your manoey, the machine must be broken." The story then goes on with the main plot and etc. Of course, this customer is none other than Lazarus Long. In Time Enough For Love, LL tells one of his daughters/clones how he once went to this fortune teller who could say when you would die, but the guy wouldn't tell him for some reason. John Carl Zeigler SAS Institute Inc. Cary, NC 27511 (919) 467-8000 ...!mcnc!rti-sel!sas!jcz ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 86 14:25:06 GMT From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Lazarus Long, found in _The_Past... Nice story. Too bad it's not in the book. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 86 20:11:00 GMT From: inmet!brianu@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Lazarus Long, found in _The_Past... > I seem to recall that LL mentions he once had his "Lifeline" read > and that the researcher (I forget his name) refused to tell LL > what his life expectancy was. I don't recall where I read this, > does anyone know if/where this appears? I don't remember for sure, but I think this is related in TEFL. The researcher was named Pinero (I think) and appears in a story from The Past through Tomorrow. It may even have been called "Lifeline". Brian Utterback Intermetrics Inc. 733 Concord Ave. Cambridge MA. 02138. (617) 661-1840 UUCP: {cca!ima,ihnp4}!inmet!brianu Life: UCLA!PCS!Telos!Cray!I**2 ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 86 17:17:18 GMT From: ihlpl!chrise@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Edmonds) Subject: The Cat Who Walks Thru Walls (One opinion) I don't normally write reviews...and the content of this posting isn't really intended to be one...but it might be construed as such. This is in specific response to someone who posted a request a couple of weeks ago for advice appropriate for making a decision as to whether to buy TCWWTW in hardcover. Dissenting opinions are welcome. So if you don't want to read this brief "gripe" (not a spoiler), now is the time to get out..... The Cat Who Walks Through Walls I love Heinlien. I think he is my favorite SF author. I don't buy books in hardcover so my wife knows that when gift time comes around she is always safe buying the latest HRH book if it isn't available in softcover yet. I also like cats (we have three) so I sat down and polished off TCWWTW immediately. I was very disappointed. It doesn't meet the promise of the title until very late in the book. The premise is very weak. The plot line is a rehash of "lets bounce around the Universes a little more" that we have seen so often in other LL genera books. It was short and I found it only moderately entertaining. In my view it was a formula book written to make a buck with no redeeming SciFi (sic) value. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't a bad book, but I would never use it as a model for HRH's style and talents. I have since reread the book thinking it was my state of mind at the time which colored my opinions. It wasn't. I still didn't find it to be the all engrossing, mentally stimulating work that other HRH work has been. Chris Edmonds AT&T Something-or-Other, Naperville, IL ...!ihnp4!ihlpl!chrise ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 86 05:03:00 GMT From: ccvaxa!wombat@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Silverlock (was Rings) If you thought *Silverlock* dragged in too many myths/legends, by all means avoid Julian May's Pleistocene series. I barely made it through the first book alive. Aiken Drum, fercryinoutloud! Wombat ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 18 Jul 1986 10:11:08-PDT From: vesper%3d.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Andy V DTN 296-5745 ) Subject: Lesser known works by Piper From: kalash@ingres.Berkeley.EDU.ARPA (Joe Kalash) > Crisis in 2140 [1957] > Murder in the Gunroom [1953] I thought I had all of Piper's works, but these two were new to me. I found a reference to "Murder" in the introduction to "The Worlds of H. Beam Piper". It was described as his only detective story, and therefore I will not expend much energy to find it. I found a mention of "Crisis in 2140" on the "other books by Piper published by Ace" page of my copy of "Little Fuzzy", but of course there was no description. What is the story about? Is it SF or something different? (I assume SF from the title.) Thanks, Andy V ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 86 08:51:53 PDT From: chuq@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) To: amd!sco!ericg@SUN.COM Subject: Eye of Argon Eye of Argon is available on the BBS SCI-FIDO (415) 655-0667, a Science Fiction oriented BBS. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 86 16:36:39 GMT From: derek@rsch.wisc.edu (Derek Zahn) Subject: Has this been done? I have been trying to fit together a bunch of ideas for a novel, and I am wondering if the following (or something similar) has already been done: Each chapter of the novel is titled and represented by one of the Tarot trumps, and the major themes of that chapter have to do with the meaning of the card. It will focus on an interpretation of the Trump sequence as stages of existence in a path to "enlightenment" but will also use some of the more common interpretations of the cards. Any information would be most welcome, as I would hate to get to the point where plot, characters, etc, all seemed to be working together well only to have the underlying structure removed because it's been done. Thanks in advance. Derek Zahn @ wisconsin {allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,sfwin,ucbvax,uwm-evax}!uwvax!derek derek@wisc-rsch.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 86 22:50:08 GMT From: eneevax!hsu@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Hsu) Subject: Re: The Prisoner jimomura@lsuc.UUCP (Jim Omura) writes: > The Prisoner's Lotus was Black with a Yellow snout. I've seen >a Super 7 recently. They're still beautiful looking beasts. Uh oh, time to adjust the TV. The Prisoner is shown on Maryland Public TV Sundays at 11 pm, and it looks to me that his car is dark green with a yellow snout. Odd, the car driven by the gent in the top hat looks perfectly ordinarily black to me, so I have no idea how it could be black. Does anybody remember the engine block serial number quoted in the episode "Many Happy Returns"? David Hsu (301) 454-1433 || -8798 Communication & Signal Processing Lab Engineering Computer Facility The University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 ARPA:hsu@eneevax.umd.edu UUCP:[seismo,allegra,rlgvax]!umcp-cs!eneevax!hsu ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 86 10:59:31 GMT From: woolstar@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (John D Woolverton) Subject: Re: Max Headroom on David Letterman brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes: >I heard Max Headroom will appear on Late Night with David Letterman >soon. (In fact, I think it's tonight) Live and in the phospher (with slight technical dificulties) Max made a great appearance, including jokes, a plug for his show, and a song. J Woolverton (woolstar@csvax.caltech.edu) ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 86 22:56:46 GMT From: bambi!steve@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Miller) Subject: Re: Max Headroom (question) >> As I have heard mentioned earlier, I too remember seeing >> this Max Headroom character in a movie about "blipverts"... > ...the actual (electronic) character of Max Headroom... There is currently a music video on MTV with Max Headroom as the only performer. The VJ calls this computer graphics, and many claims that Max is a computer synthetic have been made. I've been a computer animator for years, and I claim that Max is NOT a computer graphic (at least, not the portrayal currently on MTV). The technology won't support it, and there are many "giveaways" in the tape I saw. Can anyone confirm or deny this (WITH CITATIONS!) ? Steve ihnp4!bellcore!bambi!steve ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 86 15:29:16 GMT From: druky!sch@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Higgins) Subject: Re: Re: Max Headroom origin (?) tmca@utastro.UUCP writes: > If you did then that's pretty damn clever of you 'cos I KNOW it > was made for English television (channel 4 to be precise) no more > than 2 years ago. Slow down, eh! I had no idea someone would be SO offended by such an innocent request. Maybe three years was an exaggeration (a gross one according to you!). That point in time (2 to 3 years ago) is pretty much lost to me so I don't recall anything too accurately. It is quite possible that it was the summer of '84. You are right. > got the atmosphere of the thing right, though I've never seen > Escape from NY (and have no real desire to judging by its > reputation).... Sounds like your source of information on the quality of movies is quite lacking (no offense, you have a right to an opinion no matter how fair your derivation was). > .....and I would prefer to compare it to the classic Blade > Runner.... I completely agree! The setting in "Blade Runner" reminds me exactly of the show that I saw (the main reason I posted to the net instead of responding by mail). I also agree that "Blade Runner" was classic. Maybe you should see "Escape From New York" and make your own judgement. > the ONLY thing that it has in common with Mad Max is part of its > title, I mean, come on, you may as well compare 2001 with Star > Wars, just because they've both got spaceships. The reason for this comparison was to describe a SETTING. "Mad Max" was in the future (??!?!?) and had a feeling of desolation and waste, this is what I had recalled from "Max Headroom." I agree that it was a poor comparison and should be withdrawn. "Blade Runner" makes my point exactly. Maybe I should have referred to ALL of the Mad Max movies. > The title, surprise, surprise, is MAX HEADROOM. Ta, Daa. Surprise? As you mentioned, Max Headroom seemed to play an insignificant part in the show. So it wasn't obvious. Especially since I recall so little (the setting & Max) from the show. I could have understood the rudeness if this was common knowledge. BUT since yours is the only reply, I couldn't regard it as common knowledge and couldn't understand your tone. If it is common knowledge I would have to assume that the lack of response was due to the lack of importance. If that is the case, I still can't understand being rude. G'Day, Steve AT&T Information Systems 11900 North Pecos Street Denver, Colorado 80234 (303) 538-4779 S. C. Higgins Room 30e78 ...ihnp4!druky!sch ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 86 17:16:40 GMT From: unirot!halloran@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Halloran) Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series NEFF@su-sierra.arpa writes: >The rumor is that 20th Century Fox has (about to) contract with >Paramount for a new Star Trek TV series. It would be guaranteed 16 >episodes (rather than normal TV 6 episodes) and no pilot program. > >There will be an all new cast for the series, with current major >characters doing cameo appearances and current minor characters >doing entire shows as guests. Won't these studio morons LEARN?!?! The idea of recasting the crew came up for ST I (The Motion Sickness). The fannish outrage caused them to reconsider. This was what got us Decker, etc. as they tried to phase in a replacement crew. We all know how far THAT got. A good portion of Trek's continuing popularity is the identification with the crew members. Expect this one to sink fast. For those interested in expressing their distaste through correspondence: 20th Century Fox Publicity, P O Box 900, Beverly Hills CA 90213 (from trying to encourage the Buckaroo Banzai sequel). Bob Halloran, Consultant UUCP: topaz!caip!unirot!halloran USPS: 19 Culver Ct, Old Bridge NJ 08857 DDD: (201)251-7514 ATTmail: RHALLORAN ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 86 21:13:27 GMT From: usc-oberon!bishop@caip.rutgers.edu (Brian Bishop) Subject: Re: WORLDCON Could someone please post the relevant info [exact date & place, address] for Worldcon? (yes, as a matter of fact I HAVE been living in a cave for the past year and a half - what's it to you?) Thanks..... Brian Bishop Bishop@Usc-Ecl Bishop@Usc-Oberon {uscvax,sdcvdef,engvax,scgvaxd,smeagol}!oberon!bishop ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Jul 86 0851-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #198 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 22 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 198 Today's Topics: Books - King, Films - Back to the Future & Aliens (5 msgs), Miscellaneous - SF Writers & Battle Language (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Jul 86 05:52:16 GMT From: mcb@lll-crg.ARpA (Michael C. Berch) Subject: Re: When will these books come out? mccarthy@utastro.UUCP (Richard Bleiler) writes: > A signed, limited edition of IT, in German no less, has been > published and was available from Underwood-Miller for something > like $120.00, maybe less. I use the past tense because it was > sold out before publication in this country, and my little order > was returned. The mass-market edition of IT is scheduled for > later this summer, but very probably will be published a little > earlier-- as with SKELETON CREW and THE TALISMAN, named publishing > dates mean little. Thanks. Stephen King was on a radio program in San Francisco last week plugging "Maximum Overdrive". He said that IT would be "out in September", presumably meaning the US trade edition. Michael C. Berch mcb@lll-crg.arpa lll-crg!mcb ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 86 14:26:04 -0200 From: Eyal mozes <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA> Subject: Re: Back to the Future Well, I DID see "to be continued" at the end of the theater showing. I saw the version exported to Israel (and *groan* about 6 months later than you guys), so maybe it was just cut out, for some mysterious reason, from the version played inside the U.S.A. Anyway, I think the ending obviously calls for a sequel. About two months ago, an Israeli magazine ran a feature article on Spielberg. They specifically mentioned that he's planning to produce "Back to the Future II"; but they gave no details. Eyal Mozes BITNET: eyal@wisdom CSNET and ARPA: eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA UUCP: ..!ucbvax!eyal%wisdom.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 86 10:45:05 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Bughunt! Bottom line (actually, top line, I guess): Definitely worth seeing. Abbreviated review: Despite the script being basicly a carbon-copy of its predecessor's, ALIENS succeeds in its thrills and chills. It's well acted, written, directed, and photographed. A very worthy follow-up to Ridley Scott's ALIEN. Plot Summary: Ripley (Sigourney Weaver) and Jones, still in cold sleep, are finally picked up and brought back to Earth --- 57 years later. "The Company" plays at not knowing about the Alien and accuses her of willfully destroying the NOSTROMO and its crew, though obviously they don't have any evidence to formally charge her. In the meantime, a colony has been set up by the Company ostensibly to terraform the world where the Alien was found. Sometime after Ripley's return, all communication with that colony was lost, and the Company persuades Ripley to accompany, as a consultant, a small military force to the planet to find out what happened. Of course, what they find there is a whole nest of Aliens. The rest of the film is taken up by the small war between the Colonial Marines and the Aliens. Detailed review: ***** Here There Be Spoilers ***** The usual problem with most sequels is that they more often than not are little more than derivative, pale imitations of the originals. The bad news is, as I mentioned above, that ALIENS is very much the same in many plot details as ALIEN. The good news, though, is that while it may be derivative, it's certainly not pale. There are many parallels from the first film to the second, and this often gets in the way of the story. you know just what's going to happen at many points in the film, because you've seen it before. And yet, ALIENS director James (THE TERMINATOR) Cameron manages to keep the suspense going. Other than this parallelism, I see two major problems with the film. The first is that they is no sense of futurity in the characters. They are all basicly 20th-Century types transplanted into the future. The second major problem is a lack of time sense. One can infer that Ripley's debriefing provided information for the Company to send the colonists out looking for the alien derelict, which ended up as the obvious downfall of the colony, and thus, that it was months after Ripley's return that the colony goes south. However, this is not clear in the film, and it seems as if there is a remarkable coincidence that the colony (which has been on the planet for quite some time) should have a pest-control problem just as Ripley reaches Earth. I also had some problems at the beginning with the characters of the Marines, but this went away as the movie progressed and the people grew as characters. And that's one of the film's strengths. Few of the "grunts" are faceless Alien-food; most are very distinct individuals that you begin to admire, even while they aren't particularly nice people. Paul Reiser plays the token sleezebag Company-man, and plays him well. Michael (THE TERMINATOR) Biehn does a marvelous job as a Marine corporal who finds himself in charge of the squad. He doesn't play Hicks as a Rambo-type hero, but as a competent but very soft-spoken man. And Sigourney Weaver does as good a job here as she did in ALIEN. Ripley is a very strong, capable, decisive, and, above all, heroic character. The special effects are wonderful. As in ALIEN, they are pretty much kept in the background rather than paraded out one after the other. There are some rear-projection shots that are almost unnoticible, model movements that are very smooth and realistic. The pride and joy is the exo-skeleton, about which I shall say no more. There are some problems with the movement of the Aliens as they scamper around, but the close-up shots are as good as in the first film, though Cameron wisely uses quick cuts and murky lighting to keep the menacing appearance of the Aliens from diminishing by over-exposure. Few sequels really measure up to their predecessors. The Mad Max films did, THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK did, and ALIENS does. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 86 09:41:35 GMT From: turtlevax!hamachi@caip.rutgers.edu (Gordon Hamachi) Subject: Alien(s), the Sequel Aliens (the sequel), starring Sigourney Weaver, directed by James Cameron. Story by James Cameron et. al. Screenplay by James Cameron. Pico review: 3 out of 4 stars. Nano review: Rambo meets The Creature. At least they're not shooting-up Asians this time. In fact, one guy shoots himself up. Did anyone see the Statue of Liberty ceremonies, with the 200 Elvis Presley impersonators live on stage? Imagine! Can't get an original, classy act? No problem, just replicate the same old thing over and over. Well, now they've really gone and done it! Sigourney (Alien) Weaver reappears as (believe it or not) Ripley, sole survivor of Alien (the original). James (the Terminator) Cameron directs yet another classy action shoot-em-up. Michael (the Terminator) Biehn seems stuck in a rut as the soldier of the future who is cool and capable, who but ultimately gets dragged around by tougher and more capable women. Space marines do the cyborg shuffle, mechanically scanning the scenery and bursting into rapid fire action, to the point where you'd think they were Arnold ("Give me your clothes") Schwartzenegger impersonators. Ripley strips down to her underwear. What's new in this movie, compared to the original? Well, just look at how original the new title is! Deja vu! No, I take that back. No burning TV sets. No dogs sniffing soldiers' hands. Undoubtedly, if you liked Alien, and if you liked The Terminator, you'll find much to admire in Aliens. The audience was unusually vocal, cheering wildly as alien guts and gore gushed grandly across the screen. If sheer pacing and intensity were all that counted, James Cameron would be THE director. Okay, so he twisted my guts too, and everyone seemed real excited walking out of the theater. But after you think about it, you'll see that this is just more of the same stuff. Sure, it will clean up at the box office. Yes, it is a horror. But since I'm not planning on seeing it again, I just want someone who IS planning to see it to note whether those aliens had lamb-chop sideburns, surf boards, or white, sequined suits to go along with their gyrating pelvises. Gordon Hamachi ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 86 16:35 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Aliens review Well, chalk another one up for Ripley. Not only did she kill the first Alien, she spewed a great deal of Alien blood in her sequel, Aliens. Nutshell Review: Where the original Alien was a sheer horror story, Aliens is an adventure film, and a great one at that. There are no slow building scare sequences, instead we are running from hordes of creatures. This is pure excitement! The premise (spoilers follow, but nothing substantial): Ripley is picked up by deep space salvage. She sailed clean through the populated sphere and spent 50 years asleep. She is accused of blowing up her ship pointlessly. There is no evidence of an Alien. In the meantime, a colony, complete with teraforming equipment, has landed and lost communication with Earth. The Marines are sent in with Ripley as an advisor. They bring along a company man, who is exactly what you would expect and another android, in addition to a contingency of coed marines. The marines are just what you would expect of traditional marines. They are just as unprepared for the Aliens as you would expect when push comes to shove. All in all, the movie was very consistent and logical. There were no bouts of complete stupidity. No gaping logical holes (that I saw) although there did seem to be a bit too much gravity on the ship, but they never pretended to be in free fall. I also thought the traditional open-the-airlock bit was stretching it a bit, but within limits. You decide for yourself. Most of the actors I did not recognize, although I thought they did a marvelous job. The only one I recognized was Chip from Weird Science. My commendations go to the point-lady, Hernandez (or however they spelled it). She was tough. "Hey, Hernandez, you ever been mistaken for a man?" "No, have you?" The flick was full of lines like that. Truly a fun and exciting movie. A sequel worth seeing. Four stars. Check it out in 70mm Dolby stereo! Jon is the reference to a "bug hunt" straight from Starship Troopers or what? ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 86 16:50:14 GMT From: robert@sri-spam.ARPA (Robert Allen) Subject: Re: Bughunt! (ALIENS, SPOILERS, SPOILERS) boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes: >Other than this parallelism, I see two major problems with the >film. The first is that they is no sense of futurity in the >characters. They are all basicly 20th-Century types transplanted >into the future. The second major problem is a lack of time sense. >One can infer that Ripley's debriefing provided information for the >Company to send the colonists out looking for the alien derelict, >which ended up as the obvious downfall of the colony, and thus, >that it was months after Ripley's return that the colony goes >south. However, this is not clear in the film, and it seems as if >there is a remarkable coincidence that the colony (which has been >on the planet for quite some time) should have a pest-control >problem just as Ripley reaches Earth. It was mentioned in the film, when Riply talked in private to Burke. In the book it was very clear. Burke heard Ripley's description on the Narcissus's (the escape shuttle) tape, giving full details and co-ordinates of the alien spaceship. He erased part of the tape, hence screwing Ripley's chances of redemption with the company, and sent a letter to the planet ordering someone to investigate the given coordinates, from whence came the alien infection. The one thing I had a problem with was the fact that the Company undertook a 20+ year project without a full survey of the planet. Surely even a half-hearted survey would reveal the alien spaceship? There is another thing I have a gripe with. It was actually filmed, and later cut, that Ripley found Burke coccooned when she went looking for the kid. Ripley gave Burke a grenade so he could kill himself, rather than dying of chestbursting. What pisses me off is that the exact same scene was removed from the original alien. Captain Dallas was found alive, but infected with one or more alien spawn, Ripley (or whoever found him) torched him out of compassion. Would have been a great scene, but they cut it out. Robert Allen, robert@sri-spam.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 86 16:22:12 GMT From: tekgen!brucec@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Cheney) Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE) I thought there were several large logical holes in Aliens. 1) TIME - The radio communications from the colony stop. This must have happened when all the colonists got "slimed". So Ripley and crew hop in a ship and go into DEEP SLEEP to get there. This means it must take several YEARS to get there. But when they get there, some of the slimed colonists are still "alive." In Alien, the "gestation" period of the creature in a human body is a matter of days, maybe weeks. BUT NOT YEARS !! The creatures also have this tendency to impregnate any human on sight, so don't try to tell me they were "saving" these folks for YEARS. 2) PLOT SLIP-UP - The colonists haven't seen or heard anything about creatures. But when Ripley shows up, they have a full-blown research project going on the Alien biology. They even have samples in jars of live critters (which must have stayed alive for YEARS, see above). So they have been studying them for some time, WITHOUT TELLING EARTH ?? A Watergate-style coverup by the company ?? C'mon.... 3) Strategy slip-up - Would you take EVERYONE off your spaceship for a ground mission ?? Leaving your backup shuttle up there ? Making replenishment of supplies a round-trip operation instead of a one-way operation ?? Cap'n Kirk would never have approved. 4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them, they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only glimmer of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an elevator. There are others, but these seem the biggest to me. But don't get me wrong, it's a great movie. tekgen!brucec ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 86 08:09:38 GMT From: ihlpg!durney@caip.rutgers.edu (Durney) Subject: SF Writers on the net I am an amateur (so far) SF writer and would like to cast another vote for an SF writers' group or mailing list. I am a member of the Fantasy & Science Fiction Workshop and would like to know if there are any other members who are on the net. Anyone out there? Brian Durney ihnp4!ihlpg!durney ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 1986 12:25 EDT (Sat) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> To: ihwpt!knudsen@caip.rutgers.edu (mike knudsen) Subject: Battle Language -- DUNE invention? Actually, there's a sort of Battle Language used by the Osnomians in "Doc" Smith's "Skylark" series, although it was more sign language than verbal as I recall. There are indications that the Berserkers used some sort of Battle Language in their wars against humanity, but then again, what else would a killer machine use? ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 86 14:46:09 GMT From: tekcrl!patc@caip.rutgers.edu (Pat Caudill) Subject: Re: Battle Language -- DUNE invention? If you look in the book BABEL-17 by S. R. Delaney you will find the whole story revolves around the S-Worfs hypothesis and what would a person be like who only knew battle language. I dont know which book has the earlier copyright date though. Pat Caudill Tektronix!tekcrl!patc ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Jul 86 0915-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #199 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 22 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 199 Today's Topics: Television - Max Headroom (10 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 19 Jul 86 13:30:08 GMT From: hitchens@godzilla.cs.utexas.edu (Ron Hitchens, Sun Wiz) Subject: Re: Max Headroom (question) > There is currently a music video on MTV with Max Headroom as the > only performer. The VJ calls this computer graphics, and many > claims that Max is a computer synthetic have been made. I've been > a computer animator for years, and I claim that Max is NOT a > computer graphic (at least, not the portrayal currently on MTV). > The technology won't support it, and there are many "giveaways" in > the tape I saw. Can anyone confirm or deny this (WITH CITATIONS!)? Max Headroom obviously isn't "computer generated" in the sense you mean. But I suppose you could call him "computer processed", though "video processed" would probably be more accurate. Max is an actor (the same one from the movie, can't recall his name) wearing a plastic suit and makeup specifically designed to look flat and "computerish". The video signal is then processed in various ways to make his movements look unnatural. It's very simple to do by duplicating and skipping frames. They put a simple computer-generated line pattern behind him, probably via a chroma-key technique. And they fiddle the audio to complete the effect. I saw him on Letterman on Thursday, at one point the audio cut out and for a few seconds you could hear the guy talking backstage. The Max effect wasn't quite as good in real time. In the movie and the other various things he's been used for (the video show on Cinemax, commercials) they've done some post-processing also, for things like the "scratched record effect" and such. Now, in the movie, character-wise, Max was computer generated. He was created from a brain scan of a real person. The evil (and wimpy) computer wiz wanted to replace the tv reporter (who was getting too close to the truth) with a computer version. But the computer model had some glitches because the reporter had been captured after crashing into a crossbar in a parking garage (max headroom 6') trying to get away from the goons chasing him. So he had a concussion at the time of data aquisition and there were a few CRC errors, hence the explanation for Max's quirky behaviour. The movie was actually quite good, set in a (very dirty) future dominated by television networks and inhabited by various punk slimoids. BTW, the reporter didn't die in the movie. The producers of Max Headroom were very clever in creating Max. They obviously understood the technology (it was made and set in England) and purposely made the glitches part of Max's character. The movie had lots of very good and (more importantly) plausible computer graphics and video effects. They've done a pretty good job of capitalizing on him. The movie left the impression of being the first of a series, I'm surprised they haven't done more by now. Back to the original point. The majority of the public doesn't know the difference between "computer generated" and "video processed". Max has the computer "look" on purpose, and I'm sure the producers are perfectly happy to let them be mistaken (and amazed at what computers can do nowadays). And with all the sophisticated video technology in use today, mostly computer controlled, it's not that much of a stretch anymore. For many people "hi-tech" == "computer", and if it has blinking lights or velcro on it, it's hi-tech. Ron Hitchens hitchens@godzilla.cs.utexas.edu ...!seismo!ut-sally!hitchens ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 86 17:21:21 GMT From: ucdavis!ccdbryan@caip.rutgers.edu (ccdbryan) Subject: Re: Max Headroom (question) In case you missed it, Max was on Late Night with David Letterman this last Thursday, and it was obvious that Max was back stage somewhere while Dave talked to a TV at his desk. At one point the sound from backstage went out and Max could be slightly heard in the background. Over all though, he was a big hit. Bryan UCDavis ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 86 01:14:34 GMT From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott) Subject: Re: Max Headroom (question) steve@bambi.UUCP (Steve Miller) writes: > There is currently a music video on MTV with Max Headroom as the > only performer. The VJ calls this computer graphics, and many > claims that Max is a computer synthetic have been made. I've been > a computer animator for years, and I claim that Max is NOT a > computer graphic (at least, not the portrayal currently on MTV). > The technology won't support it, and there are many "giveaways" in > the tape I saw. Can anyone confirm or deny this (WITH CITATIONS!)? Sorry, can't actually CITE anything, I was in England when Max first came out and there was quite a lot of fuss over this question amongst my friends, and I seem to remember one of them coming up with some info saying that he was a human actor whose performances were computer processed to make him look like a graphic. ("I got a letter the other day FR FR FRom a fan - He said the only funny lines on my show Are those behind me....... Hmmmm (Max turns and looks) I don't get it") Besides, if Max isn't a computer, then what does that make the other MTV VJs? Tim Abbott ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 86 19:49:10 GMT From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) Subject: Re: Max Headroom (question) > There is currently a music video on MTV with Max Headroom as the > only performer. The video is by the band that loves repetitious editing, otherwise known as Art of Noise, and the song is "Paranoimia" (or some such spelling). He fits right in with their style of video. Jonathan D. Trudel arpa: trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4,pyrnj,pyramid}!topaz!trudel ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 86 16:09:31 GMT From: jennings@onion.cs.reading.AC.UK (Richard Jennings) Subject: Re: Max Headroom origin (?) sch@druky.UUCP writes: >As I have heard mentioned earlier, I too remember seeing this Max >Headroom character in a movie about "blipverts" with a more >specific subject of subliminal advertising. I don't recall it >being one hour long but I specifically remember the box & Max >Headroom. It seemed everyone was trying to get this box because of >some great feeling or fantasic technology. The setting I remember >is the future and the city was run down and trashed. Kind of had a >"Mad Max" or "Escape From New York" tone to it (the setting). The ``film'' was the intoductory pilot for the original UK Max series shown on Channel 4: It was set ``20 minutes into the future'' in a (mid-atlantic) society where TV (and the ratings of the many hundred broadcasters) is of the utmost importance. The most successful company (only just) was ``network 23'' who employed a young spotty hacker (P. Brice) to develop tech-isms for them, including the blipvert which had the side-effect of making lazy people who sat in front of the telly all day (ie. most of the populus) explode. Network 23 had a highly successful programme called _The_What_I_Want_To_Know_ Show_, hosted by one Edison Carter. In making one of the programmes, he got ``too damn close to the truth'' and Brice decided (without authority) to terminate Carter. The network chief was none too pleased about this, so Brice tried to appease him by making a computer model of Carter - this is Max Headroom; the name comes from the sign which was the last thing Carter saw before he hit his head on it, ``Max. Headroom: 2.3m'. To cut a long story short(ish), a small-time TV station (known as _Big_Time_ TV_) who just played old promos got hold of the Max box and started to use it to do their links - hence the show. >But the real reason for this posting is that it was mentioned that >this was first aired on channel 4 18 months ago. I remember seeing >this movie here in the states around THREE years ago on pay >television. Not so. The Pilot show was (c) 1985 by Chysalis Video Programming. It is thought here that you may possibly be confusing it with _Videodrome_ (myself I'm not so sure). It is also thought that this is just another example of Americans assuming that all TV is US TV - cf. the astonishment on t'other side of the water not so long back when it was explained to them that, in fact, _Dr._Who_ was entirely made by the British Broardcasting Corporation, actually. >By the by, I am still waiting for someone to come up with the title >of this movie. I would appreciate it. Believe it or not: ``Max Headroom''. Incidentally, as I write, _Paranoimia_ by Art of Noise & Max is playing on the radio... Richard Jennings jennings@sage.cs.reading.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 21 JUL 86 08:59-EST From: JJL8733%RITVAXC.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA Subject: Re: The M-M-M-Max Headroom Story Brian Bishop (Bishop at Usc-Oberon) writes: > Apparently he was a reporter originally (and went by a different >name) when he broke the story on *blipverts*, thirty-second ads >squeezed into three seconds, real-time. Unfortunately he was >killed for this, smashing into a sign that read "Max. Headroom 6 >M." He was resurrected with the new name....Max Headroom. The rest >is history. Note: this info is second-hand, as I haven't been able >to get a videotape of Max, as I can't get Cinemax, (hint hint....I >have several "Prisoner" episodes...) Actually he did not _Die_ when his motorcycle crashed in to the "Max. Headroom 6 M." sign. He was hurt, but later recovered. In the meanwhile a crazed scientist has already scanned his brain and has the pattern in his computer. Steve Higgins writes: > As I have heard mentioned earlier, I too remember seeing this >Max Headroom character in a movie about "blipverts" with a more >specific subject of subliminal advertising. I don't recall it >being one hour long but I specifically remember the box & Max >Headroom. It seemed everyone was trying to get this box because of >some great feeling or fantasic technology. The setting I remember >is the future and the city was run down and trashed. Kind of had a >"Mad Max" or "Escape From New York" tone to it (the setting). Correct on the tone of the setting (if that's the proper terminology), but everyone was after the box (there was a more scientific sounding name but I've forgotten it already) because Max Headroom had information that could destroy the largest T.V. network around. Jason BITNET,VNET,EARN,NETNORTH: JJL8733@RITVAXC ARPA: JJL8733%RITVAXC.BITNET@.WISCVM.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21-JUL-1986 09:56 EDT From: Ronald A. Jarrell <JARRELLRA%VTVAX5.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> Subject: Max Headroom Max Headroom (also known as The Max Headroom Story, but I think the former is the actual title) first appeared in the U.S. early last year on Cinemax. This year all of a sudden he started popping up everywhere. Cinemax also did some episodes of the Max Headroom Show for a while. Max Headroom is running again now on Cinemax, in fact I saw it last night I think. The city isn't really bombed out, it's only set "20 minutes into the future". It's just that some areas of the city (which is presumable london) are very slummed-out. The movie is really about a reporter, Edison Carter, that does a live news show "on the road" with a portable camera. He (and other reporters like him) stay in contact at all times with their "controllers", the people back in the news room with the huge computer consoles that can apparently tie into any computer known to mankind. They can at the very least link up to sattelites to get directions, and seem to have databases with the floorplans of every building in london. The network (network 23) uses "compressed" advertising called blip-verts, that shows a 30 second commercial in 3 seconds, preventing channel switching. But there seems to be a problem no one wants to talk about. During the course of the movie we find out how Max is created. BTW, Max is currently that star of a new video. I only caught part of it, so I don't know the song/group, but at a guess I think it's either Quiet Riot, or Art of Noise.. (4am is a bad time to try to figure those things out.) Ron ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 86 04:16:13 GMT From: proper!carl@caip.rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg) Subject: Re: Max Headroom (question) steve@bambi.UUCP (Steve Miller) writes: >There is currently a music video on MTV with Max Headroom as the >only performer. The VJ calls this computer graphics, and many >claims that Max is a computer synthetic have been made. I've been >a computer animator for years, and I claim that Max is NOT a >computer graphic (at least, not the portrayal currently on MTV). >The technology won't support it, and there are many "giveaways" in >the tape I saw. Can anyone confirm or deny this (WITH CITATIONS!)? Oh, I don't know... have you ever seen Tony de Peltrie, or Andre and Wally B.? PIXAR (ex-Lucasfilm computer division) has come out with some interesting stuff.... From what I've seen of Max Headroom (2 TV commercials), he's possible for them, though the last thing I saw that was computer-animated was clearly weird: too much chin, looked pretty strange.. If you have the animation festival in town, it should feature Tony de Peltrie... the thing was at the UC theatre in Berkeley recently.... Carl Greenberg ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 86 20:26:11 GMT From: clarke@h-sc4.harvard.edu (Cam Clarke) Subject: Re: Max Headroom (question) This morning, Monday July 21, Good Morning America was originating from England (I guess they are the whole week because of the royal wedding). They had a segment about Max Headroom, including clips of the movie that started all this, clips from his series in England (he interviews people like Boy George and Sting), the actor who plays Max (I partially missed the actor's name, Matt Fruer or something that sounds like that. Anyway, he's American, not British, and they had a picture of him), and an interview with Max, much like the one David Letterman did, only shorter and without any audio glitches. They said the process used to create Max was a "secret" that the interviewer had sworn not to tell. If someone's really interested, ABC sells transcripts of GMA, they give a P.O. Box number at the end of each show. Cam Clarke clarke%h-sc4@harvard.ARPA clarke@h-sc4.HARVARD.EDU clarke@h-sc4.UUCP clarke@HARVUNXU.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 21 Jul 1986 08:32:23-PDT From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (MARY J. MAROTTA MRO1-2/L12 From: 467-4277) Having just seen The Max Headroom Story -- The Beginning on Cinemax this weekend, I want to recommend it to SF lovers and make a few comments on earlier messages. As Tim Abbott (rather bitingly) points out, the computer-generated image is not a critical part of the plot. Actually, the story is about Edison Carter the news reporter, and the advertising scam called "blipverts." It's a fascinating, hour-long episode about Edison's attempt to publicize the dangers of blipverts and to avoid being "wasted" by the network biggies. I enjoyed it thoroughly. The setting was reminiscent of Blade Runner. The characters, too. Since Cinemax chose to call this "The Beginning," I have hopes that they will show other episodes from the series. I wonder if Max Headroom figures in the these other episodes (after all, they named the series "Max Headroom"). In any case, Edison Carter and his beautiful coworker are interesting enough characters, and the writing seems to be above the standards of most American television (I have come to expect this of British television). Oh, by the way, Tim, the movie "Escape from New York" is worth a viewing, if only to see Kurt Russell live up to his acting ability. The script is fine, and the plot has enough action to keep you there till the end. Best of all, though, is the setting -- New York as a prison is not so far from our present reality! (sorry, Apple lovers!) Mary ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Jul 86 0926-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #200 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 22 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 200 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thursday, 17 Jul 1986 10:31:29-PDT From: winalski%psw.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Paul S. Winalski) Subject: death of Saruman (SFL V11 #193) In the cosmology of Arda, all of those beings imbued with spirits or sould [souls] by Illuvatar (this includes Ainur, Elves, Men, and Dwarves) never really "die" in the sense of their life force and essence ceasing to exist. All of these can have their physical bodies slain or destroyed, but their spirits continue to exist. The spirits of Men leave Ea and return to reside with Illuvatar (this ability to escape from the bonds of Ea and the Music of the Ainur is called the Gift of Illuvatar to Men). The spirits of Elves are gathered in Mandos, and can in fact be released and restored a corporeal form (e.g., Finrod Felagund, about whom the Silmarillion says that after he was slain in Middle Earth he "walks with his father Finarfin in Eldamar"). Those Ainur who clothe themselves in physical bodies can have this form destroyed. This happens to Gandalf after the fight with the Balrog, to Sauron in the wreck of Numenor, and again after Isildur cuts the Ring from his finger. In Gandalf's case, he returns clothed in a new body as Gandalf the White. In Sauron's case, the ability to resume physical form seems to have been part of the power that he passed to the Ring. After Numenor's destruction, Sauron's spirit returns to Mordor, he takes up posession of the One, and he fashions himself a new body in fairly short order. However, when his spirit flees after the Siege of Barad Dur, it takes him centuries to resume corporeal form because he no longer has the Ring. After the Ring is destroyed, he loses forever the power to clothe himself in a body, becoming, in the words of Gandalf, "a malicious spirit gnawing itself in the darkness but never able to take form or shape again." Saruman was clothed in a human body and thus could be killed by Wormtongue's dagger. However, we see his spirit as it leaves his body. Apparently his desire to return to Valinor is spurned (by Manwe, since it is a wind that blows it away). It is unclear what happens to his spirit after that. My own guess is that his situation parallels that of Sauron. Alternatively, maybe he is imprisoned in Mandos, which seems to be the general repository for the spirits of the slain. PSW ------------------------------ Date: Fri 18 Jul 86 01:04:30-CDT From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: Tolkien & Marillion? I've read The Hobbit & LOTR but none of the later works that go into the detailed history and linguistics, so can any of you Tolkien scholars tell me if the British rock band Marillion takes their name from anything in Tolkien? (I note the obvious similarity to Silmarillion but have no idea if that's coincidence or not?) (PS, I recommend their music if you like early Genesis or King Crimson, also Peter Gabriel sort of...) Thanks for any info on this, Russ ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 86 21:18:12 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: The LOTR vs. other sources milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes: >Your argument is still well taken, because memories can change, or >survive incompletely; and the Elves were not in any case given to >frequent discussion of them. I believe the accounts we read now in >Silmarillion were written by Bilbo (later by Frodo), who had >considerable opportunity to talk with the Elves of Rivendell, at >least a few of whom could remember Gondolin -- but we don't know >how much he actually did, with whom he talked, and of what they >talked. Actually, I believe that the bulk of the material in the Silmarillion is based on "Bilbo's Translations from the Elvish" which is mentioned in the appendices to LotR. The Akallabeth and the history of the Third Age are probably derived from the additional material added to the Red Book by the scribes of Gondor. Thus I would hardly say that Bilbo *wrote* The Silmarillion, rather he translated it from the original Elvish. It is probably a rather crude and incomplete translation, but still a translation, and thus directly based on first-hand Elvish accounts. >I think it is important to distinguish between the hobbits' >viewpoint that we see in LotR, and the much more Elvish viewpoint >of the "earlier" works. I think that of all the peoples in Middle >Earth, it is the hobbits who are most like us, and with whom we can >most empathise, so to a considerable degree, their feelings and >points of view are most natural to us. It is much harder to >understand the points of view from which Elvish accounts are >written. Surely this stream of tragedies and disappointments >cannot belong to the same gentle, smiling peoples whose beauty so >enthralls the hobbits (and hence, us)? So I think that the >disappointments we may feel from Silmarillion (I certainly felt >some) are at least partly inherent in the different point of view >presented. Very astute. I have indeed found that by attempting to get "inside" the accounts of the First Age I have been able to understand the Elvish viewpoint much better. I can now understand the Elvish reluctance to get involved with other races in the Third Age, and thier fatalistic viewpoint on life. >PS. For a bit of perspective on how much difference Elvish >longevity might make, look at the geneology tree in Silmarillion >that includes Elros and Elrond. From Elrond a line goes down to >his daughter Arwen, with an = sign indicating her marriage to >Aragorn. Now for Aragorn's descent: starting with Elros, Elrond's >half-brother, crammed into the space available for them are "all >the kings of Numenor, all the kings of Gondor, rangers of Arnor" >(essentially), sharing the stretch of time that, on Elrond's side, >is Arwen's alone. Is it any wonder that the Elves view the world >differently? And add to this the fact that the Kings of Numenor were a long-lived line, you have a very long time indeed. Remember, Numenor lasted several *thousand* years, more time than has passed since the fall of Crete! Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 86 21:34:10 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Orcs ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA writes: >Sarima writes: the orcs], like the Elves..., are reincarnated! >Hold it, Stan...Who says Elves are reincarnated? I haven't read >all the Unfinished Tales, etc., but I always thought once an Elf >died, he was stuck in the Halls of Mandos for all time. No? No, they *are* reincarnated. It is even mentioned(in passing) in The Silmarillion, I believe in the early creation accounts where the natures of the various races are described. The basic point is this, the Elves are tied for all time to Ea, while Men after a brief time in the halls of Mandos pass beyond Ea into a different existence, presumably what we call Heaven. In fact it is stated somewhere that the Glorfindel of LotR is the *same* Glorfindel that was killed in the Silmarillion. This is either in the Unfinished Tales, or in the published letters of JRR Tolkien. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 86 21:47:47 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Hobbits et al. context@uw-june (Ronald Blanford) writes: >While the Silmarillion explains the origins of elves, men, and to >some extent dwarves, I'm still confused about the origin of other >semi-manlike beings such as hobbits and the inhabitants of Druadan >Forest and perhaps Pukel-men. Do any of the more erudite have >explanations? I have always assumed that these peoples are just races of Men, that is merely unusual tribes of Homo sapiens. The Druedain are certainly no more unusual than modern day Pigmies. Also note the use of the elvish word <adan> in the name, it means Man. And even the Hobbits are said to be closer to Man than Elves and Dwarves, so I think it is reasonable to conclude that they are derived from ordinary human stock, probably late in the Second Age or early in the Third. Also, they partake of the nature of mankind, they are mortal, and generally have the same viewpoint on life, as is shown by how much more easily we understand them than we do Elves. >Who and what is Beorn and the Beornings? Another race of Men who had learned the Art of shape-changing? Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 86 00:20:35 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: How much did Sauron control? >evidently a Maia is quite mortal. Depends on what you mean by "mortal". Certainly their bodies could be "killed", but this normally had little impact on these beings. They just retired to a quite corner and made themselves a new body, or not as they chose. To them a body is rather like suit of clothes to be worn, it could be taken on or off as they pleased, and being without a body was no real handicap to them. That is except that they could not affect physical things as easily without one. I imagine most of the bodies made by Maiar were quite difficult to "kill", rather like Sauron's or those of Balrogs, which required quite a bit to kill. Sometimes the Maia(or Vala) would put so much power into a body that he had little extra, and would have difficulty making a new one if it were destroyed. This happened to Sauron and Morgoth. The bodies taken by the Istari, however, were different. They were less hardy, more like the bodies of Men. Also the Maiar who accepted this post permitted much of thier memory of Aman to be removed, and great limits were placed on thier powers. They were not allowed to use any powers not inherent in thier bodies or derived from Middle Earth. Thus they were much easier to kill than most Maiar. That is except for Gandalf after his "resurrection". He told the Fellowship that they had no weapon that could hurt him, so I imagine he had a more typical Maiarin body at that point. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 86 00:23:12 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: How much did Sauron control? lazarus@gort.UUCP (Daniel G. Winkowski) writes: >Saruman as a Maia? I thought he was numbered among the Istar; >longlived but mortal! > >What was the origin of the Istar anyhow? Yes, Saruman was one of the Istari(note the correct plural). But what were the Istari?? It turns out that they were all Maiar who had voluntarily taken on the form and many of the limitations of a mortal. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 86 00:28:23 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Numenor & Atlantis(actually Celtic myths) rf@infopro.UUCP (Randolph Fritz) writes: > The fall of Numenor, as told, probably owes more to a recurring >dream Tolkien had, one of a great wave sweeping over an island. In >Celtic mythology, there are stories about a drowned country; in >Welsh (a language which Tolkien knew & loved) and in Breton. The >Breton accounts, of a land called Ys, speak of a land which sunk so >that only the highest towers (or was it mountains?) remain above >water, much like Numenor. An interesting sidelight here. These Celtic myths may have more truth to them than many people realize. There is some evidence that parts of the western and southern coasts of Great Britain were indeed inundated by the sea, and not too long before the Roman invasion at that! A few of centuries easlier the Roman legions might have been able to *march* into Britain. So it is quite possible that these myths are old remembrances of something that really happened. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 86 00:31:33 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Ungoliant milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes: >Does anybody know more about the name than just that it seemed to >be Sindarin for "spider" or "giant spider?" (As in Cirith Ungol, >the Spider's Pass (evidently Frodo's Elvish was not quite up to >that) )? There are some hints in one of the Lost Tales books that it might mean "Web Weaver", but the descriptions of the language in those books is not very reliable. Another possibility is "Great Spider". Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 86 00:28:23 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Numenor & Atlantis(actually Celtic myths) rf@infopro.UUCP (Randolph Fritz) writes: > The fall of Numenor, as told, probably owes more to a recurring >dream Tolkien had, one of a great wave sweeping over an island. In >Celtic mythology, there are stories about a drowned country; in >Welsh (a language which Tolkien knew & loved) and in Breton. The >Breton accounts, of a land called Ys, speak of a land which sunk so >that only the highest towers (or was it mountains?) remain above >water, much like Numenor. An interesting sidelight here. These Celtic myths may have more truth to them than many people realize. There is some evidence that parts of the western and southern coasts of Great Britain were indeed inundated by the sea, and not too long before the Roman invasion at that! A few of centuries easlier the Roman legions might have been able to *march* into Britain. So it is quite possible that these myths are old remembrances of something that really happened. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 86 20:16:40 GMT From: weitek!robert@caip.rutgers.edu (Robert Plamondon) Subject: Re: Hobbits, Beornings, et al. context@uw-june (Ronald Blanford) writes: >While the Silmarillion explains the origins of elves, men, and to >some extent dwarves, I'm still confused about the origin of other >semi-manlike beings such as hobbits and the inhabitants of Druadan >Forest and perhaps Pukel-men. Do any of the more erudite have >explanations? One thing that is very clear in Tolkien is that the Elves just aren't very interested in things that aren't Elvish. The only reason Men are mentioned as often as they are in Elvish chronicles is that Men played a major part in the Elvish wars against Morgoth and Sauron. Elvish writings on other races were always hit-or-miss. They remembered many old songs about the Ents, but hadn't actually *visited* them in centuries. They virtually ignored the Eagles. They dealt with Dwarves rarely (except for the Elves of Hollin (and look what happened to them!:-) ), and hadn't even *noticed* Pukel-men or hobbits. Thus, even if the Elves once knew where all these guys came from, the individuals with the knowledge passed over the sea, or got hit over the head with an Orc's club, and their knowledge wasn't preserved. And by the Third Age, the Elves weren't traveling much any more, so they were unlikely to re-discover anything. Since most of the knowledge we have from Middle-Earth comes from Elvish writings, it means we get information in proportion to how important the *Elves* thought things were, not in proportion to our values. >Who and what is Beorn and the Beornings? As far as I can tell, only the Maiar (sp?) and Valar are shape-shifters, along with some of their descendants. Luthien (and later Elwing) got their shape-shifting ability through Melian. One would suppose, then, that Beorn is descended from a "renegade" Maia; one who found Middle-Earth so fascinating that he forsook his duties to live there. Tom Bombadil is another who falls into this category. For that matter, so do Sauron, Saruman, the Balrog of Moria, Shelob, and Radagast the Brown. Robert Plamondon UUCP: {turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Jul 86 0838-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #201 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 23 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 201 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (3 msgs) & Myers & Wren & Celtic Myths (3 msgs), Films - Books into Films, Television - Star Trek (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Has This Been Done? (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Jul 86 14:39:19 GMT From: utastro!howard@caip.rutgers.edu (Howard Coleman) Subject: Re: The Cat Who Walks Thru Walls (One opinion) I don't think Mr. Edmonds was the only one to be disappointed. Like many another long-time RAH reader, I've found the going increasingly bumpy since - well, say, since *I Will Fear No Evil* came out in 1970. I'm not as even-tempered as Mr. Edmonds, and my reaction on finishing *Cat* was that the book was irresponsible and undisciplined. It seems to be part of an ongoing effort to cobble up some great master scheme incorporating the entire RAH canon and anything else that strikes his fancy. I suspect that it is this idea of a master-plot that results in books like *Cat*, and not just a desire to crank one out for the bucks. (I'd guess bucks are no longer a major concern of his.) What we get, then, are works with all the literary values of a jigsaw puzzle. Unless you're into trying to find where all the brightly colored little pieces go, you're not going to have a good time, or even an interesting time. And that, considering what has gone before, is a real shame. Summary of sorts : I didn't think the book was short or skiffy (SciFi). I did think it was bad. It's not the epitome of the RAH novel. He's been writing sf since before the Second World War, and he's changed a lot in that time. There *is* no epitome of the Heinlein novel. Finally, if the original posting was actually intended as a comment on the fiction of H. R. Haldeman (not related, so far as I know, to Joe and Jack), ignore everything I've said. (At this point, I might insert one of these things :-) , to indicate that the last sentence was written in jest. But what if no-one thought it was funny ? Then where would I be ? It's a hard problem.) Howard Coleman ut-sally!utastro!howard Astronomy Department University of Texas ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 86 18:42:54 GMT From: utastro!howard@caip.rutgers.edu (Howard Coleman) Subject: Re: Lazarus Long, found in _The_Past... "Lifeline", Heinlein's first story, and the one that deals with Dr. Pinero, is, of course, the lead story in TPTT. I don't see any mention of Lazarus Long in it. "Methuselah's Children" is the final piece in TPTT. On page 635 of the Science Fiction Book Club edition (two or three pages before the end of Chapter 3 in part II), the following passage appears (Copyright 1958 Robert A. Heinlein) : But there he stood. "Lazarus," she asked, "how long do you expect to live?" "Me? Now that's an odd question. I mind a time when I asked a chap that very same question--about me, I mean, not about him. Ever hear of Dr. Hugo Pinero?" "'Pinero . . . Pinero . . .' Oh, yes, 'Pinero the Charlatan.'" "Mary, he was no charlatan. He could do it, no foolin'. He could predict accurately when a man would die." "But-- Go ahead. What did he tell you?" "Just a minute. I want you to realize that he was no fake. His predictions checked out right on the button - if he hadn't died, the life insurance companies would have been ruined. That was before you were born, but I was there and I know. Anyhow, Pinero took my reading and it seemed to bother him. So he took it again. Then he returned my money." "What did he say?" "Couldn't get a word out of him." ... Pinero at the beginning and again at the end. Nice symmetry, eh ? Howard Coleman ut-sally!utastro!howard Astronomy Department University of Texas ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 86 18:31:39 GMT From: watnot!ctkierstead@caip.rutgers.edu (caroline kierstead) Subject: Re: Lazarus Long As a matter of interest, Lazarus Long has also appeared as a character in *Number of the Beast* and *The Cat Who Could Walk Through Walls* (sp?) which is Heinlein's latest novel. ------------------------------ Date: 21 July 1986 13:24:12 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Carlo N. Samson) Subject: Re: Silverlock I read _Silverlock_ about a year ago and I'm afraid I don't see why it is considered a Masterpiece. It was a good read, yes, and very well written, but it didn't make as profound an impact on me as it apparently did on Niven, Pournelle, and Anderson. Perhaps I've missed something (other than a goodly protion of the literary references); could anyone enlighten me on this? Carlo Samson U09862@uicvm ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 86 20:43:32 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: The Doomsday Effect: A baaaaaaaad book from Baen Title: The Doomsday Effect by Thomas Wren Jim Baen claims "reads like a cross between Hogan and Heinlein". So OK, I said to myself, how much can he be exaggerating? I'm here to tell you, he can exaggerate one h*ll of a lot. I mean I almost feel like doing Dangerfield schtick here: Oooohh that was a bad book, lemme tell ya, oooooh it's bad. The last time I saw readin' mater'ial like 'dat it had a fish wrapped in it. It was bad I tell ya. And inaccurate? It should be put in the Guiness Book a' Records for Most Inaccurate Hard Science Fiction. I asked my wife what she thought of the book, an' she said it reminded her of me... a real looser. I get no respect, no respect at all... The dialog and characterization wasn't all *that* bad, mind you. In fact it was fairly good as such things go. It's just that most of the motivation and action in the thing was centered around such horrible technical inaccuracies that it was *very* hard to get into the story. Normally, a few little glitches don't bother me at all, even if I notice them, but here the *whole* *thing* was one long glitch. (SPOILERS FOLLOW) The primary plot involves a black hole that the earth captures by means not specified. (It turns out that the Wren doesn't know how or why bodies are captured into stable orbits.) The orbital path takes the black hole into the earth itself for part of the orbit. Wren states that the orbit is "a perfect ellipse". Not so for an orbit that penetrates a mass... while inside the earth, the force doesn't vary by inverse square, but by *direct* proportion (as in an ideal spring). So, OK, we overlook these first problems (capture and orbit). Next, how do our heroes propose to deal with this problem before it consumes the earth? Well, they are going to capture it with an asteroid (ultimately, Ceres). But Wren clearly doesn't understand how such captures would occur at all, stating that all that is necessary is to arrange for an asteroid of sufficent size to cross the black hole's path. He implicitly says that the speed of the intersection doesn't matter (implicit in the calculations the heroes use to model the situation). Yuck. Further, though he often mentions that the earth's material doesn't affect the hole's orbit, he raises a "danger" that, if the capture attempt at apogee fails, the black hole could be "slowed down" and "fall into" the earth, never to rise above the surface again. Sigh. Ok, ok, let's overlook the fact that all the main action of the piece is predicated on bogus orbital mechanics which most sharp high-schoolers should know better than. But when things get underway, Wren demonstrates further problems. A small (by no means complete) selection: Talks about "antiphotons" as if these were current knowlege. Gives them the magic property of causing a black hole to expell it's mass. Says Hawking knew all about this from the start. Right. Talks about the asteroid belt as if it were practically solid. I thought this kind of nonsense went out in the 40s? Has an absolutely ludicrous use of "asteroid billiards". In the face of the "shooter" admitting ignorance of the precise masses and orbits of the asteroids involved, nevertheless the "shooter" co-ordinates literally thousands of impulses (using thermonuclear devices) and near misses, with NO FEEDBACK, just a one-shot setup, and manuvers Ceres into a stable orbit around the earth. Gad. Has some of the material infalling on the hole spewed outward in twin jets from the poles of the accretion disk. Fine, fine. But then at one point describes how the jet that points in the same direction as the orbit is "folded back", while the "rearward" jet is straight. In a vacuum. In free-fall. Right. To cap it all off, has a major character wonder what to do with a process for "inverting" normal matter to produce antimatter cheaply. After much soul-searching, character comes up with (oh, such an original thought) energy production! Double Gad! All in all, not a chapter goes by in which the reader isn't jarred out of the story by some obvious, silly, and (drat it all) *PREVENTABLE* mistake like those mentioned above. Mind you, Wren might be somebody to watch if he ever cleans up his technical act, since it was clear to me that it was the continual barrage of inaccuracy that spoiled the book. Unless and until, watch out. (So, why did I finish it? Well, I eventually got into the game of finding these things. Not that they were hard to locate but it got sort of fun to pick them out as I went along.) (And for those of you who are saying "picky, picky, picky!" at this point: my problem wasn't that the information was inaccurate. I put up with inaccurate backgrounds frequently. The problem was that the inaccuracies were central to the plot, so that the main characters kept doing bizarre, inconsistent, and futile things much of the time.) Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 86 05:12:11 GMT From: calmasd.CALMA!cjn@caip.rutgers.edu (Cheryl Nemeth) Subject: Re: Numenor & Atlantis(actually Celtic myths) Do you have any more information about these myths (titles, books I can find them in, rumors to pointers to references...)? ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 86 19:49:13 GMT From: ucdavis!ccdbryan@caip.rutgers.edu (ccdbryan) Subject: Re: Numenor & Atlantis(actually Celtic myths) > Do you have any more information about these myths (titles, books > I can find them in, rumors to pointers to references...)? If you are interested in sf dealing with this, try The Copper Crown by P. Kenneally, a novel of the reunification of Earth and the Kelt empire. The Kelts are actually the descendants of Celts and Irishman who use magic, psi, or whatever. They left Earth when the Christians arrived and waged war against magic in the 400's. At one point they say that before that they came from Atlantis and that the Atlantians where actually from another planet altogether. An interesting concept that forms a good foundation for a good story. The book just came out this month I think. Bryan UCDavis ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 86 14:47:12 GMT From: dartvax!chelsea@caip.rutgers.edu (Karen Christenson) Subject: Celtic myth references There's the Mabinogion, which is a collection of Celtic myths. There's also a series of five juveniles (one won the Newberry) by Susan Cooper which have several references to Celtic myths. Karen Christenson dartvax!chelsea ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 86 13:03:53 GMT From: daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp) Subject: Re: Films of favourite sf books randy@ranhome.UUCP (Randy Horton) writes: >daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp) writes: >>...(Stainless Steel Rat books would make good films)... >> >> We could never agree on an actor to play the mighty >>Slippery Jim DiGriz though - Harrison Ford or James Caan perhaps?? >>And who would play the delectable Angelina????? :-) > >I think that Bruce Willis ( of Moonlighting) could be a good >choice. He has the right style of humor for it. I think that he >also could look like someone like Slippery Jim. OK - I admit it - I watched an episode of Moonlighting last night and I actually agree with Randy. I think that Bruce Willis would have to lose a bit of weight though... The only suggestion I've had so far for Angelina is Jane Seymour, but I don't really agree with this one. Anybody else have any suggestions? Probably need someone with martial arts training. David Allsopp ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 86 05:45:03 GMT From: sunybcs!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Timothy Thomas) Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series >Won't these studio morons LEARN?!?! The idea of recasting the crew >came up for ST I (The Motion Sickness). The fannish outrage caused >them to reconsider. This was what got us Decker, etc. as they >tried to phase in a replacement crew. We all know how far THAT >got. A good portion of Trek's continuing popularity is the >identification with the crew members. Expect this one to sink >fast. I disagree. I can see you point about people watching it to identify with the characters they have learned to love, but I do not think that changing the cast will wipe out Star Trek. It would if they had replacements for Kirk, Spock, etc..., but as long as it is known to be a different crew (and a different ship...obviously), I think (hope) that the new series will do well. Many fans didnt like ST I, but that isn't because of the casting, all our favorite crew members were still there, and the addition of a character (Decker) did not make any difference (characters were always being added to the series). As long as there are GOOD scripts, the show should do well (among trekkies/trekkers at least). Timothy D. Thomas SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science UUCP: [decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath,rocksvax]!sunybcs!tim CSnet: tim@buffalo ARPAnet: tim%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 86 20:36:35 GMT From: dave@andromeda.RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Bloom) Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series I *hated* STTMP for a number of reasons, but one of the biggies was because it was used as a vehicle for the introduction of new characters central to the plot. After all those years I wanted see Kirk & Crew and instead got two hours of Decker the wimp and the cue-ball woman.... a total turn-off. Without the old characters, ST is just another Sci-Fi... Might as well introduce another Sci-Fi series and start fresh rather than have the constraints of an old one which had MANY inconsistencies. I think the characters, regardless of their age, still make the old magic happen.... That's why TWOK was so good. Surely they can be moved to other positions while still keeping their centrality to the plot. Dave Bloom Office: (201)648-5083 {harvard|seismo|ut-sally|allegra|ihnp4!packard}!topaz!andromeda!dave ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 86 04:11:59 GMT From: lsuc!jimomura@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Omura) Subject: Re: Has this been done? Your idea re. a book based on Tarot cards sounds something like what Piers Anthony was doing with his Tarot trilogy ("God of Tarot" was one of them) and the related series ("Cluster"?). James Omura, Barrister & Solicitor, Toronto ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura Byte Information eXchange: jimomura (416) 652-3880 ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 86 13:36:58 GMT From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Has this been done? My quote of the week ... If you can come to such friendly terms with yourself that you are able to say precisely what you think of any given situation, if you can tell a story as it can appear only to you of all the people on earth, you will inevitably have a piece of work which is original. Dorothea Brande, in "Becoming a Writer" So screw worrying about if it's been done -- if it's powerful enough in your imagination, it'll be new and different even if someone else used the gimmick. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Jul 86 0926-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #202 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 23 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 202 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Jul 86 15:17:55 GMT From: okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (The New Number Who) Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE) brucec@tekgen.UUCP (Bruce Cheney) writes: >I thought there were several large logical holes in Aliens. > >1) TIME > >2) PLOT SLIP-UP > >3) Strategy slip-up > >4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space >ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them, >they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only glimmer >of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an elevator. In points 1-3 I agree in full. But the first part of 4... The Alien(s) did NOT pilot the derelict. They were parasites. Remember the giant who they found chest-bursted? They were the pilots. Obvious sequel: Go back and destroy the derelict. It more than likely was NOT destroyed by the nuclear explosion and God knows how many eggs are still down there. Point: When Ripley hit the airlock, ole Queenie was hanging on to her leg and Ripley onto the ladder. Why didn't Ripley's leg and the Queen fly off into space? I'd think Ripley's joints would fail before the Queen's strength (remember Bishop?). Sigh. Question: Anybody know how they filmed the powerloader sequences? It would seem to me that it would be hideously overbalanced given the size of those hydraulic claws. Maybe lots and lots of braces.... Jeff Okamoto ..!ucbvax!okamoto okamoto@ucbvax.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 86 15:28:32 GMT From: okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (The New Number Who) Subject: Music from Aliens One thing that I hated was that James Horner STOLE music from many major sci-fi movies. Did people notice stuff from 2001, Star Wars, ST:The Motion Sickness, and STII: The Wrath of the Children of the Corn? And they didn't even credit the music! Jeff Okamoto ..!ucbvax!okamoto okamoto@ucbvax.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 86 10:54:18 GMT From: shipley@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Peter Shipley) Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE) >4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space >ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them, >they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only glimmer >of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an elevator. The ship was someone else's that crashed. (remember the giant skeleton in the command chair) At the end how did she live thru the pressure drop, let alone hold on. The grenade belt should have made a bigger bang compared to the one going off. Why didn't the artificial get taken home by the Aliens, I was waiting for him to get munched then have the Alien puke. What I want to see is "The Thing vs The Alien". Pete shipley@pavepaws.berkeley.edu ucbvax!pavepaws!shipley shipley@violet.berkeley.edu ucbvax!violet!shipley ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 86 21:56:40 GMT From: robert@sri-spam.ARPA (Robert Allen) Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE) okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU writes: > The Alien(s) did NOT pilot the derelict. They were parasites. > Remember the giant who they found chest-bursted? They were the > pilots. Quite correct, although I don't doubt that the Aliens have a native intelligence equal to that of humans or derelict builders. I believe this because the Aliens have always been intelligent enough to figure out humans intentions, with technology, which implies an understanding of the technology. Maybe the Aliens are a xenomorph equivalent of the Amish, who don't feel the need to use technology to get their ends, in other words, the Aliens are "Earth Mamas". As far as "not showing a glimmer of intelligence", who says it was happenstance that the Aliens built their nest in the one area where they had access to underground tubes, and where heavy weapons couldn't be used against them? > Point: When Ripley hit the airlock, ole Queenie was hanging on to > her leg and Ripley onto the ladder. Why didn't Ripley's leg and > the Queen fly off into space? I'd think Ripley's joints would > fail before the Queen's strength (remember BIshop?). Sigh. I think that Ripley should at least have lost a foot. It would have been more believeable, and also would have shown that in the _REAL_ world, the ending is not always a happy one. > Question: Anybody know how they filmed the powerloader sequences? > It would seem to me that it would be hideously overbalanced given > the size of those hydraulic claws. Maybe lots and lots of > braces.... Believe it or not, major portions of the battle between the Queen and Ripley were done with models. It was excellent stop action model photography, and probably used matts to make it seem as if Ripley really was in the powerloader model. Robert Allen, robert@sri-spam.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 86 15:20:00 GMT From: gouldsd!mjranum@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: ALIENS inconsistency ? Okay, so the company (in ALIEN) diverts an oil-conversion plant to check out a potentially dangerous alien signal. (isn't that what all the special secret messages to Ash were ? and why he finally tried to kill Ripley in the first version ?) So the Company sends them out to face this thing, and then they disappear for 57 years or so. No biggie. When Ripley comes back, the company doesn't believe her ? Wasn't the whole kicker of ALIEN that the company had set them up to get wasted ? Years later, the colony disappears, and the company is *surprised*? It doesn't make sense. and then they still don't believe her and only send a small party ? Even THE COMPANY isn't that dumb. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 86 16:52:51 GMT From: gouldsd!mjranum@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: ALIENS - public domain idea.... Few years ago I gave away a whole bunch of "ALIEN" t-shirts at a con (balticon@hunt valley) In green letters across the chest "ALIEN" then underneath, a large uneven blotch of red silk-screen paint, with a big hole ripped into it with scissors.... You'll be amazed at the disgusted looks you'll get. Feel free to use the idea, but don't sell it, or I'll send my pet after you... ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 86 22:54:18 GMT From: robert@sri-spam.ARPA (Robert Allen) Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE) shipley@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Peter Shipley) writes: > At the end how did she live thru the pressure drop, let alone hold > on. The same thing happened in 2001 when Dave entered the spaceship by blowing an external hatch and doing an EVA without any equipment. My understanding is that humans can survive exposure to vacuum for short periods of time, although popping of surface blook vessels and other such stuff may occur. Anyone have concrete knowledge of this? > The gernade belt should have made a bigger bang compared to the > one going off. Yes, in fact, I'm surprised she lived through the detonation of multiple grenades in such an enclosed area. Of course, like throwing a pack of firecrackers down, there is no guarantee that they will all go off. > Why didn't the artificial get taken home by the Aliens, I was > waiting for hIm to get munched then have the Alien puke. Aha. This was discussed a little in the book. In fact, he had a run in with an Alien while 'shooting the tube', but apparently he didn't register (smell right?) with the Aliens, and so survived. Given his 'alien' structure, it is quite possible that the artificial couldn't support Alien life. > What I want to see is "The Thing vs The Alien". What I want to see is Robert Heinlein suing Cameron for use of the term "bughunt". It would be a shame, particularly given the upset caused by Harlan Ellisons claims in.re. the plot of the Terminator. Robert Allen, robert@sri-spam.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 86 17:15:59 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: ALIENS ALIENS A film review by Mark R. Leeper Capsule review: James Cameron (THE TERMINATOR) turns in an exciting sequel to a near-classic science fiction film. In spite of many problems, this will still be, very probably, the best fantasy film of the season. There are a number of ways to do a sequel to a film. The best sort of sequel broadens the context of the story in ways the second half of a story does to the first half. There is also the more-of-the-same approach to sequel-making. ALIENS is a riveting action film but it is too much of a more-of-the-same sequel. The viewer will leave the theater a bit out of breath, but not knowing much more about the nature of society in the future or the nature of the alien life form. We learn less new about the alien life form in ALIENS than we learn in five minutes of the original film. The story deals with Ripley (Sigourney Weaver) making it back to civilization and a return visit by some very Heinleinesque marines--loaded with some heavy firepower--to the planet where Ripley's first expedition found the alien. Because of an apparent error in editing we are not sure how much time has passed, but we are led to believe that this is 57 years later and the planet has been terra-formed and colonized by humans. As a sequel, ALIENS has at least two problems. As the title suggests, where there was one monster in ALIEN, this film has many. One would expect each one to be as bad as the monster in the first film. No way. The creature in the first film could have eaten for breakfast most of the monsters in the second film. In specific, the creature in the first film was invulnerable to flame throwers, I think. It seems to me that the new creatures of the same species are not. There just is not enough time to make each creature as bad. The film DAWN OF THE DEAD suffered from the same sort of deflation in monster power. Another problem is the introduction of "soft characters." The film introduces a child character. It is a serious mistake because scriptwriters are bound by certain unwritten rules akin to chivalry about what can and cannot befall weak and sympathetic characters like children. Compare how much softer the tone, and how much less satisfying, the later "Planet of the Apes" films are when compared to the first one or two films. Consider films like THE POSEIDON ADVENTURE where only the weak survive. One final problem is the predictability of certain scenes. Relatively early in the film I was seeing scenes and saying to myself, "I bet there will be a scene in which such-and-such happens later." At least twice I was right about important plot twists toward the end. So with all that going against the film, I must not have liked it, right? Wrong! ALIENS is an exciting film. It is not of the quality of its predecessor, but it has plenty to offer. Rumors were that because it was directed by James Cameron it would be closer to TERMINATOR II than to ALIEN II. Not so. This is a solid action-packed film and even if it is not the most profound piece of science fiction I've seen in a while, it was solid suspense and action. Pieces of the film have a real Heinleinesque feel to them and there is even a reference to John Campbell's Laws of Robotics (popularized by Asimov). While ALIEN deserved a high +2 on the -4 to +4 scale, its sequel gets at worst a low +2. This is likely to be the big science fiction film of the season. Mark R. Leeper ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 86 23:42:01 GMT From: rna!dan@caip.rutgers.edu (Dan Ts'o) Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE) >I thought there were several large logical holes in Aliens. > >1) TIME - The radio communications from the colony stop. This must >have happened when all the colonists got "slimed". So Ripley and >crew hop in a ship and go into DEEP SLEEP to get there. This means >it must take several YEARS to get there. But when they get there, >some of the slimed colonists are still "alive." In Alien, the >"gestation" period of the creature in a human body is a matter of >days, maybe weeks. BUT NOT YEARS !! The creatures also have this >tendency to impregnate any human on sight, so don't try to tell me >they were "saving" these folks for YEARS. True, the crew goes into hibernation. But it isn't clear that it means that it takes a long time to get there. Perhaps it only takes a week to get there but they go to sleep to conserve energy and not get bored. In fact, when the question arises about a possible rescue mission for the crew, the answer was 17 days, although it wasn't clear whether that meant 17 days til they send a rescue mission or 17 days til a rescue mission can arrive. Nevertheless, I got the impression that it would only take a week or two to get there. And it isn't clear that all the colonist got "slimed" by the time the radio signals stopped although it couldn't have been more than a few days afterwards for the last adult colonist to get slimed. There was also some mention that I don't quite recall that Newt, the little girl, has survived for a few weeks. >2) PLOT SLIP-UP - The colonists haven't seen or heard anything >about creatures. But when Ripley shows up, they have a full-blown >research project going on the Alien biology. They even have samples >in jars of live critters (which must have stayed alive for YEARS, >see above). So they have been studying them for some time, WITHOUT >TELLING EARTH ?? A Watergate-style coverup by the company ?? >C'mon.... As above, I don't think its years, but weeks. >3) Strategy slip-up - Would you take EVERYONE off your spaceship >for a ground mission ?? Leaving your backup shuttle up there ? >Making replenishment of supplies a round-trip operation instead of >a one-way operation ?? Cap'n Kirk would never have approved. I agree - stupid. >4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space >ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them, >they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only glimmer >of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an elevator. I don't believe those were the actual circumstances. The large crashed space ship, I believe, was of another intelligent race. It sent out a warning beacon, saying 'stay away', which Ripley's ship intercepted in "Alien". The other race also fell victim to the Aliens. True, the Aliens in "Aliens" exhibited very little intelligence. The Queen did show some. Does that mean that normal (drone ?) Aliens don't have intelligence ? Perhaps. Also, if the Queen had enough intelligence to use and elevator, it should have enough intelligence to use a gun. I guess you could argue that the Alien's goal was not to kill the crew but to use them as incubators. >There are others, but these seem the biggest to me. But don't get >me wrong, it's a great movie. I also thought it was a great movie. The sum total was impressive and entertaining. I did not think it was as scary as "Alien" - much less in the BOO! department. I also thought that Sigourney Weaver wasn't in perfect acting form, tending towards the melodramatic at times. The sequence which tries to convince you that this woman, scared shitless and having continuous nightmare, changes her mind from no way wanting to go back, to agreeing to go back, is far from convincing - it is also too short to be convincing (but that isn't Weaver's fault). It probably would have been better off starting directly with the new mission or portraying her as being anxious to go back to destroy the Aliens. Best scene (though somewhat predictable) is when Ripley comes out to do battle with the Queen in the man(person?)-amplifier (the loading helper). Since the Queen manages to survive liftoff and space long enough to hang on to the second shuttle and show up in the mother ship, there is the possibility that she could somehow survive the ejection from the mother ship into space to return (in Alien 3). Then, there is still always the cat... Cheers, Dan Ts'o Dept. Neurobiology Rockefeller Univ. 1230 York Ave. NY, NY 10021 212-570-7671 ...cmcl2!rna!dan rna!dan@cmcl2.arpa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Jul 86 0950-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #203 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 23 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 203 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 19 Jul 86 19:48:02 GMT From: okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (The New Number Who) Subject: Valar/Maiar living in Middle Earth milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes: >I don't recall the Valar or the Maiar actually living in Middle >Earth (excluding a couple of Valar who were virtually part of >Middle Earth). I beg to differ. What about Melian the Maia, who wed Elu Thingol and bore Idril (?), who married Tuor? And what about Ulmo, who supposedly dwelt in the Sea? Jeff Okamoto ..!ucbvax!okamoto okamoto@ucbvax.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 86 23:47:24 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: Who were the Istari? >Saruman as a Maia? I thought he was numbered among the Istar; >longlived but mortal! > >What was the origin of the Istar anyhow? Both at once: the Istari were Maiar. There is material concerning them in either Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales -- so once again, we cannot have complete confidence in what it says, but there is nevertheless nowhere else to look. The Istari were evidently five Maiar who were highly considered by the Valar, including Elbereth. In Valinor they were summoned and dispatched to Middle Earth to help Elves and Men against Sauron's plots -- after the disaster of Beleriand, the Valar didn't dare try matching their power against his openly -- not that they would have lost, but half Middle Earth might have been destroyed in the process. The five were forbidden to use their power against Sauron openly, presumably for the same reason. Of the five, Curunir and Olorin are mentioned specifically. According to the account, Elbereth particularly wanted Olorin to go, though he was reluctant, having concerns of his own in Valinor. When he was named as "the last", Elbereth put in "not the last", and the account says Curunir remembered that, implying that the seeds of their eventual rivalry and enmity were laid there. Considering that for many centuries after that Curunir worked honestly in his commission, and was trusted for longer than that, I'm not sure how much credence to put in the implication. "Immortal" in Middle Earth does not seem to mean "impervious to death", but rather "not dying naturally with the passage of time". Certainly Elves enough came to death over the course of three Ages. According to Silmarillion, a couple of Balrogs were also killed (by Elves, so it was not simply a matter of greater powers destroying lesser). Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 86 00:15:43 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: Evil in Tolkien not understanding good MRC@PANDA writes: > Elsewhere, Tolkien makes it quite clear that part of the >nature of evil is that it cannot understand good, which was one of >the main weapons Gandalf, Galadriel, etc. had against Sauron. They >all knew what Sauron was up to but Sauron had no way of >understanding their plans. gds@sri-spam responds in part: >I believe Tolkien said that evil, Morgoth specifically, cannot >understand mercy. Morgoth did not expect the Valar to return to >Middle-Earth to do battle with him and his armies because he did >not believe that the Valar cared any more about the exiles. >Morgoth did in fact understand much of what was going on in >Middle-Earth . . . I would say this is the right track. I think what was meant was that the Good have motivations which Evil cannot understand, and that however finely Evil judges (and Gandalf often warns that Sauron is in fact very wise), it cannot properly take account of those motivations, and therefore misjudges. Mercy was certainly among those motivations. A desire simply to end domination, rather than replacing one dominator with another, was another. This was the slim hope on which the Quest of the Ring was based: the likelihood that, in all his plans and considerations, it would never occur to Sauron that, having found his Ring, his enemies would try destroy it, instead of using it against him. (This is all said at the Council of Elrond, which I won't repeat here.) I might almost say that the set of motivations of the "Evil" were a subset of those of the "Good": "Good" could therefore understand them all, but "Evil" was restricted to understanding only its own. Which was one of "Good"'s few advantages, because the "Evil" parties frequently had much greater strength. In the end (Sauron's, specifically), it was the telling advantage; but it came within a hairsbreadth of not being so. By the way, I think Tolkien would want it emphasised that the "Evil" and "Good" of the argument are purely those of various parties in Middle Earth. He stated plainly his dislike of allegory, so I think it should be understood that no broader statements concerning Evil and Good are implied. He would in any case have left such work to his good friend C. S. Lewis, who did it magnificently. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 86 09:05:07 GMT From: maryland!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Lindor) Subject: Re: Hobbits, Beornings, et al. robert@weitek.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) writes: >One thing that is very clear in Tolkien is that the Elves just >aren't very interested in things that aren't Elvish. The only >reason Men are mentioned as often as they are in Elvish chronicles >is that Men played a major part in the Elvish wars against Morgoth >and Sauron. I would not have put it quite that way, but that is, for the most part, true, I suppose. >Elvish writings on other races were always hit-or-miss. They >remembered many old songs about the Ents, but hadn't actually >*visited* them in centuries. They virtually ignored the Eagles. >They dealt with Dwarves rarely (except for the Elves of Hollin (and >look what happened to them!:-) ), and hadn't even *noticed* >Pukel-men or hobbits. Much of this is overstatement. And for that matter, what is a few hundred years more or less to an Elf? (Well, I admit it is quite a bit to *me*, but I am very young. When Celeborn---not the famous one, but named after him---speaks of `a while ago', for example, he may mean a millenium!) >Thus, even if the Elves once knew where all these guys came from, >the individuals with the knowledge passed over the sea, or got hit >over the head with an Orc's club, and their knowledge wasn't >preserved. And by the Third Age, the Elves weren't traveling much >any more, so they were unlikely to re-discover anything. On the contrary, the knowledge was passed down in song and story. It is true that most of the High-elves were rather stationary then, though according to our own legends, my ancestors were still wandering about. Who, you may wonder, were those? In your translations, it is said that the last Elves left Middle- earth in the Fourth Age. This statement is quite clear, succint, unequivocal---and wrong. Someone seems to have forgotten us again! There is one group of Elves seldom mentioned: the Avari. Perhaps someday I shall tell our story. Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1516) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 86 10:34:40 EDT From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA Subject: Tolkien Excuse me for making this statement, as I am not an authority, just a fan, but things are getting a little out of hand here. First, we get a message from Mr Dalton that states that the author of LotR is not the final authority on the book he wrote. And then, Mr Milne (who seems to be an authority, with a lot of carefully thought out and well presented views on Middle Earth) goes and agrees with him. NOW WAIT JUST A MINUTE!!!!!! Middle Earth is not a real place. It would be really nice if it were, and I would be in line to buy tickets to the place on the first flight out. But, the whole carefully thought out, well researched place is only a creation - it doesn't exist. Therefore, it doesn't have an objective reality apart from what Mr Tolkien has presented us with. I think that if I wrote a novel, or a series of novels, and someone thereafter refused to believe anything else I wrote about the world-setting of that/those novel(s), I would be furious! LotR is a novel, a story, recounting the destruction of the One Ring. The other books are histories relating in more detail the past, and even the 'present' (in terms of LotR) of Middle Earth. I see no reason that the Silmarillion, especially (tho some of the more recent books are getting more and more fragmentary and contradictory), cannot be taken as the truth as it exists in Middle Earth. Mr Tolkien was a master, but it doesn't seem all that likely that he would conjure up mis-facts about the world he was creating, just because he was creating history and legend. After all, wouldn't we all like the legends of the real world to be true? Well, Tolkien's legends were in Middle Earth. Also, tho he began creating his world long before LotR came out, he never stopped. I think he can be forgiven if a few errors crept into the manuscript (some of you out there might ascribe these errors as mis-translations from Westron, or, as was the case when our own books were hand-copied, a slip of the pen, or, since the Red Book was written after the fact, just a bad memory), or errors developed as he focused his creation over the years after the first editions were published. To ignore his words about his own work, even when they contradict what was set down in LotR (which has yet to be carved in stone, anyway), seems to me to be a vast disservice to the Creator of Middle Earth - taking away his deed to his creation. (This should spark a lively, if a little hot, discussion, eh? :-) ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 86 17:53:26 GMT From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Elves reincarnate? (was Re: Orcs) friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes: >No, [Elves] *are* reincarnated. It is even mentioned(in passing) in >The Silmarillion, I believe in the early creation accounts where >the natures of the various races are described. The basic point is >this, the Elves are tied for all time to Ea, while Men after a >brief time in the halls of Mandos pass beyond Ea into a different >existance, presumably what we call Heaven. I was going to post this article in opposition to Sarima, but (-: to my horror :-) I find that he is right: In Chapter One "Of the Beginning of Days" of _The Silmarillion_, JRRT writes: ...the Elves die not until the world dies . . . and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, _whence they may in time return_ [emphasis mine]. There is some question as to what ultimately happens to Men, though: In Chapter Twelve "Of Men" [ibid.]: What may befall their spirits after death the Elves know not. Some say that they too go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and Mandos under Iluvatar alone save Manwe knows whither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea. It makes sense that Men would in fact stay briefly in Mandos, for Luthien must have had a chance to catch up to Beren and persuade Namo to allow her to bring him back. (I was originally going to use Beren and Luthien as evidence, saying "What makes them so special if reincarnation is fairly commonplace?" when I remembered the answer: Luthien is special because she in truth died as Men do, and Beren is special because he alone of _Men_ reincarnated. They were both special in many other ways, too, of course, but I'm talking post-death matters here.) pH ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 86 20:09:44 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Hobbits, Beornings, et al. robert@weitek.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) writes: >is descended from a "renegade" Maia; one who found Middle-Earth so >fascinating that he forsook his duties to live there. Tom Bombadil >is another who falls into this category. For that matter, so do >Sauron, Saruman, the Balrog of Moria, Shelob, and Radagast the >Brown. No, Radagast the Brown is one of the five Istari who were *sent* to Middle Earth in the Third Age to combat Sauron. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 86 18:25:04 GMT From: ubc-cs!andrews@caip.rutgers.edu (Jamie Andrews) Subject: Not Bored of the Rings Yet Thanks to Stella for tipping me off on the raging Tolkien discussion. Some random notes on subjects recently discussed follow. A helpful hint for reading _The Silmarillion_: there are basically five main "new" stories in it: the story of Feanor and the fall of the Noldor, the story of Beren and Luthien, the story of Turin, the story of Earendil, and (interspersed all through the Beleriand part) the story of Maeglin, Tuor, and Gondolin in general. I consider the rest of it as just framework around these five main stories; they can be read somewhat separately (Beren and Luthien is the best example), though with a finger in the appendices. Atalante: see Carpenter's biography of Tolkien for indisputable evidence that the Numenor myth grew out of Tolkien's interest in Atlantis. Bombadil: I could see him most easily as a Maia. Goldberry: he refers to her as "River-Woman's daughter" -- I assume this means she is the daughter of Uinen (the female Maia of inland waters) and her mate Osse (the male Maia of the coasts). Elves reincarnated?: I believe Glorfindel is the *only* example of any Elf being reincarnated, and that may even be a glitch in JRRT's universe that was just pointed out by CJRT. Normally I think Elves went back to Valinor (not to Mandos proper) after death -- when Finrod dies, for example, he is said to be rejoined in Valinor with his father Finarfin, who never died. Saruman's death: I read the cloud looking to the West as Saruman asking to be reincarnated in the same way as Gandalf was. Galadriel: one of the major problems JRRT faced in compiling _Silm_ was how to fit Galadriel in, she being a later addition to the universe. I don't think even he completely understood her place in with the rest of the (rather nasty) Noldor. Sauron in the Fall of Gondolin: I doubt it. I'm a kind of expert on Gondolin and I don't believe JRRT or CJRT ever mentioned Sauron being there. I think after his run-in with Luthien he just kind of cowered in Thangorodrim. Gothmog seems to have been the field general for the conquest of Gondolin. Choice/Mortality: I recently posted to net.games.frp about my theory of all this stuff. The Noldor, in choosing to defy the Valar, partially forfeited their immortality ("slain ye can be, and slain ye shall be"). Turin and Tuor were basically manipulated by Valar (Morgoth and Ulmo, respectively), and effectively gained immortality in this way (Turin was invincible and had to kill himself, Tuor became really immortal). I believe it was Gryphon who gave a good "mythopoeic" explanation for the connection. Ungoliant: it may be that her name was derived from the word for "spider", but since Tolkien suggests that she was the progenitor for all spiders, it's more likely that the word for "spider" was derived from her name. Theory of Shape-Shifting?: where the power of shape-shifting comes from is an interesting area, one which Tolkien seemingly wasn't interested enough to explore. Seems to be just a form of "magic" that lots of beings, even mortals, found useful enough to learn. Jamie. ...!ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!ubc-cs!andrews ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Jul 86 0820-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #204 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 24 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 204 Today's Topics: Books - Farmer & Heinlein & May & McCollum & Myers, Films - Books into Films (4 msgs), Music - SF Music (2 msgs), Television - Max Headroom (2 msgs) & Star Trek (3 msgs) & Gerry Anderson, Miscellaneous - SF Writers Group (2 msgs) & Has This Been Done? (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Jul 86 23:35:07 PDT From: chuq@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: When will the Riverworld Series End? simon@einode.UUCP (Simon Kenyon) writes: >does anybody have any idea when the riverworld series (used to be >trilogy...) by Farmer will end. i've been reading it for such a >long time and would like an ending :-( I think it ended after the second book. Someone forgot to tell Farmer, though. (chuq -- note heavy grin....) ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 86 17:46:16 GMT From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Lazarus Long, found in _The_Past... ndd@duke.UUCP (Ned D. Danieley) writes: >I recently re-read several of the stories in TPTT, and it seems >unlikely that any of the characters in, for instance, "The Long >Watch" or "Gentlemen, Be Seated" could have been LL. I suspect, in >fact, that he doesn't appear in any recognizable form in >any< of >the shorts; I believe that most of them predate "Methuselah's >Children". I don't think that Heinlein got on to this business of >tying LL into his universes until relatively recently. It depends on how you mean "predate"--in the chronology of the Future History, _Methuselah's Children_ takes place last of all the stories in _The Past Through Tomorrow_; on the other hand, _MC_ was his first published novel, so a majority of the stories in _TPTT_ were written after it. Nevertheless, you are right in that Lazarus doesn't appear in any of them--in fact, after his first appearance in _MC_ his second appearance didn't occur until _Time Enough For Love_, written thirty-five years later. pH ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 86 23:39:59 PDT From: chuq@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Julian May > If you thought *Silverlock* dragged in too many myths/legends, by > all means avoid Julian May's Pleistocene series. I barely made it > through the first book alive. Aiken Drum, fercryinoutloud! I haven't read Silverlock yet, but I thought I'd point out that the Pleistocene series DEFINITELY gets better as you go along. The first book got tossed against the wall about 100 pages in, but someone convinced me to hold on and keep reading. By the end of the fourth book, I was in love with the entire series. There is a LOT of preliminary material. Most of the first book is really just setting the stage for the fun stuff to come. Keep at it. You'll thank me later, just as I thanks the person who sent me back into the fray. chuq ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 86 19:05:23 GMT From: wales@neptune.cs.ucla.edu (Rich Wales) Subject: McCollum Life Probe sequel? Does anyone know whether Michael McCollum is planning a sequel to his "Life Probe" series (LIFE PROBE and PROCYON'S PROMISE)? His latest book, ANTARES DAWN -- which I bought yesterday and finished this morning (!) -- is _not_ a "Life Probe" sequel, but a completely unrelated work. (I did find it enjoyable, though -- after getting over the *MAJOR* *LETDOWN* of realizing that it wasn't a sequel after all.) Rich Wales UCLA Computer Science Department +1 213-825-5683 531 Boelter Hall Los Angeles, California 90024 wales@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU ...!(ucbvax,ihnp4)!ucla-cs!wales ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 86 00:35:38 GMT From: dyon@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Dyon Anniballi) Subject: Re: Silverlock (was Rings) wombat@ccvaxa.UUCP writes: >If you thought *Silverlock* dragged in too many myths/legends, by >all means avoid Julian May's Pleistocene series. I barely made it >through the first book alive. Aiken Drum, fercryinoutloud! I thought the purpose of Silverlock *was* to include thoses legends/stories/etc. One of the great pleasures of reading it was to try to identify as many as possible. (sort of an exploration of the 'commonwealth of letters'...) Myers' purpose seemed to be to get the reader interested in reading other literature (see the very end of the book). Morgan ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 86 07:03:35 GMT From: brahms!jablow@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Films of favourite sf books I would really like to see a film of THE CAVES OF STEEL, by Asimov. The movie wouldn't need many special effects, would need few special sets and mattes, and would be a perfect example of a sf movie of character as opposed to technology. Any comments? Respectfully, Eric Robert Jablow MSRI ucbvax!brahms!jablow ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 86 22:26:37 GMT From: tekcrl!patc@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Films of favourite sf books I think a book that would make a great film is "Rendezvous with Rama" by Arthur C. Clarke. It is a good story and would require some ( but not a lot) of SFX. It has a lot of action, a plot that has several threads running through it, and a logical story line. The only problem with it as a movie, The director would probably have one of the aliens jump out and eat someone. Pat Caudill Tektronix!tekcrl!patc ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 86 21:33:14 GMT From: griffith@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Cutter John) Subject: Re: Films of favourite sf books jablow@brahms.UUCP (Eric Robert Jablow) writes: >I would really like to see a film of THE CAVES OF STEEL, by Asimov. >Any comments? Excellent idea! I think the other two, however, would fail as movies. The plot of all three books are science fiction on the surface, but I think that COS would be the only one to sell as a SF movie, since it is the one of the three with the strongest SF elements. I think this is mainly because it is the first, and Asimov had to bring more SF into it to explain the galactic culture and structure. The other two are basically nothing more than mysteries, (although the first one is too, it has the SF to fall back on), and mysteries generally have a hard time at the box office. The matte work would really have to be good, though, to give the movie the respect it deserves. Jim Griffith griffith@pavepaws.BERKELEY.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 86 15:54:22 GMT From: rec@mplvax.nosc.MIL (Richard Currier) Subject: Re: Films of favourite sf books daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp) writes: >> >>...(Stainless Steel Rat books would make good films)... >> > The only suggestion I've had so far for Angelina is Jane >Seymour, but I don't really agree with this one. Anybody else have >any suggestions? Christine DeBell !!!!! richard currier marine physical lab u.c. san diego {ihnp4|decvax|akgua|dcdwest|ucbvax}!sdcsvax!mplvax!rec ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 1986 19:56:25 PDT Subject: Canonical SF music list From: Tom Galloway <GALLOWAY@B.ISI.EDU> Remember all that discussion late last year about SF music? The one that was a repeat of a discussion from before? etc.? Well, this is *not* an attempt to start it up again. However, I do have use for a canonical SF music list. Namely as a resource for a proposed upcoming show on Hour 25, the L.A. area weekly F&SF radio show hosted by Harlan Ellison. Unfortunately, the archives for Volume 10 of SF-L are offline, and according to Saul can't really be brought back online easily. But since this topic comes up about once a year, a canonical list would be useful, and could be added to the archives. So please *mail*, do not post, to me any of the following you have; 1) A canonical list you constructed last year (this would be perfect). 2) The information that you have that part of the archives off-line and FTPable. 3) (Shudder) Any SF related songs/music that you know of. This includes pop, classical, scores, etc. Include the composer/performer if you know it. I'll post the results to the net. Really. I will. tyg galloway@b.isi.edu ...lll-crg!tyg (the top address is prefered) ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 86 17:31:14 GMT From: glasgow.glasgow!taylor@caip.rutgers.edu (Jem Taylor) Subject: Re: Max Headroom origin (?) Incidentally, there was once a mod(ish)/punk(ish) band, way back in '78 or so, called 'Max Headroom and the Car Parks'. The only track of theirs I ever heard was called DONT PANIC ( and this was before Hitch-hikers Guide, I b'lieve ), with memorable lines like DONT PANIC ... if you can't afford to getta Lambretta DONT PANIC if you panic then you wont get on the rad-i-o etc If anyone knows more of this excellent track and band, please write! Jem JANET: taylor@uk.ac.glasgow.cs USENET: { uk }!cs.glasgow.ac.uk!taylor ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 86 14:47:35 GMT From: davida@umd5.umd.edu (David Arnold) Subject: Re: Max Headroom origin (?) jennings@onion.cs.reading.AC.UK (Richard Jennings) writes: >sch@druky.UUCP writes: >> By the by, I am still waiting for someone to come up with >>the title of this movie. I would appreciate it. > > Believe it or not: ``Max Headroom''. On Cinemax it was called 'The Max Headroom Story'. He also hosts *bad* movies Saturday at 11:30 PM.... he complemented Reefer Madness quite well ... David Arnold University of Maryland UUCP: {{allegra,seismo}!umcp-cs,ihnp4!rlgvax}!cvl!umd5!davida ARPA: davida@umd5.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 23 JUL 86 11:14-EST From: JJL8733%RITVAXC.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA Subject: Good old Max again Oh by the way folks. That so called M-M-M-Max Box is called a crosshatch generator. Anyone know what that means? Jason Bitnet,Vnet,EARN,NetNorth: jjl8733 at ritvaxc ARPA: jjl8733%ritvaxc.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 86 23:28:44 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: flaming re recasting STAR TREK One of the major weaknesses of the movies is that they've all had to bend themselves into odd shapes to keep Kirk out in space 15-20 years after the original 5-year mission. Arguably this is because Scotty (among others) has aged severely since the TV show was filmed. Starting with a new (or substantially new) crew would be a leap forward for plausible scripts; there's no reason why a cast couldn't be found with whom the audience could be as empathetic as with the originals. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 86 16:24:49 GMT From: mmm!cipher@caip.rutgers.edu (Andre Guirard) Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series halloran@unirot.UUCP (Bob Halloran) writes: >NEFF@su-sierra.arpa writes: >>The rumor is that 20th Century Fox has (about to) contract with >>Paramount for a new Star Trek TV series... There will be an all >>new cast for the series, with current major characters doing cameo >>appearances and current minor characters doing entire shows as >>guests. > >Won't these studio morons LEARN?!?!... A good portion of Trek's >continuing popularity is the identification with the crew members. >Expect this one to sink fast. I don't know about that! It wouldn't really be Star Trek, but it still has the potential to be a far-better-than-average SF series. After all, Star Trek is not the last word in SF for television. There can be other series... Andre Guirard La Diablo kiu Strabas ihnp4!mmm!cipher ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 86 21:52:04 GMT From: chabot@3d.dec.com Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series > I *hated* STTMP for a number of reasons, but one of the biggies > was because it was used as a vehicle for the introduction of new > characters central to the plot. I hated "Star Trek: The Motionless Picture" for that too, but for a different reason: new characters were proposed or introduced, and then trashed. I'd like to have both old characters and new ones. This is also why I hated "The Search for the Director": Kirk's son, one of the symbols of change and future, gets trashed, so that the Vulcan Vestal Virgins can resurrect Spock from the guillotine. Bah. Why is it only the old characters are redeemed and continue? Life without change is death. l s chabot ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 86 16:44:03 GMT From: ihuxe!rwn@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Neumann) Subject: "Gerry Anderson" fan club A few years ago I saw an ad in the back of STARLOG magazine regarding a "Gerry Anderson" adult fan club that existed in England. They published a magazine called "Supermarionation." For those of you who do not remember, Gerry Anderson is a British sci-fi tv/movie producer who is responsible for the TV shows Supercar, Fireball XL5, Stingray, Thunderbirds, UFO, and Space 1999. Only UFO and Space 1999 used "real people." The characters in the other programs were actually marionettes -lifelike "puppets". The shows were very popular in Europe and America and recently had a popularity resurgence in Japan. My question is- does the fan club still exist, or are there other adult fan clubs that now exist that are dedicated to the "Gerry Anderson" shows? Also, does anyone know of any sources of videtaped (VHS format) examples of the older shows, i.e Thunderbirds, etc. I understand that videotapes of the shows are available in England, but the video tape format is different from VHS. Thank you for your help. Bob Neumann 9020 Primrose Lane Hickory Hills, Ill 60457 ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 86 00:41:29 GMT From: li@uw-vlsi.ARPA (Phyllis Li) Subject: Re: SF Writers' Group I would be really interested in such a group, and I would appreiate it if you would put me on the list. Thanks... USENET: ihnp4!akgua!sb6!fluke!uw-vlsi!li ARPA: li@uw-vlsi.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 86 18:16:46 GMT From: jhunix!ins_amap@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark ) Subject: Re: SF Writers on the net > I am an amateur (so far) SF writer and would like to cast another > vote for an SF writers' group or mailing list. I am a member of > the Fantasy & Science Fiction Workshop and would like to know if > there are any other members who are on the net. Anyone out there? What, pray tell, is the F&SF Workshop? Is it associated with The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction? And if so, can I join, please??? Mark ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 86 15:59:49 GMT From: jhunix!ins_apmj@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick M Juola) Subject: Re: Has this been done? It's been done. I've seen several eminently forgettable Tarot books -- a stranger (Fool) comes into town, established himself as a (Magician), ticks off the (High Priest), romances HP's girlfriend (High Priestess), starts messing around with things leading to (Death), but the noble HP finally kicks some serious *ss, winning back his girlfriend and most of the known (World). Get the picture? I also think that anything involving Tarot cards will look sick when placed on a shelf next to Zelazny's *Amber* series. (My apologies if you're as good a writer as Zelazny.) I'd *still* like to see this idea done well, but I think you'd have to do it totally outside of a swords'n'sorcery/fantasy setting. It might be interesting in a PARANOIA-type corridor culture, or in a modern era. Just stay away from *anything* that might be a cliche. Good luck! Pat Juola Hopkins Maths {seismo!umcp-cs|ihnp4!whuxcc|allegra!hopkins}jhunix!ins_apmj ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 86 22:54:45 PDT From: lah%miro@berkeley.edu (Cmndr. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Tarot Trumps for Chapters Well, actually, I've done it. I've sent such a book to 3 publishers so far without success. I'm waiting for Avon to buy my latest book (I know they'll want that one, because it isn't Celtic (but that's another flame)) and then say, "Oh, by the way, do you have any other books?" so that I can say, "Oh, I just happen to have this Celtic book with Tarot Trump chapters." And by then it will be too late for them because I'LL HAVE A CONTRACT <snicker> Probably just wishful thinking, but ya never know... Regards, Leigh Ann ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Jul 86 0841-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #205 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 24 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 205 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (6 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Jul 86 01:31:26 GMT From: oakhill!hunter@caip.rutgers.edu (Hunter Scales) Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE) In ALIEN, the original creatures were found in embryonic form in an alien spaceship. The spaceship, however was _not_ built by the same race as the creature but by another alien race. They were gigantic by our standards but apparently served the same incubating function as humans. The original sets were designed by H. R. Geiger and were tremendously effective and chilling. Hunter Scales Motorola Semiconductor Inc Austin, Texas {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax,gatech}!ut-sally!oakhill!hunter ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 86 23:51:32 GMT From: srt@ucla-cs.ARPA (Scott Turner) Subject: ALIENS (*spoilers*) Just a couple of errors I noticed in ALIENS: * What kind of Marines leave the ramp to a landing vehicle down in hostile territory? * Hicks says the relief mission will show up in 17 days. So why use cold sleep to make the trip? * The android said the platform was too weak to support the landing craft so he had to circle it around. But the landing craft was shown hovering. Why not just hover off the platform? * Why doesn't Ripley load her guns before she leaves the landing craft? Why doesn't she carry an extra clip or two for the gun? How about a handgun? She was also pretty blithe about using the gun and the hand grenades underneath the "thermal converters" - something she'd warned others against earlier - which was presumably more dangerous now that the plant was about to blow sky-high. * Why doesn't she subject Hicks and the girl to some kind of bio-scan once they get back up in orbit to make sure they aren't carrying an Alien embryo (eg, "sequel blindness": More Aliens). * If the android is programmed with Asimov's laws, why does he try the mumbledy-peg game with Hudson's hand? Scott ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 86 05:53:45 GMT From: eneevax!hsu@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Hsu) Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE) robert@sri-spam.ARPA (Robert Allen) writes: >As far as "not showing a glimmer of intelligence", who says it was >happenstance that the Aliens built their nest in the one area where >they had access to underground tubes, and where heavy weapons >couldn't be used against them? I don't think that's the reason. In fact, I was surprised that Ripley never thought to use the big guns on the transport. More motivating factors for building the nest where it was: 1) the first level with a large open central floorspace (under the tank) and still labyrinthine approaches, and 2) heat. Remember, we're in the midst of a power system's cooling hydraulics. Consider the strong (visual) parallels to a termite colony. >> Point: When Ripley hit the airlock, ole Queenie was hanging on to >> her leg and Ripley onto the ladder. Why didn't Ripley's leg and >> the Queen fly off into space? I'd think Ripley's joints would >> fail before the Queen's strength (remember BIshop?). Sigh. > >I think that Ripley should at least have lost a foot. It would >have been more believeable, and also would have shown that in the >_REAL_ world, the ending is not always a happy one. Ditto. I was disappointed. If losing a limb in the final climax is good enough for Luke Skywalker, it ought to be good enough for Ripley. >> Question: Anybody know how they filmed the powerloader sequences? >> It would seem to me that it would be hideously overbalanced given >> the size of those hydraulic claws. Maybe lots and lots of >> braces.... > >Believe it or not, major portions of the battle between the Queen >and Ripley were done with models. It was excellent stop action >model photography, and probably used matts to make it seem as if >Ripley really was in the powerloader model. Actually, powered exoskeletons have always been hideously unbalanced, which is why you don't see them used very often. General Electric has been manufacturing them for years (almost decades). David Hsu (301) 454-1433 || -8798 || -8715 Communications & Signal Processing Laboratory Systems Research Center, Bldg 093 The University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 ARPA: hsu@eneevax.umd.edu UUCP: [seismo,allegra,rlgvax]!umcp-cs!eneevax!hsu ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 86 09:09:29 EDT (Wednesday) From: power.Wbst@Xerox.COM Subject: Aliens With respect to Jerry Boyajians' positive review of Aliens: I couldn't agree more. Small Spoiler: Jerry notes: 'However, this is not clear in the film, and it seems as if there is a remarkable coincidence that the colony (which has been on the planet for quite some time) should have a pest-control problem just as Ripley reaches Earth.' At one point in the movie, Ripley tells the Company Sleaze that she knows he sent the colonists to the ship (without warning them of the dangers) after she told about it in her debriefing. My only gripe with the movie was the painfully obvious (to me anyway) insertion of a sequel possibility at the end. Major Spoiler: The very convenient departure of the android with the ship gave him an opportunity to get a bug and stick it on Hicks face. Remember that when he finally comes back to get Ripley, Hicks is drugged and never regains consciousness. This might not seem important if you haven't seen the movie but it's pretty obvious that everything was being set up for a happy ending with Ripley, Hicks and the Kid being a cozy threesome. In all such movies the wounded party would come to woozy consciousness at the end, grasp the heroines hand and give her a knowing, searching gaze and a smile right before he goes into deep freeze. Instead he's just a loose end, an unconsciousness slab of meat. To me that says he's got an Alien in his gut waiting to come out and be 'Son of Aliens', or 'Aliens, Part II or III, Depending On How You Number It' or perhaps (told from the kids point of view) ' My Brother Was a Teenage Alien'. Ah well, this is a tradition that's been going on since the silents. It's just amazing that in movie life no matter how hard you kill something, it always comes back to eat somebody else. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed 23 Jul 86 11:12:48-EDT From: Ben Bishop <T.SAILOR%DEEP-THOUGHT@EDDIE.MIT.EDU> Subject: xenomorph hunts, Alien, Aliens, and information Aliens - The new movie Since I've read the book and seen the movie, I thought I'd throw in a few notes about ALIENS and the messages that have already appeared. This may contain ***SPOILERS*** but not more than have already been written. First, note that the film is extremely feminist in nature. Ripley is the hero. Newt (a little girl) is the only survivor of a colony with 150 people. The biggest, nastiest bug on the planet is 'mom'. Vasquez is the toughest grunt in the marine troup. Hunt (the male tech-op) is a wimp. Paul Reiser plays a company-man who is a marvelous worm. The lieutenant who leads the marines is an incompetent. Michael Biehn (of the Terminator fame) plays the only man who shows any 'guts' in the film; Corporal Hicks, and that only because he's calm, cool, and follows Ripley's suggestions. Now, Bruce Cheney writes: > 1) TIME - The radio communications from the colony stop. This must > have happened when all the colonists got "slimed". So Ripley and > crew hop in a ship and go into DEEP SLEEP to get there. This means > it must take several YEARS to get there. But when they get there, > some of the slimed colonists are still "alive." In Alien, the > "gestation" period of the creature in a human body is a matter of > days, maybe weeks. BUT NOT YEARS !! The creatures also have this > tendency to impregnate any human on sight, so don't try to tell me > they were "saving" these folks for YEARS. 'Deep Sleep' does not imply slow ships. Even if it only takes weeks to get somewhere (and it did -- remeber when Ripley asked how long till they would be found overdue?) you don't want to go stir crazy in a ship. That is why they sleep. I must agree that there is some question for the timing of the embryo implantation to 'hatching'. Cain (in Alien) couldn't have been out for more than a couple days (it seemed maybe two) before it burst onto the scene -:). The last(? unclear) colonist gave 'birth' a day or so after the marines arrived. Maybe they were taking their time (the colonists weren't going anywhere). They also had to get enough eggs to do them all (there were 150 colonists). > 2) PLOT SLIP-UP - The colonists haven't seen or heard anything > about creatures. But when Ripley shows up, they have a full-blown > research project going on the Alien biology. They even have > samples in jars of live critters (which must have stayed alive for > YEARS, see above). So they have been studying them for some time, > WITHOUT TELLING EARTH ?? They weren't. The Aliens didn't take over in a day. The book made it clear that only one colonist was 'infected' when they first looked at the space ship. Give a couple days for it to hatch; a few more for it to begin infecting others (see below) and then the war begins. The colonists (according to the movie) got the live ones by surgically removing them from their hosts (killing the people they were attached to in the process). They at least had a few days grace to find out what they were fighting before they were overcome. And, referring to my answer above, those critters only needed to stay alive in those jars for a few weeks to months at most. > 3) Strategy slip-up - Would you take EVERYONE off your spaceship > for a ground mission?? [...] Cap'n Kirk would never have approved. Yes. If I only had a dozen people, had a system that was reasonably automated and was as overconfident as the marines obviously were. Cap'n Kirk had the accumulated wisdom of Starfleet regarding hostile Xenomorphs ('bugs' in marine slang) to know not to do that -- not to mention having a crew of 400 and lots of spare red shirts to order around. The marines supposedly had done easy bug hunts before. > 4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space > ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them, > they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only > glimmer of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an > elevator. What? The Aliens flew that ship there? I didn't know that. Who/what was the huge creature with the chest blown out from the first movie. It seemed clear to me (in the first movie) that the aliens killed the crew members on that ship after it had landed (or something similar, since it never is officially stated) and just set up the eggs for long term storage. Remember the 'blue mist' from the first movie? Who created that? It seems like reasonably high technology to me. One of the grunts screams that they're just stupid monsters. In the book, Ripley puts it nicely: if they're so stupid, why did they choose the one place in the colony where the marines couldn't use their weapons for fear of blowing everything up? Yes, they're intelligent. The scene where Ripley threatens the eggs and 'Mom' pulls back made me sure of that. The elevator seemed a bit stupid to me. I would have enjoyed it more if she had run up the stairwell. One doesn't know what they would have been doing when all of the eggs were hatched and they had a real community. It seems to me that at the start they would be more concerned with getting a population than with inventing technology. Besides, the colonists gave them all sorts of toys to play with. Now the real problem I have is embryos. It was said that in the first book, Ripley finds Dallas with a bug growing in his chest and she burns him out of kindness. I'm glad they cut that scene, because it would make Aliens completely off the wall. If a lone alien could inplant an embryo, then there is no need for the facehuggers after they get one victim. And there would be no reason for the Queen to be laying eggs. One small point about the movie vs. the book is that in the book Ripley makes it clear she wants to nuke the original alien spacecraft as well. The movie leaves this open -- there may very well be a whole nest of facehugger eggs in that ship even as Ripley heads home. Fortunately they will be smart enough to be more careful next time, won't they? Ben Bishop bishop@athena.mit.edu p.s. I like the description of the mother ship they arive in as a giant flying swiss army knife. It does. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 86 14:02:58 EDT From: Flash%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Rick Flashman) Subject: ALIENS The way I figure it: In the first movie, we were shown TWO alien races inside the ship. The race that BUILT the ship left the WARNING beacon and was killed off by the little critters. Remember that scene where they enter the ship and find a dead alien, about 20 feet long, who has had his stomach blown out by one of the little critters? In the first movie, one was given the impression that the aliens were a local problem discovered by the crew of the first ship (the alien ship) and overcome by it. Then in the second movie they specified (Ripley did) that the aliens where NOT local. I was annoyed at this, where did she get this information? She didn't know. All she knew is they found a ship, she didn't EVEN see the ship. The Aliens are semi-intelligent, but not enough to have a technological society. In the first movie you see how the alien does NOT kill the cat, since it does not consider it a threat. (A sign of SOME intelligence). In the second movie we get more of this. Especially with the last alien in the elevator. Though I was annoyed by the alien's ability to FIND them. In the first movie they always walked into the alien. In the second, the aliens knew exactly where they were, in this mile big facility. Like if they had radar or something. BTW, if the aliens skin is dense enough to sustain molucular acid for blood, wouldn't it be kinda of tough to bullets too? Another lacking point. In the first movie, the meal they had looked like food-from-the-future. While in the second movie we end up looking at T.V. dinners. Another point, in the first movie the little alien (the one that attaches to the face) jumped out and used the acid_blood to dissolve right through the space suit. So, what I want to know, HOW did they manage to keep those other aliens captured inside those containers? Wouldn't they just use their acid to get out? BTW, the trip did NOT take years. In the first movie they said that they where "six months" away from earth. Now, that was a SLOW cargo vessel. Imagine the speed of a FAST military ship? I would give it one month. Just because communications gave out didn't mean everybody was campured at once. Give it that they where first attacked by aliens and communications went dead. Took about a month to leave earth, and month of travel. That gives the colonist 2 months. So, as you saw in the film, they built a little fort, and were captured ONE by ONE. The first people that had the aliens on their faces, they were able to remove TWO, trying to figure out how to control this thing. But in the end, I believe that lady colonist we saw alive, was one of the last fighters, probably captured right before the marines got there. Rick (Flash%UMASS.BITNET) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Jul 86 0850-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #206 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 24 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 206 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Jul 86 8:03:37 GMT From: Keith Dale <kdale@bbncc-eur.ARPA> Subject: Aliens takget!brucec@ciap.rutgers.edu writes: > 4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space > ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them, > they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only > glimmer of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an > elevator. I don't think that the Aliens developed the space ship or piloted it. As I remember, there was a fossilized corpse found found by Dallas and Co. that had had it's chest blown out - it was half-reclining in what could've been a pilot's chair - but it definitely wasn't a "bug". It seems to me that the Aliens were an extremely efficient and nasty form of parasite - no less, and probably not much more. As far as the other plot/story problems go, I'm pretty much in agreement with them, although they didn't interfere with my appreciation of the book (haven't seen the movie *yet*). The time problem IS a problem: I figure that Acheron was about 20 months from Earth (the Nostromo crew was awakened 10 months from home and "about halfway there"). Bear in mind, though, that they were on a freighter/processing plant and not in a Colonial Marines warship... KMD ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1986 11:16 CST From: John Bertram Geis(Syzygy Darklock) Subject: ALIENS ALIENS. What a great film. I just saw it last night, and I'm just about ready to go and do so again (well, maybe I'll wait a couple of weeks). The story was great, the special effects were super, and acting was superb (boy, is that ever a cliched line!!). Just a few comments though... From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) >Other than this parallelism, I see two major problems with the >film. The first is that they is no sense of futurity in the >characters. They are all basicly 20th-Century types transplanted >into the future. The second major problem is a lack of time sense. >One can infer that Ripley's debriefing provided information for the >Company to send the colonists out looking for the alien derelict, >which ended up as the obvious downfall of the colony, and thus, >that it was months after Ripley's return that the colony goes >south. However, this is not clear in the film, and it seems as if >there is a remarkable coincidence that the colony (which has been >on the planet for quite some time) should have a pest-control >problem just as Ripley reaches Earth. I don't understand why a film dealing with the future of mankind is supposed to present us any differently than we are now! The only "20th Century types" which I saw were the Company board and the marines. The company was more concerned about profits than about the people, which is something that I do not believe will ever change. Mankind will always have those who are more concerned for themselves then for the rest of the race. The Marines were just what I expected as well. They were crude, tough and talked constantly about there "conquests" (better known as "dates" to the rest of the human race!). I've never seen a soldier who didn't act like this, especially when going forth into action. From: robert@sri-spam.ARPA (Robert Allen) >The one thing I had a problem with was the fact that the Company >undertook a 20+ year project without a full survey of the planet. >Surely even a half-hearted survey would reveal the alien spaceship? I believe it! Remember, surveys cost money and that cuts into the profits. After all, what kind of intelligence can you expect from an organization that gives someone like Burke (the company man) the authority to screw around with other people's lives. >There is another thing I have a gripe with. It was actually >filmed, and later cut, that Ripley found Burke coccooned when she >went looking for the kid. Ripley gave Burke a grenade so he could >kill himself, rather than dying of chestbursting. What pisses me >off is that the exact same scene was removed from the original >alien. Captain Dallas was found alive, but infected with one or >more alien spawn, Ripley (or whoever found him) torched him out of >compassion. Would have been a great scene, but they cut it out. I was disapointed too. I had myself convinced that she would find Burke down there too, but rather than help him she would just leave him hanging (Sorry if that seems a little to cruel to anyone, just my opinion of what the worm deserves!). I am glad they cut the scene with Dallas in the original movie though. It would have ruined the intensity of the movie, by revealing Ripley's toughness too early! From: turtlevax!hamachi@caip.rutgers.edu (Gordon Hamachi) >Well, now they've really gone and done it! Sigourney (Alien) >Weaver reappears as (believe it or not) Ripley, sole survivor of >Alien (the original). James (the Terminator) Cameron directs yet >another classy action shoot-em-up. Michael (the Terminator) Biehn >seems stuck in a rut as the soldier of the future who is cool and >capable, who but ultimately gets dragged around by tougher and more >capable women. I never thought of that before. I love Biehn's roles in both the Terminator and in Aliens, he plays the soldier so well. But he always ends up with getting his ass hauled to safety (well, almost to safety in the Terminator) by the woman he's supposed to be protecting! Could give a guy an insecurity complex before long! From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA >All in all, the movie was very consistent and logical. There were >no bouts of complete stupidity. No gaping logical holes (that I >saw) although there did seem to be a bit too much gravity on the >ship, but they never pretended to be in free fall. I also thought >the traditional open-the-airlock bit was stretching it a bit, but >within limits. You decide for yourself. I though the airlock was the only tense moment in the whole show, because it was the one place where they could have gotten rid of Ripley, as she had already ensured the safety of Newt, Hicks and Bishop! She could have gone out with the Queen, satisfied to have finally destroyed the Aliens that had been haunting her! >My commendations go to the point-lady, Hernandez (or however they >spelled it). She was tough. "Hey, Hernandez, you ever been >mistaken for a man?" "No, have you?" Her name was Vasquez, and I agree, she was tough and can be on my team any time! >is the reference to a "bug hunt" straight from Starship Troopers or >what? Probably! There were a lot of similarities between the two stories. From: tekgen!brucec@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Cheney) >I thought there were several large logical holes in Aliens. >1) TIME - The radio communications from the colony stop. This must >have happened when all the colonists got "slimed". So Ripley and >crew hop in a ship and go into DEEP SLEEP to get there. This means >it must take several YEARS to get there. But when they get there, >some of the slimed colonists are still "alive." In Alien, the >"gestation" period of the creature in a human body is a matter of >days, maybe weeks. BUT NOT YEARS !! The creatures also have this >tendency to impregnate any human on sight, so don't try to tell me >they were "saving" these folks for YEARS. Hmm, first I doubt that it took that long to get there. Possibly a couple or three months at most. It's simply cheaper and easier on everyone if they are asleep for that time, rather than being awake, eating the food, breathing the air, and losing their "edge" by being constantly on each others nerves. Alternatively, the trip could take only a couple of days in real time and much longer in subjective time on board the ship (perhaps a reversal of Einstein's formulas in the Faster-than-light drive used on the ship? Anybody who's read the book have any ideas?). Besides, Cpl. Hicks said that help would arrive in 17 days once they were discovered to be overdue! Therefore, the trip must have been pretty short (no more than a week anyway!). >2) PLOT SLIP-UP - The colonists haven't seen or heard anything >about creatures. But when Ripley shows up, they have a full-blown >research project going on the Alien biology. They even have samples >in jars of live critters (which must have stayed alive for YEARS, >see above). So they have been studying them for some time, WITHOUT >TELLING EARTH ?? A Watergate-style coverup by the company ?? >C'mon.... What full blown research?? The critters in the lab likely came off of the research team sent to check out the alien spacecraft. Six or eight of them were probably infected, the rest of the team brought them home, and then the original members of the Alien tribe (?!?) were born in the medlab or some other place on the base. Remember, they read the one chart which indicated that one of the colonists had died when the "critter" was removed from his face surgically! >3) Strategy slip-up - Would you take EVERYONE off your spaceship >for a ground mission ?? Leaving your backup shuttle up there ? >Making replenishment of supplies a round-trip operation instead of >a one-way operation ?? Cap'n Kirk would never have approved. Remember, these marines are COMPANY Marines, and just follow orders and operational procedures set down by the Board of Directors (and we all know how swift they are!). Also, they had a rookie Liutenant in charge (only two combat drops!), who was confident that there wouldn't be anything down there that they couldn't handle (WRONG!!!). >4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space >ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them, >they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only glimmer >of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an elevator. Who ever said that the Aliens were the pilots and original owners of downed space ship? I always assumed that they infested the crew of that ship just the same as they did the crew of the Nostromo. In all likelyhood, they were intelligent, but only in the most basic sense, such as any predator is more intelligent than its prey, as demonstrated by the fact that it eats well! The derelict spacecraft was possibly from some other galaxy, and its crew was destroyed by the critters several millenia ago. After that, it drifted into our galaxy and eventually crash-landed on the planet under auto-pilot. The eggs sat and waited for the next several thousand years until the crew of the Nostromo tripped over it and released the horror all over again. (Remember the one skeleton found on the derelict in Alien, with the bones of it's rib cage 'exploded' from the inside. Obviously an infected member of the original crew, whoever they were!) John Bertram Geis (Syzygy Darklock) <GEISJBJ@UREGINA1> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 86 16:47:05 CDT From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA> Subject: Re: Bughunt! (Aliens) Reference the reviews in SF-L #198. Well, let me jump into the solidified resin feet-first... Having taken vacation time yesterday to go see Aliens in a matinee showing (greater love for cheap thrills has no man...), some of this is pretty fresh in my mind (and maybe chest...:-): First off, I tend to agree pretty much with everything Jerry Boyajian said. I did enjoy the film a great deal, myself, so any nits I pick should be taken in that light. The lack of "futurity" does have a negative effect, and I saw that mostly in two aspects: 1. The costuming, especially that of the Company bigwigs. They seemed to wear ordinary 20th-century shirts, ties, and suits, with the only adjustment being that the collars stood up, sort of halfway like Nehru jackets. That introduced a grating sense of dischronicity, to coin a word. After all, isn't this supposed to be at least a couple hundred years in the future? (I don't recall just what the date was; I think it showed up on one of the computer displays, either in this film or in Alien.) Consider how men's fashions have changed in the 200 years since 1786. Why wouldn't they continue to change at least that radically? 2. The weaponry of the Marines. I'm a weapons buff, and I would put the "M-41 Pulse Rifle" at just about the same technical level as the mid-60's US Army work on the SPIW (Special Purpose Individual Weapon). [I think I'm recalling the film's nomenclature correctly there.] The one Marine had a standard current short-barrel, pistol-gripped shotgun. The grenades were pretty obviously 12-gauge-shell-sized, to make the F-X work of fabricating the hardware easier and cheaper -- the close-up shots proved that it was just a regular 12-gauge tube magazine being loaded. The flame throwers were nice, but could have used a line of dialog or so to justify how they could spew many minutes of flame with no external tank or reloading (just some pseudo-science gorp -- I don't expect them to really make it work!). Anyway, I would have preferred some more advanced weaponry, given the chronology. (One side note -- I seem to recall that the Lieutenant said that the guns fired "10 mm" projectiles -- am I right in that? It should have been a much smaller number, then, to be consistent. The digital display of the rifle magazine capacity (nice touch there!) showed a quantity of "95" when fully loaded; if those were 10mm cartridges you could never have gotten 95 of them into a magazine that size [about the same size as a 30-rd 5.56 mm M-16 clip]. He should have said "2 mm" or so -- the historical trend is always toward smaller calibers.) As for plot holes, I agree, upon later reflection, that they were there, but you tend to not notice them in the scenery and effects, which I thought were quite well done. Bruce Cheney was right on the money with catching the time-related and plotting holes he did. I'd counter his #4, on alien technology, with the impression I had from Alien that the crashed ship was one of another race entirely, who were caused to crash by an infestation of their ship by the "aliens" (shall we say "bugs"? let's!). So the bugs need have no technology of their own -- they would just be parasites with minimal intelligence. Maybe we can explain the time problems by making up some rationale -- how about this? The "cold sleep" that Ripley, Burke, and the Marines were in was not to let them endure a long time of sub-light travel, but instead to protect them from the arbitrarily-dangerous effects of being up and awake during the short period of time the military ship took to travel at some super-light speed using some sort of special drive. (This may be like Niven's postulate of people not being able to look into the "nothingness" around you when in FTL travel.) That would give a reason for them to have been frozen for a quick trip, and avoid the years-vs-weeks situations Bruce outlined. I don't recall a trip duration being stated anywhere. (Maybe this is another one of those places where the book must be consulted, instead of the movie's internal reality.) Anyway, this would let the Nostromo, being an ordinary freighter, use cold sleep as a method of preserving the crew during long slow trips, while the military use could be different. For what its worth... One other bit that didn't come across just right was the ability of the "artificial person", Bishop, to survive his injuries. He was obviously organic (we saw enough of his insides!) -- why would he be able to survive the same loss of organs that would kill a human instantly? It was nice that he did, but that wasn't well-enough justified. If he had been mechanical inside, then fine -- he gets torn up, but the real him would be in a brain that just shuts down and then returns upon power-up. Was the nature of the synthetics explored more fully in the book? One last point -- how does a loss of coolant make a fusion reactor blow up? Shut down, yes. Blow up? It does not compute... And what was doing all that exploding and flame-bursting at the end inside the reactor building before the final detonation? I could see some collateral damage from the effects of all the destruction Ripley was wreaking upon sublevel 03, but it seemed a bit hokey to have all those balls of fire. Well, that's enough for now. Remember, no matter what nits I picked, I still liked it. Go see it! Will ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Jul 86 0845-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #207 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 28 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 207 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein & Celtic Myths, Films - Films in Video Stores, Television - Star Trek (6 msgs) & Max Headroom (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - Newsletter Submissions Request & Worldcon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Jul 86 00:00:26 GMT From: ritisis!eer2762@caip.rutgers.edu (Ed Reed) Subject: Re: The Cat Who Walks Thru Walls (One opinion) chrise@ihlpl.UUCP (Chris Edmonds) writes: >... This is in specific response to someone who posted a request a >couple of weeks ago for advice appropriate for making a decision as >to whether to buy TCWWTW in hardcover. A recent check with B.Dalton indicated that the paperback is due this summer or early fall (they didn't say, but it sounded like the title was on their order sheets, or something). I'm gonna wait. Ed Reed - Rochester Institute of Technology phone: (716) 334-3006 Delphi: EERTEST Usenet: ...rochester!ritcv!ritisis!eer2762 ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 86 06:54:15 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Celtic myth references I thought the Malbonigion (sp) was Welsh myths. The Irish myths are supposed to be closer to the original celtic mythos (at least, that's what I heard. Does anyone know for certain?). david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 23-Jul-1986 0823 From: wood%genral.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (CELESTE) Subject: request for movies in video stores Response to request for possible SF movies to get in video. Only the really bad ones are indicated. Most titles are fairly recent or well enough known for no explanation, besides I didn't want to embarass myself by admitting to which ones I haven't seen. Can anyone add to this list? Movies that I have found at local video stores : 2001 Space Oddessy 2010 Buckaroo Bonzai Back To The Future Barbarella (bad but classic) Cocoon Deathrace 2000 (bad but classic) Dragonslayer Dune (The 'dark light' doesn't hurt your eyes nearly as much as in the theatre) Empire Strikes Back Farenheit 451 Galaxina (If you like Playboy centerfolds ... otherwise bad) Mad Max Metropolis Road Warrior Terminator The Thing Time After Time Time Bandits Time Machine (Probably seen on TV 20 times) Wizards Warriors of the Wasteland (don't bother, spanish-italian bad) Xtro (haven't seen, don't plan to) ??? (Movie with Slayers, Widow of the Web, Prince and Princess whose wedding is stopped in the middle of ceremony) Movies that I have NOT found at local video stores but may be in yours: Battle Beyond the Stars BeastMaster Dark Crystal Ghostbusters Highlander Ice Pirates LadyHawke Last Starfighter Lifeforce Mad Max beyond Thunderdome NeverEnding Story Return of the Jedi Runaway Scanners Star Wars Star Trek I,II,III Sorceress Sword and the Sorcerer Warriors of the Wind ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 86 16:57:03 GMT From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series halloran@unirot.UUCP (Bob Halloran) writes: >NEFF@su-sierra.arpa writes: >>There will be an all new cast for the series, with current major >>characters doing cameo appearances and current minor characters >>doing entire shows as guests. > >Won't these studio morons LEARN?!?! The idea of recasting the crew >came up for ST I (The Motion Sickness). The fannish outrage caused >them to reconsider. This was what got us Decker, etc. as they >tried to phase in a replacement crew. We all know how far THAT >got. A good portion of Trek's continuing popularity is the >identification with the crew members. Expect this one to sink >fast. Now now now. It's actually not a bad idea. The original actors a) are getting old, and b) want to do other things. Time for some new blood. I don't think there is anything particularly *sacred* about the original cast, even if none of the originals ever appear in the series, it will probably be better than most of the science fiction on the tube lately. (Of which there is not much, I'm afraid.) The best idea along those lines that I heard was for one (or more) of the former crew members get his/her own command. Sulu was suggested. I think this was only idle speculation at a SF con, so don't take it as a hot rumor. Say, Admiral Kirk appears once in awhile as either fleet admiral or in some offical position back earthside, and the story centers around some new characters with some originals like Sulu and maybe Chekov and Uhura to hold things together. (Durned shame they killed off Kirk's son.) Personally, I have a fantasy about the Enterprise being used as a base ship, with a smaller explorer ship based out of the big E's hanger. (Bigger than a shuttlecraft, maybe the size of the "Dark Star".) Then you arrange things to make more sense militarily: There is a real exploratory party which the shows revolve around, with much less action taking place on the bridge, and get rid of that notion of the Captain always getting in the thick of things. Star Trek the original series was pretty good (oops, I'll get flamed for that) but it centered mostly around only 3 characters. These days, the style is to have many sub-plots involving many characters and some continuity from one show to the next. This plotting style would fit in quite well with a new Star Trek series. Hmmm, starting to sound like 'Hill Street Space Cadets'. :-) Finally, even if the new series is not as good as the first (hard to believe) I don't expect it to sink fast. As I mentioned above, it'd still be better than most of what's on the tube. Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 86 08:44:40 PDT (Wednesday) From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series Learn what? STTM failed as a movie because even the brilliant original cast couldn't do anything with lousy dialogue and over reliance on special effects. STII had both David Marcus and Saavik (as many major new characters as STTM had), but a good script served the entire cast well! Everybody loved it, simply because it was a better movie, not just the casting. STII allowed the characters the CHEMISTRY which made the series so good. I applaud the decision to go with new characters. There have been a panoply of good possibilities from the various Star Trek novels. The problem with using the original cast is that the movies have burned too many bridges. A single starship with an admiral, three captains, and the rest of the crew of commander rank just doesn't make sense. It's not believable. Even the premise of Enterprise as a training ship made the presence of the original cast just barely believable, given their present high rank. Kurt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 86 09:10 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Star Trek Cc: unirot!halloran@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Halloran) Come on, Bob, the original ST actors can't live forever! But I think ST can. What ST NEEDS is a new series about the adventures of the Enterprise (or another starship) with new characters. The mistake they almost made for STI was in keeping the same characters, but recasting (someone suggested Robert Redford for Mr. Spock). What I'd like to see is some carry over from the series: George Takei has been pushing for a Captain Sulu series, and I think that would be perfect. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 86 13:35:12 EDT From: Jim Aspnes <asp@ATHENA.MIT.EDU> To: unirot!halloran@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Halloran) Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series Star Trek was made fifteen years ago. The movies have already had to strain a lot of credibility just to get the old crew back together -- how long do you think they can keep this up? I would welcome a new cast, and I hope that the "studio morons" realize that they can't keep sacrificing the logic and continuity of Star Trek to escape the reactionary whining of some of its more vocal fans before the show dies completely. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 86 06:30:50 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series Roddenberry was talking a while back about the possibility of a new series. He said that it was too difficult to do an hour-long series every week (half of a major motion picture a week). he would have liked to see Star Trek go the route that a number of shows were trying at the time--the once a month, 90 minute format (Ack. I got to thinking after I typed this. Maybe that was what David Gerrold suggested in _The World of Star Trek_. If so, apologies). My brother and I were thinking that this would be pretty nifty--they could do a couple of Roddenberry shows (say, Star Trek and Gary Seven), D. C. Fontanna's show (she had an idea for a show about a scout craft with a small crew), and maybe something else, just to be open minded. Just to bring the idea up to date, maybe it would be possible to do some interleaved Star Treks. Have a Star Trek show which follows two separate ships (and crews) around the galaxy. Show one crew one week, the other the next. You could share a lot of the sets, which could give the effect of a higher budget. Scheduling the use of the sets would be a pain, though. Either one crew would be filming interiors while the other was doing exteriors, or you would need a couple of sound stages. Could be that this is one of those ideas that looks good as long as you don't look too carefully. If Star Trek does come back, they ought to make sure they get a science editor. There were a lot of stupid errors made in the original show. The science editor should also be responsible for consistency (remember "The Lights of Zetar", where Scotty says he doesn't believe in ESP? Thats a little hard to justify, considering Spock, "The Menagerie", "Where No Man Has Gone Before", "Charlie X", "Plato's Stepchildren", etc. Actually, ESP was so common on the show, Scotty may as well have stated that he didn't believe in computers or warp engines). It shouldn't be too hard to find someone halfway competent (like me :-). david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 86 10:11:40 -0400 From: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU> To: Bob Halloran <unirot!halloran@caip.rutgers.EDU> Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series Actually, Decker, etc. didn't survive Star Trek: The Motion Picture in human form. It was not until ST II that new crewmen were introduced and allowed to survive. And Saavik was a good character... But now we have the Kirk and Spock Show, without any boldly going where no man has gone before (grammar?). Leonard Nimoy is directing his second movie and there are rumors of William Shatner directing the next. I say that the actors shouldn't be allowed to control the show and the success of the show doesn't have to depend on the presence of the original actors. That is [this is very important] if there is still some TALENT involved in making the show. The fans can identify with new crew members, and the show can continue indefinitely. This one won't sink fast unless it's lousy. >For those interested in expressing their distaste through >correspondence: 20th Century Fox Publicity, P O Box 900, Beverly >Hills CA 90213 (from trying to encourage the Buckaroo Banzai >sequel). For those interested in expressing their strong approval through correspondence: the above address. Frank Hollander ARPA: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU CSNET: hollande%udel-dewey@csnet-relay UUCP: ...!harvard!hollande@dewey.udel. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 86 10:48:07 PDT From: Michael O'Brien <obrien%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA> Subject: Max Headroom is human I can't give citation, but the Max Headroom character really is played by a human with video post-processing. It takes four hours to get the poor guy into the appliances: if his career had to take off, I'm sure he wishes it could have done so more conveniently! My own opinion is that the Max Headroom introductory pilot is some of the best SF made for TV ever done. Only "The Lathe of Heaven" can compare. Best thing since "Blade Runner". I do wonder if the producer/director team will do any more. The show was so good I sort of wonder what else those folks have done (besides, possibly, music videos), and why I've never heard of them before. Mike O'Brien obrien@rand-unix.arpa {sdcrdcf,decvax}!randvax!obrien ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 86 20:12:43 GMT From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott) Subject: Re: Good old Max again From: JJL8733%RITVAXC.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA > Oh by the way folks. That so called M-M-M-Max Box is called a > crosshatch generator. Anyone know what that means? Nope, he's not a "cross-hatch generator", that's just what the owners of Big Time TV were billed for and didn't know what it was either, shortly before MMMMMax arrived on the scene. I don't know what a crosshatch generator is either, but I'll lay odds on it being future-speak, sf jargon. Tim Abbott ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 86 18:55:33 GMT From: einode!simon@caip.rutgers.edu (Simon Kenyon) Subject: Re: Max Headroom (question) There was a lot of neat graphics in the feature length Max Headroom the character himself however, was not one of them. As for Tony de Whatever and Andre and Wally Bee they are extremely good graphics but I hardly think someone would invest in all those teracycles (and I really mean LARGE quantities of cycles) just to produce a rather interesting video jock Glad to see that British tv is holding its own in the land of the free I don't live in the uk, but we get the tv ok Simon Kenyon The National Software Centre, Dublin, IRELAND simon@einode.UUCP +353-1-716255 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 86 09:46 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Star Trek Newsletter I put out a monthly Star Trek newsletter, the Propagator, and am very interested in getting email contributions. Any short article, review, puzzle, filk or most anything of interest to ST fans (this can include most any media SF such as Doctor Who or reviews of latest movies) would be most welcome. Humor is encouraged, but not required. Especially appreciated would be anything in Macintosh (BinHexed) format, such as MacPaint cartoons. Contributors receive copies. (Hardcopy, US mailed). Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Wed 23 Jul 86 08:03:21-PDT From: Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA> Subject: Re: WORLDCON To: usc-oberon!bishop@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU The following is an extract from SRI-NIC public file <ZELLICH>CONS.TXT: August 28-September 1, 1986 (Georgia) CONFEDERATION (44th World Science Fiction Convention). Hilton and Marriott hotels, Atlanta, GA (Hilton $59 + $10/person, Marriott $76). GoH: Ray Bradbury; FGoH: Terry Carr; TM: Bob Shaw. The SF universe's annual get-together, with professionals and readers from all over the world in attendance. Talks, panels, films, fancy dress competition, the works. Members get to nominate and vote for the Hugo awards and the John W. Campbell Award for Best New Writer, and also may vote for the 1988 and/or 1989 Worldcon sites by paying separate site-selection voting fees. Memb: Supporting $25 until 15 Jul 86, can be converted to attending as late as the convention for the difference between $25 and the then-current Attending rate; Attending $30 thru 3 Sep 84, $35 thru 31 Dec 84, $45 thru 15 Sep 85, $55 thru 31 Mar 86; $65 thru 15 Jul 86, then higher at the door; 1986 site selection voters who were also Pre-Supporting Members of Atlanta in '86 receive Attending Membership at no extra cost; kids 2 & under free, 3-11 $15 accompanied by an adult member. Dealers: $50 deposit per table (limit 4, final table cost TBA), booths $250 (limit 1, deposit $100); write the con "Attn: Steve Francis" for info. Info: ConFederation, Suite 1986, 3277 Roswell Road, Atlanta, GA 30305. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Jul 86 0947-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #208 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 28 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 208 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Lewis & Erotic SF & Footfall & Celtic Myths (2 msgs), Television - Star Trek (4 msgs) & Max Headroom Miscellaneous - Battle Language ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 July 1986, 09:31:47 EDT From: "BRENT T. HAILPERN" <BTH@ibm.com> Subject: Has this been done? (very mild spoiler) > Each chapter of the novel is titled and represented by one of the > Tarot trumps, and the major themes of that chapter have to do with > the meaning of the card. It will focus on an interpretation of the > Trump sequence as stages of existence in a path to "enlightenment" > but will also use some of the more common interpretations of the > cards. Piers Anthony used this format in his Tarot trilogy. He used an expanded set of major arcana so that each chapter in the three books could carry one card as a title, with tie-in to the story. His Cluster series (started out as a trilogy and now has 5 (?) books) also refers to tarot a great deal. In fact there is one vision in the Tarot series (towards the end of the last book) about the future of Tarot that involves a alien Tarot user. That alien Tarot user is the protagonist of the third (I think) Cluster book and he has the mirror image vision. There has been a lot of discussion about Anthony in the digest. My 2 cents is that there are a some gems in his works ("On a Pale Horse", the first three Xanth stories, parts of "Macroscope", and the Split Infinity series). But you cannot assume that just because you find his name on a book, it will be good. Unfortunately this same statement is becoming true about my original SF idols such as Heinlein and Asimov. Of course, this is all my own opinion... Brent Hailpern IBM T. J. Watson Research Center BITnet: bth at yktvmh ARPAnet: bth@ibm.com ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 86 03:44:58 GMT From: starfire!ddb@caip.rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet) Subject: Re: Piers Anthony > One gains a somewhat more sympathetic view of Anthony from the > notes A matter of opinion, I think. Several people seem to have completely given up on him after reading those same notes. I know they made me feel LESS sympathetic -- back when I thought he was doing the best he could I was more willing to forgive him. > I also think that a uniformly negative view of Anthony's writing > is unjustified. He has a tendency to beat stories into the ground > with sequel after mind-deadening sequel; but the original stories > are often quite good. I agree here. Also, some of his early complete series were pretty good. I think highly of the Battle Circle novels, and of Orn, Omnivore and Ox (Though especially Orn. Hmmmm.). And I liked the first Cluster trilogy. The great splash book that made all the excitement was Macroscope, which I liked a lot at the time (haven't read recently, not sure how it would stand up for me. I remember it as possibly more topical in theme than most of the others). David Dyer-Bennet Usenet: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb Fido: sysop of fido 14/341, (612) 721-8967 Telephone: (612) 721-8800 USmail: 4242 Minnehaha Ave S Mpls, MN 55406 ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 86 16:37:15 GMT From: starfire!brust@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust) Subject: Re: "Great" literature This discussion is good place to throw in a general recommendation: I've just finished C. S. Lewis's AN EXPERIMENT IN CRITICISM. As with most of Lewis's work, I don't agree with everything, but he writes very well, and, as they say, gives one to think. I'll leave the summeries to someone else. For now, I just want to mention this book as an excellent discussion of (among other things) how one reads, and how one determines a "great" book, or one with lasting merit. skzb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1986 12:11 EDT From: Marty Walsh <MJWCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> Subject: Erotic SF and _Dream Games_ Back in June I posted a request for erotic SF favorites. I have begun compiling the list that hopefully more people will add to as time goes by. (Hint hint hint...) I had hoped to begin the list with one of my favorites, but as I mentioned in my original posting, my copy of it had been lent out and as such I couldn't remember the authors name. Well, much to my surprise, my copy appeared on my desk this morning! I can now provide the authors name and also, much to my embarrassment, the correct title of the book! It's _DREAM GAMES_, not _Mind Games_ as I had originally posted!! (I was kinda close!) The author is Karl Hansen, (At least I was correct about him being the author of _WAR GAMES_!). By the way, someone pointed out to me that the subject of sf-erotica was covered in the digest about a year ago. Unfortunatly, I do not have access to last years digest. Could someone that does please check and send me a list from that discussion? Thanks Marty Walsh ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 86 22:14:14 GMT From: starfire!brust@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust) Subject: Re: FOOTFALL by Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle (mild spoiler) > I have noticed that a lot of people speak of "identifying with > a character" or similar phrases. > > Why is that necessary to enjoy the work? Is it not possible to > take pleasure from the author's command of the language, of the > inventive I would think that a good book ought to allow itself to be enjoyed in several ways. The more the better. One ought to write well enough to allow someone to enjoy the prose, and one ought to plot well, and one's characters should be strong enough to be interesting in and of themselves. Where's the contradiction? There are people who need to be able to identify with a character to enjoy the book, and I don't see what's wrong with that. Others want enough depth to give their minds something to play with. It's the writer's job to provide as much of all of these as possible. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 86 12:21:35 GMT From: bunkerb!mary@caip.rutgers.edu (Mary Shurtleff) Subject: Re: Celtic myth references chelsea@dartvax.UUCP (Karen Christenson) writes: >cjn@calmasd.UUCP (Cheryl Nemeth) writes: >>Do you have any more information about these myths (titles, books >>I can find them in, rumors to pointers to references...)? > >There's the Mabinogion, which is a collection of Celtic myths. >There's also a series of five juveniles (one won the Newberry) by >Susan Cooper which have several references to Celtic myths. Evangaline Walton has written a set of four books based on the Mabinogion. I don't recall the titles exactly but I think they are: Prince of Annwn, The Song of Rhiannon, The Children of Llyr, and The Island of the Mighty. Lloyd Alexander has also used elements of Celtic mythology in his Prydain series, the last of which won the Newberry award. I highly recommend both sets of books. Mary Shurtleff ...decvax!bunker!bunkerb!mary ....ittatc!bunker!bunkerb!mary ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 86 22:19:48 GMT From: abbott@dean.BERKELEY.EDU (+Mark &) Subject: Re: Celtic myth references daver@sci.UUCP writes: >I thought the Malbonigion (sp) was Welsh myths. The Irish myths >are supposed to be closer to the original celtic mythos (at least, >that's what I heard. Does anyone know for certain?). Yes, the Irish tales and legends are probably "truer" to their Celtic origins if only because they were probably recorded earlier. All the Irish and Welsh tales were written down in Christian times so all of course have some influence from the Christian scribes. The Irish tales, however, having been transcribed earlier, are assumed to be closer to their origins. Nevertheless, the Mabinogi and associated tales are truly "Celtic". They may have a film of Christianity superimposed on them but the original Celtic elements and their mythic qualities are quite intact. If you're interested in reading Irish and Welsh tales and about them I would recommend: _The Mabinogi_, translated by Patrick Ford. Ford's translation is usually held to be the best. Several years ago I took a class where we translated portions of the Mabinogi (from the Medieval Welsh) every day as our homework. Ford's translation follows the Welsh exactingly, maintains its flavor, and yet is readable. This also includes several other folktales which are usually grouped with the Mabinogi. One of these, Culwch and Olwen, is a charming Arthurian tale. Keep in mind that Arthur is a British, ie Celtic, hero. The tales most of us know came into English through the Welsh immigrants who founded Brittany. Their folklore about Arthur became the later French Medieval Romances. Evangeline Walton's retelling of the Mabinogi is also very good. She includes much background and cultural information which makes the entire thing much more comprehensible. The original was for an audience which already knew the tales and, obviously, knew the culture. Using other sources, Walton, has added what is needed to make the stories flow. These are definitely worth reading on their own merit, independent of any interest you might have in things Celtic. About the Irish tales I know less. Many are available in Penguin translations and those that I have read are quite fun. I have no idea if the translations are any good. For scholarly information and general background on the Irish tales try _Gods and Heroes of the Ancient Celts_ by Marie-Louise Sjostedt (exact title and spelling of the author's name may be off, I don't have it here with me.) For a fictionalized retelling of the _Tain Bo Cualnge_ (The Cattle Raid of Cualnge, again the spelling may be off) try _Tain_, by Gregory Frost, recently in paperback. It's a lot of fun and maintains the feel of the translations I've read for what that's worth. Mark Abbott ucbdean@abbott ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 86 08:41:01 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Star Trek characters In DC's STAR TREK series, the editors have been running letters on the desirablility of having new blood in Trek. One of the letters said,"Yes, TREK can survive without new blood. But should it?" Sooner or later, friends, we are going to lose Doohan, Shatner, Nimoy, or one of the others, and if we don't have new people to bring in, sooner or later we won't have any cast left! Several of the novels have done this...When Spock and Scotty disappeared in BLACK FIRE, much of the section there dealt with how the stars reacted to their replacements. THE FINAL REFLECTION had a story that was set without recogniz- able people, except for brief cameos of Spock at 7 and McCoy in diapers. I think that Star Trek can survive, if the quality is maintained as in TFR. I must admit, though, they would have to do an excellennt job to get me into NewTrekdom. Well, that's all for now. THE ADVENTURE CONTINUES! st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 86 11:35:49 -0400 From: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU> To: Dave Bloom <dave%andromeda.red.rutgers.edu@Dewey.UDEL.EDU> Cc: Wahl.ES@xerox.COM Subject: Re: Star Trek : TMP >I *hated* STTMP for a number of reasons, but one of the biggies was >because it was used as a vehicle for the introduction of new >characters central to the plot. [...] The new characters were central to the plot of STTMP, and there may have been problems with them, but... STTMP was used as a vehicle for getting the *old* characters reestablished in their *old* roles. The "new" characters were "killed off" by the end of the movie. ST II was where things started changing... Spock dies, one new crewmember (Saavik) and one potential continuing character (David) are established, and so on (into ST III). ST II completely ignored what was accomplished in ST:TMP. Now we have a destroyed Enterprise and an absurd reincarnation of Spock, and are about to make a trip back to 1986 (gee!). Is that what we really want Star Trek to be? Frank Hollander ARPA: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU CSNET: hollande%udel-dewey@csnet-relay UUCP: ...!harvard!hollande@dewey.udel. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 86 09:03 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Star Trek new characters To: Frank Hollander <hollande@DEWEY.UDEL.EDU> Cc: Dave Bloom <dave%andromeda.red.rutgers.edu@DEWEY.UDEL.EDU> I'm really surprised to hear all this sentiment about the old ST characters being the center of "ST." To me, ST is so much more than the sum of Kirk, Spock, McCoy, etc. (If any one thing is the center, it's the Enterprise, which is why I felt so cheated when they destroyed it, but that's another story. And the Enterprise, STILL isn't the center, just closer to it.) It's the universe it's set in, the optimism, the vehicle for good space opera. I think that characters could come and go, as they did in MASH, and only make the series stronger. I WANT to see a new Star Trek with the same setting, background, the same "to boldly go" theme, but with new people. Let's have another strong Captain, another fascinating alien, some new personality types. Saavik was a great addition, as far as she went. We need more new people like her. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 86 12:36:13 GMT From: riccb!rjnoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Roger J. Noe) Subject: Re: Re: Star Trek new TV series [Star Trek I] Dave Bloom writes: > I *hated* STTMP for a number of reasons, but one of the biggies > was because it was used as a vehicle for the introduction of new > characters central to the plot. After all those years I wanted see > Kirk & Crew ... > > I think the characters, regardless of their age, still make the > old magic happen.... That's why TWOK was so good. Which is precisely why I've never heard anyone say that the Special Longer Edition of STTMP one can get on videotape is a bad movie or that they didn't like it. The version of STTMP that reached theaters back in December, 1979 was a very poor edit of an otherwise good movie. They cut out very much of the Kirk/Spock/McCoy interaction and washed out their characterizations in the process. If you haven't seen the Special Longer Edition, then you haven't seen the real "Star Trek: The Motion Picture". Roger Noe ihnp4!riccb!rjnoe ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 86 10:02:38 GMT From: well!ltf@caip.rutgers.edu (Lance T Franklin) Subject: Re: Good old Max again From: JJL8733%RITVAXC.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA >Oh by the way folks. That so called M-M-M-Max Box is called a >crosshatch generator. Anyone know what that means? I imagine it's referring to the patterns generated behind Max's head. However I think the box was also called a frame buffer, which makes more sense than calling it a crosshatch generator, which is a TV Repairman-type alignment instrument (if I'm not mistaken) which requires about 15 dollars worth of circuitry to make. By the way, I saw an interview with the actor who plays Max Headroom on the All-night news (NightWatch) and he definitely spilled the beans, admitting that he spends about 4 hours in makeup for a Max Headroom taping session. So that's it, friends...it's NOT computer-generated! Lance {ptsfa,hplabs,dual,lll-crg,glacier}!well.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 86 21:12:47 GMT From: usc-oberon!cochran@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Cochran) Subject: Re: Battle Language -- DUNE invention? > One topic which has been explored by a number of authors is the > idea of the Klingons having a Battle Language which is used > during combat. It was published much later (1971) but let us not forget Cletus Graeme's twenty-volume work on tactics and strategical considerations in Gordon R. Dickson's "Tactics of Mistake" part of which covers the reorganization of the command structure and implements a both a language and a philosophy for a battle team. Steve Cochran USC-ISG ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Jul 86 1019-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #209 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 28 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 209 Today's Topics: Books - Biggle & McCollum & Palmer & Myth Stories & The Keep, Films - Dr. Phibes & Films on Video Tape & Books into Films (2 msgs), Television - Max Headroom & Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Has this Been Done? & Meeting at Worldcon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Jul 86 17:15:01 edt From: Antonio Leal <abl@ohm.ECE.CMU.EDU> Subject: Lloyd Biggle Jr. I would like to remind sf-lovers of an almost forgotten writer: Lloyd Biggle Jr. I just picked up his "Silence is Deadly" from my friendly neighborhood library; I am halfway through it, and fascinated by how he took one premise (a planet full of deaf creatures) and toughtfully extrapolated the consequences for the whole society. For me, this is what separates the real SF writer from the hack who just takes a TV-grade soap opera and adds SF/fantasy props in order to sell. Lloyd Biggle also has a good vocabulary, and keeps the plot running: in this case, the Department of Uncertified Worlds has lost ten agents in a previously untroubled backward planet, with medieval technology and no spoken language. As far as I know, Lloyd Biggle wrote at least two other books. I'm sorry I can't be precise about the titles, but I read them years ago (and in a translated edition, to boot). One was called something like "The Still, Small Voice of Trumpets" (an agent is allowed to introduce one, and strictly one, technological innovation to bring about progress in a feudal world). The other, on a much hazier remembrance, is "The War of Ghosts" (??), where you have an account of battles with an human-like race, whose soldiers can teleport themselves. I would appreciate corrections on this. Anyway, I recomend the author to you. Dig his books out of the library. Suggest a new printing to your friend at a publishing house. It's much better than the average of what they're putting in the bookstores. Tony (abl@ohm.ece.cmu.edu) P.S. Just looked at the cover flap (anyone ever reads those?). Is says that three other books by LBj use the same protagonist: "This Darkening Universe", "Watchers of the Dark" and "All the Colors of Darkness". This last one may be what I called "War of the Ghosts" (translated title, you know :-). The blurb also mentions "numerous short stories" (known collections, anyone?). "Silence" is (c) 1977, and is based on a 1957 short-story printed in "If". ------------------------------ From: <mooremj@eglin-vax> Subject: McCollum and sequels > Does anyone know whether Michael McCollum is planning a sequel to > his "Life Probe" series (LIFE PROBE and PROCYON'S PROMISE)? McCollum is a frustrating author to like (at least for me) because he writes great books which beg for sequels, and then goes off and writes another great book, completely unrelated, which also begs for a sequel, etc. Before the "Life Probe" books, he wrote several related stories which were unified into the book "A Greater Infinity"...I've been waiting for a sequel to this one for years. And the new book, "Antares Dawn", has *got* to have a sequel -- to say more would be a spoiler. Maybe McCollum will be at Worldcon and I can ask him about this. Speaking of Worldcon, are there any plans for an SFL party there? Marty Moore mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 86 21:51:16 cdt From: ops@ncsc.ARPA (Tharp) Subject: David R. Palmer's _Emergence_ The person who recommended _Emergence_ to me said it was written in a new style he thought I would really enjoy. Clipped sentences. Straight forward. First person. Mutant adolescent heroine. Bright. No nonsense. One word. Boring. Jessie Tharp ops@ncsc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 86 03:47:57 MDT From: donn@utah-cs.ARPA (Donn Seeley) Subject: Re mythological stories (May, Myers) Does anyone else feel the distaste I do for stories which (through the artifice of time travel or something equally unlikely) use modern characters to 'explain' a myth? I always get the sense that the author is telling a shaggy dog story of the very shaggiest kind. A variation on this plot grabs a mythological character and brings them to modern times, where they give the 'real story' behind the myth. This utterly destroys the charm of a myth. Robert Silverberg, whose work I often admire, has been playing around with Gilgamesh recently, for example featuring him as a character in a story for the 'Writers (sp?) in Hell' series. I couldn't finish the story and didn't feel I was missing anything. I couldn't hear so much as a whisper of the Sumerian Gilgamesh... The original, even in translation, puts imitations to shame. I far prefer stories which leave the magic of a myth intact, and especially those which create new myths. The master of this is of course R A Lafferty. (And no, I won't tell you what R A stands for!) Check out 'Magazine Section' in the latest YEAR'S BEST SF; these myths are so real that I expect to see them featured in Sunday supplements any week now, or perhaps as footnote in J H Brunvand's next opus about modern folklore. I was a bit hesitant to try Robert Holdstock's MYTHAGO WOOD but when I finally got around to reading it I discovered that it doesn't 'explain' myths but does something far more sophisticated -- read the book and find out, it's lots of fun. Not brave enough for Silverlock (Goldilocks? never mind) or even Pliocene exiles (does Old Irish have a word for Pliocene?), Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 86 20:57:42 cdt From: ops@ncsc.ARPA (Tharp) Subject: _Highlander_ and _The_Keep_ Has anyone out there noticed a resemblence in the premise of the movie _Highlander_ to that of the movie and book _The_Keep_? I speak of the eternal enemies, good and evil, doomed to follow each other through eternity. I saw the tail end of the movie on HBO and was intrigued enough to pick up a used copy of the book. I found it in the horror section, but after reading it I thought it could have as easily been classed as science fiction or fantasy. IS THIS WHERE I PUT THE SPOILER WARNING BECAUSE I'M GOING TO TALK ABOUT A BOOK? During WWII the Nazis move into an ancient stronghold guarding a mountain pass in some eastern European country, ignoring the dire warnings of the villagers. The soldiers explore the Keep and disturb something. Soon the soldiers begin to die horribly. The commander does some research and sends for the only people who might know what is going on, a Jewish scholar and his daughter (who, incidentally have no idea what is going on). They move into the Keep and the scholar contacts the "something", an ancient entity who has been imprisoned in the Keep. He heals the scholar of a crippling disease in return for the scholar's aid in breaking free of the Keep. Enter the mysterious stranger, who has reluctantly crossed the continent during a war in response to the entity's awakening. He and the scholar's daughter interact. He confronts the entity. Eons ago, before Atlantis sank, a highly advanced civilization existed. Some of it was good, some of it not so good. The good and the not so good fought it out, almost destroying the earth and forming the basis for most of the mythology of the less developed co-habitants of earth (our ancestors). The mysterious stranger (the good) and the entity (the not so good) fought each other in various guises for thousands of years. Finally the mysterious stranger defeated the entity some time around the reign of Vlad the Impaler (guess who he really was). Afraid of what would happen if he destroyed the entity, the mysterious stranger imprisoned his ancient enemy in the Keep and took off. Now, the entity is loose and the final battle must be fought. (I sound like a cover blurb!) Actually I enjoyed the book and have watched the movie several times. This theme is familiar to fantasy readers, and had the Nazis been evil conquerors out of the West, and the scholar and his daughter been a a wizard and his daughter, and the mysterious stranger rode a horse instead of a motor cycle, we would have had a fantasy novel instead of a horror story. Jessie Tharp ops@ncsc ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 86 18:18:52 GMT From: masscomp!mcguest@caip.rutgers.edu (net'ing from inside) Subject: cut -d 1-14,39- Has anyone ever seen a movie called 'Dr. Phibes' ? What was it about? I only saw < 3 minutes of it and am especially interested in what the organ playing was all about... Bill Colic ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jul 86 00:23:13 GMT From: bnrmtv!perkins@caip.rutgers.edu (Henry Perkins) Subject: Re: request for movies in video stores From: wood%genral.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (CELESTE) > Response to request for possible SF movies to get in video. All of these are old enough to be on video, some in the public domain: Andromeda Strain Day of the Triffids The Day the Earth Stood Still Fantastic Voyage Forbidden Planet Invasion of the Body Snatchers (both versions) THX 1138 Henry Perkins {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!perkins ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jul 1986 08:18-PDT Subject: Books into movies list From: WILBUR@OFFICE-2.ARPA "I, Martha Adams" by Pauline Glen Winslow. America has become complacent & surrenders to the Russians after they destroy certain military bases. One woman fights back. This book has good ingredients for a movie - pyrotechnics, politics, bad guys beating upon good guys, suspense, and sex. Oh, yes, let us not forget a strong female lead. Faye (Wilbur@Office-2) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 86 10:17:08 PDT From: chuq@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: books into films Nobody has mentioned the PERFECT book for a Hollywood SF special effects bonanza. I'd love to see them do Lord of Light by Zelazny. chuq ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1986 22:00 EDT From: Brent C J Britton <Brent%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> Subject: Max Headroom Trivia... The actor who played Edison Carter in "Max Headroom" is Matt Frewer. Given that Max Headroom as we see him is actually sort of like the "Great and Powerfull Oz" as initially seen by Dorothy and company, does anyone know if Matt Frewer is in fact "the man behind the curtain"? It seems to me that he is, but I'm not completely sure. Remember the little ditty about the "Crimson Permanent Assurance" that appeared before Monty Python's "The Meaning of Life" about the accountants that attacked the Very Big Corporation of America? Remember the last executive standing who threw down his papers, said "Shit!", and jumped out the window? That was Matt Frewer. The thing into which Edison Carter crashed was one of those automatic gates which are found at the exits to parking garages. He was being tracked by his controller (who was trying to keep the gate open) and by Bryce (who was trying to close it). Bryce, hacking from his bathtub, won, and Edison crashed into the gate which read "MAX HEADROOM 2.3m" (not 6 feet). Later, when the Cross Hatch Generator in which Edison had been enclosed turned up at "Big Time Television" it displayed a picture of the garage gate, but the people at Big Time figured it was a good estimate of Max's TV ratings: Max Headroom, 2.3 million. When Dave Letterman asked Max where he got the name Max Headroom, Max said that he was driving down the road in his (swagger) limo, and someone shouted "Hey, there's Max Headroom!" and it kinda stuck. Brent Britton ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1986 08:54 EDT From: Andrew T. Robinson <ANDY%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> Subject: New Star Trek Being an old Star Trek affectionado, I find myself with some lingering reservations about whether an attempt at reincarnation of the series with new cast members will match up to the original. However, there are precedents that would seem to indicate that this is not only possible but very plausible... Take "Dr. Who..." The creators of Doc Who pulled a major coup with the idea of "regeneration..." When one actor gets tired of playing the part, he dies/regenerates and voila, we have a new doctor without much adieu. With ST, there's no reason to get so fancy of course. It is certainly believable that our beloved Cap'n Kirk and company have gone to the bone yards after a couple of decades of faithful service, and a newer, younger crew has taken their place. The thing I worry about is the removal of reference points... People who have been exposed to "Classic Trek" (like Classic Coke) tend to have an almost fanatical devotion to it. The new series will almost have to remove most of the reference points that would help all of us older folks (coff) tie down the whole bit. The ENTERPRISE is long since obselete, replaced probably by the incredibly ugly EXCELSIOR-class starship. The interiors of the ships have totally changed (going from simple and elegant to bulky and complex). With the original crew gone too, it may be hard to think of the new show as STAR TREK. Perhaps they should come up with a new and different name? Then again (returning to my original example of Doc Who), I started watching Dr. Who during the Tom Baker series... when I found out that he was going away, I began to ask "Can there be Dr. Who after Tom Baker?" As it turns out there was, and I learned to like Peter Davison and Colin Baker in turn. The difference here is of course that many of the reference points in Dr. Who have been preserved throughout the series, virtually intact. If they can do that with the new ST series, it may end up being quite watchable. Andy ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 86 03:11:53 GMT From: unc!oliver@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Oliver) Subject: Re: Has this been done? The tarot motif has been done bunches and bunches. Lets see..... I think it was Piers Anthony who had a planet based on Tarot hallucinations. There is another recent novel called, I think, the something of Pentacles which has each chapter related to a card. I frankly can't remember the author (it was Barbara something...) or much of the plot -- I didn't finish the book. There are two that do come to mind as being pretty good. The first is by Italo Calvino and is called The Castle of Crossed Destinies. In this work, Calvino puts stories together from spreads. He does a pretty good job. The copy I have is in paperback by Harcourt Brace and Jovanovich and has Strength and the Queen of Swords of the Visconti deck on the cover. I don't go along with all of his interpretations, but I doubt if any two cartomancers agree on readings. The second is by Charles Williams (of Inklings fame) called The Greater Trumps. This is in paperback by Wm. Eerdmans Co. It is tremendous if you like that darkish pre-WW II British fiction -- it reminds me a little of Iris Murdoch's stuff. In any case, I found this book pretty powerful. Bill Oliver ------------------------------ Date: 25 JUL 86 17:34-CDT From: HIGGINS%FNALCDF.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA Subject: General Technics meeting at Confederation in Atlanta GENERAL TECHNICS MEETING The pseudo-annual meeting of General Technics, the organization for science fiction fans with an interest in do-it-yourself technology, will be held Friday morning, 29 August 1986, at (oof) 10 AM, Constellation in Atlanta. Check your program when you get to the con to find the exact location. Non-members are more than welcome. We may confidently expect that discussion topics will include bringing science and technology to your local convention, blimps, the status of our fanzine *PyroTechnics*, the status of Apa-Tech, our amateur press association, The Good Old Days, and miscellaneous techietalk. Sorry, kids, I tried to get a more convenient time, but the Worldcon has limited space and time. Let's meet, shoot the breeze for a while, then maybe go out for lunch (brunch?). GT will certainly hold a party some evening of the convention, too, so watch for announcements. Bill Higgins HIGGINS@FNALB.BITNET ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Jul 86 1215-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #210 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 29 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 210 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Jul 86 12:08:54 GMT From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: Music from Aliens 'Course, you can harly call it stealing when James Horner re-uses some fluorishes from STAR TREK II. After all, he wrote the music for that film, too. Cheers, Robert J. Sawyer in toronto c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 86 16:18:23 GMT From: amdahl!jon@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*) srt@ucla-cs.ARPA (Scott Turner) writes: >Why doesn't Ripley load her guns before she leaves the landing craft? She was in a BIG hurry; a bit of time was saved by loading them on the way down. >Why doesn't she carry an extra clip or two for the gun? How about >a handgun? She was also pretty blithe about using the gun and the >hand grenades underneath the "thermal converters" - something she'd >warned others against earlier - which was presumably more dangerous >now that the plant was about to blow sky-high. But the damage had already been done. Jon Leech (...seismo!amdahl!jon || jon@csvax.caltech.edu) UTS Products / Amdahl Corporation ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 86 19:46:29 GMT From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott) Subject: Re: Music from Aliens okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU writes: > One thing that I hated was that James Horner STOLE music from many > major sci-fi movies. Did people notice stuff from 2001, Star > Wars, ST:The Motion Sickness, and STII: The Wrath of the Children > of the Corn? And they didn't even credit the music! Actually I was rather pleased to hear the Gayenne Ballet Suite during the title and credit sequences (it was used in 2001 to convey the idea of 18+ months of routine as Discovery journeyed to Jupiter.) surely this must have been some form of tribute to the all-time greatest of sf movies. (in fact the music was doctored very slightly, possibly beyond the limits of straight "rearrangement"). Tim Abbott ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 86 21:35:16 GMT From: bnrmtv!zarifes@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes) Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE) > I thought there were several large logical holes in Aliens. Well...maybe not. > 1) TIME - The radio communications from the colony stop. This must > have happened when all the colonists got "slimed". So Ripley and > crew hop in a ship and go into DEEP SLEEP to get there. This means > it must take several YEARS to get there. But when they get there, > some of the slimed colonists The freezing might have had to be done for other reasons. Also, Ripley froze herself for a 6 week trip in _Alien_. She says that she will reach the frontier in 6 weeks and "with luck" will be picked up. > In Alien, the "gestation" period of the creature in a human body > is a matter of days, maybe weeks. BUT NOT YEARS !! The creatures > also There was only one colonist that was definitely "alive". She must have been hiding out like Newt was and she was very recently captured. > 2) PLOT SLIP-UP - The colonists haven't seen or heard anything > about creatures. But when Ripley shows up, they have a full-blown > research project going on the Alien biology. They even have > samples in jars of live critters (which must have stayed alive for > YEARS, see above). So they have been studying them for some Maybe not YEARS, see above. > time, WITHOUT TELLING EARTH ?? A Watergate-style coverup by the > company ?? Obviously the colonists put up a big struggle (this was even stated in the dialog). They built baracades and even killed several aliens. They would be sure to be studying the enemy during the battle AND this battle could have been going on for some time. It may not have been over for very long. > 3) Strategy slip-up - Would you take EVERYONE off your spaceship > for a ground mission ?? Leaving your backup shuttle up there ? > Making replenishment of supplies a round-trip operation instead of > a one-way operation ?? Cap'n Kirk would never have approved. > > 4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space > ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them, > they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only > glimmer of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an > elevator. In _Alien_ the space ship was INFESTED by the aliens. It was yet another alien life form that built and piloted the ship. These guys were BIG too. Remember the size of the dead gunner who had his chest "exploded from the inside"? {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes Ken Zarifes ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 86 15:09:09 GMT From: thome@rochester.ARPA (Mike Thome) Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE) brucec@tekgen.UUCP (Bruce Cheney) writes: >1) TIME - The radio communications from the colony stop. As is made clear from Alien, it does NOT take years to get from system to system - If you remember, the crew of the Nostromo (this is after returning from the planet with the Alien) is very unhappy when they figure out that it'll take MONTHS to get back to earth... because they wasted so much fuel and sustained damage visiting the planet. Now - Aliens takes place 57 years in the future with an undamaged _military_ ship with the latest equipment... sounds more like the month or so implied in Aliens to me. >2) PLOT SLIP-UP-The colonists haven't seen or heard anything about >creatures. But when Ripley shows up, they have a full-blown >research project... I've heard that the novelization is *explicit* about this point... but the movie gives plenty of information, too... When Burke (is this his name - the Company guy along for the ride) hears Ripley's story, he instructs the colonists to check out the alien space ship (I think that some mention of the company weapons division is made at this point too) - this is what gets Ripley so mad at him - eventually leading to her and Newt getting locked in the lab with a couple of stage 1 aliens. >3) Strategy slip-up - Would you take EVERYONE off your spaceship >for a ground mission ?? Leaving your backup shuttle up there ? >Making replenishment of supplies a round-trip operation instead of >a one-way operation ?? Cap'n Kirk would never have approved. Agreed - I was very suprised when it was revealed that the shuttle was parked on the ground (with the door left open) after so much care at the time of the first "battle drop" - touching down just long enough to drop off the ground transport, then zipping away... on the other hand, we all know how incompetant the guy in charge was... BTW, replenishment of supplies is a round trip in any case, unless you leave the transport on the ground. >4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space >ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them, >they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only glimmer >of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an elevator. Two points: 1) Although the pilot of the alien ship wasn't human, he/she/it certainly wasn't one of "our" aliens - it didn't look anything like any of the 5 kind of Alien forms we've seen, and it died because of the gaping hole in it's chest - as pointed out in ALIENS, they don't fight among themselves. 2) even if they HAD been the owners of the ship, unless they had some sort of racial memory, they wouldn't have any education at all - let alone technology. >There are others, but these seem the biggest to me. But don't get >me wrong, it's a great movie. I haven't seen any GAPING holes... only a few weak spots, like the error in stragety above... What I find hard to believe is how much these creatures grow in such a short time - the original alien grew from the size of a chicken to larger than human in under 24 hours... and the bulk of organic material produced by the creatures in Aliens seems excessive - I suppose the explanation is human food supplies and INorganic material (Aliens use some silicon, too). Anyway, I sure enjoyed the movie(s), even more so, because they were reasonably believable... Mike thome@rochester.arpa ...!allegra!rochester!thome ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 86 01:14:05 GMT From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*) Sorry, I just can't resist any more. Nitpickers ought to think thrice before posting their net.nits. srt@ucla-cs.ARPA (Scott Turner) writes: >Just a couple of errors I noticed in ALIENS: >What kind of Marines leave the ramp to a landing vehicle down in >hostile territory? Marines who intend to retreat quickly into the vehicle? Marines with an inexperienced commanding officer? >Hicks says the relief mission will show up in 17 days. So why use >cold sleep to make the trip? Because the hyperspace is an unpleasant place and makes the humans sick unless they are cold-slept. This is an extremely common limitation to write into a hyperspace. >The android said the platform was too weak to support the landing >craft so he had to circle it around. But the landing craft was >shown hovering. Why not just hover off the platform? Because the hover would put nearly as much effective mass on the platform? Depends on the drive mechanism. Jets or rockets would certainly stress the platform. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 86 10:27 PDT From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Aliens discussion & medium spoilers First of all I would like to apologize to Vasquez for getting her name wrong. I called her Hernandez, which was way off base. I'm probably still spelling it wrong, but what else can I do? In case you are wondering who Vasquez is, you should go and see the movie Aliens. She is one of the marines recruited to kick some Alien butt. The point of this letter is to discuss the logistics of the Alien physiognomy and to come up with a feasible world view for this creature in it's home environment. If you have seen neither Alien or Aliens, then you will probably be spoiled by some references that I may cite herein. The Alien is a creature of enormous tenacity. It seems to be able to live anywhere despite lack of "breathable" atmosphere, although it seemed disturbed by one of the gases Ripley filled the cabin of her escape vessel with in the first movie. Does anyone know what gas this was? At worst it just made the creature mad though. Not even the cold vacuum of space stopped the creature, although a decent dose of rocket fire did put it in it's place. In Aliens they used 10mm armor piercing explosive shells and grenades with a great deal of success, but then we didn't really expect the Aliens to be colony creatures with control over each individual cell (like John Carpenter's Thing), did we? When an Alien is killed, it is truly dead, thank the Maker. The Aliens are quickly growing creatures. They are born from an egg as a thing that resembles a hand with a tail. It's organs are in the "palm" and it attempts to clutch the face of any organism that happens to be nearby. In a good environment, the grown Aliens cocoon helpless creatures up within leaping range of the eggs (or place eggs within range of webbed up creatures). This cocoon is made from some sort of excreted resin. We never really learn what excretes the resin, although I think we can assume (if we take A.D. Foster's novelization of Alien into account) that the full grown Alien is capable of excreting this resin, although I wonder where he gets enough food to produce a sufficient mass to hold a human sized creature since he does not appear to eat his victims. At any rate, it sends a piece of itself (another egg? born again monsters?) into the digestive tract of the host and then the hand creature dies. The creature has effectively shed it's original skin and is growing a new one inside the host body. The host body is accordingly famished and eats and eats, but we can be sure that he is not getting any of the nourishment. All of it goes to the creature growing inside of him. This creature grows increadibly quickly too. Within a period of hours it can be ready to emerge, although it may take longer in a more benign environment. When it is ready to emerge, it uses it's nasty sharp pointy teeth to chew it's way to the outside world. Given time, it probably devours most of the yummy parts of the host, otherwise it runs, er, slithers like hell for a nice hiding spot when it can complete phase two of the transformation. This snake like creature that is born by a messy version of a cesarean quickly grows into the adult Alien that we are familiar with, ditching it's skin along the way much like a terrestrial reptile. Where it gets the food to account for the mass of this next transformation is beyond me. This transformation places the creature in the human being size category and makes him obnoxiously nasty. In addition to the long sharp pointy teeth, the creature also has long sharp pointy fingers, toes, and a tail. We may assume that this form is the stable form that the Aliens will remain in until they die. Some may be fertile, while some may be sterile, in a manner similar to some terrestrial insects, because we do learn that the Aliens operate in a matriarchal queen system. Someone must impregnate the queen, and we must assume, from a lack of contrary evidence, that the "normal" adult Aliens take this role. After getting a look at the queen, I must say that I suspect her of eating her mates. It just seems to be something she would do. Other random notes about Aliens; they have highly corrosive blood (does something eat them?); they radiate no heat (invisible under IR) despite having obvious heat radiating fins on their backs; they have a large brain cavity where Lord-only-knows what is present. The Aliens are also pretty smart. They know how to find ways of moving about undetected, and they know when to avoid contact. They are sneaky about hiding and they can operate simple machinery, like sliding doors and elevators. They seem to communicate although they use no system of language like we do. If anything, their language is a system of screeches and hisses, but I doubt that that is how they communicate. Instead, I theorize that they are telepathic, or even that the queen is telepathic and controlling all the regular Aliens. This would account for their ability to surround their prey so easily and for their organized tactics. Also, the queen seemed to control her eggs and guards with but a glance. In Aliens, the creatures all avoid the Marines until they kill an emerging hatchling, then the Aliens all come out to play. This presents a summary of what we know about Aliens, if you have anything to add, please do. This is all designed to promote speculation. I have not even gotten to a possible description of the Alien's homeworld. It would not be a nice place to be, I am quite sure. There has to be something there that the Alien's are afraid of, otherwise why would they need that nasty protective blood, or that mean disposition? Perhaps they have clans, or hives, and fight amongst themselves? Ideas anyone? Jon pugh%ccv@lll-mfe.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24-JUL-1986 13:41 EDT From: Ronald A. Jarrell <JARRELLRA%VTMATH.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> Subject: Aliens: The New Beginning... :-) In Classic Alien they explain that it will take the Nostromo ten months to get home (towing the oil refinery!) through hyperspace. (Hyperspace is from the book..) Now, given that the Nostromo is a cargo tug, and was hauling a small city, one could imagine a military assult ship could get there a bit faster.. Especially since we've had 57 YEARS to improve technology! Ron ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Jul 86 1229-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #211 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 29 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 211 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (10 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Jul 86 20:43:49 GMT From: weitek!robert@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Hobbits, Beornings, et al. >>Thus, even if the Elves once knew where all these guys came from, >>the individuals with the knowledge passed over the sea, or got hit >>over the head with an Orc's club, and their knowledge wasn't >>preserved. And by the Third Age, the Elves weren't traveling much >>any more, so they were unlikely to re-discover anything. chris@maryland.UUCP writes: >On the contrary, the knowledge was passed down in song and story. >It is true that most of the High-elves were rather stationary then, >though according to our own legends, my ancestors were still >wandering about. Who, you may wonder, were those? Well, look at the Sylvan Elves in Laurelindorenan, then. In the Fellowship of the Ring, one of the Elves talks about the Grey Havens as if they were a rumor, not fact. If such basic facts as the continued existence of Cirdan at the Havens can be lost to the rank and file, it implies that lots of other information is getting lost, too. There are other references to lost lore in Tolkien's works -- lost knowledge from Beleriand and Hollin, lost knowledge caused by the last witness passing over the sea. Songs are nice, but an eyewitness is better. >In your translations, it is said that the last Elves left Middle- >earth in the Fourth Age. This statement is quite clear, succint, >unequivocal---and wrong. Someone seems to have forgotten us again! >There is one group of Elves seldom mentioned: the Avari. Perhaps >someday I shall tell our story. That the Noldor didn't write about the Avari is regrettable, I suppose, but then the Noldor always WERE self-absorbed. But they're the ones who wrote stuff down, so their story is the one that is remembered. Robert Plamondon UUCP: {turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 86 20:37:34 GMT From: blade!jcn@caip.rutgers.edu (Julio Cesar Navas) Subject: Re: Tolkien From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA > First, we get a message from Mr Dalton that states that the > author of LotR is not the final authority on the book he wrote. > And then, Mr Milne (who seems to be an authority, with a lot of > carefully thought out and well presented views on Middle Earth) > goes and agrees with him. NOW WAIT A MINUTE !!!!!!!! BRAVO !!!!!!!! That's the spirit !!!!!!! The author of a fantasy world should have the last word about the events, places, etc. therein. In fact, the author would be the only person who would have a complete knowledge of all the events, plottings, characters, places, etc. in his land. After all he thought it up! Let's have an example: Sauron after Morgoth's downfall. With Morgoth Bauglir in chains and his armies scattered or destroyed, Sauron, Melkor's second-in-command, comes to Eonwe, the leader of the forces of Aman, and feigns repentance. Eonwe tells him that he cannot pardon Sauron because they are of the same order. Therefore, Sauron has to go to Aman to recieve his pardon directly from the Valar. This Sauron doesn't do and instead flees east and hides. Tolkien hints (and specifically writes 'perhaps') that Sauron might have truly repented from fear of the power of the Lords of the West, but that Morgoth's bonds on his lieutenant were too strong and that Sauron loathed the sentence of service that surely awaited him, and so he turned back to evil. Tolkien wrote nothing concrete (perhaps this and that). Therefore, his readers would never really know why Sauron did what he did. Tolkien, however, would know. He is after all the one who created the situation in the first place and so would know the why 's and wherefore's for every character's actions. The character Sauron is not wishy-washy; he has definite goals and reasons for what he does. J.R.R. Tolkien, as the creator/controller of Sauron, would also know those reasons. Why didn't Tolkien include his reasons for Sauron's actions? No one knows why. Off hand, however, good guesses at his reasons might be: a. He couldn't simply blurt out the reasons in the middle of the story for fear that it would kill the aura of mystery that the event has. What's that ?!?!? What about an appendix like in UNFINISHED TALES? See b. b. The Silmarillion and its stories are written by elves in an elvish perspective. The elves would not, in any way, know the inner workings of Sauron's mind and therefore could not record it. This seems to be the best guess at Tolkien's reasons. The sad part of all this is that Tolkien is dead and therefore can't answer any questions we might have concerning Endor. Christopher Tolkien would only be able to help so far and could not possibly be expected to give the answer to a really deep question about Middle-Earth. After all, he also is relying on the writings of his father and does not and will not know the inner workings of his father's mind. Only J.R.R. would know what changes or additions he was going to make to Middle-Earth. What revisions did he have in mind? What plot twists was he going to incorporate? Did he have the city of Gondolin mapped out in his mind and just never had the time to write it down? Questions such as these will probably never be answered except in theory. That is the saddest part of all - and one which will never be remedied. Julio C. Navas ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 86 23:49:22 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Goldberry milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes: >Goldberry (and who might she be, hmmmm?) tells Frodo that for Tom >to master all his land "would indeed be a burden". If he were >Iluvatar, he would not only be the land's master, but its creator, >and mastery of it could scarcely be a burden. Well, if Goldberry is ``the River-daughter'', and we take *that* at face value, then either Osse or Uinen (or both; Ulmo is, however unlikely or she'd be the Sea-daughter) has been playing around... Brandon ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ncoast!tdi2!brandon (ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 86 19:11:47 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Magic in the LOTR From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK> >From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) >>I think that the relationship between capabilities and Intrinsic >>Nature in the magic of Middle Earth shows up here. Since magic >>flows from the soul, what can be done by any entity is determined >>by its inner nature. > >I don't think that this view of magic can be justified on the basis >of the LOTR. I don't even think you can justify a notion of soul >or of Intrinsic Nature. This is not to say it's entirely wrong, >but "soul" and "intrinsic nature" say too much. Moreover, you >can't, in my view, conclude anything from "magic flows from the >soul" since this whole notion of soul, let alone magic flowing from >it, is unfounded. "Soul" is an ill-defined notion in any case, as >is "inner nature". Except that the existence of an indestructable soul is quite well established in the LotR mythos. It is in fact quite clear that all thinking beings have some fundamental essence which continues to exist even after the body is killed. In fact I would say that 'soul' or 'spirit' in Tolkien mean essentially the same thing as 'inner nature', that is they refer to the essence of what makes each person an individual, the personality if you will. For evidence from within the mythos, try looking at the meanings of the names of the tengwar, or at the descriptions of what happens to Elves and Men after death. >Here is another approach. I already knew that Feanor was skillful, >proud, and inventive; I knew he could create things that others >could not, and that they probably wouldn't have though of in the >first place. How does it help my understanding to attribute these >things to a soul or Intrinsic Nature? That different people are >capable of different things seems an entirely commonplace >observation with no need for this theoretical apparatus. Actually I would say that this is just another way of saying the same thing! The differing capabilities of different people is the essence what I would call "inner nature". Why am I so much better than many people at seeing certain thing? Because deep down inside of me these things touch the very core of who I am as a person, and so I pay more attention to them. This is not really all that mystical, just a part of how people react to things. To put it differently, because of who he was Feanor was deeply moved by certain matters and so was inspired to create things of beauty and skill based on this inner vision or inspiration. Only someone else who shared his inner feelings and interests would be able to make the same things, but he was unique and noone else had these aspects to who they were. Sauron(and Morgoth) were more interested in power and dominion, and so saw all things from this perspective. Thus Sauron was unable to make such things as the palantiri and silmarilli because he could not see things the same way as Feanor. Sauron, on the other hand could make a truly awesome instrument of dominion like the One Ring, while Feanor would not even be able to concieve of such a thing. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 86 19:22:32 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Who was Tom Bombadil? From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> >I have difficulties with this. Firstly, though the Silmarillion >indicates that Valinor itself was not built for some time, I don't >recall the Valar or the Maiar actually living in Middle Earth >(excluding a couple of Valar who were virtually part of Middle >Earth). Secondly, though certain Maiar certainly liked to wander >in it, living there would have been difficult with the continual >havoc that Melkor wrought, trying to undo everything the other >Valar did. Reread the opening chapters of The Silmarillion! The original home of the Valar in Ea, during the time of the two Globes, was in fact in the area later known as Middle Earth. It was only after Morgoth showed his true colors and destroyed the Globes that Valinor was built and the Valar moved out of Middle Earth(for the most part). Certainly remaining would have been difficult, but a Maia who carefully remained apart from the conflicts between Morgoth and the Valar might well succeed in remaining relatively untouched. Such I believe was Bombadil, you might say he was a neutral! >It would indeed. Though to be evenhanded, one should also consider >that "Fatherless" was actually part of the Elves' name for him, and >may or may not have been accurate. It would also make him fatherless, the Ainur were primeval spirits and had no parents! They were directly created. >In fact, given the broad variety of Maiar in whose existence we can >have confidence, the hypothesis that Bombadil was one seems >perfectly reasonable to me. I might even hazard a guess that >Goldberry was also a Maia, originally serving the water Valar >(whose name escapes me just now). Indeed, I think the case for Goldberry is even stronger than for Bombadil. She is nowhere nearly as unusual as he is. My impression from careful reading of the available texts is that she was the Maia of the River Withywindle! What the Greeks would have called a Naiad. And I think she still served the Valar. >For myself, though, I prefer to have Bombadil unclassified (my >preference, as opposed to what I only find reasonable). I find that >tidying unexplained matters into conveniently available categories >tends to deprive them of some of their richness. Personally, I'd >sooner have Bombadil marvellous and unexplained than "yet another >Maia; we already know about those". And (in a different way, >obviously) I think the same could be said of Shelob. I will admit that Bombadil and Shelob are very unusual and difficult to fully explain. Indeed it may be that some of the Ainur who entered Ea were of a different sort, not either Maiar or Valar. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 86 14:37:14 GMT From: weitek!robert@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Hobbits, Beornings, et al. friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes: >robert@weitek.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) writes: >>is descended from a "renegade" Maia; one who found Middle-Earth so >>fascinating that he forsook his duties to live there. Tom >>Bombadil is another who falls into this category. For that >>matter, so do Sauron, Saruman, the Balrog of Moria, Shelob, and >>Radagast the Brown. > > No, Radagast the Brown is one of the five Istari who were *sent* >to Middle Earth in the Third Age to combat Sauron. Yes, but the Istari are Maia, and Radagast was indeed unfaithful: Indeed, of all the Istari, only one remained faithful... For Radagast, the fourth, became enamoured of the many beasts and birds that dwelt in Middle-earth, and forsook Elves and Men, and spent his days among the wild creatures. Unfinished Tales, p. 390 Robert Plamondon UUCP: {turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 86 00:53:53 GMT From: context@uw-june (Ronald Blanford) Subject: Re: Hobbits et al. After due consideration, I have to conclude that Beorn was one of the Maiar. The Ainur were the only beings in all of Tolkien's writing who were able to effect changes of bodily form. A particularly graphic example is Sauron's changes from man to wolf to snake to vampire during and after his fight with Huon (in the Tale of Beren and Luthien), but other examples are the Balrog in Moria (creature of fire to creature of slime) and Saruman ("sometimes appearing as an old man"). Melkor, too, changed shape, although after destroying the Trees he chose to remain the Dark Lord. I can't think of any other examples of either Men or Elves who were able to discard their bodies without actually dying. Beorn also reminds me of Tom Bombadil in the way he staked out a personal territory over which he exhibits a great deal of mastery, while remaining relatively uninterested in the world outside. Both are also particularly aware of the inner thoughts of their guests. The remainder of the Beornings may be human, or a mixture of human and Maia, as there is no direct evidence that they share Beorn's shape-changing ability, but Beorn himself must be pure Maia. Ron ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 86 09:13:33 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Glorfindel Well, come to think of it, maybe that is the reason that he lived in the wraith-world too...because it's his second (?) time around! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 86 17:32 EDT From: Allan C. Wechsler <acw@WAIKATO.SCRC.Symbolics.COM> Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #200 I'm surprised that Sarima couldn't translate "Ungoliant". If "Cirith Ungol" is "the Pass of the Spider", and "Iant Iaur" is "Old Bridge", mightn't "Ungol-iant" be "Old Spider"? ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 86 18:14:46 GMT From: petrus!purtill@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Purtill) Subject: Re: Hobbits et al. >[arguments based on "no one else (we've seen) can change shape, >so:] but Beorn himself must be pure Maia. Nonsense. Who ever said we know everything about Middle Earth? He could be something else that just doesn't happen to turn up any where else, probably because of minimal contact with elves. mark purtill (201) 829-5127 Arpa: purtill@bellcore.com 435 south st 2H-307 Uucp: ihnp4!bellcore!purtill morristown nj 07960 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Jul 86 1247-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #212 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 29 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 212 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (13 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Jul 86 06:45:20 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE) brucec@tekgen.UUCP (Bruce Cheney) writes: > 4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space > ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them, > they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only > glimmer of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an > elevator. a quibble. these weren't the critters that were piloting the original ship. The original ship was flown by giants, who were infested with these critters. Umm. The following is based on the first movie and the book of the first movie. I haven't seen the second yet. Looks to me as if the Aliens were biological constructs, designed for an interstellar war. The enemy appears to have been some sort of federation, composed of many beings of fairly different biochemistries. Stage 1 Alien (the form that popped out of the egg) is designed to latch onto and analyze its victims body chemistry. It then manufactures and inserts the Stage 2 Alien. This lives parasitically on the host until big enough, when it emerges. Generally, it should finish eating the host, and turn into the Stage 3 Alien (in the first film, it fled the host and presumably holed up in the pantry). Stage 3 Alien goes around, implanting other Stage 2 Aliens and scaring cats (Stage 1 can be skipped--the analysis has already been done). Stage 2 can also turn into a Stage 3a (not seen), which lays the eggs containing the Stage 1 Aliens. david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 86 07:37:04 GMT From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott) Subject: How I learned to stop worrying and love the ALIENS All right you lot, what exactly is going on here? It would seem that the standard formula for articles about "Aliens" is to say "Wow, it was an excellent film, but...." and then proceed to nit pick at every possible plot slip, scientific error or general mistake that can possibly be found (and some that can't). I saw the film last night, was riveted to the screen throughout and left with a distinct case of the shakes, and now I'm not going to say anything nasty about it for these reasons: a) it was an adventure film in which meticulous attention to detail might have advanced its critical aclaim, but would certainly have resulted in boring tying-up-of-loose-ends scenes. b) it was made under the guidance of a completely different production team to the original "Alien" and like all such sequels, had inconsistencies. Viewers, to my mind should have entered the theatre with this in mind and not gripe about it afterwards. Take for example 2010 and 2001, two very different films with a story line in common, but both enjoyable in their own right. OK, so 2001 is an all time classic and 2010 more an adventure style sf yarn (note I write "sf" and NOT "sci-fi", all you heathens out there), but, viewed as an independent film, 2010 was still quite worth seeing. c) it never once tried to present itself as scientifically accurate, and besides has anyone ever seen a truly scientifically accurate sf film? Even 2001 has 2 mistakes at least (the drinking straw, and the display in the Orion of the Space station docking bay that continues to turn long after the 2 have matched rotation) and the scientific consultancy associated with that was formidible. d) I want one of those whole body Waldoes like as wot Ripley uses to polish off the queen. e) it was nice to see a murderous film where the ones getting murdered fully deserved it (by which I mean, that if it were between humans and aliens then I'd probably side with the humans, nasty lot tho' they are) , and weren't just the baddies who happened to be on the wrong end of the gun. It wasn't "Rambo meets Alien", if it were, then the Alien would have to win for me to really enjoy it. Pardon me for using 2001 twice as an example, but it is the best sf movie ever made (anyone who thinks otherwise, I'll meet you in net.duels just as soon as I persuade them to set it up). One more point, PLEASE no one take me personally unless you really want to,cos if you do I'll set my pet face-hugger on you. Tim Abbott P.S. A few have been making comments about the feministic nature of the film. Don't you think it would have been fun if Vasquez had survived rather than Hicks (wasn't that his name). Personally, I thought that she was the only one with a sufficiently well developed character to make it, all the others bore something of the air of a Star Trek redshirt. Then, of course, could she have delivered the line "This doesn't mean that we're engaged or anything"? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 86 13:38 EDT From: whit@STONY-BROOK.SCRC.Symbolics.COM Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #202 >Since the Queen manages to survive liftoff and space long enough to >hang on to the second shuttle and show up in the mother ship, there >is the possibility that she could somehow survive the ejection from >the mother ship into space to return (in Alien 3). Then, there is >still always the cat... Or Newt. The final shot of her and Ripley in the hibernators seemed a bit suspicious to me. And although Ripley saved her from impregnation when she was found slimed, who's to tell what happened to Newt before Ripley found her. Didn't someone suggest that the impregnators worked pretty fast? Cheers, Dan Ts'o Dept. Neurobiology Rockefeller Univ. 1230 York Ave. NY, NY 10021 212-570-7671 ...cmcl2!rna!dan rna!dan@cmcl2.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 86 11:36:09 PDT From: Michael O'Brien <obrien%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA> Subject: What Aliens really are I think it's been pretty well established that the Aliens didn't build the crashed ship they were found in. However, the deceased pilot did resemble them somewhat. My bet is that this was a troop ship. The Aliens are genetically engineered soldiers, a la "The Dragon Masters". It's a nifty idea: ship a bunch of eggs and one pilot to the war zone, hatch 'em out, maybe train 'em a little (whatever wouldn't fit into the genetic code), after the first batch of face-huggers take care of some natives, and throw 'em out the hatch. Unfortunately, as that pilot discovered, it's hazardous work. Once you've "won" the engagement, there's probably a plague or something to get rid of the soldiers. Note that once all the food's gone, the Aliens just sort of go dormant and hang onto the walls, rather than being curious or discovering fire or anything. They don't seem to have any normal survival motivations aside from wiping out any other life form they encounter. Give the humans credit for actually surviving an encounter with untrained, unarmed infants! :-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu 24 Jul 86 14:29:41-CDT From: Pete Galvin <CC.GALVIN@R20.UTEXAS.EDU> Subject: Aliens rebuttal I think we're (you're) missing a point about technology: just because a little lifeboat ship took 59 year to make the trip doesn't mean the Marines couldn't make the trip in a few days. My vote is that they went to sleep because of acceleration (or some such) or maybe to save resources. About the screwup in the company: I wouldn't be surprised if in 59 years the files had been lost (or destroyed) concerning the first trip to the planet. There are certainly some holes in the plot though, but fairly minor: leaving the mother ship unoccupied, the marines only having some tin plates for armor (if they could do the forklift, why not a suit made the same way?), and the relative lack of firepower displayed. Pete ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 86 13:21:18 GMT From: gouldsd!mjranum@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Aliens > Ah well, this is a tradition that's been going on since the > silents. It's just amazing that in movie life no matter how hard > you kill something, it always comes back to eat somebody else. of course, the problem with that is there's not much left for 'ol Ripley to blow up. In the first movie she detonated a whole spaceship to kill *ONE* little alien. In the second, she nukes a fair portion of a planet, including an outrageously expensive installation. I can tell that in ALIENS III she will destroy at least the core systems, or maybe just one of the spiral arms... :-) "If thine ALIEN offends thee, blow it and everything else up..." ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 86 21:04:24 GMT From: ptsfd!djo@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Aliens Yeah, the aliens are parasites. But you want an idea for a *really* scary movie? Humans meet the hosts aliens evolved in. Remember: a truly successful parasite doesn't kill its host; it would wind up with no source of food. Can you imagine the critter that can survive being infested with aliens? Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 86 21:31:07 GMT From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*) srt@ucla-cs.ARPA (Scott Turner) writes: >Hicks says the relief mission will show up in 17 days. So why use >cold sleep to make the trip? No answers to the rest of the questions in this submission, but adding things up, it certainly looks like cold sleep is NOT used because space travel times are particularly long. According to the book (I haven't yet seen the movie), the trip from earth to Acheron takes three weeks (subjective time? relative to earth?) Clearly, this must be FTL travel (the book also notes that messages from earth take a week to arrive, which indicates FTL communication). Obviously, three weeks is not a long time to spend on board ship, so people must be put into cold sleep for some reason other than to reduce aging. Perhaps it reduces life support requirements; perhaps it's the only way to survive "jumps" (the technique for FTL travel). Ripley was missing 57 years not because voyages normally take that long but because a signalling device on her ship didn't work (maybe because of the alien). She ended up adrift with no beacon that would let others find her. When she was finally picked up, it was by a salvage ship that was looking for metal in asteroids. Naturally, the metal of her craft attracted their attention...but that was sheer luck. Jim Gardner University of Waterloo ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 86 15:27:27 GMT From: ukecc!smith@caip.rutgers.edu (Jemearl Thomas Smith) Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*) O.k. here goes: FIRST: The dropship was removed from the supposed area of battle. It's job was ONLY deposit the Marines to the combat area, and get out. If you observed closely, you saw that the co-pilot was off doing something. Or, they could've been letting off heat from the flight (comming through the atmosphere DOES create some heat, No?) SECOND: Hicks stated that they would be reported missing in 17 days. The trip perhaps took longer, so there would be a need for hypersleep. THIRD: The dropship left the platform because it was unstable. As for hovering over it, if the platform gave way, then there would be nothing under it for the support jets to function upon. (in other words *BOOM*) In the book, Bishop states that it was eaiser to take the dropship down under platform, where the air was less turbulant. FOURTH: First, we look at a Marine: BIG, HUSKY, MALE-TYPE PERSON. Now we look at Ripley: SMALL, NOT-SO-HUSKY, FEMALE-TYPE PERSON. The weapon she threw together was more than likely very heavy, and bulky. So she didn't have the extra weight or area to store extra clips. She only had enough room to store some markers. She knew the station was doomed to blow up anyway. She knew she was going to the lair of the Aliens, Hell, I'd shoot, blow-up, and mangle everything in my path too. To heck with safty. FIFTH: Hicks was with her thoughout the entire movie. Ripley killed the face-hugger that was going to impregnate Newt. So, no need to scan anyone. SIXTH: Bishop, was a unique "synthetic person" he usually made up his own mind. (also, If Ash (robot 1st movie) was programmed with Asimov's laws, why did he try to ace Ripley?) ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jul 86 09:43:03 EDT From: Ray <CARON@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU> Subject: Aliens re:the explosion of the reactor I'm not sure who wrote it but someone was questioning the small explosions occuring during Ripley's foray into the nest. I work at a nuclear plant and may be able to shed some light. I know that there has been time for massive tech steps forward but at this plant there are numerous Diesel Generators, tanks of liquid Oxygen, hydrogen storage and other flammable materials. This could add up to alot of small explosions, say the flamer hit a diesel storage tank, that would create a nice fireball, and most plants that go completely out of control produce a large hydrogen bubble and we all know the damage that did to Chernobyl(sp?). One *BIG* argument that I have with the movie that unless they supposedly don't use the same fuel that is now used it is *NEXT* *TO* *IMPOSSIBLE* for a nuclear plant to explode as they had it. Now a melt down of a plant the size of the one in the movie would do serious damage to the immediate area but there would be no mushroom cloud. I expect some interesting responses to this. Ray ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 86 15:48:14 GMT From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*) A huge problem with "Alien," "Aliens," "The Thing (remake)," and many other films in this genre hasn't ever been mentioned in this group (as far as I can tell). You see, for a little organism to grow into a big organism it needs BIOMASS. One minute you've got a cute li'l chest burster, the next you've got a big lug on the lines of Arnold Schwarzenegger. Whaa? WHERE DID THE BIOMASS COME FROM??? It's enough to make anyone who's gotten beyond Bio 101 puke ... Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jul 86 15:23:05 GMT From: okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (The New Number Who) Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*) smith@ukecc.UUCP (Jemearl Thomas Smith) writes: > THIRD: The dropship left the platform because it was unstable. As > for hovering over it, if the platform gave way, then there would > be nothing under it for the support jets to function upon. (in > other words *BOOM*) Wrong. Newton's Third Law clearly states: "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." If your theory were true, then rockets would not be able to function in space ("Nothing to push against, therefore no thrust"). As long as the hovering jets can fire, then it will hover, even if they were in a vacuum. Nice try. Jeff Okamoto okamoto@ucbvax.berkeley.edu ..!ucbvax!okamoto ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 86 14:26:09 EDT From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@bbn-labs-b.arpa> Subject: RE: ALIENS (Spoilers) Guess I'll put my 2 cents worth in: I also wondered why Ripley was loading her gun on the elevator, and then realized she was doing it to save time--she only had ~15 minutes to rescue Newt and get away. I thought the alien should have ripped Ripley's foot off, but it looked to me as if she'd torn off Ripley's boot/shoe instead. I'm not certain about this, even though I looked hard, because there was only one brief distance shot that showed Ripley's foot after that. I was glad to see Jones the cat return in a featured role. The "ever been mistaken for a man" bit was good, but my own favorite line was: "I may be artificial, but I'm not stupid." And yes, I also think Hicks was probably "impregnated" by Bishop so that 20th Century Vole can bring us ALIENS 3. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Jul 86 1306-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #213 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 30 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 213 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Jul 86 18:45:49 GMT From: tekig5!chrisa@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Andersen) Subject: Re: ALIENS leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes: > The viewer will leave the theater a bit out of breath, but not >knowing much more about the nature of society in the future or the >nature of the alien life form. We learn less new about the alien >life form in ALIENS than we learn in five minutes of the original >film. I disagree, I think this movie added considerably to my understanding of the future society in both films. For example, in the first film The Company was potrayed as the villain but not much detail was given to it's makeup. In _Aliens_ however the character of Burke gives a much better idea of just how The Company operates. It's sort of a logical extension of current Yuppie attitudes into the far future. Also, information about the aliens was extended considerably what with the addition of the mother alien. It becomes obvious that the aliens are a colony race very similar to termites, bees, and ants; something that isn't so obvious from the first movie. > As a sequel, ALIENS has at least two problems. As the title >suggests, where there was one monster in ALIEN, this film has many. >One would expect each one to be as bad as the monster in the first >film. No way. The creature in the first film could have eaten for >breakfast most of the monsters in the second film. In specific, >the creature in the first film was invulnerable to flame throwers, >I think. It seems to me that the new creatures of the same species >are not. There just is not enough time to make each creature as >bad. The problem is not that the aliens in _Aliens_ look too weak but that the alien in _Alien_ was made to look too strong. You must remember that in the first movie the humans had no conception of the power that the creature had, they were working from blind ignorance. Also, the humans in _Alien_ were only intersteller traders, not soldiers. They didn't really have that much combat and strategic experience, thus making the fight a lot tougher on them. There are many other factors that also made the fight against the one alien in _Alien_ much more difficult. The crew of the Nostromo had no where near the kind of firepower the soldiers in _Aliens_ did (the flamethrowers in _Alien_ were hack jobs while the ones in _Aliens_ were the *real* things). Also, the fight against the aliens in _Aliens_ took place on the surface of the planet while the one in _Alien_ took place on board a ship in deep space. Remember that the chief problem the crew of the Nostromo had was that they couldn't just blow the alien away since its acid blood would then eat right through the hull of the ship. Btw, as a defense mechanism, I thought the acid blood was kind of silly when I first saw it in _Alien_, but after witnessing the fights in _Aliens_ I realized that it's basically equivalent to the stinging capabilities of bees. They both result in the death of the creature, but at least they cause a lot of harm to their attackers in the aftermath. > Another problem is the introduction of "soft characters." The >film introduces a child character. It is a serious mistake because >scriptwriters are bound by certain unwritten rules akin to chivalry >about what can and cannot befall weak and sympathetic characters >like children. I don't think your criticism is justified. Newt was an essential character to the story since she supplied the motivation for Ripley's character. Remember that in the first movie her main drive was to just survive and get out even at the cost of blowing up the Nostromo. However, in _Aliens_, she gets a much strong motivation, sort of a mothering instinct, which drives her to attack the aliens directly instead of running away as she did in the first movie (also, the use of the mother image is important in the context of the final showdown between Ripley and the mother alien. They were both protecting their children.) > One final problem is the predictability of certain scenes. >Relatively early in the film I was seeing scenes and saying to >myself, "I bet there will be a scene in which such-and-such happens >later." At least twice I was right about important plot twists >toward the end. Yeah, I noticed that in a couple of places myself. Especially in the early scene with the loader. But that's a minor quibble. I'd rate both _Alien_ and _Aliens_ as +3 on a -4 to +4 scale, but for different reasons. _Alien_ was a superb horror flick while _Aliens_, smartly, avoided over imatation of it's predecessor by being more of an action adventure (with appropriate tips of the hat to it's prequel in the occaisional horror scene (such as the first trip into the hive)). My mailbox is always willing to accept letters. Chris Andersen (chrisa@tekig5) ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jul 86 18:22:14 GMT From: bambi!steve@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Miller) Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*) >>Why doesn't she subject Hicks and the girl to some kind of >>bio-scan once they get back up in orbit to make sure they aren't >>carrying an Alien embryo (eg, "sequel blindness": More Aliens). > > FIFTH: Hicks was with her thoughout the entire movie. Ripley > killed the face-hugger that was going to impregnate Newt. So, no > need to scan anyone. As we say here on the net: No, no, no. Hicks is alone the with Bishop the whole time that Ripley is Rambo-izing the nest. Also, Bishop goes as far as giving Hicks a knock-out shot. Hicks might not even know he was impregnated (raped?). And let's not forget about Jones the cat. Maybe Ripley and Newt will return to an Earth that's crawling with the things. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 86 18:38:10 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE) > I thought there were several large logical holes in Aliens. But they can be explained. > 1) TIME - The radio communications from the colony stop. This must > have happened when all the colonists got "slimed". So Ripley and > crew hop in a ship and go into DEEP SLEEP to get there. This means > it must take several YEARS to get there. But when they get there, > some of the slimed colonists are still "alive." In Alien, the > "gestation" period of the creature in a human body is a matter of > days, maybe weeks. BUT NOT YEARS !! The creatures also have this > tendency to impregnate any human on sight, so don't try to tell me > they were "saving" these folks for YEARS. It's possible that in the future deep sleep is standard for any voyage over a week or so. Why keep your crack troops cooped up bored for that long? > 2) PLOT SLIP-UP - The colonists haven't seen or heard anything > about creatures. But when Ripley shows up, they have a full-blown > research project going on the Alien biology. They even have > samples in jars of live critters (which must have stayed alive for > YEARS, see above). So they have been studying them for some time, > WITHOUT TELLING EARTH ?? A Watergate-style coverup by the company > ?? C'mon.... Again, not years. And obviously when Burke sent them out to check out the report, they brought back a few and started studying them. It's not unreasonable that a colony would have an advanced med section. > 3) Strategy slip-up - Would you take EVERYONE off your spaceship > for a ground mission ?? Leaving your backup shuttle up there ? > Making replenishment of supplies a round-trip operation instead of > a one-way operation ?? Cap'n Kirk would never have approved. Do you leave someone in your car when you park it at the train station to take the train? Remember, this is advanced technology. Why should they leave someone in the spaceship? Particularly since they obviously can call down the other shuttle by radio. It's just the fact that the colony's equipment is damaged that causes them any problem. > 4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space > ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them, > they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only > glimmer of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an > elevator. As many people have said, the "aliens" didn't pilot the ship; another race did. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 86 10:28 PST From: Brown@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA, David D From: <zaphod%wwu.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA> Subject: Alien and Aliens tekgen!brucec@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Cheney) writes: >4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space >ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them, >they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only glimmer >of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an elevator. In the original Alien, when the Nostromo crew enters the derelict, they come upon a 'skeleton' that seems to have been killed by an alien bursting through it's chest. Since it always seemed to me that the aliens didn't reproduce in each other, I assumed that the derelict landed on the planet, and encountered the aliens, which were an indigenous life form (making 'Alien' a misnomer). And if you've ever looked over the original story, it went like this: Nostromo hears distress signal, lands to investigate. Enters derelict, comes across the skeleton. On the 'control panel' in front of the skeleton, they find a pyramid shape scratched into the metal (or whatever). Sure enough, with further investigation of the planet, they find the 'pyramid', and go investigate it. Lowering someone down into the pyramid, they discover that it has an internal atmosphere, so the helmet comes off. An egg opens, and, well you know what happens then. Incidently, the pyramid scene was to have a shot of a painting depicting the entire life cycle of the alien, done by H. R. Giger. He always regretted that they cut this sequence (due to time -- nobody wants a 2.5 hour horror flick) since that painting was some of his best work. I noticed that some of the colony buildings in 'Aliens' looked remarkably like the original artist's renderings of the pyramid... Dave Brown CSNET: zaphod%wwu.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 25 July 1986 11:03:51 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Carlo N. Samson) Subject: Aliens filksong Doug Alan, the moderator of Love-Hounds (a mailing list devoted to the discussion of music, especially the music of Kate Bush), has come up with a filksong which he gave me permission to pass along. Its sung to the tune of "Cloud Busting" (a song on KB's latest album, "Hounds of Love"). Here it is..... From: nessus (Doug Alan) Subject: Chestbursting A reliable source of rumour says that Kate has just seen the hottest SF thriller of the summer and likes it a lot. Apparently it has inspired her to write a new song, which will be released shortly as a special between-album single. A working version of the lyrics have gotten out; here they are: CHESTBURSTING I still dream of Aliens. I wake up crying. You're making eggs But you're out of reach When your cocoon encases me You're like my tapeworm That grew in my bowels What made it special Made it dangerous So I flushed it and forget. Everytime it pains, You're here in my chest Like the tapeworm coming out Oh, I just know that something gross is going to happen And I don't know when But just thinking it could even make it happen. Under the reactor Wrapped up in this slime You could see them coming They looked too small In their big metal lander To be a threat to the mother Alien I flushed my tapeworm when it got too big I can't flush you down the toilet Oh God! I can't forget! Your son's coming out (Ouch!) Your son's coming out (Agggh!) Your son's coming out (Aaaghargaglephfftargletoopgaaaaaaggggh!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 86 14:40 EDT From: whit@STONY-BROOK.SCRC.Symbolics.COM Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #206 >>3) Strategy slip-up - Would you take EVERYONE off your spaceship >>for a ground mission ?? Leaving your backup shuttle up there ? >>Making replenishment of supplies a round-trip operation instead of >>a one-way operation ?? Cap'n Kirk would never have approved. > >Remember, these marines are COMPANY Marines, and just follow orders >and operational procedures set down by the Board of Directors (and >we all know how swift they are!). I'm not so sure of this. After the first big fight below the reactor when it is decided that Hick is now in command, Ripley, I think, makes it clear to Burke that this is a military operation and that therefore Hick had the authority to order nuking the installation. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jul 86 09:39:03 GMT From: ulowell!dobro@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Bughunt! (ALIENS, SPOILERS, SPOILERS) This was mentioned (I think) a littl while ago, but nobody seemed to have noticed. Now, something in the movie (I haven't seen it yet) may refute this, but here goes anyway: Maybe the Compnay KNEW what was going on, but refused to (publically?) admit it. The android's programming in the orig. and a few other things could easily lead us to this conclusion. Comments? Phone : (617) 937-0551 USMail: P.O.Box 8524, Lowell, Ma. 01853 Usenet: ...!{wanginst,masscomp,apollo}!ulowell!dobro ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jul 86 07:52:49 GMT From: sun!falk@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*) >She was also pretty blithe about using the gun and the hand >grenades underneath the "thermal converters" - something she'd >warned others against earlier - which was presumably more dangerous >now that the plant was about to blow sky-high. The reason she warned about the "thermal converters" was that there was a risk of starting a meltdown. Vasquez brought her own bullets and used them with the result that the meltdown started just as Ripley warned. Once the reaction was started, it hardly mattered that Ripley fired off a few more rounds. > If you observed closely, you saw that the co-pilot was off doing > something. Taking a leak I would imagine. :^) > SECOND: Hicks stated that they would be reported missing in 17 > days. The trip perhaps took longer, so there would be a need for > hypersleep. No, they seemed to think they only had to hold out for 17 days. I believe, though, that 17 days was too long to stay awake. In the Alien book, when the monster was roaming around loose, they were faced with the problem that they only had a two-day air supply. Even though they would be home in only two months, they still had to go into sleep in order to make it. They had two options: Use the two days to hunt the thing down and arrive home with *no* air left; or go into sleep and hope that the monster would be killed by vacuum (when the ship was evacuated after they went to sleep) or hope that it couldn't get through the glass booths (they had already seen what it could do to someone's helmet). > A huge problem with "Alien," "Aliens," "The Thing (remake)," and > many other films in this genre hasn't ever been mentioned in this > group (as far as I can tell). You see, for a little organism to > grow into a big organism it needs BIOMASS. One minute you've got a > cute li'l chest burster, the next you've got a big lug on the > lines of Arnold Schwarzenegger. Whaa? WHERE DID THE BIOMASS COME > FROM??? It's enough to make anyone who's gotten beyond Bio 101 > puke ... Well, in the Alien book, the monster had free run of the pantry for about half a day before anybody found it. Vasquez was GREAT! I loved the line when they first got attacked by the aliens and she realized that it was time to start shooting her gun: "Alright, let's ROCK!" ed falk, sun microsystems falk@sun.com sun!falk ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Jul 86 1322-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #214 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 30 Jul 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 214 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Jul 86 18:25:01 GMT From: blade!jcn@caip.rutgers.edu (Julio Cesar Navas) Subject: Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast in Middle-Earth >>is descended from a "renegade" Maia; one who found Middle-Earth so >>fascinating that he forsook his duties to live there. Tom >>Bombadil is another who falls into this category. For that >>matter, so do Sauron, Saruman, the Balrog of Moria, Shelob, and >>Radagast the Brown. > >No, Radagast the Brown is one of the five Istari who were *sent* to >Middle Earth in the Third Age to combat Sauron. Well, not exactly... Let's take it from the beginning ---- In the Second Age, Morgoth's lieutenant, Sauron, comes to the west, helps the elves make their rings, makes the One Ring to rule them all, trashes Eregion and Eriador in wars with the elves, is stopped by Numenore, taken prisoner by Ar-Pharazon, encompasses the downfall of Numenore, and loses a war against the the Numenorean Faithful and the elves. Unfortunately, the One Ring isn't unmade by Isildur so Sauron still has another chance to come back and try again. Now the Valar knew this. Therefore they decided to send five maia to help the free peoples (i.e. - those not under Sauron's domination) in their struggle against Sauron. These maia were the Istari. They were Saruman the White, Gandalf the Grey, Radagast the Brown, and two unknown blue wizards. The two unknown wizards went east and never returned. Now the three remaining wizards travelled around the lands of the west aiding people/elves, giving advice, etc.. By the end of the Third Age, only Gandalf has carried out his charge. Only Gandalf has 'kept the Faith'. Saruman had switched sides and turned to evil (desiring to keep the One Ring for himself and become the new Lord of Middle-Earth). Radagast had become so enamored of the birds and animals of Middle-Earth (esp. the birds) that he forsook his duties and really didn't do much in the way of helping the free peoples in any way. NOTE: Only Gandalf returned to Aman !!!! A sure sign that he had carried out his duties faithfully and the others had not. Therefore, to describe Saruman and Radagast as 'renegade maia who had become so fascinated by Middle-Earth that they forsook their duties to stay there' is entirely correct. Why did only Gandalf make it? There's a fairly simple answer to that. The Istari were maiar who took on the forms of men to come to Middle-Earth (by order of the Valar) to help the free peoples in their struggles against Sauron. Therefore, since they took on the fleshy forms of men, they were susceptible to the frailties of man (like greed, pride, avarice) and of the flesh. Now Gandalf was given Narya, the Ring of Fire. It bolstered him by strengthening his will and his resolve (listen to the words of Cirdan: use [the ring] as the fire to rekindle men's hearts in a world that grows cold......looks like it rekindled Gandalf's heart too - when he was down and out). Thusly strengthened, Gandalf was able to overcome even the worst of barriers in his path - barriers that left the other Istari befuddled and searching for an easy way around the barriers (like Saruman and the One Ring --- he said to Gandalf that with the One Ring they could give some order to the world and save the world from Sauron, that they would be doing the same thing as they were doing now but only in a different manner.) Therefore only Gandalf was able to 'make it' through to the end and complete his charge. Julio C. Navas ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 86 23:04:34 cdt From: ops@ncsc.ARPA (Tharp) Subject: Who or What Is Gandalf? The origin of Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron is detailed in the _Silmarillon_, as are the origins of all other creatures, even Shelob and Tom Bombadill. Jessie Tharp ops@ncsc ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jul 86 19:43:18 GMT From: weitek!robert@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Hobbits et al. context@uw-june (Ronald Blanford) writes: >After due consideration, I have to conclude that Beorn was one of >the Maiar. The Ainur were the only beings in all of Tolkien's >writing who were able to effect changes of bodily form. [...] I >can't think of any other examples of either Men or Elves who were >able to discard their bodies without actually dying. Two examples: Luthien Elwing While some of you may doubt that Luthien's shape change was real, Elwing's definitely was. She couldn't fly in her normal form, after all. >The remainder of the Beornings may be human, or a mixture of human >and Maia, as there is no direct evidence that they share Beorn's >shape-changing ability, but Beorn himself must be pure Maia. Since we see shape-shifting ability transmitted up to two generations removed from the Maia grandparent, I disagree. And wasn't there a reference to Beorn's death at the council of Elrond? Robert Plamondon UUCP: {turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1986 09:44 EDT From: Andrew T. Robinson <ANDY%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> Subject: LOTR I feel that I must disagree with you on several counts. While I think it is obvious that Middle Earth is not a reality, it nonetheless exists in more than one way. Occasionally, a writer comes up with something that is bigger than he is, and I think this is the case with Tolkien and LOTR. It is what I would personally strive for as a writer... to produce something with such far-reaching appeal that it takes on a life of its own. And LOTR has done exactly that. To reduce it to the level of "just another novel" is the real crime. At the same time, I tend to regard Tolkien's other works, such as the Silm., as authoritative references. If there are some discrepencies and/or inconsistencies amongst the various texts, I do not feel that detracts from the overall effect. If you examine similar texts dealing with our culture you will find much more extensive discrepencies. So I guess on that score I agree... Tolkien's reference works should be regarded as the final word. Where two or more references do not synch or are ambiguous, then it is up to the individual to decide, based on the preponderance of available evidence, which explanation suits him/her best. But Middle Earth *does* exist. And I believe that JRRT would be very PLEASED if he knew of all the people in the world who put so much time and effort into *making* it exist. He provided the framework for that world, and his readers provide the imagination and raw substance that make it work. Andy Robinson University of Maine ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jul 86 23:12:04 GMT From: cstvax!db@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Berry) Subject: Tolkien's blue wizards Does anyone have any references to the Blue Wizards in LOTR? I think they were the Istari/Maia (sp?) called Curunir & Olorin. I also think they went into the East of Middle Earth. I'm designing a board wargame of the Lord of the Rings; I want to include alternative monsters/objects/characters that the Fellowship of the Ring could have met if they took a different route. I have some ideas (others welcome); I'd like to know more about the blue Wizards to see if a meeting with one of them in Rhun would (have) be(en) a possibility. Someone suggested to me that, as Gandalf had power with fire, and Radagast had power with animals, so a Blue Wizard could have had power with water (for want of better knowledge). I'm sure some of you are aghast at this; please respond if I'm way off the mark. Dave Berry CS postgrad, Univ. of Edinburgh ...mcvax!ukc!cstvax!db ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 86 02:30:00 GMT From: kagraves@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Kenneth A Graves) Subject: Re: Tolkien's blue wizards db@cstvax.UUCP (Dave Berry) writes: >Does anyone have any references to the Blue Wizards in LOTR? I >think they were the Istari/Maia (sp?) called Curunir & Olorin. I >also think they went into the East of Middle Earth. Close, but no cigar. Read "The Istari", an essay on wizards included in the Unfinished Tales. Curunir(a follower of Aule)=Saruman, Olorin(loyal to Varda and Manwe)=Gandalf. The Blue Wizards were named Pallando and Alatar. They were followers of Orome. To quote the master: "I think they went as emmissaries to distant regions, East and South.... What success they had I do no know; but I fear thay they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways...." (Unfinished Tales, p.406) I interpret this to mean that Tolkien's persona as translator of ancient myths could find no further reference to the blue wizards. I.e. no word of their task reached Gondor or Rivendell. I guess the following: The Valar see that Middle Earth cannot be home for the elves much longer. The Noldor and Teleri that remain are leaving via the Grey Havens and other ports. The Avari, however, have not (clearly?) heard the call of the sea, but are still wandering Middle and Eastern Earth. Thus two followers of Orome, Alatar and Pallando, are dispatched to attempt to find the remnants of the Avari and extend the invitation of the Valar. Why followers of Orome? Because 1) he alone of the Valar knows the eastern lands, and 2) he gave the initial invitation at Cuivienen and is still interested in bringing the Avari to Aman. Did they succeed in this mission? No marching of the Avari is recorded, but there are many ways to the Sea that don't pass by Gondor. >Someone suggested to me that, as Gandalf had power with fire, and >Radagast had power with animals, so a Blue Wizard could have had >power with water (for want of better knowledge). Water power would derive from Ulmo. Orome was primarily concerned with hunting. What powers the blue wizards had I can't guess, but water strikes me as unlikely. Gee, isn't the fourth age fun? I wonder how the rest of the non-human races are supposed to be supplanted by Man. We still have Orcs, trolls, dwarves, hobbits, ents, and loads of etceteras to deal with, even after we ship all of the elves West. Kenneth Graves kagraves@athena.MIT.EDU kagraves@athena.ARPA kagraves@athena.UUCP (I think) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jul 86 01:16:02 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Debating Tolkien's word WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA writes: > First, we get a message from Mr Dalton that states that the >author of LotR is not the final authority on the book he wrote. >And then, Mr Milne ... goes and agrees with him. NOW WAIT JUST A >MINUTE!!!!!! > . . . Therefore, it doesn't have an objective reality apart >from what Mr Tolkien has presented us with. I think that if I >wrote a novel, or a series of novels, and someone thereafter >refused to believe anything else I wrote about the world-setting of >that/those novel(s), I would be furious! I quite understand your consternation with the idea of choosing to doubt (I was going to say "disbelieve", but that's too strong) parts of what an author writes about his creation. Let me give the reasons that I have chosen to do so regarding Middle Earth, and you can judge whether they seem valid. In fact, I do take Tolkien as the most final authority we will ever have, since nobody, even his son, knows as much about it as he did. However, I don't quite take him as the absolute authority, and I'll say why not. In cases where the point of view is indeed that the author created the world he describes, I don't see how one can do otherwise than take his writings as the absolute authority. So, for instance, I would take anything C.S. Lewis wrote about Narnia as Narnian "fact"; likewise with Edgar Rice Burroughs about Barsoom, or Leonard Webbley about the Duchy of Grand Fenwick ("The Mouse that Roared", "The Mouse in the Moon"), or Ursula LeGuin about her Earthsea archipelago, to name a few. And in fact, I would guess that maybe 95% to 99% of all fictionally created worlds have this point of view. Middle Earth does not. Professor Tolkien identified himself not as its creator, but rather as the translator of its histories. Perhaps this was the role most comfortable to him, since a large part of his professional life was spent doing such translations. However, it has a convenient effect on answering any given question about Middle Earth: as translator, rather than creator, he will know as much about it as his readings of the original materials taught him. That certainly gives him the advantage over us, who have only the material he has translated and published; nevertheless, it excuses him from knowing everything there is to know about this world, and frees him to have opinions. Obviously, this is a polite fiction, but I try to respect it, as I respect his desire that only authorised publications of LotR be bought. (By the way, who was it who decided to publish LotR without even telling Tolkien, much less asking him? That part of the controversy I never heard.) So his knowledge of Middle Earth can be no more complete than the accounts he has translated. And, whereas the Red Book of Westmarch is the hobbits' own personal account of what happened to them, plus the observations of their friends, "Translations from the Elvish" is at best secondhand (Elves to Bilbo), and possibly third-, fourth-, or more. While I by no means actually presume that they are inaccurate (a fifthhand story *CAN BE* as accurate as firsthand), I cannot actually know beyond a reasonable doubt whether they are. I therefore don't feel as safe in placing full confidence in them as I do in placing it in the firsthand accounts of "Lord of the Rings". And the most remote of the lot, the Music of the Ainulindale, was at very best only secondhand even to the Elves, so I feel the least safe of all in placing full confidence in it as a factual account. I still enjoy it greatly, of course: legend or fact, it is a lovely story. However, if you find the translation idea inadequate, consider that Tolkien wrote "Lord of the Rings" first (after Hobbit), out of the "desire of a storyteller to try his hand at a really good story." Although he also filled in histories of the Elder Days, as they grew from LotR, they were a much more private affair, as those whom he consulted felt they would be of no interest to the public (it is terrifying how often the friends of great artists have such wonderful advice to offer). I believe they were therefore less well developed, and certainly did not have the benefit of being released in two or three editions, as LotR was, with corrections of errors and inconsistencies. I therefore feel that they did not share the focus of Tolkien's efforts on LotR, and ultimately received less development. (I cannot feel there is any blame to place for this: very few people write even one LotR in their lifetimes, much less two. And Tolkien was working under difficult conditions. ) Finally, I'm not sure exactly how one should decide, even in the general case, when a letter by the author doesn't quite agree with what he has published. Is the more carefully prepared (presumably) publication to be preferred, or the letter which may have more experience behind it? The problem exists even when the author is viewed as the creator; when he considers himself only a translator, it is increased. However, I had virtually forgotten about this situation until I read Mr. Dalton's message. While I feel that comparing many of the stories of Silmarillion to Greek legend (in their remoteness and uncertain status) overstates the problem, I think there is still some similarity, and that the point made is a valid one, and I'm grateful to him for pointing it out. These are the aspects of the situation that I now see. If you feel there are others I'm missing, please try to convince me. (Though perhaps not on sf-lovers, where I've already taken far more than my fair share of space.) Alastair Milne ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Aug 86 1218-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #215 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 1 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 215 Today's Topics: Films - Dr. Phibes (2 msgs) & Videos (2 msgs), Television - Max Headroom, Miscellaneous - Sexy SF (4 msgs) & Ashbless & Time Travel & Chesley Bonestell & Space & Tarot in Books ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Jul 86 03:24:23 GMT From: imagen!turner@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: cut -d 1-14,39- > Has enyone ever seen a movie called 'Dr. Phibes' ? What was it > about? I only saw < 3 minutes of it and am especially interested > in what the organ playing was all about... There are actually 2 Dr. Phibes movies, _The Abominable Dr. Phibes_ and _The Return of Dr. Phibes_, both have some of the most ingenious death scenes I have ever seen, they star Vincent Price and are well worth seeing. Name: James M. Turner Mail: Imagen Corp. 2650 San Tomas Expressway, P.O. Box 58101 Santa Clara, CA 95052-8101 AT&T: (408) 986-9400 UUCP: ...{decvax,ucbvax}!decwrl!imagen!turner CompuServe: 76327,1575 GEnie : D-ARCANGEL ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 86 03:58:41 GMT From: eneevax!hsu@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Hsu) Subject: Re: cut -d 1-14,39- I don't remember what the second film was about (although it was still ingenious) so I'll stick to the first one. "The Abominable Dr. Phibes" is about a dead man (Dr. Phibes) seeking revenge against the medical team which failed to save his wife. Upon hearing of her death, Phibes hurries home but has an auto accident on a mountain road along the way, and dies in the ensuing fire. The film covers Phibes' revenge against the seven members of the hospital team, one at a time, using (more or less) the eight curses the Hebrews sent upon the Egyptians. I believe the list was boils, bats, frogs, blood, hail, locusts, death of the firstborn, and darkness. If I missed one or two, adjust the numbers seven and eight accordingly. Anyhow, Phibes rides around town in a carriage with drawn curtains (and a picture of the appropriate view of himself in each window) dealing death in sinister ways. Doctor: "...I'll kill you..." Phibes: "You can't kill me; I'm already dead..." David Hsu (301) 454-1433 || -8798 || -8715 Communications & Signal Processing Laboratory Systems Research Center, Bldg 093 The University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 ARPA: hsu@eneevax.umd.edu UUCP: [seismo,allegra,rlgvax]!umcp-cs!eneevax!hsu ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jul 86 16:30:26 GMT From: rdin!perl@caip.rutgers.edu (Robert Perlberg) Subject: Re: "Gerry Anderson" fan club A cassette called "Thunderbirds Are Go!" is available at your local video store. Robert Perlberg Resource Dynamics Inc. New York {philabs|delftcc}!rdin!perl ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 86 19:37:30 GMT From: celerity!jjw@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim ) Subject: Re: request for movies in video stores You missed one of my all-time favorites: Dark Star -- Not for those who take their SF seriously J. J. Whelan ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 86 20:02:21 GMT From: rlgvax!jsf@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Fritzinger) Subject: Re: Max Headroom (question) > There is currently a music video on MTV with Max Headroom as the > only performer. The VJ calls this computer graphics, and many > claims that Max is a computer synthetic have been made. I've been > a computer animator for years, and I claim that Max is NOT a > computer graphic (at least, not the portrayal currently on MTV). > The technology won't support it, and there are many "giveaways" in > the tape I saw. Can anyone confirm or deny this (WITH CITATIONS!)? Several months ago the Washington Post ran a story about Max Headroom in the Style sections. It included an interview with the actor who plays Max. What we see is the result of several hours of make-up to give the actor's head a "blocky" apperence. He is then taped, and the resulting tape run through some sort of digitizer. Then the computer graphics guys work it over to make it look like a generated image. I guess you could call that computer graphics, depending on your point of view. Steve Fritzinger CCI-OSG Reston,Va. seismo!rlgvax!jsf ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jul 86 16:29:40 GMT From: teklds!hankb@caip.rutgers.edu (Hank Buurman) Subject: Sexy SF From: Marty Walsh <MJWCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> > Back in June I posted a request for erotic SF favorites. I >have begun compiling the list that hopefully more people will add >to as time goes by. (Hint hint hint...) Great idea, Marty! All this LOTR stuff is getting boring. May I suggest John Varly's books. His "Titan" has some very hot lesbian sex, and introduces interspecies sex very uniquely. In his book "Millenium", the heroine (her name escapes me at the moment), has a robot which she uses for sex. Hope you post the results to the net soon. Hank Buurman Tektronix Inc. ...tektronix!tekla!hankb ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 86 01:14:14 GMT From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott) Subject: Re: Sexy SF Then there's : Disch's "334" Varley's "Ophiuchi hotline" (Big on sex, is Varley) Adams' "Maia" (all about a prostitute in fantasy surroundings) Trout's "Venus on the Half Shell" Moorcock's "Gloriana" (somewhat perverse if my memory serves me well) Farmer's Riverworld saga and "Blown" In film there's the immortal "Flesh Gordon", I mean, who could forget the emperor Wang's sex-ray. Of course, I haven't actually read any of this stuff.... :-) Tim Abbott p.s. while we're on the subject, I'm sure that you all know Chris Foss (air-brush artist extroadinaire - many book covers, album covers, art work for Krypton, Nostromo (in Alien)) but did you know that he did the art work for "Joy of Sex"? ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 86 15:23:22 GMT From: gouldsd!mjranum@caip.rutgers.edu (Marcus J. Ranum) Subject: Re: Sexy SF Lin Carter's Tara_Of_The_Twighlight or something like that... I used to have it when I was a kid... ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 86 17:44:22 GMT From: imagen!turner@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Sexy SF In my (not particularly humble) opinion the ultimate in erotic SF is Phillip Jose Farmer's _Blown_ and _Image of the Beast_ if you haven't read them then you've haven't read erotic SF, also I'd like to nominate Elizibeth Lynn's _Sardonix Net_ and The Trantor Series; and Colin Wilson's _Space Vampires_ or just about any fiction that he writes. Name: James M. Turner Mail: Imagen Corp. 2650 San Tomas Expressway, P.O. Box 58101 Santa Clara, CA 95052-8101 AT&T: (408) 986-9400 UUCP: ...{decvax,ucbvax}!decwrl!imagen!turner CompuServe: 76327,1575 GEnie : D-ARCANGEL ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 26 Jul 1986 14:07:06-PDT From: mccutchen%lehigh.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (R. TERRY MCCUTCHEN From: 289-1428) Subject: Wm. Ashbless. I vaguely recall that William Ashbless showed up as a name in MACROSCOPE by P. Anthony (or am I thinking of Sterling Lanier?). Terry ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jul 86 21:42:03 GMT From: tekecs!mikes@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael Sellers) Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment > There are a lot of good arguments against the possibility of time > travel, and since you did ask for comments I'll risk the flames > for posting a "not-real-physics" article here. I think this falls into more of a "could be might be maybe physics" more than "not-real-physics," but who cares. This is one of those topics that is to make the speculative salivaries to overflow :-). > Time travel violates the conservation of mass and energy laws. > Consider transporting a 1Kg cube of gold 1 hour back in time. > Then in the universe of 1 hour ago, there is this extra 1Kg from > nowhere, totally unaccounted for. Similarly in the here and now, > we lost 1Kg of mass, poof, just like that. Mass wasn't conserved > in our universe. That, as you should well realize, is a big > no-no. You have made an assumption here that is somewhat "temperocentric," and not necessarily true. You have assumed that the Universe is bound by the same linear time sense that we experience, at least with regard to the mass/energy conservation law. What if it is the case that, while mass and energy must be conserved, they do not have to be conserved with regard to time. That is, I can take a Kg of gold and project it 100 years in the future with no problem because, from the Universal point of view, I haven't gotten rid of it, merely transported it (though through time, not space). Thus it does not matter (in terms of conservation) if I take my gold and "send" it forward or backward in time, because it still exists, just "sometime" else. It would be possible, if this were true, to "rob" the future or past by taking all their gold and holding it here at this point in time. The consequences of this are rather mind-bending, especially in extreme cases (has anyone read the Stainless Steel Rat story where he has to go galavanting through time? there are some awfully interesting circular paths there regarding materials being around because they were sent from the future, so when the characters "get to" the future, they have them on hand to send back to the past...so where did they come from?). And of course just because we've beaten conservation doesn't mean we've gotten rid of the demon of causality. > There are lots of other arguments against it, causality and so > forth. As for causality, there is always the possibility of multiple futures/pasts, or some even weirder possibilities with multiple universes, etc. Still, the original experiment would almost seem to be a CETI project for time travel ("if it [ever] exists, this is the only way we'll know") with the advantage that we only need to set it up for a few minutes or a day at most. If the spatial and temporal coordinates are recorded and distributed well enough (time capsules, newspapers, libraries, etc, etc), then anyone with time travel capabilities would be able to "send" something/someone back to the window of time during which we were watching. As a collateral question (and possibly too speculative for these august groups :-), if you were the one capable of sending something back, what (or who) would it be? And, if you were around when the watching was done, what do you think the effect on "current" society would be? (This reminds me of the end of the movie "The Time Machine," where we find the hero having gone back to the future (:-) in his machine, taking only three books with him...and we are left wondering which three out of his library he chose to take with him...) Mike Sellers UUCP: ...!tektronix!tekecs!mikes ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 86 03:09:26 GMT From: utzoo!henry@caip.rutgers.edu (Henry Spencer) Subject: Chesley Bonestell, 1888-1986 [I posted this a few days ago to the space newsgroups; a friend pointed out that it is relevant to sf-lovers as well. Don't know why I didn't think of it, although no longer having the time to read sf-lovers probably had something to do with it... ] As I write this, it is the anniversary of the first landing on the moon. Early this morning, I read in *Locus* that one of the men who made it happen has died. Probably everyone reading this is familiar with space art: realistic depictions of space travel and other worlds. Today there are many skilled space artists. Forty years ago there was *one:* Chesley Bonestell. He died in his sleep on June 11th at the age of 98. Bonestell was interested in astronomical themes from his childhood. His first painting of Saturn was destroyed in the San Francisco earthquake of 1906. But for many years it was just a hobby. Professionally, he began as an architect, specializing in `rendering': production of realistic drawings and paintings of the final appearance of a project. He was a remarkably skilled renderer, and his unusual near-photographic style was in demand. Perhaps the height of his architectural career was as conceptual artist and designer for the Golden Gate Bridge. At the age of 50, he changed careers, becoming a Hollywood special effects artist. Here too he was a considerable success, working on *Citizen Kane* and *Destination Moon* (which won an Oscar for special effects) among others. A few years later, he took his new expertise in camera angles and applied it to his old hobby. He painted Saturn as it would appear from each of its moons. He submitted the results, unsolicited, to *Life*, which bought it and published it in 1944. Reader response was strongly favorable, and Bonestell quickly became the first professional space artist. In 1949 the book *The Conquest of Space*, text by Willy Ley and art by Bonestell, became a best-seller and an award-winner. Other books followed, as did science-fiction movies and more work for *Life*. The handful of men behind these efforts had a tremendous impact on the public view of spaceflight, transforming it from an impractical fantasy into a feasible possibility. The effect on the generation that would grow up to be the builders of the space program was massive. The words were by Willy Ley, or Arthur C. Clarke, or Wernher von Braun, or Robert A. Heinlein; the art was nearly always by Chesley Bonestell. Bonestell's work appears in many museums. He was one of the few artists who have had a one-man showing at the Smithsonian. He won numerous awards, including a Hugo in 1974 for his science and science-fiction art. He was alert and still working right up to his death, no small feat in itself for a man of 98. He will be missed. Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,pyramid}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 86 14:01 +0200 From: Eskil_Block_FOA1%QZCOM.MAILNET@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #187 It is not completely obvious whether the last remarks were made in earnest. In Swedish COM, however, whe have a debate called "THE NEW PLANET" based on a seried of articles now running in Swedish press "WORLDS TO WIN", after the famous Karl Marx quotation that the workers have only their chains to lose but a whole world to win: "Mankind now has only the chains of gravity to lose, but innumerable worlds to conquer". It seems that in the US of North America 250 000 people are organized space fans , e g in the L5 society. Among those who beleive in manned space-flights rather than automated sonds are T A Heppenheimer, the Swedish-descended James Edward Oberg and Brian O,Leary who is presumably of Irish stock. In North Europe, too, people seem a little put out at the developments in the Third World and ask themselves if technology will not eventually have to move out into space. Do anyone of you guys as they say in Texas, read what comes out of Stackpole, Harrisburg, Pa.? ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 28 Jul 1986 13:38:59-PDT From: fusci%nssg.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Ray Fusci TWO/E12 247-2745) Subject: Re: Tarot writing the book (I prefer live authors, myself) Here's an example: Carl Sherrell, _ARCANE_, Jove/HBJ, 1978, 0-515-04466-0 The following is from the preface: ...The book is composed of twenty-two chapters, each being titled after one of the cards in the ancient Tarot deck... It could be said, with some justification, that this fantasy was written by the cards themselves, since their symbols dictated the plot and the natures of the characters. ... In the beginning there was only a hint as to where the story might lead, yet I had faith that, as I moved from one card to the next, the Tarot would reveal a basic theme. To my delight, I found myself as much a spectator as those who will read _Arcane_ now. ... I'm not sure how I acquired this book. I certainly would never have bought it, after reading the preface. Ray Fusci ARPA: fusci@scotch.dec.com UUCP: ...!decwrl!scotch.dec.com!fusci ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Aug 86 1240-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #216 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 1 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 216 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Jul 86 17:37:42 GMT From: ubc-cs!andrews@caip.rutgers.edu (Jamie Andrews) Subject: Re: Aliens djo@ptsfd.UUCP (Dan'l Oakes) writes: >Humans meet the hosts aliens evolved in. Remember: a truly >successful parasite doesn't kill its host; it would wind up with no >source of food. My impression from _Aliens_ was that the alien life cycle was like that of some parasitic wasps: capture host organisms for young'uns to nosh on after they hatch. Wasps seem to get along fine while totally destroying their hosts -- I think this just means that the host populations of the aliens were productive enough to survive massive host-napping by the parasites. Jamie. ...!ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!ubc-cs!andrews ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jul 86 21:25:24 GMT From: jsloan@wright.EDU (John Sloan) Subject: ALIENS - Spoilers - A Second Viewing I saw ALIENS a second time and wanted to address a few issues. [1] Why didn't the Alien Mom rip Ripley's foot off? I watched carefully: the Alien had a very firm grip on Ripley's foot. Ripley's shoe came off. It happened in less than a second, so I can't be absolutely sure (at least until someone gets it on tape for a slo-mo examination) but it sure looks like her shoe flys off and the Alien falls through the hatch. [2] Could Ripley climb up and out of the Airlock? Nasty point, but if we assume that the bay was mostly sealed off from the rest of the ship (a reasonable assumption given that the drop ship had just docked) then a great deal of the atmosphere had already escaped. Ripley had to survive the low pressure left in the bay, fight the forces of the (now) fairly low pressure escaping air, and signal the lock to close and the bay to be repressurized. Okay, so its a big rationalization. TRIVIA: Remember in 2010, there is a magazine sitting at the nurse's station in the hospital/nursing home. It is either TIME or NEWSWEEK (no I don't remember which). The cover ostensibly had the U.S. President and the Soviet Premier pictured. Of course, it was actually Arthur C. Clarke and Stanley Kubrick, creators of 2001. A nice in-joke. In Ripley's cabin at Gateway there is a magazine. What was the magazine (I know the answer to this one) and who was pictured on the cover (have no idea). John Sloan Wright State University Computer Science and Engineering Dayton, OH 45435 (513) 873 - 2491, -2987 CSNET: jsloan@WRIGHT.EDU USENET: ...!cbosgd!wright!jsloan ARPANET: jsloan%wright@CSNET-RELAY DECNET LAN: wright::jsloan SMTP LAN: jsloan@wright ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jul 86 17:38:42 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: ALIENS (MY MY how you've GROWN!) wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes: > One minute you've got a cute li'l chest burster, the next you've > got a big lug on the lines of Arnold Schwarzenegger. Whaa? WHERE > DID THE BIOMASS COME FROM??? The original novelization had several scenes not in the movie. One of them was finding that the chestburster had gotten into the ship's stores, and eaten LOTS and LOTS of biomass. Not sure about the THING, but didn't it have similar opportunity? Something about sled dogs to munch on, stores missing, and the like? I'll agree that the fact that nobody wonders what aliens eat (as opposed to wondering how they reproduce) in the movies is a weak point. But not a major one, given that they only have a limited amount of time to spend explicating these problems on-screen. Wayne Throop ..!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jul 86 17:40:29 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: ALIENS (spoilers, explanations of some fine points) srt@ucla-cs.UUCP writes: > Just a couple of errors I noticed in ALIENS: Ha! If THESE are all you could find... Before I do my duty and refute these points one by several, I'll point out that the Alien movies are some of the very *best* from the standpoint of consistency and plausibility. MUCH better than Star Wars, Close Encounters of the Most Nauseating Kind, ET, the Star Trek movies, and so on and on. Yes, they have inconsistencies, but FAR, FAR fewer than is common in most SF movies. That said, let me nominate the armored vehicle for my choice as worst inconsistency in Aliens. Not enough ground clearance, too much overslung weight, inconsistent treatment of the strength of the armor. >What kind of Marines leave the ramp to a landing vehicle down in >hostile territory? Ones with a stupid commander, who says "the area is secure", and then overrides Ripley's vehement protest. He proves his incompetence in other scenes, so his stupidity is hardly inconsistent or implausible. >Hicks says the relief mission will show up in 17 days. So why use >cold sleep to make the trip? Many possible reasons. One of the simplest: sleeping people use less oxygen, get less bored. There might also be reasons related to whatever FTL technique is used. This, in fact, was one of the charming things about these movies. They didn't feel compelled to explain every blasted little detail. The classic comparison: would you expect a cop in a cop movie to pull his gun, and then spend precious screen time explaining how chemical powered slug-throwers work? >The android said the platform was too weak to support the landing >craft so he had to circle it around. But the landing craft was >shown hovering. Why not just hover off the platform? Winds were too unsteady there. He was hovering nearby in calmer air. This was explicit in the book, implicit in the movie (remember he almost crashed while picking up Ripley and Newt, despite his synthetic reflexes.) >Why doesn't Ripley load her guns before she leaves the landing >craft? Time pressure. She was trying to get to Newt before "impregnation". Otherwise, you have the problem of "why is Newt still alive and uninfected?" >Why doesn't she carry an extra clip or two for the gun? She did in the book. I didn't really notice in the movie, but I suspect she did there also. She used all her ammo, all her grenades, all her "napalm", plus several refills. She could only carry a finite amount, however. >How about a handgun? Weight. I'd rather carry extra ammo for the more potent weapons than carry weapons less likely to take out the opponents. >She was also pretty blithe about using the gun and the hand >grenades underneath the "thermal converters" - something she'd >warned others against earlier - which was presumably more dangerous >now that the plant was about to blow sky-high. Why would it be more dangerous to damage a cooling system that had already failed? >Why doesn't she subject Hicks and the girl to some kind of bio-scan >once they get back up in orbit to make sure they aren't carrying an >Alien embryo (eg, "sequel blindness": More Aliens). Who says she didn't? They can't show everything on-screen. >If the android is programmed with Asimov's laws, why does he try >the mumbledy-peg game with Hudson's hand? "There is no 'try'. There is only 'do', or 'do not'!" The point being that Bishop was fully aware that he wasn't going to harm Hudson. As to sequels, they don't need to overlook anything, any more than we needed a chestburster in the cat for Aliens. Wayne Throop ..!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 86 03:34:30 GMT From: peora!joel@caip.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: Aliens re:the explosion of the reactor From: Ray <CARON@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU> >One *BIG* argument that I have with the movie that unless they >supposedly don't use the same fuel that is now used it is *NEXT* >*TO* *IMPOSSIBLE* for a nuclear plant to explode as they had it. > > Now a melt down of a plant the size of the one in the movie would >do serious damage to the immediate area but there would be no >mushroom cloud. > > I expect some interesting responses to this. If I was listening correctly I think that the reactor was a FUSION not FISSION reactor. I have to admit that I don't think a fusion power reactor resembling our current technology could explode like that either, but you might propose some radically different technology in the future that might. An easier approach might be to postulate a power source that uses a few grams of antimatter in some sort of magnetic containment vessel. If the containment vessel fails.. WOOM. Of course this kind of power would be rather risky, so it might be reserved for orbiting power stations or planetary terraforming projects, where the only people exposed to the risk are the people being paid to take the risk. Of course, this doesn't explain where you get the antimatter. Joel Upchurch @ CONCURRENT Computer Corporation Southern Development Center 2486 Sand Lake Road/ Orlando, Florida 32809/ (305)850-1031 {decvax!ucf-cs, ihnp4!pesnta, vax135!petsd}!peora!joel ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 86 18:00:36 GMT From: rlgvax!bub@caip.rutgers.edu ( Mongo Mauler) Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE) brucec@tekgen.UUCP (Bruce Cheney) writes: > 4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space > ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them, > they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only > glimmer of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an > elevator. I believe that this is totally incorrect. The aliens did not pilot the first ship. The first ship was of another alien race whose pilot had been killed by infection and a burst chest, just like his much smaller human counterparts. I believe that this leaves us open to yet another sequel: since the ship was not one of their own there are obviously more of them out in space. Better yet, who knows where the home planet of these critters lies? I consider this to be a GREAT flick for sci-fi and scary movie fans! The holes in logic seem to have been made by pins rather than by post-hole diggers. All in all, a most satisfying experience. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 86 17:01:18 GMT From: jsloan@wright.EDU (John Sloan) Subject: Re: ALIENS - Spoilers - A Second Viewing > [2] Could Ripley climb up and out of the Airlock? Nasty point, but > if we assume that the bay was mostly sealed off from the rest of > the ship (a reasonable assumption given that the drop ship had > just docked) then a great deal of the atmosphere had already > escaped. Ripley had to survive the low pressure left in the bay, > fight the forces of the (now) fairly low pressure escaping air, > and signal the lock to close and the bay to be repressurized. > Okay, so its a big rationalization. Before I see any flames, I meant the most of atmosphere had already escaped as a result of her opening the lock door. Naturally we would assume that the bay had been repressurized after the drop ship had docked. After all, the people in tha bay didn't look blue or anything :-). John Sloan Wright State University Computer Science and Engineering Dayton, OH 45435 (513) 873 - 2491, -2987 CSNET: jsloan@WRIGHT.EDU USENET: ...!cbosgd!wright!jsloan ARPANET: jsloan%wright@CSNET-RELAY DECNET LAN: wright::jsloan SMTP LAN: jsloan@wright ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 86 09:04:06 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: James Horner/Aliens Actually, he may not have stolen the STII music-he wrote it! It may just sound similar. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28-JUL-1986 10:13 EDT From: Ronald A. Jarrell <JARRELLRA%VTVAX5.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> Subject: Aliens Went to see Aliens again, and watched for various things... To comment on a few things I've seen in the last couple of issues. 1) I think Lambert and Dallas in the first movie would have gotten the strong impression that they weren't native. It looked to me like they picked up these beasts somewhere and crashed when the crew got killed. 2) The marines were COLONIAL marines, not COMPANY marines. As for why they would leave everything behind, I offer 2 reasons a) Like the Starship Troopers, Everyone Jumps. They don't need a ship crew. In 57 years star travel has become a passenger occupation. Bishop is the only member of the Sulaco flight crew. Ripley would have probably been flight crew had she returned like the company wanted on old antique tugs, like the Class M Nostromo. b) They're cocky. "These marines have state of the art weapons. They can handle anything. Isn't that right Lt.?" "Yes, it is." 3) Queenies grip didn't break, Ripley's powerloader adaptor boot came off. Note that the powerloader has very big foot holders. And ripley wears very big boots while in it. I think that they just make an assortment of operator boots, and one, non-adjustable, hard to break, power loader foot. Seemed to be very big and velcro fastened. I'm not surprised the velcro broke. 4) Note that although the Sulaco was quite large, most of it seemed to be taken up by the common area, the weapons area, the hyper sleep room, probably a LARGE sickbay, and the huge hanger. Add stuff for the turrets and other weapons, and a large set of engines, and you are getting tight. It's a surface assault vehicle. It seems to also be armed for orbit ship to ship combat (why else have top mounted cannons?). For that it needs to be fast. So, rather than entertain the troops for up to a month at a time, providing barracks, etc. put them in hypersleep like sardines in a can. Amazing how much cargo space it reduces too. No need for a month of air, food, water, etc. 5) In the first book, I seem to remember that Dallas wasn't impregnated with another alien, he was becoming an egg. In fact there were a couple of egg-like things in the room with him. My hypothesis is that an adult alien can generate a queen egg on his own, in fact several, given the proper cues. (i.e. lack of a queen...) Those queens would then battle it out for control, and the winner would become literally the queen mother. Probably mating with the original warrior and killing him in the process since he'd be the only one not of her brood. Wonder how long aliens live if not being shot at? Remember, Ash said it was a perfect organism. Seems to have "reconfigured" itself to human environments and hosts. I doubt those giant aliens were enough like us that the embryos could work without changes. Nor was our atmosphere mix all that similar. (Certainly Acheron's wasn't back then, even around the plants.) I can't see a p.o. needing a queen and not being able to make one. 6) The facehuggers didn't eat through the storage canisters cause they were in stasis. (Yea, I know, how come they can move? Maybe movie stasis is different... or maybe only the glass is in a stasis field :-)) 7) Interesting point in the book. Ripley had a daughter about newt's age that died of a (I think) heart attack in her old age before ripley returned. She was naturally very attracted to surrogate daughter. (now a real one). By promising newt she wouldn't leave, and then going after her, she was not only saving newt, but she was also fulfilling her promise to her daughter to be back for her birthday. (as she said in the book, boy, did I blow that one.) 8) I wonder about those grenades. At times they seemed to barely have a punch, and at other times it looked like it was a tactical nuke! Like in the tunnel, when Gorman and Vasquez killed themselves.. I realize it was a confined channelled space, but come on. The fireball almost reached the Heros. Hmm.. This got a bit longer then I expected. Oh well. Ron ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Aug 86 1300-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #217 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 1 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 217 Today's Topics: Films - Videos, Television - Star Trek (6 msgs) & Max Headroom (2 msgs) & The Prisoner Miscellaneous - Tarot in Books & TUCKER Awards ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 28 Jul 86 23:47:30 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: request for movies in video stores wood%genral.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM lists >Movies that I have NOT found at local video stores but may be in >yours: > >Ghostbusters >Star Trek III These 2 are certainly available. We rented them from a place near us (South Laguna, Orange County, Calif). I'm sure I've seen others from the list you gave, but I won't say until I know definitely. I'm delighted to see 2001 listed as available. That is my favourite movie bar absolutely none, and that includes a number that I like very much indeed. For those of you who endure the cable companies to the extent of getting movie channels (Home Box Office, the Movie Channel, ON, Group W, etc.) several of these films are shown there. I have seen Dark Crystal, Ladyhawke, Dragonslayer, Star Wars I, and Star Trek II, not to mention the ??? film (whose name I can't remember either, nor would I really go to the effort of doing so). Dune has appeared on them, and Mad Max -- Beyond the Thunderdrome is playing on HBO this month. So if you feel like paying the rental fees, and live somewhere where the cable companies are actually forced to provide a decent signal, this may be for you. Certainly the picture quality that's transmitted (if it arrives intact) is quite a bit better than what's on the videotapes. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 86 19:50:49 GMT From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) Subject: Re: Re: Star Trek new TV series [Star Trek I] > Which is precisely why I've never heard anyone say that the > Special Longer Edition of STTMP one can get on videotape is a bad > movie or that they didn't like it. The version of STTMP that > reached theaters back in December, 1979 was a very poor edit of an > otherwise good movie. They cut out very much of the > Kirk/Spock/McCoy interaction and washed out their > characterizations in the process. If you haven't seen the Special > Longer Edition, then you haven't seen the real "Star Trek: The > Motion Picture". Well, for your info, the Special Longer Edition of STTMP one can get on videotape is a bad movie or, I didn't like it. I found that they really didn't add much more to the movie. When I heard about 12 additional minutes, I was quick to assume that they'd add a missing scene or something, but they didn't. I had so hoped that they'd have included the scene where Kirk argues to take command of the Enterprise, but Noooooooooo! They probably didn't want to pay the actor who played the unseen admiral. What they did do was similar to the little snippets you saw in STTWOK, on ABC. They just padded out certain scenes with a few extra seconds of unseen footage. They were easy to detect, as they were of a differing picture and audio quality than the rest of the movie. Also, they had a real blunder in the one scene they did add: Kirk suits up and McCoy pleads with him to consider the consequences of going after Spock. If you have the astute eye I do (:-), of course), you'll notice that the suit Kirk puts on IS NOT the same as we see him in outside of the Enterprise! What they should have done to make the tape a win was to edit out the slow passage through V'Ger (or at least a lot of it). I could have done without the Ooh-Ahh-Oh looks from the crew, too. As a side comment, a Turkish friend of mine saw the film. She had seen the series back in Turkey (this might have been really funny, seeing the show with all the voices in Turkish :-). When the movie was over, she asked me how I could watch such sh**. Hmmm, should I answer that? :-) Jonathan D. Trudel arpa: trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4,pyrnj,pyramid}!topaz!trudel ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 86 04:19:31 GMT From: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu (Catherine Ariel Wolffe) Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@su-sierra.arpa> >There will be an all new cast for the series, with current major >characters doing cameo appearances and current minor characters >doing entire shows as guests. Well, they can have the tv and movie rights to the Star Trek RPG campaign characters created here in Lexington. It shows a whole new side of the Federetion. Our Captain is an engineer who has a running battle with amphetimines (comes from her spending 30 to 60 hours trying to fix the ship during combat conditions). The navigator is a catian hooked on 20th century Terran culture (imagine a cabin decked out in lava lamps, black light posters, and a stereo which can shake the ship). The helmsman is a little "zealous" in combat (she wears a Rising Sun headband and 1000 Knot Belt on the bridge). The science officer is a Native American who cares more for his weaponry than he does for his job (his bed is made out of Kligon rifles with firing pins removed - and built by the Captain). The doctor makes extra money as a pusher (ever wonder where the medical supplies on the captured ships go? ), and the nurse is a nymphomaniac who is legendary in the Federation (she could only increase her status by becoming bisexual - and she is considering it). Our head engineer is an android of some sort. There is a pacifistic Kzinti in security. We have caused more damage to our ships than the Klingons, Romulans, Tholians, and pirates combined. Our only true success was the time we were sent to destroy an experimental ship which the Orions captured (brass got smart and had has blow up a ship. We had no problems) This could make for some good tv. It can't be any worse then what is on now. ;-) Catherine Ariel Wolffe ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 86 10:38:51 -0500 From: George Lindeberg <gel@mitre-bedford.ARPA> Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series chabot@3d.dec.com writes: > This is also why I hated "The Search for the Director": Kirk's > son, one of the symbols of change and future, gets trashed, so > that the Vulcan Vestal Virgins can resurrect Spock from the > guillotine. Bah. Why is it only the old characters are redeemed > and continue? David did not die to save Spock; he attacked the Klingon just as Savik (?sp) was about to be killed. Recall that the Klingon walked behind Spock and David and then paused behind Savik and clicked open the knife. It was at this point that David jumped the Klingon. This is also quite clear in the book version of ST III. I think that Savik qualifies as one of the "new" characters. George Lindeberg ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 86 19:29:52 GMT From: omen!caf@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX) Subject: Re: Re: Star Trek new TV series [Star Trek I] trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) writes: >What they should have done to make the tape a win was to edit out >the slow passage through V'Ger (or at least a lot of it). Many times when I play my LaserDisc of 2001, I play the Blue Danube sequence (earth->station, station->moon) and nothing else. Likewise, I sometimes play the "V'ger approach/flyby" because I like that part. An "outer space" classical music video, if you will. I'd like to have a good copy of Zardoz to enjoy its Beethoven's 7th music video as well. Having seen the original STTMP a number of times as well as having read the book, it wasn't until the 1.5 version that the significance of Ilia became apparent. STTMP was a serious science fiction movie, addressing questions of a possible computer-aided human evolution, an interesting topic in 1980. The 2nd and 3rd movies are, by comparision, mere space operas that don't raise any particularly interesting philosophical issues. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 86 13:00:42 GMT From: ukecc!edward@caip.rutgers.edu (Edward C. Bennett) Subject: Re: Re: Star Trek new TV series [Star Trek I] rjnoe@riccb.UUCP (Roger J. Noe) writes: >Which is precisely why I've never heard anyone say that the Special >Longer Edition of STTMP one can get on videotape is a bad movie or >that they didn't like it. The version of STTMP that reached >theaters back in December, 1979 was a very poor edit of an >otherwise good movie. They cut out very much of the >Kirk/Spock/McCoy interaction and washed out their characterizations >in the process. If you haven't seen the Special Longer Edition, >then you haven't seen the real "Star Trek: The Motion Picture". This is a stupid question. Where can I get a copy of STTMP on video cassette? There don't seem to be any places in Lexington to buy video tapes, just rent them. (And VHS at that. Yuk!) Surely there are mail-order places for tapes... Edward C. Bennett UUCP: ihnp4!cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!edward ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jul 86 03:13:14 GMT From: linus!sdl@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven D. Litvintchouk) Subject: Re: Re: Star Trek new TV series [Star Trek I] >they had a real blunder in the one scene they did add: Kirk suits >up and McCoy pleads with him to consider the consequences of going >after Spock. If you have the astute eye I do (:-), of course), >you'll notice that the suit Kirk puts on IS NOT the same as we see >him in outside of the Enterprise! Actually, there was even a worse blunder. They also added the scene where Kirk actually exits the Enterprise to go after Spock. You see Kirk going out of the Enterprise airlock. But they never added the special effects matte of the rest of the Enterprise, so you actually see the movie set hardware (woodwork, lights, etc.) surrounding and behind the Enterprise airlock. Steven Litvintchouk ARPA: sdl@mitre-bedford UUCP: ...{decvax,genrad,philabs,security,utzoo}!linus!sdl ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jul 86 01:39:43 GMT From: oliveb!gnome@caip.rutgers.edu (Gary Traveis) Subject: Re: Good old Max again From: JJL8733%RITVAXC.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA > Oh by the way folks. That so called M-M-M-Max Box is called a > crosshatch generator. Anyone know what that means? I believe that, in the movie, Big Time TV (the people that first put Max on the air) got billed for a crosshatch generator but could never actually figure out where (or what) it was. So, in order to get their tax accounting to match, they called the (supposedly free but probably stolen) Max Box a crosshatch generator. Am I way off base with this or what?? From the David Letterman show: Dave: Can I ask you something? Do you have a plate in your head!? Max: I have a whole set of china! (If you ever see the movie, count how many times the number 42 is used throughout the film...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29-JUL-1986 11:34 EDT From: Ronald A. Jarrell <JARRELLRA%VTVAX3.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> Subject: cross-hatch generator (Max Headroom) A cross hatch generator is used in testing/aligning T.V.'s.. Generates all sorts of neat color patterns. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 86 15:14:25 GMT From: hadron!klr@caip.rutgers.edu (Kurt L. Reisler) Subject: Re: The Prisoner hsu@eneevax.UUCP (Dave Hsu) writes: >Does anybody remember the engine block serial number quoted in the >episode "Many Happy Returns"? From watching a recording of "Many Happy Returns": Lotus Super 7 KAR120C Dark Green body Bright Yellow nose piece Engine Number 461034TZ (try that one on your trivia buffs!) As a side note, #6's flat number in London is: #1 Kurt Reisler ..!seismo!hadron!klr ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 29 Jul 1986 10:17:33-PDT From: sharp%dairy.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Re: Has this been done? Regarding Derek Zahn's idea for a story structured around the Tarot: Who cares if it's been done? The question is, is it a good idea? What if Beethoven had decided that he couldn't do symphonies because Haydn and Mozart had already covered it? If you get to the point where plot, characters, etc, all seemed to be working together well only to have the underlying structure removed because it's been done, well then figure out another way to reveal the structure. The structure will still be there, and still be solid and if you're facing copyright infringement or something (which would purely amaze me) you can twiddle things in fairly major ways and the foundation will still be granite. Don't use this as an excuse to put off writing. Don UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dairy.dec.com!sharp ARPA: sharp%dairy.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 86 13:47:48 CDT From: Rich Zellich <zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA> Subject: TUCKER Awards Final Ballot for SF-Lovers readers T U C K E R A W A R D S A new award was instituted last year to recognize the activities of that heretofore unsung group of people known as SF convention partiers. Every award must, of course, have a nickname; the official nickname of the Award for Excellence in Science Fiction Convention Partying is the "Tucker". The first two years awards are sponsored and administered by the St. Louis in '88 Worldcon Bid Committee, and future awards will be administered by a related group. The awards will be nominated and voted on by members of Czarkon 4 (St. Louis' "adult relaxicon"), and the rest of SF party fandom via St. Louis in '88 bid parties and any fanzines or SF club newsletters willing to reprint the nomination form and/or this final ballot. [**This includes SF-LOVERS**] There are 3 awards: 1 each for SF Professional (writer, editor, or dealer), SF Artist, and SF Fan. Couples or groups are eligible as a single nominee. Any SF convention partier over the age of 21 is eligible, but nominees this year must be willing to attend the presenting convention if they win. Winners are not eligible for re-nomination for a period of 5 years; losing nominees are eligible again the following year. The 1985 winners were: Special Grand Master Award: Wilson "Bob" Tucker SF Professional: Bob Cornett & Kevin Randle SF Artist: David Lee Anderson SF Fan: Glen Boettcher & Nancy Mildebrandt The design of the physical award is a full bottle of Beam's Choice bourbon mounted on a base; the base has a plaque with the year, award name, and the winner's name. An instant tradition was begun in 1985: the winners received their awards full, but took them home from the convention empty (many self- sacrificing volunteers helped empty the awards). To vote for the 1986 Tucker Awards, write a number from 1 to 4 in the spaces below by the names in each category, 1 being your first choice and 4 being your last choice in EACH CATEGORY. After marking your ballot, detach it along the dotted line and mail it to TUCKER AWARDS, c/o St. Louis in '88, PO Box 1058, St. Louis, MO 63188. Photocopied, mimeographed, hand-printed, or typed equivalents of this ballot are acceptable. [*Network people may also send electronic facsimiles to "zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA"*] VOTING DEADLINE IS 1 NOVEMBER 1986 1986 TUCKER AWARD BALLOT PRO TUCKER: ____ Ed Bryant ____ Glen Cook ____ Andrew J. Offutt ____ Dick Spelman ARTIST TUCKER: ____ Keith Berdak ____ Joan Hanke-Woods ____ Dell Harris ____ Larry Tucker FAN TUCKER: ____ Chris Powell ____ David Rogan ____ Dick Spelman ____ Nancy Tucker Small ($1 or less) donations will be gratefully accepted to defray award expenses, but ARE NOT REQUIRED in order to nominate or to vote. Tucker Award donations will N O T be used to support the St. Louis in '88 Worldcon Bid. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Aug 86 1318-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #218 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 2 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 218 Today's Topics: Films - Bladerunner (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Jul 86 16:58:55 GMT From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton) Subject: Blade Runner doesn't measure up. Re: do androids dream ... I've seen Blade Runner called a great classic of S.F. in this group, and it just doesn't measure up. The following are important in a great SF classic: 1) The premise should be at least reasonable BR's androids are so like people you can't tell them apart. In a world so paranoid about them that it doesn't allow them on the Earth, why would this be done? It makes sense for whoredroids, but for mining robots? The society depicted in BR would have insisted that the replicants be bright blue or something. Remember that this society mandated the short life span, since it was possible to make them immortal from a technical p.o.v. A lesser complaint (lots of SF movies get away with this one) is that the technology for complete duplication of human beings (with superior powers) doesn't really make sense in the time-frame described. 2) If it has SFX or futuristic sets, they must be good This is BR's main positive point. Good sets and effects, a well done and original portrayal of a dismal future. I contend that these good sets impressed some people so much that they ignored the other major faults. Note that BR's main shining point is in an area that a great SF film doesn't even have to posess. SFX have been equated with SF in the general public's mind, but they're wrong. 3) Production values should be good to excellent. BR is on the ball here. Plain old good moviemaking is important, although films like "Dark Star" are an interesting exception. 4) The plot should be superb BR has a good hunt plot, but not a superb one. 5) If dialogue is an important part of the story it should be superb and entertaining. Flat on the face for BR. The dialogue is miserable, campy and boring. If it weren't essential to the plot, this might be excused. Camp is only for camp films. This was not one. Note that this is the major disqualifier for classic status. No film is perfect, but a classic film can't score a "bad" in any category. The worst it should get is a "fair." 6) Human beings should be done well, with real characters. Acting in BR is credible. The characters (of the humans) get a "fair" from me. The story attempted too much scope, and didn't have time to show much depth to the characters. 7) SF should be good and integral to several facets of the film. If it's going to be an SF classic instead of a film classic, this must be the case. BR's replicants are not SF. Some people have credited this movie for making the androids so human. This is the problem. The story centered around the replicants having a full set of human emotions. This changed it from a story about androids to a story about slavery. Had their been an AI element it might have been SF, but instead the SF was used only as a vehicle. The setting is reasonable SF, but that's not enough when the plot pretends to be, but isn't 8) You should leave the movie feeling the movie achieved its goal superbly. I sure didn't. What was the goal? If the goal was to show me images of a grim future, it succeeded, but why then did they put a soundtrack on it? If the goal was to make me feel something for the replicants, it failed because they didn't make any sense. Why were they so perfect? Why did they have the meaningless programmed lifespan? Was the goal to tell an interesting story? I've seen Frankenstein enough, thanks. Re-doing the oldest cliche in SF does not a classic make. This point #8 is perhaps the most important. It is point #8 that critics review in the paper the next day. Point number 8 can almost excuse all the other points, because that controls how you feel coming out. Sometimes failure on #8 can be the fault of the viewer, not the moviemaker - "2001" is an example. "Star Wars," on the other hand, had such a "Damn, what a good movie!" feel to it that even space-opera haters rated it highly. "Dark Star" succeeds so well at its goal that a $45,000 budget (or whatever) doesn't detract. "Back to the Future" is so funny that the fact it is only a "fair" time travel story slips your mind. A movie that fails #8 can win "best sets", "best actor" and other awards, but it can never win "best picture." Now, in reply: > Now hold on just one minute, the "Frankenstein" story is one of > the oldest and most revered of sf legends, and is certainly not > over told, particularly in the case of Blade Runner. It is also > reasonable to suppose that future robots will be made in the > likeness of their, hopefully, human creators; this being one of > the most adaptable, flexible and dextorous automotive forms known > to man. No, "Frankenstein" has been told far too often. So often that the public now views it as the natural course of events for creation to destroy creator. Where does this concept come from? Mankind has envisioned many types of gods in its history, but where (in reality, not fiction) has there ever been a culture that wishes to kill their god? I fear directors think that if they base their plot on a classic SF story like Frankenstein's monster, their film will become a classic film. No dice. I have already noted above why the totally human robots don't make any sense. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 86 20:56:28 GMT From: metzger@heathcliff.columbia.edu (Perry Metzger) Subject: Re: Blade Runner doesn't measure up. (LONG) brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes: >I've seen Blade Runner called a great classic of S.F. in this >group, and it just doesn't measure up. Before starting to counterflame let me say that I love the movie. It is one of my favorite movies of all time. > The following are important in a great SF classic: Whoa. Who said it was a great SF classic? I think it is a great movie, period. The fact that it has an SF element is only the vehicle for the movie to convey it's theme, not an end in itself. But I will play ball for a moment and answer your points. >1) The premise should be at least reasonable > BR's androids are so like people you can't tell them apart. In > a world so paranoid about them that it doesn't allow them on the > Earth, why would this be done? It makes sense for whoredroids, > but for mining robots? The society depicted in BR would have > insisted that the replicants be bright blue or something. "'More Human than Human' is our motto." -- Tyrell So what is your point? A minor plot problem, in your mind? Most great stories would have been completely different if something slightly different was involved. What if Anna Karenina was on another train and hadn't met Vronksky? It is pretty meaningless to ask something like that unless it really glares out, like the "idiot plot" in a mystery, where everything would be obvious if the idiot wasn't lying for no good reason. And remember, even if you changed their appearance, they would still be human inside. > A lesser complaint (lots of SF movies get away with this one) is > that the technology for complete duplication of human beings > (with superior powers) doesn't really make sense in the > time-frame described. Did everyone throw away their copies of 1984 because Big Brother wasn't there to great us on 1/1/84 with telescreens in hand? >2) If it has SFX or futuristic sets, they must be good > This is BR's main positive point. Good sets and effects, a well > done and original portrayal of a dismal future. I contend that > these good sets impressed some people so much that they ignored > the other major faults. Note that BR's main shining point is in > an area that a great SF film doesn't even have to posess. SFX > have been equated with SF in the general public's mind, but > they're wrong. Hardly futuristic. Remember that the setting for Blade Runner has been called "2019 meets the 1920's". The special effects are there only to give flavor, as they should be in any good movie. There is no dependance on effects, so far as I can see. No one was thrilled out of their mind when they saw a flying car or two. >4) The plot should be superb > BR has a good hunt plot, but not a superb one. Hunt plot? It isn't a hunt plot. The fact that the main character is hunting down the replicants is just the medium that carries the story forward. Blade Runner can hardly be called a real "mystery" or chase story. It doesn't try to be. >5) If dialogue is an important part of the story it should be >superb and entertaining. > Flat on the face for BR. The dialogue is miserable, campy and > boring. In what movie is dialogue unimportant besides the odd porno flick or Miami Vice episode (from it's first season). By the way, did YOU see the same movie? I found the dialogue to perfectly suited to it's surroundings. Blade Runner's LA is bleak and desolate, and so most of what is said is bleak. But tell me, you really thought that Roy's death scene was campy? That it's dialogue was boring? In my opinion, those few moments spoke more to the condition of man than anything else I ever saw in a movie. (Well, maybe "It's A Wonderful Life", but then again I am a Capra fan.) > If it weren't essential to the plot, this might be excused. > Camp is only for camp films. This was not one. I saw no camp. Give some examples if you would. > Note that this is the major disqualifier for classic status. No > film is perfect, but a classic film can't score a "bad" in any > category. The worst it should get is a "fair." By this time in reading through your list of arguments it becomes apparent that instead of "Feeling" a movie, you are going through a mental checklist when you see it. That isn't the way a good movie is supposed to be judged. A good movie speaks to you, it moves you. >6) Human beings should be done well, with real characters. > Acting in BR is credible. The characters (of the humans) get a > "fair" from me. The story attempted too much scope, and didn't > have time to show much depth to the characters. The acting was very well done in my opinion. The script didn't give vast opportunities for superb acting the way a Shakespeare play does, but then again it isn't a Shakespeare play, it is Blade Runner. >7) SF should be good and integral to several facets of the film. Why? That makes no sense. The SF is a way to get the ideas across better, not an end in itself at any level. You ought to read Ursula Le Guin's introduction to "The Left Hand of Darkness". She has quite a lot to say about it. Then again, you might not like her writing, either. > If it's going to be an SF classic instead of a film classic, > this must be the case. Oh, you want it to be an SF classic. Being a classic of all time and all genre's isn't good enough for you. > BR's replicants are not SF. Have you seen replicants running around lately? No? Maybe that makes them SF. But what does it matter, really? > Some people have credited this movie for making the androids so > human. This is the problem. The story centered around the > replicants having a full set of human emotions. This changed it > from a story about androids to a story about slavery. Was it supposed to be a story about androids? Who is interested in androids? They don't exist. But human emotions, those I can relate to. They have meaning for me. > Had their been an AI element it might have been SF, but instead > the SF was used only as a vehicle. The setting is reasonable SF, > but that's not enough when the plot pretends to be, but isn't When is SF not a vehicle? When it is a bad SF movie, of course. All great fiction of any sort invents circumstances that convey the plot. What you imply is that by setting a story in, say, New York, it must be a story ABOUT New York, or a New York story, etc. Some writers choose to make the circumstances more important than others. In some, the circumstances are everything. But with few exceptions such stories are uninteresting. The best of SF does just what you say it should not, which is use SF only as a vehicle. I am sorry to say that you will not find a story about how to build a replicant or what are the essentials of advanced biological engineering if you watch Blade Runner. If you want to know about such things, wait until they happen or invent them. They are not the primary purpose of the film. >8) You should leave the movie feeling the movie achieved its goal >superbly. > I sure didn't. What was the goal? I bet you look at impressionist paintings and say "but what does it mean", don't you? A great work of fiction stands on its own. It need not tell you what it is trying to do. It should simply speak to you, and move you. Blade Runner moved me. I walked away touched by it. > If the goal was to show me images of a grim future, it succeeded, > but why then did they put a soundtrack on it? You went in and all you got out was images of a grim future with a snazy sound track? > If the goal was to make me feel something for the replicants, it > failed because they didn't make any sense. Roy's death scene did absolutely nothing to you? You felt nothing inside? The whole movie could be justified as a means of getting to that scene, although it wasn't just that. > Why were they so perfect? If they were perfect, why did they get hunted down? Who said they were perfect? They were HUMAN, although no one noticed. That was something you seem to have missed. > Why did they have the meaningless programmed lifespan? Prehaps you didn't pay any attention to the explanation. Well, it was there, and if you missed it even when it was spelled out for you, well, that's your problem isn't it. > Was the goal to tell an interesting story? I've seen > Frankenstein enough, thanks. Re-doing the oldest cliche in SF > does not a classic make. It was NOT a Frankenstein remake. It was not the tale of a monster made by man. It was the tale of how men can repress each other without paying attention to another's feelings. The replicants were not monsters, they were victims. > This point #8 is perhaps the most important. It is point #8 > that critics review in the paper the next day. Point number 8 > can almost excuse all the other points, because that controls > how you feel coming out. Sometimes failure on #8 can be the > fault of the viewer, not the moviemaker - "2001" is an example. > "Star Wars," on the other hand, had such a "Damn, what a good > movie!" feel to it that even space-opera haters rated it highly. > "Dark Star" succeeds so well at its goal that a $45,000 budget > (or whatever) doesn't detract. "Back to the Future" is so funny > that the fact it is only a "fair" time travel story slips your > mind. > > A movie that fails #8 can win "best sets", "best actor" and > other awards, but it can never win "best picture." I came out of the movie the first time I saw it emotionally drained. I thought "Damn, THAT WAS A GOOD MOVIE!". Prehaps you didn't feel it. Luckily, you don't control the film industry. >No, "Frankenstein" has been told far too often. So often that the >public now views it as the natural course of events for creation to >destroy creator. I didn't see it as a Frankenstein movie. The "monsters" don't kill because they don't know what killing is. They kill because they are afraid, terrified, of what we have done to them, and they are desparate to escape. "Quite an experience living in fear, isn't it. Thats what it means to be a slave." -- Roy >Where does this concept come from? Mankind has envisioned many >types of gods in its history, but where (in reality, not fiction) >has there ever been a culture that wishes to kill their god? I wouldn't mind getting a slug out at the almighty :-). But seriously, I don't see that theme played out in the movie at all. The mere fact that Roy kills Tyrell doesn't make that the movie. And remember, in a good Frankenstein movie, the creator gets killed at the start. Tyrell is the last person that Roy kills, not the first. Maybe they were trying to say that it is the reverse of the Frankenstein theme :-). >I fear directors think that if they base their plot on a classic SF >story like Frankenstein's monster, their film will become a classic >film. No dice. Well, killer robots kind of died out after the "some forms of knowledge are forbidden us" theme of early SF went away (thank god). There havent been any such films in some time (don't flame me if I am wrong, thank you.) They certainly aren't poplular. >I have already noted above why the totally human robots don't make >any sense. Why don't they make sense. You are a robot in some sense, and you are human. Well, I really stretched this one out. Sorry, but I just had to get it out of my system. I just want to close by saying that I think it was one of the best films ever made. I loved it, always will love it, etc. Perry Metzger Metzger@heathcliff.columbia.edu ...!seismo!columbia!heathcliff!metzger ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Aug 86 1334-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #219 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 2 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 219 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (12 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Jul 86 17:45:48 GMT From: ubc-cs!andrews@caip.rutgers.edu (Jamie Andrews) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #200 acw@ELEPHANT-BUTTE.SCRC.Symbolics.COM writes: >I'm surprised that Sarima couldn't translate "Ungoliant". If >"Cirith Ungol" is "the Pass of the Spider", and "Iant Iaur" is "Old >Bridge", mightn't "Ungol-iant" be "Old Spider"? *gak* iant = bridge iaur = old (as in "Iarwain Ben-Adar", "Oldest and Fatherless") ungoliant = spider-bridge? Probably not -- as I suggested earlier, probably Ungoliant was a name derived from something else, and if spiders were all Ungoliant's descendants (as JRRT suggests) "ungol" was derived from "ungoliant". Jamie. ...!ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!ubc-cs!andrews ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jul 86 01:28:32 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: Radagast choosing Middle Earth robert@weitek.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) writes: >is descended from a "renegade" Maia; one who found Middle-Earth so >fascinating that he forsook his duties to live there. Tom Bombadil >is another who falls into this category. For that matter, so do >Sauron, Saruman, the Balrog of Moria, Shelob, and Radagast the >Brown. Stanley Friesen replies: > No, Radagast the Brown is one of the five Istari who were *sent* >to Middle Earth in the Third Age to combat Sauron. I think he is pointing out that Radagast pretty well abandoned his duties, preferring a gentle life among the birds and beasts to the war against Sauron. He served honestly and willingly when Gandalf or Saruman asked, but he was no mover of events himself. I think it's fair to say that he dropped from the ranks of the Istari. I do find it a little hard, though, to picture Sauron, the Balrog, or Shelob "forsaking duties"; nor did they share Radagast's healthy delight in Middle Earth. Alastair Milne PS. It occurs to me that saying that two such powerful characters were comparable because they were both Maiar may be no more valid than saying a guppy is comparable to a great white shark because they're both fish. There are fish and fish, and there are Maiar and Maiar. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 86 14:45 +0200 From: Eskil_Block_FOA1%QZCOM.MAILNET@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #190 This was a very long message but also one highly tempting to comment. There are two main themes: the world of Tolkien and his thoughts on the relations between essence and power, and much older themes that he wove into his story. I will mainly comment on the second. There are much older rings of power than Tolkiens - e g the Niebelungen ring, which appears in Wagner, but goes back to old Germanic stories. Many believe this whole theme to be bound up with the magic that barbaric peoples attibuted to Roman military technology and discipline; in the Teutoburger Forest Hermann or Arminius smote the 17th, 18th and 19th legions under Varus, who subsequently committed suicide. The sword in the stone according to the same interpretation was again Roman military technology; and king Arthur the captain of a small band of Welshmen and Britons using the remnants of cavalry training to smite the Saxons. I was always stricken by Tolkien,s choice of names he being such a great scholar in languages and history. The names of elves and their language point, as you have remarked, westwards, to Celtic and perhaps even Basque sources, to Avalon (which is in the far west of Cornwall) and to Atlantis. Now Atlantis is by some thought to represent the culture of Crete before 1400 BC, by others to symbolize the great Megalithe culture of Western Europe before the indoeuropeans entered about the year 2000 BC, when the military use of the horse was understood in what is now Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, White russia and the Ukraine. It therefore seems to me that the Elves are in their essence the peoples that habitated Western Europe before 2000 BC, the men are the Indoeuropeans (with a Northern or Germanic and a Southern or Latin branch, called the Rohan (a noble French family) and Gondor (which even has a hint of India in it). On the other hand all evil seems to come out of Asia, with Mongol or Turkish names; Tolkien was certainly no admirer of Stalin or Attila the Hun. The Rings may even be something else, namely the successive gains of human technology, such as the hunting skills, the agricultural ones, the handicrafts, eventually to be superseded by the One Ring, which I take to be the governmental use of technology for miliary purposes. It is natural to draw a parallel with the books of C S Lewis, including That Hideous Strength, where nuclear power and nuclear bombs "contaminate" an Oxford college. Those Inklings where of that idealistic Permit me to add a purely local variation on this theme. In the last century Finland, as in the 18th century the Baltic countries and Pomerania, were taken from Sweden by tsarist Russia. In Finland, particularly, occupation was far less rigid than by the Bolsheviks of today, and a great measure of cultural freedom existed. Partly because of the close vincinity to both capitals (Stockholm and St Petersburg) a great cultural revival took place, both in Swedish and Finnish. In particular a Swediush-speaking professor of history published a major work by serializing it in the leading newspaper, on Swedish-Finnish history from 1632 to 1772, the intention being to extend it still futher, but the author died. The main theme is the struggle between two great families, one nobilized and the other fighting nobility from a farming, trading or clerical life. The noble family posssesses a ring of power "The Ring of the King", which is supposed to have been forged in the 14th century, under a rare conjunctin of planets Jupiter, Mars and Saturn. The possessor will excel in WHATEVER HIS NATURE DEMANDS, but he will lose it utterly when swearing a false oath (meineid). The ring also hardens the heart of the bearer. It seems to me that the forging of a ring implies technological progress (whether astrological or military) but that its possession implies command rather than innovation of such powers. The use as well as the range of power involved in the forging will depend on the nature of the individual or people that partakes in thre process; the moral problems, however, remain quite unchanged. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 86 15:07 +0200 From: Eskil_Block_FOA1%QZCOM.MAILNET@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #193 El may mean star in Elvish, but in Hebrew it is certainly one of the lesser names of God himself. As to the nature of Gandalf etc one is reminded of the speculations of C S Lewis concerning angels and semi-gods. The Inklings, very well read both in classical and Nordic lore found it hard to believe that God had cheated those peoples permitting them to rever the classic gods, Jupiter, Wotan etc. They had to exist therefore, even to rule the planets named after them. In the Biblical language they are angels, some of them benevolent others fallen or evil. In old tales, some animals can speak. They convey messages and feelings, 'but have never to take moral stands, so they can not be regarded as people. The Orcs, I take it, symbolize first of all the peoples of Central Asia, and as such are our enemies, but not necessarily evil. They serve the evil masters simply because these masters are kings and despots of Asia, a continent where individualism and democracy (in the view of the inklings and their generation) has not yet taken root. Morally, therefore, they can be compared to the Classic peoples, before they met Christiantity - after Death they will go not to Hell but to Dante's purgatorio. The Nazguls, on the other hand, did have a choice and are therefore, in this world picture, hell-bound. Whether angels can die - I do not think so. They can be imprisoned though, and put through mental torture. As to the Balrogs, I feel they can be a kind of robots, electronically steered tanks... ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 86 15:25 +0200 From: Eskil_Block_FOA1%QZCOM.MAILNET@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #191 This discussion seems strange to me, as though the debaters thought there was a real series of events, that Tolkien could partly guess, partly collect from documents and interviews. In my mind, Tolkien creates, partly consciously and partly in his unconscious, the stories from much older bits of pieces of real or imagined events, forging them partly to his ends, following partly an inner logic. The Elves, I Think, must partly be seen as grown-ups with all sorts of sorrows and misfortunes and faults that remain partly obscured to the hobbits, who are in comparison like naive children. I like to think of the Elves as French or Italians, Jews or Armenians, with a long history of culture and suffering compared to the naive Hobbits, perhaps residents of some peaceful corner of Europe who escaped war for 180 years now. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 86 17:57 +0200 From: Eskil_Block_FOA1%QZCOM.MAILNET@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #200 Ys I think was not a country but a city. In the Southern Baltic there are similar tales of another drowned city - Vineta. I fully agree that such stories may have some truth to them. At Norwich in England there is a museum on the sunken lands of Northern Europe. Of course, in the North of Sweden and Finland, new lands rise out of the sea instead. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jul 86 05:55:22 GMT From: ucdavis!ccrrick@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Heli) Subject: Re: Hobbits et al. > After due consideration, I have to conclude that Beorn was one of > the Maiar. Nope. From _The_Letters_of_J._R._R._Tolkien_, p. 178, "Though a skin-changer and no doubt a bit of magician, Beorn was a Man." As to the classification of Shelob, I thought the following passage from p. 81 (hardcover) of _The_Silmarillion_ was fairly indicative: "For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she [Ungoliant] mated with them, and devoured them; and even after Ungoliant herself departed, and went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world, her offspring abode there and wove their hideous webs." rick heli UUCP: ... {ucbvax,lll-crg}!ucdavis!ccrrick INTERNET: ucdavis!ccrrick@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jul 86 06:10:13 GMT From: ucdavis!ccrrick@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Heli) Subject: Re: Tolkien's blue wizards > Does anyone have any references to the Blue Wizards in LOTR? I > think they were the Istari/Maia (sp?) called Curunir & Olorin. I > also think they went into the East of Middle Earth. See Unfinished Tales and The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien. Their names were Alatar and Pallando. > I'm designing a board wargame of the Lord of the Rings; I want to > include alternative monsters/objects/characters that the > Fellowship of the Ring could have met if they took a different > route. I have some ideas (others welcome); I'd like to know more > about the blue Wizards to see if a meeting with one of them in > Rhun would (have) be(en) a possibility. > > Someone suggested to me that, as Gandalf had power with fire, and > Radagast had power with animals, so a Blue Wizard could have had > power with water (for want of better knowledge). Tolkien explains somewhere that their story is not known to him, but he fears that they became involved with certain evil "cults" among the Easterlings. rick heli UUCP: ... {ucbvax,lll-crg}!ucdavis!ccrrick INTERNET: ucdavis!ccrrick@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jul 86 06:15:22 GMT From: ucdavis!ccrrick@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Heli) Subject: Re: Debating Tolkien's word >However, if you find the translation idea inadequate, consider that >Tolkien wrote "Lord of the Rings" first (after Hobbit), out of the >"desire of a storyteller to try his hand at a really good story." Actually, the tales presented in _The_Silmarillion_ are among the oldest of the entire Tolkien mythos. rick heli UUCP: ... {ucbvax,lll-crg}!ucdavis!ccrrick INTERNET: ucdavis!ccrrick@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 86 16:07:12 GMT From: wjvax!brett@caip.rutgers.edu (Brett Galloway) Subject: Re: Hobbits et al. context@uw-june (Ronald Blanford) writes: >After due consideration, I have to conclude that Beorn was one of >the Maiar. The Ainur were the only beings in all of Tolkien's >writing who were able to effect changes of bodily form. [more] The >remainder of the Beornings may be human, or a mixture of human and >Maia, as there is no direct evidence that they share Beorn's >shape-changing ability, but Beorn himself must be pure Maia. I agree that Tom Bombadil was Maia. However, I disagree that Beorn was. I suspect, first, that the story of Beorn is not entirely consistent with the mythos as it was later codified; remember that the Hobbit is a children's story. Second, there is no indication, either in the Hobbit or later, that Beorn spent an unreasonably long period in existence. Gandalf never implies that Beorn had lived a long time, and Beorn seems to have died, or at least to have left his household to his descendants. I doubt that a Maiar would show up, live for a normal human lifetime, and leave. Besides, Beorn's being Maia would give Beorn give Beorn an importance that nobody recognizes, not Gandalf, Elrond, or Galadriel. Finally, magic is not evidence of being Maia/Vala. Galadriel was able to read other's thoughts (the examination of the Fellowship in Lothlorien). Luthien (sp? -- daughter of Melian and Elu Thingol) was able to "change shape", in the sense that she flew like a bat in the mission to recover the Silmarils. Granted she was was a daughter of a Maia, but she was an elf herself. Brett Galloway {pesnta,twg,ios,qubix,turtlevax,tymix,vecpyr,certes,isi}!wjvax!brett ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 86 20:03:07 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Hobbits, Beornings, et al. chris@maryland.UUCP (Lindor) writes: >On the contrary, the knowledge was passed down in song and story. Very much so, song and verse is a much better medium for memory than we "civilized" folk care to admit, especially among Elves where the original author may still be around to correct them. >In your translations, it is said that the last Elves left Middle- >earth in the Fourth Age. This statement is quite clear, succint, >unequivocal---and wrong. Someone seems to have forgotten us again! >There is one group of Elves seldom mentioned: the Avari. Perhaps >someday I shall tell our story. That is not how I read the translations. I read it that all the Elves who were going to leave left. Those that stayed behind no longer had the *option* of leaving. This means that all of the Noldor left, as well as essentially all of the Sindar, but I believe quite a number of Silvan Elves, and perhaps even some Sindar stayed. As was said in describing Frodo's departure from Lorien, the remnants have dwindled, and are no longer as powerful as they once were. I also think there were more tribes and wandering bands of Silvan Elves than most readers of LotR realize, since they were/are the scattered remainder of the Nandorin Elves(the ones who left the Great Journey in the Vale of the Anduin). If there were any Avari who were not turned into Orcs, they would be thoroughly mixed in with the remnants of the Silvan Elves by now. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 86 20:32:03 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Hobbits et al. context@uw-june (Ronald Blanford) writes: >I can't think of any other examples of either Men or Elves who were >able to discard their bodies without actually dying. I can. Luthien did it, and with her help, Beren was able to do it. Also, their daughter Idril did it, she turned into a sea bird to escape from the sack of the elf havens, and so brought the Silmaril to her husband, Earendil. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Aug 86 1358-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #220 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 2 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 220 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 28 Jul 86 11:52:47 EDT From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@bbn-labs-b.arpa> Subject: ALIENS I forgot to mention in my previous message something that other people have brought up: the idea that men's (and women's) business suits will look almost identical to 1980's fashions 200 years from now. (Just check out old movies from the 1930's to see how noticeably the business suit has changed in the last 50 years.) To Will Martin: My first impression about the digital display of the rifle capacity was that it was on a percent scale (e.g., when the thing was newly loaded, it read out as 95%, a realistic demonstration of the difference between "full" and full). As to the "hyper-sleep" discussion, isn't it patterned after the similar concept in the movie FORBIDDEN PLANET, where the crew went into a form of suspended animation briefly, while the ship "jumped" through hyperspace? I gathered that this was for the safety of the crew, not for passage-of-time reasons. ALIENS opened big its first weekend (~$10 million), and the industry speculates that it may surpass this summer's current box office champs (TOP GUN and KARATE KID II), if it turns out to have "legs." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 86 12:47 EDT From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA Subject: aliens Ok, I would like to address a few of the points brought up in previous postings: >Hicks says the relief mission will show up in 17 days. So why use >cold sleep to make the trip? I think conservation of resources combined with the avoidance of mental fatigue adequately account for this. >The android said the platform was too weak to support the landing >craft so he had to circle it around. But the landing craft was >shown hovering. Why not just hover off the platform? We know that the craft had vertical and horizontal thrust capabilities. I postulate that the android, when he moved the craft off the platform, used a maximum amount of horizontal thrust, with a minimum of vertical thrust. He knew that if he used vertical thrust only, the downward force that would be exerted on the structure of the weakened platform would almost certainly cause it to collapse, making it very difficult, or inpossible, to get Ripley back on board in time. So he had to fly around the structure once he took off, in order to kill the horizontal vector, and to hover next to the platform. >If the android is programmed with Asimov's laws, why does he try >the mumbledy-peg game with Hudson's hand? Judging from the android's reaction speed demonstrated in the game, there was no chance that Hudson could have been injured. Therefore, if the android calculated that he would not hurt Hudson by playing the game, the first law would not apply. He would instead be subject to the second law, and obey the command to play the game. >Point: when Ripley hit the airlock, ole queenie was hanging on to >her leg and Ripley onto the ladder. Why didn't Ripley's leg and >the queen fly off into space? I'd think Ripley's joints would fail >before the queen's strength (remember Bishop?). Sigh. I think that a common error here is confusing size, strength, and mass. We know for a fact that the aliens are strong, but there is no evidence that they are massive. On the contrary, given their inhumanly fast reflexes and their speed in moving through the ducts, it seems to me that the aliens are quite light for their size (I.e., low density). It's possible that the queen, large though she may be, is not much substantially more massive than Ripley. Ripleys leg could take that much weight without tearing out of her hip, certainly. The physical structure of a muscle is more important than mass as far as strength is concerned. >In the first movie, one was given the impression that the aliens >were a local problem discovered by the crew of the first ship (the >alien ship) and overcome by it. Then in the second movie they >specified (Ripley did) that the aliens where not local. I was >annoyed at this, where did she get this information? Don't forget the giant's ship was a wreck; it had crashed. If the aliens were native to the planet, the giants would have landed normally, then been overwhelmed. This did not happen. Instead, the pilot, who was busy navigating the ship, must have been caught unawares by a facehugger that was already aboard the ship (notice the giant was found in the pilot's seat). Made comatose by the facehugger, the ship crashed into the planet (which was probably being surveyed by the giant). We then have one alien on the planet after it chest-bursts the giant. It recognized a new territory unoccupied by its own kind. This simulated a genetic reaction which turned this alien into a queen. This queen then lays all the eggs found in the wreckage (this species must be able to fertilize its own eggs), and eventually crawls off somewhere and dies of old age. This is the scenario we find at the beginning of the first movie. >if the aliens skin is dense enough to sustain molucular acid for >blood, wouldn't it be kinda of tough to bullets too? A substance does not have to be dense to be chemically inert. Certain plastics are unaffected even by the strongest acids. I think the aliens exostructure must be composed of such a plastic-like substance, which is inert as well as hard and light (see above). It is not meant for armor but to contain the acid. After all, a predator biting into an alien would die almost instantly from the acid, so their armor doesn't have to be strong. >In the first movie, the meal they had looked like >food-from-the-future. while in the second movie we end up looking >at T.V. dinners. I hope in the 57 years elapsed between the two movies that some improvement would have been made in the quality of "space food". >In the first movie the little alien (the one that attaches to the >face) jumped out and used the acid_blood to dissolve right through >the space suit. So, what I want to know, how did they manage to >keep those other aliens captured inside those containers? Wouldn't >they just use their acid to get out? Those containers must have been made of the kind of plastic that I postulated above. Notice that it is inert, but not that strong (they were smashed in order to let the facehuggers run loose in the room with Ripley and Newt). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 86 11:30 PDT From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA The problem mentioned wherein the man gets his butt whipped and the woman has to save it by dragging his unconcious form to safety has a few reasons. In Aliens specifically, the Marines were fighting the aliens while Ripley was cuddling Newt. She didn't start fighting until Hicks caught some acid in the face and chestplate. This is common in fights, but it's normally called reinforcements and doesn't normally pull your fat out of the fire. As for Bishop and his game of mumblypeg; he knew he wasn't going to hit Hudson, so there wasn't any danger. The only problem would be freaking Hudson out, but Bishop's programming didn't seem that complete. Does Isaac get a residual every time someone quotes one of his laws or has 50 years passed yet? Nope, it's only been 40 years, but then the copyright is supposed to last for 50 years after the authors death, right? Has he died yet, literarally speaking, of course? :-) As for Bishop's continued functioning with only half his body, let's play with some ideas. First, computers haven't changed radically. This means Bishop's brain and nervous system are standard computer parts that we know so well. This allows them to function independant of his body, assuming an uninterupted power supply. The "guts" we saw splashed all over were more likely provided for the mechanics of his body. We already know that traditional levers and motors are woefully inadequate for duplicating the human body. They are slow and bulky. Perhaps a more fluid based system (with plenty of milk for gore effect) would be more functional. This seems to be how the androids, er, artifical people were built. The company may not be the tiolet paper that they are made out to be. While it is certain that Burke was a complete *sswipe, he seemed to say that the company knew nothing about the Aliens. He was there to try and secure a "share" for himself in the bioweapons field. He said that if they blew off about the whole thing then the company or, worse yet, the government would step in and there would be no exclusive rights for anybody. Burke probably sleezed his way to his current position as (the guy who sent the Nostromo to it's death)'s assistant. Together they were trying to make a lot of money on the sly without regard to how many people they killed. Actually, you have to consider how you would react to this scenario. Remember how tough mankind is and that there aren't any monsters. You are a company executive with a large mortgage (about $2,000,000 at 27% for that house in San Diego) and you get an alien message. Decoding it secretly by lubricating a few hands with $$$ you find out it is warning of an alien creature. Being a basic sleaze, you order the nearest ship under your jurisdiction to investigate and give the android orders to carry out the secret mission (because people tend to worry about themselves). The ship is never heard from again. You retire in another 40 years and live happily ever after. Meanwhile, your plucky assistant, who actually did the dirty work for getting the message decoded and reprogramming the android, finds out that Ripley has been found. He now has the clout to organize a capture mission because the colony ship he sent there has disappeared and these critters look to be retty tough. So he takes a squad of Marines and heads out there to capture one, thinking that they can't stand up to Marines. The funny thing is that he believes this or he wouldn't have gone along in the first place. Meanwhile, you are still living in a nice house worrying about your daughter, who is on her third marriage to a migrant farm worker from Oregon. Hardly fair is it? ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 86 07:00:00 GMT From: tekig5!chrisa@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Andersen) Subject: Re: Bughunt! (ALIENS, SPOILERS, SPOILERS) dobro@ulowell.UUCP (Gryphon) writes: >Maybe the Compnay KNEW what was going on, but refused to >(publically?) admit it. The android's programming in the orig. and >a few other things could easily lead us to this conclusion. But The Company *did* know about the aliens. In the first movie they purposely rerouted the Nostromo to pick one of them up. Which is something that bugs me a little about _Aliens_. Why would The Company place a colony on a planet that it knew had these aliens on it; furthermore, why didn't they send another mission to try to pick them up? Why did it suddenly drop the whole project of getting the aliens until Burke picked it up again 57 years later? Yours in better understanding, Chris Andersen (chrisa@tekig5) ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 86 20:09:05 GMT From: wall@boves.dec.com Subject: ALIENS -- \"You're so cute, let me hug your face!\" The following discussion has what might be considered spoilers in it: Scott Jordan writes: >What kind of Marines leave the ramp to a landing vehicle down in >hostile territory? I thought the alien that eventually wasted the dropship simply scampered aboard when the dropship dumped off the APC. Those little buggers are fast. Bill Ingogly writes: > A huge problem with "Alien," "Aliens," "The Thing (remake)," and > many other films in this genre hasn't ever been mentioned in this > group (as far as I can tell). You see, for a little organism to > grow into a big organism it needs BIOMASS. One minute you've got a > cute li'l chest burster, the next you've got a big lug on the > lines of Arnold Schwarzenegger. Whaa? WHERE DID THE BIOMASS COME > FROM??? It's enough to make anyone who's gotten beyond Bio 101 > puke ... A somewhat related question comes to mind: How come the Alien on the Nostromo was so huge (the sucker stood at least 2.5 meters by the end) and so many of the Aliens on LV-426 were man-size? My own theory goes back to a remark made about the aliens being extremely adaptable. They start out as very simple organisms, which get more and more suited to their environment as they mature. For me, this fells two birds with one grenade. The alien on the Nostromo had plenty to eat (no one is sure what they eat, maybe they can suck down whatever is around) and it had plenty of room to move around (lots of big spaces on the Nostromo) so it got big. However, back on LV426, there are a lot more of them, in fewer open spaces, so they're smaller. A local weekly newspaper (Worcester Magazine) called Aliens "one of the five best combat films ever made." That's what makes it such a success in my opinion. It stands all by itself. Cameron didn't set out to make a horror movie in space as good as Ridley Scott's. He took THE STORY and filmed a logical succeeding chapter to THE STORY. That was enough to make it extremely entertaining, in spite of some forewarning as to the plot. Anyone on the net with influence in Hollywood take note. THE STORY is the thing. Here's another question. Did anyone get the feeling that the aliens take on some slight physical characteristic of the host from which they came? It's sort of stupid, but in the brief glimpse I got of the alien that sent that scumbucket Burke to his richly-deserved fate, I had the feeling it had something of one of the dead marines about it. David F. Wall Digital Equipment Corporation -- HPSCAD, Marlboro, MA UUCP: ...!{decvax|decuac}!{boves,gaynes}.dec.com!wall or !decvax::{boves,gaynes}::wall ARPA: wall%{boves,gaynes}.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 86 14:09:03 GMT From: ides!kimi@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE) I'm beginning to think I saw a different movie from the rest of you guys. I thought the Queen had a grip on Ripley's specially designed high-top Reebok, and that the shoe slipped off. I do agree that there seems to be a weird mass-to-strength ratio--we all assume the aliens must be heavy because they are so strong. In the latest TIME photos, however, the aliens look like wire sculptures. They have an enviable muscle-to-fat ratio :-). And as far as what was pushing the Queen out the lock--it's easy to think of it as gravity rather than the escaping air. Where did the "gravity field" end, do you suppose? Kimiye Tipton Maitland, FL USA USENET: ihnp4!abfll!kimi ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 86 16:44:56 GMT From: hound!rfg@caip.rutgers.edu (R.GRANTGES) Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*) - really Biomass In Who Goes There and its most accurate film version, THe Thing (II), the biomass of "the thing" was bounded by the biomass of whatever was "taken over." A big 'un could split into little ones, or little ones could join together to form a big 'un. I think the biomass problem was handled very well in these stories. In the James Arness version (the Thing (I)), I don't recall any violations either. The thing in the ice <was> the biomass for James Arness. The little ones he was growing from seed. There were no others. In Alien there was pretty rapid growth, perhaps but two outs: 1) As I recall the time scale was rather vague. 2) Biomass could have come from lots of places if there was time to assimilate it ...tanks of who knows what were all over the place. Dick Grantges hound!rfg ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Aug 86 1619-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #221 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 3 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 221 Today's Topics: Books - Bester & Biggle & Perry & Footfall & Myths, Films - Books into Films, Television - The Tomorrow People & Star Trek (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - Crosshatch Generators ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Jul 86 19:05:36 GMT From: thome@rochester.ARPA (Mike Thome) Subject: The Demolished Man On (re)reading Bester's _The_Demolished_Man_, I noticed that the cover said, "Soon to be a major motion picture."... Does anyone know if this ever happened? If so, how 'bout the director/company/actors involved (maybe even a review)? To help out, the story revolves around a man who tries to get away with murder in a world where a significant fraction of the population is telepathic (including the inspector in charge of the case). tnx, Mike Thome thome@rochester ...!{allegra,decvax}!rochester!thome ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 86 18:46:17 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Lloyd Biggle is one of my favorite writers; _All the Colors of Darkness_, _Watchers of the Dark_, and _This Darkening Universe_ are the Jan Darzek triplet, which play some interesting changes on detective stories. (I can't imagine translating any of them under the title _War of the Ghosts_, but stranger things have happened....) Biggle is a musicology professor, so his work frequently invokes musical themes (as in _The Still Small Voice of Trumpets_). Also particularly recommended is _Monument_, expanded from a story in _Astounding_---not immortal SF but very well done. He has two collections I can think of offhand: _The Rule of the Door (and other Fanciful Regulations)_, and _The Metallic Muse_ (specifically SF about the arts). I think he also wrote "And Madly Teach", an excellent ifthisgoeson about public education. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 86 22:08:00 GMT From: hp-pcd!everett@caip.rutgers.edu (everett) Subject: Steve Perry's Matador Trilogy Just finished the second of the the Matador trilogy by Steve Perry. The books are: The Man Who Never Missed Matadora The Machiavelli Interface The third book was just published (July 86 in softcover). These aren't 'classics', but they're certainly good enough to be recommended. NOT REALLY A SPOILER PLOT SUMMARY: The Confederation rules the galaxy (a very small part of it anyway, about 86 star systems, or something like that). The Confederation is ruthless in stamping out rebellion (on one planet, they land and blow away (with super-automatic rifles) millions and millions of unarmed people). During one of these escapades, the Hero, a soldier of the Confederation experiences a moment of 'enlightenment' during the heat of the battle, and simply walks away. He has realized that the Confederation is Evil and must fall. But, he must avoid a bloody revolution in causing its downfall, or what replaces it will be just as bad. END OF NOT REALLY A SPOILER PLOT SUMMARY. I admit, this isn't the most original of plots. There's lots of martial arts stuff. However, the characterizations are interesting, trying to delve into the psycology of the characters and why they do what they do. This is the saving grace of the books. At hardcover prices, I wouldn't be able to recomment them, but in paperback, a good fun read. If the Science Fiction Book Club puts them together into a single volume, a definite buy. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 86 19:51:12 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Footfall jsdy@hadron.UUCP (Joseph S. D. Yao) writes: >Question. Early on, one of the people who spots the ship is a >"chap named Tom Duff, a computer type" at Kitt Peak observatory. >Considering the name-dropping in Footfall, might this be a ref- >erence to the Unix Graphics Tom Duff, of NYIT/Lucas/Bell Labs? I doubt it. DUFF is a special term used among SF fans. It means Down Under Fan Fund. I am not entirely sure what it is for, but we have occasional auctions at the LA Science-Fantasy Society meetings to raise money for it. I suspect that this is what is actually being referenced. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 86 18:36:41 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: recycled myths >Does anyone else feel the distaste I do for stories which (through >the artifice of time travel or something equally unlikely) use >modern characters to 'explain' a myth? I think it was Ben Bova who listed this stunt, under the general term "tomato surprise story", among the types of stories he specifically DIDN'T want to see any more of. (In VIEWPOINT, a collection of his editorials (mostly) published for his GoHship at Boskone in 1977. Specific examples included the shipwrecked/castaway couple turning out to be Adam and Eve and the nova turning out to be the Star of Bethlehem. This last was of course done by Arthur C. Clarke ("The Star"); a point Bova didn't bother to make is that if you're good enough you can break any of the ]rules[, but most writers make the mistake of building the story around the surprise instead of using it as background to a real plot.) >Robert Silverberg, whose work I often admire, has been playing >around with Gilgamesh recently, for example featuring him as a >character in a story for the 'Writers (sp?) in Hell' series. I suspect Gilgamesh fascinates SF writers because it's the very oldest piece of writing that can possibly be called SF. Bob Tucker wrote a mediocre (i.e., OK for Tucker) novel about a Gilbert Nash, who was the basis for Gilgamesh and who is hanging around Oak Ridge hoping to get what he needs to get home. BTW, I love the typo "Writers in Hell" (I guess you're referring to "Heroes in Hell"?)---it brings up a number of interesting images.... CHip (Chip Hitchcock) ARPA: CJH@CCA.CCA.COM uu: ...!{decvax!linus, seismo!harvard, cbosgd, caip!think}!cca!cjh ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 86 05:51:12 GMT From: mecc!sewilco@caip.rutgers.edu (Scot E. Wilcoxon) Subject: Re: books into films Well, if you want quantity and variety I suggest Smith's "Lensman". Mental, beam, flying, and other effects needed. Sheer scale of the needed effects probably still makes it impossible. I suppose they could start with the first books and worry later about how to show galactic fleet maneuvers and alternate universes. Or did you want something with a real plot? (I'd like to see the steel crashcycle traffic scenes in Omnivision :-) Scot E. Wilcoxon Minn Ed Comp Corp {quest,dicome,meccts}!mecc!sewilco {{caip!meccts},ihnp4,philabs}!mecc!sewilco 45 03 N 93 08 W (612)481-3507 ------------------------------ Date: TUESDAY 07/29/86 13:28:37 PST From: 7GMADISO <7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> Subject: The Tomorrow People This British SF series was mentioned a while back. If anyone is interested, here is an episode guide and cast list I have compiled. The Tomorrow People Episode Guide The Slaves Of Jedikiah 5 untitled episodes The Medusa Strain 4 untitled episodes The Vanishing Earth 4 untitled episodes The Blue And The Green 1) An Apple For The Teacher 2) A Changing Picture 3) The Trojan Horse 4) Cuckoo In The Nest 5) The Swarming Season A Rift In Time 1) A Vase Of Mystery 2) Turn Of The Thumb 3) From Little Acorns... 4) Rise Of The Roman Empire The Doomsday Men 1) Dressed To Kill 2) The Burning Sword 3) Run Rabbit Run 4) The Shuttlecock Secret Weapon 1) Lost & Found 2) Not Quite A Sleeping Beauty 3) Whose Side Are You On, Professor 4) A Present From Russia Worlds Away 1) Secret Of The Pyramid 2) Hound Of The Night 3) More For The Burning A Man For Emily 1) The Fastest Gun 2) Here We Go Round The Doozlum 3) Shotgun Wedding The Revenge Of Jedikiah 1) Curse Of The Mummy's Tomb 2) Last Chance 3) Farewell Performance One Law 1) One Law For The Poor 2) Another For The Rich 3) Which Prohibits Them Equally From Stealing Bread Into The Unknown 1) The Visitor 2) The Father-Ship 3) The Tunnel 4) The Circle The Dirtiest Business 1) A Spy Is Born 2) A Spy Dies... A Much Needed Holiday 1) Spilled Porridge 2) Just Desserts The Heart Of Sogguth 1) Beat The Drum 2) Devil In Disguise The Lost Gods 1) Flight Of Fancy 2) Life Before Death Hitler's Last Secret 1) Men Like Rats 2) Seeds Of Destruction The Thargon Menace 1) Unexpected Guests 2) Playing With Fire Castle Of Fear 1) Ghosts And Monsters 2) Fighting Spirit Achilles Heel 1) A Room At The Inn 2) Everything To Lose The Living Skins 1) A Harmless Fashion 2) Cold War War Of The Empires 1) Close Encounter 2) Contact! 3) Standing Alone 4) All In The Mind The Tomorrow People Cast List Tim/Timus/Tikno .................................... Phillip Gilbert John ................................................ Nicholas Young Carol ............................................... Sammie Winmill Kenny ............................................... Stephen Salmon Steven ........................................ Peter Vaughan-Clarke Peter .............................................. Richard Speight Elizabeth .......................................... Elizabeth Adare Tyso ................................................. Dean Lawrence Tricia ................................................ Ann Curthoys Michael ............................................ Michael Holoway Hsui Tai ............................................... Misako Koba Andrew ................................................ Nigel Rhodes Jedikiah .............................. Roger Bizley/Francis DeWolff Ginge Harding ..................................... Michael Standing Lefty .................................................. Derek Crewe Chris Harding ................................. Christopher Chittell Professor Cawston .................................... Bryan Stanion Evergreen .............................................. Denise Cook Bruce Forbes ......................................... Dominic Allan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 86 18:49:02 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Trek recycling (what to...) "Spaceships have longer lives than the people who man them." (A. Bertram Chandler, who ought to know, in "Planet of Ill Repute".) Of course, sabotage is another matter, but a series about the life of a ship over generations of crews could give lots of room, rather like the "Menagerie" frame to "The Cage". ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jul 1986 13:46 EDT (Tue) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> Subject: Star Trek It seems to me there are two problems: 1. A lot of people want to see Kirk, Spock, et al, forever, 2. The actors are all getting too old to keep it up, and want to do other things as well. Therefore, the obvious solution is to have an episode entitled, "The TARDIS Factor," (or, from the BBC viewpoint, "Doctor Who and the Starship Enterprise") in which the Doctor appears on the bridge of the Enterprise and ends up regenerating everyone. This way, we can have all new actors playing everyone's favorite characters, and everyone will be happy. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 86 22:33:08 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: Star Trek new characters >I'm really surprised to hear all this sentiment about the old ST >characters being the center of "ST." Don't be. I would guess that the majority of people think of Star Trek as a collection of the most prominent character quirks of its personalities: Spock's neck pinch and ears, Kirk's obsession with command and his incessant love affairs (my sister once claimed he fell in love every episode: demonstrably false, but that was the impression made), and a general impression that all competent space engineers are Scots. The deeper and more important components you mention are unknown or simply uninteresting to the greater number of people. >. . . If any one thing is the center, it's the Enterprise, which is >why I felt so cheated when they destroyed it, but that's another >story. I'd be interested to hear in what way(s) you think of it as the centre. Personally I regretted that they destroyed that pretty new design: the one from the series now looks clunky and angular to me. The new one reminds me very much of a swan with wings half-upraised. But I regretted much more that such a monumental action was taken in the cause of such a minor film. ST III was the slowest and least interesting of all three so far. No particular theme, and no particular contribution; in fact, it seemed primarily to be diluting ST II's contributions. ST I was Spock's film (Veger was his example and warning: "This could happen to you if you don't admit the worth of emotions"), ST II was Kirk's. ST III was an appendix to ST II, with delusions of grandeur and empty self-righteousness ( "How many people have died for your impatience?" Answer: none. Khan killed them in his mania for revenge. Genesis, protomatter and all, provided the refugees from Regulus with a haven). And for an appendix, they destroyed the whole ship. Not even logically, by using the antimatter in the warp generators, which would have done the job instantly, but by a long series of small explosions. >I think that characters could come and go, as they did in MASH, and >only make the series stronger. Star Trek needs more similarities to M*A*S*H than that. Mostly, it needs M*A*S*H's writers. They proved that it is in fact physically possible for a Hollywood series to have fine writing. Star Trek occasionally rose above the masses (of Hollywood junk) in its writing: but that wasn't difficult. Frequently it didn't. But I certainly agree that it is possible to bring in new and likeable characters if it is properly done. M*A*S*H has done it. Doctor Who does it on an almost regular basis. And it would be nice to see the current films relying less on sentiment for "old friends", and more on solid personalities. >I WANT to see a new Star Trek with the same setting, background, >the same "to boldly go" theme, but with new people. Let's have >another strong Captain, another fascinating alien, some new >personality types. Saavik was a great addition, as far as she >went. We need more new people like her. My feeling at this point is that ST has run its course. It's possible to run a good thing right into the ground, and I can see that coming for ST. Unless they can do something significant with a new series, I wouldn't even bother trying. However, I would really like to see Saavik properly developed. Hopefully Kirstee Allie has by now fired the agent who lost her the part for ST III. With no discourtesy intended to Robin Curtis, I find Ms. Allie much more convincing in the part. As a Romulan/Vulcan mix, Saavik is unique on the show, and worth exploring. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 86 23:02:17 EDT From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU> Subject: Crosshatch generator To: utastro!tmca@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott) >I don't know what a crosshatch generator is either, but I'll lay >odds on it being future-speak, sf jargon. A crosshatch generator is a device that produces a crosshatch pattern on a color TV screen for the purpose of aligning the colors. It could be considered a distant ancestor to video games. Now, can we please go back to discussing books and magazines instead of music videos? Keith ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Aug 86 1648-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #222 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 3 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 222 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Jul 86 02:45:45 GMT From: ukma!sean@caip.rutgers.edu (Sean Casey) Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*) okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU writes: >Wrong. Newton's Third Law clearly states: "For every action, there >is an equal and opposite reaction." If your theory were true, then >rockets would not be able to function in space ("Nothing to push >against, therefore no thrust"). As long as the hovering jets can >fire, then it will hover, even if they were in a vacuum. Aha! Mostly right, but not completely. There is such a thing as ground effect that does assist lift when a craft is close to the surface of the ground. For example, it's much easier for a helicopter to take off from a grass field than a concrete one simply due to the difference in the ground effect. Now, on the other hand, I doubt if the guy who he is referring to was thinking about ground effect when he posted his article. We'll concede that the other guy didn't know what he was talking about... Sean Casey University of Kentucky Lexington, Kentucky UUCP: cbosgd!ukma!sean CSNET: sean@uky.csnet ARPA: ukma!sean@anl-mcs.arpa BITNET: sean@ukma.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jul 86 04:11:10 GMT From: sun!falk@caip.rutgers.edu (Ed Falk) Subject: Re: Bughunt! (ALIENS, SPOILERS, SPOILERS) > Which is something that bugs me a little about Aliens. Why would > The Company place a colony on a planet that it knew had these > aliens on it; furthermore, why didn't they send another mission to > try to pick them up? Why did it suddenly drop the whole project > of getting the aliens until Burke picked it up again 57 years > later? I assumed that after the first mission failed, the people responsible for it had the whole thing hushed up. After 30 years, it was forgotten. When Burke heard Ripley's report, he got the same bright idea that some predecessor had had half a century earlier and sent the colonists to go investigate. ed falk, sun microsystems falk@sun.com sun!falk ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 86 21:44:34 GMT From: usc-oberon!spencer@caip.rutgers.edu (Randy Spencer) Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*) > The reason she warned about the "thermal converters" was that > there was a risk of starting a meltdown. Vasquez brought her own > bullets and used them with the result that the meltdown started > just as Ripley warned. Once the reaction was started, it hardly > mattered that Ripley fired off a few more rounds. Wait a minute, here! The reason that the meltdown started was *not* because the marine with the big shoulders fired off a couple of rounds, it was specified (by Hicks, I believe) that it was the ship crashing into the reactor that had caused the inevitable meltdown. Aren't we having fun? I have never seen so much net mail about one subject! Randal Spencer DEC, {amiga} Consulting University of Southern California phone: (213) 743-5363 Arpa:Spencer@USC-ECL,USC-Oberon Bitnet:Spencer@USCVAXQ UUCP:...!{{decvax,ucbvax}!sdcrdcf,scgvaxd,smeagol}!usc-oberon!spencer Home: 937 N. Beverly Glen Bl. Bel Air California 90077 (213) 470-0428 ------------------------------ Date: Tue 29 Jul 86 11:49:42-PDT From: Bob Sheleg <SHELEG@SRI-WARBUCKS.ARPA> Subject: Alien/Aliens intelligence >...though I was annoyed by the alien's ability to FIND them. In >the first movie they always walked into the Alien. >The Aliens are semi-intelligent... Until reading contrary opinions here, I thought it was obvious that the Alien was intelligent and further had some kind of psychic ability, enabling it to know where the people were AND what they were doing. It seemed to enjoy terrifying the humans, and played a kind of cat and mouse game with them. I'm on a bit of shaky ground here, because it's been a couple of years since I've seen Alien. But if memory serves, the creature cuts off Sigourney's...sorry, Ripley's escape AFTER she arms the ships self-destruct (love that name Sigourney.) and does so late enough for Ripley to just miss being able to disarm it. Then the alien itself heads out to hide in the escape pod. All planned if you ask me. Even more likely: It actually intended for Ripley to disarm it, but when she blew it, the Alien retreated to the escape pod as its only recourse. In fact, I assumed the point was that its malevolence was its weakness. Its ever-present sadistic streak, allowing the people to live as long as they did, standing around bearing its teeth and drooling when it should be pouncing, etc.) is what finally did it in. It seems it only took captain Dallas (when it could have taken/killed any/all of them) to scare the space-mix out of everyone. After all, he was armed, and all aboard thought of him as the hunter, not the prey. Sort of like: That was your best shot, and it was just a snack to me! Time to start sweating, future entrees! Wasn't there a line something like: Its toughness is only exceeded by its nastiness. I don't think it was at all clear in the original that the creature even minded the flamethrower. (Wasn't there a Star Trek episode where some being actually drew some kind of sustenance from people's fear?) Anyway, I thought the point was clear that no creature that frivolous was any match for Ripley's hard-headed pragmatism and heroic sense of self-preservation. I certainly agree with the suggestions that these new aliens are a good deal whimpier than the original, what with bullets killing them and all. Did anyone put a stopwatch on how long the original alien was able to hold on to that engine even AFTER Ripley had fired it up?? Anything you could kill with a shotgun would've been vaporized faster than the eye could see. Bob Sheleg ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jul 86 00:39:44 GMT From: udenva!showard@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve "Blore" Howard) Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE) brucec@tekgen.UUCP (Bruce Cheney) writes: >I thought there were several large logical holes in Aliens. > >2) PLOT SLIP-UP - The colonists haven't seen or heard anything >about creatures. But when Ripley shows up, they have a full-blown >research project going on the Alien biology. They even have samples >in jars of live critters (which must have stayed alive for YEARS, >see above). So they have been studying them for some time, WITHOUT >TELLING EARTH ?? A Watergate-style coverup by the company ?? >C'mon.... Burke sent them to investigate the crashed ship, without telling anyone else, so he could get credit for obtaining the creatures--he admits this in the scene where he is alone with Ripley. >3) Strategy slip-up - Would you take EVERYONE off your spaceship >for a ground mission ?? Leaving your backup shuttle up there ? >Making replenishment of supplies a round-trip operation instead of >a one-way operation ?? Cap'n Kirk would never have approved. This was a mistake on the Marines' part, but remember they didn't really believe Ripley's story until they found the creatures and fought the first wave which wiped out half their forces. >4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space >ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them, >they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only glimmer >of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an elevator. No they didn't. The pilot of the crashed ship was hosting one of the aliens (his chest had exploded) and his ship was full of their eggs, but the ship was from another alien culture altogether. Steve Howard {hplabs, seismo}!hao!udenva!showard or {boulder, cires, ucbvax!nbires, cisden}!udenva!showard ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jul 86 23:18:27 GMT From: oliveb!gnome@caip.rutgers.edu (Gary Traveis) Subject: Re: Aliens re:the explosion of the reactor From: Ray <CARON@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU> > Now a melt down of a plant the size of the one in the movie would >do serious damage to the immediate area but there would be no >mushroom cloud. They said, in the movie, that it was a fusion system. I would assume that it's use (in converting the atmosphere of a an entire planet) would differ from a straight old electric generating plant as well. Judging by the amount of stray lightning-bolts flying around the place, there seemed to be a bit more energy in operation than a normal water-boiler! Gary ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 86 22:33:18 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Aliens SPOILERS (after a fashion) Does Ripley now qualify for a Class-1 Loader License? On the basis of the new movie, I find that I have to modify my Alien Life Cycle theory only slightly. I think I mentioned that there needed to be an egg-laying form. Umm. Some names for the forms. Egg. Analyzer. Embryo. Warrior. Queen. Life cycle goes Egg==>analyzer==> | |>Embryo==>Warrior==>Queen==>Egg Warrior=========> | where an embryo is implanted either by a warrior or by the analyzer form. (Note that the warrior==>embryo connection is only implied by the book Alien (the scene where Ripley meets Dallas with an embryo implanted)). Aliens seem to sense/communicate through some system unknown to man. They can see us when we can't see them. Although any warrior can grow into a queen, only one queen needs to exist per area. The presence of a queen probably inhibits other warriors from making the transformation. REAL SPOILERS It seems unlikely that Newt is infected--it seems that only one embryo can grow in a body, and the analyzer form from an egg was heading in her direction. It would be inefficient for it to do so if Newt was already carrying. How did Burke get Ripley's gun from her? As I see the scenario, he had to (1). sneak into the room. (2). steal the gun. (3). release the analyzers (not an entirely safe thing to do). Those doors opening and closing make a lot of noise--why didn't Ripley wake up (I don't buy the dead tired excuse-- it seems she should have been so hyped that anything would have woken her)? I guess that Burke could have been fast and lucky. He opens the door, dashes in, grabs the gun, rips the top off of the containers and dashes out. the analyzers leave their containers almost immediately after Burke removes the lids--Burke is lucky that it takes them a little bit to get out. Ripley is awoken by the simultaneous closing of the door and crashing of the containment vessels. But it seems a bit shakey to me. And Burke was back at the cameras when Ripley was trying to get out. Perhaps I forgot something. Anyone remember better? david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jul 86 18:46:29 GMT From: ethos!jay@caip.rutgers.edu (Jay Denebeim) Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*) Now, I only saw the movie once, but in the Campbell story both versions of The Thing were taken from, Who Goes There, the thing was a single celled organisim. The people/dogs/seagulls, whatever were digested cell by cell, the thing's cells assimilated the genetic information contained in the eatee. That was one of the things that was the most horrific about the book. The victims didn't even realize they were thing food untill the thing-cells wanted to do something the ex-human didn't want to do. Really nervewraking, check out the original in the greatest SF vol 2A. Jay Jay Denebeim UUCP: {seismo,decvax,ihnp4}!mcnc!rti-sel!ethos!jay BBS: Deep Thought, ZNode #42 300/1200/2400 919-471-6436 ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jul 86 13:42:28 GMT From: peora!joel@caip.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: Bughunt! (ALIENS, SPOILERS, SPOILERS) Chris Andersen (chrisa@tekig5) writes: >But The Company *did* know about the aliens. In the first movie >they purposely rerouted the Nostromo to pick one of them up. Which >is something that bugs me a little about _Aliens_. Why would The >Company place a colony on a planet that it knew had these aliens on >it; furthermore, why didn't they send another mission to try to >pick them up? Why did it suddenly drop the whole project of >getting the aliens until Burke picked it up again 57 years later? The way I interpreted the events of the first movie , was that the Nostromo was passing close to the planet when the computer picked up what it interpreted as a distress beacon. Space law apparently required them to respond to it. The problems started because the company had secretly programmed Ash to bring back anything that was found that would be of economic value to the company (in this case the bio-weapons division), without regard to the risk this might entail for the crew. So although the company was responsible for the Nostromo diaster, it didn't know about the aliens until Ripley returned and gave her report to Burke, who ordered the people of the terraforming colony to explore the derilict. A better question to ask is why no one else picked up the beacon for the next 57 years? If interstellar travel was done as a series of hyperspace jumps, then maybe no one else 'broke out' near enough to the planet to receive the beacon, and that the power source gave out by the time the colony was established 37 years later. Joel Upchurch @ CONCURRENT Computer Corporation Southern Development Center 2486 Sand Lake Road/ Orlando, Florida 32809/ (305)850-1031 {decvax!ucf-cs, ihnp4!pesnta, vax135!petsd}!peora!joel ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jul 86 22:59:25 GMT From: tekirl!donch@caip.rutgers.edu (Don Chitwood) Subject: Re: Aliens re:the explosion of the reactor From: Ray <CARON@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU> > I'm not sure who wrote it but someone was questioning the small > explosions occuring during Ripley's foray into the nest. I work > at a nuclear plant and may be able to shed some light. > > >One *BIG* argument that I have with the movie that unless they > supposedly don't use the same fuel that is now used it is *NEXT* > *TO* *IMPOSSIBLE* for a nuclear plant to explode as they had it. Ray, I specifically remember them referring to a FUSION power plant. Who knows what it would consist of and how it could operate. (Yeah, I know: there's probably no way in hell such a plant would be built if it could actually go chain-reaction fusion by any such malfunction. But then...the company is cheap and who's to criticize how they go about opening up a planet. They may take the risks of a super-power plant with inherent dangers just to minimize costs. The rats!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 86 19:35:20 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: good command strategy > 3) Strategy slip-up - Would you take EVERYONE off your spaceship > for a ground mission ?? Leaving your backup shuttle up there ? > Making replenishment of supplies a round-trip operation instead of > a one-way operation ?? Cap'n Kirk would never have approved. Captain Kirk. Ah yes. I remember him. The one who would routinely take as a scouting party into hostile territory most or all of his command crew; or leave his heavily armoured security detail behind while he, the most senior officer present, walked into danger with perhaps as much as a phaser in his hand (ST III comes to mind). Though occasionally, if he were foresighted enough to realise that he and said party were going to be captured, he would leave his chief engineer in command to sort it out. Excuse me, what did you say he'd never have approved? A bit catty, perhaps, but couldn't you choose a slightly better "paragon" than him? I never saw "Alien", and from all the descriptions I heard of it, I never wanted to. I appreciate good horror films, but I can't stand atrocity films -- icy fingers on the spine are one thing, a turned stomach something else entirely. So naturally, I wasn't very delighted to hear it had a successor. However, if the stream of good notices I've seen continues, perhaps I'll have a look at "Aliens" after all. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Aug 86 0843-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #223 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 4 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 223 Today's Topics: Books - Biggle & Farmer & Palmer & Erotic Sf & Celtic Myths, Films - Bladerunner (2 msgs) & The Flight of the Navigator, Television - Star Trek (3 msgs) & The Prisoner, Miscellaneous - The Word Duff & Time Travel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 JUL 86 10:29-EST From: Jason J. Lane <JJL8733%RITVAXC.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> Subject: Re: Lloyd Biggle Jr. Lloyd Biggle Jr. forgotten? Not at all! I've just finished a recent (?) work of his entitled _The_Whirligig_of_Time_ [1979] and thought it was really well done. Another book of his I picked up at a garage sale is _The_World_Menders_ [1971] which I will be reading very shortly. Jason Rochester Institute of Technology Bitnet,Earn,Netnorth : jjl8733 @ ritvaxc ARPA : jjl8733%ritvaxc.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa UUCP : ...!rochester!ritcv!jjl8733 (but I'm never here) ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jul 86 04:05:20 GMT From: watale!twmalaher@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Malaher) Subject: Re: when will the riverworld series end? simon@einode.UUCP (Simon Kenyon) writes: >Does anybody have any idea when the riverworld series (used to be >trilogy...) by Farmer will end. I've been reading it for such a >long time and would like an ending :-( Well, I was at the Worldcon in Chicago (CHICON IV) a few years back, and at that point _Gods_ hadn't come out yet. Anyway, there was an "interview" session with Farmer and he mentioned something about the number seven being a nice number, and he thought he might pad a couple of his series out to that number. In fact he mentioned _RiverWorld_ specifically. Any other Worldcon types out there remember anything more specific? Oh, by the way, you can try to mail stuff to me at watale, it's just that I *know* that the address below (watdragon) will work, and I *don't* know what watale's address is (yet). I'd love to get some mail... Tom Malaher CSNET :twmalaher%watdragon@waterloo.CSNET ARPA :twmalaher%watdragon%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.ARPA UUCP :...!{allegra|clyde|linus|utzoo|inhp4|decvax} !watmath!watdragon!twmalaher MAIL :Department of Mechanical Engineering; University of Waterloo; Waterloo, ON; N2L 3G1 ------------------------------ Date: 30 July 1986, 20:14:49 EDT From: "Brent T. Hailpern" <BTH@ibm.com> Subject: Palmer's Emergence In contrast to an earlier opinion, "boring", I really enjoyed _Emergence_. It brought back memories of Heinlein in the good old days. The protagonist is interesting, the situation is novel and changes many times in the story. The ending was exciting, but a little weak. If you liked Heinlein's "Sixth Column" (changed name to something else), "Podkayne" (sp?), "Farnham's Freehold", or "Space Cadet" -- you will like _Emergence_. Brent bth@ibm.com ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jul 86 23:47:45 GMT From: ucdavis!ccdbryan@caip.rutgers.edu (ccdbryan) Subject: Erotic Lit... If you really want erotic sf try The Tides of Lust by Samuel Delany. Definitely the most sex filled novel I have ever read. For that matter any Delany novel has quite a dose. Bryan UCD ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jul 86 19:19:55 GMT From: well!slf@caip.rutgers.edu (Sharon Lynne Fisher) Subject: Re: Celtic myth references Karen Christenson writes: >There's the Mabinogion, which is a collection of Celtic myths. >There's also a series of five juveniles (one won the Newberry) by >Susan Cooper which have several references to Celtic myths. There's also four books by Evangeline Walton about the Maginogion. Try the fantasy section of the bookstore. They're good. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jul 86 14:46:44 GMT From: chabot@3d.dec.com Subject: Re: Blade Runner doesn't measure up. Re: do androids dream Subject: ... > 3) Production values should be good to excellent. > BR is on the ball here. Plain old good moviemaking is > important, although films like "Dark Star" are an interesting > exception. I disagree: there are very obvious cables attached to the car, especially noticeable when it's taking off. I'm picky sometimes, but usually only on the third viewing of a movie. I'd been anxious to see this one for months and months--I was eager for a good show. Unfortunately, due to circumstances beyond my control, I ended up in a seat in the next to the last row, instead of my usual position plastered against the screen. Even at the end of one of those long bowling alleys of the modern movie houses, I could plainly see cables supporting the car. I loved the cityscapes, but I hated to be disillusioned about a flying machine. (And yes, I did see the cables on the second viewing.) But even more than that, I was immensely disappointed in the plot, having been a fan of Dick for years. Perhaps I should not have prep'ed so much by reading DADOES, but that was six months before the release of BR. It was more like Mike Hammer in the 21st Century than a P K Dick story. Perhaps because of its trite plot ending, it could be called a "classic science fiction movie", but I wouldn't call it classic science fiction. My opinion of BR was that it was visually interesting, intellectually boring, and morally inconsistent. l s chabot ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jul 86 20:08:39 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Blade Runner doesn't measure up. Re: do androids dream Subject: ... brad@looking.UUCP writes: >I've seen Blade Runner called a great classic of S.F. in this >group, and it just doesn't measure up. The following are important >in a great SF classic: > >1) The premise should be at least reasonable > BR's androids are so like people you can't tell them apart. In > a world so paranoid about them that it doesn't allow them on the > Earth, why would this be done? It makes sense for whoredroids, > but for mining robots? The society depicted in BR would have > insisted that the replicants be bright blue or something. This is a good point, but rather on the order of a nit. In other words, this is an easily overlooked point. A great many SF books and movies have larger holes in the premise than this, but still are well regarded. > A lesser complaint (lots of SF movies get away with this one) is > that the technology for complete duplication of human beings > (with superior powers) doesn't really make sense in the > time-frame described. Maybe yes, maybe no. Predicting the pace of technological progress in a field is very difficult. Things are quite likely to go a lot faster or significantly slower than seems reasonable. >5) If dialogue is an important part of the story it should be >superb and entertaining. > Flat on the face for BR. The dialogue is miserable, campy and > boring. Sorry you didn't like it. I found it quite acceptable. >8) You should leave the movie feeling the movie achieved its goal >superbly. I did. Frank Adams Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jul 86 18:21:57 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: THE FLIGHT OF THE NAVIGATOR THE FLIGHT OF THE NAVIGATOR A film review by Mark R. Leeper Capsule review: Adults should enjoy this Disney- Norwegian co-production as much as the kids in the audience. It is a pleasant boy-and-his-saucer film with an acceptably high level of science fiction value. While Disney Films adult film of the summer, RUTHLESS PEOPLE, is playing to sell-out audiences, they are releasing their children's film, THE FLIGHT OF THE NAVIGATOR, a film that old Walt would have loved to make while he was alive--uh, with some minor cleaning up of dialogue. The film has the sense of wonder he had with TWENTY THOUSAND LEAGUES UNDER THE SEA and failed to recapture in later soft science fiction attempts. On July 4, 1978, David hears a noise in the woods. Investigating, he falls into a ravine, picks himself up, and returns home to find perfect strangers living in his house. It seems it is now 1986 and while he hasn't changed, the world around him certainly has. A nasty government agency-- unrealistically called NASA--wants to know where a little boy can go for eight years without aging. The boy is taken to a facility for interrogation and study. This happens to be the same facility to which an odd van-sized floating object has recently been taken. THE FLIGHT OF THE NAVIGATOR is no BLADERUNNER; it's a children's film. But it is a good children's film. It doesn't talk down to children, it doesn't have a cloying moral, it doesn't misrepresent technology. Like with SPACE CAMP, NASA does have cute robots. But FLIGHT's R.A.L.F. is quite within the range of current technology. It does little more than deliver mail. I am less happy with the film's making the space agency the heavy, but then so did E.T. and STARMAN. For a children's film, THE FLIGHT OF THE NAVIGATOR did a reasonable job of entertaining the adults in the audience. Give it a +1 on the -4 to +4 scale. Mark R. Leeper ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 86 17:55:43 edt From: cd0v@andrew.cmu.edu (Chris Durham) Subject: Re: Star Trek and New Characters Cc: Wahl.ES@xerox.com, unirot!halloran@caip.rutgers.edu I agree that new characters should be introduced and kept. The killing of david was a mistake. The older characters MUST be phased out, and room made for new cast members. Paramount has capitalized on the Kirk/Spock/McCoy relationship and has done well. However, the emphasis on Spock must end. Sure, the Spock character is an excellent one, but continued emphasis on him will produce a Series called "Spock Trek" and not "Star Trek". With new characters, the series will not be "chained down" by the restrictions of Kirk and Spock, and it will allow the emphasis to once again be shifted to exploration. On TV, exploration was the central theme, with the relationship between the characters playing an integral part of this exploration. In the movies, when there was exploration( STTMP) there was no character interplay, and when there was interplay( II and III) there was no exploration. Lets return to a combination of both Chris Durham ARPA: cd0v@andrew.cmu.edu BITNET: CD0V@CMUCCVMA USENET/UUCP:{...seismo}!andrew.cmu.edu!cd0v ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jul 86 20:15:52 GMT From: mmm!cipher@caip.rutgers.edu (Andre Guirard) Subject: Re: Star Trek From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> >1. A lot of people want to see Kirk, Spock, et al, forever, >2. The actors are all getting too old to keep it up, and > want to do other things as well. > > Therefore, the obvious solution is to have an episode entitled, >"The TARDIS Factor," (or, from the BBC viewpoint, "Doctor Who and >the Starship Enterprise") in which the Doctor appears on the bridge >of the Enterprise and ends up regenerating everyone. This way, we >can have all new actors playing everyone's favorite characters, and >everyone will be happy. :-) Or how about "Star Trek: The Early Years" in which we follow the careers of the Enterprise crew before the start of the Enterprise's five-year mission? They could get younger actors who resemble the main actors. We'd get to see Spock's teddy bear, and Kirk meeting the blood-sucking fog again for the first time. I hope they get someone who can act to play Kirk this time. It would be especially interesting because of all the different settings for the stories. In the original series we didn't get to see much of the Federation, since the Enterprise was usually out "where no man has gone before." Andre Guirard, ME ihnp4!mmm!cipher ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 86 19:52:20 GMT From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Star Trek cipher@mmm.UUCP (Andre Guirard) writes: >Or how about "Star Trek: The Early Years" in which we follow the >careers of the Enterprise crew before the start of the Enterprise's >five-year mission? They could get younger actors who resemble the >main actors. Terrific idea. Seriously! It'd be nice, for a change, to see a Kirk that DOESN'T have all the answers! The only problem I can imagine is that no two of them worked together previous to the Enterprise. You _could_ have the rotating shows that everyone is talking about: one week, Kirk on the Farragut (sp?); Spock on the Enterprise, or what ever he was on before that; etc. Unfortunately, I think the Enterprise was Chekov's first assignment: Where would we be without Koenig's weekly, "AAAAUUUUUUUGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!" ;-) kaufman@orion.arpa kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jul 86 20:54:25 GMT From: mtune!jhc@caip.rutgers.edu (Jonathan Clark) Subject: The Prisoner's car colour Rather than simple 'dark green', wasn't the Lotus Super Seven actually BRG (British Racing Green) with a Bright Yellow snout? Caterham still use a publicity photo of Patrick McGoohan and KAR120C in their advertising - look in Motor Sport or Thoroughbred and Classic Car. From memory, the big black car is a Vanden Plas Landaulette, still much favoured by embassies and high officials in London. They changed the styling about 1970 though - the one in the series is the older shape. This model is one of only three to use the Jaguar V12 engine (the others being the XJ12 and the XJS). Jonathan Clark [NAC,attmail]!mtune!jhc ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jul 86 14:33:12 GMT From: unirot!halloran@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Halloran) Subject: Re: Footfall friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes: >jsdy@hadron.UUCP (Joseph S. D. Yao) writes: >> >>Question. Early on, one of the people who spots the ship is a >>"chap named Tom Duff, a computer type" at Kitt Peak observatory. >>Considering the name-dropping in Footfall, might this be a ref- >>erence to the Unix Graphics Tom Duff, of NYIT/Lucas/Bell Labs? >> > I doubt it. DUFF is a special term used among SF fans. It >means Down Under Fan Fund. I am not entirely sure what it is for, >but we have occasional auctions at the LA Science-Fantasy Society >meetings to raise money for it. I suspect that this is what is >actually being referenced. The Down Under Fan Fund is a fund established to further fannish foreign exchange: it helps foot the bill for a worthy Australian fan to come over here for the Worldcon (selected by voting with your $$), and in alternate years helps send one of us Yanks Down Under for the Aussie national con (sorry, I forget the name). Bob Halloran, Consultant UUCP: topaz!caip!unirot!halloran DDD: (201)251-7514 CSNet/ARPA: unirot!halloran@caip.rutgers.edu ATTmail: RHALLORAN USPS: 19 Culver Ct, Old Bridge NJ 08857 ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jul 86 21:15:15 GMT From: unc!melnick@caip.rutgers.edu (Alex Melnick) Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment mikes@tekecs.UUCP (Michael Sellers) writes: > As a collateral question (and possibly too speculative for these >august groups :-), if you were the one capable of sending something >back, what (or who) would it be? Another question is: If you were in the future, knew about the experiment, and had the equipment to send some material or information back to the experimenters, WHY WOULD YOU SEND ANYTHING? (Douglas Adams is right: English grammar can't handle time travel.) It seems that in performing the experiment, we're relying on someone in the future not merely to be able to help us, but also to want to help us. Is this a reasonable assumption? Maybe. They might be interested in helping fellow scientists, etc., but on the other hand, what's in it for them? Sounds like a story (or three) in here somewhere. Alex ...!mcnc!unc!melnick ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Aug 86 0902-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #224 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 4 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 224 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 31 Jul 86 00:45:55 GMT From: apple!tomas@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Taylor) Subject: Re: Bughunt! (ALIENS, SPOILERS, SPOILERS) joel@peora.UUCP (Joel Upchurch) writes: >...terraforming colony to explore the derilict. > >A better question to ask is why no one else picked up the beacon >for the next 57 years? If interstellar travel was done as a series >of hyperspace jumps, then maybe no one else 'broke out' near enough >to the planet to receive the beacon, and that the power source gave >out by the time the colony was established 37 years later. Remember the first movie? That old ship looked about a million years old. Even the huge alien with the busted out chest seemed petrified. The beacon must have been going thousands of years. I doubt it would have given out in just 37 more years. Tom Taylor Development Systems Group ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 86 00:01 CDT From: "David S. Cargo" <Cargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: Aliens I don't recall if anybody has mentioned it, but it strikes me as possible that the Aliens are a biological form of a Doomsday Weapon (you know, the kind you use to make sure that if somebody is going to take you out, he goes with you). If the aliens were biologically constructed, then the usual mechanisms for sexual reproduction that result in increasing genetic diversity are not required. The aliens can all be genetically identical. A queen alien can lay eggs without mating and all eggs would be progrgammed identically. A refinement of this would allow the knowledge base of the aliens to be programmed by the queen so that racial memory (built into biological ROM) would be possible. There is a book that I have heard of but been unable to find a copy of called WHY BIG, FIERCE ANIMALS ARE RARE. I expect that any ecosystem where the alien organism is introduced would be wiped out; I don't think the aliens could have evolved--I think they had to have been designed. (Of course, they might have a fight on their hands if they were introduced into Harrison's Deathworld or Foster's Midworld :-) David S. Cargo (Cargo at HI-Multics) ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jul 86 18:53:08 GMT From: dartvax!ericb@caip.rutgers.edu (Eric J. Bivona) Subject: Re: Bughunt! (ALIENS, SPOILERS, the Company) chrisa@tekig5.UUCP (Chris Andersen) writes: >dobro@ulowell.UUCP (Gryphon) writes: >>Maybe the Compnay KNEW what was going on, but refused to >>(publically?) admit it. The android's programming in the orig. and >>a few other things could easily lead us to this conclusion. > >But The Company *did* know about the aliens. In the first movie >they purposely rerouted the Nostromo to pick one of them up. Which >is something that bugs me a little about _Aliens_. Why would The >Company place a colony on a planet that it knew had these aliens on >it; furthermore, why didn't they send another mission to try to >pick them up? Why did it suddenly drop the whole project of >getting the aliens until Burke picked it up again 57 years later? I think it is more than possible that the Company did *not* know about the Aliens, because the people that sent the Nostromo out to LB-426 probably filed their part in it to /dev/null. Look at it this way: You're up for promotion and/or a salary increase, and your supervisors ask "so, whatever happened to the Nostromo and it's ~$42 million (adjusted) refinery, that you sent off to LB-426?" Not the question you really want asked. All you know is that the ship disappeared, never sent any messages, and there were no known survivors. Write it off. End result: 57 years later someone as greedy as you (Burke) sends the colonists off to find the derelict after listening to a potentially hysterical survivor from the Nostromo. just my 2 cents (adjusted) at rationalization. Eric J. Bivona USNET: {linus|ihnp4|decvax|astrovax|research}!dartvax!ericb ARPA: ericb%dartmouth@csnet-relay CSNET: ericb@dartmouth ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jul 86 19:34:49 GMT From: dartvax!ericb@caip.rutgers.edu (Eric J. Bivona) Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE) kimi@ides.UUCP writes: >And as far as what was pushing the Queen out the lock--it's easy to >think of it as gravity rather than the escaping air. Where did the >"gravity field" end, do you suppose? There is certainly artificial gravity at work on the ships. On the flight deck it is towards the floor, but in the lock it was to the ladder on the wall, or so it seemed when Ripley jumped to the wall. The field was probably much less at the door, where the Queen was pinned by the loader. This would also help to explain why Ripley could hang on while the lock was open, at least until a lot of the atmosphere was vented. Must be weird to climb over the edge of the lock onto the flight deck though. Eric J. Bivona USNET: {linus|ihnp4|decvax|astrovax|research}!dartvax!ericb ARPA: ericb%dartmouth@csnet-relay CSNET: ericb@dartmouth ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 86 21:37:10 GMT From: srt@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU Subject: *ALIENS* (Spoilers) Most of the replies to my original objections to *ALIENS* have been pretty lame. And why are they all cast as "refutations"? I'm not Ghod handing down the Commandments - it would be acceptable simply to argue. The bad thing about all the replies is that they all either postulate some kind of explanation that has no basis in the movie or refer to the book. Personally I feel that the movie has to stand on its own and be internally consistent without reference to a "book" that is written after the movie and with a conscious intention to explain away problems in the movie. And as far as making up explanations - like "people get sick in hyperspace so they need to be put in freeze" - well, I guess that's the business of sf and we can all do that all night. Doesn't make the holes in the movie go away, though. As for the individual explanations: * Deep Sleep. There's little or no indication in the movie that the ships have hyperspace capability. Surely the escape pod from the Nostromo didn't, and it had the same kind of sleep pod. If you are willing to grant hyper- space, though, you can make up all sorts of reasons for using deep sleep (see above). As far as using deep sleep to conserve on oxygen/food/living space, I see several objections. First of all, in a deep space craft you can carry just about as much as you want, especially of things like oxygen and food, if you are willing to stick them outside of the battle structure. You just hook a container of LOX on the outside. Second, why waste all the time during the journey? Why not use the time to prepare for the coming mission? This is an emergency rescue, after all. Finally, there has to be some sort of danger in using deep sleep. Would you be willing to let yourself be frozen/chemically slowed to save 17 days? Not me. * Mumblety-Peg. Urrgh. Everyone replied that "Bishop was fully aware that he wasn't going to harm Hudson". Not so! Bishop cut his own hand, remember? Hudson's hand was on top of Bishop's hand, remember? Therefore, Bishop could very well have cut Hudson's hand, right? Therefore, Bishop should never have played the game in the first place, right? * Using Weapons Under the Thermal Converters. Yes, I was aware that the "thermal overload" was already underway. That DOESN'T mean that it was now safe for Ripley to use her weapons in a carte blanche fashion. If I'm wandering around in a fusion reactor that's going to overload and blow sky-high in ten minutes, the last thing I'm going to do is go around shooting the place up and hasten the process. * Hovering Out of Sight of the Platform. Justify this all you want. Clearly the movie-makers just wanted to build a little tension at this point. It makes no sense at all. There is too much wind inside a building for a landing craft to hover near the platform? Yeah, THAT seems likely. And I said hover NEAR the platform, not OVER the platform. I'm well aware of Newton's laws, thank you, and I realize that hovering over the platform would have strained the platform (not to mention putting Ripley in the jet wash as she left the elevator), but it was just tension building (and cheap movie- making) to have the craft hovering out of sight. And how would Bishop know when to return? And why didn't he return immediately? * Cheap Movie Making. Ripley's dream. Need I say more? How cheap can you get? * Leaving the Landing Doors Open on the Shuttle. Please don't blame this on the incompetent commander. He wasn't even there. At any rate, professional soldiers aren't that dumb - especially not after they've survived a few missions. They have protocols beaten in to them, and they follow them. In a large part, that's what makes them survive. The real objection I have to the movie is that that plot is so obviously constructed to fit suspense/adventure story needs. Just look at the kinds of strange plot twists that are used: * If the marines go in prepared for the Aliens, it's a wipeout. They wear acid resistant armor, take the right sorts of weapons, etc. To keep that from happening, the Company completely ignores Ripley's warning. Why? Here's a trusted (in command of a multi-billion dollar spaceship) employee who's just survived a 57 year space trip to bring a warning to the Company. Can't the Company at least try to confirm her story? No, because that means the marines would go in prepared. And what happened to the indications in the earlier story that the Company knew about the Aliens in the first place? * If the marines can get back up to the orbital ship, they blow up the place and the story's over. So the marines do two *idiotic* things: Leave the ramp on the landing craft open and unguarded and take everyone to the surface. * It's a lot more suspenseful if the marines go into the lair unarmed, so another couple of strange twists: The aliens build their lair a long way from their food source, under a nuclear reactor (why?), and the marines don't retreat out to re-arm more appropriately. * In order to get some good firefights, the aliens are constantly sneaking up on the humans from above or below - as if space marines would somehow be blind to 3-d tactics. And even if they were once, wouldn't they catch on sooner or later? * In order to get Bishop out of the action and build suspense, we make him pilot the ship down on remote from near the antenna. First of all, we could build a ship today that could land near a beacon on automatic. Second, if we can build an android indistinguishable from a human, wouldn't we put at least an AI personality on board the orbital ship? Third, why does Bishop have to pilot using a keyboard and joystick? He doesn't have a remote plug or radio link built in? And this just goes on and on. It's like a cheap horror film where sixteen people have been killed in the basement and the heroine decides to check it out in her nightgown and one flickering candle. At some point you have to say "C'mon!". I didn't think *Alien* was too bad in this respect, but *Aliens* reeks of cheap, calculated movie-making. Scott ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 86 06:34:29 GMT From: calmasd.CALMA!cjn@caip.rutgers.edu (Cheryl Nemeth) Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE) Strategy slipup: the military commander of the mission is not exactly what I would call a competent individual. He clearly states that the mission will go "by the book," and perhaps he failed to read the right page. However, their strategy was really bad. Not only in reference to the ship, but also on the ground. Putting everyone in the nest under the reactor at the same time was stupid. Not pulling out was stupid. Typical of the military, of any time period. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jul 86 19:00:55 GMT From: fortune!stirling@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick Stirling) Subject: Re: ALIENS (*serious spoilers*) srt@ucla-cs.ARPA (Scott Turner) writes: >Just a couple of errors I noticed in ALIENS: I just saw this, and I disagree with some (but not all!) of your points. Here goes: >What kind of Marines leave the ramp to a landing vehicle down in >hostile territory? Good point! Also, why was the other marine hanging around outside the vehicle? As I remember he finds the goo as he climbs the ramp. >The android said the platform was too weak to support the landing >craft so he had to circle it around. But the landing craft was >shown hovering. Why not just hover off the platform? He said he couldn't stay on the platform because 'things were getting rough' or something like that - hovering near it would be just as dangerous as staying on it. >She was also pretty blithe about using the gun and the hand >grenades underneath the "thermal converters" - something she'd >warned others against earlier - which was presumably more dangerous >now that the plant was about to blow sky-high. The point about the reactor is that explosive bullets would rupture the coolant lines (which is what happened in the first encounter to initiate the reactor instability) - further use wouldn't make any difference. >Why doesn't she subject Hicks and the girl to some kind of bio-scan >once they get back up in orbit to make sure they aren't carrying an >Alien embryo (eg, "sequel blindness": More Aliens). We know the girl wasn't infected - Ripley reached her just in time to prevent it. Hicks we don't know about - but he's frozen so it can wait until they get back - also a sequel possibility. Another is that we don't see the queen die, and presumably she can withstand space (she clung to the outside of the lander). She could fall back to the planet, find the derelict ship and wait for the next load of humans to infect. >If the android is programmed with Asimov's laws, why does he try >the mumbledy-peg game with Hudson's hand? Because he knows he can do it without harming a human. The main hole I think is that it seems too convenient that the aliens are so well designed to use humans for their procreation... is the humanoid shape likely to be common in the universe? I don't know. Another big hole in Aliens is the I find it very hard to believe that it would be possible to open both doors of an airlock at once... even if it were, how long would the air in the cargo bay last? (Presumably bay would automatically seal itself off from the rest of the ship in a pressure drop). patrick {ihnp4, hplabs, amdcad, ucbvax!dual}!fortune!stirling ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jul 86 19:09:36 GMT From: fortune!stirling@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick Stirling) Subject: Re: ALIENS inconsistency ? mjranum@gouldsd.UUCP writes: >Okay, so the company (in ALIEN) diverts an oil-conversion plant to >check out a potentially dangerous alien signal. (isn't that what >all the special secret messages to Ash were ? and why he finally >tried to kill Ripley in the first version ?) So the Company sends >them out to face this thing, and then they disappear for 57 years >or so. No biggie. When Ripley comes back, the company doesn't >believe her ? Wasn't the whole kicker of ALIEN that the company >had set them up to get wasted ? > >Years later, the colony disappears, and the company is *surprised*? >it doesn't make sense. and then they still don't believe her and >only send a small party ? even THE COMPANY isn't that dumb. I thought the whole point was that the company wanted the whole thing covered up and sought to discredit Ripley. Remember the company actually sent the colonists there - in fact it was the very Yuppie that organizes the rescue mission. HE knows all about the aliens. For all we know, he sent the colonists there so that they WOULD get infected. I don't think the company was surprised at all when they colony disappears, although it IS rather a coincidence that it happens just as Ripley shows up, and after the colonists have been there 20 years! Oh well it's just a film after all, and a very good one too! patrick {ihnp4, hplabs, amdcad, ucbvax!dual}!fortune!stirling ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Aug 86 0942-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #225 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 4 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 225 Today's Topics: Books - Wolfe & Erotic SF (2 msgs), Films - Lensman & Maximum Overdrive & Dr. Phibes, Television - Star Trek (4 msgs) & The Prisoner & Tripods, Miscellaneous - Time Travel (3 msgs) & WorldCon SFL Party ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 1 Aug 86 07:19:37-CDT From: William DeVaughan <WDEVAUGHAN@STL-HOST1.ARPA> Subject: Re: The recent discussions on Gene Wolfe and BotNS: Talking with Gene at the ARCHON SFCon in St. Louis last weekend, he said he has the FIFTH Volume of the BotNS TRILOGY #$%&* about ready to come out - as he said - it's like breaking the sound barrier - once you get past the boundary, it gets easier. Anyway, the new volume is "probably the last" and will be called _The Urth of the New Sun_; Sevarian will have been on throne ten years, it skips his reign as Autarch, and the book concerns his attempt to penetrate the barrier between the universes and get a new sun for Urth, using a ship called a SunJammer with a mass of ten thousand tonnes and one hundred and fifty thousand spars and sails. With his flair for the descriptive phrase, it ought to be another extraordinary book. By the way, he pointed out in response to a question that he works very hard at researching and checking the derivations of the words he uses in BotNS. It sometimes takes him two weeks to find just the right work to to evoke the nuances he wants to express. He seemed a little abashed when he admitted that there are actually (GASP) two mistakes he knows of in the first four volumes: Once a proofreader missed a typo and they got Artello instead of Martello and once he (Gene) made an obscure mistake which he doubts anyone will ever notice. Damn, I wish the rest of the authors and publishers were that good - most of them don't seem to care! See you all at WORLDCON! I`m registered at the Marriot Friday through Sunday nights, so leave a message and let`s get together. Bill DeVaughan ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 86 17:30:25 GMT From: houligan!dmasiell@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: sexy_sf From: Marty Walsh <MJWCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> > Back in June I posted a request for erotic SF favorites. I >have begun compiling the list that hopefully more people will add >to as time goes by. (Hint hint hint...) A short story that sticks in my mind is "A Boy And His Dog" by (I think) Harlan Ellison (my apologies if I am incorrect). The story was subsequently made into a movie, but with most of the sex removed. An earlier response to the above also mentions "Venus on the Half Shell" by Trout and Farmers Riverworld saga and "Blown". In fact both books were written by Jose' Philip Farmer. "Venus on the Half Shell" was a book mentioned several times in the Kurt Vonnegut book "Sirens of Titan" (or was it Breakfast of Champions?). Upon reading Vonneguts book Farmer was intrigued by the character Trout and Trout's book, and received permission from Vonnegut to bring Venus on the Half Shell to life, so to speak, writing as Kilgore Trout. ------------------------------ Date: 0 0 00:00:00 CDT From: <mooremj@eglin-vax> Subject: SF Erotica I've been waiting for someone to post these, but nobody has...am I the only one who's read them? The Love Machine (These Lawless Worlds #1), Pinnacle, 1984 Scales of Justice (These Lawless Worlds #2), Pinnacle, 1984 by "Jarrod Comstock". These books are sexy, decently written, have appealing characters, quite funny (also punny), and generally a win. #3 and #4 were supposed to come out back in *1984*, but I'm still waiting...and still wondering who "Comstock" really is. NOT recommended: The "Spaceways" books by "John Cleve" (originally andrew j. offutt but later taken over by somebody else whose name escapes me.) Zzzzz... Marty Moore mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 86 14:06:34 GMT From: jhunix!ins_apmj@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick M Juola) Subject: Re: books into films (Lensman!) sewilco@mecc.UUCP (Scot E. Wilcoxon) writes: >Well, if you want quantity and variety I suggest Smith's >"Lensman".... A Japanamated (Japanese animation, to the uninitiated) version of Lensman has been done. Most of it was done with computers, I think. At any rate, I don't care if another version never makes it to the screen; the animation in this film causes Olympic judges to crawl out of my bureau holding signs saying "10.0." If any of you get a chance at a con or something to see Lensman, DO IT! It's the best animation I've ever seen. Period. Pat Juola Hopkins Maths {seismo!umcp-cs|ihnp4!whuxcc|allegra!hopkins}!jhunix!ins_apmj ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 86 15:51:13 GMT From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu (A Andrews) Subject: Maximum Overdrive = Maximum Dumb! Saw the movie last night. On a scale of 1 to 10, it rates about a two, down there below LIFEFORCE, about on a par with the TV show STARLOST. Can't imagine why King allowed such a DUMB movie to be made. Poor acting, unbelievable situations, the only good thing about the show was the music by AC/DC. arlan ------------------------------ Date: Sat 2 Aug 86 17:02:09-EDT From: Cthulhu <AD0R@tb.cc.cmu.edu> Subject: Dr. Phibes I don't think Phibes was dead. He was certainly disfigured something fierce, but not dead. They were, of course, pretty good movies. There are two movies that I've seen that I *really* liked, but not a lot of people seem to have ever heard of. One was called Spectre, and stared Robert Culp. I heard a rumor once that it was a tv pilot. The second is called Equinox, and seemed to have a *lot* of Lovecraftiness to it, even though it tried to stay within the normal devil/demon world. There was also a movie called Dr. Strange, or something like that, that I found to bear quite a resemblance to Lovecraft's Hypnos. Anyone else? ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 86 19:38:52 GMT From: MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET Subject: Re: Star Trek I (was new TV series) caf@omen.UUCP (Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX) says: >STTMP was a serious science fiction movie, addressing questions of >a possible computer-aided human evolution, an interesting topic in >1980. The 2nd and 3rd movies are, by comparision, mere space >operas that don't raise any particularly interesting philosophical >issues. How about mortality? And honor? Mortality was a major theme in ST II. For the first time, we see really see the Enterprise get torn up badly-- no, she's not invulnerable. And yes, the crew is mortal too. Even a Vulcan can die of radiation poisoning. ST III dulled the mortality theme by bringing Spock back-- but made the point that nothing comes without price. Kirk had to give up his son *and* his ship in the process. Honor was a major theme, too, though the movie didn't bring it out as strongly. Vonda McIntyre's novelization did a lot to emphasize the importance of honor to Klingons. Even in the movie, remember Kirk's comment to Sarek near the end-- "If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." No interesting philosophical issues? I disagree strongly. James D. Maloy The Pennsylvania State University Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL UUCP : :akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4:!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 86 05:40:09 GMT From: hoptoad!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: Star Trek cipher@mmm.UUCP (Andre Guirard) writes: >Or how about "Star Trek: The Early Years" in which we follow the >careers of the Enterprise crew before the start of the Enterprise's >five-year mission? They could get younger actors who resemble the >main actors. Vonda McIntyre's next Star Trek novel (all of which are excellent, by the way) will be "Star Trek - the Initial Voyage of the Starship Enterprise", or at least something close to that. Definitely will be about the beginnings of the Enterprise's fame (although I don't know if it's the first voyages of the ship, or the first voyages of Kirk et al.) Mike Farren hoptoad!farren ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 86 18:01:23 GMT From: trwrb!pro@caip.rutgers.edu (Peter R. Olpe) Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series I think renewing the series with a new cast is a fantastic idea. The original cast can make guest appearances, and the new people just might be better than the originals. The worst thing they could do would be to try and copy the characters exactly; i.e. have a Spock-like first officer and a Kirk-like Captain. Instead the producers could come up with a new captain and a new first officer (probably a different alien) and let them develop there own personalities. They might also consider going to a made-for-tv-movie format. Instead of having an episode every week for 1 hour they could have an hour and a half, or a two hour episode every 3 weeks. That would give them more time to develop the stories, add music, add special effects, edit out bad scenes, etc.. Pete Olpe UUCP: {decvax!ucbvax!ihnp4}!trwrb!pro ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 86 17:18:50 GMT From: sunybcs!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Timothy Thomas) Subject: Re: Star Trek and New Characters > The killing of david was a mistake. The older characters MUST be > phased out, and room made for new .... The killing of david was *NOT* a mistake. Nobody liked him, I hated him (he didn't fit the part). The older characters do not HAVE to be phased out, as mentioned many times before, a new crew could be made, with guest spots by the old crew. As long as they have Kirstie Allie and not Robin Curtis playing Saavik, I will be happy. Timothy D. Thomas SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science UUCP: [decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath,rocksvax]!sunybcs!tim CSnet: tim@buffalo, ARPAnet: tim%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 86 01:12:21 GMT From: wucec2!tjs3035@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: The Prisoner's car colour Does anyone remember the license number of the "big black car" in the prisoner. I think the same car appeared at the airport in the episode Many Happy Returns. I haven't watched that episode for about a year, so I'm not sure. Be seeing you. Tom Sullivan Washington University, St. Louis, MO. ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 86 15:17:52 GMT From: trwrb!pro@caip.rutgers.edu (Peter R. Olpe) Subject: Tripods Does anyone know if there are plans to make a third season of Tripods? Or at least a final episode to tie together the loose ends? Does anyone know who to write to? Thanks. Pete Olpe UUCP: {decvax!ucbvax!ihnp4}!trwrb!pro ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 86 16:52:54 GMT From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment mikes@tekecs.UUCP (Michael Sellers) writes: > As a collateral question (and possibly too speculative for these >august groups :-), if you were the one capable of sending something >back, what (or who) would it be? A nuclear bomb. Something that would, by "appearing" in that time, materialize in my grandfather. A computer & manual, destined for T.A. Edison in Menlo Park, NJ. The plans for "Opertion: Overlord" to Die F^uhrer's office (excuse the attempt at an umlaut) in Berlin. In general, anything that would cause an identifiable, unavoidable mistake in time. Great way to verify whether we live in a "parallel" universe, or a "serial" one (cf. "Thrice Upon a Time," by (James P.?) Hogan). melnick@unc.UUCP (Alex Melnick) writes: >Another question is: If you were in the future, knew about the >experiment, and had the equipment to send some material or >information back to the experimenters, WHY WOULD YOU SEND ANYTHING? What if the results could be changed by the exeriment (cf. Heisenberg's Un- certainty Principle :-)? BTW: It was Larry Niven who said that. Niven's example went something like: "OK, I'll go back and deal with the dinosaurs. You go to Ford's lab, duplicate the duplicate, come back with the original duplicate, and I'll meet you a million years ago. Got that?" "Ummm,..." (Larry Niven, in one of the "Flight of the Horse" s.s's; and "Theory and Practice of Time Travel", in "All the Myriad Ways".) (If anyone has the original quote, mind emailing it to me? TIA.) kaufman@orion.arpa kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 86 20:59:25 GMT From: petrus!purtill@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Purtill) Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment Alex <...!mcnc!unc!melnick> writes: >mikes@tekecs.UUCP (Michael Sellers) writes: >> As a collateral question (and possibly too speculative for these >>august groups :-), if you were the one capable of sending >>something back, what (or who) would it be? > > Another question is: If you were in the future, knew about the > experiment, and had the equipment to send some material or > information back to the experimenters, WHY WOULD YOU SEND > ANYTHING? Consider a slightly different scenario. You know about the experiment and have a time machine, but *you know the experiment failed* (nothing showed up at the appropriate time). Now, are you willing send soemthing back? I doubt I would.... mark purtill (201) 829-5127 Arpa: purtill@bellcore.com 435 south st 2H-307 Uucp: ihnp4!bellcore!purtill morristown nj 07960 ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 86 17:24:39 GMT From: sunybcs!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Timothy Thomas) Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment >It seems that in performing the experiment, we're relying on >someone in the future not merely to be able to help us, but also to >want to help us. Is this a reasonable assumption? Think about the logic in that. If we have to rely on somebody in the future to help us, then we will wait forever. If some technology is 'invented' or 'found' because of somebody in the future sending it to us, that would be a contradiction. Ok, fine, we now have some new technology. So in the future (since it has already happened), we send it back to ourselves again. Where did it originate??? There is no way any new knowledge from the future can enter into the present or past because this knowledge must originate someplace, or be found (found meaning discovered on its own or invented, not handed to by some future scientist). Timothy D. Thomas SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science UUCP: [decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath,rocksvax]!sunybcs!tim CSnet: tim@buffalo, ARPAnet: tim%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY ------------------------------ Date: Fri 1 Aug 86 01:42:26-EDT From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.COLUMBIA.EDU> Subject: WorldCon Party? Well, I've seen no discussion so far, so I will bite the bullet and bring it up: What SFL'ers are attending WorldCon, and shall we try to get together? At past WorldCons there has frequently been an '@!%'-sign party, where we all meet, see what each other look like in the flesh, and have a good time. Occasionally some enterprising soul has brought in a portable terminal, allowing us to e-mail a convention report from the party. Please note: I AM NOT VOLUNTEERING TO HOST A PARTY IN MY ROOM!!! I just want to start the ball rolling. While I can contribute materially and financially to a get-together, I value my peace of mind too much to donate my space. Who out there is interested? Saul, in the past, you have set up a special mailing list for WorldCon attendees. Will you do it this time? Or should I try to act as mail coordinator? (I am not too adept at getting mail out to Usenet or BITNET). Interested people should send me e-mail. If Saul sets up a list, I will pass the addresses on to him. Peter Trei oc.trei@cu20b.arpa [Moderator's Note: Unfortunately, I don't have the time to handle any of this. The volume of mail for the digest is *huge* and I'm barely keeping up with it (or my work). If anyone else wishes to handle this, be my guest. Only keep me informed, I plan to be there!] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Aug 86 1012-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #226 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 4 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 226 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (14 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Jul 86 19:12:42 GMT From: fortune!stirling@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick Stirling) Subject: Re: ALIENS - public domain idea.... mjranum@gouldsd.UUCP writes: >Few years ago I gave away a whole bunch of "ALIEN" t-shirts In >green letters across the chest "ALIEN" then underneath, a large >uneven blotch of red silk-screen paint, with a big hole ripped into >it with scissors.... I've seen in shops a similar idea, except that the shirts had a plastic model of the baby Alien ripping its way out of the shirt - Yuck! patrick {ihnp4, hplabs, amdcad, ucbvax!dual}!fortune!stirling ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 86 14:12:35 -0500 From: Wes Miller <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA> Subject: ALIENS, etc flame on! I just finished reading about 2 dozen messages from you folks out there nitpicking the ***** out of ALIENS. Why can't you folks just enjoy a good movie without finding some fault! Most of the discussions centered around small points that are either fully explained in the book or can be logically explained dozens of other ways. Most of it sounds just plain stupid!!! It gets to the point where I start skipping messages because I can't stand the trivial complaints. There isn't (and probably won't be) a perfect movie, at least not to please everyone out there. But who cares if the explosions weren't big enough...d'ya ever hear of duds...anyway if it were a bigger bang Ripley wouldn't have survived to tell the tale...everyone liked it...with exceptions. If you folks could only hear yourselves. ****** FLAME OFF ****** Here's an interesting theory. How did the Aliens get on the first alien spacecraft. How about the a queen alien (drifting in space) latched on to a passing spacecraft. How does the queen get into space? Ask Ripley! Since we know that the Aliens can survive in space (from the first movie), there may be ALIENS III, IV, etc. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jul 86 18:40:34 GMT From: cblpe!apc@caip.rutgers.edu (Alan Curtis) Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE) brucec@tekgen.UUCP (Bruce Cheney) writes: >4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space >ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them, >they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only glimmer >of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an elevator. Wrongo! The aliens also cut the power to the "place they were holed up", prompting someone (I missed who) to say: "But they're only animals!" OR some such quote. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jul 86 20:09:51 GMT From: cblpe!apc@caip.rutgers.edu (Alan Curtis) Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE) What you all seem to forget, is that mom just fought a cargo loader, fell into a pit, and got landed on by same loader! I am surprised, given the general weakness of all of the aliens in ALIENS, that she could/would even reach the shoe! ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 86 12:50:09 GMT From: cblpe!apc@caip.rutgers.edu (Alan Curtis) Subject: Re: Bughunt! (ALIENS, SPOILERS, SPOILERS) Theory: Some VP finds out about the bugs and so sticks syntho man on the Nostromo and reroutes course. Now, the ship does not come back at all. Do you think VP is going to fess up? Not on your life! 37 years later (Ripley takes 57 years to hear that they have been conolonizing for 20 years) when the decide to colonize, VP is retired or really afraid to fess up..... Simple? alan curtis ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jul 86 18:44:31 GMT From: cblpe!apc@caip.rutgers.edu (Alan Curtis) Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE) thome@rochester.UUCP (Mike Thome) writes: >Agreed - I was very suprised when it was revealed that the shuttle >was parked on the ground (with the door left open) after so much >care at the time of the first "battle drop" - touching down just >long enough to drop off the ground transport, then zipping away... >on the other hand, we all know how incompetant the guy in charge >was... BTW, replenishment of supplies is a round trip in any case, >unless you leave the transport on the ground. Remeber, when they wanted to bring the APCII down from the ship, it was about an hour trip! I would want the APCI on the ground, but with doors closed and people on guard. ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 86 21:49 EDT From: Dave.Touretzky@A.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: aliens home world This is pure speculation, or maybe extrapolation. The aliens don't have a home world because they're not naturally-evolved creatures. The aliens are a weapon developed by some other intelligent race. What a weapon! All their masters have to do is drop a few of those babies onto an enemy ship or drop a few hundred onto a planet, and then sit back and wait for the screaming to end and the blood to dry. No wonder the Company was itching to get its hands on them: they're as clean as a neutron bomb, but smarter, and self-reproducing. The pilot of the alien ship may have been carrying a cargo of these weapons when one got out and all hell broke loose, hence his warning beacon that the ship was now hot. Or perhaps the pilot's race was at war with the race the created the aliens, and he was just another casualty. ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 86 16:44:08 GMT From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton) Subject: ALIENS - Alien intelligence, biology & Jones the Cat 1) It's still not certain how intelligent the creatures are. We know the Queen is intelligent enough to use an elevator and understand a gun, and we know she can give orders to drones. Perhaps this is a total hive culture and she is the only intelligent one? Perhaps she has long distance control over drones, and ordered the power cut in the colony. (Perhaps the power was simply cut at the power plant naturally) The drones and fighters (did there seem to be several body types?) have no understanding of weapons, crashing a flier or other technology. They fight with no regard for personal safety. They do know the difference between an enemy (whom they kill) and a possible host (whom they take back to the nest). 2) The concept of the Queen was not in the first movie, and in fact there was stuff in the book "Alien" which contradicted the Queen concept. In the book, the creature took the captured humans into the hold and strung them up as cocoons. This could either be a) a hole in the story, b) an indication that as ultimate survivors any of the species can become a queen when isolated or c) evidence that the creatures are so instinctual that they do this no matter what. Anyway, unless the creature on the Nostromo did turn into a queen, Jones the Cat is safe. I think the director deliberately concentrated on the cat just to annoy you, knowing everybody expected the cat to be the carrier. 3) In a totally different direction, the crashed ship that was the original hive was completely decked out in Alien style. So was the reactor basement, but in a very different way. The reactor basement was a total mess, while the crashed ship seemed very much designed as an alien warren. The curves and walls all seemed made to be alien hive. The machines looked similar. The pilot had a neat hole in her abdominal bone structure, as though it was intentional (a vagina) and not a symptom of violence. (If you think about it, these ultimate survivors aren't very ultimate if they need to steal other creatures to breed. Perhaps this is simply a preferred method, and they are capable of doing it themselves.) But for the aliens to have space travel doesn't match the hive I described above. On the other hand, perhaps they have workers, fighters and thinkers, and perhaps the thinkers are also those who mate with the Queen. All in all the movie was superb, but the ending in the mother ship was weak. The fight in the waldo-suit didn't make any sense to me. If I escaped behind the bulkhead, I would come back with a grenade launcher, not a loader. ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 86 20:13:23 GMT From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER) It just occurred to me the other day while watching a report on medical effects of being in space... The human body doesn't hold up well under prolonged zero-gravity conditions. Bones lose calcium, among other things. Also, I would suspect that artificial gravity is very expensive for power consumption and even worse for interfering with FTL drives. Gravity involves warped space, and if this drive does anything similar, the two fields might well interact violently. So, you sleep the crew because they would otherwise end up with physical problems. There's an android along because they're designed NOT to lose it under zero-gee (milk for blood; can't lose calcium :-) and they might be needed should emergency require someone to spend long time in zero-gee. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 86 12:11:18 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com Subject: re: Mark Leeper's review of ALIENS From: mtgzz!leeper (Mark R. Leeper) > ...In specific, the creature in the first film was invulnerable to > flame throwers, I think. It seems to me that the new creatures of > the same species are not.... I'm not sure that this is the case. I partially agree with your point. When I came out of the film, it *seemed* to me that these Aliens were much too easy to kill, but that's just a superficial impression. First, it's not clear that the Alien in the original was invulnerable to the flamethrowers, as the Nostromo crew never really had a chance to use them against it (think about it, did any of them actually get a chance to shoot?). Secondly, consider the fact that the flamethrowers in the original were jerry-rigged, and thus not likely as powerful as the ones that the Marines had. Thirdly, the Marines also used shells which penetrated the Aliens' exoskeletons and exploded from inside. Much nastier than flamethrowers. > Another problem is the introduction of "soft characters." The > film introduces a child character. It is a serious mistake > because scriptwriters are bound by certain unwritten rules akin to > chivalry about what can and cannot befall weak and sympathetic > characters like children.... That depends on the director. Recall that Bruce's second victim in JAWS was a young boy. Recall also the scene in ALLIGATOR in which the young boy "walked the plank" into the swimming pool and became Purina Gator Chow. Now, granted, these were not major characters like Newt was, but they do indicate that the "unwritten rule" against doing in children is not always followed. In fact, when I saw the film, I knew that Newt would come through OK, but when she was hauled away by the Alien, for just a minute I *doubted* that conviction. To me, just having even that small amount of doubt indicates Cameron's strength as a filmmaker. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 86 12:46:17 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com Subject: re: Music from ALIENS From: utastro!tmca (Tim Abbott) > Actually I was rather pleased to hear the Gayenne Ballet Suite > during the title and credit sequences (it was used in 2001 to > convey the idea of 18+ months of routine as Discovery journeyed to > Jupiter.) surely this must have been some form of tribute to the > all-time greatest of sf movies. (in fact the music was doctored > very slightly, possibly beyond the limits of straight > "rearrangement"). Knowing Horner (probably the biggest hack in film music), it was there because it was also used in the original ALIEN (in the brief scene in which Dallas was relaxing by himself in the shuttle), not because it was in 2001. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 86 19:39:59 GMT From: peora!joel@caip.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Asimov's 1st Law and Aliens After thinking about it awhile, I have decided that although the rule that Bishop quoted, sounded similar to Asimov's 1st law of robotics, that in practice it must have been something much different. A robot or android programmed with Asimov's 1st law couldn't be used as crew on a military vessel, since it would do everything in its power to prevent the humans aboard from putting themselves into dangerous situations, even if the humans ordered it to do so. An Asimovian robot would have sabotaged the lander, rather than let the Marines land on a dangerous planet. This, of course, doesn't address the problems that would ensue if they were fighting human opponents. I think that Asimov's novel 'The Naked Sun' makes this point explictly. Joel Upchurch @ CONCURRENT Computer Corporation Southern Development Center 2486 Sand Lake Road/ Orlando, Florida 32809/ (305)850-1031 {decvax!ucf-cs, ihnp4!pesnta, vax135!petsd, akgua!codas}!peora!joel ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 86 20:22:19 GMT From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: Aliens re:the explosion of the reactor donch@tekirl.UUCP (Don Chitwood) writes: >> ..it is *NEXT* *TO* *IMPOSSIBLE* for a nuclear plant to explode >> as they had it. > >I specifically remember them referring to a FUSION power plant. Well, fusion reactions are pretty unlikely to run away. It's difficult even to *sustain* a fusion reaction without the mass of a good size star close at hand. >But then...the company is cheap and who's to criticize how they go >about opening up a planet. They may take the risks of a >super-power plant with inherent dangers just to minimize costs. >The rats!) Yeah. Someone suggested that the explosion was somehow the result of the terraforming plant... I'd feel more comfortable with that. Also, I seem to remember when they were discussing the upcoming explosion they mentioned something about the company using a certain type of system... potentially dangerous... I'll have to go back and see it again. But the idea of a fusion plant just up and exploding,,, Nah... Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: ALIENS -- \"You're so cute, let me hug your face!\" Date: 1 Aug 86 20:30:27 GMT wall@boves.dec.com (David F. Wall DTN 297-6882) writes: >I thought the alien that eventually wasted the dropship simply >scampered aboard when the dropship dumped off the APC. Those >little buggers are fast. My recollection is that it got aboard while the dropship was perched on top of the building. One scene has the co-pilot running back inside just before the ill-fated take-off. At least at that time, the ramp was down. Who knows how long it was down before then? >How come the Alien aboard the Nostromo was so huge (the sucker >stood at least 2.5 meters by the end) and so many of the Aliens on >LV-426 were man-size? It's been awhile since I saw the original Alien, but I remember the alien as not growing to more than man high. I remember because it struck me at the time as a very convenient size to hide a man inside a costume. Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Aug 86 1039-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #227 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 4 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 227 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Jul 86 20:41:26 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #200 acw@ELEPHANT-BUTTE.SCRC.Symbolics.COM writes: >I'm surprised that Sarima couldn't translate "Ungoliant". If >"Cirith Ungol" is "the Pass of the Spider", and "Iant Iaur" is "Old >Bridge", mightn't "Ungol-iant" be "Old Spider"? It *could* be, but that is not how Tolkien handles it. Remember, Sindarin is a very synthesizing language, so words with quite different origins can come out similar. Tolkien actually treats Ungoliant as "Ungol-liant" where "liant" is a derivative of a root meaning "weaving/twining", and he originally had "ungol" mean "spider web", though he seems to have changed his mind on that. Thus, it is hard to determine what his concept of the meaning of the name was by the time The Silmarillion was published. Of course in a few cases he is known to have completely revised his handling of a word. That is he kept the original form but treated it totally differently in his later works. So it *is* possible that "Old Spider" is what he was using in later writings. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 86 20:20:47 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Tolkien WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA writes: > First, we get a message from Mr Dalton that states that the >author of LotR is not the final authority on the book he wrote. >And then, Mr Milne (who seems to be an authority, with a lot of >carefully thought out and well presented views on Middle Earth) >goes and agrees with him. NOW WAIT JUST A MINUTE!!!!!! > Middle Earth is not a real place. It would be really nice if >it were, and I would be in line to buy tickets to the place on the >first flight out. But, the whole carefully thought out, well >researched place is only a creation - it doesn't exist. Therefore, >it doesn't have an objective reality apart from what Mr Tolkien has >presented us with. True enough, but a large part of the *fun* of Middle Earth is that you *can* pretend that it is real and make sense doing it! Sure, we all know it is just a story, but we like to apply Willing Suspension of Disbelief even while we are talking about it. It make for some fun conversations. So, when we place ourselves inside the mythos of Middle Earth, we have accepted the stories own premise, that it is a translation of a *far* older work. In that context we, of course, discuss things from the point of view of a "serious" historian trying to make sense out of a very incomplete account. > LotR is a novel, a story, recounting the destruction of the One >Ring. The other books are histories relating in more detail the >past, and even the 'present' (in terms of LotR) of Middle Earth. I >see no reason that the Silmarillion, especially (tho some of the >more recent books are getting more and more fragmentary and >contradictory), cannot be taken as the truth as it exists in Middle >Earth. Mr Tolkien was a master, but it doesn't seem all that >likely that he would conjure up mis-facts about the world he was >creating, just because he was creating history and legend. After >all, wouldn't we all like the legends of the real world to be true? >Well, Tolkien's legends were in Middle Earth. True, but even Tolkien himself talked about Middle Earth as if it were real and he were "only" a scholar researching it. He would often cast his perceptions of it in a (true) historian's uncertainties. This allowed him to change his mind by saying that he had "gotten wrong" before, without having to actually step out of the mythos. For instance I have a description of the case endings in Quenya written by Tolkien, it is full of "maybe"s and "can't be determined from the existing corpus"s. Is this any different than what we are doing? Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jul 86 01:36:48 GMT From: ptsfd!djo@caip.rutgers.edu (Dan'l Oakes) Subject: Re: Who was Tom Bombadil? friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes: >From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> >>Goldberry (and who might she be, hmmmm?) tells Frodo that for Tom >>to master all his land "would indeed be a burden". If he were >>Iluvatar, he would not only be the land's master, but its creator, >>and mastery of it could scarcely be a burden. > > Reread the opening chapters of The Silmarillion! The >original home of the Valar in Ea, during the time of the two >Globes, was in fact in the area later known as Middle Earth. It was >only after Morgoth showed his true colors and destroyed the Globes >that Valinor was built and the Valar moved out of Middle Earth(for >the most part). Don't recall the location of the first Valaheim being specified that exactly. Sure an' it could have been in the region we know as Middle-Earth (i.e., the lands to the east of old Beleriand), but the world was changed so much in the battles that followed, that I have serious doubts as to whether any such claim can be strongly supported. In particular, I think the rooting-out of Utumno changed the area beyond all hope of any one/one correspondence. >>"Fatherless" was actually part of the Elves' name for him, and may >>or may not have been accurate. True, but Tom's claim to be "oldest" doesn't really allow for parents. >>I might even hazard a guess that Goldberry was also a Maia, >>originally serving the water Valar (whose name escapes me just >>now). > >Indeed, I think the case for Goldberry is even stronger than >for Bombadil. I'd say that as "the river's daughter" she's probably at least part Maia -- most likely descended from Osse or/and Uinen. >>For myself, though, I prefer to have Bombadil unclassified (my >>preference, as opposed to what I only find reasonable). I find >>that tidying unexplained matters into conveniently available >>categories tends to deprive them of some of their richness. >>Personally, I'd sooner have Bombadil marvellous and unexplained >>than "yet another Maia; we already know about those". > > I will admit that Bombadil and Shelob are very unusual and >difficult to fully explain. Indeed it may be that some of the Ainur >who entered Ea were of a different sort, not either Maiar or Valar. Hmmm... For what it's worth, Bombadil started out as the subject of a cutsey little poem, "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil," wherein Gberry also appears. And though the book containing "TAoTB," a book by the same title, appeared well after LOtR, either Carpenter's biography or "The Letters of JRRT" will make it clear that the poem was written BEFORE his appearance in The Fellowship. It seems, in fact, that the appearance of Tom was a spur-of-the-moment thing with JRRT, using a character he liked/loved in an odd context, and was just a moment of whimsey -- which he never fully rationalized into the context of Middle-Earth. That he is NOT a Maia is clear, however; the Ring had no power over him (nor, I seem to recall, he over it), yet Gandalf's fear to take the Ring makes it clear that the Ring DOES have the power to corrupt a Maia. If we must have explanations (and mustn't we?), then the best we can do is put a smiling face on the situation and call him an "earth spirit" or some such. I realize full well how unsatisfactory this is, but some comments in the Letters hint that this may have been the direction in which Tolkien's thoughts regarding Bombadil were headed. Best of wishes, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 86 17:21 PDT From: newman.pasa@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Tolkien as Middle-Earth Omniscient Just a small point. Many authors claim that they do not know everything about what they write. They admit that they learn about their creations through the act of writing. In fact, look at MZB's notes in "Lythande" for an example. So, if Tolkien was one of these kinds of authors, his writings may not be the ultimate authority. Dave ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 86 01:32:02 GMT From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) Subject: Re: Who was Tom Bombadil? djo@ptsfd.UUCP (Dan'l Oakes) writes: >It seems, in fact, that the appearance of Tom was a >spur-of-the-moment thing with JRRT, using a character he >liked/loved in an odd context, and was just a moment of whimsey -- >which he never fully rationalized into the context of Middle-Earth. > >That he is NOT a Maia is clear, however; the Ring had no power over >him (nor, I seem to recall, he over it), yet Gandalf's fear to take >the Ring makes it clear that the Ring DOES have the power to >corrupt a Maia. Actually, Tom holds some power over the Ring. He could make it disappear. And now, for some wanton speculation. I think Bombadil is a side effect of Melkor's discord to the Song of Illuvatar. 1) Bombadil is a completely free spirit, within his domain. I think that was more or less what Melkor was trying to do: not get bound into the Song, but be independent. 2) Neither Gandalf nor Elrond know very much about him. They know about balrogs, about Sauron, about the Valar and the Maia and the rest; but Gandalf knows remarkably little about a major league entity in his own back yard. This is some evidence that he isn't from the main line Song. 3) The Ring has no power over him. Would it have power over Morgoth? I don't think so. Ditto Sauron, of course, but for different reasons (his power was bound up in the Ring). 4) The good from evil theme. There is the whole bit about not killing Gollum because some unforseen good might yet come from him. Gandalf makes this point quite a few times. Where does he get this peculiar idea from? What good had ever come from Morgoth, Sauron, Ancalagon or the rest of the baddies in the mythos. This hope that good can come out of bad is, from Gandalf's view, not very supportable. Now if Bombadil is a side effect of Melkor's song, Gandalf can have a good reason to believe in sparing Gollum. The major point against (other than no real shred of plausable evidence) the proposition is the assertion that evil doesn't create anything. That would mean Melkor's song couldn't create Bombadil directly. But Illuvatar rechanneled the discord into his Song, so perhaps that's sufficient to cause creation. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 86 22:38:14 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> To: Tharp <ops@ncsc.arpa> Subject: Re: Who or What Is Gandalf? From: Jessie Tharp ops@ncsc >The origin of Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron is detailed in the >_Silmarillon_, as are the origins of all other creatures, even >Shelob and Tom Bombadill. I, and others I'm sure, would be grateful if you cite exactly where Shelob and Tom Bombadil are detailed in "Silmarillion". I am not aware of such a place, and have always assumed that the material of LotR and "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil" was all we have. Do I have an unexpected treat awaiting me? Thanks very much, Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 86 23:06:19 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: Tolkien's blue wizards From: kagraves@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Kenneth A Graves) >I guess the following: The Valar see that Middle Earth cannot be >home for the elves much longer. The Noldor and Teleri that remain >are leaving via the Grey Havens and other ports. The Avari, >however, have not (clearly?) heard the call of the sea, but are >still wandering Middle and Eastern Earth. Thus two followers of >Orome, Alatar and Pallando, are dispatched to attempt to find the >remnants of the Avari and extend the invitation of the Valar. Why >followers of Orome? Because 1) he alone of the Valar knows the >eastern lands, and 2) he gave the initial invitation at Cuivienen >and is still interested in bringing the Avari to Aman. Did they >succeed in this mission? No marching of the Avari is recorded, but >there are many ways to the Sea that don't pass by Gondor. Not impossible, but doesn't it seem rather unlikely? 1. *ALL* the Istari were supposed to be emissaries of the Valar to aid in rallying the free peoples of the West against Sauron, in the closest thing to an open display of power the Valar could risk. Surely saddling two of them with an extra mission of such import and scope would seriously compromise their usefulness in their primary purpose. 2. Why bother? What is coming to an end is the co-dominion of Elves and Men as the 2 predominant races of Middle Earth: but it's a big continent, with many places of retreat for those who don't want contact with the outside world. Those Elves who don't want to lose Middle Earth, and they were many, would have plenty of places to live beyond the knowledge of Men. Certainly it's not up to the Valar to mandate that all the Firstborn shall leave. We know that many of the Avari stayed on in Lorien after Galadriel had left; even Celeborn remained awhile among them, though it no longer held for him the attraction it used to have. And of all the Elves of Mirkwood, the only one I know to have left was Legolas, following Elessar's death. So it seems quite unlikely to me that the Valar would have taken on anything so massive, without much hope of success (the Avari felt no attraction for Valinor or the sea, never having been there), and certainly at such an inappropriate time, when the Avari, along with all the other Free Peoples, should have been uniting against Sauron. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 86 20:03:25 GMT From: weitek!robert@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Who was Tom Bombadil? djo@ptsfd.UUCP (Dan'l Oakes) writes: > That he is NOT a Maia is clear, however; the Ring had no power > over him (nor, I seem to recall, he over it), yet Gandalf's fear > to take the Ring makes it clear that the Ring DOES have the power > to corrupt a Maia. Yes and no. The people who feared using the Ring, such as Gandalf and Galadriel, were in a position where they desperately needed the power the Ring would give them. For them, the Ring would be a constant temptation. Look at the reactions of Gandalf, Galadriel, and Boromir to the Ring. The Ring corrupted through by being too useful not to use. Bombadil had everything he wanted, and had no desire whatever to dominate other creatures. The Ring was intended specifically as an instrument of domination, and as such was completely useless to Bombadil. This is stated fairly clearly in "The Council of Elrond" on Book II, I believe. > If we must have explanations (and mustn't we?), then the best we > can do is put a smiling face on the situation and call him an > "earth spirit" or some such. No offense, but I find that to be quite absurd. The Ring's weak power over the hobbits shows that it corrupts in proportion to the wearer's desire to do great deeds. Bilbo's aspirations were small, and he got off very lightly. Bombadil's are non-existent, and the Ring had no grip on him. Robert Plamondon UUCP: {turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Aug 86 01:47:10 EDT From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU> Subject: Knowledge To: blade!jcn@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU From: blade!jcn@caip.rutgers.edu (Julio Cesar Navas) >Tolkien wrote nothing concrete (perhaps this and that). Therefore, >his readers would never really know why Sauron did what he did. >Tolkien, however, would know. That isn't necessarily true. An author may have the ambiguous situation visualized as an ambiguous situation. He may not have decided which way it really is. ...Keith ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Aug 86 0826-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #228 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 5 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 228 Today's Topics: Books - Biggle & Van Vogt & Wren, Films - Bladeruner & Lensman, Music - Silent Running (10 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thursday, 31 Jul 1986 10:01:55-PDT From: routley%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Re: Biggle I have a few books by Lloyd J. Biggle, Jr. in my collection. The ones I have are as follows: The Metallic Muse Collection Monument Novel The Rule of the Door Collection Silence is Deadly Collection The World Menders Novel Note the last title. It is NOT the book by the same name by Marion Zimmer Bradley. The other titles mentioned (War of the Ghosts (?), etc) I am not familiar with. kevin routley ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 86 21:41:21 GMT From: tekirl!donch@caip.rutgers.edu (Don Chitwood) Subject: Alien, original concept? When I first saw Alien, the original, the implanted embryo brought to mind my first reading of such an idea. A. E. van Vogt's VOYAGE OF THE SPACE BEAGLE, contains a super-alien that is picked up in interstellar space by a research ship. This creature is the last of his race and has the prime motive of implanting embryos he's carrying into humans so as to recreate his kind. This creature has the ability to pass through matter, thus evading capture and making implantation into the humans a simple matter. In the story, no embryos ever come to term, but one human is killed while the creature is fishing around inside the man's chest looking for a likely body cavity to place the embryo. Van Vogt doesn't go in for gore, to his credit, but he does manage to get quite a bit of tension going in the story. ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 86 22:49:24 GMT From: glasgow.glasgow!ferguson@caip.rutgers.edu (Alex Ferguson) Subject: Re: The Doomsday Effect: A baaaaaaaad book from Baen [ In which T. Wren ] >Talks about "antiphotons" as if these were current knowledge. >Gives them the magic property of causing a black hole to expell >it's mass. Says Hawking knew all about this from the start. >Right. I haven't read this, and the other described glitches sound fairly atrocious, but this has a touch of verisimilitude. Black holes *may* expel their mass as Hawking Radiation, by means of spontaneous pair-production and subsequent capture of one of the quanta. I can't actually remember the particles involved, and the process is entirely hypothetical (as are black holes of course) but the idea is certainly due to Hawking. Alex Ferguson. JANET : ferguson@cs.glasgow.ac.uk USENET : uk!cs.glasgow.ac.uk!ferguson ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 86 22:42:08 GMT From: usc-oberon!bishop@caip.rutgers.edu (Brian Bishop) Subject: Re: Blade Runner doesn't measure up. Re: do androids dream Subject: ... chabot@3d.dec.com writes: >I disagree: there are very obvious cables attached to the car, >especially noticeable when it's taking off. Hmmm...sharp are you, Jedi knight! But still, this movie creams 98% of what else is out there, visually. >But even more than that, I was immensely disappointed in the plot, >having been a fan of Dick for years. Perhaps I should not have >prep'ed so much by reading DADOES, but that was six months before >the release of BR. It was more like Mike Hammer in the 21st >Century than a P K Dick story. I too am a BIG fan of PKD, but I can deal with the differences. Sure, I would have *loved* for them to make an accurate film of DADOES, but nobody (but us fans) would have gone to see it. They explore different aspects of the same idea -- the book concerned itself with why the humans were different from the androids (empathy & empathy boxes, mercerism, etc.), while the movie concerned itself mainly with how they were the same (yeah, yeah, I know I'm oversimplifying - but I'm talking broad themes here). This is emphasized by details like Roy & Rick's hand problems in the fight scene. A few details that were added would only be enjoyable in a movie (the hologram magnification bit, to some degree the street vendors with electron microscopes...). In my mind, this reflects well on Ridley Scott. If you're going to change the book, do it right (though I did hear that PKD wanted to make them change it from "based on the novel.." to "inspired by the novel..."). Was I do find disconcerting, however, is how plot detail from the book (and other books) wind up somewhere else. All I can think of is that Ridley wanted to keep as many of Dick's ideas as he could, even though he couldn't follow the book exactly. There's no problem with that, eh? Except for the empathy questions, which he lifted straight from the book, even though they sound very bizarre without the understanding that animals are mostly scarce to extinct (although this could be an attempt to be somewhat mystical about how you test for human empathy). >Perhaps because of its trite plot ending, it could be called a >"classic science fiction movie", but I wouldn't call it classic >science fiction. My opinion of BR was that it was visually >interesting, intellectually boring, and morally inconsistent. The ending is trite for a PKD story (I personally think his typewriter would have refused to put the words on paper - A Philip K. Dick "happy ending" usually means the characters die....well...no, Ubik wasn't too happy. OK, A Philip K. Dick happy ending is a reality with no sharp edges :-) Anyway, it isn't too bad for the movie (c'mon, Harrison Ford HAS to get the girl). I've been told that the ending was slapped on in a rush, and that the overhead shots are from The Shining. Makes sense. OK. Now here's what's terribly right about BR: While the 'cop narration' is corny, the rest of the dialogue has more great lines than any other movie I've seen. One I haven't seen yet: "If only you could see what I've seen with your eyes." - Roy Baty The art direction is amazing. If you haven't spotted these goodies, next time check 'em out: the holograms all over the place (almost anything that looks like a photo) - there's one where they smooth-cut from a photo to a live shot - really nice; there are about three shots where Rick just misses Leon leading up their big fight scene; the 'Jawas' that are on Rick's car (light-up eyes); of course the great scene where Rick drinks a shot of clear liquid and his blood mixes with it (if you've seen it, ya know it looks better than it sounds).... The idea of the androids coming back to meet their maker (which is not in the book) Finally, while I agree that this is not a simple retelling of Frankenstein, there are Frankenstein elements in it, which are highlighted by two shots where Roy and Pris look like Frankenstein and the Bride of Frankenstein (respectively). brian bishop bishop@usc-ecl.ARPA bishop@usc-oberon.ARPA {uscvax,sdcvdef,engvax,scgvaxd,smeagol}!usc-oberon!bishop.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 86 19:50:17 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: books into films (Lensman!) ins_apmj@jhunix.ARPA (Patrick M Juola) writes: >A Japanamated (Japanese animation, to the uninitiated) version of >Lensman has been done. I don't care if another version never makes >it to the screen; the animation in this film causes Olympic judges >to crawl out of my bureau holding signs saying "10.0." Yeah, the *animation* was good, unfortunately, for a Lensman fan, they mutilated the *story*. Really! Clarissa McDougal a "clinging- vine" type!?!? And they left the various effects of the inertialess drive entirely out of the story! And *no* Arisia! Whatever it was it *wasn't a *Lensman* story, it just borrowed some names and a few plot devices from the books. So, yes I would like to see another Lensman movie, one which stayed closer to the feel and style of the books. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 86 02:12:52 GMT From: nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser) Subject: Silent Running There's a song I've been hearing on the radio for a while called "Silent Running". A friend tells me that this is supposed to be the theme music for a new sf movie by the same name. I was wondering if anyone has any further information about this movie/song. Thanks, Nathan Glasser nathan@mit-eddie.uucp (usenet) nathan@xx.lcs.mit.edu (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 86 16:31:28 GMT From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott) Subject: Re: Silent Running Silent Running is an sf movie that has been around for quite a few years now. It was directed by Douglas Trumbull, of 2001 f/x fame, using particularly the f/x that were developed in that film for the reprentation of Saturn, complete with realistic rings, and the now well known matt overlay techniques to depict ships in space. The premise of the film is that Earth is now one giant concrete jungle and the remains of the forests, deserts, etc are incarcerated in giant spaceships in solar orbit out Saturn's way, in the hope that they may eventually be brought back to Earth. BUT, the company decides that they need the ships and orders the crews to destroy the forests and put the ships back into useful service. This is fine by all except one man...see the film for further info (it's worth it). BTW This film contains the original R2-D2's: Hewie, Dewie and Louie, to my mind Star Wars ripped them off. The soundtrack is by some famous female vocalist (tho' I can't remember who right now) which was released years ago and is no doubt deleted by now. There is also a band called Silent Running, but I haven't a clue what they sound like. Tim Abbott ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 86 18:32:53 GMT From: alfke@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (J. Peter Alfke) Subject: Re: Silent Running Let me be one of the first million to say: [1] "Silent Running" is a song by Mike and the Mechanics, a group fronted by Mike Rutherford of Genesis (hell, he has to do something while Phil's singing "one more night..." a few hundred times). [2] "Silent Running" is a decidedly non-new sf movie (released 1973 or so) directed by Douglas Trumbull, special-effects wizard behind 2001 and (I think) The Empire Strikes Back, among others. Basically, we've turned the Earth into a parking lot and put all our vegetation into orbit around Saturn, with 3 guys tending it, etc. Having never heard the song, I have no idea whether it has any relation to the movie. Peter Alfke alfke@csvax.caltech.edu ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 86 20:05:08 GMT From: clarke@h-sc4.harvard.edu (Cam Clarke) Subject: Re: Silent Running The current song "Silent Running" is by Mike & The Mechanics (Mike is Mike Rutherford from Genesis). There is a somewhat old movie called "Silent Running", but the song you mention isn't from it. The movie (must be from around 1977) is very good and worth seeing. The video for "Silent Running" (the song), is a mini-sf-drama in itself, but I don't know if there is or will be a movie made around it. Cam Clarke clarke%h-sc4@harvard.ARPA clarke@h-sc4.HARVARD.EDU clarke@h-sc4.UUCP clarke@HARVUNXU.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 86 10:34:37 GMT From: chapman@calder.Berkeley.EDU (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Silent Running I have the single in question sitting in front of me. Its full title is "Silent Running (On Dangerous Ground)"; it also says "Title track from the movie 'On Dangerous Ground'". No relation to the original "Silent Running" (which, btw, if you've never seen it, can do really weird things to your mind if your drunk or stoned when you see it..). Does anyone know anything about 'On Dangerous Ground'? The only mention of it that I've seen is in connection with this song. Brent ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 86 18:46:01 GMT From: citrin@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (Wayne Citrin) Subject: Re: Silent Running tmca@utastro.UUCP (Tim Abbott) writes: >The soundtrack is by some famous female vocalist (tho' I can't >remember who right now) which was released years ago and is no >doubt deleted by now. There is also a band called Silent Running, >but I haven't a clue what they sound like. The theme song for the film was sung by Joan Baez. It was written, I believe, by Peter Schikele, better known as Professor Peter Schikele, the "discoverer" of P.D.Q. Bach. Wayne Citrin (ucbvax!citrin) ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 86 19:48:52 GMT From: rtech!daveb@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Brower) Subject: Re: Silent Running movie song Silent Running, 1971, Douglas Trumbull's directorial debut, gets *** from Maltin's "Movies on TV." I think that's overrated. An American Airlines spaceship storing the Earth's last remaining plants is told to jettison the cargo and return to commercial service. Bruce Dern, the concerned Botanist, kills the rest of the crew and tries to escape to the outerplanets to save the plants. He is helped by three cute "droid" maintenance robots. The best parts are the 'hard SF' technology sequences. The worst is the then politically chic pro-ecology breast beating. The script was by Deric Washburn, Michael Cimino (Deer Hunter, Heaven's Gate), and Steven Bocho (Hill St. Blues) It has some of the best spaceship interiors ever done (much like the original ALIEN), which were shot on the WWII Aircraft carrier that provided the name of the spaceship (Independence?). Many of the space effects look dated, but the 'through the rings of Saturn' bit remains effective. The vapid closing credits song was sung by Joan Baez. Peter Schickele (a/k/a PDQ Bach) wrote the music. He also produced some of Baez's albums of the period. dB {amdahl, sun, mtxinu, cbosgd}!rtech!daveb ------------------------------ Date: 3 Aug 86 02:14:39 GMT From: eneevax!hsu@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Hsu) Subject: Re: Silent Running I seriously doubt that anybody would _want_ to use the song in a movie. You see, it's already been used as background music in at least two tv shows, most forgettably as a 4 minute filler (terrible recording of a terrible non-album performance) on an equally forgettable episode of Airwolf. If 2001:A Space Odyssey were made today, do you think Kubrick would have used any of that music if it had been first used on Airwolf? Hah! This does not, of course, in any way imply that Kubrick had anything to do with the movie Silent Running, in which Bruce Dern did a good job of looking neurotic. Anybody know where you can buy one of those scooters? David Hsu (301) 454-1433 || -8798 || -8715 Communications & Signal Processing Laboratory Systems Research Center, Bldg 093 The University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 ARPA: hsu@eneevax.umd.edu UUCP: [seismo,allegra,rlgvax]!umcp-cs!eneevax!hsu ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 86 18:04:13 GMT From: kontron!cramer@caip.rutgers.edu (Clayton Cramer) Subject: Re: Silent Running > Having never heard the song, I have no idea whether it has any > relation to the movie. It does not. The theme song to the movie _Silent_Running_ was sung by Joan Baez. I don't remember the name, but it was what got me to the theater to see the movie. The song _Silent_Running_ by Mike & The Mechanics SHOULD have been the theme song to the movie _Red_Dawn_. Clayton E. Cramer ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 86 21:26:37 GMT From: ihlpl!marcus@caip.rutgers.edu (Hall) Subject: Re: Silent Running movie song >Silent Running 1986, Mike (Rutherford) and the Mechanics This could be the song in question. It does have a somewhat sf and the video looks like it contains clips out of a movie. By the way, the songs from the movie are "Rejoice in the Sun" and "Running Silent", there was no song "Silent Running" in the movie. Marcus Hall ..!ihnp4!ihlpl!marcus ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Aug 86 0838-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #229 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 5 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 229 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 31 Jul 86 22:28:58 GMT From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: *ALIENS* (Spoilers) (LONG ARGUMENT) srt@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU (Scott Turner) writes: >Most of the replies to my original objections to *ALIENS* have been >pretty lame. And why are they all cast as "refutations"? I'm not >Ghod handing down the Commandments - it would be acceptable simply >to argue. Because you presented your "objections" in and argumentative and smug style. And the replies were a lot less lame than your original "objections". (There, I can argue by assertion as well as you.:-) >Personally I feel that the movie has to stand on its own and be >internally consistent without reference to a "book" that is written >after the movie and with a conscious intention to explain away >problems in the movie. Bullshit. Movies are edited and trimmed. LOTS of stuff is taken from them in the interests of tight, interesting storytelling. The books are normally written from shooting scripts, although in many cases the books are written first as a treatment. Yes, the movie should stand on its own, but just because they don't stop and say "Scott Turner won't understand this technical point, let us lecture 20 minutes on physics" doesn't mean ALIENS didn't stand on its own. >As for the individual explanations: >Deep Sleep. There's little or no indication in the movie that the >ships have hyperspace capability. Surely the escape pod from the >Nostromo didn't, and it had the same kind of sleep pod. If you are >willing to grant hyperspace, though, you can make up all sorts of >reasons for using deep sleep (see above). The escape pod made it through the "core systems" in about 57 years. I imagine there might be a few stars near us with planets. In 57 years, even at 3/4 lightspeed, you don't get very far. Must be a small number of core systems? Oh, and Acheron, the "rock", was several light-years from Gateway. If they had no FTL of some kind, then how did they get from Gateway to Acheron in less than a month? You tell us, Scott. >As far as using deep sleep to conserve on oxygen/food/living space, >I see several objections. First of all, in a deep space craft you >can carry just about as much as you want, especially of things like >oxygen and food, if you are willing to stick them outside of the >battle structure. You just hook a container of LOX on the outside. >Second, why waste all the time during the journey? Why not use the >time to prepare for the coming mission? This is an emergency >rescue, after all. Finally, there has to be some sort of danger in >using deep sleep. Would you be willing to let yourself be >frozen/chemically slowed to save 17 days? Not me. Food is mass. LOX is mass. There's this neat thing that's been found out about mass. You need FUEL mass to propel INERT mass. You make power trade-offs. If they want to get there quickly, they get rid of anything that isn't essential to the job. You seem to have confused aerodynamics with rocketry. Sure, at our paltry <1/4 lightspeed rates, we don't have to worry about aerodynamics. At higher speeds, ambient dust and gas might well become an issue. Oh, and as for being put into coldsleep, would you be willing to get into a vehicle with inadequate safety devices, driven by a person who works a 10 hour shift, with less than 10 minutes of rest break every three hours, which travels at speeds in excess of 40 mph over heavily travelled, poorly maintained surface roads which are also host to large numbers of other vehicles, of which 1 in 10 are driven by persons under the influence of drugs and alcohol? "Sure, I'll ride the bus downtown." The implication of the film was that they HAD to use Coldsleep. Except where it is technically inaccurate, in a SF movie, one must try to accept the terms of the technology they're presenting (within reasonable bounds). >Using Weapons Under the Thermal Converters. Yes, I was aware that >the "thermal overload" was already underway. That DOESN'T mean >that it was now safe for Ripley to use her weapons in a carte >blanche fashion. If I'm wandering around in a fusion reactor >that's going to overload and blow sky-high in ten minutes, the last >thing I'm going to do is go around shooting the place up and hasten >the process. Ripley was taking a calculated risk. Had you been there, I'm sure you'd have been bugfood just before the tower went up. (anyone know how to do an alien smiley?) >Hovering Out of Sight of the Platform. Justify this all you want. >Clearly the movie-makers just wanted to build a little tension at >this point. It makes no sense at all. There is too much wind >inside a building for a landing craft to hover near the platform? >Yeah, THAT seems likely. And I said hover NEAR the platform, not >OVER the platform. I'm well aware of Newton's laws, thank you, and >I realize that hovering over the platform would have strained the >platform (not to mention putting Ripley in the jet wash as she left >the elevator), but it was just tension building (and cheap movie- >making) to have the craft hovering out of sight. And how would >Bishop know when to return? And why didn't he return immediately? Too much wind, yes, indeed, it DOES seem likely. Try flying a copter next to a cliff wall and you'll find out about shear currents. Turbulence is another feature of those physical laws you got confused about above. How would Bishop know when to return? Scanners, maybe, or perhaps he was simply moving around with the wind currents in order to keep from being blown into a wall. He DID mention that he had to keep moving, when he apologized to Ripley for not being there. >Cheap Movie Making. Ripley's dream. Need I say more? How cheap >can you get? With this I agree. It was interesting when they did it in "American Werewolf in London" but it's been overused since. But this isn't cheap movie making, rather, it's a cheap trick. It was an expensive scene to shoot. >Leaving the Landing Doors Open on the Shuttle. Please don't blame >this on the incompetent commander. He wasn't even there. At any >rate, professional soldiers aren't that dumb - especially not after >they've survived a few missions. They have protocols beaten in to >them, and they follow them. In a large part, that's what makes >them survive. OK, blame it on the pilot. You don't know how long that door was open, either. They cut to the shuttle, which had told earlier to circle and wait. For all we know, the shuttle could have gotten a Bug on Board when the car first took off. >The real objection I have to the movie is that that plot is so >obviously constructed to fit suspense/adventure story needs. Just >look at the kinds of strange plot twists that are used: I will deal with your nits in a second. First, I will argue with your gripe about plot. WHAT DO YOU WANT THE PLOT TO BE, A BLIPPING ROMANCE? It's an adventure/suspense, Scott, not a Miss America Pageant! They did write in a few stupid mistakes on the part of Our Heroes. They also wrote in some pretty good character development, believable dialogue, and very good and consistent background info. >If the marines go in prepared for the Aliens, its a wipeout. They >wear acid resistant armor, take the right sorts of weapons, etc. >To keep that from happening, the Company completely ignores >Ripley's warning. Why? Here's a trusted (in command of a >multi-billion dollar spaceship) employee who's just survived a 57 >year space trip to bring a warning to the Company. Can't the >Company at least try to confirm her story? No, because that means >the marines would go in prepared. And what happened to the >indications in the earlier story that the Company knew about the >Aliens in the first place? NO armor would have worked. The only substance we've seen which isn't dissolved by alien-blood is alien-hide. They DID take "the right kind of weapons" as evidenced by the fact that they KILLED THEM EASILY. They didn't trust Ripley because her story was utterly unbelievable, just the sort of thing they would expect of someone who was hiding the real truth. They DID check up on the story, as everyone else who saw the film was able to tell. And they had no records, for whatever reason, that the Nostromo had encountered the aliens. The indications in the earlier story were that SOMEONE in the Company higher-ups was hoping for something in the way of bioweaponry to come out of this. Failure, coverup, no trace in the records. It fits nicely, thank you. You are complaining now that we have MORE information that it doesn't fit your speculations? >If the marines can get back up to the orbital ship, they blow up >the place and the story's over. So the marines do two *idiotic* >things: Leave the ramp on the landing craft open and unguarded and >take everyone to the surface. Once again, the shuttle didn't STAY on the ground, they landed later. Taking everyone to the surface, well, I wouldn't have done it that way, but maybe the Company could only get one unit of Marines, since they seemed to think they (the marines) were invulnerable and no "bugs" were as tough as they. Whatever the excuse, I agree that there ought to have been backup. >It's a lot more suspenseful if the marines go into the lair >unarmed, so another couple of strange twists: The aliens build >their lair a long way from their food source, under a nuclear >reactor (why?), and the marines don't retreat out to re-arm more >appropriately. The aliens built their lair in a warm, secluded place where the humans didn't go very often, where there was a convenient tunnel leading to the larder (colony) nearby. As for the marines not retreating, THAT is clearly due to the ineptitude of the green lieutenant. They DID change to more appropriate armaments. >In order to get some good firefights, the aliens are constantly >sneaking up on the humans from above or below - as if space marines >would somehow be blind to 3-d tactics. And even if they were once, >wouldn't they catch on sooner or later? The humans were not blind to 3-d tactics, they thought they had closed off the roof accesses. The aliens just had a few holes into the area the humans didn't know about. They DID catch on, eventually. >In order to get Bishop out of the action and build suspense, we >make him pilot the ship down on remote from near the antenna. >First of all, we could build a ship today that could land near a >beacon on automatic. Second, if we can build an android >indistinguishable from a human, wouldn't we put at least an AI >personality on board the orbital ship? Third, why does Bishop have >to pilot using a keyboard and joystick? He doesn't have a remote >plug or radio link built in? First question: landing on automatic under ideal conditions is different from landing under nasty weather with ionization from atmospheric muck. The human pilot nearly botched it on her landing. Automatics would have the same problems. Probably Bishop had to recover control of the ship when it came through the ionization layer. Second question: who knows? Maybe the ship computers WERE AI personalities, but not programmed to handle atmospheric landings? The problem of backups on the ship WAS a major flaw in the script. Third question: Why doesn't he have a built-in plug: who knows? He didn't, Ripley didn't either; if androids are indistinguishable from humans... >And this just goes on and on. It's like a cheap horror film where >sixteen people have been killed in the basement and the heroine >decides to check it out in her nightgown and one flickering candle. >At some point you have to say "C'mon!". I didn't think *Alien* was >too bad in this respect, but *Aliens* reeks of cheap, calculated >movie-making. No, this is exactly the opposite. At no point did Ripley, Hicks, or Newt forget that they were in danger. The Yuppie From Hell was too caught up in his profits to realize that he could be hurt, until it was too late, and the others were grunts, acting in time-honored military grunt style. The point is this: Ripley doesn't want to go there. She has the shuddering horrors at the thought of what the Bugs are like. She decides to purge this by going along, to save SOMETHING from them. The marines start out overconfident, sneering at the descriptions Ripley gives them, and after the standard rewards of hubris, they realize how nasty the bugs really are. Yes, Murphy's Law applies, and the wrong thing happens whenever it is least desirable. However, the strong characters are all women (even the Queen Bug) and at no time are we put in the position of the aliens preying on the humans; there is no rape-fantasy and no punish-them-for-having-sex like in the Friday the 13th (part 2^n) movies. The movie doesn't pretend to be more than a really horrifying thriller, yet it makes statements implicitly about humanity, about strength, about human values. These are almost all very POSITIVE statements. Yes, it was almost TOO tense, and yes, some of the things they did were slightly unbelievable. This is true of just about every movie made. I think ALIENS succeeded better than ALIEN at what it was trying to do. The sequel was a better film than the original. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 86 13:27:25 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com Subject: re: Music from ALIENS From: decwrl!boyajian@akov68.dec.com 1-AUG-1986 12:46 > Knowing Horner (probably the biggest hack in film music), it was > there because it was also used in the original ALIEN (in the brief > scene in which Dallas was relaxing by himself in the shuttle), not > because it was in 2001. I blush to confess that I blew it here. A few hours after I posted the above message, I threw on my tape of ALIEN to check out something, and played the above-mentioned scene. It was *not* the same music. I could have sworn it was, though. C'est la guerre. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 86 15:51:04 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: ALIENS From: sdsioa!brunner (Rob Brunner) > What this means is that these wonderful little creatures had to > come from _somewhere_else_, right? Could there be YAS (yet > another sequel)?!? This one will make enough bucks that they may > want to sell out and produce another run-of-the-mill ALIENS-III > type movie. Too bad, too because I really doubt that they will be > able to reporoduce the quality of this one or come close to > another worth anything, film-wise. They'll end up producing JAS > (just another sequel: not worth much, but box office bucks). Surely you jest. First of all, if the studio just wanted to rake in the bucks, why didn't they film an ALIEN II years ago? As a matter of fact, they had planned a sequel soon after the first film's success was assured, but they didn't want to rush it with just any old script and any old director. What convinced 20th Century Fox to foot the bill for this movie (when they weren't sure that a seven-year later sequel would be financially viable) was that it had a strong script, and James Cameron proved himself capable of a good action movie with THE TERMINATOR. It's certainly true that ALIENS will probably rake in more dough than the first film did, but ALIEN was no piker either. It's grossed over $100 million in theatrical showings, it was one of the first videocassettes to get a gold record for sales, and it was one of the elite few, I believe, that won a platinum record. While I may have to eat my words later, I really do believe that Fox won't do YAS unless they have a worthwile product. Besides, no one would have believed that *this* film could have been nearly as good as the original, and many people feel that it's *better*. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Aug 86 0847-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #230 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 5 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 230 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 Aug 86 14:15:11 GMT From: wall@boves.dec.com Subject: Aliens -- spoliers, discussion Scott writes: >Most of the replies to my original objections to *ALIENS* have been >pretty lame. And why are they all cast as "refutations"? I'm not >Ghod handing down the Commandments - it would be acceptable simply >to argue. As the man in the sketch said, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position. >The bad thing about all the replies is that they all either >postulate some kind of explanation that has no basis in the movie >or refer to the book. Personally I feel that the movie has to >stand on its own and be internally consistent without reference to >a "book" that is written after the movie and with a conscious >intention to explain away problems in the movie. Aliens was an adventure story, not a treatise on the technology that made interstellar commerce feasible. I am not quite sure what basis for these things you wanted other than seeing it on the screen. I'm interested in hearing, though. As for the novelization being written after the movie, that depends on what you mean by "after". If you mean after someone finished a screenplay draft, okay, but I saw the novelization in my Walden Books before the movie's release date. >And as far as making up explanations - like "people get sick in >hyperspace so they need to be put in freeze" - well, I guess that's >the business of sf and we can all do that all night. Doesn't make >the holes in the movie go away, though. Again, the holes are a mater of perception. You thought there were holes in the movie because they didn't provide explanations for a lot of things. I will submit again that those would be holes in the story only if Aliens was a movie about the technology of interstellar travel. I don't believe that was the story, any more than it was the point of the first story. Both of these movies were people stories -- I saw no claim to their being hard science fiction. As for the individual explanations: >Deep Sleep. There's little or no indication in the movie that the >ships have hyperspace capability. Surely the escape pod from the >Nostromo didn't, and it had the same kind of sleep pod. If you are >willing to grant hyper- space, though, you can make up all sorts of >reasons for using deep sleep (see above). True -- there is no mention of such things as a hyperdrive, jump space, or anything of that sort. However, the script may have just assumed that moviegoers were intelligent enough to known that interstellar commerce would require some FTL travel mechanism. As for the escape pod, Ripley did not expect to make it back to Earth in it -- she expected to cross a shipping lane and be picked up. Burke makes some reference to "the core systems" but there's no guarantee of where that is. >As far as using deep sleep to conserve on oxygen/food/living space, >I see several objections. First of all, in a deep space craft you >can carry just about as much as you want, especially of things like >oxygen and food, if you are willing to stick them outside of the >battle structure. You just hook a container of LOX on the outside. >Second, why waste all the time during the journey? Why not use the >time to prepare for the coming mission? This is an emergency >rescue, after all. Finally, there has to be some sort of danger in >using deep sleep. Would you be willing to let yourself be >frozen/chemically slowed to save 17 days? Not me. Stick consumable supplies outside of the battle structure? Exposed to interstellar radiation, the enemy's weapons, space barnacles :-). LOX is pretty hazardous stuff. I wouldn't want my warships to have a liquid bomb right out there where everybody can shoot at it. Why waste the time? Gee, I would've thought resting and conserving energy was a pretty good way to prepare for a lot of hard and potentially dangerous work, as opposed to sitting around and waiting. And yes, deep sleep is dangerous, but The Company is a business, not a rest home. Flight officers get paid for this sort of thing. If you won't do it, then we'll find someone who will. As for the Marines, they do what they're told. >Mumblety-Peg. Urrgh. Everyone replied that "Bishop was fully >aware that he wasn't going to harm Hudson". Not so! Bishop cut >his own hand, remember? Hudson's hand was on top of Bishop's hand, >remember? Therefore, Bishop could very well have cut Hudson's >hand, right? Therefore, Bishop should never have played the game >in the first place, right? We don't know Bishop is an android until after he does that, do we. True, he goes into that Asimovian diatribe about not letting humans come to harm, but harm is a subjective concept and Bishop may have thought that cracking Hudson's agates a little might have been just what he needed. >Using Weapons Under the Thermal Converters. Yes, I was aware that >the "thermal overload" was already underway. That DOESN'T mean >that it was now safe for Ripley to use her weapons in a carte >blanche fashion. If I'm wandering around in a fusion reactor >that's going to overload and blow sky-high in ten minutes, the last >thing I'm going to do is go around shooting the place up and hasten >the process. Those were two completely different situations. After the initial encounter, it was a case of shoot and you might die. Don't shoot and you will die. Pretty simple choice. Remember, the Marines and Burke were unconvinced as to the lethality of these things until they started to die. In that timeframe, it made less sense to be able to shoot until it was demonstrated what they were up against. >Hovering Out of Sight of the Platform. Justify this all you want. >Clearly the movie-makers just wanted to build a little tension at >this point. It makes no sense at all. There is too much wind >inside a building for a landing craft to hover near the platform? >Yeah, THAT seems likely. And I said hover NEAR the platform, not >OVER the platform. I'm well aware of Newton's laws, thank you, and >I realize that hovering over the platform would have strained the >platform (not to mention putting Ripley in the jet wash as she left >the elevator), but it was just tension building (and cheap movie- >making) to have the craft hovering out of sight. And how would >Bishop know when to return? And why didn't he return immediately? It wasn't completely enclosed, and the weather there was nasty. As for Bishop, he'd know when to come back when the dropship's sensors said Ripley was back. Why didn't he come back immediately? You got me. Falling debris or difficulty maneuvering the ship strike me as the likely reasons. >Cheap Movie Making. Ripley's dream. Need I say more? How cheap >can you get? Having ten feet of malignant, armor-plated killing machine make a concerted effort to waste me would give me nightmares. >Leaving the Landing Doors Open on the Shuttle. Please don't blame >this on the incompetent commander. He wasn't even there. At any >rate, professional soldiers aren't that dumb - especially not after >they've survived a few missions. They have protocols beaten in to >them, and they follow them. In a large part, that's what makes >them survive. Perhaps dropship crews have things they are supposed to be doing while waiting to pick up their teams. Again, Aliens is not a film version of a military manual. >The real objection I have to the movie is that that plot is so >obviously constructed to fit suspense/adventure story needs. Just >look at the kinds of strange plot twists that are used: I don't quite see the reason for this objection. People who set out to tell suspense/adventure stories frequently tailor the plots to the needs of a suspense/adventure story, do they not? Maybe I should ask here if you thought Aliens was going to be something other than a suspense/adventure story. Perhaps what you mean to say that it was all very contrived? Well, let's press on. >If the marines go in prepared for the Aliens, its a wipeout. They >wear acid resistant armor, take the right sorts of weapons, etc. >To keep that from happening, the Company completely ignores >Ripley's warning. Why? Here's a trusted (in command of a >multi-billion dollar spaceship) employee who's just survived a 57 >year space trip to bring a warning to the Company. Can't the >Company at least try to confirm her story? No, because that means >the marines would go in prepared. And what happened to the >indications in the earlier story that the Company knew about the >Aliens in the first place? The marines went in as prepared as they could be. Acid resistant armor? The acid eats through starship hulls. Where are they gonna get acid resistant armor? As for the Company ignoring Ripley's warning, they ignore it because there have been people on this rock for twenty years and have never seen so much as an empty egg. Why believe her? Particularly when believing her would mean having to admit to all their previous maneuverings, not to mention sending families to this place without telling them. And losing the chance at the biological weapons sales. Seems like a pretty accurate portrayal of ruthless corporate mentality to me. Maybe they aren't all like that, but this one is. As for Ripley, she's obviously a character with a conscience, but I imagine she just wanted to get the hell out of there more than bringing a warning to the Company. >If the marines can get back up to the orbital ship, they blow up >the place and the story's over. So the marines do two *idiotic* >things: Leave the ramp on the landing craft open and unguarded and >take everyone to the surface. I've already given a couple of things about the landing craft. As for taking everyone to the surface, who do you suggest they leave behind? One of the combat troops? What sort of Marine would volunteer to stay behind -- these people like to fight. One of the techs? No, we need their technical skills on the planet. The company rep, Burke? So what. If something goes wrong, he can't fly a dropship, anyhow. The dropship pilot? No, we only got one. An extra is just dead weight if this is just a milk run, and dead weight is money. >It's a lot more suspenseful if the marines go into the lair >unarmed, so another couple of strange twists: The aliens build >their lair a long way from their food source, under a nuclear >reactor (why?), and the marines don't retreat out to re-arm more >appropriately. There's nothing in the movie to suggest that aliens' food source was a long way from their lair. Perhaps you could be more specific on this point? As for retreating and rearming, we saw that their commander was about as sharp as a marble, and cracking beneath the strain. >In order to get some good firefights, the aliens are constantly >sneaking up on the humans from above or below - as if space marines >would somehow be blind to 3-d tactics. And even if they were once, >wouldn't they catch on sooner or later? I fail to see how this made the firefights any easier -- good firefights are easier to have in wide open spaces. And yes, I suppose they would catch on eventually, but if you're good enough at sneaking up on people, you can pull it off even though they know you're good at sneaking up on people. >In order to get Bishop out of the action and build suspense, we >make him pilot the ship down on remote from near the antenna. >First of all, we could build a ship today that could land near a >beacon on automatic. Second, if we can build an android >indistinguishable from a human, wouldn't we put at least an AI >personality on board the orbital ship? Third, why does Bishop have >to pilot using a keyboard and joystick? He doesn't have a remote >plug or radio link built in? Land on automatic in that wind? In that atmosphere? In all those obstacles? I don't think so, but I can't be positive. There was an AI personality on board the ship, but it didn't know anything was wrong, and perhaps no one has taught it to fly dropships, just prepare them. As for Bishop having a computer link built in, he was proto-organic, and besides, where would you get the power for such a thing? Well, here's my humble attempt to provide a decent argument. Anyone else willing to give it another shot? David F. Wall Digital Equipment Corporation -- HPSCAD, Marlboro, MA UUCP: ...!{decvax|decuac}!{boves,gaynes}.dec.com!wall or !decvax::{boves,gaynes}::wall ARPA: wall%{boves,gaynes}.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 86 15:35:37 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: ALIENS (Jones) From: bambi!steve (Steve Miller) > And let's not forget about Jones the cat. Maybe > Ripley and Newt will return to an Earth that's crawling with the >things. AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! Why is it that so many people assume that the cat has been infected? And now they're speculating that maybe Newt, Hicks, or even Bishop are as well! Give me strength. Let's take another look at ALIEN--- Kane gets attacked by the face-hugger. It puts him in a coma for, oh, let's guestimate a day (based on the amount of time they'd probably take examining Kane, fixing the ship, blasting off, etc.). Then, the little sucker drops off, but Kane stays in a coma for hours, possibly another day. Once he awakens from his coma, it's about another hour or less before he, ah, gives birth. So--- (1) Jones can't be infected. Ripley only left him alone for 15 minutes or less. There was no indication that the carrier had been tampered with (the Bugs were not exactly known for covering their tracks), and Jones was not unconscious. And in the time (which was likely weeks or months) that Ripley and Jones spent at Gateway Station before she went back to Acheron, Jones had not died giving birth to an Bug. Now, I'll grant that the cycle may well change because a cat's metabolism is different than a human's, but it isn't *that* different. (2) Newt can't be infected. She was only away from Ripley for, at most, a half-hour. When Ripley finds her, she (Newt) was being threatened by a face-hugger. I doubt that a species as efficient as the Aliens is going to "waste" a face-hugger on an already-impregnated host. The same argument applies if one tries to argue that she was infected before the rescuers got there (aside from the fact that she spends too much time with them without a chest-burster appearing). Also, even motivated by "revenge", the Queen Bug is not going to try to kill an impregnated host; she'd be more likely to let Newt live to possibly infect the rest of the survivors. (3) Hicks is not impregnated. Like Newt, he was only out of Ripley's presence for, at most, a half-hour. Even if Bishop, like Ash, was a Company rat and purposely infected Hicks, he wouldn't have been able to remove the face-hugger to hide the evidence before Ripley got back. (4) Bishop couldn't be infected (whether accidentally or self-inflicted). Even if we accept the fact that the embryo could survive in a synthetic host, that Bishop could be immune to the coma-producing effect, and that Bishop could remove the face-hugger from his own face --- even if we were to accept all that --- half his guts were spilled out on the landing bay of the Sulaco. How could he successfully hide the embryo in that case? The other argument against Bishop being a Company rat is the fact that in the scene in which Ripley tells him to destroy the face-huggers in the Med-lab after he was through with them, Bishop very openly tells her that Burke told him to pack them for transport back home. If he was attempting to sneak (or help sneak) the Bugs back home, why would he tell this to Ripley? That could sabotage his subterfuge. Even if he figured that he could insure that she didn't reach Earth alive, there would have been no advantage in telling her and all the advantage in *not* telling her. Not that there isn't a hook left open for yet another sequel. There's still the derelict ship full of eggs. I really would have liked to see an epilogue of sorts in which Ripley enters the derelict's coordinates into the battle computer and nukes the derelict from orbit. Or course, there'd still be the original source world for the Bugs... --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Aug 86 0904-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #231 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 5 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 231 Today's Topics: Books - Pringle & Williamson & Celtic Myths, Films - Lensman & Beyond Thunderdome, Television - Star Trek (5 msgs), Miscellaneous - Time Travel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Aug 86 02:27:11 GMT From: gouvea@h-sc4.harvard.edu (fernando gouvea) Subject: Pringle's "100 Best sf Novels" I've just finished reading David Pringle's "Science Fiction: The 100 Best Novels" (Carrol&Graf, hardcover), and feel it is worth comment (and may generate some debate). The book is clearly inspired by Anthony Burgess' recent "Ninety-Nine Novels" (a much better title, that), and consists of small essays on 100 sf novels published between 1949 and 1984. Any book of this kind will certainly be controversial, and Pringle has therefore hedged his bets carefully. His introduction includes the disclaimer that he really doesn't consider all of the novels he includes to be that good (which also becomes clear from the essays about the books in question), but that he has included them because the author is important, or popular, or a good short story writer who would be short-changed from not being included. The last point really points out a defect in the original conception of the book; an appendix on exceptional short story collections would probably have done more justice to such authors, sparing them from having their novels discussed in terms of "this isn't really that good, but the short stories are something else", and would have allowed the inclusion of authors like Harlan Ellison, who have not written any novels. As to the selection itself, it is not as predictable as one might think. The only Asimov book included is "The End of Eternity" (a poor choice, I would think), and that with an essay saying (essentially) that it is not any good. Heinlein is represented by "The Puppet Masters", "The Door Into Summer", and "Have Space Suit--Will Travel" (I would omit the first two and include "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" instead). Lots of British authors are represented (perhaps predictably): John Wyndham (twice), William Golding, John Christopher, Brian Aldiss (three times), J. G. Ballard (four times), etc. Some selections strike me as just plain strange: Mack Reynolds' "Looking Backward, From the Year 2000", for example. Pringle has evidently made an effort to represent as many kinds of sf as possible, and it sometimes is painfully evident that he doesn't like some books at all (the Asimov, Niven and Pournelle's "Oath of Fealty"). He has produced a book that is irritating at times, but fun to read and to discuss. What sort of book would most sf readers include on such a list? I can't help but feel the list wouldn't look at all like Pringle's. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Aug 86 06:19:26 GMT From: fair@ucbarpa.Berkeley.EDU (Erik E. Fair) Subject: Re: Asimov's 1st Law and Aliens Jack Williamson wrote a series of SF stories (collectively dubbed `the Humanoids') about what happens to the human race when they create robots with something akin to Asimov's 3 laws of Robotics (I believe it was called the `Prime Directive' in Williamson's stories) taken to extreme. Basically, humans aren't allowed to do *anything* because of the potential for harm... Erik E. Fair ucbvax!fair fair@ucbarpa.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 31 Jul 1986 10:01:55-PDT From: routley%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Re: Celtic myths On the subject of Celtic myths, the book "The Land Beyond the Gate", by Lloyd Arthur Eshbach is an interesting treatment of Scottish myths related to the Celts and the Sidhe. I am not sure that it is true to the myths, but as I said, it is an interesting treatment. kevin routley ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 86 19:54:56 GMT From: genat!phoenix@caip.rutgers.edu (phoenix) Subject: Re: books into films sewilco@mecc.UUCP (Scot E. Wilcoxon) writes: >Well, if you want quantity and variety I suggest Smith's "Lensman". >Mental, beam, flying, and other effects needed. Sheer scale of the >needed effects probably still makes it impossible. I suppose they >could start with the first books and worry later about how to show >galactic fleet maneuvers and alternate universes. Or did you want >something with a real plot? You probably don't want to hear this, but E.E. "Doc" Smith's Lensman has already hit the silver screen and then gone on to a tv series. Yep, that's right, Japan. There was a major animated movie called "Galactic Patrol Lensman" released in the last two years (lots of computer animation---you should have seen the "Britannia"), which was followed by a l-year long Lensman ("Renusumanu") tv programme, minus the computer animation, except in the credit sequence. Reportedly, ratings were bad (and they made Worzel look rather, uh, insectoid (is this the "Worzel, old snake" I remember?)). ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 86 17:39:23 GMT From: dartvax!chelsea@caip.rutgers.edu (Karen Christenson) Subject: Chivalry towards children > Another problem is the introduction of "soft characters." The >film introduces a child character. It is a serious mistake >because scriptwriters are bound by certain unwritten rules akin to >chivalry about what can and cannot befall weak and sympathetic >characters like children.... In Beyond Thunderdome there were lots of "weak and sympathetic" kids; at least one of them got swallowed up by a sinkhole in the desert. I had been thinking that the movie would be typically sappy about munchkins and pull a deus ex machina (or a deus ex Max anyway) to rescue him, and they didn't. I wouldn't say it was reassuring, but I was impressed that they actually went thru with it. However, if they were going to be "realistic" about that sort of thing, I think it would have been a stronger movie if more than one child died. But then, I believe the overall body count for Beyond Thunderdome was considerably below the previous entries (just an impression; I haven't been counting). Karen Christenson ...!dartvax!chelsea ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 86 16:57:06 GMT From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Star Trek new characters From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> >>. . . If any one thing is the center, it's the Enterprise, which >>is why I felt so cheated when they destroyed it, but that's >>another story. > >I'd be interested to hear in what way(s) you think of it as the >centre. "These are the voyages of the starship _Enterprise_ . . . " Indicative, no? >My feeling at this point is that ST has run its course. It's >possible to run a good thing right into the ground, and I can see >that coming for ST. Unless they can do something significant with >a new series, I wouldn't even bother trying. I disagree that it has run its course. The STAR TREK universe and concept have room for almost unlimited potential. Much has been realized, but I'm sure that much more has not. pH ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Aug 86 01:28:40 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series From: George Lindeberg <gel@mitre-bedford.ARPA> > David did not die to save Spock; he attacked the Klingon just >as Savik (?sp) was about to be killed. Recall that the Klingon >walked behind Spock and David and then paused behind Savik and >clicked open the knife. It was at this point that David jumped the >Klingon. This is also quite clear in the book version of ST III. >I think that Savik qualifies as one of the "new" characters. Close: it's "Saavik". Personally, I thought her part in STII, and her portrayal by Kirstee Allie, did a great deal more to qualify her. They made her genuinely interesting. The only genuinely interesting character I saw in STIII was the Klingon warlord, and I doubt if we'll see him again. I haven't read the book, so I may be missing something, but my strong impression was that David, not knowing which of the three of them was about to get the knife, was barely controlling himself; and then, hearing the hilts of the knife click, he panicked and sprang. Looking at that scene, I could not be certain behind whom the Klingon actually stopped; besides, all three were within easy reach, no matter where he stood. Perhaps in the book it's more obvious. But from what I saw of David on the Genesis planet, the heroism to save somebody else was not in him. He was pretty much a milksop. We know it was in her, though, from the scene in STII where she tackled him around the knees to knock him from a line of fire. But I suppose it comes to the same thing in the end, doesn't it? "I'll tak' the high road, and ye'll tak' the low road..." Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Aug 86 02:01:40 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: 2001 and Star Trek observations From: omen!caf@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX) >Many times when I play my LaserDisc of 2001, I play the Blue Danube >sequence (earth->station, station->moon) and nothing else. I am green with envy! To possess a laser disc of 2001! To be able to listen to all that wonderful music and look at that magnficent production at will! Actually, it's funny you should pick "Blue Danube" as an example: for itself, I would listen to it perhaps once a year: pleasant, but not terribly prepossessing; but in that scene, I can listen to it almost endlessly. At times it does almost seem as if the shuttle and the station are partners in a dance. >Likewise, I sometimes play the "V'ger approach/flyby" because I >like that part. An "outer space" classical music video, if you >will. Thank-you! Sometimes I think I am the only person who saw that film who loved that sequence. I find it very imaginative and creative -- and rather mind stretching, in making it very clear that V'ger overwhelmed the Enterprise, not so very long after we'd been given a strong impression (in the spacedock) that the Enterprise herself was very big. It seemed only appropriate that the bridge crew should be overawed by what they saw, although it's true I prefer being awed myself to staring at somebody else being awed. But I would not have a second cut from that sequence! Why tell a story in film, if you're not going to take advantage of what that medium alone can do? >STTMP was a serious science fiction movie, addressing questions of >a possible computer-aided human evolution, an interesting topic in >1980. The 2nd and 3rd movies are, by comparision, mere space >operas that don't raise any particularly interesting philosophical >issues. I certainly agree about STTMP looking at the question. I would go even farther, and say it addressed the question in a context of direct, immediate importance to one of the film's central characters. Though to call any of the Star Treks serious science fiction is, I think, pressing it. I'm not sure I can agree with the second statement, though. II and III certainly "raised" the question of whether it's possible to have too much power, and whether even the ability virtually to create life is necessarily a good thing. If you wish to protest, though, that they did little to explore the question, I will quite agree. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Aug 86 02:30:54 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: Star Trek I objections From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) >I had so hoped that they'd have included the scene where Kirk >argues to take command of the Enterprise, but Noooooooooo! They >probably didn't want to pay the actor who played the unseen >admiral. Why bother? What would this tell you that you didn't know already? You know Kirk is obsessed with regaining Enterprise, that he will shoot fleet regulations, discipline, and anything else all to hell to get her, and that he does in fact do so, walking all over Decker, and then permitting him a breach of discipline which no commanding officer should tolerate. I can't imagine what you would expect to see in such a scene. Whether the meeting did in fact last no more than 3 minutes? Who cares? What they said to each other? What does it matter? That his selfishness and disobedience must make him one of the most useless admirals in the fleet? That's pretty clear already. >What they should have done to make the tape a win was to edit out >the slow passage through V'Ger (or at least a lot of it). I could >have done without the Ooh-Ahh-Oh looks from the crew, too. Thank you, **NO**. I've already addressed this in another posting, so I'll keep this short. Edit *your* copy, if you must, but leave me to enjoy mine (not that I actually have one). Sometimes I think people would edit the Grand Canyon, if they could work out how. "Too long, nothing happens". >As a side comment, a Turkish friend of mine saw the film. She had >seen the series back in Turkey (this might have been really funny, >seeing the show with all the voices in Turkish :-). When the movie >was over, she asked me how I could watch such sh**. Hmmm, should I >answer that? :-) Why would Turks find Turkish voices funny? "The Avengers" dubbed in French certainly wasn't; the scene in "The Prisoner"'s titles where he cries "I am not a number, I am a free man" was chilling, in French or English. Show her "The Terminator" or the Conan films for context, or perhaps "Gremlins" (or, if she is too good a friend for that, spare her, and just tell her about them). I expect she'll understand the situation better after that. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 3 Aug 86 01:24:50 GMT From: omen!caf@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX) Subject: Re: Star Trek I (was new TV series) MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET writes: >>STTMP was a serious science fiction movie, addressing questions of >>a possible computer-aided human evolution, an interesting topic in >>1980. The 2nd and 3rd movies are, by comparision, mere space >>operas that don't raise any particularly interesting philosophical >>issues. > >How about mortality? And honor? Sure, mortality and honor are valid subjects for dramatic presentations. But, they are nowhere unique to STTMP 2 and 3, not even within ST. If it's death you wish to contemplate, see ZARDOZ. The Enterprise has been damaged in a number of episodes, and important characters have been killed before. Star Trek has a real "problem" with death. It is an acceptable way of disposing of some of Kirk's lovers, but anyone worth his weight in energy can be recreated in a transporter, as was done in one of the novels. Recall, I said "interesting" philosophical issues. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Aug 86 02:36:54 GMT From: epimass!jbuck@caip.rutgers.edu (Joe Buck) Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment tim@gort.UUCP (Timothy Thomas) writes: >Think about the logic in that. If we have to rely on somebody in >the future to help us, then we will wait forever. If some >technology is 'invented' or 'found' because of somebody in the >future sending it to us, that would be a contradiction. Ok, fine, >we now have some new tecnology. So in the future (since it has >already happened), we send it back to ourselves again. Where did >it originate??? There is no way any new knowledge from the future >can enter into the present or past because of this knowledge must >originate someplace, or be found (found meaning discovered on its >own or invented, not handed to by some future scientist). Why would it be a contradiction? Causal loops are certainly strange, but they can be drawn on a Minkowski space-time diagram easily enough. "Contradiction" means that the statements "A" and "not A" are both true. For example, going back in time and killing my (younger) self cause a contradiction, where A is the statement "I exist at time t". But you're stating "knowledge must originate someplace (and time)?" as a postulate; it's not an axiom of logic. It only contradicts intuition. Joe Buck Entropic Processing, Inc., Cupertino, California {ihnp4!pesnta,oliveb,nsc!csi}!epimass!jbuck ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Aug 86 0940-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #232 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 5 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 232 Today's Topics: Books - McIntyre & Sturgeon & Wheeler & Author Request & Tarot, Films - Maximum Overdrive & The Transformers & Warriors of the Wind & The Demolished Man & Silent Running, Television - Star Trek (4 msgs), Miscellaneous - Time Travel (2 msgs) & SF Erotica (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Aug 86 20:20:20 GMT From: goldberg_4b@h-sc4.harvard.edu (Randy Goldberg) Subject: Re: Star Trek farren@hoptoad.UUCP (Mike Farren) writes: >Vonda McIntyre's next Star Trek novel (all of which are excellent, >by the way) will be "Star Trek - the Initial Voyage of the Starship >Enterprise", or at least something close to that. Definitely will >be about the beginnings of the Enterprise's fame (although I don't >know if it's the first voyages of the ship, or the first voyages of >Kirk et al.) The title will be "Star Trek - The First Voyage" and will be about the first voyage (obviously!). This is therefore _PRIOR_ to "Where No Man Has Gone Before" i.e.: Gary Myers (is that right?), No. One, _Lt. Commander_ Spock, no McCoy, et. al. In the Star Trek Novel (#30, if you're interested) called "Demons", there is an excerpt in the back from the new McIntyre novel. "Demons" is worth buying just for that one excerpt (besides the fact that it is one of the best of the new novels!). Hope this helps! Randy Goldberg ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 86 05:52:18 GMT From: hoptoad!gnu@caip.rutgers.edu (John Gilmore) Subject: Other viewpoints on incest [SFL folks: net.singles has been talking about the supreme court and the topic has broadened to incest and beastiality.] A very interesting viewpoint on incest is that expressed by Theodore Sturgeon in his story "If all men were brothers, would you let one marry your sister?". This appeared in the first _Dangerous Visions_ book, edited by Harlan Ellison. It supposes an isolated society which practices incest and imagines some of the other effects of this. I won't spoil the story by telling you what he says -- he's better at it anyway. John Gilmore {sun,ptsfa,lll-crg,ihnp4}!hoptoad!gnu jgilmore@lll-crg.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 86 03:07:44 GMT From: utastro!wheel@caip.rutgers.edu (Craig Wheeler) Subject: A new book! I have written a science adventure novel called "THE KRONE EXPERIMENT." It's being published by Pressworks Publishing, Inc. of Dallas and should be available in October. We are collecting blurbs for the jacket now. John Archibald Wheeler says "--- a gripping science fiction story." Tom Clancy, author of "The Hunt for Red October" says "A Thriller, a detective story, and a brilliant piece of scientific speculation; this is a uniquely intelligent novel." Eleanor York, Carl Sagan's assistant (he was busy (-:), says "--- a ripping good read with well-developed and interesting characters and plenty of suspense." Look for it in October, and let me know what you think of it. Craig Wheeler ------------------------------ Date: 3 Aug 86 21:57:54 GMT From: eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu (David Eppstein) Subject: Zelaznarii? It is apparent that among the followers of Roger Zelazny are Steve Brust (self-admitted in this group) and William Gibson (refs to Isle of the Dead in Neuromancer and more obscurely in Count Zero; inspiration from Coils). Now if those three wrote enough to keep me in fiction I would be very happy. But they don't. So my question: are there any more authors like these that I might have missed? I'm specifically not looking for cyberpunks (as might be guessed from the fact that Zelazny and Brust have written quite varied works almost all of which don't fall into that category). I'm looking for writers whose writing fits in a particular range of styles that I know I like. If this seems a little vague to you, it is to me too... But at least it's not yet another message about Aliens or LOTR... David Eppstein eppstein@cs.columbia.edu seismo!columbia!cs!eppstein ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 86 16:33:34 GMT From: goldberg_4b@h-sc4.harvard.edu (Randy Goldberg) Subject: Re: Has this been done? And let us not forget the wonderful _Chronicles of Amber_ by R. Zelazny. It does not deal with Tarot directly, But they're involved! ------------------------------ Date: 9 Aug 86 04:38:57 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: Maximum Overdrive = Maximum Dumb! > Can't imagine why King allowed such a DUMB movie to be made. Poor > acting, unbelievable situations, the only good thing about the > show was the music by AC/DC. "Allowed," hell, he *MADE* the thing! He came on in the coming attraction and said how no one had ever done his stories right, so we would just have to do it himself. So he wrote *and* directed MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE. I haven't seen it, but if you want to blame someone, blame King. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 86 02:02:02 GMT From: genat!phoenix@caip.rutgers.edu (phoenix) Subject: Leonard Nimoy and Orson Welles in an Animated Movie In a movie being released by Marvel Productions (the comic book company) and Sunbow Productions (American name for the Japanimation company Toei Doga) in Canada on August 8th, Leonard Nimoy and the late Orson Welles have starring (voice) roles. The movie is "The Transformers-The Movie", based on the Hasbro series of toys and tv programme. Also starring in the movie (voice) are: Eric Idle, Judd Nelson, Robert Stack, Lionel Stander. Any one wanting further info, e-mail me. This looks like having a frightfully short run, so if you are interested, see it fast. I wonder how long Hasbro's been keeping this movie on ice (Orson Welles died when?); Hasbro will release no movie before its time... ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 86 13:54:03 EDT From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Warriors of the Wind To the people who were trying to find Warriors of the Wind on videotape: HBO will be showing Warriors of the Wind this month. Watch it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 86 15:24:19 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: incipient movie of THE DEMOLISHED MAN Several years ago there were rumblings that Brian dePalma had the rights to this. The thought of dePalma directing TDM after what he did to CARRIE (which is actually a tolerable SF novel, unlike much of his later, more formulaic horror), and his general predilection for senseless, bloody spectacle, appalled me, and I've been glad not to hear anything more in that direction. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 86 20:10:55 GMT From: tekig5!chrisa@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Andersen) Subject: Re: Silent Running movie song daveb@rtech.UUCP (Dave Brower) writes: >Silent Running, 1971, Douglas Trumbull's directorial debut, gets >*** from Maltin's "Movies on TV." I think that's overrated. I personally think this is one of the best movies ever made. It's one of the few that has ever actually brought me to tears. Even after seeing it several times I still feel a lump in my throat when Dern blows up the ship. Some may think that the heavy pro-ecology tone was too much, but I really felt for the character Bruce Dern played (someone said that Dern would like to forget this role, I think he should be very proud of it.) My mailbox is always willing to accept letters. Yours in better understanding, Chris Andersen (chrisa@tekig5) ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 86 21:38:09 GMT From: casey!donna@caip.rutgers.edu (Donna Hrynkiw) Subject: Menagerie - Who's Keeper's voice? Does anyone know who's voice is used in dubbing over "The Keeper" in the episode "The Menagerie"? I know the voice used in the original "The Cage" was Malachi Throne. But, when he joined the cast in "The Menagerie" they had to redo it with someone else. (Can't have the same person's voice in one episode.) Throne played Commodore Mendez. I did an interview with actress Meg Wyllie who played the Keeper, and even SHE doesn't know. Anyone who knows, should mail to me as soon as possible. When you send your answer, could you please specify the SOURCE of the information. Accuracy in the answer is very important as this interview will go in STARLOG. ** unabashed plug ** Four guest stars of Star Trek interviews will appear in Starlog #112. They are: Bruce Hyde, Sean Kenney, Craig Hundley, and Lee Bergere. This will be a 20th Anniversary of Star Trek issue. I had lots of fun doing them, and hope you like them. Frank Garcia ....!ubc-vision!casey!comm59 comm59@casey.kwantlen.bcc.cdn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 86 10:35 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series Cc: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu (Catherine Ariel Wolffe) Catherine: Gee, they could have the characters from the Tradition, my ST club, too. Our motto is "Nostra Navis Omne Praeceptum Frangit" -- Our ship breaks every rule. The Capt'n sits in the command chair and knits; the navigator uses a sexton, compass, and Thomas Bros. maps, and has been, unwillingly, promoted to First Officer; our Personnel Officer is the result of a transporter accident, a half-Vulcan, half-Horta; we have a Security ensign who wears fake pointed ears in an attempt at disguise and an Engineer whose pet project requires copper tubing and potatoes. We could have some copyright problems, though, as our Star Trek universe often blends a bit, with Traditional visitors and crew from Doctor Who, Dallas, Star Wars, Sherlock Holmes, and other odd corners of the space time continuum. I think our ship's should meet sometime. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 86 15:31:24 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: ST script quality >Star Trek needs more similarities to M*A*S*H than that. Mostly, it >needs M*A*S*H's writers. They proved that it is in fact physically >possible for a Hollywood series to have fine writing. Star Trek >occasionally rose above the masses (of Hollywood junk) in its >writing: but that wasn't difficult. Frequently it didn't. I don't know that M*A*S*H's writers would help. Much of the best material on ST came from SF writers---some primarily media types (Bloch, Bixby), some crossovers (Ellison), some primarily story writers (Sturgeon) and even some from outside the trade altogether (Gerrold, at least for "Trouble with Tribbles") Mundanes who have tried to write SF stories commonly either step too timidly, or think there are no rules and make a mess. But it may be easier to improve the imagination of somebody who writes about people instead of icons than it is to get a hack to write something good. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 86 20:36:57 GMT From: goldberg_4b@h-sc4.harvard.edu (Randy Goldberg) Subject: Star Trek Trivia Have you ever noticed, during the bridge scene following the solar system fly-through in STTMP, the vaguely familiar music playing over Kirk's login? You have three guesses. That's it. It most certainly _IS_ the theme from the original series. Next question: Do you know the words thereto? "Beyond the rim of the starlight "My love is wand'ring in starflight "He'll find in far off, starry reaches "Love strange love a star woman teaches "konw his journey ends never "His STAR TEK will go on forever "But tell him as he sails his starry sea "Tell him remember, rememeber me!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 86 21:36:05 cdt From: caip!ihnp4!mmm!cipher (Andre Guirard) To: floyd!caip!nike!kaufman Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment you write: >mikes@tekecs.UUCP (Michael Sellers) writes: >>...If you were the one capable of sending something back, what (or >>who) would it be? > >A nuclear bomb. Something that would, by "appearing" in that time, >materialize in my grandfather. A computer & manual, destined for >T.A. Edison in Menlo Park, NJ. The plans for "Opertion: Overlord" >to die F^uhrer's office (excuse the attempt at an umlaut) in >Berlin. In general, anything that would cause an identifiable, >unavoidable mistake in time. Great way to verify whether we live >in a "parallel" universe, or a "serial" one (cf. "Thrice Upon a >Time," by (James P.?) Hogan). It's a good way to tell if you live in a parallel universe, but it's not a good way to tell if you live in a serial one, since the experiment would have a high probability of causing the experimenter never to have existed, or at least never to have conducted the experiment. Better to conduct the experiment on a smaller scale, then you can be sure that you'll be around to see the results. It seems like I've heard a theory to the effect that time travel can't exist not because it's theoretically impossible, but because the invention of time travel makes it possible to modify the past, making time travel never to have been discovered. Knowing how to travel in time is an unstable situation. Andre Guirard ihnp4!mmm!cipher ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 86 21:39:08 GMT From: ulowell!dobro@caip.rutgers.edu (Gryphon) Subject: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment The subject of multiple time lines was put forth in this story. Short summary: the existence of an additional type of energy (tau) is discovered. Seems that this energy is created (no comments :-}) whenever another form of energy is released. This tau energy travels back in time a distance directly proportional to the amount of energy. SO, these guys who discovered this (who also happen to be hackers) design a machine to monitor reception of this type of energy. Then they experiment by sending forward (sorry, it can go forward or back, distance proportional ...) and having the future people send messages back. What they came up with is the idea as follows: Picture a grid board, with a needle/hook/whatever stuck in at each point. The 'thread' of relity is strung from point to point. Now, move the thread in the past and that changes the points it connects to. But, given enough time (dependend upon the severity of the change), the 'thread' will head toward its original future. Thus there is an elasticity to time. Now, Hogan also came up with what the characters called the 'reset factor'. This was basically that certain amounts of tau radiation will be consantlt jumping back and forward and changing things, even as minor as the placement of a sigle molecule. But, that can have unforseen affects. However, once a change is made in the past, reality is retroactivley reset to hav that as its past. Scary thought. Sorry for length, but I think it was a neat idea. I will leave all else (this contained no real spoilers to plot) to anyone who wishes to read it. Comments? Phone : (617) 937-0551 USMail: P.O.Box 8524, Lowell, Ma. 01853 Usenet: ...!{wanginst,masscomp,apollo}!ulowell!dobro ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 86 16:51:04 GMT From: goldberg_4b@h-sc4.harvard.edu (Randy Goldberg) Subject: Re: Sexy SF >p.s. while we're on the subject, I'm sure that you all know Chris >Foss (air-brush artist extroadinaire - many book covers, album >covers, art work for Krypton, Nostromo (in Alien)) but did you know >that he did the art work for "Joy of Sex"? Have we all forgotten that master of Fantasy art-work, Boris Vallego? It seems to me that a _HELL_ of a lot of his work was pretty risque, no? ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 86 21:26:45 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: SF Erotica In all this discussion of SF erotica, I'm surprised that no one has mentioned John Norman's "Gor" series. Then again, maybe I'm not. :-) Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Aug 86 0956-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #233 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 5 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 233 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Aug 86 15:58:40 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: ALIENS (signal beacon) From: apple!tomas (Tom Taylor) > Remember the first movie? That old ship looked about a > million years old. Even the huge alien with the busted out chest > seemed petrified. The beacon must have been going thousands of > years. I doubt it would have given out in just 37 more years. Ah yes, I once embraced that philosophy. Gee, I've gone 345 miles already. Surely my car will go another ten, until I can get to an open gas station, right? Right. So guess what happened. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 86 16:19:49 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: ALIENS From: ucla-cs!srt (Scott Turner) > The bad thing about all the replies is that they all either > postulate some kind of explanation that has no basis in the movie > or refer to the book. Personally I feel that the movie has to > stand on its own and be internally consistent without reference to > a "book" that is written after the movie and with a conscious > intention to explain away problems in the movie. I agree that referring to the book to explain away holes in not completely cricket, but there's nothing wrong in postulating explanations. The movie shouldn't have to explain *everything*. There *should* be things that you have to read between the frames. In fact, anything that the characters take for granted as part of their life and work should not have to be explained. The cold-sleep for even relatively short durations is one such thing. There may well be excellent reasons for it that don't occur to us. It might be just as difficult for a man from the 17th Century to figure out why we wash apples off before eating them. I won't argue with you on a point by point basis. Suffice it to say that I don't agree with many of your objections, and the ones I *do* agree on (like Ripley's nightmare at the beginning being just a cheap thrill) I consider nothing more than peccadillos. However... > The real objection I have to the movie is that that plot is so > obviously constructed to fit suspense/adventure story needs. Funny how that works, isn't it? But then, I remember hearing somewhere that when you set out to present a suspense/adventure story, it makes things a lot easier if you construct your plot to fit suspense/adventure story needs. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 86 00:22:30 GMT From: srt@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Oooh, A Fight! A Fight! (And more _ALIENS_) >>Personally I feel that the movie has to stand on its own and be >>internally consistent without reference to a "book" that is >>written after the movie and with a conscious intention to explain >>away problems in the movie. >Bullshit. Movies are editted and trimmed. LOTS of stuff is taken >from them in the interests of tight, interesting storytelling. That's an interesting stand. I doubt you'd like a book that couldn't be interpreted - either from a conceptual or literary standpoint - without aid of another book. (Except perhaps as "experimental" literature.) Movies and books both share some fundamental storytelling goals. If a movie (or book) is incomplete in fulfilling those goals, it is bad storytelling. Now, did _Aliens_ fall down in this regard? That's a judgement call, but I'm of the opinion that there was too much deus ex machina. > If they had no FTL of some kind, then how did they get from > Gateway to Acheron in less than a month? You tell us, Scott. If they had FTL, why did they use cold sleep? Not to save mass, as you suggest, since normal physics of acceleration don't matter and 17 days of O2 masses considerably less than a room full of sleep equipment. You tell us, hutch. >>Using Weapons Under the Thermal Converters. > Ripley was taking a calculated risk. Had you been there, I'm sure > you'd have been bugfood just before the tower went up. (anyone > know how to do an alien smiley?) And had you been there, spraying gunfire, the tower would have gone up before you'd gotten anywhere near Newt. I don't object to Ripley using gunfire as a last resort, but she went in intending to shoot the place up, which is both dumb and out of character. How to make an alien smiley: Take two parts gin... aw, never mind. >>The real objection I have to the movie is that that plot is so >>obviously constructed to fit suspense/adventure story needs. Just >>look at the kinds of strange plot twists that are used: > >I will deal with your nits in a second. First, I will argue with >your gripe about plot. WHAT DO YOU WANT THE PLOT TO BE, A BLIPPING >ROMANCE? I was making a distinction between the story aspect of the movie and the adventure aspect. A lot of critics have compared _Aliens_ to a rollercoaster ride. I think that aspect is too prominent in the film, and led the film makers and script writers into some stupid plot maneuvers. I could have the same objection to a romance - having one of the lovers dying of cancer has become a hackneyed tear-jerker plotting device. My objection is that the suspense/adventure part of the film could have been done a lot more cleverly - I'm sick of stories where the suspense arises out of the stupidity of the characters. Why does the commander always have to be an idiot? Portraying the military as "dumb" has become de facto since Vietnam. I'm tired of it. It is an easy out for script writers that adds nothing to the movie. Question: Would _Aliens_ have been a better movie if the commander and the marines had been top-notch, made no mistakes and still been nearly killed by the Aliens (led by a hideously intelligent Queen)? >NO armor would have worked. The only substance we've seen which >isn't dissolved by alien-blood is alien-hide. Yawn. Is this the joke about the universal solvent again? And how about the specimen jars in the lab? And you jibe me for being science ignorant. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 86 23:50:34 GMT From: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu (Catherine Ariel Wolffe) Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*) wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes: > A huge problem with "Alien," "Aliens," "The Thing (remake)," and > many other films in this genre hasn't ever been mentioned in this > group (as far as I can tell). You see, for a little organism to > grow into a big organism it needs BIOMASS. One minute you've got a > cute li'l chest burster, the next you've got a big lug on the > lines of Arnold Schwarzenegger. Whaa? WHERE DID THE BIOMASS COME > FROM??? It's enough to make anyone who's gotten beyond Bio 101 > puke ... In the original film _Alien_, the creature has access to the entire ship. And food lockers had been broken into. A creature which can adapt itself to using humans for its propagation should also be able to make use of the same food humans use by similar adaptions. And the food stuffs in the lockers were unprocessed (maybe pure CHON). Catherine Ariel Wolffe ------------------------------ Date: 3 Aug 86 00:17:03 GMT From: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu (Catherine Ariel Wolffe) Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*) steve@bambi.UUCP (Steve Miller) writes: >As we say here on the net: No, no, no. Hicks is alone the with >Bishop the whole time that Ripley is Rambo-izing the nest. Also, >Bishop goes as far as giving Hicks a knock-out shot. Hicks might >not even know he was impregnated (raped?). And let's not forget >about Jones the cat. Maybe Ripley and Newt will return to an Earth >that's crawling with the things. In _Alien_, it was a considerable amount of time before the face-hugger crawled off Kane and died. The time it took for Ripley to find Newt after leaving the drop ship is comparable to the time it took for Dallas and Lambert to drag Kane to the Nostromo. And a Kane was killed less than one hour after the face-hugger crawled away. Jones would have already been dead by the time Ripley got her apartment. Oh, and the reason why the landing ramp was down on the first drop ship was probably because the ship was in a secured area. The pilots didn't even know the aliens existed. Catherine Ariel Wolffe ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 86 18:14:41 GMT From: dartvax!ericb@caip.rutgers.edu (Eric J. Bivona) Subject: Re: ALIENS - Alien intelligence, biology & Jones the Cat brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes: >All in all the movie was superb, but the ending in the mother ship >was weak. The fight in the waldo-suit didn't make any sense to me. >If I escaped behind the bulkhead, I would come back with a grenade >launcher, not a loader. And fire afore-mentioned grenade launcher in a shuttle bay? I can think of more pleasent ways to suicide. Explosions in an enclosed chamber are probably not real pleasant, assuming the structural integrity of the chamber is not compromised. I thought this was one of the best scenes of either of the two movies, where our heroine goes one-on-one with the Queen (with a little help --- they don't call us tool users for nothing...) Eric J. Bivona USNET: {linus|ihnp4|decvax|astrovax|research}!dartvax!ericb ARPA: ericb%dartmouth@csnet-relay CSNET: ericb@dartmouth ------------------------------ Date: 3 Aug 86 15:16:16 GMT From: jsloan@wright.EDU (John Sloan) Subject: Re: Alien, original concept? > When I first saw Alien, the original, the implanted embryo brought > to mind my first reading of such an idea. A. E. van Vogt's VOYAGE > OF THE SPACE BEAGLE, contains a super-alien that is picked up in > interstellar space by a research ship. As I recall a lawsuit insued over this very similarity, and A.E. got the jury's Vogt :-). BTW the VOTSB is worth reading, ALIEN(S) fans. John Sloan Wright State University Computer Science and Engineering Dayton, OH 45435 +1 513 873 2491, 2987 CSNET: jsloan@WRIGHT.EDU USENET: ...!cbosgd!wright!jsloan ARPANET: jsloan%wright@CSNET-RELAY DECNET LAN: wright::jsloan SMTP LAN: jsloan@wright ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 3 Aug 1986 22:49:06-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: The term 'bughunt' (ALIENS) From: robert@sri-spam.ARPA (Robert Allen) > What I want to see is Robert Heinlein suing Cameron for use of the > term "bughunt". It would be a shame, particularly given the upset > caused by Harlan Ellisons claims in.re. the plot of the > Terminator. If Heinlein were to sue Cameron, he'd lose. Heinlein never copyrighted or trademarked the term "bughunt", so he has no legal claim to it. What would sf have been like if the first writer to use "hyperspace" or "hyperdrive" had trademarked it? Or "crosstime"? Or "time travel"? Plot elements are another thing entirely. Besides, can't people recognize an admiring reference? Cameron is an admitted sf reader. That might well be a tip of the hat to Heinlein. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 3 Aug 1986 23:42:59-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: ALIENS From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA > Those containers must have been made of the kind of plastic that I > postulated above. Notice that it is inert, but not that strong > (they were smashed in order to let the facehuggers run loose in > the room with Ripley and Newt). No, I don't think they were smashed. Ripley might have been woken up by the noise. She might not have been, as she was quite exhausted, but Burke couldn't take that chance. It looked to me like the lids were taken off and they were dumped on their sides, or perhaps they were knocked over when the face huggers tried to jump out of them. The latter seems more reasonable, since it would have given Burke more time to get out of the room before one of them got *him*. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 86 07:20:29 GMT From: reiher@medea.cs.ucla.edu (Peter Reiher) Subject: Re: ALIENS boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes: >Surely you jest. First of all, if the studio just wanted to rake in >the bucks, why didn't they film an ALIEN II years ago? As a matter >of fact, they had planned a sequel soon after the first film's >success was assured, but they didn't want to rush it with just any >old script and any old director. That was part of it. A large part of the reason "Aliens" took so long to come around was studio politics, though. When one studio head leaves, and another takes over, it is customary to trash any projects which have not already been pretty well committed to. This happened to "Aliens". Then, after the relative failure of some sequels ("The Sting II", "Jaws III", etc), sequels weren't such a big thing as they are now. Remember those halcyon days of only a few years ago when a big hit movie did not necessarily mean that we had to have a sequel to it? >While I may have to eat my words later, I really do believe that >Fox won't do YAS unless they have a worthwile product. I may have to eat *my* words, but I'd be more than surprised if there wasn't a sequel to "Aliens" in two to three years. Moreover, I'd bet it will be directed either by a hack or by a relative newcomer (Cameron will have moved on to bigger and better things, and Scott is unlikely to come back for seconds). The chances are excellent that it will suck. Right now, Fox studio executives are not saying, "Boy, it's a good thing we waited so long to make the sequel to "Alien"." What they're saying is, "Weren't our predecessors shmucks to wait so long to make such an obvious hit? We'll rush into a sequel right away, to get the money while it's still hot." There will be much pious talk of commitment to quality, and upholding the standards of the first two films, but, when push comes to shove, most Hollywood producers don't believe in talent; they believe in hotness. If something or someone is hot, they think that including that element in a film is a surefire way to succeed. "Aliens" are hot, so why do they need a talented director, or a good script? Peter Reiher reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 86 17:09:16 GMT From: utastro!ethan@caip.rutgers.edu (Ethan Vishniac) Subject: Re: Clean(?) Aliens boyajian@akov68.dec.com writes: >> From: Dave.Touretzky@A.CS.CMU.EDU >> ...No wonder the Company was itching to get its hands on them: >> they're as clean as a neutron bomb, but smarter, and >> self-reproducing. > > As clean as a neutron bomb?? Not quite. > > Neutron bombs don't leave slime all over the place! :-) A more important difference is that the aliens will go on trying to kill long after any political/military objectives have been achieved. This is the same reason that the US and the USSR were able to agree to ban germ warfare. I found this an irritating point in the movie. The only explanation I can think of is that the company was confident that its biologists could program a self-destruct mechanism into the critters. Has anyone considered the possibility that the aliens *are* a deliberately constructed biological weapon? Perhaps they are programmed to go into a coma and die whenever confronted by sentient beings with polka-dot faces. :-) Ethan Vishniac {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU Department of Astronomy University of Texas ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Aug 86 0740-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #234 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 6 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 234 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (13 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 31 Jul 86 18:55:06 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Goldberry allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >Well, if Goldberry is ``the River-daughter'', and we take *that* at >face value, then either Osse or Uinen (or both; Ulmo is, however >unlikely or she'd be the Sea-daughter) has been playing around... I have always taken this to be a metaphorical expression. It is rather like calling Valar brothers and sisters to one another, which is something Tolkien does in The Silmarillion. For instance I believe there is something about Morgoth being a brother to Manwe "in the mind of Iluvatar". Thus I believe "River-daughter" is simply a poetic way of saying "Maia of the Withywindle". She certainly has a very close relationship to that river! Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 86 19:03:32 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast in Middle-Earth jcn@blade.UUCP (Julio Cesar Navas) writes: > By the end of the Third Age, only Gandalf has carried out >his charge. Only Gandalf has 'kept the Faith'. Saruman had >switched sides and turned to evil (desiring to keep the One Ring >for himself and become the new Lord of Middle-Earth). Radagast had >become so enamored of the birds and animals of Middle-Earth (esp. >the birds) that he forsook his duties and really didn't do much in >the way of helping the free peoples in any way. > >NOTE: Only Gandalf returned to Aman !!!! A sure sign that he had >carried out his duties faithfully and the others had not. > >Therefore, to describe Saruman and Radagast as 'renegade maia who >had become so fascinated by Middle-Earth that they forsook their >duties to stay there' is entirely correct. I do not think it can be said with certainty that only Gandalf returned to Aman. The sailing that Gandalf and Frodo took was not the only one, though it may have been the greatest. I can certainly believe that Radagast might have taken a different ship. And as for the Blue Wizards, if they had been killed they would *already* be back in Aman, without the need to sail there. Also, I think it is debatable that Radagast had really forsaken his duties. True, he did not perform them as *effectivly* as Gandalf, but he did his part, in a small way, and he remained uncorrupted by greed or lust for power. As I remember the discussion of the Istari in The Lost Tales it is only *suggested* that Radagast might be considered to have failed, and I do not think that really fits the facts as set forth in LotR. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 86 19:12:43 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Debating Tolkien's word ccrrick@ucdavis.UUCP (Rick Heli) writes: >>However, if you find the translation idea inadequate, consider >>that Tolkien wrote "Lord of the Rings" first (after Hobbit), out >>of the "desire of a storyteller to try his hand at a really good >>story." > >Actually, the tales presented in _The_Silmarillion_ are among the >oldest of the entire Tolkien mythos. The *stories* may have been the oldest, but the form they were published in(that is the actual prose) was written *after* the LotR. Read the various "Lost Tales" volumes to get the original versions. The versions in Slimarillion are *much* better. His concept of the Valar had matured considerably between the original versions and the later, post-LotR, versions, they are less trivial and more believable. Also, in the original versions he made the mistake of giving details of how the magic was done, and it generally sounded quite silly compared to the published works. Even most of the drafts in "The Unfinished Tales" are post-LotR. In fact they represent the skeleton of what Tolkien really intended "The Silmarillion" to be. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jul 86 20:58:38 GMT From: tcdmath!hugh@caip.rutgers.edu (Hugh Grant) Subject: Re: Tolkien's blue wizards db@cstvax.UUCP (Dave Berry) writes: >Someone suggested to me that, as Gandalf had power with fire, and >Radagast had power with animals, so a Blue Wizard could have had >power with water (for want of better knowledge). Hmmm. As far as I can remember, the reason Gandalf had power over fire was because he held Narya, the ring of fire, and not just a natural tendency to pyromania. I'd think that Radagast probably just liked cute little animals... In other words, these "abilities" were not directly due to their being wizards so there's no reason that a blue wizard would have a particular power. Hugh Grant Mathematics Dept, Trinity College, Dublin. UUCP: {seismo,decvax,ihnp4}!mcvax!ukc!einode!tcdmath!hugh ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 86 05:11:43 GMT From: watnot!jrsheridan@caip.rutgers.edu (James R. Sheridan) Subject: Re: Tolkien's blue wizards hugh@tcdmath (Hugh Grant) writes: >Hmmm. As far as I can remember, the reason Gandalf had power over >fire was because he held Narya, the ring of fire, and not just a >natural tendency to pyromania. I'd think that Radagast probably >just liked cute little animals... In other words, these >"abilities" were not directly due to their being wizards so there's >no reason that a blue wizard would have a particular power. Sorry, but I can't buy that. While I do feel that Gandalf was able to use the ring (witness the Balrog [I know, point of contention :-)]) he most certainly did not get all his power over fire from Narya. Somehow Gandalf using the power of an Elven Ring, which was supposed to be kept VERY secret, for the most amazing fireworks the Hobbits had ever seen just does not click. I feel that he received Narya more BECAUSE he was a lover of flame. Think about it, Cirdan must have seen all the Istari arriving and yet he chose Gandalf. True, he may have had the Forevision that lots of Elves seemed to have, but it could be said that EVERY one of them would need the power in their tasks. All (?) he knew was that mighty beings had arrived from over-sea... If he had to pick one of the four, the one who was most "suitable" was Gandalf. Enough of that, here's a little idea that hit me while thinking about this posting... When Gandalf is battling the Balrog in Moria he mentions that he is the wielder of the "Flame of Anor". Now some believe that means Narya (myself included), but here's another possiblity: Glamdring his sword. For Orcs anyways the Elven swords gleam with a bright light that they find painful (remember in The Hobbit when they battled under the Misty Mountains...). This sword might be capable of doing the same to a Balrog??? Oh well, it's an idea... James R. Sheridan Faculty of Mathematics University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Canada {utzoo|allegra|ihnp4|decvax|clyde}!watmath!watnot!jrsheridan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 86 15:58:25 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: character control >The author of a fantasy world should have the last word about the >events, places, etc. therein. This is reasonable. >In fact, the author would be the only person who would have a >complete knowledge of all the events, plottings, characters, >places, etc. in his land. This is arguable, even in one-author worlds (e.g., NOBODY knows everything that's going on in Sanctuary). >Therefore, his readers would never really know why Sauron did what >he did. Tolkien, however, would know. He is after all the one who >created the situation in the first place and so would know the why >'s and wherefore's for every character's actions. This, however, is nonsense. I won't argue that Tolkien was an author who deliberately played with his readers' heads (unlike some modern SF authors). BUT that doesn't mean he didn't leave some things as an exercise to the reader or for further discussion, just as Milton's is not the last word (in the Christian fantasy) on why Lucifer rebelled [yes, it's not an exact analogy]. Frank Stockton certainly didn't know whether the door the princess pointed to had the Lady or the Tiger behind it; some authors have left even wider subjects unsettled (e.g., I just reread Pohl's MAN PLUS---what do \you/ think interfered with the judgment of the worldnet intelligence?). Moreover, I doubt that it is possible for a human intelligence to encompass all the behaviors and motives even of the principal characters of his world (although I don't recall hearing of Tolkien talking, as many authors do, about his characters telling him he was doing something wrong). One of the things I particularly enjoy about good SF and fantasy is the room they leave for speculation. It's one thing to say that an author is flat-out lying (although his viewpoint characters can be lying or misremembering), but quite another to say that heesh just hasn't settled an issue. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 86 16:37:30 GMT From: goldberg_4b@h-sc4.harvard.edu (Randy Goldberg) Subject: Re: Tolkien's Riddle to enter Moria In point of fact, what the inscription reads is: "Speak friend and enter". Our heroes read this as "Speak, friend, and enter", meaning that friends would have the words. We now know this to mean "Speak _the word_ friend, and enter". The word friend is, of course, mellon. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 86 16:42:53 GMT From: goldberg_4b@h-sc4.harvard.edu (Randy Goldberg) Subject: Re: LOTR I recall in one of his biographies, that JRRT once said that he wished his books (esp. SILMARILLION) to be like a bible, that other authors might come to for germs of stories, and expand upon them. I am truly sorry that we have treted Tolkien's work with an undue amount of reverence, for none has dared to touch them so. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Aug 86 22:13:17 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Shelob From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> >From: Jessie Tharp ops@ncsc >>The origin of Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron is detailed in the >>_Silmarillon_, as are the origins of all other creatures, even >>Shelob and Tom Bombadill. > >I, and others I'm sure, would be grateful if you cite exactly where >Shelob and Tom Bombadil are detailed in "Silmarillion". I am not >aware of such a place, and have always assumed that the material of >LotR and "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil" was all we have. Do I >have an unexpected treat awaiting me? Well, I don't know about Bombadil, but Shelob's origin is specified in THE TWO TOWERS: ``last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world.'' The question of Ungoliant's origin is, however, still open. It is stated in the SILMARILLION ("Quenta Silmarillion", Chapter 8, "Of the Darkening of Valinor") that: ``...there in Avathar, secret and unknown, Ungoliant had made her abode. The Elves knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he had corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust....'' This isn't confirmed, however, so who knows where she came from? Brandon S. Allbery Tridelta Industries, Inc. 7350 Corporate Blvd. Mentor, Ohio 44060 HOME (216) 781-6201 24 hrs. 6615 Center St. Apt. A1-105 Mentor, Ohio 44060-4101 UUCP: decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!tdi2!brandon PHONE: +1 216 974 9210 ARPA: ncoast!allbery%case.CSNET@csnet-relay ------------------------------ Date: Tue 5 Aug 86 01:54:21-CDT From: William DeVaughan <WDEVAUGHAN@STL-HOST1.ARPA> Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #214 Re: Tolkien's opinion of those who tried to make his LOTR world real - I read them in 1965 in graduate school the first time around and was one of the early American correspondents with Professor Tolkien. In my opinion he was neither thrilled nor amused by people who deluded themselves into "believing it was real!" For him, they fell into the same category as those who "insisted on finding allegory" where none was written. He had no pretensions and had little tolerance for those who used his works to give themselves airs by becoming "experts"! It was and remains a really good story! And only that; but what an incredible "only" that is!!! Bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 86 14:55 MST From: Mandel%bco@MULTICS.MIT.EDU Subject: the pirated edition of Lord of the Rings >"who decided to publish LotR without even telling Tolkien, much >less asking him?" That must refer to the pirated Ace editions of the middle '60s. Tolkien's British publishers, George Allen and Unwin, had omitted to secure int'l copyright. Ace, a US pb house, noting this fact & Tolkien's great popularity, thought they'd score a coup by bringing out an unauthorized, but legal, US pb edition. I remember running out to buy those as soon as I heard they existed, as soon as they were on the market. (I did *not* know they were piracies!) When the word got out, the backlash hurt Ace badly -- boycotts, negative publicity -- and if memory serves, they wound up paying Tolkien the royalties they "owed" him in decency and would have owed him in law if the copyright had been observed. He remarked that it was a strange notion of ownership that allowed someone finding on the ground a valuable article of known ownership to appropriate it on the grounds that the owner's name was not properly affixed! Shortly afterward the revised edition appeared, with proper c'right. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 86 19:14:33 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Who or What Is Gandalf? milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes: >I, and others I'm sure, would be grateful if you cite exactly where >Shelob and Tom Bombadil are detailed in "Silmarillion". I am not >aware of such a place, and have always assumed that the material of >LotR and "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil" was all we have. Do I >have an unexpected treat awaiting me? I do not think there is any material on Tom Bombadil in "The Silmarillion", though one may make educated guesses about his origin on the basis of some material in the earlier portions. Now Shelob is a different matter. Though she is not mentioned by name, her origin is clearly described. She is obviously one of the spider-spirits descended from Ungoliant. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 86 00:53:55 GMT From: sphinx.UChicago!see1@caip.rutgers.edu (Ellen Seebacher) Subject: Re: Hobbits et al. > I can. Luthien did it, and with her help, Beren was able to do >it. Also, their daughter Idril did it, she turned into a sea bird >to escape from the sack of the elf havens, and so brought the >Silmaril to her husband, Earendil. Elbereth! Sarima, I'm surprised at you! Luthien and Beren HAD no daughters. Their granddaughter, Elwing, who escaped the sack of Dior (that's their SON, you see)'s home, married Earendil. Idril was an Elf, who married a full human, Tuor -- and bore Earendil. (We all know how JRRT would have been shocked by this kind of implication: Idril and *Earendil*? :-) ) And THAT's off the top of my head. I don't even speak Elvish as well as you! :-) Ellen Keyne Seebacher Univ. of Chicago Comp Ctr. ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!see1 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Aug 86 0757-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #235 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 6 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 235 Today's Topics: Books - Perry, Films - Howard the Duck & Balderunner (2 msgs), Television - Star Trek (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Time Travel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 5 Aug 86 02:21 PDT From: BROCK%sc.intel.com@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA Subject: The Matador Trilogy In reference to Steve Perry's Matador trilogy, would anyone happen to know if Sumito is a product of the Author's imagination, or something borrowed from Real Life? Scott Brock Intel Corp. Folsom, Ca. "Brock%sc.intel.com@csnet-relay.csnet" ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 86 14:55:42 GMT From: trudel@caip.RUTGERS.EDU (John Headroom) Subject: Howard the Duck (review) I had read a little of the Marvel Comic book Howard The Dusk a few years ago, and when I went to the theatre, I tried to enter that mindset. Yah! There are quite a few funny jokes, but also quite a few (if not more) awful and I do mean awful puns in this movie. I screamed in agony at some of them. Howard the Duck is a being from a planet of ducks that is a close parallel to our own. By some method I won't describe, he is brought to our Earth, or more precisely, Cleveland. The movie details his attempt to return to his home. Jeffrey Jones plays a scientist who helps him on his quest. There are so many bad puns, and so few gems in this one that I really can't give this a real rating. I really still don't know whether I liked it or I hated it. For that reason I give this one a -2 AND a +2 because I can't make up my mind. Being that I haven't yet done so, I would start hedging towards the negative. ****Spoiler Warning **** The puns are really bad. They really try too hard. I was expecting awful humor, and I got more than that. The humor was almost as bad as my own, and I don't feel that I have to pay for it (I could just stay at home and do the same if I really wanted to). If they had tried to do a little more in the way of character development, I think I would have liked it much better. Howard looks almost lifelike. I didn't see 'a person in a duck suit' (alright, so there were a few). Some of my friends disagreed, though, but others agreed with me. This choice is best left to the individual. Lea Thompson, well, I just can't give her a negative review. I don't see how any red-blooded, heterosexual male could. She suffers from bad writing, if there be any flaw with her. I mean, "Book 'em, Duck-o" almost made my stomach turn. For those of you who don't remember (I didn't) she played Micheal J. Fox's mother in Back to the Future, and she looks quite different here. The one thing that keeps me from completely panning this film is Jeffrey Jones, who makes an excellent Dark Overlord. The demon scenes are well put together, and decently 'coreographed'. This man is becomming as versatile as John Lithgow in his different roles. This is Big Time Television. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Aug 86 13:27:22 -0400 From: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU> Subject: Blade Runner Brad Templeton writes: >I've seen Blade Runner called a great classic of S.F. in this >group, and it just doesn't measure up. The following are important >in a great SF classic: Oh really? >1) The premise should be at least reasonable > BR's androids are so like people you can't tell them apart. In > a world so paranoid about them that it doesn't allow them on the > Earth, why would this be done? It makes sense for whoredroids, > but for mining robots? The society depicted in BR would have > insisted that the replicants be bright blue or something. > Remember that this society mandated the short life span, since > it was possible to make them immortal from a technical p.o.v. The androids in the movie are the first of a "new breed", the first to "mimic" human emotional responses. The society isn't making the androids, it's the Tyrell Corporation. They probably have the short life span so that they can SELL more of them after they "run down". They're not expected to *want* to be on Earth. The society doesn't care about the androids; it's the police that care. If the androids come to Earth, then as far as they're concerned, the androids are defective. > A lesser complaint (lots of SF movies get away with this one) is > that the technology for complete duplication of human beings > (with superior powers) doesn't really make sense in the > time-frame described. Considering the possibilities with genetic engineering, it's not all that absurd, which is good enough for me. This future isn't going to happen, but that's not the point. This is an idea worth thinking about, and it's not ridiculous. >7) SF should be good and integral to several facets of the film. > If it's going to be an SF classic instead of a film classic, > this must be the case. BR's replicants are not SF. Some people > have credited this movie for making the androids so human. This > is the problem. The story centered around the replicants having > a full set of human emotions. This changed it from a story > about androids to a story about slavery. Had their been an AI > element it might have been SF, but instead the SF was used only > as a vehicle. > > The setting is reasonable SF, but that's not enough when the plot > pretends to be, but isn't Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, WHOA. What prevents a story about slavery from not being SF??? SF doesn't have to be about TECHNOLOGY (although the genetic engineering in the story is technology enough...). SF allows a story about slavery to transcend what is possible in mundane fiction - to be more *profound*. I wish Philip K. Dick was around to defend this point. He wasn't writing about technology, he was writing about what it means to be human (his story was turned around, but to good effect). That the androids had a full set of human emotions was the whole point. They *weren't* just androids, like the previous "models". They were as human as the 'real' humans. >8) You should leave the movie feeling the movie achieved its goal > superbly. I don't know about you, but I left with a "sense of wonder", among other things, which is the best thing that SF movies can do for me. I'm not going to bother arguing that the movie is "Classic SF", but I will defend it. Frank Hollander ARPA: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU CSNET: hollande%udel-dewey@csnet-relay UUCP: ...!harvard!hollande@dewey.udel. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Aug 86 13:42:02 -0400 From: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU> Subject: Blade Runner Perry Metzger writes: >[...] You ought to read Ursula Le Guin's introduction to "The Left >Hand of Darkness". She has quite a lot to say about it. Then >again, you might not like her writing, either. A good suggestion. >I came out of the movie the first time I saw it emotionally >drained. I thought "Damn, THAT WAS A GOOD MOVIE!". Prehaps you >didn't feel it. Luckily, you don't control the film industry. Unfortunately, the film industry has decided, based on BLADE RUNNER, not to make serious SF. Despite the presence of Harrison Ford, the movie was a convincing failure. There will still be low budget films from non-traditional sources, but no serious SF from the big boys... But there will always be Blade Runner. Frank Hollander ARPA: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU CSNET: hollande%udel-dewey@csnet-relay UUCP: ...!harvard!hollande@dewey.udel. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 86 18:57:57 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: good command strategy Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> writes: >Captain Kirk. Ah yes. I remember him. The one who would >routinely take as a scouting party into hostile territory most or >all of his command crew; or leave his heavily armoured security >detail behind while he, the most senior officer present, walked >into danger with perhaps as much as a phaser in his hand [and so on >and on] Yes, interesting point. It has always seemed to me that the way to have a more plausible ST-like scenario was to have some of the "red-shirts" or low-grade science/scouting folks as part of the recurring cast that we become familiar with and identify with. This is sort of the way that WWII films portray aircraft carriers in action. We get to know the command crew, and we get to know some of the mechanics/pilots/whatnot, and then we follow the action from a command decision (taken on the bridge by the bridge crew) through it's effects on the grunts we happen to know. The single worst, silliest, and most fixable thing about the whole ST scenario is this one point. Keep the command crew on the bridge, and develop some grunt characters to implement decisions. I certainly hope this is "fixed" if the ST movies continue, or if a TV series eventuates. But I suppose reasonableness is more than one should hope for... Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Aug 86 17:11:53 -0400 From: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU> To: Alastair Milne <milne@icse.uci.EDU> Cc: Wahl.ES@xerox.COM Subject: Re: Star Trek new characters Alastair Milne writes, in response to Lisa Wahl: >>I'm really surprised to hear all this sentiment about the old ST >>characters being the center of "ST." > >Don't be. I would guess that the majority of people think of Star >Trek as a collection of the most prominent character quirks of its >personalities: Spock's neck pinch and ears, Kirk's obsession with >command and his incessant love affairs (my sister once claimed he >fell in love every episode: demonstrably false, but that was the >impression made), and a general impression that all competent space >engineers are Scots. The deeper and more important components you >mention are unknown or simply uninteresting to the greater number >of people. >Certainly the mainstream population equates Star Trek with "Beam me up, Scotty" and such, but to Star Trek fans, it is much more than the characters. >And for an appendix, they destroyed the whole ship. Not even >logically, by using the antimatter in the warp generators, which >would have done the job instantly, but by a long series of small >explosions. I hate to respond to these kind of comments, but... They destroyed the ship with the self-destruct mechanism. This would not involve the antimatter in the warp generators because in desperate situations the engines might not be available. Given time, they could have rigged a "logical" destruct. They wouldn't design the ship to be easily destroyed, but the option *is* available (and starship captains love to bluff...). >>I think that characters could come and go, as they did in MASH, >>and only make the series stronger. > >Star Trek needs more similarities to M*A*S*H than that. Mostly, it >needs M*A*S*H's writers. They proved that it is in fact physically >possible for a Hollywood series to have fine writing. Star Trek >occasionally rose above the masses (of Hollywood junk) in its >writing: but that wasn't difficult. Frequently it didn't. Yes and no. Star Trek can continue in the same way that MASH did, but not with MASH's writers. What Star Trek needs is Star Trek's original writers and producers, etc. Included were science fiction writers, whose scripts were edited into forms suitable for ST. Also, good scripts from normal Hollywood writers were used. There was no shortage of bad scripts, or scripts that did not fit the ST format. But these scripts were simply not used. Fine writing was the rule, not the exception. During the final (third) season, the quality deteriorated, but that was because Gene Roddenberry stopped his tight control of the production (because of what he felt was a broken promise from the studio). Yes, Star Trek needs quality writing. Not enough can be said about that. >>I WANT to see a new Star Trek with the same setting, background, >>the same "to boldly go" theme, but with new people. Let's have >>another strong Captain, another fascinating alien, some new >>personality types. Saavik was a great addition, as far as she >>went. We need more new people like her. Amen. >My feeling at this point is that ST has run its course. It's >possible to run a good thing right into the ground, and I can see >that coming for ST. Unless they can do something significant with >a new series, I wouldn't even bother trying. One factor is that the ideas in Star Trek were positive responses to the problems of the 60's. It is necessary for ST to maintain the old tradition, while responding to new problems. The fact that what ST represents is no longer fashionable is not the fault of Star Trek. I wouldn't argue if you said that right now Star Trek is being run into the ground. >However, I would really like to see Saavik properly developed. >Hopefully Kirstee Allie has by now fired the agent who lost her the >part for ST III. With no discourtesy intended to Robin Curtis, I >find Ms. Allie much more convincing in the part. As a >Romulan/Vulcan mix, Saavik is unique on the show, and worth >exploring. Don't be so sure that Allie's agent is at "fault". If she wanted to maintain her role as Saavik, she could have done so. She simply decided to do other things. And how did you find out that Saavik is half-Romulan? It isn't mentioned in either of the movies... ...although it's "true". (correct me if I'm wrong) Frank Hollander ARPA: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU CSNET: hollande%udel-dewey@csnet-relay UUCP: ...!harvard!hollande@dewey.udel. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 86 19:29:10 GMT From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment dobro@ulowell.UUCP (Gryphon) writes: >Short summary: the existEnce of an additional type of energy (tau) >is discovered. Seems that this energy is created (no comments :-}) >whenever another form of energy is released. This tau energy >travels back in time a distance directly proportional to the amount >of energy. SO, these guys who discovered this (who also happen to >be hackers) design a machine to monitor recption of this type of >energy. Then they experiment by sending forward (sorry, it can go >forward or back, distance proportional ...) and having the future >people send messages back. Close enough: The radiation was (in every instance I can remember) sent back in time. Sending it forward in time is: a) No trick (read, "fun") at all. It happens all the time. This posting is going forward in time, and will reach you all at a time later than it was sent. b) Inconclusive. It doesn't show any real change in the universe. Say, in 1941, I send you (here/now) a note saying, "The Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor," would you do anything different? c) Impossible in the context of the story, I believe. [FYI, the information is passed as "bleeps", pulses of tau radiation, in a basic serial computer transmission, picked up at the other end by the same computer.] >Now, Hogan also came up with what the characters called the 'reset >factor'. This was basically that certain amounts of tau radiation >will be constantly jumping back and forward and changing things, >even as minor as the placement of a single molecule. But, that can >have unforseen affects. However, once a change is made in the past, >reality is retroactively reset to have that as its past. Scary >thought. Yeah, but it doesn't happen often (it took the old guy YEARS to prove it even existed), and only interacts on an atomic level. Barely, at that. kaufman@orion.arpa kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Aug 86 0812-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #236 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 6 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 236 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 aug 86 03:24:55 gmt From: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu (catherine ariel wolffe) Subject: re: *aliens* (spoilers) srt@locus.ucla.edu (scott turner) writes: >Most of the replies to my original objections to *ALIENS* have been >pretty lame. And why are they all cast as "refutations"? I'm not >Ghod handing down the Commandments - it would be acceptable simply >to argue. > >The bad thing about all the replies is that they all either >postulate some kind of explanation that has no basis in the movie >or refer to the book. Personally I feel that the movie has to >stand on its own and be internally consistent without reference to >a "book" that is written after the movie and with a conscious >intention to explain away problems in the movie. Books are sometimes written after the screenplay, but the play the novelist has is usually quite a bit longer than the shooting script. And the book also has the writer's imagination. But the book is not written with the "conscious intention to explain away problems in the movie". It is written to be just that: a book. >As far as using deep sleep to conserve on oxygen/food/living space, >I see several objections. First of all, in a deep space craft you >can carry just about as much as you want, especially of things like >oxygen and food, if you are willing to stick them outside of the >battle structure. You just hook a container of LOX on the outside. >Second, why waste all the time during the journey? Why not use the >time to prepare for the coming mission? This is an emergency >rescue, after all. Finally, there has to be some sort of danger in >using deep sleep. Would you be willing to let yourself be >frozen/chemically slowed to save 17 days? Not me. It was explained in the original script that the Nostromo could only support the crew for a few days. Then the air scubbers would not be able to clean the air sufficiently for humans to survive. Also deep sleep makes sense from an energy conscious point of view. This ship is intrasystem. It does not have solar collectors for they would be useless. It was never explained in the original script (a screenplay over 800 pages in length which I was able to borrow from a friend) what the ship ran on, but I am inclined to believe some sort of fusion reactor. And trying to maintain FTL travel probably needs constant propulsion (considering it took months only to get to Earth from wherever the refinery was picked up and Lambert could not find Alpha Centauri when Mother woke them would lead to travelling faster than light). So the ship would need most of the power to maintain the thrust and the internal power to the computer. But it would not need heat, nor air, nor would it have to turn raw materials into edibles and comestibles. And what would happen to the LOX container during re-entry? The ship was immense, but still very cramped inside. So there would be no extra room available. As for the marines, they had nothing to prove that the aliens existed. The Company took care of that. And the Company wanted to bring these creatures back to Earth. So why equip the Marines with the necessary firepower to destroy the aliens? The ship had nukes, but the Company would be extremely obvious in removing the pre-placed armaments on a non-Company ship. And why not use deep-sleep? Sure, there is a risk. There is also a risk in stepping outside your home. There is even a risk that you will die on the operating table from the anasthesia only. To these people, the risk is the same as getting into a car. And the major bugs have been worked out already. >Mumblety-Peg. Urrgh. Everyone replied that "Bishop was fully >aware that he wasn't going to harm Hudson". Not so! Bishop cut >his own hand, remember? Hudson's hand was on top of Bishop's hand, >remember? Therefore, Bishop could very well have cut Hudson's >hand, right? Therefore, Bishop should never have played the game >in the first place, right? Who said the Artificial People work under Asimov's Laws? It is not in either books, nor the movies, nor the original screenplay. Bishop might have cut himself when he first picked up the knife and tested the feel of it. He does not have "pain" sensors, or he would have noticed the cut immediately. And Bishop believed he was not going to hurt Hudson. So that gets around the Asimov Laws. >Using Weapons Under the Thermal Converters. Yes, I was aware that >the "thermal overload" was already underway. That DOESN'T mean >that it was now safe for Ripley to use her weapons in a carte >blanche fashion. If I'm wandering around in a fusion reactor >that's going to overload and blow sky-high in ten minutes, the last >thing I'm going to do is go around shooting the place up and hasten >the process. I think Ellen Ripley really didn't care. She had one purpose, and she was not going to let anything stand in her way. And she saw that even a smart gun (what Drake and Vasques carried) didn't really affect the coolant system one way or another. >Hovering Out of Sight of the Platform. Justify this all you want. >Clearly the movie-makers just wanted to build a little tension at >this point. It makes no sense at all. There is too much wind >inside a building for a landing craft to hover near the platform? >Yeah, THAT seems likely. And I said hover NEAR the platform, not >OVER the platform. I'm well aware of Newton's laws, thank you, and >I realize that hovering over the platform would have strained the >platform (not to mention putting Ripley in the jet wash as she left >the elevator), but it was just tension building (and cheap movie- >making) to have the craft hovering out of sight. And how would >Bishop know when to return? And why didn't he return immediately? In the movie, Bishops said he had to leave the platform because it was unsteady, and he said he had to circle the building. Obviously he had to circle at a lower altitude. And the winds in the building were caused by the many smaller explosions. One of these pushed the drop ship over the platform. >Cheap Movie Making. Ripley's dream. Need I say more? How cheap >can you get? Ripley's dream was supposed to be a recurring nightmare. She probably had her apartment and her place of work as settings for these nightmares. And wouldn't you have nightmares if you went through what ahe went through? These nightmares also contributed to her going back to LV-237. >Leaving the Landing Doors Open on the Shuttle. Please don't blame >this on the incompetent commander. He wasn't even there. At any >rate, professional soldiers aren't that dumb - especially not after >they've survived a few missions. They have protocols beaten in to >them, and they follow them. In a large part, that's what makes >them survive. It is a secured area. There is no reason for constant watch. Besides, they might have been loading something at the time, and then got the order. >If the marines go in prepared for the Aliens, its a wipeout. They >wear acid resistant armor, take the right sorts of weapons, etc. >To keep that from happening, the Company completely ignores >Ripley's warning. Why? Here's a trusted (in command of a >multi-billion dollar spaceship) employee who's just survived a 57 >year space trip to bring a warning to the Company. Can't the >Company at least try to confirm her story? No, because that means >the marines would go in prepared. And what happened to the >indications in the earlier story that the Company knew about the >Aliens in the first place? Originally, the Company did not know what was there. That is why the Nostromo diverted course. Ash had secondary programming which said to get and preserve any xenomorphs, even at the expense of the crew. The Company doctored the ship log to remove any trace of the alien. So it knew about the alien. And the Company was more interested in profit than heroism. >If the marines can get back up to the orbital ship, they blow up >the place and the story's over. So the marines do two *idiotic* >things: Leave the ramp on the landing craft open and unguarded and >take everyone to the surface. See above for details on the drop ship explanation. And why take any unnecessary crew? They just sit on the ship and use precious energy from the ship. And each person was trained for a specific part of the mission. If you are going to ship these people all that distance, you are probably going to use them if possible. And there was no reason the expect any real trouble. The Marines heard the "official" version first, the Ripley's version. And the "official" version is more acceptable. >It's a lot more suspenseful if the marines go into the lair >unarmed, so another couple of strange twists: The aliens build >their lair a long way from their food source, under a nuclear >reactor (why?), and the marines don't retreat out to re-arm more >appropriately. The area under the reactor is warm and safe. The eggs were in the deepest part of the alien ship in the original. The aliens might have brought food to the nest already. That is instinct. And the Marines could not retreat when surrounded. They tried. And only Hicks, Hudson, and Vasques made it into the APC. They were going to go into orbit and nuke the place, but the drop ship was destroyed. >In order to get some good firefights, the aliens are constantly >sneaking up on the humans from above or below - as if space marines >would somehow be blind to 3-d tactics. And even if they were once, >wouldn't they catch on sooner or later? These are not Space Marines, but are obviously land based. Their weapons show this. The guns have a kick (which could be fatal to wielder and allies in zero-G of space), they seem to need oxygen. The aliens only attacked in two waves, one in the reactor area, one in the complex. In the first attack, the aliens were using 3-D fighting, but this was in an open area. They hung to the walls, hung to the ceilings, hid in the resin formations, in truth using all available means of guerrilla warfare. The second time was a completely different setting. The survivers did not know of any way the aliens could have gotten into the overhead ducts. So they did not think to check there. >In order to get Bishop out of the action and build suspense, we >make him pilot the ship down on remote from near the antenna. >First of all, we could build a ship today that could land near a >beacon on automatic. Second, if we can build an android >indistinguishable from a human, wouldn't we put at least an AI >personality on board the orbital ship? Third, why does Bishop have >to pilot using a keyboard and joystick? He doesn't have a remote >plug or radio link built in? I don't know about the ship landing itself on a beam from the beacon. Why include it when there will probably be no beacons where the ships land? Bishop used a keyboard to activate the drop ship and release it. The comp system which did this is more then likely part of the main computer. He had to give specific instructions to set the acts into motion. The joystick is used to pilot the ship, because the main control in the cockpit is a joystick. A remote plug might be possible, but it was not used. A radio link would be too bulky if it was to be able to broadcast on any chosen frequency, at a large distance, and fit into a crammed space, such as Bishop's body. >And this just goes on and on. It's like a cheap horror film where >sixteen people have been killed in the basement and the heroine >decides to check it out in her nightgown and one flickering candle. >At some point you have to say "C'mon!". I didn't think *Alien* was >too bad in this respect, but *Aliens* reeks of cheap, calculated >movie-making. How many splatter films have the main characters wanting to leave the place where the killings take place in the first half of the movie? And how many gore films have the heroine track the killer(s) with a small armory on her back? Catherine Ariel Wolffe ------------------------------ Date: Mon 4 Aug 86 16:34:00-CDT From: Douglas Good <CMP.DOUG@R20.UTEXAS.EDU> Subject: More Aliens... Here are yet more answers to questions that have not yet been answered yet. Of course we all should realize that a lot of these questions probably already have answers and we're just discussing them to enlighten ourselves... About the first Alien being meaner than the others, we don't know what sort of food the Aliens like to munch on so perhaps the first alien found something to stimulate his growth in the ship. Not to mention he had the whole ship to himself while the others had to share the colony. Another answer is that the aliens are indeed psychic in a way (this seems very likely to me) and he knew he was all alone so he was developing into a queen (oops, make that a she). The other aliens probably don't develop that far because a queen already exists and either they don't want to have two queens or any other queens would be killed off. I think that the aliens that were contained in the chambers (the five- legged type) were drugged up pretty severly. This would explain why they didn't move (except for one movement which could be equal to twitching while asleep, bad dreams perhaps?) and why it took them so long to attack Ripley when they were lose in the room. By the way, I thought this scene was very well done and had an incredibly nightmarish atmosphere about it. Perhaps the guy from the company (forgot his name) drugged Ripley and that's why she didn't hear him moving around. Of course it could also be that he being such a slimey person simply slithered into the room without being heard... Doug ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 86 06:34:20 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com Subject: Alien height From: fai!ronc (Ronald O. Christian) > It's been awhile since I saw the original Alien, but I remember > the alien as not growing to more than man high. I remember > because it struck me at the time as a very convenient size to hide > a man inside a costume. No, the original Alien was taller than an average human. The man inside the Alien suit was circa seven feet tall. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 86 17:38:51 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Kill those Aliens! KILL THOSE DAMN ALIENS! The opinion has been expressed that the aliens should be exterminated like smallpox. I happen to agree with that point of view. After all, they kill all of the inhabitant race of the planet they come in contact with. Consider the facts: The inhabitants discovered the planet an indeterminant period of time before the aliens came in the first film. The inhabitants had already colonized the planet, laying their eggs. They had found some sort of an ecological niche that by the second film is clear would sustain them for many years to come. Apparently the planet is viable for them. Also it is clear that the inhabitant race is intelligent. It has a right to its planet. When the aliens came and started building their own colony, changing the ecology of the planet -- luckily not enough to kill the hearty inhabitant race -- that was bad enough. (Apparently the aliens are too wimpy to live in a wide range of conditions the way the inhabitants of the planet are.) But in the second film they have brought killing machines with them to attack the citizens of the planet. (Pity, the aliens would have made at least fair incubation material for the inhabitants if they hadn't turned out to be intelligent.) It is sad that ALIENS is one more of those downbeat horror films in which the monsters win. Technological societies always seems to do better than societies that live more in harmony with nature because technology builds better weapons. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Aug 86 0840-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #237 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 6 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 237 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Aug 86 06:30:31 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com Subject: Some speculations concerning ALIENS In discussing some points of ALIENS, and the discussion herein about it, with some friends, a couple of things came to mind to explain some inconsistencies in the film. (1) Hicks says that once they were determined to be missing (ie. didn't report in), it'd be 17 days before a relief squad would show up. A complaint has been made that this isn't consistent with how long it should have taken the Sulaco to reach Acheron. Aside from the points that others have made (in ALIEN, they were 10 months from Earth when everything happened; technology has improved in ~60 years; they're using a combat ship, not a tug), it should also be pointed out that nowhere is it said that the relief expedition has to be coming from Earth. The Sulaco does, because Burke wanted Ripley along, and the two of them were on Earth (or rather, they were on Gateway), but another ship could well come from a planet that's closer to Acheron. (2) It was obvious that the Company knew about the Alien in the first film. How come they didn't seem to know about it in the second? Possible scenario: Company ship somewhere receives message, relays it to Company. Someone there manages to decode message, which tells about Alien. Some executive is told and decides, like Burke later, that he could further his career by getting this thing back for their Weapons Division. He orders the Nostromo rerouted and Ash reprogrammed. It's possible that very few other Company officials know about this (executive doesn't want others taking his glory away from him). When the Nostromo is never heard from again, executive destroys evidence of the rerouting, otherwise he could be blamed for it. Or, if many Company officials know about this, perhaps they destroy the evidence just to make sure the insurance company doesn't find out that Company deliberately sent the Nostromo into danger, otherwise they maybe not pay off. At any rate, in the intervening three dozen years, the incident is forgotten, or everyone who knew about it died. The planet Acheron, at this time, may have been discovered by chance or some record found in the Company files somewhere referring to it as possibly harboring some alien life form. So, a colony is set up. Routine surveys are done, but most effort is put into trying to terraform the planet. <Big hole --- I find it difficult to believe that they could have made Acheron that inhabitable in only twenty years. Twenty *decades*, maybe.> Surveys are moderate at best. The derelict could be quite far from the colony, so it may never have been detected. The beacon is a problem, but it's *not* impossible that it could have failed somewhere in the 37 years before the colony was started. A little coincidental, perhaps, but synchronicity is what makes life so much fun. So, when Ripley gets back, no one in the Company believes her because none of the present management saw the first movie, so they don't know about the Nostromo. Or perhaps it *was* just a cover-up to deceive any Colonial Administration observers or whomever. But Burke at least believes her, and he sets things in motion that we see in ALIENS. Variation on old joke: 1st man: "Help! Help! I have an Alien on my face!" 2nd man: "I'm sorry, sir, but you'll have to speak up. You have an Alien on your face." --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 3 Aug 86 00:35:20 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: re: Mark Leeper's review of ALIENS In regards to ALIENS being too easy to kill. I've always hated the alien menaces that were impervious to bullets. Bullets pack a hell of a lot of destructive force. Armor piercing, explosive tipped bullets should do a lot of damage, regardless of the construction of the alien exoskeleton. (umm. I wasn't really noticing at the time, but the alien exoskeleton seemed built like a regular endoskeleton, complete with muscle attachment points and such. Definitely a scary design, but not really efficient. perhaps the alien was using force field muscles, or something? In which case nothing could have killed them, and we would have had an extremely dull story) We had a couple of scenes demonstrating the aliens' overall toughness. They batter through a door at the colony (but the queen doesn't batter through a door on the cruiser. I thought that that was a good touch. Cruiser doors are much better armored than colony doors). One of the warriors broke through the external glass in the troop carrier. I thought that was stupid-- the glass shouldn't be that easy to batter. We didn't see any sign that it dripped its molecular acid onto the glass first, to soften it. If the glass was that easy to break, there shouldn't be any glass on the carrier anyway. Oh well. Someone mentioned that the guns used 10mm rounds, and they couldn't see how 100 rounds would fit in the clip. Someone else thought that the digital readout was registering percentage, rather than actual rounds. Umm. The rounds could be very short (10mm in height), and could fit in the clip sideways, or 10/row, or something. Not a very likely possibility, I'm afraid. As to the percentage readouts, it seemed to me that the readout decremented by one each time it fired. I'd say that it was an actual count. I've some quibbles about the display itself. It looked like your average red led display. My old calculator had a red led display--the display was illegible in anything approaching daylight. They should have used back-lit lcd's (yeah, I know, picky picky). Which brings up another point--the low technology in the film. I could understand fashions being almost indistinguishable from modern fashions. Fashion doesn't have to be reasonable. Anyway, the loader that Ripley was walking about was powered by what seem to be hydraulic cylinders. Computer displays were crt's (Oh. I liked Burkes' biscard. Entirely reasonable. Seemed like a good enough idea that people ought to be doing it in 10 years). Major weapons were still slug throwers and flame throwers (not really much of a quibble; it maybe that slug throwers are the best that can be done for personal armament). About the only advance in weaponry seems to be the ability to stick many cubic feet of ammo or fuel into a few cubic inches (the fuel for the flame throwers and the welder/cutting torches, the ammo for the machine guns). The motion sensor seems a bit strange. I thought that whatever they were using on the Nostromo was based on detecting motions in the air. They shouldn't have been able to see past an air-tight door. The detectors the military were using were much superior to this. I can't see how they were supposed to work. It seems that once the companies took over Earth, most innovation and scientific research stopped. The hyperdrive was probably invented sometime before the corporate state developed. I wonder if the other companies are as generally sleazy as Ripley's. Probably. david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 86 00:31:58 edt From: markl@borax.lcs.mit.edu Subject: alien evolution? Has anybody given any thought to the following?: Due to some sad hard luck on the part of the Nostromo's crew, the facehugger that fastened itself to J. Random Crewmember's face in *ALIEN* was a young queen. The young queen grew up to be a big queen. She was big, mean, and nasty (yes, the biggest, meanest, nastiest father-raper of them all :-), just like her counterpart in *ALIENS*. And since she was a queen, she had the ability to impregnate Dallas (whom Ripley was forced to kill in the book). Actually, she might just have quickly laid an egg and let that hatch while Dallas was cocooned... Also, if the facehuggers are really "analyzers", they must be able to analyze at a distance. Otherwise, how do they know that Jonesie would not be a viable host? And how do they know, without fastening on to them, that Ripley and Newt *are* viable hosts? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 86 20:26:27 edt From: markl@borax.lcs.mit.edu Subject: mumblety-peg, android style Uh, I may be missing something, but I thought that Bishop covered Hudson's hand with his own before starting to play. And it seemed like he wiped a drop of "blood" from one of his fingers afterward, drawing a wiseass comment from one of the grunts about "losing his touch". Mark L. Lambert markl@borax.lcs.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 86 17:35:06 GMT From: fritzz@net1.UCSD.EDU (Friedrich Knauss) Subject: Knife Games in Aliens, and more BB trivia. The Knife Game in Aliens (mistakenly called mumbelty peg) seems to come from a movie called _Dark Star_ that was made by the producer of the original Alien: Dan O'Bannon. I wonder if it was on purpose. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 86 17:20:55 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: plausibility in movies (re: aliens) srt@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU writes: > Most of the replies to my original objections to *ALIENS* have > been pretty lame. And why are they all cast as "refutations"? Lame? Just what do you mean? You put forth "X is implausible". Folks reply "X follows naturally from Y". This is lame? Oh, I see: > The bad thing about all the replies is that they all either > postulate some kind of explanation that has no basis in the movie > or refer to the book. Personally I feel that the movie has to > stand on its own and be internally consistent without reference to > a "book" that is written after the movie and with a conscious > intention to explain away problems in the movie. Strange. Take *ANY* movie on these grounds, and it falls apart. Let's look at, say, any WWII movie that includes reference to the extermination camps, or the persecution of the Jews. You are asking me to beleive that all those Jews went to the camps with relatively little struggle? You mean nobody in the general population helped them? What's that? You say it's plausible if you remember the social climate of the time, the Nazi rise to power, the powerful effect of Hitler's rhetoric? But they didn't show any of that in the movie! The movie doesn't stand on it's own! A movie is finite. It is not possible to show justifications for every possible implausibility. Thus, in order for an apparent inconsistency to really be a "hole" in a movie, there must be no plausible explanation. I'd take any explanation which includes only elements already in the movie, or extrapolated from current or historical situations, as being "plausible". Stretching a point, explanations that draw on scenarios current in the genre, in this case relatively-near- future-SF-extrapolated-from-Western-Society, would also count as "plausible". Since in every case, plausible explanations (according to the above criteria) were provided to your "objections", I'd say it is quite fair to class these replies as "refutations". Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 86 17:24:38 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: are the Aliens eeee-vil? OK, I agree with those that think the Aliens aren't evil. But I still say, "nuke 'em from orbit"! It's the only way to be sure! More seriously, is Ripley as "bad" as Rambo? In my opinion, no. If there were a real alien race that had the approximate characteristics of the Aliens, and if the movie portrayal were an intentionally distorted, biased, caricature of these aliens, then my opinion might change. But if the Aliens *really* existed, and if they were *really* as they were portrayed in the movie, then NUKE 'EM FROM ORBIT! IT'S THE ONLY WAY TO BE SURE! :-) (Good slogan for a T-shirt, no? :-) Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4-AUG-1986 21:24 EDT From: Ronald A. Jarrell <JARRELLRA%VTMATH.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> Subject: Aliens In the book (and in the movie too, if you know what they're trying to show from having read the book) the reason that spunkmeyer left the dropship and left the ramp down was that he was delivering a cart of supplies to Bishop in the medlab "This all you need? Bishop? Yo Bishop!" (or some such) He was just getting back to the dropship when Hicks called for recall. Ron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 86 14:27:15 EDT From: Michael Laufer <mlaufer@cct.bbn.com> Subject: Aliens Several people have mentioned Vasquez's comment "Lets ROCK". This comes from the expression to "Rock and Roll". Apart from its musical meaning this is military jargon meaning to fire your weapon on full automatic (like a machine gun). Whether such jargon will really be around in N number of years to use on such cute "bugs" is another question. As to some of the comments on the military advisability of leaving no people on the space transport and the lander standing with its ramp open in hostile territory, I think that any halfway decent military service would have standard operating procedures against such stupidity. HOWEVER from the way that this operation was being run I was not surprised to see it. The officer in charge appeared to be a total incompetent, and such people will often not carry out SOP. Even more incredible was the neat high tech way he had of "leading" his men. Any military orginization that does not have the officers with their men but in some safe area directing the operations deserves, and WILL inevitably, get its a-s kicked. Without leadership to quickly make decisions and know the REAL situation by BEING there, they will f--k up. What soldiers will want to go into some sticky situation that their commander is not willing to go into with them? I realize that this was deliberately done this way in the movie but it still burned me up. Michael Laufer mlaufer@bbn.com (ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 86 16:28:36 GMT From: rayssd!m1b@caip.rutgers.edu (M. Joseph Barone) Subject: Re: Asimov's 1st Law and Aliens joel@peora.UUCP (Joel Upchurch) writes: >A robot or android programmed with Asimov's 1st law couldn't be >used as crew on a military vessel, since it would do everything in >its power to prevent the humans aboard from putting themselves into >dangerous situations, even if the humans ordered it to do so. If the robot were programmed with the 0th law of robotics, he could, would, and would probably insist that they go down. The welfare of the human race would outweigh the welfare of a few individuals. Of course, his name would have been R. Giskard or R. Daneel. :-) Joe Barone {allegra,cci632,gatech,ihnp4,linus,mirror,raybed2}!rayssd!m1b Raytheon Co Submarine Signal Div. 1847 West Main Rd Portsmouth, RI 02871 ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 86 10:42:00 GMT From: nomura@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: ALIENS inconsistency ? The timing of the destruction of the colony isn't a coincidence. There is a conversation between Ripley and Burke, where she confronts him with the order he issued which set the colonists onto the infected alien ship, resulting in their infection. Probably Ripley gave the coordinates of the ship, which had previously gone unnoticed, and only then was the Company able to investigate it. Though that does bring up the question of the dead ship's distress beacon - it should have been noticed. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Aug 86 0843-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #238 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 6 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 238 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Aug 86 17:22:49 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: *ALIENS* (Spoilers) >Deep Sleep. [...] First of all, in a deep space craft you can >carry just about as much as you want, especially of things like >oxygen and food, if you are willing to stick them outside of the >battle structure. Absolute garbage. Parts is parts, mass is mass. The more mass, the more energy to move the mass, and the more expensive. This is as true in deep space as in shallow. For the forseeable future, spacecraft will be mass limited to one extent or another. (Yes, I know that the Nostromo was an entire factory in space. Doesn't affect this argument... the time scales are enough different.) >Would you be willing to let yourself be frozen/chemically slowed to >save 17 days? Not me. Then don't join the Colonial Marines, see if I care. >Mumblety-Peg. Hudson's hand was on top of Bishop's hand, remember? No, I don't remember it that way at all. Maybe I'm editing my memory of the scene, but it makes sense only if Bishop is *holding* *down* Hudson's hand. And even if your objection were true, this would be the most miniscule of consistency slips... I would guess that 90% of movies contain worse blunders. I *still* rate Aliens as easily in the top 10% of movies, rated on consistency alone. >Using Weapons Under the Thermal Converters. Yes, I was aware that >the "thermal overload" was already underway. That DOESN'T mean >that it was now safe for Ripley to use her weapons in a carte >blanche fashion. It is enough if Ripley merely *thought* it was now safe. It is fairly clear that it is plausible for her to think that an already failed plant couldn't be further damaged, so your objection is moot. And further: >If I'm wandering around in a fusion reactor that's going to >overload and blow sky-high in ten minutes, the last thing I'm going >to do is go around shooting the place up and hasten the process. The point is that you *DON'T* *KNOW* that shooting things up would hasten the process. Ripley may well know better than you do... assuming that she is more ignorant than the movie viewers about her own universe is what is technically known as "picky, picky, picky". Since her actions make perfect sense if we just assume she knows what she's doing on this point, it's not reasonable to call this inconsistent. Why should we assume that she was correct in her (explicit) prediction of disaster the first time, and incorrect in her (implicit) prediction of (relative) safety the second time? As Tommy Fenagin would say: "Well, now you're just being silly!" >Hovering Out of Sight of the Platform. Justify this all you want. I don't have to justify. This is clearly your weakest point. Bishop explains himself in the movie just before the Queen makes synthetic mincemeat out of him. Your specific additional quibbles are also feeble: >Clearly the movie-makers just wanted to build a little tension at >this point. So what? They "built the tension" plausibly. >There is too much wind inside a building for a landing craft to >hover near the platform? Yeah, THAT seems likely. Just look at the scale of the building. It is the size of a small mountain. You don't think that a large crevice in a mountain could have gale-force winds blowing around? With large thermal gradients to feed them, as there were here? To call this implausible is perverse. >And how would Bishop know when to return? And why didn't he return >immediately? He was watching from wherever he was waiting. It takes finite time to move the landing craft. What's the big deal? >Cheap Movie Making. Ripley's dream. Need I say more? How cheap >can you get? Maybe. But they wanted to show *us* what it was like for *Ripley* to have this dream... to actually think it was real. This is a fairly common technique, used in many films. So, yes, you need to say more. Why was this any cheaper than finding out at the end of the Wizard of OZ that the *entire* *movie* had been a dream? And this was even a departure from the books! Talk about cheap! So I'd conclude that again, Aliens rates better than many movies on "cheapness-of-dream- sequences". >Leaving the Landing Doors Open on the Shuttle. Please don't blame >this on the incompetent commander. He wasn't even there. At any >rate, professional soldiers aren't that dumb - especially not after >they've survived a few missions. They have protocols beaten in to >them, and they follow them. In a large part, that's what makes >them survive. Sigh. You have answered your own objections. "They have protocols beaten into them". Yep. And the commander declared the area "secured". So they followed the protocols for a secured area. Claiming that "professional soldiers aren't that dumb" flies in the face of reality. Again, what's the big deal? >The real objection I have to the movie is that that plot is so >obviously constructed to fit suspense/adventure story needs. Just >look at the kinds of strange plot twists that are used: If the plot was constructed differently, without plot twists and so on, it is no longer a suspense/adventure story. So what is your objection? That they didn't make the story your way? You wanted maybe a comedy? Poor baby! >If the marines go in prepared for the Aliens, its a wipeout. So what? "If the Navy had been prepared at Pearl Harbor." "If the Bay of Pigs invasion had been better prepared." "If Custer had had some Uzi automatic weapons." "If pigs had wings." Your objections that the company "Would have trusted Ripley" are just silly. People who "ought" to be trusted are ignored, and their advice discarded every day. >If the marines can get back up to the orbital ship, they blow up >the place and the story's over. So the marines do two *idiotic* >things: Leave the ramp on the landing craft open and unguarded and >take everyone to the surface. Monday morning quarterbacking can make anybody look like a hero. >It's a lot more suspenseful if the marines go into the lair >unarmed, so another couple of strange twists: The aliens build >their lair a long way from their food source, under a nuclear >reactor (why?), and the marines don't retreat out to re-arm more >appropriately. Again, so what? You object to suspense? Suspenseful or not, it is *plausible* that it could have happened that way (or at least, not bad enough to disturb most folks suspension of disbelief). It certainly wasn't as implausible as some things that are known to have happened. Also, you are playing fast and loose with the facts presented in the movie. People aren't a "food source"... they are a reproductive resource. We don't know from either movie what the aliens eat. Being away from the colony might have many, many advantages, like making a sneak counter-attack on the Queen more difficult. There are many, many plausible reasons for the Aliens to prefer the environment under the cooling system to that of the colony. And they don't re-arm more appropriately because at that time they don't believe Ripley's notions of what is appropriate. Face it. It's all quite sensible. It's only the Monday morning quarterback syndrome that might make it seem otherwise. >In order to get some good firefights, the aliens are constantly >sneaking up on the humans from above or below - as if space marines >would somehow be blind to 3-d tactics. And even if they were once, >wouldn't they catch on sooner or later? Name the instances of "constantly sneaking". As far as I can see, there was only one, and that was because they didn't know that the ceiling cavity was common to all the rooms. The other instances of "sneaking up" don't need one to assume that the marines were forgeting anything. There was enough going on that it was plausible that they simply couldn't keep a 360 degree lookout. They didn't need to forget that 3d exists... they merely couldn't look in all directions at once. (And they weren't "space marines". They were "colonial marines". There is no particular reason for them to be any more mindful of 3-d-ness than any other folks.) >In order to get Bishop out of the action and build suspense, we >make him pilot the ship down on remote from near the antenna. >First of all, we could build a ship today that could land near a >beacon on automatic. Second, if we can build an android >indistinguishable from a human, wouldn't we put at least an AI >personality on board the orbital ship? Third, why does Bishop have >to pilot using a keyboard and joystick? He doesn't have a remote >plug or radio link built in? Sigh. None of this is remotely *implausible*. I mean really, why are so many bathrooms made to make defecation difficult? Why aren't houses designed more ergonomically? Why are cars internal combustion when other alternatives are more efficent? Why are so many computer terminals QWERTY when Dvorak is "better"? Why do humans still have an appendix? Why are people so picky about some movies while (presumably) overlooking gaping holes in others? >It's like a cheap horror film where sixteen >people have been killed in the basement and the heroine decides to check it >out in her nightgown and one flickering candle. At some point you have to >say "C'mon!". I didn't think *Alien* was too bad in this respect, but >*Aliens* reeks of cheap, calculated movie-making. Gad, what a warped sense of proportion. If Aliens reeks, then most other movies must require total-environment suits for the audience to avoid the stench. I mean really, the points you are picking on are about as plausible as *real* events, let alone as plausible as events from other movies. Lighten up, guy. Sheesh. Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 86 00:52:23 GMT From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: Oooh, A Fight! A Fight! (And more _ALIENS_) srt@CS.UCLA.EDU (Scott Turner) writes: >That's an interesting stand. I doubt you'd like a book that >couldn't be interpreted - either from a conceptual or literary >standpoint - without aid of another book. (Except perhaps as >"experimental" literature.) Ever hear of a "trilogy"? Most multivolume books don't stand on their own. More to the point, a lot of literature, as distillation and presentation of cultural archetypes, relies on a knowledge of other cultural archetypes as CONTEXT. There is also a good deal of tradition in storytelling. Most of your gripes about Aliens had to do with your apparent innocence with regards to those traditions. Science fiction as a genre has answered most of your TECHNICAL objections with "This is the way it is, these are the conventions of the postulated technology, now we will explore how this affects people". >> If they had no FTL of some kind, then how did they get from >> Gateway to Acheron in less than a month? You tell us, Scott. > >If they had FTL, why did they use cold sleep? Not to save mass, as >you suggest, since normal physics of acceleration don't matter and >17 days of O2 masses considerably less than a room full of sleep >equipment. You tell us, hutch. Who says normal physics of acceleration don't matter? Since the FTL was not explained, any arguments we make are speculation. Your speculation is as good as mine, as long as it fits with what they presented us. However, we should be careful not to put our own assertions in and then complain that the movie was inconsistent because it violated them. And, as I pointed out before, there is a distinct possibility that they couldn't use the gravity generators while accelerating to FTL. In that case, they may go into coldsleep because they want to keep from losing calcium from their bones and making other potentially harmful adaptations to zero gravity. As was demonstrated, coldsleep greatly slows down those kinds of physical processes (Ripley's hair only grew 4 inches in 57 years). >And had you been there, spraying gunfire, the tower would have gone >up before you'd gotten anywhere near Newt. I don't object to >Ripley using gunfire as a last resort, but she went in intending to >shoot the place up, which is both dumb and out of character. The tower did not go up because the weapons were too small to cause an immediate breakdown of the fusion plant controls. The plant went because of the cumulative damage to the coolant systems caused by Valdez' weapons and the crashed shuttle. We don't know enough about how the systems were (hypothetically) designed to tell why the thing didn't just stop fusing, since I personally think the fuel-delivery system should have been set up to stop operating if the coolant system stopped. THAT can be blamed on a poor understanding on the part of the writers of how nuclear systems are designed, and partly blamed on the "yet another threat" syndrome. Ripley's actions were Not out of character; she knew she might be killed but she HAD to go in to get Newt. She did exactly what was necessary to keep the bugs away from her, strafing or flaming any place where she suspected they might be hiding. >>WHAT DO YOU WANT THE PLOT TO BE, A BLIPPING ROMANCE? > >I was making a distinction between the story aspect of the movie >and the adventure aspect. A lot of critics have compared _Aliens_ >to a rollercoaster ride. I think that aspect is too prominent in >the film, and led the film makers and script writers into some >stupid plot maneuvers. Then why didn't you say that the first time? I agree that there were some REALLY stupid things happening, but not one of them was unbelievable. If you want to hear about even stupider things, read mod.risks for a few days, or look at an account of the attempted rescue of the Iranian Embassy hostages. Real life people are tremendously stupid. We are spoiled, in a movie, by having a limited sense of omniscience. We KNOW that there will be aliens all over the place, we KNOW the Colonial Marines should leave a backup on the ship. But THEY don't because in their experience they haven't ever run into anything they couldn't handle. >My objection is that the suspense/adventure part of the film could >have been done a lot more cleverly - I'm sick of stories where the >suspense arises out of the stupidity of the characters. I agree. I think that in Aliens, the suspense is already there, and is ENHANCED by the stupidity of the characters. We know that even if they are smart and careful, they'll end up in deep sh*t. And then, frustration, that IDIOT Lieutenant BOTCHES his command. >Why does the commander always have to be an idiot? Portraying the >military as "dumb" has become de facto since Vietnam. I'm tired of >it. It is an easy out for script writers that adds nothing to the >movie. This particular commander is an idiot because he is a green lieutenant. It is SO RARE to find a lieutenant who ISN'T green (and arrogant, and convinced that he's right) that when they DO find one, they make her a Captain REAL FAST. >Question: Would _Aliens_ have been a better movie if the commander >and the marines had been top-notch, made no mistakes and still been >nearly killed by the Aliens (led by a hideously intelligent Queen)? Not necessarily. It might have made a good D&D game that way though. Seriously, the audience identification for fallible people is better than for the invulnerable Ubermensch. A squad of Rambos and Commandos might not have all died, but then where would they get the alien-tongue repellent (analogue of bullet-repellent)? >>NO armor would have worked. The only substance we've seen which >>isn't dissolved by alien-blood is alien-hide. > >Yawn. Is this the joke about the universal solvent again? And how >about the specimen jars in the lab? And you jibe me for being >science ignorant. I don't believe in molecular acid. However, in the movie, they have the baby facehuggers floating in some clear liquid. Probably, since they know the aliens can do this acid stuff, the liquid is a "molecular alkaline" or some such crap. However, I advise that if you ever find a bottle of hydrofluoric acid, that you keep it in the proper container. For some reason your article got cut off at this point. I plan to move any further variations on this discussion to mail rather than inflicting them on the net. See you in the movies. Hutch ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Aug 86 0759-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #239 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 7 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 239 Today's Topics: Films - Bladerunner, Television - Star Trek (2 msgs) & Old SF Programs, Miscellaneous - Time Travel & Black Holes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Aug 86 01:58:20 GMT From: ubc-cs!andrews@caip.rutgers.edu (Jamie Andrews) Subject: Re: Blade Runner / DADOES [FYI: DADOES = _Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep_] chabot@3d.dec.com writes: >But even more than that, I was immensely disappointed in the plot, >having been a fan of Dick for years. Perhaps I should not have >prep'ed so much by reading DADOES, but that was six months before >the release of BR. It was more like Mike Hammer in the 21st >Century than a P K Dick story. bishop@usc-oberon.UUCP (Brian Bishop) writes: > I too am a BIG fan of PKD, but I can deal with the differences.... I can not only deal with the differences, I like the movie much better than the book. The book seems to deal with the "brutal, emotionless, unsympathetic android" stereotype, which may have been great for 1968, but which just doesn't wash for me. In DADOES, the androids definitely are "the bad guys", if there are any. In BR, they are brutal but very, very sympathetic; mortals with a greater sense of their mortality than any human. My views on artificial intelligence make the androids of BR much more realistic than those in DADOES. (I don't ask everyone to think this way...) Bishop then goes on to describe what's "very right" about BR. I agree with him INCREDIBLY about this (especially the blood-and-vodka shot, which is one of my favourite images in ANY movie). DADOES deals with emotion, BR with mortality; neither theme is very original, but somehow the movie treats its theme infinitely better and more originally than does the book from which it was made. And I, too, was amazed at how much great stuff Scott (or whoever) put into the movie; e.g. Roy's death scene, which in the book is just the blowing-away of a rather pompous, nasty baddie. LONG LIVE _BLADE RUNNER_! In fact, I find that (in general) I like SF movies a lot better than I like SF books. I generally find SF books to be bad writing based on fairly neat ideas, and that's all. Even "classic" SF has this effect on me (all the Heinlein I've ever read, and McCaffrey's Pern books are good examples; _Neuromancer_ is a notable exception). Dick's style is better than most, but he had some writing habits that annoy me. Why SF movies are so much better is puzzling. Perhaps the visual aspects of SF attract great movie-makers more than its literary aspects attract great writers. Jamie. ...!ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!ubc-cs!andrews ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 86 16:43:05 GMT From: MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET Subject: Re: Philosophical issues in ST II and III caf@omen.UUCP (Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX) says: >The Enterprise has been damaged in a number of episodes... We didn't really *see* it. The characters fall out of their chairs, sparks flash, and a recorded background voice says the gravity's down to 0.8. ST II was the first time we really *saw* the Enterprise being torn up-- phasers hacking apart the hull & everything. It drove home the point more strongly than ever before. >...and important characters have been killed before. > >Star Trek has a real "problem" with death. It is an acceptable way >of disposing of some of Kirk's lovers, but anyone worth his weight >in energy can be recreated in a transporter, as was done in one of >the novels. Agreed, but that's a fault of a weekly series, when the starring actors have contracts. It didn't apply to the movies. (At least not ST II. Like I said, ST III weaseled out on the mortality theme by bringing back Spock.) >Recall, I said "interesting" philosophical issues. I don't see why "interesting" has to mean "new." The classical Greek plays are still considered "interesting" by many people, even though they're a few thousand years old and raise some rather common philosophical/moral issues. If you mean *new* issues, then say so. Speaking of Greek plays, there's another interesting aspect of ST II-- Khan fit the part of a tragic figure. Athough a potentially great man, he was destroyed by ambition and his lust for revenge. James D. Maloy The Pennsylvania State University Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL UUCP : :akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4:!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 86 09:43 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Star Trek (long) Cc: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU>, Alastair Milne All this discussion on how the Big E should really have blown up reminds me of a fascinating (and very bitter) argument that occured after STII in a ST Letterzine (Interstat). One fan insisted that the movie was ruined by many flaws, and ended up focusing on the radiation barrier behind which Spock died. She maintained that it was impossible for a radiation shield to be transparent (My theory was that it wasn't transparent, but that it had visible light receptors and transmitters on each side.) and a vicious argument ensued. In other words, I can nit pick with the best of them, but I couldn't care less if the Big E's destruction looked right or not. My problem is that it was a lousy solution to the problem. I sat down with some fans and we came up with about a dozen other ways the situation could have been handled. But the script called for the Enterprises's destruction. That was that. As to different views of ST (characters, Enterprise, philosophy), things are getting confused by the many different kinds of fans. So, let me give you my categories: Trek fans -- largest group, they watch the show and like it, but don't think much about it or see much in it. They're the ones who see the show as "Beam me up, Scotty" and pointed ears. Trekkies -- wildly devoted fanatics, second largest group. They buy the ST novels, attend conventions. They're most likely to focus on the characters, usually just one. ie, a Kirk Trekkie can't imagine a ST without Kirk, or a Spockie without Spock, etc. Trekkers -- smallest group. They run the clubs, write for fanzines, think about the philosophy of the show. They're focusing on some gestalt ST, philosophy, if you will. They're more likely to read SF, too, and so, I was assuming that most of the people writing to SFLovers on ST would be in this category, hence my surprise at the letters published, in spite of the other appeals of the show pointed out by Alastair and Frank (please call me "Lisa" -- This "Ms. Wahl" stuff seems quite inappropriate in the ST family.) I think that ST had some fine writers, and the success of a new series is dependent on the ability to get more of their like. Sadly, one of ST's best writers, Gene Coon, died some time ago, but others, such as DC Fontana, are still available. And there are many good writers who are ST fans, and ST fans who are good writers. I believe the talent is out there, if only the producers will seek it out. Tastes change and trends change. I believe that there are ST episodes comparable to MASH episodes, because I first watched ST in the era in which they were made, as I did MASH. (Sure, SF should weather the test of time better, but that's a tall order. Name me a futuristic tv show, episode or movie made around ST's time that still looks futuristic now!), ST was sometimes rather heavy-handed in its commentary, as MASH rarely was -- but look at the times! You had to be heavy handed then -- people weren't prepared for subtlety. Add to list of commentary episodes, my favorite "A Private Little War" about Vietnam. Also "Miri" about the generation gap. "A Taste of Armegeddon" about man's ability or inablity to overcome his instinct for war. From what I've heard, both Kirstie and her agent were at fault in overestimating what money she could demand. A friend of mine started the first Kirstie Alley fan club, and from reports from her, both Kirstie and her agent aren't terribly reasonble people. I remember hearing about Saavik being a half-Romulan long before STII came out. But then, I remember hearing enough about Deltans so that Illia's "my oath of celebacy is on record" line didn't seem like the non sequitur remark the TMP made it. I think I remember seeing a trailer that mentioned her Romulan half. In any case, I'd say her half-Vulcan half-Romulan heritage is an established piece of ST lore, even if it never got mentioned in a movie. "ST:The Early Years" sounds like an absolutely marvelous new series! I wish someone would talk the studios into it. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 86 18:21:25 cdt From: ops@ncsc.ARPA (Tharp) Subject: SF-TV programs Here are a few science fiction television programs I remember from my childhood in the sixties. I am not reviewing or recommending any of these programs, just recalling them from the memory of a child who yearned to "go out there and do neat stuff." LOST IN SPACE - or as my father called it "Space Family Robinson". This was one of my favorite shows when I was growing up, in the mid-sixties. The first family of colonists blasted off into space, amidst much hullabaloo (a sixties word and TV show, for all you trivia fans). There was the handsome scientist father Robinson (played if I am not mistaken by the actor who portrayed Zorro in the TV series -- Guy Madison), the competent domestic scientist mother Robinson (June Lockhart, Timmy's mother on Lassie), the typical Gidget-clone teenage girl Robinson (a bland blonde), the love interest, a junior scientist named Don, (the actor playing him is a bad guy on some current daytime soap), the pre- adolescent spunky younger sister Robinson (Angela Cartwright, of Make Room for Daddy), and the obligatory whiz kid Robinson (some non- discript child actor ). Of course there was the robot, Robbie, and a shaggy dog of some sort. The bad guy was a scientist who got trapped on the Robinson's flying saucer (really) while trying to sabotage it and caused it to change course and send the courageous Robinsons across the universe and into endless adventure. The first time I ever saw Michael J. Pollard was on "Lost in Space" in an episode that had Angela confronting, in a typically confusing sixties TV way, her emerging sexuality. MY FAVORITE MARTIAN - who can ever forget Bill Bixby as the bumbling reporter and Ray Walston as his "Uncle Martin", the Martian stranded on earth, trying to use Earth's primitive technology to get back to Mars while at the same time trying to keep his young earthling friend out of trouble, avoid the love-struck landlady, and remain undiscovered by the authorities. Uncle Martian had antennae and zapped things with his finger. THE LAND OF THE GIANTS - a group of commuters on a 21st century shuttle get caught in some sort of warp and end up on a planet of giant humans (or maybe they get shrunk...this was never made clear). Anyway, life on this planet is suspiciously like 1960's America, except for the Facist government in power. There is a fat bad guy (played by Kurt Kazner), the intrepid captain, a co-pilot, an elder statesman/scientist type, a beautiful, semi-intellegent girl, and the gee-whiz-kid. THE TIME TUNNEL - two guys zapping through time doing stuff. THE WILD, WILD WEST - well, maybe not really science fiction but they had a lot of neat gadgets. VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA - I can't remember the names of any of the stars, or any of the stories, but I know my sister watched this religiously. US Navy nuclear submarine zapping around the world doing stuff underwater. THE VISITORS - this one was great! David Jansen getting chased all over America again (remember The Fugitive?) as a reporter who has discovered that aliens have invaded Earth and are replacing humans (sort of a 30 minute _Invasion_of_the_Body_Snatchers_). THE LAND OF THE LOST - my personal favorite, a Saturday morning live- action kid's show. I watched it at first because Wesley Eure (an actor on the daytime soap opera The Days Of Our Lives) was the star. Then, in reruns, I forced my children to watch it every Saturday morning and now years later we still watch the reruns together. A father, son, and daughter get trapped in a pre-historic parallel Earth, complete with dinosaurs, the missing link, and the remnants of a once great reptilian civilization. Jessie Tharp ops@ncsc ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 86 07:00:35 GMT From: mcvax!lambert@caip.rutgers.edu (Lambert Meertens) Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment jbuck@epimass.UUCP (Joe Buck) writes: > Why would it be a contradiction? Causal loops are certainly > strange, but they can be drawn on a Minkowski space-time diagram > easily enough. I can imagine something like a flat space with one temporal coordinate t and (for simplicity) a spatial coordinate x, in which two parallel slits are made at t=t0 and t=t1, t0 < t1, for x in (0,1) say, and then the early cut side of the later slit is pasted to the late cut side of the earlier slit: x ^ | o o | |has come out there what will enter here | | |ere has come out there what will enter h| | |er here has come out there what will ent| | | enter here has come out there what will| | o o | ------------------------------------------------------> t Now, I find this picture unsatisfactory. It can be somewhat improved by also pasting the two remaining loose cut sides together. But at the end points of the slits, we keep some kind of singularity. One might consider, instead, some kind of continuous tubular "handle" or "ear" coming, so to speak, out of the plane and folding back on it. The manifold you get then must be curved. I have been trying to figure out, with no success, what the consequences are if you assume that general relativity holds in a universe with such a topology. The idea is that the stuff is locally (almost) Euclidean if sufficiently removed from the handle. Also, the handle itself is short compared to the temporal distance it spans. Another way to say this is that we cut out two disks and identify the edges in some locally smooth manner. Question. Is there someone out there who is able to see if this can be made to make sense in the framework of General Relativity? If so, what phenomena would be observed by experimenters who are bold enough to venture in the vicinity of the non-Euclidean part of their universe? What happens to the solution of the usual (locally hyperbolic) wave equations? This last question purports to model causal loops and their concomitant temporal paradoxes. Lambert Meertens, CWI, Amsterdam; lambert@mcvax.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 86 22:36:45 GMT From: usc-oberon!bishop@caip.rutgers.edu (Brian Bishop) Subject: Re: The Doomsday Effect: A baaaaaaaad book from Baen RE: the discussion about black holes expelling mass - I wrote a paper on the topic two years ago. As I recall, it was Hawking's idea, and I believe it has been verified, or at least fairly well accepted. It happens when two particles (matter and antimatter) are produced near the event horizon of a black hole; the antimatter gets sucked in (and goes poof!), and the matter escapes - a net generation of a particle (or energy) from the viewpoint of us observers. Needless to say, the pairs need to be produced in just the right configuration for this to happen, but you know uncertainty (or at least, I thought I did, now I'm not sure...) brian bishop bishop@usc-ecl bishop@usc-oberon (uscvax,sdcvdef,engvax,scgvaxd,smeagol)!usc-oberon!bishop ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Aug 86 0906-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #240 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 11 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 240 Today's Topics: Films - Howard the Duck & Silent Running, Television - Star Trek (2 msgs) & SF TV & The Flight of the Dragons, Miscellaneous - SF Erotica & Time Travel & Footfall ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1986 09:41 CST From: John Bertram Geis(Syzygy Darklock) Subject: HOWARD The DUCK! Last Night I went downtown to see another movie, as I do every tuesday (Oh, how I love those $2.50 Tuesdays). This week, the movie to see was... HOWARD The DUCK! What's that you say?? Get out of here with a stupid kiddie movie that was originally a comic book! But, you're wrong on several points. First, HOWARD The DUCK is not a kiddie movie, and the original mid-70's comic books that first brought Howard to fame and fortune were DEFINITELY not meant to be read by children (how many ducks do you know that sleep around with a human girlfriend??). For those of you who have not seen the movie, I highly recommend that you do so. If you weren't planning on going, change your mind and get down to the nearest theatre! This show is incredibly funny, with fast-paced action and some of the neatest light shows I've seen on the screen in a while. For those of you who wish to go only to shows with some heavy SF concepts, this show can also supply some interest. I will not be too detailed, as I have no wish to spoil the movie for anybody, but the general idea is that Howard is yanked out of his own living by a space warp and is hurled through space to the planet Earth, where he is confronted with hairless apes that do not believe that he's really a duck. Go see it, even if for no other reason than to see a guest shot by the Monolith during Howard's voyage to Earth. John Bertram Geis <GEISJBJ@UREGINA1> ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 86 20:38:30 GMT From: bambi!steve@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Miller) Subject: Re: Silent Running movie song (where the title comes from) > By the way, the songs from the movie are "Rejoice in the Sun" and > "Running Silent", there was no song "Silent Running" in the movie. The title is actually a submariner's term. It refers to movement underwater with the engines shut down; coasting. This was and still is a very effective anti-detection scheme. In the film, Dern uses a similar technique, though it is to provide an excuse to collide with Saturn's rings; he's hoping to be given up for lost with this maneuver. Sort of a silly title, really. After all, "In space, no one can hear [your engines]." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 86 09:02 CDT From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: Saavik I thought I was the only one who liked Kirstie Allie better. All my friends who have an opinion in the matter think the opposite. It's nice to know I'm not the only one. In regards to a new Star Trek, I would like to see new actors playing new characters. Maybe a story here and there about Kirk's early days, or Captain Pike's days as captain. But let's not get trapped into having 500 episodes with the same characters. And frankly, I'd like to see some civilian shows. Let's see some of the Federation from the inside, not the outside. Just my opinion, humble. Brett (Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Aug 86 20:17:10 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> To: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.edu> Subject: Re: Star Trek new characters >Certainly the mainstream population equates Star Trek with "Beam me >up, Scotty" and such, but to Star Trek fans, it is much more than >the characters. Ms. Wahl's point seems to be that the opposite appears true of many fans. From the remarks I've read about the films, I see what she means. Most of the postings seem to show more interest in specific, long-established characters than in the world of which they're part. I gather your preferences are more like hers, and, as far as I have an opinion on the matter at all, I agree. Besides, film makers and TV producers have to count on a larger audience than just ST fans to make continued production financially feasible. >They destroyed the ship with the self-destruct mechanism. This >would not involve the antimatter in the warp generators because in >desperate situations the engines might not be available. Given >time, they could have rigged a "logical" destruct. They wouldn't >design the ship to be easily destroyed, but the option *is* >available (and starship captains love to bluff...). What I meant is that the self-destruct mechanism should have used antimatter. I should think the simplest, fastest, and most foolproof method of utterly obliterating the ship would be to turn off power to the magnetic bottles holding the antimatter stream, and let it touch matter. That should work no matter what the damage to the warp generators (in fact, preventing it seems the hard part). Of course, you still want alternate ways, in case, for instance, the antimatter devices are gone altogether. I imagine the password system was the part intended to foil easy destruction, and after that, you'd want the job done as quickly as possible (or the enemy might be able to prevent it). However, I don't ask for overmuch actual logic, and certainly not of designers who would arrange that losing the engines would cause phasers to be cut off (ST I, Decker's explanation following worm-hole). Logic on Star Trek is too often not much more than a subject for discussion. >. . .Star Trek can continue in the same way that MASH did, but not >with MASH's writers. What Star Trek needs is Star Trek's original >writers and producers, etc. Included were science fiction writers, >. . . Fine writing was the rule, not the exception. I'm sorry, but compared to what was on M*A*S*H, I have never seen fine writing on Star Trek. The closest I can recall is Harlan Ellison's episode "City on the Edge of Forever". M*A*S*H was constantly dry, quick-witted, believable, with great impact: human, even sentimental, without being slow or drippy. I can't recall a single episode of Star Trek which I could praise similarly. BTW, I didn't actually mean that ST should grab M*A*S*H's writers; merely that it could do with a large infusion of the writing skill that went into M*A*S*H. I think you'll find that if and when that happens, more people than just devoted Star Trek fans will take a real interest in continuing the stories. And that would be good for all of us. >One factor is that the ideas in Star Trek were positive responses >to the problems of the 60's. It is necessary for ST to maintain >the old tradition, while responding to new problems. The fact that >what ST represents is no longer fashionable is not the fault of >Star Trek. I wouldn't argue if you said that right now Star Trek >is being run into the ground. It seems ironic that a series ostensibly about the future should be bogged in the past. I find it hard not to fault the creators if they can't be more imaginative than that ("our 23rd century sets look really modern now: this is the 1980's!"). But I'm not at all sure I agree. Apart from a few theme shows ("Let That be your Last Battlefield", "The Way to Eden" (right title?) ), I saw no particular social significance. What problems of the 60's were considered in "the Menagerie", "Catspaw", "the Corbomite Manoeuvre", or "Conscience of the King", to name a few? And "the Squire of Gothos", "Plato's Stepchildren", and "Who Mourns for Adonis" were actually rather silly. Not that I'm complaining -- I think social significance in entertainment should be given in careful doses, unless you really know what you're doing -- but I don't think ST at present can really claim it as a hindrance. >Don't be so sure that Allie's agent is at "fault". If she wanted >to maintain her role as Saavik, she could have done so. She simply >decided to do other things. And how did you find out that Saavik >is half-Romulan? It isn't mentioned in either of the movies... >...although it's "true". (correct me if I'm wrong) My understanding is that for STIII, Allie's agent grossly overestimated how much he could from the studio's for her -- much more than the regulars were getting, so much that the studio didn't even bother negotiating. They simply turned down the request and went elsewhere. If so, the agent blew it for her, for the studio, and for us. It sounds not unlikely to me, but I have not seen it confirmed in print. I'm not sure where I first heard about her Romulan side. McIntyre expounded on it in her novelisation of ST II, making it clear that it gave Saavik a different set of problems from Spock's, and perhaps more difficult. Or I might have heard it from a friend (who probably read it in McIntyre). Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 86 05:32:53 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Dr. Phibes From: Cthulhu <AD0R@tb.cc.cmu.edu> >There are two movies that I've seen that I *really* liked, but not >a lot of people seem to have ever heard of. One was called >Spectre, and stared Robert Culp. I heard a rumor once that it was >a tv pilot. After STAR TREK died Gene Roddenbury tried to do pilots for three or four different series, but none of them sold. He tried to create this supernatural series that would star Robert Culp and Gig Young. It was pretty decent, though the special effects looked very STAR TREKy. John Hurt was sort of a guest star. >The second is called Equinox, and seemed to have a *lot* of >Lovecraftiness to it, even though it tried to stay within the >normal devil/demon world. This was an amateur film expanded into a feature. It seems to me Jim Danforth did a number of the animation effects with varying degrees of quality. The old professor is played by Fritz Leiber who has been known for writing a fantasy story or two. (Leiber's father was the real actor in the family. He played Liszt in the Claude Rains PHANTOM OF THE OPERA, he was also in the Laughton HUNCHBACK OF NOTRE DAME.) 1971. >There was also a movie called Dr. Strange, or something like that, >that I found to bear quite a resemblance to Lovecraft's Hypnos. >Anyone else? Another interesting TV pilot, based (not too closely) on the comic of the same name. It was a well above the average TV fantasy fare. John Mills plays Strange's Master/Teacher. 1978 Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) Subject: The Flight of Dragons Date: 6 Aug 86 21:53:46 GMT I recently saw a fantasy film on network TV, titled "The Flight of Dragons". TV Guide says that the film was based on a novel by Peter Dickinson (which is also the name of the main character), but the closing credits listed a story by Gordon Dickson, which I believe was called "The Dragon and St. George". I would tend to believe that TV Guide screwed up, but I was not watching the credits that closely, so perhaps I misread them. Does anyone know either the true basis for this movie, or anything about where the story by Gordon Dickson was published? Brian Yamauchi Carnegie-Mellon University Computer Science Department ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu BITNET: q110by04@cmccvc DECNET: by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 86 14:01:30 EDT From: Michael Laufer <mlaufer@cct.bbn.com> Subject: SF Erotica From: Marty Walsh <MJWCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> > Back in June I posted a request for erotic SF favorites. I >have begun compiling the list that hopefully more people will add >to as time goes by. (Hint hint hint...) A reasonably good book (if a bit tongue in cheek) is _Harlot's_Ruse_ by Esther M. Friesner. It is has Gods, Wizards, Princes, magic and more. The protagonist practices the oldest profession and is supposed to the the BEST. There are the GOR books by John Norman. I am not sure if these are supposed to be sf or fantasy or what (good writing they are not). I have read a few and they have erotic, if a bit kinky, parts. Michael Laufer mlaufer@bbn.com (ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 1986 1331-PDT (Wednesday) From: berman@vaxa.isi.edu (Richard Berman) Subject: Time Travel A short while back there was a discussion involving the conservation of matter over time. One person said something about there being a failure to conserve when an object, sent into the past (specifically a block of gold) suddenly appeared and was "unaccounted for". The other fellow made the point that there is no reason why time should be the limiting factor. Indeed, space is a continuum and we have no problem thinking about moving an object through space. Likewise time, so having an object move temporaly is no big deal. But...it still DOES violate conservation. Why? Because when you send the block of gold back, you are not replacing the gold that was ALREADY THERE from which that gold block was made. For example, take a small gold coin. Send it 1 second into the future. (I assume you've solved the problem of displacing the matter present at the time/place of the coin's appearance). Now you have two coins. A more explicit example would be to send the coin back to a point before it was minted, or before the gold was mined. The gold in the other location would still be there. So, after you've "time-cloned" the growing pile of coins 16 times, you get 65,000+ gold coins. Clearly this violates conservation of mass. I'm not saying it wouldn't work. Perhaps conservation itself is not as absolute as we think... RB ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 86 17:50:32 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: FOOTFALL in the Soviet Union The following incident re FOOTFALL that occurred to us while traveling to the Soviet Union may be of interest (excerpted from my travelogue posted to net.travel): We crossed the border about 4:45 PM. First we cleared Finnish passport control at the last Finnish town (Vainikkala). Then we went a little ways further and the Soviet border control got on. First they collected the passports and visas and checked the compartment for any hidden persons. It was then we discovered that the seats lifted up and there was luggage space under them! Then we crossed the border while they began doing luggage checks. For this, everyone went into the corridor. Then the guard asked Mark to come back in and point out his luggage. He went through Mark's luggage asking about various items. When he got to Mark's copy of FOOTFALL, he looked at it and said, "It is forbidden," and passed it to someone in the corridor. They passed it around, trying to figure out what it was, but had trouble knowing what to make of it. (Let's face it, most Americans wouldn't know what to make of a novel about elephants from outer space invading Kansas.) They were trying to decide if it was "pornographia." Eventually they decide it wasn't and returned it. What was notable was that their immediate reaction to something unknown was, "It is forbidden"--just like the Orwellian "Everything not required is forbidden." Then I was called in. They went over me with a metal detector, checked my pocket knife (no problem), glanced at my diary, and looked at my books. The Xeroxes of articles on the post-moderns in science fiction also got passed around and returned. They went through one other person's luggage from our compartment, and let the other three pass. None of the guards ever smiled or even ceased scowling. It was an interesting experience but not what I would call a pleasant one. What is interesting is that Pournelle (one presumes it was Pournelle) put some fairly anti-Soviet passages into FOOTFALL; we were just lucky that the guards did hit on those. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Aug 86 0920-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #241 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 11 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 241 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed 6 Aug 86 00:58:53-CDT From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: unjustified aliens complaints srt@locus recently wrote that his objections were not satisfied by any of the replies. I disagree... Deep sleep -- he says there is "no indication" that the ships had hyperspace capability (& I assume Scott means any other FTL capability, by whatever means) But there is -- it was stated that a rescue mission would get there in 17 days if they didn't return soon! How could that be without FTL travel? Mumblety-Peg -- Why has everyone assumed Bishop was programmed to follow Asimov's 3 Laws? I am baffled why everyone has seemed to accept this as given. First, he just gave a loose paraphrase of the "don't hurt humans" law. Second, even if the androids were officially programmed to follow them, clearly the programming didn't always work -- witness Ash in Alien! It's my opinion that any program sufficiently complex to simulate human thought will be quite difficult to have an arbitrary absolute "never hurt humans" rule slapped onto it. Weapons fired in nuclear converter -- Jeez, she's under a ridiculous amount of stress and clearly hyped up. I think it would be much LESS realistic if in this scene (& others) the characters acted as calm and rational as you seem to think they should have. Hovering out of sight of platform -- Perhaps hovering next to it would blow the platform down too, if there are horizontal stabilizing jets. In fairness, I agree I thought this scene seemed a cheap shot at suspense. Dream sequence -- seemed quite good to me (& evidently other folks in the theater.) The rest of the complaints, about implausibilities specifically introduced to supply action and plot twists, are probably justified -- but I can't think of any action movie (and very few nonaction movies) that don't have some implausibilities and coincidences to advance the plot. Even real life has 'em. There were only 3 things that irked me when I left the theater: "Get away from her, you bitch!" seemed a pretty forced and trite line. "Not bad... for a human..." spoken as misguided comic relief. And the damn "Gobot" appearance of the power loader! It was pretty ridiculous looking to me -- like one of those animated movies that's a long ad for Japanese robots. Luckily the fight seemed well enough done that I soon got into it, but when she first appeared from behind the door, I couldn't help but think derisive thoughts about Japanese transformer robots... Russ ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 86 02:05:48 GMT From: sphinx.UChicago!see1@caip.rutgers.edu (Ellen Seebacher) Subject: Re: Oooh, A Fight! A Fight! (And more _ALIENS_) srt@CS.UCLA.EDU (Scott Turner) writes: >And had you been there, spraying gunfire, the tower would have gone >up before you'd gotten anywhere near Newt. I don't object to >Ripley using gunfire as a last resort, but she went in intending to >shoot the place up, which is both dumb and out of character. Quite right. Gunfire was a *last* resort. She did not go in intending to "shoot the place up." What she did was try and make sure that she and Newt would be able to get out. She did shoot two aliens after rescuing Newt. The real shootout did not happen until later after the queen betrayed her trust. "When was that?" I hear you ask. There was a beautifully filmed scene between Ripley and the Queen where Ripley convinced the Queen to let her go or she would get hurt "real bad." Ripley accomplished this by firing a blast from her flamethrower to the side after she was flanked by two aliens acting as guards. After witnessing Ripley's firepower (no pun intended) she acquiesced and after inclining her head, the two guards withdrew to permit Ripley's exit (although they did not look very happy about this turn). Ripley did not get this far by being stupid, so she backs out slowly. She is almost free when an egg by her feet opens, thus betraying the Queen's trust and allowing Sigourney's true acting ability to come forward. With a beautifully executed facial you-double-crossing-bitch, Ripley cracks under the strain and allows anger and fear to break loose. Ripley would have been quite happy to leave without a showdown. After all the Queen was going to buy the farm along with the rest of the processor. But even Ripley is human and she cracks. Thus begins the shootout which, at that point, can't accelerate the reaction any more. This was one of my favorite scenes in the movie and I am sorry to see that so many people totally missed the point of that scene (and it was done so well). Not too surprising, I guess, when you consider that it just might have been too subtle for the more action-oriented viewers. Joshua ("Twosome") Koppel (guest on this account) Ellen Keyne Seebacher Univ. of Chicago Comp Ctr. ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!see1 ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 86 05:11:44 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: re: Mark Leeper's review of ALIENS >From: mtgzz!leeper (Mark R. Leeper) >> ...In specific, the creature in the first film was invulnerable >> to flame throwers, I think. It seems to me that the new >> creatures of the same species are not.... > >I'm not sure that this is the case. I partially agree with your >point. When I came out of the film, it *seemed* to me that these >Aliens were much too easy to kill, but that's just a superficial >impression. It has become a common comment. I don't remember how good a shot the humans got in the first film, but I thought they flamed it. It is certainly true that the marines were trained fighters and much better equipped, it is hard to believe that an alien would seem so totally impervious in the first film and even with the difference in conditions, so much less so in the second. >> Another problem is the introduction of "soft characters." >> The film introduces a child character. It is a serious mistake >> because scriptwriters are bound by certain unwritten rules akin >> to chivalry about what can and cannot befall weak and sympathetic >> characters like children.... > >That depends on the director. Recall that Bruce's second victim in >JAWS was a young boy. Alex Kintner was an obnoxious brat. He was hardly developed as a sympathetic character. That goes for any of the kids in ALLIGATOR or even in MAD MAX BEYOND THUNDERDOME. In ALIENS they develop Newt in a much more sympathetic way. There wasn't a doubt in my mind that Newt would survive. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 86 17:36:20 GMT From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*) A pretty hot discussion on a hot movie. The last movie I enjoyed this much was Return_to_Oz. Now for once everyone seems to agree with my choice! :-) fitz@ukecc.UUCP (Catherine Ariel Wolffe) writes: >>Hicks is alone the with Bishop the whole time that Ripley is >>Rambo-izing the nest. Also, Bishop goes as far as giving Hicks a >>knock-out shot. Hicks might not even know he was impregnated >>(raped?). > > In _Alien_, it was a considerable amount of time before the >face-hugger crawled off Kane and died. The time it took for Ripley >to find Newt after leaving the drop ship is comparable to the time >it took for Dallas and Lambert to drag Kane to the Nostromo. And a >Kane was killed less than one hour after the face-hugger crawled >away. Ugh, I just thought of something. The face-hugger that took Kane had never met a human before. The queen, having presumably erupted from a human, could be laying face-huggers/analyzers adapted to humans. One would guess that they would not have to go through the analyzation process, just plug in an already adapted embryo. This wouldn't take as long. In any case, if I was Ripley, I'd scan everyone just on general principles. And why didn't she nuke the original space ship??? Perhaps because she thought the colonial government would move in and wipe them out, now that she's exposed the Company's coverup? If there is another sequel, I would expect a full scale intersteller war. Perhaps we'll finally get to see Heinlein's Starship Troopers on the big screen. Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 86 07:25:57 GMT From: richl@penguin.uss.tek.com (Rick Lindsley) Subject: Re: *ALIENS* (Spoilers) srt@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU (Scott Turner) writes: >* In order to get Bishop out of the action and build suspense, we >make him pilot the ship down on remote from near the antenna. >First of all, we could build a ship today that could land near a >beacon on automatic. Second, if we can build an android >indistinguishable from a human, wouldn't we put at least an AI >personality on board the orbital ship? Third, why does Bishop have >to pilot using a keyboard and joystick? He doesn't have a remote >plug or radio link built in? I've got a theory on this that nobody else has yet put forth. Maybe no one was ever *supposed* to be able to summon the drop ship in that fashion, and that's why it seems so convuluted and jury rigged. Maybe it just occurred to Bishop that it was possible to do so, but didn't have the time to explain what needed to be done to somebody else. I mean, if *he* could do it, in a battle situation why couldn't the enemy? Nobody in the attack ship to override that command ... and the Marines are all busy right now so they don't notice ... hmmm. No, I don't put a *whole* lot of faith in this theory, but it *is* something to consider. Rick ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 86 23:59:08 GMT From: voder!kevin@caip.rutgers.edu (The Last Bugfighter) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU writes: >Deep sleep -- he says there is "no indication" that the ships had >hyperspace capability (& I assume Scott means any other FTL >capability, by whatever means) But there is -- it was stated that a >rescue mission would get there in 17 days if they didn't return >soon! How could that be without FTL travel? There could have been another ship, station or planet near enough to have performed a rescue mission but which didn't have the military facilities to send the marines in the first place. Besides, the company wanted Ripley along for the ride and since she was on Earth, and rather than take military personel from an outpost that perhaps couldn't spare them, the mission was sent from Earth. I think we can assume that this world is not the only planet in this system and that there may have been other more desirable planets that were inhabited first. My impression is that FTL travel is not possible in the world of 'Alien', I felt that this 'realism' made the story more interesting. Star Trek and Star Wars aside, I don't realy expect us to have FTL capabilities for a long, long time. If it's even possible at all. >Mumblety-Peg -- Why has everyone assumed Bishop was programmed to >follow Asimov's 3 Laws? I am baffled why everyone has seemed to >accept this as given. First, he just gave a loose paraphrase of >the "don't hurt humans" law. Second, even if the androids were >officially programmed to follow them, clearly the programming >didn't always work -- witness Ash in Alien! It's my opinion that >any program sufficiently complex to simulate human thought will be >quite difficult to have an arbitrary absolute "never hurt humans" >rule slapped onto it. I agree with the comment about Asimov's Three Laws Of Robotics, just because the android had somewhat simular programming does not mean it was the Three Laws. Particularly if this universe is just a futuristic extension of our own, in which case the Three Laws are just from a science fiction novel. As for Ash, he had a second set of orders that he was supposed to preserve anything they found that could be utilized for weapons research, this was at the expense of the entire crew. These orders Ash was carrying out but when he began to suffocate Ripley it does seem as if he's having problems, perhaps he also had a 'no harm to humans' directive in his main programming which his 'at expense of crew' orders were interfering with. >Weapons fired in nuclear converter -- Jeez, she's under a >ridiculous amount of stress and clearly hyped up. I think it would >be much LESS realistic if in this scene (& others) the characters >acted as calm and rational as you seem to think they should have. When the marines first enter the structure it is kind of stupid to be firing all these weapons. Since they've seen the damage to the station, have Ripley's account of the Nostromo, and have rescued the little girl you would think that they'd have some sort of an idea of what they're up against. Discovering that all the colonists were in one area you'd think they would send some sort of drone in to asses the situation, rather than march in with weapons they can't use without damaging a critical component. They can't even try something like poison gas because they don't know if the colonists are still alive. When Ripley starts shooting things up, however, the damage has already been done and they're going to nuke the place anyway so what difference did it make? She was going to rescue Newt no matter what! >Dream sequence -- seemed quite good to me (& evidently other folks >in the theater.) At first I thought she was beginning to remember all that had happened after just waking up and was going into shock. Then when the alien popped out I thought to myself, 'Wait a minute!', and then we realize it was just a dream. I feel this sequence sets up the fact that these dreams are a recuring nightmare to Ripley. > And the damn "Gobot" appearance of the power loader! It was >pretty ridiculous looking to me -- like one of those animated >movies that's a long ad for Japanese robots. Luckily the fight >seemed well enough done that I I'm rather a fan of Robotech and I never connected the power loader with a Transformer type robot. I felt the power loader was one of the most interesting future-tech 'throwaways' in the film (of course we don't know how important the power loader will be until the very end of the film). There really doesn't seem to be any technology in the power loader we couldn't utilize by the end of this century (14 years, people!) with the exception of the onboard power supply. Kevin Thompson {ucbvax,pyramid,nsc}!voder!kevin ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 86 16:18:42 GMT From: peora!joel@caip.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: ALIENS (intelligence of aliens) There has been a lot of discussion about how intelligent the aliens are, since some of the things they do appear to be too complex to be covered by instinct. One thing that has bothered me is that even if the aliens are intelligent, where do they get the training to realize those facilities. Without some sort of knowledge base to work from that intelligence would not be visible. Like the baby raised by wolves story. One theory concerning the aliens is that they are actually bio-warfare constructs that got loose. In that case knowledge might be 'programmed in' so to speak. I just thought of another hypothesis. Maybe the aliens are able to absorb RNA from their hosts. That was an alien might incorporate some of the knowledge and skills of their host, although it might take some time to put this information into some usable order. This approach would not necessarily be exclusive of the constuct theory, since the ability to absorb and use host RNA, could have been designed in also. Joel Upchurch @ CONCURRENT Computer Corporation Southern Development Center 2486 Sand Lake Road/ Orlando, Florida 32809/ (305)850-1031 {decvax!ucf-cs, ihnp4!pesnta, vax135!petsd, akgua!codas}!peora!joel ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Aug 86 0938-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #242 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 11 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 242 Today's Topics: Books - Kaye & Pournelle & Heart of the Comet & Celtic Myths, Television - Star Trek (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Time Travel (3 msgs) & Footfall ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Aug 86 10:01:23 edt From: firth@sei.cmu.edu Subject: erotic sf Penetrators of Time, by Merlin Kaye (Hustler, 1980, ISBN 0-89963-183-5) *** Mild Spoiler Material *** To call this novel "erotic" is a euphemism; it's definitely Combat Zone quality. Moreover, it won't fall open at enticing well-thumbed pages, either: to a first approximation, everybody does everything with everyone else all the time, so there are steamy bits on every page. This is the stuff that Farmer was satirising in Blown. The story is trivial. A young man (Graham) driving home from work meets a young extraterrestrial lady (Kee). They go to her flying saucer and ***. Later, Graham takes a co-worker (Janice) to visit the saucer, and they all ***. Kee then reveals that her saucer can travel also through time (hence the title), and asks the earthlings to help her explore terran history, which they do, meeting interesting people such as Cleopatra and the Minotaur, and ***ing them. As the cover blurb says Two young swingers travel back through time to savor the ages of lust And, as one might expect, the book has silly characters, a ridiculous plot, holes in continuity you could fly the USS Enterprise through: altogether typical of the genre. However, I rather liked the book. For one thing, the author does have a certain wit, and there are some striking bizarre images. For another, the book makes no pretence to be other that porn; there is none of the autobiographical candour, serious purpose, stylistic innovation, and redeeming social and literary merit that make, say, Henry Miller such a crashing bore. Although it was published in California, the book was found in a wire rack outside a small grocery store on the island of Corfu. If you spend some time in lazy places far from our frenetic civilization, be sure to take ENOUGH reading material, including something really beefy like The Wealth of Nations or Der Untergang des Abendlandes, or you too may be reduced to prowling the grocery stores. On that holiday, the thickest books I'd brought along were the first two volumes of The Saga of the Pliocene Exile (you know, the one with the silly characters, ridiculous plot, holes in continuity &c, and a few steamy bits that rouse one to a pitch of squirming embarassment). The other half of the Hustler Double Novel is called The Savage Princess, by Raymond E Banks. A pleasant souvenir of lands gilded with eternal Summer. Robert Firth ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 86 14:44:11 GMT From: rruxr!dawn@caip.rutgers.edu (D L Paschal) Subject: Jerry Pournell's "Janissary" books Has anyone heard if Jerry Pournelle will write another sequel to his "Janissary" series? Thanks, Dave Phillips ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 86 15:51 CDT From: Wilcox@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: HEART of the COMET - A book review I finished Heart Of the Comet by Gregory Benford and David Brin several days ago. Before my impressions fail me, I will relate them: BEWARE OF MILD SPOILERS Earth people have landed on Comet Halley and are attempting to find out any deep dark secrets it may carry. There are several characters in the story, with the main plot being concerned with 3 of those people and a very special AI "being" known as JonVon. HotC is intended to reflect the state of the earth's affairs today..petty politics, desperation and extreme prejudice. The prejudice isn't racial, rather it is ideological in nature. A couple of the characters remind of Switzerland, that is they try to remain neutral in all the squabbling. The text is heavy with wordy ideas and passages, there wasn't enough "REAL" SF to satisfy me. The reader is asked to accept a few outlandish ideas, and that's tough enough in a book that I like. The overall organization is good; chapters are told from the viewpoint of a certain individual, but not in the first person. The book has the proper elements of action, sex and a little SF but it doesn't quite gel properly. Ratings: scale -4 to +4 Heart of the Comet rates a -1.5. That makes it one to read when desperate for a late night sedative..... Craig. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 86 08:34:11 EDT (Thursday) Subject: Re: Celtic myths From: Mary Ann <Foltman.Henr@Xerox.COM> The juvenile books mentioned previously are Susan Cooper's The Dark is Rising series. They include "Over Sea, Under Stone", "The Dark is Rising", "Greenwitch", "The Grey King", and "Silver on the Tree". Of these, "The Grey King", and "Silver on the Tree" deal directly with Celtic and Gaelic myths and folklore. They are very good. Also good is "The Magic Cup", by Andrew Greeley, although he takes liberties with the characters and and events, it is still has a good flavor to it. Mary Ann <Foltman.henr@xerox.com> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Aug 86 11:37:48 -0400 From: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU> To: Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX <omen!caf@caip.rutgers.EDU> Cc: Wahl.ES@xerox.COM Subject: Re: death in Star Trek >Star Trek has a real "problem" with death. It is an acceptable way >of disposing of some of Kirk's lovers, but anyone worth his weight >in energy can be recreated in a transporter, as was done in one of >the novels. ...or their "katra" can be found floating around, and we can grow a new adult body on the Genesis planet, which by the way was made with protomatter, so we can act like it's no longer a problem. No need to use the transporter to get our heroes (who have made the ultimate sacrifice) back. Frank Hollander ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Aug 86 10:07:48 -0400 From: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU> To: Alastair Milne <milne@icse.uci.EDU> Subject: Re: Star Trek >[about the explosion of the Enterprise in STIII] By saying that the engines might not be available, I mean that they might not be *physically* available - ejected or whatnot. Perhaps they should keep a bottle of antimatter on the bridge for self-destruct purposes... I don't see how the enemy is going to stop a lot of small explosions, either. Anyway, I don't think a self-destruct mechanism is the most desirable thing. But I'll let the starship designers worry about that. It's just an exploration ship... >I'm sorry, but compared to what was on M*A*S*H, I have never seen >fine writing on Star Trek. The closest I can recall is Harlan >Ellison's episode "City on the Edge of Forever". M*A*S*H was >constantly dry, quick-witted, believable, with great impact: human, >even sentimental, without being slow or drippy. I can't recall a >single episode of Star Trek which I could praise similarly. Ok, you don't think Star Trek is very good. There are *a lot* of episodes of MASH. If they were constantly so good, and ST never so good, that's a pretty huge difference. >>One factor is that the ideas in Star Trek were positive responses >>to the problems of the 60's. >But I'm not at all sure I agree. Apart from a few theme shows >("Let That be your Last Battlefield", "The Way to Eden" (right >title?) ), I saw no particular social significance. What problems >of the 60's were considered in "the Menagerie", "Catspaw", "the >Corbomite Manoeuvre", or "Conscience of the King", to name a few? >[...] I'm not talking about the "theme shows". By "positive response" I don't mean "direct response". Star Trek is a positive, optimistic series set in a future where morality is not inconsistent with progress and technology. The "Cage" part of "Menagerie" considers the idea that "dying is better than living as slaves". "Corbomite Maneuver" addresses the confrontation between a huge alien power and a mere Federation starship. "Conscience of the King" has justice for old crimes as its main theme. While none of these episodes is a *direct* response to problems of the 60's, they were certainly relevant. They are not irrelevant now, for that matter. If the ST producers of today are not willing to address anything that is significant, Star Trek might continue to be good entertainment, but won't be anything near what the original Star Trek is. >>Don't be so sure that Allie's agent is at "fault". [...] >My understanding is that for STIII, Allie's agent grossly >overestimated how much he could from the studio's for her -- much >more than the regulars were getting, so much that the studio didn't >even bother negotiating. They simply turned down the request and >went elsewhere. If so, the agent blew it for her, for the studio, >and for us. It sounds not unlikely to me, but I have not seen it >confirmed in print. Your facts aren't out of line with what I have heard. However, my interpretation is different. I assume that Allie's agent gave a price for her that was somewhat consistent with what she wanted to get for continuing to do Star Trek. If her agent had "blown it", I think we would have heard that from Allie. That she did not want to become another Sulu or Uhura and was willing to risk her career by not doing STIII is commendable. And from what I know, her career has not suffered. About Saavik being half-Romulan: I have seen a "product reel" for Star Trek II which is the entire movie in miniture - perhaps six minutes long, designed to show to the studio brass (not as a "coming attraction"). It contains two scenes from ST II that were cut. One involves the "involvement" between David and Saavik ("learning by doing"). The other is a scene where Spock explains to Kirk about Saavik's volatile Romulan half. Because this scene was cut, it hasn't been stated in the movies that Saavik is half-Romulan. However, consider that one of her first words of dialogue was "Damn". It's unfortunate that Saavik was not put to better use. I asked about new scenes in ABC's showing of ST II a while back, but no one seemed to think there was anything significant. Anybody remeber anything about Saavik being half-Romulan? Frank Hollander ARPA: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU CSNET: hollande%udel-dewey@csnet-relay UUCP: ...!harvard!hollande@dewey.udel. ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 6 Aug 1986 08:20:40-PDT From: todd%sarah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Invention origins and backward movement in time As soon as one accepts the possibility of any kind of communication (or movement of intelligence) backward in time, a number of, or perhaps innumerable, potential paradoxes arise. Heinlein, of course, has brought up several interesting ones. In particular, the problem of the origin of an invention sent backward in time is treated in detail (though not answered) in The Door Into Summer. Asimov's The End of Eternity also touches on the issue, though perhaps more superficially. Neither affronts 'logic' beyond the initial assumption that backward movement is possible in the first place. Bill ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 86 14:18:00 GMT From: glasgow.glasgow!taylor@caip.rutgers.edu (Jem Taylor) Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes: >mikes@tekecs.UUCP (Michael Sellers) writes: >>As a collateral question (and possibly too speculative for these >>august groups :-), if you were the one capable of sending >>something back, what (or who) would it be? > >A nuclear bomb. Something that would, by "appearing" in that time, >materialize in my grandfather. A computer & manual, destined for >T.A. Edison in Menlo Park, NJ. The plans for "Opertion: Overlord" >to die F^uhrer's office (excuse the attempt at an umlaut) in >Berlin. In general, anything that would cause an identifiable, >unavoidable mistake in time. Great way to verify whether we live >in a "parallel" universe, or a "serial" one (cf. "Thrice Upon a >Time," by (James P.?) Hogan). But, but, but if we do live in a parallel universes (sic), then you wouldn't notice any difference _in_this_parallel_ since this one is the one where the transmission into the past, failed. If there was a difference, it would be in a different parrallel universe, by definition. So 1) Time travel BACKWARDS into THIS PARALLEL doesn't work If the universe isn't parallels (sic again), no-one would notice the change because it would always have been that way. Ursula Le Guin wrote an excellent book - 'The Lathe of Heaven' ? - which treats this problem, in the context of some-one who can dream reality different. When he wakes up, everyone else has already forgotten the 'real' past, and remembered the 'new' past which is consistent with the new present. Our hero almost goes crazy ... So 2) Time travel DOES WORK but NO-ONE EVER NOTICES ... Jem JANET: taylor@uk.ac.glasgow.cs USENET:{ uk }!cs.glasgow.ac.uk!taylor ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 86 16:18:32 GMT From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Time Travel berman@vaxa.isi.edu writes: >For example, take a small gold coin. Send it 1 second into the >future. (I assume you've solved the problem of displacing the >matter present at the time/place of the coin's appearance). Now >you have two coins. If you're sending the coin into the future, the first one (the one you sent) will "cease to exist"--for you, anyway--leaving one coin, tho' it does leave gap in the coin's existence. >A more explicit example would be to send the coin back to a point >before it was minted, or before the gold was mined. The gold in >the other location would still be there. > >So, after you've "time-cloned" the growing pile of coins 16 times, >you get 65,000+ gold coins. Clearly this violates conservation of >mass. This doesn't, to my mind. Say that there is conservation of mass(/energy), not by gram or an energy equivalent, but a conservation of mass _over_time_ --say, a unit called the "gram-second", or whatever. If I were to use a time-line, I could show you: (At time t=20, the coin is sent back 15 seconds, to time t=5.) Coin +----+----+----0----+----1----+---- 2----+----3----+----4----+----5--- etc. Time (our time): 0 5 10 15 20 25 30 35 40 45 (secs) Assuming quantifiable time-units, the thing would only be duplicated for a space of 15 seconds, then the first would "disappear". The error occurs when, "after" you've done this, and have two coins (time t=5 or 10), you refuse to send back the first. There are two resolutions to this that I see: a) The first one gets sent, anyway. The Will of G*d, or some such. b) There are two universes (parallel dimensions caused by the use of the machine) and somewhere, there's a scientist who looks a *lot* like you, wondering where that coin he sent, actually went. ;-) OK, so you're saying: a) "Leave G*d out of this!"; and b) "But where did this other universe come from?" Hey, you can't expect me to come up with ALL the answers! ;-) kaufman@orion.arpa kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ From: alice!td@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Duff) Subject: Tom Duff appears in Footfall Date: 7 Aug 86 16:01:57 GMT Indeed, I appear at the beginning of Footfall, disguised as an employee of the Kitt Peak National Observatory. I purchased an appearance in the book at an auction for the benefit of the LASFS building fund. The winning bid was $40. The scene in which I appeared was later cut from the book during a rewrite, and a short reference inserted. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Aug 86 0949-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #243 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 11 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 243 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Aug 86 19:12:38 GMT From: ptsfd!djo@caip.rutgers.edu (Dan'l Oakes) Subject: Re: LOTR goldberg_4b@h-sc4.UUCP (Randy Goldberg) writes: >I recall in one of his biographies, that JRRT once said that he >wished his books (esp. SILMARILLION) to be like a bible, that other >authors might come to for germs of stories, and expand upon them. >I am truly sorry that we have treted Tolkien's work with an undue >amount of reverence, for none has dared to touch them so. Unfortunately, not so -- on TWO accounts. First, not so: JRRT originally had the idea of "writing a mythology for England," which, apparently having forgotten the entire corpus of Arthurian myth, he thought was lacking. In this early attitude, he began the composition of what he called "THE BOOK OF LOST TALES," the ms. of which has recently seen print in two volumes. As his ideas progressed, however, he became far more intent on keeping creative control of his work (as, I think, it should be), and a reading of the LETTERS of JRRT -- remaindered about a year ago; you should have no trouble finding a copy quite cheap -- will show you that he was quite hostile to persons who tried to glom onto pieces of his creation and use them for their own purposes. (One person who came in for criticism was his good friend, C.S. Lewis -- for the high crime of (a) referring to Numinor in his book THAT HIDEOUS STRENGTH, and (b) misspelling it.) As for your other point -- "none has dared to touch them so" -- Again, alas! not so. Aside from the grosser rip-offs perpetrated by such game designers as TSR (makers of Dungeons And Dragons, a game that originally had much to recommend it but suffered greatly from plagiarism -- both IN it and OF it), no less a literary luminary than Marion Zimmer Bradley published some time ago a chapbook called "The Jewel of Arwen." This is included in the recent collection of the "Best" of MZB -- a laughable title, for while Marion has written much that is good, this book ain't it. "The Jewel of Arwen" is a discussion of the stone given by Arwen Evenstar to Aragorn, a lovely grace note to the history of the Third Age -- and she screws it up utterly. First of all, she makes assumptions about the history of the T.A. that are utterly unwarranted, the more so since they are unnecessary to the story, and that have been "proven" wrong by the posthumous publications of Tolkien's own version of that history. Secondly, it isn't even very much of a story -- rather more as if MZB had decided to write another Appendix to tLotR. And finally, it's internally illogical. Then, of course, there are the massive reams of fanfiction which have been published, usually by mimeograph, over the years. And finally, there is Terry Brooks's contemptible thing (I suppose it's a book, but I can't bring myself to call it one), THE SWORD OF SHA-NA-NA -- oh, excuse me, I mean SHANNARA -- which is best summed up by a review which appeared in the EAST BAY EXPRESS at the time of its publication -- a review which consisted only of a plot summary of TSoS -- or was it a plot summary of tLotR? Actually, it was both: the reviewer summarized tSoS, but after each character's name, he inserted in (parentheses) the original name of the character, as created by JRR Tolkien -- the plot was so closely, slavishly followed, that a five hundred word plot summary matched, point for point, character for character. And THAT is why we have copyright laws that prevent you and I from writing our own sequels to tLotR -- or, at least, from publishing them without permission from the heirs and assigns of the writer. Why these laws did not restrain Ms. Bradley is a source of eternal mystification to me. Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Aug 86 01:11:22 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #190 >I will mainly comment on the second. There are much older rings of >power than Tolkiens - e g the Niebelungen ring, which appears in >Wagner, but goes back to old Germanic stories. . . . Certainly. Rings have been used as symbols, as well as ornamentation, for ages, and there must be many, many stories concerning them. Also of amulets, bracelets, and other decorations. Observe a couple of the variations concerning rings of power, though: - Lord of the Rings (Tolkien). The Ring, made to dominate others, gives any wearer power according to his stature, but eats at his mind as it does so, eventually enslaving him. He finds it almost impossible to give it up voluntarily. As a side effect on mortal wearers, it turns them invisible, and stretches their lifespans. Its creator never meant to lose it, and his no means of recovering it beyond constant surveillance. Much of its creator's former power now resides in it, and he effectively stands or falls with it. - the Ring of the Nibelung (Wagner). The Ring is also made to dominate, but, at least at the time of its making, it has no other power: it does not enslave, or consume the mind; however, to be able to forge it, the smith must first forswear all love. It is not the power of its maker (who has virtually none) that infuses it, but power inherent in the gold -- the Rhinegold -- of which it's forged. For invisibility (or indeed, for any kind of change of appearance), the Tarnhelm must be worn, and it has nothing to do with the ring. Wotan steals the ring from the Nibelung who forged it, as the Nibelung stole the gold from the Rhine, and steals as well the Tarnhelm. In his helpless rage, the Nibelung curses the Ring, stating in particular that those who don't have it will lust for it; that the one who does have it will know no peace; and that he will attract his destroyer to him -- "..The lord of the ring as the ring's slave" -- until it is restored to the Nibelung's hand. "Thus in highest need does the Nibelung bless his ring." (errors in translation all mine). The curse is almost immediately effective, as a giant kills his brother to have the ring, rather than all the rest of the Nibelung's treasure. Much of the grief that ensues (though certainly not all of it) stems from this curse. (I have never seen a satisfactory explanation of how the Nibelung, from whom the Ring had already been taken, retained sufficient power to cause the curse.) (To any afficionado of the Ring cycle, this is an appallingly abridged account, but if I were to list even half the story of Das Rheingold here (much less the other three operas, which are all larger), there'd be no room for the rest of the message). Interesting similarities, but conspicuous differences. I have no idea how much familiarity Tolkien had with Wagner's Ring. He could hardly have escaped the craze for Wagner's operas that had swept over Britain, but I have no way of knowing whether any elements of Wagner's ring came over into his. >I was always stricken by Tolkien,s choice of names he being such a >great scholar in languages and history. . . . Do you mean "struck?" If so, then so was I, right from the first time I read it. It almost the first time I had encountered names in fantasy that seemed solid and genuine, instead of obviously contrived. >It therefore seems to me that the Elves are in their essence the >peoples that habitated Western Europe before 2000 BC, the men are >the Indoeuropeans (with a Northern or Germanic and a Southern or >Latin branch, called the Rohan (a noble French family) and Gondor >(which even has a hint of India in it). On the other hand all evil >seems to come out of Asia, with Mongol or Turkish names; Tolkien >was certainly no admirer of Stalin or Attila the Hun. The Rings >may even be something else, namely the successive gains of human >technology, such as the hunting skills, the agricultural ones, the >handicrafts, eventually to be superseded by the One Ring, which I >take to be the governmental use of technology for miliary purposes. >It is natural to draw a parallel with the books of C S Lewis, >including That Hideous Strength, where nuclear power and nuclear >bombs "contaminate" an Oxford college. Those Inklings where of >that idealistic You seem to me here to be ascribing to Tolkien something he detested, and said so in print: allegory. He mentions efforts by other people to try to assign allegorical meanings to LotR, the most obvious one being that it was a fantasy reflection of England during the war. He went to pains to demonstrate that it was not. Now, I've heard it suggested that, since an author's environment will be a constant influence on him, not always recognised as such, he must inevitably be writing "allegory", as his environment affects his writing. Personally, I find the suggestion rather contrived. If somebody wants to explore it, that is of course their own business; but I don't think the author would have approved, and I don't want to become involved. So, whatever his own opinions of great French families, or of mid-Asiatic tribes, we must look elsewhere than LotR to find them. Besides, if you're suggesting that the Rohirrim were supposed to reflect on the Rohan family, remember that they were described as tall, mostly with long blond hair tied in braids. If any modern connection were to be drawn, it seems to me as if it should be more Scandinavian than French. As for associating the skill of forging Rings of Power with levels of technology, it's an idea new to me, and I'm not aware of any support for it. Again, knowing Tolkien's aversion to allegory, I must assume that LotR contains no such association, explicit or implied. Tolkien and Lewis were good friends, and Lewis gave considerable criticism and reaction to Tolkien's work (I assume it was reciprocated). But they by no means had the same philosophies. Lewis enjoyed allegory, and wrote it beautifully -- we are indebted to that for the Chronicles of Narnia. He did not create deep cultures with many roots and many languages -- Tolkien did that. Tolkien wanted simply to tell a story, without also asking it to bear the weight of a more subtle "message". Lewis wanted to make a point. So the fact that they were friends and coworkers should by no means be taken to suggest that they wrote the same way. They didn't. >It seems to me that the forging of a ring implies technological >progress (whether astrological or military) but that its possession >implies command rather than innovation of such powers. The use as >well as the range of power involved in the forging will depend on >the nature of the individual or people that partakes in thre >process; the moral problems, however, remain quite unchanged. I'm sorry, I'm not following you here. Could you perhaps give examples of what you mean? What "power" involved in forging? What moral problems? >El may mean star in Elvish, but in Hebrew it is certainly one of >the lesser names of God himself. As to the nature of Gandalf etc >one is reminded of the speculations of C S Lewis concerning angels >and semi-gods. The Inklings, very well read both in classical and >Nordic lore found it hard to believe that God had cheated those >peoples permitting them to rever the classic gods, Jupiter, Wotan >etc. They had to exist therefore, even to rule the planets named >after them. In the Biblical language they are angels, some of them >benevolent others fallen or evil. A possible entymology for "Eldar" and related words, but if you mean to suggest that the Elves are the children of God, they are not: they are the firstborn of Iluvatar, which is something else. I have my own feelings about how the number of gods in which people believe has been reduced through the centuries. But again, I don't think it has anything to do with Gandalf, the Maiar, the Valar, or any other creature of Middle Earth. >In old tales, some animals can speak. They convey messages and >feelings, 'but have never to take moral stands, so they can not be >regarded as people. The Orcs, I take it, symbolize first of all >the peoples of Central Asia, and as such are our enemies, but not >necessarily evil. They serve the evil masters simply because these >masters are kings and despots of Asia, a continent where >individualism and democracy (in the view of the inklings and their >generation) has not yet taken root. Morally, therefore, they can be >compared to the Classic peoples, before they met Christiantity - >after Death they will go not to Hell but to Dante's purgatorio. The >Nazguls, on the other hand, did have a choice and are therefore, in >this world picture, hell-bound. Whether angels can die - I do not >think so. They can be imprisoned though, and put through mental >torture. As to the Balrogs, I feel they can be a kind of robots, >electronically steered tanks... I'm afraid I must continue to take exception. Orcs don't symbolise anything: they are simply Orcs. Likewise Balrogs. I have no idea what Tolkien's political view are, but I am 100% certain they are not to be found in LotR. BTW, the plural of Nazgul is simply Nazgul. And they were not angels, they were the ghosts of powerful men, with their wills conquered and replaced by Sauron's. If you want to place angels in Middle Earth, you must look at the Valar, which name, I believe, translates essentially as "angelic powers". >This discussion seems strange to me, as though the debaters thought >there was a real series of events, . . . In my mind, Tolkien >creates, . . . partly to his ends, following partly an inner logic. I assume that the creation of the story did follow some such pattern, as Tolkien had accumulated a number of sources of inspiration. But as for treating it as a real series of events, it has been pointed out before that Tolkien styled himself translator of a formerly lost history, rather than the creator of Middle Earth. I don't know how others may feel about it, but I'm happy to accept that convention, and discuss Middle Earth from that point of view. It works very well. Though considering that I have never seen any other work of fiction discussed this way, I understand why it may seem strange to do so. >The Elves, I Think, must partly be seen as grown-ups with all sorts >of sorrows and misfortunes and faults that remain partly obscured >to the hobbits, who are in comparison like naive children. I like >to think of the Elves as French or Italians, Jews or Armenians, >with a long history of culture and suffering compared to the naive >Hobbits, perhaps residents of some peaceful corner of Europe who >escaped war for 180 years now. Again: I think the Elves must be seen as Elves, not as surrogates for some other people, or even as standard bearers for all peoples with similar histories. While I see a certain validity in the images you use, they seem to me more a way of explaining the Elves and Hobbits than the reverse. >Ys I think was not a country but a city. In the Southern Baltic >there are similar tales . . . , new lands rise out of the sea >instead. Most interesting. I had no idea of that. I am aware that Venice, for instance, is sinking at an unpleasant rate; that the fen country in England is kept dry only by considerable labour; and that, ages ago, Britain was a peninsula of Europe (now the "pen" is gone, and it is a full "insula"). I hear that fishermen have brought up ancient implements from the bottom of the North Sea. But I hadn't heard the more general story. Ah well, that's continental drift for you. Obviously, how any one person feels about and reacts to a story is his/her own private affair. If the reader feels privately that book X is full of allegorical meaning, no matter what the author has said about it, that is between reader and book. However, I feel that in any discussion of the matter, and especially in an essay, the views and wishes of the author must be remembered. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Aug 86 1004-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #244 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 11 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 244 Today's Topics: Books - Card & King & Celtic Myths, Television - SF TV (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Time Travel (2 msgs) & Possible Story Plot ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Aug 86 22:49:57 GMT From: unirot!dtt@caip.rutgers.edu (David Temkin) Subject: SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD by Orson Scott Card: Book Review I just read _Speaker for the Dead_, Orson Scott Card's sequel to _Ender's Game_. I was so taken with the first book that as soon as I finished it, I began my search for the sequel. It's not out in paperback yet, and I had to look through the SF shelves of about eight bookstores before I found it. I expected to be disappointed by _Speaker_, because (as we all know) everything gets worse, especially in the arts. Fortunately, my expectations were dashed. The book was great. * Major spoilers ahead if you haven't read Ender's Game * Minor spoilers ahead otherwise Following Ender's destruction of the Bugger homeworld in _Ender's Game_, he establishes a sort of "religion" centered around the idea of speaking about a person following their death -- a speech which is an honest portrayal of the deceased person's life, ambitions, actions, motivations, etc. Caught up in this is the religion's "bible", a book describing the Buggers' civilization. In fact, this book was written by Ender himself, with the help of the bugger hive queen (who still lives, although nobody knows it). Speaker for the Dead opens on a new world where the men have encountered yet another intelligent species (the third such species following humans and buggers). Contact between men and the newly discovered species (called "piggies") is severely limited by law (a Star Trek-style non-interference law, but more rigidly enforced). Eventually, the piggies start killing men for mysterious reasons. Ender is called to Speak the death of one of the dead men, and most of the book concerns the unravelling of the mystery of the deaths, in which Ender plays a central role. The book stands out for a number of reasons. First are its believable characters -- they have human emotions, motivations, and shortcomings. Their reactions are much more believable than most sf I'm familiar with. Also, the characters' culture, for once, is not based on that of WASP America. The inhabitants are originally from Portugal, and are strongly Catholic. (This, of course, makes Ender's task all the more difficult since he comes as the emissary of a sort of humanist religion). The book contains some Portuguese, and it does indeed add to the book's authenticity (the names of the characters are an example of this). The technology the book introduces is, for the most part, believable. I have problems with the notion of the "ansible" (originally seen, I think, in Le Guin's _The Left Hand of Darkness_ and _The Word for World is Forest_) which provides instant communication across any amount of space. It doesn't make sense in light of Card's use of it in conjunction with relativistic time dilation. The use of computers is commendable, as it was in _Ender's Game_, although his introduction of a spontaneosly generated artificially intelligent being undermines the book's credibility if you know anything about computers. Net addicts will appreciate Card's use of computer networks in both novels. It seems that _Speaker_ is the middle book in a trilogy. I can't wait to read the next one -- the first two rank with David Brin's _Startide Rising_ as my favorite sf novels of the past few years. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 8 Aug 1986 02:12:50-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: CARRIE From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) > ...The thought of dePalma directing TDM after what he did to > CARRIE (which is actually a tolerable SF novel, unlike much of his > later, more formulaic horror)... Eh? CARRIE was the only one of King's novels that I consider poorly written (nice idea, but weak execution). DePalma's film was infinitely better. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Aug 86 09:15 CDT From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: Re: Celtic myth books Kenneth Flint has written some books in the Celtic milieu: Storm Upon Ulster, Riders of the Sidhe, Champoin of the Sidhe, and others I can't recall. I haven't read them, but my wife liked Storm Upon Ulster. Also, an unusual combination of celtic myth and American Indian myth is found in Charles deLint's Moonheart. I enjoyed this book a lot. Brett (Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 86 20:41:16 GMT From: felix!billw@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Weinberger) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs From: ops@ncsc.ARPA (Tharp) >Here are a few science fiction television programs I remember from >my childhood in the sixties. I am not reviewing or recommending >any of these programs, just recalling them from the memory of a >child who yearned to "go out there and do neat stuff." I'll bite. Here are my comments and additions. >LOST IN SPACE - or as my father called it "Space Family Robinson". >This was one of my favorite shows when I was growing up, in the >mid-sixties. Mine, too. Except now when I see it on re-reruns it seems incredibly stupid. Don't underestimate the (lack of :-) ) taste of a 10-year-old. >MY FAVORITE MARTIAN - who can ever forget Bill Bixby as the >bumbling This one stands the test of time much better. >THE LAND OF THE GIANTS - a group of commuters on a 21st century >shuttle get caught in some sort of warp and end up on a planet of >giant humans I didn't follow this one too closely. Not a classic. >THE TIME TUNNEL - two guys zapping through time doing stuff. Ditto my comment on LOST IN SPACE. But still fun to watch when it comes around. >VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA - I can't remember the names of any >of the stars, You don't remember Richard Basehart?!!!! One of the all time great deep voices and currently the voice for the elder Michael Knight (I never watch Knight Rider). And don't forget David Heddison (forgive my spelling on both names). They played the Admiral and the Captain of the submarine 'Seaview'. Ditto my LOST IN SPACE comment. I'd also include: STAR TREK - too obvious. IT'S ABOUT TIME - a one season (or two?) bomb about two (?) astronauts caught in a time warp and landing in the prehistoric ages. The only thing I really remember is one of the cavemen was played by an actor from CAR 54 (ooh -- ooh) and somehow they were rescued from the past and brought a caveman to the present. BATMAN - At least *I* think its sort of SF. With the BAT-mobile, BAT-computer and all the other gadgets it seems to fit in with the others. MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E. - Some of these shows are great, others are right in there with the bad science of LOST IN SPACE. Not really SF all of the time, but certainly hi-tech for the sixties. Most shows seem to have had a mad scientist out to conquer the world. "Open channel D." OUTER LIMITS - This may really be from the fifties, but *I* watched it in the sixties. Some of these shows are right on par with TWILIGHT ZONE, others are just cheap monster shows. But all seemed to want to address real science (fiction) themes. One of the greats had David McCallum (from Man From UNCLE) as a man with an evolution accelerator, who tried to become future-man in his own generation. Enough for me, any others? Regards, Bill Weinberger FileNet Corporation ...! {decvax, ihnp4, ucbvax} !trwrb!felix!billw ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 8 Aug 1986 03:12:58-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: SF-TV programs (errata) From: ops@ncsc.ARPA (Jessie Tharp) > LOST IN SPACE - or as my father called it "Space Family Robinson". Actually, some authorities claim that it was supposed to be based on the SPACE FAMILY ROBINSON comic book (which later changed its title to SPACE FAMILY ROBINSON LOST IN SPACE). The resemblence is very superficial, though. > ...the handsome scientist father Robinson (played if I am not > mistaken by the actor who portrayed Zorro in the TV series -- Guy > Madison)... Yes and no. You've got the actor pegged right, but his name was Guy Williams. > ...and the obligatory whiz kid Robinson (some nondescript child > actor ). Billy Mumy wasn't a household name, but he wasn't exactly "non-descript", either. He appeared in two TWILIGHT ZONE episodes (one of which, "It's a GOOD Life!", was remade in the movie, with Mumy making a cameo appearance). Mumy also has the distinction, if memory serves, of being the first male to be kissed on-screen by Bridget Bardot. :-) > ...Of course there was the robot, Robbie... Common mistake. Robbie was the robot in FORBIDDEN PLANET; the LOST IN SPACE robot had no name. > ...and a shaggy dog of some sort. You're thinking of Debbie the Bloop, who was basicly a chimpanzee with a fancy headdress. > ...The first time I ever saw Michael J. Pollard was on "Lost in > Space" in an episode that had Angela confronting, in a typically > confusing sixties TV way, her emerging sexuality. This was one of my favorite episodes from the show. > VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA - I can't remember the names of > any of the stars... Richard Basehart and David (nee Al) Hedison. > THE VISITORS - this one was great! David Jansen getting chased all > over America again (remember The Fugitive?) as a reporter who has > discovered that aliens have invaded Earth and are replacing humans > (sort of a 30 minute _Invasion_of_the_Body_Snatchers_). The memory is slipping badly here. (1) It's THE INVADERS; (2) It was Roy Thinnes playing David Vincent; (3) he was an architect, not a reporter. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 86 19:19:13 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment From: caip!ihnp4!mmm!cipher (Andre Guirard) >It seems like I've heard a theory to the effect that time travel >can't exist not because it's theoretically impossible, but because >the invention of time travel makes it possible to modify the past, >making time travel never to have been discovered. Knowing how to >travel in time is an unstable situation. I believe this suggestion is due to Larry Niven. Frank Adams Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 86 23:28:52 GMT From: goldberg_4b@h-sc4.harvard.edu (Randy Goldberg) Subject: Re: Time Travel In this vein of discussion, I believe that a set of short stories by Isaac Asimov are very appropos. I refer, of course, to the Thiotimoline stories. The first two of these three stories are written as pseudo-scientific papers. Unfortunately, I only recall the title of the first in the series, viz.: "The Endochronic Properties of Resublimated Thiotimoline" Any good Asimov collection and/or biography will tell you all three, and the anecdote associated with the first -- When undergoing the Orals on his doctorate in Biochemistry, Isaac had just had the story published by John W. Campbell (we've all heard of him, haven't we?), only NOT under a pseudonym, as was promised. The last question asked in the Oral grilling was: "Mr. Asimov, please tell us something about the thermodynamics associated with Thiotimoline." Of course, the good Doctor broke up (and obviously got the Doctorate!). *****SPOILERS****** Thiotimoline is a substance which actually dissolves BEFORE water is added! It can thus be used as a predicting device. That is, set up a relay such that, when water is added to the first, it releases water into the one before it, about 1.3 seconds before you add the water to the first! A long enough chain of these would allow the following to occur: You resolve that if a certain horse wins in the races tomorrow, you will add water to the Thiotimoline relay. If so, the final member of the relay would dissolve TODAY, thus ensuring that the horse WILL win tomorrow! All kinds of fun things happen if the last member does dissolve, and you then prevent the first from doing so (This part I can't spoil -- I don't remember enough of it). In any case, this is certainly appropriate to the discussion at hand, no? goldberg_4b@h-sc4. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 86 15:09:14 GMT From: glasgow.glasgow!jack@caip.rutgers.edu (Jack Campin) Subject: germ of a story? (from 1836) The following comes from "The Magazine of Popular Science and Journal of the Useful Arts" (published by John W. Parker, West Strand, London) Volume the First (1836) page 208: Unaccountable Theft of Chemicals by Rats About two years ago, in the warehouse of Mr. Johnson, Chemical-manufacturer, in Hatton-Garden, 50 oz. of Oxide of Uranium were put into as many half-ounce bottles, each bottle wrapped in paper, and put into a drawer, in a counter. The premises having been injured by an accidental fire, the floor of the room in which the oxide was kept was taken up, about six weeks ago: between the floor-boards and the ceiling of the room beneath, were found deposited, twenty-eight of the above bottles, and two others. The paper wrappers had been removed, and the outsides of the bottles were dirty, but the corks were sound, except a few which had been slightly nibbled, and the contents of the bottles were untouched. The other two bottles, containing Tungstic Acid, were also found corked, and untouched. The removal of these bottles had been effected by rats. The counter was nearly destroyed by the fire, but the workman who made it recollected that it had no back-casing, and that the oxide-drawer did not go close up to the division which separated it from the drawer above; so that a long aperture between them was left; through this the rats had entered. They then must have lifted the bottles, passed them through the aperture over the back of the drawer, and dropped or lowered them down to the floor, and afterwards dragged them to their deposit. But what was the inducement to commit the robbery? The oxide of uranium is inodorous and tasteless, though of the latter quality they could not be aware, as all the bottles were found tightly corked, and the enclosed quantities were evidently the same as when put into the drawer. A deficit in the oxide had been observed, but the amount had never been exactly ascertained before the fire happened which drove the thieves from their retreat, and was the means by which the owner recovered the stolen property. <end of article> This raises a few more questions now that it did in 1836 - anybody out there like to write a story to explain WHY??? (was one of those bottles destined to be the one Becquerel used to discover radioactivity? what REALLY happens to the MUF from Windscale? ...) (I found this magazine by chance in the discards bin outside an Edinburgh second hand bookshop. It was pretty good, remarkably similar to New Scientist in its coverage. I only got three issues: I have no idea if it lasted or if it had any connection with the US "Popular Science".) Department of Computing Science University of Glasgow Glasgow G12 8QQ Scotland JANET: jack@uk.ac.glasgow.cs USENET: jack@cs.glasgow.ac.uk or: jack@glasgow.uucp British Telecon: 041 339 8855 x 6045 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Aug 86 1018-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #245 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 11 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 245 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Aug 86 22:51:09 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: alien evolution? markl@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU writes: > Also, if the facehuggers are really "analyzers", they must be able > to analyze at a distance. Otherwise, how do they know that > Jonesie would not be a viable host? And how do they know, without > fastening on to them, that Ripley and Newt *are* viable hosts? Jonesie never got a chance to be exposed to a facehugger. Face-huggers hatch from eggs, and Jones was never around eggs. Come to think of it, that's why Jones wasn't infected. He wasn't recognized as a host by the warrior. Anyway, the point is that, to an egg, anything within a certain biological range is a potential host. Jonesy might have been too small to be considered a host. However, if he was suitable, the facehugger would have grabbed him, and inserted an embryo that would have grown up to be a cat-sized warrior. As far as how the aliens know something, that's a reasonable question. As other people have stated, the aliens have got some alien sort of sensing technique. call it organic sensors or clairvoyance or whatever. but aliens seem to KNOW things. david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 86 09:13:12 PDT (Thursday) From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Aliens (Nightmare Sequence) I object to the statement that the nightmare sequence was just a cheap thrill. One of the basic premises of the movie was that Ripley was a haunted woman. If we weren't given a taste of the nightmares Ripley was experiencing, could we really have sympathized with her desire to go back? Would it have seemed at all reasonable to expose herself again if we didn't know what she was going through every night? The nightmare sequence brought back all the horror of the original movie to me, which allowed me to believe in Ripley's strong motivations for the rest of the movie. Kurt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 86 15:54:43 EDT From: stev@BU-CS.BU.EDU Subject: more bughunt stuph >The other argument against Bishop being a Company rat is the fact >that in the scene in which Ripley tells him to destroy the >face-huggers in the Med-lab after he was through with them, Bishop >very openly tells her that Burke told him to pack them for >transport back home. If he was attempting to sneak (or help sneak) >the Bugs back home, why would he tell this to Ripley? That could >sabotage his subterfuge. Even if he figured that he could insure >that she didn't reach Earth alive, there would have been no >advantage in telling her and all the advantage in *not* telling >her. The Marines already knew Bishop, they wanted him to do the knife trick "again". So Bishop was not a Company rat, He was a Marine construct, to help them. From: srt@CS.UCLA.EDU >If they had FTL, why did they use cold sleep? Not to save mass, as >you suggest, since normal physics of acceleration don't matter and >17 days of O2 masses considerably less than a room full of sleep >equipment. You tell us, hutch. And what about the food? And the waste they produce? And the entertainment they will need? And the supplies like clothes and such? More mass than a bunch of O2, isn't it? It would be much easier to keep them out for long periods of time if you didnt have to worry about them going space-happy on you. Just because it took 17 days this time doesnt mean they can get anywhere in a short time. >Yawn. Is this the joke about the universal solvent again? And how >about the specimen jars in the lab? And you jibe me for being >science ignorant. The acid blood only appeared when the aliens were ruptured, the ones in the tanks were unharmed. What about the one Bishop was taking apart? We can assume he was careful to not spill anything out of the body, or possibly the colonists had found a way to neutralize the acid (remember, THEY had a full lab, and more time than the crew did in the first movie.) Most of the holes mentioned so far are very small nits, not worth being picked. It is a reasonably tight movie, possibly not what you wanted, but pretty good. stev ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 86 15:33:13 GMT From: mmm!cipher@caip.rutgers.edu (Andre Guirard) Subject: Re: alien evolution? From: markl@borax.lcs.mit.edu >Also, if the facehuggers are really "analyzers", they must be able >to analyze at a distance. Otherwise, how do they know that Jonesie >would not be a viable host? And how do they know, without >fastening on to them, that Ripley and Newt *are* viable hosts? It's obvious that Jonesie is unsuitable: he's too small. As for Ripley and Newt, there's always smell. Bishop might have been spared because he (it?) doesn't smell organic. Perhaps anything that smells okay and is of an appropriate size is a candidate for implantation. If it turns out the Alien can't adapt to the organism it can always just kill that one, go away and try another. Andre Guirard ihnp4!mmm!cipher ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 86 00:10:57 GMT From: ames!barry@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry) Subject: ALIENS - nits and speculations (*SPOILERS*) Saw it last nite, read all the net-stuff (this must set a record for net volume on one topic!) today. Some of what follows is new, I promise. 1) Wimpier aliens in the second movie: debateable. The original alien is *never* hit with serious firepower in the first film. Dallas took a flamethrower into the air ducts, but he bites the dust offstage, and there's no hint whether he ever got to use it. That alien's *fast*. Parker also has a flamethrower, but hesitates too long, waiting for a clear shot (Lambert's in the way). He clearly never fires. The final fight between Ripley and the queen, being more hand- to-hand, does make the queen look wimpier, but that's reasonable. She's a queen, not a warrior, and even though she's bigger, it's not unreasonable to believe she's also slower than the fighters, and less combat-competent. 2) Why isn't the ship in orbit as brainy as Bishop? Human caution. The more complex the intelligence, the more unpredictable. It would be hard to make a machine with human intelligence absolutely incapable of turning on its masters, and doubly so in the case of a combat vessel, designed to be destructive. If an artificial person like Ash malfunctions you may end up with an unfortunate death or two, but it's only a day- to-day type tragedy, not a threat to the race. Give a combat vessel that kind of brainpower, though? *Very* dangerous. If it goes berserk, who's to say it might not subvert a whole fleet of brainy battleships to join it? Frankly, I'd rather fight the aliens; safer. Random notes: Scott Turner asked why the Company didn't have more faith in Ripley, since they'd put her in charge of an expensive cargo ship. Sorry, Scott - Ripley was third officer in a mere 7-man crew. A responsible job, maybe, but hardly "in charge". FTL: clearly they had it. As someone else pointed out, the Nostromo is stated to be 10 months from Earth while at Acheron, but Alpha Centauri isn't even in scanning range. That means FTL of some sort, no way around it. Exploding fusion reactor: unlikely on its face, but who knows what the actual reactor design was like? Too far in our future to guess. Maybe they used fusion to manufacture antimatter (compact storage?), and the explosion resulted from loss of containment of the antimatter. Anyway, it's all speculation. We just weren't told enough to judge if such an explosion was reasonable. Origin of the aliens: I'd guess they were designed, not evolved. I have a hard time believing that any natural critter could use life-forms from other planets, whose biology would be *totally* foreign to them, as hosts. It only makes sense to me if they were designed with this intent in mind. Argueable, I admit, but more reasonable than the alternative. Overall consistency/logic rating: A-. I'll grant that some of the nits being picked have merit, but gimme a break! The sci-fi movie crap I cut my teeth on in the '50's and '60's couldn't measure up to ALIENS in this regard if it stood on stilts, and blatant stupidity in filmed sci-fi is still with us in epidemic proportions. ALIENS is quality stuff, SF rather than sci-fi. If only we were always so fortunate. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA {ihnp4,vortex,dual,nsc,hao,hplabs}!ames!barry ------------------------------ Date: Thu 7 Aug 86 22:59:38-CDT From: David Gadbois <CGS.GADBOIS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU> Subject: Re: Oooh, A Fight! A Fight! (And more _ALIENS_) >Why does the commander always have to be an idiot? Portraying the >military as "dumb" has become de facto since Vietnam. I'm tired of >it. It is an easy out for script writers that adds nothing to the >movie. The commander wasn't an idiot; he was just green. He acted like any inexperienced person in a bewildering situation would act: he froze up. As to the rest of the marines being dumb, that certainly wasn't the case. Sure they were too cocky, but they were marines, after all. >Question: Would _Aliens_ have been a better movie if the commander >and the marines had been top-notch, made no mistakes and still been >nearly killed by the Aliens (led by a hideously intelligent Queen)? This is getting silly. _Aliens_ is a [fb]movie,[fr] not real life. It's a contrived narrative designed to be entertaining. If all the characters had been completely rational, _Aliens_ would have been the biggest snoozer of the year. It is fine to argue that if the commander had done this or if Ripley had done that, things would have turned out peachy, but they didn't, and the movie thereby turned out to be worth watching. David Gadbois cgs.gadbois@R20.UTEXAS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 86 22:36:38 GMT From: ucdavis!cccsam@caip.rutgers.edu (Sam McCall - Hacker In From: Residency) Subject: Re: ALIENS (intelligence of aliens) joel@peora.UUCP (Joel Upchurch) writes: >There has been a lot of discussion about how intelligent the aliens >are, since some of the things they do appear to be too complex to >be covered by instinct. > >I just thought of another hypothesis. Maybe the aliens are able to >absorb RNA from their hosts. That was an alien might incorporate >some of the knowledge and skills of their host, although it might >take some time to put this information into some usable order. > >This approach would not necessarily be exclusive of the constuct >theory, since the ability to absorb and use host RNA, could have >been designed in also. An example of what we may consider to be 'intelligence' on the part of the aliens, and one that I haven't seen mentioned yet, is shown in the scene where Ripley finds herself facing the queen. The camera then shows an alien warrior blocking either entrance to the room, and they begin to approach her. Ripley then looses a burst of flame (or bullets?) in the room, and the warriors back off and hide. I believe that humans, when faced with a 'hostage' situation similar to this, would respond in a similar manner. The warriors 'realize' that if they attempt to get Ripley, she may torque her cannons loose in the queen's face. Then again, maybe not. sam mccall unix consultant computer center university of california, davis ...{lll-crg,ucbvax}!ucdavis!deneb!cccsam ...ucdavis!deneb!cccsam@ucbvax.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 86 17:51:38 GMT From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton) Subject: Artificial Persons in ALIENS t820@sphinx.UUCP (tuow ting) writes: >Back to Aliens. Question: If robots could be made as well Bishop, >why didn't the marines send in a whole team of them to investigate >the alien planet with humans acting as guides from a save distance? >Wouldn't safety to human lives outweigh the cost of having to >possibly replace to robots? (I know, I know, this is nitpicking >too, but I loved the movie regardless) I think the term Artificial Person might give a clue. Perhaps these creatures are LEGALLY artificial persons, which is to say that they have the same rights and duties as persons. Thus one would not be built into a cruiser - it violates the machine's rights. Squads of them would not be marines unless they wanted to. Chances are they cost so much to make that you couldn't do this anyway. This makes some sense in an interstellar culture which has had to deal with the concept of non-human intelligence. (There is some somewhere - somebody built the original derilict in ALIEN. We can only speculate if humanity has met some others.) Consider that nobody feels they have the right to order Bishop to summon the ship - it is a volunteer mission. Even Ash acted no differently from an unscrupulous company rep who nonetheless had a free will and rights. If there is a race battle between artificial and real persons then he might have been glad (?) to use the crew members as expendable tools. Perhaps it is this attitude which caused the passing of laws insisting APs have an asimovian style robotics law. Brad Templeton Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Aug 86 12:24:32 EDT From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@labs-b.bbn.com> Subject: Re: Alien, original concept? Don Chitwood has pointed out the similarity between ALIEN and van Vogt's VOYAGE OF THE SPACE BEAGLE. The similarity occurred to Mr. van Vogt, too. He was paid a kill fee ($75K, as I recall) by the producers of ALIEN so that he wouldn't take them to court. (Incidentally, the original short story, later incorporated into VOTSB, was "Black Destroyer," published in Astounding with some neat illos. If you want, Don, I'll look up the issue, unless Jerry beats me to it.) BTW, ALIEN was not the first movie to use that plot. The same idea is the basis of the wretched 1958 picture IT! THE TERROR FROM BEYOND SPACE, which sometimes appears on TV or as a late movie at cons. If you like turkeys, it falls into the category "so bad, it's funny." ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 86 23:41:19 GMT From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*) ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes: >In any case, if I was Ripley, I'd scan everyone just on general >principles. And why didn't she nuke the original space ship??? >Perhaps because she thought the colonial government would move in >and wipe them out, now that she's exposed the Company's coverup? I keep seeing this complaint, "Why didn't Ripley scan everybody?" What makes you think she didn't? One would suppose she also went to the toilet before bedding down in the refrigerated bunk, and they didn't show THAT either... Anyway, why should we assume that the ship has the equipment for a scan? Not to say that they don't but we never see it. *I* think that the queen-bugger laid an egg on the shuttle ship and it is just WAITING to reach out and TOUCH someone. Yeah, so she tore off her egg sac. No guarantee that she couldn't have an auxiliary egg-laying system. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Aug 86 10:45 EDT From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA Subject: aliens looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton) writes: >All in all the movie was superb, but the ending in the mother >ship was weak. The fight in the waldo-suit didn't make any sense >to me. If I escaped behind the bulkhead, I would come back with a >grenade launcher, not a loader. What happens if Ripley hits the queen with a grenade launcher on board the mother ship? The queen explodes, sending super-acid all over the the ship, creating innumerable holes in the hull which would lose the ship's air long before they could be repaired. Ripley wanted to stun (or kill) the queen with the loader without piercing her chilitanous armor, then flush her out the airlock (which she subsequently did.) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Aug 86 0927-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #246 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 12 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 246 Today's Topics: Books - Bradley & Resnick, Films - Lensman, Television - SF TV (3 msgs) & Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Time Travel & Black Holes (2 msgs) & Sexy SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Aug 86 09:35 CDT From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: Re: Biggle ... and Bradley > The World Menders Novel > > Note the last title. This is NOT the book by the same name by > Marion Zimmer Bradley. Sorry, but the book you are refering to is The Planet Savers by MZB. Semantically the same, but not quite. She has also written a book called The World Wreckers. Brett (Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 86 12:34:10 GMT From: gouldsd!mjranum@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Mike Resnick's _Santiago:_A_myth_of_the_far_future_ I just finished this one, and would like to recommend it to those out there who enjoy a decently crafted novel of no great social importance. The plot is tightly wrapped, and there are many interesting characters that manage to retain believability despite some very unusual quirks. While the writing style is completely different, for some reason a lot of the characters and general tone made me think of Sam Delaney. This is another book about the bleak future of mankind. A bounty hunter and a jornalist, along with assorted scum and a cyborg spaceship go in search of the galaxy's greatest criminal. There are lots of cold- eyed assassins straight out of your favorite cliche, but gore and grossness are minimal. On a 0-10 this is a solid 6. Certainly it is a *LOT* better than the works various "famous" writers in SF are putting out nowadays. Read it. Live free... mjr ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Aug 86 9:58:34 EDT From: Ray Chen (MS W420) <chen@mitre-gateway.arpa> Subject: Re: Lensman About the Lensman animated movie. The animation was reasonable to great depending on your tastes in Japanese animation. What interested me more was how they handled the story. They destroyed it. The movie seemed to be loosely based on "The Galactic Patrol". (Sounds of a story being hacked, slashed, and burned in the distance.) VERY loosely. The Arisians were gone. Most of the action takes place on one planet. If you were wondering how telepathy and the mind-work was going be handled, the answer's simple. It wasn't. There's a flash of telepathy now and then, I think but the Lens in the movie basically isn't a telepathically-oriented device. Instead we get "The power of the Lens comes from love..." -- yuck. Clarissa McDougal was portrayed as your standard simpering damsel-in-distress type heroine. And her father(?) was the weirdest looking thing I've ever seen. Genetically speaking, I still can't figure out how someone who looks like a short brown elf and we're talking 4'6" or so with pointed ears no less, could possibly have a tall white redhead for a daughter. And to top it all off, the soundtrack is just dreadful. Standard heroic type music a lot of the time, but every time a climactic moment appeared (hero fighting villian to the death or something), they switch to elevator musak (tm). Summary: This movie doesn't have much more in common with the Lensman series besides the names. I was on the verge of throwing up more than once. Lensman fans -- avoid this movie and wait for someone to do it right. You'll be sorry if you don't. Ray Chen chen@mitre-gateway.arpa chen@gatech.uucp ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 86 20:04:57 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs From: ops@ncsc.ARPA (Tharp) > Here are a few science fiction television programs I remember from > my childhood in the sixties. I am not reviewing or recommending > any of these programs, just recalling them from the memory of a > child who yearned to "go out there and do neat stuff." > > LOST IN SPACE - or as my father called it "Space Family Robinson". Ah yes. Yet another Irwin Allen production. As I remember, CBS wouldn't buy Star Trek because they already had an SF show. Oh well. No one ever claimed any intelligence for network execs. Anyway, the boy was Bill Mummy (I think he played in Bless the Beasts and the Children, but that's the only other thing I remember him in). The robot was NOT Robbie, although he was designed by the same person who designed Robbie the Robot (from Forbidden Planet, and later in a lot of things. Columbo, Ark II (or something like that--a Saturday morning live action thing), a few cameos (in Gremlins, I think)). The robot's name was, originally enough, Robot. Robbie made a guest appearance in one of the episodes. I liked it at the time (the reruns are almost as good as Batman for laughs). Gold Key used to have a "Space Family Robinson" comic. It seemed to have roughly the same cast, but a completely different spaceship. Anybody remember for certain? > MY FAVORITE MARTIAN Yeah, another goodie. Isaac Asimov wrote a nifty essay on this, called "The Insidious Uncle Martin". > THE LAND OF THE GIANTS More Irwin Allen. I didn't like this at all. But it was post-Star Trek, and my tastes had changed. > THE TIME TUNNEL - two guys zapping through time doing stuff. I think Irwin Allen's first. Not nearly as bad as his later efforts. But I don't remember enough to be too critical. > THE WILD, WILD WEST - well, maybe not really science fiction but > they had a lot of neat gadgets. Yeah. I think the best show on your list. As long as we're on the subject, you should have mentioned THE AVENGERS. A number of the episodes had a science fiction/fantasy feel to them. > VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA - I can't remember the names of > any of the stars, or any of the stories, but I know my sister > watched this religiously. US Navy nuclear submarine zapping > around the world doing stuff underwater. More Irwin Allen. Again, I liked it at the time. Bat Girl (Yvonne Craig?) played Captain Crane's girlfriend in at least one episode. She also played on an episode of Star Trek, for what it's worth. Umm. The Seaview was an experimental Nuclear Sub (I don't think it was owned outright by the US Navy, but they did seem to have a suspicious number of weapons aboard for a civilian craft). It was designed by Admiral Nelson. Don't remember much else about the show, except that all of the giant humanoid monsters that they managed to run into were the same size (about twice the length of the Seaview). just about what you would expect if they only had a three foot model of the Seaview, and got men in rubber suits to play the monsters. And they had to crash into the ocean floor at least once each episode. > THE VISITORS - this one was great! David Jansen getting chased all > over Are you sure you don't mean THE INVADERS? > THE LAND OF THE LOST - my personal favorite, a Saturday morning > live- action kid's show. I watched it at first because Wesley Eure > (an actor on the daytime soap opera The Days Of Our Lives) was the > star. Then, in reruns, I forced my children to watch it every > Saturday morning and now years later we still watch the reruns > together. A father, son, and daughter get trapped in a > pre-historic parallel Earth, complete with dinosaurs, the missing > link, and the remnants of a once great reptilian civilization. This came out in the 70's, not the 60's. But it was pretty good. They were surprisingly consistent on this show--they came up with a language for the missing-link type people, that was even grammatically different from English. You mentioned a couple of soap opera figures in your posting. I'm surprised you didn't mention the best soap opera ever to appear on American TV-- DARK SHADOWS. Horror, with occassional SF overtones. The woman who played the witch, Angelique, showed up in a Night Stalker episode, where there was a witch who was doing nasty things to people. Guess who the witch was? david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 86 21:24:47 GMT From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes: >ops@ncsc.ARPA writes: >[Lost in Space robot] >was designed by the same person who designed Robbie the Robot (from >Forbidden Planet, and later in a lot of things. ...a few cameos (in >Gremlins, i think)). The robot's name was, originally enough, >Robot. Robbie made a guest appearance in one of the episodes. That one was my favorite! Listen to Robbie in Gremlins if you ever have the misfortune of seeing it again. He says someting like: "Yes, I can duplicate the substance. Will 5000 gallons be sufficient?" etc. [If you haven't seen FORBIDDEN PLANET, Robbie says this to the cook. Hey, anyone remember who played the cook? How about the Doc? I've forgotten,...] >> THE WILD, WILD WEST >I think the best show on your list. My favorite, anyway. >> VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA > >More Irwin Allen. Again, I liked it at the time. Bat Girl (Yvonne >Craig?) played Captain Crane's girlfriend in at least one episode. >She also played on an episode of Star Trek, for what it's worth. Funny you should say that! I just saw Yvonne Craig in THE MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E, another show on the list! Now, THAT'S my favorite one! kaufman@orion.arpa kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 86 11:34:36 GMT From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs I, too, loved Land of the Lost. With David Gerrold as story editor, frequent scripts by Larry Niven, and stop-motion dinosaurs by Gene "The Terminator" Warren, how could you go wrong? In my opinion, LotL was the North American Dr. Who. My favourite episode? The one by Walter "Chekov" Koenig in which Enik the Altrusian discovers that the savage Sleestak are his descendants, not his ancestors. Also fondly remember Niven's script about the space shuttle pilot who falls through a dimensional doorway that remains open, creating a hurricane. 'Coure, the whole thing went down the crapper in the second season. Cheers, Robert J. Sawyer in Toronto c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Aug 86 12:59 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: death in Star Trek To: Frank Hollander <hollande@DEWEY.UDEL.EDU> Cc: Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX <omen!caf@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU>, This is, by the way, another reason why I see a lot of philosophy in ST -- I've read a lot of it in ST fanzines which can get much deeper into the philosophical than the series or any of the pro novels. (I think StarWings is out of print, but if anyone's intested, message me, and I'll look into it.) Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 86 15:55:09 GMT From: ihlpa!lew@caip.rutgers.edu (Lew Mammel, Jr.) Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment >jbuck@epimass.UUCP (Joe Buck) writes: >> Why would it be a contradiction? Causal loops are certainly >> strange, but they can be drawn on a Minkowski space-time diagram >> easily enough. > > I can imagine something like a flat space with one temporal > coordinate t and (for simplicity) a spatial coordinate x, in which > two parallel slits are made at t=t0 and t=t1, t0 < t1, for x in > (0,1) say, and then the early cut side of the later slit is pasted > to the late cut side of the earlier slit: Isn't this just cylindrical space-time which is locally flat everywhere? I think it's just as viable as traditional flat space-time. You don't have to worry about the "other" edges! The imagined method of construction is arbitrary. Lew Mammel, Jr. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Aug 86 09:23 CDT From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: Re: Doomsday Effect and Black holes > ... Black holes *may* expel their mass as Hawking Radiation, by >means of pair production and subsequent capture of one of the >quanta.... This sounds very plausible. In pair production, a gamma photon "decays" into an electron and a positron that will move in opposite directions, if a magnetic field is present. One could then fall into the black hole, and the other could fall out and conservation of momentum and such would be fulfilled. Kind of like what happened to Broadhead in Gateway. I have heard of another method for "evaporating" a black hole. It involves Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. Under certain circumstances, the matter of a black hole could find itself outside of the Event Horizon, because of uncertainty. I'm not real up-to-date on this method, so don't flame me. Brett (Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 86 21:31:22 GMT From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Doomsday Effect and Black holes From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> >> ... Black holes *may* expel their mass as Hawking Radiation, by >>means of pair production and subsequent capture of one of the >>quanta.... > >This sounds very plausible. In pair production, a gamma photon >"decays" into an electron and a positron that will move in opposite >directions, if a magnetic field is present. One could then fall >into the black hole, and the other could fall out and conservation >of momentum and such would be fulfilled. Kind of like what >happened to Broadhead in Gateway. Right, as I understand it. BTW, what's this about Broadhead? I don't remember that! >I have heard of another method for "evaporating" a black hole. It >involves Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. Under certain >circumstances, the matter of a black hole could find itself outside >of the Event Horizon, because of uncertainty. I'm not real >up-to-date on this method, so don't flame me. Yeah, it's called "tunneling"; it's been shown to happen to electrons in a electro-magnetic well that they otherwise have _no_right_ getting out of. kaufman@orion.arpa kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Aug 86 12:03:53 -0800 From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU> To: Randy Goldberg <goldberg_4b@h-sc4.harvard.edu> Subject: Re: Sexy SF > Have we all forgotten that master of Fantasy art-work, Boris > Vallego? It seems to me that a _HELL_ of a lot of his work was > pretty risque, no? No, I haven't forgotten him, but I haven't given up hope, either. I won't argue his mastery of the skill, but I don't care for mass-produced pictures of scantily clad women with a sword-bearing pile of bronzed muscles standing over her to protect her from some threat depicted in the background. Too many people do this kind of work (even on the sides of vans!): I often suspect that Vallego is distinguished only in that he was one of the first, or that he has churned out more than anyone else (doesn't he ever get tired of redrawing the same picture?). Although I couldn't do it, I consider it more mechanics than art. I'm not saying it's garbage: there is definitely a popular type of adventure/fantasy book for which this is good cover material; I just don't call anything art which requires minimal skill and no originality. To the subject at hand, though, I wouldn't call his work risque. There is a definite minimum limit to the clothing, which I believe would be (barely) acceptable even on american television, and the scenes depicted are generally not sexy in nature unless you consider the implied reward the hero will get later. The extraordinary proportions of the women (and men) only add a sense of fantasy to the pictures; they (and their choice of clothing on a battlefield) are too unreal to be erotic. Jim ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Aug 86 0955-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #247 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 12 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 247 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Aug 86 15:34:12 GMT From: dartvax!tedi@caip.rutgers.edu (Edward M. Ives) Subject: ALIENS sequel: my theory Even though Sigourney Weaver has said that she won't do a sequel, you never know; money talks. In which case, here is my stupid theory on the plot: A.) The android took off near the end of ALIENS, only to return just in the nick of time to pick up Ripley. Most explanations on the net seem rather contrived. The android said "I had to give such-and-such (the marine) a shot to knock him out." Sure. B.) Remember STII-TWOK? REMEMBER Spock saying"REMEMBER" to Bones? usually when there is something in a well-thought-out movie that seems to have nothing to do with the plot, it is a red flag for the sequel idea (examples anyone?) C.) The Android works for THE COMPANY. He's governed by Ives' four laws of Robotics (identical to Asimov's except there is a zeroth law which takes precedent over all others: "A robot shall increase the company's profit" Conclusion: The android took off so that he could get the marine IMPREGNATED with an alien fetus. That's why he's knocked out-so he won't tell (or maybe so he wouldn't notice). Note that his face w wrappings seemed a little more heavy (possibly covering damage caused when the android removed the face-hugger - don't forget, the android spent a lot of time studying them. Maybe he knows how to neck-pinch them or something. To paraphrase Watson and Crick somewhat: "It has not escaped our attention that this analysis of the plot structure implies a method of further reproduction for the ALIENS" Ted Ives {harvard,astrovax}!dartvax!tedi tedi@dartvax.CSNET-RELAY ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 86 13:08:42 GMT From: jhunix!ins_apmj@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick M Juola) Subject: Re: ALIENS (intelligence and training of aliens) joel@peora.UUCP (Joel Upchurch) writes: >One thing that has bothered me is that even if the aliens are >intelligent, where do they get the training to realize those >facilities? > >I just thought of another hypothesis. Maybe the aliens are able to >absorb RNA from their hosts. That was an alien might incorporate >some of the knowledge and skills of their host, although it might >take some time to put this information into some usable order. You're assuming that all life is based on DNA/RNA. I'd be leery of making that assumption, especially since with all that acid floating around in the aliens' bodies, it'd have to be awfully sturdy RNA (do they make RNA molecules with hairy chests and shoulders like gorillas?) I still think the aliens are made out of Teflon.... Pat Juola Hopkins Maths {seismo!umcp-cs|ihnp4!whuxcc|allegra!hopkins}!jhunix!ins_apmj ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 86 12:24:20 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints From: voder!kevin (Kevin Thompson) > My impression is that FTL travel is not possible in the world > of 'Alien', I felt that this 'realism' made the story more > interesting.... Considering that in the first film, Lambert clearly and specificly states that they had 10 months to go (and other dialogue from just after they wake up indicates that Earth was their destination), it's safe to assume that they have FTL capability. Otherwise, the "planet of the eggs" (to coin a phrase) would have to have been in our own solar system. It's a lot longer than 10 months to our nearest stellar neighbor, even at *near* lightspeed. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 86 21:08:27 GMT From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Alien Sensory Apparatus and Communication daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes: >As far as how the aliens know something, that's a reasonable >question. As other people have stated, the aliens have got some >alien sort of sensing technique. call it organic sensors or >clairvoyance or whatever. but aliens seem to KNOW things. The question of how the Aliens communicate has been gone over several times and everyone keeps coming up with telepathy and ESP. Dear friends, our closest analogues to the Aliens on Earth are Ants, Termites, and Wasps. Wasps often use the same reproductive tricks that the Aliens use: laying eggs in or near a paralyzed host which is then eaten alive by the larva. Termites have the same nest-building behaviour, as do many kinds of ants. Some species of termite and ant have caustic or acidic defensive weaponry. All of these insect species ARE KNOWN TO communicate (albeit simplistically) by pheromones. Pheromones, if you aren't familiar with them, are aromatic molecules which can be detected by smell-organs for up to several hundred miles. Experiments with moth sex pheromones have shown that the molecules released in a lab can diffuse to over 30 miles away in less than 10 minutes. There's no need for telepathy, if the buggies have properly keen sense of smell. AND the strong increase in pheromone levels given off by an excited (or terrified) host creature could easily be the thing that attracts face huggers. My personal speculation on how the aliens LEARN things is that when they eat the brains of their hosts, they manage to decode the RNA-encoded information and assimilate it, eventually. Truly horrid thought: the Aliens have the "minds" and personalities of their hosts, filtered through the overriding instinctual breed-and-feed program of the alien mind. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 86 18:07:44 GMT From: tekirl!donch@caip.rutgers.edu (Don Chitwood) Subject: Re: Aliens (Nightmare Sequence) Don't forget that a chief purpose served by the beginning "nightmare" sequence was to forge a link with the original movie without resorting to replays. The scene did a marvelous job of bringing forward the horror of her experience while giving us a tantalizing but incomplete vision of "something's nasty here!" Don Chitwood Tektronix, Inc. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 86 21:55:38 GMT From: davidc@umd5 (David Conrad) Subject: Re: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes: >> From: voder!kevin (Kevin Thompson) >> My impression is that FTL travel is not possible in the world >> of 'Alien', I felt that this 'realism' made the story more >> interesting.... > >Considering that in the first film, Lambert clearly and specificly >states that they had 10 months to go (and other dialogue from just >after they wake up indicates that Earth was their destination), >it's safe to assume that they have FTL capability. Otherwise, the >"planet of the eggs" (to coin a phrase) would have to have been in >our own solar system. It's a lot longer than 10 months to our >nearest stellar neighbor, even at *near* lightspeed. The ten months might have been subjective time, not objective observer time (i.e. time dilation effects at near light speed). Just thought I'd throw that in, not that I believe it. In the book 'Alien', many references are made to traveling in hyperspace, but I don't remember if they made it to the screen. David Conrad University of Maryland Computer Science Center, Systems PC TCP/IP Group arpa: davidc@umd5.umd.edu bitnet: conradd@umdd ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 86 22:30:56 GMT From: davidc@umd5 (David Conrad) Subject: Re: ALIENS sequel: my theory tedi@dartvax.UUCP (Edward M. Ives) writes: >Even though Sigourney Weaver has said that she won't do a sequel, >you never know; money talks. I remember reading somewhere (the rag Starlog, maybe) that after the release of ALIEN, Sigourney Weaver said she wouldn't do a sequel because sequels aren't as good as the original or somesuch. Either money does talk or she was impressed enough with the script for ALIENS to do the sequel anyway. > C.) The Android works for THE COMPANY. I thought Bishop was a non-com member of the Space Marines >Conclusion: The android took off so that he could get the marine >IMPREGNATED with an alien fetus. I agree, it seems to be the most obvious hook for the sequel. If they don't use Hicks as the means to generate ALIEN'S UGLY SISTER or something then they'd have to go back to the planet (maybe there were other atmosphere converters and the company is still interested in the planet as a colony?) >Maybe he knows how to neck-pinch them or something. Since Bishop is an 'artificial person', the face hugger would no more attack him than it would a dishwasher. David Conrad University of Maryland Computer Science Center, Systems PC TCP/IP Group arpa: davidc@umd5.umd.edu bitnet: conradd@umdd ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 86 01:32:25 GMT From: umcp-cs!tewok@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Morrison) Subject: Re: ALIENS sequel: my theory davidc@umd5.umd.edu (David Conrad) writes: >> C.) The Android works for THE COMPANY. > >I thought Bishop was a non-com member of the Space Marines Has it occurred to anyone else that maybe The Company manufactures androids as well as atmosphere converters? Just because it may be a member of the Colonial Marines doesn't mean they built it. Wayne Morrison Parallel Computation Lab University of Maryland (301)454-7690 ARPA: tewok@brillig UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!tewok ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 86 03:42:00 GMT From: chapman@calder.Berkeley.EDU (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #229 From: crash!pnet01!bnw@nosc.ARPA (Bruce N. Wheelock) >hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison) replies: >>First question: landing on automatic under ideal conditions is >>different from landing under nasty weather with ionization from >>atmospheric muck. > > The United States Navy is able to land an F-14 Tomcat on the >flight deck of an aircraft carrier, at night and at sea, by remote >control. We've had this ability for some years now. These are not >ideal conditions. The objection that remote landing ability should >be markedly better by the time "Aliens" takes place seems valid to >me. Whoa!! Can you give a reference for that? Admittedly, I don't follow Naval aviation as close as I do Air Force aviation (and neither as closely as I did a few years ago), but I don't remember seeing mention of the success of any project of this sort. Certainly research into such areas is ongoing, but I don't beleive it's currently feasible. If it were, we wouldn't be losing several planes and pilots per cruise because of botched approaches. I suppose you COULD consider the way carrier landings ARE done (basicly, the pilot does EXACTLY what the LSO (landing signals officer; they dude on the deck calling the shots) tells him, and ignores whatever his own skills and instincts tell him) as a sort of "remote control", but there is one crucial difference: the way things are done now, the one option the pilot DOES have is to abort the landing. Brent Chapman chapman@calder.berkeley.edu ucbvax!calder!chapman ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 86 07:59:39 GMT From: mudie@merlin.Berkeley.EDU (David C Mudie) Subject: Re: ALIENS sequel: my theory davidc@umd5.umd.edu (David Conrad) writes: >tedi@dartvax.UUCP (Edward M. Ives) writes: >>Conclusion: The android took off so that he could get the marine >>IMPREGNATED with an alien fetus. > >I agree, it seems to be the most obvious hook for the sequel. If there's gonna be sequel, Hicks will be the vehicle, but I don't think we should lay the blame on Bishop. In "Alien", the face-hugger stayed on Kane for quite a while ( hours? days? ) before dropping off. Bishop was alone with Hicks for about fifteen minutes max, and that just doesn't seem like nearly enough time to find a face-hugger, get Hicks impregnated, and then get the critter off before picking up Ripley. On the other hand, remember who was taking care of Hicks in the Med-lab? The Company scumbag whisked him off as soon as he was brought in, and it was quite a while until we saw Hicks again -- with his new bandages. Perhaps Hicks was impregnated then, and the attack on Ripley and Newt was just Scumbag's attempt to avoid putting all his eggs in one brisket... uh, basket. David C Mudie 2416 Stuart Berkeley CA 94705 mudie@merlin.Berkeley.EDU ...ucbvax!merlin!mudie ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 86 01:39:54 GMT From: voder!kevin@caip.rutgers.edu (The Last Bugfighter) Subject: Re: Alien Sensory Apparatus and Communication hutch@hammer.UUCP (Stephen Hutchison) writes: >daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes: >>As far as how the aliens know something, that's a reasonable >>question. As other people have stated, the aliens have got some >>alien sort of sensing technique. call it organic sensors or >>clairvoyance or whatever. but aliens seem to KNOW things. > >The question of how the Aliens communicate has been gone over >several times and everyone keeps coming up with telepathy and ESP. Why not ultrasonic sound? The Aliens have no eyes, not only are none visable but there was an article in I believe Starlog magazine when 'Alien' originaly came out in which the designer of the creature said that he felt the lack of visable eyes increased the 'alieness' of the creature. So why not an extremely efficient echo-location system such as whales use? Tests with dolphins have shown that not only is their echo-location extremely sensitive but has the added advantage of being able to get beneath the surface of most objects, particularly living matter, sort of a living ultra-sound scan. This would be an added advantage in an alien determining the suitability of an animal as a host. The only drawback to ultrasonic sensing/communication is limited range, a human can see a heck of a lot farther than his voice could carry. But if I recall correctly (and I'm not sure I do), I believe that whale songs can be heard some ten miles from the singer under ideal conditons. Of course if the aliens live exclusivly in nests long range may not be a necessity. The shape of the head of the alien is even simular to that of a dolphin with the large, broad, rounded forhead. When Ripley discovers herself in the queen's nest and the two other aliens appear in doorways the queen merely 'glances' in their direction and they back off, communicating with ultrasonic sound seems more realistic than telepathy. But unless the creator of Alien ever publishes a care and maintenance manual for the creature it's all just speculation. Kevin Thompson {ucbvax,pyramid,nsc}!voder!kevin ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Aug 86 1038-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #248 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 12 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 248 Today's Topics: Books - Perry, Films - Silent Running, Television - Star Trek & SF TV & The Flight of Dragons (8 msgs), Time Travel & Nuclear Theory ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Aug 86 05:51:46 GMT From: li@uw-vlsi.ARPA (Phyllis Li) Subject: Re: The Matador Trilogy BROCK%sc.intel.com@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA writes: >In reference to Steve Perry's Matador trilogy, would anyone happen >to know if Sumito is a product of the Author's imagination, or >something borrowed from Real Life? From the description that he gives it might be a long-time derivative of the Chinese martial Art called Tai Chi, which is dance like, improves balance, develops *chi*, and is an extremely powerful martial art once it is mastered; however, on the average, it takes some number of years to master although practice in other martial arts usually makes it easier. From my beginning efforts in it I found that my fencing helped; but also each movement had to be taught. From looking at a number of Tai Chi books that only gave the intermediate postions of several forms I can see how difficult it would be to get from one to the other without instruction. If I were only given the ending foot postions on some of the advanced forms I would think it completely impossible to get from step A to step B. Liralen Li USENET: ihnp4!akgua!sb6!fluke!uw-vlsi!li ARPA: li@uw-vlsi.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 86 13:31:43 GMT From: watmath!mwtilden@caip.rutgers.edu (M.W. Tilden, Hardware) Subject: Re: Silent Running jay@ethos.UUCP (Jay Denebeim) writes: > Now, I'm not absolutely certain of this, but I seem to recall >that the person who played R2D2 was also in Huey, Duey, or Louie. >And, yeah, they did have more class than R2D2 did. In 1970 I remember seeing a 'making of' show that gave details on the soon-to- be-released movie Silent Running. The drones were played by teenagers who had no legs and had spent their life walking on their hands. As a matter of interest, Duey was played by a pholidimide (sp?) child with almost no lower torso at all. Huey was played by a teenage boy who had lost his legs in a train accident and No.3 was, I think, played by a girl with a similar affliction. If you think of the walking mechanics of the drones as compared to thier size, you can see that there is just no other way that they could have done it. No small-person could possibly have been able to bend his legs like that. As for class, they had it all. I can't think of any sci-fi robot ever that even came close to their charm. I was only sorry the movie was not popular enough to warrent plastic model kits of the ship (VALLEY FORGE) and the drones. Mark Tilden M.F.C.F Design Lab. Un. of Waterloo. Canada, N2L-3G1 work: (519)-885-1211 ext.2457, home: 888-7111 UUCP: ..!{utzoo,decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!watmath!mwtilden ARPA: mwtilden%watmath%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa CSNET: mwtilden%watmath@waterloo.CSNET ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Aug 86 16:26:49 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Star Trek Series ARGH! Those fools at Paramount! I quote from a UPI report... Plans to beam a new Star Trek series to television screens next year have been grounded, at least temporarily. Fox Broadcasting Company, busy with plans to launch a fourth network, was close to signing a deal with Paramount Television to revive the popular science-fiction series for a March debut. But Paramount, which owns the rights to the show, backed out of the deal. Ironically, what killed the idea for a new series was the popularity of the original series.... Paramount was concerned that the new Star Trek, even without Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock, would hurt the box office for the Star Trek movies as well as syndicated reruns of the TV show. THOSE INCOMPETENT FOOLS! I would quite willingly watch all three! Please, please, people, write to Paramount and let them know of your outrage over their inconsiderateness to Trekkies everywhere. st801179%brownvm.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 9 Aug 86 06:24:53 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com Subject: re: SF-TV programs From: sci!daver (david rickel) > Gold Key used to have a "Space Family Robinson" comic. It seemed > to have roughly the same cast, but a completely different > spaceship. Anybody remember for certain? The comic had a family of just four (father, mother, brother, and sister), aboard Earth Space Station 1. I don't recall just what caused them to be lost in space, but they wandered here and gone. I believe at some point they were given a teleport "drive" which certainly facilitated their journey around space. The only resemblance between the tv show and the comic was the name of the family and the basic situation of being lost. >> THE TIME TUNNEL - two guys zapping through time doing stuff. > > I think Irwin Allen's first. Not nearly as bad as his later > efforts. But I don't remember enough to be too critical. No, it was Allen's third. VOYAGE (1964-1968) was first; SPACE (1965-1968) was second; TUNNEL (1966) was third; GIANTS (1968-1969) was fourth. THE TIME TUNNEL was the best of the four (I've noticed that the less number of years a given show was on, the better it was --- not surprising, I suppose). From: felix!billw (Bill Weinberger) >>VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA - I can't remember the names of >>any of the stars, > > You don't remember Richard Basehart?!!!! One of the all time > great deep voices and currently the voice for the elder Micheal > Knight (I never watch Knight Rider). Certainly not currently; Basehart died a year or two ago. > OUTER LIMITS - This may really be from the fifties, but *I* > watched it in the sixties.... No, it was 60's, 1963-1964 to be precise. (n.b. For any nitpickers, all years given above are for television seasons, not calendar years. So when I say 1963-1964, that means the 1963-1964 and 1964-1965 seasons.) --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 86 11:54:18 GMT From: unirot!halloran@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Halloran) Subject: Re: The Flight of Dragons yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) writes: >I recently saw a fantasy film on network TV, titled "The Flight of >Dragons". TV Guide says that the film was based on a novel by >Peter Dickinson (which is also the name of the main character), but >the closing credits listed a story by Gordon Dickson, which I >believe was called "The Dragon and St. George". I would tend to >believe that TV Guide screwed up, but I was not watching the >credits that closely, so perhaps I misread them. > >Does anyone know either the true basis for this movie, or anything >about where the story by Gordon Dickson was published? Missed the movie, so I don't know about the resemblance, but 'The Dragon and St. George' was a short story of Gordy's that became the currently in-print paperback 'The Dragon and the George'. Bob Halloran, Consultant UUCP: topaz!caip!unirot!halloran DDD: (201)251-7514 CSNet/ARPA: unirot!halloran@caip.rutgers.edu ATTmail: RHALLORAN USPS: 19 Culver Ct, Old Bridge NJ 08857 ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 86 16:26:12 GMT From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: The Flight of Dragons The opening credits did, indeed, list Peter Dickinson as the writer (I didn't stick around for the final credits). As to whether this was taken from "The Dragon and the George," I couldn't say (having, much to my dismay, never read the story), but the movie seemed very unDickinsonic (would you prefer, unDickinsonian? ;-) ). kaufman@orion.arpa kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 86 12:02:36 GMT From: jsm@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Jonathan Meltzer) Subject: Re: The Flight of Dragons "The Dragon and The George" by Gordon Dickson was published a few years ago by Del Rey, and is (I believe) still in print. Who is Peter Dickinson? Did Rankin-Bass add material from "The Dragon and the George", or did Dickinson steal Dickson's plot, making a Dickson credit necessary to prevent lawsuits? Inquiring minds want to know. Jon Meltzer Dept. of Modern Languages and Linguistics, Cornell University ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 86 19:30:52 GMT From: ism780c!geoff@caip.rutgers.edu (Geoff Kimbrough) Subject: Re: The Flight of Dragons (mild spoilers) Dickson's novel was titled "The Dragon and the George", I seem to remember it as being pretty funny. I suspect that the makers of TFoD borrowed liberally from (at least) both sources, and were ethical enough (or legally compelled) to credit them. (bravo, btw) I think the part about the paladin's problem WRT having a Dragon as a fellow adventurer comes from Dickson, although in TD&tG it might have been that the conflict was between the dragon and the soul "inhabiting" it, haven't read TD&tG in awhile. Apart from being rather heavy-handed in the message department, I thought TFoD was pretty good for TV fare. Geoffrey Kimbrough Director of Dangerous Activities INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation, Santa Monica California ihnp4!ima!geoff || sdcrdcf!ism780c!geoff || ucla-cs!ism780!geoff ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 86 12:55:44 GMT From: ihlpl!alle@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: The Flight of Dragons > I recently saw a fantasy film on network TV, titled "The Flight of > Dragons". TV Guide says that the film was based on a novel by > Peter Dickinson (which is also the name of the main character), > but the closing credits listed a story by Gordon Dickson, which I > believe was called "The Dragon and St. George". I saw this also and was pleasantly surprised to see that it was a decent adaptation of the Dickson's story "The Dragon and the George". I recently read this book due to it being on the list of funny sf posted in this newsgroup. Allen England ihnp4!ihlpl!alle BTW, the hero's voice was by John Ritter, the wizard by Harry Morgan. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 86 14:52:59 GMT From: ihlpf!soussan@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: The Flight of Dragons There is a book by Gordon Dickson, but I believe it is called _The Dragon and the George_. As I recall, it is either about a person waking up in the body of a dragon or a story of the classic "knights go chasing and killing dragons" type from the dragon's point of view (e.g. the dragon relates how all of these "Georges" keep coming at him full tilt with pointy sticks). I suspect the "science" in the film (i.e. how dragons breathe fire and fly) came from Gordon Dickson's book, but the story of the quest for the crown, etc., was not. Of course, I may be wrong, as it has been a while since I read the story. But it is pretty good, and I would recommend it to all fantasy types. Daniel Soussan @ AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville IL. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 86 16:25:59 GMT From: cbdkc1!blb@caip.rutgers.edu ( Ben Branch 3S315 CB x4790 WSB ) Subject: Re: "The Dragon and St. George" There are indeed two separate and distinct books here. Gordon Dickson has the humorous fantasy "The Dragon and the George," as others have mentioned. Peter Dickinson wrote a coffee-table book (tall, wide, nice pictures) called "The Flight of Dragons" which examined how they might really have existed, and how their flight mechanism (2HCl + Ca -> H2 + CaCl2) would have affected their dietary habits, etc. I didn't see the TV bit so I can't comment on how much it used one or the other sources. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 86 02:03:28 GMT From: voder!kevin@caip.rutgers.edu (The Last Bugfighter) Subject: Re: The Flight of Dragons (original book source) "The Flight Of Dragons" was a large, hard-cover book originaly published in 1979 by Harper & Row Publishers Inc., written by Peter Dickinson. This is not a fantasty story and bears practically no relationship to the animated feature shown on TV. Rather it is a hypothesis on how dragons could have existed. The author assumes that dragons did indeed exist - if so, then how could such a large creature fly? Why was its blood poisonous? Why did they hoard gold, etc...? He then gives his theories and explains them in detail, such as dragons produce their own hydrogen which allows them to fly and breath fire. Also, dragons hoard not so much treasure as gold. Dragon blood, secretions and excrement are highly toxic, even to the dragon if it's laying around in its own waste all the time. But gold is just about impervious to everything, plus it's a relatively soft metal, ideal for a bed as all the toxic wastes simply seep through to the ground. As for silver and jewels? Well... where there's gold there's probably silver so it gets scooped up as well. Besides, it is kinda' pretty. I don't agree with all the suppositions in the book but if you can find a copy it does contain a number of interesting hypothesis. Incidently, the dragons in the animated movie have six limbs, four legs and two wings. I don't think there is such a thing as a six-limbed vertebrate! This means that these dragons either bear no relation to any other mammel, reptile, amphibian, or fish on the planet unless the wings are actually extensions of the rib cage (which they don't appear to be). The only really good representation I've ever seen of a dragon is in Disney's "Dragonslayer" where the front legs are the wings in an arrangement like a bat. The only way it could fly was by climbing something high enough and then jumping off. Kevin Thompson {ucbvax,pyramid,nsc}!voder!kevin ------------------------------ Date: 9 Aug 86 08:01:15 GMT From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott) Subject: Re: Invention origins and backward movement in time From: todd%sarah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM > As soon as one accepts the possibility of any kind of > communication (or movement of intelligence) backward in time, a > number of, or perhaps innumerable, potential paradoxes arise. > Heinlein, of course, has brought up several interesting ones. In > particular, the problem of the origin of an invention sent > backward in time is treated in detail (though not answered) in The > Door Into Summer. Then of course, there's that bit in HitchHiker's Guide to the Galaxy, where a cereal company prints an excerpt from the Encyclopaedia Galactica on the packaging of its product, sends one packet back thru' time and then sues EG for breach of copyright. Tim Abbott ------------------------------ Date: 9 Aug 86 08:38:30 GMT From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott) Subject: Prof. Schweinscheisse strikes again I gotta theory: listen up, and I'll tell yah all about it: Every time a specimen of those wondrous elements capable of causing a nuclear fusion explosion is handled, a small amount of it is lost - a small deposit left on the jaws of a waldo, a little left in the bottom of a test tube, a bit to float off undetected as dust. Now, most of these elements is pretty darned dense, and what happens to discarded heavy elements? Ever heard of a mercury hunt? Well, my doubtless attentive audience, the idea is that it accumulates in the lowest regions of the area's sewers, and may therefore be reclaimed (token sf reference: the delapidated Cambridge in "Timescape"). So what's to stop this happening with our other, glow-in-the-dark heavy elements? Absolutely nuthin'. Can you guess the rest? Give it a few years and what have here: one critical mass. KAAAAAAABBBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMM !!!!!! So, who's first? To my mind it ought to be a university town, or maybe somewhere near an oldish defense establishment, anywhere where radioactive material is handled regularly. How long? Who knows? Makes yah think, dunnit? Sleep well, my little chickadees ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Aug 86 1118-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #249 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 12 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 249 Today's Topics: Books - Recommendations & Baen, Films - Silent Running (2 msgs) & Movie Query, Television - Star Trek (2 msgs) & SF TV (4 msgs), Miscellaneous - SF Erotica & Worldcon Party ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Aug 86 21:37:02 GMT From: ihuxl!gandalf@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Zelaznarii? >It is apparent that among the followers of Roger Zelazny are Steve >Brust (self-admitted in this group) and William Gibson (refs to >Isle of the Dead in Neuromancer and more obscurely in Count Zero; >inspiration from Coils). Now if those three wrote enough to keep me >in fiction I would be very happy. But they don't. So my question: >are there any more authors like these that I might have missed? > >I'm specifically not looking for cyberpunks (as might be guessed >from the fact that Zelazny and Brust have written quite varied >works almost all of which don't fall into that category). I'm >looking for writers whose writing fits in a particular range of >styles that I know I like. I haven't read much Gibson or Brust, but I have read (and enjoyed) almost everything Zelazny has written, so I'll make a few suggestions. Recommendations like this are highly subjective, but I feel that there is enough similarity in either the form and/or the content of the works listed below that you will like them. Because Zelazny's work covers such a wide range I've split up my recommendations into sections relating to specific books. For classic fantasy (with and without a technotwist (Mmm, very tasty :-) like _Changling_ & _Madwand_ (with), the "Amber" books (?), and the "Dilvish" books (w/o) try... The "Morgaine" books by C.J. Cherryh (with) _Gate of Ivrel_, _Well of Shuian_, _Fires of Azeroth_ The "Riddlemaster" books by Patricia A. McKillip (w/o) _The Riddle-Master of Hed_, _Heir of Sea and Fire_, _Harpist in the Wind_ _Godstalk_ by P.C. Hodgell (w/o) The "Black Company" books by Glen Cook (w/o) _The Black Company_, _Shadows Linger_, _The White Rose_ For darker, moodier fantasy along the lines of _Jack of Shadows_ and _This Immortal_ try... _Nifft the Lean_ by Michael Shea The "Dying Earth" books by Jack Vance: _The Dying Earth_, _The Eyes of the Overworld_, _Rhialto the Marvellous_, _Cugel's Saga_ _Black God's Shadow_ by C.L. Moore _The Soul Master_ by Graham Dunstan Martin Some of C.J. Cherryh's more unusual works might also hit the spot. Try _Sunfall_ or _Wave Without a Shore_. For works like _Lord of Light_, _Creatures of Light and Darkness_, and _Eye of Cat_ which are based heavily on (but not bound to) a specific mythology try Julian May's "Saga of Pliocene Exile": _The Many Colored Land_, _The Golden Torc_, _The Non-Born King_, and _The Adversary_. For a retelling of myths try _Asgard_ or _Krishna_ by Nigel Frith For slam-bang action like _Damnation Alley_ or _Today We Choose Faces_ try anything by Keith Laumer. And, finally, for no particular reason (except that they're *good*) try _The Anubis Gates_ by Tim Powers _Midnight at the Well of Souls_ by Jack L. Chalker There are four more books in this Pentology, but you should be able to tell whether or not your going to like them after the first one. Ralph Schurman ...!ihnp4!ihuxl!gandalf ------------------------------ Date: 9 Aug 86 05:03:10 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@caip.rutgers.edu (George Robbins) Subject: Re: The Doomsday Effect: A baaaaaaaad book from Baen So what else is new? Jim Baen is the shlock editor of the season. In some senses this is bad, since he publishes a lot of crap and plays some slimey relabeling/repackaging tricks, but this is certainly nothing new. On the other hand, this presents a weak point where new authors may be able to get something published and get started in the field. ACE books held this distinction for a long time, but at least Baen seems to treat his writers fairly. So if you see something with his name on it, take the time to read a little before you plunk down any money, and be prepared to ignore plenty of typos. George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 86 01:17:28 GMT From: veale@neptune.cs.ucla.edu (Anthony Veale) Subject: Re: Silent Running (M.W. Tilden, Hardware) writes: >In 1970 I remember seeing a 'making of' show that gave details on >the soon-to- be-released movie Silent Running. The drones were >played by teenagers who had no legs and had spent their life >walking on their hands. As a matter of interest, Duey was played >by a pholidimide (sp?) child with almost no lower torso at all. >Huey was played by a teenage boy who had lost his legs in a train >accident and No.3 was, I think, played by a girl with a similar >affliction. I loved those drones! But on the credits there were four names listed as having played the drones. I never could figure out why unless there was a stunt drone. (You know, for the scene where Dern crashes into Huey. Or was it Duey?) (It couldn't have been poor Luey (SP?), since he had been blown off the ship during the ring crossing before he even got named!) Anthony Veale' UCLA Center for Experimental Computer Science ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 86 03:53:54 GMT From: chapman@calder.Berkeley.EDU (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Silent Running mwtilden@watmath.UUCP (M.W. Tilden, Hardware) writes: >In 1970 I remember seeing a 'making of' show that gave details on >the soon-to- be-released movie Silent Running. The drones were >played by teenagers who had no legs and had spent their life >walking on their hands. As a matter of interest, Duey was played >by a pholidimide (sp?) child with almost no lower torso at all. >Huey was played by a teenage boy who had lost his legs in a train >accident and No.3 was, I think, played by a girl with a similar >affliction. I remember seeing this documentary when I was about 6 or 8 years old or so; I had nightmares for MONTHS after that about people getting their legs cut off so they could get into those drone suits... :-) Brent Chapman chapman@calder.berkeley.edu ucbvax!calder!chapman ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 86 03:04:52 GMT From: dan@rsch.wisc.edu (Daniel M. Frank) Subject: Re: Was this movie ever released? yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) writes: >A couple years ago, I remember seeing a trailer for an sf movie >based on an interesting premise. The main idea was that >*something* had caused all of the people in a town (city, state, >country, world???) to act on their impulses without any >inhibitions. > >I believe the title of the movie was something like "Impulse". It's available on video cassette, and stars Meg Tilly and some other people. The title has the word "Impulse" in it, but it escapes me at the moment. Dan Frank ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 86 19:15:55 GMT From: ism780c!geoff@caip.rutgers.edu (Geoff Kimbrough) Subject: Re: Star Trek new characters Someone says: >BTW, I didn't actually mean that ST should grab M*A*S*H's writers; >merely that it could do with a large infusion of the writing skill >that went into M*A*S*H. I think you'll find that if and when that >happens, more people than just devoted Star Trek fans will take a >real interest in continuing the stories. And that would be good >for all of us. Why on earth would any *good* writers do anything on/for TV/Hollywood these days? This is the age of The Director's Movie, The Producer's Movie, The Choreographer's Movie, The Star's Movie, The FX Movie, The Best Boy's Movie (8^). N - epsilon) of the last N films I've seen had almost everything *but* good writing--most of them made money anyway. (I admit that my `N' is not huge, but I don't think it was a skewed sample either.) Geoffrey Kimbrough Director of Dangerous Activities INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation, Santa Monica California ihnp4!ima!geoff || sdcrdcf!ism780c!geoff || ucla-cs!ism780!geoff ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 86 17:38:54 GMT From: watvlsi!peregier@caip.rutgers.edu (Phil Regier) Subject: Re: Star Trek (long) This may be blasphemous but I always find it funny that people can claim that a science FICTION movie is ruined by flaws in the science, as opposed to holes in the plot. If you watch Star Trek, you are watching it for entertainment and the writers try to stick to conventional science unless this must be sacrificed for entertainment value. A five year mission would be pretty dull if one did not have faster than light travel :-). In one episode the crew actually went back in time. Both these things go against everything we know about science up to this point. You could say that maybe our theories are wrong and that it is possible to go faster than the speed of light but then that excuse can be used anytime a scientific principle is violated. My opinion (for what it's worth) is that with science fiction, you just suspend your beliefs, accept the premises of the show or book and then enjoy it. Phil ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 86 01:25:17 GMT From: ucdavis!ccdbryan@caip.rutgers.edu (ccdbryan) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs From: ops@ncsc.ARPA (Tharp) >Here are a few science fiction television programs I remember from >my childhood in the sixties. I am not reviewing or recommending >any of these programs, just recalling them from the memory of a >child who yearned to "go out there and do neat stuff." > >THE WILD, WILD WEST - well, maybe not really science fiction but >they had a lot of neat gadgets. I would have to call about a third of the WWW episodes either sf or at least fantasy. I especially remember one of the episodes with the short genius who was always getting away where he had found some kind of midas device. There were quite a few episodes with the likes of giant tuning forks that destroyed homes, etc. that also class in the category of sf. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Aug 86 02:15:10 -0800 From: Jerry Sweet <jsweet@ICS.UCI.EDU> To: Tharp <ops@ncsc.arpa> Subject: Re: SF-TV programs Aargh. I have this incomprehensible compulsion to correct some of the mis-recollections in Tharp's note -- at least the ones I spotted. LOST IN SPACE - Guy Williams played Dr. Robinson, not Guy Madison. The name of the non-descript child actor who played Will Robinson has temporarily slipped my mind, but he had a cameo in the recent Twilight Zone movie, and also (so I'm told) does strange songs in a group called Barnes & Barnes that's featured regularly on the Dr. Demento radio show. The robot was not the famed Robbie, although a Robbie look-alike did appear on one episode. VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA - another Irwin Allen production. Irwin seems to think that computers all have highly volatile explosive charges underneath the front panels. I think VttBotS, LiS, and LotG were all done by Irwin. THE VISITORS - never heard of this one. Isn't that supposed to be The Invaders, starring Roy Thinnes? The only other thing I remember Thinnes doing is a 1969 Gerry Anderson movie about a counter-clock Earth in an orbit diametrically opposed to our own. That movie also starred Herbert Lom (Inspector Dreyfuss of the Pink Panther movies). There was a book by Clifford Simak called "The Visitors," but the aliens in that one were cellulose-devouring floating black monoliths. Anyway, I only remember these shows from syndication in the mid-to-late 70's. A few zillion other SF-Lovers readers will probably fill in the rest. Yes, it's another Stab From the Past... jns ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 86 06:59:00 GMT From: uiucdcsp!hogge@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: SF-TV programs >LOST IN SPACE - or as my father called it "Space Family Robinson". A show I loved to hate. Too bad Smith was such an annoying limp-wrist. As a child I could stand the campy, repetitive special effects but just couldn't swallow (but did every week) Smith's character. But...do you remember the pilot show? Smith was a competent KGB, as I remember him, who appeared intelligent, fearless, and practiced at espionage. I guess his brain melted during lift-off (was it?) when he was roasting outside of the cryogenic chambers. >THE LAND OF THE LOST A very interesting show, capitalizing on the Gilligan's Island formula of characters stranded in a hostile environment. The characters are stuck in a circular universe, which fact is discovered partway into the series. I never saw all the episodes, and I don't know whether or not I saw the last one. Did they ever escape from the Land of the Lost? ------------------------------ Date: 9 Aug 86 23:45:54 GMT From: ihlpg!tainter@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: re: SF-TV programs (It's a GOOD life) > He appeared in two TWILIGHT ZONE episodes (one of which, "It's a > GOOD Life!", was remade in the movie, with Mumy making a cameo > appearance). Was this an adaptation of the short story about a child with mental abilities who "relocates" his community as an infant? Subsequently people have learned never to badmouth anything in their life style for fear he will "correct" it for them. I don't remember a TWEED COAT ZONE episode with that story line? I would like an attribution for that story if any one can toss it out. j.a.tainter ------------------------------ Date: 9 Aug 86 04:51:10 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@caip.rutgers.edu (George Robbins) Subject: Re: SF Erotica ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (e.c.leeper) writes: >In all this discussion of SF erotica, I'm surprised that no one has >mentioned John Norman's "Gor" series. Then again, maybe I'm not. Oh well, why not... I guess I'd have to claim that the GOR books aren't really very good erotica. Much of the sexual content has a rather pointed didactic intent, to support Norman's ideal male/female relation theme. As such, after a certain point, it tends to collapse into mere symbolic actions, lacking much direct impact. This is not to say that Norman doesn't have his moments, especially in some of the eariler books, and from time to time some fine humor and a bit of social commentary, but it's kind of like little kids trying to read through the whole dictionary to find the dirty words. Sharon Green also has some strong moments, and could probably write some very good pornography if she had a good editor and wasn't selling so well. If only she could make her characters interact a little more realisticly and come up with some females that one could respect/admire rather than wish to strangle. By the way has anyone ever talked with these people? Are they truly depraved, or have they just learned that twanging some of the darker cultural fantasy chords is an effective way to make a buck? I'm not sure you can, or would want to, really discuss these books here, there's just too much polarizing and contra-feminist content to permit rational discourse... No, of course I won't admit to having read any of this stuff, or that I might have found anything interesting therin, and yes, I do wonder whether it might have usdesirable effects on young persons who have yet to establish 'adult' social and sexual relationships. But then your average romance novel is a pretty big pile of misleading nonsense too... George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 86 18:12:40 GMT From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: WorldCon Party? I will be attending worldcon, and I'd like to hear about any sf-lovers party that comes around. The concom might be able to give us hints about places to hold such a party -- I'll try and ask. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Aug 86 0811-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #250 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 13 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 250 Today's Topics: Books - DeLint & Wren (2 msgs), Television - Star Trek & SF TV & Twilight Zone & Lost in Space, Miscellaneous - Time Travel (2 msgs) & SF Erotica (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Aug 86 19:23:40 GMT From: umcp-cs!tewok@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Morrison) Subject: Re: Celtic myth books From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> >Also, an unusual combination of celtic myth and American Indian >myth is found in Charles deLint's Moonheart. I enjoyed this book a >lot. deLint has also written another book that seems to be somewhat based on Celtic myth. It is called "The Riddle of the Wren". The above somewhat is rather nebulous because I'm not sure how closely he follows the myths - I only started it yesterday and it's been a while since I read any Celtic mythology. Huorn the Hunter and Cernunnos appear in it. It also has an interesting explanation of standing stones and stone circles. His only other book that I know of ("Mulengro") doesn't involve Celtic myths. It takes place in Canada, as does "Moonheart" and involves gypsies. I enjoyed it and I am looking forward to his next book, whatever it is about. Wayne Morrison Parallel Computation Lab University of Maryland (301)454-7690 ARPA: tewok@brillig UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!tewok ------------------------------ Date: 9 Aug 86 17:49:22 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: The Doomsday Effect: A baaaaaaaad book from Baen > ferguson@glasgow.glasgow.UUCP (Alex Ferguson) >> throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) > [ In which T. Wren ] >>Talks about "antiphotons" as if these were current knowlege. >>Gives them the magic property of causing a black hole to expell >>it's mass. Says Hawking knew all about this from the start. >>Right. > > I haven't read this, and the other described glitches sound fairly > atrocious, but this has a touch of verisimilitude. Black holes > *may* expel their mass as Hawking Radiation, by means of > spontaneous pair-production and subsequent capture of one of the > quanta. Oops, I see I was a little unclear. It was clear from the book that Wren wasn't talking about Hawking radiation per se. He was talking about some magic method of altering the *rate* at which a black hole radiates. As far as I know, the flux of Hawking radiation from a black hole depends only on the surface area of the event horizon and the gravity gradient (strength of tides) at that point. And inventing "antiphotons" is more than a little strange, as photons are distinguished as being the only particle with *no* antiparticle (or, they are their *own* antiparticle, depending on how you look at it). Now granted, I may be a little off above. For example, Hawking radiation likely depends on esoteric properties of pair-production along the event-horizon, and my thus be altered by the local environment as well as the surface area of the EH. Nevertheless, the effect as explained in the book was *clearly* contrary to current notions, and yet was claimed to be in accord with current theory. Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 86 23:24:09 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Getting matter from a black hole bishop@usc-oberon.UUCP (Brian Bishop) writes: >RE: the discussion about black holes expelling mass - I wrote a >paper on the topic two years ago. As I recall, it was Hawking's >idea, and I believe it has been verified, or at least fairly well >accepted. It happens when two particles (matter and antimatter) are >produced near the event horizon of a black hole; the antimatter >gets sucked in (and goes poof!), and the matter escapes - a net >generation of a particle (or energy) from the viewpoint of us >observers. Needless to say, the pairs need to be produced in just >the right configuration for this to happen, but you know >uncertainty (or at least, I thought I did, now I'm not sure...) This may be so, but there's a much easier way, again thanks to Hawking. When you combine quantum theory with relativity, you discover that the event horizon "jumps" between quantum states. Perfectly normal. But some energy that was within the event horizon may now find itself outside the event horizon because of the quantum jump, and may thus escape. Brandon S. Allbery Tridelta Industries, Inc. 7350 Corporate Blvd. Mentor, Ohio 44060 UUCP: decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!tdi2!brandon PHONE: +1 216 974 9210 SYSOP: UNaXcess/ncoast ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1986 19:12 EDT From: Andrew T. Robinson <ANDY%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> Subject: Star Trek From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> >>I'm really surprised to hear all this sentiment about the old ST >>characters being the center of "ST." > >Don't be. I would guess that the majority of people think of Star >Trek as a collection of the most prominent character quirks of its >personalities... I don't believe that at all--Or maybe in the grand scheme of things, the casual watchers of Trek feel this way. As (what I feel is) an honest-to-goodness trekkie, I feel there is a lot more to ST than its original characters. For sure, they did a good job, but I think it was the theme(s) of the orignal series which strike the chord in most of us. Only the most shallow viewers of the series would think of it as no more than the sum of its actors. > But I regretted much more that such a monumental action was taken > in the cause of such a minor film. ST III was the slowest and > least interesting of all three so far. No particular theme, and > no particular contribution; in fact, it seemed primarily to be > diluting ST II's contributions. You're kidding, right? As far as I'm concerned, ST III was the *best* of the three ST movies. Granted, the majority of the responses to the movie said it was too "heavy handed," but I found the movie one of the most moving I have watched. The theme in my mind was obvious: A bond of friendship that is strong enough to cause someone as devoted to duty as Kirk to forsake everything to save his friend. The movie itself revolved around this idea of loyalty, not only between Kirk and Spock but between the other members of the crew and Kirk, and vice versa. >>I think that characters could come and go, as they did in MASH, >>and only make the series stronger. > >Star Trek needs more similarities to M*A*S*H than that. Mostly, it >needs M*A*S*H's writers. They proved that it is in fact physically >possible for a Hollywood series to have fine writing. Star Trek >occasionally rose above the masses (of Hollywood junk) in its >writing: but that wasn't difficult. Frequently it didn't. The *last* thing ST needs is *any* similarity to M*A*S*H or *any* M*A*S*H writers. MASH started out as a reasonably good commedy and then rapidly degenerated into a forum for Alan Alda's political felgercarb (to the point where the *real* "Hawkeye Pierce", who wrote the original M*A*S*H novel, completely and pubically disassociated himself with the TV series and most of what it had to say). Star Trek had its problems, but I would still claim that it is the best series of its kind ever televised. >My feeling at this point is that ST has run its course. It's >possible to run a good thing right into the ground, and I can see >that coming for ST. Unless they can do something significant with >a new series, I wouldn't even bother trying. I think doing something significant is the whole point. I don't think too many producers set out to produce a mediocre series. I, as a life-long Star Trek fan, am awaiting the new ST with anticipation and a few reservations. To pass judgement at this point as to whether ST has run its course is premature. Andy Robinson University of Maine ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 86 00:04:30 GMT From: ihlpg!tainter@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: SF-TV programs > "Yes, I can duplicate the substance. Will 5000 gallons be > sufficient?" etc. [If you haven't seen FORBIDDEN PLANET, Robbie > says this to the cook. Hey, anyone remember who played the cook? > How about the Doc? I've forgotten,...] Oh! You ment played. Well, I don't know his name but he becomes the white sidekick on Police Woman later in his career. j.a.tainter ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 86 14:57:53 GMT From: goldberg_4b@h-sc4.harvard.edu (Randy Goldberg) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs (It's a GOOD life) tainter@ihlpg.UUCP writes: >> He appeared in two TWILIGHT ZONE episodes (one of which, "It's a >> GOOD Life!", was remade in the movie, with Mumy making a cameo >> appearance). > >Was this an adaptation of the short story about a child with mental >abilities who "relocates" his community as an infant? Subsequently >people have learned never to badmouth anything in their life style >for fear he will "correct" it for them. I don't remember a TWEED >COAT ZONE episode with that story line? I would like an >attribution for that story if any one can toss it out. The original story was "It's a _Good_ Life" by Jerome Bixby. In it, our (hero? villain?) .. the kid was more than an infant when these events occured. How old? I don't remember. Not only WAS the a TZ episode based on it, the story was "modernized" a bit and remade in the TZ movie (yes, I know it was bad!). Hope this helps! - Live Long and Prosper! goldberg_4b@h-sc4.UUCP USmail: Randy Goldberg 157-58 17th Avenue Whitestone NY 11357-3252 (E-mail only good until 16 Aug 1986) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 86 03:16:36 EDT From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU> Subject: Lost in Space To: ops@NCSC.ARPA From: ops@ncsc.ARPA (Tharp) >LOST IN SPACE - ... and the obligatory whiz kid Robinson (some >non- discript child actor). Billy Mummy. > Of course there was the robot, Robbie, ... The robot was simply "the robot". Robbie is a character from the 1956 movie _Forbidden Planet_ (he did make a guest appearance in one episode of _Lost in Space_). >The bad guy was a scientist who got trapped on the Robinson's >flying saucer (really) while trying to sabotage it and caused it to >change course and send the courageous Robinsons across the universe >and into endless adventure. Doctor Zachary Smith. I forget who played him. He was not a scientist, but a foreign enemy agent. I think he was also a medical doctor. I recall having seen a _Lost in Space_ episode guide out there on the net somewhere. Does anyone recall where it is? Keith [Moderator's Note: The episode guide is available here at Rutgers via the ANONYMOUS login of FTP. Those without FTP access cannot get the guide. The file is T:<SFL>LOST-IN-SPACE.GUIDE] ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 86 19:47:11 GMT From: mcvax!lambert@caip.rutgers.edu (Lambert Meertens) Subject: Re: An Ane Man Proposes An Inane Experiment lambert@boring.uucp (I) wrote: > Is there a theoretical lower bound to the energy required to > transmit one bit? If so, how much is it? cpf@batcomputer.UUCP (Courtenay Footman) responds (for which my thanks): > kT, where k is Boltzman's constant and T is the absolute > temperature of the system. Now, if we are willing to observe with an inaccuracy of DELTA(E) = 0.5kT, that is enough to catch the bit. By Heisenberg, we have DELTA(E)*DELTA(t) >= h/(2pi). So this allows us to vary t *in any direction* by an amount of (h/(2pi))/(0.5kT) without violating known physical laws like conservation of energy. Plugging in the values for k and h, we get 6.626E-34 Js 0.5 ------------ * ------------- = 3.819E-12 s/T 2*3.14159265 1.381E-23 J T This means to backreceive information by as little as 1 second in time we need an absolute temperature of less than 4E-12 degrees Kelvin. This kind of chills my hope of witnessing time travel during my lifetime (but maybe if I can arrange to be really deep-frozen before I expire) and it sure shows that when time travel becomes feasible, it will *not* be the hottest thing since sliced apples. BTW, the appearance of frost on the De Lorean in BTTF whenever it had will have jumped, if you get what I mean, which is that it popped up in the past, is strongly corroborative evidence of this cryotranstemporal law, really a variant of the uncertainty principle. (Isn't there a slight problem in that Boltzmann statistics don't apply at such extreme temperatures?) Lambert Meertens, CWI, Amsterdam; lambert@mcvax.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 86 13:36:42 GMT From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Time Travel From: berman@vaxa.isi.edu (Richard Berman) > For example, take a small gold coin. Send it 1 second into the > future. (I assume you've solved the problem of displacing the > matter present at the time/place of the coin's appearance). Now > you have two coins. > > So, after you've "time-cloned" the growing pile of coins 16 times, > you get 65,000+ gold coins. Clearly this violates conservation of > mass. If you wait to read my novelette, "The Hephaestus Mission", in ANALOG some day, you'll fully understand why the coin replication trick can't work, and begin to appreciate that so-called time paradoxes are mathematical/philosophical constructs along the lines of the "Zeno Paradox": they sound confusing but are ignored by the laws of the Universe. I'd like your opinion of my theories, once the story is published. arlan ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 86 16:02:38 GMT From: mcvax!lambert@caip.rutgers.edu (Lambert Meertens) Subject: Re: SF Erotica I am sorry if this has been posted before; some articles did not make it here. Strange Bedfellows (edited by Thomas N. Scortia, Pocket Books 671-77794-7, 1974, earlier published by Random House) is a collection of short stories in whose plots sexuality is pivotal. Lambert Meertens, CWI, Amsterdam; lambert@mcvax.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 9 Aug 86 19:27:49 GMT From: umcp-cs!tewok@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Morrison) Subject: Re: Sexy SF From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU> > Have we all forgotten that master of Fantasy art-work, Boris > Vallego? It seems to me that a _HELL_ of a lot of his work was > pretty risque, no? I haven't forgotten him, but I thought his name was Vallejo. Wayne Morrison Parallel Computation Lab University of Maryland (301)454-7690 ARPA: tewok@brillig UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!tewok ------------------------------ Date: 9 Aug 86 05:53:39 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@caip.rutgers.edu (George Robbins) Subject: Yet more *SEXY* SF Some Summer Lands - Jane Gaskell (sp?) A very mixed book, but some pretty powerful coming-of-age stuff involving a young but wise, mostly human girl. Actually part of a series beginning with 'The Serpent', which is recently back in print - conditionally recommended to those who might be interested. Night of Power - Spider Robinson Some very itimate stuff involving female point of view from a male author, disquieting becuase you're trying figure out how much is real and how much is male fantasy. Also suffers since Spider still hasn't found his own voice in Novel length - Heinlein in one ear, Sturgeon in the other. Silestra Series - Janet Morris Also back in print, this series was originally crippled by some of the worst cover copy ever. Actually quite quite a bit more interesting and varied than the original sex queen covers would have led one to believe. Maia - oops...you know the Watership Down guy... Here's a problem - If you perhaps liked Watership Down, then be warned that this is something different - If you tossed back Watership Down after figuring out that it wasn't about some kind of water ship, but had something to do with animals, ditto. Anyway, I really enjoyed this, especially the contrasts between fantasy and mundane reality; and between human actions and absurdity. Perhaps the fairy tale of the year. George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Aug 86 0851-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #251 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 13 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 251 Today's Topics: Books - Biggle & Delany & Baen Books, Films - Star Trek IV & Howard the Duck, Television - The Visitors & Land of the Lost (2 msgs) & The Twilight Zone, Miscellaneous - SF Erotica & Style in SF & Amateur Writer's List & Space Exploration (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Aug 86 19:29:50 GMT From: cbdkc1!blb@caip.rutgers.edu ( Ben Branch 3S315 CB x4790 WSB ) Subject: Re: Biggle ... and Bradley Confusion over two similar names? I have in my collection a DAW paperback of Lloyd Biggle, Jr. "The World Menders", copyright 1971. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 86 17:32:29 GMT From: pur-ee!pasm@caip.rutgers.edu (PASM Parallel Processing From: Laboratory) Subject: More on Delany I too was curious about why the second part of _Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand_ was taking so long to be published. According to my usually reliable local independent bookstore, the novel kept getting delayed and may have been cancelled at least temporarily (my memory is unreliable here.) Got a copy of Seth McAvoy's book on Delany a month ago as a gift. It's valuable for the scraps of interviews and biographical details, such as Delany's dyslexia, relationship with Marilyn Hacker and Bobby Folsom, and sexuality. McAvoy also tries to make some intelligent remarks about Delany's books, but here he fails to add anything new. Like most critical studies of Delany's works, there's an overemphasis on the early books and only superficial coverage of the novels after Dhalgren. McAvoy's book is basically a fan's view of Delany's life and works (so far.) It's kind of shallow but easy to read. (Slusser does a much better job of analyzing the early books, but uses convoluted critical lingo.) Bill Hsu ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 1986 22:41:58 PDT Subject: Baen Books vs. Bookstores From: Tom Galloway <GALLOWAY@B.ISI.EDU> Both Change of Hobbit and Dangerous Visions, two SF specialty bookstores in L.A. have stopped carrying any Baen Books. Nope, this isn't because of Baen's habit of slipping in unannounced reprints. It's due to a recent action of Baen's which hits bookstores directly. In the back of recent Baen Books, there is an ad for the "Baen Book Club". It offers to sell Baen books to readers, in quantities of 10 or more books, at a 50% discount, with Baen paying all postage. There is no upper limit on the number of books, and an order can include multiple copies of one book, or a unique set, as long as at least 10 physical books are ordered. This price is better than is offered to retailers, at least to the smaller specialty stores (I don't know if it beats out the price offered to chains, which may be lower). Thus, both CoH and DV have independently decided to stop carrying books which effectively advertise competition with them for as long as the "book club" exists. Are any other stores also halting sales of Baen Books? Is anyone planning to actually use the book club? Any opinions on the whole thing? tyg ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 86 18:48:43 GMT From: ncoast!bdw@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: ST IV: The Voyage Home The Enterprise crew warp home in their Romulan Bird of Prey; but trouble awaits. They are placed on court martial for insubordination, theft, and the destruction of Planet Genesis. But, bigger problems have also developed during their absence. A fleet of alien craft is surrounding the Earth -- destroying everything that comes near them -- causing general widespread destruction and famine. They keep making one request, over and over: they want to speak to "The Guardians." Who are these "Guardians?" Whales. It seems the whales were placed on Earth a long time ago to keep watch over the human race and our evolution; and make sure we did the right things at the right times. Now, the beings that placed the whales have returned, and they want a progress report. There's only one problem. No more whales. All dead. So, Starfleet Command needs some crew (ahem) to go back in time and fetch a whale. This crew must consist of a captain or admiral -- and a crew -- that has had previous experience with time travel. I wonder who. Kirk, Spock, the basic bridge crew, and a few others (redshirts?) go back in time to 1989, where they have to get a whale, and bring it back so it can tell the aliens that everything's just peachy keen. I have pieced that much together from various rumors; anybody know more? NAME: Bill Wisner UUCP: ..!decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bdw ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 86 11:22:22 GMT From: turtlevax!hamachi@caip.rutgers.edu (Gordon Hamachi) Subject: Howard the (Lame) Duck--Avoid This Crummy Movie! Howard the Duck is the most worthless movie I have seen in a long time. On an ABCDF scale, it gets an F-. Do not see this movie. It is worse than boring. It is bad. Ridiculous. Pointless. Meaningless. Rates at the bottom of the toilet along with other losers such as "Commando", "Rambo", and "Goonies". The newspaper critics panned it. They were too kind. Never before have I ever known so quickly that a movie was going to be such a bad experience. First, the duck costume sucks. It is painfully obvious that there's a midget inside a duck suit. Now I know why they carefully kept Howard's appearance out of any advertising--people would have stayed away in droves. Simply, Howard the duck looks unbelievably bad. His movements are stiff, awkward, and un-ducklike. His facial expressions are plastic in the worst sense. Costume-wise, Howard the Duck is nowhere near the quality of much older critters such as ET, or Yoda. Try something more like Sherry Lewis's "Lambchop", only not nearly so cute. I rate Howard the Duck on a par with the critters in the movie "Critters". The plot is worthless. My 4-year-old nephew (who can't write yet) could have done as good a job at coming up with a plot. A bizarre duck-like creature gets zapped to earth. Weak slapstick comedy on a par with the worst of Saturday Night Live skits as Howard is examined by a "Scientist" who turns out to be a janitor. A lame explanation of how Howard got to Cleveland, like the worst Star Trek reasoning. A disgusting monster. Cheap, gratuitous violence. Trashy special effects, with glowing eyes and lightning bolts spurting out of pointy, claw-like fingernails. A long, loud, boring chase with lots of crashes, like the worst of a whole season of CHiPs reruns. Trash. This is too violent and disgusting to be a child's movie. It is too simple, violent, and disgusting to be an adult's movie. I watched in horror as this poor excuse for a movie unfolded before my eyes. I would have walked out after the first 5 minutes, but I could not believe it could possibly be as bad as it seemed. You think Aliens is scary? Howard the Duck is more scary by far. It is downright frightening to see some of the trash that gets into in movie theaters, and I am not talking about spilled cokes or empty popcorn cartons. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 86 03:44:36 GMT From: hull@glory.dec.com (Al Hull - resident at Ford Motor Credit From: 313-845-2817) Subject: Re: SF-TV There have been numerous references to "The Visitors". I believe you mean the series "V", which starred (I think) Mark Harmon (also in The Beastmaster) and Jane Bader as the ravishing lizard lady. The first season's episodes were quite good, but then seemed to deteriorate like so many other shows. Al Hull Digital Equipment Corp Detroit Field Application Center ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 86 07:42:03 GMT From: mudie@merlin.Berkeley.EDU (David C Mudie) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs hogge@uiucdcsp.UUCP writes: >>THE LAND OF THE LOST >... Did they ever escape from the Land of the Lost? As I recall it, the last episode had the family escaping from the Land ( I think they paddled back up the river they came in on ) just a few moments BEFORE they first entered. Shortly after their departure, we see a familiar rubber raft come sliding down the waterfall, and the people look around bewildered, just like in the opening credits. I think the paradox was explained away to the "time storms" that kept cropping up. So yes, our Saturday-morning friends Marshall, Will, and Holly do return to civilization, but the cycle continues... This is the only show I know of which was able to justify its own reruns... David C Mudie 2416 Stuart Berkeley CA 94705 mudie@merlin.Berkeley.EDU ...ucbvax!merlin!mudie ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 86 14:44:02 GMT From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs Land of the lost was a very interesting show. The ideas presented were thought provoking. They did leave the land, sort of. There was one episode were Enik(sp?) could not return to his home through the time doorway because it was frozen on the sequence of the Marshalls entering the land. To solve this problem, the Marshalls HAD to leave. However a balance had to be maintained, so an equal number of people had to enter. When they left, they also entered.(3 in 3 out). The show ran for quite a few years after that episode so I don't know if you can actually say they left. Interestingly enough, this show had a limited run on NBC saturday afternoons earlier this year. When the show was reviewed in the NY Daily News, the writer referred to it as if it were a brand new show stating that the show had outstanding special effects and such. Sorry if I went on too much here, but I grew up with that show and I still would watch it now. Phil Paone ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 86 18:20:55 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: re: SF-TV programs (It's a GOOD life) There was such a TZ episode (air-date not available right now). It's based on the Jerome Bixby story (if that's what you mean by an attribution), which can be found in: Asimov's TOMORROW'S CHILDREN Crispin's BEST SF FOUR Janifer's MASTER'S CHOICE Pohl's STAR OF STARS Pohl's STAR SF #2 and undoubtedly Greenberg's new anthology of stories upon which TZ episodes were based. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 86 03:46:55 GMT From: hull@glory.dec.com (Al Hull) Subject: re: Sexy SF About ten years ago a paperback novel was published by Grove Press called "Yolanda, the Girl from Erosphere". It wasn't much more than a cheap SF facade for a porno novel. It had some funny sections, but was rather mundane for the most part. Grove Press is now publishing lots of "Victorian" novels of late, all of them penned by "Anonymous". ------------------------------ Date: Mon 11 Aug 86 03:18:20-CDT From: David Gadbois <CGS.GADBOIS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU> Subject: Style in SF (was Blade Runner / DADOES) ubc-cs!andrews@caip.rutgers.edu (Jamie Andrews) writes: > In fact, I find that (in general) I like SF movies a lot > better than I like SF books. I generally find SF books to be bad > writing based on fairly neat ideas, and that's all. Even > "classic" SF has this effect on me (all the Heinlein I've ever > read, and McCaffrey's Pern books are good examples; _Neuromancer_ > is a notable exception). Dick's style is better than most, but he > had some writing habits that annoy me. This is a rather interesting point. Film is definitely more a medium of style; it forces the maker to give more attention to the way his message is conveyed than does writing. Of course, this isn't to say that film necessarily precludes content, or that writing avoids a well-reasoned stylistic approach. But much science fiction _does_ focus on "neat ideas" to the detriment of style. And that's a pity, for the conservative style of all too much science fiction writing tends to numb the reader into an escapist stupor. Blandly written SF quickly becomes boring SF, no matter how "neat" or innovative its ideas are. It's gotten to the point where the magazine Analog, the bastion of conservative SF, is the best cure for insomnia I've found. The old "classics" of science fiction were, for the most part, written in this narcotical style. However, the weight of their ideas sufficed to carry them. Many more provacative ideas yet to be dealt with by SF surely exist, but the means in which they are conveyed must be as fresh as the ideas themselves, lest SF die a dishonorable, stagnant death. Much interesting writing has been done lately, and it should be encouraged. Fortunately, as writers such as Bester and Delany did in the past, we have Gibson, Kessel, Rucker, Shepard (when he's in his Borges mode), Sterling, and Wolfe writing books which transcend a plethora of "neat" ideas to be truely gripping and worthwhile pieces of fiction. Let's not lionize writers who churn out endless flights of fancy; great SF nowadays entails much more than that. The classics of today and tomorrow cannot be merely reprints of those of the past. David Gadbois, cgs.gadbois@R20.UTEXAS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 86 11:07:06 EDT (Mon) From: Rick Genter <rgenter@labs-b.bbn.com> Subject: Amateur Writer's list Whatever happened with the list of amateur writers, exchanging stories for critique, etc.? Rick Genter (617) 497-3848 rgenter@labs-b.bbn.COM (Internet new) rgenter@bbn-labs-b.ARPA (Internet old) linus!rgenter%BBN-LABS-B.ARPA BBN Laboratories Inc. 10 Moulton St. 6/512 Cambridge, MA 02238 ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 86 04:14:05 GMT From: hope!corwin@caip.rutgers.edu (John Kempf) Subject: open letter in Lythande The following open letter was found at the end of the book Lythonde by Marion Zimmer Bradley, buried amongst the advertisements in the back. AN OPEN LETTER TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE Astronauts Francis (Dick) Scobee, Michael Smith, Judy Resnik, Ellison Onizuka, Ronald McNair, Gregory Jarvis, ans Christa McAuliffe understood the risk, undertook the challenge, and in so doing embodied the dreams of us all. Unlike so many of us, they did not take for granted the safety of riding a torch of fire to the stars. For them the risk was real from the beginning. But some are already seizing upon their deaths as proof that America is unready for the challenge of manned space flight. This is the last thing the seven would have wanted. Originally five orbiters were proposed; only four were built. This tragic reduction of the fleet places an added burden on the remaining three. But the production facilities still exist. The assembly line can be reactivated. The experiments designed for the orbiter bay are waiting. We can recover a program which is one of our nation's greatest resources and mankind's proudest achievements. Soon Congress will determine the immediate direction the space program must take. We must place at highest priority the restoration and enhancement of the shuttle fleet and resumption of a full launch schedule. For the seven. In keeping with the spirit of dedication to the future of space exploration and with the deepest respect for their memory, we are asking you to join us in urging the President and the Congress to build a new shuttle orbiter to carry on the work of these seven courageous men and women. As long as their dream lives on, the seven live on in the dream. SUPPORT SPACE EXPLORATION! Write to the President at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington, D.C. 20500. comments? ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 86 20:59:30 GMT From: mazlack@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Lawrence J. Mazlack) Subject: Re: open letter in Lythande Great letter! I suggest that people circulate it. Larry mazlack@ernie.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Aug 86 0920-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #252 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 13 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 252 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 Aug 86 22:11:57 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Tolkien's work as story sources goldberg_4b@h-sc4.harvard.edu (Randy Goldberg) writes: >I recall in one of his biographies, that JRRT once said that he >wished his books (esp. SILMARILLION) to be like a bible, that other >authors might come to for germs of stories, and expand upon them. >I am truly sorry that we have treted Tolkien's work with an undue >amount of reverence, for none has dared to touch them so. That's not *our* fault; ask Dennis McKiernan what happened when he wanted to do a story about the retaking of Moria after the fall of the Balrog... it appears that Chris Tolkien disagrees with his father's ideas. Brandon S. Allbery WORK: Tridelta Industries, Inc. 7350 Corporate Blvd. Mentor, Ohio 44060 PHONE: +1 216 974 9210 UUCP: decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!tdi2!brandon ARPA: ncoast!allbery%case.CSNET@csnet-relay HOME: 6615 Center St. Apt. A1-105 Mentor, Ohio 44060-4101 (216) 781-6201 24 hrs. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 86 15:51:10 GMT From: petrus!purtill@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Purtill) Subject: Re: LOTR > JRRT originally had the idea of "writing a mythology for England," > which, apparently having forgotten the entire corpus of Arthurian > myth, he thought was lacking. In this early attitude, he began > the composition of what he called "THE BOOK OF LOST TALES," the > ms. of which has recently seen print in two volumes. Dan'l > Danehy-Oakes The Arthurian myths are British (i.e., Celtic) not English (i.e., Anglo-Saxon) in origin. Hence Tolkien's lack of interest in them. mark purtill (201) 829-5127 435 south st 2H-307 morristown nj 07960 Arpa: purtill@bellcore.com Uucp: ihnp4!bellcore!purtill ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 86 04:13:20 GMT From: leadsv!curtis@caip.rutgers.edu (John Curtis) Subject: Re: Who was Tom Bombadil? Concerning the recent speculation about the origins of Ungoliant, Tom Bombadil, etc: In the chapter "The White Rider", where Gandalf describes his fight with the Balrog, he states that after they hit the bottom of the abyss, he pursued the Balrog through very deep and dark passages. He says something along the lines of: "Those tunnels were not made by Dwarves, Gimli son of Gloin. Far beneath the nethermost tunnels of Moria the Earth is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he." Older than one of the Ainur! Now perhaps Tolkien might have written this chapter before he formalized his "Creation Story", but I don't see this why the passage can't be taken at face value. Either Illuvatar made some beings BEFORE he created the Ainur (just for practice) ;-) ;-) OR there are some beings in Tolkien's cosmos that were not created by Illuvatar. (Hopefully none of them are as nearly strong as he, as this would make the cosmos a rather unsafe place.) If there are, then there would be an abundant supply of "undefined" intelligences, some benevolent (Bombadil and the River Daughter) and some not quite so nice. (Ungoliant) This would clear the way to have all sorts of unclassifiable and fascinating enigmas to help make Arda a more interesting place. One additional bit: There is also a reference in _The_Hobbit_, when Bilbo was wandering through the goblins' tunnels after being separated from Thorin and Co, about the original owners of the tunnels, who were there before the goblins, still "nosing around in odd corners and slinking about". (The Ainur, for those of you who haven't read _The_Sillmarillion_, are the beings Illuvatar ("The One") made at the start of creation. Some descended to Arda (Earth) and became the Valar and Maiar, whose ranks included such high-powered people as Morgoth, Elbereth, Sauron, and Gandalf.) John B. Curtis {decwrl,dual,ihnp4}!{amdcad!cae780,sun!sunncal}!leadsv!curtis ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 86 18:34:49 GMT From: ubc-cs!andrews@caip.rutgers.edu (Jamie Andrews) Subject: Building on Tolkien's stories I agree that followups to LOTR are probably useless. Tolkien said that he wrote part of a sequel to LOTR and got so disheartened about what was happening in it (little boys in Minas Tirith playing at being orcs, etc.) that he gave it up. However, _The Silmarillion_ has many, many good stories in it that are not accessible to most readers because of the difficulties of reading that style. I would love to see some of them expanded upon and presented in a modern style; there are vast possibilities for expanding on some of the details that JRRT/CJRT left out in _Silm_. As you may have guessed by now... I have been occasionally hacking away at something like this for a number of years: the story of Maeglin (the traitor of Gondolin) from just before his birth to just after his death. Maeglin is a fascinating character who must have gone through great emotional suffering due to the stupidity and pride of people around him, and slowly turns into a very bitter and evil character because of it -- at least that's one way of expanding upon that story. The biggest problem with this is trying to get inside the Elvish mind and understand what the Elvish attitude to life and death is. If anyone has seen any presentations of _Silm_ stories which tackle this, I would be very interested in getting my hands on them. So, summary: I think JRRT would have liked to have expanded on many of the stories in _Silm_, but since he can't anymore, I think we can and should do so, if we are careful about how we treat them. Jamie. ...!ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!ubc-cs!andrews ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Aug 86 09:30 MST From: Mandel%bco@MULTICS.MIT.EDU Subject: Names in Tolkien; races of his world and of prehistoric Subject: Europe Comment on the entries from Eskil Block in Vol. 11, issue 219: I don't think you can equate the races of Middle-Earth to any historical races. Tolkien hated allegory "ever since I became old and wary enough to detect its presence," and he made an important distinction between what a reader chooses to read into a story and what an author has chosen to put there. The invading Indo-European speakers, I always thought, were of a higher technological level than their predecessors in the lands: the reverse, if anything, of the situation in M-E, where the Elves welcomed the first Men and taught them lovingly, raising them from their near-barbaric state. What's to be gained, anyway, by such equations? About names: from Letters of J.R.R.Tolkien, #297, pp. 380ff. (notes in double brackets are explanations that I have inserted): "It must be emphasized that this process of invention [of languages] was/is a private enterprise undertaken to give pleasure to myself by giving expression to my personal linguistic 'aesthetic' or taste and its fluctuations. It was largely antecedent to the composing of legends and 'histories' in which these languages could be 'realized'; and the bulk of the nomenclature is constructed from these pre-existing languages, and where the resulting names have analysable meanings (as is usual) these are relevant solely to the fiction with which they are integrated. The 'source', if any provided solely the sound-sequence (or suggestions for its stimulus) and its purport *in the source* is totally irrelevant except in case of Earendil; see below. "Investigators seem commonly to neglect this fundamental point, although sufficient evidence of 'linguistic construction' is provided in the book and in the appendices. It should be obvious that if it is possible to compose fragments of verse in Quenya and Sindarin, those languages (*and* their relations one to another) must have reached a fairly high degree of organization -- though of course, far from completeness, either in vocabulary, or in idiom. It is therefore idle to compare chance-similarities between names made from 'Elvish tongues' and words in exterior 'real' languages, especially if this is supposed to have any bearing on the meaning or ideas in my story. "'Technically' Legolas is a compound (according to rules) of S. laeg 'viridis' fresh and green, and go-lass 'collection of leaves, foliage'. [[viridis is a Latin word with this meaning that JRRT has given as the translation.]] "The name of [the] country [Rohan] obviously cannot be separated from the Sindarin name of the Eorlingas: Rohirrim. Rohan is stated (III 391, 394) to be a later softened form of Rochand. It is derived from Elvish *rokko [[Final vowel long. -- The * is linguistic notation for an unrecorded form, reconstructed from attested evidence.]] 'swift horse for riding' (Q. rokko, S. roch) + a suffix frequent in names of lands. "[In the matter of Moria vs. the Biblical land of Moriah, accent on the "i"] (in my view) you are led astray by a purely fortuitous similarity, more obvious in spelling than speech, which cannot be justified from the real intended significance of my story. "This leads to the matter of 'external' history: the actual way in which I came to light on or choose certain sequences of sound to use as names, *before* they were given a place inside the story. I think, as I said, this is unimportant: the labour involved in my setting out what I know and remember of the process, or in the guess-work of others, would be far greater than the worth of the results. The spoken forms would simply be mere audible forms, and when transferred to the prepared linguistic situation in my story would receive meaning and significance according to that situation, and to the nature of the story told. It would be entirely delusory to refer to the sources of the sound-combinations to discover any meanings overt or hidden. "Rohan is a famous name, from Brittany, borne by an ancient proud and powerful family. I was aware of this, and liked its shape; but I had also (long before) invented the Elvish horse-word, and saw how Rohan could be accommodated to the linguistic situation as a late Sindarin name of the Mark (previously called Calenardhon [[dh here is ASCII for the letter edh, like a curly crossed lowercase d]] 'the (great) green region') after its occupation by horsemen. Nothing in the history of Brittany will throw any light on the Eorlingas. "The most important name in [the area of deriving names from 'real'-language names] is Ea"rendil [[double-dot over the a marks it as a separate syllable from the e]]. This name is in fact (as is obvious) derived from A-S e'arendel [[first e with acute accent = long vowel]]. Aiya Ea"rendil Elenion Ancalima (II 329) 'hail Ea"rendil brightest of Stars' is derived at long remove from E'ala E'arendel engla beorhtast [[hail E'arendel brightest of angels]]. But the name could not be adopted just like that: it had to be accommodated to the Elvish linguistic situation, at the same time as a place for this person was made in legend.... [long discussion of details of inventing languages and legends] "I relate these things because I hope they may interest you,and at the same time reveal how closely linked is linguistic invention and legendary growth and construction. And also possibly convince you that looking around for more or less similar words or names is not in fact very useful even as a source of sounds, and not at all as an explanation of inner meanings and significances. The borrowing, when it occurs (not often) is simply of *sounds* that are then integrated in a new construction; and only in one case Ea"rendil will reference to its source cast any light on the legends or their 'meaning' -- and even in this case the light is little." I hope this puts the kibosh on further wholesale attempts to find meaningful external antecedents for names in Tolkien's story. Somewhere there is also an explicit disavowal that "Gondor" has anything to do with the ancient city of Gondar in Ethiopia, which I think is the "hint of India" you mention. I have, however, discovered one connection myself: in The Tale of Tinu'viel (Book of Lost Tales, Vol. II), Tevildo Prince of Cats, who had all cats subject to him, and who himself was a follower of Melko(r) (earlier name of Morgoth). I see in his name a clear indication of Tybalt, king of cats, a character of folklore. See Romeo & Juliet, III.i,75: Mercutio: Tybalt, you rat-catcher, will you walk? Tybalt: What wouldst thou have with me? Mer: Good King of Cats, nothing but one of your nine lives. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Aug 86 15:57:54 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Tolkien's personal views >I'm afraid I must continue to take exception. Orcs don't symbolise >anything: they are simply Orcs. Likewise Balrogs. I have no idea >what Tolkien's political view are, but I am 100% certain they are >not to be found in LotR. Maybe not in the detailed allegorical forms you address. But it's hard not to see the shadow of the Third Reich in Sauron's evil, and the work is pervaded with the conservative pastoralism common in upper-class Englishmen who have no idea what it actually means to work the land for a living (cf especially the industrialization of the Shire as sponsored by Saruman); in fact there's a very English sense of class-consciousness. I don't think Tolkien was trying to make a point of it; he simply had a narrow view of the real world. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 86 23:55:38 GMT From: mlandau@Diamond.BBN.COM (Matt Landau) Subject: Re: Tolkien's personal views cjh@CCA.CCA.COM writes: >>I have no idea what Tolkien's political view are, but I am 100% >>certain they are not to be found in LotR. > >Maybe not in the detailed allegorical forms you address. But it's >hard not to see the shadow of the Third Reich in Sauron's evil, Well, Tolkien himself pointed out many times (e.g., in both the LotR prefaces and in some of his letters[*]) that the whole framework of Morgoth and Sauron was in mind long before any hint of the Third Reich appeared in Europe. In fact, he goes to great lengths to disavow exactly this connection... >I don't think Tolkien was trying to make a point of it; he simply >had a narrow view of the real world. On the other hand, I agree with you about this. [*] See "Collected Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien" Matt Landau BBN Laboratories, Inc. 10 Moulton Street, Cambridge MA 02238 (617) 497-2429 mlandau@diamond.bbn.com harvard!diamond.bbn.com!mlandau ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Aug 86 0915-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #253 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 19 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 253 Today's Topics: Books - King & Pinnacle Books, Films - Rob Reiner (2 msgs) & SF on Video (2 msgs), Television - Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea & Tripods & The Visitors, Miscellaneous - Time Travel (3 msgs) & Hawking ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Aug 86 15:49:52 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: CARRIE >From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) >> ...The thought of dePalma directing TDM after what he did to >> CARRIE (which is actually a tolerable SF novel, unlike much of his >> later, more formulaic horror)... > >Eh? CARRIE was the only one of King's novels that I consider poorly >written (nice idea, but weak execution). DePalma's film was >infinitely better. I'm not talking about the prose, but about the ideas. Most of King's work contains ritualistic obeisances to traditional horror and to the anti-young conservatism which is probably endemic in his home area; CARRIE doesn't. Furthermore, the book is a treatment of a classic SF question (what happens to someone developing psionic powers) while the movie goes for grossouts and blood-bucket counts. The movie is more successful at what it tries to do, but it tries to do so much less. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 86 18:27:52 EDT From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Pinnacle Books Marty Moore (Mooremj@eglin-vax) writes: >I've been waiting for someone to post these, but nobody has...am I >the only one who's read them? > > The Love Machine (These Lawless Worlds #1), Pinnacle, 1984 > Scales of Justice (These Lawless Worlds #2), Pinnacle, 1984 > >by "Jarrod Comstock". These books are sexy, decently written, have >appealing characters, quite funny (also punny), and generally a >win. #3 and #4 were supposed to come out back in *1984*, but I'm >still waiting...and still wondering who "Comstock" really is. I'm afraid you will be waiting a while... Pinnacle books went out of business. A shame really. I enjoyed their V books which were much better then the ill-fated TV series. Stephen Pearl Pearl@Blue.Rutgers.Edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Aug 86 03:03:44 MDT From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley) Subject: Rob Reiner films King's 'The Body' and Goldman's THE PRINCESS Subject: BRIDE Scanning through the New York Times I noticed that Rob Reiner's latest film STAND BY ME is based on Stephen King's novella 'The Body', from King's DIFFERENT SEASONS collection. I liked the story; the Times panned the movie -- the reviewer thought it was vapid, trite and boring and intimated that the world might have been better off if King had taken shop instead of English in school. Rob Reiner is described as merely clumsy and obvious. Oh well. Has anyone seen the movie? Another column in the same edition of the Times has an interview with Reiner... It mentions that Reiner's next film will be THE PRINCESS BRIDE, based on the William Goldman novel. The columnist doesn't mention the name of the scriptwriter (I sure hope it's Goldman), but the cast is given as Peter Falk, Billy Crystal, Carol Kane, Mandy Patinkin, Christopher Guest, Chris Sarandon, Wallace Shawn and Peter Cook(!). Maybe something good will come of it... Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 86 16:08:20 GMT From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Rob Reiner films King's 'The Body' and Goldman's THE Subject: PRINCESS BRIDE donn@utah-cs.ARPA writes: >Another column in the same edition of the Times has an interview >with Reiner... It mentions that Reiner's next film will be THE >PRINCESS BRIDE, based on the William Goldman novel. The columnist >doesn't That's *S. Morgenstern*. >mention the name of the scriptwriter (I sure hope it's Goldman), >but the cast is given as Peter Falk, Billy Crystal, Carol Kane, >Mandy Patinkin, Christopher Guest, Chris Sarandon, Wallace Shawn >and Peter Cook(!). Maybe something good will come of it... But, who plays who? It could make all the difference! Anyone know? kaufman@orion.arpa kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ Date: Tue 12 Aug 86 10:20:00-PDT From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA> Subject: SciFi Movies on Video Being a longtime reader and a first-time respondent, I guess it is up to me to provide some information on scifi video movies since I also own a video store. The following list is not complete (just started it) but should be enough for a beginning. The list combines science fiction/ science fantasy/fantasy into a single category (so save the flamers for another occasion). No quality rating is provided since all is in the 'eyes of the beholder' but some commentary is provided. (* = personal favorite). Attack of the Killer Tomatoes (camp classic) * Alien Angry Red Planet, The (avail. late August) Aftermath (post N-Holocaust trash) After the Fall of New York (Franco-Italian clone) Andromeda Strain Baby (Disney dinosaur film) * Boy and His Dog, A (post N-Holocaust classic) Brother from Another Planet, The Blademaster (conan-type clone) Brainstorm * Bladerunner * Battlestar Galactica (`movie' and TV episodes) Buck Rogers (Gil Gerald TV episodes) Battle Beyond the Stars (John-Boy and Sybil Danning) * Buckaroo Banzai (a greeting to fellow Blue Blaze Irregulars) * Back to the Future (Michael J. Fox and Lea Thompson) Barbarella (Hanoi Jane's scifi sex kitten film) Beastmaster (conan-clone with Tanya Roberts and Marc Singer("V")) Black Hole, The (Disney) Cocoon Coma Clash of the Titans Cat People (several versions) Clan of the Cave Bear (Darryl Hannah/avail. late August) Close Encounters of the Third Kind - Special Ed. * Conan the Barbarian Conan the Destroyer Deathrace 2000 * Dragonslayer Dune (what could have been but wasn't) Dark Crystal, The (Jim Henson production) Day of the Triffids * Day the Earth Stood Still, The (classic) Deathstalker (Barbi Benton in a T&A conan-type clone) D.A.R.Y.L. Def-Con 4 (post N-Holocaust) Dungeonmaster Empire Strikes Back, The (aka Star Wars V) Earth vs. the Flying Saucers (avail. Sept.) Enemy Mine Escape from New York (John Carpenter's w/Kurt Russell) Escape from the Bronx (Franco-Italian w/no relation to the above) Electric Dreams Eliminators Explorers Firefox (Clint Eastwood as a Russian? Hard to believe) Farenheit 451 Flash Gordon (1980) Flash Gordon (Buster Crabbe) Flesh Gordon (humorous) Fantastic Voyage Forbidden Planet Gamma People, The (avail Sept) Galaxina (Dorothy Stratten - Playmate of the Year "stars") * Ghostbusters Glen and Randa (post N-Holocaust/avail Sept) Godzilla (classic) Godzilla 1985 (definitely non-classic) Highlander (not avail. yet) Hercules (Lou Ferrigno and Sybil Danning) Hercules (Steve Reeves) Hardware Wars and Other Farces Hearts and Armour (Tanya Roberts "stars") Iceman Impulse Ice Pirates Invasion of the Body Snatchers (both versions) * Krull (movie with slayers, Widow of the Web, etc.) Ladyhawke * Last Starfighter, The Lifeforce (fondly known as `Space Vampires') Megaforce Metalstorm: The Destruction of Jared-Syn My Science Project Mad Max Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome * Metropolis (many edited versions available) Navy vs. the Night Monsters (Mamie Van Doren w/Triffid clones) Night of the Comet Neverending Story, The One Million B.C. (Raquel in a fur bikini) Outland (Sean Connery in "High Moon") Philadelphia Experiment, The Quest for Fire Red Sonja * Road Warrior, The (aka Mad Max II) * Return of the Jedi (aka Star Wars VI) Runaway Starcrash (Caroline Munro..."Come on, Stella!!") Saturn 3 (Kirk Douglas and Farrah Fawcett) Splash (Darryl Hannah) SHE (Sandahl Bergman/post N-Holocaust trash) Supergirl Superman I, II, III Stryker (Road Warrior clone) Something Wicked This Way Comes Sword and the Sorcerer, The (Lee Horsley "Matt Houston") Spacehunter: Adventures in the Forbidden Zone Space Raiders (leftovers from Battle Beyond the Stars) Spaceship Star Crystal (avail late Aug - looks like an `Alien'-type film) Scanners * Star Wars (the first, aka Star Wars IV: A New Hope) * Star Trek TMP, II, III (and TV episodes) Sorceress THX 1138 Terminator Thing, The (several versions) Time After Time Time Bandits Time Machine Terminal Man, The Teen Wolf (Michael J. Fox) TRON (Disney computer adventure) 2001: A Space Odyssey 2010 Warriors of the Wasteland (road warrior clone) * Warriors of the Wind (animated) Weird Science (Kelly LeBrock) Wheels of Fire (Lynda Weismeier - playboy centerfold in a road warrior clone) XTRO Yor: Hunter from the Future Zone Troopers Zardoz Stores that specialize in Indian or Filipino tapes will have on occasion copies of `E.T.' but it should be noted that `E.T.' has not been released (X'Mas 1986 ??) so these copies are bootlegs. That's a partial list. I will provide add-ons later. A few others (not really scifi but so what): 2069 - A Sex Odyssey (R-rated German film) Lust in Space (X-rated) Vixanna's Revenge (aka Whore of the Worlds, aka Lust in Space II / X-rated) Ultraflesh (x-rated with Seka) All for now. Walter Chapman: Chapman@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 86 20:51 PDT From: William Daul / McDonnell-Douglas / APD-ASD From: <WBD.MDC@OFFICE-1.ARPA> Subject: Availability of WIZARDS To: videotech@simtel20 Does anyone know if this animated film is on video tape...anyone know of a location in the SF Bay Area? Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Aug 86 14:42:07 edt From: cd0v@andrew.cmu.edu (Chris Durham) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs Cc: ops@ncsc.ARPA, gl02@te ops@ncsc.ARPA writes: >VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA - I can't remember the names of any >of the stars, or any of the stories, but I know my sister watched >this religiously. US Navy nuclear submarine zapping around the >world doing stuff underwater. I watched this program in reruns a few years back when I was in High School. The two main actors were Richard Basehart, who played Admiral Nelson and David Hedison who played Captain Lee Crane I don't know when it first aired, but I do know that the first season (and maybe more) was in black and white. Of course, the earlier episodes were a lot better than the later ones. The name of the submarine was the U.S.S. Seaview, of which Lee Crane was the Captain. If I remember correctly the bridge set of the Seaview changed when they switched to color . aside: (Richard Basehart died last year. One memorable work of Basehart is 'The Brothers Karamatzov' (sp?) , which also starred Wlliam Shatner, I highly recommend this film about five Russian brothers and their trials/tribulations. Shatner plays a Roman Catholic brother.) Chris Durham ARPA: cd0v@andrew.cmu.edu BITNET: CD0V@CMUCCVMA USENET: ...seismo!andrew.cmu.edu!cd0v MAILNET: cd0v%andrew.cmu.edu%te.cc.cmu.edu@Carnegie.Mailnet ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 86 18:28:15 EDT From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: tripods Pete Olpe asks: >Does anyone know if there are plans to make a third season of >Tripods? Or at least a final episode to tie together the loose >ends? Does anyone know who to write to? Thanks. I'm sorry to inform you and all other TRIPODS fans, but Michael Grade (BBC Controller) has cancelled the 3rd season of Tripods. This is the same Michael Grade that cancelled Blakes 7 after putting it on hiatus and put Dr. Who on Hiatus. (With a record low 3 stories! this season.) Stephen Pearl Pearl@Blue.Rutgers.Edu ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 86 13:50:44 GMT From: ihlpf!soussan@caip.rutgers.edu (Soussan) Subject: Re: SF-TV (corrections to actors' names) > There have been numerous references to "The Visitors". I believe > you mean the series "V", which starred (I think) Mark Harmon (also > in The Beastmaster) and This was Marc Singer in both. Mark Harmon is (was?) in St. Elsewhere and does the Coors beer commercials. > Jane Bader as the ravishing lizard lady. The first season's > episodes were quite Jane Badler. Incidentally, Duncan Regehr (who was asked about from the TV show "Wizards and Warriors" was also a lizard person in this show. > good, but then seemed to deteriorate like so many other shows. So true. Daniel Soussan @ AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 86 17:31:33 GMT From: sdcrdcf!markb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar) Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >From: caip!ihnp4!mmm!cipher (Andre Guirard) >>It seems like I've heard a theory to the effect that time travel >>can't exist not because it's theoretically impossible, but because >>the invention of time travel makes it possible to modify the past, >>making time travel never to have been discovered. Knowing how to >>travel in time is an unstable situation. > >I believe this suggestion is due to Larry Niven. I call this the "Fixed Point" theory of why there are no time travelers. The universe recurses until it reachs a fixed point (i.e., a universe where one one gets around to inventing a time machine) Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Aug 86 8:17:56 CDT From: Rich Zellich <zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA> Subject: Re: TIme Travel If you send a gold coin 1 second into the future now you have TWO coins? Pardon me? If you send your gold coin into the future, now you have NO gold coins. When you get 1 second into the future, you have ONE gold coin again. Likewise, if you send your gold coin into the past, YOU have no gold coin, but some lucky schmuck in the past now has one. As stated, there's no difference between moving an object in space or time; when moved, it's simply somewhere [somewhen, if you like] else, not replicated. Actually, sending your coin into the past can be interesting, because you could actually have two coins for a while if you send it to your own location. In a while, you will have to send it back in time again, or it will never have arrived...but now do you still have your original coin? Hmmm... and what happens if you try to prove free will and DON'T send either coin back? Will one of them pop out of existence? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Aug 86 15:45:17 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: time travel >>It seems like I've heard a theory to the effect that time travel >>can't exist not because it's theoretically impossible, but because >>the invention of time travel makes it possible to modify the past, >>making time travel never to have been discovered. Knowing how to >>travel in time is an unstable situation. > >I believe this suggestion is due to Larry Niven. Nope. John Brunner, in TIMES WITHOUT NUMBER; it ends with a soldier of the ]worldwide[ Spanish Empire stuck in present-day Central Park with no way to get home. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 86 17:14:06 GMT From: einode!simon@caip.rutgers.edu (Simon Kenyon) Subject: Re: Re: Doomsday Effect and Black holes Hawking came over to Dublin and gave a talk about his work. As you may or may not know, he has a muscle wasting disease (or is it nerve) anyway, he was rather hard to hear. You could have heard a pin drop in the room. As an aside, on Horizon (a BBC science program - also on PBS) there was a program about Hawking. It showed him dictating maths to his secretary. She was typing it into a terminal. There it was in living colour. EQN. He was using Unix (fanfare of trumpets) Simon Kenyon The National Software Centre, Dublin, IRELAND simon@einode.UUCP +353-1-716255 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Aug 86 0939-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #254 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 19 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 254 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (14 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Aug 86 16:07:36 EDT From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: ALiens Through out the novelisation Aliens, the Aliens were refered to numerous times as Biomechanical. Does this mean that they were originally used as BioWeapons by their creators. Were some references to this (being Biomechanical) deleted from the original movie? Can anyone shed some light? Thanx, Stephen Pearl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 86 19:30 EDT From: Barry Margolin <Margolin@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: Aliens (nightmare sequence) My feeling about the nightmare sequence in Aliens is that it is such an overused plot device that it has lost some of its effect on me. As soon as things started going bad in that scene it was plainly obvious to me that it must just be the "standard Hollywood nightmare" scene. The suspense was lost, and I didn't care what happened, because I knew that it would end with her waking up in a sweat, a nurse would come in and give her an injection, etc. A sequence like that only works if the fact that it is a dream is a surprise. It was obvious to me that if the cat had been impregnated (I hope I'm remembering the dream correctly, viz. that it ended with an alien coming out of the cat) Ripley would have found out long before; contralogical things like this generally only happen in dreams. However, I will admit that it was probably good enough for most people. I don't think the person I saw the movie with had guessed that it was just a dream, as he seemed genuinely surprised when the alien showed up. 30 seconds earlier, though, I had said to myself, "I know what's going on," and just sat back and waited for it to end so that they could get on with the plot. barmar ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 86 10:25:45 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: ALIENS sequel: my theory From: merlin.Berkeley.EDU!mudie (David C Mudie) >>Conclusion: The android took off so that he could get the marine >>IMPREGNATED with an alien fetus. > > If there's gonna be sequel, Hicks will be the vehicle, but I don't > think we should lay the blame on Bishop. In "Alien", the > face-hugger stayed on Kane for quite a while ( hours? days? ) > before dropping off. Bishop was alone with Hicks for about > fifteen minutes max, and that just doesn't seem like nearly enough > time to find a face-hugger, get Hicks impregnated, and then get > the critter off before picking up Ripley. > > On the other hand, remember who was taking care of Hicks in the > Med-lab? The Company scumbag whisked him off as soon as he was > brought in, and it was quite a while until we saw Hicks again -- > with his new bandages. Perhaps Hicks was impregnated then, and > the attack on Ripley and Newt was just Scumbag's attempt to avoid > putting all his eggs in one brisket... uh, basket. I think you've got your sequencing mixed up. Hicks didn't get drasticly injured until after Newt was grabbed, which in turn was after the "Company Scumbag" bought the farm. Up until that time, he was awake and aware. He was still conscious when Ripley left to get Newt. And besides, they still weren't there on Acheron long enough for Hicks (or any of the survivors) to get impregnated and then have the face-huggers fall off. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 02:42:23 GMT From: imsvax!ted@caip.rutgers.edu (Ted Holden) Subject: Flaw in the Alien's physiology Not to take anything away from Alien. The lady in front of me fainted dead and half the people ran out the door when the original Alien scarfed Yaphet Koto; but..... What doesn't ring true is the double set of teeth. Consider the musculature needed to work that long extensible tongue with the inner teeth, and the fact that all of that is perforce in the middle of the poor guy's food passage. Now, in real life, creatures with long tongues like that either suck blood, sip necture, or eat flies, but they DON'T bolt down huge chunks of flesh (which is obviously what the Alien's OUTER teeth are made for), because there isn't room in their throats for such a thing. No wonder the poor guy is mean; he must go to bed every night thinking: "God damn, I'm so hungry, I need a steak or a hamburger, or a roast, or some juicy evolutionist, but NO MORE OF THIS FLOWER NECTURE, please Lord.... ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 19:46:33 GMT From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (T Cox) Subject: Aliens Inside Us >Hicks is alone the with Bishop the whole time that Ripley is >Rambo-izing the nest. Also, Bishop goes as far as giving Hicks a >knock-out shot. Hicks might not even know he was impregnated >(raped?). If Bishop was going to impregnate Kane, why does he need a face-hugger? He's already dissected at least one; mightn't he have gotten a viable, dormant embryo from it? Perhaps he just took of to visit the med lab... >And why didn't she nuke the original space ship??? Ooooh, now here's a good question. We never saw the alien ship from the first movie in THIS movie; we're supposed to forget it. There is opening #2 for a sequel. Anyone want to try to figure out how/why Ripley forgot? Thomas Cox CompuServe: 76317,3121 GEnie: CLIPJOINT UUCP: ...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 22:48:39 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Aliens (more on the remote landing) srt@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU (Scott Turner) writes: >>hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison) > crash!pnet01!bnw@nosc.ARPA (Bruce N. Wheelock) >>>First of all, we could build a ship today that could land near a >>>beacon on automatic. >>First question: landing on automatic under ideal conditions is >>different from landing under nasty weather with ionization from >>atmospheric muck. > The United States Navy is able to land an F-14 Tomcat on the > flight deck of an aircraft carrier, at night and at sea, by remote > control. We've had this ability for some years now. These are > not ideal conditions. The objection that remote landing ability > should be markedly better by the time "Aliens" takes place seems > valid to me. Well, if you'd been paying closer attention, you'd have noted that the landing in the movie *IS* a remotely controlled landing. Scott was claiming that we could now land an *automated* craft, *NOT* a remotely controlled craft, and that therefore the landing in Aliens ought to be totally automated, with no remote pilot. Moreover, the remote landing technology shown in Aliens seems quite a bit advanced over what I'd suspect the Navy has now, at least in terms of miniaturization and ease of setup. If an F-14 can *really* fly *itself* to a safe landing with no remote pilot, and no target beacon, and no *nothing* but visual and inertial information, I'll be prepared to admit that this is a (rather small) plot hole. I will take some convincing that this is currently possible, you understand. Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 23:32:19 GMT From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: Flaw in the Alien's physiology ted@imsvax.UUCP (Ted Holden) writes: >What doesn't ring true is the double set of teeth. Consider the >musculature needed to work that long extinsible tongue with the >inner teeth, and the fact that all of that is perforce in the >middle of the poor guy's food passage. Now, in real life, >creatures with long tongues like that either suck blood, sip >necture, or eat flies, but they DON'T bolt down huge chunks of >flesh (which is obviously what the Alien's OUTER teeth are made >for), because there isn't room in their throats for such a thing. I thought about it when I watched "Aliens" and came to the following conclusions: The outer teeth are used to "cut" resin which is secreted by the Alien. The resin seems to be secreted by the "tongue" but not necessarily past the inner teeth. The flexible tongue allows it to spray resin all over the place (as was done by the one which roped up the pilot's hands as she was reaching for the controls, just before it killed her.) When the alien wants to feed, it feeds like a spider. It punches a hole in the victim and injects digestive fluids, then sucks up the results. The tongue and outer teeth are also useful as weapons for attacking other creatures. Or defense, in the extremely unlikely event that the Bugs are actually a naturally occurring lifeform. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 86 12:47:21 GMT From: enmasse!diana@caip.rutgers.edu (Diana Carroll) Subject: Re: Aliens (nightmare sequence) >My feeling about the nightmare sequence in Aliens is that it is >such an overused plot device that it has lost some of its effect on >me. As soon as things started going bad in that scene it was >plainly obvious to me that it must just be the "standard Hollywood >nightmare" scene. The suspense was lost, and I didn't care what >happened, because I knew that it would end with her waking up in a >sweat, a nurse would come in and give her an injection, etc. A >sequence like that only works if the fact that it is a dream is a >surprise. I agree about that. I also think it was to surrealistic. I would have guessed before I saw everyone here talking about it that that the producers had never intended people to not realize it was a dream. I mean, we've all >seen< what a (birthing?) alien looks like, and that just wasn't it. I thought it was a good scene because it showed Ripley's fear, and how she felt about it. It also was kind of horrifying even if you knew it was a dream, in the way that surrealistic nightmares are scary even when you know you're dreaming. At least I felt that way. (Strangely, that surrealistic nightmare effect scares me more than standard scare techniques -- the Twhilight Zone movie terrified me.) I think the best dream sequence I've ever seen has to be the one in _American Werewolf in London_. Unfortunately, someone warned me about that one, so it didn't scare me too much. Diana Carroll diana@enmasse.UUCP decwrl!decvax!genrad!panda!enmasse!diana ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 03:10:19 GMT From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints boyajian@akov68.dec.com writes: >[...] it's safe to assume that they have FTL capability. >Otherwise, the "planet of the eggs" (to coin a phrase) would have >to have been in our own solar system. It's a lot longer than 10 >months to our nearest stellar neighbor, even at *near* lightspeed. Alpha Centauri is about 4 LY away; to travel this distance in 10 months (ship time) you would have to travel at .9790c. Certainly not unreasonable. To travel 20 LY in 10 months, .99913c. David desJardins ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 05:43:15 GMT From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) boyajian@akov68.dec.com writes: >[...] it's safe to assume that they have FTL capability. >Otherwise, the "planet of the eggs" (to coin a phrase) would have >to have been in our own solar system. It's a lot longer than 10 >months to our nearest stellar neighbor, even at *near* lightspeed. Alpha Centauri is about 4 LY away; you could travel this distance in 10 months (ship time) at a constant speed of .9790c, which is not unreasonable. *But* this assumes instantaneous acceleration and deceleration. To travel 4 LY in 10 months, starting and ending at rest, would require a constant acceleration/deceleration of 8.4g (a good reason for deep-sleep or whatever!). If the thrust were not constant, the peak thrust would of course be even higher. Another calculation: with a 100% efficient rocket drive (e.g. matter to energy conversion powering a laser pointed out the back) the constant-acceleration 4-LY 10-month one-way trip would require a fuel to payload ratio of more than 35:1. This really is the absolute, theoretical limit for a ship powered by onboard fuel. So, at last, I come to the conclusion that jayembee is right; this trip does seem infeasible. Of course, this assumes that I am doing the calculations correctly. I am cross-posting to net.physics in case someone wants to check them. I think I have it right -- it's a relatively simple exercise in special relativity. I should post this kind of calculation to sf-lovers more often. It really gives you a feel for how tremendously difficult interstellar travel would be. David desJardins ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 06:37:14 GMT From: kalash@ingres.Berkeley.EDU.ARPA (Joe Kalash) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) Except if you are accelerating, you have to do general relativity which is MUCH harder. I think (it was always beyond me, I have to rely on badly remembered books) once you have acceleration you lose most if not all of the time dillation. Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 07:14:35 GMT From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) All wrong. I mean, you live under constant 1g acceleration; how much does it affect your clocks and so forth? Why do you think that 9g is suddenly going to cause some huge effect? Special relativity is perfectly adequate for this kind of problem. David desJardins ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 09:12:46 GMT From: rimey@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Ken Rimey) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) In fact, special relativity gives the exactly correct answer for this kind of problem. The time experienced by an astronaut traveling along a path [x(t), y(t), z(t)] through a gravity-free region of spacetime is Integral sqrt(1 - (dx/dt)^2 - (dy/dt)^2 - (dz/dt)^2) dt This is the formula you write in general relativity, and this also the formula you get from time-dilation in special relativity. (I am using identical units for time and distance such that c = 1) Sorry to those who don't know calculus, and sorry to those who do know relativity (including Mr. desJardins). Ken ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 86 07:21:31 GMT From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints diana@enmasse.UUCP (Diana Carroll) writes: > [...] If you travel four light years in under four years, so are >going faster than the speed of light, si'? I hardly thought it was necessary to point this out, but there is this little thing called relativity. The rate at which time elapses on the ship is not the same as the rate at which it is measured by a stationary observer. Obviously if you travel 4 LY, a stationary observer is going to say that it takes at least 4 years. But you can travel this distance in an arbitrarily short period of time, *as measured on the ship*, if you can travel at a speed arbitrarily close to the speed of light. If you don't believe/understand this, take my word for it. Better yet, take some physics classes. You could try to read a book written to explain relativity to the layman -- unfortunately, they are generally pretty bad. David desJardins ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Aug 86 1021-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #255 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 19 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 255 Today's Topics: Books - Dickinson & Robinson & Pseudonyms & Best of Early 1986 & Baen Books, Films - Aliens Original Concept & Howard the Duck & Impulse, Television - Men in Space & Lost in Space (3 msgs) & Flight of the Dragon & The Big Pull & The Twilight Zone & More SF TV Miscellaneous - Black Holes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Aug 86 10:02:54 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Peter Dickinson From: vax1!jsm (Jon Meltzer) > Who is Peter Dickinson? Peter Dickinson is a marvelous writer that you should look up. He's mostly known for his mysteries, especially those about Superintendent James Pibble. One of his mysteries, KING AND JOKER, is at the same time an sf novel (it's set on an alternate Earth). He's also written some fine sf and fantasy like THE BLUE HAWK and THE GREEN GENE. His juvenile sf Changes Trilogy was just recently republished in hardcover in the US. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 86 15:15:32 GMT From: enmasse!diana@caip.rutgers.edu (Diana Carroll) Subject: Re: Yet more *SEXY* SF grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: >Night of Power - Spider Robinson > >Some very itimate stuff involving female point of view from a male >author, disquieting becuase you're trying figure out how much is >real and how much is male fantasy. Also suffers since Spider still >hasn't found his own voice in Novel length - Heinlein in one ear, >Sturgeon in the other. What did you find "sexy" about _Night of Power_? Surely not the prepubescent fantasies of a little girl in the throes of teacher/authority/ superior type crushes. The scene with the Super Glue, maybe? (:-) (I tend to find stories where the heroine is a ten year old girl hardly erotic.) Spider Robinson does have a knack at the intimate though. See the bondage scene in _Mindkiller_ for an example. (Pant, pant :-) Diana Carroll diana@enmasse.UUCP decwrl!decvax!genrad!panda!enmasse!diana ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Aug 86 14:05:03 PDT From: lll-crg!hoptoad!farren (Mike Farren) To: nike!kaufman Subject: Re: Rob Reiner films King's 'The Body' and Goldman's THE Subject: PRINCESS BRIDE SPOILER ALERT! IF you don't already know that S. Morgenstern and William Goldman are one and the same, now you do. If you do, then you did, and I abase myself in apologies. Mike Farren hoptoad!farren ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 86 09:15 EST From: Edison Wong <wongeh%vdsvax@vdsvax.tcp-ip> Subject: Best of early 1986? Is there anyone out there who feels that one book put out in 1986 thus far is clearly a cut above the rest? I need some recommendations for my inchoate 1986 collection for: Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Horror, fiction from none of the previous categories, and overall. Edison Wong wongeh%vdsvax.tcpip@ge-crd.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 86 12:49:47 GMT From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: Baen Books vs. Bookstores I do have an opinion about the Baen Book Club. Most publishers force authors to take a reduced royalty (or even no royalty) on books sold at greater than normal discount. If Baen is doing this, then he's not only hurting bookstores but also writers. If anyone has further information on this practice, or a defence of it, I'd be interested to hear it. Robert J. Sawyer Member, SFWA Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 13 Aug 1986 02:53:26-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Alien, original concept? From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@labs-b.bbn.com> > ...(Incidentally, the original short story, later incorporated > into VOTSB, was "Black Destroyer," published in Astounding with > some neat illos. If you want, Don, I'll look up the issue, unless > Jerry beats me to it.) Well, if you insist, it was July 1939. > BTW, ALIEN was not the first movie to use that plot. The same > idea is the basis of the wretched 1958 picture IT! THE TERROR FROM > BEYOND SPACE, which sometimes appears on TV or as a late movie at > cons. If you like turkeys, it falls into the category "so bad, > it's funny." Well, it's been at least 20 years since I've seen IT! TTFBS, but I always thought it was a great movie when I was a kid. The "ten little Indians" plot was also used suspensefully in a 1966 film, QUEEN OF BLOOD [aka PLANET OF BLOOD]. Other elements of ALIEN came from earlier films as well. An Italian film, PLANET OF THE VAMPIRES [aka DEMON PLANET] (1965) had a scene where the protagonists find a derelict spaceship with the giant skeleton of a pilot. And NIGHT OF THE BLOOD BEAST (1958) had the idea of an alien implanting embryos into a human host. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Filmography is my pastime"> ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 86 06:09:59 GMT From: utastro!wheel@caip.rutgers.edu (Craig Wheeler) Subject: Re: Howard the (Lame) Duck--Avoid This Crummy Movie! Just because YOU didnt like the movie is no reason to go THAT far with chasing people away from it. The script was weak and lots of jokes telegraphed, but if you enjoy the comics or get ready to watch some silly humor its not THAT terrible. In fact, I enjoyed it. I don't suppose you know about the comic in came from, seeing as how you didnt post the review to net.comics. Your post was an excellent example of hotheadedly posting without giving any thought to what you're saying. Sheesh. We need more reviewers who =LIKE= movies. Rob Wheeler ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 86 16:04:54 EDT From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Impulse dan@rsch.wisc.edu (Daniel M. Frank) writes: > It's available on video cassette, and stars Meg Tilly and some >other people. The title has the word "Impulse" in it, but it >escapes me at the moment. The movie will be on Showtime in Sept. For all those without VCRs or good Videostores. Isn't cable wonderful. (Did you know that at one point a few years ago, SHO was considering bringing back Star Trek in much the same format that FOX was trying to do?) Cheers, Stephen Pearl ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 86 17:31:43 GMT From: cfa!mink@caip.rutgers.edu (Doug Mink) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs One show I remember from the very early sixties was "Men Into Space," which was about astronauts going to the moon. My memories of it are hazy--I don't think it was ever rerun--but I seem to remember a fairly realistic lunar base and a lot about the politics of space exploration. Does anyone else remember this one? Doug Mink {ihnp4|seismo}!harvard!cfa!mink mink%cfa.UUCP@harvard.HARVARD.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 86 03:01:26 GMT From: hropus!jrw@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Webb) Subject: Re: Re: SF-TV programs (really Lost In Space) > I seem to remember a BW epsidoe of LIS which was the pilot for the > series. Its been such a long time and even when the show was in > syndication around the NY area about 10 years ago and they never > showed the BW episods which were pretty good. Am I imagining > things or was there an actual pilot episode which delt with > Smith's giving physicals to the crew before sabotaging the > mission? I remember it. It has been a while, and some of the snippets I recall are rather disjointed. For example, I remember that Smith hid in a retracting chair or some such to sabotage the Jupiter II. I definitely remember him conducting the physicals. I think they used parts of the pilot as flashback sequences in one of the very late episodes when someone was giving "our heros" a chance to return to earth. It was during this episode (I think) that everyone came to realize that, had not Smith been on board, the Jupiter II would have crashed into an uncharted asteroid field or something. Oh well, maybe I am off base, but it has been over 12 years since seeing these... Jim Webb ihnp4!houxm!hropus!jrw ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 86 21:50:41 GMT From: imsvax!paul@caip.rutgers.edu (Paul Knight) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs (really Lost In Space) > I seem to remember a BW episode of LIS which was the pilot for the > series. Its been such a long time and even when the show was in > syndication around the NY area about 10 years ago and they never > showed the BW episods which were pretty good. Am I imagining > things or was there an actual pilot episode which delt with > Smith's giving physicals to the crew before sabotaging the > mission? Dr. Smith did not intend to stow away on the ship. He sneaked aboard just before takeoff to sabotage the mission. He was an "enemy agent" under cover as the pre-flight physician for the crew. I believe that he reprogrammed the robot to cause a lot of damage. Most (or maybe all) of the crew was put into suspended animation for the takeoff. One of the kids woke up while Smith was skulking around before takeoff. He explained his presence by saying that he was checking everyone for viruses. He said something like "One virus in your throat could multiply and turn you into a mass of infected tissue during suspended animation." This comforted the kid, who went back to sleep after being checked by Smith. I think I remember Smith going around to the "sleepers" and pretending to examine them, to satisfy the kid. (Don't recall if it was Will or Penny.) I'm not sure how Smith got trapped on board. Anyone remember? As I recall, the robot was quite unintelligent in the first few episodes, but improved with time. I've seen Bill Mumy (Will) on some old Alfred Hitchcock reruns, but nowhere else. Paul Knight UUCP: {umcp-cs!eneevax || seismo!elsie}!imsvax!paul ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 86 03:06:41 GMT From: hropus!jrw@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Webb) Subject: Re: LOST IN SPACE > The robot was always called "Robot", and had one large "leg" with > a tractor-tread-sort-of-thingy at the bottom that somehow let him > both climb and roll around. In the early episodes, Robot actually had two legs that shuffled from front to rear. In later episodes, Robot was modernized (?) and was made to have one "large 'leg'" that did not shuffle. Jim Webb ihnp4!houxm!hropus!jrw ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 12 Aug 1986 18:25:54-PDT From: routley%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Re: Flight of the Dragons In the credits for the recent TV fantasy "film" it was stated that the film was based on the book _The_Dragon_and_the_George_ by Gordon Dickson. This is correct; there is such a book. A publisher that comes to mind is Ballantine Books, but I would not swear to it. <FLAME ON> It is my personal opinion that the creators of this "film" took the book and BUTCHERED it! They took the main characters from the book, threw in a couple of useless ones, changed the way the story was told, and to top it off, threw away the plot! I believe the original story, even with the compression necessary to fit the book into the hour availiable, would have been far preferable! <FLAME OFF> I guess that in order to be seen on mainstream TV, a good SF/Fantasy story has to be modified to be palatable to the average viewer public. I think that this is a similar issue to the discussion earlier about _Blade_Runner, in that the producers totally turned the original story inside out. I believe _Blade_Runner_ was still good, not so for _Flight_. I will concede that this WAS a FANTASY show on mainstream TV, a major accomplishment. There seems to be a dearth on TV of this material (I don't think I can label the _Dungeons_and_Dragons_ cartoon as Fantasy material ... well, maybe I can. its sort of O.K, even for an older DM like me). I seem to see a bit more SF out there in Tube-land, although there isn't much good stuff. I am not referring to the old stuff (i.e. ST, Dr.W, etc). Getting back to the original question, _The_Dragon_and_the_George_ is an excellent book by Gordon Dickson. Maybe he should have gotten the producers of _Flight_ to "informally base" it on his book :-) kevin routley ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 86 13:47:50 GMT From: lindsay@cheviot.newcastle.ac.uk (Lindsay F. Marshall) Subject: The Big Pull Does anyone else remember a BBC television serial called "The Big Pull" which had a sequel called (I think) "The Big Push". It would have been running sometime in the early sixties and was concerned (initially) with the fact that when pairs of astronauts were sent into space only one returned, this one astronaut having absorbed the personality of the missing astronaut. I believe that the main astronaut character was called Anderson. This program scared me a lot, but NOBODY seems to remember it (not even my mother and father who I know watched it with me). There is no trace of this in any histories of SF or listings of sixties programs. Please tell me I'm not making this up... Lindsay F. Marshall Computing Lab., U of Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK ARPA : lindsay%cheviot.newcastle.ac.uk@ucl-cs.arpa JANET : lindsay@uk.ac.newcastle.cheviot UUCP : <UK>!ukc!cheviot!lindsay ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 86 08:45 PDT From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM Subject: re:...(It's a GOOD life) I seem to remember reading that story, by Jerome Bixby (I think), in an anthology called Tomorrow's Children, (edited by Asimov) and being surprised a number of years later when I saw it on TV. It was either a TWILIGHT ZONE or OUTER LIMITS episode. It WAS Billy Mumy. Marina Fournier Arpa: <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 86 16:46 CDT From: "David S. Cargo" <Cargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: SF-TV programs There are three SF TV shows I remember that nobody has mentioned yet. MEN IN SPACE This one became the subject of both a comic book and Murray Leinster novelization. I don't remember the years, though late '50s is what comes to mind. The rockets were stage rockets, the manned capsules were bullet shaped, sometimes with steering fins. No idea about production dates, names, or acters. WORLD OF GIANTS Another show of about the same time period. A US spy gets exposed to some top secret rocket fuel and shrinks to a six inch height. I remember him riding around inside a camera (he could look out the lens aperature), and living in a doll house. One episode he sneaks into a pidgeon coop to relieve a courier pidgeon of its message. He carried a tear gas pen, that was of large size (to him). JOHNNY QUEST Prime time animated series of the '60s. Now coming out in comic book form. And, one other show I saw back in the late '50s or early '60s, DR. WHO. How, might you ask? Well, I saw it broadcast on a Canadian station (from Vancouver, B.C. I think). I didn't quite know what to make of it at the time. I guess it was from current BBC production of that time, or else closer to it than the US is getting now. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 86 10:41 CDT From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: Re: black holes and Broadhead(Gateway) *** Major Spoiler Warning : Alert, Alert! *** At the end of Gateway, Braodhead's group of five find a black hole, but get trapped. The ship is a two-piece ship, and everyone gets into one end in order to eject the other half. Broadhead runs back to get something and "accidently" pushes the eject button. (Even he isn't certain). He survives and everyone else is trapped in the blackhole. By ejecting the other half of the ship enough momentum is transferred to the first half to get out of the event horizon. Similar to the pair production example. Brett (Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Aug 86 1055-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #256 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 19 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 256 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Aug 86 23:08:43 GMT From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints The underlying point most of you have missed is that it took no more than a month FROM THE COLONIST'S POINT OF VIEW for the Marines to reach the planet. Gateway was certainly NOT some fraction of a light-month from Acheron. That REQUIRES FTL of some form. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 18:40:59 GMT From: enmasse!diana@caip.rutgers.edu (Diana Carroll) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes: > Alpha Centauri is about 4 LY away; to travel this distance in 10 >months (ship time) you would have to travel at .9790c. Certainly >not unreasonable. To travel 20 LY in 10 months, .99913c. Huh? Either your calculations are wrong, or mine are. Would anyone who see's a problem with them please let me know? C = 2.998e+08 m/sec. 4LY = 3.788e+16 m. 10M (months) = 2.63e+07 sec. The speed necessary to go 4LY (lightyears) in 10M is 4LY meters 3.788 x 10**16 m speed = ---------- = ---------------- = 1.44 x 10**9 m/s. 10M seconds 2.63 x 10**7 sec speed m/s 1.44 x 10**9 m/s % lightspeed = --------- x 100 = ----------------- x 100 = 480% C m/s 2.998 x 10**8 m/s That makes sense because lightyear is defined as the distance light travels in one year. If you travel four light years in under four years, so are going faster than the speed of light, si'? Also (4.8c) times (10 months) is (four years), the time it would take to travel four lightyears AT the speed of light. Diana Carroll diana@enmasse.UUCP decwrl!decvax!genrad!panda!enmasse!diana ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 86 17:44:17 GMT From: ihlpa!pkb@caip.rutgers.edu (Benson) Subject: Re: Flaw in the Alien's physiology > What doesn't ring true is the double set of teeth. Consider the > musculature needed to work that long extinsible tongue with the > inner teeth, and the fact that all of that is perforce in the > middle of the poor guy's food passage. Now, in real life, > creatures with long tongues like that either suck blood, sip > necture, or eat flies, but they DON'T bolt down huge chunks of > flesh (which is obviously what the Alien's OUTER teeth are made > for), because there isn't room in their throats for such a thing. > > No wonder the poor guy is mean; he must go to bed every night > thinking: "God damn, I'm so hungry, I need a steak or a hamburger, > or a roast, or some juicy evolutionist, but NO MORE OF THIS FLOWER > NECTURE, please Lord.... I don't remember for sure so I'm probably wrong. In Alien didn't the monster suck the brain matter out of the crew members it caught?????? ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 86 23:10:42 GMT From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes: >To travel 4 LY in 10 months, starting and ending at rest, would >require a constant acceleration/deceleration of 8.4g (a good reason >for deep-sleep or whatever!). > Another calculation: with a 100% efficient rocket drive (e.g. >matter to energy conversion powering a laser pointed out the back) >the constant-acceleration 4-LY 10-month one-way trip would require >a fuel to payload ratio of more than 35:1. Except that it was quite obvious that all the ships in both ALIEN movies used generated gravitational fields. This solves all your problems. Accelerations of thousands of Gs are possible with no strain, and no reaction mass is required (in theory) because you latch on to other mass around you. Assuming you could make a "gravity laser" that did not diminish with distance, you could just latch on to your target star (with attraction) or your home star (with repulsion). If you could make the acceleration arbitrarily high, you could leave the Galaxy in a week subjective time (except that you would hit lots of particles at that speed and would also need a strong force field to protect you.) Anti gravity also explains the atmospheres on the ships. The walls are there for convenience and safety. Most of the air stays on ship through gravity. That's why the air flow in the lock was not so strong that old Rip couldn't hang on. Brad Templeton Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: Sun 17 Aug 86 11:25:06-EDT From: Ben Bishop <T.SAILOR%DEEP-THOUGHT@EDDIE.MIT.EDU> Subject: Aliens and FTL Ok, let us try to get some things right and figure this out. In ALIEN, Lambert says they're half way home (10 months more to go -- for the sake of argument, 10 SUBJECTIVE months to go) and they are not even able to find Alpha Centauri (I presume they had a fix on where SOL/sun was and just needed another star to figure where they were on their route). Given FTL, no problem: SUBJECTIVE = real time and everything is happy. With no FTL, it gets a bit confusing. Accellerating or Decellerating that ship (the Nostromo w/cargo was *huge*) would have cost a fortune (even in adjusted dollars -:)); but let's assume that getting it up to and down from that kind of speed is no problem -- we have to since we do NOT have FTL. Now, one thing with FAST ships, and I mean near 'c' (especially where time dilation is MUCH bigger than 4:1) is that the 'real' time goes by at an astounding rate on earth (yes, wrt the ship of course). To travel 10 light years in 10 subjective months would require more than 10 years on earth (I don't feel like working out the math, especially since it isn't that important -- except that 10 ly ==> at least 10 years). Fine. And it seems that the Nostromo was just a hair or two beyond 10 light years from earth. Notice the scales. Now what was so *terrible* about Riply being gone for 57 years? That's NOTHING. They must be hitting dilation times like that all the time, if not MUCH longer. Don't try and counter that it was SUBJECTIVE time either (wrt Riply): the company seemed to make it quite clear that it was earth time. And even then, in 20 years the colonists would have had to have gotten there, and set up everything as it was in ALIENS -- a task that looked like it took 20 years. So, from this I think everyone can reasonably assume that the ALIEN/ ALIENS universe had human technology at the FTL level. Ben Bishop bishop@athena.mit.edu p.s. If it *did* take years to get someplace, and reinforcements were only 17 days away, I would have waited the 17 days so I would have IMMEDIATE backup -- waiting 10+ years for help would be silly. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Aug 86 03:08:09 GMT From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (T Cox) Subject: Alien physiology -- comments hutch@hammer.UUCP (Stephen Hutchison) writes: >ted@imsvax.UUCP (Ted Holden) writes: >>What doesn't ring true is the double set of teeth. Consider the >>musculature needed to work that long extinsible tongue with the >>inner teeth, and the fact that all of that is perforce in the >>middle of the poor guy's food passage. Now, in real life, >>creatures with long tongues like that either suck blood, sip >>necture, or eat flies, but they DON'T bolt down huge chunks of >>flesh (which is obviously what the Alien's OUTER teeth are made >>for), because there isn't room in their throats for such a thing. I'll grant you the aardvark, but explain for me the flamingo's tongue. >I thought about it when I watched "Aliens" and came to the >following conclusions: > >The outer teeth are used to "cut" resin which is secreted by the >Alien. The resin seems to be secreted by the "tongue" but not >necessarily past the inner teeth. The flexible tongue allows it to >spray resin all over the place (as was done by the one which roped >up the pilot's hands as she was reaching for the controls, just >before it killed her.) > >When the alien wants to feed, it feeds like a spider. It punches a >hole in the victim and injects digestive fluids, then sucks up the >results. Sorry, but no. No, no, no. That only works on creatures with exoskeletons. An ant will dissolve and turn into a nice spider-meal; but you and me would run all over the floor. No external non-dissolving covering. And don't say "they coat people with resin" because then you're investing shitloads of energy AND bodily resources just for a meal. >The tongue and outer teeth are also useful as weapons for attacking >other creatures. Or defense, in the extremely unlikely event that >the Bugs are actually a naturally occurring lifeform. I heard recently about some group that meets regularly to dream up alien beings and then puts together two of them to see what would happen. I gather that Larry Niven et. al. are part of the group to be techno-physics gadflies. Sounds like fun, and I wonder what they would say about Aliens from the movie of that name . . . I never saw an Alien *eat* anybody. Rend limb from limb, yes; gouge chunks out of, yes; decapitate, yes. Eat, no. And as for the crap I've read about eating brains and absorbing RNA, sweet Jesus, who ever told you that knowledge was encoded in RNA?!? Sure, cells' instructions, but do you think that all the stuff you studied in college and high school is packed away as RNA? Anyone care to enlighten us as to how memory is stored? I'll give you a hint: It Isn't RNA. Now, the Aliens DO grow out of hosts, but there seemed to be very little in the way of *eating* from the inside. The little [big?] buggers only seem to be noticed by the hosts AS THEY EMERGE. And how do you have something that size squirrelled away inside your body w/o noticing? Do the face-huggers remove your right lung to make room? And just how do they get so big after they come out? [Maybe they do eat people; then again, maybe they eat metal too] Thomas Cox CompuServe: 76317,3121 GEnie: CLIPJOINT UUCP: ...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Aug 86 23:57 MDT From: <SLRM8%USU.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> (KARL MATHIAS) Subject: Aliens: leaving the bay door open In regards to professional soldiers leaving the bay to their craft open in the movie "Aliens": I am in the Air Force, and while not a member of an aircrew, I have noticed that transports quite often leave their bay doors open while on an airfield. This allows the crew and maintenance teams easier movement out of the craft, and I would imagine that it allows some ventilation of the compartment. Sitting on the ground all buttoned up would drive the aircrew of such a small craft into fits after a while. Anyway, would you sit on the ground all closed up so someone (or in "Aliens" something) could tear up your external devices, i.e. engines, communication devices, control surfaces, armor, etc? Not me. More than likely the co-pilot was out checking the ship over and one of the beasties slipped in the bay door. 2d Lt Karl Mathias ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 13:43:50 GMT From: helm!eric@caip.rutgers.edu (Eric Hyman) Subject: Re: ALIENS sequel: my theory tedi@dartvax.UUCP (Edward M. Ives) writes: >Even though Sigourney Weaver has said that she won't do a sequel, >you never know; money talks. In which case, here is my stupid >theory on the plot: "Survey Says.....BZZZT" IF Sigourney Weaver gets her way, THERE WILL BE an A sequel to Aliens! I saw A LIVE interview of her right after I saw the film, and she said that she Loved the character and doing the movie, and that she saw various Unused, and over-looked areas in the story, as well as things that could be built upon, and that she WAS CURRENTLY Planning on doing a sequel which she intended to be in and direct. When prompted as to a possibly title for the third film, she gave a smug look and said "Oh, I'm not sure yet, but it would have to be something like "Aliens GALORE" Hopefully it will be an ALL OUT war with the Aliens when we find out that they aren't a bunch of misplaced ants, but a HI-tech space faring society. Then we can have the Good space shoot em up we've been waiting to see! Eric Hyman @ HELM (516)-694-5320 philabs!sbcs!helm!eric ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 86 19:30:12 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes: > Another calculation: with a 100% efficient rocket drive (e.g. >matter to energy conversion powering a laser pointed out the back) >the constant-acceleration 4-LY 10-month one-way trip would require >a fuel to payload ratio of more than 35:1. This really is the >absolute, theoretical limit for a ship powered by onboard fuel. First of all, this is in no way an absolute, theoretical limit; merely a practical constraint which could be violated if rapid transmission of the payload were sufficiently valuable. Second, picking up your fuel as you go along may well be practical. This nullifies the whole calculation. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 86 21:08:24 GMT From: oakhill!hunter@caip.rutgers.edu (Hunter Scales) Subject: Re: Alien physiology -- comments benn@sphinx.UUCP (T Cox) writes: >gouge chunks out of, yes; decapitate, yes. Eat, no. And as for >the crap I've read about eating brains and absorbing RNA, sweet >Jesus, who ever told you that knowledge was encoded in RNA?!? >Sure, cells' instructions, but do you think that all the stuff you >studied in college and high school is packed away as RNA? Anyone >care to enlighten us as to how memory is stored? I'll give you a >hint: It Isn't RNA. I seem to recall some experiment done with planaria (flatworms) in which a bunch of worms were trained to run a maze by use of electric shocks. These were then ground up and fed to some untrained worms and, lo and behold, these worms could negotiate the maze with no trouble. Did I dream this or is this just part of the memory puzzle? Motorola Semiconductor Inc. Hunter Scales Austin, Texas {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax,gatech}!ut-sally!oakhill!hunter ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 86 15:30:37 GMT From: jhunix!ins_apmj@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick M Juola) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints diana@enmasse.UUCP (Diana Carroll) writes: >desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes: >> Alpha Centauri is about 4 LY away; to travel this distance in >>10 months (ship time) you would have to travel at .9790c. > >Huh? Either your calculations are wrong, or mine are. Would >anyone who see's a problem with them please let me know? Mr. desJardins is talking about ship time, which is affected by relativistic time dialation. Check any freshman physics textbook for references. (Basically time as perceived on the ship runs slower than in the rest of the universe, so the crew only sees 10mo pass.) Pat Joula Hopkins Maths {seisom!umcp-cs|ihnp4!whuxcc|allegra!hopkins}!jhunix!ins_apmj ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Aug 86 1119-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #257 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 19 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 257 Today's Topics: Books - Turner & Heart of the Comet, Films - Howard the Duck & Movies on Video, Television - The Flight of Dragons & Lost in Space, Miscellaneous - Time Travel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Aug 86 22:39:38 GMT From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: The New World: A Review "This is a grand, glowing poem. Turner's wonderful hand at blending cultures... and the ease whereby tricks out of Star Wars shed their hokum and become a jamais litteraire ... made for a happiness that simply grew as I read..." James Merrill A year or two ago I asked in this newsgroup why all SF poetry was so abominable, and why there was no serious SF poetry as impressive as (say) The Book of the New Sun. There is now: Frederick Turner's "The New World: An Epic Poem," Princeton University Press, 1985, 182 pp. What's it about? Since I can't say it any better, I quote from Turner's introduction: "...The story opens in the year 2376 A.D. The world's fossil and nuclear fuels have been spent, its metallic ores exhausted, and much of its population either departed for the stars or slaughtered in the great twentieth- and twenty-first-century pogroms against the middle class. But high civilizations, based on a technology of solar and wind power, glass and resin chemistry, microprocessors and bioengineering, still flower on the earth. War is waged by mounted knights in resinite armor, with lasers and swords. The ancient institution of the nation state, obeying the same historical laws that brought it into existence, has collapsed, and the human race has discovered new forms of political organization: the Riots -- violent matriarchies based in the ancient cities, whose members have no incest prohibitions and no money, are addicted to the psychedelic joyjuice, and have almost lost the power of human language; the Burbs -- populations descended from the old middle class, whom the Riots hold hostage and use as slaves to produce their food, luxuries and joyjuice; the Mad Counties -- religious theocracies, dominated in North America, by fanatical fundamentalists; and the Free Counties -- independent Jeffersonian aristocratic democracies, where art, science, and the graces of human life are cultivated to their highest, as in classical Athens, Renaissance Florence, and Heian Japan. The Free Counties have developed a new religion of their own, combining science, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, and the other major religions. Under the influence of the great oriental cultures, the implicit divisions of American society have emerged explicitly in a caste system..." Yow. And that's just the background for the story. :-) WARNING: possible spoilers follow (if a spoiler is possible with an epic that's made for retelling, that is). The story takes place in a time when a league of Mad Counties have launched a Holy War against the free counties of Ahiah. It's about the events that happen to member of the McCloud and Quincy families, especially the hero James George Quincy. If this book had been written as an SF novel, it would probably be nominated for a major award: the story is a GREAT one, and the world Turner creates is convincing in a way that few SF worlds other than Dune, Middle Earth, and Urth are. It started slow for me: I had to read 50 to 60 pages before Turner's story grabbed me by the throat and made me take notice (interestingly, that's a point some reviewers have also made: it takes a while, I think, for the reader to adjust to a style so long out of fashion: "The New World" should be read aloud, perhaps, with a circle of friends). In reading this epic poem, I am reminded of several other SF works: "Engine Summer" by John Crowley, "The Book Of The New Sun" by Gene Wolfe, and "Dune" by Frank Herbert. Turner's universe has some similarities to the universes created in those works. I feel that it will take some time for SF fans to approach this work as SF (it's a quirky thing, writing an epic poem in the 1980s: and a still quirkier thing writing an SF epic), but that eventually it will be recognized as an important and rich contribution to the genre. Not only is the story a great one, full of great drama, love, treachery and despair, but the main characters (mostly) are believable people you come to care for (the characters I have trouble with are comic characters, but that's OK if you can get into the classical tradition). In my opinion, this is great and charming SF. Is it great poetry? I suspect it will be controversial, since it's a truly conservative challenge to the directions poetry has been going in in our century (Turner claims he's trying to go beyond modernist lyric poetry in the Introduction, which you should definitely read if you want to get into this book). At times the poetry drags, but that's true of all epics (epic, remember, is not lyric). But listen to the music of the first stanza in which the poet invokes his muse (Sperimenh is one of their gods, the god of human creativity (i.e., Experiment)). By the way, the poet is a voice from the 24th century; this is revealed toward the end (p. 160) when he talks about his own experiences in a time of hardship. I sing of what it is to be a man and woman in our time. Wind of the spirit, I should have called upon you long ago but you would have me gasp, draw dust for breath, weep without tears, spoil the tale in its telling, wander an emigrant where no garden grows before you'd take me back into the bosom of your word. Sperimenh, master-mistress, heavenly ghost of humanity, tell to me how heroines and heroes dignify the windmills that they turn, how invent the truth out of nothing. Your body, I know it as this sweet English that I learned; It may be seen in other, finer dressing, in the feathers of brilliant inflexions, in the scales and spines of what barbaric or subtle or lucid civilizations, but where I love your gentle face is in our English: bright-eyed, furry, swift-footed, suckler of her young. I have walked the maze of words, preoccupied, and then burst out suddenly into your astonishing air, knowing my toinl as a tiny threading of your immense mind, a mind as innocent as meadows, as lovely, as beyond dying. What that great web is you are weaving, no one of us knows; lend me your lightning, apocalypse yourself, let me see one pattern of the whole, and clothe my poem in words. If you're going to read this poem, you'll need (as I've said) some patience to get into it. As for me, I'm going to read it again right away. Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 86 17:34:16 GMT From: duke!ndd@caip.rutgers.edu (Ned Danieley) Subject: Re: HEART of the COMET - A book review From: Wilcox@HI-MULTICS.ARPA >I finished Heart Of the Comet by Gregory Benford and David Brin >several days ago. Before my impressions fail me, I will relate >them: I also just finished Heart of the Comet, and would like to comment on some of your statements. >BEWARE OF MILD SPOILERS > >earth people have landed on Comet Halley and are attempting to find >out any deep dark secrets it may carry. Actually, the goal of the project is to see if the comet can be placed in an orbit that is more accessible to Earth. The idea seems to be that comets can be used to supply various raw materials, including water. Later events, which form the basis for the story, change that. >extreme prejudice. The prejudice isn't racial, rather it is >ideological in nature. I'm having a hard time with this one. In one sense, the Percells and the Orthos are not different races, but in another sense they are (two orthos certainly couldn't give birth to a Percell). I had the clear impression that there was dislike and (personal) discrimination based on this genetic variance, not just on ideology. I just don't know enough genetics to argue the appropriateness of the word "racism". >with wordy ideas and passages, there wasn't enough "REAL" SF to >satisfy me. The reader is asked to accept a few outlandish ideas, >and that's tough enough in a book that I like. I thought there was a fair amount of what I consider to be "real" SF. Methods of working in low gravity, ways to alter a comet's orbit, use of robots and computers in manufacturing... None of these may be explained in great detail, but they are there. The only outlandish idea(s) that I saw dealt with the biological advances that were postulated at the beginning of the story, and which were continued as it progressed. They didn't seem that unreasonable to me, although I'm not a biologist. >Heart of the Comet rates a -1.5. That makes it one to read when >desperate for a late night sedative. I would say that the book is much better than this, say +2 or so. Not riveting, but clearly better than average. Ned Danieley decvax!duke!ndd ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 86 01:28:03 GMT From: spdcc!dyer@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Dyer) Subject: Re: Howard the (Lame) Duck--Avoid This Crummy Movie! Gordon Hamachi has said it all, and has kept me from wasting too much of my time blathering on about how revoltingly stupid this movie is. This is truly Lucas' "Heaven's Gate"; a steep slide down the slippery slope that began with "RotJedi". It is beyond me how anyone with any sense at all could think of releasing this picture: it is dull, witless, tastelessly derivative of everything ever done by the Spielberg/Landis/Lucas mafia, much of which wasn't worth seeing the first time, and totally undeserving of anyone's time, even for $1.00 on a video tape. My friend next to me fell asleep, as did a few more of the handful of people sitting alone in the cavernous 70mm Dolby theater. If anything, the miniscule size of the audience on a weekend night is a fine reminder of the power of word-of-mouth--this movie arrived fatally injured, and it hasn't got long to live. Steve Dyer dyer@harvard.HARVARD.EDU {linus,wanginst,bbnccv,harvard,ima,ihnp4}!spdcc!dyer ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 86 17:23:23 GMT From: enmasse!diana@caip.rutgers.edu (Diana Carroll) Subject: Re: SciFi Movies on Video >A few others (not really scifi but so what): > 2069 - A Sex Odyssey (R-rated German film) > Lust in Space (X-rated) > Vixanna's Revenge (aka Whore of the Worlds, aka Lust in Space II > / X-rated) > Ultraflesh (x-rated with Seka) Let us not forget that classic (?hmph?) "Star Virgin". :-) Complete with phallic robot to teach girl raised in space about earthly pleasures. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 86 17:37:30 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: The Flight of Dragons > alle@ihlpl.UUCP (Allen England) > I saw this also and was pleasantly surprised to see that it was a > decent adaptation of the Dickson's story "The Dragon and the > George". Ghak! "Decent" you say? This must be some meaning of "decent" with which I am not familiar! I'll agree that 1) the TV show was not without charm, and 2) the elements that were imported from TDatG enhanced the show, and mostly formed the best parts of it. But I would have thought that anyone seeing this expecting an adaptation of the book would have been bitterly dissapointed. In addition to major elements, events, and plot lines from TDatG, the show drags in elements of LotR, (or perhaps some more generic "quest" saga) Brunner's "The Traveler in Black", a little touch of Niven's Mana and a fairly large element of D&D gaming, but in a comercialized token-and-board format. They should have left well enough alone, as these extra elements mainly led to incongruities and inconsistancies. Further, the "triumph" of "Science" over "Magic" at the end was handled so poorly that, when I contemplate innocent youngsters viewing this propaganda, I must violently supress my urge to vomit. I'll grant that many parts of it are "decent", and the whole wasn't as bad as the worst elements I note above. But, viewed as an adaptation of TDatG, it is, at best, tolerable. Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 86 11:22:25 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com Subject: LOST IN SPACE pilot From: topaz!paone (Phil Paone) > I seem to remember a BW epsidoe of LIS which was the pilot for the > series. Its been such a long time and even when the show was in > syndication around the NY area about 10 years ago and they never > showed the BW episods which were pretty good. Am I imagining > things or was there an actual pilot episode which delt with > Smith's giving physicals to the crew before sabotaging the > mission? You're certainly not remembering the actual pilot for the series, since the pilot as such was never televised (the situation is somewhat, but not exactly, like that of STAR TREK's "The Cage"), and more importantly, the Dr. Smith character didn't exist in the pilot. You're thinking of the first episode of the series (which has the scene you describe). The entire first season of the show was filmed in black and white. Anyways, the true pilot (which can be had, though not legally, on videotape --- I've watched a copy) is a bit different from the final product. For one, as I said, Dr. Smith didn't exist --- it was the meteor shower they encounter that sends them off course, rather than Smith's extra weight throwing off the navigation. Secondly, the Robot didn't exist in the pilot, either. Thirdly, the ship was not named Jupiter II in the pilot (I'm not going to tell you what it was, as I have a trivia question about that posted elsewhere). Last, but not least, the music in the pilot wasn't the familiar "Johnny" Williams music, but Bernard Hermann's music from THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL. The pilot's story elements ended up being parceled out to the first five episodes of the show. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 86 15:55:34 GMT From: fortune!stirling@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick Stirling) Subject: Re: Time Travel From: berman@vaxa.isi.edu (Richard Berman) > For example, take a small gold coin. Send it 1 second into the > future. (I assume you've solved the problem of displacing the > matter present at the time/place of the coin's appearance). Now > you have two coins. So, after you've "time-cloned" the growing > pile of coins 16 times, you get 65,000+ gold coins. Clearly this > violates conservation of mass. Huh?? If you send a coin a second into the future, you would not have 2 coins, but a 1sec period where there are no coins at all! To duplicate the coin you would have to send it into the past, where the coin already existed. This would not violate cons of mass, because the 'original' coin would disappear after the 1sec preiod of two coins (follow?): original: ------------------------------------- duplicate: --------------------> t0 t1 Sending the coin back in time is folding its time-line. At t1 the 'original' is sent back to t0; two coins then exist (really the same coin of course) until t1 again, when the 'original' disappears (because it was sent back). This raises an interesting thought: If I mark the original coin between t0 and t1, then an identical mark should appear on the 'duplicate' (but not the other way around). I could (say) send a piece of paper back a week to myself a week ago, and take it to some distant location. Then, until the time of sending is reached again, I would have a means of instant communication! Any comments/thoughts? patrick {ihnp4, hplabs, amdcad, ucbvax!dual}!fortune!stirling ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Aug 86 1140-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #258 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 19 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 258 Today's Topics: Star Trek (15 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Aug 86 09:32 CDT From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: Saavik's half-Romulan The fact that Saavik is half-Romulan is mentioned in the Vonda McIntyre novelizations of STII:TWOK and STIII:TSFS. These books are very enjoyable. The characterizations are good, some details are covered that are not covered in the movies. Overall, quite satisfying books. Brett (Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Aug 86 16:49:15 PDT From: Chris McMenomy <christe%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA> Subject: Re: Star Trek and New Characters Chris Durham writes "the killing of David was a mistake".... Maybe, if what you want is new characters. Within the context of The Wrath of Khan and The Search for Spock, David's death is thematically necessary. The two movies should really be part of a trilogy, dealing with the question of facing death. TWOK is Spock's or the intellect's answer: you minimize the number of people who have to die to save the community. TSFS is McCoy's or the emotional answer: you risk the whole community to save a valued individual. Kirk can't get his friend back (and, as he says, keep his personal integrity) without risking everything he has, and in the process he loses the two expressions of his own immortality: his ship and his son. He had really lost Spock in TWoK; if that loss were not to be a trick (change the rules so you never have to face a No-Win situation) then to get Spock back Kirk has to make a sacrifice equally great, and more personal than simply exchanging one friend for another (such as losing McCoy or Sulu). If the powers that be were going to do this right, the third movie would have Kirk resolving the emotional and the intellectual response somehow in the face of his own death. I admit that's a tall order. Personally, I'd like to see Kirk lost in space, a legend in his own time, and a new crew on a new ship. Christe McMenomy ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 86 23:41:37 GMT From: meccts!rjg@caip.rutgers.edu (Robert J. Granvin) Subject: Re: ST IV: The Voyage Home >Kirk, Spock, the basic bridge crew, and a few others (redshirts?) >go back in time to 1989, where they have to get a whale, and bring >it back so it can tell the aliens that everything's just peachy >keen. > >I have pieced that much together from various rumors; anybody know >more? From Official sources (Paramount), The crew of the Enterprise (now the Bird of Prey...), return to _present day_ Earth. Not slightly in the future or the past, but present. They don't make any comments about the plot in general, but the story does feature Jane Wyatt as Amanda, and on present day earth, the crew teams up with a marine biologist played by Catherine Hicks. A quote from the official Star Trek fan club newsletter (article by Harve Bennett): "Star Trek IV is a time travel story. Our crew is coming back to present time. We think that it is a totally delicious idea and I hope everyone feels so when they see it. We are going to have our crew walking the streets of today. That never really quite happened in the series, it was always a little after or a little before. We're talking about coming back at great peril and for a noble purpose to save the Earth of the future. They have to come back to find in the 20th century what no longer exists in the 23rd century." There has never been an official mention of whales, at least. Secondary characters returning in addition to Robin Curtis as Saavik, are Grace Lee Whitney, Majel Barrett, and Mark Lenard. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 86 19:48:51 GMT From: ccd700!jim@caip.rutgers.edu (prototype account) Subject: Re: Saavik's half-Romulan From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> > The fact that Saavik is half-Romulan is mentioned in the Vonda > McIntyre novelizations of STII:TWOK and STIII:TSFS. Does anyone know of any full blooded Vulcans serving on Starships? Jim Sitek ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 86 00:09:59 GMT From: goldberg_4b@h-sc4.harvard.edu (Randy Goldberg) Subject: Re: ST IV: The Voyage Home bdw@ncoast.UUCP (Bill Wisner) writes: >Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home > They keep making one request, over and over: they want to speak to >"The Guardians." Shades of V'ger and Nomad?? I DO wish these stupid writers would come up with a few original ideas occasionally! E-mail to goldberg_4b@h-sc4.UUCP USmail to Randy Goldberg,157-58 17th Avenue,Whitestone NY 11357-3252 (E-mail only good until 16 Aug 1986) ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 86 15:57:02 GMT From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Saavik's half-Romulan jim@ccd700.UUCP (prototype account) writes: >Does anyone know of any full blooded Vulcans serving on Starships? Aside from the crew of the Intrepid, who died as soon as they were mentioned, Vulcans are _very_rare_ in the Fleet. During the run of the show, I don't believe ANY others were shown. One was blown away at the begining of STI: The Motion Sickness. And, of course, there's Spock and Saavik (both of her ;-). Anyone else? kaufman@orion.arpa kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 86 08:41 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Death in Star Trek The first paragraph of a recent posting of mine somehow disappeared between sending and its appearance in SFLovers, making, to me, the remaining comments rather incomprehensible. I'll try sending again. Yes, STiii's treatment of death as temporary is one of the main reasons I dislike it so much, and the reason one of my favorite ST stories is a fan written one, "Neverland" in the fanzine StarWings. Written before STiii, it's point was really to argue that Spock shouldn't be brought back, but goes on to address the concept of death and its importance to life. This is, by the way, another reason why I see a lot of philosophy in ST -- I've read a lot of it in ST fanzines which can get much deeper into the philosophical than the series or any of the pro novels. (I think StarWings is out of print, but if anyone's intested, message me, and I'll look into it. I have no connection with the publication beyond knowing some of the folks involved with it.) Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 86 11:39:46 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: STAR TREK and Greek drama > Speaking of Greek plays, there's another interesting aspect of >ST II-- Khan fit the part of a tragic figure. Athough a >potentially great man, he was destroyed by ambition and his lust >for revenge. Now \that/ is a very interesting analogy---although I'm not sure it holds up. After all, one of the fundamental premises of Greek tragedy was that men were men and gods were gods, and any man who forgot the difference was in for it. (e.g., in ANTIGONE Cleon has had it as soon as he demands (after winning the battle for Thebes) that his brother's body not be buried, as this is a violation of the rules of the gods.) Sartre makes a point of this in THE FLIES (a slanted retelling of parts of the Oresteia), in which Zeus is a petty tyrant. My recollection is that Greek drama doesn't deal (even the oblique Fruit-of-the-Tree-of-Knowledge fashion) with the question of puny humans who somehow transcend mere humanity (surely Shaw wasn't the first to consider a Superman, but I can't think of anyone further back than that---maybe it took the establishment of evolution to raise the possibility)). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 86 11:40:16 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: transparent radiation barriers >radiation barrier behind which Spock died. She maintained that it >was impossible for a radiation shield to be transparent (My theory >was that it wasn't transparent, but that it had visible light >receptors and transmitters on each side.) and a vicious argument >ensued. Since "crystal" (truly transparent glass, where normal sand-and-soda glass is distinctly green) is made largely from lead, it should be possible (albeit expensive) to construct a large transparent radiation barrier, possibly with Lexan laminations for strength. Alfred Bester has a form of this in THE STARS MY DESTINATION, which was written in the earlier 50's. ------------------------------ Date: 14 August 86 17:26 EDT From: O9YJ%CORNELLA.BITNET@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU Subject: (copy) Star Trek I'd like to argue some of the points made in a recent letter. > ST III was the slowest and least interesting of all three > (movies)...No particular theme, and no particular contribution. WRONG. ST III demonstrated the final step in Kirk's maturation (or, more accurately, demonstrated that it has taken place). Remember young J.T. Kirk? I'll never lose you... NEVER! His career, and especially the Enterprise, were of paramount (8-)) importance in his life; all else was secondary. He could not have destroyed the Enterprise at that point in his life, because he was so closely connected to it. He did threaten to destroy the ship at least twice: once as a bluff (LTBYLB) and once as a means of stopping the Kelvans (BAON); he could not go through with it in the latter case, however. That sacrifice would be too much for the young Kirk to make, because he has blurred the distinction between the Enterprise itself, and what it represents: NOTHING is more important than my ship. > However, by the time of ST III, Kirk has matured a great deal. He now knows that what gives the Enterprise life are the ideals and aspirations of the people aboard her. Without them, the Enterprise is just a ship. A good ship, one that he still loves, but not the most important thing in the galaxy. In other words, I think the quote would now read: NOTHING is more important than my crew. ST III proves that Kirk has finally realized WHY he's always loved the Enterprise: it embodies the greatest hopes, dreams, and aspirations of its crew, and mankind in general. These ideals breathe life into the Enterprise, and without them to sustain her, she is only a ship. Kirk can now sacrifice this ship because he now knows that, though the Enterprise will die, the dreams that gave her life will continue. That doesn't sound e unimportant to me. > How many people have died for your impatience? Answer:none. I think the crew of the Grissom would disagree, if they hadn't been killled by a Klingon trying to steal the Genesis device that otherwise would not have existed. > ST occasionally rose above the masses (of Hollywood junk) in its > writing... Frequently it didn't. > > WRONG. The entire first season, at least 2/3 of the second > season, and several of the final season episodes were > exceptionally well written, and most of the rest were at least > average. It was the FIRST credible, intelligent (to those who disagree: EVERYTHING seems obvious after 20 viewings!), clever, witty science fiction show that addressed relevant issues in an enjoyable context. I think you forget that science fiction draws a very limited audience on TV, so ST was up against the wall from the beginning. MASH is a comparatively easy format to pass off, so of course its appeal is greater. Also, let's not deify MASH; despite this easier format, many of the episodes were either a)boring, b)pointless, or c)both. They weren't ALL classics. I trust this letter will draw a variety of responses... ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 20:33:08 GMT From: mtgzz!eme@caip.rutgers.edu (e.m.eades) Subject: Re: Saavik's half-Romulan >Does anyone know of any full blooded Vulcans serving on Starships? In one episode or book (it's hard for me to remember since I read the Star Trek books long before I ever saw them), a starship manned only (mostly?) by vulcans called the Intrepid was destroyed. The story involved a giant amoeba-like creature is consuming portions of the galaxy and the Intrepid was sent to investigate. Spock "feels" the ship die shortly before the Enterprise is sent to investigate the Intrepid's disappearance. E.Eades ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 86 01:30:19 GMT From: public@wheaton (Joe Public) Subject: Re: Re: Saavik's half-Romulan jim@ccd700.UUCP writes: >Does anyone know of any full blooded Vulcans serving on Starships? In fact, there was a starship manned with an entirely Vulcan crew. Shame on me for not being able to remember the episode or the name of the ship (it's on the tip of my tongue) but the storyline involved the invasion of the galaxy by a gigantic amoeba-like living organism, and Kirk and the big-E had to penetrate it, plant an explosive in the nucleus, and beat a hasty retreat. The all-Vulcan ship was destroyed by the amoeba. calvin richter ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 22:30:47 GMT From: aecom!mkaplan@caip.rutgers.edu (Marc Kaplan) Subject: The Initial Voyages of the Starship Enterprise > cipher@mmm.UUCP (Andre Guirard) writes: > Vonda McIntyre's next Star Trek novel (all of which are excellent, > by the way) will be "Star Trek - the Initial Voyage of the > Starship Enterprise", or at least something close to that. > Definitely will be about the beginnings of the Enterprise's fame > (although I don't know if it's the first voyages of the ship, or > the first voyages of Kirk et al.) For some reason, at the end of the most recent ST novel, DEMONS, the publishers decided to wet our appetite with the first chapter or so from "The Initial voyages of the Starship Enterprise". If I remember correctly, it starts off with Kirk getting ready to take his first command, with a crew that's already partially in place. (He knows and is concerned about Spock). In fact there's a scene where Spock bids an almost emotional and tearful goodbye to Captain Pike. This should all make very interesting reading and is scheduled to come out in September. Marc Kaplan philabs!aecom!mkaplan Box 218,1300 Morris Park Ave AECOM, Bronx, New York 10461 ------------------------------ Date: 17 Aug 86 02:07:09 GMT From: wolf!billw@caip.rutgers.edu (Zee All-Knowing) Subject: Re: Saavik's half-Romulan >>Does anyone know of any full blooded Vulcans serving on Starships? > > In one episode or book (it's hard for me to remember since I read > the Star Trek books long before I ever saw them), a starship > manned only (mostly?) by vulcans called the Intrepid was > destroyed. The story involved a giant amoeba-like creature is > consuming portions of the galaxy and the Intrepid was sent to > investigate. Spock "feels" the ship die shortly before the > Enterprise is sent to investigate the Intrepid's disappearance. Somewhere or other, I remember seeing a statement that the Federation mans each starship with one race of beings, in order to provide a comfortable atmosphere for the crew members. Crews may consist of humans, Vulcans, Andorians, or what have you. They try to keep the number of crew members not of the appropriate race to under 2%. Bill Wisner ..ihnp4!jack!wolf!billw ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 86 20:05:10 GMT From: cbosgd!rtm@caip.rutgers.edu (Randy Murray) Subject: Re: STTMP -- Who Liked It. Well, we've said it before, but I agree. STTMP was beautiful and pleasing to the eye. It met my expectations and soothed a hunger for Star Trek that had been growing for years. (And now, the sad story) You see, when I was a child, my parents thought ST was silly and we didn't watch it. I didn't even know it was on. I have a slight recollection of "The Tholian Web" while staying with a babysitter ( I must have been 7 ) The area I live in did not carry ST in syndication and I NEVER saw any of the episodes until I was . . . well that gets ahead of the story. At the age of eleven I saw the book ST 9 ( the novelized stories by James Blish) and was captivated by the cover. I read it and fell in love I read all I could, and in my mind fashioned the perfect image. I had still photos and pumped my friends who had actually SEEN the series about details. By the time the movie came out I was spell bound. Randy Murray cbosgd!rtm ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Aug 86 0838-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #259 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 20 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 259 Today's Topics: Books - John Norman, Films - Howard the Duck (2 msgs) & Silent Running & Flight of the Navigator & The Fly, Television - Billy Mumy (2 msgs) & Lost in Space & More TV SF & Get Smart & Jonny Quest, Miscellaneous - Black holes & Continenetal Drift & Self-aware Computers & Supporting the Challenger ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 Aug 86 11:39:05 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: John Norman's beliefs JN is a philosophy teacher whose personal/professional point of view provides the underpinnings for his books (including TIME SLAVE and the non-fictional IMAGINATIVE SEX). In a nutshell, ethical naturalism states that whatever is, is right, and anyone who tries to change it is wrong; of course, this trips even faster if you aren't careful about your choices of "what is"---e.g., JN really does believe that women are naturally subservient creatures, happiest when they don't attempt to act the dominant parts properly belonging to men. His descriptions of the kajira ("slave-girl") have much in common with descriptions of women in ]Gothic[s---uncertainty and lack of control over one's future is seen as sexually exciting, with the excitement focused on anything that looks like it will be dominant and decisive. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 86 11:38:09 GMT From: einode!simon@caip.rutgers.edu (Simon Kenyon) Subject: Re: Howard the (Lame) Duck--Avoid This Crummy Movie! > Howard the Duck is the most worthless movie I have seen in a long > time. On an ABCDF scale, it gets an F-. Do not see this movie. > It is worse than boring..... [lots more] sounds just like the comic book! can't wait to see it; if it ever gets here :-( (obviously YOU never read the comic book) Simon Kenyon The National Software Centre, Dublin, IRELAND simon@einode.UUCP +353-1-716255 ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 08:06 PDT From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: HOWARD THE DUCK!!! To: turtlevax!hamachi@caip.rutgers.edu RE: "Howard the Duck is the most worthless movie I have seen in a long time." and following review by Gordon Hamachi. I LIKED HOWARD THE DUCK!!! Don't let this guy (Gordon Hamachi) scare you away from a good movie. Now, I realize that this movie is not "good" in the same sense that an "art film" is; it is not something to see if you are expecting intellectual gratification. However, if you are looking for an escapist movie with humor, a beautiful girl leading an all-girl rock band, and a duck, then you should go see this movie. The effects are very well done. In particular, the stop-motion photography is the best I have ever seen. Admittedly the plot is not something that can be called literature, but I didn't care: I was laughing or chuckling through most of the movie. If you can't suspend your disbelief a little with regard to Howard's "costume" then I pity your poor crippled imagination. I should point out that the movie owes alot to the original comic books. I mean more than just being a comic-book-in-movie-form in terms of plot and intellectual value. In the comics, the duck looks like a man in a duck suit. In the comics, Beverly has lots of seemingly sappy lines. In the comics, there are lots of tremendously bad puns. I LIKED THIS MOVIE. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHY CRITICS ARE GIVING THIS MOVIE SUCH BAD REVIEWS. Perhaps I am just weird. On second thought, I know I am weird, but this is no reason why you should not agree with me after seeing this movie. Hamachi's review is so vituperative that I wonder what other axe he has to grind. I cannot imagine anyone disliking a movie as much as he says he does. Besides, whatever happened to "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all"? Dave ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 86 20:15:32 GMT From: felix!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Richards) Subject: Re: Silent Running mwtilden@watmath.UUCP (M.W. Tilden, Hardware) writes: >In 1970 I remember seeing a 'making of' show that gave details on >the soon-to- be-released movie Silent Running. The drones were >played by teenagers who had no legs and had spent their life >walking on their hands. As a matter of interest, Duey was played >by a pholidimide (sp?) child with almost no lower torso at all. >Huey was played by a teenage boy who had lost his legs in a train >accident and No.3 was, I think, played by a girl with a similar >affliction. At the last place I worked there was a guy also working there that had played one of the drones. His name was Mark (I forget his last name). He was a very friendly guy, and seemed to have adapted well to his handicap. His legs were amputated just below the waist. He seemed pretty strong in the upper body, and didn't need any help from anyone. He even drove a modified van to work, and transferred himself to his wheelchair when he arrived. I don't know which drone he played, but none of the above stories seem to fit him. I *thought* that he was a Vietnam vet and had lost his legs over there, but I don't remember whether I was told that, or if I just assumed it. He died during an operation a little over a year ago, and he was missed by everyone who worked there. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 86 12:07 CDT From: "David S. Cargo" <Cargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: Movie FLIGHT OF THE NAVIGATOR I have seen this new Disney movie twice now, and enjoyed both times, but I have some questions that I thought somebody out there in netland might be able to answer. Does anybody know what seens were shot in Norway? In one of the scenes some pretty big, rugged mountains appear (over what should be central Florida). Some of the interior shots could have been done there. I saw a trailer for the movie where the voice of MAX was different than in the movie itself (which was credited to Paul Mall). It sounded to me like the voice of MCP from the movie TRON. Does anybody know who did the MCP voice? Does anybody know if Paul Mall is famous for doing anything else? David S. Cargo (Cargo at HI-Multics) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 86 18:11:22 PDT From: crash!pnet01!victoro@nosc.ARPA (Victor O'Rear) Subject: The Fly - The Remake * Nano Review - Worth $3.50 - Just Bad Execution The remake of The Fly suffers from a failed execution. What could have been an interesting re-thinking of the dangers of mass-teleprotion is nothing more than an updating of the old story with nifty computers and gruesome special effects. This is a film I averted my eyes from the screen from. And I'm not THAT squeamish. But this film takes the effects a bit to the extreme. If a sceen requires that a mans wrist be broken, better be it that it is a compound fracture with the bone jutting out... Geesch! ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 86 11:22:39 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com Subject: LOST IN SPACE (Billy Mumy) From: tekecs!leonard (Leonard Bottleman) > The non-descript child actor was Billy Mummy (how can you forget a > name like that?). Easily. That isn't his name. His name is "Mumy" --- pronounced "moo'-mee" --- not "Mummy". --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 86 08:49 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Billy Mumy Billy Mumy was also in the TZ movie; just a bit part (they guy at the pinball machine, if I recall) in the remaking of "It's a GOOD Life." He said he had suggested that the remake be about Anthony grown up so that he could recreate the part, but the producers wouldn't go for it. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 17:03:47 GMT From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) Subject: Re: LOST IN SPACE pilot > Last, but not least, the music in the pilot wasn't the familiar > "Johnny" Williams music, but Bernard Hermann's music from THE DAY > THE EARTH STOOD STILL. This music was used during the series as well, if I'm not mistaken. Music was added as the series continued. > The pilot's story elements ended up being parceled out to the > first five episodes of the show. This is validated by the fact that Dr. Smith was left on board the Jupiter II with the robot, while the rest of the people went exploring. I could never understand how John Robinson could be so cruel to leave Smith behind to freeze to death. Jonathan D. Trudel arpa: trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4,pyrnj,pyramid}!topaz!trudel ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 86 17:39:46 GMT From: houligan!bseymour@caip.rutgers.edu (Burch Seymour) Subject: SF on TV (Green Acres??) Bill Weinberger - adds to a previous posting and I add to his >> LOST IN SPACE - or as my father called it "Space Family >> Robinson". This was one of my favorite shows when I was growing >> up, in the mid-sixties. > Mine, too. Except now when I see it on re-reruns it seems > incredibly stupid. Don't underestimate the (lack of :-) ) taste > of a 10-year-old. I remember this show because it taught me frustration and contained the first character I actually LOATHED. Dr Smith of course. I never understood why, when he would sell out his friends at the drop of a dime, they would continually come to his rescue. Even as a kid I kept hoping he would be killed in some sort of nasty way. > You don't remember Richard Basehart?!!!! One of the all time > great deep voices and currently the voice for the elder Micheal > Knight (I never watch Knight Rider). I don't think he does it anymore, I think he died a while back. > IT'S ABOUT TIME - a one season (or two?) bomb about two (?) > astronauts caught in a time warp and landing in the prehistoric > ages. The only thing I really remember is one of the cavemen was > played by an actor from CAR 54 (ooh -- ooh) and somehow they were > rescued from the past and brought a caveman to the present. Also Imogene Coca, a true veteran of TV comedy. Two more that I haven't seen mentioned (sorry if they were and I missed it). 1) Science Fiction Theatre - A fifties (I think) show. I watched it in the 60's. I haven't seen it for years but I remember it as being pretty high quality stories. Has anyone seen it recently and care to comment? 2) Green Acres - No I'm not kidding. Oliver Douglas was clearly not in this universe, but in a close parallel one. For examples: a) Arnold Ziffle (a pig) could read, write, attended school with the "other kids", and was understood by everyone except Oliver. b) A neighborhood kid, Dinky Watson if memory serves, went to the moon. Actually the ending was ambiguous, but the viewer was left with the strong impression that the trip was made. c) Lisa commented in one show about the board games Scribble and Monotony, Oliver said "You mean Scrabble and Monopoly". When they went to Drucker's store later he stocked Scribble and Monotony. d) Mr Haney had ESP because he always showed up with whatever Mr Douglas needed. e) Hank Kimball could not have been human :-) I could go on, but even though it was not billed as SF I think one could safely include Green Acres as a humerous SF show. Anyone else care to comment???? Burch Seymour ....mcnc!rti-sel!gould!bseymour ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 86 17:18:42 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs billw@felix.UUCP (Bill Weinberger) writes: >MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E. - Some of these shows are great, others are >right in there with the bad science of LOST IN SPACE. Not really >SF all of the time, but certainly hi-tech for the sixties. Most >shows seem to have had a mad scientist out to conquer the world. >"Open channel D." If we're going to include this, we might as well include GET SMART. Lots of high-tech wizardry, none of which works right. One of the funniest shows of all time. "Not the cone of silence!" Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 86 08:46 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: SF on TV -- Johnny Quest With all the discussion of SF on TV, I've been surprised to see no mention of my first intro to SF, an animated series called "Johnny Quest." Johnny, his scientist Dad (Dr. Quest, of course--his specialty seems to be everything), his tutor/bodyguard Race Bannon, and Indian companion Hadji (sp?) explore the unknown, from invisible monsters to mummies to ancient temples. Anyone else remember it? Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 86 17:52:15 GMT From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott) Subject: Re: black holes and Broadhead(Gateway) From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> > He survives and everyone else is trapped in the blackhole. By > ejecting the other half of the ship enough momentum is transferred > to the first half to get out of the event horizon. Similar to the > pair production example. As I remember it none of the ship was within the event horizon at the time that Broadhead kicks out. This is important, 'cos once through the event horizon that's it mate, tough cookies, you're dead. Pair production also takes place outside the event horizon and one half of the pair gets eaten by the BH by crossing the EH. Once inside the Schwarzschild radius (aka Event Horizon) there is no escape, this is the whole point of a black hole, it swallows all, permanently (or at least until Hawking makes it evaporate or the Heechee come along). Tim Abbott ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 86 02:43:37 EDT From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU> Subject: Continental drift To: milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> >I hear that fishermen have brought up ancient implements from the >bottom of the North Sea. But I hadn't heard the more general >story. > >Ah well, that's continental drift for you. Not really. The North Sea was dry land in historical times not because of continental drift, which is an extremely slow process, but because the sea level was lower because more seawater was ice. Could the ancient implements have fallen from ships or sunken with ships? Coke bottles can be found at the deepest part of the ocean, but that doesn't mean that it was dry land any time after Coke was invented. Keith ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 86 17:14:51 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Self-aware computers dtt@unirot.UUCP (David Temkin) writes: >The use of computers is commendable, as it was in _Ender's Game_, >although his introduction of a spontaneosly generated artificially >intelligent being undermines the book's credibility if you know >anything about computers. I don't agree. Spontaneous generation of artificial intelligence is not believable given current programming practices and hardware, but I would not rule out the possibility that this might happen in the future. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 86 11:31:06 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: supporting CHALLENGER >The following open letter was found at the end of the book Lythonde This appears to be identical to the advertisement published in the NEW YORK TIMES on Sunday 23 March, organized by C. J. Cherryh and sponsored by a large fraction of this country's SF writers and fans (and others---I recognized at least one name solely from his authorship of one of my favorite board games). It has also appeared in Cherryh's most recent books. Wasn't it also reproduced in this digest around then? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Aug 86 0911-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #260 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 20 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 260 Today's Topics: Books - Clancey & Dickinson & Norman, Films - Howard the Duck & SF on Video, Radio - SF on Radio, Television - Jonny Quest & Superman & Billy Mumy & Gigantor & Astro Boy, Miscellaneous - Baen Books (2 msgs) & Sexy SF & SFL T-Shirt & Time Travel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Aug 86 18:30:00 GMT From: hp-pcd!everett@caip.rutgers.edu (everett) Subject: Tom Clancy: Red Storm Rising Tom Clancy's new novel "Red Storm Rising" is a recommended read. I guarantee that it will be on the bestseller lists for many months (a couple of years?) in both hardcover and paperback. It's about 650 pages long, the first 100 have some slow moments while all the characters and plot threads get established. After that, World War III starts as the Soviet Union attacks NATO (as a diversionary tactic: the real goal is securing oil fields in the Middle East without causing a nuclear war). Admittedly, I'm only about a third of the way through the book, but it's cut very much from the same vein as his first book "The Hunt For Red October". (If you haven't read it, get it first: it's out in paperback; the new one is in hardback.) Everett Kaser Hewlett-Packard Co. Corvallis, OR ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 86 00:29:58 GMT From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: The Flight of Dragons by Peter Dickinson The book "The Flight of Dragons" was written by Peter Dickinson and illustrated by Wayne Anderson. It was originally published in the U.K. by Pierrot Publishing Ltd. in 1979; the American edition is from Harper & Row, New York, also 1979. It was printed in Italy and typeset in - oh, never mind. Anyway, it is not a novel, but a long and somewhat light-hearted argument that dragons did in fact exist, that they were hunted to extinction, and that some form of racial memory preserves their potency as a symbol. Their flight was due to being largely sacks of hydrogen gas; this also accounts for their flaming breath. Their blood was somewhat acidic as part of the process that formed the hydrogen, which somewhat explains Sigurd's unusual preparations. Various other recurring aspects of dragon mythology are similarly "explained". I think Dickinson probably did believe his thesis; I have some serious doubts, but there is no doubt that the book is great fun. Wayne Anderson also did a fine job with the illustrations. If you should see a copy, you would do well to buy it.... Tim Maroney, Electronic Village Idiot {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 86 07:12:34 GMT From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: John Norman's beliefs cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) writes: > [...] JN really does believe that women are naturally subservient >creatures, happiest when they don't attempt to act the dominant >parts properly belonging to men. Would it be impolite to ask for your sources for this statement? It seems to be basically impossible to libel a public figure, so you are probably safe on legal grounds, but unless you can produce a real source for this insulting statement your ethical position is pretty poor... David desJardins ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 17:17:38 GMT From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: Howard the (Lame) Duck--Avoid This Crummy Movie! What's the point of saying we need more reviewers who like movies, Rob? Do you mean people who like the medium of cinema? If so, I agree. But if you mean people who are indiscriminate in their tastes, then, sorry, no. I want someone to tell me to save my money. BTW, I am very familiar with the Howard the Duck comic (anyone want to buy a mint condition No. 1?), and I thought the film was a disaster. Not as bad as the live-action Spiderman TV series of a few years back, but still a disaster. RJS Robert J. Sawyer c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Date: Fri 15 Aug 86 12:12:07-PDT From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA> Subject: SciFi Movies on Video, Part II Some more titles for your viewing "pleasure"......... At the Earth's Core Alien Contamination Barbarian Queen (female conan-clone/Lana Clarkson "stars") Creature from the Black Lagoon (classic) City Limits (road warrior clone) Cosmos - War of the Planets Clockwork Orange, A Countdown Doctor Who and the Daleks (Peter Cushing (?)) Doctor Who: Revenge of the Cybermen (w/Tom Baker) Day It Came to Earth, The Day the Earth Caught Fire, The Exterminators of the Year 3000 (Franco-Italian road warrior clone) Futureworld Flight to Mars (1951) Final Countdown Fire and Ice (animation by Ralph Bakshi) Godzilla vs. Monster Zero (1970) Godzilla vs. Mothra (1964 ?) Invaders from Mars (1953) * Kronos (1957) King Kong (1933 w/Fay Wray) King Kong (197? w/Jessica Lange) Logan's Run Master of the World Meteor Marooned Man Who Fell to Earth, The (w/David Bowie) Planet of the Apes (the whole series) Phase IV Rollerball Revenge of the Teenage Vixens from Outer Space (no..I did not make this one up....available in September) Swamp Thing * Soylent Green Trancers 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea * THEM ! (classic) Twilight Zone: The Movie Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea Women of the Prehistoric Planet Warrior and the Sorceress, The War of the Worlds When Worlds Collide Warriors of the Lost World (another road warrior clone) * Westworld and....of course..... Plan 9 From Outer Space Probably more later. Chapman@SRI-STRIPE ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 86 16:23:31 EDT From: "Darrell Ringler" <dringler@ardec> Subject: BBC Radio Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and The Prisoner Subject: on WBAI. If you live in the New York area, you might be able to listen to a broadcast of the original BBC Radio version of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy on radio station WBAI 99.5FM. The first three episodes were recently broadcast early on Saturday August 9th at 7AM on a radio program called _Child's Play_. The next set of episodes will be on Saturday the 16th and continue on for the rest of August until the whole series is finished. I don't know how many episodes there are in the entire show. I also don't remember who the host of this program is! I hope you can catch it! Preceeding that special show is the regular broadcast of _Hour of the Wolf_ from 5AM to 7AM. Its a show about `science fiction, fantasy and enchantment' hosted by Jim Freund. He has discussions about all kinds of topics related to science fiction and fantasy along with readings from books and music. I've enjoyed his program, whenever I managed to wake up that early! [ :-) ] Last Sunday, August 10th there was also a show all about the British series The Prisoner at 5AM during a program called _Soundtrack_ on WBAI. They played music from the series and answered listener's questions about the show. The guest on the program was from the United States branch of the Prisoner Appreciation Society. I'm afraid I don't remember his name. Unfortunately, I didn't hear anything about the HHGTTG or Prisoner shows until very early saturday morning. I was too groggy to stay awake and tape record the entire show on saturday morning! Drat! Be Seeing You. Darrell Ringler ARPAnet: <dringler@ardec> <dringler@ardec.arpa> ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 14:34:22 GMT From: well!slf@caip.rutgers.edu (Sharon Lynne Fisher) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs David S. Cargo writes: >JOHNNY QUEST >Prime time animated series of the '60s. Now coming out in comic >book form. First of all, it's Jonny Quest. Second of all, it's coming back this year! I read an article about it a month or so ago. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 18:42:48 GMT From: ihlpa!pkb@caip.rutgers.edu (Benson) Subject: SF-TV programs Ive been reading about the SF-TV programs for the last couple of days. No one has mentioned the original tv SUPERMAN with George Reeves. ( GASP! HE WAS MY IDOL WHEN I WAS A LITTLE GIRL ) Or how about ONE STEP BEYOND ???????? Of couse if I remember right they always claimed to true stories. Something about 'truth being stranger than fiction'. Pam ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 19:19:54 GMT From: unc!melnick@caip.rutgers.edu (Alex Melnick) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs (errata) From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) >Billy Mumy wasn't a household name, but he wasn't exactly >"non-descript", either. He appeared in two TWILIGHT ZONE episodes >(one of which, "It's a GOOD Life!", was remade in the movie, with >Mumy making a cameo appearance). Mumy also has the distinction, if >memory serves, of being the first male to be kissed on-screen by >Bridget Bardot. :-) I'm told that Billy Mumy is today a member of the comedy/music duo known as Barnes & Barnes. Whether he plays Art Barnes or his twin brother Artie Barnes, I'm not sure. (Barnes & Barnes are best known for their song "Fish Heads," released on Rhino Records on a fish-head-shaped record, and their banned-from-the-air-waves- because-Spielberg-threatened-to-sue "I Had Sex with ET," later re-recorded as "I Had Sex on T.V.") Then again, I could be wrong. Alex mcnc!unc!melnick ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 17:28:52 GMT From: umcp-cs!tewok@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Morrison) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs There is one show that I remember that no one I have ever mentioned it to has ever heard of. The show was called "Gigantor", and was possibly the prototype of the robot shows, such as "Johnny Socko and His Flying Robot". I think it was Japanese, but I'm not sure. Does anyone remember ever seeing this show? Is my memory fading in my old age? Is there a Great Pumpkin? Wayne Morrison Parallel Computation Lab University of Maryland (301)454-7690 ARPA: tewok@brillig UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!tewok ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 86 20:50:54 GMT From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs tewok@umcp-cs.UUCP (Wayne Morrison) writes: >There is one show that I remember that no one I have ever mentioned >it to has ever heard of. The show was called "Gigantor", and was >possibly the prototype of the robot shows, such as "Johnny Socko >and His Flying Robot". I think it was Japanese, but I'm not sure. >Does anyone remember ever seeing this show? Is my memory fading in >my old age? Is there a Great Pumpkin? Of course, I remember! Don't worry; your memory is intact. But, does anyone remember "Astro Boy"? I don't. kaufman@orion.arpa kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 19:01:45 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: Baen Books vs. Bookstores > This price is better than is offered to retailers, at least to the > smaller specialty stores But then DV and ACoH could order through the Baen Book Club instead. They would still make money (and more of it, apparently) from those people who buy books occasionally enough that they don't want to have to order 10 at a time from a single publisher. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 22:46:56 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: The Doomsday Effect: A baaaaaaaad book from Baen grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) > So what else is new? Jim Baen is the shlock editor of the season. I didn't say it was new. I simply mentioned that the book was from Baen so that the Baen-bashers out there could properly categorize the book. Had it been published by by anybody else, I might not have mentioned the publisher. > On the other hand, this presents a weak point where new authors > may be able to get something published and get started in the > field. ACE books held this distinction for a long time, but at > least Baen seems to treat his writers fairly. I agree that this is good, as far as it goes. But I'd really druther he treat his *readers* fairly, as that is what I am one of. > So if you see something with his name on it, take the time to read > a little before you plunk down any money, and be prepared to > ignore plenty of typos. And here we have the main reason I mentioned it at all. My normal practice is to read quite a bit of the novel, the blurb, and sometimes even the ending (I'm not spoiler-phobic) before buying. This normally keeps me from falling for reprints, extremely bad stuff, and the more obviously bogus books. I felt it was my Sacred Duty as a Concerned Reader of Quality Fiction to speak up, because this one was subtle enough to pass my in-front-of-rack testing, but bad enough to infuriate me to the point of being sorry I'd bought it. Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 86 00:06:11 GMT From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: Sexy SF Has anyone read Resnick's recent "Tales of the Velvet Comet" series? A friend of mine recommended it, but - ahem - let's just say our tastes in fiction frequently differ. I'd be interested in hearing other comments. For sex-oriented science fiction, I can recommend without reservation Spinrad's two latest novels, "The Void Captain's Tale" and "Child of Fortune". Spinrad handles not only sexual but mystical themes with a grace and beauty unmatched in science fiction or fantasy. Tim Maroney {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 02:07:30 GMT From: calmasd.CALMA!cjn@caip.rutgers.edu (Cheryl Nemeth) Subject: T shirt Whatever happened to the sf-lovers t-shirt? ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 20:08:30 GMT From: ulowell!rickheit@caip.rutgers.edu (Erich W Rickheit) Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment I have a (half-wriiten) story along these lines. Some mad professor or other develops a time machine that can go no further than a half-hour either way (for mathematical reasons that our hero doesn't understand and so never appear in the story--SF plot device #1233) Several days later, in the empty lab, there is the characteristic blue light of the time-traveller, and a dark figure appears with a pistol in hand. He places it in a desk drawer, and exits the lab. Some twenty minutes later, one of the lab assistants (a lovely young lass) enters arguing with a familiar dark figure. Angrily, he pulls the gun out of the drawer, and shoots her dead. He then goes to the time machine, and transports himself back a half-hour. There is the characteristic blue light of the time-traveller, and the dark figure appears with the pistol in his hand. He places it in a desk drawer, and exits the lab. An hour later, the police arrive on the scene, and find the body. There are plenty of suspects (the girl was an obnoxious bitch who made herself a lot of enemies) but the murder weapon is untraceable. Our hero, a police detective, must find the killer, and a murder weapon which does not logically exist! I have plenty of holes to iron out, of course (such as, who loads the pistol?) but that, avoid the character development, was the base of the plot. The possibilities of a nonexistent item appearing within a time loop though, are staggering. What else could you do with this? Am I the only one to have ever thought of such a thing? UUCP: ...wanginst!ulowell!rickheit USnail: Erich Rickheit 85 Gershom Ave, #2 Lowell, MA 01854 Phone: (617) 453-1753 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Aug 86 0936-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #261 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 20 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 261 Today's Topics: Books - Rick Brant & Best of 1986, Films - Flight of the Navigator & The Fly, Television - Doctor Who & More SF TV (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - Time Travel (2 msgs) & Wagner & Baen Books ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Aug 86 17:58:38 GMT From: ur-cvsvax!smg@caip.rutgers.edu (Susan Garnsey) Subject: Rick Brant books (was Re: SF on TV -- Johnny Quest) I never saw Johnny Quest, but the description sure sounds like my first intro to SF, the series of Rick Brant books. Rick, his scientist dad (head of a scientific foundation on Spindrift Island with specialists in just about everything), his friend/ex-Marine Scotty, and their occasional Indian companion (?name?) explore the unknown, from caves in Tibet to the bottom of the Pacific to Egyptian pyramids to earth orbit. Anybody else remember these? Better yet, anyone have copies they'd like to sell? I've been keeping my eye out for used copies for years, but have yet to find them anywhere. Susan Garnsey ....allegra!rochester!ur-cvsvax!smg ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 17:21:01 GMT From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: Best of early 1986? Well, nothing really stands out for me from early 1986, but I know a book that is *about* to come out which should be dynamite. It's called *BARKING DOGS* by Terence M. Green (Bluejay, October). The F&SF novella that it's expanded from was brilliant. If the book-length version is even half as good I think we're talking Nebula contender. Cheers, Robert J. Sawyer c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Date: 16 Aug 86 05:09:17 GMT From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton) Subject: Re: Movie FLIGHT OF THE NAVIGATOR From: "David S. Cargo" <Cargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> >Does anybody know what seens were shot in Norway? Hard to say, probably lots of the interiors, and probably because of some funny deal. Nothing in the film requires a trip to Norway, but then nothing in Star Wars needed to be shot in England, either. >I saw a trailer for the movie where the voice of MAX was different >than in the movie itself (which was credited to Paul Mall). It >sounded to me like the voice of MCP from the movie TRON. Does >anybody know who did the MCP voice? Does anybody know if Paul Mall >is famous for doing anything else? It says "Paul Mall" in the credits, but that's just a joke, I think. It's actually Paul Rubens (or however you spell it) who is better known to the world as his character "Pee-Wee Herman." I greatly disliked it when the computer turned into Pee-Wee Herman (aside from the fact that the boy, being from 1978, would have no memory of such a character.) I felt the first half of this movie was quite good, reasonably done SF. The second half degenerated into cute voices, gags, cute creatures and a stupid, sappy ending. Much what you expect from Disney today, but not what he used to give us when he was alive. I don't mind cute, but this stuff was inserted for no other purpose than the cheap laugh, and took up too much of the latter half of the film. SPOILER: What I'm really sick of is all the stories that spend all day telling you how, "we can't go back in time, it's too dangerous" until they do it anyway and all is well. I guess kids watching this movie don't think about how the other characters in the film had their whole lives erased just so the kid wouldn't have to adjust, but it sure bothered me. Disney movies were supposed to be simulating to children without insulting adults. Brad Templeton Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: 16 Aug 86 14:40:36 GMT From: unirot!dtt@caip.rutgers.edu (David Temkin) Subject: The Fly This movie has to be one of the most disgusting films ever made. Not that I didn't like it, but it was indisputably revolting -- LOTS of slime, blood, and so on. But the special effects were great (if you can bear to watch them :-) ), the suspense was good, and the acting was credible. Jeff Goldblum does a great job in the title role -- his gestures and mannerisms change as he is transmogrified into a fly. The problem with the film, I thought, is that while trying to be a gross-them-out horror flick, it also tries to provide humor and a love-triangle subplot. This was too much for the filmakers to pull off properly, but it's still a good movie. It even has a few funny moments. And if you though Aliens was disgusting.... One thing bothers me about the plot. I had just finished reading Greg Bear's Blood Music when I went to see the movie, so perhaps this is not on target. But it seemed to me that a lot of The Fly "borrowed" from this book (or perhaps the book borrowed from the original Fly, which I did not see). Specifically, the main character is supposed to be a nerdy scientist. He does something to his genes. His sex life, physical condition, etc. improve radically. Then the changes start to come. His body begins to change into something unrecognizable. From there on the two plots diverge, but there is a remarkable similarity. Or is this just a standard sf/horror thing to do? David Temkin ...caip!unirot!dtt or ...caip!topaz!unipress!dt (better) ------------------------------ Date: 12 August 1986, 14:51:16 EDT From: "Brent T. Hailpern" <BTH@ibm.com> Subject: Dr. Who For your information... WEDW (Ch. 49, Fairfield, CT) has started rebroadcasting Dr. Who from the first episode (An Unearthly Child) with Dr. Who #1 (Hartnell?). The show is broadcast 6pm and 11pm and is available on cable in some parts of Westchester County, NY. Brent bth@ibm.com ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 86 19:27:55 GMT From: ihlpf!soussan@caip.rutgers.edu (Soussan) Subject: re: SF-TV programs I remember a few that I don't think have been mentioned yet: THE INVISIBLE MAN (?) David McCallum (of Man from UNCLE fame) was a scientist who somehow irradiated himself (isn't that how it usually works? :-)) into permanent invisibilty. He had to wear a rubber mask, gloves, etc. to be seen. His wife was played by Melinda Fee, but I don't remember the characters' names. This didn't last too long, but I kind-of liked it. ? Yet another invisible man type of story. The "hero" was played by Ben Murphy, and he wore a watch which controlled his invisibility (he could only be invisible for 15 min. a day). This was a movie, which was turned into a series which didn't last too long. There were also a few other live-action Saturday Morning SF type shows that I recall that I haven't seen mentioned yet. There were two shows using the same special effects which I always mix together. In one of the two shows (SPACE ACADEMY?), James Doohan (Scotty of ST, of course) played the commander of a school set in a mobile asteroid. The other (JASON AND THE ASTRONAUTS? JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS?) was like a serial, each episode ending with a cliff-hanger (like the Danger Island segments of the Banana Splits Show, but that's another net). The lead character (Jason) and his sidekicks (I think a robot peepo was there too, or maybe peepo was in the space academy one?) were always running into this same evil space pirate from another galaxy with a high-tech patch over one eye. EARTH 2? ARK 2? (not the movie Earth 2 but maybe based on it?) A group of people in a huge enclosed mobile laboratory/motel/ hospital/etc., complete with detachable dune-buggy run around post WW-III earth helping people and trying to restore civilization again. I think a chimpanzee (talking? or at least able to understand english?) went with them. Can't forget BATTLESTAR GALACTICA and its sequel GALACTICA 84 (or whatever year) and BUCK ROGERS IN THE TWENTY FIFTH CENTURY. On second thought... :-) Also there were super-hero type shows which may not be appropriate for this net, so I'll just title them and wait for the flames - THE INCREDIBLE HULK, SPIDER MAN, WONDER WOMAN (I'll stop here so as not to provoke too much nastiness :-)) Finally, I recall the title music to an SF show, but I'm pretty sure I never watched it. The opening was animated, and there was a gorilla or monkey in it somehow. The first bit of the opening is: It's about time It's about space It's about men from the human race Daniel Soussan at AT&T Bell Laboratories, Naperville IL Flames to: ...!ihnp4!ihlpf!soussan (maybe) ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 86 18:16:30 GMT From: ihlpa!pkb@caip.rutgers.edu (Benson) Subject: SF-TV programs How about MY FAVORITE MARTIAN. It had Ray Walston (??) as the Martian. I loved it when he made the little antennas come up and disappeared. Bill Bixby was also in it as the earthling trying to hide the Martian until he could fix his space ship. It seems to me Bill Bixby hid the space ship in the garage and lived in an apartment above the garage. He also had trouble with a busybody landlady. No one has mentioned BEWITCHED (love that nose) or I DREAM OF GENIE (when Larry Hagman was still a nice guy). ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 86 15:01:53 GMT From: dartvax!chelsea@caip.rutgers.edu (Karen Christenson) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs One that just popped back into foreground: LAND OF THE GIANTS (or something close). This intercontinental flight - sort of like the shuttle, it was a space flight - goes through some vision-obscuring phenomenon and winds up landing on a place like Earth but not quite Earth. And they are about six inches tall in the eyes of the new place's populace. Of course, the government of this place wants them captured and "studied" (horrors!). So they have to avoid capture, they have to get the ship working again, they have to survive in the great (big) outdoors. Karen Christenson ...!dartvax!chelsea ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 86 23:31:34 GMT From: jhardest @ Wheeler-EMH Subject: Time Travel or If only they had TIME TRAVEL: The talk of traveling back in time and depositing some futuristic device reminds me of a discussion I had with a bunch of friends oone day long ago in college. What weapon/device would change the course of a historical battle engagement or important incident. Motorcycle would be nice for that runner in the Ancient Greek battle of Marathon who ran all the way to Athens to say victory and died. Claymore mines at the Battle of the Alamo for the Texans of course. A bulletproof vest for Stonewall Jackson - a good tactician. No Smoking sign on the Hindenburg... yea yea I'm sick.. A bulletproof Mercedes for Archduke Ferdinand (The man who got WWI started by being assassinated) A AWACS for the Americans at Pearl Harbor in 1941 or the Nimitz (Hahahahaha). Armored cars for the Charge of the Light Brigade. Electric blankets and footies and generators for Napolean for the March to Russia .... or Snow moblies for the way back. Fire engines at the Burning of Rome for Nero I can not think of anything else .. how about what can the rest of the reader's think of? ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 86 23:21:49 GMT From: jhardest @ Wheeler-EMH Subject: Time TRAVEL - An Insane Approach to Time Travel All this interest in time travel prompts me to comment on the subject. It was said that if you take a gold coin and send it forward in time when you reach that point in time you will have two coins. Well I think you would only have one coin. If the gold coin that is lying on your desk is time travelled to the future say one day you could no longer find it until the next day. ***warning --- oblique thought HMMM... I wonder if one of a pair of sock can time travel .. **** main stream If I can travel back in time with my IBM PC and printer in hand to say the year 1200 what wonders I could work. I really could not work any wonders .. one I don't have a power source for my computer ; two , I would not be able to communicate to anyone.. since they believe I am the DEVIL or one of his daemons (snicker) But, I was a knowledgable person .. say a twentieth cenrtury Renainassance (sic) man or jack of all trades who knew my hard sciences - physics, chemistry, etc - I could travel back in time to a remote area say Scandinavia around 850 AD and build the twentieth century there... things would go great as long as I am alive and have power over the people .. in one shape or another. ANOTHER THOUGHT OF TIME TRAVEL: MAYBE when one travels back in time .. since supposedly the past is immutable we would arrive in the past as non-physical coporal beings -- similar to ghosts - but we could just spectate the events. MAYBE If one travels to the future one goes nowhere since the future has not been determined. MAYBE when one travel through time one starts a new timeline . John Hardesty ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Aug 86 11:42 EST From: WOTAN%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Of Wagnerian Rings Alastair Milne writes: > (I have never seen a satisfactory explanation of how the Nibelung, > from whom the Ring had already been taken, retained sufficient > power to cause the curse.) My explanation is that Alberich the Ring-forger is a different creature from Alberich the Rhine-maiden chaser: bitter, sinister and powerful. When the Rhine-maidens reveal the Rhine-gold secret, they say "Only he who has renounced love ... will know the magic/spell that will make a ring out of the gold". I think that much more than the art of gold-smithying was included in that knowledge; Alberich was able to instruct Mime to forge the Tarnhelm for instance. Also, from that point and throughout the whole Ring Cycle, Alberich is referred to as a sinister force (and not, for instance, "that runt Alby" :-)) Erda, in her prophesy to Wotan (as related in Die Walkuere) talks of "the dark enemy of love". Wotan says that Alberich was able to coerce (maybe with whatever was left to him of his powers, maybe with gold) a woman to bear him a son, Hagen. Also, Wotan is well aware that, were Alberich to get hold of the Ring, he would turn Walhall's heroes against the Gods; but Wotan still has the Valkyries bring him slain heroes. My guess is that he still needs them to defend himself (maybe to scare enemies away, as todays wise leaders try to by stockpiling nuclear weapons in their hallowed castles :-)) Well, I'm aware that some of this stuff is quite off the mark... but it will do to start a discussion. After all, the Ring may not be SF but it certainly is fantasy... I don't think it matters it made its first appearance in Bayreuth and not in the form of 4 $3.25 paper- backs :-) george barbanis ------------------------------ Date: 16 Aug 86 16:18:55 GMT From: gouvea@h-sc4.harvard.edu (fernando gouvea) Subject: Re: Baen books brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes: >Here Baen books has made a remarkable offer to the regular book >reader. "I'm offering you the same bulk deals I give to dealers. >Doesn't matter who you are, buy ten books, get a deal." > >Remarkably fair of them. I am surprised to see people jump to the >defence of the retailing establishment at the expense of the book >customer. The point is that we depend on the booksellers for access to a large variety of books. I would certainly not want to deal individually with all the publishers whose books I have bought or will buy---to say nothing of those books one discovers in a bookstore without ever having heard of. As a reader, I want healthy booksellers around, as many of them as possible, and preferably not affiliated to big national chains. A second related point is that there is some suspicion that the Baen plan also hurts writers. There again, the reader is the one that eventually gets hurt, when the writers he or she likes go bankrupt, change publishers, give up writing, etc., and when new writers are pushed away. Fernando Gouvea gouvea%h-sc4@HARVARD.EDU ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Aug 86 1139-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #262 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 22 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 262 Today's Topics: Books - Clancy & Myers & Resnick & Rick Brant & Star Trek, Films - Movies on Video & The Princess Bride & Howard the Duck (2 msgs), Television - Land of the Lost & More SF TV (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - Time Travel (2 msgs) & SF in the Soviet Union & SF-Lovers Party at Worldcon & SF-Lovers T-Shirts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Aug 86 16:33:04 GMT From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (S. Luke Jones) Subject: Re: Tom Clancy: Red Storm Rising > Tom Clancy's new novel "Red Storm Rising" is a recommended read. > It's cut very much from the same vein as his first book "The Hunt > For Red October". (If you haven't read it, get it first: it's out > in paperback; the new one is in hardback.) I bought Red Storm Rising the weekend of the 9th and only managed to get through the first 150 pages that weekend. This Saturday I managed to get through the next 500 pages in one (extended) sitting. It's that good. Also, B.Dalton/Waldenbooks is selling it for $12.95, which is not bad, since the paperback will probably be $5.95 when it comes out a year from now. S. Luke Jones (...ihnp4!mtung!slj) AT&T Information Systems, Middletown, NJ, USA ------------------------------ Date: 17 Aug 86 01:06:04 GMT From: sjc@purdue.edu (Steve J Chapin) Subject: reference from Myers' _Silverlock_ My wife and I have both recently read _Silverlock_, and of course we spent quite a bit of time picking out all the references. One that I couldn't place is the reference to the talking horses and the Yahoos. Could anyone out there send me mail and clear up the matter? Thanks, Steve Chapin ARPA: sjc@mordred.cs.purdue.edu UUCP: ...!purdue!sjc ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 86 17:21:14 GMT From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner) Subject: Tales of the Velvet Comet tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >Has anyone read Resnick's recent "Tales of the Velvet Comet" >series? A friend of mine recommended it, but - ahem - let's just >say our tastes in fiction frequently differ. I'd be interested in >hearing other comments. I read the first Velvet Comic and found it what I call "mentally transparent". My eyes ran over the words and I turned the pages and when it was done, I picked up a different book because I wanted to read something. I find this phenomenon interesting when it happens. I was never actively bored or turned off (and certainly not turned on); it just didn't affect me in any way. To be less personal (but still subjective, of course), the story was predictable, the characters bland, and the setting far more mundane than you think an orbiting brothel would be. Yes, there is some amount of sex. I don't remember if it was explicit or not. That should tell you something. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 86 15:01:11 GMT From: cfa!mink@caip.rutgers.edu (Doug Mink) Subject: Re: Rick Brant books (was Re: SF on TV -- Johnny Quest) From Susan Garnsey <314@ur-cvsvax.UUCP>: > I never saw Johnny Quest, but the description sure sounds like my > first intro to SF, the series of Rick Brant books. Rick, his > scientist dad (head of a scientific foundation on Spindrift Island > with specialists in just about everything), his friend/ex-Marine > Scotty, and their occasional Indian companion (?name?) explore the > unknown, from caves in Tibet to the bottom of the Pacific to > Egyptian pyramids to earth orbit. Anybody else remember these? > Better yet, anyone have copies they'd like to sell? I've been > keeping my eye out for used copies for years, but have yet to find > them anywhere. I was a Rick Brant fan, too; I have 10 or 12 of the books. I started reading them in junior high school, where there was a complete set, at least up to that time. The MIT Science Fiction Society has a complete set up to the last one, published in 1971 or so. There was one computer scientist in the Spindrift Foundation, and several of the books use state-of-the-art (at the time they were written--mid-50's) AI concepts. I watched a few episodes of Johnny Quest, but the plots were too simple and the detailed backgrounds of the books just weren't there. I used to have a ritual of reading through the whole series once a year; Tom Swift and the Hardy Boys, the more widely read Grossett & Dunlap series for boys never held up to re-reading as well. Doug Mink {seismo|ihnp4}!harvard!cfa!mink mink%cfa.UUCP@harvard.harvard.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed 13 Aug 86 11:20:48-PDT From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA> Subject: Star Trek In the novelization of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan the complete background of Saavik is covered including her parentage (the exact details escape me at this moment but I believe her Vulcan mother was raped by a Romulan). ------------------------------ Date: Wed 13 Aug 86 11:20:48-PDT From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA> Subject: VIDEO MOVIES Re: The list of movies I posted. I realize that the original request was for recommended movies but as I mentioned quality exists with the individual. Since the question still exists on what are recommended films what I am offering to do is to compile a ratings scheme based on viewer response. If you have seen any of the films I have listed then rate the film from 1 to 5 with 5 being "must see" and 1 as "skip it". I will from time-to-time post the latest (average) rating score. I am still compiling more film listings and will publish them soon. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Aug 1986 17:38:13 PDT Subject: Princess Bride Film From: Tom Galloway <GALLOWAY@B.ISI.EDU> From the August 17th L.A. Times Calendar section; Films beginning production this week: The Princess Bride (Buttercup Films Ltd.) Shooting in London. A satirical swashbuckling story of romance and adventure from the novel by William Goldman. Producer Andrew Scheinman, Director Rob Reiner, Screenwriter Goldman (all right!). Stars Cary Elwes, Cary Sarandon, Christopher Guest, Wallace Shawn, Mandy Patinkin, Robin Wright, and Andre the Giant (a wrestler I think). Distributor and release date undetermined. tyg ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 86 14:56:33 GMT From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone) Subject: Re: HOWARD THE DUCK!!! If you're going to see this movie, you better do so quickly. It is not even showing in any movies in the NY area that I could find listed in the papers. Phil Paone ------------------------------ From: watnot!jafischer@caip.rutgers.edu (Jonathan Fischer) Subject: Re: Howard the (Lame) Duck--Avoid This Crummy Movie! Date: 18 Aug 86 13:14:27 GMT francois@yale-cheops.UUCP (Charles B. Francois) writes: >wheel@utastro.UUCP (unthinkingly) writes: >>Sheesh. We need more reviewers who =LIKE= movies. > >Oh? I'd settle for better movies. No, I agree with Sheesh there. This type of movie is obviously made for a certain "type" of movie audience. From the list of other "terrible" (in your opinion) movies that you would compare HTD to, it's obvious that it's this overall type of movie that you can't stand, and therefore it's downright silly for you to post such a blazingly harsh review of it. You should have said, "I hated this movie. Despised it, even. But I generally hate this type of movie, and some people don't. So you may not hate it so much." Obviously, some people have enjoyed the movie. I haven't even SEEN it yet, but I can tell that it's the kind of mindless fun that I probably would enjoy, so I got as incensed as Sheesh did about that review. Oops, I've obviously used the word "obviously" too much. Jonathan ------------------------------ Date: 16 Aug 86 21:48:13 GMT From: langbein@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (John E. Langbein) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs Not to get redundant, But that xould mean that there are 2 Hollys & 2 Wills. After about a season or 2, the 3 escape due to a paradox and the gateway of time. Anyway, as the 3 left, the same 3 came in (hence the paradox). Anyway, later on, something happens to the father, & the father's brother goes through the mists to join the 2 kids. So, if those 3 left, there would be 2 of each of the kids. (I don't quite know where father #2 ended up, somewhere in time since the Uncle had to get in). John Langbein ------------------------------ Date: 16 Aug 86 22:59:40 GMT From: langbein@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (John E. Langbein) Subject: Sci-Fi TV (again) I just started reading this section, but I noticed no mention of the longest running sci-fi show in the discussion on TV Sci-Fi. How about Doctor Who? If we want to talk animated, there's always The Jetsons. Also, I remember many many years back a Saturday morning show called Dr. Shrinker which had Billy Barty as a Mad Doctor's assistant. This Mad doctor shrank people (Hence the name) There is also The Lost Saucer which had Jim Neighbors & Ruth Buzzi as a couple of Robots. They traveled through time & space in a flying saucer with 2 earth companions (a kid & his baby sitter)& a thing called a Dorse (Half horse, half dog). What about that lousy show called V? (Please don't criticize my opinion) Then there is the Twilight Zone (Funny that this was left out with episodes like a visit to a small planet or something like that). How about SOAP? Remember that show, with Richard Mulligan as Burt Cambell who thought he could turn invisible? He was abducted by a spaceship & his wife did it with an alien that was made to look like Burt? Of course, Benson (a spin-off from SOAP) brought Sci-Fi in on one episode (actually two if you want the appearance of Jessica's ghost to count). How about SEEING THINGS? This is probably my favorite detective show. The show is from Canada and is about this newspaper reporter that has the ability to see in the past what took place when he is near an object that was involved with the crime. Is that show still running in Canada (meaning New episodes)? One last Animated show. The Flintstones became partially Sci-Fi with the addition of the character Gazoo(?). John Langbein ------------------------------ From: bigbang!bam@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu Date: Sun, 17 Aug 86 13:47:19 pdt Subject: Lost in space Did I miss something when Lost in Space and Time Tunnel were cancelled? As far as I can recall, both groups, the Robinsons and the two time travellers never returned. Did either of those shows end cleanly? Along the same lines did "The Invaders" {A Quinn Martin production} ever get discovered/killed/deported?? Or is David Jansen still out there warning people about the dangers of Cerebral Hemorrage?? Bret Marquis bigbang!bam@nosc.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 86 15:06:38 GMT From: well!slf@caip.rutgers.edu (Sharon Lynne Fisher) Subject: Re: Sci-Fi TV (again) Also, nobody's mentioned Sixth Sense with David Hartman; Mission: Impossible with a cast of dozens; Night Gallery, Serling's Twilight Zone clone; Night Stalker with Darrin McGavin. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Aug 86 18:58:22 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Re: Sending material through time This was proposed in a science fiction story I read a while back (I forget title and author). A scientist invented a time machine and decided to send a chemistry book back to the ancient Greeks. He succeeded. However, the man he had hired to translate the chemistry book only translated the parts of the book that the ancient Greeks knew (basic atomic structure, etc.) st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 86 06:11:43 GMT From: ism780c!jim@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Balter) Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment rickheit@ulowell.UUCP (Erich W Rickheit) writes: > I have plenty of holes to iron out, of course (such as, who >loads the pistol?) but that, avoid the character development, was >the base of the plot. The possibilities of a nonexistant item >appearing within a time loop though, are staggering. What else >could you do with this? Am I the only one to have ever thought of >such a thing? I think Heinlein has been there before you. Consider the character(s) in "All You Zombies" who is his/her own parents, and who drafts himself into the Time Service. And while the dictionary in "By His Bootstraps" does not appear via a time loop, the information in it does. Your mechanism strikes me strongly as Deus Ex Machina, unless you can explain why the character should expect to find a gun in the drawer when he opens it to shoot his victim, since he has not yet planted the gun at that point, nor why he should expect the drawer to be empty when he goes back to plant the gun; there is no way for him to know that his action was the cause of the gun being there. Heinlein's treatment of the dictionary is much more subtle. And in both his classic stories, the character never expects any of what happens, until he reaches a point where he already knows that it was his own future actions that set things into motion, and acts accordingly. Jim Balter ({sdcrdcf!ism780c,ima}!jim) ------------------------------ Date: 17 Aug 86 00:37:44 GMT From: uvacs!mac@caip.rutgers.edu (Alex Colvin) Subject: Re: FOOTFALL in the Soviet Union >they decide it wasn't and returned it. What was notable was that >their immediate reaction to something unknown was, "It is >forbidden"--just like the Orwellian "Everything not required is >forbidden." Then I was called in. Soviet Customs types like to confiscate things for their personal use. He was probably a Science Fiction Fan. The "Forbidden" here isn't necessary policy, just a good line for the tourists. ------------------------------ Date: 19 August 1986, 01:29:44 EDT From: "Nicholas J. Simicich" <NJS@ibm.com> Subject: SF-Lovers Party. I'm going to be holding the Sf-Lovers party at Worldcon this year. It will be on Sunday night, starting at 8:30. I will have others sharing my room, as I usually do, and they didn't really mind me inviting everyone on the network to a party, but they insisted on a few groundrules: NO SMOKING. Closed party. Lots of beer. Last call around 1:30, through by 2:00. I kicked it around, and decided why not. I met some of you at Boskone, and now I'll get to meet more of you. You'll be able to recognize me easily, as I'll be the one just inside the door, dressed in sackcloth, calling: Alms! Alms! oc.trei@cu20b.columbia.edu will continue to handle the mailing list. I plan to bring an IBM Portable (almost) PC and a modem, as well as a printer. Perhaps I should also bring the last couple of months of SF-Lovers. Someone else will have to bring the ID that we can use to log on remotely, if we want to put in a convention report. Look for the @ party notices. I expect to be in the Hilton. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 21 Aug 1986 20:07-EDT From: jmturn%ringwld.UUCP@CCA.CCA.COM Subject: What ever happened to the SF-LOVERS T-shirt Well, you {fnord} see, the printing company took {fnord} a lot longer to {fnord} get them made up then had been promised. I am {fnord} expecting them to {fnord} arrive in the next few days, but this obviously leaves no time {fnord} to mail them out before {fnord} Atlanta. Therefore {fnord}: (IF (AND "The shirts arrive before Atlanta" "I have time to pack them") THEN (PROGN (BRING-ALL-SHIRTS-TO-WORLDCON) (MAIL-LEFTOVERS)) ELSE (MAIL-ALL-SHIRTS-AFTER-WORLDCON)) Sorry about this folks, but I did send them in to the printers with plenty of time to spare... Look for me at Worldcon, I'll be (I HOPE!) wearing the new SFL t-shirt... James Turner ARPA ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA UUCP {decvax|sri-unix|ima|linus}!cca!ringwld!jmturn MAIL 329 Ward Street; Newton, MA 02159 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Aug 86 1208-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #263 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 22 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 263 Today's Topics: Books - Jackson, Films - Silent Running & The Fly & Forbidden Planet, Television - Lost in Space & Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Baen Books & Time Travel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Aug 86 11:52:49 GMT From: utah-gr!donn@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Shirley Jackson (re: Lest we forget) I'm glad to see that someone has brought up Shirley Jackson. I've just recently discovered her work, and I'm having a sugar-bowl of fun reading it. It amazes me that so few other people seem to have heard of her; I only went to look for her name in the bookstore when I read an unexpectedly effusive appreciation of her by Stephen King... Even then it took several years before I first saw copies of THE HAUNTING OF HILL HOUSE and WE HAVE ALWAYS LIVED IN THE CASTLE on the shelves. Penguin appears to be publishing Jackson's novels in paperback -- if you see them, grab them: you may never have another chance. (It's interesting that Penguin printed these books in the States instead of the UK; it's amusing too to read their protection notice, which begins, 'Except in the United States of America, this book is sold subject to the condition etc.' Doesn't this country have some of the strangest publishing laws in the world?) HILL HOUSE is a ghost story which sneakily preys on your preconceptions of ghost stories before shaking them down. Four people gather to challenge a haunted house which has been the scene of several fatal accidents and suicides over the years, a house which has driven away every previous visitor within days of their arrival. Just another haunted house story, right? It becomes apparent after the four arrive, however, that the things which go bump in the night are perhaps the least of their worries... I was enchanted with the characters in this story, all of whom are vivid and most of whom display a charm which is so exquisitely rare that they kept me smiling for joy on almost every page. Be aware, however, that this is a terribly intellectual ghost story and hardly any blood is spilled and hardly anyone is killed... Despite this, the book kept me on the edge of my chair (well, okay, my comfy couch) throughout, although I had to learn to be very suspicious of plot turns which seem to be anticlimaxes. This book is a classic. CASTLE is a comedy about ghosts; it makes a nice complement to HILL HOUSE. Merricat, Constance and Uncle Julian are the only survivors of an arsenic-laced meal which killed all the other members of the Blackwood house. Constance was acquitted of the murders in a sensational trial, and now the three live quietly by themselves in the 'castle' in the forest beyond the village. But Merricat has a terrible foreboding that trouble is coming again... There is a certain amount of suspense in this novel as you try to decide who really done it, but in terms of the plot this is completely irrelevant; a little bit of misdirection which left me laughing helplessly as I turned the last pages. I have to disagree with Richard Bleiler's characterization of Jackson's themes as 'cruelty, the unknown, and strangeness' -- the love affair in CASTLE will, er, haunt you a long time. I'll leave you with a little excerpt of Mary Catherine's trip to her hiding place with Jonas the cat, and hope that you'll get some of the flavor: When I left the long field I went between the four apple trees we called our orchard, and along the path toward the creek. My box of silver dollars buried by the creek was safe. Near the creek, well hidden, was one of my hiding places, which I had made carefully and used often. I had torn away two or three low bushes and smoothed the ground; all around were more bushes and tree branches, and the entrance was covered by a branch which almost touched the ground. It was not really necessary to be so secret, since no one ever came looking for me here, but I liked to lie inside with Jonas and know that I could never be found. I used leaves and branches for a bed, and Constance had given me a blanket. The trees around and overhead were so thick that it was always dry inside and on Sunday morning I lay there with Jonas, listening to his stories. All cat stories start with the statement: 'My mother, who was the first cat, told me this,' and I lay with my head close to Jonas and listened. There was no change coming, I thought here, only spring; I was wrong to be so frightened. The days would get warmer, and Uncle Julian would sit in the sun, and Constance would laugh when she worked in the garden, and it would always be the same. Jonas went on and on ('And then we sang! And then we sang!') and the leaves moved overhead and it would always be the same. Damn, I wish I could write like that, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 86 05:44:43 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Silent Running movie song (where the title comes from) steve@bambi.UUCP (Steve Miller) writes: >Sort of a silly title, really. After all, "In space, no one >can hear >[your engines]." It seems to me I read that the original idea for the film was supposed to be a tense human vs. aliens film. It was supposed to be a science fiction version of RUN SILENT RUN DEEP. The concept of the film changed (and not for the better) but the kept the title. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 86 05:12:27 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: THE FLY THE FLY A film review by Mark R. Leeper Capsule review: The remake of THE FLY is more for fans of David Cronenberg films than for fans of the original story. In several ways the new film is an improvement, but overall the original is still a much better film. Don't see this film after you eat. Earlier this summer we saw the release of INVADERS FROM MARS. In my review I had said that I had missed seeing the original when I was the proper age to enjoy it. I fared somewhat better with the original THE FLY. I was eight years old when I saw the original at a drive-in. I was too young to be objective about the scientifically improbable plot. The script was spell-binding to an 8-year-old--not surprising since it was written by James Clavell, who went on to write novels like SHOGUN and NOBLE HOUSE. It seemed to me that Andre Delambre had everything anyone could ever want and lost it all in a moment of carelessness--a tragedy more affecting than anything Sophocles ever wrote. It was with a combination of expectation and fear that I heard that David Cronenberg--who made films like SCANNERS and DEAD ZONE--was going to remake one of my favorite films. Well, apparently the original story of THE FLY was put on a matter transmitter with Cronenberg and what came out was part THE FLY and part Cronenberg. Cronenberg has always been fascinated with the idea of having physical deformity echo emotional state. Since the fusion of man and fly affects both the mind and the body, it is obvious why this project appealed to him. Unlike the original, the change in the remake is gradual and the audience gets a chance to see the thought processes as a human gradually transforms into an amalgam of human and insect. This is a theme only hinted at in the original film--Andre says that his new brain is telling him to do strange things--but it becomes one of the main virtues of the remake. The story, if you missed the original and haven't figured it out by now, has a scientist (Seth Brundle, played by Jeff Goldblum) go through a matter transmitter with a fly and come out oddly mixed with the fly. In the remake a computer has reconstructed the two with mixed DNA but with a human exterior. Then slowly the fly DNA starts transforming the scientist. The 1958 version depended for shock value on a realistic-looking fly head for the human. This film creates a revolting-looking physical creature--it looks like bubble gum that is still being chewed--not at all fly-like, but more revolting. Still it gets some of the habits of the insect. The new THE FLY is good Cronenberg, which means I cannot give it a general recommendation. If you don't mind the sort of thing Cronenberg does, THE FLY is not a bad film, but not nearly as good as the original. Rate the Cronenberg a +1 on the -4 to +4 scale. Mark R. Leeper ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 86 11:48:32 EDT From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@bbn-labs-b.arpa> Subject: Cast of Forbidden Planet The crew of Spaceship C-57-D contains a lot of familiar faces to those of us who watch old flicks: The cook was Earl Holliman, who also starred in the first episode of The Twilight Zone ("Where Is Everybody"). Holliman appeared in his day with everyone from Bette Davis to John Wayne. Has anyone seen him recently in anything? (I don't watch prime-time TV, so any network appearances are invisible to me.) The doctor was Warren Stevens, another journeyman second or third male lead (check out ON THE THRESHOLD OF SPACE): "Monsters, John, monsters from the id!" Also in the cast was Richard Anderson ("We can rebuild the drive, Captain, make it stronger, faster than it was before, and it will only cost 6 million--oops, wrong show--Any quantum mechanic in the galaxy would give his eyeteeth to get his hands on this baby.") (For fans of odd casting, catch the 1956 picture A CRY IN THE NIGHT, in which Richard Anderson is beaten up by peeping tom Raymond Burr when Burr kidnaps Anderson's date, Natalie Wood. Natalie's dad is played by Edmond O'Brien, a cop under police chief Brian Donlevy.) Besides the two lines quoted above, my other favorite line from the picture is in reference to the force field used against the id monster: "We're throwing over a billion electron volts at it and it's still coming!" (That's 0.16 nano-joules; maybe their batteries need recharging.) In fairness, these malapropisms are minor compared to the side-splitting hilarity of the opening sequence in MOON ZERO TWO, in which Newton's laws of motion are cast to the ether. BTW, there are two different prints of FORBIDDEN PLANET: the original full-length version and the notorious kiddie-matinee cut. Avoid the first at ALL costs, as it excises a couple of scenes referred to later on by the uncut portions. Unfortunately, when MGM decided to make some new Cinemascope prints of the picture, they used the kiddie-matinee version. Urggh.... I was lucky in that the first time I saw the picture, the college group had rented the full-length version. However, it was a "green" print (i.e., fresh from the lab), and in a few places the sound went out of synch with the picture and became garbled, leading to the following exchange: Robbie: "I am equipped to understand 183 languages, along with their various dialects and sub-tongues." Nielsen: "Argle-bargle fitzem ding?" Robbie: "Zerfitz kutmel yar." Back to normal sound/picture tracking. (Best funny coincidence I've ever had at the movies.) "Black Destroyer," the basis for ALIEN, was originally published in the July 1939 issue of Astounding. And the kill fee paid to van Vogt was actually $50K, not $75K as I originally posted. Kathy Godfrey ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 86 09:36:25 -0800 From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU> To: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@mc.lcs.mit.edu> Subject: Re: Lost in Space > The robot was simply "the robot". Robbie is a character from > the 1956 movie _Forbidden Planet_ (he did make a guest appearance > in one episode of _Lost in Space_). Robbie made at least two guest appearances on LIS, as an enemy of the robot's and as a prizon caretaker. I suspect there were others. > Doctor Zachary Smith. I forget who played him. He was not a > scientist, but a foreign enemy agent. I think he was also a > medical doctor. He claimed a Ph.D. in something like "interstellar sociology", in an episode where aliens required him to operate on their leader. In the same episode, the robot said (referring to his "Dr." prefix) "The title is honorary". That does not necessarily mean that he did not have a Ph.D., but it pretty much clinches the fact that he was not an M.D. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Aug 86 14:01:28 EDT From: SHADOW%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Astronomy Undergraduate) Subject: Star Trek Milestone Did anyone read the Boston Globe Yesterday? (8/16/86) 20 years ago, when NBC refused the first pilot for a TV series called "Star Trek", it's creator later asked (when the series got off the ground) Paramount Pictures if he could salvage his hard work and merge the original pilot somehow. I am, of course, speaking of the only 2-part episode, "The Menagerie", where most of the footage of the never aired pilot, "The Cage" ended up. Unfortunaltely, Paramount did not want to pay $200 to make another print of "The Cage" just to cut up and use in "The Menagerie" and so, the only copy in existence was spliced, and cut up to fit for this episode. About a year ago, Gene Roddenbery (sp?) decided to find all the frames from "The Cage" and see what he could do with them. It was a long laborious 'trek' through the film vaults, but he managed to get all the original film spliced back together, and reprocessed. (It was severly damaged in sections) A black and white print has been made, and was premiered for the first time publically at the New York Museum of Broadcasting, where it will play for the next 2 months, in celebration of Star Trek's 20th anniversary. Just a little piece of nostalgia I found noteworthy of relating here. By the way: On the subject of a new series, Fox Studios has preproduction plans on the table, and casting is currently the issue. If they DO use the veteran actors, I suggest they make an episode entitled, "The Deadly Years II" since it will have been 20 or more years since they first experienced aging. And this time, makeup sessions will only take about 10 minutes. SHADOW@UMass.Bitnet ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 86 09:21:42 PDT From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) To: GALLOWAY@B.ISI.EDU Subject: Baen books (and book clubs) I was talking to the people at Future Fantasy in Palo Alto last week, and they, too, have decided that the Baen Book Club is unfair competition and her November orders are the final orders they will make. Baen doesn't give 50% off to the store, so there is no way to compete. I've mentioned this to Mike Smith, who works with Jim Baen, and he said he'd pass it up the pipe. With COH and DV added in, they may have to rethink this policy. If I hear anything new, I'll pass it along. chuq ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 86 21:34 CET From: <PSST001%DTUZDV1.BitNet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> Subject: Time Travel / Laws of conservation Conservation of energy doesn't seem to be too much of a problem in time-travel to me. When you lose a certain amount of mass to another point in the space-time-continuum,you get the equivalent according to E=mc**2. If this happens fast and violently, you'll have to face some rather cataclysmic event that might destroy your time-machine. Another possibility would be that a time-machine would develop large amounts of heat equivalent to the energy of the object sent. If the resulting energy can be controlled and is not required for the time-travel itself, this might solve both our energy AND garbage problems. Sending back garbage to past times would not pollute earth because of celestial motions,i.e. yesterday the earth was somewhere else, so to speak. All this under the assumption of an energy-conservation-law that is also time-valid. Flames on, Michael Maisack ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Aug 86 1235-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #264 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 22 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 264 Today's Topics: Books - Always Coming Home (2 msgs), Films - Flight of the Navigator & Star Trek (2 msgs) & The Fly (2 msgs), Television - The Invadors & Billy Mumy & More SF TV (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 19 Aug 86 14:11:13 GMT From: pete@stc.co.uk Subject: Always Coming Home Anyone out there read this book? Any opinions/reviews? I enjoyed it, with some reservations. Peter Kendell <pete@tcom.stc.co.uk> ...!mcvax!ukc!stc!pete ------------------------------ Date: 21 Aug 86 05:55:21 GMT From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: Always Coming Home Some interest in opinions on "Always Coming Home" was expressed. I haven't read it, but it is one of the main subjects of an excellent critical essay by Norman Spinrad in this months Asimov's. Spinrad explains not only why LeGuin has gone downhill so steeply, but why mainstream critics applaud such dreadful science fiction books as "The Eleven Million Mile High Dancer" and why Harper's keeps running those imbecile articles about science fiction. His description of the form of these sf-bashing articles is hilarious, and absolutely accurate to boot. Tim Maroney {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 86 14:56:00 GMT From: ccvaxa!preece@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Movie FLIGHT OF THE NAVIGATOR Brad Templeton writes: > I felt the first half of this movie was quite good, reasonably > done SF. The second half degenerated into cute voices, gags, cute > creatures and a stupid, sappy ending. Much what you expect from > Disney today, but not what he used to give us when he was alive. Leaving aside the spiffy antecedent mismatch, which is cute enough to maybe be intentional, I think you're wrong. I thought this was a lot better than a bunch of movies made in the latter years of Disney's life. I think my kids would give you exactly the opposite evaluation of the movies merits -- the first part was dull and talky and they didn't know what was going on and the second part was fun and exciting. My own opinion lies somewhere in between, but I thought the movie as a whole was pretty good. > What I'm really sick of is all the stories that spend all day > telling you how, "we can't go back in time, it's too dangerous" > until they do it anyway and all is well. There's a difference between Superman being told "You absolutely positively cannot reverse your choice" and the kid being told "I couldn't risk it, you could be harmed, it's too dangerous." The point is that the kid has to make the decision to accept that risk and the ship has to learn enough about the kid and his life to accept that decision. It would have been a pretty heavy movie for kids if the danger had been realized and the kid killed. MOST threats met by MOST central characters in books and movies of all kinds ARE successfully met. > I guess kids watching this movie don't think about how the other > characters in the film had their whole lives erased just so the > kid wouldn't have to adjust, but it sure bothered me. You must bother easily. One could argue as easily that those who had their lives altered by the ship's original decision to NOT restore the kid to his proper time were unfairly damaged. Presumably the vast majority of them will grow their lives in exactly the same way. I don't think there's a reasonable ethics governing whether or not to change the course of history -- it's a little fanciful for serious philosophers. > Disney movies were supposed to be simulating to children without > insulting adults. Well, I didn't feel insulted. They generally used scientific words and concepts reasonably, aside from the builtin warpings needed to cover the basic premise. The special effects were fine. The underlying story about the kid, his relationship to his family, and the bending of that relationship by his absence made a reasonable story. I wish the scientist character had been just a tad more sympathetic, but even there they avoided the danger of making him evil. I was a little surprised that the young woman who helped him at NASA didn't turn up as a kid after he went back to his own life... scott preece gould/csd - urbana uucp: ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!preece arpa: preece@gswd-vms ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 86 17:48:18 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: Saavik >I thought I was the only one who liked Kirstie Allie better. All >my friends who have an opinion in the matter think the opposite. >It's nice to know I'm not the only one. I'd be interested to hear justification for preferring Robin Curtis. Allie's Saavik was a very determined, dogged, single-minded officer candidate. And occasionally, because of her powerful, accurate memory for regulations, and her personal strength, she would remind the old hands of a trick or two. And she was very dignified. At Spock's funeral she even wept with dignity -- hands at her sides, ramrod straight, perfectly composed. I could well believe her to be a Romulan-Vulcan mix. She acted like one. ("Humour. It's a difficult concept.") Curtis' Saavik is, by contrast, almost motherly, as far as she shows any personality at all. No references to regulations, or logic, at all. None of the attitude of a command candidate. Instead, we get philosophy, recriminations ("How many people have died for your impatience?"), and complaints ("Just like your father: so human.", with exasperated shake of head). I didn't see nearly the character in her that Allie showed. It was hard even to believe it was the same person. >In regards to a new Star Trek, I would like to see new actors >playing new characters. Maybe a story here and there about Kirk's >early days, or Captain Pike's days as captain. But let's not get >trapped into having 500 episodes with the same characters. And >frankly, I'd like to see some civilian shows. Let's see some of >the Federation from the inside, not the outside. Definitely. Surely this world consists of more than the command crew of one ship. If that's all there is, then I think we've seen enough. But there must be a great deal more. Let's see some of it. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 20 Aug 86 00:07:01 GMT From: bandy@lll-crg.ARpA (Andrew Scott Beals) Subject: Whales in ST IV: The Voyage Home rjg@meccts.UUCP (Robert J. Granvin) writes: >There has never been an official mention of whales, at least. Perhaps not, I really don't know. But I do know that they went down to the Monterey Aquarium (no flames about up:down :: north:south, please - Livermore is at ~400' elevation, Monterey is sea level) and did some filming with the (killer ?) whales there. I did however hear someone connected to the film say that it had *nothing* to do with Humphrey the Whale. Andrew Scott Beals bandy@lll-crg.arpa {ihnp4,seismo,ll-xn,qantel,pyramid}!lll-crg!bandy LLNL, P.O. Box 808, Mailstop L-419, Livermore CA 94550 (415) 423-1948 ------------------------------ Date: Tue 19 Aug 86 21:11:58-CDT From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: The Fly I just saw The Fly starring Jeff Goldblum, directed by David Cronenberg. For those who've been living in a cave, the film is a remake of an old 50s film in which a scientist fiddling with teleportation accidentally gets his head swapped with a fly's. This new version is more "realistic" with the scientist Seth Brundle slowly metamorphosising into a fly. This was a very well done, surprisingly good quality film. It contained a LOT of stomach turning truly disgusting scenes, however, so be warned in advance. This is grisly stuff! My wife wished she hadn't seen it (and for comparison, she loved Aliens!) But if you're willing to put up with (or relish and look forward to :-) some quite gory scenes, I think you'll enjoy this sf/horror film. The plot was reasonably consistent (if you can accept the premise) and treated the story quite differently than I expected. Jeff Goldblum does not grow huge wings and terrorize the city as a monster or anything tacky like that. Instead the movie is fairly psychological, exploring the impact on "Brundlefly" as he calls himself in a moment of black humor and on his girlfriend (a reporter) and her editor (who begins the movie as her former lover and a possessive jerk). All three characters change, (obviously Seth Brundle does...:-), and all display human failings as well as good sides. There is also a fair amount of humor, which becomes progressively darker and scarcer as things progress. Now for a few specific thoughts: **** SPOILERS AHEAD ****** 1. Only real "realism" nit to pick is his computer: When will there be a movie about an individual owning a computer that does NOT have incredibly high resolution graphics, speech understanding, natural lang. processing, etc etc...? Seth says his equipment was not really expensive, but that computer sure was...! Of course, nits can be picked about the basic teleportation/fusion of RNA premise as well... but I regard suspension of disbelief for that as part of the price of admission. 2. Those who didn't like the nightmare in Aliens are really gonna hate the nightmare sequence in this movie... They are even similar in some sense. After it was over, there was much gasping and laughing, which sounded like nervous laughter and relief. But it was much "cheaper" still than the Aliens sequence, so I look forward to seeing complaints about it here... luckily for me, I LIKE cheap nightmare sequences... 3. Any biologists out there know whether flies really vomit acid onto their food to digest it, then swallow it? That fight scene at the end really gave me the willies, imagine watching your hand dissolve away, yuck! 4. I was amused by the reference at the beginning to selling the story to Omni magazine, when the editor thought it was a hoax. I imagine Omni, being the National Enquirer of science magazines, would indeed publish it immediately. 5. The final fusion of Brundlefly and telepod seemed dubious to me at the time, though upon further thought, I suppose it's ok, given that the computer was just shot and so probably not thinking too clearly ... Any thoughts on whether this was a "cheap effect" or would the computer really attempt to "fuse" Brundlefly and the inanimate telepod? ***** END SPOILER ***** My final question is, has anyone seen the earlier films by this demented director? I believe they are Scanners and Videodrome. I have heard they are quite gory and bizarre too. Are they similar in quality to The Fly or just pure gore? If they are like The Fly, I will want to see them sometime, but I want to avoid gore for gore's sake. Russ ------------------------------ Date: 20 Aug 86 20:00:36 GMT From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton) Subject: Re: The Fly (SPOILERS) CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU writes: >5. The final fusion of Brundlefly and telepod seemed dubious to me >at the time, though upon further thought, I suppose it's ok, given >that the computer was just shot and so probably not thinking too >clearly ... Any thoughts on whether this was a "cheap effect" or >would the computer really attempt to "fuse" Brundlefly and the >inanimate telepod? Of course it would - it's in the script! Really, that's the only possible explanation for most of the stuff in this film. Check your biology at the door, but not your mind, as the film can still be thought provoking. >My final question is, has anyone seen the earlier films by this >demented director? I believe they are Scanners and Videodrome. I >have heard they are quite gory and bizarre too. Are they similar >in quality to The Fly or just pure gore? If they are like The Fly, >I will want to see them sometime, but I want to avoid gore for >gore's sake. D.C. certainly is a gore director, although I think he also did the DEAD ZONE which is fairly clean. The Fly is one of his best, although I personally enjoyed scanners for what it was. Cronenberg is now probably the most commercially successful director in this country, although Norman Jewison probably gets higher critical acclaim. Brad Templeton Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 86 22:42:40 EDT From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU> Subject: "V"?? To: ihlpf!soussan@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU From: ihlpf!soussan@caip.rutgers.edu (Soussan) > There have been numerous references to "The Visitors". I believe > you mean the series "V", which starred (I think) Mark Harmon (also > in The Beastmaster) and "V"? The program was obviously "The Invaders" in which the hero keeps confronting the evil aliens but they always managed to escape before he could show them to anyone. It helped that the aliens had very high technology, faded away when killed, and differed from humans only in that they couldn't bend their little pinkie. Keith ------------------------------ Date: 19 Aug 86 16:30:45 GMT From: ides!kimi@caip.rutgers.edu (Kimiye Tipton) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs (errata) Look for the latest Rolling Stone (with Paul McCartney on the cover) which features Billy Mumy in "Where Are They Now?" Turns out he's been writing and playing for America and other groups. Kimiye Tipton Maitland, FL USA USENET: ihnp4!abfll!kimi akgua!akguc!codas!bsdpkh!ides!kimi ------------------------------ Date: 19 Aug 86 12:17:48 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com Subject: re: SF-TV programs From: ihlpf!soussan (Daniel Soussan) > There were two shows using the same special effects which I always > mix together. In one of the two shows (SPACE ACADEMY?), James > Doohan (Scotty of ST, of course) played the commander of a school > set in a mobile asteroid. The other (JASON AND THE ASTRONAUTS? > JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS?) was like a serial, each episode ending > with a cliff-hanger... That was JASON OF STAR COMMAND. The two shows took place in the same universe. I don't think Doohan was head of the Space Academy, but the chief of Star Command. I think Jonathan Harris (LIS's Dr. Smith) that was the head of the SA. I could be misremembering, though, since I didn't watch them very often. > EARTH 2? ARK 2? (not the movie Earth 2 but maybe based on it?) It was ARK II. I only saw it once or twice, so I don't remember any details. From: well!slf > Also, nobody's mentioned Sixth Sense with David Hartman... Wrong morning talk show host. It was Gary Collins. From: bigbang!bam (Bret Marquis) > Did I miss something when Lost in Space and Time Tunnel were > cancelled? As far as I can recall, both groups, the Robinsons and > the two time travellers never returned. Did either of those shows > end cleanly? Nope, both groups are still lost. > Along the same lines did "The Invaders" {A Quinn Martin > production} ever get discovered/killed/deported?? Or is David > Jansen still out there warning people about the dangers of > Cerebral Hemorrage?? Nope, that never got resolved, either. In the second year, David Vincent (note correction, David Janssen was name of the actor from THE FUGITIVE) did manage to convince enough people that a small group referred to as The Believers was formed, but that was all (and if memory serves, most of the group was killed off over the span of a few episodes). ------------------------------ Date: 19 Aug 86 14:52:46 GMT From: ihlpf!soussan@caip.rutgers.edu (Soussan) Subject: Re: Sci-Fi TV (again) > Also, nobody's mentioned Sixth Sense with David Hartman; Mission: > Impossible You mean Sixth Sense with Gary Collins (which started as its own series and then "merged" with Night Gallery). Daniel A. Soussan @ AT&T Bell Laboratories, Naperville IL ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Aug 86 1301-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #265 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 23 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 265 Today's Topics: Films - Forbidden Planet & Silent Running & The Fly (2 msgs), Television - Giagantor & More SF TV (3 msgs) & Mission Impossible & Lost in Space (2 msgs) & Star Trek & Jonny Quest, Miscellaneous - Time Travel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Aug 86 20:29:00 GMT From: jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare) Subject: Re: Cast of Forbidden Planet I cannot resist mentioning the best-timed film break I ever saw. It was at a showing of "Thunderball" (?) the Bond film involving some stoled H-bombs that the bad guys stash in an underwater cavern (SF, after a fashion. Or maybe fantasy...). Comes the final grand fight scene. The bad guys, in SCUBA gear, are towing an H-bomb away on an underwater sled. Bond and good guys attack, spearing frogmen and slashing air hoses right and left. Quick cut of H-bomb, resting ominously on its sled, guarded by bad guys. Bond raises his spear gun, aims, fires.... and the whole screen turns blinding white. Jordin Kare ------------------------------ Date: 20 Aug 86 19:57:03 GMT From: carnellp@usrcv1.dec.com (Fanmail from some Flounder?) Subject: Re: Silent Running Just for the record, the credits list the following: "Introducing as the Drones Mark Persons Steven Brown Cheryl Sparks Larry Whisenhunt" And under technical credits the following: "Drone Units James Dow Paul Kraus Don Trumball" I watched my tape last night for the first time in years. I had forgotten just how well the drones were pulled off. To bad this type of robot has not been used since, shame to waste such a neat idea on just one movie. Also, I remember that much of the controversy over this movie stemmed from Joan Baez singing the title song. This movie came out just when her anti-war preaching was at its zenith and the "establishment" had had about enough. I beleave this film was banned in Boston, I know it was pulled from theaters by the now defunct Maryland Censor Board. And it's rated "G" no less! Paul Carnell ------------------------------ Date: 20 Aug 86 19:37:20 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: The Fly (Joe-Bob-style summary, Leeper-style evaluation) THE FLY Be grossed out. Be very grossed out. SUMMARY: 2-1/4 female breasts. 2 male buttocks. 5 gallons white slime. 2 pints blood. 1 green-stick fracture. 8 decaying and disintrigrating body parts. 1 wimpy computer (no tape drives or blinking lights). 3 sort-of-functioning teleportation booths. Arm-Wrestling-Fu. Wall-Crawling-Fu. Nasty-Talons-Fu. Acid-Vomiting-Fu. Jumping-Through-Windows-Fu. Shot-Gun-Fu. 1 love triangle. 1 nasty corporate middle-manager. 100 lines of witty dialogue. Check it out. But take your barf-bags. +2 on -4 to +4 scale. Take away between 1 and 3 points if you're squeamish. Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 20 Aug 86 20:41:18 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: The Fly (discussion of technical bogosity, spoilers) Too much to ask for reasonableness I suppose. There were two huge whoppers, to my way of thinking. First, I can't see any reason for the teleporter to assume it had to have only one genetic code. After all, did it assume this of the intestinal flora in his gut? Or, even lacking that, what about the fact that each human cell has at least two distinct genetic codes, one which participates in sexual reproduction and one of which is purely maternal descent? It just doesn't make a great deal of sense, when thought about for more than a few seconds. Then, they proceed to make the traditional "insect powers" mistakes. Flies can walk on walls, so our hero can. Flies can lift many times their weight, so our hero can lift many times his weight. Flies are very fast, so our hero is very fast. Yuck. Flies can walk on walls, because at their size gravity is a negligible force compared to adhesion and surface tension and the like. And they can lift so many times their weight because of their square-cube advantage, not because they are intrinsically strong. And they are fast again only because they are small. There are a zillion smaller problems with the developmental course following the genetic fusion, but all in all I found it a very interesting premise. Once you have suspended your disbelief of the above two major points, the minor ones are not so bad. It would be interesting to have the elements handled a little better. Have a more plausible teleportation error damage our hero's DNA in a more reasonable way. Have the physical abilities of the result be more in line with reality. Have the developmental process a little more plausible. Well, I'm up for another remake! How about Lucas? Or Ridley Scott? Or both? Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 20 Aug 86 08:43:08 GMT From: jam@comp.lancs.ac.uk (John A. Mariani) Subject: Re: Gigantor tewok@umcp-cs.UUCP (Wayne Morrison) writes: >There is one show that I remember that no one I have ever mentioned >it to has ever heard of. The show was called "Gigantor", and was >possibly the prototype of the robot shows. Does anyone remember >ever seeing this show? Yup! I loved it as a kid. It was this huge, pretty non-descript robot; (hey! I saw this in b/w and it was just grey all over). Distinguishing features : a "Roman soldier's helmet" type head, with a fin (I think) and a permanently up visor type thing (how precise can I be about something I saw 20 or so years ago) and a large pointed nose. On his back were two rocket tubes. He/it was controlled by a little featureless box which had a "gear stick" handle and an antenae (sic?); this box was owned by one Jimmy Sparks (I love that name! its right up there with Barney Rubble), son of Gigantor's inventor and creator. The adventures were shared with a secret agent, about whom I remember NOTHING! Anybody else got anything to add? Through this show, and "Marine Boy", I fell in love with Japanese animation. Unfortunately, British TV (or at least the regions I've lived in) haven't really shown much else. ("Inspector Gadget" & "Ulleysis(sic again!)" have been on; I think they are French co-productions). While on holiday in Italy, however, I have seen quite a few others -- "Lupin III", for example, which is brill! Hey! I'm rambling again -- I'll get out of your way now, g'day! Any e-mail re Japanese animation welcome. UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!jam DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@ucl-cs JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4467 Post: University of Lancaster Department of Computing Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Aug 86 02:32:32 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: re: SF-TV programs Speaking of Superhero tv shows: I remember a couple from back when. Of course, there was Batman. There were a couple of other comedies--Captain Nice was one, I don't remember the other. There was another about a plane load of people who crashed in the Himalayas and came back with mysterious powers. Don't remember the title of that one, either. I seem to remember that this one was more serious. david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 86 14:44 CDT From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: SF on TV How about The Immortal that had a guy whose blood had supercharged antibodies and such. Injuries would heal in seconds (time-lapse stuff), he never got sick, and he was being chased by everyone and their brother because this stuff was transfusable. And I don't remember the name of the show but heres the plot: Mountain man freezes in a glacier or something, a hundred years later gets thawed out and goes and lives with his grandson who happens to be about 30 older than he is. For humorous fantasy, (sick humor) there's always I Dream of Jeannie, with none other than Larry Hagman. How about When Things Were Rotten, punnishing Robin Hood. I'll send more when I think of it. Brett ------------------------------ Date: 19 Aug 86 03:40:47 GMT From: steinmetz!davidsen@caip.rutgers.edu (Davidsen) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs Actually my favority SF TV show was a fantasy (and I really prefer hard core SF) and a comedy to boot, _Wizards and Warriors_ which was on for a summer and vanished. I got all the episodes on tape except the first one, which I missed (sigh). My wife votes for _QUARK_, the comedy about a galactic garbage scow. It was *way* too subtle for the general public, with dozens of double meanings and references. bill davidsen ihnp4!{seismo!rochester!steinmetz|unirot|chinet}!crdos1!davidsen davidsen@g-crd.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 20 Aug 86 00:36:06 GMT From: cae780!gordon@caip.rutgers.edu (Brian Gordon) Subject: Re: Mission Impossible slf@well.UUCP (Sharon Lynne Fisher) writes: >Also, nobody's mentioned ... Mission: Impossible ... Whoa, there. One of the neat things about MI was that everything they did was POSSIBLE, right then. Maybe prohibitively expensive and too risky for "field use", but possible -- which pretty takes it out of the science fiction realm. FROM: Brian G. Gordon, CAE Systems Division of Tektronix, Inc. UUCP: tektronix!cae780!gordon {ihnp4, decvax!decwrl}!amdcad!cae780!gordon {hplabs, resonex, qubix, leadsv}!cae780!gordon USNAIL: 5302 Betsy Ross Drive/#58137, Santa Clara, CA 95052-8137 AT&T: (408)748-4817 [direct] (408)727-1234 [switchboard] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 86 01:44:20 EDT From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU> Subject: Lost in Space To: hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU Cc: ops@NCSC.ARPA From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU> >[Zachary Smith] claimed a Ph.D. in something like "interstellar >sociology", in an episode where aliens required him to operate on >their leader. Well, he wasn't known for always telling the truth, you may recall. >In the same episode, the robot said (referring to his "Dr." prefix) >"The title is honorary". Since Dr. Smith was not part of the crew, the robot would have had no information on his credentials except what Smith chose to tell it. Keith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 86 09:24:35 -0800 From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU> To: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@mc.lcs.mit.edu> Subject: Re: Lost in Space I dislike arguing details of a show which never tried to be consistent with common sense, physical laws, social laws, or even itself, but I tend to believe Smith's comment in this case was as true as possible for such shifts in consistency. He would certainly lyingly claim a degree in the face of greed, but in this case his only motive was to convince the aliens that he was not an M.D. If he WAS an M.D., he would have attempted the operation in light of the promised reward. If he had no degree, I think he would just say that, rather than make up a degree to explain his name. The clincher, as far as my opinion is concerned, is that the rest of the episode never gave reason to doubt it. This show was made for an age group for which they would never expect you to assume something like that without explicitly verifying it (for those that were too slow to make the assumption) in the very near future. We're not talking a deep show, where much can be read between the lines. Concerning what the Robot knew about Smith, he was responsible (when he returned to Earth in "The Time Merchant") for seeing that the Robot was installed on the J-II right before launch. Thus it is possible that he had something to do with it's programming and/or verbal indoctrination earlier. This also supports the supposition that he was not an M.D., or at least, had other talents for which he was employed. It must also be assumed that the Robot learned much about Smith after the launch, both directly and from the Robinsons. Of course, Smith is also shown declaring crew members fit for the trip as if he had just given them physicals, both in the original episode and in "The Time Merchant". It's possible that he was originally an M.D., and then the scriptwriters changed their mind to better represent the pathetic creature he had become. The examination scene in "The Time Merchant" was probably done since they had irrevocably done it in the first episode. But the examination consisted of him removing some electrodes, and saying "You'll do." Anyone may be able to read the dials for such an examination. Also, Will and a general called him "Dr." at Alpha Control. Due to the simplicity of the examination, his other duties at Alpha Control, his non-medical interests in other episodes, and the fact that even a general admitted he was a doctor of something, I would assume he was a doctor of something other than medicine. The degree he claimed to the aliens seemed suitably whimpy for him, and could explain familiarity with the Robot: a piece of equipment critical to explorations which were in his sphere of interest. Of course he was, above all else, an "enemy agent" [from FANTASTIC TELEVISION, a reasonably clinical description of many TV-SF series], who sabotaged the J-II in the first place (and bungled it by getting stuck on board himself). The only part of the sabotage I recall was reprogramming the Robot to destroy the ship. He was later given credit for the programming which made the Robot more human, and was often questioned reguarding matters of technical Robot maintenance, for which he was responsible. It's clear (from the general) that he was a doctor. Based on the skills he has demonstrated, I find it much easier to believe that his degree was in something other than medicine. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 86 14:30 CDT From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: Re: Star Trek Episode The ST episode that had the giant Amoeba eat the ship of Vulcans was The Immunity Syndrome. The ship was the USS Intrepid as others have pointed out. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Aug 86 15:18:45 GMT From: bambi!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Caplinger) Subject: Re: Johnny Quest Has anyone else noticed that Johnny Quest looked a lot more like Race Bannon than he did like his supposed father, Benton Quest? One wonders what Race and the late Mrs. Quest were doing while Benton was down at the lab... Ah, but what a great show! I wonder if EVERYBODY'S favorite episode was the one with the robot spider -- I've never met anyone who didn't say that one. Mike Caplinger (mike@bellcore.com) ------------------------------ Date: 20 Aug 86 09:11:28 GMT From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Time Travel / Laws of conservation From: <PSST001%DTUZDV1.BitNet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> >If the resulting energy can be controlled and is not required for >the time-travel itself, this might solve both our energy AND >garbage problems. > >Sending back garbage to past times would not pollute earth because >of celestial motions,i.e. yesterday the earth was somewhere else, >so to speak. > >All this under the assumption of an energy-conservation-law that is >also time-valid. Presumably sending objects into the past would *consume* energy -- it is only sending them into the future that would produce energy. The idea being that if you send an item into the past, there are now two copies of that item, and it took energy produce that second copy. Similarly if you send an item into the future it ceases to exist for a period of time, and presumably its energy would become available. It seems, though, that you could only "borrow" energy from the future -- when the future actually came along, and the object once again existed, its appearance would require the subtraction of an equal amount of energy, if energy were to be conserved. But this is a kind of time-travel machine that we already (in theory) *know* how to build: convert X to energy, store the energy for a while, then convert the energy back into X. Presto, time travel into the future. Not really very exciting, come to think of it. David desJardins ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Aug 86 1322-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #266 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 24 Aug 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 266 Today's Topics: Books - Myers, Television - Jonny Quest & More SF TV (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - The Challenger & Time Travel (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Aug 86 13:25:07 GMT From: ihlpf!soussan@caip.rutgers.edu (Soussan) Subject: Re: reference from Myers' _Silverlock_ > My wife and I have both recently read _Silverlock_, and of course > we spent quite a bit of time picking out all the references. One > that I couldn't place is the reference to the talking horses and > the Yahoos. The reference to talking horses and yahoos is from the book commonly known as "Gullivers Travels" by Jonathan Swift. This book is actually called _Travels into Several Remote Nations of the World, by Lemuel Gulliver_ and chronicles Gulliver's adventures in a bunch of different places (including the famous Lilliput). One of the nations he visits is "Houyhnhnmland," where horses are the sentient race (and they call themselves "Houyhnhnms" - pronounced "hween*ms" where *=schwa (upside down e) by my English teacher of long ago), and they use humans as draft animals (called "yahoos"). Daniel A. Soussan @ AT&T Bell Laboratories, Naperville, IL. ....!ihnp4!ihlpf!soussan ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 86 19:56:53 GMT From: li@uw-vlsi.ARPA (Phyllis Li) Subject: Re: SF on TV -- Johnny Quest Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM writes: >With all the discussion of SF on TV, I've been surprised to see no >mention of my first intro to SF, an animated series called "Johnny >Quest." ... > >Anyone else remember it? Of course I remember it! :) In fact there is now a comicbook that is pretty well done on that series, AND there is a company that is going to be coming out with NEW episodes!! The everyone will be about the same age as when the series was cancelled a long time ago, but there will be changes. I think that there will be a little girl the same age as Johnny who is into theoretical physics (the original was deemed too male-dominated). The originator of the series is working closely with the new people, so the art is going to be about the same. Also, the premise that all the science that they will be using is only about 20 years in advance of the present will be kept. Makes for all sorts of fun with those air cushion whosiwhatsits roaming about. I think that Bandit dies... sigh, the originator, sadly hated the dog because his advertisers made him put in some cute animal that could be sold in mass markets... he had to put him in, but desperately wanted to avoid a "boy and his dog" story, so he put in Hadji. Well, that's all I remember at the moment... I think that the comic book is from Comico, and I think that they would know how to contact whoever it is that is going to do the TV show. Liralen Li USENET: ihnp4!akgua!sb6!fluke!uw-vlsi!li ARPA: li@uw-vlsi.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 19 Aug 86 23:54:20 GMT From: calmasd.CALMA!jnp@caip.rutgers.edu (John Pantone) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs > But, does anyone remember "Astro Boy"? Yup - my younger brother used to watch it. A little robot-kid with greasy hair and jet tube feet. As long as I'm admitting to be a golden oldie myself, are there any other antiques out there that remember: Science Fiction Theater First run in the 50's, in syndication as late as 1970's 1/2 hour of very good, although low budget, sf. Community Outer Space Theater Local (Chicago - WGN) runs of the FLASH GORDON (Buster Crabbe) and BUCK ROGERS (Crabbe again) movie serials - in the 50's and 60's John M. Pantone @ GE/Calma San Diego ...{ucbvax|decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jnp ------------------------------ Date: 21 Aug 86 17:45:35 GMT From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes: > From: ihlpf!soussan (Daniel Soussan) >> Along the same lines did "The Invaders" {A Quinn Martin >> production} ever get discovered/killed/deported?? Or is David >> Jansen still out there warning people about the dangers of >> Cerebral Hemorrage?? > >Nope, that never got resolved, either. In the second year, David >Vincent (note correction, David Janssen was name of the actor from >THE FUGITIVE) did manage to convince enough people that a small >group referred to as The Believers was formed, but that was all >(and if memory serves, most of the group was killed off over the >span of a few episodes). I think a resolution was implied. In the last episode, the Believers had found help from a group of dissenters among the invaders. (No, I'm not confusing it with "V". This was The Invaders.) The show ended with a delegation of sympathetic aliens and, I think, a human or two taking off in one of their flying saucers to the alien's home planet for negotiations. The show gave you hope, but didn't specifically resolve the conflict. Final scene is David Vincent turning away as the saucer vanishes into the clouds. Striking. I'd like to see the whole series again, but alas, haven't ever seen it rerun anywhere. Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: 21 Aug 86 17:34:45 GMT From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes: >There was another about a plane load of people who crashed in the >Himalayas and came back with mysterious powers. Don't remember the >title of that one, either. I seem to remember that this one was >more serious. david rickel The Champions, a British SF. They had super strength and a sort of telepathy and precognition. I think it only lasted one season. The show started with a shot of this huge fountain. Why, I don't know. Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 86 19:42:35 GMT From: li@uw-vlsi.ARPA (Phyllis Li) Subject: Re: supporting CHALLENGER Last night, on the late evening news I thought I heard that old Ronnie has OK'ed the building of a new shuttle, and that it would be based in California. Any confirmations? I was mostly asleep at the time, so it may have been a good dream... SOMEbody please confirm or deny this! Liralen Li USENET: ihnp4!akgua!sb6!fluke!uw-vlsi!li ARPA: li@uw-vlsi.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 21 August 1986 07:57:39 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson) Subject: A Man Goes Insane While Pondering Time Travel Experiments I was pondering the question of time travel quite recently, while trying to think up a story using that concept. I tried to come up with some sort of "temporal physics" or "laws of time" that would eliminate all the paradoxes that go along with it (pretty ambitious, eh--but ultimately futile). And after reading all the current postings about time travel, I'm more confused than ever. Is there any way at all to zap through time and not contradict the laws of the universe? Its enough to make one swear off time travel forever (but I still watch Doctor Who, paradoxes and all! :-). Carlo Samson U09862@uicvm ------------------------------ Date: 21 Aug 86 20:18:00 GMT From: hjuxa!jjf@caip.rutgers.edu (FRANEY) Subject: Gold Coin Revisited Last night, I started reading a book by John Varley called 'Millenium' that describes a group of individuals living in the Last Age who are capable of travelling through time. This group uses its ability to rescue ('snatch') people of its past from certain death. In the first chapters, the group is busy trying to save the passengers and crew of a doomed airplane of 1955, when quite a few of the incidents that aren't supposed to happen happen. Things start going wrong. In trying to solve these problems, a great deal of energy is spent, which made me wonder why the group didn't abort its mission and try again at its leisure. The reason is that when the rescue team returns to the airplane to retry, they will merely get in their own way, since the first effort exists in the airplane at the time before the crash already. I immediately thought of our gold coin. Logically, it is possible to believe that in sending a gold coin back to a time and place it already existed, you would now have two coins. But, lets say you spend an hour with a gold coin. You stare at the coin; 'grok' the coin for a full hour. Nothing else exists for you during that hour except that coin and the otherwise empty table it sits on. At the end of the hour, you send the coin back into time to the beginning of the hour to a place one inch away from itself. Now I ask you, what do you remember doing during that hour? Do you remember staring at one coin on an empty table or do you remember staring at one coin sitting next to an identical coin on a table? The problem of conservation of mass and time travel does not only apply to the coin. It also applies to the memory cells within your head. However the mechanism of memory works, it is certainly physical. In order to move something through time, you must also alter the memories of people associated with the temporal change. Also, changes must occur to the written word, say if you wrote a journal about watching the coin. If your cat was with you, watching one coin (maybe here the example could appropriately be transferred to a mouse) you would have to change the images registered within its brain as well. [This bring to mind a book by I. M. Notsurewho called 'Time and Again' which held the theory that to travel through time, you must convice yourself, your brain, that you already are then. The only thing that keeps an individual in the present is the temporal strings attached to his psyche (ie. images of contemporary telephones).] Back to the coin. When travelling in time, the conservation of mass (and memory) can be maintained by exchange. In order to send the coin back into time, we must also bring the coin of the past into the present. Using this method, your memory will not be altered, your journal will read the same, and the cat will still be trying to figure out what's so interesting about a gold coin anyway. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be much benefit in temporal exchange. Why bother if you get back what you sent? And how would you prove it worked? This method also excludes the possibilty of people travelling through time. My body today is not the same body of yesterday. I ate more food, and eliminated waste. My blood is redistributed. My memory cells have been altered. Also, I would not be able to travel to 1776 because the matter that makes me up today was not arranged this way back then. If it was, I would have already existed back then so why go at all? But, hold it. On a grand scale, the conservation of matter and energy says: The total of mass and energy in the universe now is equal to the total of mass and energy at any other time. Universe(1986) = Universe(?) Taking the mass and energy that make up a gold coin out of Universe(10:00) and moving it to Universe(9:00) will unbalance the above equation unless the same amount of mass and energy is returned. The exchange made does not have to be with identical matter and energy. Matter or energy is made up of quantifiable particles. When sending a gold coin back into the past, we have to bring to the future a gold coin's worth of matter/energy from the exact instant we send it. Lets say the coin is sent an hour into the future and a gold coin's worth of matter/energy is exchanged. An hour later the gold coin appears on the table. How did it get there? Did the nature of time travel automatically re-exchange the matter/energy and the coin? If this happens the coin returns to the instant from when we sent it and never appears to have left us. Did the matter/energy that we exchanged suddenly converge to make a coin? Maybe we built a receptor that collects matter/energy particals and reconstructs objects from directions issued from another time. [Star Trek's transporter technology can be based on this concept. A tranport is actually a time travel to another place at half an instant from when it was initiated.] Actually, a receptor does not have to be built. Matter/energy collects itself naturally. If a coin is sent not an hour, a second or a millesecond, but the smallest time unit imaginable into the future, what would we see? We would see a coin there one unit, and there the next, just like we see happen, with everything, every day. This is a natural phenomenon which needs no man-made receptors. Thomas Edison invented the motion picture based on an optical illusion. The eye doesn't notice movement quicker than 30th of a second. The same kind of illusion is being played on our senses of matter/energy existence. Things are flickering in and out of the present always, on their way into the future. We are all travelling in time. But now I'm confused, with regards to the two gold coins sitting on the table for an hour. Whether we remember one or two coins on the table, the fact is that there are now two coins on the table. When we send the coin back, we receive a coin's worth of matter/energy and the matter/energy conservation law is maintained. The end of the hour comes along. The moment that we sent the coin back is at hand. I'll call this moment Instant A. Before Instant A and because we sent the coin back, there are two coins on the table. At Instant A, we make a matter/energy exchange, all systems go. After Instant A, the two coins are now one, having sent the original back. After Instant A, there is a coin's worth of matter/energy imbalance in the equation. It turns out that Universe(10:00) < Universe(10:01). How can the existence of the coin on the table be justified after instant A? Ever notice that if the symbol for infinity was a road you would be able to walk on it forever, that is, till the end of time? I think the question of time travel is such a road. That a parodox resolved is a parodox created. Resolving the second generates the first. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Sep 86 1016-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #267 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 4 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 267 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Wha' Happened, Television - Jonny Quest (2 msgs) & Stingray (2 msgs) & Mission Impossible (3 msgs) & Lost in Space (2 msgs) & The Invisible Man & Doctor Who & More SF on TV (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Sep 86 09:02:31 EDT From: Saul <Jaffe@RED.RUTGERS.EDU> Subject: Wha' Happened Hello and welcome once again to SF-LOVERS. Many of you may have noticed that you have not received a digest since around the middle of August and are beginning to panic. Withdrawl symptoms are surely starting by now. Well here is your "fix" and an explanation. Around the middle of August, Rutgers had mail problems. It seems as though we somehow stopped being able to talk to our ARPA neighbors and so mail could not get through to any of you folks. I am not sure of all the details but it was a mess! Shortly before the problem was fully resolved, I went on vacation. "Where did I go?" I hear you ask. Well, I went to sunny (??) Atlanta for the 1986 World Scence Fiction Convention. I found out some really interesting things about several topics (including details of the new Star Trek movie and upcoming novels). For details of the new movie, send $1000 to my numbered swiss bank account and send me a SASE with proof of deposit. (For those of you slow on the uptake, this means that I ain't talkin'. I promised not to tell). As the result of all of this, there are close to 300 messages sitting in my queue waiting to be put into a digest and then sent off to you. I will be attempting to get this stuff out as soon as possible. Expect between three and six digests a day for the next week or so until I catch up. I will try and make the digests single topics ones so that reading them will be easier. Any way, as a reminder to all of you readers: I have been getting a lot of messages lately that are obviously meant for the digest sent to my personal mailbox. These messages as you may have noticed, never made it to the digest. With good reason. The way the digest mail is set up, mail to the address SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS also gets forwarded to the usenet news file net.sf-lovers. Mail sent to any other address at Rutgers (for SF-LOVERS) does not. Similarly, if you want to talk to me personally, that is to request back issues or to change your mail address, the address to mail to is SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@RUTGERS. Again, if you send this mail to the wrong place it will be ignored. This is final and not open for discussion. Please make sure you send your discussion to SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS. And now, on with the show...... ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 86 11:21:30 PDT (Friday) From: Don Woods <Woods.pa@Xerox.COM> Subject: Re: SF on TV -- Jonny Quest To: Wahl.es@Xerox.COM Note that Jonny Quest is now being published as a comic book by Comico. Two issues out so far. All new stories; very faithful to the TV show; very good stuff. Probably available only at comics "specialty shops" (i.e., not drug stores). The comic books also have some info on the possible upcoming revival of the TV series that Sharon Fisher referred to in a followup posting. Don. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 86 04:20:52 GMT From: well!slf@caip.rutgers.edu (Sharon Lynne Fisher) Subject: Re: SF on TV -- Johnny Quest >I wonder if EVERYBODY'S favorite episode was the one with the robot >spider -- I've never met anyone who didn't say that one. My favorite was the "gas monster" that they made visible by pouring paint on it. Gave me the heebiejeebies. However, the spider was good too. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 86 10:00 PDT From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM Subject: SF on TV -- A request Cc: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM I also remember a Gerry Anderson Puppetmation show from the early '60's (before we moved to Albuquerque in autumn '65), with an underwater woman/mermaid who couldn't speak. Her name was Marina, and I think it's my first memory of that name. What was the name of that series? Was it Fireball XL5? Somehow that doesn't feel right. Marina Fournier Arpa: <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com> ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 86 14:00:09 GMT From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: SF on TV -- Stingray The Supermarianation series Marina Fournier was asking about was STINGRAY, dealing with Troy Tempest, captain of the flagship submarine of WASP, the World Aquanaut Security Patrol. His boss was Commander Sam Shore (confined to a wheelchair, making this perhaps the first regular series to feature a disabled character as something other than a "cripple") and the boss's daughter/Troy's love interest was Atlanta Shore, voice by and puppet head resembling Canadian actress Lois Maxwell, who played Moneypenny in the JAMES BOND FILMS. Troy's navigator was called "Phones" (a nick name). WASP was constantly at war with the evil forces of Titan, ruler of the undersea kingdom of Titania. His minions, called Aquaphibians, rode around in large mechanical fish. Marina, the mute woman, was originally Titan's slave (a second major character with a disability -- if Gerry Anderson accomplished nothing else in his career, at least he raised the social conscience of some kids in the early sixties). Titan's surface agent was X-2-0, a caricature of Peter Lorre. Ah, yes. I remember it well ... Cheers, Robert J. Sawyer c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Date: 21 Aug 86 20:12:34 GMT From: ihlpf!soussan@caip.rutgers.edu (Soussan) Subject: Re: Sci-Fi TV (again) [mi] Brian G. Gordon, CAE Systems Division of Tektronix, Inc. writes: >slf@well.UUCP (Sharon Lynne Fisher) writes: >>Also, nobody's mentioned ... Mission: Impossible ... > Whoa, there. One of the neat things about MI was that everything > they did was POSSIBLE, right then. Maybe prohibitively expensive > and too risky for "field use", but possible -- which pretty takes > it out of the science fiction realm. I beg to differ with you there. I contend that some of the gadgets and drugs used on that show are definitely science fiction. For example: 1) The "ring" with the spike that knocked a person unconscious when pressed into the *back of the neck* (not the side/front as in carotid artery) within seconds (not 15-20 secs, but 2-5). 2) The integrated circuit sized transmitter/receiver which was placed/implanted in the ear. This "integrated circuit" had a self-contained power source and antenna. I contend this technology was not available in the 1960's. 3) In one episode, a chess-playing computer was used in a world championship chess match and either held its own or beat the world champion opponent - a feat that cannot be done today with specialized hardware and software (the Belle chess playing computer), let alone in the sixties. I do not immediately recall other examples, but I think you catch my drift. I would agree that much of what they did was possible with the existing technology, and I think that almost everything was plausible - although it couldn't be done, this is a reasonable approach - but I wouldn't say *all* was possible. Therefore, I would put MI into the "only slightly ahead of its time" science fiction category. Daniel A. Soussan @ AT&T Bell Laboratories, Naperville, IL email: ...!ihnp4!ihlpf!soussan ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 86 04:42:37 GMT From: public@wheaton (Joe Public) Subject: Re: Mission Impossible gordon@cae780.UUCP (Brian Gordon) writes: >Whoa, there. One of the neat things about MI was that everything >they did was POSSIBLE, right then. What about those latex masks they wore to impersonate someone? Always wanted to have one of those myself til I realized they were impossible in real life. calvin richter ------------------------------ Date: 24 Aug 86 02:00:08 GMT From: hropus!jrw@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Webb) Subject: Re: Mission Impossible gordon@cae780.UUCP (Brian Gordon) writes: >>Whoa, there. One of the neat things about MI was that everything >>they did was POSSIBLE, right then. > What about those latex masks they wore to impersonate someone? > Always wanted to have one of those myself til I realized they were > impossible in real life. I agree that some of the people they "masked" had far too different features for a mask to work, but some of the make-up techniques today *do* make them possible. Jim Webb ihnp4!houxm!hropus!jrw ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 86 14:07:04 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald To: F/SF Digest <sf-lovers@rutgers.ARPA> Subject: Lost in Space Slight trivia: Roddenberry tried to sell Trek to CBS, and talked to them for 2 hours to explain how he thought it could be done reasonably. At the end of the interview, they said. "We already have a sci-fi show. But we do appreciate your coming in." ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 86 09:49:28 GMT From: gds@sri-spam.ARPA (The lost Bostonian) Subject: Re: Lost in Space Dr. Smith was at first the only one able to control the Robot. As has been stated before, he was responsible for reprogramming the Robot to destroy the ship, and later he nearly had the Robot kill Will after they crash landed. The Robot's personality changed somewhat after Will started speaking to it in an authoritative voice. Also, I think Will learned to program the robot to obey his normal voice. In the episode where Will takes a trip back to Earth to pick up carbon tetrachloride, the Robot shows his first allegiance towards Will and against Dr. Smith. From that point on, Will and the Robot became good friends, while the Robot's opinion of Dr. Smith steadily declined. Dr. Smith certainly gave a lot of meanings to his title -- I can recall he said something about studying extraterrestrial psychology, medicine, robotics, ... At the time when Dr. Smith was operating on the aliens, the Robot was probably being facetious when he said that Dr. Smith's title was honorary. gregbo ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 86 11:24:05 PDT (Friday) From: Don Woods <Woods.pa@Xerox.COM> Subject: Re: Invisible man Only slightly off the topic: Daniel Soussan's mention of McCallum's short-lived INVISIBLE MAN series reminds me of one of my favorite TV announcements. (I'm not making this up, either.) "Due to the following special program, The Invisible Man will not be seen tonight." Don. ------------------------------ Date: Sun 24 Aug 86 21:59:32-EDT From: "Jonathan S. Drukman" <RMS.G.JON%OZ.AI.MIT.EDU@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU> Subject: Dr. WHo Fans Of THe World UNITe! Are you tired of hiding in closets and not sharing your fetish with other similarly inclined weirdos? If you think I'm talking about bizaare sex then you obviously haven't been looking at the 'Subject' field. I'm talking about the greatest science fiction persona of them all... Dr. Who! If you are interested in this, the longest running science fiction series ever (23 years and still going...) then you definitely need to join UNIT USA, THe United States Branch Of The United Nations Intelligence Taskforce. Unit USA members are strange, demented people with usually only one (or less) things in common. Despite this we have a barrel of fun at our meetings and we often help out at local sf cons. TO be specific, we are Spirit Of Light's contact - they are the people who are bringing the fourth and sixth Doctors to Massachusetts. Yes that's right, Tom and Colin Baker will be here and you certainly don't want to miss what might be TOm Baker's last public appearance ever, do you!? If you think UNIT USA sounds like your cup of tea, then drop me a line either here or by Snail or give me a call (617)969-1574 but I won't be around much longer... Call now or miss out on a real experience... ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 86 13:21:05 GMT From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: SF on TV The Immortal, starring Christopher George, was based on THE IMMORTALS (plural) by James Gunn. The series about a man frozen in a glacier was THE SECOND HUNDRED YEARS, starrring Monte Markham. Cheers, Robert J. Sawyer c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 86 12:28 EDT From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: old sci-fi shows... Here are a few shows nobody has mentioned: 1) MR. TERRIFIC - Mild-mannered Stanley Beamish (a little guy who looks like Alan Thicke) is the only man in the world who has the blood type to use the "super-power" pill invented by the government to become (ta-da!) Mr. Terrific. (Love that name!) There were two kinds of pills: one lasted for 1/2 hour, the other for ten minutes. He could only be "powered-up" for a total of an hour a day. When he wasn't flying around doing jobs for the government, he worked in a garage with his partner (the guy who played "Hymie" on "Get Smart"), who fancied himself a lady-killer. I liked this show! It was corny, but fun (and funny). (This guy never carried enough pills with him). 2) CAPTAIN NICE - I kid you not! I remember the pilot episode. Scientist Carter Nash discovers a wonder drug which turns him into a super hero. The first time he saves someone, they see the initials C.N. on his belt buckle, and ask him what they stand for. The only thing he can think of at the moment is "Captain Nice". Later, his mother berates him for thinking up such a stupid name! Like Mr. Terrific, this show didn't last for long. 3) ASTRO-BOY - Remember the great Japanimation shows we used to see? This was the little robot who wanted to be human. The brilliant scientist who invented him later felt sorry for him, and built him a couple of robot parents, and a robot sister! 4) GIGANTOR - "Gigantor the space-aged robot, he's at, your command..." Giant needle-nosed robot remote-controled by some kid... 5) THE 8TH MAN - Tobor, 8th wonder of the world. Robot who was super-strong, super-fast, and could instantly change his appearance. He seemed to always be getting wrecked, and dragging himself back to his creator for repairs. His girlfriend, Jenny, was a hot little number. 6) SPEED RACER - Need I say more? Who could forget the Mach-5? Do the names Spridle, Chim-Chim, and Racer X ring a bell? Did Speed get his name because he was into drugs? "Here he comes, here comes Speed Racer, he's a demon on wheels, he's a demon and he's gonna be chasin' after someone..." Satanic reference? Who knows? Have you checked out Saturday morning cartoons lately? When you have been raised on the above shows, "Smurfs", "Kissyfur" and "Ewoks" make you want to puke violently... ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 86 05:52:27 PDT (Friday) Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment From: Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM As for TV shows, does anyone remember "Marine Boy" (and his oxygen pillls!!!)? I used to live for that show when I was about 7. Oh, the lost innocence of youth. And what was the name of the one that started with this buch of American spies getting lost in Tibet (or somewhere equally mysterious) and being given special powers by some mystical monks? It's had a recent re-showing on British television, but I only managed to catch the first two episodes. Hugh ARPA: Hippo.SBDERX@Xerox.COM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 86 08:07 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: SF on TV While we're on the topic of obscure SF on tv: Anyone remember a very short-lived show about a total loser whose given some kind of drug that elevates him to Superman powers? Forerunner to Greatest American Hero. I can't even remember the title, but I remember enjoying it -- when I was about ten. Anyone know if any of these shows (such as Johnny/Jonny Quest) are being aired anywhere? Lisa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Sep 86 1040-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #268 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 4 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 268 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (10 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Aug 86 01:49:29 PDT From: crash!pnet01!bnw@nosc.ARPA (Bruce N. Wheelock) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #247 chapman@calder.Berkeley.EDU (Brent Chapman) writes: >> The United States Navy is able to land an F-14 Tomcat on the >>flight deck of an aircraft carrier, at night and at sea, by remote >>control. >Whoa!! Can you give a reference for that? I don't have a specific reference. I can tell you that I was on the USS Constellation for 40 months, and saw a few remote landings, including one attempt at night that never did succeed. Not only does the Navy *not* lose "several planes and pilots per cruise" (our carrier lost 0 in 1977, 1 plane, no pilots in 1978, and 2 planes and 1 F-14 crew in 1980), but approach crashes are almost unheard of. The LSO no longer directs the plane into the deck. He advises while the pilot "flies the ball," and has the absolute authority to wave the pilot off, but the pilot guides his plane in these days, guided by a complex light-and- lens assembly (the ball). Heck, the LSO can't even see an incoming plane at night. {akgua, hplabs!hp-sdd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!pnet01!bnw ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 19 Aug 1986 04:38:14-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: ALIENS nightmare sequence > From: Barry Margolin <Margolin@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA> > My feeling about the nightmare sequence in Aliens is that it is > such an overused plot device that it has lost some of its effect > on me. As soon as things started going bad in that scene it was > plainly obvious to me that it must just be the "standard Hollywood > nightmare" scene. [...] It was obvious to me that if the cat had > been inpregnated (I hope I'm remembering the dream correctly, viz. > that it ended with an alien coming out of the cat)... (1) No, you didn't remember the nightmare correctly. The little sucker came out of Ripley, not Jones. (2) I felt the same way, though for a different reason. As soon as the "problem" started happening, I said to myself, "This has got to be a dream. I *know* Ripley is in later scenes in the movie, so she can't die here and now." On the other hand, there was a dream sequence in new version of THE FLY that took me somewhat by surprise. I knew there was something strange about what was happening, but it still took me by surprise. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 19 Aug 86 10:44:28 GMT From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes: >> Another calculation: with a 100% efficient rocket drive (e.g. >>matter to energy conversion powering a laser pointed out the back) >>the constant-acceleration 4-LY 10-month one-way trip would require >>a fuel to payload ratio of more than 35:1. This really is the >>absolute, theoretical limit for a ship powered by onboard fuel. > >First of all, this is in no way an absolute, theoretical limit; >merely a practical constraint which could be violated if rapid >transmission of the payload were sufficiently valuable. All right then, explain how. I'm looking forward to hearing your explanation of how this theoretical limit can be exceeded. I suspect it is about as valid as Newman's energy machine -- for some reason I'm always suspicious when people challenge straightforward physics calculations with no details or calculations of their own. >Second, picking up your fuel as you go along may well be practical. >This nullifies the whole calculation. I don't deny this possibility, which is why I explicitly stated that the calculation applies only to ships powered by onboard fuel. Note, though, that the fuel available to be picked up is hydrogen and other matter -- since it can only be fused, rather than converted directly to energy, the efficiency is much lower. I'll try to do a calculation on the amount of hydrogen that has to be collected to power such a ship. I suspect it will be impractically large. David desJardins ------------------------------ Date: 19 Aug 86 14:53:41 EDT From: Ray <CARON@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU> Subject: Aliens{what again?} Just read _Alien_ again and a few quick thoughts from it. 1) Cold sleep: Commonly called "hyper-sleep" so why would it be called that unless they had some type of hyper drive? 2) The Alien Ship: They kept mentioning how the ship looked like it was "natural" or "grown"(sp?). It was mentioned that the inside of the hold looked like a whale belly. Would this give credence to the idea of THE ALIENS being genetic constructs? Because if the race that flew the ship could "grow" something like that it would be easy to "grow" the "aliens" presumbably to be warriors. Just a quick note about my last message about the plant explosion. I had forgotten about it being a fission reactor, but that would support the idea of the impossiblility of the explosion even more. According to current technology, I know that it is in the far future but just listen, it is the common agreement that because of the high-temperature and pressures involved in even acheiving a reaction the narrow range where the reaction is sustained would be a self moderator{flame me out on this but it is my view from the present state of technonlogy at the Tokamat Accelerator at Princeton} Ray Caron@Blue ------------------------------ Date: 19 Aug 86 16:17:59 GMT From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton) Subject: Clearly this is how the ALIENS sequel will work Many are speculating about what an ALIENs sequel would be like. Many hints are left during the movie. During the fight between the Queen alien and Ripley in the waldo-suit, the alien touched her fingers briefly to Ripley's face and said, under her breath, "remember." Then she was cast out into space and no doubt got sucked up into the Phantom zone. Newt is raised on Earth and forgets her parents. Soon it is discovered that she has amazing strength and blood with a very low pH. Ripley, on the other hand, is going crazy with the Ka of the alien within her, and keeps saying weird things like "take me back" in sepulchral voices. On her way back to the alien planet to regain her sanity (On alien planet, sanity *very* serious) her ship is stolen by a pirate. The pirate is played by the same actor that played Hicks, but he is *not* the same character. Anyway, the resulting fight opens a gash in the Phantom zone, and out plops the soulless body of the Queen at a convenient height for safe re-entry. (Did I mention that the alien planet blew up and they are actually on the next planet out which moved into its orbit?) They all land, and Ripley is drawn to the body of the queen. After a big ceremony with alien vestal virgins who somehow were vacationing on the next planet out when the main one exploded, the Ka of the queen is back. Being a nasty old bitch, she starts attacking things, and the now young-adult Newt has to fight her. As they fight, Newt gets a hit in, prompting the Queen to bite off her hand. The Queen says to Newt, "Ripley never told you what happened to your mother." Newt says, "She told me enough. She told me YOU killed her!" "No, Newt", says the Queen, "I am your mother!" Newt can't take it, so she jumps off the mountaintop, only to fall into the tractor beam of a ship flown by an artificial person. As they attain orbit, the drop a bomb down a tiny volcano shaft that goes right down to the core of the planet, and the planet explodes. (No doubt leaving the next planet out to reluctantly wander into that orbit.) In the debris, we see the Queen in her fighter ship, spinning out of control but alive. closing credits Brad Templeton Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: 19 Aug 86 15:35:42 GMT From: vaxwaller!cw@caip.rutgers.edu (Carl Weidling) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) > franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >> desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes: >>Second, picking up your fuel as you go along may well be >>practical. This nullifies the whole calculation. > I don't deny this possibility, which is why I explicitly stated > that the calculation applies only to ships powered by onboard > fuel. Note, though, that the fuel available to be picked up is > hydrogen and other matter -- since it can only be fused, rather > than converted directly to energy, the efficiency is much lower. > I'll try to do a calculation on the amount of hydrogen that has to > be collected to power such a ship. I suspect it will be > impractically large. Isn't this the idea of the Bussard Drive (I may be remembering the name wrong, but I think it was a serious proposal made maybe in the 60's), a sort of ramjet that only worked when the ship was moving at high speed, popularized by Larry Niven in many of his science fiction books? Regards Carl Weidling ------------------------------ Date: 19 Aug 86 23:26:32 GMT From: calmasd.CALMA!jnp@caip.rutgers.edu (John Pantone) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints diana@enmasse.UUCP (Diana Carroll) writes: > desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes: >> Alpha Centauri is about 4 LY away; to travel this distance in >>10 months (ship time) you would have to travel at .9790c. Certainly >>not unreasonable. To travel 20 LY in 10 months, .99913c. > > 480% > > That makes sense because lightyear is defined as the distance > light travels in one year. If you travel four light years in > under four years, so are going faster than the speed of light, > si'? Also (4.8c) times (10 months) is (four years), the time it > would take to travel four lightyears AT the speed of light. By who's frame of reference? I think that both of you may be "right". A 10 month trip (as viewed by the astronauts) would seem to take 4.8 years to an astronomer on earth. Carl "BILLYUNS and BILLYUNS" Sagan wrote in his COSMOS book that by approaching the speed of light (>>90%) a circumnavigation of the entire galaxy could be made in aprox. 50 ship-years, which would seem to earth-bound viewers to have taken hundreds of millions of years. I don't know the specifics of time dilation, but this fits the notion I got from several explanations of relativity. John M. Pantone @ GE/Calma San Diego ...{ucbvax|decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jnp ------------------------------ From: m128abo@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Michael Ellis) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) Date: 22 Aug 86 12:57:31 GMT >>Second, picking up your fuel as you go along may well be >>practical. This nullifies the whole calculation. > > I don't deny this possibility, which is why I explicitly stated >that the calculation applies only to ships powered by onboard fuel. >Note, though, that the fuel available to be picked up is hydrogen >and other matter -- since it can only be fused, rather than >converted directly to energy, the efficiency is much lower. I'll >try to do a calculation on the amount of hydrogen that has to be >collected to power such a ship. I suspect it will be impractically >large. One possibility for transgalactic travel would require sweeping up *entire stars* in order to maintain constant {ac,de}celeration until one arrived at one's destination. Presumably, stellar engineers would forge black holes out of the material of many suns into some peculiar geometry. If GR permits such things, the truly cosmic traveller might wish to never stop accelerating, and, by gulping up ever larger quantities of stellar material, ultimately develop a voracious appetite for galaxies, clusters of galaxies, and so forth.. Perhaps one could thus waste the entire universe, thereby participating as an active agent in the ultimate apocolypse, assuming a closed cosmology. michael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 86 09:55 EDT From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: aliens...original idea? Does anyone remember a movie called "It! The Terror From Beyond Space"? Made in the early fifties, this flick scared the bejezus out of me when I was a mere tot. It involved a spaceship landing on Mars in order to determine the fate of the previous mission there. While the crew are investigating the mystery, the creature who slew the previous astronauts creeps into the ship through an open hatchway (of course, no one realizes this until after take-off). The rest of the movie shows the efforts of the astronauts trying to destroy the creature as it slowly take over the ship, gradually forcing them to take refuge in higher and higher levels of the ship. As it breaks through to the uppermost level, where the survivors are huddled, they finally don their space suits and evacuate the air from the ship, killing the creature by suffocation. I thought of this film the first time I saw 'Alien'. This creature even had the habit of traveling through the ships ducts, where it brought its victims. I thought it was an effective attempt at a horror/sf movie for its time. Anyone else remember this gem? I haven't see it in years... ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 86 13:11:48 GMT From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes: >franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >>desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes: >>> Another calculation: with a 100% efficient rocket drive (e.g. >>>matter to energy conversion powering a laser pointed out the >>>back) the constant-acceleration 4-LY 10-month one-way trip would >>>require a fuel to payload ratio of more than 35:1. This really >>>is the absolute, theoretical limit for a ship powered by onboard >>>fuel. >> >>First of all, this is in no way an absolute, theoretical limit; >>merely a practical constraint which could be violated if rapid >>transmission of the payload were sufficiently valuable. > > All right then, explain how. I'm looking forward to hearing >your explanation of how this theoretical limit can be exceeded. I >suspect it is about as valid as Newman's energy machine -- for some >reason I'm always suspicious when people challenge straightforward >physics calculations with no details or calculations of their own. Now wait just a second -- that's not quite what Adams is saying (i.e. that the theoretical limit can be exceeded.) I admit it wasn't well phrased, but what he is saying is that if you are willing to accept a 35-1 mass ratio you can still do it: 35-1 != impossible. >>Second, picking up your fuel as you go along may well be >>practical. This nullifies the whole calculation. > > I don't deny this possibility, which is why I explicitly stated >that the calculation applies only to ships powered by onboard fuel. >Note, though, that the fuel available to be picked up is hydrogen >and other matter -- since it can only be fused, rather than >converted directly to energy, the efficiency is much lower. I'll >try to do a calculation on the amount of hydrogen that has to be >collected to power such a ship. I suspect it will be impractically >large. Gee David, I didn't realize you knew so much about 100 percent conversion drives and such -- tell me, what is the usual fuel for 100 percent mass-conversion? What is it about the protons and electrons in hydrogen that makes them so much more intractable? Now I admit I don't know how to build a total-conversion reactor, but I am suspicious that hydrogen would be at least as good as anything else, and perhaps better -- easily ionized, easily transported, and widely available (!). By the way, did everyone notice that David desJardins has an aphorism immortalized in CACM in the last couple of months? Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Sep 86 1112-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #269 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 4 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 269 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Aug 86 16:49:09 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: Elvish Rings and Swords >Somehow Gandalf using the power of an Elven Ring, which was >supposed to be kept VERY secret, for the most amazing fireworks the >Hobbits had ever seen just does not click. I feel that he received >Narya more BECAUSE he was a lover of flame. . . . This seems much more logical. Certainly it would be vital to the West that no hint ever reach Sauron (and therefore, any of his servants) that Gandalf was the bearer of one of the Three. Using it in prominent displays seems a very foolhardy thing to do in light of this need. Personally, I've seen no evidence at all that the Ring of Fire had anything to do with actual fire. I assume it was so named because the brightness of its ruby resembled fire. >When Gandalf is battling the Balrog in Moria he mentions that he is >the wielder of the "Flame of Anor". Now some believe that means >Narya (myself included), but here's another possiblity: Glamdring >his sword. For Orcs anyways the Elven swords gleam with a bright >light that they find painful (remember in The Hobbit when they >battled under the Misty Mountains...). This sword might be capable >of doing the same to a Balrog??? Oh well, it's an idea... An interesting idea, but it doesn't seem to me to hold. Glamdring was produced by Elves for use against Orcs. The Balrogs were Maiar, vastly more powerful than Orcs, and considerably more powerful than Elves. It doesn't seem logical that they would fear the light of Elvish swords. Certainly this one didn't seem to: it bore down on Gandalf as fast as it could. The only time when evil things seemed to fear Elvish artifacts (Shelob fearing Galadriel's phial, for instance) was when those artifacts had some influence from Valinor itself. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 86 16:54:23 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: TOLKIEN'S RIDDLE TO ENTER MORIA >We now know this to mean "Speak _the word_ friend, and enter". The >word friend is, of course, mellon. I'd better read that piece again. I thought Gandalf's original error was translating "say" as "speak", and that the correct translation was "Say friend and enter". The distinction between the two words can be subtle. I suppose it's even possible that the Sindarin dialect used in the inscription used the same word for both. I'll have to check the appendices to see, if I can, which is right. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 86 17:51:31 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: Bombadil; Gollum >Actually, Tom holds some power over the Ring. He could make it >disappear. Yet Gandalf preferred to say that the Ring had no power over him. I suppose the "disappearance" could have been some simple sleight of hand. Certainly Bombadil regarded the Ring as rather insignificant. >And now, for some wanton speculation. I think Bombadil is a side >effect of Melkor's discord to the Song of Illuvatar [sic]. Or perhaps of his later distortions of all the Valars' attempts to shape Middle Earth. According to the Silmarillion, that interference caused Middle Earth finally to resemble neither the design they had originally "sung" for Iluvatar, nor the disaster that Melkor preferred. So there was a great deal there foreseen by neither party. It's an interesting thought that Bombadil might have come from that. >2) Neither Gandalf nor Elrond know very much about him. They know >about balrogs, about Sauron, about the Valar and the Maia and the >rest; but Gandalf knows remarkably little about a major league >entity in his own back yard. I hardly think anybody, even of the Wise, can be expected to know *everything* that's happened over multiple millenia over the whole expanse of Eriador. I don't know quite what "major league" means, but if you mean that he was a great influence in local events, I must point out that he was not. He had withdrawn into bounds of his own choosing, and exercised so little influence on the world outside that almost nobody had ever even heard of him. He was surely one of the least of the Wise' concerns. Yet in fact, the Elves did know of him, and Gandalf knew enough to dismiss him as a possible keeper of the Ring. Oh, important point I'd forgotten: in considering whether Bombadil should be asked to receive the Ring, the council of Elrond considered that, although Bombadil seemed to have power in the Earth itself, Sauron had power to destroy the very Earth (I assume they knew the current appearance of the land north of the Black Gate). So we can assume that Bombadil's power was less than Sauron's. Now, does that tell us anything more about what he may be? >4) The good from evil theme. There is the whole bit about not >killing Gollum because some unforseen good might yet come from him. >Gandalf makes this point quite a few times. Where does he get this >peculiar idea from? What good had ever come from Morgoth, Sauron, >Ancalagon or the rest of the baddies in the mythos. This hope that >good can come out of bad is, from Gandalf's view, not very >supportable. "Baddies"? What a gentle term for what Sauron and Melkor were. I don't think you are distinguishing what Gollum was; but Gandalf did. You cannot lump him with Sauron or Melkor: that's like comparing a stinging insect with a volcanic eruption. They were vast, lust-filled, demanding utter dominion. He was tiny, pitiable, wretched, desiring only to recover "his precious", to eat fish in peace, and to be left alone (after being revenged on Bilbo). He was a murderer, of course, and personally dangerous, but he was not a mass murderer or enslaver. The thing that Gandalf recognised, as soon as Bilbo had told the story of the riddles, was that Gollum was either a hobbit himself, or closely related. Obviously, although the creature was by now insane with the Ring's torment, there was still a core of strength which kept the Ring from completely dominating him; that same core of strength which Gandalf had so often observed in the hobbits he knew, though they seemed soft and weak on the outside; the same strength which, according to "The Hunt for the Ring", Sauron found resisting all his inquisitions when Gollum wandered into Mordor. He could have overwhelmed that strength, but only by actually killing Gollum. And it was in that hobbitish strength that Gandalf sought the final salvation of Middle Earth, if it was to be found anywhere. It was in Bilbo and Frodo; it was in the younger hobbits; and it was in Gollum. And in all those places, Gandalf needed to use it if he could. There also seems to have been about Gollum a wretched helplessness that struck those who could dispose of him. Bilbo felt it, even when Gollum would have killed him; Gandalf felt it; and Frodo felt it, after having declared that "he deserves death". Even Sam, whom Gollum utterly disgusted, spared him at the last moment on Orodruin. Gollum is one of the finest and most terrifying touches in the story, and he deserves careful study. Lin Carter talks about him in "A Look Behind the Lord of the Rings", if you'd care to see a discussion. >Now if Bombadil is a side effect of Melkor's song, Gandalf can have >a good reason to believe in sparing Gollum. Sorry, I don't follow this at all. What have Bombadil's origins (or Bombadil himself, in any way) to do with Gollum? >The major point against (other than no real shred of plausable >evidence) the proposition is the assertion that evil doesn't create >anything. That would mean Melkor's song couldn't create Bombadil >directly. But Illuvatar rechanneled the discord into his Song, so >perhaps that's sufficient to cause creation. I think the Silmarillion supports you in this. Even if Evil could create, it's obvious that Bombadil is not such a creation. But the entire creation of Middle Earth was distorted by Melkor's constant attempts at destroying it, so a number of things happened that had not been foreseen. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 21 Aug 86 20:22:19 GMT From: elrod@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Doug Elrod) Subject: Origin of hobbits: query Has anyone seen anything published about the origins of hobbits in Middle Earth? I believe that someone posted a message to this group a few months ago claiming them to be a type of man?! I think that they are a separate race created by Illuvatar (probably to handle problems such as those created by rings -- note that Gollum was of hobbit-kind). The only real evidence I have found so far is Treebeard's willingness to add them as a new class to the list of "free people" (and he is well known for not being "hasty"). Mail to me if you like, and if any answer seems conclusive, I'll post to the net. Thanks. Doug Elrod ARPA: delrod@celery.tn.cornell.edu delrod%celery.tn.cornell.edu@cu-arpa UUCP: {ihnp4,cmcl2,decvax,vax135}!cornell!batcomputer!elrod BITNET: L4oJ@CORNELLA US Mail: Psychology Department, Uris Hall, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 86 21:03:23 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: Who was Tom Bombadil? >Hmmm... For what it's worth, Bombadil started out as the subject of >a cutsey little poem, "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil," wherein >Gberry also appears. I have never found any of Tolkien's poetry "cutesy". The poem "Adventures of Tom Bombadil" is fun, and a capsule version of what we see of him in LotR. The book has other attractions for those so inclined, such as Frodo's poem "The Sea Bell" (a rare poem for hobbits, who almost never saw the sea), and Bilbo's delightful "Errantry", which is said to have some relation to his poem on Earendil, read at Rivendell. >It seems, in fact, that the appearance of Tom was a >spur-of-the-moment thing with JRRT, using a character he >liked/loved in an odd context, and was just a moment of whimsey -- >which he never fully rationalized into the context of Middle-Earth. "There are more things under heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy." One of the attributes of a real world is that it has vastly more components and dwellers than can be described in a single work. Complete explanation of every feature and person and how they fit into Middle Earth would be quite impossible -- and it would probably drag miserably if it were tried. That Tolkien shows us somebody who doesn't seem easily to fit the rest of Middle Earth (and he certainly fits the Old Forest well enough) doesn't detract from Middle Earth's reality -- it heightens it. If Tom was indeed added on the spur of the moment, then Tolkien must have the most carefully deliberated such spurs. Remove him from the story, and what happens? The hobbits never acquire their swords from the barrows -- in particular, Merry doesn't get the sword with which he later helps kill the Lord of the Nazgul. Tolkien points out at the time that that sword had been forged with exactly that enemy in mind. Also, Frodo doesn't get the opportunity of the dream where he saw Gandalf imprisoned. So Tom certainly fits in the stream of things. He is by no means merely a pleasant diversion in the plot. >That he is NOT a Maia is clear, however; the Ring had no power over >him (nor, I seem to recall, he over it), yet Gandalf's fear to take >the Ring makes it clear that the Ring DOES have the power to >corrupt a Maia. This is a fine and an interesting point. Gandalf fears that he would yield to the Ring's temptation, and therefore fall to it; Tom doesn't care about it. But there are other clear differences between them beyond simply Tom's perhaps not being a Maia. Gandalf is charged with the defence of Middle Earth against Sauron, but in the form of a Man, with his powers and his memories limited. Though a Maia, he hasn't nearly the full resources that a Maia might usually have. And over so restricted a Maia, the Ring might very well have power. Tom is under no restriction but what he himself chooses. He regards Sauron and his "tricks" as irrelevant. Perhaps for an unrestricted Maia, the Ring presents no threat. Or you could be absolutely right: Tom could be a being much more powerful than Maiar, and unconcerned with their toys. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 86 20:13:13 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Who was Tom Bombadil? curtis@leadsv.UUCP (John Curtis) writes: >In the chapter "The White Rider", where Gandalf describes his fight >with the Balrog, he states that after they hit the bottom of the >abyss, he pursued the Balrog through very deep and dark passages. >He says something along the lines of: > "Those tunnels were not made by Dwarves, Gimli son of Gloin. Far >beneath the nethermost tunnels of Moria the Earth is gnawed by >nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than >he." > > Older than one of the Ainur! Now perhaps Tolkien might have >written this chapter before he formalized his "Creation Story", but >I don't see this why the passage can't be taken at face value. >Either Illuvatar made some beings BEFORE he created the Ainur (just >for practice) ;-) ;-) OR there are some beings in Tolkien's cosmos >that were not created by Illuvatar. Or Illuvatar didn't create all the Ainur at the same time, and Sauron was one of the later ones to be created. Or age in Middle Earth is measured from the time a being enters Ea, since the Outer Darkness where Eru dwells is said to be beyond time as well as space. (Certainly when Gandalf talks about his death, he mentions wandering beyond time). I do not see any problem with Sauron entering Ea later than many of the other Ainur, and thus being "younger" than them. >One additional bit: > There is also a reference in _The_Hobbit_, when Bilbo was >wandering through the goblins' tunnels after being seperated from >Thorin and Co, about the original owners of the tunnels, who were >there before the goblins, still "nosing around in odd corners and >slinking about". I would imagine these were mostly beings like Ungoliant or some of the earlier attempts at breeding a race of servants by Morgoth. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 86 06:17:00 GMT From: context@uw-june (Ronald Blanford) Subject: Re: Origin of hobbits: query While there's no direct evidence that Illuvatar didn't create the Hobbits, consider the following. Despite their similarities to men, Hobbits resemble Dwarves and Ents more in that they were much more interested in their own affairs than those of others, and that they faded and disappeared as men came to dominate the world. (The same could be said of elves, but we know about their origins explicitly.) Dwarves were made by Arda (as I recall) and Ents by Yavanna, and both species reflected the particular interests of their creators. Both were allowed to exist by the will of Illuvatar, except that their span was explicitly limited to the period of men's growth, and they were to disappear when men reached their ascendancy. Manwe interceded with Illuvatar on Yavanna's behalf when she wished to create the Ents. Might he not have also had the foresight to ask for yet another race of beings? If so, that would explain their similarities to the Dwarves and Ents. Manwe of all the Valar was most like Illuvatar (except for Melkor), and if he were to create a race, it seems likely that they would resemble a race (men) that Illuvatar himself created. He was also the most aloof of the Valar, so it's not unreasonable that the elves knew nothing of Hobbits. This would also explain why Gandalf, being a Maia of Manwe, might take particular interest in the Hobbits and their affairs. Comments, anyone? Ron ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Sep 86 1136-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #270 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 4 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 270 Today's Topics: Films - Heavy Metal & Run Silent Run Deep (2 msgs) & Star Trek IV & The Fly (2 msgs) & Gross and Disgusting Movies (2 msgs) & SF Movies on Video (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Aug 86 05:52:27 PDT (Friday) Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment From: Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM On the subject of SF films, nobody has yet mentioned 'Heavy Metal'. Despite all its obvious faults, it has some classic moments. (Like the scene with the hijacked buxom young earthlette and the robot: Robot: "Do you think you could marry me?" BYE: "Nah, I'd always be worried about coming home and finding you screwing the toaster") (Oh yeah, and one of my personal favorites - "The Strategic Defence Initiative: An Overview", promo vid by the DOD. SF or what?) Hugh ARPA: Hippo.SBDERX@Xerox.COM ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 86 22:16:53 GMT From: ihuxn!gadfly@caip.rutgers.edu (Gadfly) Subject: Run Silent Run Deep >>Sort of a silly title, really. After all, "In space, no one can >>hear >[your engines]." > It seems to me I read that the original idea for the film was > supposed to be a tense human vs. aliens film. It was supposed to > be a science fiction version of RUN SILENT RUN DEEP. The concept > of the film changed (and not for the better) but the kept the > title. I agree--"Run Silent Run Deep" is the archetypical submarine movie, which I remember more for its having Don Rickles in the cast than anything else, but it was a tense one. Perhaps more cerebral was the destroyer vs. sub battle of "The Enemy Below". Anyone want to discuss submarine flicks? ken perlow (312)979-7753 ..ihnp4!iwsl8!ken ------------------------------ Date: 3 Sep 86 07:19:12 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Submarine Flicks >I agree--"Run Silent Run Deep" is the archetypical submarine movie, >which I remember more for its having Don Rickles in the cast than >anything else, but it was a tense one. Perhaps more cerebral was >the destroyer vs. sub battle of "The Enemy Below". Anyone want to >discuss submarine flicks? Both are good films with ENEMY BELOW probably having the edge. (It has been too long since I saw RUN SILENT, RUN DEEP. Both seem rather Hollywoodish beside DAS BOOT (THE BOAT). That is probably the most realistic submarine film and one of the tensest. I understand that the one cinematic convention is that on board the men quickly stripped to wearing at most underwear and often nothing. The book makes a point of how hot it is on the sub, but I don't know if it talked about the state of undress of the men. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 86 07:44 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: ST IV Cc: StarTrek^.x@Xerox.COM,Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU>, Cc: crash!pnet01!victoro@nosc.ARPA (Victor O'Rear), mab@ads.ARPA Cc: (Mike ***SPOILER*** Now, it happens that a document, labeled "ST IV: The Voyage Home Rev. Shooting Script March 11, 1986" has fallen into my lap. Since the info it contains fits in with almost everything else I've heard, I believe this to be genuine. Overall, I'm very impressed. While the plot, as we've heard from the rumors, seems both familiar and silly in spots, there are enough charming character bits, so much of the Old Star Trek, that I think it's going to be a fun movie. I also think the special effects will be terrific; very much in the Star Wars vein where they marvelously enhance the story rather than the TMP style where they take over. The movie opens, after the (surprise, everyone!) dedication to the Challenger crew, on the bridge of the USS Saratoga, featuring, at last, a female Captain. A strange alien probe is approaching, neutralizing starships as it goes, and heading straight for Earth. How original. From there we go to the Federation Council where Kirk and Co are being tried, in abstentia as they've taken refuge on Vulcan. The Klingon ambassador even gets to put his two cents in, as does Sarek. Back on Vulcan, Kirk and Co. decide to return to Earth and face the Council. Frustratingly, the question of Saavik's pregnancy is NOT ANSWERED in this script, but only hinted at, mostly by Kirk's line "Your leave has been granted for good and proper cause. How are you feeling?" Spock has his memory back, intellectually, at least. But he's back to being cold and unemotional, which, of course, drives McCoy nuts. ("I liked him better before he died.") Amanda shows up for a silly emotional scene. Back on Earth, the probe shows up, Starfleet launches everything they have at it, but it does no good. As the probe beams its message in, clouds form all over the Earth, rain starts, floods, etc. At this point, Kirk and Co. show up in the Bird of Prey, listen to the message the Probe is sending out, and quickly determine that the sounds are whale songs. Well, since the whales are extinct, and seem to be the only ones who could figure out what the probe wants, Kirk and Co decide to go back in time to pick up a few. After an exciting ride, they do arrive in 1986, but have a little problem with their dilithium crystals. Don't worry; Spock's got an answer. Our Heroes break into teams: Chekov and Uhura are sent to find a nuclear reactor to collect some photons that will solve their dilithium crystal problem. This leads them to the USS Enterprise where Chekov gets captured, and injured while trying to escape. (Yes, Chekov gets hurt again.) Spock and Kirk go to track down a couple of whales which they find in captivity, and, of course, Kirk gets involved with a pretty marine biologist. Scotty, Sulu and McCoy go in search of something they can use as a tank and get it by teaching a manufacturer to make transparent aluminum. (I can't wait to see the scene with Scotty working a Macintosh!) They reunite when Chekov gets injured, breaking into a hospital with McCoy rescuing him (and some random patients) from our barbaric 20th century medicine. Our whale expert manages to tag along. The whales get released from captivity and are just about to get speared by whalers when Kirk and Co. beam them up. They all arrive back in the 23rd century in the nick of time. Lots of excitement, including Kirk's heroic effort to Save the Whales from a sinking Bird of Prey. The whales hear the probe's message and sing back in classic Close Encounters conversation. The storms clear, a rainbow appears, everyone is happy. Even the Federation Council. They drop charges against everyone but Kirk, who they demote to Captain. And give him a new ship. Guess which? I'll give you a hint, the number is NCC 1701 - A. Lisa Wahl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 86 17:52 EDT From: Barry Margolin <Margolin@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: The Fly (SPOILER) 1. Regarding the dream sequence: I was much more impressed by this than the dream in Aliens. First of all, there was little indication that it was a dream until the very end, and even then I was willing to believe it was possible (except that I got confused about the time factor, because it didn't seem like a grub that big could gestate in the time I thought had passed). More importantly, I didn't know how much had been in the dream and how much was real. In particular, I wasn't sure whether she was actually pregnant. This ambiguity added to the tension of the following scenes. I expected to find out when she went to visit Brundlefly, but they kept the suspense up until she went out to the car. 2. Suspension of disbelief. Given the original premise, I didn't have too much trouble dealing with mingling of DNA sequences, although it is pretty amazing that the result was viable. I have more trouble believing that a matter transporter would distinguish between organic and inorganic matter. My natural presumption is that a transporter works at the molecular or atomic level, but organicness is a macroscopic property. Even if there is something special about organic molecules (they are generally pretty complex) this would not explain the results in the failed experiments, such as turning a baboon inside out. Finally, his statements about the computer not understanding flesh nearly sent me into hysterics. barmar ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 86 14:10:06 GMT From: glasgow.glasgow!jack@caip.rutgers.edu (Jack Campin) Subject: Re: The Fly CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU writes: >My final question is, has anyone seen the earlier films by this >demented director? I believe they are Scanners and Videodrome. I >have heard they are quite gory and bizarre too. Are they similar >in quality to The Fly or just pure gore? If they are like The Fly, >I will want to see them sometime, but I want to avoid gore for >gore's sake. Videodrome is ghoulish and superb - it's an allegory about what TV does to your mind, with some of the most repellent special effects I've ever seen (e.g. the bits where the hero inserts a videotape into a gaping slot in his belly, or where a revolver grows into the flesh of his arm). Also includes some fairly convincing S/M and a great sendup of Marshall MacLuhan. The only other Cronenberg film I've seen is "Crimes of the Future", which I saw at a film festival ten years ago and may never have gone on general release - I suppose the major movie distributors just couldn't see the market potential in in a movie about a cancer clinic full of homosexual pus fetishists ... ------------------------------ Date: Tue 26 Aug 86 09:31:20-PDT From: Mary Holstege <HOLSTEGE@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Gross and disgusting movies Several times now I've seen someone (here or in newpaper reviews) describe The Fly as an extraordinary gross movie. Yet most of these people have ALSO described it as a good or even great movie. This boggles my mind: from my taste perspective gross and great are inherently contradictory terms. SOOO.... Question number one (for my husband): For those unfortunates who have seen Andy Warhol's Frankenstein (or who have seen as much of it as they could stand) how does the Fly compare in grossness? Not as gross? Grosser but not as sick? Special effects that were equally a waste of good celluloid? Question number two (I am probably going to regret this): the general subject of gross and disgusting movies. I am not so much interested in which movie rates as the most disgusting of all time as in WHY movies are made (increasingly so, it seems to me) which are disgusting. I'd especially like to hear comments from people who enjoy movies like, say, the Fly (the trailers for which I cannot bear to watch). What is the interest? Technical excellence? A thrill? Do you shut your eyes during the gross parts? I am serious about this and don't mean to denigrate anyone for having different taste than me; I'm just curious about what I find a rather interesting phenomenon. Mary ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 86 17:01:10 GMT From: minnie!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Grevstad) Subject: Re: Gross and disgusting movies From: Mary Holstege <HOLSTEGE@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> >Question number one (for my husband): For those unfortunates who >have seen Andy Warhol's Frankenstein (or who have seen as much of >it as they could stand) how does the Fly compare in grossness? Not >as gross? Grosser but not as sick? Special effects that were >equally a waste of good celluloid? It's been many years since I have seen Andy Warhol's Frankenstein. It seems to me that The Fly is perhaps more gross but not as sick. At least in most portrayals of Dr. Frankenstein, he was a somewhat deranged man. Warhol pictured him as sick and perverse. Seth Brundle (The Fly) was a man who was overtaken by a severe problem, one which he did his best to cope with. I considered answering the second part of your article but I found I was a little confused as to why I watch those kinds of movies. I can say that it isn't for the gore. And no, I don't shut my eyes during the gross parts. Chris Grevstad {sdcsvax,hplabs}!sdcrdcf!psivax!nrcvax!chris ihnp4!nrcvax!chris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 86 21:57:53 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: SciFi Movies on Video > Firefox (Clint Eastwood as a Russian? Hard to believe) Don't. Eastwood does not play a Russian. He plays a US pilot recruited to steal a new Russian MIG which is extremely fast, and undetectable to radar (lots of other advantages, too, but you get the idea), and therefore, a terrible threat to Western security. His closest connection to Russia is that he speaks Russian fluently: learnt from his grandmother, or something like that. And of course, he has the appropriate list of personal problems to complicate the mission at the wrong moments. Not actually too bad a film: there have been much worse. The red-bashing and the propaganda are perhaps halfway controlled. And some of the photography is great. Multi-mach chases over the snow-draped Urals and the arctic ice cap. > That's a partial list. I will provide add-ons later. I'll be waiting. I'm a little surprised that Raiders of the Lost Ark didn't make it to this edition. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Wed 27 Aug 86 10:38:49-PDT From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA> Subject: Movies on Video, Part III Here's another addition to the video list of sf/fantasy movies. By the way, send ratings directly to me (5=must see, 1=skip, and varying degrees between). Aliens from Spaceship Earth Alien Dead Alien Prey Cavegirl Cat from Outer Space, The (Disney film) Conquest (bad.....) Chitty Chitty Bang Bang Dark Star Damnation Alley Dreamscape Fly, The (the original) Glitterball Godzilla vs. Megalon Gorath Gorgo Hangar 18 (this one has a 2nd, unrecalled title) Heartbeeps (w/Andy Kaufman and Bernadette Peters) Ironmaster (franco-italian with a lot of grunting) Invincible Barbarian (another franco-italian) Killers from Space Martian Chronicles, The (a 3-volume set from the TV mini-series/special) Man From Atlantis, The (w/Patrick Duffy from the TV show) 1984 (w/Richard Burton) Purple Monster Strikes, The (cliffhanger serial w/martians) Return of the Fly Return to Oz (Disney) Santa Claus Conquers the Martians (w/Pia Zadora) Thunderwarrior (another franco-italian) Time Rider Time Travelers Ultimate Warrior (w/Yul Brynner) Varrow Mission, The Warlords of the 21st Century Wizard of Oz (the original w/Judy Garland) * Zombies of the Stratosphere (a personal favorite: Commando Cody vs. the Martians in another cliffhanger serial. It has Leonard Nimoy as a Martian who can breathe underwater). I have not included any of the daily animated shows but some of these available are: Robotech (good, but only three vols. avail.), He-Man, Transformers, and a host of others. Coming in October: _SPACE_CAMP_ Not exactly the best movie but somewhat entertaining and, besides, currently I'll watch anything with Lea Thompson in it. Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 86 19:27:12 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: SciFi Movies on Video, Part II > Doctor Who: Revenge of the Cybermen (w/Tom Baker) I don't understand. Why, from more than 20 years of continuous production, do you choose this particular Doctor Who? Amusing, but certainly not one of the best. Tom Baker is in great form, but the special effects people aren't. > King Kong (1933 w/Fay Wray) Did anybody else find that this was better, even in its effects, than the later version (which gave Jessica Lange such a bad name until she proved so very well what she could do)? > Logan's Run For anybody who has only seen the abortive TV series that tried to stand on this one's feet, take heart: the film is *far* better. Micheal York is great as Logan. Pardon my memory, but I can't remember who played the woman with whom he "run"s. She is also very good, though. > Planet of the Apes (the whole series) The book of Berton Rouche's, on which these are based, is, to my mind, far better than the films, even the first one. The main story is contained between a most interesting prologue and epilogue. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Sep 86 0846-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #271 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 5 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 271 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov (2 msgs) & Chase & Koontz & Lindsay & McIntyre & Plauger & Swift ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Aug 86 14:08:28 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: R. Daneel Olivaw I think that R. Daneel was the one who removed all references to EARTH from the Galactic Library on Trantor. Anybody agree? Sarek st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 86 15:09:50 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: story query >This was proposed in a science fiction story I read a while back (I >forget title and author). A scientist invented a time machine and >decided to send a chemistry book back to the ancient Greeks. He >succeeded. However, the man he had hired to translate the chemistry >book only translated the parts of the book that the ancient Greeks >knew (basic atomic structure, etc.) This sounds like Asimov's "The Red Queen's Race" (I wouldn't have recognized it but it showed up in some questions for our trivia bowl written by a friend with a major interest in alternate worlds.) ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 86 16:15:30 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: _The_Game_of_Fox_and_Lion_ by Robert R. Chase I haven't heard of Robert R. Chase before. My loss, if he has written other books and they are as good as this one. It re-hashes old themes: war, superman (the main character has artificially enhanced intelligence, the "bad guys" have enhanced strength and endurance), politics, and so on and on. But it held my interest and made me think by using these old themes in pretty original ways. Chase also has a pretty good turn of phrase. Some random snippets of conversation to show the general flavor: "I have been sane for years, and it is much less than it is cracked up to be." "Don't prattle on things beyond your understanding. Even now, if you had any true penitence, I might intercede for you. But all you have is fear for your own wretched hide. To regret doing a wrong simply *because* it is wrong -- well, I can see from your face that the idea fills you with complete incomprehension. No, Couteau, your disloyalty is exceeded only by your shortsightedness. There is little in you for salvation and scarcely enough for damnation." "There are some holy men here. There are even more who could be. I, however, coming to Ariel, considered transubstantiation and the Parousia one with phlogiston and the houses of the zodiac. 'Holiness' was a meaningless word." "Then why did you come here?" she asked. "For the best reason in the world," he said lightly. "To keep on breathing." "I am just about as clever and farseeing as my legends credit me with being. I can win this war, but even I cannot establish peace." This fluent way with words, and the fact that the book deals with interesting ethical issues in a relatively deep non-sophomoric fashion makes the book well worth reading. And the fact that it is fun also makes it enjoyable to read. Very *very* nicely done. Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 86 9:08:01 CDT From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA> Subject: STRANGERS, by Dean R. Koontz STRANGERS, Dean R. Koontz, G. P. Putnam's Sons, New York, 1986, ISBN 0-399-13143-4, 526 pages. I thought it might be worth mentioning this book to the list; I just ran across it on the "new book" shelf at the St. Louis Public Library and read it this weekend. It was not classified by them as SF, but as regular fiction; however, I always thought of Koontz as an SF author, and I would define this book as SF. To give details as to why would be a spoiler, though, so you'll have to trust me... It is much like the usual Stephen-King-type of supernatural thriller, and in fact there is a back-cover blurb from King. (Also one from John D. MacDonald, and one from "Mary Higgins Clark" -- who is she? I do not recognize the name.) It does have a fairly gripping quality to it, and I enjoyed it more than I expected to. The ending seemed rather weak, though, and not up to the quality of the rest of the book. A non-spoiling mini-summary: A number of people, in different locations across the US, unknown to each other, begin having unusual psychological episodes, phobias, and obsessions. The book follows a half-dozen of them in detail, over a period of days, tracing the development of these effects, and bringing out the threads of commonality which bind these strangers to one another. They eventually join one another and discover the cause and their true relationship. Speaking of Koontz, the "Also by" page (is there a better or "official" name for this page in a book [the one before the title page where they list other books by the same author]?) lists the following titles: DARKFALL, PHANTOMS, WHISPERS, THE VISION, and NIGHT CHILLS. None of these ring a bell with me, and none sound like SF -- has Koontz moved away from SF to "horror/thrillers" instead? Anyone have anything to say about these other books, or other things by Koontz? Regards, Will ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 86 09:25:47 cet From: ESG7%DFVLROP1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Commentary on David Lindsay David Lindsay, the Arcturan Voyager by Gary A. Allen, Jr. David Lindsay is a unique phenomenon in Science Fiction. He was a contemporary of Jules Verne and H.G. Wells. However, he was so far ahead of its time that today he is widely regarded as an author without equal. Lindsay's history as an author is both sad and interesting. Lindsay was born on 3 March 1878 in a London suburb. Until about 1916, he worked as an insurance clerk for Lloyd's of London and had not written a single book. In 1916 at age 38, he married and opted to give up his secure job as a clerk to take up writing. His first book is in the opinion of many his greatest achievement. This book was entitled A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS and was published in 1920. His second book THE HAUNTED WOMAN was published one year later. THE HAUNTED WOMAN is regarded by some commentators as being even better than A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS. Both books were commercial failures and were remaindered. A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS sold only 596 copies from a press run of 1430 copies. The London Times panned the book without mercy, and it was subjected to ridicule by contemporary literary critics. It should be emphasized that these first two books represented the commercial high point of Lindsay's career as an author. His later books, which even by modern standards were inferior to the first two, fared even worse in the commercial world. By 1939 after failing to find a publisher for his last book THE WITCH, Lindsay gave up writing and turned to running a boarding house for a living. On 6 June 1945, David Lindsay, a broken and despondent man, died from a tooth infection. The writings of David Lindsay would have died a dusty death along with their author had not Victor Gollancz, a friend, republished A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS in 1946, one year after Lindsay's death. Then something truly marvelous happened: 26 years after the book had been written, it achieved a limited popularity. Even so, it was not popular with the general public. Instead it was an underground success with England's literary elite. One of Lindsay's early fans was the Christian apologist C.S. Lewis. Lewis wrote about Lindsay in a letter to Charles Brady: The real father of my planet books is David Lindsay's A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS, which you will also revel in if you don't know it. I had grown up on Wells' stories of that kind, but it was Lindsay who first gave me the idea that the "scientifiction" appeal could be combined with the "supernatural" appeal. From that time on A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS was considered required reading among England's literary elite, and yet his books were once again out of print and seemed destined for obscurity. It didn't happen, as about every 15 years a reprint would turn up. His works have never had a wide popularity. Nevertheless, Lindsay's books have always maint-ained a core of devoted readers that refuses to dissipate with time. Lindsay himself realized this would occur and once commented to Gollancz: "Somewhere in the world, someone will be reading a book of mine every year. " Many books and articles have been written about Lindsay and A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS. The following are the more important commentaries: The Strange Genius of David Lindsay by John Baker 1970 The Haunted Man by Colin Wilson 1979 David Lindsay by Gary K. Wolfe 1982 The story of A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS has a rather mundane beginning. By page 39 (page references refer to the Gregg press edition which is a reprint of the 1920 original), one is seriously thinking of flinging the book into the trash can. In the first 39 pages all that apparently happens is that the 3 principle characters meet and are transported from the Earth to an alien planet which will be the scene of action. The reader is accosted with some rather bizarre names: The three chief characters are Maskull, Krag, and Nightspore. The alien planet is called Tormance. If the reader had pitched the book into the trash before reaching Tormance he would have made a big mistake. The boredom of the first 39 pages and the funny names are all calculated for an effect. The transition from Earth to Tormance is absolutely breathtaking. The closest analogy I can think of is from the movie THE WIZARD OF OZ where Dorothy walks from her house into the land of Oz, the film changes from black and white to color, and Dorothy announces, "You know Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore." From that point on the reader is kept in a perpetual state of information overflow. I'm not talking about the overflow as in a low grade Swords-and-Sorcery novel where the author is pouring forth zillions of proper nouns without definition. Rather, we're speaking about concepts, symbolism and fast paced action. David Lindsay did something that no one else in SF achieved in that he pushed the SF literary form to its limits and had then gone beyond. The story of A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS could not be expressed in any other medium. The chief character, Maskull has discovered himself on a world where one grows and discards new senses and awarenesses with seeming abandon. The premise upon which the novel is based is the concept of God as an immoral and unethical entity. The true God of Tormance is Surtur. Surtur is a creative deity from which all life emanates. However an anti-God, Shaping, has overthrown Surtur and dominates Tormance. Shaping feeds on life itself by giving the life force a physical form. Maskull is unwittingly thrown into the middle of this cosmic struggle between these two deities. Maskull was sent to Tormance by the personification of Surtur, Krag. However he was literally left naked and totally ignorant of the true state of affairs upon his arrival on Tormance. Shaping, the god of lies, has the first crack at Maskull. From there the story unfolds as Maskull travels through the surrealistic landscape of Tormance to his own ultimate destruction and resurrection. One can read A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS for pure entertainment. There is lots of action and interesting characters are brought in with almost wild abandon. Lindsay creates plot devices, SF concepts, and sensual imagery that I've seen no where else. The real thrill to this book, however, is in its intellectual challenge. Everything in this book has triple nested symbolism. The name Tormance can be broken down to romance, torment, dominance. Pain is associated with Surtur, while pleasure is associated with Shaping. The name Maskull leads to man and skull, which symbolizes the conflict of the spirit and the body. Everything in the story is color coded. There are five colors on Tormance based on two color systems, which in turn are based on the two stars of the Arcturan system. The first color system is from the star Branchspell and uses the colors yellow, red, and blue. The second color system is from the star Alppain and uses the colors jale, ulfire, and blue. Branchspell is the larger star and has associations with Shaping. Alppain is a small blue binary companion and is associated with Surtur. The colors red and jale are compliments and associated with feeling. The colors yellow and blue are also compliments and associated with relation. The colors blue and ulfire form the last compliments and are associated with existence. If a creature appears in the plot and it is colored red and ulfire, the reader knows that the creature has the qualities of feeling and existence and is affected by both stars and deities. By now it should be clear by what I mean by information overflow. The theme of the book is a SF presentation of the philosophies of Nietzsche and Schopenhauer. If you are not overwhelmed by the information or the symbolism, then the philosophy will blow you away. His works demonstrate the power of SF as a consciousness expansion aid and a medium for abstract thinking. I strongly recommend the works of David Lindsay. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Aug 86 01:35:17 GMT From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: The Initial Voyages of the Starship Enterprise The book is in fact called _Enterprise: The First Adventure_, and arrived at my pet bookstore yesterday. Except for the first couple chapters which I read yesterday, I read the whole thing (371 pages) at a single sitting which concluded just a few minutes ago. Retroactive continuity is a difficult task, (though more and more writers seem to attempt it these days) but in my opinion McIntyre does a good job, neither expanding the characters' pasts beyond credibility through wild speculation, nor smugly inserting excessive hints of things we know are to come. Not that the latter are wholly nonexistent--the book ends with one, in fact, that had me chuckling aloud. My only complaint was that the alien spacecraft, which sounded suspiciously like the _Fesarius_ at first, had me mistakenly expecting a tie-in with the First Federation. All in all, a solidly entertaining new STAR TREK novel. I give it a high 2, perhaps a 3, on the -4 to +4 scale. pH P.S. I anticipate with interest comments on McIntyre's version of Janice Rand's past. ------------------------------ Date: Fri 22 Aug 86 16:10:21-CDT From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: P.J. Plauger I picked up a used copy of The 1976 World's Best SF (edited by D.A.Wollheim) and found it has a story by P.J. Plauger, "Child of all Ages". I believe this is the same P.J. Plauger that cs people know as the author of The Elements of Programming Style, etc. I enjoyed the story and wonder if anyone knows of any other stories he's written (short stories in magazines or novels). There was a Barrington Bayley story in this book, btw, which was interesting as well. (I remember there were some questions about Bayley as well as an argument about his writing quality a couple months ago.) Russ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 86 15:09:31 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Silverlock reference query >My wife and I have both recently read _Silverlock_, and of course >we spent quite a bit of time picking out all the references. One >that I couldn't place is the reference to the talking horses and >the Yahoos. Could anyone out there send me mail and clear up the >matter? Before you read another piece of modern SF, read GULLIVER'S TRAVELS; the reference is to book 4, the ]voyage among[ the Houhnhyms (I know I'm missing several letters in that spelling). This is the part that never appears in shortened versions, summaries, etc., because Swift was being bitter about all humans rather than merely satirical about clumps of them. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Sep 86 0921-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #272 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 5 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 272 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Time Travel (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Aug 86 05:52:27 PDT (Friday) Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment From: Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM ulowell!rickheit@caip.rutgers.edu (Erich W Rickheit) writes: > [...] The possibilities of a nonexistent item appearing within a > time loop though, are staggering. What else could you do with > this? Am I the only one to have ever thought of such a thing? Try 'By His Bootstraps', a short(ish) story by Robert Heinlein, published in the anthology 'Spectrum 1' (selected & edited by Kingsley Amis and Robert Conquest). This story gets my vote for the best time-loop plot ever, executed with the usual RH polish. I shan't tell you anything about it, other than it features the kind of mind bending causal loops you mention. Hugh ARPA: Hippo.SBDERX@Xerox.COM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 86 14:35 EDT From: David H. Kaufman <Sr.Kaufman@SPEECH.MIT.EDU> Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment To: Erich W Rickheit <ulowell!rickheit%caip.rutgers.edu@MIT-AI.ARPA> From: ulowell!rickheit@caip.rutgers.edu (Erich W Rickheit) >[Discussion of a murder mystery based on a pistol in a time loop] >The possibilities of a nonexistent item appearing within a time >loop though, are staggering. What else could you do with this? Am I >the only one to have ever thought of such a thing? I don't remember offhand which book it was in (The Stainless Steel Rat Saves The Universe, perhaps?) but Harry Harrison plays this trick with the villain of his novel, a malevolent character called simply "He". "He" is determined to destroy the Special Corps, and the Stainless Steel Rat chases him all the way through the time loop, ending up victorious but very confused. One of my favorite time-travel scenes - it's from a Stainless Steel Rat book, but I think from a different one - is when the rat goes back in time to join himself watching a spaceship disappear: the first time through, he's obnoxious and witty and pleased with himself (as usual); the second time through he's on the receiving end of his own wit and ends up rather disgruntled. DHK ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 86 01:07:46 GMT From: hope!corwin@caip.rutgers.edu (John Kempf) Subject: Re: A Man Goes Insane While Pondering Time Travel Experiments From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson >I was pondering the question of time travel quite recently, while >trying to think up a story using that concept. I tried to come up >with some sort of "temporal physics" or "laws of time" that would >eliminate all the paradoxes that go along with it (pretty >ambitious, eh--but ultimately futile). And after reading all the >current postings about time travel, I'm more confused than ever. Is >there any way at all to zap through time and not contradict the >laws of the universe? Its enough to make one swear off time travel >forever (but I still watch Doctor Who, paradoxes and all! :-). Sorry to post this, but you came through on the fangs of a daemon, so... Try reading Roadmarks by Roger Zelazny. In there, he has a form of time travel that seems to avoid such things as paradoxes. While you are on the subject though, what is wrong with paradoxes? After all, just because it appears to be a paradox doesn't mean that it can't exist, does it? cory VOICE: (714) 788 0709 UUCP: {ucbvax!ucdavis,sdcsvax,ucivax}!ucrmath!hope!corwin ARPA: ucrmath!hope!corwin@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu USNAIL: 3637 Canyon Crest apt G302 Riverside Ca. 92507 ------------------------------ Date: 24 Aug 86 16:32:41 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Time Travel / Laws of conservation > desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) >> <PSST001%DTUZDV1.BitNet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> >>[Sending mass backwards in time should liberate energy, so] >>this might solve both our energy AND garbage problems. > Presumably sending objects into the past would *consume* energy - > it is only sending them into the future that would produce energy. I don't think you've thought it out quite thoroughly enough, David. Sending an object "back in time" would consume energy *in* *the* *past*, but would indeed release energy now, just as sending mass into the future would release energy now and consume it later. Look at a Feynman-like diagram: ->(energy)(c)--------------> ^ <------ ^ (a)------------>(b)(energy)-> Take an object (located at event a) and send it back in time (event b). Total mass for the universe decreases in that instant, and is replaced by some energy. When the object arrives in the past (event c), total mass of the universe *increased*, so energy is consumed. Note that this is the same as what happens when one looks at a positron as an electron traveling backwards in time... an electron (a) and some energy exist at first, then a pair-production occurs (c), meaning we now have two electrons and a positron, and finally we have anihilation (b) and are back with just one electron and some energy. Also, returning to the old chestnut of publishing a time/place and waiting for messages from the future, it seems you might have to supply the energy to manifest any messages the future might send you. The notion of needing a target to send back to was handled fairly nicely in "Thrice Upon a Time" by Hogan, one of the few time-travel stories that I found enjoyable (other than the classic Heinlein ones... (the classic ones, mind you, not the more recent "Lazarus and friends flail randomly around in space and time" flapdoodle)). Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 86 15:11 EST From: JimC@a Subject: Time Travel One of the problems of discussions of time travel is that so many people assume it to be a valid topic of philosophic discussion. In fact, the truth is that time travel is an *imaginary* construct which has a certain, fictional, or mythic, validity but which has no basis in reality, no matter what bizarre models physicists have come up with to explain the behavior of subatomic particles. The reason for this is simple: time travel is impossible. It's impossible for one chief reason--it violates causality. No matter what scheme you come up with, including parallel universes, time travel involves the violation of causality. The problem with violating causality is that it introduces a fundamental contradiction in the nature of reality: stated simply, if causality is violated, then reality itself would not be possible. Now many things are possible in our universe, but not everything that can be imagined is possible, and especially not things that are true contradictions (as opposed to "paradoxes," which are apparent contradictions). The causal stream is fundamental to all phenomena, and time is not so much a function of clock movement (the common human abstraction of the phenomenon, itself a kind of fiction) as the *change* of the underlying particles that compose all things. Time is thus universal change, and change is unalterable once it happens, otherwise it could not occur in the first place. This is the very nature and definition of reality. Time travel, a perfect example of a true contradiction, conveniently ignores all this for the sake of interesting plot and story development. Very often writers talk about time travel as a form of space travel, equating temporality with spaciality. But when you examine the two things closely, you can see that the analogy quickly breaks down. For one thing, time, i.e., change, is a property of space, not something separate. Time is a dynamic process; it isn't tangible; it isn't even real. It's the human generalization for the vast number of subatomic changes that have been occurring ever since the Big Bang first got everything going. It's the evolutionary difference between what happens now and what happens next. Redefine that process (as you must when you introduce a notion like time travel) so that the vector can work in the opposite direction on a macroscopic scale, then you have a universe that cannot logically exist as we know it. Like many bogus notions in art, philosophy and religion, time travel says more about human fancy to believe what it wants than human reason to ascertain what is actually true. In my experience, the latter has always been stranger, more wonderful and ultimately more "imaginative" than anything our poor brains can concoct in their pitiful attempts to play God. James Cortese ------------------------------ Date: 26 Aug 86 08:10 PDT From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM Subject: Gold Coin Revisited Cc: hjuxa!jjf@caip.rutgers.edu >> [This bring to mind a book by I. M. Notsurewho >>called 'Time >>and Again' which held the theory that to travel through time That is a great way of dealing with an unknown author's name, but the author is Richard Matheson. I remember going to the bookstore (W------) in San Diego which is mentioned in Time and Again. On my last visit I noticed it was no longer there, perhaps driven out of business? Marina Fournier Arpa: <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com> ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 86 22:35:25 GMT From: ihlpg!tainter@caip.rutgers.edu (Tainter) Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment > Your mechanism strikes me strongly as Deus Ex Machina, unless you > can explain why the character should expect to find a gun in the > drawer when he opens it to shoot his victim, since he has not yet > planted the gun at that point, nor why he should expect the drawer > to be empty when he goes back to plant the gun; there is no way > for him to know that his action was the cause of the gun being > there. There is a story about a time/travel parallel universe society. In this story a group has extracted historical individuals from some timelines (Khan, Catherine, Ivan, Hitler, etc) as infants and raised them in alternative universes as laborers and average people. The scientist who developed the time/space/universe doorways they use to move around finally objects to the exploitive behavior of the group but they get control of the devices to open these doorways and trap him in a particular time line. To get out of it he decides he will come back to save himself through some particular doorway and then proceeds to be rescued by himself, which he then sets out to do. He actually shows up as 6 of himself together and 6 of a friend (one of the relocated) also trapped with him. I can't remember who wrote it or what it was called but it struck me as very good reading when I read it many years ago. j.a.tainter ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 86 23:10:56 GMT From: ihlpg!tainter@caip.rutgers.edu (Tainter) Subject: Re: Time TRAVEL - An Insane Approach to Time Travel From: jhardest@Wheeler-EMH >HMMM... I wonder if one of a pair of sock can >time travel .. Oops. You caught us. We in the socks industry discovered that if we send a sock back in time then you have two socks. So instead of really selling you a pair of socks we sell you the same sock overlapped on itself in time. Unfortunatedly when it reaches the point at which we sent it back from one of the instances disappears and you only have one sock left. j.a.tainter ------------------------------ Date: 26 Aug 86 22:47:29 GMT From: felix!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Richards) Subject: Objects in a time loop >rickheit@ulowell.UUCP (Erich W Rickheit) writes: >> The possibilities of a nonexistent item appearing within a time >>loop though, are staggering. What else could you do with this? Am >>I the only one to have ever thought of such a thing? Karl Heuer writes: >No. I first saw this described as (plot sketch) man invents time >machine, travels to future, sees statue in park honoring himself as >inventer of time machine, brings it back as proof, same statue is >installed in park to honor him. The same idea has been used in >other contexts, though I haven't seen it used to create/destroy a >murder weapon. Jim Balter writes: >I think Heinlein has been there before you. Consider the >character(s) in "All You Zombies" who is his/her own parents, and >who drafts himself into the Time Service. And while the dictionary >in "By His Bootstraps" does not appear via a time loop, the >information in it does. This plot element was used in a film starring Christopher 'Superman' Reeve (Somewhere In Time?). Near the beginning of the film, an old woman hands him a gold pocket watch. This starts him on his quest to travel back in time, which he does. He meets the old woman as a young woman, and gives her the pocket watch. I had a real problem with this. I wanted to know where it came from originally. Dave Richards ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 1986 11:09:08-EDT From: wyzansky@NADC Subject: Re: Time Travel paradox In SF #260, Erich Rickheit gives an example of a paradox of time travel where a nonexistent item appears only within a time loop and asks if his idea is original. Of course, the answer is no. In _The_Time_Machined_Saga_ by Keith Laumer (Published in PB as _The_Technicolor(R)_Time_Machine_), there is a piece of paper describing a loop in time which is given by a future version of the hero to the current version (The English language is NOT set up for time travel!) who puts it into his wallet, where it stays until it is taken out and given to the past version. When the scientist is asked where it came from, he gives some answer like it was needed to close the loop and balance the energy levels. Another example is in a story from Astounding back in the early forties, _As_Never_Was_ by P. Schuyler Miller. This story is a gem which should be anthologized much more than it has. *** SPOILER FOLLOWS *** The inventor of the time machine goes forward in time and brings back a knife, made of a metal which cannot be analyzed but which is harder than any known metal. He dies shortly thereafter, so nobody knows when he went. The future is searched, without success, for the civilization that could make the knife, until his grandson builds a duplicate of his crude time machine, sets it to its limit (about 300 years) and finds where the knife came from - the ruins of the museum built to house the knife his grandfather brought back. Except, the knife brought back was whole, while the one in the museum had a notch cut out to try to analyze the material. The story ends on this note, leaving the reader to wonder about the paradox. *** SPOILER ENDS *** For Erich's story, he had better have the guy reload the pistol before he takes it back. Otherwise, one could only go through the cycle a few times before he hits an empty chamber and breaks out of the loop, cancelling it out as if it never happened, and leaving still more questions, like the spontaneous creation of a pistol, violating all of the conservation laws. Harold Wyzansky (wyzansky@nadc.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 86 18:46:34 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Time TRAVEL - An Insane Approach to Time Travel This brings to mind a thought I had a while ago. Imagine one of us computer programmer types being transported back to the middle ages or earlier, and making an honest effort to explain what we do for a living. They would think us magicians or wizards. "You take these ... things (golems?, demons? -- I don't quite understand) and you give them instructions on what to do -- in other words, you control them. Definitely a wizard." Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Sep 86 0945-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #273 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 5 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 273 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (10 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Aug 86 06:27:02 GMT From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) writes: >>>the constant-acceleration 4-LY 10-month one-way trip would >>>require a fuel to payload ratio of more than 35:1. This really >>>is the absolute, theoretical limit for a ship powered by onboard >>>fuel. >> >>First of all, this is in no way an absolute, theoretical limit; >>merely a practical constraint which could be violated if rapid >>transmission of the payload were sufficiently valuable. > >Now wait just a second -- that's not quite what Adams is saying >(i.e. that the theoretical limit can be exceeded.) I admit it >wasn't well phrased, but what he is saying is that if you are >willing to accept a 35-1 mass ratio you can still do it: 35-1 != >impossible. I don't know about this. To say that the limit can be "violated" seems to say that you can do better than the 35:1 ratio. Maybe we should let Frank clarify what he meant (I've been waiting for this for several days now...). I agree that 35-1 is not the same as impossible. >> I don't deny this possibility, which is why I explicitly stated >>that the calculation applies only to ships powered by onboard >>fuel. Note, though, that the fuel available to be picked up is >>hydrogen and other matter -- since it can only be fused, rather >>than converted directly to energy, the efficiency is much lower. >>I'll try to do a calculation on the amount of hydrogen that has to >>be collected to power such a ship. I suspect it will be >>impractically large. > >Gee David, I didn't realize you knew so much about 100 percent >conversion drives and such -- tell me, what is the usual fuel for >100 percent mass-conversion? What is it about the protons and >electrons in hydrogen that makes them so much more intractable? Matter and antimatter in equal quantities. You can't convert ordinary matter by itself into energy. I will admit however that it might be better to do somewhat better than fusing the hydrogen into iron -- there should be some additional release of energy if, for example, you could collapse the residue into neutronium. This is getting into the realm of the extremely unlikely, but I have to admit that I'm not sure what the absolute *theoretical* limit would be (in contrast to the rocket drive, where there is a clear physical limit). David desJardins >By the way, did everyone notice that David desJardins has an >aphorism immortalized in CACM in the last couple of months? I give up. What is a CACM, and what are you talking about? Am I supposed to be pleased or embarassed? ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 86 15:21:20 GMT From: fluke!moriarty@caip.rutgers.edu (Jeff Meyer) Subject: Re: Clearly this is how the ALIENS sequel will work And the music for the sequel will be done by John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith and James Horner (the latter desperately copying everything the first two produce). All of them will be fed large amounts of sugar and left with the London Symphony Orchestra and a organ grinder named Guido. I have spoken... *GONG*! Jeff Meyer ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA UUCP: {uw-beaver, sun, allegra, sb6, lbl-csam}!fluke!moriarty ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 86 18:19:04 GMT From: ihlpg!tan@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Tanenbaum) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) > [David desJardins] > Matter and antimatter in equal quantities. You can't convert > ordinary matter by itself into energy. > I will admit however that it might be bettre to do somewhat > better than fusing the hydrogen into iron -- there should be some > additional release of energy if, for example, you could collapse > the residue into neutronium. This is getting into the realm of > the extremely unlikely, but I have to admit that I'm not sure what > the absolute *theoretical* limit would be (in contrast to the > rocket drive, where there is a clear physical limit). The "theoretical" limit depends on which theory you use. David is assuming that the total baryon number (Protons + Neutrons - Antiprotons - Antineutrons, more or less) is conserved. Certain theories unifying the strong interactions with weak and electromagnetic interactions predict a violation of this conservation, e. g. protons could decay. I don't think you can speak of an absolute theoretical limit in this case except in the context of a particular theory. I know of no convincing theoretical argument that says that ordinary matter could not be converted to energy with virtually 100% efficiency. Of course, the theories predicting proton decay predict lifetimes on the order of 10**30 years, give or take several orders of magnitude. As a practical matter, David is right, at least for the forseeable future. Bill Tanenbaum AT&T Bell Labs Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 86 18:33:43 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) > franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) >> desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) >> [a 4-ly trip taking 10 subjective months requires a 35:1 >> fuel-payload ratio, and will require 8.5 or so g's. This is a >> theoretical limit for a reaction motor powered by on-board fuel.] > > Surely you don't think that 35:1 constitutes a theoretical limit! > I will assume you mean that 1:1 is an absolute, theoretical limit. Ah. I see what is going on here. Frank has misinterpreted what David said originally. What David said was that "you can't do better than 35:1", while Frank took the meaning to be "35:1 is impossible". In fact, in the original article, David says that the 35:1 limit makes the trip *impractical* (for the technology level shown in Aliens), not impossible. So I think Frank and Dave agree on this point. Basically they were disagreeing on what is meant by the phrase "theoretical limit" in this context. > I did the calculations for this a couple of years ago. It turns > out that for trips at a fixed acceleration, the ratio of total > inital mass of the ship including fuel to the delivered mass grows > exponentially. I was about to disagree, but then I realized *I* was probably misinterpreting *Frank*. In particular, I took the above to mean "The ratio of total initial mass of the ship to payload mass grows exponentially as the payload mass." After all, he did say acceleration was constant across trips, (trips at a fixed acceleration, right?) Well, I finally figured out that he meant that the acceleration *in* *any* *one* *trip* was constant, and that the mass ratio grows exponentially as the trip acceleration. I took "trips at a fixed acceleration" to mean "cases where there exists a constant 'K' such that for each trip 'T', the acceleration of T is K". I would have been less mislead if the above had been "trips at fixed accelerations", which I would have taken to mean "cases where for each trip 'T' there exists a constant 'K' such that the acceleration of T is K". Yet another natural language quantification and scoping ambiguity. Turns out to be easy to misinterpret English sentences, doesn't it? Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 86 18:33:51 GMT From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: Alien physiology -- comments benn@sphinx.UUCP (T Cox) writes: >hutch@hammer.UUCP (Stephen Hutchison) writes: >>The outer teeth are used to "cut" resin which is secreted by the >>Alien. The resin seems to be secreted by the "tongue" but not >>necessarily past the inner teeth. The flexible tongue allows it >>to spray resin all over the place (as was done by the one which >>roped up the pilot's hands as she was reaching for the controls, >>just before it killed her.) >> >>When the alien wants to feed, it feeds like a spider. It punches >>a hole in the victim and injects digestive fluids, then sucks up >>the results. > >Sorry, but no. No, no, no. That only works on creatures with >exoskeletons. An ant will dissolve and turn into a nice >spider-meal; but you and me would run all over the floor. No >external non-dissolving covering. And don't say "they coat people >with resin" because then you're investing shitloads of energy AND >bodily resources just for a meal. Yes, yes, yes. Spiders let their victims hang around. The Bugs seem to be very speed-oriented. The digestive juice, which does not have to be the same as their blood, could easily be exuded and sucked back in before the "meal" runs all over the floor. The only evidence we've got about what the Bugs eat is that we NEVER saw a human which had been eaten, only those which have been used as incubators. >I never saw an Alien *eat* anybody. Rend limb from limb, yes; >gouge chunks out of, yes; decapitate, yes. Eat, no. And as for >the crap I've read about eating brains and absorbing RNA, sweet >Jesus, who ever told you that knowledge was encoded in RNA?!? >Sure, cells' instructions, but do you think that all the stuff you >studied in college and high school is packed away as RNA? Anyone >care to enlighten us as to how memory is stored? I'll give you a >hint: It Isn't RNA. Wrong. RNA is a primary component in the encoding of memory. The other components are brain structure, and cellular interaction. Brain structure means that you can encode certain memories because there is a "wired in" section that can interpret the stored info. Cellular interaction is pretty much short-term stuff: excitation/inhibition levels which have to be "transcribed" by an incompletely understood mechanism probably related to a particular lump (whose name I forget) which is on the underside of the brain. The long-term information is certainly stored in a chemical code by chaining RNA together in a particular fashion. This has been demonstrated antagonistically by breeding mice with a genetic defect that greatly lowers the RNA production in their brains. Those mice did unusually poorly at maze-learning, etc. Those which were given RNA supplements showed marked improvement. However, strictly speaking, yes, there is no positive proof that RNA is the ONLY component in the encoding of memory. And >how do you have something that size squirrelled away inside your >body w/o noticing? Do the face-huggers remove your right lung to >make room? And just how do they get so big after they come out? >[Maybe they do eat people; then again, maybe they eat metal too.] First, they aren't THAT big when they are inside. Plenty of room in the abdominal cavity for a critter. Second, they seem to tie into the nervous system. They probably inhibit the senses that would let you know they are there. I don't know why they would then burst out of the chest. Maybe they DO live in the lung (*UGH*) and chew their way out. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: 26 Aug 86 18:38:40 GMT From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) writes: >[...] David is assuming that the total baryon number (Protons + >Neutrons - Antiprotons - Antineutrons, more or less) is conserved. What in sheol's an 'anti-neutron'? A neutron with opposite spin?!? kaufman@orion.arpa kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 86 17:08:40 pdt From: Mark Redican <vallejo!mark@sri-tsc.arpa> Subject: ALIENS SEQUEL THEORIES: There was a scene, if I remember it correctly, that took place in the colonist's med/bio lab, in which Bishop stated to Ripley that the Company Scumbag had ordered him to protect the alien facehuggers so they could be shiped back to Earth or Gateway or wherever. Those particular facehuggers were destroyed, but perhaps Bishop found a few more ... Someone also asked the question -- Why didn't Ripley just nuke the Alien ship from orbit? I suspect that there are a great many safeguards built into any weapons system capable of delivering nuclear weapons. Whether Ripley could get past these safeguards, even with the help of Hicks, is doubtful. Mark Redican ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 86 17:44:09 GMT From: ihlpg!tan@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Tanenbaum) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) > What in sheol's an 'anti-neutron'? A neutron with opposite spin?!? No. It's the anti-particle of a neutron. It is distinct from the neutron. Bill Tanenbaum AT&T Bell Labs Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 86 21:02:58 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Alien physiology -- comments hunter@oakhill.UUCP (Hunter Scales) writes: >I seem to recall some experiment done with planaria (flatworms) in >which a bunch of worms were trained to run a maze by use of >electric shocks. These were then ground up and fed to some >untrained worms and, lo and behold, these worms could negotiate the >maze with no trouble. Did I dream this or is this just part of the >memory puzzle? You didn't dream it, but that experiment has been pretty thoroughly discredited. It seems the second group was following chemical traces laid down by the first group; their feeding habits had nothing to do with it. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 86 23:27:17 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes: >franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >>desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes: >>> Another calculation: with a 100% efficient rocket drive (e.g. >>>matter to energy conversion powering a laser pointed out the >>>back) the constant-acceleration 4-LY 10-month one-way trip would >>>require a fuel to payload ratio of more than 35:1. This really >>>is the absolute, theoretical limit for a ship powered by onboard >>>fuel. >> >>First of all, this is in no way an absolute, theoretical limit; >>merely a practical constraint which could be violated if rapid >>transmission of the payload were sufficiently valuable. > > All right then, explain how. I'm looking forward to hearing >your explanation of how this theoretical limit can be exceeded. Surely you don't think that 35:1 constitutes a theoretical limit! I will assume you mean that 1:1 is an absolute, theoretical limit. But it isn't, you know. A fuel to payload ratio of 99:1 means your original ship requires 99 tons of fuel for each ton of payload; but there is nothing impossible about this. I suspect you were incorrectly assuming a constant mass for the vessel, including fuel, for the entire voyage. This is not correct; as you expend fuel, you no longer have to carry it. I did the calculations for this a couple of years ago. It turns out that for trips at a fixed acceleration, the ratio of total inital mass of the ship including fuel to the delivered mass grows exponentially. The practical constraints are quite real, but there is no "theoretical limit" short of the total matter in the universe. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Sep 86 1012-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #274 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 5 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 274 Today's Topics: Television - The Second Hundred Years & Quark & Tom Corbett (3 msgs) & Wizards and Warriors & Space: 1999 & Lost in Space & Doctor Who & Star Trek (3 msgs) & More SF on TV (3 msgs) & Title Request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 25 Aug 86 09:22 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: SF on TV Cc: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> >And I don't remember the name of the show but heres the plot: >Mountain man freezes in a glacier or something, a hundred years >later gets thawed out and goes and lives with his grandson who >happens to be about 30 older than he is. Oh, yeah! I think it was "The Second Hundred Years" with Monty Markham. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 86 15:21:24 GMT From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs Quark was a classic wasn't it. It starred Richard Benjamen as Capt Quark. I think it was one for more then one season, becuase I can remember 2 almost entirely different casts. But, the only thing I remember now is a pair a clones or androids. Phil Paone ------------------------------ Date: 24 Aug 86 16:31:34 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: SF on TV -- Tom Corbett, Space Cadet > jib@prism.UUCP (Jim Block) >> smg@ur-cvsvax.UUCP (Susan Garnsey) >>I never saw Johnny Quest, but the description sure sounds like my >>first intro to SF, the series of Rick Brant books. I had also noticed this similarity. I suspect it is coincidence only. > I certainly remember Rick Brant, along with Tom Swift, Jr, and Tom > Corbett, Space Cadet -- all were juvenilles that I grew up with. Speaking of Tom Corbett, I noticed browsing in a local VCR rental establishment that good old Tom made the tube in the fifties, with Willey Ley as scientific advisor. I haven't seen any of these yet... I intend to rent them when I have the time. Has anyone else? Anybody like to post a review? ( Interestingly, TC,SC had one story that included a mining planet where fissionables were so abundant that they would sometimes spontaneously support fission chain reactions. I (and most people I talked about it with) thought this was the most ridiculous thing we had ever heard. Until in the seventies, I heard about this little incident in Africa, 2 billion or so years ago if memory serves (:-), where there was a spontaneous fission reaction, right here on earth! "Hard to believe!" ) Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 86 06:51:51 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: SF on TV -- Tom Corbett, Space Cadet I was watching some of Tom Corbett, Space Cadet on one of the strange stations (Nickelodeon?) a year or so ago. I was rather impressed-- they seemed to actually be trying to put some science in their science fiction. So far as I know, that may be an only in american tv. I seem to remember that Tom Corbett was one of three SF soaps playing (live action, every day for half an hour. kind of limits your special effects). Another was Cptn Video and the Video Rangers. Does anyone remember the other one? david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 86 20:46:59 GMT From: ames!barry@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: SF on TV -- Tom Corbett, Space Cadet From: daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel): >I was watching some of Tom Corbett, Space Cadet on one of the >strange stations (Nickelodeon?) a year or so ago. I was rather >impressed-- they seemed to actually be trying to put some science >in their science fiction. So far as I know, that may be an only in >american tv. I'm not sure, but I seem to remember hearing that some real SF heavyweights did some writing for TC, possibly even including Heinlein. Anybody know for sure? Jayembee? >I seem to remember that Tom Corbett was one of three SF soaps >playing (live action, every day for half an hour. kind of limits >your special effects). Another was Cptn Video and the Video >Rangers. Does anyone remember the other one? I remember one called SPACE PATROL, but I'm not sure it was national; I saw it in LA. Had "Commander Buzz Corey", and a young sidekick with a dumb name, plus a very phallic space ship. That's all I recall. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA {ihnp4,vortex,dual,nsc,hao,hplabs}!ames!barry ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 86 17:12:36 GMT From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs davidsen@kbsvax.UUCP (Davidsen) writes: >Actually my favority SF TV show was a fantasy (and I really prefer >hard core SF) and a comedy to boot, _Wizards and Warriors_ which >was on for a summer and vanished. I got all the episodes on tape >except the first one, which I missed (sigh). ARE YOU KIDDING?!? During the pilot, my friend and I were betting on when it would be cancelled! I said, first episode. He said, 15 minutes! Yech! They DID, however, have one good line: "While we're in this cave, look for badgers. We can follow them to a source of water." >My wife votes for _QUARK_, the comedy about a galactic garbage >scow. It was *way* too subtle for the general public, with dozens >of double meanings and references. THAT was a good one, mostly for Richard Benjamin, and that plant-guy. How about UFO (from back around the mid-sixties)? Now THERE was an atrocious show! kaufman@orion.arpa kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 86 10:23:57 edt From: sm1j@andrew.cmu.edu (Stewart McGuire) Subject: SF - TV programs Since everyone is talking about SF TV programs I thought I would give my two cents worth. SPACE: 1999 Staring Martin Landau as Commander John Konieg(sp?) and Barbra Bain as Doctor Helena Russel. My favorite character, who only showed up in the second season, was Maya. Stewart McGuire Carnegie-Mellon University sm1j@TE.CC.CMU.EDU sm1j@CMUCCVMA.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 86 9:21:34 EDT From: Joel B Levin <levin@cc2.bbn.com> Subject: Lost in Space - Dr. Smith I, too, remember Dr. Zachary Smith. He was the character you loved to hate. Unfortunately, I was old enough to see through the childishness of his character and to be annoyed at the family's apparent inability to learn from their dealings with him. Younger viewers, of course, ate the show up. I have been planning to write this note because in all the digests I went through, including a huge stack yesterday, no one supplied one piece of information (till Jerry Boyajian let it slip in a note at the bottom of the stack) about Dr. Smith -- the name of the actor who portrayed him, Jonathan Harris. I easily recognized him when I first saw the program, I first knew him as Bradford Webster in the TV series _The Third Man_. He was sidekick / secretary / assistant (I forget which) to Harry Lime, played by a favorite actor of mine, Michael Rennie (a.k.a. Klaatu). JBL Arpa: Levin@cc2.bbn.com Usenet: {ihnp4|decvax|etc.}!bbnccv!levin or ...!bbncca!levin ------------------------------ Date: 26 Aug 86 18:20:17 EDT From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: WhoNews --NYC WhoNews: NYC area. WNYC channel 31 has gotten more Dr. Who episodes. Whereas they used to show only the TOM BAKER episodes, they now have the Davison episodes too. They will be showing them starting in September on friday nights at 9:00. More importantly, they are showing BLAKE'S SEVEN at 8:00 right before the good doctor. WLIW channel 21 also has more episodes! Whereas they only showed Tom Baker and Peter Davison, they have the COMPLETE package now. Hartnell to Colin! They too have BLAKE'S Seven. Saturday nights at 8:00. And in December they will show K9 and Company. It wasn't a such good story but it was great to see Elisabeth Sladen again. When will NEW JERSEY NETWORK get Blake's Seven??? I have heard a lot of good things about it but have never seen it. WPIX Ch. 11 will be showing an old HARTNELL movie on tuesday the day after Labor Day (Where is a calendar when I need one?) at 10:00 am (not sure check your local listings) Cheers, Stephen Pearl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 86 14:05:19 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Starfleet destruct mechanisms Okay! I finally figured this thing out. In STTMP, Kirk ordered Scotty, who was down in Engineering at the time, to carry out General Order [something-or-other]. This involved the antimatter pods. However, nobody ever said that the bridge destruct mechanism involved anti-matter! st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 86 17:42:03 GMT From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: ST IV Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM writes: >Even the Federation Council. They drop charges against everyone >but Kirk, who they demote to Captain. And give him a new ship. >Guess which? I'll give you a hint, the number is NCC 1701 - A. This is something I wanted to see: EVERYBODY demoted to their original ranks (sure makes things easier). Except Spock, of course: they make him a Rear Admiral for giving his life back in STIII! kaufman@orion.arpa kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 86 10:07 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Star Trek: Warp and Century Cc: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> I don't think he posted to SFLovers, but Alastair msged me about the inconsistancies I mentioned in ST's century and Warp factors. So, since I'm writing it up for him, I thought I'd post it, too, in case anyone else is interesting. Century: In "Space Seed" Kahn (No flames, please, folks, I can never remember where the "h" goes and whereever I decide to put it is guaranteed to be wrong.) is clearly identified as being from the 1990s, and Kirk tells him he's been sleeping for 2 centuries. This puts ST in the 22nd century. Yet, in "Squire of Gothos" they say they're 900 light years from Earth and Trelane has been observing the Earth of 900 years ago. ("...if someone had a telescope powerful enough..." And let's ignore the science of that, shall we?) Yet, Trelane knows about Napoleon. This puts ST in the 27th Century. Warp Factors: You folks can research the episode, I think it was the end of "Arena". Anyway, Chekov says. "It's a sixteenth parsec away. We'll be there in seconds." Now, conservatively, I'll assume I misheard and he said "sixtieth" and that "seconds" might mean as much as 60 seconds. That still puts the speed at over 27 THOUSAND times the speed of light. The popular theory that warp factor cubed gives you the speed of light means that, for that non-emergency little ride, they were going at Warp 30. Also, in "That Which Survives", the Big E gets hurled, is it hundreds or thousands of light years away? Coming back, they hit a MAX of Warp 14.1. Yet they make the trip in what can't be more than a few days. I leave the speed this involves as an exercise for the reader. Now, compare this data to "By Any Other Name" where they say that, even at the super warp speeds the Enterprise has been boosted to, it will take 300 years to get to Andromeda. There's no way you can come up with a maximum speed for the Enterprise that makes 1/60th of a parsec in seconds and doesn't make the trip to Andromeda a short hop. So, I conclude that "Warp" is not a measurement of speed, but a measurement of space distortion. The higher the warp, the greater the potential for space displacement, but the exact ability to traverse distances depends a lot on the starting and destination positions in space, the matter density in between, etc. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Mon 25 Aug 86 10:51:01-PDT From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA> Subject: OLD SF-TV All this reminiscing about old SF on TV reminded me of the first SF TV shows I remember watching as a pre-schooler, back in the mid-50s. They were animated features, shown (in the L.A. area) as part of a kid's show called "Sheriff John" (ah yes, the "law 'n order" 50's). The more sophisticated (??) was called "Space Angel", and featured that strange, cheapo animation technique where characters' mouths move (it looked like they had filmed an actor's mouth, then merged that with the non-moving cartoon) and occasionally large objects moved. (This was also used for an adventure series of the time called "Clutch Cargo"). The other, apparently aimed at younger kids, was called "Colonel Bleep", and featured a stick like creature with a bubble helmet and antennae (that shot out rays of some sort). No dialogue, just "bleep bleep" and maybe some narration(?). Does anyone else recall these shows? Steve Dennett dennett@sri-nic.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 86 07:01:59 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: OLD SF-TV Cartoons. Probably Hannah-Barbera. Definitely not up to Jonny Quest, but you take what you can get. I remember something called "Space Ghost". Space Ghost was a dogooder with these fancy powerbands with only three buttons that did an incredible number of things. He had these two twins (Jan and Jayce?) and their monkey (Bleep?). All three could turn invisible. Jan and Jayce would get in trouble, and Space Ghost would rescue them in the nick of time. They went around in a ship called The Phantom Cruiser. There was another called The Herculoids. Primitives who were being harassed by highly technical races. There was the poppa primitive, the momma primitive, and the little boy primitive. They had some companions--a family of giant amoeba-like things (I think they could spontaneously fission and refuse), a grenade-throwing rhinoid (six or eight legs--my memory isn't that good), and a super-strong gorilloid. Of course, the technological nasties would always get trounced in the end. Kind of back-to-nature, with a vengeance. The noble savage, along with his noble anti-aircraft rhinocerous. david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 86 18:59:52 GMT From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: OLD SF-TV Hey! Nobody's mentioned DARK SHADOWS yet! (O.K., so it's fantasy; so what?) Any soap opera starring a vampire can't be all bad,... And, while we're on a list of Japanimation, how about: Space Cruiser Yamato (a.k.a. Star Blazers) Gatchuman (sp?) (a.k.a. G-Force) S.S.X. 009 (a.k.a. Cpt. Harlock) Urashomon (sp?) (a.k.a. Future Police) Space Fortress Macross (a.k.a. Robotech) and a hundred others? (O.K. so they're not old. I can't win, can I?) kaufman@orion.arpa kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 86 18:32:47 GMT From: root@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Charles Root) Subject: Re: SF on TV > While we're on the topic of obscure SF on tv: Anyone remember a > very short-lived show about a total loser whose given some kind of > drug that elevates him to Superman powers? Was it Exo-Man, or Exor? I remember something along these lines, but the difference was that it was a scientist who was working on artificial muscles. He found that if he could apply enough energy to them, he could make these muscles quite strong. By linking them inside a self-contained suit, he made a workable unit. Some rival ran him over, crippling him completely. He then rigged a computer control setup for the suit so he could use it himself. He then becomes some sort of vigilante, looking for the people who hurt him. I distinctly remember one instance when he first uses the suit that it runs out of power, and he almost suffocates inside the suit. Beside that, I don't know whether it was a series or a tv movie. Perhaps it was a pilot that never got off the ground. Jonathan D. Trudel arpa: trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4,pyrnj,pyramid}!topaz!trudel ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Sep 86 1036-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #275 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 5 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 275 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov (3 msgs) & Cherryh & Clancy & Daniels & LeGuin & Plauger & Scott & Yarbro & Yulsman & Zelazny & New Books & Nature's End & Baen Books (2 msgs) & Time Travel Stories ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Aug 86 15:21:28 GMT From: unc!melnick@caip.rutgers.edu (Alex Melnick) Subject: Re: R. Daneel Olivaw >From: Garrett Fitzgerald >I think that R. Daneel was the one who removed all references to >EARTH from the Galactic Library on Trantor. Anybody agree? No, no, no. Go back and re-read *The Robots of Dawn* (or whatever it's called) again. It's R. Giskard (the supposedly inferior robot who can read minds and has the capability of independent action/thought) who is plotting to guide the future of mankind, not R. Daneel, who is really not an unusually impressive robot, aside from his physical appearance. I think Asimov is planning to try tying all his future histories together (a la Heinlein or Niven) with a direct link between the Susan Calvin stories, the Lije Bailey/R. Daneel stories, and the Foundation stories. Certainly such a link is suggested in *Robots of Dawn* and hinted at in *Foundation's Edge*. Personally, I don't think he should bother. There's something about having all the corners tucked in, with everything tied together and all the details accounted for, which is very unappealing to me, and I would hope that Asimov could resist the temptation. Alex ...!mcnc!unc!melnick ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 86 21:45:00 GMT From: hp-pcd!everett@caip.rutgers.edu (everett) Subject: new Asimov novel I noticed in the new issue of Locus that Isaac Asimov's new novel is to be published in September: Foundation And Earth. Everett Kaser Hewlett-Packard Co. Corvallis, OR ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 86 16:50:00 GMT From: hp-pcd!john@caip.rutgers.edu (john) Subject: Re: R. Daneel Olivaw From: Garrett Fitzgerald >I think that R. Daneel was the one who removed all references to >EARTH from the Galactic Library on Trantor. Anybody agree? That would have been easy since R. Daneel and Hari Seldon are probably the same person/robot but I feel that it was actually Joseph Schwartz behind that one. John Eaton !hplabs!hp-pcd!john ------------------------------ Date: 24 Aug 86 23:26:00 GMT From: mic!d25001@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Orphaned Response >P.P.S. Why does C.J.Cherry add an `h' to her name when she writes >books? I have heard that she picked that by-line because there was an established mundane writer already using her real name, Carolyn Cherry. For example, if your real name was Robert Albert Heinlein, you wouldn't be able to use your real name as a by-line either. (Not that the other Cherry is that famous.) The terminal 'h' certainly makes the name distinctive. I suspect that the initials are used for the same reason that many another female writer of sf adventures has disguised her first name -- too many people are afraid that teenage boys won't buy anything written by a woman. Carrington Dixon UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!mic!d25001 ------------------------------ Date: Mon 25 Aug 86 18:06:14-CDT From: CS.VANSICKLE@R20.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: Red Storm author interviewed Tom Clancy, the author of Hunt for Red October and Red Storm Rising, was interviewed on National Public Radio's All Things Considered last week. He said that every device and technology used in his books already exists, and that he "doesn't want to write science fiction." Don't get me wrong - the books are superb, both the can't-put-down variety. I just thought it interesting that Clancy doesn't consider them science fiction or futuristic. Larry Van Sickle cs.vansickle@r20.utexas.edu ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 86 16:41:31 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: THE DRACULA MURDERS by Philip Daniels THE DRACULA MURDERS by Philip Daniels Critic's Choice, 1986 (1983) A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper A vampire-style murder at a Halloween dress ball starts Superintendent Vine on a quest for the killer. But is the killer a man or something else? The writing style is crisp, the characters well-drawn, but the novel lacks any real tension or surprises. I hate to say if this is the kind of book you like, then you'll like this book, but that about sums it up. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 86 17:48:39 GMT From: slu70!guy@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Always Coming Home pete@stc.co.uk writes: >Anyone out there read this book? Any opinions/reviews? >I enjoyed it, with some reservations. I'd say that the book was more interesting than enjoyable. If you're expecting another "Left Hand of Darkness" you'll be dissappointed. She set out to write science non-fiction and largely succeeded. It reads like non-fiction, being rather dry and concenrned with details, and there is little true narrative. What there is is scattered throughout the book in small chunks, including the one extended narrative, which is more or less in diary format, not at all like a novel. If you are interested in how Leguin thinks, you'll probably like the book perhaps with reservations. The major shortcoming that I found was the flavor of didactism that permeated the book. The book that it reminded me most of in terms of ambience was Ecotopia, although there is no comparison is terms of the quality of writing or ideas. Actually, the comparison isn't all that good otherwise but I still find it the best.At least she doesn't beat you over the head with her pet philosophy, unlike some writers (e.g. RAH). I found the tape that came with it eminently forgettable. I'd give the book a +1.5 on the -4 - +4 scale. I enjoyed it more or less but I probably won't reread. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 86 02:31:25 GMT From: enea!peno@caip.rutgers.edu (Pekka Nousiainen) Subject: Re: P.J. Plauger I'm not sure about this but I recall reading (some 6 years ago) a short story called "Virtual Image" by Plauger. I won't spoil things by describing the plot here. Anyway, as with "Child Of All Ages", the feel of the story was what made it special, not the science-fictional elements. pekka ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 86 16:40:35 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: A CHOICE OF DESTINIES by Melissa Scott A CHOICE OF DESTINIES by Melissa Scott Baen, 1986 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper What if? In this case, what if Alexander didn't invade India and die as a result? What if he turned west instead? Though my knowledge of the history of the period is not strong enough to judge this book in that regard, a friend who has a degree in history claims it is accurate. The near-term changes may be realistic, but the interludes, set over a millenium after Alexander, seem disconnected from the rest with no real groundwork laid for their basis. Better than many Baen books, but still not quite there for me. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 86 16:42:37 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: A BAROQUE FABLE by Chelsea Quinn Yarbro A BAROQUE FABLE by Chelsea Quinn Yarbro Berkeley, 1986 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper This appears to have been written as a Gilbert & Sullivan operetta. Full of knights, dragons, princesses, and all the other trappings of chivalrous fantasy, it reminds me of nothing so much as WIZARDS AND WARRIORS. Okay, if a bit light-weight. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 86 16:39:29 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: ELLEANDER MORNING by Jerry Yulsman ELLEANDER MORNING by Jerry Yulsman St. Martin's Press, 1984 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper Elleander Morning is an enigmatic Edwardian woman who goes out one day in 1914 and shoots an anti-Semitic painter in a Vienna cafe. Now we all know who she shoots, so the question is "Why?" She obviously knows more about things than the average Edwardian, but how? Though the events that follow are well thought-out and for the most part follow naturally from this occurrence, the explanation for the occurrence itself is less than convincing and is in fact the weakest part of the novel. The gratuitous addition of H. G. Wells as a character is merely another example of the name-dropping that one often finds in historical fiction. Still, I would recommend this as one of the better alternate histories of late. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 86 12:48:25 EDT From: "Darrell Ringler" <dringler@ardec> Subject: Blood of Amber by Roger Zelazny To all you fans of Roger Zelazny and the Amber series, I just saw in my local bookstore _Blood of Amber_, the sequel to _Trumps of Doom_. Its a small hardcover book published by Arbor House. If it's at my local bookstore it should be at the bigger stores soon, but why they don't get it any earlier is unknown to me. Darrell Ringler dringler@ardec.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 86 14:25:41 GMT From: gouvea@h-sc4.harvard.edu (fernando gouvea) Subject: New books by G. Wolfe, H. Waldrop and K. S. Robinson Three very good new books that either have just come out or should be available soon: 1. Gene Wolfe, *Soldier of the Mist* --- Begins a new series, this one set in pre-classical Greece. Like everything Wolfe writes, not to be missed. It concerns a mercenary in the Persian army during the invasion of Greece who is wounded and loses his long-term memory: he can remember only the last 8 or so hours, and has to begin from scratch every morning. On the other hand, he finds he can now see and talk to the gods. Don't miss it. (TOR hardcover) 2. Kim Stanley Robinson, *The Planet on the Table* --- If you don't usually read short stories, make an exception for this: the man is a very good writer. He can create a mood and his characters come alive. (TOR hardcover) 3. Howard Waldrop, *Howard Who?* --- This is also short stories, by one of the most original and outrageous writers around. Waldrop has written only one novel, *Them Bones* (Ace Specials) (and one in collaboration, *The Texas-Israeli War*), but his short stories are better: wacky and wonderful, always different. Give this a try. (Doubleday hardcover) Fernando Gouvea gouvea%h-sc4@HARVARD.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 86 16:38:32 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: NATURE'S END by Strieber & Kunetka NATURE'S END by Whitley Strieber and James Kunetka Warner, 1986 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper The faults that I found in Strieber's WOLF OF SHADOWS are magnified here--but then this is about five times as long. It's preachy., God, is it preachy! Every ecological disaster warned against in the past ten years is in this book. Though it takes place forty years from now, there has evidently NOT been a major earthquake in California however, and I find the hi-tech aspects unlikely in a world as chaotic as Strieber and Kunetka describe. Little continuity flaws also mar the book--a character rescues his data disks by putting them in his wallet and, even though all his clothes are burned off, he still has the disks. There's also a secret enclave of genetically-enhanced super-intelligent children. (This really is a "kitchen-sink" novel.) Perhaps the problem is that Strieber is still trying to write horror novels which rely more on emotion instead of science fiction novels which rely on intellect. Taken as a horror novel, this isn't bad, but as science fiction, it doesn't make it for me. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 86 02:39:36 GMT From: tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway) Subject: Re: Baen books (and book clubs) I would guess that the reason why book stores don't take advantage of ordering via the "book club" is that they would not be allowed to return books as they can now. And since they certainly won't be selling the books for 50% off marked retail, which would be their cost, they won't be able to correctly guess their sales except that they will probably be lower. Under standard sales to bookstores of paperbacks, the store is allowed to return the cover of a pb obtained by "striping" them back to the distributor or publisher for a full refund. This is why there are all those warnings about not selling books and magazines which are missing their front covers. The reason for this is that it's not worth the postage to send them back relative to the cost of producing the book for the publisher. tyg ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 86 20:05:51 GMT From: ism780c!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Smith) Subject: Re: Baen books (and book clubs) mcb@styx.UUCP (Michael C. Berch) writes: >As much as I dearly love the Other Change of Hobbit and other SF >specialty bookstores, I can't quite see how Baen books is being >"unfair". Why can't the stores simply order through the Baen Book >Club, or if stores are expressly barred, in the name of (say) the >manager. Let's say the store does order from the club. If they want to make a profit, they will have to sell the books for a higher price than club members pay. It will always be cheaper for the consumer to join the club. Tim Smith USENET: sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim ima!ism780!tim Compuserve: 72257,3706 Delphi or GEnie: mnementh ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 86 09:23:58 edt From: firth@sei.cmu.edu Subject: Time Travel Stories First, a reference. The one where a chemistry textbook is sent back to hellenistic Alexandria is The Red Queen's Race - Isaac Asimov Secondly, there is almost a "sub-genre" out there of closed time travel stories, ie stories where there is only one, fixed time line, so the act of going into the past in some way causes the current present. The point usually is that the causal chain is very tangled, so the characters are at first baffled, then surprised. Heinlein's stories have I think been mentioned: By His Bootstraps and All You Zombies. Another really good one is As Never Was, by P Schuyler Miller. Man discovers time machine. Makes trip into future. Returns with utterly baffling artifact. Now read on... Another I recall is Aldiss' T, from Space Time & Nathaniel (an excellent early collection) I can think of three main themes to time travel stories (a) If you don't like the past you can change it: "With the time machine I vill give der Fuehrer the Bomb!" "Professor Bose is going to change history! We must get to the Chrono Lab first!" (b) If you don't like your life you could have lived it differently: "Johnny, I know you very well - better than you expect - and I tell you you MUST NOT go to the Red Sox game!" "Give me one good reason, old man!" (c) The closed causal loop: "Professor, your time machine cost $1000000000. How could you afford that on the pay of a CMU teacher?" "Simple. My first trip in the Chronoautomobile was to London in 54BC, where I invested one penny at 3% compound interest!" Any more? Robert Firth ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Sep 86 1102-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #276 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 5 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 276 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Worldcon Report (2 msgs) & Around the Galaxy in 50 years (2 msgs) & Transparent Radiation Barriers & SFL T-shirts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 1 Sep 86 1:11:18 EDT From: Ron Natalie <ron@BRL.ARPA> Subject: Report from the SF-Lovers Party at WorldCon Live from the @ party at the World Science Fiction Convention in Atlanta. We're fighting off the non-net people at the door, and having a wonderful time. An indication of our devotion may be derived from noting that we all wimped out of the masquerade (one of the MAJOR events at a worldcon) to get here. Hi--this is Evelyn Leeper and I'm tired of being half of "The Leepers". The new word of the con is "nogs"--novels of Gibsonian sensibilities, a.k.a. cyberpunk. Perhaps half a Leeper? What would that be? Hmmm..... Anyway, this is your host, Nick Simicich. It will be fun. I know it will be fun. I have faith. It will be fun? Anyway, it was interesting getting the party together. People kept sending me mail, and stuff. We also checked this disgustingly heavy computer and printer through and it survived. More later. Okay, it's a PC keyboard but I think I can stand it for a coupla minutes. This is Hobbit@Rutgers [yep, that's internet] I -- we, rather, probably will spend a little time at this [which by the way seems immediately to be a pretty good party!] and then wander off to find the darkest recesses of the Marriott. I don't quite know who I'm eventually typing at at the moment [actually right now it's to some crufty WP package] [Host note: It is IBM Writing assistant, the least-common-denominator word processor I have...] but it's good to be here. The con [aaaaAAAKK!! I just got *nailed* by an incoherent short-duration photon flux!!!] is very good [aside from the purple rectangles now floating in front of my eyes]. It is fun. If you didn't come to this one you *will* make Brighton and experience it for yourselves. --- _H* 860831.2255 the venn buddhist is here. Late breaking report: MG is not. He was noticed, however. there need to be a fax machine here, i cannot send my symbol as well. oh well. ps mason- get your butt down here. Hi there. This is ihnp4|mtgzz|leeper (secretly Mark Leeper) from Worldcon '86 where the cinema scene is a little dismal. Not one film on the film program that I haven't seen. I could have done better staying home and going to the local video store. Previews for NIGHTFLYERS look like it could be decent, though constrained by a low budget. Lucas is working with Coppola and Disney to make a 3-D film for Disneyland called CAPTAIN EO in which Michael Jackson dances aliens to death. Blech! I think Lucas has sold out to the lucrative side of the force. THRILLER meets STAR WARS is not my idea of creativity. What looks best of upcoming films is the musical version of LITTLE SHOP OF HORRORS. There, that saves me the effort of writing a con report. No, it doesn't. --Evelyn Leeper Ron of BRL and Mamaliz of the Soup Kitchen here. Just stopped in to see what is happening. Liz is still looking for a book in the huckster room which she can neither remember the title nor the author of. Oh, well...after we're done typing this we'll get this mother on the net. Liz says, "Sensitivity sucks!" This is MGrant@mimsy.umd.edu. It seems like the room is getting to small for this many @'s. There are @s on the floor, @s on the bed, @s in the door, @s... More @s are rolling in this minute. Well, having said basically nothing, I'm going to sign off... NEXT! Hi, I'm back (haas@mich-state.edu (csnet)). I wrote the first line before we decided we should let people know who to blame for all this. The air conditioning has finally met its match and the room is starting to warm up. We should have tried packing all the rooms this tight at Usenix, it would have cut down on the number of frozen programmers. NEXT! This is Kimi@ides.uucp, a visitor from USENET. You should be here...there is no exclamation point on this board... I came to this con alone and have met at least a hundred people here. The parties are great. Oh, Paul Haas just told me where the ! is!!! Hi, Chuq--sorry you couldn't make it. Hello World! hee hee hee. Not so funny? Well, you should be here, and I think it might be funny to you too. Oh well. By the way, this is coleman@ucsd.edu. NEXT? Greetings! This is jsloan@wright.{USENET,CSNET}. I'm here to tell you that Andy Warhol was right. Hullo, this is ins_bjms@jhunix -- the littlest orc at the party. Y'all should be here. But it's fun anyway.... [Editor's note. Apparently, "y'all" is a southern term indicating a group of human persons not including the speaker...I think that the Jersey/NY equivalent is "youse"...] Hello, Hello -- this is Charlie Martin (crm@duke) and I'm sitting here surrounded by people I've known for months or years but never seen. Did you know that Evelyn Leeper looks like Snow White? It's true -- black hair, pale skin, the whole thing. This is great. This is sx1100!jlr. This is my first Worldcon. My favorite quotes so far: "It's awkward to read a name-badge if it's pinned near your crotch." "Wes Craven is to directing as Attilla the Hun is to table manners." (That last from the Harlan Ellison stand-up routine.) And the following exchange from a couple of mundanes outside the Hugos: "You mean they actually write this stuff?" "Yeah, I think so." "Oh. I've always wondered what they look like." By the way...for those who are interested...here are the Hugo winners: Best Novel: Ender's Game, Orson Scott Card Best Novella: Twenty Four Views of Mt. Fuji by Hokusai, Roger Zelazny Best Novelette: Paladin of the Lost Hour, Harlan Ellison Best Short Story: Fermi and Frost, Frederick Pohl Best Non-Fiction: Science Made Stupid, Tom Weller Best Dramatic Presentation: Back to the Future Best Pro Editor: Judy-Lynn Del Rey... This award was rejected by Lester Del Rey on the basis that she would have objected to the award being given just because she had recently died. Best Pro Artist: Michael Whelan Whelan is going on sabbatical and has taken himself out of the running for one year so that someone else can win the HUGO (he has gotten it five years consecutively). Best Fan Artist: joan hanke-woods (she spells it without capitals) Best Semiprozine: LOCUS, Charles Brown (now if they would stop publishing Locus for a year) Best Fanzine: Lan's Lantern, George Laskowski Best Fan Writer: Mike Glyer John W. Campbell Award: Melissa Scott First Fandom Award: Julian Schwartz Big Heart Award: Rusty Hevelin Prometheus Award: Victor Milan, Cybernetic Samurai Promethean Hall of Fame: C. M. Kornbluth, The Syndic Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson, The Illuminatus Trilogy Best Famous Person Not Recognized By Anyone: Rich Rosen 1988 Worldcon Bid: New Orleans (sorry, Rich) 1989 Worldcon Bid: Boston (surprise!) Hello... oc.trei@cu20b here... this is who is here so far (at least, those who have signed the list...) math.linda@ucla-locus.arpa coleman@ucsd.edu jsloan@wright pratt@prosche.stanford.edu ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hyper!dean chris@tekig5 ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl jaffe@rutgers oc.trei@cu20b kevin clanton@mattapan (non net) mjs@ibm.com (who graciously hosted this party) chapman.es@xerox.com ks@a.cs.okstate.edu ks@svo.uucp (?) jkr@gitpyr haas@mich-state.edu.csnet moore@eglin-vax.arpa mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa gallaway@b.isi.edu mgrant@mimsy.umd.edu jim@mimsy.umd.edu ron@brl sommers@rutgers zeve@rutgers ...ihnp4!sx1100!jlr lcc.barry@ucla-cs ucla-cs!lcc!leeway hobbit@rutgers meister@borax ...ihnp4!ides!kimi crm@DUKE (ihnp4!mcnc!duke!crm) boyajian@akov68.dec.com ooblick@unirot random@unirot marick@gswd-vms ...!ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat ...!ihnp4!gargoyle!randy Breslau@MIT-OZ ...!ihnp4!cbmvax!snark!eric (various non-net Monkees Fans) This is your host speaking one last time. since it is my computer and my modem, I insisted on the last word. It has been fun. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Sep 86 01:46:33 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Card's Secular Humanist Revival Meeting Wanted Does anyone have a tape (video or audio) of Orson Scott Card's "Secular Humanist Revival Meeting" from Worldcon in Atlanta? I know many people taped it and I *think* the Con video-taped it. Will it be available? I would love to get a copy! Reply to me--do not follow-up! Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 26 Aug 86 20:25:11 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Around the Galaxy in 50 years... a puzzle > jnp@calmasd.CALMA.UUCP (John Pantone) > Carl "BILLYUNS and BILLYUNS" Sagan wrote in his COSMOS book that > by approaching the speed of light (>>90%) a circumnavigation of > the entire galaxy could be made in aprox. 50 ship-years, which > would seem to earth-bound viewers to have taken hundreds of > millions of years. Only if it takes the scenic route. Our Beloved Galaxy isn't all *that* large... it is (it is thought) about 100,000 or so light years in diameter. Thus "hundreds of thousands of years" is closer to the mark. That only makes the remembered figure off by a factor of a thousand. Close enough for government work, I suppose. (Or, if you work for the government, "close enough for the private sector", right?) Also, the >>90% factor is (despite the >>) somewhat of an understatement. Unless I've done my arithmetic wrong, the time compression factor for 90% lightspeed is "only" .44 or so ((1-.9^2)^.5, right?). In order to get the compression factor needed to circumnavigate the galaxy in less than a century, you'd need to be going at better than .999999 lightspeed (again, unless I did my arithmetic incorrectly). But all this leads to an interesting (I think so anyhow) puzzle. Let us assume we are on a spaceship which is in the process of circumnavigating the galaxy in 50 years subjective time, as outlined above. How much "centrifugal acceleration" do the inhabitants of the ship experience (relative to the center of the galaxy, of course)? (Or, equivalently, how much centripetal acceleration must the ship's engines supply?) Sadly, I'm not at all sure how to even approach this problem. (Or rather, I can think of several ways to approach the problem, but I'm not sure they are "correct".) Note, I am not asking the acceleration perceived by outside observers, but rather that observed by those onboard. Please mail answers to me. I'll post a followup. Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 30 Aug 86 09:40:36 GMT From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Around the Galaxy in 50 years... a puzzle throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes: >But all this leads to an interesting (I think so anyhow) puzzle. >Let us assume we are on a spaceship which is in the process of >circumnavigating the galaxy in 50 years subjective time, as >outlined above. How much "centrifugal acceleration" do the >inhabitants of the ship experience (relative to the center of the >galaxy, of course)? (Or, equivalently, how much centripetal >acceleration must the ship's engines supply?) This is not all that hard. Let the time, velocity, and acceleration as measured by the stationary observer be t, v, and a respectively, and the same variables measured on the ship be T, V, and A (note v = V). Use units of years and light-years, so c = 1. The stationary observer sees the ship traveling at c (to 8 significant digits), so it is easy to figure out the acceleration in his coordinates: we can use the "standard" formula v^2 / r ! So, in our units, a = 1/r. Now, how is the acceleration on the ship related to the acceleration measured by the stationary observer? Well, a = dv/dt, and A = dV/dT. So, since v = V, A = a dt/dT. But dt/dT is just the time dilation factor gamma, which in this case is (3.14 x 10^5 years)/(50 years) = 6283. So A = 6283 / (5 x 10^4 ly) = .13. Now, the units of acceleration in this system are ly/yr^2. Since I've done this kind of calculation before, I know that this comes out to be almost exactly g! To be precise, 1 g = 1.03 ly/yr^2. So the answer is that the ship acceleration is .12 g. David desJardins ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 86 18:07:55 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: transparent radiation barriers There's no need to resort to science fiction to find transparent radiation barriers. They are already in use. As they have to be, since you often need to be able to see the radioactive object you're using to be able to manipulate it, without subjecting your eyes to a dosage every time. The management of nuclear reactors, or the conducting of experiments in nuclear medicine, would be much more difficult without them. I believe lead glass is, or was, used for the purpose. I would imagine by now there are other substances, lighter and/or cheaper, that do the job. Nor does the idea seem to me intrinsically hard to follow. Even in the visible spectrum, things like coloured glass, or coloured gels, are transparent to one colour, but less transparent, or opaque, to others. I have no problem with the idea that some substance would pass the visible spectrum, but be opaque to other electromagnetic windows. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 3 Sep 86 13:32:31 GMT From: sii!kgg@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenn Goutal) Subject: SFL T-shirts? What's this about SFL T shirts? Is it too late to order one? (My contact with the net has been rather sporadic.) Kenn Goutal ...decvax!sii!siia!kgg ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Sep 86 0853-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #277 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 8 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 277 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Aug 86 00:05:37 GMT From: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu (Catherine Ariel Wolffe) Subject: Re: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints FTL travel is not explicitly stated in either movie, but it is inferred in _Aliens_. How else could the rescue ship reach LV-426 in only 17 days? And this time is objective. The length of time to LV-426 in _Alien_ is far longer than in _Aliens_, because technology has changed and the ships can attain greater FTL speed. Catherine Ariel Wolffe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 86 21:13:32 PDT From: crash!pnet01!gof@nosc.ARPA (Jerry Fountain) Subject: ALIENS I think everyone is making a big mistake on the FTL subject. I do not disagree with the comments about the shipboard time, *but* remember. The question was how long it would be until *THEY* could expect a rescue. The answer was 14 days (I think). This is *not* shipboard time but time spent on the planet. Now if someone wants to argue that the planet is speeding towards earth (or whereever) at close to c then you may have something but that is not the case here. Jerry Fountain ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 86 18:44:26 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: Memory and RNA >And as for . . . eating brains and absorbing RNA, . . . who ever >told you that knowledge was encoded in RNA?!? Sure, cells' >instructions, but do you think that all the stuff you studied in >college and high school is packed away as RNA? Anyone care to >enlighten us as to how memory is stored? I'll give you a hint: It >Isn't RNA. My understanding is that this is still one of the hot research areas of psychobiology. I think the current understanding is that our memory is holographic in some manner, and that, as in a hologram, it does not put discrete parts in discrete places. While damage to some part of the brain will impair some function, memories don't seem to be lost. This is all simply my latest understanding, and is definitely subject to correction. I believe the mention of RNA has cropped up because there has been some suggestion (in the literature, not the net) that RNA may play a role either in the storage of short-term memory, or in its conversion to long-term memory. I have no idea which RNA form (messenger, transfer, etc., or even a completely different one) was supposed to be involved. A versatile little (or not so little) molecule, that one. But given the lack of solid evidence of what *does* implement memory, I'm not at all sure I'd care to be as definite as that in stating what does not. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 86 07:43:30 GMT From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) writes: >I know of no convincing theoretical argument that says that >ordinary matter could not be converted to energy with virtually >100% efficiency. Of course, the theories predicting proton decay >predict lifetimes on the order of 10**30 years, give or take >several orders of magnitude. As a practical matter, David is >right, at least for the forseeable future. Hawking radiation is supposed to accomplish precisely this (100% conversion of matter to energy). Hence there seems no reason in theory (practice, alas, being very different) why a ship equipped with enough mini black holes could not zip along munching up ordinary matter and using it for energy. Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 28 Aug 1986 14:02:36-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: ALIENS (one more round) Here's some comments on random aspects of ALIENS apropos of a few discussions in SFL. Some are in response to specific postings. Distance/time: Prompted by something someone here at work said, I checked the both the novelization of the original ALIEN and my videotape of same. When trying to locate their position, Lambert stated that they were "just short of Zeta II Reticuli". Now, as previous replies have stated, yes, it's possible that the 10 months also quoted in that film is subjective ship time, and that such a trip could be done in 10 months subjective at *very* near lightspeed, but seeing as Z2R is ~35 light-years away, the objective time at that speed is over 35 years, which does not seem like a reasonable transit time for any commercial purpose (remember, you have to double that for round-trip). Thus, one can reasonably conclude that they have FTL (not to mention that I'd sooner believe that they had some contrived FTL drive than that they could accelerate that close to lightspeed. Dates: I noticed in a later watching of ALIENS that Ripley mentions Burke's transmission to the colony as being dated "six twelve seventy-nine" (in the book, it's different --- "five thirteen seventy-nine"). One can assume that this means June 12 (or May 13), xx79. It can't reasonably be 2079, since that would place the first film as being in 2022, which, barring a few freak technological discoveries, is much too soon for that level of expansion into space. It's also not likely to be *too* far into the future, so 2179 is most likely the setting. > From: stev@BU-CS.BU.EDU >> From: srt@CS.UCLA.EDU >>Yawn. Is this the joke about the universal solvent again? And how >>about the specimen jars in the lab? And you jibe me for being >>science ignorant. > > The acid blood only appeared when the aliens were ruptured, the > ones in the tanks were unharmed. What about the one Bishop was > taking apart? We can assume he was careful to not spill anything > out of the body, or possibly the colonists had found a way to > neutralize the acid (remember, THEY had a full lab, and more time > than the crew did in the first movie.) (1) Bishop mentioned that the acid oxidizes rather quickly, so one assumes that there's no acid in the dead specimen that he examined. (2) In ALIEN, it's obvious that the face-huggers can secrete acid voluntarily (the first one used it to get through Kane's helmet, after all). One can reasonably assume that the liquid in the tanks containing the face-huggers was of a very high pH to neutralize any secreted acid. From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton) > This makes some sense in an interstellar culture which has had to > deal with the concept of non-human intelligence. (There is some > somewhere - somebody built the original derilict in ALIEN. We can > only speculate if humanity has met some others.) It seems clear that humanity *has* met alien races before this. First that the Marines implied that they've had combat with alien life-forms before this ("Is this going to be a stand-up fight or just another bughunt?"). Secondly, during the meal, one of the Marines makes a remark about wanting to get some more "Acturian poontang". One of the other Marines responds with, "But the one you had was male," to which the first replies, "Yeah, but with an Acturian, it doesn't make any difference." Bishop infecting Hicks: From: dartvax!tedi@caip.rutgers.edu (Edward M. Ives) > Even though Sigourney Weaver has said that she won't do a sequel, > you never know; money talks. In which case, here is my stupid > theory on the plot: > > A.) The android took off near the end of ALIENS, only to return just > in the nick of time to pick up Ripley. Most explanations on the net > seem rather contrived. The android said "I had to give > such-and-such (the marine) a shot to knock him out." Sure. No, his excuse for not being there was that the platform was too unstable to support the ship. The remark you quote was made to explain why Hicks was unconscious. Bishop said, "I had to give him *another* shot for the pain." I don't see why that was unreasonable; Hicks *had* been splashed with acid. If he didn't have to *leave* in order to give Hicks the first shot, why would he have needed to leave to give him the second? The excuse wouldn't have washed with Ripley. From: mudie@merlin.Berkeley.EDU (David C Mudie) > On the other hand, remember who was taking care of Hicks in the > Med-lab? The Company scumbag whisked him off as soon as he was > brought in, and it was quite a while until we saw Hicks again -- > with his new bandages. Perhaps Hicks was impregnated then, and > the attack on Ripley and Newt was just Scumbag's attempt to avoid > putting all his eggs in one brisket... uh, basket. Ah, *nobody* "whisked" Hicks off to or "took care of him in" the med-lab. Hicks did not get injured until he and Ripley were on their way to rendezvous with Bishop and the second dropship. By the time Ripley and Hicks got to the ship, there were 26 minutes to detonation; when Ripley armed up and left to get Newt, there were only 19 minutes to go and Hicks was already bandaged up. I'm not convinced that Bishop was a Company rat, for reasons that I explained before. In addition, consider the following: For argument's sake, let's say that, as had been suggested, Bishop had found a way (as a result of his examinations) to safely remove the face-hugger after implantation. How long do you suppose the implantation takes? If it takes only 15 minutes or less (which is all of the time Bishop had to do it), why does the face-hugger hang on for what must be 12-24 hours in ALIEN? Certainly not just because it's having a swell time. Furthermore, where the hell would Bishop have gotten the embryo to implant? There were only two still living face huggers in the med-lab, and both of those were destroyed when they attacked Ripley and Newt. It is doubtful that the dead face-huggers carried living embryos, and it's equally unlikely that the face-huggers carry more than one embryo. There would be no reason for them to die after dropping off the host if they were capable of implanting another embryo in another host. Bishop would've had to either go down to the egg chamber under the fusion plant or the one in the derelict, and there wasn't any opportunity for him to do either. Ripley would have run into him in the first case, and it isn't clear that he knew where the derelict was, or that he could have gotten there, found the egg chamber, gotten Hicks infected, and returned in 15 minutes. Besides, with thermonuclear detonation that close, I doubt that he would've wanted to spare the time to go off to get Hicks infected, just in case Ripley came back in 5 minutes instead of 15. Also, if he was going to do all that, why go back for Ripley at all? It would've been far safer for him and his mission if he infected Hicks and just got the hell out instead of hanging around till literally the last minute to rescue someone who might possibly have discovered his subterfuge. And if he left Ripley and Newt behind, no one would've known, since Hicks was the only other survivor. If Hicks had been infected, he would have been dead too, for all practical purposes. When he revived, and Bishop could easily have seen to it that he didn't, Bishop could've told him that Ripley didn't make it back in time, and that they had to leave in order to warn the folks back home about the seriousness of the problem. That Bishop was double-dealing just doesn't stand up to the light of reason. Which doesn't mean that it *won't* have happened when it comes time to write the sequel. But they'll certainly have to come up with a damn good explanation for how it happened! --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 86 15:01:54 -0500 From: Wes Miller <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA> Subject: ALIENS THEORY There has been a lot of discussion of how the ALIENS learn or how intelligent they are. It appears to me that theories of RNA 'ingestion' are not reasonable explanations due to the fact that if they had acquired the knowledge of their hosts they would have been aware of the fact that the station was going to detonate. From what I see in the movie (since the book doesn't explain too much from the alien perspective) is that they are an imitative species. The Queen uses the elevator because she sees Ripley use it and imitates her actions, even though thi scould have been learned via some of the colonists as well. I don't feel that they are too intelligent because of the part in the book were they first try to penetrate the station to get at our heroes. In the book there are two automatic guns with motion sensors set up to blast the aliens as they move in. In the book they get blasted...and the aliens just keep coming and coming until the guns run out of ammo. This certainly isn't rational behavior. But, then again, the Chinese in the Korean War used human wave tactics too. Also, what about the theory that the aliens are space parasites. For instance, Ripley dumped the queen into space. We know from previous experience that they can survive in space. Who's to say that she can't 'hybernate' until another ship comes into range and then latch on. That could explain the first alien ship. The aliens could use those tubes coming out of their backs as thrusters (who knows what they are anyway?) to move around. And what do these turkeys eat anyway. Maybe they can absorb chemicals from the surrounding atmosphere or use photosysthesis in which case they would have plenty to live on. This would also explain their black color...adapted to their environment. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 86 14:35:21 -0500 From: Wes Miller <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA> Subject: ALIENS I saw ALIEN the first or second day it came out in Boston. There was an additional 5 minutes or so of extra film that was cut out of some of the other versions, including the Laser copy I own. I positively remember that the exploration scenes on the alien ship were much longer and I specifically remember seeing the crew find the beacon. It was located in the wall in the same room where the dead pilot was and was behind a 'glass' case. The beacon looked much like a phonograph and I do recall that the crew shut off the beacon before the incident with the face hugger. Did anyone else recall this version? Or was it another movie? ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 86 12:55:22 GMT From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >Depends on what kind of sources you think are available. If you >rely on the general density of interstellar space, you will need a >very large collection area to pick enough of it up. I suspect that >there may be other bodies between the stars ("Jupiter-like" bodies >-- the results of protostars which were too small for fusion to >ignite). If these are present with sufficient density, there is no >real problem. (I am working on a story based on this idea.) I can barely imagine collecting interstellar hydrogen at .99c. I cannot imagine (and I doubt anyone else can, either) picking up a useful quantity of fuel from a "Jupiter-like body" as you pass it at .99c. >I suspect that 4 L-Y in 10 subjective months is still going to >require enough fuel expenditure to be reserved for emergencies with >very small craft. Not to mention the accelerations involved -- at >least 10 G, I think. (4 L-Y at 1 G takes about 5 years subjective >time.) Right order of magnitude. Traveling 4 LY, starting and ending at rest, with a constant 1 G acceleration, would take 3.46 years (proper time). David desJardins ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Sep 86 0922-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #278 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 8 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 278 Today's Topics: Television - The Invaders & Star Trek & Gigantor (3 msgs) & Time Tunnell & Quark & Ultraman (2 msgs) & I Dream of Jeannie (2 msgs) & Superman & Jonny Quest (2 msgs) & The Champions & SF on TV (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Aug 86 21:46:44 GMT From: minnie!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Grevstad) Subject: Re: Lost in space From: bigbang!bam@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu >Along the same lines did "The Invaders" {A Quinn Martin production} >ever get discovered/killed/deported?? Or is David Jansen still out >there warning people about the dangers of Cerebral Hemorrage?? As has already been pointed out, it was Roy Thinnes and not David Jansen. Jansen was The Fugitive. Chris Grevstad {sdcsvax,hplabs}!sdcrdcf!psivax!nrcvax!chris ihnp4!nrcvax!chris ------------------------------ Date: Wed 27 Aug 86 10:22:26-PDT From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA> Subject: Star Trek videos For those that are interested, another set of ST TV show videos will be coming out in October. Among those released will be _Tribbles_, Gamesters of Triskelion_, _Piece of the Action_, and "Space Nazis". Additionally, _The Cage_ will be released, and from the early promo tape that I viewed this will be in combined b&w and color with narration/explanation by Gene Roddenberry. ------------------------------ Date: Fri 29 Aug 86 11:10:10-PDT From: Jackie <Burhans@USC-ECLB.ARPA> Subject: GIGANTOR I remember GIGANTOR. I was about 9 years old (that's 16 years ago). But I don't remember much. Just a few of the words to the theme song: GIGANTOR! GIGAAANTOR! Gigantor the space-age robot He's at your command Gigantor the space-age robot His power is in your hand Bigger than big, Stronger than strong Ready to fight for right Against wrong! Yes, well. Powerful philosophy for a 9-year old. I watched it here in the L.A. area on Channel 52 along with Speed Racer and Kimba the White Lion. Although those are not SF cartoons, can anyone tell me, are those also japanese animation? ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 86 19:49:18 GMT From: csustan!smdev@caip.rutgers.edu (Scott Hazen Mueller) Subject: Re: GIGANTOR BURHANS@USC-ECLB.ARPA writes: >[...] I watched it here in the L.A. area on Channel 52 along with >Speed Racer > and Kimba the White Lion. Although those are not SF cartoons, can >anyone tell me, are those also japanese animation? I can't give a definitive answer, since I'm a snob when it comes to cartoon animation (if it was made for television, it stinks :-)). However, as I recall, shows that I have _known_ to be japanese in origin tend to have characters with very large, round eyes. I tend to take this to be a characteristic of japanese animation...and, as far as I can remember, Speed Racer (and the other characters in that show) had very large, round eyes. I tend to wonder if these eyes have anything to do with the racial differences in eye shape? Scott Hazen Mueller City of Turlock 901 South Walnut Avenue Turlock, CA 95380 lll-crg.arpa!csustan!smdev work: (209) 668-5590 -or- 5628 home: (209) 527-1203 ------------------------------ Date: 3 Sep 86 03:23:55 GMT From: bnrmtv!zarifes@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes) Subject: Re: GIGANTOR > I can't give a definitive answer, since I'm a snob when it comes > to cartoon animation (if it was made for television, it stinks > :-)). However, as I recall, shows that I have _known_ to be > japanese in origin tend to have characters with very large, round > eyes. I tend to take this to be a characteristic of japanese > animation...and, as far as I can remember, Speed Racer (and the > other characters in that show) had very large, round eyes. > > I tend to wonder if these eyes have anything to do with the racial > differences in eye shape? The original influential Japanese animator was Tezuka. Tezuka was highly influenced by (you guessed it) Disney. Since all of Disney's characters had huge eyes, Tezuka followed suit and the style still remains. However, there are also plenty of Japanese animated films that have characters with normal sized eyes. It's amazing how many people are freaked out by the large eyes in Japanese animation. It's a running joke at alot of C/FO meetings. People come up with alot of weird reasons for it. Ken Zarifes {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 86 20:04:41 GMT From: hoqam!bicker@caip.rutgers.edu (KOHN) Subject: Re: SF on TV Haven't you all forgotten TIME TUNNEL?????? This starred James Darren, I think. Scientists have constructed a time tunnel, but have been informed that funding has been cut off before they have a chance to test it. One junior technician makes an unauthorized trip back to the Titanic... The only episode I missed (or so I think) was the one in which the time travellers go back in time to the actual location of the time tunnel, several years earlier. Does anyone know what happened? (I've been wondering this for about 14 years.) ------------------------------ Date: 30 Aug 86 06:47:05 GMT From: unc!melnick@caip.rutgers.edu (Alex Melnick) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone) writes: >Quark was a classic wasn't it. It starred Richard Benjamen as Capt >Quark. I think it was one for more then one season, becuase I can >remember 2 almost entirely different casts. But, the only thing I >remember now is a pair a clones or androids. Quark was on for only four episodes, and I will eternally regret having missed one of them. The show was too full of inside jokes to last. Capt. Quark and his crew manned an interstellar garbage scow. His first mate was a vegetable named Ficus Fecunderata. He had two identical twin officers (I think they were clones), plus I think one more person on board. One episode was a direct parody of the "Mirror, Mirror" episode of Star Trek; another had Quark engaging in heroics, guided by The Farce (sic), played by the voice of Hans Conreid (a la Obiwan's voice in the later Star Wars movies). The show also featured Conrad Jannis (sp?), later Mindy's father (as in Mork and), as Quark's boss. If anyone has tapes of any of the episodes, I would dearly love to see them again. Alex ...!mcnc!unc!melnick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 86 12:45:26 EDT From: Jeremy Bornstein Subject: Re: SF-TV shows Has everyone forgotten "Ultraman"? Actually, I almost have. What I remember about it is that it involved someone who could become a giant (with some other special powers which I don't remember) with the aid of a small metallic device. He fought other Japanese actors (who almost always wore lizard suits) while stomping on miniature models of Tokyo. Does anyone remember more? Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: 3 Sep 86 04:45:49 GMT From: cc-30@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse) Subject: Re: SF-TV shows (Ultraman) Boy, that brings back memories, Ultraman came to Earth while chasing an intergalactic monster. He accidently kills a human, but in his compassion shares his life with the human. To become Ultraman, he must raise the Beta Capsule (the small metallic device). Ultraman also had to win quickly, otherwise the little light on his chest would start blinking, telling him that the Earth's sun was starting to drain his energy. If the light stopped blinking, Ultraman would die. I also remember his ray that he fired by crossing his arms in front of his face. Anybody else want to add more... Sean Rouse ARPA: cc-30@cory.berkeley.edu UUCP: ucbvax!cory!cc-30 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Sep 86 13:51 CET From: <PSST001%DTUZDV1.BitNet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> Subject: SF on TV Who played the Jeannie in 'I dream of Jeannie' ? (NOT Joan Collins or someone the like, please) Michael Maisack ------------------------------ Date: 3 Sep 86 00:31:29 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: SF on TV Barbara Eden played Jeannie. I think she was also in the George Pal version of _The Seven Faces of Doctor Lao_. I can't think of anything else related to SF that she's been in at the moment. david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Sep 86 13:50:05 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: SUPERMAN the TV series Brown students claim that the Industrial National Bank (now Fleet N.B.) building is either the DAILY PLANET or the tall building he leaps over in a single bound. Does anyone out there know of any way I can check this? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 86 09:34 PDT From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Johnny Quest The new Johnny Quest comic's second issue deals with the introduction of Race Bannon and the death of Mrs. Quest (all in one story). It was very touching and almost made me cry :-( sniff. But seriously, my favorite episode was not the giant spider, but the old Nazi with the pteradactil and the biplane. I will forever remember (and laugh with my brother when we repeat it as an in joke) him yelling, "Ze Diamonds! Ze Diamonds!" while throwing those old grenades from the plane. We also discovered the JQ law of falling to your death, which has been transformed into a replacement for "Geronimo" when jumping. Always yell, "Ieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee..." It must be drawn out until you hit. It was so predictable it was hilarious! I also had (I wish I still did) a record with Johnny Quest, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea! Talk about a rip off! They went straight down that far in their bathosphere and were attacked by a giant squid (probably the same one that almost ate Opus). They electrified the bathosphere and returned to the surface unharmed (in case any of you were getting worried). The most important thing about this record is that it made me read Jules Verne, and my addiction to SF got started. Jon Pugh ------------------------------ Date: 3 Sep 86 17:29:00 GMT From: c160-dq@zooey.Berkeley.EDU (Kathy Li) Subject: Jonny Quest I don't know if anybody's posted about this, but there was an article on net.comics saying that Hanna-Barbara is going to be putting out a new Johnny Quest series. Actually, it's the old series (uncut, all the original episodes, supposedly) plus some new material. Something about a girl who's a new member and looks like Cyndi Lauper or somesuch. There was also an article about the Johnny Quest news conference that Comico held at the San Diego Comic Con (Doug Wildey was on it) telling all about the new comic book series (excellent!) and some old nostalgia bits about the series. (like how Bandit was created). Anyways, just thought someone might like to know. Kathy Li ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Sep 86 21:32:49 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: SF-TV programs >The Champions, a British SF. They had super strength and a sort of >telepathy and precognition. I think it only lasted one season. >The show started with a shot of this huge fountain. Why, I don't >know. They could also run at a pretty fair clip, if I recall aright. I seem to recall the complement being: one British man, one British woman, and one American man. Weren't there also other series that had the formula of international and gender mixes? They all worked for some organisation in Geneva -- lots of international organisations are based in Geneva, in theory at least, and perhaps in fact -- so the opening shots showed the great fountain on Lake Geneva which has become rather a trademark for the city. Now, for a blind guess: did Annette Andre play the woman? She got all kinds of bit parts in those days -- Randall's secretary and Hopkirk's widow in "Randall and Hopkirk (Deceased)", this or that incidental character in "The Saint", and I seem to recall her turning up elsewhere. I never actually liked her very much: she always seemed rather a weak character, and in those days she had Mrs. Peel of "The Avengers" to compete with, which made her look weaker yet. (Of course, it may be argued that very few female parts did -- and do -- not look weak compared to Mrs. Peel.) Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 86 04:12:44 GMT From: nbc1!abs@caip.rutgers.edu (Andrew Siegel) Subject: SF on TV: Astroboy, Prince Planet, and Eighth Man No one's mention one of my favorite early Japanese cartoons: Eighth Man. Eighth Man had been a reporter who was run down by a car one night, and picked up, half-dead, by a scientist who used his body to create a super robot; his eighth creation, thus the name "Eighth Man". He had a large figure "8" on his chest, and could change his appearance at will. His secret identity was as "Tobor" ("Robot" spelled backwards). The theme song went like this: EIGHTH MAN A prehistoric monster, It came from outer space, created by the martians to destroy the human race. The FBI is helpless, it's 20-stories tall, what can we do - who can we call? Call Tobor, the Eighth Man! Call Tobor, the Eighth Man! Faster than a rocket, quicker than a jet, He's the mighty robot, he's the one to get! Call Tobor, the Eighth Man! Quick, call Tobor, the mightiest robot of them all! (Last stanza is probably incomplete.) Another cartoon that was discussed on the net a few years ago was "Prince Planet". Here's an approximation of the theme song: PRINCE PLANET (thanks to Lauren Weinstein) (Many children singing) Priiiiiiiince Planet! Oh the things he'll do, Will astonish you, Prince Planet, he's the best! Like a meteor, With a dinosaur, Or a damsel in distress! Oh it's no surprise, That he hates bad guys, And he makes the bad guys pay. Here comes Prince Planet! Priiiiiiiince Planet! No one can compare, To the prince who wears, The medallion on his chest. Like a streak of light, Changing wrong to right, Prince Planet's on his way! Here comes Prince Planet! Priiiiiiiince Planet! (Male narrator speaks) The inhabitants of the planet Radion have been observing the Earth, and have decided to help its inhabitants fight against evil. So, they have sent to Earth Prince Planet, to fight against evil wherever he finds it. And finally, can *anyone* tell me the words to the "Astroboy" theme? I think that there were two different songs: one sung at the beginning, and the other at the end of the show. I can remember the music very clearly; the words not at all (except for the closing line "Go, go, go, Astroboy!"). Andrew Siegel, N2CN philabs!nbc1!abs NBC Computer Imaging, New York, NY (212)664-5776 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 86 16:50:25 EDT From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@labs-b.bbn.com> Subject: SF TV shows >Finally, I recall the title music to an SF show, but I'm pretty >sure I never watched it. The opening was animated, and there was a >gorilla or monkey in it somehow. The first bit of the opening is: > > It's about time > It's about space > It's about men from the human race The lyrics are from the title tune for IT'S ABOUT TIME, but my own dim recollection is that the third line is It's about two men in the craziest place. THE SIXTH SENSE starred Gary Collins, not David Hartman (interesting idea, though). Incidentally, when this show was syndicated, as part of a package deal with episodes of NIGHT GALLERY, the episodes where edited down from 60 minutes to 30 minutes! I certainly remember ASTRO BOY. It was my favorite show when I was a kid, and I've enjoyed it again when I've had an opportunity to see episodes since I became an adult. If BUCKAROO BANZAI can be a version of Doc Savage, why can't JONNY QUEST be inspired by Rick Brant. (I thought Jonny was the cutest when I was his age and the show was in first run.) Kathy Godfrey ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Sep 86 1004-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #279 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 8 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 279 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Cherryh & Ellison (4 msgs) & Finney (3 msgs) & Koontz & Plauger & Stasheff & Rare Book Auction, Magazines - Small Press (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Aug 86 13:58:30 GMT From: jsm@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Jonathan Meltzer) Subject: Re: R. Daneel Olivaw melnick@unc.UUCP (Alex Melnick) writes: >ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes: >>I think that R. Daneel was the one who removed all references to >>EARTH from the Galactic Library on Trantor. Anybody agree? > >No, no, no. Go back and re-read *The Robots of Dawn* (or whatever >it's called) again. It's R. Giskard (the supposedly inferior robot >who can read minds and has the capability of independant >action/thought) who is plotting to guide the future of mankind, not >R. Daneel, who is really not an unusually impressive robot, aside >from his physical appearance. No, no, no. Read *Robots and Empire*. Giskard dies at the end and transfers his psychic powers to Daneel. Jon Meltzer Dept. of Modern Languages and Linguistics, Cornell University ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 86 15:42:50 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: C.J. Cherryh From: mic!d25001 (Carrington Dixon) >> P.P.S. Why does C.J.Cherry add an `h' to her name when she >> writes books? > > I have heard that she picked that by-line because there was an > established mundane writer already using her real name, Carolyn > Cherry. No, it was done simply because her publisher, Don Wollheim thought that it looked more exotic with the terminal "h". > ...I suspect that the initials are used for the same reason that > many another female writer of sf adventures has disguised her > first name -- too many people are afraid that teenage boys won't > buy anything written by a woman. Nonsense. That may well have been the reason that C.L. Moore hid her first name or Andre Norton changed hers, but by the mid-70's, publishers were not being that silly, especially Wollheim, one of whose best-selling author at that point was the very feminine-named Marion Zimmer Bradley. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 3 Sep 86 10:07:48 GMT From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: Harlan the Mouth I can't believe all these attacks on Ellison's non-fiction! I have only read one essay of his that I didn't like, a silly piece on video games. His F&SF column is usually good, though I don't share his respect for Herbert, and his non-fiction books are excellent. I refer in particular to "The Glass Teat", "The Other Glass Teat", and "Sleepless Nights in the Procrustean Bed". His insight is penetrating, and his conveyance of that insight to the reader is damn near flawless. To those who have been ragging on Harlan's non-fiction, I would ask what hard-edged or satirical writing they do like. Calvin Trillin? Mark Twain? Ambrose Bierce? Or do they just disapprove of this sort of writing? Tim Maroney, Electronic Village Idiot {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 86 16:27:02 GMT From: calmasd.CALMA!gail@caip.rutgers.edu (Gail Hanrahan) Subject: Re: Harlan the Mouth In addition to the books Tim Maroney mentioned (The Glass Teat, The Other Glass Teat, and Sleepless Nights in the Procrustean Bed): An Edge in My Voice, a collection of Ellison's columns from the LA Free Press (if I remember this right), is also excellent. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 86 13:44:39 GMT From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Harlan the Mouth tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >I can't believe all these attacks on Ellison's non-fiction! I have >only read one essay of his that I didn't like, a silly piece on >video games. His F&SF column is usually good, I find Ellison's F&SF column totally self-indulgent and lacking in content. For example, he took about three columns recently to "discuss" the movie about young Sherlock Holmes (can't remember the title). Take a look at those columns; look for the content; WHAT THE H_LL IS HE SAYING? He's got little anecdotes about his personal experiences, a lot of excess verbiage, and a little meat about the topic he's dealing with. The man likes the sound of his own voice. I resent subscribing to a magazine for many years and then having garbage like this foisted off on me as a movie review. "Installment No. 225 In Which Your Dear Author Enjoys Listening To Himself Babble On Again," indeed. Feh. The man's PRETENTIOUS. The only thing worse about F&SF's nonfiction is Asimov's column. He and Ellison share a propensity for boring personal anecdotes (who CARES about details of the Good Doctor's life? I sure don't), and Asimov is pompous as all get out. A very recent column (last month's or this) started out with a lengthy diatribe against an "English major" who wrote Asimov a letter. A grown man who feels the need to put down a 19-year-old in this way and who has such obvious contempt for liberal arts majors (read the column) is not my idea of a good companion. And that's what I expect when I read a non-fiction column in a magazine like F&SF: the voice of a good companion for a half hour or an hour, someone whose company I enjoy. Certainly not someone who comes across as a pompous _ss like Ellison or Asimov. >and his non-fiction books are excellent. I refer in particular to >"The Glass Teat", "The Other Glass Teat", and "Sleepless Nights in >the Procrustean Bed". His insight is penetrating, and his >conveyance of that insight to the reader is damn near flawless. Sorry, I fail to share your enjoyment of "The Glass Teat" and "Sleepless Nights..." Chacun a son gout, I suppose. >To those who have been ragging on Harlan's non-fiction, I would ask >what hard-edged or satirical writing they do like. Calvin Trillin? >Mark Twain? Ambrose Bierce? Or do they just disapprove of this >sort of writing? I love all three. I simply think Ellison projects an Attitude in his non-fiction, an Attitude I don't particularly care for. Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 86 21:19:30 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Harlan the Mouth tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes: > I refer in particular to "The Glass Teat", "The Other Glass Teat", > and "Sleepless Nights in the Procrustean Bed". His insight is > penetrating, and his conveyance of that insight to the reader is > damn near flawless. Well, I didn't read about nocturnal insomniacs being forced into arbitrary patterns, but I did read his collections named for a fused silicate nipple of a televisual mammary. Far from "insightful" and "penetrating", I found him rather sophomoric, egotistical, elitist, simplistic, overbearing, bombastic, and (perhaps worst) repetitious. He seems to try to project a more-erudite-than-thou snobbery while at the same time affecting a more-earthy-than-thou pop-culture veneer. But (in my humble opinion) he sure can write fiction. > To those who have been ragging on Harlan's non-fiction, I would > ask what hard-edged or satirical writing they do like. Calvin > Trillin? Mark Twain? Ambrose Bierce? Twain, mainly. The plane of Twain is mainly in the brain. As opposed to being mostly emotional tantrums, I mean. ( I am, perhaps, being over-harsh on Ellison in this posting. So, assume I mean a half-a-smiley or so along with the above. ) Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 86 21:44:00 GMT From: hp-pcd!everett@caip.rutgers.edu (everett) Subject: Time And Again: author? I seem to remember reading a book by Clifford Simak called "Time And Again". (It was an excellent time-travel story, as I remember, but then that was about 20 years ago.) Maybe Richard Matheson also used that title. Everett Kaser Hewlett-Packard Co. Corvallis, OR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Aug 86 02:52:01 EDT From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU> Subject: Millenium, Time and Again To: hjuxa!jjf@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU From: hjuxa!jjf@caip.rutgers.edu (FRANEY) >Last night, I started reading a book by John Varley called >'Millenium' ... In the first chapters, the group is busy trying to >save the passengers and crew of a doomed airplane of 1955, when ... >Things start going wrong. In trying to solve these problems, a >great deal of energy is spent, which made me wonder why the group >didn't abort its mission and try again at its leisure. The reason >is that when the rescue team returns to the airplane to retry, they >will merely get in their own way, since the first effort exists in >the airplane at the time before the crash already. The book makes it clear that one cannot travel to (or view) a time that anyone has travelled to before, or that anyone will travel to in the future (if that makes any sense). >[This bring to mind a book by I. M. Notsurewho called 'Time and >Again' which held the theory that to travel through time, you must >convice yourself, your brain, that you already are then. The only >thing that keeps an individual in the present is the temporal >strings attached to his psyche (ie. images of contemporary >telephones).] It is by Jack Finney. A secret government project to send people into the past using suggestion and hypnosis. Much of the action takes place in New York City in the 1880s, which Finney tries to convince the reader was almost utopian. Keith ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 6 Sep 1986 08:32:32-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: TIME AND AGAIN > From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM (Marina Fournier) > ...but the author [of TIME AND AGAIN] is Richard Matheson. No, TIME AND AGAIN was written by Jack Finney. Richard Matheson later wrote a different book on the same idea called BID TIME RETURN, also known as (because of the film) SOMEWHERE IN TIME. To answer another point that was brought up, Clifford Simak also had written (20 years previously) a novel titled TIME AND AGAIN, but there's no connection other than the title. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 6 Sep 1986 09:29:31-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Dean Koontz From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA> > Speaking of Koontz, the "Also by" page (is there a better or > "official" name for this page in a book [the one before the title > page where they list other books by the same author]?) lists the > following titles: DARKFALL, PHANTOMS, WHISPERS, THE VISION, and > NIGHT CHILLS. None of these ring a bell with me, and none sound > like SF -- has Koontz moved away from SF to "horror/thrillers" > instead? Anyone have anything to say about these other books, or > other things by Koontz? Yes, Koontz has pretty much stopped writing sf, turning to horror for the last five years or so. Apparently, he's much better at horror than he is at sf, but I haven't read any of his horror novels (the only sf novel of his I liked was BEASTCHILD, which wasn't nearly as good as the shorter version that appeared in one of the sf magazines, VENTURE). A relevant anecdote: Last year, there was a rumor floating around that a Laser Book, INVASION by "Aaron Wolfe", was actually pseudonymously written by Stephen King, and some book dealers were even selling copies for big bucks under that assumption. One dealer who knew better, Bob Weinberg, offered one autographed copy each to the first five people who could identify the true author. His clue was "It's a famous horror author whose last name begins with 'K'." The true answer was, of course, Dean Koontz. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 30 Aug 86 04:54:49 GMT From: wolf!rgale@caip.rutgers.edu (Ryan Gale) Subject: Re: P.J. Plauger From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU > I picked up a used copy of The 1976 World's Best SF (edited by > D.A.Wollheim) and found it has a story by P.J. Plauger, "Child of > all Ages". I believe this is the same P.J. Plauger that cs people > know as the author of The Elements of Programming Style, etc. Yup, same guy. The only other story of his that I know of is "Virtual Image" which can be found in _New Voices III_, edited by George R R Martin. Plauger said in an interview that he didn't plan on writing any more fiction because life was short and there were too many programs that he wanted to write. A pity -- he's good. Ryan Gale ...!sdcsvax!wolf!rgale ------------------------------ Date: 30 Aug 86 23:08:19 GMT From: osu-eddie!jac@caip.rutgers.edu (James Clausing) Subject: _The Warlock is Missing_ Just picked it up today. For those of you who have enjoyed the Warlock series, this one starts out (and looks like it will be mostly) about the kids. I've only read about 20 pages (while doing laundry) will post a review when I finish. Jim Clausing CIS Department Ohio State University Columbus, OH 43210 jac@ohio-state.CSNET jac@ohio-state.ARPA jac@osu-eddie.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: Wed 27 Aug 86 15:51:26-PDT From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@Sierra.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Auction of Rare Books Barry R. Levin is reentering the science fiction rare book business with an auction at: California Book Auction Galleries, Inc. 358 Golden Gate Ave San Francisco, CA 94102 on September 28 (Sunday) at 12 noon September 29 (Monday) at 12 noon This auction will include such rarities as: Asimov: The Robots of Dawn (leather) and the Foundation Series (4 vols) Bradbury: Fahrenheit 451 (limited, bound in asbestos boards) King: Firestarter (lettered, bound in asbestos boards ) Niven: The Ringworld Engineers (lettered, bound in leather) Proofs of: Asimov: Foundation's Edge (3 states) Clarke: 2010 (3 states) McCaffrey: White Dragon Tolkein: The Fellowship of the Ring (advanced proof with earliest state of proof map laid in) Vinge: Snow Queen and other much wonderful stuff. It is possible to buy from the auction by mail, I have done so before. Illustrated Catalog by mail from above. My only connection is as a satisfied customer Randy Neff ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 86 18:29:02 EDT From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: small press I have discovered "small press" magazines. I am looking for any recommendations on SF/FANTASY/HORROW related small press magazines. Please post ordering info as well as the titles. Thank you, Stephen Pearl (Pearl@Blue.Rutgers.Edu) ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 86 06:38:00 GMT From: jimb@ism780 Subject: Re: small press Two small press fantasy magazines: FANTASY BOOK (generally regarded as one of the top semi-pro zines) Dept. S PO Box 60126 Pasadena, CA 91106 8-1/2 by 11, color cover, b/w inside art, all kinds of fantasy, plus comic. Quarterly. PANDORA c/o Empire Books P.O. Box 625 Murray, KY 42071 8-1/2 by 11, b/w cover art on colored stock, b/w inside art. semi-annual New Wave SF magazine: LAST WAVE P.O. Box 3022 Saxonville Station Framingham, MA 01701 5 by 8, photo-style cover, no inside art, avant garde stories published semi-whenever UCBVAX/HPLABS/HAO/ICO/ISM780 SDCSVAX/SDCRDCF/ISM780C ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Sep 86 1026-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #280 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 8 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 280 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Time Travel (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Aug 86 02:46:23 GMT From: ism780c!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Smith) Subject: Re: Time TRAVEL - An Insane Approach to Time Travel jhardest@wheeler-emh writes: >I really could not work any wonders .. one I don't have a power >source for my computer ; two , I would not be able to communicate >to anyone.. since they believe I am the DEVIL or one of his daemons >(snicker) There was an SF story in OMNI ( I think ) several years ago about a scientist who goes back and tries to give Isaac Newton a calculator. Anyone remember the title and author ( or which issue it was in? ). Tim Smith USENET: sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim || ima!ism780!tim Compuserve: 72257,3706 Delphi or GEnie: mnementh ------------------------------ Date: Fri 29 Aug 86 12:29:20-EDT From: Rob(s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet) Subject: backwards time travel I've been away for awhile, so this may seem like old news. But around the beginning of August there was a discussion on the Net about backwards time travel and the confusion it could cause. Someone mentioned the part in Hitchiker's Guide where a cereal company sued Encyclopedia Galactica. It seems, then, that there was a lot of time-based confusion in the Guide, especially on the part of Zaphod Beeblebrox the First (or Nothingth). Anyone else remember the seance aboard Heart of Gold? He invokes the ghost of his Great-grandfather, Zaphod Beeblebrox the Fourth. The mixup in numbers is due to an accident with a contraceptive and a time machine. Talk about confused! Rob Freundlich ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 29 Aug 1986 12:21:01-PDT From: todd%sarah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Time travel It's perhaps too easy to forget that conservation "laws", like other natural "laws", are simply a statement of our best understanding of behavior in a specific context, rather than abstract truths. There used to be conservation "laws" for both mass and energy; when it became known that they were inter-convertible, the laws were merged into a single one. Rather than a change in the "law", time travel issues might instead simply change the context in which the existing "law" applies. For example, the current mass/energy conservation "law" pretty obviously applies only to a closed system (itself an abstraction with no guaranteed counterpart in reality...). Now, if one admits the possibility of discontinuous temporal displacement, no system, no matter how space- encompassing, can be considered "closed" without also encompassing its past and future time extents (to or from which mass/energy displacement could occur) - and once the time extent IS included, mass/energy within the resulting enlarged context remains a conserved quantity. Such a view certainly appeals to my own sense of natural order more than creation of mysterious "balancing" mass/energy transfers that preserve mass/energy at each instant: after all, is there ANY reason to believe that such a stricter law DOES in fact apply without experimental evidence (which would necessarily be based upon an observed discontinuous displacement)? Not having studied physics for around twenty years, I'm likely treading upon very thin ice in suggesting that at the quantum level, at least, there may already be support for a looser interpretation - if not for discontinuous displacement, then at least for continuous retrograde displacement (videlicet time symmetries for electrons/positrons as a single particle with two opposing temporal vectors). Relativistic (special or general) time dilation might also have insights to offer. With such wider contexts, questions like "Where did the gun come from, and where did it go?" go the way of all paradoxes: they cease to be problems when our viewpoint matures to understand the situation. We are no more disturbed by the circular nature of its temporal movement than we would be if it were moving in a spatially circular motion on a turntable: that it "doesn't exist" outside that circle is simply not an issue. There are, admittedly, related philosophical issues (it's not at all clear that such physics allows "free will" - but then it's not at all clear that CURRENT physics does either). As has been mentioned, Heinlein has explored them rather thoroughly and well. Bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon 1 Sep 86 14:48:47-EDT From: Rob(s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet) Subject: re:sending devices from the future into the past >a AWACS for the Americans at Pearl Harbor, or the Nimitz (ha ha) I assume you have heard of _The Final Countdown_, in which the Nimitz goes back but can't save Pearl Harbor. If not, find it. It's one of those movies that stuck with me for a long time after seeing it. But an AWACS?!?!? Yes, it would have told them the Japanese were coming, but all evidence I've seen or heard of says that we knew of the impending attack and did nothing to prepare Pearl Harbor. Is this true or am I having delusions (again) ? Rob ------------------------------ Date: Mon 1 Sep 86 15:12:18-EDT From: Rob(s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet) Subject: insanely contemplating time travel >... a paradox resolved is a paradox created. Resolving the second >generates the first. And creates a new paradox, which must be solved in a third way. This is the premise of _Thrice Upon a Time_, by James P. Hogan. It is one of the best time-travel novels I have ever read. Hogan ends up proposing several different diagrams of the space-time universe, all of which seem valid and support whatever theory the characters are expounding at the time. An amazing book. Has anyone who's read it noticed a similarity between this and George Benson's "Cambridge, 1:07 AM" (I think that's the title...) ? ------------------------------ Date: 2 Sep 86 10:31:33 GMT From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: sending devices from the future into the past S.R-FREUNDLICH@KLA.WESLYN writes: >But an AWACS?!?!? Yes, it would have told them the Japanese were >coming, but all evidence I've seen or heard of says that we knew of >the impending attack and did nothing to prepare Pearl Harbor. Certainly the imminent possibility of war with Japan was well-known. Probably the military leaders of the time were aware of the possibility of a surprise attack, but if so they vastly underestimated the vulnerability of the American fleet to such an attack. Possibly (I don't believe it, but some serious historians do) the political leadership suspected (at most a day or so in advance) that Japan was about to declare war. Almost certainly the political leadership did not know that a Japanese fleet was actually en route to attack Pearl Harbor. (I rate this as about as likely as that KAL 007 was not a spy plane, but Reagan still knew that it was off course over sensitive Russian airspace, and did nothing. This would require a similar chain of events.) It is absolutely certain that the commanders of the air and naval forces in Hawaii did not know either that war was imminent or that Japanese forces were sailing toward Pearl Harbor, until the moment of the attack; they certainly could have used the Awacs. David desJardins ------------------------------ Date: 3 Sep 86 15:32:27 GMT From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Time travel todd%sarah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM writes: >With such wider contexts, questions like "Where did the gun come >from, and where did it go?" go the way of all paradoxes: they cease >to be problems when our viewpoint matures to understand the >situation. While I agree with everything else you've said, I justt realized a problem with the gun deal: Considering that the gun is used once every (day? I forget the original posting.), that gun gets a LOT of use. What happens when, once thru the loop, it jams? The murderer better go out and look for an all-night gun shop, FAST! ;-) kaufman@orion.arpa kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 86 14:42:03 CDT From: Rich Zellich <zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA> To: jhardest@WHEELER-EMH.ARPA Subject: Re: Time Travel or If only they had > Claymore mines at the Battle of the Alamo for the Texans of > course. Read the recently-out "Remember the Alamo!" by Kevin Randle and Bob Cornett. They did it [and it...naw, that would be a spoiler :-)]. Enjoy, Rich ------------------------------ Date: 24 Aug 86 22:00:56 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: The "Gold Coin Paradox" jjf@hjuxa.UUCP (FRANEY) writes: > But now I'm confused, with regards to the two gold coins > sitting on the table for an hour. Whether we remember one or two > coins on the table, the fact is that there are now two coins on > the table. When we send the coin back, we receive a coin's worth > of matter/energy and the matter/energy conservation law is > maintained. The end of the hour comes along. The moment that we > sent the coin back is at hand. I'll call this moment Instant A. > Before Instant A and because we sent the coin back, there are two > coins on the table. At Instant A, we make a matter/energy > exchange, all systems go. After Instant A, the two coins are now > one, having sent the original back. After Instant A, there is a > coin's worth of matter/energy imbalance in the equation. It turns > out that Universe(10:00) < Universe(10:01). How can the existence > of the coin on the table be justified after instant A? Certainly there is a gold coin's worth of energy in the equation; and the most likely form of that energy will be electromagnetic radiation and heat. As a result, the test station will burn to the ground after a bright flash of light and a thunderclap from suddenly-expanding hot air when the coin is sent back in time. If you assume that entropy holds (questionable, given that entropy is time-based; however, we're talking about the ``now'' when you send the gold coin back in time, so it may hold anyway), you have to put in more energy than you get out. So it would take the whole output of a nuclear power plant (say) to send the coin back in time, and you end up with somewhat less energy being released by the exchange. Doesn't sound too useful. Or too safe, for that matter. Your time-travel booth would have to be out in the badlands and would be one-shot. As for the above: U(10:00) has two gold coins, one lifted from U(9:00), which transported an equivalent amout of energy to U(10:01). At U(10:01) you have one coin and a coin's worth of heat and radiation. Where is the problem (besides getting fried in two different ways at U(10:01))? Brandon S. Allbery Tridelta Industries, Inc. 7350 Corporate Blvd. Mentor, Ohio 44060 UUCP: decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!tdi2!brandon ARPA: ncoast!allbery%case.CSNET@csnet-relay PHONE: +1 216 974 9210 HOME: (216) 781-6201 24 hrs. 6615 Center St. Apt. A1-105 Mentor, Ohio 44060-4101 ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 86 21:05:26 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Time travel > todd%sarah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM ( - Bill) > once the time extent IS included, mass/energy within the resulting > enlarged context remains a conserved quantity. > > there may already be support for a looser interpretation - if not > for discontinuous displacement, then at least for continuous > retrograde displacement (videlicet time symmetries for > electrons/positrons as a single particle with two opposing > temporal vectors). But note... when such a particle changes timewise direction pastward, energy is released, and when direction is changed futureward, energy is consumed. Thus, in any timelike slice of the universe, energy is conserved, not just for space-time as a whole. So Feynman diagrams aren't support for the notion of mass-energy conservation only applying to space-time instead of space. (Not that this notion is ruled out, mind you... just that this view of antimatter isn't support for it.) > We are no more disturbed by the circular nature of its temporal > movement than we would be if it were moving in a spatially > circular motion on a turntable But this doesn't address the *major* difference between the cases brought up, in particular that one is a spiral in space-time, and the other is a closed loop. Granted, taking a coin and sending it into the past multiple times is an analogy for a point on the rim of a turntable. The point goes past a given spot in space N times, and the coin goes past a given spot in time... er... well... "N spaces", right? (In any event, at a given point in time you see N coins). But neither of these involve a closed loop. There is no space-like analogy for such a closed loop, unless there are other time-like meta-dimensions as implied in many time-traveling stories, such as in Asimov's _The_End_of_Eternity_ and others. > (it's not at all clear that such physics allows "free will" - but > then it's not at all clear that CURRENT physics does either). One notion that is used to elaborate the notion of time-travel in a few cases is "observer created reality". That is, the future (and perhaps even the past) is not only unknown, but *doesn't* *exist* until it is "traveled to" or observed. Then it is fixed. This is in analogy to the way a particle in QM doesn't *have* (say) a position until the position is measured. The act of *observing* the future (or traveling there) *creates* it, and once created, it is immutable. The more folks travel around in time, then, the less "free will" for everybody. Not that this notion makes much more sense than many others regarding time travel... but interesting nevertheless, I suppose. And these two points are the major factors in my perception of time travel stories in sf. Most of these don't make much sense, often very little indeed. But there is something primally interesting about the notion of time travel, so on this account we are continually inundated with ill-thought-out scenarios. Sigh. Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Sep 86 16:40:55 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Time Travel In Vonda McIntyre's book THE ENTROPY EFFECT, a scientist sends some friends of his back in time, to times that they consider "Utopian." This creates a naked singularity, which begins destroying the universe. The scientist tries to come back to stop himself, but he causes so many different time branches to split off that at one point, he must try to stop himself from becoming a murderer. Another time, when he comes back to try to stop himself, he sees one of his friends kill another version of himself, who had also gone back in time. I recommend this book, if you think you can keep up with all the different tracks (Definitely not as bad as Heinlein, though...) st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Sep 86 1101-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #281 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 8 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 281 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Aug 86 13:11:53 GMT From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) I [desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins)] wrote: > Another calculation: with a 100% efficient rocket drive (e.g. >matter to energy conversion powering a laser pointed out the back) >the constant-acceleration 4-LY 10-month one-way trip would require >a fuel to payload ratio of more than 35:1. This really is the >absolute, theoretical limit for a ship powered by onboard fuel. Let me clarify this statement. 35:1 is the absolute limit here. That is, I am saying that it is impossible for a rocket powered by onboard fuel to make this trip, unless it starts with a 35:1 ratio of fuel to payload. franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >First of all, this is in no way an absolute, theoretical limit; >merely a practical constraint which could be violated if rapid >transmission of the payload were sufficiently valuable. There *is* an absolute limit here. It is *theoretically impossible* for a rocket to exceed this limit; i.e. to make this trip with less than a 35:1 fuel-to-payload ratio. That is all I have said. franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >I suspect you were incorrectly assuming a constant mass for the >vessel, including fuel, for the entire voyage. This is not >correct; as you expend fuel, you no longer have to carry it. Yes, I am not stupid. I did do the calculation correctly. >I did the calculations for this a couple of years ago. It turns >out that for trips at a fixed acceleration, the ratio of total >inital mass of the ship including fuel to the delivered mass grows >exponentially. The practical constraints are quite real, but there >is no "theoretical limit" short of the total matter in the >universe. Exponentially as a function of what? Obviously it grows exponentially as a function of proper time (if the ship expends a constant fraction of its mass each second, to maintain a certain thrust, then of course its mass decays exponentially with time), but so what? The interesting question would be how the ratio grows as a function of distance traveled. It turns out that the proper time required to travel a distance 2D is equal to 2 ln (1 + a D + sqrt(a^2 D^2 + 2 a D)). Since the fuel ratio grows exponentially with the proper time, we find that the fuel ratio is asymptotically proportional to the square of the distance to be traveled. David desJardins ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 86 23:48:50 GMT From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes: >I finally figured out that he (Frank Adams) meant that the >acceleration *in* *any* *one* *trip* was constant, and that the >mass ratio grows exponentially as the trip acceleration. Aha! This is another interesting question. But it isn't what Frank meant, since it doesn't come out that way. The fuel-to-mass ratio to travel distance 2D at acceleration a is 2 x^2 + (x + 1)sqrt(x^2 + 2 x) + 4 x + 1, where x = a D. So, for a fixed distance, the fuel ratio to make the trip at acceleration a is asymptotically quadratic in the acceleration. Another interesting question is: suppose you want to travel a distance 2D -- what is the fuel ratio required, as a function of the proper time 2T? That is; given how far you need to go, how much more does it cost to get there more quickly? If we let R be the ratio of the initial mass to the final mass (so that the fuel-to-payload ratio is R - 1), then it turns out that (sqrt(R) - 1)^2 / sqrt(R) ln(R) = D / T. The left-hand side is asymptotically proportional to sqrt(R), so if R is large, this tells us that it is inversely proportional to the square of the trip time. But this breaks down for small R, so we need to examine that case more carefully. Here is a chart of my results (D is in LY, T is in years -- D/T = 1 means one light-year per year of proper time): Fuel:Payload Distance:Time 1 : 2 .102 : 1 1 : 1 .175 : 1 2 : 1 .282 : 1 5 : 1 .425 : 1 10 : 1 .642 : 1 25.3: 1 1.000 : 1 David desJardins ------------------------------ Date: 30 Aug 86 01:02:31 GMT From: voder!kevin@caip.rutgers.edu (The Last Bugfighter) Subject: Re: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints fitz@ukecc.UUCP (Catherine Ariel Wolffe) writes: > FTL travel is not explicitly stated in either movie, but it is >inferred in _Aliens_. How else could the rescue ship reach LV-426 >in only 17 days? And this time is objective. The length of time to >LV-426 in _Alien_ is far longer than in _Aliens_, because >technology has changed and the ships can attain greater FTL speed. But is the rescue ship coming from Earth or from some closer outpost? Kevin Thompson {ucbvax,pyramid,nsc}!voder!kevin ------------------------------ Date: 30 Aug 86 02:22:08 GMT From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) I have realized that I made a mistake in my original posting on this subject. The fuel ratio for the 4 LY, 10 month rocket-ship trip is not 35:1. It is 1330:1 (I forgot to square it -- 35:1 for acceleration, and then another 35:1 to decelerate). Not what you would call an easy trip! David desJardins ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 86 22:53:49 GMT From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (T Cox) Subject: Re: Memory and RNA >> [me] [re eating brains and absorbing RNA to 'learn' things] ever >>told you that knowledge was encoded in RNA?!? Sure, cells' >>instructions, but do you think that all the stuff you studied in >>college and high school is packed away as RNA? From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> >My understanding is that this is still one of the hot research >areas of psychobiology. I think the current understanding is that >our memory is holographic in some manner, and that, as in a >hologram, it does not put discrete parts in discrete places. >[stuff deleted] But given the lack of solid evidence of what *does* >implement memory, I'm not at all sure I'd care to be as definite as >that in stating what does not. Hmm. Methinks I was a bit hasty here. Please forget I said anything about RNA. *I* sure don't know how memory is stored, if it really is 'stored' at all. How's this, though ... For the Aliens to un-code human memories and re-code them as their own, they would have to be able to figure out how our brains encode data. We can't do that. So why can they? And do you think that EATING is the way to decode and re-encode this? You think this complex biochemical analysis and de-recoder is in the Alien's stomache? Remember that even the old corpses the Marines found had their heads intact. This has been a good discussion. I've enjoyed others' postings; I hope mine have been at least marginally worth reading. Keep it up, people. "You're not going to offer your suggestion that Shelob was an Alien?" Nah, they can read that in the Weekly World News. Thomas Cox CompuServe: 76317,3121 GEnie: CLIPJOINT UUCP: ...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Sep 86 11:26:50 EDT From: SHADOW%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Astronomy Undergraduate) Subject: Aliens (Good Question?) Thomas Cox wrote earlier: >>And why didn't she (Ripley) nuke the original space ship??? > >Ooooh, now here's a good question. We never saw the alien ship >from the first movie in THIS movie; we're supposed to forget it. >There is opening #2 for a sequel. Anyone want to try to figure out >how/why Ripley forgot? Simple. Ripley in the first movie was one of the supporting characters watching her crewmates get killed off systematically by the Alien. Finally, she found herself to be the last one alive. I think, for one thing, survival was the most important thing on her mind, and not so much the ramifications of leaving the nest behind in tact. In fact, I doubt seriously if she even was thinking about the nest at all, while being stalked by the Alien. So, at this point (trying to get off the infested Nostromo) Ripley's thoughts were on self-preservation. Now we come to the biz with her leaving in that little shuttle. She set the Nostromo to self destruct, in hopes of killing the Alien, since she did not have the hand fire-power to destroy it if confronted. Thus, by saving herself, she destroyed any chance of nuking the original nest, since I doubt that a life pod would be armed with tactical nuclear armament. Also, since there was no settlement established on the planet, I think any thought Ripley might have had about the nest would have been wiped away with her certain belief that once she gave her report to the company, the planet would be quarantined (or something like that, even if that belief was misguided.) Ripley didn't plan on being asleep for 57 years, so she did not have the foresight to visualize a whole colony on that planet. What this boils down to is this: Ripley did not nuke the original site because 1) She was too occupied with saving her own skin, and 2) She did not expect that the company would be so idiotic as to set a colony up on that planet once they had seen her report. Any other questions? SHADOW@UMass.Bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 2 Sep 86 21:41:31 GMT From: loral!dml@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis) Subject: Re: Aliens (kinda late) I have seen Aliens and think I have some answers to some of the `flaws' people have been pointing out on the net. About the only things I saw wrong with it were an incredibly stupid blunder, and the fusion reactor blowing its top so easily. Our news is dead. I don't know when this article will hit the net. I hope the Aliens debate hasn't died by then. Ripley's nightmare: Very effectively conveys the way she is haunted by the events shown in Alien. After what she went through, I'd be surprised if she DIDN'T have nightmares. Ammo capacity of the M-41A: If you listen closely when Hicks is describing the weapon you will note that he says "ten millimeter CASELESS". Observe that they do not spit out a stream of spent cartridges when fired. Caseless rounds are significantly smaller than the cased ammo you're used to seeing (no bulky brass), and can be packed in a magazine more efficiently. The M-41A magazine, which looked to be about six inches by three by two, could well hold 95 10mm caseless rounds. Side note: Spent magazines are probably disposable. Saves time in combat, and since caseless ammo can't be stuffed into the magazine by hand would probably be cheaper than transporting a loading machine on the ship. Why the Lieutenant directs the operation by remote control: Though we wouldn't do it that way today, maybe they've learned something. At least it keeps one link in the chain of command intact, which is an advantage if your commander is competent. It's true that in this case the best thing the Lieutenant could do would be to get killed off. (He does redeem himself. Remember when Vasquez runs out of ammo? The Lieutenant turns back to help her. When they are surrounded by Aliens, it's the Lieutenant who pulls out and arms a grenade.) Why everybody is sent into the Alien nest: Everybody is not sent. One Marine remains on the lander with the pilot, and Burke, Ripley and the Lieutenant remain in the ground transport. Bishop too, I think. Why the lander is parked with the ramp down: The Lieutenant has declared the area secure. Why they don't get wise to the Aliens sneaking in from above: They only do it twice and the conditions are different. The first time, they are hiding in the slime-stuff, and they look just like part of it until they move. The Marines wouldn't know how that stuff is supposed to look anyway. Second time, they're up in the ceiling plenum, out of sight. Are these Aliens wimpy compared to the original? I don't think so. Remember, the crew of the Nostromo were civilians with no combat training, and had no idea what they were up against. At first they are unarmed, then they build some makeshift weapons which they don't really get a chance to use. The Colonial Marines are experienced warriors armed with the latest equipment; it only makes sense that they will be more effective. Also, Dallas & co. didn't dare injure the Alien on board the Nostromo! The Nostromo's primary hull was an integral part of the hyperdrive generator, with molecular circuits running all through it. Let Alien-juice eat one hole in the hull and the hyperdrive will be ruined. If the drive is active at the time, it could blow up the ship! If it doesn't, the crew will still die of old age even if they manage to kill the Alien. (Explained in the book) What the Aliens eat: Anything they want to. They've had the run of the colony for several weeks. Also, I think they can sort of hibernate when inactive, to save energy. That would explain why they don't pounce on the Marines at once -- either they need a little time to warm up, or they don't notice them until they start flaming. Side note -- I think they breathe through those tubes on their backs. Why Ripley toasts the Alien eggs: One of the damned things just opened up. I wouldn't want one - or more - of those hand-crab monsters at large behind MY back. And she just wrestled with one a few hours ago. Why Bishop moves the lander: The platform is unstable. In fact, when I saw the scene, I expected the platform to collapse when he set down. The platform looks flimsy, the lander looks solid. As for why he's out of sight, maybe prolonged hovering puts a strain on the lander's engines or is horribly wasteful of fuel. Why Ripley uses a power-loader in her battle with the Alien-Queen: It's the only thing she can get her hands on. Remember, the Sulaco is an interstellar troopship, not a battlecraft. I would not expect to find personal small arms anywhere but on board the landing craft. Even if there were one or more small-arms lockers in the ship itself: 1. Would there be one close to the hangar deck? Time is critical. 2. Would Ripley know where it is? 3. Would she be authorized to open it -- have the key/combination/access code required? I don't think so. I think only the Lieutenant, the Sergeant, Bishop, Hicks and Vasquez would be so authorized. So, the only guns available to Ripley are on board the lander, and the Queen is in the way. Ripley is forced to improvise with the power-loader. Why Ripley doesn't lose a leg: The Queen grabbed her boot, and it came off. It looked like part of her pant leg came off too. Incredibly stupid blunder: Ripley goes into the Alien nest WITHOUT SPARE MAGAZINES FOR THE M-41A! NO-body that stupid could live to adulthood. Alien origin: I agree with the posters who think Aliens are genetically engineered weapons. They are completely efficient, adaptable to a wider range of environments than any single planet could provide, and they run through the available supply of hosts in short order. Any successful evolved parasite would have to somehow leave a breeding stock of hosts. Also, a naturally evolved critter would of necessity be adapted to use the organisms present on its home planet; these have no trouble with a completely alien host. Dave Lewis Loral Instrumentation San Diego ...loral!dml ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Sep 86 1113-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #282 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 8 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 282 Today's Topics: Books - Clarke (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Sep 86 17:19:08 GMT From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Clarke's Writings on Religion I'm almost always interested in religion and faith as subjects of fiction, and I've followed Clarke ever since his books were available to me. Religion and the supernatural are frequent themes in Clarke's writing. Unfortunately, there is a streak of naivete in his writing which tends to position him in a state of oversimplification. Clarke's view of religion as it is is typically hostile in a casual sort of way; his treatment is anthropological, and his thesis is that religion persists because we don't know any better. Behind this (in the books) is presented a mixture of wishful thinking and overstatement. For instance, in _Songs of Distant Earth_, there is a chapter titled "Whatever Gods May Be..." in which he explains how religion came to pass away. He presents basically two arguments, of which the second is the classic "limits to knowledge" argument based on Godel. This argument is useless because it assumes that the kinds of systems Godel concerned himself with are the only interesting, useful, or possible kinds. We simply don't know that, and there's no confidence that we could know that. The first argument is wishful thinking; nobody knows whether or not a statistical analysis of so-called miracles or good and evil would come out one way or another (and the incentives for falsification of data would be great indeed). Furthermore, a negative result wouldn't prove much beyond "the actions of a supposed supernatural are not detectable in this way," which, when you think about it, is not much of a conclusion. In _Childhood's End_, religion is abolished by machines showing the past. No one in the book stops to question the motives of the Overlords or bothers to consider that they are being lied to. (Not to mention that the notion of the lives of the prophets *are* going to be disenchanting.) Here we also see Clarke's oddly occultish humanism, which is also an important feature of _2001_ and _2010_. Generally, people reading books like this for the religious content ought to remember that they are being sold a bill of goods. Religious fiction, pro and con, is in a fundamental way based on an unreality. One's critical antennae should be fully active, and the proper reading mode should be one of a certain skepticism. It should also be remembered that religion is not a single thing, nor is it a scale. I enjoyed _Time Bandits_ a lot, even with its negative religious message, because it wasn't MY religion that was being satirized. Read in this way, I don't think a work of fiction presents any grave danger, and I myself find the differing viewpoints stimulating (although in all fairness, there are a lot of things I would rather only read once). It's uncritical reading, without any attempt at context or contrast, which is intellectually dangerous-- not because it causes thinking, but because it creates the illusion of thought, when really all that is happening is reaction. There's no virtue in a fundamentalist picking up Clarke, reading it, and simply abandoning his "obselete" religion. Likewise, there's no virtue in christianity as a flight from secular atheism. There's no thought involved; it's all just emotional reaction against one's supposedly more childish state. One unthinking position is merely traded for another, with all the same flaws (and usually, the added fault of pseudosophistication). By the same token, a lot of people, particularly children at various stages of life, simply aren't prepared to approach these books with the proper sort of critical attitude. Back when I was in 6th grade and picked up a few Heinleins, I simply did not appreciate the casual racism and often sexism that permeates much of his writing. If I had kids now at the same age, I believe I would discourage them from reading a lot of the same books, because they would be most unlikely to be able to evaluate what they were reading and reject what was racist or sexist in the writing. So in that sense there is some purpose for review boards, as long as their purpose is not intellectual purity. C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: 3 Sep 86 16:31:49 GMT From: thain@magic.DEC.COM (Glenn Thain) Subject: Re: Clarke's Writings on Religion mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes: > I'm alomst always interested in religion and faith as subjects of > fiction, and I've followed Clarke ever since his books were > available to me. Religion and the supernatural are frequent > themes in Clarke's writing. Unfortunately, there is a streak of > naivete in his writing which tends to position him in a state of > oversimplification. I think there is a danger here, which needs to be brought out in the open. Clarke writes *fiction*, taking ideals and social situations and adding elements of the unusual to them. It's unfortunate that in the article, Mr. Wingate has forgotten the basic premise of fiction which to tell an unbelievable story in such a way that the reader will buy into the reality being presented. Mr. Wingate has decided that Clarke is to be a spiritual teacher rather than an entertainer. A dangerous line of reasoning, no? > Clarke's view of religion as it is is typically hostile in a > casual sort of way; his treatment is anthropological, and his > thesis is that religion persists because we don't know any better. > Behind this (in the books) is presented a mixture of wishful > thinking and overstatement. Most fictional representations of religion are overstated. Your attack upon the man's work is based on some idealogical thought that what he should be presenting is some Christian ideal by which people could glean a greater knowlage and insight about God. > ( various of Clarke's books subjected to critical analysis deleted) > > Generally, people reading books like this for the religious > content ought to remember that they are being sold a bill of > goods. People reading these for religious content should focus on the fact that this is one man's opinion of where he sees modern religion headed. The fact that he remains ambigious is because of all the social/political rammifications which must be taken into account. Furthermore, he is after all writing *fiction* and not historical theory. People reading books like this for religious content should subscribe to the WATCHTOWER instead. > Religious fiction, pro and con, is in a fundamental way based on > an unreality. One's critical antennae should be fully active, and > the proper reading mode should be one of a certain skepticism. "One's critical antennae?" Your treatment of the man's work was at best poor, and you talk about critical antennae? ( Whatever they may be?) I'm amazed that you tried to glean any religious content out of it at all! > It should also be remembered that religion is not a single thing, > nor is it a scale. I enjoyed _Time Bandits_ a lot, even with its > negative religious message, because it wasn't MY religion that was > being satirized. Great, so it's o.k. to poke fun at other's religions, not yours. I'm convinced now that the Christian God DOES have a sense of humor! > Read in this way, I don't think a work of fiction presents any > grave danger, and I myself find the differing viewpoints > stimulating (although in all fairness, there are a lot of things I > would rather only read once). It's uncritical reading, without > any attempt at context or contrast, which is intellectually > dangerous-- not because it causes thinking, but because it creates > the illusion of thought, when really all that is happening is > reaction. There's no virtue in a fundamentalist picking up > Clarke, reading it, and simply abandoning his "obselete" religion. > Likewise, there's no virtue in christianity as a flight from > secular atheism. There's no thought involved; it's all just > emotional reaction against one's supposedly more childish state. > One unthinking position is merely traded for another, with all the > same flaws (and usually, the added fault of pseudosophistication). Uncritical? Trying to find religious content in fiction, claiming that since it didn't exist or that religion was badly handled them mauling the works is uncritical judgement? No wonder there was an Inquisition! ( My Lord, the Church judges upon the evidence presented, as it was handed down by God, we remain uncritical of the defendent! She *IS* a Witch!) > By the same token, a lot of people, particularly children at > various stages of life, simply aren't prepared to approach these > books with the proper sort of critical attitude. Back when I was > in 6th grade and picked up a few Heinleins, I simply did not > appreciate the casual racism and often sexism that permeates much > of his writing. If I had kids now at the same age, I believe I > would discourage them from reading a lot of the same books, > because they would be most unlikely to be able to evaluate what > they were reading and reject what was racist or sexist in the > writing. So in that sense there is some purpose for review > boards, as long as their purpose is notintellectual purity. What makes you think your children will see any more in a Heinlein book than you did? Usually adults are the only one's to see the sexual innuendos, racism, and underlying themes of hatred of amn against man. Many children only see a good adventure story. Review Boards serve no purpose but to shove someone else's idea of morality down another's throat. There is no guarantee that these people, once placed in a position of power, wouldn't abuse it. Frankly, I wouldn't like to live through another Dark Ages period, but I'm sort of funny in that respect. You, Ray Frank, and Larry Morales seem to disagree. If you want to live your lives this way, I have no complaint. Just don't attempt to drag me under with you. Evanglism has it's place, in the home and church, not in the street. Glenn thain@src.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 3 Sep 86 23:00:10 GMT From: watdcsu!dmcanzi@caip.rutgers.edu (David Canzi) Subject: Re: Clarke's Writings on Religion mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes: >By the same token, a lot of people, particularly children at >various stages of life, simply aren't prepared to approach these >books with the proper sort of critical attitude. Back when I was >in 6th grade and picked up a few Heinleins, I simply did not >appreciate the casual racism and often sexism that permeates much >of his writing. If I had kids now at the same age, I believe I >would discourage them from reading a lot of the same books, because >they would be most unlikely to be able to evaluate what they were >reading and reject what was racist or sexist in the writing. Two comments: 1) I have read a lot of Heinlein, and I don't remember his works as being permeated with racism and sexism. Could you provide examples? 2) The phrase "protecting my children from reading certain ideas until they are old enough to evaluate them", when translated into Russian by a computer program and translated back again, becomes "preventing them from reading those ideas until they have been sufficiently conditioned to reject those ideas". Superficially, it looks like the computer goofed again, but I'm not quite sure... David Canzi ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 86 23:07:36 GMT From: hutch@volkstation.gwd.tek.com (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: Clarke's Writings on Religion Glenn Thain replies at length to an article by Charlie Wingate. Rather than quote at length from both articles I will take up specifics with Glenn by mail. However, I do want to comment on a few minor points. Glenn compares Charlie's desire to discourage his children from reading Clarke's (and Heinlein's) works until they have developed the critical faculties which would allow them to distinguish the inherent biases in those works, to the Communist Chinese scholastic training methods. Glenn, this is not only a cheap shot but an incredibly naive thing to say. Science fiction is a story telling medium, but that does not mean that the authors ignore the opportunity to give out their political views. This is especially true of these two writers. Clarke's philosophical bias is aggressively advanced in his books by two major techniques: first, the storylines are set up to "prove" his philosophy, which is presented by one or more characters, and second, the identification-figures in his books, the heroes and those persons from whose point of view the story is told, all express his philosophy. Clarke's attitude towards religion IS pervasive in his books, presented in a subliminally coercive fashion, and it is very appropriate to be concerned that someone who is reading the work as fiction, with many critical faculties "turned off" in relaxation, will adopt that attitude, at least for a while. Heinlein is more blatant with his philosophic meanderings, having his lead characters (which are pretty much the same character talking through different masks) go into extended talking-head spiels. At any rate, Charlie as a parent has a responsibility to raise his children, and the goals he has in that raising most likely include training an ethical sense, giving them the tools to rationally understand the world around them and other people, and so forth. You do NOT have this degree of immediate responsibility towards his children and should not censure him for expressing his desire to raise them to be analytical of the things they read. Some contributors (in the net.religion distribution of this article) have expressed their political desire to abolish and forbid teaching of religious precepts to children. That amounts to the legal establishment of those individuals' personal religious beliefs, and fortunately we in America have a Constitution which prevents this sort of thing. The only remaining question is, "is it ethical to control what your children read?" and the answer is, unfortunately, a situational one. Under some circumstances it is a good idea to restrict their reading, television, movies, and so forth, until they have learned the skills necessary to understand what messages are implied as well as explicit in what they are watching. Most parents don't know how to teach those skills because they themselves don't have them. In the long run, what a parent chooses to censor will be irrelevant. The child will either subvert the parent's wishes or will no longer be under the parent's control. THAT is why the important part of what Charlie was saying is, "until they can spot such hidden messages". Hutch ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Sep 86 0858-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #283 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 9 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 283 Today's Topics: Films - Submarine Movies (2 msgs) & Jittlov (2 msgs) & Cronenberg (2 msgs) & SF Films on Video (2 msgs) & Gross and Disgusting Movies & Big Trouble in Little China & Impulse & Silent Running (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Aug 86 16:49:04 GMT From: rayssdb!iws@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Re: Silent Running movie song (where the title comes Subject: from) > I agree--"Run Silent Run Deep" is the archetypical submarine > movie, which I remember more for its having Don Rickles in the > cast than anything else, but it was a tense one. Perhaps more > cerebral was the destroyer vs. sub battle of "The Enemy Below". > Anyone want to discuss submarine flicks? Yes, I would like to read more about submarine movies. Especially since we at SubSig are in the submarine business! To the two mentioned above I would add "Operation Petticoat" and "Gray Lady Down". The former is quite good: the first half is hilarious and the second provides some good action scenes. The latter supposedly takes place in the present, but is grossly inaccurate in terms of the submarine it is supposed to be versus what is actually in the fleet. A good foreign flick was "Das Boot" ("The Boat") with a lot of suspense and action as well as the usual futility of effort during wartime. I saw this movie the night before I went out on a submarine ride - it definitely put me in the right frame of mind! ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 04:54:19 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Silent Running movie song (where the title comes from) Writing late at night I generated this verbal fruit cocktail. Let me rewrite some of it. >Both are good films with ENEMY BELOW probably having the edge. (It >has been too long since I saw RUN SILENT, RUN DEEP. Both seem >rather Hollywoodish beside DAS BOOT (THE BOAT). That is probably >the most realistic submarine film and one of the tensest. I >understand that the one cinematic convention ...that the film followed was that the crew was reasonably fully clothed. On the real U-boats... >the men quickly stripped to wearing at most underwear and often >nothing. The book makes a point of how hot it is on the sub, but I >don't know if it talked about the state of undress of the men. Sorry if I confused anyone. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 3 Sep 86 02:54:00 GMT From: ccvaxa!wombat@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Jittlov news? Did anyone out there go to one of the Jittlov presentations in Atlanta? Any news on status of the film or anything else he's been up to lately? Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 86 18:03:39 GMT From: hoptoad!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: Jittlov news? wombat@ccvaxa.UUCP writes: >Did anyone out there go to one of the Jittlov presentations in >Atlanta? Any news on status of the film or anything else he's been >up to lately? In a series of interesting conversations at Atlanta, the following fact-like phrases turned up: 1) "Wizard of Speed and Time", the feature, has completed principle photography, and is expected to be released in late Spring or early Summer of '87. 2) WOSAT, the short, has been reshot in 35MM, with added stuff such as a trip around the world. Mike Farren hoptoad!farren ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 05:44:27 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: The Fly (Cronenberg filmography) Cronenberg filmography: 1966 TRANSFER 1967 FROM THE DRAIN 1969 STEREO excruciatingly dull 1970 CRIMES OF THE FUTURE excruciatingly dull 1975 PARASITE MURDERS/SHIVERS/THEY CAME FROM WITHIN a genuine step up, a tongue in cheek horror film with some very good touches in spite of ludicrous premise 1976 RABID Marilyn Chambers film, still not very good, a step below PARASITE MURDERS 1979 FAST COMPANY 1979 THE BROOD slow but interesting horror film that makes for the first time some serious social comment 1980 SCANNERS solid science fiction action film, some great images 1982 VIDEODROME topical, but eventually Cronenberg loses most of his audience, some nice touches 1983 DEAD ZONE under the control of his producer, this is Cronenberg's most normal film, cold but effective study of psychic powers 1986 THE FLY in spite of gross-out effects and interesting study of a man in transition to something nonhuman Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 6 Sep 1986 09:18:12-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: David Cronenberg's films > From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU > My final question is, has anyone seen the earlier films by this > demented director? I believe they are Scanners and Videodrome. I > have heard they are quite gory and bizarre too. Are they similar > in quality to The Fly or just pure gore? If they are like The > Fly, I will want to see them sometime, but I want to avoid gore > for gore's sake. Cronenberg is a very strange and idiosyncratic director. His films often fail for varying reasons, but I think that they're brilliant failures. He has a very disturbing vision that makes his films worth watching. In most cases, there isn't much gore at all in his films (of course, what constitutes "gore" varies from person to person), but the images are often disturbing nonetheless. A brief run-down of the ones I've seen: THE PARASITE MURDERS (aka THEY CAME FROM WITHIN and SHIVERS) A doctor creates a parasite that is a combination aphrodisiac and venereal disease, and it infects the inhabitants of an apartment complex. Some of the effects of the slugs transferring from one person to another is rather gross, but not really gory. RABID has a really dumb premise in which some strange skin grafting turns Marilyn Chambers into a vampiric type who in the process of "quenching her thirst" turns her victims into rabid killers. If you can accept the premise, the rest actually goes pretty nicely. THE BROOD is a tad more pyschological than the others, and is harder to describe. There is a fair amount of blood involved, but no reall gore that I can recall. SCANNERS recalls the George Hamilton film THE POWER, in its story that's basicly about a hunt and battle between two psi-powered people. An exploding head in the beginning, and the blood-vessel-popping battle at the end are the only real gory scenes. VIDEODROME is a very bizarre psychological study involving sadism, television, and the nature of reality. There are some scenes that might be considered gory, such as the main character pulling objects out of his stomach, but it's not too bad. THE DEAD ZONE, based on Stephen King's novel, is extremely mild mild compared to the others. Only one grisly scene (which seemed gratuitous in context), thankfully brief. THE FLY was, to my mind, the most gruesome of the bunch. It actually made me feel "squirmy", which few other films, including the other Cronenberg's, have done. The only other film of this type of recent vintage was RE-ANIMATOR. But you don't have to take my word for all this. The only scene in a fiction film that I couldn't bear to watch at all was in THE EXORCIST, when what's-her-name was given a spinal tap in the hospital. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Sep 86 08:10 PDT From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@VERMITHRAX.SCH.Symbolics.COM> Subject: Re: SciFi Movies on Video, Part II From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> >> King Kong (1933 w/Fay Wray) >Did anybody else find that this was better, even in its effects, >than the later version (which gave Jessica Lange such a bad name >until she proved so very well what she could do)? Absolutely. I still can't believe the Sam Peckinpawish end of the remake, with helicopter gunships blowing huge bloody holes into Kong for what seemed an eternity. What a piece of junk! >> Logan's Run >For anybody who has only seen the abortive TV series that tried to >stand on this one's feet, take heart: the film is *far* better. >Micheal York is great as Logan. Pardon my memory, but I can't >remember who played the woman with whom he "run"s. She is also >very good, though. Jenny Agutter. >> Planet of the Apes (the whole series) >The book of Berton Rouche's, on which these are based, is, to my >mind, far better than the films, even the first one. The main >story is contained between a most interesting prologue and >epilogue. The book was by Pierre Boulle. Who's Berton Rouche? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Sep 86 10:04:31 EDT From: "Daniel P. Dern" <ddern@ccb.bbn.com> Subject: Planet of the Apes, Correction >> Planet of the Apes (the whole series) >The book of Berton Rouche's, on which these are based, Pierre Boulle wrote the original book, which is much more of a wowser than any of the films, although they had their [naive] charm at odd moments. ------------------------------ Date: Fri 5 Sep 86 16:19:38-CDT From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: Re: Gross and Disgusting Movies In response to the inquiry about G&D movies, I think a distinction should be made between G&D movies (e.g. Friday 13th, Halloween, etc) and movies that happen to use G&D effects. I think The Fly falls into the latter category. It is a great film that people will enjoy for its story, characters, ideas, etc., not just the special effects. It has a purpose besides merely disgusting the audience. Admittedly, disgusting the audience seems to be one of its goals, but this disgust contributes to the movie. It is not gratuitous gross-and-disgustingness, but G&Dness with a purpose besides simply being G&D. I don't go to true G&D movies, but it has always been my understanding that people who do go only to watch the death and dismemberment, and they have no interest (or at best, secondary interest) in the plot or characters. Now I imagine such a person who sees The Fly will come away satisfied with "the good parts" but feeling annoyed at how "slow" the movie was in the first half and complaining of all the time wasted on extraneous plot details... Sure, The Fly had G&D scenes, very strong ones in fact, but the style of the film is entirely different from a typical G&D film. There are many movies with G&D scenes which I think few people would claim are G&D movies. A good example is Indiana Jones & the Temple of Doom, with its scene of the priest ripping out the heart. It seems analogous to hardcore porn versus sexy films. The fuzzy line between the two is not drawn according to WHAT is shown, but HOW & WHY. At least that's the way reasonable people draw it; I suppose Fundamentalist types use the former criterion... Russ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Sep 86 17:23 EDT From: " Roz " <RTaylor@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: Re: "Big Trouble in Little China" I'm only two months behind on my reading . . . sorry. I went to see "Big Trouble in Little China" and the thing that impressed me the most was the lack of blood and gore. (I like that--the lack, that is.) Not as bloodless as Raiders of the Lost Ark, but nearly. And, I did enjoy the humor and Kurt's character portrayal. Roz (aka RTaylor at radc-multics) ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 86 17:33:12 GMT From: rlvd!nbc@caip.rutgers.edu (Neil Calton) Subject: Re: Was this movie ever released? (possible spoilers) yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu.UUCP writes: >A couple years ago, I remember seeing a trailer for an sf movie >based on an interesting premise. The main idea was that >*something* had caused all of the people in a town (city, state, >country, world???) to act on their impulses without any >inhibitions. The clip include scenes where a kid was setting fire >to a building, a sheriff was shooting at the kid with a rifle, and >a man and a woman were kissing, and I think some people were >smashing their cars into any vehicles in the way. > >I believe the title of the movie was something like "Impulse", and >I saw an early pre-release ad for "Lifeforce" at the same time. > >Does anyone know anything about this film? The film was called 'Impulse' and was directed by Graham Baker. It was made in the USA in 1984 but was not released in GB until March 1986. It featured Meg Tilly, Tim Matheson, Hume Cronyn, Bill Paxton. Basic plot involves an earthquake opening subterranean storage chambers and a mysterious substance leaking out. This causes everybody in the nearby town to act completely on impulse - playful, violent, mischievous, self-destructive - and the place is sealed off by government officials. The reviewer in Monthly Film Bulletin described it as a paranoia movie in the tradition of 'The Crazies' and 'Endangered Species'. Apparently, the dislocations of normality are not very sensational - urinating in the high street, petty robbery, adultery in a bar, although there is the sheriff shooting a kid, a doctor turning off his patient's respirator and a hint of incest. However, the film shuns any holocaustic ending - the blame being laid on a callously homicidal government agency. (See MFB Vol. 53, No. 626 March 1986). BTW, it is rather ironic that a brand of perfume on sale in this country is called Impulse and the ads. on tv feature these clean cut guys getting the mad impulse to buy flowers when they whiff the scent on a passing girl. Wonder if the company knows about the film? Neil Calton Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, Chilton, Didcot, Oxon OX11 0QX England Tel: (0235) 21900 ext 5740 UUCP: ..!mcvax!ukc!rlvd!nbc ARPA: @ucl-cs.arpa:nbc@vd.rl.ac.uk JANET: nbc@uk.ac.rl.vd N.B.M.CALTON@uk.ac.rl ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 86 15:20:51 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Silent Running (2) > From: decwrl!carnellp@usrcv1.dec.com (Paul Carnell) > ...This movie came out just when [Joan Baez's] anti-war preaching > was at its zenith and the "establishment" had had about enough. I > beleave this film was banned in Boston, I know it was pulled from > theaters by the now defunct Maryland Censor Board. And it's rated > "G" no less! I don't recall that this film was "banned in Boston", since I saw it here when it was released. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 86 15:18:43 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Silent Running (1) > From: minnie!chris (Chris Grevstad) >>There *isn't* a song named "Silent Running" on the soundtrack. >>Look at it again, and you'll see that it's called "Running >>Silent". It's been awhile since I've seen the movie, but I believe >>that both songs appear in the film. > > Beg to differ here. I just saw the movie and there certainly was > the song "Silent Running" in the movie. At least it is listed in > the credits. I did not say that the song was not in the film. In fact, if you re-read the quote from me above, I said I believed that it was. But I re-iterate: the title of the song was "Running Silent", *not* "Silent Running". --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Sep 86 0932-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #284 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 9 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 284 Today's Topics: Television - Science Fiction Theater & Ultraman (3 msgs) & Macross & Space Cruiser Yamato & Star Trek & Jonny Quest & Barbara Eden & More Old SF TV (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Sep 86 13:33:06 GMT From: sii!kgg@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenn Goutal) Subject: old TV show I've only just started (again, after a long absence) reading the newsgroup, so I may have missed one of the responses on this topic, but... Does anyone remember a weekly show called "Science Fiction Theater"? I used to watch it in the early sixties, but it may have been reruns even then. Being a naive little twit, I had no idea whether it was a dumb show or not, but I do recall that it was a little more serious than most, then or now. It wasn't really intended to be thrilling, or terrifying, (like Outer Limits or Twilight Zone), or even that adventuresome, but was rather more a fictionalized study/investigation/exploration of some far-out idea. One of the more 'adventurous' ones involved a man trapped under car out in the desert who spontaneously developed the ability to transmit thought, thereby calling for aid from his wife or a friend or some such. I forget if he lost the ability after he was rescued. I think some parallel was drawn with the hysterical strength some people have in their need to rescue someone -- lifting cars, whatnot. Otherwise, an old story. Another story, much more laboratory-oriented, was about how sound waves had been recorded on solidifying lava or some such, thus recording voices and other sounds involved in the volcanic destruction of Pompeii (?). I recall the introductory part of one, showing a largish glass tank in which gases were being ionized with large electrical sparks as part of experiments exploring the origins of life in the primordial soup. Now for the triva question (to which I do not know the answer): What was the name of the host, who ended each show with "Our story, of course, is fiction; but the scientific principles are real." (or something close to that), and: "Until then, this is your host, _______, saying ``See you next week''". ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 86 05:19:18 GMT From: cec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: (-: pH's SF-Lovers Digest :-) JEREMY%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes: >Has everyone forgotten "Ultraman"? . . . >Does anyone remember more? Just to get my two cents in: I loved how the "super-weapon" (which looked like it was just a bigger version of their ray pistols, though not so big that it couldn't be hand-held), which was always their last hope (aside from Ultraman), _never_ worked against any of the monsters. Also the brilliant theme song, of course: Ultraman! Ultraman! Here he comes from the sky! Ultraman! Ultraman! Watch our hero fly! In a super-jet he comes from a million miles away, from a distant planet! . . . [Here my memory gives out. The rest, anyone?] pH ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1986 11:00 CST From: John Bertram Geis(Syzygy Darklock) Subject: Old SF TV Shows With all this talk of old SF Television programs, why has no one mentioned...ULTRA MAN! I remember watching this show quite a lot when I was a kid (I assume somebody else out there MUST have seen it. I saw it on either the CBC or CTV, and neither one of them are intelligent enough to run something that they haven't found on the American Networks...). I distinctly remember the final (??) episode, when Ultra-Man gets into a pitched battle with one of the monsters he had already killed in some previous show, but which had come back. He was pinned down and was unable to change back when his chest "warning light" began to flash. He won the fight, then died (or at least fell over and went into a coma). Another Ultra-Man then arrived (I guess there's an entire race of them, or something...), and took his body home, along with his still active "soul" or mind. As I recall, Ultra-Man came to Earth originally to explore it or something, and accidently killed a young Japanese man who was a member of the "Japanese Monster Patrol" or something like that. He felt guilty, so he either replaced the dead man, or reincarnated him as a part of himself. Either way, he used the guy as his secret identity, changing into Ultra-man to fight the many monsters that attacked Japan in the mid-1960's or so (seemed to be about one or two of them every week!!). John Bertram Geis <GEISJBJ@UREGINA1> ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 86 18:17:00 GMT From: render@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: SF-TV shows (Ultraman) cc-30@cory.Berkeley.EDU writes: >Boy, that brings back memories, Ultraman came to Earth while >chasing an intergalactic monster. He accidently kills a human, but >in his compassion shares his life with the human. To become >Ultraman, he must raise the Beta Capsule (the small metallic >device). Ultraman also had to win quickly, otherwise the little >light on his chest would start blinking, telling him that the >Earth's sun was starting to drain his energy. If the light stopped >blinking, Ultraman would die. I also remember his ray that he fired >by crossing his arms in front of his face. Anybody else want to >add more... Yeah! I liked it best when he threw what looked like circular saw blades and cut the critters in two. And where else do you see N-hundred foot tall robots use Karate on monsters from outer space? Hal Render University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign render@b.cs.uiuc.edu (ARPA) {seismo,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!render (USENET) ------------------------------ Date: 2 Sep 86 18:17:41 GMT From: jsloan@wright.EDU (John Sloan) Subject: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory? I have a couple of questions which seem appropriate for net.sf-lovers and net.comics. _Email_ me flames if you think this is the wrong forum for these. If anyone is interested in commenting, feel free to email to me and I will summarize and post in a few weeks. Somehow I've gotten into the Japanese animation stuff, especially the Macross/Robotech stuff. After attending some related panels at the Worldcon in Atlanta, this occurred to me: The "good guys" in Macross seem very western, while the "bad guys" seem (at least in the American translation) to embody much of the culture of feudal Japan. Do you think Macross is an allegory for the infusion, and eventual dominance, of western cultural myths over the native Japanese myths? Have the Japanese forseen this (surely they have), and do they in fact see it as (eventually) a positive influence? Or is it just a good story and I'm making too much of my early, somewhat literary background? (Acknowledgement to David Brin). John Sloan jsloan@wright.{CSNET,UUCP} ...!cbosgd!wright!jsloan Computer Science Department Wright State University, Dayton OH, 45435 +1 513 873 {2987,2491,2622}, +1 513 426 8082 ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 86 04:04:42 GMT From: cc-30@cory.Berkeley.EDU Subject: Space Cruiser Yamato (was Re: OLD SF-TV) kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes: >tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) writes: >>>And, while we're on a list of Japanimation, how about: >>> Space Cruiser Yamato (a.k.a. Star Blazers) >>Wasn't this the one where the space ship wants to stop at a planet, >>so it drops an anchor down to the planet? > >No, no, no. You're thinking of CAPTAIN HARLOCK. > >YAMATO was the one where they brought everyone back from the dead >for the last movie, oddly called FINAL YAMATO. Yeah, they find a >cure for radiation death, no matter how many years dead the victim >is! Yeah, but I didn't see that one. They still had an anchor, that they used when they were being blasted in Pluto's orbit. The anchor was attatched to Pluto's moon (interesting that it wasn't discovered until after the series was made) and then got blasted off. Sean Rouse ARPA: cc-30@cory.berkeley.edu UUCP: ucbvax!cory!cc-30 USnail: 2299 Piedmont Ave #315, Berkeley, Ca 94720 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 86 10:16 PDT From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@VERMITHRAX.SCH.Symbolics.COM> Subject: Star Trek Milestone From: SHADOW%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Astronomy Undergraduate) >Did anyone read the Boston Globe Yesterday? (8/16/86) > > 20 years ago, when NBC refused the first pilot for a TV series >called "Star Trek", it's creator later asked (when the series got >off the ground) Paramount Pictures if he could salvage his hard >work and merge the original pilot somehow. I am, of course, >speaking of the only 2-part episode, "The Menagerie", where most of >the footage of the never aired pilot, "The Cage" ended up. >Unfortunaltely, Paramount did not want to pay $200 to make another >print of "The Cage" just to cut up and use in "The Menagerie" and >so, the only copy in existence was spliced, and cut up to fit for >this episode. > About a year ago, Gene Roddenbery (sp?) decided to find all the >frames from "The Cage" and see what he could do with them. It was >a long laborious 'trek' through the film vaults, but he managed to >get all the original film spliced back together, and reprocessed. >(It was severly damaged in sections) A black and white print has >been made, and was premiered for the first time publically at the >New York Museum of Broadcasting, where it will play for the next 2 >months, in celebration of Star Trek's 20th anniversary. Just a >little piece of nostalgia I found noteworthy of relating here. I'd hate to disagree with the Boston Globe, but this is a crock. In 1976, Roddenberry was doing his college tour series and showed up at Rochester Institute of Technology. (This appearance made up part of the Inside Star Trek spoken word album.) His talk included the running of a black and white copy of The Cage. Roddenberry said at the time that, although the pilot was filmed in color, all of the known color copies had been destroyed. So, if they really showed a B&W print at the New York Museum of Broadcasting, it was ten years too late for a premiere. Even a premiere for the second time :-). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Sep 86 13:10 EDT From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: old sci-fi TV... My favorite Jonny Quest episode is the one where they are trapped on a deserted ship in mid-ocean, while they are being hunted down by this hulking horror which resembled the Ymir from the movie "20,000,000 MILES FROM EARTH"...I also liked the one where Race had a dog-fight with this crazed old baron who lived in the mountains and hunted vultures... Anyone living near Scranton, Pa. or having cable access to channel 44 out of that city should check it out Saturday nights - starting at 11:30, they show 3 Star Trek episodes and an Outer Limits, without commercial interruptions... ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 86 19:11:10 GMT From: well!slf@caip.rutgers.edu (Sharon Lynne Fisher) Subject: Re: SF on TV >Barbara Eden played Jeannie. I think she was also in the George >Pal version of _The Seven Faces of Doctor Lao_. I can't think of >anything else related to SF that she's been in at the moment. She was also in a tv movie called The Intruder Within, written by the same guy who wrote the Star Trek episode The Enemy Within. She, along with a bunch of other women, got impregnated by an alien ray or something. She got lots of weird symptoms; for example, she'd drink coffee by the boiling-hot potful. She also started to read a lot for the kid; eventually she got to the point where she could read a book or record by running her hands over it. I forget how it ends except that all the knocked-up women end up together in a field or something. No, it's not GREAT SF, but... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Sep 86 21:13:31 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: old sci-fi shows... > 1) MR. TERRIFIC - Mild-mannered Stanley Beamish (a little guy who I loved this one. If you're going to do a series with a story as silly as this, make it as funny as this. If it wasn't quite "Get Smart", it was still hilarious. There were any number of scenes with "Mr. Terrific" flying by industriously flapping his arms. I also recall a scene in which, to get into a train compartment, he uses his finger as a jigsaw to cut a circular hole in the roof. Utterly ridiculous and very enjoyable. > 6) SPEED RACER - Need I say more? Who could forget the Mach-5? Myself, I preferred "Tom Slick" (part of the gang that included "George of the Jungle" and "Super Chicken"). As with all that collection, including "Rocky and Bullwinkle", the jokes and puns came so fast that you missed half of them if you weren't careful. >Have you checked out Saturday morning cartoons lately? . . . > "Kissyfur" You're not serious!! They don't really have one called that?? Please?? (I'm too cowardly to go and check for myself). Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Sep 86 9:23:26 EDT From: "Daniel P. Dern" <ddern@ccb.bbn.com> Subject: More Old TV SF First, any easy one: ** THE AVENGERS ** Not every episode. But enough. How about the 'shrinking ray' episode? 'Nuff said. And stepping into the wayback machine: * Tom Terrific A very old kids cartoon about TT, who flew in this strange aircraft, could turn into various shapes, had a sidekick named Manfred, and a nemesis named Crabby Appleton. I wish I remembered more. Argueably, I could submit "Bewitched". More definitely, "Francis the Talking Mule" (really a bunch of movies), along with "Mr. Ed". {I'll draw the line before "My Mother The Car".) And what about "My Living Doll", with Julie Newmar as -- you guessed it -- your basic cute female robot. Umm, has anybody mentioned "Time Tunnel" yet. On the subject of good cartoons for kids, I'd trade a few quarts of personal ectoplasm for episodes, or pointers to, "Gerald Mc BoingBoing" [by the Hubbleys, who did some of the Superman animations], or, even more eagerly, anything re "Crusader Rabbit", who preceeded Moose & Squirrel, and got into more cosmic (if less hysterically funny) adventures. Gotta go take them Smurfs out of the blender... ddern@bbn.arpa (@ccb.bbn.com for your domain-style folks) ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 86 19:09:00 GMT From: convex!poole@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: SF on TV Yes I remember TIME TUNNEL. It was one of my favorite shows at the time and I've never seen it in syndication. I remember the episode you're talking about vaguely. It seems that they returned and were not recognized and couldn't get in. That show had some neat stuff in it. Didn't they become lost in time and the guys back at the time tunnel were always sending these brick like objects back to them to bring them back? Remember what that was about? I recall an episode where Darren went back in time and meet himself as a child. Wasn't TIME TUNNEL done by the same people who did VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA? Like I said I haven't seen this show since I was a kid so it's not fresh in my memory. It seems like they were always going back to some big event in history (supposed randomly) and finding that no matter what they did they couldn't change anything. They were it seems supposed to be there at that time doing whatever they were doing. Like the Gary Seven episode on Star Trek. Do you recall THE INVADERS? I liked that show and it's being rerun here in Dallas now on Tuesday nights. I haven't been able to catch it yet but hope to. I found a copy of the book THE INVADERS in a second hand book store in Atlanta years ago. The cover had the INVADERS saucer and claimed to be about the TV-series but that's where the simularities ended. I still found the book enjoyable and have looked for the rest of the series but have yet to see them. Rick Poole Convex Computer Corporation 701 Plano Road Richardson, Texas 75081 214-952-0200 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Sep 86 0952-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #285 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 9 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 285 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (10 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Aug 86 23:39:30 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes: >franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >>Second, picking up your fuel as you go along may well be >>practical. This nullifies the whole calculation. > > I don't deny this possibility, which is why I explicitly stated >that the calculation applies only to ships powered by onboard fuel. >Note, though, that the fuel available to be picked up is hydrogen >and other matter -- since it can only be fused, rather than >converted directly to energy, the efficiency is much lower. I'll >try to do a calculation on the amount of hydrogen that has to be >collected to power such a ship. I suspect it will be impractically >large. Depends on what kind of sources you think are available. If you rely on the general density of interstellar space, you will need a very large collection area to pick enough of it up. I suspect that there may be other bodies between the stars ("Jupiter-like" bodies -- the results of protostars which were too small for fusion to ignite). If these are present with sufficient density, there is no real problem. (I am working on a story based on this idea.) I suspect that 4 L-Y in 10 subjective months is still going to require enough fuel expenditure to be reserved for emergencies with very small craft. Not to mention the accelerations involved -- at least 10 G, I think. (4 L-Y at 1 G takes about 5 years subjective time.) Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 3 Sep 86 09:59:28 GMT From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: Memory and RNA One of the hot theories on neurological memory hardware is that memory is stored using the DNA of the neurons. The DNA is not actually modified, but it is kept in a "wadded-up" state in the nucleus. Repressor molecules hold it in a particular shape, allowing only a particular subset of the DNA to participate in reactions with RNA; the rest is inaccessible. Storing memories consists of a change in repressor molecules. As I recall, repressor molecule activity is stimulated by ACT, which is itself stimulated by caffeine among other things; this provides an explanation for some results that learning accelerates with the use of caffeine. Neural DNA is unique in its configuration, and of course it is not used for cell reproduction. This theory provides the best explanation for these facts to date, though that doesn't mean it's correct. Other recent results seem to demonstrate a connection between memory acquisition and the formation of new synapses. Of course, this is not exclusive of the repressor-molecule theory. I don't know of any respectable theory saying that memory is stored in RNA. However, it would be theoretically possible to tailor RNA molecules that, injected into the central nervous system by some means, would carry out transformations of the neurons in such a way that new memories are acquired without going through the normal learning mechanisms. Whether this would ever be practically possible is unknown. As for the holographic theory, beware of it. It is based on a simplistic analogy between holograms and memory when either is partially damaged. It has no mathematical basis and no real meaning; it is just a somewhat suggestive analogy. Tim Maroney, Electronic Village Idiot {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 06:00:16 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: aliens...original idea? >Does anyone remember a movie called "It! The Terror from Beyond >Space"? I thought of this film the first time I saw 'ALIEN'. >Anyone else remember this gem? I haven't seen it in years SURE I REMEMBER IT AND (sorry, shouting hurts my voice) a lot of people remembered it when ALIEN came out. ALIEN was pretty much a synthesis of PLANET OF THE VAMPIRES (following a rescue beacon, space explorers find a planet in which a giant alien race is all dead... killed by an alien force that goes after the humans) and IT! THE TERROR FROM BEYOND SPACE (an alien in the ducts of a space ship, then dispatched in the same way the alien was in ALIEN). There are also parts of NIGHT OF THE BLOOD BEAST (alien lays its eggs in a man) or Van Vogt's story "Discord in Scarlet" (egg-laying alien on rampage in spaceship). Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 3 Sep 86 18:39:55 GMT From: sdcc12!st94wb@caip.rutgers.edu (wade blomgren) Subject: Re: Aliens (sequel???) I am sure this has been discussed/disproved/etc, but I just have to say it, because I believe it. The key to the next ALIEN(S) film is that Ripley's cat is a carrier of some small yet complex spoor which contains the genetic information required to create a new colony of creatures. Exactly how this will transpire I do not know, but believe it. It's got to happen. I mean, have you thought about how much time the damn feline spent unattended in the first movie? And the look in its eyes. (shudder) Also how about the way the alien in the first movie looked at the cat when it was in the escape pod. Anyway, 'infection' can mean something other than having the egg-pod embryo force it's way down your throat. I just don't trust that cat.:-) Wade .....!sdcsvax!sdcc12!st94wb .....!sdcsvax!net1!wade .....!sdcsvax!sdacs!wade ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Sep 86 15:08:42 EDT From: powelson@harvard.HARVARD.EDU (Larry Powelson) Subject: Aliens and Human Memory Memory is thought to be represented in the pattern of strengths of the connections between neurons in the brain. Exactly how, nobody knows -- evidence came from comparing the brains of rats that grew up in "enriched" environments (with lots of ladders and wheels to play with) and rats that grew up in blank cages. Even if the Aliens knew what top psychologists are cracking their skulls to find out, I'd imagine after sucking the brains out, the original pattern of strengths would be quite difficult to reconstruct. Although I'm no authority on RNA, I thought it only contained "genetic" information, such as eye color, and primitive instincts, and did not change from birth. Thus, it would be impossible for RNA to contain information learned later in life. As for worms learning mazes from eating other worms that have already learned the maze, I would be very interested in reading the write up for that experiment. Larry Powelson powelson@harvard ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 86 23:43:16 GMT From: teddy!svb@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen V. Boyle) Subject: ALIENS - Ripley grabs loader... Someone was recently discussing why Ripley went after mama alien in a loader, instead of grabbing a *real* weapon, which would seem to be readily available. The person who answered made a good point about weapons not necessarily being readliy at hand, even in a troopship or attack craft. (In the military, control of the availability of live weapons is referred to as 'weapons discipline'.) However, I can think of a number of other reasons that could make sense, some within the framework of the movie, some as plot devices to enhance the story. The disadvantages Ripley faced when getting ready to take on the alien were primarily in strength and size (height, reach, etc.). The loader not only offset those disadvantages, but offered the additional desirable feature of being a tool that Ripley was very familiar with, ergo, confidence-building. (i.e., "Leave her alone you BITCH!" - One of the *great* lines in the movie.) Considering the amount of drill she had received with some fairly sophisticated small weapons systems, I think going for the loader was a natural. (Also, as was previously pointed out, it was readily available at a time when availability counted a *lot*.) Personally, the use of the loader made the scene enormously more satisfying to watch. I liked the concept of Ripley going one-on-one with mama, as opposed to just blowing her away. I thought the old 'blow her out the hatch' was a little unimaginative, but what the heck, it gave Bishop the chance to be a hero, thus redeeming 'synthetic persons' to Ripley. A couple of other comments. Whoever wrote the dialog either was a veteran of the military, or had close contact with someone who was. The dialog of the enlisted people rang very true. My nomination for best supporting character would be the Hispanic weapons specialist (Vasquez? I never remember her name.) She was definitely a person who had found their niche in life, and was very satisfied with it. The woman made you believe that she spent her life in search of targets. The scene where she pulled out spare ammo mags for her and her buddy was great. Not to mention the sheer ecstasy on her face when she finally got a chance to open up on something ("Rock and roll!..."). One minor nag, I don't remember anything being said about the weapons ammo other than it being 10mm caseless. Was any mention made of it being incendiary or explosive? It sure seemed to do some significant damage for a little-bitty 0.393" slug. (Yes I know all about the .50 cal. machine gun the U.S. uses, but I defy any normal human to heft one of those and let it rip from the hip!) Waiting eagerly for the sequel, (I couldn't bring myself to write drooling.. :=) Steve Boyle UUCP.teddy!svb {decvax, cbosgd, masscomp, mit-eddie, linus}!teddy!svb GenRad, MS 06, 300 Baker Ave., Concord, MA. 01742 ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 6 Sep 1986 10:37:11-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: ALIENS (one more round) [Round 2] One more reason for not thinking Bishop was a Company rat: Dramatically, it's wrong. The character was set up to be the object of Ripley's prejudice. She wanted nothing to do with him because he was an android and she'd been screwed over royally by an android previously. Bishop was obviously hurt by her reaction, and very naively, with a childlike innocence, couldn't understand why she distrusted him. Finally, Ripley was put in a position where she *had* to trust him, had to trust that he'd not leave her behind to get killed when the atmosphere processor exploded. OK, so she comes back out and finds the ship gone; she realizes that again she's been screwed over. Certainly, that scene was done for reasons of suspense rather than logic, but it made us think for a while that maybe Bishop *was* a rat after all. But then, he reappears with the ship and saves her. He seems genuinely happy when she tells him he "did good". This is not the character of a rat. Writer/director Cameron went to great lengths to make the audience feel about Bishop the way Ripley did --- first distrusting him, then trusting him, then feeling screwed over by him, and finally realizing that he's a good guy after all. To suggest after all this that Bishop is still a rat undoes everything that Cameron (to say nothing of the actor, Lance Henrickson) strived for with the character. And last, but not least, it's nothing but pure bigotry. Just because one android proved to be a rat, does that mean *all* androids have to be suspect, for no other reason than that they're androids? --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 6 Sep 1986 09:51:56-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: ALIENS THEORY > From: Wes Miller <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA> > ...Ripley dumped the queen into space. We know from previous > experience that they can survive in space.... We do? In the first film, the Alien doesn't survive in space much longer (that we know of) than a human being can. It was only a few minutes between the time that Ripley zapped it out the shuttle's airlock and when she burned it with the engines. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 6 Sep 1986 09:55:25-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: ALIEN (singular) From: Wes Miller <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA> > I saw ALIEN the first or second day it came out in Boston. > There was an additional 5 minutes or so of extra film that was cut > out of some of the other versions, including the Laser copy I own. > I positively remember that the exploration scenes on the alien > ship were much longer and I specifically remember seeing the crew > find the beacon. It was located in the wall in the same room where > the dead pilot was and was behind a 'glass' case. The beacon > looked much like a phonograph and I do recall that the crew shut > off the beacon before the incident with the face hugger. Did > anyone else recall this version? Or was it another movie? Well, I saw the film on its first day of release in Boston, and I don't recall such a scene in it, which is not to say that it wasn't there, but just that I don't remember it. I saw the film a few times fairly soon after that too, I'm sure. It's not on the videotape I have, nor is it shown in the ALIEN photonovel. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 86 17:20:34 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Re: Aliens (sequel???) From: sdcc12!st94wb > The key to the next ALIEN(S) film is that Ripley's cat is a > carrier of some small yet complex spoor which contains the genetic > information required to create a new colony of creatures. Exactly > how this will transpire I do not know, but believe it. Sigh. I just don't understand why you believe this to be true. There is no hard evidence to suggest it, and more than enough to discount it. > It's got to happen. Why does it "got to happen"? > I mean, have you thought about how much time the damn feline spent > unattended in the first movie? So the cat ran around unattended for a long time in the first movie. Cats are sneaky and fast. It might well have been able to outrun or hide from the Alien. > And the look in its eyes. (shudder) You obviously haven't looked a cat in the eyes much. Jones didn't look any different than any other cat. > Also how about the way the alien in the first movie looked at the > cat when it was in the escape pod. What about it? It was curious about this small creature that was obviously alive, probably wondering if it'd make a good host. > Anyway, 'infection' can mean something other than having the > egg-pod embryo force it's way down your throat. There's absolutely nothing to suggest that the Alien can infect a victim in any other way than by what we've already seen. > I just don't trust that cat. That's *your* problem. :-) Again, considering all of the time that the cat has spent running around without spewing forth Aliens and dying in the process, I don't think he's about to now. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Sep 86 0831-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #286 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 11 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 286 Today's Topics: Television - Blake's 7 (2 msgs) & Doctor Who & Quark & Star Trek in Strange Places & Superman & Japanese Animation (2 msgs) & More SF on TV (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Sep 86 18:21:23 GMT From: princeton!mjg@caip.rutgers.edu (Mordecai Golin) Subject: Blake's Seven My local public television station just started showing Blake's Seven. What I've seen so far doesn't answer the big questions like: Who is Blake? Why is he running? Who is he running from? ... Also does anyone know whether the show is still being produced or if all I'm seeing are old reruns. Thanks, Mordecai Golin ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 86 20:21:06 GMT From: cc-30@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Yoda: Follower of the Reverend Mother) Subject: Re: Blake's Seven (Spoiler Warning if you've never watched Subject: the show) Blake's Seven is no longer being produced. It lasted for four seasons, with the first two being the best, and the last being the worst. However, this is the first year that it has been shown publicly in the U.S. <SPOILER WARNING (If you have never watched Blake's 7)> Blake: Blake is a criminal. When he was younger, the Federation (who runs most of the galaxy from Earth, sound familiar?) captured him for something (which I can't remember) and interrogated him. He was then placed on board a prison shuttle (in the first episode) to be shipped off to a prison planet. There he meets Avon, a computer expert, Villa, a thief and expert lockpicker, Gann, and Jenna. After trying to stage a coup on board the shuttle, he, Jenna, and Avon are sent as "expendable explorers" on board a mysterious space-ship which the shuttle encounters. The shuttle commander fisrt sent two Fed thugs on board who got zapped. After taking over this new ship, they meet Zen, the ship's computer, who (with the help of Jenna) names the ship "The Liberator". Following the shuttle, Blake and co. rescue Gann and Villa from the prison planet. Then, they all decide to break the oppression of the Federation and assist any planet that is trying to revolt. I think that best sums it up. Hopefuly you're still in the first season, otherwise there are other changes to take place. Sean Rouse ARPA: cc-30@cory.berkeley.edu UUCP: ucbvax!cory!cc-30 USnail: 2299 Piedmont Ave #315, Berkeley, Ca 94720 ------------------------------ Date: Sun 7 Sep 86 00:19:59-PDT From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA> Subject: Dr. Who Roadshow In the NY Times a week back I saw an article about a travelling Dr. Who exhibit (a semi-trailer full of props, costumes, etc.) that had recently been in the NY area-- it sounded like great fun. The article mentioned that the exhibit was travelling around the U.S. Anyone seen this, or have any information on their itinerary? Thanks. Steve Dennett dennett@sri-nic.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Sat 6 Sep 86 12:27:27-PDT From: Lynn Gold <Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA> Subject: Quark From "The Complete Directory of Prime Time Network TV Shows:" QUARK Situation Comedy FIRST TELECAST: February 24, 1978 LAST TELECAST: April 14, 1978 BROADCAST HISTORY: Feb 1978 - Apr 1978, NBC, Fri 8:00-8:30 CAST: Adam Quark.............Richard Benjamin Gene/Jean.................Tim Thomerson Ficus....................Richard Kelton Betty I...............Tricia Barnstable Betty II.................Cyb Barnstable Andy the Robot.............Bobby Porter Otto Palindrome............Conrad Janis The Head...................Alan Caillou Quark was a parody on space adventure epics, which were highly popular at this time due to the success of the movie "Star Wars." The setting was the year 2222 A.D. on the giant space station Perma One, where Adam Quark had been given command of a vital, though not necessarily romantic, mission: to clean up the garbage in outer space. His assignments came from The Head, a disembodied head who governed the universe, and who was seen only on a TV screen; and from Otto Palindrome, the fussy chief architect of Perma One.... ...Though Quark was supposed to stick to his sanitation patrols, he often met adventure with such colorful space denizens as the evil High Gorgon, Zoltar the Magnificent, and ZORGON THE MALEVOLENT. A strange mixture of sex, intellectual jokes, and basic slapstick comedy, QUARK failed to attract a substantial audience and was soon cancelled. Lynn ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 86 10:20:19 GMT From: kevin@cs.hw.AC.UK (Kevin Waugh) Subject: Vulcan greeting in strange places The BBC were showing "Horror at 37,000 feet" late on saturday evening. I would appreciate someone confirming the following observation so that my friends will stop making appointments for me at the opticians, psychiatrists and TV repair shop. In the film an assortment of passengers are trapped aboard a plane which gets stuck at 37,000 feet. William Shatner plays the part of a defrocked priest, who notices that the plane appears not to be moving, he moves away from the window and sits down. NOW, as he is sitting, does the background show one of the other passengers teaching the Vulcan "live long and prosper" salute to a child? Or should I take two or three Star Trek episodes and go to bed until the hallucinations stop? Kevin. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 86 20:42:56 GMT From: wall@boves.dec.com (David F. Wall DTN 297-6882) Subject: SUPERMAN the TV series I'm originally from Rhode Island, and I have heard this rumor from a variety of sources. It isn't true. There are noticeable differences between the top of the Daily Planet building and the top of the building in Providence. As for which building it is, someone told me once it's the City Hall of Los Angeles, but I've never been west of the Mississppi, so I don't know if that's true. David F. Wall Digital Equipment Corporation -- HPSCAD, MArlboro, MA UUCP: ...!{decvax|decuac}!{boves|gaynes}.dec.com!wall or ...!decvax::{boves|gaynes}::wall ARPA: wall%{boves|gaynes}.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 86 22:09:57 GMT From: hutch@volkstation.gwd.tek.com (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Japanese culture as reflected in anime and manga kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes: >jsloan@wright.EDU (John Sloan) writes: >>The "good guys" in Macross seem very western, while the "bad guys" >>seem (at least in the American translation) to embody much of the >>culture of feudal Japan. Do you think Macross is an allegory for >>the infusion, and eventual dominance, of western cultural myths >>over the native Japanese myths? > >This isn't only true of Macross, but of EVERY Japanese animated >I've seen. There has ALWAYS been a tension in Japanese culture between what we could call the Warrior Myth, with its foundations in simplification of Bushido and the Samurai feudal culture, and the "softer" emotions which are by tradition not expressed openly. The story in Macross, even after the Harmony Gold people disrupt the harmony of the story for the sake of the gold they can get out of it, is still a story about how a culture can become decadent and not know it. By becoming exclusively warriors, the Zentraedi have thrown away those things which made their culture worthwhile, even viable. THAT is the fundamental point of the story. Any allegory between Feudal Japan is very weak. You might make a stronger connection between the militaristic ruling clique which held power during WWII and which did not really represent the desires of the people of Japan, and the Zentraedi leaders. However, in the Macross story the Zentraedi warriors engage in what could be called a mass revolt, when exposed to those elements of a larger culture which they lack. This is maybe an idealized dream, and if you want to put some sort of racial-guilt allegory in here, it would be that the animators, as representatives of the "enlightened" society, feel that their WWII leaders might have changed their ways if they had really understood other societies. But that is also a fairly weak allegory. >The "good guys" aren't all Western: I seem to remember an uncle >(father?) of Minmei's that was Japanese, and the doctor on Cpt. >Harlock's ship is, also. (BTW, see how they portray Japanese? >Short, fat, balding, eyes set to either side of their _nostrils_, >pug noses, etc.? What kind of self- image do these people have?) Don't jump to conclusions. Study first. Then jump to conclusions. There are basically two races in Japan. I will ignore the Ainu here because I don't clearly recall how they fit in to this. However, the Samurai were taller, fairer-skinned, and spoke a rather different language than the peasants. The peasants tended to be short, fat, with squashed features. Rather similar in some respects to the Okinawan peoples. Anyway, the ancient tradition in Japanese arts has short, fat, exaggerated features being part of a "humorous, earthy" character. While it is permissible to give such a character noble traits, the main purpose of such characters is to serve as comic relief. Similarly, the noble-featured, large-eyed, light-skinned tall slender figure represents the Samurai type. While it is permissible and even common to have fatal character flaws in this type, the hero is always one of this type. Even in some of the more free-form comic-strip type manga, some characters will change appearance somewhat based on their role, being drawn taller and thinner and more noble when they engage in a pure and selfless act. And please don't go on about John Wayne movies until you've seen a few Kurosawa films, and maybe a Zatoichi or two, then you'll lose the ethnocentric idea that the romantic, handsome, stalwart hero is an American invention. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 86 16:32:35 GMT From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory? kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes: >jsloan@wright.EDU (John Sloan) writes: >>The "good guys" in Macross seem very western, while the "bad guys" >>seem (at least in the American translation) to embody much of the >>culture of feudal Japan. [...] > >The "good guys" aren't all Western: I seem to remember an uncle >(father?) of Minmei's that was Japanese, and the doctor on Cpt. >Harlock's ship is, also. (BTW, see how they portray Japanese? >Short, fat, balding, eyes set to either side of their _nostrils_, >pug noses, etc.? What kind of self- image do these people have?) Hmmm. I'm afraid I had a different opinion of the Japanese cartoons. I haven't seen Macross yet, but have seen the Japanese language art book (cell book?) from this series and Robotech, and have caught a couple of episodes of Space Cruiser Yamato. I always felt that I was seeing Japanese people in these adventures. I think it was the large eyes or the tendency toward compact body structure. (And beautiful women in short skirts... ahem. excuse me.) Sure, there is the occasional stereotypical character that's played for laughs, but I think you're putting the wrong interpretation on that. I think they're poking fun at an element in their own culture, sure, but I can't believe that all (or most) Japanese see themselves in this stereotype. Ack, I have a meeting. Quickly: I am impressed by the stress on duty and self sacrifice in Robotech and Yamato. These are part of Japanese culture, not something imported from the west. There's more, but I have to go... Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: FRIDAY 09/05/86 15:24:07 PST From: 7GMADISO <7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> Subject: Re: SF Televison Ark II: One of my Saturday Morning favorites. I was SO glad that there was finally something on Saturday Morning that wasn't animated. Athough it was aimed at kids, it didn't talk down to them. Space Academy: Yes, Jonathan Harris played Commander Gampu, the head of the Space Academy. All of the cadets were there because of some kind of special ability; Adrienne was a math whiz, for example. Jason Of Star Command: As far as I was concerned, a BAD ripoff of SA. I have to admit that the StarFire spaceships were more attractive than the Seekers, but it struck me as peculiar that the SEEKERS were the only ships that were armed, when the StarFires were supposedly the 'fighter' model. Lost Saucer: WIth Jim Nabors and Ruth Buzzi, how can you go wrong?? This was frequently hysterical. Electrawoman and Dynagirl: The *ONLY* show I've ever seen that successfully out-camps BATMAN. Also of note: Diedre Hall, who is now on the soap 'Days Of Our Lives' played Electrawoman. Web Woman: An infrequently seen segment from the 'Tarzan and the Super Seven' show which had some incredible space perspective animation, despite the overall poor animation. Star Trek: I can't BELIEVE that no one has mentioned the Animated Star Trek. Although the overall quality was probably less than the original (probably because of 1/2 the time for story development), individual episodes like 'Yesteryear' and 'Slaver Weapon' (which was adapted from Larry Niven's short story 'The Soft Weapon') were excellent. Land Of The Lost: Occasionally brilliant. Occasionally dreck. The Young Sentinels: Animated series about a trio of Guardians who happen to be the Greek Heroes Hercules, Mercury and Astraea, who 'watch over the human race, helping the good in it to survive and flourish' with the help of their computer, Sentinel One. Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors: This is a current one, with some great computer-assist animation. It's being marketed to DEATH, but it's worth checking out. Thundercats: Same comments as above; I think I like the Thundercats better, though. Lidsville, Sigmund & The Sea Monsters, et. al.: Sid & Marty Krofft were the kings of KidVid for a while with their silly but enjoyable shows. Others included the Far Out Space Nuts (with Chuck McCann and Bob Denver), and WonderBug. They also did the Electrawoman and Dynagirl show mentioned above. The Tomorrow People: A British import, and probably the best show on my list here. Excellent production and stories. This has been a real walk down memory lane for me. If anyone wants to discuss any of these or other shows direct, my BITNET address is 7GMADISO at POMONA. Sorry, but we aren't on any other nets. George Madison ------------------------------ Date: FRIDAY 09/05/86 15:49:42 PST From: 7GMADISO <7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> Subject: Re: Television Oh, BTW, I have the themesongs/opening narration for many of the above shows (and many more) on audio tape, if anyone's interested. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 86 15:28:44 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: SF on TV From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM (Marina Fournier) > I also remember a Gerry Anderson Puppetmation show from the early > '60's (before we moved to Albuquerque in autumn '65), with an > underwater woman/mermaid who couldn't speak. Her name was Marina, > and I think it's my first memory of that name. What was the name > of that series? Was it Fireball XL5? Somehow that doesn't feel > right. No, it was STINGRAY. FIREBALL XL-5 was yet another Gerry Anderson *marion*ation show about a spaceship piloted by Steve Zodiac, with his faithful companions Venus and Dr. Matthew Matic. From: sci!daver (David Rickel) > I seem to remember that Tom Corbett was one of three SF soaps > playing (live action, every day for half an hour. kind of limits > your special effects). Another was Cptn Video and the Video > Rangers. Does anyone remember the other one? SPACE PATROL. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Sep 86 0853-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #287 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 11 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 287 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Clarke & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Vance & Baen Books & Story Search ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 7 Sep 86 13:30:31 EDT From: Robert L. Krawitz <rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU> To: unc!melnick@caip.rutgers.edu (Alex Melnick) Subject: Re: R. Daneel Olivaw From: unc!melnick@caip.rutgers.edu (Alex Melnick) >From: Garrett Fitzgerald >>I think that R. Daneel was the one who removed all references to >>EARTH from the Galactic Library on Trantor. Anybody agree? >No, no, no. Go back and re-read *The Robots of Dawn* (or whatever >it's called) again. It's R. Giskard (the supposedly inferior robot >who can read minds and has the capability of independent >action/thought) who is plotting to guide the future of mankind, not >R. Daneel, who is really not an unusually impressive robot, aside >from his physical appearance. I think Asimov is planning to try >tying all his future histories together (a la Heinlein or Niven) >with a direct link between the Susan Calvin stories, the Lije >Bailey/R. Daneel stories, and the Foundation stories. Certainly >such a link is suggested in *Robots of Dawn* and hinted at in >*Foundation's Edge*. Personally, I don't think he should bother. >There's something about having all the corners tucked in, with >everything tied together and all the details accounted for, which >is very unappealing to me, and I would hope that Asimov could >resist the temptation. Nope. **Spoiler-Warning** Read the end of Robots and Empire (I had a friend over who spent the whole night reading the book. He figured about ten pages before the end that he knew what was about to happen, so he stopped reading because he wanted to eat breakfast. His guess, needless to say, was wildly off). Remember that Giskard teaches Daneel how to read minds, and that the process isn't all that difficult. Daneel is inherently a superior robot to Giskard, but Giskard had a little "accident" at the hands of Fastolfe's (?) daughter which left him with the ability to read minds. Daneel is the only (known) all-purpose, humanoid robot left by Robots and Empire. Giskard's capability for independent action is no greater than Daneel's. In fact, I believe that it was Daneel who formulated the Zeroth Law; Giskard couldn't grok it quite well enough to save himself at the very end. **Spoiler-Warning off** The combination of Robots and Empire and Foundation's Edge leaves some truly spectacular possibilities open. To quit now would be a REAL pity. If the next book is really written all-out, it could be the best book in the entire meta-series. Robert ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 86 17:09:25 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: SF as propaganda > mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) > By the same token, a lot of people, particularly children at > various stages of life, simply aren't prepared to approach these > books with the proper sort of critical attitude. Back when I was > in 6th grade and picked up a few Heinleins, I simply did not > appreciate the casual racism and often sexism that permeates much > of his writing. If I had kids now at the same age, I believe I > would discourage them from reading a lot of the same books, > because they would be most unlikely to be able to evaluate what > they were reading and reject what was racist or sexist in the > writing. So in that sense there is some purpose for review > boards, as long as their purpose is not intellectual purity. I have two problems with this. First, I consider it a vast and misleading oversimplification to accuse Heinlein of promoting "sexism" in his work, and perhaps even more so "racism". Yes, some people find Heinlein racist. But some find _Huckleberry_Finn_ racist, and with just about as much cause. Second, I am dismayed at the general attitude that seems to be behind this justification for widespread censorship (watered down, perhaps, but censorship nevertheless). "Well, you see, *I* can take it, *I* can separate propaganda from truth, sexism from liberalism, *I* can see the Truth. But we better protect all these poor, ignorant persons... *they* might not be able to tell sexism from a hole in the ground." I find this paternalistic attitude abhorrent, and it seems to me that it is prelude to some of the worst forms of repression found in history. "My slaves wouldn't know what to do if they were free." "Those poor ignorant Hawaiians... we *must* bring them The Word (and sugar plantations and VD...)." And virtually endless other examples. The repression is often not obviously or directly a result of the paternalism, but it nearly always accompanies it. Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 86 00:08:54 GMT From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb Because you demanded it, pilgrim, herewith the quotes proving Heinlein's support for nuclear war. These are taken from "Ghastly Beyond Belief", an anthology of bad and embarrassing science fiction excerpts. First, from "Pie in the Sky": There are so many, many things in this so-termed civilization of ours which would be mightily improved by a once over lightly of the Hiroshima treatment. Next, a typically didactic Heinlein monologue from "Farnham's Freehold", a post-holocaust novel of which Michael Moorcock wrote in the critical/political essay "Starship Stormtroopers", "It's not such a big step ... from *Farnham's Freehold* to Hitler's *Lebensraum*." Heinlein expounds on the wondrous improvements in America created by letting man's friend, Mr. Nucleus, have his way despite all this loose talk about the death of the planet. You may ignore the woman; she is merely a device to draw out the hero's brilliant remarks and finally to agree with him, showing that even nature's dumbest creature - a woman - must realize the truth of his statements. He frowned. "Barbara, I'm not as sad over what has happened as you are. It might be be good for us. I don't mean us six; I mean our country." She looked startled. "How?" "Well - it's hard to take the long view when you are crouching in a shelter and wondering how long you can hold out. But - Barbara, I've worried for years about our country. It seems to me that we have been breeding slaves - and I believe in freedom. This war may have turned the tide. This may be the first war in history which kills the stupid rather than the bright and able - where it makes any distinction." "How do you figure that, Hugh?" "Well, wars have always been hardest on the best young men. This time the boys in the service are as safe or safer than civilians. And of civilians those who used their heads and made preparations stand a far better chance. Not every case, but on the average, and that will improve the breed. When it's over, things will be tough, and that will improve the breed still more. For years the surest way of surviving has been to be utterly worthless and breed a lot of worthless kids. All that will change." She nodded thoughtfully. "That's standard genetics. But it seems cruel." "It *is* cruel. But no government has yet been able to repeal natural laws, though they keep trying." She shivered in spite of the heat. "I suppose you're right. No, I *know* you're right." To the reader who said that he had read this novel many times without seeing any passage in favor of nuclear war, we award the 1986 Zinc Star for fearless and incisive critical comment. Well done, well done, noble sir! Tim Maroney {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 86 03:19:18 GMT From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes: >Because you demanded it, pilgrim, herewith the quotes proving >Heinlein's support for nuclear war. This is followed by an extended dialogue in which one of Heinlein's characters notes that certain positive consequences might ensue from a nuclear war. Even if you take this as Heinlein's own opinion, it is vastly different from *supporting* nuclear war. I can note that Nazi rule had certain favorable consequences for 1930s Germany (e.g., it certainly get them out of their depression, and built them into a world power in an extremely short time). Does this mean that I *support* Nazi government. The only person I can think of who might say that is... >Michael Moorcock [,who] wrote in the critical/political essay >"Starship Stormtroopers", "It's not such a big step ... from >*Farnham's Freehold* to Hitler's *Lebensraum*." This seems a far greater overstatement of the truth than anything Heinlein might have said. Can we say the same for histories of the Third Reich, if they describe the increase in economic growth and stability in the late 1930s? David desJardins ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Sep 86 10:46:46 cet From: ESG7%DFVLROP1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Revised table on the writings of Jack Vance The Science Fiction Writings of Jack Vance by Gary A. Allen, Jr. Several weeks ago I posted a table on the works of Jack Vance and included some ratings. This table had omissions which were pointed out by the readers of SF-LOVERS. This new table represents a (hopefully) complete listing of Vance's Science Fiction writings. Vance has also written mystery novels but these are not listed. _TITLE _DATE_PUBLISHED _RATING (0-10, 10 = best) (* = Not rated) The Five Gold Bands 1953 3 To Live Forever 1956 7 The Languages of Pao 1957 8 Slaves of the Klau 1953 * The Dragon Masters 1963 9 Future Tense 1964 * The Houses of Iszim 1964 8 Son of the Tree 1964 7 Monsters in Orbit 1965 * Space Opera 1965 5 The Blue World 1966 9 The Brains of Earth 1966 * The Complete Magnus Ridolph 1966 4 Eight Fantasms and Magics 1969 * Emphyrio 1970 9 Vandals of the Void 1970 * The Gray Prince 1974 5 Galactic Effectuator 1976 6 Maske: Thaery 1976 8 Best of Jack Vance 1976 * Green Magic 1979 * The Last Castle 1980 10 Big Planet Series Big Planet 1952 * Show Boat World 1975 9 The Alastor Series Trullion: Alastor 2262 1973 8 Marune: Alastor 933 1975 7 Wyst: Alastor 1716 1978 6 The Durdane Trilogy The Faceless Man (The Anome) 1973 9 The Brave Free Men 1973 7 The Asutra 1974 7 The Demon Prince Series Star King 1964 8 The Killing Machine 1964 8 The Palace of Love 1967 6 The Face 1979 8 The Book of Dreams 1981 7 The Tschai (Planet of Adventure) Series City of the Chasch 1968 9 Servants of the Wankh 1969 8 The Dirdir 1969 10 The Pnume 1970 9 The Dying Earth Series The Dying Earth 1950 9 The Eyes of the Overworld 1966 10 Cugel's Saga 1983 9 Rhialto the Marvellous 1984 10 The Lyonesse Series Lyonesse I: Suldren's Garden 1983 0 Lyonesse II: The Green Pearl 1985 * On the rating system used a 6 or better is recommended. Works with a 10 either received a Hugo/Nebula or should have. ALL of Jack Vance's works including _Lyonesse_ are better than 99.9% of what one would typically find for sale as Science Fiction. Short Story Collections (none of which that I have read) Dust of Far Suns (DAW paperback) The Narrow Land (DAW paperback) The World Between and Other Stories (Ace paperback) The Worlds of Jack Vance (Ace paperback) Nopalgarth (DAW paperback) Green Magic (Underwood-Miller) The Augmented Agent (Underwood-Miller) The Dark Side of the Moon (Underwood-Miller) Lost Moons (Underwood-Miller) Prizes Won by Jack Vance 1958 nominated for the Hugo _The_Miracle-Workers 1962 BEST NOVELLA Hugo _The_Dragon_Masters 1966 BEST NOVELLA Hugo and Nebula _The_Last_Castle 1973 nominated for the Nebula _Rumfuddle 1974 nominated for the Hugo _Assault_on_a_City 1985 nominated for the Nebula _Rhialto_the_Marvellous "The Moon Moth" was placed in the _SF_Hall_of_Fames, Vol 1, by SFWA. First edition hardbound books printed on acid free paper with high quality bindings which are authored by Jack Vance can be purchased from the following publisher: Underwood-Miller 651 Chestnut Street Columbia, PA 17512-1233 ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 1986 19:01:18 PDT Subject: Baen Book Club Update From: Tom Galloway <GALLOWAY@B.ISI.EDU> I talked to several people at Worldcon and after about this. The situation may or may not be resolved at this point. Betsy Mitchell, a Baen editor, told me and at least one Baen author that the current deal on the book club is that it has around 150-200 members, with about 20 from California. The club will cut off membership at 250. Also, the discount has been lowered from 50% to, I believe, 30%, and will eventually be lowered to 20% after about a year (I don't claim accuracy on the numbers, except for the 250 and the 20, but this is the general gist of it). On the other hand, Sherry Gotlieb, owner of the Change of Hobbit, has told me that she plans to continue her boycott since neither she nor her distributor has received any official written notice of this change in policy. There are also problems with the book club notices being undated, and books could conceivably be available with the notice for several years. There was a rumor that some booksellers were requesting that all such ads be hand stamped with a "no longer available" notice. It also is rumored that a lot of this has turned into a personality clash among several people. So the book club may or may not be a past issue, but at least one store is still boycotting Baen. tyg ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 7 Sep 1986 21:37-EDT From: jmturn%ringwld.UUCP@CCA.CCA.COM Subject: Story Searches A friend of mine has been searching for the following book for years, and now turns to the assembled might of the SFL collective intelligence to help him. The story is a space opera, concerning a young man who gathers a force to topple ancient (but not by default evil) rulers of the galaxy and their minions. It is pre-1965, and the author's name or psuedonym is probably early in the alphabet. He read it first in hardcover. Some specific scenes: A large ship with a very large model of the galaxy that the hero could light up is described in great detail. There are many space battles with englobments and such. At one point, our hero impresses a bunch of locals on a planet by riding down his spaceship ramp upon a horse. It is Not "Tarrano the Conquerer", or "The Hour of the Hoard", or anything by Heinlein, Clarke, Asimov, Anderson, Clement, Chandler, or Cambell. He is also looking for an short stories in which Leonardi di Vinci figures. Replies to me directly... James Turner ARPA:ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA UUCP: {decvax|sri-unix|ima|linus}!cca!ringwld!jmturn MAIL 329 Ward Street; Newton, MA 02159 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Sep 86 0909-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #288 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 11 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 288 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Saturday, 6 Sep 1986 10:08:24-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: ALIENS (Why didn't Ripley nuke the ship?) From: SHADOW%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Astronomy Undergraduate) > What this boils down to is this: Ripley did not nuke the original > site because 1) She was too occupied with saving her own skin, and > 2) She did not expect that the company would be so idiotic as to > set a colony up on that planet once they had seen her report. I think you're confused here. The question was why didn't she nuke the derelict in the *sequel*, not the original film. Possible answers are: (1) Who's to say that she didn't, just because we didn't see it? (2) She didn't have the knowledge or authority to use the nukes on the Sulaco. Perhaps even Bishop and Hicks didn't know, either. After all, Gorman was still alive when they made the suggestion in the first place. He might have been the one to do it. And besides, as regards the first film, the Nostromo was a commercial ship, not a military one. Why assume that she had any tactical or strategic nukes at all? It was the engines that exploded, not nuclear weapons. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 86 14:38:21 GMT From: watdragon!jsgray@caip.rutgers.edu (Jan Gray) Subject: Re: ALIENS THEORY From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) > From: Wes Miller <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA> >> ...Ripley dumped the queen into space. We know from previous >> experience that they can survive in space.... > >We do? In the first film, the Alien doesn't survive in space >much longer (that we know of) than a human being can. It was >only a few minutes between the time that Ripley zapped it >out the shuttle's airlock and when she burned it with the >engines. We do. The queen hid in the structure of the troop ship, and survived the vacuum of space on the trip to the mother ship. Jan Gray jsgray@watdragon University of Waterloo 519-885-1211 x3870 ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 86 05:19:18 GMT From: cec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: ALIENS wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA writes: > I saw ALIEN the first or second day it came out in Boston. >There was an additional 5 minutes or so of extra film that was cut >out of some of the other versions, including the Laser copy I own. >I positively remember that the exploration scenes on the alien ship >were much longer and I specifically remember seeing the crew find >the beacon. It was located in the wall in the same room where the >dead pilot was and was behind a 'glass' case. The beacon looked >much like a phonograph and I do recall that the crew shut off the >beacon before the incident with the face hugger. Did anyone else >recall this version? Or was it another movie? Someone else cited this version when asserting (during discussion of the beacon a few weeks back) that the _Nostromo_ people turned off the beacon. Oddly, that scene didn't even make it to the novelization, unlike others that were cut from the final screen version. dml@loral.UUCP (Dave Lewis) writes: [a lot of good stuff, to which I want to add just a couple of things:] >Side note: Spent magazines are probably disposable. Saves time in >combat, and since caseless ammo can't be stuffed into the magazine >by hand would probably be cheaper than transporting a loading >machine on the ship. In the novelization, when Hicks is teaching Ripley about the pulse-rifle, he says when changing magazines: "Usually we're required to recover the used ones: they're expensive. I wouldn't worry about following regs just now." >Why Ripley uses a power-loader in her battle with the Alien-Queen: >It's the only thing she can get her hands on. Remember, the Sulaco >is an interstellar troopship, not a battlecraft. I would not expect >to find personal small arms anywhere but on board the landing >craft. Even if there were one or more small-arms lockers in the >ship itself: > 1. Would there be one close to the hangar deck? Time is critical. > 2. Would Ripley know where it is? > 3. Would she be authorized to open it -- have the > key/combination/access code required? I don't think so. I think > only the Lieutenant, the Sergeant, Bishop, Hicks and Vasquez > would be so authorized. >So, the only guns available to Ripley are on board the lander, and >the Queen is in the way. Ripley is forced to improvise with the >power-loader. I was surprised you missed this, since you got it with respect to the other movie: if she did get a pulse-rifle and blow Regina away, her blood would trash the ship's hull and the hyperdrive circuitry in it, not to mention exposing the bay to vacuum in a way that can't be conveniently closed, like the airlock. >Incredibly stupid blunder: Ripley goes into the Alien nest WITHOUT >SPARE MAGAZINES FOR THE M-41A! NO-body that stupid could live to >adulthood. I was going to say that she couldn't because there weren't any on the lander, that she was still limited to the ammo they'd saved from the APC. I realized that was wrong, though, when I remembered that the clip she did have in the gun read full at first, while the four clips they saved from the wreck were only half full. So yes, the lander did have ammo that she could grab--that's probably where the flares and grenades came from, too. Still, it's possible to make a lot of little nitpicks like this--for example, I wondered why she didn't take a motion sensor down with her, so she would know exactly where the bugs were instead of wasting time carefully napalming around every corner? Why did she chuck the whole bandolier of grenades into the fire, when if she'd used them a little more sparingly she could have blown Regina up when she was coming up in the other lift? But considering the amount of time Ripley had to plan, and the amount of hardware she had already loaded herself down with, I would really classify these as minor nitpicks rather than incredibly stupid blunders. >Alien origin: I agree with the posters who think Aliens are >genetically engineered weapons. [etc.] Thank you. The question remains, though, who engineered them? According to the novelization of the first movie, the beacon's message indicated that the ship in which the eggs were found was not carrying them, but rather discovered the aliens already on LV-426. (Though Ripley seems sure, when being grilled by Company brass, that the bugs aren't indigenous to that planet. Lots of little inconsistencies between the two novels, though the movies themselves are quite compatible.) There's the potential for a sequel or two without stagnating, perhaps: we discover the species that designed the bugs, and try to treat with them--or perhaps find that they are being overrun by their own creation, or . . . svb@teddy.UUCP (Stephen V. Boyle) writes: >One minor nag, I don't remember anything being said about the >weapons ammo other than it being 10mm caseless. Was any mention >made of it being incendiary or explosive? It sure seemed to do some >significant damage for a little-bitty 0.393" slug. Yes, the pulse-rifle shells were explosive. Notice that the shotgun was used when actually in an alien mouth, and that it took multiple shots from Vasquez' and Gorman's handguns to do much more than tickle the aliens. pH ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 86 21:34:31 GMT From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: ALIENS - Ripley grabs loader... svb@teddy.UUCP (Stephen V. Boyle) writes: >One minor nag, I don't remember anything being said about the >weapons ammo other than it being 10mm caseless. Was any mention >made of it being incendiary or explosive? It sure seemed to do some >significant damage for a little-bitty 0.393" slug. (Yes I know all >about the .50 cal. machine gun the U.S. uses, but I defy any normal >human to heft one of those and let it rip from the hip!) And this is only a minor quibble (I guess I'm going to have to see the movie,) but it's pretty much SOP for someone to fire the conventional machine gun from the hip. I *think* the USA has gone over to 9mm to fit with NATO standard, but the difference is small. In fact, ten years ago, it was standard procedure as a demo in basic training to fire a machine gun from the shoulder, from the hip, and holding the weapon on a particularly sensitive area of the (male at least) anatomy that lies between navel and knees. This was supposed to remind you that the recoil was nothing to be worried about. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 86 20:08:34 GMT From: teddy!svb@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen V. Boyle) Subject: Re: ALIENS - Ripley grabs loader... crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) writes: >And this is only a minor quibble (I guess I'm going to have to see >the movie,) but it's pretty much SOP for someone to fire the >conventional machine gun from the hip. I *think* the USA has gone >over to 9mm to fit with NATO standard, but the difference is small. > >In fact, ten years ago, it was standard procedure as a demo in >basic training to fire a machine gun from the shoulder, from the >hip, and holding the weapon on a particularly sensitive area of the >(male at least) anatomy that lies between navel and knees. This >was supposed to remind you that the recoil was nothing to be >worried about. The comments about recoil could apply for an M-16, (.223), but definitely *not* for an M-60, or a Thompson (.308 NATO and .45ACP respectively). I certainly wouldn't want to be the one holding the butt of either of the last two against my groin and pulling the trigger. The recoil of either a .308 or a .45 is not enormous, and is pretty easily handled, but it isn't as non-existent as I would want it to be to try the above exercise! My comment was on the apparent in- consistency, (or my lack of understanding) regarding the use and effects of what appeared to be a medium-power small arm. The US has not switched to 9mm except for the new sidearm (as you mentioned, this is for NATO compatability). I do not know of any full-auto weapons in the *current* US arsenal that are 9mm. Most of the new ones are 5.56mm (.223 cal.). ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 86 16:06:55 GMT From: yetti!oz@caip.rutgers.edu (Ozan Yigit) Subject: Re: ALIENS THEORY jsgray@watdragon.UUCP (Jan Gray) writes: >We do. The queen hid in the structure of the troop ship, and >survived the vacuum of space on the trip to the mother ship. Hmm. Maybe not. In my second viewing, I noticed that the queen was actually hiding *inside* the landing leg cavity. And also, if we can suspend our belief long enough to accept that a several-ton-heavy queen hanging off Ripley's leg for several seconds under extreme air pressure without tearing her apart, than we can assume that the landing feet cavities are not exposed to vacuum, thus queen survives. oz Usenet: [decvax|ihnp4]!utzoo!yetti!oz Bitnet: oz@[yusol|yuyetti].BITNET Phonet: [416] 736-5053 x 3976 ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 86 19:22:08 GMT From: umcp-cs!tewok@caip.rutgers.edu (Uncle Wayne) Subject: Re: ALIENS - Ripley grabs loader... svb@teddy.UUCP (Stephen V. Boyle) writes: >A couple of other comments. Whoever wrote the dialog either was a >veteran of the military, or had close contact with someone who was. >The dialog of the enlisted people rang very true. My nomination for >best supporting character would be the Hispanic weapons specialist >(Vasquez? I never remember her name.) She was definitely a person >who had found their niche in life, and was very satisfied with it. >The woman made you believe that she spent her life in search of >targets. The scene where she pulled out spare ammo mags for her and >her buddy was great. Not to mention the sheer ecstasy on her face >when she finally got a chance to open up on something ("Rock and >roll!..."). Several weeks ago, U.S.A. Today had an interview with Vasquez (whatever her name is). I didn't read it, but I was told she went in for her audition thinking it was a movie about illegal immigration. In a way, I guess you could say it was :-) I agree with Stephen's nomination. I thought she was a really great character and I was sorry to see her killed off. Wayne Morrison Parallel Computation Lab University of Maryland ARPA: tewok@brillig UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!tewok (301)454-7690 ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 86 00:01:30 GMT From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (T Cox) Subject: In ALIENS, Bishop as the Company rat When watching AlienS, I and my date both immediately assumed that Bishop had, while away from the platform w/ the injured Marine, impregnated said Marine w/ an Alien. As my date put it, "He was out of our sight. That's enough." From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) >One more reason for not thinking Bishop was a Company rat: > >Dramatically, it's wrong. The character was set up to be the object >of Ripley's prejudice. She wanted nothing to do with him because he >was an android and she'd been screwed over royally by an android >previously. Bishop was obviously hurt by her reaction, and very >naively, with a childlike innocence, couldn't understand why she >distrusted him. An excellent point, but I disagree. I think it would be dramatically more powerful to have Bishop be a nice guy with a "dramatic flaw" -- in the form of company counterprogramming. He's caught between wanting to stand by his fellows and having to try to bring back an Alien. Perhaps he's a backup to the Yuppie From Hell, who's the primary person charged w/ bringing one back. [Or perhaps I'm full of cornflakes on this one.] >Finally, Ripley was put in a position where she *had* to trust him, >had to trust that he'd not leave her behind to get killed when the >atmosphere processor exploded. OK, so she comes back out and finds >the ship gone; she realizes that again she's been screwed over. >Certainly, that scene was done for reasons of suspense rather than >logic, but it made us think for a while that maybe Bishop *was* a >rat after all. But then, he reappears with the ship and saves her. >He seems genuinely happy when she tells him he "did good". Or else he has discharged his counterprogramming and can now go back to fulfill his original programming of being a good Marine. > [stuff deleted] And last, but not least, it's nothing but pure >bigotry. Just because one android proved to be a rat, does that >mean *all* androids have to be suspect, for no other reason than >that they're androids? This is an excellent point. While I like to think that mine is somehow more elegant, I think JMB's reading is more likely to be 'true' [we'll see w/ the sequel, I hope] simply because it's less, shall I say, convoluted. Thomas Cox ...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 86 19:31:40 GMT From: voder!kevin@caip.rutgers.edu (The Last Bugfighter) Subject: Re: ALIENS THEORY oz@yetti.UUCP (Ozan Yigit) writes: >Hmm. Maybe not. In my second viewing, I noticed that the queen was >actually hiding *inside* the landing leg cavity. And also, if we >can suspend our belief long enough to accept that a >several-ton-heavy queen hanging off ripley's leg for several >seconds under extreme air pressure without tearing her apart, than >we can assume that the landing feet cavities are not exposed to >vacuum, thus queen survives. Another possibility is that due to the exoskeleton construction of the aliens that they may be able to pull or tighten their exterior together and efectively seal all joints. Not enough to survive in a vacuum indefinitely (which means the alien Ripley ejected in the first movie isn't still floating around) but enough to make the trip to the shuttle. Kevin Thompson {ucbvax,pyramid,nsc}!voder!kevin ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Sep 86 0958-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #289 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 11 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 289 Today's Topics: Television - The Champions (2 msgs) & It's About Time & I Dream of Jeannie (3 msgs) & Star Maidens & Star Trek & Superman & Captain Video & Doctor Who (3 msgs) & Japanese Animation (2 msgs) & More Sf TV (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Sep 86 13:55:14 GMT From: adt@ukc.ac.uk (A.D.Thomas) Subject: The Champions Someone was asking a while back about a series called The Champions. This was about two men and a woman who had been given enhanced powers after an air crash in the Himalayas. The actress's name was Alexandra Bastidot (sp?) but I can't remember the actors', although they were quite well known. The organisation they worked for was called Nemesis and was based in Geneva, hence the view of Lake Geneva and its fountain at the beginning of the show. Hope this answers a few questions. Tony Thomas adt@ukc.ac.uk University of Kent, Canterbury, Kent, England. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 86 12:01:02 GMT From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin) Subject: Re: The Champions TV series From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> >>The Champions, a British SF. They had super strength and a sort >>of telepathy and precognition. I think it only lasted one season. >>The show started with a shot of this huge fountain. Why, I don't >>know. > >I seem to recall the complement being: one British man, one British >woman, and one American man. Weren't there also other series that >had the formula of international and gender mixes? > >Now, for a blind guess: did Annette Andre play the woman? The woman was played by Alexandra Basteado (sp?). I think the British actor's name was William Gaunt, but I can't remember the other guy's name. I seem to remember more than one series worth of episodes, but I'm not sure on that either Some episodes were repeated on British ITV earlier this year, which is how I remember this - I was only about 7 when the show was first shown!!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 86 12:55 PDT From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@VERMITHRAX.SCH.Symbolics.COM> Subject: SF TV shows From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@labs-b.bbn.com> >>Finally, I recall the title music to an SF show, but I'm pretty >>sure I never watched it. The opening was animated, and there was a >>gorilla or monkey in it somehow. The first bit of the opening is: >> >> It's about time >> It's about space >> It's about men from the human race > >The lyrics are from the title tune for IT'S ABOUT TIME, but my own >dim recollection is that the third line is It's about two men in the craziest place. From my own memory: It's about time. It's about space. It's about two men in the strangest place. It's about time. It's about flight. Traveling faster than the speed of light. Here is their tale Of the great crew As through the barrier of time they flew. Past the fighting Minuteman, Past the armored knight, Past the Roman warrior To this ancient site. It's about caves. Cavemen too. About a time when the Earth was new. Wait'll they see What's in sight. Is it good luck or is it Good Night? It's about two astronauts. It's about their fate. It's about a woman and her prehistoric mate. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 86 21:51:53 GMT From: chapman@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: SF on TV barton@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU writes: >Barbara Eden was Jeannie...Larry Hagman (J.R. Ewing of Dallas fame) >was her master. I seem to remember there being _two_ actors who played the role of the Air Force officer (astronaut) who was Jeannie's master. One was indeed Larry Hagman. Can anyone remember who the other was? Or what the character's name was? Brent Chapman chapman@cory.berkeley.edu ucbvax!cory!chapman ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 86 17:07:00 GMT From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: SF on TV chapman@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Brent Chapman) writes: >barton@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU writes: >>Barbara Eden was Jeannie...Larry Hagman (J.R. Ewing of Dallas >>fame) was her master. >I seem to remember there being _two_ actors who played the role of >the Air Force officer (astronaut) who was Jeannie's master. One >was indeed Larry Hagman. Can anyone remember who the other was? >Or what the character's name was? You're mistaken. Despite obvious desires to the contrary, Bill Daily (also seen on Bob Newhart Show) was NOT her master. kaufman@orion.arpa kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 86 13:04:09 GMT From: hoqam!bicker@caip.rutgers.edu (KOHN) Subject: Re: SF on TV Wayne Rogers (Trapper John of TV's M*A*S*H) played Col. Nelson in a recent TV Movie. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 9 Sep 86 12:53:54-PDT From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA> Subject: SF on TV When I was in Korea in 1978 (courtesy of the U.S. Army) there was one english-speaking station (AFKN). AFKN ran a British-made SF television series that was sooooo bad I'm not surprised that it hasn't been seen here. This series was called _STAR_MAIDENS_. The plot was that there was another planet behind Neptune (so you couldn't see it from Earth) and this planet was ruled by women (amazon fantasy). Two men, scrubbing the floor, plan to escape to Earth. Man 1: "On Earth, men are the rulers." Man 2: "That can't be right. That would be pure heaven." So they escape to Earth and land in a small pond in rural England. Their "Mistress" is ordered to retrieve these men so she and several enforcer types land in England and go to the local authorities. One funny scene has the "Mistress" walking through a small English town in a semi-diaphanous (if that's a good description) outfit on a rather cool day with her enforcers and none of the locals pay any attention to her (must be a common occurence). Now I realize that it sounds like I'm making this up but it's true. The "Mistress" was played by Judy Geeson who has had some very minor success in UK television and films. Walter Chapman ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 86 10:33:07 -0200 From: Eyal mozes <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> Subject: Re: century of StarTrek >Century: In "Space Seed" Kahn (No flames, please, folks, I can >never remember where the "h" goes and whereever I decide to put it >is guaranteed to be wrong.) is clearly identified as being from the >1990s, and Kirk tells him he's been sleeping for 2 centuries. This >puts ST in the 22nd century. Yet, in "Squire of Gothos" they say >they're 900 light years from Earth and Trelane has been observing >the Earth of 900 years ago. ("...if someone had a telescope >powerful enough..." And let's ignore the science of that, shall >we?) Yet, Trelane knows about Napoleon. This puts ST in the 27th >Century. Some more evidence for the 22nd-century theory: in "Tomorrow is Yesterday", when they go back to the 1960s, and Kirk is captured by the guards in that army base and tells them the truth about how he got in there ("I just popped out of thin air"), one of them yells at him: "We'll send you to jail for the next 200 years", and he then murmurs: "that should be about enough". Eyal Mozes BITNET: eyal@wisdom CSNET and ARPA: eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA UUCP: ...!ihnp4!talcott!WISDOM!eyal ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 86 18:58:32 GMT From: calmasd!jnp@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: SUPERMAN the TV series > Brown students claim that the Industrial National Bank (now Fleet > N.B.) building is either the DAILY PLANET or the tall building he > leaps over in a single bound. Does anyone out there know of any > way I can check this? Superman jumpes over The Los Angeles County court building which was also used for exterior shots of the DAILY PLANET. John M. Pantone @ GE/Calma San Diego ...{ucbvax|decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jnp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 86 14:25 MST From: Roger Mann <RMann@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: Re: OLD SF-TV Anyone remember Captain Video from the early 50's ? It had two space cadets, the Captain, the evil Dr. Pauley (heh, heh, heh) and a serialized Western (!) In those days EVERYTHING on TV was a western. The gimmick was that there would be a 5-10 minute segment dealing with Captain Video and then he would start to monitor the "progress" of his agent on earth who would be some 30's cowboy in the middle of some totally unrelated story. I would patiently wait through the horse opera for the resumption of the SF portion. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 86 09:31:14 EDT (Monday) Subject: Doctor Who - Rochester From: Rob Westfall<Westfall.Henr@Xerox.COM> WhoNews: Rochester, NY WXXI, Channel 21 has the ENTIRE Dr. Who Collection. According to the last months's WXXI program guide, they will complete the broadcast with the Collin Baker programs and then start shows from the BEGINNING. Rob ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 86 13:02:20 GMT From: hoqam!bicker@caip.rutgers.edu (KOHN) Subject: Re: Dr. Who Roadshow From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA> > In the NY Times a week back I saw an article about a travelling > Dr. Who exhibit (a semi-trailer full of props, costumes, etc.) > that had recently been in the NY area-- it sounded like great fun. > The article mentioned that the exhibit was travelling around the > U.S. Anyone seen this, or have any information on their > itinerary? Thanks. I'm not sure that this is what you're looking for but I got this in the mail and I'll reproduce it here: (shortened) The British American Television Society in association with Ettinger Brothers and Master Productions is proud to present: THE JON PERTWEE EAST COAST TOUR starring Jon Pertwee (Dr. Who #3 and Worzel Gummidge) and featuring other guests from Doctor Who, videos, panels, slide shows, costume contests, CABERETS and much more! Saturday, October 18 Trenton, New Jersey War Memorial Auditoriun Sunday, October 19 Baltimore, Maryland Baltimore Convention Center Friday, Saturday, Sunday, October 24, 25, 26 New York City: 2 West 64th Street (a block from Lincoln Center) INFINICON: Special Guests- George Takai (Star Trek's Mr. Sulu), and Science Fiction Author Isaac Asimov Friday, Saturday, Sunday, October 31, November 1, 2 Boston, Massachusetts Saturday, November 8 Albany, New York Hilton Hotel Sunday, November 9 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Hilton Hotel Friday, Saturday, Sunday, November 14, 15, 16 Nashville, Tennessee: War Memorial Auditorium and the Nashville Hyatt Regency Hotel Special Guest: James Doohan Friday, Saturday, Sunday, November 21, 22, 23 New Orleans, Louisiana: Howard Johnson Hotel Special Guest: James Doohan Also: THANKSGIVING DAY WITH JON PERTWEE AT WALT DISNEY WORLD INCLUDING THREE DAY PASS TO MAGIC KINGDOM AND EPCOT CENTER Spend Thanksgiving Day touring the park with Jon Pertwee then join him and others for a traditional Thanksgiving Day Dinner. Friday, Saturday, Sunday, November 28, 29, 30 Tampa, Florida: Tampa Theatre FOR MORE INFORMATION CALL (516) 744 5860 ------------------------------ From: carnellp@usrcv1.dec.com Subject: Re: Dr. Who Roadshow Date: 8 Sep 86 21:05:31 GMT The Dr. Who Experience is scheduled to be in Syracuse from Sept. 13-17 at a local mall. It is being sponsored by the local PBS affiliate. There is also to be a single showing of "The 5 Doctors" but by the time I called all 300 seats were gone. I will check it out this weekend and report back to the net what I find. Paul Carnell. DEC Software Services, Syracuse, NY UUCP: {decvax, ucbvax, allegra}!decwrl!usrcv1.dec.com!carnellp APRA: carnellp%usrcv1.DEC@DECWRL.COM ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 86 14:41:56 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re:...Macross allegory From: nike!kaufman > ...(BTW, see how they portray Japanese? Short, fat, balding, eyes > set to either side of their _nostrils_, pug noses, etc.? What > kind of self- image do these people have?) Yeah, I always wondered about that myself, ever since I first saw STAR BLAZERS and noticed that the only obvious Oriental in the "cast" fit the rather racist image of the "little yellow monkey". I thought this was exceedingly bizarre. If the cartoon hadn't been produced by Japanese, I would've been quite offended. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 86 07:41:11 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory? kaufman@nike.uucp (Bill Kaufman) writes: > Ever see one of those karate movies on Saturday/Sunday afternoon > TV? Americans are always brave, tough, (tho' sometimes not too > bright), and always victorious? ... I remember one karate movie that had an american villain. Big, strong, almost indestructible. Our hero finally managed to do him in by electrocuting him (shades of King Kong vs Godzilla). Prior to this, he had been hit over the head with a pipe, had a brick wall knocked onto him, etc. He also absorbed a considerable number of punches, kicks, elbows, head butts, etc. Kind of like the chinese bodyguard in "Fistful of Yen", but tougher. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Sep 86 22:02:57 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: OLD SF-TV >The more sophisticated (??) was called "Space Angel", and featured >that strange, cheapo animation technique where characters' mouths >move (it looked like they had filmed an actor's mouth, then merged >that with the non-moving cartoon) and occasionally large objects >moved. (This was also used for an adventure series of the time >called "Clutch Cargo"). Both "Space Angel" and "Clutch Cargo" appeared on a kiddie TV show in Chicago (on WGN) called "The Garfield Goose Show". While neither one had great animation, "Clutch Cargo" was *much* worse. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 86 13:21:35 GMT From: hjuxa!jjf@caip.rutgers.edu (FRANEY) Subject: RE: TV SF Here are two TV shows that I have yet to see mentioned during this discussion. UFO - a british futuristic special service team is contracted to investigate UFO visits and defend the Earth if necessary. I remember the leader to be a tall blond guy. His car looked like a deLorean, with the doors that open upwards. All the UFO's looked the same and made the same sounds. The team was highly secretive and worked behind a front of some kind. In the beginning of each show, you would see the boss come into his office and push a button. You could tell his office was actually a huge elevator because the picture behind his desk changed from a landscape, to cement to a television screen (sketchy memory there). Also, the installation they operated on the moon had women personel with silver clothes and beautiful silver hair. Also, the show never ever showed the actual alien beings, except once. I really miss this show. Land of the Giants - the only reason I remember this show is beacause I used to have a 'Land of the Giants' lunchbox. Anyway, an group of space travellers crash land on a planet inhabited by humans the size of King Kong. In order to survive, the group gets supplies from the giants stores, and risk being caught. The giants never liked the little people. But once a girl giant was kind to the travellers. I never found out if they made it home. John J. Franey ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Sep 86 0846-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #290 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 16 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 290 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Time Travel (11 msgs) & Tickets to the Moon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 07 Sep 86 19:04:42 EDT From: michael%maine.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Michael Johnson) Subject: Re: Time travel/Laws of Conservation Wayne Throop states: >Take an object (located at event a) and send it back in time (event >b). Total mass for the universe decreases in that instant, and is >replaced by some energy. When the object arrives in the past >(event c), total mass of the universe *increased*, so energy is >consumed. Is this why the Delorean in "Back to the Future" leaves flaming tire tracks behind and yet comes out the other "end" covered with ice? Wonder if the writers actually thought of this or whether it was just a lucky stab? There is one problem with this, and that is the question of where does the energy come from/go to that is displacing/being displaced by the mass? It would seem that in order to maintain conservation of mass/energy completely, there would have to be a two-way exchange, so that in fact if something gets sent through time, an equivalent mass or energy must be sent the other way. This appeals to my sense of symmetry. I think there are writers who have dealt with this somewhat, in stories where they could snatch something from the past but had to leave an object of the same mass from the place that they took the object (usually a person), or some other such scheme. I haven't studied enough relativistic physics to be real solid on this, but it seems to me that equations for time travel might tie in pretty closely with the mass/energy relationship and the inability to exceed the speed of light. We know that energy can at least reach the speed of light. We have evidence that there are "objects" that can exceed the speed of light. We also know that nothing in our universe that has mass can quite reach the speed of light. Others have said that time travel won't work for the same reasons we cannot reach the speed of light. Perhaps the ticket is to only send energy through time, perhaps doing mass/energy<-->energy/mass conversions on both ends. Any one got a spare Transporter beam around? michael@maine.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 86 14:06:30 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: time travel themes Robert Firth lists three categories of time travel stories. I'd note at least one more category (possibly a super-category?): You can't change the past because: space-time won't take the strain ("A Gun for Dinosaur", de Camp); your past is yours alone ("The Men Who Murdered Mohammed", Bester); your time-machine is really a fantasizer ("Flight of the Horse", Niven); you'll foul things up so as to prevent time travel's invention (TIME AND AGAIN, Brunner); etc. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 86 21:02:30 GMT From: jhardest @ Wheeler-EMH Subject: RE: A Sane man approach to time travel PFFFFFT to the person who said time travel is impossible because it is a tangible thing.... may I come to your house yesterday and rearrange your next week !!! Suppose you are right in some respect... time once, happened really can not be changed. if we went back in time suppose we would go as ghosts..... oblique-- maybe the author of the Amityville goes back in time to create his own story... oblique enough for you and traveling in time is really not a paradox... you really only need one. and she must be attractive I think I go to next week and wait for you guys to catch up... john hardesty jhardest@ wheeler-emh.arpa ------------------------------ From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Frost) Subject: Re: Re: Time Travel/Laws of Conservation Date: 8 Sep 86 23:21:50 GMT michael%maine.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes: >Wayne Throop states: >>Take an object (located at event a) and send it back in time (event >>b). Total mass for the universe decreases in that instant, and is >>replaced by some energy. When the object arrives in the past (event >>c), total mass of the universe *increased*, so energy is consumed. > >Is this why the Delorean in "Back to the Future" leaves flaming >tire tracks behind and yet comes out the other "end" covered with >ice? Wonder if the writers actually thought of this or whether it >was just a lucky stab? I don't want to get into the conservation of energy thing, but recall that the Delorean came out covered with ice *every* time it travelled through time, not only when going into the past or the future. Recall: The dog (Einstein?) is being sent one minute forward. Flaming tracks around the other actors in the parking lot, and ice cold car on rearrival. First trip backward to 1955. Car leaves flaming tracks into the photo box, and terrorist van slams into same building. Car is cold when crashing into barn (steam evident in movie, I believe, as it was after the first trip). Trip forward to 1985. Car leaves flaming tracks up street, emerges ice cold (with a nonfunctional engine, yet) in 1985. In every case, it left hot and came out cold. More likely, the writer was concerned with the amount of energy required to pop the car around in time. The car did not appear to be cold when returning from the future with a "Mr. Fusion" supplying plenty of power (though I have no idea how long the car had been back), even though it appeared to have an excess of power when flying forward. It could be that the car just barely had the power to make the jump when powered by fission. On a lighter side, did anyone else notice that Doc had on velcro shoes back in 1955? This is quite evident when he is hanging from the clock tower. I don't know when velcro came out, but I am pretty sure that shoes with them weren't around in 1955. They looked too well made to be a Doc creation, and he didn't appear to care about novelty in clothes (except of course when coming back from the future). Or were they a gift from the future brought back in a future movie? Jim Frost UUCP: ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs BITNET: cscc71c@bostonu ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 1986 10:35:17-EDT From: wyzansky@NADC Subject: Time travel loops Dave Tallman (dspo!tallman@lanl.arpa) had a comment on my letter on the Miller story in SFL#273. Further thoughts follow: >>Except, the knife brought back was >>whole, while the one in the museum had a notch cut out to try >>to analyze the material. > >Any object that appears in a time loop must somehow be self- >regenerating, or it would wear out from sheer attrition of >handling. That is what would eventually happen to the pistol >also, loaded or not. Not necessarily so. A true loop in time would in fact only occur once, with absolutely no changes from one "cycle" to the next. If there were changes, that would imply that there was a starting condition, outside of the loop. Also, if there are changes, the changes would be bound to be cumulative, meaning that the loop would "decay" and eventually a condition would arise which would prevent the loop from continuing, cancelling it out, i.e. the pistol running out of ammo or wearing out. You can't just assume it is self regenerating as that would violate the conservation laws, which we are just extending over the 4-dimensional continuum. With the knife in Miller's story, since it was an unknown, unanalyzable, metal, it is possible that it could have regenerated over the course of the 300 odd years it was sitting in the museum. That is one advantage of working with unknown materials. Also thanks to wall@decwrl.DEC.COM for pointing out that _The_ Time_Machined_Saga_ was by Harry Harrison, not Keith Laumer. Harold Wyzansky (wyzansky@nadc.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 86 12:14:09 GMT From: cvl!kayuucee@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) Subject: Re: Time Travel/Laws of Conservation madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) writes: > On a lighter side, did anyone else notice that Doc had on velcro > shoes back in 1955? This is quite evident when he is hanging from > the clock tower. I don't know when velcro came out, but I am > pretty sure that shoes with them weren't around in 1955. They > looked too well made to be a Doc creation, and he didn't appear to > care about novelty in clothes (except of course when coming back > from the future). Or were they a gift from the future brought > back in a future movie? The shoes probably came from the suitcase that Doc put in the car before the Libyans showed up. Doc in 1955 then probably saw the shoes and tried them on when they looked like they would fit. This suitcase also yielded the hairdryer that kept appearing and disappearing from Marty's belt in the scene where he played Darth Vader in George's bedroom. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Aug 86 09:11:28 GMT From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Time Travel / Laws of conservation From: <PSST001%DTUZDV1.BitNet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> >If the resulting energy can be controlled and is not required for >the time-travel itself, this might solve both our energy AND >garbage problems. > >Sending back garbage to past times would not pollute earth because >of celestial motions,i.e. yesterday the earth was somewhere else, >so to speak. > >All this under the assumption of an energy-conservation-law that is >also time-valid. Presumably sending objects into the past would *consume* energy -- it is only sending them into the future that would produce energy. The idea being that if you send an item into the past, there are now two copies of that item, and it took energy produce that second copy. Similarly if you send an item into the future it ceases to exist for a period of time, and presumably its energy would become available. It seems, though, that you could only "borrow" energy from the future -- when the future actually came along, and the object once again existed, its appearance would require the subtraction of an equal amount of energy, if energy were to be conserved. But this is a kind of time-travel machine that we already (in theory) *know* how to build: convert X to energy, store the energy for a while, then convert the energy back into X. Presto, time travel into the future. Not really very exciting, come to think of it. David desJardins ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 08:08 PDT From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM Subject: Books on time travel Re: jayembee's message of 6 Sep 1986 08:32:32-PDT, and others: Turns out I've read, and have both TIME AND AGAIN (Finney) and BID TIME RETURN...Read the latter first, enjoyed both, and don't know why I got them confused. I recommend them both. I haven't read Simak's TaA...maybe I should find a copy. Marina Fournier Arpa: <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 11:29:25 EDT From: Joel B Levin <levin@cc2.bbn.com> Subject: Re: Gold Coin Revisited To: Fournier.pasa@xerox.com As soon as I saw "a book by I. M. Notsurewho called 'Time and Again'" I immediately thought of ... The book by Jack Finney, which I *thought* was called 'Time and Again' in which the narrator travels to New York of the late 19th century by imagining himself back there. It is well written, and replete with illustrations and photographs of New York and people of the time. The following week, when I saw your mention of Matheson, I immediately thought of ... The Christopher Reeve movie that I saw on cable some years back. Some coincidence! The means of time travel is very similar. I remember that Matheson was the author, and also seeing his name in the credits for a small part in the picture. I remember the movie as a pleasant afternoon, and I am very fond of the Rachmaninoff which suffuses the sound track. JBL ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 08:57 PDT From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Gold Coin Revisited To: levin@cc2.bbn.com In addition to the confusion regarding books/movies on Time Travel, I remember my jr.highschool library had two books entitled, STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND. The one not likely to be discussed here was a book on anthropology. Apparently, print media names cannot be copyrighted/trademark protected in and of themselves. Where licensing comes in--well, that's a different game. Marina ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 06:42:38 GMT From: navajo!bothner@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Time travel [Actually about E=mc^2] todd%sarah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM writes: >There used to be conservation "laws" for both mass and energy; when >it became known that they were inter-convertible, the laws were >merged into a single one. The author seems to be guilty of a very common misunderstanding about Special Relativity (which confused me for many years), which gives me an excuse to emphasize: Mass and energy are \not/ inter-convertible; they \are the same thing/. Both the conservation laws (mass and energy) are still valid under Special Relativity. In fact, given the widely-misunderstood E=mc^2, \they are the same law/! E=mc^2 does not say that 'm' amount of mass may be converted in 'mc^2' amount of energy; it relates two systems of measurements (sets of units) for the same thing. Thus a mass of lead sitting of your desk weighs 'm' kilos. It therefore has a "rest energy" of 'mc^2' joules (if 'c' is given in SI units). After shooting it out of a cannon, its energy will increase. This "kinetic energy" is mv^2, according to Newtonian physics. According to Einstein, it also becomes more massive. The extra mass is approximately: delta(m) = delta(E)/c^2 ~ m(v/c)^2. Since v/c is so small, the difference is usually not noticable, but it significant in the case of fast sub-atomic particles. On the other hand, something we normally think of as energy, namely photons, also have a small mass, given by the same old E=mc^2. (Here E=hf, where f is the "frequency" of the photon and h is Planck's constant). This mass is what gives light the momentum (hence pressure) that can drive light sails. Note that while protons (and neutrinos) have zero \rest mass/, when travelling at the speed of light, they too acquire mass. Massive particles must travel slower than c. Mass-less particles always travel at light-speed. Thus in a nuclear reaction, it is not the case that mass is being converted to energy. Rather it is massive particles (neutrons, protons etc) being converted into slightly lighter particles plus a number of zero-rest-mass particles (photons, neutrinos etc). The total mass remains fixed, as does the total energy. However, the at-rest mass of the result decreases slightly, and is converted into a spectacular amount of "kinetic mass". I hope I haven't made any mistakes or further confused anybody; it has been a while since I studied physics. Per Bothner bothner@pescadero.stanford.edu ...!decwrl!glacier!navajo!bothner Computer Science Dept. Stanford University, Stanford CA 94305 ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 86 15:48:01 GMT From: LIVCU@CUNYVM.BITNET Subject: Pan AM tickets - to the moon In 1969/1970 Pam AM offered as a gimmick to "2001:ASO", tickets on the first "shuttle" to the moon. I believe these tickets were offered at the time for the then astronomical sum of $2000 (US). What I would like to know is this: First did anyone in netland actually buy a ticket? and second has Pan Am been trying to buy these tickets back for the past ten or so years? I have heard that they were trying to buy all the tickets back when someone realized how much the trip would cost and how much they could make. Any info is welcome I'm just wondering about this! Louis Mackey LIVCU@CUNYVM.Bitnet City University of New York ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Sep 86 0903-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #291 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 16 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 291 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Sep 86 04:55:03 GMT From: styx!mcb@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes: > To the reader who said that he had read this novel many times > without seeing any passage in favor of nuclear war, we award the > 1986 Zinc Star for fearless and incisive critical comment. Well > done, well done, noble sir! Well, Tim, I hope you have TWO Zinc Stars, since you'll have to send me one as well. The fact that Heinlein's character (and I will allow that he speaks with the authorial voice, as many of RAH's heroes do) dryly notes some of the beneficial effects the war had compared with previous wars hardly marks hims as being in FAVOR of a nuclear war. I fear this passage, and the other one quoted, were a little too subtle for Mr. Maroney. Heinlein's views on war and peace are varied and unconventional. One of the central themes of TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE is that Lazarus Long (and various military leaders) realize that "if you fight and run away, you live to fight another day"; nevertheless, Lazarus is willing to fight and die for a cause he believes just. Some of the ethics of conflict that I have seen throughout RAH's books can be summarized as follows: 1. Above all, it is the duty of a person to defend his/her self and family during times of war and conflict. 2. If #1 is secure, defense of country, city, way of life, culture, etc., are desirable. 3. Symbolic martyrdom and heroic gestures are less useful than assuring personal survival in order to renew the battle at a later time. 4. In real battles, we fight to win, and "rules of war" and similar niceties are irrelevant. 5. Loyalty to one's government is desirable, but one should be ready to get rid of it if it becomes oppressive. 6. It is desirable to possess weapons, since they tend to come in handy. And above all: 7. TANSTAAFL. Michael C. Berch ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA UUCP: {ihnp4,dual,sun}!lll-lcc!styx!mcb ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 86 10:14:22 GMT From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb mcb@styx.UUCP (Michael C. Berch) writes: >> [quotation from FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD in which the protagonist >> states, inter alia, that the just-occured nuclear war had a few >> positive effects, in that it killed off the fat, useless >> stay-at-homes rather than the best & brightest young men; that it >> killed off the "stupid" who did not plan for war, rather than the >> cream of the crop...] > > The fact that Heinlein's character (and I will allow that he >speaks with the authorial voice, as many of RAH's heroes do) dryly >notes some of the beneficial effects the war had compared with >previous wars hardly marks hims as being in FAVOR of a nuclear war. >I fear this passage, and the other one quoted, were a little too >subtle for Mr. Maroney. When reason fails, there's always insult, eh, Mr. Berch? But I suppose I should thank you for showing your true colors on the issue right off the bat. Your statements are clearly emotional, not rational. Mr. Berch speaks with the fervent preconception of a fundamentalist inventing excuses for the slaughter of the Midianites. Heinlein was clear; he did not dryly note a few positive effects; he stated outright that the nuclear war was "good for the country". Go back and check the quote if you don't believe me (and I'll grant you, it's hard to believe). He then went on to say that it had "turned the tide" toward the triumph of freedom, and that the net effect would be to "improve the breed". Not hesitantly, not dryly, not in passing - Heinlein states outright and enthusiastically that nuclear war would be a wonderful thing! I know Heinlein is probably one of your heroes, Mr. Berch, but you simply must face facts. The book says what I quoted it as saying, not what you would like it to have said. And "Pie in the Sky" is even more unambiguous: "There are so many, many things in this so-termed civilization of ours which would be mightily improved by a once over lightly of the Hiroshima treatment." You can twist and turn and try to divert the issue into long lists of irrelevant Heinlein statements on other matters (which you did, and which I have omitted), but these are the things he said, and you can't change that by wishing it away. Moorcock's essay "Starship Stormtroopers", which you can get in the collection "The Opium General", deals not primarily with the fascism of many science fiction writers, but of the peculiar phenomenon of their support by people who disagree with their views; Mr. Berch has given us a fine example of this. While Moorcock makes no broad conclusions about the reasons for this, I would speculate that it has to do with two chief factors. First, we all started reading Heinlein at around age ten or earlier, before the development of a real critical faculty. Ideas firmly implanted at this age are very hard to dislodge later, as every organized religion knows. (For me, the break with Heinlein was when, at sixteen or so, I tried to re-read "Starship Troopers", which I had liked at twelve, and found it to be perhaps the most appalling book I had ever read.) Second, science fiction readers have a sort of siege mentality, reinforced through imbecilic articles in Harper's and so forth on how awful the field is; and this creates a predilection to view criticism of those authors generally viewed as the bright lights of the field as an attack on the field itself, and to respond to this perceived attack viscerally. Tim Maroney {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 86 14:53:23 GMT From: utastro!ethan@caip.rutgers.edu (Ethan Vishniac) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes: > Mr. Berch speaks with the fervent preconception of a > fundamentalist inventing excuses for the slaughter of the > Midianites. Heinlein was clear; he did not dryly note a few > positive effects; he stated outright that the nuclear war was > "good for the country". Go back and check the quote if you don't > believe me (and I'll grant you, it's hard to believe). He then > went on to say that it had "turned the tide" toward the triumph of > freedom, and that the net effect would be to "improve the breed". > Not hesitantly, not dryly, not in passing - Heinlein states > outright and enthusiastically that nuclear war would be a > wonderful thing! Heinlein's characters are frequently naive in their hopes. Is he? Consider that in the above story Heinlein makes it quite clear that none of the hoped for effects occurred. In fact, the nuclear war was an unparalleled disaster for all concerned. When the distant future appears in this novel we see that nuclear war has completely destroyed the nations involved. Their distant descendants are either slaves (if white) or "black trash" if not. Heinlein's political philosophy is sophomoric, but I see little to indicate that it is as crazy as you believe. Incidentally, if "Starship Troopers" is the most horrifying novel you've ever read then you must have a restricted reading list. I also recall that when RAH was taken to task over the concept of restricting the vote to veterans he responded that he wasn't imagining a utopia, but a possible future. Given your views you might enjoy a book called "Armor" by Steakley (sp?) which can be seen as a grim rebuttal to RAH's view of interstellar war. I don't share your views and I enjoyed it a lot. Ethan Vishniac {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU Department of Astronomy University of Texas ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 86 09:10:52 edt From: firth@sei.cmu.edu Subject: Nuclear War is Good? While we're discussing RAH's attitude to nuclear war, perhaps you'd be interested in this: "Take this ... atomic bomb, for example... These people [ie, us], because of deforestation, bad agricultural methods and general mismanagement, are eroding away their arable soil at an alarming rate. At the same time, they are breeding like rabbits. In other words, each successive generation has less and less food to divide among more and more people, and, for inherited traditional and superstitious reasons, they refuse to adopt any rational program of birth control or population limitation. "But, fortunately, they now have the atomic bomb, and they are developing radioactive poisons, weapons of mass effect. And their racial, nationalistic, and ideological conflicts are rapidly reaching the explosion point. A series of all-out atomic wars is just what that sector needs, to bring their population down to their world's carrying capacity; in a century or so, the inventors of the atomic bomb will be hailed as the saviors of their species." The source is "Last Enemy", by H Beam Piper; first published in Astounding; reprinted in "Paratime" by Ace (1981). Since there are some strange people out there in cyberspace, perhaps I'd better mention (a) The above is the opinion of Verkan Vall, Chief of Paratime Police, First Level, who is a fictional character. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental. (b) The above is not necessarily the opinion of H Beam Piper, the author, John W Campbell Jr, editor of Astounding, or of any employee of Ace Books. (c) The above is not necessarily the opinion of Robert Firth, the poster of this note, nor of his family, friends, employer, or stuffed animals. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 86 13:18:43 GMT From: whuts!orb@caip.rutgers.edu (SEVENER) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb I remember back in the 60's that Ramparts magazine had a number of excerpts from Heinlein's remarks in support of Vietnam, nukes, and a number of odious positions. These particular quotes are not the only ones in which Heinlein advocates unsavory views. I recall one of his stories in which he treats very sympathetically the carrying of lethal weapons, a more advanced type of gun, and conducting regular shootouts with them. Heinlein treated such vigilantism as if it promoted some sense of "honor". Then there is, of course, Heinlein's series on the "Methuselah Complex" in which a secret group of "genetically superior" people who have secretly crossbred to attain incredible lifespans are persecuted and envied by the mass of the "genetically inferior". The only of Heinlein's works which contradicts the usual right-wing stands of some of his novels is "Stranger in a Strange Land" which seemed to me at the time to approach positively the whole counterculture of the hippies of the 60's. But then Dostoevsky was a reactionary too. Such views do not necessarily negate the value of an artist's work. Personally, however I would take Dostoevsky over Heinlein anyday in terms of the depth of his writing and his attempt to present and come to terms with the paradoxes of life. tim sevener whuxn!orb ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 86 14:16:37 GMT From: duke!mtj@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark T. Jones) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb The fact that a character in a novel holds or seems to hold a belief does not necessarily mean that the author himself holds that belief. There are many rascist remarks and attitudes in Mark Twain's novels, but he himself was not a rascist. Also, a quote by itself has very little value, you can back up anything you want by taking small excerpts from a book. So I do not think that these two quotes *prove* that Heinlein supports nuclear war. If Heinlein himself said (and not one of his characters) that he supports nuclear was (no rational human being does and I believe Heinlein to be rational) then you would have proof. Maybe we could discuss some of the good things in SF, rather than try to pick on those we don't like. I sure would appreciate any good tips on new books and new authors. Mark Jones ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 86 15:27:39 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb > tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) > Because you demanded it, pilgrim, herewith the quotes proving > Heinlein's support for nuclear war. These are taken from "Ghastly > Beyond Belief", an anthology of bad and embarrassing science > fiction excerpts. Aaaaaah yes, the old "quote out of context" ploy. Most ingenious. ( Also, as is often the case, "This must be some meaning of 'proof' with which I am not familiar." Thank you, Arthur Dent. ) > First, from "Pie in the Sky": > There are so many, many things in this so-termed civilization of > ours which would be mightily improved by a once over lightly of > the Hiroshima treatment. I am not familiar with the context here. But note well, he does emphatically *not* (repeat *NOT*) say that the net effect would be beneficial. I would be unsurprised if the surrounding context of the excerpt made this clear. > Next, a typically didactic Heinlein monologue from "Farnham's > Freehold", a post-holocaust novel of which Michael Moorcock wrote > in the critical/political essay "Starship Stormtroopers", "It's > not such a big step ... from *Farnham's Freehold* to Hitler's > *Lebensraum*." Oh, well, Michael Moorcock. That's all right then. It *must* be so. And he compared him to *Hitler*? Boy, that Heinlein must really be eeeeevil. My, oh my, how eeeeeevil he must be. Now that we've all had our little thrill of disgust, can we get on with it? Thank you. > Heinlein expounds on the wondrous improvements in America created > by letting man's friend, Mr. Nucleus, have his way despite all > this loose talk about the death of the planet. [long quote > omitted] Here, I *am* more familiar with the context, and, as I suspected, the quote in context is far less clearly nucleophilic. Consider: The quote explores the hypothesis that a nuclear war would cull the "unfit", and that hardy, freedom loving folk might selectively survive. (Even so, it is worth noting that again he did *not* say that the net effect would be beneficial.) In any event, "Aha! Thoughtcrime!" you say! But the quote comes from a portion of the novel before we find out the "true" result of the war. What was the "actual" reported result, (rather than the hypothesizing of one of the characters)? A canabalistic slave society. Real cheerful. Real pro-nuke. Riiiiight. Why are there so many bozos who seem to think that everything Heinlein characters *say* is what Heinlein himself *believes*? What nonsense. His characters (even the protagonists) *often* say or say they believe things that the actual events in the story contradict. Using such incidents to deduce what Heinlein himself thinks is like using the "nobody hurt, only a nigger killed" line to "prove" that Mark Twain is racist. Or Mel Brooks, for that matter. Sorry, Tim. I just don't find your "quote out of context ploy" very convincing. Hardly what I'd call "proof". Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 17:17:37 GMT From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) writes: >The only of Heinlein's works which contradicts the usual right-wing >stands of some of his novels is "Stranger in a Strange Land" which >seemed to me at the time to approach positively the whole >counterculture of the hippies of the 60's. There are other examples: Job, I Will Fear No Evil, The Man Who Travelled in Elephants, Waldo all come to mind. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Sep 86 0915-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #292 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 16 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 292 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Impossibilities (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Sep 86 09:51:06 edt From: firth@sei.cmu.edu Subject: Impossibilities "Prepare yourselves, Gentlemen, for a whole new scale of physical scientific values" Do you hate it when people say things are "impossible"? Well, I do, and this is a personal statement, so skip it right now if you'd rather. The belief in physical impossibilities is a mental aberration that afflicts both scientists and non-scientists. It has many causes, but the root causes are, I think: in scientists, a fear that their hard-won expertise will become obsolete; in non-scientists, a simple fear of the unknown. "Why, if telepathy existed, ANYONE could be reading my mind RIGHT NOW" The established scientists' attitude to the impossible has been satirised by a lot of people from Charles Fort to H Beam Piper ("Ministry of Disturbance") so I'll say no more on that. Instead, let's analyse the disease. There are three kinds of "impossible": technologically impossible, scientifically impossible, and theoretically impossible. Technological impossibility: we have no means of doing it, therefore it can't be done. For example, one of the best arguments against the possibility of space travel was the observation that no chemical combination known could release enough energy to lift its own weight out of our gravity well. Apart from sloppy technical analysis, this attitude seems a simple failure of nerve. For a contemporary analogy, look at the "ten million lines of working software is impossible" debate. Scientific impossibility: we know of no theory that predicts it, therefore it can't happen. For example, the Earth can't be more than about ten million years old, because "even if it were composed entirely of the best grade coal" the Sun could not have been burning that long. Such indeed was the position less than a century ago. Perhaps we are in a similar state today over evolution: we have lots of facts, but they don't hang together, and there is no convincing theoretical model. Hence the endless debate between gradualists and catastrophists. Theoretical impossiblity: we can prove it can't be done. The most famous example is, of course, the transmutation of the elements, a longstanding fantasy, born from deep desires in the human psyche, finally laid to rest by the Atomic Theory, which showed the chemical elements to be immutable. Today's bugbear is (you guessed it) faster-than-light travel. Every physicist will explain at the drop of a photon why it's theoretically impossible; few physicists admit that theories, like all human creations, are fallible, and that the universe is an endless surprise. Perhaps we should avoid the word "impossible", and say only "we don't know how", or "our current theories predict it won't happen", or something sounding a little less like Divine Truth. But, given the deep desire of the human mind to believe it knows the Divine Truth, such a change is no doubt impossible. Robert Firth ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 86 04:58:57 GMT From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Impossibilities From: firth@sei.cmu.edu > "Prepare yourselves, Gentlemen, for a whole > new scale of physical scientific values" Or not, as the case may be... > Technological impossibility: we have no means of doing it, > therefore it can't be done. For example, one of the best > arguments against the possibility of space travel was the > observation that no chemical combination known could release > enough energy to lift its own weight out of our gravity well. > Apart from sloppy technical analysis, this attitude seems a simple > failure of nerve. For a contemporary analogy, look at the "ten > million lines of working software is impossible" debate. Ok, fine, I can take that, but don't we mean by this that "right now we don't have the means to do this" some *may* continue this with "therefore it can't be done" but I think that the average technologist would add the corollary "eventually however, and given certain tools...." Particularly, I think this applies to your example, because it is certainly going to take a long time before anyone can write 10 million lines of bug-free, useful software. Unless, of course, someone can come up with a radically new way of programming. > Scientific impossibility: we know of no theory that predicts it, > therefore it can't happen. For example, the Earth can't be more > than about ten million years old, because "even if it were > composed entirely of the best grade coal" the Sun could not have > been burning that long. Such indeed was the position less than a > century ago. Perhaps we are in a similar state today over > evolution: we have lots of facts, but they don't hang together, > and there is no convincing theoretical model. Hence the endless > debate between gradualists and catastrophists. This carries the same sort of argument, only here you're talking about the lack of intellectual tools rather than physical tools. Again, we require some sort of radical development, sometimes known as a leap of intuition. By saying that something is "scientifically impossible" we are saying that we don't have the intellectual tools, aka theories, to explain it. In the case of the Coal Sun, the evidence available at the time suggested that the sun was "scientifically impossible" (ie a confession of the inadequacy of the physics of the time, don't be hard on them, we have similar problems today) but then they didn't know about nuclear fusion. The parenthesis in my last sentence states all I think needs to be stated about your ideas of evolutionary theories. > Theoretical impossiblity: we can prove it can't be done. The most > famous example is, of course, the transmutation of the elements, a > longstanding fantasy, born form deep desires in the human psyche, > finally laid to rest by the Atomic Theory, which showed the > chemical elements to be immutable. Today's bugbear is (you > guessed it) faster-than-light travel. Every physicist will > explain at the drop of a photon why it's theoretically impossible; > few physicists admit that theories, like all human creations, are > fallible, and that the universe is an endless surprise. Not a lot of difference between "scientific impossibility" and "theoretical impossibility" unless by the former you are referring to the *observation* of a circumstance of nature followed by the statement "that's impossible" and by the latter, the *imagination* of a circumstance of nature followed by the same statement. Before I continue on this, one comment on transmutation of the elements: what about nuclear physics? Give me a big enough accelerator and a lump of lead and I'll give a lump of gold in return (or something like that anyway :-)). There are quite a few elements that do not exist in nature, but the right sort of fooling around with other elements will produce them. Aside from that, how do you think the gold that you might wear around your finger came into being in the first place. For more information, find yourself a supernova remnant or a book on nucleosynthesis. Now for a quick lesson on Scientific Method: 1) Do an experiment, any experiment 2) Invent a theory to explain your results 3) Do another experiment to try to disprove the theory 4) if you fail do disprove your theory, repeat step 3 with another experiment. 5) If you do disprove your theory, think up another to explain your now larger set of experimental results and return to step 3. This procedure lies at the heart of modern science, and is necessary to its continued growth. I grant you, it doesn't always work this way, step one may often be replaced by an accidental, and fortuitous discovery, but the core of the thing still holds. The part that is never violated is the rejection of a theory that has been proved wrong. Now, you have *imagined* a circumstance of nature, namely the possibility of faster than light travel, but, you have not demonstrated the fact. This is the crux of the matter, if you cannot prove the possibilty of FTL travel, then why on earth should I consider throwing out what is a perfectly good theory in every other respect? Therefore I say that it is theoretically impossible. Now if I go out tomorrow and meet a little green man from Mars who says he took 10 minutes to get to Earth from home, and can prove it to the satisfaction of respected scientists, then I shall indeed throw out my theory that said his journey was impossible and start on another (not that I'm likely to succeed, I'm no Einstein). So, the first thing that any scientist is going to admit is that his theories are fallible, he wouldn't call them theories if he didn't. He may refer to "laws of the universe", but that's slightly less of a mouthful than "in our particular region of the universe, the observable rules of the universe are .... provided that no-one can find any evidence that they aren't in which case I shall change my views accordingly". Just as certainly, he's going to admit that the universe is a continuous surprise, if he didn't, he wouldn't be a scientist, and if it was, science would be as boring (and useless) as all hell. > Perhaps we should avoid the word "impossible", and say only "we > don't know how", or "our current theories predict it won't > happen", or something sounding a little less like Divine Truth. > But, given the deep desire of the human mind to believe it knows > the Divine Truth, such a change is no doubt impossible. Personally, I find that it is those people who cannot be persuaded to think otherwise, even in the face of overwhelming evidence in contradiction to their views, who are most likely to have the arrogance to believe that they know "Divine Truth". In contrast the average modern day scientist is quite humbled by the ructures that his vocation has gone through in past centuries. The more a man learns, the more he finds there is to learn. Tim Abbott ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 86 19:06:15 GMT From: ags@h.cc.purdue.edu (Dave Seaman) Subject: Re: Impossibilities firth@sei.cmu.edu writes: >Theoretical impossiblity: we can prove it can't be done. The most >famous example is, of course, the transmutation of the elements, a >longstanding fantasy, born form deep desires in the human psyche, >finally laid to rest by the Atomic Theory, which showed the >chemical elements to be immutable. If this is what you mean by "Theoretical impossibility" then you need a fourth category -- Mathematical impossibility: we can REALLY prove it can't be done. Example: you can't write a formula (analogous to the quadratic formula) for finding roots of the general fifth-degree equation using only the coefficients and their roots. Your example about the chemical elements being immutable seems to "prove" that it is impossible to change uranium into lead, for example. Think about it. Dave Seaman ags@h.cc.purdue.edu ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 86 11:39:16 GMT From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: Impossibilities firth@sei.cmu.edu writes: >Do you hate it when people say things are "impossible"? Well, I >do, and this is a personal statement, so skip it right now if you'd >rather. The belief in physical impossibilities is a mental >aberration that afflicts both scientists and non-scientists. The belief in physical impossibilities is an extremely useful concept, so much so that all sane persons (in practice, not necessarily when composing articles for the USENET) employ it. In 'Peter Pan', Barrie put forth the idea that people can fly. Given your stated belief that the notion of physical impossibility is a mental aberration, it leads me to wonder if you have ever attempted to flap your arms and fly to work. What stops you from at least making the attempt? >It has many causes, but the root causes are, I think: in >scientists, a fear that their hard-won expertise will become >obsolete; in non-scientists, a simple fear of the unknown. Did you ever consider that one cause is rational thought? >Scientific impossibility: we know of no theory that predicts it, >therefore it can't happen. For example, the Earth can't be more >than about ten million years old, because "even if it were composed >entirely of the best grade coal" the Sun could not have been >burning that long. Such indeed was the position less than a >century ago. You are trivializing an important scientific debate of the last century. Lord Kelvin did make a calculation (based on gravitational, not chemical energy) which showed that this source of energy could not suffice for for than 10 million years or so. His calculations were correct, and some people thought that this was a long enough time that this was probably the source of the Sun's energy. Others, more concerned with the evidence of geology, were convinced that the Solar System was much older and that another source of energy must exist. Other theories were considered, but nothing gained general acceptance. This is how science is supposed to work, and I fail to see what you hope to prove by using it as an example. >Theoretical impossibility: we can prove it can't be done. The most >famous example is, of course, the transmutation of the elements, a >longstanding fantasy, born form deep desires in the human psyche, >finally laid to rest by the Atomic Theory, which showed the >chemical elements to be immutable. The immutibility of the elements was simply an observation. Later on, of course, it was discovered that this immutability was not absolute. Theoretical understanding was only achieved when the structure of the atomic nucleus and the nature of the forces holding it together were gradually discovered. Once again, science seems to be doing its job. >Today's bugbear is (you guessed it) faster-than-light travel. >Every physicist will explain at the drop of a photon why it's >theoretically impossible; few physicists admit that theories, like >all human creations, are fallible, and that the universe is an >endless surprise. This line about what physicist will admit is just not true. What is true is that physicists will explain why it is theoretically impossible, and why that means that it is almost certainly impossible in fact. Just like it is theoretically impossible for you to fly by flapping your arms, and why in practice it is almost certain that you can't fly like a bird no matter how you try. >Perhaps we should avoid the word "impossible", and say only "we >don't know how", or "our current theories predict it won't happen", >or something sounding a little less like Divine Truth. But, given >the deep desire of the human mind to believe it knows the Divine >Truth, such a change is no doubt impossible. I think you are ignoring another deep desire -- the deep desire on the part of the Robert Firths of this world to have the universe turn out to have the laws you want it to have, and not the laws it seems in fact to have. Why this aversion to the well-established impossiblity of faster-than- light travel, if not from a desire for the universe to correspond with the works of Heinlein, Niven or Doc Smith? Isn't it just terrible and awful that those nasty physicist say that Warp Factor 9 doesn't make sense! And isn't it true that Peter Pan really *can* fly -- if you only believe it! Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 86 18:30:03 GMT From: griffith@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Cutter John) Subject: Re: Impossibilities One nit-picky correction: Call me an idiot, but I would consider fusion and fission to be processes which have a side-result of transmuting elements. Jim Griffith griffith@cory.Berekeley.EDU ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Sep 86 1005-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #293 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 16 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 293 Today's Topics: Television - The Champions & Ultraman (2 msgs) & UFO (3 msgs) & Science Fiction Theater & Mission Impossible & Billy Mumy & The Incredible Hulk & Japanimation & Bewitched & More SF TV (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Sep 86 03:47:56 GMT From: ucdavis!ccdbryan@caip.rutgers.edu (Bryan McDonald) Subject: Re: The Champions Didn't they get their "powers" after an accident in the Alps or some such place? I remember a plane crash, followed by semi-conscious visions of being helped by someone hidden the mountains. Later they regain consciousness and discover their new powers. Then again I may be thinking of some other show. Bryan McDonald ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 86 04:01:44 GMT From: ucdavis!ccdbryan@caip.rutgers.edu (Bryan McDonald) Subject: Re: SF-TV shows (Ultraman) cc-30@cory.Berkeley.EDU writes: >Boy, that brings back memories, Ultraman came to Earth while >chasing an intergalactic monster. He accidently kills a human, but >in his compassion shares his life with the human. To become >Ultraman, he must raise the Beta Capsule (the small metallic >device). Ultraman also had to win quickly, otherwise the little >light on his chest would start blinking, telling him that the I also remember a similar show where the person(human?) had to put on a funky looking pair of glasses or goggles to become the superhero. I am not sure of the title ( as I was watching this in Latin America in spanish), but I think it translated roughly to Ultra-Seven instead of Ultraman. This guy had to recharge himself every so often by flying at the sun ( I remember an episode where the alien bad guys caused a global snow storm and the good- guy barely saved the world after flying up through the clouds to recharge ). I also seem to remember that he belonged to some kind of defense agency with space ships that split into smaller components, etc. and that he had this little box of good monsters that enlarged when he tossed them out that he was always using to stall the baddies. Anyone remember this show? (Sorry there isn't more info :-)) Bryan McDonald ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 86 11:00:10 PDT (Tuesday) Subject: Re: SF-TV shows (Ultraman) From: Kupfer.osbunorth@Xerox.COM > Ultraman also had to win quickly, otherwise the little light on > his chest would start blinking, telling him that the Earth's sun > was starting to drain his energy. I thought the problem had to do with the Earth's atmosphere. I remember an episode where the fight was on the Moon, and there was no problem of energy drain. Does anybody remember "Johnny Sokko and his Flying Robot" (or something like that)? It and Ultraman are intertwined in my memory. I was amused at the different technologies in the two shows. In Ultraman, they had these nifty (spaceworthy?) ships that shot out huge flames (I think) and could fly vertically and hover. But when somebody had to bail out of one, all he had was a mundane parachute. In Johnny Sokko, they had these nifty rocket backpacks (that of course shot out huge flames), but the vehicles were mundane helicopters and such. Mike Kupfer Xerox ISD ARPA: Kupfer.osbunorth@Xerox.COM UUCP: ...!ucbvax!kupfer ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 86 16:12:12 GMT From: netxcom!ewiles@caip.rutgers.edu (Edwin Wiles) Subject: Re: Old SF-tv From: Ray <CARON@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU> >I remember a show call _U.F.O._ when I was much younger, does >anyone remember the show, the cast members? I think the bad guys >organization was something like "SHADO"? Any help will be >appreciated. Ray, You must realy be dredging the bottom of the memory pit...:-) There was a show called U.F.O. Personally, I thought that like any show, many of its episodes were quite good, while others should have been buried before shooting; most were acceptable. The organization, that you correctly identify as SHADO (full name was Supreme Headquarters - Alien Defense Organization), were actually the GOOD GUYS! (At least, from the point of view of a Earthperson...:-) ) The scenario is that Earth is being sneak attacked by aliens and our military finally figures it out. So they set up a defensive system including a moon base, a tracking-warning computer known as S.I.D. (? I think...), and a really interesting combination sub/fighter (mostly submarine, but it mounted a small one man figher-craft on its nose that was launched from under water). The whole thing must be kept from public knowledge, since the people would panic if they knew...(Didn't like that attitude, but it IS the way our 'leaders' would react.)... ...so the Supreme Headquarters is located underneath of a movie studio! (After all, no one notices if a movie studio has some very unusual equipment on hand....it's only 'props' after all!) And the supreme commander (E. Straker?) has to run the whole organization, AND a fully operational movie studio too! (That provided some interesting side-headaches to go with the ones of running SHADO.) Hope This Helps! Edwin Wiles Net Express, Inc. 1953 Gallows Rd. Suite 300 Vienna, VA 22180 ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 86 08:47:05 GMT From: adt@ukc.ac.uk (A.D.Thomas) Subject: Re: Old SF-tv Yes I remember _UFO_ very well, it was one of my favourite SF shows of all time. The organisation was called SHADOW which was an acronym for something like Supreme Headquarters Allied Defence Of the World. They were the GOOD guys who were protecting the Earth from the sporadic invasions of humanoid aliens who `breathed' a green liquid inside their starsuits. The chief good guy, Ed(?) Straker (played by Ed Bishop), ran the organistion which included a moonbase, a submarine (which could launch a "flying_sub" interceptor), mobiles (large tracked vehicles) and a host computers covered in flashing lights. There were many quite well known actors and actresses in it but the only one that sticks in my mind is Peter Gordino, the singer, who did something in the submarine. Can anyone remember the full name of the character called Paul? He came in to the show about half way thru one series and ended up as second in command. He was a fighter pilot who saw an alien ship but the authorities wanted it hushed up, as nobody was supposed to know about the greenies, so they recruited him into SHADOW. Ah! Memories, memories, Tony Thomas adt@ukc.ac.uk University of Kent, Canterbury, Kent, England. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 86 16:40:43 GMT From: csw@ukc.ac.uk (C.S.Welch) Subject: Re: Old SF-tv--- UFO That's SHADO not SHADOW and stands for Supreme Headquarters Alien Defence Organisation. The HQ was under 'Harlington-Straker Film Studios', a cover which allowed them to move all sorts of things around disguised as movie props, as well as going "on location". The aliens apparently didn't want our women this time, but our organs,as many of those aliens recovered ( dead) had transplants taken from missing persons. The green liquid was a heavily oxygenated substance designed to protect the poor aliens lungs from the effects of acceleration. Apart from the resultant tinge that this liquid gave their skin, the aliens were very similar to ourselves. And why did they do it ? The old dying world syndrome of course, though I don't know why they had to land in the U.K. so much :-) This was Gerry Anderson's first programme using live actors rather than puppets. Looking at Space 1999 he should have given up after UFO. (No lets NOT have a discussion about the merits of Space 1999). I can't remember Paul X's name, but I can add George Sewell and Gabrielle Drake to cast. The former played Straker's side kick, and the latter was one of the silver-lurex cat-suited, purple (anti-static) bewigged women who ran Moonbase. Chris Welch, csw@ukc ------------------------------ Date: Wed 10 Sep 86 00:21:19-PDT From: Lynn Gold <Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA> Subject: Science Fiction Theater The announcer was news commenator Truman Bradley. This syndicated series was produced from 1955-1957 and consisted of 78 episodes. This was one of Ivan Tors' first television series. Lynn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 10:00:57 BST (Sorted by Postman Pat) From: Zarquon <CLS21%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER2@ac.uk> Subject: Re: Sci-Fi TV (again) [mi] & The Champions Brian G. Gordon, CAE Systems Division of Tektronix, Inc. writes: >slf@well.UUCP (Sharon Lynne Fisher) writes: >>Also, nobody's mentioned ... Mission: Impossible ... > Whoa, there. One of the neat things about MI was that everything > they did was POSSIBLE, right then. Maybe prohibitively expensive > and too risky for "field use", but possible -- which pretty takes > it out of the science fiction realm. POSSIBLE? I remember an episode when they used an (albeit souped-up) electric heater with 2-4 filaments about 3-5 cm long to melt a vault full of solid gold bars!! The molten gold was then drained away through a hole they'd drilled through the floor. Once this was done, they sprayed the walls with floor coloured paint! This vault then cooled down to ROOM TEMPERATURE in about 20 minutes!!!!! This explains why they didn't call it "Mission Possible"!! Robin JANET: Robin_Savage <CLS21@uk.ac.bradford.central.cyber2> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 14:08:31 EDT From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (John White) Subject: Re: Lost in Space Speaking of the elusive Billy Mumy: In a (year escapes me) semi-sitcom entitled Sunshine (based on the movie of the same name about a woman dying of cancer, and what that does to the husband and child) Billy appeared as a member of the band that the husband was in (or was friends with, or something). It was set in Vancouver, BC as I recall, and didn't last long, either. John White WHITE@DREXELVM.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 12:58:05 EDT From: Joel B Levin <levin@cc2.bbn.com> Subject: More "SF" on TV (aack!) For completeness (actually for a decrease of incompleteness) -- I don't recall seeing a mention of 'The Incredible Hulk', where Bill Bixby would get mad and turn into a green Lou Ferigno. Poor guy must have had to worry more about replacing all those pants and shirts he split than about finding something to eat or a place to hide. Also, don't forget The Mechanical Man, and Woman, er, $6M, er, Bionic, oh, what the heck. JBL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 14:28:37 EDT From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (John White) Subject: Japanimation Hugh (Hippo.SBDERX@Xerox.COM) writes: > As for TV shows, does anyone remember "Marine Boy" (and his oxygen > pillls!!!)? ... Didn't Marine Boy use Oxy-Gum either instead of or along with pills? Also, I read somewhere that there was a lot of controversy over Tobor, the 8th Man, because of the fact that recharged his batteries by smoking special cigarettes (self-rolled?). John White WHITE@DREXELVM.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 19:38:39 GMT From: mlandau@Diamond.BBN.COM (Matt Landau) Subject: Re: SF on TV chapman@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Brent Chapman) writes: >[referring to the old "I Dream of Jeanie" show...] >No, not two separate characters, two separate actors playing the >_same_ character (the master, whatever his name was) in different >seasons. I think you're thinking of "Bewitched", which aired at about the same time. Elizabeth Montgomery played a witch named Samantha Stevens, and her husband Darren was played by two different actors in different seasons. (And for the really obscure trivia fans, their daughter was named Tabitha, and Samantha's mother was Endora - now, who played *her*?) Matt Landau mlandau@diamond.bbn.com ...harvard!diamond.bbn.com!mlandau BBN Laboratories, Inc. 10 Moulton Street, Cambridge MA 02238 (617) 497-2429 ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 86 14:30:28 GMT From: sii!kgg@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenn Goutal) Subject: tv sf: The Invaders I'm glad someone brought up "The Invaders". Something in the note just previous to it (as seen from here) made me think of it. There was a vast amount that was not explained in this series, such as how the aliens could have such vast powers in terms of spaceships and disappearing upon destruction, when they couldn't get a little thing like a pinky finger right. But for sheer chill factor, it was top-rate! The whole notion of the aliens being able to pose as humans, and infiltrate various levels of bureaucracy and bend it to their ends was (to me, at least) new at that time and much scarier than outright monsters, G&D, and what-all. (Now that I think of it, government agencies are the perfect place for aliens to hide out. Some of the worst experiences of my life, not unlike those of Roy Thinnes' character, happened at the RMV/DMV offices. Dead ends, stonewalling zombies, doubletalk, the works!) Speaking of Roy Thinnes, there was a TV movie that I especially liked calle "The Norliss Tapes". Roy Thinnes played some guy, perhaps a reporter, or p.i., who went looking to see what happened to some young lady who dissappeared in a small community on the west coast. Turned out to have something to do with witchcraft and that sort of thing. Either the woman or the Thinnes character left a set of tapes detailing the whole situation in order that someone coming later might avoid falling into the same trap. What I thought was particularly effective in forming a mood of foreboding and dread was the scenes of him driving along the coastal highway, with his voiceover giving his thoughts -- perhaps they were supposed to be part of the taped recordings. But his bleak delivery was terrific. There have been several movies since that had voiceover monologues, and several books, that I wish they had used him for. Kenn Goutal ...decvax!sii!siia!kgg ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 86 14:31:23 GMT From: sii!kgg@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenn Goutal) Subject: TV SF / Japanimation The discussion of old TV shows and movies, together with the side chatter about Japanimation, reminds me of a pair of movies I saw as a kid. I wonder if any of you also saw them, what details you remember that I don't, what trivia are associated with them, what you thought of them. One was "Twelve to the Moon". It was in black and white. It was about an expedition to the moon with a crew/staff from at least both the U.S. and the USSR, possibly others (probly UN). There were various experiments brought along, such as some plants and animals (a dog, at least, I think) to see how they would fare in zero gravity (along the way). When they got to the moon, they came upon a place where they found an atmosphere -- or *thought* they found it -- took off their helmets, and wandered off, never to be seen again. As I understood it (with my single-digit-age brain), they had been bewitched/enthralled/mind-controlled by some unseen being or force. (Perhaps it *was* seen -- I hadda leave for a while.) The other was in color, perhaps the first I'd ever seen, called "Battle in Outer Space". It started out with scenes on earth involving a person dissappearing from a rooftop, a railroad bridge floating up out of place and a passenger train tumbling headlong into the river/chasm below. Eventually the story winds up on the moon or Mars or someplace, with little green men with yellow light-up eyes scurrying around behind the rocks, and one of the astronauts being caught in a trance and made to destroy the ships in which they had arrived and on which they were supposed to leave, by leaking fuel into the wrong place, with explosive results. All the while, this voice was telling him "TIME... IS RUNNING.. OUT!" along with directions on how to sabotage the ship. After the abject terror induced by the first one, this one was good for a laugh. Kenn Goutal ...decvax!sii!siia!kgg ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Sep 86 0828-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #294 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 17 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 294 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Bixby & Delany & Dick & Koontz & McIntyre (2 msgs) & Niven & Simak & Steakley & Story Request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 07 Sep 86 16:59:06 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Asimov's robots >It's R. Giskard... who is plotting to guide the future of >mankind... In THE ROBOTS OF DAWN (title?), it is indeed R. Giskard. However, in the next book, ROBOTS AND EMPIRE, R. Giskard dies in the event which made Earth radioactive (no flames, please), and Daneel is left to carry on alone. Maybe the 0th Law dictated that humanity could not return to its home planet without harm.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 14:02:58 EDT From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (John White) Subject: Re......(Its a GOOD Life!) Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM (Marina Fournier) writes: > I seem to remember reading that story, by Jerome Bixby (I > think), in an anthology called Tomorrow's Children, (edited by > Asimov) and being surprised a number of years later when I saw it > on TV. It was either a TWILIGHT ZONE or OUTER LIMITS episode. It > WAS Billy Mumy. The short story also appeared in a SFBC edition called MUTANTS (I don't know if the book had any other life than SFBC), edited by Robert Silverberg, in 1974. "It's a GOOD Life" was copyrighted to Jerome Bixby and Ballantine Books in 1953. John White WHITE@DREXELVM.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 02:10:17 GMT From: unc!gallmeis@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Gallmeister) Subject: New Books and New Authors mtj@duke.UUCP (Mark T. Jones) writes: >Maybe we could discuss some of the good things in SF, rather than >try to pick on those we don't like. I sure would appreciate any >good tips on new books and new authors. I was recently mulling over the BEST-EVER-YOU-BETCHA ballot that flew across this window a few days ago, considering the choices, some rather clear-cut and some distressing. One of the distressing ones to me was "Best All-Time SF Series"... I KNEW I'd read better, but in the absence of my library, I couldn't think of anything to top Asimov's Foundation Series (only the first three books, thank you very much, derivatives are flat where the original function slopes...)... I decided to sit on that question for a few days, while I read through a book by Samuel R. Delany. The book is three in one; as such it is considered a series. The series (and the current publication) is entitled _The Fall Of The Towers_. These books are some of the very best things in Speculative Fiction today. THESE BOOKS GET MY VOTES AND SHOULD GET YOURS!!!!!!!!! Delany wrapped my brain around his concepts. Delany wrapped my soul around his finger and sent it bouncing around like a yo-yo. Delany blew poor Isaac clean out of the pond. Delany, it should be broadcast, has a habit of doing this to the merely great authors of speculative fiction. Mark, read some Samuel R. Delany. My suggestions: Short Story: "Aye, and Gommorrah..." in Harlan Ellison's _Dangerous Visions_ anthology (don't say you don't read things EDITED by mouths!) Short Stories: _Driftglass_ also contains "Gommorrah". Also, "The Star Pit", which will knock your block off and put it back on sideways. Novellas/Novel: _Tales of Neveryon_, a collection of novellas -- maybe the longest vignette on record, and gorgeous from all angles. Series: _The Fall Of The Towers_. Read it read it read it read it read it! Bill O. Gallmeister ...!mcnc!unc!gallmeis (PS a hint as to Delany's skill: that's ALL of his stuff I've read...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 18:14:54 BST (Sorted by Postman Pat) From: Silas_Snake <CCU1693%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk> Subject: Blade Runner vs Do Androids... I must say, I was very disappointed with the original book. I had never read any of Dick's books before, and based on this one, I wouldn't read any more (if it wasn't for the fact that everybody else loves his work.) *** SPOILERS FOLLOW *** I *did* like the basic premise behind the book. The idea of the empathy boxes and Mercerism was something I did feel interested in. I actually think it is an optimistic view of a post nuclear war society. This totally unifying non-extremist religion seems to do people in the society a lot of good, spiritually. Having created the basic society (which is the purpose of the book, to create this sort of society, and then say "What if...?") Dick then has to write a story around it (so that there could be a book to publish.) This is where it falls down. I found large parts of the story difficult to believe, and there are quite a few loose ends which Dick doesn't tie up. Perhaps some of you could put me right on some of these points? (I may have missed the point completely!) First of all, when Deckard is captured by the android police station, he escapes, because the android Captain cannot be bothered to kill him, although it means certain death for him and the other androids if he doesn't. This is explained by saying that androids don't care for anything but themselves, not even other androids. Given this, I still don't find it convincing, especially if the androids have human-equal intelligence. Next there is the matter of Phil Resch. He is a member of the android precinct, and therefore should be an android. Also we are told that he must be an android, because he can remember working in that precinct with those people for the last eight years. Deckard knows that the androids only came in about two years previously. This would seem to indicate that Resch is an android with a false memory (this idea was kept in the film) which cannot be given to humans, only androids. However, when tested, Resch comes out human. Dick doesn't explain this at all. It seems to me that he needed Resch kept alive to make an important story point (about Deckard empathising with female androids) and forgot all about the logical structure he had built around Resch being an android. Finally, there is the matter of Deckard's believability as a character. I found it very difficult to believe that Deckard was any good at his job. The film turned him into a reasonably good detective, which justified the fact of his being hired when the other guy on the job gets chewed up by Leon (who can be seen getting speared to death in Flesh + Blood, gore fans.) The book doesn't do enough in this direction. In the film, J.F. Sebastian was killed alongside Tyrell, so Deckard has to go to his flat to investigate, setting things up nicely for the final battle (best part of the film! Well done Ridley (Alien) Scott!) In the book, Roy goes to great pains to ensure that the andies won't be discovered in Isidore's (Sebastian's equivalent) flat. Unless Isidore blabs (not very likely) they won't be found in that deserted part of the city. This clearly needs some skill on Deckard's part to find them. What he does is this: he very shrewdly and cleverly picks up his R/T phone, and the office tells him where to find the andies. Cop out or what! Time for the big battle! (BIG SPOILER coming up.) Deckard walks in to the room, and shoots them. Ta-daaahh!! Oh well. Someone said that they thought the film was a little unrealistic in terms of timescale. In other words, they did not believe in the large number of advances occurring in only thirty-seven years. The book is set in wait for it...1992! Only a mere twenty-four years after publication! I think Dick's idea of saying the film was "inspired by" rather than "based on" DADOES is fully justifiable. DADOES constructs a world based on Mercerism and empathy with all living things, with everybody trying to get off Earth a.s.a.p. (with an android to help you in the colony.) Having done this, it has to justify itself by telling a story. Blade Runner (ie the movie, not the book) takes the best aspects of the story and improves it beyond measure. However it totally ignores the basic premise of the book, as it has to. The idea behind the book is totally unfilmable. If you try to show Mercerism visually, it just doesn't come across. It is impossible to do complete justice to this book on film. Oddly enough, Ridley Scott's younger brother Tony took an unfilmable book and tried to film it. The result was the totally incomprehensible (unless you read the book first) The Hunger. Silas_Snake%Bradford.Central.CYBER1@ucl-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 86 22:33:22 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Frost) Subject: Re: Re: Dean Koontz Having read _Whispers_, _Darkfall_, and _Phantoms_, I feel qualified to say that Koontz does a better-than-average job at horror stories. All of these were excellent (in my opinion -- flame on) and were not obvious rewrites of the same novel with slightly different character names and scenery. Note that Darkfall had its share of SF embedded in it (the creature itself as well as the biological organism they used to take care of it). It fit quite well into the story line, but the book was definitely a horror story. Jim Frost UUCP: ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs BITNET: cscc71c@bostonu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 86 14:38 CDT From: Wilcox@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: The Initial Voyages of the Starship Enterprise Ditto on most of the ideas that wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu wrote in SF-Lovers V11 #271. "Prequels" of any sort are difficult to write and ST has to be especially tough as people tend to have their minds made up on what each character's personality traits are. I confess to having my having my eyes opened while reading McIntyre's novel. It's a good solid read and even if I detected a slight feminine slant in the writing, it certainly doesn't detract from the book too much. I enjoyed the few hints at future events, and especially a few of the deeper insights in to the characters of Hikaru Sulu, Lt. Uhura and a little mind melding with Mr. &#^@%*#()@ . Note: this is the best my keyboard can do at setting the name in print. Most of us know Mr. &#^@%*#()@ as Mr. Spock..... As far as Janice Rand's past goes, in the series I never got the impression that she she was the wimp McIntyre portrays her as. I understand that the emotional make up of a 16 year old is shaky at best, then to have endured the Star Fleet education on top of it all would bend anyone out of shape. I think ****SPOILER ***** the fact of her family's crash on a "slave planet" and subsequent escape is a little fantastic, but ** end spoiler** McIntyre didn't dwell on it too much, only during the little chat with Uhura. We did get a little hint at part of the next book as far as Janice is concerned, she's going let her hair grow into that ridiculous Dolly Parton tower of hair and be more self confident. I am curious about the "regen gel" and exactly how it got into Rand's roomie's shower (lt. Uhura and Dr. McCoy apparently know each other....) A did enjoy it though and look forward to the next initial voyage. ------------------------------ Date: 8 September 1986, 14:48:15 EDT From: "Brent T. Hailpern" <BTH@ibm.com> Subject: Enterprise: The First Adventure The book was well written and fun. I particularly enjoyed reading it immediately after reading ST III. Kirk's feelings toward his father are interesting in light of David's feelings toward Kirk in ST III. Rand is an interesting character in ETFA, probably one of the best developed characters in the book. One confusing point in my mind is that Chekov shows up in ETFA, but since he did not join until the second TV season it seems that he should not be on board (yet). I am also suprised that Sulu, who is just coming out of the academy, is a lieutenant (rather than an ensign) and is given a prime shift bridge position. In summary, for those who like Star Trek, it is well worth reading. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 86 20:05:28 GMT From: mtung!ijk@caip.rutgers.edu (Ihor Kinal) Subject: Tidal Forces - alignment of long bodies. Seeing all the articles on tidal forces caused me to remember the story by Larry Niven called, I belived, "Neutron Star." There, the hero went around a neutron star and was subjected to very intense tidal forces. The ship was forced to point directly in the direction of the star. When I tried to figure out the forces involved (versus a perpendicular configuration), I got bogged down in the math. I then looked at the problem differently, and by using the gravity potential, convinced myself that the said configuration was indeed the minimum energy one, and that the story was indeed correct (at least on that aspect). Likewise for water, the gravity potential indeed indicates tides both closer and away from the moon, with the mass of the moon clearly having an effect on the gradient and resulting tide size. Note that this tide - gravity potential exists even if the earth is NOT rotating. The rotation may have an effect in the timing of tides, but I'm not sure I believe it has a direct effect in the size, since the 'centrifugal force' is more or less uniform around the eath's circumference. Disclaimer: I COULD be wrong - it's been 20 years since my 1st year physic classes. Ihor Kinal ihnp4!mtung!ijk ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 86 22:24:06 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Frost) Subject: Clifford Simak _Time is the Simplest Thing_ Jerry Boyajian writes: >To answer another point that was brought up, Clifford Simak also >had written (20 years previously) a novel titled TIME AND AGAIN, >but there's no connection other than the title. Are you thinking of Simak's _Time is the Simplest Thing_? Or did he write two books dealing with time travel? I have read _Time is the Simplest Thing_, a novel about space travel via paranormal powers and time travel via techniques learned in trading one's mind with an alien (these details only to give you an idea of the book I am speaking of). To quote the alien, "Time is the simplest thing there is...." Jim Frost UUCP: ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs BITNET: cscc71c@bostonu ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 16:07:10 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: _Armor_, by John Steakley > you might enjoy a book called "Armor" by Steakley (sp?) which can > be seen as a grim rebuttal to RAH's view of interstellar war. Yes indeed, a very good book, and obviously an echo of _Starship_Troopers_. And, while _Armor_ and _Starship_Troopers_ give somewhat contrasting views of human expansionism and militarism, I enjoyed them both mightily. Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 22:23:26 GMT From: jeffr@sri-spam.ARPA (Jeff Rininger) Subject: Need Info On SF Story I once read a short story called (I think. . .) "On The Wall Of The Lodge", co-written by a man and a woman, perhaps husband and wife. As I remember it, this story appeared in an anthology edited by Robert Silverberg. If anyone remembers this story, and the anthology in which it appeared, would you please refresh my (alleged) mind ? I would very much like to find the story and re-read it. Thanks for your time. Jeff Rininger ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Sep 86 0931-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #295 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 17 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 295 Today's Topics: Television - Astro Boy & Dark Shadows & Ultraman & Underdog & Prince Planet & Star Trek & The Powers of Mathew Star (3 msgs) & Gerry Anderson Shows (3 msgs) & Bewitched (2 msgs) & Some More SF TV & Portraying Japanese ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 22:03:27 EDT From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@prophet.bbn.com> Subject: Lyrics to the ASTRO BOY TV show Well, here they are, as promised, the complete lyrics to the ASTRO BOY theme, as transcribed from a tape recording of the show. (Incidentally, the chorus of kids seems to be from New York or possibly Jersey, not surprising, since that's where the show was dubbed into English.) There you go, Astro Boy, On your flight into space. Rocket high through the sky. What adventures do you all day? Astro Boy, bombs away, On your mission today. It's the countdown and the blastoff. Everything is go, Astro Boy. Astro Boy, as you fly, Strange new worlds you will spy. Atom cells, jet-propelled, Fighting monsters high in the sky. Astro Boy, there you go, Will you find friend or foe? Cosmic ranger, laugh at danger, Everything is go, Astro Boy. Crowds will cheer you, You're a hero, As you go, go, GO, Astro Boy! (These are the opening lyrics. There is one other verse, sung at the very end of the closing credits, which are otherwise orchestral, and a slight rearrangement of the opening theme. Here's that last verse:) Astro Boy, jets okay, On your flight into space. What can I do to be like you And become a real Astro Boy? [Great stuff, huh? I always thought that they should have given Astro Girl her own show. She always had more personality than her stodgy brother.] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 08:51 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Dark Shadows Cc: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) If you can make a case for Green Acres being SF, you can certainly do the same with Dark Shadows, especially with their time travel, even into parallel time. I'm enjoying it vastly as it's now being syndicated in LA on Channel 56. I understand that it's been showing on New Jersey Network for the last 3 years, but has just been cancelled. Anyone have any news on that? Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 86 09:55:39 -0400 From: David Krewson <krewson@huey.udel.EDU> Subject: Ultraman The name of the human who can become Ultraman is Hayata (sp?). ("Using the Beta Capsule, Hayata becomes...ULTRAMAN!!). In addition to firing rays by crossing his hands, he could also put his hands together and squirt water (a handy feature for dealing with the fire-breathing monsters). Hayata is also a member of the Science Patrol (if memory serves), a bunch of people tracking the movement of monsters and other nasties about Japan. They all wore those orange velvet outfits with a tie and helmet. Dave Krewson ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 86 03:31:00 GMT From: cc-30@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Yoda: Follower of the Reverend Mother) Subject: Re: SF on TV (a total loser with superpowers) From: <PSST001%DTUZDV1.BitNet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> >Wasn't that a guy called Stanley Beamish ? He received his extra >powers like superstrength or ability to fly by special pills. That sounds more like Underdog to me (Shoe-shine Boy in disguise). Remember, Underdog always got his strength from his super Underdog vitamin pill that he kept in his ring. Eghads, I can hear Polly-Purebread singing "Oh where oh where has my Underdog gone?" allready... Sean Rouse ARPA: cc-30@cory.berkeley.edu UUCP: ucbvax!cory!cc-30 USnail: 2299 Piedmont Ave #315, Berkeley, Ca 94720 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 15:05:33 EDT From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@prophet.bbn.com> Subject: SF TV Shows Ah, PRINCE PLANET! One of my favorites, although I didn't see an episode until I was in college, and haven't seen one since. (Like ASTRO BOY, it's in black and white, and so tends not to be shown on TV anymore.) For anyone who cares, it was one of the first Japanese cartoons to jump on the bandwagon created by ASTRO BOY, and the basic premise was similar to that of the Lensmen or Green Lantern. Prince Planet was sent to Earth by the Galactic Union, headquartered on the planet Radion, to observe our planet for one year. At the end of this time, he would report back to the Union as to whether Earth should be invited to join. In the meantime, he engaged in the usual superhero stuff. At the end of the show, in an episode I never got to see (preempted by a Chicago White Sox game), he did indeed go back to Radion. What was interesting about the show was that its hero was clearly mentally ill. He was terribly homesick, and at least once was suicidally depressed, almost getting himself killed by refusing to use his medallion's powers. He had an Oedipal streak a mile wide, and often dreamed about his mother, who bore an uncanny resemblance to the Earth girl in whose home he was living. At least two of the major villains were into B & D, and one of them once captured the Earth girl to be the consort of the ruler of another planet (white slavery, anyone?). Refreshingly, however, he finally killed off one of his two greatest enemies by sneaking up on him from behind and blasting him while the villain was exulting in his triumph. I'd love to see the show again. Incidentally, I think there's a verse missing from the PP theme Andrew Siegel posted, but I can't remember the words to it. Unlike the ASTRO BOY theme, the music is uninspired, and the lyrics have escaped me. Miscellany: My favorite JONNY QUEST episode was the one with the invisible monster that they painted bright pink. I believe the Daily Planet Building in the SUPERMAN TV series was played by the L.A. Times Building. (Type casting.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 15:21 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: century of Star Trek >Some more evidence for the 22nd-century theory: in "Tomorrow is >Yesterday", when they go back to the 1960s, and Kirk is captured by >the guards in that army base and tells them the truth about how he >got in there ("I just popped out of thin air"), one of them yells >at him: "We'll send you to jail for the next 200 years", and he >then murmurs: "that should be about enough". Yeah, isn't it interesting that Kirk's lines, while humorous, seemed to be all literally true. Resulting in lots of interesting fannish speculation on the line "I'm a little green man from Alpha Century -- beautiful place, you ought to see it!" That's one of the reasons I loved the pro novel: Crisis on Centaurus -- it explains that. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 23:55:21 GMT From: cae780!louann@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: SF-TV programs I also remember a show called Mathew Star, about a teenager who is a prince from another planet. He is in hiding on Earth until he can attain full use of his mental powers with the help of his teacher. Does anyone else remember this series. I think it was on for about 2 seasons. Lou Ann louann@cae780 ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 86 20:34:08 GMT From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs I think the name of the show was Star Prince. It lasted for about 1/2 a season. I don't remember who played the lead. But I think I remember seeing Amy Steel play his girlfriend, and Lou Gossett playing his mentor. It had a few god moments, but mostly it wasn't anything special. This show came out about the same time as another short lived sci-fi series called The Phoenix. It starred Judson Scott as an ancient starman burried in a Mayan tomb. He had special powers which he got from the sun. The entire series duration was about 6 wks. I think it was up against Dallas in its prime, so it didn't stand a chance. It was however one of the few sci-fi series that concentrated on the characters more then the special effects, and was rather well written if a little boring. Phil Paone ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 86 23:36:31 GMT From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone) Subject: Re: SF-TV programs Now I remember. The original name was Star Prince. That was changed to the name the series eventually had: The Powers of Mathew Star. Phil Paone ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 03:33:04 GMT From: hropus!jrw@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Webb) Subject: Re: Old SF-tv (Anderson) > I remember a show call _U.F.O._ when I was much younger, does > anyone remember the show, the cast members? I think the bad guys > organization was something like "SHADO"? Any help will be > appreciated. Sure, it was one of Anderson's early shows. A truly British production. I do not remember any names of the cast members, but the special effects were adequate for the time, I guess. The good guys' ships were tiny craft, with a giant missile protruding from their nose. They were launched from moon bases against typical looking flying saucers. Speaking of Anderson, he did some intriguing shows with, hell, they weren't puppets, but I hope you know what I mean. I remember one about this family how lived on this island and had all these rockets and aircraft that were numbered. One of them was this sort of flying box car that could carry differing payloads in its belly. It stood over a moving conveyer belt that moved the various pods underneath. Another rocket shot out from under their swimming pool, that slid aside to allow it to shot past. This show also had a "CloudBase" or something with female rocket fighter pilots, or was that another show? Oh well, sorry for the ramble... Jim Webb ...!ihnp4!hropus!jrw ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 20:30:11 GMT From: ihlpf!rtradm@caip.rutgers.edu (Vangsness) Subject: Old Sci-fi TV (Anderson) To the best of my knowledge, Gerry Anderson produced the following TV shows: Supercar (used Marrionetes instead of real people) Fireball XL5 (Marrionettes) Stingray (Marionettes) Thunderbirds (marrionettes) Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons (marionettes, never shown in Chicago???) Joe 90 (Marionettes, never shown in Chicago????) UFO (used real people!) Space 1999 (used real people) I understand that Gerry divorced his wife ( who was his partner in most of his projects, and he is now using Marionnettes again). He is supposed to have produced a show called "Terrahawks" and is now working on a show called "Secret Police". I thought all the Anderson stuff was great when I was a kid. Are these new shows a reality? Bob Neumann ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 86 06:16:02 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: UFO UFO was another effort by Jerry and Sylvia Anderson. The premise was that UFO's were attacking Earth in hopes of conquest. To avoid panic, a top- secret defense network was devised called SHADO (Supreme Headquarters, Alien Defense Organization). Let's see. Another acronym was the satellite named SID--Space Intruder Detector. The action seemed to take place in three main areas--moon base, the main headquarters, and on board a submarine. They had severl methods of destroying the UFO's--manned one- shots originating from Moon Base, a flying sub launched from the submarine, and mobile tanks. In addition, they had some sort of bazooka-like affair. A number of neat models. I was watching the show in 8th grade, which would make it around 1971 (I may have slipped a year or so somewhere). I think the show was supposed to take place around 1995. In one of the shows, moon base was stumbled upon by a wandering prospector, so space travel wasn't limited to the UFO hunters. The show looked designed to sell models--they had the manned one-shot space ships, the submarine with its detachable flying nose, the mobiles, the earth-moon shuttle, their turbine cars, and the UFOs. I don't remember seeing any models over here--perhaps some appeared in England? Was UFO Jerry and Sylvia Anderson's first live-actor series? Before that they did a number of marionette films. After that they did Space: 1999. I don't remember seeing any of the principle actors in anything else (I take that back. One of the moon base operators was rather cute. I think she showed up in an Avengers episode. Gabrielle something?). david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 86 03:53:35 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: I Dream of Jeannie Re two Tony Nelsons As far as I know, there was only one actor playing Tony Nelson. However, I heard something about a tv movie remake last year. They might have gotten someone else for that. There were two Darren's in Bewitched--Dick Sargeant and Dick York, I think. Someone told me that they had a different Ginger in the Gilligan's Island movies. Have I drifted far enough asea yet? I was trying to figure out the influences behind I Dream of Jeannie and Bewitched the other day. Bewitched sounds a lot like _Bedazzled_, but has nothing at all in common with it. A bit more like _Bell, Book, and Candle_, including the practical joker of a brother. I remember a much older movie (at least, I think it was much older), where a witch and her father try to haunt this young bachelor. The witch slips a love potion in the bachelor's water, to make the bachelor fall in love with her to make it easier to ruin him. Unfortunately, the witch happens to drink the water. I don't remember the title of this one. I Dream of Jeannie seems to owe a lot to _The Brass Bottle_. It's clearly not based on it, though. david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 86 14:48:35 GMT From: lcuxlm!bjg@caip.rutgers.edu (Goldner Barbara) Subject: Re: SF on TV > Stevens, and her husband Darren was played by two different actors > in different seasons. (And for the really obscure trivia fans, > their daughter was named Tabitha, and Samantha's mother was Endora > - now, who played *her*?) Agnes Moorehead played Endora. bg ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 86 05:52:26 GMT From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Old SF-tv My old SF tv list: UFO- Some interesting speculative stuff. Anyone else ever see the toys? Lost in Space Superman The Time Tunnel It's About Time Avengers -- late "Emma Peel" episodes have lots of SF elements Stingray Ultraman -- we used to watch this and simply howl. Zweck!?! Marine Boy - yes, it's Oxygum Land of the Giants Space Ghost (?) -- Sat. cartoon circa 1968? And now for the two mytery guests: There was a Japanese cartoon featuring a (robot?) kid with "hair" that stuck up in two points on the side of his head. He had rockets in his shoes. Anyone remember the name? Even more obscure: on Ranger Hal (WTOP in DC; I don't believe it saw any sort of national distribution) there were occasional episodes of this odd sort of space show which I remember very little about. The only thing I remember is that the spaceships bore a remarkable resemblance to the "Pigs In Space" ship without the engines. I believe there was a hole in the "snout". Does anyone have the slightest idea what I'm talking about? C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 18:59:25 GMT From: usl!elg@caip.rutgers.edu (Eric Lee Green) Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory? >This isn't only true of Macross, but of EVERY Japanese animated >I've seen. also. (BTW, see how they portray Japanese? Short, fat, >balding, eyes set to either side of their _nostrils_, pug noses, >etc.? What kind of self- image do these people have?) > >It seems this is true of all Japanese films, in fact of many >Oriental films. I suspect that the Japanese have cashed in on American racism by shipping us films which appeal to our own self-image as the "superior race" and laughing all the way to the bank. I wonder if anybody ever picked up on the anti-Americanism in Godzilla-type movies? Just think about it for awhile... a huge, ugly monster comes crashing in from the west, and reduces Tokyo to rubble with flames and brute force... remember the fire bombings, etc.? Eric Green {akgua,ut-sally}!usl!elg (Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191, Lafayette, LA 70509) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Sep 86 1008-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #296 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 17 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 296 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Sep 86 23:07:50 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Frost) Subject: Re: _Alien_ and _Aliens_ From: Wes Miller <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA> > I saw ALIEN the first or second day it came out in Boston. > There was an additional 5 minutes or so of extra film that was cut > out of some of the other versions, including the Laser copy I own. > I positively remember that the exploration scenes on the alien > ship were much longer and I specifically remember seeing the crew > find the beacon. It was located in the wall in the same room where > the dead pilot was and was behind a 'glass' case. The beacon > looked much like a phonograph and I do recall that the crew shut > off the beacon before the incident with the face hugger. Did > anyone else recall this version? Or was it another movie? I positively remember the same scene. I did not, however, ever see the original _Alien_ in a theatre, but only on HBO and/or Cinemax. I am only so sure that I saw it in the movie because the movie's picture of the thing was much different than what I had imagined in the book. I remember the exact scene described by Wes, so it could not be just too-vivid memory from the books description. Anyone else remember it too? On to more recent creatures: jayembee (above) posted another article tearing apart sdcc12!st94wb about his statements that Jones is the carrier of a spore-like alien form. I stand beside jayembee on this one -- there was absolutely no evidence (book or movie) that indicates the presence of yet another form of the alien. If there is another sequel, it might be of yet another ship coming across the vessel with the eggs (as someone else said, they never make it clear whether or not they nuke the original site), or maybe colonists/explorers coming upon the original planet. (There may not be an original planet anymore -- if those creatures were designed, as they probably were to be so effective, the race that did it had obvious suicidal tendencies and probably nuked themselves into oblivion.) In another point brought up by jsgray@watdragon.UUCP: >The queen hid in the structure of the troop ship, and survived the >vacuum of space on the trip to the mother ship. The queen could have hidden within the landing-gear's storage area. The landing gear was exposed and had obvious openings into which a queen with her race's contortionist methods could have crawled. I can't remember where the queen eventually came out of (or did they ever show you), but this could be the case. Another point, that was a military ship. There are always other entrances into a military ship, in case they are needed by the military personnel. On a space-going ship, why couldn't there be access panels that mantain life-support in order to allow soldiers to get in the fast without having to go through the airlock? Better, there were probably gun ports or ammunition storage areas that may have been pressurized and accessible to the outside. Possibilities beside, there is no proof that the queen survived the trip up _in_a_vaccuum_. She could have been quite comfortable. Jim Frost UUCP: ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs BITNET: cscc71c@bostonu ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 86 17:20:26 GMT From: crash!adamsd@caip.rutgers.edu (Adams Douglas) Subject: Re: ALIENS - Ripley grabs loader... The actual dialogue in the scene is: RIPLEY Lieutenant, what do those weapons fire? GORMAN Ten-millimeter explosive-tipped caseless. Standard light armor-piercing round. Why? They _are_ explicitly stated to be explosive tipped. Adams Douglas ARPA:crash!adamsd@nosc.arpa UUCP:adamsd@crash.uucp JPL/NASA MaBell:818-354-3076 ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 86 15:28:17 GMT From: teddy!svb@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen V. Boyle) Subject: Re: ALIENS - Ripley grabs loader... My original question still stands, i.e "Was any mention made of it being incendiary or explosive...". Caseless ammunition is different from conventional ammunition only in the packaging of the propellant. From what I've read of the trials and tribulations of various manufacturers trying to produce caseless ammunition, I would concur that the weapons in question are indeed future weapons :=). In the statement in question, I was wondering if I missed one of the points of explanation that seemed to be required to explain a key premise. To wit: The aliens, which were defined as very efficient killing machines in the first movie, could be effectively fought with an approximation of 19th century conventional weapons. My point in asking the question was that there was a significant amount of destruction resulting from hits from a 10mm slug, much more than would be expected from either the slug size or the apparent recoil of the weapons. A typical automatic weapon would be expected to impart a muzzle velocity in the range of ~ 1500 feet per second ( give or take a few hundred fps). The effects of 9-12mm slugs are well documented at this class of velocities, and would not explain the apparent effects on creatures such as the aliens with their exo- skeletons. It would seem that in order to cause the destruction evident, either the slug would have to travel at a higher velocity, or the slug is explosive, etc. Assuming that the ammunition is not explosive or incendiary, (which is the point I'm trying to resolve), the slugs would have to be traveling at a higher velocity than is currently prevalent in conventional weapons. The only way this could be accomplished in a conventional weapon would be by substantially increasing the reactive force, i.e., recoil. I suppose it could be postulated that there would be some sort of recoil-absorbing device such as inertial damping, etc., but the military tends to keep field weapons, especially sidearms and light automatic weapons, as mechanically simple as possible. (No comments on the early M14, M-16, etc. :=) When I watch a movie (or read a story), I tend to accept the descriptions of events, physiology, tools, etc. as they are presented. It is certainly sometimes easier to explain situations and events by postulating many things, but I prefer to assume that the {author, director} made plain all of the assumptions and explanations underlying the story. I feel that succesfully explaining things within the context of the story makes it much more satisfying. Still waiting for the sequel(s) Steve Boyle {decvax, cbosgd, mit-eddie, linus, masscomp}!genrad!teddy!svb ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 86 18:40:25 GMT From: dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) Subject: Re: _Alien_ and _Aliens_ >Possibilities beside, there is no proof that the queen survived the >trip up _in_a_vaccuum_. She could have been quite comfortable. At then end of the original ALIENS, Mr Alien seemed quite comfortable in vacuum as he attempted to climb back into the escape craft after the lock was blown, until Ripley decided to engage the thrusters. Matt ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 86 13:55:11 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!eric@caip.rutgers.edu (Eric Cotton) Subject: Re: ALIENS THEORY oz@yetti.UUCP (Ozan Yigit) writes: >Hmm. Maybe not. In my second viewing, I noticed that the queen was >actually hiding *inside* the landing leg cavity. And also, if we >can suspend our belief long enough to accept that a >several-ton-heavy queen hanging off ripley's leg for several >seconds under extreme air pressure without tearing her apart, than >we can assume that the landing feet cavities are not exposed to >vacuum, thus queen survives. However: The landing legs would have been down *before* the landing bay was pressurized. Thus the queen would have been exposed to a vaccuum for (at least) a brief period. Further, if the landing leg cavity was indeed pressurized, wouldn't the queen have been ejected by the escaping air? Eric Cotton UUCP: {ihnp4|allegra|seismo|pyramid!amiga}!cbmvax!eric ARPA: cbmvax!eric@seismo US mail: Commodore Technology 1200 Wilson Drive West Chester, PA 19380 phone: (215) 431-9180 ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 86 02:19:05 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Frost) Subject: Re: Re: ALIENS - Ripley grabs loader... >My original question still stands, i.e "Was any mention made of it >being incendiary or explosive...". Caseless ammunition is different >from conventional ammunition only in the packaging of the >propellant. From what I've read of the trials and tribulations of >various manufacturers trying to produce caseless ammunition, I >would concur that the weapons in question are indeed future weapons >:=). Ah! But are they refering to caseless as in no cases for the explosive, or caseless as in unjacketed shells? Consider: If they are propelled by an electromagnetic pulse (or series of pulses), you do not need any normal propellant. You cou could pack a lot of punch in that little clip if you aren't using chemical propellant, and thus have no need for any kind of propellant case. I thought about the noise the guns made, too. You'd think that an electrically propelled shell would make vary little niose, right? Remember those shells are *moving!* They'll still produce a decent shock pattern even without the added noise of chemical propellants. Also, I believe there was a lot of smoke produced by the weapons in the movie. But those were specifically said to be explosive-tipped armor piercing shells (which, BTW, would make a mess of just about anything), so this smoke could very well have been the result of the explosive tips. Those of you who don't remember them saying they were explosive tipped, look for a posting where somebodyorother gave the exact dialogue. I don't recall if the weapons flashed, but I suppose they could be using some sort of tracer mechanism (eg magnesium strip ignited as it passed through the barrel), though this would leave a streak and not a flash, I would think. These *are* future weapons, so you can assume any changes they made would be improvements. Think of the advantages of using a non-explosive, non-mechanical method of propulsion: * Almost no wear on the barrel * Better spin by providing a magnetic field rotation perpendicular to the barrel direction. This is complicated machinery, but you could easily get rotations immensely faster than most rifles today, giving great accuracy with only a short barrel. * REAL high output speeds and quantities, since there is no problem with cooling off the barrel. * Very compact magazines, since all you need is the shell and some sort of feader mechanism (or you could use something more complicated so that almost all the space in the magazine is used by shells). * Almost no deviation of barrel direction during firing (ie, no pull off to the side, since there should be no inconsistencies in blast force as there must be in a rifled barrel). * Nearly no mechanical parts to wear out or jam, except in the feeder mechanism, which doesn't have to worry about ejecting spent shells anyway. * No carbon buildup from propellant, since the propellant is all electrical. * Happier soldiers, who hated cleaning their rifles all the time anyway. As for possible problems, I suppose that needing a power source is one. There are lots of possibilities to that one, though, including a power source contained in the clip that contains enough power to shoot the shells in the magazine. Note that you don't need a high-output source which delivers for an extended period of time, only one which can provide adequate pulsing. Also, you can fit the power source in the spare area within the shell that can't be filled by round shells. This might be why they'd want to save the magazines as well -- they'd be expensive. (Note that this isn't a novel idea -- anyone out there have a Polaroid instant camera? They do exactly this, with a real flat battery in the film pack.) Also, there'd be lots of spare space (say, in the butt) for a pretty good power source, maybe a fission source or something either better or simpler. I can't remember if there was a butt on those guns, but you'd still have the grip under the barrel and the handgrip to work with anyway. For those of you who don't understand what I mean by electromagnetic propulsion, it would work just like a linear accelerator, on a much smaller scale. Somebody at some university made a small one to test to see if they could send things into orbit with it. This was written in a magazine I read, probably _Science Digest_ or _Discover_, a few years back. My memory isn't quite good enough to give a complete description; sorry. Anyway, you set up a series of rings which produce a magnetic field. By pulsing them, you can get it to push or pull about any ferrous material. By doing this in sequence, you can get quite an acceleration. Yes, it *does* take lots of power, but I'm sure they'll find a way to do it somehow. Just another theory about their weaponry. Probably I've made some theoretical errors, but what the heck -- I'm a SF nut, not a military weapons expert. Let them aliens have it! Jim Frost UUCP: ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs BITNET: cscc71c@bostonu ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 86 03:46:03 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Frost) Subject: Re: Re: _Alien_ and _Aliens_ >>Possibilities beside, there is no proof that the queen survived >>the trip up _in_a_vaccuum_. She could have been quite >>comfortable. > > At then end of the original ALIENS, Mr Alien seemed quite >comfortable in vacuum as he attempted to climb back into the escape >craft after the lock was blown, until Ripley decided to engage the >thrusters. Ah, but remember -- he was not exposed to explosive decompression, thus sparing him from fast vaccuum effects, and the slower ones (like the bends and oxygen deprivation, or whatever the thing breathed) had no time to take effect before he got cooked. I'm not sure what the time is for a human to be pretty well incapacitated by a reasonably quick but non-explosive decompression, but I think it's at least ten or fifteen seconds. Obviously, this thing is tougher than we are, and it may be designed (yes, I do think it was designed -- can we meet its makers in the next one?) to handle short periods of decompression, since it seems unlikely that periods of one-half hour or so would be too survivable by any conceivable organism (at least one so versatile as the alien -- you gotta draw the line somewhere) above the microorganism size. (Microorganisms sometimes go into a spore-like state where they can survive all kinds of things.) The trip upward took a little while, and the ship was orbiting outside the atmosphere (this is in the book, but should be obvious in the movie) so that even though it did not undergo an explosive decompression, it did undergo an extensive one if it was outside the ship. I admit it is a possibility that the thing was outside, but I believe in probabilities -- it was much more probable that it survived in a cubby of some kind, probably in the landing gear. Someone else mentioned that they thought it came out of there, and I thought so too, but maybe it just hid there when the ship was landing. Jim Frost UUCP: ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs BITNET: cscc71c@bostonu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Sep 86 1456-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #297 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 19 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 297 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Aug 86 12:57:31 GMT From: m128abo@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Michael Ellis) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) One possibility for transgalactic travel would require sweeping up *entire stars* in order to maintain constant {ac,de}celeration until one arrived at one's destination. Presumably, stellar engineers would forge black holes out of the material of many suns into some peculiar geometry. If GR permits such things, the truly cosmic traveller might wish to never stop accelerating, and, by gulping up ever larger quantities of stellar material, ultimately develop a voracious appetite for galaxies, clusters of galaxies, and so forth.. Perhaps one could thus waste the entire universe, thereby participating as an active agent in the ultimate apocolypse, assuming a closed cosmology. michael ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 86 16:56:27 GMT From: csustan!smdev@caip.rutgers.edu (Scott Hazen Mueller) Subject: Re: Decompression (was Alien&Aliens) madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) writes: >Ah, but remember -- he was not exposed to explosive decompression, >[...edited, SHM] I'm not sure what the time is for a human to be >pretty well incapacitated by a reasonably quick but non-explosive >decompression, but I think it's at least ten or fifteen seconds. >Obviously, this thing is tougher than we are, and Any number of SF stories (sorry, I can't remember any names, but I think that Arthur Clarke did one once) deal with incidents where humans are exposed to vacuum for a short period and survive. Obviously, these are emergency situations. The usual consequences are burst capillaries and sunburn, with the prime danger (besides suffocation) being destruction of bodily organs by internal pressure and the boiling of one's blood (also the bends, I think). If these Aliens are exoskeletal (I didn't see either movie), then they would be better able to handle low-pressure/vacuum situations. (BTW, another humans-in-vacuum scene occurs in Sheffields (?) Roker&McAndrew series...) Scott Hazen Mueller City of Turlock 901 South Walnut Avenue Turlock, CA 95380 lll-crg.arpa!csustan!smdev work: (209) 668-5590 or 5628 home: (209) 527-1203 ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 86 18:13:48 GMT From: teddy!svb@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen V. Boyle) Subject: Re: Re: ALIENS - Ripley grabs loader... madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) writes: >Ah! But are they refering to caseless as in no cases for the >explosive, or caseless as in unjacketed shells? Consider: If they >are propelled by an electromagnetic pulse (or series of pulses), >you do not need any normal propellant. You cou could pack a lot of >punch in that little clip if you aren't using chemical propellant, >and thus have no need for any kind of propellant case. Now there's a neat set of design theories. Very interesting. I assumed that caseless referred to the propellant charge, one way thsi has been done is to form the propellant into a cup shape, surrounding the projectile on the bottom and the circumference, like so: ____________ | | | |PP | |PPP | |PP |___________| Where the Ps represent the nose of the projectile. I could see another objection to the use of conventional propellent weapons in the future. The propellent would have to include the oxidizer, since there is a good possibility the weapons would be used in vacuum. Now there's a pretty problem. >electrically propelled shell would make vary little niose, right? >Remember those shells are *moving!* They'll still produce a decent >shock pattern even without the added noise of chemical propellants. Right, since anything over ~1000 fps (in air) is supersonic. However this effect is not as noticeable as the noise produced by the propellant, more like a short, sharp 'crack'. >I don't recall if the weapons flashed, but I suppose they could be >using some sort of tracer mechanism (eg magnesium strip ignited as >it passed through the barrel), though this would leave a streak and >not a flash, I would think. I remember the weapons producing a muzzle flash, as opposed to tracer streaks. (Although this could have been a case of seeing what I expected to see, or the limits of technology that were used in the production of the film.) >These *are* future weapons, so you can assume any changes they made >would be improvements. >source contained in the clip that contains enough power to shoot the Strong possibility, since the magazines were especially noted as expensive. (They must be very expensive, even current magazines are expensive, and they're considered throwaways.) Also, the magazines that Vasquez(?) pulled out of her pocket for her and her buddy were very compact for the class of weapon (medium automatic). >Just another theory about their weaponry. Probably I've made some >theoretical errors, but what the heck -- I'm a SF nut, not a >military weapons expert. Maybe you ought to be, you have some real good ideas! >Let them aliens have it! Absolutely. I also like the idea of meeting the aliens' makers. Steve Boyle {decvax, cbosgd, mit-eddie, masscomp, linus}!genrad!teddy!svb ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 86 04:04:10 GMT From: NICXU@CUNYVM.BITNET Subject: Re: aliens...original idea? Speaking of which, has anyone read the book ""Spinner"" by Doris Piczercia (SP?). I think that the Alien in there was quite the the model for the Nasty in "Alien" and "Aliens". Points that compare: 1) Both had nasty slime that solidified and held people in place. 2) Both planted their young on humans. 3) Both needed only one Queen to start an entire new generation. 4) Both had razor sharp appendages, were real strong 5) Both were Humanoid in shape 6) Both preferred their hosts alive. There were difference too, I'll admit, but the similarities seem a little too many to reconcile easily with. I don't remember which came first, off- hand, but it would be interesting to check (which I will do first chance I get). Yossie Silverman YOSSIE@BITNIC.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 24 Aug 86 06:27:02 GMT From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) writes: >Now wait just a second -- that's not quite what Adams is saying >(i.e. that the theoretical limit can be exceeded.) I admit it >wasn't well phrased, but what he is saying is that if you are >willing to accept a 35-1 mass ratio you can still do it: 35-1 != >impossible. I don't know about this. To say that the limit can be "violated" seems to say that you can do better than the 35:1 ratio. Maybe we should let Frank clarify what he meant (I've been waiting for this for several days now...). I agree that 35-1 is not the same as impossible. >> I don't deny this possibility, which is why I explicitly stated >>that the calculation applies only to ships powered by onboard >>fuel. Note, though, that the fuel available to be picked up is >>hydrogen and other matter -- since it can only be fused, rather >>than converted directly to energy, the efficiency is much lower. >>I'll try to do a calculation on the amount of hydrogen that has to >>be collected to power such a ship. I suspect it will be >>impractically large. > >Gee David, I didn't realize you knew so much about 100 percent >conversion drives and such -- tell me, what is the usual fuel for >100 percent mass-conversion? What is it about the protons and >electrons in hydrogen that makes them so much more intractable? Matter and antimatter in equal quantities. You can't convert ordinary matter by itself into energy. I will admit however that it might be betrte to do somewhat better than fusing the hydrogen into iron -- there should be some additional release of energy if, for example, you could collapse the residue into neutronium. This is getting into the realm of the extremely unlikely, but I have to admit that I'm not sure what the absolute *theoretical* limit would be (in contrast to the rocket drive, where there is a clear physical limit). David desJardins ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 86 21:13:43 GMT From: amdcad!phil@caip.rutgers.edu (Phil Ngai) Subject: Re: ALIENS - Ripley grabs loader... svb@teddy.UUCP (Stephen V. Boyle) writes: >A typical automatic weapon would be expected to impart a muzzle >velocity in the range of ~ 1500 feet per second ( give or take a >few hundred fps). The effects of 9-12mm slugs are well documented >at this class of velocities, and would not explain the apparent >effects on creatures such as the aliens with their exo- skeletons. >It would seem that in order to cause the destruction evident, >either the slug would have to travel at a higher velocity, or the >slug is explosive, etc. Assuming that the ammunition is not >explosive or incendiary, (which is the point I'm trying to >resolve), the slugs would have to be traveling at a higher velocity >than is currently prevalent in conventional weapons. I don't know about your 1500 fps muzzle velocity figure. The M-16A1 5.56mm/.223 Cal rifle has a muzzle velocity of 3,712 fps. The M-14 7.62mm/.308 Cal rifle has a muzzle velocity of 3,198 fps. The Browning M-2 .50 Cal/12.7mm machine gun can fire the M-8 armour piercing, incendiary round at a muzzle velocity of 2,930 fps. At 1,000 yards, it can penetrate an inch of armour plate. Of course, the M-2 weighs 84 pounds. But the M-16 is nothing to sneeze at. 2 Let's recall K= mv -- 2 Note the squaring of velocity. By contrast, the Colt .45 Cal pistol fires rounds with a muzzle velocity of 830 fps. It wouldn't be that surprising for a conventional M-16 to neutralize a target which is not stopped by a pistol. How tough can the alien's exoskeleton be, anyway? Phil Ngai +1 408 749 5720 UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!phil ARPA: amdcad!phil@decwrl.dec.com ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 86 21:25:27 GMT From: amdcad!phil@caip.rutgers.edu (Phil Ngai) Subject: Re: Re: ALIENS - Ripley grabs loader... svb@teddy.UUCP (Stephen V. Boyle) writes: >Where the Ps represent the nose of the projectile. I could see >another objection to the use of conventional propellent weapons in >the future. The propellent would have to include the oxidizer, >since there is a good possibility the weapons would be used in >vacuum. Now there's a pretty problem. Uh, current propellents, both gunpowder (which is rarely used by the military for several reasons) and smokeless powders (nitro based) are already self sufficient. Gunpowder of course is based on potassium nitrate, a powerful oxidizer. The nitro based systems don't rely on combustion but rather release energy from the breaking of chemical bonds. I suppose rail guns seem really cool but I wonder about the energy density and discharge rate of smokeless powders vs any possible battery required to operate such futuristic weapons. Since rail guns use such powerful magnetic fields, what happens when two are used close to each other? Do they attract or repell each other (strongly!)? What does the magnetic field do to other electronics carried by the soldier? Also, since the aliens had such strong acids available (their blood could easily eat through the floors and the soldier's armour) why didn't they just melt down any doors in their way? Phil Ngai +1 408 749 5720 UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!phil ARPA: amdcad!phil@decwrl.dec.com ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 86 21:11:31 GMT From: tdawson@wheaton (Tony Dawson) Subject: A Quick Aliens Question: When Ripley & co. make their "drop" from the mother ship we see the cloud-covered planet through the open air lock. BUT when Ripley blows the Queen out of the same lock we see a star field. Did I miss something? Who or what moved the ship? Was it not the same air lock? (I saw the movie twice and verified that there were clouds in the drop scene). Tony Dawson ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 86 20:01:36 GMT From: ahh@h.cc.purdue.edu (Brentrock of Hyperborea) Subject: Re: Re: ALIENS - Ripley grabs loader... As I recall from the movie, didn't they have an extension of some sort on the end of the magazine? The receiver of the rifle ended flat, and the magazine was inserted with the thickening on the end (about the size of a pistol handgrip, perpendicular to the upright part of the magazine that held the shells) mating with the end of the receiver to form a sort of "streamlined" whole. Could that be the power supply? It *was* mentioned that the marines were supposed to recover the used magazines because they were expensive. Having a high-density power supply in each one is a good reason for expense, eh? Brent Woods USENET: {seismo, decvax, ucbvax, ihnp4}!pur-ee!h.cc!ahh ARPANET: woodsb@el.ecn.purdue.edu BITNET: PODUM@PURCCVM USNAIL: Brent Woods Box 1004 Cary West Lafayette, IN 47906 PHONE: (317) 495-2011 ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 86 02:56:35 GMT From: styx!mcb@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch) Subject: Re: A Quick Aliens Question (clouds through open air lock) tdawson@wheaton (Tony Dawson) writes: > When Ripley & co. make their "drop" from the mother ship we see > the cloud-covered planet through the open air lock. BUT when > Ripley blows the Queen out of the same lock we see a star field. > Did I miss something? Who or what moved the ship? Was it not the > same air lock? (I saw the movie twice and verified that there were > clouds in the drop scene). I've seen the movie only once and don't have the novelization, but I can think of several reasons: 1. The ship is probably over a different part of the planet! It is NOT likely to be in a synchronous orbit; these are quite high orbits (22,000 + miles in the case of earth) and highly unsuitable for planetary drops. 2. The ship is in a different attitude with respect to the planet. In free-fall, spacecraft tend to change attitude quite often. 3. The sky cleared over that section of the planet. It happens. 4. It's a different airlock, on the other end of the ship. I'm sure I could come up with a few more, but #1 is the most plausible. Michael C. Berch ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA UUCP: {ihnp4,dual,sun}!lll-lcc!styx!mcb ------------------------------ Date: 14 Sep 86 22:37:32 GMT From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas Cox) Subject: Alien Behavior -- ripoff? >Speaking of which, has anyone read the book ""Spinner"" by Doris >Piczercia (SP?). I think that the Alien in there was quite the the >model for the Nasty in "Alien" and "Aliens". > >Points that compare: > >1) Both had nasty slime that solidified and held people in place. >2) Both planted their young on humans. >3) Both needed only one Queen to start an entire new generation. >4) Both had razor sharp appendages, were real strong >5) Both were Humanoid in shape >6) Both preferred their hosts alive. Long on SF and short on biology. Actually, it may be you're right, and I'm the one who's out of it by not having read "Spinner." But I've wanted to make some comparisons between Alien behavior and that of many terrestrial bugs. o Spiders: webs, exoskeletons, wrap up prey and keep a while [though dead]. o [some] Wasps: grab certain animals, keep them ALIVE and plant young on bodies to feed. Exoskeletons, too. It's bothered me that, unlike either of the above, the Aliens have two forms that alternate generations. Adult killer Alien is followed by face-hugger [or Beta-Creature]. This second stage is necessary in the Aliens' reproduction, remember -- the Adult can NOT produce other Adults, only [some of them can produce] Beta Creatures. And the Betas then implant the host body with a fetal Adult. All this reminds me of certain plants and, believe it or not, jellyfish, which alternate [hope I have this right] medusa and polyp forms over the generations. Quite weird. Thomas Cox ...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Sep 86 1517-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #298 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 19 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 298 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Delany & Forward & Hawke & Plauger (2 msgs) & Tepper & Baen Book Club & Columnists (2 msgs) & Responses to Requests (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Sep 86 01:23:07 GMT From: lzaz!psc@caip.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: The APPRENTICE ADEPT trilogy by Piers Anthony SPLIT INFINITY, BLUE ADEPT, JUXTAPOSITION: novels, Piers Anthony, 1980, 1981, 1982. Roughly 250 pages each. In a world of science, serfs have everything but freedom: in place of that, they have the Game. In a world of magic, the inhabitants have everything except power; that's reserved to the Adepts. My twelve-year-old got these as a gift, and when he was grounded for a few weeks, well, he found time to read them. He recommended them to me. As pure entertainment, it was okay. But the plot seemed to follow Anthony's convenience, not its own course. (It has the worst deus ex machina since Varley's MILLENNIUM.) None of the characters come alive: certainly not Stile, not his too many loves, not his uncountable enemies. The Game has some interesting bits, but I didn't appreciate hearing the rules of *every* competition. Nor could I believe how often Stile won. And I wish Anthony could have injected a *little* humor into a duet of two musicians playing Beethoven's Ninth Symphony on harmonicas. Not bad if you need something to read in the car while waiting for the auto club to bring help. If you want to leave your brain turned on through the entire performance, choose something else. (But my twelve- year-old liked it.) Paul S. R. Chisholm UUCP: {ihnp4,cbosgd,pegasus,mtgzz}!lznv!psc AT&T Mail: !psrchisholm Internet: mtgzz!lznv!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 86 07:55:55 GMT From: cs1!cbcscmst@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael Steven Temkin) Subject: Piers Anthony Back in May I was informed that the next book in the Bio series would be out in Mid July along with the paperback version of Tangled Skien. Does anyone know what happened? ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 86 18:54:00 GMT From: hp-pcd!everett@caip.rutgers.edu (everett) Subject: Re: Samuel Delany Quite early on I read several stories by Delany, and enjoyed them IMMENSELY! (Try "The Jewels Of Aptor" for GREAT fantasy, and "The Fall of the Towers" I remember as being VERY good, although I read it so long ago, that I can't remember much of the story.) However, I got de-railed by Delany when I tried tackling a new (at the time) book of his (I can't remember the title) where the character spends the entire novel wandering around this immense city (post-holocaust, I believe) without really DOING much. GREAT language usage and descriptions, etc, but I just got tired of no plot developments. I realize it's unfair to give up on an author after one disliked book, but I haven't time to read half of the books I buy, now, so I haven't read much by him for the last ten years or so. Everett Kaser Albany, OR ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 03:48:56 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: STARQUAKE by Robert L. Forward STARQUAKE by Robert L. Forward Del Rey, 1986 A book review by Mark R. Leeper Robert Forward's first hard-science science fiction novel, DRAGON'S EGG, was published in 1980. It was a remarkably enjoyable story of the visit of a neutron star to our solar system, and of the inhabitants, the cheela, whose time sense is roughly a million times as fast as ours. At that time it appeared that Forward could go one of two ways. he could either be a new James Hogan, with adventures built around engaging scientific concepts, or he could become the new Hal Clement, with more cute, likeable aliens. After his third novel, it is clear that he is closer to Clement or even Alan Dean Foster than he is to Hogan. In fact, his plotting my be the weakest of any of them. Forward's first two novels dealt with space expeditions and first contacts. His third novel is really a direct continuation of his first two, telling of the exciting adventures that happened on the one day following (the next 100 cheela generations). As with the previous novels, the characters are rudimentary and the science-as-background is the real star. Forward says in the 21-page appendix that "one can hardly imagine a more alien life form than the cheela." That may be true if the "one" is Forward, but in fact the cheela are too much just oddly shaped humans. Forward has touches like having the cheela wink at each other to flirt. Their shape is odd, but their behavior is very human. STARQUAKE might have been called DRAGON'S EGG: THE NEXT DAY. The novel takes place over 24 hours. That is about a hundred generations of cheela time, though clearly some cheela seemed to live a lot longer than Forward's appendix suggests they do. What is more, Forward has some fun with cheela names and the more he has, the less I had. cheela now have names like Otis-elevator, Newton-Einstein, and, in what I assume was an inside joke for SF fans, Fuzzy-Pink. STARQUAKE does cover a considerable piece of cheela history and if you try you can get some feel for the sweep of history, but overall, this novel of life on a neutron star is a bit light-weight. Forward may continue to write science fiction, but I suspect he will remain a one-book author. The best thing about STARQUAKE is that is caused a re-issue of DRAGON'S EGG. Mark R. Leeper ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 86 06:20:31 GMT From: c160-dq@zooey.Berkeley.EDU (Kathy Li) Subject: New Simon Hawke TimeWars? I've just finished reading Simon Hawke (sp??)'s TimeWars series. Does anybody know if he intends to continue the series after the fifth one? I've been having an immense amount of fun. For anyone who hasn't read this series, it's a good bunch of popcorn books. The usual premise, of "Gee, golly, there's a glitch in the timeline, and we've gotta go fix it." comes into play. However, the glitches come about because of time travel, and going back to "fix" it is a regular duty of a whole military organization. Hawke doesn't base his books on real history. He bases them on fictional history. Each book corresponds to another well-loved fictional work. The Ivanhoe Gambit: Ivanhoe and Robin Hood The Timekeeper Conspiracy: The Three Musketeers The Pimpernel Plot: The Scarlet Pimpernel The Zenda Vendetta: Prisoner of Zenda (what else?) The Nautilus Sanction: 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea These books are FUN. Check 'em out if you need some light reading. Kathy Li ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Sep 86 18:11:19 EDT From: ted@braggvax.arpa Subject: P.J. Plauger The only novel by Plauger that I know about was published as part of a paperback "13th issue" of _Analog_ sometime during the Bova years. It was as I recall, quite good and was apparently a sequel to a story called "Wet Blanket". Unfortunately I can't remember the title of the novel, but it did involve a formerly mad protagonist who had to disable a mass driver on the moon to keep it from being used against Earth a la _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_. Ted Nolan ted@braggvax BTW: That 13th issue is worth having for Spider Robinson's "Half an Oaf" also, possibly the funniest thing he has written. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 86 12:27:07 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: P. J. Plauger From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU > I picked up a used copy of The 1976 World's Best SF (edited by > D.A.Wollheim) and found it has a story by P.J. Plauger, "Child of > all Ages". I believe this is the same P.J. Plauger that cs people > know as the author of The Elements of Programming Style, etc. I > enjoyed the story and wonder if anyone knows of any other stories > he's written (short stories in magazines or novels). Yes it is same Plauger. Other stories of his include: "Epicycle" ANALOG (Nov 1973) "Wet Blanket" ANALOG (Feb 1974) "Dark Lantern" ANALOG (Jul 1974) "Storymaker" GALAXY (Feb 1976) "Fighting Madness" ANALOG ANNUAL (Apr 1976) [edited by Ben Bova] "Here There Be Dragons" AURORA: BEYOND EQUALITY (May 1976) [edited by Vonda N. McIntyre & Susan Anderson] "The Con Artist" ANALOG (Dec 1976) "Virtual Image" NEW VOICES III (Apr 1980) [edited by George R. R. Martin] --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 86 20:32:03 edt From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Dervish Daughter Can anyone tell me what's doing with Sheri Tepper's new book, "Dervish Daughter"? I've read two reviews of the book that had to have been written at least half a year ago, but I've yet to see the book itself on the shelves. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 86 16:37:26 GMT From: dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low) Subject: Baen Replies The following is a message from Jim Baen from Scifido (a science fiction BBS and more!). It is a reply to the discussion on the Baen Book Club that also has been discussed here. Hence I decided to copy the message to net.sf-lovers. Start Message War? What war? This was all a misunderstanding based on the absence of the proviso that the discount was a temporary loss- leader -- a fact that was made clear in flyers distributed at conventions. Because of the perhaps understandable mini-uproar provoked by that omission (and the fact that we do NOT -- repeat NOT -- want to even seem to be competing with our outlets we are converting the Book Club to a Survey Group (a primary purpose of the Club in the first place was to create a data source of people who had read a lot of Baen Books) with a target membership of 250, and a maximum membership of 500, which comes out to about 5 to 10 people per state. During the six months the club was in place, we garnered a total of 120 members, which comes to about two members for each state. Jim Baen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 17:47 EDT From: Barry Margolin <Margolin@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: Harlan and Isaac's mouths While I partially agree with Bill Ingogly's feelings about Harlan Ellison's F&SF column, I do enjoy Asimov's column. The difference is in the ratio of self-indulgence to information. In Ellison's movie reviews you have to read through large amounts of dribble to find the one or two points he has to make about the movie, and even these are not usually interesting. In Asimov's column, if you don't like his anecdotes all you have to do is start from the third or fourth paragraph (just look for the first blank line) and you'll be reading a nice science essay; he may toss in a couple of personal quips, but certainly not enough to ruin the piece if you don't like that sort of writing. Personally, I like Asimov's nonfiction writing style. His essays are just like his lectures in this regard. They have a personal feeling, as if he were talking to me in my living room, not writing a paper for a journal. I feel I have come to know him as a person through his essays and introductions in anthologies; when I read his autobiography (if you don't like his anecdotes in essays, keep away from this!) I had a real feeling of deja vu because much of it had already been written in his essays and collections such as "The Early Asimov". Ellison's nonfiction writing style is also like his lecture. However, he is not friendly and congenial like Asimov in either medium. Instead of making the reader feel as if he were having a friendly conversation, it is more like listening to a child whine about how poorly his parents treat him. He comes across as mean, bitter, cynical, and a perfectionist. It is hard to enjoy this type of rambling. Somebody must, though, because they keep paying for him to do it (I suppose I'm part of the problem, because I never expressed these feelings to the publishers of F&SF). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 15:05:33 EDT From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@prophet.bbn.com> Subject: Re: Columnists in F&SF Over the last decade or so, it seems to me that Asimov has been dumbing down his science column, so that it now appears to be pitched at twelve-year-olds. (How many twelve-year-olds read F&SF, I wonder?) This drags one column's worth of material into two or three, since he over-explains everything now. The ever-longer personal anecdotes only exacerbate this problem. I wish Dr. A would write for adults in F&SF, and save the younger-reader stuff for his juvie science "How Did We Learn About (whatever)" series. Ellison is often witty, though as a movie criticism column his writings leave a lot to be desired: He often forgets to mention WHY he didn't like something. But the one I've given up on completely is Budrys. He never checks his reported "facts," and has reviewed his own books! I think Ferman publishes stuff like this in an attempt to stir up controversy, maybe in hopes of getting more readers. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 86 14:24:33 PDT From: Chris McMenomy <christe%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA> Cc: ringwld!jmturn@cca-unix.arpa Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #287 >A friend of mine has been searching for the following book for >years... The story is a space opera, concerning a young man who >gathers a force to topple ancient (but not by default evil) rulers >of the galaxy and their minions.... At one point, our hero >impresses a bunch of locals on a planet by riding down his >spaceship ramp upon a horse. Could your friend be thinking of "Rebel of Rhada" and its sequels, by Robert Gilman (the title is correct; I may have the author wrong). The books were in the children's section of the library when I was growing up, but they have recently been reissued in paperback and are still available (I noticed copies in Change of Hobbit last week). I remember the books with great affection: the monastic order had inherited the space ships, and had no idea how to repair them or build new ones, but like the monks of St. Gall and their manuscripts, they kept what they had alive, and went through all the "sacred" ritual and appropriate chants, and the ships still traveled. And the horses of Rhada went to war in the ships--they could talk and were intelligent. Christe ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 86 18:22:40 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Need Info On SF Story From: sri-spam!jeffr (Jeff Rininger) > I once read a short story called (I think. . .) "On The Wall Of > The Lodge", co-written by a man and a woman, perhaps husband and > wife. As I remember it, this story appeared in an anthology > edited by Robert Silverberg. > > If anyone remembers this story, and the anthology in which it > appeared, would you please refresh my (alleged) mind ? I would > very much like to find the story and re-read it. You got the title correct. It's by James Blish and Virginia Kidd, and it appeared in DARK STARS. As far as I can tell, that's the only place it's appeared other than its original publication in the April 1962 GALAXY SF MAGAZINE. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Sep 86 13:45 CDT From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: Story search, reply Your description is sort of vague, and I don't remember about the horse, but it sounds like Triplanetary by EE "Doc" SMith. This is the first the first book in the Lensman series. Brett ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Sep 86 1528-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #299 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 19 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 299 Today's Topics: Films - Beastmaster (3 msgs) & Gross Movies (4 msgs) & Jittlov (3 msgs) & Cartoon Request & Sinbad (2 msgs) & Submarine Movies & Videos (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 14:11:10 EDT From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (John White) Subject: Movies Did anyone watching the Marc Singer movie "The Beastmaster" either: 1) notice the similarity to a certain Andre Norton 'juvenile' of the same name; or 2) notice any official credit to Ms. Norton for said resemblance? John White WHITE@DREXELVM.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 86 17:53:41 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: BEASTMASTER (was Re: Movies) >Did anyone watching the Marc Singer movie "The Beastmaster" either: > 1) notice the similarity to a certain Andre Norton > 'juvenile' of the same name; or > 2) notice any official credit to Ms. Norton for said > resemblance? This needs to get added the list of commonly asked questions; it's been up at least four times this last year. Yes, the title was the same. No, the film wasn't based on the book. No, Norton got no credit (I don't think you can copyright one-word titles anyway). Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu BITNET: mtgzy.uucp!ecl@harvard.edu ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 86 14:26:43 GMT From: hrcca!jean@caip.rutgers.edu (Jean Airey) Subject: RE: Re: BEASTMASTER (was Re: Movies) >> Did anyone watching the Marc Singer movie "The Beastmaster" >> either: >> 1) notice the similarity to a certain Andre Norton >> 'juvenile' of the same name; or >> 2) notice any official credit to Ms. Norton for said >> resemblance? > > This needs to get added the list of commonly asked questions; it's > been up at least four times this last year. Yes, the title was > the same. No, the film wasn't based on the book. No, Norton got > no credit (I don't think you can copyright one-word titles > anyway). Well I'm new to the net & I was curious to see the answer to this. Regardless of copyright of TITLE, as far as I could see there were too many similarities in the movie to claim that it did NOT infringe on the book. It seems to me that people have been sued for plagarism with a lot less "matches" than this one had. I heard some scuttlebutt that Norton was going to sue & then settled out-of court?? Didn't Van Vogt get a settlement from the "ALIEN" people -- were there *that* many more similarities there than in "Beastmaster"? (Actually, I suppose the reason I was so mad when I saw the movie was that if they *had* really used the book it would have been a much better movie. AT least I think so. Of course, Hollywood can always ruin things :-)) Jean Airey: US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506 ihnp4!hrcca!jean ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 86 00:10:46 GMT From: bnrmtv!zarifes@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes) Subject: Re: Gross and Disgusting Movies From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU > In response to the inquiry about G&D movies, I think a distinction > should be made between G&D movies (e.g. Friday 13th, Halloween, > etc) As I recall (and it has been a while), you never saw one drop of blood in Halloween. It was also a very scary movie. I recommend it. This film certainly does not deserve to be lumped in with your "G&D" generalization. But Halloween II would qualify. Ken Zarifes {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 03:24:42 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Frost) Subject: Halloween and blood You're right about Halloween not being clumped in with G&D movies, but technically, there was blood in it. The only point I can remember off the top of my head is in the initial scenes where the kid is stabbing his sister, and afterward outside, when the knife is covered with blood. If I thought about it more I could probably remember other scenes, but it's really not worth that much effort :-), and that's kinda minor anyway. Jim Frost UUCP: ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs BITNET: cscc71c@bostonu ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 86 17:22:11 GMT From: slu70!guy@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Gross and Disgusting Movies CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU writes: > There are many movies with G&D scenes which I think few people > would claim are G&D movies. A good example is Indiana Jones & the > Temple of Doom, with its scene of the priest ripping out the > heart. My nomination for this category is "El Topo" (directed by Jodorowski, I think) which is a veritable bloodbath. It's got far more content than anything Lucberg have done. Not that I claim to understand it. That would take more viewings than I think I could cope with. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Sep 86 08:53:47 PDT (Wednesday) From: PMacay.PA@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Gross and Disgusting Movies >In response to the inquiry about G&D movies, I think a distinction >should be made between G&D movies (e.g. Friday 13th, Halloween, >etc) and movies that happen to use G&D effects. I think The Fly >falls into the latter category. It is a great film that people >will enjoy for its story, characters, ideas, etc., not just the >special effects. It has a purpose besides merely disgusting the >audience. Admittedly, disgusting the audience seems to be one of >its goals, but this disgust contributes to the movie. It is not >gratuitous gross-and-disgustingness, but G&Dness with a purpose >besides simply being G&D. I'm sorry but I totally disagree. I had high hopes for this film but when I heard about the G&D stuff I stayed away. I was reading Stephen Kings "Skeleton Crew" which has a transporter story in it and it peeked my interest again and I just couldn't stay away. I think the only purpose of this film is to say "Hey, lets see how gross we can get." I don't mind gore if it has something to do with the story, but here the plot and characterization was secondary to the new and improved "state of the art G&D affects." I thought Gene Siskel said it best, "Why do they remake great films that can never possibly be as great as the original. Why don't they remake lousy films with a good premise and improve on them." Pete ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 11:14:31 PDT (Wednesday) From: Caro.osbunorth@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Jittlov news? Has anyone seen the Peter Gabriel video for "Sledgehammer"? I swear Jittlov had something to do with it. It is very Jittlovian. I can't explain it very well, so I won't try, but the stop action animation is perfectly timed with the lip sync! I think that means that Peter Gabriel would have to repeat a line of lyrics dozens of times so that they could get just the right frame to sync with the music (meanwhile manipulating the animation objects, of course.) Perry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Sep 86 08:51:16 edt From: Dan Hoey <hoey@nrl-aic> Subject: Re: Jittlov news? Cc: hoptoad!farren@ru-caip.ARPA I was puzzled in Atlanta by the announcement of a program item called "The Forgery of Mike Jittlov's Autograph" scheduled for presentation by Lisa Winters. I couldn't make it, and I later heard the item was cancelled. Do you have any idea what it might have been about? Is there a new fanscandal brewing? ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 86 02:21:30 GMT From: hoptoad!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: Jittlov News In response to a query about a "Forged Jittlov Autograph" program item at Worldcon, and also in response to *&*(&$# mailers everywhere, I offer: Re: The Forgery of Mike Jittlov's Autograph - this was a special appearance by one of Jittlov's assistants; in this case, his "Official Forger", Lisa Winters being the holder of this office. I now have a con badge which holds what appears to be a genuine Jittlovian signature, actually produced by Ms. Winters while I watched. No scandal, I think... Mike Farren hoptoad!farren ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 86 01:44:55 GMT From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) Subject: Cartoon movie title request This is an old one, probably out in the mid sixties. I don't remember the exact plot, but here are a few tidbits: A scientist discovers new planet, thousands of light years away. He discovered it by turning up the magnification a million times (or some ridiculously high number). He, a boy and his sentient pet (a dog, I think) travel there to find the people are subjugated by a race of robots. These people do not appear entirely human, and look rather plastic. Their princess is held hostage, which prevents the people from rebelling. For some crazy reason water is unknown to the inhabitants. Water will damage the countryside, and also destroy the robots. The scientist and boy create water cannons to defeat the robots. For some reason, I also think of helicopters or some things that whirled like a helicopters. In the end, the boy rescues the princess after she has had water poured on her, and is apparently near death. It turns out that the people had some sort of protective shell and the water destroys it. The people are really humans inside. A cold dawn wind blows. The end. Well, any clues? I believe that the animation was either French or Japanese, but it's been so long that it's a bit hazy. It was definitely not American animation. I seem to remember that body motion was limited to flexing at the waist (ie, cheap). If you know this film, have you seen it recently? Is it rentable? Jonathan D. Trudel arpa: trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4,pyrnj,pyramid}!topaz!trudel ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 86 22:22:11 GMT From: savax!dove@caip.rutgers.edu (dove) Subject: Name of a Sinbad movie? I recall as a child seeing a Sinbad movie in which there is a magician who has placed his heart at the top of a well defended tower, and who therefore cannot be killed. Part of the movie involves Sinbad attempting to mount the tower and kill the heart of the magician. Can anyone who knows the Title of this movie mail it to me at: ...!decvax!savax!dove Thank you ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 86 19:35:21 GMT From: celerity!jjw@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim ) Subject: Re: Name of a Sinbad movie? dove@savax.UUCP (dove) writes: >I recall as a child seeing a Sinbad movie in which there is a >magician who has placed his heart at the top of a well defended >tower, and who therefore cannot be killed. Part of the movie >involves Sinbad attempting to mount the tower and kill the heart of >the magician. I believe this was the first, and in my opinion, the best, Ray Harryhausen Sinbad Movie "The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad". This film dates from the late '50's. The basic plot involved Sinbad's betrothed being reduced to about three inches high and the attempt to have her restored to her original size. I forget exactly why the magician did this but I think it had something to do with getting Sinbad to obtain something the magician needed in order to extend his powers. Monsters in this movie included a giant Cyclops, a giant two-headed bird (a Roc), and a dragon which the magician kept chained at the entrance to his workshop in order to discourage intruders. There was also a magic lamp with a genie who was a young boy. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 15:05:33 EDT From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@prophet.bbn.com> Subject: Movies Barbara Eden was in the original movie VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA. She played Admiral Nelson's (Walter Pidgeon) secretary, who was also Lee Crane's (Robert Sterling) fiancee. The cast also included Peter Lorre (a top scientist), Joan Fontaine (ditto), Michael Ansara (born-again inciter to mutiny), and Frankie Avalon, who played the horn and sang the insipid title tune, as well as several plastic sharks and octopuses. The "plot" concerns the Van Allen belt catching on fire (Lorre: "It's theoretically possible."). A typical Irwin Allen chewing gum production, with the Seaview and Nelson saving us all in the end. Speaking of submarine movies, two others come to mind after the recent discussion: OPERATION PACIFIC, with John Wayne and Patricia Neal (look for William Campbell and Martin Milner in the ship's crew), in which Duke, when his torpedoes fail him, rams an enemy ship with his submarine (without disabling it!) and THE BEDFORD INCIDENT, with Richard Widmark and Sidney Poitier (also Wally Cox and Donald Sutherland), in which Widmark's U.S. Navy ship chases Russian subs around in order to provoke a confrontation. ******SPOILER ALERT !!!****** At the end of the movie, a Russian sub launches some nuclear missiles, and the implication is that Widmark, who was acting without authority, has managed to start WWIII. ******END SPOILER ALERT****** ------------------------------ Date: Tue 9 Sep 86 12:42:39-PDT From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA> Subject: SciFi Movies on Video >from: Alastair Milne >> Firefox (Clint Eastwood as a Russian? hard to believe) > Don't. Eastwood does not play a Russian. He plays a US pilot... The commentary here was meant as a joke. As far as his ability to speak Russian fluently (in the movie), the accentuation was pure Rowdy Yates. >>Doctor Who: Revenge of the Cybermen > ...Why, from more than 20 years of continuous production, do you choose this particular Doctor Who? ... Again, I would like to say that the lists I am providing are of films available on video tape. I certainly DO NOT choose what the studios decide to release. Also...I think _Raiders_of_the_Lost_Ark_ is more adventure than science fiction but it is rather hard to define the grey areas between SF, fantasy, horror and adventure. Walter Chapman ------------------------------ Date: Mon 15 Sep 86 11:18:32-PDT From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA> Subject: Video Movie Rating Scheme Re: The list of movies I posted. I realize that the original request was for recommended movies but as I mentioned quality exists with the individual. Since the question still exists on what are recommended films what I am offering to do is to compile a ratings scheme based on viewer response. If you have seen any of the films I have listed then rate the film from 1 to 5 with 5 being "must see" and 1 as "skip it". I will from time-to-time post the latest (average) rating score. I am still compiling more film listings and will publish them soon. Respond to: CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 16 Sep 86 11:18:25-PDT From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA> Subject: Movies on Video, Part IV Here are a couple of more movies on video tape (or soon to be released): Aliens are Coming, The Death Ray 2000 Daleks: Invasion Earth 2150 A.D. (w/Peter Cushing...just the old _Dr._Who_and_the_Daleks_ repackaged and renamed -- avail 10/23/86) Girl from Starship Venus (R-rated, prob German/Swedish T & A) Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster (Godzilla): Son of Godzilla (Godzilla): Terror of MechaGodzilla Ghidrah the 3-Headed Monster Highlander (avail 10/23/86) It Came from Beneath the Sea Mothra Vindicator, The << Adult Films with SF Themes: >> Ms. Magnificent (orignally titled _Superwoman_ but legal problems forced the change: "stars" Desiree Cousteau) Return to Alpha Blue Satisfiers of Alpha Blue Star Virgin Thanks to you contributors out there. I believe this pretty well exhausts the list but if more show up I'll post them. Walter Chapman ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 20 Sep 86 1544-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #300 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Sep 86 1544-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #300 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 19 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 300 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (6 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Sep 86 00:57:39 GMT From: chapman@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >Mr. Berch speaks with the fervent preconception of a fundamentalist >inventing excuses for the slaughter of the Midianites. Heinlein >was clear; he did not dryly note a few positive effects; he stated >outright that the nuclear war was "good for the country". Go back >and check the quote if you don't believe me (and I'll grant you, >it's hard to believe). He then went on to say that it had "turned >the tide" toward the triumph of freedom, and that the net effect >would be to "improve the breed". Not hesitantly, not dryly, not in >passing - Heinlein states outright and enthusiastically that >nuclear war would be a wonderful thing! Mr. Maroney, are you capable of making the distinction between a fictional character and the real person (actor or author) behind that character? Granted, in many cases the character will reflect the artist and his/her views, but this is NOT a "given". >I know Heinlein is probably one of your heroes, Mr. Berch, but you >simply must face facts. The book says what I quoted it as saying, >not what you would like it to have said. And "Pie in the Sky" is >even more unambiguous: "There are so many, many things in this >so-termed civilization of ours which would be mightily improved by >a once over lightly of the Hiroshima treatment." You can twist and >turn and try to divert the issue into long lists of irrelevant >Heinlein statements on other matters (which you did, and which I >have omitted), but these are the things he said, and you can't >change that by wishing it away. Are you denying that there are bad things about our culture? Logically, a nuclear holocaust would remove those "bad things" by removing the culture. That it might also create worse things is beside the point. That the process is abhorrent is beside the point. The issue is that it would do the job. >Moorcock's essay "Starship Stormtroopers", which you can get in the >collection "The Opium General", deals not primarily with the >fascism of many science fiction writers, but of the peculiar >phenomenon of their support by people who disagree with their >views; Mr. Berch has given us a fine example of this. While >Moorcock makes no broad conclusions about the reasons for this, I >would speculate that it has to do with two chief factors. You seem to have the same attitude toward Mr. Moorcock as you accuse Mr. Berch (and will doubtless accuse me, too) of having toward Mr. Heinlein: that his words are gospel and therefore not subject to question or discussion. >First, we all started reading Heinlein at around age ten or >earlier, before the development of a real critical faculty. Ideas >firmly implanted at this age are very hard to dislodge later, as >every organized religion knows. (For me, the break with Heinlein >was when, at sixteen or so, I tried to re-read "Starship Troopers", >which I had liked at twelve, and found it to be perhaps the most >appalling book I had ever read.) Second, science fiction readers >have a sort of siege mentality, reinforced through imbecilic >articles in Harper's and so forth on how awful the field is; and >this creates a predilection to view criticism of those authors >generally viewed as the bright lights of the field as an attack on >the field itself, and to respond to this perceived attack >viscerally. Oh, how I love paternalism and holier-than-thou attitudes.. "Well _I_ can make the distinction between <this> and <that>, but we should protect those poor, innocent, uneducated folk who can't..." Bullshit. Do you happen to know Mr. Berch? I do. Mr. Berch is a (ex? You'll have to ask him) legal type. He seems to cringe at illogical, emotion-based arguments. His relatively rare postings tend to be reflect his legal background, in that they are invariably articulate, well thought out, well ordered, and well argued. Even if I don't agree with him, I have nothing but respect for his postings. Which is more than I can say for some people. I don't see the quotes from RAH's stories as an endorsement of nuclear war. I _do_ see them as a comment that such an occurrence is not strictly negative, which is something vastly different. I see these comments as a different expression of the same theme found in many of his other books: that the human race _AS A WHOLE_ (despite grave hardships to individuals and societies) will benefit from an exodus to space, or some other method of large-scale genetic selection. I don't necessarily agree with either the practicality or desireability of this theme, but he argues it well, and is as certainly entitled to his opinion as anyone else. On a slow burn, Brent Chapman chapman@cory.berkeley.edu ucbvax!cory!chapman ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 86 22:47:38 GMT From: watdcsu!dmcanzi@caip.rutgers.edu (David Canzi) Subject: Pie From the Sky tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes: >Because you demanded it, pilgrim, herewith the quotes proving >Heinlein's support for nuclear war. These are taken from "Ghastly >Beyond Belief", an anthology of bad and embarrassing science >fiction excerpts. > >First, from "Pie in the Sky": > There are so many, many things in this so-termed > civilization of ours which would be mightily improved by a > once over lightly of the Hiroshima treatment. Allow me to restore some missing context. Since we have every reason to expect a sudden rain of death from the sky sometime in the next few years... it behooves the Pollyanna Philosopher to add up the advantages to be derived from the blasting of your apartment, row house, or suburban cottage. It ain't all bad, chum. While you are squatting in front of your cave, trying to roast a rabbit with one hand while scratching your lice infested hide with the other, there will be many cheerful things to think about... There are so many, many things in this so-termed civilization of ours which would be mightily improved by a once over lightly of the Hiroshima treatment. There is that dame upstairs, for instance, the one with the square bowling ball. Never again would she take it out for practice right over your bed at three in the morning... [three pages of descriptions of civilization's aggravations omitted, often in spite of strong temptation] I don't mean to suggest that it will all be fun. Keeping alive after our cities have been smashed and our government disintegrated will be a grim business at best... [about 3/4 page skipped] Of course, if you are so soft that you *like* innerspring mattresses and clean water and regular meals, despite the numerous advantages of blowing us off the map, but are not too soft to try to do something to avoid the coming debacle, there is something you can do about it, other than forming Survival Leagues or cultivating an attitude of philosophical resignation... It should be clear that Heinlein was not advocating nuclear war in his essay, Pie From the Sky. As for whether he does so in Farnham's Freehold, we must either reserve judgement, or go read the book, or accept the word of somebody who has read the book recently enough to remember enough details to judge by. David Canzi ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 23:10:04 GMT From: dartvax!derek@caip.rutgers.edu (Derek J. LeLash) Subject: Heinlein (& Ellison) While I have read very few of Heinlein's works, and did not particularly care for the ones I did read, I feel I must come to his defense in the current debate. Mr. Maroney has taken excerpts from some of Heinlein's *fiction* which express a rather unattractive moral stance, and has taken them to represent, 100%, the beliefs of the author (witness his repeated use of "Heinlein states..."). I find this unacceptable, and give his argument little credence because of it. Now, if Heinlein had written a political essay espousing these views....... While we're on the subject of unjustified conclusion, I would also like to take exception to a view of Harlan Ellison recently presented on the net: to wit, "I hear he's a jerk, and therefore I won't read any of his books." (forgive paraphrasing). While it's true that most of what Ellison writes in introductions and essays and such is done in an extremely petulant tone, which suggests the existence of a chip on his shoulder the size of New Jersey, his stories are among the best I know. Try "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream," for starters. Enough for now....discussion/disagreement welcome. Derek LeLash derek@dartvax ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 12:47:19 GMT From: duke!ndd@caip.rutgers.edu (Ned Danieley) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >mcb@styx.UUCP (Michael C. Berch) writes: >> The fact that Heinlein's character (and I will allow that he >>speaks with the authorial voice, as many of RAH's heroes do) dryly >>notes some of the beneficial effects the war had compared with >>previous wars hardly marks hims as being in FAVOR of a nuclear >>war. I fear this passage, and the other one quoted, were a little >>too subtle for Mr. Maroney. > >...inventing excuses for the slaughter of the Midianites. Heinlein >was clear; he did not dryly note a few positive effects; he stated >outright that the nuclear war was "good for the country". Go back >and check the quote if you don't believe me (and I'll grant you, >it's hard to believe). He then went on to say that it had "turned >the tide" toward the triumph of freedom, and that the net effect >would be to "improve the breed". Not hesitantly, not dryly, not in >passing - Heinlein states outright and enthusiastically that >nuclear war would be a wonderful thing! I thought that Mr. Berch's point was that we don't know that Heinlein believes this. Nothing that Mr. Maroney has said really speaks to that question. Instead of sniping at each other, perhaps we could find a way to prove one of these positions, or admit that a writer's actual beliefs are not always obvious from his writing. Ned Danieley duke!ndd ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 16:04:34 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes: > he stated outright that the nuclear war was "good for the > country". Go back and check the quote if you don't believe me OK. Let's do. He frowned. "Barbara, I'm not as sad over what has happened as you are. It might be be good for us. I don't mean us six; I mean our country." Hardly saying that "nuclear war is good for the country". He's sad, but not as sad as Barbara. It *MIGHT* be good (but he does *not* say outright that he thinks it is a net benefit). In fact, he equivocates quite a bit during the course of your quote: might be ... seems to me ... may have ... may be ... not every case ... it is cruel Also note that "he" is a character, and not unambiguously mouthing Heinlein's thoughts. Add to that the fact that he is trying to find silver linings to cheer up "Barbara", and the fact that the rest of the story proves him wrong in no uncertain terms, and... what was that you were saying about "proof"? > Moorcock's essay "Starship Stormtroopers", which you can get in > the collection "The Opium General", deals not primarily with the > fascism of many science fiction writers, but of the peculiar > phenomenon of their support by people who disagree with their > views; Mr. Berch has given us a fine example of this. While > Moorcock makes no broad conclusions about the reasons for this, I > would speculate that it has to do with two chief factors. Well, I think Moorcock's (and, apparently, your) opinion of Heinlein have to do with three main factors. 1) Removing quotes from their context, 2) mistaking what characters say for what those characters beleive, and 3) (to a lesser extent) mistaking what those characters (supposedly) believe for what Heinlein believes. And I suppose I should make it clear that I'm not "supporting Heinlein". I'm simply offering criticism of a particularly silly argument against him. Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 05:20:40 GMT From: ames!barry@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb No, "Hugh Farnham" stated it. And he said "might be", not "was". And, yes, I know that HF is one of Heinlein's "mouthpiece" characters. But a mouthpiece is not necessarily a parrot. HF is a character in a book where the war has already happened. Moreover, it's naive to think the protagonists always speak for the author, and especially so when it's an author whose business is speculations on politics and sociology, as well as physics. Why do the protagonists of STARSHIP TROOPERS like elected government with the franchise limited to vets, while those of GLORY ROAD believe in monarchy, those in DOUBLE STAR believe in constitutional monarchy, and those of THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS are rational anarchists? Could it have as much to do with the reality within the book as with Heinlein's own precise opinions? FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD is one of the most pessimistic books that Heinlein (normally an optimist; maybe *that's* why he's popular, Tim) ever wrote, and Farnham is one of his least likeable protagonists. And one way to read it is to see it as showing Farnham was wrong. Heinlein shows us a *very* unpleasant far future (people raised for food, ala Wells' TIME MACHINE) coming out of the nuclear holocaust. Not the way *I'd* write it, if my purpose were to show the advantages of nuclear war. Rather than looking at Heinlein through the murky medium of fiction, let's look at a bit of his non-fiction. You chose to quote his non-fiction essay, "Pie From The Sky", in attempting to support your point: >"There are so many, many things in this so-termed civilization of >ours which would be mightily improved by a once over lightly of the >Hiroshima treatment." You can twist and turn and try to divert the >issue into long lists of irrelevant Heinlein statements on other >matters (which you did, and which I have omitted), but these are >the things he said, and you can't change that by wishing it away. I'll make the generous assumption that you saw this quote somewhere, in isolation, and are yourself not intentionally quoting out of context. Let's read on, to see what the "improvements" are that Heinlein refers to: "There is that dame upstairs, for instance, the one with the square bowling ball"; "No more soap operas"; "No more alarm clocks"; etc. I doubt I need to clarify the concept of "irony" to YOU, Tim :-). But if anyone else is perhaps uncertain, let me add a quote from the close of "Pie From The Sky": "If you really want to hang on to the advantages of our slightly wacky pseudo-civilization, there is just one way to do it, according to the scientists who know the most about the new techniques of war - and that is to form a sovereign world authority to prevent the Atomic War." Heinlein is a political maverick, and has opinions to irritate almost anyone. Considering some of the consistent themes that run through most of his fiction (elitism, iconoclasm, extreme individualism), I don't think it should be necessary to jump on isolated quotes or theorize unlikely opinions (have any of you *ever* met someone who was in favor of nuclear war?) in order to argue with him. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA ELECTRIC AVENUE: {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,hplabs}!ames!barry ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Sep 86 1611-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #301 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 19 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 301 Today's Topics: Television - Anderson & Blake's Seven & Barbara Eden & Electrawoman & Japanese Animation & Sapphire and Steel & Science Fiction Theater (2 msgs) & Star Trek (4 msgs) & Mr. Terrific & Myth Makers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Sep 86 16:39:26 GMT From: csustan!smdev@caip.rutgers.edu (Scott Hazen Mueller) Subject: Re: Old SF-tv (Anderson) jrw@hropus.UUCP (Jim Webb) writes: >Speaking of Anderson, he did some intriguing shows with, hell, they >weren't puppets, but I hope you know what I mean. I remember one >about this family how lived on this island and had all these >rockets and aircraft that were numbered. One of them was this sort >of flying box car that could carry differing payloads in its belly. >It stood over a moving conveyer belt that moved the various pods >under- neath. Another rocket shot out from under their swimming >pool, that slid aside to allow it to shot past. This show also had >a "CloudBase" or something with female rocket fighter pilots, or >was that another show? This was (The?) _Thunderbirds_. I remember this one a little better than most because I saw a movie of the same one or two years back. There was also a space station and a (six-wheeled?) car in the arsenal, and the operators of the various units were brothers, except for the car. The car, as I recall, was pink and belonged to a girl who was (I think) the sister. The entire operation was 'Earth/Space Rescue' or 'Space Rescue'. Also, I'm pretty sure that they had toys based on this show, because I have a very vague memory of owning a toy pink car. All of the above should be considered to be even more heavily qualified than it already is... Scott Hazen Mueller City of Turlock 901 South Walnut Avenue Turlock, CA 95380 lll-crg.arpa!csustan!smdev work: (209) 668-5590 or 5628 home: (209) 527-1203 ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 13:05:41 GMT From: hrcca!jean@caip.rutgers.edu (Jean Airey) Subject: Re: Blake's Seven > My local public television station just started showing > Blake's Seven. What I've seen so far doesn't answer the big > questions like : Who is Blake? Why is he running? Who is he > running from? ... Did you miss the first episode -- "The Way Back"? "Blake's 7" was originally produced from 1978 - 1981 by the BBC as "adult" televiewing in contrast to "Doctor Who" which is considered "family" televiewing. There were 52 episodes made over the four years that the show was on the air. The basic premise has been described as "The Dirty Dozen," or "Robin Hood" in space. Set in the reasonably far future, most of the known universe is ruled by the evil, bureaucratic, corrupt Federation. Roj Blake is a resistance fighter who was caught, brainwashed, and turned loose as a "reformed" citizen. Some other resistance fighters find him, get him off the drugged food and water (a common control method used by the Federation) and try to revive his memory. They are caught and slaughtered, and Blake, his memory now restored, is found to be unprogrammable. Unwilling to make him a martyr, the Federation trumps up charges of child molesting against him, convicts him, and sends him off in a prison ship for the prison planet Cygnus Alpha. Blake refuses to give in, and, over the next two episodes, manages to persuade some of the other criminals (yes, they really are criminals) on board to join him and escape. They take over an "alien" vessel found drifting in space, call it the Liberator and set out on their adventures. The cast of characters grows, shrinks, and changes throughout the series. A warning: this is NOT kiddie viewing. Our heros do not always win; they often disagree with and sometimes don't even like each other. Not everyone survives, (you will NOT see everyone listed above in ANY episode), and death is not pleasant. Common to almost every episode is a strong sense of wit and a gritty realism. There are some marvelous lines (at least one in every episode) and the characters are very well drawn and mostly credible. The characters do change and develop as the series goes on and that change reflects the fact that they are always hunted, never safe. In many respects this is more like a 52-episode miniseries in the way that it deals with its characters. Although the final episode "Blake" appears to have an absolute finality as far as the characters' return, it is, upon close examination, open to reexamination and a renewal of the series. > Also does anyone know whether the show is still being > produced or if all I'm seeing are old reruns. Production did stop in 1981, **BUT** Terry Nation -- the creator, who still has the rights to the show -- says that if it goes over well in America there will be more episodes. Jean Airey: US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506 ihnp4!hrcca!jean ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 86 07:44:28 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: SF on TV >Barbara Eden played Jeannie. I think she was also in the George >Pal version of _The Seven Faces of Doctor Lao_. I can't think of >anything else related to SF that she's been in at the moment. Eden has been a regular is science fiction and fantasy. Your question brought to mind that she was in the film VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA, but also prompted me to look up and see what else she had been in. VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA WONDERFUL WORLD OF THE BROTHERS GRIMM FIVE WEEKS IN A BALLOON THE BRASS BOTTLE (with Burl Ives playing the genie this time) THE 7 FACES OF DR. LAO INTRUDER WITHIN (others?) Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Fri 12 Sep 86 09:47:06-PDT From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA> Subject: TV Shows (Electrawoman) Yes, Diedre Hall played Electrawoman in this show and the ever cute Judy Strangis (formerly of Room 222 and television commercials) played Dynagirl. Is Judy Strangis still working in television? Walter Chapman ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 86 04:05:16 GMT From: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu (Catherine Ariel Wolffe) Subject: Re: GIGANTOR smdev@csustan.UUCP (Scott Hazen Mueller) writes: >I can't give a definitive answer, since I'm a snob when it comes to >cartoon animation (if it was made for television, it stinks :-)). >However, as I recall, shows that I have _known_ to be japanese in >origin tend to have characters with very large, round eyes. I tend >to take this to be a characteristic of japanese animation...and, as >far as I can remember, Speed Racer (and the other characters in >that show) had very large, round eyes. > >I tend to wonder if these eyes have anything to do with the racial >differences in eye shape? The shape of the eye is more a matter of style than a matter of racial differences. In Japanese animation, the eye is used most for showing emotion. If a character is going to cry, the eyes quiver, and tears are seen forming. When a character gets angry, the eyes narrow and glints are strategicly placed on the eye. American, British, and French animation (I am only conversant of these styles) do not exploit the eye to this extent. A good example of the various styles of animated characters is Rankin-Bass' _The Last Unicorn_. All of the character but the Unicorn and the Lady Amalthea are standard R-B caricatures. The two forementioned characters are done in Japanese style. The expressions are quite different, noticably so. Catherine Ariel Wolffe ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 86 11:16:05 GMT From: grafton@idec.stc.co.uk (S. Grafton) Subject: Re: SF on TV Does anyone out there remember Saphire and Steel? It was dead good stuff. I'm still waiting for the re-run. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 17:21:35 GMT From: houligan!bseymour@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: SF Theatre, Just the facts mam Since several have asked, speculated, or otherwise commented on Science Fiction Theatre I thought the following would be of interest. SFT was broadcast from 1955-1957, in syndication only, the first episode being available April 1955. There were 78 episodes produced. The narrator was Truman Bradley, the producer Ivan Tors (you've heard of him). The above info came from the 3rd Edition of "The Complete Directory to Prime Time Network TV Shows - 1946 to Present". It's available at any good mall bookstore. Highly recommended as it has an index of actors/actresses. Real good for those head scratching questions like "Didn't he used to be in another show"? It also has lots of good reference sections such as prime time schedules for every year, and I think the Emmy award winners, and a list of the longest running series. Another book no-one interested in this discussion should be without is "Movies on TV" by Steve Scheuer. It has brief (TV listing type) reviews of thousands of movies. Good for reference, trivia, or just to look through. (Other similar books are available, Leonard Maltin has a similar one for example, I recomended the Scheuer one because that's what I have) Burch Seymour Gould C.S.D. ....mcnc!rti-sel!gould!bseymour ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 86 08:06:16 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: old TV show >Does anyone remember a weekly show called "Science Fiction Theater"? I even remember some of the original broadcasts of SFT. It was a syndicated show. One of my references said it ran in 1956 and was a close relative to ONE STEP BEYOND. I remember several of the episodes, not great by today's standards but it was once the only game in town. Its ideas showed up many times later. It had a story about a bionic man ("The four minute mile... and no strain!"), the lava story you mention, there was one about astronomers who meet a strange man who gives them a photo of the solar system taken from outside; there was one about an immortal man, that sort of thing. I am told that the film TARANTULA was a remake of their story "No Food for Thought" When I think of the old science fiction programs, I remember things nobody has mentioned. How about COMMANDO CODY? CAPTAIN MIDNIGHT (later JET JACKSON -- in reruns in which they dubbed over the name)? FLASH GORDON with Steve Holland? THE MAN AND THE CHALLANGE? WAY OUT? WORLD OF GIANTS? (I said WORLD OF... not LAND OF THE...) Anyone out there remember any of those??? (Oh, the people who have been talking about MAN INTO SPACE, that was the Disney cartoon documentary. The TV series you mean was MEN INTO SPACE.) Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 86 19:32:31 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Re: century of STAR TREK If you remember the beginning of Wrath of Khan, there is a blurb saying "In the 23rd century..." or some such. This fits the established chronology (well, published in TREK magazine), but I like the 22nd century idea better. Does anybody remember when Kirk said that poem he quoted in "City on the Edge of Forever" was written? I think that he said it was written "in 100 years," but I don't remember. This would give us a lower limit on the dates... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 86 09:46:25 edt From: jl42@andrew.cmu.edu (Jay Mathew Libove) Subject: Star Trek episode: Space Nazis?? Towards the top of SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #273 there is a comment on a new set of Star Trek TV show videos coming out soon (as follows:) >For those that are interested, another set of ST TV show videos >will be coming out in October. Among those released will be >_Tribbles_, Gamesters of Triskelion_, _Piece of the Action_, and >"Space Nazis". Could someone tell me what Space Nazis is in reference to? I don't remember any such episode. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 86 21:08:32 GMT From: ut-ngp!mentat@caip.rutgers.edu (Robert Dorsett) Subject: Re: Star Trek episode: Space Nazis?? From: jl42@andrew.cmu.edu (Jay Mathew Libove) > Could someone tell me what Space Nazis is in reference to? I don't > remember any such episode. The episode you're thinking of is probably "Patterns of Force." Kirk and his gang go to check up on his old mentor, a sociologist who's been instructed to "monitor" an up-and-coming planet. Turns out, he INTERFERED, and how. He elected himself as Fuhrer and turned the planet into a into a clone of Nazi Germany. Turns out there's another planet in the system, which is peace-loving, etc., and the Nazis want to remove it from existence. Kirk and Spock join up with guerillas sent by the peace-lovers to try to remove his friend from power. Turns out his friend wanted to create a *peaceful* Nazi Germany, based upon Nazi Germany's militarism (!). He messed up in choosing his right-hand man, however, who doped him up and used him as a figurehead, while advancing his own evil philosophies. Patterns of Force suffered a lot with all the other "Earth analogy" episodes, such as "The Omega Glory," "The Last Gunfight," etc. It just wasn't too original. Self-indulgent fantasizing. Incidentally, is the release for "Patterns of Force" ACTUALLY "Space Nazis"? Robert Dorsett Dept. of Astronomy University of Texas at Austin ARPA: mentat@ngp.cc.utexas.edu user%walt@ngp.utexas.edu UUCP: mentat@ut-ngp.UUCP {ihnp4,seismo,sally}!ngp!mentat@walt ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 86 12:43:10 GMT From: hoqam!bicker@caip.rutgers.edu (KOHN) Subject: Re: Star Trek episode: Space Nazis?? The name of the episode was "Patterns of Force". The man left behind on a previous mission was Dr. John Gill, an academy SOCIOLOGIST, one of Kirks teachers at SFA. He was left behind to observe and got a little carried away. The episode (as many in the series) had hidden meaning and message -- although this one wasn't too smooth. The scapegoats were the Zeons, a direct reference to the scapegoats of WWII, the Jews (Zion). This wasn't the worst done bit of symbolism done in the series, viz Yangs and Coms in the old glory episode. B.C.Kohn [Moderator's Notes: Thanks also to the following people who submitted the same or similar information: Mordecai Golin (princeton!mjg@caip.rutgers.edu) Phil Paone (paone@topaz.rutgers.edu) griffith@cory.Berkeley.EDU ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 86 12:51:07 edt From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) To: sf-lovers@red.rutgers.edu A Scientist both wise and bold Set out to cure the common cold. Instead he found this power pill "which", he said, "most certainly will Turn a lamb into a lion Like an eagle he'll be flyin', Solid steel will be like putty, It'll work on Anybody!" But then 'twas found this potent pill Made the strongest men quite ill And so the secret search began To find the one and only man. What they found made them squeamish, For only Stanley Beamish, A weak and droopy (?) daffodil Could take the special power pill That sent him soaring through the skies Fighting foes and fighting spies. When he took the pill specific It made him the most prolific, Terrific... MR. TERRIFIC! Yes, that was a fun TV show. No redeeming qualities, but fun. It beat Star Trek in the ratings that year. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Sep 86 23:33:14 EDT From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Myth Makers series... Does anyone have ordering information for the American format "Myth Makers" videotape series. This series featured never-before-seen interviews with the stars of Doctor Who. Could a list of the stars appearing in the MM series also be posted. I remember reading that Elisabeth Sladen (Sarah Jane Smith) was the subject of one of the tapes and I am very interested in ordering a copy. Thanks in advance. Stephen Pearl ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Sep 86 1619-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #302 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 20 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 302 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkein (12 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Aug 86 00:59:38 GMT From: public@wheaton (Joe Public) Subject: Re: Who was Tom Bombadil? From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> >Tom is under no restriction but what he himself chooses. He >regards Sauron and his "tricks" as irrelevant. Perhaps for an >unrestricted Maia, the Ring presents no threat. > >Or you could be absolutely right: Tom could be a being much more >powerful than Maiar, and unconcerned with their toys. It's been a long while since I've brushed up on Tolkein Mythology, so I may be all wet, but it seems to me this discussion has missed two important points. First of all, Sauron himself was a Maia, corrupted into Melkor's service sometime after the entrance of the Valar into the world to begin its preparation for the coming of the Children of Iluvatar. Second, one comment I've not seen mentioned came from the lips of Gandalf when at the Council of Elrond it was asked why the One Ring was not given to Bombadil to hold. Gandalf replied that such things held no power over Bombadil's mind and thus his domain was not a safe depository; even though nothing evil could find its way in, the ring was likely to be forgotten and eventually find its way out. And, said Gandalf, even should he retain the ring, yet the powers of darkness would, after overwhelming all else, assail Bombadil himself and Bombadil would fall, last even as he was first. Two points need to be made from this--first, Bombadil was "first". (What the signigificance of that is I'll leave to others). Second, Sauron was more powerful than Bombadil (who, assuming Sauron was a Maia, could not then be himself a Maia). calvin richter ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 86 19:37:16 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Origin of hobbits: query context@uw-june (Ronald Blanford) writes: >While there's no direct evidence that Illuvatar didn't create the >Hobbits, consider the following. Despite their similarities to >men, Hobbits resemble Dwarves and Ents more in that they were much >more interested in their own affairs than those of others, and that >they faded and disappeared as men came to dominate the world.... >Manwe interceded with Illuvatar on Yavanna's behalf when she wished >to create the Ents. Might he not have also had the foresight to >ask for yet another race of beings? If so, that would explain their >similarities to the Dwarves and Ents. My impression is that Hobbits do not really need a special origin. As I read the Introduction to LotR, the Hobbits are of the same "type" as Men. That is, in modern terms, they were part of the same species(Homo sapiens). That is they are more like the African Pigmies in origin than like the Dwarves. This is certainly supported by thier greater ability to get along with humans than with the other races, and by thier mortality. They certainly show much greater similarity to us psychologically than do either the Elves or the Dwarves. So, no, I do not think they were made by the Valar. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 86 20:05:41 GMT From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: TOLKEIN'S RIDDLE TO ENTER MORIA milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes: >I'd better read that piece again. I thought Gandalf's original >error was translating "say" as "speak", and that the correct >translation was "Say friend and enter". The distinction between >the two words can be subtle. I suppose it's even possible that the >Sindarin dialect used in the inscription used the same word for >both. You are right, the error was in fact a "mistranslation" of <pedo> as 'speak' instead of 'say'. Also, as far as I can tell Sindarin in general used this word for both "meanings". Or rather Sindarin assigned up the various meanings refering to speach acts to words in a different way than English. <Pedo>, and its Quenya cognate, seem to refer to individual, "atomic" instances of speach. Another word, perhaps <peno>, is used to refer to continued or protracted speach. This rather corresponds to the Perfective vs. Imperfective stems in Russian. Thus he did not really mistranslate it, rather he failed to properly identify it as a transitive usage as opposed to an intransitive one. Stanley Friesen UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 86 19:44:13 GMT From: utai!gkloker@caip.rutgers.edu (Geoff Loker) Subject: C.S. Lewis & Tolkein (was Re: Re: Lest We Forget) hoffman@hdsvx1.UUCP (Richard Hoffman) writes: >. . . C.S. Lewis ... was also a close friend of J.R.R. Tolkein. > >I have always suspected that Tolkein shows up in Lewis' work as the >professor in the Narnia stories, and as Ransom in _Out of the >Silent Planet_. Anyone know is there is any truth to this? Accoriding to "The Inklings" (I think) by Humphrey Carpenter, this just isn't so. Tolkein & Lewis were good friends, both were university professors, and they both belonged to a loose-knit organization called the "Inklings" (hence the title of the book) that was devoted to discussions of almost anything, including the literary efforts of members. (Incidentally, Charles Williams was also a member of the group.) There is little doubt that they had an influence on each others work, but Lewis apparently stated that the person he had based Ransom on was not Tolkein. I can't recall who it was based on, and my copy of "The Inklings" is buried away right now, but I think that the name was Dyson(?). Geoff Loker Department of Computer Science University of Toronto Toronto, ON M5S 1A4 USENET: {ihnp4 decwrl utzoo uw-beaver}!utcsri!utai!gkloker CSNET: gkloker%utai@toronto.csnet ARPANET:gkloker@ai.toronto.edu CDNNET: gkloker@ai.toronto.cdn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Sep 86 14:56:28 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Ents I don't remember the exact passage, but it seems to me that Yavanna did not create the Ents, but rather heard them in the Song of Iluvatar. Anybody remember this? Garrett Fitzgerald st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 86 19:29:08 GMT From: drutx!slb@caip.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden) Subject: A Flighty Ring Question Well, here's a LOTR question that comes from a friend of mine, a fellow devoted Tolkein fan, who doesn't have a login, but would like to ask your opinions: Why wouldn't the best solution to the ring problem be to enlist Gwaihir and the eagles from the start? They were certainly able and willing to fly into Mordor at the end to rescue Frodo. Why not send Gwaihir with the ring to drop it in the fire? (Perhaps with the other eagles to fly in as a diversion.) (Aside from the obvious answer that there would be no story if that were done, of course. We are looking for an *internal* reason.) Sue Brezden ihnp4!drutx!slb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 14:58:55 EDT From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (John White) Subject: Re: Origins of Hobbits. context@uw-june (Ronald Blanford) writes: > Manwe interceded with Illuvatar on Yavanna's behalf when she > wished to create the Ents. Might he not have also had the > foresight to ask for yet another race of beings? ... This bears some resemblance to a wholly madeup (I believe) origin of Hobbits a friend of mine put forth when we were in college (rather a long time ago). She was a DM, and she had created what we called a 'Special' for several hobbit characters that were being run - in effect a special adventure or quest for them. It was concerned with the origins of the hobbits, and was rather entertaining (Claire could run a mean dungeon, she sure could!), as was the "Answer" she came up with. In brief (because I only remember a little bit of it - it WAS a long time ago): Yavanna had grown dissatisfied with the ability of the Ents to carry out their duties - care of the her forests and green things - in the face of the increasing numbers of the fast-lived and fast-moving men. They just weren't able to cope, in the short run, with the actions and motivations of such hasty creatures. So, she petitioned for another race better equipped to deal with men. But, having been granted a rather unusual request for such a thing once, Illuvatar wasn't about to let her do it again - a person might get ideas, after all. So, a compromise was reached. Ents weren't able to fulfill their designated rolls in the face of the advancement of Man, so the Entwives were taken away, and from them came the first Hobbits - i.e. the Hobbits ARE the Entwives (some of them, at least). Again, this is pure theory, and rather fanciful, too. But, as a solution, it has its neat points. Also, it might explain why Treebeard was able to respond so quickly to Merry and Pippin, eh? John White WHITE@DREXELVM.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 16:33:56 GMT From: mlandau@Diamond.BBN.COM (Matt Landau) Subject: Re: A Flighty Ring Question slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) writes: >Why wouldn't the best solution to the ring problem be to enlist >Gwaihir and the eagles from the start? They were certainly able >and willing to fly into Mordor at the end to rescue Frodo. Why not >send Gwaihir with the ring to drop it in the fire? What chance do you think Gwaihir would have had against nine fully empowered Nazgul? Remember, by the time the eagles picked up Sam and Frodo, the Ring was in Orodruin and the Barad Dur had fallen, taking Sauron and the Nazgul with it. Matt Landau BBN Laboratories, Inc. 10 Moulton Street, Cambridge MA 02238 (617) 497-2429 mlandau@diamond.bbn.com harvard!diamond.bbn.com!mlandau ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 86 04:41:13 GMT From: epimass!jbuck@caip.rutgers.edu (Joe Buck) Subject: Re: A Flighty Ring Question slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) writes: >Why wouldn't the best solution to the ring problem be to enlist >Gwaihir and the eagles from the start? They were certainly able >and willing to fly into Mordor at the end to rescue Frodo. Why not >send Gwaihir with the ring to drop it in the fire? (Perhaps with >the other eagles to fly in as a diversion.) At that point in the story, Sauron's power and that of the wraiths had been destroyed, and his troops were in disarray and fighting each other. The only danger Frodo and Sam were in was from starvation, exhaustion, and thirst. I would think that at an earlier point, Sauron and the Nazgul could have wiped up the eagles with ease. The only thing the eagles had to do at the end was to fly in, pick up two small passengers, and leave. Not even any anti-aircraft fire. :-) Joe Buck {hplabs,fortune}!oliveb!epimass!jbuck nsc!csi!epimass!jbuck Entropic Processing, Inc., Cupertino, California ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 86 17:54:32 GMT From: netxcom!ewiles@caip.rutgers.edu (Edwin Wiles) Subject: Re: A Flighty Ring Question slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) writes: >Why wouldn't the best solution to the ring problem be to enlist >Gwaihir and the eagles from the start? They were certainly able >and willing to fly into Mordor at the end to rescue Frodo. Why not >send Gwaihir with the ring to drop it in the fire? (Perhaps with >the other eagles to fly in as a diversion.) Before the ring is destroyed Sauron had entirely too much power for such a bold (foolhardy?) and obvious attempt. It was much more likely that a small group traveling quietly and silently would succeed. After the ring was destroyed, much (all?) of Sauron's power would have been destroyed too, so it was reasonably safe to fly in. Edwin Wiles Net Express, Inc. 1953 Gallows Rd. Suite 300 Vienna, VA 22180 ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 86 14:27:24 GMT From: unc!melnick@caip.rutgers.edu (Alex Melnick) Subject: Re: A Flighty Ring Question slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) writes: >Why wouldn't the best solution to the ring problem be to enlist >Gwaihir and the eagles from the start? They were certainly able >and willing to fly into Mordor at the end to rescue Frodo. Why not >send Gwaihir with the ring to drop it in the fire? (Perhaps with >the other eagles to fly in as a diversion.) If the Eagles had flown into Mordor's airspace with the Ring, I suspect the Nazgul (who certainly could track the Ring) would have had no difficulty at all finding the Ringbearer (Gwaihir or whoever); and in a dogfight between the Nazgul and a squadron of Eagles, I'd put my money on the Nazgul. Then again, if enough Eagles were thrown into the battle, and if enough of a diversion could be mounted elsewhere, it *might* stand a chance, but not much of one. Sorry. Alex ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 86 13:48:35 pdt From: Mark Redican <vallejo!mark@sri-tsc.arpa> Subject: Gandalf, Frodo, and the Ring I just started reading LOTR again (for the nth time), and I came across something, on page 94 of TFOTR, that made me curious enough to seek comments on the net. In this section of the book, Gandalf has returned to Bag End to make a final determination as to whether Frodo's ring is indeed the One. Gandalf tells Frodo some of the history of the Ring, Frodo gets pretty upset about his present situation, and says things like "Why me?" He also says to Gandalf something like "Why didn't you tell me about this earlier so I could have destroyed the Ring or thrown it away (before the Enemy discovered the Shire and learned the name Baggins)?" Gandalf then says something like "Go ahead and try to destroy it Frodo, throw it back into your fire." Frodo makes a serious effort to cast the Ring into the fire, but he finds he cannot. Almost without realizing it, Frodo puts the Ring into his pocket instead of into the fire. My question is: How could Gandalf expect Frodo to cast the Ring into the Cracks of Doom under Orodruin in the Land of Mordor, if he couldn't even do it in his own living room? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Sep 86 1634-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #303 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 20 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 303 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Japanese Films and Animation (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Sep 86 21:50:18 GMT From: bnrmtv!zarifes@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes) Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory? > I wonder if anybody ever picked up on the anti-Americanism in > Godzilla-type movies? Just think about it for awhile... a huge, > ugly monster comes crashing in from the west, and reduces Tokyo to > rubble with flames and brute force... remember the fire bombings, > etc.? I don't believe it is anti-American. It is almost certainly anti-nuke. Japan is the only country to ever be nuked. The appearance of terrifyingly powerful natural forces that unleash incredible devastation upon their country almost seems like a natural national fear or national archetype (if you will) to develop. Ken Zarifes {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 86 03:26:51 GMT From: bnrmtv!zarifes@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes) Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory? > I don't believe it is anti-American. It is almost certainly > anti-nuke. Japan is the only country to ever be nuked. The > appearance of terrifyingly powerful natural forces that unleash > incredible devastation upon their country alomst seems like a > natural national fear or national archetype (if you will) to > develop. I should correct myself. The Japanese have been putting up with natural disasters for a long time. Everything from earthquakes, tidal waves, volcanoes and typhoons. So these movies may not be anti-nuke alone (if at all). Ken Zarifes {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 86 16:52:30 GMT From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory? elg@usl.UUCP (Eric Lee Green) writes: >I suspect that the Japanese have cashed in on American racism by >shipping us films which appeal to our own self-image as the >"superior race" and laughing all the way to the bank. Except I think the movies you're referring to were made for Japanese kids. They were shipped west because there was a market for them over here. >I wonder if anybody ever picked up on the anti-Americanism in >Godzilla-type movies? Just think about it for awhile... a huge, >ugly monster comes crashing in from the west, and reduces Tokyo to >rubble with flames and brute force... remember the fire bombings, >etc.? Hmmm. Except Godzilla became a hero in later sequels... and one of the (human) heros in the very first movie was American. (A certain Mr. Burr of Perry Mason fame, remember?) I still think you guys are way off the track. Take in account that these movies look different from an American perspective. We tend to think of the heros as Western and the bad guys as whomever we've fought lately. Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 86 15:34:11 GMT From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory? ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes: >Except I think the movies you're referring to were made for >Japanese kids. They were shipped west because there was a market >for them over here. Worse than that: they were made for the adults. Anyone out there watch STAR BLAZERS? In the last movie (FINAL YAMATO), there's a sex scene at the end that'd blush even these cheeks. The kids in Japan aren't ALLOWED to watch the cartoons. >Hmmm. Except Godzilla became a hero in later sequels... and one of >the (human) heros in the very first movie was American. (A certain >Mr. Burr of Perry Mason fame, remember?) Actually, no. Burr was shot and edited in after the original movie was made. (Did a pretty good job of inserting him, too. You can hardly tell.) BTW, they were ALL heroes at one time or another. I agree witth M. Zarifes (sp?), that it was an anti-nuke movie. Certainly the new one (GODZILLA 1985) was advertised by the Japanese as one. Also, Godzilla was created by a nuke, and nukes seem to make him only stronger. >I still think you guys are way off the track. Take in account that >these movies look different from an American perspective. We tend >to think of the heros as Western and the bad guys as whomever we've >fought lately. Sorry, but I still feel like the heroes on those cartoons ARE Western. In ALL of them, the Good Guys look American, even the ones that aren't exported to the U.S. OK, try this: (Show) (U.S. title) (Place) Urashamon (sp?) Future police Neo-Tokyo (San Fransisco) Gatchamon G-Force New San Fransisco Macross Robotech A U.S.-held Pacific Is. I also think that YAMATO's base was in S.F. (Kinda stilted view of the U.S., huh? I guess that from Japan, the biggest U.S. city is S.F. I guess the proximity makes for an appearance of SIZE! ;-) kaufman@orion.arpa kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Sep 86 09:54:41 edt From: ao06@andrew.cmu.edu (Ayami Ogura) Subject: re: Macross character portrayals I think it was mentioned in another post that the short, fat, balding, "Japanese" types are used mainly for comic relief, and I agree with that. But there are other factors as well, I think. First, Macross, as well as Star Blazers, Captain Harlock, etc. were made for a Japanese audience and they catered to Japanese taste and nationalism. In other words, although the hero/heroines looked like the western stereotype of the hero/heroine, the characters themselves were Japanese. Rick Hunter, in the original Macross series, was a young Japanese named Ichiro Hikaru. The entire Star Blazers crew was of Japanese descent, even "Nova" who is a blond. And so on. It's always been standard in Japanese animation that the leading heros and heroines be tall, thin, have different shades of hair other than black, large eyes, etc. and I guess this is partly due to the fact that the Japanese ideal of beauty is something they are typically not, but also because they tend to be a "hip," trendy culture, and the majority world view of beauty tends toward tall, thin, etc. etc. There are exceptions to this "rule" if it can be called that. The series "Galaxy Express" has as its male hero, a short, not particularly attractive boy. He looks like a younger version of the short, fat, balding types previously mentioned. This occurrence has a lot to do with the creator of the series, Leiji Matsumoto, who, incidentally, also created Star Blazers, Captain Harlock, Queen of a Thousand Years, and numerous other take-offs and sequels. I think Mastumoto was one of the most successful if not influential artists in the 70's and early 80's; sort of the George Lucas of Japanese animation. Anyway, it was one of his pet themes is that of the noble, ugly guy, who maintains honor and justice in a world where the "beautiful people" have forgotten such things. "Doctor Sane" of Star Blazers and, in Captain Harlock, the chief engineer and the guy with the glasses who was always playing around with models, all were characteristic of this theme (although Galaxy Express played on the theme the most). In the original Japanese series, characters had at least one episode where they were allowed to show what really great guys they are, even though they're usually in the background. Matsumoto, himself, look a lot like the engineer in Captain Harlock, so you begin to get an idea of where he got the idea. Minmei's uncle in Macross can't be explained the same way, since I don't think Matsumoto had a hand in it, except perhaps by his influence on Japanese animation in general. I've noticed, however, that it's not uncommon for the beautiful girl heroine to have really plain looking parents. This may be a throwback to a popular Japanese folk story called "Kaguya-hima" or "Light Princess" (very rough translation), in which a plain, aged couple find a beautiful child in the woods, and she grows up to be a beautiful woman, then it turns out that she's really from the moon, and all the moon people come back to get her and she has to leave her adopted parents. This is pretty flimsy speculation, though -- what do other Japanese out there think? P.S. The episode guide for Robotech is available. It's a little larger than the standard loose-leaf size, and about 300 pages. The first part is an episode-by-episode summary of all three series (in the American version, not the original Japanese), the second part is a character summary of all the major characters and mekka (Veritecs, etc.), and the last part is a short history of Japanese animation in general. I saw it in passing at the Kinokunia Bookstore in New York. You might be able to order it from them, if you're interested. The addresses of the Kinokunia Bookstore is: New York Kinokunia Bookstores 10 West 49th St. New York, NY 10020 (212) 765-1461 There is also a branch in Los Angeles, but I don't know their address. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Sep 86 09:05:43 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory? >Hmmm. Except Godzilla became a hero in later sequels... and one of >the (human) heros in the very first movie was American. (A certain >Mr. Burr of Perry Mason fame, remember?) Nope! Raymond Burr was not in the ORIGINAL Japanese film. He was in a re-editing of that film with additional footage was shot for American audiences to tone down the anti-American nature. As far as I know the original film has not been shown in this country at all. There are rumors that it had scenes of American scientists feeding Godzilla an H-bomb to try to kill him and turning him from a relatively benign creature into a monster as a result. The reshooting was crude. When the Japanese woman talks to Steve Martin (Raymond Burr) her back is to the camera so you do not see that it is a different actress. She is, however, wearing a different plaid blouse as they couldn't match the same plaid. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: mic!d25001@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross a ------------------------------ Date: 17 Sep 86 21:54:04 GMT From: hutch@volkstation.gwd.tek.com (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory? First off, you are all WAY off base with this nonsense about the heroes looking american. They do NOT look american. They look like Japanese. I suggest that you go out and watch a Samurai flick like Yojimbo or Seven Samurai. You will notice that there are several basic Japanese racial types. There are dark-skinned, short, chubby people. There are tall, pale, muscular people. There are some in between. There are some who more closely resemble northern chinese, short, thin, and pale but with flat features. The Japanese are strongly race-conscious because their culture was very segregated along racial/class lines until very recently. The samurai class was made up, for the large part, of taller, thinner, and paler people. The Japanese traditional ideals of male and female beauty are tall, thin but sensual, and pale. The peasant class was made up, for the large part, of shorter, rounder people. Remember Shogun? Remember that the general who was somewhat more coarse and humorous was also fat? This is a common idea in the Japanese culture. You will find it in the manga as well. In a book which is pure adventure, the heroes will have long mops of wind-blown hair, pale skin, tall, and skinny. The comic relief will be "potato people". In a book which is mixed or which uses the hero as a comic character sometimes, in those places where the hero is being "funny" (and Japanese humor is often rather physically brutal slapstick) the faces will change, and the mouth and eyes will be drawn more like "potato people". Second, what makes you think the kids aren't allowed to watch the cartoons? The very young children (under 8 or 9) are generally in bed by the time they come on, true, but then they also have cartoons aimed at them which aren't as violent or complicated or sexy. From the experience of friends who grew up in Japan, the kids are usually allowed to watch just about anything, but for some reason they don't get the idea that the world is accurately shown. As far as sex in Japanese cartoons, and in the manga: There is a type of cartoon book which isn't properly manga, but is essentially the same thing. These are the romances aimed at teenage girls starting at age 11-12 and popular among girls as old as 18 and 19. They involve a young, handsome, but gender-ambiguous teenage boy being explicitly sexually awakened by an older, often foreign, man. There are other anime which are NEVER going to be butchered by Harmony Gold, for instance, the Demon, a quaint story of a demon youth sent to the earth to a Japanese high school. Lots of sex and very bloody violence, but it was quite popular among young teens. >Sorry, but I still feel like the heroes on those cartoons ARE >Western. In ALL of them, the Good Guys look American, even the >ones that aren't exported to the U.S. No. Wrong. When they draw an American, they draw them very differently. Among other things, Americans (male) are either about a foot taller and 80 lbs heavier, or about 2 feet taller, lanky, and wear cowboy hats. Women, on the other hand, are either Japanese dark hair and eyes or they are blonde and blue eyes; anything else is comic relief. Now that I've said all this, there are two exceptions. First, when they explicitly depict someone as being from not-japan, as in the show currently running on Nickelodeon, "Mysterious Cities of Gold". Or the Japanese "Heidi". The second exception is when the characters are designed elsewhere, as in the Thundercats, Mighty Orbots, or various other shows whose characters are created in America. They are often worked over by the animators, but they tend to come out looking like Japanese animation of western characters. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 86 09:27:38 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: Japanese films (Godzilla) ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes: > I still think you guys are way off the track. Take in account > that these movies look different from an American perspective... Umm. These movies look quite a bit different from an american perspective. There is a tendency to reedit the film, depending on the market. I'm pretty sure that Mr. Burr was NOT in the original (japanese version) of Godzilla (I forget what Godzilla is in Japanese. Does anyone know why his name was changed for the American market?). Someone told me that in the Japanese version of King Kong vs Godzilla, Godzilla wins. This isn't limited to monster films. There is apparently a series of films about a blind swordsman (Zatoichi). China also apparently has a series of films about a one-armed swordsman. There is a film in which these two heroes meet. In the Japanese version, the Japanese swordsman wins. In the Chinese, the Chinese wins. Kind of amusing, really. I was at a short film a while back where the audience got to vote which way the film went at certain branch points. Kind of like that. Has this drifted far enough from the original topic yet? david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Sep 86 1649-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #304 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 20 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 304 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (12 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Sep 86 18:11:47 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: ALIENS THEORY From: watdragon!jsgray (Jan Gray) > We do. The queen hid in the structure of the troop ship, and > survived the vacuum of space on the trip to the mother ship. As has been pointed out, she was in the landing gear wells, which could well have been pressurized. Also, see replies below. From: CORY.BERKELEY.EDU!dillon > At then end of the original ALIENS, Mr Alien seemed quite > comfortable in vacuum as he attempted to climb back into the > escape craft after the lock was blown, until Ripley decided to > engage the thrusters. If you'll take another look at my previous posting on this subject, you'll notice that I made the point that a human being would've lasted *just as long* in a vacuum as "Mr. Alien" did before he was fried. And we don't really know, do we, how "comfortable" he was at that point. He might have been in pain, and trying to get back in the shuttle as much (or more) to keep from dying in the vacuum as to attack Ripley. From: cbmvax!eric (Eric Cotton) > However: The landing legs would have been down *before* the > landing bay was pressurized. Thus the queen would have been > exposed to a vaccuum for (at least) a brief period. Further, if > the landing leg cavity was indeed pressurized, wouldn't the queen > have been ejected by the escaping air? Second point first: Not necessarily. Not if there wasn't a great amount of air trapped in the cavity and she had a good grip on the top struts of the landing gear. First point second: Notice the word "brief" (your word). Notice what I said to Mr. Dillon above. I never claimed that the Aliens could not survive in a vacuum, only that there's no evidence that they can survive for very long. Based on the shuttledown time of the first dropship, and assuming that the Sulaco's position relative to the second dropship wasn't very great (the Sulaco probably wasn't too far away since it would have had to be close --- orbitally speaking --- for Bishop to make radio contact with it), the flight would likely have been no more than 20 minutes or a tad longer. I wouldn't be surprised if "Ms. Alien" could survive that long. But, there is a *major* difference between surviving 5-30 minutes and floating in orbit indefinitely with one's thumb out, waiting to hitch a ride with a randomly passing motorist. Which was the point I was originally rebutting. The chance that another ship would *randomly* happen by is, to excuse the expression, astronomical. The next ship that would *purposely* happen by would not be around for at least a month (assuming, for no particular reason, a 17-day flight back to Earth and another 17-day flight back to Acheron with another, or perhaps the same, combat ship). Is there any reason to assume that the Big Mother Alien could last for a month in a vacuum (and without sustenance)? --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 86 02:17:37 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Frost) Subject: More on _Alien(s)'_ weaponry phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) writes: >I suppose rail guns seem really cool but I wonder about the energy >density and discharge rate of smokeless powders vs any possible >battery required to operate such futuristic weapons. Since rail >guns use such powerful magnetic fields, what happens when two are >used close to each other? Do they attract or repell each other >(strongly!)? What does the magnetic field do to other electronics >carried by the soldier? Two points: The magnetic fields don't HAVE to be that strong -- they just have to pulse very fast. Incidentally, you could vary the speed of the fields to provide different muzzle speeds and projectile rotations with little work. This would make the gun extremely versatile. I admit, however, it'd probably make a terrible mess out of your digital watch.... Aren't there pretty efficient ways of killing a magnetic field anyway? For instance, I *know* they killed the field on my (ancient) Kaypro II power supply, since that's a mere 3 or 4 inches from the diskette drives. As for the amount of power, does anyone recall the amount of power that needs to be used to set off a common flash (like on a camera)? I bought a Xenon flashtube once (for playing with, of course) and the only way to power the thing up was with a coil, since the voltages were immense. But they have those (smaller) on half the cameras made today ... and they run off just 2 AA batteries. You'd need something better, of course, since we're talking about at least several times the current in much less time, but you could conceivably have multiple charging coils (each recharging as the others fire) hooked up to a strong battery that would provide adequate power and still have fast regeneration. I also draw on the assumption that somebody, somewhere, will think up the energy source to put conventional battery makers out of business (maybe like the one described in Heinlein's _Friday_?). That'd solve all our energy problems. Potentially, you should be able to store a lot of energy in a very small space, certainly much more than chemical explosives can give us. We just don't know how yet. I was really surprized that nobody tore my suggestion to shreds. I can't think of many other things you could do, or flaws in what I thought of (or got from other people -- all science fiction comes from previous...), but there are some pretty technical people out there. Maybe their postings aren't here yet.... Happily awaiting _Alien Designers_ or _Alien Origins_ or whatever.... Jim Frost UUCP: ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs BITNET: cscc71c@bostonu ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 86 06:59:01 GMT From: cec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: A Quick Aliens Question: tdawson@wheaton (Tony Dawson) writes: >When Ripley & co. make their "drop" from the mother ship we see the >cloud-covered planet through the open air lock. BUT when Ripley >blows the Queen out of the same lock we see a star field. Did I >miss something? Who or what moved the ship? Was it not the same >air lock? (I saw the movie twice and verified that there were >clouds in the drop scene). The ship doesn't necessarily have to have moved. Most likely it kept its orientation but moved further on in its orbit, so that the planet was no longer visible "underneath". pH ------------------------------ Date: 14 Sep 86 22:57:48 GMT From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas Cox) Subject: armor-piercing shells, acid blood, and Aliens phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) writes: >Also, since the aliens had such strong acids available (their blood >could easily eat through the floors and the soldier's armour) why >didn't they just melt down any doors in their way? "Hey, solider!" Yessir? "I need you to step up here, and bleed all over this door for me." Bleed, sir? "Bleed." Yessir. How much blood would you like, sir? "Coupla quarts." No problem, sir. I expect that the 'acid' blood of the Aliens was a passive defense, like their armor. Just because they carry it around doesn't make it "available" to them. Could you use your heart to pump water on demand? Anyway, when the Marines first mentioned that they carried explosive- tipped, armor-piercing rounds in their weapons, I was delighted. Nothing better to use on an exoskeletoned beast than something that would 1. penetrate that armor and 2. promptly blow up. Like putting an M-80 or three inside a pumpkin -- kablooey. Much better than, say, a lead slug or lead pellets. Trivia time: Anyone remember a scene where someone hands Bishop a pistol? Remember what he does with it? Any conjectures as to why? Thomas Cox ...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 86 14:40:15 GMT From: chinet!megabyte@caip.rutgers.edu (Dr. Megabyte) Subject: Re: Aliens: Why did Bishop give back the pistol? benn@sphinx.UUCP (Thomas Cox) writes: >Trivia time: Anyone remember a scene where someone hands Bishop a >pistol? Remember what he does with it? Any conjectures as to why? Yes, This was the scene were Bishop is being placed in the steam tunnel in order to go out and use his Tandy model 100+ (grin) to bring down the ship. One of the crew hands him a pistol which Bishops hands right back. WHY did he hand it back? I've often wondered that myself. Assuming that he follows Asimov's laws, then perhaps he felt that the humans needed it more than he did. I really just don't know, but I'll cros post this to net.movies Mark E. Sunderlin UUCP: (1) seismo!why_not!scsnet!sunder (2) ihnp4!chinet!megabyte (202) 634-2529 Mail: IRS PM:PFR:D:NO 1111 Constitution Ave. NW Washington,DC 20224 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 86 14:32:31 EDT From: Stev Knowles <stev@BU-CS.BU.EDU> Subject: Aliens We can assume that the cavern in the crashed ship in the first movie was moved into and taken over by the bugs as was the area under the reactor was in the second movie. I seem to recall the character of the ship changing as they got deeper into it, but I can't be sure. The question is, can we assume there was a queen back at the old ship, and that another queen formed at the colony (as some of you have stated could happen in the life-cycle of an alien.)? As I recall, the colony was some distance from the crash site, so it is possible (I suppose) that some may survive there also. I suppose there may even be yet another wreckage somewhere where they started (sorta like more than one ghost on a level, for you Hackers out there.) As an aside, I think it would be good for someone in "power" in the studios to read this stuff, maybe it would help them avoid some of the stupider things they could go into in the (possible) next movie, or give them good ideas for aspects to look at. stev knowles ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 86 16:37:10 GMT From: nbc1!abs@caip.rutgers.edu (Andrew Siegel) Subject: Re: A Quick Aliens Question: > When Ripley & co. make their "drop" from the mother ship we see > the cloud-covered planet through the open air lock. BUT when > Ripley blows the Queen out of the same lock we see a star field. > Did I miss something? Who or what moved the ship? Was it not the > same air lock? (I saw the movie twice and verified that there were > clouds in the drop scene). I'm pretty sure that the airlock that Ripley ejected the alien from was *not* the same airlock that the ship entered and exited from. The ship's airlock opened onto the hangar deck, while the service airlock in question was *integral* with the deck, and so was oriented 90 degrees away from the ship's lock. This would explain the apparent discrepancy. Andrew Siegel, N2CN philabs!nbc1!abs NBC Computer Imaging, New York, NY (212)664-5776 ------------------------------ Date: 17 Sep 86 23:27:23 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Frost) Subject: Why Bishop gave the pistol back megabyte@chinet.UUCP (Dr. Megabyte) writes: >WHY did he hand it back? I've often wondered that myself. >Assuming that he follows Asimov's laws, then perhaps he felt that >the humans needed it more than he did. Why not? Ash in _Alien_ was the only member of the crew who was not apparently concerned with getting killed by the alien. Why would the alien wipe out a robot? Certainly not to eat or to raise one of those things with. I think there's a limit to what kind of hosts it can use, and that's gotta be out-of-bounds. So: He's not worried about aliens killing him. Who *else* would he use the gun on? Nobody else would stand in his way. Therefore, it was most intelligent to give the gun back. Besides, it would just get in the way while he was crawling down the pipe. Jim Frost UUCP: ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs BITNET: cscc71c@bostonu ------------------------------ Date: 17 Sep 86 20:19:08 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: More on _Alien(s)'_ weaponry Actually, I never considered electromagnetic launchers in the guns (partly because of the muzzle flash--I didn't think there should be any in an em launcher). However. There was an article in the local paper yesterday saying that the army was investigating putting rail guns in tanks. Wow. So if the rifles were portable rail guns, you might see a muzzle flash from the escaping plasma. I'd think the barrel would have a different design if it were a rail gun, but it's hard to say. Certainly it fits in with the compact electric power supply that's been implied by other bits of technology in the movie. So. Has anyone figured out where the fuel for the flame throwers is kept? david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 86 10:30:55 -0500 From: Wes Miller <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA> Subject: ALIENS - VACUME SURVIVAL I believe that Ripley states somewhere in the beginning of the story (I believe at the hearing) that the creatures could survive in vacuum. I also seem to remember that in the first book, Dallas and company trapped the Alien in a room and decompressed it to no avail. Also, it is pretty unlikely that an external landing pod would be pressurized, much the same as not pressurizing them on airliners... there is no justification for the added expense. On the other mentioned subject about a 'several ton queen'. I would assume quite the opposite were true. Granted she is a big mother (sorry), but in watching the film these things are all very agile and climb walls and ceilings and jump all over the place without causing any damage normally associated with a large mass. Therefore, I contend that these creature are very light weight. Wes Miller ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 86 00:36:40 -0500 From: skitchen@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Subject: Alien Queen Survival Jim Frost writes: >Possibilities beside, there is no proof that the queen survived the >trip up "in a vacuum". jsgray@watdragon.UUCP is right. The queen survived the trip up in a vacuum. If anyone recalls the scene where Ripley and Newt are standing on the platform where Bishop was supposed to pick them up, you will remember that the dropship was knocked onto the platform by an explosion. It is clearly shown in that scene that the landing gear is jammed open by a piece of debris. My guess is that the queen crawled in there, survived the trip up, and was ready to go at it with everyone else once they got back to the Sulaco. Scott Kitchen ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 86 22:16:18 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes: > I can barely imagine collecting interstellar hydrogen at .99c. >I cannot imagine (and I doubt anyone else can, either) picking up a >useful quantity of fuel from a "Jupiter-like body" as you pass it >at .99c. Such a body would most likely have a rather large and extended atmosphere. It isn't necessary to get the fuel from the solid portion thereof (insofar as such bodies *have* solid portions). And, incidently, I *can* imagine picking up a useful quantity of fuel from the body itself. For example, one might send a probe ahead to blast it loose. Difficult and dangerous, yes; but not impossible. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Sep 86 1701-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #305 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 20 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 305 Today's Topics: Books - Delany & Dick & Laumer & McIntyre & Prescot & Simak (2 msgs) & Varley ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Sep 86 04:53:53 GMT From: ucdavis!ccdbryan@caip.rutgers.edu (Bryan McDonald) Subject: Re: Samuel Delany everett@hp-pcd.UUCP (everett) writes: >Quite early on I read several stories by Delaney, and enjoyed them >them IMMENSELY. > However, I got de-railed by Delaney when I tried tackling a new >(at the time) book of his (I can't remember the title) where the >character spends the entire novel wandering around this immense >city (post-holocaust, The book you are refering to is _Dahlgren_ (sp?). I tried to read it in a science fiction lit class taught by Kim Stanley Robinson ( _A Memory of Whiteness_, _Icehenge_) and only finished 300 of the 1000+ pages ( one book a week ). The plot was at times so convoluted that the only way to catch up was to reread from the start of the chapter. A great book for language and its uses. Too bad I have never been able to get back into it again. You might try _Nova_, much easier reading while still being a very good novel. Another of his to read is _The Tides of Lust_, but only if you are ready for an avalanch of profanity, sex, and what many would call perversion. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 86 02:24:26 MDT From: donn@utah-cs.ARPA (Donn Seeley) Subject: Re: Blade Runner vs Do Androids... 'Silas Snake' (if that's a real name, it's an interesting one!) saw the movie BLADERUNNER and then read Phil Dick's novel DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP? and was disappointed. I personally think that DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP? is one of Dick's better novels, and I certainly liked it more than Silas apparently did. I'll try to give a few reasons here why I think he might be missing some interesting features of ANDROIDS. (Beware -- some spoilers will unavoidably be introduced in the discussion.) Silas says that the purpose of ANDROIDS is to create a society with a unique religion, Mercerism, and ask 'What if?' I think the purpose is much deeper -- the book is trying to answer the question, 'What is the authentic human being?' Dick has invented creatures (androids) which are almost exactly like human beings but lack one essential human trait, empathy; this lack informs all of the action and all of the characterization in the book. Mercerism isn't important for its dogma, it's important because it is inaccessible to androids. The plot of the novel is only superficially concerned with Deckard's detective work -- the real point is Deckard's slow appreciation of the quality of the difference between androids and human beings. Notice how subtle this difference is: it requires a complicated and tedious test to identify an android, and humans are constantly confusing androids for humans. The most chilling aspect of this is the realization that so many human beings don't use their capacity for empathy, with the result that the planet is being taken over by androids and the humans have barely noticed. By saying that the plot is only 'superficially' about the detective story, I don't want to imply that the detective story is superficial. As a bounty hunter, Deckard is placed squarely in the middle of Dick's dilemma, since he must be able to distinguish androids from humans in order to survive. The plot events are organized to show Deckard's increasing confusion about his job and his approach to his final epiphany, not to highlight some spectacularly violent climax like BLADERUNNER's. For example, the sequence with the detective who fears that he may be an android is not just meant to provide suspense, it's there to illustrate the difficulty humans have in appreciating what makes them human. (Witness the detective's behavior with the singer android after her snide comments about humans being a superior life form, and Deckard's reaction to it: 'Do you think androids have souls?') I think the film copped out in giving 'replicants' the ability to acquire empathy. The novel's Deckard is able to empathize with the android Rachael even though Rachael is incapable of empathy in return; the movie's Deckard has a much easier task. There are some great images in the film and some memorable lines and I really did like it, but the movie lacks the book's intellectual adventurousness. If ANDROIDS disappointed Silas, he'll really hate other works of Dick's like VALIS or THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE... Philip K Dick is dead, alas, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 86 08:20:50 GMT From: akov68.dec.com!boyajian@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: THE INVADERS (books) From: convex!poole@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Poole) > ...I found a copy of the book THE INVADERS in a second hand book > store in Atlanta years ago. The cover had the INVADERS saucer and > claimed to be about the TV-series but that's where the > simularities ended. I still found the book enjoyable and have > looked for the rest of the series but have yet to see them. If this was by Keith Laumer, and had a red cover with a photo of Roy Thinnes and a saucer, then, yes, it was based on the tv show. Laumer did add a lot of his own ideas to it, though. There were only two other books in this US paperback series, ENEMIES FROM BEYOND (also by Laumer) and ARMY OF THE UNDEAD (by Rafe Bernard). Whitman Books also published a juvenile hardcover based on the show. And in the UK, there were two additional paperbacks, both by Peter Leslie: NIGHT OF THE TRILOBITES and THE AUTUMN ACCELERATOR. It might also be worth mentioning that the Bernard novel appeared in the UK under a different title, THE HALO HIGHWAY. And the first Laumer novel appeared there as THE METEOR MEN by "Anthony LeBaron". It's been 17 years or so since I read these, but I seem to recall that the two British paperbacks by Leslie were probably the best of the bunch. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 86 13:10 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Enterprise: The First Adventure To: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu Lisa Wahl's Official Prediction: Fan reaction to this book will be mixed, divided between those who read ST fanzines who'll hate it, and those who don't who'll love it. I'm in the former category. I've read so many good fannish stories speculating on the background of the Big E characters that it bugs me for an "upstart" (I don't care how many SF awards she's won) like Vonda McIntyre to do such a comparitively poor job. (But then, I've never forgiven her for giving Sulu and Uhura first names other than those used by fans for years, especially when all other pro authors followed her lead.) The key word is "self-indulgence". McIntyre's interested in giving the ST characters the background she'd like to see, in introducing her own ST universe characters (fortunately, Captain Hunter isn't too prominent), and not much interested in staying close to the tv series. (Clues to self-indulgence: a pegasus ((at least it wasn't a unicorn)) and a girl named Amelinda "My friends call me Lindy") I expect and can sometimes suffer through self-indulgence from fans, but from an award-winning pro author, I find it inexcusable. Much of this novel just doesn't ring true to me: Janice Rand, for example. In the series, she seems to be fairly new in "Corbomite Maneuver," but McIntyre has her with the Enterprise from the beginning. While I found the character McIntyre presented for Rand to be interesting, I don't think it coincides with anything we saw in the series. For another, okay, I ask ST viewers who haven't read this book to write in: How do you envision McCoy spending a shore leave? Hopping bars? On a Southern plantation drinking mint juleps? On a riverboat down the Missisippi playing Riverboat Gambler? Do you picture him, get this, white water rafting? Now, watch "The Naked Time" Sulu is pictured as a dilettante with a new hobby every week. This week, it's fencing. And, he fences like an enthusiastic beginner. Can you watch this episode and believe him to be a former championship-winning fencer? Of course, I guess she HAD to get McCoy in there, somehow, in spite of his not being in "Where No Man Has Gone Before." Chekov, too. Similarly, she didn't want to waste time on Gary Mitchell, since he's only around for one episode. *sigh* Why can't Pocket publish more good fannish-style novels, like Crisis on Centaurus? Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 17 Sep 86 03:57:59 GMT From: sphinx.UChicago!see1@caip.rutgers.edu (Ellen Seebacher) To: rochester!bullwinkle!batcomputer!cpf@topaz.UUCP Subject: Dray Prescot At last, someone else who appreciates the Dray Prescot series. Judging from the sales figures, however, there should be quite a few of us out here. I do tend to disagree with you on a few points. First off, I am of the opinion that this was not the "intentionally bad" series that we have heard so much about. My candidate is, for reasons that you have already mentioned, the "Dumarest of Terra" series by E. C. Tubb. "Prescot" is just too good and well thought out for my vote. Secondly, the Burroughs references. A number of the "Prescot" books mention that although many people compare it to Burroughs, it is much more reminiscent of John Norman's Gor series. Gor's hero, Tarl Cabot, is sent off on many a mysterious adventure for the equally mysterious Priest-Kings, a race of mantis- like aliens. Gor is also populated by many races, including intelligent spiders, that have been taken from their home planets by the P-Ks. Your mention of the airship dilemma was solved by Otis Adelbert Kline in the 1930's in his "Planet of Peril" series set on Venus. Kline was the only serious competition to Burroughs at the time. So far I have traced down six novels and one short story. The novels are set two on Mars, three on Venus, and one on the Moon. The short story takes place on Venus. As you seem to be a fan of ERB, I thought I would clue you in on a few facts that are not all that well known. When I was a kid I bought comic books. In doing so, I came across several pieces of a saga about a swordsman on Mars. The hero was Gulliver Jones. Years later in High School I was assigned to read "A Princess of Mars" and thought I had found the rest of the series. Well, I dug up the old comic books and found to my dismay that they were not the same. Several months ago I found the story. It was in an ancient paperback. The title was "Gulliver of Mars", originally "Lt. Gulliver Jones," and was written more than a decade before "Princess." In the introduction by Richard Luppoff he told the story of finding this story. The story is not in the Burroughs style, and the hero is not John Carter. The planet, however, is almost identical: From the twin cities of Helium right down to the River of Death. The author was Edwin L. Arnold. Arnold wrote one other book that was known to Luppoff. It was titled "Phra the Phoenician" and was also written before "Princess." In this book was the answer to another mystery. Phra was John Carter through and through. I have not yet located a copy of "Phra" but I hope the west-coast stores can supply a copy. Back to "Prescot." I do not try to compare Prescot to Gor in style, but in the setup of the planet and charecter development of Tarl. I do feel that the Gor series did fall apart after the seventh book (right where the series switches from Del-Rey to DAW). After that, the author has some real problems. I do agree that marketing is rather nonexistent for the series. I for one had a hard time completing the collection. I started it merely by chance when a local used-book store had the first several volumes. It was a pleasant surprise. For some unknown reason DAW has seen fit to republish the Krozair cycle. They should do the whole series, but DAW seems to have a problem with republishing; very few of their books have seen several printings. Gor appears to be a real favorite of theirs. Speaking of the Krozairs of Zy. Did you happen to notice in "the Suns of Scorpio" what celebrity reads the series??? (or at least that far) When reading of Dray's training for the Krozairs, I kept seeing the face of Mark Hamill, or more correctly, Luke Skywalker. Krozair training seemed very like Jedi training as far as battle and swordplay were concerned. This led me to believe that George Lucas is at least familiar with the series. I still can not agree with labeling Prescot as being in the Burroughs tradition. The three major ERB fan clubs have not listed it as being so. There are many who think that all that is needed to be in the Burroughs tradition is sword and sorcery style heroics on a fully thought-out planet. This is not the case, although it is part of the tradition. The rest deals with writing style and plot development (i.e. always just missing rescuing the heroine until the end of the book, or immediately losing her again if it was successful). Once again let me say that it has been a pleasure to hear from someone else who appreciates possibly the best series of its kind. Face it, how many other series, by one author mind you, can claim over thirty titles? Dumarest is the only one I can think of. Ellen Keyne Seebacher ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!see1 ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 18:15:00 GMT From: hp-pcd!everett@caip.rutgers.edu (everett) Subject: Re: Clifford Simak _Time is the Simplest No, he DID write a book called "Time And Again", I read it in high school, lo, these many years ago, (circa 1968 or 9). I thoroughly enjoyed it at the time (it's stuck in my mind, anyway... I can even remember the cover; it was published by Ace.) Everett Kaser Albany, OR ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 86 18:17:11 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: clifford Simak...FIRST From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd (Jim Frost) > Are you thinking of Simak's _Time is the Simplest Thing_? Or did > he write two books dealing with time travel? No, I'm thinking of TIME AND AGAIN, which, yes, does deal with time travel. It was written (or rather published) 10 years before TIME IS THE SIMPLEST THING. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 86 18:56:51 PDT (Saturday) From: Don Woods <Woods.pa@Xerox.COM> Subject: Persistence of Vision I seem to recall hearing, two or three years ago, that the reprint paperback of Persistence of Vision was missing two pages of text somewhere. I even recall looking at my copy (which I'd bought because I'd foolishly loaned my first edition, and may never see it again) and verifying that there was a gap in the text. But when I mentioned it to someone recently, and he challenged me, I couldn't for the life of me remember where the gap was nor find it in a casual flip through the book. Does anyone recall where this was? Please reply to me directly, lest the net get flooded with multiple responses. Don ...!parcvax!woods Woods@Xerox.com] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Sep 86 1714-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #306 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 20 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 306 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Sep 86 05:01:53 GMT From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Literary Criticism Is Far From Cut and Dried > Mr. Berch speaks with the fervent preconception of a > fundamentalist inventing excuses for the slaughter of the > Midianites. Heinlein was clear; he did not dryly note a few > positive effects; he stated outright that the nuclear war was > "good for the country". Go back and check the quote if you don't > believe me (and I'll grant you, it's hard to believe). He then > went on to say that it had "turned the tide" toward the triumph of > freedom, and that the net effect would be to "improve the breed". > Not hesitantly, not dryly, not in passing - Heinlein states > outright and enthusiastically that nuclear war would be a > wonderful thing! A Heinlein *character* makes the statement. And hasn't anyone heard anymore of overstatement as a form of irony? There is in Heinlein's writings an undeniable streak of a certain kind of elitism, coupled with a conspicuous lack of any sympathy of their opponents. My personal opinion is that this reflects the author's viewpoint. Nevertheless, Ethan Vishniac's reply brings out a point which I wish to expand upon. Let us take another Heinlein book: _Glory Road_. Here we have another supercompetent Heinlein hero (and the heroine is the absolute icon of all Heinlein heroines), but one very different from Farnham. I cannot imagine "Oscar" having anything at all good to say about nuclear war. His attitude towards incompetence is more along the lines of "fine, just leave me alone". Which are you going to choose as the mouthpiece of the author? If you choose one, you must choose the other as well. SF is innately speculative. With respect to Heinlein's books, while I'd say that the main characters do tend to speak for the author, there's generally no ratification of the societies in which they are placed. Farnham's plight is a case in point; I have little doubt that Heinlein meant approval for Franham, but clearly he thinks the situation Farnham is in is pretty rotten. (By the way, Tim, why aren't you sniping at H. G. Wells? _Farnham's Freehold_ is, after all, an out-and-out rip-off of _The Time Machine_.) C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 13:53:38 GMT From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (S. Luke Jones) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb > Because you demanded it, pilgrim, herewith the quotes proving > Heinlein's support for nuclear war. These are taken from "Ghastly > Beyond Belief", an anthology of bad and embarrassing science > fiction excerpts. If you're going to run down literature, you ought to read the original rather than a collection of excerpts taken out-of-context by people who (as the title of their collection indicates) had an axe to grind. > First, from "Pie in the Sky": It's "Pie From The Sky" not "Pie In The Sky." > There are so many, many things in this so-termed civilization of > ours which would be mightily improved by a once over lightly of > the Hiroshima treatment. This is nothing. He also says that a nuclear war would get rid of mothers in law, and put an end to special days like "National Tulip Day." But I'm amazed the editor(s) of _Ghastly Beyond Belief_ didn't catch the sarcasm. In fact, I suspect they did catch it, but ignored it in order to "prove" their point. It isn't hard to catch: all but the last page or so of the essay lists petty gripes people have that a nuclear war would get rid of. The last page says (sorry I don't have it with me, but I usually read for pleasure, rather than to refute deliberate disinformation) something like "But, if you're one of those softies who _likes_ indoor plumbing..." and there follows a list of the ammenities of civilization which would be absent after a nuclear war, "then you should run, not walk, and phone your congressman...." The entire point of "Pie From The Sky" -- if you read the story itself, rather than a collection of blurbs more misleading than anything you might find on the back cover of a paperback -- was to drum up grass-roots support for the U.N. The story was written after WWII when it looked to some as if the US might opt out of the UN the way it avoided joining the League of Nations at the end of WWI. (Since then, mercifully, Heinlein has come to the realization that a world government of the type the UN would be if it had any teeth would be worse than no world government. But that's not part of the story.) > Next, a typically didactic Heinlein monologue from "Farnham's > Freehold", a post-holocaust novel of which Michael Moorcock wrote > in the critical/political essay "Starship Stormtroopers", "It's > not such a big step ... from *Farnham's Freehold* to Hitler's > *Lebensraum*." I can't believe this! The entire book catalogs, in detail, exactly what the horrors associated with a nuclear war would be. In the scenario in the book this includes having one's hometown (near Cheyenne Mtn in Colorado) smashed by an A-bomb, and, in life after the attack, the hero's daughter dies in childbirth because the civilization you accuse Heinlein of sneering at (above) is missing. I won't spoil any more, but only a complete *idiot* would call the post-war life in _Farnham's Freehold_ a cakewalk. Hardly a close step to "Lebensraum." But, in one conversation, the protagonist mentions how this [nuclear] war was different from all the others. (This was of course the one chosen for quotation out of context.) Hugh Farnham says the war might be better than previous wars, because the intelligent have a better chance of survival than in previous wars. Pacifists have been saying for hundreds of years that "if generals and politicians had to risk their own lives, there would be no more wars." Heinlein is stating essentially the same thing. And he says that this war, because it is a war of mass destruction, is the closest thing there's ever been to that. No-nukers have been saying since 1945 that the first atomic war would be the last, etc. etc. S. Luke Jones (...ihnp4!mtung!slj) AT&T Information Systems Middletown, NJ, U.S.A. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 13:31:26 GMT From: hope!corwin@caip.rutgers.edu (John Kempf) Subject: Re: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb If you will read Expanded Universe by RAH, you will find a short story titled (I believe) "Solution Unsatisfactory", as well as a couble of articles that he wrote in an attempt to cause the public to be aware of the threat of a nuclear war. Those of you who have not read Expanded Universe really should not talk about his opinions on the matter. cory VOICE: (714) 788 0709 UUCP: {ucbvax!ucdavis,sdcsvax,ucivax}!ucrmath!hope!corwin ARPA: ucrmath!hope!corwin@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu USNAIL: 3637 Canyon Crest apt G302 Riverside Ca. 92507 ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 86 13:19:18 GMT From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb >Here, I *am* more familiar with the context, and, as I suspected, >the quote in context is far less clearly nucleophilic. Consider: >The quote explores the hypothesis that a nuclear war would cull the >"unfit", and that hardy, freedomloving folk might selectively >survive. (Even so, it is worth noting that again he did *not* say >that the net effect would be beneficial.) YOU LIE!!! He said that the war would be good for the country in the very first paragraph. What the hell is wrong with you jerks, can't you read perfectly plain and straightforward English? Am I to be reduced to simply quoting him again and again while you deny that he said what he said in the very clearest possible terms? Tell me, what does it mean to you to say that something will be good for the country? That the country has been going downhill and that this will be the turning point? Tell me which particular word you don't understand and I'll be happy to define it for you. Oh, I forgot. HEINLEIN said it. Therefore, it can't say anything wrong. If it does say something wrong, just squint during that sentence. I notice not one of you Heinlein supporters has had the balls to include the relevant quotes I gave from "Farnham's Freehold", because if you did, the discussion would be over. Tim Maroney {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 86 13:08:14 GMT From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb >If Heinlein himself said (and not one of his characters) that he >supports nuclear was (no rational human being does and I believe >Heinlein to be rational) then you would have proof. Surely you could not have missed the obvious fact that Heinlein's character was delivering a polemic of Heinlein's, as always happens in Heinlein's books. The pedantic speechifying was obvious. Tim Maroney {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 86 22:28:00 GMT From: styx!mcb@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb One thing that I missed on the first go-round is that Mr. Maroney apparently has not read FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD nor Heinlein's excellent book of essays, EXPANDED UNIVERSE, in anything near their entirety Anyone who has done so and could seriously entertain the thought that Heinlein is in favor of nuclear war is, simply, dealing in a different mental space than the rest of us. Evidently, Mr. Maroney has come to his conclusions about the "fascism" of American SF writers, RAH included, on the basis of an essay by Michael Moorcock, the noted British new-waver and ideologue. Interesting. I would also like to know in what way Heinlein and his colleagues are "fascists". My Merriam-Webster here defines fascism as "A political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation or race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition." (1977 edition, p. 416) This is most interesting. Obviously this closely resembles Robert A. Heinlein's political views! (:-) I wonder if Mr. Maroney would care to flesh out his thesis, or if he merely defines the word "fascist" to mean "anything I don't agree with." > Mr. Berch speaks with the fervent preconception of a > fundamentalist inventing excuses for the slaughter of the > Midianites. [...] Not being a fundamentalist, I am not familiar with the slaughter of the Midianites. Will somebody enlighten me? > I know Heinlein is probably one of your heroes, Mr. Berch, [...] Of course he is. I am not ashamed to say so in any public forum, including this one. > [...] And "Pie in the Sky" is even more unambiguous: "There are > so many, many things in this so-termed civilization of ours which > would be mightily improved by a once over lightly of the Hiroshima > treatment." Evidently Mr. Maroney both 1) did not bother to read the paragraphs surrounding the quoted material, and 2) is unfamiliar with the rhetorical device of irony. > collection "The Opium General", deals not primarily with the > fascism of many science fiction writers, but of the peculiar > phenomenon of their support by people who disagree with their > views; Mr. Berch has given us a fine example of this. Now you've lost me. Who said I disagreed with RAH's views? I am not a fascist, nor is he (see definition above). Mr. Heinlein and I certainly differed in our views about the nature and necessity of the Vietnam war, and probably disagree about a whole bunch of relatively important things, but are pretty much in sync otherwise. What gives? Michael C. Berch ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA UUCP: {ihnp4,dual,sun}!lll-lcc!styx!mcb ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 86 17:47:18 GMT From: tektronix!davest@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Stewart) Subject: Re: Pie From the Sky It seems to me that the upshot of `Pie in the Sky' was that the reasoned response was to prepare yourself for the worst by getting yourself in shape physically, learn all sorts of survival skills and be ready to jump for your hidey-hole when the big one comes. (Although this might not have been in `Pie in the Sky' I *know* it was expounded by Heinlein in one of his magazine essays). This is highly motivational and quite noble. However, in light of the current view of the ecological impact of an all-out nuclear exchange, it would not matter where one is located on the planet - it's probably lights out. WAR DAY and all aside, it is naive to think that the survivalist approach will work. Does this imply that Heinlein is naive? Possibly. However, RAH is one of those authors who is not afraid to make outrageous statements in order to evoke reaction. I respect him on this, even though I strongly disagree on most of these stated opinions (especially his statements on religion). There is some benefit in this: after all, it gets people off the fence and into the arena of discussion on crucial issues - and there is no more crucial issue that I know of than racial suicide. David C. Stewart Unix Systems Support Group Tektronix, Inc. uucp: tektronix!davest csnet: davest@TEKTRONIX phone: (503) 627-5418 ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 86 18:00:30 GMT From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb (actually, author's Subject: intents) tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >Surely you could not have missed the obvious fact that Heinlein's >character was delivering a polemic of Heinlein's, as always happens >in Heinlein's books. The pedantic speechifying was obvious. Surely you could not have missed the obvious fact that authors are not to be trusted with regards to intent. In "Stranger In a Strange Land" (and in Number of the Beast), Heinlein gives us an author who has no scruples about writing specifically for the market, without ever trying to put his own opinions into the writing. He's rather successful at it, too. Example 1: Robert Frost was once asked by the head of a poetry circle what was the true meaning of "Stopping By Woodside On A Snowy Evening". He replied that it was about stopping by woodside on a snowy evening. The head of the poetry circle went away, secure in the knowledge that he now knew what the poem was about. A question is, did he? I think it is more important to look at individual works on their own merits, not without worrying about this "author's intent" issue. The questions you raise then turn from "Is Heinlein in favor of nuclear war" to "Is Farnham's Freehold an argument for nuclear war?". Example 2: Many years ago, on my English AP, I was asked to write an argument. There were 2 philosophy teachers at my school who incessantly argued over how to teach kids. I answered the question by writing down a typical conversation between the two. Either part of the conversation could easily have been called "Courtney polemic mode", although I only agreed with one of the views. I think both sides of a discussion tend to use authoritarian voice, in everyday life. I think the correct conclusion is not that Heinlein has"mouthpiece" characters, but that lots of his characters argue this way. Example 3: In the "Summa Theologica", Thomas Aquinas uses a pretty strict form of argumentation: he makes some attempt at convincing the reader of a straw dog position of some form, then shows it to be false, then presents a new position which he thinks must really be the case. I think the section of "Farnham's Freehold" you cited is simply the straw dog section of the argument. Seeing the results is the grim proving this position to be in error. Tom ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Sep 86 1733-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #307 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 20 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 307 Today's Topics: Television - Anderson (2 msgs) & Battlestar Galactica & Doctor Who & Far Out Space Nuts (2 msgs) & Project: UFO & Star Trek (4 msgs) & More SF TV ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Sep 86 21:41:30 GMT From: loral!dml@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis) Subject: Re: Old SF-tv (Anderson) jrw@hropus.UUCP (Jim Webb) writes: >Speaking of Anderson, he did some intriguing shows with, hell, they >weren't puppets, but I hope you know what I mean. I remember one You mean marionettes - articulated puppets on strings. >about this family how lived on this island and had all these >rockets and aircraft that were numbered. One of them was this sort >of flying box car that could carry differing payloads in its belly. >It stood over a moving conveyer belt that moved the various pods >under- neath. Another rocket shot out from under their swimming >pool, that slid aside to allow it to shot past. That was "Thunderbirds". I believe there were 9 rockets, each specialized for some function. >This show also had a "CloudBase" or something with female rocket >fighter pilots, or was that another show? That show was "Captain Scarlet" (or Scarlett - it's been about 17 years) Ah, yes, the old Gerry & Sylvia Anderson marionette shows, distributed by ITC. I remember four or five of them - wonder if they're available on videotape anywhere? Lemme see, there were: Thunderbirds - the exploits of International Rescue, which was pretty much a family operation. Dad was a lot like Lorne Greene in Bonanza or Battlestar Galactica, take your pick. There was a movie in about 1969 where they had to go to Mars and rescue some astronauts from Martian snakes that spit Roman-candle fireballs. Captain Scarlet(t) - Cloudbase, women flying rocket fighters right along with the men, UFO's attacking . . UFO was a live-action version of this one. The UFO's even looked the same. Stingray - a city that could be lowered underground, submarine (Stingray) launches from a long tunnel ending in big rock doors. I remember that Stingray didn't use an ordinary propeller but something conical with vanes on its outer surface. There was an episode about a gigantic pearl (some 4 feet in diameter) that attracted clams. When they took it aboard Stingray hundreds of clams attached to and jammed the impeller. Supercar - must have been the first one I saw, 'cause I don't remember much. It ran on wheels, but also had rockets. I remember it launching from an inclined ramp that raised up on hydraulic cylinders. Was there another one? I dimly recall images that don't fit any of these four but I could be wrong. I liked all of them, but I was <10 years old so they might not actually be that good. I'd still like to see them again. Dave Lewis Loral Instrumentation San Diego {sdcsvax!sdcc3|kontron|crash|gould9}loral!dml ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 86 00:04:11 GMT From: apollo!johnf@caip.rutgers.edu (John Francis) Subject: Re: Old SF-TV (Thunderbirds) >Speaking of Anderson, he did some intriguing shows with, hell, they >weren't puppets, but I hope you know what I mean. I remember one >about this family how lived on this island and had all these >rockets and aircraft that were numbered. One of them was this sort >of flying box car that could carry differing payloads in its belly. >It stood over a moving conveyer belt that moved the various pods >underneath. Another rocket shot out from under their swimming >pool, that slid aside to allow it to shot past. This show also had >a "CloudBase" or something with female rocket fighter pilots, or >was that another show? Aaah, that brings back the good old days... You mean "Thunderbirds". "Thunderbird 1" was the rocket (red). I think "Thunderbird 2" was the big green flying box-car thing. Another one (3 ?) was a combination spaceship and submarine, and another one was a space station. There were also two feature-length movies - "Thunderbirds Are Go!" and "Fireball XL-5". The female rocket fighter pilots were, I think, from UFO. (at least they were if you mean the ones with purple hair and skin-tight flight suits). Trivia Questions - o Who was Lady Penelope? o What make was her car ? o What colour was it ? o What else was unusual about it ? ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 86 15:40:40 GMT From: hammer!andrew@caip.rutgers.edu (Andrew Klossner) Subject: Re: Lost in Space >"In Battlestar Galactica, the super-cylon set to advise Baltar had >a very familiar voice - that of the man you love to hate, Jonathan >Harris, aka Dr. Smith." It was Patrick Macnee (sp?), he of the bowler and brollee on "The Avengers," who later played an antichrist figure on B. G. By the way, B. G. makes a lot more sense when you know that much of it was inspired by the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints ("the Mormons"). Andrew Klossner (decvax!tektronix!tekecs!andrew) [UUCP] (tekecs!andrew.tektronix@csnet-relay) [ARPA] ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 86 13:01:40 GMT From: carnellp@usrcv1.dec.com (Fanmail from some Flounder?) Subject: Re: Dr. Who Roadshow - Review & Spoilers Well, I went down to the mall this weekend to check out the Dr. Who Experience USA Tour. The presentation consists of a tractor trailer filled with props and costumes from the show, the Dr.'s car Bessie sitting outside, and a merchandise counter out front selling all sorts of things with the special "USA Tour" logo. It cost $2.00 to take a tour of the trailer and includes a flyer describing the displays. A sign indicated that all money collected for this would go to the local PBS station. You enter the trailer through a police box and step into an undersized replica of the Tardis control room with control panel. This is the only display in the exhibit that is not a real prop from the show and kept behind glass. You then walk along a a zig-zag path through the trailer past glass display cabinets containing the props and costumes. These include: (taken from the flyer ) a Dalek, mask of Sutekh, mask of Davros, mask of a Cryon, a Robot of Death, a Sea Devil, mask of Sutekh, mask of the Malus, the Ergon, a Sontaran, a Tractator, a Cyberman, a Silurian, an early Cyberman mask, mask of a Mutt, mask of a Marshman, mask of a Styggron, the High Priestess headdress from "K9 and Company", mask of the Gastropod Nestor, and finally, in a free standing glass case, K9. Then you exit through another police box and step out next to Bessie (you can have your picture taken sitting inside her for $5.00) and a merchandise counter. During the whole tour there are various recorded sound effects playing in the background and little speeches by some of the characters topped off with one by K9. Many on the full sized mannequins move (in a jerky sort off way) and K9 performs most of the functions it did on the show. Now for the down side. The exhibit is disappointingly small, both in size and content. The aisles are to small to allow you to see things full length and the area around K9's case is too small for you to crouch down next to it for a closer look. There is not one single prop or costume of the Doctors' (or any other "human" character), no still pictures showing scenes from shows, nor any attempt at labeling the displays. If you were not a Dr. Who fan you would have no idea what you were seeing! There is almost no lighting inside the trailer, the aisles are dark and people trip over one another regularly (it is also impossible to read the flyer they give you to explain what you are seeing). The displays are lighted by small spot lights inside the cabinets that flash on and off. This makes it hard to get a good look at anything (there was a great debate going as to whether "K9" was painted on the side of the model. This was finally resolved when someone lit a match!). I won't say that you shouldn't waste your time seeing this exhibit, it may be the only chance you'll ever get to see anything from the show. But I will admit that if the money hadn't been going to PBS, I'd have felt I was being ripped off. Now for the schedule. According to the people behind the counter, they are not scheduling more than four weeks in advance. Where they go depends on what PBS station will sponsor them for a week. But for the next few weeks this is their schedule: Sept. 20-21 Rochester, NY Sept. 27-28 Cleveland, OH Oct. 4-5 Minneapolis, MN Oct. 11-12 "somewhere in West Virginia" After that "somewhere south for the winter" The tour will be on the road for two years and they hope to hit every city that Dr. Who plays in at least once. Paul Carnell. DEC Software Services, Syracuse, NY UUCP: {decvax, ucbvax, allegra}!decwrl!usrcv1.dec.com!carnellp APRA: carnellp%usrcv1.DEC@DECWRL.COM ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 15 Sep 1986 08:15:14-PDT From: routley%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: SF TV Shows >>Finally, I recall the title music to an SF show, but I'm pretty >>sure I never watched it. The opening was animated, and there was >>a gorilla or monkey in it somehow. The first bit of the opening >>is: >> It's about time >> It's about space >> It's about men from the human race > >The lyrics are from the title tune for IT'S ABOUT TIME, but my own >dim recollection is that the third line is > > It's about two men in the craziest place. My recollection might be wrong, but if Kathy's recollection is correct, then it reinforces mine. I seem to remember a Saturday morning SF TV show that may have had an ape in it. They had an Apollo-lander looking spaceship, and they were marooned on this desert planet. The plot was essentially "Gilligan's Island in Space", especially since the "two men in the craziest place" were the very same actors who played Gilligan and the Captain on Gilligan's Island! None of the other Gilligan's Island actors were in the show, just (maybe) this monkey. All sorts of stupid adventures. Did any of that make sense? It was some (6+ years) time ago, just guessing. kevin routley ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 86 15:25:35 GMT From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone) Subject: Re: SF TV Shows The show starred Bob Denver & Chuck McCann. It was called "Far out Space Nuts". It had to due with two NASA supply workers getting blasted into space by mistake. Phil Paone ------------------------------ Date: 17 Sep 86 01:26:04 GMT From: cae780!alan@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: SF TV Shows There was another prime-time show in the late 70's called Project:UFO. 2 Air Force officers (part of Operation Blue Book) would go investigate UFO sitings. First, what the witnesses claimed to see was shown. Then the investigation began. The strange thing was that sometimes the investigators would prove that it was a very terrestrial event (like a mirror catching sunlight in a certain way), but other times they would seem to indicate that it was actually a UFO incident. Alan Steinberg textronix!cae780!alan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 86 19:37:11 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Star Trek 20th Hmm. Was I out of touch, or was there very little fanfare over the 20th anniversary? I heard about an interview on the Today show, and about a report on the local news, but that doesn't seem like too much. The local station with STAR TREK rights has relegated it to 7 AM Saturday morning. Well, on the brighter side, STAR TREK the comic this month had a story where the crew of the Excelsior (they got it after the Enterprise went bye-bye) meets the crew of the Enterprise (no comment on method, read it yourself). One problem... they MISPRINTED THE DATE! They said it was 9/6. I think in a couple issues we will be seeing a BIG apology in the lettercol.... Pocket released Vonda McIntyre's story ENTERPRISE shortly before the 20th...it's about the first mission of Captain Kirk on the Enterprise. Don't take anything she says for granted, there's a lot of inconsistent stuff, even leaving out her portrayal of Scotty. The convention in Boston for the anniversary is in NOVEMBER (!!!!). I heard a rumor that the Great Bird was trying to get permission to show THE VOYAGE HOME there, but I haven't heard anything since. My own celebration was, rather surprisingly, on the 8th...I showed the movies, "Balance of Terror", and "City on the Edge of Forever" on a rented 25" TV. The turnout was decent, about 50 people at its most crowded. Interesting...nobody would commit themselves on how legal showing the tapes was. Oh well, that's all for now. And remember, no matter where you go, there you are. Oops, wrong movie. LIVE LONG AND PROSPER! st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Sep 86 15:18:40 -0800 From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: Vulcan greeting in strange places Kevin Waugh, (I couldn't get through to you directly) The vulcan "live long and prosper" hand-sign came from Jewish ceremony (Nimoy was raised Jewish). I believe it represents one of the letters in their alphabet, but I forget. Nimoy remembered feeling great power in this sign when seeing it used in ceremonies as a child, and thus it came to mind when he was trying to think up a greeting for Vulcans. Thus what you saw could have seen an incidental Star Trek joke, or merely a Jewish family instructing their child. By the way, the nerve pinch was also one of Nimoy's ideas. A script called for Spock to deck someone with a right cross, but Nimoy felt that the peaceful Vulcans, with their superior logic, strength and concentration, would have found a less violent and energy-consumptive way to subdue people. They then developed the nerve pinch. Spock has, in following episodes, occasionally used the old fashioned way when rushed. Before the action continues, Kirk usually pauses a moment to rib Spock about it with a quick comment like "Isn't that a bit barbaric?". Jim ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Sep 86 09:52 CDT From: Wilcox@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: century of Star Trek Eyal Moses Writes: > Some more evidence for the 22nd century theory: in "tomorrow is >Yesterday" when they go back in to the 1960s, and Kirk is captured >... One guard yells at him: "We'll send you to jail for the next >200 years", and he then murmurs "that should be about enough". I have a different impression on the meaning of that line. James Tiberius Kirk has a life span of about 200 years, thus putting him away for 200 years would "be about enough" to allow him to die there. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 86 15:36:36 BST (Sorted by Postman Pat) From: Silas_Snake <CCU1693%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk> Subject: Star Trek's Century. I always understood that in the FORMAT of ST, it was specifically set in the 23rd century (still roughly consistent with the Space Seed lines) but the two hundred year imprisonment line is backed up in another episode. When the Enterprise crew meets Abraham Lincoln, I believe Scotty refers to the fact the he died "over three hundred years ago!" This, of course also places it in the 22nd Century. Silas_Snake%UK.AC.Bradford.Central.CYBER1@ucl-cs.arpa Silas_Snake%UK.AC.Brad.CYBER1%UKACRL@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Sep 86 15:07 CDT From: "David S. Cargo" <Cargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: More Old SF on TV Two more shows had memories just pop into my brain. (1) Topper (Leo G. Carol?) about a couple of ghosts coming back to liven up the doings of the man who bought their house after they had died. Based on the novel by Thorne Smith. (2) One Step Beyond. I was never clear if this was all suposed to be true or not. One show I remember from about that time was about a murderous necklace; it was a pearl choker.... ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Sep 86 1747-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #308 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 21 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 308 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Sep 86 22:00:24 GMT From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb I just happen to have a copy of Heinlein's *Expanded Universe* right at hand; let's look at some of these things in context: >...These are taken from "Ghastly Beyond Belief", an anthology of >bad and embarrassing science fiction excerpts. Can you pass me a reference to this, by the way? Sounds like fun... I'm assuming they made the pull out of context, since I can't believe you'd pull something that low yourself. >First, from "Pie in the Sky": Okay, "Pie from the Sky," page 175 Ace edition of *Expanded Universe.* Let's quote the first couple of paragraphs to start with: Since we have every reason to expect a sudden rain of death from the sky sometime in the next few years, as a result of the happy combination of the science of atomics and the art of rocketry, it behooves the Pollyanna Philosopher to add up the advantages to be derived from the blasting of your apartment, row house, or suburban cottage. It ain't all bad, chum. While you are squatting in front of your cave, trying to roast a rabbit with one hand while scratching your lice-infected hide with the other, there will be many cheerful things to think about, the assets of destruction, rather than torturing your mind with thoughts of the good old easy days of taxis and tabloids and Charlie's Bar Grill. [okay, here it comes....] There are so many, many things in this so-termed civilization of ours which would be mightily improved by a once over lightly of the Hiroshima treatment. There is that dame upstairs, for instance, the one with the square bowling ball. Never again would she take it out for practice right over your bed at three in the morning. Isn't that some consolation? No more soap operas. No more six minutes of good old Mom facing things bravely, interspersed with eight minutes of insistent, syrupy plugging for commercial junk you don't want and would be better off without. .... ... best of all, you will be freed of the plague of the alarm.... If you are snapped suddenly out of sleep in the Atomic Stone Age, it will be a mountain lion, a wolf, a man, or some other carnivore, not a mechanical monstrosity. It's too much work to copy the rest of the first, sarcastic section of the article -- but I'll catch a couple of high points: o Men who bawl out waitresses o The preacher with the unctuous voice and the cash-register heart. o People who censor plays and supress boooks. So let's go on to the second part of the article, the part where the voice changes and he is talking straight: ....In spite of the endless list of things that could be made of the things we are better off without I do not think it will be very much fun to scrabble about in the woods for a bite to eat. For that reason I am thinging of liquidating, in advance, the next character who says to me, "Well, what difference does it make if we are atom-bombed -- you gottas die sometime!" I shall shoot him dead, blow through the barrel, and say, "You asked for it, chum." Now for what I think is the clincher: the final paragraphs. If you really want to hang on to the advantages of our slightly wacky psuedo-civilization, there is just one way to do it, according to the scientists who know the most about the new techniques of war -- and that is to form a sovereign world authority to prevent the Atomic War. Run, do not walk, to the nearest Western Union, and telegraph your congressman to get off the dime and get on with the difficult business of forming an honest-to-goodness world union, with no jokers about Big Five vetos or national armaments... to get on with it promptly, while there is still time, before Washington, D.C., is reduced to radioactive dust, poor devil. These paragraphs PROVE to me, without a shadow of a doubt, that the person who exerpted that original quote was doing so having either not read the article, or was *consciously,* *purposefully* trying to assassinate Heinlein's character. Why? I don't know: I suspect it was from some ideological aim, but I don't have enough evidence to say for sure. And I know Tim personally -- while he is sometimes strident, I've never seen him be intellectually dishonest, so I assume it was not him. But I'd look really closely at whoever wrote that "Ghastly Beyond Belief" -- sounds to me like there is a subtext, a reason, behind the choices. Might as well claim that Abraham Lincoln was a Confederate Officer. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 86 18:29:40 GMT From: teddy!svb@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen V. Boyle) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >It is highly questionable whether any quote eight paragraphs long >can be reasonably said to be "out of context". > >YOU LIE!!! He said that the war would be good for the country in >the very first paragraph. What the hell is wrong with you jerks, >can't you read perfectly plain and straightforward English? Am I >to be reduced to simply quoting him again and again while you deny >that he said what he said in the very clearest possible terms? What 'he' is being discussed here? Heinlein or Farnham? If it is Heinlein's essay, then the long quotes previously offered clearly display the satire that the piece offered. (In this case, "eight paragraphs" are indeed necessary to convey the complete context.) If the speaker in question was Farnham, then within the setting of a piece of _FICTION_, it is stated (post-nuke) that what has happened _might_ wind up having some beneficial effects. Again, as was previously stated, the scene was a discussion between a person who is very depressed (justifiably) and a person who is presented as a character who will make the best of a situation, i.e., a 'survivor type', if you will. Steve Boyle ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 86 06:34:51 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@caip.rutgers.edu (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) writes: >The only of Heinlein's works which contradicts the usual right-wing >stands of some of his novels is "Stranger in a Strange Land" which >seemed to me at the time to approach positively the whole >counterculture of the hippies of the 60's. I consider it an over-simplification to label Heinlein's work as right-wing or otherwise. True, some critics have labeled Heinlein as a fascist or worse, but perhaps this is a case of trying to gain points by attacking the biggest bad guy in town. Panshin has perhaps one good novel to his name (Heinleinian at that), and Moorcock is a self-admitted hack... In a typical novel, Heinlein mixes some of his basic beliefs, and a handful of speculative notions, extrapolates and presents a possible result for your consideration. Now, there's plenty of room for argument about Heinleins basic beliefs, but it's pretty silly when people start getting upset about the speculative notions. There are many authors far more dangerous than Heinlein when it comes to trying to warp the minds of America by presenting questionable ideas as as basic premises. From reading Heinlein, I find that he has some basic beliefs which tend to remain constant in his works George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 86 18:28:53 GMT From: usl!elg@caip.rutgers.edu (Eric Lee Green) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb Someone mentioned Mark Twain. Very fitting reference. Many of Twain's characters were elitist, racist, etc. Twain used that as a device to show just how ridiculous it is to hold such views, for example, two aristocratic-types fight a feud like backwards hillbillies and have wax fruit on their mantle (presumably, because they're wax people), Huck Finn treating Jim as property while Jim would willingly give his life and freedom for Huck, and so forth. One of Heinlein's characters saying "Oh well, maybe there are some good uses for nuclear war", and then seeing the eventual results of such an attitude, seems to be a similiar device. Eric Green {akgua,ut-sally}!usl!elg (Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191, Lafayette, LA 70509) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 86 13:15:26 GMT From: whuts!orb@caip.rutgers.edu (SEVENER) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb I read Farnham's Freehold and it certainly seemed to me to be more of a paean to "survivalism" than to actions to stop a nuclear war in the first place. The protoganist is praiseworthy for stocking up with everything from food to encyclopedias to prepare for the aftermath of World War Last. His major concern is protecting his survivalist fiefdom from looting by others who are starving and so forth. But that's OK, because we know that it should be "every *MAN* for himself" after any disaster, right? "Farnham's Freehold" is hardly a realistic view of the effects of nuclear war whatsoever. For example, because an all-out nuclear war would destroy the ozone layer, animals and humans without their eyes shielded would soon be blinded. Then of course there is the likelihood of the Nuclear Winter effect. Heinlein could be excused for not mentioning these since both were just discovered in the past decade. But then another effect should have been well-known to Heinlein which he never bothered to deal with in his paean to "survivalism". Namely the certainty than any all-out nuclear war would lead to massive firestorms, leaving those in shelters like "Farnham's Freehold" to be either cooked alive like those in Dresden, or else suffocated by the lack of oxygen consumed by such torrential flames. It has been a long time since I read "Farnham's Freehold" but I also don't recall much discussion of the pernicious effects of radioactivity- in the region around Chernobyl, a minscule incident compared to the effects of an all-out nuclear war, they have to strip off the top inches of thousands of acres of topsoil because it is excessively radioactive. If you strip off the top inches of fertile topsoil to avoid radioactivity, the soil left will be practically useless for growing crops. Nor do I recall Heinlein talking much at all about radiation sickness, leukemia, cancer, etc. The whole impression I recall from "Farnham's Freehold" was that nuclear war involved big terrific explosions but if you prepared your own survivalist holdout for yourself and you alone, that you could make it. Of course a required part of your survivalist gear is at least one gun, if not several, so you can shoot the few surviving humans left and assure your own survival. I.e. maintain the same idiotic mentality which has placed us in the current position of facing the imminent extinction of the human race at any time! I would say that as I recall Heinlein's story in "Farnham's Freehold" that it more closely resembles Reagan's Undersecretary of Defense, T.K. Jones statement that "we can survive nuclear war with enough shovels. Just dig a hole a few feet thick and jump in it." than any statement by pacifists or even people like Eisenhower or Khruschev ('the living will envy the dead') tim sevener whuxn!orb ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 86 01:15:58 GMT From: meccts!mvs@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael V. Stein) Subject: Re: Heinlein's supposed panegyric for the Bomb I find it a little strange that people are trying to use what an author has a fictional character say, to indict the author's character. Does this mean that, if someone writes a story where a major character is a terrorist, the author is one also? If you truely wish to discuss Heinlein's political views, the place to start would be where Heinlein actually states his views. To quote from "Expanded Universe" by Robert A. Heinlein, pp. 145-146: ...The general public is just as dangerously ignorant as to the significance of nuclear weapons today, 1979, as in 1945 - but in different ways. In 1945 we were smugly ignorant; in 1979 we have the Pollyannas, and the Ostriches, and the Jingoists, who think we can "win" a nuclear war, and the group - a majority? - who regard World War III as of no importance compared with inflation, gasoline rationing, forced school-busing, or you name it. There is much excuse for the ignorance of 1945; the citizenry had been hit by ideas utterly new and strange. But there is no excuse for the ignorance of 1979. Ignorance today can be charged only to stupidity and laziness - both capital offences. I wrote nine articles intended to shed light on the post-Hiroshima age, and I have never worked harder on any writing, researched the background more thoroughly, tried harder to make the (grim and horrid) message entertaining and readable. I offered them to commercial markets, not to make money, but because the only propaganda that stands any chance of influencing people is packaged so attractively that editors will buy it in the belief that the cash customers will be entertained by it. Mine was not packaged that attractively. ... But I continued to write these articles until the USSR rejected the United State's proposals for controlling and outlawing atomic weapons through open skies and mutual on-the- ground inspection, i.e. every country in the world to surrender enough of its sovereignty to the United Nations that mass weapons war would become impossible (and lesser war unnecessary). The USSR rejected inspection - and I stopped trying to peddle articles based on tying the Bomb down through international policing. I wish that I could say that thirty-three years of "peace" (i.e. no A- or H- or C- or N- or X bombs dropped) indicates that we really have nothing to fear from such weapons, but because the human race has sence enough not to commit suicide. But I am sorry to say that the situation is even more dangerous, even less stable, than it was in 1946 If this isn't proof enough to end this silly charge against Heinlein, I can quote more. Michael V. Stein Minnesota Educational Computing Corporation - Technical Services UUCP ihnp4!dicome!meccts!mvs ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 86 01:33:20 GMT From: oliveb!jerry@caip.rutgers.edu (Jerry Aguirre) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb I can't represent myself as knowing Heinlein's views on nuclear war but I think it is important here to not identify a character with the author. The character may, at the begining, see nuclear war as having desirable consequences but the book does NOT. When they finally are contacted by and taken into the post war society I think you will have to agree that it is not represented as an improvement on current day society. They are slaves in that society and make every effort to escape. (Flash! Heinlein promotes slavery in his books :-) In fact when that same character is sent back to his own time he tries to do everythink in his power to change that future. The book doesn't tell us if he is successful. This is not exactly the socio-genetic house cleaning that Farnham predicted. So, you can either represent Heinlein's views with the statement of one of the characters or as the overall plot of the book. Given that this is a work of fiction it is not reasonable to do either but certainly the overall plot and ending should be taken as more representitive of the ideas promoted by the book. My impression was that the ending showed the folly of that "survival of the fittest" attitude. Quotations of quotations has got to be the height of taking quotes out of context. Have you read the books you are quoting or just someone else's pre-digested interpretation of what they mean? And no, Heinlein is not one of my favorite authors. Jerry Aguirre @ Olivetti ATC {hplabs|fortune|idi|ihnp4|tolerant|allegra|glacier|olhqma} !oliveb!jerry ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Received: from maus.rutgers.edu by RED.RUTGERS.EDU with TCP; 24 Sep 86 07:08:56 EDT Received: from RED.RUTGERS.EDU by maus.rutgers.edu; Wed, 24 Sep 86 07:06:31 EDT Message-Id: <8609241106.AA04127@maus.rutgers.edu> Date: 23 Sep 86 0924-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #309 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 23 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 309 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Sep 86 00:01:27 GMT From: muffy@arisia.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) writes: >Then there is, of course, Heinlein's series on the "Methuselah >Complex" in which a secret group of "genetically superior" people >who have secretly crossbred to attain incredible lifespans are >persecuted and envied by the mass of the "genetically inferior". "genetically superior"? Hardly. The assumption was made that long life was genetic, and could be bred for. The "Howard Foundation" proceeded to find people whose grandparents were long-lived and induced them (with money) to marry each other and have children. They are only "genetically superior" in whatever gene or genes apply to long life. Other than those, they seemed to be pretty normal, or even worse off than the general population (lots of bad reinforcements due to inbreeding). It is true that they were envied and persecuted by the less long-lived...people are wonderful that way. You may enjoy using nice loaded words like "superior" and "inferior" to magnify the emotional impact (oh, that Heinlein is such an awful person, saying that there are "genetically superior/inferior" people, just like racists have done...and so forth), but this need to rely on the emotional impact in place of the truth makes your statements less believable. Muffy Muffy@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA muffy@arisia.berkeley.edu muffy%arisia@Berkeley.EDU muffy%arisia@ucbjade.BITNET muffy@lll-crg.arpa {ihnp4,decvax,decwrl,sun,etc}!ucbvax!arisia!muffy ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 86 23:15:57 GMT From: watdcsu!dmcanzi@caip.rutgers.edu (David Canzi) Subject: Farnham's Freehold Here is a quick summary of what I remember of the story from having read it long ago: Farnham lives in a city and has a shelter under his house. Just before the nuke hits, Farnham and his wife go down to the shelter. The bomb hits. They stay in the shelter for some period, not knowing that they have been bumped into the distant future. When they emerge, they discover that the blacks are in power and whites are kept as slaves. Unable, after some effort, to housebreak Mr. & Mrs. Farnham, their masters get rid of them by sending them back in a time machine. I have left out some details to save space, and so as not to spoil the story too much for those who haven't read it. Now, it most definitely *is* possible for an eight-paragraph quote to be out of context. If, for example, Farnham made his little speech about how nuclear war is good for the country and/or species while they were huddled in the shelter, then emerged into the future to have his nose rubbed in reality, it means something quite different from what you take it to mean. I suppose that I'll have to reread the book to find out when Farnham made that speech. Now, I tend to wonder, Tim, about your motivations... you could be harping on this subject in order to force us to check out the facts and *think*, and if necessary re-evaluate our attitudes towards Heinlein, and to discourage us from reflexive knee-jerk thinking. Such an interpretation is suggested by the last paragraph of your article, which I have included above. On the other hand, what seems more likely, you could just be motivated by a dislike for Heinlein or some of his ideas, and you use out-of-context quotes to make him seem like some kind of monster, so that people who are not familiar with him will be discouraged from reading his books. Regardless of your intentions, your articles are most likely to have the latter effect... David Canzi ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 86 15:39:47 GMT From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb >I remember back in the 60's that Ramparts magazine had a number of >excerpts from Heinlein's remarks in support of Vietnam, nukes, and >a number of odious positions. These particular quotes are not the >only ones in which Heinlein advocates unsavory views. Good evidence here -- "unsavory views." Ghod forbid someone should have unsavory views. >I recall one of his stories in which he treats very sympathetically >the carrying of lethal weapons, a more advanced type of gun, and >conducting regular shootouts with them. heinlein treated such >vigilantism as if it promoted some sense of "honor". yep, he sure did write about people carrying weapons. It's called *Beyond This Horizon*, and in it he also promotes such unsavory views as living together without benefit of marriage, women who refuse to adapt their professional life to a husband's, governmental control of the economy, and men wearing mauve nail-polish. But let's think for a minute -- my handy desk dictionary does not define "vigilantism" per se, but it does define a vigilante as a member of a vigilance committee, and further defines a vigilance committee as "...an informal council exercising police power for the capture, speedy trial, and summary punishment of criminal offenders...." In BTH, the bearing of personal weapons is not part of some commmittee, and further there are clearly formal methods by which the law is enforced. Near the end of the book, citizens are gathered to fight an armed insurrection, but they are gathered by the government -- thus they are a militia, not "vigilantes." And RAH did *not* treat weapon-carrying as promoting a sense of honor -- there were plenty of dishonorable people carrying guns. What he *did* treat it as promoting was *courtesy*, which is a wholly different thing. >Then there is, of course, Heinlein's series on the "Methuselah >Complex" in which a secret group of "genetically superior" people >who have secretly crossbred to attain incredible lifespans are >persecuted and envied by the mass of the "genetically inferior". I guess the quotation marks are supposed to tell us that you don't accept the Howards as genetically superior; but the fact is that they *are* superior in the special sense that they have long lifespans. No other sense, but RAH makes the point more than once in *Methuselah's Children* that the Howards are *not* superior in any other sense, vide for example the time when Lazarus Long says something to the effect of "Bub, you are a perfect demonstration of why the Foundation should have bred for brains instead of long life." If you insist on finding a special meaning for this business of the Howards, how about as an allegory for the treatment of the Jews by most of Western Civilization -- a closed group which is envied for their "superiority" (financial, this time) and driven out by their more powerful "inferiors." Hell, RAH even *calls* this "the Diaspora." But of course, no "right-winger" would ever write something that treated a minority group sympathetically, so that can't be it. Can it? >The only of Heinlein's works which contradicts the usual right-wing >stands of some of his novels is "Stranger in a Strange Land" which >seemed to me at the time to approach positively the whole >counterculture of the hippies of the 60's. Son of a gun. This right-wing fascist wrote a novel in favor of free love and group sex and communal living and swimming naked. How do you explain that? First of all, check your dates: Stranger was written in the late 50's and published in 1961 -- he beat the hippies to the punch by 5 years at least. So he wasn't just *reacting* to the counter-culture, he was *proposing* a counter-culture. In fact, he was proposing one that came close to the late-sixties hippie mode, which I take it from your posting you approve of. So, what are these terrible odious views we've seen discussed? 1) A sovreign world-government with the power to stop wars started by *any* country (non-fiction: "Pie from the Sky"; fiction: *Space Cadet*, *Rocketship Galileo*, etc.) 2) Government control of the economy: *Beyond This Horizon*. 3) NO Government control of the economy -- in fact, no government at all: *The Moon is a Harsh Mistress*, others. 4) Violent overthrow of an oppressor: *The Moon is a Harsh Mistress*, *Between Planets*, the short story "Free Men," and many others. 5) Professional (wages, promotion, etc) equality of the sexes: *The Rolling Stones*, *"The Number of the Beast"*, etc.... 6) the evil of racial predjudice, and the idea that owning slaves is inherently corrupting: *Friday*, *Farnham's Freehold*, *Methuselah's Children*, and others. 7) Free love: the right to love and have sex with whomever is willing and with whom you care to, not withstanding marital situation, race, or gender: *Stranger*, *The Moon is a...*, *Friday*, the last two Lazarus Long books, etc. 8) Incest: Lazarus Long books. (I want a button that says "Lazarus Long is a motherf---er", [adroitly edited for the children reading this...].) Not to mention some trivial things: the essential evil of organized religion, the foolishness of Fundamentalist Christianity, men wearing makeup, prostitution as an honorable calling, dressing sexily because it's nice, and sleeping with your professors. Okay, I'm tired of this now. The point is made already, I think: RAH is one strange kind of right-winger. So if you all don't like his views, that's fine -- but let's not make things up, nor edit RAH's real views, so that he is properly Politically Incorrect so he can be reviled. It's not fair, it's not nice, and it make the refutation too easy -- who likes to shoot at sitting ducks? Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 86 17:39:54 GMT From: ames!barry@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb Warning: *SPOILERS* of FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD below. From: orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER): >I read Farnham's Freehold and it certainly seemed to me to be more >of a paean to "survivalism" than to actions to stop a nuclear war >in the first place. The protoganist is praiseworthy for stocking >up with everything from food to encyclopedias to prepare for the >aftermath of World War Last. His major concern is protecting his >survivalist fiefdom from looting by others who are starving and so >forth. But that's OK, because we know that it should be "every >*MAN* for himself" after any disaster, right? Even though I consider FF to be one of Heinlein's worst books, it does have an interesting ambiguity. Is Hugh Farnham praisewrothy? On first inspection he seems a pretty typical Heinlein protagonist: competent, self-confident, independent, smart and tough. But, what happens to him? His fancy, expensive bomb shelter gets blown through time by some unknown side effect of a direct hit. Farnham is saved not by his own foresight, but by incredible luck. When he attempts escape from the tyrannous society he finds in the future, it's a flat failure. He's caught, and only the generosity and curiosity of the tyrant allow he and his to eventually return to their proper time. Not, however, before he also fails to save his son from castration. He's also a failure in his personal life. His wife is a useless alcoholic, and his son a worm. Finally, the typical Heinlein hero ends up very well off by the end of the book. Head of a company, head of a planet, hero of a war, whatever. Farnham ends up with a few acres surrounded by barbed wire and mine fields. Is this a fief, or a prison? I don't know what Heinlein intended, but whatever his intent, I think one can read FF as a story about the limitations of self-sufficiency and not its virtues. >"Farnham's Freehold" is hardly a realistic view of the effects of >nuclear war whatsoever. I've excised your documentation of this because I agree. I don't think FF is in any real sense about nuclear war. The war just sets the stage for a story that ends up being an allegory of racism, and a study of extreme individualism, among other things. It is an unusually bleak book for RAH, and the protagonist is not a terribly likable fellow. He's often more querulous than commanding, and lacks the knack that other Heinlein heroes have for being right when it counts. If one must ask what the book's message about nuclear war is, I think it portrays nuclear war as a very bad idea. But that message is not central to the story. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA ELECTRIC AVENUE: {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,hplabs}!ames!barry ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 86 08:12:14 GMT From: reed!jeanne@caip.rutgers.edu (Jeanne DeVoto) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes: [quotes which purportedly "prove" that Heinlein supports nuclear war] In the words of Spider Robinson, I grow weary of hearing someone I care about slandered. Let us examine Tim's charges: >First, from "Pie in the Sky": >There are so many, many things in this so-termed civilization of >ours which would be mightily improved by a once over lightly of the >Hiroshima treatment. Tim...this is called *irony*. The fact that it is not festooned with :-)'s may have misled you, but if you had bothered to read the article rather than taking an out-of-context paragraph from some anthology, I'm sure you would have caught the intended meaning. Herein the first paragraph of the essay in question (from _Expanded_Universe_, c. 1980 by Robert A. Heinlein, p175) "Since we have every reason to expect a sudden rain of death from the sky sometime in the next few years, as a result of a happy combination of the science of atomics and the art of rocketry, it behooves the Pollyanna Philosopher to add up the advantages to be derived from the blasting of your apartment, row house, or suburban cottage." Clearly RAH is in dead earnest here.(:-), for those who, like Tim, are afflicted with atrophy of the sense of (black) humor.) >Next, a typically didactic Heinlein monologue from "Farnham's >Freehold", [condemnatory quote from critical essay of Michael Moorcock, followed by dialog between two characters in "FF" in which the hero states his belief that nuclear war would result in genetic improvement of the species through culling] Point the first: the opinions of the characters--even the opinions of the hero--cannot necessarily be assumed to be identical to the opinions of the author. This is a problem seen in a lot of criticism of fiction, and for some reason it seems to crop up especially often in discussions of RAH's work. ***Robert Heinlein != Hugh Farnham *** Point the second: which is that Farnham's statements are perfectly true. ANY disaster which results in widespread death and destruction, in which a person can improve his/her chances of survival by being prepared and otherwise exercising his/her intelligence, will bring about an increase in the average intelligence of the affected population. This is, as "Barbara" states, elementary genetics. But it is a far leap from accepting the idea that nuclear war would select for intelligence to espousing the proposition that such a war would be a desireable occurrence, and that's not something I can see either Hugh Farnham or RAH saying. So, considering the first point above, what do we *know* of RAH's opinion? Here he is, speaking in the first person, in the introduction to the article titled "Pie in the Sky" from which Tim quoted: "Here are three short articles, each from a different approach, with which I tried (and failed) to beat the drum for world peace. Was I really so naif that I thought that I could change the course of history this way? No, not really. But, damn it, I had to try!" (quoted from _Expanded_Universe_, pp146-147) This is *not* some critic's speculation on what RAH *really* meant, *not* Tim Maroney's interpretation of RAH, *not* what some fictional character said...this is straight from the horse's mouth, circa 1980. The defense rests. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Received: from maus.rutgers.edu by RED.RUTGERS.EDU with TCP; 24 Sep 86 07:09:02 EDT Received: from RED.RUTGERS.EDU by maus.rutgers.edu; Wed, 24 Sep 86 07:06:37 EDT Message-Id: <8609241106.AA04130@maus.rutgers.edu> Date: 23 Sep 86 0940-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #310 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 23 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 310 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Tickets to the Moon & Filks & Religion in SF & Who is Han Gyodon? & Tidal Forces (3 msgs) & Conventions (2 msgs) & Time Travel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Sep 86 16:41:27 GMT From: mplvax!rec@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Pan AM tickets - to the moon When I joined the Science Fiction Book Club in the mid 50's I received a certificate from them guaranteeing me a ticket on the first commercial flight to the moon whatever the cost. Back then it was a safe offer. They had what certainly looked like a solid legal agreement drawn up and printed on a very nice looking certificate. I still have it stored in my parents cellar along with my priceless copies of Galaxy, F&SF etc. from the 50's. I wonder every once in a while if it really was a legal offer and how many other mad collectors saved their copies??? richard currier marine physical lab u.c. san diego {ihnp4|decvax|akgua|dcdwest|ucbvax}!sdcsvax!mplvax!rec ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 86 05:57:47 GMT From: jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare) Subject: Re: Compass Rose/Filk As a filker and a friend of the folks in Compass Rose, I feel obligated to reply... >... Will someone on the net please tell me WHY, O GOD, WHY? they >had filkers on for the "intermission"? Because a good musical group is a very sensible thing to put on during intermission. As it happens, Compass Rose had not expected to perform at Worldcon until fairly shortly before the con; another better known group pulled out, leaving the Concom stuck. That was Compass Rose's first public appearance, and under the circumstances (a lot of time to fill, and an inevitably restless audience) I'd say they did not do badly. Of course, if the only music you like is, e.g., acid rock, then there wasn't much they (or the concom) could do, was there? >Have you ever known a filker who didn't get serious about their >stuff in the first ten minutes In the first ten minutes of what? Of a concert set? Yes, I have. Frank Hayes comes to mind; the man only KNOWS two serious songs... >and then proceed to go on and on and on and on... Well, there are some filkhogs who do, but most filkers I've encountered are pretty courteous, and if performing a set for an audience will stick close to whatever time limits they're given. Compass Rose, naturally, had to keep going till the judges came back, and then they left quite promptly.... >After the Compass Rose started sounding like old time Gospel >quartets then our whole party left In Search Of parties.) The only group I've EVER seen hold the attention of an entire Masquerade audience for the entire intermission was the Flying Karamatzov Brothers (Ho!) at a westercon a few years back. And that's quite an act for non-professional entertainers to follow.... TO NETTERS WHO WERE AT WORLDCON: I will be happy to pass on any comments (even complaints! :-) about Compass Rose or other worldcon filk to the parties involved. E-mail to me direct, please... Jordin Kare jtk@s1-c.ARPA jtk@mordor.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: Wed 10 Sep 86 16:00:01-PDT From: William "Chops" Westfield <BILLW@SU-SCORE.ARPA> Subject: religion in SF To: ucmp-cs!mangoe@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU I finally figured out why I was so bothered by Charley Wingate's message on religion in SF (and Clarke in particular). Allow me to paraphrase somewhat: I'm almost always interested in science and morality as subjects of religious writing, and I've followed the bible ever since it was available to me. Natural events and morality are frequent themes in the bible. Unfortunately, there is a streak of naivete in this book which tends to position it in a state of oversimplification. : : Generally, people reading books like this for the science or moral content ought to remember that they are being sold a bill of goods. Religion is in a fundamental way based on unreality. One's critical antennae should be fully active, and the proper reading mode should be one of a certain skepticism. It should also be remembered that science or morality is not a single thing, nor is either a scale. Read in this way, I don't think a work of fiction presents any grave danger, and I myself find the differing viewpoints stimulating (although in all fairness, there are a lot of things I would rather only read once). It's uncritical reading, without any attempt at context or contrast, which is intellectually dangerous-- not because it causes thinking, but because it creates the illusion of thought, when really all that is happening is reaction. There's no virtue in a biologist picking up the bible, reading it, and simply abandoning his "obselete" belief in evolution. Likewise, there's no virtue in prayer as a flight from medicine. There's no thought involved; it's all just emotional reaction against one's supposedly more childish state. One unthinking position is merely traded for another, with all the same flaws (and usually, the added fault of pseudosophistication). By the same token, a lot of people, particularly children at various stages of life, simply aren't prepared to approach these books with the proper sort of critical attitude. Back when I was younger and read the bible, I simply did not appreciate the casual sexism and often racism that permeates much of this book. If I had kids now at the same age, I believe I would discourage them from reading a lot of the same books, because they would be most unlikely to be able to evaluate what they were reading and reject what was racist or sexist in the writing. So in that sense there is some purpose for review boards, as long as their purpose is not intellectual purity. So how many people wait until their kids are old enough to evaluate what they are being taught before they start feeding them a religion? There is a lot to be said for "most people believe such and such, and that is how we have brought you up, but there are many other ideas in the world that are interesting and of value. Why don't you read this book "Atlas Shrugged", and then we can talk about what it is trying to say... BillW ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 86 13:24:25 PDT (Thursday) Subject: Who is... From: "Michael_Bowen.ESXC16"@Xerox.COM Han Gyodon? Where did (he) come from? All I know is that this sea creature make interesting little stationery. He's obviously Japanese. What are his origins? ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 86 03:35:38 GMT From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Tidal Forces - alignment of long bodies. The principle that Niven exploits is by no means exotic; gravity gradient stabilization has been used on many satellites. Herewith a few examples: (1) The oldest example is natural: the moon. Pre-apollonian studies of the moon by satellites revealed that the mass distribution of the moon is decidedly assymetrical; the center of mass is displaced towards the earth. This is why the seas are on the near side, and my the near side always faces us. THe same phenomenon shows up in the Gallilean moons of Jupiter, and Mercury shows the related phenomenon of spin-orbit coupling. (1) APL/JHU during the course of the Transit program (Which is an interesting exercise in physics, by the way-- determining position through dopler shifts of satellite signals) decided that they wanted directional antennas which pointed at the earth to save power consumption, and they wanted to avoid active controls. They decided on gravity gradient stabilization. Now the tricky part is getting rid of the unwanted angular momentum. For a moon, tidal heating will do the trick (and also for something close to a neutron star). The method used in the Transit satellites was to have a weight on a weak and very lossy spring; the spring was encased in biphenyl, which sublimed slowly, releasing the spring gradually. A testbed satellite TRAAC was partially successful in demonstrating the technique, and it was employed in all later satellites in the series. (3) A satellite named DODGE was built to see if the technique could be made to work at geosynchronous altitudes. It turned out that achieving real accuracy in orientation was not possible due to the magnitude of the perturbations, but DODGE is remembered for another achievement: it transmitted the first color pictures of the whole globe, some of which appeared in _National Geographic_ (Nov. 1967). C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 86 05:19:32 GMT From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Tidal Forces - alignment of long bodies. My previous article erroneously indicated that it was the mass assymetry of the moon that is responsible for the orientation. In fact it is the aspherical shape that does it; the moon is longest in the axis pointing towards the earth. C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 86 22:20:09 GMT From: celerity!ron@caip.rutgers.edu (Ron McDaniels) Subject: Re: Tidal Forces - alignment of long bodies. ijk@mtung.UUCP (Ihor Kinal) writes: >Seeing all the articles on tidal forces caused me to remember the >story by Larry Niven called, I belived, "Neutron Star." There, the >hero went around a neutron star and was subjected to very intense >tidal forces. The ship was forced to point directly in the >direction of the star. When I tried to figure out the forces >involved (versus a perpendicular configuration), cI got bogged down >in the math. I then looked at the problem differently, and by >using the gravity potential, convinced myself that the said >configuration was indeed the minimum energy one, and that the story >was indeed correct (at least on that aspect). Not particularly surprising that the story was correct. Niven and Pournelle ( also Robert Forward of Dragon's Egg fame) use one Dan Alderson as their technical consultant for such matters of gravity. Mr. Alderson (of NASA/JPL) is probably one of the world's formost authorities on orbital mechanics and is a personal friend of the aforementioned authors. Mr. Alderson has appeared in several Niven/Pournelle novels. He is (was) the diabetic JPL scientist in Lucifer's Hammer and the character "Noresdal" in the pulp epic, Exiles to Glory. I will forever be greatful to Mr. Alderson for introducing me to Bilbo, Frodo, Gandalf and the crew (many years ago). R. L. (Ron) McDaniels CELERITY COMPUTING 9692 Via Excelencia Way San Diego, California 92126 (619) 271-9940 {decvax || ucbvax || ihnp4 || philabs}!sdcsvax!celerity!ron ------------------------------ Date: 14 Sep 86 21:35:00 GMT From: mcdaniel@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU Subject: Western cons? Preface: A while back, I was bumped from a Piedmont flight and got a free ticket voucher, which expires April 1, 1987. Piedmont flies to San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Denver, along with many midwest and east-coast cities (and towns and hamlets and hovels and cow pastures and ...). Request: do you know of cons taking place in SF, LA, or Denver before April 1? I'm looking for hotel space (with the usual even cost division -- credit references on request :-) ). I'd like to sightsee around one of the cities before or after the con (one day, maybe two). motssers' replies especially welcome. Thanks! Tim McDaniel (Center for Supercomputing Research and Development at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign) Arpa: mcdaniel@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu Csnet: mcdaniel%uicsrd@uiuc.csnet Usenet: ...{cmcl2|seismo|pur-ee|ihnp4|convex}!uiucdcs!uicsrd!mcdaniel ------------------------------ Date: 17 Sep 86 22:13:03 GMT From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu (A Andrews) Subject: INCONJUNCTION LUCKY 7 INCONJUNCTION LUCKY 7: July 3, 4, 5 1987 Adam's Mark Hotel, Indianapolis, Indiana GUESTS OF HONOR: Jack Williamson--SF GoH andrew offutt---Fantasy GoH "Lan" Laskowski-Fan GoH arlan andrews---Toastperson Hoping also to get: Timothy Zahn Michael Kube-McDowell Michael Banks Mike Resnick J. N. Williamson Joe Patrouch Joe Hensley 900+ fans More details later. arlan ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 86 21:05:26 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Time travel > todd%sarah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM ( - Bill) > > once the time extent IS included, mass/energy within > the resulting enlarged context remains a conserved quantity. > > there may already be support for a looser interpretation - if not > for discontinuous displacement, then at least for continuous > retrograde displacement (videlicet time symmetries for > electrons/positrons as a single particle with two opposing > temporal vectors). But note... when such a particle changes timewise direction pastward, energy is released, and when direction is changed futureward, energy is consumed. Thus, in any timelike slice of the universe, energy is conserved, not just for space-time as a whole. So Feynman diagrams aren't support for the notion of mass-energy conservation only applying to space-time instead of space. (Not that this notion is ruled out, mind you... just that this view of antimatter isn't support for it.) > We are no more disturbed by the circular nature of its temporal > movement than we would be if it were moving in a spatially > circular motion on a turntable But this doesn't address the *major* difference between the cases brought up, in particular that one is a spiral in space-time, and the other is a closed loop. Granted, taking a coin and sending it into the past multiple times is an analogy for a point on the rim of a turntable. The point goes past a given spot in space N times, and the coin goes past a given spot in time... er... well... "N spaces", right? (In any event, at a given point in time you see N coins). But neither of these involve a closed loop. There is no space-like analogy for such a closed loop, unless there are other time-like meta-dimensions as implied in many time-traveling stories, such as in Asimov's _The_End_of_Eternity_ and others. > (it's not at all clear that such physics allows "free will" - but > then it's not at all clear that CURRENT physics does either). One notion that is used to elaborate the notion of time-travel in a few cases is "observer created reality". That is, the future (and perhaps even the past) is not only unknown, but *doesn't* *exist* until it is "traveled to" or observed. Then it is fixed. This is in analogy to the way a particle in QM doesn't *have* (say) a position until the position is measured. The act of *observing* the future (or traveling there) *creates* it, and once created, it is immutable. The more folks travel around in time, then, the less "free will" for everybody. Not that this notion makes much more sense than many others regarding time travel... but interesting nevertheless, I suppose. And these two points are the major factors in my perception of time travel stories in sf. Most of these don't make much sense, often very little indeed. But there is something primally interesting about the notion of time travel, so on this account we are continually inundated with ill-thought-out scenarios. Sigh. Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Received: from maus.rutgers.edu by RED.RUTGERS.EDU with TCP; 24 Sep 86 23:50:02 EDT Received: from RED.RUTGERS.EDU by maus.rutgers.edu; Wed, 24 Sep 86 23:47:37 EDT Message-Id: <8609250347.AA02930@maus.rutgers.edu> Date: 24 Sep 86 0906-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #311 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 24 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 311 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Sep 86 20:26:24 GMT From: ahh@h.cc.purdue.edu (Brentrock of Hyperborea) Subject: Re: I like STARSHIP TROOPERS After reading the postings on this subject (and printing them--a *large* file), I begin to wonder whether this culture or humanity is really worth preserving. Sure, there are lots of good things that Man has done, and I feel that it can be a really neat thing to be a human on Terra. Then somebody comes along who hasn't checked all the sources and (especially bad) thought things through completely (thinking must be too much *work* for some people), and starts up those thoughts of "what's the use" inside my head. Oh, well. I'm not flaming anyone specifically, just a certain class of person. I've read just about everything that RAH has written, and I don't think that he supports Nuclear War. He does support some of the good things that human beings have come up with: honesty, loyalty, attention to duty, and trying to be the best that one can. Is this bad? Brent Woods USENET: {seismo, decvax, ucbvax, ihnp4}!pur-ee!h.cc!ahh ARPANET: woodsb@el.ecn.purdue.edu BITNET: PODUM@PURCCVM PHONE: (317) 495-2011 USNAIL: Brent Woods Box 1004 Cary West Lafayette, IN 47906 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Sep 86 14:04 CDT From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: Heinlein and Nuclear war In the discussion about Farnham's Freehold, the sense I get from the dialogue given in the previous message is that the character Hugh is not so much for nuclear war, but for the changes that the war brought, i.e. get rid of the sheep, put a little struggle into the game, in order to bring the elements of evolution as it involves humans. In other books of Heinlein's, this same theme (a frontier for human evolution) has been presented with space exploration as the dangerous factor (many books, but Time Enough for Love for example). In some ways, I feel somewhat similar, though nuclear war is out. At present, the great challenge in life is making it through the week so that you can go home and drink beer all weekend. (Well, forr many Americans anyway). Another factor in the Farnham's Freehold story is that it was written back in the sixties (or was it fifties) when nuclear was still thought to be survivable. (Though Reagan and his friends still seem to think it is, with their talk of winnable nuclear war, and plans for WW IV, which is supposed to take place immediately after WW III.) Well anyway. I don't want to necessarily defend Heinlein per se or the character of Hugh, but to present at least another interpretation. Brett ------------------------------ Date: 14 Sep 86 06:52:38 GMT From: chapman@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) writes: >But then another effect should have been well-known to Heinlein >which he never bothered to deal with in his paean to "survivalism". >Namely the certainty than any all-out nuclear war would lead to >massive firestorms, leaving those in shelters like "Farnham's >Freehold" to be either cooked alive like those in Dresden, or else >suffocated by the lack of oxygen consumed by such torrential >flames. It has been a long time since I read "Farnham's Freehold" >but I also don't recall much discussion of the pernicious effects >of radioactivity- in the region around Chernobyl, a minscule >incident compared to the effects of an all-out nuclear war, they >have to strip off the top inches of thousands of acres of topsoil >because it is excessively radioactive. If you strip off the top >inches of fertile topsoil to avoid radioactivity, the soil left >will be practically useless for growing crops. Nor do I recall >Heinlein talking much at all about radiation sickness, leukemia, >cancer, etc. I believe that Heinlein sidestepped this whole issue in one of the basic premises of the story. If I remember correctly, Farnham & Co. survived _because_ they were basicly at ground zero for a blast, which conveniently knocked them several hundred (thousand?) years into the future. Without this convenient little "trick", there would have been no story. Brent Chapman chapman@cory.berkeley.edu ucbvax!cory!chapman ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 86 09:01:03 GMT From: watdcsu!dmcanzi@caip.rutgers.edu (David Canzi) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) writes: >I read Farnham's Freehold and it certainly seemed to me to be more >of a paean to "survivalism" than to actions to stop a nuclear war >in the first place. The protoganist is praiseworthy for stocking >up with everything from food to encyclopedias to prepare for the >aftermath of World War Last. His major concern is protecting his >survivalist fiefdom from looting by others who are starving and so >forth. It's things like this that make me suspect that maybe Ayn Rand was right about altruism. This is what you seem to believe, based on the above: Any effort spent trying to save yourself by preparing to survive a nuclear war is immoral, because it could have been spent trying to save everybody by trying to prevent a nuclear war. After the war, many people will be wandering around starving. You are supposed to share your food with them, thus hastening the day when you will run out of food. Better that *everybody* should starve *equally*, rather than having some survive and others starve, eh? Apparently, Miss Rand's description of altruism is *not*, after all, a straw man. >But that's OK, because we know that it should be "every *MAN* for >himself" after any disaster, right? It's completely unimportant what *should* be; what *is* is all that matters. If it will be every man for himself, one would be foolish not to prepare for it. You emphasized the word "man" in "every *MAN* for himself". I take this as evidence that you can't prove that Heinlein is a sexist, and therefore you must resort to sleazy insinuations. >"Farnham's Freehold" is hardly a realistic view of the effects of >nuclear war whatsoever. [omitted] Heinlein could be excused for >not mentioning these since both were just discovered in the past >decade. So, why did *you* bother mentioning them? [Various other possible effects of nuclear war omitted for brevity] >The whole impression I recall from "Farnham's Freehold" was that >nuclear war involved big terrific explosions but if you prepared >your own survivalist holdout for yourself and you alone, that you >could make it. I take it you object to, probably, both of the following: (1) The idea that one can survive. (2) The idea one should act to save oneself when others are going to die. I'm undecided as to the possibility of survival, but if enough irrational people claim that I can't survive, it will be very difficult for me to avoid taking it as evidence that I can. As I recall, Farnham wasn't the only person in the shelter, but still, he could only shelter a small number of people. If I understand your morals correctly, you believe that it is better for everybody to be equally dead than for some people with foresight to live. More altruism. >Of course a required part of your survivalist gear is at least one >gun, if not several, so you can shoot the few surviving humans left >and assure your own survival. I.e. maintain the same idiotic >mentality which has placed us in the current position of facing the >imminent extinction of the human race at any time! It's a common assumption, in post-holocaust stories, that survivors will *need* a gun to defend themselves from those sufficiently hungry to kill people and eat them. You believe, perhaps, that it is morally a better thing to let the needy eat you? Altruism again. David Canzi ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 86 15:49:33 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb > tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) >> throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) >> The quote explores the hypothesis that a nuclear war would cull >>the "unfit", and that hardy, freedom loving folk might selectively >>survive. (Even so, it is worth noting that again he did *not* say >>that the net effect would be beneficial.) Good greif, Tim. Take it easy. You're getting spittle all over your terminal. And you're wrong on this point, to boot. First, very trivially, almost every time Hugh Farnham proposes a "benefit" of nuclear war, he equivocates, saying "could be", "might be", and so on. And every time Tim requotes (other than the reproduction of the quote from the book), Tim removes these equivocations. So, in a trivial sense, I am not lying, and Hugh didn't say what Tim keeps saying he said. More fundamentally, the analysis that Hugh uses to show his hypothesized "benefit" makes it clear that he is comparing nuclear war to some *other* disaster that would kill hundreds of millions of people. Thus, he is talking about a *relative* benefit of a disaster that kills millions of "unfit" people relative to killing millions of people completely at random. Further, my subsequent argument didn't depend on my parenthetical remark about what Hugh Farnham was saying. That argument is just as valid if we assume that Tim is right about Hugh's statements, which was why I made it a parenthetical remark in the first place, and *not* part of my argument. Let's see what Tim left out of his "rebuttal". > It is highly questionable whether any quote eight paragraphs long > can be reasonably said to be "out of context". Hardly. It is *trivial* to show that this quote was butchered by removal from its context, and that Hugh Farnham is *not* Heinlein's mouthpiece character in this quote. First, the context is a novel that details in no uncertain terms the evil results of a nuclear war. The few survivors, we find out, are enslaved and bred for docile servility, sex, and meat for hundreds of years. The quote stating that the US might reap some benefit comes before this result is revealed, and is thus out of its proper context. Second, since the events in the book are controlled directly by Heinlein, when what some character says conflicts with those events, that character cannot be echoing Heinlein's thoughts. The "benefits" Hugh Farnham hypothesizes (mostly increased intelligence and freedom for the survivors) are *directly* and *repeatedly* contradicted by the subsequent events. Hugh Farnham *clearly* erected a straw man, which Heinlein then demolishes in the remainder of the novel. Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 86 14:53:20 GMT From: savax!royer@caip.rutgers.edu (royer) Subject: Re: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb Let's try and separate our *CURRENT* understanding of the effects of nuclear war from those accepted at the time this book was written. When Heinlein wrote "Farnham's Freehold", the prevailing wisdom really was that all we had to do was hole up and wait it out and we'd be OK. The book actually advances the idea that that wasn't so, that there were things about civilization that really were necessary to support life as we knew it. "Farnham's Freehold" is a very depressing book, especially when compared with other Heinlein work. If he wrote it now and included things like nuclear winter, etc, I'm not sure what would come out. > I would say that as I recall Heinlein's story in "Farnham's > Freehold" that it more closely resembles Reagan's Undersecretary > of Defense, T.K. Jones statement that "we can survive nuclear war > with enough shovels. Just dig a hole a few feet thick and jump in > it." than any statement by pacifists or even people like > Eisenhower or Khruschev ('the living will envy the dead') If you feel that way, it would be better to sum it up saying that T. K. Jones holds an attitude which is thirty or so years out of date (about as old as "Farnham's Freehold") and not to extrapolate that feeling to Mr. Heinlein. Tom Royer Sanders Associates MER24-1283, CS2034 (603)-885-9171 Nashua, NH 03061-2034 ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 86 23:32:20 GMT From: ptsfd!djo@caip.rutgers.edu (Dan'l Oakes) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb Tim Maroney writes: >Heinlein was clear; he did not dryly note a few positive effects; >he stated outright that the nuclear war was "good for the country". >Go back and check the quote if you don't believe me (and I'll grant >you, it's hard to believe). He then went on to say that it had >"turned the tide" toward the triumph of freedom, and that the net >effect would be to "improve the breed". Not hesitantly, not dryly, >not in passing - Heinlein states outright and enthusiastically that >nuclear war would be a wonderful thing! > >I know Heinlein is probably one of your heroes, Mr. Berch, but you >simply must face facts. The book says what I quoted it as saying, >not what you would like it to have said. Nor does it say what you would like it to have said. The book does not say that the war is a good thing; it says (quoting from memory) that the war may have been good for the country. May have is a subjunctive that casts a possible doubt on all that follows; and good for the country is not an absolute "good" (unless you suggest that the author of, among other things THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS, THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST ("we put no faith in princes"), and FRIDAY regards the good of any one political unit as an absolute good). Semantic analysis can go only so far, of course, and next I will suggest that while Farnham meant all he said, _Heinlein_ is speaking ironically. And "Pie in the Sky" is even more unambiguous: >"There are so many, many things in this so-termed civilization of >ours which would be mightily improved by a once over lightly of the >Hiroshima treatment." You can twist and turn and try to divert the >issue into long lists of irrelevant Heinlein statements on other >matters (which you did, and which I have omitted), but these are >the things he said, and you can't change that by wishing it away. And that passage is precisely where I claim Heinlein is being ironic. It is the classic form of irony -- indeed, to speak in such a blithe and childish manner, of such a serious subject, is one of the classic markers of irony. If the irony is not obvious, blame your lack of classical education, not Heinlein. Not that I suggest that Heinlein is entirely sarcastic; no, this is the much more difficult trope of irony; Heinlein is indeed saying that there are a great many things wrong with modern civilization. But the main problem is that you seem not to have read the essay. Heinlein goes on to name several of the things that the "Hiroshima treatment" would free us from -- then goes on to name a greater number of awfulnesses that would result from it. If you had read the damn essay, you would know that it was intended to wake people up, to tell them that they'd damn well better do something to PREVENT an atomic war. But, no. You, who are full of accusations of hero-worship, took the quotation directly out of context as it was presented to you, and believed those who told you how it was intended. Think for yourself, buddy. That's what Heinlein's been trying to tell us all for years and years -- and that's what politicians, on BOTH sides, left and right, don't want us to do. Come on... Please... djo@ptsfd ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Sep 86 1114-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #312 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 25 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 312 Today's Topics: Television - Anderson (4 msgs) & Battlestar Galactica & Macross & Powers of Matthew Star & The Prisoner & Science Fiction Theater & Star Maidens & Star Trek (2 msgs) & Terrahawks (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Sep 86 20:10:39 GMT From: aplvax!mae@caip.rutgers.edu (Mary Anne Espenshade) Subject: Answers to UFO and Thunderbirds questions Ray's (CARON@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU) question from sf-lovers: > I remember a show call _U.F.O._ when I was much younger, does > anyone remember the show, the cast members? I think the bad guys > organization was something like "SHADO"? Any help will be > appreciated. You've got that backwards - the GOOD guys organization was SHADO - Supreme Headquarters, Alien Defense Organization (classic case of the words being invented to fit the acronym). UFO was made for British TV in 1969 by Gerry Anderson, his first live action show after ~10 years of puppets. It only lasted one season. When Anderson went to his financial backer, Lew Grade, to propose a sequel, Grade wanted something "bigger" to sell to the US, a show that wasn't set on Earth, so Anderson made Space:1999 instead. Main characters were the SHADO operatives, the aliens were almost never seen. In addition to the underground headquarters under the Harlington-Straker film studio, SHADO had a moon base with armed interceptors, SkyDiver submarines, aircraft and mobile units, and SID, the Space Intruder Detector, an early warning satellite. All this without the public knowing they existed! One episode included flash- backs to the establishment of SHADO by the U.N. Cast: Commander Ed Straker - Ed Bishop Col. Alec Freeman - George Sewell Col. Paul Foster - Michael Billington Col. Virginia Lake - Wanda Ventham Capt. Peter Karlin (SkyDiver) - Peter Gordino Lt. Gay Ellis (Moonbase) - Gabrielle Drake Joan Harrington (Moonbase) - Antonia Ellis Nina Barry (Moonbase) - Dolores Mantez Mark Bradley (interceptor pilot) - Harry Baird Gen. Henderson - Grant Taylor Dr. Jackson - Vladek Sheybal From jrw@hropus.UUCP (Jim Webb) Questions on Anderson's "Supermarionation" shows: > about this family how lived on this island and had all these > rockets and aircraft that were numbered. One of them was this > sort of flying box car that could carry differing payloads in its > belly. It stood over a moving conveyer belt that moved the > various pods under- neath. Another rocket shot out from under > their swimming pool, that slid aside to allow it to shot past. This one is Thunderbirds. There were also two Thunderbirds feature films, Thunderbirds Are Go! and Thunderbird 6. These show up on tv occasionally. > This show also had a "CloudBase" or something with female rocket > fighter pilots, or was that another show? Different show - Captain Scarlet. Many of Anderson's shows have been syndicated recently (within the last 5 years) as a movie package. Episodes of selected shows are cut together to make 1.5 - 2 hour "movies". There is one for Thunderbirds (Thunderbirds to the Rescue), one for Stingray (Incredible Voyage of Stingray), one for UFO (Invasion: UFO), and several from Space:1999. The UFO movie is a poorly combined mix of the first episode, "Identified", and parts of two later episodes, "Reflections in the Water" and "Computer Affair" Mary Anne Espenshade {allegra, seismo}!umcp-cs!aplcen!aplvax!mae mae@aplvax.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 86 00:36:26 edt From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence Raphael Brothers) Subject: UFO Yeah! UFO was a pretty neat show. Ignoring the fact that they showed the same scenes of exploding aliens again and again and again.... There were interspersed among the usual bang-bang episodes some really well written ones with some truly weird and surreal effects. I haven't seen an episode for about 10 years or so, but I remember a "werewolf" episode and a bizarre time-travel episode as unusually noteworthy. And Ed Straker was a rather cool guy. A kind of William Buckley version of Buckaroo Banzai. I liked the fact that he had a past, with the tragedy over his kid, etc, rather than just being some boring old hero. I liked those cars, too. Like DeLoreans, kinda. The submarine was dumb, and so were the space interceptors, but hey, it was quality effects for the time; I can't think of any better models used until, say, Star Wars, which was on a budget probably several orders of magnitude greater. Does anyone know where videotapes of the show can be had? Laurence ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 86 15:55:54 BST (Sorted by Postman Pat) From: Silas_Snake <CCU1693%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk> Subject: Old SF TV. UFO was quite popular over here in Britain, to the extent of toys being made of the ships which dealt with the UFOs (These were called Interceptors, by the way.) The special effects were quite good. I think the series was made by the same people who made Space:1999 (which I long for re-runs of.) The guy in charge of the UFO operation was played by Ed Bishop. I think the organisation he worked for was called SHADOW, but I can't remember what this stands for. In the "Star Trek Compendium" Allan Asherman mentions another SF series from the early 1950's called Rocky Jones:Space Ranger. Anybody out there remember this show? Silas P.S. Trivia: Did you know that Martin Landau (Commander Koenig from Space:1999 was originally considered for the role of Mr. Spock? Silas_Snake%UK.AC.Bradford.Central.CYBER1@ucl-cs.arpa OR Silas_Snake%UK.AC.Brad.CYBER1%UKACRL@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 86 07:54:33 GMT From: crash!victoro@caip.rutgers.edu (Victor O'Rear) Subject: Re: Old SF-TV (Thunderbirds) >Trivia Questions - > o Who was Lady Penelope? She was the EXTREMLY wealthy relative of Captain Tracy (His Sister?) and lived on her estate in England. > o What make was her car ? It was a Rolls-Royce, but I do not remember the year. > o What colour was it ? My good man, it was pink! > o What else was unusual about it ? Besides having every gadget seen in a James Bond film, it had NO bar! (It was a family show...) victoro ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 86 20:56:59 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!eric@caip.rutgers.edu (Eric Cotton) Subject: Re: Lost in Space andrew@hammer.UUCP (Andrew Klossner) writes: >>"In Battlestar Galactica, the super-cylon set to advise Baltar had >>a very familiar voice - that of the man you love to hate, Jonathan >>Harris, aka Dr. Smith." > >It was Patrick Macnee (sp?), he of the bowler and brollee on "The >Avengers," who later played an antichrist figure on B. G. True, Patrick Macnee (sp?) did play the super-cylon (the only (?) organic Cylon). He also provided the narration during the opening credits. However, after Baltar came to power, he had a Cylon advisor who was a robot (but different from the others) played by - you guessed it - Jonathan Harris. Eric Cotton UUCP: {ihnp4|allegra|seismo|pyramid!amiga}!cbmvax!eric ARPA: cbmvax!eric@seismo US mail: Commodore Technology / 1200 Wilson Drive West Chester, PA 19380 phone: (215) 431-9180 ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 86 21:54:48 GMT From: helm!eric@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: 4th Epic RobotTech(Macross) Does any one know if the Fourth Epic is being ported to the US? I had heard out at Origins that One of the Cable oriented networks (Tbs or Usa) had picked up exclusive rights. But as of yet I haven't Heard Hide nor Hair of it. Also if you do know, would you also know if the episodes have been mutilated by our friends at harmony gold or will they be left basicaly intact? Please respond Via E-Mail, Also if you have any of the original (un-harmonized) episodes on tape (in Japanese of course) or possibly even Macross movie (the last one) And you are interested in trading, let me know. Eric Hyman @ HELM (516)-694-5320 philabs!sbcs!helm!eric ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 86 23:58:06 GMT From: mtgzz!eme@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Mathew Star or Star Prince was Re: SF-TV programs >I think the name of the show was Star Prince. It lasted for about >1/2 a season. I don't remember who played the lead. But I think I >remember seeing Amy Steel play his girlfriend, and Lou Gossett >playing his mentor. It had a few god moments, but mostly it wasn't >anything special. Sorry I can't remember the name but I do believe that it was on longer than 1/2 a season. The first season was about the prince and mentor getting themselves established on Earth. The prince's father was in the process of being overthrown on a world which was much more advanced than Earth. For safety, the prince was sent with his mentor (an old family retainer) to Earth to hide. I vaguely remember that a big deal was made about the sacrifices made by other nobles to provide the prince with an escape, and hadn't he better try harder to appear like a normal earthling so he didn't blow thier cover. I think only the royal family was suppose to have the powers he exhibited. The second season was about a government agent finding out about them and threatening to blow their cover if they didn't do occasional jobs for them, which got the prince and mentor into all kinds of interesting situations involving exposing spies and kidnappers. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 86 01:51:35 GMT From: c55-ar@buddy.Berkeley.EDU (Roderick Manalac) Subject: Re: Old SF-TV Shows Does the Prisoner, the British TV mini-series which starred Patrick McGooan count as SF? Does anybody remember the series? I know it's shown every once in a while on PBS. (KTEH Channel 54 in San Jose is currently running the series in what they feel is the correct order). Anybody have any theories about who ran The Village (some think it's the Illuminati)? Thanx. ------------------------------ Date: 15-Sep-1986 1957 From: cantor%derep.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Dave C., 226-7726, LKG1-3/A06) Subject: Re Science Fiction Theater (11:284) Kenn Goutal (sii!kgg@caip.rutgers.edu) asks re Science Fiction Theater: >Now for the triva [sic] question (to which I do not know the >answer): What was the name of the host, who ended each show with >"Our story, of course, is fiction; but the scientific principles >are real." (or something close to that), and: "Until then, this is >your host, _______, saying ``See you next week''". Truman Bradley was the host (but I may the spelling of his name wrong). Oh wow, I can still hear the theme song way in the back of my head. Thanks for the reminder. Dave Cantor ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 19 Sep 1986 00:25:55-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: TV SF (STAR MAIDENS) From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA> > When I was in Korea in 1978 (courtesy of the U.S. Army) there was > one english-speaking station (AFKN). AFKN ran a British-made SF > television series that was sooooo bad I'm not surprised that it > hasn't been seen here. This series was called _STAR_MAIDENS_.... I can confirm that it exists, though I haven't seen any of its episodes. There was at least one novelization from the series that I have in a British paperback. I haven't had the fortitude to read it, though. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 86 06:45:40 GMT From: osi3b2!james@caip.rutgers.edu (James R. Van Artsdalen) Subject: Re: Vulcan greeting in strange places hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes: > By the way, the nerve pinch was also one of Nimoy's ideas. A > script called for Spock to deck someone with a right cross, but > Nimoy felt that the peaceful Vulcans, with their superrior logic, > strength and concentration, would have found a less violent and > energy-consumptive way to subdue people. They then developed the > nerve pinch. Spock has, in following episodes, occasionally used > the old fashoned way when rushed. Before the action continues, > Kirk usually pauses a moment to rib Spock about it with a quick > comment like "Isn't that a bit barbaric?". Actually, I would guess a less noble reason for Nimoy to come up with the nerve pinch. I've heard that Nimoy just wasn't very athletic, at least compared to Shatner, and that the nerve pinch was a way around having Nimoy do fight scenes. Lots of ideas in Star Trek were originally conveniences of this sort. James R. Van Artsdalen ...!ut-ngp!utastro!osi3b2!james ------------------------------ Date: Sun 21 Sep 86 18:11:01-PDT From: Lynn Gold <Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU> Subject: "Live Long and Prosper" sign origin To be exact, the sign represents the letter "shin" in the Hebrew alphabet. Shin is the first letter in the word "Shalom" (Peace), and the shin sign is used during High Holy Day (Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur) services. Lynn ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 86 10:53:29 PDT (Thursday) Subject: Terrahawks From: Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM Bob Neumann writes: >I understand that Gerry divorced his wife ( who was his partner in >most of his projects, and he is now using Marionnettes again). He >is supposed to have produced a show called "Terrahawks" and is now >working on a show called "Secret Police". I thought all the >Anderson stuff was great when I was a kid. Are these new shows a >reality? I don't know about Secret Police, but Terrahawks is certainly a reality. It has had a long run on British TV (ITV), unfortunately shown at some unGodly hour of a Saturday morning (10am, fer cryin out loud!). I'd rate it as being one of Andersons best series', with the exception of Thunderbirds (what could possibly be better than Thunderbirds? I still have all my Thunderbird models, dozens of them, carefully packed away in a box in the attic. Every now and then I dig out Thunderbird 2 and wallow in nostalgia, running around making rocket noises and saying things like "F.A.B" and "Thunderbirds are go!". Ostensibly this is done to amuse my son, but being only 8 months old he doesn't really appreciate it). Where was I? Oh yes, Terrahawks. The hardware in the show is quite good, with impressive space stations, rough terrain vehicles, space ships with deep sea capability etc. The basic story line is standard - Ubiquitous Hero Organisation struggling to keep planet Earth free from Evil Alien Invaders, but it is executed with a touch of class (humour, tongue in cheek Boys Own adventure stuff) that was sometimes missing from his earlier shows. Catch it if you can. Hugh ARPA: Hippo.SBDERX@Xerox.COM ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 86 00:15:50 GMT From: mtgzz!eme@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Old Sci-fi TV (Anderson) I saw "Terrahawks" on TV sometime last year while I was out sick. I was in the mid-afternoon with a bunch of cartoons. It seemed like an OK show. I remember the bad guys (or should I say gals) reminded me of the witch I had once seen in a puppet version of "Hansel and Gretel". The characters (like in most children's action shows) were very black and white. The bad guys had no redeeming features and the good guys were so nice and good etc. that they refused to kill the bad guys despite several opportunities to do so. Beth ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Sep 86 0912-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #313 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 29 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 313 Today's Topics: Books - Bova & Delany & Norton (2 msgs) & Reed & Tepper (3 msgs) & Tolkein & Wells (2 msgs) & Wheeler & Author Lists (2 msgs) & Leonardo da Vinci & Title Query ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Sep 86 18:35:51 EDT From: Michael Laufer <mlaufer@cct.bbn.com> Subject: Book Search To: ringwld!jmturn@cca.cca.com James Turner (ARPA:ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA) writes: >A friend of mine has been searching for the following book for >years, and now turns to the assembled might of the SFL collective >intelligence to help him. > >The story is a space opera, concerning a young man who gathers a >force to topple ancient (but not by default evil) rulers of the >galaxy and their minions. It is pre-1965, and the author's name or >psuedonym is probably early in the alphabet. He read it first in >hardcover. I too have been looking for this book. It is by Ben Bova. I first read it in hardback from a school library. A minor character in the book appears as a younger man in another of Ben Bova's books, I believe it is called _As_On_A_Darkening_Plain_, as the main character. I apologize that I cannot at the moment remember the name of this book. The story line has the earth people fighting the GUARDIANS for the freedom to expand the boundries of the TERRAN EMPIRE. They are also looking for the OTHERS who previously destroyed the earth. I loved it. I wonder if the story will hold up if I reread it now? Michael Laufer mlaufer@bbn.com ------------------------------ Date: 22 Sep 86 09:16:13 GMT From: jml@cs.strath.ac.uk (Joseph McLean) Subject: Re: Samuel Delany everett@hp-pcd.UUCP (everett) writes: >Quite early on I read several stories by Delaney, and enjoyed them >IMMENSELY! (Try "The Jewels Of Aptor" for GREAT fantasy, and "The >Fall of the Towers" I remember as being VERY good, although I read >it so long ago, that I can't remember much of the story.) However, >I got de-railed by Delaney when I tried tackling a new (at the >time) book of his (I can't remember the title) where the character >spends the entire novel wandering around this immense city >(post-holocaust, I believe) without really DOING much. GREAT >language usuage and discriptions, etc, but I just got tired of no >plot developments. I realize it's unfair to give up on an author >after one dis-liked book, but I haven't time to read half of the >books I buy, now, so I haven't read much by him for the last ten >years or so. The novel was "Dhalgren".Personally I think Delany is one of the most boring sf-writers out.I read 100 pages into Titan and then gave up (not from lack of willpower or determination,I just decided I couldn't be bothered going any further).However I certainly won't dissuade anyone else from reading his books.Everyone has their own point of view,and mine is no better or worse than the rest. Mind you,I take exception to those who are so narrow-minded as to refute all adverse arguments. jml ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 86 14:43:01 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Norton "Witch World" Do Andre Norton's "Witch World" books fit into any sort of orderly chronology? Are there any that are more or less worth reading than others in the series? ------------------------------ Date: 23 Sep 86 21:17:57 GMT From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: Norton "Witch World" From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) > Do Andre Norton's "Witch World" books fit into any sort of >orderly chronology? Are there any that are more or less worth >reading than others in the series? Well, I'm sure others more knowledgeable will correct me, but as I remember: The first five or so follow a chronological order, then the continuity gets spotty. Let's see... Horn Crown (Prequel. Quite good.) Directly related stories: Witch World (The original. It'd make a great movie...) Web of the Witch World (Part two of story started in Witch World) Three Against the Witch World (Different storyline, same family as WW and WotWW, but the beginning takes place concurrently with the first two books.) Warlock of the Witch World (Part two of story started in TAtWW.) Sorceress of the Witch World (Part three. Reconnects with plot from WotWW.) Spell of the Witch World (Chronologoy not clear. Probably concurrent with first book.) Sign of the Unicorn (Nothing to do with Unicorns. Misleading cover. Passable story, though. Takes place sometime after WotWW to new characters.) Trey of Swords (Not up to the quality of the others. Takes place after SotWW.) Zarasthor's Bane (Probably the most disappointing of the lot. chronologoy not clear. Probably after ToS.) 'Ware Hawk (Sometime after WotWW. Not great, but better than ZB.) The Toads of Grimmerdale (Short story. Chronologoy unclear.) Oh, This is where the stories take place: Horn Crown First colonization of the Old Race into Etscarp. Witch World Simon Tregarth's entry into Etscarp. Web of the Witch World Etscarp and surrounding countries. Three Against the Witch World Etscarp and Escore. (Children of Tregarth) Warlock of the Witch World Escore. Sorceress of the Witch World Escore and other places. Spell of the Witch World High Halleck (?) (Short stories.) Sign of the Unicorn High Halleck. Trey of Swords Escore. Zarasthor's Bane Escore. 'Ware Hawk Etscarp and the land to the south that I don't remember the name of. The Toads of Grimmerdale Etscarp. Notes: There is a hint that there will be another book that details the origin of That Which Runs the Ridges. I can't wait, even though I think she should have left it a mystery. The three books about Tregarth's children are interesting because each is told from a different child's view, although they follow chronologically. I read Horn Crown whilst camping alone in the California Redwoods. I highly recommend the experience. Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 86 14:16:58 EDT From: Randall_Shane%RPI-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Short stories with Da Vinci & Kit Reed James Turner wanted a short story with Leonardo Da Vinci in it -- I think that 'Mister Da V' by Kit Reed fills the bill. Kit Reed has also written some very good not-quite-science-fiction, such as the short stories "Riders of the Purple Twilight", about a home for the wives of the airmen who never returned from the war...any war; also see 'On Behalf of the Product'. All these stories are in the (extremely badly named at the publisher's insistence) "Other Stories and the Attack of The Giant Baby". (A good story in itself, and in spite of the title -- but not as a title of a book!!!) Randall Shane randall_shane%rpi-mts@mit-multics.arpa userebqy@rpitsmts.bitnet userebqy%rpitsmts.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 86 14:29:58 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Dervish Daughter haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes: > Can anyone tell me what's doing with Sheri Tepper's new book, > "Dervish Daughter"? I've read two reviews of the book that had to > have been written at least half a year ago, but I've yet to see > the book itself on the shelves. I purchased it in paperback at Dalden's or Walton's or whatever quite a while ago. In fact, just 3 or so weeks ago, I purchased _Jinnian_Star-Eye_ also. _Jinnian_Footseer_, _Dervish_Daughter_, and _Jinnian_Star-Eye_ form a trilogy, detailing the Wize-ard's and Dervish's attempt to rescue Lom from destruction. This is pretty important to them, since Lom is the planet they are living on. I highly recommend all nine of the books set in the "True Game" universe. Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 22 Sep 86 11:38:34 PDT (Monday) From: Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Dervish Daughter To: haste@andrew.cmu.edu Sheri Tepper's final (?) book to the True Games series is out. Just saw it last week, read it in one sitting. Wraps up a lot of loose ends. Comes across as trying to teach a bit. Bao is the feeling, empathy, people can have for each other and the rest of the world. "Dervish Daughter" is fun, worthwhile, but not quite as good as some of the others. Henry III ------------------------------ Date: 23 Sep 86 22:57:55 EDT From: Dave <Steiner@RED.RUTGERS.EDU> Subject: Re: Dervish Daughter Cc: haste@ANDREW.CMU.EDU Well, this book has been out for quite some time. I would get a bookstore to order it for you if they don't have it in stock. In fact the third book in that trilogy just came out called _Jinian Star Eye_(or some such). ds uucp: ...{harvard,seismo,ut-sally,sri-iu,ihnp4!packard} !topaz!steiner arpa: Steiner@RUTGERS.ARPA or Steiner@RED.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 86 18:07:13 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald > My question is: How could Gandalf expect Frodo to cast the >Ring into the Cracks of Doom under Orodruin in the Land of Mordor, >if he couldn't even do it in his own living room? That is a good question. However, the Frodo who sat in that hole in the ground with Gandalf is NOT the same one who accepted the burden in Imladris. Since leaving home he had been chased by Nazgul, stabbed with a wraith-knife, and he knew more of the Ring. I would think that, given these experiences and the compulsion of fulfilling his Quest, he would indeed have been able, if he had not had to carry the burden for so long. st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 86 01:30:56 GMT From: ihlpa!lew@caip.rutgers.edu (Lew Mammel, Jr.) Subject: Are we not men? Last weekend I watched the 30's movie, THE ISLAND OF LOST SOULS, with Charles Laughton and Bela Lugosi. Of course, it's really THE ISLAND OF DOCTOR MOREAU. I was surprised and delighted to hear the refrain "Are we not men?" during the recitation of the Law by the beast-men. The manner of its recitation made it obvious that this was the source for the DEVO anthem, Jocko Homo. Being a DEVO fan, my interest in the story was piqued so I obtained an anthology of H.G. Wells novels from the library and read it. I found that on this and many other salient details the movie was faithful to the book, although the book contained a lot more. The movie added in some love interest in the form of a fiancee for the hero and a beast-woman (nearly perfectly human) whom Moreau experimentally tries to match with the hero. This reminded me of BLADERUNNER quite a bit. I recently saw THE FLY, incidentally, and it's interesting to compare this treatment of the theme of quasihuman beings with others such as THE ISLAND OF DOCTOR MOREAU and BLADERUNNER. Anyway, I was quite impressed with the book. With the death of Dr. Moreau, where the movie ends, the book moves on to achieve its highest and most disturbing interest. The protagonist is forced to deal with the remaining beast-men before he can escape from the island, and he buys time with the ploy of insisting that Moreau is still alive "up there" and is still capable of punishing them. He remarks to the reader, "An animal can be ferocious and cunning enough, but it takes a real man to tell a lie." This makes for a brutally effective parody of the Christian religion. At the end of the story, having safely returned to civilization, the storyteller reflects on how his experience has affected his outlook. He has come to feel that humans are really no different than Moreau's beast-men, capable of reverting to bestiality at any time. This essay fits well with DEVO's devolution theme, but the book bears more serious reflection than DEVO's antics, as delightful as they are. When I was in high school we read various existentialist literature by Sartre, Camus, Kafka, et al. The existential theme is prominent in THE ISLAND OF DOCTOR MOREAU as well, and it easily ranks in quality with many of the standard stories which are regarded as more scholarly. Lew Mammel, Jr. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 86 04:04:42 GMT From: hoptoad!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: Are we not men? lew@ihlpa.UUCP (Lew Mammel, Jr.) writes: >Last weekend I watched the 30's movie, THE ISLAND OF LOST SOULS, >with Charles Laughton and Bela Lugosi. Of course, it's really THE >ISLAND OF DOCTOR MOREAU. I was surprised and delighted to hear the >refrain "Are we not men?" during the recitation of the Law by the >beast-men. The manner of its recitation made it obvious that this >was the source for the DEVO anthem, Jocko Homo. Jeez, what are they teaching in English classes these days? Check out "The Merchant of Venice", by one William Shakespeare. I think you'll find a usage of "Are we not men?" that considerably predates that of the honorable Mssrs. Laughton and Lugosi. Mike Farren hoptoad!farren ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 86 18:47:55 GMT From: utastro!wheel@caip.rutgers.edu (Craig Wheeler) Subject: coming soon I just received my first copy of my novel THE KRONE EXPERIMENT hot from the printer, shiny dust jacket, hard cover and all. Darned if it doesn't look like a real book! :> Copies are going out to reviewers now, and efforts are underway to convince bookstores to stock it. The schedule still calls for it to be on the bookstore shelves in mid to late October. Craig Wheeler ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 86 02:28:00 GMT From: watnot!cjhoward@caip.rutgers.edu (Caleb J. Howard) Subject: author lists This is my first posting on this net, so if I'm covering old ground, sorry. My question is this: Is there some place to get ahold of complete lists of specific authors' material? In particular I', looking for: Robert A. Heinlen Ray Bradbury Piers Anthony Alan Dean Foster Walter M. Miller I'm interested in COMPLETE lists, (I.E. old analog-type publishings). If complete lists are unavailable, anything would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot in advance to anyone who can assist me in my quest for a complete library. Oh, another thing, I need a source of old ANALOG and similar regular publications from the late sixties/early seventies in the Toronto (Canada) region. Again, Thanks Caleb J. Howard cjhoward!watnot!waterloo ------------------------------ Date: 22 Sep 86 09:33:20 GMT From: jml@cs.strath.ac.uk (Joseph McLean) Subject: Re: author lists I'm also interested in obtaining a complete listing of publications on Piers Anthony (i.e.those early stories which the average bookshop do not have).If anyone can help I would be grateful.I'm thinking of doing a "Piers Anthony File" a la the Jack Vance one that appeared a while back. (That one was most helpful). jml ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 86 19:18:53 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Leonardo da Vinci To the person who was looking for short stories with Leonardo... Have you ever read Heinlein's THE DOOR INTO SUMMER? Leonardo does not directly figure in the story, but RAH's idea is a good one (about 1-2 pp) ------------------------------ Date: 22 Sep 86 09:20:52 PDT (Monday) Subject: Title query From: Opstad.osbunorth@Xerox.COM Many years ago I read a short story about a man who invents a robot capable of playing (I think) the piano or harpsichord. When the robot finally is finished, and plays a piece, the man is moved to tears by the quality of performance, and the robot (who seems to be equipped with pseudo-Asimovian Laws) misinterprets the tears, and vows never to play again, so as not to harm the human. Anyone recognize the story? Thanks for the help! Dave Opstad (Opstad.osbunorth@Xerox.COM) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Sep 86 0928-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #314 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 29 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 314 Today's Topics: Films - 2001: A Space Odyssey & Beastmaster (2 msgs) & Blade Runner & The Fly (4 msgs) & Japanese Monster Movies (3 msgs) & Gulliver's Travels & I Married a Witch & SF Movies on Video (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Sep 86 16:02:01 GMT From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Voice of HAL-9000 > According to my foggy memory, Douglas Rains was a RAF Air Traffic > Control Officer picked because of his voice. No prior acting > experience whatsoever, and I don't know if he has done anything > else. Nope, that was the chap that radioed the Discovery from Earth - you know, the one that gave Bowman (or was it Poole?) the birthday message from his family. He didn't have any acting experience, then nor since, and this caused ructions amongst the acting community at the time as he didn't have an equity card. Tim Abbott {allegra,ihnp4}!{noao,ut-sally}!utastro!tmca tmca@astro.UTEXAS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 86 23:29:15 GMT From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: BEASTMASTER ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (e.c.leeper) writes: >>[questions about Beastmaster the movie and Beastmaster the book] > >This needs to get added the list of commonly asked questions; it's >been up at least four times this last year. Yes, the title was the >same. No, the film wasn't based on the book. I disagree. If the main character (and his pets) weren't based on the book it'd be an amazing coincidence. >No, Norton got no credit (I don't think you can >copyright one-word titles anyway). She got no credit, but I believe the studio owned the movie rights to her book. Otherwise, Norton could retire on the proceeds from a lawsuit... Granted, the movie plot was very different from the book, (as I found to my abject disappointment when I saw it) but the movie has much more in common with the book than just the name. Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: 17 Sep 86 17:20:43 GMT From: dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low) Subject: Re: BEASTMASTER (was Re: Movies) > ... Yes, the title was the same. No, the film wasn't based on the > book. No, Norton got no credit (I don't think you can copyright > one-word titles anyway). I distinctly remember reading that Norton's book was optioned for the movie and was greatly disappointed when I saw the resulting movie which had gone through usual "creative butchering" that all too often happens to a book when it is made into a movie. When I saw the movie in the theater, I also saw a "based on book by Andre Norton" credit. Danny Low ...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow ------------------------------ Date: 20 Sep 86 20:06:52 GMT From: knight@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Kevin Knight) Subject: blade runner soundtrack I was off the net this summer when a discussion of the Blade Runner soundtrack took place. I have seen the album, but I'm not sure if I want to get it... Would someone mail me a summary of the postings? Thanks, Kevin Knight (knight@a.cs.cmu.edu) ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 86 22:20:15 GMT From: udenva!showard@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve "Blore" Howard) Subject: More on The Fly (was Re: Gross and Disgusting Movies) PMacay.PA@Xerox.COM(Pete) writes: >I think the only purpose of this film is to say 'Hey, lets see how >gross we can get.' I don't mind gore if it has something to do >with the story, but here the plot and characterization was >secondary to the new and improved 'state of the art G&D affects.' I'm sorry, but I completely disagree. The special effects were necessary to the story, to my way of thinking anyway. Consider the scene where Seth's ear falls off and Veronica hugs him (and everyone in the audience says "Eugh"). This scene, for me, captures the essence of the film quite nicely: even though he's changing into some horrible monster she still loves him. Would this scene have been nearly as effective if Goldblum had been sitting there wearing a giant plastic fly head? Ultimately, "The Fly" is a movie about two people in a doomed relationship. >I thought Gene Siskel said it best, 'Why do they remake great films >that can never possibly be as great as the original. Why dont they >remake lousy films with a good premise and improve on them.' I can't believe Siskel said that about "The Fly." The 1958 version was a campy throwaway film, and Cronenburg's version is exactly what Siskel wants: an improved remake of a lousy film with a good premise. Steve Howard {hplabs, seismo}!hao!udenva!showard {boulder, cires, ucbvax!nbires, cisden}!udenva!showard ------------------------------ Date: 20 Sep 86 19:06:14 GMT From: ucdavis!u552434981ea@caip.rutgers.edu (u552434981ea) Subject: Re: More on The Fly (was Re: Gross and Disgusting Movies) showard@udenva.UUCP (Steve "Blore" Howard) writes: >PMacay.PA@Xerox.COM(Pete) writes: >>I thought Gene Siskel said it best, 'Why do they remake great >>films that can never possibly be as great as the original. Why >>dont they remake lousy films with a good premise and improve on >>them.' > > I can't believe Siskel said that about "The Fly." The 1958 >version was a campy throwaway film, and Cronenburg's version is >exactly what Siskel wants: an improved remake of a lousy film with >a good premise. I saw Siskel and Ebert(can't ever remember that name) on The Tonight Show with Johnny a couple of weeks ago and when Johnny asked them at the end of the show which movie they recomended the most of all the summer movies the both said without hesitation The Fly. I really can't see him saying that unless he was refering to other remakes. Bryan McDonald ------------------------------ Date: 23 Sep 86 15:03:22 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: More on The Fly (was Re: Gross and Disgusting Movies) >Consider the scene where Seth's ear falls off and Veronica hugs him >(and everyone in the audience says "Eugh"). This scene, for me, >captures the essence of the film quite nicely: even though he's >changing into some horrible monster she stills loves him. Would >this scene have been nearly as effective if Goldblum had been >sitting there wearing a giant plastic fly head? In fact there was a similar scene in the original that works considerably better than this scene in the remake. Andre has picked up his fainted wife and tenderly lays her down. It seems natural at this point that he would kiss her and he starts to out of habit, only to realize, to his frustration, that it is no longer physically possible to show physical signs of affection. The scene works for me. >>I thought Gene Siskel said it best, 'Why do they remake great >>films that can never possibly be as great as the original. Why >>dont they remake lousy films with a good premise and improve on >>them.' > >I can't believe Siskel said that about "The Fly." The 1958 >version was a campy throwaway film, and Cronenburg's version >is exactly what Siskel wants: an improved remake of a lousy >film with a good premise. I see very little camp in the original production. Camp is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose. And it is true that two of the actors took the original film as a joke, but I think that director Kurt Neumann got serious performances and made a film that is very good in most aspects. Some of the science is not very good, but I admire the film in every other regard. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 86 22:20:15 GMT From: udenva!showard@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve "Blore" Howard) Subject: More on The Fly (was Re: Gross and Disgusting Movies) PMacay.PA@Xerox.COM(Pete) writes: >I think the only purpose of this film is to say 'Hey, lets see how >gross we can get.' I don't mind gore if it has something to do >with the story, but here the plot and characterization was >secondary to the new and improved 'state of the art G&D affects.' I'm sorry, but I completely disagree. The special effects were necessary to the story, to my way of thinking anyway. Consider the scene where Seth's ear falls off and Veronica hugs him (and everyone in the audience says "Eugh"). This scene, for me, captures the essence of the film quite nicely: even though he's changing into some horrible monster she stills loves him. Would this scene have been nearly as effective if Goldblum had been sitting there wearing a giant plastic fly head? Ultimately, "The Fly" is a movie about two people in a doomed relationship. >I thought Gene Siskel said it best, 'Why do they remake great films >that can never possibly be as great as the original. Why dont they >remake lousy films with a good premise and improve on them.' I can't believe Siskel said that about "The Fly." The 1958 version was a campy throwaway film, and Cronenburg's version is exactly what Siskel wants: an improved remake of a lousy film with a good premise. Steve Howard {hplabs, seismo}!hao!udenva!showard {boulder, cires, ucbvax!nbires, cisden}!udenva!showard ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 86 03:57:45 GMT From: hoptoad!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: Raymond Burr in Godzilla ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes: > Now that you mention it, I wonder whether Raymond Burr was in the >original release of the remake. I saw the remake on a Japanese videocassette long before the American release. Nope, no Raymond Burr to be seen. Mike Farren hoptoad!farren ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 86 03:11:14 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory? >>Nope! Raymond Burr was not in the ORIGINAL Japanese film. > >I'd like to see it. Now that you mention it, I wonder whether >Raymond Burr was in the original release of the remake. I have seen the original in Japanese with a half-hearted science fiction convention helper explaining what it was all about. This was before there was an English language version. No. The original Japanese version of what we call GODZILLA '85 did not have Burr. I doubt that most Japanese audiences would have known who he was, having not seen him in their version. In any case, GODZILLA '85 was not a remake of the original. It was a direct sequel to the original as if none of the other sequels had ever been made. Now the Godzilla mythos follows a tree structure. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 26 September 1986 15:36:19 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson Subject: Old monster movies And how about all those old monster movies? You know: big monster attacks Tokyo, stomps buildings, army shoots back, etc. One of my favorite monsters was Gamera, the Flying Turtle. Remember how he flew? He pulled in his head and arms, then jets of fire shot out of the sockets and he started spinning into the air. And of course, Godzilla, atomic breath and all. (There was a great moment in "Godzilla vs. the Smog Monster" where 'Zilla shoots a mighty blast of breath and flys backwards in pursuit of the smog monster). There was one movie, I think it was "Destroy All Monsters", where all the big-name monsters came together and had a party at the expense of some alien menace. Anyone else recall other movies of this sort? Carlo Samson U09862%uicvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 14 Sep 86 20:26:19 GMT From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) Subject: Re:Cartoon movie title request Well, one person knew the movie I was looking for. Here's his reply: From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU> >It is called "Gulliver's Travels Beyond the Moon". I remember this >movie fondly. I was particularly impressed by the effect of having >the water break the robots up into blocks. I can give you a more >detailed synopsis from memory if you wish. Plus.... > >I have the soundtrack album ! >... >I haven't seen it on video tape, but I'll watch for it. > >The kid's pet was your basic puppy. > >The music is nothing exceptional (except for the soundtrack even >*existing*), but the robots do have a nice, mechanical, menacing >march tune ("Rise, Robots, Rise!"). Has anyone else seen this movie? Now that I have a title, can the people of NJ look in their VCR rental company listings and see if it is offered? I would really appreciate it as I would like to see the movie again. Thanks. Jonathan D. Trudel arpa: trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4,pyrnj,pyramid}!topaz!trudel ------------------------------ Date: Fri 19 Sep 86 09:28:42-PDT From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA> Subject: Which Witch is Which.... from: david rickel >...I remember a much older movie (at least, I think it was much >older), where a witch and her father try to haunt a young >batchelor.... The title for this movie was _I_Married_A_Witch_ which starred Veronica Lake as the young (only appx 400 yrs old) witch. The names of the other actors escape me at the moment. It is of the 1940-41 vintage, somewhat prior to Veronica Lake cutting her hair short for the war effort (which also seemed to shorten her career). Walter Chapman ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 86 03:52:32 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: SciFi Movies on Video, Part II >>King Kong (1933 w/Fay Wray) >Did anybody else find that this was better, even in its effects, >than the later version. I have talked to a lot of people about the two versions. NOBODY prefers the remake! NOBODY! >>Logan's Run >For anybody who has only seen the abortive TV series that tried to >stand on this one's feet, take heart: the film is *far* better. That's not saying very much. There are major flaws with the film (particularly Farah-Fawcett's acting), but it is better than the TV show. >Pardon my memory, but I can't remember who played the woman >with whom he "run"s. She is also very good, though. Jenny Agutter, best known to cinema fans for RAILWAY CHILDREN and WALKABOUT and to the rest of us for AMERICAN WEREWOLF IN LONDON. >>Planet of the Apes (the whole series) >The book of Berton Rouche's, on which these are based, Actually it is Pierre Boulle. (Berton Rouche generally writes fascinating articles about medical detective work to fight disease. They are collected in books like ELEVEN BLUE MEN and THE INCURABLE WOUND. The title story of the former tells about the day that eleven skid row bums turned blue and checked into a local hospital. The doctors had to find the connecting link and stop it from happening again. (The only film that know of based on his writings was BIGGER THAN LIFE, a 1956 film in which timid school teacher, James Mason, turns into a human monster under the influence of new wonder-drug cortisone. It was an exaggerated but true story. I assume the film is now shown only very rarely. Rouche also wrote at least one fiction novel, a weak-looking novel called FERAL.) Boulle wrote THE PLANET OF THE APES (a.k.a. MONKEY PLANET), BRIDGE OVER THE RIVER KWAI, and GARDEN ON THE MOON. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 22 Sep 86 17:36:38 GMT From: jam@comp.lancs.ac.uk (John A. Mariani) Subject: Re: Movies on Video, Part IV From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA> >Here are a couple of more movies on video tape (or soon to be >released): > Daleks: Invasion Earth 2150 A.D. (w/Peter Cushing...just the old > _Dr._Who_and_the_Daleks_ repackaged and renamed -- avail >10/23/86) Oh no it isn't. This is the last of the two films Mr. Cushing made as Dr. Who. UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!jam DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@ucl-cs JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4467 Post: University of Lancaster, Department of Computing, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Sep 86 0947-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #315 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 29 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 315 Today's Topics: Radio - SF on Radio & BBC Lord of the Rings (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Who is Fuzzy Pink? (3 msgs) & Religion & Western Conventions & Origin of "ansible" & SF-Lovers T-Shirts & Impossibilities (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Sep 1986 09:50:48-EDT (Friday) From: ALBERGA%YKTVMH2.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Nostalgia -- SF on radio The discussion of SF on TV (I am about 25 digests behind right now, so if the topic has died put this in the past tense) has triggered my memory. In the late forties, when I was a relatively new SF fan, one of the AM radio stations in New York City, I think it was WCBS, had a series of late afternoon (after school) radio shows on various topics. Monday was science, Tuesday was history, etc. (the actual days slip my mind). They even sent out a small paper back book with one-page commentary on the upcoming programs. (I have a feeling that this was only done one year, but I may have only known about for one year.) The point is that one day a week they had a science fiction program. I know I heard most of them, but the only one I actually remember was a presentation of Bradbury's "There Shall Come Soft Rains", I know that it was from the show that I learned that the title came from a poem by Sarah Teasdale (sp?). So -- does anyone out there remember this series? Have I managed to get any of the details right? Cyril N. Alberga ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 86 15:01:44 PDT From: Chris McMenomy <christe%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA> Subject: The BBC Lord of the Rings Does anyone have a cast list for the BBC radio version Lord of the Rings (26 half-hour episodes, introduced by Tammy Grimes and starring Michael Hodern as Gandalf and Ian Holm as Frodo)? Only a few of the characters are given at the end of each episode, and we haven't been able to find out who played Treebeard. My husband is certain he has heard the voice elsewhere. Christe McMenomy randvax!christe Rand Corporation ------------------------------ Date: 24 Sep 86 15:07:10 GMT From: cbuxc!dim@caip.rutgers.edu (Dennis McKiernan) Subject: Re: The BBC Lord of the Rings My question is: does anyone know how to get a *copy* of this most wonderful set of tapes. The US version is so poor by comparison to the BBC version... I'd love any info on how to go about getting a copy of the BBC version... Thanks... D. L. McKiernan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 86 22:38:27 edt From: Bard Bloom <bard@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU> Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #298 > in what I assume was an inside joke for SF fans, Fuzzy-Pink. Could someone explain the inside joke? Thanks ------------------------------ Date: 22 Sep 86 03:58:26 GMT From: crash!victoro@caip.rutgers.edu (Victor O'Rear) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #298 From: Bard Bloom <bard@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU> >> in what I assume was an inside joke for SF fans, Fuzzy-Pink. >Could someone explain the inside joke? Fuzzy Pink Niven is the fannish name for Mrs. Larry Niven. (Famous Science- Fiction author) I'm not sure why, it sounds like it's the name of a drink. But that's the source.. Course I haven't seen the full sentence you are referring to, so I may be dead wrong. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Sep 86 22:31:14 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #298 Actually you are quoting me, not who you claim to be quoting. I never was much in organized fandom, but it seems to me in the 60's there was a well-known fan who went by the name Fuzzy-Pink. Forward may have picked up that the name is of the same format as his alien names. My memory, also fuzzy, seems to say that she is now Mrs. Larry Niven. Can someone confirm or deny this? Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Mon 15 Sep 86 13:09:41-PDT From: Judy Anderson <yduJ@SRI-KL.ARPA> Subject: Kids and Heinlein (was Clarke's Writings on Religion) (I apologize for the potential lateness of this reply; I've been having problems receiving SF-Lovers in a timely fashion.) Charley Wingage writes about Heinlein's books and their contents: >If I had kids now at the same age, I believe I would discourage >them from reading a lot of the same books, because they would be >most unlikely to be able to evaluate what they were reading and >reject what was racist or sexist in the writing. So in that sense >there is some purpose for review boards, as long as their purpose >is not intellectual purity. I disagree. I think a much healthier attitude would be to find out what your kids were reading, and when you thought that their books might contain messages such as racism and sexism, talk to them about what messages *they* found in the book after reading it (after all they might have missed them as was pointed out by Glenn Thain). Then discuss the messages *you* found, why you found them (examples from the book) and why you think the messages are not good ones. This teaches your kids to read more carefully for content, exposes them to the Big Bad World, and gives you a chance to present your views. If your views are not obviously bogus, or you are particularly persuasive, your kids will be inclined to believe as you do. I think that with kids censorship is a mistake, because they'll have grown up in a pristine environment, and then when they get exposed to the Big Bad World when they're 20 they'll be more susceptible to corruption because they've never heard arguments for or against their parents' lifestyle. Instead the parents should expose their kids to alternatives and explain why they've chosen their particular one. Science fiction books are a pretty safe way to get exposure. Judy Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Thu 25 Sep 86 12:46:23-PDT From: Lynn Gold <Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Western cons between now and 4/1/87 To: mcdaniel@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu Tim - Your best bet is to hit LOSCON on Thanksgiving weekend. Of the various cons going on between now and then, LOSCON is the biggest. There IS Octocon in the bay area in 2 weeks, but it's a really small con. LOSCON takes place November 28-30, 1986, at the Pasadena Hilton Hotel. Pro GOH is John Brunner; Fan GOHs are Bruce and Elayne Pelz. Membership information can be obtained by writing: LOSCON Los Angeles Science Fantasy Society, Invc. 11513 Burbank Blvd. North Hollywood, CA 91601 Since there are no other cons going on that weekend in CA, many Bay Area fen will be going. I won't, but I have a DAMN good reason (my husband and I are going to Japan for two weeks around then and someone else is paying for it!). Lynn ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 86 15:01:09 GMT From: bambi!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Caplinger) Subject: origin of term "ansible" The word "ansible" was first used, as far as I know, in Ursula K. LeGuin's Hainish novels, as a term for an instantaneous communications device. It was also used by Orson Scott Card in ENDER'S GAME and SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD, meaning the same thing. My question: was this an English word before LeGuin? If so, what does it mean, and if not, does it have any etymology that would suggest instantaneous communication? I've checked in Webster's and Random House and can't get to a copy of the OED. I'll warn you ahead of time that it was years before I realized that LeGuin's NAFAL drive meant "nearly as fast as light." Mike Caplinger (mike@bellcore.com, ihnp4!bambi!mike) ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 27 Sep 1986 02:08-EDT From: jmturn%ringwld.UUCP@CCA.CCA.COM Subject: T-Shirt update (final [I Hope]) Ok gang, the shirts are sitting in my apartment. They have been stuffed into manilla envelopes, they have been addressed, they will be mailed monday. The grundgy details: Total Shirts: OrdIn Order Rec Surp XL 40[1] 60 51 11 L 54[2] 60 57 3 M 44[3] 60 61 17 S 7 24 23 16 Total 145 204 192 47 Notes: [1] Includes one XL allocated to me. [2] Includes one L for Artist and one L for me. [3] Includes one M for Artist. Comments: The shirts are going out 3rd class. There are a number of issues the post awful and I will be working out Monday. These include: 1) Are the manilla envelopes I'm using beefy enough to take 3rd class handling? If they are, go to 2; else, buy more expensive mailing envelopes, loos a week of time to restuff them, and mail. 2) Are all the packages under 1 pound (the maximum for 3rd). I have my doubts about some of the ones with 3 shirts in them, although I really hope the 2-shirt ones make it. Any that go over 1 pound will have the line containing the words "Third Class" taped over, and will be sent 4th class. 3) Assuming all goes well, you should receive your shirts according to the whims of the USPS. Please open the package immediately and make sure you got what you ordered. I was pretty careful as to stuffing them right, but as the order represents exactly 100 packages, I was getting a little punchy toward the end. As we are already critically short on items like Large shirts, the lack of one of those must be handled quickly. Personal Comments: This was very little fun at all to do. The T-shirt company screwed me in quite a few ways, including very slow service once they got my check, and inaccurate filling of the order. Buying envelopes, printing labels, licking the bloody things, all were unpleasant and tedious. I still have to go through mailing the suckers. I understand some of you are very unhappy about the amount of time it took for these to get printed. I am even aware of people who are trying to notify their local attorney generals about me. Listen folks, I'm not trying to rip you off, I really do have the T-shirts, they've certainly stunk up my apartment enough. I have learned several lessons from this, one of which is never to do cash-up-front business with a T-shirt company again. I only hope the shirts are worth it to you folks. I like them, I hope you do too. James M. Turner President Pipe Dream Associates {decvax,ima}!cca!ringwld!jmturn ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 86 02:13:13 GMT From: ahh@h.cc.purdue.edu (Brentrock of Hyperborea) Subject: Re: Impossibilities griffith@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Cutter John) writes: >ags@h.cc.purdue.edu.UUCP (Dave Seaman) writes: >>Theoretical impossiblity: we can prove it can't be done. The most >>famous example is, of course, the transmutation of the elements, a >>longstanding fantasy, born form deep desires in the human psyche, >>finally laid to rest by the Atomic Theory, which showed the >>chemical elements to be immutable. > >One nit-picky correction: > >Call me an idiot, but I would consider fusion and fission to be >processes which have a side-result of transmuting elements. Why should anyone want to call you an idiot, Mr. Griffith? You're right. However, elemental transmutation *used* to be impossible. It isn't any more. Perhaps we should take a lesson from this. . . Brent Woods USENET: {seismo, decvax, ucbvax, ihnp4}!pur-ee!h.cc!ahh ARPANET: woodsb@el.ecn.purdue.edu BITNET: PODUM@PURCCVM USNAIL: Brent Woods Box 1004 Cary West Lafayette, IN 47906 PHONE: (317) 495-2011 ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 86 18:13:22 GMT From: unc!gallmeis@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Gallmeister) Subject: Re: Impossibilities (...and Recommended Reading) Just blue-skying...I was reading some quasi-mystic work of Carl Jung last night, and so my brain is a little more open on top than usual... 1. Man the animal has a penchant for rules: "This shalt be true", often attached to "..because of X". 2. Man has rules and the universe -- just kind of works. In reality, there is no E, or M, or C, and certainly no "squaring". These are labels man uses to define our universe. They are only true so far as we can see today. 3. The universe is uncharacterizable in its entirety by Man, because we are only Man, and when we characterize a thing, we bring our own bias into the matter. For instance, when we say that it's impossible to go faster than the speed of light, we are implying that the only way to get from A to B is by traversing some connected path from A to B. This is reasonable for us to assume -- for US to assume. Today. The point of this disconnected raving is that the rules we posit are only as good as the environment they are proposed in. What is God's Truth today (pick your dogma; any dogma!) can be disproven in an instant if we poke our heads out of the little rut we live in. FTL transport will become a reality, and all it will mean is that we were wrong. Again. Recommended reading: There is a GREAT little story by Jack Vance, entitled ``The Men Return''. I think it is in either _The Worlds of Jack Vance_, an excellent collection, or _The Best of Jack Vance_, a very good collection. Bill O. Gallmeister ...!mcnc!unc!gallmeis ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 86 18:13:54 GMT From: ubc-cs!andrews@caip.rutgers.edu (Jamie Andrews) Subject: Re: Impossibilities If we have extreme faith in the *results* of scientific theory, we run the risk of stifling inquiry which leads to better theory. However, if we put inordinate amounts of effort into pursuing alternate theories which question the accepted ones, we can't get anything done, because the results just don't come out for every crackpot theory around. We clearly have to strike a balance between these extremes. I have almost as much skepticism about unquestioning faith in theory as Mr. Firth does. However, I myself have unquestioning faith in the scientific *method*, which is a very different thing. All the examples Firth gives of wrong theories are examples with people not being careful enough with their predictions, because of sloppiness or lack of knowledge. Whenever these theories were refuted, it was because people said "maybe this will work" -- and then *followed the scientific method* in doing their experiments. Experiment, collate, predict, test: there is no replacement for this. Certainly saying "maybe this will work" and then not backing it up with experiment, but rather saying "all you silly scientists have been wrong in the past, whadda you think of that" is no replacement. firth@sei.cmu.edu writes: >For a contemporary analogy, look at the "ten million lines of >working software is impossible" debate. I hope everyone realizes what this is referring to. The question is, when most software engineers who are not in the pay of certain groups, and some who are, say "it would be a modern miracle if we were able to write ten million lines of bug-free software", should we invest millions of dollars in research whose goal *must* be ten million lines of *completely* bug-free software? Nuff said. >Perhaps we should avoid the word "impossible", and say only "we >don't know how", or "our current theories predict it won't happen", >or something sounding a little less like Divine Truth. Well, I think we should keep using the word "impossible", and make sure everyone knows that that *doesn't* mean Divine Truth. Whenever we say "never", "every", "always", or any number of other words, we really mean "never, etc. as far as our knowledge can comprehend it". Only the very naive can really doubt that. We must, I think, have faith in the scientific method, unless something like organized religion replaces that faith for us. (In which case, if your God says "you can travel faster than light", go ahead and try! :-) but don't expect me to believe it until you give it some scientific basis.) Jamie. ...!seismo!ubc-vision!ubc-cs!andrews ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Sep 86 1015-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #316 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 29 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 316 Today's Topics: Television - Anderson (9 msgs) & Roddenberry (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Sep 86 11:29:28 PDT (Monday) Subject: Thunderbirds From: Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM >This was (The?) _Thunderbirds_. I remember this one a little >better than most because I saw a movie of the same one or two years >back. There was also a space station and a (six-wheeled?) car in >the arsenal, and the operators of the various units were brothers, >except for the car. The car, as I recall, was pink and belonged to >a girl who was (I think) the sister. The entire operation was >'Earth/Space Rescue' or 'Space Rescue'. Also, I'm pretty sure that >they had toys based on this show, because I have a very vague >memory of owning a toy pink car. All of the above should be >considered to be even more heavily qualified than it already is... The pink car in Thunderbirds was a 21st century 6 wheeled Rolls Royce, owned by Lady Penelope, driven by Parker (who was always saying "Yes Milady" in a very lugubrious tone of voice .. an unsung hero). I don't know how true this is, but I heard that Anderson was unsuccessfully sued by Rolls for unauthorised use of the RR logo, name and style. The case is supposed to have been thrown out with the comment that RR should take it as a compliment. The outfit was called International Rescue, founded by 'Old Man' Tracy (the first man to Mars). There were 5 vessels, Thunderbirds 1 through 5. (Lady Penelope's RR was her own personal mode of transport). Thunderbird 1 was half rocket, half airplane which took off vertically from under the swimming pool (which divided and slid apart revealing the launch silo). Scott Tracy was the pilot. Thunderbird 2 was the dumpy cargo-pod carrier, which used to take off on an instant-runway (an avenue of trees folded out of the way, a Harrier type ramp lifted up at the end of the runway and a rockface tilted up as a blast wall - I think). Piloted by Virgil Tracy. Thunderbird 3 was the red traditional rocket ship, with 3 fins/rocket pods concentrically around the 'bottom'. It used to blast off up the middle of the round house. I can't remember the pilots name. Thunderbird 4 was the small yellow submarine, often carried around by Thunderbird 2. Piloted by Gordon Tracy. Thunderbird 5 was the space station, captained by Alan Tracy. 'Brains' was my favourite character, the one with the heavy black rimmed glasses, the stutter and a brain like a Cray XMP. I would appreciate any corrections/additions, as my memory of Thunderbirds is fast fading and could do with a refresh. Like why do I have the idea that Thunderbird 6 was a bi-plane? Did it feature in any episodes/films (or movies, in USspeak)? Ah, nostalgia isn't what it used to be. Hugh ARPA: Hippo.SBDERX@Xerox.COM ------------------------------ Date: 23 Sep 86 19:43:30 GMT From: okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (The New Number Who) Subject: Re: Thunderbirds Anybody notice that the names of 4 of the 5 Thunderbirds are names out of U.S. Space history? Scott -- Scott Carpenter Alan -- Alan Shepard Gordon -- Gordon Cooper Virgil -- "Gus" Grissom Given this basis, I would think that the fifth pilot would either be John (Glenn), Neil (Armstrong), or Douglas (Slayton). Jeff Okamoto ucbvax!okamoto okamoto@ucbvax.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: 23 Sep 86 20:11:10 GMT From: utastro!allen@caip.rutgers.edu (J. Allen Hill) Subject: Re: Thunderbirds This was a great show, and obviously stuck with many of the viewers though it's been ages since it was done. Why don't these show up on reruns? Are marionettes too passe as animation? Don't TV execs think we'd eat it up again? J. Allen Hill Astronomy Dept, University of Texas, Austin TX 78712 {allegra,ihnp4}!{ut-sally,noao}!utastro!allen (UUCP) allen@astro.UTEXAS.EDU. (Internet) ------------------------------ Date: 24 Sep 86 08:26:07 GMT From: jam@comp.lancs.ac.uk (John A. Mariani) Subject: Re: Thunderbirds okamoto@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (The New Number Who) writes: >Hugh_W_Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM writes: >>Thunderbird 3 >>I can't remember the pilots name. The pilot's name was Alan. >>Thunderbird 5 , captained by Alan Tracy. No it wasn't -- it was John Tracy. John and Alan were supposed to "swap" duties -- as it must've got pretty lonely up there! I can only remember seeing this happen once. >Anybody notice that the names of 4 of the 5 Thunderbirds are names >out of U.S. Space history? > > Scott -- Scott Carpenter > Alan -- Alan Shepard > Gordon -- Gordon Cooper > Virgil -- "Gus" Grissom > >Given this basis, I would think that the fifth pilot would either >be John (Glenn), Indeed, Jeff. Good guess! The names were quite deliberately taken from US Space history -- I think Jeff (pa) Tracy was an astronaut himself. What with all the GA discussions going on, may I plug a British GA fanclub, "Fanderson" and its fanzine "SIG" (Supermarionation Is Go!). Well, its not really its fanzine, as it is produced independantly. Unfortunately I don't have the addresses involved at hand, but please e-mail me for further details. If I get enough response, I'll post the info. O.K.? UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!jam DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@ucl-cs JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4467 Post: University of Lancaster, Department of Computing, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Sep 86 19:57:52 GMT From: watarts!nfriesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Nancy Friesen) Subject: Anderson &c. > (Thunderbirds, Captain Scarlet, Fireball XL-5) There's at least one more G&S Anderson show that hasn't ( I think) been mentioned yet. STINGRAY (nothing [fortunately] to do with GM products). The name refers to a submarine stationed in a secret base under our hero's house in (I believe) the south coast of England. The sub goes running around destroying evil shark submarines and exploring. I'm not sure if the show ever made it to NA - I saw it in Britain in ~1967. In case anyone suspects me of delusion, I've got several Thunderbirds, Captain Scarlet, and Stingray p'backs that all claim to be taken from BBC tv series'. dave watmath!watarts!nfriesen watmath!watdcs!sqartgra ------------------------------ Date: 24 Sep 86 21:17:22 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Old SF-tv (Anderson) Re: British HOTOL launch scheme Are you sure they mean to do that? A long level track with a sudden upswing at the end? Gack. Someone pointed out (maybe Heinlein?) that a long ramp was best--no curves in the damn thing--they introduce unnecessary G forces (along varying directions). Presumably the space plane will be built to take G's in all sorts of directions anyway (adding to the weight of the thing), so I guess it doesn't matter. Myself, I still favor vertical take-off, ballistic reentry vehicles. Call me old-fashioned. david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 86 06:56:28 GMT From: crash!victoro@caip.rutgers.edu (Victor O'Rear) Subject: Re: Old SF-tv (Anderson) daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes: >Are you sure they mean to do that? A long level track with a >sudden upswing at the end? Gack. Someone pointed out (maybe >Heinlein?) that a long ramp was best--no curves in the damn >thing--they introduce unnecessary G forces (along varying >directions). Presumably the space plane will be built to take G's >in all sorts of directions anyway (adding to the weight of the >thing), so I guess it doesn't matter. > >Myself, I still favor vertical take-off, ballistic reentry >vehicles. Call me old-fashioned. Actually TB2 rolled down the strip, with palm trees parting along the way, and then stoped at the end and was then lifted at an angle while a rock- outcropping lifted up to provide a 'support' for the exaust. And then it would fire up and shoot into the sky. I must say, it allways moved as though it weighed TONS! (As well it should, Olly) Victor O'Rear {ihnp4, akgua, sdcsvax, cbosgd, sdamos, bang}!crash!victoro ARPA: crash!victoro@[ucsd,nosc] BIX: victoro Proline: ...!{pro-sol,pro-mercury}!victoro People-Net: ....!crash!Pnet#01!victoro ------------------------------ Date: 20 Sep 86 21:59:10 GMT From: hpcnoe!jason@caip.rutgers.edu (Jason Zions) Subject: Re: Old SF-TV Shows I'm sure "Paul" had a last name, but I am equally sure it was used only once or twice. Ed Straker was the only one who was more than a first name. There was an episode concerning the death of his son and the ensuing breakup of his marriage, for example. Straker was, for the most part, the only non-cardboard character in the entire show. Pretty good for an Anderson show, though - at there WAS a non-cardboard character! But they had some great designs and some terrible designs for their equipment. Their subs consisted of a small fighter plane grafted onto the front end of a submersible tender; these guys would prowl the oceans and occasionally launch this fighter against a ufo that got through the space-borne defenses. The subs could also torpedo ufos that got underwater; one episode concerned a ufo base established underwater. Their space defenses were based on the moon; they consisted of interceptor spaceships that were a propulsion system, a cockpit, and a missle. That's it; one missle. The missle was about 2/3 the length of the rest of the interceptor. Dumb design; they'd send 'em after ufos in threes, so if all three missed, the ufo got through. No orbital defenses; just an orbiting computer/tracking system called SID, Space-borne Intruder Detector (I think); this beast was solid computer and sensors. The computer was slightly AI. Unfortunately, he was a sitting duck; another episode involves ufos knocking SID out to avoid detection of a large invasion fleet from another direction. The moon base was pretty cool; all the women wore their hair identically (bowl- type hairstyle), wore tight-fitting silver mylar outfits. One or two of them were pretty tough people; in one episode, the moonbase commander gets killed; his second is this woman who manages to hold the place together even though it's getting heavily bombed by ufos. We're talking people in spacesuits, trying to avoid getting hit by shrapnel. A pretty good episode; I think Straker made her base commander afterwards. They also had some moonrovers (one looks amazingly like the flying craft that appeared from time to time in Dick Tracy!) and earth tanks that were the ground based defense force. One of Gerry and Sylvia's best efforts, in my opinion; superior to Space:1999, in that the interceptors appeared to be powerful enough to make swooping turns in space. Remember the way an Eagle could turn on a dime and retreat? Since the Interceptors were almost all engine, I might believe it. Jason Zions Hewlett-Packard Colorado Networks Division 3404 E. Harmony Road Mail Stop 102 Ft. Collins, CO 80525 {ihnp4,seismo,hplabs,gatech}!hpfcdc!hpcnoe!jason ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 86 16:23:24 GMT From: ihlpf!rtradm@caip.rutgers.edu (Vangsness) Subject: Anderson &c Stingray was shown on North American TV during the sixties. It was syndicated agin in the seventies and showed up on channel 60 in Chicago in reruns about three years ago. Bob Neumann ------------------------------ Date: 24 Sep 86 18:05:59 GMT From: grc97!hurst@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Hurst) Subject: old SF TV movies Does anybody know if Gene Roddenberry's (sp?) post-Star Trek TV-movies are available on video? There was Genesis II and its sequel (I don't remember the name). I remember a movie called (I think) Spectre, which was about a contempory ghost hunter who discoveres a cult of people worshipping Asmodeus in Britain. I read the book version of Questor, but I don't know if it was ever produced on television. As I recall, all of these movies were supposed to be pilots for new SF TV series' which never got off the ground. Its a shame, too, because Roddenberry had better ideas than anything I've seen on TV in the last 10-15 years (yes, that includes Space 1999, Buck Rogers, and V). David Hurst, KSC Gould Research Center email: ...ihnp4!grc97!hurst phone: (312) 640-2044 ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 86 18:57:51 GMT From: netxcom!rkolker@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker) Subject: Re: old SF TV movies hurst@grc97.UUCP (Dave Hurst) writes: >Does anybody know if Gene Roddenberry's (sp?) post-Star Trek >TV-movies are available on video? There was Genesis II and its >sequel (I don't remember the name). I remember a movie called (I >think) Spectre, which was about a contempory ghost hunter who >discoveres a cult of people worshipping Asmodeus in Britain. I read >the book version of Questor, but I don't know if it was ever >produced on television. As I recall, all of these movies were >supposed to be pilots for new SF TV series' which never got off the >ground. Its a shame, too, because Roddenberry had better ideas than >anything I've seen on TV in the last 10-15 years (yes, that >includes Space 1999, Buck Rogers, and V). To my knowledge, none of the Roddenberry Television pilots are available commercially, but all have been on tv a few times and are probably swappable with someone on the net. I'd have to check my collection, I may have one or more. Some answers to implied questions. There were actually three versions of the Genesis II concept. The original, Planet Earth, and one the studio did w/o Roddenberry after buying the concept called Brave New Earth (I think). Genesis II reached serious preproduction with CBS and six story outlines were ordered (I've got copies) One became the plot of Planet Earth, another was the genesis (sorry) of the plot for ST I. The other four (off the top of my head, I can look all this up if anyone's interested) had one set in Austria where you had to sing anything you said, one was in England, one involved Dylan Hunt getting involved with "himself" in some strange time warp, and I forget the fourth. The Questor Tapes was made. It starred Robert(Falcoln Crest) Foxworth as Questor and Mike(MASH) Farrell as Jerry Robinson. Spectre starred Robert(I Spy,GAH)Culp and Gig Young in characters based on Holmes and Watson. Majel (Mrs. Roddenberry) Barrett played a witch/housekeeper. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Dr. Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 86 20:35:13 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: old SF TV movies hurst@grc97.UUCP (Dave Hurst) writes: > Does anybody know if Gene Roddenberry's (sp?) post-Star Trek > TV-movies are available on video? Don't know about the availability. The sequel to Genesis II was Planet Earth (starring John Saxon as Dylan Hunt). The Genesis II series was killed by the Planet of the Apes movies (monkeys--the public wants monkeys). The Questor series was killed by the 6M$ Man (they weren't actually killed, they were out-competed. it's a jungle out there) (the above conclusions are from vague recollections of a lecture by Roddenberry given about 10 years ago). Of the three pilots, I liked Questor the best. I think that Genesis II would have made the better series, though (it shouldn't be too surprising that both Questor and Genesis II featured Majel Barrett. I don't remember about Planet Earth). Yes, Star Trek was better than anything that has been on American TV since. Too bad, but the networks seem to be afraid of quality. david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Sep 86 0800-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #317 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 30 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 317 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Friday, 19-Sep-86 14:49:29-BST From: COBLEY A (on DUNDEE DEC-10) <A.Cobley%dundee.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK> Subject: aliens the view from scotland I've just seen the film ALIENS and would like to put my penny's worth into the discusions that are going on concerning the film. Of course you lucky **** in the states have had months to think about these thing and I've had just a week but here goes. First of all let me say that I think the film is absolutly superb and that if sigorney (sp?) weaver doesn't get some sort of award then I'm going to scream. Now lets get on with some of the 'hard' points that I wanted to raise. 1: FTL The Nostromo (sp?) DOES have FTL drive. This is stated in the first book BUT even if it wasn't heres some more pointers that imply it. i: Ripley says that she promised to be back for her daughters 11'th birthday, that makes the round trip less than 11 years earth time and most probably less. ii: In the book it says something like this when the shuttle is escaping from the Nostromo "The shuttle slipped out of the hyper drive field". This explains to me why the explosion of the Nostromo didn't damage the shuttle craft. 2: The weapons. Something that did initially worry me in the film was that it was stated that they had only 50 rounds of amunition each for the final battle BUT it seemed to me that they let off a great deal more than that. At first I put this down to artistic license but then a friend of mine pointed out that in the scene with Ripley blowing away the eggs in the aliens lair, the counter on the side of the gun was counting down quite slowly, she came up with the following explanation. The guns are called Pulse rifles (sp?) which could mean that each round was in fact a burst of separate shells (say arranged as in a gatling gun) meaning that you could blow away a lot more per burst. Other points. i: The smart guns seemed to fire too slowly. ii: The smart guns look very clumsy to use ( I could be wrong !!) 3: The Aliens. Has anyone come with a reasonable survivalist reason for the metamorphsis from egg to parasite. Again my zooligist friend suggests that there is no evolutionary point to translation as most parasites get some advantage from living inside a host. She suggested that this stage of the life cycle would have been more believable if more than one chest buster emerged from the host, or if the host was used as a food source. She did have some more thoughts on this but in involved the life cycle of certain parasitic wasps and so one that I can't quite remember, I'll get her to post what she thought if any one wants to pursue this bit further. OK that's enough for now andy c cobley%dundee.micro%dundee@ucl-cs or tracey%dundee.micro%dundee@ucl-cs for the biological bits. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 86 00:26:06 GMT From: hcrvax!brian@caip.rutgers.edu (Brian Dickson) Subject: Re: ALIENS THEORY oz@yetti.UUCP (Ozan Yigit) writes: >And also, if we can suspend our belief long enough to accept that a >several-ton-heavy queen hanging off ripley's leg for several >seconds under extreme air pressure without tearing her apart,... I have seen the movie several times, and paid particular attention to detail in each successive viewing. I am not nit-picking in particular, I am simply taking a convenient opportunity to shed some light on this final scene, which most people (that I have talked to) find somewhat implausible. As the airlock opens, before it is entirely open, even by a few inches, the mama alien is braced, by way of numerous appendages, against the airlock door. She grabs Ripley *before* the doors are completely open. The time during which she actually holds on to Ripley and nothing else is slightly exaggerated by the switching of camera angles, etc. Re: reference to pulse-rifle ammo I can't remember exactly, but I seem to recall the phrase: 9mm caseless hollowpoint explosive, standard armour piercing rounds. Feel free to correct me if you disagree. Differing views make for interesting discussion if both sides listen. Brian Dickson. ------------------------------ Date: Mon 22 Sep 86 10:55:00-PDT From: Mary Holstege <HOLSTEGE@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Re: alternation of generations of aliens. I don't think we have seen any alternation of generations of aliens, really, only a weird kind of larval -> adult sequence. But the remark got me thinking about generation alternation in parasites and it seems likely to me that the aliens would alternate in a manner similar to parasites like aphids. Aphids' food source is sporadic, but rich when they have it. The strategy they have evolved is to crank out the generations through parthogenesis in a relatively immobile form while there is food, but to produce a sexual winged form when the food runs out. Lots of parasites follow this pattern. The argument about destroying the host does not apply because the creatures go off (a relatively long distance) to find a new host. Translated into alien terms I would think this means a space-faring generation. Perhaps that was what the ship in the original movie represented, with the beacon being some kind of a lure. Mary ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 86 14:58:30 PDT From: raoul@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA Subject: Vacuum packed Alien Queen I thought someone would point this out by now but since it didn't happen : When Ripley ran from the Alien Queen towards the shuttle did anyone notice her closing the shuttle door after she entered the ship? She DIDN'T close the door. I naturally assumed the Queen just followed her into the ship but not into the cockpit (Don't ask me why. The shuttle was making a lot of drastic manuevers to get out of the installation. She might have been temporarily disoriented). Look at the film again. So the question of whether the queen can survive in a vacuum has no relevance. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Sep 86 23:39:39 GMT From: reed!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Flanagan) Subject: ALIENS -- Costume Design I wonder if anyone out there can provide some details about the costumes in _ALIENS_. Specifically, I am interested in the business suits that the Company officials (including Burke) wore in the conference chamber. First, the suit-jacket: -How should one go about constructing the stand-up collar/flat-laying lapels? -What kind of material is Burke's made of? -Do they have breast pockets? How many? -Do they have hip-pockets? -Are they vented in back? Double or Single? -How many buttons in front? How many (if any) on the cuffs? -What kind of buttons are they? -How does the front panel terminate? i.e. Below the front closure, does the edge of the fabric curve around the corner, or is it a right-angled corner, or is it something else? Next, everything else: -Are the shirts and ties, as I believe them to be, simply off-the-rack sorts of things? -Do the slacks have any significant differences from off-the-rack stuff? -What sort of shoes do they wear? Socks? Belt? Cologne? (Hold up, there, boy...) Well, that's about it. I would also like to know about the military uniforms. That should be a rather simple matter, however, of determining which real-life military branches the various fatigues and flight coveralls are taken from. Perhaps someone out there has had enough experience to simply recognize the differences, whereas I would have to do some rather time-consuming research. Please post any replies here, as I'm sure that there are others who are interested besides me. Thankyou, Tim Flanagan ------------------------------ Date: 23 Sep 86 00:28:44 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Frost) Subject: More on _Aliens_ >I believe that Ripley states somewhere in the beginning of >the story (I beleive at the hearing) that the creatures could >survive in vacume. If she said it, I must've missed it. But she had only one example to look at, and it got fried REAL soon after blowing it out the door. >I also seem to remember that in the first book, Dallas and company >trapped the Alien in a room and decompressed it to no avail. Nope -- they tried to lure it into the airlock and blow the door, but Ash hit the klaxon before they blew the door. The alien jumped back and the internal door caught on the alien's tail. >Also, it is pretty unlikely that an external landing pod would be >pressurized, much the same as not pressurizing them on >airliners...there is no justification for the added expense. True that you probably wouldn't pressurize them. As for added expense, who knows what they'd consider justified? They may expect the doors to serve several purposes. Remember, airliners don't go orbital (yet), so there are differences there. Maybe there's some kind of oxygen pipeline? I can imagine LOTS of uses for putting one there, so this is a possibility. You don't need to have a very tight seal on the doors if you just keep feeding in oxygen. (more on that later) >in watching the film these things are all very agile and climb >walls and ceilings and jump all over the place without causing any >damage normally associated with a large mass. Therefore, I contend >that these creature are very light weight. Great. Never thought of that. Also, you had a herd of them above panels that were light enough to lift easily. >If anyone recalls the scene where Ripley and Newt are standing on >the platform where Bishop was supposed to pick them up, you will >remember that the dropship was knocked onto the platform by an >explosion. It is clearly shown in that scene that the landing gear >is jammed open by a piece of debris. My guess is that the queen >crawled in there, survived the trip up, and was ready to go at it >with everyone else once they got back to the Sulaco. These creatures are pretty bright (fundamental assumption -- they manage to be wherever you don't want them at the worst time all the time, therefore they must be making pretty good decisions). After crawling in, could it have cleared the debris? Then it (sorry, I don't call *that* a she) could have lived by the method I described above, and there'd be a decent seal on the doors. (Sealing, BTW, is a great idea when you don't want sand screwing everything up, so they probably did it). >2: The weapons. >[...] >The guns are called Pulse rifles (sp?) which could mean that each >round was in fact a burst of seperate shells (say arranged as in a >gatling gun) meaning that you could blow away alot more per burst. I like that idea. Pulse is also a good name to call the rail-gun idea that I threw on net.sf-lovers a week or so ago (I didn't think of it at the time, but if it fits....) This would indeed make the things more dangerous. However, they described the ammo pretty well in the movie, and I think they would hve mentioned such an arrangement. I have no idea what the jargon would be, so I can't tell if they did. Anyone check for this? >Other points. >i: The smart guns seemed to fire too slowly. >ii: The smart guns look very clumsy to use ( I could be wrong !!) The book describes the guns as *very* powerful. They'd take a hunk out of anything. You'd have to check the book for details, but it says the guns are pretty dangerous. Jim Frost UUCP: ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs BITNET: cscc71c@bostonu ------------------------------ Date: 23 Sep 86 04:29:24 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!boreas@caip.rutgers.edu (The Mad Tickle Monster) Subject: Re: More on _Aliens_ madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) mentions: >(Sealing, BTW, is a great idea when you don't want sand screwing >everything up, so they probably did it). ... Not to mention that atmospheric friction would probably turn the ship into either glowing gas or scrap metal if the gear stuck out. . . . Yes? No? It didn't look too pleasant going down, and the ship didn't have anything really protruding (note the swing-out weapons bays). Michael Justice BITNet: cscj0ac@bostonu ------------------------------ Date: 24 Sep 86 19:41:02 GMT From: ritcv!spw2562@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Aliens: Why did Bishop give back the pistol? >>Anyone remember a scene where someone hands Bishop a pistol? >>Remember what he does with it? Any conjectures as to why? >Yes, This was the scene were Bishop is being placed in the steam >tunnel in order to go out and use his Tandy model 100+ (grin) to >bring down the ship. One of the crew hands him a pistol which >Bishops hands right back. WHY did he hand it back? I've often >wondered that myself. Assuming that he follows Asimov's laws, then >perhaps he felt that the humans needed it more than he did. I >really just don't know, but I'll cros post this to net.movies From what I read in the book (saw the movie, too), the aliens hunted mainly by scent. Since Bishop was a synthetic, he would not attract the aliens to him, and would not need to defend himself against them. As a matter of fact, in the book, an alien attacks bishop once, because it sees him moving, but then turns and leaves him alone. Bishop conjectures that this is because he has no biological scent for the aliens to track. That would explain why he didn't take the pistol. Would have posted this sooner, but RIT's news posting didn't work. Steve Wall @ Rochester Institute of Technology UUCP: ..{allegra|seismo}!rochester!ritcv!spw2562 Unix 4.3 BSD BITNET: SPW2562@RITVAXC VAX/VMS 4.4 ------------------------------ Date: 25 Sep 86 15:32:32 GMT From: gitpyr!ccastkv@caip.rutgers.edu (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti) Subject: Re: Aliens: Why did Bishop give back the pistol? spw2562@ritcv.UUCP (Steve Wall) writes: >From what I read in the book (saw the movie, too), the aliens >hunted mainly by scent. Since Bishop was a synthetic, he would not >attract the aliens to him, and would not need to defend himself >against them. As a matter of fact, in the book, an alien attacks >bishop once, because it sees him moving, but then turns and leaves >him alone. Bishop conjectures that this is because he has no >biological scent for the aliens to track. That would explain why >he didn't take the pistol. I've been making the assumption that since the aliens possess at least a small modicum of intelligence they hunt for one of two reasons; food or to obtain host bodies for their young. Bishop, being a synthetic, probably wouldn't be very tasty making him of no use in either case. Therefore the aliens would probably leave him alone unless he posed some kind of direct threat to them. Therefore, as long as he didn't attack an alien he had no reason to have a gun. Keith Vaglienti Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastkv ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Sep 86 0817-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #318 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 30 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 318 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Delany & Ellison & MacAvoy & Plauger & Silverberg & Yarbro (3 msgs) & Longest Series (2 msgs) & Author Search ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Sep 86 21:48:23 GMT From: dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low) Subject: Foundation and Earth Foundation and Earth Isaac Asimov This book along with Foundation's Edge and Robots of Dawn connect Asimov's Robot and Foundation Universes together. The good news is that this is the final book. Everything is explained, all the loose ends are tied up, including what happened to the Solarians. The bad news is that the ending is a hook for a sequel. I have one complaint about the book and the trilogy. First, Asimov writes the book as a mystery when it is really a treasure hunt story. The conventions for the two types of stories are different. One result is a lot of extraneous dialogue as Asimov throws out red herrings by the barrel. Second, Robots of dawn is not the book Asimov would have written originally. Given the direction of the first two robot novels, the third novel should have shown a perfect robot/human society where robots and humans work together to form a better society than the human society of Earth and the robot society of Solaria. Danny Low Hewlett-Packard ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow ------------------------------ Date: 17 Sep 86 18:52:40 GMT From: PUCC.BITNET!6080626@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Samuel Delany everett@hp-pcd.UUCP (everett) writes: >got de-railed by Delany when I tried tackling a new (at the time) >book of his (I can't remember the title) where the character spends >the entire novel wandering around this immense city >(post-holocaust, I believe) without really DOING much. GREAT >language usuage and discriptions, etc, but I just got tired of no >plot developments. I realize it's unfair to give up on an author >after one dis-liked book, but I haven't time to read half of the >books I buy, now, so I haven't read much by him for the last ten >years or so. The book you are talking about can only be "Dhalgren". There is a joke, actually one of those "find the question for this answer" things...the answer is "The center of the sun, the speed of light, and page 60 of Dhalgren" the question is "Name three points mankind will never reach". (Yes, I know I stole this from an F&SF competition). Either you love Dhalgren or you hate it (the same is true of Delany actually). I thought Dhalgren was a really great book. Then I tried reading "Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand" and got bogged down. I will try again though. Once I got started on Dhalgren I couldn't put it down...even though as you said there was nothing really happening, just random events in this (yes, post-holocaust) ravaged city. A great book to have read. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 24 Sep 86 12:53:08-EDT From: eric <WCCS.E-SIMON%KLA.WESLYN%Wesleyan.Bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> Subject: harlan ellsion's ego ... Regarding the recent comments on Harlan Ellison: He came to Wesleyan University to speak around November of last year, and although I was unable to see him myself, I have since spoken to many people who did. Contrary to what some people have posted, he seemed quite friendly (he opened his lecture by passing out Oreo cookies to anyone who wanted them). However, his pompous attitude was also duly noted. At more than one point in the lecture, he told the audience that he considers himself (and expects others to consider him as) "a star." He also seemed to enjoy speaking about himself more than he did his books. This may have been appropriate, though, since the lecture was geared toward future writers more than it was toward HE fans. All in all, my friends came away from the lecture without any grievances and with respect for him. Eric J. Simon Welayan University wccs.e-simon%kla.weslyn@wesleyan ------------------------------ Date: 25 Sep 86 16:54:41 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: TWISTING THE ROPE by R. A. MacAvoy TWISTING THE ROPE by R. A. MacAvoy Bantam/Spectra, 1986 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper Although this is a sequel to MacAvoy's enormously popular TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON, it seems to have more in common with her latest, THE BOOK OF KELLS. Unfortunately, what this means is that she has drifted away from what I liked and into what I am not as interested in (though I can't say I actually *dislike* it either). TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON had as one of its two central characters Mayland Long. He was an enigmatic Chinese gentleman (in the literal sense of the word) and made TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON a truly memorable book. What appealed to me was MacAvoy's use of one of the lesser used (at that time anyway) mythologies--the Chinese mythology, with its dragons and spirits. The same was true of her "Damiano" series--set in medieval Italy, it drew upon Christian and Arab mythologies for its characters and story. THE BOOK OF KELLS was a step back toward the over-used--in this case, the Celtic. While I agree that Celtic mythology may have a certain appeal for someone named MacAvoy, I personally am getting somewhat tired of the current epidemic of Celtic and pseudo-Celtic fantasy covering the shelves in the science fiction/fantasy sections these days. Don't get me wrong. MacAvoy does it well, but I question the necessity of doing it at all these days. That brings us back to TWISTING THE ROPE. Martha Macnamara and Mayland Long are back, all right, but they're now the managers of a touring Celtic folk group. Seriously. There is a lot of time spent discussing the technical aspects of Celtic folk music and the emotions that it evokes, in fact more time than is spent on the fantastic aspects of the story, which seem pasted on for the purpose of making this a fantasy. It is, rather, a murder mystery that needn't have been fantasy at all. It's a well-written murder mystery, true, and I'm sure fascinating for those who are interested in Celtic music. But for me, for all these reasons I mentioned, it was a disappointment. My unreserved recommendation for TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON and the "Damiano" books still stands, however. I just hope that MacAvoy will return to the not-so-well-trodden ground she began to explore before. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 24 Sep 86 15:04:34 GMT From: peora!joel@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: P.J. Plauger >called "Wet Blanket". Unfortunately I can't remember the title of >the novel, but it did involve a formerly mad protagonist who had to >disable a mass driver on the moon to keep it from being used >against Earth a la _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_. I think the story was `Fighting Madness'. Joel Upchurch @ CONCURRENT Computer Corporation Southern Development Center 2486 Sand Lake Road/ Orlando, Florida 32809/ (305)850-1031 {decvax!ucf-cs, ihnp4!pesnta, vax135!petsd, akgua!codas}!peora!joel ------------------------------ Date: 25 Sep 86 16:53:15 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: TOM O'BEDLAM by Robert Silverberg TOM O'BEDLAM by Robert Silverberg Warner, 1986 (1985c) A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper [Warning: spoilers ahead.] I like Silverberg's novels; I really do. But this one is so exasperating, so annoying, that (to steal a quote) I do not want to set it down but cast it aside with great force. So what do I find so exasperating? Not Silverberg's writing style-- that is as good as ever. And his characters are memorable, three- dimensional--everything characters should be. It's the message that drives me up the wall. TOM O'BEDLAM takes place after the atomic war has decimated North America (and apparently the rest of the world, though no one can be sure anymore). Tom is a mutant who wanders through the western United States having visions of distant worlds and of the "Crossing" to them that mankind will soon experience. His visions, and those of the newly born tumbonde' sect, and those of the patients in an exclusive mental institution near Mendocino all point toward an apocalyptic transition for the human race. This vision is best expressed by one of the converts to tumbonde': "The gate will open; the great ones will come among us and make things better for us. That's what's going to happen, and it's going to happen very soon, and then everything will be okay, maybe for the first time ever." If this sounds like the current cults that say the ancient astronauts will return and solve all of mankind's problems, you're right. My objection to all this (in case you haven't figured it out) is that Silverberg seems to be saying that we needn't do anything to improve things hear on earth--powerful alien beings will show up to solve all our problems. He may even feel we *can't* do anything to improve things, a nihilistic belief that I simply cannot subscribe to. (Silverberg may not have these beliefs personally, but the book seems to be promoting them, so I'll use the shorthand of "Silverberg says.") One can argue that a belief in the Biblical apocalypse would result in similar conclusions, but at least that has the virtue (if one may call it such) that it relies on divine intervention, rather than on other mortals who are somehow more advanced than we. If these advanced mortals could pull themselves up to that level, why can't we? If one postulates that they were assisted by yet another advanced race, then we could easily get into the paradox of infinite regress here. As if this weren't enough, Silverberg has Tom--a gentle, pacifistic character--engage in some highly questionable activities. Tom, because of his mutation, is a critical nexus in the Crossing. And while some people are eager to "cross" and become the wards of these super-beings, others are not. And how does Tom feel about sending these, in effect killing them on Earth to send their souls elsewhere? "It wasn't a killing anymore than the other killings were. ... if I hadn't, he would have killed me sure as anything with that spike,and then there would be no more crossings for anyone. You understand that...? I didn't kill you...I did you the biggest favor of your life." So also said the Inquisition as it lit the auto da fe': "We torture your body so that we can save your soul." Maybe Silverberg believes all this. Maybe he doesn't. But the book (which is the topic here) does seem to present these ideas as reasonable, so I must weigh the philosophical aspects of the book as well as its technical and literary aspects. While it gets high marks on the latter, I find the former leaves an exceedingly bad taste in my mouth. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 86 21:04:30 GMT From: PUCC.BITNET!6103014@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Search for Sadgeman I am looking for any novels, novellas, short stories etc. about a vampire called Sadgeman. The character was created by Chelsea Quinn Yarbro and I got really fascinated by a filk about him. (Filk by R. Rogow) I have heard the the books are out of print. Is this true? Harold Feld BITNET: 6103014@PUCC UUCP: ...ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET!6103014 ------------------------------ Date: 25 Sep 86 20:13:24 GMT From: jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare) Subject: Re: Search for Sadgeman 6103014@PUCC.BITNET writes: >I am looking for any novels, novellas, short stories etc. about a >vampire called Sadgeman. The character was created by Chelsea >Quinn Yarbaro (sp?) and I got really fascinated by a filk about >him. (Filk by R. Rogow) I have heard the the books are out of >print. -HAROLD FELD The vampire's name is Ragosczy Saint Germaine. The author's name is Chelsea Quinn Yarbro. The books are (in historical, rather than publication, order): Blood Games (ancient Rome), The Path of the Eclipse (China, at the time of Genghis Khan, and India), The Palace (Renaissance Florence), Hotel Transylvania (first published; revolutionary France), and Tempting Fate (pre-WWII Germany). There is also a book of short stories; I do not recall the title. St. G. is based on an actual historical figure who lived at the time of the Hotel Transylvania book and claimed powers similar to those of the fictional character: thousand-year lifespan, knowledge of alchemy, etc. Perhaps he WAS an "enlightened master" (as at least one faith-healer type has insisted) and is still around, reading Quinn's books and chuckling....:-) Jordin Kare jtk@s1-c.ARPA jtk@mordor.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 25 Sep 86 20:12:37 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: St. Germain (was Re: Search for Sadgeman) That's "St. Germain," *not* "Sadgeman." The books are (in the order they were written): 1 Hotel Transylvania 2 The Palace 3 Blood Games 4 Path of the Eclipse 5 Tempting Fate 6 Saint-Germain Chronicles (collection of short stories) At least some of them are in print. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 24 Sep 86 01:27:14 GMT From: mpm@hpfcms.HP.COM ( Mike McCarthy ) Subject: Re: what's the longest series of them all? > ... Face it, how many other series, by one author mind you, can > claim over thirty titles? Dumarest is the only one I can think > of. The Doc Savage books by Kenneth Robeson number well in excess of 100 novels (or novellas, depending on your definition). The last time I checked Bantam was (re)issuing them in paperback, two to a book. I think that "Kenneth Robeson" was a pseudonym for a number of authors contributing stories to some pulp adventure magazine YEARS ago. However, I believe that at least one of the contributing writers provided well over half of the stories. Mike McCarthy {ihnpr, ucbvax, hplabs}!hpfcla!mpm ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 86 08:35:56 GMT From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: Dray Prescot mpm@hpfcms.HP.COM ( Mike McCarthy ) writes: >> ... Face it, how many other series, by one author mind you, can >> claim over thirty titles? Dumarest is the only one I can think >> of. > > The Doc Savage books by Kenneth Robeson number well in excess >of 100 novels (or novellas, depending on your definition). The thing about most series is that they are that -- series. 'Dray Prescot' is interesting because it comes closer to being a single, continuous narrative, rather than a semi-connected series of essentially independent stories. Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 86 12:49:11 edt From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Cristabel Does anyone remember an author named Cristabel (Christine Abrahamsen)? She wrote four novels (that I know of) about fifteen years ago: "Manalacor of Veltakin", "The Cruachan and the Killane", "The Mortal Immortals" and "The Golden Olive". With the exception of "The Golden Olive" they are riveting reads. With the possible exception of "The Mortal Immortals" they are fantasies which the author wrote under the impression that she was writing science fiction. (Unless I'm mistaken, the author never quite gets the distinction between space ships and airplanes straight.) I'm not sure what makes her books so enjoyable. They're not that well written. Perhaps the key is that they are not so much 'Fantasy' as 'fantasy'. They are the author's own daydreams, but although they are constructed almost entirely from the common stock of fantasy components they never descend into cliche. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Sep 86 0829-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #319 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 30 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 319 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Sep 86 21:22:25 GMT From: calgary!radford@caip.rutgers.edu (Radford Neal) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb This is getting more and more ridiculous. I haven't read Farnham's Freehold in years either, but unless my memory is much worse than I think, the book doesn't concern the direct effects of nuclear war AT ALL. You see, once the bomb hits, the protagonists are transported through time to a period hundreds of years after the war ends. Far from his major concern being "protecting his fiefdom from looting", the hero believes for many months that they are the sole survivors. About half the book concerns the events after they are discovered by the post-holocoust society, and is mainly about racial discrimination, not nuclear war. There's about five pages at the end that's slightly more relevant to the direct effects of the war, after the hero and heroine manage to travel back in time to just after the war. All sides in this discussion would do well to actually read the books they talk about, recently enough to remember them. Radford Neal ------------------------------ Date: 17 Sep 86 02:57:30 GMT From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) writes: >"Farnham's Freehold" is hardly a realistic view of the effects of >nuclear war whatsoever. For example, because an all-out nuclear >war would destroy the ozone layer, animals and humans without their >eyes shielded would soon be blinded. Then of course there is the >likelihood of the Nuclear Winter effect. Heinlein could be excused >for not mentioning these since both were just discovered in the >past decade. Okay, my first reaction was "Good CHRIST, Tim, this was written in 1964" -- but at least RAH "could be excused" for not being prescient or omniscient. >But then another effect should have been well-known to Heinlein >which he never bothered to deal with in his paean to "survivalism". >Namely the certainty than any all-out nuclear war would lead to >massive firestorms, leaving those in shelters like "Farnham's >Freehold" to be either cooked alive like those in Dresden, or else >suffocated by the lack of oxygen consumed by such torrential >flames. Just as a young soldier named Vonnegut was suffocated in a cellar in Dresden, then cooked, cutting off a fine writing career before his first publication. Uh, it didn't happen that way in MY universe. >It has been a long time since I read "Farnham's Freehold" but I >also don't recall much discussion of the pernicious effects of >radioactivity- in the region around Chernobyl, a minscule incident >compared to the effects of an all-out nuclear war, they have to >strip off the top inches of thousands of acres of topsoil because >it is excessively radioactive. If you strip off the top inches of >fertile topsoil to avoid radioactivity, the soil left will be >practically useless for growing crops. Nor do I recall Heinlein >talking much at all about radiation sickness, leukemia, cancer, >etc. The nice pleasant land occupied for most of the book was 2000 years -- TWO THOUSAND YEARS -- after the Big War. The war *completely wiped out* Farnham's dominant civilization: culture, religion, the whole balance of the ecology changed. The only records left were some pretty minimal things -- a quote: "There are only two other copies of the *Encyclopedia Britannica in the world today -- and those are not this edition and are in such poor shape that they are curiosities rather than something a scholar can work with...." -- "Ponce" to Hugh Farnham, pg 176 of the Berkeley 1980 printing. There are some extremely pretty gardens in Hiroshima, and it's only been 40 years. >The whole impression I recall from "Farnham's Freehold" was that >nuclear war involved big terrific explosions but if you prepared >your own survivalist holdout for yourself and you alone, that you >could make it. Of course a required part of your survivalist gear >is at least one gun, if not several, so you can shoot the few >surviving humans left and assure your own survival. You really should talk to a therapist about this abnormal obsession with guns. Yes, you can point guns at people -- you can also shoot deer etc with them. The Indians wanted guns not to shoot at the whites with, but because it made hunting so much more efficient. Dramatically, I'm not at all satisfied with the way things went in the first parts of FF -- but having guns in the shelter, given that you are going to try to survive, is the right decision. >I would say that as I recall Heinlein's story in "Farnham's >Freehold" that it more closely resembles Reagan's Undersecretary of >Defense, T.K. Jones statement that "we can survive nuclear war with >enough shovels. Just dig a hole a few feet thick and jump in it." >than any statement by pacifists or even people like Eisenhower or >Khruschev ('the living will envy the dead') I have the book in my hands -- well, on my desk next to me -- and I don't think the text supports that, at least not completely. In any case, FF *does* reflect the state of our understanding in 1964. I was trained as a shelter medic and radiation officer in 1970 and it reflected our understanding of the thing THEN. We've found out about the other stuff (other than firestorms, about which you are simply and provably mistaken) since. So it's not RAH's fault. Look, unless I'm really provoked, I'm not going to reply on this topic again. As it stands, it's pretty clear that I and others have proven by reference to the publications that Heinlein *hates* the idea of atomic war, went to some lengths to get a strong compelling UN Peace Authority instead of the debating society with caviar budgets we have, and then wrote stories and books specifically to point out how awful it might be. (Read "Solution Unsatisfactory" -- in which he points out that a world empire led by the United States would be just as tyrannical, just as evil, as any other. He also points out what the radiation effects on a population would be, come to think of it.) On the other hand, you and the person posting under Tim Maroney's name have used quotes that are BLATANTLY out of context (contradicting the whole meaning of the article from which they are taken, sometimes contradicted by the next *sentence* when the original text is examined) to argue the opposite. You refer to your vague recollections of Farnham's Freehold -- but the vague recollections are not supported by the text. So I want, once more, to repeat what I said a few days ago -- you may not agree with Heinlein, you may want to argue against him -- but it IS NOT FAIR NOR IS IT MORAL to make up things, nor take out of context quotations which do not reflect the author's meaning, nor to use your vague recollections as evidence, especially after others have pointed out using the actual text that you are simply wrong, just to argue that someone is a bad and Evil Person. Joe McCarthy did it, and he was wrong. Adolf Hitler did it, and he was wrong. Jerry Falwell does it all the time, and he is wrong. And as long as you and the other Tim keep doing it, you are equally wrong. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 86 10:53 EDT From: "J. Spencer Love" <JSLove@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb To: whuts!orb@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU Arrrrrgh! I can't stand by flamelessly any longer. Tim Sevener <whuts!orb@caip.rutgers.edu> writes: > I read Farnham's Freehold and it certainly seemed to me to be more > of a paean to "survivalism" than to actions to stop a nuclear war > in the first place. One way to discredit an idea is to take it to its logical conclusion. > His major concern is protecting his survivalist fiefdom from > looting by others who are starving and so forth. Feeding the starving is a luxury. We can talk about feeding the starving because we are so rich that we throw away food. If we only had barely enough food to survive ourselves, we might have to adapt to the realities of a different situation. > "Farnham's Freehold" is hardly a realistic view of the effects of > nuclear war whatsoever. [...He should at least have known that] > the certainty than any all-out nuclear war would lead to massive > firestorms, leaving those in shelters like "Farnham's Freehold" to > be either cooked alive like those in Dresden, or else suffocated > by the lack of oxygen consumed by such torrential flames. My family, perhaps misguidedly, had a bomb shelter constructed in our back yard and connected to our house about 1960. It was a concrete and steel box, with 4 bunks, huge water tanks, a chemical toilet, a corner to be turned in the entrance way to take care of hard radiation which came through the thin steel door, three feet of earth piled on the roof for a radiation shield, an external antenna and above-ground particulate air-filter, a Geiger counter and electroscope, an emergency exit which would involve caving in part of the roof, and a bicycle powered electric generator and hand-generating flashlights (squeeze them and they glow). This shelter was located in suburbia. It could hardly have withstood a direct hit. There wasn't much burnable nearby, just grass overhead and for some distance around, and the air circulation system could be closed off for several hours, so we might have survived a firestorm. (Remember that oxygen depletion is temporary in all non-end-of-life-as-we-know-it situations.) The idea was to live through an attack on New York City about 40 miles away. We planned to wait from two to four weeks for the prompt radiation effects to die down, and then be rescued by Civil Defense. There were no oxygen tanks, no weapons or ammunition, and no real effort to deal with the long term effects of atomic war. I guess my parents weren't survivalists, just scared. This was in days when *total* atomic war wasn't expected. It was just too awful to contemplate. There might be massive strikes on silos, but they were far away. A small number of big warheads would take out the major cities, and then the war would be declared over with a winner and a loser. It may be hard to believe, but this part of the book is true to life. > I also don't recall much discussion of the pernicious effects of > radioactivity- in the region around Chernobyl, a minscule incident > compared to the effects of an all-out nuclear war [...] Nor do I > recall Heinlein talking much at all about radiation sickness, > leukemia, cancer, etc. Farnham didn't have to allow for the effects of radiation. It was dramatically unnecessary since the point of the book was the *long term* effects of nuclear war. Since they were magically transported far into the future, they didn't feel any radiation effects. It's very nice to talk about the expense of the decontamination of the area around Chernobyl. However, when everything is like that, you make the best of it. Decontamination isn't an option. You accept your shortened life span -- without knowing what will eventually do you in. After all, there are no life insurance companies left. > The whole impression I recall from "Farnham's Freehold" was that > nuclear war involved big terrific explosions but if you prepared > your own survivalist holdout for yourself and you alone, that you > could make it. Of course a required part of your survivalist gear > is at least one gun, if not several, so you can shoot the few > surviving humans left and assure your own survival. I.e. > maintain the same idiotic mentality which has placed us in the > current position of facing the imminent extinction of the human > race at any time! Part of the point of the story was that Farnham's initial preparations were grossly inadequate, even though he had been more realistic than many and had taken precautions like having a gun to cope with the complete breakdown in law and order. In the last part of the book, Hugh Farnham and girlfriend can't exist indefinitely on the hoard they accumulate in the last hours before the holocaust. They exist by trading on a basis of mutual need and respect with others like themselves. The guns, minefield, etc. are for "human jackals". It's nice to be idealistic enough to believe that such types don't exist. I haven't had direct experience of them myself. Perhaps they are really just made up. But I read the Boston Globe every day and it worries me. The police department would be blown up with the life insurance companies. Or perhaps it's just their upbringing and people would be basically decent if only they were treated nicely. This may be true but we are not in a position to re-rear the current crop of adults. They will be more desperate than usual after the grocery and liquor stores have disappeared in the firestorms. About the extinction of the human race: any organism that doesn't defend itself will soon become extinct. All life forms, even viruses, have some homeostatic mechanisms which are intended to ensure that at least some members of the species will survive. If you, in a post-holocaust situation, refuse either to defend yourself (as a Freeholder) or to participate in the actions of the (starving) human jackals, then you will be at the mercy of the fates. You may survive, but it will be because you were lucky enough to be missed by the starving or because someone more bloody-minded does your defending for you. In the presence of predators, some species seem to rely mainly on fast reproduction. Humans can't. I am not trying to justify "defensive" systems that would fry the planet if ever used. Guns are not in that category. The author may have been too optimistic. He assumed the clock would only be set back about 150 years by the immediate effects of the war. This may have been entirely the packaging to enable readers to read the book without getting so depressed that they vow never to buy another book by RAH. In terms of society and the long term, thousands of years later they were still at a more savage level than the Roman empire. Here I can only hope he was too pessimistic. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 24 Sep 86 09:46:49-CDT From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: Maroney and Heinlein This is truly mindboggling to me! I am not a Heinlein fan, have only read a couple of his stories, so I have no stakes in whether the man is sane or insane, left or rightwing, whatever. But the quotes Tim Maroney quoted seemed OBVIOUSLY facetious and not intended to represent the author's views. And after seeing the surrounding context from Pie From the Sky, I am ASTOUNDED! Tim Maroney, please answer: 1. Even if "the old Hiroshima treatment" flippancy didn't tip you off to the possibility that the quote was perhaps not intended to be taken seriously, surely now that you have been told the surrounding context, you would admit that the passage was IRONIC not LITERAL? Or do you really think that Heinlein is serious and deadly earnest in wanting to get rid of the old lady with her bowling ball, etc etc? 2. Do you realize that if your argument were valid, YOU would be a supporter of nuclear war? After all, you wrote a passage in which a character supports nuclear war. 3. Do you similarly feel that Mark Twain is racist since some of his characters call blacks niggers? I am seriously asking you these questions, not just being rhetorical. I think I know how most people would answer them, but I am genuinely not sure what you will say to any of the three. Russ ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 24 Sep 1986 10:05:28-PDT From: mcwilliams%fsgg.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Ellen A. Doyle DTN From: 339-5113) Subject: Heinlein gets "Star Wars" award For all of you who are STILL convinced that RAH wants nuclear war, may I inform you that last night the "High Frontier" group at their anniversary dinner (High Frontier is a group supporting SDI research) presented him (actually Jerry Pournelle, Heinlein was too ill to attend) with their writing award. He may be a right-winger, but at least he doesn't feel all-out confrontation is the way to go, as has been implied previously here. Ellen A. Doyle ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Sep 86 0842-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #320 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 30 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 320 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 86 00:11:22 -0100 Subject: Heinlein and Bomb debate First (relatively speaking), Tim Maroney quotes some characters in Farnham's Freehold as a way of "proving Heinlein's support for nuclear war". But David desJardins will have none of it -- "Even if you take this as Heinlein's own opinion, it is vastly different from *supporting* nuclear war." And, of course, David desJardins is right. But what does he win as compensation for the tarnish on Mr. Heinlein's name -- $1,000,000 or $3? The question of Heinlein's own views may not be that important. After all, we're not going to be able to know *for sure* what he thinks no matter he says, in fiction or elsewhere. It might all be an attempt to deceive us; or, if not that, perhaps he just fails to make his true meaning clear. But there are certain views that are promoted, with a fair degree of consistency, in Heinlein's novels. No one has suggested, as far as I know, that his novels are in reality an attack on those positions. And if they were, many of Heinlein's readers would be dismayed, for they find his philosophy (or, if you will, apparent philosophy) a source of inspiration. Other readers, however, tend to find this stuff a bit hard to take. And the novels can certainly be criticized in their own right even if we must reserve judgement on their author. Still, I don't think it's fair to judge all of Heinlein's work by Farnham's Freehold. It's not even fair to judge Farnham's Freehold by one quotation. Does the rest of the novel support Farnham's views on nuclear war, for example, or does it show him to be a fool? But, suppose we do take this one quotation. Does saying "it might be good for us [our country]" amount to "supporting nuclear war"? Well, not quite. So David desJardins wins. But is it "vastly different"? As far as I can tell, Farnham is saying that, in the long view, considering everything, his country will be better off with this war than without it, not because it would get the country out of a depression, or because it would make it a world power in an extremely short time, but because it would tend to kill the stupid, worthless, overbreeding scum and prevent a government that tried to repeal natural law from breeding a nation of slaves. This is a considerably stronger, and I think less acceptable, claim than that made by a historian who said, not that a period Nazi rule was, in the long term, better than not having one, but only that it had a few locally beneficial effects in 30's Germany. Moreover, this historian isn't claiming any beneficial effects for the Nazi campaigns of genocide. By the way, Farnham is wrong too about his "standard genetics". Could he really think that being worthless and having worthless kids is the best way for an individual to survive, in any environment? That such people survive longer than those that are intelligent? Perhaps they make a larger contribution to the future of the species, but that isn't the same thing. Farnham likes a situation in which the breeding scum automatically lose both ways, as individuals and as members of the species, because he thinks that these things are, or ought to be, the same. Except for governments trying to repeal natural law (and if they can't repeal the law why do their attempts matter?), the fittest -- those that survive to have children who survive, &c -- would naturally be the ones with the qualities that he values, because this what "Fittest", with a capital "F" means -- Nature herself values the same things Farnham does; and a nuclear war would just restore the natural order. Unfortunately for this view, we are not a breed that Nature will improve; or, if we are, the traits she wants to develop may not be at all the ones we would pick in her place. Nature values the cockroach as much as the man and perhaps more so, especially after a nuclear war. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Sep 86 01:44:47 GMT From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb I'd like to thank all the people who responded to my messages about Robert Heinlein without personally attacking me, whether by calling me a Communist, claiming that I am constitutionally incapable of perceiving "subtleties", accusing me of intellectual dishonesty, or any of the other charming epithets that have been hurled at me during this eminently sensible and level-headed little discussion. No names come to mind, but I'm sure there must have been at least one such message. Naturally, it is impossible to respond individually to each of the flames, er, responses, since they total over 20,000 words, enough for a short novel in themselves. However, only a few points were raised that are worth examining. The responses which have any point at all are divided into two categories. First, there are people who agree with Hugh Farnham, though they attempt to downplay the significance of his comments. That is, they say that it would indeed be somewhat good to see the race culled of useless people by nuclear war, but that *overall* Farnham didn't say it would be a good thing. Second, there are those who claim that Farnham's statements did not in fact reflect Heinlein's views at all: that they were meant to be appalling and were given the lie by the plot of the book. The second camp is at least worthy of discussion. The first, however, is beneath contempt. This view does not "approach" Nazism; it is not "like" Nazism; it *is* Nazism, and those who propound it are of the same breed as the race-purgers of Berlin. Strong words, but frankly, I can't think of any words strong enough for someone who would think of the death of millions of "useless people" as a good thing. Enough said. Before moving on to the second camp, let me lay bare my soul and admit that in fact I have not read this particular book. I have, however, read somewhere between twenty-five and thirty other books of Heinlein's, and have twenty on my shelves. I am, in short, extremely familiar with his fiction and his style, which has remained oddly consistent for some four decades. A number of people have written saying that unless I read every single book he has ever written, including lengthy collections of essays, and track down obscure newspaper clippings about his life (I'm not kidding, someone really said this) - unless, in short, I make the main study of my life the fulsome wisdom of Robert A. Heinlein, then I have no right to comment on any of his apparent opinions, since there are bound to be perspectives I have not encountered. Frankly, even when I was a pre- adolescent I was never *that* fond of him! I would think some twenty-five books would suffice to qualify me as fairly knowledgable concerning his views and his ways of expressing them; but it seems that only a RAH cultist may have the temerity to question the Master - and of course, no cultist ever would. (This is a double-bind familiar from religious debates.) So why did I accept the apparent message of a lengthy quotation from a book I had not read? There are two main reasons. First, Heinlein lectures the reader in every novel, and in most of his short stories. These lectures are always presented in a very one-sided fashion, with a clear authorial voice, and are never contradicted by later events. Farnham's little propaganda spiel was of a type that was very familiar to me from my previous readings of Heinlein. If in fact Farnham's lecture *was* contradicted, which I am not yet prepared to concede, it must be the only one which ever was in all of Heinlein's fiction. This is a possibility, but I must say that it seems rather unlikely. Second, again from my readings of Heinlein, his right-wing militarism was well known to me. Heinlein has never attempted to disguise the fact that he considers the noblest human endeavour (except possibly sex) to be picking up a weapon and joining with like-minded men to kill the enemy, whether subhuman "bugs" or Earthbound officials. I doubt that even the most adoring of Heinlein groupies would deny this. His blissful vision of the wonders of organized violence would seem quite compatible with a vision of the purging of the world through ultimate violence. Now on to those who say that Heinlein contradicted Farnham's speech by showing a horrific post-war future. I can only say that, given the prevalence of those who have agreed with Farnham, he must have done an exceptionally poor job of it! No, no, I lie; I can say other things as well. My understanding of the plot is that a nuclear detonation - gosh wow boy oh boy oh boy - actually knocks them clean into the far future! The key phrase here is "FAR future". From what I have heard, the future is quite remote, roughly on the order of the distant future in "By His Bootstraps". This would suggest that the historical connection is somewhat remote, if Heinlein meant any at all. For instance, aren't the blacks non-Negroid, suggesting vast spans of time must have passed, at least thousands of years? Farnham never said the war would save the world forever, only that it would be good for the country. Even the Nazis only expected to rule for a thousand years, after all. This view will be easy enough to contradict if it is wrong. Just quote the passages, which I would expect to be of comparable length to my quote, in which Farnham realizes how terrible his previous positions had been, and how this hideous world was the actual result of the nuclear war his generation underwent. As I've said previously, if such a quote exists it will be unique in all of Heinlein's fiction, but that does not make it impossible that it exists. Now on to greener pastures, the miscellaneous points. Some have tried to downplay the significance of Farnham's speech by pointing out that he begins with conditionals: it might be good for the country, this could be the turning point, etc. But whenever anyone says such a horrible thing, they always try to soften it somehow. When someone says "I don't mean to sound callous, but..." you can be very sure the person is about to say something very callous indeed. One of the most common and simple propaganda techniques is to start off with a somewhat equivocal argument to draw in the uncommitted, passionately argue in favor of one's conclusions while always blunting their direct statement with a conditional, building in intensity and finally dropping all pretense at equivocation. This is exactly the course of Farnham's speech, a rather well-constructed piece of propaganda whose efficacy is demonstrated by the people who have stated agreement with it here. Is Heinlein a fascist? I have been called on to defend my assertion that he is. Now, frankly, I don't remember calling him a fascist, and I usually avoid the word, because it has been so overused that it is about as meaningful as "cocksucker". Nonetheless, I do think that the word in its classical sense does apply to Heinlein. The word "fascism" comes from the Latin word "fasces", an official symbol of the Roman government. It was a bundle of twigs bound together, the idea being that any by itself could easily be snapped, but that if they were bound together, you could clune people on the head with them for days. Well, more or less like that. Anyway, the identity of fascism with militarism should be obvious from this root symbolism: an army is just such a bunch of fasces, and extolling it as an exalted and noble thing, rather than a necessary evil, is fascism. A few people have claimed that part of the "Heinlein ethic" places great value on the individual. As an anarchist, I don't think so. In Heinlein's fiction, the vast majority of people are always portrayed as beyond any hope, terminally stupid, and in general cattle that we would all be much better off without. (Another reason I am willing to think that Heinlein has entertained the notion that killing off most of the race and sparing the soldiers would be a lovely thing....) The protagonists are always far above the rest of humanity by their very nature. This is no more a genuine committment to individual liberties than Neitzsche's ostensible support for the individual while scoffing at the idea of personal rights. If this is support for the individual, then so is "Lord of the Swastika", Spinrad's novel written by Adolph Hitler (packaged as "The Iron Dream") to show how many science fiction writers are frustrated Hitlers. Feric Jaggar could easily be a Heinlein hero.... This sort of "rugged individualism" was a mainstay of extremist right-wing sentiment in the 1940's and 1950's (come to think of it, these people were also survivalists...) It was coupled with a willingness to jail dissenters and a hatred for a free press. I don't find it any more convincing now. Do I worship Michael Moorcock? Let's not be silly, folks. The first time I mentioned his essay "Starship Stormtroopers", I took care to point out a significant disagreement between us. If you want, I'll point out some other flaws I see in his politics and in his style, though I don't think it's germane to this discussion. This is just a very clumsy attempt to turn around my charges of Heinlein-worship, despite the obvious facts to the contrary. Here's a challenge: Find anywhere in the many paeans recently sung to the great god RAH a single statement of disagreement. Good luck! "Pie from the Sky". The quote from "Ghastly Beyond Belief" does appear to have been out of context. However, this does not make everything cut and dried in favor of Heinlein. I'll grant that "Pie from the Sky" is somewhat anti-nuclear, and for the purposes of argument only I'll grant the same to "Farnham's Freehold". Now imagine that there were some writer who wrote essays and novels explaining that, even though it does seem like a lot of the world's problems would be solved by putting all the blacks and orientals in gas chambers, in fact this would have somewhat negative effects in addition to the obvious benefits. I think it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that this writer was a racist and an unethical bastard, despite the correctness of his final conclusions. Applying the same principle to Heinlein's explanations that, despite appearances, just nuking the planet might not be all good, it seems reasonable to assume that he is rather misanthropic and unprincipled. There are reasons other than a desire to maintain indoor plumbing and to avoid foraging for food that make the "nuclear alternative" manifestly unacceptable: little things like respect for all life and every human being, which for some reason have evaded Heinlein's attention. To put this more directly, why does Heinlein return to refuting this obviously appalling argument unless he finds it personally compelling? It seems like praising with faint damns at best. I'd like to thank Tim Sevener for his messages, which I largely agree with. There is one point of disagreement worth mentioning. Tim cited "Stranger in a Strange Land" as a possible exception to Heinlein's normally right-wing ideology. As this Fall's "Whole Earth Review" points out, though, mysticism has always had more adherents from the right than from the left. Heinlein's all-talk-and-no-action shallow utopianism is a fine example of the sort of mysticism preferred by the right wing. I should point out that I'm a mystic myself, but that doesn't mean I'm unaware of the history of the thing. I don't expect to convince any Heinlein fan of anything bad about Heinlein, any more than my infamous essay "Even If I Did Believe" has ever convinced a Bible believer of the evil of Yahweh. I just enjoy pointing out the truths that most people would rather leave unsaid. Go right on idolizing him, and Hemingway and other great American sissies (as Gore Vidal put it) as well. It's a somewhat free country.... Tim Maroney {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Sep 86 0856-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #321 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 30 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 321 Today's Topics: Books - Ellison & Kay & Silverberg & Zelazny & Star Trek Novels (3 msgs) & Story Search & Author Lists ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu 25 Sep 86 14:34:31-EDT From: eric(wccs.e-simon%weslyn@weslyan.bitnet) Subject: harlan and isaac Regarding the further discussion of the egos of Isaac Asimov and Harlan Ellision, I thought y'all would find this passage interesting. It is taken from _Dangerous Visions #1_ which has comments from both men. The passage describes the first time these two gentlemen met; perhaps the greatest meeting of egos since the time Asimov dined alone. Foreward 2 - Harlan and I by Isaac Asimov This book is Harlan Ellison. It is Ellison-drenched and Ellsion-permeated. I admit that thirty-two other authors (including myself in a way) have contributed, but Harlan's introduction and his thirty-two prefaces surround the stories and embrace them and soak them through with the rich flavor of his personality. So it is only fitting that I tell the story of how I came to meet Harlan. The scene is a World Science Fiction Convention a little over a decade ago. I had just arrived at the hotel and I made for the bar at once. I don't drink, but I knew that the bar would be where everybody was. They were indeed all there, so I yelled a greeting and everyone yelled back at me. Among them, however, was a youngster I had never seen before: a little fellow with sharp features and the livest eyes I ever saw. Those live eyes were now focused on me with something that I can only describe as worship. He said, "Are you Isaac Asimov?" And in his voice was awe and wonder and amazement. I was rather pleased, but I struggled hard to retain a modest demeanor. "Yes, I am," I said. "You're not kidding? You`re *really* Isaac Asimov?" The words have not yet been invented that would describe the ardor and reverence with which his tongue caressed the syllables of my name. I felt as though the least I could do would be to rest my hand upon his head and bless him, but I controlled myself. "Yes, I am," I said, and by now my smile was a fatuous thing, nauseating to behold. "*Really*, I am." "Well, I think you're --" he began, still in the same tone of voice, and for a split second he paused, while I listened and the audience help its breath. The youngster's face shifted in that split second into an expression of utter contempt and he finished the sentence with supreme indiference, "-- a *nothing*!" The effect, for me, was that of tumbling over a cliff I had not known was there, and landing flat on my back. I could only blink foolishly while everyone present roared with laughter. The youngster was Harlan Ellison, you see, and I had never met him before and didn't know his utter irreverence. But everyone else there knew him and they had waited for innocent me to be neatly poniarded - and I had been. By the time I struggled back to something like equilibrium, it was long past time for any possible retort. I could only carry on as best as I might, limping and bleeding , and grieving that I had been hit when I wasn't looking and that not a man in the room had had the self-denial to warn me and give up the delight of watching me get mine. Fortunatley, I believe in forgiveness, and I made up my mind to forgive Harlan completely - just as soon as I had paid him back with interest. Now you must understand that Harlan is a giant among men in courage, pugnacity, loquacity, wit, charm, intelligence - indeed, in everything but height. He is not actually extremely tall. In fact, not to put too fine a point on it, he is quite short; shorter, even, than Napoleon. And instinct told me, as I struggled up from disaster, that this young man, who was not introduced to me as the well-known fan, Harlan Ellison, was a trifle sensitive on that subject. I made a mental note of that. The next day at this convention I was on the platform, introducing notables and addressing a word of kindly love to each as I did so. I kept my eye on Harlan all this time, however, for he was sitting right up front (where else?). As soon as his attention wandered, I called out his name suddenly. He stood up, quite surprised and totally unprepared, and I leaned forward and said, as sweetly as I could: "Harlan, stand on the fellow next to you, so that people can see you." And while the audience (a much larger one this time) laughed fiendishly, I forgave Harland and we have been good friends ever since. Isaac Asimov February 1967 I just though that was funny. Take care, Eric J. Simon wccs.e-simon%weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 26 September 1986, 10:07:30 EDT From: "Brent T. Hailpern" <BTH@ibm.com> Subject: The Wandering Fire (NO spoiler) I just finished reading _The Wandering Fire_ by Guy Gavriel Kay and published by Arbor House. TWF is the second book in the "Finovar Tapestry". The first book was _The Summer Tree_. The basic plot is some Earth graduate students are induced to help out in the war between good and evil in Finovar - the "first" world (in the same sense that Amber is the real world in Zelazny's series). The first book (TST) was very enjoyable - especially the concept of the Summer Tree (which I will not even attempt to describe and ruin for those who have not read it). TWF takes up about 6 months after the end of TST. Evil has caused winter to last well into summer and our heroes try along with the good guys to lift winter and get the final battle against evil under way. If you like fantasy, _The Summer Tree_ is well worth reading and probably worth buying. Unfortunately, _The Wandering Fire_ is not nearly as good. Solutions to problems come out of thin air and there is no new character development. "Wild magic" (similar to the same term in the Thomas Covenant series) is thrown in for effect, but seems to have no consistent basis in the story. My overall impression is that the author is eager to do the last book, which I assume is on the battle with evil, and needed to bring in a couple new factors (the Warrior, the Child, and the one who must make the choice between good and evil). ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 86 23:10:34 GMT From: dciem!msb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Brader) Subject: Re: TOM O'BEDLAM by Robert Silverberg (SPOILER) > I like Silverberg's novels; I really do. But this one is so > exasperating, so annoying, ... I like Silverberg's novels too, though I haven't read his very thick ones of recent years, and I like Evelyn Leeper's review. But I disliked TOM O'BEDLAM for reason quite different from hers. > So what do I find so exasperating? Not Silverberg's writing > style-- that is as good as ever. ... Not for me. To me it felt as if this was a novel of 2/3 its actual length that had been padded out to the length currently considered desirable by publishers. I would have made massive cuts in the first half of the book. > ... It's the message that drives me up the wall. ... [Tom's] > visions, and those of the newly born tumbonde' sect, and those of > the patients in an exclusive mental institution near Mendocino all > point toward an apocalyptic transition for the human race. This > vision is best expressed by one of the converts to tumbonde': "The > gate will open; the great ones will come among us and make things > better for us ..." That is what happens in the story... > ... My objection ... is that Silverberg seems to be saying that we > needn't do anything to improve things here on earth--powerful > alien beings will show up to solve all our problems. But I don't think that that's the message. > ... Tom, because of his mutation, is a critical nexus in the > Crossing. And while some people are eager to "cross" and become > the wards of these super-beings, others are not. And how does Tom > feel about sending these, in effect killing them on Earth to send > their souls elsewhere? "It wasn't a killing anymore than the > other killings were. ... I didn't kill you ... I did you the > biggest favor of your life." So also said the Inquisition as it > lit the auto da fe'. Good parallel. Because there are two other interpretations of Tom's talent that are possible. He could simply be broadcasting *delusions*. When he *think* he is sending someone to another world, he is killing them. This is why some characters are reluctant to be sent! However, they get sent anyway, willy-nilly. It's also possible that he is right about the other worlds existing -- there is evidence presented that they do, but some choose to see it as another form of broadcast delusion -- but that, as the one most suited to receive and project the visions, he has gone mad and, again, thinks he can send people there when he is really killing them. The book carefully *does not show* that anyone arrives at the other worlds. Neither does it say that they do not arrive there. The last chapter ends with Tom, feeling his power growing with practice, starting to send them in greater and greater numbers while the bodies pile up around him. There is no scene on another world. Is he really transporting souls, or are the skeptics right? The other worlds of the book are much like Heaven. Some people think they know that it exists and how to get there, and they go to great time and effort to convince others to share their faith, but the issue will never be decided by physical proof here on Earth. But some people will always believe. Are they wrong if, like the Inquisition, like Tom O'Bedlam, they act according to this belief? I think the book is capable of being read as either a statement for or against faith and religion, depending one which characters one identifies with. I suspect that it was simply intended to make us *think* about faith. Because it is also saying that, right or wrong, *believers* will always be with us. Mark Brader ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 86 15:57:56 GMT From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Amber I finally got a copy of Blood of Amber. It's GREAT! I haven't finished it yet, (woman lying next to me jabs me in the ribs: "Turn out the light, for chrissakes!") so I don't want to talk about it and encourage spoilers. However, I'd like to know if anyone out there would like to discuss the first series. Specifically, I have a couple of questions: ***SPOILERS FOLLOW of the first five Amber books and a minor spoiler of Trumps of Doom*** We find out somewhere in, I think The Hand of Oberon that King Oberon is from the Courts of Chaos, and Dworkin the mad artist is Oberon's father, Corwin's grandfather. I think it is established that Chaos lords have very limited abilities to travel in shadow, and must either use constructs like the Black Road, or follow an Amberite through shadow. (Which apparently anyone can do.) However, the Chaos lords have other powers, like shape shifting and conjuring. We find out in Sign of the Unicorn that Amber was created by Oberon by enscribing the Pattern. Elsewhere it is stated that the Courts are clear across the other side of existence from Amber, and represents the farthest an Amberite can travel in shadow. If the Chaos lords have only limited travel in shadow, how did Oberon originally travel away from the Courts to enscribe the Pattern? In all the Amber books, it's made clear that one can only travel freely in shadow by walking the Pattern. This brings up a chicken-and-egg question. Second question. Dworkin and Oberon are shape-shifters, and apparently anyone from the Courts also have this talent. Why then don't any of the children of Oberon have this ability? Does walking the pattern do gene damage? :-) Thirdly, there seems to be some kind of tie between Oberon and the Unicorn. Anyone want to speculate? Beastiality? One of the things I like most about Zelazny's writing is that he doesn't explain anything, he just tells the story and leaves it to you to figure out what's going on. This makes the story move right along and makes the reader pay attention. Piers Anthony could take a couple of lessons from him. The Blue Adept stories were OK, but I rapidly tired of having the plot spoon-fed to me. Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: 20 Sep 86 22:58:53 GMT From: hpcnoe!jason@caip.rutgers.edu (Jason Zions) Subject: Re: Enterprise: The First Adventure > *sigh* Why can't Pocket publish more good fannish-style novels, > like Crisis on Centaurus? Ouch, say it isn't so. I liked the background part of *Crisis on Centaurus*, but the plot of the book sucked eggs. Yuck! I hope the fannish press is capable of writing better than that! Some very interesting character development happens in Crisis, but a lot of it tampers with the way things are for characters in the tv series. Events happen in the tv episodes to which the characters react in a particular way; if their background actually was as described in this book, their reactions would almost certainly be different. Now, for a *good* ST novel, try "The Wounded Sky" or "Uhura's Song"... Jason Zions Hewlett-Packard Colorado Networks Division 3404 E. Harmony Road Mail Stop 102 Ft. Collins, CO 80525 {ihnp4,seismo,hplabs,gatech}!hpfcdc!hpcnoe!jason ------------------------------ Date: 23 Sep 86 14:54:49 GMT From: spp2!urban@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Urban) Subject: Re: Enterprise: The First Adventure jason@hpcnoe.UUCP (Jason Zions) writes: >Now, for a *good* ST novel, try "The Wounded Sky" or "Uhura's >Song"... Hint: Before reading "The Wounded Sky", read C.S. Lewis's "Chronicles of Narnia", and especially "Voyage of the Dawn Treader". It's evident that Diane Duane did. Mike Urban trwrb!trwspp!spp2!urban ------------------------------ Date: 27 Sep 86 22:24:52 GMT From: c160-dq@zooey.Berkeley.EDU (Kathy Li) Subject: Re: Enterprise: The First Adventure urban@spp2.UUCP (Mike Urban) writes: >Hint: Before reading "The Wounded Sky", read C.S. Lewis's >"Chronicles of Narnia", and especially "Voyage of the Dawn >Treader". It's evident that Diane Duane did. Don't forget Douglas Adams Hitchhiker's Guide. "I always knew there was something fundamentally wrong with the universe." Kathy Li ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 86 03:12:59 GMT From: starfire!ddb@caip.rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet) Subject: Re: Story Searches From: jmturn%ringwld.UUCP@CCA.CCA.COM > Some specific scenes: A large ship with a very large model of the > galaxy that the hero could light up is described in great detail. > There are many space battles with englobments and such. At one > point, our hero impresses a bunch of local on a planet by riding > down his spaceship ramp apon a horse. It is Assuming that the original memories are correct and complete, it isn't Doc Smith's Lensman series, despite the large tactical display tanks and frequent use of englobement in battles. The horse definitely doesn't occur in Doc Smith. Other than that it's very close. As a fan of Doc Smith, I'll be looking forward eagerly to the resolution of this search -- I think I want to read it. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 86 07:32:38 GMT From: chinet!magik@caip.rutgers.edu (Ben Liberman) Subject: Re: author lists jml@cs.strath.ac.uk (Joseph McLean) writes: >cjhoward@watnot.UUCP (Caleb J. Howard) writes: >>My question is this: Is there some place to get ahold of complete >>lists of specific authors' material? >I'm also interested in obtaining a complete listing of publications >on The last time that I was in Minneapolis at Uncle Hugos, I saw a book that lists by author, by pub. date, most everything that I have ever seen in science fiction (and much fantasy). I don't recall the title, etc. Could someone out there (I'm in Chicago) take note of it the next time they are in the store, and post it here? Thanks. Ben Liberman ihnp4!chinet!magik ihnp4!homebru!magik ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Sep 86 0921-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #322 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 30 Sep 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 322 Today's Topics: Television - Star Trek (4 msgs) & The Prisoner (5 msgs) & More Marionation (2 msgs) & Title Request (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Sep 86 13:51:00 GMT From: hoqam!bicker@caip.rutgers.edu (KOHN) Subject: Re: Star Trek's Century. From: Silas_Snake <CCU1693%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk> > I always understood that in the FORMAT of ST, it was specifically > set in the 23rd century (still roughly consistent with the Space > Seed lines) but the two hundred year imprisonment line is backed > up in another episode. When the Enterprise crew meets Abraham > Lincoln, I believe Scotty refers to the fact the he died "over > three hundred years ago!" This, of course also places it in the > 22nd Century. Did anyone ever consider the expanse of time between the movie which opened with "In the 23rd Century" and the series? Space Seed ocurred in the end of the 22nd Century and the movies some 5 or 10 years later. Or does something else contradict that? ------------------------------ Date: Sat 27 Sep 86 21:36:03-CDT From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: Re: Timeframe of Star Trek Just saw the episode where the Air Force officer threatens to lock up Kirk for 200 years, which "ought to be about long enough". This seems fairly persuasive for the argument that ST is set 200 years from now. Then I became totally convinced from just seeing the Khan episode with Ricardo Montalban; it is very explicitly and unambiguously stated that Khan's ship had left earth during the "eugenic wars" in the 1990's, and that they used cold sleep due to primitive drive technology requiring long travel times, but by 2019 they had fast drives (presumably meaning faster than light) (And by the way, "Aliens" clearly takes place after 2019, so they must have had FTL :-) Anyway, Khan was asleep for 200 years, so unless Spock & Kirk were mistaken in their history, ST must be 200 years from now. (Unless the scriptwriters screwed up :-) Russ ------------------------------ Date: 27 Sep 86 14:21:33 GMT From: phri!lewando@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Lewandoski) Subject: Re: Star Trek's Century. Last night I saw an episode... cant remember the name, but its the one where the Enterprise and characters are held captive by an all-powerful madman (on, I think the planet Gideon...) who wants everyone to play act for him, Earthstyle circa 1800 ( or 1900 ??). Remeber this one? At the end he turns out to be a little boy of all all-powerful parents who set things right "If you cant keep good care of your pets then you can't keep them"... ANYWAY...he professes to be a student of Earth but seems to not realize that the Earth he's been observing (thru, it is implied some all powerful light telescope) is Earth of the 1800 (or 1900s I can't remember) ...ANYWAY... Kirk says "the Earth you,ve been studying is 900 years in our past" SO this means ST is in the 28th ( or 29th) century. Nothing like consitency. Mark L ------------------------------ From: Eyal mozes <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 86 21:32:13 -0200 Subject: Re: "Live Long and Prosper" sign origin Cc: Lynn%PANDA@sumex-aim.stanford.edu > To be exact, the sign represents the letter "shin" in the Hebrew > alphabet. Shin is the first letter in the word "Shalom" (Peace), > and the shin sign is used during High Holy Day (Rosh Hashanah, Yom > Kippur) services. Slight correction: the sign doesn't come from "Shalom", but from "Shaday", an archaic Hebrew word for God. By the way, I noticed a few scenes in which Kirk and McCoy try to make the sign, and aren't very succesful. Does anybody know why? Eyal Mozes BITNET: eyal@wisdom CSNET and ARPA: eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA UUCP: ...!ihnp4!talcott!WISDOM!eyal ------------------------------ Date: 24 September 1986 11:45:54 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson Subject: Questioning "The Prisoner" Recently a local station has started showing "The Prisoner" late at night (up against "Doctor Who"). I've only seen two episodes, and I have some questions: 1) Who exactly is Number 6? 2) What agency did he resign from? Why did he resign? 3) What exactly is the Village? Why is he being kept there? 4) What is the significance of the opening scene in which a balloon rises from the water and a voice says, "I am not a number--I am a free man!" 5) Does he ever escape? Carlo Samson U09862@uicvm ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 86 15:08:47 GMT From: gitpyr!ccastkv@caip.rutgers.edu (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti) Subject: Re: Questioning "The Prisoner" (* SPOILERS *) From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson >1) Who exactly is Number 6? His real identity is never revealed. At the end of the series, though, there was a hint that he might be Number 1. >2) What agency did he resign from? Why did he resign? The agency was never revealed. Since his headquarters were in London I've always assumed it to be MI-5 (or is it MI-6, I can never remember). They never revealed why he resigned. >3) What exactly is the Village? Why is he being kept there? The true purpose of the Village was never revealed though I feel it safe to say that most of its inhabitants were probably prisoners like Number 6. Number 6 was being held there because they wanted to know why he resigned. >4) What is the significance of the opening scene in which a balloon > rises from the water and a voice says, "I am not a number--I am > a free man!" Well, the balloon is Rover. Some sort of creature or robot that was used to capture people attempting to escape. Its usual tactic was to jump on top of them and envelope their faces so that they couldn't breath and would pass out. The voice over is a conversation between Number 2 and Number 6 when Number 6 first arrrives in the Village. At the time Number 6 is voicing his defiance at being reduced to nothing but a number and is asserting his own individuality. >5) Does he ever escape? Yes. The final episode was a two parter in which Number 6 escapes with several inmates who played major roles in past episodes and who symbolize various facets of his personality. They get away in a truck driven by the Butler. After dropping the others off at various places Number 6 and the Butler drive to a house and they go in. As the door closes we see that the house is number 1. Instead of the normal close, with bars slamming in front of Number 6's face we see a series of shots very reminiscent of the opening credits. Keith Vaglienti Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastkv ------------------------------ Date: 27 Sep 86 00:40:58 GMT From: epimass!jbuck@caip.rutgers.edu (Joe Buck) Subject: Re: Questioning "The Prisoner" From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson >1) Who exactly is Number 6? >2) What agency did he resign from? Why did he resign? >3) What exactly is the Village? Why is he being kept there? >4) What is the significance of the opening scene in which a balloon > rises from the water and a voice says, "I am not a number--I am > a free man!" >5) Does he ever escape? "That would be telling". The whole point of watching the show is to determine what it means. Is it a dream? Is it reality? As you watch each show you learn more. The group of "Prisoner" fans that believe the whole thing is a dream is called the "comma faction". Why? "I am number two". "Who is number one?" "You are [,] number six." ^ ? Joe Buck {hplabs,fortune}!oliveb!epimass!jbuck nsc!csi!epimass!jbuck Entropic Processing, Inc., Cupertino, California ------------------------------ Date: 27 Sep 86 07:02:51 GMT From: csustan!cjo@caip.rutgers.edu (chris ohlsen) Subject: Re: Re: Questioning "The Prisoner" (* SPOILERS *) ccastkv@gitpyr.UUCP (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti) writes: >U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes: >>3) What exactly is the Village? Why is he being kept there? >The true purpose of the Village was never revealed though I feel it >safe to say that most of its inhabitants were probably prisoners >like Number 6. Number 6 was being held there because they wanted >to know why he resigned. My own personal (no flames please) ideas on this are that the Village is a place where old retired spys like #6, go when they wish to drop out of the "game." Not all the people there are people in this case, some may just be companions for those "prisoners." Any people who "knew too much", or were too high level to retire were sent to the village. I would assume that most accepted this fate better the #6, but as is obvious, many wish to escape from the village as well. Mind you these are my own opinions, I was not an avid fan of the show. Please feel free to discuss this further, but please no flames! ------------------------------ Date: 27 Sep 86 22:41:33 GMT From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton) Subject: Prisoner Trivia Quiz I won't answer Carlo Samson's questions now, that would spoil some of this quiz. Be warned that the answers sort of spoil the show. 1. "Where am I?" "In the Village." [5 pts] Where was the Village? There are three answers given in the show, but only one has hard evidence. [2 pts] Where was the actual set of the Village? 2. "What do you want?" "Information" [1 pt] Exactly what information did they want? [6 pts] And what is the correct answer to their question. (This one is open to interpretation) 3. "You won't get it! "By hook or by crook, we will" [2 pts] In what episode did they come closest to getting it?" 4. "Whose side are you on?" "That would be telling." [4 pts] Whose side were they on? 5. "Who are you?" "The new number 2." [2 pts] Which actor had more than one stint as number 2? [4 pts] Which actor to play #2 appeared in the most episodes? [3 pts] Which actor played a character with no number? 6. "Who is number 1?" [3 pts] Who was number 1? There is a clue hidden in this quiz. 7. "You are number 6." [4 pts] What other numbers did the Prisoner have during his stay? [3 pts] What was the Prisoner's real name? 8. "I am not a number, I am a free man!" [6 pts] When was the Prisoner's real name used to address him during the series? Mail your answers to watmath!looking!brad. My judging will be arbitrary. Brad Templeton Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: Tue 23 Sep 86 10:50:43-PDT From: Haruka Takano <Takano%HP-THOR@hplabs.HP.COM> Subject: does anyone remember... I recall watching two shows using marionettes that no one has mentioned: Super Car - The only thing I remember is that this "car" could fly and go under water, but it had no wheels (and I remember wondering why they called it a car). Captain Scarlet - This one had a flying fortress, with three female fighter pilots named Rhapsody, Harmony, and Melody. All of the officers were named after colors (Capt. Green, Col. White, etc.), and the organization was called either Spectra or Spectrum or something along those lines. Their main antagonist was a race of aliens who took control of humans to do their deeds (the race may have been called the Mysterions, but I may be confusing that with another series). Anyone remember these? I think I saw them in the early 60's in Indiana. I remember having the impression that Captain Scarlet was a British series. I think I saw Super Car in English, but I may have seen it in Japan before my family moved to the US. Haruka Takano Takano@HPLABS.HP.COM ------------------------------ Date: 25 Sep 86 16:50:06 GMT From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: does anyone remember... From: Haruka Takano <Takano%HP-THOR@hplabs.HP.COM> > Captain Scarlet - This one had a flying fortress, with three female > fighter pilots named Rhapsody, Harmony, and Melody. All of the > officers were named after colors (Capt. Green, Col. White, > etc.), and the organization was called either Spectra or > Spectrum or something along those lines. Their main antagonist > was a race of aliens who took control of humans to do their > deeds (the race may have been called the Mysterions, but I may > be confusing that with another series). Yup, saw it in England, early 70's I think. The series was actually called "Captain Scarlet and The Mysterons", or that's how I remember it at least. The airplanes were great and you used to be able to get pictures of them in packets of bubblegum (yech); the Mysterons would manifest themselves as patches of light floating about Spectrum's control room during the title sequence and that's all I remember of them. Then there was the signature tune... Does anyone here remember Joe Ninety, another superanithingy series? As I remember, it came out at about the same time as Captain Scarlet; a geek in glasses who would deal with international spy rings. There was also this big spinning metal cage ... Tim Abbott {allegra,ihnp4}!{noao,ut-sally}!utastro!tmca tmca@astro.UTEXAS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 24 Sep 86 18:05:59 GMT From: grc97!hurst@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Hurst) Subject: old SF TV movies Does anybody remember a movie which played on television about a futuristic city built beneath the ocean? The plot revolved around a giant planetoid which was going to strike the earth, directly on top of this city. There was a character who had been (genetically, surgically) altered so that he could breath water. This show also had what I think is the first appearance of the flying submarine, a la Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea. I think the movie was called "City Beneath the Sea", but I'm not sure. Does anybody know if this is available on video? David Hurst, KSC Gould Research Center email: ...ihnp4!grc97!hurst phone: (312) 640-2044 ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 86 20:35:13 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: old SF TV movies I remember the movie, but not well. It was based (if it wasn't based, parts of it were stolen) on a James Blish story (Torrent of Faces sounds familiar, but I'm not sure if that's correct or not). david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 86 23:24:32 GMT From: ism780c!geoff@caip.rutgers.edu (Geoff Kimbrough) Subject: Re: old SF TV movies hurst@grc97.UUCP (Dave Hurst) writes: >Does anybody remember a movie which played on television about a >futuristic city built beneath the ocean? The plot revolved around a >giant planetoid which was going to strike the earth, directly on >top of this city. There was a character who had been (genetically, >surgically) altered so that he could breath water. Hmm, there was a mercifully short-lived series called "Man from Atlantis" which fits this bill. Maybe that's what you're thinking of. (No doubt there was a pilot, later shown as a "TV Movie".) >This show also had what I think is the first appearance of the >flying submarine, a la Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea. *If* my above surmize is correct, it would have been the *2nd* (at least) appearance. VttBotS ran about a decade earlier, I think. (unless the pilot was *much* older than the show.) Anyway, I doubt it's available on video, but stranger things have happened. Geoffrey Kimbrough INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation, Santa Monica California ihnp4!ima!geoff || sdcrdcf!ism780c!geoff || ucla-cs!ism780!geoff ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Sep 86 0935-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #323 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 1 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 323 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Impossibilities (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Sep 86 10:25:49 edt From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence Raphael Brothers) Subject: impossibility and implausibility It is obviously true that nothing can be validly declared impossible. Even logical contradictions are only invalid within the logical framework that they are stated in. As for scientific theories, well they are constantly being updated. reorganized, etc. perhaps not so drastically as Einstein's various theories reorganized Newton's "Laws", but in the same manner of speaking. **HOWEVER** There are certain sorts of phenomena which would require essentially scrapping most of modern physics to accept, something which Relativity and the Lorenz-Fitzgerald equations did NOT do to Newton -- they just showed Newton's equations to be a degenerate case.... Examples of these effects are time-travel, ftl travel (if you allow one, you allow the other), action-at-a-distance (ie psi phenomena), and many of the other sf concepts we hold near and dear. I would suggest that no sf book which has these elements should really be considered "hard" sf, since the introduction of any one really screws up modern physics to the extent that any of the others is reasonable, or even likely. Like a book that had ftl travel would be justified in having magic, or any other weird effects since given such a lapse, anything is really possible. Of course too much weirdness would completely destroy the suspension of disbelief, but that is only because, deep-down, most of these concepts like ftl etc. seem intuitively reasonable. Either they shouldn't, really, or science is inherently counter-intuitive. Or .... ftl, etc. really is the case and modern theories are just wrong. Now I am not advocating the removal of all these wonderful and fantastic elements from sf -- after all, ftl is what space-opera is all about, just for one thing. But authors and readers should be aware just what the ramifications of positing such wide-reaching changes to current scientific thought are. And naturally, it is my opinion that authors should strive to avoid such innovations wherever possible. If you can get the same effect by obeying all the natural "laws" currently known, why screw around with unlikelihoods like ftl when you don't have to? You can only weaken the sense of reality you are striving to achieve. And one final piece of advice (drawn from my vast writing experience? Well, no. But I certainly have read a lot). If you must introduce something like ftl, DON'T try to explain it in detail. You can only sound stupid to people who know something about the field of science involving your particular innovation. It is far safer to let your star drive go as a "warp bubble" or "hyperdrive" or whatever than to try and convince your reader that if they were just to apply six equal and opposing forces to a gyroscope they would wind up in Oz, which was one of my umpty-ump objections to Number of the Beast (ignoring the plot, huh?) I hope I haven't sounded too pontifical in this message, but I suppose I have. Tough. Laurence ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 86 17:51:32 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Impossibilities (...and Recommended Reading) gallmeis@unc.UUCP (Bill Gallmeister) writes: >The point of this disconnected raving is that the rules we posit >are only as good as the environment they are proposed in. What is >God's Truth today (pick your dogma; any dogma!) can be disproven in >an instant if we poke our heads out of the little rut we live in. >FTL transport will become a reality, and all it will mean is that >we were wrong. Again. If I may make a distinction here, there is a great deal of difference between "we will always be wrong about some things" and "we will always be wrong about everything". The first seems very likely to be true; the latter is absurd. Now, it is not in general possible to know which of the things we believe are right, and which will ultimately prove incorrect. Thus, the strongest statement I think is justified is that "FTL transport may become a reality". Personally, I suspect that it will not; i.e., "FTL transport will probably not become a reality". By the way, I also believe that "interstellar travel will almost certainly become a reality". Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 24 Sep 86 06:04:26 GMT From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Impossibilities Bill Gallmeister writes: >>2. Man has rules and the universe -- just kind of works. In >> reality, there is no E, or M, or C, and certainly no >> "squaring". These are labels man uses to define our universe. >> They are only true so far as we can see today. > > There is a name for the opposite belief -- that the behavior of >the universe can be understood. It is called 'science.' >Understandably, therefore, those of us who consider ourselves >'scientists' don't go along with your opinion as expressed above. I disagree. There is no contradiction between the practice of science and Gallmeister's statement; his statement isn't about the possibility of scientific knowledge, but rather one of what that knowledge means. If one accepts the premise, then one can draw two conclusions: 1: That the universe must be trusted before the models, and 2: that a theory claiming that something is impossible must be read with all the implications about the permanence and structures of physical law kept in mind. There is an argument about the possibility of communication with FTL particles (Tachrons) which claims that it is impossible, because of TT paradoxes. The problem is that any such argument is based on a lot of speculation about what time-travel really means. More fundamentally, it is based upon a whole network of notions about causality. But if the universe does in fact have tachrons going from place to place, then the new theory need not honor those notions (although it must explain their apparent macroscopic truth). >>3. The universe is uncharacterizable in its entirety by Man, >> because we are only Man, and when we characterize a thing, we >> bring our own bias into the matter. > > There is no evidence to support your statement (that the >universe is uncharacterizable), and there is substantial evidence >to the contrary (every successful prediction of science provides >such evidence). That merely shows that we can model some portion of the universe which we experience. I think the statement is a bit extreme, but it is a question again of what scientific models mean. I happen to believe that they for almost all purposes satifactory as models. C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1986 09:59 EDT From: Andrew T. Robinson <ANDY%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> Subject: Impossibilities To the person who doesn't like to think in terms of impossibilities, I applaud you. Naturally there are some things that can not be done by man alone at this point, but with the right tools he can do just about anything he sets his mind to. To the person who dismissed the aforementioned as "wanting a universe with laws the way he wanted them, and not the way they actually are" (not a direct quote), I say ptooey. As I said before there are some things that can not be done, but a vast majority of the uses of "impossible" in various circles are inaccurate. My attitude in this matter is in the "middle" -- I prefer to take the most scientific attitude possible (i.e., if I jump out an 10th-story window and flap my arms I will end up so much road-pizza on the pavement below), while allowing my mind to conceive circumstances where such apparent impossibilites might be overcome. There is certainly nothing irrational or insane about such an approach. As far as the FTL debate, I would say all of you who tout the "accepted impossibility of FTL travel," you'd better go back to studying Eintein's papers on the subject of relativity. Nowhere does it say "FTL travel is impossible." His theory merely proposes that no particle having mass can ACCELERATE past the speed of light. There is nothing in there that rules out the idea of quantum jumps of velocity past "c," for instance. I seem to remember similar evidence (like not so long ago) stating that man could not endure speeds exceeding the speed of sound either. Also, the lowly tachyon.... now there's an anomoly for those of you who claim no FTL travel. That sucker sure seems to travel FTL. As a matter of fact, the range of velocities of tachyons has probably not begun to be recorded. I strongly suspect time goes on scientists will discovers more and more "shells" of particle velocity, similar to the atomic quantum shells. That's my pet theory as a layman, anyway. Andy ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 86 16:39:58 GMT From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Impossibilities - tachyons? yes tachyons. From: Andrew T. Robinson <ANDY%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> > Also, the lowly tachyon.... now there's an anomoly for those of > you who claim no FTL travel. That sucker sure seems to travel > FTL. As a matter of fact, the range of velocities of tachyons has > probably not begun to be recorded. I strongly suspect time goes > on scientists will discovers more and more "shells" of particle > velocity, similar to the atomic quantum shells. That's my pet > theory as a layman, anyway. Huh? I wanna see your tachyon, oh please lemme see your tachyon! (And while you're at it how 'bout some references to some articles about the actual observations and any concrete evidence of their existence.) And wot about some different types of tachyon - now there's a goody; you know jus' like there's diff'rent types of Quark. And a few more quantum numbers, we ain't got nearly enough yet, or even half a dozen more parallel universes, I've already visited all the ones we got round here and boy are they dull! More variety, man! That's wot we need. Like, err, a little more fiction in real life, like err, if my imagination was, like, real, you'd all be crazy too. Yeah, and while we're at it, more shells, that's wot we need, more shells, I mean with all the pretty colours, and the way that they all shine pink on the inside, and when you hold them up to your ear you can hear the sea. I like the pretty shells too. Tim Abbott {allegra,ihnp4}!{noao,ut-sally}!utastro!tmca tmca@astro.UTEXAS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 86 22:14:05 GMT From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: Impossibilities From: Andrew T. Robinson <ANDY%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> >To the person who doesn't like to think in terms of >impossibilities, I applaud you. Naturally there are some things >that can not be done by man alone at this point, but with the right >tools he can do just about anything he sets his mind to. Prove it. There are many, many things man has wanted to do, and not been able to accomplish. Nor is there any evidence man will ever be able to do all the things he might wish. >To the person who dismissed the aforementioned as "wanting a >universe with laws the way he wanted them, and not the way they >actually are" (not a direct quote), I say ptooey. And I say ptooey back (see below). >As far as the FTL debate, I would say all of you who tout the >"accepted impossibility of FTL travel," you'd better go back to >studying Eintein's papers on the subject of relativity. Nowhere >does it say "FTL travel is impossible." His theory merely proposes >that no particle having mass can ACCELERATE past the speed of >light. There is nothing in there that rules out the idea of >quantum jumps of velocity past "c," for instance. Einstein's papers on relativity are not uniquely authoritative on what is or is not possible -- why bring up this red herring? In any case, there is nothing which indicates teleportation is possible, and much (have you ever heard of it happening?) which indicates it isn't. Why believe in teleportation and not the Tooth Fairy, when you have the same amount of evidence in both cases? *I* at least am perfectly willing to admit teleportation might be possible, even faster than light. But I am also willing to admit the Tooth Fairy might really exist. Are you? >I seem to remember similar evidence (like not so long ago) stating >that man could not endure speeds exceeding the speed of sound >either. Seeing you say this is evidence to me you don't know what you are talking about. The cases *are not* closely analogous. >Also, the lowly tachyon.... now there's an anomoly for those of you >who claim no FTL travel. That sucker sure seems to travel FTL. As >a matter of fact, the range of velocities of tachyons has probably >not begun to be recorded. I strongly suspect time goes on >scientists will discovers more and more "shells" of particle >velocity, similar to the atomic quantum shells. That's my pet >theory as a layman, anyway. And here is more evidence. Did it ever occur to the reason the velocity of tachyons has not been measured is that tachyons themselves have never been measured? They probably don't exist, since there is no observational support but there *are* theoretical arguments that they lead to contradictions in quantum field theory. As far as "shells" of velocity -- you are gibbering. Why not wipe the spittle off your lips and *learn* some science? The people who have some idea what they are talking about before they post will respect you more. Your arrogance in telling *other* people to read up on relativity is breathtaking. Why not adopt your own advice? You might find out what the arguments against FTL travel are, and be in a position to give a reasoned judgement on how convincing they might be. Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 86 18:42:15 GMT From: grc97!hurst@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Hurst) Subject: Re: Impossibilities (the Law of Fives) Please allow me to quote the Law of Fives: All phenomena are directly or indirectly related to the number five, and this relationship can always be demonstrated, given enough ingenuity on the part of the demonstrator. This is the very model of what a true scientific law must always be: a statement about how the human mind relates to the cosmos. We can never make a statement about the cosmos itself--but only about how our senses (or our instruments) detect it, and about how our codes and languages symbolize it. We must remember that scientific inquiry can only build possible models to describe the behavior we have observed. In this sense, we cannot understand the universe, but only the models which we build. We can never make predictions about what the universe will do; we can only make predictions about our models. Sometimes these models accurately reflect what we observe, sometimes they don't. Since these models are human artifacts, they must _necessarily_ reflect our experience of human existance. They are not and can never be complete representations of the universe! This is not to say that the models we build are not useful! On the contrary, they may be very useful, depending on their accuracy. But these models are useful only in that they reflect our experience. The results of scientific inquiry are not Truths of the universe. Rather, they are statements about ourselves and how we perceive the universe. David Hurst, KSC Gould Research Center email: ...ihnp4!grc97!hurst phone: (312) 640-2044 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Oct 86 0804-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #324 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 2 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 324 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Sep 86 01:34:24 GMT From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: More on Heinlein I got word today from an unimpeachable source who knows Heinlein personally that in fact those people who said Farnham's Freehold is meant to be *against* nuclear war are correct. When this person was informed that there are people here who are supporting Farnham's views on nuclear war's positive effects, he groaned and said that he'd met people like that too. He also said, when the title was first mentioned, that it was a really lousy book. This means I was wrong about one thing; Heinlein has apparently been against nuclear war for a while. But everything else I said stands. Heinlein is a militarist; he does in fact think the best people are soldiers; he is misanthropic and callous. It's not as if the idea that nuclear war is good is a popular one and therefore in need of popular refutation; his harping on this theme is hard to explain in any other way than a personal attraction to it, and this says a great deal about his character. Tim Maroney {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 25 Sep 86 05:08:03 GMT From: ames!barry@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb From: tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney): >The responses which have any point at all are divided into two >categories. First, there are people who agree with Hugh Farnham, >though they attempt to downplay the significance of his comments. >That is, they say that it would indeed be somewhat good to see the >race culled of useless people by nuclear war, but that *overall* >Farnham didn't say it would be a good thing. Second, there are >those who claim that Farnham's statements did not in fact reflect >Heinlein's views at all: that they were meant to be appalling and >were given the lie by the plot of the book. Don't think I fit perfectly in either camp; guess my last response got buried in those 20000 words. I'm nearly in the second camp, except that I don't think FF gives much evidence of RAH's views on nuclear war *either* way; that just ain't what the book's about. What *is* certain is that FF is not a book that actively *supports* Farnham's suggestion that nuclear war might be a good thing. >The second camp is at least worthy of discussion. The first, >however, is beneath contempt. This view does not "approach" >Nazism; it is not "like" Nazism; it *is* Nazism, and those who >propound it are of the same breed as the race-purgers of Berlin. I think you misunderstand this group in the same way you misunderstand Heinlein. You read Hugh Farnham as saying the death of millions was a good thing; they read him as saying it might have at least one good consequence: that the megadeaths might in some degree weed out more of the "least useful". Now, I happen to think that's a silly idea, but it ain't Nazi. The Nazis are the ones that want to be the instruments of evolution, weeding out the unfit themselves. Neither Farnham nor the "first-campers" suggest any such thing. They only say that, if it happened, it might have that effect. Sounds more to me like seeking for a silver lining than a denial of the evil cloud. >...Second, again from my readings of Heinlein, his right-wing >militarism was well known to me. Heinlein has never attempted to >disguise the fact that he considers the noblest human endeavor >(except possibly sex) to be picking up a weapon and joining with >like-minded men to kill the enemy, whether subhuman "bugs" or >Earthbound officials. I doubt that even the most adoring of >Heinlein groupies would deny this. This one will! If we are to assume we can glean Heinlein's opinions of the military from his novels, then I would have to say he must have deep conflicts about it. On the one hand, STARSHIP TROOPERS reads like a Marine recruitment pamphlet; yet the typical Heinlein protagonist is almost without exception a rebel, and poor at following orders. Oscar Gordon, the hero of GLORY ROAD, summarized his military career this way: "I was promoted to corporal. I was promoted seven times. To corporal. I didn't have the right attitude." Heinlein is on record, also (I mean in essays, not glib assumptions made from what a character in one of his novels says) as absolutely opposing the draft, and considering it a pure case of slavery. Based on his books, Heinlein obviously belongs somewhere on the Objectivist/Libertarian part of the political spectrum. He does believe in a strong military, and deeply distrusts the Russians. Communism is anathema to him. But I don't think this makes him a militarist. He also has a deep distrust of government, and the military don't look as pretty in his other books as they do in STARSHIP TROOPERS. In "The Man Who Was Too Lazy To Fail" (part of TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE) it is portrayed as pretty bad. The hero is a midshipman at 20th century Annapolis. He finds much sadism and hypocrisy. He takes up fencing to fulfill the stupid requirement that all midshipmen participate in sports, because it's a gentle sport whose participants seldom get injured. He gets good at it to duck the worst of the upperclassmen's sadism (don't disable our star fencer, boys). Heinlein was a midshipman at Annapolis, and was a championship fencer there. Hmmm... I think Heinlein admires some of the military ideals very much: that of service, of being willing to lay down your life for your fellow man, of honor, of courage. But he is a man who has seen both the military and politics from the inside, and it's clear he disliked much of what he saw. He seems to despise coercion in all forms. >My understanding of the plot is that a nuclear detonation - gosh >wow boy oh boy oh boy - actually knocks them clean into the far >future! The key phrase here is "FAR future". From what I have >heard, the future is quite remote, roughly on the order of the >distant future in "By His Bootstraps". This would suggest that the >historical connection is somewhat remote, if Heinlein meant any at >all. The time period, I think, was about 2000 years. We agree here. There's no clear indication that the nuclear war was directly responsible for the far-future society. That's the point. There's no major connection between FF and the nuclear war issue. >This view will be easy enough to contradict if it is wrong. Just >quote the passages, which I would expect to be of comparable length >to my quote, in which Farnham realizes how terrible his previous >positions had been, and how this hideous world was the actual >result of the nuclear war his generation underwent. As I've said >previously, if such a quote exists it will be unique in all of >Heinlein's fiction, but that does not make it impossible that it >exists. If you REALLY believe Farnham was saying the nukewar was a good idea, perhaps this will contradict it. From FF p. 203: "a missile-and-bomb holocaust that... smeared cities from Peiping to Chicago, Toronto to Smolensk; fire storms that had done ten times the damage the bombs did; nerve gas and other poisons that had picked up where fire left off; plagues that were incubating when the shocked survivors were picking themselves up and beginning to hope - plagues that were going strong when fallout was no longer deadly." ... "But there it was. The scrolls said that it had killed off the northern world." Does that sound like the survivalist manifesto you accuse Heinlein of? Winnable nukewar, the tough survive, etc.? According to FF, nearly all the survivors survived simply because they lived in the southern hemisphere; is that standard survivalist doctrine? >Is Heinlein a fascist? I have been called on to defend my >assertion that he is. (Tim goes on to argue that fascism=militarism, and Heinlein's a militarist, QED.) The *connection* of fascism with militarism is obvious. Fascism basically means imposing military-type discipline and regulation on the entire population. But I can't imagine anything farther from Heinlein's apparent attitudes. If there's one message that's sounded over and over again in his books, it's that the larger and more pervasive your government is, the more trouble you're in. Heinlein's heroes are constantly *escaping* from such systems, or overturning them: the corporate fascism of the Moon in THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS; the guild-dominated culture of STARMAN JONES; the slavers *and* the Free Traders of CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY; the list goes on and on. He does seem to see some virtue in the military, I grant. If that makes him a fascist then I guess I'm a fascist, too, but I don't look at things as pure black and white. I was passionately opposed to the Vietnam war, and am deeply distrustful of today's Pentagon, but there *are* such things as military virtues, Tim. The soldier's real job is not to kill for his country, it's to die for his country. There can be nobility in that, and sacrifice, as there was in WW II. >A few people have claimed that part of the "Heinlein ethic" places >great value on the individual. As an anarchist, I don't think so. >In Heinlein's fiction, the vast majority of people are always >portrayed as beyond any hope, terminally stupid, and in general >cattle that we would all be much better off without. (Another >reason I am willing to think that Heinlein has entertained the >notion that killing off most of the race and sparing the soldiers >would be a lovely thing....) The protagonists are always far above >the rest of humanity by their very nature. This is an interesting point. I at least partially agree. On the one hand, Heinlein sings hymns to the virtues of individual freedom, yet his heroes seem nonchalant about doing things that affect the lives of many others, without asking them. They seem elitist, certain that they are right, and impatient with opposition. It sometimes seems that he favors liberty only because that's the system that lets his kind of people rise to the top most easily. Well, maybe so. But I don't think that makes his belief in freedom any less genuine. >Do I worship Michael Moorcock? Let's not be silly, folks. Sorry to hear it; I kinda worship him. Rate him right up there with Heinlein. I take both their politics with a grain of salt, though :-). >"Pie from the Sky". The quote from "Ghastly Beyond Belief" does >appear to have been out of context. However, this does not make >everything cut and dried in favor of Heinlein. Tim goes on to explain how the apparent irony of "Pie From The Sky" may have in reality been a double whammy, arguing for nuclear war by "praising with faint damns". Tim, it's a short essay, maybe 10 pages. If you still want to argue its meaning, read the damn thing; otherwise, why not just accept the universal judgment of everyone who's read it? I didn't ask you to read FF before speaking further on it because it's long, and really not very good, but this is just a little essay. Just read it, and then tell us if there are secret messages between the lines. >Heinlein's all-talk-and-no-action shallow utopianism is a fine >example of the sort of mysticism preferred by the right wing. I >should point out that I'm a mystic myself, but that doesn't mean >I'm unaware of the history of the thing. A mystic and an anarchist, and you detest Heinlein's insides! Forgive me for seeing irony in this. Judging by his books, Heinlein is something close to an anarchist himself. 'Course, he's more a *right*-wing anarchist, so I guess that's no good :-). He also betrays a mystical streak in many of his books. And STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND, among others, rakes religion, specifically Xianity, over the coals in a way very similar to your "Even If I Did Believe" essay. SIASL also has an approving attitude toward different and freer sexual mores, something I recall you defending in other discussions. Even your writing is similar to his: opinionated, polemical, colorful, and very individual. And intelligent even when wrong :-). Don't mean to imply you're obligated to like the man or his books just because you agree with him on some things, but it *is* interesting, since your dislike seems ideological. >I don't expect to convince any Heinlein fan of anything bad about >Heinlein, any more than my infamous essay "Even If I Did Believe" >has ever convinced a Bible believer of the evil of Yahweh. I just >enjoy pointing out the truths that most people would rather leave >unsaid. Go right on idolizing him, and Hemingway and other great >American sissies (as Gore Vidal put it) as well. It's a somewhat >free country.... Oh, come now. I can say lots of bad things about Heinlein's books. They draw from a very limited cast of characters, they're often overly talky, they're loosely plotted, and tend to tail off into unsatisfying climaxes... or did you mean, convince me of something bad about Heinlein the person? That's a bit trickier. He's a very private man, and has let little about himself become public knowledge. I can speculate about his opinions based on his fiction, as I have above, but only with the clear disclaimer that I *am* speaking of fiction. You talk of the consistency in his opinions over the years, but you never mention the differences. Despite the similarities, RAH's books disagree with each other about all *kinds* of things. Compare STARSHIP TROOPERS with MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS, for example. So, how safe is it to conclude things about the author from his books? And especially from isolated quotes? I don't expect to convince you either, Tim, I just thought it would be fun to try. It has been. Care to comment? Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA ELECTRIC AVENUE: {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,hplabs}!ames!barry ------------------------------ Date: 25 Sep 86 06:42:59 GMT From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: Maroney and Heinlein CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU writes: >I am ASTOUNDED! Tim Maroney, please answer: >1. Even if "the old Hiroshima treatment" flippancy didn't tip you > off to the possibility that the quote was perhaps not intended > to be taken seriously, surely now that you have been told the > surrounding context, you would admit that the passage was IRONIC > not LITERAL? Or do you really think that Heinlein is serious > and deadly earnest in wanting to get rid of the old lady with > her bowling ball, etc etc? I am AMAZED! (Not really, but it looked like so much fun when you did I just had to give it a try...) Yes, I have "admitted" that the quote from "Pie from the Sky" was out of context. But I find the context equally disturbing, albeit for somewhat different reasons. Heinlein never says that killing off all these annoying people would be bad in itself, or that the main evil is the formerly unimaginable mass murder of hundreds of millions of people; his argument seems to be that those who did survive would be lacking the comforts of civilization and would regret the war that thrust them into these circumstances. >2. Do you realize that if your argument were valid, YOU would be a > supporter of nuclear war? After all, you wrote a passage in > which a character supports nuclear war. I did? When? But in any case, I have become convinced that Heinlein does not support nuclear war. That hardly changes the opinion of his "philosophy" I gained from reading tens of his books, however. >3. Do you similarly feel that Mark Twain is racist since some of > his characters call blacks niggers? I suppose in my message of yesterday I should have mentioned this point concerning Huck Finn, since a number of people have brought it up. I really don't think the two novels are comparable. I recently paraphrased a dialogue fragment of Twain's on net.books, where one character jarringly ignores the humanity of blacks. I cannot imagine any racist trotting out this quote and saying, "Huh, see, blacks ain't human!" On the other hand, right on this group we have seen proto-Nazis using Farnham's schpiel as support for the idea that nuclear war would have some good effects. This is not a difference in intent, just in skill. Twain was an eminently skilled satirist, whereas Heinlein is not. He is a fairly skilled propagandist, and unfortunately he used his propaganda skills in writing the passage I quoted. Thank you for your polite message. Tim Maroney {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 1 Oct 86 0825-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #325 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Oct 86 0825-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #325 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 2 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 325 Today's Topics: Books - Bova & MacAvoy & Norton (2 msgs) & Zelazny (5 msgs) & Story Title Request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Sep 1986 23:43 EDT (Mon) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> To: Michael Laufer <mlaufer%CCT.BBN@EDDIE.MIT.EDU> Cc: ringwld!jmturn%CCA.CCA@EDDIE.MIT.EDU Subject: Book Search From: Michael Laufer <mlaufer at cct.bbn.com> >James Turner (ARPA:ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA) writes: >>The story is a space opera, concerning a young man who gathers a >>force to topple ancient (but not by default evil) rulers of the >>galaxy and their minions. It is pre-1965, and the author's name or >>psuedonym is probably early in the alphabet. He read it first in >>hardcover. > >I too have been looking for this book. It is by Ben Bova. I first >read it in hardback from a school library. A minor character in >the book appears as a younger man in another of Ben Bova's books, I >believe it is called _As_On_A_Darkening_Plain_, as the main >character. I apologize that I cannot at the moment remember the >name of this book. The story line has the earth people fighting >the GUARDIANS for the freedom to expand the boundries of the TERRAN >EMPIRE. They are also looking for the OTHERS who previously >destroyed the earth. I loved it. I wonder if the story will hold >up if I reread it now? I believe the book is "Star Watchman." I've never read it, but I remember hunting for it for a long time some years ago. There is a quasi-sequel to it as well, called "Star Guard" or something like that. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 86 17:44:01 GMT From: hutch@volkstation.gwd.tek.com (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: TWISTING THE ROPE by R. A. MacAvoy ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (e.c.leeper) writes: > THE BOOK OF KELLS was a step back toward the over-used--in >this case, the Celtic. While I agree that Celtic mythology may >have a certain appeal for someone named MacAvoy, I personally am >getting somewhat tired of the current epidemic of Celtic and >pseudo-Celtic fantasy covering the shelves in the science >fiction/fantasy sections these days. Don't get me wrong. MacAvoy >does it well, but I question the necessity of doing it at all these >days. Before I rant, let me say that this is nothing personal. It's just that certain critics in local and national press have been taking this attitude and it drives me up a wall. In fact, it seems to be endemic to the mental disease (sorry, mental STATE) which drives people to become critics... WHAT MAKES YOU THINK NECESSITY HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT? So, you've read several other books using Celtic mythology, SO WHY SHOULD MacAvoy have to not write one, just because OTHER people have already? I see that there's a local theatre company thinking of doing a Gilbert and Sullivan play. How foolish, why should they bother, other people have already done it recently on TV and in movies, and it just isn't NECESSARY. Feh. With this attitude, why should Heinlein continue to write? Or Ellison? Or Asimov, Niven, Pournelle, etc. Why should Beethoven have bothered with more than three symphonies? Why should Michaelangelo have bothered to paint more than one cherub on the ceiling? Why, indeed, should there be anything at all on television or radio? (IS THERE anything at all on television or radio?) Sure, a topic can be done to the saturation point, and knock-off cheap shoddy imitations on a topic can be done by the thousands, but that should not mean that it cannot be done. Critics tend to have a notion that they have artistic "Taste" and that as arbiters of taste, their opinion ought to matter, even to the point of influencing the artists whose works they criticize. They are usually mistaken about this. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 86 10:03:32 edt From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: Norton "Witch World" > There is a sequel to _Sign of the Unicorn_ about the 2 main > character's child. Sorry I don't know the name of it right now, > (I'm at work) The sequel to 'Year of the Unicorn' is 'The Jargoon Pard'. See also 'Gryphon in Glory' for events leading up to YoU. Dani Zweig ------------------------------ Date: 29 Sep 1986 23:48 EDT (Mon) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> Subject: Norton's Witchworld There are also two other sets of books: The Gryphon Books: 1. The Crystal Gryphon 2. Gryphon in Glory 3. Gryphon's Eyrie and a separate book, although I believe it links to the Unicorn book, called the "Jargoon Pard." Several of the characters from Unicorn show up late in the story. I also vaguely recall a sequel to Jargoon, but I don't really remember. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Sep 86 16:16:26 GMT From: iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Iverson) Subject: Re: Amber ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes: >We find out in Sign of the Unicorn that Amber was created by Oberon >by enscribing the Pattern. Elsewhere it is stated that the Courts >are clear across the other side of existence from Amber, and >represents the farthest an Amberite can travel in shadow. If the >Chaos lords have only limited travel in shadow, how did Oberon >originally travel away from the Courts to enscribe the Pattern? In >all the Amber books, it's made clear that one can only travel >freely in shadow by walking the Pattern. This brings up a >chicken-and-egg question. First of all, Dworkin created the pattern, not Oberon. This is made clear in THE HAND OF OBERON, which also explains that Dworkin inscribed the pattern literally under the noses of the Chaos Lords and that all of Shadow was then aligned between Amber and Chaos - somewhat like filings about the poles of a magnet. A more interesting questions arises from Corwin's pattern: what happens to Chaos, Amber, and Shadow when a third pole is added? >Second question. Dworkin and Oberon are shape-shifters, and >apparently anyone from the Courts also have this talent. Why then >don't any of the children of Oberon have this ability? Does >walking the pattern do gene damage? :-) This is perhaps explained in BLOOD OF AMBER, where Zelazny seats us in Merlin's mind as he performs a shape change. Merlin uses the Logrus to do this. So, perhaps only initiates of "Chaos' pattern" can shape change. This implies that both Dworkin and Oberon have traversed the Logrus, which makes sense since Oberon commented to Dworkin once about the rigors of growing up at the Courts. Also, since Brand was able to summon monsters and lighted cigarettes, presumably, he, too, mastered the Logrus. Hence, the children of Amber could do so as well. Merlin's manipulation of the Logrus brings about another interesting line of investigation. Mainly, if Merlin can use the Logrus (which is probably just another aspect of the primal pattern) the way he does, why can't he use the Pattern of Amber similarly? It seems that Chaosians are much more sophisticated in the manipulation of their pattern than the Amberites are in theirs. Surely someone bright enough to build a sentient computer (a.k.a. Merlin) could see this potential for power and exploit it. >Thirdly, there seems to be some kind of tie between Oberon and the >Unicorn. Anyone want to speculate? Beastiality? Dworkin told Corwin (Dworkin thought that Corwin was Oberon) in THE HAND OF OBERON that the Unicorn was his mother. Dworkin is, of course, insane. >One of the things I like most about Zelazny's writing is that he >doesn't explain anything, he just tells the story and leaves it to >you to figure out what's going on. This makes the story move right >along and makes the reader pay attention. Piers Anthony could take >a couple of lessons from him. The Blue Adept stories were OK, but >I rapidly tired of having the plot spoon-fed to me. I agree. I too, I am tired of Piers Anthony killing a good idea by constantly trying to explain the reasons he had each of his characters do each little act and think each trivial thought. Another thing about his work that bothers me is the portrayal of good and evil and the necessary simplifications his characters undergo in order for him to mold them into his melodramatic themes. Tim Iverson iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU ...!ucbvax!cory!iverson ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 86 16:45:12 GMT From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas Cox) Subject: My Mother the Unicorn [Amber spoilers] and A. Lincoln iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Tim Iverson): >ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian): >>Thirdly, there seems to be some kind of tie between Oberon and >>the Unicorn. Anyone want to speculate? Beastiality? > > Dworkin told Corwin (Dworkin thought that Corwin was Oberon) in >THE HAND OF OBERON that the Unicorn was his mother. Dworkin is, of >course, insane. Not neccessarily. For example: 1. Oberon could have shape-shifted into something vaguely horse-like in order to impregnate the Unicorn with Oberon. 2. Dworkin is speaking metaphorically [a lousy way out but possible]. 3. We don't know enough about the Unicorn to answer this or any question about her. 4. A better answer exists which I will not post. Rather, through subtle shiftings of Shadow via the Pattern and the Logrus, I will ensure that someone else on the Net will post that answer. >>One of the things I like most about Zelazny's writing is that he >>doesn't explain anything, he just tells the story and leaves it to >>you to figure out what's going on. This makes the story move >>right along and makes the reader pay attention. I rapidly tire[] >>of having the plot spoon-fed to me. This is one of Zelazny's strong suits. Although there are many readers who prefer a little more verbosity, I prefer the Zelazny [or the Hemingwayesque, which is too long a word] terseness. This is for stylistic reasons. On occasion I have read stories in which literally nothing was superfluous to the plot. Anything mentioned -- someone's hobby, someone else's habits -- would eventually come to bear directly on the story line. Such stories are difficult to write, and more difficult to write well [that is, without sacrificing character development to naked plot]. I think of these stories as being structured almost like diamond: atoms linked with each other in a dense and precise series of linkages without gap or flaw, making an unbreakable whole. Find some time a copy of Lincoln's "Gettysburg Address." Look at his use of the word 'dedicate.' He manages, through very tight structuring and reference, to build a remarkably clear and coherent paragraph without loose ends. Lincoln may have been a good President, but more importantly he was a hell of a writer. Thomas Cox ...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn ------------------------------ Date: 29 Sep 86 21:03:22 GMT From: uwmacc!oyster@caip.rutgers.edu (Vicarious Oyster) Subject: Re: Amber ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes: >Second question. Dworkin and Oberon are shape-shifters, and >apparently anyone from the Courts also have this talent. Why then >don't any of the children of Oberon have this ability? Does >walking the pattern do gene damage? :-) I don't know about the other questions, but I would assume that this is the old heredity vs. environment argument; I've always assumed that growing up in the Courts of Chaos, amongst things chaotic (including physical laws), would give one the shape-shifting ability/curse. Joel ({allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 86 21:12 EDT From: <SYSMSH%ULKYVX.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> Subject: 'blood of amber' I just picked up "BLOOD OF AMBER" also. It doesn't really answer very many questions raised by "TRUMPS OF DOOM". Is everybody sure this is just going to be a trilogy? Anyone aware of what the next in the series will be? I'm trying to figure out who the masked wizard is. I assume that this is the key to the whole mess. Could it be Brand? Perhaps Corwin himself? I'd be interested in hearing anyone elses thoughts on this via net mail... Mark Hittinger systems programmer iv OCIS south center University of Louisville Louisville, Ky 40292 sysmsh%ulkyvx.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 30 Sep 86 00:45:16 GMT From: avolio@decuac.DEC.COM (Frederick M. Avolio) Subject: Re: Amber (SPOILER: Nine Princes Series) My wife Lisa had these answers to pass on. (She has just finished the series and, in any event, retains things much better and longer than I.) ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes: > We find out somewhere in, I think The Hand of Oberon that King > Oberon is from the Courts of Chaos, and Dworkin the mad artist is > Oberon's father, Corwin's grandfather. ... > > We find out in Sign of the Unicorn that Amber was created by > Oberon by enscribing the Pattern. ... If the Chaos lords have > only limited travel in shadow, how did Oberon originally travel > away from the Courts to enscribe the Pattern? In THE HAND OF OBERON, Dworkin, mad though he is, does indicate that it was *he* who created Amber. In Chapter 5, as he talks to Corwin (whom he thinks is Oberon), he talks of those days. He says "I am the Pattern..." (See QUESTION 3, below.) It is also here that Corwin learns that they are Dworkin's grandchildren. In this same section we find Dworkin saying "By the Unicorn, thy mother..." Oberon was a product of Dworkin and the Unicorn. (We cannot speak of "beastiality" since human-form is clearly not Dworkin's real form, and who knows what the Unicorn *really* is.) > Second question. Dworkin and Oberon are shape-shifters, and > apparently anyone from the Courts also have this talent. Why then > don't any of the children of Oberon have this ability? Does > walking the pattern do gene damage? :-) In THE COURTS OF CHAOS, in Chapter 2, they speculate on this. Dara is there and she can shape-change. As she says, "All whose origins involve Chaos are shapechangers." She goes on, "Oberon is a son of Chaos. A rebel son of a rebel son, but the power is still there." When asked why they cannot by Random, she asks, how do you know you cannot? Have you ever tried? And notes, perhaps the ability has died out with their (the third) generation. (Remember, The Unicorn was not of Chaos, and none of Oberon's wives were.) > Thirdly, there seems to be some kind of tie between Oberon and the > Unicorn. Anyone want to speculate? Beastiality? See Question 1, above. Fred @ DEC Ultrix Applications Center INET: avolio@decuac.dec.com UUCP: {decvax,seismo,cbosgd}!decuac!avolio ------------------------------ Date: 29 Sep 86 10:47 EDT From: denber.wbst@Xerox.COM Subject: Here's the Plot... ...what's the title? I remember reading this story a long long time ago - I think it's moderately well known. It's about a scientist who decides to actually perform the "monkies and the typewriters" experiment, where according to probability, eventually the monkies will, by typing randomly, produce all of the world's great works of literature. He gets a bunch of monkies together and teaches them to pound on the typewriters. Years go by, and all they produce is gibberish, until one day a monkey starts typing some Shakepeare plays, word for word. The scientist is astounded as the monkey finishes a play and goes on to Moby Dick. He can't accept this violation of probability and finally shoots the monkey, who with his dying gasp, types out "Uncle Tom's Cabin, by Harriet Beecher ..." and slumps over dead. Help - what *is* this story? Please reply directly to me as I'm not on the list. Thanks. Michel Denber.WBST@Xerox.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Oct 86 0852-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #326 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 2 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 326 Today's Topics: Television - Battlestar Galactica & Blake's 7 (3 msgs) & Hitchhiker's Guide & Phantom Empire & The Phoenix & The Prisoner (2 msgs) & Spectreman & More SF TV ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Sep 86 06:25:16 GMT From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton) Subject: History of the Cylons Re: Lost In Space/Battlestar Galactica >>>"In Battlestar Galactica, the super-cylon set to advise Baltar >>>had a very familiar voice - that of the man you love to hate, >>>Jonathan Harris, aka Dr. Smith." > >>It was Patrick Macnee (sp?), he of the bowler and brollee on "The >>Avengers," who later played an antichrist figure on B. G. > >It was both. Patrick Macnee was the 'Imperious Leader', but >Jonathan Harris was the voice of Lucifer (??), Balthar's advisor. >Patrick Macnee did indeed play Count Iblis. I think the point is missed here. I'm not sure I should admit I know this much about the show, but the "antichrist" figure, also known as Count Iblis, WAS the Cylon imperious leader, or the organic Cylon as some knew him. [Before people say this sounds like the Bruce Spence/Mad Max debate, there was a scene where "Count Iblis" confronted Baltar (the traitor) whom he had just brought to prison on Lorne Greene's ship. Baltar identified Iblis' voice as that of the Cylon imperious leader, as he was the only living human who had heard that voice.] [Many of you may be unaware that there was a cinema version of the B.G. Pilot. In the TV version, the leader ordered Baltar's execution, but decided to stay it so he could chase the humans. In the cinema version, his head was chopped off, most satisfactorily.] Anyway, it was never stated in so many words, but it isn't hard to piece together the history of the Cylons. "Count Iblis" was a rogue member of a vastly superior anarchistic race with a policy of not allowing their members to use their super powers to interfere in the affairs of lesser beings. They had no law against the use of seduction and argument, and Iblis was the type who loved seducing lesser creatures into his power. A long time ago, the Cylons were an organic race. Iblis, simply as a politician, won his way to leadership of this power-hungry race. He convinced them to build a series of warrior robots. These Cylon robots conquered the neighbouring systems, but in Berserker style also killed all of their organic creators, except for the Imperious Leader himself. The I.L. then sent his creatures out after mankind, and this is where the series began. Much later, he appeared to humans in the Iblis form, and seduced several, although not Richard Hatch, the star. He was about to kill Hatch's new love interest, when Hatch stepped in the way and was killed instead. This constituted a use of his superior powers against a human who was not one of his followers, and was a violation of the laws of the superior race. They hauled him away. I can't believe I just wrote all this about a show that was otherwise horribly laced with flaws. Nonetheless it is an interesting history worthy of good SF and quite above the normal level of the show. Brad Templeton Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: 25 September 1986 10:22:13 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson) Subject: Blake's 7 We've been getting "Blake's 7" here for several months now, and I find it a most enjoyable show, second only to "Doctor Who". Right now we're about five episodes into the second season. Comments and questions: (========SPOILERS========) 1) How did Gan die? (I missed that episode). 2) During Blake's absence, I expected Avon to take charge of the Liberator. However, when Dayna and Tarrant joined the crew he seems to have let Tarrant assume command. Since Tarrant is a newcomer, I don't think he should be giving orders to everyone as if he had been with the crew from the start. (I was especially bothered when he and Dayna insinuated that Cally had anything to do with the ship's course change in the episode "Dawn of the Gods"). My question is: does Blake ever return? (Just a yes or no; I don't want to know the details). 3) When Dayna first met Avon (in "Aftermath", I belive), she kissed him out of curiosity, to which Avon said something like "I hope your curiosity isn't easily satisfied." I then expected some sort of romance to develop between them. However, in the episodes after that (that I've seen so far), nothing happens. Did the writers just forget about it, or does something eventually happen between them? Most of the episodes that I've seen have been quite good, but I especially liked the episode "City at the Edge of the World" for Colin "the 6th Doctor" Baker and Valentine "the White Guardian" Dall's appearances, and for Vila's romance with the female space pirate Kerrill. Carlo Samson U09862@uicvm U09862@uicvm.bitnet U09862%uicvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 29 Sep 86 15:35:08 GMT From: hrcca!jean@caip.rutgers.edu (Jean Airey) Subject: Re: Blake's 7 **SPOILERS** > 1) How did Gan die? (I missed that episode). In the episode "Pressure Point" during the attack on what Blake though was the Central Control (later identified as Star One). After Travis exploded a grenade in the underground complex Gan supported a closing door to let the others through & was trapped. > 2) During Blake's absence, I expected Avon to take charge of the > Liberator. However, when Dayna and Tarrant joined the crew he > seems to have let Tarrant assume command. Since Tarrant is a > newcomer, I don't think he should be giving orders to everyone > as if he had been with the crew from the start. (I was > especially bothered when he and Dayna insinuated that Cally had > anything to do with the ship's course change in the episode > "Dawn of the Gods"). My question is: does Blake ever return? > (Just a yes or no; I don't want to know the details). Avon won't be bothered arguing with Tarrant -- as long as Tarrant doesn't interfere with what Avon wants to do. The ship does need a pilot & as long as Tarrant can do that job he can hang around. *But* watch Avon and Cally close ranks to protect Vila in "City On the Edge Of The World." You will see Blake again in "Terminal" and "Blake". > 3) When Dayna first met Avon (in "Aftermath", I believe), she > kissed him out of curiosity, to which Avon said something like > "I hope your curiosity isn't easily satisfied." I then expected > some sort of romance to develop between them. However, in the > episodes after that (that I've seen so far), nothing happens. > Did the writers just forget about it, or does something > eventually happen between them? Nothing happened on the show. Fan writers have some theories :-). Paul Darrow commented on that same question "Avon doesn't like girls, he likes *women*. He doesn't have time to teach her the terrors of the universe." He does, however, feel responsible for her (something he's not always comfortable with!). Jean Airey: US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506 ihnp4!hrcca!jean ------------------------------ Date: 29 Sep 86 22:28:00 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: Blake's 7 > 1) How did Gan die? (I missed that episode). Gan died because Blake made a mistake and fell for a trap. > 2) During Blake's absence, I expected Avon to take charge of the > Liberator. However, when Dayna and Tarrant joined the crew he > seems to have let Tarrant assume command. Since Tarrant is a > newcomer, I don't think he should be giving orders to everyone > as if he had been with the crew from the start. (I was > especially bothered when he and Dayna insinuated that Cally had > anything to do with the ship's course change in the episode > "Dawn of the Gods"). My question is: does Blake ever return? > (Just a yes or no; I don't want to know the details). No one is really in command of the Liberator after Blake leaves. Avon manages to dominate most of the others, though. Someone said that Blake made two more appearances after he left. Anyway, he never rejoins the group. > 3) When Dayna first met Avon (in "Aftermath", I belive), she > kissed him out of curiosity, to which Avon said something like > "I hope your curiosity isn't easily satisfied." I then expected > some sort of romance to develop between them. However, in the > episodes after that (that I've seen so far), nothing happens. > Did the writers just forget about it, or does something > eventually happen between them? Nothing really happens between any of the crew. There was a scene where Blake met his girlfriend. Jenna looked rather jealous. Any romance that goes on seems to be between the good guys and the bad guys. Similar to the BBC's policy of "no hanky-panky in the TARDIS", I guess. david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 30 Sep 86 00:37:48 GMT From: hsgj@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Mr. Barbecue) Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide Videos Does anyone have a copy of the first episode of the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" on videotape? I didn't know one of our local public TV stations was goping to be showing it until too late. I would be willing to trade any or episodes 2-6, or any serial from Colin Baker's first season as Dr. Who. Please reply via e-mail, so as not to clutter up the net. Thanks in advance, Jeff Metzner ARPA: hsgj%vax2.ccs.cornell.edu@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu UUCP: ihnp4!cornell!batcomputer!hsgj BITNET: hsgj@cornella ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 29 Sep 1986 11:08:38-PDT From: todd%sarah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Old SF TV shows At the risk of dating myself, I haven't yet noticed mention of (ta-da) PHANTOM EMPIRE, a show I remember fondly from my extreme youth in the '50s. Even then, it may have been in re-runs - or perhaps derived from episodes in a medium preceding widespread use of television itself. In memory, at any rate, it comes across as OLD (i.e., somewhat hokey), even for that time. Involved an advanced, underground, hidden civilization - awe-inspiring (for a five- or six-year-old, anyway) devices and tin-can robots and the like. I really can't remember much detail - it may well have been a Saturday-morning kids' show. Any other grey-beards out there with a better recollection? Bill ------------------------------ Date: 30 September 1986 08:09:42 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson ) Subject: The Phoenix > This show came out about the same time as another short lived >sci-fi series called The Phoenix. It starred Judson Scott as an I too remember "The Phoenix". The pilot movie was rather strange, but the series was pretty good. There was one episode where Bennu racks up a high score on a "Phoenix" video game, and tells the awe- struck kids that the secret to winning is to "become the machine". Too bad the show was axed; I really wanted to know what his mission was. Carlo Samson U09862%uicvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 29 Sep 86 11:49:52 GMT From: crew@decwrl.DEC.COM (Roger Crew) Subject: Re: Questioning "The Prisoner" >From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson >2) What agency did he resign from? Prior to doing The Prisoner, Patrick MacGoohan starred in the series Secret Agent (which I don't believe has ever been shown in the US) in which he plays a James-Bond-type character working for what I assume was some branch of British Intelligence (be it MI-5/6 or whatever...) The Prisoner was originally envisioned as a sequel (i.e., following the same character after he resigns...). At some point they must have decided there was no need to explicitly reference/rely on anything from the earlier series. Roger Crew ..!decwrl!crew crew@sushi.stanford.edu ------------------------------ Date: 29 Sep 86 18:01:49 GMT From: axiom!gts@caip.rutgers.edu (Guy Schafer) Subject: A Sane Man Reveals What "The Prisoner" Is All About. Subject: ***SPOILERS*** When I first saw the Prisoner series, it was on a PBS station which meant that there was 8-10 minutes at the end of each episode (no commercials) for some critique and analysis. This was added in a very intellegent and sometimes humorous manner by a man whose name escapes me. After the last show, this reviewer took about 40 minutes and interviewed Patrick MacGoohan (who wrote or helped write all the episodes). Then a studio audience was allowed to ask him questions. This is what he said: * "Who is number 1?" "You are number six" is a deliberate clue. * The village is a metaphor for our society. * Rover was intentionally amorphous and vague as it represents the fears that an individual faces in rejecting society which are often formless but ever-present. * Number 1 wore a monkey mask because even he was forced to 'ape' all the other members of society. * The only person that keeps you in the village, in our society--that is, makes you act in a socially acceptable manner at the expense of freedom--is yourself. Hence Number 1 = Number 6. * This last also explains why, after 'escaping,' the door to apt. #1 in London opened and closed in a village-like manner (automatically and with sound effects); he is 'trapped' in society. He drives his car away with that half-smile, half-sneer because in the opening scenes, this activity is a prelude to becoming trapped--there is no 'escape.' Hope this clears it up. Flames to Patrick MacGooham. ...{ decvax!linus || seismo!harvard }!axiom!gts ------------------------------ Date: 26 September 1986 15:14:01 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson) Subject: Old SF TV (Spectreman) Anyone remember a show called "Spectreman"? I don't think it's that old; I recall seeing it for the first time a few years ago. It's about a race of beings called the Overlords who send Spectreman to Earth (specifically, Tokyo) to help stop the pollution that threatens the planet. In his human form was known as George, and worked for some organization called the Pollution Squad (though they spent more time fighting monsters than toxic waste). The villain was an apeman (Dr. something, forgot his name) from the Planet E. I always thought of this show as an inferior ripoff of "Ultraman", though the theme song was kinda neat: Spectreman! Spectreman! In a flash, Like a flame Faster Than a plane. A mystery With the name Of Spectreman. Powers From space He'll save The human race. Yet they'll never know the face Of Spectreman. We will never know the source Of his power and his force As he guides this planet's course. Spectreman! Carlo Samson U09862%uicvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 86 11:45:55 cet From: 7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: SF TV Some other SF shows that spring to mind are "Fantastic Journey", which provided an explanation as to the Bermuda Triangle: it's an inter- dimensional warp hiding a large (almost continent-sized) island which is covered with a jigsaw pattern of "Time Zones" -- a different time is in existence in each of these zones. I think it would have been a success if they had had a wider variety of writers, as the show very quickly became formula. Good at the outset, however. Another is the British cartoon Dangermouse. Although this might be considered more in the line of 'action', I think that the amazing car that always seems to repair itself { :-) } alone qualifies it. I was rather pleasantly surprised to find out that Oxford has a club called the "Dangermouse Appreciation Society"..... George ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Oct 86 0858-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #327 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 6 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 327 Today's Topics: Books - MacAvoy (4 msgs) & McCollum & Sagan & Tepper & Yarbro & Author Request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Sep 86 23:57:52 GMT From: genat!mckillic@caip.rutgers.edu (Don Mckillican) Subject: Re: TWISTING THE ROPE by R. A. MacAvoy ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (e.c.leeper) writes: > TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON had as one of its two central >characters Mayland Long. He was an enigmatic Chinese gentleman (in >the literal sense of the word) and made TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON a >truly memorable book. What appealed to me was MacAvoy's use of one >of the lesser used (at that time anyway) mythologies--the Chinese >mythology, with its dragons and spirits. Interesting to see how differently different people can react to the same book. I also much enjoyed TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON, but more for the characters with whom she peopled the book than her knowledge of Chinese mythology. Mayland Long *is* a fascinating study, and I couldn't care less if MacAvoy had invented the entire concept of dragons. > THE BOOK OF KELLS was a step back toward the over-used--in >this case, the Celtic. While I agree that Celtic mythology may >have a certain appeal for someone named MacAvoy, I personally am >getting somewhat tired of the current epidemic of Celtic and >pseudo-Celtic fantasy covering the shelves in the science >fiction/fantasy sections these days. Don't get me wrong. MacAvoy >does it well, but I question the necessity of doing it at all these >days. This "Irish-ness" has almost nothing to do with what I got out of THE BOOK OF KELLS. For me the book became one of my favorites when, after about 140 pages of writing the story from the point of view of the Irish characters (who considered the Vikings much as we do Orcs :-)), she suddenly started telling the story from point of view of the Vikings. And forced us to consider the Vikings as human too. It's MacAvoy's humanity that keeps me reading her, not her "Celtic fantasies" (even if I am myself of related stock :-)). > That brings us back to TWISTING THE ROPE. Martha Macnamara >and Mayland Long are back, all right, but they're now the managers >of a touring Celtic folk group. Seriously. Why not? Are managers of Celtic folk groups any less fit topics for fiction than dragons? >It is, rather, a murder mystery that needn't have been fantasy at >all. It's a well-written murder mystery, true... Perfectly true (and I'm glad you admit her skill). But why must this be a criticism? It is not the function of fiction to adhere to your classifi- cations, it is the function of your classfications to describe fiction. Why should it be forbidden to write a novel with elements of more than one genre? I found the mixture intriguing, myself. >I just hope that MacAvoy will return to the not-so-well-trodden >ground she began to explore before. For my part, I hope that MacAvoy continues to write with the same humanity and skill as she has shown hitherto. I'm sorry you didn't like the book. I wish you had gotten around to mentioning some of the characters in TWISTING THE ROPE. I wish more authors spent as much time making their characters real and believable and sympathetic as MacAvoy does (and anyone who considers those three adjectives to be mutually exclusive I will refer to the nearest Speaker for the Dead). Don McKillican {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,pyramid}!utzoo!mnetor!genat!mckillic seismo!mnetor!genat!mckillic ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 86 22:55:58 GMT From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas Cox) Subject: R. A. MacAvoy's TWISTING THE ROPE > mckillic@genat.UUCP (Don Mckillican) >> ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (e.c.leeper) >> TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON had as one of its two central >>characters Mayland Long. He was an enigmatic Chinese gentleman >>(in the literal sense of the word) and made TEA WITH THE BLACK >>DRAGON a truly memorable book. TEA was an excellent book largely [I feel] because of the amount of time we spend inside Long's head, and to a lesser extent inside Martha's head. TEA is a very internalized book, dealing with Long's search for Zen enlightenment. >> THE BOOK OF KELLS was a step back toward the over-used--in >>this case, the Celtic. While I agree that Celtic mythology may >>have a certain appeal for someone named MacAvoy, I personally am >>getting somewhat tired of the current epidemic of Celtic and >>pseudo-Celtic fantasy covering the shelves in the science >>fiction/fantasy sections these days. Don't get me wrong. MacAvoy >>does it well, but I question the necessity of doing it at all >>these days. An earlier reply to e.c.Leeper questioned that reviewer's use of the word 'necessity' above. Ignoring that rhetorical blunder [as I believe it to be], I agree with Evelyn: I am tired of Celtic mythology. I am particularly tired of writers who write hack fiction, but manage to sell it solely because it's set in Wales [or Scotland or whatever]. I don't think MacAvoy was doing this. MacAvoy is no hack. But I found nothing new in the Book of Kells -- her use of a Celtic setting in no way advanced the plot, the characters, or the action. And for me it carried connotations of 'hack' that I could not shake. >It's MacAvoy's humanity that keeps me reading her, not her "Celtic >fantasies" Hear, hear! This was the saving grace of KELLS. I did NOT find it anywhere in ROPE, which is why ROPE disappointed me so much. >> That brings us back to TWISTING THE ROPE. Martha Macnamara >>and Mayland Long are back, all right, but they're now the managers >>of a touring Celtic folk group. [...] It is, rather, a murder >>mystery that needn't have been fantasy at all. It's a >>well-written murder mystery, true... > >Perfectly true (and I'm glad you admit her skill). But why must >this be a criticism? It is not the function of fiction to adhere >to your classifi- cations, it is the function of your >classfications to describe fiction. Why should it be forbidden to >write a novel with elements of more than one genre? Not forbidden by any means. I would not forbid the hacks from writing bad pseudo-Celtic fanasy-trash. However, I feel that if a writer CAN mix genres well, s/he should. If it cripples the book, however, then it is a mistake. In the case of ROPE, I feel MacAvoy blew it. It is, to me, unfulfilling as a mystery, and it is simply NOT fantasy. The fantasy elements are IGNORED completely -- they have little that I can see with the plot to do. [Parse that, I dare you.] And worst of all, there was NO character development. None. Especially among the major characters. And I found two hundred pages worth of Long having a miserable cold to be very unpleasant to read. I really disliked it. >I wish more authors spent as much time making their characters real >and believable and sympathetic as MacAvoy does Yes. And I wish MacAvoy spent more time doing something WITH them. So: TEA gets four and a half out of five from me; KELLS gets two out of five. I will not rate ROPE, as I don't think I'm impartial enough to rate it on its own merits. If you see anything new on a shelf by R. A. MacAvoy, odds are in your favor. Buy it. Thomas Cox ...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 86 05:31:01 GMT From: utah-gr!donn@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: TWISTING THE ROPE by R. A. MacAvoy Stephen Hutchison, in response to Evelyn Leeper: >... So, you've read several other books using Celtic mythology, SO >WHY SHOULD MacAvoy have to not write one, just because OTHER people >have already? Because a novel with a different setting might be more original? Just a suggestion. >Feh. With this attitude, why should Heinlein continue to >write? Or Ellison? Or Asimov, Niven, Pournelle, etc. ... You got me.* Speaking of originality, the cover art for TWISTING THE ROPE looks strikingly similar to the cover art for the Oregon album OUT OF THE WOODS. I checked the signatures on the paintings and they aren't the same, although I suppose the artist may have changed their name. I like the album version better, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn * Couldn't resist. I'm just being facetious here -- certainly you can argue about how original these authors' works are. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 86 01:36:00 GMT From: mic!d25001@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: TWISTING THE ROPE by R. A. MacAvoy >Sure, a topic can be done to the saturation point, and knock-off >cheap shoddy imitations on a topic can be done by the thousands, >but that should not mean that it cannot be done. I suspect that a reviewer or critic reaches saturation point more quickly and reacts more forcefully because he or she HAS to read the book, even though thoroughly sick of the thing. Why do you think that good reviewers and critics eventually either give it up or become incredibly cranky? Carrington Dixon UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!mic!d25001 ------------------------------ Date: 30 Sep 86 00:23:58 GMT From: wales@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Any more McCollum LIFE PROBE sequels? Does anyone know whether Michael McCollum is planning to write any more novels in the series he started with LIFE PROBE and PROCYON'S PROMISE? Although I did enjoy his latest book, ANTARES DAWN, I was disappointed because I had been hoping for a LIFE PROBE sequel, which it of course is not. I posted this same question a couple of months ago, and the most anyone could say at the time was that something might be known after the recent SF convention (Worldcon?). Rich Wales UCLA Computer Science Department +1 213-825-5683 3531 Boelter Hall Los Angeles, California 90024 wales@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU ...!(ucbvax,sdcrdcf,ihnp4)!ucla-cs!wales ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 86 08:48:07 edt From: firth@sei.cmu.edu Subject: Sagan's Contact Contact, by Carl Sagan Sorry, this book disappointed me, so this is a rather negative review. **** Spoiler Warning **** The title says it. This book is about the first contact of us peasants with Alien Intelligences. Almost everything in the book seems very, very familiar. Dedicated scientists with radio telescopes are scanning the skies. They scan and scan. Grumbles from colleagues who want to use the equipment for something else. Money worries. Will they shut us down? Then, suddenly, POW - the signals come in. Prime numbers from Vega, yet. Political worries. Should we tell the Russians? Should we tell the UN? Unfortunately, the earth turns on its axis, so international cooperation is necessary if we are to listen full time. So the scientists simply tell all their colleagues by electronic mail, and the politicians realise pretty quickly this was the right thing to do (!) Then more message is found. Pages of binary code, meaning something very important. It turns out *** SPOILER WARNING #2 **** the message is instructions for building "a machine" of some kind. Not a female android, but a dodecahedron, with five chairs inside. Should we build the machine? Is it a trap? Is it a weapon? Who gets to sit in it? So the US and the USSR try to build the machine and sort of foul up. The real engineering work is done by private industry under the control of a crazed billionaire who isn't called Harriman. It gets built. Five people get into it. It travels through wormholes to Vega. Five explorers find themselves in constructed environment talking to Super Intelligent Beings who look like old friends. They go back to earth. Nobody believes them, but one feels our place in the Galactic Community is somehow secure. Now, maybe Carl Sagan hasn't read The Andromeda Experiment, The Man Who Sold the Moon, 2001 - a Space Odyssey, and the other books from which plot, action and events seem to have been blatantly ripped off. Maybe he thought this up quite independently. But I still think the novel pretty bad. There is no real conflict, for one thing. I don't mean fighting, I mean different valid viewpoints leading to plot tension, excitement &c. Most of the book reads like a school history novelisation, where everything happens in an orderly manner and everyone is sweet reason. Then, the aliens are a cop-out. They have no discernable alienness. Instead, we get the boring stuff about fundamentalists, millenarians, atheistic godless scientists, all upset or elated over the fact that We Are Not Alone. The only attempt to analyse what such contact would do to us and our society is again very familiar - in the face of the unknown our local animosities die down and World Peace creeps slowly in. The book ends with a "cosmic disclosure" that I shan't reveal, but by that time it was all very boring. The story slipped down well enough in an evening, so maybe for a free evening or a long aeroplane journey, it's appropriate. But at the end I felt nothing had really happened. Thank you for reading this far. Robert Firth ------------------------------ Date: 29 Sep 1986 23:54 EDT (Mon) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> Subject: Jinian Star-Eye I actually found that one a bit of a disappointment. It seemed like Tepper had discovered that all her books didn't fit together as well as she intended and was squeezing and straining to make them all fit. For example, we learn early on (in the Peter set) that the ship came from Earth because of the Monster, Didir, who could read mines. It's been a while since I read the books, but it seems to me that Didir confirms this later, and that her mind-reading ability came long before Lom got involved. Later on, in Jinian, all this changes around, and it just felt to me that the justifications were somewhat flimsy. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Sep 86 16:05:05 GMT From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach; Lord of the From: OtherRealms) Subject: Re: St. Germain (was Re: Search for Sadgeman) >> I am looking for any novels, novellas, short stories etc. about a >> vampire called Sadgeman. The character was created by Chelsea >> Quinn Yarbro I have heard the the books are out of print. Is >> this true? > > That's "St. Germain," *not* "Sadgeman." The books are (in the > order they were written): > 1 Hotel Transylvania > 2 The Palace > 3 Blood Games > 4 Path of the Eclipse > 5 Tempting Fate > 6 Saint-Germain Chronicles (collection of short stories) > > At least some of them are in print. They are currently out of print except for the Science Fiction Book Club versions, which are advertised every once in a while. On the GOOD side, Beth Meacham at Tor books has bought all of the books except for Tempting Fate (NAL still owns the option for that book, but Tor has the option to buy it when the NAL contract expires) and will be reprinting them starting next year. Tor has also contracted with Yarbro for a number of new books based on Olivia, the first of which will be out in late 1987. Wonderful books, I'm glad to see them back in print. chuq ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 86 00:15:01 GMT From: GIZ@PSUVM.BITNET Subject: Search for CC MacApp/Carroll M. Capps 'Way back in the forgotten past, there was a few books published by an author with the (pseudo)name of C.C. MacApp and/or Carroll M. Capps. You may have heard or read of them: "Worlds of the Wall" "Recall not Earth" "Secret of the Sunless World" "Prisoners of the Sky" If you know of any others or any info on the writer, please post or send to: Jeff Ganaposki (814) 865-3405 GIZ@PSUVM.BITNET ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 6 Oct 86 0912-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #328 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Oct 86 0912-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #328 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 6 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 328 Today's Topics: Books - Zelazny (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Sep 86 17:56:41 GMT From: paul@mit-amt.MIT.EDU (Paul Dworkin) Subject: Opinions on Amber (spoiler, long) What follows is a bit of a ramble. If you're not into Amber, skip it. It's been a while since I read the Amber series, but at the time, I thought I had the history worked out: My impression was that Dworkin was out wandering in grey land one day (before Amber, there was no shadow to walk in), and came across the unicorn who had the Jewel on her horn (HER origin is definitely unknown). Since this was before Amber, all was chaos, and anything was possible: they had an affair and Oberon was produced. Dworkin was playing with the Jewel one day and found this pattern. He found that you could draw the thing on the ground and he did so. This made Amber pop up, Rebma, shadow, etc. He and Oberon moved in. I got the feeling they weren't too well liked at the Courts even before Amber existed. Imagine it: everything is chaos, and then one day everybody looks out their windows and there's this big blotch of law way out thataway (projected by the pattern at it's center). Exploration proves the stuff to be thick or dangerous to chaos types. Imagine that you are a shape-shifter and you get into a place that requires you to be only one thing and whose rules are immutable (maybe they found it painful). Anyway, a lot of the chaos types swear eternal dedication to annihilating the stuff, and meanwhile Dworkin thumbs his nose from inside saying 'nya, nya, you can't get me!'. Shapeshifting: Dworkin and Oberon can shapeshift because they are both born of chaos (chaos = mutable). The unicorn is also probably a shape-shifter (explains how she and Dworkin did it), but is very shy and just doesn't change shape much. The children of Oberon are not shape shifters because they were born of shadow (i.e. their mothers were from shadow or Amber). They have law and order in their veins and thus can not change. Walking shadow: My impression was that anyone who had both the blood of chaos and shadow can walk in shadow. Dworkin can do it because he drew the thing (Remember though, that he has to 'sketch his way back into his own apartment' in the first book). Perhaps he learned how to draw trumps to allow himself to get around (one day, he tried a portrait and found that it worked too). Maybe Oberon can walk shadow because his mother is connected with the pattern (or maybe he was born after Amber was made?). Shadow types can't shadow walk because they are bound to the shadow they live in, and chaos types can't do it because they have no understanding of how law works. Concerning the link between Oberon and the Unicorn: If mother-son doesn't explains it, then you can probably add incest. Hey, it's a chaotic universe out there. Morality didn't EXIST before the pattern did. Sorry for the length. Paul Dworkin paul@media-lab.mit.edu Media Labs, E15-346 MIT, Boston MA 02137 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 86 10:15:03 edt From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence Raphael) Subject: Amber Unfortunately, Blood of Amber ends on an even worse cliff-hanger than Trumps of Doom, but it is nevertheless a good book. Actually, ToD just ended in the middle of a sequence, more or less the best location in the plot line at that point to stop, but BoA actually does end on a cliff-hanger! As far as the problem of the shadow-traveling Chaos Lords goes, the major problem with consistency can be dispelling by supposing that, unlike the Lords of Amber, masters of the Logrus cannot guide large quantities of troops or establish semi-permenent shadow gates like the masters of the Pattern; this is not contradicted in the last two books (yet). Thus Chaos needed the Black Road in order to send troops against Amber. Or perhaps they were just so stricture-bound, living in their semi-ritualistic way, that they needed an "invitation" to really decide to attack. You will note that no Lord of Chaos ever actually rode against Amber -- they just sent monsters, shadow-troops, etc. They may have felt that the time was not yet ripe, or they may have not been able to present a united front, which is at least hinted at, I think. Also, for quite some time they wanted to keep their hand hidden, acting through Brand, Bleys, and Fiona, until the latter two decided they had had enough. About the shape-shifting ability. It was supposed to die out in the third generation -- remember Corwin's tongue-in-cheek remark "maybe none of us ever tried" (I paraphrase); I presume each and every one of them would have tried to learn to shape-change since they knew it was an ability of their ancestors. Merlin can shape-change because Dara is his mother, but it seems to come a lot less easily for him than for Dara, who could seemingly shift shapes more easily than clothes. As for Oberon and bestiality, surely you meant Dworkin! But even if some physical union (rather than magical) was required to produce Oberon, obviously Dworkin could have shape-changed into an appropriate form (Merlin's speculation in Blood of Amber). Since the Unicorn does seem to be some sort of Avatar or Incarnation of Law, I would suppose something rather less carnal actually occurred.... Where IS Dworkin anyhow? Where did he go after Oberon's funeral? I am interested in hearing speculation as to what is really going on in this second series. I have my own theory, but like Sherlock Holmes, I prefer not to disclose it without further corroboration. However, I do think that the reader has 90-95% of the information needed from these two books to figure out what is happening, or at least to confirm it if told. Who is the Mage of the Flowers? Where is Corwin? Why is a demon-spirit following Merlin around? (Note the resemblance to the demon from the Changeling series) I won't tell if you won't tell.... Laurence Name: Laurence Raphael Brothers Organization: Rutgers - The State University of New Jersey Uucp-Address: topaz!brothers Internet-Address:brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu Bell-Address: {+1 201 932 2706 | +1 201 878 1790} Postal-Address: BPO 29874 CN 1119 Piscataway, NJ 08854 USA ------------------------------ Date: 30 Sep 86 23:09:32 GMT From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: 'blood of amber' SPOILERS! SYSMSH%ULKYVX.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes: >I just picked up "BLOOD OF AMBER" also. It doesn't really answer >very many questions raised by "TRUMPS OF DOOM". Is everybody sure >this is just going to be a trilogy? Anyone aware of what the next >in the series will be? I'm trying to figure out who the masked >wizard is. I assume that this is the key to the whole mess. Could >it be Brand? Perhaps Corwin himself? I'd be interested in hearing >anyone elses thoughts on this via net mail... I just finished my copy... If anything, Blood of Amber raises more questions than it provides answers. No ideas on the wizard yet. I have a hard time believing that Corwin will be brought back as a bad guy, though. I really loved the duel between Merlin and Mask. Merlin's magic seems logical and consistant; I.E., it all stems from mastery of a primal force, and takes time to work. I like the idea of Merlin starting several spells and 'hanging' them on the Logrus with code words for rapid completion. And... his addition to Mask's flower spell was great! "What do you want?" "I want your blood, your body and your soul!" "How about my stamp collection?" Does anyone *not* know the identity of the one-eyed lop-eared wolf? I thought it unusual that Merlin didn't catch on. Zelazny's characters are usually smarter than that. Oh, well. Interesting that he had mastered shape-shifting, but didn't use any Logrus magic against Merlin, implying that he never did collect the nerve to walk the Logrus. Hmm. Perhaps he didn't turn into a wolf, but was turned into one... The end was rather...strange... I think Rinaldo was having fever dreams and they activated his magic. He appears to have the power to do the same trump trick that allowed the wolf to escape... Interesting that he was able to affect reality so close to the pattern. (In Amber itself.) His blithering seemed to be recollections of his defeat at the hands of what's-his-name, the bastard son of Oberon. Either that, or he got well and tried attacking the castle again while Merlin was walking the pattern... I know time at the land of the blue stone moves faster than elsewhere, but I have a hard time believing it moves *that* fast. I agree, there's too much to tie up in one more novel. I would expect another 7 book series. (Oh, joy!!) Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 86 02:00:24 GMT From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: Amber (Spoilers) iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Tim Iverson) writes: >ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes: > First of all, Dworkin created the pattern, not Oberon. Ok, sorry, it's been awhile since I read the first series. >This is made clear in THE HAND OF OBERON, which also explains that >Dworkin inscribed the pattern literally under the noses of the >Chaos Lords and that all of Shadow was then aligned between Amber >and Chaos - somewhat like filings about the poles of a magnet. I suddenly realized there is a similarity between Dworkin and Suhey. I wonder if they're related. >A more interesting questions arises from Corwin's pattern: what >happens to Chaos, Amber, and Shadow when a third pole is added? I dearly hope we find out. In Blood, someone, Fiona, I think, points out that there was more disruption (shadow storms) after the chaos war than in any other time. She thinks it's Corwin's pattern, where Merlin thinks it was a natural instability caused by the war. >>[why can't the children of Oberon shape change?] >This is perhaps explained in BLOOD OF AMBER, where Zelazny seats >us in Merlin's mind as he performs a shape change. Merlin uses the >Logrus to do this. So, perhaps only initiates of "Chaos' pattern" >can shape change. Except that a member of the Court attacks Merlin in wolf form, but doesn't appear to have the other Logrus powers. (Otherwise, why not simply use a heart stopping spell on Merlin, or blast him into Merlin Paste?) Also, what's Rinaldo's source of power? It appears to come from a different source than Merlin's power, otherwise he'd know how Merlin did things and wouldn't need to ask. (Various parts in the book, like when Merlin is lowering Rinaldo into the blue cave.) It would make the most sense if Rinaldo had tapped into whatever Brand had learned to do to turn himself into a "living trump". >This implies that both Dworkin and Oberon have traversed the >Logrus, which makes sense since Oberon commented to Dworkin once >about the rigors of growing up at the Courts. Makes sense. Although he might have been referring to the constant dueling and bickering we hear about in Blood of Amber. >Also, since Brand was able to summon monsters and lighted >cigarettes, presumably, he, too, mastered the Logrus. Hence, the >children of Amber could do so as well. See above. I don't think Brand mastered the Logrus. There's another source of power somewhere, I think. > Merlin's manipulation of the Logrus brings about another >interesting line of investigation. Mainly, if Merlin can use the >Logrus (which is probably just another aspect of the primal >pattern) the way he does, why can't he use the Pattern of Amber >similarly? It seems that Chaosians are much more sophisticated in >the manipulation of their pattern than the Amberites are in theirs. Hummm. It *does* seem that the power of the Logrus has more practical applications... More raw power too, as seen by the Black Road and Merlin's circle of chaos. On the other hand, the first series is told from Corwin's point of view. Corwin had no magic that I know of except the ability to shift shadow. On the other hand, Flora (?), Brand, and possibly Bleys had other powers. Perhaps there *are* ways to use the Pattern to cast spells, and Corwin simply didn't know how. >Surely someone bright enough to build a sentient computer (a.k.a. >Merlin) could see this potential for power and exploit it. Well, I don't think the nobles of either Amber or the Courts were much up on technical things. I think Merlin was the first that thought of melding technology with magic. > Dworkin told Corwin (Dworkin thought that Corwin was >Oberon) in THE HAND OF OBERON that the Unicorn was his mother. >Dworkin is, of course, insane. Maybe. Another question: Has anyone else noticed significance in names? Bleys and Brand came from the redhaired side of the family (bleys=blaze, get it?) and Random was truly a random element in the struggle for the throne. There are probably others. Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 86 19:21:15 GMT From: 6080626@PUCC.BITNET (Adam Barr) Subject: Walking in Shadows First of all, is Blood of Amber available in paperback, or just hardcover? I only found out that the first book (in the second series) existed this summer (I'm talking about Trumps of Doom if that was too confusing). Also, did anyone see the cover of ToD in hardback (not the paperback one with Merlin looking magical or whatever). I heard that it looked too much like the cover of Brother Assassin by Fred Saberhagen and was successfully sued for copyright infringement. (At least I think it was ToD...the cover of Brother Assassin is a guy in a cowl with half a human face and half a machine-gear face...what this has to do with Amber I don't know). As for walking in shadow, I always thought it was something you gained by walking the pattern (plus you had to have "the blood of Amber" in you, but if you didn't have that the pattern would kill you). I remember stories of young Amber princes, after walking the pattern for the first time, being so excited that they walked off in shadow and didn't reappear for 5 years or whatever. This is sort of supported by the fact that Corwin, for all his lineage, cannot walk in shadow when his memory is lost, but as soon as he walks the pattern he can do it. I also think that the Unicorn is the guardian of the pattern, and appears whenever the pattern is in danger, to protect it. That's why she guides Corwin and Ganelon to the primal pattern. Of course since Ganelon is Oberon, maybe he just conjured up the unicorn so that Corwin would follow it, since Corwin might not believe it if Ganelon just said "Just follow me, I'll lead you to a primal pattern which even you don't know exists". I'm not sure about Dworkin. When Corwin goes back to his cell and goes through Dworkin's drawing of his study (remember, that is when he finds the Courts of Chaos trump), Dwokrin appears, and after some chatting Dworkin tells him to go, and as he is leaving he sees Dworkin's hand or something, and says something like "Whatever it was, it wasn't human". So Dworkin and the Unicorn is not too strange, since we have no guarantee that human is Dworkin's real shape. May we meet again in Amber (is that what they say?)! Adam Barr P.S. Of course what should I know, I was on my third reading before I figured out where the name Rebma came from... ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 6 Oct 86 0936-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #329 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Oct 86 0936-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #329 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 6 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 329 Today's Topics: Films - 2001: A Space Odyssey (2 msgs) & Beastmaster & The Fly & Japanese Films (5 msgs) & Sinbad (5 msgs) & Remakes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 01-Oct-1986 0909 From: karger%ultra.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Re: Voice of HAL-9000 >> According to my foggy memory, Douglas Rains was a RAF Air Traffic >> Control Officer picked because of his voice. No prior acting >> experience whatsoever, and I don't know if he has done anything >> else. Douglas Rain, the voice of HAL-9000 was a quite distinguished Shakespearean actor, prior to his work in 2001. He appeared frequently at the Royal Canadian Shakespeare festival in Stratford, Ontario. I particularly recall him playing Prince Hal in Henry IV (parts I and II) and King Henry in Henry V, a couple of years before 2001 came out. As far as I know, he still plays Shakespearean parts, but much older characters now, rather than Prince Hal. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Oct 86 09:45:26 GMT From: well!singer@caip.rutgers.edu (Jonathan Singer) Subject: Re: Voice of HAL-9000 I recently heard a tape of some of the first computer-synthesized voice stuff, from 1963 or so, and was shocked to hear the machine singing "Daisy". The fellow who played the tape assured us that it was, in fact, the source from which the singing in '2001' was derived. (Not that they used that tape or anything, but that they did "Daisy" in honor of, or following from, that work.) Anyone got any comment? (The guy who played the tape was Connie Willis's husband, Courtney. He is a science teacher at, I think, the highschool level, and was doing a demo of some fun things at a tiny con in Colorado Springs.) Cheers Jon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 86 08:46:07 EDT Subject: Beastmaster From: BARBER%PORTLAND.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Wayne Barber) >> Did anyone watching the Marc Singer movie "The Beastmaster" >> either: >> 1) notice the similarity to a certain Andre Norton >> 'juvenile' of the same name; or >> 2) notice any official credit to Ms. Norton for said >> resemblance? > > This needs to get added the list of commonly asked questions; it's > been up at least four times this last year. Yes, the title was > the same. No, the film wasn't based on the book. No, Norton got > no credit (I don't think you can copyright one-word titles > anyway). From what I understood of the hype that showed up in the magazines when The Beastmaster first came out, the director *did* get the idea for the movie from the Andre Norton book. But after starting a script, he decided he could make a better story. I seem to recall he wanted to make it more appealing to adults. I don't recall the name of the director/writer, but he was the same person who made Phantasm, an above-average low-budget horror movie. Wayne Barber ------------------------------ Date: 30 Sep 86 09:09:39 PDT (Tuesday) From: pmacay.PA@Xerox.COM Subject: More on The Fly >The special effects were necessary to the story, to my way of >thinking anyway. Consider the scene where Seth's ear falls off and >Veronica hugs him (and everyone in the audience says "Eugh"). This >scene, for me, captures the essence of the film quite nicely: even >though he's changing into some horrible monster she still loves >him. I'll agree with this point, this scene was very effective. That she should be repulsed, but isn't, because of her love for him. But here he was just wearing some make-up, gruesome as it was, it was necessary. But come on, the scene where he's pulling off his finger nails, having his morning donut, melting hands and feet off the guy with the fly swatter (flies don't really do that, do they?), etc.. Also the science wasn't very good here, maybe they were trying to follow the feel of the original in that here's a scientist creating some really far out technology on his own. They do try and explain this, but why do the booths have to look like they were designed for a Macy's display, they should have looked more practical and less like matching flower vases. Other points have been made before on this DL, like flies have a high strength to body weight ratio only because of their mass. And if a fly was as large as a human they wouldn't be as strong, walk on ceilings etc. And to regurgitate all that substance to disolve one donut is a little wasteful. I realize your supposed to believe the movie for what it's trying to portray, and not say to yourself 'that can't happen' but it just seems like there was more effects than storyline. When I said; >I thought Gene Siskel said it best, 'Why do they remake great films >that can never possibly be as great as the original. Why dont they >remake lousy films with a good premise and improve on them.' This was not said concerning 'The Fly', Gene said it about some other remake, I just thought it applied here. And I still wouldn't recommend this movie. Pete ------------------------------ Date: 22 Sep 86 04:54:00 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Japanese films (Godzilla) >Umm. These movies look quite a bit different from an american >perspective. There is a tendency to reedit the film, depending on >the market. I'm pretty sure that Mr. Burr was NOT in the original >(japanese version) of Godzilla (I forget what Godzilla is in >Japanese. Does anyone know why his name was changed for the >American market?). As previously discussed, Burr was not in GOJIRA. As for why the name changed, oriental words are often mutilated when transliterated into English. I still don't know how Beijing, Peking, and Peping can all be transliterations of the same city name. I guess in this case, they also thought that Godzilla was easier to pronounce. >Someone told me that in the Japanese version of King Kong vs >Godzilla, Godzilla wins. Apparently the belief was that American audiences would want an American monster to win and Japanese audiences would want the Japanese monster to win. There wasn't much to shoot. Just one scene in which the victor of the battle surfaces and swims off. It is interesting to note that poor Willis O'Brien started the project to be a stopmotion film in which his King Kong fought a monster pieced together from large animals. The story went through a number of changes, then without O'Brien's permission the studio sold the idea to Toho who took out the stop-motion and the need for a newly created monster. This was one of the two great disappointments of the end of O'Brien's life. (The other was the fact that after Fox hired him to work on the new LOST WORLD, he discovered they were going to use lizards and had hired him only for the publicity it would bring.) >This isn't limited to monster films. There is apparently a series >of films about a blind swordsman (Zatoichi). China also apparently >has a series of films about a one-armed swordsman. There is a film >in which these two heroes meet. In the Japanese version, the >Japanese swordsman wins. In the Chinese, the Chinese wins. I can't believe that they would kill off Zato-ichi, though. In ZATO-ICHI MEETS SANJURO there is a final confrontation between the two, but neither is killed. (Another digression, I wonder if anyone has ever compared the Japanese ronin Zato-ichi with the comic book character Daredevil?) Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 86 01:13:17 EDT From: FULIGIN%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Peter E. Lee) Subject: Godzilla In issue #303, Dave Rickel asked what the Japanese name for Godzilla is. Every Japanese t-shirt, toy, video tape, album, movie poster, and other piece of merchandising for the character has carried the name 'Gojira', which is about as close to 'godzilla' as you can get in that language... Unless the original name was changed in Japan at some point to coincide more closely with the American moniker, I would guess that our name for the character is just an anglisized version of the original name... Peter Lee Fuligin%UMASS.Bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 86 17:07:26 GMT From: milano!wex@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Godzilla I am told that the original Godzilla movie -- as shown in Japan -- was written as an allegory about what happened to Japan at the end of WWII (unknown thing invades, destroys cities at random, military are helpless...) I am also told that it was changed substantially for American release (not just cut). Does anyone have any info about this? Know where I can get a copy of the original? Alan Wexelblat ARPA: WEX@MCC.ARPA or WEX@MCC.COM UUCP: {seismo, harvard, gatech, pyramid}!ut-sally!im4u!milano!wex ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1986 21:14 CDT From: a.d. jensen <UD040164%NDSUVM1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> Subject: Old monster movies My personal favorite Godzilla 'thriller' was the one in which he did battle with Monster Zero from 'planet X.' Real choker -- ship of American and Japanese scientists goes to the newly discovered orb located on the back side of Jupiter (!) and which has been named Planet X, probably for lack of anything better to call it. At any rate, upon arriving at 'the planet', they are greeted by the locals, who also call their home 'planet X'. Guess we all think alike in this universe, huh? Sure would like to meet that screen writer... :-) a.d. jensen University of North Dakota ud040164%ndsu1.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 4 Oct 86 15:40:12 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Zato-ichi [was re: Japanese films (Godzilla)] > From: mtgzz!leeper (Mark Leeper) > I can't believe that they would kill off Zato-ichi, though. In > ZATO-ICHI MEETS SANJURO there is a final confrontation between the > two, but neither is killed. (Another digression, I wonder if > anyone has ever compared the Japanese ronin Zato-ichi with the > comic book character Daredevil?) Denny O'Neil, one-time writer of DAREDEVIL, did. There was a run of issues in which DD went to Japan. In his identity of blind lawyer Matt Murdock, he was set upon by some Japanese thugs. When he started fighting back with his usual skill (he figured no one in Japan knew who he was, so his secret identity was safe), one of the thugs yelled, "Zato-ichi!" and they all ran like hell. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 86 03:55:01 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Name of a Sinbad movie? >I recall as a child seeing a Sinbad movie in which there is >a magician who has placed his heart at the top of a well >defended tower, and who therefore cannot be killed. Part of >the movie involves Sinbad attempting to mount the tower and >kill the heart of the magician. Ah yes! And he had to fight a huge mailed fist to do it. He had to climb a huge rope of incredible size and length. Also at a different point he fights an invisible dragon by watching where the footprints are. CAPTAIN SINBAD was the film. Not a great film, but it had some really good scenes. It did not have Ray Harryhausen SPFX, but I am sure they made it a Sinbad film to trade off the poplarity of 7TH VOYAGE OF SINBAD. It starred Guy Williams, best known for playing Zorro and the father in LOST IN SPACE. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 22 Sep 86 08:45:45 GMT From: jml@cs.strath.ac.uk (Joseph McLean) Subject: Re: Name of a Sinbad movie? >I believe this was the first, and in my opinion, the best, Ray >Harryhausen Sinbad Movie "The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad". This film >dates from the late '50's. No,it certainly was not "The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad".In fact it wasn't even a Sinbad film,but simply a fantasy film.Very good it was as I recall. But I never found out what it was called. Sorry I can't be of more positive help. jml ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 1986 1221-PDT (Friday) From: berman@vaxa.isi.edu (Richard Berman) Subject: Sinbad Movie A short while ago someone posted a query about a Sinbad movie in which the bad guy is a magician who keeps his heart in a box in a very well guarded tower, so that he is unkillable. Another person said this was "The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad". This is incorrect. I have seen both movies (the first one once as a child, and "7th" a number of times). They are not the same. I too would appreciate the title because I have often wished to see this movie again. In the unknown movie, the magician is quite fat, and at one point Sinbad runs him through with a curved scimitar, but to no avail. He then thrusts several more into the magican who just laughs. I remember one great scene when Sinbad decides to go to the tower and when we first see the tower it is from a great distance, beyond a hot, smoking hellish land that seems rough with hills. There are a lot of magical dangers Sinbad overcomes along the way, and THIS is the story, not the various occurences on the ship and islands of "7th voyage". Anybody????? RB ------------------------------ Date: 27 Sep 86 16:24:55 GMT From: ames!barry@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Sinbad Movie > In the unknown movie, the magician is quite fat, and at one point > sinbad runs him through with a curved scimitar, but to no avail. > He then thrusts several more into the magican who just laughs. I > remember one great scene when Sinbad decides to go to the tower > and when we first see the tower it is from a great distance, > beyond a hot, smoking hellish land that seems rough with hills. > There are a lot of magical dangers Sinbad overcomes along the way, > and THIS is the story, not the various occurances on the ship and > islands of "7th voyage". > > Anybody????? CAPTAIN SINBAD (1962), starring Guy Williams, dir. Byron Haskin. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Oct 86 06:35:12 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Name of a Sinbad movie? CAPTAIN SINBAD (1963) MGM color 81 min. Directed by Byron Haskin who also directed WAR OF THE WORLDS and ROBINSON CRUSOE ON MARS. Spfx by Lee Zavitz. Starring Guy Williams. Not connected with the Harryhausen Sinbad films. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 4 Oct 86 15:14:28 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Gene Siskel and remakes From: deneb!u552434981ea (Bryan McDonald) > I thought Gene Siskel said it best, 'Why do they remake great > films that can never possibly be as great as the original. Why > dont they remake lousy films with a good premise and improve on > them.' I remember hearing Siskel make that remark, and it was while reviewing RETURN TO OZ. It was a ridiculous statement to make at the time. First, and he admitted this, RETURN TO OZ was not a remake of the MGM classic. Fine, so then why rant about remakes? Second, and the problem with his (and Ebert's) review of RETURN TO OZ was that while on one hand, they didn't like remakes of classics, they were upset by the fact that RETURN TO OZ wasn't just like THE WIZARD OF OZ. That's what you call a contradiction. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 7 Oct 86 0855-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #330 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Oct 86 0855-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #330 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 7 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 330 Today's Topics: Television - Anderson & Planet of the Apes (3 msgs) & Blake's 7 & Phantom Empire (3 msgs) & The Phoenix & Secret Agent Man & Anthology Shows ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Sep 86 20:24:08 GMT From: dbmk1@dev.heuristix.co.uk (Derek Bergin) Subject: Re: Old SF-TV Shows jason@hpcnoe.UUCP (Jason Zions) writes: >But they had some great designs and some terrible designs for their >equipment. More marionation trivia ... Actually the reason for the awkward designs of many of the vehicles was the quality of cameras available. Because this wasn't as high as the Andersons and the model makers would have liked the models had to be pretty big. Fine for Thunderbirds where the same models were used a lot, but for some of the later shows there were many exploding models - which took about 6-8 weeks EACH to make if they were the fine detailed ones. The exploding ones were put out in about 3-4 days. Derek (dbmk1@heur1.uucp) {backbone}!mcvax!ukc!stc!heur1!dbmk1 ------------------------------ Date: 1 October 1986 11:31:20 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson) Subject: Planet of the Apes TV series A while ago I saw a series of "Planet of the Apes" movies that seemed to be made-for-TV. They were much like the original "Apes" movies, with a pair of astronauts crash-landing on the ape-dominated future Earth. One of the astronauts was named Burke (I forgot the other's name). They had a disk containing their ship's telemetry, and were searching for a computer to analyze the data and possibly find a way back to their own time. The last movie of the series ("Farewell to the Planet of the Apes") did not say whether the astronauts ever found a way back or not. Does anyone else remember this series (there were only five movies/episodes), and know what became of the astronauts? Carlo Samson U09862%uicvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 86 08:02:30 GMT From: gds@sri-spam.ARPA (The lost Bostonian) Subject: Re: Planet of the Apes TV series I remember the series, however I don't remember the name of the other astronaut. They never made it back. In the last episode, a human was attempting to learn how to fly, and a female chimpanzee wanted to use his ideas to drop bombs on the gorilla camps and troops. Galen (the chimpanzee who befriended the astronauts) fell in love with the female chimpanzee briefly, but became unhappy with her when he found out what she was up to. As punishment, Galen and the inventor of the hang-gilder (with some help from the astronauts) had to test-fly the glider off a cliff. The glider worked, but they flew out of range of the apes' guns. The series was based on the west coast, in the LA area, I believe. There was a Dr. Zaius in the series played by Maurice White (same as in the movies). gregbo ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 86 13:39:50 GMT From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone) Subject: Re: Planet of the Apes TV series The Astronauts were Pete Burke and Alan Virdon. They teamed up with the ape Galen. The series lasted about 13 episodes. 10 of them have been put together in pairs to make 5 movies. The last episode was with a hang glider made to escape the police. This was later incorperated into the movie Farwell to the Planet of the Apes. They never did get home. I still have the novels of this series at home somewhere. It started out as a very popular series, but it flopped after a few shows. I think it was up against something that was a very high rated show. And like the Invisible Man, it was preempted so often, it was a surprise when the show was actually on. Something else I forgot. The gorilla police chief Urko was played by James Gregory who was Dr Adams in the ST episode Dagger if the Mind, and played inspector Lugar on Barney Miller. I also think that Mark Lenard (aka Sarek) also was on this show. It took place in the San Fransisco area. They visited Oakland, and the BART system was seen in one of the first shows. Phil Paone ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 86 17:01:03 GMT From: cuuxb!wbp@caip.rutgers.edu (Walt Pesch) Subject: Blake's 7: the character of Avon jean@hrcca.UUCP (Jean Airey) writes: >> From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson) >> >> 3) When Dayna first met Avon (in "Aftermath", I belive), she >> kissed him out of curiosity, to which Avon said something like >> "I hope your curiosity isn't easily satisfied." I then >> expected some sort of romance to develop between them. >> However, in the episodes after that (that I've seen so far), >> nothing happens. Did the writers just forget about it, or does >> something eventually happen between them? >> >Nothing happened on the show. Fan writers have some theories :-). >Paul Darrow commented on that same question "Avon doesn't like >girls, he likes *women*. He doesn't have time to teach her the >terrors of the universe." He does, however, feel responsible for >her (something he's not always comfortable with!). Begging to differ (Please!!! Let me differ!), I'll take a different viewpoint. The character of Avon has spent a lot of time building in his mind a very high and lofty tower, separating and elevating him above EVERYONE else. And he really doesn't care about anybody but himself. This is evidenced quite regularly in the show in his aloofness and basic attitude of superiority. (As an aside, he might be accused of the disorder of egomania, but he is perhaps justified in his view of his own superiority in terms of the mistakes that he has seen his companions et al make and which he hasn't made. Can you really be considered an egomaniac when it is justified? Avon would have made a great "puppeteer" - perhaps he was...) Now can you see this character opening himself up to another person, as he would be forced to do in any raletionship? (At least as I have painted him.) I really can't. Avon is a loner. Let's say 'Avon doesn't care for girls, he really doesn't care for anyone/anything except himself.' The one time that totally disagrees with this is the episode featuring Horizon, whose title I forget. In it Avon SHOULD have said Goodbye. (Without needing the rationalization of the three pursuit ships closing in.) Or actually, he wouldn't have even have said that, it would have simply been 'Zen, plot and execute an evasion course.' And the series would have been over. Which is why I suppose that the script writer didn't do it... Walt Pesch ihnp4!cuuxb!wbp ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 86 12:38:49 GMT From: netxcom!rkolker@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker) Subject: Re: Old SF TV shows From: todd%sarah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM >At the risk of dating myself, I haven't yet noticed mention of >(ta-da) PHANTOM EMPIRE, a show I remember fondly from my extreme >youth in the '50s. Any other grey-beards out there with a better >recollection? I don't remember the original, but a revival was attempted in 1979 under the name "The Secret Empire". It was one of four shows that each ran once a month under the group title "Cliff Hangers". The science fiction/western told the story of Marshal Jim Donner's adventures in the futuristic underground city of Chimera, ruled by the evil Emperor Thorval (Mark Lenard). The western scenes were in B&W, the underground stuff in color. Cliff Hangers died before the serial reached its end. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Dr. Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Oct 86 20:40 EST From: S6VYJE%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: re: Phantom Empire I was rather shocked to see the message about a TV show called PHANTOM EMPIRE. I am not at all familiar with the show, but I do know that in the 1940's, a group called the Phantom Empire, forerunners or siderunners or comrades or something of the Ku Klux Klan, were a visible force for bigotry and racism. In fact, the Phantom Empire resorted to violence when black workers began moving to Detroit for the war effort. I am shocked that people would have forgotten by the 1950's of such a terrible thing. Greg Morrow s6vyje@irishmvs.bitnet (@wiscvm.wisc.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 4 Oct 1986 11:35:06-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Old SF TV shows (THE PHANTOM EMPIRE) > From: todd%sarah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Bill Todd) > At the risk of dating myself, I haven't yet noticed mention of > (ta-da) PHANTOM EMPIRE, a show I remember fondly from my extreme > youth in the '50s. > > Even then, it may have been in re-runs - or perhaps derived from > episodes in a medium preceding widespread use of television > itself. In memory, at any rate, it comes across as OLD (i.e., > somewhat hokey), even for that time. You're correct about the source. THE PHANTOM EMPIRE (aka GENE AUTRY AND THE PHANTOM EMPIRE) was a 12-part movie serial from 1935. It was never a tv show per se. On the other hand, there was a show from 1979 called CLIFFHANGERS!, an anthology show whose gimmick was to show 20-minute episodes of three separate serials each week. One that I can remember was "The Secret Empire", a rip-off of THE PHANTOM EMPIRE (creator Kenneth Johnson, also responsible for THE BIONIC WOMAN, THE INCREDIBLE HULK, and V, claimed that he never knew of the original serial; and I'm Santa Claus). Another fantasy serial on the show was "The Curse of Dracula", starring Michael Nouri, star of the new tv show DOWNTOWN. "Take that surface-man Autry to the Lightning Room!" --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Filmography is my pastime"> ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 86 14:20:05 GMT From: dartvax!chelsea@caip.rutgers.edu (Karen Christenson) Subject: Re: The Phoenix >>I too remember "The Phoenix". The pilot movie was rather >>strange... Too bad the show was axed; I really wanted to know >>what his mission was. > >Wasn't his mission to find another (female) being from his planet >trapped in a pyramid somewhere? As I recall, he was looking for a woman. She had been left with another Indian civilization, one that built mounds, I assume. He had a flat rock with a pattern on it that was a key to her location and he travelled around the country to various mound sites. I think in the first episode after the pilot, he actually found the placed where she was supposed to be buried, opened it up, and discovered she'd been moved. It was not clear whether he was mistaken in the first place or she had in fact been moved by some dark force (took the shape of a goat once, I think) that was opposing him. Lots and lots of holes in the concept of the entire series, but neat stuff anyway. Judson Scott, of course, played Khan's son in STII, but he wasn't listed in the credits because of an agent/contract mix-up. A lot of the interplay between Khan and his son got cut out (one scene they discussed literature). It would have been interesting to see Khan the parent in action - add some depth (or would that be breadth) to his character. Karen Christenson ...!dartvax!chelsea ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 86 22:10:58 GMT From: pur-phy!piner@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Piner) Subject: Re: Questioning "The Prisoner" crew@decwrl.UUCP (Roger Crew) writes: >Prior to doing The Prisoner, Patrick MacGoohan starred in the >series Secret Agent (which I don't believe has ever been shown in >the US) in which he plays a James-Bond-type character working for >what I assume was some branch of British Intelligence (be it MI-5/6 >or whatever...) The "Secret Agent" was shown in the US, at least in Indiana. A great show too. The theme song, "Secret Agent Man" was a hit on the radio. "They've given you a number and taken away your name." Ok, trivia fans, who did the song? Richard Piner piner@galileo.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 86 03:50:30 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Review: TV Anthologies 1986 TV Season Anthologies Comments by Evelyn C. Leeper Well, I've watched the three shows that are still running and have started their seasons: AMAZING STORIES, TALES FROM THE DARKSIDE, and TWILIGHT ZONE. ALFRED HITCHCOCK PRESENTS is supposed to return to the USA Network but I haven't been able to locate it yet. HITCHHIKER--HBO's entry in the anthology sweepstakes--hasn't started its new season yet. AMAZING STORIES started off this season much better than they did last year's, but then given the amazingly *bad* episode they started with last year, that wouldn't be difficult. This year's premiere, "The Wedding Ring," was a touching tale of two down-and-outers in Atlantic City who get involved with a wedding ring stolen from a murderess. Danny DeVito and Rhea Pearlman both do excellent jobs. My only objection is to the "parental warning" at the beginning that "some material may not be suitable for children." This seems to be there only to bring in more viewers hoping for the titillating. They will be disappointed. Rate it a +2 on the -4 to +4 scale. TALES FROM THE DARKSIDE presented "The Circus," a fairly predictable story about a weird circus. You know the kind--Ray Bradbury, Charles Finney, and Tom Reamy are the best-known of the authors who have taken a swing at this. This teleplay (by George A. Romero) was based on a story by Sydney J. Bounds. Though predictable, it was well-acted, especially by William Hickey, the actor who played the "godfather" in PRIZZI'S HONOR. Rate it a +1 on the -4 to +4 scale. (If anyone cares, they've also changed the logo style.) TWILIGHT ZONE had two episodes this time: "Once and Future King" and "A Saucer of Loneliness." "Once and Future King," about an Elvis Presley impersonator who goes back in time and meets "The King" was incredibly predictable and, in addition, suffered from the fact that neither the impersonator nor the actor playing Presley looked at all like Elvis Presley. The ending was obvious almost from the beginning. George R. R. Martin did what he could in his teleplay from the story (by an author whose name escapes me), but there wasn't enough new to work with. This gets a -1 on the -4 to +4 scale. "A Saucer of Loneliness" was based on the Theodore Sturgeon story of the same name and starred Shelley Duvall. It was acceptable, I suppose, but lacked whatever the special touch was that made the story so memorable. Although some short stories have translated well to TWILIGHT ZONE episodes, others haven't. My feeling is that comedy translates to the small screen where emotion doesn't. Maybe someone could make Sturgeon's emotion transfer well, but David Gerrold, who wrote this teleplay, is not that person. That's not to say Gerrold is a bad scriptwriter, but this sort of script is not his forte'. This gets a 0 on the -4 to +4 scale. (And the credits still go by too fast for anyone not a graduate of the Evelyn Woods school.) So there you have it. Rumor has it that Spielberg is asking for more scripts for AMAZING STORIES than he can film, so that he can throw out the bad ones. He may even manage to get the series renewed (he's guaranteed by contract to last the season). TWILIGHT ZONE, according to reports at ConFederation, will be further eviscerated (or, some might say, emasculated) by the network and may not last the season. TALES FROM THE DARKSIDE will continue to turn out stylish shows on its miniscule budget (when you have no money, "style" is often the best way to go). And I'll keep watching. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 7 Oct 86 0905-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #331 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Oct 86 0905-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #331 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 7 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 331 Today's Topics: Books - Zelazny (6 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Sep 86 20:10:30 GMT From: loral!dml@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis) Subject: Re: Amber -- WITH MAJOR SPOILERS About the shapeshifting - I don't think Corwin ever really tried, but just took for granted that he couldn't do it. The same probably applies to the others. Dara certainly could, though she had more Chaos than Amber in her heritage so that might not mean much. Here is the way I understood the origins of Amber, Shadow and Oberon: In the beginning, (as much as such things can be said to have a beginning), there was Chaos, and it was without form, but it was NOT void. Rather, it had many things mixed in mind-breaking confusion. Many creatures dwelt in this Chaos, for all things were possible there, and some were greater than others, and could bend the stuff of Chaos to their wills, and the greatest of these were the Lords of Chaos. One of these Lords, not the greatest nor yet the least of them, was Dworkin the renegade. In some manner he encountered the Unicorn and the Jewel of Judgement (for although the orderly progression of Time from future to past was unknown there, still there was a point at which he knew nothing of Unicorn or Jewel, and another point at which he knew much of them) and was fascinated by the perfect Order of the Pattern which he perceived within the Jewel. In some wise he learned the Jewel's power, and began to use it to impose the Pattern within it on the stuff of Chaos. Instantly the other Lords noted his actions, and discerning what he was about, tried to stop him. The Jewel, or the emerging Pattern, balked them, so that they could not reach Dworkin to stop him by force, and their attempts to distract him from his concentration failed also. In due course, Dworkin completed his Pattern, impressing its Form on both the stuff of Chaos and his own being, while simultaneously impressing his being on the Pattern he made. This Pattern then distanced itself from Chaos, but drew out a long streamer of completely new substance, neither Pattern nor Chaos, but partaking of both. Near the Pattern, Order dominated these Shadows while at the other end they resembled Chaos. Then Dworkin fathered Oberon, and the Unicorn was his mother, and Oberon became King of Amber, which was the First Shadow of Dworkin's Pattern. Oberon then took a wife from out of Shadow, and later a few more, and they had eleven sons who were named Osric, Finndo, Brand, Benedict, Eric, Caine, Corwin, Julian, Bleys, Gerard, and Random; and four daughters named Llewellyn, Fiona, Florimel, and Dierdre. All of them, being of Dworkin's blood, shared an affinity for his Pattern, and could walk it without being destroyed. This act reinforced their ability to manipulate the Shadows that sprang from the Pattern, bringing it under conscious control. What this all means is that only Dworkin's descendants can safely walk his Pattern, or its echoes in Amber, Rebma and Tir-na Nog'th, and gain power over its shadows. At the end of Courts of Chaos, only Corwin would have been able to walk the Shadows, if any, cast by his Pattern. Merlin could certainly have been initiated to Corwin's Pattern; though I'm not sure Corwin's brothers and sisters would survive the experience if they tried it. The link holds through at least eight generations of lineal descent (Dara was Benedict's great-great- granddaughter) but it's not clear if it holds for other relationships. Another thing - Corwin walked ALL of Dworkin's Patterns, attuned himself to the Jewel TWICE, used it to inscribe his own Pattern - why don't we see him gaining greater power over Shadow? Maybe he does, but isn't aware of it? Just nits - Zelazny is without a doubt one of the greatest living writers. I wish he'd finish what he starts though. What comes after Madwand? Dave Lewis Loral Instrumentation San Diego {sdcsvax!sdcc3|kontron|crash|gould9}!loral!dml ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 1986 16:21 EDT (Thu) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> To: fai!ronc@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Amber Whoa there. You've got a few things backward. Oberon did not inscribe the first Pattern, Dworkin did. As I recall, Dworkin is a rebel who flees the Courts of Chaos to find a "small island in the midst of Chaos." There he finds the Jewel of Judgement hanging from the neck of the Unicorn. Using the Jewel, he inscribes the Pattern, thus creating Amber. Oberon is Dworkin's son by the Unicorn. This is in either Hand or Sign when Corwin is speaking to Dworkin, who thinks that he is really Oberon shapeshifted, and Dworkin refers to "the Unicorn, thy mother..." Remember, Shadow did not exist until the Pattern did. Shapeshifting: Somewhere toward the end, Corwin asks someone, I think Oberon, but I'm not sure, why it is that he can't shapeshift. The answer, as I recall, was, "Have you ever tried?" ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 86 13:39:00 EDT From: "CHRISTOPHER E. SHULL" <shull@wharton-10.ARPA> Subject: History of the Universe up to _Blood of Amber_ (Zelanzy) fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) asks some questions about the history of the Chaos/Amber universe preceding _Blood of Amber_. In doing so, several points of fact were also mixed up. > ***SPOILERS FOLLOW of the first five Amber books and a minor > spoiler of Trumps of Doom*** > > We find out somewhere in, I think The Hand of Oberon that King > Oberon is from the Courts of Chaos, and Dworkin the mad artist is > Oberon's father, Corwin's grandfather. I think it is established > that Chaos lords have very limited abilities to travel in shadow, > and must either use constructs like the Black Road, or follow an > Amberite through shadow. (Which apparently anyone can do.) > However, the Chaos lords have other powers, like shape shifting > and conjuring. The Amberites move through shadow easily only in the portion of the Universe under the effect of the Pattern. As they get closer and closer to Chaos, they find it more and more difficult to "shift Shadow", because the more Chaotic shadows move and shift by themselves, screwing up the mental-physical arithmetic processes employed. As you suggest below, we readers are left to figure somethings out by ourselves. I suggest that one of them is that the Lords of Chaos can move through these changing shadows very easily, but find it very difficult or impossible to move through the Shadows of Amber. This is because their equivalent to Amber's Pattern is a constantly changing thing. > We find out in Sign of the Unicorn that Amber was created by > Oberon by enscribing the Pattern. Not Oberon, but Dworkin created the Pattern from his own blood. If you recall, the "Black Road" damage to the Pattern was inflicted using the blood of Martin, who was a third generation descendant of Dworkin (out of Random, out of Oberon, out of Dworkin). According to Dworkin, only the blood of the first three generations would have this affect. He also mentioned that the "Black Road" damage had driven him insane, because it was a part of him, and he a part of it (or some such words). > Elsewhere it is stated that the Courts are clear across the other > side of existence from Amber, and represents the farthest an > Amberite can travel in shadow. If the Chaos lords have only > limited travel in shadow, how did Oberon originally travel away > from the Courts to enscribe the Pattern? In all the Amber books, > it's made clear that one can only travel freely in shadow by > walking the Pattern. This brings up a chicken-and-egg question. Shadows cannot exist by themselves -- they need to be cast by something real. Originally the only real thing was Chaos. I got the feeling that there was some strife in Chaos, during or after which the "rebel" Dworkin created the Pattern, while the battle swarmed around him. > Second question. Dworkin and Oberon are shape-shifters, and > apparently anyone from the Courts also have this talent. Why then > don't any of the children of Oberon have this ability? Does > walking the pattern do gene damage? :-) I seem to recall that Dworkin and/or Oberon told Corwin that he too could do it, but that he had just never really tried hard enough. > Thirdly, there seems to be some kind of tie between Oberon and the > Unicorn. Anyone want to speculate? Beastiality? Oberon is the son of Dworkin and the Unicorn. Yup, sounds like beastiality to me, but then again, Dworkin is a shape changer. Hope this was fun and useful. I really loved the Amber series plus the _Trumps of Doom_. I look forward to dredging up the _Blood of Amber_, but my bookstore doesn't have it yet. Christopher E. Shull Shull@Wharton-10.ARPA Decision Sciences Department The Wharton School University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA 19104-6366 215/898-5930 ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 1986 12:34:01-EDT From: clapper@NADC Subject: Re: Amber *** SPOILER WARNING *** fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) writes: >We find out in Sign of the Unicorn that Amber was created by Oberon >by enscribing the Pattern. Elsewhere it is stated that the Courts >are clear across the other side of existence from Amber, and >represents the farthest an Amberite can travel in shadow. If the >Chaos lords have only limited travel in shadow, how did Oberon >originally travel away from the Courts to enscribe the Pattern? In >all the Amber books, it's made clear that one can only travel >freely question. I never really thought about this problem, but didn't Oberon inscribe the initial Pattern in the Courts of Chaos? (I may be fuzzy on that detail.) If he did, I would think he could use that pattern to travel in Shadow. >Second question. Dworkin and Oberon are shape-shifters, and >apparently anyone from the Courts also have this talent. Why then >don't any of the children of Oberon have this ability? Does >walking the pattern do gene damage? :-) Maybe shape-shifting isn't inherited. Perhaps it's merely a function of being born in Chaos. The children of Oberon were born in Amber. They inherited the ability to walk the Pattern, since Oberon created the Pattern and it was attuned to him. Interesting side note: created it. He passes this attunement to his offspring. (Zelazny states that anyone with royal Amber blood can walk the Pattern.) However, does the ability weaken as the bloodline gets further and further from Oberon? Would Random's son, for example, have a more difficult time walking the Pattern than Random did? >Thirdly, there seems to be some kind of tie between Oberon and the >Unicorn. Anyone want to speculate? Beastiality? Once again, the exact detail escapes me, but I remember a passage where Corwin (and Random as well, I think) discover that they are descended from the Unicorn. I think Oberon was the offspring of Dworkin and the Unicorn. As Ron Christian pointed out, Zelazny the Unicorn may also be a shape-shifter who just prefers the shape of the "noble unicorn". Brian M. Clapper (clapper@NADC.ARPA) Naval Air Development Center Warminster, PA ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 1986 15:31 EDT (Fri) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> Subject: Amber Actually, according to BoA, an initiate of the Pattern has the same potential for power as an initiate of the Logrus (with the exception of throwing raw chaos around, although I suspect, from incidents in the first set, that the Pattern can counter that). However, for the most part Oberon's children were never interested in spending the necessary amount of time studying to learn such powers, with the exception of Brand, Fiona, and Bleys. After all, Luke is a sorceror and does not use the Logrus (at least so far as Merlin could tell). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 86 10:39:49 EDT Subject: Amber (Zelazney) From: michael%maine.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Michael Johnson) Ronald O. Christian writes: *** mild spoiler of Amber novels *** >We find out somewhere in, I think The Hand of Oberon that King >Oberon is from the Courts of Chaos, and Dworkin the mad artist is >Oberon's father, Corwin's grandfather. I think it is established >that Chaos lords have very limited abilities to travel in shadow, >and must either use constructs like the Black Road, or follow an >Amberite through shadow. (Which apparently anyone can do.) >However, the Chaos lords have other powers, like shape shifting and >conjuring. Oberon is not from Chaos directly. He has never resided in the Courts of Chaos and was born in Amber, after its creation. None of the Chaos creatures that Corwin fought on the black road were Lords of Chaos (note that Dara, however, was). Only the Lords of Chaos walk the Logrus, thereby giving themselves the ability to manipulate shadows. >We find out in Sign of the Unicorn that Amber was created by Oberon >by enscribing the Pattern. Elsewhere it is stated that the Courts >are clear across the other side of existence from Amber, and >represents the farthest an Amberite can travel in shadow. If the >Chaos lords have only limited travel in shadow, how did Oberon >originally travel away from the Courts to enscribe the Pattern? In >all the Amber books, it's made clear that one can only travel >freely in shadow by walking the Pattern. This brings up a >chicken-and-egg question. The Pattern was inscribed by Dworkin, not Oberon. Before the Pattern was created, there was nothing except for Chaos. So Dworkin went off a long way from the "center" of Chaos (perhaps following the Unicorn) and there inscribed the pattern. This brought into being a universe with two polarities, one of Order and one of Chaos, and also created the shadows of Amber. As I mentioned above, walking the Logrus also gives the ability to manipulate Shadow. >Second question. Dworkin and Oberon are shape-shifters, and >apparently anyone from the Courts also have this talent. Why then >don't any of the children of Oberon have this ability? Does >walking the pattern do gene damage? :-) When Oberon married, he of necessity chose wives from Shadows that lay very close to Amber. Therefore, his wifes were NOT of Chaos, they were creatures of Order (i.e. Amber). Since shape-shifting is a Chaotic talent, it would make sense that those who were partially bred from Order would not have it. Also, the genes of Oberon's wives, while good imitations, were not REAL, they were only imperfect Shadows of the genes of the Chaotic individuals who actually created and lived in the real Amber. >Thirdly, there seems to be some kind of tie between Oberon and the >Unicorn. Anyone want to speculate? Beastiality? The Unicorn is Oberon's mother. The bestiality took place between Dworkin and the Unicorn, though there is some question as to whether you could really call this bestiality, since the Unicorn is a sentient Chaos creature and therefore perfectly capable of shape-shifting in her own right. The Unicorn is obviously a powerful magical creature. Perhaps the physical form of a Unicorn gives her greater magical focus or something. If I remember correctly, Dworkin found the Jewel (I forget its entire name) hanging around the neck of the Unicorn. What he found inside the Jewel inspired him to create the Pattern of Amber from his own blood, thereby bringing into being a macroscopic reflection of the Order that was inherent in the Jewel. The Jewel also gives the wearer much power over the Universe of the Pattern. Now THERE is a chicken or the egg question for you, with a twist. Since the Pattern (in 3 or more dimensions) defines the Universe and the Pattern is inside the Jewel, is the Universe inside the Jewel, or is the Jewel inside the Universe, or what? michael johnson michael@maine.bitnet ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 7 Oct 86 0924-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #332 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Oct 86 0924-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #332 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 7 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 332 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Gravity & Southern Con & The Origin of Fuzzy Pink (3 msgs) & The Origin of Ansible (2 msgs) & Literary Crossreference & Printing History & Typos (2 msgs) & FTL Travel & Impossibilities (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Sep 86 13:40:19 edt From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Gravity I've been plagued (intermittently) for a long time by a couple of questions with which my Physics I course didn't equip me to deal. 1. In "The Planet Fragment" (One of the Jones stories about a bunch of cyborgs 'Zorones' flitting around the galaxy millions of years from now) we encounter an oblong planet. According to Jones, the gravity is much higher at the 'top' (the pole farthest from the center) than at the 'side' (which is closer to the center but where most of the gravitational attraction is lateral, and cancelled out by symmetry). Is he right? (He also has the gravity change suddenly when you round the corner, but we'll ignore that.) 2. There is a strong presumption that Hal Clement's calculations in Mission of Gravity are correct, but I can't duplicate them. Calculation of the polar gravity gives nowhere near 700G (that's a relatively straightforeward integration) unless you assume ridiculous densities, and the centrifugal force at the equator is really not that great--only a few G's. Help, anyone? Dani Zweig ------------------------------ Date: 29 Sep 86 22:26:38 GMT From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu (A Andrews) Subject: DeepSouthCon David Hartwell sold his shorts at DeepSouthCon to raise money for the ill and homeless George Alec Effinger, who recently lost his apartment to fire and who has enormous hospital bills. In an auction by Rusty Hevelin, Hartwell sold his collection of outrageous ties (I bought one!) , his sox (!), and his (external) shorts. The shorts went for $115.00 in a tight bidding war, and the luck (?) female who won also won the right to strip the editor of his precious clothing. Somtow Suchkaritkul, Toastmaster, was on a panel and I asked him the leading question as to why he wasn't married as schedule, at Confederation. His reply would have filled an adventure book--his parents exiled from Thailand, the existence of other families of his father's, and an extraordinary bit about outreageous resume' writing. It's too much fun to miss, so ask him, next con. And don't forget to ask about the Thai carnivorous ducks, and what the English words, "Jewish pumpkin", mean (or sound like) in Thai. (Hint: Netnews etiquette probably forbids those Thai words.) Andy Offutt, Joel Rosenberg, Ken Moore, Maureen, Jody, Murray Porath, and the rest of us had a good time at a relatively relaxa-con, with about only 625 attendees. For Midwesterners reading this (Hi, Anna & Tim!), we'll be at CONTACT in Evansville in mid-October, with David R. Palmer as GOH and Stan Schmidt as Editor GOH, and Tim Zahn as Inevitable Guest. arlan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 86 16:38:02 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Fuzzy Pink is the name given to Marilyn Wisowaty by her roommate at MIT, because of her predilection for pink angora sweaters. (The MITSFS legend has it that X referred to MW as "my fuzzy pink roommate", which got truncated after everybody else at the MITSFS started calling her "fuzzy pink roommate" (this was rather before coed dormitories)). MW married Larry Niven some years later (another part of the legend says that she had no idea that he was filthy rich (one of Niven's ancestors is the Doheny who was involved in the Teapot Dome oil scandal (and after whom a street in LA is named?))) but is still generally known as Fuzzy Pink. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 86 15:41:45 EDT From: "Morris M. Keesan" <keesan@cci.bbn.com> Subject: Fuzzy Pink This is the story as told by Leslie Turek, long-time Boston area fan and chair of Noreascon II. Way back in the mists of recorded time, i.e. some time in the 1960s, Leslie Turek and Marilyn Wisowaty were college roommates. They were also members of MITSFS. Marilyn tended to wear lots of fuzzy pink sweaters (or perhaps just one fuzzy pink sweater a lot of the time). Leslie took to referring to her roommate as "Fuzzy Pink Roommate", and this usage started to catch on. Not being terribly pleased by having male MIT students calling her "roommate", Marilyn managed to convince people to shorten the appellation to "Fuzzy Pink", and the name stuck. Some years later, around 1970, give or take a few years, Marilyn Wisowaty married Larry Niven, changed her name to Marilyn Niven, and moved to Los Angeles (not necessarily in that order), and many people started referring to her as "Fuzzy Pink Niven". I was told recently (at Confederation) by a fan from L.A. that she responds quite cheerfully to the name "Marilyn", but that few people call her that. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Oct 86 09:31:19 GMT From: well!singer@caip.rutgers.edu (Jonathan Singer) Subject: Re: Fuzzy Pink Chip Hitchcock (Hi, Chip!) writes that the person under discussion is still known as Fuzzy Pink. I would like to take partial exception to that. I have not heard anyone address her as anything except "Fuzzy" for quite some time. I don't know where the "Pink" went, but it seems to be mostly gone. Cheers Jon PS - I hope this is not hopelessly out of date. I'm taking them in order. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 86 13:36 EDT From: Mandel%bco@MULTICS.MIT.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Subject: Re: origin of the term "ansible" "Ansible" COULD be from Latin elements, meaning something like "container for a handle"... but I doubt it, unless such a word (or a Latin or Latin-derived form) with that literal meaning got other associations which could reasonably be extended to LeGuin's "invention". My best guess is that, unlike a light-speed message, an ansible message is "answerable" in real time: ask a question, get an answer (rather than) ask a question, your grandchildren get the answer. "Ansible" comes from "answerable". Plausible? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 86 13:41 EDT From: Mandel%bco@MULTICS.MIT.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Subject: Re: origin of the term "ansible" Note that LeGuin has used the uncommon word "answerable" itself. In the Earthsea trilogy, I believe in _A Wizard of Earthsea_, there is a mention of (from memory) "those Answerable Questions that can only be asked by the Patterner in the Immanent Grove." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 86 14:47:31 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: literary xref Cc: hoptoad!farren >>refrain "Are we not men?" during the recitation of the Law by the >>beast-men. The manner of its recitation made it obvious that this >>was the source for the DEVO anthem, Jocko Homo. > >Jeez, what are they teaching in English classes these days? Check >out "The Merchant of Venice", by one William Shakespeare. I think >you'll find a usage of "Are we not men?" that considerably predates >that of the honorable Mssrs. Laughton and Lugosi. Well, yes---or even H. G. Wells, which is more to the point. However... I don't know (-"Bless me, what \are/ they teaching them in schools these days!"- the elderly professor (Digory?) in THE LION, THE WITCH, AND THE WARDROBE), but having studied MoV when I was in school and having recently played the part of Shylock I think this derivation is ridiculous. In his famous speech, Shylock is arguing that Jews are human and should be treated as such (and are entitled to misbehave as such: "...if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?"); in their chant the beast-men are reminding themselves of the constraints on their own behavior that come from being men instead of animals. It's even more ridiculous when you consider Devo's probable influences and the theme of their work. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 86 16:26:34 edt From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Printing History Query Does anyone know whether publishers are under any legal obligation to print accurate printing histories? Or are they just responding to accepted standards? In the past couple of years I've seen more and more reprints being offered as new books. TOR and Baen books are the conspicuous transgressors. This sort of thing comes in three flavors: a) Using the misnomer "a substantially different version" instead of the more accurate "an essentially identical version". (An odd variation of this was Saberhagen's "The Golden People", which was reissued last year. Although it was about half again as long as the original version, I only spotted two 'substantive' differences: the admiral was female instead of male and a comic book became an electronic comic book.) b) Omitting a significant portion of the printing history. c) Changing the title and implicitly offering the book as an original. The book that triggered this posting was "Sweet Dreams, Sweet Princes", a Baen book by Mack Reynolds with some posthumous help from Michael Banks. A substantially different version is supposed to have appeared in Analog magazine in 1964. This is a combination 'a' and 'b'. As nearly as I could tell, this book is virtually identical to the book published under the title "Time Mercenary". (I only spot checked. Since I have TM I wasn't interested in buying SDSP.) So what are the publisher's obligations as far as this kind of disclosure is concerned? Anyone know? Dani Zweig ------------------------------ Date: Fri 3 Oct 86 18:55:23-CDT From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: sad state of proofreading There is a prominent typo that's amused me for a while: The Bluejay Books edition of de Camp's "Rogue Queen" says "Rouge Queen" right on the spine of the book! Anyone know any other such blatant screwups? Russ ------------------------------ Date: 4 Oct 86 17:50:08 GMT From: ihlpl!marcus@caip.rutgers.edu (Hall) Subject: Re: sad state of proofreading On the videotape release of Buckaroo Banzai, they misspelled Banzai on the tape label (they spelled it Bonzai)! Marcus Hall ..!ihnp4!ihlpl!marcus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1986 09:07 EDT From: Andrew T. Robinson <ANDY%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> Subject: FTL travel in Trek novels I have always been fascinated by the ideas of FTL travel presented in various ST novels, such as "The Wounded Sky." In the back of the novel there are several references listed. Some of which obviously do not exist as their publication dates are in the future. However, there were at least two references that were dated before 1986, and at least one of those seems to actually exist although I've not been able procure a copy of it: Richard J. Gott III, "Creation of open universes from de Sitter space," Nature, vol. 295, January 28, 1982. First, the standard method of propulsion in ST is the warp drive, which envelops the starship in a bubble of sub-space where the speed of light is significantly faster than that of our "space." Second, a race develops a drive that generates a point of de Sitter space inside the drive unit. de Sitter space is supposed to be a space of infinite mass and hence no mass, and every point in de Sitter space represents infinite/no mass. Third, in SPOCK MUST DIE, the other (bad) Spock creates a miniature warp-drive in the shuttlecraft by tapping Hilbert space, the space of "continuous creation" where hydrogen nuclei are formed. I have heard from other people that the "spaces" described by the various ST novels have all been postulated by theoretical physicists at one time or another, and do enjoy some currency today. I am curious to know if this is a fact, and if so, can anyone steer me towards any sources of information on these subjects? Also, what is the general opinion on these fictional "theories" for FTL travel? Most discussions of FTL involve the "brute force" method of exceeding the speed of light (i.e., the same way you exceed the speed limit on the interstate). Each of the methods described above provides an alternate and somewhat more subtle way to accomplish the same ends. IF the theoretical basis of the ideas in those novels is there in real-life, are there any current theories on exploiting them for FTL travel? Are they feasible? Andy ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 86 01:41:00 GMT From: ccvaxa!wombat@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Impossibilities To set the record straight here, the reason scientists and engineers used to think supersonic flight was impossible is that they tried to used the equations for subsonic flight, which produce a division by zero at the speed of sound. However, the subsonic equations contain certain assumptions built into them which do not hold for transonic or supersonic flight. Once those assumptions are accounted for you can come up with the proper equations for transonic and supersonic speeds. (Well, mostly. Transonic equations are really ugly.) Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat ------------------------------ Date: 29 Sep 86 23:47:38 GMT From: unc!gallmeis@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Gallmeister) Subject: Re: Impossibilities (...and Recommended Reading) desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes: > There is a name for the opposite belief -- that the behavior of >the universe can be understood. It is called 'science.' >Understandably, therefore, those of us who consider ourselves >'scientists' don't go along with your opinion as expressed above. Is it the opposite of science to say that there are things science cannot find out? I would hate to think I were anti-science -- I'd sure feel stupid! I did not mean to say that science is a crock -- it works, doesn't it? I think it is obvious that the scientific method and the empirical quest for knowledge have been, ah, successful, to understate things considerably. At the same time, I think it is obvious that there are things science (as we know it) can never discover, because this sort of knowledge is just not susceptible to the empirical method of attack. In short, I think that "Scientific Knowledge" is a proper subset of "Knowledge". I think it is a little pompous to say that you can learn anything by the scientific method, and that, once science uncovers something, it will never be disproven. > I can't help wondering how you can be so sure of yourself, in >criticizing others for being too sure of themselves. I'm not. The emphatic wording of my posting was meant to stimulate some interesting conversation. And thank you, it succeeded. Yours in wondering as well, Bill O. Gallmeister ...!mcnc!unc!gallmeis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 86 01:16:28 edt From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence Raphael) Subject: impossiblities Let's face it, some of the people flaming on about ftl just do not have a real firm grasp of why modern physics doesn't believe in it. It's not because the Lorenz-Fitzgerald equations make no sense for v>c, it's a far deeper reason having to do with causality and the nature of information. Basically it is my claim that if ftl exists, then modern physics is *SO* wrong that it will have to be almost *COMPLETELY* rethought. And so for time travel, and similar kinds of magic. I won't try to explain just why ftl is "impossible" according to modern physics -- I am not a physicist. I DID however take a philosophy-of-science course given by one of the experts in that field which is a fusion of physics, philosophy, and probability, so I am not just coming out of the blue.... Of course, I could be just wrong, but it is hard to see how the framework of modern physics which rests indirectly on relativity could be right if ftl is possible. And of course the equations as well as various other predictions of relativity have all been experimentally proven correct. Just like Newton's Laws, I know, but you have to assume current theory is right, or why bother with science at all? For whoever mentioned tachyons, it is a basic property of tachyons that they can no way interact with normal particles (tardyons), and so their existence can never be proved or disproved. This being the case Occam's Razor (as well as common sense) says we might as well ignore them except as a good name for our fictional ftl radio and ftl stardrive. Annoyingly, Laurence ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 7 Oct 86 0947-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #333 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Oct 86 0947-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #333 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 7 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 333 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Ellison (2 msgs) & Myers (2 msgs) & Silverberg & Story Request (2 msgs) & DaVinci ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 3 Oct 86 13:32:39 EDT From: Robert L. Krawitz <rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU> Subject: Foundation and Earth (a BIG disappointment) Foundation and Earth, the latest in Asimov's meta-series on the history of the galaxy, is a total flop as far as I'm concerned. I'm sorry I wasted the money on it. <very mild spoiler, or maybe big spoiler> The entire book seems to take maybe a few months altogether, right after the events of Foundation's Edge. As expected (that's the main problem with the book), Golan Trevize is searching for Earth. Not too surprisingly, Golan Trevize and Bliss go along with him. Also not too surprisingly, they have some adventures along the way. So what's the problem? The book ties up all the loose ends of Foundation's Edge, Robots and Empire, and Pebble in the Sky (or was it one of the others?). But the way that it ties them up is altogether too predictable. The various adventures are either contrived closings of loopholes or completely irrelevant tales that add nothing to the novel except for word count (in the preface, the Good Doctor refers to his contract with Doubleday...). The approach of the book is completely mechanical; there is very little plot, and none of the multiple story lines that characterize the other books. It might as well have been written first person from Golan Trevize's viewpoint. The ending is the only thing remotely resembling a surprise; careful readers of Asimov's recent novels might be able to guess it anyhow. After the truly amazing ending of Robots and Empire, this one was a big letdown. There's not even anything worthwhile open for a sequel. Up until now I've looked forward to the next robot/empire/foundation novel. This time, I think it's about time to call it quits. Robert Krawitz rlk@athena.MIT.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 86 14:09 PDT From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Harlan Ellison I have been to a couple of Ellison's talks at conventions and the like over the years. He has _always_ been a humorous and interesting speaker, and I would immediately go and see him again. He does have an acerbic attitude, but I think he realizes it and cultivates it. He told this story way back in 1977 at a Star Trek con in Seattle, where he also read his wonderful story, _How's the Nightlife on Cassalda?_ which was commissioned by Penthouse and published by Heavy Metal (I forget when). He was fresh out of the Texas Rangers and glad of it (he didn't want them and they didn't want him, but the draft did). He had just published two books and was well on his way to becoming "a star," at least in his own mind. He was toodling around Virginia in his little red sports car when he ran into an old girlfriend. She invited him out to her parent's farm for Sunday breakfast that week. Well, needless to say he showed up, dressed very fine and impressed the family with his wonderful demeanor (must not be the same one he uses these days). Well, it turned out that a gate had gotten open and the cattle had scattered into the woods surrounding the farm. Well, Harlan knew how to ride a horse and so he offered to round them up for the young lady. Unfortunately he hadn't brought any spare clothes, so she went and got some of her 14 year old brother's jeans. They were only a bit tight on Harlan, but he said he was in perfect shape after being in the Rangers, so he went bareback and bare chested to round up the cattle. Well, after galloping into the woods and snapping a branch of a tree to drive the cattle back to the farm, he notices a group of girls emerging from the woods and talking with the girl he is visiting. Noticing that they keep looking at him and pointing, he plays it up to the hilt and is ultracool as he drives the cattle back into the corral and closes the gate without getting off the horse. Then he rides up to the group of girls, rears the horse, leaps off, and bounds over the fence to land dramatically in front of them and rips the biggest fart you have EVER heard. He says that he turned completely red and went to hide immediately. The moral he said was, "This is what happens to you when you are trying to be cool. So don't." I guess this makes me think that Harlan, while being a crotchity fart, does not take himself very seriously, despite his remarks that make people think that. His biggest problem seems to be with cooperation. He wants creative control over everything he is involved with, and that puts him at odds with other creative people. Jon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 86 10:01 EDT From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Asimov and Ellison and "Ego" Eric J. Simon (wccs.e-simon%weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet) quotes Dr. Asimovs' (I am personally not friendly enough with the man to call him "Isaac") account of his first meeting with Harlan Ellison as described in his introduction to "Dangerous Visions". In Dr. Asimovs' version of the meeting, Mr. Ellison stunned the good doctor with the line: "Well, I think you're a *nothing*!" When I myself first read the aforementioned anecdote, I was shocked. Although Mr. Ellison is often energetic and vehement in his writing, his anger is invariably directed toward our Great Society, where pretentious movie stars and vigilantes are far more admired and respected than great scientists and artists. Nowhere in his writing (or in the writing of others referring to him) do I detect such a unreasoning vicious streak that would prompt such a remark toward a writer such as Dr. Asimov, toward whom Mr. Ellison freely admits he feels nothing but respect and admiration. It is unfortunate that Mr. Simon did not go on to read Mr. Ellisons' version of the meeting in the second introduction of the book. In it, he takes great pains to correct Dr. Asimovs' recollection of the event. He states that he did not say, "Well, I think you're a *nothing*!" The actual words were, according to Mr. Ellison, "Well, you're not so much!" This seems to me to be much more in accord with the reaction noted by both authors. In a crowd of people at a bar, the "nothing" remark would evoke a sudden quiet, while the people waited for Dr. Asimovs' reaction to such a challenging remark. The "not so much" remark would indeed produce uproarious laughter in those who are familiar with Dr. Asimovs' reputation for productivity and high self-esteem. (I was a bartender for 3 years while going to college, so I have a pretty good idea how groups of people react in such situations.) I can only conclude that this was one of those rare cases where Dr. Asimovs memory of an event is not quite perfect. In any case, all this is besides the point. The so-called "ego" of a writer has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of their writing. In fact, no personality quirks should be considered when evaluating a writers work; the work itself is the only important thing. Should we question the value of the works of Hemmingway or Dylan Thomas because they were alcoholics? Oscar Wilde because he was a homosexual? Lewis Carroll because he was a pedophile? The greatest writers of all time were great because their flawed personalities allowed them to look at the world in a way we "normal" people can't imagine. Mr. Simon, when you have published over 350 works on an incredibly vast range of subjects as Dr. Asimov has, I will acknowledge your right to criticise his "ego". For now, if he doesn't have a right to think highly of himself, who has? ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 86 00:15:41 GMT From: ur-tut!abd1@caip.rutgers.edu (Alfred Dunn) Subject: Silverlock sequel I read Silverlock around '79 and have seen a sequel on the shelf at our local bookstore for a couple of years now. So today I finally got it. _The Moon's Fire-Eating Daughter_ is the title. Anyone read it yet? I'm surprised that I haven't heard anything about it on the net. Looking at the first few pages, I see that it was copyrighted in 1981, also that Myers Myers was born in 1906. There's also a booklist: By John Myers Myers: The Harp and the Blade Out on Any Limb The Wild Yazoo The Alamo Silverlock The Last Chance Doc Holiday Dead Warrior I, Jack Swilling Maverick Zone: Red Conner's Night in Ellsworth The Sack of Calabasas The Devil Paid in Angel's Camp The Deaths of the Bravos Pirate, Pawnee and Mountain Man San Francisco's Reign of Terror Print in a Wild Land The Westerners The Border Wardens The Moon's Fire-eating Daughter Anybody read any of the above? Any recommendations:? Are there any other Silverlock sequels? Al Dunn Uucp: ...seismo!rochester!ur-tut!abd1 Bitnet: Abd1@uordbv Abd1@uorvm Usmail: 268 West Lake Road #70 Honeoye, N.Y. 14471 Phone-Work: (716) 275-2811 Home: 367-3577 ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 86 01:34:26 GMT From: stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg) Subject: Re: Silverlock sequel The Moon's Fire-Eating Daughter is a sequel to Silverlock in only the loosest possible philosophical sense. It also is pretty poor. (That was an opinion, your mileage may vary) I was very disappointed, with MFED. I enjoy Silverlock very much. From the booklist (not included here) I get the impression that most of Myers' output is in the Western genre. The only other work of his that I have read is The Harp and the Blade. It is (believe it or not) a story of CONAN returning to his old Celtic stomping grounds. Definitely not in the expected Conan mythos. It is also an acceptably good story (believe it or not) and I recommend it. Stu Friedberg {seismo, allegra}!rochester!stuart stuart@rochester ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 86 23:10:34 GMT From: dciem!msb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Brader) Subject: Re: TOM O'BEDLAM by Robert Silverberg (SPOILER) > I like Silverberg's novels; I really do. But this one is so > exasperating, so annoying, ... I like Silverberg's novels too, though I haven't read his very thick ones of recent years, and I like Evelyn Leeper's review. But I disliked TOM O'BEDLAM for reason quite different from hers. > So what do I find so exasperating? Not Silverberg's writing > style-- that is as good as ever. ... Not for me. To me it felt as if this was a novel of 2/3 its actual length that had been padded out to the length currently considered desirable by publishers. I would have made massive cuts in the first half of the book. > ... It's the message that drives me up the wall. ... [Tom's] > visions, and those of the newly born tumbonde' sect, and those of > the patients in an exclusive mental institution near Mendocino all > point toward an apocalyptic transition for the human race. This > vision is best expressed by one of the converts to tumbonde': "The > gate will open; the great ones will come among us and make things > better for us ..." That is what happens in the story... > ... My objection ... is that Silverberg seems to be saying that we > needn't do anything to improve things here on earth--powerful > alien beings will show up to solve all our problems. But I don't think that that's the message. > ... Tom, because of his mutation, is a critical nexus in the > Crossing. And while some people are eager to "cross" and become > the wards of these super-beings, others are not. And how does Tom > feel about sending these, in effect killing them on Earth to send > their souls elsewhere? "It wasn't a killing anymore than the > other killings were. ... I didn't kill you ... I did you the > biggest favor of your life." So also said the Inquisition as it > lit the auto da fe'. Good parallel. Because there are two other interpretations of Tom's talent that are possible. He could simply be broadcasting *delusions*. When he *think* he is sending someone to another world, he is killing them. This is why some characters are reluctant to be sent! However, they get sent anyway, willy-nilly. It's also possible that he is right about the other worlds existing -- there is evidence presented that they do, but some choose to see it as another form of broadcast delusion -- but that, as the one most suited to receive and project the visions, he has gone mad and, again, thinks he can send people there when he is really killing them. The book carefully *does not show* that anyone arrives at the other worlds. Neither does it say that they do not arrive there. The last chapter ends with Tom, feeling his power growing with practice, starting to send them in greater and greater numbers while the bodies pile up around him. There is no scene on another world. Is he really transporting souls, or are the skeptics right? The other worlds of the book are much like Heaven. Some people think they know that it exists and how to get there, and they go to great time and effort to convince others to share their faith, but the issue will never be decided by physical proof here on Earth. But some people will always believe. Are they wrong if, like the Inquisition, like Tom O'Bedlam, they act according to this belief? I think the book is capable of being read as either a statement for or against faith and religion, depending one which characters one identifies with. I suspect that it was simply intended to make us *think* about faith. Because it is also saying that, right or wrong, *believers* will always be with us. Mark Brader ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Oct 86 12:00 EDT From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: book request... I remember reading a book when I was in grade school (about 15 years ago) that I thought was great at the time. I can only remember a few scattered scenes now: the protagonist escaping aliens by chasing them and throwing small, deadly radioactive pellets; he escapes radiation poisoning by using a "rejuvinator" machine which rebuilds his body to perfection...later he ends up on an arid Venus, wearing a plate on the back of his neck to avoid gaseous "jellyfish" who have the nasty habit of floating too high to see, and plummeting to inbed themselves into the spine...I believe he also goes to Mars... If this sounds familiar to anyone, I would be grateful for the title and author of this book...just out of curiosity, I would like to see if it can stand the test of time... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Oct 86 20:14 EST From: S6VYJE%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: story request Does anyone remember a story from Analog, in the Sixties or early Seventies featuring a race of huge arboreal cats called, amazingly enough, "arborodons," which were green and rather like double saber-tooth tigers (two tails, two pairs of "sabers," even two spinal cords?!?) Fairly pedestrian actually, and probably a John W. Campbell edited story, but I'd still like to find it and reread it. Thanks in advance. Greg Morrow s6vyje@irishmvs.bitnet (@wiscvm.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 86 14:53:38 edt From: Antonio Leal <abl@ohm.ECE.CMU.EDU> Subject: DaVinci DaVinci figured in a short story I read some 15+ years ago. I can't remember the author (maybe Poul Anderson ?) and it was a foreign edition. I shut up in the hope that someone would come up with a better reference, but no one did, so ... *** SPOILER WARNING *** The gist was that the first men on the moon found some soft shoe's footprints on the lunar dust. Following them, they find a cave; they recognize that the lighting in the cave is exactly the same as in the "Madonna of the Rocks" (transl ?) painting, and they know who their predecessor was ... Happy hunting. Tony (abl@ohm.ece.cmu.edu) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 8 Oct 86 0802-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #334 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Oct 86 0802-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #334 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 8 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 334 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Japanese Animation (6 msgs) & Impossibilities ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 19 Sep 86 21:06:56 GMT From: aplvax!mae@caip.rutgers.edu (Mary Anne Espenshade) Subject: Re: the continuing discussion of Japanese animation Subject: characterization Just as American TV has kids shows, teen oriented shows, adult shows and shows for the whole family, so does Japanese TV. The difference some people seem to be missing in this discussion is that in Japanese TV and movies, *any* topic can be animated - it is just another medium of presentation, not a signal that the show is "just for kids". So there can be anime shows aimed at small kids (i.e. Dr. Slump), teenagers (most of the action shows), and adults (i.e. Patalliro). There are animated comedies, dramas, sports shows and soap operas. The problem with Americanizing them is that studios can't see past the "animation is for kiddie cartoons" (= simple comedies) syndrome. So when they buy a violent drama, such as Gatchaman, they end up cutting it to ribbons to make it acceptable for kids, with poor results like Battle of the Planets. Harmony Gold has avoided this problem, though they certainly have others, in keeping death scenes and not substituting "robot ships" and contrived escapes. But Hutch is right, they'll never do Devilman. Mary Anne Espenshade {allegra, seismo}!umcp-cs!aplcen!aplvax!mae mae@aplvax.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 17 Sep 86 16:09:14 GMT From: daemen!fung@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Worzel Fung) Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory? kaufman@nike.uucp (Bill Kaufman) writes: > Sorry, but I still feel like the heroes on those cartoons ARE > Western. In ALL of them, the Good Guys look American, even the > ones that aren't exported to the U.S. OK, try this: > (Show) (U.S. title) (Place) > Urashamon (sp?) Future police Neo-Tokyo (San Fransisco) > Gatchamon G-Force New San Fransisco > Macross Robotech A U.S.-held Pacific Is. > > I also think that YAMATO's base was in S.F. (Kinda stilted view > of the U.S., huh? I guess that from Japan, the biggest U.S. city > is S.F. I guess the proximity makes for an appearance of SIZE! > ;-) Sorry guys, but apparently you're all kinda wrong. Dr. Tezaka (Creator of Leo-Ceasar/Kimba, Mighty Atom/Astro Boy, and HUNDREDS of others) was the pioneer in the Japanese comics industry (mangas) and was extremely influences in life by all of the Disney flicks. When Tezaka spearheaded the animation industry with Mighty Atom (A bit of trivia for you folks), he purposely drew the eyes large as to express emotions (an unwritten rule in Japan is that you do not publicly show emotion, but a way to get around it is eye-contact). When the manga AND anime industries boomed, artists took Tezaka's hint a step further; drawing eyes larger and expressing emotions not only in the eyes, but publicly as well. As for exploiting Caucasian looks, the Japanese have done this basically from two reasons: One) The United States was "Big Brother" to them after WWII, why not give them praise for it (After all, the US brought them back from economic ruin after WWII within a few scant years); and Two) At the time, the Japanese (Tezaka included) thought that the future belonged to the Caucasians, so they emphasized it. As for shows dealing with the US in gereral (Addendum to above): > (Show) (U.S. title) (Place) > Urashiman: Future police Neo-Tokyo (San Fransisco) > Gatchaman G-Force New San Fransisco > Macross RobotechA U.S.-held Pacific Is. Mospeada Robotech: New Gen. New York City (for 1 ep) Dan Couga (Not brought over) Colorado (for 5 episodes) Giant Gorg (Not brought over) New York (for 1 episode) Fist of the Bear Claw (Not brought over) Mid-Western US MS Gundam (Not brought over) Dallas, TX (for 2 episodes) MS Z Gundam (Not brought over) Cape Kennedy, FL (for 2 eps) SQCR Galatt (Not brought over) Los Angeles Lupin the 3rd (Not brought over) All over eastern US (sev. eps) Bismark Star Sheriffs US continent (for 3 episodes) Of course the list is longer, but I have Sooooo little space to type. PS. The Yamato's base WAS in Tokyo, unfortunately in Final Yamato, it looked a lot like Pearl (in joke, especially since one of the cruisers in the harbor was one of the Arizona-class space cruisers). Kenneth Fung UUCP: {decvax/dual/rocksanne/watmath/rocksvax}!canisuis!daemen!fung ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 86 03:54:18 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: TV SF / Japanimation >One was "Twelve to the Moon". It was in black and white. It was >about an expedition to the moon with a crew/staff from at least >both the U.S. and the USSR, possibly others (probly UN). As I >understood it (with my single-digit-age brain), they had been >bewitched/enthralled/mind-controlled by some unseen being or force. >(Perhaps it *was* seen -- I hadda leave for a while.) No, the force was never seen. It was only a voice. In the end the lunar beings freeze the earth and only cooperation among the astronauts saves it. It as made in 1960 with people like Tom Conway and Francis X. Bushman. Not very good. >The other was in color, perhaps the first I'd ever seen, >called "Battle in Outer Space". This one was somewhat better, though it was mostly a special effects extravaganza in the days before special effects were really accomplished. I always thought of it as sort of a follow-up to the MYSTERIANS. Aleins with a base on the moon attack Earth. Earth must first fight them on their home turf, then they bring a whole armada to Earth with the mother ship going to Tokyo. The film was ahead of its time: lots of action, lots of spectacular spfx, not much on characters or plot. 1959. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 24 Sep 86 16:07:15 GMT From: gitpyr!ccastkv@caip.rutgers.edu (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti) Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory? kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes: >Sorry, but I still feel like the heroes on those cartoons ARE >Western. In ALL of them, the Good Guys look American, even the >ones that aren't exported to the U.S. OK, try this: Sorry, but you're wrong. The reason you probably feel that the "Good Guys look American" is that most of the Good Guys have the rounded eyes so common here as opposed to the normal shape of the oriental eye. The thing to remember is that the Japanese have become, to some extent, fascinated with the shape of the caucasian eye and many find it to be attractive. In fact, this is why many Japanese undergo cosmetic surgery to give their eyes a more rounded shape. Take a look at Macross. In the original version I believe you'll find that Rick, and probably Lisa (Misa Hayase), Sammy, Vanessa, Max, and Ben were all Japanese and Minmei and Kyle were Chinese. >(Show) (U.S. title) (Place) >Urashamon (sp?) Future police Neo-Tokyo (San Fransisco) >Gatchamon G-Force New San Fransisco >Macross Robotech A U.S.-held Pacific Is. That's funny. I always thought that Macross Island wasn't held by any one country. You're forgetting both "Boobytrap" and the recent Robotech Graphic Novel in which it was revealed that a world war was halted when the countries realized that they had better work together on the SDF-1 in preperation for any other aliens that might land on Earth. Remember the crew and people were various nationalities. Captain Gloval was Russian. Minmei and her folks were Chinese. And so on. >I also think that YAMATO's base was in S.F. (Kinda stilted view of >the U.S., huh? I guess that from Japan, the biggest U.S. city is >S.F. I guess the proximity makes for an appearance of SIZE! ;-) Not quite. Remember that Japan is an island nation. Any military might that it has must be founded on its navy. Large armies don't do you any good when you can't get them out of the homeland. San Francisco is one of the largest ports, and certainly one of the best known, in the continental United States. Therefore it is not at all surprising that the Japanese might use it as a setting for some of their series. Keith Vaglienti Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastkv ------------------------------ Date: 27 Sep 86 00:24:25 GMT From: sadoyama@miro.Berkeley.EDU (The Fifteenth Dead Man) Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory? ccastkv@gitpyr.UUCP (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti) writes: >The reason you probably feel that the "Good Guys look American" is >that most of the Good Guys have the rounded eyes so common here as >opposed to the normal shape of the oriental eye. The thing to >remember is that the Japanese have become, to some extent, >fascinated with the shape of the caucasian eye and many find it to >be attractive. In fact, this is why many Japanese undergo cosmetic >surgery to give their eyes a more rounded shape. This is very very true. That eye operation is the MOST common cosmetic surgery operation performed in Japan, not to mention Honolulu (my hometown). >Take a look at Macross. In the original version I believe you'll >find that Rick, and probably Lisa (Misa Hayase), Sammy, Vanessa, >Max, and Ben were all Japanese and Minmei and Kyle were Chinese. Also, another thing that may be throwing people off is that in Japanese comics, you don't have to have black hair to be Japanese. All those blonds, brunettes, redheads, green- and blue- and yellow-haired types are all really Japanese, unless the comic tells you otherwise. Most manga start out as cheap pulp black-and-whites, and it gets very dull (not to mention throwing off the artistic balance of the page) if everybody's hair is black. Eric Sadoyama ------------------------------ Date: 30 Sep 86 22:38:33 GMT From: bnrmtv!zarifes@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes) Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory? > kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes: >>Sorry, but I still feel like the heroes on those cartoons ARE >>Western. In ALL of them, the Good Guys look American, even the >>ones that aren't exported to the U.S. OK, try this: I'll try again. In Japanese animation, the artistic style is to have characters with large, round eyes because the father of Japanese animation, Tezuka, was a big fan of Walt Disney. Most of Disney's characters had (you guessed it!) LARGE, ROUND EYES. The style is still widespread, but MANY Japanese animated films do not have the large eyes. Concerning Macross, it is typical for the Japanese films to have international characters. Macross is an excellent example of this. Our hero (called Rick Hunter in Robotech) Hikaru Ichijo, is clearly Japanese (Karl Macek named him Rick Yamada in the *original* Robotech episodes). Lynn Minmay is Chinese. Major Roy Fokker is either German or American. Misa Hayase (Lisa Hayes) is unclear. Brigadier General Gloval ("Captain Gloval") is Russian. The Japanese do like to have many races represented in their animated films. Bottom line -- The large eyes are artistic stylizations ONLY! The multiple hair colors are also artisticly motivated. Is someone with green or purple hair Japanese or American? Ken Zarifes {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 86 14:49:05 GMT From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Impossibilities (the Law of Fives) From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) >hurst@grc97.UUCP (Dave Hurst) writes: >>This is the very model of what a true scientific law must always >>be: a statement about how the human mind relates to the cosmos. We >>can never make a statement about the cosmos itself--but only about >>how our senses (or our instruments) detect it, and about how our >>codes and languages symbolize it. >> >>We must remember that scientific inquiry can only build possible >>models to describe the behavior we have observed. Since these >>models are human artifacts, they must _necessarily_ reflect our >>experience of human existence. >> >>They are not and can never be complete representations of the >>universe! > > This is the place in which I would normally attempt to refute >Mr. Hurst's arguments. However, the astute reader will note that >he does not give any arguments! He gives no justification >whatsoever for any of the claims. And so I, and anyone >who is interested in intelligent discussion rather than unsupported >claims, will simply ignore them. Oh, this one *does* look like such fun: thanks David, it's so nice to have someone who both argues and makes good arguments to play with. There are several nice arguments for Hurst's propsition, which I understand as being "all scientific facts are models of reality and therefore not complete representations of reality." And by the way, I both agree with this idea and don't think it in any way conflicts with "science" as I understand it. 1) Information-theoretic argument. Note first that all scientific laws are abstractions taken from reality. If we have a law that says F = ma, we have abstracted in the following ways: a) we have gone from observations of events to a model for those events; this model necessarily removes information. It does not say "if I move this brick, causing it to accelerate at this rate, I apply a force of that much" nor does the law include all those cases with which the law was derived. Thus there is loss of information. *Necessary* loss of information, but loss none-the-less. b) further, we have abstracted from the cognitive structure of the law as we think of it, into the formal symbolism. Another loss of information, since we need to know what the string "F = ma" means to know what it means. Think of it as coding: a code contains information only to extent that we have a structure to relate it to (as e.g. a psuedonoise sequence -- unless we know that it is a PN sequence, it looks random, at least until the repetition comes around. Even then, unless we know about PN sequences, it still looks almost random and doesn't tell us much.) 2) Logical: scientific laws are based on models made by observation; we then test these models by making and checking predictions. However, these models never give complete certainty -- they cannot, because they don't observe *all* events, only the finite number of experiments on which they are based. A statement of scientific law cannot -- by its nature -- be a statement that such-and-such an event CAN never happen, just that we predict that this event WILL never happen. It is precisely the difference between deduction and induction. (Which is not the Principle of Finite Induction or its analogues, of course.) 3) Observational: scientific laws are superceded regularly by newer versions of scientific laws. Newton's F = ma was modified by Einstein's extra restriction that one must know the environment and relationship between observer and observed; Einstein's laws in turn are being challenged and modified by quantum mechanics. Thus the observations lead us to the prediction that all scientific laws will eventually be modified to reach a closer correspondence with reality. However, the *observations* DO NOT lead us to predict that there will be an end, a final perfect description; if fact, such an assertion is non-testable, since it requires both an assumtion that natural law cannot change and that we can test the supposedly- perfect description against all future events. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 8 Oct 86 0819-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #335 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Oct 86 0819-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #335 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 8 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 335 Today's Topics: Books - Zelazny (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 03 Oct 86 15:17 EST From: S6VYJE%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: re: amber ronald o. christian asks: >...if the chaos lords have only limited travel in shadow, how did >oberon originally travel away from the courts to enscribe the >pattern? Simple. Shadow did not exist until Dworkin (not Oberon) enscribed the pattern. Dworkin simply rode as far away from the physical courts of chaos as he could, but still stayed in the courts in the larger sense. The creation of the pattern, in conflict with the courts' own symbol, whose name I cannot remember, created the shadows. Chaosians cannot travel through shadow because it is the pattern that created it and the pattern is foreign to those of the courts. There is a beautiful passage in which Dworkin describes his hellride out of the courts and his creation of the pattern, discovered in a jewel found around the neck of a unicorn. >Second question. Dworkin and Oberon are shape-shifters and >apparently anyone from the courts also has this talent. Why then >don't any of the children of oberon have this ability? Does >walking the pattern do gene damage? :-) It is entirely possible that Oberon's children can shape shift. Remember, Brand only learned how to draw trumps because he hung around Dworkin. The children were far more interested in shadow than abilities Dworkin and Oberon hid. Martin, random's son, could draw trumps too, so the power persisted to that generation. But those are pattern-based powers. The chaos-based powers were (presumably) being drowned out by pattern saturated genes. There is a passage in which Corwin says that the pattern somehow appears in their genes. That pattern became included in Dworkin's genes as he enscribed it using the jewel of judgment (and Dworkin is the grandfather, of course). Only Dworkin had a full set of chaos genes (mutated but still there). Oberon has some but fewer, and the children even less. Corwin's enemy and lover, whose name escapes me, says that it was time to inject some new strength into the line. (The quote is very inexact). >thirdly, there seems to be some kind of tie between Oberon and the >unicorn. anyone want to speculate? bestiality? Yes, apparently so. The unicorn is Dworkin's mate and Oberon's mother. I don't believe this was actually bald-facedly stated, but it was obvious to me at least (at least after four readings, at which point I started to figure out what was going on). No, I don't know how or why this was accomplished, but then I'm a pristine, naive, inexperienced youth. (See the halo around my head? Yeah, right.) I loved the amber series for exactly the same reason. Zelazny has a very good, deeply interwoven plot, which he throws in your face, not spoon-feeding the reader. _Trumps of Doom_ seemed less so, somehow, but maybe that was because it only took two readings to figure out what was happening. I'm looking forward to _Blood of Amber_. greg morrow s6vyje@irishmvs.bitnet (@wiscvm.arpa) usnail: 415 cavanaugh/notre dame in 46556 voicenet: (219) 283-1543 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 86 21:35:15 edt From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence Raphael) Subject: Amber Quibble We KNOW that the Logrus is not an aspect of the primal pattern because Chaos existed prior to Law. In all mythologies Chaos (in the form of the Abyss, Ocean, Nunnu, etc) exists prior to Law. Almost all of Zelazny's writing is highly mythic in character (hey, I got an A in my undergrad mythology class for my paper on Lord of Light), and things are definitely set up this way. I personally doubt that Dworkin was The Originator of Amber. He is too unstable a character, even discounting the effects of Martin's blood. Rather, Dworkin is a focus the Unicorn used to create Amber (she gave the Jewel of Judgement to him, I believe). Dworkin is more like the Corn King of old, whose life was tied to his domain and who ruled under the auspices of whichever Goddess-archetype you prefer. When Amber was beset (resulting from treachery rather than external assault, really), Dworkin's state reflected Amber's disarray, albeit the whole thing originated in the attack on Martin. Also note that Amberites consider the Unicorn to be more of a patron-deity than a founding mother.... I'm interested in the parallels with The Traveller in Black, which incidentally was just reprinted by Bluejay. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Oct 86 07:57:00 GMT From: silber@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: History of the Universe up to _Bloo >The Amberites move through shadow easily only in the portion of the >Universe under the effect of the Pattern. As they get closer and >closer to Chaos, they find it more and more difficult to "shift >Shadow", because the more Chaotic shadows move and shift by >themselves, screwing up the mental-physical arithmetic processes >employed. They also find it difficult to move through shadow in the physical vicinity of Amber, presumably due to the presence of the pattern. Corwin, one of the better walkers, is one of the few who seems able to shift shadow even slightly on the near side of the mountain. As one goes further into shadow and further from Amber physically, it gets easier until approaching Chaos. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 86 12:46:26 edt From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence Raphael) Subject: amber (Re the comment on the Trumps of Doom cover). Yeah. have you noticed that Zelazny seems to be consistently screwed as far as covers go? The only ones I have ever liked were those black Avon paperbacks with the little medallions of art on them, and you couldn't really call that a full cover, like a Whelan piece, say. I *DON'T* believe that the Unicorn is a shape-shifter, or a creature of chaos. She is definitely an Agent of Law. Perhaps she arose out of the primal chaos like order tends to in most mythologies (also see Brust's To Reign in Hell and Brunner's The Traveler In Black -- Moorcock is not so appropriate, I think) but remember she is in a sense the origin of the Pattern -- the bearer of the Jewel of Judgement. I am completely lost as to why someone should think that Oberon and the Unicorn has any sort of congress -- please explain? I think that Zelazny could profitably write a short story about the advent of the Unicorn before Dworkin -- it would be rather neat in that pseudo-ancient-lay style he used in Creatures of Light and Darkness. Laurence Name: Laurence Raphael Brothers Organization: Rutgers - The State University of New Jersey Uucp-Address: topaz!brothers Internet-Address: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu Bell-Address: {+1 201 932 2706 | +1 201 878 1790} Postal-Address: BPO 29874 CN 1119 Piscataway, NJ 08854 USA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 86 16:32:52 PDT From: crash!pnet01!mwilson@nosc.ARPA (Marc Wilson) Subject: Shape-shifting ability topaz!brothers ( Laurence Raphael Brothers ) writes: >About the shape-shifting ability. It was supposed to die out in the >third generation -- remember Corwin's tongue-in-cheek remark "maybe >none of us ever tried" (I paraphrase); Dara said this, not Corwin. From "The Courts of Chaos": "'Then why is it that we cannot do it?' Random asked." "She shrugged. 'Have you ever tried? Perhaps you can. On the other hand, it may have died out with your generation.'" >I presume each and every one of them would have tried to learn to >shape-change since they knew it was an ability of their ancestors. They did *not* know it until Oberon gave up his Ganelon disguise. In any case, it seems that there were many things that Oberon could do that his children could not. Marc Wilson crash!pnet01!mwilson@nosc.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 86 16:31:02 PDT From: crash!pnet01!mwilson@nosc.ARPA (Marc Wilson) Subject: Re: Shape-shifting paul@mit-amt.MIT.EDU writes: >The children of Oberon are not shape-shifters because they were >born of Shadow (i.e. their mothers were from Shadow or Amber). >They have law and order in their veins and thus cannot change. Then how can both Merlin and Dara do it? Dara is descended from Benedict and Lintra, the hellmaid, so she has "law-and-order" in her veins. Merlin is, of course, Corwin's son, so he does too. I tend toward the belief that those who have mastered the Logrus have the ability. >Walking shadow: My impression was that anyone who had both the >blood of chaos and shadow can walk in shadow. Dworkin can do it >because he drew the thing (Remember though, that he has to 'sketch >his way back into his own apartment' in the first book). Walking in Shadow necessitates movement of some kind. Within the confines of Corwin's cell, one can assume that there isn't enough room for this. Thus, the Trump is necessary. >Perhaps he learned how to draw Trumps to allow himself to get >around (one day, he tried a portrait and found that it worked too). >Maybe Oberon can walk shadow because his mother is connected with >the Pattern (or maybe he was born after Amber was made?). Shadow >types can't shadow walk because they are bound to the shadow they >live in, and chaos types can't do it because they have no >understanding of how law works. Any of Dworkin's descendants can walk in Shadow. The Pattern is, in one form or another, necessary for this. As Fiona says: "Even the Trumps contain the Pattern, if you look long enough, hard enough..." Those of the blood royal have the Pattern in their genes. Marc Wilson crash!pnet01!mwilson@nosc.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 86 16:34:16 PDT From: crash!pnet01!mwilson@nosc.ARPA (Marc Wilson) Subject: Spells and names seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ( Ronald O. Christian ) writes: >Corwin had no magic that I know of except the ability to shift >shadow.... >Perhaps there *are* ways to use the Pattern to cast spells, and >Corwin simply didn't know how. I can't find my copy of "The Guns of Avalon", but does anyone remember the passage where Lorraine and Corwin are together in the tower, and the demon comes for Corwin? He uses some form of a spell there in an attempt to drive it off. >Another question: Has anyone else noticed significance in names? >Bleys and Brand came from the redhaired side of the family >(Bleys=blaze, get it?) and Random was truly a random element in the >struggle for the throne. There are probably others. The only other one that comes to mind is Caine. If you take the Biblical viewpoint ( Caine=Cain ), then you'll see it. Remember, Caine put an arrow in Brand's throat on the brink of the abyss. Marc Wilson crash!pnet01!mwilson@nosc.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 86 06:37:57 GMT From: iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Iverson) Subject: Amber - Trumps, Patterns, and Shadow >From: crash!pnet01!mwilson@nosc.ARPA (Marc Wilson) >>paul@mit-amt.MIT.EDU writes: >>Walking shadow: My impression was that anyone who had both the >>blood of chaos and shadow can walk in shadow. Dworkin can do it >>because he drew the thing (Remember though, that he has to 'sketch >>his way back into his own apartment' in the first book). > > Walking in Shadow necessitates movement of some kind. Within >the confines of Corwin's cell, one can assume that there isn't >enough room for this. Thus, the Trump is necessary. One might think that Brand would need neither trump nor walk since he could apparantly teleport anywhere within Shadow, Amber, or Chaos at will. Hence, a Trump is not necessary - merely a convenience. >>Perhaps he learned how to draw Trumps to allow himself to get >>around (one day, he tried a portrait and found that it worked >>too). Maybe Oberon can walk shadow because his mother is >>connected with the Pattern (or maybe he was born after Amber was >>made?). Shadow types can't shadow walk because they are bound to >>the shadow they live in, and chaos types can't do it because they >>have no understanding of how law works. You are searching for philosophical reasons for things that are explained quite well in purely physical terms within the Amber series. You should recall that one of Zelazny's strong points is his ability to create concrete descriptions of the physical laws of his universe and to adhere to them. Magic is not purely deus ex machina in Zelazny's worlds. Shadow types can indeed walk in shadow, although not nearly as well as Lords of Amber and Chaos. Merlin mentions this in regard to sorcerers near (in Shadow) to the Courts. It is also mentioned by Corwin that things are constantly finding their way into Amber (usualy from nearby). Obviously Shadow dwellers can move among Shadows without overt help from Amber or Chaos. To say that Lords of Chaos cannot travel in Shadow is untrue as well. Especialy since the Chaos Lords can draw and use Trumps. > Any of Dworkin's decendants can walk in Shadow. The Pattern >is, in one form or another, necessary for this. As Fiona says: >"Even the Trumps contain the Pattern, if you look long enough, hard >enough..." Those who have read BLOOD OF AMBER might recall that the Logrus can also be used to create Trumps. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that Dworkin learned how to draw Trumps from Master Suhuy (Merlin's teacher) at the Courts where he grew up. Given the long lives of Chaosians and the fact that Suhuy is quite old, it is quite reasonable that Suhuy was alive at the time Dworkin was growing up at the Courts. Recent discussion of the Jewel of Judgement implies that it is a tool of Law (what is law? as is Law and Order? as is Good? there is no Law in Amber). Presumably the Jewel allows the creation of a set of physical laws as stated by the architect of the pattern. Currently there are three known patterns: the Logrus, the Pattern of Amber, and Corwin's pattern. Little is known about Corwin's save its location and that Merlin might be able to walk it. A great deal is known about the other two, both of which define an area of shadow that can be manipulated in various ways (some different, some similar). To say that the jewel is undoubtly a tool of Law is premature. I would guess that the jewely created the Logrus as well. How else would the Lords of Chaos know what Dworkin was doing and try to stop him? How else would Dworkin learn of the Jewel and its use? How would he know to attune himself? He may have gotten the Jewel from the Unicorn, but she did not teach him - Corwin is pratically stunned when she just looks at him; what would Unicorn speech then do? Further, one must recall that Amber is a young upstart of a Universe - it is only three generations old, while Chaos has a long history. >Those of the blood royal have the Pattern in their genes. I would say it is more that the Pattern has the genes of the inscriber encoded within it. Why alter uncounted billions of the inscriber's genes to match the Pattern when you can just let the pattern be dictated, in part, by the inscriber's genes? Even magic follows Occam's Razor. This is supported by Brand's comment to Corwin that if he made a Pattern it would differ from Dorwkin's. Tim Iverson iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU ...!ucbvax!cory!iverson ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Oct 86 0848-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #336 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 8 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 336 Today's Topics: Television - Anderson & Battlestar Galactica & Blake's 7 & City Beneath the Sea & Phantom Empire & The Phoenix & The Prisoner (3 msgs) & Star Trek (2 msgs) & TV Anthologies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Oct 86 17:11:22 GMT From: ihlpf!rtradm@caip.rutgers.edu (Vangsness) Subject: Anderson Fan Club I'm a big fan of the old Gerry Anderson TV shows -I recently purchased a videotape of "Thunderbirds to the Rescue", which is a 90-minute movie which was made from three of the Thunderbird 1/2 hour episodes involving the fate of the "Fireflash" SST disasters. We've been having problems at this end posting to the net, e-mail, etc, so some of my messages have not gotten out. I'm still looking to join the "Gerry Anderson Fan Club" that exists in England, and would like someone to post the address for the club so I and other interested net people can write for information regarding dues, etc. Thanks in advance for the help. Bob Neumann USmail: P.O.Box 1582 Bridgeview, Ill 60455 (USA) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 86 09:54:53 edt From: John McLean <mclean@nrl-cst.arpa> Subject: Battlestar Galactica From: Brad Templeton >I'm not sure I should admit I know this much about the show, but >the "antichrist" figure, also known as Count Iblis, WAS the Cylon >imperious leader, or the organic Cylon as some knew him. I like your history, but I'm having a hard time reconciling this claim with my memory of an earlier episode that showed the imperious leader at some Cylon celebration. He was a box-like robot with a disk-shaped head on top. Anybody else remember this episode? John McLean ARPA: mclean@nrl-css UUCP: ...!decvax!nrl-css!mclean ------------------------------ Date: 6 October 1986 11:32:11 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson) Subject: Re: Blake's 7 (<Spoilers if you haven't seen the series yet>) From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) >Someone said that Blake made two more appearances after he left. >Anyway, he never rejoins the group. From: hrcca!jean@caip.rutgers.edu (Jean Airey) >You will see Blake again in "Terminal" and "Blake". Say what?!! Only two more appearances and that's it??!!!! What gives???!! I mean, how can they call it "Blake's 7" if Blake isn't in it? That would be like "Doctor Who" without the Doctor, wouldn't it? They might as well have renamed it "Avon's 5", or something like that. Which brings up another point: In the first season there were only 6 humans on the ship (I don't count Zen and ORAC as part of the crew, since they are only computers). In the second season (which I'm currently watching), there are only 5. So why is it "Blake's SEVEN"? If "Blake's 6" didn't sound too cool, why didn't they call it something else in the first place? (Whew!) Ok. One more question: Why did the actor playing Blake leave? Carlo Samson U09862%uicvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 4 Oct 86 17:50:26 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: old SF TV movies > From: ism780c!geoff (Geoffrey Kimbrough) > hurst@grc97.UUCP (Dave Hurst) writes: >> Does anybody remember a movie which played on television about a >> futuristic city built beneath the ocean? The plot revolved around >> a giant planetoid which was going to strike the earth, directly >> on top of this city. There was a character who had been >> (genetically, surgically) altered so that he could breath water. > >Hmm, there was a mercifully short-lived series called "Man from >Atlantis" which fits this bill. Maybe that's what you're thinking >of. (No doubt there was a pilot, later shown as a "TV Movie".) No, the tv movie in question was an Irwin Allen production called CITY BENEATH THE SEA (1970). It was a pilot for a series that didn't make the schedule. >> This show also had what I think is the first appearance of the >> flying submarine, a la Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea. > >*If* my above surmise is correct, it would have been the *2nd* (at >least) appearance. VttBotS ran about a decade earlier, I think. Well, you're surmise is not correct, and neither is your time frame, but you're still right in that it wasn't the first appearance of the Flying Sub. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Filmography is my pastime"> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Oct 86 17:51:20 EDT From: BARBER%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Wayne Barber) Subject: Phantom Empire todd%sarah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM says: >At the risk of dating myself, I haven't yet noticed mention of >(ta-da) PHANTOM EMPIRE, a show I remember fondly from my extreme >youth in the '50s. > >Even then, it may have been in re-runs - or perhaps derived from >episodes in a medium preceding widespread use of television itself. >In memory, at any rate, it comes across as OLD (i.e., somewhat >hokey), even for that time. I remember this show, too, but not from the 50's. The local public television station showed it several years ago in its original format - as a Saturday afternoon movie serial. As I recall, it starred Gene Autry who did a radio show from his ranch where there were entrances to the underground city. The show ended with a cliffhanger each week and I really enjoyed watching it, but I missed the last episode. I asked my father about it and he said he remembered the series from when it was first shown in the theatres and ***SPOILER FOLLOWING*** he seemed to remember that the whole adventure was just a dream. I hope I remembered this correctly. Any corrections will be appreciated. No flames, please. Wayne ------------------------------ Date: 6 Oct 86 20:54:40 GMT From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone) Subject: Re: The Phoenix It was not Khans son. Unless you think that the character was only 15 yrs old in the movie. I guess it could be the son of his by other then Lt Mcgivers though. Isn't it amazing how ST creeps into everything. Phil Paone ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 86 03:11:42 GMT From: jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare) Subject: Re: "The Prisoner" and Rover gts@axiom.UUCP (Guy Schafer) writes: >* Rover was intentionally amorphous and vague as it represents the >fears that an individual faces in rejecting society which are often >formless but ever-present. While this may be true in some sense, I saw another interview with McGoohan, in which he mentioned that Rover was originally supposed to be a complicated, menacing robot. Apparently the special effects people built a suitable radio-controlled mechanical monster about which they were very enthusiastic. In its first scene (presumably the one which would have been in the title sequence) it was supposed to crawl out of the ocean onto a beach. The effects people drove it down into the water, it submerged, and that was the last anyone ever saw of it. With deadlines fast approaching, and a tight budget, the crew was pretty desperate. I do not recall the details, but basically someone drove into town, and the most menacing (or at least off-beat) thing they could get on short notice was a bunch of surplus weather balloons. Thus are legends made.... Jordin Kare ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 86 10:44 MST From: Mandel%bco@MULTICS.MIT.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Subject: Re: "The Prisoner" & "Secret Agent" >Prior to doing The Prisoner, Patrick MacGoohan starred in the >series Secret Agent (which I don't believe has ever been shown in >the US) Oh, yes it has! "Secret agent man, secret agent man! They've given you a number and taken away your name." That was the theme, or the only part of it I remember. That aspect relates clearly to The Prisoner. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 86 07:07:18 GMT From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton) Subject: Answers to Prisoner Quiz Here are answers to the Prisoner Trivia Quiz, based on the opening sequence. Note that as I said, my answers are arbitrary. In particular, you have to assume that what went on in "Fall Out" -- the last episode, really transpired. First, the scores. 4 people took serious stabs. Several others answered a few but mostly wanted to see the real answers. Here are the top scores, by points. Dave Tallman wins an all expense paid trip to the Hotel Portmerion in Wales if he also gives me the complete decimal expansion of pi. Total: 45 Points 35: Dave Tallman 32: Jeff Okamoto 22: Mark Brader 18: Hal Peterson >1. "Where am I?" "In the Village." >[5 pts] Where was the Village? There are three answers given in >the show, but only one has hard evidence. This is a tricky one. There were two pieces of hard evidence that you had to give for full points. In "Many Happy Returns" the Village is supposedly on the Mediterranean, but that's Village fakery. In "Chimes of Big Ben", it is in Poland. More fakery. The Village is in England. Clue #1: The prisoner drives, over land, from the Village to London in "Fall Out" Clue #2: In "Chimes of Big Ben", when the prisoner is loaded onto what he thinks is a Polish truck, the truck drives on the LEFT hand side of the road. There are several places this is done, but it points strongly to England. (and also to a mistake by the filmmakers) Some have suggested that the weather is too good in the Village for England. They base this on a weather forcast for a month of sunny days given in one episode. But in other episodes, like A, B & C, it does rain. >[2 pts] Where was the actual set of the Village? The Hotel Portmerion in Wales. Just about everybody knew this. >2. "What do you want?" "Information" >[1 pt] Exactly what information did they want? Why Number 6 resigned. Everybody did know this. >[6 pts] And what is the correct answer to their question. >(This one is open to interpretation) This one is never truly said. It is known that it was a matter of conscience, because "for a very long time..." (he never finished that one.) His immediate plans were to take a nice holiday. He had travel brochures for tourist spots in his hand when he was gassed, and he wasn't planning to be gassed. He wasn't selling out. Best speculation is that his agency did things he didn't like, and he found out about them. Some speculate he had discovered rumours of the Village itself. He was certainly becoming convinced that there was little difference between the sides, and he thought there should be. >3. "You won't get it! "By hook or by crook, we will" >[2 pts] In what episode did they come closest to getting it?" Chimes of Big Ben. He really thinks he is back with friends here. He is really about to sincerely spill the beans - no drugs or suspicion of a trick. He has never before seen that his old superiors are in on it. So he almost tells. >4. "Whose side are you on?" "That would be telling." >[4 pts] Whose side were they on? Well, the Village is in England, everybody speaks English, all the #2s are of that nation, as are all the staff but not all of the prisoners. A joint venture in England would be unlikely. One can also talk about what the shown means, rather than what it shows, and say that the Village was on the side of conformism. >5. "Who are you?" "The new number 2." >[2 pts] Which actor had more than one stint as number 2? Leo McKern left and came back. Other #2s had more than one episode but they were contiguous. See below for another actor to have more than one stint. >[4 pts] Which actor to play #2 appeared in the most episodes? Trick question. I didn't ask which actor to play #2 played #2 the most, simply which one appeared in the most episodes. Since, as you will see later, the Prisoner had two stints as #2, the answer is Patrick McGoohan himself. Fooled ya! - nobody caught this. >[3 pts] Which actor played a character with no number? Angelo Muscat, the Butler. I should have been clearer here, and asked about regular characters. Anyway, the supervisor did have a number. >6. "Who is number 1?" >[3 pts] Who was number 1? There is a clue hidden in this quiz. Number 6 himself, from Fall Out, although with the way they came up with doubles in that place, who knows. The clue of course is the number of this trivia question. Some like to think #2 answers this question with "You are, number six" -- but they never say it that way. The inflection is (deliberately) not this way. >7. "You are number 6." >[4 pts] What other numbers did the Prisoner have during his stay? #12 in Schiziod Man, #2 in Free for All and Fall Out, and #1 in Fall Out. I refer here only to official Village numbers, not ones he assumed himself. >[3 pts] What was the Prisoner's real name? John Drake. (No question on this, as the next question reveals) >8. "I am not a number, I am a free man!" >[6 pts] When was the Prisoner's real name used to address him >during the series? During the "total absolute" (Once Upon a Time) #2 (McKern) regresses the Prisoner to childhood. He plays his schoolmaster. He can't use any terms from later life, so he has no choice but to call the Prisoner by his real name. It is said in frenzy and muddled, but he calls him "Drake." He also used the term "Jackie" - short for John. Brad Templeton Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 1986 11:30 EDT (Thu) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> To: Eyal mozes <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@UCBVAX.BERKELEY.EDU> Cc: Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA Subject: "Live Long and Prosper" sign origin Simple. Some people just can't force their fingers to make the sign. Shatner is simply unable to do it, no matter how much he's tried. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 86 19:50:02 GMT From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: "Live Long and Prosper" sign origin LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU (Stephen R. Balzac) writes: >Simple. Some people just can't force their fingers to make the >sign. Shatner is simply unable to do it, no matter how much he's >tried. Remember "Amok Time", the one where "Spock gets a mating urge and has to kill Kirk"? (What was the direct quote?) The lady who plays T'Pau, if you look closely, has to set up her hands in the \\//_ manner while they're in her lap--can't do it just by flexing her hand muscles! nike!orion!kaufman ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 86 21:20:45 GMT From: hutch@volkstation.gwd.tek.com Subject: Re: Review: TV Anthologies ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (e.c.leeper) writes: > TWILIGHT ZONE had two episodes this time: "Once and Future >King" and "A Saucer of Loneliness." ... > "A Saucer of Loneliness" was based on the Theodore Sturgeon >story of the same name and starred Shelley Duvall. It was >acceptable, I suppose, but lacked whatever the special touch was >that made the story so memorable. Although some short stories have >translated well to TWILIGHT ZONE episodes, others haven't. My >feeling is that comedy translates to the small screen where emotion >doesn't. Maybe someone could make Sturgeon's emotion transfer >well, but David Gerrold, who wrote this teleplay, is not that >person. That's not to say Gerrold is a bad scriptwriter, but this >sort of script is not his forte'. This gets a 0 on the -4 to +4 >scale. (And the credits still go by too fast for anyone not a >graduate of the Evelyn Woods school.) As an expression of how the episode struck Evelyn, this is an accurate rating, but I would give it a higher rating. Having never read the original to compare with, I had no bias in favor of Sturgeon's masterful prose over the teleplay. In my opinion Duvall portrayed the pits of loneliness with depth and power. Her reaction to the saucer's message was beautiful. It seemed exactly the reaction of a person who has never known emotional warmth, who is strangling to death on solitude, suddenly realizing that she is not alone and that her pain is shared. If only for that scene, and for the scene where she writes her messages-in-bottles and casts them adrift, I would give this episode a +3. It fails to achieve a +4 only because of the stiffness of some other portrayals. Hutch ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Oct 86 0850-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #337 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 9 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 337 Today's Topics: Books - Bova & Burroughs & Ellison & Gibson (2 msgs) & Kersh & MacAvoy & Norman & Zelazny & Footfall & Counter Earths (5 msgs) & Monkeys Typing Story (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1986 09:55 PAC From: Marty Zimmerman <MARTYZ%IDUI1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> Subject: Book Search from James Turner (ARPA:ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA): >The story is a space opera, concerning a young man who gathers a >force to topple ancient (but not by default evil) rulers of the >galaxy and their minions. It is pre-1965... I think this book may be "Star Conquerors" (?) by Ben Bova. The story's told from the viewpoint of Alan Bakerman (loosely translated from his own language), who was an advisor to Geoffrey (Something-or-other) - the leader of the TERRAN star fleet. The battle was against the MASTERS and their minions, the Saurians (sp?). The OTHERS were an ancient race that had previously attacked humanity. At the end of the story, one of the MASTERS confirmed that his race was not the same as the OTHERS - in fact they too had battled the OTHERS at one time in the past. Much of this may be wrong, it is something I read a long time ago. Marty Zimmerman University of Idaho Moscow, Idaho ------------------------------ Date: 7 Oct 86 02:21:20 GMT From: sdsu!dlong@caip.rutgers.edu (Dean Long) Subject: ERB Does anybody out there like Edgar Rice Burroughs books? I've read the moon, Mars, Venus, and Pellucidar series, but none of the Tarzan books. Dean Long San Diego State Univ. sdcsvax!sdsu!dlong ------------------------------ Date: 7 Oct 86 12:55:34 GMT From: gouldsd!mjranum@caip.rutgers.edu (Marcus the Ranum) Subject: The Left Handed Gun For you Ellisonians in the DC area, there is a lecture (opinion session ?) by Harlan Ellison on Sat Oct 18, at Georgetown U. For more information, you can call 1-800-233-4060 ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 86 00:00:24 GMT From: mapper!ksand@caip.rutgers.edu (ksand) Subject: CYBERPUNK AND SF Hi! I'm looking for some response concerning Computers, books by Gibson and cyberpunk! Rgds Kent Cyber Sandvik mcvax!enea!mapper!ksand ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 86 14:24:51 GMT From: mapper!ksand@caip.rutgers.edu (ksand) Subject: More about cyberpunk and sf Hi again! This time I wonder if the whole computer-sf actually started inside IAsfM, or was there a similar trend in the 70:s Kent Sandvik mcvax!enea!mapper!ksand ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 86 9:27:38 EDT From: "Daniel P. Dern" <ddern@ccb.bbn.com> Subject: Mr Da V Rides Also In... Another short story with Leonardo da Vinci is one of Gerald Kersh's. The title is "The Ape and the <something>", or vice versa. It explains why the Mona Lisa is smiling peculiarly, BTW. I think it's in Kersh's MEN WITHOUT BONES collection. Gerald Kersh is (was?) a British writer who wrote everything from strange and quiet grisley horror to tales of the seamier side of London life -- a cross between Nelsen Algren and Damon Runyon is a first approximation. His characters speak with delightful voices; Kersh has a good, phonetic ear for the British language, and a raft of experiences that I certainly don't expect to get first-hand. As you may gather, he's one of my favorite authors. He's a bit hard to find these days. Books I can think of off-hand include: NIGHT AND THE CITY -- Perhaps his best known. May have been a movie. SONG OF THE FLEA -- I think a semi-sequal to above SERGEANT NELSON OF THE GUARDS -- One of my favorites. Situated in world war I. Reminds me a lot of STARSHIP TROOPERS without the hardware or the rhetoric, i.e., the characters are footsoldiers. THE SECRET MASTERS -- arguably sf, re a plot to conquer the world MEN WITHOUT BONES - story collection NIGHTSHADES & DAMNATIONS - " I'm glad I cruised the used bookstores heavily for Kersh a decade ago; even the libraries don't stock him for the most part anymore. But then, they barely have Phillip Wylie's "Crunch & Des" collections, either. daniel dern ddern@ccb.bbn.com ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 86 16:26:07 GMT From: tcdmath!jaymin@caip.rutgers.edu (Joe Jaquinta) Subject: Re: TWISTING THE ROPE by R. A. MacAvoy > THE BOOK OF KELLS was a step back toward the over-used--in >this case, the Celtic. While I agree that Celtic mythology may >have a certain appeal for someone named MacAvoy, I personally am >getting somewhat tired of the current epidemic of Celtic and >pseudo-Celtic fantasy covering the shelves in the science >fiction/fantasy sections these days. Don't get me wrong. MacAvoy >does it well, but I question the necessity of doing it at all these >days. How do you think the Celts think about it? Where MacAvoy is for better than most but some of her errors were rather glaring. Really, 30p to get from Greystones to City Centre is a bit off, 2.80 is a bit more correct. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Oct 86 17:14:42 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Gor and Prescott From: mic!d25001 (Carrington Dixon) > Which came first? The Prescott series began around 1973. When > did the first Gor book come out? Anybody know? The Gor series started in 1966. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 5 Oct 86 20:54:51 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Amber (Spoilers) ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes: >Corwin had no magic that I know of except the ability to shift >shadow. On the other hand, Flora (?), Brand, and possibly Bleys ^Fiona >had other powers. Perhaps there *are* ways to use the Pattern to >cast spells, and Corwin simply didn't know how. There is a scene in _The_Guns_of_Avalon_ where Corwin is confronted by a creature from the black circle. He asks its name, which it gives (something moderately unpronounceable), along with the threat "conjure with it and I'll eat your liver." Corwin proceeds to conjure with it, giving the creature a hotfoot. Thereafter it breaks in, and Corwin kills it. So apparently, magic is not entirely unknown to the children of Oberon. Corwin is apparently not very good at it (mostly for lack of working at it, I suspect), and uses it in this case only because he has been threatened -- in effect, dared to. Corwin doesn't like *anybody* telling him what to do, even in the most trivial detail -- note also his reaction to Oberon showing up and taking over at the beginning of _The_Courts_of_Chaos_. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 86 00:46:06 EDT From: "James B. VanBokkelen" <JBVB%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU> Subject: Niven, Pournelle & waves I just finished reading _Footfall_ (hardcover purchased remaindered @ local Waldenbooks), and was struck by what appears to be an error in its physics (which was also present in _Lucifer's Hammer_). I have lived near the ocean all my life, and I fail to see how meteor- produced seismic waves can behave as they do in the books. ***** Spoiler Warning ***** "...India would be covered north to the mountains. The Bay of Bengal would focus the wave again: it might cross Burma as far as China." First, waves *must* break when they reach shoaling water; for waves of this magnitude, this would occur far out on the continental shelf. Once a wave has broken, it is no longer an impulse moving through water, it is actual moving water flowing shoreward. Lots of energy gets dissipated in the break, and quickly thereafter in the turbulent flow conditions. I would guess at least 25% of the remaining energy gets reflected back out to sea. Second, I recall from various reading that larger waves travel faster. The top would get blown off anything big in shoaling water, where its crest steepens. Third, since the impact was a point, the waves would decay by inverse square. I suspect some of the more destructive earthquake waves of the past were generated by fault slippages which acted more like a line source, at least for a few hundred miles around. Fourth, should a wave 1000 feet high, and 4000 feet along its base come ashore on flat ground, its flow would be very turbulent. If it leaves 20 feet of standing (or at least decelerated) water behind it as it goes, it runs out of water 20 miles inland, regardless of any other effect. Anyone with specific knowlege care to comment? Another thing that bothered me was the unannounced arrival of the "foot". The ship itself had been spotted by astronomical telescopes. The ship had a fusion drive, and was pushing the asteroid, and was a mile long all by itself. Maybe the aliens had tried to take out the big telescopes, but there are thousands of 8-inch and smaller instruments out there. Why didn't the authorities (or even independent-minded, forward-thinking amateurs, given Pournelle) put a watch on the ship when it left Earth orbit? Sure, it hid behind the moon, but it couldn't continue to hide once it set out to meet the asteroid. Postulating that it somehow got clear without being observed (drive off once out of the shadow, long unpowered coast), you'd see it coming back, driving the asteroid. Even at 7 miles per second, it would take 10 hours falling from the moon's distance. This makes three stories by Niven (one short, and the two collaborations) where some mighty catastrophe is used to remove Asia from the picture. I wonder... Of course, stories in which *we* were removed from the picture might not sell well... jbvb@ai.ai.mit.edu (flames to me - I can't keep up with the current rate of postings) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 86 08:48:49 edt From: firth@sei.cmu.edu Subject: Theme Story Request Just to get away from time travel, could I ask you SF lovers for some story titles based on this plot device: There is another planet in our solar system, sharing the Earth's orbit but on the opposite side of the sun I know of two such (a) an excruciatingly bad movie by (I think) Gerry Anderson (b) three pretty good books by Paul Capon: The Other Side of the Sky The Other Side of the Planet Down to Earth in which the planet is called Antigeos Any more? ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 86 18:08:29 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Counter-earth (was Re: Theme Story Request) > There is another planet in our solar > system, sharing the Earth's orbit but > on the opposite side of the sun > (a) an excruciatingly bad movie by (I think) Gerry Anderson I think you're thinking of JOURNEY TO THE FAR SIDE OF THE SUN, a 1969 British film starring Roy Thinnes and Herbert Lom which is neither by Gerry Anderson (as far as I know) nor excruciatingly bad (though not great either) > (b) three pretty good books by Paul Capon > in which the planet is called Antigeos Let's not forget the best-known (not necessarily *best*) of all: John Norman's "Gor" series! (Last count was 23 books which I will not list here. E-mail me if you want the list.) Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 86 19:13:20 GMT From: tekigm!dand@caip.rutgers.edu (Dan C. Duval) Subject: Re: Theme Story Request Another example of "Counter Earth" (another planet opposite the Earth in the same orbit is (hold your gorge, now, kids) John Norman's Gor books. If you MUST read one, don't read past the sixth book, and please don't blame me if you don't like any of them -- I don't much, either. It was different when I was a mere adolescent (ie when I was still severely brain damaged) -- I liked the idea and was not offended by slavery, social subjugation of women and other subhumans (Norman's attitude, not mine), and silly stuff like that. If you can ignore all this stuff, the guy writes a decent adventure story, somewhat on the order of Edgar Rice Burroughs Mars series (which the first Gor book, "Tarnsman of Gor", seems to copy almost point for point in the plot Burroughs' first Mars book.) Then again, sorry I brought it up. I believe thet Counter Earth was first postulated during the Golden Age of Greece. I don't know the titles or authors of any of those stories, but perhaps a quick search in the library will turn up a 2000 year-old Counter Earth story. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 86 04:49:51 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: Counter-earth (was Re: Theme Story Request) There are two movies that I know of that involve planets on the far side of the sun. Neither of the movies makes much sense, one makes less sense than the other. In one movie, an astronaut heads in some funky orbit around the sun. He get's back too soon. We eventually realize that there is another planet on the far side of the sun that is exactly the same as ours, but flipped, right for left. Astronaut eventually manages to get launched back into orbit so he can recover his mother craft and return to where he really belongs. In the other, a group of astronauts swing around the sun and land on an earth-like planet. This earth-like planet is ruled by a dictatorship. This one didn't annoy me as much as the previous one--I don't remember as much about it. I'm pretty sure that it was a multi-person team, and that at least one runs counter to the secret police. If you want to extend your search for counter-earth's to the comics, I think that the High Evolutionary character in some of Marvel's comics runs a counter-earth. This makes a little more sense, as the planet is artificial (and might be screened so our probes don't pick it up). david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 6 Oct 86 21:39:43 GMT From: c160-dq@zooey.Berkeley.EDU (Kathy Li) Subject: Re: Theme Story Request On the subject of "Counter-Earths" what about the Mushroom Planet. Remember? That kid's book with the little grey-green guys who had a sulfur deficiency? Kathy Li ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 86 12:27:27 EDT From: Joel B Levin <levin@cc2.bbn.com> Subject: story request: monkeys typing To: denber.wbst@xerox.com zdenber.wbst@Xerox.COM asks about: >It's about a scientist who decides to actually perform the "monkies >and the typewriters" experiment, where according to probability, >eventually the monkies will, by typing randomly, produce all of the >world's great works of literature. . . . My memory tells me you refer to a short story "Inflexible Logic" by (I think) Russell Maloney. In it, the monkeys actually started producing the actual literature from day one. I saw it in the four volume James R. Newman collection on mathematics (_World of Mathematics_?) and in Clifton Fadiman's fine athology _Fantasia Mathematica_. I don't know where else you will find it, but it is pretty well known. JBL arpa: levin@bbn.com uucp: {backbone}!bbncca!levin ------------------------------ Date: 7 Oct 86 16:27:05 GMT From: gaynes.dec.com!wall@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Monkeys typing Story... There is a story focusing on this idea in the first volume of an Anthology called Galactic Empires, edited by Brian Aldiss. I forget the name of the story, but I believe it was by Mack Reynolds, and also featured a little bird sharpening its beak on a cubic parsec of stone... David F. Wall Digital Equipment Corporation -- HPSCAD, Marlboro, MA UUCP: ...!{decvax|decuac}!{boves,gaynes}.dec.com!wall or !decvax::{boves,gaynes}::wall ARPA: wall%{boves,gaynes}.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Oct 86 0927-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #338 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 9 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 338 Today's Topics: Books - Brin & Clarke (2 msgs) & Dick & MacAvoy & Myers (2 msgs) & Zelazny & Typos (4 msgs) & Monkeys Typing Story & Mushroom Planet (2 msgs) & DaVinci & Printing History & Computer SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Oct 86 17:17 PDT From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Brinn I read in Upcoming Books that Brin's novel titled "Uplift War" has been cancelled. I am real disappointed to hear this. Has anyone else heard anything about this? I would like to know if some other publisher will pick the novel up, or if this is really just a postponement rather than complete cancellation. ANYTHING? Also, does anyone know when "The Postman" is to be out in paperback? It was not listed in "Upcoming Books", so I have no idea. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue 7 Oct 86 20:37:32-EDT From: "Art Evans" <Evans@TL-20B.ARPA> Subject: new Clarke novel? The latest offering of SF Book Club includes the book, "The Songs of Distant Earth", by Arthur C. Clarke. The blurb says, "The long-awaited new novel from the best-selling author..." If this is really a new novel from Clarke, I will surely buy it. On the other hand, these folks are known to be, shall we say, inaccurate in these blurbs. Does anyone know if this is, in fact, really a new novel? I thought I had read all of Clarke's fiction, though a long time ago. The plot description looked a bit familiar, but I'm just not sure. Art Evans ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 86 17:58:23 GMT From: uwmacc!demillo@caip.rutgers.edu (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: new Clarke novel? It's *really* a new novel... Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center usenet: {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,topaz,decvax}!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ARPA: demillo@unix.macc.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 5 Oct 86 18:09:02 GMT From: GIZ@PSUVM.BITNET Subject: Radio Free Albemuth : by Philip K. Dick Floating in the grasp of Terra's gravity field, a satellite from the Great Ones keeps an ever gentle watch on mankind. Below, certain chosen ones go about their tasks of destroying the great Police state that has formed. You must realize the danger represented in these human inhabiting Plasmoids. The Police are COMING. The alien invasion started two thousand years ago in a small country by the Mediterranean Sea. Those shepherds and goat herders were TAKEN over by the GREAT ONE's minions. It is not only mere Aliens, horrifyingly enough, but CHRISTIAN Aliens! They are back again claiming that the Commies and the Cappies are united in their efforts to create the World Police State. I hear a knock at my door. I guess they have found me out. You'll have to read it on your own... IT NEEDS YOU! Philip K. Dick's Posthumous Novel: RADIO FREE ALBEMUTH Jeff Ganaposki (814) 865-3405 BITNET : GIZ@PSUVM UUCP:{akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvm.bitnet!giz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 86 20:19:31 PDT From: Heather Stark <heather@Psych.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Re: McAvoy's new book I, too, was very impressed by Tea with the Black Dragon, and less impressed by McAvoy's other works (The Damaino series, and The Book of Kells). Unlike E.Leeper, I wasn't disenchanted by TBoK's Celtic setting. Things Celtic are fine with me. I agree there's a lot of Celtic schlock out there, and that makes me suspicious of Celtophilic books. But I'm not so jaded that I won't pick up a book and actually SEE whether or not the writer's style and substance attract me. What bugs me about the non-TwtBD books is their sweetness. Excuse me, their EXCESSIVE sweetness. The books seem like children's books. Adult unfairness and toughness and spice are filtered through an opaque gauze of Magic and Love. Damaino is insipid. I'd never invite him to lunch. The switchoff between the lovers in TBoK is overly symmetrical, predictable, and easy. TwtBD, on the other hand, is interesting. In particular, the feisty mother in TwtBD is a character to remember. It's great to see an older woman in an action type role instead of a Jane Marple one. Does McAvoy's new book get its calories from sugar-candy or from good honest curry? heather (heather@psych.stanford.edu) ------------------------------ Date: 7 Oct 86 03:41:59 GMT From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Silverlock sequel Alfred Dunn writes: >I read Silverlock around '79 and have seen a sequel on the shelf at >our local bookstore for a couple of years now. So today I finally >got it. _The Moon's Fire-Eating Daughter_ is the title. Anyone >read it yet? I'm surprised that I haven't heard anything about it >on the net. Looking at the first few pages, I see that it was >copyrighted in 1981, also that Myers Myers was born in 1906. I started to read _TMFED_ a year ago. I could not stomach it. The basic idea is much the same as in Silverlock, but it is a lot more exaggerated stylistically. (Caveat: I am not a great admirer of Silverlock, so adjust your set accordingly.) Somewhere towards the end of the "Noah" sequence, the heavy duty stylistic quirks and the fact that all the dialogue appears to consist of pronouns without antecedents led me to decide to give up. _Creatures of Light and Darkness_ was a cakewalk by comparison. On the other hand, _The Harp and the Blade_ is a nice early British hack and slash novel that is actually a pretty good read. There's a bit of magic at the beginning, but it largely serves to stick the proptagonist firmly into the main story. So it's not really sword-and-sorcery; it's more of a politics book. The style is clearly Myers, but more restrained than Silverlock (and infinitely more so than _TMFED_). It was reprinted in paperback about the same time that _TMFED_ was published, so it should be findable. C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 86 09:21:08 edt From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence Raphael) Subject: Myers I don't believe The Harp and the Blade is about CONAN, just about some guy named Conan. It is a real name, after all.... I rather like The Moon's Fire Eating Daughter, but it is definitely inferior to Silverlock. One question: Why didn't Silverlock take that last drink?!?!?!? Laurence Name: Laurence Raphael Brothers Organization: Rutgers - The State University of New Jersey Uucp-Address: topaz!brothers Internet-Address: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu Bell-Address: {+1 201 932 2706 | +1 201 878 1790} Postal-Address: BPO 29874 CN 1119 Piscataway, NJ 08854 USA ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 86 09:24:45 PDT (Wednesday) From: cate3.pa@Xerox.COM Subject: Amber - Merlin From iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Iverson): >Surely someone bright enough to build a sentient computer (a.k.a. >Merlin) could see this potential for power and exploit it. One of the things which bothered me in "Blood of Amber" is Merlin's attitude. It seemed inconsistent at times. Here is a guy who builds his own computer, no small task. Must have taken months and months. So he has some drive, some discipline. But when taken to Corwin's pattern he doesn't go in cause he is in a hurry to get back to class. And there is no mention of him coming back, say that night. He passed up a major chance at getting more power. He just never seemed to have gotten around to walking the second pattern. Have I missed something? Henry III ------------------------------ Date: 7 Oct 86 17:33:21 GMT From: petsd!cjh@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: sad state of proofreading From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU >There is a prominent typo that's amused me for a while: The Bluejay >Books edition of de Camp's "Rogue Queen" says "Rouge Queen" right >on the spine of the book! Anyone know any other such blatant >screwups? In some printings of the paperback edition of _Time Travellers Strictly Cash_, by Spider Robinson, the blurb page inside the front cover reads something like this: TIIME TRAVELERS STRICTLY CASH Regards, Christopher J. Henrich UUCP: ...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh US Mail: MS 313; Concurrent Computer Corporation; 106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 Phone: (201) 758-7288 ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 86 00:19:53 GMT From: dciem!msb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Brader) Subject: Re: sad state of proofreading > Anyone know any other such blatant screwups? Well, my copy of Jerry Pournelle's essay collection "A Step Farther Out" has the author's name as "Pournell" on the spine of the dust jacket... I have 2 paperback copies of Bill Pronzini's anthology "Midnight Specials", a a collection of fantasy and similar type stories about trains. One copy is missing the first "signature" of 32 pages, and the other copy is missing the last signature. They were the last 2 copies in the store, so, at my suggestion, they sold me both for the price of one... However, this doesn't exactly fall under proofreading. And, leaving sf/fantasy altogether, I have a paperback copy of Elizabeth Peters's thriller "The Night of Four Hundred Rabbits"; or, at least, that's what it's called on the front cover, spine, and title page. However, at the top of every single page of the text, the title is "The Night of *the* Four Hundred Rabbits"... This is too easy, I think. Let's look for WORSE errors. Mark Brader ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 86 16:40:02 GMT From: csustan!smdev@caip.rutgers.edu (Scott Hazen Mueller) Subject: Re: sad state of proofreading Ok...I'm surprised that this didn't spring up right away, anyway: Larry Niven, _Ringworld_, the first (paperback) edition. Louis Wu is traveling around the world to avoid the "midnight line" (it's his 200th birthday) and Niven has him going the wrong way... Niven has himself admitted to the error. It was corrected in later editions, so you have to have the _first_ edition to see it. Scott Hazen Mueller City of Turlock 901 South Walnut Avenue Turlock, CA 95380 lll-crg.arpa!csustan!smdev work: (209) 668-5590 -or- 5628 home: (209) 527-1203 ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 86 22:13:32 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: sad state of proofreading >There is a prominent typo that's amused me for a while: The Bluejay >Books edition of de Camp's "Rogue Queen" says "Rouge Queen" right >on the spine of the book! Anyone know any other such blatant >screwups? Yes. The Bluejay Books edition of de Camp's "Rogue Queen" misspells his name also! I forget if it's on the spine or the front cover, though. I think they also misspell "Rogue" as "Roque" somewhere, though I could be wrong. Check the spine, the cover, and the title page. Also, Bluejay mispelled Asimov's name on the title page of SHERLOCK HOLMES THROUGH TIME AND SPACE. MASTERS OF SCIENCE FICTION (published by Belmont Books) also misspelled Asimov's name on the spine. At least one Fritz Leiber book (I think it was A PAIL OF AIR, but I'm not going to dig through the boxes to find out) misspelled his name on the spine. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 86 10:32 EDT From: denber.wbst@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: story request: monkeys typing To: levin@cc2.bbn.com Thanks - not that well-known, apparently - I only got one other reply on this one. You're exactly right - I went down to the public library and found Fantasia Mathematica (they had to dig it up from the stacks in the basement). FM also contains a related story, "The Universal Library" by Willy Ley. Anyway, the monkeys indeed started right up with real books (they were *chimpanzees*, actually). I had also forgotten how gruesome the ending was - *** SPOILER FOLLOWS *** The math professor shoots all six chimps, plus the guy who started the experiment. And then *he* grabs the gun and in his dying gasp, shoots the professor - so they *all* end up dead. I needed the story for an essay for my probability class (I got a 10 on it). Michel ------------------------------ Date: 7 Oct 86 16:09:23 GMT From: cybvax0!mrh@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Huybensz) Subject: Re: Theme Story Request c160-dq@zooey.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Kathy Li) writes: > On the subject of "Counter-Earths" what about the Mushroom Planet. > Remember? That kid's book with the little grey-green guys who had > a sulfur deficiency? There were four that I was familiar with. The titles I remember are: Journey To The Mushroom Planet Stowaway To The Muchroom Planet A Mystery For Mr. Bass (Can't remember the fourth.) Recently (through a stroke of serendipity), I was lucky enough to buy two of the books I'd read as a child from my hometown library's sale table. These books have everything a kid could want. Home-built spaceships, alien mentors, visits from "dead" Mycetians, powers vast enough to destroy planets, mysteries, spying, perils, secret inventions, the works! Mike Huybensz ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh ------------------------------ Date: 7 Oct 86 17:14:17 GMT From: hutch@volkstation.gwd.tek.com Subject: Re: Theme Story Request c160-dq@zooey.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Kathy Li) writes: >On the subject of "Counter-Earths" what about the Mushroom Planet. >Remember? That kid's book with the little grey-green guys who had >a sulfur deficiency? Sorry, rm, but the Mushroom Planet was no counter-earth, it was an undiscovered moon of earth, in orbit much farther out than Luna, invisible from Earth due to the fact that it reflected in the infra-green. It was second of the earth's three moons to be discovered (the third was a tiny asteroid which had managed to get into orbit and was too small to be noticed). Hutch ------------------------------ Date: 08 Oct 86 09:40:29 PDT (Wed) From: Michael Mattock <mattock%tp3@rand-unix.ARPA> Subject: DaVinci >DaVinci figured in a short story I read some 15+ years ago. I >can't remember the author (maybe Poul Anderson ?) and it was a >foreign edition. I shut up in the hope that someone would come up >with a better reference, but no one did, so ... This story appeared in one of G. Conklin's collections back in the early 60's. The collection had a title something like "13 Great Stories of Science Fiction". ------------------------------ Date: 5 Oct 86 20:09:00 GMT From: mic!d25001@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Printing History Query From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) >a) Using the misnomer "a substantially different version" instead >of the more accurate "an essentially identical version". (An odd >variation of this was Saberhagen's "The Golden People", which was >reissued last year. Although it was about half again as long as >the original version, ... 50% new material certainly sounds "substantially different" to me. Carrington Dixon UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!mic!d25001 ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 86 03:57:40 GMT From: starfire!ddb@caip.rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet) Subject: Re: More about cyberpunk and sf ksand@mapper.UUCP (ksand) writes: > This time I wonder if the whole computer-sf actually started > inside IAsfM, or was there a similar trend in the 70:s I may be missing something, but I haven't seen any previous discussion recently. From the 70's, there were things like The Shockwave Rider by John Brunner, Michelmas by Alfred Bester, The Adolescence of P1 by Thomas Ryan. David Dyer-Bennet Usenet: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb Fido: sysop of fido 14/341, (612) 721-8967 Telephone: (612) 721-8800 USmail: 4242 Minnehaha Ave S Mpls, MN 55406 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Oct 86 1003-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #339 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 9 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 339 Today's Topics: ******Special Issue - Canonical SF Music List ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Oct 1986 23:46:06 PDT Subject: Canonical SF Music List From: Tom Galloway <GALLOWAY@B.ISI.EDU> Here's the list as compiled from last year's SF-L. The Canonical SF Music List Compiled by: Alan Greig, Brian Ritchie, Charlie Martin, Chisholm, Dan Duval, Daniel Dern, Dave Fiedler, Dave Rosik, Doug Alan, Ellen Keyne Seebacher, Freeman, Gareth Husk, Henry Vogel, Jay, Jeff Rogers, Jessie, Jim Sullivan, John Francini, John Romkey, Jonathan D. Trudel, Ken Fricklas, Lewis Barnett, Lionel, Marcus Hall, Mark Schlagenhauf, Michael Caplinger, Mijjil, Miles Bader, Paul Anderson, Paul S. R., Peter Alfke, Steve Herring, Steve Lionel, Steve Tynor, Stuart, Terry Poot, Vlach, William Ingogly, Tom Galloway Constructed from back issues of SF-Lovers by Nicholas Simicich, David Adler, Rich Kulawiec, and Tom Galloway. AC/DC: Maximum Overdrive Soundtrack with big cut being Who Made Who Al Stewart: The Sirens of Titan (Vonnegut) Alan Parsons Project: I Robot from Asimov stories. Alice Cooper: On School's Out, the words Klattu Barrada Nicto occur in background vocals near the end of My Stars. Ambrosia: Time Waits for No One and Nice, Nice, Very Nice both on Ambrosia. The latter is the 53rd Calypso of Bokonon from Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle. The album also has a rendition of Jabberwocky Amon Duul II: Much sf-oriented material. German band. The Android Sisters: Album Songs of Electronic Despair Anvil: Mothra Aphrodite's Child: The album 666 is the veritable armageddon waltz. Vangelis was in this band back then. B-52s: Planet Claire Bedford, David: Star's End Pat Benetar: My Clone Sleeps Alone Black Sabbath: Sort of. Tends to black magic et. al. Try Technical Ecstasy for beginners, Paranoid for advanced, Black Sabbath (1st LP) for demented. Blue Oyster Cult: Black Blade on E.T. Live is another tune done with Moorcock. See also Veteran of the Psychic Wars, E.T.I., The Subhuman, and Cultasauros Erectus. Boggles: I Love You, Miss Robot David Bowie: Space Oddity (most emphatically NOT Major Tom) discusses eerie experiences in orbit. Also has a film, The Man who Fell to Earth. Ashes to Ashes, Starman, and Memory fo a Free Festival The Byrds: Hey Mr. Spaceman from the Fifth Dimension album, Space Odyssey from Notorious Byrd Brothers is a retelling of Clarke's The Sentinel. Captain Beyond: Astral Lady, Voyagers From Distant Planets, etc. Caravan: Cthulhu from For Girls Who Grow Plump in the Night Wendy Carlos: The albums Digital Moonscapes and Tron soundtrack Lol Creme/Kevin Godley: Consequences is an ecological parable. Crosby, Stills, & Nash: Wooden Ships Darkstar: The soundtrack contains Benson, Arizona Deep Purple: Occasional forays into SF. Space Truckin', The Mule (Asimov's Foundation?) Eagles: Journey of the Sorcerer from One of these Nights was used in The Hitchhiker's Guide radio series. ELO: Mission A World Record on A New World Record. The entire album Time is a science fiction story about a man from 1981 who is taken into the 21st century, and all the aspects of life there. A summary of the album: Prologue - brief sound effects of swishing, roaring, etc to a background of cathedral-like music, sounding much like waking up in a new dimension or something, while an electronic voice tells of a message from another time. Twilight - song from someone who, after disorientation (twilight, see Prologue) finds himself in the future. The verses suggest he was brought there. Yours Truly, 2095 - letter from someone far away from his love, telling of a computer he fell in love with because it was modeled after her, and its cold reactions. Ticket To The Moon - our hero ain't lucky in love and tries escaping to a new life elsewhere; this song is his confused, regretful farewell. The Way Life's Meant To Be - our hero's amusement and grieving over how the world he knew in 1981 had turned out a century later (culture shock?) after getting to know the place. Another Heart Breaks - this is a mytic, rhythmic instrumental. Rain Is Falling - Basically about wet weather, although some mention again of our hero missing his lost love, and the 21st century people offering him a way back. From The End Of The World - Seems to be about how hard it is for our hero to reach his distant love, and it's starting to get to him. The Lights Go Down - Not a sf song, more about how he's got to get back to his love in 1981. The music isn't spacey, so I suspect this is supposed to be a song he wrote while longing for her. Here Is The News - a humor song on the turbulent world of 2095. A few bad puns. 21St Century Man - song about how a man from 1981, for all his clever adaptions, simply isn't cut out for life in the 21st century and has to return and what he has to tell eveyone when he gets back. Hold On Tight (The Coffee Song) - this was more designed for commercial release (it was their main release from the album and became the theme song for the Coffee Achievers commercials), but carries the theme that, in the future world, or even out of it, really anything is possible if you keep faith. Epilogue - first a brief romanticized rendition of 21st Century Man (as if a farewell reception), into which fade choruses of the word Time, into which fade the same mystic sound effects of the Prologue (slipping between dimensions) into which a pattering note sequence repeats louder and louder and louder and louder and silence all at once, snapping the listener back into reality. Emerson, Lake, & Palmer: Karn Evil 9 from Brain Salad Surgery. See also Tarkus. Brian Eno: The albums Apollo and On Land. Eurythmics: Soundtrack to the movie 1984. FM: A Canadian band, the album Black Noise is entirely SF. The song Rocket Roll on Surveillance is about SF Rock. Flanders & Swann: The Road Goes Ever On, settings of Tolkein songs. Flash Fearless and the Zorg Women, parts 5&6: Another weird IGTB type collaboration album from the late 70's with some well-known rockers on it. Fleetwood Mac: The Green Manalishi with the Two-Pronged Crown (Judas Priest did an eminently forgettable version) Rhiannon about a Welsh witch from Fleetwood Mac. The Flock: Dinosaur Swamps Genesis: Watcher of the Skies, One for the Vine from Wind and Wuthering about time travel, perhaps The Return of the Giant Hogweed, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, A Trick of the Tail, and Get 'em Out by Friday. Dave Greenslade: The Pentateuch Steve Hackett: Narnia from his only album to date. He was once lead guitar with Genesis. Hansson, Bo: Music inspired by The Lord of the Rings Hawkwind: The all-time consensus champion for sf-oriented rock. *Some* of their albums are: Hall of the Mountain Grill, In Search of Space, Quark, Strangeness, and Charm, Space Ritual--Alive in Liverpool & London, Warrior on the Edge of Time, X in Search of Space, Doremi Fasol Latido, Astounding Sounds, Amazing Music, PXR5, 25 Years On, Levitation, Sonic Attack, Church of the Hawkwind, and Choose Your Masks. Michael Moorcock, a member of the group, writes fantasy-sf, including Time of the Hawklords, a fantasy about the band saving the world. He co-wrote Veteran of the Psychic Wars, from the soundtrack of Heavy Metal. He also released a solo album late in the 70's. Uriah Heep: The albums Demons and Wizards and The Magician's Birthday. Hendrix, Jimi: Delta Blues except that the delta is on Mars. See 1983...A Merman I Should Turn to Be, Hey Baby, and Third Stone from the Sun, UFO. L. Ron Hubbard: Battlefield Earth Soundtrack album IGTB: Stands for Inter-Galactic Touring Band; Mish-mash album put out in late 70's with all sorts of people on it, purporting to be a group on galactic tour. Jean Micahel Jarre: The albums Magnetic Fields, Equinoxe, Zoo Look Oxygene, and Rendezvous Jefferson Airplane/Starship: Blows Against the Empire album, Have you seen the Saucers? from Thirty Seconds Over Winterland. Also did CSN&Y's Wooden Ships (post-nuclear holocaust), Crown of Creation from Wyndham's Re-Birth. Elton John: Rocket Man (may be based on Ray Bradbury story of the same name in Illustrated Man) Judas Priest: The Green Manalishi with the Two Pronged Crown Kansas: Lots of stuff. See Kansas, Song For America, and Leftoverture for details. Also Masque. King Crimson: Most anything from either the Lizard or In the Court of the Crimson King albums. Tendency towards fantasy. Kinks: I Wish I Could Fly (Like Superman). Klattu: Best known for Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft, and Little Neutrino. Albums: Klattu, Hope, The Carpenters also recorded Calling Occupants... Apparently the song was conceived as prayer to be recited all over the globe to induce aliens to visit. Kraftwerk: Sf-themes occasionally. Certainly sounds sf-ish. Albums include Autobahn, Radioactivity, Man Machine, Computerworld, and Trans-Europe Express. Jack Lancaster/Robin Lumley: Marscape Led Zeppelin: No Quarter from Houses of the Holy is rather eerie, but no one is quite sure what it's about. The Battle of Evermore, from Led Zep IV discusses Ringwraiths. Also see Ramble On on Led Zep I for mention of Mordor and Gollum. See also Misty Mountain Hop on Led Zep IV. Some speculation that Stairway to Heaven is about Saruman's journey to the west, but nobody seems to be sure. Also Kashmir Tom Lehrer: We'll All Go Together When We Go, So Long Mom, We're Off to Drop the Bomb, The Elements. H.P. Lovecraft: one album...contains At the Mountains of Madness. Estimates place them from late 60's to late 70's. MC-5: On Kick Out the Jams, Rocket Reducer or Starship Magma: Ihedits, Udu Wudu...sort of cross between German language research and H.P. Lovecraft. Tried to invent their own subculture. David Matthews: Dune Paul McCartney & Wings: The album Venus and Mars, which includes Magneto and the Titanium Man (comics). Metallica: Kthulu [sic] on Ride the Lightning. Moody Blues: To Our Children's Children's Children. NRBQ: Rocket 9. Nektar: Remember the Future Pink Floyd: Of course. Set the Controls for the Heart of The Sun & Astronomy Domine, (Ummagumma) are fairly representative. Much of their instrumental music has an sf/fantasy feel to it. See also Piper at the Gates of Dawn. Also Saucerful of Secrets and Welcome to the Machine, the latter from the Wish You Were Here album. Some speculation that Set The Controls... may have influenced Douglas Adams' writing about the rock group Disaster Area. Planet P: Albums: Planet P and Pink World. Now known as Planet P Project. Platinum Bond: Album Alien Shores The Police: Demolition Man, Walking in Your Footsteps, Invisible Sun. Jean-Luc Ponty: Wandering on the Milky Way from Imaginary Voyage Queen: Thirty-Nine, from A Night at the Opera, discusses the problems of relatavistic travel. Also Machine World from The Works. Other albums include the Flash Gordon Soundtrack and Fun In Space. Ramases: Space Hymns, including great fold-out cover. Ramatam: In April Came the Dawning of the Red Suns Lou Reed: Red Joystick and Down at the Arcade Rolling Stones: Wrote the ultimate road song for astronauts, 2000 Light Years From Home, from Their Satanic Majesties' Request. Uli John Roth: Electric Sun Rush: In 2112, the protagonist discovers an ancient guitar and winds up battling the dictatorial priesthood. Red Barchetta on Moving Pictures is similar, except the guitar is replaced by a car. See also Cygnus X-1 (thought to be a black hole), Rivendell (Tolkien reference), The Necromancer. See also The Body Electric and Red Sector A from Grace Under Pressure Scorpions: Robot Man on In Trance. Schilling, Peter: Major Tom (Coming Home); perhaps a sequel to Bowie's Space Oddity? Sensational Alex Harvey Band: See The Tale of The Giant Stone-Eater from Tomorrow Belongs to Me. Seventh Wave: Things to Come Shadowfax: Much sf/fantasy material. Spirit: Future Games has interspersed fragments of old Star Trek episodes between tunes. Starcastle: A Yes clone. First album has a nice piece, Lady of the Lake. Cat Stevens: Freezing Steel from Catch Bull at Four album. Al Stewart: The Sirens of Titan Styx: Usually has one sf-ish piece on each album. All of Mr. Roboto is a fable. See also Man of Miracles and Come Sail Away, the latter from The Grand Illusion. There is some speculation that Lords of the Ring on Pieces of Eight is Tolkein-derived. Supertramp: The album Brother Where You Bound. Tangerine Dream: The album Alpha Centauri Billy Thorpe: Children of the Sun Toni K: Mars Needs Women from La Bomba. Tubes: Attack of the Fifty Foot Woman, on The Completion Backward Principle. Jethro Tull: The album A. Uriah Heep: The Magician's Birthday, and Demons and Wizards. Utopia: Winston Smith Takes It on the Jaw from Oblivion. (Orwell's 1984). Possibly Adventures in Utopia. Van der Graff Generator: Pioneers Over c (c refers here to the speed of light) Rick Wakeman: The album Journey to the Center of the Earth. Jeff Wayne: War of the Worlds. H.G. Wells' story with Richard Burton doing narration. Has single, Forever Autumn Weird Al Yankovic: Yoda (To the tune of the Kinks' Lola). Yes: Much sf-oriented work. Try Astral Traveller from Yesterdays, Starship Trooper (Heinlein?), The Gates of Delirium. See also Jon Anderson's Olias of Sunhillow. Neal Young: Ride my Llama from Rust Never Sleeps Zager & Evans: In the Year 2525. Dated but cute. Was #1 when Armstrong walked on the moon. Zappa/Mothers: From Roxy and Elsewhere Cheapness, the story of a grade Z monster. Other stuff. Warren Zevon: The songs Roland The Headless Thompson Gunner and Werewolves of London Thus Sprach Zarathustra: 2001 theme. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Oct 86 0811-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #340 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 10 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 340 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Sep 86 15:08:29 GMT From: csun!aeusesef@caip.rutgers.edu (Sean Eric Fagan) Subject: Aliens, past and present The aliens do not have to weigh several tons. It seems to me that they have an exoskeleton, which should then be the heaviest part of their bodies. Since they would not have internal skeletons, that could not add to their weight, and since the exoskeleton would not weigh several tons, the aliens would not either. But it must be incredibly thick and strong, you scream! No, it need not be. The main purpose of an exoskeleton, besides keeping organs in, is to prevent damage to the main body. The exoskeleton of insects is very strong, relatively speaking, since they need to be protected. The aliens, however, can regenerate entire limbs in a matter of hours (I do not know if it was shown in the original movie, but in the book the alien lost a leg and, about three hours later, had it back). Also a few entries back (I don't know, OK?) someone commented on the aliens possibly going through more than one form of life. This is not as ridiculous as it seems. Even here, on Earth, there are species of life that do just that, in particular the jellyfish. One jellyfish goes through life, having its offspring. Those offspring then go on to become polyps (I may have my terminology wrong, but the basic idea is correct). Now, these aliens are infinitely more capable of survival than a mere jellyfish, and therefore, go through a stage of life where they can be dormant for years, possibly even centuries (remember the first alien?). But, here is an interesting thought: only the queen can have the 'urns'. Remember back to the original movie, when the alien captures Dallas? He was impregnated, but there was no urn. So, all aliens can have children, but only the queen can produce massive amounts of babies (?) continuously, and which can lie dormant for a very long time. Incidently, I don't think the aliens would have a stage in which they would build starships. Rather, my impression was that they were, to the aliens who built the derelict, rather like rats are to us, and, after the ship crashed, merely went rampant (horrible thought: what if they were *pets*?). I could be wrong, however. Now, did anyone notice that the aliens lost a thumb between movies? (Or books and movie?) Sean Fagan aeusesef@csun.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: Thu 2 Oct 86 10:11:59-CDT From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: Bishop giving back pistol: another idea Most people seem to be saying that Bishop gave back the pistol because he figured the aliens wouldn't attack him since he didn't "smell alive" so to speak and so would not be targetted as host material, nor would he be recognized as a threat if he was unarmed. (I'm not sure I buy the latter notion, especially if the aliens are regarded as intelligent.) But when I saw that scene, I interpreted it as meaning Bishop was in a fatalistic "do or die" frame of mind, suggesting that he figured if he ran into aliens while in that long shaft, he was gonna get slaughtered whether he had a pistol or not, so why burden himself with a useless clumsy piece of equipment... I know *I* wouldn't feel much safer against the aliens if I had a lousy pistol... Russ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 86 18:45:49 EDT From: Michael Laufer <mlaufer@cct.bbn.com> Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times) From: m128abo@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Michael Ellis) >If GR permits such things, the truly cosmic traveller might wish to >never stop accelerating, and, by gulping up ever larger quantities >of stellar material, ultimately develop a voracious appetite for >galaxies, clusters of galaxies, and so forth.. Perhaps one could >thus waste the entire universe, thereby participating as an active >agent in the ultimate apocolypse, assuming a closed cosmology. Anybody interested in a story that deals with this topic should read _TAU_ZERO_ by Poul Anderson (I think?). This book is very different from most of Andersons work. I read it 5-10 years ago and really enjoyed it. Michael Laufer mlaufer@bbn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Oct 86 16:48 EDT From: NWSGC%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Aliens This is about the biological development of the aliens. From my point of view, these things are not evolved. They are created. These things are the ultimate in biological warfare. The egg to host routine is great. A member of your team is attacked by something you don't understand, still they survive. You bring them home. They seem to recover and are okay until...boom something pops out of their chest. If you made it back to your home planet, before this occurs, and each thing has the potential to become a queen creep, look out. Imagine one of them loose in New York City. It would be damn difficult to find much less kill. Frankly I can't imagine an evolutionary process that would lead to these things. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 86 23:02:13 GMT From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas Cox) Subject: Bishop giving back pistol: a third idea From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU >Most people seem to be saying that Bishop gave back the pistol >because he figured the aliens wouldn't attack him since he didn't >"smell alive" > [...] But when I saw that scene, I interpreted it as meaning >Bishop was in a fatalistic "do or die" frame of mind, suggesting >that he figured if he ran into aliens while in that long shaft, he >was gonna get slaughtered whether he had a pistol or not, so why >burden himself Personally, I still would rather think that Bishop was suffering from dual-valued programming -- that he should be a good Marine, BUT that he should also try to get a live Alien for the Company. If he's counterprogrammed against killing Aliens, then he won't want the pistol, since Being a Good Marine would involve killing Aliens where possible [to protect his fellow Marines]. By going unarmed he can: 1. not have to worry about killing any Aliens, and 2. can help his buddy Marines by bringing in the second lander. Either that, or he figures he's safer than they are and they should keep all the weapons they can. Has anyone who has read the book shed any light on this point? Thomas Cox ...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn ------------------------------ Date: 4 Oct 86 17:42:34 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Aliens: Why did Bishop give back the pistol? From: ritcv!spw2562 (Steve Wall) > From what I read in the book (saw the movie, too), the aliens > hunted mainly by scent. Since Bishop was a synthetic, he would > not attract the aliens to him, and would not need to defend > himself against them. As a matter of fact, in the book, an alien > attacks bishop once, because it sees him moving, but then turns > and leaves him alone. Bishop conjectures that this is because he > has no biological scent for the aliens to track. That would > explain why he didn't take the pistol. What you described from the book is true, but it doesn't explain why Bishop didn't take the pistol. That aforementioned attack didn't take place until *after* Bishop left Operations for the uplink tower,and thus after he refused the pistol. So he didn't know when he refused the pistol that he was immune from attack. Why did he say, "Believe me, I'd prefer not to go. I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid," if he knew that he was safe from attack? --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 4 Oct 86 21:26:13 GMT From: cpro!asgard@caip.rutgers.edu (J.R. Stoner) Subject: Re: Bishop giving back pistol: a third idea benn@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Thomas Cox) writes: > Personally, I still would rather think that Bishop was suffering > from dual-valued programming -- that he should be a good Marine, > BUT that he should also try to get a live Alien for the Company. I thought that the first Android on the Nostramo was a Company agent only. I could not determine whether Bishop was also used by the Company. My recollection is that all Marine companies included an overt Android as part of their complement. Therefore Bishop should have been programmed to be the Good Marine only. It made sense, since the first movie included a scene (if I remember correctly) where the Company Android did a dissection of the (embryonic?) parisite carrier and could not locate sensory organs to speak of. > Has anyone who has read the book shed any light on this point? I too would be interested as I have not read the book either. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 86 19:28:52 GMT From: louis!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Woods) Subject: Re: Why Bishop gave the pistol back madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) writes: >Why would the alien wipe out a robot? Certainly not to eat or to >raise one of those things with. I think there's a limit to what >kind of hosts it can use, and that's gotta be out-of-bounds. Didn't stop the queen ripping Bishop to pieces! >Besides, it would just get in the way while he was crawling down >the pipe. I would guess this is the closest. If you designed a robot which wasn't allowed to harm humans would you teach it how to use a gun? When Bishop handed the pistol to Ripley I gained the impression he just didn't like guns (a bit like Dr. Who!). Mike Woods. UK JANET:mike@uk.ac.rl.vd UUCP: ...!mcvax!ukc!rlvd!mike ------------------------------ Date: 6 Oct 86 19:49:46 GMT From: c160-aw@zooey.Berkeley.EDU (Christian Wiedmann) Subject: Re: Aliens: Why did Bishop give back the pistol? Couldn't it also be because the androids basically are nonviolent? In the movie I didn't see Bishop actually do any combat. If androids at that time really were programmed with Asimov's law, this would seem to reinforce pacifistic tendencies. Christian ------------------------------ Date: 6 Oct 86 15:35:39 GMT From: ahh@h.cc.purdue.edu (Brentrock of Hyperborea) Subject: Re: Aliens: Why did Bishop give back the pistol? boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes: >What you described from the book is true, but it doesn't explain >why Bishop didn't take the pistol. That aforementioned attack >didn't take place until *after* Bishop left Operations for the >uplink tower,and thus after he refused the pistol. So he didn't >know when he refused the pistol that he was immune from attack. >Why did he say, "Believe me, I'd prefer not to go. I may be >synthetic, but I'm not stupid," if he knew that he was safe from >attack? Maybe he had a suspicion that the aliens wouldn't be interested in him, but, being "not stupid," he would have preferred not to take the chance, since he was probably programmed to preserve his own existence (to some degree or other--third law?). I know that I wouldn't want to go into a (even only potentially) dangerous environment like that, but I have inconvenient things like an instinct of self-preservation (you could say I'm programmed to preserve myself; third law of humanics?). Also, if I *was* going into an environment like that and somebody handed me a pistol, my reaction would be something like, "This? Against those things? Are you kidding? Gimme a bazooka!" Brent Woods USENET: {seismo, decvax, ucbvax, ihnp4}!pur-ee!h.cc!ahh ARPANET: woodsb@el.ecn.purdue.edu BITNET: PODUM@PURCCVM PHONE: (317) 495-2011 USNAIL: Brent Woods Box 1004 Cary West Lafayette, IN 47906 ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 86 21:22:00 GMT From: valid!gelfand@caip.rutgers.edu (Brooks Gelfand) Subject: Explosive Projectiles > Anyway, when the Marines first mentioned that they carried > explosive- tipped, armor-piercing rounds in their weapons, I was > delighted. Nothing better to use on an exoskeletoned beast than > something that would 1. penetrate that armor and 2. promptly blow > up. Like putting an M-80 or three inside a pumpkin -- kablooey. > Much better than, say, a lead slug or lead pellets. Not necessarily. My comments are of a general nature and do not refer only to the movie. Let's consider an exoskeletoned beast to be similar to a tank - armor on the outside soft vurnerable parts on the inside. Anti-tank projectiles come in three main types. Penetrateors such as APDS (Armor Piercing Disposable Sabot) which is nothing more than a tungsten-carbide chisel fired at approximately 6000 feet/second. When it hits, it punches a hole in the armor. Then it and the armor splinters bounce around on the inside until the come to rest in the soft vulnerable parts (the crew) killing them all. Rounds such as the "bazooka" and other rocket projectiles that use heat to burn through the armor. They breach the armor by melting it then spatter hot metal throughout the crew compartment killing the crew. They may also cause detonation of the ammunition and fuel carried by the target. Rounds such as HEP-T that coat the armor on the outside, detonate, set up vibrations in the armor causing it to splinter. The splinters then kill the crew. The problem with armor piercing round that are also explosive are two fold. The detonator must be robust enough to survive penetrating the armor yet quick enough to detonate while the projectile is still in the target. To complicate matters the target may be located from several meters to several HUNDRED meters from the muzzle. At close range we don't want the projectile to pass through the target and then detonate; at distance we don't want the projectile to detonate before it has penetrated the target. Examples of these two problems can be seen in certain events of World War II. In North Africa when the German 88mm gun was fired at lightly armored British tanks at close range the armor piercing high explosive shell would sometimes pass completely through the tank and then detonate. Of course the tank still had two 88mm holes in it (:-. An example of detonators not robust enough were American torpedoes. They were fast, and would penetrate the sides of ships. However, when they hit, the fuze was sometimes destroyed by the impact. This resulted in a hole in the side of the ship, but no explosion Both of these events are unsatisfactory and will, according to Murphy, occur at the worst possible moment. Last we come to the safeties on the fuse. The American 40mm grenade has two safeties, a set back and a rotation counter. The set back is activated by the acceleration when the round is fired; the rotation counter insures that the shell will not detonate closer than 30 feet from the firer. This would be minimum for any explosive projectile. After all, you wouldn't want to throw yourself flat on the ground to avoid enemy fire only to be blowen up by you own basic load of ammunition. That would add insult to injury. This is a lot of complicated and expensive machinery to add to a rifle bullet. For an armor (or exoskeleton) defeating anti-personnel (anti-bug) round, I would prefer a high velocity, heavy (to retain velocity) projectile capable of piercing the armor which would upset (so it would not exit) and bounce around inside destroying the soft vulnerable parts. This would be a jacketed lead (for weight) projectile with a penetrator core. Voila no moving parts, highly reliable, very effective, and cheap. Brooks Gelfand ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Oct 86 0824-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #341 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 10 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 341 Today's Topics: Books - Zelazny (13 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Oct 1986 13:08 EDT (Wed) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> To: michael%maine.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Michael Johnson) Subject: Amber (Zelazney) Did you ever read Jack of Shadows? Jack is inside a jewel hung about the neck of the Lord of the Bats, who is in the jewel with Jack, giving an infinite recursion. Also, I wouldn't be too sure that Corwin can't shape-shift by this point. After all, when did Oberon first appear in the first set of Amber books? When did we find that out... Also, remember Merlin's comments in Trumps: first, that walking the Logrus can drive you temporarily insane, and second, much later (or earlier), that Corwin was rumoured to be loony when he left the Courts of Chaos. Coincidence? Final point. Remember what it means, at least according to Dworkin, when you inscribe a Pattern? You become it, it becomes you. Your injuries are its injuries, its injuries are yours, but you can't be hurt unless it is first, and it can't be hurt unless you are first, etc. Of course, Dworkin made a slight miscalculation, in that the blood of his descendants could also hurt his Pattern, but...Anyway, considering all that, what does Corwin's having created a Pattern REALLY mean? Is he now invulnerable...? ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 1986 12:58 EDT (Wed) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> To: loral!dml@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Lewis) Subject: Amber -- WITH MAJOR SPOILERS As a matter of fact, in Blood of Amber, Fiona tells Merlin that so far no one has been able to so much as touch Corwin's pattern. He tries it, and claims to be unsuccessful, but later admits, to the reader, that he could reach it but didn't want to give that away. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 86 17:25:35 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: nitpicking Amber question >The link holds through at least eight generations of lineal descent >(Dara was Benedict's great-great- granddaughter) but it's not clear >if it holds for other relationships. I recently reread the first series (all five books in two sittings) and seem to recall that Dara merely posed as Benedict's daughter to get Corwin into trouble (and herself into a different kind of trouble...). Have I forgotten this being turned around again later? Also, does Dara actually walk the Pattern (gaining general shadow-walking ability), or merely pass through Shadow on the Black Road? And a trivia question: Where does the name Ganelon originate? There's one derivation that's almost certain given what we know about the Ganelon that Corwin knows.... ------------------------------ Date: 6 Oct 86 22:53:36 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: History of the Universe up to _Blood of Amber_ (Zelanzy) >The Amberites move through shadow easily only in the portion of the >Universe under the effect of the Pattern. As they get closer and >closer to Chaos, they find it more and more difficult to "shift >Shadow", because the more Chaotic shadows move and shift by >themselves, screwing up the mental-physical arithmetic processes >employed. > >As you suggest below, we readers are left to figure somethings out >by ourselves. I suggest that one of them is that the Lords of >Chaos can move through these changing shadows very easily, but find >it very difficult or impossible to move through the Shadows of >Amber. This is because their equivalent to Amber's Pattern is a >constantly changing thing. This seems plausible. Note that the black road not only enables the forces of Chaos to attack Amber, but also enables the forces of Amber to attack chaos. An interesting sidelight is that the words of Eric's dying curse are not reported, just that they were directed against the enemies of Amber. It is not implausible that that curse helped/enabled the Amberites to turn the road to their own ends. >> Second question. Dworkin and Oberon are shape-shifters, and >> apparently anyone from the Courts also have this talent. Why >> then don't any of the children of Oberon have this ability? Does >> walking the pattern do gene damage? :-) > >I seem to recall that Dworkin and/or Oberon told Corwin that he too >could do it, but that he had just never really tried hard enough. Not exactly. It is suggested that he might have the ability, but not stated outright. However, looking at the evidence instead of the statements of the characters, I note that no one appears with shapeshifting ability who did not grow up at the Courts of Chaos. Thus it seems that this ability is related to environment rather than to heredity. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 6 Oct 86 23:03:12 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: 'blood of amber' SPOILERS! ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes: >I agree, there's too much to tie up in one more novel. I would >expect another 7 book series. (Oh, joy!!) There were 5 books in the first series, not 7. Zelazny certainly is capable of ending this one in the next book if he wants to; I'm not at all sure that he does. I tend to take the title change for _Blood_of_Amber_ (it was going to be _Ghostwheel_) as evidence that the series has been rejuggled, and thus probably expanded. We shall see. By the way, I have a curious reaction to the Amber books. When actually reading them, they crammed full of events. Afterwards, when thinking about them casually, it doesn't seem like all that much has happened. But a closer examination reveals that the first impression was right after all: there *is* an awfully lot going on. Does anybody else share this reaction? Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 6 Oct 86 23:14:18 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Amber -- WITH MAJOR SPOILERS dml@loral.UUCP (Dave Lewis) writes: > Here is the way I understood the origins of Amber, Shadow and >Oberon: >In some manner [Dworkin] encountered the Unicorn and the Jewel of >Judgement ... In some wise he learned the Jewel's power, and began >to use it to impose the Pattern within it on the stuff of Chaos. >... > Then Dworkin fathered Oberon, and the Unicorn was his mother, and >Oberon became King of Amber, which was the First Shadow of >Dworkin's Pattern. I don't think the chronology is quite right here. I believe that Dworkin fathered Oberon *before* drawing the pattern. The evidence is not conclusive, but I think Oberon grew up in the Courts of Chaos. This seems unlikely if Amber already existed at that point. I have another question concerning chronology: when did Merlin grow up? Dara is impregnated by Corwin in _The_Guns_of_Avalon_, i.e., after Corwin's escape from the dungeons. From that point, the action is more or less continuous until the Patternfall battle, where Corwin and Merlin meet. It is stated that Merlin grew up at the Courts of Chaos. Yet it seems that time flows slower at the Courts than at Amber: Corwin spends a few hours there, yet is gone from Amber for a week. Am I missing something? Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 6 Oct 86 23:24:47 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Walking in Shadows 6080626@PUCC.BITNET writes: >First of all, is Blood of Amber available in paperback, or just >hardcover? Hardcover only. If you want to wait for the paperback, expect to wait a while. >I'm not sure about Dworkin. When Corwin [...] is leaving he sees >Dworkin's hand or something, and says something like "Whatever it >was, it wasn't human". So Dworkin and the Unicorn is not too >strange, since we have no guarantee that human is Dworkin's real >shape. It seems likely that it is. When Dworkin gets excited having taken Corwin's shape, he reverts back towards his normal human shape, not some monstrosity. It seems likely that the beast-shape reflects his madness, not his true shape. More to the point, as has been pointed out, we have no guarantee that the Unicorn is in her real shape. If only Chaos existed before the Pattern, then she must be a Chaos creature. (If she isn't, then who knows *what* she is!) Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 86 01:56:26 GMT From: iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Iverson) Subject: Re: Amber - Merlin From: cate3.pa@Xerox.COM >he has some drive, some discipline. But when taken to Corwin's >pattern he doesn't go in cause he is in a hurry to get back to >class. And there is no mention of him coming back, say that night. >He passed up a major chance at getting more power. He just never >seemed to have gotten around to walking the second pattern. > Have I missed something? I agree. Had I been in Merlin's shoes I would certainly have walked Corwin's Pattern as soon as I could arrange some unobserved (by Fiona at least) time. However, I believe that Merlin walking Corwin's Pattern will somehow lead to a reunion with Corwin - Zelazny is just milking the 'Where the hell is Corwin?' question for all its worth. Eventually (two or maybe three years from now) Merlin will walk Corwin's Pattern in a future Amber novel. I wish Zelazny would publish a bit faster. Tim Iverson iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU ...!ucbvax!cory!iverson ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 86 17:18:00 GMT From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: Shape-shifting (Trumps of Doom spoiler) > Then how can both Merlin and Dara do it? Dara is descended from >Benedict and Lintra, the hellmaid, so she has "law-and-order" in >her veins. Merlin is, of course, Corwin's son, so he does too. I >tend toward the belief that those who have mastered the Logrus have >the ability. Except in _Trumps_ Suhey and Fiona were quite excited about the idea of someone walking both the Logrus and the Pattern. Neither knew what would happen if Merlin tried it. You'd think that Suhey at least would have known if Dara had walked both. (Remember, Dara walked the pattern toward the end of the first series.) Since he didn't mention it, I assume Dara hadn't walked the Logrus. Therefore, walking the Logrus is not necessary for shapeshifting. Anyone taking bets on whether Merlin walks his father's pattern? With three primal forces under his belt, plus the power of Ghostwheel at his control, Merlin would be the most powerful being in existance. Humble and lovable.... > Walking in Shadow necessitates movement of some kind. Within >the confines of Corwin's cell, one can assume that there isn't >enough room for this. Thus, the Trump is necessary. Yes, this is consistant with the rest of the series. One makes small changes in a moving landscape. But if memory serves, Brand gained the ability to simply teleport. I wonder how he did that. Imagine a trump and pass through? Is concentration all it takes? I must say, I have really enjoyed this discussion thus far. Beats hell out of 120 postings on the significance of "Speak friend, and enter". :-) Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 86 10:42:40 EDT (Thursday) From: Salgado.WBST@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Amber - Shape-shifting ability The shape shifting ability of Chaos may be transmitted genetically with the Chaos trait being dominant over the Law's (the unicorn's inability to shape-shift). Let A be the trait to have shapeshifting, a the trait not to have shapeshifting. Chaos creatures are AAs; non-chaos is aa. Thus in the first generation, Oberon's chance of shape-shifting was 100% (he's an Aa). His children's 50% (Aa vs. aa), so its likely half his children can shape-shift. His grand-children of non-chaos spouses would have a 25% chance, while those of chaos spouses would be 100%. Another possible match-up is that the chaos trait is recessive to the unicorn's, but the unicorn was a partial creature of chaos (an Aa). Thus Oberon had a 50% chance of having the ability with a 100% chance of carrying the gene for it. Since he could shape-shift, he's an AA. His children wouldn't be able to shape-change (they'd be Aa's) but would carry the gene recessively. So Dara, a child of an AA and an Aa, had a 50% chance of being able to shape-change. David Salgado ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 86 10:56:12 edt From: Bard Bloom <bard@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU> Subject: Amber and Law and Chaos I don't think that the terms Law and Chaos in the Moorcock/D&D/etc sense apply to Amber and Chaos. The Courts of Chaos, though chaotic in flavor, are very orderly and quite stratefied; they are Lawful. Amber, made by the Pattern, has had a rather chaotic history even at its most peaceful. Various characters comment on this at appropriate times, but I can't remember who or when. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 1986 15:14 EDT (Thu) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> Subject: Amber Remember, though, that when you get near the Courts of Chaos, and the Shadows begin to run wild, they can be controlled by holding the image of the Pattern in your mind and imposing it upon the Shadows. To move through Shadow does require motion, but not necessarily in a straight line. As Corwin demonstrates in _Courts of Chaos_, you can make progress by going in circles. Has anyone considered that perhaps the reason that Dworkin needed to draw a trump to get back to his apartments was for no better reason than his mind was spinning out on a loop, and he had forgotten how to do anything else? Remember, he describes the damage to the Pattern as a hole in his own mind. This seemed to cause his powers to work rather oddly, or at least uncontrollably, at times. The Logrus does not appear to necessarily grant the ability to travel in Shadow. Else, why would Dara have had to walk the Pattern, and why would the Courts have needed the Black Road? And for that matter, if the Lord of Chaos could travel in shadow, why didn't they simply come to Amber and try to kill Oberon et al long ago? Unless they didn't know the way...Actually, one interesting possibility would be that the Logrus gives the ability to travel in Shadow only within a fairly short radius of the Courts. This would fit in nicely with the stuff in the first series about luring Oberon so far from Amber that he could be taken. This would also tie in pretty nicely with the Pattern's ability to "master" Chaos--to impose structure and form on it, making it, at least temporarily, no longer Chaos. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 86 13:30:31 PDT (Thursday) Subject: Trumping to Dworkin's apartment From: Kupfer.osbunorth@Xerox.COM >>(Remember though, that [Dworkin] has to 'sketch >>his way back into his own apartment' in the first book). > > Walking in Shadow necessitates movement of some kind. Within the >confines of Corwin's cell, one can assume that there isn't enough >room for this. Thus, the Trump is necessary. I think Dworkin could've walked back if he wanted to. But it was probably easier (faster, less tiring) to trump back. Remember the scene with Corwin and Brand (in Courts of Chaos, I think), where Corwin rides around in a circle so that he can escape through Shadow? Mike Kupfer ARPA: Kupfer.osbunorth@Xerox.COM UUCP: ...!ucbvax!kupfer ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Oct 86 0834-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #342 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 11 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 342 Today's Topics: Television - Battlestar Galactica (4 msgs) & Blake's 7 (4 msgs) & The Prisoner (2 msgs) & Star Trek (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Oct 86 01:19:39 GMT From: well!gremlin@caip.rutgers.edu (Gremlin) Subject: Re: Battlestar Galactica and Phantom Empire From: John McLean <mclean@nrl-cst.arpa> >>From: Brad Templeton >>I'm not sure I should admit I know this much about the show, but >>the "antichrist" figure, also known as Count Iblis, WAS the Cylon >>imperious leader, or the organic Cylon as some knew him. > > I like your history, but I'm having a hard time reconciling this > claim with my memory of an earlier episode that showed the > imperious leader at some Cylon celebration. He was a box-like > robot with a disk-shaped head on top. Anybody else remember this > episode? I do ! I do ! this was the 2 part episode with Lloyd Bridges as the commander of the Pegasus that was a battlestar thought destroyed in some other conflict. Apollo and co had to go to the nearby planet to get fuel and when they were blowing things up the imperious leader who was on the planet for some type of dedication or some such baloney instructed to "guards" or whatever they called them to find out what the commotion was and yes he was a robot. If I remember correctly in one episode Apollo was explaining to his son Boxie? that the cylon race was a warrior race that used to resemble lizards but found out the human form was better suited for their needs and developed robots to fight their wars. These robots eventually gained intelligence and rebeled against there masters and finally killed them off .... any more details ? BTW ... don't be afraid to admit that you watched this show .. it had some technical bad points but it also had a lot of potential ... and some of the stories I really enjoyed. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 86 10:00 PDT From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@VERMITHRAX.SCH.Symbolics.COM> Subject: Battlestar Galactica As I recall it, the Imperious Leader having Count Iblis' voice was used to imply that the Cylons were a product of the Count and that the Imperious Leader in particular (who was also a machine, although like Merlin much more sophisticated than the shiny foot soldier model) was made in his image. ------------------------------ Date: Thu 9 Oct 86 09:50:18-PDT From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA> Subject: Battlestar Galactica: The Imperious Leader According to the novelizations of the Galactica series, the Imperious Leader is a `third level robot' with Centurions being 1st-level (one brain), the I.L. series having two electronic brains (Lucifer, for example), and only one Imperious Leader with three electronic brains. As I sort of recall, the total knowledge of the Cylon Empire is available to the Imperious Leader. The Imperious Leader, although a robot, is built in the image of the original Cylons who were an amphibian race (crocodile/alligator). In the episode _The_living_Legend_ the Imperious Leader is briefly glimpsed. It is my belief that the voice of the Imperious Leader and that of Count Iblis (both done by Patrick "John Steed" MacNee) are intended to be the same to show that evil (in that part of the universe) are all derived from the same source. The Imperious Leader, by the way, is chosen from the I.L. series (Imp. Ldr.) when a new Imp Ldr is needed. Also, if it's not clear, Patrick MacNee did play the part of Count Iblis (memory says the episode titled _War_of_the_Gods_.) ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 06:45:23 GMT From: c160-dq@zooey.Berkeley.EDU (Kathy Li) Subject: Battlestar Galactica Question I remember someone being confused over how Count Iblis could be the Imperious leader, since the Imperious leader was this dog-faced machine. But he had to be because they had the same voice. In the two-episode story that Count Iblis appeared in, it was mentioned that the Count was one of the "angels", fallen, and that he had *programmed* the original Imperious Leader, which was why it had his voice. Cute, huh? kathy li ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 86 17:07:14 GMT From: cvl!kayuucee@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) Subject: Re: Blake's 7 (<Spoilers if you haven't seen the series yet>) Since ORAC doesn't appear until the last episode of the first season, the seventh member of the crew is Zen. You may not count Zen, but Terry Nation did. Afterall the six characters did not meet in the first episode, but over the first four episodes. I think that name "Blake's 7" was kept in the sense that you had a continuing story and after Blake left, there was always a possibility he would return. Characters kept coming and going that it would have been silly to rename the show every time a change in crew was made. From one season to the next you want the viewers to be able to find the show. You must realize that with 13 episodes a season for "Blake's 7" there was a LONG break between seasons. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 86 15:35:22 GMT From: hrcca!jean@caip.rutgers.edu (Jean Airey) Subject: Re: Blake's 7 (<Spoilers if you haven't seen the series yet>) From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson >Say what?!! Only two more appearances and that's it??!!!! What >gives???!! I mean, how can they call it "Blake's 7" if Blake isn't >in it? That would be like "Doctor Who" without the Doctor, wouldn't >it? They might as well "Blake's 7" was never a show that relied on *any* single person. > have renamed it "Avon's 5", or something like that. Paul Darrow wanted it renamed "Avon's Angels" :-) but the BBC wouldn't go along. When you've got a hit show called something, you don't change the name. It might confuse the viewers :-) If you watch carefully, much of the third season is spent looking for Blake and in the fourth Avon even joins the rebellion. Also, even though Blake has left, the group is still identified as "You're Blake's people." (Rumours of Death). >Which brings up another point: In the first season there were only >6 humans on the ship (I don't count Zen and ORAC as part of the >crew, since they are only computers). Both Zen and ORAC are officially considered as part of the crew. >One more question: Why did the actor playing Blake leave? Gareth Thomas left because he felt the show was getting too unrealistic. He was also frustrated as they tried to make his character THE HERO & wouldn't let him do things that he felt a real rebel leader would do -- like break people's necks. He was offered a chance to go with the Royal Shakespeare Company and decided to take it. Jean Airey: US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506 ihnp4!hrcca!jean ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 86 13:12 EST From: JESUP RANDELL <JESUP@ge-crd.arpa> Subject: Blakes 7 > WHy did the actor playing Blake leave? From what I heard, the series was to be cancelled after one season, and the actors were let go. then they decided to continue it, but couldn't get all the actors back. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 86 18:47 EST From: Rich Welty Subject: Wanted: Blake's Seven Information Can anyone give me a rough breakdown of the the 4(?) seasons of Blake's Seven (number of episodes/season, # actors in the crew, etc ...). I am currently watching what I think is the third season (Avon in charge of the ship, different opening credits, etc.). No spoilers, please ... Thanks in advance, Rich ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 86 19:12:04 GMT From: mlandau@Diamond.BBN.COM (Matt Landau) Subject: Re: Answers to Prisoner Quiz brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes: >>7. "You are number 6." >>[4 pts] What other numbers did the Prisoner have during his stay? > >#12 in Schiziod Man, #2 in Free for All and Fall Out, and #1 in >Fall Out. He was *not* number 2 in Fall Out. In fact, he didn't HAVE a number in Fall Out until the very end. ("We thought you would feel more comfortable as...yourself," says the Supervisor as he's led to his old black suit.) >>[3 pts] What was the Prisoner's real name? > >John Drake. (No question on this, as the next question reveals) > >>8. "I am not a number, I am a free man!" >>[6 pts] When was the Prisoner's real name used to address him >>during the series? > >It is said in frenzy and muddled, but he calls him "Drake." >He also used the term "Jackie" - short for John. Hope, sorry. If you listen VERY carefully to what Number 2 (Leo McKern) says in the guise of the school master during "degree absolute", it's "Report to my study in the morning break" -- NOT "in the morning, Drake." "See saw, Marjorie Daw, Jackie shall have a new master" is a children's nursery rhyme. Granted, it's approriate to what's going on, but it certainly doesn't imply that his name is John. Matt Landau mlandau@diamond.bbn.com seismo!diamond.bbn.com!mlandau BBN Laboratories, Inc. 10 Moulton Street, Cambridge MA 02238 (617) 497-2429 ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 86 13:59:47 GMT From: netxcom!rkolker@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker) Subject: Re: Answers to Prisoner Quiz mlandau@Diamond.BBN.COM (Matt Landau) writes: >Hope, sorry. If you listen VERY carefully to what Number 2 (Leo >McKern) says in the guise of the school master during "degree >absolute", it's "Report to my study in the morning break" -- NOT >"in the morning, Drake." > >"See saw, Marjorie Daw, Jackie shall have a new master" is a >children's nursery rhyme. Granted, it's approriate to what's going >on, but it certainly doesn't imply that his name is John. In addition to that, I clearly remember (although it has been a long time) that John Drake DIED (delivering something, a tape?) at the end of the last episode of Secret Agent. So unless Prisoner takes place in the middle of Drake's time in whatever British agency he worked for, the Prisoner CAN'T be Drake. Chew on that. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Dr. Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 ------------------------------ Date: 6 Oct 86 15:44:00 GMT From: silber@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: Star Trek's Century. >Mark Lewandowski writes about the episode, "The Squire of Gothos." >Trelayne (the "Squire" and alien brat-child) was studying France of >the 13th or 14th century (early Renaissance), which with Kirk's Actually, the Squire was studying Europe of the 18th century. He dresses in mid-eighteenth century style (certainly no earlier than 1700), his manse is decorated in rococco style, and he plays a fairly late harpsichord. He also plays music which could not have been written before the Baroque era, and which I suspect was by one of the Bach kids. Also, his style of speech is rather reminiscent of early British colonial, what with comments on "Nubian slaves" and whatnot. A Frenchman of the 14th century wouldn't know what to make of a Black, and would probably assume said person was Moorish. (As an aside, in Wolfram von Eschenbach's Perzival, there is a character whose father was a Moorish knight, and whose mother was Caucasian. The character is, of course, piebald.) Ami Silberman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Oct 86 10:28:56 -0500 From: Bev Sobelman <bhs@mitre-bedford.ARPA> Subject: Star Trek century - can we stand one more comment? Having just watched 'The Wrath' last night, I just wanted to share two observations I haven't seen mentioned here yet (but then I've just discovered the net and may not have caught up completely just yet - forgive me if I'm being redundant). 1. At the beginning of the movie, when McCoy comes by with Kirk's specs and a bottle of Romulan hooch, Kirk looks at the bottle and remarks that the year on it is 2283, which suggests that we must be in the very late 23rd century (assuming Romulan booze ages like, say, Scotch). 2. For the record: when Khan relates his saga down on the Botany Bay, he cites 1996 as the year he and his crew went into cryogenic freeze; if they were frozen for 200 years, that means they've been thawed out for close to 100 by this time. (?????) Sorry if this has been beaten into the ground, but if anyone is still wrestling with it, I hope the above is useful. By the way, does anyone know anything juicy about ST IV? If there's anyone in the Boston area who's planning to go when it opens, I'm game . . . Bev Sobelman bhs@mitre-bedford.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 86 15:02:36 edt From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Star Trek: No Century of Progress The striking thing about the ST milieu is how similar it is to our own. It is more similar to our society than ours is to Edwardian England. Certainly someone transported out of our time would feel more at home in the ST society than in the Edwardian one. Not only is there virtually no social change, but there is also next to no technological progress. In the past fifty years technological progress has affected almost everything we do. The only aspects of ST technology which are beyond our current abilities are those required to make ST a science-fiction show: warp drive, impulse drive, phasers, photon torpedos, anti-matter, the transporter, better sensors, etc. Beyond these, people live much the way we do. It's what you'd expect in 2000 AD if some aliens showed up tomorrow and *sold* us a fleet of Enterprise-like ships. By contrast, imagine that a cheap and practical matter-antimatter power system were developed tomorrow. Consider how thoroughly it would change our technology, economy and culture within twenty years. Within fifty years. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 86 12:23:33 cet From: 7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: ST's Century and The Phoenix Greetings: One thing that no one has mentioned in the supposed 'error' in Kirk's remark about Trelane observing the earth of 900 years past is that if Trelane is using a super-duper light telescope, then HIS DISTANCE from earth becomes a major factor!!! If Trelane's planet is 900 light years from Earth, then Kirk's comment is justified.... As a sidebar, I have noticed several messages on the Old SF show The Phoenix. If anyone is interested, I have a number (not a complete set, unfortunately) of the episodes on videotape, Beta format. If anyone is interested, please contact me. If anyone out there DOES have a complete collection, I would appreciate hearing from you!!! George Madison 7GMADISO at POMONA (BITnet) ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 86 08:03:53 GMT From: ucdavis!ccrdave@caip.rutgers.edu (Lord Kahless) Subject: Re: Star Trek: No Century of Progress From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) > By contrast, imagine that a cheap and practical matter-antimatter > power system were developed tomorrow. Consider how thoroughly it > would change our technology, economy and culture within twenty > years. Within fifty years. Who said matter-antomatter containment systems were cheap? Starship class ships cost an incredible fortune! The power plants are a major part. In reality, the day in/day out planet bound people's living standards are, in some ways, not all that removed from middle class people of today. Some new gadgets, but no personal transporter stages, or personal shuttlecraft, or personal phasers. Electrical Power remains government controlled, and is limited. Also, how would morals and other social behaviors on the typical working planet be influenced by a handful of people in starships? Beyond a new source of source material for the prime time TV shows, of course. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Oct 86 0856-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #343 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 14 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 343 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson & Asimov & Burroughs & Cameron (3 msgs) & Capps & Galouye & LeGuin & Myers (2 msgs) & Alternate Earths & Star Trek Stories (2 msgs) & Cyberpunk & Printing Histories & Series & A Story Request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eyal mozes <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@violet.berkeley.edu> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 86 11:37:21 -0200 Subject: Re: DaVinci Cc: abl@ohm.ece.cmu.edu >DaVinci figured in a short story I read some 15+ years ago. I >can't remember the author (maybe Poul Anderson ?) and it was a >foreign edition. The story is "the light", by Poul Anderson. Unfortunately, I also read it in a foreign edition, and I've no idea where the original can be found. Eyal Mozes BITNET: eyal@wisdom CSNET and ARPA: eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA UUCP: ...!ihnp4!talcott!WISDOM!eyal ------------------------------ Date: 11 Oct 86 02:31:01 GMT From: gouvea@husc4.harvard.edu (fernando gouvea) Subject: *FOUNDATION AND EARTH*(Spoilers) FOUNDATION AND EARTH Isaac Asimov This is the latest step in Asimov's project of uniting all of his novels into one grand design, and especially of connecting the Robot novels to the Foundation series. It is at the same time very interesting and a little frustrating. This one takes place almost immediately after the events in FOUNDATION'S EDGE; Golan Trevize, having chosen "Galaxia" (a sentient, united galaxy) as humanity's future, begins to question his decision, and decides, in a flash of intuition, that he must go to Earth to find answers to his doubts. And so he does. On the way, many of the mysteries created in the previous books (most notably ROBOTS AND EMPIRE) are resolved, everything is nicely concluded, R. Daneel Olivaw's role is made (more) clear, and an opening for a sequel is set up. Nice, pleasant reading. So why the frustration? The problem is that, in joining together the Robot and the Foundation novels, Asimov has sacrificed the basic themes of each, and hasn't really replaced them with anything interesting. The Robot novels had as a central strand the idea that eventually robots and people should be able to live together in a balanced situation. However, since he wants to get to the Foundation universe, Asimov must disturb this development. No robot-human society is set up; rather, robots, in the person of Daneel, assume a paternalistic role and are the hidden planners of humanity's future. The Foundation Trilogy was, to a large extent, about determinism versus free will, but also about politics and the state. The last two novels have veered into a discussion of individuality versus collectivity. And the last paragraph of this book suggests that the next step is aliens. I would much rather Asimov would write novels set in new contexts. Part of the sf game is creating new possible futures. This one is getting old. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 86 17:23:04 GMT From: inuxh!verner@caip.rutgers.edu (Matt Verner) Subject: Re: ERB > Does anybody out there like Edgar Rice Burroughs books? I've > read the moon, Mars, Venus, and Pellucidar series, but none of the > Tarzan books. I for one grew up on the Mars series. ERB's descriptions of exotic people, fantastic scenery and heroic efforts hooked me on SF. Although I quickly 'outgrew' (not trying to sound to snobbish here) his stories and moved on to grander ideas, I still reread the first three books (The Princess of Mars, The Gods of Mars, The Warlord of Mars) every couple of years. Kinda like watching a M*A*S*H rerun, it just feels good! Matt Verner AT&T Consumer Products Laboratories P. O. Box 1008 Indianapolis, IN 46206 UUCP: ...ihnp4!inuxc!verner AT&T: (317) 845-3631 ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 08:26 PDT From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM Subject: The Mushroom Planet Ah, yes, haven't thought about those Eleanor Cameron books in years. I sure liked them as a kid--maybe it's time for me to hunt them up for my own collection. I seem to remember it was some for-schools-only publisher who put htem out, but I'm sure jayembee or others can flesh out that information... Marina Fournier Arpa: <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com> ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 11:28:39 EDT From: Jack Ostroff <OSTROFF@RED.RUTGERS.EDU> Subject: Mushroom Planet The fourth book was Time and Mr. Bass if I remember correctly. Indeed a great series. (Actually, I thought the first was Wonderful Flight to the Mushroom Planet, and I somehow remember five books, but . . . must be too many mushrooms :-)) Jack (OSTROFF@RED.RUTGERS.EDU) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 86 14:43:18 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: theme story request (counter earth) The Mushroom Planet is NOT Counter-Earth; it's in a 50,000 mile orbit \around/ earth (just happens to be invisible unless you have the special filter for your telescope). ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 08:47:46 GMT From: akov68.dec.com!boyajian@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: re: Search for C.C. MacApp/Carroll M. Capps > From: psuvm.bitnet!giz (Jeff Ganaposki) > 'Way back in the forgotten past, there was a few books published > by an author with the (pseudo)name of C.C. MacApp and/or Carroll > M. Capps. You may have heard or read of them: "Worlds of the > Wall" "Recall not Earth" "Secret of the Sunless World" "Prisoners > of the Sky" Carroll M. Capps was the real name, C.C. MacApp the pseudonym. Not much is known about the writer (that I can find in my references, anyways), other than that he died in 1971. In addition to the four novels you list, he had three novels published: OMHA ABIDES (Paperback Library, 1968) SUBB (Paperback Library, 1971) BUMSIDER (Lancer, 1972) In addition, he had about 40 short stories published in the sf magazines --- most notably GALAXY and IF --- from 1960 to 1971. Some of these stories were expanded or connected together to form the above novels. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 17:50:20 GMT From: moews@husc4.harvard.edu (david moews) Subject: Re: Story request laura@hoptoad.UUCP (Laura Creighton) writes: >Also, while I am at it, I want the name of a book that I read which >convinced me that science fiction was ot worth reading... ...All I >recall about it is that roughly 2/3rds of the way through the story >the value of PI changed in one decimal point, and I gave up in >disgust. I think that it was called something like *The >Transcendental Man*. WHen I bitterly complained to my father, he >told me that all science fiction was like that, and pointed me at >Rex Stout. Anybody know that book? This sounds like _The Infinite Man_ by Daniel F. Galouye (Bantam Books, 1973), about a man whose unconscious was continuously creating the universe (or something like that.) The value of pi changed, I think, to a rational number (exact value not revealed; the rationale was that the Creator was having some trouble with inconsistencies in the Universe, and that this change would make things simpler to keep track of.) David Moews moews@husc4.harvard.edu moews@harvsc4.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 86 17:03:38 GMT From: eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu (David Eppstein) Subject: Earth in LeGuin's stories EVANS@TL-20B.ARPA writes: > Although the Hainish novels form a more or less consistent > universe, I have the strong feeling that there are contradictions. > In "The Dispossessed" earth is a ruined world, but I have the > strong memory that it is OK in another novel. Is anyone's memory > better than mine? As evidenced by the fact you mentioned that the ansible is invented in TD and used in all her other fiction, TD is very early in LeGuin's chronology. There's a book set much later on Earth soon after the "Time of the Enemy" called City of Illusions, in which the place has apparently long since recovered. I believe The Left Hand of Darkness is also set later than that, since it also mentions the Enemy (and implies if I remember correctly that Earth is fine). David Eppstein eppstein@cs.columbia.edu seismo!columbia!cs!eppstein ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 86 15:54:54 GMT From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) Subject: Re: Myers brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu writes: >I don't believe The Harp and the Blade is about CONAN, just about >some guy named Conan. It is a real name, after all.... Conan was a Celtic mythic hero. I've always heard it pronounced Khan-an, accent on the first syllable. >One question: Why didn't Silverlock take that last drink?!?!?!? Interesting question. The third drink is supposed to confer the power of creativity. It isn't automatically bestowed. (That is one of the points from the trial scene that is in Mephisto's favor). I think Shandon doesn't get a third draught because he failed to write a poem along the river. Isaac Walton commented at the time that it ought to have been easy, as he had time, setting, inclination, and means at hand. I also think one of the points is that not everything has to work out perfectly in life. The fact that Shandon gets as far as he does by the end of the story, given that he started as a self-centered, egotistical twit, is already impressive enough. Making him over into a full-fledged bard in a year's time is asking a bit much, I think. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 86 17:32:58 edt From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: The Moon's Fire-eating Daughter TMFED is a sequel to Silverlock in only the weakest sense. Calling it a sequel on the cover probably caused a lot of people to buy it who wouldnt have, otherwise. It does not take place in the Commonwealth. It is a much lighter and less ambitious book than Silverlock. Silverlock ends with the protagonist taking two quaffs from the spring but not being able to hold his water well enough to take the third one, which would make him a bard. TMFED, on the other hand is about someone (in a marginally more mundane setting) who does take that third drink. The book has some interesting ideas about what makes good poetry. It is worth reading on its own merits, but anyone looking for a sequel to Silverlock will be disappointed. Dain Zweig ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 07:38 CDT From: MSgt Robert L. Stevenson <DOET.AFCC@AFCC-3.ARPA> Subject: Re: Alternate Earths I'm suprised that noone has mentioned "Echo X" by Ben Bova, but then again it's been some time since I read it and maybe it has slipped from popularity. Steve ARPA: DOET.AFCC@AFCC-3.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 86 14:42:38 EDT From: salamir%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Kirk/Spock love stories I am looking to build a collection of those esoteric 'fan' stories in which Kirk falls for Spock, or vice-versa. Can anyone point me towards sources for these tales? Sal ------------------------------ Date: Fri 10 Oct 86 20:46:28-EDT From: Rob(s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet) Subject: ST story request Cc: wccs.e-simon%KLA.WESLYN%Wesleyan.Bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU I recall reading a Star Trek story years ago in which Kirk, Spock, and (I think) Bones ended up in a planet-sized "environmental" zoo. They beamed onto a planet, and found that the environment was divided into squares. There was no transition between environment, just a sharp dividing line. The thing that called their attention to the fact that something screwy was going on was when they found themselves on the line between a jungle and a desert. Eventually, they find out they're in a giant zoo, as exhibits. I believe this was a novel, not an episode or short story, although I may be wrong. I do, however, remember enjoying it immensely. It's _not_ "The Menagerie" (or "The Cage," if you prefer that title). Anyone recognize it? Please e-mail me a copy of your replies, as my reading of the digest is sporadic at best. Rob Freundlich Wesleyan University s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 7 Oct 86 17:20:00 GMT From: hsu@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU Subject: Quasi-cyberpunk novels Two pre- and post- and quasi-cyberpunk novels in response to the request: NICHOLAS YERMAKOV JOURNEY FROM FLESH This looked really attractive at first: strange parasitical alien lizards, colorful and bizarre characters, interesting scenario. I gave up after about 60 pages. The writing is atrocious, the dialogue is wooden, and there is little characterization to speak of. Avoid like the plague if you demand decent writing with your science fiction props. KARL HANSEN DREAM GAMES A section of this novel appeared in a issue of Omni. This is really more "genetic engineering-punk" than cyberpunk. The writing is competent and does a good job of evoking exotic futuristic scenarios. The plot is the standard "self-discovery" adventures of two genetically altered renegade human thieves. Warning: many situations involving child abuse, sexual deviation and bestiality which may be offensive to even a science fiction reader who's "seen it all." A gripping thriller, highly recommended. Bill Hsu ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 10 Oct 1986 01:16:41-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Printing History Query > From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) > Does anyone know whether publishers are under any legal obligation > to print accurate printing histories? Or are they just responding > to accepted standards? Publishers are not under any legal obligation to print the publishing history of a book. Their only obligation in this general area is to print an accurate copyright notice. As for your couple of examples--- (1) THE GOLDEN PEOPLE: You don't think that a version 1-1/2 times the size of the original is "substantially different"? (2) SWEET DREAMS, SWEET PRINCES: Actually, this is the title of the ANALOG serial version, so it's a restoration of the original title, not a malicious re-titling. The sort of publishing practices that you cite may be sneaky and unethical, but they are not illegal. The only thing you can do is to write the publisher in question and make your complaint, perhaps threatening to not buy any of that publisher's product while you're at it, if it means that much to you. Bottom line: Caveat emptor! --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 86 08:35:56 GMT From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: Dray Prescot mpm@hpfcms.HP.COM ( Mike McCarthy ) writes: >> ... Face it, how many other series, by one author mind you, can >> claim over thirty titles? Dumarest is the only one I can think >> of. > The Doc Savage books by Kenneth Robeson number well in excess >of 100 novels (or novellas, depending on your definition). The thing about most series is that they are that -- series. 'Dray Prescot' is interesting because it comes closer to being a single, continuous narrative, rather than a semi-connected series of essentially independent stories. Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 86 09:02 CDT From: "David S. Cargo" <Cargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: Story Request A long time ago, I read a collection of short stories that contained a story titled (as I recall), "The beat cluster." Could some kind, knowledgable person tell me the name of the collection, the date of publication, and the author? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Oct 86 0921-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #344 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 14 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 344 Today's Topics: Films - 2001: A Space Odyssey (3 msgs) & Counter Earth Films (2 msgs) & Hellraiser & Star Trek (10 msgs) & Star Wars ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Oct 86 18:11:16 GMT From: uwmacc!demillo@caip.rutgers.edu (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: Voice of HAL-9000 From: karger%ultra.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM >> According to my foggy memory, Douglas Rains was a RAF Air >> Traffic Control Officer picked because of his voice. No prior >> acting experience whatsoever, and I don't know if he has done >> anything else. > >Douglas Rain, the voice of HAL-9000 was a quite distinguished >Shakespearean actor, prior to his work in 2001. That's true. the confusion on the part of the original poster may be this: The voice (and face) of CapCom in the 2001 Discovery bridge scenes did indeed belong to an air traffic controller. Kubrick wnted a voice that look/felt like today's air traffic controllers - that sort of droll "Roger one-niner..." sound. Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center usenet: {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,topaz,decvax}!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ARPA: demillo@unix.macc.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue 7 Oct 86 14:52:50-PDT From: Lynn Gold <Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU> Subject: HAL singing "Bicycle Built for Two" According to Ed Feigenbaum, the first song to be sung by a computer using voice-synthesis was, in fact, "Bicycle Built for Two" (the correct name for "Daisy"). At a gathering a few years ago, he mentioned that this was what inspired HAL's singing in "2001: A Space Odyssey." Lynn ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 86 21:55:09 GMT From: crash!victoro@caip.rutgers.edu (Victor O'Rear) Subject: Re: HAL singing "Bicycle Built for Two" In fact I have the recording... Found on side two of the _Philadelphia_Computer_Music_Festival_ from Creative Computing (CR101) is the 1963 Bell Labs "Synthesized Computer Speech Demonstration." lasting 2:20 by D.H. Van Lenten. According to the jacket each of the nine control for the 34 phonetic sounds were individually keypunched onto cards and processed by a two-part program to produce a magnetic tape. This was then converted by a second program into an audio tape. The record even has him singing to a synthesized piano.. (Eat your heart out Max Headroom!) ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 86 22:36:45 GMT From: hoptoad!laura@caip.rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton) Subject: Re: Counter-earth (was Re: Theme Story Request) daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes: >There are two movies that i know of that involve planets on the far >side of the sun. Neither of the movies makes much sense, one makes >less sense than the other. > >In one movie, an astronaut heads in some funky orbit around the >sun. He get's back too soon. We eventually realize that there is >another planet on the far side of the sun that is exactly the same >as ours, but flipped, right for left. Astronaut eventually manages >to get launched back into orbit so he can recover his mother craft >and return to where he really belongs. Oh GOODY GOODY GOODY GOODY GOODY. I want the NAME of this movie. You see, it was my *very first exposure* to science fiction. (Yes, we didn't have a television at home. And they didn't show Star Trek in England anyway. Besides, I am older than that.) And I walked away from that movie (in those days we went to movies only about twice a year; come to think of it, that is what I do now as well) with an overwhelming urge to find more things like that to read. And it was only a few years later when a curiousity about porpoises lead me to Arthur C Clarke's *Dolphin Island*, and from there to the rest of Clarke that I learned that what I had been looking for was science fiction. I had always thought that science fiction was composed of parodies of science, which for me was obscene. I want the name of that movie!! Anybody remember? Also, while I am at it, I want the name of a book that I read which convinced me that science fiction was not worth reading. (On one book - blush, and the recommendation of my father, whom I introduced to the good bits of science fiction.) All I recall about it is that roughly 2/3rds of the way through the story the value of PI changed in one decimal point, and I gave up in disgust. I think that it was called something like *The Transcendental Man*. WHen I bitterly complained to my father, he told me that all science fiction was like that, and pointed me at Rex Stout. Anybody know that book? Laura Creighton ihnp4!hoptoad!laura utzoo!hoptoad!laura sun!hoptoad!laura toad@lll-crg.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 13 Oct 86 06:20:46 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Counter-earth (was Re: Theme Story Request) We have gotten one wrong answer on the net, I feel justified in responding in public. The counter-earth film is DOPPLEGANGER (American title JOURNEY TO THE FAR SIDE OF THE SUN) directed by Robert Parrish in 1969. It starred Roy Thinnes, his wife Lynn Loring, Herbert Lom, and Patrick Wymark. Apparently the counter-earth was symmetrically opposite to Earth about a point. Being symmetrical about a line would not have given you the mirror image effect (merry-go-rounds have this sort of symmetry) and symmetrical about a plane (like looking into a mirror) would have had the two planets collide every six months. Symmetry about a point does give you mirror image. There were other problems with the symmetry. When someone on this side says "Mars is at the nearest it gets right now" presumably his doppleganger on the other side is saying the same thing, but Mars surely would not be at its nearest point to both planets at the same time. Symmetry around a point would make Polaris the south pole star for the counter-earth. At least that is how someone with a mathematical turn of mind might look at the film. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 1986 23:51:40 PDT Subject: Hellraiser (Clive Barker) From: Tom Galloway <GALLOWAY@B.ISI.EDU> Production starts this week in England for Hellraiser, a "horror film homage to Pandora's Box" (L.A. Times), written and directed by Clive Barker for spring release. tyg ------------------------------ Date: 7 Oct 86 19:52:53 GMT From: dartvax!chelsea@caip.rutgers.edu (Karen Christenson) Subject: Re: The Phoenix >It was not Khans son. Unless you think that the character was only >15 yrs old in the movie. I guess it could be the son of his by >other then Lt Mcgivers though. Isn't it amazing how ST creeps into >everything. I don't know how they reconcile the time difference but - in an interview in one of those magazines you can pick up at the theater, Judson Scott discussed his role in STII and said it was that of Khan's son. That was kind of the picture I got from the movie anyway, before I read the article. Karen Christenson ...!dartvax!chelsea ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 86 12:15:32 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Khan's son Who was Khan's son? I never caught a reference to this in the movie or the novelization. Was it Joachim? I don't think he was old enough...or was his son born on Earth? Please clear this up. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 86 16:18:44 GMT From: griffith@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Cutter John) Subject: Re: Khan's son From: Garrett Fitzgerald >Who was Khan's son? I never caught a reference to this in the movie >or the novelization. Was it Joachim? I don't think he was old >enough...or was his son born on Earth? Please clear this up. I don't remember a specific reference to Khan's son, but I know a couple of things. Joachim was NOT Khan's son, or if he was, then Khan's wife from the big-E wasn't the mother. Joachim was in "Space Seed", but he was played by someone else and didn't really have much of a part. If Khan had a son, I'd prefer to think that Khan had him while on Alpha Ceti VI, and the son was killed before the Reliant picked Khan up. Hope this helps. Jim Griffith griffith@cory.berkeley.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 1986 23:49:14 PDT Subject: Star Trek IV release date From: Tom Galloway <GALLOWAY@B.ISI.EDU> According to the L.A. Times, the release date for ST IV has been moved up to Nov. 26th, the day before Thanksgiving, from December 19th. This was based on the enthusiastic response a sneak preview received last week in Tucson. tyg ------------------------------ Date: 6 Oct 86 06:02:23 GMT From: ur-tut!agoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Karl Cialli) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV release date At a movie theater this past Friday evening I saw a poster for STIV as the theater's holiday attraction. It was just the usual teaser with the Star Trek logo blazing down into the Earth's atmosphere heading for San Francisco, BUT it said that film was opening Friday December 12. This could just be in the northeast but I believe it's Paramount's nationwide release date. KC ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 86 00:03:46 GMT From: loral!jlh@caip.rutgers.edu (The Aimless Wanderer) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV release date I was in a theatre last weekend and they had Thanksgiving weekend as being the magic one for the release. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 86 20:54:15 GMT From: usc-oberon!bishop@caip.rutgers.edu (Brian Bishop) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV release date I saw a pre-release version of ST IV about 3 weeks ago. It was a 'rough cut', although most of the special effects were in place (and were pretty spectacular), but the soundtrack was obviously stock. I won't spoil it, but I will say this - only a select few of the jokes worked for me, and I was more repulsed than amused at what they put the (former) crew of the Enterprise through for this little adventure. I'm not a worshipper of the ST mythos, either. Put it this way - it's about as good as one of the more average humorous episodes from the original shows (i.e. it's no "Trouble with Tribbles", more like a Space Hippies [whatever that episode was called] quality show). As a side note, Leonard Nimoy was at the screening, but we didn't get a chance to chat with him. In way, I guess that's good; he directed the film. Maybe it'll get better in editing. ** I CAN'T RESIST! ONE SPOILER! HERE IT COMES!!!!****** Here's one lame example - you're at the San Francisco Whalearium (?), and all of a sudden Spock is gone. The you see him in the tank. Yes, he's...mind-melding with a Whale, his hand alongside the thing's head. Yech. brian bishop bishop@usc-ecl.ARPA bishop@usc-oberon.ARPA (uscvax,sdcvdef,engvax,scgvaxd,smeagol)!usc-oberon!bishop.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 21:00:53 GMT From: ihlpg!eagle@caip.rutgers.edu (John Blumenstein) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV release date Here in Chicago the Plitt Movie theaters had the smaller versions of the poster that people can take. I have it here on my wall. My wife is real excited because that is her birthday and she now knows what she wants to do on her birthday. We have not missed an opening night yet. By the way the poster is of the following "BEAMING DOWN TO EARTH DECEMBER 12, 1986." STAR \\ TREK \\ IV \\ Blasing down to a city that you can The // plainly see by the G. G. Bridge and Voyage // the TransAm building that it is S.F. Home // ------------------------------ Date: Sun 12 Oct 86 21:14:24-EDT From: Rob(s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet) Subject: ST IV Cc: wccs.e-siMON%KLA.WESLYN%Wesleyan.Bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU A friend just returned from UConn with a photo-packed booklet about ST IV. The pictures seem to back up all previous discussion we've seen on the net. There's a picture of what must be Kirk's trial, and several that show characters in what seems to be the 20th century. One picture shows Sulu flying a helicopter. I guess he can fly anything ! :-) Rob Freundlich Wesleyan University s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet.wiscvm.arpa USnail: Box 324 Wesleyan Station Middletown, Ct. 06457 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Oct 86 22:08:57 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Romulan Ale and Star Trek dates >Kirk cites 2283 as the date on the ale.... Okay, two possibilities. This was a Romulan date, or Kirk was converting the Romulan date into Terran Standard. I lean toward the Romulan date, myself, but only for the sake of keeping the show in the 22nd century. I will go with Khan's dating, rather than Trelane's. This would put "Space Seed" in the late 22nd century (200 years after 1996), and would allow "Wrath of Khan", which began with the words "In the 23rd century..." to be 2210 or so. Stardates are very screwed up. If I remember correctly, the episodes were about 1800-3500 (three years), STTMP was the middle 7000s, but TWOK was only 8000 or so! This means either someone screwed up, or the stardates rotate (0-9999-0-9999 etc.) Also, two details in the movie. When the Klingons show up on the screen, Saavik says something unintelligible, the "Mr. Sulu, get us out of here!" Did anybody manage to intellige that? Also, it was hard to tell, but it seemed that Peter Preston ran back to pull someone out from under a closing door, then the person ran off and Peter collapsed. Right or wrong? Also, someone probably will have posted it by now, but STAR TREK:THE NEW GENERATION WILL BE COMING TO TV NEXT FALL! I think it will be syndicated rather than on a network. I have a new idea on Genesis' instability. The Genesis torpedo destroyed the controller with the Reliant. Might this be why it was unstable? In the planned experiment, the controller would have been safely off the planet. Also, in one of my computer classes, they showed a recording of the summary tape, with commentary by someone from the graphics team that produced it. After the Genesis wave (neat name) passes the camera, it swoops down and goes over several mountain ranges. Except the last one. They wanted to pass over all of them, but the "camera" kept running into the last mountain. So, they drew a gorge for the camera to go through. Neat trick, eh? Well, that's all for now. KEEP ON TREKKIN'! st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 20:59:18 GMT From: tcdmath!jaymin@caip.rutgers.edu (Joe Jaquinta) Subject: Star Wars I (not IV) I have heard that they have started filming Star Wars I (or -3 if you prefer {-2 for mathemeticians}). Does anybody know if this is true and if so what is the supposed plot summary? j ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Oct 86 0939-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #345 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 14 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 345 Today's Topics: Books - Zelazny (15 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Oct 86 18:54:21 GMT From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) Subject: Re: nitpicking Amber question cjh@CCA.CCA.COM writes: >and a trivia question: where does the name ganelon originate? >there's one derivation that's almost certain given what we know >about the ganelon that corwin knows.... Come on, chip, give me a break! there's nothing trivial about the song of Roland. Its all VERY serious, and everyone in it thinks they are important. Oops, come to think of it, I expect most of the characters were versed in grammer, logic, and rhetoric. So maybe this is a trivium question after all. Ganelon, of course, betrayed Roland to the Saracens. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 00:08:02 GMT From: oliveb!trash@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Repa) Subject: Re: Amber Hope all you fans of Amber can help me. A long time ago I read one or two of the Amber books, and because of all the interesting things I read on the net, I would like to reread the entire series. So would some of you kind people like to send me the appropriate list of which books to read and in what order? I usually find libraries have 2 of an n book set in a particular set, and of course first editions which do not list the later books. Also, I recall reading that the series is not finished. Is this a series that will probably continue as long as Z. lives? Thanks in advance, Tom Repa (trash@oliven) {allegra,glacier,hplabs,ihnp4}!oliveb!oliven!trash ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 1986 03:04 EDT (Fri) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> To: cate3.pa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Amber--Merlin Seemed to me that the reason that Merlin didn't walk Corwin's Pattern when Fi took him there is that he didn't want anyone to know that he could. Later, he either never had time or perhaps couldn't find his way back. How does one get there after all? It's not "in Shadow" or in Chaos either for that matter. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 86 17:08:31 GMT From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: Amber - Merlin cate3.pa@Xerox.COM writes: > One of the things which bothered me in "Blood of Amber" is >Merlin's attitude. It seemed inconsistent at times. Here is a guy >who builds his own computer, no small task. Must have taken months >and months. So he has some drive, some discipline. But when taken >to Corwin's pattern he doesn't go in cause he is in a hurry to get >back to class. Ah! You missed a little bit of irony there. Merlin had no intention of walking that pattern, and was giving a lame sounding excuse to the reader (or whomever he's telling the story to) for why he didn't walk it. About Merlin and power... I don't know. It seems to me that he doesn't intentionally pursue power for it's own sake, but does it for the challenge. When he saw the pattern he 'knew [he] had to walk it'. I think he built Ghostwheel for the same reason -- not to exploit it, but just for the challenge of doing it. Merlin appears to disdain weapons, and only carries prepared spells around when he goes into a situation as the agressor. (Melman, the Keep of Four Worlds.) In this fashion he seems at his more arrogant, pre- ferring to depend on his talent for improvisation when threatened, rather than a prepared defense. Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 86 08:16:50 edt From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (laurence) Subject: Zelazny (Re the comment about Merlin's inconsistency). One thing you have to remember is that Merlin is a kid, relatively speaking. Also, he is far more of an Ivory Tower type than his father. Like Martin, he seems to just want to do his thing and resents the disruption of his life by these bizarre events. Also keep in mind that Zelazny is writing in first person, subjective; both Corwin and Merlin are not the most normal types by our standards, and Zelazny writes them that way. Merlin has done a couple of real stupid things so far, but done them in a way more or less consistent with his character. He is still learning to cope with his status; give him a few thousand years of this kind of thing and then see..... Name: Laurence Raphael Brothers Organization: Rutgers - The State University of New Jersey Uucp-Address: topaz!brothers Internet-Address:brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu Bell-Address: {+1 201 932 2706 | +1 201 878 1790} Postal-Address: BPO 29874 CN 1119 Piscataway, NJ 08854 USA ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 02:20:45 GMT From: gt-stratus!chen@caip.rutgers.edu (Ray Chen) Subject: Re: Amber - Merlin cate3.pa@Xerox.COM writes: >>Surely someone bright enough to build a sentient computer (a.k.a. >>Merlin) could see this potential for power and exploit it. > > One of the things which bothered me in "Blood of Amber" is >Merlin's attitude. It seemed inconsistent at times. Here is a guy >who builds his own computer, no small task. Must have taken months >and months. So he has some drive, some discipline. But when taken >to Corwin's pattern he doesn't go in cause he is in a hurry to get >back to class. And there is no mention of him coming back, say >that night. He passed up a major chance at getting more power. He >just never seemed to have gotten around to walking the second >pattern. > Have I missed something? You are missing something. Merlin has a very consistent attitude. He DOESN'T gather power for power's sake. What power he has was gathered to help him achieve certain goals. His primary goal until recently was simply to get to know himself better (mature). If you'll remember from Courts of Chaos, he sought his father out for that reason and that was the big reason why he wanted to walk the Pattern, so he could go off into Shadow and just live. There were really 2 reasons why Merlin didn't walk Corwin's Pattern. 1) He was in the middle of doing something else. 2) The Pattern will kill you if start walking it and can't finish walking it. Death is pretty high risk to take for power Merlin didn't really care about anyway. Merlin does have a consistent attitude and that's to live life the way he wants until something comes up that makes it impossible for him to do -- so in which he might get annoyed and do something about it (sort of like his father, huh?). He really couldn't care less about power for its own sake. It was this lack of concern for power that blinded him to the potential uses of the Ghostwheel. He designed it to be an information gathering device that would help safeguard Amber. He simply didn't see the other possibilities because it wasn't in his nature to automatically look for them. My guess is that having been burned once, he won't make that mistake twice but it's a little late now. Merlin's attitude on power is consistent with the rest of Zelazny's characters. Although most of Zelazny's stories deal with protagonists who can command an extrordinary amount of power, none of them were the kind of person who grabbed power simply for the sake of power. (Remember Sam, The Prince Who Was a Thousand, Pol Detson, Dilvish, etc.) For what it's worth, I agree with them (him). Being an epic hero sound grand and all, but having to fight the forces of darkness, consistently push oneself to the limit, make heroic sacrifices, etc., would be a real pain in the ass. It might be possible to really live like that, but I wouldn't want to. Much more pleasant to live a relatively calm life surrounded by family and friends. [*] Merlin's got some quirks but he's basically your nice sane kind of person with no delusions of grandeur. Ray Chen chen@gatech.UUCP [*] -- There's an ancient Chinese curse based on this idea. It goes -- "May you live in interesting times." ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 11:18:06 PDT (Friday) From: cate3.pa@Xerox.COM Subject: Amber >Seemed to me that the reason that Merlin didn't walk Corwin's >Pattern when Fi took him there is that he didn't want anyone to >know that he could. Later, he either never had time or perhaps >couldn't find his way back. How does one get there after all? >It's not "in Shadow" or in Chaos either for that matter. I missed something along the way then. Just where is Corwin's pattern? Was this mentioned in the book, or indirectly deduced? I've sort of been thinking that the patterns and chaos are like positive and negative electrons. With just one pattern and one chaos the field flowed from one to the other, but now is: + - + Ugh, can't draw in the field. Is this even a valid analogy? Have a good day. Henry III ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 21:28:03 GMT From: 6080626@PUCC.BITNET (Adam Barr) Subject: Re: Trumping to Dworkin's apartment Michael_D._Kupfer.osbunorth@Xerox.COM writes: >I think Dworkin could've walked back if he wanted to. But it was >probably easier (faster, less tiring) to trump back. Remember the >scene with Corwin and Brand (in Courts of Chaos, I think), where >Corwin rides around in a circle so that he can escape through >Shadow? Maybe Dworkin is omniscient, and knew that several books later Corwin would have need for a Trump of the Courts of Chaos. Therefore he drew the sketch on the wall of Corwin's cell, knowing that one day Corwin would investigate, and when Corwin did he arranged to have him find the Chaos Trump, and then scared him away before he had time to put it down. Adam Barr P.S. If you are putting spoilers, please indicate up until which book they spoil...if you just say "Amber Spoilers" I can't tell if you are ruining Nine Princes in or Blood of... ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 1986 19:14 EDT (Fri) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> To: cate3.pa%XEROX@EDDIE.MIT.EDU Subject: Amber Well, if that's the case, you'd have to walk through the Shadows cast by Corwin's Pattern to get there, and I wonder if that's possible if you haven't walked his Pattern first. Besides, one constraint that seems to exist in Shadow travelling is that you have to know how to get where you want to go, and different people seem to have different routes sometimes. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 05:33:00 GMT From: jimb@ism780 Subject: Re: Amber - Merlin > [...re:Amber] > I wish Zelazny would publish a bit faster. Tell you what, comrade. Try to write a passably readable novel, let alone a more than mediocre novel, and see how long it takes you. Meanwhile, don't mind me if I sit back and giggle. Publishing is a function of writing (Damn! What these scientists discover!). Jim Brunet UCBVAX/HPLABS/HAO/ICO/ISM780 SEISMO/SDCRDCF/ISM780C/ISM780 ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 17:50:50 GMT From: weitek!robert@caip.rutgers.edu (Robert Plamondon) Subject: Re: Amber - Merlin iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Tim Iverson) writes: >From: cate3.pa@Xerox.COM >>he has some drive, some discipline. But when taken to Corwin's >>pattern he doesn't go in cause he is in a hurry to get back to >>class. And there is no mention of him coming back, say that >>night. He passed up a major chance at getting more power. He >>just never seemed to have gotten around to walking the second >>pattern. >> Have I missed something? > > I agree. Had I been in Merlin's shoes I would certainly >have walked Corwin's Pattern as soon as I could arrange some >unobserved (by Fiona at least) time. However, I believe that >Merlin walking Corwin's Pattern will somehow lead to a reunion with >Corwin - Zelazney is just milking the 'Where the hell is Corwin?' >question for all its worth. Eventually (two or maybe three years >from now) Merlin will walk Corwin's Pattern in a future Amber >novel. I wish Zelazny would publish a bit faster. Merlin hasn't walked Corwin's pattern yet because he's been rather busy lately. Even if he could find the odd hour in which to walk it, he isn't in a position where making his life even MORE complicated is going to help. Robert Plamondon UUCP: {pyramid,turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 17:54:36 GMT From: weitek!robert@caip.rutgers.edu (Robert Plamondon) Subject: Re: Trumping to Dworkin's apartment Don't forget that Dworkin's apartment is right next to the Primal Pattern (down the cave, past Wixer; you can't miss it). This would make Trumping in far easier than shifting shadows. Robert Plamondon UUCP: {pyramid,turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 17:30:33 GMT From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: Amber (Zelazney) LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU writes: > Did you ever read Jack of Shadows? Jack is inside a jewel >hung about the neck of the Lord of the Bats, who is in the jewel >with Jack, giving an infinite recursion. I remember. That was a great book... > Final point. Remember what it means, at least according to >Dworkin, when you inscribe a Pattern? You become it, it becomes >you. Your injuries are its injuries, its injuries are yours, but >you can't be hurt unless it is first, and it can't be hurt unless >you are first, etc. Of course, Dworkin made a slight >miscalculation, in that the blood of his descendants could also >hurt his Pattern, but...Anyway, considering all that, what does >Corwin's having created a Pattern REALLY mean? Is he now >invulnerable...? Hmmm. Perhaps a little hyperbole on Dworkin's part... He later says that he can destroy Amber by walking the pattern then stabbing himself. Doesn't sound very invulnerable to me... Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 21:15:12 GMT From: hutch@volkstation.gwd.tek.com Subject: Re: Amber - Shape-shifting ability I've noticed several places where people assert that the "genes" of Chaos spawn are what allows them to shapeshift. What makes any of you think that "genes" have anything to do with Chaos? Genetic LAWS aren't relevant to beings from a place where only traditions have any continuing power. Incidentally, someone complained that Merlin shouldn't have been able to grow up in the time alloted. Sure he could. Time only flows at a single rate in a place dominated by (you got it) NATURAL LAWS! Chaos has very little in the way of natural law. A final comment. This discussion apparently went on inside DEC a few years back when Trumps of Doom came out. An upshot of that discussion reported to me was the theory that the Courts of Chaos are one of several "places" that manifested some form of stable reality and that other "places" could also exist, like the "place" where Dworkin stood when he inscribed the Pattern of Amber. There are a number of other "real places" and the Shadows were asserted to have ORGANIZED around the polarity between Amber and the Courts of Chaos, rather than to have been created by the manifestation of the Pattern. Has anything been revealed about how the Logrus was created? Or did it just happen? Hutch ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 86 12:11:48 edt From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (laurence) Subject: Zelazny A couple of points: (1) Ganelon is of course from the legend of Roland as retold in The Song of Roland. Ganelon was a famous traitor whose actions led to Roland's death; he is also a traitor to, umm, Uther, in Zelazny's books. (2) Real genetics is much more complicated than the simple Dominant-Recessive pairs that you learn about in high school biology. There could be a great many reasons why shape-changing is not inherited in such a simple manner, not the least being something magical and not biological! Name: Laurence Raphael Brothers Organization: Rutgers - The State University of New Jersey Uucp-Address: topaz!brothers Internet-Address:brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu Bell-Address: {+1 201 932 2706 | +1 201 878 1790} Postal-Address: BPO 29874 CN 1119 Piscataway, NJ 08854 USA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Oct 86 0955-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #346 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 14 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 346 Today's Topics: Television - Battlestar Galactica & Blake's 7 (5 msgs) & Secret Agent (2 msgs) & Star Trek (5 msgs) & Star Blazers & Anthologies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Oct 86 22:26:27 EDT From: ST701135%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Battlestar Galactica Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression I got from the first book in the novelization was that the cylons were an *organic* race, and not machines at all! Michael McClennen ------------------------------ Date: 10 October 1986 08:33:46 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson) Subject: Re: Blake's 7: the character of Avon >Now can you see this character opening himself up to another >person, as he would be forced to do in any relationship? (At least >as I have painted him.) I really can't. Avon is a loner. Let's >say 'Avon doesn't care for girls, he really doesn't care for >anyone/anything except himself.' > >The one time that totally disagrees with this is the episode >featuring Horizon, whose title I forget. In it Avon SHOULD have >said Goodbye. (Without needing the rationalization of the three >pursuit ships closing in.) Or actually, he wouldn't have even have >said that, it would have simply been 'Zen, plot and execute an >evasion course.' And the series would have been over. I haven't seen the episode (referred to above) yet, but I do recall that Avon was in love with the woman Anna Grant, and even went so far as to attempt revenge on the person who he thought had killed her, but when...well, if you saw "Rumors of Death" you know what happened, but if you haven't yet I won't spoil it. Carlo Samson U09862%uicvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 86 9:48:07 EDT From: "Darrell Ringler" <dringler@ardec> Subject: RE: Blakes7... Does anyone on the net have an episode guide for Blakes7 for the entire run of the series? I believe there was 4 seasons to the show, but a Starlog Television Episode Guide I have only lists 3 of the 4 seasons. If someone does have a list of all of the shows could they somehow get it to the archives at Rutgers maybe? I don't remember seeing a Blakes7 episode guide in the archives the last time I looked there. Darrell Ringler ARPAnet: <dringler@ardec> ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 13:25:35 GMT From: hrcca!jean@caip.rutgers.edu (Jean Airey) Subject: Re: Blakes 7 While the BBC was **habitually** late telling anyone that B7 was returning (even though it got consistently good ratings), Gareth Thomas *did* do two seasons & *might* even have continued if he hadn't been offered what he felt was a better acting opportunity. If he had stayed, we might have seen Avon get killed off by Blake. Incidently all of the third season cast and crew thought that "Terminal" would be the last show -- until the night it *aired* & the BBC announced "join us next year for further adventure of B7." What a way to run a network! BTW Terry Nation has a theory that Science Fiction is a *very* difficult thing for the BBC to handle, as it doesn't fall into one of their neat pigeon hole slots for tv shows. Jean Airey: US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506 ihnp4!hrcca!jean ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 17:39:56 GMT From: hrcca!jean@caip.rutgers.edu (Jean Airey) Subject: Re: Wanted: Blake's Seven Information From: WELTY RICHARD P <WELTY@ge-crd.arpa> > Can anyone give me a rough breakdown of the the 4(?) seasons of > Blake's Seven (number of episodes/season, # actors in the crew, > etc ...). I am currently watching what I think is the third > season (Avon in charge of the ship, different opening credits, > etc.). No spoilers, please ... Rich -- if I tell you even the NUMBER of actors in the crew in the episode it could be a spoiler. I have that info -- and I also have names if you wnat it and can give me a UUCP path that I can use I'll email it to you. In the meantime, these are the episodes that have been made to date with their original air date. Listing of "Blake's 7" shows: First year (Series A) The Way Back (1/2/78) Spacefall (1/9/78) Cygnus Alpha (1/16/78) Time Squad (1/23/78) The Web (1/30/78) Seek-Locate-Destroy (2/6/78) Mission To Destiny (2/13/78) Duel (2/20/78) Project Avalon (2/27/78) Breakdown (3/6/78) Bounty (3/13/78) Deliverance (3/20/78) Orac (3/27/78) Second year (Series B) Redemption (1/9/79) Shadow (1/16/79) Weapon (1/23/79) Horizon (1/30/79) Pressure Point (2/6/79) Trial (2/13/79) Killer (2/20/79) Hostage (2/27/79) Countdown (3/6/79) Voice From The Past (3/13/79) Gambit (3/20/79) The Keeper (3/27/79) Star One (4/3/79) Third year (Series C) Aftermath (1/7/80) Powerplay (1/14/80) Volcano (1/21/80) Dawn Of The Gods (1/28/80) The Harvest of Kairos (2/4/80) The City At The Edge Of The World (2/11/80) Children Of Auron (2/19/80) Rumours Of Death (2/25/80) Sarcophagus (3/3/80) Ultraworld (3/10/80) Moloch (3/17/80) Death-Watch (3/24/80) Terminal (3/31/80) Fourth year (Series D) Rescue (9/28/81) Power (10/5/81) Traitor (10/12/81) Stardrive (10/19/81) Animals (10/26/81) Headhunter (11/2/81) Assassin (11/9/81) Games (11/16/81) Sand (11/23/81) Gold (11/30/81) Orbit (12/7/81) Warlord (12/14/81) Blake (12/21/81) Jean Airey: US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506 ihnp4!hrcca!jean ------------------------------ Date: 13 Oct 86 17:32:33 GMT From: hrcca!jean@caip.rutgers.edu (Jean Airey) Subject: Re: Blake's 7: the character of Avon From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson >>Now can you see this character opening himself up to another >>person, as he would be forced to do in any relationship? (At >>least as I have painted him.) I really can't. Avon is a loner. >>Let's say 'Avon doesn't care for girls, he really doesn't care for >>anyone/anything except himself.' >>(reference to "Horizon") > >I haven't seen the episode (referred to above) yet, but I do recall >that Avon was in love with the woman Anna Grant, and even went so >far as to attempt revenge on the person who he thought had killed >her, but when...well, if you saw "Rumors of Death" you know what >happened, but if you haven't yet I won't spoil it. Yes -- watch the ending of "Rumors of Death" & tell me that this man doesn't *care* about someone. Also -- in "Sarcaphogus" (sp?) he apparently is concerned enough about Cally to come to her cabin to make sure she's OK. Sure he *seems* cold and unfeeling as far as the 'softer' emotions are concerned, but he sure can get angry & people who get angry are not really passionless people. He's just got real good walls -- after all, just looking at the series, how many times has/is he betrayed by someone he thinks he can trust? Jean Airey: US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506 ihnp4!hrcca!jean ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 86 15:00 pst From: "lamont steve%a.sdscnet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: "Prisoner"/Secret Agent trivia The song "Secret Agent Man" was done by Johnny Rivers. About 1965 or thereabouts, if memory serves. I think Devo did a cover version of it (which I liked much better) in about 1979. By the way, although I'm not certain of this, the Johnny Rivers theme appeared to be added on for American consumption. There was also a neat sort of Vivaldish harpsichord theme that opened the show that I've always liked. Can hum it to this day... This may be getting a bit far afield for this net but does anyone remember another McGoohan spy-type called (methinks) "Danger Man?" It might even have been earlier episodes of SA. Or am I confused with something else. Would've been out in about '64 or '65 (if anyone on this net is greybeared enuff to remember back that far...). spl ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 86 08:09:37 PDT (Wednesday) Subject: Re: SECRET AGENT From: "Jo_M._Anselm.henr801E"@Xerox.COM I understand that in England the series Secret Agent was known as Danger Man, and that the cartoon Dangermouse was a take-off of the show. I enjoy them both. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 86 15:18:00 GMT From: friedman@uiucdcs.cs.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: Star Trek: No Century of Progress Why do you say there is virtually no social change between our century and that of Star Trek? A lot of social attitudes are postulated to have improved by the time of ST: racial and gender equality, for example. (I know that some fans consider ST to be male dominated, but several of the more definitive novels -- e.g., the Vonda McIntyre novels of the ST movies -- postulate female ship captains and admirals.) Even more important, I think, is the apparent lack of warfare between nations of Earth. One of the most frequently cited attractions of ST is its optimistic view of future society. As for technological change, one doesn't expect the average citizen of any planet to be making daily use of its most advanced technology (when's the last time you got your hands on a nuclear reactor?). As someone pointed out already, matter/antimatter power generation is not necessarity inexpensive in the ST society. And on what evidence do you assume that much or even most power on ST's Earth is NOT generated by this means? (I don't recall seeing any generating plants in any of the TV episodes, movies, or even the novels.) Some of the novels make the (credible, to me) point that transporter use is a bit too expensive for routine planet-bound use except by the military. And many of the other advanced technologies are not necessarily applicable to daily planet-bound life. On the other hand, take note of Kirk's arrival in San Francisco at the beginning of ST-TMP. Doesn't exactly look like a BART station to me. (But maybe that's what BART will become in 200 years or so.) :-) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Oct 86 00:16:07 GMT From: rayssd!gmp@caip.rutgers.edu (Gregory M. Paris) Subject: STAR TREK: The Next Generation Paramount has announced that the new STAR TREK series is for real. There will be a two hour "telefilm" and 24 one hour episodes produced for the 1987 television season. I'm sure that all readers of this group will want to see the program be as good as possible, and I think the best way to ensure that is by having good writers. What would really be great is if episodes were written by recent Hugo and Nebula award winning authors. I'm urging all of you, as I have already done, to write a letter to Paramount Pictures Television, and let them know that you think that good writing is the most important aspect of this new STAR TREK series. Do it! For lack of a better address, I just sent my letter to Hollywood, CA (it'll get there), but if anybody has a better address, please don't hesitate to post it. But don't wait for that -- send your letter now! Think of how good the show *could be* versus how bad it *probably will be* if we all just sit around on our duffs. Greg Paris gmp@rayssd.RAY.COM rayssd!gmp ------------------------------ Date: 13 Oct 86 02:59:06 GMT From: isis!dragheb@caip.rutgers.edu (Darius "OPRDRT" Ragheb) Subject: Re: STAR TREK: The Next Generation gmp@rayssd.UUCP (Gregory M. Paris) writes: >Paramount has announced that the new STAR TREK series is for real. >There will be a two hour "telefilm" and 24 one hour episodes >produced for the 1987 television season. > >I'm sure that all readers of this group will want to see the >program be as good as possible, and I think the best way to ensure >that is by having good writers. What would really be great is if >episodes were written by recent Hugo and Nebula award winning >authors. > >I'm urging all of you, as I have already done, to write a letter to >Paramount Pictures Television, and let them know that you think >that good writing is the most important aspect of this new STAR >TREK series. Do it! For lack of a better address, I just sent my >letter to Hollywood, CA (it'll get there), but if anybody has a >better address, please don't hesitate to post it. But don't wait >for that -- send your letter now! > >Think of how good the show *could be* versus how bad it *probably >will be* if we all just sit around on our duffs. I would agree to do as you ask if they only named it something else. The words star and trek together (i.e. Star Trek) mean one thing: The Enterprise Capt. Kirk Mr. Spock Scotty Bones Chekov Uhura Sulu etc. Working together to make a team (that is Star Trek). I am not saying that the new program will be crap (but it might be...all indications of present network philosophy point to that being the case): but they should not (must not) name it Star Trek. UUCP: {hplabs, seismo}!hao!isis!dragheb ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 86 14:19 EDT From: <KGOODMAN%SMITH.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> Subject: New Star Trek episodes Several days ago in my usual early morning semi-consciousness, I heard on the news that they were going to be making new Star Trek episodes. These will be made with a completely different cast. I wasn't even sure I had really heard this until I talked to my brother on the phone and he told me he had read the same in the paper. Has anyone else heard about this? Is Roddenberry going to produce it? I can't imagine he'd sell whatever rights he has to the show, or that it would be successful without him. Comments anyone? Thanks, Kaile Goodman ------------------------------ Date: 13 Oct 86 17:50 EST From: JESUP RANDELL <JESUP@ge-crd.arpa> Subject: Star Trek lives again. I heard a news story over the weekend about a NEW Star Trek series, produced (and maybe directed) by Gene Roddenberry. It will be on independant stations, and will not be a continuation of the old series. None of the original ST actors will be in it, from what I gleaned. Anybody have any more precise info? Randell Jesup Jesup@ge-crd.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 20:20:24 GMT From: GB3@PSUVMA.BITNET Subject: UFO and Star Blazers Okay, so I'm into this cartoon called Star Blazers. What I want to know is is there any other fans out there we should know of. I am also looking for an episode guide and any info on merchandise and/or fan clubs. Also I'm looking for a UFO episode guide. Also one more thing, is Star Blazers available on videotape?? Thanx. Gary L. Bredbenner (GB3 at PSUVMA) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Oct 86 23:24:25 GMT From: udenva!showard@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve "Blore" Howard) Subject: Re: Review: TV Anthologies > chris@minnie.UUCP (Chris Grevstad) >>ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (Evelyn C. Leeper) >> >> TALES FROM THE DARKSIDE presented "The Circus," a fairly >>predictable story about a weird circus. . . Though predictable, >>it was well-acted . . . > >I heartily agree that William Hickey did an excellent job in this >show. Otherwise it was somewhat predictable. What's the most commonly used word in the above? What's the most commonly voiced criticism of this show? Predictability. Admittedly, there's a fine line between predictability and suspense, but Tales from the Predictable Side is way, way over on the wrong side of that line. I have yet to watch an episode of this show where I couldn't tell you the ending (in some degree of detail) within ten minutes. Steve Howard {hplabs, seismo}!hao!udenva!showard {boulder, cires, ucbvax!nbires, cisden}!udenva!showard ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Oct 86 0921-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #347 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 16 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 347 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Brin & Cameron & Clancy & Finney & Sturgeon & Weisbecker & Counter Earth & Mistakes in Printing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Oct 86 19:28:13 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: RACE AGAINST TIME by Piers Anthony RACE AGAINST TIME by Piers Anthony Tor, 1986 (1973c) A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper I hadn't read any Anthony for a while, but this looked like it might be an alternate history novel, and I did like some of his earlier works (I didn't realize at the time that this *was8 one of his earlier works). Well, my recommendation on this is that you pass it up. Aimed (it seems) at a teen-aged audience, it seems to consist of all those wonderful racial and sexual stereotypes that you had hoped science fiction had gotten rid of (at least I *hope* you hoped they had gotten rid of them). The message that Anthony is putting out is that racial purity is necessary to species vitality and, by extension, that miscegenation is bad. Anthony apparently thinks that racial lines are clear-cut and that the current racial groups are somehow internally "pure." That is horse-puckey and so is the book. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 86 12:02:34 edt From: firth@sei.cmu.edu Subject: The Postman The Postman, by David Brin It is finally out in paperback. I found it on Saturday and read it at one sitting. In my opinion, it is one of the best SF novels of the year. The story is the familiar post-nuclear-war one: things fall apart, and slowly get put back together. However, there are several new twists to the old plot, and the way things begin to get put back together is both plausible and thought-provoking. There are technical flaws. As with some of Brin's other works, the plot sometimes begins to unravel; there are digressions that lead nowhere, incidents that just happen, without seeming purpose, and so on. But the book's virtues are such that the story comes through, and with great impact. Why, though, is this work science fiction? After all, there is no technical gadgetry, no aliens or spaceships, and the setting is very near-future only to allow the author to suppose a collapse of some kind. But I think it is SF, and for reasons that, for me, provide some insight into what SF really is. First, the book fits the tag "the idea as hero". There are good people and bad people, cowardly and heroic acts, but there is no "hero figure", no competent protagonist who drives the plot. Gordon himself is no hero - he has many human failings and a persistent self-doubt. As the title says, the hero is "The Postman"; or, rather, the concept that the postman embodies, of communication between groups as an agent of cohesion. Secondly, the book is optimistic. Not in the shallow sense: everything doesn't turn out for the best, the ending is a pause in a process of reconstruction that clearly still might fail completely; defeat lurks in the wings. But it is optimistic in a much deeper sense: one of its themes is that our Western civilization is basically right; that the long vision of science - the understanding of Nature, and the harnessing of that understanding to improve the human condition - is a good and noble endeavour. And if there is any common theme behind SF, surely it is that one. I found this an enjoyable book, and more - a moving book Robert Firth ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 86 11:01 CDT From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: Mushroom Planet > undiscovered moon of earth, in orbit much farther out than Luna As I recall, it was much closer to Earth; that's why they could get there in a homemade ship. Brett (Slocum at hi-multics.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Oct 86 19:19:28 EDT From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU> Subject: "Science fiction" To: CS.VANSICKLE@R20.UTEXAS.EDU From: CS.VANSICKLE@R20.UTEXAS.EDU >Tom Clancy, the author of Hunt for Red October and Red Storm >Rising, was interviewed on National Public Radio's All Things >Considered last week. He said that every device and {_technology >used in his books already exists, and that he "doesn't want to >write science fiction." Don't get me wrong - the books are superb, >both the can't-put-down variety. I just thought it interesting >that Clancy doesn't consider them science fiction or futuristic. He was clearly using the term in a new and unfortunate sense. Some people say "that's science fiction" when they mean "that's impossible". Actually, GOOD science fiction of course consist of things which are NOT impossible. Clancy was just trying to say that he writes GOOD science fiction, and since he has fallen for the Harper's propaganda that all science fiction is bad, he feels he has to call his works something else. This is an unfortunate trend. He is not the first "mundane" writer to write on topics formerly relegated to the SF "ghetto". I hope he has not fallen into the trap that most of them fall into, i.e. thinking that he has come up with a new idea - an idea that has been old hat in the SF world since the 1930s. Keith ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 19:28:03 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Commentary on Jack Finney The Good Old Days Comments by Evelyn C. Leeper I just finished reading two books by Jack Finney: TIME AND AGAIN (Warner, 1974 (1970c)) and ABOUT TIME (Fireside, 1986). The former is a novel; the latter is a collection of short stories. Jack Finney is known (if not by name) to a generation of young adults as the author of "Of Missing Persons," a staple in most junior high school and high school readers that I've seen and included in ABOUT TIME. That's the story of the man who finds a travel agent who will send him to Verna, an idyllic paradise of forests, streams, and only "good" technology--there are washing machines, but no television. But he only gets one chance. Finney has also had several other stories which have been much anthologized, including another story from this collection, "The Third Level." If one were to characterize Finney, one would probably call him "Bradbury-esque." His short stories are often set in rural Illinois, and he spends a lot of time yearning for the "good old days." In "Where the Cluetts Are," a new house built from Victorian plans somehow drifts back in time and the occupants spend their hours playing croquet and sipping lemonade, then strolling into their mansion lit with flickering gaslight. Sounds great, right? Finney can make it sound so enticing--until you ask yourself what sort of plumbing the house has, and whether the occupants will get scarlet fever, and how they preserve their food. Such picky little details are avoided in Finney's nostalgia. "I Love Galesburg in the Springtime" is another story about how peaceful things were and how wonderful it is that a new factory isn't being built in town, since that would ruin the atmosphere. (The point-of-view character is employed, of course; one wonders what the jobless of the town would have to say if they were asked.) Though ABOUT TIME is billed as a collection of time travel stories, several of them have nothing to do with time travel. "Of Missing Persons" is one; others include "The Coin Collector," "Lunch-Hour Magic," and "Home Alone." In most of these Finney isn't so hooked on his anti-technology schtick--in "Lunch-Hour Magic" he even shows some of the benefits of advanced technology--and I found these more enjoyable. Finney's romantic (or perhaps I should say, romanticist) writing style is a joy to read. In TIME AND AGAIN, Simon Morley is just an average guy when he is recruited for a top-secret project: he is going to go back in time. The reason is not clear. He is told not to interfere, though that restriction seems to ease up as the novel moves along. His time travel method is similar to the one Matheson used in SOMEWHERE IN TIME; he puts himself in an environment devoid of 1970's technology, or for that matter, any technology since 1882. And he hypnotizes himself into going back. The novel is really Finney's portrayal of life in the 1880's in New York. He is too tied up with the wonder of the city to spend much time on characterization or plot (though there is a rudimentary mystery). If you're not a fan of loving descriptions of life a hundred years ago, you could skip this. (If you are, by the way, I recommend Mark Helprin's WINTER'S TALE.) Jack Finney seems determined to pick up where Bradbury left off in the paean to those wonderful days of yesteryear when life was simpler and things were better. The back blurb of TIME AND AGAIN even says "Would you like to travel back in time to a better, simpler world?" However, my tolerance for "good old days" stories is rapidly wearing thin, probably because the more the Moral Majority (or whatever they're calling themselves these days) tells me how I should want a return to the old-fashioned values, the more I remember all the baggage that came with them. Although Finney gives a nod to such advances as antibiotics, antiseptics, and anesthesia, he seems more interested in emphasizing the pollution, injustice, and pettiness of the present. Simon Morley even says, "We had a chance to do justice to our Negroes, and when they asked it, we refused. In Asia we burned people alive, we really did. We allow children to grow up malnourished in the United States." But Morley seems to have forgotten that every generation since the 1600's has had the chance to do justice--and didn't. He has forgotten the Inquisition and the witch trials in England during the Protectorate. He has forgotten that through most of history most people have grown up malnourished--if they grew up at all. One of the things the government agent tells Morley helps him pinpoint the year as 1970 instead of 1882 is the way that Morley and a passing Negro would "eye each other warily." Ah, yes, things were so much better back in 1882 when those other people knew their places. (That's sarcasm, folks.) Suffice it to say that while Finney writes these stories well, I can't bring myself to really like them. Like TOM O'BEDLAM, the writing style can't overcome my distaste for the world-view that Finney presents. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 19:27:53 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: GODBODY by Theodore Sturgeon GODBODY by Theodore Sturgeon Donald I. Fine, 1986 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper Sturgeon's last novel is pure Sturgeon. It's full of Sturgeon's philosophy of love and humanity. The characters are real and you feel as if you might meet them just around the next corner. But much as I want to, and as much as every one else is, I cannot whole-heartedly recommend this book. It's all a bit too obvious. Anyone who tries to write a story centered around a Christ-figure needs to do something different to keep it from being predictable, and this applies even to Sturgeon. GODBODY is enjoyable reading. Sturgeon's message of love is appealing but when you boil it down it's the same story as last time. While perhaps not as overdone in science fiction as the "Adam and Eve" scenario, the "Messiah with a message" story has become a standard and as such I find it hard to get excited over it this time. My recent reading has led me to conclude that I am beginning to develop a serious dislike for old themes, no matter how well done. If you don't have this reaction, then I recommend this book. If you do...well, read it anyway. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 19:27:46 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: COSMIC BANDITOS by A. C. Weisbecker COSMIC BANDITOS by A. C. Weisbecker Vintage, 1986 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper The tag-line ("A Contrabandista's Quest for the Meaning of Life") and the blurb makes this sound like a rip-off of/tribute to HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY. (Isn't it odd how a well-done work is a tribute, while a hack work is a tribute?) Well, it is and it isn't. At the start of the book, the narrator, his friend Jose, and his dog High Pockets are in hiding in the Columbian jungle. They had been trying to eke out a humble living as fantastically wealthy and dissolute Dope Lords, but a few things went wrong.... And then a few more things.... Having as a partner someone who believes that "there are very few personal problems which can't be solved by a suitable application of high explosives" didn't help. About a third of the way into the book you suddenly find yourself in the midst of some serious discussions of quantum physics and the conflict between the particle theory and the wave theory of light. If this sounds strange to you, imagine how it sounded to the contrabandistas after a few magic mushrooms. Eventually you discover that the plot itself is an example of the "new physics" in ways which are best discovered for yourself. This book defies description. It is a comedy, but it is also a treatise on quantum physics and a book about drug dealing and who knows what else. You will almost certainly get something out of it, though it may not be what you expected to get out of it. As if these weren't reason enough, you should read it for the thought-provoking quotes from well-known scientists sprinkled through it, such as Einstein's "God does not play dice with the universe" and Hawking's rejoiner, "Not only does God play dice with the universe, but sometimes He throws them where they cannot be seen." However, I can't help but feel that the author and the proof-reader were both high on the leftovers of Mr. Quantum's stash--Gary Zukav, the author of THE DANCING WU LI MASTERS, is quoted several times, and each time his name is misspelled "Zukov," and for some reason Jose's name has no accent mark. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 86 12:13 EDT From: <MANAGER%SMITH.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> (Mary Malmros) Subject: theme story request (counter-earth) There was also a novel dating from about 1981. It didn't involve Earth, but an earthlike planet which was mysteriously inhabited by English- speaking humans living in a real 1950's-gauche kind of dictatorship. The planet was called (ha ha) Vax, and its counter-earth, where everything was peace and love and bunny rabbits, was called Mirrorvax by the astronaut who discovered it. I wouldn't call it literature, but it is probably a good example of the theme. Mary Malmros Smith College MANAGER@SMITH (bitnet) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 86 11:04 CDT From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: Re: sad state of proofreading Well, this isn't proofreading, but I have a copy of deCamp's _Lest Darkness Falls_ that is missing about a chapter's worth which is replaced by about a chapter of a Gor novel. How's that for a great mix-up. Brett (Slocum at hi-multics.arpa) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Oct 86 0939-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #348 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 16 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 348 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Ansible & Diversity & Storing Books & Weapons Policies at Conventions (3 msgs) & Ringworld ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu 9 Oct 86 00:11:01-EDT From: "Art Evans" <Evans@TL-20B.ARPA> Subject: ansible The ansible appears in several of LeGuin's novels. I remember it in "Rocannon's World", "The Word for World is Forest" and "Left Hand of Darkness", and no doubt it appears elsewhere in her work. However, its original appearance (historically, at least, if not in the order she wrote the novels) is in "The Dispossessed", which I regard as one of the finest novels she has written. It is first mentioned there at the top of page 222 of my paperback edition (Avon, 1975). One of Shevek's acquaintenances says to him, "By the way, did you see the latest 'Bulletin of the Space Research Foundation'? They print Reumere's plans for the ansible." "What is the ansible?" "It's what he's calling an instantaneous communication device." There's no further explanation of the word. Later, Shevek completes the physics research necessary to make it possible. Although the Hainish novels form a more or less consistent universe, I have the strong feeling that there are contradictions. In "The Dispossessed" earth is a ruined world, but I have the strong memory that it is OK in another novel. Is anyone's memory better than mine? Art Evans ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 86 17:06:10 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Diversity (was Re: Asimov and Ellison and "Ego") > Should we question the value of the works of Hemmingway or > Dylan Thomas because they were alcoholics? Oscar Wilde because he > was a homosexual? Lewis Carroll because he was a pedophile? The > greatest writers of all time were great because their flawed > personalities allowed them to look at the world in a way we > "normal" people can't imagine. I can't let this pass. What makes you think that being a homosexual means you have a flawed personality? Or that you're not normal, since you seem to be implying that "normal" means "correct" rather than "what the majority does." I'll admit that homosexuals are in the minority. So are Jews. Does that mean we're not normal? To me, one of the big pluses of science fiction is the emphasis on the diversity of the universe. It gives its readers a sense that things are not the same everywhere, that there are different cultures, different ideas, different philosophies, different mores. So I am doubly distressed when a science fiction fan (and I presume the people who read/post to this group are fans) displays insensitivity and even dislike to the diversity around us. The world would be a pretty dull place if we were all clones, wouldn't it? Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 86 03:21 EDT From: Paul Schauble <Schauble@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: Storing SF books Well, there has to be a tie to SF somewhere.... This should reach at least one librarian who should know. Please copy you answer directly to me, as I do not consistantly read the mailing list. The people I live with, in Phoenix, Arizona, are enclosing their garage to build a library. The books have multiplied to fill the other room in the house. The problem is that the garage is neither heated or cooled. In winter, this is no problem. Temperature will range from 40 to 70 F and humidity average about 40-60 percent. In summer, as is, inside temperature will range from 100 to 140 F, humidity from 5 to 20 percent. I don't think this will be very good for the books. We have two reasonable choices: A vent fan will bring the temperature down to 100 to 120 range, humidity still 5 to 20 percent. (We have practical experience living on another planet.) Or, an evaporative cooler will bring the temperature down to 70 to 90 F, but raise the humidity to the 40 to 80% range. Critical question, which will be better for the long term storage of books? Thanks, Paul Schauble at MIT-Multics ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 86 15:20:20 GMT From: grc97!hurst@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Hurst) Subject: Weapons and weapons policies at conventions I am a science fiction fan of long standing and have been attending conventions regularly for several years. I have noticed a trend in the last year or so regarding weapons and weapons policies which bothers me greatly. This has been the increasingly strict restrictions on the carrying and display of weapons. Years ago, there didn't seem to be any problem at all. Weapons policies generally consisted of statements like, "you kill it, you eat it." Since then, the restrictions have been increasing. At worldcon this year, things just got way out of hand. I don't have the con program with me as I write this, but the weapons policy consisted of something like the following: No weapons. The con committee reserves the right to be totally and completely arbitrary in deciding what is and is not a weapon. Let me tell you, the enforcement of this policy reached new heights in ridiculousness. I talked to a person who had spent quite some time putting together a Ghostbusters costume, complete with the backpack linear particle accelerator gun. This was constructed out of old vacuum cleaner parts. He was asked by the con com not to wear it because it resembled a weapon too much. Another friend of mine very compliantly did not wear his Japanese katana and wakazashi with his futuristic samurai costume. Instead, he bought boken from Ironmonger. He was asked by the con com, almost immediately after buying them to take the boken to his room and not wear them. He did so, reluctantly. He then constructed _cardboard_ replicas of the boken. The con com then asked him not to display these either. I understand that Tulio's Isher weapons were also not allowed. I do know that Tulio's sales suffered tremendously at the convention. Anyway, enough of the anecdotes. I would like to pose some questions to the people on the net about weapons and weapons policies. 1) Do you think that carrying and displaying weapons as part of a costume at a convention is an integral part of your enjoyment of the event? 2) Do you think that weapons should not be a part of science fiction conventions at all? 3) Do you think that recent weapons policies have been too restrictive /not restrictive enough? Why or why not? 4) Do you think that the weapons policies should be changed? How should they be changed? 5) What has been your experience with weapons and weapons policies at various conventions? 6) What are your opinions on this issue? How do you think it should be handled? I would appreciate responses being directed to my mailbox: {ihnp4,chinet}!grc97!hurst I know that there have been various fannish incidents. I know that there are people who find it offensive to be confronted with people carrying weapons. I find it offensive that such people think that they should constrain my freedom because of it. Clearly there is a problem, but I think that the con coms at the various conventions have handled it in a way which is expedient for them, but in a way which is acceptable to all. I am trying to foster intelligent discussion on this issue, not flames. Flaming about this only reduces your credibility and accomplishes nothing positive. So please try to be rational in discussing it. Talk to people. Ask them what they think. Then, tell us about it. I am organizing a panel at Windycon on this exact issue. The people on this panel will consist of a member of the Windycon con com, a person from the hotel, preferably head of security, Ironmonger Jim, a pro-weapons fan, an anti-weapons fan, and a moderator. I would like to hear what people have to say. If you're at Windycon, please, attend the panel. Tell us what you think. If you won't be at Windycon, speak up now, so that I have some additional data to go on. I would like to effect a change. In the best of all possible worlds, I would like to see people act in a responsible manner toward themselves and toward those around them. This may not be possible or even realistic. But I think that we can create a workable solution. David Hurst Gould Research Center email: ...{chinet,ihnp4}!grc97!hurst phone: (312) 640-2044 ------------------------------ Date: 14 Oct 86 07:23:24 GMT From: crash!victoro@caip.rutgers.edu (Victor O'Rear) Subject: Re: Weapons and weapons policies at conventions hurst@grc97.UUCP (Dave Hurst) writes: >Anyway, enough of the anecdotes. I would like to pose some >questions to the people on the net about weapons and weapons >policies. >1) Do you think that carrying and displaying weapons as part of a >costume at a convention is an integral part of your enjoyment of >the event? After the vandalism shown at Equicon '82 [?], my suggestion of a 'PeaceCon' fell on approving ears. I do not believe that any of my costumes require an obvious weapon to complete their effect. >2) Do you think that weapons should not be a part of science >fiction conventions at all? I think the time has come for us to rethink our standards for acceptable hall costumes. Peace bonding was originated by costumers to prevent loud mouthed kids from running down the halls with their expensive props. That could also inflict great pain to others. >3) Do you think that recent weapons policies have been too >restrictive / not restrictive enough? Why or why not? Oh good, a simple question. :-) Policies vary slightly and mostly track the size of the convention and the responsiblities of the ConCom to the hotel. >4) Do you think that the weapons policies should be changed? How >should they be changed? The worldcon policy you stated should have allowed weapons on stage during the masqurade but otherwise I see no problem with a con that large asking for a total ban on casual display of realistic weapons. I suggest you ask your local police department has to say 'in the letter of the law' about the visable display of realistic weapons in public. >5) What has been your experience with weapons and weapons policies >at various conventions? My stints as Security Chairman has usually resulted in a policy of "Don't do dumb stuff." Or, it's a privilege to attend this convention and even though you are a guest and a member, don't ruin it for everyone else. >6) What are your opinions on this issue? How do you think it should >be handled? Attended meeting of your local conventions. Learn about the problems with hotel and insurance and the law. Think of solutions. Create props that are not weapons and get the cons to approve them BEFORE the con occurs. >I am organizing a panel at Windycon on this exact issue. The people >on this panel will consist of a member of the Windycon con com, a >person from the hotel, preferably head of security, Ironmonger Jim, >a pro-weapons fan, an anti-weapons fan, and a moderator. Good, This sounds like an excellent idea. Victor O'Rear {ihnp4, akgua, sdcsvax, cbosgd, sdamos, bang}!crash!victoro ARPA: crash!victoro@[ucsd,nosc] BIX: victoro Proline: ...!{pro-sol,pro-mercury}!victoro People-Net: ....!crash!Pnet#01!victoro Fandom: S.T.A.R. - San Diego ------------------------------ Date: 14 Oct 86 13:59:32 GMT From: netxcom!rkolker@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker) Subject: Re: Weapons and weapons policies at conventions I know you asked for email replies, but this is the kind of discussion that should be on the net, so let's start (and let's keep it civil!) I speak on this subject from the point of view of a convention chairman, having chaired 8 between 1975 and 1985, ranging in size from 600-1300 people. I have also entered masquerades, and worn costumes with weapons as part of them. Enough setup. In an ideal world, there would need be no weapons policies at conventions. Those carrying weapons would be responsible. Those not carrying would be understanding. This is not an ideal world. There are two problems, from a con committee standpoint, to weapons carrying (this is stream of conciousness, so a third may come up later). 1)There are irresponsible weapons carriers out there who brandish weapons, treat them carelessly, and thereby, risk hurting themselves and others at the convention. Most conventions run on a shoestring and can't afford a lawsuit. Besides, hurting people is bad (Honest!). It is unfortunate that responsible weapons carriers must be restricted because of a few fools, but that is reality at sf cons these days. Now, some might say, "let us carry weapons until we break some rule" (brandishing a sword, playing blaster battle). If someone gets hurt, after is too late...sorry. 2)We (the fen at a convention) share the hotel with many other people (the Mundanes). These people cannot necessarily tell a blaster from a .45, a rubber knife in a scabbard from the real thing. At one of the conventions I ran, a woman in a "princess Leia" outfit complete with blaster went to McDonalds. Ten minutes later, the police showed up. One of the customers had reported "a woman in a white dress with a gun." Con committees don't need these kind of hassles. Having said this, there ARE right and wrong ways to enforce weapons rules. The right way is to inform the membership in advance, on flyers and progress reports, of your policy. Then, at the convention, be firm and polite. 99 and 44/100 percent of people will respond to politeness. The "a weapon is what the committee says is a weapon" rule happened to prevent arguments such as the one you saw (I was there too) at Worldcon. As a guest of the hotel and the con committee you must obey their rules. The alternative is not attending. In addition, in Worldcon's case, there is the alternative of taking up weapons policy at the business meeting. There are assholes on both sides (pro and anti weapons). There are many flavors of weapons policy (I like the "keep it in the scabbard/holster" with peace bonding rule). On either side, keep the discussion civil, and if necessary, vote with your feet. I hope this gets the discussion off to a fruitful start. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Dr. Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 86 00:05:51 GMT From: rubin@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Rubin) Subject: Re: R/R-WORLD: DATA A general question on ringworlds: what keeps 'em from collapsing across the WIDTH of the ring, like a stepped-on tuna fish can? There is a lot of mass around the edges, and each rim attracts the other in an attempt to become an accretion disk. Solar gravity (i.e. tidal force) also pulls slightly toward the midline. Scrith may be unreasonably strong (in tension) but not infinitely strong against bending; and it's already got lots of bumps and corrugations that would be perfect places for buckling to start. Come to think of it, atmosphere and surface water would also pile up around the midline. One could make a ringworld squash-proof by bending the edges outward slightly for a ") (" cross-section; that way the surface would be normal to centrifugal force plus ring self-attraction and solar tides, not just centrifugal force. To my recollection, Niven's isn't; you can see from one rim clear across to the other. The necessary curvature depends on the density and mean thickness of scrith, and the solar gravity, and I don't want to even contemplate calculating it; but the sideways force is probably at least 1/1000 of a gee at the edges, so you'd need an outward slope of 1/1000 to compensate, making a pronounced "hump" in the middle. Please ignore this whole posting if Niven's ringworld is already bent outward at the edges. Mike Rubin {arpanet}!topaz!timeplex!mrubin ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 16 Oct 86 1010-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #349 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Oct 86 1010-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #349 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 16 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 349 Today's Topics: Books - Zelazny (14 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Oct 86 07:57:00 GMT From: silber@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: History of the Universe up to _Bloo >The Amberites move through shadow easily only in the portion of the >Universe under the effect of the Pattern. As they get closer and >closer to Chaos, they find it more and more difficult to "shift >Shadow", because the more Chaotic shadows move and shift by >themselves, screwing up the mental-physical arithmetic processes >employed. They also find it difficult to move through shadow in the physical vicinity of Amber, presumably due to the presence of the pattern. Corwin, one of the better walkers, is one of the few who seems able to shift shadow even slightly on the near side of the mountain. As one goes further into shadow and further from Amber physically, it gets easier until approaching Chaos. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Oct 86 07:02:42 GMT From: altunv!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Silva) Subject: Re: Trumping to Dworkin's apartment From: Kupfer.osbunorth@Xerox.COM > I think Dworkin could've walked back if he wanted to. But it was > probably easier (faster, less tiring) to trump back. Remember the > scene with Corwin and Brand (in Courts of Chaos, I think), where > Corwin rides around in a circle so that he can escape through > Shadow? I think you are overlooking something, you cannot shift shadow WHILE YOU ARE IN AMBER. The only way to leave Amber, is to a> ride far enough away for the effects of Amber to be less significant (Even still it is mention several times that shifting shadows is difficult while near Amber). b> Trump to somebody who is away from Amber. c> walk the pattern, and from the center area of the pattern, teleport to wherever you want. I see this as the reason Corwin could not leave his cell. He had not studied from Dworkin the techniques in making Trumps (as Brand had), so it wasn't until he was able to con Dworkin into drawing the picture of the Lighthouse of Cabra that Corwin was able to escape. Also, I think the fact that Brand and Fiona had studied under Dworkin has more to do with thier extra abilites. They simply know more about the principle of the Trumps than anybody else. Brad Silva ...!ptfsa!gilbbs!altunv!brad ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 1986 13:17 EDT (Sun) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> To: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: nitpicking Amber question The first occurrence of Ganelon that I've ever seen was the traitor in Song of Roland... And yes, Dara does walk the Pattern. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 1986 13:22 EDT (Sun) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> To: fai!ronc@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Shape-shifting (Trumps of Doom spoiler) I suspect that one reason that Dara never walked the Logrus is that Zelanzy hadn't thought of it then...:) Seriously, if the Lords of Chaos didn't know what would happen to someone who walked both, they would probably have had Dara wait and only walk the Pattern to minimize the chances of something going wrong. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Oct 86 05:32:28 GMT From: iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Iverson) Subject: Re: Amber - Shape-shifting ability Salgado.WBST@Xerox.COM writes: numerous interesting examples of basic genetics that presuppose that all Chaosians can shift and all Amberites cannot. To Mr. Salgado, I say read BLOOD OF AMBER. The definitive answer to shape-shifiting is within that book and it is not even remotely genetic. Speculations are fine as long as facts don't refute them. And stop bringing up some non-existant Law. Law is never capitalized in any of the 7 Amber novels. There is only Amber and Chaos (and Corwin :-), and Amber is descended from the sons Chaos and the pattern within the Jewel. Tim Iverson iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU ...!ucbvax!cory!iverson ------------------------------ Date: 13 Oct 86 11:40:40 PDT (Monday) From: cate3.pa@Xerox.COM Subject: Amber - A question In the very first book Corwin doesn't know who he is, starts talking to a sister, when a brother asks for help. Corwin gives it. The brother is being chased by people who walk shadows, but aren't amberites. Seems to me they may have even had six fingers or some such. Was it ever explained just where these people came from? Henry III cate3.pa@xerox.com ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 23:14:55 GMT From: loral!dml@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis) Subject: Re: Amber -- WITH MAJOR SPOILERS Here follow replies to Chip Hitchcock and Frank Adams. I wrote: >The link holds through at least eight generations of lineal descent >(Dara was Benedict's great-great- granddaughter) but it's not clear >if it holds for other relationships. cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) writes: >seem to recall that Dara merely posed as Benedict's daughter to get >Corwin into trouble (and herself into a different kind of >trouble...). The explanation for all of this is a little strange ... Benedict ended his war with the hellmaids in an overnight `conference' with their leader Lintra, from which he returned minus an arm. Corwin's arrival is perhaps a week after that, while Benedict is still cleaning up the aftermath of the war. The next day, Corwin meets Dara, later revealed as Benedict's great-great-granddaughter by Lintra (I may have goofed by one `great-' one way or the other), posing as Benedict's daughter, in his absence and without his knowlege. I don't remember who spilled the beans about Dara (Oberon?), but he/she also mentioned that Dara was "the first to bear all the stigma of humanity". This branch of the family was raised in a Shadow with a REAL high time-rate, very close to Chaos. I presume Merlin spent a lot of time there too. >Also, does Dara actually walk the Pattern (gaining general >shadow-walking ability), or merely pass through Shadow on the Black >Road? Yes, she practically tramples Corwin as she rides up Kolvir to get to the "main" Pattern in the Amber dungeons. By the time Corwin and Random get there, she is halfway through it, and under the strain she loses control of her human form. Corwin is dismayed by some of the forms she then assumes. When she reaches the center of the Pattern, she announces, "Amber will be destroyed!" and Pattern-transports away. (me again) >In some manner [Dworkin] encountered the Unicorn and the Jewel of >Judgement ... In some wise he learned the Jewel's power, and began >to use it to impose the Pattern within it on the stuff of Chaos. >... Then Dworkin fathered Oberon ... franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >I don't think the chronology is quite right here. I believe that >Dworkin fathered Oberon *before* drawing the pattern. The evidence >is not conclusive, but I think Oberon grew up in the Courts of >Chaos. This seems unlikely if Amber already existed at that point. You may be right ... I recall some mention of Oberon's childhood in the Courts of Chaos. On the other hand, Dworkin strikes me as one who would put power ahead of anything else -- like a typical Lord of Chaos. Only Dworkin and the Unicorn know, and neither one is telling. >... when did Merlin grow up? Dara is impregnated by Corwin in >_The_Guns_of_Avalon_, i.e., after Corwin's escape from the >dungeons. From that point, the action is more or less continuous >until the Patternfall battle, where Corwin and Merlin meet. It is >stated that Merlin grew up at the Courts of Chaos. Yet it seems >that time flows slower at the Courts than at Amber: Corwin spends a >few hours there, yet is gone from Amber for a week. Am I missing >something? First, that Corwin was not AT the Courts of Chaos, but on the brink of the abyss that separates the end of Shadow from the Courts proper. By the way, that is where he first meets Merlin, though he does not at the time know who Merlin is. Time in the shadow Earth (our own universe, of all places) runs about 2-1/2X Amber Standard Time. Hugi the crow says he's been waiting for Corwin since the beginning of time (since Dworkin inscribed his Pattern?). Corwin says something to the effect of, 'I hope you haven't been bored', and Hugi replies: "Time is what you make of it, here. It has not been long." I would say that a Lord of Chaos, at the Courts, would have all the time he/she/it wanted. See also the paragraph about Dara, above. Dave Lewis Loral Instrumentation San Diego loral!dml ------------------------------ Date: 13 Oct 86 23:32:55 GMT From: meccsd!ahby@caip.rutgers.edu (Shane P. McCarron) Subject: Re: Trumping to Dworkin's apartment brad@altunv.UUCP (Brad Silva) writes: >I think you are overlooking something, you cannot shift shadow >WHILE YOU ARE IN AMBER. I got the impression that if you were good enough (read powerful enough) you could manipulate shadow from within Amber. I just assumed that Dworkin could do it... Shane P. McCarron MECC Technical Services UUCP ihnp4!meccts!ahby ATT (612) 481-3589 ------------------------------ Date: 13 Oct 86 23:06:33 GMT From: weitek!robert@caip.rutgers.edu (Robert Plamondon) Subject: Re: Amber - A question From: cate3.pa@Xerox.COM > In the very first book Corwin doesn't know who he is, starts >talking to a sister, when a brother asks for help. Corwin gives >it. The brother is being chased by people who walk shadows, but >aren't amberites. Seems to me they may have even had six fingers >or some such. > Was it ever explained just where these people came from? Not exactly. Bleys and Fiona had a falling out with Brand, and imprisoned him with a number of these guys as guards. Later, Caine fakes his own murder using another of these guys. It seems clear to me that whoever these people are, their existence isn't much of a mystery to the Amberites, though Corwin, Random, and Flora don't seem to know where they come from. Since monsters often have the ability to wander in out of Shadow, and sorcerors from someplace other than the Courts of Chaos or Amber seem to have some abilities, it doesn't seem entirely unreasonable that these people can use Shadow to some extent. Note also that it's easier to follow someone through Shadow than it is to find your own way, so the people pursuing Random don't necessarily have the same level of skill that he did. Robert Plamondon UUCP: {pyramid,turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert ------------------------------ Date: 13 Oct 86 21:31:39 GMT From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: Amber From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> > Well, if that's the case, you'd have to walk through the >Shadows cast by Corwin's Pattern to get there, and I wonder if >that's possible if you haven't walked his Pattern first. Or Trump in. Oh rats, I don't have the books with me, but I think Merlin made it a point to memorize the scenery so he could create a trump later. I think he *could* go back if he wanted to, but as someone else pointed out, once you start walking a pattern you can't stop without getting killed. Besides that, I think Merlin told Bill at some point that Suhey thought walking the Pattern after walking the Logrus would kill him, and it "dammed near did". Perhaps he felt that his luck may run out if he tried to walk yet another pattern? I think it's going to take some pretty high motivation to get Merlin to walk his father's pattern. We'll have to wait and see how Zelazny does it... Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: 14 Oct 86 05:26:13 GMT From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: Amber - Shape-shifting ability (Spoiler for Blood of Subject: Amber) iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Tim Iverson) writes: >Salgado.WBST@Xerox.COM writes: numerous interesting examples of >basic genetics that presuppose that all Chaosians can shift and all >Amberites cannot. To Mr. Salgado, I say read BLOOD OF AMBER. The >definitive answer to shape-shifiting is within that book and it is >not even remotely genetic. Speculations are fine as long as facts >don't refute them. Well, I finished Blood quite recently and I can't see what definitive answer you are referring to. (To which you are referring? Whatever.) Merlin says something about being a Chaos Lord just before he shape-shifts the first time. Someone implied that shape shifting was a product of walking the Logrus, (which appears to be borne out by Merlin's use of the Logrus to accomplish the shift) but Dara could do it before she walked the Pattern, and Merlin was, according to Suhey (who should know) the first to walk both the Pattern and the Logrus. (In _Trumps_of_Doom_.) Implication: Dara had not walked the Logrus at the time she exhibited shape-shifting powers. I don't think it's clear from _Blood_ what exactly makes a Chaos Lord: This might be the same type of title as being a "Prince of Amber", which implies being a member of a certain family tree. As someone else pointed out, Oberon was born in Amber, was unlikely to ever have been to the Courts, (let alone near the Logrus) yet could shape-shift. How? Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: 14 Oct 86 10:37:25 PDT (Tuesday) From: cate3.pa@Xerox.COM Subject: Amber - the six-fingered dudes To: unisoft!jsc@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU From James Carrington: >you write: >From: cate3.pa@Xerox.COM >The brother is being chased by people who walk shadows, but aren't >amberites. Seems to me they may have even had six fingers or some >such. > Was it ever explained just where these people came from? > >Yes -- In either the "Hand of Oberon" or "Courts of Chaos" the >brother being chased (Random) explains that he tried to rescue >Brand from the tower where he was imprisoned. He failed, and the >six-fingered dudes followed him all the way to shaodow-earth, where >he killed them with the aid of Corwin et al. My memory is the six-fingered dudes had some ability to walk shadows. Is that true? Wasn't Random able to shake them for awhile? So that they weren't getting through shadow by staying very close to Random? The real question I ought to have asked is what happened to the shadow where the six-fingered guys came from. If there are lots of these people, they could collectivly be more powerful than the Amberites. Just think of it, there might be a million people who can walk shadow. And unless all the rest of them are really nice people and most of the time just don't want to hurt anyone, Amber and Chaos could be in real danger. Do you think Zelany will worry about these people again? Two more questions. Does Amber live in a solar system which is in a galaxy? Has there been mention of any shadows which go back in time? Henry III cate3.pa@xerox.com ------------------------------ From: weitek!robert@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Amber Date: 14 Oct 86 14:44:00 GMT ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes: >Oh rats, I don't have the books with me, but I think Merlin made it >a point to memorize the scenery so he could create a trump later. "I studied the place once more, for details as well as for feeling, because I wanted to be able to construct a Trump for it" Blood of Amber, p. 164 Robert Plamondon UUCP: {pyramid,turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert ------------------------------ Date: 13 Oct 86 15:53:00 GMT From: jpd249@uiucuxf.CSO.UIUC.EDU Subject: new amber book? new amber book??? the last on I read was Trumps of Doom, is there another?? please reply.. a newcomer.. Jeff Deitch@UICU ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Oct 86 0814-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #350 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 20 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 350 Today's Topics: Television - Battlestar Galactica (3 msgs) & Blake's 7 & Star Trek (7 msgs) & UFO ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Oct 86 14:53:49 GMT From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone) Subject: Re: Battlestar Galactica This is an example of the novel being written from an early script. The Cylons in the books are definitely organic. The Cylons in the movies are just as certainly machines. You see wires, and in one episode they take apart two cylons to study. By the way, does anyone know the publishing schedule on the novels. The last BG novel I got was Die Chamilion about 6 months ago. Phil Paone ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 86 00:11:11 GMT From: 6090617@PUCC.BITNET (Robert Wald) Subject: Re: Battlestar Galactica >From: ST701135%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU >Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression I got >from the first book in the novelization was that the cylons were an >*organic* race, and not machines at all! THAT IS WHAT THE novelization said, but the tv show differs. The novel claimed that there was some organic form inside the armor, augmented by robot abilities and additional electronic brains. (in monotone) 'Why is it that we hard-ly ev-er get a hit on a co-lo-ni-al vi-per?' `How can we be ex-pec-ted to hit the broad side of a barn with on-ly one little red eye boun-cing back and forth like a ping pong ball?' -Cattlecar Galactica ('What planet are we going to crash on THis week?') Rob Wald (Princeton University Information Services) 6090617@PUCC.BITNET Applelink: A0181 UUCP: ...allegra!psuvax1!PUCC.BITNET!6090617 ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 86 23:19:33 GMT From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) Subject: Re: Battlestar Galactica >>... the cylons were an *organic* race, >>and not machines at all! >> > THAT IS WHAT THE novelization said, but the tv show differs. The > novel claimed that there was some organic form inside the armor, > augmented by robot abilities and additional electronic brains. NO!!!!!!!!! I definitely remember that the Cylons used to be a race of organic life forms, and built the 'warriors' for their own use. The original race died out due to something unknown a long while back, but the robots continued on. The Cylon leader was supposed to be a representation of the original form the organic Cylons had, as a sort of tribute to their former 'masters.' As for the Colonial war, it had raged on for eons (or thousands of yahren) and the original cause of the war was forgotten. The Cylons left the machines behind to carry on the war, and I think their primary goal was total victory. ------------------------------ Date: 14 October 1986 08:33:53 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson) Subject: Blake's 7--the name From: hrcca!jean@caip.rutgers.edu (Jean Airey) >"Blake's 7" was never a show that relied on *any* single person. > ... When you've got a hit show called something, you don't >change the name. It might confuse the viewers :-) Yeah, I realize that; I meant that they shouldn't have named the show after one character (especially a character who can't regenerate :-) in the first place. Heck, I don't know; they could've called it something like "Liberators" or "Freedom in the Galaxy" or somesuch name. (But they didn't, I know, so cool the flames, eh?) Carlo Samson U09862%uicvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 13 Oct 86 21:38:17 GMT From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: Star Trek: No Century of Progress friedman@uiucdcs.cs.uiuc.edu writes: >On the other hand, take note of Kirk's arrival in San Francisco at >the beginning of ST-TMP. Doesn't exactly look like a BART station >to me. (But maybe that's what BART will become in 200 years or >so.) :-) Yeah, it occurred to me that with a working transporter, life on Earth must resemble something out of a Niven story... Until I realized that transporters are probably hideously expensive, complex, and dangerous in the ST universe. (Remember all the transporter related accidents in the series, and the two people killed in the first movie.) Something as unreliable as the transporter would probably not be used commercially, hence other modes of transportation, like the super-bart, would be more likely. Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: 14 Oct 86 13:17:05 GMT From: netxcom!rkolker@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker) Subject: Re: STAR TREK: The Next Generation dragheb@isis.UUCP (Darius "OPRDRT" Ragheb) writes: >gmp@rayssd.UUCP (Gregory M. Paris) writes: >>I'm sure that all readers of this group will want to see the >>program be as good as possible, and I think the best way to ensure >>that is by having good writers. What would really be great is if >>episodes were written by recent Hugo and Nebula award winning >>authors. will be* if we all just sit around on our duffs. > >I would agree to do as you ask if they only named it something else. >The words star and trek together (i.e. Star Trek) mean one thing: >The Enterprise >Capt. Kirk >etc. > >Working together to make a team (that is Star Trek). NO! NO! NO! I have been fighting this battle at Star Trek Conventions and in fandom for fifteen (15) YEARS! STAR TREK is an idea...a universe..a concept. It is not a set of actors or their characters! I love the crew of the Enterprise (and the ship) as much as any of you, I'm glad the old gang is making movies (although the explanations for these folks getting together are getting a bit thin). But Shatner and Nimoy and Kelley are not Star Trek. Kirk and Spock and McCoy are not Star Trek. Not even the Enterprise is Star Trek. Star Trek is a concept created by Gene Roddenberry where a group of people in a ship go out exploring space, far enough from authority to require idependent action, with the best of intentions, and the weakness of character that sometimes they fail to act on those intentions properly, and the strength of character to learn from their mistakes. Read C.S. Forester's Horatio Hornblower series for the roots of Star Trek. Roddenberry did. Now, on another point. Do not limit the good writers for something like Star Trek to SF writers. Some SF writers cannot write in the screenplay format (Isaac Asimov has admitted it many times at conventions). Many great Star Trek episodes were written by people who had no background in SF (Gene Coon, D.C. Fontana). Certainly SF writers can write good Trek, but so can other people, so long as they are good writers. Good writing needs no label, SF or otherwise. The one thing that will help keep the writing at a high level is a good Story Editor. The SE edits, watches consistancy, and even rewrites to make sure the writing is true to the series and the concept. For example, Harlan Ellison's original "City on the Edge..." was a great story, but not great Star Trek. The final version, after rewrite was both. Enough flaming for now. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Dr. Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 86 13:39:43 edt From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Star Trek and Social Change >Why do you say there is virtually no social change between our >century and that of Star Trek? A lot of social attitudes are >postulated to have improved by the time of ST: racial and gender >equality, for example....Even more important, I think, is the >apparent lack of warfare between nations of Earth. You're making my point for me. ST society is our society without the features that we, today, deplore--a sanitized 1980, a society we'd be pleased to live in. By contrast, anyone from a past century who was brought to our society would be very distressed, but not by our social injustice or our wars. Depending on their origin they would deplore our lack of [whichever] virtues, our Godlessness, our indifference to social distinctions. ST society is one with the same ideals as ours. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 86 13:31:30 PDT From: ROBINSON%SAT@ames-io.ARPA To: sf-lovers@red.rutgers.edu >From: Garrett Fitzgerald >Stardates are very screwed up. If I remember correctly, the >episodes were about 1800-3500 (three years), STTMP was the middle >7000s, but TWOK was only 8000... That brings to mind a question that I have always had, How do the stardates work. >I have a new idea on Genesis' instability. The Genesis torpedo >destroyed the controller with the Reliant. Might this be why it was >unstable? In the planned experiment, the controller would have been >safely off the planet. I doubt it. Saavik and David discussed this. David stated that he had used (I forget the name) an UNstable compound as a catalyst for the reaction. >... After the Genesis wave (neat name) passes the camera, it swoops >down and goes over several mountain ranges. Except the last one. >They wanted to pass over all of them, but the "camera" kept running >into the last mountain. So, they drew a gorge for the camera to go >through. Neat trick, eh? Well, that's all for now. Yes! and if you watch it very closely you will see as the camera is about to slam into the mountain it disappears. Randy Robinson ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 86 16:27:50 GMT From: inuxd!jody@caip.rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross) Subject: Re: STAR TREK: The Next Generation gmp@rayssd.UUCP (Gregory M. Paris) writes: > I would agree to do as you ask if they only named it something else. > The words star and trek together (i.e. Star Trek) mean one thing: > The Enterprise > Capt. Kirk > Mr. Spock > Scotty > Bones > Chekov > Uhura > Sulu > etc. > > Working together to make a team (that is Star Trek). I guess I am a Klingon spy (funny my tribble is not squealing, maybe I'm Romulan). Star Trek means far more to me then the above mentioned team. Don't get me wrong, Kirk and company made a great team, but it was the ideals and even some adventure that was Star Trek for me. A new team might put new blood into it, who knows. Then again it could be like that (sorta) 2nd season of that "Battlestar" show. I dislike the name chosen, but only 'cause it sounds too sequally (is that a word?). The fact that it says it's Star Trek only leads me to hope that they will "Go where no Man has gone before". I hope they live up to the tradition. jody ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 86 16:29:35 GMT From: crash!victoro@caip.rutgers.edu (Victor O'Rear) Subject: Re: STAR TREK: The Next Generation If you're looking for an address to express your thoughts to Paramont: Try: Gene Roddenberry's Office 5555 Melrose Los Angeles, CA 90038 Victor O'Rear {ihnp4, akgua, sdcsvax, cbosgd, sdamos, bang}!crash!victoro ARPA: crash!victoro@[ucsd,nosc] BIX: victoro Proline: ...!{pro-sol,pro-mercury}!victoro People-Net: ....!crash!Pnet#01!victoro Fandom: S.T.A.R. - San Diego ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 86 20:58:00 GMT From: bnrmtv!zarifes@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes) Subject: Re: Romulan Ale and Star Trek dates > Also, two details in the movie. When the Klingons show up on the > screen, Saavik says something unintelligible, the "Mr. Sulu, get > us out of here!" Did anybody manage to intellige that? Yes. She sees 3 Klingon cruisers in battle formation coming at them and she says (rather quietly), "Way over our heads." immediately followed with "Mr. Sulu get us out of here!" Ken Zarifes {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 86 20:00:41 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: UFO >I'm sure "Paul" had a last name, but I am equally sure it was used >only once or twice. Colonel Paul Foster was mentioned as such many times. He rapidly became moonbase commander, and was one of the most trusted men in the service. He was originally a pilot who was accidentally involved in a UFO incident along with a partner who was killed. His ferocious zeal in finding out what happened, despite all SHADO's attempts to disuade him (highly illegal attempts, too) led them to bring him into the organisation, where he served with distinction and became one of Straker's closest friends. Many of the episodes concerned him; one particularly good one involved only him and an alien on the Moon, helping each other survive until rescued. >Ed Straker was the only one who was more than a first name. Oh? Col. Ed Straker a thorough wet blanket. The less said, the better. Col. Alec Freeman 2nd in command; a decent sort, if unexciting. Col. Paul Foster moonbase commander, close friend of Alec and Ed. Col. Virginia Lake the sourest woman I've ever seen. Thought every word from a man was part of a "line". Can't remember her function in SHADO. Capt. Peter Carlin one of the pilots of Sky One. Lost his sister in a UFO incident. Capt. (first name?) Waterman captain of Skydiver. >There was an episode concerning the death of his son and the >ensuing breakup of his marriage, for example. His marriage had already broken up -- SHADO had become his mistress. She was remarried, to rather a colourless character, when the boy was hit by a car, having chased after Ed rather than watched the traffic. Strong episode, but the same grey feeling in the end that they all had. I wish all this had been only one episode. However, it got dragged out over many of them. >Pretty good for an Anderson show, though - at there WAS a >non-cardboard character! He was such a drip I don't know how much good being non-cardboard did; but on the whole, I agree. >Their subs consisted of a small fighter plane grafted onto the >front end of a submersible tender . . . The subs could also >torpedo ufos that got underwater I always tried to overlook that fact that Skydiver alone was meant to cover every ocean on Earth. And as you say, for aerial assaults it had only Sky One. >Their space defenses were based on the moon; they consisted of >interceptor spaceships that were a propulsion system, a cockpit, >and a missle. That's it; one missle. The missle was about 2/3 the >length of the rest of the interceptor. Dumb design; they'd send 'em >after ufos in threes, so if all three missed, the ufo got through. Very bad, as you say. Yet in the same episode you mention above, where Skydiver found a full base on the ocean floor, a whole fleet of UFO's came around the moon, and the 3 interceptors dealt with most of them, allowing Sky One to have a little fun with the remainder. How did the interceptors reload? Haven't a clue. >No orbital defenses; just an orbiting computer/tracking system >called SID, Space-borne Intruder Detector (I think); this beast was >solid computer and sensors. "Space Intruder Detector", meaning detector of intruders in space. >The moon base was pretty cool; all the women wore their hair >identically (bowl- type hairstyle), wore tight-fitting silver mylar >outfits. One or two of them were pretty tough people; in one... Their hair was *purple* on duty, but somehow normal coloured on leave. Those uniforms were intended for the male eye, not for efficient service. But there is no doubt that a number of the women were central, very important, personnel. >One of Gerry and Sylvia's best efforts, in my opinion; superior to >Space:1999, Certainly true in my experience; but improving on Space:1999 was not terribly hard. The Andersons often seem to me to be trying to make up with enthusiasm what they lack in expertise. >in that the interceptors appeared to be powerful enough >to make swooping turns in space. What has power got to do with this? What they appeared to use were steering fins (in space of course); what they needed were steering rockets. These at least the Eagles had. Compared to many of its contemporaries, UFO was not too bad a show. Nevertheless, it still had too many failings, and was overall too grey in spirit, for me to claim enjoying it. I wouldn't care to see it again. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Oct 86 0833-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #351 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 20 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 351 Today's Topics: Books - Burroughs & Clancy & Hawke & Myers (2 msgs) & Wolfe & Ace Doubles (3 msgs) & Story Request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Oct 86 00:26:15 GMT From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas Cox) Subject: ERB >> Does anybody out there like Edgar Rice Burroughs books? I've >> read the moon, Mars, Venus, and Pellucidar series, but none of >> the Tarzan books. Strangely, I followed the same pattern. I read ERB's Mars, Venus, and Center-of-the-Earth books, but never even *tried* the Tarzan books, despite all the TV and movie versions thereof. I still am not sure why -- has anyone else read ERB in this fashion? >I for one grew up on the Mars series. ERB's descriptions of exotic >people, fantastic scenery and heroic efforts hooked me on SF. >Although I quickly 'outgrew' (not trying to sound to snobbish here) >his stories and moved on to grander ideas, I still reread the first >three books (The Princess of Mars, The Gods of Mars, The Warlord of >Mars) every couple of years. Kinda like watching a M*A*S*H rerun, >it just feels good! Just three weeks ago I finished re-reading a number of the Mars books after a five-or-ten-year haitus. They remain very good pulp fiction. But tell me: does ERB's Mars series seem to you more SF than Fantasy? It almost seems to me that SF is about human Earthlings in the future [or whenever] doing funky new-technology stuff, and Fantasy is about non-humans in any time period doing any kind of funky stuff. Can someone offer me a better division between F and SF? It's pretty clear I need one... Thomas Cox ...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn ------------------------------ Date: Mon 13 Oct 86 23:54:28-CDT From: CS.VANSICKLE@R20.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: Re: "Science fiction" To: KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU > [Tom Clancy] was clearly using the term in a new and unfortunate > sense. Some people say "that's science fiction" when they mean > "that's impossible". . . . he has fallen for the Harper's > propaganda that all science fiction is bad, he feels that he has > to call his works something else. I agree that it is unfortunate that some authors are afraid to let their work be labeled science fiction, and that some people consider the term to be a pejorative. It may be that Clancy was using the term "science fiction" as you suggest, but it was also clear in the interview that all the military technology described in Red Storm exists today - that the novel does not extrapolate the technology at all and the story does not assume any breakthroughs or new developments. This is in contrast to the typical science fiction story, which starts by assuming some new development or discovery and then examines the implications. Since the book was originally reviewed on this board, I thought it interesting to find out that the technology described is current. Larry Van Sickle cs.vansickle@r20.utexas.edu U of Texas at Austin ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 86 00:53:03 GMT From: c160-dq@zooey.Berkeley.EDU (Kathy Li) Subject: Khyber Connection For anyone who wants a good popcorn time travel series, Simon Hawke's TIME WARS have been recommended. Each book is pretty much the old plot of "stick our fearless time commandos back in historical events to help "fix" them". The series is well written, with lots of adventure, familiar characters, and panache. I like it. The Sixth Book, "The Khyber Connection" has just come out. If you've been following the series, and noticing how each successive book has shown how the timeline is getting more and more messed up, be prepared. This time it's IMMENSELY messed up. I really don't see how our guys are gonna make it out of this one. Major surprise as well. Other than that, if I say too much about it, I'll spoil it. I like it, and that's all. And yes, the line "You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din." does appear, as does Winston Churchill. Kathy Li ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 86 09:59:45 EDT From: BARBER%PORTLAND.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Wayne Barber) Subject: John Myers Myers Al Dunn writes: >I read Silverlock around '79 and have seen a sequel on the shelf at >our local bookstore for a couple of years now. So today I finally >got it. _The Moon's Fire-Eating Daughter_ is the title. Anyone >read it yet? I'm surprised that I haven't heard anything about it >on the net. I read this book when it first came out and was also disappointed. It is a sequel to _Silverlock_ in that _Silverlock_ pays homage to the great stories from literature and _The Moon's Fire Eating Daughter_ pays homage to the writers of literature. The story in MEFD definitely plays second fiddle to the characters. >There's also a booklist: By John Myers Myers: > The Harp and the Blade His first book, and a very good one. There was a Silverblaze edition a few years ago. > Out on Any Limb Elizabethan England murder mystery/swashbuckler. The first time I read it I thought it was longer than it should have been. The second time I read it, it was great. Probably out of print. > The Wild Yazoo Mississippi frontier novel. Another good action story with a main character that definitely grows character. Also out of print. (The title refers to a river.) > Silverlock Myer's classic fantasy. If you've read this, you've pretty much met the main character in all his fiction. But the other books are still worth finding. Definitely in print and possibly the best book Baen ever published. (But quite a few typos.) > Dead Warrior The only real Western in the bunch. The best written of all the books, but Myers' main interest is the Old West. This one is probably out of print, too. > The Moon's Fire-eating Daughter My least favorite Myers book. Nifty use of language but it just doesn't pull together like his other books. > Anybody read any of the above? Any recommendations:? > Are there any other Silverlock sequels? The ones I have mentioned are the only ones I know to be fiction. Myers also wrote a lot of non-fiction. I recommend all the books mentioned above but the last. MEFD has some great language and some nice passages, but falls flat overall. (Just an opinion, folks). None of the others bear any relation to the _Silverlock_ universe, but they are all good reading. Wayne Barber ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 86 16:30:03 EDT From: BARBER%PORTLAND.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Wayne Barber) Subject: John Myers Myers stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg) writes: >From the booklist (not included here) I get the impression that >most of Myers' output is in the Western genre. The only other work >of his that I have read is The Harp and the Blade. It is (believe >it or not) a story of CONAN returning to his old Celtic stomping >grounds. Definitely not in the expected Conan mythos. It is also >an acceptably good story (believe it or not) and I recommend it. I *don't* believe it! Just because the character has the same name doesn't make it the same character. Howard's Conan HAS no Celtic stomping grounds. He was a Cimmerian and lived in a time that was supposedly before recorded history. _The Harp and the Blade_ takes place around 1000 a.d. For those who have never read THaTB, it's actually about an Irish bard named Finnian who gets caught up in a battle between two factions in the north of France. Each person is trying to grab a piece of land to call home and rule over. One is a nice guy named Conan whose family lived there for years. The other is a nasty guy (I don't remember his name) who is killing people who are siding with Conan. Eventually, of course, they duke it out. Let me stress that the main character here is Finnian, not Conan. The whole story is told from Finnian's point of view and there is no indication at all of any similarity between this Conan and Howard's Conan. Wayne Barber ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Oct 86 00:31:07 edt From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (laurence) Subject: Wolfe I just finished "Soldier of the Mist" purchased from the SF Book Shop. While there, I received the most amazing information from Baird Searles: This book, which actually has a November release date, is *ALREADY* out of print. I don't know where he got these copies, but apparently there will be no more. Truly bizarre. The book is by Tor, by way of St. Martin's Press. Tor has not heretofore been on my list of idiot publishers..... I mean really, Wolfe's name alone is now enough to guarantee ten or twenty thousand hard-covers at least. He was reviewed in the Times, for Gaea's sake.... Anyhow, the book is set during the cataclysmic events of about 479 BC, Greece, and makes me wish I remembered more about the period. I *think* all his details are right, about the defeat of the Persians, etc., but it would be nice to know. The book is much like TBOTNS and Silverlock in that one is greatly benefited by a classical education, which I unfortunately only have a glimmer of ("read and liked Homer"). Among other things, I would like to know who the narrator is! Someone from the classics dept., PLEASE fill me in -- I have the feeling it's an historical figure. However, I at least could guess his country of origin before his name was revealed.... *** NOT A SPOILER *** The narrator is a soldier who has fought in this major land battle (Marathon? Whichever one was at the time of Thermopylae, I think) on the side of the Persians against the Athenians and Spartans. He has received a head wound which has screwed up his short term memory to the point that he forgets everything that has occurred longer than a day in the past. He has also lost long term memory like his name, country of origin, etc. However, he is now attuned with the supernatural and demiurgic, and can freely talk to gods, spirits, etc., and even make these apparent to others. Fortunately, he is literate, so he carries around a scroll on which he has recorded his adventures, (ie, the text of the novel). I found this work a far more serious literary effort than FREE LIVE FREE, and while not containing so many fantastic elements as TBOTNS, I can really strongly recommend it over all the rest of this years drivel. Don't be turned off by the fact of its being an historical fantasy, by the way; as I said I don't have any real background or unusual interest in this period, yet I still found it fascinating. There is a certain appeal to any work by an author who is really knowledgeable about his work's milieu, be it historical, as in this case, or fantastic, as in The Lord of the Rings, for instance. It is implied both in the text and on the flyleaf that this book is part of a series, but it ends in a more-or-less reasonable way, like the way The Shadow of the Torturer ended on a major resolution without revealing everything that would come in the next three books. However, what with the weird behavior on the part of the publisher, who knows if the remainder of this series will ever see light of day. Laurence Raphael Brothers Organization: Rutgers - The State University of New Jersey Uucp-Address: topaz!brothers Internet-Address: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu Bell-Address: {+1 201 932 2706 | +1 201 878 1790} Postal-Address: BPO 29874 CN 1119 Piscataway, NJ 08854 USA ------------------------------ Date: 13 Oct 86 12:52:25 PDT (Monday) Subject: 'Ace' books From: Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM I was sorting through a box or three of old SF books I picked up at a fayre and found 6 strange double sided "Two in One" books published by Ace. They are in a back-to-back format, ie. one is logical upsidedown to the other, and they both work inwards (!). I recognise about 8 of the titles from various anthologies and novella compilations. Was this the origin of the novella, or just one publishers format? Hugh ARPA: Hippo.SBDERX@Xerox.COM ------------------------------ Date: 14 Oct 86 23:26:57 GMT From: 6080626@PUCC.BITNET (Adam Barr) Subject: Re: 'Ace' books This was a format Ace used for a while to get shorter stories into a bigger book. At home (i.e. not here at school) we have several of those. As I recall they cost 25-35 cents for each one (that's TWO stories for a quarter!). This was a long time ago of course. Adam Barr ------------------------------ Date: 14 Oct 86 21:39:32 GMT From: peora!joel@caip.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: 'Ace' books I have a lot of these books from the 60s and early 70s. My impression is that it was just a easy way to make novelettes from S-F magazines big enough to make a paperback book. I'd wager that most of the anthology compilations are of later vintage, after the stories became established classics. If my recollection is correct, there was a time, before hardcover edition of science fiction became common, that Ace published the majority of science fiction in book form. I think Ace may still publish some of their other genres, such as Westerns, in this format sometimes. I can think of a couple of my favorite authors, such as, Philip High and maybe H. Beam Piper that I don't have in anything but Ace editions. I've lost a couple of my High novels, that I would sure like to replace. The most annoying thing about Ace doubles is that I keep my science fiction organized alphabetically by author. This is rather difficult when you have two novels by two authors in one book. Joel Upchurch @ CONCURRENT Computer Corporation Southern Development Center 2486 Sand Lake Road Orlando, Florida 32809 (305)850-1031 {decvax!ucf-cs, ihnp4!pesnta, vax135!petsd, akgua!codas}!peora!joel ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 86 06:24:42 GMT From: safari!dave@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Venus & Vitamin C Help! I've been trying to track down a short story for about 15 years (I don't have the title nor the author); but this is the situation as best as I can remember it: Around 1968 I came across a paperback collection of 10 short stories, each written by various authors. The person compiling the book itself wrote the last story where he started out by saying he was having a hard time selecting the last story for the book. He then tells how he was looking out the window one afternoon when a man came up to his door (he being a well known writer) and proceeded to tell a fantastic story which he himself claims to be a prediction of the future. Now the author then relates the man's story to the reader (with occasional "intermissions"). The man's story is about global war and how a few scientists escape to Venus in hopes of preserving the human race. Unfortunately, for some reason, they are all sterile due to a lack of vitamin C. Even more unfortunate is that although they are scientists, none of them know enough about synthesizing vitamin C, and the books they brought with them make no mention of it. The last pages of the book deal with the scientists (one of which is a sf-lover) desperately going through all of their books on the chance that one of them has the formula for synthesizing vitamin C. As you turn to the last page of this last story, there you see the formula. Does anyone know the writer or title of this? Does anyone have a book with this story in it? I believe there was another story in the same book called "Volpla" -- about a scientist living near Vandenberg AFB who created a bunch of intelligent winged creatures, taught them a language, and then - as a practical joke - taught them a false account of their origin in the hope that they would be discovered by someone later who would decipher their language and be fooled by the creature's false history. Any information would be greatly appreciated. ...!tektronix!reed!omen!bucket!safari!dave ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Oct 86 0844-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #352 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 20 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 352 Today's Topics: Books - Zelazny (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 86 23:17:58 -0100 Subject: Law and Amber From: Bard Bloom <bard@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU> >I don't think that the terms Law and Chaos in the Moorcock/D&D/etc >sense apply to Amber and Chaos. Good point. I was hoping that someone would make it. Although it often makes sense to think of Pattern and Chaos as opposing principles in the Amber universe, since they are opposing poles of Shadow, it is possible to take this too far. The Pattern, the actual basis for the Amber end of Shadow, is not Pattern the abstract principle but one particular pattern, shaped by Dworkin as well as the Jewel. Amber is hardly the embodiment of Law and Order, and is in some ways more anarchic than Chaos. Remember, for example, the Chaos Lord who objected to Corwin's unsportsman-like conduct. Remember also that it was Random who was chosen to rule in Amber and not, for example, Benedict. In general, I think it is a mistake to take simple categories too seriously because they lead us to see less of what's there rather than more. This is the only argument I can give, really, against the imposition of the D&D categories on the Amber universe -- to me they are, in this case, essentially anti-helpful, they obscure and distort rather than reveal. I do not, for instance, see how the Law/Chaos distinction can tell us the basis or extent of shape-shifting ability. This question is not resolved in the books; it's one of the things that neither we nor Corwin have the answer to. Nor do we, contrary to Laurence Raphael, "KNOW that the Logrus is not an aspect of the primal pattern because Chaos existed prior to Law". To answer this question, we would need to know more about the Jewel and the Logrus both. Other readers may, of course, feel differently. But I hope we do not end up in a long argument over this. I'm not saying that no one should think in terms of Law/Chaos at all, just that we shouldn't adopt them a priori and use them to generate answers where they may not apply. We have to look first to what Corwin actually tells us and reserve judgement, to a large extent, on the rest. This is not to say that nothing from outside can have any application. I disagreed with Laurence Raphael above, but not with everything he said. For example, from the same message: Dworkin is more like the Corn King of old, whose life was tied to his domain and who ruled under the auspices of whichever Goddess-archetype you prefer. When Amber was beset (resulting from treachery rather than external assault, really), Dworkin's state reflected Amber's disarray, albeit the whole thing originated in the attack on Martin. This particular link to other mythologies had not occurred to me and, although the analogy is not perfect, I find it useful. It's too easy, when reading SF or fantasy, to limit ourselves to thinking in terms of a true story about an imaginary world and to forget interpretive techniques that we might apply elsewhere. However, when we *are* wondering what's true in an imaginary world, we should remember that some techniques will not be particularly helpful. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 14 Oct 86 01:15:49 GMT From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas Cox) Subject: Amber, Law, and Chaos >From: Bard Bloom <bard@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU> > I don't think that the terms Law and Chaos in the >Moorcock/D&D/etc sense apply to Amber and Chaos. The Courts of >Chaos, though chaotic in flavor, are very orderly and quite >stratefied; they are Lawful. Amber, made by the Pattern, has had a >rather chaotic history even at its most peaceful. Various >characters comment on this at appropriate times, but I can't >remember who or when. Ah HAH! What fun. How's this: Amberites and Chaosians -- that is, the natives of Amber and of the Courts of Chaos, respectively -- are actually *very similar* in nature. But because the Amberites live in what we can call an unusually Orderly part of Existence, the more chaotic parts of their beings rebel and they squabble. The Chaosians, surrounded by more Chaos than anyone could want, counteract that by being very orderly. Okay, so it's a lousy little Just So Story. But it almost kinda makes a little sense, sort of. Don't you think? Thomas Cox ...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 86 02:56:06 GMT From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas Cox) Subject: Dara, Benedict, and Lintra dml@loral.UUCP (Dave Lewis) writes: > The explanation for all of this is a little strange ... Benedict >ended his war with the hellmaids in an overnight `conference' with >their leader Lintra, from which he returned minus an arm. False. He returned from the conference having [we suspect and Dara tells us] having <ahem> 'known' Lintra the Hell-Maid. But was Lintra a Lord of Chaos? I suspect *not*, for I believe that all Lords of Chaos have human features, whereas Dara was the first of Lintra's descendants to have human features. Dara says so, anyway. It was in the battle later on that he, fighting Lintra, hesitates to kill her. SHE then cuts off his arm, and *then* he kills her. [Benedict showing emotion?] If Dara's maternal line isn't Lords of Chaos, then she MUST get ALL her shapeshifting abilities PLUS her ability to walk the Pattern from Benedict! [Okay, maybe the intervening generations included Lords of Chaos, but that's no fun as an answer.] >>I believe that Dworkin fathered Oberon *before* drawing the >>pattern. The evidence is not conclusive, but I think Oberon grew >>up in the Courts of Chaos. This seems unlikely if Amber already >>existed at that point. I can recall NO mention either way. If Dworkin mated with the unicorn before making the Pattern, then Where Was the Jewel Of Judgement All That Time???? Was Dworkin toting it around all that time? That seems hugely unlikely. Considering the Jewel's effect on all creatures other than the Unicorn, I'd guess that Dworkin got the Jewel and fathered Oberon in short order, and then soon after created the Pattern. >>... when did Merlin grow up? Dara is impregnated by Corwin in >>_The_Guns_of_Avalon_ [...]. From that point, the action is more >>or less continuous until the Patternfall battle, where Corwin and >>Merlin meet. It is stated that Merlin grew up at the Courts of >>Chaos. Yet it seems that time flows slower at the Courts than at >>Amber: Corwin spends a few hours there, yet is gone from Amber for >>a week. For that matter, where did Dara grow up? Remember, Lintra had sex with Benedict, and then died in battle a day [or was it more time than that?] or so later. In the interim she had to have gestated and delivered a child! And between the time of Benedict's liaison w/ Lintra and Corwin's meeting with Dara, surely no more than a month in Benedict's shadow, THREE GENERATIONS were born and raised, ending with Dara! [At least I think it was three -- could someone check this?] Anyway, we see some serious screwing around with time here. Most annoying. Thomas Cox ...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 86 12:33:19 GMT From: iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Iverson) Subject: Re: Amber - Shape-shifting ability (Spoiler for Blood of Subject: Amber) ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes: [in regard to the origin of the shape shifting ability] >Well, I finished Blood quite recently and I can't see what >definitive answer you are referring to. (To which you are >referring? Whatever.) When Merlin faces the Dweller, Zelazny describes the process by which Merlin shifts - via the Logrus. >As someone else pointed out, Oberon was born in Amber, was unlikely >to ever have been to the Courts, (let alone near the Logrus) yet >could shape-shift. How? Oberon was born in Chaos - see the passage in THE COURTS OF CHAOS where Oberon and Dworkin discuss their childhood at the Courts and the self-discipline it taught them. Dworkin also points out that he has assumed that walking the Pattern would be enough to teach Oberon's children similar control. Tim Iverson iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU ...!ucbvax!cory!iverson ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 1986 12:18 EDT (Wed) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> To: oliveb!trash@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU (Tom Repa) Subject: Amber First set of five: Nine Princes in Amber Guns of Avalon Sign of the Unicorn Hand of Oberon Courts of Chaos the new set: Trumps of Doom Blood of Amber ??? ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 1986 12:26 EDT (Wed) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> To: fai!ronc@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Amber (Zelazney) fai!ronc at caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) writes: >LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU writes: >> Final point. Remember what it means, at least according to >>Dworkin, when you inscribe a Pattern? You become it, it becomes >>you. Your injuries are its injuries, its injuries are yours, but >>you can't be hurt unless it is first, and it can't be hurt unless >>you are first, etc. Of course, Dworkin made a slight >>miscalculation, in that the blood of his descendants could also >>hurt his Pattern, but...Anyway, considering all that, what does >>Corwin's having created a Pattern REALLY mean? Is he now >>invulnerable...? > >Hmmm. Perhaps a little hyperbole on Dworkin's part... He later >says that he can destroy Amber by walking the pattern then stabbing >himself. Doesn't sound very invulnerable to me... But that was contingent on his walking to the Center of the Pattern. The implication that I get out of this is that the creator of a Pattern can also destroy it, by destroying himself in the center. That seems to me to be the only way the creator of a Pattern can be hurt however (well, barring what we already know about blood on the Pattern). ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 86 16:33:33 GMT From: cbdkc1!blb@caip.rutgers.edu ( Ben Branch 3S315 CB x4790 WSB ) Subject: Re: Amber - Merlin I attended MARCON XXI earlier this year, at which Zelazny was the GOH and read to us from the manuscript of Blood of Amber. He commented that this was the first time he had actually started working on a subsequent Amber novel (Ghostwheel, I think, is the working title of the next one) before the earlier one was published. So I don't think he's sitting on them. He writes other stuff inbetween, usually. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 86 23:20:56 GMT From: weitek!robert@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Dara, Benedict, and Lintra benn@sphinx.UUCP (Thomas Cox) writes: >For that matter, where did Dara grow up? Remember, Lintra had sex >with Benedict, and then died in battle a day [or was it more time >than that?] or so later. There isn't any real indication of how long the war lasted in Avalon's timestream. It would have been limited to about five years, Amber time (Corwin uttering his curse to Corwin arriving in Avalon). The "one day" theory has no evidence to support it. If the war in Avalon went like it did in Lorraine, it lasted at least several years, local time. > In the interim she had to have gestated and delivered a child! >And between the time of Benedict's liaison w/ Lintra and Corwin's >meeting with Dara, surely no more than a month in Benedict's >shadow, THREE GENERATIONS were born and raised, ending with Dara! >[At least I think it was three -- could someone check this?] >Anyway, we see some serious screwing around with time here. Most >annoying. It's clear that a time-distortion on the order of 100:1 is necessary, but there's no reason to believe that this is unusual in the Shadows near Chaos. Robert Plamondon UUCP: {pyramid,turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 86 00:57:43 GMT From: msudoc!beach@caip.rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: Re: Amber -- WITH MAJOR SPOILERS >From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> > As a matter of fact, in Blood of Amber, Fiona tells Merlin >that so far no one has been able to so much as touch Corwin's >pattern. He tries it, and claims to be unsuccessful, but later >admits, to the reader, that he could reach it but didn't want to >give that away. Actually the reason he mentioned to the reader for not setting his foot down on the Pattern of Corwin is that once he started he would have to finish walking the whole thing - which would have taken time he didnt have if he were to get back to class on time. I gathered that this occured while he was still in college. Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 86 01:26:59 GMT From: msudoc!beach@caip.rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: Re: Amber -- WITH MAJOR SPOILERS franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >I have another question concerning chronology: when did Merlin grow >up? Dara is impregnated by Corwin in _The_Guns_of_Avalon_, i.e., >after Corwin's escape from the dungeons. From that point, the >action is more or less continuous until the Patternfall battle, >where Corwin and Merlin meet. It is stated that Merlin grew up at >the Courts of Chaos. Yet it seems that time flows slower at the >Courts than at Amber: Corwin spends a few hours there, yet is gone >from Amber for a week. Am I missing something? I got the impression that the descendants of the Hellmaid Lintra and Benedict were brought up in some area of shadow near or within Chaos where time flows VERY rapidly. Remember Dara was Benedict's Great- Granddaughter but only a few weeks had passed in Avalon time from Benedict's tryst with Lintra to Corwin's encounter with Dara. Also remember that Chaos is naturally a very Chaotic place and time flow is almost certainly not constant within the Courts. Another interesting point is that Merlin's younger brother in the Courts is also a descendant of Benedict - if not of Corwin. And like Dalt potenially had acces to the Pattern in Tir'na No'gth. Also a Sorcerer in the Keep of the Four Worlds might have enough surplus power lying around to make building a trump gate practical. Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 86 02:34:36 GMT From: msudoc!beach@caip.rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: Re: amber S6VYJE%IRISHMVS@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes: >it is entirely possible that Oberon's children can shape shift. >remember, Brand only learned how to draw trumps because he hung >around Dworkin. The children were far more interested in shadow >than abilities Dworkin and Oberon hid. Martin, Random's son, could >draw trumps too, so the power persisted to that generation. I dont recall any evidence that Martin has either the artistic talent or the knowlege to prepare a trump. The trumps that he had in the _Courts of Chaos_ consisted of Benedict's spare pack and some that Merlin had given him. Remember Martin had been Dara's original source about Benedict and after the scene in the throne room involving Benedict asking Martin about Dara, Martin summoning Dara via Trump, and the Mysterious sequence culminating in the disappearance of Benedicts artificial arm, Random then asks his son where he got a trump for Dara and Martin shows him the trump of the Artist who Dara identifies as Corwin's and her son Merlin. >Corwin's enemy and lover, whose name escapes me, says that it was >time to inject some new strength into the line. (the quote is very >inexact). Corwin's lover and the mother of Merlin was named Dara. As to the inexact quote a somewhat more exact version is when Oberon and Corwin are having a final talk at Corwin's tomb Oberon says something on the order of: "Dara will make you a good queen. I trust the blood of Chaos for strength, and it's time for a new infusion. And you will come to the throne already provided with an heir, once he overcomes his upbringing" Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Oct 86 0905-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #353 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 20 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 353 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 Oct 86 21:04:02 GMT From: rayssd!gmp@caip.rutgers.edu (Gregory M. Paris) Subject: Re: Bishop giving back pistol: another idea I think that a more rigorous explanation is that Bishop's programming didn't allow him to use weapons. Note that he never takes any hostile action against any of the aliens. Greg Paris {allegra,cci632,gatech,ihnp4,linus,mirror,raybed2}!rayssd!gmp ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 86 22:31:17 GMT From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Explosive Projectiles gelfand@valid.UUCP (Brooks Gelfand) writes: > Anti-tank projectiles come in three main types. > > Penetrateors such as APDS (Armor Piercing Disposable Sabot).. > > Rounds such as the "bazooka" and other rocket projectiles that use > heat to burn through the armor.... > > Rounds such as HEP-T that coat the armor on the outside, detonate, > set up vibrations in the armor causing it to splinter. The splinters > then kill the crew.... You missed one (not that I'm any expert in these matters): the A-10 tank killing airplane carries Uranium (what's left after the enrichment process used to produce reactor uranium, whatever its number is - can't remember right now) tipped shells - non explosive. These strike the tank so hard that they punch a nice neat little hole in the side, in the process melting the uranium tip. On entering the crew compartment, the uranium fans out and carves up the crew like so much butter meeting hot knives. A civilised way to pulp humans you might say - nice neat little tank sitting in the battlefield with nothing but a small, round hole in its side; you never have to look at what's inside, lets you get away without thinking about it. Dead humans can be so unsightly, don't you think? Incidentally, the average lifetime of a tank once an A-10 enters the battlefield is approximately 45 seconds. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to throw up in the corner. Tim Abbott {allegra,ihnp4}!{noao,ut-sally}!utastro!tmca tmca@astro.UTEXAS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 86 13:58:27 EDT From: nutto%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Andy Steinberg) Subject: Part 3 : MORE ALIENS In ALIEN the movie we never did see what happened to Dallas and the others whom the alien captured. In the novelization Ripley finds Dallas and Brett encased in cocoons with alien larvae feeding on them. My own personal theory is that the derelict was an alien ship from far beyond earth's sphere of existence. I say this because (1) Humans had never before encountered a ship of that form or creatures like the dead pilot (2) LV-426 was unsurveyed until the Nostromo landed on it although the Company had previously decoded the beacon (3) in ALIENS the company agent said a creature that "gestates inside a living human host and has acid for blood" had never been discovered on over 300 known planets. I believe the ship was carrying the last of the alien eggs to dump on an isolated planet but the ship crashed and some the eggs hatched. An interesting question is raised here, what happened to the alien that matured inside the pilot? And also, if LV-426 was outside the fringes of human civilization, where was the Nostomo returning from with its cargo of crude oil? Lambert said it would take them 10 months to get back to Earth, they had probably been in hypersleep for years before then. In ALIENS the movie there seemed to be only one atmospheric processor, in the novel there were dozens of them all over the planet. Can anyone clear up these mysteries, or will we just have to wait for the sequel when somebody picks up the alien queen floating in space in MORE ALIENS? Personally I think they did a magnificent job on both ALIEN and ALIENS and should quit while they're ahead. Incidentally, I recently learned that when ALIEN first came out they had those facehuggers on the market. You would put it on your face and bite down on the tube so it wouldn't fall off. Something about deliberately putting one of those on your face gives me the willies! And a friend of mine was in Califonia this summer and told me they had ALIENS T-shirts there. The T-shirt is covered with blood and guts and has a rubber snake sticking out of the middle. It would be nice to rig one up so the snake would pop out when you hit a hidden control. And of course a ketchup pack would add to the effect. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Oct 86 06:24:41 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Part 3 : MORE ALIENS >In ALIEN the movie we never did see what happened to Dallas and the >others whom the alien captured. In the novelization Ripley finds >Dallas and Brett encased in cocoons with alien larvae feeding on >them. Supposedly critics who reviewed the film as late as a week before its actual release saw these scenes. They were cut at the last moment. Ridley Scott claims that they slowed the pace of the film. More likely, they decided the scenes were a bit strong for the general public. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 14 Oct 86 01:07:25 GMT From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas Cox) Subject: Explosive Projectiles > gelfand@valid.UUCP (Brooks Gelfand): > Anyway, when the Marines first mentioned that they carried > explosive- tipped, armor-piercing rounds in their weapons, I was > delighted. Nothing better to use on an exoskeletoned beast than > something that would 1. penetrate that armor and 2. promptly blow > up. Like putting an M-80 or three inside a pumpkin -- kablooey. > Much better than, say, a lead slug or lead pellets. Hey, Maude! Check this out! We got *data* on the Net! Yeah, like facts and shit. No kidding. [see below, not above.] I am replying STRICTLY with respect to AlienS [the movie] so MOST of the *excellent* article that Brooks Gelfand wrote is NOT here. Look for it in full. >Rounds such as the "bazooka" and other rocket projectiles that use >heat to burn through the armor. Not relevant to the rounds used by the Marines in AlienS, as far as I can tell. >Rounds such as HEP-T that coat the armor on the outside, detonate, >set up vibrations in the armor causing it to splinter. The >splinters then kill the crew. Also not relevant, I think. In other words, the Marine rounds in the movie are either like 1. above -- just bullets -- or else they are for-real exploding type bullets. >The problem with armor piercing round that are also explosive are >two fold. The detonator must be robust enough to survive >penetrating the armor yet quick enough to detonate while the >projectile is still in the target. To complicate matters the target >may be located from several meters to several HUNDRED meters from >the muzzle. At close range we don't want the projectile to pass >through the target and then detonate; at distance we don't want the >projectile to detonate before it has penetrated the target. >Examples of these two problems can be seen in certain events of >World War II. [examples deleted.] >Last we come to the safties on the fuze. The American 40mm grenade >has two safties, a set back and a rotation counter. The set back is >activated by the acceleration when the round is fired; the rotation >counter insures that the shell will not detonate closer than 30 >feet from the firer. This would be minimum for any explosive >projectile. [...] This is a lot of complicated and expensive >machinery to add to a rifle bullet. >For an armor (or exoskeleton) defeating anti-personnel (anti-bug) >round, I would perfer a high velocity, heavy (to retain velocity) >projectile capable of piercing the armor which would upset (so it >would not exit) and bounce around inside destroying the soft >vulnerable parts. Nit-picky time. The Marines used a *standard* round. Not one custom-made for exoskeletoned Bugs. Which is a shame, though the standard round they used seemed to work just fine. Rather than have the slug upset, I would have it fragment [like a dum-dum or mercury-filled bullet] to cause maximum internal damage. I'm sure that either of these would plausibly be termed 'exploding' but would NOT, unfortunately, be armor-piercing. I want to interject here that the AlienS' exoskeletons have to be VERY tough. A standard Earth insect cannot be much more than a few inches long and still move at all -- weight increases too fast, and the musculature that moves any exoskeletoned creature will not provide enough strength past that size. Hence the arrival of center-boned creatures with muscles OUTSIDE the support structure. BUT THE ALIENS DON'T HEED THIS LIMITATION and that MUST mean that their exoskeletons are BOTH preternaturally strong and light. Perhaps metallic-based? [Assuming they really have exoskeletons at all.] So armor-piercing is a VERY good description of what one would need to hurt one of these buggers. >This would be a jacketed lead (for weight) projectile with a >penetrator core. Voila no moving parts, highly reliable, very >effective, and cheap. I guess that the lead jacket mushrooms against the exoskeleton and the core continues on through the armor, upsetting and tumbling. Don't shoot that baby at me. My preference remains for a round that is completely rigid, so all of it penetrates, and that literally exploded just an instant after penetration, so the rigid round splinters into rigid shrapnel. Would you allow me an impact-sensitive chemical explosive core as one solution? [I will appeal to the advanced science of the future to supply this explosive in time for the movie.] More comments from the peanut gallery, please. Thomas Cox ...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 86 01:41:35 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!boreas@caip.rutgers.edu (The Mad Tickle Monster) Subject: Re: Explosive Projectiles benn@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Thomas Cox) writes: >My preference remains for a round that is completely rigid, so all >of it penetrates, and that literally exploded just an instant after >penetration, so the rigid round splinters into rigid shrapnel. >Would you allow me an impact-sensitive chemical explosive core as >one solution? Nope. When you slam that impact-sensitive explosive forward (read: fire it), it would go off in the barrel. You would shock it even more when firing it than it would be shocked when it slammed into the bug-eyed monster. . . . (It'd lose energy from air resistance and such). You'd probably get a nice shotgun effect, IF your gun's barrel were suffi- ciently strong to withstand the blast, but it would have very little range, low accuracy, and poor penetration, I would think. It'd also shred the inside of the barrel rather quickly. Besides, I wouldn't want to carry any of that ammunition around; if it were hit while in battle, it'd blow up in the soldier's pocket. Not good. I'd much rather have something like the smart bullets in Vernor Vinge's book, _The_Peace_War_. Just add a bit of programming to set off the explosive charge after impact. . . . Michael Justice BITNet: cscj0ac@bostonu CSNET: boreas@bucsb.UUCP UUCP: ....!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 86 14:17:51 -0500 From: Wes Miller <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA> Subject: Bishop/Pistol What about the simple solution for this question. If Bishop is in the pipe (and this was a rather tight fit), he sure couldn't fire the gun behind him because of the cramped conditions. If an Alien was in front of him and he hit it the way would be blocked by dead Alien and much acid, assuming of course that the acid exploding in the confined area didn't short circuit him (it?). Also, firing a weapon in such a confined area could cause a problem from many sources...heat, deflection, concussion, etc. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 86 15:53:09 GMT From: imsvax!paul@caip.rutgers.edu (Paul Knight) Subject: Re: Explosive Projectiles/Exoskeletons benn@sphinx.UUCP (Thomas Cox), discussing the kinds of bullets one would like to have when shooting AlienS: >I want to interject here that the AlienS' exoskeletons have to be >VERY tough. A standard Earth insect cannot be much more than a few >inches long and still move at all -- weight increases too fast, and >the musculature that moves any exoskeletoned creature will not >provide enough strength past that size. Hence the arrival of >center-boned creatures with muscles OUTSIDE the support structure. >BUT THE ALIENS DON'T HEED THIS LIMITATION and that MUST mean that >their exoskeletons are BOTH preternaturally strong and light. >Perhaps metallic-based? [Assuming they really have exoskeletons at >all.] So armor-piercing is a VERY good description of what one >would need to hurt one of these buggers. The argument for a super-tough exoskeleton is not convincing: 1) Insect size is constrained much more by their metabolic requirements than by the physics of muscle attachment to the exoskeleton. They don't have lungs or efficient circulation of "blood" to support a large body mass. They respire through the exoskeleton, which does limit its thickness. They also depend on movement of the exoskeleton to provide pumping for respiratory processes, limiting its rigidity. It's not clear that AlienS are constrained in this way. 2) I'm not convinced that an exoskeleton is so bad for construction of fairly large bodies. Examples: Most cars now use a unibody construction, which is based on the strength of the steel shell, rather than an I-beam frame (skeleton). Humans wearing armor are essentially using both endo- and exoskeletons, and can be fairly agile in this configuration. 3) If we don't require the exoskeleton to be uniformly thick, then it can provide strength for body support, while not being terribly thick or strong at all points. Crabs, some of which grow fairly large, use this structure. AlienS built on this model, with an efficient respiration system, could be as large as we observe [:-)] and still be relatively vulnerable. (to a pot of boiling water and Old Bay seasoning.... yum) Paul Knight ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 86 18:46:58 GMT From: mmm!cipher@caip.rutgers.edu (Andre Guirard) Subject: Re: Aliens: Why did Bishop give back the pistol to Karen Subject: Allen? >Couldn't it also be because the androids basically are nonviolent? >In the movie I didn't see Bishop actually do any combat. If >androids at that time really were programmed with Asimov's law, >this would seem to reinforce pacifistic tendencies. There's a better reason than that. If Bishop is attacked by aliens, then the pistol wouldn't save him. Therefore it is useless. So why encumber himself with it? I doubt that an android sent on a mission to exterminate aliens would have a builtin prohibition against exterminating aliens. Why unnecessarily reduce their fighting force by one from the beginning? Especially since Bishop is the best soldier you could ask for: fast, strong, obeys orders and is next to impossible to kill. Bishop was also the smartest "person" there, though, and probably felt he would be more useful in the lab. Andre Guirard ihnp4!mmm!cipher ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Oct 86 0927-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #354 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 20 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 354 Today's Topics: Films - Star Trek (2 msgs) & Star Wars, Radio - SF Radio & Clarke, Miscellaneous - Ringworld (2 msgs) & Comics & Good SF vs Bad SF & Weapons at Cons (4 msgs) & Christmas with Doctor Asimov ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Oct 86 09:16:49 -0800 From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU> To: Karl Cialli <ur-tut!agoe@caip.rutgers.edu> Cc: galloway@b.isi.edu Subject: Re: Star Trek IV release date The original release date of STIV WAS Dec 12 until recently, when it was advanced to Nov 26 for reasons unexplained. The source of this info is Magel Barrett-Roddenberry and William Shatner, who appeared a few weeks back at a Creation Convention in Los Angeles. (Basically, Shatner was unable to make the 20th anniversary convention in Anaheim, so they hacked this one up just for him.) They mentioned the old posters which proclaimed Dec 12 as the date, suggesting that these posters might now have special collecter's value much the same as the early "Revenge of the Jedi" posters. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 86 14:50:17 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: STIV release date The local movie theatre has confirmed November 26 as the "tentative release date" for THE VOYAGE HOME. And, BTW, no more spoilers about the movie from people who have seen it, OK? And also, if you must spoil, no opinions... The scene with Kirk and Spock in Sickbay after Vejur could be easily run down too. (Does Scotty really use a Macintosh 8~)?) ------------------------------ Date: 18 Oct 86 21:36:27 GMT From: c8-2cc@seymour.Berkeley.EDU (Cindy W. Yan) Subject: Re: Star Wars I (not IV) jaymin@tcdmath.UUCP (Joe Jaquinta) writes: >I have heard that they have started filming Star Wars I (or -3 if >you prefer {-2 for mathemeticians}). Does anybody know if this is >true and if so what is the supposed plot summary? I'm not sure if they've actually started filming yet or not, but I did hear that they have started on the creatures for that. I heard that Industrial Light and Magic (ILM) in Marin (near Berkeley) is working on the creatures that they're using for that film. The idea of the first trilogy is supposed to be a recounting of what happened between Obi Wan Kenobi and Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker. That's about all I know. It's supposed to tell, in greater detail than in "Jedi", how Anakin came to be with the Dark Side. BTW, the last trilogy, beginning with Star Wars VI, is supposed to continue the adventures of Luke, Leia, and Han and the gang. It's supposed to pick up after "Jedi", but I don't know if it will ever be made. I hope that helps. Cindy ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 86 14:05:42 GMT From: alan@idec.stc.co.uk (Alan Spreadbury) Subject: Re: Theme Story Request From: firth@sei.cmu.edu >Just to get away from time travel, could I ask you SF lovers for >some story titles based on this plot device: > > There is another planet in our solar > system, sharing the Earth's orbit but > on the opposite side of the sun > >.... stuff deleted ... > > in which the planet is called Antigeos > >Any more? I can't give you a name, but I dimly recall a radio serial in the early fifties (when I was but a lad!) which featured the planet Antigeos. I seem to remember that it was on the BBC Light Programme (none of that Radio [1-4] nonsense in those days), and was broadcast on Sunday afternoons. The only thing I can rember about the plot was that it involved the nationalisation of the football pools, who were marking their demise by giving record dividends (I'm sorry if this is unintelligible to our US readers). This was a topical subject at the time, as the post-war Atlee government had just been nationalising everything in sight. Any other geriatrics remember it? Alan Spreadbury. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 86 16:09:04 GMT From: fluke!witters@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Arthur C. Clarke's "Songs of Distant Earth" on the radio. Arthur C. Clarke's "Songs of Distant Earth" is being broadcast on our local public radio station. It is being read by Dick Estelle (sp?) in his Radio Reader program on one of the public radio networks (NPR or APR). Here in Seattle it is being read Monday through Friday at 10:00 PM on KUOW. "Songs of Distant Earth" was published this year. I haven't read the book, but based on the one episode I've heard, it sounds like the typical "Sun goes nova, so humankind is forced to colonize the universe" story. It's the same kind of stuff Clarke has been doing since the 1950s. I really like these kind of stories, so I eagerly look forward to reading it (when it comes out in paperback). Incidently, I don't think the book uses FTL (Faster Than Light) travel (at least it didn't in the one episode I heard). John Witters John Fluke Mfg. Co. Inc. P.O.B. C9090 M/S 245F Everett, Washington 98206 (206) 356-5274 ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 86 15:38:17 GMT From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: R/R-WORLD: DATA rubin@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Rubin) writes: >A general question on ringworlds: what keeps 'em from collapsing >across the WIDTH of the ring, like a stepped-on tuna fish can? >There is a lot of mass around the edges, and each rim attracts the >other in an attempt to become an accretion disk. Solar gravity >(i.e. tidal force) also pulls slightly toward the midline. What keeps it from collapsing toward the *center* (if I understand you correctly) is the "artificial gravity," the centrifugal force pushing outward at 1G. Certainly, the force (or should I say acceleration?), from the sun *isn't* 1G, but M/(8.65E+07 sq.mi.) G, where M is the mass of the sun in Earth masses. (Forgive any errors in calculation; I'm work- ing this out on my fingers and toes!) The mass may be large, but not that large. When was the last time you saw someone fall off the Earth (1G) into the sun ((some ung*dly)G)? >One could make a ringworld squash-proof by bending the edges >outward slightly for a ") (" cross-section; that way the surface >would be normal to centrifugal force plus ring self-attraction and >solar tides, not just centrifugal force. Wouldn't the air run off the sides? Or, at least, away from the center? Hmmmm,... nike!orion!kaufman ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 86 08:10:45 GMT From: gaynor@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Silver) Subject: Re: R/R-WORLD: DATA topaz!rubin writes: > A general question on ringworlds: what keeps 'em from collapsing > across the WIDTH of the ring, like a stepped-on tuna fish can? nike!orion!kaufman writes: > What keeps it from collapsing toward the *center* (if I understand > you correctly) ... What I think rubin means is, "What keeps a ringworld from decomposing to a hoopworld?". That is, viz, what keeps /---------------\ /--- ---\ |\--- ---/| | \---------------/ | | | (the general shape of a tank-top...) | | | | \--- ---/ \---------------/ from becoming /---------------\ /--- ---\ |\--- ---/| (the general shape of something much | \---------------/ | more revealing than a tank-top! ;-) \--- ---/ \---------------/ via much crumbling and general environmental discomfort.... I was only trying to help!, Silver. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Oct 86 15:23 EST From: S6VYJE%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: comics I have noticed many incidental mentions of comic books on the net recently, indicating that a lot of people have contact with the genre, if they're not actually collectors. My question is this: How are comics perceived by sf fans in general? Secondly, I would be *extremely* interested in knowing of any digests devoted to comics along the lines of sf-lovers. Greg Morrow s6vyje@irishmvs.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 86 13:47:37 GMT From: gsmith@brahms (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Good Science Fiction vs Good Fiction From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU> > He was clearly using the term in a new and unfortunate sense. >Some people say "that's science fiction" when they mean "that's >impossible". > Actually, GOOD science fiction of course consist of things which >are NOT impossible. It seems to me that if this is so, then very little science fiction (including most of the best stuff from the literary point of view) is "good". Why is 'Rendezvous with Rama' "good" and 'The Time Machine' "bad"? Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 86 14:08 EST From: randell jesup (jesup@ge-crd.arpa) Subject: re: weapons policies I have been at cons with both ends of the spectrum of weapons policies, and definitely prefer the less restrictive. Lastcon has always had a relatively sane weapons policy. Weapons must be peace bonded (except, I believe, when on stage at the masquerade, and then they must be considered safe.) The con security people CHECK the peace-bonding if they have any doubt, and if you do not bond it, or draw a weapon, you can easily be excluded from the con forever. As far as I know, in 4 Lastcons, no one has broken the weapons policy. Security has the right to say 'put that in your room' if they feel the need. There have been no problems with mundanes in the hotel, even when it wasn't 'blocked'. Genericon has similar rules. I find that I enjoy a con such as Lastcon more because of this. I wear costumes (as do many others) that are appropriate to wear weapons with. (I also have a samurai persona, as well as a middle ages persona (I am also a member of the Society for Creative Anachronism (Middle Ages re-creation))). The SCA manages with no peace-bonding and REAL edged weapons without any problems, though they usually (but not always) deal with mundanes less. To do this at a con, you must have an adequate security force willing to ensure that peace bonding is enforced, and convention-goers that respect this. You must impress on them that they are GUESTS, and also representatives of fandom to the mundane world around them. Encourage people to feel reponsible, and to use common sense. Inform the local police whats going on, and that people in unusual costumes may be walking around (though beat it into the con-goers heads NOT to take weapons outside - have a weapons check at the door, for example. Randell Jesup Jesup@ge-crd.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Oct 86 10:42:22 PDT From: obrien%pluto@rand-unix.ARPA Cc: obrien%pluto@rand-unix.ARPA Subject: Re: Weapons policies at conventions I am not a weapons fan. I have never been a weapons fan and I never will be one. Imagine my surprise, then, when I was bitten by the weapons policies. I attended the last Boskone but one carrying an art piece: a 7-foot rosewood wizard staff with a large quartz crystal in a wooden cage at the top. It cost many hundreds of dollars and is heavier than ****. The registration people's jaws dropped when they saw it, then they banned it as a weapon. Everyone I've talked to since (who's seen the staff) has been aghast at this decision. Nevertheless, it is part and parcel of the "minimize the hassle and damn all logic" attitude that many con-coms feel forced into by their near-frantic attempts to avoid having the SWAT teams called in due to a war game in the lobby. (It's ironic how authoritarian many of these otherwise libertarian folks become. It's also the case that in at least one instance the SWAT team WAS called in, and only the grace of God prevented the death of at least one fan who didn't recognize the real thing when he saw it and pointed his blaster at a SWAT team member.) Leaving aside the fact that Boskone is one of the least fun cons I've ever attended even aside from this hassle, I must remark that the simple question "What is a weapon?" has yet to be satisfactorily resolved, let alone the question of what to do about them. It seems obvious to me that given the paranoia present in the mundane world about terrorism these days, some sort of weapons policy is needed. It's also obvious (to me at least) that banning a wizard's staff is going too far. Some con-coms, at least, are certainly over- reacting, to the detriment of all. I might suggest that certain areas of the hotel be closed to the general public, and weapons be allowed there. I have no idea how practical this is, but it is certainly true that blaster-waving in the lobby is no longer practical in today's society. Only the carry-over of the sanguine attitude of the 50's ("It can't be real...this is America!") has allowed it to continue thus far. It's too bad, too. I like Tulio Proni's work, though I'm not a weapons fan and am not tempted to buy one. For myself, I've voted with my feet (as the con-com chair recommended). I've commissioned several more works from this artist, and most fans will never see them, since I no longer attend many conventions -- they're just not worth the hassle. Mike O'Brien ------------------------------ Date: Fri 17 Oct 86 11:48:21-PDT From: Lynn Gold <Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Weapons policies From what I've read on this list, it sounds like the Worldcon concom rather overdid the weapons policy (no Isher weapons? Come ON!). Although I don't tend to carry anything more vicious than a cleaver :-), I like my concom's policy: YOU KILL IT, YOU EAT IT. Lynn Gold Westercon XXXX Con Suite ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 86 21:10:55 GMT From: cae780!gordon@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: weapons policies JESUP@ge-crd.arpa writes: > Lastcon has always had a relatively sane weapons policy. >Weapons must be peace bonded (except, I believe, when on stage at >the masquerade, and then they must be considered safe.) The con >security people CHECK the peace-bonding if they have any doubt, and >if you do not bond it, or draw a weapon, you can easily be excluded >from the con forever. Since I'm not "into" weapons at all, when I first saw the references to "peace bonding", I assumed it involved posting a bond to ensure that the weapon would not be used to disturb the peace, or whatever. The above sounds more like it is "bonding [e.g. tying] a gun into its holster". Could someone please inform a semi-mundane? FROM: Brian G. Gordon, CAE Systems Division of Tektronix, Inc. UUCP: tektronix!cae780!gordon {ihnp4, decvax!decwrl}!amdcad!cae780!gordon {hplabs, resonex, qubix, leadsv}!cae780!gordon USNAIL: 5302 Betsy Ross Drive/#58137, Santa Clara, CA 95052-8137 AT&T: (408)748-4817 [direct] (408)727-1234 [switchboard] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Oct 86 13:55:58 PDT From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Christmas with the Doctor! No, not that Doctor, but Isaac Asimov! Neiman Marcus is offering a special weekend with Dr. A. as part of its christmas catalog. For only $950 a couple (airfare extra) you can spend the weekend of december 5-7 with Asimov, who will read a sci-fi piece created for the weekend -- sans ending. The couples can then get together and come up with their versions of the ending. A definite must for all sci-fi fans! If you're interested, call the NM travel bureau. chuq ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Oct 86 0944-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #355 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 20 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 355 Today's Topics: Television - Star Trek (10 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Oct 86 17:10:05 GMT From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: STAR TREK: The Next Generation dragheb@isis.UUCP (Darius "OPRDRT" Ragheb) writes: >I would agree to do as you ask if they only named it something >else. The words star and trek together (i.e. Star Trek) mean one >thing: The Enterprise Capt. Kirk Mr. Spock Scotty Bones Chekov >Uhura Sulu etc. > >Working together to make a team (that is Star Trek). > >I am not saying that the new program will be crap (but it might >be...all indications of present network philosophy point to that >being the case): but they should not (must not) name it Star Trek. Gaack. Aren't you just a *little* tired of those characters by now? Aside from that, I disagree with your premise: Kirk, Spock, Enterprise, these are not Star Trek, Gene Roddenberry is Star Trek. I think we've lost sight of that sometime during the last 10 years. I could see maybe some of the original characters carried over in new positions, I.E., Sulu as Captain, Uhuru as space station commander, something like that, but to keep the same old officers in the same old positions on the same old bridge for all eternity doesn't sound very interesting to me. Or to the actors, by all accounts. Besides, is it realistic to have all those senior officers stationed on the same ship? Luckily, we may not have to put up with that. According to an article in the SF Cronicle, Paramount was concerned that a series would undermine the market for the Star Trek movies, and was reassured on that point when it was decided not to include any of the original cast in the series. Roddenberry is going to have creative control of the series, and may include cameo appearances by the original cast on occasion. Since the new series takes place 100 years later, this will need a little magic (oops, 24th century science), but it could be done. Finally, Roddenberry (how do you spell that?) said he wanted to make a series about *people*, not hardware, and chooses an SF setting because it makes the interaction between people more interesting. In other words, I don't think we're going to get cardboard characters wandering around amongst special effects fireworks like, for instance, the Buck Rogers show. (I still want to see what happens when Twikki meets the trash masher. BdeBdeBdeGrrkkkk...) Anyway, I think the future of Star Trek is new blood. Let's enlarge our horizons a little. Now, another thing: If I clamored for anything with the new show, it would be CONTINUITY. One of the primary weaknesses in the original series, in my opinion, was the formula approach: Teaser, minor crisis at 15 minutes, major crisis at 30 minutes, climax at 45 minutes, solve the problem in the last 10 minutes and a trailer to leave them laughing. Booorrring. I'd like to see some plot threads that take more than 60 minutes to solve. I'd also like to see more than one plot per program. We're not kids anymore. (Even the kids aren't kids anymore.) Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 86 09:17 CDT From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: star dates As I recall from the ST Technical Manual, stardates do rotate. The first two digits are the last two digits of the year, the next two digits are the number of the month (1=january, etc.), then a decimal point followed by the number of the day. So October 16th, 1986 (today) would be 8610.16 . Stardates between 1800 and 3500 would occur over a 17 year period, and 7500 (middle 7000's) would be forty years later. Now, if ST:TMP is 7500, and TWOK is 8000 that's only five years so that is not totally ridiculous. This all just goes to show that stardates have never been consistent (until recently, perhaps), and authors of episodes used a lot of license. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 86 06:02:35 GMT From: belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu (Matthew Belmonte) Subject: Re: STAR TREK: The Next Generation rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (Rick Kolker) writes: > The one thing that will help keep the writing at a high level is a > good Story Editor. The SE edits, watches consistancy, and even > rewrites to make sure the writing is true to the series and the > concept. For example, Harlan Ellison's original "City on the > Edge..." was a great story, but not great Star Trek. The final > version, after rewrite was both. What they did to "City on the Edge of Forever" was vandalise it in order to make it "wholesome, family entertainment," suitable for prime time broadcast by a major network during the 1960's. DRUGS IN SPACE?! Oh, damn! We'll get sued for causing an aspiring young American Jack-Armstrong-type astronaut to O.D. on some of those nasty drugs that have been polluting our society and corrupting our youth! Take all o' that out, and put in some hastily-concocted fillers! After all, by the 23rd century, everything will be absolutely perfect. We'll have this thing called the United Federation of Planets that brings "the American Way" to the whole damn galaxy -- by that time everyone will have realised that WE were right, and those nasty reds and European socialists were wrong. Yeah, we'll even put in Chekov to show how their descendants have been redeemed by Truth, Justice, The American Way, and other values common to Captain Kirk, Captain America, Superman, Batman ("Let's consult batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu, Robin."), and Jerry Falwell. Matthew Belmonte ARPA: <belmonte@rocky.cs.cornell.edu> <belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu> BITNET: <d25y@cornella> <d25y@crnlvax5> UUCP: ..!decvax!duke!duknbsr!mkb ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 86 18:28:00 GMT From: uwmacc!demillo@caip.rutgers.edu (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: STAR TREK: The Next Generation belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu (Matthew Belmonte) writes: >What they did to "City on the Edge of Forever" was vandalise it in >order to make it "wholesome, family entertainment," suitable for >prime time broadcast by a major network during the 1960's. DRUGS >IN SPACE?! Oh, damn! We'll get sued for causing an aspiring young >American Jack-Armstrong-type astronaut to O.D. on some of those >nasty drugs that have been polluting our society and corrupting our >youth! Oh, Good Lord...calm down. This was one of my favorite "Harlan-Ellison- is-Being-a-Baby" stories...I did a little work tracking it down. The story was edited because Harlan didn't want to stick to the Star Trek Universe format. You are quite right about it being originally a drug-abuse story...unfortunately, the Drug Pusher was Scotty. This, of course, did not fit into to Roddenberry's ideas of "there have to still be some virtuous heroes left in the world for us to look up to." So, Scotty could not be a drug pusher, so Harlan had a tantrum...he still won the Hugo for the script. Star Trek wasn't perfect, because it was on TV, but it did manage to break a few taboos: an interracial kiss, a crew of women who knew what they were doing, no one smoked cigarettes, etc. They did stories about communism, homosexuality, incest (sortof), etc. I'm sure that the fact that Ellison was dealing with something as sensitive as drug abuse wouldn't have scared off the production crew too much. In some respects, I agree with Ellison: writing is an art form and shouldn't be screwed around with...however, television (and the movies) is an "Artform by Committee." There are, of course, terrible problems with this schema..but Harlan, rather than trying to work around the problems, or trying to combat the problems from the inside, holds his breath until he turns blue. If he still doesn't get it *his* way, he walks...kinda childish, if you stop and think about it. Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center usenet: {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,topaz,decvax}!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ARPA: demillo@unix.macc.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 86 17:43:48 GMT From: adt@ukc.ac.uk (A.D.Thomas) Subject: Re: Star Trek: No Century of Progress From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) >The striking thing about the ST milieu is how similar it is to our >own. It is more similar to our society than ours is to Edwardian >England. Certainly someone transported out of our time would feel >more at home in the ST society than in the Edwardian one. ... >It's what you'd expect in 2000 AD if some aliens showed up tomorrow >and *sold* us a fleet of Enterprise-like ships. I wonder what would have happened if some aliens had showed up and sold Edwardian England a fleet of Enterprise ships. Maybe a little more training might have been necessary but would the end product in terms of Star Trek society been any different. There would have been a Ships Captain,Doctor, and Engineer etc .An officer class would have ordered untold numbers of minions about (probably not used up quite so quickly as cannon fodder as on the real ST) The Universe may well have been run differently, but the individual ships could have been run on very similar lines. On behalf of, Karen McMullan adt@ukc.ac.uk University of Kent, Canterbury, Kent. England. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 86 16:31:42 GMT From: fluke!witters@caip.rutgers.edu (John Witters) Subject: Re: Star Trek: No Century of Progress > Yeah, it occurred to me that with a working transporter, life on > Earth must resemble something out of a Niven story... Until I > realized that transporters are probably hideously expensive, > complex, and dangerous in the ST universe. (Remember all the > transporter related accidents in the series, and the two people > killed in the first movie.) Something as unreliable as the > transporter would probably not be used commercially, hence other > modes of transportation, like the super-bart, would be more > likely. Would anyone care to compile statistics of transporter safety v.s. automobile safety in the 20th century? I remember reading that the U.S. Army was losing more soldiers in auto accidents than in battle during the Korean war. That's why the Army began to require safety belts in jeeps in the 1950s. I assume that transporters would have to be at least as safe as automobiles or they wouldn't be used. John Witters John Fluke Mfg. Co. Inc. P.O.B. C9090 M/S 245F Everett, Washington 98206 (206) 356-5274 ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 86 08:35:20 GMT From: crash!victoro@caip.rutgers.edu (Victor O'Rear) Subject: Re: star dates According to Franz Joesph, author of the Tech Manual, Ballantine wanted to put the words "Star Trek" on the cover and he said no. The compromise they aggreed on was to put a removable 'Star Trek' signage on the outside of a removable black vinyl binding over 'The Star Fleet Techincal Manual.' Alas, when the re-realeased it this year the new printing droped the removable signage. If this is what you are consulting, I understand your error. (BTW, be on the look-out for Fan rip-off copies with NO copyright notice.) Victor O'Rear {ihnp4, akgua, sdcsvax, cbosgd, sdamos, bang}!crash!victoro ARPA: crash!victoro@[ucsd,nosc] BIX: victoro Proline: ...!{pro-sol,pro-mercury}!victoro People-Net: ....!crash!Pnet#01!victoro Fandom: S.T.A.R. - San Diego ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 86 01:27:46 GMT From: isis!dragheb@caip.rutgers.edu (Darius "OPRDRT" Ragheb) Subject: Re: STAR TREK: The Next Generation You are not the only one to put forth the idea that ST is not just a bunch of characters (I do agree: it is not a bunch of ACTORS). It is the first time I gave this serious thought, and this is what I came up with: ST is the ideals. It is what it stands for. BUT: Kirk Spock et al. are the media that put forth those ideals. As in ANY form of art that is itself not life, the characters are a bit exaggerated so that they may interact more completely (for the audiences benefit). We have Spock: logical We have Bones: etc. (I doubt I need to list what makes each character unique :-) Now, my point is, do you honestly think that a new crew could possibly interact together in such a way as to effectively put forth those ideals? the characters of the original ST (which, I admit, grew with time) worked together very well...their eccentricities and oddities FORCED them to show the ideals that ST stood for, and tried to overcome (like when Kirk wanted to blast the Gorn, and Spock kept running off the regulations and talking about war etc.) I just do not think that the TV networks are any longer capable of creating anything worthwhile: given what has been shown over the last few years, it is no wonder I am skeptical about the intelligence of the network planners! UUCP:{hplabs, seismo}!hao!isis!dragheb ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 86 13:46:07 GMT From: netxcom!rkolker@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker) Subject: Re: STAR TREK: The Next Generation dragheb@isis.UUCP (Darius "OPRDRT" Ragheb) writes: >Now, my point is, do you honestly think that a new crew could >possibly interact together in such a way as to effectively put >forth those ideals? Yes, maybe in a different way, but yes. >I just do not think that the TV networks are any longer capable of >creating anything worthwhile: given what has been shown over the >last few years, it is no wonder I am skeptical about the >intelligence of the network planners! C'mon now---Sturgeon's law here, 90% of anything is shit. There is great TV coming from the networks in 1986, just as there was in 1976, 1966 (when ST debuted) and 1956. There is also a lot of garbage. Some of the good stuff gets good ratings. Some of the garbage gets good ratings. There is also a lot in the middle, good ideas badly executed, and bad ideas well executed. The new Star Trek (not on a network) may be great, it may be mediocre, it is unlikely to be crap (but not impossible). But let it rise and fall on its own merits. And remember Spock's Brain. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Dr. Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 86 19:50:51 GMT From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: Star Trek and Social Change haste@andrew.cmu.edu writes: >ST society is our society without the features that we, today, >deplore--a sanitized 1980, a society we'd be pleased to live in. >ST society is one with the same ideals as ours. Wellllll, I think the societal (is that a word?) ideals in Star Trek is rather a sanitized 1969... Anyway, things are certainly looser than now. Miniskirts are back. (Even in the movies -- check out the background when Kirk gets off the shuttle in ST-TMP.) Intolerance is at an all time low, Etc. Now, ask yourself: Does this *really* reflect the 80's? Hate to tell you, but intolerance is on the rise. (Although there was a brief flurry of miniskirts a year or so ago. Sigh...) Now, I'm NOT saying there was no intolerance in 1969, but I think Roddenberry checked out the tendancy and extrapolated from that. What he didn't account for was the present backswing. Perhaps on purpose. Do we really want to see a series/movies about a totalitarian society? Now, the above assumes that the ST universe would represent something we already know. That, of course, may not be the case. But, at least part of the idea of a ST series is to get lots of people to watch it, and you don't do that by presenting a society that's confusing or even revolting by our own narrow standards. Even if it were entirely possible. Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Oct 86 0826-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #356 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 22 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 356 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony (3 msgs) & Card & Finney & LeGuin & McCaffrey (2 msgs) & Prescott & Ace Doubles & Alternate Earths & Upcoming Books & Story Request & Help on Finding Books & Story Request Answer, Magazines - IF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Oct 86 19:13:15 GMT From: ides!kimi@caip.rutgers.edu (Kimiye Tipton) Subject: Re: RACE AGAINST TIME by Piers Anthony > RACE AGAINST TIME by Piers Anthony > A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper > ...message that Anthony is putting out is that racial purity is > necessary to species vitality and, by extension, that > miscegenation is bad. Anthony apparently thinks that racial lines > are clear-cut and that the current racial groups are somehow > internally "pure." That is horse-puckey and so is the book. I'm glad Evelyn reviewed this one, because the book left a sour taste in my mind, too. Being the result of miscegenation myself, I wasn't sure if I was being too sensitive in thinking this book was racist. But in reading your review I suddenly became aware of the pun in the title, and now I don't think I'll ever be able to take Anthony as pleasant mind candy for long plane trips again. Whether Anthony personally believes in racial purity is beside the point-- a white supremeist would love giving this book to children. It presents an apparently unbiased, logical argument that we've all got a lot to lose by losing racial identity. But the argument ignores the fact that there is no such thing as *racial* identity--my roots are Japanese and American, not Oriental and Caucasian. Convince me that there is a "white" culture, or a yellow one, or a black one, and then I might concede that we've got something to lose by blurring racial lines. Then you'll also have to convince me that there's anything we should be concerned about losing. But since I do believe in free speech to the point of admitting that Hustler magazine has a right to exist, and I don't want to start up the book boycott argument again, I hereby offer to mail my copy of the book to anyone who just *has* to read it. But I don't recommend it. Kimiye Tipton Orlando, FL {ihnp4, akgua, ulysses, allegra}!abfll!kimi ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 86 22:25:00 GMT From: jpd249@uiucuxf.CSO.UIUC.EDU Subject: Piers Anthony Any body out there a Piers Anthony fan?? ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 86 20:24:05 GMT From: inuxd!jody@caip.rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross) Subject: Re: RACE AGAINST TIME by Piers Anthony >> RACE AGAINST TIME by Piers Anthony >> groups are somehow internally "pure." That is horse-puckey and >> so is the book. > > I'm glad Evelyn reviewed this one, because the book left a sour > taste in my mind, too. Being the result of miscegenation myself, > I wasn't sure if I was being too sensitive in thinking this book > was racist. But in reading your review I suddenly became aware of > the pun in the title, and now I don't think I'll ever be able to > take Anthony as pleasant mind candy for long plane trips again. I wish I had seen these two bad reviews on "Race...". I have already bought the book and didn't know it was so bad. I bought it for mindless dribble and so far it has lived up to that, but I am only up to chapter 5. I have to admit that I haven't stopped laughing yet, and I am sure I would have finished reading the book if I had more the ten minutes to read it in (my schedule is unreal). Please, will someone sent me a spoiler so I can forget reading it. So far I haven't liked the Idea of race purity shown, but I thought it had a point of showing that the zoo keepers were wrong. Thanks for any help. jody ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 86 15:48:41 GMT From: ihu1e!ttb@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas T. Butler) Subject: Anyone read "Speaker for the Dead"? I apologize if this has already been discussed on the net, I've been away. Has anyone read "Speaker for the Dead" by Orson Scott Card? It is the sequel to "Ender's Game", which I found to be one of the most enjoyable books I have read in recent years. I would appreciate a review by anyone who has had a chance to read it. It is out in hardcover only at present. Reply by mail, or post to the net if of general interest. Thanks, Tom Butler ..!ihnp4!ihu1e!ttb (312) 979-7999 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Oct 86 12:30:54 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Finney Cc: think!topaz!mtgzy!ecl Finney -"picking up where Bradbury leaves off"-? Well, maybe. I would guess Finney is not much younger than Bradbury (an early printing of the Finney collection THE THIRD LEVEL lists all the stories as dating from the mid-50's), and his early work was published in COLLIER'S and SATURDAY EVENING POST instead of SF zines (a beuatiful irony, since Campbell was then telling writers that he wanted stories which could be appearing in SAP in the future). In fact, I find it fascinating that he was writing such stories in the 50's, which we think of now as a stultifyingly ordinary period. More significantly, there's a sense-of-wonder in Bradbury that's completely missing in Finney, a sense of what the world was like when it was full of wonderfully mysterious unknowns (i.e., when \you/ were young); what Bradbury likes is those unknowns, rather than the pastoral settings they pop up in. Finney has used the time-slip schtick even in less-nostalgic stories. His least-unpalatable (to my taste---the standard he-should-have-a-career, she-should-get-married schtick is a flaw in most of his work) was reprinted in a PLAYBOY anthology: movie company filming a period piece in New York dresses up after midnight and takes the period bus out for a spin, where careerist supporting actress meets her-age version of a local elderly character actor who plays opposite her in the film. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 86 15:46:15 EDT From: ST701135%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: Earth in LeGuin's universe The reason that earth is sometimes a ruined world and sometimes not is that LeGuin's stories in her "hainish" universe span several thousand years. Earth gets ruined by humanity before _The dispossessed_, rebuilds itself, probably with much help from the Hainish, gets ruined by the "enemy" (_City of illusions_, _Rokannon's World_) and then rebuilds itself again when the enemy is thrown off (_Left hand of Darkness_ takes place about six hundred years after the "age of the enemy" if I recall correctly). Michael McClennen ------------------------------ Date: 13 Oct 86 23:03:05 GMT From: starfire!ddb@caip.rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet) Subject: Re: sad state of proofreading Anne McCaffrey's book _Get_Off_The_Unicorn_ was originally titled _Get_Of_The_Unicorn_, until some alert proofreader found and "fixed" the "mistake". And my wife, Pamela Dean, had the entire dedication and acknowledgements accidentally omitted from her second novel (The Hidden Land, Ace). David Dyer-Bennet Usenet: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb Fido: sysop of fido 14/341, (612) 721-8967 Telephone: (612) 721-8800 USmail: 4242 Minnehaha Ave S Mpls, MN 55406 ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 86 13:31:00 GMT From: friedman@uiucdcs.cs.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: sad state of proofreading > Anne McCaffrey's book _Get_Off_The_Unicorn_ was originally titled > _Get_Of_The_Unicorn_, until some alert proofreader found and > "fixed" the "mistake". As I recall McCaffrey's introduction to _Get_Off_The_Unicorn_, she said that the typo was in a list of books she had agreed to write -- not in the book itself. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Oct 86 03:24:48 GMT From: myers@hobiecat.Caltech.Edu (Bob Myers) Subject: Re: Gor and Prescot The very first Prescot book, _Transit_to_Scorpio_, had some comments (not very kindly) about a continent called Gah which strongly resembles Gor. Personally, I like the Prescot books an awful lot (for very light reading) and rather agree with the attitudes expressed therein about Go. I'm still missing a lot of Prescot's, mostly in the range 8-18 or so. I'm pretty sure they were published under Alan Burt Akers name. If anybody knows where I can get a hold of them... Has anybody ever played Jikaida? Bob Myers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 86 15:41:34 edt From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Ace Doubles These go back a long way. One of the earliest, for example, has as one of the pair Asimov's "The Thousand Year Plan"--later retitled "Foundation". Initially, the doubles could be quite long, but by the 1960s they'd settled on a 256-page format. Far from being a way to stretch novelletes, this became a way to chop novels. I recall being told that John Brunner was prominent among the writers who, when SF writers acquired more clout, insisted in having their 127-page novels reissued in their full length. Off the top of my head, some of the better Ace double titles which I haven't seen reissued include "Crisis in 2140" (H Beam Piper, despite the claim that all his books have been reissued), "Reality Forbidden" and "The Mad Metropolis" (Philip E High), "Crown of Infinity" (author?), "Vulcan's Hammer" (Philip K Dick), "Ladder in the Sky" (Woodcott?), "The Door Through Space" (Marion Zimmer Bradley--who is not about to let this one be reissued), "The Star Virus" (Dean R Koontz), "A Planet of Your Own" (title?) (John Brunner?), "Light of Lillith" (author?), "Beyond Capella" ("John Rackham")...... The list of excellent and familiar novels which first appeared in this format is surprisingly long. Dani Zweig ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Oct 86 00:18:11 -0300 From: Ady Wiernik <ady%taurus.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> Subject: Re: Alternate Earths What about the alternate earth mentiond in the third book of Philip J. Farmer's World of Tiers series (I think the book name was "red orc" - at least this was one of the major characters). **** Spoiler **** In this book, Kickaha finds out that the makers created earth, but not one earth - they made two of them (for backup I assume). The heros move between both earths using the usual Gates, and are chased wildly by the bellers all the time. **** End Spoiler **** Ady Wiernik ady@taurus.BITNET Tel Aviv Univ., Israel ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 86 16:44:55 GMT From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach; Lord of the From: OtherRealms) Subject: Upcoming from Donning/Starblaze Just got the latest press releases from Donning/Starblaze, and I thought I'd pass along the latest in the graphic novel world... Starblaze has signed for two new graphic novel series in 1987 -- A DISTANT SOIL written and illustrated by Colleen Doran, and GATE OF IVREL, adapted and illustrated by Jane Fancher from C. J. Cherryh's novel. Both have previously been published as B&W comic book formats. The Graphic editions will be 64 page, perfect bound, and published semi-annually. Both will be in color. A DISTANT SOIL will be available in March, 1987, GATE OF IVREL in April. [I got cover art for both #1's in B&W with the press release. Both look quite nice! -- chuq] NEW COMEDY SERIES! DUNCAN AND MALLORY, to be written by Robert Asprin and illustrated by Mel. White, this is the story of an unlikely team: Duncan, an errant (and quite clumsy) knight, and Mallory, a con-artist CPA, dragon, and general rabblerouser. This will be semi-annual, in the same format as Myth Adventures, starting Octover 1986. [Cover art for this looks like White is trying to do Foglio and doesn't quite make it. I get the impression that they are trying to duplicate Myth Adventures, probably because they're running out of ideas and need a new venue. It has promise, but I"m skeptical -- chuq] October Releases: AN EDGE IN MY VOICE by Harlan Ellison. Revised edition of Hugo Nominee collection of essays, trade paperback FORTUNE'S FRIENDS: HELL WEEK by Kay and Mike Reynolds, illustrated by Colleen Doran. Trade Paper, color graphic novel. First in a new, semi-annual detective series. MAGE #1 by Matt Wagner. Trade paper. TAKEOFF, TOO! by Randall Garrett, illustrated by Phil Foglio. Trade paperback, [yay! yippee! -- chuq] THIEVES' WORLD GRAPHIC #4 by Robert Asprin and Lynn Abbey, art by Tim Sale. Graphic Novel. [This has been quite good so far... -- chuq] THIEVES' WORLD GRAPHIC BOOK 1 -- THE COLOR EDITION by robert Asprin and Lynn Abbey, art by Tim Sale. Color Compilation of first three Thieves' World graphic books [I'm not at all sure how this will translate to color. A big maybe -- chuq] ON THE GOOD SHIP ENTERPRISE by Bjo Trimble. An uncensored, unauthorized Star Trek Memoir by the mother hen of Star Trek Fandom. Trade Paper. [should be a LOT of fun... -- chuq] November Releases: MYTH ADVENTURES TWO by Robert Asprin, art by Phil Foglio. Conclusion of Another Fine Myth. M.Y.T.H. INC. LINK by Robert Asprin, art by Phil Foglio. Trade Paperback. [have fun, y'all! -- chuq] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 86 08:00:10 -0800 From: Tim Shimeall <tim@ICSD.UCI.EDU> Subject: Wolfman story request Does anyone have a citation (Title, author, and preferably anthology where it can be found) for the "original" wolfman story? Tim ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 86 22:11:56 GMT From: bnrmtv!zarifes@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes) Subject: Need help finding these books! I have been looking all over for the folowing books and cannot find them anywhere: ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SUPERHEROES by Jeff Rovin ALL IN COLOR FOR A DIME by Lupoff and Thompson INFORMAL HISTORY OF THE PULP MAGAZINE by Goulart If anyone has these and would like to sell them I will take them off your hands. Alternatively, any hints on where to find them would be greatly appreciated (None of them are listed in _Books In Print_). Thanks, Ken Zarifes {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 86 15:51:24 PDT (Thursday) Subject: Re: Story Request From: Tallan.osbuNorth@Xerox.COM.osbunorth.ARPA In response to David S. Cargo's request. The story "The Beat Cluster" is from Fritz Leiber's book "A Pail of Air", first published by Ballantine Books in 1964. Michael Tallan ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 86 02:56:00 GMT From: mic!d25001@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Orphaned Response >Interestingly enough, I was turned on to SF by my grandmother in >1952. We lived with my grandparents, and my grandmother was a >regular reader of Worlds of If, Galaxy, and other SF magazines. I think that the title cited is an anachronism. My copies of those old magazines are boxed up out of reach; so, I am going by memory and the listings in the old Brad Day Checkslist. In the 1950's that magazine was known as "IF Worlds of Science Fiction", or more commonly, just plain "If". The logotype looked something like: If Worlds of Science Fiction The "If" was, of course, very large in relation to the rest. The 'running title' at the bottom of the magazine pages always read just "If" and the date. In 1959 the magazine changed publishers and dropped the "Worlds of" from the title to become just "IF Science Fiction". In the mid-60's the phrase was restored in its new place as a parallel to the publisher's other SF titles "Worlds of Tomorrow" and "Worlds of Fantasy". This is probably one of the more peculiar title changes that an SF mag has undergone; excepting the metamorphosis of "Astounding Stories of Super-Science" into "Analog Science Fact -> Science Fiction". BTW. I was introduced to SF by my mother; though, she did not read the magazines until I discovered them! Cheers to you, too! Carrington Dixon UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!mic!d25001 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Oct 86 0843-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #357 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 22 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 357 Today's Topics: Books - Zelazny (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Oct 86 00:31:12 GMT From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: Amber - the six-fingered dudes cate3.pa@Xerox.COM writes: > Two more questions. Does Amber live in a solar system which >is in a galaxy? Has there been mention of any shadows which go >back in time? Boy, this gets into the nature of reality... Are the shadows parallel universes, actual places on other planets, or what? I favor parallel universes, the departure point being whatever last detail the person has changed during his shadow walk. You could say that each of these places is an alternate earth orbiting an alternate sun in an alternate universe... Let's say Merlin wants to travel to planet 4 of Proximia Centauri. Let's say he knows what the terrain looks like, what the sun and constallations look like, and shifts shadow until the characteristics match exactly. Now, where, physically, is he? I don't think it matters. When you have that tight a control of 'reality', when you can eventually journey to any place you can imagine, mundane things like solar systems and galaxies don't count for much. No wonder the childern of Oberon are so arrogant. :-) Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 86 00:54:57 GMT From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: Amber - Shape-shifting ability (Spoiler for Blood of Subject: Amber) iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Tim Iverson) writes: >ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes: >[in regard to the origin of the shape shifting ability] >>Well, I finished Blood quite recently and I can't see what >>definitive answer you are referring to. (To which you are >>referring? Whatever.) > >When Merlin faces the Dweller, Zelazny describes the process by >which Merlin shifts - via the Logrus. Sure, I said the same thing later on in the article you quoted above. (I think. At least I intended to.) However, a) this doesn't explain Dara, and b) that Merlin uses the Logrus to shapeshift doesn't mean the Logrus is the only way to accomplish that bit of magic. For instance, I think we'll find that Jurt still hasn't walked the Logrus, but found some other way to assume wolf form. What if Merlin inherited his shape shifting ability from being 1/4 Hellmaid (whatever that is) and only uses the Logrus to make the shift faster than he otherwise could have? I could be wrong, of course. I hope Zelazny nails this down (one way or another) in the next book. Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 86 08:27 MST From: Mandel%pco@MULTICS.MIT.EDU Subject: Amber: Ganelon, 'action', Dara Trivia answer: In the Chanson de Rolant (Song of Roland), Ganelon was the knight who betrayed the good guys (Christians) to the bad guys (Saracens). I think he was a companion of Roland's who sold him out. Remember that in medieval/Renaissance Christian ethos, betrayal of a friend and lawful superior is the paramount sin, being an image of Judas's betrayal of Christ: Dante's deepest circle of Hell, immediately around the bound Devil, is reserved for Judas & some other such traitors. Corwin's reaction to Ganelon's name -- "That ratfink!" -- is quite appropriate to the urGanelon's behavior and Corwin's style. Reaction to the Amber books: I, too, feel that it's been a lot of talk and little action until I review. But that, I think, is because a lot of the talk *is* review: recapitulation of history, for the benefit of the amnesic Corwin, or other characters, and the reader. This is especially necessary because so much of the history keeps changing: what seemed to be happening turns out not to have been really happening, or not in that way, or to have been due to such different motives from the way it seemed, that the past keeps having to be revised or reinterpreted. -- A professor of mine (the linguist Charles Fillmore) once wondered aloud whether a book could be written that would have to be read N times for full understanding, because on the first reading you would discover at the end something in whose light you'd have to go back and reread everything to reinterpret it, and then in the rereading you'd discover a second point that forced reinterpretation (but the second point was not evident until you'd seen the first revelation), and so on. I thought not, because you'd be able to work it all out in your head after finishing the text once. But, of course, reading doesn't work that way (at least for most people), and the Amber series is proof. You do have to keep rereading. ** SPOILER ** On Dara: She didn't pose as Benedict's daughter, but as his great-granddaughter. I think that this turns out to be true, via Benedict's liaison with the hellmaid Lintra (and the time-differential between Chaos and Avalon). She walks the Black Road -- or, how does she get to Amber ahead of Corwin? -- and walks the Pattern there. (If she had walked any Pattern previously, why would she need to walk it in Amber?) -- I've only read the first 5, so if any of this is answered later I don't know it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 86 08:36 MST From: Mandel%pco@MULTICS.MIT.EDU Subject: Amber: time-differential Frank Adams's question about the direction of time-differential between Amber and Chaos is right on the nose. I think Zelazny slipped here, getting the "sign" of the difference wrong. This is comparable to Niven's slip on the direction in which midnight moves around the earth, but it goes to the foundations of the story and cannot be repaired in a paragraph or two in the next edition. it's one of those goofs to which you have to shrug and say, "Oh, well, suspension of disbelief just cracks at this point; I'll just have to patch it and ignore the discontinuity." ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 86 19:00:32 GMT From: iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Iverson) Subject: Re: Amber - Shape-shifting ability (Spoiler for Blood of Subject: Amber) ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes: >Sure, I said the same thing later on in the article you quoted >above. (I think. At least I intended to.) However, a) this >doesn't explain Dara, and b) that Merlin uses the Logrus to >shapeshift doesn't mean the Logrus is the only way to accomplish >that bit of magic. For instance, You are correct in saying that Dara is not entirely explained. However, it is known that natural shape-shifters exist (e.i. shifting seems to be a natural ability). They are first seen in NINE PRINCES IN AMBER when amnesiac Corwin faces the weres which shift from man to wolf. Perhaps Dara is a natural were. >I think we'll find that Jurt still hasn't walked the Logrus, but >found some other way to assume wolf form. What if Merlin inherited >his shape shifting ability from being 1/4 Hellmaid (whatever that >is) and only uses the Logrus to make the shift faster than he >otherwise could have? Merlin speculates that his attacker could have been placed in wolf form by someone else (Mask?). Maybe Merlin will ask the Unicorn when he figures out who she is - she's a shifter too, by the way. Tim Iverson iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU ...!ucbvax!cory!iverson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 86 16:49 EST From: S6VYJE%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Amber Cosmology As I generally interpret the pattern/Chaos relationship, when Dworkin enscribed his pattern, reality at that point became isolated and a duplicate pattern was created in a new reality, creating shadow by interaction of Pattern and Chaos. We really know very little about the primal pattern's universe (more would be *extremely* helpful), other than one has to warp shadow in a very different manner than normally to reach it. The geography of the primal universe seems to duplicate (or, rather, be duplicated by) Amber geography as one travels without shifting shadow. When Corwin created his pattern, then that part of reality became difficult/impossible to reach (like Dworkin's). It would be logical to assume that a new polar universe has been created, reached by Corwin's pattern. Once Merlin walks it, we should find out. Current Amber macro-geography would exist in three levels: First Level: Dworkin's primal Pattern. (Chaos, its original surroundings?) Second Level: Amber, the duplicate pattern, shadow, Chaos, Corwin's primal pattern. Third Level: Corwin's duplicate pattern, new Amber?, shadow, Chaos. Chaos may be discreet on all levels, or it may be contiguous, an advantage on Corwin's level, where access is severely restricted to those not of Chaos. All of the above is pure speculation and subject to revision upon publication of new books. A question about _The_Courts_of_Chaos_ (the last book in the first series). When Corwin was travelling to the Courts, he was accompanied by a raven, and met a tree named Ygg, from which he got a staff, which, when planted, began to grow anew. What was Zelazny doing with all this Norse symbology. The raven would be reminiscent of Odin's two, Hugin and Munin, and Ygg would be Yggdrasil, the world oak. What does this mean? The new Ygg would seem to support the theory that Corwin created a new universe (needing a new world tree). Greg Morrow s6vyje@irishmvs.bitnet(@wiscvm.wisc.edu) ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 86 17:10:24 GMT From: altunv!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Silva) Subject: Re: Trumping to Dworkin's apartment ahby@meccsd.UUCP (Shane P. McCarron) writes: >brad@altunv.UUCP (Brad Silva) writes: >>I think you are overlooking something, you cannot shift shadow >>WHILE YOU ARE IN AMBER. > > I got the impression that if you were good enough (read powerful > enough) you could manipulate shadow from within Amber. I just > assumed that Dworkin could do it... Sorry about that. When I wrote that I was in the process of re-reading the series and hadn't reached _The Hand of Oberon_ yet. As it turns out in the hand of Oberon, shadow walking from amber is possible because of the primal pattern, however it is extremely difficult (Corwin tried it once he found out it was possible, with limited success, towards the end of the book), and apparently even Oberon prefered trumps. BTW, I orginally thought Trumps were an Amber phenomenon, but it seems Trumps are a technology that Dworkin brought from the Courts of Chaos, as Trumps seem to work not only in Chaos and Amber, but in Corwin's new universe as well. Oh, and as another thought. Thinking back on the descriptions Zelazny used to describe a walk through shadow, it sounds like some change in scenery(sp?) is nessesary for the change. A quote from _The Guns of Avalon_: "Steady movement is more important than speed, much of the time. So long as there is a regular progression of stimuli to get your mental hooks into, there is room for lateral movement. Once this begins, its rate is a matter of discretion." To me it seems that the technique Corwin had been tought required some change scenery to make the change, and after using this method or several hundred years, Corwin had no reason to doubt it. Of course we find out later, when Brand is teleporting himself all over the place that this is not the only method (but, perhaps being crazy, Brand did not need any "mental hooks" :-). Brad Silva ...!ptfsa!gilbbs!altunv!brad ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 86 19:52:00 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Amber - Merlin Why didn't Merlin walk Corwin's Pattern when Fiona took him there? I think you have to discount his stated reason (had to get back for a test). This is more in the nature of an excuse. (Yes, I know he didn't give it to Fiona as an excuse.) There are two fairly plausible reasons. One is simple fear -- walking the Pattern after the Logrus may have been more difficult than for "ordinary" descendents of Oberon; how much worse would a third one be? Merlin was not, I think, prepared to take that risk at that point. Secondly, like his father, Merlin is very stubborn, and hates to be forced or tricked into anything. So when Fiona tries to trick him into walking the Pattern, he tricks her into thinking he can't. A secondary point here is that he would rather not have Fiona know that he is capable of the feat. I have little doubt that Merlin will get around to walking this Pattern sooner or later. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Oct 86 18:50:54 edt From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Amber and Star Travel >Let's say Merlin wants to travel to planet 4 of Proximia Centauri. >Let's say he knows what the terrain looks like, what the sun and >constallations look like, and shifts shadow until the >characteristics match exactly. Now, where, physically, is he? Nice question. To make it more concrete, let's say that one of Merlin's classmates (from our world) is headed there the hard way, by space ship, and Merlin wants to meet him. (So he must arrive at *our* Proxima IV.) How? Two possibilities suggest themselves. 1. Shadow-walk. Just as Corwin can choose to arrive in our world in France or the US, it is possible to choose to arrive on Proxima IV. 2. Walk to an earth-like shadow which is technologically a few centuries ahead of our own, take the commuter flight to Proxima, and shadow-walk to our Proxima. The second option suggests a slightly more modest view of what a shadow-walker can do, but brings up the question of whether a shadow is created by a walker or merely found in a more pressing form: What's involved in walking to a shadow with an arbitrarily high level of technology? Are most of the shadows we've seen (where technology would be possible) not advanced because of the limitations of the walkers' imaginations (or tastes) or because a walker would, in some sense, have to *create* the technology. Dani Zweig ------------------------------ Date: 13 Oct 86 22:20:13 GMT From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: nitpicking Amber question This contains spoiler of the original Amber series, but not of the (incomplete) second series. I recently reread all seven books to date, the first five in two sittings, but slowing down a bit on the last two. >seem to recall that Dara merely posed as Benedict's daughter to get >Corwin into trouble (and herself into a different kind of >trouble...). Have I forgotten this being turned around again >later? Yes, she really is Benedict's great-granddaughter -- her great-grandmother was the "hell-maid" Lintra, who led the force which Benedict had just defeated when Corwin encounteres him. She was *not* under Benedict's protection or even known to him in any way. This genealogy is revealed to Corwin when he visits Tir-na Nog'th, and is thus a bit suspect; but it fits. >Also, does Dara actually walk the Pattern (gaining general >shadow-walking ability), or merely pass through Shadow on the Black >Road? She does walk the Pattern, racing ahead of Corwin after the battle where Eric is killed, and announcing that "Amber will be destroyed" before teleporting out from the center of the Pattern. Her ability to walk the Pattern is the strongest bit of evidence supporting the claim that she is indeed a descendent of Benedict. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 86 14:39:25 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Shadow-shifting I think it said in COURTS OF CHAOS that it was possible to shift shadows in Amber....There was a psychological barrier against doing it, since Amber was supposed to be the absolute....Once Corwin knew that there was a higher level of absolute which was not Amber, he COULD shift shadows there. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Oct 86 0908-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #358 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 22 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 358 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony (3 msgs) & LeGuin & Trimble & Ace Doubles (2 msgs) & Star Trek Stories & Post Holocaust Stories (3 msgs) & Wolfman Stories (2 msgs) & Speciality Book Source ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Oct 86 13:35 EDT From: "J. Spencer Love" <JSLove@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA> To: mtgzy!ecl@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: RACE AGAINST TIME The copyright on this (1973) indicates that this book is a re-release. It hasn't been around in the bookstores between the first release and this one. I have learned the hard way not to buy this author's re-released obscure books without getting a chance to read them first. I thought that this was one of his worst efforts. Although he has written other turkeys, he is clearly capable of better. Piers is one of my favorite authors, and I am sure you could find titles you could recommend among his recent work. I think the analysis of this book as racist is flawed. Certainly, if you prefer simplistic political analyses you should avoid other books where he grinds political axes, such as his Bio of a Space Tyrant series, which is much better written but could be extremely offensive. I interpreted the message of RACE AGAINST TIME as being "diversity is necessary to human vitality", not "racial purity is necessary to species vitality." While overreaction to racism real and imagined is currently in vogue, an examination of other clues in the book supports my position. The society in which the protagonists find themselves has an extreme emphasis on conformity. People who don't have a skin color which is "average enough" buy cosmetics in order to fit in better and not look abnormal. The random citizens they encounter while running away seem quite xenophobic. The culture has quite advanced technology but little tolerance for cultural differences. The boundaries that the protagonists escape from turn out to be a sort of protective custody from the surrounding culture. They are preserving ancient ways of life as well as isolated genetic strains. It is plausible that the surrounding has thrown away cultural diversity. Does it matter that the old art forms are still in the (computerized) library if no one is interested in them? The ancient enclaves are a logical extension of saving the Snail Darter, an ecological cause and for a while at least, politically correct. Is this a reasonable extrapolation of current trends? If the solar system continues to be shrunk by communication and transportation technology, perhaps solar parochialism will become widespread. Unless we can colonize other solar systems, re-enacting significant cultural barriers, or encounter alien species, with permanently different points of view, cosmopolitan cultural convergence is plausible. Biological homogeneity might follow, but it is a consequence, not a cause. Applying Mendelian genetics to human societies is simplistic at best, but as a metaphor for conformity it seems well chosen for the evident target age group. Junior High School biology spent some time discussing inbreeding, pure strains and hybrid vigor, with respect to rats, fruit flies and plants. Dangerous thoughts? Probably. I think that people should be exposed to dangerous thoughts. Some of their seductiveness comes from novelty. In a weakened form, such presentation is more like a vaccine. Spencer <JSL@MIT-Multics.ARPA> ------------------------------ Date: 20 Oct 86 14:58:46 GMT From: rabbit1!dml@caip.rutgers.edu (David Langdon) Subject: Re: Piers Anthony > any body out there a Piers Anthony fan?? Yes with the caveat that I don't like some of his stuff. The stuff I do like is: 1) Bio of a Space Tyrant series - where's the last part??? 2) Blue Adept series and some of his standalone novels. David Langdon Rabbit Software Corp. 7 Great Valley Parkway East Malvern PA 19355 (215) 647-0440 ...!ihnp4!{cbmvax,cuuxb}!hutch!dml ...!psuvax1!burdvax!hutch!dml ------------------------------ Date: 21 Oct 86 03:06:51 GMT From: 6080626@PUCC.BITNET (Adam Barr) Subject: Re: Piers Anthony dml@rabbit1.UUCP (David Langdon) writes: >> any body out there a Piers Anthony fan?? >Yes with the caveat that I don't like some of his stuff. The stuff >I do like is: > >1) Bio of a Space Tyrant series - where's the last part??? >2) Blue Adept series > >and some of his standalone novels. The annoying thing about Piers Anthony is that he can occasionally have a really good imagination. The basic plots for Xanth, the Phaze/Proton books, the Bio of a Space Tyrant, and the Incarnations of Immortality are are great stuff. In the hands of even a semi-competent writer, they might turn out to be great series'. Upon reading the first book of each series, I thought, "Boy, this is great. I can't wait for the second book." When I read the second book, I usually thought "Hmmm, I wonder when the third book will come out". After the third book I would occasionally wonder about the fourth book, and might read it if it happened to fall into my lap when I had some time to spare. Why this decline in interest? The ideas were still there, but.... Let's face it folks, Piers Anthony is a lousy writer. The man just cannot write. His descriptions, his dialogue, his narrative flow (I'm not a literary critic, SORRY), his etc., all sound like they were written by high school students (or maybe by a computer, which could explain his prodigious output). In the rush to put all his ideas on paper and write four books a year or whatever, something had to go, and what went was any attempt at quality on his part. But is he content to realize that he can't write for his life, and go on spewing out books with great ideas and lousy writing? No, he has to write those sickening 30 page Author's Comments in the back of each book, telling us all how many good writers all suffer from "writer's block", but he just regards that as unprofessional, and never has that problem (funny he never noticed the obvious reason). Plus he rambles on about how great he is, and how much mail he got from his legions of fans, and what cutesy title he has thought up for the next Xanth book, and so on ad infinitum/nauseum. Gaaaaah. It gets really sickening after a while. I used to like his books, but then I sat back and realized just how bad they were, and I vowed "never again!". And if I never found out how Hope Hubris came to rule the universe, that's just the way it will have to be. To recap: Piers Anthony is a bad writer. Piers Anthony is to science-fiction/fantasy writing as Kate Bush is to pop music. Thank you. Adam Barr Princeton University BITNET: 6080626@PUCC UUCP:...allegra!psuvax1!PUCC.BITNET!6080626 ------------------------------ Date: 19 Oct 86 01:38:17 GMT From: im4u!jsq@caip.rutgers.edu (John Quarterman) Subject: Re: ansible From: "Art Evans" <Evans@TL-20B.ARPA> >The ansible appears in several of LeGuin's novels. I remember it >in "Rocannon's World", "The Word for World is Forest" and "Left >Hand of Darkness", and no doubt it appears elsewhere in her work. In order of when the novels were written, it appears first in Rocannon's World, which takes place quite a bit after The Dispossessed. >Although the Hainish novels form a more or less consistent >universe, I have the strong feeling that there are contradictions. >In "The Dispossessed" earth is a ruined world, but I have the >strong memory that it is OK in another novel. Is anyone's memory >better than mine? Towards the end of The Dispossessed there is a scene with Shevek and the Terran Ambassador. She makes it quite clear that Terrans only appear among species who travel among the stars because the Hainish rescued them from what they had done to their world. (I believe there is a statement almost as clear in The Word for World is Forest.) This had happened quite recently at the time of The Dispossessed; by the time of Rocannon's World, the recovery is more complete, and the Earth appears more normal, at least in the small glimpse shown in that story. (Of course, since the short story on which Rocannon's World is based was LeGuin's first published story, it is also possible she didn't mention that part of Terran history in that novel simply because she hadn't invented it yet....) John Quarterman UUCP:{gatech,harvard,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq ARPA Internet and CSNET: jsq@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU jsq@sally.UTEXAS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 86 17:37:13 GMT From: hrcca!jean@caip.rutgers.edu (Jean Airey) Subject: Re: Upcoming from Donning/Starblaze > ON THE GOOD SHIP ENTERPRISE by Bjo Trimble. An uncensored, > unauthorized Star Trek Memoir by the mother hen of Star Trek > Fandom. Trade Paper. Isn't this a reprint? Seems to me I bought a copy several years ago. It was also not terribly interesting. Or is this some kind of a revision? Jean Airey: US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506 ihnp4!hrcca!jean ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 86 00:58:00 GMT From: mic!d25001@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: 'Ace' books >I was sorting through a box or three of old SF books I picked up at >a fayre and found 6 strange double sided "Two in One" books >published by Ace. They are in a back-to-back format, ie. one is >logical upsidedown to the other, and they both work inwards (!). > >I recognise about 8 of the titles from various anthologies and >novella compilations. Was this the origin of the novella, or just >one publishers format? This was the common format of Ace books during the 1950's and early 1960's. It was not restricted to the SF line; westerns and mysteries also appeared in this format. Many of those 'novellas' had originally appeared in the old pulp magazines as 'lead novels'. Some of _those_ pre-date Ace by some ten years, but I am not sure that even they are the 'origin' of that length story. Carrington Dixon UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!mic!d25001 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 86 11:44:47 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Ace Doubles By today's inflated standards, many of the stories that were originally half of an Ace Double would qualify as novels rather than novellas; the early doubles had fairly dense type (400-500 words/page) and were fairly thick (each half often 144 or 160 pages -> 62-80K words---novellas are cut off around 40K for both Hugo and Nebula awards, while 60K was considered a reasonable SF book in the 50's and 60's). In fact, many halves of early Ace Doubles were subsequently published as books, e.g. one of the earlier Retief collections, several Brunner novels (although some were cut to fit into a standard double and have been republished uncut---a move that Brunner, who normally hates being cut, is ambivalent about in view of his improvement as a writer since those books). ------------------------------ Date: 19 Oct 86 01:31:39 GMT From: navajo!bothner@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Kirk/Spock love stories At Westercon I picked up a flyer about Star Trek fanzines in general, and Kirk/Spock 'zines in particular. The flyer lists eight publishers of K/S, as well as addresses for other 'zines, and a justification for the premise of love/sex/romance between Kirk and Spock. Out of curiosity, I also picked up one of the fanzines (Naked Times #2). It was moderately expensive; on the other hand you get 165 big pages (in this case) of stories, artwork and poetry. I can't say too much about the quality: they seemed reasonably well put together, and the quality of the fiction & artwork (what little I have read) doesn't seem to be much worse or better than more standard sf fanzines - i.e. probably highly variable. It seems most of the people involved in K/S fandom are straight women. To inquire, I suggest a SASE (with age statement) to: Naked Times, c/o Pon Farr Press, P.O. Box 1323, Poway CA 92064. If that doesn't produce results, I can send a copy of my flyer. Per Bothner bothner@pescadero.stanford.edu ...!decwrl!glacier!navajo!bothner Computer Science Dept. Stanford University Stanford CA 94305 ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 86 18:54:32 GMT From: mmintl!warrenm@caip.rutgers.edu (Warren McAllister) Subject: Re: Brin I bought a paperback copy of 'The Postman' by David Brin last weekend. I am quite impressed so far, not being a fan of Brin so far (I hated Startide Rising :-) ) But on the other hand, I generally like just about anything that's 'Post-Holocaust' - can anyone recommend their favourites in this category ? Warren McAllister ------------------------------ Date: 19 Oct 86 08:10:31 GMT From: well!mandel@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas F. Mandel) Subject: Re: Brin warrenm@mmintl.UUCP (Warren McAllister) writes: >But on the other hand, I generally like just about anything that's >'Post-Holocaust' - can anyone recommend their favourites in this >category ? I realize it has been mentioned many times, but Walter Miller's _A Cantible for Leibowitz_ remains, in my view, the definitive post-holocaust allegorical novel. Tom Mandel ARPA: mandel@sri-kl.arpa UUCP: {ptsfa,hplabs,lll-crg,hoptoad,apple}!well!mandel ------------------------------ Date: 21 Oct 86 22:43:54 GMT From: petsd!cjh@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Henrich) Subject: Post-Holocaust Novels/Stories (was Re: Brin) Walter Miller, _A Canticle for Leibowitz_, published in the 50s, is the first one that comes to my mind. Chelsea Quinn Yarbro, _False Dawn_: this is hardly my favorite; in fact it seemed so gloomy that I stopped reading it. But it is well written. Several of John Wyndham's novels, esp. _Day of the Triffids_, are post-holocaust stories; the holocausts are not generally nuclear wars. (But in _Rebirth_, it is.) Kim Stanley Robinson, _The Wild Shore_, is good. Regards, Christopher J. Henrich UUCP: ...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh US Mail: MS 313; Concurrent Computer Corporation; 106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 Phone: (201) 758-7288 ------------------------------ Date: 20 Oct 86 03:56:22 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Wolfman story request >Does anyone have a citation (Title, author, and preferably >anthology where it can be found) for the "original" wolfman >story? I am not sure if you are asking about the werewolf Laurence Talbot from the Universal series (he is generally the only werewolf referred to as "the wolfman") or about werewolves in general. Talbot was an original creation for the series. It is not based on a pre-existing story. In fact, there are very few werewolves in general in popular literature. There were several vampire stories and novels before the 20th century. There was only one classic werewolf novel and that was written in 1933, 20 years after the first werewolf film (at least the first I know of). That novel, incidentally, was THE WEREWOLF OF PARIS by Guy Endore. It is fairly good, and was the basis for the film THE CURSE OF THE WEREWOLF though the film was not very faithful to the book. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 20 Oct 86 15:20:58 GMT From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Wolfman story request >Does anyone have a citation (Title, author, and preferably >anthology where it can be found) for the "original" wolfman >story? How about Sigm,... Siegm,.. S. Freud's "The Wolf Man", a study of one of his patients who, of course, thought he was one? nike!orion!kaufman ------------------------------ Date: 20 Oct 86 13:45:50 GMT From: hrcca!jean@caip.rutgers.edu (Jean Airey) Subject: Speciality Book Source A source for interesting books (including the Blake's 7 program guide) is: Bundles From Britain Box 34112 Chicago, IL 60634 Their current catalog says that they have material on "The Avengers", "Secret Agent," "The Prisoner" "The Professionals", "The Invaders", "Thunder Birds", "Dempsey and Makepeace," as well as British publications on "Doctor Who," "Blake's 7" and 007. They say to sent "your want lists and a SASE". Their "regular" catalog lists mostly DW, B7, UNCLE and 007 material. I've ordered from them without any problem. Jean Airey: US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506 ihnp4!hrcca!jean ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Oct 86 0900-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #359 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 27 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 359 Today's Topics: Books - Adams (2 msgs) & Brin & Chalker & Clancy & Eddings & Zahn & Post Holocost Stories & Theme Request & Forwarded Queries from GEnie ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Oct 86 15:13:12 GMT From: inuxd!jody@rutgers.rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross) Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide...question I need some information on getting permision from Douglas Adams. What I am doning (I hope) is a very short video, two minute to five minutes, based on the concepts in -Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy__. I don't plan to use any of the charaters in the video nor do I imply that they are there. All I am using is some of Mr. Adams' ideas for the bases of the video. I know I need a release from Mr. Adams and (possibly) his publisher, but I don't know how to go about it. If any one has any information please mail it to me (I don't think the net. wants it). Thanks in advance. jody ps: I don't plan to make any money on this project, but I would like to show it to the public without fear of being sued. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Oct 86 18:01:09 GMT From: uwmacc!demillo@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide...question jody@inuxd.UUCP (JoLinda Ross) writes: >I know I need a release from Mr. Adams and (possibly) his >publisher, but I don't know how to go about it. If any one has any >information please mail it to me (I don't think the net. wants it). >Thanks in advance. Douglas Adams can be reached on "The Source," a commercial computer network. I am afraid I do not know his Source address, but presumably you can ask someone once you are on the net. Amusing note: from what I understand, it takes a lot of convincing on Adams' part to prove to other Source Denzins that he really *is* THE Douglas Adams. ("Honestly, I am me!"..."Sure you are, sure you are...") Apparently, he finally gave up trying...if someone believes him, great...otherwise... who cares? Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center usenet: {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,topaz,decvax}!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ARPA: demillo@unix.macc.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 21 Oct 86 21:22:01 GMT From: uwmacc!demillo@caip.rutgers.edu (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: Brin warrenm@mmintl.UUCP (Warren McAllister) writes: >I bought a paperback copy of 'The Postman' by David Brin >last weekend. > >I amm quite impressed so far, not being a fan of Brin >so far (I hated Startide Rising :-) ) Yea...I have a problem with Brin myself. I bought both Startide Rising and Sundiver. (I got them at a used bookstore, so no loss...) I was very disappointed. Both novels had, what I thought, was an excellent basis for a story...I was especially interested in Sundiver, since I was planning on writing a story based on that very idea -- imagine my surprise! ;-) Everything else, however, was a complete disappointment. Brin writes for all the world like a high school student. (I even ran a section of his text through one of these "star analysis" algorithms to determine it's reading level...it came out between 9th and 10th grade skill level.) The other thing that bothered me is that Brin seemed to have only the most superficial knowledge of: politics, inter-personal relationships, science, environmental issues, etc. He seemed *extremely* sexist, and over-simplified world politics to the point where it was almost comical. ...I dunno, even at $0.50/book, maybe I did get jipped... Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center usenet: {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,topaz,decvax}!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ARPA: demillo@unix.macc.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 26 Oct 86 01:43:43 GMT From: sherman@f.word.cs.cmu.edu (Andrew Sherman) Subject: Children of Flux and Anchor Children of Flux and Anchor, book five of the Soul Rider Trilogy :-) by Jack Chalker has just come out. It takes place about 40 years after the great flux war. Not a really great read but if you liked the rest of the series it is probably worth picking up. If you haven't read the series yet, give it a try. sherman@f.word.cs.cmu.edu uw-beaver!f.word.cs.cmu.edu!sherman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 86 15:23 EDT From: Robert D. Houk <Houk@RIVERSIDE.SCRC.Symbolics.COM> Subject: Re: "Science fiction" From: CS.VANSICKLE@R20.UTEXAS.EDU >> [Tom Clancy] was clearly using the term in a new and unfortunate >> sense. Some people say "that's science fiction" when they mean >> "that's impossible". . . . he has fallen for the Harper's >> propaganda that all science fiction is bad, he feels that he has >> to call his works something else. I agree that it is unfortunate that some authors are afraid to let their work be labeled science fiction, and that some people consider the term to be a pejorative. It may be that Clancy was using the term "science fiction" as you suggest, but it was also clear in the interview that all the military technology described in Red Storm exists today - that the novel does not extrapolate the technology at all and the story does not assume any breakthroughs or new developments. This is in contrast to the typical science fiction story, which starts by assuming some new development or discovery and then examines the implications. My understanding (based only on Red October and The Hunt thereof, I haven't picked up his new book yet) would be that it is not Science Fiction, it is Fiction/Drama/Adventure, etc. (my interpretation of classes of literature). Maybe the Russian sub's propulsion system is "science fiction" in that it doesn't exist (does anybody know about this? Subs are not my forte!), and so his book is technological = science fiction? >Since the book was originally reviewed on this board, I thought it >interesting to find out that the technology described is current. What I found really interesting to speculate about is, given what he writes (e.g., top speed for Nuke Subs as 35Kts (? something in that range), and what is "known" (e.g, 90+Kts - or so I am told is available in unclassified sources if you know where to look), to extrapolate the other technologies. Now maybe that is Science Fiction . . . Robert D. Houk Symbolics ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 86 00:09:47 GMT From: msudoc!lawitzke@rutgers.rutgers.edu (John Lawitzke) Subject: Belgariad by David Eddings I recently finished reading The Belgariad by David Eddings and would like to highly recommend it to anyone who has the time to read it. The Belgariad consists of five books: Pawn of Prophecy, Queen of Sorcery, Magician's Gambit, Castle of Wizardry, and Enchanter's End Game. The story is about a boy named Garion. He grew up on a farm and is about 12 years old when the story begins. As the story progresses it turns out that is is the sole hope for the survival of mankind. I can't say anymore without revealing the story, but I found it to be very compelling reading. John H. Lawitzke Division of Engineering Research 364 Engineering Bd. Michigan State University E. Lansing, MI, 48824 Office: (517) 355-3769 Home: (517) 332-3610 UUCP ...ihnp4!msudoc!lawitzke ------------------------------ Date: 23 Oct 86 14:01:45 PDT (Thursday) From: Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM Subject: Review of "The Backlash Mission" "The Backlash Mision" is the sequal to "The Blackcollar" by Timothy Zahn. Like Cobra, these focuses on superhuman warriors. But instead of using mechanical means, in this universe, chemicals give the warriors increase reflexs and other things. The flavor of the "The Backlash Mision" is much the same as "The Blackcollar". Lots of complex plots, fast action, and generaly a "good excape from daily life" story. This is not a great book in terms of hidden meanings, or a message. But it is great fun. The story moves along quickly. If you liked "The Blackcollar" you'll enjoy this. One side comment. The tittle page reads "Blackcollar: "The Backlash Mission". Zahn may be planing to put one of these out every six months or so. ***slight spoiler, summary of what's on the back of the book*** Backlash, a secret drug, turned ordinay soldiers into Blackcollars. But the drug has been used up, and a commando team heads to Earth to try and find the formula. One possible spot is the Aegis Mountain, an impregnable fortress that the Ryqril had never cracked. Could the commando team survive long enough to get the formula? Have a good day. Henry III ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 86 9:43:49 EDT From: "Daniel P. Dern" <ddern@ccb.bbn.com> Subject: post-holocostia I agree that "Canticle for Leibowitz" is the definitive post-holocaust novel; my favorite is John Crowley's "Engine Summer." And let's not forget "Davy", by Edgar Pangborn. Daniel Dern ddern@ccb.bbn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 86 14:34 EDT From: <MANAGER%SMITH.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> (Mary Malmros) Subject: Comments on diversity, and a theme request >> Should we question the value of the works of Hemmingway or >> Dylan Thomas because they were alcoholics? Oscar Wilde because he >> was a homosexual? Lewis Carroll because he was a pedophile? The >> greatest writers of all time were great because their flawed >> personalities allowed them to look at the world in a way we >> "normal" people can't imagine. > >I can't let this pass. What makes you think that being a >homosexual means you have a flawed personality? Or that you're not >normal, since you seem to be implying that "normal" means "correct" >rather than "what the majority does." I'll admit that homosexuals >are in the minority. So are Jews. Does that mean we're not >normal? Thank you, Evelyn Leeper! It needed to be said. While I'm on the subject, it seems to me that some of the best science fiction I've read has been by or about gay people (the works of John Varley and Elizabeth Lynn come to mind). Does anyone else have any suggestions? Mary Malmros Center for Academic Computing Smith College Northampton, MA 01060 MANAGER@SMITH (BITNET) ------------------------------ From: jmturn%ringwld.UUCP@CCA.CCA.COM Date: Saturday, 18 Oct 1986 02:54-EDT Subject: Forwarded story searchs from GEnie The following are story searchs from the GE consumer network, have fun... [Moderator's Note: Replies to any of these searches should be sent to jmturn%ringwld@cca.cca.com and **NOT** to sf-lovers@rutgers] ***** Category 9, Topic 3 Message 1 Sat Sep 20, 1986 BIGTONY [TonyD] at 22:02 EDT A man visits a scientist and the scientist tells him he's been communicating with martian scientists. The scientists on both sides were surprised by the contact since mars knew earth wouldn't have life for centuries and earth knew mars had died centuries ago. They finally realized that they were communicating across time as well as space. The scientist told his visitor that he would be sent to mars to track down and defeat the first man the scientist had so sent. This first man had turned out to be an earth criminal and was now a villian on mars. The scientist also said that only his mind would be sent and would inhabit the body of a waiting martian. When the earthman arrives, he discovers he's lying down and wearing a turban. The martian who's supposed to guide him, shows up after he gets attacked by a 'bird' and the guide doesn't know about it but the 'turban' unrolls to form a shield against such 'birds'. As soon as he gets into town, his quarry challenges him and defeats him, using the sawlike edge of his sword to slice into the new man's side (the same way the new guy cut off the head of the 'bird' when it was embedded in his side), all edged martian weapons are built that way. Martian customs dictate that once defeated, a person cannot challenge the one who defeated him. Later, when the wound caused by the 'bird' is discovered, the new guy is told that the blood loss changes things: since he should have been allowed to recuperate, the duel doesn't count. At one point he is sentenced to life imprisonment in a mine where the powder that makes glowglobes glow is mined and the globes are put together. The spigots that dispense the powder leak powder that burns the hands of the workers. Someone helps our hero to escape across the desert, each of them using long, telestoping stilts fastened to their feet to allow them to walk across the sand without sinking and a long pole so they can get up on them. While crossing the desert a giant 'pterodactyl' attacks them and our hero falls down and swings his pole at it. When it comes after him it grabs onto the pole like it thinks it's a worm and pulls him onto his feet by it. Also during his travels, our hero is brought to a 'swamp' to meet the daughter of the exiled leader of mars and learns that on mars you eat with your dagger. At the end of his adventure he learns that that although the current leader and the exiled one are political enemies, they are friends and they swapped daughters so that the exiled leader's daughter would be able to live as a princess. At one point our hero's skin and hair are dyed to that he can masquerade as a member of the martian "brown race' and infiltrate the enemy camp but his disguise was betrayed and a solution that removes the dyes was thrown on him. ****** Category 9, Topic 3 Message 2 Mon Oct 13, 1986 NUMBER6 [phaedrus] at 12:12 EDT sounds kinda Bradbury-ish, but I have no idea... Anyone ever read this one: there is a Man (note: capitol M in Man) named Kor. He has studied all sorts of mental exercises, etc, and now deserves the title Man. He is also known as "the Scarlet Sage". the common people of the planet live like peasants under the rule of some alien race. The aliens have a machine called an extrapolator which predicts the future, but phrases itself cryptically: "the scarlet sage will die undead, pots and pans depart instead". Kor (of course) must defeat the aliens, and does so by astral projection somewhere. I don't know. I was about 12 when i read it, an would REALLY like to find it again. Any clues? Oh, and Kor had a girlfriend: the Lady Soma (an allusion to sleep?) ****** Category 9, Topic 3 Message 3 Fri Oct 17, 1986 C.STERRITT at 20:11 EDT Sorry to bring a (possibly) non-SF story into the search, but I'd LOVE to find and *FINISH READING* the following story, which I discussed part of in a short story class I had to drop: There is a young woman who writes short stories. Her father, getting on in years, wants her to write him a story, and so she writes one about a young man who is addicted to heroin-- but has lots of friends who are addicts, and writes a magazine (called Oh! Golden Horse!) about/for heroin addicts. The young man in the story has a mother who loves him so much that she gets into heroin herself. Plot twist -- there's this girl, see, who is against heroin. She meets the young man, reforms him to her cause from heroin (she has a magazine too, but I can't remember its title or purpose -- probably anti-drug.) But the new young couple can't abide the mother not being able to kick the habit, and so he (guess) moves out on his mother, and (as I recall) the storywithinastory ends. Then, the daughter (storyteller) and father discuss the story, and he asks her to rewrite it, and she does... but I never got to read that!!!! AArrgghh!!! PLEASE help a young man (me!), hopelessly addicted to storieswithinstories (unsuspecting youth, he callowly read Lem & Wolfe & others, and was thoroughly addicted before he knew it) to find this gem. I have no idea of the author (except I'm pretty sure she was a woman.) thanks in advance, even if you don't know, chris s. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Oct 86 0914-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #360 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 27 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 360 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Weapons Policies (7 msgs) & A Time Travel Query & Tucker Awards ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Oct 86 14:01:12 GMT From: jhunix!ins_acss@caip.rutgers.edu (C Sue Shambaugh) Subject: Re: Weapons policies I carried a mop around with me during most of the day of the Masquerade at ConFederation (a costume prop, and a potentially dangerous one at that) and no one even blinked. Certainly I could have left it in the car trunk after our rehearsal, but I didn't want to bother! As far as the polling goes: I like weapons, I like wearing them, I own more than a few, and I even know how to use a couple of them. However, I recognise that they are *NOT* toys, and I can understand the ConComs' regulating the behaviour of people who may not be stable or prudent. Or who may be drunk or stoned (at Cons, who knows). I once had a person (at a Halloween party, not a Con) grab one of my knives OUT OF ITS PEACE-BONDING and make "great horsy gaping grins" at me. I twisted his arm till he let go of it. Some people need this kind of treatment before they get the message: WEAPONS # TOYS! Sue S. JHUniversity ------------------------------ Date: 22 Oct 86 08:37 PDT From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM Subject: Weapons Policy The first absolutely-no-weapons con I went to was Aquacon in '73 in Ontario CA. I was wearing wooden-soled clogs and a hat, with a rather obvious "jeweled" hatpin.. I considered these weapons as far as riding the bus was concerned, but I was never asked to remove either. Hatpins are such a sterotypically feminine weapon, too. It was a pleasant con. Mundanes were not upset. I really detest hallway blaster fights. In some ways con weapon policy has stepped in to take the place of common sense some of us can leave behind in the excitement of a con. I could be quite happy attending a con where the rule was: 1) peacebonding (noticably fixing your weapon to its holder, thereby rendering it temporarily unusable), and 2) leave your weapons/'weaponlike objects' behind if you venture into Mundania, for YOUR OWN protection. As far as a heavy staff is concerned, I would have pulled it if it seemed that the bearer thereof was acting in an unsafe manner. I feel the same way towards umbrellas. Unfortunately, I cannot take umbrellas away from businesstypes having no concern for those walking/standing behind them. Marina Fournier Arpa: <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com> ------------------------------ Date: 22 Oct 86 13:04 EST From: JESUP RANDELL <JESUP@ge-crd.arpa> Subject: Weapons policies... Re: peace-bonding Peace bonding is tying a weapon into scabbard, holster, etc, so that it CANNOT be drawn OR pulled out without being untied. Re: seperate hotel sections If you possibly can when setting up a con, get the hotel to block a wing for you. It makes it easier to allow weapons (few/no mundanes), and also allows for more fun because you don't really have to worry about disturbing the mundanes. Re: SWAT teams Like I said, tell the local police BEFORE the con what's going on. Re: boskone The only really good thing about it are the parties. Re: SCA The SCAdians tend to carry large amounts of sharp steel, without peace bonds, and use it to practice, display, eat, carve tent stakes.... ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 86 01:08:58 GMT From: jacob@renoir.Berkeley.EDU (Jacob Butcher) Subject: Re: Weapons policies... JESUP@ge-crd.arpa writes: >Re: SCA > The SCAdians tend to carry large amounts of sharp steel, without >peace bonds, and use it to practice, display, eat, carve tent >stakes.... It is strictly against SCA policy to practice with live steel. Eating and carving tent stakes are what knives and axes are for; what's wrong with using them that way? And it seems silly not to display a weapon simply because it is usable. I realize that policy and practice are distinct; nonetheless, fighting (mock or otherwise) with real weapons in the SCA can and will result in expulsion. Personally, I'd just require the fight to progress until blood is drawn... jacob butcher ------------------------------ Date: 23 Oct 86 22:23:28 GMT From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: Re: Weapons and weapons policies at conventions Rich Kolker, the WACO Guru (WACO is the Washington Area Convention Organization - not some obscure insult) started this discussion with a fairly good view of Weapons Policies at Cons. I find myself in aggreement with what he said. However I would like to throw in an interesting variation on Weapons Policies that I was told of reciently. The policy is that of CAPRICON held in the Chicago area during February (I think, it conflicts with WISCON). TTheir Weapons policy can be said something like this; CAPRICON has no Weapons Policy On the other hand the Municipality of Chicago does. If you give us any grief, we will inform the police and let them decide if it is a weapon. For your enlightnement the following things are true of the laws of Chicago; 1. No projectile weapons. 2. No realistic models or replicas of projectile or other weapons of sufficient versimilitude that the typical person could be convinced that said model or replica is effecive. 3. No edged weapons except under the following constraints a. Blade length of 4 inches or less b. Blades must me single edged c. No spring loaded knives. For exact definitions consult the relavant portions of the Chicago Criminal Code. Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment ------------------------------ Date: 23 Oct 86 22:43:34 GMT From: dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low) Subject: Re: Weapons Policies (def. of bond, defense of Boskone vs. Subject: O'Brien) > I think that, using this definition, the Boskone Com were > well-founded in banning Mike O'Brien's wizard staff. ... It was a > beautiful piece of work, but I must agree with the Con-Com that > the staff could be USED as a weapon; not necessarily by Mike, but > maybe by some unscrupulous fen or mundane who happened to walk by > and decide to run off with the staff. The Boskone Concom is clearly rather sensitive about staffs as a year or so ago, I walked into the Staff room and found several Con-ops people and hotel security clustered around a woman on crutches. From what I overheard while I was there, she had been hit on the knee by someone showing off their staff fighting technique. I was not at the last Boskone but it appears that Boskones are getting rather rowdy. Danny Low ...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow ------------------------------ Date: 26 Oct 86 04:05:28 GMT From: umcp-cs!mangoe@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Weapons policies... >> The SCAdians tend to carry large amounts of sharp steel, >>without peace bonds, and use it to practice, display, eat, carve >>tent stakes.... > >It is strictly against SCA policy to practice with live steel. In Markland, there are steel *recreation* fighting forms. The weapons are *very* blunt, and there is rigorous qualification involved. Fights are rigorously choreographed. "Fratricidal" fighting involves padded weapons and is more akin to the SCAdian style. Perhaps this is the source of the confusion. C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: Fri 24 Oct 86 09:54:16-MDT From: William G. Martin <WMartin@SIMTEL20.ARPA> Subject: A Time Travel Query From time to time over the past years I have submitted a number of postings related to aspects of time travel which seem to have stimulated enjoyable discussions. Here is another one I hope will be as successful: [This one was inspired by the fantasy soap "Dark Shadows", which my local PBS station has been carrying for a number of months. One of the plot elements is that a person from the present is transported (essentially by magic) to 1795, and interacts with the ancestors of the characters in the present-day portion of the story. To get into more detail would involve spoilers and, besides, my query was merely stimulated by watching this, and does not involve "Dark Shadows" itself at all.] So, the query: if a person from the present is transported to a past time, back to a pre-electrical, pre-Industrial Revolution society, by some external means not under their control (that is, they are whisked off by surprise, without being able to prepare for it, and cannot move back and forth through time as they wish -- they are just grabbed from here&now and plunked smack dab into then&there), how could that person use their knowledge to support themselves, make themselves rich and/or famous, change or control the society they find themselves in, or otherwise be successful by some definiton? When this situation occurs in books or other media SF, as I recall, the authors seem to cheat. They give the main characters special knowledge, gimmicks, or talents -- Twain's "Connecticut Yankee" just happens to be carrying an almanac which gives him details about a solar eclipse that he uses to his advantage, and he is a skilled mechanic/millwright who singlehandedly can create the Industrial Revolution in Arthurian Britain. In one of the first-season Dr.Who episodes, the time travellers are dropped into Aztec culture, and it just so happens that one of the travelling companions is an expert in Aztec culture, having done extensive school work on the subject, and has the chronology and details of that culture all memorized, while the other [who was supposed to be an ordinary British male secondary-school teacher] turns out to be a skilled fighter and swordsman who can beat Aztec warriors (who have been trained for a lifetime) with their own weaponry! I recall a story about a State Policeman who was flung somehow into a primitive Norse society, and he happened to have an old Norwegian grandmother who had taught him language and folk tales and he fit right in after a day or two. He had the physical strength and fighting skills necessary to stay alive and to impress the natives enough so they would accept him. All of these examples seem to be contrived to permit the protagonists to succeed. But what about the ordinary man or woman of today, not equipped with a library or a photographic memory, skilled in some contemporary profession that is based in and relies upon the entire infrastructure of the 20th century, picked up with nothing but what is on his/her person and dumped into some pre-1800 society? Let's be generous and assume they end up somewhere where the language is close enough to what they speak so they can quickly learn to communicate effectively. I still can't think of much the ordinary computer programmer, salesman, academic, or bureaucrat could be capable of doing in that environment that would permit them to gain fame, fortune, or power. As for myself, I think I could invent gunpowder if I was plopped into a society where that was unknown -- let's see, sulfur can be found around volcanoes, charcoal is fairly simple to produce from wood, and potassium nitrate can be found in dungheaps [but what do you do with a dungheap to get potassium nitrate out of it? looks like a fairly unpleasant learning curve there... :-)]. So I can make black powder if I happen to end up in a forest around a volcano where people have barnyards. Sounds like a awfully specific set of requirements... And, if I don't blow my hands off grinding and corning the black powder, I still don't know enough metallurgy to make steel for firearms to use it. So I can make firecrackers or rockets, hopefully. Doesn't sound like the automatic route to world domination there... You could maybe set yourself up as a seer or Nostradamus-type character. Write down all the Henny Youngman one-liners you can remember and become the origin of them. Try and invent electricity by rubbing cats the wrong way or doing the kite-and-key bit. And so forth. None of these sound like a way to become rich and powerful; if you're lucky, you may stay alive. All in all, it seems to me that you'll end up a starving day laborer if you keep your mouth shut, or an inmate of a madhouse if you don't. Anyone out there have some thoughts on this subject? What would you, yourself, do if you suddenly woke up 2-300 years ago and figured that's where you'd be the rest of your life? (I mean aside from wishing you had kept that last dental appointment... :-) Speculatively, Will Martin wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA (on USENET try ...!seismo!wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA ) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 86 6:34:41 CDT From: Rich Zellich <zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA> Subject: Last chance to vote - TUCKER Awards final ballot - 1 Nov Subject: deadline T U C K E R A W A R D S A new award was instituted last year to recognize the activities of that heretofore unsung group of people known as SF convention partiers. Every award must, of course, have a nickname; the official nickname of the Award for Excellence in Science Fiction Convention Partying is the "Tucker". The first two years awards are sponsored and administered by the St. Louis in '88 Worldcon Bid Committee, and future awards will be administered by a related group. The awards will be nominated and voted on by members of Czarkon 4 (St. Louis' "adult relaxicon"), and the rest of SF party fandom via St. Louis in '88 bid parties and any fanzines or SF club newsletters willing to reprint the nomination form and/or this final ballot. There are 3 awards: 1 each for SF Professional (writer, editor, or dealer), SF Artist, and SF Fan. Couples or groups are eligible as a single nominee. Any SF convention partier over the age of 21 is eligible, but nominees this year must be willing to attend the presenting convention if they win. Winners are not eligible for re-nomination for a period of 5 years; losing nominees are eligible again the following year. The 1985 winners were: Special Grand Master Award: Wilson "Bob" Tucker SF Professional: Bob Cornett & Kevin Randle SF Artist: David Lee Anderson SF Fan: Glen Boettcher & Nancy Mildebrandt The design of the physical award is a full bottle of Beam's Choice bourbon mounted on a base; the base has a plaque with the year, award name, and the winner's name. An instant tradition was begun in 1985: the winners received their awards full, but took them home from the convention empty (many self- sacrificing volunteers helped empty the awards). To vote for the 1986 Tucker Awards, write a number from 1 to 4 in the spaces by the names in each category, 1 being your first choice and 4 being your last choice in EACH CATEGORY. After marking your ballot, detach it along the dotted line and mail it to TUCKER AWARDS, c/o St. Louis in '88, PO Box 1058, St. Louis, MO 63188. Photocopied, mimeographed, hand-printed, or typed equivalents of this ballot are acceptable. [*Network people may also send electronic facsimiles to "zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA"*] VOTING DEADLINE IS 1 NOVEMBER 1986 1986 TUCKER AWARD BALLOT PRO TUCKER: ____ Ed Bryant ____ Glen Cook ____ Andrew J. Offutt ____ Dick Spelman ARTIST TUCKER: ____ Keith Berdak ____ Joan Hanke-Woods ____ Dell Harris ____ Larry Tucker FAN TUCKER: ____ Chris Powell ____ David Rogan ____ Dick Spelman ____ Nancy Tucker ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Oct 86 0920-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #361 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 27 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 361 Today's Topics: Music - More SF in Music (16 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 10 Oct 86 22:42:08-PDT From: Lynn Gold <Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Some stuff missing from the compilation To: Galloway@B.ISI.EDU Allan Sherman On "My Son The Nut": Automation To "Fascination" -- about how his office is being automated Eight Foot Two, Solid Blue "Six transistors in each shoe/Has anybody seen my gal?" On "For Swingin' Livers Only": Shine On, Harvey Bloom "Up in the sky/You've been up in orbit since/ January, February, June and July...." Bobby "Boris" Pickett "Monster Mash" The entire album contains SF/horror material along the lines of the title cut. John Zacherle "Dinner With Drac" A rip-off of "Monster Mash" The Clovers "Love Potion #9" David Seville "Witch Doctor" Who could forget that magic cry of "Ooo eee, ooo ah ah, ting tang Walla-Walla bing-bang?" Sheb Wooley "The Purple People Eater" Nervus Norvus "The Fang" The Ran-Dells "Martian Hop" Soundtrack from "Rocky Horror Picture Show" "Time Warp" (and most of the rest of the soundtrack) Rose and the Arrangement (aka Possum) "The Cockroach That Ate Cincinnati" Dr. West's Medicine Show & Junk Band "The Eggplant That Ate Chicago" There are also many comedy records done with a science-fiction theme. If anyone is interested, I'll send out my compilation from the 300+ comedy records I have. Lynn P.S.--There's a C&W version of Heinlein's poem "Cool Green Hills of Earth" that was done sometime in the late 50's/early 60's, but I don't know who did it. It was (and may very well still be ) used as the closing theme song for a C&W radio program on WVHC-FM (88.7) on Long Island that aired Saturday mornings around 11am or noon called "Western Star." If anyone has info on this song, please send a msg to either me or to this list. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 10 Oct 1986 15:32:16-PDT From: lary%ssdevo.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: re: Canonical SF music list A few more entries for the Canonical SF music list: Billy Joel: "Miami 2017", from "Turnstiles", rerecorded for "Songs from the Attic" Incredible String Band, "I Was a Young Man (back in the 1960's)" from (I think) "The Hangman's Beautiful Daughter" Both of the previous songs are from the point of view of an old man reminiscing about his past/our future. The Incredible String Band recorded many songs in the mid-late 60's with SF/fantasy themes, mostly fantasy; the only other one I can recall right now is "Swift as the Wind", a fantasy about a child's imaginary hero-playmate who turns out to be not so imaginary. And, based on some of the other entries, "Tommy" by The Who ought to qualify..... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 86 19:50:28 PDT From: Jef Poskanzer <jef@lbl-rtsg.arpa> To: Galloway@b.isi.edu Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List Not bad. I can think of only three additions: 1) The Buggles' album _Age_of_Plastic_ is more or less SF-oriented. For instance, the title song contains the line "They send the Thought Police to put you under cardiac arrest." Shades of the Tick-Tock Man! 2) The Police, "Walking on the Moon". 3) And how could you have missed Neal Young's "After the Gold Rush"? Jef ------------------------------ Date: 13 Oct 86 00:05:40 GMT From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Some stuff missing from the compilation Regarding SF music: How about Benson, Arizona (the theme from Dark Star)? Definitely a CW tang to it. I remember calling up our local CW station and requesting it. They didn't have it. Sad. david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 14 October 1986 08:32:06 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson) To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List There's also the Duran Duran tune "Planet Earth", about the last man on Earth broadcasting to whoever will listen: "Look now, look all around/There's no sign of life./Voices without a sound/Can you hear me now?/ This is planet Earth/You're looking at planet Earth." Carlo Samson U09862%uicvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 15 October 1986 08:48:43 CDT From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson) Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List >Rush: >In 2112, the protagonist discovers an ancient guitar and winds up >battling the dictatorial priesthood. Red Barchetta on Moving >Pictures is similar, except the guitar is replaced by a car. See >also Cygnus X-1 (thought to be a black hole), Rivendell (Tolkien >reference), The Necromancer. See also The Body Electric and Red >Sector A from Grace Under Pressure Also "By-Tor & The Snow Dog", off _Fly By Night_. Carlo Samson U09862%uicvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 86 09:47:32 PDT (Wednesday) Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List From: Kupfer.osbunorth@Xerox.COM Here's an addition to the list: Spliff (a German group that most have probably never heard of): From the "Schwarz auf Weiss" album: Sirius (about a deep-sleep trip to Sirius), and Shuttle (in which the band plans to comandeer a shuttle and blast off for parts unknown). Mike Kupfer ARPA: Kupfer.osbunorth@Xerox.COM UUCP: ...!ucbvax!kupfer ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 86 16:16:25 GMT From: mink@cfa.harvard.edu (Doug Mink) Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List Ed Sanders (a member of the sixties Fugs) put out an album sometime in the early seventies called "Beer Cans on the Moon," which contains such gems as a song about a yodeling robot in love with Dolly Parton as well as some more topical songs. I have an album called "Dark Carnival," again dating form the early seventies which sets a number of Ray Bradbury stories from *The Illustrated Man* to music. Doug Mink {ihnp4|seismo}!harvard!cfa!mink mink@cfa.harvard.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 86 18:21:01 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List To be consistent with the rest of your list: Richard Strauss: Also Sprach Zarathustra (English: "Thus Spake Zarathustra") The first section, called "Sunrise", was used in 2001, both starting and ending. The entire tone poem was certainly not used. Gyorgi Ligetti: Atmospheres Used in 2001 in the scenes of the moon bus and the excavation around TMA-1. Gyorgi Ligetti (I think): Lux Aeterna ("Light Eternal") Used in 2001 and 2010 to describe the monolith(s). Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 86 14:47:26 GMT From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> > Richard Strauss: Also Sprach Zarathustra (English: "Thus Spake > Zarathustra") > Gyorgi Ligetti: Atmospheres > Gyorgi Ligetti (I think): Lux Aeterna ("Light Eternal") If *this* stuff counts, how about Strauss' "Blue Danube" (2001) Beethoven's 9th Symphony (Clockwork Orange) Most of Walter/Wendy Carlos' stuff (Tron, Clockwork Orange) Vangelis (or was his already mentioned?) Jerry Goldsmith, John Williams, (James?) Horner and the ever popular Alexander Courage Are you sure we ain't getting a little silly, here? nike!orion!kaufman ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 86 19:51:57 GMT From: hscfvax!south@caip.rutgers.edu (790689@NDSK@SSneddon) Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List From: Tom Galloway <GALLOWAY@B.ISI.EDU> >The Canonical SF Music List >[...] >Schilling, Peter: >Major Tom (Coming Home); perhaps a sequel to Bowie's Space Oddity? Not "perhaps" - Mr. Schilling said that it was intentionally created as "a sequel, and homage" to the original. (This was on MTV Music News a loooong time ago, when this song was still popular.) Also, the following entry... Men at Work: Helpless Automaton - a robot falling in love with a human, off "Business as Usual". G. T. Samson gts@hscfvax.UUCP gts@borax.lcs.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 86 17:26:10 GMT From: leadsv!sas@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List ELO: > The entire album Time is a science fiction story about a man from > 1981 who is taken into the 21st century, and all the aspects of > life there. > > A summary of the album:... > Rain Is Falling - Basically about wet weather, although some > mention again of our hero missing his lost love, and the 21st > century people offering him a way back. At this point in TIME, it appears that a conspiracy is beginning to form. Possibbly of some the scientist who are responsible for bringing our hero into the future and are having regrets. Of course the buerocrats (sp?) and leaders don't want this to happen. > From The End Of The World - Seems to be about how hard it is for > our hero to reach his distant love, and it's starting to get to > him. > > The Lights Go Down - Not a sf song, more about how he's got to get > back to his love in 1981. The music isn't spacey, so I suspect > this is supposed to be a song he wrote while longing for her. > > Here Is The News - a humor song on the turbulent world of 2095. A > few bad puns. The news stories mention a breakout from Satelite 2, and our hero crying out that he wants to go home. Perhaps he was imprisoned there (maybe in TICKET TO THE MOON) so as not to cause any more problems, and the conspiracy has broken him out. I've felt it might also imply that our hero is not the first person brought into the future. > 21St Century Man - song about how a man from 1981, for all his > clever adaptions, simply isn't cut out for life in the 21st > century and has to return and what he has to tell eveyone when he > gets back. > > Hold On Tight (The Coffee Song) - this was more designed for > commercial release (it was their main release from the album and > became the theme song for the Coffee Achievers commercials), but > carries the theme that, in the future world, or even out of it, > really anything is possible if you keep faith. This song has always given me the feeling of a triumphant battle theme. As the conspiracy fights to get control of the time portal and send our hero back, and giving the final message that though things seemed down before, by holding on to the hope of returning to 1981, they were able to send our hero home. And that any dream is possible. A very good album, with lots of interesting themes. And now to another artist who was left off the list: Gary Newman Artist responsible for CARS ('Here in my car') a couple of years ago. He had three albums out last I looked. The first albums songs where all 1 word titles and I beieve the title was STEEL. His second album is ARE FRIENDS ELECTRIC. The whole album is a SF theme, about a future society, very utalitarion. I not quite sure if its supposed to be a story, or a bunch of little stories. I don't remember anything about his third album. I read something once about him. He felt that he was more of a SF writer than a musician. And music was just the medium he was using at the current time. He hoped to write books in the future. Scott A. Stewart LMSC - Sunnyvale ihnp4!rtgvax!leadsv!sas teklds!cae780!leadsv!sas ------------------------------ Date: 18 Oct 86 06:42:26 GMT From: maps.cs.cmu.edu!yamauchi@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Cannonical SF Music List (Saga) The Canadian progressive/synth rock band Saga had a series of songs, spread out over four albums, which together tell a science fiction story: >From the Saga album: Chapter 4: Will It Be You? Chapter 6: Tired World >From the Images At Twilight album: Chapter 1: Images Chapter 3: It's Time >From the Silent Knight album: Chapter 2: Don't Be Late Chapter 7: Too Much To Lose >From the Worlds Apart album: Chapter 5: No Regrets Chapter 8: No Stranger If anyone else has heard these songs, I would be interested in finding out how you interpret them. Some of the events are clear: the interceptor battle in "Will It Be You?", the aftermath of a war in "No Regrets", the rushing toward an alien rendezvous in "Don't Be Late", and the launching of an attack in "Too Much To Lose." Some are less clear, like the preparation for some sort of journey or conflict in "It's TIme" and the foreshadowing of some sort of retaliation in "Tired World". However, I am not sure how "Images" and "No Stranger" fit into the story, or of whether the characters remain constant in all of the songs. Brian Yamauchi Carnegie-Mellon University Computer Science Department ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu BITNET: by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 18 Oct 86 01:54:11 GMT From: ism780c!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Smith) Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List How about DEVO? The albums "Q: Are we not men? A: We are DEVO" and "Duty Now For the Future" both are full of songs with SF themes. Consider the songs "Space Junk" and "Jocko Homo". "Freedom of Choice" and "New Traditionalists" also have some SFish material. Tim Smith USENET: sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim Compuserve: 72257,3706 Delphi or GEnie: mnementh ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 86 16:56:44 GMT From: ellis@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk (Sean Ellis) Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List Unfortunately, I missed the first article so I'm not sure what is meant by 'canonical', but I feel that there are two tracks at least which deserve to be included in SF orientated music. The first is '2112', by RUSH, a canadian band which is sadly not as widely recognized here as it should be. This deals with the overthrow of the opressive world government by those exiled to space by them. The second, also by Rush, is 'RED BARCHETTA'. This is set in a time where internal combustion engines are outlawed, and is based on the short story _A_NICE_MORNINGS_DRIVE_ by an author whose name escapes me. '2112' is on the album of the same name, and 'RED BARCHETTA' is on the album 'MOVING PICTURES'. Note that these songs come under the category of medium- heavy rock music, and are not electronic as may be expected. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Oct 86 13:52:44 GMT From: utai!johnt@caip.rutgers.edu (John Turner) Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List A song that you missed was "Urban Spaceman" by the bonzo dog band, from "The best of the Bonzos". Also on the "Gorilla" album was the song "There's a monster coming" which could also qualify. John Turner ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Oct 86 0935-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #362 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 27 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 362 Today's Topics: Television - Star Trek (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Oct 86 23:28:04 GMT From: rayssd!gmp@caip.rutgers.edu (Gregory M. Paris) Subject: STAR TREK: So Long Old Folks! > ST is the ideals. It is what it stands for. BUT: Kirk Spock et > al. are the media that put forth those ideals. As in ANY form of > art that is itself not life, the characters are a bit exaggerated > so that they may interact more completely (for the audiences > benefit). > > We have Spock: logical We have Bones: etc. (I doubt I need to list > what makes each > character unique :-) > > Now, my point is, do you honestly think that a new crew could > possibly interact together in such a way as to effectively put > forth those ideals? the characters of the original ST (which, i > admit, grew with time) worked together very well...their > eccentricities and oddities FORCED them to show the ideals that ST > stood for, and tried to overcome (like when Kirk wanted to blast > the Gorn, and Spock kept running off the regulations and talking > about war etc.) You've got to be kidding! Is that why you watch Star Trek, to see the petty moralizations, etc.? Gee, I started watching it because it was usually interesting, sometimes original, sometimes quite funny. Do you really think that Kirk and crew are the only interesting characters that can be thought up? Boy, are you dull! Stick to watching the reruns and I'm sure you'll be happy for the next thousand years. Until the show proves itself as terrible (which I'd bet on), I'm going to hope that it's as least as good as the original. If it's true that it's not going to network TV, maybe they'll be a little gutsy and target the show for a more limited audience (say, SF and ST fans?). Wouldn't that be nice. Greg Paris gmp@rayssd.RAY.COM rayssd!gmp ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 86 19:16:00 GMT From: MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET Subject: Taboos in Star Trek (was ST:The Next Gen.) demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) says: >Star Trek wasn't perfect, because it was on TV, but it did manage >to break a few taboos: an interracial kiss, a crew of women who >knew what they were doing, no one smoked cigarettes, etc. They did >stories about communism, homosexuality, incest (sortof), etc. Waitaminute. I remember most of these, but when did they do anything about homosexuality or incest? The former was rumored by a small clique of fans (the ones who conjectured a love affair between Kirk and Spock), but it was never specifically addressed. And when was incest brought up, even "sort of?" James D. Maloy The Pennsylvania State University Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL UUCP : {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq ------------------------------ Date: 19 Oct 86 22:49:26 GMT From: crash!adamsd@caip.rutgers.edu (Adams Douglas) Subject: Re: STAR TREK: The Next Generation dragheb@isis.UUCP (Darius "OPRDRT" Ragheb) writes: >I just do not think that the TV networks are any longer capable of >creating anything worthwhile: given what has been shown over the >last few years, it is no wonder I am skeptical about the >intelligence of the network planners! But you forget that ST:TNG is going to be distributed on INDEPENDENT stations. Granted, they still have to consider whether or not anyone will want to buy it but it seems to me they this will give them much better leeway in putting what they want in the show. Adams Douglas JPL/NASA AT&T:818-354-3076 ARPA:crash!adamsd@nosc.arpa UUCP:{akgua | hplabs!hp-sdd | sdcsvax | noscvax}!crash!adamsd ------------------------------ Date: 20 Oct 86 18:01:52 GMT From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: STAR TREK: The Next Generation dragheb@isis.UUCP (Darius "OPRDRT" Ragheb) writes: >Now, my point is, do you honestly think that a new crew could >possibly interact together in such a way as to effectively put forth >those ideals? Sure, why not? The ideals and characters both were created by one person that had, at least for the first two seasons, creative control. This same person, (Gene Roddenberry) will also have creative control of the new generation. Now, it could be that Gene wants to put foreward new ideals, talk about different things, go where no man has gone before. It may not be a carbon copy of the old Star Trek (I hope not!!) but I bet it'll be interesting. >I just do not think that the TV networks are any longer capable of >creating anything worthwhile: given what has been shown over the >last few years, it is no wonder I am skeptical about the >intelligence of the network planners! I suggest that you check out the substance of the deal between Paramount and Roddenberry before you pass judgement. The TV networks are *not involved*! The series will be sold to the same *independant* stations that are presently showing the old series! As a side issue, I think the quality of TV has actually improved over the last 5 years. Not, of course, in the area of science fiction, but that has always been poorly represented on the boob toob. (Remember Lost In Space?) Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: 21 Oct 86 21:40:57 GMT From: uwmacc!demillo@caip.rutgers.edu (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: Taboos in Star Trek (was ST:The Next Gen.) MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET writes: >demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) says: >>Star Trek wasn't perfect, because it was on TV, but it did manage >>to break a few taboos: an interracial kiss, a crew of women who >>knew what they were doing, no one smoked cigarettes, etc. They did >>stories about communism, homosexuality, incest (sortof), etc. > > Waitaminute. I remember most of these, but when did they do >anything about homosexuality or incest? The former was rumored by >a small clique of fans (the ones who conjectured a love affair >between Kirk and Spock), but it was never specifically addressed. >And when was incest brought up, even "sort of?" In "Metamorphasis," the relationship between the cloud-creature and Zephram was intended to be a parallel to a homosexual relationship, and the confusion that sometimes results when a person realizes he/she may experiencing feelings of love to a member of the same sex. A general realization that "love is love, and gay is ok." The incest ("sort of") is directed at "Miri." Although the censors never let it come out that way, that was to be the origin of the disease. Unfortunately, the NBC head-guys put the squeals on that one Real Quick. That was way too hot a topic for 1967 television. The only way the Metamorphasis analogy made it to the tube was that it was such a subtle connection, the censors and NBC never caught on... Both those pieces of information came from interviews between the various authors of the episodes and a "trekkie fanzine." Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center usenet: {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,topaz,decvax}!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ARPA: demillo@unix.macc.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 22 Oct 86 20:58:11 GMT From: nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser) Subject: Re: Metamorphasis (was Taboos) demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) writes: >In "Metamorphasis," the relationship between the cloud-creature and >Zephram was intended to be a parallel to a homosexual relationship, >and the confusion that sometimes results when a person realizes >he/she may experiencing feelings of love to a member of the same >sex. A general realization that "love is love, and gay is ok." > >Both those pieces of information came from interviews between the >various authors of the episodes and a "trekkie fanzine." If the author of the episode says this about what he intended when he wrote it, then we can't deny his intentions. However, this is never the impression I got from this episode. Assume for the moment that we don't have the author's statement about this. In this episode, Kirk and Spock "demonstrate" to Z that the companion was female, and that she loved him. Z initially took it to be distasteful that an alien creature could be in love with him. Later he accepted this, especially after the companion became human by merging with another woman present in the episode. If anything, the moral seems to be that even if something (someone) is different from you, it doesn't mean that loving them is wrong. This could easily be construed to mean racial or religious differences between people don't matter, and/or that new or different things should not be rejected just because of those differences. If you took this a step further, you might believe the author is implying that different types of "love" are ok, too. But the fact that it was a big deal to them that the companion was female and given this they also decided that she was in love with Z seems to indicate that gay love was not at all a consideration. (They didn't think about whether the companion was in love with Z until they realized she was female.) Clearly my interpretation, which I think is the immediate interpretation, differs with what we have been told is the author's intention. If others agree that this interpretation is the one most easily arrived at, then either this was not the author's intention after all, or the author did not make his/her intention at all clear (and in fact hid the gay love part behind a heterosexual love front). Nathan Glasser nathan@mit-eddie.uucp (usenet) nathan@xx.lcs.mit.edu (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 21 Oct 86 20:04:44 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: "Broadcast Standards" vs. CITY ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu (Matthew Belmonte) writes: >rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (Rick Kolker) writes: >> For example, Harlan Ellison's original "City on the Edge..." was >> a great story, but not great Star Trek. The final version, after >> rewrite was both. >What they did to "City on the Edge of Forever" was vandalise it in >order to make it "wholesome, family entertainment," suitable for >prime time broadcast by a major network during the 1960's. Don't hold it against Star Trek -- NBC's Department fo Broadcast Standards (a.k.a. the Censorship Board) would have axed COTEOF so hard it'd have splashed gore on ST:TWOK. Brandon S. Allbery Tridelta Industries, Inc. 7350 Corporate Blvd. Mentor, Ohio 44060 PHONE: +1 216 974 9210 HOME:(216) 781-6201 24 hrs. 6615 Center St. Apt. A1-105 Mentor, Ohio 44060-4101 ARPA: ncoast!allbery%case.CSNET@relay.cs.net UUCP: decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!tdi2!brandon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 86 10:14:41 EDT From: Joel B Levin <levin@cc2.bbn.com> Subject: Re: Star Trek - transporter use fluke!witters@caip.rutgers.edu (John Witters) writes ... >> Yeah, it occurred to me that with a working a transporter, life >> on Earth must resemble something out of a Niven story... Until I >> realized that transporters are probably hideously expensive, >> complex, and dangerous in the ST universe. . . . > >Would anyone care to compile statistics of transporter safety v.s. >automobile safety in the 20th century? ... I assume that >transporters would have to be at least as safe as automobiles or >they wouldn't be used. The benefits of transporting must be weighed against other means of doing the same thing, no against (say) cars and jeeps. I also assume they are very expensive and dangerous, and while they do not compare favorably with other means of ground transportation, and so are not in general use for that, they are presumably cheaper and much faster than some sort of shuttle (enough so to balance the possibly greater danger). JBL ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 86 10:47:17 EDT From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: STAR TREK and Harlan Ellison There's a lot of material of questionable accuracy about THE CITY ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER going out; here are a few things I'm reasonably sure of from reading both Ellison's account (after he'd cooled down) and others. First, drugs weren't central to the plot; they were a device which made the misbehavior which caused the subsequent disasters more plausible. (Yes, I think McCoy injecting himself with an overdose of a powerful drug is implausible. Aside from the major medical advances represented by tricorders, Feinbergers, etc., even doctors who are careless of their patients are likely to avoid equipment that represents a danger to \them/, or take precautions in its handling---when was the last time your dentist/dental-hygienist was in the room when X-raying your teeth?) Also, my \recollection/ is that it was a random crewman who was the pusher, not Scott. Second, Ellison wrote some things in the script that just weren't doable (given 1967 film technology) within budget, and wrote them out \himself/ when he was told just how impossible they were (e.g., a mile-long valley lined on both sides with 100-foot tall talking statues became that silly little rock dougnut). He did at least two substantial rewrites of the script himself. "Ellison-being-a-baby"- is an uncalled-for slander; he has more integrity than 99% of the people in the media businesses, but you probably have to fight harder to keep your integrity in Hollywood than a would-be actress has to fight to keep her virginity. Ellison is fond of quoting an aphorism he got from Charles Beaumont: "Hollywood is like climbing a mountain of manure to pick the one perfect rose on top---and finding when you get there that you've lost your sense of smell." His attitude hasn't helped him get along, but without it he might have been stuck writing pabulum like just about everyone else in Hollywood in the 60's. (Roddenberry certainly doesn't bear a grudge over this episode; he affirmed, without the expletives, Ellison's story of R being asked to rescue STARLOST after E had given up and walked out, turning them down, and when asked to recommend some other possible rescuer, suggesting E, -"who wouldn't have walked out if you hadn't ****ed him."-) Third, I would argue that all of the good that was in the final shooting script was Ellison's. Gerrold argues in THE WORLDS OF STAR TREK that the most successful/worthwhile episodes were those in which somebody, usually Kirk, has to make a major choice, e.g. saving either his ]home[ universe or the woman he loves (at the time of CotEoF, "the woman Kirk loves" still meant something). There were some alterations whose necessity I still don't see, the biggest being the removal of the legless veteran (I suppose that in 1967 some antsy censor (excuse me, Network Standards executive) might have thought that this was treasonous); this would have added significant depth to what started to turn into just another technical-problem story. And finally, a couple of facts about awards. The televised version won the Hugo for Best Dramatic Presentation of 1967. This is an award voted by SF fans based on what actually makes it to TV and movie screens; ST episodes were the \only/ things on the ballot that year, which is a measure of how little competition there was. The original script, in a blind judging, won something like "best episode in a serial drama", in awards voted by the scriptwriters guild. This was Ellison's second award from the guild; he also won for "Demon with a Glass Hand" and (later) for the STARLOST pilot. At that time, \nobody/ had won three guild awards and very few had won two; I don't know whether anyone else has accumulated three since then, but I suspect that Ellison would have more if he hadn't basically given up on TV a decade ago. NB: If you think my opinion of TV (or Ellison's) is too strong, read THE STARCROSSED by Ben Bova; it's a thin disguise of his experiences as technical advisor and would be even funnier if it weren't mostly true. CHip (Chip Hitchcock) ARPA: CJH@CCA.CCA.COM uu: {decvax!linus, seismo!harvard, cbosgd, caip!think}!cca!cjh ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Oct 86 0946-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #363 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 27 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 363 Today's Topics: Books - Zelazny (12 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Oct 86 05:26:48 GMT From: jhunix!ins_akaa@caip.rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee) Subject: Re: Amber and Star Travel (mostly star travel) >>Let's say Merlin wants to travel to planet 4 of Proximia >>Centauri.... Now, where, physically, is he? > >Nice question. To make it more concrete, let's say that one of >Merlin's classmates (from our world) is headed there the hard way, >by space ship, and Merlin wants to meet him. (So he must arrive at >*our* Proxima IV.) How? 1. Shadow-walk. Just as Corwin can >choose to arrive in our world in France or the US, it is possible >to choose to arrive on Proxima IV. 2. Walk to an earth-like >shadow which is technologically a few centuries ahead of our own, >take the commuter flight to Proxima, and shadow-walk to our >Proxima. 2) This will obviously work and get to the same Proxima that the classmate gets to. 1) Can he really arrive in "our" world in France or the US, or can he just arrive in a world identical to ours except that the entire universe is at an angle (relative to some reference universe) different from ours, thus putting France in one where US is on the other? If he can really travel through space in a single shadow, he'll arrive at the same place the classmate arrives. If the "travel-to-France" universe isn't the same as the "travel-to-US" one or the "travel-to-Proxima" one, then he can only arrive at a world identical except that the entire universe is shifted 4 light years over (again, relative to a reference) so that Proxima is where Earth is in this one. He cannot encounter the classmate, but only a counterpart identical except for being shifted 4 light years over and being in a different universe. OK. Now what happens if it's an Amberite instead of a classmate? Now the counterpart cannot exist. Oops. This, then doesn't work so well as a simulation of "travel". So 2) appears to be the only answer. (Perhaps it works using as an intermediate step a shadow where distances are distorted so one can walk with one step to its Proxima, so that returning to our universe would put the traveller on our Proxima.) Kenneth Arromdee BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa ------------------------------ Date: 21 Oct 1986 14:45 EDT (Tue) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> Subject: time Remember what Oberon says in Courts of Chaos: it is possible to exert one's will on the timestream of a shadow making time flow faster or slower as desired. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 86 15:18:53 edt From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (laurence) Subject: amber I think the principle of parsimony demands we suppose one of Dara's parents to be a Lord of Chaos. "Hellmaid" sounds like a denizen of a place very close to the Courts,if not a part of it. And how is it possible for her to live in the Courts now, if not by right? The description of Merlin's childhood implies to me his noble status both as a amberite and as a denizen of Chaos. In response to whoever wrote against the ideas of Law vs. Chaos in Zelazny: I agree that there is no reason to a priori suppose the whole deal to be a Law vs. Chaos struggle, but the argument about the lawful chaotics and the chaotic amberites only strengthens the point -- think about the symbol of the Tai ch'i -- Zelazny may be saying that law is reflected in chaos and vice versa. Laurence Raphael Brothers PS: to people who have sent me cc's and replies; I can't seem to send anywhere not directly on the arpanet, (I'm bouncing to get on it, so my mailer won't allow me to bounce again to get off it, say to bitnet) -- sorry about that. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Oct 86 12:30:41 GMT From: sfsup!ndj@caip.rutgers.edu (N.Justus) Subject: Amber -- sequence of books Hi! Several years ago I read the two volume set "The Chronicles of Amber". I have recently seen several Amber books in my local B-Dalton and, having read the discussions on the net, am thinking that more Amber books have been published since then. Could someone please e-mail me a complete listing of what books have been published, and include in that their proper order? My local bookstore doesn't exactly have the greatest selection of Science Fiction books in the known universe. Thanks much and Blessed Be, Nathan Justus AT&T Information Systems Summit, NJ UUCP: {allegra|apollo|decvax|bellcore|ihnp4|princeton|ucbvax}!attunix!ndj ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 86 12:09:08 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Re: Dara and Merlin Actually, Corwin went to Chaos from the place of the Pattern...maybe it was that time line which was slowed down, rather than Chaos's. st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 23 Oct 86 10:05:00 PDT (Thursday) From: Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM Subject: Amber - the bird flies through shadow Last night I reread "Nine Princes in Amber" and "Guns of Avalon". It doesn't appear that the six finguered guys really could walk shadow on their own. BUT after Corwin escapes the dungeon he sends two birds off with notes tied to their legs. A white one and a black one. The black one takes a note to Eric. The white one is to go to a shadow of Avalon, and later finds Corwin in one of the shadows of Avalon. So there are other creatures which can wander shadow! Henry III cate3.pa@xerox.com ------------------------------ Date: 23 Oct 1986 17:41 EDT (Thu) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> To: fai!ronc@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Amber - the six-fingered dudes You may recall that Corwin once refers to avoiding customs by "taking a shortcut through shadow" ------------------------------ Date: Thu 23 Oct 1986 12:19 CDT From: <CUSLB%IECMICC.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> Subject: Corwin of Amber "Steven R. Balzac" writes: > Also, I wouldn't be too sure that Corwin can't shape-shift by >this point. After all, when did Oberon first appear in the first >set of Amber books? When did we find that out.... Also, remember >Merlin's comments in Trumps: first, that walking the Logrus can >drive you temporarily insane, and second, much later (or earlier), >that Corwin was rumored to be loony when he left the Courts of >Chaos. Coincidence?? Looking back at The Courts of Chaos (the book), I find the following (Corwin speaking): "When all is done in that place [the Courts], and when Merlin has walked his Pattern and gone to clain his worlds, there is a journey that I must make. I must ride to the place where I planted the limb of old Ygg, visit the tree it has grown to. I must see what ahs become of the Pattern I drew to the sound of pigeons on the Champs-Elyse'es. If it leads me to another universe, as I now believe it will, i must go there, to see how I have wrought." This seems to tell me where Corwin is. He is off exploring the universe that he created. He could have walked the Logrus before he left. Merlin has certainly walked the Pattern. Steve Besalke ------------------------------ Date: 20 Oct 86 19:08:16 GMT From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Amber -- WITH MAJOR SPOILERS dml@loral.UUCP (Dave Lewis) writes: >franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >>I don't think the chronology is quite right here. I believe that >>Dworkin fathered Oberon *before* drawing the pattern. ... > > You may be right ... On the other hand, Dworkin strikes me as > one who would put power ahead of anything else -- like a typical > Lord of Chaos. I don't see what this has to do with it. Dworkin is/was a Lord of Chaos, regardless of when Oberon was born. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 86 22:36:22 GMT From: peora!joel@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: Amber - the bird flies through shadow Wasn't there also references to some of the princes setting up trade routes through shadow for the merchant fleets? I took this to mean that only the descentants of Oberon can 'blaze' a trail through shadow, but that other Amberites can move through shadow once they have been shown the way. Joel Upchurch @ CONCURRENT Computer Corporation Southern Development Center 2486 Sand Lake Road Orlando, Florida 32809 (305)850-1031 {decvax!ucf-cs, ihnp4!pesnta, vax135!petsd, akgua!codas}!peora!joel ------------------------------ Date: 23 Oct 86 23:49:18 GMT From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: Re: Amber: time-differential From: Mandel%pco@MULTICS.MIT.EDU >Frank Adams's question about the direction of time-differential >between Amber and Chaos is right on the nose. I think Zelazny >slipped here, getting the "sign" of the difference wrong. This is >comparable to Niven's slip on the directionin which midnight moves >around the earth, but it goes to the foundations of the story and >cannot be repaired in a paragraph or two in the next edition. it's >one of those goofs to which you have to shrug and say, "Oh, well, >suspension of disbelief just cracks at this point; I'll just have >to patch it and ignore the discontinuity." Who says time flow is constant within the Courts. I personally rather doubt it. Merlin & Ancestors were clearly raised within a section of the Courts where time is very fast. A Note on Merlin's family: Dara stated in the Courts of Chaos that the point of breeding Merlin was to produce a candidate for the throne of Amber that was descended from the two most favored claimants (Benedict and Corwin) AND be related to the first family of the Courts implying that Dara's father must have been someone VERY important in the Courts - possibly Swavil (sp) King of Chaos himself given that Merlin calls Suhuy "Uncle" and Meg Devlin , who shows definite Chaotic background, addressed him as Prince of Chaos. Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment ------------------------------ Date: 25 Oct 86 19:52:10 GMT From: knight@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Kevin Knight) Subject: AMBER Reflections on Amber ... (1) At the end of COC, Dara tells Corwin that he cost her "two of the most important persons" in her life. One is Borel, I am fairly sure. What about the other? Kwan, the rider who preceded Merlin? (2) In GOA, "Yes!" [Dara] interrupted. "I had forgotten, or thought he was just being mysterious or humoring me, but Brand said exactly the same thing a long while ago. What does it mean, though?" "Brand! When was Brand here?" [asked Corwin]. "Years ago," she said, "when I was just a little girl. He used to visit here often." Later, in SOU, Corwin recalls that "she said that Brand had visited Benedict in Avalon. 'Frequently' was the word she had used." However, Benedict never mentions anything about this to Corwin, and Corwin wonders if Dara was lying about this, as she lied about growing up in Benedict's Avalon. I know Brand went to Random and Llewella in his search for Martin, but ... Did Brand visit Avalon frequently, or not? (3) I don't think the question of whether Oberon was born before or after the Pattern can be settled. "Have you lost your taste to be a lord of the living void, a king of chaos?" says Dworkin to Corwin, whom he believes to be Oberon. This implies that Oberon once lived in Chaos. But, Dworkin also tells the tale of the creation of the Pattern, beginning with "the revelation of the Pattern in a jewel hung round the neck of a unicorn". If this was the first time Oberon saw the unicorn, Oberon's mother, then the Pattern would have been drawn before Oberon's birth. (4) In NPIA, Corwin is riding to Amber with his brother Random, when he realizes "that we had shared common parents, which I knew was not the case with me and Eric, me and Flora, me and Caine and Bleys and Fiona." But in SOU, Corwin's mother Faiella turns out to be Eric's mother also (and probably Caine's, though BOA denies this!) ... and since Faiella died giving birth to Deirdre, and Random is younger than Deirdre, Random's mother couldn't have been Faiella. I'd go with SOU on this. (5) As to the identity of Merlin's "Guardian Angel" in BOA, consider Ghostwheel! Pseudo-Vinta acts a lot like a computer, Ghost and Vinta are never in the same place together, and the Guardian Angel MUST protect Merlin at all costs ... well, there is a lot of negative evidence as well, so I think it's pretty far out. There is something to be said for the Unicorn interpretation as well. Recall when Vinta and Merlin are at the scene of a recent dogfight: "Then she did a strange thing. She knelt, leaned and sniffed the track." Strange for a person, not for a unicorn. (6) The key line in BOA, I think, is: "I'd become convinced that he was not the one -- that is, that he represented a threat to you--" Psuedo-Vinta says this to Merlin to explain why she shot at Luke. She does not elaborate, however. Who is "the one" who is NOT out to get Merlin?! (7) It is interesting that Caine had very similar relations with the hero Corwin and the traitor Brand. Brand approached Caine when his group was preparing to take the throne, but Caine responded by double-crossing Brand, forming the new Eric-Julian-Caine cabal. Much later, Corwin also approached Caine, asking that he let the Corwin-Bleys attack force across the sea. Caine double-crossed Corwin in the same way he double-crossed Brand. His actions resulted (directly or indirectly) in the long imprisonments of both Corwin and Brand. THEN when Corwin and Brand returned, Caine tried assassinating each of them, both attempts unsuccessful, but painful. If Corwin is aware that Rinaldo took Caine out, he should feel relieved. I'd trust the "assassin and arch-traitor" a lot further than I'd trust the "eavesdropper and double-crosser"! (But both are dead, of course.) (8) A quote on Dara, from the COC: "'You are of the royal house of Chaos?' [asked Corwin]. She smiled." I think this one is open for interpretation. Corwin jumps to the conclusion that he was part of a breeding project. Didn't Jesus smile when one of his disciples asked him if he was the Son of God? If Dara is of Chaos, Lintra is the only solution I see -- Lintra DID lop off Benedict's arm after all, so we've got to give her SOME credit! (9) Brand goes to a hell of a lot of trouble to put Corwin out of action (this is before NPIA). Fiona states that Brand saw bad omens about Corwin in Tir-na Nog'th. Brand wasted a lot of valuable time and energy to hunt down Corwin; meanwhile all of Amber was after him, and Fiona and Bleys finally got to him. Does anyone see any motivation outside of the Tir-na Nog'th omens? Responses welcome. Kevin Knight knight@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Oct 86 0820-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #364 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 28 Oct 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 364 Today's Topics: Television - Battlestar Galactica (3 msgs) & Blakes 7 (2 msgs) & Dangermouse (6 msgs) & Star Trek (3 msgs) & UFO (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Oct 86 21:42:27 GMT From: nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser) Subject: Re: Battlestar Galactica trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) writes: >As for the Colonial war, it had raged on for eons (or thousands of >yahren) and the original cause of the war was forgotten. The word yahren you wrote, which is obviously meant to be a plural form ("thousands of yahren"), sounds, when pronounced in the obvious way, suspiciously like the proper pronunciation of the german word Jahren (which means years). However, in the series, didn't they say yarns? I.e. the word ended with an s when it was meant to be plural, had only one syllable, and sounded like the word yarns. I realize I'm being picky, but I don't think they were using the german word for years. Nathan Glasser nathan@mit-eddie.uucp (usenet) nathan@xx.lcs.mit.edu (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 19 Oct 86 19:13:37 GMT From: gds@sri-spam.istc.sri.com (The lost Bostonian) Subject: Re: History of the Cylons Re: Lost In Space/Battlestar Subject: Galactica I believe in part 2 of "War of the Gods", when Iblis met Baltar in jail, Baltar identified Iblis' voice as the voice of the Cylon Imperious Leader. He then goes on to say that the Cylon race existed (as non-machines) over 1000 yahren (yes they used yahren) ago (perhaps yahren is a High word, like Quenya (didn't you just know I had to get some Tolkien in there :-)). Anyway, one could draw conclusions that Iblis once belonged to that race. Or, he could have appeared in human form back then and become some sort of dictator. I never read the novelization, but I believe Apollo telling some story to Boxy about how the Cylons made robots who eventually killed their masters. gregbo ------------------------------ Date: 20 Oct 86 19:11:16 GMT From: vdsvax!wongeh@caip.rutgers.edu (Edison Wong) Subject: Re: Battlestar Galactica 6090617@PUCC.BITNET writes: >ST701135%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes: >>Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression I got >>from the first book in the novelization was that the cylons were >>an *organic* race, and not machines at all! > > THAT IS WHAT THE novelization said, but the tv show differs. The >novel claimed that there was some organic form inside the armor, >augmented by robot abilities and additional electronic brains. Either in the movie or early in the series (first season), it was mentioned that the original cylons were a race of reptilian creatures who were eventually destroyed by their creation, the machines that the colonials now called cylons. I think the information was revealed by Apollo in one of his conversations (if memory serves me correctly). This reminds me of the way (Dr.) Frankenstein's monster was named... Edison ------------------------------ Date: 22 Oct 86 20:04:58 GMT From: oswego!gacs3651@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Robert Knighton) Subject: Re: Blakes 7 At last! Someone brings up B7! I have been watching it for the past several weeks (30?) and have thoroughly enjoyed it. A question though... Has Terry Nation redone any of the story lines into novel(ette,la) format? I would like to read it the way he originally concieved of the series. USMail: Robert C. Knighton RD #2 Box 321 Central Sq., NY 13036 UUCP: {siesmo, decvax}!rochester allegra !rocksvax!oswego!gacs3651 ------------------------------ Date: 27 Oct 86 14:35:34 GMT From: hrcca!jean@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jean Airey) Subject: Re: Blakes 7 Terry Nation did not do any of the "novels" that were published. There are four B7 novels out. Trevor Hoyle "Ultraworld" wrote the first three which are James Blish-like adaptations and are "Blake's Seven", "Blake's Seven and Project Avalon" and "Blake's Seven Scorpio Atack." The fourth novel is "original" and details what this author (I'm not sure if it's Hoyle or not -- I have a feeling it was Tony Attwood, but that could be wrong) thinks happened after "Blake". It's called "Afterlife" and it's not very good. While Terry probably had to approve the writing of the novels, I don't think he did anything more than that. Certainly "Afterlife" is *not* his story of the story after "Blake." I could recommend the B7 Programme Guide (paperback is $4.50) which contains interviews with many of the major people who worked on the show. "Afterlife" is also available -- although I would not recommend it. Both can be bought from "Bundles From Britain Box 34112 Chicago, IL 60634. Send a SASE for their catalog. Has anyone noticed that Avon *never* seems to program a computer through anything resembling a terminal/keyboard -- but through voice or, more commonly, through his laser probes? Any speculation on what a "Tarriel cell" is/does? Jean Airey: US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506 ihnp4!hrcca!jean ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 86 17:18:51 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: SF TV >Another is the British cartoon Dangermouse. Although this might be >considered more in the line of 'action', I think that the amazing >car that always seems to repair itself { :-) } alone qualifies it. >I was rather pleasantly surprised to find out that Oxford has a >club called the "Dangermouse Appreciation Society"..... Dangermouse is in the line of utter hilarity. Quick, dry wit, and satire of James Bond. DM is an agent (a mouse, naturally) who lives in a pleasant little hole under a London pavement. His companion is a dim-witted character called Penfold -- a mole, I think. An enemy once substituted a robot for Penfold which just kept on walking obstinately and saying "Ooh, crumbs!" every once in a while. Not even DM could at first tell the difference. Great show. Wish it were shown over here more prominently. Delighted to hear about the appreciation society. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 18 Oct 86 00:42:13 GMT From: cogent!mark@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Steven Jeghers) Subject: Re: Damgermouse Dangermouse is definitely one of the high points of British comedy. I especially like the narrator who tends to go off the deep end as the program is ending. BTW, Penfold is a hamster, I am pretty sure. How can I join the appreciation society? Mark Steven Jeghers {ihnp4,cbosgd,lll-lcc,lll-crg}|{dual,ptsfa}!cogent!mark ------------------------------ Date: 20 Oct 86 00:36:50 GMT From: crash!victoro@caip.rutgers.edu (Victor O'Rear) Subject: Re: SF TV milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes: >Dangermouse is in the line of utter hilarity. Quick, dry wit, and >satire of James Bond. DM is an agent (a mouse, naturally) who >lives in a pleasant little hole under a London pavement What? DM lives in the fashionable blue mail box (In his penthouse apartment. I believe you can see the street corner read 222 Baker ST. >His companion is a dim-witted character called Penfold -- a mole, I >think. An enemy once substituted a robot for Penfold which just >kept on walking obstinately and saying "Ooh, crumbs!" every once >in a while. Not even DM could at first tell the difference. No, my good man. The chaps at Q branch believed that they could get twice the efficiency out of their agents by using computer assistants. It didn't work... >Great show. Wish it were shown over here more prominently. >Delighted to hear about the appreciation society. It is still available on Nickolodian (A division of MTV..) In addition, my three favorite episodes are: When the narrator (Ichebod) takes over the show when (those boys at special branch) have a cross circuit with his microphone and the reality matrix... The Really Strange headquarters of OdBodkins Inc in New York city which ends with us never knowing how they'll escape the Giant Ba-nar-nar.. And the Episode where all the theme music is stolen..Oh Crumbs! (And then there's the time Ms. Boathoot quit.) ------------------------------ Date: 20 Oct 86 20:21:40 GMT From: leonard@tekecs.TEK.COM (Leonard Bottleman) Subject: Dangermouse victoro@crash.UUCP (Victor O'Rear) writes: >DM lives in the fashionable blue mail box (In his penthouse >apartment. I believe you can see the street corner read 222 Baker >ST. Dangermouse and his side-kick Penfold live in a red mail-box on Baker Street (in Mayfair). Their apartments are in the top part of the box, the garage is at the bottom, and a lift connects the two (there is also a stairway, which Penfold prefers to take). The mail-box is still used as such. Penfold is a hamster. DM is, of course, a mouse. I think Colonel K is a badger (or some such small furry creature), is anyone out there sure about this? Leonard Bottleman {allegra,ihnp4,decvax}!tektronix!tekecs!leonard ------------------------------ Date: 23 Oct 86 05:36:47 GMT From: crash!victoro@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Victor O'Rear) Subject: Re: Dangermouse leonard@tekecs.UUCP (Leonard Bottleman) writes: >Penfold is a hamster. DM is, of course, a mouse. I think Colonel >K is a badger (or some such small furry creature), is anyone out >there sure about this? Colonel K is a badger, it may have been said as much.... Miss Boathook, his secretary, could be anyone's guess, Izenbod the narrator is also unknown. Other good guys include Doctor Squakncluck, and Agent 57 whose explanation for his powers are almost as varied as his disguises.... On the other side of the ring... Baron Silus Greenback is a toad, and is rumored to be a veiled attack at the American idea of throwing money at a problem. His main assistant is Stelletto, and the other one reads comics .. Other villians include the space alien (???) and Count Duckula. Victor O'Rear {ihnp4, akgua, sdcsvax, cbosgd, sdamos, bang}!crash!victoro ARPA: crash!victoro@[ucsd,nosc] BIX: victoro Proline: ...!{pro-sol,pro-mercury}!victoro People-Net: ....!crash!Pnet#01!victoro Fandom: S.T.A.R. - San Diego ------------------------------ Date: 27 Oct 86 17:25:27 GMT From: leonard@tekecs.TEK.COM (Leonard Bottleman) Subject: Re: Dangermouse (also info. on Dangerzine) fitz@ukecc.UUCP (Iyora Oroesaw) writes: > But can anyone remember Penfold's first name and codename? I don't remember Penfold's first name, but his code-name is Puzzle because when he's under pressure he goes to pieces. Dangermouse is so top secret that even his code-name has a code-name. There's a group in Atlanta that's been working on 'Dangerzine', a fanzine for Dangermouse. I believe that they are now the headquarters of the Dangermouse Fan Club of America, but I could be wrong. Here's the address that I have to write for more information Christopher Cook PO Box 456 Atlanta, GA 30301. Leonard Bottleman {allegra,ihnp4,decvax}!tektronix!tekecs!leonard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 86 12:32:00 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: City No, the drug pusher was not Scotty. He was a crewman named Beckwith who had gotten crewman LeBeque hooked on the "Jewels of Sound", and was blackmailing him for information on the cultures they contacted, so he could use the info for his own profit. After LeBeque nearly blows up the ship while high, he decides to take what he has coming to him and goes down to tell Beckwith that he's turning him in. Beckwith bashes him over the head with a bookend, in front of witnesses, and then beams down to the planet. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 86 12:23:01 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: City on the Edge.... That wasn't all they cut out....In the original, Kirk let Edith fall down the stairs, but at the end, he could not bring himself to stop Beckwith (McCoy) , and Spock did it instead. We also see Spock nearly attacked by a mob who thinks he is the "Yellow Peril", and later we see his reaction to being reduced to menial labor. At the very end, there is a scene in Kirk's cabin, where Kirk is standing in front of his window ("if there is no window in Kirk's cabin, then BUILD ONE, dammit!") and Spock comes in and offers to take him back to Vulcan, where the "silver birds sing sweetly in the night". Kirk comments that the derelict Beckwith killed was negligible in the time stream, and then bitterly adds that Edith was too. Spock says: "No, she was not negligible, for no other woman was ever offered the universe for love." st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 86 12:36:38 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Janice Rand Oh, by the way, in the original draft of "City", we see Janice operating the transporter...Remember ST:TMP? ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 86 16:57:36 GMT From: ccastkv@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti) Subject: Re: UFO From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> >>The moon base was pretty cool; all the women wore their hair >>identically (bowl- type hairstyle), wore tight-fitting silver >>mylar outfits. One or two of them were pretty tough people; in >>one... > >Their hair was *purple* on duty, but somehow normal coloured on >leave. The reason their hair changed color was really quite simple. While on moonbase all female personel (presumably because they were the only ones with long enough hair to matter) were required to wear "anti-static" wigs to suppress static electricity buildup so that they wouldn't fry the computer or something. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Oct 86 01:08:57 GMT From: volkstation!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: UFO From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> >>One of Gerry and Sylvia's best efforts, in my opinion; superior to >>Space:1999, > >Certainly true in my experience; but improving on Space:1999 was >not terribly hard. The Andersons often seem to me to be trying to >make up with enthusiasm what they lack in expertise. Unfortunately, Space: 1999 was made AFTER UFO. The Andersons have a habit of re-using set pieces (since they are rather expensive) and, if the article in Fangoria (several years ago) was correct, UFO was created primarily as a tool for using up old models from the Thunderbirds series. According to the article, the warehouse was full. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: 21 Oct 86 16:59:24 GMT From: rayssd!m1b@caip.rutgers.edu (M. Joseph Barone) Subject: Re: UFO milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU (Alastair Milne) writes: >I always tried to overlook that fact that Skydiver alone was meant >to cover every ocean on Earth. And as you say, for aerial assaults >it had only Sky One. In the episode where the aliens used human time-bombs to disable SHADO, one of these subs gets destroyed. For this reason, I had assumed that there were several of them, but the show only concentrated on the one with Captain Peter Carlin. There were definitely two before this episode. >Skydiver found a full base on the ocean floor, a whole fleet of >UFO's came around the moon, and the 3 interceptors dealt with most >of them, allowing Sky One to have a little fun with the remainder. >How did the interceptors reload? Haven't a clue. If we are talking about the same episode, the moonbase also sent out a bunch of tanks to fight UFOs skimming the surface. There were also some Earthbased tanks (camouflaged trucks?) that helped Sky One destroy the remaining UFOs. Joe Barone {allegra,cci632,gatech,ihnp4,linus,mirror,raybed2,umcp-cs}!rayssd!m1b m1b@rayssd.RAY.COM Raytheon Co Submarine Signal Div. 1847 West Main Rd, Portsmouth, RI 02871 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Nov 86 0834-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #365 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 3 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 365 Today's Topics: Books - Zelazny (12 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Oct 86 18:36:25 GMT From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Thomas Cox) Subject: Arbitrary travel through Shadow >>1. Shadow-walk. Just as Corwin can choose to arrive in our world >>in France or the US, it is possible to choose to arrive on Proxima >>IV. > >If the "travel-to-France" universe isn't the same as the >"travel-to-US" one or the "travel-to-Proxima" one, then he can only >arrive at a world identical except that the entire universe is >shifted 4 light years over (again, relative to a reference) so that >Proxima is where Earth is in this one. He cannot encounter the >classmate, but only a counterpart identical except for being >shifted 4 light years over and being in a different universe. Remember that, while we are told that it is theoretically possible to travel to, or create [take your pick], any arbitrary universe, you can't control what the personalities of the people will be like. So if you meet your own exact double, the problem will be that s/he's only physically like you. His personality could be literally anything. >OK. Now what happens if it's an Amberite instead of a classmate? >Now the counterpart cannot exist. Oops. False. ***SPOILER*** Doesn't Caine find *his* own double in a nearby shadow, kill him, and plant the body to simulate his own death? Therefore counterparts CAN exist. I think it's almost clear that the identical-in-every-way theory won't work. I wonder if any theory will? Personally, I keep wondering why, since the shadows near Amber will most resemble Amber, they aren't always running into their own doubles? Perhaps the 'worlds' close to Amber only resemble it in topography, but [for all we know] may even be uninhabited. Thomas Cox ...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn ------------------------------ Date: 25 Oct 86 21:57:40 GMT From: ukecc!vnend@rutgers.rutgers.edu (D. W. James) Subject: Re: Amber -- sequence of books There were five books in the original Amber series by Roger Zelazny: Nine Princes in Amber (1971) The Guns of Avalon (circa 1973) The Sign of the Unicorn (circa 1975) The Hand of Oberon (1976 or so) The Courts of Chaos (1979) The dates are off of the top of my head, some are books publications, some are magazine serializations. About two years ago Roger started a second series set in the same universes (universi?) as the first five books, but at a later date and with a different main character. So far this series consist of: Trumps of Doom (1984) Blood of Amber (1986) Indications are that this series will only last one more book. But then, who knows. While I can recommend the first series with only minor reservations (the first two books are VERY good, the first has the most effective hook of any novel I've ever read) the second series is probably only of major interest to fans of Roger and/or the first series. Also, while I'm at it, someone posted a note a while back conserning Dworkin's relations with the Unicorn. Several possibilities come to mind; Dworkin using his shapechanging power to make such an event more 'natural'; the Unicorn (her)self changing shape, by all evidence in the series that was not a dumb beast; or just plain and simple (what we would call) beastiality. I qualify that because we currently don't have standards for sex with intelligent non-humans. But Corwin sums it up when he says "Though I do have mixed feelings about being descended from a Unicorn", (Hand of Oberon, I think) The nature of the Unicorn in the series really seems to be more in the line of a god of some sort. Remember that she first gave the Jewel to Dworkin, as well as returning it the second time to the proper person. Both Trumps of Doom and Blood of Amber are by Arbor House. Blood of Amber is currently only available in hardback. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Oct 86 08:27:44 GMT From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) Subject: Amber: Variable Time Differential In Trumps of Doom, Merlin states: "Now it was just a matter of time differential, a thing that was subject to variation, the 2.5-to-1 ratio being only a rule of thumb between Amber and the shadow I had recently inhabited." Now, if the variation in the time differential is proportional to the distance between shadows, the time ratio between Amber and Chaos could vary wildly in both magnitude and sign. This is the only explanation I can think of which would explain the difference between Corwin's experience in Chaos and the time that passed for in Merlin's life at the Courts. (Other than that Zelazny made a mistake.) Brian Yamauchi Carnegie-Mellon University Computer Science Department ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu BITNET: by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 86 23:57:08 GMT From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Travelling through shadows Can an Amberite walk through shadow to Proxima Centaurus? Almost certainly. At one point in the original series (_The_Hand_of_Oberon_, I think), Corwin in his authorial voice speculates about the nature of shadow; in particular about whether shadow-walkers find or create the shadows they walk to. Since that particular section is leading up to discussion of the Courts of Chaos, and the "create" option seems hard to justify for the lands far from Amber (i.e., close to Chaos), the reader can easily get the impression that the case for "finding" is incontrovertable. This impression is wrong. Note that Amberites have no trouble finding one another in shadow, once they know where to look. When Corwin returns to Earth, he doesn't return to a nearby shadow of Earth, with a shadow of Flora; he returns to the same Earth, with the same Flora. Even more compelling, at one point Corwin is talking to Oberon (in _The _Courts_of_Chaos_), and discussing the incident when Corwin escaping from the dungeons of Amber met Oberon disguised as Ganelon. Oberon notes that that meeting was not accidental; he had arranged things so that whatever route Corwin chose, it would lead to the same place. Clearly, the Amberites to some extent shape the shadows, and don't just travel through them. As an aside, one does have to know what a place is like in order to get there. Telling Corwin to meet you on Proxima Centauri won't work if he has never been to Proxima Centauri. (There are the Trumps, of course, but one still requires a likeness of the person or place represented by the Trump.) Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 25 Oct 86 00:05:49 GMT From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: amber >I think the principle of parsimony demands we suppose one of Dara's >parents to be a Lord of Chaos. It isn't necessary to invoke the principle of parsimony here; we are told that Dara is of the Royal house of Chaos. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 27 Oct 86 11:47:00 PST (Monday) From: Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM Subject: Amber - Corwin In rereading the first five Amber stories this weekend one option on the location of Corwin came to mind. Near the end of "The Courts of Choas", in Chapter 12, as they are seeing the procession for their father, the talk turns to Corwin's second pattern. Bleys says "It is my understanding from things Dworkin told me, that two distinct Patterns could not exist in the same universe." And at some other time Corwin mentions he wants to go check out his new pattern. One thought is the trumps might not work across universes. So Corwin could be off wandering around in his own universe. I don't really think this is what is happening, for Zelany will most likly have him in some kind of trouble. Where he needs to be rescued. Henry III cate3.pa@xerox.com ------------------------------ Date: 27 Oct 86 18:06:09 GMT From: rayssd!m1b@rutgers.rutgers.edu (M. Joseph Barone) Subject: Zelazny book request (not Amber related) Around 1980, Zelazny wrote "Changeling" followed by a sequel called "Madwand". This second book left itself open for another sequel. Has this sequel ever been written and, if so, what is the title? I got the first two books through the SF Book Club but I've never seen a sequel to this series offered by them. Thanks for the assist. Joe Barone {allegra,cci632,gatech,ihnp4,linus,mirror,raybed2,umcp-cs}!rayssd!m1b m1b@rayssd.RAY.COM Raytheon Co Submarine Signal Div. 1847 West Main Rd, Portsmouth, RI 02871 ------------------------------ Date: 27 Oct 86 16:45:47 GMT From: fai!ronc@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Amber - the bird flies through shadow joel@peora.UUCP (Joel Upchurch) writes: >Wasn't there also references to some of the princes setting up >trade routes through shadow for the merchant fleets? I took this to >mean that only the descentants of Oberon can 'blaze' a trail >through shadow, but that other Amberites can move through shadow >once they have been shown the way. You might be right. I remember that close to Amber and the Courts (but not too close) normal mortals and magical beings can reach amber. (Shadow is thin at that point?) That's why Julian patrols the forest of Arden. Merlin (or Corwin?) says Amber does quite a bit of trading this way. But, I thought it was interesting that there was always a prince of Amber aboard ship when the merchant fleet set sail. Perhaps non-patternmasters can trade with Amber if their shadow is close enough, but the royal merchant fleet must be led by a son of Amber if they are going to go any distance into Shadow. Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: 28 Oct 86 14:03:30 GMT From: cbdkc1!blb@rutgers.rutgers.edu ( Ben Branch 3S315 CB x4790 WSB ) Subject: Re: Zelazny book request (not Amber related) At MarCon XXI this year, Zelazny mentioned that the third book was written, but that the publisher and he "couldn't afford each other." Pity. Someday.... ------------------------------ Date: 28 Oct 86 21:20:34 GMT From: weitek!robert@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: AMBER knight@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Kevin Knight) writes: >Reflections on Amber ... >(1) At the end of COC, Dara tells Corwin that he cost her "two of >the most important persons" in her life. One is Borel, I am fairly >sure. What about the other? Kwan, the rider who preceded Merlin? I assumed that she meant Merlin, who by that time (I think) had already joined the Amberites. >(2) In GOA, "Yes!" [Dara] interrupted. "I had forgotten, or >thought he was just being mysterious or humoring me, but Brand said >exactly the same thing a long while ago. What does it mean, >though?" > "Brand! When was Brand here?" [asked Corwin]. > "Years ago," she said, "when I was just a little girl. He >used to visit here often." > Later, in SOU, Corwin recalls that "she said that Brand had >visited Benedict in Avalon. 'Frequently' was the word she had >used." However, Benedict never mentions anything about this to >Corwin, and Corwin wonders if Dara was lying about this, as she >lied about growing up in Benedict's Avalon. I know Brand went to >Random and Llewella in his search for Martin, but ... > Did Brand visit Avalon frequently, or not? Not. She knew Brand from the Courts of Chaos, which he frequented. Brand may have visited Avalon (he knew Benedict's whereabouts, and arranged for the hellmaids to cause him trouble), so he may have visited there on occasion, but the point of this misdirection is to allow Dara to drop names and gain credibility in Corwin's eyes. >(4) In NPIA, Corwin is riding to Amber with his brother Random, >when he realizes "that we had shared common parents, which I knew >was not the case with me and Eric, me and Flora, me and Caine and >Bleys and Fiona." But in SOU, Corwin's mother Faiella turns out to >be Eric's mother also (and probably Caine's, though BOA denies >this!) ... and since Faiella died giving birth to Deirdre, and >Random is younger than Deirdre, Random's mother couldn't have been >Faiella. I'd go with SOU on this. Corwin was wrong when he made that statement. Those who enjoy explaining away inconsistencies can beg off on the excuse that Corwin's memory was still defective when he said it. Frankly, I think Zelazny made a mistake. >(5) As to the identity of Merlin's "Guardian Angel" in BOA, >consider Ghostwheel! Pseudo-Vinta acts a lot like a computer, >Ghost and Vinta are never in the same place together, and the >Guardian Angel MUST protect Merlin at all costs ... well, there is >a lot of negative evidence as well, so I think it's pretty far out. I don't believe the timing works out. Gail (Vinta) knew Rinaldo several years before, in a time before Ghostwheel was finished. My theory is that Dara arranged for this protection. Robert Plamondon UUCP: {pyramid,turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert ------------------------------ Date: 29 Oct 86 10:34:01 PST (Wednesday) From: Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM Subject: AMBER Cc: knight@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu knight@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Kevin Knight) writes: >(1) At the end of COC, Dara tells Corwin that he cost her "two of >the most important persons" in her life. One is Borel, I am fairly >sure. What about the other? Kwan, the rider who preceded Merlin? The way I took this to mean Oberon. She had spent some time with him. And now he was dead. This wasn't really Corwin's fault, but Oberon was the person who came to mind. The only two other possiblities which come to mind are Benedict or Corwin himself. It doesn't appear that Dara has gotten to know Benedict very well yet. >(5) As to the identity of Merlin's "Guardian Angel" in BOA, >consider Ghostwheel! Side comment on Ghostwhell. I don't understand why Ghostwheel hung up after Merlin said he wasn't going to shut it down, after spending all the time and energy to build him. Any speculation? Have a good day. Henry III cate3.pa@xerox.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 86 14:39 MST From: Mandel%pco@MULTICS.MIT.EDU Subject: Re: Amber - the birds that fly through shadow Those aren't ordinary birds that Corwin sends. They are "birds of his desire", which will fly ahead of him through Shadow to the place he wants to (or rather: IS DESTINED to) go to. I'd consider them to be emanations of himself, or things he actually creates within the shadows, maybe by the same ability by which he can walk Shadow. (Doesn't an Amberite somewhere say something about finding any desired shadow being more-or-less equivalent to creating it? That finding can find/create anything in Shadow except personality, and these birds certainly don't meet that exclusion clause.) There's also the "arrow of his desire", which he fires aloft to find the way to go next; I think it's to find which direction in the current shadow to follow, in order to begin his shadow-walk to the next destination. And remember the grey and black hawk that he summons/whatever in Arden to bring down Julian's falcon Bela, which he mistakenly thinks is hunting him. (I may have the species wrong.) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Nov 86 0854-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #366 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 3 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 366 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Time Travel (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Oct 86 17:09:27 GMT From: byron@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Byron A Jeff) Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query It seems to me that the telegraph could be the technological breakthrough that almost anyone could bring to the 17th century. Almost everyone in today's society learns the concepts to building a telegraph in elementary school. [string two wires with a switch on one end and an electromagnet with a piece of iron above it on the other. When an electrical source such as a battery or generator is connected between the two and the switch is closed the electromagnet attracts the iron and a click occurs. Add a system for transmitting characters (Morse code) and you have a rather effective communication system. This is for those of you who may have forgotten since 3rd or 4th grade.] Many of today's children build such devices for science fairs, I did when I was in high school. Of course children and adults alike today have access to the materials available. (as I remember I used a 6V battery, 22 gauge wire, two iron nails, and the tops of metal cans for the switch and the "clicker"). But in the 17th century there was technology to build everything but the battery. But once again most 20th century people with a H.S. diploma (I hope) had the chemistry enough to understand how a battery works (Watch McGyver (sp) Monday nights at 8:00 PM ABC to get home made hints like sticking two wires of different metallic content into acid to develop a current). So in theory anyone should be able to build a telegraph with 17th century technology. To continue my speculations... If you can build an electromagnet you can build a relay, an electric motor, and an electric generator (animal or water powered). With a relay one could conciveably build a computer..... Hmmmmmmmm... Byron Jeff {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!byron ------------------------------ Date: 27 Oct 86 23:15:56 GMT From: cae780!alan@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query >Anyone out there have some thoughts on this subject? What would >you, yourself, do if you suddenly woke up 2-300 years ago and >figured that's where you'd be the rest of your life? (I mean aside >from wishing you had kept that last dental appointment... :-) I would worry about getting contact lens solution. I guess I could find a lens-maker, if it isn't too far in the past, and go back to wearing glasses. I could probably survive by making simple "inventions" that wouldn't stir up too much of a fuss, like coffee filters, or ice cream. Alan Steinberg textronix!cae780!alan ------------------------------ Date: 28 Oct 86 00:42:07 GMT From: tekla!dant@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: A Time Travel Query From: William G. Martin <WMartin@SIMTEL20.ARPA> >When this situation occurs in books or other media SF, as I recall, >the authors seem to cheat. They give the main characters special >knowledge, gimmicks, or talents ... [examples from Twain, Dr. Who, >etc.] Two more examples from literature (and much more realistic): Poul Anderson wrote a story (name escapes me, library is at home) wherein an American Air Force sergeant stationed in Iceland is transported back to the 11th century. He has learned Icelandic, which is very similar to Norse, but other than that his only unusual resource is a pistol (I think he is a Security Policeman). (Slight SPOILER) Unfortunately, he does not achieve fame, fortune, etc. L. Sprague de Camp's _Lest_Darkness_Fall_ is slightly less realistic. (Another SPOILER) His protagonist is an (American?) archeologist living in Rome who is transported to the 5th or 6th century. He knows Latin of course, but is somewhat hazy on the history of the period (his specialty is another period). (Final SPOILER warning) He achieves some fortune by "inventing" the still and the Hindu-Arabic numerals along with long division (ever try doing long division in Roman numerals?). >Anyone out there have some thoughts on this subject? What would >you, yourself, do if you suddenly woke up 2-300 years ago and >figured that's where you'd be the rest of your life? (I mean aside >from wishing you had kept that last dental appointment... :-) I suspect that most people would end up as either slaves or dead rather quickly. I can just see myself trying to make money teaching pre-technical people about C programming :-) Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com ------------------------------ Date: 28 Oct 86 16:08:37 GMT From: nike!kaufman@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query [I didn't include any of the previous ideas. Basically, it's "you're in the 16th-17th century, what do you do?"] Me, I'd invent electricity. In fact, I'd re-create all the inventions that Edison had invented (after all, the *materials* he used (except for cellulose (film)) were around for centuries, if the *technology* wasn't), starting with the electrical generator. How'd you like to be an Advisor on Technology for the Medicis (or the King of England or something, if you've got morals--if I had a time machine, morals would be the first thing I'd lose ;-). One more literary note: ***MAJOR SPOILERS FOLLOW*** "Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen" by H. Beam Piper. He invents gunpowder (not at all difficult--I know an even easier formula) and, using 18th century tactics, takes over the world in a benign dictatorship (yeah, right). nike!orion!kaufman ------------------------------ Date: 28 Oct 86 16:54:29 GMT From: inuxd!jody@rutgers.rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross) Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query I have loved time stories were the person(s) were plopped in time with no warning. I also thought how overly convenient the Ordinary people have certain talents to help them (you have mentioned the few I remember off the top of my head). The biggest problem, I see, is when the main character can speak the language of the historical characters. So I looked around for books that dealt with this part and found nothing (true I didn't look very hard). Therefore I set up my own plot line that dealt with a person not knowing the language in his/her time destination. What I found was a very difficult way of getting this person to survive, and once I did, I found other problems such as changing time. Once I got passed these blocks, there was the problem of explaining things once he/she got back. So now I know why there are not many (if any) books written about language differences. Hopefully some talented writer can work it out and create a good story. I can't wait to read it. jody ------------------------------ Date: 28 Oct 86 19:31:00 GMT From: cord!miker@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mike Roberson) Subject: Re: An [ordinary persons] Time Travel Query From: William G. Martin <WMartin@SIMTEL20.ARPA> >... [what] if a person from the present is transported to a past >time...? When this situation occurs in books or other media SF, as >I recall, the authors seem to cheat. They give the main characters >special knowledge, gimmicks, or talents ... ... what about the >ordinary man or woman of today, not equipped with a library or a >photographic memory, [or 'special knowledge, gimmicks...'] ? One example of this situation is R.A.Heinlen's "JOB: a Comedy of Justice". Mike Roberson UUCP: {ihnp4,cbosgd,akgua}!cord!miker ------------------------------ Date: 29 Oct 1986 10:27:32-EST From: wyzansky@NADC Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query Will Martin (wmartin@almsa-1.arpa) put a thought-provoking question on Time Travel in SF #360, about what would a modern citizen do if suddenly transported back in time to a pre-technological age. He is right - most authors do cheat. Another example of cheating, similar to Clemens, is deCamp's _Lest_Darkness_Fall_, where the time traveler is transported to Italy in the 500's, where, knowing Latin, he plays a major role in changing history by helping the Goths hold off the Byzanstines and preventing the Dark Ages from starting in Italy (along with "inventing" the printing press and double entry bookkeeping.) The story he mentions about the State Policeman is probably Piper's _Lord_Kalvan_, where Corporal Morrison is transported rather to a ability, charisma, political savvy, better formula for gunpowder, etc. to exploit the situation (and marrying the boss's daughter doesn't hurt either :-)). There was a short story, I think in Analog, a while ago about an American soldier stationed in Iceland who gets transported back about a thousand years to Viking times. He can figure enough of the language to get by, and having his pistol helps, but he runs afoul of local customs and winds up slightly dead. However, to get back to the question of how a modern, reasonably educated, somewhat sedentary person would do in the historical past if dropped in a non-wilderness area, I think the answer might be better than Will thinks. Most people know enough of the general outlines of history to know who will win wars, expand in which directions, etc. to either stay out of trouble or exploit which can be "invented", if not gunpowder, then the printing press, matches, steam engine, cotton gin, etc. I think the thing most people would miss most would be the lack of modern medical and dental care. It would be a shame to die of appendicitis or pneumonia (add penicillin to the invention list) or other curable problems. Harold Wyzansky (wyzansky@nadc.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: Wed 29 Oct 86 23:47:20-EST From: Rob(s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet) Subject: re:time travel question >Twain's "Connecticut Yankee" just happens to be carrying an almanac >which gives him details about a solar eclipse. Actually, he wasn't carrying an almanac. He merely remembered the date and time of the eclipse. He also remembered that a missionary in some primitive land (in his present) had recognized an eclipse as it happened, and had used it to save his life. This gave him the idea to use it. Although it almost doesn't save him, if you recall. The page he asks for the date gives him the wrong one, and he thinks he's going to be burned (or hanged, or whatever) a day early. Luckily, the eclipse happens on time. I don't see the special qualities listed as being "cheating," however. Twain wasn't trying to write a "man from the present goes back in time and rules the world" type of story. It was more of a social commentary on Twain's time, comparing pre- and post- industrial societies. Rob Freundlich Wesleyan University s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 30 Oct 86 16:39:25 GMT From: udenva!showard@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Steve "Blore" Howard) Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query Check out a short story (essay, really) called "Language for Time-Travellers" (no, that doesn't sound right, but that's the gist of the title) by L. Sprague deCamp. In it he mentions things like vowel shifts and the advent of silent letters, etc. Steve Howard {hplabs, seismo}!hao!udenva!showard {boulder, cires, ucbvax!nbires, cisden}!udenva!showard ------------------------------ Date: 1 Nov 86 14:08:12 GMT From: stolfi@jumbo.DEC.COM (Jorge Stolfi) Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query William G. Martin asks: >So, the query: if a person from the present is whisked to a past >time, back to a pre-electrical, pre-Industrial Revolution society >(by surprise, without being able to prepare for it, and cannot move >back and forth through time as they wish -- they are just grabbed >from here&now and plunked smack dab into then&there), how could >that person use their knowledge to support themselves, make >themselves rich and/or famous, change or control the society they >find themselves in, or otherwise be successful by some definiton? This kind of situation actually happened many times in the past, whenever a shipwrecked sailor or a lost explorer found himself transplanted by accident into a more primitive society. The few cases I know suggest that the farther you go back in time, the LESS you can count on your knowledge to achieve success. For example, the British sailor who inspired the novel _Shogun_ was able to succeed in 16th century Japan largely because the local lords were enlightened enough to get interested in his knowledge of European geography, history, and politics. In contrast, a German sailor who ended up among the indians in Brazil at about the same time barely managed to rise from the rank of exotic entree to that of the tribe's mascot, and that on account of his physical appearance only. Maybe we should collect a few more anedoctes, and draw a graph or something... j. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Nov 86 01:50:22 GMT From: apollo!nelson_p@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: RE: time travel query Basic survival would be a non-trivial issue. First of all, there would be the basic problem of lack of familiarity with customs and the tools and conduct of day-to-day life. Even your accent would be different. Probably it would be a good idea to get to a large city quickly since small villages would be provincial and very suspicious of anyone as obviously different as someone who just arrived from the late 20th century. There you could claim to be from another country to account for your 'differentness'. If you try that in the Colonies then you better be familiar with nautical things because the only way you could have arrived there is via a long sea trip. Economic survival is another issue. You would need to get some money for basic necessities. Perhaps you think that you could engage in some kind of craft but if you arrived penniless it would be hard to break in and in any case you would need something short term just to eat. And by the way, do you know how to ride a horse? Perhaps you could feign idiocy and hope for charity until you could get your bearings. In the long run, if you last that long, being able to read and write might provide a marketable skill (teacher?) and I've even heard of villages where the one literate citizen could make a comfortable living writing and reading letters for the others but there we get back to the problem of village life. I also thought of another survival problem: disease. We live in a *relatively* antiseptic environment here compared to daily life in colonial times. Not only that, but many viruses undergo gradual changes over the years (witness flu virus). Upon arrival, your body would be exposed to all kinds of nasty diseaes with which it was ill-prepared to cope. And medicine back then consisted of things like leeches. I suppose *that* would be one advantage of being a poor idiot: you don't have to worry about getting such advanced medical care. Assuming you were still alive after the first few weeks you might start worring about whether the temporal adjustment that landed you there was likely to happen again. If it happened once... Maintaining your sanity with that on your mind, not to mention the wrenching experience of originally being yanked out of the 20th century and everything familiar would be quite a feat. It might help if you could contact other extemporates (..that's a new word I invented...it means something like expatriot, only for *time*) but finding a way to do that without ending up in Bedlam or whatever the Colonial version was called would be another challenge. Nowadays, people are much more accepting of weirdness. Is there anyone else out there who recently arrived from New Washington, 105ish AT? Do you know whether Nathan Kennedy was re-elected presicom? Peter ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Nov 86 0912-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #367 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 3 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 367 Today's Topics: Books - Brin (2 msgs) & Card & DeCamp (2 msgs) & Dickson & Eddings & Norman & Pangborn (2 msgs) & Williams & Ace Doubles & Malevil (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Oct 86 16:46:41 GMT From: petsd!cjh@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Chris Henrich) Subject: Re: Brin demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) writes: >... Brin writes for all the world like a high school student. (I >even ran a section of his text through one of these "star analysis" >algorithms to determine it's reading level...it came out between >9th and 10th grade skill level.) That's a good sign. I wish I could get my technical memos down to that level. Those algorithms usually count things like long words, words with prefixes and suffixes, and length & complexity of sentences. Certain bad writing habits, such as the use of unnecessary jargon and tangled syntax, raise the skill level. The effect is that the poor reader has to work harder to get the meaning out of all this mush. I have heard that the New York Times has a reading skill level around 9th grade. So, what you report is consistent with my impression, that Brin's writing is decent and workmanlike without being notably distinguished. Gene Wolfe's style *is* notably distinguished, and quite good, and it ought to cause arithmetic overflow on those "star analysis" algorithms. Now, with any luck, I'll have revived one of the most long-winded arguments on this net group. But my intention is to show that the connection between "reading skill level" and the quality of prose is not simple. Regards, Christopher J. Henrich UUCP: ...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh US Mail: MS 313; Concurrent Computer Corporation; 106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 Phone: (201) 758-7288 ------------------------------ Date: 29 Oct 86 07:44:49 GMT From: gt-stratus!chen@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ray Chen) Subject: Re: Brin cjh@petsd.UUCP (C. J. Henrich) writes: >Certain bad writing habits, such as the use of unnecessary jargon >and tangled syntax, raise the skill level. The effect is that the >poor reader has to work harder to get the meaning out of all this >mush. Agreed. The big difference between the prose in Startide Rising and Sundiver (his earlier book in that same universe) wasn't jargon, vocabulary, or anything else immediately obvious. Polish. It didn't stand out. It was just effective. Zelazny is particularly good at this type of thing. He'll alter the style depending on the effect he wants. Unless he's trying for a particular atmosphere though, he sticks to a very simple, direct, and seemingly-natural style. I say seemingly because it doesn't seem hard to write that way until you actually try and do it. The best I've been able to do with technical papers/memos is 12th. Ray ------------------------------ Date: 27 Oct 86 13:43 PST From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Speaker for the Dead Great Book! As good as Ender's Game! The book picks up many years after Ender's Game has ended, and Ender Wiggin is still waiting to complete his task for the hive queen. At the same time, Humanity has finally found a second sentient race, that they call the Piggies. The resolution of Ender's problem and the Piggies' problem is wrapped up together with that of a number of problems within the colony dedicated to observing the Piggies. There is also an interesting sub-plot involving computer sentience. If you liked Ender's game, you'll like Speaker for the Dead. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 86 19:37 EST From: S6VYJE%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: harold shea I would appreciate any help anyone could offer in my attempt to locate _The Wall of Serpents_, by L. Sprague De Camp and Fletcher Pratt, which contains the last two novellas about Harold Shea (The "Incompleat Enchanter"). In particular, (attn: bibliography is my businessman) the publication date(s) and form. I understand that the book is tied up in contractual difficulties, and it is unlikely that the book will be reprinted. Hence, I'd like to obtain a copy of the original. Has anyone ever even _seen_ the book? Thanks in advance. greg morrow s6vyje@irishmvs.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 29 Oct 86 15:54:52 GMT From: nike!kaufman@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: harold shea S6VYJE%IRISHMVS@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes: >I would appreciate any help anyone could offer in my attempt to >locate _The Wall of Serpents_, by L. Sprague De Camp and Fletcher >Pratt, which contains the last two novellas about Harold Shea (The >"Incompleat Enchanter") In particular, (attn: bibliography is my >businessman) the publication date(s) and form. Dunno the date(s), but two novellas, "Wall of Serpents" and one other (I forget--it's been about 3 yrs.) were reprinted in paperback as "The Enchanter Completed". Dunno the company, either, but it was one of the biggies (Avon, Ace, etc.). (Also includes an intro by Mrs. Pratt.) Hope that's enough info. seismo!nike!orion!kaufman ------------------------------ Date: 28 Oct 86 02:58:09 GMT From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60aB) Subject: Childe Cycle Question I have a question about the Childe Cycle books by Gordon Dickson. Please forgive me if it has been discussed before; I'm new to this newsgroup. There is a discrepancy in the event sequences between _Soldier_Ask_Not_ and _Dorsai!_ having to do with when Kensie Grahme was killed. In _Dorsai!_, Kensie was killed before the battle of Zumbri. Donal gets a message from his father about Kensie's death and asks him to take Ian Grahme (Kensie's twin brother) as a subordinate (Donal hires Ian as training supervisor). However, all this happened while Donal was Warlord of the Friendlies. In _Soldier_Ask_Not_, Tam Olyn (a news reporter) goes to St.Marie ostensibly to get the local reaction to the battle of Zumbri (another error is that Dickson mistakenly refers to Zumbri as Oriente. Oriente was a different battle occurring earlier in _Dorsai!_ and mentioned erlier in _Soldier_.) At this point Kensie is alive and well because later on he is the commander of the St. Marie forces fighting the Friendly forces. It is only after the defeat of the Friendlies that Kensie is killed. Kensie (and his death) is much more important to _Soldier_ than to _Dorsai!_ so it would be easier to change the latter. In addition, there is also a short story (name eludes me now) detailing Kensie's death. This story conforms to the events in _Soldier_. Mr. Dickson has probably been made aware of this discrepancy (these books are at least 20 years old). Has he ever attempted to correct it? If not, why not? I'll stifle in advance the objection that the books are independent and do not have to conform to events in other books. For most books this would be true, but Mr. Dickson has stated in print that the Childe Cycle books can be read as stand alone books or as a composite whole. Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com ------------------------------ Date: 27 Oct 86 21:50:10 GMT From: sjc@mordred.cs.purdue.edu (Steve Chapin) Subject: Re: Belgariad by David Eddings lawitzke@msudoc.UUCP (John Lawitzke) writes: > I recently finished reading The Belgariad by David Eddings and > would like to highly recommend it to anyone who has the time to > read it. Me too! This is one of the best series I've seen lately. Part of the charm for me was that the characters were depicted with a sense of humor. Most of them seemed believable in their actions and feelings, and I could easily relate to many of the human situations in the books. > The Belgariad consists of five books: Pawn of Prophecy, Queen of > Sorcery, Magician's Gambit, Castle of Wizardry, and Enchanter's > End Game. Go out and buy 'em. You won't be sorry! Steve Chapin ARPA: sjc@mordred.cs.purdue.edu UUCP: ...!purdue!sjc ------------------------------ Date: 29 Oct 86 14:19:57 EST From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Gor Hi, A friend of mine recommended the Gor series by John Norman. I went to the bookstore and found 9 different books, none of them number one. Could someone post a listing of the books, with some sort of rating/review? Did John Norman write any other books? (I have seen these books discusssed before, 'specially under the Sex in SF discussions.) Thanx, Stephen Pearl Pearl@Blue.Rutgers.Ed ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 86 19:36:00 GMT From: hp-pcd!carl@rutgers.rutgers.edu (carl) Subject: Re: post-holocaust - DAVY If you haven't read DAVY by Edgar Pangborn, do it, NOW, or sooner. This is one of those quiet books that is not flashy, or explosive, or anything but an amazing book. The characters are GREAT, the writing is GREAT, the book is GRRRREEAAAAAT!! (sorry, Tony.) The only thing that makes this book science fiction is its setting in a post-holocaust America. It starts out fairly mellow, and the plot doesn't seem to be going anywhere real fast, and then suddenly you're done with the book, and you know you're going to miss the characters for a long time, and you wish there was a 1000 pages more. I realize this is a very disjoint dissertation, but I tend to froth at the mouth a lot when talking about books/movies/arts/people/etc of this quality/level. If you haven't read it, run to your nearest book dealer and get it. If you have read it, now's a good time to read it again! Edgar Pangborn was one of those authors that never generated a very large body of work, and for some reason never seemed to get much credit or press, but Davy is his masterpiece and should be required reading of everyone before being allowed to join the human race. Everett Kaser Albany, OR ------------------------------ Date: 27 Oct 86 15:41:51 GMT From: ix241@sdcc6.ucsd.EDU (ix241) Subject: Re: post-holocaust - DAVY This work, as well as all of Pangborn's work would be recommended by other science fiction authors no matter what their personal opinions about each other, Reagan, Carter, the Mets or what. Pangborn loved people and it shows in his work. John Testa UCSD Chemistry sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241 ------------------------------ From: andromeda!pete@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Peter Farabaugh) Subject: RE:post-holocaust Date: 29 Oct 86 21:16:57 GMT Try the Books on Pelbar by Paul O. Williams(?). I'm a bit fuzzy about the titles but some of them were: The Fall of the Shell Ambush in Shadows The Dome in the Forest The Breaking of Northwall(?) They are interesting in that most of the stuff about the holocaust and past history is told only in passing and by the covers of the books. If you were to read them without seeing the pictures or reading the blurbs, it would probably take you a couple of chapters to realize that this is a post-holocaust book. Peter Farabaugh. ..topaz!andromeda!pete PS: They were also pretty good reading for entertainments sake. PPS: If you've read them and didn't like them , please don't bother me by telling me how bad they were. It's all just a matter of opinion. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Oct 86 19:14:00 GMT From: mic!d25001@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Ace Doubles >From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) >These go back a long way. One of the earliest, for example, has as >one of the pair Asimov's "The Thousand Year Plan"--later retitled >"Foundation". You have your chronology switched here. The Ace book was an abridged (I think) reprint of the Gnome Press hardcover which carried the familiar title. The stories themselves, of course, go back even further to 1940 magazine appearances. >Initially, the doubles could be quite long, but by the 1960s they'd >settled on a 256-page format. Far from being a way to stretch >novelletes, this became a way to chop novels. True. This should not be taken to imply that all Ace 'novels' were chopped up versions of longer works; though, many were. Some of the works, taken from the pulps of the 40's and 50's, were 'naturally' the correct length. >Off the top of my head, some of the better Ace double titles which >I haven't seen reissued include "Crisis in 2140" (H Beam Piper, >despite the claim that all his books have been reissued), AKA "Null-ABC" with John McGuire. It ran as a two part serial in "Astounding" when most of the 'normal length' novels (e.g. "Mission of Gravity") ran in three; so, it probably did not have to be 'chopped' for publication. I have asked on the net before but got no answer; so, I shall ask again: Does anybody know the story of the Piper-McGuire collaborations and why McGuire's by-line has been dropped from recent reprints? Anybody? >"Reality Forbidden" and "The Mad Metropolis" (Philip E High), >"Crown of Infinity" (author?), "Vulcan's Hammer" (Philip K Dick), >"Ladder in the Sky" (Woodcott?), "The Door Through Space" (Marion >Zimmer Bradley--who is not about to let this one be reissued), "The I thougth that it _had_ been reissued; though, with MZB's original ending rather than the one by the book's editor (Donald Wolhiem). This novel shares certain names and situations (cf. the 'Dry Towns') with the Darkover series and has been ocassionally cited as being a part of that series. It is not. Carrington Dixon UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!mic!d25001 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 86 13:15:25 cet From: 7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Post-Holocaust Novels One of my personal favorite "Post-Holocaust" books is Malevil (I forget the author's name -- don't have the book with me here). It's a story set in France, and about the owner of a medieval castle that becomes a community after a bomb (which turns out to be a lithium or other "clean" device) is dropped. Doesn't really go into all the whys and etc. of The Day It Happened -- focusses more on the social implications of being suddenly deprived of most of our technology, and the fact that things regress to a feudal-like order (reinforced by Malevil itself). ------------------------------ Date: 29 Oct 86 00:22:59 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jim Frost) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Novels 7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes: >One of my personal favorite "Post-Holocaust" books is Malevil (I >forget the author's name -- don't have the book with me here). >It's a story set in France, and about the owner of a medieval >castle that becomes a community after a bomb (which turns out to be >a lithium or other "clean" device) is dropped. Doesn't really go >into all the whys and etc. of The Day It Happened -- focusses more >on the social implications of being suddenly deprived of most of >our technology, and the fact that things regress to a feudal-like >order (reinforced by Malevil itself). I got hold of _Malevil_ and started reading it too. The book appeared, on the whole, to be pretty good. But: It was translated from French into English. A lot of the names are incredible (unless you're French :-)). If you can handle getting bogged down with some strange terms and names, than this book is good reading. Otherwise, it may be too difficult to follow. If you can read French pretty well, I would bet that the original is great. Jim Frost UUCP: ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs BITNET: cscc71c@bostonu ------------------------------ Date: 29 Oct 86 23:43:45 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Novels > One of my personal favorite "Post-Holocaust" books is Malevil (I > forget the author's name -- don't have the book with me here). MALEVIL is by Robert Merle, who also wrote THE DAY OF THE DOLPHIN. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Nov 86 0947-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #368 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 3 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 368 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Barzman & Brin & DeCamp (2 msgs) & Eddings & Fancher & Jardine & Norman (2 msgs) & Palmer & Zahn & Wolfman Stories & In Search of Books ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Oct 86 13:13:43 GMT From: jc3b21!larry@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Lawrence F. Strickland) Subject: Re: Piers Anthony 6080626@PUCC.BITNET (Adam Barr) writes: > The annoying thing about Piers Anthony is that he can occasionally > have a really good imagination. The basic plots for Xanth, the > Phaze/Proton books, the Bio of a Space Tyrant, and the > Incarnations of Immortality are are great stuff. In the hands of > even a semi-competent writer, they might turn out to be great > series'. Upon reading the first book of each series, I thought, > "Boy, this is great. I can't wait for the second book." When I > read the second book, I usually thought "Hmmm, ... rule the > universe, that's just the way it will have to be. To recap: Piers > Anthony is a bad writer. Piers Anthony is to > science-fiction/fantasy writing as Kate Bush is to pop music. > Thank you. ... Hmm... Well I happen to be a sometime Kate Bush fan, so... Actually, Adam does make a few good points (perhaps just a bit loudly). One he does not mention, though, is that the same "...Boy, this is great... Uh, maybe not great, but good...Fair...Yawn!..." happens inside the stories as well. I have noted it particularly in the 'Incarnations of Immortality' series. The books start out great (particularly _On a Pale Horse_) but kind of fade away during the middle and sort of leave you wondering at the end if the book is really finished! On the other hand, there is considerable MUCH WORSE trash out there! Lawrence F. Strickland (larry@jc3b21) Dept. of Engineering Technology St. Petersburg Jr. College P.O. Box 13489 St. Petersburg, FL 33733 Phone: +1 813 341 4705 UUCP: ...akgua!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry ------------------------------ Date: 31 Oct 86 19:38:26 GMT From: inuxd!jody@rutgers.rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross) Subject: Piers Anthony Spoiler maybe????? There has been some bad reviews on _Race Against Time_. There have also been those who quote matterial from the book to give a person a chance to understand the problem. Thank you! I was nearly half through the book before I saw the reviews and asked someone to tell me why it was sooooo bad. Even when I was told I could not believe. This was not the same book I was reading. My book told of struggle to be free of prison in a race of purely caucasian and told who you were to marry. I have to defend Mr. Anthony a little. Even when I had finished the book and knew why there were so many bad reviews, I still felt that Anthony was trying to show how culture makes a people vital. Yes he failed miserably in my view. The book might be a good read if taken with a grain of salt. Oh, I'm not sorry I finished reading it even though I hated its theme. jody ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 30 Oct 1986 00:34:04-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Alternate Earths From: MSgt Robert L. Stevenson <DOET.AFCC@AFCC-3.ARPA> > I'm suprised that noone has mentioned "Echo X" by Ben Bova, but > then again it's been some time since I read it and maybe it has > slipped from popularity. ECHO X was by Ben Barzman, not Ben Bova. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 29 Oct 86 23:39:38 GMT From: unc!gallmeis@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bill Gallmeister) Subject: Re: Brin ("easy" vs. "good" writing) cjh@petsd.UUCP (C. J. Henrich) writes: >demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) writes: >>... Brin writes for all the world like a high school student. (I >>even ran a section of his text through one of these "star >>analysis" algorithms to determine it's reading level...it came out >>between 9th and 10th grade skill level.) > >That's a good sign... What constitutes "good" writing as opposed to "easy" writing is open to debate. It should be noted that a simple, straightforward style (Ellison is an example in speculative fiction, I think) is often thought to be as "good" as more intricate prose. An excellent essay on the matter -- perhaps the only GOOD thing I read in High School English -- is Orwell's "Politics and the English Language." The man thought right, is all I can say about it (and I'll be incredibly embarrassed if I've botched the attribution). Bill O. Gallmeister mcnc!unc!gallmeis ------------------------------ Date: 31 Oct 86 01:19:47 GMT From: husc2!moews@rutgers.rutgers.edu (moews) Subject: Re: harold shea kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes: >Dunno the date(s), but two novellas, "Wall of Serpents" and one >other (I forget--it's been about 3 yrs.) were reprinted in >paperback as "The Enchanter Completed".... Not quite --- you're probably thinking of _The_Compleat_Enchanter_, containing 3 novellas, "The Roaring Trumpet", "The Mathematics of Magic", and "The Castle of Brass" (not to be confused with _The_Incomplete_Enchanter_, containing the first 2 of these 3 and now probably out of print.) As for _Wall_of_Serpents_, the only edition I know of is hardcover & was published by Avalon Books (New York, 1960). David Moews moews@husc4.harvard.edu ...!seismo!harvard!husc4!moews ------------------------------ Date: 29 Oct 86 20:57:57 GMT From: csustan!smdev@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Scott Hazen Mueller) Subject: Re: harold shea S6VYJE%IRISHMVS@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes: >I would appreciate any help anyone could offer in my attempt to >locate _The Wall of Serpents_, [...] contains the last two novellas >about Harold Shea [...] has anyone ever even _seen_ the book? I've borrowed the book twice from my local library. It was in rather bad condition and looked a bit like an old SF Book Club edition. If your local library keeps older books, you may be able to find it there. Hope this helps some, Scott Hazen Mueller lll-crg!csustan!smdev work: (209) 668-5590 or 5628 home: (209) 527-1203 City of Turlock 901 South Walnut Avenue Turlock, CA 95380 ------------------------------ Date: 29 Oct 86 01:08:29 GMT From: marc@hpltca.HP (Marc Clarke) Subject: Re: Belgariad by David Eddings Has Eddings written anything else since the Belgariad? Marc Clarke Hewlett-Packard Loveland, Colorado ..!hplabs!hpfcla!hpltcb!marc ------------------------------ Date: 29 Oct 86 11:11:52 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Upcoming from Donning/Starblaze > From: sun!chuq (Chuq von Rospach) > Starblaze has signed for two new graphic novel series in 1987 -- A > DISTANT SOIL written and illustrated by Colleen Doran, and GATE OF > IVREL, adapted and illustrated by Jane Fancher from C. J. > Cherryh's novel. > > Both have previously been published as B&W comic book formats. > The Graphic editions will be 64 page, perfect bound, and published > semi-annually. Both will be in color. > > [I got cover art for both #1's in B&W wiht the press release. > Both look quite nice! -- chuq] I've read the first (and only to date) issue of Fancher's THE GATE OF IVREL adaptation. To put it mildly, I'm *not* looking forward to seeing the new edition from Starblaze. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 30 Oct 86 10:59:15 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Khyber Connection From: zooey.Berkeley.EDU!c160-dq (Kathy Li) > For anyone who wants a good popcorn time travel series, Simon > Hawke's TIME WARS have been recommended. Each book is pretty much > the old plot of "stick our fearless time commandos back in > historical events to help "fix" them". The series is well > written, with lots of adventure, familiar characters, and panache. > I like it. If you liked these books, hie thee to a good used-bookstore and look for a series of four books by "Larry Maddock" (real name: Jack Jardine) under the title of AGENT OF T.E.R.R.A. [Temporal Entropy Restructure and Repair Agency]. These were published during the acronymic agency craze of the late 60's The four titles are: (1) THE FLYING SAUCER GAMBIT, (2) THE GOLDEN GODDESS GAMBIT, (3) THE EMERALD ELEPHANT GAMBIT, and (4) THE TIME TRAP GAMBIT. The main character, Hannibal Fortune, and his alien metamorph companion have to stop the evil organization, Empire, from changing the past. Not great lit, but a pleasant time passer. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 30 Oct 86 09:27:22 GMT From: gsmith@brahms (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: Gor PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU writes: >A friend of mine recommended the Gor series by John Norman. >Could someone post a listing of the books, with some sort of >rating/review? Here is one review. I read the first Gor book. I thought it was very bad. I decided nevermore to read Gor. I have heard the series gets worse, a mind-boggling concept. Why not forget it and read Dray Prescot instead? Gene Ward Smith UCB Math Dept Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: 31 Oct 86 13:31:46 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: Gor (BOOKLIST) Well here's the list. I won't rate each one, but suffice it to say that 1 through 5 are okay adventure and just about anything from 6 on is not. (Noman's non-Gor books are GHOST DANCE, IMAGINATIVE SEX, and TIME SLAVE.) 1 Tarnsman of Gor 2 Outlaw of Gor 3 Priest-Kings of Gor 4 Nomads of Gor 5 Assassin of Gor 6 Raiders of Gor 7 Captive of Gor 8 Hunters of Gor 9 Marauders of Gor 10 Tribesman of Gor 11 Slave Girl of Gor 12 Beasts of Gor 13 Explorers of Gor 14 Fighting Slave of Gor 15 Rogue of Gor 16 Guardsman of Gor 17 Savages of Gor 18 Blood Brothers of Gor 19 Kajira of Gor 20 Players of Gor 21 Mercenaries of Gor 22 Dancer of Gor 23 Renegades of Gor Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 30 Oct 86 21:54:17 GMT From: inuxm!arlan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (A Andrews) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Novels >> One of my personal favorite "Post-Holocaust" books is Malevil (I >> forget the author's name -- don't have the book with me here). How about DAvid R. Palmer's EMERGENCE? (I met him in Evansville last week at Contact'86 and he's a nice guy. Turns out he's a court recorder, and THAT'S why he could write his entire first novel in a shorthand style and have it make sense. That's my belated conclusion on how he pulled off the fine story. arlan ------------------------------ Date: 31 Oct 86 13:11:42 GMT From: rabbit1!dml@rutgers.rutgers.edu (David Langdon) Subject: Re: Review of "The Backlash Mission" From: Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM > "The Backlash Mision" is the sequal to "The Blackcollar" by > Timothy Zahn. Like Cobra, these focuses on superhuman warriors. > But instead of using mechanical means, in this universe, chemicals > give the warriors increase reflexs and other things. The flavor > of the "The Backlash Mision" is much the same as "The > Blackcollar". Lots of complex plots, fast action, and generaly a > "good escape from daily life" story. This is not a great book in > terms of hidden meanings, or a message. But it is great fun. The > story moves along quickly. If you liked "The Blackcollar" you'll > enjoy this. > One side comment. The title page reads "Blackcollar: "The > Backlash Mission". Zahn may be planing to put one of these out > every six months or so. I heartily (sp?) agree. Zahn definitely writes good action novels without trying to fill in hidden meanings or excessive prose. The ending of "The Backlash Mission" definitely indicates that Zahn is planning a continuation of these novels. Only question is, when will he follow up? David Langdon Rabbit Software Corp. (215) 647-0440 7 Great Valley Parkway East Malvern PA 19355 ...!ihnp4!{cbmvax,cuuxb}!hutch!dml ...!psuvax1!burdvax!hutch!dml ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 30 Oct 1986 02:46:40-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Wolfman story request From: Tim Shimeall <tim@ICSD.UCI.EDU> > Does anyone have a citation (Title, author, and preferably > anthology where it can be found) for the "original" wolfman story? Probably the most famous old werewolf story is (and shame on you, Mark Leeper, for not remembering this one!) WAGNER, THE WEHR-WOLF by G.W. M. Reynolds, originally published in 1848. Dover Books reprinted it in 1976, and it's quite likely that it's still in print from them. Another early werewolf novel is LE MENEUR DE LOUPS by Alexandre Dumas, *pere* [yes, the same one who wrote THE THREE MUSKETEERS], originally published in 1857. English title is THE WOLF LEADER. According to Everett Bleiler's THE GUIDE TO SUPERNATURAL FICTION, Frederick Marryat's THE PHANTOM SHIP (1839) has one chapter (39: "Krantz's Narrative") that is a werewolf story that has been anthologized, separately from the rest of the novel, under various titles, including "The Werewolf", "The Wolf of the Hartz", and "The White Werewolf of the Hartz Mountains". Also according to Bleiler, Sutherland Menzies' story "Hugues the Wer-Wolf: A Kentish Legend of the Middle Ages" is the first werewolf story to be published in English, though he doesn't give an original publication date for it. It can be found in: (1) GOTHIC TALES OF TERROR, VOLUME 2, ed. by Peter Haining, and (2) VICTORIAN GHOST STORIES, ed. by Montague Summers. I believe that this latter is long out of print. Last, but not least, TALES OF ALL NATIONS; OR, POPULAR LEGENDS AND ROMANCES, anonymously edited in 1848, contains an anonymously written werewolf story, "The Severed Arm". It occurs to me that Montague Summers, referred to above, has also written some books about the werewolf legend, though no titles come to mind. If you look him up in your local library, you might be able to find some more references by that route. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 29 Oct 86 18:57:00 GMT From: sgreen@hera.cs.ucla.edu (Shoshanna Green) Subject: In Search of: Books Does anyone know anything about the status of the following books: Paul Edwin Zimmer's third "Dark Border" novel Locus reported that it was on its way (I'm pretty sure they said it had been sold to a publisher) about a year ago, but I've heard nothing since. (SPOILER WARNING** At the last Darkover Grand Council, PEZ said that it was not the completion of the trilogy (which ended with such a cliffhanger), but a prequel to the trilogy. I think Locus said this too.) Katherine Kurtz's "Codex Derynianus" I'm pretty sure this is from Borgo Press, but it might be another even smaller publisher. I ordered it through a store in MA and, while they couldn't get a copy for me, they said they had seen it. Change of Hobbit says it doesn't exist. It is listed in Books in Print, for what that's worth. I've been trying to find these books for a long time, and would appreciate any info someone might have. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Nov 86 0822-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #369 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 5 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 369 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Burroughs & Clancy & DeCamp (3 msgs) & Eddings (2 msgs) & Hubbard & Morressy & Norman (2 msgs) & Zahn & Post Holocaust Novels ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Nov 86 03:21:53 GMT From: ee161aba@sdcc18.ucsd.EDU (David L. Smith) Subject: Re: Piers Anthony (Race Against Time Spoiler?) Why all the fuss just recently about this book? I seem to recall reading it as kiddie sci-fi (when I was a kiddie) about ten years ago. From what I'm remember, the plot is: White kid lives in white neighborhood with "dog" spot and loving parents Goes to bus station to meet girl he's supposed to marry and instead meets some wacked out chick who insists that she left her village in Africa riding on a hippo to meet her bethrothed. .... Racially pure adolescents discover everyone else is kind of brownish "Standards" and are maintaining elaborate scam to obtain racially pure people (why, I forget). Find that one side of Earth has been obliterated, and they were living on the other side which had been replanted, etc. Is this the plot? Is this the book? Why are you people reading kiddie fiction? :-) Why are publishers re-releasing books for the adult market from their "kiddie" line? Hmm, maybe I've matured less than I think in the last ten years and the publishers know that. David L. Smith UC Sandy Eggo {ucbvax, ihnp4}!sdcsvax!sdcc18!ee161aba ------------------------------ Date: 1 Nov 86 05:18:59 GMT From: jhunix!ins_akaa@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee) Subject: Conan books Can anyone give me a complete list of all the Conan books, in chronological order? Kenneth Arromdee BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 86 11:46 CST From: Wilcox@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Tom Clancy and SF I have read both Clancy's works "The Hunt for Red October" and "Red Storm Rising" and I tend to agree that his books should not be classed in the "SF" genre. He presents no fantastic or even outlandish ideas for the reader to believe, nor does he describe old out-moded technology either. He describes the cutting edge of technology....If the US armed forces can be engineering a "STEALTH" aircraft, why can't there be similar technology being (or have been) developed for underwater craft? Subs trailing each other has been a part of hunter-killer tactics for a long time, it's just difficult to know when you're behind the enemy. Damping screw noises and steam noises and things is all part of the "run_silent run_deep" theme of the dolphin brigade. Even the development of Nukes (Nautilus) was a major step in quiet over the old diesels who made gobs of noise and had to surface every now and again for air. I really think Clancy's material is more adventure/thriller oriented than SF oriented. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Nov 86 13:56:45 GMT From: stolfi@jumbo.DEC.COM (Jorge Stolfi) Subject: Arithmetic with Roman numerals Dan Tilque wrote: >L. Sprague de Camp's _Lest_Darkness_Fall_ is slightly less >realistic. (SPOILER) His protagonist is an archeologist living in >Rome who is transported to the 5th or 6th century. ... He >achieves some fortune by "inventing" the still and the Hindu-Arabic >numerals along with long division (ever try doing long division in >Roman numerals?). Aren't you being a little unfair here? I think that arithmetic with Roman numerals is hard only if you try to handle each letter as a separate digit. If instead you break the numbers into multi-letter decimal "digits", you will find that arithmetic is as almost as easy as with arabic numerals. For example, if you want to add MMCMLXXIV (2974) and CDIX (409), you parse the numbers into thousands, hundreds, tens, and units, as MM CM LXX IV CD IX then write them one on top of the other, with like "digits" on the same column, MM CM LXX IV CD IX and then add the columns, as in the arabic system: M X MM CM LXX IV CD IX + ----------------- MMM CCC LXXX III As in the Arabic system, you must memorize a 9x9 addition table (IV+IX = III plus a carry of X, etc.). Note that the same table works for all columns, once you identify M=C=X=I and D=L=V. Note also that many entries of the table are trivial (e.g., I+I = II, V+II = VII, etc.) If we replace the "subtractive" digits IV, IX, XL, ... by their "additive" equivalents IIII, VIIII, XXXX, etc, the addition table becomes even simpler. (I have seen this notation used in a couple of places, but don't know if it was ever used for computations. Note however that this is exactly how numbers would be encoded in an abacus). The other operations can be handled in the same manner. I don't know if the Romans actually used these methods, but I am sure that with a little practice the parsing will become automatic: one will "see" MMCMLXXVI as four digits, not nine letters. At that point, one will probably be able to match corresponding digits without having to write them into aligned columns. The real problems with Roman numerals are the lack of a symbol for zero and the varying width of digits (which makes it hard to align corresponding digits); the finite supply of letters (which puts a bound on the representable numbers); and its general verbosity. Of course, the Romans also lacked many mathematical concepts that we have since incorporated into our number system, such as decimal fractions and negative numbers. In spite of those problems, I don't think that Roman numerals were as cumbersome as they are usually said to be. Considering how long it took for the Arabic notation to be accepted in Europe, I seriously doubt that L. Sprague de Camp's hero would have made a fortune by "selling" them... j. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Nov 86 19:58:51 GMT From: sdsu!cademy@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Robert Cademy) Subject: Re: harold shea The Wall of Serpents is a followup to the stories published in The [In]Compleat Enchanter. The copy I have is in paperback, and was published by Dell in November 1979. You might check Books in Print to see if it is still being printed, or try your local used Science Fiction Bookstores. Robert Cademy UUCP: ...sdcsvax!sdsu!cademy ARPA: sdsu!cademy@{nosc,sdcsvax} ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 86 08:20:46 est From: firth@sei.cmu.edu Subject: de Camp's Enchanter The Magical Misadventures of Harold Shea are all published in paperback: 'The Compleat Enchanter', Ballantine, 1976, ISBN 0-345-27502-0 (contains the first three stories: The Roaring Trumpet; The Mathematics of Magic; The Castle of Iron) 'Wall of Serpents', Dell, 1979 ISBN 0-440-19639-6 (contains the last two stories: the Finnish and the Irish ones) The original stories were published between 1940 and 1954. I believe that SFBC has produced an edition with all five in one book, but I can't find the evidence. Robert Firth ------------------------------ Date: 31 Oct 86 13:14:14 GMT From: rabbit1!dml@rutgers.rutgers.edu (David Langdon) Subject: Re: Belgariad by David Eddings lawitzke@msudoc.UUCP (John Lawitzke): >I recently finished reading The Belgariad by David Eddings and >would like to highly recommend it to anyone who has the time to >read it. I will put my endorsement here as well (I read it as it was coming out -- that means that I read the first entry 4 times!!! to keep up-to-date on the story line). Does anyone know if Eddings has working on anything else?? David Langdon Rabbit Software Corp. 7 Great Valley Parkway East Malvern PA 19355 (215) 647-0440 ...!ihnp4!{cbmvax,cuuxb}!hutch!dml ...!psuvax1!burdvax!hutch!dml ------------------------------ Date: 1 Nov 86 02:43:12 GMT From: cpf@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Courtenay Footman) Subject: Re: Belgariad by David Eddings marc@hpltca.HP (Marc Clarke) writes: >Has Eddings written anything else since the Belgariad? A New York Times Book Review article reported that he is working on a five volume sequel to The Belgariad. No publication dates have been announced. Courtenay Footman Lab. of Nuclear Studies Cornell University ARPA: cpf@lnssun1.tn.cornell.edu Usenet: cornell!lnssun1!cpf Bitnet: cpf%lnssun1.tn.cornell.edu@WISCVM.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Nov 86 20:18 EST From: S6VYJE%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: l. ron hubbard I would appreciate seeing reviews of _Battlefield earth_ and the five published books of the _Mission Earth_ dekalogy. If such have already appeared on the net, could someone please mail directly to me. Are they worth reading? Buying used? Buying new? Even, buying hardcover? Was anyone else insulted that the promoters of _Mission Earth_ felt obliged to define 'dekalogy' to us? greg morrow s6vyje@irishmvs.bitnet (@wiscvm.wisc.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Nov 86 20:30 EST From: S6VYJE%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: John Morressy John Morressy is an author who started out with Playboy Press writing what I can only describe as hard-core fantasy, really epic battles of good vs. evil with magic heroes and heroic mages. His style is very historical, while retaining interest. A recurring theme is that man is pushed by destiny to single points at which all is won or lost. He has published (at least) four interrelated novels, in achronological order, to wit: _Ironbrand_, third chronologically _Graymantle_, second chronologically _Kingsband_, fourth, etc. _The Time of the Annihilator_, first, etc. this last was published with Ace, which is also apparently reprinting the others. The only complaint I have with his work is that the achronological publishing *shows*. _Ironbrand_ has generalities about the events in _Graymantle_, but _Kingsbane_ has specifics, and it takes place several hundred years later. The fourth-published book is in most respects inconsistent with the view of the events therein given as history is the earlier books. Even so, I thoroughly recommend all of the above as good reads. Now, Morressy has written two other books, _Frostworld and Dreamfire_ with Playboy, and _The Mansions of Space_ with Ace. If there is anyone else out there who has read his work and is familiar with these, could you tell me if they are connected with the other four? Are they worth getting (if I can find them)? Thanks in advance, greg morrow s6vyje@irishmvs.bitnet (@wiscvm.wisc.edu) ------------------------------ Date: 2 Nov 86 08:47:57 GMT From: reed!mirth@rutgers.rutgers.edu (The Hero Discovered.) Subject: Re: Gor I don't know why your friend recommended the Gor books...either it was a cruel joke or you need to choose your friends more closely ( :-), but with a grain of seriousness). The Gor books are sexist. The Gor books are degrading to women, and a bit to men as well (and no, I am by no means a rabid feminist. I prefer to think of myself as a humanist; I believe in the dignity and essential equality of all human beings). They promote the beliefs that women want to be raped, that men can't enjoy sex unless the woman is forced, that slavery is what most women really want. These books involve violence, sex, and violent sex. I am not upset that they are published, for I dislike censorship, but I feel that purchasing them is a mistake, for doing so bolsters the Gor author's belief that his opinions are valid and acceptable to others. Go to the library and choose a Gor book at random. Open it at random. Read a sentence at random. You are 85-90% likely to read a sentence represenative of every other sentence in the series. Do you really want to spend your money this way? Again, I am not a censor, a prude, or anyone else upset by inclusion of 'real-world' things, such as sex and violence, in fantasy media. They can add that certain edge -- when they are NOT the sole point of the story. Niven handles sex beautifully (if somewhat euphemistically) in The Magic Goes Away. Harlan Ellison describes violent acts in many of his stories. But these works depend on more than the reader's 'titillation' (for lack of a better word) for their impact. So: read a Gor book or two. Get a feeling for what they are about. Then please, tell me: what do you think? I hope you will agree with my distaste (no, repulsion) for these books. But I will not tell you what to think. Any other netters share my feelings about Gor? Yours for a better world, Ellen C. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Nov 86 19:53:46 GMT From: grady@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Steven Grady) Subject: Re: Gor The Gor books are the only used books I ever bought that I ended up selling back to used book stores (and the best SF used book store around here - The Other Change of Hobbit, wouldn't even take them). Steven grady@ingres.berkeley.edu ...!ucbvax!grady ------------------------------ Date: 31 Oct 86 13:11:42 GMT From: rabbit1!dml@rutgers.rutgers.edu (David Langdon) Subject: Re: Review of "The Backlash Mission" Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM writes: > "The Backlash Mision" is the sequal to "The Blackcollar" by >Timothy Zahn. Like Cobra, these focuses on superhuman warriors. >But instead of using mechanical means, in this universe, chemicals >give the warriors increase reflexs and other things. The flavor of >the "The Backlash Mission" is much the same as "The Blackcollar". >Lots of complex plots, fast action, and generaly a "good excape >from daily life" story. This is not a great book in terms of >hidden meanings, or a message. But it is great fun. The story >moves along quickly. If you liked "The Blackcollar" you'll enjoy >this. > One side comment. The tittle page reads "Blackcollar: "The >Backlash Mission". Zahn may be planing to put one of these out >every six months or so. I heartily (sp?) agree. Zahn definitely writes good action novels without trying to fill in hidden meanings or excessive prose. The ending of "The Backlash Mission" definitely indicates that Zahn is planning a continuation of these novels. Only question is, when will he follow up? David Langdon Rabbit Software Corp. 7 Great Valley Parkway East Malvern PA 19355 (215) 647-0440 ...!ihnp4!{cbmvax,cuuxb}!hutch!dml ...!psuvax1!burdvax!hutch!dml ------------------------------ Date: 31 Oct 86 17:03:20 GMT From: loral!dml@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis) Subject: Re: post-holocaust novels Peter Farabaugh (pete@andromeda) mentions a few of Paul O. Williams' Pelbar books. Here's the complete list (so far): 1. The Breaking of Northwall 2. The Ends of the Circle 3. The Dome in the Forest 4. The Fall of the Shell 5. An Ambush of Shadows 6. The Song of the Axe 7. The Sword of Forbearance These cover a period of about 25 years, 1100 years after a major nuclear/ biological war. They are set in (mostly) the American midwest and follow the actions and interactions of seven or eight very different societies as they start to join into a larger one. Good stories all, though Williams' writing style of short, choppy sentences gets a bit irritating after a while. Other post-holocaust books: Hiero's Journey, The Unforsaken Hiero -- Sterling E. Lanier These take place about 5000 years after nuclear/bio war, which produced a lot of mutants. Many humans (and other creatures) have mental powers which they use either selfishly or not. Loads of weird critters (imagine, if you will, a Man-Rat) and people nearly as weird. And one of the finest I've seen: Re-Birth -- John Wyndham About 3000 years after straight nuclear war, a strict, puritanical society has been established in Labrador. Mutant plants and animals are killed on sight, and human children born with visible defects are surgically sterilized and abandoned to tribes of outlaws living close to a still-radioactive blast area. Several people have developed telepathy, and have grown up hiding it to avoid a similar fate. Dave Lewis Loral Instrumentation San Diego loral!dml ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Nov 86 0854-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #370 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 5 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 370 Today's Topics: Television - Dangermouse (2 msgs) & Star Trek (13 msgs) & Star Blazers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Oct 86 17:37:00 GMT From: kaufman@uiucdcs.cs.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: Dangermouse > On the other side of the ring... Baron Silus Greenback is a toad, > and is rumored to be a vailed attack at the American idea of > throwing money at a problem. His main assistant is Stelletto, and > the other one reads comics .. Yes, what is that other crow's name? And let's not forget Nero, Barony's pet caterpillar. > Other villians include the space alien (???) and Count Duckula. The alien's name is Quark, and he is generally found with Grovel the robot. Ken Kaufman uiucdcs!kaufman kaufman@a.cs.uiuc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 29 Oct 86 21:53:19 GMT From: drutx!slb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden) Subject: Re: Dangermouse (Penfold's name) Penfold's first name? How about: Ernest (Posted for a fiend, oops, friend. I'll take comments for him--flames may get lost.) Sue Brezden ihnp4!drutx!slb ------------------------------ Date: 23 Oct 86 19:17:08 GMT From: cae780!louann@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Metamorphasis (was Taboos) nathan@mit-eddie.UUCP (Nathan Glasser) writes: >If anything, the moral seems to be that even if something (someone) >is different from you, it doesn't mean that loving them is wrong. >This could easily be construed to mean racial or religious >differences between people don't matter, and/or that new or >different things should not be rejected just because of those >differences. This is also the impression I received from the show. I do not see how it was supposed to imply anything except love between two beings of different worlds. Lou Puetz louann@cae780 ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 86 01:45:23 GMT From: meccts!mvs@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Michael V. Stein) Subject: Re: Taboos in Star Trek (was ST:The Next Gen.) demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) writes: >In "Metamorphasis," the relationship between the cloud-creature and >Zephram was intended to be a parallel to a homosexual relationship, >and the confusion that sometimes results when a person realizes >he/she may experiencing feelings of love to a member of the same >sex. A general realization that "love is love, and gay is ok." In no way was the cloud creature presented as male. They made it very clear in the show that the creature was female. >The incest ("sort of") is directed at "Miri." Although the censors >never let it come out that way, that was to be the origin of the >disease. ...unfortunately, the NBC head-guys put the squeals on >that one Real Quick. That was way too hot a topic for 1967 >television. Assuming this is true, I don't know why it is supposed to be significant. I imagine there were a lot of shows that tried to bring up topics that the censors rejected. Michael V. Stein Minnesota Educational Computing Corporation - Technical Services UUCP ihnp4!!meccts!mvs ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 86 15:02:53 GMT From: inuxd!jody@rutgers.rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross) Subject: Re: Taboos in Star Trek (was ST:The Next Gen.) > The only way the Metamorphasis analogy made it to the tube was > that it was such a subtle connection, the censors and NBC never > caught on... Yes, it must have been subtle. It was too subtle for me to see the real homosexual concept (of course that's not saying much). I could have sworn that Zeprhem was a male he...I mean she, did a good impersonation of a man; even to the point of flirting with the female Kirk had along. Yes, I'm trying to be sarcastic, and I beg to differ on your point of Metamorphasis. A lot of emphasis was placed on the fact that the Companion was female. Kirk says something like 'female that changes things. He's not a zoo specimen, he's a lover'. I always thought the show was a statement on interspecies (paralleling interracial marriages of '60) love. Kirk and co. thought it was perfactly normal to love another creature where Zephrem (whose morals were of the old school) thought it was indecent. Zephrem changes his mind in time, but I felt the show had somehow failed on it's point. Zephrem did not know he loved the Companion until she had taken human form. Maybe it didn't fail because it was about homosexuality. No, I still have trouble believing that Zephrem was a woman. jody ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 86 22:37:42 GMT From: pttesac!ahrens@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Peter Ahrens) Subject: Re: Taboos in Star Trek (was ST:The Next Gen.) Forgive me if someone has already posted a related response. In the episode I believe was entitled _Turnabout Intruder_, there is a scene between the body of Kirk, occupied by the mind of Janice Lester, and Janice Lester's accomplice, a male. Lester attempts to use her feminine wiles on the guy via Kirk. One is left to ask what long term viability there is in this relationship. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 86 22:18:18 GMT From: sgreen@hera.cs.ucla.edu (Shoshanna Green) Subject: City on the Edge of Forever There's been a lot of talk lately about CotEoF and its different incarnations. Could someone tell me where you're getting all this info? Hello, net! Nice to join you. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Oct 86 05:43:58 GMT From: reality1!james@rutgers.rutgers.edu (james) Subject: Re: Taboos in Star Trek (was ST:The Next Gen.) demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) writes: >In "Metamorphasis," the relationship between the cloud-creature and >Zephram was intended to be a parallel to a homosexual relationship, >and the confusion that sometimes results when a person realizes >he/she may experiencing feelings of love to a member of the same >sex. A general realization that "love is love, and gay is ok." Excuse me? A homosexual relationship between a cloud creature and a man? Uh, no. Someone has a very active imagination. Go watch the episode again. The cloud creature becomes distinctly feminine at the end as I recall... >The incest ("sort of") is directed at "Miri." Although the censors >never let it come out that way, that was to be the origin of the >disease. ...unfortunately, the NBC head-guys put the squeals on >that one Real Quick. That was way too hot a topic for 1967 >television. The only way the Metamorphasis analogy made it to the >tube was that it was such a subtle connection, the censors and NBC >never caught on... I don't remember enough about this episode, but again I doubt the show itself bears out such speculation. >...both those pieces of information came from interviews between >the various authors of the episodes and a "trekkie fanzine." I would suggest spending less time reading quotes of wishful thinking from magazines printed 20 years after the fact and more time watching the shows themselves. The shows simply don't bear out claims like these, whatever the original authors might wish. James R. Van Artsdalen ...!ut-ngp!utastro!osi3b2!james ------------------------------ Date: 27 Oct 86 20:32:00 GMT From: friedman@uiucdcs.cs.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: Taboos in Star Trek (was ST:The > In "Metamorphasis," the relationship between the cloud-creature > and Zephram was intended to be a parallel to a homosexual > relationship, and the confusion that sometimes results when a > person realizes he/she may experiencing feelings of love to a > member of the same sex. A general realization that "love is love, > and gay is ok." > > The only way the Metamorphasis analogy made it to the tube was > that it was such a subtle connection, the censors and NBC never > caught on... > > ...both those pieces of information came from interviews between > the various authors of the episodes and a "trekkie fanzine." That's so subtle, I still don't see it, and I'm quite familiar with the episode. Whatever the author intended, it sure didn't come across, so what point is there in it? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 86 23:10 EDT From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire Subject: "City on the Edge of Forever" Yet another addition re:"City.." There was also a character in Ellison's original script called 'Trooper' who had fought in WW I, who was supposed to represent all that was bad about the depression. In the story he is a legless beggar who provides Kirk with information regarding Beckwith. Kirk's acknowlegement of his dignity as a human being was far more touching and human than Kirk was allowed to be in the finished version. Another difference is that the Time Portal was guarded over by 'Guardians of Time', and that the enterprise was portrayed in the new time stream as populated by 'The Marauders' or some such who were rather like the folks portrayed in 'Mirror Mirror'. (It just occured to me that this may have already been discussed; I'm new, bear with me) I highly recommend the original "City.." script, it is available in a book called "Six Science Fiction Plays". It is a tribute to Ellison's gifts as a storyteller that even the bastardized version of "City.." that eventually aired was a beautiful and touching story that was pure science fiction, a real achievement for television SF, I'd say.. Dan P. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Oct 86 11:49:04 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: City on the Edge of Forever From: hera!sgreen > There's been a lot of talk lately about CotEoF and its different > incarnations. Could someone tell me where you're getting all this > info? Harlan Ellison's original version of the screenplay for "City..." was published (with a long introduction by Ellison, of course :-)) in SIX SCIENCE FICTION PLAYS, edited by Roger Elwood, from Washington Square Press (Pocket Books) in 1976. Not an easy book to find. Now that Ellison is back in publishing circulation, *maybe* in a few years we'll finally see his proposed collection of all of his science fiction screenplays. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 86 16:21:25 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: City on the Edge of Forever Two people asked me where I got my information on my earlier postings. Ellison's original screenplay for CotEoF was published around 1975 in a Pocket Books paperback called SIX SCIENCE FICTION PLAYS. I have no idea if this is still in print--I got mine in a used-book store that had a large Star Trek collection. (Other Worlds, on Wickenden St. in Providence, R.I.) st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 86 21:04:26 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: Star Trek: "Metamorphasis" & "Miri" (was Taboos) I have to agree with Nathan Glasser about the impression made in "Metamorphosis". The question of the Companion's being in love with Cochrane didn't even arise until the universal translator automatically assigned a female voice to its translation of the C's thoughts, meaning that the Companion regarded itself as female. So, Cochrane is male, Companion is female, they have a close relationship, therefore they are in love (rotten logic, but in the story, it was correct). It seems to me this could hardly be farther removed from the idea of homosexuality. Looking at the previous posting, it seems that the homosexuality idea was something that appeared in the fan magazine after some interviews. I think the question is: how accurately did the magazine represent the views of the writers? Perhaps well, but if not, it would hardly be surprising. And if the report was accurate, I guess we must assume that "Metamorphosis" metamorphosised. And in "Miri", the puberty-linked disease was originally supposed to arise from incest? Is that what we are told? Sounds rather unbelievable. Was every child supposed to suffer incest on reaching puberty? By whom, since presumably nobody would survive sexual maturity long enough to inflict it? If not, how did they support the thesis that every child reaching puberty would be stricken? Alastair Milne PS. I must confess that I am highly sceptical of the idea of a Star Trek episode having a moral, for the simple reason that the dramatic quality was never high enough to give a real presentation of a problem. To my mind, Star Trek is for fun. It isn't deep enough, doesn't present enough evidence, doesn't work through the issues enough to be considered a presentor of moral values. (And if it were, I doubt I'd enjoy it half as much: I'd be too busy arguing with it.) It is enough for me that it was already head and shoulders above the rubbish that passed for sf on TV in those days. I don't require it to be elevated further. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 86 21:17:41 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: STAR TREK and Harlan Ellison >Yes, I think McCoy injecting himself with an overdose of a powerful >drug is implausible. Aside from the major medical advances >represented by tricorders, Feinbergers, etc., even doctors who are >careless of their patients are likely to avoid equipment that >represents a danger to \them/, or take precautions in its >handling---when was the last time your dentist/dental-hygienist was >in the room when X-raying your teeth?) I should think quite the opposite. A physician who is rather casual in his own habits will still be quite careful in his professional work. Notice, for example, that McCoy was very careful in giving Sulu the injection -- then forgot that the ship was unsteady while preparing to disassemble the hypo. Sheer bad luck, in a way: if that big lurch had happened a moment earlier or later, the hypo would not have been where it was, and McCoy would simply have stumbled for a moment. Staying in the X-ray cubicle unshielded is a bit difficult for a technician (not doctor, who seldom take their own pictures) to manage as a careless oversight -- especially since the controls for the X-ray are usually outside the cubicle. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 4 Nov 86 03:06:17 GMT From: nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser) Subject: Re: Star Trek: "Metamorphasis" & "Miri" (was Taboos) milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes: >And in "Miri", the puberty-linked disease was originally supposed >to arise from incest? Is that what we are told? Sounds rather >unbelievable. Was every child supposed to suffer incest on >reaching puberty? By whom, since presumably nobody would survive >sexual maturity long enough to inflict it? If not, how did they >support the thesis that every child reaching puberty would be >stricken? Not only that, but how did the Enterprise crew on the planet catch the disease? Are we supposed to assume that upon beaming down the crew engaged in incest? There weren't even any other members of their families there. How could they have managed to do this? *:-) Nathan Glasser nathan@mit-eddie.uucp (usenet) nathan@xx.lcs.mit.edu (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 31 Oct 86 18:58:33 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!ranger@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Samuel P. Ranger) Subject: Re: UFO and Star Blazers gb3@psuvm.bitnet.UUCP writes: > Okay, so I'm into this cartoon called Star Blazers. What I >want to know is is there any other fans out there we should know >of. I am also looking for an episode guide and any info on >merchandise and/or fan clubs. Also I'm look- ing for a UFO episode >guide. Also one more thing, is Star Blazers available on >videotape?? Thanx. There are 4 or 5 Star Blazers graphic novels out that follow the story beginning to end. In a few months there will be a Star Blazers limited series comic coming out. That's about all I know so I hope this helps. UUCP:...!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!ranger ARPANET:ranger@bucsb.bu.edu CSNET:ranger%bucsb@bu-cs BITNET:engm6xc@bostonu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Nov 86 0902-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #371 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 5 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 371 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Time Travel (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Oct 86 17:30:57 GMT From: spp2!urban@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mike Urban) Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query byron@gitpyr.UUCP (Byron A Jeff) writes: > It seems to me that the telegraph could be the technological >breakthrough that almost anyone could bring to the 17th century. >[description, but problems with power supplies] What about the phonograph? They ran on cranks and flywheels. Assuming you had metalworkers who could build reasonably good screws/wormgears (and I admit I don't know how big an assumption that is--maybe you could talk a clockmaker into doing some of this stuff in wood?), you ought to be able to introduce the phonograph as early as the 1500s. Mike Urban ..!trwrb!trwspp!spp2!urban ------------------------------ Date: 30 Oct 86 22:24:22 GMT From: raster!roger@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query There are some historically useful skills practiced today as hobbies or sports. How about brewing, distilling (a generally illegal hobby), archery, or any kind of musical skill? Actually, the most bizarre suggestion I've read along these lines was published very recently in ANALOG. (The name of the story escapes me now, can anyone else contribute?) An Iraqui scientist steals the only working time machine, and travels to prehistoric Mesopotamia to escape total war and ecological collapse. He supports himself as a shaman. No Nostrodamus-like predictions, either. He simply gets drunk on kumiss, has visions, and babbles in Arabic. I suppose it's better than starvation... but convince me. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 86 04:40:42 GMT From: looking!brad@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton) Subject: Re: time travel query nelson_p@apollo.uucp writes: >Economic survival is another issue. You would need to get some >money for basic necessities. Perhaps you think that you could >engage in some kind of craft but if you arrived penniless it would >be hard to break in and in any case you would need something short >term just to eat. And by the way, do you know how to ride a horse? >Perhaps you could feign idiocy and hope for charity until you could >get your bearings. In the long run, if you last that long, being >able to read and write might provide a marketable skill (teacher?) >and I've even heard of villages where the one literate citizen >could make a comfortable living writing and reading letters for the >others but there we get back to the problem of village life. Yes, there would be obstacles, but I don't see too much in the way of real problems for an intelligent modern man. (A woman might have more trouble, although her health and height would mark her as a 'lady', giving her a reasonable chance of doing what was largely the only alternative back in those less educated times.) If you don't fall prey to now-extinct disease, you would be taller, better nourished, stronger and healthier than the average 18th century man. Fit enough to get quick manual labour to give you a bit of money. After that, there are whole piles of things you could do to get really rich. The simplest thing is music. Even if you have no talent, you have in your memory some amazingly valuable poems and melodies. You don't have to arrange them as rock & roll. Find an 18th century composer with technical skills and let him do that. If they haven't been invented yet in your time, invent things like electricity, the match or the hot air balloon. If you don't mind the ethical consequences, invent weapons (rifled barrels, for example, or poison gas) or reveal military strategy if you have the background. Sell intelligence about what armies will be where if you know any military history of the era. Invent fads and fashions. Raise hemlines and lower them. Create new services that today we take for granted, invent the money back guarantee or any number of other successful business inventions that everybody knows about now, but only you know will work back then. There's gold in California and Oil in texas. Diamonds and everything else in South Africa. Immense amounts of nickel in Sudbury, Ontario. Did you know concrete is much stronger with steel rods in it? Suggest that to an engineer. Be blessed and rich when you patent the flush toilet. Everybody today knows how it works, but back then they went in chamber pots. Elevators make tall buildings possible if you invent them. The richer you get, the more of these things you can take advantage of. In the end, you have a staff of the finest engineers and scientists ready to develop things that you outline the workings of. You can hire the world's great minds when they are young and unknown. Be the patron of the world's great artists by getting in early. If you didn't care, and you weren't killed for it, you could become the wealthiest, most powerful man in the world. Back all the right presidential candidates. You know who'll win. Bet on them too, if you want, for your seed money. If you can't sing, you can also get seed money from storytelling. If you can't write worth beans, find a young writer like Dickens or whoever is around and team up. You're cultured, educated, literate and full of ideas and admiration. They'll talk to you. See you in the past. Brad Templeton Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 86 21:13:22 GMT From: larsen@brahms (Michael Larsen) Subject: Re: time travel query >After that, there are whole piles of things you could do to get >really rich. > >The simplest thing is music. Even if you have no talent, you have >in your memory some amazingly valuable poems and melodies. You >don't have to arrange them as rock & roll. Find an 18th century >composer with technical skills and let him do that. Somehow I doubt that the century that gave us Bach and Mozart would have much use for melodic fragments of Beatles songs. >If they haven't been invented yet in your time, invent things like >electricity, the match or the hot air balloon. If you don't mind >the ethical consequences, invent weapons (rifled barrels, for >example, or poison gas) or reveal military strategy if you have the >background. Sell intelligence about what armies will be where if >you know any military history of the era. Have you ever built a voltaic cell or DC generator from common household materials? Do you know what the oxidizing agent is in match heads, what kind of fabric is strong and light enough for a balloon, how to make and deliver phosgene gas on enemy targets? If so, you have far more technical knowledge than the average American. How do you machine a rifled barrel or insulate a copper wire? I doubt if most of us could duplicate a zipper or even a paper clip. >Invent fads and fashions. Raise hemlines and lower them. Create >new services that today we take for granted, invent the money back >guarantee or any number of other successful business inventions >that everybody knows about now, but only you know will work back >then. These things are fine once you've established yourself as a major force in fashion or business. The average manual laborer isn't in a position to get very far with them. >There's gold in California and Oil in texas. Diamonds and >everything else in South Africa. Immense amounts of nickel in >Sudbury, Ontario. Getting to California was no small feat in those days. Do you know how or where to pan for gold. Drilling for oil requires substantial technology. Nickel is great for jet turbines; what was the market for it 200 years ago? >Did you know concrete is much stronger with steel rods in it? >Suggest that to an engineer. Perhaps he would know what to do with the suggestion. I have no idea how the rods should be positioned or how the concrete should be poured. >Be blessed and rich when you patent the flush toilet. Everybody >today knows how it works, but back then they went in chamber pots. >Elevators make tall buildings possible if you invent them. As blessed as John Crapper is today, you mean? Actually, this one isn't too bad, although it still requires some engineering know-how. Tall buildings are difficult without structural steel. Elevators are difficult to run until power lines have been strung. >If you can't sing, you can also get seed money from storytelling. >If you can't write worth beans, find a young writer like Dickens or >whoever is around and team up. You're cultured, educated, literate >and full of ideas and admiration. They'll talk to you. It's not clear what you would have to offer Dickens. Imagine an incompetent writer trying to sell the story of, say, Hamlet, to a pre-Shakesperean audience. My guess is that very few of us, sent back 200 years and given a competence to live on, could accomplish much. The mathematicians could advance the subject a hundred years, but I doubt that anyone could make a great fortune. larsen @ Berkeley.edu.brahms ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 86 14:01 PST From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Stranded in time In response to the "What would you do if you woke up 2000-3000 years in the past?" question, I have a few ideas. First of all, as a 20th century technophile, I am not necessarily a "normal" person. I am a computer scientist by trade and a reader by hobby. I think I may have more than a bit of arcane knowledge stored away. So with this in mind I recall the things I sort of know: Electricity. Pretty simple really. It wouldn't take too much to make a waterwheel generator, although it would take a lot of experimentation to produce an efficient one. Of a more pressing concern is the wire. This would require working with a blacksmith to develop some decent methods. As I recall, wire can be made by extruding metal through a small hole in a plate. With this knowledge and some practice you should be able to obtain wire for the coils (remember, you don't have much else to do besides hunt for food or live off your fat :-). Next is the lightbulb. A simple arc will suffice to convince someone to help you. Gunpowder was mentioned. I wouldn't mess with guns, but would go straight to grenades. Simple and with my high school pipe bomb training I might be able to save my own ass. Gears and mechanical connections. Some of this may be taken for granted, but decent gears and motion controls were not invented until the 1800s. Hang gliders. Sell this to your local duke for his airborne forces. Check out the grenades mentioned above. This should earn you a knighthood or the equivalent. Be very careful during the testing phase though. Never let nobilitiy ride an untested device no matter how hard they demand! It's not worth your life (the NASA guys only lost their jobs). Bows and arrows, depending on how far back you went. Irrigation. Crop rotation. Cross breeding of plants. A simple bit of math and physics might go a long way amongst the aristocrats. Bicycles. The internal combustion engine (ok, maybe a bit difficult, but not too complex). Of course, an explorer would be an interesting pasttime (I know it's around here somewhere!). Maybe a mapmaker? Depends on the timeframe again. In short, just knowing that something is possible is a large part of the work. Most inventors didn't know what the hell they were doing. Just having an end in sight can make all the difference in the world. Jon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 86 16:57:46 PST From: raoul@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA Subject: Time Travel and related problems I think everyone is being too practical for their own good. Learning survival skills is good if you are by yourself or with relatively few people. But if we are talking about villages and cities... First of all realize the farther back in time you go, the more superstitious the natives are likely to be. Therefore if you want to be famous (God knows why you'd want to be) or well off in a relatively ancient society then play upon their superstitions rather than their intellectual aspirations. Realize your looks and mode of dress will probably be very foreign. Knowing how to make gunpowder can be very effective for pyrotechnic effects or small explosions. The explosions do not have to be in the dynamite or cherry bomb or even be very good. I would imagine an explosion would be very impressive to people who never saw one before. A little acting ability helps too. A lot depends on how you present yourself (first impressions you know). You may then set yourself up as the local witch doctor/wizard. I believe they do pretty well in a society that has them. Knowing basic first aid may help too. In a relatively advanced society, play upon their intellect rather than their superstitions. The materials to "invent" should be available to you by then (timewise). They might enjoy learning "higher" mathematics too at this time. I believe there are several instances in modern history (say airplane pilots landing in Tibet for the first time) where the local natives mistook the newcomers as some type of god. It doesn't take much of a show. Al ------------------------------ Date: 4 Nov 86 07:10:00 GMT From: silber@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query Any time between the 1st century BC, and the early 15th AD, in a civilized area, one could probably make the greatest invention and moneymaking idea of all, movable type. I just saw James Burke's "The Day the Universe Changed" (part 3) which discussed the effects of printing upon society. The advantages of inventing the printing press are as follows: a) It draws upon available technology. (Metal casting, presses, ink, paper.) (In a pinch one could use vellum or parchment, the limiting factor in earlier times was lack of scribes.) (Sufficiently early and removed from Egypt one might have to invent paper, but that is not all that hard to do.) b) The technology used comes from a variety of fields. One could be a metalworker, jeweler, paper-maker, scribe, government official, etc. and come up with the idea and have the resources to put it into action. c) It is practically guranteed to make money, at least Europe. Look what happened to Gutenberg. Just a couple thoughts. Ami Silberman ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Nov 86 0916-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #372 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 5 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 372 Today's Topics: Books - Brin (2 msgs) & Donaldson & Hubbard & Leiber & Morressy & Spinrad & Steakley & Post Holocaust Novels (2 msgs) & Werewolves ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Nov 86 14:20:34 GMT From: ihuxz!rls@rutgers.rutgers.edu (r.l. schieve) Subject: Is Brin running out of ideas? First let me say that I just finished reading "The Postman" and enjoyed it just as much as the other works by David Brin. I hope he keeps up the good work. However, while reading "The Postman" I kept having this nagging feeling that it had much in common with something else I had read recently. It slapped me in the face when I finished the book and read the acknowledgements in the back. The first person on the list was Dean Ing. The only two books I have read by Ing are "Wild Country" and its predecessor "Single Combat". One follows the other in its tale of post holocaust western US. Not immediate post holocaust like "Lucifer's Hammer" but down the line a ways when things are starting the be put back together. Sound familiar? Also, in Ings books, are extraordinary, possibly "augmented" characters which also sounds very familiar. Considering the wide imaginative range that Brin's previous books covered, is he running out of ideas to the point of following another authors ideas or did Ing writings give Brin an urge to write a post holocaust book? Anyone know any details of why Brin acknowledged Ing? Rick Schieve ...ihnp4!ihuxz!rls ------------------------------ Date: Mon 3 Nov 86 22:44:58-PST From: SUZY@USC-ECLC.ARPA Subject: "The Postman" by D. Brin "The Postman" by David Brin A Book Review This is one of those few book that you'll want to plan a block of time within which to read it -- in one sitting if at all possible! I unfortunately had to use two due to a cold (cough, sniff). It is probably the best book that Brin has written so far, and I liked the others. If you didn't care much for Flipper meets Cheetah in space (Startide Rising) or extraterrestrial broccoli (Sundiver), this one is still a must. Anyone interested in a good, fast paced story where the hero tries his darndest not to be one is advised to beg, borrow or "liberate" this book. ***SPOILER*** The setting is America after the holocaust, both nuclear and manmade. Our hero is the mild mannered (for the times at least) Gordon Krantz. He starts out by telling the lie that he's a real Postman and Federal Inspector as a ruse to gain lodging and food from the various hamlets encountered in a search for "something better"; and through a series of skirmishes with other survivors, his conscience and an innate idealism ends up believing his own lies, all the while knowing that they remain falsehoods. He's got real faults and good points, as well as being compassionate in an age where compassion isn't considered a valuable trait for survival, and manages to survive anyhow. About the only characters I found fault with were the augments; they didn't quite seem real, or necessary. But who knows what the genegineers will have come up with by 2000. ***END SPOILER*** So, read this one and enjoy, it's worth the grumbles given at any interruptions. Susan Musil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 86 15:03:39 GMT From: Keith Dale <kdale@bbncc-eur.ARPA> Subject: Donaldson's new book I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this yet, but Stephen Donaldson has come out with a new book - "The Mirror of her Dreams". It appears to be the first of a new series (makes no pretense at being part of a trilogy) called "Mordant's Need", and Thomas Covenant does not appear in it (!). It is hard cover, of course, with 658 pages, and the copy I have is a British edition - I picked it up in London about three weeks ago. I haven't read it yet (it's next on my list), but for you die-hard Donaldson fans I've reproduced the dust cover blurb below. I'll offer a review shortly. "The story of Terisa and Geraden began very much like a fable. She was a princess in a high tower. He was a hero come to rescue her... She was held prisoner by enchantment. He was a fearless breaker of enchantments. "As in all the fables, they were make for each other." 'But their story was not that simple. Terisa Morgan was plucked from a life of wealthy dreariness in New York City by Geraden, the oldest ever apprentice to the congery of Imagers in the threatened land of Mordant. Terisa's inexperience and Geraden's ineptitude made them unlikely champions for Mordant in the desperate hour of her need. 'Yet the compelling sound of horns in her dream that drew her away from her existing life, and the swirling images in his mirror that pushed Geraden her way could not be denied. For Mordant was directed by the skill of the Imagers with their mirrors, and they now pointed to a champion who would come to save them. 'The threat to Mordant is dire indeed, and comes from within the kingdom as well as from the reappearance of the arch-Imager Vagel and the invading hordes of Cadwal. Suspicion is rife in the fortress of Orison at the heart of King Joyse's Mordant. Just who is friend and who is foe in this confusing land of conjured images in unclear. Somehow Terisa and Geraden must find a way through the many treacherous traps laid for them, and must escape unharmed, too, from the fierce attacks of a mysterious figure in black.' Keith ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 86 22:10:53 GMT From: amdahl!kim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kim DeVaughn) Subject: Re: l. ron hubbard From: S6VYJE%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU > I would appreciate seeing reviews of _Battlefield earth_ and the > five published books of the _mission earth_ dekalogy. if such > have already appeared on the net, could someone please mail > directly to me. are they worth reading? buying used? buying > new? even, buying hardcover? Does anyone know how many of the Mission Earth dekalogy Hubbard wrote before his death? I've only seen the 1st four at B. Dalton's or Cole's, but according to the above, there must be at least one other volume. I was thinking about starting to read Mission Earth, but haven't since I heard of Hubbard's death. I really liked Battlefield Earth ... have read it twice. Lots of subplots, lots of action, and well-paced. Unlike most books of that size, it never seemed to "go flat" or "dry", and the ending didn't seem like the author just got tired of writing (as it seems so many recent books tend to do). Recommended! kim UUCP: {sun,decwrl,hplabs,pyramid,ihnp4,seismo,oliveb}!amdahl!kim DDD: 408-746-8462 USPS: Amdahl Corp. M/S 249, 1250 E. Arques Av, Sunnyvale, CA 94086 CIS: 76535,25 ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 86 18:54:30 GMT From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: Khyber Connection If you *really* want to read the "Let's change the past to suit ourselves with the aegis of some temporal agency", then throw away your Poul Anderson "Time Patrol" series, burn Robert Silverberg's "Up the Line", and avoid Gordon Dickson's efforts. Forget all about them. Then buy, borrow, or steal Fritz Leiber's "Change War", and prepare for a rather oblique look at time travel and changing the past. My favorites were "A Deskful of Girls" and the last story, which dealt with a Shakespeare company playing on the green in Central Park. The first story is rather standard, and introduces this collection and gives some idea of the major players (the "Snakes" and the "Spiders"). From then on, though... this guy deserves every award he gets! ....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: 4 Nov 86 01:05:26 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: john morressy > John Morressy is an author who started out with Playboy Press > writing what I can only describe as hard-core fantasy, really epic > battles of good vs. evil with magic heroes and heroic mages. I don't think so; his early books are: STARBRAT (Walker, 1972) NAIL DOWN THE STARS (a.k.a. STARDRIFT) (Walker, 1973) UNDER A CALCULATING STAR (Doubleday, 1975) WINDOWS OF FORVER (Walker, 1975) THE HUMANS OF ZIAX II (Walker, 1975) (Juvenile) A LAW FOR THE STARS (Laser, 1976) FROST WORLD & DREAM FIRE (Doubleday, 1977) EXTRATERRITORIAL (Laser, 1977) None are Playboy Press and if I recall STARBRAT correctly (it's been a while) it was straight SF. > now, Morressy has written two other books, _Frostworld and > Dreamfire_ with Playboy, and _The Mansions of Space_ with Ace. As I said, FROST WORLD & DREAM FIRE is old, not new, and was originally printed by Doubleday. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 86 09:43:42 est From: firth@sei.cmu.edu Subject: Child of Fortune Child of Fortune Norman Spinrad ** Warning: this review contains spoiler material and explicit literary criticism. ** Part One "This too is a histoire of that archetype as it is incarnated in our own era: the Child of Fortune whom we have all been or will become. But herein will the detached observer shed all pretense of objectivity, for this is MY name tale's story, this is MY wanderjahr's song" And so, in the introduction to this 500 page book, we are placed at once on firm ground. This is to be a novel written in the first person - less usual in SF than in other genres. Moreover, the narrator is the protagonist, which is customary but not essential: recall Melville's Ishmael. Finally, what we have here is an example of the type of novel called, formally, a Bildungsroman: a novel of character development, specifically of the transition from youth to adulthood, told in terms of the events that mediated this development. The most famous novel of this form is Wilhelm Meister, which established the ground rules and hence may be called canonical. There must be a central character, whom the story is about. It must treat of the evolution of the character in response to external events, or, more specifically, in response to the human content of those events. This is an ambitious task. The reader must sympathise with the character, and must become engaged with that character's adventures and reactions. But, more important, the development of the character must be psychologically plausible, and also a response to events that are logically plausible. The author must run in parallel two threads, governed by two quite different kinds of causality. When this genre is transferred to SF, a new element appears. The events occur not in our own mileau but in another, and the author must use those events also to describe to us the imaginary world he is constructing. This raises the problem that, borrowing an analogy from another art form, I shall call the relation between 'figure' and 'ground' - the world in which the adventure is set must complement, and not overwhelm, the character who navigates it. The first major novel to essay this task is Hesse's Das Glasperlenspiel, but in my view it is deeply flawed. SF examples that come to mind are Panshin's Rite of Passage and (more lightweight) Heinlein's Podkayne of Mars. There are many more; the Bildungsroman is a natural mode of writing SF, since the reader cast into the new world is necessarily a neophyte, and can therefore readily identify with a naive character. Spinrad's universe is the 'Second Starfaring Age', the setting also for The Void Captain's Tale. In it, humankind has spread to the stars and colonised many planets, using a stardrive filched from aliens offstage, that nobody understands. There have been social changes, of which the most significant is perhaps that, in OUR terms, everyone is immensely rich - just as, in terms of a mediaeval peasant, everyone in this nation is immensely rich. His protagonist, Wendi Shasta Leonardo, is female. She reaches adolescence, leaves home, wanders about, meets people, has adventures, grows up, and tells us about it. This is how most young folk in that society behave; they are called Children of Fortune and their rite of passage is the Wanderjahr, and the debt Spinrad owes to Hesse is clear. Well, if the above makes you eager to read the book, go ahead. The majority opinion is that it's great, and you'll probably enjoy it a lot. Should you care about my own opinion, it is in Part Two of this long review. Robert Firth ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 86 14:56:54 GMT From: ihuxz!rls@rutgers.rutgers.edu (r.l. schieve) Subject: Anyone read John Steakley? I have recently read and enjoyed "Armor" by John Steakley. The book was published in 1984. In a nutshell: Humanity (sometime in the future) is at war with a large insect-like race. The insects are huge, their planets atmosphere is poisonous and full of junk that inhibits the use of radio and radar over distances and their population is fantastic and attacks suicidally. Humanities best mode of fighting is to teleport its warriors to the surface equipped with superhuman "Armor". The ferocity and numbers of the "Bugs" makes it hell for the humans. The story follows the life of one soldier who keeps miraculously being the last or almost last survivor of raid after raid. He suffers from two contrasting personalities. One is always unsure and afraid (human) and the other is a killing machine that keeps him alive again and again. I really enjoyed the book and have not seen anything else by John Steakley, has anyone else? Rick Schieve ..ihnp4!ihuxz!rls ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 86 12:28:16 EST From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: post-holocaust (Pangborn et al) In the same universe as DAVEY but earlier (the lead was a teenager when the bombs came) and much bitterer is COMPANY OF GLORY. There are pointers to both Nikki's society and the brutal ones of the Hudson lake. The oldest post-Holocaust work in SF (other writers have dipped in this branch occasionally, e.g. S V Benet's "The Waters of Babylon") is probably Nelson Bond, who wrote a series of novelets set in a p-H matriarchy; I think these date from the 30's. Poul Anderson probably has the most-organized p-H world (he's been quoted that his primary future history is obsolete because World War III didn't happen on schedule), starting with TWILIGHT'S CHILDREN (?? that's \not/ the right title but my mind is blank this morning; I'm not even sure this can fit the history because it may end with a colony on Mars and nobody left on Earth) and continued as a background for several shorts and at least one other novel, THERE WILL BE TIME, before being featured in ORION SHALL RISE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 86 17:27:53 PST From: raoul@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA Subject: Post Holocaust stories I'm surprised nobody mentioned "Level 7" by Mor??? (memory fading). The story includes the time before, during and after a nuclear war. Very depressing story AND very good. Al ------------------------------ Date: 2 Nov 86 17:59:34 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: re: Wolfman story request >Probably the most famous old werewolf story is (and shame on you, >Mark Leeper, for not remembering this one!) WAGNER, THE WEHR-WOLF >by G.W.M. Reynolds, originally published in 1848. Dover Books >reprinted it in 1976, and it's quite likely that it's still in >print from them. Shame on me indeed. I even have a copy. I will say, however, that I am not sure that this is really a novel of "classic." I had heard about VARNEY THE VAMPYRE for years before Dover published it. Not so with WAGNER. I sort of suspect that it was pretty obscure until Dover Books resurrected it. You have better info on literature, what do you think? Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Nov 86 2020-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #373 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 7 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 373 Today's Topics: Books - Eddings (3 msgs) & Hubbard & Lichtenberg & Roshwald (3 msgs) & Steakley & Wolfe & Sentient Computer Novels & Post Holocaust Story ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Nov 86 20:52:27 GMT From: luth2!d2c-mt@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Belgariad by David Eddings lawitzke@msudoc.UUCP (John Lawitzke) writes: >I recently finished reading The Belgariad by David Eddings and >would like to highly recommend it to anyone who has the time to >read it. > >The Belgariad consists of five books: Pawn of Prophecy, Queen of >Sorcery, Magician's Gambit, Castle of Wizardry, and Enchanter's End >Game. The story is about a boy named Garion. He grew up on a farm >and is about 12 years old when the story begins. As the story >progresses it turns out that is is the sole hope for the survival >of mankind. I can't say anymore without revealing the story, but I >found it to be very compelling reading. Well, the Belgariad isn't really the best series around. I'd say the story is fairly simple to figure out ahead (won't give any spoilers for those who'd like read the books anyway) and the books could just as well have been called 'The hitch-hikers guide to <Whatever Eddings called his world, I can't remember>'. During the five books, you get to see each one of the countries, one ofter the other, and about the same amount of space is spent on each of them. At the end of the story there is hardly a spot on the enclosed map where the characters haven't travelled. What *is* good about the story, are the characters. I really like the personalities, complete with pride, fear, strength and mortality. Also Eddings has some great ideas on different countries, social ways etc. Summary: Characters good, setting good, story mediocre. On the whole, the books might still be worth reading, though. Mikko Tyolajarvi ...!seismo!mcvax!enea!luth!d2c-mt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Nov 86 17:54:45 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Belgariad: a different view For those who haven't read "The Belgariad", and have been looking at the recommendations that have appeared on this list, I present a bit of a case for the other side. I'm afraid I can't really join the enthusiasts who praise it. I read it once at a friend's insistence (he claimed, I'm sorry to say, that it was better than "Lord of the Rings" -- and I found it to be very similar to other stories of which that claim is made). The story is interesting, and reasonably well planned, though not everything related seems necessary to it. Certainly there have been few, if any, fantasies written in 5 books which have maintained such consistency of purpose clear through from the beginning of the first to the end of the fifth. The style, however, frequently gets in the way. Time and again I'd find an unnecessary phrase that I wanted to delete to make the prose flow more smoothly, or a trite expression that I wanted to replace with something less painfully glaring. It has been mentioned before on this net that one sign of competent writing is that the story seems to unfold itself before you, and you remain almost unconscious of the actual words themselves. I was unhappily conscious of the words during most of the story. Nor did many of the characters seem to me to be much more than stock figures, saying such things as you would expect stock figures to say. (I'm afraid examples here would spoil the story for the people I'm talking to.) The three main characters I find moderately well drawn, but no more. The central one doesn't grow nearly enough, considering what he goes through; the other two, considering their respective histories, should have depths to them far greater than anything we see in the story. I don't know whether it's because the author doesn't have a feeling for all the many things that make up a complete person, or simply that his writing skills aren't up to the task of reporting them. But I did feel that much needed exploring that didn't get it. Finally, the great climax (and there is certainly plenty of room for, and anticipation of, a *GREAT* climax) seems to fall down and come to surprisingly little, just when you were expecting it to reach its peak. It could have been an event of the magnitude of Sauron's final defeat in the Lord of the Rings, when all Mordor swayed and trembled; and it would have been enormously satisfying that way. But it never seems to rise even close to that, and I feel the lack acutely. Well, that's my feeling. I know others feel quite differently. But I think that people seeing recommendations for this story should know that there is at least one lover of fantasies who does not find it up to snuff. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 12:00:45 PST From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) To: hplabs!hpfcla!hpltcb!marc@Sun.COM Subject: Re: Belgariad by David Eddings >Has Eddings written anything else since the Belgariad? His new series (set in the same world, after the time of the Belgariad) is due to be published starting early next year. chuq ------------------------------ Date: 5 Nov 86 17:07:42 GMT From: sdcrdcf!alanm@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Alan Morrissett) Subject: Re: l. ron hubbard >Does anyone know how many of the Mission Earth dekalogy Hubbard >wrote before his death? I've only seen the 1st four at B. Dalton's >or Cole's, but according to the above, there must be at least one >other volume. I was thinking about starting to read Mission Earth, >but haven't since I heard of Hubbard's death. My step-son worked for a while as a "gofer" at the company that publishes these. He saw the manuscripts for at least three of the the volumes a year before the first one came out, and says that they were coming in at a regular and rapid rate. >I really liked Battlefield Earth ... have read it twice. Lots of >sub- plots, lots of action, and well-paced. Unlike most books of >that size, it never seemed to "go flat" or "dry", and the ending >didn't seem like the author just got tired of writing (as it seems >so many recent books tend to do). Recommended! I have enjoyed the first five volumes of Mission Earth. There is an occasional slow spot, but I've found that it always picks up again. The 'flavor' differs a little from Battlefield Earth in that it is more clearly a vehicle for social commentary. Alan Morrissett ------------------------------ Date: 5 Nov 86 07:06:15 PST (Wednesday) Subject: Sime/Gen novels From: "Mary_Jo_DiBella.henr801E"@Xerox.COM In the area of post-holocaust novels, I'd recommend Jacqueline Lichtenberg's Sime/Gen series (starting with "House of Zeor"). This group of books is, though, very post-holocaust. The human race has evolved into two distinct forms. Our world (1986) is referred to in passing as 'The Time of The Ancients'. The series deals with the efforts of the two new forms of life to live together and evolve a new society. The Simes are humans who have evolved with tentacles on their arms and an inborn shortage of something Lichtenberg calls 'Selyn', which appears to be a basic life-force. They can use the tentacles to take that life force from the Gens (the other half of the human race, whose bodies manufacture Selyn), and it can be done without harm to the Gens but at the time of the first book the technique for doing that is not known. Gens are raised like cattle and Simes kill them taking Selyn. There is a whole series (I think 5-6 books) built on this premise and I found it fascinating seeing the society grow from the beginning barbarism through the last books, in which both forms of life live together and use things like 'Selyn Batteries' to power their vehicles. Our (1986) society occasionally intrudes as characters explore 'ancient cities' and discover technology that's gradually brought to their world. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Nov 86 09:07:35 GMT From: trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent) Subject: Re: Post-holocaust stories I'm somewhat surprised that no one has mentioned "Emergence" by David R. Palmer yet. It's got a dynamite (if perhaps a bit unbelievable) protagonist, is quite well (over?) written and keeps you on the edge of your nightstand until you finally have to put it down because it's over. (even then, the profound shock running up and down your spine may paralyse you sufficiently that you can't let it go...) In case you didn't notice, I remotely enjoyed this book ;-) I've not been reading sf-lovers for a while, but I'm certain it has been reviewed numerous times on the net, so I'll spare you. ray trent@csvax.caltech.edu rat@caltech.bitnet ...seismo!cit-vax!trent ------------------------------ Date: 5 Nov 86 05:59:32 GMT From: styx!mcb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch) Subject: Re: Post Holocaust stories raoul@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA writes: >I'm surprised nobody mentioned "Level 7" by Mor??? (memory fading). >The story includes the time before, during and after a nuclear war. >Very depressing story AND very good. Roshwald, Mordecai. LEVEL 7. Signet/NAL P3904 (1959). Paperback, 143pp. The hardcover was published by McGraw-Hill, but I've never seen a copy. The dedication is to "Dwight and Nikita", and the back cover blurbs are by Linus Pauling and Bertrand Russell. It's a short novel, and very worthwhile if you can find it. Does anybody know of anything else by Roshwald? Is he still around? Michael C. Berch ARPA: (for now) mcb@lll-crg.arpa UUCP: ...!lll-lcc!styx!mcb ...!lll-crg!styx!mcb ...!ihnp4!styx!mcb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 86 00:28:53 est From: Antonio Leal <abl@ohm.ECE.CMU.EDU> Subject: Plan 7 From an almost 20 year old memory: the author was Mordecai Roshwald, an Israeli, I believe. The novel might also be titled "Level 7" (translated titles again). It isn't exactly post-holocaust, as pointed out; it's more about the life in a deeply buried nuclear strike command post, up till the bitter end. Interesting concept: the personnel were there *for keeps*, and expected to survive as in a generation ship, up to 500 years. The level numbers referred to depth and function: level 7 was the deepest, with offensive strike functions; level 6 was next up, with defensive ABM functions. Impressive story (or my memory of earlier reads is better), and very depressing, especially for the kid I was. Worthy of a reprint too. Tony abl@ohm.ece.cmu.edu ECE Dept., Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA 15213 ------------------------------ Date: 4 Nov 86 16:44:59 GMT From: milano!wex@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Anyone read John Steakley? rls@ihuxz.UUCP (r.l. schieve) writes: > I have recently read and enjoyed "Armor" by John Steakley. > The book was published in 1984. > [...] > I really enjoyed the book and have not seen anything else by > John Steakley, has anyone else? A few months back I met Steakley at a mincon here in Austin. He is a Dallas native who used to earn a living writing movie scripts (mostly horror or horror/sf). For these, he got paid on delivery. However, about two years ago he got tired of not having any of his scripts see production (I think the final straw was when they chose someone else's script for Texas Chainsaw Massacre II). So he quit doing scripts and sat down to write Armor. He has no other books out, but is currently writing a novel about vampires (he read me the first paragraph and it sounds *good*). I also sat at the bar with him and watched him negotiate the game rights for Armor with someone whom I think was from Steve Jackson Games (of Car Wars fame - based in Austin). Alan Wexelblat ARPA: WEX@MCC.ARPA or WEX@MCC.COM UUCP: {seismo,harvard,gatech,pyramid}!ut-sally!im4u!milano!wex ------------------------------ Date: 5 Nov 86 20:27:00 GMT From: rtm@cbosgd.ATT.COM (Randy Murray) Subject: _Free Live Free_ free recommend I just finished Gene Wolfe's _Free Live Free_. I tried for months to get a copy and the paperback just came out. Now for my partially weird recommendation: I liked it. Hell, I enjoyed it. But you (yes you) probably won't like it. This is a book for those you love reading. I didn't say people who love science fiction, fantasy, etc . . . This is a book much like (although not at all like) _Peace_. If you can take a book and put it aside until you have the time, sit and relax, listen to the story (yes I mean listen), think, and most of all, not read to much at a time you might try _Free Live Free_. However, if you are the type that has to read something once it's in your hands and stay up till you drop, you may not care for this or any other of Wolfe's books. Wolfe's writing is, for me, thought provoking and, well for lack of better words, soothing. I'm not a big enough snob about literature to read things just because someone says I should. I read what I want. Fortunately, the more I read, the more I want to know, so I end up wanting to read most things that people say I should. There are very few things I regret having wasted my time on. On the other hand, while hungry for science fiction I find that I read a lot and sometimes go for long periods unsatisfied. I've heard some complain that Wolfe is to much work, but I really believe that this comes form that headlong rush to absorb plot and adventure. If you can sit by the fireside and dream away as the storyteller weaves his convoluted story, you may get something out of Wolfe's work. I have his newest _Soldier of the Mist_, but I'm tempted just to hold it (though I doubt that I will) until the remainder is published. Here's one final test: If you can read _Godel, Esher, and Bach_ and I mean read it with enjoyment and understanding, then you MAY enjoy Wolfe. No comments about intellect or taste, because frankly I don't put much stock in what some people will label them. Just don't bother with this book unless you are really inclined, not because someone told you that if you were smart and had good taste you would. If you want to give Wolfe a short term and interesting trial read _The Island of Dr. Death and Other Stories and Other Stories_. Randal T. Murray cbosgd!rtm AT&T Bell Laboratories 6200 E. Broad, Columbus, OH 43213 PH(614)860-5895 ------------------------------ Date: 5 Nov 86 23:45:05 GMT From: ut-ngp!gknight@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Gary Knight) Subject: Canonical list of sentient computer novels I am trying to compile a canonical list of SF *novels* dealing with (1) sentient computers, and (2) human mental access to computers or computer networks. Examples of the two categories (and my particular favorites as well) are: A) SENTIENT COMPUTERS The Adolescence of P-1, by Thomas J. Ryan Valentina: Soul in Sapphire, by Joseph H. Delaney and Marc Stiegler Cybernetic Samurai, by (I forget) Coils, by Roger Zelazny B) HUMAN ACCESS True Names, by Vernor Vinge Neuromancer and Count Zero, by William Gibson I'm not sure how this is done, but my thought is for all of you sf-fans out there to send me e-mail lists of such novels (separate, by category A and B), and I'll compile and post the ultimate canonical version. I've heard that this exercise was undertaken a year or so ago, but I don't have access to that list and besides I'd like to get fresh input anyway (and recent qualifying books). So let me hear from you . . . . Gary Knight 3604 Pinnacle Road Austin, TX 78746 (512/328-2480) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 08:07 PST From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Post Holocaust short story In the Third Best of Omni there is a wonderful story called "Men Like Us" where some mutants go around preventing the resurrection of the nuclear menace. Good stuff, but short. The whole book is very good, since it includes a number of other good stories by various authors, including Saberhagen with a berzerker and Sherlock Holmes story. Jon ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Nov 86 2028-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #374 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 7 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 374 Today's Topics: Music - Canonical SF Music List ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Oct 86 20:04:48 GMT From: unc!melnick@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Alex Melnick) Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List Is anybody collecting these? I hope so. I'd like to see the cumulative list. Here are my additions (plus I think some duplications with previous postings, but I'm not sure): New England: "L-5". Produced by Todd Rundgren. Peter Schilling: *Error in the System* (originally titled "Fehler im System") includes "Major Tom (Coming Home)" which is not a sequel to, but a re-telling of, "Space Oddity", also "The Noah Plan" (about an exodus from Earth), "Error in the System" (Earth as lost interstellar colony), and others. *Things to Come* includes "Zone 804" (aliens come to bring peace) and "Lone Survivor" (man hides in bomb shelter, but war is averted; he's stuck). Nena: "99 Luftballons" (WW3 & aftermath) The Who: "905" from *Who Are You* (the life of a clone) Pat Benatar: "My Clone Sleeps Alone" Nilsson: "Spaceman" Elton John: "Rocket Man (I Think It's Going to Be a Long, Long Time)" ELO: "Mission (A World's Record)", "Dreaming of 4000", "10538 Overture", "King of the Universe" M: *The Official Secrets Act* (an innocent gets caught up in government plots and secret police, a la 1984) Rolling Stones: "2000 Man" (life in the 21st century and kids still don't understand parents) The Move: "Yellow Rainbow" (either about LSD or saving the world from holocaust, I'm not sure which) The Buggles: "Video Killed the Radio Star" ("They took the credit for your second symphony,/Rewritten by machine on new technology.") Styx: *Kilroy Was Here* (The U.S. is taken over by the Moral Majority, rock music is banned, and robots are used to keep the populace in line.) Violinski: "No Cause for Alarm" (WW3 breaks out in your neighborhood) Bob Dylan: "Talkin' World War III Blues" Queen: *Flash Gordon* soundtrack Alice Cooper: "I'm Flash" ("and I'm a hero./My spaceship flies the red, white and blue.") The Byrds: "Hey, Mr. Spaceman" XTC: "Reel by Reel" (the government can hear and record your thoughts) David Bowie: "Five Years" Credence Clearwater Revival: "Who'll Stop the Rain" (The more I hear this, the more I'm convinced it's post-holocaust.) Cheap Trick: "Dream Police" Alex ...!mcnc!unc!melnick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 86 08:30:42 -0500 From: Bev Sobelman <bhs@mitre-bedford.ARPA> Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List As long as we're all chipping in, how about a not-very-memorable song called 'I am Your Robot' off of Elton John's 'Jump Up' album? (Not the caliber of 'Rocket Man,' for certain, but I think it qualifies.) Bev Sobelman bhs@mtire-bedford.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 30 Oct 86 09:44:44 GMT From: jml@cs.strath.ac.uk (Joseph McLean) Subject: sf/fantasy music In the listing of definitive sf/fantasy orientated music given by jaffe@red.rutgers.edu,mention is made of Steve Hackett,and the fact that he has had only one solo album. In fact Steve Hackett made 5 solo albums of which four are 1)Voyage of the Acolyte 2)Spectral Mornings 3)Defector 4)Cured. before forming the group GTR with Steve Howe (the greatest guitarist in the world and formerly of YES,the greatest group in the world,and more recently with Asia).There are many fantasy-oriented tracks on the above albums.In particular,Voyage of the Acolyte is a collection of songs based on the Tarot,the full list being a)Star of Sirius b)The Hands of the Princess c)A Tower struck down d)The Lovers e)The Hermit f)The Shadow of the Hierophant g)Ace of Wands. Note:This isn't the correct ordering of the tracks. I suppose this ties in with all the postings on the Tarot that appeared a few months ago. jml. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Oct 86 22:10:00 GMT From: mic!d25001@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List As have several others, I wonder what aspect of this list qualifies it as canonical. It seems to have nothing to do with artillery or the clergy, nor do the pieces listed seem to use the musical 'canon' form ( which would have made the title "The Canonic SF Music List" in any case :-). That leaves "orthodox" and "simplest schema" as possible definitions and neither seems terribly supportable. I suspect that it is 'really' intended only to mean 'complete', which is a quite hopeless task as several followup postings have already demonstrated. Indeed whole classes of music are sparsely represented. One is tempted to think that 'canonical' means no more that 'what I like'. There are only one or two soundtrack albums mentioned here. Why? Are "Star Wars", "Star Trek I, II, etc." "Superman", etc. intentionally being snubbed or what? Indeed, the so called "Classical" musics are completely missing unless: >Thus Sprach Zarathustra: >2001 theme. is intended as reference to the tone poem by Richard Strauss. (For all I know there may be a group by that name. I am pretty sure that the "H. P. Lovecraft" in the list is NOT the Providence SF writer who died in 1937.) If the Strauss work is what is intended, the title should either be all German ("Also sprach Zarathustra") or all English ("Thus Spoke Zarathustra"). Why not classical music? There are literally hundreds of 19th century works by major and minor composers with supernatural themes. Wagner's Ring operas have a plot that would do many a paperback sword and sorcery book proud, with gods, demigods, dragons and a barbarian hero in a fur jock-strap! Or how about Karl-Birger Blomdahl's opera "Aniara" (1959)? The action of this work takes place entirely on a space ship. Gives a whole new meaning to the term "space opera". :-) Carrington Dixon UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!mic!d25001 ------------------------------ Date: 30 Oct 86 18:08:06 GMT From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: Cannonical SF Music List (Saga) The old '70s Canadian group "FM" did the same sort of thing with their "Black Noise" album, which dealt with such things as relativity and suspended animation. But I bought the album for the music. ....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 86 09:01 EST From: PAOLINO%UMDC.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Cannonical SF Music List Some additions, without regard to quality... Bowie, Diamond Dogs (1974, Mainman/RCA) This album has a general post-holocaust theme, with tales of mutant transvestites, Big Brother, and, of course, the Ever Circling Human Skeletal Family. Paul Kantner - Rhythym guitarist and founding member of Jefferson Airplane, continued on far into the pablum period of Jefferson Starship. From the Crown of Creation album (1968) onwards, the bulk of his output concerns SF themes. Sunfighter (1971) and Baron von Tollbooth and the Chrome Nun (1973) (Paul Kantner / Grace Slick collaborations) are non-Jefferson anything albums and contain some of this stuff. The sequel to his 'Blows Against the Empire' was released last year, I think, but I don't recall the title. All selections released by RCA/Grunt. The Who, Who's Next (Decca, now MCA, c. 1971) Some of the songs on this album were part of a soundtrack for a SF movie (titled, I think 'Lifeboat') conceived by Pete Townsend and John Entwhistle, although it's certainly not apparent from the lyrics. The movie was never made. Dan Paolino ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 86 11:18 CST From: Wilcox@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Music List for SF Another addition to the list is a group called "Manheim SteamRoller" and their FreshAire series of albums. Fresh Aire V's theme is "HARD" SF the others (I-IV) can be considered fantasy related. There is a sixth album out, but I haven't any idea the theme. As an additional note, Manhiem Steamroller will be performing in Minneapolis on December 5,6,7 mail to me for Further Info. Craig Wilcox@HI-MULTICS {...}!umn-cs!hi-csc!wilcox ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 86 20:27:35 -0800 From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> >> Richard Strauss: Also Sprach Zarathustra (English: "Thus Spake >> Zarathustra") >> Gyorgi Ligetti: Atmospheres >> Gyorgi Ligetti (I think): Lux Aeterna ("Light Eternal") >If *this* stuff counts, how about > Strauss' "Blue Danube" (2001) > Beethoven's 9th Symphony (Clockwork Orange) > Most of Walter/Wendy Carlos' stuff (Tron, Clockwork Orange) > Vangelis (or was his already mentioned?) > Jerry Goldsmith, John Williams, (James?) Horner and the ever popular > Alexander Courage If you wave flags of this colour in front of bulls, you must not be surprised when they charge. What, precisely, is "*this* stuff" supposed to mean? That you regard the work of serious 19th and 20th century composers (18th, in Beethoven's case) used to enhance sf films as less worthy of notice than that of a plethora of rock bands? I hope not, but if so, I disagree utterly. Thank you for reminding me of Blue Danube: though I usually let it pass, its use in 2001 was inspired, just beautiful. (Of course, everybody knows it is by Johann Strauss, Jr., of Vienna, no relation to Richard Strauss of Germany, "Zarathustra"'s composer. Don't they?) I also forgot that the first scenes of the Discovery, and Poole jogging in the carousel, were described by a number from Aram Khatchaturian's ballet Gayaneh (I'm thinking it was an Adagio number, but with Albinoni/Giazotto running through my head, I may be misled). The Beethoven 9th hardly got a fair hearing in Clockwork Orange, since it was at best played in pieces. Nor do I think, now that I recall, that the first 3 movements were ever played at all. The symphony was in any case much more part of the plot than description of the film. You could with more justice cite Giachomo (sp?) Rossini's William Tell overture. And, of course, the composer of "Singing in the Rain". I always remember Gene Kelly singing it, but I'm blessed if I can remember who wrote it. List the Carlos' if you want. I daresay they've worked for it. Personally, I much prefer Isao Tomita when it comes to imaginative use of the synthesiser. But I can't recall his doing anything for any SF pictures. (More the other way around: prepending a synthesised launching sequence to "Mars" in Gustav Holst's "Planets Suite". Got him into such trouble with Holst's estate that the recording was banned in Canada). I have never heard of anybody named Vangelis, so I'll withhold comment. Goldsmith, Courage, Williams, et al., certainly seem to be staples, and I daresay they belong in a list of composers of sf music. I seldom tire of letting Vader's theme run through my head, for instance. Strong, compelling music. But to suggest that they belong in a group with the likes of the Strauss'es, Beethoven, Khatchaturian, and Ligeti hardly seems correct. >Are you sure we ain't getting a little silly, here? I frequently get rather silly, but seldom in the matter of music. Surely you don't mean that the inclusion of 19th and 20th century masters in this list is silly, so I have to ask what you are referring to. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 4 Nov 86 16:45:34 GMT From: calmasd.CALMA!gail@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Gail Hanrahan) Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List I don't remember seeing anyone mention Larry Fast (or the group Synergy). Fast did a soundtrack for an unreleased SF movie called "The Jupiter Project". Synergy has done several mostly-synthesized, vaguely SF-ish albums. Gail Bayley Hanrahan {ihnp4,decvax,ucbvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!gail ------------------------------ Date: 6 Nov 86 03:06:03 GMT From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List From: milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU >List the Carlos' if you want. I daresay they've worked for it. Just a side comment. Wendy Carlos is the same person that Walter used to be. That is to say that Walter had a sex-change operation in order to become Wendy. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 86 18:15:59 GMT From: rsk@j.cc.purdue.edu (Wombat) Subject: Final call for SF-music contributions First of all, a big thanks to everyone who *mailed* along new additions to the list, and/or helpful comments about existing entries. These responses have now dropped to a level which makes it reasonable for me to begin editing together a new version of the list--but before I do, I wanted to make one final call for contributions. Therefore, if you have additions/corrections to the previously posted SF-music mishmash list, please send them along via mail to me, and I'll be happy to incorporate them in the new version. Cheers, Rich Kulawiec, rsk@j.cc.purdue.edu, j.cc.purdue.edu!rsk ------------------------------ Date: 5 Nov 86 16:34:03 GMT From: duke!crm@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> >What, precisely, is "*this* stuff" supposed to mean? That you >regard the work of serious 19th and 20th century composers (18th, >in Beethoven's case) used to enhance sf films as less worthy of >notice than that of a plethora of rock bands? I hope not, but if >so, I disagree utterly. I think the point is rather that Strauss, Strauss, etc. are *not* SF music simply because they happen to have been used in science fiction films. On the other hand, Goldsmith, Williams, and Courage all have written pieces specifically for science ficiton movies, and many of the other groups and individuals have written songs or other pieces with specifically SFnal ideas, titles, or themes. Both Beethoven and Richard Wagner wrote music that was used by the Nazis and German nationalists: but does that mean Beethoven is "Fascist music"? Nah. >Thank you for reminding me of Blue Danube: though I usually let it >pass, its use in 2001 was inspired, just beautiful. (Of course, >everybody knows it is by Johann Strauss, Jr., of Vienna, no >relation to Richard Strauss of Germany, "Zarathustra"'s composer. >Don't they?) Yes and no -- I'm pretty certain Richard Strauss was Johann's great-nephew. > List the Carlos' if you want. I daresay they've worked for it. Make that he/she has worked for it -- only one person, plus or minus a few ounces of tissue. >Goldsmith, Courage, Williams, et al., certainly seem to be staples, >and I daresay they belong in a list of composers of sf music. I >seldom tire of letting Vader's theme run through my head, for >instance. Strong, compelling music. But to suggest that they >belong in a group with the likes of the Strauss'es, Beethoven, >Khatchaturian, and Ligeti hardly seems correct. I suspect Williams's might stand the comparison well -- at least his Star Wars stuff. Some of his other compositions are a little too Schoenberg-like for my taste. >>Are you sure we ain't getting a little silly, here? > >I frequently get rather silly, but seldom in the matter of music. >Surely you don't mean that the inclusion of 19th and 20th century >masters in this list is silly, so I have to ask what you are >referring to. If I didn't think the whole theme of this note was amazingly obtuse, I wouldn't bother to argue. The point *I* think was intended is that including the Blue Danube, the Gayne Ballet, or for that matter *Singing In The Rain* in a list of science-fiction music, simply because it was once heard in an SF movie or mentioned in an SF book, is silly. And I agree. Charlie Martin ...mcnc!duke!crm ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Nov 86 2042-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #375 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 8 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 375 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Time Travel (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Nov 86 15:32:00 GMT From: utastro!ethan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ethan Vishniac) Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query silber@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu writes: > Any time between the 1st century BC, and the early 15th AD, in a > civilized area, one could probably make the greatest invention and > moneymaking idea of all, movable type...... > a) It draws upon available technology. (Metal casting, presses, > ink, paper.) (In a pinch one could use vellum or parchement, > the limiting factor in earlier times was lack of scribes.) > (Sufficiently early and removed from Egypt one might have to > invent paper, but that is not all that hard to do.) A nice idea, but a clarification is in order. Papyrus is *not* paper. I doubt its mechanical properties make it suitable for the printing press. Paper was invented by the Chinese and would have been available, in some places, throughout the time period you mention. Ethan Vishniac {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU Department of Astronomy University of Texas ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 13:00:57 EST From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) To: looking!brad@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: time travel suggestions I think most of these ideas are the sort of thing that only a polymath could succeed at. For instance, elevators had been around for quite some time (Thomas Jefferson "invented" the dumbwaiter); do you know what Otis \really/ invented? "...better nourished, stronger, and healthier..." ?? Well, see how long your nutritional history helps when you can't get sources of vitamin C every day; healthier is an aspect of both your history and the environment (are children today still getting protection against smallpox, measles, polio? did you? if not, how long before you get them (especially smallpox)?); and as for stronger, a lot of us spend too much time sitting on our asses in front of terminals and so probably are weaker and have less endurance than a medieval peasant. I also don't know how available short-term manual labor would be in a conservative culture; you might be taken for a potential thief if you, an unknown in funny clothes and a strange accent (or no local language!) went down to the docks to unload cargo, e.g. By and large, music was not a way to get rich. Handel had the favor of kings, but most other composers were poor---and why would a composer split with you if he has the skills? From my chorister's knowledge of music I'd say those skills were far more important to making a living than originality. If you invent electricity, what do people use it for? How do they get it--- Edison had the model of gas distribution (itself fairly new) to build on. Matches are a fairly sophisticated chemical stunt---probably far fewer people could make them from scratch than could produce gunpowder. Balloons have possibilities as a thrill ride---among the idle rich (good luck finding them and getting their attention) or for military reconnaissance (cf your remark about morals---and how do you get the generals to accept them (the military mind is notoriously conservative)?) A point in de Camp's favor is that Padway fell into a society he was already immensely knowledgeable about---more, a society that was decadent enough that anything novel appealed to it, and central enough that one man could have some leverage. Note also that Padway, being a historian, invented not a power telegraph (presumably having no knowledge of how to make even a modest battery) but a semaphore. Oil is useless until you develop uses for it---until it's distilled it smells far worse than coal or animal fat. Also, you won't have the technology to find and retrieve it in Texas---would you know where to find it easily? Would you know where to find gold in California without a modern map (try convincing an investor that you can find it or that you know where it is without having been there---or, if you were there, how you are here without witchcraft). Both of these go for diamonds, which were found on the surface by accident and are now intensively mined (do you even know what kimberlite looks like?). The copper in eastern Ontario is more likely to be valuable than the nickel in Sudbury, which I think is useful only in a metallurgical culture. (I'll allow that \you/ might be able to find Sudbury without a map, but getting there from either coast would be a major adventure.) Business---why would anyone trust a stranger? Why would merchants offer a money-back guarantee (unless you could become a merchant yourself and make more money than them by so offering---by the time you had leverage to do this you'd probably already be rich (otherwise you'd be working for someone---probably someone uninterested in yur wild ideas). Fads and fashions---why should anyone pay attention to you? There were fashions in those days, some of them quite bizarre, but the swing time was much longer and much more widely driven---today's situation, where a coterie of designers say hemlines will move or shoulders will be padded, is a recent anomaly (and arguably an indication of decadence). Flush toilets---that's one of the classics. Unfortunately, flow-through toilets are believed to have existed in Crete in 1500 BC and known to have been used by the educated (especially in monasteries and nunneries) in England in the Middle Ages, and anything else depends on pumped water and on some place for the sewage to go (houses in cities tended to have cesspits which were mucked out periodically). >You can hire the world's great minds when they are young and >unknown. Are you sure your interference won't turn them away? Do you know what \makes/ a great mind? If you tried to hire Einstein while he was still a patent clerk, would you get anything useful? > Be the patron of the world's great artists by getting in early. Ditto, only moreso---in all the arts luck (e.g., patronage) plays a large role. >Back all the right presidential candidates. You know who'll win. >Bet on them too, if you want, for your seed money. If you don't have seed money (or aren't a known gentleman), who'll bet with you? And do you know enough about elections in foreign countries (even England) to make any good bets? Also, all of these depend on \\communications//---they might work as early as 1800. >If you can't sing, you can also get seed money from storytelling. That I'll buy---cf de Camp's GOBLIN TOWER. But Jorian is already a skilled storyteller, which most people aren't. >If you can't write worth beans, find a young writer like Dickens or >whoever is around and team up. You're cultured, educated, literate >and full of ideas and admiration. They'll talk to you. Do you speak/read Latin? Greek? Have you read any of the authors \these/ people would admire? See also objections re music---"simply" putting the words down on paper in convincing order is by far the biggest part of the writer's job. (It's easy to tell the story of any "great" book in such a way that you'd never believe it became a respected work.) Or talk to any SF author and ask how many people have offered to give hem an idea for hem to write up in return for half the income---and step back quickly! (Arguably, SF is far more dependent on ideas than ]contemporary[ fiction, so you'd have even less luck in the past.) As a long-overdue closer, I point at the Bester story "5,271,009", in which somebody grows up abruptly by the systematic destruction of his childish dreams of triumph, including going back to his own youth with adult knowledge. Or at the many SF stories in which a capable person fails to make it in the past for reasons that are obvious when you know the culture (and not even obscure things like eating out of the common pot with your left hand among Arabs). LORD KALVAN OF OTHERWHEN is plausible precisely because Calvin is a military-history buff who also is skilled in personal combat (aside from vis@athena, how many people in his aikido classes (or, worse, Bruce Lee imitators, or mercenaries) know enough military history to be good commanders? how many history buffs are good fighters?); AND, he comes on a culture in sufficient stress that it will try anything for survival (the fact that the local forces whom he helps to drive off a raiding party are led by the heir-apparent doesn't hurt, but I suppose we can allow \one/ coincidence). Chip Hitchcock ARPA: CJH@CCA.CCA.COM uu: ...!{decvax!linus, seismo!harvard, cbosgd, caip!think}!cca!cjh ------------------------------ Date: 6 Nov 86 17:35:05 GMT From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query silber@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu writes: >Any time between the 1st century BC, and the early 15th AD, in a >civilized area, one could probably make the greatest invention and >moneymaking idea of all, movable type. I just saw James Burke's >"The Day the Universe Changed" (part 3) which discussed the effects >of printing upon society. The advantages of inventing the printing >press are as follows: >a) It draws upon available technology. (Metal casting, presses, > ink, paper.) (In a pinch one could use vellum or parchement, > the limiting factor in earlier times was lack of scribes.) > (Sufficiently early and removed from Egypt one might have to > invent paper, but that is not all that hard to do.) >b) The technology used comes from a variety of fields. One could > be a metal- worker, jeweler, paper-maker, scribe, government > official, etc. and come up with the idea and have the resources > to put it into action. >c) It is practically guranteed to make money, at least Europe. > Look what happened to Gutenberg. Then again, Gutenberg was a well-established member of the community, and had to step very carefully to get around Church opposition, which he did masterfully by spending years printing a Bible. And how do you think the scribes would react to all this? The position of scribe was respected and influential, and you could easily become wealthy and powerful with little work. Now some hot-shot comes around and threatens to make all this easier. And reduce your trade to one of, perhaps, just writing down words. There would be no decisions involved in deciding what was important enough to be copied; everything would be. Since you're powerful and conservative, you hire some thugs to make short shrift of the interloper. And if the society IS ready for it, somebody is probably working on it already. The upshot is, the written word becomes less sacred when it isn't so scarce. ....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: 5 Nov 86 12:57:09 GMT From: ethz!wyle@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mitchell Wyle) Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query Didn't Jerry Pournelle write and collaborate on a series of books along these lines? The Janisaries (sp) series has marvelous speculations about "normal" mercenaries in a prmitive time, re-building technology steadily. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 22:43:22 est From: jbvb@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (James B. VanBokkelen) Subject: Time-travel & technology Arriving between the beginning of the Bronze age and 1600??, the easiest thing to invent is the still. Not necessarily the *best* thing to invent, but easy, and lucrative. Arriving after 1600, nitroglycerin is relatively simple (provided you do your experiments at a considerable distance, and take every advantage that cold weather can give you over impure Nitric & Sulfuric acids), and once achieved, remember how Nobel came to fund the prize? By 1870, or whenever he invented dynamite, the fundamental technologies existed so that most of us could get the jump on either Edison or Curie, or maybe even Marconi. After 1910, penicillin. The diode (vacuum tube kind) would be lucrative too. I also know the principle behind vulcanization (sulfur and heat), which would have been worth a lot between 1750 and whenever Goodyear did his thing. As to how to survive for the first few months, act the simpleton, and beg or labor to keep your stomach filled while you learn the language. Then, play the bedraggled (but noble by birth) foreigner, and parlay fantastic (but not heretical) stories into an entree to the homes of the rich, and then launch your ideas. However, if you don't understand *any* of the technology underlying the things we use today, you lose, and spend your life as a day laborer. Dull, and dull reading about. I have somewhat more background in technology than many, but everything I've cited above (except perhaps the details of nitroglycerin) is taught in Jr. High science and history classes (I can remeber the line drawings of an amazed Goodyear, after treating rubber with sullfur and heating it...) jbvb@ai.ai.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu 6 Nov 86 22:59:44-EST From: Ben Bishop <T.SAILOR%DEEP-THOUGHT@EDDIE.MIT.EDU> Subject: making it rich 'back in time' One extremely simple way to get rich in the recent (more than 1 or 2 hundred years ago, less than thousand) past is aluminum. Hide yourself somewhere, build a generator, find bauxite (they knew what it was) and PRESTO more aluminum than an entire country. Aluminum was more expensive than gold/platinum back then mainly because it was so hard to refine. Getting to the point of having that generator might be tough, but the knowledge itself could get you there (pssssst: how'd you like to make alluminum by the ton? 50-50!). In that time frame there are too many things WE take for granted which we could remember or re-invent as we need them. The BEST story I have *ever* read on this topic is The Cross Time Engineer by Leo Frankowski. I am not-so-patiently waiting for the next in the series, but it takes a polish engineer back to 14th century poland (10 years before the mongols come and make kilbasa out of the peasantry). One of the livelier things he invents is a Bunny Club. (I will admit that the characters knowledge of fencing as well as his incredible mind/memory for facts stretches the belief of the reader a bit) Some of the things he invented: shuttle-looms, spinning wheels, double-entry bookkeeping, BASE-12 arithmetic(!), and other bits of knowledge which quasi-jealous nations and neo-capitalists were holding on to elsewhere. Whatever. It is a great book and I recommend it to anyone who likes intelligent people trying to survive in primative society. Ben Bishop bishop@athena.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 23:16 EST From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: Re: Gutenburg Cc: silber@P.CS.UIUC.EDU >c) It is practically guranteed to make money, at least Europe. > Look what happened to Gutenberg. Actually, didn't Gutenburg get squeezed out of his own business? Also, do you really know all the details of eg paper-making, the right formula for ink, etc? See de Camp's Lest Darkness Fall for some of the problems one can get into. Mark Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA 2-229 MIT Cambrige MA 02139 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 11:27:39 est From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: Stranded in time >In response to the "What would you do if you woke up 2000-3000 >years in the past?" question... Next is the lightbulb. A simple >arc will suffice...decent gears and motion controls were not >invented until the 1800s...Hang gliders...Bicycles. > >The internal combustion engine... You may be in for a shock. Many of these notions were around for a long time before they became practical. They became practical when the materials became available--especially high-quality steel and correspondingly accurate machine tools. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Nov 86 2110-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #376 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 8 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 376 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Asimov & Brin & Donaldson & Eddings & Hubbard (2 msgs) & Palmer & Steakley & Wolfe (2 msgs) & Dangermouse ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Nov 86 14:02:32 GMT From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin) Subject: Re: Piers Anthony 6080626@PUCC.BITNET writes: >Let's face it folks, Piers Anthony is a lousy writer. The man just >cannot write. His descriptions, his dialogue, his narrative flow >(I'm not a literary critic, SORRY), his etc., all sound like they >were written by high school students (or maybe by a computer, which >could explain his prodigious output). [...] >To recap: Piers Anthony is a bad writer. Piers Anthony is to >science-fiction/fantasy writing as Kate Bush is to pop music. Thank >you. He may be a bad writer, but obvously writes stuff which is enjoyable enough to sell reasonably well. (It may be that he writes so much because his books don't sell as much as he'd like, so he writes more to make up the rest!:-) I don't think that you should dismiss someone as a bad writer just because *you* don't like his stuff, though. I enjoy his books (the first two or so of a series anyway) and most of the people I've discussed them with seem to have enjoyed them as well. Just one other thing; how can you say he's a bad writer and then give him such a compliment as "he is to SF what Kate Bush is to pop music"? :-) Yes, I confess! I'm a Kate Bush fan too!! ------------------------------ Date: 7 Nov 86 01:45:11 GMT From: may@husc4.harvard.edu (jason may) Subject: Asimov I have read that Asimov has come out with the latest Foundation book, 'Foundation and Earth'. Has anyone read this, or know about it? I'd like to know what others' opinions are of some of Asimov's more recent stuff. To be frank, I didn't like 'Foundation's Edge'. I got the impression that the author changed his mind halfway through the book, suddenly bringing in this Gaia thing. Then at the end of the book, the conversation turns to something like: "Hey, back on about page 200 or so, I had just found out that all the references to Earth in the libraries had been erased. Didn't you have anything to do with that?" "No, none of us have any idea what you're talking about. What's Earth?". That, it seemed to me, was an absolutely obvious way of Asimov saying 'I'm going to write another sequel!!!'. I have also been unimpressed with the way the Lije Baley series went. I haven't read 'Robots and Empire', but by the third book, can't remember the title right now, I thought Asimov was groping for straws. I'll try and get hold of 'Robots and Empire' and see how it went. Don't get me wrong, I like most of Asimov's writing. I thought the original Foundation books were terrific, and I really liked 'The Caves of Steel' and 'The Naked Sun'. But it seems to me that Asimov is running out of steam.What do the rest of you think? Please keep the flames low, I'm not trying to insult anyone. I'd really like to know how the latest book turned out, though. Thanks, Jason (may@jusc4.harvard.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 12:25:33 PST From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) To: ihnp4!ihuxz!rls@Sun.COM Subject: Re: Is Brin running out of ideas? > First let me say that I just finished reading "The Postman" and > enjoyed it just as much as the other works by David Brin. Actually, I enjoyed it a lot more than other Brin works.... > Considering the wide imaginative range that Brin's previous books > covered, is he running out of ideas to the point of following > another authors ideas or did Ing writings give Brin an urge to > write a post holocaust book? Anyone know any details of why Brin > acknowledged Ing? I doubt that Brin is running out of ideas. He may well have been inspired to some degree by Ing, but post-holocausts are nothing new. Look at "The Peace War" and Kim Stanley Robinson's book for two other recent examples. There are a lot of reasons why Ing might have been acknowledged. Most likely is that Ing lives in Southern Oregon and was probably a stopping point and major resource while Brin was researching the area for the book. He is also a conservative "practical survivalist" (as opposed to the radical survivalists depicted in the book) and was probably a lot of help in putting together how to keep societies alive after the bomb and how survivalist cultures would tend to be structured. Perhaps all he did was proofread the manuscript -- this is all speculation, of course. The people who are part of SFWA tend to be, for the most part, pretty helpful with each other, whether or not it makes the acknolwedgements of the book. chuq ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 12:42:05 est From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (laurence) Subject: donaldson I've just read the new Donaldson novel. I got it kind of to give him a last chance after the abysmal second Covenant trilogy. Reports: - side: As usual the protagonist is an incompetent dweeb transported from Earth to another world she doesn't understand or care about. Furthermore, the protagonist is such a wimp that she is more or less uninteresting throughout most of the novel. The magic in this world is totally illogical, not just antiscientific -- magic is of course that. But this stuff is just unreasonable. It's interesting, though, if you ignore some of the weirdness and inconsistencies that are implied. Another minus -- as usual the only normal and sympathetic characters around are pretty much set up to get killed or have bad things happen to them -- it's kind of obvious in Donaldson's work that as soon as you read about someone you like, they will get killed, possessed, roasted, assassinated, you name it... + side: The protagonist may be a wimp, but she at least shows some signs of escaping her wimpitude eventually, as the novel progresses, unlike Covenant, who should have been killed immediately after the rape in the first book.... Also, she isn't a leper. Big plus, that. No more stupid mangling of English. There is a big difference between, say, Gene Wolfe's kind of word play and the annoying misuse of words that Donaldson was prone to in his previous two trilogies. The characters are in general more fun and interesting, since these book(s) seem to be much lighter and more comedic than the last ones. One really funny prolonged joke is how the heroine continues to avoid having sex with a villain -- kind of like Shakespeare.... Also, as I say, though the magical premise is bizarre, it is at least interesting. By the way, I believe it is more or less stated somewhere that this "series" will be two books (a bilogy?). Laurence R. Brothers brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 5 Nov 86 10:14:25 GMT From: jml@cs.strath.ac.uk (Joseph McLean) Subject: David Eddings In the British edition of the Belgariad (excellent by the way),there is an "about the author" which states that Eddings is currently working on a loose sequel to the Belgariad called "The Mallorean".Remember Mallorea is the great country to the north of the enclosed map. jml. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 12:28:00 PST From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) To: amdahl!kim@Sun.COM Subject: Re: l. ron hubbard > Does anyone know how many of the Mission Earth dekalogy Hubbard > wrote before his death? If you can believe Bridge, the publishers, all 10 volumes were written before the first was published (and Hubbard died), so there won't be any interruption in the publishing schedules. Some of us have other ideas, though.... chuq (not a ghost writer...) ------------------------------ Date: 5 Nov 86 15:33:47 GMT From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin) Subject: Re: l. ron hubbard From: S6VYJE%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU >I would appreciate seeing reviews of _Battlefield earth_ and the >five published books of the _mission earth_ dekalogy. if such have >already appeared on the net, could someone please mail directly to >me. are they worth reading? buying used? buying new? even, >buying hardcover? was anyone else insulted that the promoters of >_mission earth_ felt obliged to define 'dekalogy' to us? In answer to your last question first, yes! I think that publishers should trust that readers will look up a dictionary if there's a work they don't understand. I read the first volume of the _Mission Earth_ series a few months back and thoroughly enjoyed it. I've not (as yet) seen any of the rest, so can anybody out there say if they've been published in the UK as yet? ------------------------------ Date: 5 Nov 86 22:03:32 GMT From: desj@brahms (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Post-holocaust stories trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes: >I'm somewhat surprised that no one has mentioned "Emergence" by >David R. Palmer yet. It's got a dynamite (if perhaps a bit >unbelievable) protagonist, is quite well (over?) written and keeps >you on the edge of your nightstand until you finally have to put it >down beacuse it's over. (even then, the profound shock running up >and down your spine may paralyse you sufficiently that you can't >let it go...) >In case you didn't notice, I remotely enjoyed this book ;-) I liked the original short story (novella?) on which the novel is based quite a lot, and the second story was good enough to make me buy the book when I saw it. But the novel itself is *the* *worst* SF novel I have *ever* read (not a huge number, but certainly more than 1000). I'm afraid I can't convey the truly awful nature of this book with mere words -- I'm not that talented a writer -- but let me just say that the style is incredibly grating, the characters other than the protagonist are cardboard, the plot is absolutely ridiculous and throws in everything but the kitchen sink for no particular reason, and the general attitude the author expresses toward humanity is (to me) extremely offensive. In case you didn't notice, I remotely disliked this book ;-) David desJardins P.S. I would offer to give someone my copy of this book so he could see for himself without throwing away his $$, but Moe's used bookstore was stupid enough to buy it. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Nov 86 09:04:26 GMT From: ucdavis!ccdbryan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bryan McDonald) Subject: Re: Anyone read John Steakley? rls@ihuxz.UUCP (r.l. schieve) writes: >I have recently read and enjoyed "Armor" by John Steakley. > >In a nutshell: Humanity (sometime in the future) is at war with a >large insect-like race. The insects are huge, their...[ect] is >fantastic and attacks suicidally. Humanities best mode of fighting >is to teleport its warriors to the surface equipped with superhuman >"Armor". The ferocity and numbers of the "Bugs" makes it hell for >the humans. The story follows the life of one soldier who keeps >miraculously being the last or almost last survivor of raid after >raid. [ect] I haven't seen others, but if you have read Heinleins' _Starship Trooper_ you will notice that this book atempts to take the more simplistic views in ST and really examine the psycological ramifications. I thought it was a good book and recommend it. Bryan McDonald Univ. of California @ Davis ------------------------------ Date: 6 Nov 86 16:34:16 GMT From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: _Free Live Free_ free recommend rtm@cbosgd.ATT.COM (Randy Murray) writes: >If you want to give Wolfe a short term and interesting trial read >_The Island of Dr. Death and Other Stories and Other Stories_. Or try "The Fourth Head of Cerberus". ....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 23:13:03 MST From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley) Subject: SOLDIER OF THE MIST by Gene Wolfe In Patti Perret's THE FACES OF SCIENCE FICTION, Gene Wolfe's portrait shows a long row of books in the foreground with names like GREEK DIVINATION and THE GREEKS AND THE PERSIANS, including a prominent 4-volume edition of Herodotos. SOLDIER OF THE MIST (Tor 1986) is a fantasy which builds on all this raw material, taking place in 479 BC in Greece and Asia Minor. The story is interesting and exciting and the setting is packed with beautiful details and the plot is deeply entangled in delicate puzzles, but it's only the first book in a series and as such leaves you in quite a bit of suspense at the end. The characters of MIST participate in the events surrounding the disastrous invasion of Greece by the empire of the Persian king Xerxes. The text of the novel is purportedly the record of a soldier of the Persian army who was gravely wounded in a great battle: a projectile of some sort penetrated his skull and injured his brain, leaving him with a form of anterograde amnesia (and more than a little retrograde amnesia as well). By evening his memories of morning are already fading, disappearing into the 'mist' which has swallowed his life. In order to survive, he has taken to writing a diary on a scroll whose title is READ THIS EACH DAY. With his past in tatters, the soldier has lost his ability to distinguish the mundane from the supernatural, and he records the activities of the gods about him just as matter-of-factly as he describes his lunch. The gods, it seems, are once again scheming against each other and the soldier is a pawn in their games. The soldier walks through the lives of the mortals he meets leaving behind consternation and wonder, and by the end of this first book we know that the soldier is being prepared for a crucial role in both planes. As usual, Wolfe's prose is a joy to read and his characters are fascinating. I don't think this is as major a book as his SHADOW OF THE TORTURER, however. SHADOW was much more self-contained, using a plot which reached a distinct climax before the end of the volume. MIST is by its very nature a fragmented story, and it's hard to see more than the building blocks for a plot in it. Wolfe has assumed a very difficult task in presenting a protagonist who is incapable of any action which requires long-range planning... A minor problem is that I've forgotten much of my Greek mythology -- I found it difficult to keep track of the many gods who appear on the scene, sometimes employing different guises and different names (many of which are 'translated' into English forms which for me bear no hint of the original). The history gave me some trouble too; before the second volume comes out I'll have to dust off my old copy of Herodotos and try to get the historical setting straight. I won't mind the work, though: it's always been a rewarding labor to dig deep into Wolfe's stories. Dig we must, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 15:15:36 est From: jba@mitre-bedford.ARPA (Aibel) Not only does Dangermouse appear on TV but on November 11, he'll be appearing in Boston, at the B.U. Bookstore. I just got this notice that reads (in part): >Meet DANGER MOUSE, that brave, smart crimefighter, star of his own >TV show, "Danger Mouse," seen on Nickelodeon Cable. Have your >Danger Mouse books personally signed by danger Mouse, receive a >FREE Danger Mouse balloon and sticker....2PM, 2nd level, Children's >Department Jonathan Aibel jba at mitre-bedford ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Nov 86 0807-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #377 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 10 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 377 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Auel & Card (4 msgs) & Eddings (3 msgs) & Hubbard & Steakley (2 msgs) & Wolfe & Sentient Computers (2 msgs) & The Children's Library ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Nov 86 21:29:12 GMT From: ihlpa!rjp1@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Pietkivitch) Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy > How popular is Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? > What does everyone who knows about it, think about it? Well, in a word, Great! Actually, the TV series (HHGttG) does not exactly follow the books (HHGttU), but they contain much of the same element. I do like the books much better. Not only does one learn much about inexplicable and and albeit, improbable facts about the universe, one also gains a sense as to where his or her towel is. "Highly recommended for those seeking life, a sense of adventure, and really wild things..." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Nov 86 19:02:49 PST From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: THE MAMMOTH HUNTERS in paperback 11/12 Bantam will be releasing Jean Auel's third book, THE MAMMOTH HUNTERS, as a December paperback on November 12. It will be 723 pages, and there will be a 2,000,000 copy first printing. TMH has about 1.5 million copies in the Crown hardback as well. Cover is by Hiroko, same as on the hardback. (For those that think it can't be done, CLAN OF THE CAVE BEAR has sold 4,598,000 paperback and 205,000 hardback. It was also a first novel, a fact many people seem to forget. New authors CAN do it if they have good product) chuq ------------------------------ Date: 7 Nov 86 16:22:12 GMT From: ihlpa!smann@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mann) Subject: Re: Any other books by Card? Thanks to the discussion and recommendations from this newsgroup, I read and enjoyed Ender's Game by Somebody Card. After finishing it I realized that the author had also written another book I enjoyed very much, The Worthing Chronicles. Having read Science Fiction for over thirty years, it is getting harder and harder for me to find REALLY good books. The Worthing Chronicles and to a lesser extent, Ender's Game qualified. I have been unable to find any other books by this author. Does anyone know if there are any? Sherry Mann ihnp4!ihlpa!smann PS - The qualifier to Ender's Game is so slight it could have been left off. And probably should have been. I thought both books were very good. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Nov 86 07:59:49 GMT From: mlandau@Diamond.BBN.COM (Matt Landau) Subject: Re: Any other books by Card? smann@ihlpa.UUCP (Mann) writes: >Thanks to the discussion and recommendations from this newsgroup, I >read and enjoyed Ender's Game by Somebody Card... I have been >unable to find any other books by this author. Does anyone know if >there are any? Yes, somebody knows if there are any. No, really... In addition to Ender's Game and its sequel, Speaker for the Dead, Orson Scott Card has written a book called Capital that is now, alas, out of print. I think there was also one or more sequels or follow-on's to Capital, also probably out of print. Easier to find is a collection of short stories called Unaccompanied Sonata, which gets my highest recommendation. The stories are unusual and moving, every bit as good as The Island Of Dr. Death and Other Stories and Other Stories. (High praise indeed, if you're as big a Gene Wolfe fan as I am!) Matt Landau BBN Laboratories, Inc. 10 Moulton Street, Cambridge MA 02238 (617) 497-2429 mlandau@diamond.bbn.com ...seismo!diamond.bbn.com!mlandau ------------------------------ Date: 9 Nov 86 03:29:38 GMT From: mende@caip.RUTGERS.EDU (Bob Mende) Subject: Re: Any other books by Card? These are the books I have read by O.S.Card: Unaccompanied Sonata (short stories) A Planet Called Treason Songmaster Worthing cronicles Harts Hope Enders Game Speaker for the dead Bob Mende ARPA: mende@caip.rutgers.edu UUCP: {anywhere}!caip!mende ------------------------------ Date: 9 Nov 86 03:27:35 GMT From: 6105530@PUCC.BITNET (Daniel Kimberg) Subject: Re: Any other books by Card? I didn't enjoy Ender's Game particularly, but Card's stories used to appear regularly in Omni, and are collected in some of Omni's fiction collections. I have also seen a reference somewhere to a collection entitled "Unaccompanied Sonata" also the title of a story. No idea if it's available in the US. Dan ------------------------------ Date: 6 Nov 86 11:13:05 GMT From: gareth@comp.lancs.ac.uk (Gareth Husk) Subject: Re: David Eddings jml@cs.strath.ac.uk (Joseph McLean) writes: >In the British edition of the Belgariad (excellent by the >way),there is an "about the author" which states that Eddings is >currently working on a loose sequel to the Belgariad called "The >Mallorean".Remember Mallorea is the great country to the north of >the enclosed map. According to the publisher's bump on the wall in the local SF&F shop Eddings has a massive set of sequels planned ( as could be deduced from the last page of book five ) and I for one am not going to read them. After stating in the pre-amble that Eddings was using the series to devolop ideas in philosophy it quickly became a very standard plot where one race is regarded as inherently evil, to be killed with no thought at all. I think Eddings should dump the idea pretty damn quick and write something else, of course his publishers just love the idea of us all going out to buy the next five books in the series ( where do I remember that happening before, was it Dune, or Thomas Covanent ... ). Gareth Husk UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!gareth DARPA: gareth%lancs.comp@ucl-cs JANET: gareth@uk.ac.lancs.comp Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4586 Post: University of Lancaster Department of Computing, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Nov 86 04:27:36 GMT From: umcp-cs!mangoe@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: David Eddings Gareth Husk writes: >After stating in the pre-amble that Eddings was using the series to >devolop ideas in philosophy it quickly became a very standard plot >where one race is regarded as inherently evil, to be killed with no >thought at all. THe American edition has no such preamble (I for one am glad of it). And I think that the "standard plot device" is what you THINK is happening, but it gets changed up in the last two books into something more complicated. Personally, I like everything up to the Climactic Battle Scene, at which point Plot Expediency seizes the reins and everything goes to hell in a handbasket-- except for the constant trail of teasers for The Sequel. I especially like the prologue to _Magician's Gambit_, which is almost enough to stand on its own merits as an independent story. My problem with the series is that after four and a half books of not explaining, the story simply disintegrates into a swamp of plot devices and bad theology. THe plot of _End Game_ is a hairy monster as it is, and then we have this terribly unsatifying ending. Also, I can't see how there could be a sequel of much interest-- it's like trying to continue past _The Return of the King_. So I'm hoping this Big Sequel will not pan out. C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: 9 Nov 86 07:56:08 GMT From: gt-stratus!chen@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ray Chen) Subject: Re: David Eddings David Eddings pulled off quite a feat. He starts out with an epic storyline and stereotyped characters. The storyline involves the return of a King, salvation of the Universe, and the death of a God. The major characters are indeed incredibly stereotyped. He then makes you forget about the epic story, and concentrate instead instead on the day-to-day details. He takes stereotyped characters and makes them almost believable while still keeping them stereotyped. Character interaction ends up seeming as (or more) important than the big events. At the end of the story, he has the reader (and the main character) worrying about his upcoming marriage and the fact that he may become a *very* hen-pecked husband. He does this so well that I found myself not only sympathizing with the main character but also totally forgetting that this guy was now a King, Overlord of the West, one of the most powerful sorcerors in the world, and quite possibly immortal. On top of all this of course, he is (and will be for a number of years) the Guardian of the most powerful artifiact in the world -- an artifact that can amplify his sorcerous powers and is usable only by him and his direct descendants. And he had me feeling *sorry* for this guy because he was about to get married. You'd never see anything like this in a Tolkein-style epic. Eddings really illustrates the point that no matter how epic the adventure, you have to live it on a day-to-day basis. I find it difficult to pin a short description on the Belgeriad, but if I had to, I'd call it "an epic told in a humorous, non-epic way". The author's notes state that Eddings was trying to develop certain philisophical and technical ideas about the genre. Well, that's what I think he was after. Ray Chen chen@gatech.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 6 Nov 86 08:49:04 GMT From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin) Subject: Re: L. Ron Hubbard I'm posting this article for someone who can't reach the whole net. Any replies for this can be sent to me and I'll pass it on! From: Douglas Reid <douglasr> I have read _Battlefield Earth_, it is published in the UK and it is excellent. It is Hubbard's first attempt at 'pure' science fiction and makes an excellent read. ------------------------------ Date: Sat 8 Nov 86 14:21:03-EST From: Rob Freundlich Subject: re:"Armor" by John Steakley This sounds an awful lot like _Starship Troopers_, by (I think) Heinlein. Anyone who's read it have any comment? Rob Freundlich Wesleyan University s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 8 Nov 86 20:32:40 GMT From: mende@caip.RUTGERS.EDU (Bob Mende) Subject: re:"Armor" by John Steakley Yes... Armor by John Steakley is like Starship troopers but with real three dimensional characters. Armor is broken into two main halves. The first half is very similar to starship troopers, but the second half is *totally* different. When I first read it I thought I was seeing the biggest editors goof-up in history, I thought that they had put a totally different book in the second half. At the end of the second half, all of my questions had been answered. All in all I thought that the book was excellent and deserves four and a half stars. A well written and thought out book, with real characters and good writing. Bob Mende ARPA: mende@caip.rutgers.edu UUCP: {anywhere}!caip!mende ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Nov 86 12:22:46 est From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (laurence) Subject: Wolfe Personally, I think Wolfe is rather a better writer than Hofstadter, so I wouldn't make GEB a test for Wolfe. Actually, GEB, though a wonderful book, was nevertheless a popularization, and so suffers from all the defects that such books must -- like the reader is subtly patronized (there's really no way to avoid it), and is left with the feeling that there is much he isn't being told. Actually, I am a reader of the "Wolf(e?) it down" variety, but I get the same effect as a long, slow, careful reading by rereading a lot. I lose all contact with the story, all identification with the character, all suspension of disbelief, if I force myself to consider the actual words, or even sentences on the page. I thing Soldier in the Mists is a lot better than Free Live Free, mainly because of FLF's abrupt, offputting ending (offputting,the favorite word of my fiction workshop instructor, sounds like he's shooting for a long birdie....) -- inasmuch as I have heard that Wolfe is having problems with the publisher of SitM, you might as well read it now -- other books in the series may be a long time coming.... A tribute to Wolfe: his writing can actually make me feel like adopting the author's interests. As anyone can tell who has read any amount of Wolfe's work, he is a Naval History buff -- after one of his stories I have the strangest urge to go get a Hornblower book.... Laurence R. Brothers brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 7 Nov 86 20:57:17 GMT From: ut-ngp!gknight@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Gary Knight) Subject: Canonical list of sentient computer novels Clarification of earlier posting 1) No robot novels, please; just non-ambulatory computers; and 2) No short works, just novels. Gary Knight 3604 Pinnacle Road Austin, TX 78746 (512/328-2480). ------------------------------ Date: 7 Nov 86 23:06:28 GMT From: lewey!evp@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ed Post) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels > I am trying to compile a canonical list of SF *novels* dealing > with (1) sentient computers, and (2) human mental access to > computers or computer networks..... Some of the classics: RUR (Rossum's Universal Robots), Carel Capek(?) Asimov's entire robot series When Harlie was One, David Gerrold The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Robert Heinlein Colossus (sp?), The Forbin Project Ed Post {hplabs,voder,pyramid}!lewey!evp American Information Technology 10201 Torre Ave. Cupertino CA 95014 (408)252-8713 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 11:07:33 est From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: The Children's Library When I have to have a good book, and there's nothing appealing on my usual shelves, I sometimes pay a visit to the children's library. The best SF/F books written for children are almost as good as the best written for adults. Not quite: originality is considered less of a virtue in children's books, and you're more likely to come away with an enjoyable light read than with a thought-provoking one. Still, the best are very good indeed. "So You Want to Be a Wizard"--Diane Duane This is recognizably a book by the author of "The Door into Fire". The problem here, too: making the best of a world into whose making death and entropy have somehow crept. Here on earth, much of that responsibility falls upon wizards, including two youngsters who have been selected (by their wizard's manuals) as candidate wizards. They must travel into an alternate-world Manhattan--a dark and dangerous city whose streets are patrolled by predatory taxis (alternate?) and confront the Enemy (closely modelled upon Lucifer) to prevent a major mischief. The book is written with delightful humor. The sequel, "Deep Wizardry", is even better. "Alanna: The First Adventure"--Tamora Pierce The story takes place in a fantasy world (magic work, the gods meddle) which is a bit too medieval to be a 'generic fantasy' setting. The plot elements are quite generic: Ten-year-old Alanna, being sent for sorcerous training, would rather be a knight; her twin brother, being sent to court to be a page and later a squire, wants to be a sorceror. They switch. With so standard a start, the only thing that could rescue the book is superb writing. It is rescued. A problem with children's books is that they are less likely than their adult counterparts to make the transition to paperback. They can, however, be found in the library. I'm not suggesting that these are good books for some children you may want to interest in the genre. I'm suggesting that the next time you're in need of a good light read, *you* head to the children's library and check these out. If you enjoy these, two still very enjoyable books written for yet younger audiences (and hence even more light-weight) are: The Rebel Witch--Jack Lovejoy The Dancing Meteor--Anne Mason ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Nov 86 0823-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #378 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 10 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 378 Today's Topics: Films - Star Wars (3 msgs) & Counter Earth & Buckaroo Banzai & Star Trek (2 msgs), Television - Star Blazers (2 msgs) & New Show & ALF & Star Trek ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Oct 86 14:30:02 PDT From: raoul@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA Subject: Star Wars continues c8-2cc@seymour.Berkeley.EDU (Cindy W. Yan) writes: >... the first trilogy is supposed to be a recounting of what >happened between Obi Wan Kenobi and Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker. >That's about all I know. It's supposed to tell, in greater detail >than in "Jedi", how Anakin came to be with the Dark Side. BTW, the >last trilogy, beginning with Star Wars VI, is supposed to continue >the adventures of Luke, Leia, and Han and the gang. It's supposed >to pick up after "Jedi", but I don't know if it will ever be made. >I hope that helps. I vaguely remember reading about this in "The L.A. Weekly" +5 years ago where George Lucas was spilling the plot of the Star Wars story. From my faded core memory.... Each trilogy happened many hundreds of years apart of each other. The first trilogy dealt with the rising of the First Empire and the organization of the Jedi Knights. The third trilogy dealt with the outcome (another galactic empire) of the second trilogy. ***** Mild Spoiler Follows ***** What really ties the trilogies together are the droids, C3PO and R2D2. We find in the last trilogy that they are telling the whole story. They are the only characters that have survived. Luke, Leia and the rest should only appear in the second trilogy. Of course this is Hollywood and your mileage may vary so the story may have been changed again. It will be interesting to see how 'primitive' technology will be in the first trilogy compared to the second trilogy. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Oct 86 09:29:36 PDT (Wednesday) Subject: Star Wars I From: Opstad.osbunorth@Xerox.COM c8-2cc@seymour.Berkeley.EDU (Cindy W. Yan) writes: >BTW, the last trilogy, beginning with Star Wars VI, is supposed to >continue the adventures of Luke, Leia, and Han and the gang... I wonder if the strange intended order of production (4,5,6,1,2,3,7,8,9) is to allow the actors who played in the first trilogy to age a bit, so that they will really appear older in the last trilogy? It would be nice to see the same faces (fur, carbonite...) that we've grown used to, rather than casting new actors and pretending to the audience that they're just older versions of the characters. Dave Opstad (Opstad.osbunorth@Xerox.COM) ------------------------------ Date: Mon 27 Oct 86 14:45:54-EST From: eric(wccs.e-simon%kla.weslyn@weslyan.bitnet) Subject: Star Wars Trilogies Hi all. This may be old news, but people have been asking about the Star Wars Trilogies. The way I understood it, the entire saga was comprised of three trilogies: The first is the Clone Wars trilogy which tells of the formation of the Jedi Knights and the training of Luke's father and Ben by Yoda, etc. The third movie in this set should presumably end with Leia, CP3O, etc. being chased (thus leading into `A New Hope'). I hear that the plots for this triology are currently in the works .... The second trilogy is the Star Wars trilogy, and we all know what that's about. :-) I have not heard much about the third trilogy, only that it is supposed to be made last and that it tells of the further adventures of Luke as teacher and Leia as pupil. (No Empire in this one). Well, that's what I hear (don't yell at me alot if I'm wrong :-) Eric J. Simon Wesleyan University wccs.e-simon%kla.weslyn%wesleyan.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa Box 1269 Wesleyan Station Middletown, CT 06457 (203)347-7325 ------------------------------ Date: 27 Oct 86 16:48:25 GMT From: bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray) Subject: Re: Counter-earth (was Re: Theme Story Request) laura@hoptoad.UUCP (Laura Creighton) writes: >daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes: >>In one movie, an astronaut heads in some funky orbit around the >>sun. He get's back too soon. We eventually realize that there is >>another planet on the far side of the sun that is exactly the same >>as ours, but flipped, right for left. .... > >I want the name of that movie!! Anybody remember? This sounds like the Gerry Anderson (Yes him again) film released here with the title "doppelganger" (sp?) Bob Gray. ------------------------------ Date: Thu 30 Oct 86 13:56:39-PST From: Judy Anderson <yduJ@SRI-KL.ARPA> Subject: Buckaroo Banzai Fan Club query I work for Schlumberger Palo Alto Research, and as a random hack we have made t-shirts and cups with our logo, but the word "Schlumberger" replaced by "Yoyodyne". Anyway, the tshirt enterprise is now in danger of showing a profit (I don't run the cup enterprise so I don't know its financial state), and it seems to me that I should do something appropriately silly with the money. So I got the idea that maybe I could have the lab join the Buckaroo Banzai Fan Club which I seem to recall actually exists. Anyone know the address and how much various options cost? Judy. ------------------------------ Date: Sun 2 Nov 86 16:34:25-CST From: LI.BOHRER@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: re: The Sad State of Proofreading (or: kill the continuity Subject: person) This would be the equivalent of a proofreading error in film: Did anybody catch the nice, fullscreen profile of Dame Judith Anderson, SANS POINTS, near the end of STIV??? I thought I was high, but on subsequent viewings, no, they really aren't there. This was much more apparent than the little glitch near the end of ST-TMP where we notice that Spock and McCoy have switched their Davy Crockett jackets because the color on the little insignia(e?) miracululously switch places. Plenty of people have remarked about this. Regards, Bill ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 86 22:55:50 GMT From: reed!tim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Tim Flanagan) Subject: Re: Trailer for Star Trek IV spock@hope.UUCP (Chris Ambler) writes: >> jason@hpcnoe.UUCP (Jason Zions) writes: >>>2) I just saw a trailer last night; the damn thing is just one >>>spoiler after another. I mean, shoot, they told the whole story >>>in 1 or two minutes of film! I was more than a little angry. >> YES YES YES! I saw this trailer recently and it does indeed give >> away the whole movie!!! I have been warning off people I know >> ever since. >Well, I saw it last week too, and, be reasonable, I wouldn't have >missed it for the world. To be perfectly honest, if I had the >opportunity to see it and missed it, I'd die of curiosity. It >didn't reveal THAT much, and we all know (knew) what it revealed as >rumours, anyway. I agree with Chris (Spock?[who is this guy?]). I thought the preview was about average as far as spoiler-value goes. It merely confirmed various rumors which practically everybody was aware of, and anybody who wasn't aware of them probably doesn't much care. I noticed that, at least in the trailer I saw, that McCoy had no "lines", and was shown only in the background, or in infinitesimally short flashes. Does anybody have any idea why that is? I assume that the preview featured Kirk and Spock to such a great extent because the average mundane would recognize them before anyone else. MILD SPOILER Also, there was an extremely short clip which showed some piece of (I think) fabric dropping onto a lawn or field, and the ground subsequently cracking as if an irregularly shaped elevator were "going down". Now, I am familiar with almost the entire plot, but cannot figure out where this fits in. I seem to have gotten the impression that this occured "here" in the 1980s, but it doesn't really fit in with anything I am aware of. Any ideas? Timothy R. Flanagan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 12:55 EDT From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire Subject: Star Blazers Star Blazers is an American version of the classic Japanese Animation series Space Cruiser Yamato. The two TV series that are commonly seen in this country are just a small chunk of everything that exists for this remarkable series. The series began in 1974 and was fairly popular, but after the rekindled interest in Space Opera caused by Star Wars, the first series was re-edited into a feature film and its success was overwhelming. It was so popular that a second feature film, "Farewell Space Cruiser Yamato"(aka "Arrivederci Yamato") was made. In this, the bulk of the cast, including the hero and one of the villains give their lives and the Yamato to save the earth. This was met with an incredibly emotional response on the part of Japanese fans,, and to continue milking Yamato for all it was worth, the producers made the second series of episodes that roughly followed the second movie yet allowed the characters to survive. After that, came a TV movie called "Yamato: The New Journey" and ANOTHER theatrical film. (An odd aside: that feature, "Be Forever Yamato" started off in a normal aspect ratio, but half way through the film, it expanded to full cinemascope!) After that, came the Third TV series which was largely disappointing owing to the fact that it was designed for 52 episodes but only 25 were made. Finally, 1983 saw the release of "Final Yamato, the Concluding Chapter" which once again saw the Yamato destroyed. The latest 'talk' is that a NEW film, "Desslock's War" will be released real soon now that covers the adventures of the Yamato's most popular villain-turned-hero. The series is remarkable. It has been pointed out that there is more genuine humanity and drama in the 95 minute "Yamato the New Journey: " than in the entirety of the Star Wars trilogy. Finally, the Third Series HAS been translated and WILL be available in various cities throughout the country. I have seen 2 episodes and be warned: The voices are all different than the original American Cast. Sayonarra, Dan P. Hampshire College ------------------------------ Date: 7 Nov 86 15:59:37 GMT From: nike!kaufman@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Espion--Guy Espion) Subject: Re: Star Blazers DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes: > Finally, the Third Series HAS been translated and WILL be >available in various cities throughout the country. I have seen 2 >episodes and be warned: The voices are all different than the >original American Cast. Who's doing the translation? Do you know? It could make ALL the difference. I saw a translation of Captain Harlock by Ziv, Internat'l where Harlock was played by John Wayne (or some sound-alike), the kid was a brat, and the human female was a priss. (Sorry I can't remember their names, it's been a few years.) The same applies to any other Japanimation shows. Anybody know? (Also, anyone know when any are shown in the Bay Area or NYC?) TIA. seismo!nike!orion!kaufman ------------------------------ Date: 5 Nov 86 14:47:19 GMT From: jaffe@elbereth.RUTGERS.EDU (Saul) Subject: The Return of..... Has anyone else out there noticed how bad people who write television shows are hurting for new ideas? I mean let's face it, some of the shows lately are just plain terrible. I got sick to my stomach watching ALF which seemed to be nothing more than a re-hashing of Mork but with a puppet instead of a clever comedian. Then there are the various attempts to revive old shows that were hits back in the '50s and '60s. Remember the failed revival of I Dream of Jeannie with a black male as the genie?? (I can't remember the name of the show). Well now they have a new one. One of the networks (I believe CBS because they had the rights to the original) has announced that one of their January replacement shows will be starring Ray Walston and will be called.... "My Favorite Martians"!!!!! The show will be without Bill Bixby and will be about a group of martians who have come to earth for a visit with "Uncle" Martin who had decided to remain on earth. After all his attempts to get back home in the original, I think this is silly already and I haven't even seen the first episode!! Saul Jaffe Rutgers University ARPA: Jaffe@Red.rutgers.edu or Jaffe@elbereth.rutgers.edu UUCP: elbereth!jaffe ------------------------------ Date: 8 Nov 86 06:21:39 GMT From: uokmax!dewhitne@rutgers.rutgers.edu (David E. Whitney) Subject: Re: The Return of..... >...I got sick of watching ALF....rewritten Mork with puppet. Yes, I too must express disappointment over the lack of good writing for ALF. They should have allowed the writers who prepared the midsummer promotionals for the series hack at a few of the episodes as opposed to the ones they've aired. It's not that they've been that *bad*, necessarily, it just seems as though they could have been better. Certainly *funnier*. Almost seems as though NBC is going against the grain of its own philosophy with ALF -- taking a risk on an off-beat show, but its writers aren't attempting anything that hasn't been used before (in variations) on other shows. Seems like ALF is, right now, a case of missing potential--but I'll hold out hope. It's a good premise, and if we get rid of most of the banal family he's imprisoned with, it'd be a great start... David E. Whitney University of Oklahoma ------------------------------ Date: 25 Oct 86 12:58:09 GMT From: MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET Subject: Re: Taboos in Star Trek (was ST:The Next Gen.) demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) says: >> Waitaminute. I remember most of these, but when did they do >>anything about homosexuality or incest? The former was rumored by >>a small clique of fans (the ones who conjectured a love affair >>between Kirk and Spock), but it was never specifically addressed. > >In "Metamorphasis," the relationship between the cloud-creature and >Zephram was intended to be a parallel to a homosexual relationship, >and the confusion that sometimes results when a person realizes >he/she may experiencing feelings of love to a member of the same >sex. A general realization that "love is love, and gay is ok." Hmmm. If the "love is love" theme was intended, then they failed miserably at developing it. Near the end of the episode, Kirk makes a long-winded speech about how it's *impossible* for the creature to love Zefram, because they "can't join." The creature is forced to occupy Nancy's body to get Zefram to accept her. If a reference to homosexual relations was intended, then it was a statement *against* them, not saying that "gay is ok." >...both those pieces of information came from interviews between >the various authors of the episodes and a "trekkie fanzine." One of the fanzines that print the Kirk/Spock love stories, maybe? I'm not trying to flame-- if Star Trek writers had the courage to defend gay rights (even cryptically), my hat's off to them. I just think it's a case of reading more into the dialogue than is there. James D. Maloy The Pennsylvania State University Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL UUCP : {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Nov 86 0828-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #379 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 10 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 379 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Zelazny (9 msgs) & Sentient Computers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Nov 86 03:16:34 GMT From: edsel!dxa@rutgers.rutgers.edu (DR Anolick) Subject: Foundation and Earth I just finished reading Foundation and Earth, Asimov's latest addition to the Foundation Universe. I do not feel qualified to critique it, because my interest is such that I am too involved to find much wrong with any of the series. You see the original trilogy is what hooked me on SF, and I am therefore not impartial. I certainly saw flaws in Robots and Dawn, Robots and Empire, Foundation's Edge and Foundation and Earth. However, I enjoyed them all, and felt them up to the standards of the original trilogy and the original Lije Baley stories. I will say that if you feel as I do about the books mentioned above, that you will enjoy Foundation and Earth. Minor and major spoilers follow, if you care at all about spoilers, stop here. In particular the Major Spoiler discusses the ending of the book. ** START MINOR SPOILER ** If you have been aware that Asimov has been using his later works to tie together all the Lije Baley stories with the Foundation stories, than I can say that this story, Foundation and Earth, completes that task. I won't say how, although it should be easy to guess. The following major spoiler discusses the ending of the book, you have been warned twice! ** START MAJOR SPOILER ** Asimov did it to us again. He set up an obvious sequel. The annoying thing is that I was not sure that he had done so at first. And part of me is still not sure. I am curious if anyone else came to the same conclusion that I did. (Some may say it was obvious) The conclusion? That Fallom may be a representative of non-human invaders in the Milky Way. Since Daneel will merge with Fallom, and Galaxia is far from completed, humanity is now faced with exactly what Trevise surmised, destruction by being divided and conquered. There are some very obvious, and some subtle clues that lead to this conclusion. The thing that made it a shock to me, was that the realization of it came only from the last two paragraphs of the book. I was so sure that this time, the story was going to end, without an obvious continuation. Thats why I'm curious what other people felt about this ending. Do let me know. David Roy Anolick ..ihnp4!edsel!dxa ------------------------------ Date: Thu 30 Oct 1986 16:10 CDT From: Steve Besalke <CUSLB%IECMICC.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> Subject: "Steven R. Balzac" writes: > Remember what Oberon says in Courts of Caos: it is possible to >exert one's will on the timestream of a shadow making time flow >faster or slower as desired. This must not be common knowledge to descendants of Oberon. If it is, then why did Rinaldo want to go to a specific shadow where time flows "so much faster that I'll (Rinaldo speaking) be healed up in a day or so in terms of local time at the Keep." If he knew about influencing time flow, he could have went to any shadow--just as long as it was far enough from Amber to so influencing time would not be as difficult as it would be when closer to Amber. Steve Besalke <CUSLB%IECMICC.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> ------------------------------ Date: 31 Oct 86 14:51:26 PST (Friday) From: Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM Subject: AMBER - been around how long? My impression is Dworkin build Amber just a couple thousand years before the stories take place. Two of the first sons of Oberon tried to take over and died. Benedict studied war for one or two thousand years. There's no mention of millions and millions of years. Does this mean earth was created five or ten thousand years ago? Or just before Amber, our earth floated around and afterwards people started populating it? Another option is when Amber was first created time really ran wild in the various shadows, sometimes going a billion times faster than the time in Amber. This would allow our universe to be billions and billions of years old. Oberon tells Corwin it is possible to affect the rate of time in a shadow. Could taking the jewel through the pattern allow someone to affect time in many or all shadows? It would be tempting to find a fast shadow and speed it up. If Corwin spent several centuries on Earth, could he have children and not know about it? Oberon has at least one son that the rest of the world didn't know about. Many children may have even died for the healing factor may only come after walking the patten. All these questions. :-) Henry III cate3.pa@xerox.com ------------------------------ Date: 1 Nov 86 21:15:06 GMT From: lyles@tybalt.caltech.edu (Lyle N. Scheer) Subject: Re: AMBER - been around how long? Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM writes: > My impression is Dworkin build Amber just a couple thousand years >before the stories take place. Two of the first sons of Oberon >tried to take over and died. Benedict studied war for one or two >thousand years. There's no mention of millions and millions of >years. Sounds right to me. > Does this mean earth was created five or ten thousand years ago? No, it has nothing to do with it! There has been no mention made in the books that the nature of shadow has changed over time. Thus Dworkin could have gone anywhere he chose, just as Corwin can, though what wonderful powers Dworkin has as the creator of the universe that Corwin lacks we can only guess. Anyway, surely Dworkin could go to a Shadow that included 5 billion people who thought they had some long involved history. After all, can you prove to me that the universe wasn't created 15 minutes ago, with ready-made fossils and people with ready-made memories? That's what happened the first time anyone went to Earth, if you believe the Amberites-create- Shadow theory (and probably Corwin was the one, unless Dworkin did some marvelous traversal of all the infinite shadows in finite time, something Corwin did not do when he created his universe). Allen Knutson ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 86 00:57:01 GMT From: knight@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Kevin Knight) Subject: Amber In *Blood of Amber*, Fiona and Merlin argue over what is responsible for the scary events of late. Fiona thinks the power resident in Corwin's new Pattern is screwing things up, but Merlin suggests that the fallout from the war with Chaos hasn't settled down yet. There is another possibility. In *The Courts of Chaos*, Brand tells Corwin that a new pattern (created by Brand) could not be the same as the old Pattern, due to the stylistic and personality differences in the creators. Well, Dworkin created the original Pattern, but recall that much of it was destroyed (by Brand). But it was not Dworkin who REPAIRED the Pattern -- it was Oberon. Oberon's "patches" might have affected the consistency of the Pattern in some unfortunate way. Also, I agree with a previous post about the nature of Shadow. The distinction between creation and discovery is probably none at all. A Prince may walk to any world whose physical features he "envisions", but he can't envision every little detail: much is left up to Nature (or the Pattern, you might say). Included in what Nature comes up with are histories, people, and memories for those people. Of course, this raises the question of why Princes don't seek out (i.e. create) highly advanced civilizations. I do not think they are comfortable with them ... Merlin and Rinaldo are becoming more comfortable, but the older ones, no. Kevin Knight knight@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 86 12:48:23 est From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (laurence) Subject: zelazny The reason Merlin CAN'T walk to Proxima Centauri is that he has no idea what it is like there. Shadow travel is accomplished by the addition and subtraction of features, or by the use of Trump or Pattern to get to someplace already known or specifically identifiable. Thus each shadow may be completely different and unrelated. Lets say Merlin adds two suns to the sky; is he still in a place that is cognate to Earth in our shadow? It is a numinous question since the shadows don't have to correspond in such a simple way as to keep the basic topology of our universe. Why doesn't Merlin ever walk to a shadow where planck's constant is different and there can be no such thing as matter, say? Because he isn't that stupid. Presumably, since Amber and the Courts exist in such a way as to support "life as we know it" more or less, most shadows can do the same simply because no one would travel to a shadow that wouldn't, thus "creating" it, or at least making it more accessible. If you read Creatures of Light and Darkness and Roadmarks you will get more discussion of the finding vs. creating argument. One thing Merlin COULD do is walk to a shadow very close to ours where they have ftl..... Another thing is he could do is walk to a place where the Earth was 4 light years away, trying to keep everything else constant as much as possible between Earth and this new shadow, but he still couldn't be sure that the place he had walked to would be anything like the real vicinity of Proxima Centauri. It would be annoying to walk shadow in a spacesuit anyhow... Laurence R. Brothers brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 5 Nov 86 05:08:20 GMT From: looking!brad@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton) Subject: Don't be silly, Amberites can't walk to the stars brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu writes: >Another thing is he could do is walk to a place where the Earth was >4 light years away, trying to keep everything else constant as much >as possible between Earth and this new shadow, but he still >couldn't be sure that the place he had walked to would be anything >like the real vicinity of Proxima Centauri. It would be annoying to >walk shadow in a spacesuit anyhow... There's one big point everybody is missing. The Amber universe is Amber (Earth) centered. In Zelazny's books, Copernicus was wrong. Bruno was wrong. They were all wrong. Everything in that universe revolves around Amber and the pattern, the one fixed point. No comment about what Chaos is like, but it has little to do with our observed sky. In Amber, the stars are just lights in the sky, probably nothing more. Dworkin carved the pattern and one planet and all its shadows with it. In the real Amber, many technologies don't work. You would have to show evidence for the existence of such things as light years of space, other stars and planets. Brad Templeton Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 11:18:06 est From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Shadow-walking to ftl >One thing Merlin COULD do is walk to a shadow >very close to ours where they have ftl..... That's where the create-vs-find question comes in. If the shadow-walker creates the shadow he's looking for then who is the inventor of the ftl drive? ------------------------------ Date: 6 Nov 86 19:48:56 GMT From: ukecc!vnend@rutgers.rutgers.edu (D. W. James) Subject: Re: Don't be silly, Amberites can't walk to the stars brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes: >brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu writes: >>Another thing is he could do is walk to a place where the Earth >>was 4 light years away, trying to keep everything else constant as >>much as possible between Earth and this new shadow, but he still >>couldn't be sure that the place he had walked to would be anything >>like the real vicinity of Proxima Centauri. It would be annoying >>to walk shadow in a spacesuit anyhow... No need, just fly there. Random did it >There's one big point everybody is missing. The Amber universe is >Amber (Earth) centered. In Zelazney's books, Copernicus was wrong. >Bruno was wrong. They were all wrong. Everything in that universe >revolves around Amber and the pattern, the one fixed point. > >No comment about what Chaos is like, but it has little to do with >our observed sky. > >In Amber, the stars are just lights in the sky, probably nothing >more. Dworkin carved the pattern and one planet and all its >shadows with it. In the real Amber, many technolgies don't work. >You would have to show evidence for the existence of such things as >light years of space, other stars and planets. -- Brad Templeton, >Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 No, they arn't missing anything at all. It's just a matter of perception. Roger never implied that there was a PHYSICAL congruity, the relationship seems to be more magical than anything else. Amber is the Magical or even Philosophical center of the MULTIverse. It may very be the center of the universe that it is in, but not necessarily the center of any others. As for the stars in Prime Amber, you make a good point. Perhaps Random with the heightened perceptions that the Jewel provides could answer that one for us. Anybody know his USENET address? :-) One interesting detail is that no matter which direction you leave Amber travelling in, you will end up in Chaos if you travel long enough. "Courts of Chaos" definitely implied that there was a SHORTEST distance route, but either multiple-universal dimensional geometries are radically different than those we normally use (not at all unlikely), or this can be seen as further proof that the relationship is not simply physical. Has anyone else done any serious thinking about multiversal coordinate systems? I've been halfheartedly working on describing a friend's constructed multiverse in some coherent manner, and have had only marginal success. Any ideas? ------------------------------ Date: 7 Nov 86 06:29:12 GMT From: 6105530@PUCC.BITNET (Daniel Kimberg) Subject: Re: zelazny I would disagree with your assessment of Merlin's abilities. He is able to travel shadow, which is to subtly alter the physical characteristics of the world he is in, but he wouldn't be able to do anything as subtle as change Planck's constant. Remember, in traveling shadow they have to find things, not just figure they want their next steps to take them to "someplace that has gunpowder that works in Amber" or whatever. When Merlin extends his Logrus hand to find something, he has to search for it through many shadows - the more improbable or specific the object, the longer the search. Dan ------------------------------ Date: 10 Nov 86 04:16:42 GMT From: ulowell!rickheit@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Erich Rickheit) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels evp@lewey.UUCP (Ed Post) writes: > I am trying to compile a canonical list of SF *novels* dealing > with (1) sentient computers, and (2) human mental access to > computers or computer networks..... I'd like to insert a quick plug at this point-one excellent novel on this subject, especially for computer people-is Delany's _Valentina:_Soul_in_ _Sapphire_. This was an _excellent_ novel that was killed by a poor and misleading cover painting and blurb. If you can get your hands on it, I heartily recommend it! UUCP: ...!wanginst!ulowell!rickheit USnail: Erich Rickheit 85 Gershom Ave, #2 Lowell, MA 01854 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Nov 86 0756-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #380 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 11 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 380 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Dragons & Drinks (2 msgs) & Conventions (3 msgs) & Time Travel (5 msgs) & Weapons Policies (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1986 17:58 EDT From: AJB <RAAQC718%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> Subject: Information request: I am writing an article, part of which chronicles a history of dragons in literature. I would appreciate if people would write me about their favorite dragon-type e.g. Smaug from Tolkien, Dragonriders of Pern from Anne Macaffrey, etc. I may even come up with a top-ten of dragons. Thanx. Please send mail to BERKSON@QCVAXA or ALBQC@CUNYVM. Alan Berkson Queens College Academic Computer Center BERKSON@QCVAXA, ALBQC@CUNYVM ------------------------------ Date: 29 Oct 86 09:30:24 GMT From: hope!allanon@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Leung) Subject: Drinks mentioned in SF stories I am trying to collect names of drinks mentioned in SF stories and I named my place Draco's Tavern. Pan Galatic Gargle Blaster Douglas Adams /*Hitchhikers GUide */ Panther Sweat Harry Harrison /*stainless Steel Rat */ ron Harry Harrison Opal Fire Larry Niven /*More tales from Draco's */ /* Tavern */ Dragonfly Steve Barnes /* Street Lethal */ Rum antaries Joe Haldmen /* The forever War */ Anything else? ken ------------------------------ Date: 7 Nov 86 16:09:22 GMT From: ihlpa!smann@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mann) Subject: Re: Drinks mentioned in SF stories > I am trying to collect names of drinks mentioned in SF stories and > I named my place Draco's Tavern. Douglas Adams also mentions in Restaurant at the End of the Universe that all [planets civilizations galaxies] have a drink they call ginindonic (my spelling) or some version thereof. I know he's right because we have a drink called gin and tonic which qualifies. Sherry Mann ihnp4!ihlpa!smann ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 86 14:31:38 CST From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA> Subject: Cons from the other side Has anyone out there any access to hotel-industry trade publications, and have you ever seen any articles or discussions in them about Science-Fiction Conventions? I've only read about them from the fan/participant point of view, aside from the few "gee-whiz" newspaper articles on local cons, and I'd like to read/see how cons are viewed from the "opposite" side -- that of the hotel industry. (If there was nothing on SF cons in specific, how about articles on conventions in general? That might be more likely...) Regards, Will Martin wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA ...!seismo!wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 1 Nov 86 01:15:39 GMT From: jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare) Subject: Re: Cons from the other side wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA writes: >Has anyone out there any access to hotel-industry trade >publications, and have you ever seen any articles or discussions in >them about Science-Fiction Conventions? Second-hand information, but I gather that (at least until recently) the industry's "handbook" opinion of SF fans could be summarized as: They don't cause much damage, they don't spend much money, and they don't patronize the hotel hookers -- presumably we bring our own entertainment :-) Jordin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Nov 86 13:41:20 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: WFC The World Fantasy Convention was held down the hill from Brown this weekend. Unfortunately, I have no idea what was going on, who was there (besides King, Vardeman, Haldeman...)... Was anyone who's reading this there? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 86 10:55:44 EST From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) To: brad%looking.waterloo.edu@RELAY.CS.NET Subject: Re: time travel suggestions FREON?!? You've GOT to be kidding! As an ex-chemist I have some idea of the difficulty involved in producing it without major supply and preparation structures in place. Right on Otis----in \broad/ terms. Now do you remember how? Scurvy is caused by a dietary deficiency; it was recognized/cured in seamen substantially because sea power was vital to England. I would expect scurvy to be endemic in winter outside the upper classes, since relatively fresh produce is virtually the only source of vitamin C (a very delicate chemical---it's used in biochemical experiments as a short-term preservative because it reacts with potential interferents before they can mess up what you're interested in. You wouldn't find it in most preserved foods, even many pickles (since they're cooked---and in most cultures pickles are a luxury item).) In general, I get the impression that as a "businessman" you have little idea of how deep the technology is behind the things you consider trivial, and none at all of the resistance to disturbance of most cultures (which resistance may be a good thing; otherwise we might not be here. cf various stories about the destructive effect on contemporary society of minor devices (free shoelaces?!?) from advanced technologies). Finally, you speak of preparation. The original inquiry specifically stated removal with no warning, to a time not of the transportee's choice (although not actually chosen to be dreadful, as in the Anderson story in which a time agent catches up to a would-have-been world conqueror who survived being exiled to Poland in 1939 (the last line is "I left him in Damascus (? Baghdad?) the year before Tamerlane sacked it.")). Certainly preparation makes it easier---but planning for the high profile you suggest is more likely to cause you to wind up dead or in a lunatic asylum. Predicting a major event is a fine idea, but relying on present-day records for anything less mechanical than an eclipse is likely to lose (when did it happen vs when was it publicized? (consider the Declaration of Independence...) how do you get to someone to whom it matters?). ------------------------------ Date: 8 Nov 86 14:14:52 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query silber@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu writes: > of all, movable type. I just saw James Burke's "The Day the > Universe Changed" (part 3) which discussed the effects of printing > upon society. The advantages of inventing the printing press are > as follows: > a) It draws upon available technology. (Metal casting, presses, > ink, paper.) (In a pinch one could use vellum or parchment, > the limiting factor in earlier times was lack of scribes.) > (Sufficiently early and removed from Egypt one might have to > invent paper, but that is not all that hard to do.) Well, Burke's previous show ("Connections") pointed out that moveable type (note: *not* the printing press) caught on because there was suddenly a much larger supply of paper than before. And why? Because people had started wearing underwear, leading to a supply of linen rags which could profitably be turned into paper! Without a supply of paper, moveable type wouldn't be nearly as useful. The printing press mentioned above had been around for a while, but used a single block for each sheet. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Nov 86 15:20:46 pst From: ucdavis!clover!hildum@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Hildum) Subject: time travel Something that most people seem not to have considered in their "person dropped back in time" remarks. What about personal jewelry? While this probably wouldn't last long, it might be enough to get you meals for the first few days. Comments? Eric ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Nov 86 13:22:27 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Time-traveling musician If a musician with a good memory arrived at the right period in history, he or she could invent his instrument...in fact, maybe Stradivarius was a modern time traveller who had studied how to make his violins like Stradivarius did! Or, a clarinet player could perform Mozart's clarinet concerto for him, under the name of Anton Stadler.... ------------------------------ Date: 7 Nov 86 18:57:08 GMT From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query >I think the thing most people would miss most would be the lack of >modern medical and dental care. It would be a shame to die of >appendicitis or pneumonia (add penicillin to the invention list) or >other curable problems. Actually, disease is likely to be a MAJOR problem for such a traveller. Exactly what kind of problem is not entirely clear, however. It is clear that as generations pass, diseases tend to become less virulent. There are two obvious mechanisms for this: people evolve to become more resistant to the disease, and the disease evolves to become less harmful. (Being deadly is a distinct disadvantage for a disease -- better if it can live in its host without killing it.) It is not clear just what the balance is between these two mechanisms. If human evolution is the primary factor, our time traveller becomes a "Typhoid Mary"; all the organisms in his body which are harmless to him prove otherwise in the general populace, and the result is plague -- maybe three or four plagues at the same time. If evolution of the organisms is primary, the time traveller is exposed to a host of deadly diseases to which he has no resistance, and can be expected to sicken and die. In an intermediate case, which is likely, both of the above may happen. At minimum, one can expect the time traveller to come down with a bad and prolonged case of "Montezuma's revenge", and everyone else to get bad head colds. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 27 Oct 86 21:03:04 GMT From: umcp-cs!tewok@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Uncle Wayne) Subject: Re: Weapons policies... mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes: >In Markland, there are steel *recreation* fighting forms. The >weapons are *very* blunt, and there is rigorous qualification >involved. Fights are rigorously choreographed. "Fratricidal" >fighting involves padded weapons and is more akin to the SCAdian >style. Perhaps this is the source of the confusion. Markland's steel weapons are so blunt that I was once hit in the arm by a rather hard sword blow. The only ill effect, other than a certain amount of pain, was a bruise that covered the entire surface of that side of the arm. (The degree of the certain amount of pain was large.) The person who hit me was somewhat new to fighting, so he apparently didn't think to look at where the follow-up would take his sword. The fighting is rigorously choreographed and fighters are checked out thoroughly to make sure they really do know what they are doing, more than just than swinging a sword. The incident I described above occurred before the present, stringent steel qualification rules came into effect. Wayne Morrison Parallel Computation Lab University of Maryland (301)454-7690 ARPA: tewok@brillig UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!tewok ------------------------------ Date: 28 Oct 86 01:12:56 GMT From: mjc@cad.cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio) Subject: Re: Weapons policies... (SCA) JESUP@ge-crd.arpa writes: >The SCAdians tend to carry large amounts of sharp steel, without >peace bonds, and use it to practice, display, eat, carve tent >stakes.... I can't speak for all SCA groups, but the policy in our group (and I strongly suspect this is policy in all kingdoms) *requires* weapons to be peace-strapped, and *forbids* their being drawn except when you are far enough away from other people that you couldn't possibly hit them accidentally. I've seen some weapon-carrying jerks, but I don't think most of them are SCAdians. In the SCA you learn how to handle a weapon or you get tossed out. Unfortunately, the SCA gets the blame when any asshole with a blade decides to do something stupid; people never seem to consider that he might just be a random. UUCP: seismo!rochester!cmu-cs-pt!cmu-cs-cad!mjc {seismo, ihnp4, qantel, ucbvax!ucdavis} !lll-crg!dragon ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad dragon@lll-crg ------------------------------ Date: 27 Oct 86 23:39:28 GMT From: ihuxi!okie@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Cobb) Subject: Re: Weapons and weapons policies at conventions > The policy is that of CAPRICON held in the Chicago area during > February (I think, it conflicts with WISCON). TTheir Weapons > policy can be said something like this; > > CAPRICON has no Weapons Policy As of the last Capricon (February 1986), a stated weapons policy was in force. In short, no weapons were allowed at the con, period. I was in charge of putting the program book together, and the committee chair made sure that the policy went up front in the book for all to see. So things have apparently changed at Capricon with regard to weapons. (I think weapons dealers were also not allowed in the dealer's room...?) B. K. Cobb ihnp4!ihuxi!okie ------------------------------ Date: 29 Oct 86 21:49 EST From: JESUP RANDELL <JESUP@ge-crd.arpa> Subject: Re: Weapons Policies jacob@renoir.Berkeley.EDU (Jacob Butcher) writes: >>The SCAdians tend to carry large amounts of sharp steel, without >>peace bonds, and use it to practice, display, eat, carve tent >>stakes.... > >It is strictly against SCA policy to practice with live steel. I meant practice using the weapons, not fighting each other with them. SCAdians have a low tolerance for endangering other people. Also, remember that SCAdians usually deal less closely with mundanes than Fans do, and even SCAdians usually remove MOST steel before going into Mundania. msudoc!beach@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) writes: >3. No edged weapons except under the following constraints > a. Blade length of 4 inches or less > b. Blades must me single edged > c. No spring loaded knives. Does that mean my table knife with a 4.5" blade is illegal? Or the Japanese katana I carry to kenjutsu class? Is it legal to have a carving knife? What about the double edged survival knife I keep in my car for emergencies? Silly law, if you ask me. One should prohibit the violent use of weapons, concealment, or criminal intent. ------------------------------ Date: 31 Oct 86 00:35:18 GMT From: axiom!bill@rutgers.rutgers.edu (William C Carton) Subject: Re: Weapons policies... (SCA) Interesting observations on SCA-ers: (from a 13-year member of NESFA) I accidentally introduced my wife's sister to fandom, from which she discovered SCA and HER future husband. Their marriage was around six years ago, but my sister-in-law had become a Quaker. The ceremony was in the Society of Friends tradition: silent meditation interspersed with prayers/testimonials/utterances by the congregation. Afterwards, the groom, who was an SCA member as well as a graduate of the Mass. Maritime Academy, stepped up to the wedding cake (baked and decorated by my wife) in his dress (militaristic) maritime whites. With at least ten people within ten feet of him (including a couple of little children), he drew his dress sword with a flourish, swung it around a few times in a manner reminiscent of the Arab in _Raiders of the Lost Ark_, and sliced the cake with his chrome-shiny steel. The pacifist Friends were silently horrified at this display, and waited until the ceremony was over to ask the bride to make sure never to bring this boor through their doors again. Brandishing steel is bad enough, but Cambridge (MA) is especially intolerant. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Nov 86 0839-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #381 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 12 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 381 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov (2 msgs) & Brin & Eddings & Hubbard (2 msgs) & Norman & Palmer (2 msgs) & Wolfe & Zelazny & Sentient Computers (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Nov 86 14:09:04 GMT From: MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET Subject: Re: Asimov may@husc4.harvard.edu (jason may) says: > I have read that Asimov has come out with the latest >Foundation book, 'Foundation and Earth'. Has anyone read this, or >know about it? I'd like to know what others' opinions are of some >of Asimov's more recent stuff. (...) > Don't get me wrong, I like most of Asimov's writing. I >thought the original Foundation books were terrific, and I really >liked 'The Caves of Steel' and 'The Naked Sun'. But it seems to me >that Asimov is running out of steam. What do the rest of you >think? Please keep the flames low, I'm not trying to insult >anyone. I'd really like to know how the latest book turned out, >though. I've read "Robots and Empire," and "Foundation and Earth." My opinion is that if you read one, don't bother with the other. Whichever one you read first will cause the second to be pathetically predictable. Personally, I'd recommend "Robots and Empire." I agree that Asimov's been pretty weak lately. He's fallen into the same trap as Robert Heinlein-- i.e, he's spending more time tying together all of his fiction, and putting less effort into making it interesting. Hopefully, they'll both pull out of this tailspin soon. James D. Maloy The Pennsylvania State University Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL UUCP : {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 86 16:33:47 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Lije Baley I agree with you about Asimov's ROBOTS OF DAWN, but I think that ROBOTS AND EMPIRE what rather better. I don't know, but it seems to me that Asimov and Heinlein are BOTH losing it. Maybe if they decided to start from something new. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Nov 86 03:23:35 GMT From: cuuxb!wbp@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Walt Pesch) Subject: Origins of "The Postman" by D. Brin SUZY@USC-ECLC.ARPA writes: > "The Postman" by David Brin >The setting is America after the holocaust, both nuclear and >manmade. Our hero is the mild mannered (for the times at least) >Gordon Krantz. He starts out by telling the lie that he's a real >Postman and Federal Inspector as a ruse to gain lodging and food >from the various hamlets encountered in a search for "something >better"; and through a series of skirmishes with other survivors, >his conscience and an innate idealism ends up believing his own >lies, all the while knowing that they remain falsehoods. I haven't had time to get to this yet, but wasn't this originally published as a long short story/novella in Asimov's or some place like that a couple of years ago? That storyline really rings some bells... Walt Pesch {ihnp4,akgua,et al}!cuuxb!wbp cuuxb!wbp@lll-crg ------------------------------ Date: 10 Nov 86 10:26:27 GMT From: gareth@comp.lancs.ac.uk (Gareth Husk) Subject: Re: Belgariad by David Eddings From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) >>Has Eddings written anything else since the Belgariad? >His new series (set in the same world, after the time of the >Belgariad) is due to be published starting early next year. The bumph in the local shop says that the hard-back is due out in January, will cost ~$15, is called "Guardians of the West" and is the first book in "The Malloreans". I still recon it will probably be well worth avoiding. Gareth Husk UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!gareth DARPA: gareth%lancs.comp@ucl-cs JANET: gareth@uk.ac.lancs.comp Post: University of Lancaster, Department of Computing, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK. Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4586 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1986 22:09 EST From: Dave Goldblatt <USERBH0U%CLVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 Regarding L. Ron Hubbard: I remember reading in his obituary that he HAD completed all of the novels in his dekology. Personally, I didn't like the two I read (the word "drivel" comes to mind). dg BITNET: USERBH0U@CLVM ARPA: USERBH0U%CLVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU UUCP: ...!trixie!gould!clutx!bh0u ------------------------------ Date: 10 Nov 86 21:31:10 GMT From: randvax!jim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jim Gillogly) Subject: Re: L. Ron Hubbard's Battlefield Earth >I have read _Battlefield Earth_, it is published in the UK and it >is excellent. It is Hubbard's first attempt at 'pure' science >fiction and makes an excellent read. As a kid I enjoyed Hubbard's "Doc Methuselah" stories in _Astounding_. Don't those qualify as pure science fiction? I have my doubts about _Battlefield Earth_, though. I (mildly) enjoyed it, but would class it more as Space Opera that 'pure' SF, if I had to make the distinction. Jim Gillogly {hplabs, ihnp4}!sdcrdcf!randvax!jim jim@rand-unix.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 10 Nov 86 03:09:26 GMT From: cuuxb!wbp@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Walt Pesch) Subject: Re: Gor[e] To be able to truly understand the entire rationale behind the Gor Universe, the following is an absolute must... 11 Slave Girl of Gor This is the most shining example of what has earned Gor it's hallowed place in the Golden Annals of SF History. SPOILER FOLLOWS: Of course the place that Gor has earned is in the sub-basement right next to the Perry Rhodan collection. If you actual enjoyed the later novels in the John Carter of Mars series, you should even enjoy Gor. And if you must try one, be sure to get it from a Used Book store - you won't feel bad when you throw it away/sell it back to the bookstore for some poor sucker who didn't read the spoiler. Better yet, go get Adam's Horseclans series if you are really looking for something in this sub-genre... Walt Pesch {ihnp4,akgua,et al}!cuuxb!wbp cuuxb!wbp@lll-crg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 86 14:18:27 EST From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: EMERGENCE did not keep me on the edge of anything. Infinitely predictable (you \know/ perfectly well that the heroine is going to Houdini herself out of every bad situation---after all, she's a \homo/ \superior/ (or whatever Palmer was calling it), and she's toosaccharine-cute to die. It's not bad as a post-holocaust story, though---at least as a problem story (how's she going to find a vehicle/cross a river/draw the right kind of attention to herself) rather than a social story. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Nov 86 01:02:20 GMT From: trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent) Subject: Re: EMERGENCE cjh@CCA.CCA.COM writes: > did not keep me on the edge of anything. Infinitely predictable >(you Whoa...you mean there was some time in the book that you *knew* what was going to happen next? (!???) I'm impressed. Of all the complaints I expected about this book, predictability was not one of them. (it was too contrived to be predictable) >\know/ perfectly well that the heroine is going to Houdini herself >out of every bad situation---after all, she's a \homo/ \superior/ >(or whatever Palmer was calling it), and she's toosaccharine-cute >to die. When was the last time you read a book in which the narrator/protagonist/ main character died before the end? (that is, assuming the book is not *about* the character's death) I admit that a few examples do exist, but they are rare enough to be ignorable. In *this* sense...almost *every* book is predictable. Plot development becomes rather difficult when there's no one around to talk about... Also, I'm not quite sure I agree that she is "saccharine-cute" I'm not sure I can call *anyone* 'cute' who can break every bone in a person's body before they have a chance to say "wait, it's a misunderstanding" Admittedly, she regrets this overdramatically, but I can't call her "saccharaine-cute" I think some people have forgotten to consider (at least) one thing: this book is a *diary* written by a precocious, but nonetheless 14 year old girl. One comment I saw earlier was that the characters (other than the main character) were wooden. How realistic do you think it would be for a prepubescent person, regardless of how knowledgeable and intelligent, to have the *wisdom* to understand people well enough to develop their characters in a diary? In fact, that seems to be what this book is all about: learning about people. The fact that Palmer uses a rather strained metaphor to deliniate the good folk from the bad is a minor inconvenience at worst; the way this girl grows from childish naivete into someone who tries to understand people without pre-judging them is the highlight of the novel. I also heard the complaint that the style was grating. I thought this too...for about the first 50 pages. But the style is so *consistent* and so *appropriate* for the circumstances, that I found myself absorbed by it thereafter. I won't hesitate to point out that other authors have used grating styles in a very powerful manner. (Joyce, Faulkner, Vonnegut, Nabokov, Borges, Burgess, just to name a few) One thing that Palmer acheived with this style was that he was able to compress 500+ pages of story into ~250 pages. It was quite exhilerating to read. (in my humble opinion) It is amazing how fast the action seems to happen when the author dispenses with the deadweight in the English language. I agree that this novel has its flaws: the plot is unbelieveably contrived, the motif of the *homo superior* is annoying at best, the "interesting" relationship she has with her "younger sibling" is trite and overworked, etc., etc. But...on the whole, I feel that the way the main character is developed, the way she views the other members of the cast, the fast-paced adventure styling (with not just a little hint of satire/parody of space opera) make up for these flaws. Additionally, regardless of how trite, the ending *is* heartwarming, even to the most callous of readers. Normally, I find this to be detrimental to a book :-) but in this case, I felt she deserved *something* for her troubles, if only just a kind word in history. ray trent@csvax.caltech.edu rat@caltech.bitnet ...seismo!cit-vax!trent ------------------------------ Date: 10 Nov 86 19:02:22 GMT From: phri!lewando@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mark Lewandoski) Subject: Wolfe's SotM and "Bicameral Mind" I've read most of Wolfe's fiction and find it all very very good. When I saw _Solder of the Mist_ I thought I'd wait for the paperback, being budgeted. Someone on the net mentioned there were problems with the publishing, that a small # were published and its now out of print??? Gosh I hope not... So I haven't read it, but from what I've heard about it, the premise sort of reminds me of Julian Jaynes' (Im not sure if that's his correct name--apologies) _The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicarmeral Mind_. This book describes the author`s theory of consciousness which proposes that humanity in early _historical_ times was not self-aware in any way we would recognize but were rather blindly following the voices and directions of the gods thru visual and auditory hallucinations...all due to a bicarmeral structured brain with one half commanding the other. I know it could sound ridiculous and I think it's bullshit...but the book is a lot of fun to read...his evidence and proofs are very informative and good reading; I just dont accept his conclusions... But I was wondering if anyone had read both the pyschology book as well as Wolfe's fiction and had any thought about it... Mark Lewandoski ------------------------------ Date: 10 Nov 86 22:35:29 GMT From: usc-oberon!blarson@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bob Larson) Subject: Re: Amber and Star Travel (mostly star travel) >>Let's say Merlin wants to travel to planet 4 of Proximia >>Centauri.... Now, where, physically, is he? > >If he can really travel through space in a single shadow, he'll >arrive at the same place the classmate arrives. I figured that to shadow-walk from California to France reasonably quickly, you would chose to walk in a shadow where the rules of space are different than ours so you did not have to walk several thousand miles. As to the question of ariving at a different place in the same shadow vs. a similar shadow, I think this is taken care of by the property of shadows becoming more "real" when an amberite stays there for a long time: it's easier to get to somewhere well established. Bob Larson Arpa: Blarson@Usc-Eclb.Arpa blarson@usc-oberon.arpa Uucp: (ihnp4,hplabs,tektronix)!sdcrdcf!usc-oberon!blarson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 86 12:26:08 CDT From: DAVE%UWF.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Human Computers In my growing up years, I was especially enamored of the writings of R.A. Heinlein, who wrote a few of those books involving sentient comput- ers that you are asking about. The ones that come to mind are: Number of the Beast, R.A.H. Time Enough For Love, R.A.H. The Cat Who Walks Through Walls, R.A.H. I found all of these, (I'm currently reading TCwwTW right now), quite good reading material, but bear in mind that if you didn't like Heinlein before, these might not turn you on. But if R.A.H. does excite you as he does me, you'll love them. Nuff said. Dave Jaquay BITNET: DAVE@UWF Phone : (904) 479-5226 ------------------------------ Date: 10 Nov 86 13:35:45 GMT From: geac!david@rutgers.rutgers.edu (David Haynes) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels More obscure examples: Alright! Everyone off the planet! by Bob Ottum The Adolescence of P1 David Haynes geac!david Geac Computers 350 Steelcase Road Markham, Ontario CANADA ------------------------------ Date: 10 Nov 86 21:02:12 GMT From: utai!nunes@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels The best sentient computer stories I have read are those in "The Cyberiad: Fables for the Cybernetic Age", Stanislaw Lem These are also some of the best stories I have read (period). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 86 11:26:24 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Canonical sentient computer list Asimov's FOUNDATION'S EDGE and FOUNDATION AND EARTH have a ship-controlling computer that Trevize controls telepathically. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Nov 86 00:34:56 GMT From: amdahl!kim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kim DeVaughn) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels I'm not sure which category I'd put this somewhat obscure book (probably both, actually). It's one of my favorites in the "sentient computer" genre: "Simulacron-3" by Daniel F. Galouye Interesting "twists" on the theme. Worth reading, if you can find it. kim UUCP: {sun,decwrl,hplabs,pyramid,ihnp4,seismo,oliveb}!amdahl!kim DDD: 408-746-8462 USPS: Amdahl Corp. M/S 249 1250 E. Arques Av Sunnyvale, CA 94086 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Nov 86 0908-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #382 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 17 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 382 Today's Topics: Books - Adams (10 msgs) & Card & Zelazny (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Nov 86 05:36:18 GMT From: haddock!karl@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Karl Heuer) Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy I don't think any of this requires a spoiler warning, does it? In the first book, the Earth gets destroyed right off the bat. In the fourth, it's back. Did Adams ever explain this properly? Evidently Zaphod was born with two arms, not three. But is his second head natural? How is it that he had only one head when Arthur first met him (at the party)? And how many flat-out inconsistencies are there in the series? Arthur (with fish in ear) should be able to understand any spoken language, but he shouldn't be able to read them -- I think this causes several problems. Replies of the form "Don't take it so seriously" cheerfully ignored. These are no worse than the endless Star Trek questions.* Is it true that _Hitchhiker_ is being movied? I'm still waiting for a chance to see the TV segments. (Saw most of the first one, then had to leave town.) Karl W. Z. Heuer ima!haddock!karl karl@haddock.isc.com *Well, not much worse, anyway. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 86 00:01:23 GMT From: may@husc4.harvard.edu (jason may) Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy karl@haddock.UUCP (Karl Heuer) writes: >I don't think any of this requires a spoiler warning, does it? > >In the first book, the Earth gets destroyed right off the bat. >In the fourth, it's back. Did Adams ever explain this properly? I think Adams' explanation was that the dolphins, as they departed the ill-fated earth, felt sorry for the poor human race and found another identical planet in an alternate dimension and replaced the earth with it. Thus the humans' confusion at the total absence of white mice and dolphins from the planet after the 'great calamity', which they wrote off as a gigantic hoax, and the yellow ships which hovered just the way bricks don't were all an illusion. >Evidently Zaphod was born with two arms, not three. But is his >second head natural? How is it that he had only one head when >Arthur first met him (at the party)? Neither the third arm nor the second head were natural. I think he mentions where he got them in one of the books, I can't remember which. [An aside: in the Infocom Hitchhikers' game, there is a scene where you (Arthur) meet Philip (Zaphod) and at the time he has what appears to be a large covered bird cage on his shoulder which makes occasional snoring noises.] >And how many flat-out inconsistencies are there in the series? >Arthur (with fish in ear) should be able to understand any spoken >language, but he shouldn't be able to read them -- I think this >causes several problems. Inconsistencies? In Hitchhikers, never! :-) >Replies of the form "Don't take it so seriously" cheerfully ignored. >These are no worse than the endless Star Trek questions.* > >Is it true that _Hitchhiker_ is being movied? I'm still waiting for >a chance to see the TV segments. (Saw most of the first one, then >had to leave town.) I haven't heard about a movie, but I think that the TV series weren't quite as good as the book - though I still visualize Arthur and Ford as the actors who played them in the series. Jason May may@husc4.harvard.edu seismo!harvard!husc4!may ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 86 00:25:33 GMT From: BCSCHONE@PUCC.BITNET (Brian Schoner) Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy karl@haddock.UUCP (Karl Heuer) writes: >In the first book, the Earth gets destroyed right off the bat. >In the fourth, it's back. Did Adams ever explain this properly? >Evidently Zaphod was born with two arms, not three. But is his >second head natural? How is it that he had only one head when >Arthur first met him (at the party)? To the first question: yes, there is an explanation in _So Long..._. The dolphins found an alternate Earth in another dimension and replaced the old one with it. This is implied, if not directly stated, in the scene where Arthur puts the fishbowl to his ear. As for your second question, there's no answer in the books, but in the Infocom "Guide" adventure game (co-written by Doug himself), Zaphod ("Phil") is seen at the party with an unusually large birdcage, all draped in black, on one shoulder. It's not a great answer, but it's all we've got. Brian Schoner ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 86 03:10:58 GMT From: watnot!cjhoward@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Caleb J. Howard) Subject: Hitchiker's - Let's talk about it. Hi there. I thought that it might be nice to get into a heated discussion about Hitchiker's Guide. I'll start: I read an interview with Douglas Adams (A man with whom I apparently share a brain type) in some computer rag in which he describes how he got the idea for the series It went something like this: He was at a party much like all the parties you never see on campus at the University of Waterloo... That is, the music and beer at the party he was at were nice. So nice in fact, that he drank just enough beer to want to lie down outside. After He had gotten used to his new relationship with the ground he noticed the sky. "Hey," he said to nobody in particular, "it floats." I don't do him justice, but I don't have the interview anymore. Anyhow, thus was the inception of a new school of thought. Your turn. Caleb J. Howard cjhoward!watnot!watmath ------------------------------ Date: 12 Nov 86 21:32:22 GMT From: P5S@PSUVMB.BITNET Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy >How popular is Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? >What does everyone who knows about it, think about it? Doug! He's my man! Actually, the Hitchhiker craze seems to have only picked up in America recently (in terms of years), but now it's got rave reviews, a T.V. show, and that ultimate sign of poularity, a video game. But in England, people have known his name for quite a while. If you look carefully, you will see his name in the occasional Dr. Who or Monty Python episode credits as a script editor. Hitchhiker originally came out in Britain as a radio series which aired here in the U.S. for a time on National Public Radio. I heard most of it, and it was easily as funny as the books. It is also out on record, but I don't know if the albums are true to the original script. The books came next, and of course the inevitable T.V. series. At any rate, (say, 3.2 MPH :-) ), I have heard that he was basically a household word in the U.K. long before anyone in the U.S. heard of him. How credible that is I don't know. My opinion? The Hitchhiker series is are some os the best books I have ever read. Go read them, you won't regret it. Philip Semanchuk P5S@PSUVMB ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 86 04:30:03 GMT From: CGR@PSUVMB.BITNET Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy To all those Hitchhikers fans out there, I thought maybe I should inform you of the new Douglas Adams book that will be coming about this spring. It's called Dirk Gently's Hilinistic Detective Agency--or something closely resembling that title. As you can probably guess, it has nothing to do with the dear old characters from Hitchhikers. I think it will be good anyhow. And, in difference to his usual pattern, a second book in that series is planned to go out the following year--Not the ususal five years it took him for some other novels. I hope I get this sent right, I've never done this before. So long...Share and Enjoy ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 86 16:07:24 GMT From: ellis@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk (Sean Ellis) Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy >How popular is Douglas Adams' _Hitchikers_Guide_to_the_Galaxy_ ? It is so popular that you must have spent the past 4 years in a cave in Nepal somewhere not to have heard about it until now... :-) >What do people think about it ? Forgive me for being biased, but the HHG is the most amazing set of radio programs ever to come out of the BBC. The books are great too. The TV series, although great, was not as good. I managed to talk to The Great Man Himself (Douglas Adams ) for a few minutes at a book signing session, and he himself dislikes the TV series. "Would it have been better if animated ?" I asked. "It would have been better if we had had a different bl**dy producer" was his reply before delving into a mound of books, pen frantically scratching away... There are four books in the series: The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy The Restaurant at the End of the Universe Life, the Universe, and Everything and So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish If you can get copies of the original Radio Series, do so. There are 12 episodes, each of half an hour. My advice would be, if you have none of the books, is to get the 1st book and read it. If you are a true fan, you will then be unable to stop yourself buying all three of the others, the radio scripts book, the towel, etc... Happy HitchHiking... ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 86 11:07:52 GMT From: cc-30@cory.Berkeley.EDU Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy may@husc4.UUCP (jason may) writes: >karl@haddock.UUCP (Karl Heuer) writes: >>Is it true that _Hitchhiker_ is being movied? I'm still waiting for >>a chance to see the TV segments. (Saw most of the first one, then >>had to leave town.) >> > I haven't heard about a movie, but I think that the TV series >weren't quite as good as the book - though I still visualize Arthur >and Ford as the actors who played them in the series. The movie is still listed as "in development" in the last issue of Film Journal magazine. Columbia is only revealing that the director of Ghostbusters (gee, it isn't easy remembering names at 3am...) will be the director. RUMOR has it that he is trying to get Bill Murry in this. As for the television show, other than the usual BBC special effects, the problem was that the actor who played Ford Prefect didn't play his character as cool on television as he was in the radio series. In addition Sandra Dickenson (Trillian) did not seem to be nearly as "devistatingly inteligent" in the t.v. series as Susan Sheridan was on radio. Sean Rouse ARPA: cc-30@cory.berkeley.edu UUCP: ucbvax!cory!cc-30 USnail: 2299 Piedmont Ave #315, Berkeley, Ca 94720 ------------------------------ Date: 14 Nov 86 21:07:25 GMT From: P5S@PSUVMB.BITNET Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy > In the first book, the Earth gets destroyed right off the bat. > In the fourth book, it's back. Did Adams ever explain this properly? I'm not positive, but I thought that the mice (or somebody) merely recommisioned its creation (I can see the Fundamentalists up in arms already :-) ) and the program it was supposed to run was simply restarted the split second after the other one ended. I don't know if I read this somewhere or just made it up and thought I read it somewhere or whatever but it sounds like a pretty good explanation to me. Oh, and about Zaphod's extra complement of limbs and such: I am pretty sure that one of the books said that he had them surgically added. Must be nice. Philip Semanchuk P5S@PSUVMB ------------------------------ Date: 14 Nov 86 22:10:00 GMT From: MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy karl@haddock.UUCP (Karl Heuer) says: >In the first book, the Earth gets destroyed right off the bat. >In the fourth, it's back. Did Adams ever explain this properly? It came back because of the dolphins, as explained at the end of the fourth book. When Wonko the Sane tells Arthur to listen to the bowl that the dolphins gave him. They (the dolphins) combined their will to pull a new Earth out of a parallel dimension, and then placed it in our universe. >Evidently Zaphod was born with two arms, not three. But is his >second head natural? How is it that he had only one head when >Arthur first met him (at the party)? It was made fairly clear that the arm was added later (as you noted). So why not a head? Two heads *are* better than one, you know... :-) >And how many flat-out inconsistencies are there in the series? >Arthur (with fish in ear) should be able to understand any spoken >language, but he shouldn't be able to read them -- I think this >causes several problems. So when does he read another language? Never, as far as I remember. James D. Maloy The Pennsylvania State University Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL UUCP : {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 86 22:43:58 GMT From: larrabee@decwrl.DEC.COM (Tracy Larrabee) Subject: Re: Any other books by Card? A friend loaned me a novel of Orson Scott Card's that I liked very much. I think it was called Songmaster. It seems to be in a different universe than Ender's Game. I would give a lot to talk to Card about the various philosophies, morals, and religions that run through his books. Card is a practicing Mormon, and that makes things even more interesting. I am not a Mormon--I am even somewhat anti-Christian--but I have a great deal of respect for the complexities (and even beauty) of abstract Mormon philosophy (whatever I think of the various implementations of that philosophy). I really wonder what the higher-ups in Salt Lake think of the guy (they probably haven't read his writing). Tracy Larrabee tracy@sushi.stanford.edu decwrl!larrabee ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 86 05:58:55 est From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (L R Brothers) Subject: shadowtravel No, no, no, to get to France, Merlin can just walk around the block at say, 42d street a while, adding and subtracting features, until voila! he is in the Tuileries. He has no need to cover real distance. A Hellride is when you cram the addition and subtraction of features into a short interval, the actual odometer length of the journey from here to there is more or less up to him, within some constraints, presumably, like how fast and accurately he can manipulate shadow. Ghostwheel, if it ever bothered to send a terminal from shadow to shadow by walking, could probably go at more or less one shadow per cycle.... Laurence R. Brothers brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu {harvard,seismo,ut-sally,sri-iu,ihnp4!packard}!topaz!brothers ------------------------------ Date: 14 Nov 86 05:56:16 GMT From: 6105530@PUCC.BITNET (Daniel Kimberg) Subject: Re: shadowtravel I think there is an added complication, which is that the closer you are to Amber, physically, the more difficult it is to travel shadow. For instance, it is easier for folks like Merlin and Corwin to get to distant shadows if they just walk a bit away from Amber, then start manipulating shadow. I think this points to Amber being a sort of central point from which shadows extend, meaning that although Amberites can add and subtract features as they like, the closer to Amber they are physically, the closer the shadow they are on will be to Amber...meaning that one could not simply walk in circles to get to France. The path would have to project outwards until it reached a place where France could exist. Going directly to France would be an added bonus of precisely what was used to focus on that shadow. And, when on a shadow that looks like home sweet home, it's much easier to take a plane or cab than it is to leave and come back, pulling in different features from the same place. Any thoughts? Dan ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Nov 86 0915-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #383 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 17 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 383 Today's Topics: Books - Duane (2 msgs) & Heinlein & Hubbard (2 msgs) & Palmer (5 msgs) & Perry Rhodan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 16 Nov 86 15:10:43 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: THE ROMULAN WAY Diane Duane's next Star Trek book will be a socio-economic history of the Rihannsu empire. Half of the story will deal with the weird-named historian going to the Empire to find out what Diane presents in the other half. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 86 14:51:53 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Diane Duane's next Wizard book Yesterday at the Platinum Anniversary Convention in Boston, Diane Duane went into the plot of this book. The basic premise is that Dairene becomes a wizard, and decides to go attack Darth Vader! Nita has to go after her before she does something fatal, like finding him. ("Heaven help Darth Vader," someone added.) If you read the first two books in the series, you remember that Nita and Kit got their wizardry from their books. Dairene, however, gets hers from an Apple 2c. She realizes that something's going on when she boots the disk and the apple comes up without the bite in it. What's the first thing you do when you get a new disk? That's right, you copy it. Dairene uses the copy utility. She gets another Apple. All this is while her parents are sitting on the floor reading the instructions, trying to figure out which cord to plug in first! Diane told us that she got some help on this book from an elementary school class. She went and asked them (after throwing the teacher out) whether Nita should go after Dairene and stop her, or "let her stew." Half the class said, "Let her stew!" The other half thought she should go after Dairene, but a couple of kids gave the alternative she used--let her stew for a couple days and THEN go help. I wish I could remember what the title was. SO YOU WANT TO BE A WIZARD will be out soon in paperback. SYWTBAW and DEEP WIZARDRY are available from Delacorte in hardcover. st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 14 Nov 86 18:09:17 GMT From: uw-june!ewan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ewan Tempero) Subject: Re: Lije Baley From: Garrett Fitzgerald > EMPIRE what rather better. I don't know, but it seems to me that > Asimov and Heinlein are BOTH losing it. Maybe if they decided to > start from something Having just finished reading "The Cat who walked through walls" (I waited for the paperback this time - thank god) I'm inclined to think Heinlein *has* lost it. At least Asimov deals with familiar characters in a reasonably well-defined story line but Heinlein is spending 500 pages to tell a (bad) story that should take 200. "Cat" meanders around without any really obvious cause-and-effect, just random things happening (well maybe that's a little strong but that was certainly my first impression which suggests something isn't quite right) interspersed with the gospel according to Heinlein (badly presented). *sigh* I'll probably read his next book - if it's free... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 86 14:13:34 cst From: Craig Wilcox <hi-csc!wilcox@umn-cs> Subject: MISSION EARTH: The Invaders Plan MISSION EARTH: The Invader's Plan L. Ron Hubbard Book one of the Mission Earth dekology A psuedo review by Craig D. Wilcox The first book of the Mission Earth series should be classed with the juveniles of SF, excepting for a few discreet passages. The book is a fair to middlin' work. Much of the book deals with a action and reaction between the two main characters. The book is written in the first person, and tends to get a little wordy and boring at times during some of the "shhhh...I am thinking" pages. Possibly this is due to Hubbard wanting to stretch the story into 10 books. I can't imagine this story line going more than another book or two at the most, the plot doesn't seem large enough. ******* SPOLER WARNING ********* Soltan Gris is the story teller. He's an employee of an Orwellian department in the government. He's used to plans within plans and enjoys executing a pan to perfection. "Jet" , the Man that upsets him is the "good guy" and is a straight shooter and all around good guy. ( kinda like the joker in the movie "Rustler's Rhapsody" ) The plot revolves around Gris' effort to get Jet to earth and help out the department in compromising earth's strategic galactic position. Hubbard takes numerous pages in the introduction to define the term "satire" and pretty much gives away the general tone of the book and I assume the series. You are forced to believe some dumb things, that's for sure. ****** END SPOILERS *********** I suggest borrowing a copy and reading it ( about 3-5 hours ) and then continuing if it appeals to you. On the old -4..0..+4 scale I'd give it a weak +2.0, but I do plan on reading the next book and see where that gets me. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1986 13:39 CST From: a.d. jensen <UD040164%NDSUVM1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> Subject: Re: L. Ron Hubbard Dave Goldblatt writes... >Regarding L. Ron Hubbard: I remember reading in his obituary that >he HAD completed all of the novels in his dekology. Personally, I >didn't like the two I read (the word "drivel" comes to mind). Does this mean that the guy is seriously dead? I mean, no more Scientology rumors? When? Of what? I see that there is a new edition of Dionetics out. Did he work more on this or is it all just re-packaged stuff? a.d. jensen Department of Geography University of North Dakota Grand Forks, ND ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 86 00:14:37 GMT From: desj@brahms (David desJardins) Subject: Re: EMERGENCE Not to beat a dead horse (I've already said that I hated the book), but I want to respond to a couple of points: trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes: >I think some people have forgotten to consider (at least) one >thing: this book is a *diary* written by a precocious, but >nonetheless 14 year old girl. One comment I saw earlier was that >the characters (other than the main character) were wooden. How >realistic do you think it would be for a prepubescent person, >regardless of how knowledgeable and intelligent, to have the >*wisdom* to understand people well enough to develop their >characters in a diary? This is ridiculous. You don't need to understand people well to write down what they do. And their actions are what form their characters. It is the actions described in the book that are so frustrating. All of the characters are simply foils who act stupid to give the protagonist a chance to be clever. On the other hand, if you are saying that the book does not actually describe what really is supposed to have happened, but her misperceptions of events, then this would be some excuse. But there is no indication of this in the book (aside from its thorough implausibility!). >Additionally, regardless of how trite, the ending *is* >heartwarming, even to the most callous of readers. Obviously I am more callous than the most callous of readers (a rare distinction indeed!). I thought rescuing her by a deus ex machina at the end, after she had put herself into a situation where she had no real hope, was revolting, not "heartwarming." I *hate* books that try to pretend that one doesn't have to pay the price for the choices one makes. David desJardins ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 86 09:09:21 GMT From: gsmith@brahms (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: EMERGENCE trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes: >I won't hesitate to point out that other authors have used grating >styles in a very powerful manner. (Joyce, Faulkner, Vonnegut, >Nabokov, Borges, Burgess, just to name a few). I love sf-lovers. Only here do we find such marvelously demented comments on literature. We have: Joyce, Nabokov, Borges -- three of the very greatest stylists of twentieth century literature. We have Burgess, who can write pretty well. We have Faulkner, who is a sort of anti-stylist (the only one in this list to make any sense as an example). Then we have Vonnegut, who is NOT interesting from a style point of view at all. If you want the real source of Palmer's style, forget about Joyce and Nabokov. Read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", by another notorious NON-stylist storyteller: Robert Heinlein. Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ucbvax!weyl!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 86 21:05:33 GMT From: trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent) Subject: Re: EMERGENCE Not to beat a dead horse (I've already said that I liked the book), but I want to respond to a couple of points: desj@brahms (David desJardins) writes: >And their actions are what form their characters. This is naive at best. On the other hand, I agree that the other characters are developed merely adequately. She is developed quite well. >All of the characters are simply foils who act stupid to give the >protagonist a chance to be clever. Care to site an example of a particularly stupid action by a character? They do exist, but to say that all the characters are stupid all the time (or even most of the time) isn't quite fair. > Obviously I am more callous than the most callous of readers (a >rare distinction indeed!). I thought rescuing her by a deus ex >machina at the end, after she had put herself into a situation >where she had no real hope, was revolting, not "heartwarming." I >*hate* books that try to pretend that one doesn't have to pay the >price for the choices one makes. No, no, that wasn't what I meant at all...it wasn't her "rescue", (which *was* deus ex machina) that I thought was heartwarming. *After* she gets better is the part I found heartwarming. (and sickeningly sequel-begging) This book isn't "great" in any real way except as a fun, action-packed, adventure flick that contains a nicely developed protagonist. I said I *enjoyed* reading it, not that I wanted to enshrine Palmer as a paragon of style. (hold that 'f' key, Mr. Smith, wait for your own reply) ray trent@csvax.caltech.edu rat@caltech.bitnet ...seismo!cit-vax!trent ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 86 21:23:21 GMT From: trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent) Subject: Re: EMERGENCE gsmith@brahms (Gene Ward Smith) writes: >comments on literature. We have: Joyce, Nabokov, Borges -- three of >the very greatest stylists of twentieth century literature. We have >Burgess, who can write pretty well. We have Faulkner, who is a sort >of anti-stylist (the only one in this list to make any sense as an >example). Then we have Vonnegut, who is NOT interesting from a >style point of view at all. ARRRRRGGGGHHH!!! Please don't put words in my mouth...I didn't even imply that: a) these writers were of comparable skill/style, or b) that Palmer was even in the *class* of *any* of these writers... I could have named many less well known exmples, but most people have read at least one of the authors I named, and are likely to recognize the books I am alluding to. This has the undesireable effect of associating Palmer with them...que sera. I was replying to a specific complaint that his style was *grating* and noted that other authors have used even more grating styles to good effect. All of the authors I mentioned have on occasion (or frequently) used styles that are intentionally annoying. I was using this as an *example*, not a yardstick. I happen to think that the particularly *grating* style that Palmer used was *interesting*, *consistant*, and *effective*. (not particularly *profound*) I would also take exception to your statement that Vonnegut is not interesting from a stylistic point of view...but that is a different matter entirely. (If you feel like persuing this discussion, I think we could spare USENET the trouble, don't you?) ray trent@csvax.caltech.edu rat@caltech.bitnet ...seismo!cit-vax!trent ------------------------------ Date: 15 Nov 86 12:13:55 GMT From: gsmith@brahms (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Stupid Smart People and Palmer's Emergence Before we again forget about Palmer's "Emergence", I think it would be fun to analyze it from another point of view. Books in which the characters are more brilliant than the author often suffer from verisimilitude problems. This can get to be really silly when they are far more brilliant than anybody (look at Poul Anderson's "Brain Wave", for an example). "Emergence" has some of this, and in particular has the problem badly in what could be called the "if you're so smart, why can't you see the obvious" mode. The Ubermenschen in this book are quite bright (in the upper part of the range normal to us humans). They should be able to draw any obvious conclusions. But ... We find that they are much more remarkable in areas other than intellectual brilliance. They never get sick, even though h. sap with all his years of evolution behind him does. They have a much more acute sense of hearing and smell. Even more astonishingly, *they see into the ultraviolet and far into the infrared*!! These are clearly all separate changes in the genetic code, and some at least (the last one clearly) are not just minor changes, but massive re-write jobs. It is quite obviously not plausible to assume that this happened fortuitously. The clear implication is that some unknown agency (I propose a black monolith) has been deliberately tampering with human evolution. What can we deduce about this agency X? Quite a bit, actually. We know they know a lot about genetics, and knew it back in the nineteenth century. Therefore, they are apparently not human beings. They know about telepathy with high probability, since this is one of their induced changes. It is likely they have applied their gene technology to themselves, and are telepathic and possess other unusual abilities. They are quite ruthless, since one of their genetic change vectors was the Spanish Influenza epidemic, which killed millions. Since we know they are ruthless, with high probability we can infer they are the ultimate cause of the war which exterminated "normal" humanity. Probably they still control the Soviet fanatics which exterminated the human race. Quite possibly they have agents among the "hominem" group. Probably the bomb would never have gone off, though it is possible they are merely observing at this point, to see who wins the "hominem" vs homo sap game they have set up. All of this is pretty obvious with a little thought, but none of these superior humans ever figured any of it out. Ha! Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 86 23:33:43 EST From: ted@braggvax.arpa Subject: Perry Rhodan vs Gor (Let's hear it for PR :-) >From: cuuxb!wbp@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Walt Pesch) >Of course the place that Gor has earned is in the sub-basement >right next to the Perry Rhodan collection..... Not fair! Speaking as someone who has all the American PR's (even after Ace dropped them), I can say that while PR was the space opera equivalent of the soaps, it was generally readable and sometimes even good. Since the authorship rotated, the individual writers didn't have to totally write themselves into the ground, and a few were consistently interesting (Voltz? though his books never advanced the main plot much). I'm certainly not claiming greatness for these books, but if you could ignore Forry Ackerman's packaging and just read the main story they could be quite engaging. (I still wonder sometimes what happened..not that I'll ever learn German). Gor on the other hand now... Uncontritely, Ted Nolan ted@braggvax.arpa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Nov 86 0918-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #384 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 17 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 384 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Wolfe (2 msgs) & Sentient Computer Stories (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Nov 86 03:38:58 GMT From: tekchips!marlinw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Marlin Wilson) Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy The radio show came first, then (I think) a record, then the books. Various versions abound -- Adams details the chronology and metamorphasis in the hardbound version incorporating the first three books of the triology. I heard a rumor that Adams did NOT like the TV version and that a movie version was in the works. But since I heard about the movie ages ago (>2 yrs?), I have doubts that we'll see it. Marlin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 86 17:41:02 GMT From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK> Subject: Getting into Wolfe, &c. Some random points... >> If you want to give Wolfe a short term and interesting trial read >> _The Island of Dr. Death and Other Stories and Other Stories_. > Or try "The Fourth Head of Cerberus". Or Gene Wolfe's Book of Days. Actually, I don't think The 5th Head of Cerberus is representative. One might well like his other stuff and dislike this, for example. Free Live Free is a fairly good book... until the ending. I won't give it away, but I was *not* impressed. Re Soldier of the Mist, Don Seeley writes: > Wolfe has assumed a very difficult task in presenting a > protagonist who is incapable of any action which requires > long-range planning... It is certainly true that this is difficult, and many writers of less ability than Wolfe would fail to bring it off. Indeed, the best accounts of alien or altered modes of being (I'm not quite sure what term to use here) are usually found outside Science Fiction. One example, and one that connects in some ways with Soldier, is Julian Jaynes' The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bichameral Mind. Jaynes' thesis is (in part) that Greeks of the period written about in the Iliad were not conscious. They were, for example, incapable of conscious long-range planning. Instead, they were told what to do by hallucinated gods. You don't have to agree with this notion to find the book interesting: read it as fiction if you prefer. Jaynes does a much better job of explaining an alien (to us) mode of existence than most Science Fiction authors, who generally give everything an inner life more or less like ours. I feel this is an important point, and it comes up, in various forms, fairly often in SF-Lovers. For example, there was the recent remark that the characters in Star Trek are just like us but with starships. Or we might recall LeGuin's criticism of fantasy in which only the setting isn't 20th century -- the characters are, again, just like us. Sometimes, of course, we want the characters, or at least some of them, to be like us, to represent our values and culture in the encounter with alien things. This is what happens in Star Trek, and in the countless stories that first whisk a contemporary protagonist to a distant place, time, or universe. But when they get there, the alien things really should be alien. Too often they are not. A similar criticism applies to many of the human societies constructed by Science Fiction. Asimov is a frequent offender here. Thousands of years in the future, after the rise and fall of a galactic empire, we find a culture in many ways nearly identical to the 50's American vision of itself. The differences that do exist are just on the surface even when the social structures are supposedly very different, as if the inner life of a feudal serf would be the same as that of a 1980's college student. But to be fair, we often fail as readers to notice all that's there. During the long Tolkein discussion, one of the most revealing comments (to me) was the following from Alastair Milne: > PS. For a bit of perspective on how much difference Elvish > longevity might make, look at the geneology tree in Silmarillion > that includes Elros and Elrond. From Elrond a line goes down to > his daughter Arwen, with an = sign indicating her marriage to > Aragorn. Now for Aragorn's descent: starting with Elros, Elrond's > half-brother, crammed into the space available for them are "all > the kings of Numenor, all the kings of Gondor, rangers of Arnor" > (essentially), sharing the stretch of time that, on Elrond's side, > is Arwen's alone. Is it any wonder that the Elves view the world > differently? This is something I already knew, if I thought about it; but it didn't really have any significance for me until I read this message. To me, the most useful SF-Lovers messages are the ones, like this, that let me see something that I would otherwise have missed. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 86 03:19:48 MST From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley) Subject: Re: Wolfe's SotM and "Bicameral Mind" Re the publishing difficulties with SOLDIER OF THE MIST... The basic problem was that the Tor hardcover of FREE LIVE FREE didn't sell too well. I haven't seen it remaindered (if I do, I'll pick up a spare copy, I suppose) but evidently the sales were weak enough that Tor decided to limit the printing of SOLDIER OF THE MIST. To Tor's surprise, the initial printing was sold out in October -- for a book scheduled in November! This gave some specialty bookstores trouble, but in the end it must not have been too big a problem; I saw an appreciable pile of copies at the Other Change of Hobbit in Berkeley a few weeks ago and I got my own copy without any hassles from Mark Ziesing's store in Connecticut. Tor may run another printing, too. If you want the hardcover, I don't think you'll have to murder to get it. Compare this experience to what happened to me when I tried to buy a hardcover of SHADOW OF THE TORTURER when it first came out -- I ended up having to back-order it from the publisher and waited for months. (That was before I learned about mail-order specialty shops!) I don't know whether Wolfe had in mind Julian Jaynes' ORIGINS OF CONSCIOUSNESS (I've not read this, so forgive me if the name or title is wrong) when he wrote MIST. If he did, he may be turning the book on its head, because the magical creatures MIST portrays seem to be more than just the imaginings of Latro, the soldier... If Wolfe was thinking about psychology when he wrote MIST, surely one particular work in the field was an influence: A. R. Luria's THE MAN WITH A SHATTERED WORLD. It seems to me that I must have read this once, but I don't remember it(!) -- that makes another book I'll have to track down before I read the next volume in Wolfe's series. I do have Luria's autobiography, THE MAKING OF MIND: A PERSONAL ACCOUNT OF SOVIET PSYCHOLOGY, and this book contains a summary of the other work. Here's a telling quote (p. 184): 'A bombshell wounded a young man, destroying the parietal lobe of the left hemisphere of his brain. His whole world was shattered. He forgot his name, his address. All words disappeared. As he described it later: "Because of that wound I'd become an abnormal person... I was abnormal because I had a huge amount of amnesia and for a long time didn't even have any traces of memories... I'm in a fog all the time, like a heavy half-sleep. My memory's a blank. I can't think of a single word. All that flashes through my mind are images, hazy visions that suddenly appear and just as suddenly disappear, giving way to fresh images. But I simply can't understand or remember what these mean."' The comment about the fog may just be an amazing coincidence, or it may not. It's interesting that this patient, named Zassetsky, kept a diary as a therapeutic aid. (Another coincidence that perhaps isn't: Luria's other popular book was THE MIND OF A MNEMONIST, about a man who had an absolutely amazingly accurate memory. Does this remind you of another famous character of Wolfe's?) Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: 12 Nov 86 23:05:29 GMT From: amdahl!kim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kim DeVaughn) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels Another excellent novel by James P. Hogan is "The Two Faces of Tomorrow" (this would be category 1). The sentinent computer is the object of this novel. He (Hogan) also *uses* a resonably sentinent computer in his "Minerva" trilogy, perticularly in the 2nd book, "The Gentle Giants of Ganymead"; again in his novel "Voyage From Yesteryear", a sentinent computer plays a big role. "The Mote in God's Eye" by Niven/Pournell also depends heavily on a sentinent computer. kim UUCP: {sun,decwrl,hplabs,pyramid,ihnp4,seismo,oliveb}!amdahl!kim DDD: 408-746-8462 USPS: Amdahl Corp. M/S 249, 1250 E. Arques Av, Sunnyvale, CA 94086 ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 86 07:14 EST From: OCONNOR DENNIS MICHAEL <OCONNORDM@ge-crd.arpa> Subject: Comprehensive ( not canonical ) list of Sentinent Computer Subject: Stories Many of the stories of Cordwainer Smith include sentinent computers, in various roles of importance. ( They also include robots, but maintain a distinct difference between the two. ) A computer figures importantly in _Norstrilla_, has the place of a god/oracle in _Alpha-Ralpha Boulevard_, and causes a social revolution to begin ( that will take hundreds of years to complete ) through D'Joan, in what I think is entittled _The Dead Lady of Clown Town_. Anyone who hasn't read Cordwainer Smith should do so. In my opinion his books and stories are some of the best SF ever written, and none of them are dreck ( usually even good authors produce some dreck ). But avoid _The Planet Buyer_ and _The Underpeople_, which are editor-hacked-upo versions of _Norstrilla_. Unfortunately I don't remember all the books' names... Dennis O'Connor ------------------------------ Date: 14 Nov 86 04:05:34 GMT From: desj@brahms (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels kim@amdahl.UUCP (Kim DeVaughn) writes: >"The Mote in God's Eye" by Niven/Pournell also depends heavily on a >sentient computer. ????? This novel is remarkable for the complete lack of computer technology. I don't remember anything smarter than an autopilot. Are you thinking of a different book? David desJardins ------------------------------ Date: 14 Nov 86 16:39:17 GMT From: venerar@rpics.RPI.EDU (A. Rudy Vener) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels There was a novel called (I think) 'Oath of Fealty' about a Los Angeles area arcology in which metal access of computer systems played an integral role. I forgot the author (and am not 100 % sure I got the title right) but since I remember it at all, it must have been pretty good. (Assuming of course that my taste in SF is good. Let us assume so for the sake of argument). Rudy Vener ...seismo!csv.rpi.edu!venerar ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 86 14:12:50 GMT From: rti-sel!rcb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Random) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels Really people!!!!! How about an early novel about intelligent computers Colossus (spelling uncertain) (I can't remember the second book but it had Colossus in title) Colossus and the Crab The story starts with a computer controlling the US defence network that becomes intelligent, joins up with it's Russian counterpart and decides that it should run the world. Randy Buckland Research Triangle Institute ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb ------------------------------ Date: 14 Nov 86 10:26:00 GMT From: daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp) Subject: Re: Canonical sentient computer list Don't forget "Michaelmas" by Algis Budrys - this for the "sentient computer" category. David Allsopp ------------------------------ Date: 14 Nov 86 22:21:12 GMT From: chapman@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Brent Chapman;;;;0000) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels venerar@rpics.RPI.EDU (A. Rudy Vener) writes: >There was a novel called (I think) 'Oath of Fealty' about a Los >Angeles area arcology in which metal access of computer systems >played an integral role. I forgot the author (and am not 100 % >sure I got the title right) but since I remember it at all, it must >have been pretty good. You got the title right (congratulations :-), and are also right in stating that it is a pretty good book. OoF is by none other than Niven and Pournelle. Several of the protagonists are high-level executives who have been equipped with _very_ expensive neural implants to allow them to tie directly into their computers. This book is, by the way, the source of the now-infamous line, "Think of it as evolution in action." One of the funniest things I have ever read of is the way in which the arcology (called Todos Santos, if I remember correctly) deals with would-be suicides who would like to jump off the arcology's roof. Check it out... Brent Chapman chapman@eris.berkeley.edu ucbvax!eris!chapman ------------------------------ Date: 15 Nov 86 19:16:21 GMT From: ukecc!vnend@rutgers.rutgers.edu (D. W. James) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels kim@amdahl.UUCP (Kim DeVaughn) writes: >"The Mote in God's Eye" by Niven/Pournell also depends heavily on a >sentinent computer. It does? I sure don't remember one. I remember some very powerful shipboard computers and some neat handheld personal terminals, but nothing about a sentient computer. Can you give some details? ------------------------------ Date: 14 Nov 86 21:32:53 GMT From: csun!aeusesef@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Sean Eric Fagan) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels Another one I haven't seen mentioned is _Syzygy_, by Frederick Pohl. It fits in one of the two categories, but I can't say which without ruining the ending of the book (it's a surprise 8-)). Pretty frood book. Sean Fagan aeusesef@csun.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 15 Nov 86 11:51:47 GMT From: adt@ukc.ac.uk (A.D.Thomas) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels venerar@rpics.RPI.EDU (A. Rudy Vener) writes: >There was a novel called (I think) 'Oath of Fealty' about a Los >Angeles area arcology in which metal access of computer systems >played an integral role. I forgot the author (and am not 100 % >sure I got the title right) but since I remember it at all, it must >have been pretty good. (Assuming of course that my taste in SF is >good. Let us assume so for the sake of argument). The book was written by Larry Niven and features a computer called Millie. The computer is not sentient but certain members of the arcology management have brain implants allowing them to access data directly from the computer or even to 'talk' to others with implants via Millie. This form of communication was called 'sub-vocalisation'. Tony Thomas adt.ukc.ac.uk Computing Department, University of Kent, Canterbury, Kent. England. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Nov 86 08:46:21 GMT From: argus!ken@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Ng) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels rcb@rti-sel.UUCP (Random) writes: >Really people!!!!! How about an early novel about intelligent >computers > Colossus (spelling uncertain) > (I can't remember the second book but it had Colossus in title) > Colossus and the Crab It's "The Fall of Colossus" Kenneth Ng: Post office: NJIT - CCCC, Newark New Jersey 07102 uucp !ihnp4!allegra!bellcore!argus!ken !psuvax1!cmcl2!ciap!andromeda!argus!ken bitnet(prefered) ken@orion.bitnet ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Nov 86 0929-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #385 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 17 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 385 Today's Topics: Books - Beckett & Kahn & Kube-McDowell & Norwood & Steakley & Post Holocaust (2 msgs) & Messages from Aliens, Television - Doctor Who & Star Trek & Tripods ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Nov 86 03:03:26 GMT From: weemba@brahms (Matthew P Wiener) Subject: Strange points of view From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK> >> Wolfe has assumed a very difficult task in presenting a >> protagonist who is incapable of any action which requires >> long-range planning... >It is certainly true that this is difficult, and many writers of >less ability than Wolfe would fail to bring it off. Indeed, the >best accounts of alien or altered modes of being (I'm not quite >sure what term to use here) are usually found outside Science >Fiction. If you want truly strange "alien or altered" modes of being, try reading some of the novels of Samuel Beckett. _Watt_, _The Unnameable_, and _How It Is_ are practically unique regarding the point of view presented. Plot, if present, is completely irrelevant. I like to view Beckett as what should be called "philosophical fiction" (phi-fi?). _Watt_, for example, can be read as an answer to the question of what the world would be like if logical positivism were in fact correct. The result is astonishing. Very few writers can do this sort of stuff well. The late J L Borges was probably the most famous at this genre. S Lem, despite the fact that he is usually classified as sci-fi, is really phi-fi at heart. Matthew P Wiener UCB Math Dept Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!weemba ------------------------------ Date: 14 Nov 86 23:59:13 GMT From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Novels warrenm@mmintl.UUCP (Warren McAllister) writes: >WORLD ENOUGH AND TIME by James(?) Kahn >part of a trilogy, can't remember the other ones :-] The sequel to this is _Time's_Dark_Laughter_. To the best of my knowledge, there is no third in the series; it's hard to see how there could be. Quite good, although only peripherally a post-holocaust novel. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 16 Nov 86 01:35:14 GMT From: husc2!moews@rutgers.rutgers.edu (moews) Subject: Re: _Enigma_ (Spoiler?) From: Antonio Leal <abl@ohm.ECE.CMU.EDU> >... I'm the kind who has a subscription to "Analog" and doesn't >like SF used as a vehicle by technologically illiterate English >majors (but I do like Gene Wolfe). So, here are a few of my calls. >Use your own salt. > >Michael P. Kube-McDowell, "Emprise", "Enigma", (& third book still >to come): When I first started to read this, I almost moaned "Oh >no, not another post-holocaust, >technology-screwed-us-let's-get-pastoral story ...". Well, it >isn't. It is about the rebuilding that follows, under the pressure >of future physical contact with the aliens discovered early in the >first book. The politics are believable, and the story moves well. Speaking of technological illiteracy, I think there's a MAJOR technical blooper in _Enigma_. On p. 330, the author describes the propulsion method for an STL starship by saying that ice was reduced to hydrogen and oxygen, using solar heat near the sun and chemical catalysis further out, and that the hydrogen and oxygen were then burnt in a rocket engine to move the ship. What's wrong with this? (1) Catalysis by itself can't make an energetically unfavorable reaction like the dissociation of water proceed. Extra energy is needed; where it comes from is never mentioned in the book. (2) Even if we could magically dissociate water without using energy, this starship drive amounts to just a hydrogen-oxygen rocket, like the Space Shuttle, and this isn't very high-performance (to say the least). In _Enigma_, these starships is said to be launched in the Pleistocene; since the Pleistocene started in 1,000,000 B.P., and since _Enigma_ occurs in the near future, the transit time is <= 1,000,000 years. The remains of one of these starships are found at 7 Hercules. 7 Hercules has a parallax of 0.011 arc seconds, putting it ~300 light-years away; thus our starship must fly at >= 0.00033 c = 100 km/sec. The exhaust velocity of a hydrogen-oxygen rocket is about 5 km/sec; our ship's mass-ratio thus has to be exp(2*100/5) [the factor of 2 comes from the fact that we have to first acclerate then declerate], or exp(40) ~= 10^17; this is impractical to say the least. Did anyone else notice this? What did you think? This seems like a real major flaw (it brings the technical credibility of the book down to the level of Dr. Who :-) ) Why do authors have to make up stupid stardrives when you can get any number of working ones from _Journal_of_the_British_Interplanetary_Society_ or whatever? Why? David Moews moews@husc4.harvard.edu ...!harvard!husc4!moews ------------------------------ Date: 15 Nov 86 01:14:44 GMT From: ukecc!vnend@rutgers.rutgers.edu (D. W. James) Subject: Dying main characters (was: Re: EMERGENCE) trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes: >When was the last time you read a book in which the >narrator/protagonist/ main character died before the end? (that is, >assuming the book is not *about* the charater's death) I admit that >a few examples do exist, but they are rare enough to be ignorable. >In *this* sense...almost *every* book is predictable. The last one that comes to my mind is "Planet of Flowers" by Warren Norwood (the last book in the "Windhover Tapes" series)(At least the last one written to date.) If you havn't looked up this Ft. Worth writer then you definitely should. This series was better than I had hoped when I first picked it up, I expected space opera, but what I got was a well plotted character oriented story. Look it up sometime. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Nov 86 21:31:31 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: "Armor" by John Steakley > S.R-FREUNDLICH@KLA.WESLYN (Rob Freundlich) > This sounds an awful lot like _Starship Troopers_, by (I think) > Heinlein. Anyone who's read it have any comment? It is clear that Steakley was inviting comparison to ST. Too many details are identical, such as the armor, the military life, the terms for and nature of the enemy forces, the fact that Buenos Aires was nuked in each book, and so on. There were also striking contrasts. At a fundamental level, _Armor_ was about as similar to ST as _Rite_of_Passage_ was to _Podkayne_of_Mars_. And I suspect for similar reasons. That is, I would guess that Steakly and Panshin wanted to tell the same story as ST and PoM (respectively), but wanted to convey a completely different perspective. Personally, I preferred RoP to PoM by quite a lot, but ST to A by a narrow margin. But then I suspect that my tastes are peculiar. In neither case, however, would I have wanted to miss the re-telling. Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 12 Nov 86 16:55:41 GMT From: ulowell!page@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bob Page) Subject: Re: Plan 7 / Level 7 abl@ohm.ECE.CMU.EDU writes: > Impressive story (or my memory of earlier reads is better), and >very depressing, especially for the kid I was. Worthy of a reprint >too. I think it was one of the first of the nuclear horror stories, because many people say ``I read it a long time ago -- VERY horrifying'' and such. A couple of years ago I had our library track down the book, and got to read it. The story IS good (and short) although cliched in parts. The writing and characterization is stiff, but that may be because it was translated, I don't know. If anyone were interested in hunting for it now, I'd say we're jaded and desensitized enough about nuclear war that this book would not make much of an impact. The ideas will not be new by now, although they may have been when the book was written. Instead, I recommend Brin's latest book, _The Postman_. Bob Page, U of Lowell CS Dept Lowell MA 01854 USA UUCP: wanginst!ulowell!page VOX: +1 617 452 5000 x2976 ------------------------------ Date: 14 Nov 86 00:09:50 GMT From: mmintl!warrenm@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Warren McAllister) Subject: Post-Holocaust Novels In connection with my recent posting re. the above, I would like to thank Tovah Hollander for her Email suggesting some interesting reading : EARTH ABIDES by George R. Stewart ON THE BEACH by Nevil Shute ALAS, BABYLON by Pat Frank EMERGENCE by David(?) Palmer DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS by John Wyndham A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ by Walter Miller THE WILD SHORE by Kim Stanley Robinson RE-BIRTH or THE CHRYSALIDS by John Wyndham FISKADORO by ?? (published in '85 or '86) If I may add some of my own favourites : THE AMTRAK WARS by Patrick Tilley - anyone know if #3 is out yet ? HEIRO'S JOURNEY by Sterling Lanier THE DEATH OF GRASS THE WORLD IN WINTER WRINKLE IN THE SKIN all by John Christopher (I think) LUCIFER'S HAMMER by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle and one of the best; WORLD ENOUGH AND TIME by James(?) Kahn part of a trilogy, can't remember the other ones :-] Keep those titles a comin' ! Warren McAllister ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 86 03:52:04 est From: Antonio Leal <abl@ohm.ECE.CMU.EDU> Subject: Message-from-aliens books One of the attractions of this digest, for me, is calling attention to books I might otherwise pass up, given the terrible state of backcover blurb writing. Of course there are the late calls (now I can't find Steakley's "Armor", dammit) and the bad calls (like the P.Anthony I bought in spite of my misgivings). I'm the kind who has a subscription to "Analog" and doesn't like SF used as a vehicle by technologically illiterate English majors (but I do like Gene Wolfe). So, here are a few of my calls. Use your own salt. Michael P. Kube-McDowell, "Emprise", "Enigma", (& third book still to come): When I first started to read this, I almost moaned "Oh no, not another post-holocaust, technology-screwed-us-let's-get-pastoral story ...". Well, it isn't. It is about the rebuilding that follows, under the pressure of future physical contact with the aliens discovered early in the first book. The politics are believable, and the story moves well. Donald Moffit, "The Genesis Quest". His earlier book, "The Jupiter Theft", featured humans living among (captured by) tri-symmetrical aliens who were busy using Jupiter for a stepping stone to the next star. This one features humans recreated from information alone, living among the penta-symmetrical aliens of a nearby (37 Meg-light-years ...) galaxy. The story is partly related to a Stalinist style splinter group that wants human supremacy. The politics are a little stiff (given that humans were born into an alien culture, they are too close to current Earth style), and some scientific miracles are a bit too sudden. But it is still a very readable story. Oh, yes, this is "To be continued" in the next book, "coming out next month", which you only find out in the last page. Bad style, DelRey. Jack McDevitt "The Hercules Text". This is the latest Ace special, and Terry Carr is doing a fair job. It is about the reception of an alien signal, in two phases: an attention-getter (pulsar modulation), and the message itself, weeks later. The point of the story is more about "What do we do with this" than the traditional "How do we decode this". As a matter of fact, the decoding of the message is pitifully glossed over, with some mumbling about self generating programs. The real story is good enough, though, with the scientists in the NASA center suffering from peer-pressure due to the hushing-up, late and piecemeal disclosures forced on them by the government. Interestingly, the main character is an administrator, instead of a scientist. Worth your $3.50. You may have noticed all these stories are derived from the message-from-aliens concept, but have very different twists. Well, that's why we read SF instead of westerns or mysteries (or "Literature", ack-pfst), isn't it ? Have fun. Tony abl@ohm.ece.cmu.edu E.C.E. Dept, Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA 15213 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 86 21:17 EST From: TMPLee@DOCKMASTER.ARPA Subject: Query about Ian Marter report My son, who is president of one of the Minneapolis/St. Paul Dr. Who fan clubs, just received a report from "usually reliable sources" that Ian Marter, who played Harry Sullivan in the Baker episodes and who has done some of the novelizations, died on October 29th. Can anyone, especially in the UK, who reads this Digest confirm that and supply more details? Please reply directly since I no longer receive the SFL-Digest and it is not posted on this system. (I tried ftp'ing the most current volume from Rutgers but couldn't seem to get it all.) ------------------------------ Date: 5 Nov 86 22:09:01 GMT From: MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET Subject: Moral Themes in Star Trek milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU says: >PS. I must confess that I am highly sceptical of the idea of a >Star Trek episode having a moral, for the simple reason that the >dramatic quality was never high enough to give a real presentation >of a problem. To my mind, Star Trek is for fun. It isn't deep >enough, doesn't present enough evidence, doesn't work through the >issues enough to be considered a presentor of moral values. I suggest you take a look at the following Star Trek episodes: Where No Man Has Gone Before Balance of Terror Miri The Conscience of the King Arena The Return of the Archons A Taste of Armageddon The Devil in the Dark Errand of Mercy Operation: Annihilate! The Doomsday Machine Mirror, Mirror Bread and Circuses Journey to Babel A Private Little War The Gamesters of Triskelion Obsession Return to Tomorrow Patterns of Force The Ultimate Computer Assignment: Earth Spectre of the Gun Is There in Truth No Beauty? For the World is Hollow, and I Have Touched the Sky The Day of the Dove Plato's Stepchildren Let That Be Your Last Battlefield The Cloudminders ...all of which had very obvious moral/ethical themes. James D. Maloy The Pennsylvania State University Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL UUCP : {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq ------------------------------ Date: 10 Nov 86 16:44:07 GMT From: ukecc!grant@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Miles) Subject: T.V. series and books about The Tripods by J. Christoper Has anyone seen a series on PBS called "The Tripods"? It is made by England and Australia, and is a television adaptation of J. Christoper's trilogy about the tripods. The series is excellent, i think, but I have yet to see all of the story on TV. Each "season" is 13 episodes, and there are 3 seasons (the whole story is chopped into 3 pieces). I do not know if the BBC (British Broadcasting Corp) has made the 3 chunk of the story. I have seen the first 2 chunks, and am eagerly awaiting the third. Perhaps at this point a little explanation of the basic story would be in order. The tripods are giant 3 legged machines that walk the lands of the world keeping order. The story is set when society has crumbled and man has lost all forms of technology. (Sort of middle ages..horses, little villages.. markets). When a human reaches adulthood, he is taken inside a tripod, where a metal cap is fitted into the skin close to the skull. This "cap" gives the tripods control over their minds. A man with a cap is loyal to the tripods, he thinks no evil thoughts of destroying the tripods. The story evolves around 2 boys who afraid of being capped, and one day meet a strange man. The man tells of a place (Switzerland in our modern world), where a group of free men live (uncapped), and who wage war against the tripods and their grip on the world. The boys decide to go on a long voyage across europe to join these band of rebels. That's the story..If anyone has any views/questions /comments/info on the series please post here..Thanx. Miles ....ihnp4!cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!grant ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Nov 86 0955-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #386 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 17 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 386 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Time Travel (8 msgs) & Anachronisms & Buckaroo Banzai & Weapons Policies & Star Trek Stamp & Drinks in SF Stories (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Nov 86 20:02:06 GMT From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: time travel From: ucdavis!clover!hildum@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Hildum) >Something that most people seem not to have considered in their >"person dropped back in time" remarks. What about personal jewelry? >While this probably wouldn't last long, it might be enough to get >you meals for the first few days. Comments? I'd guess you lose your jewelry the first time you tried to pawn some off, unless you looked as if you could keep it. ....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: 11 Nov 86 03:32:42 GMT From: amdcad!csanders@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Craig S. Anderson) Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >>I think the thing most people would miss most would be the lack of >>modern medical and dental care. It would be a shame to die of >>appendicitis or pneumonia (add penicillin to the invention list) >>or other curable problems. > >It is clear that as generations pass, diseases tend to become less >virulent. There are two obvious mechanisms for this: people evolve >to become more resistant to the disease, and the disease evolves to >become less harmful. The main reasons why some major diseases (like smallpox, plague) aren't seen anymore in the West are better sanitation, clean drinking water, vaccines to prevent people from getting sick, and drugs to cure those who are afflicted and prevent them from spreading the disease. >(Being deadly is a distinct disadvantage for a disease -- better if >it can live in its host without killing it.) It is not clear just >what the balance is between these two mechanisms. Actually, most 'successful' diseases caused by bacteria, viruses and the like survive by infecting other organisms (vectors) which then transmit the disease to a human. As long as harmful organisms are able to successfully spread, it matters little whether or not the host eventually dies, as long as s/he has spread it to others. I suspect that a time traveller would be more susceptible to disease than a person who lives in that time period, but given the amount of people who died from the diseases anyway I don't think the risk is that much greater. Craig Anderson Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. (408) 749-3007 UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra,intelca}!amdcad!csanders ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 86 11:14:26 cst From: Brett Slocum <hi-csc!slocum@umn-cs> Subject: Re: Time travel Probably the two most readily marketable skills that the average twentieth century person has that most didn't have in the 1st thru 18th century are literacy and mathematical skills. Especially the math. Doing math in your head was almost unheard of. You might start as a bookkeeper for a small business, and move your way up as you gain reputation, and perhaps get the attention of a lord (they were terrible at finance). There is always tax cheating, too. Who knows, maybe you could be Royal Treasurer. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Nov 86 01:42:52 GMT From: nikhefk!keeshu@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kees Huyser) Subject: Re: time travel From: ucdavis!clover!hildum@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Hildum) >Something that most people seem not to have considered in their >"person dropped back in time" remarks. What about personal jewelry? >While this probably wouldn't last long, it might be enough to get >you meals for the first few days. Comments? It might be enough to get your throat cut in the fist few days.... As it happens people in earlier civilisations were not 'quite' the nice people we know now who walk in dark parks and streets. Try walking in the Vondelpark (Amsterdam, the Netherlands) at 02:00 AM any night, and I promise you you'll have more than your share of trouble. If you insist on taking jewelry with you, I suggest you also take a gun or sword with you to make sure the personal jewelry stays YOUR personal jewelry. Kees Huyser National Institute for Nuclear and High Energy Physics PO Box 4395; 1009 AJ; Amsterdam The Netherlands UUCP : keeshu@nikhefk.UUCP {[wherever]!seismo}!mcvax!keeshu@nikhefk.UUCP BITNET: U00212@HASARA5.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 11 Nov 86 13:50:55 GMT From: clunker!mary@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mary Shurtleff) Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query >I think the thing most people would miss most would be the lack of >modern medical and dental care. You could include in that list the lack of visual care. If you're one of the many people who use some sort of corrective lenses, you'd be in deep trouble if you were marooned in a time which didn't have the technology to maintain your lenses. For example, what if you got stuck in the Middle Ages without the sterilizer for your soft contact lenses? If you had a pair of glasses as a backup and just happened to have them with you, you'd be a little better off, but you would still run the risk of having the glasses break with no means of replacing them. You could, of course, try to reinvent the technology, but it would be tough.... Mary Shurtleff ....decvax!bunker!clunker!mary ....ittatc!bunker!clunker!mary ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 86 23:34 CST From: RSaunders@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: misc: time travel I wonder to what degree I would really be interested in getting rich in the 17th century. With a lot of money I would be forced to live the lifestyle of a 17th century noble. Too many of them got killed by their associates, in fact I suspect this is the only really reasonable way to get rich. Admittedly my 20th century schooling might make me an extremely good assassin, making nitro-glycerin or better gun-cotton, I wouldn't enjoy it. I would prefer to be cast in the role of a traveling entertainer. Here you can amaze people with the tricks you do, rather than try to change their lives. Combine my algorithmic skills with a little high-school Skinnerism and teach a chicken to win at tic-tac-toe. Bet on the chicken until I get run out of town. Better yet build a machine to do it, remember Babbage's use of cards to control weaving machines. Dauble in easy medicine, wine on cuts speeds healing. Take credit for fever's running their course. Don't get into situations where you have to cure the king of cancer. Don't try to get into court, the life is boring and you get killed when power changes hands. If you can't live without being the king's friend, sell yourself as a cryptographer, any spy novel will teach you enough to use your statistic's skills to crack any substitution codes of the era. Make the code machine described in the book and sell it to both sides. Other inventions to make: clothes washing machine (the wringer kind), typewriter (and please don't use QWERTY), flush toilet (was mentioned before), and shock-absorber for carriages (good low-precision part). Randy Saunders ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 86 18:08:58 GMT From: dciem!msb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mark Brader) Subject: Re: making it rich 'back in time' Ben Bishop (T.SAILOR%DEEP-THOUGHT@EDDIE.MIT.EDU) writes: > One extremely simple way to get rich in the recent (more than 1 or > 2 hundred years ago, less than thousand) past is aluminum. > > Hide yourself somewhere, build a generator, find bauxite (they > knew what it was) and PRESTO more aluminum than an entire country. > Getting to the point of having that generator might be tough ... Not only that, but you're missing two steps. First, bauxite refers to either Al(OH)3 or AlOOH; what you electrolyze to get aluminum is alumina, Al2O3. (I must admit to not knowing what will happen if you try to electrolyze bauxite; but both the inventors of the process [Hall and Heroult, independently] and modern plants use alumina.) The way alumina is prepared these days is a process invented in 1888 by Bayer: "The bauxite first is reacted with hot caustic which dissolves the Al2O3 . xH2O to form sodium aluminate. The solution is filtered hot, then cooled and agitated with the addition of a small quantity of aluminum hydrate to enhance the precipitation of the crystalline hydrate. After filtration, the cake is kiln-dried at 1100 C to remove H2O and yield Al2O3." [ Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia, 6th ed.] Second, before you can electrolyze the alumina, you have to dissolve it in cryolite (AlF3 . 3NaF), the solvent medium for the electrolysis. (You also have to heat it to 960 C.) Nowadays synthetic cryolite is used, but you'd have to find the natural stuff... and [according to Asimov's New Guide to Science] the principal deposits are in Greenland... In another message, Randy Saunders (RSaunders.TCSC@HI-MULTICS.ARPA) referred to Babbage's punch card loom. Of course, this should be Jacquard. Marf Brader utzoo!dciem!msb ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 86 20:55:33 GMT From: ncoast!wb8foz@rutgers.rutgers.edu (David Lesher) Subject: Re: Time-traveling musician ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes: >he or she could invent his instrument...in fact, maybe Stradivarius >was a modern time traveller who had studied how to make his violins >like Stradivarius did! .......etc..... Only problem is, NOVA did a excellent show about 2 years ago about the fact we still do not know what make a violin sound the way it does, or why Stradivarius could make such good ones. Needless to say, those who own one are not keen on dissecting it to try to find out why is is so superior. decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!wb8foz ncoast!wb8foz@case.csnet ncoast!wb8foz%case.csnet@csnet-relay.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 86 12:22:09 est From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Retroactive Anachronisms More enjoyable than out-and-out scientific bloopers are predictions so timid and conservative (in retrospect) that they now look like bloopers. I think this ground was covered last year (before I started reading this bboard). Still, here are my two favorites. The runner-up is Marion Zimmer Bradley's "The Brass Dragon" in which the alien pulls out a slide rule and explains: The Galactic slide rule is the same, in principle, as the Terrestrial one -- though more sophisticated, of course -- so Galactics use Earth slide rules when visiting, so as not to attract attention. The best is Edmond Hamilton's "The Star Kings", wherein, on the bridge of a space-battleship of 200,000 AD we see the effects of two hundred millenia of technological progress: the vacuum tubes are twenty feet long! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 86 12:23:18 cst From: Brett Slocum <hi-csc!slocum@umn-cs> Subject: Banzai Institute address Cc: yduJ@sri-kl.arpa Yes, The Banzai Institute really does exist, and its FREE! So, I guess it really doesn't fit your purpose of dumping extra cash. Join anyway. I think they have a new address, but I don't have my latest set of literature wiith me (at work). So this is the old address. The Banzai Institute c/o 20th Century Fox P.O. Box 900 Beverly Hills, CA 90213 Brett Slocum ARPA: hi-csc!slocum@UMN-CS.ARPA UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 86 12:33 EDT From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire Subject: twisted motives.. One must wonder at times, what the motivation for carrying weapons to conventions is anyway. As a staffer at Boskones for the past few years, I have on more than one occasion had to ask a bearer of wepaons to kindly make it go away. Some of them got very indignant and on more than one occasion I had to sit through the usual platitudes about how stupid weapons policies are and how their costume just wasn't right without that 3 foot piece of metal at their side. Well, they seem so quick to anger, that they provide a wonderful example of why weapons policies exist in the first place. Dan Parmenter Hampshire College ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 86 12:48:08 EST From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@prophet.bbn.com> Subject: Attempts to get ST commemorative stamp From the Washington Talk page of the New York Times for Thursday, 11/13/86 STAMPS AND 'STAR TREK' (deleted) [Reproduced without permission.] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 86 20:13:47 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Re: Drinks in SF stories Well, there's Romulan Ale, Saurian Brandy, Tranya(?), and "it's green" from Star Trek. Anybody remember the ones I missed, besides that Argelian multi-layered drink from "Wolf in the Fold?" ------------------------------ Date: 12 Nov 86 10:57:42 PST (Wednesday) Subject: Re: Drinks mentioned in SF stories From: Josh Susser <Susser.pasa@Xerox.COM> I just saw the Star Trek episode last night with the M-5 super-autopilot. About a half hour into it, Bones brings Kirk a "prescription" in a wine glass, and claims to make the best "Finnagle's Folly" in half the galaxy. (I may be mistaken, I didn't it hear too well.) Josh ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 86 07:14:29 GMT From: griffith@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Cutter John) Subject: Re: Drinks in SF stories ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes: >Well, there's Romulan Ale, Saurian Brandy, Tranya(?), and "it's >green" from Star Trek. Anybody remember the ones I missed, besides >that Argelian multi-layered drink from "Wolf in the Fold?" Well, there's a Finnagle's Folly from The Ultimate Computer and McCoy's brain-curing potion from The Tholian Web that mixes well with Scotch... Jim Griffith griffith@cory.Berkeley.EDU ...!ucbvac!cory!griffith ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Nov 86 0829-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #387 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 19 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 387 Today's Topics: Books - Adams (6 msgs), Miscellaneous - Good vs Possible (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Nov 86 00:19:06 GMT From: mmm!cipher@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Andre Guirard) Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy P5S@PSUVMB.BITNET writes: >> In the first book, the Earth gets destroyed right off the bat. >> In the fourth book, it's back. Did Adams ever explain this >> properly? > >... I thought that the mice (or somebody) merely recommisioned >it's creation and the program it was supposed to run was simply >restarted the split second after the other one ended. One wonders where the backup copy of the "machine state" was kept. How many miles of magnetic tape would it take? Is there a massive socket somewhere in Antarctica to plug the cable into? Seriously, anyone who looks for sense and consistency in the HHG has, I think, missed the point. Andre Guirard ihnp4!mmm!cipher ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 86 21:52:09 GMT From: c160-dq@zooey.Berkeley.EDU (Kathy Li) Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy I'm not sure if I remember this properly, but wasn't there a line in the radio program (episode 2?) where Arthur was talking about how this beautiful, wonderful girl "everything he'd been saving himself up for" had been grabbed away by this dope... Arthur: He said, "Hey, doll, is this guy boring you? Come and talk to me. I'm from another planet." Ford: Zaphod! Arthur: Yes. He only had the one head and the two arms and he called himself Phil..*BUT*... So, I guess Zaphod wasn't born with the extra head. Either that or it's detachable. Kathy Li ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 86 07:00:45 GMT From: drp@lll-lcc.aRpA (David Preston) Subject: Hitchhikers Guide Radio Transcript The transcript of the radio series is out in book form. I saw it in a local B.Daltons so it is probably in B.Daltons everywhere. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 86 06:08:53 PST (Tuesday) Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy From: Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM > Hitchhiker originally came out in Britain as a radio series >which aired here in the U.S. for a time on National Public Radio. I >heard most of it, and it was easily as funny as the books. It is >also out on record, but I don't know if the albums are true to the >original script. The books came next, and of course the inevitable >T.V. series. At any rate, (say, 3.2 MPH :-) ), I have heard that >he was basically a household word in the U.K. long before anyone in >the U.S. heard of him. How credible that is I don't know. The first radio series started in '79 (I think. Give or take a year). There was a stage show in about '82. The recordings of the radio shows were released some time around then. The TV shows started in about '83. The 4th book in the trilogy (sic) came out last year. The towel came out .... so yes, HHG and DG have had a cult following for about 6 or 7 years, and have been household names for 3 or 4 years. I have been an HHG freak since hearing the very first show - I think I have seen, heard or read every edition of every series/book/play etc. Be warned - the plots are NOT the same in the plays/books/TV shows. Similar yes, but with lots of subtle differences. This discussion could get very confused indeed! For what it's worth, I rate the radio series as the best. [No spoiler warnings, 'cos discussions like this only mean anything if you've already seen/heard/read it] As far as I can tell, the mice commissioned the Magratheans to recreate Earth MkII from the original plans. (Magrathea was 'woken up' to do this as a special job - they had mothballed themselves on an index-linked basis "Until the galaxy is once again rich enough to afford our services"). Slartibartfast explains all this (how MkI was destroyed by the Vogons shortly before completion of the Great Hack (sorry, Program), "I do the fjords, you know, the crinkly bits round the edges. I think they give such a baroque feel to a continent" etc). Can anyone tell me where the shoe-event horizon fits in to the cosmic scale of things (I know the theory, but not its relevance)? I always get confused about the giant statue of Arthur and Tea Cup, the birds who can't say f**t etc. And where does the phrase "Dent, as in the Late Dent Arthur Dent" come from? ("It's a kind of threat. I don't use them much myself, but I'm told they can be very effective"). Basically, if you haven't read the books - DO SO. It's a way of life. (With leather?) Hugh ARPA: Hippo.SBDERX@Xerox.COM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 86 12:59:20 EST From: drukman%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Jonathan S. Drukman) Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide I just was flipping through the digests and read a letter that claimed that Arthur's mysterious ability to READ other languages as well as understand them was an inconsistency. Well, that's right and it's wrong. In the RADIO show, Arthur can read the inscriptions on the Golgafrincham Sarcophagi - he and Ford are reeling off professions and Arthur exclaims "Good god, this one's a dead hairdresser!" So, that's an inconsistency. In the BOOK (2nd one), in the same scene, Arthur takes a look at the plaque on the sarcophagus and is unable to read it because it looks like "the tracks of a spider that's had one too many to drink of whatever it is that spiders drink on a night out". Ford of course instantly recognizes it as an early form of Galactic Eezeereed, and the hairdresser line is spoken by him. Incidentally, in the Hitchhiker's Trilogy (Omnibus Edition), there's a great intro by Doug Adams explaining the order of events and origin of the series, etc. He says that a lot of line switching was done simply to save rewriting the dialogue. For my money, the TV show sucked because Ford was horrible and Trillian was totally unbelievable - played as a dizzy blonde when it's been clearly stated in the books that she's dark (vaguely Arabic looking) and devastatingly intelligent - all totally lost on Sandra Dickinson's interpretation of the character. The Radio Show is excellent because they didn't have to suffer through cheap BBC visual effects and could rely on the terrific voice characterizations provided by the cast. Also, there is a lot of material in the radio shows that isn't found in ANY of the books. One final note: the story that Arthur tells Fenchurch in _So Long..._ about the biscuits (he's eating someone else's...) was told to me (and several hundred others) at an MIT lecture a few years back by Adams himself - BEFORE the book was written. It really happened to him in real life! jon drukman BITNET: drukman@umass ARPANET: rms.g.jon%oz@mit-mc ------------------------------ Date: 16 Nov 86 14:22:05 GMT From: ellis@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk (Sean Ellis) Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy > In the first book, the Earth gets destroyed right off the bat. In > the fourth, it's back. Did Adams ever explain this properly? Yes, he did. In the fourth book there is a whole ( albeit short ) chapter devoted to this. It is a little obscure, but runs along the lines of: The dolphins, in their flight from the demolition of the Earth, discovered an alternate Earth in the possibilities of enfolded time, and joined it to the worldline of the previous Earth. Their joining points being Arthur, Fenchurch and Wonko, which is why they were presented with the glass fishbowls. "This bowl was brought to you by the Society to Save the Humans" > Evidently Zaphod was born with two arms, not three. But is his > second head natural? How is it that he had only one head when > Arthur first met him (at the party)? Both of Zaphod's heads are natural. The apparent lack of 2nd head at the party is explained in the computer game. It was a fancy dress party and Zaphod (Phil) went as a pirate. His parrot, however, was kept on his shoulder in a cage, conveniently covered with a cloth. The only really strange thing is that the parrot appears to snore.... > And how many flat-out inconsistencies are there in the series? > Arthur (with fish in ear) should be able to understand any spoken > language, but he shouldn't be able to read them -- I think this > causes several problems. OK, so there are a couple of times where this could cause problems, but these can be solved with a little thought. The only two cases that spring to mind are when, on first entry to the Heart of Gold, Arthur presses the inviting red button and the sign lights up saying "Please do not press this button again", and also in the Golgafrincham Ark Fleet, Ship B, Hold 7, when Arthur reads a plaque announcing that the occupant of the coffin is a hairdresser. The first can be accounted for by Eddie ( with Trillian's help), reprogramming the signs to read in English, since Ford and Arthur had been rescued from the destruction of the Earth, and Trillian had already spoken with them. The second case is easily solved when you think who the Golgafrinchams actually were... Arthur's ancestors. Is it really too implausible to suggest that some of them, at least, spoke English ??? ( I know it's 2Myears in the past but this is fiction, right...) > Replies of the form "Don't take it so seriously" cheerfully > ignored. Don't take it so seriously ? How can one not take the most successful book EVER to have come out of the great publishing corporations of Ursa Minor seriously. > Is it true that _Hitchhiker_ is being movied? I'm still waiting > for a chance to see the TV segments. (Saw most of the first one, > then had to leave town.) Sadly, the planned film is no more ( sympathetic "Aaaah" echoes around net ) The Great Man Himself ( D.Adams, who else ) had a very heated argument with the producers ( who wanted to do it in a different style ) and the project has now been shelved indefinitely. I hope he manages to find another backer and produce it himself.. if would have been GREAT ! I hope this clears up these points for you... Happy HitcHiking... Sean Ellis Reading University ENGLAND ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 86 02:27:25 GMT From: weemba@brahms (Matthew P Wiener) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? dave@viper.UUCP (David Messer) writes: >SF need not be proveably possible, but it should not be IMpossible. If we're going to get to some agreement about what's IMpossible, now and for all time, let's try some mathematical fiction for examples. Looking through _Fantasia Mathematica_, I find several stories that are literally IMpossible. Martin Gardner's two contributions, "No-Sided Professor" and "The Island of Five Colors" suffer not from logical gaps but from weak writing. In the hands of a Lem or a Borges, these would have been profound masterpieces. I like fiction to stimulate my mind. If that requires an absolute paradox to get the proper point across, then so be it. Corny as it was, I really liked Asimov's _The End of Eternity_, as it was the first time travel paradox story that I ever read. Asimov did a good job of making it pseudo-plausible, enough so that I could smoothly suspend disbelief and get on with the story. (Side note to Keith Lynch--it is irrelevant to my point if time travel per se is IMpossible or not. What matters is what *I* the reader believed when I read it.) On the other other hand, I doubled up in laughter instantly when a friend told me about Niven's _Ringworld_. It's hard to suspend disbelief when a writer makes such a major glaring error as the basic setting of his book. And I will never stop smirking at the surfbunny morons that pass for genius mathematicians in Forward's _The Flight of the Dragonfly_. Why do you think people love Tolkein so much? It's because it's written so *well*, it's alive, the characters and tension and drama are there. The fact that a great ring of power is impossible is irrelevant--it's a given of the Tolkein universe. I get the impression--do flame me if I'm wrong--that a lot of people like the hard sci-fi because they can't hack the hard science. Sort of like a science groupie. Personally I still find Misner, Thorne & Wheeler a lot more exciting than any sci-fi story about black holes, even though it's more than a decade out of date. It's like all those people who keep trying to figure out which century Star Trek is in. If you want to work it out, sure, but I couldn't care. It has no relevance to my enjoyment of the series. Or even worse, the person who was trying to trap Douglas Adams' _Hitchhiker_ trilogy in a contradiction. Uh huh, sure. Matthew P Wiener UCB Math Dept Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!weemba ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 86 22:36:04 GMT From: rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? dave@viper.UUCP (David Messer) writes: >SF need not be proveably possible, but it should not be IMpossible. Then you have to throw out a lot of excellent SF, including Stanislaw Lem's "Cyberiad" and much other humorous SF written over the years by authors who didn't give a hoot whether their conceits were possible or not. There are three possibilities I can think of: (1) Lem's "Cyberiad" is NOT SF, (2) Lem's "Cyberiad" is BAD SF, (3) your definition is incorrect. In my book, Lem's work is good SF. Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 86 12:57:24 GMT From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? Gene Ward Smith writes: > Did "Rendezvous with Rama" really have reactionless drive? I >didn't recall this, but it does illustrate a related point, which >is that very little science fiction is really plausible; most of it >has some science- rubbish in it. Is the reactionless drive in >"Rama" really that important? I don't think it makes this "bad" >sf, but then I don't expect the science in sf to make any sense. "Rama" is really a strange example to bring up, seeing as how there really isn't a plot in the normal sense (machina ex deus ? :-). Yes, as the ship accelerates away one of the characters says "Well, there goes Newton's Third Law." Yet few people have a problem with this-- and even the characters in the book are amazed by this rewriting of physics. I therefore think that the magic words are "appropriate conformity to physics". In this case, there's no problem, since the Ramans can presumably have any level of technology necessary. As the physics violations become more difficult to take straight, we enter the gray area where SF merges into the rest of fantasy; some of LeGuin's books (notably _Lathe of Heaven_) live in this grey area. > The whole point of getting the science right in sf is to keep >the reader from laughing too hard. If you get to the point where >you think "this almost makes sense" (e.g., "The Black Cloud") that >is all that can be asked. This is exactly the right approach. Anything that isn't blatantly ridiculous is, I think, appropriate by definition. Breaking the rules to explore them is by definition valid SF. In this respect I find that the booksellers are onto something when they put the fantasy and SF together. The kind of reality violations in both are really the same thing in two different forms. C. Wingate ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Nov 86 0854-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #388 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 19 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 388 Today's Topics: Books - Adams (3 msgs) & Card & Carey & Duane & Hubbard & Niven & Post Holocaust Novels (2 msgs) & Sentient Computers (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 19 Nov 86 02:52:59 GMT From: 6080626@PUCC.BITNET (Adam Barr) Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy bph_cwjb@jhunix.UUCP (William J. Bogstad) writes: > I have read 2 or 3 of the books in the Hitchhiker's Guide series >and I really can't understand why people get excited about them. >Sure, some of the ideas are cute, but that really isn't enough for >me to give something a rave review. There are many other books I >would reccomend first. Yes, let's not go overboard. The hitchhiker's books have some great lines, but like most cult things are not very good when analyzed critically. Like, "Buckaroo Banzai" is really not a very good movie. This of course does not stop me from wanting to see it over and over. Realistically, the books are very stupid. You can tell that they are very stupid because it is impossible to find anything good about them when you are trying to explain to a friend what is so great about them. Also, there is a VERY marked quality decrease in the third book, which is what usually happens when you are trying to duplicate weirdness. Sure, I've read the original a few times, and the next two as well, but they are not great literature. I feel no great pressing need to read "So long...", since there is no particular plot to get caught up on. I don't think the books are a good way to get someone interested in science fiction. Still, they do have their place. Adam Barr Princeton University BITNET: 6080626@PUCC UUCP:...allegra!psuvax1!PUCC.BITNET!6080626 ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 86 05:05:20 GMT From: jhunix!bph_cwjb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (William J. Bogstad) Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy P5S@PSUVMB.BITNET writes: >>How popular is Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? >>What does everyone who knows about it, think about it? > >Doug! He's my man! ... > My opinion? The Hitchhiker series is are some of the best books >I have ever read. Go read them, you won't regret it. Now for a different opinion... :-) I have read 2 or 3 of the books in the Hitchhiker's Guide series and I really can't understand why people get excited about them. Sure, some of the ideas are cute, but that really isn't enough for me to give something a rave review. There are many other books I would recommend first. Bill Bogstad P.S. Please no flames about my diminshed mental capacities. Just accept the fact that I have a character flaw which renders me unable to appreciate this great literature. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 86 13:50:00 EST From: nutto%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Andy Steinberg) Subject: inexial discontinuity As for when Zaphod got his third arm and second head the third arm is explained early in the first book of the trilogy. When Zaphod was traveling to the island in the hover-bubble it was said "and his third arm which he had had recently fitted under his second arm" so he did not get the third arm until after his visit to Earth. As for the second head in the first chapter of the second book Zaphod had to contact his grandfather for help, his grandfather was described as having two heads. So I guess the explanation of the birdcage on his shoulder is a good one. And as we all know, there's nothing worse than having one drunk head. Another interesting note is that Slartibartfast said he helped create Norway on Earth 10 million years ago on Magrathea. Now the Magratheans were in hibernation for 5 millions years. Does this mean that a Slartibartfast's lifespan is over five millions years long? A last note, at the end of the third book the prisoner (I can't remember his name) told Arthur where to find the Ultimate Question. But in the fourth book they suddenly started calling it God's final message to his creation. Any ideas why the sudden switch? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 86 12:06:20 EST From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) To: larrabee@decwrl.dec.com Subject: Card I've never asked Card whether he considers himself a practicing Mormon, but I've been to one of his "secular humanist revivals" and question whether he still calls himself a practicing Christian of any stripe ("When I say, 'Do you BELIEVE?', I want you to answer 'In what?'"). If you're at a con where he's doing one of these revivals, \\go//---they're very entertaining. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 86 12:18:31 EDT From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (John White) Subject: Battlestations! and Diane Carey I just finished reading Diane Carey's "Battlestations!", and I had to rave about it before it slipped from my mind amid the flurry of other reading I have to do. Ms Carey has done a masterful job of presenting four interesting characters as the main focus of her two books (the first was "Dreadnought!", and Battlestations! is a direct sequel). Lt. Commander Piper is an engaging command candidate with problems - mainly her own uncertainty of her abilities, especially as her role model is the one and only Captain Kirk. She, too, has a special relationship with a Vulcan, named Sarda. But Sarda is not a carbon copy of Spock. He had his own problems, his own reasons for being an outcast. The two other "minor" characters Ms Carey has created are the doctor, Merete, and the ?, nick-named Scanner, a country-bumpkin mechanical/- sensor/communications whiz. The team of four have much to offer as alternatives to the over-worked "old-family", and, although Kirk, Spock, Scott, McCoy, etc. do feature in her stories, usually very importantly, I think Piper and Co make a refreshing change of pace. The book itself is also very good - fast paced, action packed, well plotted. Both it, and its predecessor, were absolutely enjoyable, and they both prove that Star Trek is not about Kirk, et al, but about people, and interaction. I only hope that The New Generation has the same fine characterizations and interactions that Ms Carey's books have. John L WHITE@DREXELVM ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 86 01:46:18 GMT From: unisoft!kalash@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Joe Kalash) Subject: Re: Diane Duane's next Wizard book >SO YOU WANT TO BE A WIZARD will be out soon in paperback. In fact, it is already out (with a fairly nice cover). Joe Kalash ucbvax!unisoft!kalash ucbvax!kalash kalash@berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1986 13:15 EST From: Dave Goldblatt <USERBH0U%CLVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> Subject: Re: L. Ron Hubbard I think L. Ron Hubbard died of a coronary, but I'm not positive. You can probably check in the second or third book for the date of his death -- I'm pretty sure it was in one of them. As for Dianetics, well, I'm sure they'll keep re-releasing it as long as it sells, even if the author's dead.. (nothing new in this--look at the number of editions of Lord of the Rings! :-) Anyhow, the remaining 5 books WILL be published (ugh). If for nothing else, it's because #5 is on the Times bestseller list.. (there was a rumor in one of the fanzines a while back that stated that the reason so many "Battlefield Earths" and "Dianetics" were sold was because all the Scientologists bought 'em.. :-) dg ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 86 20:52:57 GMT From: ukecc!vnend@rutgers.rutgers.edu (D. W. James) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? weemba@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Matthew P Wiener) writes: >On the other other hand, I doubled up in laughter instantly when a >friend told me about Niven's _Ringworld_. It's hard to suspend >disbelief when a writer makes such a major glaring error as the >basic setting of his book. Begging your pardon, but what was the "major glaring error" that made Ringworld so easy to disbelieve? I seem to have read a few years ago that someone had done some rather rigorous math and engineering studies on the idea and had found is sound, though with a few problems that Niven hadn't reallized (ie, the instability that was featured in _Ringworld Engineers_). Would you care to explain? ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 86 17:44:50 GMT From: valid!jao@rutgers.rutgers.edu (John Oswalt) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Novels Very similar to Earth Abides by George R. Stewart (but written almost 50 years earlier) is The Scarlet Plague, by Jack London. John Oswalt ..!hplabs!ridge!valid!jao ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 86 17:30:31 GMT From: ihuxv!rck@rutgers.rutgers.edu (R. C. Kukuk) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Novels Does anyone remember TRIUMPH by Philip Wylie? Ron Kukuk ------------------------------ Date: 15 Nov 86 05:16:13 GMT From: jhunix!ins_adgj@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Donald G Jackson) Subject: Re: Canonical sentient computer list Another author who deals with sentient computers is (of course) Heinlein. An interesting feature regarding the telepathic control aspect (as in Asimov's 4th foundation novel) is that Heinlein says in TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE something to the effect that a powerful, sentient computer detects "thoughts" or brain waves as easily as humans hear sounds; plus, given that computer's ability to 'focus' sound, even if it couldn't reply telepathically, it could whisper in your ear. And we mustn't forget Mike of THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS. Another thing: I think that Asimov's Caves of Steel series should also be included, since the robots included in those books are, though called positronic robots, also sentient computers. Donald G. Jackson The Johns Hopkins University ins_adgj@jhunix ------------------------------ Date: Mon 17 Nov 86 16:41:36-EST From: eric(wccs.e-simon%kla.weslyn@weslyan.bitnet) Subject: sentient computer How about the ship-controlling computer in C. Simak's "Shakespeare's Planet" which is actually the union of 3 formerly- human minds ? ejs ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 86 21:25:19 GMT From: 6103014@PUCC.BITNET (Harold Feld) Subject: Re: Human Computers From: DAVE%UWF.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU > In my growing up years, I was especially enamored of the >writings of R.A. Heinlein, who wrote a few of those books involving >sentient computers that you are asking about. The ones that come >to mind are: Number of the Beast, R.A.H. Time Enough For Love, R.A.H. The Cat Who Walks Through Walls, R.A.H. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 86 18:41:29 GMT From: ukecc!vnend@rutgers.rutgers.edu (D. W. James) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels adt@ukc.ukc.ac.uk (A.D.Thomas) writes: >venerar@rpics.RPI.EDU (A. Rudy Vener) writes: >>There was a novel called (I think) 'Oath of Fealty' about a Los >>Angeles area arcology in which metal access of computer systems > >The book was written by Larry Niven and features a computer called You left out the very important detail that the book was co-authored by Jerry Pournelle. This was either the 4th or 5th book that the pair produced. Does anybody know which it is off of the top of their head? ------------------------------ Date: 14 Nov 86 08:56:29 GMT From: lindsay@cheviot.newcastle.ac.uk (Lindsay F. Marshall) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels I recently read a book called "ariel" which concerned a sentient machine. I can't remember the name of the author, but it was truly one of the most awful loads of trash I have ever had the misfortune to come across. The author knew NOTHING about computers and the book is full of attempts to describe machine rooms and such like - all information seeming to be garnered from movies. The book is about some wonderful westerner (US I think) who is doggedly attempting to build an intelligent machine whilst the wily and evil Japanese are trying to steal his ideas (because their's don't work) and to destroy everything he has already built. The day is saved by the computer man's plucky son who has been hacking into the Intelligent Machine (Ariel) and has taught it (like a child of course, the adults hadn't thought of this) thus making it intelligent. The son has also been snarfing copies of everything he could lay his hands on and when it's all destroyed he has a copy...... Ring the bells and hang out the flags!! Basically this book is total crap and should be avoided at any cost. Lindsay F. Marshall Computing Lab. U of Newcastle upon Tyne Tyne & Wear UK ARPA : lindsay%cheviot.newcastle.ac.uk@ucl-cs.arpa JANET : lindsay@uk.ac.newcastle.cheviot UUCP : <UK>!ukc!cheviot!lindsay ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 86 05:43:01 GMT From: 6080626@PUCC.BITNET (Adam Barr) Subject: Re: Sentient Computers Well, who can forget Obie, the mini-Markovian brain from Jack Chalker's Well World series? (I guess anyone who hasn't read them yet). Actually those stories are fairly good, they have a great premise and the writing does nothing to interfere with it. They involve planets left over from an ancient civilization who have a living brain underneath the entire surface. Actually that's not really what they're about, but they do involve them. I do recommend the books. Adam Barr, Princeton University BITNET: 6080626@PUCC UUCP:...allegra!psuvax1!PUCC.BITNET!6080626 ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 86 21:22:12 GMT From: ttidca!hollombe@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jerry Hollombe) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels I'm surprised no one's mentioned one of the most famous sentient computers in SF. I refer to Muddlehead, the heart and soul of the good ship "Muddlin' Through" from Poul Anderson's stories of Nicholas Van Rijn, David Falkayne, and the Polisotechnic League. Jerry Hollombe Citicorp(+)TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 Santa Monica, CA 90405 {philabs,randvax,trwrb}!ttidca!hollombe ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 86 09:20:15 GMT From: ucdavis!ccdbryan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bryan McDonald) Subject: Re: sentinent computers If I remember right, there is a ship in IT that sees all the activity during the story that has a human brain or a copy on chips (or something like that). Anyone know for sure? Bryan McDonald Univ. of California @ Davis ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 86 15:30:45 est From: firth@sei.cmu.edu Subject: Computers Does anyone else remember one of the most plausible future computers in SF: the computerised house in Bradbury's There Will Come Soft Rains? ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 86 11:49:31 PST (Monday) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #381 From: "Jo_M._Anselm.henr801E"@Xerox.COM In the human access category, try Mindkiller, by Spider Robinson and Heart of the Comet, by Gregory Benford & David Brin. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 86 18:16:54 GMT From: ukecc!vnend@rutgers.rutgers.edu (D. W. James) Subject: Re: Sentient computers and mind-computer access From: "Jo_M._Anselm.henr801E"@Xerox.COM >In the human access category, try Mindkiller, by Spider Robinson Mindkiller, while it is a fine book, and the technology developed in it could lead to human access, does not have any examples of either sentient computers or direct human access of a computer. On the otherhand Roger Zelazny's "24 Views of Mt. Fuji, by Hokusai" is not a novel (it won the hugo in the novella cat.(I think it was novella, it could have been a novellette)) does directly deal with direct access. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Nov 86 0919-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #389 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 19 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 389 Today's Topics: Films - Star Wars (2 msgs) & Star Blazers, Television - Star Trek (2 msgs) & Tripods (4 msgs), Miscellaneous - Time Travel (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Nov 1986 1841-EST (Tuesday) From: burdvax!bmiller@seismo.CSS.GOV (Bruce J. Miller) Subject: Re: Star Wars (First Trilogy) From what I've seen, the First trilogy is supposed to cover the period from Obi Wan's youth through the Fall of the Republic. This info is based on what seems to be a fairly reasonable plot outline for Star Wars III that I found on (believe it or not) Compuserve about two years ago. (*** POTENTIAL SPOILER ***) The title is "Star Wars III: Fall of the Republic" and covers the time from the "birth" of Darth Vader through the birth of Luke and Leia and ends shortly thereafter. It also makes reference to "Star Wars I: The Adventures of Obi Wan Kenobi" and implies that Star Wars II will be about the Clone Wars. Of course, this could all be a deliberate leak, meant to mislead us. (*** END SPOLER ***) If anyone is interested in seeing this (I think I have it around here somewhere) I can netmail it to them. It's a bit long to post (25 pages). Herb Miller ARPA: hmiller@athena.mit.edu burdvax!bmiller@seismo.css.gov UUCP: ...mit-athena!hmiller ...burdvax!bmiller ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 86 11:21:13 EST From: nutto%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Andy Steinberg) Subject: Before the Beginning I do remember in STAR WARS after the logo came on the screen it then said EPISODE IV and gave a summary of what was happening. Back in the summer of 1983 I turned on Doctor Who in Boston and just before the program started they showed an advertisement for the Star Wars saga which would begin that Friday on National Public Radio 89.7 FM. The series was composed of 13 half-hour shows, the first several dealing with incidents that took place before the opening of the first Star Wars movie. It started out on some planet with the Princess Leia and the captain of the ship later attacked by the star destroyer discussing his mission to a solar system containing a rebel base. While talking they were interrupted by Darth Vader. The three exchanged the usual diplomatic formalities and then departed. Princess Leia traveled back to Alderaan while the captain flew his ship to the rebel base. The Princess, now back on Alderaan, was met by her (adopted)father and an Imperial governer who wanted to marry her. Unfortunately the governer was killed during a scuffle with Leia and her father and she was forced to leave the planet while her father disposed of the body. Meanwhile, the ship receiving the Death Star plans from the rebel base out in space is found by the Star Destroyer. The captain sends his ship into hyperspace and emerges near Tatoonine only to be followed by the Star Destroyer. I do not remember when Leia joined the captain on his ship. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 86 11:46:46 EST From: nutto%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Andy Steinberg) Subject: More on STAR BLAZERS Last year at the U-Mass Science Fiction Socitey's NOTJUSTANOTHERCON I was fortunate enough to view the entire Star Blazers fifth movie all in one sitting and in Japanese. The person who brought the tape also knew the story and was translating the main topics to us, the audience. It started out with a brief history of the planet Aquarius. Aquarius is a planet which is composed entirely of water and circles the Universe once every 4 billion years. Aquarius was responsible for cooling the Earth down by drenching it with water soon after its firey birth and thereby starting life. Aquarius was also responsible for the Biblical flood. The scene then shifts out into deep space to another solar system. One of the planets is inhabitied by a race of humanoids with blue skin and long white hair. Aquarius is passing by their planet and because of the gravititational differences Aquarius drenches the planet with water. The Yamato comes out of warp drive near the planet and rescues many of its people. Unfortunately, they all die except for one small boy. After Aquarius goes out of range an enormous spaceship is seen coming back towards the planet. The ship is basically two planets joined together by a huge shaft. The rear part is just a nuclear reactor the size of Earth's moon. The crew on this ship come from the planet and are terrified to see that their world has just been destroyed. They sight the Yamato and fire missiles at it, believing it to be responsible. The crew manage to warp the badly damaged Yamato back to Earth. Meanwhile, on the alien ship, the captain reveals their own history. It turns out that these people originated on Earth. They worshiped the Devil, the rest of the humans worshipped God. After the Biblical flood, the blue people left Earth in a spacecraft. Now, their own planet destroyed, they decide to warp the planet Aquarius to the Earth to wash out all human life. This will take three warps to do. They build up power and warp Aquarius and their ship once. On Earth Wildstar feels he has failed his command and so a new captain is put in charge of the Yamato, none other than Captain Avatar. Apparently Earth science can now bring back the dead. The crew and the repaired Yamato take off again to stop the aliens plans. They Yamato and Aquarius warp into the same space. The Yamato lands on Aquarius where the spirit of the planet talks to them. She tells them that the aliens are warping Aquarius toward the Earth and she can do nothing to stop them. Before she can say more, the Yamato is attacked by the aliens fighter fleet. The Yamato uses new anti-missile missiles and wave motion capsules(each capsule contains 1/8 the energy of the wave motion gun) to destroy the fighter fleet. Then the Yamato penetrates the giant ship's force field and lands on its midsection. They manage to destroy the ship, but not before it warps Aquarius for the third time to Earth. Captain Avatar devises a plan. They manufacture a green liquid that will somehow calm the waters of Aquarius. To do this, however, they must reverse the power of the wave motion gun which will explode the Yamato when fired. Avatar secretly stays on board and fires the gun. The green liquid sprays out into space and stops the Aquarian waters from drenching the Earth. Avatar and the Yamto are destroyed and Aquarius continues on its way. The movie ends with Wildstar's and Nova's wedding. ------------------------------ Subject: Star Trek: "Metamorphosis" From: Andrew T. Robinson <ANDY%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1986 12:36 EST The cloud creature was "definitely feminine" (as indicated by the Universal Translator, which considers "male" and "female" universal concepts). Whether this means it was a female or not I don't know, but I do know that only the most warped mind could construe the relationship between Cochran and the Cloud Creature a homosexual one. It is doubtful indeed if such creatures would even HAVE a "sex" -- why would such a concept be needed? I highly doubt they reproduce by sexual means (at least not the way we think of it). Don't get me wrong--I think that if Star Trek had made an episode about homosexuality that would have been great, but "Metamorphosis" is not a story of homosexual love--it is a story of inter-species love. And every connotation present in the story leads me to believe that the cloud creature is/was in some way feminine. As to Kirk's argument to get The Companion to let go of Cochran was not necessarily motivated by a real feeling that such a relationship was unworkable (indeed, through the whole story Kirk and Spock were pointing out HOW practical the relationship was). The Companion not only wanted Cochran, she/it wanted the Enterprise people and the dying Hedford to remain too... That was a pretty strong motivation for Kirk to come up with ANY story to get the companion to let go of Cochran. Andy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 86 15:12:58 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Harcourt Fenton Mudd Roger C. Carmel, who played Harry Mudd on Star Trek, died last week. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Nov 86 16:08:00 GMT From: acf4!percus@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus) Subject: Don't hold your breath for Tripods Apparently the word has not yet spread here, but there will be no third season of Tripods. It has fallen prey to the axe of Mr. Michael Grade, Controller of BBC-1, famous for placing Dr. Who on hiatus for 18 months. I don't quite understand his reasons for this move -- I finally comprehend his purpose for trying to cancel Dr. Who (he disapproved of the producer, for good reason, and had to find a way to force him out -- I know I will be flamed for my defensive attitude here), but the cancellation of Tripods is a mystery. If you want a third season of Tripods, WRITE TO MICHAEL GRADE! HE IS RESPONSIVE TO PUBLIC PRESSURE, as the case with Dr. Who has proven. Now is the time to act. A. G. Percus (ARPA) percus@acf4 (NYU) percus.acf4 (UUCP) ...{allegra|ihnp4|harvard|seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 86 18:37:47 EST From: nutto%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Andy Steinberg) Subject: The Three Tripods The Tripods was originally a trilogy written by British author John Christopher. The White Mountains and The City Of Gold And Lead were made into TV series about two years ago. The second part ended in a cliffhanger with the boys returning from the Tripod City with others only to find the freemen's base destroyed. The acting, the plot, and the special effects of the series were flawless. The three books are out in bookstores now, but you may have to hunt for them. I have heard that the reason the TV Tripods was so good because it "stole" all the money from Doctor Who. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 86 18:32:33 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: T.V. series and books about The Tripods by J. Christoper grant@ukecc.UUCP (Miles) writes: >Has anyone seen a series on PBS called "The Tripods"? It is made by >england and austrailia, and is a television adaptation of J. >Christoper's trilogy about the tripods. > >I have seen the first 2 chunks, and am eagerly awaiting the third. Rumor has it that the BBC ran out of funds for the third season. It was not and cannot now be made. An additional rumor suggested that when fans all over the world wrote in to ask that Dr. Who would not be cancelled, they had to get the funds for the next season of Dr. Who someplace and they came from "Tripods." That caused the cancellation. These are unconfirmed rumors. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 86 19:00:01 GMT From: ukecc!grant@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Miles) Subject: Re: Don't hold your breath for Tripods I am pretty disappointed to hear that the tripods have been cancelled, (if that is the case). I know the BBC'c address, (roughly) and would write, but I think it would be a losing battle. The tripods trilogy and the series were both excellent, and I don't know why the Beeb (What we english people call the BBC) axed it. I'm sure Dr. Who will be under the axe eventually too. If you or anyone has the address to the beeb I will write. If there are any points, discussions or ideas about the tripods or the tyranny of the British Broadcasting Corporation.. Please post here.. Miles Grant ------------------------------ Date: 16 Nov 86 23:50:48 GMT From: mmm!cipher@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Andre Guirard) Subject: A new twist on the time travel question I've seen various postings in this group from people giving schemes for how to make it big in the past using just what they already know. While this is interesting, I feel I've had enough answers to this particular question. Why don't youse folks address the following: Suppose you suspected that at any moment you and everything on your person might be catapulted into the past to sometime A.D. You would get inoculated against all sorts of nasties, I suspect, and in addition you would get together a little kit of things you would not want to be without when you arrived and carry it with you always. What I want to know is, what would that kit contain? ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 86 04:14:28 GMT From: griffith@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Cutter John) Subject: Re: A new twist on the time travel question cipher@mmm.UUCP (Andre Guirard) writes: >I've seen various postings in this group from people giving schemes >for how to make it big in the past using just what they already >know. While this is interesting, I feel I've had enough answers to >this particular question. Why don't youse folks address the >following: you would get together a little kit of things you would >not want to be without when you arrived and carry it with you >always. What I want to know is, what would that kit contain? Easy, kinda. 1 towel - that's all you need. Seriously, 1 Swiss Army knife - The only gadget MacGuyver's ever used that made sense 1 coil of some kind of wire. 1 Magnifying lens - in case my knife doesn't have it. 1 First Aid kit - including snake bite kit 1 hand gun of some kind with plenty of ammunition - preferably an Uzi several ounces of gold and silver (maybe platinum? Naahh) Copy of Newton's Principia Glass beads and trinkets. Chewing gum. VCR and several Star Trek episodes (ok, maybe not) 1 slide rule 1 hatchet and/or large knife/machete - "Now THIS is a knife" 1 water condenser 1 parka Toilet paper Extra pair of underwear. That's about it off the top of my mind. We decided that a compass was either meaningless or redundant, since you can probably tell directions by the sun. Jim Griffith griffith@cory.Berkeley.EDU ...!ucbvax!cory!griffith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 86 09:52 PST From: PUGH%CCX.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Time Travel (yes, again!) I have loved the expositions on what 20th century bimbos could do in some previous time, but I think it's run 90 percent of it's course. Let's change the rules a bit (that's the great part of SF to me). Now you have a time machine and a nice theory of time that states you can go back, change things, and return to either future you want (or visit both to see the differences). Now you get to prepare and take a small stock of supplies with you. What would you change? Me, I would like to go put the fear of God in the people in Salem. Let's see them burn witches when an angel (complete with wings, lights, horns, and a flying harness) drops down in front of the church and tells them not too. Granted it's a bit dangerous, but it could be fun! Or how about arriving at Custer's last stand and trying to convince and or fool him or the Indians into going the wrong way. Would that make any difference? I bet we'd be surprised how things could change with little things like that. Remember Connections on PBS? (Isn't he doing a new show?) Let's here it from the history benders! What's your favorite? Wanna get rich? I would like to have stowed away on one of the later Apollo missions. With my luck I would probably have gotten on number 13. (After the Challenger accident, don't you think those guys were LUCKY!!!!) Jon ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Nov 86 0924-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #390 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 24 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 390 Today's Topics: Books - Niven (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 19 Nov 86 14:44:46 GMT From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? (Ringworld error) THe earliest edition of _Ringworld_ has Wu travelling around the world in the wrong direction. Later editions are supposed to have had this corrected. C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 86 11:26:57 GMT From: weemba@brahms (Matthew P Wiener) Subject: Larry Niven vs James Clerk Maxwell vnend@ukecc.UUCP (D. W. James) writes: >Begging your pardon, but what was the "major glaring error" that >made Ringworld so easy to disbelieve? I seem to have read a few >years ago that someone had done some rather rigorous math and >engineering studies on the idea and had found is sound, though with >a few problems that Niven hadn't reallized (ie, the instability >that was featured in _Ringworld Engineers_). Would you care to >explain? You seem to have read something somewhere, but I definitely know about J C Maxwell's (as in Maxwell's equations) work on stability of rings systems. That was what I had in mind when I cracked up laughing. I *am* aware that he then wrote the sequel with this in mind--that is not my point. Don't get me wrong. At some point I will probably put my disbelief aside and read the book. As long as he doesn't rub the science in my nose, and as long as it is interesting, I may even like it. I mean, I couldn't stop smirking when Asimov in _Foundation's Edge_ made the comment that Terminus was just next door to the massive galactic black hole, and of course he had never meant that it was at the *exact* center. The poor book was weak no matter where he put Terminus. Matthew P Wiener UCB Math Dept Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!weemba ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 86 15:19:31 GMT From: gsmith@brahms (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? vnend@ukecc.UUCP (D. W. James) writes: >weemba@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Matthew P Wiener) writes: >>On the other other hand, I doubled up in laughter instantly when a >>friend told me about Niven's _Ringworld_. >Begging your pardon, but what was the "major glaring error" that >made Ringworld so easy to disbelieve? Since "Ringworld" is a good example of the "hard" sf genre, it might be instructive to take a look at the various impossible and illogical things which we find in it. If you will recall, Our Heros get to the Ringworld on a faster-than-light ship, which is such a normal impossible thing that we don't even notice it any more. The ship has a GP hull, which means it is made out of Very Hard Stuff #1. They find a Ringworld made out of Very Hard Stuff #2. As if two completely different kinds of VHS were not enough, they could have simply used the "stasis field" in either case--and why didn't they? In the sequel, we discover that the Ringworld was made by protectors--but protectors are clearly in contradiction to known facts about primate evolution on the earth (they are also a very nice idea and a good example of why sf authors ignore illogical contradictions-- a good story idea is worth it!) We also discover that the puppeteers have been breeding for "luck" in humans and seem to have succeeded-- an idea which clearly makes no sense at all, because "luck", if it were an inheritable trait, would be the ultimate in survival value; hence it would already exist. In any case, the reasons given for the puppeteers belief in human "luck" make no sense, since a better explanation would be the secret use of human protectors in the human-Kzin wars. Then we have the problems we have already discussed, plus other evidence (such as the large hole in the Ringworld) of sloppy engineering by the presumably advanced Ringworld engineers. Of course, some of the above gets re-worked in Ringworld Engineers, but this is an after-thought, so it really doesn't count. In many ways, the difference between most "hard" sf and fantasy is terminological: does one call it wizardry, or science? Do we find elves, or aliens? The idea that "fantasy" is impossible whereas "sf" is realistic is a pleasant fantasy in itself. There is no way we can prove that "The Lord of the Rings" is not the actual pre-history of the earth, though I admit it doesn't seem likely. I have about the same feeling towards "Ringworld": maybe the sort of things in it are possible; but they certainly seem very, very implausible. Gene Ward Smith UCB Math Dept Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: 20 Nov 86 02:18:17 GMT From: jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? Larry Niven has at various times explained that he stopped writing "known space" stories partly because he got tired of them, and partly because it was getting harder and harder to keep from contradicting himself -- not only in terms of "history" but in terms of technology. It's terribly embarrassing to spend a whole short story setting up some technological problem for the hero, and then have some teenage fan point out that the problem could have been solved trivially with a stasis field or Grog telepathy or whatever. One of the specific examples he has used is "bolonium" -- the proper name for whatever impossible material you happen to need at the moment. Having invented one kind of bolonium (GP hulls) for "There Is A Tide" (where the whole puzzle was "what can get through an impenetrable hull?") he was stuck with it. He had to have stasis fields for "World of Ptaavs" so then he was stuck with those (though it's not clear why you can't make a hull out of stasis fields. Perhaps you can't make one concave?) Neither one would work for Ringworld -- GP hulls only came in certain (mostly small) sizes and shapes, and stasis fields presumably get hard to make in large sizes (and how would you hold small ones together?) (Besides, "Fist of God" couldn't have gotten thru a stasis field). Anyway, Niven needed _scrith_ for Ringworld. But now he had so many kinds of bolonium that an awful lot of good plots could be solved trivially by invoking one of them ... so he just abandoned the whole universe and started over. Incidentally, bolonium is a key component in that wonderful alloy Unobtainium, with which we could build remarkable things like orbital skyhooks and vacuum-filled balloons if we could just _get_ some. Also incidentally, Niven's recovery scheme in Ringworld Engineers isn't much more plausible than the original Ringworld. The force pulling the ringworld off center increases with the distance off center, so even a very conservatively designed system for stabilizing small displacements (even up to the scale produced by Fist of God) would be hopelessly inadequate to counter the sort of several-percent displacement that occurred while the stabilizer was dismantled. The ratio of thrusts needed is comparable to the ratio of the mass of Fist of God (a good-sized asteroid) to the mass of Ringworld (several Earth masses). There is nothing unreasonable, though, about the basic notion of stabilizing an inherently unstable system like the Ringworld (or a bicycle!), so one should not laugh at the notion too soon. I have heard of, but not seen, a painting showing a ringworld colliding with its sun -- surely one of the most spectacular catastrophes imaginable.... Jordin Kare jtk@s1-c.ARPA jtk@mordor.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 20 Nov 86 19:47:28 GMT From: fortune!stirling@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Patrick Stirling) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? (Ringworld) >Gene Ward Smith (ucbvax!brahms!gsmith) writes: > Since "Ringworld" is a good example of the "hard" sf genre, it >might be instructive to take a look at the various impossible and >illogical things which we find in it. The ship has a GP hull, >which means it is made out of Very Hard Stuff #1. They find a >Ringworld made out of Very Hard Stuff #2. As if two completely >different kinds of VHS were not enough, they could have simply used >the "stasis field" in either case--and why didn't they? They DID use the stasis field - to alleviate the boredom of the 2-year journey to the ringworld. The statis field is a field, not a substance; you couldn't build anything out of it. It encloses things. I don't see anything wrong with 2 kinds of VHS; for all we know, they may have been different forms of the same basic stuff. >In the sequel, we discover that the Ringworld was made by >protectors--but protectors are clearly in contradiction to known >facts about primate evolution on the earth (they are also a very >nice idea and a good example of why sf authors ignore illogical >contradictions-- a good story idea is worth it!) I agree with your parenthetical comment, but evolution is hotly contested even now, and is not perfectly understood, and is a THEORY. I don't think you can call the Protectors a major error. There's no illogical contradiction, a reasonable explanation is that the protector world is like ours, and when humans arrived here (with protectors), we eliminated all competition, and the primates already here never developed into "native" humans. The protectors then died out, because their staple food won't grow here. >We also discover that the puppeteers have been breeding for "luck" >in humans and seem to have succeeded-- an idea which clearly makes >no sense at all, because "luck", if it were an inheritable trait, >would be the ultimate in survival value; hence it would already >exist. How do you know it doesn't exist? Maybe we're extremely lucky. We wouldn't notice it, being used to our natural luck-level. >In any case, the reasons given for the puppeteers belief in human >"luck" make no sense, since a better explanation would be the >secret use of human protectors in the human-Kzin wars. But there are no human protectors, as I explained above. Another Niven book, 'Protector' explains all about protectors, BTW. >Then we have the problems we have already discussed, plus other >evidence (such as the large hole in the Ringworld) of sloppy >engineering by the presumably advanced Ringworld engineers. No one can account for every occurrence. Once an artifact is abandoned by its keepers, it will usually deteriorate after a while. The ringworld had been abandoned. >maybe the sort of things in [rongwolrd] are possible; but they >certainly seem very, very implausible. I didn't think it was any less plausible than any other SF. So I still don't know what your "glaring major error" is! There's another book you might also love to hate (:-)), about a Dyson sphere world. It's like Ringworld except it's a full sphere around a sun. I'm afraid I can't remember its name or author (anyone?). The world is found by accident at the beginning of the book. patrick {ihnp4, hplabs, amdcad, ucbvax!dual}!fortune!stirling ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 86 06:21:02 GMT From: husc2!chiaraviglio@rutgers.rutgers.edu (lucius) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? gsmith@brahms (Gene Ward Smith) writes: > We also discover that the puppeteers have been breeding for "luck" > in humans and seem to have succeeded-- an idea which clearly makes > no sense at all, because "luck", if it were an inheritable trait, > would be the ultimate in survival value; hence it would already > exist. One thing to remember is that just because a certain evolutionary step is advantageous doesn't mean it will have already occurred. If such immediate evolution occurred in every case we wouldn't have an appendix, which is a thing with no function, and we would be able to detoxify all sorts of plant poisons, and thus be able to eat many foods which we are denied. That evolution of such a trait would be of survival value is advantageous and possible is undeniable -- many creatures can live with substances that we cannot stand -- but evolution of such a trait would require more generations than we have had. The more complex a trait is, the longer it is going to take to evolve it. So, some things that have survival value are not around, because they have not had time to evolve yet. Also, some traits may require several steps which are only advantageous in combination, but not by themselves. Such traits will take a very long time to evolve, if they evolve at all. Lucius Chiaraviglio chiaraviglio@husc4.harvard.edu seismo!husc4!chiaraviglio ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 86 17:57:20 GMT From: husc2!chiaraviglio@rutgers.rutgers.edu (lucius) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? (Ringworld) stirling@fortune.UUCP (Patrick Stirling) writes: > They DID use the stasis field - to alleviate the boredom of the > 2-year journey to the ringworld. The statis field is a field, not > a substance; you couldn't build anything out of it. It encloses > things. I don't see anything wrong with 2 kinds of VHS; for all we > know, they may have been different forms of the same basic stuff. You can enclose things in the stasis field and thus protect them, but by definition time comes nearly to a halt for all things inside the stasis field -- sometimes useful but not always what you want. And you can't make a wall all the way around your hull out of stasis fields by having an inner field that negates the time-stopping effect of the outer one because, as explained in <World of Ptavvs>, some fundamental law of physics (as presented by the book) makes it impossible to have one stasis field inside another. > I agree with your parenthetical comment, but evolution is hotly > contested even now, and is not perfectly understood, and is a > THEORY. I don't think you can call the Protectors a major error. > There's no illogical contradiction, a reasonable explanation is > that the protector world is like ours, and when humans arrived > here (with protectors), we eliminated all competition, and the > primates already here never developed into "native" humans. The > protectors then died out, because their staple food won't grow > here. I have news for you. It is now essentially proven that humans evolved from lower primates which in turn evolved from lower forms of life, by the science of Molecular Biology. Examination of DNA sequence homology, among other things, allows one to distinguish between convergent evolution and divergent evolution -- in the latter case you get much more homology than in the former, since evolution consists mainly of modification of what's already there. For example, if we hadn't evolved from something close to chimpanzees, we wouldn't have ~98% DNA sequence homology to them -- for this to happen on another world by convergent evolution would be exceedingly improbable. And we have lesser but still impressive DNA sequence homologies to other, more distantly-related organisms. >>We also discover that the puppeteers have been breeding for "luck" >>in humans and seem to have succeeded-- an idea which clearly makes >>no sense at all, because "luck", if it were an inheritable trait, >>would be the ultimate in survival value; hence it would already >>exist. > > How do you know it doesn't exist? Maybe we're extremely lucky. We > wouldn't notice it, being used to our natural luck-level. If it did exist, we would notice variations in the trait due to mutations. Hmmm. . .maybe that explains why I have such trouble getting my lab experiments to work. . . . Lucius Chiaraviglio chiaraviglio@husc4.harvard.edu seismo!husc4!chiaraviglio ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Nov 86 0942-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #391 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 24 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 391 Today's Topics: Books - Carey & Eddings & Palmer (3 msgs) & Roshwald & Wylie (2 msgs) & Zelazny ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Nov 86 15:31:25 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Re: Battlestations! If you can suspend disbelief long enough to watch Piper take out 3 Star Fleet Security people, have her ship use a tractor beam to bend the Enterprise's nacelle strut so the people who have taken it over won't get away, and Scanner's telling Piper how to aim the transwarp flux to use it as a weapon (and then her DOING it), it is a good book. I did enjoy it. st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 86 01:34:46 GMT From: rabbit1!dml@rutgers.rutgers.edu (David Langdon) Subject: Re: David Eddings I for one, liked the Belgariad series and am looking forward to reading the Mallorean one. I happen to like Eddings' style and don't care why he is doing another series. Hopefully, it won't turn out like the Covenant series which in the second trilogy got completely lost and was mostly worthless (yes, I read the whole thing anyway.) David Langdon Rabbit Software Corp. 7 Great Valley Parkway East Malvern PA 19355 (215) 647-0440 ...!ihnp4!{cbmvax,cuuxb}!hutch!dml ...!psuvax1!burdvax!hutch!dml ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 86 23:00:55 GMT From: petsd!cjh@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Chris Henrich) Subject: Re: Stupid Smart People and Palmer's Emergence gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) writes: > Before we again forget about Palmer's "Emergence", I think it >would be fun to analyize it from another point of view. [ >Describes the spontaneous mutation of "homo post hominem" in > that novel] ... These are clearly all separate changes in the >genetic code, and some at least (the last one clearly) are not just >minor changes, but massive re-write jobs. It is quite obviously not >plausible to assume that this happened fortuitously. The clear >implication is that some unknown agency (I propose a black >monolith) has been deliberately tampering with human evolution. A simpler hypothesis is that Mr. Palmer wasn't thinking clearly about evolution. (It is possible to fail to think clearly about evolution. Come to talk.origins and learn how!) Because the word "evolution" is grammatically a noun, sometimes we talk as if it denoted a Thing: evolution made this happen, and then it made that happen, etc. Pop books about human origins (I am remembering _The Naked Ape_ by Desmond Morris, in particular) even represent Evolution as a planner - doing this, that and the other *in order that* something else might be the result. It occurs to me that Palmer may have been influenced by A. E. van Vogt's novel _Slan_. The telepathy, increased strength, and increased resistance to disease of "homo post hominem" are similar to the characteristics of van Vogt's "slans." Regards, Christopher J. Henrich UUCP: ...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh US Mail: MS 313; Concurrent Computer Corporation; 106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 Phone: (201) 758-7288 ------------------------------ Date: 20 Nov 86 13:12:44 GMT From: gsmith@brahms (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: Stupid Smart People and Palmer's Emergence cjh@petsd.UUCP (PUT YOUR NAME HERE) writes: >gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) writes: >>The clear implication is that some unknown agency (I propose a >>black monolith) has been deliberately tampering with human >>evolution. >A simpler hypothesis is that Mr. Palmer wasn't thinking clearly >about evolution. Of course he wasn't. My "X factor" *was* Palmer from one point of view. >It occurs to me that Palmer may have been influenced by A. E. van >Vogt's novel _Slan_. The telepathy, increased strength, and >increased resistance to disease of "homo post hominem" are similar >to the characteristics of van Vogt's "slans." With one difference: van Vogt at least knows he must put in something about our ideas of evolution having been superceded. The "hominems" were in the position of believing standard evolutionary theory, from which point of view the whole thing stinks like a dead mackerel as soon as one thinks about it--and they *must* think about it, because they are so smart! Gene Ward Smith UCB Math Dept Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ucbvax!weyl!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: 20 Nov 86 22:37:21 GMT From: starfire!ddb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet) Subject: Re: EMERGENCE desj@brahms (David desJardins) writes: > trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes: >>How realistic do you think it would be for a prepubescent person, >>regardless of how knowledgeable and intelligent, to have the >>*wisdom* to understand people well enough to develop their >>characters in a diary? > ... You don't need to understand people well to write down what > they do. And their actions are what form their characters. > On the other hand, if you are saying that the book does not > actually describe what really is supposed to have happened, but > her misperceptions of events, then this would be some excuse. Some excuse for her, but not much excuse for the actual author of the actual book (David R. Palmer, for those who have lost track). In fiction, unlike in libel actions, truth is no defense. I must add that I do not personally agree with most of the objections expressed about the book here on the net (except for the one about the compressed style), and that I liked it very much indeed. But I felt a need to address the life / art confusion. David Dyer-Bennet Usenet: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb Fido: sysop of fido 14/341, (612) 721-8967 Telephone: (612) 721-8800 USmail: 4242 Minnehaha Ave S Mpls, MN 55406 ------------------------------ Date: 20 Nov 86 11:01:19 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Mordecai Roshwald > From: styx!mcb (Michael C. Berch) > Does anybody know of anything else by Roshwald? Is he still > around? I don't know if Roshwald is still around (he'd be 65, so it's likely). Since 1957 --- up to at least 1978, when my source (R. Reginald's SF AND FANTASY LITERATURE) was published --- he's been a Professor of Social and Political Philosophy at the U. of Minnesota. He had at least one other novel, also sf, published: A SMALL ARMAGEDDON (1962). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian or ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 20 Nov 1986 10:07:55-EST From: wyzansky@NADC Subject: Re: Post Holocaust Novels > From: ihuxv!rck@rutgers.rutgers.edu (R. C. Kukuk) > Does anyone remember TRIUMPH by Philip Wylie? Philip Wylie also wrote _Tomorrow_, about a more limited nuclear war. It was more of a preaching on the virtues of Civil Defense preparedness. _Triumph_ was pretty good. I remember it being serialized in the Saturday Evening Post (which is showing my age). Has it ever been determined which of the two atmospheric models is correct - the one in _Triumph_ which leaves the Northern hemisphere lethally radioactive while the Southern goes on as if nothing happened, or the one in Shute's _On_the_Beach_, where the radiation spreads across the equator and kills off everybody? Harold Wyzansky wyzansky@nadc.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 86 14:09:53 est From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Wylie--comment and query >Does anyone remember TRIUMPH by Philip Wylie? I'd say that this, like TOMORROW, is more of a during-holocaust novel. Speaking of "TOMORROW", was or wasn't "The Day After" borrowed lock, stock and tomahawk from this book (the title, the subject and many details), and with precious little thanks? ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 86 20:41:39 GMT From: ukecc!vnend@rutgers.rutgers.edu (D. W. James) Subject: Re: shadowtravel 6105530@PUCC.BITNET writes: >I think there is an added complication, which is that the closer >you are to Amber, physically, the more difficult it is to travel >shadow. I don't think that 'physically' is the right term here. Note that shadow travel is also very difficult in the shadows closest to Amber, places that can't really be said to be 'close' to Amber at all, in the sense that if a 'normal' person started to walk to them from Amber they couldn't get there at all (excepting accidental shadow shifting, a thing that is mentioned a few times). So there seems to be a sense of proximity that transends the 'physical'. Other than that possibly minor quibble I agree. >For instance, it is easier for folks like Merlin and Corwin to get >to distant shadows if they just walk a bit away from Amber, then >start manipulating shadow. I think this points to Amber being a >sort of central point from which shadows extend, A major point here. There is a big problem with calling Amber 'central'. It is stated in the books that Chaos existed before Amber. It is also to some extent implied that shadows existed before Amber, though in lesser number and variety. Therefore I don't think you can say that Amber is 'central'. It is, however, definitely a node of some type, one with special properties, as we are observing. If the word 'node' bothers anyone, how about 'pole'? I think we can say that Amber IS the center of Order, with an exact center at the center of the Pattern in Amber Prime(the Pattern that is open to the sky.). However this center is as much 'magical' or 'philosophical' as it is 'physical'. >meaning that although Amberites can add and subtract features as >they like, the closer to Amber they are physically, the closer the >shadow they are on will be to Amber...meaning that one could not >simply walk in circles to get to France. The path would have to >project outwards until it reached a place where France could exist. >Going directly to France would be an added bonus of precisely what >was used to focus on that shadow. But we are told in _Courts of Chaos_ that although most Amberites tend to travel in straight lines that circular travel will work just as well, in fact Corwin escapes Brand that way. What matters is that the person who is manipulating shadow have some sense of movement, of things changing around them. And even this may not be an absolute requirement, note that Brand learns to travel shadows just by visualizing them. I think that is just a matter of strength and practice. Oberon was able to shift shadow on Kolvir itself, and later on so was Corwin, though it was tiring. The problem I see in the section above is a confusion of what 'distance' really means in a multi-planer or even multi-universal situation. If you are not on the same shadow as Amber itself, then you are on an entirely different world. You could not ride or walk in a certain direction, for a given distance, do a shadow shift and find yourself in Amber (not the best analogy, I know). 'France' could, to an Amberite, lie in any direction, because it is not 'a place' but a set of conditions. The greater the net differences between two places, the further apart they are, to an Amberite. The physical distance or time to be traveled is irrelevent, they can (and in a couple of instances do) take 'shortcuts' that take little time or space, but which make for vast differences in shadow. The best example is Random going to get Brand in _Sign of the Unicorn_. With a series of clouds he gets rid of the sun, taking him 'further in shadow than I had been in a long time.'(quoting from memory, but it should be very close) So physical distance is not the way to look at it. >And, when on a shadow that looks like home sweet home, it's much >easier to take a plane or cab than it is to leave and come back, >pulling in different features from the same place. Any thoughts? That depends on how far you have to travel, but in most cases I'll concede that point. Yes, just a few more things. It is never said just how difficult it is to manipulate shadow as you near the Courts. I do note that you can't actually walk in shadow once you reach them, beyond is only the Void, Primal Chaos, which can be shaped, but into which no-one travels(oops, I forgot about the Unicorn. I think I'll welch and say she is a special case) However, you can use the Logrus(if you are good enough) to change things there. It seems to me though that, if it is difficult/impossible to shift shadow in the Courts, but not that hard once you get a little distance away, that this is in a sense consistant; that close to Chaos you would think that things would be easier to change. Here's where I get a little wild though. Fact 1: The closer you are to the center of Amber Prime, the harder it is to manipulate shadow. Fact 2: The closer you are to the center of gravity of a mass, the stronger the force drawing you to it. Fact 3: From the center of the Pattern you can travel anywhere, instantly. Fact 4: At the very center of gravity of a mass you are weightless, with respect to that mass (assuming you could get there, which you can't except in the case of a black hole). So what do we have? A gradient that climbs toward infinity in both cases, with a radical discontinuity at 0. At the center of a mass all gravitational stresses are equal, at the center of the Pattern all places are equally 'distant'. Play with that for a while. (I note that there are in fact 4 representations of the Pattern of Amber(Corwin's is different (or is it...)). In fact though they must all be the same Pattern. Note that Corwin walked the Pattern in Rebma, transported himself to the Pattern in Amber, then transported himself again. If walking the Pattern stored the energy to teleport then he would have had to do so twice to do this. If all shifting from one Pattern to another did was to change his surroundings without changing his location then this will work, with all 4 Patterns.) I just reread everything down to this point and something else interesting occured to me. From the stuff of Raw Chaos you can, if you are good at it, draw anything(I suppose there must be some limits, but I don't know, nor does it really matter for the moment what they are). At the center of the Pattern you are equally distant from all things... But! above I pointed out that to an Amberite that distance is one of differences, or of similarities. So you could say that at the center of the Pattern all things are possible, as all CONDITIONS are possible. That sounds a lot like the nature of Chaos doesn't it? From the center of Order all things are possible and from the (center?) of Chaos all things are possible. Unity. But it gets worse. Once a person has walked the Pattern, as I noted above, he/she can change locations freely as long as they remain at the center of the Pattern. From the point of view of the characters in the books this requires that they be able to see the Pattern around them. Is this necessary? Suppose you walk to the center of the Pattern. You are now able to visualize any place and be transported there, BUT YOU HAVEN"T MOVED! If you did it with your eyes closed you could still be at the center of the Pattern, you would still be able to transport yourself again. What if the Amberites have just been fooling themselves all along? The power is within them, once they have walked the Pattern once. If only they realized that they could never really leave that place once they had been there, they would all be able to seek and move through shadow at will! Frightening, no? Yet that seems very close to what Brand was doing. On a lighter note, remember that it was said that even things that couldn't walk in shadows could sometimes 'slip' from one shadow to another? When was the last time you found your keys someplace other than where you REMEMBERED leaving them? Or misremembered something that you were CERTAIN you knew? I guess you just slipped shadows a little.... Think about it. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Nov 86 1000-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #392 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 24 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 392 Today's Topics: Books - Banks & Barr & Boyett (2 msgs) & Brin & Card & Dick & Heinlein & Hogan & Hubbard (2 msgs) & Steakley & Zelazny ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 23 Nov 86 02:49:04 MST From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley) Subject: WALKING ON GLASS by Iain Banks I'd never read anything by Iain Banks before, so it was a bit of a lark for me to order his novel WALKING ON GLASS (Futura (UK), c1985; 239pp) sight unseen, but I did and now I'm glad I did. Of course I've always had a weakness for those inevitably British science fiction novels which delight in absurdity, showing how people keep the traditionally rigid upper lip when the world around them is going insane. I suppose Douglas Adams' HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE books are in this category. At the same time I love to indulge in those equally British science fiction novels which put an emphasis on the psychological stresses of the characters; this class of fiction is written by authors like J G Ballard or Christopher Priest. Imagine my surprise to find a novel which uses both styles at the same time: WALKING ON GLASS. The novel is structured in an odd way. Each chapter is split into three sections, each of which deals with a completely different mental environment (it's up to the reader to decide whether they represent different physical environments). The central section is the world of Steven Grout, a man who is a potentially violent paranoid schizophrenic, who believes that motor vehicles are equipped with invisible lasers which shoot out of their axles and are designed to cut him down while he staggers down the sidewalk. Grout's world overlaps subtly with his two neighboring worlds -- on the one hand we have Graham Park, a country boy who has come to London for art school and has fallen desperately in love with a mysterious lady in black. Park's struggle to learn his lady's secret provides the psychological suspense. On the other hand we have Quiss, a veteran of the Therapeutic Wars who has been exiled to a peculiar castle on a frozen planet in an obscure part of the galaxy, where he is forced to play a series of bizarre games in order to earn his freedom. Quiss's contest provides the comic relief. Eventually these three orthogonal worlds manage to collide, and it some ingenuity on the part of the reader to calculate their respective changes in momentum... Banks' juxtaposition of Hitchcock-like suspense with slapstick from a Warner Bros. cartoon may seem grating to some, but I loved it. The universes of GLASS are absurd and contrary both superficially and deeply -- they are consistently inconsistent, like an Escher painting. I also enjoyed the book for the quality of its writing, which hits just the right note of seriousness or silliness when the story calls for it, and has some wonderfully witty dialogue and descriptions. I think I probably was lucky to happen onto this book -- if Banks hasn't been lucky enough to sell an American edition of this book, you may have to order it just as I did. 'Earth got blown up in that one too... ah...' Graham kept snapping his fingers. Slater was silent for a second, gazing disdainfully at Graham's snapping fingers, then he said tiredly, 'Graham, either concentrate on searching for the title of the book you're talking about or devote your full energies to practising calling for a waiter; I'm not convinced you possess the RAM for doing both at the same time.' Slightly suspicious that 'Iain Banks' is a pseudonym for Douglas Adams, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: 22 Nov 86 02:42:47 GMT From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60jB) Subject: Question on Donald Barr Can anyone tell me if Donald Barr has written any books or stories other than _Space Relations_ and _A Planet in Arms_? I loved both of these books (even though he is one of the few authors who occasionally makes me open the dictionary). I don't read the SF mags and have not found anything in the bookstores. Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 86 18:02:24 EST Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query From: BARBER%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Wayne Barber) clunker!mary@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mary Shurtleff) writes: >You could include in that list the lack of visual care. If you're >one of the many people who use some sort of corrective lenses, >you'd be in deep trouble if you were marooned in a time which >didn't have the technology to maintain your lenses. For example, >what if you got stuck in the Middle Ages without the sterilizer for >your soft contact lenses? If you had a pair of glasses as a backup >and just happened to have them with you, you'd be a little better >off, but you would still run the risk of having the glasses break >with no means of replacing them. You could, of course, try to >reinvent the technology, but it would be tough.... This is an interesting point to bring up, since I recently read it in a new book. _Architect of Sleep_ by Steven Boyett features a main character who travels through a mysterious cave and enters an alternate Earth where Raccoons are the dominant form of life. The character (I don't remember his name) had contact lenses he didn't dare use and his glasses got broken. He was learning to live with not being able to see well. I cannot explain whether or not he reinvents the technology because the book ends with a cliff hanger of sorts. It is obviously going to be a series but I have no idea how long it will be. There was no indication anywhere on the book that it was the first in a series. I hate it when that happens! (:-) Has anyone else read this book and care to comment? There are some interesting ideas in it, but I'm not convinced that the world would be as Boyett portrays it. If you haven't heard of Boyett, he has only one other book out. It's called _Ariel_, and is sort of a post-holocaust book. Instead of humans ruining the world, a Change took place and magic started working and mythical beasts started appearing. I enjoyed the book quite a bit, but I wish he had explained the Change more thoroughly. Wayne Barber Bitnet: Barber@Portland ------------------------------ Date: 20 Nov 86 20:40:48 GMT From: csun!aeusesef@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Sean Eric Fagan) Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query BARBER%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes: > This is an interesting point to bring up, since I recently read it > in a new book. _Architect of Sleep_ by Steven Boyett... Ok, here we go. I read _Architect of Sleep_, and thought is was really pretty good. It was somewhat original (enough so that I was kept interested), and I was disappointed by the short length of it (almost didn't read it, the cover blurb has Piers Anthony recommending it). However, the ending is the *_worst_* ending I have ever seen! It sets up a nice dramatic situation, leaving me in suspense (somewhat), waiting to find out a reason, when BAM! it just ends, not explaining *anything* at all. Disgusting. Other than that, it is a good book. If the sequel comes out, I will buy it (hate being forced to, however), and probably enjoy it. Read and enjoy. Sean Fagan aeusesef@csun.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 22 Nov 86 02:43:17 GMT From: cuuxb!wbp@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Walt Pesch) Subject: Answer to Origins of "The Postman" Kudos to all who came up collectively with the right answer. And the answer... "The Postman" is to some extent a "fix-up" of two novellas, one called "The Postman" and the other called "Cyclops". Both were originally published in IASFM, and both were on the Hugo ballot for best novella of their respective years (with "Postman" doing better). The first section ends with Gordon really trying to play out his postman ruse for the first time. He wants to gain access to a settlement that housed some people that stole a hord of prewar goodies that he found in a doctors house. The following added sections continue to develop the postman character and go into more detail on the state of the present US. Walt Pesch {ihnp4,akgua,et al}!cuuxb!wbp cuuxb!wbp@lll-crg ------------------------------ Date: 20 Nov 86 17:53:09 GMT From: duke!crm@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Card From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) > I've never asked Card whether he considers himself a practicing >Mormon, but I've been to one of his "secular humanist revivals" and >question whether he still calls himself a practicing Christian of >any stripe ("When I say, 'Do you BELIEVE?', I want you to answer >'In what?'"). If you're at a con where he's doing one of these >revivals, \\go//---they're very entertaining. Scott Card is *very devoutly* a practicing Mormon; he really believes in their teachings (mostly -- it's pretty obvious that he is a big believer in evolution, but I seem to recall the most flat-headed of Mormons end up on the same side as the Fundumentalists on that -- but that isn't *really* a major theological point to any but a few.) Scott has been quoted as thinking the work he does which he thinks *may* last a long time is not his SF, but his radio plays and other audio works for the Church. (Greensboro NC paper recently.) But it isn't as odd as it might seem -- when he says he believes in everyone's right to doubt, and to believe what they like, and to practice the religion they choose, and not to be censored because they hold views that don't fit with Jimmy Swaggert and Jerry Falwell, he's protecting *his* right to teach his kids that God sent angels to reveal an extension of Christianity to Joseph Smith. Fundies think the Mormons are misled and doomed unbelieving tools of Satan just as much as they think we Buddhists are. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 86 20:57:05 GMT From: ut-ngp!gknight@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Gary Knight) Subject: Copy of Philip K. Dick novel needed Does anyone know where (and how) I can pick up a copy of Philip K. Dick's DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP? None of my local bookstores have it in stock. Any leads appreciated. Gary Knight 3604 Pinnacle Road, Austin, TX 78746 (512/328-2480). Biopsychology Program, Univ. of Texas at Austin. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 86 07:00:13 GMT From: husc2!chiaraviglio@rutgers.rutgers.edu (lucius) Subject: book title found: <Tunnel in the Sky> A few articles back someone was trying to remember the title of a book in which students being sent to an unknown uncivilized world for a survival course get stranded there for a long time, and have to learn how to survive indefinitely. The title is <Tunnel in the Sky> by Robert A. Heinlein. I highly recommend this book. Lucius Chiaraviglio chiaraviglio@husc4.harvard.edu seismo!husc4!chiaraviglio ------------------------------ Date: 24 Nov 86 05:57:34 GMT From: gsmith@brahms (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Another Example of "Science" Fiction ee162fck@sdcc7.ucsd.EDU (Jude Poole) writes: >By far the best sentient computer novel I have ever come across is >'The two Faces of Tommorrow' by the best hard-sf writer around >today, James P. Hogan. Since I am afraid people are sick of this "hard" sf discussion, I will content myself by pointing out the fact that Hogan is another good source for the claim that the "science" in so-called "hard" sf is typically baloney. In fact, Hogan makes blunders so stupid that he makes Niven seem like "Physics Review" by comparison. Gene Ward Smith UCB Math Dept Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 86 14:36:22 CST From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA> To: USERBHOU%CLVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA Subject: Date & Cause of Hubbard's Death I had posted this complete obituary article to SF-Lovers back when it was printed in the paper, so here's an excerpt: From the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Tuesday, January 28, 1986: "L. Ron Hubbard, the science fiction writer who founded the controversial Church of Scientology three decades ago, has died, the church announced Monday night. He was 74. Hubbard, who was last seen in public in 1980, died Friday [that would have been 24 Jan. '86] of a stroke at his ranch near San Luis Obispo..." Will Martin ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 86 23:24:10 GMT From: morgan@inst8.WISC.EDU (Morgan Clark) Subject: published after author's death >I think L. Ron Hubbard died of a coronary, but I'm not positive. >You can probably check in the second or third book for the date of >his death -- I'm pretty sure it was in one of them. As for >Dianetics, well, I'm sure they'll keep re-releasing it as long as >it sells, even if the author's dead.. (nothing new in this--look >at the number of editions of Lord of the Rings! :-) Not only that! Look at the number of new books JRR Tolkien has come out with *since* his death! The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, Lost Tales, etc. (well, all right, so they were stuff he had already written. Still, I wonder when there won't be any more new books published claiming to be by JRR Tolkien.) Morgan Clark (g-clark@gumby.wisc.edu.ARPA morgan@pokey.wisc.edu.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 86 13:35:29 GMT From: ihuxz!rls@rutgers.rutgers.edu (r.l. schieve) Subject: Re: Anyone read John Steakley? > That book by Steakley sounds very similar to "Starship Troopers" > by Heinlein. Powered armor, Bugs, futuristic infantry -- what > else could you want :-) ? Enough of people posted this this type of response to my original posting that despite my dislike for Heinlein's writing style and my usual rule to stay away from older science fiction, I got a copy of "Starship Troopers." Indeed there are many similarities between the story plots but no similarity between the two author's styles. "Armor" kept me glued to the book with what I think would be a more realistic slant on human nature. As with most of Heinlein's books that I have read, "Starship Troopers" had some good points but many parts of the books seemed to go on and on and on... I put the book down with only 25 pages to go and did not bother to finish it until a week later. Again, I enjoyed and would recommend "Armor" to any science fiction reader looking for something new (with much less moralizing). I appreciate some of the posting and replies that provided information about Steakley and I hope he continues to write science fiction. Rick Schieve ..ihnp4!ihuxz!rls ------------------------------ Date: 20 Nov 86 03:24:07 GMT From: P5S@PSUVMB.BITNET Subject: Re: Re: shadowtravel > It is also to some extent implied that shadow existed before Amber I'm not so sure of that. Although it's been a while since I read the books, the impression I got was that without Amber, which was basically a shadow of the Primal Pattern, no other shadows could exist. I thought that shadows were just distorted images of Amber, kind of like your own shadow if you stand in front of three or four lights at the same time. It's hard to determine the true image from this combination of shadows. Point is, if there was no Amber, there would be nothing to cast an image of shadow (except maybe the Courts?) and thus no shadow would or could exist without an Amber to cast it. I wish my argument was as crystal clear as yours, because I agree with every thing else you said. One more thing about Brand: could it be that it was true, once they had walked the Pattern they could just teleport anywhere? If it was, Brand was simply the only one who had complete control over his visualizing of shadow, others had not practiced enough. Or maybe he picked up some hints from Dworkin...? Philip Semanchuk P5S@PSUVMB ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Nov 86 1006-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #393 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 24 Nov 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 393 Today's Topics: Books - Brust (3 msgs) & Sentient Computers (17 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Nov 86 14:28:38 GMT From: osu-eddie!jac@rutgers.rutgers.edu (James Clausing) Subject: Re: Dying main characters (actually, Steven Brust) berry@solaria.UUCP (Berry Kercheval) writes: >In Steve Brust's YENDI, Vlad gets killed about a quarter of the way >through the book. This is interesting, since Vlad is the >first-person narrator... Speaking of Brust, I know he is out there somewhere (I remember a posting by him last spring sometime). Anyone out there (Mr. Brust?) heard anything on the third book in the Jhereg-Yendi series? I think I remember him saying that it was a prequel to the other two (I could be wrong). When will it be out? Jim Clausing CIS Department Ohio State University Columbus, OH 43210 jac@ohio-state.CSNET jac@ohio-state.ARPA jac@osu-eddie.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 22 Nov 86 00:20:44 GMT From: berry@solaria..ARPA (Berry Kercheval) Subject: Re: Dying main characters (actually, Steven Brust) jac@osu-eddie.UUCP (James Clausing) writes: >Speaking of Brust, I know he is out there somewhere (I remember a >posting by him last spring sometime). Anyone out there (Mr. >Brust?) heard anything on the third book in the Jhereg-Yendi >series? I think I remember him saying that it was a prequel to the >other two (I could be wrong). When will it be out? TECKLA should be out this month. It is very good, but is not a `prequel', but a sequel to JHEREG. Vlad is trying to figure out how to spend the 65,000 gold he got for offing Mellar, and Cawti is getting involved in a revolution. Vlad thinks the revolution is a *bad* idea and there is some tension... This is mostly explained in the cover blurb (at least on the prepublication flat I saw). THE SUN, MOON AND STARS, also by Steve, should be out early next year in a limited edition Steve is now a full time writer and has only intermittent access to the net, though he can be reached on BIX fairly regularly, where he is one of the moderators of the 'sf' conference. Berry Kercheval berry@s1-c.arpa mordor!berry ------------------------------ Date: 23 Nov 86 00:20:16 GMT From: hoptoad!laura@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton) Subject: Re: Dying main characters (actually, Steven Brust) berry@solaria.UUCP (Berry Kercheval) writes: >TECKLA should be out this month. No. sorry. It didn't go out as a December Ace release, but is supposed to go out as a January release. At least that is what *The Other Change of Hobbit* said yesterday. Try again the third week of January, they said. Grrrrrh! >Steve is now a full time writer and has only intermittent access to >the net, though he can be reached on BIX fairly regularly, where he >is one of the moderators of the 'sf' conference. But you can send him mail at hoptoad!starfire!brust. hoptoad talks to lll-crg, utzoo, ihnp4, sun and a bunch of other lesser known sites. hoptoad!starfire!brust@lll-crg.arpa should work for those of you that need an arpanet account. Laura Creighton ihnp4!hoptoad!laura utzoo!hoptoad!laura sun!hoptoad!laura toad@lll-crg.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 86 23:13:49 GMT From: makaiwi@cory.Berkeley.EDU (KHYRON the DESTROYER) Subject: Re: Canonnical List of Sentient Computer Novels My submission is actually a Trilogy of books packaged under the title of: The Minervian Experiment, by James P. Hogan (I hope) The stories involve several highly intelligent computer systems. Of course, these computers are products of an alien technology that has had *Millions* of years to develop their technology. As I recall, the computers are constructed using organic molecules rather than bulky silicon and such. The first computer has a name like Ergon (or something), and is 25 millions years old (actually more like 25 due to a long trip at .999999999999c). Later, we are introduced to Visar and Jevex. These systems are truly *awesome* in scale. Jevex is akin to Colossus raised to the 10th power. It exists as a hyper-spacially linked network on three or four planets. Visar is much larger (20 worlds) and is so fast that it can "mop the floor" with Jevex in less than a pico-second (give or take an order of magnitude). The best part of these systems is that they are capable of matching to an individuals "brain waves" (for lack of a better term), and can communicate directly with humans (and the aliens) via direct "mind-link". Since these three books are not specifically about these computer systems, I am not sure if they qualify. The systems are very prominent in the books. If I recall correctly, the books are: The Minervian Experiment, Gentle Giants of Ganymede, and Giants' Star. But don't quote me on it. (I loaned it to a friend, so I can't check the titles). makaiwi@cory.Berkeley.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 86 12:38:56 GMT From: jc3b21!larry@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Lawrence F. Strickland) Subject: Re: Canonical sentient computer list Has anyone mentioned the sentient computers that were stored with the memories/personality of humans (and others) in the HeeChee books? The one that comes to mind immediately is the computer referred to as 'Dead Men' on the CHON Food Factory ship. Lawrence F. Strickland larry@jc3b21 Dept. of Engineering Technology St. Petersburg Jr. College P.O. Box 13489 St. Petersburg, FL 33733 Phone: +1 813 341 4705 UUCP: ...akgua!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 86 19:28:39 -0500 From: Alexander J. Grossman <qu9j@vax2.ccs.cornell.edu> Cc: qu9j@vax2.ccs.cornell.edu Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels One of the best sentient computer novels I've read is "Colossus: The Forbin Project" by D.F. Jones. It was written in the 60's and was part of a trilogy. Alexander Grossman qu9j@cornella.bitnet qu9j@crnlvax2.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 20 Nov 86 03:26:45 GMT From: hull@glory.dec.com (Al Hull - resident at Ford Motor Credit From: 313-845-2817) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computers I still haven't seen mention of the novel "Ariel", by Jack M. Bickham. I have the story in paperback, published by TOR Books, first printing Oct. 85. Ariel is an AI computer that accidentally becomes sentient when the developers's son feeds massive amounts of data to the system, unknown to the father. The novel also has some industrial intrigue with Japanese companies, etc. Rating on a -4 to 4 scale: 2 Al Hull Digital Equipment Corp. Great Lakes Application Center Farmington Hills, MI. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 86 09:37 PST From: PUGH%CCX.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Sentient computers I'm sorry that the canonical list of sentient computer stories has been limited to novels, because a great many of the best sentient computer stories were of the short variety. Including the first and most classic short-short where they fired up the first sentient computer and asked it "Is there a God?" and the computer said, "There is now!" It was a one page story that I read LONG ago. Perhaps Jerry can enlighten us as to where. The point of all of this is that shorts should not be forgotten. Remember and read Larry Niven's Berserker story that appeared in Omni and later in Fred Saberhagen's Berserker Base collection, "A Teardrop Falls." We're talking serious downloads here. The entire Asimov robot series started out with an large sentient electronic brain that covered a whole floor. I forget which story it was, but I seem to recall a little kid asking it something that caused it to hang. After that we got the robots, which are technically sentient computers, but have also been arbitrarily excluded from this list. [ As an aside, why don't Asimov's robots use radio? The damn things are talking some "compressed speech" via air in Robots and Earth or whatever that muck I just read was called. Can't they even get original names? I think radio would be a logical precursor to telepathy. ] At any rate, please don't discriminate against the short stories. They contain more of the original ideas that have made SF what it is today than the novels. And short stories don't go "To be continued..." Jon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 86 15:40:55 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Sentient computers This probably doesn't count, but in Greg Bear's CORONA, there is a monitoring system which has the personalities of 6 Starfleet captains stored in it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1986 16:02 EST From: Dave Goldblatt <USERBH0U%CLVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computers A few more about sentient computers: Jack Chalker's Well of Souls series (5 books) and his Soul Rider series as well (although it's doubtful you could tell from ther first book, but the clues ARE there.. :-). Also G.C. Edmondson and C.M. Kotlan's "The Cunningham Equations" and "The Black Magician", which I just purchased today (and haven't read any of yet) are also supposed to have a sentient computer.. dg ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 86 15:58:26 GMT From: diku!khan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Klaus Hansen) Subject: Re: Re: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels I would suggest some or all of the following may fall into this category of books featuring sentient computers: Fred Saberhagen: Berserker's Planet Robert A. Heinlein: The moon is a harsh mistress Arthur C. Clarke: 2001 Piers Anthony: Split Infinity Piers Anthony: Mute Fred Hoyle: The message from Andromeda (?) A.E. van Vogt: The world of Null-A (??) D.F. Jones: Colossus and a detective novel maybe featuring a such computer (this is part of the mystery to be solved): Lou Cameron: Cybernia ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 86 00:39:20 GMT From: abbott@dean.Berkeley.EDU (+Mark Abbott) Subject: Sentient computers How about Azimov's "The Last Question". I read it many years ago as a teenager but it impressed me enough then that I still remember it now. Mark Abbott abbott@dean.BERKELEY.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 20 Nov 86 23:36:19 GMT From: utastro!ethan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ethan Vishniac) Subject: Re: Sentient computers There is a series of stories by (James?) Gilliland about a space colony called Rosinante. In the book there are a number of sentient computer characters. Evidently when built these machines are automatically property, but are quite often given their freedom upon the death of their owner. (The books implied that the probable alternative was a memory wipe.) A free computer is referred to as "Corporate" e.g. "Corporate Skakash" whose book "Meditations on Nothingness" is well on its way to being the state religion of Rosinante by the end of the series. The books also feature a number of cute ideas. My favorite is a terrorist squad referred to as "Contra Darwin" which assassinates biologists who cast doubt on scriptural truth. Ethan Vishniac {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU Department of Astronomy University of Texas ------------------------------ Date: 20 Nov 86 14:23:33 GMT From: druhi!bryan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (BryanJT) Subject: Re: Canonnical List of Sentient Computer Novels makaiwi@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP writes: > My submission is actually a Trilogy of book packaged under the > title of: > The Minervian Experiment, by James P. Hogan (I hope) > The first computer has a name like Ergon (or something), and is 25 > millions years old (actually more like 25 due to a long trip at > .999999999999c). ZORAC not Ergon. They are called "Inherit the Stars," "The Gentle Giants of Ganymede" and "Giants' Star". Two out of three ain't too bad. I've never seen this packaged as a trilogy. Is it one large book with the three books in it, or a boxed set of three books, or what? John T. Bryan AT&T Information Systems 12110 N. Pecos, #8C350 Denver, CO 80234 USENET: ...!ihnp4!druhi!bryan PHONE: (303) 538-5172 ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 86 17:38:03 GMT From: netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker) Subject: Re: Sentient computers ethan@utastro.UUCP (Ethan Vishniac) writes: >There is a series of stories by (James?) Gilliland about a space Alexis. He's a former Washington bureaucrat which is where a lot of the background comes from. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Dr. Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 ------------------------------ Date: Fri 21 Nov 86 07:20:12-PST From: MARK WROTH <W.WROTH@HAMLET.STANFORD.EDU> Subject: Sentient computers/recommendation Folllowing some of the recent discussion (which I picked up in the middle) on Net-SF-Lovers on sentient computers reminded me of _Valentina:_Soul_in_Sapphire_ by Joseph Delaney and Marc Stiegler. The premise is a self aware AI program (created by 'mutation' of a very large non-aware program in transmission between hosts) and some of the resulting fun and games. It's fairly well written, & worth reading if you like hard-sf with mindgames. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 86 19:23:27 GMT From: utastro!fritz@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Fritz Benedict) Subject: Re: Sentient computers From: Garrett Fitzgerald > This probably doesn't count, but in Greg Bear's CORONA, there is a > monitoring system which has the personalities of 6 Starfleet > captains stored in it. This probably doesn't count either, but Greg Bear's EON contains a computer with EVERYBODY'S personality stored in it! He must like that ploy. Fritz Benedict (512)471-4461x448 uucp: {...noao,ut-sally}!astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU!fritz arpa: fritz@ut-ngp snail: Astronomy, U of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 86 22:56:54 GMT From: gockel@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Anne Gockel) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels _Millenium_ by John Varley included a fairly powerful and basically sentient computer. The ending was somewhat corny, but you can't have everything. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Nov 86 20:41:10 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Sentient computers and mind-computer access (possible Subject: spoiler) > vnend@ukecc.UUCP (D. W. James) > Roger Zelazny's "24 Views of Mt. Fuji, by Hokusai" is not a novel > (it won the hugo in the novella cat.(I think it was novella, it > could have been a novellette)) does directly deal with direct > access. **** SPOILER WARNING **** (Hmmm... It is odd that I cannot even tell you what I'm spoiling without spoiling it. Well. You Have Been Warned, so:) If you really want a good Zelazny example, why not _Doorways_in_the_Sand_? It is a "surprise" revelation at the end of the novel that the whole thing has been about direct human-to-sentient-computer interface... or maybe that's direct sentient-computer-to-human interface? Worse, of course.... it can't even be put on a cannonical list of SCNs, because such would be a spoiler, but it is a REALLY GOOD, and REALLY CANNONICAL example of an SCN, sort of a cross between _Needle_ and _Neuromancer_, and so it really ought to be on the list, but... Sort of an almost-recursive Excedrin headache. Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 24 Nov 86 02:59:48 GMT From: ee162fck@sdcc7.ucsd.EDU (Jude Poole) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels (progress Subject: report) By far the best sentient computer novel I have ever come across is 'The two Faces of Tommorrow' by the best hard-sf writer around today, James P. Hogan. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Dec 86 0944-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #394 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 1 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 394 Today's Topics: Books - Barr & Brust (4 msgs) & Clarke & Dick & Effinger & Forward & Hogan (2 msgs) & Palmer & Shaw & Steakley & Van Vogt (2 msgs) & Story Request & Main Characters Dying (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Nov 86 9:38:55 EST From: "Daniel P. Dern" <ddern@ccb.bbn.com> Subject: More Books by Donal Barr ... My packrat memory tells me that Donald Barr, the sf writer, is actually/also Donald Barr Chidsey, the historian/historical writer. Try looking under this name -- probably (sigh) under "mainstream" (i.e., non-sf). This would explain the high density of political issues and rhetoric in SPACE RELATIONS, and why the climax is more societal than personal. daniel dern ddern@bbn.com (ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 27 Nov 86 02:00:25 GMT From: lsuc!jimomura@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jim Omura) Subject: Re: Dying main characters (actually, Steven Brust) Steve Brust's new book in the Yendi-Jhereg series should be out around January, depending on how you look at it. Steve said something about it being available earlier, but I don't recall exactly. If you think of January as the due date I don't think you'll be sorry. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 86 02:07 EDT From: Andrew Sigel <SIGEL%cs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET> Subject: Re: TECKLA by Steven Brust hoptoad!laura@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton) writes: >No. sorry. It didn't go out as a December Ace release, but is >supposed to go out as a January release. At least that is what >*The Other Change of Hobbit* said yesterday. Try again the third >week of January, they said. Grrrrrh! Try another store, then: TECKLA should be in the stores around December 20 given East Coast delivery schedules (the December Ace releases are already on the stands, and have been for over a week). Of course, with the holiday season, I wouldn't count on deliveries being as prompt as they might be. I don't think there's a single paperback house that doesn't get their books into stores in the month preceding the release date. Ace releases generally hit the stores in the third full week of the month BEFORE the official month of release. I'd check with TOCoH again; they should know better. And on the subject of Brust and Vlad, the fourth book, EASTERNER -- a prequel to YENDI which includes, among other things, the charming tour of Deathsgate Falls alluded to in the books already published -- had "two chapters and four pages" written as of Halloween weekend. Andrew Sigel ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 86 18:43:08 GMT From: berry@solaria..ARPA (Berry Kercheval) Subject: Re: Dying main characters In Steve Brust's YENDI, Vlad gets killed about a quarter of the way through the book. This is interesting, since Vlad is the first-person narrator... berry ------------------------------ Date: 24 Nov 86 19:15:19 GMT From: berry@solaria..ARPA (Berry Kercheval) Subject: Re: Deaths of main characters (YENDI) allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >berry@solaria.UUCP (Berry Kercheval) writes: >>In Steve Brust's YENDI, Vlad gets killed about a quarter of the >>way through the book. This is interesting, since Vlad is the >>first-person narrator... >That doesn't count; in a world where any dead person can be >revivified for five thousand gold (modulo getting your head chopped >off), death isn't *quite* as meaningful... True, but is DOES die! It's not quite as final, but still unpleasant. >Is he doing Vlad's trip to Deathsgate Falls? I'm *very* >interested. Steve tells me he is NOT doing the trip to Deathsgate Falls. Yet. *I'm* very interested too. And what about that giant jhereg? Anyway, the next book is TECKLA, which should be out this month, and the one after that (I am told) is EASTERNER. Further deponent saith not. Berry Kercheval berry@s1-c.arpa mordor!berry ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 86 19:57:14 GMT From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? mangoe@mimsy.UUCP writes: >Gene Ward Smith writes: >> Did "Rendezvous with Rama" really have reactionless drive? >"Rama" is really a strange example to bring up, [...]. Yes, as the >ship accelerates away one of the characters says "Well, there goes >Newton's Third Law." Yet few people have a problem with this-- and >even the characters in the book are amazed by this rewriting of >physics. Furthermore, it isn't really clear that a reactionless drive is being displayed here. The ship is quite close to the sun at that point, and could well be using some sort of field to interact with it. The fact that one of the characters in the book jumps to a conclusion about what is going on does not mean that the readers have to. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 24 Nov 86 15:44:31 GMT From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin) Subject: Re: Phillip K. Dick book search Gary Knight writes: >Does anyone know where (and how) I can pick up a copy of Philip K. >Dick's DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP? None of my local >bookstores have it in stock. Any leads appreciated. I'm probably stating the obvious here, but the paperback was re-published under the title BLADERUNNER when the film came out. The original title was, I think, mentioned in *very* small print! Hope this is of some help. Jim. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 86 16:12:16 cst From: Brett Slocum <hi-csc!slocum@umn-cs> Subject: Collection search Several months ago, a short story by George Alec Effinger called "All the Last Wars at Once" was mentioned. I have since lost track of what collections this story appears in. Could someone help out? Any of you bibliographers out there? jmb? Brett Slocum ARPA: hi-csc!slocum@UMN-CS.ARPA UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum ------------------------------ Date: 22 Nov 86 01:28:26 GMT From: reality1!james@rutgers.rutgers.edu (james) Subject: Good SF = possible SF ? What about Dragon's Egg by Robert Forward? Anyone care to comment on any one of a number of things he does here? I have in mind in particular his power generation system around Egg and the "elevator". James R. Van Artsdalen ...!ut-ngp!utastro!osi3b2!james ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 86 08:08:27 GMT From: ee161aba@sdcc18.ucsd.EDU (David L. Smith) Subject: Re: Another Example of "Science" Fiction gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) writes: >Since I am afraid people are sick of this "hard" sf discussion, I >will content myself by pointing out the fact that Hogan is another >good source for the claim that the "science" in so-called "hard" sf >is typically baloney. In fact, Hogan makes blunders so stupid that >he makes Niven seem like "Physics Review" by comparison. Would you be so kind as to enlighten us poor imbeciles who just read the books to enjoy them rather than to pick them apart as to which authors write to your specifications on scientific accuracy? Thanks in advance David L. Smith sdcsvax!sdcc18!ee161aba ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 86 18:02:49 GMT From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK> Subject: Hogan, etc. > From: gsmith@brahms (Gene Ward Smith) > Since I am afraid people are sick of this "hard" sf discussion, I > will content myself by pointing out the fact that Hogan is another > good source for the claim that the "science" in so-called "hard" > sf is typically baloney. In fact, Hogan makes blunders so stupid > that he makes Niven seem like "Physics Review" by comparison. I sometimes enjoy Hogan's stuff, but I generally find it a bit hard to take. (1) He often depends far too much on the "science". Then when it's painfully bogus, there's nothing else there. The long explanations don't help either since they're both unconvincing and boring. (2) Much of the "science" is reactionary. Hi-particles (the Genesis Machine), for example, are just a way to pretend that relativity and quantum mechanics never happened. (3) The political views of Hogan's heros are often questionable. Typically, they decide they're just the right people to decide everything for everyone else (e.g., Thrice Upon a Time). And Hogan, of course, tries to make them right: their enemies are shown to be irrational, foolish, or evil. (4) Except for token gestures, the Hogan universes are sexist. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Nov 86 04:58:18 GMT From: ncr-sd!matt@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Matt Costello) Subject: Re: Stupid Smart People and Palmer's Emergence gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) writes: > Before we again forget about Palmer's "Emergence", I think it >would be fun to analyize it from another point of view. [ >Describes the spontaneous mutation of "homo post hominem" in that >novel ] ... These are clearly all separate changes in the genetic >code, and some at least (the last one clearly) are not just minor >changes, but massive re-write jobs. It is quite obviously not >plausible to assume that this happened fortuitously. The clear >implication is that some unknown agency (I propose a black >monolith) has been deliberately tampering with human evolution. I don't recall any mention on the net of a more recent Palmer book called "Threshold". It also deals with extraordinary people. The main character is the only one we see but reference is made to at least one other. What has me terribly worried is the possibility that both "Emergence" and "Threshold" occur in the same universe. If so, there is an "unknown agency", (which is not a black monolith :-) clearly identified. Putting both books in the same universe should turn the sequel(s) into an absolute mess (worse than Asimov). I'm only assuming the sequels, but both books leave the possibility wide open. I've been fairly oblique to prevent any spoilers. Beware of followups to this article. I'd be very interested to hear what others think about the possibility of both "Emergence" and "Threshold" being in the same universe. Matt Costello matt@ncr-sd.SanDiego.NCR.com (not registered yet) {sdcsvax,dcdwest,ihnp4}!ncr-sd!matt ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 28-Nov-86 17:49:58-GMT From: RICK BLAKE (on Essex DEC-10) <rick%essex.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK> Subject: Dyson sphere world fortune!stirling@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Patrick Stirling) writes: >There's another book you might also love to hate (:-)), about a >Dyson sphere world. It's like Ringworld except it's a full sphere >around a sun. I'm afraid I can't remember its name or author >(anyone?). The world is found by accident at the beginning of the >book. This sounds like "Orbitsville" by Bob Shaw. There is also a sequel, "Orbitsville Departure", in which the reasons for its fabrication are revealed. Rick rick%essex@cs.ucl.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: 25 Nov 86 22:31:13 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Comparison of _Armor_ and _Starship_Troopers_ POSSIBLE SPOILERS! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED! rls@ihuxz.UUCP (r.l. schieve) writes: > "Armor" kept me glued to the book with what I think would be a > more realistic slant on human nature. Ghak! "Realistic slant on human nature"? You think a story about an architypical hero-figure is realistic? A story where soldiers are used and abused as badly as they were, yet where desertion and revolution is not a problem is realistic? Where a single man in a lightly armed exoskeleton takes on an entire starship and a passle of ground troops, and makes mincemeat out of 'em? And that's just off the top of my head! REALISTIC? Gimme a break! Part of the charm of the thing was that it was *NOT* realistic, it was a hero-myth. Now, you may (as I do) disagree with many of the fundamental assumptions and beliefs about the world spouted by the characters in ST, but the story was much more realistic than Armor, or so I believe. Or do you find government by retired military unbelievable? Is the fact that they try to indoctrinate high school students with the idea that this government is a Good Thing unbelievable? The fact that men would lay down their lives for "manifest destiny" in one form or another unbelievable? Just what is "unrealistic" here? G'wan! Kwicher kidd'n, ya crazy galoot! > I enjoyed and would recommend "Armor" to any science fiction > reader looking for something new (with much less moralizing). I > appreciate some of the posting and replies that provided > information about Steakley and I hope he continues to write > science fiction. Well, I soit'ny agree with the recommendation, and the hope for future SF from Steakley. But... uh... did you *REALLY* not think he was preaching? I mean, really! One of the main themes is the big, bad, military industrial complex chewing up cannon fodder and spitting it out... and he's not preaching? Whew! By contrast, while RAH preaches about manifest destiny, "expand or die", and laces the story with invalid social darwinism and other silly things in ST, I certainly don't think he preached any *more* than Steakley did in Armor. I suspect it is just that Rich agrees with Steakley and disagrees with Heinlein, and thus notices the pulpit pounding in the latter case but not the former. Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 24 Nov 86 19:05:32 GMT From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: Earth's one immortal man A couple of days ago I got into a discussion with someone about the "Weapon Shops of Isher" by A.E. VanGoght (sp?) and I was reminded about a mysterious character who was never explained. He was only called Earth's one immortal man or something like that. I believe it also said he founded the Weapon Shops. Was this character ever developed in any other book or was he just a plot cupon? Thanx ------------------------------ Date: 25 Nov 86 19:10:14 GMT From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) Subject: Re: Earth's one immortal man beach@msudoc.UUCP (Covert Beach) writes: > A couple of days ago I got into a discussion with someone about >the "Weapon Shops of Isher" by A.E. VanGoght (sp?) and I was >reminded about a mysterious character who was never explained. He >was only called Earth's one immortal man or something like that. I >believe it also said he founded the Weapon Shops. Was this >character ever developed in any other book or was he just a plot >cupon? The author is A E Van Vogt, and the theme is developed further in The Weapon Makers. From these books comes one of my favourite SF quotations: "The right to bear arms is the right to be free". ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 86 15:24 EST From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Story Query Title and author sought for a short story that to the best of my recollection appeared in Astounding in the late 1950s or early 1960s. Epigraph was the folk song _Samuel Hall_ ("For my name is Samuel Hall... and I hate you one and all ...) I think the topic was computer sabotage but I may have misremembered that (memory is the second thing to go with age. The first is ... ah ... oh, never mind.) Any pointers out there? Thanx, Earl (Boebert -at MIT-Multics) ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 86 14:24:40 GMT From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Dying main characters In _Camber the Heretic_, most of the main characters die well before the end of the book. Or do they? C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 86 20:50:44 GMT From: cbuxc!dim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Dennis McKiernan) Subject: Re: main characters dying In Dennis L. McKiernan's _Iron Tower Trilogy_, hell, *everybody* dies at the end, several of old age. Of course, in the main adventure only one _central_ character dies... And in _The Silver Call_... ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Dec 86 0950-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #395 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 1 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 395 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Time Travel (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Nov 86 12:01:53 EST From: nutto%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Andy Steinberg) Subject: No time travel theory? Having been a fan of sf since I was 10, I am now 19, I feel that I have seen literally hundreds of movies, TV shows, books, and comics concerning time travel. I was always very disappointed that very few of them had a practical knowledge of time traveling. There have been many different basic ways of doing it. Traveling through a black hole to emerge into our universe at a different time. But how would you avoid being crushed by infinite gravity? Traveling faster than the speed of light so you would go backwards in time. But to travel faster than the speed of light you would need infinite energy, which doesn't exist, and have to overcome entropy, which is again impossible. Somehow utilize tachyons, particles that travel faster than light, backwards in time instead of forewards, and must lose energy to speed up and gain energy to slow down. But tachyons are hypothetical particles that were discovered by a curious physicist who changed a sign in one of his equations from a + to a -. A friend of mine has another theory. The universe has four basic forces: 1. electricity 2. gravity 3. strong nuclear force 4. weak nuclear force. If infinite gravity would cause you to have infinite acceleration you go faster than light and hence backward in time. Why couldn't electricty have the same effect. Since the electric force is millions of times stronger than the gravitational force, a much smaller quantity of electricty would be needed to achieve time dilation. Of course here's the problem, how would you contain such an enormous electrical charge in a small area? The charge would rip apart the atoms in the area long before time dilation was reached. Does anyone else have some other suggestions? ------------------------------ Date: 20 Nov 86 08:02:52 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!boreas@rutgers.rutgers.edu (The Mad Tickle Monster) Subject: Re: A new twist on the time travel question cipher@mmm.UUCP (Andre Guirard) writes: >Suppose you suspected that at any moment you and everything on your >person might be catapulted into the past to sometime A.D. You >would get inoculated against all sorts of nasties, I suspect, and >in addition you would get together a little kit of things you would >not want to be without when you arrived and carry it with you >always. What I want to know is, what would that kit contain? Among other things, a toothbrush. Maybe two or three, even. Think about it -- it's REALLY painful to have a bad cavity, and even a hundred years ago, dentistry was done by the local blacksmith in many areas. In addition, some penicillin might be nice; although I'm not sure of its shelf life, if you didn't have need of it really soon, someone else you bump into might, and it could very well make someone wish to protect you for your help. Another very useful item would be a pistol with a little ammunition; it might get you out of trouble in the short term. In the long term, nothing you take back will help all that much, I think, as it will wear out or be used up over time; if you depend on something too much, running out will be deadly. Robert Heinlein mentioned this in one of his novels, where a group of high- school and college students are stranded for an indefinite time on another planet for their survival course final exam. The title escapes me, but it's around three AM here. . . . Michael A. Justice BITNet: cscj0ac@bostonu CSNET: boreas%bucsb@bu-cs UUCP: ....!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas ARPA: boreas@bucsb.bu.edu AT&T: (home:) 787-4189 (work1:) 353-2784 (work2:) 353-9063 ------------------------------ Date: Thu 20 Nov 86 14:37:20-EST From: LINDSAY@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: re: the time traveller's kit The challenge didn't specify WHERE I would be dumped. So, since more than half of the world is covered by water: take a liferaft ! (Actually, we should pack a spacesuit, reentry vehicle, and enough fuel to find the planet ... but enough.) Let us refine the question: I am to be dumped into a human-occupied territory, and I am told beforehand which one, and when. Well, now we get into cases. I could take some clotting factor to Rasputin and be the power behind the power behind the throne ? Hmm. A short life but a randy one! In most cultures, I'd do better to set up as a tattoo artist than as a doctor. Really, though, the first thing I would do, is to read up, and to start plastic-coating my notes. Perhaps microfiche, and a hand viewer ? I, for one, wouldn't care to have a major enterprise depending on my memory. (Say, bwana, does this nitroglycerine stuff mind being near the cookfire ? ) As for packing an Uzi ... gee, the bullets kinda get used up quickly. Maybe a nice swordproof Kevlar suit would last longer. Don Lindsay ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 86 20:27:22 GMT From: ttidca!hollombe@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jerry Hollombe) Subject: Re: A new twist on the time travel question cipher@mmm.UUCP (Andre Guirard) writes: >Suppose you suspected that at any moment you and everything on your >person might be catapulted into the past to sometime A.D. You >would get inoculated against all sorts of nasties, I suspect, and >in addition you would get together a little kit of things you would >not want to be without when you arrived and carry it with you >always. What I want to know is, what would that kit contain? Depends how you define "little" and whether I have to continue with my "normal" life while carrying it. Still (off the top of my head) ... A U.S. Marine survival manual. Flint, steel and tinder. Sewing needles (_Lots_ of these. Extremely valuable for trade.) Survival knife. Gold and gems, both in small pieces. Solar powered calculator (fanciest one I could find) Fresnel magnifier (at least 3" x 6") Clothing would be rugged, warm and layered. No zippers or snap buttons, but velcro is probably ok except on shoes/boots. I'd probably also study martial arts with emphasis on hand to hand combat, knives, staves, archery and misc. swords. Likewise, a course in blacksmithing or similar craft would be useful. Note that "sometime A.D." covers an enormous range of technology and cultures. Also, no mention is made of location. Up 'til about 500 years ago where I am now was mostly desert occupied by a few Native American tribes. Not much to work with there, though inventing the wheel might be useful. Likewise the plow, horse-collar, irrigation and crop rotation. It might behoove me to relocate to Europe, around the Mediterranean, if the trip back in time is known to leave my location unchanged. If the time is recent enough for a Patent Office to exist, try inventing the paperclip, stapler, or spray can. Jerry Hollombe Citicorp(+)TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 Santa Monica CA 90405 {philabs,randvax,trwrb}!ttidca!hollombe ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 86 10:32 EST From: OCONNOR DENNIS MICHAEL <OCONNORDM@ge-crd.arpa> Subject: What to take back in time IF your going back in time, take : 1. A raincoat 2. A snowmobile-ing suit 3. A bolt-action hunting rifle, w/ plenty of ammo 4. A telescopic sight for the rifle ( doubles as telescope ) 5. A stainless-steel knife that can be affixed as a bayonet 6. Two same-caliber revolvers, one long-barreled, one short, and ammo 7. A sawed-off double-barrel shotgun with plenty of ammo 8. A guide to edible plants, real herbal remedies, poisons 9. A first-aid kit plus plenty of really effective drugs : aspirin, morphine, penicillin, tetracyclene, amphetamines, barbituites, Tagamet 10. concentrated non-aerosol insect repellent 11. Paperback introductory textbooks/dictionaries on Latin, Ancient Greek, Sanskrit, Ancient Chinese... (The major ancient languages) 12. A dog trained to protect YOU, personally. ( Better would be to take a second person to watch your back ). 13. _Encyclopedia Britanica_ and _Van Nostrands Scientific Encyclopedia_ and whatever on microfilm in sturdy waterproof metal containers 14. A plastic fresnel lens to read the microfilm with (awkward but works ), and a small folding metal frame to hold it, the film, etc.. 15. Hi-test fishing line, piano wire and aramid rope, and fish hooks 16. A swiss-army-type knife and a diamond-dust-coated survival saw 17. The best motorcycle or crash helmet you can get 18. Timberland boots, a pair of sneakers, rugged clothing 19. A small amount of copper, silver, gold and diamonds. 20. A back-packing tent and sleeping bag. 21. An axe, plus a file anda stone for it and the knife in 4 22. A couple of rolls of Duct Tape. The IDEA is to take enough equipment to survive in the wild 'till you've got your bearings and learned the language. The tools are all simple, easy to maintain and ( possibly ) could be duplicated using local technology. Several items could be used as "trade items", like the drugs ( build yourself a rep as a healer ), the fishing line, and the copper through diamonds ( don't flash gold at poor people ). Then you use "your" ( EncBrit and VNSciEnc ) incredible knowledge to become a big success. Dennis O'Connor ------------------------------ Date: 20 Nov 86 18:26:00 GMT From: webb.applicon!webb@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: re: TIME TRAVEL Following is a non-exhaustive list of skills that I feel would provide a usable/saleable skill in the past: Physics Mechanical Engineering Higher Mathematics Basic Math/Reading/Writing History Chemistry Basic Electrical Theory Medicine Philosophy Forestry/Outdoor Survival Husbandry/Vetrinary Science Astronomy Musical Skills Anyone trained in any of the above could have a great impact on past society. Imagine the effect an Electrical or Mechanical Engineer could have: simple batteries, motors and machines that we take for granted would be quite a novelty back then, and not, I believe beyond the manufacturing technology of that era. However, even the most skilled of craftsmen cannot accomplish much without material resources to work with. It would be vitally important to find a patron; either someone famous in the 20th century for his work in the past (Newton, Galileo, Huygens, Pastuer, to name a few) or someone you could convince to invest money in you and your ideas. This might be quite difficult. Letters took months to travel between cities in those days, and there is the language barrier to contend with as well. Many of the great minds of that era did not speak English. The most pressing needs would be those of immediate survival. Food, shelter, cash, things of that nature. One can obtain these things legally or illegally - the first being safer but much slower considering the wage levels in the 1700's. For the first few days one might be able to depend upon the kindness of others, but the subject of a steady job would come up sooner or later. A person from this era is not really physically fit for heavy day labor of the type that employed so many people then. However, the clerical skills most 20th century men and women are far superior to those possessed by your average 17th-18th century laborer. As a result, there might be a position available in the court of a king or as an accountant or bookkeeper. Even the simple mechanical devices that we all take for granted now, and could easily diagram or reproduce (given resoures) could be worth something 200-300 years ago. A cheese grater, the concept of a chain-driven gear, the bicycle, a paper airplane, a ballon, all of these would be new, back then. Initial survival would be equally difficult for people of all professions, but those trained in scientific or technical fields, and well versed in the basics of said fields would have a better chance of climbing the ladder, of actually influencing the age they were dropped into. This is not to say that artists or writers or business people have no chance of doing so. Exclusive knowledge of a subject brings one power, and the technical fields, being more closely tied to the manipulation of the material world, bring power over it. Peter Webb. {allegra|decvax|mit_eddie|utzoo}!linus!raybed2!applicon!webb or {amd|bbncca|cbosgd|wjh12|ihnp4|yale}!ima!applicon!webb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 86 20:42:46 EST From: Castell%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Chip Subject: Messing up the past There are lots of hazards involved with travelling into the past. The classic problem is the good old grandfather paradox- what if you kill your own grandfather before he had any children. Then you wouldn't have been born to go back in time in the first place, etc. Doctor Who runs up against this a lot, but it gives an explanation of what would happen if you went back into your own past and met yourself- the time differential would short-circuit and there would be a thoroughly unpredictable release of energy- this was the crux of the story "Mawdryn Undead". Related to this is changing the course of history, which is given a different explanation in every sf plotline that deals with it. Then, of course, there are the hazards related to where you are. For example, I would give medieval Spain a wide berth, because the Spanish Inquisition would take one look at my Casio watch and start firing the ovens. Even if you were in appropriate period dress, and weren't carrying anything blatantly anachronistic, your accent and general manner would attract attention. All that aside, there are several periods of history I would like to visit. One of these is the ancient Mycenaean civilization, to see if the Trojan War really happened. Classical Greece and Rome are also high on my list. 10th-century Iceland comes to mind, as I've always liked the Icelandic sagas of the period, and also Elizabethan England, because I like Shakespeare. As far as making lots of money, one thing to do would be to put a large sum of money in a bank of the period that's still around in your own time, and go back to 1986 and collect the interest. Along the same lines is the idea of buying a lot of things that are priceless antiques now, and selling them for stratospheric prices when you get back to 1986. In the 1979 Doctor Who episode "City of Death", the main villain was an escaped Jagaroth pilot whose spaceship had exploded in Earth's distant past and split him into 6 fragments of himself, scattered across time. They were together trying to galvanise the human race into developing time travel so he could go back and stop the explosion. He raised the money (or tried to) for this by having his 15th-century self commision 6 copies of the Mona Lisa from Leonardo da Vinci, and hide them somewhere where his 1979 self could find them and sell them for millions of pounds. Douglas Adams co-wrote this story, in case you hadn't guessed. If you want to win royal favor and get yourself a knighthood or something like that, you could hire yourself out as a mercenary, using modern weapons like Uzis and grenades. Needless to say, you'd need to be rather circumspect about your fighting, but it could be done, and all of the SCA would be envious as hell. Happy time-travelling, Chip Olson, aka Castell@UMass. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Nov 86 16:21:47 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Time Travel (yes, again!) (actually Peter Burke) ewan@uw-june.UUCP (Ewan Tempero) writes: > Yes it's called "The Day the Universe changed" subtitled...I > forget exactly "A personal view of change"? or something like that > (I only see it each week:-). Anyway, Peter Burke is up to his > usual standards (slightly It's Jonathan Burke. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Dec 86 1000-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #396 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 1 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 396 Today's Topics: Books - King & Niven (7 msgs) & Story Request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Nov 86 03:38:33 MST From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley) Subject: IT by Stephen King One thing you gotta say for Steve King, he really is modest. Some writers think they're God's gift to the field of literature. King makes no such claims; he just wants to have fun. Here's what King said about his new novel IT (Viking, 1986; 1142pp): 'It's a real long book -- one you wouldn't want to drop on your foot.' (From LOCUS #309.) Although I damn near dropped IT on my foot several times, I did finish reading it and I enjoyed the experience. There's too much in the book, as you can guess by its page count, but King's fun shows up even on those extra pages. IT takes you for one hell of a ride and shows you some scenery you might have forgotten about and ought to consider a bit more -- your childhood. Back in 1958, seven children brought together by circumstance established a club called the Losers. Membership was determined by the simple fact that they all were victims, picked on by parents, older kids, fate. Alone they were no match for bullies; together they seemed to have a certain knack, an ability to complement each others' weaknesses, and in the summer of 1958 they took on the biggest bully of them all. All but one of them has forgotten the magic of their society, and in 1986 that one has discovered that the bully is still around and determined to have revenge. One by one he contacts the others, reminding them of a pact each of them had made, and each must confront the ugly knowledge that this bully was no ordinary playground tough, that this bully was not human... In order to defeat It, they must recall how it was that they attacked It as children, and as adults they are finding that thinking like a child is the most difficult task of all. A curious thing about IT is that at some deep level it has a theme in common with H P Lovecraft's mythos stories. The creature is something from beyond space and time, something completely alien which masquerades as the familiar. The difference in approach is striking, however: Lovecraft's protagonists always seem weak and ineffectual, and they always write and speak in a very ornate and formal prose; King's protagonists are common, vulgar, ordinary, and they seem to have a fighting chance against a monster infinitely bigger and nastier than they. In that sense, IT is an anti-Lovecraft novel... While I'm listing tributes, I should note that there are a few scenes that remind me of Ray Bradbury's classic SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES, a novel with a basic similarity of theme to IT. IT has taken a critical beating, and to a certain extent it deserves it. I believe Algis Budrys has described the novel as a grand failure. I'd prefer to portray it as a qualified success. There's definitely a problem with story gimmicks. The Tibetan ritual of Chued plays a major role in the plot, but it's introduced very casually, and the vague description of it early on is contradicted by its practice. The husband of one of the characters is elaborately drawn into the creature's web, and then is pretty much abandoned, despite the potential for suspense and crisis of character. The unexplained forgetfulness which afflicts all the characters is a very useful plot device which is too damn convenient. A rite of passage scene which forms part of a critical escape in 1958 turns out to be completely superfluous in 1986. I could describe several more plot contraptions of this sort (Henry's balls, the circle of seven or is it five?, the turtle, etc.) but you probably get the idea... I think the forgetting is the most obnoxious of these problems; when hundreds of people are killed in extremely gory ways, no one outside the protagonists' home town seems to notice and almost no one in the town remembers, and King provides no more than a trivial attempt to rationalize this. (It can be done; I fondly remember a novel by Phil Dick called THE COSMIC PUPPETS in which a man finds out that his home town never existed -- so he sets about creating it(!).) Where IT succeeds is where it needs to succeed: in its gut feeling for the difference between adults and children. Many novels turn on the transition of a character to maturity; King has completely and charmingly reversed this too-common device -- his characters must remember how to be children. I certainly was a Loser when I was a kid. I used to get beaten up on the playground on a regular basis, and I had a bunch of friends who were similarly low on the social ladder. We did silly things like play in the creek and investigate storm drains, just like King's kids. The cuss words in the vocabulary, the casual attitude toward getting dirty, the ease with which danger could be ignored, the melodramatic pitch of all events -- these all ring true. And most of all, as I think King says somewhere, you never seem to have friends like you had when you were a kid. These kids are friends. The authenticity of feeling is what makes this novel work for me; the plot could have even more McGuffins (and there are plenty!) but I'd still say I liked the book. Don't miss the inside joke on p. 549, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: 22 Nov 86 02:28:28 GMT From: desj@brahms (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? chiaraviglio@husc2.UUCP (lucius) writes: >One thing to remember is that just because a certain evolutionary >step is advantageous doesn't mean it will have already occurred. >[...] So, some things that have survival value are not around, >because they have not had time to evolve yet. [...] Such traits >will take a very long time to evolve, if they evolve at all. Which is exactly why it is completely implausible that they could evolve in a few hundred years because of a comparatively slight change in the environment, as Niven would have you believe. The point is that the lotteries do not add much to the already great survival value of such a trait. Moral? Add Niven to the long list of writers who don't understand evolution. David desJardins ------------------------------ Date: 22 Nov 86 05:51:28 GMT From: jhunix!ins_akaa@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? The error in "Ringworld" being referred to, I believe, is having the Earth turned the wrong way. It was corrected in later editions. (side note: I remember some TV news program a few years back had a graphics sequence which featured the Earth turning the wrong way. After complaints, it was corrected. Does anyone else remember this?) Kenneth Arromdee BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa ------------------------------ Date: 22 Nov 86 01:35:33 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Ringworld implausibilities Then of course, there's the superconducting cloth. Room-temperature super- conductors are barely plausible; but cloth??? Anything flexible enough to qualify as a "cloth" would be too thin to handle the trick where they (**SPOILER**) use a strip of cloth, one end in a lake and the other hanging over the Slaver sunflowers, to ``de-fang'' said sunflowers. BTW -- as far as the protectors go, I lump them in with the "down in flames" outline posted a few months ago; protectors, being in the center of the galaxy, might well be a danger to the tnuctip plan to take over the galaxy. (They would know the truth about the Core explosion.) As a result, they may well be only half-true... Brandon S. Allbery Tridelta Industries, Inc. 7350 Corporate Blvd. Mentor, Ohio 44060 +1 216 155 1080 HOME: 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 974 9210 CSNET: ncoast!allbery@Case ARPA: via relay.CS.NET UUCP: cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!{allbery,tdi2!brandon} ------------------------------ Date: 22 Nov 86 01:43:36 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: If you're going to argue stories, at least get your facts Subject: right! stirling@fortune.UUCP (Patrick Stirling) writes: >>We also discover that the puppeteers have been breeding for "luck" >>in humans and seem to have succeeded-- an idea which clearly makes >>no sense at all, because "luck", if it were an inheritable trait, >>would be the ultimate in survival value; hence it would already >>exist. > >How do you know it doesn't exist? Maybe we're extremely lucky. We >wouldn't notice it, being used to our natural luck-level. The point is that the puppeteers wouldn't be able to improve on the result of natural selection for luck without direct genetic surgery or somesuch. The technique of the Birthright Lottery wouldn't have any effect; anything selected for by that would have been selected for long ago by the cavemen who managed to avoid the leopard... >>In any case, the reasons given for the puppeteers belief in human >>"luck" make no sense, since a better explanation would be the >>secret use of human protectors in the human-Kzin wars. >But there are no human protectors, as I explained above. Another >Niven book, 'Protector' explains all about protectors, BTW. The book PROTECTOR very much specifies the existence of human protectors! What do you think happened to the native population of Home? Brandon S. Allbery Tridelta Industries, Inc. 7350 Corporate Blvd. Mentor, Ohio 44060 +1 216 155 1080 HOME: 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 974 9210 CSNET: ncoast!allbery@Case ARPA: via relay.CS.NET UUCP: cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!{allbery,tdi2!brandon} ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 86 16:22:13 GMT From: uokmax!rmtodd@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Richard Michael Todd) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare) writes: > invented one kind of bolonium (GP hulls) for "There Is A Tide" > (where "Neutron Star" (there was a story titled "There Is A Tide", but it's not the one under discussion). > the whole puzzle was "what can get through an impenetrable hull?") > he was stuck with it. He had to have stasis fields for "World of > Ptaavs" so then he was stuck with those (though it's not clear why > you can't make a hull out of stasis fields. Perhaps you can't > make one concave?) It seems to me that there would be severe problems with using stasis fields as a hull. Remember that anything inside a stasis field is slowed down by at least several thousand times, which would be rather inconvenient for an entire spaceship to have on all the time. You can't have just a hull in stasis and the inside of the ship in normal time because that would mean having two stasis field boundaries, on the inside and outside surfaces of the hull, and Niven clearly states that one stasis field cannot enclose another. Besides a stasis field lets nothing pass thru (except gravitons, apparently-- see "The Borderland of Sol") so even if you could make a hull for your ship from a stasis field you couldn't see where you're going. Remember, GP hulls are designed to let thru visible light. What you really need for a spaceship hull is one of Doc Smith's "zones of force" and a full 5th-order projector so you can look out thru it :-) (You think Niven's bad about implausible substances, look at the Skylark series.) Richard Todd USSnail:820 Annie Court,Norman OK 73069 UUCP: {allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!okstate!uokmax!rmtodd ------------------------------ Date: 23 Nov 86 05:58:45 GMT From: gsmith@brahms (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd) writes: >jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare) writes: >> He had to have stasis fields for "World of Ptaavs" so then he was >> stuck with those (though it's not clear why you can't make a hull >> out of stasis fields. Perhaps you can't make one concave?) >It seems to me that there would be severe problems with using >stasis fields as a hull. Remember that anything inside a stasis >field is slowed down by at least several thousand times, which >would be rather inconvenient for an entire spaceship to have on all >the time. You can't have just a hull in stasis and the inside of >the ship in normal time because that would mean having two stasis >field boundaries, on the inside and outside surfaces of the hull, >and Niven clearly states that one stasis field cannot enclose >another. Since other people have been responding to most of the rest of this debate, I can clean up the scraps by dealing with the stasis field stuff. You missed Jordan Kare's point about concavity. Niven never said the stasis field needs to be a convex region of space; and if it is not, then we can leave room for a door (and sensors) and have a really nifty cheap hull. And one could build the Ringworld much more easily. Anyway, if something is really going to be "hard" sf, it ought to explain things like how the stasis field connects to general relativity, etc. If you think about it you see problems that don't get addressed. >(You think Niven's bad about implausible substances, look at the >Skylark series.) Several people seem to think my point was that Niven is especially bad; in fact I am employing him as an example of what's typical. Doc Smith is of course much worse -- relativity? What's relativity? Gene Ward Smith UCB Math Dept Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: 24 Nov 86 18:55:53 GMT From: berry@solaria..ARPA (Berry Kercheval) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) writes: >Niven never said the stasis field needs to be a convex region of >space; Stasis fields do not need to be convex. Remember that in _WORLD OF PTAVVS_ the Slaver's suit had a stasis generator built into it. The Slaver (whose name I forget) was, if I am not mistaken, of generally humanoid form -- one head, two arms, two legs, a tail (well, mostly humanoid). I assert that therefore any reasonably fitting suit will have regions of negative curvature. How about making a spaceship hull by having a stasis field that folds in on itself (or is this what y'all meant?). Imagine the stasis field as a round lump of clay -- now remembery Topology 101 and continuously deform it into a hollow spaceship-shaped object. The 'interior' of the field is now the INSIDE of the walls. Now, closing the door is something of a problem, but a mere engineering detail. On the other hand, since a stasis field cannot enclose another, what happens when the hole in the spaceship-shaped object gets smaller and smaller? I think the differential equations describing the field must do something really grody at the cusp... Berry Kercheval berry@s1-c.arpa mordor!berry ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 86 09:40:40 PST (Wednesday) Subject: Teleportation and lost socks From: "Ira_Newman.ESCP8"@Xerox.COM Does anyone happen to remember the name of a short story printed in Analog or Azimov several years ago that explains the invention of teleportation by discovering why one sock of a pair gets lost in a washing machine. Ira Newman ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Dec 86 1027-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #397 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 1 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 397 Today's Topics: Books - Niven (6 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Nov 86 18:14:51 GMT From: sdcrdcf!markb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? Why not use the time speed-up field from one of the Gil the ARM stories inside the statis field? Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb ------------------------------ Date: 25 Nov 86 02:56:55 GMT From: jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd) writes: >jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare) writes: >> invented one kind of bolonium (GP hulls) for "There Is A Tide" >"Neutron Star" (there was a story titled "There Is A Tide", but >it's not the one under discussion). Quite correct. For some reason I remembered that the collection was _Neutron Star_ and thought the story had a different name. >It seems to me that there would be severe problems with using >stasis fields as a hull. Remember that anything inside a stasis >field is slowed down by at least several thousand times, which >would be rather inconvenient for an entire spaceship to have on all >the time. You can't have just a hull in stasis and the inside of >the ship in normal time because that would mean having two stasis >field boundaries, on the inside and outside surfaces of the hull, >and Niven clearly states that one stasis field cannot enclose >another. Besides a stasis field lets nothing pass thru (except >gravitons, apparently-- see "The Borderland of Sol") so even if you >could make a hull for your ship from a stasis field you couldn't >see where you're going. Remember, GP hulls are designed to let >thru visible light. Stasis fields are not necessarily spherical in Niven's books. The Sea Statue (_World of Ptaavs_) is a stasis field in the shape of a Thrint spacesuit. The variable sword (_Ringworld_ and, I believe, elsewhere) is a wire sheathed in a stasis field, such that it is arbitrarily stiff and will cut through things. If one can sheath a wire or a space suit in a stasis field, one can sheath a piece of steel plate, thereby creating one panel of an indestructable spaceship hull (presumably with the mounting holes already drilled in :-). It is possible that there are topological limitations (e.g., a stasis field must form a simply connected surface with no holes in it ... now what was that about mounting holes?) but topologically there is no difference between standing next to a stasis box and standing inside a "stasis-braced" hull, as long as there's at least a small spot NOT covered by stasis field (presumably the viewport or the airlock) so that the inner surface of the hull is not "enclosed" (in a formal, topological sense) by the outer surface. Referring again to the Sea Statue (which presumably had concave surfaces) and the variable sword (which had a stasis field which turned on and off without including the handle, the user, etc., and which could strike other variable swords without failing) there's nothing to prohibit building complex shapes, sheathing them in stasis fields, then attaching them to each other (no prohibition on one stasis field touching another), adding the viewports and other non-stasis parts, and using it for a spaceship hull -- or even forming a one-piece hull, leaving only enough room for the airlock (separately "stasis-braced") and some 1 micron holes for the fiber optic links between your exterior sensors, engines, etc. and the internal controls (who says you can't see where you're going?) You can, of course, invoke some other limitation, such as an arbitrary definition of "enclosed" (Stasis field A is too big to get out thru the hole in stasis field B? You could still make the interlocking-plate hull. Besides, how would field A know?). Maybe hyperspace engines only work when they can "see" almost all directions, or otherwise object to too much stasis field nearby. Perhaps stasis fields and hyperdrives are completely incompatible, although a) you could still switch your stasis-bracing on and off, and b) there's no suggestion in the books that, e.g, slaver stasis boxes cannot be brought unopened from star to star (I don't have "The Soft Weapon" handy, but don't they consider taking the box to the authorities unopened? Surely not at sublight speeds :-)) > What you really need for a spaceship hull is one of Doc Smith's >"zones of force" and a full 5th-order projector so you can look out >thru it :-) (You think Niven's bad about implausible substances, >look at the Skylark series.) Too true. At least Niven DOES think about these things, usually quite extensively (see "Theory and Practice of Teleportation" for example, although he has the usual thermodynamic fallacy that things get colder if you teleport them uphill (which would make a dandy perpetual motion machine...)). All too many authors don't. Jordin Kare jtk@mordor.UUCP jtk@s1-C.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 24 Nov 86 02:51:41 GMT From: ukecc!vnend@rutgers.rutgers.edu (D. W. James) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? (Ringworld) ucbvax!brahms!gsmith (Gene Ward Smith) writes: > Since "Ringworld" is a good example of the "hard" sf genre, it >might be instructive to take a look at the various impossible and >illogical things which we find in it. The ship has a GP hull, >which means it is made out of Very Hard Stuff #1. They find a >Ringworld made out of Very Hard Stuff #2. As if two completely >different kinds of VHS were not enough, they could have simply used >the "stasis field" in either case--and why didn't they? Note, each instance of a very hard stuff (I'm a die-hard Beta fanatic, I refuse to use initials like VHS! :-)) the stuff was discovered by a different race. Puppeteers discovered the technology behind the GP hull, scrith was developed by Protectors, and the Stasis Field was independantly discovered by humanity, though we know that the Slavers had it(though it is very doubtful that they discovered it themselves). So the idea of there being different types of stuff isn't quite as bad as it seems. We have NO evidence at all that Protectors have anything like the Stasis field, else you could be sure that they would have used it to reinforce the structure of the Ringworld (they wouldn't have based it on it, they wanted something that would conduct heat!) But they could have used a Stasis grid to reinforce it to the point where a meteor like the one that caused the Fist of God mountain couldn't have gotten through. Also note that 'Lying Bastard', the ship they flew to Ringworld in, was equipped with a Stasis field for emergencies. So although it used a GP hull, it also used the Stasis Field. stirling@fortune.UUCP (Patrick Stirling) writes: > I don't see anything wrong with 2 kinds of VHS; for all we know, > they may have been different forms of the same basic stuff. The book seems to make it clear that the GP hull and scrith are two VERY different things. GP hulls reflect everything but visible light and gravity; scrith was a superconductor (at least for heat, remember the flashlight laser beam didn't even heat it), but it did stop 40% neutrinos, and that stumped EVERYBODY. Ergo, different stuff. chiaraviglio@husc2.UUCP (lucius) writes: >You can enclose things in the stasis field and thus protect them, >but by definition time comes nearly to a halt for all things inside >the stasis field -- sometimes useful but not always what you want. >And you can't make a wall all the way around your hull out of >stasis fields by having an inner field that negates the >time-stopping effect of the outer one because, as explained in ><World of Ptavvs>, some fundamental law of physics (as presented by >the book) makes it impossible to have one stasis field inside >another. First, not all stasis fields are equal. As you noted, in world of Ptavvs we have an example of humanity's first working stasis field. The scientist who is researching it says that it slows down time a lot (Sorry, I don't remember the exact ratio), but that his doesn't stop time. He does say (correctly) that perhaps the Thrint's field does, and of course all the fields we see later do stop time completely. But they don't have to. But this is a trivial point. You COULD build a ship with a MOSTLY stasis field hull, simply by enclosing a non-conductive material inside a conducting shell, something like: cccccccccccccccc cnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnc cncccccccccccccccc cnc v v is a viewport/hatch cnc c cncccccccccccccccnc cnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnc ccccccccccccccc where c is conductive and n isn't Sorry about the crude artwork, I hope you get the idea. Of course you still have a weakspot, but the rest of your ship is perfectly safe. Of course, you still have the problem of leaving openings for sensors and drives... But it could be done. If you really wanted to. stirling@fortune.UUCP (Patrick Stirling) writes: > I agree with your parenthetical comment, but evolution is hotly > contested even now, and is not perfectly understood, and is a > THEORY. I don't think you can call the Protectors a major error. > There's no illogical contradiction, a reasonable explanation is > that the protector world is like ours, and when humans arrived > here (with protectors), we eliminated all competition, and the > primates already here never developed into "native" humans. The > protectors then died out, because their staple food won't grow > here. Particularly since the evidence that Protectors built Ringworld didn't come to light until Ringworld Engineers came out. The arguement against evolution is spurious and not well thought out, but the answering argument below has problems of its own. chiaraviglio@husc2.UUCP (lucius) writes: >I have news for you. It is now essentially proven that humans >evolved from lower primates which in turn evolved from lower forms >of life, by the science of Molecular Biology. Examination of DNA >sequence homology, among other things, allows one to distinguish >between convergent evolution and divergent evolution -- in the >latter case you get much more homology than in the former, since >evolution consists mainly of modification of what's already there. >For example, if we hadn't evolved from something close to >chimpanzees, we wouldn't have ~98% DNA sequence homology to them -- >for this to happen on another world by convergent evolution would >be exceedingly improbable. And we have lesser but still impressive >DNA sequence homologies to other, more distantly-related organisms. Oh really?? I know a few Molecular Biologist who would be interested to hear that. While DNA comparison is exciting, it isn't the panacia you seem to think it is, and has its challengers. But even granting its validity does not solve our problems. You see there was this Slaver empire about a billion years ago. We know (from <World of Patvvs>) that Earth was once a slaver food planet. And we also know that Slavers controlled most if not all of the galaxy. It is possible, you can even say likely, that they introduced a certain microbial heritage to a large number of habitable planets through out the galaxy, from which both humans and Protectors could have emerged. And if breeder stage Protectors DID evolve into our hominid branch, they could have diverged into both humans and chimpanzees. The other DNA similarities that we share with the rest of the planet could come from a more distant source, the Slavers, with a reinforcement by the Protectors. That was a slow boat that the protectors arrived on, they brought a working ecology with them. They would likely introduce a number of thier own species to the Earth along with themselves. So the DNA record is a lot more muddled than it could be to make it usable. And who says that it NEEDS to be that direct a connection! It's a fun (and good) book. It has other more obvious flaws, no one has mentioned the really BIG ones. But then you have to think a little to see 'em. And NONE of this answers my original question. I've seen one posting about a problem with rings that I still need to check out. Other than this it's all been fluff. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Nov 86 07:13:57 GMT From: hutch@volkstation.gwd.tek.com (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: If you're going to argue stories, at least get your facts Subject: right! allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >The point is that the puppeteers wouldn't be able to improve on the >result of natural selection for luck without direct genetic surgery >or somesuch. The technique of the Birthright Lottery wouldn't have >any effect; anything selected for by that would have been selected >for long ago by the cavemen who managed to avoid the leopard... Ever breed animals to enhance a pre-existing trait? It works in significantly less time than evolutionary processes do. You end up with extremely inbred animals with exactly the traits you were selecting for. The lottery was not the only method of breeding-coercion used. Furthermore, since the idea of "luck" destroys linear causality, you have to deal with the fact which Louis Wu used to drive the Hindmost (or was it Nessus?) catatonic for a while: the puppeteers were only the tools of the incredible LUCK of the n-th generation result of the breeding program. They exist because it would be tremendously UNLUCKY for them not to exist. Evolution is a probabilistic process. We're talking here about a trait that feeds back on that probability. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 86 17:33:25 EST From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: breeding for "luck" GWS states that luck is sufficiently obvious a survival trait that we should have it already. Perhaps we do---at some unnoticeably low level (or some level sufficiently even that it's not readily observable). This is true of most survival traits, since without a reasonable assortment of them a species doesn't survive at all. If you wish to develop one particular trait in a plant or animal species, you have to breed for it selectively, which is precisely what the birthright lotteries did. Niven's biology is often questionable (a local fan did a wonderful demolition of the notion of non-sentient Kzinti females, plus some branches on how it could happen from a plague rather than evolution), but breeding for luck seems plausible. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Nov 86 15:27:47 GMT From: druhi!bryan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (BryanJT) Subject: Re: Ringworld implausibilities allbery@ncoast.UUCP writes: > Then of course, there's the superconducting cloth. > Room-temperature super- conductors are barely plausible; but > cloth??? Anything flexible enough to qualify as a "cloth" would > be too thin to handle the trick where they use a strip of cloth, > one end in a lake and the other hanging over the Slaver > sunflowers, to ``de-fang'' said sunflowers. Sorry, but it was superconducting *wire* that they used in this case, although the floating platform thingee was wrapped in superconducting cloth. That wire wouldn't have to be any stronger than a kite-string, really; the platform was set to hover at some altitude so the string was only to keep it from drifting away on the wind. What's wrong with the idea of making superconducting material in wires and then weaving the wires into cloth, anyway? John T. Bryan AT&T Information Systems 12110 N. Pecos, #8C350 Denver, CO 80234 USENET: ...!ihnp4!druhi!bryan PHONE: (303) 538-5172 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Dec 86 0758-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #398 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 2 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 398 Today's Topics: Books - Adams (7 msgs) & Niven (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Nov 86 10:27:29 EST From: "Morris M. Keesan" <keesan@cci.bbn.com> Subject: Douglas Adams and biscuits Cc: rms.g.jon%oz@mc.lcs.mit.edu In SFL 11:387, Jon Drukman writes >One final note: the story that Arthur tells Fenchurch in _So >Long..._ about the biscuits (he's eating someone else's...) was >told to me (and several hundred others) at an MIT lecture a few >years back by Adams himself - BEFORE the book was written. It >really happened to him in real life! Unfortunately, the "Packet of Biscuits" story is an urban legend. Jan Harold Brunvand reports it in "The Choking Doberman" [pp. 191-193 in the W.W.Norton paperback edition]. He cites "a summary of three printed versions from British mass media sources of 1972-74 as given by A. W. Smith in _Folklore_ (Summer, 1975)." There is also an Irish version, as well as one reported by English folklorist Venetia Newall in 1980 as being common around Wolverhampton "for several years". In all versions reported by Brunvand, the other traveller is an immigrant and/or member of a racial minority (e.g. Pakistani/West Indian/African/unspecified black). In any case, unless there's evidence that Douglas Adams has been telling this story since before 1972, it appears that he's simply taken the unusual step of attributing an urban legend to his own experience rather than to the usual "friend-of-a-friend". ------------------------------ Date: 20 Nov 86 16:38:21 GMT From: hoptoad!laura@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton) Subject: Re: Douglas Adams and biscuits keesan@cci.bbn.com writes: > In any case, unless there's evidence that Douglas Adams has >been telling this story since before 1972, it appears that he's >simply taken the unusual step of attributing an urban legend to his >own experience rather than to the usual "friend-of-a-friend". Just because something is an ``urban myth'' doesn't mean that it doesn't happen to somebody. For instance -- the ``poodle in the microwave'' story is an urban myth that dates back to before 1972. But that was about the year when my aunt, a veterinary surgeon, got to see a real cooked kitten. We all sat and wondered about it for a while. Was the elderly gentleman really so stupid that he comitted this mistake? Did he m-wave his kitten to see what would happen? Did he want to duplicate the myth he had already heard? Did his kitten die of heat prostration due to being left in an over-hot car, and he wanted to hide what he thought was his negligence? Was he taking strange drugs that night? We never found out. And my aunt has never seen another cooked kitten. But at a big veterinarian conference, she was once able to find a man who has seen one in his practice as well. And he is still wondering, too. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 86 22:15:25 GMT From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy >How popular is Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? > >What does everyone who knows about it, think about it? Let me note right off that I am familiar only with the books, not any of the TV or radio versions. I found the first book to be incredibly overdone satire. Each event was obvious, inevitable, and presented so as to hit the reader over the head with the *point*. On the other hand, I found the sequels quite good. Adams lightens up, just has fun with the reader. The latest, _So_Long_and_Thanks_for_all_the_Fish, seems to me to be backsliding a bit, but it is still pretty good. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 86 14:21:42 EST From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: HHG criticism? and dates >From: 6080626@PUCC.BITNET (Adam Barr) >bph_cwjb@jhunix.UUCP (William J. Bogstad) writes: >> I have read 2 or 3 of the books in the Hitchhiker's Guide >>series and I really can't understand why people get excited about >>them. Sure, some of the ideas are cute, but that really isn't >>enough for me to give something a rave review. There are many >>other books I would reccomend first. Recommend for what? As SF, probably not---but Adams isn't an SF writer. I wouldn't recommend this in the same breath as Wilhelm, or the Pleistocene Saga, or some early Heinlein, or some Anderson or Cherryh (that should be broad enough to get everybody questioning \my/ taste); I'd be hesitant about recommending it to anyone I don't know because senses of humor cause endless arguments. >Yes, let's not go overboard. The hitchhiker's books have some great >lines, but like most cult things are not very good when analyzed >critically. Just what are you trying to analyze critically? HHG is English \humor/ (humour?), in the direct line that runs from W. S. Gilbert through the Goon Shows to Monty Python (stopping by BEDAZZLED and THE BED-SITTING ROOM, both of which are excellent ]fantasy[). The fact that there is a cult around HHG in this country is deplorable. Analogies to BUCKAROO BANZAI are feeble at best, if only because BB was a sendup of everything from the mediocre to the truly dreadful, where HHG is original (albeit frequently satirical, e.g. the shoe section comes from Adams' personal frustration at being unable to find a wearable pair of shoes in a part of London that was riddled with shoe shops). Humour (as opposed to, say, Benny Hill) is usually witty as well as directly funny, where American humor tends to go for the cheap shots. Accordingly, many people brought up strictly on humor tend not to appreciate humour. I won't argue with such types any more than I argue with Wolfe fans (although I'd point out to any Wolfe fans horrified at this analogy that there are interesting similarities: both depend on a fountain of ideas and a somewhat cockeyed view of the world. The difference perhaps is that Wolfe is deliberately oblique as a way of compressing more into a book, while humour is oblique because the world seen straight-on is so appalling.) > Realistically, the books are very stupid. You can tell that >they are very stupid because it is impossible to find anything good >about them when you are trying to explain to a friend what is so >great about them. See above arguments concerning taste. Also note that any joke can be told in a way that makes it look stupid. On the other hand, don't you know some local best-seller equivalent to WHERE GOD WENT WRONG, SOME MORE OF GOD'S GREATEST MISTAKES, and WHO IS THIS 'GOD' PERSON ANYWAY? Would you be interested in 53 MORE THINGS TO DO IN ZERO-GRAVITY? Do you want a finite improbability generator to break the ice at parties (or do you think that's a good way to get yourself uninvited from parties)? Haven't you wished that some of those manuals on your desk said "Don't Panic" on the cover (or would that just make you more likely to panic)? All of these seem obvious---once somebody has thought of them. It's arguable that the outpouring of ideas in HHG is just as sense-of-wondrous as any universe-spanning adventure, the difference being that HHG is not about the ultimate adventurers but about the everyday people. A note on dates: the book of original radio scripts states that the first series of 6 episodes began airing on 8 March 1978; the 7th episode was first aired on 24 December 1978; and the last 5 episodes were scheduled to run on successive nights starting 21 January 1980. The set of twelve was run in Boston twice in a row on successive Mondays, starting in late March 1981. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Nov 86 21:08:23 GMT From: udenva!showard@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Steve "Blore" Howard) Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy Hugh_W_Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM writes: >As far as I can tell, the mice commissioned the Magratheans to >recreate Earth MkII from the original plans. (Magrathea was 'woken >up' to do this as a special job - they had mothballed themselves on >an index-linked basis "Until the galaxy is once again rich enough >to afford our services"). Slartibartfast explains all this (how >MkI was destroyed by the Vogons shortly before completion of the >Great Hack (sorry, Program), "I do the fjords, you know, the >crinkly bits round the edges. I think they give such a baroque >feel to a continent" etc). Except that on the Earth Mark II they gave him Africa to do. He still wanted to use fjords, but they didn't think they were equatorial enough. >And where does the phrase "Dent, as in the Late Dent Arthur Dent" >come from? ("It's a kind of threat. I don't use them much myself, >but I'm told they can be very effective"). When Arthur introduces himself to Slartibartfast he says "Dent. Arthur Dent." Slartibartfast from then on calls him "Dent Arthur Dent." Slartibartfast tells him to hurry or he'll be late. Arthur asks late for what? Sbf replies "Late, as in the late Arthur Dent." Steve Howard {hplabs, seismo}!hao!udenva!showard {boulder, cires, ucbvax!nbires, cisden}!udenva!showard ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 86 02:40:54 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: HHGttG: why is it great? 6080626@PUCC.BITNET (Adam Barr) writes: >Realistically, the books are very stupid. You can tell that they >are very stupid because it is impossible to find anything good >about them when you are trying to explain to a friend what is so >great about them. (Sigh.) I can tell you EXACTLY why they are so popular: they are the best SPOOF on the whole S-F genre ever written. (I have yet to experience the radio series; if anyone knows where in Cleveland one can get a recording of it, PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!!) As such, they have no reason to be consistent, intelligent, etc. Also, as such, they aren't what you give someone to introduce them to science fiction. (Do you introduce someone to the world of J. R. R. Tolkien by giving them a copy of the National Lampoon's BORED OF THE RINGS? For that matter, do you expect *that* to be ``great literature''?) Don't insist on evaluating every book by the SAME criteria. HHGttG wasn't written to be great literature; you're wasting your time if you're trying to justify it according to those rules. Brandon S. Allbery Tridelta Industries, Inc. 7350 Corporate Blvd. Mentor, Ohio 44060 +1 216 155 1080 HOME: 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 974 9210 CSNET: ncoast!allbery@Case ARPA: via relay.CS.NET UUCP: cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!{allbery,tdi2!brandon} ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 86 05:25:41 GMT From: sphinx.UChicago!tra4@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jonathan H. Traum) Subject: Re: inexial discontinuity From: nutto%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Andy Steinberg) >As for when Zaphod got his third arm and second head the third arm >is explained early in the first book of the trilogy. When Zaphod >was traveling to the island in the hover-bubble it was said "and >his third arm which he had had recently fitted under his second >arm" so he did not get the third arm until after his visit to >Earth. As for the second head in the first chapter of the second >book Zaphod had to contact his grandfather for help, his >grandfather was described as having two heads. great grandfather >So I guess the explanation of the birdcage on his shoulder is a >good one. Ahh, but don't forget that his great grandfather is Zaphod Beeblebrox IV (that accident with a contraceptive and a time machine, remember?), so the reason that Zaphod's great grandfather has two heads could be because Zaphod had the second head added (and perhaps the corresponding genetic surgery as well!) By the way, I pity those of you who have never heard the radio version (the BEST version! my opinion only, etc., etc.) and therefore don't know who the Haguenenons (sp?) are, or how the Shoe Event Horizon works!! Jonathan Traum tra4@sphinx.uchicago.bitnet ...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!tra4 ------------------------------ Date: 25 Nov 86 23:24:17 GMT From: hoptoad!laura@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton) Subject: Re: If you're going to argue stories, at least get your facts Subject: right! >The point is that the puppeteers wouldn't be able to improve on the >result of natural selection for luck without direct genetic surgery >or somesuch. The technique of the Birthright Lottery wouldn't have >any effect; anything selected for by that would have been selected >for long ago by the cavemen who managed to avoid the leopard... So maybe it has been, and humans are already very, very lucky. The Birthrite Lotteries just provide a convenient handle for recognising exceptionallly lucky humans. Laura Creighton ihnp4!hoptoad!laura utzoo!hoptoad!laura sun!hoptoad!laura toad@lll-crg.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 86 16:35:19 GMT From: nike!kaufman@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Ringworld implausibilities ***SPOILERS!!!*** (Nothing most of you ain't heard before, 'tho,...) allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >Then of course, there's the superconducting cloth. >Room-temperature superconductors are barely plausible; but >cloth??? Anything flexible enough to qualify as a "cloth" would be >too thin to handle the trick where they use a strip of cloth, one >end in a lake and the other hanging over the Slaver sunflowers, to >``de-fang'' said sunflowers. Waitaminit. Wasn't that a molecule-chain they used, as in Ye Olde Sinclair Molecule Chain--the strongest (at least, as of Gil Hamilton's time) piece of thread known to man--not a superconductor? As I remember it, the 'chain was what held the night-making plates together. (For a while.) >BTW -- as far as the protectors go, I lump them in with the "down >in flames" outline posted a few months ago; protectors, being in >the center of the galaxy, might well be a danger to the tnuctip >plan to take over the galaxy. (They would know the truth about the >Core explosion.) As a result, they may well be only half-true... If you mean "half-true" as "may not exist", I can tell you they *do* exist. (Just ask Jack Brannan (sp?).) If you mean "may not be our ancestors",... well, there's a lot of people fighting for that position: the Protectors, the Ptaavs (or Tnuctipin, whichever), etc. Kinda makes you wonder why they're all falling over each other to claim us as their decendants,...;-) "Down in flames" they almost certainly are,because of the aforementioned Core reaction (if you don't count the inhabitants of the Ringworld or Earth). (BTW, does anyone know more about this "tnuctip plan" than I do? I wasn't even sure these guys were still around,...) seismo!nike!orion!kaufman ------------------------------ Date: 27 Nov 86 04:41:28 GMT From: ccjcl@bu-cs.BU.EDU (John C. Lotz) Subject: Re: Ringworld implausibilities kaufman@nike.uucp (Bill Kaufman) writes: > ***SPOILERS!!!*** (Nothing most of you ain't heard before, 'tho,...) >>allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >>Then of course, there's the superconducting cloth. >>Room-temperature superconductors are barely plausible; but >>cloth??? Anything flexible enough to qualify as a "cloth" would >>be too thin to handle the trick where they use a strip of cloth, >>one end in a lake and the other hanging over the Slaver >>sunflowers, to ``de-fang'' said sunflowers. > Waitaminit. Wasn't that a molecule-chain they used, as in Ye Olde > Sinclair Molecule Chain--the strongest (at least, as of Gil > Hamilton's time) piece of thread known to man--not a > superconuctor? As I remember it, the 'chain was what held the > night-making plates together. (For a while.) I looked this up. They used both superconductor wire, and molecule chain. The superconductor was needed to pass the heat. Louis Wu used the molecule chain to hold the plate once it reached altitude (he wasn't sure how strong the superconductor wire was). jcl ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 2 Dec 86 0811-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #399 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Dec 86 0811-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #399 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 2 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 399 Today's Topics: Books - Sentient Computers (7 msgs), Miscellaneous - Time Travel (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Nov 86 04:39:38 GMT From: ut-ngp!gknight@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Gary Knight) Subject: Terminate submissions to sentient computer novel list! I agree! I've got enough stuff to keep me busy through the holidays! Hold off on further submissions until I get the first draft worked up and posted to the net . . . then we can have an amendment process. Okay? Thanks, Gary Knight 3604 Pinnacle Road, Austin, TX 78746 (512/328-2480). Biopsychology Program, Univ. of Texas at Austin. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Nov 86 02:44:55 GMT From: gt-stratus!chen@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ray Chen) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computers With respect to Ariel: On a -4 to +4 scale: -4 The only AI/sentient computer book I remember reading that was worse than this was The Adolesence of P-1 which was technically just as bad and had characters so stupid it made me want to cry. However, P-1 was written a long time ago when the Frankenstein method of generating sentient computers (lightning, massive influx of data, or some other strange improbable event) was accepted. Ariel has no such excuse. Mark it down as yet another book trying to cash in on computers and move on. If you want a reasonable look at how a sentient computer might be created and evolve, read The Two Faces of Tomorrow by James P. Hogan. Ray Chen chen@gatech.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 86 14:14:50 PST From: crash!mhughes@pnet01 (Mari Hughes) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #388/Sentient Computers Also long as we are listing books about sentient computers, don't forget "When Harlie Was One" about the computer Harlie. I particularly like the ending where ***SPOILER*** Harlie convinces his makers to make this new computer that will answer all their questions, and when they are too far committed to it to turn back, it is revealed that the computer is actually only useful to Harlie because by the time the answer is calculated, the questioner would be dead! (I guess they didn't have Cray's then). ***END SPOILER*** Of course, the ending does set things up for a sequel. Does anyone know if there was one? The book was written by David Gerrold and published by Ballantine Books. (David Gerrold also wrote some Star Trek books including The Trouble with Tribbles and The World of Star Trek). Also, some of you might have run into this book in its short story forms in Galaxy (Oracle for a White Rabbit, The GOD Machine and The Trouble with G.O.D.) If there IS a sequel, I would love to get my hands on it! ------------------------------ Date: 25 Nov 86 20:31:49 GMT From: amdahl!kim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kim DeVaughn) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels jpm@lanl.ARPA (Pat McGee) writes: > Kim DeVaughn mentioned that "The Mote in Gods Eye" had a sentient > computer. This does not match my memory. All I remember was that > everyone had pocked computers that could access lots of > information (complete library services, plus anything the user had > said while 'recording') Pat is absolutely correct, as are several others who sent me email pointing out the error of my ways ... seems I got the "Moties" mixed-up with Hogan's "Ganymeans" somewhere along the line. In atonement for this transgression, I offer another somewhat obscure "sentient computer novel": Vulcan's Hammer by Philip K. Dick kim UUCP: {sun,decwrl,hplabs,pyramid,ihnp4,seismo,oliveb}!amdahl!kim DDD: 408-746-8462 USPS: Amdahl Corp. M/S 249, 1250 E. Arques Av, Sunnyvale, CA 94086 CIS: 76535,25 ------------------------------ Date: 25 Nov 86 20:43:52 GMT From: osu-cgrg!brian@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brian Guenter) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels (progress Subject: report) Michaelmas by Algis Budrys ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 86 7:36:59 EST From: Joel B Levin <levin@cc2.bbn.com> Subject: Sentient computer short-short story From: PUGH%CCX.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA >a great many of the best sentient computer stories were of the >short variety. Including the first and most classic short-short >where they fired up the first sentient computer and asked it "Is >there a God?" and the computer said, "There is now!" It was a one >page story that I read LONG ago. <Bibliography isn't my business>, and my memory tends to leak; while I can't tell you the name of the book I saw it in (it was high school or earlier) I am quite sure it was written by Frederic Brown (of "Arena" and _Rogue_in_Space_ fame). A book of his short stories had a two page short short between each normal length short story and this was one of them (at the ribbon cutting and powering up ceremony for the latest and greatest don't-this-beat-all computer, they ask the question "Is there a God?". As a bolt of lightning fuses the power switch, a great voice replies . . .). JBL UUCP: {world}!bbnccv!levin or {world}!bbncca!levin ARPA: levin@bbn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 86 7:55:11 EST From: Victor The Mad Hacker Cericole <vcerico@apg-5> Subject: Sentient computer novels. Although the subject was not about the computer, Saberhagen's "Empire of (in?) the East" (or something to that effect). In the novel the great power that opposes the Evil Empire turns out to be a sentient computer. Got to read it again, I have forgotten to much of the story line to continue. Victor Cericole vcerico@apg-5.arpa vcerico@brl.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 23 Nov 86 04:33:18 GMT From: frog!sc@rutgers.rutgers.edu (STella Calvert) Subject: Time-Traveller's Toolkit cipher@mmm.UUCP (Andre Guirard) writes: >Suppose you suspected that at any moment you and everything on your >person might be catapulted into the past to sometime A.D. You >would get inoculated against all sorts of nasties, I suspect, and >in addition you would get together a little kit of things you would >not want to be without when you arrived and carry it with you >always. What I want to know is, what would that kit contain? At least four spare pairs of eyeglasses (plastic lenses, metal frames), a Merck manual, a space blanket, some diaphragms and condoms, a _large_ bottle of A-200, a copy of _The Book of the Law_ (really curious about what introducing _that_ earlier on would do to social evolution....), an assortment of antibiotics, my swiss army knife, a _good_ knife, a hand lens, enough vitamins to cushion my fall from megadoser to malnourished medieval (a two-weeks supply in decreasing dosages ought to do it), and a paperback copy of _The Way Things Work_. If there's still room in the daypack, some aspirin, ether, pocket calculator and spare batteries (more for magick than daily use....), and, since I _cannot_ get to sleep without something to read, a copy of _Dhalgren_ (it worked for six months of hitchhiking without boring me, it would keep me sane till I learned the local writing or adapted.) Maybe a Bic lighter, just till I retrained myself at firebuilding? If it fits.... Wouldn't need it long, but if I got yanked out of the shower, I might want it _bad_. All this protected in ziplocs and bundled with rubber bands, since I would miss both.... Fastening this to my body at all times, as much gold chain as I'm willing to carry -- after all, it's better to be rich than poor, and if the sudden move came while I was showering, I'd really want the bag to come along, but be dry. And if I ended up in the colder parts of the world, I'd want that space blanket to be on top! I thought about a black powder pistol, Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, lots of other things, but I'm trying to keep the weight down to not _much_ worse than my current purse. Besides getting shots for every disease I could think of, I'd get caught up on dental work, have an appendectomy, and compile a list (preferably world-wide) for eclipses. Great question, Andre, looking forward to the other answers.... Stella Calvert Guest Account: {cybvax0|decvax}!frog!sc HASA Affiliation: S Division ------------------------------ Date: 23 Nov 86 15:16:58 GMT From: aicchi!dbb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Burch) Subject: Time travel survival kit. Well... I think that the following would be a good survival kit no matter where you are; 1. A copy of "Outdoor Survival Skills" by Tom Olsen. (I hope I got the title correct) This book begins with the premise that you have nothing but the clothes on your body, and must survive for an indefinite period of time. 2. A burning glass. Much easier than a fire bow. I know from experience! 3. A bowie knife. Thick enough blade to survive years of rough honing. 4. A stainless steel canteen. Until you kill something and tan the hide, you will need to be able to carry some water. Also, a stainless canteen can be used to boil water. Some other random thoughts. In lieu of glasses, you can take a thin tissue of any opaque material (charred rodent hide will do) and make a lone-ranger type mask. Put a few pinholes in it, and you will be able to see much better at least in bright light due to the pinhole camera effect. Try this with some aluminum foil if you don't believe me! If I were in a place where I did not understand the culture, I would get as far away from civilization as I could. People tend to be xenophobic, and I would not want to be the next guest at a witch stoning... David B. (Ben) Burch Analysts International Corp. Chicago Branch (ihnp4!aicchi!dbb) ------------------------------ Date: 22 Nov 86 20:55:47 GMT From: ulowell!rickheit@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Erich Rickheit) Subject: Re: A new twist on the time travel question boreas@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (The Mad Tickle Monster) writes: >cipher@mmm.UUCP (Andre Guirard) writes: >>Suppose you suspected that at any moment you and everything on >>your person might be catapulted into the past to sometime A.D. >>You would get inoculated against all sorts of nasties, I suspect, >>and in addition you would get together a little kit of things you >>would not want to be without when you arrived and carry it with >>you always. What I want to know is, what would that kit contain? Well, besides money/jewelry (preferably Au & Al) and a weapon, I would drag along a microfiched/microfilmed (whichever is smaller) copy of the Encyclopedia Brittannica and an appropriate reader. If I can rig one, the reader should be usable with natural or candlelight. There. Now I know: how to extract aluminum; how to make a generator; how to build batteries; at least _some_ of local history/customs (language is still a bitch) Erich Rickheit 85 Gershom Ave, #2 Lowell, MA 01854 UUCP: ...!wanginst!ulowell!rickheit ------------------------------ Date: 24 Nov 86 02:55:52 GMT From: ukecc!vnend@rutgers.rutgers.edu (D. W. James) Subject: Re: TIME TRAVEL For a good example of what it might be like, read "The Anubis Gates", by Tim Powers. In it an English Professor gets stranded in 19th Cen. London. He survives, though it is as much by luck as anything else. It is a good read anyway you look at it though. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Nov 86 13:51:57 EST From: Louis Steinberg <STEINBERG@RED.RUTGERS.EDU> Subject: time travel In all this discussion of how an unprepared time traveler could survive and/or make a fortune in the past, there's one point people seem to largely miss. Until quite recently in historical terms, your opportunities in life depended much more strongly on your social rank and connections than they do for us today. Even if you did have the technological knowledge to make a big advance, it would be quite possible that you would not be given the opportunity to put it into practice except in the role of advisor to some powerful personage (guild master, local noble, etc.). You would get few of the profits, have no control, and be in danger of being more or less dumped if your patron thought that you were no longer needed. You would probably find patrons much less excited by possible technological advances than you would expect, and you would find great reluctance of people to get involved in any way with a "stranger", i.e. someone they haven't grown up with and whose family they don't know. There would be some avenues open (e.g. the Church), but not nearly the freedom we would tend to expect. Lou Steinberg uucp: {harvard,seismo,ut-sally,sri-iu,ihnp4!packard}!topaz!steinber arpa: STEINBERG@RUTGERS.EDU.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 86 02:13:16 GMT From: frog!sc@rutgers.rutgers.edu (STella Calvert) Subject: Changing History PUGH%CCX.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA writes: >Now you have a time machine and a nice theory of time that states >you can go back, change things, and return to either future you >want (or visit both to see the differences). Now you get to >prepare and take a small stock of supplies with you. What would >you change? Firstly, I've always been curious about what would have happened if Alexander the Great had lived -- so, besides Craig Werner, I'd take whatever _he_ wanted. Appearing on the Road to Damascus and reprogramming Saul would also be most amusing -- laser, bull-horn, and the _Book of the Law_ should be about right. "Listen up, Saul -- killing xians has got to stop! Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." Might solve a lot of problems that would otherwise persist for dreary thousands of years. Clearing out the library at Alexandria and replacing the works that would be burnt the next day with fakes would be interesting (wouldn't change history unless I could figure some way of reinserting them -- like planting them in a cave I knew someone would enter soon....) >Me, I would like to go put the fear of God in the people in Salem. >Let's see them burn witches when an angel (complete with wings, >lights, horns, and a flying harness) drops down in front of the >church and tells them not too. Granted it's a bit dangerous, but >it could be fun! Ok, you're gonna get Salem (if the changes I make don't render it unnecessary) so I won't bother. But wear a kevlar suit and it wouldn't be very dangerous.... (I'd be willing to come along and cover you, if you like....) And _somehow_ (I haven't done the research, so I'm not sure what the best trick would be) I'd like to ensure that the anti-taxers won the Whiskey Rebellion. That might be enough right there. But just for the hell of it, let's grab Hitler, circumcise him, Nair his lip, and drop him in his own camps, before we change history so they don't happen. "But I'm the Fuehrer..." Right, Jew-Boy, go take a shower.... >Or how about arriving at Custer's last stand and trying to convince >and or fool him or the Indians into going the wrong way. Would >that make any difference? Yes -- but I'd change things in the other direction. Custer and Co. getting killed doesn't bother me the least little bit! >I would like to have stowed away on one of the later Apollo >missions. _I'd_ scuttle off to Tranquillity Base and implement my husband's suggestion. Erase Nixon's name from the plaque, and substitute [executive deleted]. Wouldn't _change_ a lot, but wouldn't it be _fun_! (Now do you know why I love wjr? Among other reasons....) STella Calvert Guest Account: {cybvax0|decvax}!frog!sc HASA Affiliation: S Division ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 86 08:55:15 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Re: Time Travel In Star Trek IV, Captain Kirk sells the glasses that Doctor McCoy gave him in Wrath of Khan to an antiques dealer. Spock says, "Weren't those a present from Doctor McCoy?" Kirk says, "And they will be again, that's the beauty of the thing!" Also, later, Scotty gives a formula to the person who history says invented it. The problem is, where did the formula and glasses come from? They're stuck in an infinite loop! ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Dec 86 0825-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #400 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 2 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 400 Today's Topics: Books - Feist & Van Vogt, Films - Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (2 msgs), Television - Ian Marter (2 msgs) & Jon Pertwee & Tripods, Miscellaneous - Star Trek Stamp & SF Drinks (2 msgs) & Advising the Military (2 msgs) & Misreading Literature & A Request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon 01 Dec 1986 16:57 CDT From: Steve Besalke <CUSLB%IECMICC.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> Subject: Riftwar....... Has anyone been reading the Riftwar Saga by Raymond E. Feist???? The titles of the books are as follows: Magician: Apprentice Magician: Master Silverthorn A Darkness at Sethanon - for sale January 15, 1987 (tenative) Please warn if you post any spoilers about Silverthorn for I have just started reading it. Also, mentioned earlier were the Chronicles of Amber. Where can I find them?? Steve Besalke ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 1986 00:47 EST (Tue) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> Subject: Earth's one immortal man He is Robert Hedrock, at least in "The Weapon Makers". His other names are mostly not given, although you do learn some interesting things in TWM...including his origin, the origin of the Empire and other fun stuff. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 86 08:18:25 EST From: Wes Miller <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA> Subject: Star Trek IV I was one of the millions who saw it this weekend. The plot is as stated in previous discussions, so I won't go into it, but I will say that IT IS WELL WORTH SEEING!! Even if you are not a fan of Star Trek it is a most entertaining film with emphasis on the characters (not just the leads either) and humor. The movie even makes its statement about preserving endangered species very well without the usual flags saying "author's message". The special effects were excellant and not overdone. It is by far the most entertaining of all the movies in the series. Wes Miller ------------------------------ Date: 1 December 1986 07:43:46 CST From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson) Subject: Star Trek IV (minor spolier) Pico review: EXCELLENT MOVIE!!! No space battles, but lots more humor than in the previous Treks. Go see it! Question (minor spoiler): Why did the alien probe come to Earth in the first place? Carlo Samson U09862@uicvm.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 86 22:35:00 EST From: nutto%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Andy Steinberg) Subject: IAN MARTER DEAD I learned on November 6 that another talented actor and writer of Doctor Who has sadly passed away. Ian Marter, who played Harry Sullivan and wrote the novelizations of ARK IN SPACE, ENEMY OF THE WORLD, DOMINATORS, and several others, died on October 31. An autopsy will be performed soon. All our hearts and wishes go out to his loved ones. We'll miss you, Ian. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 86 16:07:32 EDT From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (John White) Subject: Ian Marter In response to a previous posting asking about the death of Mr. Ian Marter: According to Louise Jameson, speaking on November 16 at a convention here in Philadelphia, Ian Marter died in London on October 29th of a coronary. She mentioned it, having been reminded of the last time she had met with her associates from Dr Who - namely, at his funeral. He was working on another Target novelization (of _The Rescue_), which was very near completion, and which may be published anyway in its present form. As a writer and actor, he will be missed. John L WHITE@DREXELVM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 86 22:37:16 EST From: nutto%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Andy Steinberg) Subject: Jon Pertwee Cc: tmplee@dockmaster.arpa Also, Jon Pertwee was supposed to appear at a convention in Wakefield, MA on Halloween but was unable to make it because he had contracted hepatitis. We all send our hopes to him for a speedy recovery. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 86 14:06:28 EST From: drukman%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Jonathan S. Drukman) Subject: Tripods & Dr. Who & Michael Grade Michael Grade apparently axed Dr. Who for 18 months because he disagreed with A) the sudden increase in nasty violence, and B) Colin Baker's performance as The Doctor. Personally, I think Colin is a great Doctor, but I did find the rapid increase in violence in Season 22 pretty distressing - since when does the Doctor go around blasting people? Nutto@Umass says that the Tripods was "flawlessly acted" - not quite! And the second series is much better than the first, in all respects, however I feel that the transition to television lost a lot of important aspects that were present in the books, such as the incredibly tortuous interior of the Tripod City - in the book, it was a living hell and the author brought that across wonderfully. Now, in the show, you've not only got life being easier, but you've got a Disco/Bar for the slaves!!!! And they even called it The Pink Parrot -- yuk! On the budget side of things, Tripods was axed because Grade didn't feel that the show should continue for a third year - but he changed his mind about it TWICE. Now it's definitely not coming back this year, although producer Richard Bates is still lobbying for $$ to finish the trilogy. When Dr. Who was annnounced as coming back with a half length season, rumors abounded that it would have the same amount of money as it would for a full length season. Of course, this turned out to be false. However, I have seen part of the new season, and the effects are slightly above the pitiful norm. Another rumor currently making the rounds is that the next producer will be either David Maloney (of Blake's 7 fame) or Graham Williams (again!) and that the next season will be only 12 episodes. jon drukman BITNET: drukman@umass ARPANET: rms.g.jon%oz@mit-mc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 86 9:10:04 CST From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA> Subject: Re: Star Trek stamp > Trekkies petitioned the advisory committee to approve a stamp to > mark the show's 25th anniversary in 1991. "That's a new twist, > but they get a double 'no,'" Mr. McDowell said. "We don't do > commercial enterprises and we don't do 25th anniversaries. We do > 100ths." Interesting comment there. I wonder how this spokesman would explain the commemorative T. S. Eliot stamp, recently unveiled here in St. Louis with a public ceremony at the Missouri Historical Society, on Eliot's *98th* birthday! (I did call the Society about this, and they had no explanation for the USPS doing it this year instead of waiting the two years to do it on the 100th birthday...) Will Martin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 86 12:01 EST From: GLAUBMAN%nuhub.acs.northeastern.edu@RELAY.CS.NET Subject: SF drinks An anecdotal list of personal favorites: Lensman 2nd (Kimball) Kinnison and Port Admiral Hayes would knock back a beaker of fayalin as a sort of 'apres zwilnik'. As Wild Bill Williams, Kinnison's cover required him to down prodigious quantities of raw liquor (and some non-utilitarian drug, called I believe 'bentham'). Doc Smith also had a high regard for Arcturan wines & brandies. I don't think anyone ever drank them, tho -- they were mostly loaded into freighters and hijacked by minions of Boskonia. Retief of course relied heavily on that mainstay of diplomacy, the 'martini'. He was fond of the two special wines of the agricultural planet Bacchus (they came in 2 colors, black and amber maybe??). Henry Kuttner's Gallegher ("Robots Have No Tails") created the first sentient (artificial) beercan opener/singing companion. Gallegher was also notable as the inventor of the alphabetical pub crawl. ...'w' is for whiskey...'x', uh, 'x' is for xtra whiskey . (Note: don't try this at home,or anywhere else,kids). Mack Reynolds' main contribution was the *John Brown's Body*. The next morning, the victim of this dangerous concoction would lie "molderin' in the grave." Reynolds gave the recipe several times, but I don't remember it, and I'm not sure he didn't change it from book to book. Does anyone remember this one? (a Reynolds or Laumer concoction, maybe): 1 liter Napoleon Brandy 1 liter sweet champagne <various sickening sweet liqueurs> 1 quart lime(?) sherbet whipped cream, with a cherry on top served in a punch bowl The hero did not so much drink this as accidentally spill it on his host. For stickiness, pungency, and coldness it is unsurpassed. My all-time favorite SF drink is from my all-time favorite SF novel, Frederic Brown's "What Mad Universe." This book also contains the best spacedrive (sewing machine powered -- Harrison's Bloater Drive is a close second). The drink is called, I think, "moon juice", and the milky-white liquid is a cross between absinthe and the milder forms of thionite. My advice to the known universe is to become 15 years old and read this book, or vice versa. NOTE to the canonical list of sentient computers thread: WMU , as befits any ATFSF novel, has one of those too. His name is Mekky and he is a featureless silver globe who communicates by telepathy. All of the above authors are giants in our field; most of them are dead now. It seems oddly appropriate to end this overlong message with a toast to them: Cheers David J. Glaubman glaubman@northeastern.edu (CSNet) ------------------------------ Date: 22 Nov 86 01:25:31 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: More on E.E.S.'s drinks... GLAUBMAN%nuhub.acs.northeastern.edu@RELAY.CS.NET... >Lensman 2nd (Kimball) Kinnison and Port Admiral Hayes would knock >back a beaker of fayalin as a sort of 'apres zwilnik'. As Wild >Bill Williams, Kinnison's cover required him to down prodigious >quantities of raw liquor (and some non-utilitarian drug, called I >believe 'bentham'). Doc Smith also had a high regard for Arcturan >wines & brandies. I don't think anyone ever drank them, tho -- >they were mostly loaded into freighters and hijacked by minions of >Boskonia. It's Haynes, not Hayes. And the drug was bentlam. ("benny", "sleepy-happy", et cetera) You forgot a few: Laxlo Aldebaranian bolega (similar to whiskey) No, Boskonia never hijacked wines; remember when Kinnison QX'ed Matthews' ship to Alsakan? ``They'll hit it on the way out -- its cargo right now is a lot more valuable to Boskonia than a load of Alsakanite cigarettes would be.'' (Roughly what he said, from memory.) Brandon S. Allbery Tridelta Industries, Inc 7350 Corporate Blvd. Mentor, Ohio 44060 +1 216 155 1080 HOME: 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 974 9210 CSNET: ncoast!allbery@Case ARPA: via relay.CS.NET UUCP: cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!{allbery,tdi2!brandon} ------------------------------ Date: Wed 19 Nov 86 18:40:21-CST From: Larry Van Sickle <CS.VANSICKLE@R20.UTEXAS.EDU> Subject: sf writers DO advise military The BOOKS AND ARTS section of The Economist, November 15, 1986, contains a two page review of Robert Heinlein, Issac Asimov, and Arthur C. Clarke. The review doesn't contain anything new or interesting, but an accompanying piece says: When Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle described an elite corps of sci-fi authors (Robert Heinlein among them) co-opted by the military to provide intelligence on an alien invasion in their novel "Footfall", some accused them of delusions of grandeur. This year, just such a group joined in a three day think-tank at Wright Patterson air base under the aegis of the American Air Force. Their speculations on future warfare are classified information, of course, but a thorough reading of "Footfall" might provide a few clues. This novel will no doubt become required reading for military strategists in the Kremlin. Larry Van Sickle cs.vansickle@r20.utexas.edu.#Internet Computer Sciences Department U of Texas at Austin ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 86 00:33:34 GMT From: hscfvax!south@rutgers.rutgers.edu (790689@NDSK@SSneddon) Subject: Re: sf writers DO advise military I read an interesting little letter to the President, or the Joint Chiefs of Staff, or somebody, which spoke of the _Thor_ space-based anti-ground- force weapon. It was in a strange little SF magazine/book - "Destinies", perhaps? I don't remember. Basically, it seems to be constructed of large bundles of very hard rods (titanium? steel? again, don't remember...) and a remote-control reorientation/detonation device. What happens is that computers calculate the proper time and orientation for a Thor device to be exploded, causing the steel rods to fall out of orbit and strike a selected target. This weapon should be devastatingly effective against infantry, tanks, trucks, you name it, they'll punch lotsa little glowing holes in it. I *think* the falling rods would hit the ground at escape velocity... am I correct in this? Oh, yes, I believe the letter was written by Jerry Pournelle. G. T. Samson Addresses: gts@hscfvax.uucp gts@borax.lcs.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 86 13:57:56 -0200 From: Eyal mozes <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@violet.berkeley.edu> Subject: the misreading of literature There's an excellent article called "The misreading of literature", by Michelle Marder Kamhi, in the last issue (vol. 3, no. 2) of "Aristos - the Journal of Esthetics". The article deals with the phenomenon of people misinterpreting and condemning novels by pointing out of context to certain passages or expressions in them. The point is illustrated by an analysis of "Huckleberry Finn" and the common misinterpretations of it. The article also points out the importance of understanding this phenomenon, in order to combat the demands, heard so often nowadays, for banning certain books from English classrooms and school libraries. I think the recent debate, in SF-Lovers, about Heinlein and the allegedly unsavory values and views in his work, was full of examples of what the article discusses. Eyal Mozes BITNET: eyal@wisdom CSNET and ARPA: eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA UUCP: ...!ihnp4!talcott!WISDOM!eyal ------------------------------ Date: 25 Nov 86 18:23:40 GMT From: watnot!jdewinter@rutgers.rutgers.edu (the Doctor) Subject: Time Travel and other phenomenon Okay, this may be asking for trouble, but here it goes! I would like to compile two different sets of lists which I would post to the net. First of all there would be a list about time and time travel containing stories dealing with those two subjects. Secondly, I would also compile a list on other science fiction stories dealing with a variety of phenomenon. These lists, once I had finished editing and compiling them, would be posted on the net so that everyone could read them and get a copy of them if needed. If you have a story or stories that you would like to nominate for the lists, please reply using the pathname below (jdewinter@watnot.UUCP), to send me the stories you would like to nominate. Please have two separate sections, one for the nominations for the time and time travel story list, and one for the stories with other phenomenon. For the second list, please specify as much as possible the phenomenon (i.e. alternate universes, old science fiction, man cast in alien world, etc.) as possible. Please include the author of the story as well as where the story can be found if you yourself know where it can be found. Your cooperation is greatly appreciated. Jack De Winter Resurrection College Westmount Road Waterloo, Ontario, Canada N2C 2C1 (519)-888-6971 UUCP: ihnp4!watmath!watnot!jdewinter ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Dec 86 0917-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #401 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 8 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 401 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson (2 msgs) & Brust & Dick & Finney & King (2 msgs) & Lee & Palmer & Steakley (2 msgs) & Dying Main Characters (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Nov 86 18:19:19 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!boreas@rutgers.rutgers.edu (The Mad Tickle Monster) Subject: Re: Story Query (plus another query!) Boebert.SCOMP@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA writes: >Title and author sought for a short story that to the best of my >recollection appeared in Astounding in the late 1950s or early >1960s. Epigraph was the folk song _Samuel Hall_ ("For my name is >Samuel Hall ... and I hate you one and all ...) I think the topic >was computer sabotage but I may have misremembered that (memory is >the second thing to go with age. The first is ... ah ... oh, >never mind.) > >Any pointers out there? Thanx, The story was entitled (ahem) _Sam_Hall_ (:-); I saw it in the collection _Machines_that_Think_, edited in part by Asimov. Great story; indeed about sabotage. Highly recommended. Another story people have been mentioning on the net is also in this collection, about the computer that, when turned on, is asked the question, "Is there a god?", and replies, "THERE IS NOW." (Bolt of lightning fuses the on-off switch closed. . .). Good collection, overall, even though I dislike Asimov's "editing" usually. Anybody know where I can find the (complete) lyrics to the song "Sam Hall"?? Michael A. Justice BITNet: cscj0ac@bostonu CSNET: boreas%bucsb@bu-cs UUCP: ....!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas (boreas@bucsb.UUCP) ARPA: boreas@bucsb.bu.edu AT&T: home: 787-4189 work1:353-2784 work2:353-9063 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 86 09:29 EST From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Sam Hall To: Boebert@HI-MULTICS.ARPA I have been informed that the story with the epigraph " ... oh my name is Samuel Hall .." is "Sam Hall" by Poul Anderson and is indeed about computer sabotage. Now my question is: does anybody have the publication date, and, more importantly, is this the first hacker/penetration story? Earl (Boebert @ MIT-Multics) ------------------------------ Date: 27 Nov 86 06:29:16 GMT From: starfire!brust@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust) Subject: Re: Deaths of main characters (YENDI) > Is he doing Vlad's trip to Deathsgate Falls? I'm *very* > interested. Yes and no. TACKY...I mean, TECKLA does not cover this. I am, however, working on one called EASTER BUNNY, er, make that, EASTERNER, which will deal with that. I'm glad you're interested; thanks. It will be out, perhaps, in a bit more than a year. I'll be getting back to work on it as soon as I finish reading the one hundred and thirty-fifth "new approach to time travel." ------------------------------ Date: 4 Dec 86 19:07:38 GMT From: stan@hpksla.HP.COM (Stan Vierhaus) Subject: Philip Dick Does anyone know when and how Philip Dick died ?? Stan Vierhaus uucp: hpda!hpksla!stan ------------------------------ Date: 4 Dec 86 19:23:11 GMT From: rekant@elbereth.RUTGERS.EDU (Debbi Rekant) Subject: Re:Time Travel and other phenomenon !!!HELP!!! There is an excellent book for your time travel list. It is by Jack Finney and is entitled "Time and Again". It is about a governmental experiment which causes one of the particpants to return to New York City in February, 1882 (I think). It covers his experiences and feelings while there. In addition, there are beautiful sketches throughout the book of New York in the late 1800's. Not only should it be on your list, I strongly recommend you read it. The ending has a really nice twist. Debbi Rekant Rutgers University P.O Box 879 Piscataway, NJ 08854 (201) 932-2456 UUCP : topaz!elbereth!rekant BITNET : 1005104@rutvm1 ARPANET: rekant@blue.rutgers.edu SNAIL : 66 Larry Court Dayton, NJ 08810 VOICE : (201) 274-289 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 86 10:48:08 est From: levine@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Jonathan M. Levine) To: donn@utah-cs.arpa Subject: IT by Stephen King Donn, I just finished IT a couple of weeks ago, and while I don't argue the authenticity in the characters (King has always been best when writing dialog, whether it's when people speak or think), I finished the book with a couple of impressions. First, that King really needs a good editor...someone really needs to say him, "Steve, this book is too long." [c.f. the "new version" of The Stand which is rumored to be in the works...it's the original, unedited, 1.5x longer version that he had to edit before he became such a sales draw]. And second, I get the feeling that he did gobs of research for this novel. But I'd rather not become consciously aware that an author has done research, rather just to feel like the story flows better because of it. The "final ritual" is just King showing off his knowledge of non-Western creation myths. I also found the forgetting at the end disappointing... but I guess we don't have to worry about a sequel. All in all, I liked King better before he became a "phenomenon". Jonathan P.S. Didn't you find just a bit pretentious the subtitle, "A Novel"? I suppose that's for all the "Weekly World News" readers...(what did I think it was, a history text?) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 86 00:41:28 MST From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley) To: levine@eniac.seas.upenn.edu Subject: Re: IT by Stephen King Let's take these points from back to front... You thought it was 'just a bit pretentious' for the cover of IT to have the words 'a novel' down in the corner... My feeling is that this is a common publisher's practice for first editions of mainstream books that are expected to sell well. I looked through my last year's reading and all of the books which had just the words 'a novel' on the front were crossovers of some kind (for the curious: ILLYWHACKER by Peter Carey, NIGHTS AT THE CIRCUS by Angela Carter and GALAPAGOS by Kurt Vonnegut). I wouldn't make very much of it. King as a 'phenomenon': I actually think that King hasn't changed a lot since becoming a best-selling author. I suppose that he's able to sell books now that he might not have sold before on account of their length or content, but I think he would have written them anyway and in pretty much the same style. To fold this in with your first point about King needing a good editor, I think it's likely that King's work would have been more edited if he hadn't become such a selling force, but I'm not sure whether it would necessarily have been better. Yes, King needs a good editor, but unfortunately they don't grow on trees; bad editing is (still) more common than good, I think. King has commented (in Charles Platt's DREAM MAKERS II interview) that he needs editing and that editors can get intimidated when they work with someone whose contract guarantees millions in income for the company. By the way, I agree about THE STAND -- I thought that even the cut version was far too long and unstructured for its story. Many, many people will disagree with us, I fear. I liked IT much more than THE STAND. About the 'gobs of research' which you felt were intrusive... I guess I didn't think that this stood out very much from the other plot clutter in the novel. I did think that some of this made for a nice, dark, Lovecraftian feel; remember the rituals practiced by the followers of Cthulhu? Perhaps you'd prefer not to remember... Hm, when I wrote the original review I was all prepared to conclude with a critique about novels which bite off too much of their topic. I cut it because the review was getting too long, but now I'm interested again; maybe I'll write it up and send it in to sf-lovers later. I suppose someone who writes bloated reviews shouldn't complain about bloated novels, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 86 00:21:15 GMT From: sdcrdcf!markb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar) Subject: Tanth Lee story I am trying to locate a story written by Tanth Lee called (I think) "After the Guillotine". It related the after death experiences of several people executed during the French Revolution. I remember it being in a magazine during the last 2 years but can't find it in my collection. Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 86 04:21:45 GMT From: sq!becky@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: EMERGENCE > trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes: >>How realistic do you think it would be for a prepubescent person, >>regardless of how knowledgeable and intelligent, to have the >>*wisdom* to understand people well enough to develop their >>characters in a diary? > > You don't need to understand people well to write down what they > do. And their actions are what form their characters. Not only that, but `regardless of how knowledgeable and intelligent'? Come on! Candy sees patterns more quickly than others her age, right? Total recall, etc. She learns FAST, and well. This ability is not restricted to what she reads in books or is told by a teacher! Is she not capable of studying the people around her? Why SHOULDN'T she be able to understand people that well? Basically, you're applying standard reactions for `a person her age', when it's been established that she's far ahead of most people her age in any sense except the physical; after all, everything else is created, from the time of birth, by what the brain manages to take in. Becky Slocombe Box 293, Station `P' Toronto, Ontario M5S 2S8 ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 86 23:50:13 GMT From: marc@hpltca.HP (Marc Clarke) Subject: Re: "Armor" by John Steakley >This sounds an awful lot like _Starship Troopers_, by (I think) >Heinlein. Anyone who's read it have any comment? Starship Troopers is a first person narrative of a young man's coming of age in the then-Marine Corps. He just happens to wear armor which is a powered exoskeleton, as does one of the main characters in Armor. The bad guys in Starship Troopers also happen to be bemmeys (Bug Eyed Monsters) of a particularly repuslive nature with a telepathic hive mentality, as they do in Armor. The Starship Trooper philosophy is one of citizenship (only veterans can vote), whereas the philosophy in Armor is one of an aristocracy run amok. Armor dwells on aristocratic and Army shortcomings (people too blinded by their desire for emire to make responsible decisions) whereas ST is a lesson in responsible government and the responsiblity of the governed to see that government is responsible. In ST, the first person narrative is given by a teenager who has joined the Army and relates his experiences in boot camp and in combat. He goes through his experiences growing in wisdom and maturity, and ends up better understanding the foundations of his democratic (limited sufferage) system. In Armor, the first person narrative is given by a crook who is in the business of penetrating a research station for looting purposes. He falls in with the intellegent but not-too-streetwise head researcher, who has stumbled across a suit of armor and is slowly reading out the memory banks stored in the helmet. The recordings can only be played back by wearing the helmet and actually living through the experience (or so it seems to the wearer, of course). All of the people who wear the helmet for playback are profoundly affected by the experiences of the unidentified soldier who submerges his personality and becomes a humanoid fighting machine, surviving the destruction of entire batallions in strategic and tactical nightmares. After some time, no one is willing to believe that the unidentified soldier has been through the experiences or could have survived them, so his records are purged and he is sent back into combat long after he should have been rotated home. The implicit message is that he has to be killed off because he might possibly reveal the magnitude of the botch-up. The lesson pounded in again and again is that birthright is not any qualification to rule or govern. As it turns out, the unidentified soldier turns up and his unique qualifications to comment on the above lesson are revealed. I can't say more or the Net Spoiler Police will be after me. >> It is clear that Steakley was inviting comparison to ST. Too >> many details are identical, such as the armor, the military life, >> the terms for and nature of the enemy forces, the fact that >> Buenos Aires was nuked in each book, and so on. There were also >> striking contrasts. At a > > I never really noticed the similarity between the two (other than > the armour of course). I thought they were saying different things > and for that reason think they are equally good (fence sitter :-) I did, and enjoyed someone having the guts to take an existing model and do a really good treatment of the topic which is quite different from RH's. > Has Steakley written any other books? Don't know, but I'd sure like to read them if he has. Armor rates high on my personal list of the very best SF I've ever read (at last count, I have 1000+ SF paperbacks at home, and I always throw away the lousy ones as soon as I finish them...). Marc Clarke Hewlett-Packard Company Loveland, Colorado ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 86 15:08:44 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: "Armor" by John Steakley marc@hpltca.HP (Marc Clarke) writes: > The lesson [that _Armor_] pounded in again and again is that > birthright is not any qualification to rule or govern. As it > turns out, the unidentified soldier turns up and his unique > qualifications to comment on the above lesson are revealed. I > can't say more or the Net Spoiler Police will be after me. I'll say a *little* more, Spoiler Cops or no. (Marc's contrasting of the two books was pretty solid and thorough, but I just *love* to pick nits, so here goes.) I don't see the "lesson" of _Armour_ as relating to birthright at all, for two reasons. Many of the people portrayed as incompetent and worthless gained their positions for reasons unrelated to their birth, and conversely, one of the more admiriable characters (the monarch that seeks out the main character) *did* gain his position by birth. Instead, I perceived the lesson to be a variant on the "power corrupts" theme. In particular, we have all these people who *say* they are engaged in a War against the BEMs, but they really are off playing power and dominance games among themselves, and merely killing (some) BEMs and getting lots of soldiers killed by the BEMs as a sort of grotesque side effect. Generalizing, it is saying that many or all wars have aspects of this gruesome situation. Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 20 Nov 86 20:58:46 GMT From: okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (The New Number Who) Subject: Re: Dying Main Characters In Piers Anthony's trilogy, _Battle Circle_, which is composed of _Sos the Rope_, _Var the Stick_, and Neq the Sword_, Sos dies at the end of the second book, and Var in the middle of the third. Jeff Okamoto ..!ucbvax!okamoto okamoto@ucbvax.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Dec 86 18:59:44 EST From: Jeremy Bornstein Subject: Re: Dying main characters I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Van Vogt's Null-A books-- I don't remember in which one Gosseyn (the main character) dies, but he dies in at least one of them. Jeremy ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Dec 86 0928-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #402 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 8 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 402 Today's Topics: Films - Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 3 Dec 86 16:46:15 CST From: William Martin <control@ALMSA-1.ARPA> Subject: The Star Trek Philosophy The following is a transcription of a column from the Nov. 30, 1986, issue of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. I thought it might be of interest to the SF-Lovers community. EVER-ENDURING 'STAR TREK' by Harper Barnes More than a decade ago, in "Beam Me Up, Scotty", the woman called James Tiptree Jr. wrote about a boy who grew up in love with "Star Trek". The boy dreamed of cruising space with the crew of the Enterprise, and so he became a military pilot, hoping to step up to astronaut. Instead, he ended up flying a war plane in some Vietnam-like Central American war, a surrogate world war fought with biological weapons. The boy who dreamed of space ended up consumed by a plague. As he lay dying, in either delerium or mystical vision, his soul was sustained and then lifted by astronauts high above -- astronauts named Scotty and Kirk and Spock in a spaceship dedicated to peaceful exploration of the universe. More recently, in an astonishing article on the front page of the Nov. 16 New York Times Book Review titled "Spock Among the Women", Camille Bacon-Smith noted the continuing interest in this 20-year-old science-fiction television series. A new "Star Trek" series is in the works for next fall, and the voyages have been extended in an "apparently never-ending series of paperbacks" and three movies, now joined by "Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home". "But," Bacon-Smith wrote, "there is another world of 'Star Trek.' Close to 10,000 fans, most of them women, have created over 30,000 pieces of fiction, poetry, song, criticism, commentary and graphic art based on the television show, movies, and the writing of other fans. "The work appears in amateur publications called fanzines, distributed at conventions and through the mail. Because they use the copyrighted products of others as a basis for their art but do not pay for their use, writers in the community are legally constrained from making a profit. "This partially explains the predominance of women in the community... Women, who traditionally spend a large portion of their lives working in relative isolation for little or no pay, bring a different set of motivations to their writing and art. They want to talk to other women, to express themselves in the science fiction form that until recently has almost excluded them." That last phrase is misleading, since much of the enduring science fiction of the 1950's and '60's was written by women. Some women science-fiction writers used the genre to express feminist ideas before Ms. magazine. But Bacon-Smith writes convincingly and moving [sic] of the fanzine writers, 90 percent of whom are women: "Individual, unique creation is not as important to these women as sharing a fantasy universe in which real-life concerns such as sexuality and equality can be discussed in the metaphorical language of 'Star Trek'. This sharing may take the form of a story tree, a group of stories, poems, pieces of artwork, or novels by one or more authors." What is it about "Star Trek" that makes it so enduring and that provides the basic symbols and characters for thousands of variations? And why have so many devoted amateur writers whose main interest is in "sharing" experiences rather than in flaunting ego chosen "Star Trek"? If you were a science-fiction fan in 1966, when "Star Trek" came on, you had mixed feelings. On one hand, it was science fiction. On the other, it had very little to do with the science-fiction of the mid and late 1960s, when the hot writers were being assembled for a collection of anthologies called "Dangerous Visions". Science fiction was turning psychedelic and was soon to get positively mean, just like the era. And here was this television show out of the stories of the 1950's, when science-fiction was a pulp underground for people, mostly very young, who embraced values that might very broadly be called liberal in the middle of a repressive era. In the 1950's, science fiction was a quiet little corner universe where races lived together in peace and explored the galaxy, where people learned to share -- even, in many stories like Theodore Sturgeon's "More Than Human" series, learned a kind of mystical unity that transcended individuality. Science fiction meant escape to a world of trust, generosity, racial harmony, sharing, a world where it was OK to be smart and even better to put concern for other people above logical self-interest. To quote e. e. cummings, whose poetry was popular at the same time among the same people, "There's a hell of a good universe next door. Let's go." The sweet, naive, even sometimes sappy, anti-rational humanism -- or, rather, life-formism -- that pervades the new "Star Trek" movie was there 20 years ago in the television series, and was there for many in the optimistic science-fiction stories of the 1950's. By the 1960's, for a period -- say about the length of time that the Beatles stayed together -- the cult myths of the 1950's underground were the basis of a huge popular culture. By the end of the decade, the Klingons of greed were already starting to re-exert control, and in the 1970's a lot of those feelings were shoved back into the underground again, which is where they burble today. But, of course in a country of well more than 200 million people, a cult can consist of millions, and become in Klingon terms a market segment, worthy of a series of big-budget, high-tech movies. That is one of the fascinating ironies of our thoroughly ironic society. Another irony is that you and millions of others can dial 900-720-TREK and, for 50 cents, listen to one of the "six and a half humans" in the "Star Trek" crew say a few recorded words on the new movie, which focuses on the destructive power of greed. Let me save you 50 cents. I called on Friday, and who was on the other end but Chekov, the Russian member of the Enterprise crew, or at least a recording of him. He said a few unmemorable words about the dangers of the latest adventure and ended with, "You think that the Klingons, without even knowing it, have gotten the last laugh on us after all?" Nope. **** End of article **** [Editorial notes: I transcribed the variations of hyphenation of "science fiction" vs. "science-fiction" as it was printed in the original. Also, does anyone know if that assessment of the fanzine contributors as being "90 percent" women is true? That just seems rather high, given the impressions I have gotten in the past of the male > female ratio in SF fandom.] Regards, Will Martin ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 86 08:09:14 GMT From: reed!tim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Tim Flanagan) Subject: Star Trek IV review -- SPOILERS (though not major ones) Well, I just got back from Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. Capsule review: As Gene Siskel and Roger Ebert said, this is the best Trek yet. I laughed, I cried, and I cheered. Moreover, I am not exagerating. I really did laugh, cry, and cheer. SPOILER WARNING Some more details: STORY: Not bad at all. When I first heard that they were going (coming) back in time, I thought "Oh, no...." . The premise is well justified, however, and the entire episode is executed with a lot of respect for the integrity of Star Trek, and a respect for the more "mundane" movie-goer as well. If you know about the plot already, you are probably aware of many "difficult" concepts which seem entirely unbelievable within the realm of Star Trek (e.g. what can a 20th Century nuclear aircraft carrier have that might be of use to a 23rd Century Klingon Bird of Prey). Well, even this is dealt with in an acceptable manner. I could easily pick nits about Spock always having the answers, or Gillian (pronounced with a "J") even giving Kirk and Spock the time of day, much less a ride to Golden Gate Park (their landing place). In "real" life, she would have driven right past them (possibly giving them a finger as she drove). In "real" life, she would have said to Kirk, when he began to tell his story, "Just get away from me, you freak!" I had to sort of give her the benefit of the doubt, so to speak. ACTING PERFORMANCES: All the "regulars" did great. No problems here. Robin Curtis leaves something to be desired as Lt. Saavik (as usual), despite the fact that she has only a cameo role. She is just not very good at portraying a Vulcan/Romulan. Catherine Hicks (20th Century marine biologist Gillian) was fine, but not spectacular. Mark Lenard was great. The Klingon Ambassador (????? Schmidt) was very good. As to Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Uhura, Scotty, Sulu, and Chekov, they all did admirably. Each character has a little exclusive scene, and this makes the whole film more enjoyable for me as a Trekker. There are many "cute" scenes (though, once again, the integrity of the Star Trek universe, and our belief in these characters and situations as "real" is not compromised by the jokes). The jokes tend to be of a depth which other mass-appeal films might have difficulty trying to pull off (references to Jacqueline Suzanne and Harold Robbins as "the Giants" of late Twentieth Century literature). There are, in addition, many rather short scenes of conflict between our heroes, which are a nice addition and add realism. After Kirk issues a curt command, Scotty mumbles something like "Well he's in a tizzy, isn't he..." Spock and his father have an interesting, though brief, discussion toward the end, in which... No, you'll have to see it for yourself (review Journey to Babel). SPECIAL EFFECTS: These were exciting to watch (and hear), and added to rather than distracted from the story. In quite a few cases, they had a certain "look" of artificiality (especially landscapes, of which there are quite a few). They are beautiful to look at, but the critical eye somehow "knows" that they are just matte-paintings. I liked them, but I wonder what it might take to avoid this "look". The scenes of crewmembers exiting a cloaked Bird of Prey in Golden Gate Park are really something. MUSIC: The music for this film is quite a change of pace from the all- classical soundtracks of the previous films. They have utilized bits of upbeat light jazz-rock in certain places (notably when they first begin wandering around San Francisco). Some punk (if you've seen this scene, you know what I mean. If you haven't, don't get the wrong idea). The rest remains full-orchestra music, but with a great deal of variation which the previous soundtracks lacked. OVERVIEW: This film is fast-paced, fun, and dramatic. It is all-the-way Star Trek in that there are no "bad guys", no fire-fights or senseless violence. There is a theme ("Save the Whales"), and their is a humanity to the film. Spock seems to find his humanity by the end of the film, and this is quite touching to an old Trekker like myself. The crew are thrown into a situation, are forced to use their skills and reason to figure their way through each problem and setback, and must make decisions which will affect the fate of the world. What could be more Star Trek than that? Timothy R. Flanagan ------------------------------ Date: 27 Nov 86 15:24:47 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: STAR TREK IV [no spoilers] STAR TREK 4: THE VOYAGE HOME A film review by Mark R. Leeper Capsule review: The one-time crew of the Enterprise are back in what is probably their best film so far. While the script occasionally borrows from TIME AFTER TIME or lapses into low comedy (with a rather silly hospital visit), the main plot is new and engaging and the special effects are-- occasionally--very impressive. I usually try to start my reviews by giving a little bit of background information. Well, if there's anyone out there who is unfamiliar with what "Star Trek" is, send me mail and I will fill you in. I have just seen the fourth and (well, so much for suspense) best entry of the "Star Trek" film series. It continues the story started with STAR TREK II: THE WRATH OF KHAN, picking up shortly after STAR TREK III: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK left off. But for most of the screen time the characters are involved in an unrelated adventure that takes them to San Francisco in the 1980's. (How convenient! The TV series had let Kirk see Earth of the 1960's but never had he seen Earth as it was in the 1980's.) While Lucas's "Star Wars" series purports to tell one long story, the segments of the "Star Trek" series are much better integrated together. In fact, with the fourth film the "Star Trek" series may be surpassing the "Star Wars" series for the quality of its story-telling. It certainly doesn't hurt that the "Star Trek" series is getting away from the scientifically flawed concept of the Genesis Project. Ah, but these are generalities. Specifically, what is STAR TREK IV: THE VOYAGE HOME about? Unfortunately, I cannot say very much about that. There is a giant thingee from space that is menacing Earth and to save Earth Kirk and the regulars of the cast must go back in time to our present. I could say more but if you've seen the film you'd already know what I would say and if you haven't you wouldn't want to know the nature of the menace beforehand. The problem is the plot comes in so unexpectedly that almost anything I could say about it would be spoiler. Suffice it to say that the crew is set loose in modern-day San Francisco and must try to seem normal there as H. G. Wells did in Nicholas Meyer's film TIME AFTER TIME. In fact, in several places the script borrows heavily from TIME AFTER TIME That need not be so surprising since one of the four listed authors for the script was Nicholas Meyer. The script takes on a slightly didactic tone in espousing one of the commoner causes of our day, but it is well-justified by the plot. With the exception of three strikingly unconvincing matte paintings, Industrial Light and Magic has provided some terrific special effects. Most of the film required no special effects at all, so the effects budget could be focused on the few scenes where it was really needed. Some of those are spectacular and constitute the main reasons you want to see this film on a wide screen if at all possible. The music by Leonard Rosenman is in several places reminiscent of his score to LORD OF THE RINGS. It is competent but on the whole probably not up to James Horner's score for STAR TREK II. I am not sure why Horner was replaced except perhaps that his score for STAR TREK III was too much like his previous score. STAR TREK IV is fun and still tells a reasonable science fiction story. Rate it a low +3 on the -4 to +4 scale. Mark R. Leeper ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Dec 86 0945-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #403 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 8 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 403 Today's Topics: Films - Star Trek (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Nov 86 22:45:29 GMT From: hoptoad!tim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of I generally agree with Tim Flanagan's comments about the movie. It is well worth waiting in line and paying five dollars to see. However, the plot is seriously flawed. This doesn't ruin the movie, since its greatness lies in individual scenes and lines, and the painstaking and believable characterizations, but it is enough to give one pause. The main plot conflicts are never resolved. That is, what the hell is this probe, who sent it, why is it trying to talk to the whales, what is the nature of whale intelligence, what prior contact was there between the whales and alien intelligence? The lack of any resolution for these points makes the whole movie as devoid of authentic plot as the average revenge or war story. The main obstacle is simply an incomprehensible something that drifts into the solar system, inadvertently nearly destroys Earth, and then drifts on as mysteriously as it came. Wow. Anyone for a quick game of D&D, where a bunch of evil monsters come at you for no apparent reason and you eventually kill them all? That is the level this plot operates on. On a wholly unrelated point, Catherine Hicks' conspicuous bralessness led to some amusing speculation on scenes in the making of the movie. I can hear Nimoy directing, "No, no, Catherine, you're supposed to be *interested*! Come on, let's see both of them! (pause) Sigh. Okay, let's get the guy out there to tweak them up...." Tim Maroney, Electronic Village Idiot {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 86 03:38:01 GMT From: ulowell!page@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bob Page) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >The main plot conflicts are never resolved. That is, what the hell >is this probe, who sent it, why is it trying to talk to the whales, >what is the nature of whale intelligence, what prior contact was >there between the whales and alien intelligence? Item #1: It is left to the viewer to entertain possible answers. Item #2: Spock could always mind-meld with one of the whales and ask. Item #3: It forms the basis for the next ST movie :-) Lastly, the *point* of the movie was to teach you something, as ST has always tried to do. If you got the point that whales are intelligent and should not be mercilessly slaughtered, you got the idea. Most viewers will probably accept the theory that Spock gave earlier: The race behind the probe thought it was time for a spot check. Bob Page U of Lowell CS Dept. ulowell!page page@ulowell.CSNET ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 86 08:22:19 GMT From: viper!dave@rutgers.rutgers.edu (David Messer) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >However, the plot is seriously flawed. ... The main plot >conflicts are never resolved. That is, what the hell is this >probe, who sent it, why is it trying to talk to the whales, what is >the nature of whale intelligence, what prior contact was there >between the whales and alien intelligence? The lack of any >resolution for these points makes the whole movie as devoid of >authentic plot as the average revenge or war story. The main >obstacle is simply an incomprehensible something that drifts into >the solar system, inadvertently nearly destroys Earth, and then >drifts on as mysteriously as it came. I think that was the whole point of the plot; that the probe was beyond human understanding. If that was what was meant, they didn't spend enough time developing this idea though. After all, ST has often run into totally alien intelligences and has managed to communicate quite nicely. All they had to do was tie in the Universal Translator... But I won't argue too much for the plot. There were many plot faults. (Like why they kept on transporting up to the ship when they could have walked up the stairs; it certainly would have saved on power.) But, in spite of the faults, it is a wonderful movie. I think it clearly was the best of the four at regaining the feel of the TV series, and it was the only one in which one could unabashedly feel good at the end. Now that I have seen the movie twice, I can say that it also is the only one in which the second viewing is better than the first. It makes me feel fine. David Messer Software Consultant UUCP: ihnp4!quest!viper!dave ihnp4!meccts!viper!dave ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 86 20:39:55 GMT From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) Subject: Re:Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers page@ulowell.UUCP (Bob Page) writes: >Lastly, the *point* of the movie was to teach you something, as ST >has always tried to do. If you got the point that whales are >intelligent and should not be mercilessly slaughtered, you got the >idea. Actually, I think the point is even more dramatic than that: whales should not be slaughtered, regardless of their intelligence. Two scenes come to mind. When they are on the initial tour of the Cetacean Institute, Spock says "To hunt a species to extinction is not logical". Later, after the whales are taken a way, Jeanie says something like "My compassion for the whales is not limited to my estimate of their intelligence". I was wondering if one of the premises of the movie is true. Do whales raised in captivity eventually get released? ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 86 20:06:14 GMT From: reed!mirth@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Star Trek IV -- mini-spoilers THIS IS A SPOILER. REPEAT, THIS IS A SPOILER. NOT A MAJOR ONE, BUT IT IS A SPOILER. My major quibble with Gillian's character was that here we have a cetacean biologist with a photographic memory, enough scientific ability to be the Cetacean Institute's assistant director, and enough mental stability to handle being unexpectedly transported into an alien vessel, flown to Alaska in 12 minutes, and slingshotted around the sun into the 23rd century, where she gains a berth on a science ship despite her 'primitive' education. Yet she is a ditzy airhead with no scientific curiosity (if *I* saw a mysterious glow in my rear view mirror, and turned around to see that the guy I'd just dropped off -- who claimed to come from the future -- had vanished, NO WAY would I just drive off! I'd go back and investigate). We never see her demonstrate her great mental abilities; they are all implied, as if her having them is necessary to the plot but otherwise ignored as much as possible. On a related note (this is directed at Tim F.), Uhura has no 'special vignette' in which her abilities are demonstrated. And when they are all escaping from the sinking Bounty, the men stop to help her up the ladder (while the equally out-of-shape Scotty receives no such aid). AND her uniform has heels. A long shot better than the TV series miniskirts, but still... On the plus side, the Captain of the Saratoga is very competent, as is the Captain of the (unidentified, I believe) ship which is making a solar sail to collect energy -- and one is a black woman while the other is an Indian man. So this film is not all that deficient in the equality department; it just doesn't have a Ripley. Finally, :-) :-) :-) :-)!!! I am not a radical feminist, nor do I mean the above complaints to be taken too seriously, since STIV is by no means a serious film. It's just that by the 23rd C., 20th C. mannerisms will have vanished. And if I were Gillian, no matter how intrigued I was by comments about extinction and pregnancy, Kirk was too obviously a creep out to get a date. I would have thrown them out of the pickup immediately, if I'd even bothered to pick them up in the first place. Again, I am not a feminist, just a humanist, but if people don't pay any attention to "chauvinism" wherever it is, however slight or 'unimportant' it is, we'll never get rid of it. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 86 22:27:01 GMT From: ralphw@ius2.cs.cmu.edu (Ralph Hyre) Subject: STIV & transporting all the time (small-spoilers) dave@viper.UUCP (David Messer) writes: >But I won't argue too much for the plot. There were many plot >faults. (Like why they kept on transporting up to the ship when >they could have walked up the stairs; it certainly would have saved >on power.) Given that they were using the cloaking device and didn't want to expose the ship, transporting in seems to be the best solution. If they use the hatch, it's clear that they're entering something invisible, as opposed to simply disappearing in a flash of light anywhere around the ship. This makes it less likely to show a nosy person will find out exactly where the ship is, although it's hard to ignore the dent in the ground. Landing in the park was pretty stupid, but these things were done for 'dramatic expediency' (to make the movie more interesting), as Jimmy Doohan said in a lecture a couple of years back. Ralph W. Hyre, Jr. ralphw@ius2.cs.cmu.edu Phone: (412) 268-2847 ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 86 05:58:18 GMT From: jhunix!ins_akaa@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of >Lastly, the *point* of the movie was to teach you something, as ST >has always tried to do. If you got the point that whales are >intelligent and should not be mercilessly slaughtered, you got the >idea. Yes, I got the idea, and it was one of the most annoying things about the movie. I'm sick and tired of seeing SF, Star Trek or otherwise, that "proves" something by showing it happen (in this case, "proving" that whales are intelligent). (Dr. Who does/did this a great deal, especially in the Pertwee years.) Also, I am tired of the over-used device where an alien, a computer, etc... makes a comment about some facet of contemporary society, said comment just HAPPENING to be the exact same thing that people IN the society, including the writer of the movie/book/etc... want to criticize the society about. The alien, etc... is in the context of the story an outside observer with no preconceptions, but of course the message is REALLY coming from the writer, who is not. (I'm not saying that stories should never be written this way, but I do think that a) when it is done it's usually done poorly, that b) it's an unfair argument, and that c) it tends to ruin "willing suspension of disbelief", which is of course especially important in SF. DISCLAIMER: I am not claiming that whales should be mercilessly slaughtered, I am only quarreling with the claim that the whales are intelligent. SECOND DISCLAIMER: The first disclaimer _shouldn't_ be necessary, but from what I have seen on the net, it usually is. Kenneth Arromdee BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 86 19:44:41 GMT From: hoptoad!laura@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of ins_akaa@jhunix.UUCP (Ken Arromdee) writes: >Also, I am tired of the over-used device where an alien, a >computer, etc... makes a comment about some facet of contemporary >society, said comment just HAPPENING to be the exact same thing >that people IN the society, including the writer of the >movie/book/etc... want to criticize the society about. The alien, >etc... is in the context of the story an outside observer with no >preconceptions, but of course the message is REALLY coming from the >writer, who is not. (I'm not saying that stories should never be >written this way, but I do think that a) when it is done it's >usually done poorly, that b) it's an unfair argument, and that c) >it tends to ruin "willing suspension of disbelief", which is of >course especially important in SF. > >DISCLAIMER: I am not claiming that whales should be mercilessly >slaughtered, I am only quarreling with the claim that the whales >are intelligent. I think that what you have hit upon is the difference between ``art'' and ``propaganda''. If you take an art form and use it to grind your own axe, you are writing propaganda. Most propaganda stinks (hell, most everything stinks) but good propaganda is a lot of fun. Of course, you will find it a lot less fun if you happen to violently disagree with the author. Let me repeat this, so that I don't get involved in a long discussion I don't want. I THINK THAT SOME PROPAGANDA IS DAMN FINE ENJOYABLE WRITING. Okay? If I thought that all propaganda should be relegated to the trash bins, I would have to empty all my bookshelves. David Brin is on record as saying that he doesn't think that whales and dolphins are intelligent. I still think that Startide Rising would have been fun to write. I didn't get the sense that Startide Rising was another dolphin story. But I still think that Startide Rising was propaganda. Science fiction is heralded as the ``literature of ideas'' but when you take away the gadgetry in hard science fiction, what are you left with? A whole lot of ideas, and a lot of wordage which was written to support these ideas. And most of these ideas do not appear to me to be conceived as ``hey, wouldn't it be neat if *this* character had *that* problem'' but instead as ``wow, I'm going to write something which makes a strong political statement, and use all of these characters as metaphors for existing problems, and these places as symbols of these psychological disorders''. Do you understand the difference? This is one of the things the ``New Wave'' (old news now) of 60s writers did for science fiction. Science fiction became political. But take a look at the stories in, say, Dangerous Visions, and see how many of them you think have lasting value beyond the ideas that were politically current at the time they were written. Also look and see how good the writing is. Good writing can make even old, tired, done to death propaganda palatable. The problem with most propaganda is that there really is no plot, or characterization, and it doesn't even tell a very good story. The writer of propaganda is only interested in getting the message across -- and to hell with any of the other details of writing. If the idea is particularly new, the writing will grip me anyway -- but it is a Funny-once. The second time through all I get is ``bad writing -- quick where is my editor's blue pencil! Bad writing''. If the idea is not new -- then I don't even get the Funny-once. Some people have a lot more tolerance than I for this. The first Xanth book written by Piers Anthony was a Funny-once. But not only didn't it stand up to another read -- I couldn't read any of the subsequent books either. Puns, at least to me, are Funny-once, and a whole series of adventures written in order to tell more puns strikes me as even more excruciating than a whole series of adventures written in order to make a point with propaganda. Perhaps if Piers Anthony took better care with his *writing* as he turned out the Xanth books I could handle it. It still astonishes me that the same person who wrote Macroscope can write the Xanth novels. But, if the writing is good, then I can re-read, and re-read, and re-read and the writing is still good. It doesn't matter how many times I have read the book. Today I reread Zelazny's *Isle of the Dead* which quite probably is my favourite book of all time to read. I must have read it at least 100 times. The ideas are there, but I never got the sense that Zelazny had any political axe to grind. It is just beautiful. In my mind this is Art. Another book I can reread is *Out of the Silent Planet*. That, I think, is propaganda. Beautifully written, immensely readable, enjoyable propaganda, but still propaganda. C. S. Lewis - I disagree with most of your ideas, but boy, can you write. This, of course, leaves me wondering about the Narnia series. Unlike the other three, I don't read the Narnia Books as propaganda. But does that mean that it didn't start out as propaganda and that made all the difference? Or did it grow to be something other than propaganda in its creation? Or am I too dense to notice that it is propaganda? Laura Creighton ihnp4!hoptoad!laura utzoo!hoptoad!laura sun!hoptoad!laura toad@lll-crg.arpa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Dec 86 0833-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #404 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 9 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 404 Today's Topics: Books - Niven (12 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 2 Dec 86 12:30:45 EST From: Robert L. Krawitz <rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU> Subject: Random Niven stuff 1) Stasis fields are not suitable for an indestructable hull, concave or no concave surface. A perfect stasis field blocks anything except gravitation. Thus, no viewports could be provided. Small viewports are not acceptable because they are weak points -- imagine what happens when an X-ray laser pushes through a few 1E-6 m diameter ports! That could still be easily enough energy to fry everyone inside. Remember what happened in Ringworld when some things were TOPOLOGICALLY outside the hull. If the hull has holes, then everything "inside" the hull is topologically outside. The puppeteers didn't make that mistake again! Nor is an imperfect stasis field a solution. It wouldn't provide suitable protection. Consider a stasis field as something which changes the rate of flow of time, and think about what happens in terms of refractive indices. You'd need a perfect stasis field to make this work. 2) Stasis fields with a concave shape are not known to exist. The Sea Statue implies the possibility, but this was not proven (although it is admittedly very strong evidence that concave stasis fields exist). The variable sword isn't proof, either; it clearly has a convex shape if the wire is a perfect right cylinder, which is not at all impossible (actually, why is the wire inside at all? The field itself would work). 3) There's plenty of reason to believe that human protectors helped out in the human-kzin wars. That could explain why the puppeteers believed that humans were "lucky" (protectors are much more intelligent and clever than puppeteers). Lucky people usually create their own luck. And it didn't seem that Teela eating tree-of-life was very lucky for her -- she died young, after all. So whether or not the puppeteers believed that they could breed the humans for luck means little. For that matter, a few protectors could have done the actual genetic engineering with little difficulty -- look at how little trouble Brennan had when he wanted to do something. 4) Superconducting wire would very likely be quite strong. If I remember, most of the proposals for superconducting organics involve long chains. This is just right for a material that is very strong in tension, but is easy to make into a cloth. In fact, Kevlar has just this sort of structure, even if it isn't conducting. Robert Krawitz rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 86 17:21:44 PST (Tuesday) Subject: Nivens' science From: Hallgren.osbunorth@Xerox.COM I wouldn't classify most of Nivens' work as 'hard science', science fiction, as the science just serves to get the characters into trouble, rather than the characters being used to discover the science. But he does present some amusing ideas. Stassis won't do for a spaceship hull because it wouldn't let time pass inside, so we have the 'sea-statue', poor critter. Stassis fields are RIGID! Part of the foreword of 'DOWN IN FLAMES' is an explanation of why Niven is tired of 'Known Space'; too many fantastic materials to keep track of. Myself, I think he has at least one more blockbuster book to write to clean it up. What DID happen to those Homeless PROTECTORS??? I'm sure Nessus would be glad for us to think that only the lotteries, rather than gene manipulation had resulted in 'lucky' humans. We might well join the Kzin on a revenge expedition. At the very least it would put quite a crimp on future man-puppeteer relations. I don't believe a few hundred thousand years is sufficient for the diversity observed on ringworld, if evolution was working normally. It had help, and may well still have help. Known Space is a big place, and the constraints of moving secretly slowing them, the surviving Protectors must be spread thin. What about the Grogs? Aren't they a threat? Did Teela Brown lie about the disease killing off the Protectors of the Ring World? If so, why? Must Louis Wu return to Known space? There must be a third Ringworld novel in the works. Clark H. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 2 Dec 86 22:35:46-CST From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: Niven's inheritable luck debate Various people have posted messages saying that if luck were inheritable, we'd already have it since it would be of great survival value. Other people have replied "that's true, maybe we ARE lucky and don't realize it." It seems to me that luck is indeed of great survival value, so much so that if you are lucky, you will NOT pass the trait on because you WON'T have children...! :-) More seriously, it seems there is a great flaw in assuming that an inheritable trait of great value must necessarily exist in our genes now. Obviously evolution takes TIME, and the first mutation must occur. The arguments given all seem analogous to saying "If there is a funny joke, it will get repeated and soon everyone will know it. Therefore any joke I haven't heard must not be funny." Just because something will get spread around eventually if it arises does not imply that it must be spread around now -- either enough time hasn't elapsed, or it hasn't arisen yet in the first place. Russ ------------------------------ Date: 03 Dec 86 12:37:05 EST (Wed) From: Rick Genter <rgenter@labs-b.bbn.com> Subject: The Smoke Ring As those of you who subscribe to Analog know by now, Larry Niven's new novel, _The_Smoke_Ring_, is being serialized starting with the January issue. I loved _The_Integral_Trees_ (debates about evolution aside), and was looking forward to reading _The_Smoke_Ring_. Well, I started to read it last night, and for some reason I don't like it. I can't put my finger on it, but I get the distinct impression that the writing is *forced*, like someone was holding a gun to Niven's head until he finished it. Does anyone else get that impression? Rick Genter (617) 497-3848 BBN Laboratories Inc. 10 Moulton St. 6/512 Cambridge, MA 02238 rgenter@labs-b.bbn.COM (Internet new) rgenter@bbn-labs-b.ARPA (Internet old) seismo!bbncca!rgenter (UUCP) ------------------------------ Date: 14 Nov 86 19:24:50 GMT From: fai!ronc@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Mote in God's Eye (was self-aware computers) desj@brahms (David desJardins) writes: >kim@amdahl.UUCP (Kim DeVaughn) writes: >>"The Mote in God's Eye" by Niven/Pournell also depends heavily on >>a sentient computer. > This novel is remarkable for the complete lack of computer >technology. I don't remember anything smarter than an autopilot. >Are you thinking of a different book? In fact, the level of all kinds of technology throughout the book was appallingly low. I though I had picked up something by Van Vogt by mistake. Not just the technology, but the characters and situations reminded me of '30's or early '40's pulp fiction. Fine for nostalga, but the book was almost embarrassingly archaic by '80's standards. Ronald O. Christian Fujitsu America Inc. San Jose, Calif. seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: 16 Nov 86 23:25:07 GMT From: oakhill!hunter@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Hunter Scales) Subject: Re: Mote in God's Eye (was self-aware computers) ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes: >In fact, the level of all kinds of technology throughout the book >was appallingly low. I though I had picked up something by Van >Voigt by mistake. Not just the technology, but the characters and >situations reminded me of '30's or early '40's pulp fiction. Fine >for nostalga, but the book was almost embarrassingly archaic by >'80's standards. I will take exception to this. The novel was set in world in which a number of interstellar wars had taken place. The characters and situations derived from the fact that the current "empire" had only comparatively recently risen from pre-interplanetary travel stages of barabarism, again. This explained the extreme sexism and low levels of technology. You may argue that things wouldn't turn out this way, but, in the context of the story, it was plausible. I think it is one of the better sf books I have read from the point of view of character development. Motorola Semiconductor Inc. Hunter Scales Austin, Texas {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax,gatech}!ut-sally!oakhill!hunter ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 86 00:20:43 GMT From: jsloan@wright.EDU (John Sloan) Subject: Re: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels >>"The Mote in God's Eye" by Niven/Pournell >This novel is remarkable for the complete lack of computer >technology. Must be thinking of _Oath of Fealty_ by the same authors, containing a sentient computer named MILLIE. _The Mote in God's Eye_ lacked a lot of high tech stuff because the powers that be froze the technological state of their culture at a level that they believed would prevent global/near space conflicts. John Sloan jsloan@wright.{CSNET,UUCP} ...!cbosgd!wright!jsloan Computer Science Department Wright State University Dayton OH, 45435 +1 513 873 2491 ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 86 19:00:44 GMT From: atari!apratt@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Allan Pratt) Subject: Re: Mote in God's Eye (was self-aware computers) I thought that the technology (or lack thereof) in Mote was a legitimate result of the fact that this was the SECOND empire, built on the ruins of the first. All they've had time to do was (re-)develop the Langston Field and the Alderson Drive, plus the rudimentary computers, weapons, and communications systems they had. Aside from that, they've been too busy bringing the Galaxy under control to prevent another Great Collapse (I forget what it was called, if anything, but Great Collapse is close enough). I found it refreshing that the story DIDN'T rely on amazingly-powerful / sentient computers (like Star Trek: "Computer, analyze this data."). As for characterization and style, I guess I'm just a naive reader: I don't know much about Great Literature, but I know what I like. Allan Pratt Atari Corp. ...lll-lcc!atari!apratt ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 86 20:36:21 GMT From: bambi!mike@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mike Caplinger) Subject: Re: Mote in God's Eye (was self-aware computers) The technology level in MOTE is INTENTIONALLY low! Don't you remember that the Second Empire of Man was only recently established, and built upon the ruins of the First Empire, whose technology level was much higher? Don't remember the set of crystal on board MACARTHUR that had been cut from the windscreen of a wrecked First Empire shuttle, because no such material could be made with Second Empire technology? You could argue about the merits of this book legitimately (I loved it almost unreservedly myself) but the level of technology doesn't seem like a legitimate complaint. Mike Caplinger mike@bellcore.com ------------------------------ Date: 27 Nov 86 21:20:19 GMT From: trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent) Subject: Re: Supercondicting cloth allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >Show me a wire cloth as flexible as cotton (as the superconducting >cloth was implied to be) and yet able to conduct well, and I'll >show you something that makes perpetual motion machines look >plausible by comparison... The two don't mix. Obviously, you've never seen solder wick. If you take some nice thick solder wick and spread it out to a width of about 1/4" and a thickness of about 1 strand, it approaches (if not equals) the flexability of a tough denim or muslin cloth. Since it is made of copper, it conducts fairly well. Also, are you forgetting conductive foams, graphite fiber weaves, aluminum foil, (or for that matter, gold leaf?), etc. You may not like these as examples (they're not all *wire* cloth, and you may define "conduct well" differently) but even so, one could make something like solder wick with much smaller strands of 24K gold wire, and I bet it would be *very* flexible. (it conducts ok, too :-) I won't even talk about chain mail and similar cloths; they are *very* supple. ray trent@csvax.caltech.edu rat@caltech.bitnet ...seismo!cit-vax!trent ------------------------------ Date: 28 Nov 86 06:36:25 GMT From: viper!dave@rutgers.rutgers.edu (David Messer) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? (Ringworld) stirling@fortune.UUCP (Patrick Stirling) writes: >I have news for you. It is now essentially proven that humans >evolved from lower primates which in turn evolved from lower forms >of life, by the science of Molecular Biology. > ... > For example, if we hadn't evolved from something close to >chimpanzees, we wouldn't have ~98% DNA sequence homology to them Proving that we are related to chimpanzees does not prove that we evolved from them. We don't have many examples of fossilized DNA so evolution is not proven by molecular biology. Natural selection and evolution is widely accepted mainly because there aren't many competing theorys which don't presuppose a guiding intelligence (a no-no in science.) The evidence for N.S. and Evolution is really rather scanty. That is why there seems to be a major shake-up in the field every time a new fossil is discovered. If one assumes a race such as the protectors, couldn't one assume that they lasted long enough to do some breeding experiments that would account for a lot of the fossil record? Then if you include the puppeteers, and who knows what other races, it would be very easy to account for the entire "evolutionary" record on Earth. David Messer Software Consultant ihnp4!quest!viper!dave ihnp4!meccts!viper!dave ------------------------------ Date: 28 Nov 86 00:58:05 GMT From: dg_rtp!kjm@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kevin Maroney) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? While I won't comment on the feasability of psionic traits, one thing that has to be remembered in Niven's Known Space stories is that there are people with such abilities, and that the Birth Lottery selected for them. Also, while the lottery might not necessarily select for carriers of that trait (Luck) any more than natural selection, it *would* make carriers of that trait much more readily identifiable. And finally, in one of the two Ringworld books, Niven points out that the human race as a whole has a Luck Field that dictated the discovery of the Ringworld at the time it was needed; Teela was actually seen in _Engineers_ to be less than perfectly lucky, unless you consider being killed to save your race after being turned into a Protector "luck". On a related note, about four years ago, when I was last on the Net, someone posted an outline that Niven and Spinrad had plotted to "the last Known Space novel", entitled _Down In Flames_. I've long since lost my copy; is there anyone out there who has one? (The outline, that is; the novel was never produced, and in the wake of _Engineers_, it looks like it never will be.) Kevin Maroney [Moderator's Note: The outline mentined above is available via the anonymous login function of FTP only. The file is T:<SFL>DOWN-IN-FLAMES.TXT.] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Dec 86 0853-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #405 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 9 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 405 Today's Topics: Films - Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (17 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Dec 86 15:49:06 GMT From: ukecc!grant@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Miles) Subject: Star Trek IV & Time Travel One thing I noticed recently after seeing Star Trek IV was that for the first time in many time travel movies, Kirk actually took someone into the future with him. This would leave a major question mark in the classic paradox of time travel, concerning the non-existence of "Gillian" (the whale expert) which Kirk took to the 23rd century. Her family would not exist. And what about the Phaser and communicator that Chekov left on the USS Enterprise (The aircraft carrier, not the spaceship)...Surely since he left those gadgets behind, our society would have gained a technology leap. Any replies/comments..Welcome Miles ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 86 06:33:17 GMT From: may@husc4.harvard.edu (jason may) Subject: Star Trek V... From Boston After Dark (Boston Phoenix weekly Arts supplement): "...With six more sequels reportedly in the making (Shatner is scheduled to direct the next two..." Truth? Jason may@husc4.harvard.edu ...seismo!harvard!husc4!may ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 86 15:26:48 GMT From: wchao@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (William Chao <wchao@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU>) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of To clear up some questions you posted on net.startrek, pick up a copy of the paperback book and read thru it. It should answer all of your questions. By the way, the probe is not communicating to the whales (initially yes, later on, no)because it's destroying Earth so that it can start to plant some whales again.(the book makes this quite clear) William Chao wchao@topaz ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 86 20:38:14 GMT From: elxsi!billp@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bill Petro) Subject: Re: STIV & transporting all the time (small-spoilers) ralphw@ius2.cs.cmu.edu (Ralph Hyre) writes: >This makes it less likely to show a nosy person will find out >exactly where the ship is, although it's hard to ignore the dent in >the ground. Did anyone notice that when the wind was blowing, not only did the grass on the ground move, but so did the grass in the 'dent in the ground' which was covered by a multi-megaton cloaked cruiser? Bill Petro {ucbvax!sun,altos86,styx}!elxsi!billp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 86 15:19:47 pst From: ucdavis!clover!hildum@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Hildum) Subject: Some comments (and protential spoilers) on Star Trek IV Regarding the omments made on the formula and glasses: The formula has no physical existence, and is therefore not subject to the nasty problems of time travel. As for the glasses, it is not clear that this would later be the pair that Kirk received. Now, regarding the interaction of 23rd century technology and 20th century technology: Just how much radiation does it take to disable a phaser (even a cheap Klingon night special)? And, on a more musing note: Presumably a transporter creates a fair amount of ionizing radiation? Does this mean that if they transported down near a smoke detector, the detector would go off? (Might blow a nice quite arrival for them...) Sorry about the disjointed message, but I am in a bit of a hurry - the system is going down very shortly for PM. Eric Hildum dehildum@ucdavis (BITNET) hiildum%clover%ucdavis.uucp@ucbvax.berkeley.edu ucdavis!clover!hildum@ucbvax.berkeley.edu hildum%ucd@csnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 86 18:46:16 GMT From: jhunix!ins_adhw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Daniel Wachsstock) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of ins_akaa@jhunix.UUCP (Ken Arromdee) writes: >>Lastly, the *point* of the movie was to teach you something, as ST >>has always tried to do. If you got the point that whales are >>intelligent and should not be mercilessly slaughtered, you got the >>idea. >Yes, I got the idea, and it was one of the most annoying things >about the movie. <...More stuff on moralizing in SF> Actually, according to an interview I read (29 November Newsday, I believe), with Nimoy himself, he really doesn't care much about whales and conservation, any more than he really cares about Star Trek (evidently not a :-) on that); the whales and moralizing were just a plot device, not his deeply-held belief. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Dec 86 17:27:17 GMT From: jpierre@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (John Pierre) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV & Time Travel grant@ukecc.UUCP (Miles) writes: >And what about the Phaser and communicator that Chekov left on the >USS Enterprise (The aircraft carrier, not the spaceship)...Surely >since he left those gadgets behind, our society would have gained a >technology leap. An interesting point: since the Navy officers were convinced that Chekov was a Russian spy...once they got around (if they do) to examining the phaser and learning how powerful and advanced it is, there is sure to be alot of noise in the area of U.S.-Soviet levels of technology. john pierre @mit-eddie.arpa @athena.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: 4 Dec 86 03:48:47 GMT From: gt-stratus!chen@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ray Chen) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >The main plot conflicts are never resolved. That is, what the hell >is this probe, who sent it, why is it trying to talk to the whales, >what is the nature of whale intelligence, what prior contact was >there between the whales and alien intelligence? The lack of any >resolution for these points makes the whole movie as devoid of >authentic plot as the average revenge or war story. Tim isn't the only one asking these questions. My answer??? The absence of information about the probe is a significant part of the theme. All that can be inferred from the movie is that the whales were hunted to extinction and something *cared*. We don't know who or what the something was, or even why it gave a damn, but we do know it cared. The fact that we (and the characters) never find out why adds a touch of humility to the film which is very much in keeping with its "Save the Whales"/Environmentalist/"Show some respect for the universe" theme. It also accents exactly how unknown the universe can be. Ray Chen chen@gatech.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 4 Dec 86 06:09:07 GMT From: crash!victoro@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Dr. Snuggles) Subject: Re: STIV & transporting all the time (small-spoilers) billp@elxsi.UUCP (Bill Petro) writes: >Did anyone notice that when the wind was blowing, not only did the >grass on the ground move, but so did the grass in the 'dent in the >ground' which was covered by a multi-megaton cloaked cruiser? That's what happens when you pull the ground down with fans blowing on it.. ;-) Aren't you gald they thought to trip the grass down? Originally they had the sod a normal height but the miniature trash can looked like it was sitting in heavy weeds... Victor O'Rear {ihnp4,hp-labs!hp-sdd,akgua,sdcsvax,nosc}!crash!victoro crash!victoro@nosc ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 86 14:35:22 GMT From: osu-eddie!jac@rutgers.rutgers.edu (James Clausing) Subject: Re: STIV & transporting all the time (small-spoilers) ralphw@ius2.cs.cmu.edu (Ralph Hyre) writes: >Given that they were using the cloaking device and didn't want to >expose the ship, transporting in seems to be the best solution. If >they use the hatch, it's clear that they're entering something >invisible, as opposed to simply disappearing in a flash of light >anywhere around the ship. This makes it less likely to show a nosy >person will find out exactly where the ship is, although it's hard >to ignore the dent in the ground. Landing in the park was pretty >stupid, but these things were done for 'dramatic expediency' (to >make the movie more interesting), as Jimmy Doohan said in a lecture >a couple of years back. Remember the scene where they leave the ship in the first place, if they open the hatch it is much more obvious that there is something there (even if that only lasts for the short time that the hatch is open). One point that no one else has mentioned yet, is that with the ship cloaked it would be pretty hard to find any external switch or button that opened that hatch, if one exists (think about it, the only time we've ever seen the hatch opened it has been opened from inside the ship, other times when on the ground they just left it open). Even given all of that, how did Spock get back on when there was no one on board to operate the transporter? As I mentioned before, I still loved the movie. Jim Clausing CIS Department Ohio State University Columbus, OH 43210 jac@ohio-state.CSNET jac@ohio-state.ARPA jac@osu-eddie.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: Thu 4 Dec 86 12:43:07-PST From: Judy Anderson <yduJ@SRI-KL.ARPA> Subject: star trek 4 I think the reason I enjoyed Star Trek IV more than I enjoyed the other three is that it did not take itself seriously. It was presented as entertainment, and I was entertained. The others seemed to be trying to be "deep" and failing that, they were pompous. Although I found Scotty's interaction with the Macintosh incredibly hard to believe -- a first time user just doesn't use MacDraw that competently! Judy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 86 16:19:35 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: STAR TREK IV SPOILER ******SPOILER****** Want to bet the reason they decommissioned the Enterprise in TSFS was that they were already building NCC-1701-A? ------------------------------ Date: 4 Dec 86 23:56:07 GMT From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of wchao@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (William Chao <Wchao@topaz.rutgers.edu>) writes: > To clear up some questions you posted on net.startrek, pick up a >copy of the paperback book and read thru it. It should answer all >of your questions. > By the way, the probe is not communicating to the >whales(initially yes, later on, no)because it's destroying Earth so >that it can start to plant some whales again.(the book makes this >quite clear) Boo, hiss. The book is the book, and the movie is the movie. If one is needed for the other to make sense, then someone fell down on the job. Since the movie did not make clear why the thingie from outer space was destroying human civilization on earth, the moviegoer has to find his own answer. Saying "the book gives the answers" is a cop-out. (And, I suspect, just what the publishing people want us to do). ------------------------------ Date: 4 Dec 86 18:14:21 GMT From: inuxm!arlan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (A Andrews) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV & Time Travel > One thing I noticed recently after seeing Star Trek IV was that > for the first time in many time travel movies, Kirk actually took > someone into the future with him. This would leave a major > question mark in the classic paradox of time travel, concerning > the non-existence of "Gillian" (the whale expert) which Kirk took > to the 23rd century. Her family would not exist. And what about > the Phaser and communicator that Chekov left on the USS Enterprise > (The aircraft carrier, not the spaceship)...Surely since he left > those gadgets behind, our society would have gained a technology > leap. Comments about Point #1: Obviously Nature doesn't allow paradoxes (paradice?) so any apparent troubles must be relegated to the null file with Zeno's Paradox and socialism and all the other seemingly real but evanescent phenomena. Point #2: As my first hero in life pointed out in Astounding SF Magazine, a long time ago, just because we have access to future technology doesn't mean we could learn anything about it. Campbell presented the same argument in two different editorials about twenty years apart, but it goes something like this: a jet plane from the 1980s pops through a time warp back in the 1920s. No pilot is around to explain things, but they know it flies. (They saw it land.) There are no vacuum tubes in it, only solid state devices, PWBs, ICs, fiber optics, and the panoply of modern high tech. The 20s scientists and engineers know it's a device from the future, and that it works. Even has names like GE, RCA, NEC, turbines from Pratt & Whitney, etc. The question remains: where do they start in attempting to understand the functions of the aircraft's parts? In the 20s there are no instruments capable of inputting messages to the micros or for interpreting any outputs they might accidentally obtain. Most likely, they'd burn out the solid state stuff. Would they ever think of formulating jet fuel and trying the engines? (Maybe kerosene, but could they even open the tanks?) And on and on and on.... To try to duplicate, maybe even to operate, technology from 300 years in the future, might be an impossible task and probably wouldn't advance us at all. (There is an interesting apocrypal story in Bell Labs that a crashed saucer exists and that an occasional tech type is allowed to try his or her hand at the evaluation we are discussing here. Let's see...UFO crashed in 1946; BTL did the transistor in 1948; US did H bomb in 1952; space travel in 1960s; lasers, ICs, etc....hmmm, couldn't be true, could it?) arlan ------------------------------ Date: 5 Dec 86 17:35:50 GMT From: ucdavis!ccdbryan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bryan McDonald) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV & Time Travel jpierre@eddie.MIT.EDU (John Pierre) writes: >An interesting point: since the Navy officers were convinced that >Chekov was a Russian spy...once they got around (if they do) to >examining the phaser and learning how powerful and advanced it is, >there is sure to be alot of noise in the area of U.S.-Soviet levels >of technology. I was under the impresion that they had been rendered non-functional by the radiation, as seen when Chekov attempted to stun the CIA types. If the were damaged possibly the agents would just write them off as toys and file them (after all, Chekov did have quite a story for them to laugh at :-) Bryan McDonald Univ. of California @ Davis ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 86 01:39:10 GMT From: cae780!alan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Alan M. Steinberg) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV & Time Travel grant@ukecc.UUCP (Miles) writes: >This would leave a major question mark in the classic paradox of >time travel, concerning the non-existence of "Gillian" (the whale >expert) which Kirk took to the 23rd century. Her family would not >exist. I already answered this once, but in case it didn't get through, I'll say it again. Gillian mentions at one point that she has "no one" in the 20th Century. Read "no SO, no children, no family". They may have run a computer check to find out that Gillian had no important descendents. (The Vulcans did provide a full computer library.) Hence, no dent in the fabric of time. The whales transported would have been shot dead, and their yield of a few perfume bottles would not have changed the future significantly. In my books, it was a pretty safe move. Alan Steinberg tektronix!cae780!alan ------------------------------ Date: 4 Dec 86 00:52:35 GMT From: reed!mirth@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: STIV & transporting all the time (small-spoilers) Just how DID that trash can, presumably blown by the downblast of the landing thrusters, manage to end up under the ship instead of at the clearing's edge? Think about it. Mirth. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Dec 86 0906-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #406 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 9 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 406 Today's Topics: Books - Adams (6 msgs) & Heinlein (7 msgs) & Story Request Answered (2 msgs) & Main Character Dying ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Nov 86 18:41:51 GMT From: fai!ronc@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy (mild spoilers) karl@haddock.UUCP (Karl Heuer) writes: >In the first book, the Earth gets destroyed right off the bat. In >the fourth, it's back. Did Adams ever explain this properly? As properly as Adams ever explains anything. He devoted two or three paragraphs to it at the beginning of one of the final few chapters of Goodbye_and_thanks_for_all_the_fish. You can guess who were involved. >Evidently Zaphod was born with two arms, not three. But is his >second head natural? How is it that he had only one head when >Arthur first met him (at the party)? This was not explained, but I got the impression that Zaphod had the second head and third arm attached because he felt like it. Remember when the insect receptionist quivered in rage "Who do you think you are anyway, Zaphod Beeblebrox?" To which Zaphod replys through gritted teeth, "Count the heads." Clearly not many people have two heads. Besides, Zaphod and Ford are both from the same planet, and were even classmates together. Ford looks human. (If you can ignore certain inhuman mannerisms.) >And how many flat-out inconsistencies are there in the series? >Arthur (with fish in ear) should be able to understand any spoken >language, but he shouldn't be able to read them -- I think this >causes several problems. You mean, why is he able to read the Guide, and signs like "Don't be alarmed. Be very frightened, Arthur Dent." I think you just have to put it down as a side effect of the fish. >These are no worse than the endless Star Trek questions. At least it's in the right newsgroup. Cheers. Ronald O. Christian Fujitsu America Inc. San Jose, Calif. seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: 14 Nov 86 19:08:01 GMT From: fai!ronc@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy 6111231@PUCC.BITNET writes: >karl@haddock.UUCP (Karl Heuer) writes: >>Evidently Zaphod was born with two arms, not three. But is his >>second head natural? > >And notice too that Zaphod's grandfather also has 3 arms. (at >least if my memory serves me.) Great-grandfather, I think. But remember the last four generations of Beeblebroxes were the product of an accident with a condom and a time machine. I think his great-grandfather was Zaphod Beeblebrox the IVth, where "our" Zaphod was the Ist. Or something like that. Therefore Zaphod could have made personal choices that propagated to past generations. Isn't this fun? Ronald O. Christian Fujitsu America Inc. San Jose, Calif. seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: 27 Nov 86 19:37:25 GMT From: watnot!javoskamp@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jeff Voskamp) Subject: Hitch Hiker's Trivia As I recall there where several songs that came out shortly after The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, performed by the actors from the series. One that I can recall in particular is "Marvin, I love you" which features the voice of Marvin and possibly Trillian. Does anyone know of any other songs and where one might get a copy of them? Thanks. UUCP : {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,utzoo,clyde}!watmath!watnot!javoskamp CSNET : javoskamp%watnot@waterloo.CSNET BITNET: javoskam@watcsg.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 86 16:15:00 GMT From: willisr@pyr1.Cs.Ucl.ac.uk Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide Trivia Here in England (that little iddy biddy island just off the coast of Europe), there exist several concurrent versions of HHGG on different media. Some of these contradict each other in various ways. With this in mind, I remember hearing a radio series (part of) about 2 years ago of HHGG which has not appeared in any of the 4 books. The particular episode to which I am referring consists of this bird-inhabited planet on the surface of which is a 13-mile high statue of Arthur Dent throwing a teacup at the Nutrimatics drink synthesiser. The teacup is suspended 'by art' ~13 miles off the ground. As far as I remember, for some reason Zaphod is about to fall off the statue and says 'Belgium man, Belgium." The narrator explained that Belgium was the worst obscenity known to civilisation and is only used by loose:tongued people like Z.B. (It was also used on a small land-mass on Earth where the inhabitabnts didn't know what it meant.) In the version of LTUAE what I read, the guy at the flying party won the award for the most gratuitous use of the word F%$#. The word belgium does not appear at all in any of the 4 books. The main point to remember is that the books and radio series are not consistent to the point of consistency. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Nov 86 20:04:35 GMT From: ut-ngp!tmca@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott) Subject: Re: Hitch Hiker's Trivia javoskamp@watnot.UUCP (Jeff Voskamp) writes: > As I recall there where several songs that came out shortly after > The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, performed by the actors > from the series. One that I can recall in particular is "Marvin, > I love you" which features the voice of Marvin and possibly > Trillian. Does anyone know of any other songs and where one might > get a copy of them? Thanks. Then there was the single of the theme tune from the radio series (you know, the one that goes da-da-da-da etc...) which had a rendition of a song by Disaster Area called "Don't Panic - it's only the end of the world again" on the b-side. Unfortunately not along the lines of "Boy meets girl beneath the silvery moon, which then explodes for no adequately explored reason". With regard to getting hold of a copy, the only one I know to exist is my own and I had enough trouble getting hold of that, although the theme tune is also to be found on one of the albums from the series. Tim. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Nov 86 14:48:31 GMT From: C18IO131@NCSUVM.BITNET Subject: re: Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster As a dedicated fan of Douglas Adams, and in hopes of completely the cultural assimilation of the "atmosphere" apparent in the Trilogy, I was and still am hoping to make a Imitation Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster with materials available here on Earth. Does any one have any ideas for suitable substitutes? I was thinking along the lines of EverClear for the "Old Janx Spirit" but I just cant seem to find a good substitute for Algolian Sun Tiger Tooth. Any Ideas? Maybe a net.alcohol.pangalactic? If there is enough response, I'll post the composite composition for all to enjoy and become more "cultured". Allen Pippin, C18IO131@NCSUVM.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 86 21:06:35 GMT From: ubc-cs!manis@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Vincent Manis) Subject: Fantasy vs science fiction Of course, if you're Robert Heinlein, you can explain away the difference between fantasy and science fiction by defining all of your books as accurate records of alternate worlds. That way, you can produce a new book by mixing together all of your previous ones. Even if there are inconsistencies, it doesn't matter. Perhaps the universe in which your hero does X (in one book) is a different one from the one in which the hero does not-X (in another book). Works great if you're too lazy to do decent plotting or characterisation. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 86 08:08:50 GMT From: viper!dave@rutgers.rutgers.edu (David Messer) Subject: Re: Fantasy vs science fiction manis@ubc-cs.UUCP (Vincent Manis) writes: >Of course, if you're Robert Heinlein, you can explain away the >difference between fantasy and science fiction by defining all of >your books as accurate records of alternate worlds. > Works great if you're too lazy to do decent plotting or >characterisation. Or if your writing career has spanned 50 years. I certainly don't begrudge Heinlein the right to try to tie all his works together after all the enjoyment his books have given me. Lazy? No, I don't think I'd use that word to describe a man who was a major force in defining what we today call "Science Fiction." David Messer Software Consultant ihnp4!quest!viper!dave ihnp4!meccts!viper!dave ------------------------------ Date: 28 Nov 86 07:06:57 GMT From: alberta!bjorn@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bjorn R. Bjornsson) Subject: Re: Fantasy vs science fiction manis@ubc-cs.UUCP (Vincent Manis) writes: > Of course, if you're Robert Heinlein, you can explain away the > difference between fantasy and science fiction by defining all of > your books as accurate records of alternate worlds.... > > Works great if you're too lazy to do decent plotting or > characterisation. I take this to mean that as a good example of somebody, that is too lazy to do decent plotting or characterisation, we could pick R.A. Heinlein? Sheesh, ever read "Time Enough For Love", "Stranger in a Strange Land"? I suggest you pick on smaller fry next time, even though Heinlein often recycles characters that I believe fit his philosophy of life. Bjorn R. Bjornsson alberta!bjorn ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 86 20:19:31 GMT From: hoptoad!laura@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton) Subject: Re: Fantasy vs science fiction bjorn@alberta.UUCP (Bjorn R. Bjornsson) writes: >> Works great if you're too lazy to do decent plotting or >> characterisation. >I take this to mean that as a good example of somebody, that is too >lazy to do decent plotting or characterisation, we could pick R.A. >Heinlein? > >Sheesh, ever read "Time Enough For Love", "Stranger in a Strange >Land"? I suggest you pick on smaller fry next time, even though >Heinlein often recycles characters that I believe fit his >philosophy of life. Goodness, are we going to do White Hats and Black Hats again here!? I think that Heinlein did decent plotting an characterisation in Stranger in a Strange Land -- but what happened in *The Cat Who Walked Through Walls*? There is a problem in recycling old characters. Some old characters become old friends. I have read every single Nero Wolfe story ever written. Nero Wolfe is a good friend -- but it means that I read Nero Wolfe mysteries with a very different attitude than I read a new work by another author. I re-read the Wolfe canon because I want to find out what Archie and Wolfe are doing. I want to find out what is going on with them in the same way that I phone up my father periodically and find out what is going on with him. I want to be reminded of them. Now, if Rex Stout hadn't been a fine writer, I don't think that the Wolfe mysteries could have withstood the re-reading I have given them. But I think that Heinlein is a fine writer - and I couldn't re-read the *Cat who Walks through Walls*. It, sadly, was a Funny-once, and not even all that Funny. I didn't feel a need for a blue-pencil on the second pass through *The Cat* I just didn't care. Now, I would dismiss this as me just having a very bad day, but other people have told me that they have had exactly the same reaction. When people simply cannot care about a character -- then the story has not worked. What I think distinguishes the latest Heinlein from earlier Heinlein is a lack of characterisation. Not only is there a shortage of new characters, but the old ones are not as vivid as they were the first time. Right now I am terrified that Heinlein is going to write another book about Mike. Mike is an old friend. I don't want him to be weakened, lightened, and painted with pastel, in the same way that Lazerous Long has been bleached out through the last few Heinlein novels. If you want to write about my friends, fine, but for God's sake write *well* about them! Laura Creighton ihnp4!hoptoad!laura utzoo!hoptoad!laura sun!hoptoad!laura toad@lll-crg.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 86 04:07:34 GMT From: myers@hobiecat.Caltech.Edu (Bob Myers) Subject: Re: Fantasy vs science fiction bjorn@alberta.UUCP (Bjorn R. Bjornsson) writes: >Sheesh, ever read "Time Enough For Love", "Stranger in a Strange >Land"? I suggest you pick on smaller fry next time, even though >Heinlein often recycles characters that I believe fit his >philosophy of life. I take this to mean that you haven't read certain of Heinlein's recent books, which defined all of his books as accurate records of alternate worlds, and were rather lacking in plotting in particular. _Number_of_the_Beast_, for example. I've never seen a plot collapse into chaos quite as much as that one did. Yes, I really liked "Time Enough For Love" and "Stranger in a Strange Land". But not everything he writes is even close to those standards. Bob Myers ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Dec 86 11:18:35 -0500 From: mike@nrl-ssd.arpa Subject: Sequel to _The_Cat_Who_Walks_Through_Walls_ Has anybody heard any reliable information about when Heinlein plans to publish the sequel to this?? (If he dies before he wraps up the the sequel, I'll kill him -:-:) thanks! Mike Stalnaker mike@nrl-ssd.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 8 Dec 1986 14:28:48-PST From: mccutchen%pennsy.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (R. TERRY MCCUTCHEN From: 289-1428) Subject: Heinlein and Nuclear War I would claim that Heinlein is more a Libertarian than a Fascist. I cannot recall any of his stories where he supports a "The Leader" philosophy. Remember that Fascism DEFINITELY does not support an armed populus. Rather it supports the right of the STATE to use force of arms for any reason against the citizen. It claims that the citizen has no right to ever use force against the state. To this end the modern LEFT is much more fascist than the modern RIGHT. This was DDEs problem with the civil rights movement, especially in Little Rock Ak. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 86 19:05:02 GMT From: cpro!asgard@rutgers.rutgers.edu (J.R. Stoner) Subject: Re: Teleportation and lost socks From: "Ira_Newman.ESCP8"@Xerox.COM > Does anyone happen to remember the name of a short story printed > in Analog or Azimov several years ago that explains the invention > of teleportation by discovering why one sock of a pair gets lost > in a washing machine. Yes I remember it. The story was "Washout" by Richard A. Brouse and was printed in Analog in the Probability Zero column in March of 1984. Sorry, but the sock was not just red, but a red-and-blue plaid. J.R. Stoner asgard@cpro.uucp ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 86 03:19:53 GMT From: ukecc!vnend@rutgers.rutgers.edu (D. W. James) Subject: Re: Teleportation and lost socks Ira_Newman.ESCP8@Xerox.COM writes: >Does anyone happen to remember the name of a short story printed in >Analog or Azimov several years ago that explains the invention of >teleportation by discovering why one sock of a pair gets lost in a >washing machine. The socks bit does ring a very vague bell, but I'm afraid I can't help you with that story. One that does come to mind was in the March '77 Analog (Vol.97 no. 3). By Hayford Peirce, it is the fifth or so story in the Chap Foey Rider series, this one entitled "Children of Invention". It explains why the children are never there to help with the dishes... Good luck finding the socks. UUCP:cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend CSNET:vnend@ecc.engr.uky.csnet BITNET:cn0001dj@ukcc.BITNET (but only as a last resort) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 86 23:25:52 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU> Subject: Main character dying In Niven and Pournelle's _Inferno_, the main character dies on the third page. Keith ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Dec 86 0922-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #407 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 9 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 407 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Time Travel (7 msgs) & Physics (2 msgs) & Drinks in SF & Convention Notice & A Christmas Poem ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 3 Dec 86 14:34:42 EST From: Ron Singleton <rsingle@bbncc-washington.ARPA> Subject: Time Travel - what to take A little basic knowledge (in any one of several fields) should be enough. Invent refined sugar, chocolate candy, chocolate chips, or -- **TOLL HOUSE COOKIES!!**, depending on the era you find yourself in. Knowing how to cook, preserve and treat food under primitive conditions would be helpful in most any prior time period. Invent the sword, bow, crossbow, tempered steel, bullets, rifling, dynamite, or anything else to help people kill people. This sort of item has always been in demand. Or armor, moats, stockades, shields, whatever, to prevent the other guy from killing you. These are also in demand! Stake your claim in a place where diamonds, gold, oil, coal, bronze or whatever appropriate material can be discovered. Or on land that will be good for farming or settling when the (insert appropriate time period's word for pioneers) get there. You could trade for it, sell it, or get rich farming it. I agree with the idea of training in martial arts. Remember, the average person today is larger and stronger than most people in previous times. Judicious use of this training should enable survival until your "inventiveness" makes use of force unnecessary. The thoughts about being able to read and write in an illiterate society make a lot of sense too. How about inventing the alphabet? Hot air balloons? This is easy stuff! Depending, again, on what era you find yourself in. Should you be lucky(?) enough to land in "the modern age": Take whatever work you can get, and buy IBM or other appropriate stocks! Invest in things your previous knowledge gives you the advantage in. Support Henry Ford, marry his ugly offspring (if he has any), etc. Gee (no, G*E)! This has been fun, but enough is enough. Next subject: What if you were catapulted into the future? Ron Singleton rsingle@cct.bbn.com ------------------------------ Date: 28 Nov 86 03:11:28 GMT From: lrj@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Lewis R. Jansen) Subject: Re: Re: A new twist on the time travel q markc@hp-pcd.UUCP (markc) writes: >Gold and Aluminum?! I can't wait to hear the reason for taking >your jewelry and pie pans back to the middle ages! Well, the value of gold should be obvious... However, a method for extracting aluminum from the ore was not discovered until (I believe) the late 19th century. This is according to an article in Analog a while back. Sorry, I don't remember the issue the article was in. So, assuming there is a want for aluminum, can you imagine the value of a few ingots? What would someone pay for an aluminum sword? What would someone pay for a decent set of aluminum armour? Would you rather walk around w/ 30 pounds of armour or 10 pounds? I'm not a metallurgist, so I have no real idea of how aluminum compares to iron in holding an edge, tensile strength, or how workable it is... what I DO remember is that it is supposed to be as 'strong' as steel, at 1/3 the weight. Lewis R. Jansen lrj@lasspvax.tn.cornell.edu ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 86 02:01:41 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Aluminum in the Middle Ages lrj@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Lewis R. Jansen) writes: >a method for extracting aluminum from the ore was not discovered >until (I believe) the late 19th century. To use a comparatively recent example: the Washington Monument was capped with an expensive (for the time) metal, which was only to be found in occasional small nuggets because nobody could figure out how to extract it from ore. The metal was aluminum. Brandon S. Allbery 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 ncoast!allbery%Case.CSNET@Relay.CS.NET cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 86 22:14:05 GMT From: reed!mirth@rutgers.rutgers.edu (The Hero Discovered.) Subject: Re: TIME TRAVEL webb@webb.applicon.UUCP writes: >labor of the type that employed so many people then. However, the >clerical skills most 20th century men and women are far superior to >those possessed by your average 17th-18th century laborer. As a >result, there might be a position available in the court of a king >or as an accountant or bookkeeper. Even the simple mechanical >devices that we all take for granted now, and could easily diagram >or reproduce (given resoures) could be worth something 200-300 >years ago. [list of objects]. Yes, clerical skills are useful -- IF you can write in baroque script with quill and ink on parchment. A neat, legible hand was highly prized, and modern cursive doesn't make it. I know, not all writing samples of the 17th-18th centuries are marvels of calligraphy (I'm doing my thesis on the 30 Years War, I am *quite* familiar with letters of the time), but neither were they written by people hired for their clerical skills. Military communiques, for instance, were often scrawled under less than ideal conditions. Accounting, on the other hand, would be _very_ useful. But remember the language barrier -- would YOU hire a German who spoke no more English than "Ver iss bat'room, please?" to keep your accounts and write your business letters? Think about it... Love that time-travel, Mirth. PS BTW, role-playing games are wonderful ways to simulate survival in the past (maybe not accurate, but fun). After all, I gained my interest in the 30YW because I (in a game) banged my head and woke up in 1626, wearing soldier's clothes. The fact that I am a fencer and the GM is my instructor made the results a bit bloodier than is truly likely, but nonetheless I got a thesis topic out of it. Who says RPGs are wastes of time? ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 86 02:38:59 GMT From: hpdsd!campbelr@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bob Campbell) Subject: What to take back in time Maybe it is just a basic philosophy difference here, but when talking about survival in the past, I think that this has gotten a bit off track. Most of the items listed are heavy and could easily be noticed as weird. Meek and light, simple and understandable seem to me the way to go. Knowledge is the best thing to take back. Especially being able to communicate to those around you. You wouldn't need a weapon if you first could make your talents known. History texts and engineering top the list next. Highly recommended are "The Way Things Work" parts one and two. These won't do you much good if you do not understand them however. Explosives could be easily made, but I think you could go a lot further with a knowledge of the history of shipbuilding than you could as a warrior. Even a single US Ranger would run out of bullets. If a weapon is needed, I would like to take a compound bow with aluminum arrows. But instead I would go for a crossbow that looked old, but made the best that could be made. With a single chemistry book you could become rich in synthetic dyes alone. Bob Campbell Hewlett Packard Information Technology Group ------------------------------ Date: 4 Dec 86 05:31:26 GMT From: watnot!ccplumb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Colin Plumb) Subject: Re: What to take back in time For an excellent handling of this issue (well, not quite, but close enough), try Jerry Pournelle's _Janissaries_ series. There are two out, the second with Roland Green, and there should be more forthcoming, as soon as he stops writing all those computer columns. :-) Colin Plumb ccplumb@watnot.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 86 16:02 EST From: <DAC%CUNYVMS1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> Subject: time travel question Greetings and Salutations! Here are some more thoughts about the survival of a time traveler. A lot has been said about the quality of health in the past. It is true that surviving the "plague(s)" will be a major preoccupation for our time traveler. On the other hand, what just about anyone in the 20th Century knows about health care could set them up fairly well as a healer. First, simply knowing how to clean wounds is a big step forward in the medical profession. So is sterilizing (as much as is possible). If you can remember what leaf quinine comes from or where to get cocoa leafs from you could start a revolution in drug treatment. Other bits of healing knowledge that everyone should know are mouth to mouth resuscitation (even if they can't spell it), CPR (if they are all ready dead, banging on their chest can't hurt!). If I remember right, there was a Star Trek where Kirk breathed life back into a little child and was then mistaken for a God. A second general area that could be useful is the use of the wheel and of the lever. It would depend on the general conditions and materials available where ever you where dropped as to how it could be used. However, in some places a wheel barrow or a cart could make alot of difference. Same with water powered water wheels to power generators, grind stones, ect. Like I said, it would depend on the materials and information available as well as the needs of the people around you. Which leads me to my third point. Personally, the most important thing that I would be bringing back with me is the scientific method. I may not know exactly how to figure something out, however, through empirical trial and error and a lot of perspiration and time, I can make something that will make life easier/better. It is true that the biggest problems will be immediate survival, both physically and socially. Knowing how to avoid and not to offend is vital. Another example of this type of story, although with a much different genesis is _The_Practice_Effect_ by David Brin (correct attribution?). I must say I had fun thinking about this one. Great Question! Live long and prosper, Danny Choriki Environmental Psychology Dept. The Graduate School of the City Univ. of New York BITNET: DAC@CUNYVMS1 or NWS@CUNYVM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 86 21:37:36 est From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (L R Brothers) Subject: escape-velocity No, falling objects can't come anywhere near escape velocity -- ever heard of friction? In fact, every medium has a maximum speed beyond which it is essentially impossible to travel -- this is why bussard ramjets don't work too well -- at plasma densities high enough to support the drive, the maximum speed is too low for all the relativistic effects to alter the perceived time-rate of the astronatus on board. Perhaps some aero-astro type out there knows what the maximum velocity through the air at STP is? Of course you can crock together situations where the above is not quite true -- I imagine a falling black hole doesn't care too much about atmospheric friction, for instance (but tidal effects, yes), but I think falling iron rods would attain some maximum speed before they came close to the ground. W BTW, what is supposed to prevent the rods from vaporising on re-entry? Laurence R. Brothers brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu {harvard,seismo,ut-sally,sri-iu,ihnp4!packard}!topaz!brothers ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Dec 86 00:21:18 EST From: ST701135%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: basic physics I am really getting tired of reading postings from people who think that travelling faster than light will cause one to go back in time. The fact is, no material object can travel faster than light. Period. It would indeed take an infinite amount of energy to even accelerate a material object TO the speed of light, and this is definitely impossible. Even if one invokes some other dimension or "hyperspace", there are still causality paradoxes. Incidentally, tachyons have never been shown to exist. Somebody simply pointed out that one could switch the signs on certain equations of relativity and still have a consistent system. And somebody else dubbed HYPOTHETICAL particles that might have such properties "tachyons". Michael McClennen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 86 16:36:53 EST From: Michael Laufer <mlaufer@cct.bbn.com> Subject: Re: Drinks in SF stories Has anyone tried a NINE PLANETS? This may be from an old Heinlein story. It had nine layers of different types of liquor. Each layer was ment to taste like the planet it represented. Pluto first (icy cool) to Mercury last (very hot). It would be interesting to try this but I think it was a VERY potent drink. Michael Laufer mlaufer@bbn.com ------------------------------ Date: 27 Nov 86 10:50:12 GMT From: crash!victoro@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Dr. Snuggles) Subject: Splashdown in San Diego! **** SPLASHDOWN **** Guest of Honor R.A. MacAvoy (Author of Tea With Black Dragon and Twisting the Rope!) Fan Guest of Honor Bill Hisggins (Our token MAD SCIENTIST from Chicago - see how mad!) at ConQuistador IV : Feb 6-8 1987 San Diego's Annula Science Fiction Convention Bahia Hotel, Mission Beach, San Diego California 998 West Mission Bay Drive (619) 488-0551 (Within splashing distance of Sea World) The Site on ConQuistador II PANELS-PROS-FANS-FILMS-MASQURADE-DEALERS-ART SHOW-AND MUCH MUCH CRAZY MORE! ConQuistador Address For Information or Pre-registration P.O. Box 15471, San Diego, Ca 92115 (619) 461-1917 Join us for fandom by the bay! ConQuistador IV - February 6th-8th 1987 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 86 15:53 PST From: PUGH%CCX.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: The Very Last Christmas Twas the Night before Christmas -- The Very Last One (Anon. 1986) 'Twas the night before Christmas -- the very last one -- When the blazing of lasers destroyed all our fun. Just as Santa had lifted off, driving his sleigh, A satellite spotted him making his way. The Star Wars Defense System -- Reagan's desire Was ready for action, and started to fire! The laser beams criss-crossed and lit up the sky Like a fireworks show on the Fourth of July. I'd just finished wrapping the last of the toys When out of my chimney there came a great noise. I looked to the fireplace, hoping to see St. Nick bringing presents for missus and me. But what I saw next was disturbing and shocking: A flaming red jacket setting fire to my stocking! Charred reindeer remains and a melted sleigh-bell; Outside burning toys like confetti they fell. So now you know, children, why Christmas is gone: The Star Wars computer had got something wrong. Only programmed for battle, it hadn't a heart; 'Twas hardly a chance it would work from the start. It couldn't be tested, and no one could tell, If the crazy contraption would work very well. So after a trillion or two had been spent The system thought Santa a Red missle sent. So kids dry your tears now, and get off to bed, There won't be a Christmas -- since Santa is dead. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Dec 86 0849-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #408 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 15 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 408 Today's Topics: Books - Niven (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Nov 86 21:24:49 GMT From: argus!ken@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Ng) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare) writes: > He had to have stasis fields for "World of Ptaavs" so then he > was stuck with those (though it's not clear why you can't make a > hull out of stasis fields. Perhaps you can't make one concave?) I always thought it was because time slows down inside a stasis field. Therefore the naviagation equipment would not be able to work inside of one. And besides, a statis field is supposed to be an almost perfect reflector. Therefore one could not know the status of the outside world from inside the ship. Kenneth Ng Post office: NJIT - CCCC, Newark New Jersey 07102 uucp: !ihnp4!allegra!bellcore!argus!ken !psuvax1!cmcl2!ciap!andromeda!argus!ken bitnet: ken@orion.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 86 01:52:17 GMT From: argus!ken@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Ng) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare) writes: > Referring again to the Sea Statue (which presumably had concave > surfaces) and the variable sword (which had a stasis field which > turned on and off without including the handle, the user, etc., > and which could strike other variable swords without failing) I presume the variable sword was the device Ptaavs was holding when he was found (e.g. the stasis field was still on.). I thought that device worked by negating the polarity of an electron, which caused any matter to fly apart. Kenneth Ng Post office: NJIT CCCC Newark New Jersey 07102 uucp: !ihnp4!allegra!bellcore!argus!ken !psuvax1!cmcl2!ciap!andromeda!argus!ken bitnet: ken@orion.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 86 22:41:27 GMT From: reed!mirth@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? (Stasis Hulls) Sure, a stasis field would (given the right circumstances and implementations, which I won't bore you folks with -- after all, those are being hashed over in the other articles on the subject :-)) be a marvelous hull. But what happens when the power fail? Whoosh, there goes all the air through that cardboard you had as a hull to give the stasis field shape...! (This assumes the standard human behavior of cost cutting. Cardboard is cheaper than metal, and the stasis field doesn't care what's inside it). Mirth. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 86 20:30:28 GMT From: reed!mirth@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? ken@argus.UUCP (Kenneth Ng) writes: >I presume the variable sword was the device Ptaavs was holding when >he was found (e.g. the stasis field was still on.). I thought that >device worked by negating the polarity of an electron, which caused >any matter to fly apart. You are correct in all but names: Ptav (sp?) is the word for a Powerless Thrint -- ANY Powerless Thrint. And the device he was holding was a digging tool, called -- called -- oh shoot. Though I have read all the Known Space books between 10 and 20 times (after reading your mother's SF collection, your friends' SF collections, your library's SF collection, etc., you start again. And again. And again), my memory for names is notoriously poor. So I don't remember the tool's name. I do know, however, that a variable sword is a device which reels out a wire to any length (hence 'variable') between 0 and about 10 feet, encasing said wire in a stasis field to make it rigid and unbreakable (or is it non-stasised Sinclair Molecular Chain wire? I really have forgotten unforgivably much). There is a small red ball on the end of the wire to let the wielder -- and, inevitably, his/her opponent(s) -- know where the 'blade' is. You don't want to cut something important like your own limbs, now do you? Yours, Mirth ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 86 00:00:24 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jim Frost) Subject: Re: Ringworld implausibilities kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes: >allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >>Then of course, there's the superconducting cloth. >>Room-temperature super- conductors are barely plausible; but >>cloth??? Anything flexible enough to qualify as a "cloth" would >>be too thin to handle the trick where they use a strip of cloth, >>one end in a lake and the other hanging over the Slaver >>sunflowers, to ``de-fang'' said sunflowers. > >Waitaminit. Wasn't that a molecule-chain they used, as in Ye Olde >Sinclair Molecule Chain--the strongest (at least, as of Gil >Hamilton's time) piece of thread known to man--not a superconuctor? >As I remember it, the 'chain was what held the night-making plates >together. (For a while.) NO! (twice) The Sinclair chain was used in conjunction with the superconducting cloth to connect the rock to the plate. The Sinclair stuff was fried, but the superconductor lived on. Also, the stuff used to connect the plates was INFINITELY stronger than the Sinclair chain. The "shadow square wire" was very thin and would cut whatever you wanted (except, apparently, _scrith_), while Sinclair stuff needed to be encased in a stasis field to do so (example: variable sword, same book). They are obviously not the same thing. >>BTW -- as far as the protectors go, I lump them in with the "down >>in flames" outline posted a few months ago; protectors, being in >>the center of the galaxy, might well be a danger to the tnuctip >>plan to take over the galaxy. (They would know the truth about >>the Core explosion.) Aside from the obvious (the protectors fled the core explosion), they would not be a threat to either Slaver or tnuctip expansion. As I see it, the Slavers could completely control a protector (it did just fine on a whole city full of humans. Assuming that we are related to protectors, as shown in _Protector_ via Brennan, they would easily control many protectors). The tnuctip, on the other hand, would not be expansionist. We have nothing to indicate expansionist tendencies in the tnuctip. Rather, we see attempt by the tnuctip to free themselves from Slaver domination. Besides this, the tnuctip were master biologists. They bred biological solutions to real problems (even to the point of the Bandersnatchi, whose mind was not affected by Slavers). I feel certain they would outclass Protectors, who were such xenophobes that they exterminated other species even before learning from them. This would be a tremendous handicap when fighting another race that is approximately as intelligent. >(BTW, does anyone know more about this "tnuctip plan" than I do? I >wasn't even sure these guys were still around,...) Most certainly not, aside from their handiwork. They were supposed to have been destroyed at the same time as the Slavers, by whatever tool they used to extinguish the Slaver threat. Jim Frost UUCP: ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs BITNET: cscc71c@bostonu ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 86 19:03:34 GMT From: rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? (Ringworld) dave@viper.UUCP (David Messer) writes: >Proving that we are related to chimpanzees does not prove that we >evolved from them. We don't have many examples of fossilized DNA >so evolution is not proven by molecular biology. We know, however, a great deal about how the genetic mechanism works, both at the chromosome and at the gene level. As a consequence we can say that two organisms that share 75% of their genes are PROBABLY more closely related than two organisms that share 50% of their genes. Most reputable scientists seldom claim to have 'proven' anything; that isn't how science works. We don't have many examples of fossilized human languages either, but linguists can make some solid arguments on the relative relatedness of living languages based on their common elements. It's obvious, for example, that French is more closely related to Italian than German is. We can't PROVE this, but anyone who'd deny the reality of the relationship knows nothing about language. >Natural selection and evolution is widely accepted mainly because >there aren't many competing theorys which don't presuppose a >guiding intelligence (a no-no in science.) You can always presuppose a guiding intelligence to 'explain' natural phenomenon. Doing so explains nothing. I can say until I'm blue in the face that there's a big bearded god named Thor hiding up in the rainclouds making thunder and lightning with a giant hammer and there STILL won't be any such critter. >The evidence for N.S. and Evolution is really rather scanty. That >is why there seems to be a major shake-up in the field every time a >new fossil is discovered. Funny, from my perspective the evidence for natural selection and evolution seems to be overwhelming. And the discovery of a new fossil hardly seems to cause a 'major shake-up' in the field. Maybe you can explain why the evidence is scanty and provide us with some examples of these 'major shake-ups.' Natural selection and evolution fit our observations in the geologic record, and discoveries in molecular biology over the last 30 years have supported rather than conflicted with the notion that shifts occurring in gene pools in response to environmental pressures cause new species to evolve from old species. There are several places where speciation seems to be occurring at a rapid rate NOW (the pupfish in the American west is of great interest to evolutionists for this reason, I think). The tragedy is that the rapid decimation of species due to H. Sap's activities may very well make it impossible for us to study these species before they become extinct. Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 86 04:56:14 GMT From: ee161aba@sdcc18.ucsd.EDU (David L. Smith) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? (Stasis Hulls) mirth@reed.UUCP writes: >But what happens when the power fail? Whoosh, there goes all the >air through that cardboard you had as a hull to give the stasis >field shape...! (This assumes the standard human behavior of cost >cutting. Cardboard is cheaper than metal, and the stasis field >doesn't care what's inside it). Well, since we've got the statis field wrapped around in a bubble with an itty-bitty hole someplace, what you do is put the machinery to run the thing inside of it. Time slows down, power drain is cut, and you've got a perpetual field. You could probably run it off a D-cell. Dave ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 86 15:57:25 GMT From: nike!kaufman@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? (Stasis Hulls) ee161aba@sdcc18.ucsd.edu.UUCP (David L. Smith) writes: >Well, since we've got the statis field wrapped around in a bubble >with an itty-bitty hole someplace, what you do is put the machinery >to run the thing inside of it. Time slows down, power drain is >cut, and you've got a perpetual field. You could probably run it >off a D-cell. *I'd* like to think that the amount of power put into the field generator is (exponentially?) proportional to the amount of time dilation. *If* this is true, then your scheme (cute as it may be) shouldn't work. As time dilates, the current drops, and, like my three-year-old kid said to me just last week, "Gee, Dad, the power of an electrical circuit equals the current times the voltage." The voltage may stay the same (*may*--I don't know that much about stasis fields,...do you? ;-), but the current will drop. Also, I'd like to believe (tho' I have no proof) that you'd need a bigger voltage, even at normal time (outside the ship). On the other hand, I ain't no physicist. Is you? seismo!nike!orion!kaufman ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 86 00:45:50 GMT From: valid!jao@rutgers.rutgers.edu (John Oswalt) Subject: What Larry Niven doesn't know about mathematics Recent discussion about errors in Ringworld remind me of an incident which greatly impressed me (unfavorably) about Larry Niven. At a Westercon in Oakland, about 1975, Larry Niven was on a panel about something-or-other, and in response to a question from the audience, said, "do you know why there will never be a galactic empire?" The questioner said, "no. Why?" "Because the phone numbers in the transporter booths would have to be so long, that nobody could ever dial them." He said this in all seriousness. The audience member said, "but you could address every square meter of every planet surface in the galaxy with just a few dozen digits." Niven looked at Jerry Pournelle, who was sitting in the audience, and asked, "is that true?" Dr. Pournelle looked pretty embarassed, his writing partner showing such ignorance, as he said "yes." "Oh," said Niven. Now, what is remarkable about this, is the complete lack of mathematical understanding on the part of Larry Niven. This is a person who has a degree in Physics, and yet he has absolutely no feel for numbers! I can forgive lack of specific knowledge, but one should have a general feel for such things. I am not as sure about this one, since I stopped reading it after 30 pages or so, but I seem to recall a gaff of similar magnitude in The Integral Trees. These trees are floating around in orbit, see, so people floating around next them just float there. But if the people are standing on the tree then the tree's gravity holds them there. At least that's the way I remember it. The whole situation was just too stupid to be believed, so I rejected the book. John Oswalt ..!hplabs!ridge!valid!jao ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 86 08:18 EST From: Robert W. Kerns <RWK@YUKON.SCRC.Symbolics.COM> Subject: Evolution, Luck & Niven Remember, evolution doesn't always maximize the survival of the individual. It's the >species< that always gets the goodies. Maybe we're a lucky species. Hell, the more you think about it... Anyway, it seems the puppeteers really were selecting for lucky individuals; ones who would win out in competition against other humans. As for it being too fast for evolution: Besides the arguments about the efficiency of selective breeding, consider that evolution is a random process. And Luck is, well, lucky. It wouldn't exactly be lucky for Luck to take a long time evolving, what with a shock wave coming, now would it? It seems that if you're going to let Niven get away with Luck as a Phenomenon (and you hard-hard-core SF dogmatists are SUCH bores), you really can't rationally twit him on anything so non-deterministic as Evolution. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 86 03:29:03 GMT From: vnend@ukecc.uky.csnet (D. W. James) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? (Stasis Hulls) ee161aba@sdcc18.ucsd.edu.UUCP (David L. Smith) writes: >Well, since we've got the statis field wrapped around in a bubble >with an itty-bitty hole someplace, what you do is put the machinery >to run the thing inside of it. Time slows down, power drain is >cut, and you've got a perpetual field. You could probably run it >off a D-cell. That's not a problem. Setting one up and powering it isn't hard given the technology. Note that the stasis fields surviving from the Slaver Era have been on for what? A billion years or so? Powering they is easy. One of the bugs I have with Ringworld is how did they get the field around Liar OFF? Their sensors (and everything else outside the GP hull) were vaporized. How did the ship know it was safe to turn off the field? And again when it crashed into Ringworld. But hey, it was fun and I don't really care. But I do wonder. UUCP:cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend CSNET:vnend@ecc.engr.uky.csnet BITNET:cn0001dj@ukcc.BITNET ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Dec 86 0905-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #409 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 15 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 409 Today's Topics: Films - Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (15 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Dec 86 02:38:12 GMT From: shuju@videovax.Tek.COM (Burgess) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review (art or propaganda) laura@hoptoad.UUCP (Laura Creighton) writes: >I think that what you have hit upon is the difference between >``art'' and ``propeganda''. If you take an art form and use it to >grind your own axe, you are writing propeganda. Do you consider Picasso's "Guernica" (sp?) to be political propaganda? I think of propaganda as a piece of work (whether is writing, painting, film, or any other medium) which was designed SOLELY for the purpose of indoctrinating the people that it reaches. With your definition of 'propaganda', I think it would be very difficult for most artists to express themselves without producing 'propaganda'. >And most of these ideas do not appear to me to be conceived as >``hey, wouldn't it be neat if *this* character had *that* problem'' >but instead as ``wow, I'm going to write something which makes a >strong political statement, and use all of these characters as >metaphors for existing problems, and these places as symbols of >these psychological disorders''. Do you understand the difference? Well, I think if I were to write something about a character who's having a problem that I can not sympathize with, I'll produce garbage. (I might produce garbage anyway, but that's not the point.) I thought the first Golden Rule of writing is to write about something that you know and care about. An artist may overuse symbolism as a tool, but I don't think one can write a good book, paint a master piece, or make a classic film, without having some feelings for the subject. Of course the subjects do not have to be political/social statements, but they are every bit as valid. Shu-Ju Wang Burgess UUCP: {ucbvax,allegra,uw-beaver,ihnp4}!tektronix!videovax!shuju ------------------------------ Date: Sun 7 Dec 86 17:24:24-CST From: LI.BOHRER@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: TREK-4/ Answer(?) to why the probe I would like to start by saying that this really was a pretty good movie. It was gut-busting funny in parts, and McCoy has some of his best lines yet. But I don't care what anyone will tell me, I STILL liked TWoK(2) better. But enough. The way I figured it was that the probe had been sending and receiving messages to/from the whales, and when the messages stopped, it came to check out the situation and see what was up. In fact, I thought they said that in the movie, or anyway, Spock speculated as much. But I've only seen it once, so maybe it's just my projection. Regards, Bill Bohrer ------------------------------ Date: 7 Dec 86 23:47:28 GMT From: sphinx.UChicago!fla7@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bill Flachsbart) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV & Time Travel The problem with the stated and discussed paradox is very simple: In taking someone forwards in time there is no paradox. Their family never existed, or was already born before they were taken forwards. This implies that you couldn't take a person with children yet to be born into the future. See an interesting story on the subject of time travel and altering the past that I read somewhere. It was about a man who tried to prevent the assass- ination of Abe Lincoln, but events prevented it. Time is NOT mutable by this theory. (Also a Twilight Zone episode with the professor from Gilligan's Island) I haven't seen the movie (ST IV) so I don't know for sure if the girl in question had more children in the twentieth century, but it is to be assumed that she did not (*by this theory*) Interested in replies! yours, Bill Flachsbart ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!fla7 ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 86 01:23:51 GMT From: dts@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Danny Sharpe) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV & Time Travel alan@cae780.UUCP (Alan M. Steinberg) writes: >Gillian mentions at one point that she has "no one" in the 20th >Century. Read "no SO, no children, no family". They may have run >a computer check to find out that Gillian had no important >descendents. (The Vulcans did provide a full computer library.) >Hence, no dent in the fabric of time. The whales transported would >have been shot dead, and their yield of a few perfume bottles would >not have changed the future significantly. In my books, it was a >pretty safe move. But recall from City on the Edge of Forever: McCoy prevented what's-her-name from being killed, which let her found a powerful peace movement, which delayed the US's entry in to WWII, which allowed the Nazi's to finish their heavy water experiments and develop the A-bomb first, which let them win the war. Thus did he change history. Odds are, his saving her would not have been documented in anybody's computer records. Question: When Spock was playing back the recording of the time portal's playback of Earth history, he stumbled across two newpaper stories: one told of the death of what's-her-name, and the other, from several years later, told of her meeting with the president. These were from the two alternative histories, one with and one without McCoy's intervention. How did it happen that the playback included both? Danny Sharpe School of ICS Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!dts ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 86 02:55:34 GMT From: vnend@ukecc.uky.csnet (D. W. James) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV -- mini-spoilers mirth@reed.UUCP writes: >On the plus side, the Captain of the Saratoga is very competent, as >is the Captain of the (unidentified, I believe) ship which is >making a solar sail The other vessel (as will doubtlessly be posted several times) was the Yorktown, a ship of the same class as the Reliant. >to collect energy -- and one is a black woman while the other is an >Indian man. So this film is not all that deficient in the equality >department; it just doesn't have a Ripley. > >[...] It's just that by the 23rd C., 20th C. mannerisms will have >vanished. Really? I don't know about that. And in any case, there is sufficient precedent from the series and the movies that they most definitely have NOT disappeared. A bigger meta-blooper is the fact (if you want to stick with it being OUR EArth that they are visiting) is that no-one had heard of Star Trek and the UFP or phasors or... . I don't really count this as a bug, but it does bother me when I see the parts with them walking in down town SF. UUCP:cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend CSNET:vnend@ecc.engr.uky.csnet BITNET:cn0001dj@ukcc.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 86 17:16:09 GMT From: duke!crm@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: STIV & transporting all the time (small-spoilers) mirth@reed.UUCP writes: >Just how DID that trash can, presumably blown by the downblast of >the landing thrusters, manage to end up under the ship instead of >at the clearing's edge? > >Think about it. Okay, here goes -- it looked to me as if the thrusters pointed outward somewhat, i.e. SHIP |_____________________| / \ 1 if the trash can STARTS inboard of the thrusters, e.g. position 1 above, then the side-ways flow from the thrusters is toward the center at 1. once it moves to near the center, it will be approximately balanced in the flow from all sides, and will tend to stay there. Along comes big flat Klingon foot. Crunch. Now it's a gonna STAY there. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 86 02:23:12 GMT From: dasys1!cforeman@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charles F. Foreman) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV -- mini-spoilers mirth@reed.UUCP writes: > On the plus side, the Captain of the Saratoga is very competent, > as is the Captain of the (unidentified, I believe) ship which is > making a solar sail to collect energy -- and one is a black woman > while the other is an Indian man. So this film is not all that > deficient in the equality department; it just doesn't have a > Ripley. *** FLAME ON *** Ok.. enough is enough. I've been catching up with some of the postings on this newsgroup and I've seen TOO many messages about Starfleet bringing back the Constitution class ship just for our saviour Jimmy Boy. The key fact that is obvious slipping by all of you folks is that the ship which makes the makeshift solar sail was NOT unidentified. It was.. you guessed it.. a Constitution class ship! It was the U.S.S. YORKTOWN, NCC-1704 (construction of which was authorized by the original Articles of the Federation on stardate 0965.) Charles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 86 10:16:22 EST From: weltyc%cieunix@CSV.RPI.EDU (Christopher A. Welty) Subject: Star Trek IV Well, I think SOMEONE should represent the other side of the issue. I saw the latest Star Trek on opening day in NY (the day before Thanksgiving - can you say CROWDED?) on a big 70mm with real nice sound all around. So my viewing environment couldn't have been better. I (I don't claim to be unique) had been waiting for this movie for a long time, I made sure not to see any spoilers, commercials, or clips to ruin anything. My true feelings about the whole thing were mixed, I would have to say it was stupid but enjoyable. How anyone could think that story was good is beyond me. I thoroughly enjoyed the dialogue, the interactions between characters, the special effects (with a few exceptions), and the comedic aspect. But the story was STUPID. So stupid that it enraged me, and I'm trying to ebb that anger now so I won't get floods of mail from save-the-whales-mamby-pamby-wimpy type story lovers. I'm not an advocate of whale hunting, or hunting at all for that matter, but I thought the story was pathetic - the ending, especially. It was such a happy-ending-and-the-world-is- great-and-fine-and-dandy-and-isn't-life-wonderful-and-lets-all- rejoice type story I was (and am) wondering if they consulted with the LOVE BOAT writing staff to optomize the happiness of the ending! Where was Julie and Gopher? THE %#$@&*#$! story was IDIOTIC!!!!! Have I said that enough? OK. Some people pay shrinks a couple hundred bucks just to be able to rant and rave like that...*whew*, now I feel better. I still think The Wrath of Khan was the best one. A much calmer, Chris Welty ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 86 17:41:15 GMT From: ted@blia.BLI.COM (Ted Marshall) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) writes: > Boo, hiss. The book is the book, and the movie is the movie. If > one is needed for the other to make sense, then someone fell down > on the job. Since the movie did not make clear why the thingie > from outer space was destroying human civilization on earth, the > moviegoer has to find his own answer. Saying "the book gives the > answers" is a cop-out. (And, I suspect, just what the publishing > people want us to do). Quite true. Unfortunately, it happens a lot, look back to "Alien". In the movie, [female lead character, I forget her name] discovers something that causes her to activate the ship's self-destruct. In the movie, all you see is an out-of-focus shot of a bloody arm. Doesn't seem like much. If you read the book, you discover that what she saw was the missing crew members acting as food for the developing next-generation of the monsters. I understand that that shot was in the movie but ended up on the cutting room floor. Oh well. Ted Marshall @ Britton Lee, Inc. UUCP: ...!ucbvax!mtxinu!blia!ted ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 86 13:40:51 PST From: dbj@Juliet.Caltech.Edu (David B. Jemison) Subject: Star Trek IV - Nurse Chapel I have now seen ST4 twice (agreeing with almost everyone that it is by far the best st movie). While watching the opening credits the second time, I noticed a "Commander (?) Chapel" with (I thought) the same actress who played Nurse Chapel in the series. However, neither my friend or I remembered seeing her in the movie. Does anyone know where she appeared, or did I just imagine it (my friend noticed it also)? Dave Jemison ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 86 23:00 PST From: William Daul / McDonnell-Douglas / APD-ASD From: <WBD.MDC@OFFICE-1.ARPA> Subject: STAR TREK IV and GREENPEACE I just had a thought...perhaps my last one for 1986. I think GREENPEACE ought to try to by the rights to the one frame in the movie where the Klingon ship is right above the Whaling Whessl (as Chekov would say!). I still get a big smile on my face when I think of that image...the ultimate protection of the whales. I am sure that an appropriate caption could be added to the photo. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 86 10:03:14 PST (Wednesday) Subject: STAR TREK IV From: "Ira_Newman.ESCP8"@Xerox.COM I was wondering if any biology/ecology types might have any insight into whether the ecological system of the 23rd century would support a couple of humpback whales. With their extinction, would their food supplies, etc. necessarily still be available? Ira Newman ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 86 10:30 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Star Trek IV Cotton candy. It tasted sweet, but had little substance. It was fun; a taste treat, especially for those with a big sweet tooth. My own tolerance for sweets is limited. Lots of the questions raised on the net are good ones. For another, okay, forget the probe: how does Uhura pick up whale song? The whales are in the ocean, the ship is in space, and there's no transmitter, right? Somehow, the ship is detecting sound waves? All I get from fellow fans is, "Well, this is the 23rd century. Science used to say it was impossible to go over 20 miles an hour." Etc. Etc. *argh* I admit, a lot of my response to the movies has to do with my love of the series and the passage of time since I first saw it. As a teenager, ST's occasional preachiness never bothered me: sometimes I didn't get the message and other times I was delighted with the "liberal" messages "snuck" in. Now, a movie hollering "Save the Whales" really annoys me. Perhaps what bothers me most about the movies is the shift I see from the logical to the emotional. In the series, Spock was Logical, trying to hide or at least control his emotional half. In most of the movies, he's busy seeking it out. And when he's not, everyone's shaking their heads over him. In the series, there always seemed to be some attempt to understand what was going on (a difference between ST and Space:1999, too. How often does ST end with a bridge scene where they're speculating on what happened? How often does Space:1999 end with a Mission Control scene where they say, "Wow, wasn't that amazing and beyond comprehension"?). The movies seem much more emotional: let's cry over Spock and Enteprise and maybe even David, let's have compasion for the whales. Well, we can't really understand V'Ger, Genesis, Time Travel or the Alien Probe because we're from the 20th century. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 86 17:34:32 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Spock Did anyone else notice that his voice is back to normal, instead of using the artificial (Vulcan) intonation from TWOK? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 86 17:32:03 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Music in STIV Someone was commenting on the music in the movie. A friend of mine called it "Wild West music", or something to that effect. GR called Star Trek "Wagon Train to the stars", and he told the composers to "give him CAPTAIN BLOOD." Do I detect a return to the original in the music as well as the acting? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Dec 86 0920-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #410 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 15 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 410 Today's Topics: Books - Adams (2 msgs) & Blish & Dick & Pohl & Spiegleman & Van Vogt & Blood of Ten Chiefs & Story Requests (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Dec 86 14:47:45 GMT From: hadron!jsdy@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Joseph S. D. Yao) Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy P5S@PSUVMB.BITNET writes: >> In the first book, the Earth gets destroyed right off the bat. >> In the fourth book, it's back. Did Adams ever explain this >> properly? >I'm not positive, but I thought that the mice (or somebody) merely >recommisioned it's creation (I can see the Fundamentalists up in >arms already :-) ) ... Well, yes, but the re-commisioning was stopped half-way through. It was actually the dolphins who re-created it as a sentimental gesture to all the humans they'd trained. (So Long & al.) > Oh, and about Zaphod's extra complement of limbs and such: I am >pretty sure that one of the books said that he had them surgically >added. That's what he told Ford when he picked up F & A on the Heart of Gold. When was the last time y o u believed someone like Zaphod Beeblebrox? By the bye, in actual fact the radio show, television show, play, record, books, and (rumoured) movie all had different plots. This was deliberate. To drive us all up the walls. That's perhaps the whole point of the HHGttG: it's so delightfully and totally batty and off-the-wall and meaningless. Or something. But DON'T PANIC. Oh, there was a book issued that had the scripts of the radio series (as ad-libbed). That was the exception. Joe Yao hadron!jsdy@seismo.{CSS.GOV,ARPA,UUCP} jsdy@hadron.COM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1986 04:29 EST From: Brent C J Britton <Brent%Maine.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> Subject: Hitch Hiker's Trivia watnot!javoskamp@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jeff Voskamp) writes: >As I recall there where several songs that came out shortly after >The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, performed by the actors from >The series. One that I can recall in particular is "Marvin, I love >you" which features the voice of Marvin and possibly Trillian. >Does anyone know of any other songs and where one might get a copy >of them? Thanks. Some of the HHGttG television episodes were aired on PBS here a few years back. I don't recall from the credits, but I believe that the theme music used was some version of _Journey_of_the_Sourcerer_ by the Eagles. Brent C J Britton Brent@Maine.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 86 19:33 CST From: "David S. Cargo" <DSCargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> Subject: In Joke Question (BLACK EASTER) The following is extracted from the Dell edition of BLACK EASTER by James Blish (Dell 0653, First Dell printing July 1969, pages 123-124). The names are those of white magicians answering a summons of some urgency. > Luckily, Father Uccello had been able to come. So had Father > Montieth, a venerable master of a great horde of creative (though > often ineffectual) spirits of the cislunar sphere; Father Boucher, > who had commerce with some intellect of the recent past that was > neither a mortal nor a Power, a commerce bearing all the earmarks > of necromancy and yet was not; Father Vance, in whose mind floated > visions of magics that would not be comprehensible, let alone > practicable, for millions of years to come; Father Anson, a > brusque engineer type who specialized in unclouding the minds of > politicians; Father Selahny, a terrifying kabalist who spoke in > parables and of whom it was said that no one since Leviathan had > understood his counsel; Father Rosenblum, a dour, bear-like man > who tersely predicted disasters and was always right about them; > Father Atheling, a wall-eyed grimoiran who saw portents in parts > of speach and lectured everyone in a tense nasal voice until the > Director had to exile him to the library except when business was > being conducted; and a gaggle of lesser men, and their > apprentices. It seems relatively clear to me that the Vance referred to is Jack Vance, and that Anson is Robert Anson Heinlein. Boucher is probably Anthony Boucher. What I would like to know, is who is being referenced by the other names. Are there any other writers buried in there? And if so, and for Boucher, just what aspect of their works are being referred to? I found BLACK EASTER to be very interesting reading, especially the Author's Note in the front. I don't see this kind of throw-away in-joke all that often, so I would like to know what this one is all about. David S. Cargo DSCargo at HI-Multics ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 86 15:18 EDT From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire Subject: P.K. Dick Biography Has anyone heard about - I'm serious - a biography of Phillip K. Dick that was recently done by underground cartoonist Robert Crumb? I only heard about this second hand through the P.K.D. Society newsletter. It sounds like a bizarre enough little oddity, that I'd like to get it, especially considering my fondness for Crumb's work. Dan Parmenter Hampshire College ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 86 19:51:27 -0500 From: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU> Subject: Philip K. Dick's death Philip K. Dick died in the spring of 1982 from a stroke (or complications from one). His health was never very good and he did not take very good care of himself either. Regardless, his death was sudden, and a great loss to the sf community. The boom in PKD publishing continues. THE COLLECTED STORIES OF PHILIP K. DICK is scheduled to appear early next year in a set of five volumns from Underwood/Miller. This contains ALL of PKD's short fiction (most of which was published early in his career). Also, there are a few items published for the first time and plenty of material that has not yet been reprinted. PKD wrote a number of "mainstream" novels early in his career that were not published. Most have survived and a few have been published since his death. HUMPTY DUMPTY IN OAKLAND was published recently in England, and another "mainstream" novel is scheduled for mass-market publication in the U.S in the spring. There will then be only 3 known PKD manuscripts for novels awaiting publication. These are likely to appear by the end of the decade. For anyone interested in reading PKD for the first time, I recommend the novels that have been reprinted by DAW in the last few years (and are probably available in bookstores if you're willing to explore). Donald Wollheim published most of PKD's early novels during the late 50's while at Ace books. The DAW books represent a good selection of PKD books. UBIK is a personal favorite. Frank Hollander ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 86 18:32:53 GMT From: valid!jao@rutgers.rutgers.edu (John Oswalt) Subject: What Frederik Pohl doesn't know about mathematics This is even worse than Larry Niven's ignorance. In "The Gold at the Starbow's End" , first printed in Analog, March 1972 (which thereby casts doubts on Ben Bova's mathematical knowledge), and reprinted in Pohl's collection of the same name, we find this: "Godelized language. A system of encoding any message of any kind as a single very large number. The message is first written out in clear language and then encoded as bases and exponents. Each letter of the message is represented in order by the natural order of primes -- that is, the first letter is represented by the base 2, the second by base 3, the third by base 5, then 7, 11, 13, 17, etc. The identity of the letter occupying that position in the message is given by the exponent: simply, the exponent 1 meaning that the letter in that position is an A, the exponent 2 meaning that it is B, 3 a C, etc. The message as a whole is then rendered as the product of all the bases and exponents. Example. The word "cab" can thus be represented as 3 1 2 2 x 3 x 5, or 600. (=8x3x25.) The name "Abe" would be represented 1 2 5 by the number 56,250, or 2 x 3 x 5. (=2x9x3125.) A sentence like 'John lives.' would be represented by the product of the following 10 15 8 14 0 12 9 22 5 19 27 terms: 2 x 3 x 5 x 7 x 11 x 13 x 17 x 19 x 23 x 29 x 31 (in which the exponent '0' has been reserved for a space and the exponent '27' has been arbitrarily assigned to indicate a full stop). As can be seen, the Godelized form for even a short message involves a very large number, although such numbers may be transmitted quite compactly in the form of a sum of bases and exponents. The example transmitted by the Constitution is estimated to equal the contents of a standard unabridged dictionary." This number was given a little earler in the story: 354 852 2008 47 9606 88 1973 + 331 + 17 + 5 + 3 + 2 take away 78. This is another situation where a basic feel for numbers (or just common sense) will immediately spot the flaw: how can you represent several million characters of information with about 50? (Using a more limited character set, yet.) By taking advantage of the redundancy in dictionaries, you could probably reduce the number of characters by a factor of 100, maybe even 1000, but a million? Gimme a break. In the example above the number expressed as a sum is clearly nowhere near big enough to express the product of several million different primes. Besides this, which requires some understanding (though not much), Pohl doesn't even seem to know that anything to the 0th power is 1, so his spaces go away. "The Gold At The Starbow's End," Copyright 1972 by the Conde Nast Publications, Inc. The collection "The Gold At The Starbow's End," Copyright 1972 by Frederik Pohl. John Oswalt amdcad!amd!pesnta!valid!jao ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 86 15:18 EDT From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire Subject: P.K. Dick Biography Although it is only very very arguably fantasy, I cannot praise Art Spiegleman's 'Maus' highly enough. It is basically the story of the holocaust told through the point of view of animals. The Jews are mice, the Germans are cats. Although only tenuously fantasy, it is brutally honest and very moving. Another point of interest is that Spiegleman is apparently attempting to sue Steven Spielberg whose 'An American Tail' bears more than a passing resemblance to 'Maus', albeit without the latter's frank brutality. Further proof that Steven Spielberg is slowly but surely killing originality in the American Cinema. Dan Parmenter Hampshire College ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 86 18:46:02 GMT From: iwm@doc.ic.ac.uk (Ian W Moor) Subject: Re: Earth's one immortal man beach@msudoc.UUCP (Covert Beach) writes: > A couple of days ago I got into a discussion with someone about >the "Weapon Shops of Isher" by A.E. VanGoght (sp?) and I was >reminded about a mysterious character who was never explained. He >was only called Earth's one immortal man or something like that. I >believe it also said he founded the Weapon Shops. Was this >character ever developed in any other book or was he just a plot >coupon? There is a second book "The Weapon Makers of Isher" which develops and explains (sort of) the immortal. I am sure I saw a novella or short story based on the first book, then the first book, then the second. I dont know if the story came before or after the first book, but I should read both books as well as the story. Ian W Moor UUCP: seismo!mcvax!ukc!icdoc!iwm ARPA: iwm%icdoc@ucl Department of Computing Imperial College. 180 Queensgate London SW7 Uk. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 86 05:40:34 GMT From: kathyli@miro.Berkeley.EDU (Kathy Li) Subject: Blood of Ten Chiefs, Vol. I : A Review _Blood_Of_Ten_Chiefs_Vol._I_ put out by Tor. Edited by Robert and Lynn Asprin, and Richard and Wendy Pini. Stories by : Lynn Abbey, Piers Anthony, Robert Asprin, Diane Carey, C.J. Cherryh, Mark C. Perry, Richard Pini, Nancy Springer, Allen L. Wold, Janny Wurts, and Diana L. Paxon. This joint Thieves-World/Elfquest undertaking has come out from Tor in trade paperback size, with various writers undertaking to write within the Elfquest universe in Thieves World shared-universe style. It works, after a fashion. The Elfquest world was introduced in the black and white WaRP (Now WaRP/Apple) comics which were reprinted in color volumes and in four-color comics. One of the main characters of the series, Cutter is also known as The Blood of Ten Chiefs, being the eleventh chief of his elven tribe. His adventures are well chronicled by Wendy and Richard Pini in the original comics series (as well as the new series now being put out by WaRP/Apple). His ten ancestors played no great role in the series, but were named, and writers have itched to tell their stories as well. The result is Blood_Of_Ten_Chiefs, a collection of ten short stories, one for each of Cutter's forebears. All of the stories are satisfying, but tend not to be overly creative. The structure imposed upon the writers have limited them in certain ways, and they haven't yet learned to work well within it. The stories are hampered by this. I also have a few personal quibbles with the interpretaion of the World of Two Moons by a few of the writers, rather like when I'm reading Star Trek novels. I mean, no one mentions trolls anywhere, EVERYONE's Recognizing with the wrong people, and I don't care if Piers Anthony is supposed to be good, Prunepit is no name for a Wolfrider, and Wendy didn't draw any illustrations!! :) Despite all of this, the stories, on the whole, are good. Lynn Abbey's and Nancy Springer's were my favorites. If you are an Elfquest-fanatic, this book is probably a must buy. If you are a Thieves' World fanatic (of the series as it NOW stands) you'll probably also like this--after you've read the Elfquest comics. For the rest of you, however, it's something to look into...when it comes out in pocketsize. Kathy Li ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 86 00:16:43 GMT From: jhunix!ins_adjb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Daniel Jay Barrett) Subject: Story request -- Gift shop I read a short story over 10 years ago -- can anyone identify it? I will try to describe it with a minimal number of spoilers. A man discovers a gift shop he has never seen before. However, it is really a Gift shop (capital "G"), and the Gifts you receive are actually attributes bestowed upon you. The man wishes for the Gift of Rhyme. Hereafter, everything he says rhymes. He is not so sure he likes this Gift, so he returns to the shop and wishes for a second Gift (I don't remember what it is). This second Gift turns out to be more a Curse than a Gift. I recall that he uses a very clever trick to rid himself of this second Gift. It seems that Gifts are not returnable: only exchangeable.... Can anyone tell me the title and author? I really got spooked by this tale. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 86 23:01 EDT From: KROVETZ%cs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET Subject: title request (children's sf) I'm trying to find the name of a book I read about 20 years ago. I don't remember very much about it except that it's basically about a kid who communicates with a girl on another planet. I think he communicated with her via a television set and that she was somehow able to come to visit him. The most striking thing I remember was that the girl had black hair except in the front where it was silver. Does this ring a bell with anyone? Thanks, Bob krovetz@umass.csnet krovetz@umass.bitnet ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Dec 86 0944-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #411 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 15 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 411 Today's Topics: Films - The Empire Strikes Back (2 msgs) & Liquid Sky & Dune, Television - SF on TV & Star Trek (2 msgs) & Star Blazers (2 msgs) & Dangermouse, Miscellaneous - Time Travel (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Nov 86 01:42:42 GMT From: jc3b21!larry@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Lawrence F. Strickland) Subject: Empire Strikes Back & Don Juan I just finished watching 'The Empire Strikes Back' on cable (stop that snickering back there) and it brought to mind a question that I asked years ago and could never get any answer. When Yoda was teaching Luke about 'The Force', he gave a little soliloquy on the force as an 'ally'. One of the things he said was that we were all "...luminous beings...". Both the words 'ally' and 'luminous being' brought back to mind a set of books published in the '60s to 80's about a mexican brujo. The set started with _Don Juan: A Yaqi Way of Knowledge_ and continued for about six books (so far). The gist of the series was about Don Juan (a Yaqi indian) trying to teach a westerner to become 'A man of knowledge'. Key to becoming such was gaining an 'ally' (through means of Datura root and/or mushrooms) and learning to 'see' which involved seeing people as luminous eggs with many tentacles of power. These items seem awfully close for just an accident. Does anyone know if Lucas or others on the staff were guided by these books? Lawrence F. Strickland Dept. of Engineering Technology St. Petersburg Jr. College P.O. Box 13489 St. Petersburg, FL 33733 Phone: +1 813 341 4705 UUCP: ...akgua!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry ------------------------------ Date: 5 Dec 86 14:49:23 GMT From: duke!crm@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Empire Strikes Back & Don Juan larry@jc3b21.UUCP (Lawrence F. Strickland) writes: >When Yoda was teaching Luke about 'The Force', he gave a little >soliloquy on the force as an 'ally'. One of the things he said was >that we were all "...luminous beings...". > >Both the words 'ally' and 'luminous being' brought back to mind a >set of books published in the '60s to 80's about a mexican brujo. >The set started with _Don Juan: A Yaqi Way of Knowledge_ and >continued for about six books (so far). The gist of the series was >about Don Juan (a Yaqi indian) trying to teach a westerner to >become 'A man of knowledge'. Key to becoming such was gaining an >'ally' (through means of Datura root and/or mushrooms) and learning >to 'see' which involved seeing people as luminous eggs with many >tentacles of power. That's "Yaqui" and Mexico is pretty far west in these here parts, pard'ner. But seriously, folks, it happens in Star Wars too -- when Obi Wan is teaching Luke, he talks about the Force as "mumble mumble interpenetrating everything mumble." Luke says "then it controls our actions?" and Kenobi says "yes, but it also obeys our commands." Sorry I can't quote it precisely from memory, it's been a couple years. Anyway, that also is almost word for word something don Juan says to that pig-headed anthropologist. Ten years? It can't be ten years... that'd make me Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 86 15:37 PDT From: "R.G.GARGOVICH" <"FOLSM2::RGG%sc.intel.com"@RELAY.CS.NET> Subject: one you might not have seen... Ran across this vidio in the local gas station/vidio place. "LIQUID SKY" The story is set in the punk society of New York city. It is about a punk girl who is a model and her roommate who is a drug dealer and there friends. The SF comes in when an ET, that gains by absorbing opium-like chemicals that are present during the human orgasm, finds some fast food at our star's penthouse apartment. A West-German scientist is hot on the trail of (the) 'ET', armed with his telescope he hunts down the beast and tries to save the heroine. (not heroin) This is not what you would call a skin flick, there is no skin to speak of. There is however a lot of language and pseudo-sex. This isn't a GREAT flick but may be worth a buck or two. I can get more information if anyone is interested. RGG ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 86 12:09:20 GMT From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) Subject: Dune the movie I'm fairly new to this game so no flames if this has come up before (please!) I heard a rumour somewhere that Dune the film, although cut down for general release was also available to cons and the like complete with the full plot done almost page by page. Is this true and has anybody seen the film if it does exist? I'm not knocking the released version it's just that you can't get to much of a good thing. Thanks in advance Piers PS I've just remembered in a book of Frank Herberts short stories there was something in it on his views on the film, and in that he mentioned that it might be released, full length as a mini series on the box. True or just speculation? ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 4 Dec 1986 14:04:03-PST From: mccutchen%nuhavn.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (R. TERRY MCCUTCHEN From: 289-1428) Subject: SF on television There are two SF television shows that I haven't seen anyone mention. One stared Andy Griffen (sp?) and was named something like SALVAGE 7. The other was a Jack Webb production where they did various UFO sightings (I don't remember the title, maybe PROJECT BLUEBOOK) Terry ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 86 21:43:25 GMT From: sgreen@hera.cs.ucla.edu (Shoshanna Green) Subject: David Gerrold on Star Trek: The Next Generation Star Trek: The Next Generation: David Gerrold was at LosCon, in LA, over Thanksgiving weekend to talk about this new tv series. The following is a summary of what he said. It is reconstructed from memory, so trust me but not implicitly. (Someone else who was there assures me I haven't made any howlers.) Gerrold will be creative consultant as soon as they have a production staff; they apparently can't have someone with that title until they have a production staff, so currently he's just a consultant. Gene Roddenbery is producing it; also associated with it are two people who were closely associated with the original show, I believe as producers or some such. I did not recognize their names, and so don't remember them; several people in the audience appeared pleased to hear their names mentioned, however. The show should be on the air in fall 1987. It is being done directly for syndication, not for a network; this means that Paramount has direct control over it instead of having to do whatever the network owning it wants, but also means that they have to spend their own money instead of a network's to make each episode. The series will be offered first to the stations which have carried the old Star Trek all these years, as a sort of "thank you" to them. Many may not be able to afford it; Gerrold says that they will be able to buy the series with commercial time, which Paramount will then turn around and sell, if they can't come up with the cash. The new series will take place 150 years after the original Enterprise's famous "five year mission". In fact, the ship will be the Enterprise, NCC 1701-G, the seventh of that name. (Someone in the audience pointed out that this would actually be the eighth, since the first didn't have a letter after the number at all; she was shouted down by cries of "Forget it, let him talk!") At the time of the first Enterprise, four percent of the galaxy had been charted (note that that's "charted", NOT "explored" or "visited".) 150 years later, the Federation has charted nineteen percent of the galaxy. That's an _astounding_ amount of space, folks, but still leaves plenty of unknown territory. The seventh Enterprise is about twice the size of the original Enterprise; when asked about the size of its crew, Gerrold repeated this and said "so you figure it out." The series is meant to be a return to the original purpose of the five-year-mission. Gerrold talked about many people, including some of the writers of the original shows and many of the novels since then, having forgotten that the Enterprise is not a military ship, but an exploratory vessel. The new series is meant to be a return to this. Someone asked if the ship would be a Star Fleet vessel; Gerrold answered that it would be a Federation vessel. The questioner kept presssing for details; would it be military or civilian? Gerrold's response was, "Your thinking is locked into military and civilian. Can't there be another way?" This got a lot of applause. The ship will be a scientific, exploratory vessel, he said. Certainly, when it is needed there will be a clear chain of command, so that when necessary the ship can react with military efficiency; but the ship is a community, not a military ship. Asked if that meant there would be families and children aboard the ship, he did not answer directly but said nothing to the contrary. One audience member asked what sort of society sends children out to face that kind of danger; other people pointed out that the ship is not meant to go looking for trouble, and that the pioneers brought their children with them. Gerrold echoed these comments. Asked if we would be seeing the captain abandoning his ship every week, as Kirk was wont to do, Gerrold answered that we would see a restructuring of the system and that the question wouldn't apply. The series is still very much unformed. They have not yet decided just who the main characters are. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 86 18:21:49 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Niven and Star Trek In the animated season of Star Trek, there was an episode (I forget the name) which used the Kzin. Were these the same beings that Niven uses? st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 86 05:19:38 GMT From: buchholz@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Elliott Buchholz) Subject: Star Blazers Question Can anyone out there tell me if they've heard of a spoof of Star Blazers, sometimes shown at cons, called "You Say Yamato"? A friend told me about it a few years ago, and I've been trying to either find a copy, or someone else who knows of its existence. Any help would be appreciated. Thanx. Elliott Buchholz ARPA: buchholz@topaz.rutgers.edu buc@blue.rutgers.edu Snail: RPO 4014 CN 5063 New Brunswick, NJ 08903 ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 86 15:59:15 GMT From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Star Blazers Question buchholz@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Elliott Buchholz) writes: > Can anyone out there tell me if they've heard of a spoof of Star >Blazers, sometimes shown at cons, called "You Say Yamato"? > > A friend told me about it a few years ago, and I've been trying >to either find a copy, or someone else who knows of its existence. Yeah, I've seen it. It was done by Phil Foglio (What's New, Myth Adventures, Buck Godot, and D'Arc Tangent) and Mike Smith (an East Coast conventioneer-- did 'The Snit of Khan' (as in, 'walking off in a snit') and (I think) 'Bambi meets Godzilla', and 'Bambi's Revenge'). [Floating off in space, Kodai trying to look like he's in control of the ship. Then, this glitch got into the copy we had. The tape resumed on the next scene, where the enemy (one or another Comet Empire) is attacking.] Kodai: "Where did they come from?!?" Officer: "Sir, they must have come in under the glitch!" It was fabulous! Unfortunately, I think you can only get a copy from one of it's creators. Oh, well, maybe Foglio will be in town,... Or, as always with Japanimation, you *can* check with the C/FO. (You can email me for more info on the NYC chapter, if you want.) seismo!nike!orion!kaufman ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 86 09:22:02 GMT From: sphinx.UChicago!tra4@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jonathan H. Traum) Subject: Re: Dangermouse (was Re: SF TV) mike@rlvd.UUCP (Mike Woods) writes: >Do you realise that here in Britain Dangermouse is screened at >4:30pm on children's TV; oh the folly of it all! ITV actually think >it's a programme for kiddies. It is on in Chicago at 4 pm, also on children's TV, which wouldn't be so bad, except for those HORRIBLE commercials. If you think commercials are bad on adult television, you should take a look at children's TV. It almost ruins the fun of watching Dangermouse, the worlds greatest secret chicken, and his agenthearted assistant, Penfold. (sorry. that should be "Dangermouse, the world's greatest secret agent, and his chickenhearted assistant, Penfold.) Jon Traum ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!tra4 ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 86 23:09:43 GMT From: jhardest@Wheeler-EMH Subject: Time TRavel Folks, The back and forth discussion of time travel fails to take into consideration that the creature called man is a short lived creature. Yea, you can go back in time say 700 hundred years, take with you the sum of the knowledge of the twentieth century. But, upon your death, say 40 to 50 years after your travel back you die and take with the knowledge of the twentieth century. The most logical idea is to travel to a region that is very open development of your order. If it looks like the students are learning, go to a new geographical location of that time period and do it all over again. Do not teach your students/diciples everything at once. As the school has generation and generation of students have them go forth and help their society. By the time you have established ten to twenty of the House of knowledge, return to your century and see the fruits of the accomplishments. If say you would start just after the Ravaging of Europe by the Norseman fifty years apart - yet give them a commen secret language - you would probally advance the technological base of the human race twice-fold and also the social/economical base as well. Return to the twentieth century as the direct descendant of the founder. Include in all the orders that the direct descendant will receive a portion of the monies generated for the order. In the twentieth century,you would be the most powerful person. But, then again, what if you return to the home time and find out the world had blown itself late in the nineteenth century - during the reign of Napolean. Things to teach your order Medicine Law Econonics Military Science Chemistry Bio-Chemistry Botany Astronomy Philosophy Oceanography Navigation Geology Metallurgy Cartography This is what I would do if I could travel thru time... John Hardesty BBNCC, Hawaii jhardest@ wheeler-emh ------------------------------ Date: Sat 13 Dec 86 21:53:17-EST From: LINDSAY@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: re: Time Traveller's Kit Several people have brought up the idea of modern medical knowledge. Gee, don't you guys watch St. Elsewhere ? Patients still die ! Just how good do you think you are at explaining that your magic doesn't always work ? Not to mention the jealousy of the local practioners, who were usually also the local priests. All in all, I would rank "being a doctor" with "shooting at passers-by" as a technique for getting myself killed. And for those who assume that they could profit from their efforts, let me tell you about the "orrery". You see, there was this inventor, and he built a clockwork model of the solar system. The fourth Earl of Orrery saw it and told his friends about it. The name of the inventor has been lost, because, you see, he wasn't a noble. And just how long do you think there's been a patent office ? Packing a kit bag for the future is a more nebulous proposition. I recommend reading "Dr. Futurity", by Philip K. Dick ( Copyright 1960 by Ace Books; my copy is half of Ace Double D-421.) A time-travelling doctor lands in the future - and in Chapter IV is arrested for committing medicine. Best to find a functional lucky charm, I guess ... Don Lindsay ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Dec 86 0959-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #412 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 15 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 412 Today's Topics: Books - McDevitt & Sagan (2 msgs) & Sentient Computers (10 msgs) & Post Holocaust Stories & Main Characters Dying (2 msgs) & Continuity ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Dec 86 23:35:31 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: THE HERCULES TEXT by Jack McDevitt THE HERCULES TEXT by Jack McDevitt Ace, 1986 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper Well, here we have another first novel by an author (who has written some short fiction). Like CONTACT, it deals with first contact with alien intelligence. (Terry Carr points out in his introduction that McDevitt wrote THE HERCULES TEXT before CONTACT was published.) Like CONTACT, contact is first made via radio messages. Unlike CONTACT, deciphering the messages is done in a most illogical fashion. Where Sagan concentrated on the scientific aspects of first contact, McDevitt is more concerned with the social and political. The political climate in THE HERCULES TEXT is more convincing than in CONTACT, being set only a dozen years in the future (before the Millenium). (The only unrealistic touch is having a female president, but then, who knows?) In McDevitt's novel, the contents of the message are a chip in the continuing East-West poker game. The information being sent by the Altheans, rather than the specifics that Sagan deals with, is more encyclopedic and, as with all knowledge, carries with it responsibility. Where Sagan's characters are very trusting in following the Vegans' suggestions, McDevitt's are far more suspicious, far more cautious, and far more realistic. The political machinations form the major part of the novel and the scientists are not as well drawn as in CONTACT. Neither are the religionists--I think Sagan shows a much better understanding of them than McDevitt, who remembers the Book of Kells but forgets the burning of the Mayan codas or the Incan quipus. As with CONTACT, THE HERCULES TEXT leaves one with the feeling that McDevitt had an almost-great novel, but bobbled it at the end. THE HERCULES TEXT is disappointing only in that it could have been great, but instead is "merely" very good. McDevitt's handling of the background and characters indicates that future works by him should be very good indeed. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 86 23:34:05 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: CONTACT by Carl Sagan CONTACT by Carl Sagan Simon and Schuster, 1985 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper Well, here we have a first novel by an author (who in this case has written a fair amount of non-fiction). If anyone should be able to write a "first contact" novel showing realistic scientists, Carl Sagan is that person. And in fact he does a fairly good job. A message is discovered coming from Vega. Sagan spends a lot of time showing how the message would be deciphered in the classic way: the transmission would consist of a number of ones and zeroes, the number being the product of two prime numbers. Therefore the bits could be arranged in a rectangular matrix in only one way (well, actually two, but it's easy enough to decide which one gives useful information). One wonders, though, if beings from another star won't have some equally obvious (to them, at any rate) method which baffles us entirely. Anyway, back to the novel. While Sagan understands science, he shows less comprehension of how politics works, and the political scenario he paints is unlikely, to say the least. His main character, Eleanor Arroway, is vaguely reminiscent of Asimov's Susan Calvin and somewhat stereotypical of female scientists (or perhaps even scientists in general). There is, of course, the convenient financier to foot the bills for the contraption that the aliens want us to build, etc. In fact, there isn't much that new in this novel. Even so, everything works together and keeps the reader moving right along, until.... Unfortunately, Sagan runs out of steam with his ideas of what an actual meeting with aliens would be like. What should be the exciting culmination of the novel falls flat. Perhaps it's just an idea that has been done so dramatically in science fiction that a more low-key portrayal seems mundane by comparison. The conclusion--almost an afterword, really--is clever, though the characterization and motivation suffer badly in this section. All in all, not a bad novel, and certainly better than many of Sagan's detractors would have predicted. Sagan's nomination for the J. W. Campbell Award for Most Promising New Writer was, however, a bit much. Call him rather a competent new writer. (Hey, these days, that's not such a bad thing!) Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 86 04:52:08 GMT From: kastin@husc4.harvard.edu (jonathan kastin) Subject: Re: CONTACT by Carl Sagan Just one comment to add about Sagan's _Contact_: it's cluttered with reams of excess verbiage. I got the distinct impression that Sagan was trying to impress his readers with his vocabulary. It got a bit annoying at times. I thought it was pretty good, though, and I liked the encounter with the aliens. Jon ------------------------------ Date: 4 Dec 86 16:43:24 GMT From: jkw@lanl.ARPA (Jay Wooten) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels (progress Subject: report) >> One of the best sentient computer novels I've read is "Colossus: >> The Forbin Project" by D.F. Jones. It was written in the 60's >> and was part of a trilogy. > > Nope. That was the name of the movie. I think the book was > simply titled "Colossus", but I'll scrounge around on my > bookshelves and see if I can find my copies. I believe that there were also 2 sequels to Colossus. In the first, people managed to defeat Colussus only to find that Colussus had been preparing to defend itself and the Earth from an alien invasion. The second was about overcoming the aliens. My recollections on these are pretty hazy and I don't recall titles. Jay Wooten Los Alamos National Lab jkw@lanl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 5 Dec 86 04:24:34 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels (progress Subject: report) marc@hpltca.HP (Marc Clarke) writes: >> One of the best sentient computer novels I've read is "Colossus: >> The Forbin Project" by D.F. Jones. It was written in the 60's >> and was part of a trilogy. > > Nope. That was the name of the movie. I think the book was > simply titled "Colossus", but I'll scrounge around on my > bookshelves and see if I can find my copies. I sit here with a book that says on the binding "COLOSSUS (THE FORBIN PROJECT) D.F.Jones" on the front cover it says in a box COLOSSUS by D.F.Jones then below it in much bigger letters THE FORBIN PROJECT At least on the cover it is hard to tell what the title is, though on the inside it is simply called COLOSSUS. And the title of the film was both COLOSSUS: THE FORBIN PROJECT and more simply THE FORBIN PROJECT, depending on the release. Actually, I think it was TFB first and then C:TFB. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 86 23:33:48 GMT From: ucdavis!ccdbryan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bryan McDonald) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels (Colossus) Actually, if I remember right it was just Colossus first (I think). I read a copy of it back in '78 or something like that and I remember it just as Colossus. The other two were called (again, I think) _The Fall of Colossus_ and _Colossus and the Crab_. ****SPOILER mildly**** In the _Fall_ Forbin and others end up crashing the computer with a "what happens when an immovable object is struck by an unstopable force" type of algorithm provided by a mysterious source from outer space that in the last book turns out to be a computer similar to Colossus in origin from Mars (original, huh). Anyways, this is just from memory, so take it with a small grain of salt. By the way, has anyone else read _Lords of the Middle Dark_, Jack Chalkers latest series? It should go on this list of sentinent comp. novels, although it is just 1 of many to come. Not to spoil this one, it is an interesting premise involving the computer take over and returning Earth to primitive standing from which they try to revolt. Not too bad. Bryan McDonald Univ. of California @ Davis ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 86 12:00:15 GMT From: bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels (progress Subject: report) SPOILER WARNING... jkw@lanl.ARPA (Jay Wooten) writes: >I believe that there were also 2 sequels to Colossus. In the >first, people managed to defeat Colussus only to find that Colussus >had been preparing to defend itself and the Earth from an alien >invasion. The second was about overcoming the aliens. My >recollections on these are pretty hazy and I don't recall titles. No. In the second book (The fall of Colossus), Colossus is switched off with the help of the aliens. In the third book, (Collosus and the crab), The aliens start to steal earth's atmosphere before things get relly silly. In the end, Colossus is re-activated to defeat the aliens and the message is delivered that Colossus is needed to look after Humanity until Humanity is old and wise enough to look after itself. The exact opposite point of view given to that in the first book, and in the film. Bob Gray ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 86 17:54:29 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels (Colossus) ccdbryan@ucdavis.UUCP (Bryan McDonald) writes: > Actually, if I remember right it was just Colossus first (I > think). I read a copy of it back in '78 or something like that > and I remember it just as Colossus. Absolutely. It was first COLOSSUS. Then the film was made called THE FORBIN PROJECT. Then a book tie-in was published and that is the book I was describing. The tie-in book just wanted the potential buyer to be aware that the the book was associated with the film. It did not retitle the novel, but the cover was designed to look much like the title was COLOSSUS (THE FORBIN PROJECT). That is how the original poster might have become confused as to the actual title of the novel, an understandable mistake. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 23 Nov 86 22:32:45 GMT From: usc-oberon!cochran@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Steve Cochran) Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels There is also all of the "Robot" stories by Isaac Asimov (their 'positronic' brains seem to fit the definition of a sentient computer), and the Minerva/Athene and the Dora computers in Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love." Steve Cochran USC-IRIS ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 86 23:59:41 GMT From: marc@hpltca.HP (Marc Clarke) Subject: Re: Canonical sentient computer list Have we mentioned Sabberhagen's (sp?) Berserkers, the sentient computers programmed to destroy all life in the universe? Marc Clarke Hewlett-Packard Loveland, Colorado ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 86 15:30:34 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Sentient Computers Has anyone mentioned Multivac, from Asimov's "The Last Question"? This computer eventually absorbed all intelligent life in the universe and became God. st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Dec 86 19:05:01 EST From: Jeremy Bornstein Subject: Those Darn Sentient Computers Again Has anyone read _Valisystem_A_, by Philip K. Dick? I believe that this is one of these novels-- although I'm not sure that the book which was -supposed- to be called _Valisystem_A_ was actually published (posthumously) with the title _Radio_Free_Albemuth_. I haven't actually read either of these, as I found myself a little TOO transformed from a P.K.D. craze over the summer. (I found myself imagining alien Cthulhoid space ships landing on the roof of my apartment building and coming down to GET ME IN THEIR SLAVERING FANGS and make me work for the rest of my life as a therapist for crazed coffee machines and 'stat machines, front doors, and the like.) No, I'm Really Perfectly Fine Tonight, Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 86 15:43:56 pst From: Mark Redican <vallejo!mark@tsca.istc.sri.com> To: vallejo!sf-lovers%red.rutgers.edu@tsca.istc.sri.com Subject: Re: Sentient Computers Here are two possible candidates for the list: "Destination Void" by Frank Herbert : about the attempt to create a partially organic computer. It was very boring and I never finished it. "Cybernetic Samuri" by ?? : I saw this in the book store the other day. It's a story about a super-intelligent super-computer that could take over the world if not restrained by the Samuri ethics instilled into it by its creator. Or something along those lines. Mark ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 86 23:29:58 GMT From: mmintl!warrenm@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Warren McAllister) Subject: Re: TIME TRAVEL vnend@ukecc.UUCP (D. W. James) writes: > For a good example of what it might be like, read "The >Anubis Gates", by Tim Powers. In it an English Professor gets >stranded in 19th Cen. London. He survives, though it is as much by >luck as anything else. It is a good read anyway you look at it >though. I must agree with D.W. James - "The Anubis Gates" was the best thing I read last year... By the way, on the continuing subject of Post Holocaust Novels, try "Dinner at Deviant's Palace' also by Tim Powers ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 86 09:47:24 PST From: Bruce_Schuck%SFU.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Dying main characters In John Varley's trilogy about GAEA I believe the female lead character dies off and is resurrected. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 11 Dec 1986 09:34:09-PST From: lary%ssdevo.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Rowrbazzle!) Subject: Re: main character dying In "UBIK", by Philip K. Dick, **** SPOILER WARNING **** all (or almost all) of the main characters die about one-fourth of the way into the book, it just takes them the rest of the book to figure it out. Also, in "Counter Clock World" by the same author one of the main characters is dead at the beginning of the book, but since biological time runs backwards throughout the book that may not count. Philip K. Dick himself, a main character in one of his own stories, is now dead. I miss his stuff..... Richie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 86 13:30 EDT From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire Subject: cohesive universes Heinlein and Asimov have made their stories fit into more cohesive universes. 'Shared World' Anthologies seem to be getting more popular. What does this mean? Why are SF and Fantasy authors worshipping the idol of 'continuity'? I have a theory. It could be that sf and fantasy authors are realizing what comics writers figured out long ago, that you can sell more material by having it all tie in together. Fans are notorious continuity buffs. Look at the popularity of the series 'Crisis on Infinite Earths' and the resulting 'History of the DC Universe'? Today's writers both in comics, and sf/fantasy are of the 'continuity generation' of writers. How long will it be before we see a little banner on the cover of the latest SF paperback that touts the book as 'Heinlein Tie-in'? Anyone have any comments on this obsession with continuity? Dan Parmenter Hampshire College ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Dec 86 1012-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #413 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 15 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 413 Today's Topics: Films - Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Dec 86 23:38:15 GMT From: noao!stoner@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jeff Stoner) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV -- mini-spoilers cforeman@dasys1.UUCP (Charles F. Foreman) writes: >and I've seen TOO many messages about Starfleet bringing back the >Constitution class ship just for our saviour Jimmy Boy. The key >fact that is obvious slipping by all of you folks is that the ship >which makes the makeshift solar sail was NOT unidentified. It was.. >you guessed it.. a Constitution class ship! It was the U.S.S. >YORKTOWN, NCC-1704... An interesting point. If I remember ST3 correctly, the <Enterprise> was being retired because it was 'over 20 years old'. And think of the pounding, battle damage, structural overstrain, and other damaging acrobatics Kirk and Co. had put the ship through. Scotty may be a miracle worker, but... What's to say that Fleet Command hadn't looked at the latest structural integrity scans of the Big E and said "Yuck--scrap iron!"? Just because <Enterprise> is being retired doesn't automatically mean the entire rest of the <Constitution II> class has to be, too. Admittedly, Star Fleet Commander Morrow (in ST3) was drooling over the <Excelsior> as being the 'wave of the future'... but remember the <Wodin>, a DY-500 (nearly 2 centuries old) ore freighter that the "Ultimate Computer" blew away in the TV series? Star Fleet seems to keep useable ships on duty as long as they are able. Also remember that <Enterprise> was the first or second ship to undergo the upgrade to <Constitution II> status (ST1)-- new warp engines, exposed flux chamber through the engineering area, improved bridge, etc. <Yorktown> was done later and therefore probably improves on problems encountered in redoing <Enterprise> (think about how the current US shuttles' framework and systems have been greatly improved by the time of construction of <Atlantis>--totally different heat-shielding material being the first example to mind). <Yorktown> obviously is still on patrol and normal duty station, not drifting in scrap orbit over San Francisco. Jeff L. Stoner {ihnp4, seismo, hao}!noao!stoner Public Information Assistant CompuServe 71535,2043; Source BDB 970 ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 86 02:46:30 GMT From: hoptoad!tim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of I don't see what the book has to do with it. The movie was advertised as a complete story in itself. It wasn't a complete story - the plot was based on unexplained and apparently arbitrary events. I could write a movie in which a 90-foot-tall giant comes along and starts kicking through army bases demanding the rare alloy mesopatamium, generating conflict for the characters to play against, but this would not really be a plot; and neither was the story of ST IV. This whole bringing up of the book seems rather dunderheaded. There is no Star Trek world with its chronicles in books and movies. There are only Star Trek stories. Sometimes there are connections between them, but each has to stand on its own as a story. Another Star Trek story could resolve a reasoning flaw in other ST stories, such as why everyone looks human in most episodes being explained by the episode with Sargon; but this cannot rectify *story* flaws in other stories. It also happened to be a great movie, for the reasons I already stated. Tim Maroney {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 86 15:30:08 est From: bhs@mitre-bedford.ARPA (Sobelman) Subject: ST IV, what else? ***** I DARE SAY THERE WILL BE SPOILERS TO FOLLOW ***** To comment, or not to comment. (sigh) I know there must be boatloads of mail coming in on the latest and greatest, but I can't resist putting my two cents in (yes, we still use money here). To join the general consensus, I loved it - as much the second time as the first. They finally seemed to be having fun again - definitely much more like the old series episodes. I just have a question or two to pose to the forum: 1. I know there's some debate about the "thingee" (god, I love technical terms) and why it came to earth and all, but what I missed was how everybody knew right off the bat that it was a probe and not some new doomsday machine or weird ship or something. 2. Does George Takei age, or was it just a good makeup job? 3. Anybody know what the "Cetacean Institute" is in real life? I'm from northern Cal., but I can't think of any similar marine institute in the area (except Marine World/ Africa USA in Vallejo); then again, I guess it doesn't necessarily have to be anywhere near N. Cal., does it? 4. What drugs were they on when they thought up the various extraterrestrials for the Federation Council? (A friend suggests that they scouted at the bar from Star Wars. . .) OK, enough for now. Pardon me for avoiding the more serious and/or technical issues everyone has been discussing (saving whales, beaming into ships, male chauvinism, etc.) - I had too much fun with it to want to analyze it that much. I feel fine, too, Spock - thanks. Bev Sobelman bhs@mitre-bedford.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 86 17:19:53 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Equality in the 23rd century On the face of it, there is equality. However, if you think about it, Uhura is the only black character (not counting Lokai) who doesn't have serious problems one way or another. Daystrom is a computer genius, but we see him have a breakdown after designing an apparently sentient computer that enjoys destruction (not death, though). Captain Alexander of the Saratoga loses her ship in a Kobayashi-like scenario. The Indian captain also loses his ship. (No flames please, maybe they weren't "lost") I don't remember M'Benga's episodes, which might be another indication... Harry Morrow refuses to let Kirk go after Spock's _katra_ because "he never understood Vulcan mysticism." Am I reading too much into this? st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 7 Dec 86 15:33:50 GMT From: dasys1!cforeman@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charles F. Foreman) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of All right, I'll admit you can probably have more fun speculating about why the probe was destroying Earth than by doing something boring like reading the book and getting a definative answer. But that's like trying to use a complex computer system without reading the manual because "boo, hiss" the system is the system and the manual is the manual. You know what someone on the net would say on comp.unix if you asked questions like this without reading the manual? They'd say RTFM (read the f**king manual). Well, I say RTFB! Star Trek books have always gone into much more detail than the movies. Like Sulu losing command of Excelsior in ST II.. like David Marcus being in love with Saavik thru it all.. like Sulu meeting his great-great-great grandfather in ST IV, and like a fuller explanation of the probe. I'll tell you why you don't get the full story behind the probe in the movie. When's the last time you heard the ramblings of a narrator in any ST production? The substitute for that is the Captain's Log. Now, nobody knew anything about what the probe was trying to do, except the probe. A Captain's log couldn't explain it. You would have to have a narrator saying "The traveller sang. Amid its complexities.." Fine. But that's not Star Trek. Charles ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 86 23:01:01 GMT From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of cforeman@dasys1.UUCP (Charles F. Foreman) writes: >All right, I'll admit you can probably have more fun speculating >about why the probe was destroying Earth than by doing something >boring like reading the book and getting a definative answer. But >that's like trying to use a complex computer system without reading >the manual because "boo, hiss" the system is the system and the >manual is the manual. You know what someone on the net would say on >comp.unix if you asked questions like this without reading the >manual? They'd say RTFM (read the f**king manual). Well, I say >RTFB! There are two interesting questions here. 1) Is the movie/book computer/manual analogy a good one? I do not think so, for a variety of reasons. a) When you buy a computer, you get the manuals. When you buy a movie ticket (or rent the tape), nobody throws in the book. b) many great movies have been made based on books, that didn't require you to read the book in order to enjoy the movie. "To Kill A Mockingbird" comes to mind ("2001" does too, but I expect some dweeb to tell me I couldn't have made full sense of that movie without having read the story). c) I think movies tell stories. Suppose I was telling you a story about a space thingie which mysteriously came to earth and started destroying things, and you asked me why was it doing that? If I said I'm not going to tell you, you have to read my book explaining that, would I be telling you a good story? I don't think so. If I gave you some hints and had you think about it, and you came up with your own answers, and they were reasonable, then I have done a much better job at storytelling. d) The paperback is not likely to survive as long as the movie. How many folks out there still have the Star Wars book? Do you think it will be easy for someone renting the tape to get his hands on a copy? If you think that is true now, how about 20 years from now? 2) Do good computer systems require manuals to operate? My Macintosh doesn't. The only manual I bothered even looking at was the one for my C compiler. I just tried the rest out, and played around with it. Televisions don't need manuals, why should computers, or for that matter, movies? ------------------------------ Date: Thu 11 Dec 1986 09:51 CST From: <EDPX026%ECNCDC.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> Subject: Star Trek IV I've watched people post messages on the way that STIV presented the issue of saving the whales. I personally believe it is possible that the it was NOT just the whales that they were presenting, but all social issues. I beleive they picked one of the most well known issues to make a more general point about social issues: the decisions that we make today may have a devastating effect on the world of tomorrow. This goes for almost all social issues, from abortion to whales (couldn't think of a issue starting with a X,Y or Z). Ed Lorden ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 86 17:04:20 GMT From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >I don't see what the book has to do with it. The movie was >advertised as a complete story in itself. It wasn't a complete >story - the plot was based on unexplained and apparently arbitrary >events. 'Unexplained'? Yes. But can't that be said about *any* movie? Certainly, the people who made the Rama starship in "Rendevous with Rama" were never explained. Does that mean it's not a good book? Or, stepping outside of sf for a second, how about those nights where it just *has* to rain so the character can: a) get into a crash; b) have that beautiful scene with the leading lady. Sure, you can tell me, 'But that's a force of nature. It rains all the time." But, I say the alien ship is *also* a force of nature. Sometimes, things _just_happen_. Now, if you said, "Why the hell does Kirk/Spock/McCoy do *that*?!?", that I could empathize with you on. A main character must never do something unexplained. BUT, the ship isn't a character, it's a plot device. If any of the aliens appeared in the movie, if they got so much as one word, THEN I'd want an explanation. Look: IF you assume that there are some aliens out there that have technology beyond our wildest dreams, AND that they're on speaking terms with our fish for whatever their reasons, THEN, in the words of Joe Jackson, "What makes you think they give a sh*t about you? Who are you, anyway?" Why would they even bother noticing us, much less explaining themselves? As far as I'm concerned, the movie *was* complete. Sure, I want to know the fish's angle in the Big Scheme of Things, but then, I don't even know my own. Why should I be allowed to know theirs? >I could write a movie in which a 90-foot-tall giant comes along and >starts kicking through army bases demanding the rare alloy >mesopatamium, generating conflict for the characters to play >against, but this would not really be a plot; and neither was the >story of ST IV. Ah, but the alien ship demanded *nothing* of us. It didn't say, "Bring me your fish." It didn't even acknowledge us. >This whole bringing up of the book seems rather dunderheaded. >There is no Star Trek world with its chronicles in books and >movies. There are only Star Trek stories. Sometimes there are >connections between them, but each has to stand on its own as a >story. THAT I can agree with. But I think the movie *did* stand on it's own. In fact (Now, note: I haven't read the book, but) if the book *does* explain the aliens, or even that little ball at the end of the probe, I'd probably like it less for it. Also, I'd like to point out the obvious: that there are real and practical reasons for not putting anything about the aliens in the movie. The first is time. Read the book and tell me if you finished it in two hours. If it's worth reading, you probably didn't. The book format allows the writer to say things he just plain doesn't have time for in a movie. The second is that a movie, in the interest of the gibbering hordes,..ahem, the average man, tends to focus on a single, small group of people. That's why Brunner's "The Sheep Look Up" and Niven/Pournelle's "Lucifer's Hammer" will never be made into films. For this movie, the focus is the ex-crew of the Enterprise. Maybe, somewhere, there's a bunch of aquatic aliens watching a movie about "The Search For George and Gracie and their Unborn Pup", but I wouldn't pay five bucks to see it. seismo!nike!orion!kaufman ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 86 18:58:42 GMT From: sgreen@hera.cs.ucla.edu (Shoshanna Green) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV & Time Travel dts@gitpyr.UUCP (Danny Sharpe) writes: >Question: When Spock was playing back the recording of the time >portal's playback of Earth history, he stumbled across two newpaper >stories: one told of the death of what's-her-name, and the other, >from several years later, told of her meeting with the president. >These were from the two alternative histories, one with and one >without McCoy's intervention. How did it happen that the playback >included both? Well, if this happened on the Guardian's planet, as I believe it did, the playback could include both for the same reason that the characters remained there when their civilization, the ship that had gotten them there, and quite possibly their parents had just winked out of existence or changed beyond recognition (the difference is moot); namely, the Guardian's planet is somewhat immune to the effects of the Guardian on history. But not completely, which is why the new record is there too. But really, let's face the fact that time-travel stories which allow the possiblity of altering history are inherently contradictory. There is NO WAY to get around the paradoxes, so just enjoy the story and accept that it's all motivated by plot requirements, not logic. Shoshanna Green ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Dec 86 0818-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #414 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 16 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 414 Today's Topics: Books - Niven (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Dec 86 05:38:08 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Misunderstanding of my reference to tnuctipun and DIF madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) writes: >kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes: >>allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >>>BTW -- as far as the protectors go, I lump them in with the "down >>>in flames" outline posted a few months ago; protectors, being in >>>the center of the galaxy, might well be a danger to the tnuctip >>>plan to take over the galaxy. (They would know the truth about >>>the Core explosion.) >> >>(BTW, does anyone know more about this "tnuctip plan" than I do? >>I wasn't even sure these guys were still around,...) > > Most certainly not, aside from their handiwork. They were > supposed to have been destroyed at the same time as the Slavers, > by whatever tool they used to extinguish the Slaver threat. I was referring to a story outline by Larry Niven (DOWN IN FLAMES). The title refers to what Niven does to our knowledge of the Known Space universe... The (real) background is that Niven decided that there were too many inconsistencies creeping into his stories, and decided to exploit them by turning the past history of Known Space inside out. He never wrote the actual story, and I don't know if he ever intends to, but the outline was fun. If anyone's interested, I have it on tape somewhere. [SPOILER, if you care!] In DOWN IN FLAMES, it turns out that Kzanol is a "plant" made by the tnuctipun, who want to hide the true facts about themselves. (The part about their being superb manipulators of genetics is correct, though; Kzanol was engineered.) It was primed with the story about the thrintun and the (fake) tnuctipun and placed where humans (and, via the humans, all other intelligent species) would find it. As a result, a false history was seeded. The tnuctipun turn out to be the forefathers of the kzinti. In fact, there are tnuctipun "hiding" among the kzinti, and they engineered the kzin-human wars (and their loss by the kzinti) to make humans and others believe that the kzinti (and therefore the tnuctipun among them) could not be a danger. They started the story of the core explosion and got the puppeteers' help in faking the flight of the Long Shot (? -- I don't remember precisely), probably in return for letting the puppeteers be. Their intent was to lay in wait as the inhabitants of the galaxy fled the "Core explosion" and capture and enslave them as they tried to get out of the galaxy. However, they slip up somewhere and Beowulf Shaeffer gets on their tail. (Larry Greenberg points out that the kzinti look an awful lot like tnuctipun...) The protectors are shown to be at least partially dupes; Bey eats tree-of- life and becomes a protector. (How old is he by now?) The outline ends around there; discussion of it, the puppeteers' involvement, its impact on the theory that the Grogs are the descnedants of the thrintun, etc. continued for a month or so thereafter. I don't have any of that saved, but ask your friendly neighborhood SF-Lovers archive site... Some possible endings were posted as well. One of them was that someone (Bey again?) decided to go see the truth about the galactic core -- and, lo and behold, it was in fact exploding. (Irony to you, tnictipun!) Note that this was merely a story outline; it was never turned into a real story, it is not part of the "official" Known Space canon, and it was by no means fully "debugged". It *is* interesting, however. Brandon S. Allbery 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 974 9210 before 10:15am or after 8:00 pm ..cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 86 15:14:17 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Integral Trees "mistake" jao@valid.UUCP (John Oswalt) writes: > Recent discussion about errors in Ringworld remind me of an > incident which greatly impressed me (unfavorably) about Larry > Niven. [example displaying "innumeracy" in guestimating teleport > address codes] Yes, a legitimate boner. But the next example, intended to show how REALLY stupid Niven is, just shows John wasn't paying attention: > I am not as sure about this one, since I stopped reading it after > 30 pages or so, but I seem to recall a gaff of similar magnitude > in The Integral Trees. These trees are floating around in orbit, > see, so people floating around next them just float there. But if > the people are standing on the tree then the tree's gravity holds > them there. Oh, foo. Easily within the first 30 pages it was explained that the trees were tidally stabilized in their orbit, and that one, indeed, floated next to the tree at the middle. But at the ENDS of the tree, one had to hang on, or the tides would fling one away. Simple, straightforward, explained early on and easy to get used to. > At least that's the way I remember it. The whole situation was > just too stupid to be believed, so I rejected the book. Yeah. Right. Well I'll tell you what *I* reject! I rej... (oh what's the use? GWSmith already pointed out that Niven ain't that bad mistake-wise... he's about average for "hard sf" authors.) But, some of the other corrections need correcting too, and I'm just the fool to do it! So onwards! > ee161aba@sdcc18.ucsd.EDU (David L. Smith) > Now, the tree is several kilometers long, so that either end of > the tree is moving at a different speed from the center (since the > trees were lined up radially.) The force that throws one away from the ends of the trees indeed incorporates a "centrifugal" component as tediously explained in the late, unlamented "tides" discussion recently in sci.physics. But pointing out that the tree rotates isn't the best way to show that one would be pulled from the ends of the tree. The tree wouldn't have to be spinning, or in orbit, or anything... one would STILL be pulled by tides, which both try to pluck one from the ends of the tree, and keep the tree stable and spinning synchronously to boot (if it is in orbit). Which brings us to another slight mistake: > The atmosphere is also the reason why the trees are lined up > radially, since the pressure on the ends is balanced when lined up > radially (they would not line up radially in a vacumn). Nonsense. The atmosphere is trying to spin the trees in the OPPOSITE direction they are actually spinning. The tides hold the trees stable AGAINST this wind, thus producing the "integral shape" that gave the whole shooting match its name. The trees would, indeed, still be lined up radially in a vacuum. (Of course, they'd be dead in a vacuum, but that's another problem...) > Therefore the gas further in is moving more quickly than the gas > further our, which explains why the trees are radial to the mass > they're orbiting around Again, this doesn't explain it at all, since the tree, being radially aligned, is moving more slowly close in than far out, the opposite of what the atmosphere does. The gravity gradient anchors it in place AGAINST this wind. Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 86 19:37:54 GMT From: vnend@ukecc.uky.csnet (D. W. James) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? mirth@reed.UUCP (The Hero Discovered.) writes: >ken@argus.UUCP (Kenneth Ng) writes: >>I presume the variable sword was the device Ptaavs was holding >>when he was found (e.g. the stasis field was still on.). I >>thought that device worked by negating the polarity of an >>electron, which caused any matter to fly apart. > >You are correct in all but names: Ptav (sp?) is the word for a >Powerless Thrint -- ANY Powerless Thrint. And the device he was >holding was a digging tool, called -- called -- oh shoot. [...] So >I don't remember the tool's name. In reality (or should it be 'in SFity'? :-) the device he was holding was indeed a digging tool, but it was NOT a variable sword. It was the first (only?) working model of a slaver disintegrator found. And it did (supposedly) work by negating the charge on the electron. The puppeteers improved on it by designing a second model that negated the charge on the proton. Remember, care had to be used if both were used close together, as there could be current flow.... And don't forget the Wunderland Peacemaker. It was a giant disintegrator pretending to be a ship. It was used only once, it destroyed the Kzinti outpost on Canyon (well, not really. The Kzinti are still there, trapped in the stasis field that protectd them originally from the Peacemaker, and then from the magma that washed over their bubble. >I do know, however, that a variable sword is a device which reels >out a wire to any length (hence 'variable') between 0 and about 10 >feet, encasing said wire in a stasis field to make it rigid and >unbreakable (or is it non-stasised Sinclair Molecular Chain wire? >I really have forgotten unforgivably much). There is a small red >ball on the end of the wire to let the wielder -- and, inevitably, >his/her opponent(s) -- know where the 'blade' is. You don't want >to cut something important like your own limbs, now do you? Correct, though the variable sword mode of the weapon in "The Soft Weapon" had a much greater range than 10 feet. It was said that variable swords used Sinclair monofilament enclosed in a stasis field to give it rigidity. Doubtless non-human made models used whatever the thinest, strongest conductive material the culture had. Does anybody know what would happen if you fired a slaver disin- tegrator at a General Products hull? I may get to see Larry at Chattacon next month, I think I'll ask him. UUCP:cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend CSNET:vnend@engr.uky.csnet BITNET:cn0001dj@ukcc.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 86 20:11:08 GMT From: vnend@ukecc.uky.csnet (D. W. James) Subject: Re: Ringworld implausibilities madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) writes: >allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >>BTW -- as far as the protectors go, I lump them in with the "down >>in flames" outline posted a few months ago; protectors, being in >>the center of the galaxy, might well be a danger to the tnuctip >>plan to take over the galaxy. (They would know the truth about >>the Core explosion.) > >Aside from the obvious (the protectors fled the core explosion), >they would not be a threat to either Slaver or tnuctip expansion. Especially since they didn't exist yet. The Slaver Era was approx. 1 BILLION years ago. Even the puppeteer civilization is only a little more than a million years old. The only sentient race surviving the slavers (outside of being in a stasis field) is the Frumious Bandersnatch. Remember, at the time of the Slaver Era, Earth was a food planet, with oceans covered with food algea. Most of the life on Earth EVOLVED from that algea. >The tnuctip, on the other hand, would not be expansionist. We have >nothing to indicate expansionist tendencies in the tnuctip. >Rather, we see attempt by the tnuctip to free themselves from >Slaver domination. Besides this, the tnuctip were master >biologists. But we don't have any data to indicate that the tnuctip weren't expansionist either. They could have been expanding when they found the slavers or vive versa (It could be argued that SOMEBODY must have found the slavers rather than the Slavers finding them. The one example of the Slaver race that we met was none too bright. But if they captured the secret of interstellar travel from some visitor then it makes more sense.). All we know is that the Tnuctip were FAR cleverer than the Thrint. >Most certainly not, aside from their handiwork. They were supposed >to have been destroyed at the same time as the Slavers, by whatever >tool they used to extinguish the Slaver threat. The Tnuctip did NOT extinguish the Slaver threat. They WERE winning the war. The Slavers dispaired and built a Galaxy blanketing amplifier and destroyed all life in the galaxy that had a mind they could control (it seems as though Bandersnatchi and plants were immune). Either the weapon overpowered the other Slavers shields and killed them too or the Slavers died out without their slave races (I favor the second, else how did we get the Grogs?) And there COULD be Tnuctip still out there. If they knew that the slavers were planning something they could have squirreled away a couple of cities worth of people in stasis fields. And so far known space actually accounts for a very small volume in the galaxy... UUCP:cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend CSNET:vnend@engr.uky.csnet BITNET:cn0001dj@ukcc.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 86 19:46:36 GMT From: unisoft!jef@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jef Poskanzer) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? vnend@ukecc.UUCP (D. W. James) writes: >Does anybody know what would happen if you fired a slaver >disintegrator at a General Products hull? I may get to see Larry at >Chattacon next month, I think I'll ask him. General Products hulls are held together by the strong nuclear force, not by electrostatic forces. The strong nuclear force from a single proton is much stronger than the electrostatic force from that same proton. Therefore, even if you cancelled all the electrons in the entire hull, it would hold together. If you used the Puppeteers' modified disintegrator to cancel the charges on the protons instead, the usual fireworks would appear as the electrons flew away and ionized the surroundings. But the hull would still hold. And things inside the hull would, of course, not be affected. Jef Poskanzer UniSoft Systems, Berkeley unisoft!jef@ucbvax.Berkeley.Edu ...ucbvax!unisoft!jef (415)644-1230 ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 86 04:02:13 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jim "Jack" Frost) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? vnend@ukecc.UUCP (D. W. James) writes: >Does anybody know what would happen if you fired a slaver >disintegrator at a General Products hull? I may get to see Larry at >Chattacon next month, I think I'll ask him. I am pretty sure they offhandedly tell you that nothing will happen if you use a slaver-type disintegrator somewhere in _Ringworld_. Could be wrong -- I've read so many of his stories that they blur. Anyway, it would be pretty dumb of the Puppeteers to guarantee that their hull can't be pierced by _anything_ if you could do it with just a disintegrator. Granted, antimatter can do it (but this fact is "not widely publicized," you may recall). It seems to me that the things that surprised them so much about _scrith_ were its malleability (it could bend, while the General Products hulls cannot) and its semipermeability to neutrons. Aside from that, I got the impression the behaved identically (exception: passing of light). Jim Frost UUCP: ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs BITNET: cscc71c@bostonu ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 86 19:31:42 GMT From: watnot!ccplumb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Colin Plumb) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? (Stasis Hulls) vnend@ukecc.UUCP (D. W. James) writes: > One of the bugs I have with Ringworld is how did they get the > field around Liar OFF? Their sensors (and everything else outside > the GP hull) were vaporized. How did the ship know it was safe to > turn off the field? And again when it crashed into Ringworld. But > hey, it was fun and I don't really care. The canonical way to do that is to use an atomic (or other very fast) clock to turn on the field for an adequate time interval. The timer probably ran out a couple of times from when the UV laser hit the Needle to the collision with the ring, but was reactivated within microseconds, due to continued irradiation. Colin Plumb ccplumb@watnot.UUCP ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Dec 86 0834-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #415 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 16 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 415 Today's Topics: Books - Allen & Key & Pohl (3 msgs) & Pournelle & Rice & Sagan & Spinrad & A Story Request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Dec 86 23:33:55 GMT From: unisoft!jef@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jef Poskanzer) Subject: The Torch of Honor The Torch of Honor by Roger MacBride Allen Baen Books, 1985, 339 pages I knew I wasn't going to like this book when, on the very first page, I saw the phrase "light-speed-squared". Apparently the author thinks it's reasonable to have his faster-than-light ships travel at a "speed" of c^2. Apparently the author never took high-school physics, since that's about as reasonable as saying the ship masses three and a half hours. George O. Smith made the exact same mistake in the Venus Equilateral series, and later repented. Could Roger MacBride Allen be making a subtle reference to Smith? Nope. The book is riddled with *stupid* *needless* technical errors. Allen likes to go into detail on the technology his characters use, but he doesn't have anywhere near the knowledge to pull it off. After the first few errors, I got out my red pen and started annotating: Page 15: Allen seems to think that the human race was created at the time of Christ's birth. I kid you not, it's there in black and white. Page 29: A detailed explanation of the light-speed-squared drive. "Faster-than-light drive moves a ship at the square of the speed of light. It's usually referred to as C^2, pronounced "cee-squared." C^2 gets you from the solar system to Proxima Centuri in about 105 seconds." Page 30: Allen devotes an entire page to explaining why it's easier to chart a system's planets from far outside the plane of the ecliptic. But in fact it is much easier to chart them from within the plane - you can do a linear search of a ring around the sky, instead of a much more complicated search of a far vaster hemisphere. Page 41: Allen introduces an anti-ship missile system which is used to blockade an entire star system. He explicitly states that the missiles use normal speed-of-light photons to detect the ships by the special "burst of ultraviolet and X-rays" made when exiting C^2 space. Supposedly the missiles can destroy any ship "within seconds" of it entering the system. Most of the rest of the plot is determined by the need to disarm this missile system. And yet I can think of two *obvious* ways of defeating the missiles: (1) Get them all to destroy themselves by flooding the system with C^2-equipped decoys (quick calculation estimates the number of missiles at around 10,000 - logistics gives about the same number). (2) Have your ships enter the system a few light-days from the center, and proceed inward on fusion power. Page 62: Allen has one of his characters do a little rock climbing, and goes into needless and grossly incorrect detail. It is obvious that Allen either has never done any rock climbing or is extremely lucky to have survived. Page 63: Allen gets a detail of the Coriolis effect wrong. He also mis-spells Coriolis. Page 80: He literally confuses the map with the territory. The character, attempting to liberate the blockaded solar system, has to make a rendezvous at a certain set of map coordinates. He finds that the locals have changed their reference meridian, and on the new maps his coordinates are over ocean, therefore he can't make the rendezvous. Say what?!? Use the old maps, dummy! Page 102: A reference to a gigawatt as a unit of energy, instead of power. Page 195: Allen starts to give performance details on his fusion powered spacecraft. Unfortunately, those details are ridiculous. Allen's ships can barely make it into orbit before running out of fuel. He has no grasp of the six orders of magnitude difference between chemical reactions and nuclear reactions. You get the idea. Total technical lossage. So why am I flaming him? After all, 90% of science fiction is shit. Isn't this just one more book for the shit-pile? Well, for one thing, the back cover quotes some pretty positive reviews from Locus, Fantasy Review, and Publisher's Weekly. Locus even compares Allen to Robert Heinlein. For another thing - it's really not that bad a book. The prose is skillful, sometimes poetic, never boring. The action is exciting and well-depicted. The characters, well, some of them are cut-outs, but many are well drawn. How much better would this book have been if the grating technical inaccuracies had been filtered out? And the real question: where is Baen Books getting their editors from?? Jef Poskanzer UniSoft Systems, Berkeley unisoft!jef@ucbvax.Berkeley.Edu ...ucbvax!unisoft!jef (415)644-1230 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 86 22:28:25 -0500 From: Alexander J. Grossman <qu9j@vax2.ccs.cornell.edu> Subject: Re: "The Summer Tree" by Guy Gavriel Kay I just finished reading "The Summer Tree" recently and I enjoyed it. I was just wondering if anybody knew when the next book in the series was coming out. The first book was published in 1984 but only recently came out in paperback. Alexander J. Grossman 305 Thurston Avenue Ithaca, NY 14850 (607)-257-5653 BITNET:qu9j@crnlvax2.bitnet UUCP: {rochester|cmcl2|uw-beaver|decvax}!cornell!vax2!qu9j EDUNET:qu9j@vax2.ccs.cornell.edu ARPA:qu9j@vax2.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 86 02:01:39 GMT From: watnot!javoskamp@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jeff Voskamp) Subject: Re: What Frederik Pohl doesn't know about mathematics The actual number is 4986 digits long (big, but not that big, check it out using logarithms). It is interesting to know that the first 50 characters of the decoded string are ' a a ', not terribly interesting. (I would have gone further, but what's the next prime after 233?) There is no problem with the fact that x^0 = 1. To decode the number you have to factor it. Since the characters are position dependant ( the fifth character is based on the exponent of 11, for example), then if the n'th prime doesn't divide into the number, that location is a space. If it divides into the number once, it gets an 'a', etc. Checking what the n'th character will be is relatively easy, at least it's easier than decoding the entire string. :-) You are right however in that the number is much to small for any reasonable amount of information (especially after we see the first bit of it). It's been a learning experience. (Aren't infinite precision math routines fun!) Jeff Voskamp UUCP : {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,utzoo,clyde}!watmath!watnot!javoskamp CSNET : javoskamp%watnot@waterloo.CSNET BITNET: javoskam@watcsg.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 86 18:07:10 GMT From: rwt@ukc.ac.uk (R.W.Thearle) Subject: Re: What Frederik Pohl doesn't know about mathematics jao@valid.UUCP (John Oswalt) writes: >This is another situation where a basic feel for numbers (or just >common sense) will immediately spot the flaw: how can you represent >several million characters of information with about 50? (Using a >more limited character set, yet.) By taking advantage of the >redundancy in dictionaries, you could probably reduce the number of >characters by a factor of 100, maybe even 1000, but a million? >Gimme a break. In the example above the number expressed as a sum >is clearly nowhere near big enough to express the product of >several million different primes. > >Besides this, which requires some understanding (though not much), >Pohl doesn't even seem to know that anything to the 0th power is 1, >so his spaces go away. No. Absense of any powers of (say) 11 can be detected, therefore the position of the spaces can be deduced. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 86 19:52:20 GMT From: valid!jao@rutgers.rutgers.edu (John Oswalt) Subject: Re: What Frederik Pohl doesn't know about mathematics > Pohl doesn't even seem to know that anything to the 0th power is > 1, so his spaces go away. Ok, everybody, don't flame me for this. I realize that this is not a flaw in the scheme. Exponents of 0 are as significant as anything else. There is another flaw though: > As can be seen, the Godelized form for even a short message > involves a very large number, although such numbers may be > transmitted quite compactly in the form of a sum of bases and > exponents. The example transmitted by the Constitution is > estimated to equal the contents of a standard unabridged > dictionary." Let's estimate just how big this number would be. Say there are One billion characters in such a dictionary. I'll guess that the 1 billionth prime is on the order of 1e11, and that the average exponent is 10. I'll use 1e10 as the geometric average of the primes, since most of them are smaller than 1e11. (As will be seen, I can be many orders of magnitude off in each of these assumptions and still have a valid point.) The Godelized number encoding the billion characters will then be about 1e11 to the power 1e9, or number about 1e10 digits long. The original message was only 1e9 characters long. So the raw godelized number is about 10 times longer than the original message. This seems reasonable: you're using a character set poorer by a facter of 2.6, and can lose the additional factor of 4 by the inefficiencies of the primes. (I've been generous in my estimates; it's probably really worse than this.) Pohl seems to think that this number can be drastically reduced in length by expressing it in another form. Well, in rare instances, it can. After all, I can write a number 1e10 digits long as 1e(1e10), using only 8 characters. The key word is rare. Pohl uses the scheme of expressing numbers as a sum of primes to some power. We can do this with 13 characters: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, p, +, and -. Pohl's "Godelized dictionary" number can then be written as. 1973p354+331p852+17p2008+5p47+3p9606+2p88-78. That's 44 characters. In fact, this number is not nearly big enough. Nevertheless, it is possibe to express numbers which are big enough using this scheme. What Pohl seems to think is that a sequence of about 50 such characters is sufficient to represent all numbers of 1e10 digits. In fact, 50 characters (from a 13 character set) can represent at most 50 13 , or about 5e55, different numbers (using his scheme, actually fewer, since some sequences encode the same number). Thus the chance of some random number in the range 0 - 1e(1e10) being able to be encoded as a 50 character sequence is 5e55/1e(1e10), which is so close to 0 that it may as well be 0. In other words, the chance of encoding an unabridged dictionary as a 50 character sequence is just about nil. You disagree with some of my estimates? I made a few mathematical errors, a facter of a few billion here, a few trillion there? It doesn't matter. There's enough leeway to hide behind. A side note: these postings about Niven and Pohl have shown me that you have to be very careful about posting to this group. Make the slightest error, and people are all over you. Doesn't matter if your main point is valid. Just toss off an ill-considered side remark, and flame, flame, flame! John Oswalt amdcad!amd!pesnta!valid!jao ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 86 22:17:41 -0500 From: Alexander J. Grossman <qu9j@vax2.ccs.cornell.edu> Subject: Jerry Pournelle Does anybody know when ( and if ) there are going to be more books in the "Janissaries" series? I really enjoyed the first two but have always wondered if there were more coming. Alexander J. Grossman 305 Thurston Avenue Ithaca, NY 14850 (607)-257-5653 BITNET:qu9j@crnlvax2.bitnet UUCP: {rochester|cmcl2|uw-beaver|decvax}!cornell!vax2!qu9j EDUNET:qu9j@vax2.ccs.cornell.edu ARPA:qu9j@vax2.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 86 22:51:19 -0500 From: Alexander J. Grossman <qu9j@vax2.ccs.cornell.edu> Subject: Anne Rice and The Chronicles of the Vampires I would just like to recommend two books in a series by Anne Rice. They are "Interview with the Vampire" and "The Vampire Lestat". They were both very enjoyable and quite creative with regard to vampires as a species. They're both basically narratives of the past by two vampires in the present day. There should be another book in the series coming out soon. If anyone wants to discuss these books, please write. Alexander J. Grossman 305 Thurston Avenue Ithaca, NY 14850 (607)-257-5653 BITNET:qu9j@crnlvax2.bitnet UUCP: {rochester|cmcl2|uw-beaver|decvax}!cornell!vax2!qu9j EDUNET:qu9j@vax2.ccs.cornell.edu ARPA:qu9j@vax2.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 86 12:49:42 GMT From: omen!caf@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX) Subject: Re: CONTACT by Carl Sagan kastin@husc4.UUCP (jonathan kastin) writes: >Just one comment to add about Sagan's _Contact_: it's cluttered >with reams of excess verbiage. I got the distinct impression that >Sagan was trying to impress his readers with his vocabulary. It got >a bit annoying at times. Can you say "Th-ousands and Th-ousands of words" ? I found Sagan's political views and stereotype science-nerds that permeate the book somewhat tiresome. The bit about the value of PI at the end of the book was a real groaner; perhaps the answer should have been 42. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 86 20:55:28 GMT From: hoptoad!laura@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton) Subject: Re: Card - Spinrad's Comments cje@elbereth.RUTGERS.EDU (Ernst ) writes: >This argument is bogus. > >Plato? The closest thing to fiction he ever wrote was his >description of Atlantis, and even that's stretching it. The man >was a philosopher; he wrote philosophical dialogues, not fiction. Well, we can see who has only heard about Plato and Artistotle and who has not read it. One of the things that these two philosophers did was literary criticism. What makes good fiction? The ancients knew and wrote about it. Now you can disagree with Spinrad, who apparantly half-agrees and half-disagrees with Aristotle, but Aristotle is a rather great place to start when figuring out whether *Ender's Game* is literature or not. If you have a better definition than Aristotle's, then you had better be able to counter his ancient objections to other definitions. Laura Creighton ihnp4!hoptoad!laura utzoo!hoptoad!laura sun!hoptoad!laura toad@lll-crg.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 86 14:16:24 GMT From: alice!td@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Traffic Light story/author query I have a vague memory of a short story published in one of the SF digests sometime in the last 10 years. The story concerns a guy who has acquired the knack of driving anywhere he wants in New York City, never hitting a red light -- he has a perfect mental model of the city's traffic light timing and always hits the greens. I cannot recall the title, author or time and place of publication of this story. Can anybody help me? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Dec 86 0828-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #416 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 17 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 416 Today's Topics: Films - Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (17 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Dec 86 17:28:25 GMT From: minnie!ihm@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ian Merritt) Subject: Re: STIV & transporting all the time (small-spoilers) I'm kind of curious how it happened that in a public park, nobody just happened to wonder why the trashcan got smashed or what those depressions in the ground were. It seems somebody (probably a child) would likely have bumped into the ship. Also, during the initial landing, the grass itself didn't compress, but in subsequent scenes, it was squashed. Cheers uucp: ihnp4!nrcvax!ihm ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 86 20:38:15 GMT From: gp@lll-lcc.aRpA (George Pavel) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV -- mini-spoilers mirth@reed.UUCP (The Hero Discovered) writes: > My major quibble with Gillian's character was that here we have a > cetacean biologist with a photographic memory, enough scientific > ability to be the Cetacean Institute's assistant director, and > enough mental stability to handle being unexpectedly transported > into an alien vessel, flown to Alaska in 12 minutes, and > slingshotted around the sun into the 23rd century, where she gains > a berth on a science ship despite her 'primitive' education. Yet > she is a ditzy airhead with no scientific curiosity (if *I* saw a > mysterious glow in my rear view mirror, and turned around to see > that the guy I'd just dropped off -- who claimed to come from the > future -- had vanished, NO WAY would I just drive off! I'd go > back and investigate)... There didn't seem to be a rear view mirror in Gillian's truck. madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) writes: > When they found the truck (a week later?) it probably would be > stripped (at least in part, if it wasn't towed away beforehand)... Perhaps Frost is right. The truck may have been stripped once already which would explain the lack of a rear-view mirror. Lindsay Pavel entered by: George Pavel Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory P.O. Box 808 L-68 Livermore, CA 9455 (415)422-4262 ARPANET/MILNET: gp@lll-lcc.arpa UUCP: ihnp4!lll-lcc!gp ------------------------------ Date: Thu 11 Dec 86 15:31:17-PST From: Lynn Gold <Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU> Subject: STIV and the dent made by the Klingon ship Did anyone else notice that when Gillian went to bang on the ship, her foot went into the hole where the ship was supposed to be? Lynn ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 86 05:16:40 GMT From: prairie!dan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Daniel M. Frank) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes: >IF you assume that there are some aliens out there that have >technology beyond our wildest dreams, AND that they're on speaking >terms with our fish for whatever their reasons, THEN, in the words >of Joe Jackson, "What makes you think they give a sh*t about you? >Who are you, anyway?" Why would they even bother noticing us, much >less explaining themselves? The Book of Job has some interesting things to say about this (no, I'm not a regular poster to mod.religion.rabid or anything, but it is cogent, and makes for good reading). When Job's friends all try to tell him why God would want him to suffer so much, the Big Guy appears in a whirlwind and asks them where they were when He created the world, and why they think they know so much about His motivations. Enormous power has a way of being incomprehensible to us. If we landed on some planet and were looking for hominids, we might not explain our presence or actions to tiny creatures resembling literate cockroaches, because we might not think they were intelligent, or might not have noticed them. >The second is that a movie, in the interest of the gibbering >hordes,..ahem, the average man, tends to focus on a single, small >group of people. That's why Brunner's "The Sheep Look Up" and >Niven/Pournelle's "Lucifer's Hammer" will never be made into films. Not unless Dino DiLaurentiis buys the rights to them, sets his wife up as producer, and spends millions of dollars to produce hours of film, which he then cuts beyond recognition, resulting in such characters as the amazing disappearing Duncan Idaho, or the inexplicable Archduke Sergei. It would really be truth in advertising if he called his movies by such names as "Du", "Tai", or the coming attractions "The Shee", and "Lucif Ha". Dan Frank uucp: ... uwvax!prairie!dan arpa: dan%caseus@spool.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat 13 Dec 86 11:59:02-EST From: Rob Freundlich Subject: STIV time paradox >yield of a few perfume bottles would not have changed the future >significantly Are you sure? Read "The Sound of Thunder," by (I think) Ray Bradbury. The main character steps on a butterfly in prehistoric times (did they exist way back then? :-) ), and changes the history of his world so that a different, cruel government is in control when he returns to the present. Granted, there's much more time for the butterfly's death to reverberate through the ages, but I can see a perfume bottle having a large effect. Follow: It is the late 20th century. Jane Smith is going on her first date with Tiberius Kirk, the boy-next-door (and James T. Kirk's great-to-the-nth grandfather). She wants to buy a bottle of perfume to impress him, but the store is all out. It seems a whaling ship "lost" two whales and couldn't make perfume out of them. Tiberius decides he doesn't like the way Jane smells, and they never see each other again. Goodbye, James Tiberius Kirk. Rob Freundlich Wesleyan University s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 86 05:10:29 GMT From: uokmax!rmtodd@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Richard Michael Todd) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV & Time Travel sgreen@hera.cs.ucla.edu (Shoshanna Green) writes: >dts@gitpyr.UUCP (Danny Sharpe) writes: >>her meeting with the president. These were from the two >>alternative histories, one with and one without McCoy's >>intervention. How did it happen that the playback included both? > Well, if this happened on the Guardian's planet, as I believe it > did, the playback could include both for the same reason that the > characters remained there when their civilization, the ship that > had gotten them there, and quite possibly their parents had just > winked out of existence or changed beyond recognition (the > difference is moot); namely, the Guardian's planet is somewhat > immune to the effects of the Guardian on history. But not > completely, which is why the new record is there too. As I recall it, Spock started the recording of the historical views from the Guardian *before* McCoy went through and continued after McCoy had gone through. Thus his recording would contain data from both the "before" and "after" time-lines. As the poster above said, in the region around the Guardian the influence of time-line changes does not exist, thus the crew still retain their memories of "before", as do the tricorder's electronic memories. Evidently this zone of influence doesn't extend very far above the surface, or the Enterprise would have remained, too. This sort of assumption (some people or places are protected from the change) is common in time-travel stories; otherwise the would-be history changer gets instant non-existence as soon as he does something. Would *you* change history under those conditions? Richard Todd USSnail:820 Annie Court,Norman OK 73069 UUCP: {allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!okstate!uokmax!rmtodd ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 86 11:50:38 est From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Star Trek IV and Superman I was always impressed by the fact that Superman would fly around the earth faster than light *clockwise* to go into the future and *counterclockwise* to go into the past. (God was obviously born in the northern hemisphere.) Now we learn that slingshotting 'round the sun follows the same rules. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 86 18:03:24 GMT From: kstevens@vino.dec.com (Sometime's I'm even too weird for me!) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV & Time Travel >One thing I noticed recently after seeing Star Trek IV was that for >the first time in many time travel movies, Kirk actually took >someone into the future with him. This would leave a major question >mark in the classic paradox of time travel, concerning the >non-existence "Gillian" (the whale expert) which Kirk took to the >23rd century. Her family would not exist. And what about the Phaser >and communicator that Chekov left on the USS Enterprise (The >aircraft carrier, not the spaceship)...Surely since he left those >gadgets behind, our society would have gained a technology leap. Well, Gillian's disappearance could have been explained away in a very simple fashion. She could have been so distraught over "losing" her whales that she attempted to follow them and was "lost" at sea.... ergo ending up in the 23rd. century. Also, it never really indicated that Gillian had a family.... In fact it was stated by Gillian to Admiral Kirk that she had no one there. re: Gadgets.... I'm not so sure that leaving those items behind would necessarily give us a technological leap. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 86 00:00:00 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Checking the dents in the park [spoilers] ihm@minnie.UUCP (Ian Merritt)... >I'm kind of curious how it happened that in a public park, nobody >just happened to wonder why the trashcan got smashed or what those >depressions in the ground were. It seems somebody (probably a >child) would likely have bumped into the ship. Little boy: "I was running in the park and saw some dents in the ground; I went over to look at them and ran into something that wasn't there." His mother: "Quit telling stories. Now REALLY, why didn't you come when I called you?" Brandon S. Allbery 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 974 9210 before 10:15am or after 8:00 pm ..cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ------------------------------ Date: 16 Dec 1986 12:25 EST (Tue) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> Subject: ST - 4/ City on the Edge of Forever As I recall, Spock had two recordings, one made before McCoy jumped, and one made while they were waiting for the Guardian to reach the point where he and Kirk could jump. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 16 Dec 86 11:15:47-PST From: SUZY@USC-ECLC.ARPA Subject: ST IV To: bhs@MITRE-BEDFORD.ARPA In response to the question of where was that tank with George & Gracie, It's the new (well, maybe 2 years old now) Monterey Bay Aquarium, at the end of Cannery Row. A place well worth the wait in line to visit. suzy@usc-eclc.arpa Ellay, CA ------------------------------ Date: 15 December 1986, 11:30:50 EST From: "Richard P. King" <RPK@ibm.com> Subject: Star Trek IV I saw STIV Saturday night and found it reasonably entertaining. Having had a look at what purported to be the screenplay, I had expected it to be a drag. It wasn't. And having read all of the notes about it, I had expected to see some minor motivational problems, one or two peculiarities of a technical nature, & a major, and unanswerable, question about the probe. They were all there, but they didn't interfere with my enjoyment of the film. ****** SPOILER WARNING ****** There were 2 things that bothered me which I haven't seen mention of. The first was Scotty's claim that there was nothing he could do about the de-crystalization of the dilithium, even if he had been back in the 23rd century. After leaving him, Spock tells Kirk that there IS something that can be done, namely to capture some photons emitted by a fission reactor. Spock would have included Scotty in that discussion, to get his view on the engineering feasibility of implementing that proposal, and Scotty should have thought of this anyway. The dialogue could have been something like Scotty: The dilithium is de-crystalizing, and there's certainly none to be found around here that we could use to replace it. Kirk: Agreed, but isn't there some way to re-crystalize the dilithium we have here? Spock: I believe, Admiral, that application of high-energy photons would be sufficient. Scotty: Oh, aye, but we don't have the plutonium we'd need for a reactor, assumin', of course, that I could tinker one up. Spock: I don't believe that will be necessary, Mr. Scott. ... And so on. Or something along those lines which made it clear that Scotty isn't an ignorant dolt, simply less well versed in the history of techonology. The other matter is Gillian's failure to say something rational along the lines of "He's not human, is he?" when she first sees Spock without the headband. This would give Kirk the opportunity to say something cute like "Not really, no." I would have preferred this to her just giving him a couple funny looks. Richard. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 16 Dec 86 17:04:07-CST From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: Cetacean Institute The scenes were filmed at the Monterey Bay Aquarium at Monterey, CA, which was just built recently. My wife noticed a kelp forest in one scene and this new facility is the only one in the world with a "captive" kelp exhibit. (Also she noticed the movie credited the Monterey Bay Aquarium!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 86 19:06:01 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Dr. Chapel You have to be watching _VERY_ closely to see her and Rand. If you listen to the dialogue while the probe is attacking Earth during the first part of the movie, you see and hear her saying that they need power for medical facilities. (I suspect that she is high up in Starfleet Medical by now.) Later, during the "court-martial", you see her and Rand sitting next to each other on the right side of the council chamber (facing the President). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 86 19:10:02 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Whale song Remember, Gillian said that this was the wrong time of the year for the whales to be singing, and that they were playing a tape of a pre-recorded song. I still can't see how she managed it, but at least electrical impulses are more reasonable than sound waves. st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 86 19:19:14 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: STAR TREK IV spoiler I may have posted this before, but I think that the Enterprise was scrapped because NCC-1701-A was being built. And as for the Big E being twenty years old, one of the BEST OF TREK articles pointed out that this was wrong. Spock served under Pike (presumably aboard the Enterprise) for about 13 years. Captain April (animated) had the Enterprise for some time, possibly a five- year mission. Then there were 15 years between "Space Seed" and TWOK. This makes 33 years, not counting any other time not chronicled. st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 86 19:25:06 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Re: Does George Takei age? No. I saw him at a convention in Boston in November. st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Dec 86 0826-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #417 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 22 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 417 Today's Topics: Books - Adams (3 msgs) & Blish (5 msgs) & Milan & Niven & The Hercules Text & Blood of Ten Chiefs & Story Requests (2 msgs) & An Answer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Dec 86 09:27 EST From: Gubbins@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide Returns to NPR According to the current copy of The Status Line (formerly The New Zork Times) from Infocom, they are making the BBC 12 part THGTTG series available to National Public Radio (again) in JAN 87. This is to help promote Infocom's game and generally to be all around nice guys. It says check your local listings for times and/or call your local NPR station and remind them it is available. It says more info will follow in the next issue. Now if I only knew where my local NPR station is... Cheers, Gern ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 86 21:02:31 GMT From: ma6rcm@bath63.bath.ac.uk (Richard Moss) Subject: Hitch Hikers Trivia For those of us bored by the usual run-of-the-mill trivia questions that fellow readers come up with, I have a more challenging question. In the first book, The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy, there is, in the vogon spaceship, an example of vogon poetry. As red tape specialists, they wil never use a few simple words, but instead one very long one. However the message is perfectly obvious to anybody with a good dictionary. Thus the poetry has a true, simple meaning and this, users, is the task, translate the vogon poetry into simplified language. Richard C. Moss Bath University Claverton Down Bath BA2 7AY JANET: ma6rcm@UK.AC.BATH.UX63 UUCP: seismo!mcvax!ukc!bath63!ma6rcm ARPA: ma6rcm%ux63.bath.ac.uk@ucl-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 86 18:53:18 GMT (Sorted by Postman Pat) From: Derrick <ENU1475%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk> Subject: Hitch Hiker, and God's final message. nutto%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Andy Steinberg) writes: >over five millions years long? A last note, at the end of the >third book the prisoner (I can't remember his name) told Arthur >where to find the Ultimate Question. But in the fourth book they >suddenly started calling it God's final message to his creation. >Any ideas why the sudden switch? Wrong! They were all looking for the Ultimate Question, but Prak (I think his name was) either didn't know it or couldn't remember it. However, as an alternative, he told Arthur (just before he died) where to find God's final message to his creation. If he *had* given the location of the Ultimate Question don't you think they'd have gone straight there to find it? As it was, God's final message etc. was not important enough to go to Sevorbeupstry for it. Putting that aside, for a moment, let me answer the criticisms aimed at HHGTG in other messages in the same digest. I just want to say that HHGTG did not start off as a book, but as a radio series. The cult that started here in Britain was based on this radio series, and with good reason. The radio series created an amazing atmosphere of weirdness by the use of script, acting performances (especially Peter Jones' marvellous rendition of the Book) and music. The TV series didn't even come close to recreating the sort of feeling the radio series did, since it was dependant on visuals, in turn dependant on the BBC's low budget special effects (q.v. Blakes Seven.) Finally, dates: The radio series was produced and broadcast on BBC Radio 4 in early 1978. (The original airdates are printed in all British paperback editions of the first book.) The record (get it if you can) was released in about 1980, as was the second radio series. The TV series was produced for BBCtv in 1980, and shown in early 1981. Derrick <ENU1475>%UK.AC.Bradford.Central.Cyber1@ucl-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 86 12:31:37 est From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers) Subject: selahny/black easter Presumably, selahny is delany. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 86 21:12:34 EST From: "Morris M. Keesan" <keesan@cci.bbn.com> Subject: Black Easter In-Jokes Cc: DSCargo@hi-multics.arpa Selahny looks like it might be an oblique reference to Zelazny. Atheling is clearly "William Atheling", an SF critic, who was a pen-name. I'm not positive, but I think Atheling was Blish himself. I'm sure Jerry Boyajian will enlighten us if I'm wrong. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 86 10:23:13 EST From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) To: dscargo@hi-multics.arpa Subject: BLACK EASTER in-joke "Atheling" is the pseudonym Blish used for his criticisms of SF---he was sideswiping himself, perhaps so nobody else could object to his milder digs at them. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 86 11:36:35 EST From: Ron Singleton <rsingle@bbncc-washington.ARPA> Subject: Re: In Joke Question A couple of guesses: SELAHNY = ZELAZNY(?) ROSENBLUM = SPIDER ROBINSON (?) Looking forward to the "definitive" word someone more familiar with the circumstances is sure to post. Ron S (rsingle@cct.bbn.com) ------------------------------ Date: 17 Dec 1986 10:06:22 PST Subject: BLACK EASTER From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@ADA20.ISI.EDU> Cc: dscargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA >From: "David S. Cargo" <DSCargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA> >> Father Selahny, a terrifying kabalist who spoke in parables and >> of whom it was said that no one since Leviathan had understood >> his counsel; > > Are there any other writers buried in there? Father Selahny just about has to be Roger Zelazny; though I don't know the publication dates for "Creatures of Light and Darkness" or "Lord of Light", 1969 is certainly late enough (that's when you said BLACK EASTER was published) to account for the reference to incomprehensible parables. Nice question; I have no clue to "Uccello", "Rosenblum" or "Atheling". But let's go find and read the book, already! Doug dolson @ Ada20.isi.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue 16 Dec 86 11:27:24-PST From: SUZY@USC-ECLC.ARPA Subject: Intelligent(?) Computers >"Cybernetic Samuri" by ?? : I saw this in the book store the other >day. It's a story about a super-intelligent super-computer that >could take over the world if not restrained by the Samuri ethics >instilled into it by its creator. Or something along those lines. ...or something along those lines... "Cybernetic Samurai" by Victor Milan. It's a pretty good read, so far. I'm about halfway through, and the Silicon Brat is still interesting. suzy@usc-eclc.arpa University of Spoiled Children Downtown Ellay, CA ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 86 05:31:17 GMT From: lrj@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Lewis R. Jansen) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? jef@unisoft.UUCP (Jef Poskanzer) writes: >> Does anybody know what would happen if you fired a slaver >>disintegrator at a General Products hull? I may get to see Larry >>at Chattacon next month, I think I'll ask him. > >General Products hulls are held together by the strong nuclear force, >not by electrostatic forces. The strong nuclear force from a single Hmm... I seem to recall that the General Products hulls gained their strength from the fact that the entire hull was a single molecule... I thought molecules were held together by the electrostatics of the protons & electrons... Ionic bonds? Valence bonds? Covalence bonds? Seem that both the strong an weak nuclear forces are both far too short range to hold the atoms in a molecule together... I may be mistaken, but this seems to be what i was taught years ago in chemistry class... Given that it IS electrostatics holding the monomolecular General Products hull together, i would think there'd be quite a big POOF! as the vastly positive (or negative?) hull suddenly explodes due to the electrostatic repulsion between its component atoms... Only question is what is the source of the energy? You'd have to have a pretty big source... Also: what if you turn it on for just a couple microseconds? The hull starts to POOF! and you turn off the disintegrator. Suddenly the electrostatics come back and pull it all back together. Wonder how long an interval you can have the disintegrator on yet still have the hull remain intact? yes, i'm getting fanciful here, but there's so much you could DO with this concept! :^) Lewis R. Jansen lrj@lasspvax.tn.cornell.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 86 13:50:41 est From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #412 Unfortunately, THE HERCULES TEXT relied on some astonishingly bad science, especially computer science. Tell me again how an optical "laserdisc" will be erased by an electromagnet... Tell me again how only two copies of this awesome text will be made, neither of which is guarded by anything like serious security, both of which are accessible to scientists who don't have security clearance.... And it is certainly IMPOSSIBLE (I mean it now, boys) for code to be broadcast that will run in any computer *****!!!!! IF IT IS SIMPLE ENOUGH !!!!!***** I mean it's impossible without that proviso, but really, now. Also there is no particular reason alien computers should have a Von Neumann architecture -- that is just how ours worked out. And that sequence whereby an alien program takes over a startrek game in someone's pc is just too much..... And you might have noticed the author specified this pc had 256K of memory -- this is the future we're talking about! I'm not sure you can even now purchase a new computer with less than 512k.... Also, modulating a pulsar is just a little gauche, shall we say? Anyone who could do that could also transmit radio waves without all the special effects, don't you think? THE HERCULES TEXT was obviously written after a brief reading of one of the "cosmology for the working man" books, and the extent of the author's computer knowledge is probably that he wrote the book using a word-processor... At least the author gave Hawking some press, implying that he has survived to the date of the novel.... It is a real shame that literary and scientific competence don't occur together more often..... Laurence R. Brothers brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu {harvard,seismo,ut-sally,sri-iu,ihnp4!packard}!topaz!brothers ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 86 19:33 EDT From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire Subject: Blood of 10 Chiefs I am astonished by what I have read so far of it, by its utter dullness. It is yet another example of the fannish mentality that has become such a part of comics/fantasy/sf. That is to say, the worshipping at the holy shrine of 'continuity', writing long involved stories about minor characters, etc. Dan Parmenter Hampshire College ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 86 04:31:57 GMT From: jhunix!ins_adjb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Daniel Jay Barrett) Subject: Story request -- immortality I have been reminded of a short story I read many years ago. The narrator meets someone (I'll call him Jack) who claims that he is immortal. In fact, Jack even cuts himself with a knife, and the wound heals in an incredibly short time. Jack got his immortality from eating a special concoction he invented (discovered elsewhere?); some of its ingredients were honey and (I think) clover. The narrator is amazed that Jack will reveal the ingredients to his concoction; Jack laughs, and says that there are hundreds of variations of honey/clover/etc, and only he knows the exact proportions. I think Jack was a sailor of some type. Can anyone give me a pointer to this author/story? Thanks very much. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 86 03:19:47 GMT From: cmcl2!chenj@rutgers.rutgers.edu (James M.C. Chen) Subject: looking for a story I need help locating a science fiction short story I read a long time ago. I think it was part of an anthology, but I'm not positive. I have no idea who wrote it, what the title was, or anything except the story itself. The plot goes something like this. While at a party, the protagonist happens to glance at a stranger who is a sort of mystery figure that the reader is lead to believe is either Lucifer or Prometheus, i.e. some sort of fallen angel possessing supernatural powers. The mystery man has anciently dropped his guard and allowed a mortal to look him in the eye and see his inner self. The effect of that single brief, glimpse drives this poor soul mad. He slowly unravels; beginning to have progressively weirder dreams. The stranger realizes what has happened and, being a benevolent being, tries to help. By carefully guiding the dreams he salvages the man's sanity. I can't remember much of the story, but I do remember some of the dreams which were parodies on traditional science fiction stories. In one, our hero is the last man on the Earth running around a post-nuclear war city looking for relief from an excruciating toothache. He finds the last woman on the Earth. He asks if she's a dentist. She says no, she's something more important, she is the last woman and they are the last couple on Earth and therefore must procreate to repopulate the planet. He asks to borrow her gun, tells her "I wish you were a dentist", and shoots himself. In another dream, the world is in midst of a crisis. He, and he alone, possess the answer that will solve the problem. A beautiful woman invites him to present his solution to her elderly, scientist father and a group of his fellow scientists who eagerly await his words. The crowd outside the building grows restless and the loud shouting can be heard. Our hero is about to deliver his answer, which was something like "Did you ever consider the computer made a mistake and that 2+2=4?" and receive the adulation of the world. Just before he gets his words out, however, a messenger rushes in with a telegram from a famous scientist who couldn't be reached earlier. The telegram has exactly that same message on it. Then a rock is thrown through the window with a piece of paper wrapped around it bearing the same solution. Next, people start coming through the woodwork, all with the same suggestion. Our hero, who never gets to tell his answer, laments the fact. The woman tells him his trouble is that he thinks he's somebody special. Does this ring a bell with anyone? I'd appreciate it as it's been bugging me for a long time now. Jimmy Chen chenj@cmcl2 ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 86 01:44:31 GMT From: mcc-pp!sara@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Sara Blatt) Subject: Re: looking for a story > The plot goes something like this. While at a party, the > protagonist happens to glance at a stranger who is a sort of > mystery figure that the reader is lead to believe is either > Lucifer or Prometheus, i.e. some sort of fallen angel possessing > supernatural powers. The mystery man has anciently dropped his > guard and allowed a mortal to look him in the eye and see his > inner self. The effect of that single brief, glimpse drives this > poor soul mad. He slowly unravels; beginning to have > progressively weirder dreams. > > The stranger realizes what has happened and, being a benevolent > being, tries to help. By carefully guiding the dreams he salvages > the man's sanity. The story is by Alfred Bester, author of The Stars My Destination, The Demolished Man, and several other truly remarkable works. I'm sorry I don't remember the title, but there aren't many anthologies of his works, and they are all well worth reading. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Dec 86 0842-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #418 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 22 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 418 Today's Topics: Films - Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (10 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Dec 86 19:27:56 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald Subject: Re:Paperback survival times This book is likely to last longer...I have a collection counting from the STTMP novelization, and I know I'm not the only one.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue 16 Dec 86 21:59:41-EST From: MATH.K-COLLINS%KLA.WESLYN%Wesleyan.Bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: City on the Edge of Forever In the City on the Edge of Forever, Spock took tricorder readings of the playing of history of the monolith both before and after McCoy jumped through it. Later he compared the two readings to show Kirk the differences: one with Edith Keeler's obituary and one with her meeting with the President. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Dec 86 21:20:56 GMT From: peter@omepd (Peter Auseklis) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV - Damaged Starship. I beg to differ with you my friend, but the starship that was preparing to "rig a sail" was the USS North Dakota. I don't recall hearing the name of the Captain but he was played by an actor named Veejay Armitraj, a gentleman last seen by American movie goers in the James Bond film "Octopussy". He played a secret service operative that assisted Bond while he was in India. The name of his character in Octopussy was incidentally, "Veejay". He is also a lesser known pro tennis. The only reason I knew that he was commanding the USS North Dakota was that I have a glossy that was handed out at the STIV premiere here in Portland, OR. He was listed as "USS North Dakota Captain". ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 86 19:40:10 GMT From: dasys1!cforeman@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charles F. Foreman) Subject: Read the book (was: Star Trek IV review) vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) writes: > cforeman@dasys1.UUCP (Charles F. Foreman) writes: >> All right, I'll admit you can probably have more fun >>speculating about why the probe was destroying Earth than by doing >>something boring like reading the book and getting a definative >>answer. But that's like trying to use a complex computer system >>without reading the manual because "boo, hiss" the system is the >>system and the manual is the manual. You know what someone on the >>net would say on comp.unix if you asked questions like this >>without reading the manual? They'd say RTFM (read the f**king >>manual). Well, I say RTFB! > > There are two interesting questions here. > > 1) Is the movie/book computer/manual analogy a good one? I do not > think so: a) When you buy a computer, you get the manuals. When > you buy a movie ticket (or rent the tape), nobody throws in the > book. Perhaps "manual" was not the proper wording.. I should have said "technical manual" which is not often included with systems but is needed for people who want a more detailed look at the hardware/software. > b) many great movies have been made based on books, that didn't > require you to read the book. Yes, that is very true. And ST IV is one of those movies. I think that the movie does a satisfactory job of relaying all of the facts relevant to the plot. If you want more detail, read the book (just as you would read your technical manual if you wanted to know what the operating system was doing when you clicked your mouse.) > c) I think movies tell stories. I agree. > d) The paperback is not likely to survive as long as the movie. You mean just like the technical manual? > 2) Do good computer systems require manuals to operate? My > Macintosh doesn't. No, the Macintosh probably doesn't. But then, it's not a good computer system. \:-) As far as technical manuals go, the Mac needs one more than just about any other system due to its extremely complicated software. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Dec 86 18:37:35 GMT From: bright@dataio.Data-IO.COM (Walter Bright) Subject: Star Trek IV How does the Bounty pick up whale songs from outer space? I didn't know whales had radio transmitters. Scotty asks the plastics man to figure out how thick the plastic would have to be to withstand the pressure of 60,000(?) gallons of water on a panel x by y. The man says 'that's easy, 6 inches'. The problem as stated only makes sense if the water formed a column positioned directly over the plastic panel, but the panels clearly formed the wall of the aquarium, not the floor. As anyone who analyzes dams knows, the quantity of water behind the dam is irrelevant, it is the depth of the water that determines the strength required of the dam. Also, additional strength would have to be there to allow for acceleration loads (which does depend on the quantity of water). In other words, Scotty needed to give the plastics man a more specific load distribution in order to get a reasonable answer. I lost my faith in Scotty... In Jules Verne's book 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, if you work through the figures given about the submarine, you will find that they are consistent with each other and with constants out of physics books. Why do people who write screenplays regard it as beneath their diginity to pass the script by a physicist consultant? People doing historical movies usually check the facts first. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Dec 86 10:40:58 GMT From: hoptoad!tim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: Read the book (was: Star Trek IV review) cforeman@dasys1.UUCP (Charles F. Foreman) writes: > All right, I'll admit you can probably have more fun >speculating about why the probe was destroying Earth than by doing >something boring like reading the book and getting a definative >answer. But that's like trying to use a complex computer system >without reading the manual because "boo, hiss" the system is the >system and the manual is the manual. You know what someone on the >net would say on comp.unix if you asked questions like this without >reading the manual? They'd say RTFM (read the f**king manual). >Well, I say RTFB! And then threw worse nonsense after bad with this: >Yes, that is very true. And ST IV is one of those movies. I think >that the movie does a satisfactory job of relaying all of the facts >relevant to the plot. If you want more detail, read the book (just >as you would read your technical manual if you wanted to know what >the operating system was doing when you clicked your mouse.) Charles, Charles, Charles. Are you really that far out of touch with reality? I've already said this, but it didn't seem to sink in: There are no *facts* involved. The movie was a piece of *fiction*. Nothing even remotely resembling the events in the book or the movie ever happened, or ever will happen. An OS manual is a piece of *non-fiction*: it gives a set of facts based in reality, describing the behavior of the OS. Fiction describes non-factual events; non-fiction describes factual events. (Gosh! Really? You are indeed wise, effendi.) The book no more gives the *facts* about what happened (which do not exist!) than does the movie. They are both *stories*. Got that? Now I'll try not to burst your brain with this next astounding revelation, which would strain many of the most intelligent minds in the second grade: They are *different* stories. They are in different media, they cannot be experienced simultaneously, they relate different events, they have different moods and plots and dialogue. There are similarities between them, but that doesn't change the two salient points, which are, first, that there are no "facts" about what happened, and second, that the two stories are separate. There are no definitive answers beyond those given by each story about itself. The book may give a more complete plot than the movie. Great, that means the book did not suffer the movie's plot flaws. But that doesn't change the fact that THE MOVIE did not offer any rationale for the existence or approach or actions of the alien craft. I wouldn't bother trying to get this through, but this is hardly the first time an error of this type has appeared on sf-lovers: this case provides a particularly glaring example, and pointing out the flaw in it may help to discourage the same error being made again. (Such optimism in one so cynical!) The usual form this error takes here is explaining away a failure of plot or setting by coming up with a technical or at least self-consistent excuse for it which has nothing to do with the plot or setting as presented in the story. This is making the same confusion of fact and fiction. I remember this happening in some of the discussion of Brainstorm, and a host of other examples are fluttering just beyond the grasp of memory. I could go on, but I'd just be repeating the obvious. But then, this whole article seems rather that way to me. My apologies to others who already understand that fictional stories are not made up of facts. Tim Maroney {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Wed 17 Dec 86 09:54:20-CST From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: ST-IV metablooper vnend@ukecc.uky.csnet (D. W. James) writes: > A bigger meta-blooper is the fact (if you want to stick with it > being OUR Earth that they are visiting) is that no-one had heard > of Star Trek and the UFP or phasors or... . I don't really count > this as a bug, but it does bother me when I see the parts with > them walking in down town SF. That's a great idea! I can see a scene where some teenage kids with trekkie buttons say "Hey, aren't you Captain Kirk?" ("No, I'm *Admiral* Kirk...") Why stop there, as long as it's the real world, though? They could also have a scene with someone saying "Aren't you William Shatner?", or even someone saying "Aren't you T.J. Hooker?" to really mix things up... At the Institute when Spock said "To hunt a species to extinction is not logical," I half expected Gillian to retort, "Jeez, you sound like Mr. Spock!" Think how different the film would have been if they'd used this metablooper. The crew could have put the whalequest on the back burner as they try to figure out how in the hell everyone in the 1980s knows all about the adventures of the Enterprise centuries later! But it was still a fun movie. They could have avoided this metablooper and at the same time cashed in on a recent profitable movie fad by having the crew travel back to the 1950s instead of 1980s... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 86 08:20 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Star Trek IV >>but it does bother me when I see the parts with them walking in >>downtown SF. From what I've heard, they really DID walk around downtown SF in full uniform and no one DID pay any attention. That's why they picked SF in the first place. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 17 Dec 86 08:22:04 PST (Wednesday) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV From: Gellerman.osbunorth@Xerox.COM Personally, I find it hard to believe that nearly every single person has found this movie to be a wonderful movie -- better than STII:TWOK. The Wrath of Kahn was such a classic movie, and this cannot compare. Let me qualify by saying, I liked STIV, and I'm glad I saw it. I just can't understand how all the long-time fans out there think it's better than STII. I thought it lacked for the following reasons: 1) The best Star Trek TV episodes were when Kirk was outsmarting the opposition and using all his knowledge of being a Starship captain. The one where the Enterprise is pitted against the Romulan vessel with the cloaking device and they're playing a cat-and-mouse type of game immediately comes to mind. Another is when the landing party begins to age, and some Star Fleet guy takes control away from senile Kirk. Then Kirk comes back to save the day at the last minute. Of course, TWOK is very much the same where Kirk is continually outsmarting Kahn with the great lines: "Hours may seem like days..." and "Here it comes, Kahn" etc. STIV really had none of this. They had a mission, they performed it. And Kirk really didn't outsmart anybody and show his greatness as a Starship captain at all. 2) The other thing was that the crew seemed almost too care-free about everything. Yes, I know it was supposed to be a comedy. But with all the laughing and joking going on, you couldn't tell they were in any kind of dire mission. It just seems that they were kind of acting out of character. That's fine if they're trying to change the characters a little; I'm just saying I don't know if I like it. I mean, seeing Spock joke around with Kirk is pretty funny ("Do you like Italian?"), but just not in the character that I'm used to and that I looked forward to. This is all aside from the fact, that although the story is wonderful and nice, it IS a little weak. So far, I guess I'm only the second person in the world not to be completely thrilled with this movie. Doesn't ANYONE out there agree with some of the these points? scott ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 86 12:20:45 cst From: Brett Slocum <hi-csc!slocum@umn-cs> Subject: Re: Star Trek IV The original Yorktown was shown in the M5 computer episode of the series. It was severely damaged in the Wargames. Perhaps it was damaged enough to be decommissioned, and the Yorktown mentioned in ST IV was a Reliant class remake. Purely speculation. Also, in regards to Commander Chapel, she had a brief scene in the Star Fleet command post that was being destroyed by the storm. She said something about needing power for the hospital or something like that. She only had about 2 lines. As far as Uhura picking up whalesong in space, I seem to remember that the whales were supposed to be broadcasting to the aliens, and that's why the probe was sent. The whalesong stopped. That was all mentioned in the movie. As far as the comments about needing to read the book to have some things explained, take 2001 as an example. To get a good grasp for what really happened in the movie, I read the book and saw the movie about 2-3 times each. An I felt that 2010 was a weaker movie and book BECAUSE everything was explained in a nice neat package. The mystery is important to my enjoyment of 2001. In regards to ST IV, I felt that it wasn't necessary to know exactly what was going on, because the characters didn't know either. I enjoyed ST IV immensely, but I enjoyed TWoK better. My ratings would go something like this (-4 to +4): ST:TMP = -2, ST II:TWoK = +4, ST III:TSfS = +2, ST IV: TVH = +3. As a whole, I think that the Star Trek trilogy (movies 2 thru 4) kept true to themselves and were better than the Star Wars trilogy. Each movie stood on its own better, and the whole was more satisfying. The Empire Strikes Back depended too much on the first movie, and didn't really end, where The Search for Spock had a real ending, though it still strongly depended on Khan. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Dec 86 0857-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #419 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 22 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 419 Today's Topics: Books - Niven (12 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Dec 86 09:18:53 -0500 From: Sheri L. Smith <ltsmith@mitre.ARPA> Subject: theories of alternate worlds (was Ringworld) No one has mentioned Niven's "The Integral Trees". I found this book both fascinating and thought provoking from a biological/technical point of view. The "planet" is a gas torus, and having no (habitable) solid matter, has effectively no gravity. Centrifugal force at the ends of the integral sign (yes, as in calculus) shaped "tree" where our heroes originate produces a weak force ("tide") which makes life a bit easier for the inhabitants. I thoroughly enjoyed the speculations on how life would evolve under no- gravity conditions, what the animals would develop for controlled motive ability, the ways in which plant life would reproduce and spread, etc. The story line itself is pretty good, but I won't spoil it for you! A good read, and interesting twice...three times, if I can get my copy back from the person who borrowed it.... Sheri ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 86 16:58:52 GMT From: unisoft!jef@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jef Poskanzer) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? lrj@batcomputer.UUCP (Lewis R. Jansen) writes: >jef@unisoft.UUCP (Jef Poskanzer) writes: >>General Products hulls are held together by the strong nuclear >>force, not by electrostatic forces. > > Hmm... I seem to recall that the General Products hulls gained >their strength from the fact that the entire hull was a single >molecule... Here's the exact quote from the Puppeteer at the end of "Flatlander": ``A General Products hull is an artificially generated molecule with interatomic bonds artificially strengthened by a small power plant. The strengthened molecular bonds are proof against any kind of impact, and heat into the hundreds of thousands of degrees. But when enough of the atoms had been obliterated by antimatter explosions, the molecule naturally fell apart.'' I must admit that I mis-remembered this. But I had a reason: at the time I originally read it, over fifteen years ago (can it be that long?), I said to myself "That's bullshit! The Puppeteer is lying!" For one thing, "hundreds of thousands of degrees" is a cool breeze compared to the temperatures involved in impacts at interstellar speeds. For another thing, the GP hulls were one of the Puppeteers' most jealously guarded secrets. I doubt they'd give away *any* true information about them. But, you'll have to believe what you want to believe. Jef Poskanzer UniSoft Systems, Berkeley unisoft!jef@ucbvax.Berkeley.Edu ...ucbvax!unisoft!jef (415)644-1230 ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 86 04:00:27 GMT From: watnot!ccplumb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Colin Plumb) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) writes: > It seems to me that the things that surprised them so much about >_scrith_ were its malleability (it could bend, while the General >Products hulls cannot) and its semipermeability to neutrons. A minor flame... Scrith passes ~40% of the *neutrinos* that impinge on it. Neutrons get stopped dead. Colin Plumb ccplumb@watnot.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 86 18:34:57 GMT From: enea!peno@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Pekka Nousiainen) Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? >Does anybody know what would happen if you fired a slaver >disintegrator at a General Products hull? Evidently nothing, if you recall how they reached the Needle in Ringworld Engineers at the beginning of "1.5x10exp12". mcvax!enea!peno ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 86 21:38:22 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: What Larry Niven doesn't know about mathematics dave@viper.UUCP (David Messer) writes: > Niven did make some other rather silly errors in the book however. > For instance, he neglected the effect of air drag when he assumed > that the objects in the cloud would behave like objects orbiting > in a vacuum. Say WHAT? He "neglected the effect of air drag"? He "assumed that the objects in the cloud would behave like objects orbiting in vacuum"? In what way? The "integral trees" have the shape they do because of these atmospheric effects! You folks DID read this book before dumping on it, right? It is not that I particularly dote on Niven, nor do I think his works are by any means free of "rather silly errors". It's just that you folks seem to be picking on the places where he DIDN'T make errors. Gimme a break, at least if you want to pick nits, you might as well pick real nits, eh? Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 86 21:40:12 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: What Larry Niven doesn't know about mathematics (spoiler) >>>What is more interesting is that his sequence could have gone >>>either way! >> As I recall, the demon was made to disappear by drawing the >> pentacle on its belly. I don't think the series could diverge >> because it wouldn't have been possible to draw a larger penticle >> than the size of the demon. > I am saying that process could have worked as the converse of the > process Niven described. I assume this means that given the clues up to the time of the actual springing of the trap, you can't deduce the direction the demon will take to resolve the dilemma. I disagree, somewhat. As I recall the story, Niven makes the point that the demon's algorithm to deal with a redrawn pentacle is: 1) seek pentacle 2) adjust demon size and position to fit in the redrawn pentacle 3) rematerialize demon For the demon to grow as leeper described, the adjustment step (step 2) must be to adjust the demon POSITION but the PENTACLE size to accomodate the old demon, and this was fairly clearly not what the demon claimed to do. The demon claimed to adjust the demon's size to fit the pentacle, not the reverse. So, while it is true that > It has already been established that the pentacle can change size > during the process, it was also previously established that this pentacle size change was NOT how the demon dealt with redrawn pentacles. Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 86 21:42:01 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: What Larry Niven doesn't know about mathematics > jao@valid.UUCP (John Oswalt) > Larry Niven, based on past experience, I have very little > tolerance for. The only reason I gave The Integral Trees any > chance at all is because I read (or at least start to read) > everything in Analog. [...] I do have respect for Niven as a > writer. It's just that when he hasn't got Jerry Pournelle around > to correct him, he makes mistakes which spoil the stories for me. > The argument "so he makes mistakes, it's still a good story" isn't > good enough: there is simply too much other good stuff to read to > waste time on flawed stories. Oh, foo. Don't listen to 'im, folks. Here is a person who is holding up Analog as a good source of "hard sf" stories, and claiming that Niven doesn't measure up. Rubbish. Niven is as "error free" as 90 percent of the stuff in Analog, as far as I can see. And Pournelle has unexplained bolonium and unobtanium, just like Niven does. For example, the "Alderson Drive" must simply be taken on faith and its implications for relativity seem rather poorly worked out; some of the points about the Moties capabilities seem particularly silly, and so on. For the most part, Pournelle makes fewer errors of extrapolation than Niven because he makes fewer extrapolations. When and where he gets as wild as Niven, he generally gets as silly as Niven. Not that I object to anybody finding Niven intolerable. No, I merely object to any implication that this is due to some significant objective criterion. Saying "I don't like the kind of mistakes Niven makes" is fine with me. Saying "Niven makes horrible mistakes and others don't" is just sneaking in a taste issue disguised as an objective evaluation. Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 16 Dec 86 08:03 EST From: OCONNOR DENNIS MICHAEL <OCONNORDM@ge-crd.arpa> Subject: Stasis Fields 1. In _World of Ptavs_ the alien had a button sticking out or thru the stasis field. Substitute senesors and computers and whatever for the button and you have a spacecraft with a statis field hull. Only problem : the button eroded off, so the un-stasis-ed area presents an "achilles heel". 2. The _Lying Bastard_ in _Ringworld_ can tell if its safe to turn off by turning off, seeing if it is safe, and then turning back on again. This makes the ship vulnerable for the reaction-time of the threat detector, but it already was during the initial attack anyway. The puppeteers probably used a GPHull to decrease the vulnerability during this period. 3. Stasis fields make excellent walls for fusion reactors. Perfect mirrors, even of plasma, much better than mag-fields. 4. Stasis fields are probably bi-stable : some amount of energy needed to turn them on, but very little to maintain. You might need NO energy to maintain them, but then you need some amount to turn them back off. Probably they can be modelled as a parrallel RC circuit feeding a threshold detector, with the resistor VERY large ( maybe infinite ). Think about this : if a stasis field needs energy to maintain it, where does the energy go ? It isn't radiated by the field. Dennis O'Connor ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 86 10:28:38 EST From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: stasis fields From: vnend@ukecc.uky.csnet (D. W. James) >One of the bugs I have with Ringworld is how did they get the field >around Liar OFF? Wasn't this supposed to be a wink field? i.e., it would run for something like a nanosecond internal time (~hour external) then shut off and see whether whatever had frightened the ship into invoking stasis was still around? Of course, this doesn't work if you've lost all your sensors in the meantime, but even a puppeteer (especially a crazy one) can't think of everything. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Dec 86 08:45:44 PST (Wednesday) From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Niven and Star Trek The animated Star Trek episode, entitled "The Slaver Seapon", was in fact an adapted Known Space story: "The Soft Weapon". They simply replaced the husband and wife team with Sulu and Uhura, with Mr. Spock playing the part of Nessus, the Pierson's Puppeteer of the original story. It was otherwise identical in most respects. Therefore, the Kzin were much the same. Kurt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 86 12:35:59 cst From: Brett Slocum <hi-csc!slocum@umn-cs> Subject: Re: Ringworld > ... "shadow square wire" was very thin and would cut whatever it > wanted ... , while Sinclair stuff needed to be encased in a stasis > field to do so. They are obviously not the same thing. I beg to differ, but if they are not the same thing, they are very close. Only in the variable sword is Sinclair chain encased in stasis. And this is so you have a straight piece of wire, which is easier to control and easier to avoid dismembering yourself, than plain molecule chain. Elsewhere in known space, it is used without stasis, and cuts just like shadow square wire. (Read some other Known Space books). I seem to recall the terms being used interchangably. BTW, as you can tell by its name, Sinclair molecule chain is pretty thin too. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Dec 86 18:50:28 GMT From: sq!msb@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Larry Niven and mathematics and Arthur C. Clarke In regard to the following [bear with me, I've shortened the inclusion, but some of the words are important]: >> [Niven] said, "do you know why there will never be a galactic >> empire? ... ... Because the phone numbers in the transporter >> booths would have to be so long, that nobody could ever dial >> them." He said this in all seriousness. The audience member >> said, "but you could address every square meter of every planet >> surface in the galaxy with just a few dozen digits." Niven >> looked at Jerry Pournelle ... ... and asked, "is that true?" >> Dr. Pournelle looked pretty embarrassed ... as he said "yes." >> "Oh," said Niven. > > I think you're being a bit hard on Niven here. I would think he > meant it in a light hearted way, and just hadn't thought it > through. ... "A few dozen digits" is definitely too much for me. > What would such a galactic phone book weigh anyway? I quite agree with the second poster, and I'd like to support that opinion with the following passage from the essay "Space, the Unconquerable" in "Profiles of the Future" by Arthur C. Clarke. (This is also the book in which you can find Clarke's Laws. Why don't you go and buy a copy?) I am quoting the 1972 revised edition, but from the numbers cited, I suspect this essay may not have been updated since the original edition of 1962. I won't mark it marginally, but everything below the signature below is Clarke. Mark Brader utzoo!sq!msb For the universe has two aspects -- its scale, and its overwhelming, mind-numbing complexity. Having [hypothetically] abolished the first, we are now face-to-face with the second. What we must now try to visualize is not size, but quantity. Most people today are familiar with ... [exponential notation] ... even defense budget totals look modest when expressed as $5.76e9 instead of $5,760,000,000. The number of other suns in our own Galaxy ... is estimated at about 1e11 ... Our present telescopes can observe something like 1e9 other galaxies, and they show no sign of thinning out even at the extreme limit of vision ... let us confine ourselves to those we can see. They must contain a total of about 1e11 times 1e9 stars, or 1e20 stars altogether. One followed by twenty other digits is, of course, a number beyond all understanding. There is no hope of ever coming to grips with it, but there are ways of hinting at its implications. Just now we assumed that the time might come when we could dial ourselves, by some miracle of matter transmission, effortlessly and instantly round the cosmos, as today we call a number in our local exchange. What would the cosmic telephone directory look like if its contents were restricted to suns and it made no effort to list individual planets, still less the millions of places on each planet? The directories for such cities as London and New York are already getting somewhat out of hand, but they list only about a million -- 1e6 -- numbers. The cosmic directory would be 1e14 times bigger, to hold its 1e20 numbers. It would contain more pages than all the books *that have ever been produced since the invention of the printing press*. To continue our fantasy a little further, here is another consequence of twenty-digit telephone numbers. Think of the possibilities of cosmic chaos, if dialing 27945015423811986385 instead of 27945015243811986385 could put you at the wrong end of Creation... This is no trifling example; look well and carefully at those arrays of digits, savoring their weight and meaning, remembering that we may need every one of them to count the total tally of the stars, and even more to number the planets. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Dec 86 0917-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #420 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 22 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 420 Today's Topics: Films - East Coast Humorists (3 msgsg) & 2001 (2 msgs), Television - Twilight Zone & Doctor Who & Starlost (4 msgs), Miscellaneous - Time Travel (6 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Dec 86 01:37:17 GMT From: 6090617@PUCC.BITNET (Robert Wald) Subject: Re: East Coast humorists tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway) writes: >What Nick is responsible for are the Phil A. Delphia, Secret Agent >86 radio plays which were done for the Philadelphia in '86 worldcon >bid. For a while, both Nick and Phil were part of the Zanti >Misfits, a group which did comedy routines at conventions in the >Northeast corridor. Since Phil's moved back to Chicago, the group >now goes under the name of The Gunderson Corporation. If you get a >chance to see them, do so. Particular favorites of mine are Nick >doing a dramatic reading of the Spider-Man cartoon theme, the >selling Star Wars to the movies skit, and the hysterical Sherlock >Holmes skit. Just wanted to mention Nick told a friend and I that a second Phil-A-Delphia tape would be ready by the Boskone convention next February (I think its Feb). The Gunderson Corporation appeared at Philcon and was great. poo-GAH! Rob Wald Princeton University Information Services 6090617@PUCC.BITNET UUCP: ...allegra!psuvax1!PUCC.BITNET!6090617 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 86 16:40:00 EST From: FULIGIN%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Peter E. Lee) Subject: "You say 'Yamato'" The name of Phil Phoglio's collaborator on "You say 'Yamato'" was NICK smith, not Mike Smith. I know Nick reasonably well, and I don't believe he had anything to do with the 'Bambi' shorts. As to getting copies of 'You say', I wish you luck! Neither Nick or Phil have ever, to the best of my knowledge, given out any. I've been told their reasoning before, but it escapes me at the moment... Peter Lee FULIGIN%UMass.Bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 17 Dec 86 02:40:23 GMT From: tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway) Subject: East Coast humorists OK, there are two tapes that have been done up in the "What's Up Tiger Lily" style; You Say Yamoto... and Dr. Who And The Invasion Of The Croutons. These were done by Phil Foglio and Nick (not Mike) Smith. Nick is not responsible for any of the Bambi vs. Godzilla series. Nor is he responsible for the extremely funny Snit of Khan. Snit was written by Peter David, who also wrote Return to Jedi: Address Unknown, and a takeoff on ST III that I don't recall the title of. Peter's probably best known for his work as a writer at Marvel, particularly Spectacular Spider-Man. He's got a novel coming out under his own name early next year, as well as a series of 6 novels based on the Photon game which will appear under the name "David Peters". What Nick is responsible for are the Phil A. Delphia, Secret Agent 86 radio plays which were done for the Philadelphia in '86 worldcon bid. For a while, both Nick and Phil were part of the Zanti Misfits, a group which did comedy routines at conventions in the Northeast corridor. Since Phil's moved back to Chicago, the group now goes under the name of The Gunderson Corporation. If you get a chance to see them, do so. Particular favorites of mine are Nick doing a dramatic reading of the Spider-Man cartoon theme, the selling Star Wars to the movies skit, and the hysterical Sherlock Holmes skit. tyg ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 86 00:42:09 GMT From: fai!ronc@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) Subject: Re: chicken & egg nelson_p@apollo.uucp writes: > RE: Brandon Allbery's comment that 'some scenes don't translate to > movie form too well...example...2001: A Space Odyssey'. > > '2001' was one of those books based on the movie, not the > other way around. I think you should both read "The Making of 2001". The book and the script were written concurrently. Specifically, the ending was re-written several times because Kubrick couldn't film it. (As a side note, Kubrick has said that given enough money he can film anything a writer can describe. I guess he didn't have enough money. :-) I recommend "The Making of 2001". It has several alternate storylines for the book, and includes the original short story the whole idea was based on. Ronald O. Christian Fujitsu America Inc. San Jose, Calif. seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 86 00:19:03 GMT From: cerebus!ronc@rutgers.rutgers.edu (sysadm) Subject: Re: chicken & egg ronc@fai.UUCP (I) write: >I think you should both read "The Making of 2001". Oops, I probably meant "The Lost Worlds of 2001". I have both somewhere... Ronald O. Christian Fujitsu America Inc. San Jose, Calif. seismo!amdahl!fai!cerebus!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!cerebus!ronc ------------------------------ Date: Wed 17 Dec 86 16:17:34-PST From: Tom Galloway <GALLOWAY@VAXA.ISI.EDU> Subject: Twilight Zone cancelled CBS has cancelled Twilight Zone, effective almost immediately. The last show will be aired on Thursday December 18th. Although it was being killed by NBC's Cosby Show in the ratings, it was still ahead of ABC's Our World, although not by that much. TZ and Designing Women (which has been put on hiatus) will be replaced by a one hour adventure/comedy about two reformed con artists who will pull off elaborate sting operations each week. I've heard there are still about 10 hours of filmed footage which has not been shown. I'd guess that there's a possibility that some of this may show up next summer, but I wouldn't count on it. tyg ------------------------------ Date: Fri 19 Dec 86 17:07:48-GMT From: Alan Greig <CCD-ARG%dundee-tech.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK> Subject: Dr Who ***** Colin Baker resigns Colin Baker today announced he would no longer play Dr Who. Filming for the new series begins in March and it seems Baker was only asked to play the Dr in 4 of the 14 episodes. He then stormed out saying he would never play the Dr again. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 86 06:59:57 GMT From: hoptoad!tim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: Help on childhood memory "The Starlost" was created by Harlan Ellison. They ruined his idea so much that he employed the clause in the standard Writers' Guild contract allowing the writer's name to be replaced by a pseudonym, in this case "Cordwainer Bird". There is a very funny essay about the show in the collection *Stalking the Nightmare*, in the third "Scenes from the Real World", called "Somehow, I Don't Think We're in Kansas, Toto". I used to wonder why Ellison kept dealing with television, a medium he hates, but apparently he's always a little short on dough for some reason, and the one good thing about TV work is that it pays outrageously large sums of money. I think he also harbors fantasies of being one of the few people outside PBS to actually accomplish something worthwhile in the medium. Tim Maroney {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 86 01:39:47 GMT From: jsm@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Jon Meltzer) Subject: Re: Help on childhood memory g-willia@gumby.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) writes: >The TV show you are referring to is "The Starlost," created by >Harlan Ellison and ruined by the producers. Harlan has written lots >about the horrible things done to his concept. Ben Bova has a >fictionalized account of the making of the TV show called _The >Starcrossed_ or some such thing. I have read a novelization of the >pilot called _Phoenix Without Ashes: The Starlost #1_, adapted by a >friend of Harlan's and *very good*, which I recommend. (I don't >remember his name, sorry.) I've never seen Ed Bryant novelized "Phoenix Without Ashes". Ellison's script was published a few years ago in a (Roger Elwood?) anthology of SF drama. Another Harlan Ellison roman a clef is Asimov's "Murder at the ABA",which (I believe) may refer to "Starlost". ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 86 17:53:12 GMT From: ted@blia.BLI.COM (Ted Marshall) Subject: Re: Help on childhood memory spock@hope.UUCP (Chris Ambler) writes: > I remember vaguely seeing a SF show as a small child. Can anyone > ID it? 2 people are at the end of a long corrodore in a very > large ship that is (I believe) a derrilict... AAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!! The Starlost!!! Curses on you! I had purged that show from my working memory until you brought it up! AAARRRGGGHHH :-) :-) The show was called "The Starlost". If I remember right, it was carrying a number of civilizations (in individual "domes") away from a disaster. Then there is a massive equipment failure which kills the crew and dooms the ship to drift forever in space unless someone can make it to the control room. etc. The show was developed by Harlan Ellison who then almost nuked the network when he saw what they did to it. And truely, it did stink to high hell! I may have some of this wrong. It has been a long time and I truly had not thought about this show in years. Anyway, just in case, I'd better put on my flame-proof vest. Ted Marshall Britton Lee, Inc. 14600 Winchester Blvd, Los Gatos, Ca 95030 voice:(408)378-7000 uucp: ...!ucbvax!mtxinu!blia!ted ARPA: mtxinu!blia!ted@Berkeley.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 86 15:50:52 GMT From: netxcom!rwhite@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Royal White) Subject: Help on childhood memory (STARLOST) The STARLOST concept was indeed Harlan Ellison's. He insisted the alias Cordwainer Bird be used for the credits because of what the studio did to his story. Look for any Cordwainer Bird stories, not Cordwainer SMITH, they're Harlan's. The show really wasn't that good even though it had an interesting premise and some neat special effects. What's really funny is that Walter Koenig(Chekov) appeared in several episodes later on in the series. This is compounded by the fact that Walter and Harlan are good friends. Walter played an alien trying to salvage the ship for its wealth of scientific and engineering information. The idea being that any race building a ship of such an enormous size and complication had to have made advances in many areas. At one point toward the end of the series the human leader (Devon, I think) and Walter must argue their case before the controllers of the Ark, the computers and robots, for control and ownership of the Ark. Devon won but the computers admitted they were biased. Royal White, Jr. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 86 14:52:02 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU> Subject: Time travel To: rsingle@BBNCC-WASHINGTON.ARPA From: Ron Singleton <rsingle@bbncc-washington.ARPA> >Or on land that will be good for farming or settling when the >(insert appropriate time period's word for pioneers) get there. >You could trade for it, sell it, or get rich farming it. Ah yes. Get rich as a farmer. That shouldn't be too difficult, especially in the distant past. >Invest in things your previous knowledge gives you the advantage >in. Support Henry Ford, ... Most of his business undertakings failed. Do you know which one didn't? Are you sure? >Next subject: What if you were catapulted into the future? Get rich as a historian. Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 86 14:56:45 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU> Subject: Time travel From: lrj@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Lewis R. Jansen) >What would someone pay for an aluminum sword? What would someone >pay for a decent set of aluminum armour? Very little. Steel is a lot stronger. >Would you rather walk around w/ 30 pounds of armour or 10 pounds? 30 pounds, if it would save my life. >I'm not a metallurgist, so I have no real idea of how aluminum >compares to iron in holding an edge, ... Well, have you seen many aluminum razor blades? Keith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 86 22:26:34 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU> Subject: Changing history To: frog!sc@RUTGERS.RUTGERS.EDU From: frog!sc@rutgers.rutgers.edu (STella Calvert) >And _somehow_ (I haven't done the research, so I'm not sure what >the best trick would be) I'd like to ensure that the anti-taxers >won the Whiskey Rebellion. ... Several of L. Neil Smith's books (_The Probability Broach_, _The Nagasaki Vector_, _Tom Paine Maru_, etc) are mostly set in a parallel universe in which the Whiskey Rebellion succeeded. It turns out that the original difference between their world and ours is an extra word in their Declaration of Independance: "...deriving its just power from the unanimous consent of the governed...". The word "unanimous" does not appear in OUR Declaration of Independance. If you have a time machine and really want them to win, a few dozen machine guns should also do the trick. How about giving a copy of Ayn Rand's _Atlas Shrugged_ to each of the founding fathers in 1775? Keith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 86 22:28:48 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU> Subject: Changing history If I had a time machine, I wouldn't go back myself. Instead, I would send a chain smoker, with lots of cigarettes and cigars, to first century Jerusalem. With any kind of luck, his smoking will sufficiently annoy Jesus to get smoking banned in the Bible. Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Dec 86 14:55:30 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU> Subject: Time travel From: sgreen@hera.cs.ucla.edu (Shoshanna Green) >But really, let's face the fact that time-travel stories which >allow the possiblity of altering history are inherently >contradictory. There is NO WAY to get around the paradoxes Not so. There are two main consistent ways to allow time travel: 1) Branching universes Travelling back in time (or sending a message back in time) branches off a new parallel universe. (see Hogan's _The_Proteus_Operation_). 2) Stack-type system Travelling back in time (or sending a message back in time) causes the previous future of that time to be wiped out and start over. (see Hogan's _Thrice_Upon_a_Time_). Keith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 86 19:33 EDT From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire Subject: Time Travel/Star Trek 4 Somebody mentioned that there are no paradoxes associated with moving someone forward in time. Ah, but what about the most often overlooked time travel paradox of all? That being, the fact that time travel violates the first law of thermodynamics, regarding the fact that matter cannot be created or destroyed. If you go back in time 5 minutes and meet yourself, there are now two of you. Where did the extra you get all that matter and energy? So, the principal works no matter how far back you go. It also works in reverse:to whit, bringing someone forward in time also doubles that matter and energy. The only logical explanation I know of is that time occurs in discrete units, like frames in a movie film, and that things can move in and out of their frame. This assumes that every frame of time exists simultaneously, and that is yet another horrid problem. Oh well, just a thought.. Dan Parmenter Hampshire College ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Dec 86 0930-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #421 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 22 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 421 Today's Topics: Books - Niven (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Dec 86 12:41:41 CST From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.edu> Subject: Re: Slavers, tnuctip, etc. (was "Ringworld implausibilities") From D. W. James (vnend@ukecc.uky.csnet) > Remember, at the time of the Slaver Era, Earth was a food planet, > with oceans covered with food algea. Most of the life on Earth > EVOLVED from that algea. But not necessarily the humans! A friend of mine once told me that that was the biggest "hole" in known space: two conflicting stories of the origin of man. The first is the one mentioned above, that life on earth evolved from the algae pool left by the slavers. The second is the one set forth in _Protector_, that man is a mutation of a breeder. But, say I, this is still consistent. The sea-statue slaver (sorry, I can't remember his name) only GUESSED that the ptavvs he encountered on earth where descended from the algea foodstuff. Go back and read it if you doubt me. The idea was very clearly presented as a supposition on his part, because he could think of no other explanation (not knowing about the protectors). Obviously, he must have been wrong, because the story in _Protector_ leaves little room for variation. The other creatures may have evoloved from the algea, but Phsstpok was convinved (based on his knowledge of protector history) that the colonizing protectors had landed on Earth. The sea-statue slaver was only guessing, and was probably wrong. Remember, slavers aren't very intelligent (at least the one example we have seen isn't)---they're just psionically very powerful. William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University <phil@Rice.edu> ------------------------------ Date: Wed 17 Dec 86 10:55:58-PST From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA> Subject: Known Space Books With all this talk about Niven's "Known Space" stories, I'd like to go back and read the books and stories. Can someone list all the books and stories he's written about it (or tell me if such a list already exists somewhere)? Thanks. Steve Dennett dennett@sri-nic ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 86 21:40:13 GMT From: hoptoad!tim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and mathematics and Arthur C. Clarke Niven's remark on transporter booth numbers in a galactic civilization demonstrates a common belief among science fiction writers: that we will still be the same old homines sapientes thousands of years in the future. I'm so sure that by the time we have transporter booths with an interstellar range, we will not have some way of boosting the capabilities of human memory and other forms of cognition. Right. I think that it is more likely we will at least double human intelligence within a century, thanks to molecular engineering, viral surgery, and so forth. Neuro-electric interfacing is not more than thirty years away, you know.... Tim Maroney {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 86 01:28:57 GMT From: desj@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: What Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle don't know about physics throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes: > jao@valid.UUCP (John Oswalt) >> I do have respect for Niven as a writer. It's just that when he >> hasn't got Jerry Pournelle around to correct him, he makes >> mistakes which spoil the stories for me. > >For example, the "Alderson Drive" must simply be taken on faith and >its implications for relativity seem rather poorly worked out; .... Yes indeed. On page 424 of my Pocket paperback (of TMiGE) Renner (by far the most intelligent character in the book; i.e. moderately intelligent) says to find the Alderson point by "project[ing] the path of the Motie ship until it intersects the direct line between the Mote and Murcheson's Eye." There are two ludicrous errors here. First, it appears that Niven and Pournelle think that these Alderson points lie on "direct lines" between stars. Too bad that there is no such thing. Second, they are amazed by the accuracy of Motie navigation. But projecting the course of the ship is just as hard as setting the course in the first place; in fact it is substantially harder, because you need to project the turnover point. If they can't do one, why can they do the other? David desJardins ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 86 01:23:16 GMT From: enea!peno@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Pekka Nousiainen) Subject: Re: What Larry Niven doesn't know about mathematics >>Who would "dial" a phone in the future? What a silly thing to >>say, and >I was disturbed by this at first, because he was obviously >referring to the punching of numbers into a keypad. Then I >realized that *WE* Why dial a *number* at all? When I want to access a file on this machine do I type in a string of device and inode numbers? The only reason we still use telephone numbers is that our computers are too slow. On a related note (this is too silly, my memory must be failing) I seem to recall that if you dialed a non-existent number in a transfer booth you would simply vanish. Such a system without even elementary precautions would solve the population problem in no time. mcvax!enea!peno ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 86 02:22:27 GMT From: landauer%morocco@Sun.COM (Doug Landauer) Subject: Re: dialing around the Universe [ was Niven & math & Clarke ] msb@sq.UUCP (Mark Brader) writes: >>> [Niven] said, "do you know why there will never be a galactic >>> empire? ... ... Because the phone numbers in the transporter >>> booths would have to be so long, that nobody could ever dial >>> them." >> I think you're being a bit hard on Niven here. I would think he >> meant it in a light hearted way, and just hadn't thought it >> through. ... "A few dozen digits" is definitely too much for me. >> What would such a galactic phone book weigh anyway? >I quite agree with the second poster, and I'd like to support that >opinion with the following passage from the essay "Space, the >Unconquerable" in "Profiles of the Future" by Arthur C. Clarke. I >am quoting the 1972 revised edition, but from the numbers cited, I >suspect this essay may not have been updated since the original >edition of 1962. OK, so it appears I have the advantage of 24 years more experience with the progress of computers and technology than Clarke did, or any of the other posters above apparently do. Why why why are we extrapolating without changing AT ALL our idea of the user interface technology??? Are you people the reason why we can expect COBOL to be continuing to plague our descendents thousands of years from now? The ideas of humongous phone books and memorizing (or looking up) billions and billions of 20-digit numbers is as laughably ludicrously limited as is the idea of using a slow, rotary dial to dial them! > ...everything [quoted] below ... is Clarke. > >They must contain a total of about 1e11 times 1e9 stars, or 1e20 >stars altogether. > >Just now we assumed that the time might come when we could dial >ourselves, by some miracle of matter transmission, effortlessly and >instantly round the cosmos, as today we call a number in our local >exchange. What would the cosmic telephone directory look like if >its contents were restricted to suns and it made no effort to list >individual planets, still less the millions of places on each >planet? We'd use domain names, of course. >The directories for such cities as London and New York are already >getting somewhat out of hand, but they list only about a million -- >1e6 -- numbers. The cosmic directory would be 1e14 times bigger, >to hold its 1e20 numbers. It would contain more pages than all the >books *that have ever been produced since the invention of the >printing press*. And they'd all be in computers, with local name servers, distributed throughout the universe. >To continue our fantasy a little further, here is another >consequence of twenty-digit telephone numbers. Think of the >possibilities of cosmic chaos, if dialing 27945015423811986385 >instead of 27945015243811986385 could put you at the wrong end of >Creation... This is no trifling example; look well and carefully >at those arrays of digits, savoring their weight and meaning, >remembering that we may need every one of them to count the total >tally of the stars, and even more to number the planets. We, of course, need never remember any numbers like that anymore. Even today, you can buy telephones to which you can say "call mom" and the phone will make the connection. Just for a rough calculation, let's suppose we can identify 20 consonants and 15 vowels. Now let's see just how many syllables are required to speak in order to uniquely identify any of these 1e20 "places". Let's even restrict the idea of a syllable to one consonant followed by one vowel. Then there are 300 syllables. 300**9 is more than 1.9e22. So you could uniquely identify any star anywhere in the Universe by speaking just nine of these restricted syllables. Of course, the whole idea of having to make such a cosmic encoding is pretty silly. Do any of you have a current world directory, with names and addresses [where applicable] and phone numbers [where applicable] of every other person on this planet? Of course not! You're already using domain names, in the form of local telephone books, and, even more locally, personal telephone books [or computer files]. The set of locations you'd be interested in is still likely to be limited to few enough places that you could write them down on a few hundred pages anyway. And, instead of writing them down or even memorizing nine-syllable nonsense words, what is more likely is that you'll [well, not you -- you'll be dead] be able to have a simple conversation with the transport system, which would narrow down your choice of location until it's the right place. Doug Landauer Sun's Net: landauer@morocco ARPANET: landauer@sun.com UUCP: {amdahl, decwrl, hplabs, seismo, ...}!sun!landauer Phone: 415 691-7655 ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 86 19:01:21 GMT From: sunybcs!twomey@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bill Twomey) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and mathematics and Arthur C. Clarke > Human intelligence will double in the next hundred years. Given a long enough time, I could say that pigs will have wings too. > Neurointerfacing is not more than thirty year away. If you consider the efforts made to give deaf people a semblance of hearing by stimulating aural nerves, we already have it. But, does that mean that intelligence will be increased? Doubt it. It means that very low IQ (morons), and other, normal to high IQ (you and me), people could possibly quickly access scads of information and perform lightning calculations. But is that an increase in intelligence? Nope. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Dec 86 10:24:43 GMT From: hoptoad!tim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Increased Intelligence twomey@gort.UUCP (Bill Twomey) writes: >> Human intelligence will double in the next hundred years. >> Neurointerfacing is not more than thirty years away. >If you consider the efforts made to give deaf people a semblance of >hearing by stimulating aural nerves, we already have it. But, does >that mean that intelligence will be increased? Doubt it. It means >that very low IQ (morons), and other, normal to high IQ (you and >me), people could possibly quickly access scads of information and >perform lightning calculations. But is that an increase in >intelligence? Nope. Thirty years for human neurointerfacing (within the brain rather than at an external sensory level) is a best guess prediction based on the following assumptions, which could be off the mark. (a) Nanotechnology is feasible and will begin to be seriously developed within twenty years. This seems feasible because molecular-scale memory chips are already being prototyped and will probably become real within ten years. (The researchers involved are saying five, so....) (b) Neural network theory is somewhat accurate and can serve as a basis for modelling cognitive function. Again, I am assuming significant progress within twenty years, say simulated sensory registers, pattern matchers (of course, we can already simulate this up to complex cells, but it is a pretty big job on a digital computer, I believe), and short-term and long-term memory stores; as well as what other goodies cognitive psychology discovers in the interim. (c) These being in place, the obvious application is repairing CNS damage using either special-purpose or undifferentiated artificial neural networks spliced into the CNS using nanotechnology. This will first be done with animals, probably cats for the obvious reasons, repairing carefully created lesions at first. I am giving this about ten years in the laboratory before human applications are possible. This assumes that it becomes as widely studied as the cat visual cortex is today. (d) There will be some further quantum leap forward in "transparent" scanning technology, allowing close CNS monitoring. (This may or may not involve nanotechnology). This is assumed within fifty years, because many such leaps have taken place in the last fifty years. Now, what becomes possible when cognitive psychology is augmented with the ability to physically monitor neural activity in a "running" brain? Physiological correlates for high-order cognition can be discovered by a much faster and more replicable method than waiting for fortunate lesions to occur or stimulating convict brains. There will be an explosion of solid results in the area. For the first time, we will be able to understand *some* high-order cognition from neurons all the way to processes (or whatever). Obviously, the human brain as it stands is not the last word in executing high-order cognition. Conscious design, aided by twenty-first-century nanotech supercomputers, should be able to improve on the evolved solutions given a few decades or less. For instance, we would be able to design hypothetical neural architectures with fifty-item short term memory instead of six or seven. Other examples would be rapid learning, parallel conscious deliberation, better memory of recent thoughts, and long term memory with higher speed and/or reliability. These could be built and tested in isolation, then applied to unfortunate victims of "nature's method of lesions" for further development (using the neurointerfacing tech of (c)), and finally made available to the populace as a whole. (An alternative is to try to give a cat the power of speech or some such.) This all relies on serious technological advancement in several fields, but they are fields which are currently advancing at a good rate. I think it is possible we could create super-intelligent humans within fifty years, if progress continues in these fields at a high rate; and I think it is very unlikely that it would take as long as two hundred years for these fields to advance to this point. "Within a century" seems like a reasonable, albeit vague, estimate. "Intelligence" is a vague word. Intelligence is made up of a number of cooperating (and sometimes conflicting) factors which sometimes seem to be reasonably well modeled by cognitive psychology. It is my belief, based on the projections above, that "within a century" it will be possible to improve some of these factors which are of general importance to intelligence as a whole (such as long and short term memory and speed of learning) by significant amounts. I am not merely talking about a direct neural interface to a calculator and a computer network, as you seem to think, but improvements to the high-order cognitive processes themselves. Tim Maroney {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Dec 86 0807-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #422 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 23 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 422 Today's Topics: Books - Kay & Niven & A Story Request, Films - SF Parodies, Miscellaneous - Fanzine Writers (2 msgs) & Creation Convention & Request for Address & Math (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Dec 86 16:10:15 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #415 Cc: "Alexander J. Grossman" <qu9j@vax2.ccs.cornell.edu> >I just finished reading "The Summer Tree" recently and I enjoyed >it. I was just wondering if anybody knew when the next book in the >series was coming out. The second book, "The Wandering Fire" came out close to a year ago. The third, "The Darkest Road" came out in November. Both are still in hardcover only. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Dec 86 15:26:41 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU> Subject: Larry Niven's ignorance To: valid!jao@rutgers.rutgers.edu Cc: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.rutgers.edu From: valid!jao@rutgers.rutgers.edu (John Oswalt) >I seem to recall a gaff of similar magnitude in The Integral Trees. He didn't make the mistake you accuse him of, but he did make an equally severe mistake in that book. When people leave the tree, they soon run into a different bunch of people. But the smoke ring is BIG. Either Niven is saying that different objects would stay in close proximity for centuries, or that the few dozen people who arrived a few centuries earlier could have completely populated the whole smoke ring by then. Either way it's absurd, and it spoiled the book for me. Keith ------------------------------ Date: 21 Dec 86 20:39:37 GMT From: jhunix!ins_adjb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Daniel Jay Barrett) Subject: YASR (Yet Another Story Request) Geez... this must be nostalgia month! Stories that I read years ago keep coming up in conversation. Does anyone remember this one? The short story takes place on a planet which is extremely hot. It is so hot, in fact, that the people can only venture outside of their homes (caves?) for about an hour each day. If they stay out too long, they are burned to a crisp. At night, the temperature drops below the freezing point (of bodies), so they can't go out at night either. The people of the story have an extremely short lifespan -- like 8 days, I think. The protagonist, I recall, discovers a wrecked spaceship on the planet's surface. He realizes that he cannot both explore the ship AND return to his home before the sun fries him. Does this sound familiar? Or was it just the eggnog? :-) ------------------------------ Date: 22 Dec 86 05:05:44 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!ilacqua@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Elizabeth Lear) Subject: Re: Bambi/Godzilla dam@uvacs.UUCP (Dave Montuori) writes: >Does anybody know what other collections "BmG" (or "Bambi's >Revenge") can be found in? Most likely, you can pick it up at your local videoplace on a tape titled "Hardware Wars and Other Farces" (which also includes "Pork Lips Now" and "Closet Encounters of the Nerd Kind"). I originally saw all of these on HBO as fillers ... funny stuff! eliz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 86 09:21 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #402 >Also, does anyone know if that assessment of the fanzine >contributors as being "90 percent" women is true? Oh, at least! And almost all of the editors are female, too. ST fandom as a whole is closer to 50/50, but the really active Trek fans, and especially writers, are almost all female. Yes, it seems odd given the male majority of SF fandom, but it's true. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Dec 86 21:15:02 EST From: Sigel%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Andrew Sigel) Subject: Star Trek fanzine writers While I haven't any empirical studies to quote, I would say that the claim that women constitute 90 percent of the fanzine writing/publishing population in Star Trek fandom is likely to be an accurate one. Please ase that the article in question was referring to Star Trek fandom, as distinct from general fanzine fandom. There, the ratio is heavily male, though probably not as extreme as nine to one. I have no idea what the ratio would be if all fanzine publishers were lumped together in one group. And given the distance that general fanzine fandom tries to keep between it and "media" fandom (e.g., Star Trek, Star Wars), I doubt anyone will be willing to make a determination. Andrew Sigel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 86 19:55:49 EST From: nutto%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Andy Steinberg) Subject: ***---<<<CREATION CONVENTION>>>---*** The new year begins with all the fun of a big CREATION CONVENTION coming back to the Boston, Ma area! CREATION is starting its 17th year of providing big-name quests and entertaining events for fans around the nation. Join us JANUARY 3 and 4, 1987 at THE HYATT REGENCY CAMBRIDGE HOTEL, 575 MEMORIAL DRIVE in CAMBRIDGE, MA. The convention is open from 11AM to 7PM daily. Guest stars: NICHELLE NICHOLS - UHURA of STAR TREK JANET FIELDING - TEGAN of DOCTOR WHO ARTHUR ADAMS - MAVEL COMIC, LONGSHOT & THE X-MEN TONY OLIVER - voice of ROBOTECH's RICK HUNTER Star Trek, Doctor Who, Comic Books, Blake's 7, Robotech, Japanese Animation, and Artwork. Trivia Contest & No Minimum Bid Auction Convention Hotline 1-718-343-0202 ------------------------------ Date: 16 December 1986, 11:26:55 EST From: "Nicholas J. Simicich" <NJS@ibm.com> Subject: Iron Monger Jim's Address Some of my checks were misprinted, and they never made it to my bank to get paid. I wrote a whole book of these checks at Worldcon, and have managed to retrieve all of them except for two that I wrote to Iron Monger Jim, a huckster who frequents conventions in the midwest, I'm told. I'd like to get in touch with him and repay him, but I don't have his address. I wrote to the Atlanta Worldcon (and included a stamped self-addressed envelope) but they never replied. If someone could send me his address, I'd appreciate it. Bitnet/VNET: NJS at YKTVMX Arpa/Csnet: njs@ibm.com UsMail: Nick Simicich 522 N. James St. Peekskill, NY 10566 Phone: (914) 789-7033 or (914) 737-1908. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 86 10:10:55 EST From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) To: valid!jao Subject: Pohl and math [long exposition on mathematic flaws in "The Gold at the Starbow's End"] You're making a basic error yourself. Spaces don't go away; since the number you produce is a product of primes, the absence of a prime as a factor shows that the character represented by that prime is a space (e.g., in Pohl's example the number representing "John lives." (or any longer text beginning with those words) will not be divisible by 11, telling us that the 5th character is a space). wrt to the msg number, I suspect that Pohl (who has done quite a bit of playing with number theory and probably has a reasonable grasp of arithmetic) may have wanted to use multi-stage exponents (e.g., a**(b**c), which would certainly give you gigantic compressions---9**(9**9) is in the range of 10**8 \digits/) and been stumped by the limited typography available in a commercial magazine. (His late partner Cyril Kornbluth has a marvelous line in "Gomez", which begins around an abstruse query in atomic physics from a teen-age immigrant genius, about the riot there would have been in the composing room had the kid's letter not been reworked before it was sent to be typeset.) This doesn't excuse the book (although Doubleday is one of the cheaper hardcover publishers and may have made the same constraints), although in books mistakes in abstruse formulae are often the result of non-technical proofers---cf the attempt at representing ethanol in Joe Haldeman's "The Universe in a Mason Jar" I also think that you're relying much too much on "common sense". The point of the Godel encoding is that it sacrifices efficiency of {en,de}coding for compactness of message---in fact, given that you're allowed a leftover (per Pohl's example) there are probably several possible codes, of increasing compactness and difficulty of discovery, for any large message. If you use exponents of arbitarily many stages (a**(b**(c**(d**...)))) you can dig awkward but huge chunks out of huge numbers. Difficult? Yes. Inconceivable? Well, the whole point of tGatSE is that these people were the subject of an experiment in developing genius---an experiment which succeeded far beyond the dreams of the experimenters (cf THE SHOCKWAVE RIDER on the dangers to small men of attempting to develop tame geniuses). I suspect that the proof of the minimum size needed to encode a message of 10eX digits couldn't be formulated or understood by anyone on this net; I know someone who \might/ be able to do something with this if it were his area (which I don't understand at all, I just know there are maybe a dozen other people in the world who do). Chip Hitchcock ARPA: CJH@CCA.CCA.COM uu: {decvax!linus, seismo!harvard, cbosgd, caip!think}!cca!cjh ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 86 10:22:41 PST (Thursday) Subject: Re: What Frederik Pohl doesn't know about mathematics From: Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM ... Asimov probably does. My memory is a bit vague, but I seem to remember reading an Asimovian description of Skuese (sp???) number. This is the number at which the distrubution of primes changes, or some such equally useless mathematical trivia. He builds up an entire system of notation, and tries to describe just how big this number is. He ends up by saying that it is in the order of: if you define space as being made up of quantum cubes the size of atoms, and you take every 'cube' of space in the entire universe and take the factorial of this number, and use the result as an exponent ... you don't even come close! Then he goes on to try and explain a Super-Skuese number ... I'm sure I have not got the details of his explanation correct, but I remember being totally boggled by it all. Can anyone remember this, or am I making it all up? Hugh PS. I flunked Maths when they started on Calculus, so no rude comments please! ARPA: Hippo.SBDERX@Xerox.COM ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 86 10:53:58 GMT From: ulowell!rickheit@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Erich Rickheit) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and mathematics and Arthur C. Clarke msb@sq.UUCP (Mark Brader) writes: >To continue our fantasy a little further, here is another >consequence of twenty-digit telephone numbers. Think of the >possibilities of cosmic chaos, if dialing 27945015423811986385 >instead of 27945015243811986385 could put you at the wrong end of >Creation... This is no trifling example; look well and carefully >at those arrays of digits, savoring their weight and meaning, >remembering that we may need every one of them to count the total >tally of the stars, and even more to number the planets. I hate to pick (no I don't! :) but last time I looked at a telephone dial, the digits had numbers associated with them. If you dial with characters rather than digits, you can access close to 4e31 different locations. It's easier to memorize something like 'MikesBarAntares' than _any_ number. If you allow thirty characters, part of the address you dial is the name of the system/planet. Alternately, you first dial the operator, say 'Antares information, please,' and then get the local operator to zap you around. This is all sort of academic anyway. What really happens, is, you tell your computer 'I wanna go visit my uncle Joe on Betelgeuse,' and your computer looks in it's database and says 'You mean the rich one or the one with the wife with the big knockers?' and you say, 'the knockers, of course' and boom (or whatever noise a teleporter makes) there you are. That sort of thing is just about current technology. We'll be there in 5,10 years, tops. I don't see, though, what dialing has to do with an empire. The roman and british empires got along fine without having to remember phone numbers. Through most of history, there has been a special occupation, the navigator, to get you from where you are to where you want to go. If you feel people can't handle this, sic a computer on it. Erich Rickheit 85 Gershom Ave, #2 Lowell, MA 01854 UUCP: ...!wanginst!ulowell!rickheit ------------------------------ Date: 21 Dec 86 20:49:36 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@rutgers.rutgers.edu (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and mathematics and Arthur C. Clarke tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >Niven's remark on transporter booth numbers in a galactic >civilization demonstrates a common belief among science fiction >writers: that we will still be the same old homines sapientes >thousands of years in the future. I'm so sure that by the time we >have transporter booths with an interstellar range, we will not >have some way of boosting the capabilities of human memory and >other forms of cognition. Right. I think that it is more likely >we will at least double human intelligence within a century, thanks >to molecular engineering, viral surgery, and so forth. >Neuro-electric interfacing is not more than thirty years away, you >know.... Gee Whiz, Tim - this is one of those subjects that has been explored many times, in many ways in science fiction nominally lacking in any objective literary merit!!! Most science fiction is, after all, food for the inquiring mind, not the critical mind. The big questions is whether such augmentation will have any significant application to the mass population, or on our basic social interactions. Human nature, except for a little gloss, seems not to have changed much over the last 10, 100, 1000... years. George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV phone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 21 Dec 86 17:37:32 GMT From: ubc-cs!manis@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Vincent Manis) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and mathematics and Arthur C. Clarke Eric Rickett discusses the use of alphabetic phone codes for interstellar communication, and suggests phone numbers such as "MikesBarAntares" (I prefer "(Antares)MikesBar", or even "Continent1%MikesBar@Antares"). [Actually, given that Antares is a red giant, I suspect Mike's is a pretty hot place.] But given the difficulty of centralising phone codes, I suspect the address will be something more like Rigel!Procyon!Sirius!Alpha_Centauri_A!Antares!MikesBar (Yes, it does zigzag all over the place, but have you ever looked at a uucp mail path?) That's the reason that I have to dismiss (regretfully) the possibility of an interstellar empire of the Trantor variety. It's all fine to talk about governing several quadrillion people, but the distances (even at FTL speeds) and number of planets would make agreeing on anything almost impossible. One might argue that technology would overcome that (the lack of double entry bookkeeping was one of the factors that severely hurt the Roman empire), but I suspect that fragmentation, rather than the uniformity of any centralised system, would be the order of the day. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Dec 86 0830-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #423 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 23 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 423 Today's Topics: Films - Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (4 msgs), Miscellaneous - Fanzine Writers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Dec 86 13:36:55 EDT From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (John White) Subject: Star Trek IV This is beginning to get as silly as the whole _Aliens_ debates, but here's my two cents, anyway: First, I would like to agree whole-heartedly with the spirit of Mr Bill Kaufman's posting of 11Dec86 (circa 1700 GMT) as presented next to last in the compilation V11N413 (which is shorter than transposing the whole posting, but more confusing). I found few faults with STIV, and none at all with the _probe_, and why it was. What's wrong with taking Spock's hypothesis and running with it? He presented a logical reason for the probe's presence - leave it at that, and stop asking _WHY?_! (As to Uhura being able to hear the whales in space: the probe was beaming modulated energy at the Earth. Why couldn't the whales also broadcast in energy as well as sound? We probably wouldn't be able to detect the energy in this day and age.) To Tom Courtney: I still have my Star Wars books, along with over 2000 other books, including every Star Trek novel (including movie novelizations) that exist so far. Looking at the popularity of Star Trek, it doesn't seem unlikely that the books will be in reprint long after they stop renewing the video of the movie. The books are usually better, anyway. In re: movies vs books. This has been done before (in the aforementioned _Aliens_ debate), but I still think that until the movie moguls realize that the paying public will sit thru a three hour (or longer) movie to see it done right (for example, Dune needed two more hours), we are going to need novelizations to give up what the editor took away, or what the special effects man just couldn't come up with under budget. Whether a movie relys on the book to make sense doesn't make it a bad movie (for example (putting on my dweeb suit), 2001 was a masterpiece, but incomprehensible at the end without the book). Lastly, Nurse (now Commander) Chapel was seen twice, in Starfleet headquarters when it was blacked out under the influence of the probe. One scene had her talking into a headset, requesting more power for the medical units. Another had her and (I think) Janice Rand doing something official-like in a pass-by shot. Now its time to get into my asbestous long-johns and await the dragon-breath..... jl ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 86 03:24:14 GMT From: ucdavis!cccallan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Allan M. McKillop) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV - Damaged Starship. u557296199ea@ucdavis.UUCP writes: >> I beg to differ with you my friend, but the starship that was >> preparing to "rig a sail" was the USS North Dakota. I don't >> recall hearing the name of the Captain but he was played by an >> actor named Veejay Armitraj, a gentleman last seen by American >> movie goers in the James Bond film "Octopussy". He played a >> secret service operative that assisted Bond while he was in >> India. The name of his character in Octopussy was incidentally, >> "Veejay". He is also a lesser known pro tennis. The only reason I >> knew that he was commanding the USS North Dakota was that I have >> a glossy that was handed out at the STIV premiere here in >> Portland, OR. He was listed as "USS North Dakota Captain". > >I beg to differ with you, but it stated in the credits that >Armitraj (sic?), who incidentally was a professional tennis player, >played the captain of the USS *Yorktown*. Once and for all, the man's name is Vijay Amritraj. He _IS_ a professional tennis player (ranked around #50 in the world). He has been doing both acting and playing professional tennis since his role in Octopussy. He has wins over all the top players including Borg, Connors and McEnroe. He has never been in the top 10, but has been close a couple of years. Allan McKillop {ucbvax,lll-crg}!ucdavis!deneb!cccallan (UUCP) ucdavis!deneb!cccallan@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (INTERNET) ammckillop@ucdavis (BITNET) ------------------------------ Date: 17 Dec 86 23:11:11 GMT From: moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (Jeff Meyer) Subject: EXTRA! EXTRA! MAN SOLVES TIME PARADOX in ST IV! Without any psuedo-scientific basis at all, I've come up with why Kirk and the boys didn't mess up the future time-line by bringing sweet Gillian home with them. It also explains how they got through the Gary Seven incident without a scratch (though it doesn't explain how he eventually got the job as Control on THE EQUALIZER): There are two known methods of going into the past in Star Trek: The Guardian and the old Square-Dance-Around-A-Star method. Taking Poetic License firmly in hand, I propose the following rule: going into the past via the star-warp principle "aligns" you with history. You can't change the past, and anything you do was MEANT to happen. If Kirk had planned to go shoot his great-great-great-grandmother while in SF, he would have been run over by BART, shot by a cop, or something else to keep him from his appointed rounds (read: Destiny). Kirk and Spock could never have REALLY changed time in the Capt. Christopher incident or with Gary Seven -- they just thought they could (imagine they were a little nervous after their encounter with The Guardian, which preceded the two warp-time incidents). The Guardian, however, being the product of a technology So Powerful that it is Beyond Our Comprehension (and thus like MAGIC -- Nyah-ah-ah!) can actually change time (or at least change it for the people who wander back). Yeah, there are still problems (like beaming Capt. Christopher back into himself -- I've NEVER figured that one out. Seems like the poor schmoe should have imploded or exploded or whatever, instead of getting amnesia). But I like this one, so I'll keep it. I'll expect my Pulitzer next week, thank you... Jeff Meyer INTERNET: moriarty@tc.fluke.COM ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.EDU Manual UUCP: {uw-beaver,sun,allegra,sb6,lbl-csam}!fluke!moriarty ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 86 13:57:20 PST From: crash!pnet01!mhughes@nosc.ARPA (Mari Hughes) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #416/Time Travel Paradoxes Several people have mentioned that Gillian going to the 23rd Century, "George" and "Gracie" being saved from being turned into perfume and Chekov leaving behind a phaser and communicater are all things that would effect the future. Several reasonable explanations as to why the effects of these things would be minimal have been offered. But NO ONE seems concerned with what I consider to be the MAJOR "no-no" performed by the crew of the Enterprise: don't you think that Scotty showing that Plastics Engineer the formula for "Transparent Alluminum" -- years ahead of it being discovered naturally -- would have a major impact on the future? Scotty tosses out "how do we know this isn't the guy that invented it" but that doesn't seem like a good enough reason to me to take such as risk! Does the book make any further references to this? Oh. As long as we are quibbling about leaving/taking stuff...Don't forget that Kirk sells his glasses to the antiques dealer...with the explanation that he is seeding the future with them so McCoy can buy them again. I wonder if when he gets back to the future, he finds he still has them? This reminds me off a time travel story with a toy car that gets into an infinite "time travel" loop....wish I could remember more of it! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Dec 86 17:45:03 EST From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@prophet.bbn.com> Subject: Star Trek Fanzines--Article from the NY Times (LONG) The following is from the November 16, 1986 Sunday New York Times Book Review someone on SF-LOVERS has mentioned it, I thought others might like to see it. Two warnings: It's pretty long, and I have not been able to refrain from some scattered comments, set off in brackets from the main text. (deleted) [Moderator's Note: This article was too long for one issue. The second part will be in the next digest.] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 23 Dec 86 0836-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #424 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Dec 86 0836-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu> Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #424 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 23 Dec 1986 Volume 11 : Issue 424 Today's Topics: Films - Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (7 msgs), Miscellaneous - Fanzine Writers & Books into Movies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Dec 86 14:44:54 GMT From: sfsup!kumar@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Star Trek IV - Damaged Starship. Allan writes: > Once and for all, the man's name is Vijay Amritraj. He _IS_ a > professional tennis player (ranked around #50 in the world). He > has been doing both acting and playing professional tennis since > his role in Octopussy. For those who are interested, Vijay played a cop from India in the now canned NBC series "The Last Precinct". For those in the NY-NJ area, he now has a role in the Channel 11 sindication "What a Country!" on Saturdays at 6.00pm. Manish Kumar email:ihnp4!attunix!kumar line: (201)-522-5040. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 86 14:49:02 GMT From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV - Damaged Starship. The words were clearly USS Yorktown. I don't remember what the novel said, but there wasn't any doubt about waht was said on screen. Phil Paone paone@topaz.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 86 22:08:17 GMT From: minnie!ihm@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ian Merritt) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV; Constitution vs. Constellation class Not to stir up the dust again (though I am sure it will) the STIV book makes reference to the Constellation class when refering to the Enterprise II. uucp: ihnp4!nrcvax!ihm ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 86 16:35:04 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: EXTRA! EXTRA! MAN PICKS NIT IN TIME PARADOX SOLUTION!! moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (Jeff Meyer) writes: > There are two known methods of going into the past in Star Trek: > The Guardian and the old Square-Dance-Around-A-Star method. C'mon, Moriarty! You should know better! There are at least four known methods. The Guardian, stellar flyby, antimatter implosion, and the "Atoz library" method. Wayne Throop <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 86 21:28:30 GMT From: vnend@ukecc.uky.csnet (D. W. James) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV - Damaged Starship. peter@omepd.UUCP (Peter Auseklis) writes: >I beg to differ with you my friend, but the starship that was >preparing to "rig a sail" was the USS North Dakota. I don't recall >hearing the name of It is really interesting to hear you say that, since the Cmdr. Starfleet says, " Get me the Yorktown." immediately before he appears. Somebody's in error, and since the Yorktown is what it was called in the film my money is on it. UUCP:cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend CSNET:vnend@engr.uky.csnet BITNET:cn0001dj@ukcc.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Dec 86 14:48:08 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU> Subject: Star Trek universe From: sgreen@hera.cs.ucla.edu (Shoshanna Green) >... David Gerrold [was asked] would it be military or civilian? >Gerrold's response was, "Your thinking is locked into military and >civilian. Can't there be another way?" This got a lot of applause. I have noticed that there seem to be no private organizations in the Star Trek universe, only government agencies of various sorts. I find this very depressing. Wouldn't it be nice if the new Enterprise was privately owned and operated? Keith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Dec 86 10:40:48 cst From: ops@ncsc.ARPA (Tharp) Subject: James T. Kirk In the Star Trek episode "The Conscience of the King" Kirk was presented as having survived a planetary holocaust of some type. He was supposed to be able to identify the man responsible for the deaths of millions of people because as a young child Kirk had seen the man . How does this fit into his boyhood on an Iowa farm? Jessie Tharp ops@ncsc ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Dec 86 17:45:03 EST From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@prophet.bbn.com> Subject: Star Trek Fanzines--Article from the NY Times (LONG) [Moderator's Note: This is the second part of the article from the previous digest about fanzine writers.] (deleted) [reproduced without permission from the New York Times of 11/16/86] ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 86 01:54:25 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Movies vs. novelizations thereof ted@blia.BLI.COM (Ted Marshall) writes: >vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) writes: >> Boo, hiss. The book is the book, and the movie is the movie. If >> one is needed for the other to make sense, then someone fell down >> on the job. Since the movie >Quite true. Unfortunately, it happens a lot, look back to "Alien". May I point out that some scenes don't translate to movie form too well. (This was the biggest problem with DUNE.) Two examples that should make my point: the final sequences of both 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY and THE BLACK HOLE. Brandon S. Allbery 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 974 9210 before 10:15am or after 8:00 pm ...cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************